[intro music]
[silence]
Em: This is nice.
Christine: It’s, it’s great how we can just be in a room with– and not speak, you know? And just sit in the silence.
Em: Honestly, I really do enjoy that. I’m currently in a house full of people terrified of silence, and so I just– I’m so tired of yapping.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Anyway, let’s do our job. Um, n– [laughs]
Christine: Anyway.
Em: No, I– There– My mom and I are finally at the point where we’re butting heads quite a lot.
Christine: That took a while though. You’ve been there a long time.
Em: Well, I think it’s ’cause we were all so sick, so we were all like away from each other.
Christine: Oh, you were quarantined within your own home, right. Okay, yeah.
Em: Yeah. And now that we’re back in, in each other’s faces, it, it did not take much time at all, but w-we’re doing a–
Christine: Well, and also, we’re all snowed in right now ’cause of that big storm.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So, you’ve been stor– snowed in longer than expected. Yeah.
Em: I was supposed to be home a week ago, and I have two more days here, so.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: I am ready to go home. Um, anyway. I appreciated that little, little, little kiss of silence. That was lovely. Thank you.
Christine: Yeah, I thought– It felt like eon– It felt like it stretched on for, for years. [laughs]
Em: [laughs]
Christine: ’Cause we don’t usually sit in silence, but I thought that was really cathartic those two sec– two and a half seconds, I would say. Um.
Em: It– Absolutely.
Christine: It’s pretty powerful stuff, so.
Em: How– Why, why did you need the silence? What’s going on in your home?
Christine: Um, definitely not silence. Uh, well, you know, while we’re at it, I have this guy with me. This is my drink of choice today.
Em: Mm!
Christine: This is a good old Mezzo Mix.
Em: What is that?
Christine: Uh, I bought it from Jungle Jim’s, and at the bottom here, it says, “Cola kisses orange.”
Em: Oh, that’s– It’s like Romeo and Juliet.
Christine: Yeah, it’s just– It’s actually just as romantic and also just as tragic. Um, and also everybody dies at the end, so.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So, I’m drinking that. It’s a Coke– Col– It’s a German– I think it’s a German drink. It’s a Cola mixed with, uh, with some– Oh, it’s Austrian. Cola and some orange like some orange soda mixed together.
Em: I gathered when they’re, they were kissing. [laughs]
Christine: Well, I, yeah. Okay. But you also said–
Em: The literal exchanging of fluids. Um.
Christine: [laughs] Okay. But you also said something weird. What did you say again?
Em: I don’t know. R– Start from day one, June 3rd, 1992. I’ll, I’ll let you know when the weird part happens. [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] I’m drinking today because… Look at Le– Look at my f– I got my first ever portrait done by Leona.
Em: [gasps] Aww. I bet you’re gonna be beautiful.
Christine: And I’m about to present it to you. Ready? Here it is.
Em: Cue the screams. Wow.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: You know, you know, you’re literally doing the Kermit dance in it. You’re literally– Look at that. You’re literally doing your creepy little lean when you dance.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And you’re always wearing black and an amulet. And–
Christine: [laughs]
Em: –you have demonic red eyes. That makes sense.
Christine: No! [laughs] The green part– Actually, the red is my eyebrows, she said.
Em: Oh.
Christine: A– ’Cause I– Of course, I have asked all these questions of the artist.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I have like unprecedented access to the artist. And um, so I asked kinda some questions. I said, “Oh, my eyes are red.” And she said, “Those are your eyebrows.” And I said, “Oh.”
Em: Yeah, you fucking idiot. [laughs]
Christine: You fucking dumbass. [laughs] Okay. And then said, “Oh, I like my belly button.” And she said, “That’s your shirt.” And I said, “The green part?” And she said, “Yeah, the black part is your belly, and the green is your shirt.” [laughs] And I was like, “Why’s my shirt like the size of a nickel? But okay.”
Em: So, it’s like you’re in a tank top that’s too– three sizes too small.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: You know, that’s the most, uh, like realistic three-year-old drawing ever of like, oh, here’s your big grotesque fucking stomach that cannot even fit into the dime-sized shirt I drew for you.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: That’s real. That’s real humbling. [laughs]
Christine: And then she said, “Here are your ears. They’re yellow.” Um–
Em: Mm-hmm. And, they’re, they also disconnected from your face. [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] And I’m wearing purple shoes which is nice.
Em: And the black mustache is real? Is that– I mean, that’s real to me.
Christine: That’s actually a big smile and my nose, so I– You’re– It’s honestly you who looks like a fool now. So.
Em: Oh, I see.
Christine: Um, and then [laughs] she, she drew this nice picture. Um, she’s never drawn like a person before, so I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is very exciting.” And I felt really honored that I was, I was the first one. She then drew Blaise, and for some reason, Blaise got a lot more, um, norm–
Em: Blaise is hot, yeah?
Christine: Blaise– [laughs] normal features! He does have long red hair, which I don’t really know where that came from.
Em: Hmm.
Christine: But, he does also have arms, which if you notice, um, didn’t happen for me. And I asked, you know, “Where are my arms?” She’s like, “You don’t need any.” I was like, “Oh.”
Em: Yeah. I– [laughs]
Christine: “Okay.” [laughs]
Em: There’s nothing– Probably even more so than a sleep paralysis demon, there’s nothing more terrifying than a child with a crayon.
Christine: Okay.
Em: ’Cause what is gonna come out your fucking head.
Christine: It’s so good because have you seen those companies that make stuffies used on your kids’ drawings? And they all look–
Em: Nightmare fuel. But I love it. It’s so smart.
Christine: Deranged. It’s the funniest thing ever. I want to make like a little, uh–
Em: Family. You have to make a family of plushies.
Christine: [laughs] This is so scary. Like this stuffy would be, would be nightmare fuel. So, um, that’s why I drink. I feel like I’ve, you know– Leona’s reached a new milestone where I’m gonna live in some sort of being put in my place over and over again as she paints different variations of me and explains what they are. So, um, it’s been good over here, um, but that’s why I’m drinking my caffeinated, uh, m-makeout soda. Um, what are you up to?
Em: I’m drinking the rest of this water. And then I’ve got–
Christine: Well, that’s the saddest thing I’ve ever seen.
Em: And then I’ve got this water.
Christine: Oh! Wow, I’m so glad you have something after that ’cause it was really dark when you just held up like the–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: This– The last slug of a water bottle.
Em: This one I didn’t finish yesterday, so. Um, I drink, uh, for a few reasons. I drink, one, because five minutes before this I dropped my microphone on hardwood floor, so if it sounds weird, that’s why.
Christine: Oh, you sound really good, maybe that’s why.
Em: Oh, maybe it just knocked it into place finally.
Christine: Maybe just muted you.
Em: Oh, that’s it.
Christine: Just lowered the volume significantly.
Em: Well, if at any point, there’s a weird– If I just start sounding like I’m echoing or something, that’s why. Uh, so I live in paranoia about that. Uh, I got back in touch with some old friends which is lovely. So that’s why I drink this week, um.
Christine: Aw. Like, local ones in Virginia?
Em: Yeah, I– They were people that I’ve thought for years, I’m like "Oh, I should reach out to them.” And then, I finally did, and I– It’s been very nice to get back in touch with them. Uh–
Christine: Did you get, get, uh, lunch at the diner? Is that what people do in Virginia to catch up?
Em: Uh, there are a few diners–
Christine: It feels like you’d go to a little diner and like catch up in, in Virginia for some reason.
Em: I feel like everyone here does have their favorite diner. I have not– Oh, I did actually go to a diner, yeah.
Christine: I knew it.
Em: My, my favorite one– Actually, I went with Allison when she was in town. Um–
Christine: Aww. Another old friend.
Em: Another old friend of yours–
Christine: Of mine. [laughs]
Em: –that I stole away. Um, uh. Oh. The main reason I drink– I forgot to tell you last time we recorded.
Christine: Oh boy.
Em: And it’s, to me, a biggie. I feel like to the, uh, And That’s Why We Drink community, it’s a biggie. Is, uh, I went down to my old college stomping grounds last week.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: Which includes where I used to go ghost hunting.
Christine: And stomping.
Em: I stomped around when I was ghost hunting, for sure.
Christine: [laughs] You stomp around everywhere you go.
Em: I do have a heavy heel, yes.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But, um, I– So I went down to Yorktown where I used to go ghost hunting, and I– It was like– I hadn’t been back since college.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: And so it was my first time like having a memory lane moment, and–
Christine: You guys, that’s over a decade ago for us, if you’re not keeping track or you don’t know what–
Em: Wow. Okay. I’m done talking about it. I wanna just go jump and– [laughs]
Christine: Well, [laughs] oh, come on. Own reality, Em! Come on Own reality.
Em: It, uh, it, it doesn’t f– It doesn’t feel like, uh, um, much farther than ten– It doesn’t feel like five years, but when I hear ten, I go, “Oh, wow. It has been a while.” Um, but so I went down there, and it was, uh, a cathartic moment. Uh, when I left college, I was in a pretty sour spot.
Christine: Mm.
Em: And, uh, I really– I know– I’ve said this before. I really loved college, but not only that, I really loved my college town. It was like the perfect ideal little town to go to college in, and I had so many great memories there. But, then when I left, I left kind of in a hurry, and I didn’t get to appreciate and say goodbye to a lot of stuff. And so it was a, a very nostalgic moment for me.
Christine: Aw.
Em: But, while I was there, I literally went to the old buildings that I used to go ghost hunting in. And, my favorite one that I used to go ghost hunting in all the time has sadly changed ownership and kind of to an asshole like um–
Christine: Oh, no.
Em: I’m not gonna say the location ’cause I don’t feel like, you know, ratting people out totally. But, the guy that worked there was like not friendly. He was like definitely the manager there, and I–
Christine: W-what kind of business was it? W– Is it like–?
Em: It was like, like a food, coffee shop kind of place.
Christine: Oh, okay, okay. So it’s not like you went to a ghost hunting establishment, like it was like a building that you used to ghost hunt in, but it’s a different kind of business.
Em: No. I used to ghost hunt there every week for years. Yeah, like I was very–
Christine: But it’s not– But the building is not like where the ghost hunting group i-is located or something.
Em: Right, right.
Christine: Like he’s not the manager of a ghost hunting thing.
Em: No, no.
Christine: He’s like– Okay, got it, got it, got it.
Em: It used to be something else, and we had permission to go ghost hunting there every week. It has–
Christine: Got it. Okay. So he’s like, “You no longer have that permission.” [laughs]
Em: Well, I didn’t even wanna ask that. I didn’t even really– I actually wasn’t even gonna say anything. Um, but, when I was there, I just asked like an employee who was not him. He was just like a typically mansplainy guy, that’s all.
Christine: Mm.
Em: Like, he didn’t do anything further than that, but I was just like, “This is not your moment. I’m–”
Christine: Not good vibes.
Em: “I’m having a memory lane moment, and now–“
Christine: Now you’re ruining it.
Em: “–a man is here.” You know?
Christine: Now a man came in. [laughs] God dammit.
Em: [laughs] It’s like why are you here? You’re r-ruining my time.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: But, uh, so I asked one of the employees. I was like, “Oh, when did you guys change like– H-how long has this business been here?” That’s all I wanted to know. I was like how long s– has it been since I’ve been back. And, um, he just jumped in, and he went, “Oh, it’s been closed for, for 15 years.” And I was like, “No.” He said, “Before we got here. it’s been closed forever.” And I was like, “No, it hasn't. I literally used to come here all the time.”
Christine: What a weirdo.
Em: He just wanted to like say something, I guess. And he was like, “No, it’s been like– It was like ten years since we moved in.” And I did the math, and I was like, “I literally was here back then. Like what are you t–?” But so, I said something where I just kind of wanted to shut it down. I was like, “Oh, really? ’Cause I was here ten years ago. I used to be here every week.” And he went, “No, no, no. You’re wrong.” And I went, “[laughs] Okay, fine, buddy.”
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, and so just to like, I don’t know– I w– I was being a little petty, I guess. I don’t how petty it really sounded, but to me it felt like a real humdinger of a line.
Christine: Yeah, I can’t wait.
Em: And I was like, “Oh, is this place still haunted by that little girl?” [laughs]
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And he went–
Christine: That little girl who hates mansplainers?
Em: [laughs] Yeah, he– You know what, by the way? She did fucking hate men. So, uh.
Christine: Y-yeah, no wonder.
Em: And, uh, he said, “Oh, yeah. It’s still haunted.” And I went, “Yeah, I used to be really good friends with the ghosts here, so, uh.” And then, I just kinda left. Like I– It, it didn’t sound like anything to him probably, but to me, I was like, “I hope the little girl heard me say that. And I hope she knows to sic him!”
Christine: Honestly, I promise you, she did.
Em: Yeah. That’s the goal. I did say hi to her. I went, “Just so you know, I haven’t forgotten you. I still think about you all the time. And because of you, I still work with ghosts in a different way.”
Christine: Wait, that’s nice. No wonder he was like, “Get out of my restaurant. You’re scaring the customers.” [laughs]
Em: No, I, I went right up there, and I, I went right back to the exact room where all the stuff used to happen, and I, I just gave it a little moment. I said, “Just so you know, I hope to be back. But, you know, I haven’t forgotten you and still think about you. And, we, we had a really nice relationship together.” I really like that ghost. She was really lovely. So.
Christine: Do you think she stayed there?
Em: I don’t know. I don’t know.
Christine: Did you feel like she was there? When you were talking?
Em: I– I, uh, I like to think that I felt something. I might’ve just been like placebo effecting myself. Um, but I felt like someone was there.
Christine: Did you, did you tell her to stay there? Or did you–?
Em: I did my goodbye, goodbye, goodbye as I was leaving.
Christine: You did, okay. I was like, “Maybe she came with you.” [laughs]
Em: [laughs] If she did, I, I have made it clear I’m not interested in that. But, anyway, it was just like a bittersweet moment ’cause I used to go there all the time. And I was hoping to actually get my usual order and everything, and then I showed up and it was a different business and– Anyway.
Christine: That is a bummer.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But I– It was, it was lovely.
Christine: It’s a disappointment.
Em: And I thought it– To me, it’s, um– It was also my version, I guess, of a ghost update for everybody, so.
Christine: I love a ghost update. Did– Ca– Are we allowed to know the girl’s name? Did she have a name that you know?
Em: I don’t know if she had a name. All I remember from her, which I did say her like stats to her, ’cause I was like, “In case you don’t remember me, I just want to tell you what I know about you. And I haven’t forgotten.” Um, but she–
Christine: [laughs] In case, you don’t remember me, let me tell you all about you.
Em: [laughs] Let me just be like an old like I-Italian mobster and like recite your own life history to you.
Christine: Just gonna re– All your children’s names and ages, yeah.
[laughs]
Em: No, but my memory is that we– And we did– I mean, I was there for years. We would ask the same questions over and over again. Um, consistently we got that there was a boy and a girl there. The boy was around 14. The girl was around 12. They were either brother and sister, or they were such close friends that they were like siblings.
Christine: Aww.
Em: Um, they– There was, uh– We think the boy died in the closet.
Christine: Oh, jeez.
Em: Um, not in a, in a– the usual way someone might die in a closet.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But, um, it– This was back in like the– during the Revolutionary War era. And the– What we’ve gathered is that we think he was looking out the window.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: And he realized that troops were coming into town. He got scared. They came into the house, and they found him in the closet and–
Christine: Oh my god.
Em: That’s, that’s the, the story that we were able to kinda piece together. I don’t know how true it is. Um, and the girl is the most famous one. Everyone apparently has a story with the girl.
Christine: Oh, I see.
Em: She’s the one who I heard like the giggling and the footsteps. And so–
Christine: And you taught her about cook– Ice cream? Cookies?
Em: I did. And I taught, uh– That was the house where I taught the ghosts about the Internet. Um.
Christine: That’s right, yeah. And cellphones. [laughs]
Em: And cellphones. Yeah, that was where they used my cellphone. Anyway. Lot of good memories there, so it was–
Christine: Wow, that’s like what I ima– Like every time you talk about your ghost hunting days, I picture that room. I mean I don’t know what it looks like, but I have a picture in my head of like the room where you talked to the girl ghost and all that.
Em: I took a picture for you, actually.
Christine: [gasps] You should send it to me. Maybe I should draw a picture of what I saw.
Em: Oh, that’d be great! Hold on, so I won’t send it to you yet, but let me know when you, when you’re–
Christine: I don’t know how to draw a picture.
Em: Ask Leona.
Christine: Oh my god! Done. Is this her? Is this the girl?
Em: Th– A– That’s actually– Wait a minute. I think–
Christine: Wait, she has red eyebrows? [laughs]
Em: [laughs] I think your kid automatically writes, and I think, um–
Christine: [laughs] Automatically draws.
Em: [laughs] Automatically draws, she nailed it. Anyway, so I was, I was happy to be there. It, it was a lot of closure for me.
Christine: Aww.
Em: But, it was also like, oh, it had to be ruined by a man, you know.
Christine: Yeah, yeah.
Em: But, it was nice to be back in a room that I’ve just thought about forever. So, that’s why I drink.
Christine: That’s kinda nice. I hope she was happy to see you. I’m sure she was if she’s still there.
Em: I hope so. Her and I never had beef. I also went to the spot where I got detained by the police, um.
Christine: Oh, that’s, that’s exc– That’s thrilling. Did you tell the guy that? “Oh, don’t worry. I just got arrested here a few times.”
Em: N- “You don’t even want me here. I’m a bad boy. You better look out.”
Christine: Yeah, I’m bad. Watch out.
Em: You better– I’m so bad. Not only do the–
Christine: I’m comin’ for your town.
Em: –can I summon the ghosts, but I am a bad boy, so. Look out.
Christine: Yeah, and I know the names of all your children and their ages ’cause I’m also in, in the mob. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Anyway, uh, I, I hope he’s, uh, you know. I guess– I don’t know. I hope he’s getting a little haunted today. That’s all I hope for him.
Christine: I do, too. Maybe like just moving his stuff around or making his coffee too cold, you know?
Em: I hope, I hope she pulls a Casper and like ties his shoes together when he mansplains again, you know. Something like that.
Christine: There you go. Mm-hmm.
Em: Anyway, uh, and I drink my water. So. Is that it? Do we just go into this now? [laughs]
Christine: That– I think that, I think that’s it. I think we’ve caught up each other and the world.
Em: Great.
Christine: And it’s time to learn something new.
[glass clinks - start of ad break]
[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]
[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]
Em: Okay, um, I’m very excited about this. This is like– I actually was intentionally trying to find a story with some like short, like short information today. Of course, that’s when I finally find one that’s long.
Christine: Yes, that’s how this goes always. Yep.
Em: Mm-hmm. So, we’re gonna– I, I assume we’re gonna try to rapid-fire here. Uh, but this is the May-Stringer House.
Christine: Mm.
Em: And it is in Florida.
Christine: Mm-kay. May-Stri–
Em: Where not a single other crazy thing has ever happened.
Christine: No. Certainly not. It’s very calm down there. Very normal.
Em: Uh [laughs], this is in Brooksville, Florida. And–
Christine: First of all, that does not sound like the name of a place in Florida. Immediately, I’m like, that’s–
Em: No, I, I should be saying, “This, this is from Wackytown, Florida.”
Christine: Seriously, Brooksville feels like Idaho. You know? Florida sh– has to be something like Tortoise– Tortoise Shell Bay or some bullshit. I was just down there, and I’m clearly totally over it.
Em: You’re missing Tortoise Shell Bay, Wackytown, Florida.
Christine: I’m so missing– I actually did find a tortoi– Well, I didn’t. My dad brought us to a tortoise burrow, and we saw them– the mommy come out.
Em: Aww.
Christine: And it was really cute. And then, she saw us and was like, “Get the fuck away from us.” And we were like, “Sorry.”
Em: It’s not called Human Bay.
Christine: Literally, she was like, “Get th– Like how many times do I have to tell you?” Um.
Em: “Bernie, get outta here again.”
Christine: “Bernie, stop bringing your weird friends and family over to my burrow.” [laughs]
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Anyway, I did see a tortoise, but, uh, that’s about all the excitement to be had there for me.
Em: Good to know. Well, it’s ’cause you missed Brooksville.
Christine: I missed Brooksville.
Em: And, uh, let’s see. This house is on the National Register of Historic Places. I feel like I always have to say that for some reason.
Christine: Where, where is Brooks–? Is that like–? What part of Florida? Do you know? Or like is there–
Em: You’re asking me things I just don’t know.
Christine: Oh my god, you don’t even know this. Okay, Brook– What is it?
Em: Really thought we were just gonna– I thought Florida was a good enough geographic point.
Christine: I mean, no. ’Cause there’s also like Miami, but then there’s like–
Em: I think it’s near, um, it’s like a Henrico County. Uh, maybe it’s near Tampa? I saw– Like a lot of my sources were Tampa news outlets. Maybe [unintelligible] let me look.
Christine: Okay, wow. Uh, wow. Uh, Brooksville’s a city and county seat of Hernando County, Florida.
Em: Hernando County, not Henrico.
Christine: Um, [lip trill] okay, this is apparently a much bigger town than I thought. Maybe?
Em: Hm.
Christine: Let’s see. It’s– Oh, you’re right, Em. So, like Tampa area but like further north.
Em: Look at me go. Pulled that right outta my lil butt.
Christine: You’re so good at things.
Em: I know. Um, so obviously this place is near Tampa, uh.
[laughs]
Christine: We all knew that.
[laughs]
Em: And this house is sometimes referred to as Florida’s “Most Haunted House.”
Christine: Oh!
Em: And as soon as I saw that, I went, “Ugh, this is not gonna be a short story.”
Christine: No, and also like, really? Isn’t there all that shit in Key West? But okay.
Em: Like what happened to the Saint Augustine Lighthouse, like?
Christine: Like right? I guess it’s not a house. Maybe that’s what they’re saying, like this is technically a house. Hm.
Em: Mm. Yeah. I don’t know ’cause I– Yeah. When it comes to–
Christine: But Robert the Doll’s house. There’s, there’s Hemingway’s hou– There’s a lot of haunted houses.
Em: When it, when it comes to “Most Haunted,” I’m always like, “Okay, so you’re in a Listicle.” That’s like kinda how I think of it.
Christine: Yeah. Right, right, right, right, right. Right, right, right. I guess anybody could say that, technically.
Em: Until– You know what we should do? We should come up with the, the a-award ceremony–
Christine: I love that. Why not?
Em: Call it a, a Ghosty, a Spooky. Something like that.
Christine: Oo-ooh!
Em: And whoever wins the Spooky is the “Most Haunted” until next year when someone else can win the Spooky.
Christine: Okay, so it’s like a place?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Like a, like a place that is most haunted? Okay. Okay. Cool. I love this idea.
Em: Um, and okay, here we go. So, it is like one of those Painted Lady Victorian homes.
Christine: Mm.
Em: It has gingerbread trim. Love that.
Christine: I love that.
Em: And it is now a four-story house. It was originally a two-story four room house. I only mention that because there’s a fun fact that comes up about that. Um, but these days, it’s a four-story house. It was originally a plantation home, yikes!
Christine: Mm.
Em: Um, there were 56 enslaved people here in one given year, according to an 1860 census.
Christine: Wow.
Em: And, it was remodeled later to become the four-story house it is today. It was about half that size back then. Um, as you can predict, super racist history here. Not only were there a lot of plantations in the whole area of Brooksville, Florida, but there was intense KKK activity here. Um, the– they were actively trying to remove Indigenous people still living there all the way through the 1800s. The city itself, Brooksville, is literally named after a guy who physically beat up an abolitionist on the Senate floor. Um, it’s–
Christine: “And here’s your reward: the town key!” It’s just like, what in the world? Okay.
Em: Yeah. [laughs] So, um, the first person who lived on the property that we know– Let me put it this way, the first white person to live here–
Christine: Mm!
Em: –uh, was in the 1840’s. And–
Christine: The person who discovered it for the first time ever.
Em: You’re onto something, yeah.
Christine: Yeah, I get it. I know how it goes.
Em: Uh, he had– uh, his name was Richard Wiggins, and he moved here under the – yikes! – Indian Removal Act.
Christine: Dick Wiggins? You don’t say?
Em: Dick Wig, yeah. That’s exactly right. He– [laughs] The– So, he was a homesteader, and he moved here under this act that basically said, “Oh, you sh– If you move on this property and live here for five years, then we’re gonna give you a hundred– 160 acres.” And it was basically a way to very quickly push people out.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, so he lived on the property, but only like 15 years later, the f– the house that we talk about in this story was built. And it was built by a guy named John May, who – fun fact – with his 56 enslaved people in just one year, was the second largest owner of enslaved people in the area. So, that’s the person we’re working with.
Christine: [slow clap in disgust]
Em: He– [laughs] And the last horse to cross the finish line, that’s right.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Uh, so he and his wife, Marena, and then their daughters, Matilda and Annie, are the ones that moved in. The house w– This is why I mentioned the setup of the house. Uh, when he built it, not only was he like already a character I wouldn’t like to break bread with, but he’s also a little slimy because he built the house very weirdly to avoid taxes.
Christine: [scoffs]
Em: Um, so, for example, their s–
Christine: This fucking guy.
Em: Their staircase was outside, and basically the house was detached, so it was almost like a first floor and a loft.
Christine: [sighs] So, he’s one of those where he’s like just trying to skirt rules that like he can perfectly fin– follow but chooses not to ’cause he thinks he’s above it. Okay.
Em: Yes. Yes.
Christine: Excellent.
Em: Um, lucky for our story, three years in, he is dead. So…
Christine: [laughs] Oh, goo–! Oh, good! [laughs] He fell down the stairs one, one summer day.
Em: [laughs] One outside staircase at a time.
Christine: Inside of a swamp.
Em: So, he dies of tuberculosis–
Christine: Oh.
Em: –and his funeral is in the parlor. Fun fact, the– his family continued to live there, and his wife remarried in the same parlor that his funeral was in.
Christine: [laughs] I really thought you were– Oh, hot! I thought you were about to say she remodeled, and I was like, “Good for her!” [laughs] She put the staircase inside.
Em: [laughs] Can you imagine? That would be lovely.
Christine: [laughs] She remarried, okay. I-in the funeral home.
Em: Especially in Florida, if you’re gonna have an outdoor staircase to your fucking house–
Christine: That’s insane.
Em: –in Florida?
Christine: You kn– It’s like moss-covered and has alligators on it. If– You can’t convince me otherwise.
Em: There’s at least a snake a month.
Christine: For sure! At least a snake.
Em: Those little lizards or the iguanas, what they’ve got over there– Eugh!
Christine: You’d have to like remove them every time you go up the stairs. ’Cause those iguana things are heavy.
Em: No. I– They do, they do look heavy, don’t they?
Christine: I don’t why I know that. I think I just assumed that. I don’t think I know that. I think I’m just assuming ’cause I haven’t picked one up.
Em: They do look like they’re the– like they’d feel like the case of– like a case of beer or something.
Christine: Yeah, right? ’Cause they like thud down from a tree, and it’s like, “Whoa. You got to be a weighty little boy.”
Em: [laughs] I certainly don’t like it. I’ll tell you that.
Christine: Get outta my staircase.
Em: Um, so, uh, yeah, he dies. She remarries in the same parlor, which I guess the parlor was just the spillover room because it seems like everything happens in a parlor.
Christine: It’s the event space, yeah.
Em: Um, so she remarries to a guy named Frank Saxon who doesn’t seem much better than the first guy. Um–
Christine: Good. She, she knows how to pick ‘em. That’s what I say about Marena.
Em: You know what? In the 1860’s, when all you gotta do is just find someone with money.
Christine: I guess you don’t get to pick– Maybe you don’t get to pick ‘em. You know what I mean? As a woman. Yeah.
Em: Maybe you don’t. She was like, “I’ve got two little girls. I’m hungry. Come on in.”
Christine: “There’s an iguana on the stairs. Somebody help.”
[laughs]
Em: That’s exactly right. I would also– I would, dare I say, marry a man if he would handle all of the like beer-case-heavy animals.
Christine: Oh, for sure! For sure, for sure. At least, there’s something they’re good for, you know.
Em: I– You know what? You– I’ll– That’s exactly right. That’s about–
Christine: You heard that, Blaise?
Em: –all they’re worth to me. [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] “Pick up my beer and move the iguana out of the way!”
Em: Well, you know what? [laughs] Innit funny Leona only drew him with arms? So.
Christine: Wow, Em. I think you are onto something.
Em: Leona was saying you don’t need arms because Daddy is gonna handle all of the iguanas.
Christine: You rest those hands of yours.
Em: Rest those dainty little digits. I’ve got it from here.
Christine: Thank you!
Em: So, she marries Frank. Frank is a Civil War soldier. Guess what side he played on? Um, he’s known as a Confederate hero. What does that mean?
Christine: Oh, good.
Em: Oxymoron to me. Um, and, fun fact, he was also casually involved in the murder of a local Black reverend who was formerly enslaved by the m– family he just fucking married into.
Christine: Ew! What?
Em: Uh, this reverend who, you know, is now, uh, free. He– Is there a better way to say that? Do you know?
Christine: Oh. Uh, I think emancipated maybe? I don’t know.
Em: Emancipated? Um, he was now a reverend. He officia– He officiated interracial, uh, marriages. I guess there was one couple that got married. Remember, back then that was not legal.
Christine: Right, of course.
Em: Um, the town racists, probably 99% of the people there, hated this, and there is some– I don’t know the entire exact gossip, but there were a few squabbles where the group would like approach this reverend and threaten him about like, “Hey, don’t fucking do that anymore.” At some point, the group approaches the reverend again. One person in the crowd, who was not Frank but it was certainly his friend, um, shot the reverend and killed him.
Christine: Oh! Jesus. Okay.
Em: And not only that, but during these like white supremist r– uh, white supremacist riots, they also like set the courthouse on fire and destroyed a lot of the like testimonies about this event, so they can maybe get away with it.
Christine: And, and Frank’s like part of this group?
Em: He’s, um, complicit in the behavior it seems.
Christine: Got it. Okay, okay.
Em: And, uh, so anyway. A lot of the– Fun fact: h-history about this house is also now never gonna be found out because records of this house were at that courthouse and got set on fire. So–
Christine: Great, great.
Em: We don’t totally know anything after that squabble. So, anyway– Frank–
Christine: This “squabble.” [laughs] This little squabble? [laughs]
Em: Squabble. This big fat racist murderous squabble. Um–
Christine: Oh god.
Em: So, so, F– That’s Frank. He’s a Confederate hero who also is friends with people who kill emancipated people. Um–
Christine: Yeah, great. Super duper. What could go wrong?
Em: So– I know. Again, Marena, girl. I hope it’s because you’re desperate not because you think they’re actually that cute.
Christine: Girl. [sucks air through teeth] Yeah.
Em: Um, so the group– Oh, no. So, that’s it. That’s the history to him. So Frank, second husband, and Marena have a son. The son ends up dying at five weeks old.
Christine: Aw.
Em: Later on, they have a daughter, who– If you don’t remember anything else from this, remember that her name was Jessie Mae. She’s our main ghost.
Christine: Ohh. And wasn’t the g– Last name– Oh, oh, so that’s just her last name, Mae.
Em: I think in honor of her previous husband.
Christine: Oh, that’s her middle name now in honor of–
Em: They named her middle name, Mae.
Christine: Gotcha. In honor of her mom’s pa– late husband.
Em: Previous relationship, yeah.
Christine: Yeah, okay.
Em: Um, and also maybe to like connect, connect her to her other two daughters that she has.
Christine: Mm, that’s fair. Yeah, That makes sense.
Em: Their last name’s May.
Christine: And Mae is a nice like middle name anyway. It’s like– It has a nice ring to it.
Em: Yeah. I will say interesting that Frank was supportive of that, so–
Christine: I agree, but maybe it’s like when someone dies, you know, it’s like, well, that’s–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Maybe it was just more accepted. I don’t know.
Em: Yeah. So they had the son who died at five weeks. Then, they have Jessie Mae, but Marena dies during childbirth.
Christine: Oh no.
Em: And Jessie Mae also dies at three-years-old.
Christine: Oh no! Jeez. Okay.
Em: Yeah. And we don’t know the reason for that. Um, but fun fact? Jessie Mae’s only ph–portrait was her post-mortem portrait, and it is now in the parlor of the house.
Christine: Eugh, god.
Em: But I think it’s a way to like honor her.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: She seems to be a very popular ghost there, and th– she seems to really like when people mention her.
Christine: Aw.
Em: So maybe the picture is to stir up conversation.
Christine: I have like full body completely covered in chills, for some reason.
Em: Is it her?
Christine: I don’t know. I hope not. Well, let me see that picture of her. What’s her name?
Em: Uh, Jessie Mae post-mortem photograph of a three-year-old.
Christine: Jessie Mae post-mortem… [laughs]
Em: Good luck.
Christine: Sorry, everybody. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Yeah, that’s sad.
Em: That’s wild that they used to do that. I get why they used to back then, but it was, uh, it’s still–
Christine: Yeah, yeah. ’Cause it’s like you didn’t know you would need a picture, you know, before they passed, and then it’s like, well.
Em: Or if it’s like the only pic– the only memory you’ll have of them. You know? You gotta just… take the picture.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, that’s– Okay, this is starting to get really sad and weird. Okay, I’m out. Bye.
Em: S– [laughs] So, that’s the history of the May family who lived here is that basically Marena had two relationships here. Children came from both of them. She ended up dying in the house. Her husband– Her first husband died in the house.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: So, anyway, the–
Christine: Two kids.
Em: I don’t know what happens after, I don’t know what happens after that, but i– in an ideal world, Frank now raises all three of– Or, no. Frank raises his two stepdaughters and is no longer a white supremacist. That’s the dream.
Christine: That would be, that would be great, wouldn’t it?
Em: [laughs] Yeah, when he, uh, when he turns back on everything he ever fought for, so.
Christine: Yeah. We can dream.
Em: After they end up leaving the house, it is now owned by the Stringer family, hence May-Stringer house.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: The house is owned by Dr. Sheldon Stringer. Sheldon Stringer, I love the alliteration. His–
Christine: That’s a good one. That’s a good one.
Em: –parent– His parents really went with it there. Fun fact: he loved the House of Seven Gables.
Christine: Oh?
Em: And so, apparently, this house when he got it had three gables, and he went, “Ah-ah-ah.” And he added four gables to make seven.
Christine: [laughs] “I know just what to do!”
Em: [laughs] It’s like, “My signature touch will be four gables.”
Christine: [laughs] Okay. Wow.
Em: So, fun fact, now it is literally a house of seven gables.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And his, his house also was a clinic, which was very common back then if you were a doctor is that you’d make one of the floors your clinic.
Christine: Mm.
Em: So, already– Forget the Indigenous people who probably died on the property, the enslaved people who probably died on the property, the May family who’s now been here. Now it’s literally a doctor’s office where deaths are happening.
Christine: Oh, good point.
Em: Um, even if people are surviving traumas like amputations and things like that, that energy’s still there.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people are coming in and out all day.
Em: Yeah. And, there is a theory, we have no proof of this, but it has been alleged that this was also, um, not just his clinic, but he turned it into a sanatorium specifically for people enduring smallpox and yellow fever.
Christine: Ohh, okay.
Em: In which case, there’s a lot more deaths.
Christine: Oh, yeah.
Em: Um, which by the way, in Fredericksburg, we have an old school apothecary. Uh–
Christine: Oh, yeah. That’s right. You’ve sent me photos.
Em: And it looks, it looks like it does. Um, and I took Allison when she was in town to the apothecary tour, and they show you how they used to do old-fashioned amputations.
Christine: [gasps] Shut up.
Em: Um, and it’s with all the old equipment and everything. It looks like you’re in an 1800’s clinic room.
Christine: Eugh!
Em: And then apparently, I was talking to the, the docent. Uh, she’s like our age, so I think she didn’t feel like she totally had to be in character.
Christine: Mm-hmm. The docent, [laughs] yeah.
Em: And, um, she, she said something. We were like, “You know, just, just be real with us. How do you explain this to kids?” And she said– She was like, “Oh, well, whenever we have school tours come in like whoever’s like the rowdiest kid, I like amputate him.”
[laughs]
Christine: Oh-kay.
Em: She, she was like, “He wants the attention, so we let him sit in the chair, and then we do the whole thing. And like we, we do it.” But it– Like– Uh, like I guess the point of their school tour is they like get to volunteer somebody to like do the amputation on, which if you’re nine years old, I would l– obviously wanna be that person so badly.
Christine: That’s… badass. I do too, yeah.
Em: So, a– In some– I’m sure like in an adult way, it’s like, “Hee-hee-hee. Like, it’s because you’re kinda being a bit of a pest.” But as a kid, you know he’s like gonna talk about that, that for the rest of his life.
Christine: He’s just like, “This is my dream.” Yeah.
Em: But, um– And then, when I found out that they do like examples or like they like, uh, reenact it, I was like, “Why because you saw a room of 30-year-olds you didn’t ask if we wanted to reenact it? I would have absolutely–”
Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say, for kids? What do you do for adults?
Em: I was like, “Had I known that before we were talking now, I would have raised my hand sky-high to get my arm amputated.”
Christine: Absolutely. “Me! Me! Pick me!”
Em: Just because it’s so fascinating. And– Oh! They literally have a jar there still full of like live leeches. And homegirl just gr– dunked her hand in the bowl and just picked up a leech and just showed it to–
Christine: No, thank you.
Em: It w– I was like–
Christine: What– They’re alive in there?
Em: Al– Like a real fucking leech.
Christine: That’s fucking–
Em: Which, by the way, talk about thuds because that thing?
Christine: Ewww!
Em: She was a big girl. Like, it– I thought leeches were like little inchworms. That thing was like a fr– like a toad size.
Christine: Well, you know why they get big, right? ’Cause they drink all the blood and shit, and then they swell up like a tick.
Em: Well, I asked her. I was like, “Why are you holding that, girl? Like aren’t– isn’t it, isn’t it gonna like suck your blood?” And apparently, they like feed them and like a diet that is not blood. So, it’s like he’s, he’s chunky because he’s eating something other than blood.
Christine: He does not eat blood, right. Okay. That’s fair.
Em: But, uh, but so– She was like, “Be– When they’re not hungry, they won’t suck on you.” So, she just felt comf– But not knowing that and watching a girl stick her hand in a bowl full of live fucking leeches, I was like, “This is Fear Factor.” Like, for sure.
Christine: This feels like Fear F– It feels like I need to exit the room. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. And by the way, they literally had a basket full of hay in there, and I was like, “Oh, what’s that?” And she was like, “Oh, that’s where the, the limbs go after you amputate.” And I went, “Oh my god.” I’m, I was so fascinated by it.
Christine: Oh, like back in the day.
Em: Yeah, like at–
Christine: Oh, ‘cause it soaks up the moisture, yeah. The blood. Oh my god. Oh my god.
Em: I’m so fascinated by like old school medical stuff, so–
Christine: Me too. It’s wild.
Em: Anyway, I was thinking about my own Fredericksburg apothecary when I was reading this. Um, and, yeah, so– And they– But they sometimes didn’t have painkillers back then because they were too expensive, so you just had to– There–
Christine: They would just like ether you. They would just like put shit over your face to like–
Em: Yeah, they– There was a part, uh, at first where they– There was part of the [sighs] I don’t– Part of the procedure where they said like, “We hope this part is the part where you pass out from the pain because, otherwise, it gets worse.” And I was like, “Oh my god.” I was like, I was like, “That I–“ Anyway. If you’d like to go on a really disturbing apothecary tour, go to Fredericksburg, Virginia.
Christine: Uhh, I mean I would.
Em: It was fascinating. I was so glad I went.
Christine: I love old medical stuff too. I find it like deeply fascinating.
Em: I have a book I’m reading. It’s not like it– Relax. It, uh, it, but it’s like, a–
Christine: [laughs] Okay.
Em: It– It’s, it’s heavily, heavily pictured. Heavily pictured.
Christine: Oh, I see.
Em: Um, but it’s, uh– I actually bought it from that apothecary. It’s like Revolutionary War medical stuff.
Christine: It’s The Berenstain Bears Go to the Doctor. Oh, sorry.
Em: [laughs] Uh, it– Pretty much. But it’s, um, it’s very interesting. I’ll give it to you when you’re done, or when I’m done. It’s– Obviously, if I can read it, you can like flip through it in like five seconds, but.
Christine: I remember when you, uh, mentioned that once before I think. I, I, I lo– I would love to, to l– to take a peak at that.
Em: Anyway, so he bec– The, the new family who moved in is the Stringers. He’s a doctor. He’s turned this into a clinic at– on the bottom where maybe he’s doing the same things I saw at my apothecary.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: He is also the family that, uh, expands it into a four-story house. Three generations of his family live here. Um, eventually, when it passes on from the Stringer family, it is owned by a few other families. It ends up– In 1980, flash forward to, um, 19–
Christine: Okay. Oh, wow. Very far forward.
Em: It exchanges a lot of hands. It’s like a– It’s a rental space at one point. It gets sold to the historical society of the area, the Hernando Historical Museum Association. You don’t have to remember that.
Christine: Okay. Hernando County.
Em: That’s exactly right.
Christine: Mm.
Em: So, um, they, they bought it in 1980, and now they fundraise to try to preserve it and all that stuff. Many of the rooms look as they did back then, especially because a lot of the town has done a lot of donations there to keep the decor looking as real as– a-authentic as possible.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: Um, and they’ve also turned some of the rooms into exhibits to give you an idea of what life looked like back then, so you know I fucking love it.
Christine: I love that. Living history.
Em: I– Literally, nothing gets me more jazzed than a living history museum. Nothing.
Christine: Me too. You and I– Like you know we just want to time travel for a living. That would be just the dream.
Em: I just– I want it! I want it, Christine.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: I– What did I say in that text to you last week? “You know what I want. Say you want it too.” [laughs]
Christine: “Say it. Say you want it too.”You’re so– You’re literally out of your mind is what you are.
Em: Oh, I have chills just thinking about it. Um, so some of the rooms are: a military room. To me, yawn.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Then, there’s an 1880’s doctor’s office. Hello.
Christine: Cool.
Em: And there’s a 1900’s communication room with like old-school radios and speakers and stuff like that.
Christine: Whoa.
Em: Um, and obviously the museum is aware that they’re incredibly haunted. They lean into the haunts, so it’s not like they’re trying to hide it, which I love. And they’re– The museum hosts, uh, home tours like of just the building but also two hour to six hour ghost tours with equipment.
Christine: Oh, cool.
Em: And they have a house, uh, binder full of evidence from like a hundred investigations.
Christine: Oh, that’s awesome. You know I love a binder with evidence.
Em: I love– Ooh. In, in the living history museum, are you kidding me?
Christine: Ugh!
Em: Uh, there’s two people I’m gonna talk about who work there. Uh, one’s name is Bonnie. We love Bonnie. Um, and then there’s Autumn. We also love Autumn, but we know less about Autumn.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Um, so Bonnie is like the main overnight docent. She calls herself the docent. I don’t know if that’s– if there’s a better word for that. But, um, she is the one who does all the overnight ghost stuff because, apparently, everyone else is too scared to do it.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: But she’s been there for like almost 20 years. She–
Christine: Wow.
Em: She really just loves this place.
Christine: She’s the expert.
Em: She says that ghost-wise, this house is “like Grand Central Station for ghosts.”
Christine: Ooh.
Em: Um, that there is just stuff coming in and out all the goddamn time. And, there are– Let’s see. Oh, apparently, the– buh-buh-buh-buh-buh. At least four or five of the Mays and Saxons are buried on the property, so John May’s family and Frank– Both of Marena’s husbands have family buried on the property.
Christine: Okay, okay.
Em: And, um, and plus on top of that, there’s the ghosts, like I said, Indigenous people, enslaved people, Stringer’s pat– doctor’s patients, uh, family who’s buried there, antiques that have been donated to the place that carry energy.
Christine: Ohhh.
Em: All those spirits might be there.
Christine: True.
Em: And around 2002, Bonnie was working there, and a, um, paranormal team came in and said, “Hey, we– You know, it’s, uh, it’s rumored through town that this place is haunted. Can we do a ghost hunt here?” And it went so well, and they got so much stuff, they ended up coming back five more times.
Christine: Oh my gosh.
Em: And they ended up telling the staff like, “If you’re trying to raise funds, like why are you not offering ghost tours? Like this is a, a jackpot situation.” So, ever since then, the house has been doing the ghost tours–
Christine: Cool.
Em: –uh, to raise funds for preservations– uh, for preserv– preserving the house. And at least 80 different teams have come through throughout that time.
Christine: That’s a lot.
Em: Another way that they raise funds– Every Halloween, they put on this event called “GhostFest” where they turn the haunted house into a haunted house attraction.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: They also do like the food trucks and fortune tellers and all that.
Christine: Mm.
Em: Um, and after this event, so right– Also, people are coming in and out a lot, so that’s ramping up activity, plus it’s Halloween, All Hallow’s Eve. They say that around this time, the activity is always higher in the house, and it takes a second for things to settle back down. Uh, but now–
Christine: That’s always so fascinating. I don’t know. I just find that interesting like it, like rattles things up. Kinda like a, like a renovation or something.
Em: Well– Okay, so I, I thought the same thing. And I always wonder like if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. Like are you now just inviting more things into the house?
Christine: Yeah. Right, right, right.
Em: But, I don’t know. It seems to work for them. So, now all I’m gonna do is just list, for the rest of time it seems, different ghosts that people experience here.
Christine: Read the binder. Read the binder. [laughs]
Em: I feel like I’m reading the binder. So, in the house, people hear, obviously, voices. They feel something tap on their back. They hear whispering. Doors open and close. Lights turn on and off. People have experienced weird smells like– Sometimes, it’s normal like perfume, cigars, or food. But then it’s like, “Oh. Death.” Just a random smell of death.
Christine: Cool.
Em: Uh, women feel spiderwebs on them, which I know you’ve felt a lot before.
Christine: Yeah, that’s actually usually Eva’s.
Em: Oh, right.
Christine: I’ve definitely felt that, but Eva usually se– feels like there’s– She thinks that there’s like a– you know when you have like a hair, a long hair on your arm, and you’re trying to pull it off.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: She gets that feeling a lot when we go ghost hunting. Like it’s something’s kind of like on her.
Em: Yeah, she’s– It’s usually the first thing she says.
Christine: Yeah. It’s kind of– It’s scary ’cause it’s like a physical thing, you know. It feels like w– something’s touching you. Like. too close. Too close.
Em: It’s always, uh– Yeah, I feel like whenever Eva says she feels spiderwebs on her, it’s her saying, [sing-song voice] “It’s starting.” You know?
Christine: I know. [laughs] It always feels like, “And here we go!” [laughs]
Em: Uh, so, that happens a lot for women in the house. They feel the spiderwebs.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Uh, there– In the attic, there’s a bed, like a– just a leftover bed, and it messes itself up all the time.
Christine: Oh, like the bedding?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Eugh.
Em: Like, they’ll go into the room. It’s totally fine. They’ll leave for five seconds and come back, and the bed’s a mess.
Christine: Yuck.
Em: Shoes in the rooms– Because remember, they make it– They still make it look like it’s, uh, living history, so they have clothes and stuff.
Christine: Oh, I keep forgetting that. I’m like, “Did someone forget the bed?” Okay.
Em: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: Oh, no, they have it up there for like show– Okay.
Em: So, shoes in the room will move on their own.
Christine: Are they like old-timey shoes?
Em: I guess so.
Christine: Oh, well that would be weird if they were New Balance, I guess. Never mind. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] They’re actually my Back to the Future Nike Air Mags.
Christine: [laughs] Honestly, those would get stolen so fast.
Em: They’d get swiped by me, yeah.
Christine: Actually, they’d be put in the lost-and-found at the airport, which is where I believe I, I put them.
Em: [laughs] Well, people also hear crashes and bangs, knocks, thuds. The alarms inside the house get set off all the time. I- I’m sure it’s one of those houses that like the, the police don’t even come anymore.
Christine: The cops, yeah. They’re like, “Ugh, not again.” And then, they make the rookie do it. [laughs]
Em: Yeah. Uh, people feel breath in their face. They hear crying, specifically when they turn the vacuum on. I wonder if it’s just too loud, and they’ve–
Christine: Ohh.
Em: And they’re like, “What the hell is this thing?”
Christine: Well, I wonder if– They just start crying. [laughs]
Em: Oh, sorry. I should say– Sorry. They hear like children crying, so maybe the sounds scares them.
Christine: Ohh, oh. I was just [unintelligible] why would it make you cry? Oh, okay. Uh, I wonder if like it’s– You know how you use static like, uh, a spirit box to hear voices.
Em: Ohh.
Christine: Like I wonder if it’s that like humming like, um, white noise that like lets you hear the sound.
Em: Interesting. ’Cause my thought was like maybe that energy is like messing with their energy or something.
Christine: ’Cause when I have Leona’s baby monitor on, I can like– You can like hear– It almost feels like you can hear more of like different– I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s weird. There’s something about how the baby monit– how like, uh, white noise makes it feel like you’re hearing things that aren’t there necessarily.
Em: If that’s not in a movie, it oughta be. Of just–
Christine: I’m sure it is. I’m sure it is ’cause it’s like a– It’s quite a phenomenon, especially for sleep-deprived parents.
Em: Speaking of horror movies, I gotta tell you. I’ve– Since I’ve been landlocked, my stepbrother and I have made it a thing where like every night we’re watching a horror movie. And we watched both movies. There’s two of these somehow. Um, uh, the, the Winnie the Pooh horror movie.
Christine: What?
Em: It’s called Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey.
Christine: No, thank you. That’s insane. What is wrong with people? Why would you do something like that?
Em: They’re trying to create like– I guess a lot of, um–
Christine: Oh, oh, what the fuck?
Em: Yeah. It’s really actually shockingly grotesque.
Christine: I hate this. 3% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Em: Yeah. It– That’s right. Um, but, basically he’s, he’s vengeful because Christopher Robin left them in the Hundred Acre Wood, and now he’s– He attacks all humans. Uh.
Christine: People also ask “How is Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey legal?” [laughs]
Em: Yeah, actually I do know the reason. Uh, I don’t know the right words, but I guess like the– After so many years, like the IP is–
Christine: Yeah, it’s in public domain now, like Happy Birthday.
Em: –public. Well, so, now th-this company– You know how like there’s the Marvel Universe blah-blah-blah– They’re coming out with all the things that are now–
Christine: That’s so fucked up.
Em: All the things that are now public domain, they’re trying to put into this universe. So right now, because Pooh was the first one, they’re calling it the, the Poohniverse. The– [laughs]
Christine: That’s– You know what? I’ve had about enough of these people. Who is this? I’ve–
Em: And there’s gonna be like Peter Pan and all these people are gonna like all come together as like an ensemble Avengers movie one day and just like kill Earth.
Christine: No. I’ll be honest I’m like really not happy about this P–Winnie the Pooh thing. I’m actually like very upset about it ’cause Winnie the Pooh is like, like my thing.
Em: [laughs] You know what I’m upset about?
Christine: And I’m now mad about it. Now I’m mad.
Em: Okay, here’s thing that will really set you off. If they were to write a Pooh horror movie, wouldn’t you think because it’s like– it’s like Pooh and h-his gang of friends in the Hundred Acre Wood– Would you not fucking expect Tigger to be there?
Christine: I was gonna say, well, Tigger would have to use his spring tail.
Em: And guess what?
Christine: He’s not in it at all?
Em: At all.
Christine: Do you know why? Probably ’cause Tigger’s not in the public fucking domain yet.
Em: Well, maybe that’s true, but then he makes an appearance in the second one.
Christine: Oh, I see. [laughs]
Em: But, like okay, but here’s the thing. So, it was basically just Ti– Pooh and Piglet the first time. They, they say in the description– They say the people that you are going to see murdering everybody is Pooh, Piglet, Owl, Rabbit, and then, uh, and Eeyore makes like a guest appearance. Here’s the thing. No fucking sign of Eeyore. No fucking sign of Rabbit in either movie. No fucking sign of Owl until the seco–
Christine: Rabbit’s the angriest one!
Em: That’s what I’m saying. Like he has a lot of ang– He’s got a lot of energy to take out.
Christine: You know he’s just boiling under the surface. You know he’s about to snap.
Em: But literally, at– Like we saw the description, and then throughout the whole movie, the whole first movie, I was like where the fuck is Rabbit? Where the fuck is Owl? Like, where is everybody? And like, why weren’t Kanga and Roo like a mother-daught– mother-son team? Are you kidding me? That would’ve been really interesting.
Christine: Yeah. Made for it.
Em: Nope. Nothing.
Christine: Good.
Em: It was only Pooh and Piglet. And then the second movie, they finally introduce Tigger who only gets like three scenes, and Owl gets more scenes than Pooh.
Christine: Heh?
Em: And he doesn’t look like– Like they– He looks like Freddy Krueger. Like he doesn’t even look like an owl.
Christine: I’m mad about this. I’m actually really upset.
Em: But at one point–
Christine: You know what I saw?
Em: What?
Christine: Nosferatu.
Em: Ugh, me too.
Christine: You did?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I loved it. You didn’t like it?
Em: No. But I also– I don’t know– I’m– I was not tuned in to anything Nosferatu beforehand, so if I’m supposed to like love it for what it was, I don’t know what it was.
Christine: We– I don’t either. But we mentioned Nosferatu to my dad ’cause like it’s from the 1920s. And he’s like, “Oh, yes, I know that guy.” And we were like, “You know that guy?” He–
Em: [laughs] Are you him? He kinda looks like Nosferatu.
Christine: To be fair– Yeah, he does a little bit. Uh, to be fair, he also said, um, that he knows, he knows the Grinch, and we were like, “Okay. I don’t– You’ve really lost it, I think.” But so–
Em: Interesting.
Christine: Then, we’re watching the movie, and every time this motherfucking monster is like doing something grotesque, I just like kept turning to my brother and going, “I can’t believe Dad knows this guy.” And then, of course, we started laughing, and then it just kinda probably ruined it for everyone else. But–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: It was– I, I had a good watch. It was definitely like a very gothic romance horror type thing. Um, definitely not like as shock.
Em: Yeah. It wasn’t Pooh: Blood and Honey?
Christine: I mean, no. And I’m so sorry, Em, that like it didn’t live up to that for you. But, I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself at home. Um.
Em: I, I was actually– I was also so disappointed in P– I mean, not that I thought it was gonna be a fucking like Oscar winner, but, um, I was just like, “Where the hell is Tigger? Like, what’s going on?”
Christine: That’s silly.
Em: And then when he showed up, all he did– Every single line Tigger had, every single line, he ends it with calling someone a bitch. He would sh–
Christine: Tigger?
[laughs]
Em: Like they’re at a rave, and he just–
Christine: Now that fits.
Em: And he literally– His first line, his first line– He– They’re at a rave, and then he says, “Come here, you fluorescent bitch!” [laughs] And then he just kills someone. I was like, “Th-This is not–“
Christine: What in the fuck is going on?
Em: “This is not the Hundred Acre Wood I know.”
Christine: I’m actually not happy about that one bit.
Em: [laughs] It’s really weird.
Christine: In fact, I’m very mad about it actually. And I’m not, I’m not pleased.
Em: How we got here, I just don’t know. Um–
Christine: Blood and Honey. Get outta here. Get a grip.
Em: And they’re– Anyway, I’m excited for the, for when the ensemble cast– the entire Disney cast comes together. [laughs]
Christine: I’m not. I’m deeply not happy about it.
Em: [sighs] Uh, sh– I’m trying to see where that– where I could’ve gotten that from. Uh–
Christine: Oh, that content that you just said about? Uh, you said, horror movies… Speaking of horror movies. That’s–
Em: [laughs] It doesn’t m– Whatever. Something about the vacuum, we hear– They hear kids crying during the vacuum.
Christine: Oh, I– You said it should be in a horror movie to do white noise. And I said, it– Pretty sure it is.
Em: Ohh. Yes. Okay. Did everyone enjoy that tangent? Great.
Christine: No. Oh, sorry.
Em: People also see black mists. They see apparitions. Apparently, playing the music down– Playing music downstairs triggers really eery energy. They think that’s connected to the record player.
Christine: Ooh! That goes with the sound again, like the vacuum, the music, like you’re– you start hearing stuff. I don’t know.
Em: Oh! That’s interest– That’s a good point.
Christine: Hm.
Em: Um, they also see a soldier sitting in a wheelchair where like the clinic used to be. People have seen a World War II soldier and–
Christine: I– Seeing a soldier, like an old-timey soldier, would scare me so badly. ’Cause just after watching all those like war movies in, in middle school and stuff where you had to see all the reenactments and it’s like– If I saw a soldier in front of me like from an old-timey period with a weapon, I would be so fucking terrified. Like it would scare the shit out of me.
Em: Especially because if I saw them, I would assume like, “Oh, I’m witnessing a moment of war.” Now I’ve like– Now what’s going on?
Christine: Yeah, like if they’re holding a fucking bayonet like– Oof.
Em: Yeah. And they’re coming at you? Ah.
Christine: Right.
Em: Well, apparently, there’s this World War II soldier that people have seen after like his diary got donated there. Um.
Christine: [gasps] That’s interesting! He’s attached to his diary.
Em: He was a poet. He–
Christine: Aww.
Em: See, he’s, he’s a bad boy with a, with a good heart.
Christine: With a heart of gold.
Em: He’s got an artsy side.
Christine: You know I’m already falling for him.
Em: But that’s ‘cause you fear him and love him at the same time. That’s your favorite.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: That’s your favorite. Um, one person–
Christine: Blood and honey, baby.
[laughs]
Em: So, on one tour, someone’s ponytail lifted itself. Yuck.
Christine: Ew!
Em: Like someone was picking it up.
Christine: Ew! They’re like, “What the hell is this?”
Em: [laughs] “Take this thing out!” On another tour, a visitor was disappointed she hadn’t heard anything, and then right behind her, there was this really loud whistle everyone heard.
Christine: Yuck.
Em: One person heard the– [laughs] Apparently, Tigger was there–
Christine: Oh no.
Em: –because one person heard the bathroom door jiggling, and at the same time, they got an EVP of someone saying “Bitch.” [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] “Bitch, the doorknob won’t open!” [laughs]
Em: “Come here, you fluorescent bitch!”
Christine: “Bitch, I’m stuck in the bathroom!”
[laughs]
Christine: “Fluorescent bitch.” Insane. They need to go to jail, these people. I don’t care. They’re going to prison.
Em: [laughs] So, uh, that staircase that was outside with all the iguanas on it, uh, eventually, it got moved inside during the renovations, which thank god. And there are lots of noises, lots of activity on those stairs. Some people even see a shadow person on the stairs.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: The, uh, employee, Autumn, who I mentioned–
Christine: It’s that guy being like, “I’m not paying taxes on this, okay? I’m not.”
Em: Yeah, he’s like, “In case, in case, the H– uh, H&R Block guy comes over, they were outside.”
Christine: [laughs] “This was not me.”
Em: So, Autumn, the other employee I mentioned, this is her story of seeing a shadow person on that staircase.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: Uh, this is a quote from her. She said, “I had walked to the front door to make sure it was locked, and I had my cell phone light on because we had already shut everything, uh– We had already shut everything down.” So she’s walking around with her– only her cell phone light on. Right out of a horror movie.
Christine: Mm.
Em: “And when I got to the foyer, I shined my light towards the door, and he was standing between myself and the door.” This random guy.
Christine: Like, no. Like, immediately no.
Em: “I turned around and go back to the gift shop.”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Of course.
Christine: Back to the gift shop, I go! That is also my MO.
Em: [laughs] She needed an FLT. Uh-
Christine: [laughs] She deserved it.
Em: “I got one of my co-workers, and we both returned to the front door, and now he was on the stairs.” Isn’t that cr–
Christine: [gasps] They both saw him? So, he’s still there. That’s not good.
Em: Not only are two people now seeing him, but he stayed. It’s not like he–
Christine: And he moved. Oh no.
Em: He moved, and he’s like– He didn’t blink away. Like he’s still there. Then she says, “The minute she saw him and I saw him at the same time, she said, ‘Let’s get out of here.’ And as we were heading back towards the door, she turned around and saw that he was now standing in front of the stairs at this point, so he’s still moving.” Agh.
Christine: And now he came close– back closer, right?
Em: Yeah. So, it’s like he–
Christine: So he was like up the stairs, and then he came back? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Em: [sighs] So, I, I’ve never heard of an apparition like staying consistently there for three different times you, you’re looking at it.
Christine: Agreed. Especially like moving to different spots. It’s not like you close your eyes, looked, he’s j– still there. It’s like he’s moving towards you.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And also, it’s not just residual like he walked up the stairs and vanished. It’s like he walked up the stairs, then you did something, and he turned around? Like absolutely not.
Em: Yeah. He’s really patrolling the steps.
Christine: Yeah, I don’t love that.
Em: Okay, now I have broken– I’m so sorry. I know this is long. I really– I was trying to give you a short one. Um, but now I’m just gonna go in chunks, so it– this is easier to digest, so–
Christine: I can’t wait.
Em: We’re now gonna talk about the ghost kids here.
Christine: Mm.
Em: So, the ghost kids. Activity has been around since at least 1960 when they were first renovating the house. This is 20 years before it became a museum. Um, and even just during those renovations, people were hearing a little girl saying, “Mama.”
Christine: Aw, honey.
Em: And they think that was maybe Jessie Mae looking for her mom,’cause she was three and her mom died, you know?
Christine: Well, didn’t her mom die during childbirth?
Em: Yeah, but she– Like, I’m saying like she was three and still looking for her mom who had died.
Christine: And so she didn’t have a mom, basically.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, people also constantly hear a child crying. Other times, they hear a child laughing. Very frequently, people hear kids running around upstairs. One time, Bonnie brought her kid to work with her. And while they were closing, she heard her daughter walking around upstairs and a second pair of footsteps following her.
Christine: Oh! That’s nightma– I’d say, “Both of you stay here. Bye!”
Em: Yeah. Well, then her daughter–
Christine: “You’re not coming home with me.”
Em: Then, her daughter came running down because she fel– She said something grabbed her leg. So, it’s almost like the footsteps were chasing her to like grab her.
Christine: Oh no… I thought it was like, oh, she was just upstairs playing with another kid. But like that’s way scarier.
Em: Yeah, no, she was just walking around.
Christine: It’s like following her.
Em: Um, which is interesting that the– someone downstairs could hear the footsteps but not the person that was walking right next to them.
Christine: Oh! That’s interesting. Eugh!
Em: Some of the donations that have been brought here have been antique dolls which the children ghosts seem to gravitate towards.
Christine: Aw.
Em: And some think that the dolls now belong to Jessie Mae. Sometimes, they think it’s to a– it’s another ghost who has kinda taken ownership of them because people have seen a six-year-old girl sitting next to the doll’s cradle.
Christine: Ohh. Well, those girls– Those other girls lived there, right? Like, two girls lived there.
Em: Oh, that’s true. Yeah, so it could have been one of them.
Christine: Two sisters. And they could be the one saying “Mommy” ’cause if they had– like–
Em: Oh, yeah.
Christine: ’Cause if they grew up with their mom involved. Yeah. Aw.
Em: Um, there was also a black mist that hovered over one of the dolls when it first got there.
Christine: Oh, gosh.
Em: Which is either like, okay, the doll had an attachment, or something at the building really liked this new doll.
Christine: Yeah! R– Yeah. The bl– The fact that it’s a black mist is a little weird like.
Em: Yeah, don’t love that.
Christine: It feels very Eeyore. Like a dark cloud.
Em: [laughs] Uh, there are dolls on display, uh, kind of throughout. There’s like cribs and cradles with dolls.
Christine: I mean, that’s already bad. Like you and I have been places with dolls at night. And it’s like– It just– Even if nothing else is happening, it’s just bad vibes for me.
Em: Yeah. It j– It’s literally a– several eyes staring at you.
Christine: A– Like glassy eyes, yeah.
Em: Um, someone came to appraise one of the dolls. And when he was looking at her, a-appraising her – that’s great and all – but when he went to put her back, he put her in the bed, instead of in its crib, in it– like in its rightful spot.
Christine: Fucking dumbass.
Em: He left the room for a second, and when he, when he came back, the entire crib was dismantled and scattered on the floor.
Christine: What? What could that even mean?
Em: In my mind, it’s like, “Well, if my dolly can’t be here, then we might as well not have a fucking cradle.” That’s what it felt like to me. Like something like–
Christine: That is so freaky because that means like in the moments, he was gone, it disassembled silently, or, or it just like [snaps] snap of a finger, quantum leap dismantled.
Em: It’s, it’s always that question for us. How did it happen? Yeah.
Christine: Quantum Ikea c-construction.
Em: [laughs] Um, anyway, that’s just about terrifying to me. Um, people have also asked to touch the dolls or the crib, and the spirit box will tell them “no, get out,” “get away from my dolls.” Um.
Christine: “The crib will explode into a million pieces.” [laughs]
Em: The crib will explode. [laughs] Uh, all of a sudden, you’ll hear, “fluorescent bitch” over the spirit box.
Christine: [laughs] From the bathroom.
Em: [laughs] Um, some say that they’ve also seen like an infant crawling on the floor by the cradle, and so maybe that’s Jessie Mae.
Christine: Aw, jeez.
Em: Um, there’s a ball in Jessie Mae’s room that they use during investigations. That has been said to move by itself. There are toys that are found, uh, in different positions. Sometimes, they are found in completely different rooms. The teacups downstairs will move themselves from the table.
Christine: Oh, interesti– Tea party!
Em: I know. Well, they’ll move from the, from the cabinet by themselves to the table.
Christine: So– that’s so cute!
Em: And some– I guess they’ve hosted like actual tea parties here, and when they set out a certain amount, they’ll always find one extra has been put on the table.
Christine: They’re like, “You forgot about me.”
Em: It’s like, “Girl, I want to drink tea too.”
Christine: Aw.
Em: During one tour, uh, one guy got his belt loop pulled on, and they asked the spirit box if that was Jessie. And instead, they got the word, “Frank–“ or they got the phrase, “Franklin, please don’t tell.” And so they think that might be the son ’cause it was Frank's son, so–
Christine: [gasps] Ohh.
Em: Maybe it– We don’t know the name of the son. Now, they th–
Christine: Oh, we don’t know the name.
Em: We think it might be Franklin just because we heard Franklin and then like a little kid like, “Please don’t tell.”
Christine: When did that boy die? Six?
Em: At five weeks.
Christine: Oh, five weeks!
Em: Yeah. But then, it could also be any other kid. Who knows? Or it could be fucking Frank being weird. You know? A grown man.
Christine: I mean, I was gonna say, yeah. Maybe it was Frank. Was his full name Franklin?
Em: I don’t know.
Christine: Could be.
Em: Okay, so that’s it for the ghosts. Now, we’re gonna talk about Marena, the one who married both of the men and had the kids.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Uh, so– Oh, this is where I also have to send you photos.
Christine: Ooh! Okay. I lit a candle in here, and it’s like, um– I just lit my, my usual pumpkin one from T– Target that I always have in the fall. And there’s something like– You know how a, a smell just makes things like feel completely different?
Em: Oh, yeah.
Christine: It feels like so nice and cozy in here ’cause it’s like that pumpkin candle, and I feel like I’ve just been doing like Christmas-y candles, and all of a sudden, I’m like “Oh, it’s so nice and autumnal.”
Em: Autumnal! I love that.
Christine: Even though I’m snowed into my home in January.
Em: [laughs] Um, okay. So, this is Marena.
Christine: Okay. Where are you– W– Are you sending it to the group or to the–?
Em: Sorry. I, I’m, I’m– I haven’t sent it yet.
Christine: Oh.
Em: So, Marena is seen often, or we think this is Marena. There is a woman that is seen a lot in a dress with her hair up. At this point, we think it’s Marena. She’s been seen quite a few times. And one time, a new volunteer was working, and she was standing next to some of the quilts that were hanging in the kitchen, I think.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: This woman who seemingly was part of the tour– She walks up in front of everyone and smiles, points at the quilts, and goes, “This one’s mine.”
Christine: No.
Em: And then she fucking faded away in front of everybody.
Christine: No!
Em: Um, on one tour, a guest said he actually used to be a– like used to live in the house as a kid. So, he kind of also did the memory lane thing I just did.
Christine: Yeah. [laughs]
Em: Yeah. But, he went on– He went on a tour of the house and said, “By the way, I used to live here.” Fun fact–
Christine: That’s pretty cool.
Em: When he lived there, the house was, for rent, $100 a month.
Christine: Wow.
Em: Kill me. Then, he said when he was a kid there, he was bouncing a ball in the house one time, and his mom got annoyed and told him to put it away. So, he goes up to his room. He opens the door. This woman – maybe Marena – is standing there, sticks her hand out, and tells her to give him the ball.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: Uh, er, to give her the ball. He gives it to her and leaves. And outside of his room, through his door, he can now hear someone else bouncing the ball in his room.
Christine: What the fuck? Do you think it’s one of the kids? Like she gave it to her kids? Or like–
Em: Or maybe she like bounced it one time? I don’t know.
Christine: She was like, “Cool.” [laughs]
Em: But anyway, here are two shadow figures of Marena.
Christine: Dude, as a– to, to grow up and then go back to that house and know that you saw the apparition of the– of that woman in your own bedroom like–
Em: I know.
Christine: A– It must be like– Any, any time I turned a corner, I’d be like expecting to see her again if I came back.
Em: I know. Um, so these are two shadow figures of Marena I just sent you.
Christine: Did you send to the group?
Em: I, I will. I just sent them to you for now.
Christine: Okay. Oh… my god.
Em: So the first two pictures I just– I sent you are shadow figures.
Christine: [gasps] Holy cr– Why, she has a, a, a, an ample bosom, I should say.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Uh, I– That’s the first thing I noticed.
Em: That’s how she got two men, I guess.
Christine: Huh.
Em: Um, but then these– But then, the next two pictures I sent you, one is just a–
Christine: [gasps]
Em: –a clearer version. But it’s– And that’s what they– That was the woman who pointed at the quilts and said, “Those are mine,” and then faded away.
Christine: That is absolutely nutty.
Em: Yeah, that’s like definitely a woman.
Christine: That is– I mean, no doubt. Like just standing full– But then the one where it’s just a shadow figure of her in the kitchen, like, it’s the same kinda thing.
Em: You’re totally right.
Christine: Like she’s walking around in that corner, probably like– I wonder what that doorway was, a pantry maybe.
Em: Maybe, yeah.
Christine: Wow.
Em: Maybe that was the entrance to the original stairs.
Christine: Oh, could be.
Em: Maybe that’s just where she would go and cry ’cause she had two trashy men.
Christine: [laughs] She– It does look like she’s just staring into a corner, so it could very well just be her like bre– Like today, Leona and I were playing, and I got to a point where I was like, “Mommy needs to go to the room and coun– other room and count to ten and breathe.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And she was like, “Okay, bye!” And I was like, “One… Two…”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So maybe that’s what she was doing.
Em: Uh, okay, so that’s it for Marena. For Frank, people have–
Christine: Those are great pictures, by the way.
Em: Right?
Christine: Folks, if you go on, uh– Go to our Instagram ’cause those are like pretty kick-ass. Or our YouTube, I guess. I dunno. Um, but wow.
Em: Um, there’s also– it’s not as good, but there’s a full-bodied apparition picture– There’s two, I think, of Frank throughout the years. He was actually– The first picture of him as a full-bodied apparition was during that first investigation that they ever did.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: And, uh, like the very first ghost hunt that ever came through.
Christine: He just showed up imm– He probably after that was like, “I’m not making that mistake again.”
Em: Yeah, I know.
Christine: Like, started hiding.
Em: Well, so, they saw him on the second floor balcony. People have since seen him on the second floor balcony, and now, because of this, they think that– because their daughter, Jessie Mae, when she died, they don’t know how she died.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: They think maybe she like fell off the porch or something because that’s, that’s where you always see him.
Christine: Aww, sweetie. [sighs]
Em: Um, but it’s a total guess. Um, Dr. Stringer, the one who had the, the clinic.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Um, he is not very active, but one time, the employee, Bonnie, she tried to vacuum the doctor’s office, and she heard him shout, “Hey!” And then, “Infernal contraption!”
Christine: Oh!
Em: Isn’t that crazy?
Christine: What the fuck?
Em: Which–
Christine: Int– “Infernal contraption” is such a good phrase for a vacuum cleaner.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Like that’s what I call it too.
Em: Which like– and it makes sense ’cause he wouldn’t have known what it is. And he’d be like, “What the hell is this infernal contraption?”
Christine: And he’s probably so sick of it ’cause they probably have to vacuum like every day.
Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, he’s also seen on the stairs a lot in a black coat. Sometimes, he, uh, looks shocked like he’s seeing a patient in rough shape, so he’s like hurrying to be a doctor.
Christine: Wow… Aw.
Em: Sometimes, people also see a ghost that’s associated with him. Basically, we don’t know if this was his patient or if this was a friend of his, but, in 1866, someone was walking up to the building, um, to see Dr. Stringer, and he– I’m not kidding. This sounds like a Wile E. Coyote situation. He was shot by a horse-drawn carriage drive-by.
Christine: Come on.
Em: And now the ghost of that guy is often seen next to Dr. Stringer on the porch.
Christine: Yeah, ’cause he’s probably like, “Wait. What the hell just happened?”
Em: I’m sure– I mean, honestly if I saw a horse-drawn carriage drive-by, I’d go, “Did I just see a horse-drawn carriage drive-by? What the he–?”
Christine: But like, no wonder your spirit sticks around. Like, “What did– Am I–? What just happened?”
Em: Yeah. So, anyway, that guy gets seen quite a lot. I don’t know what I would do– It’s like, “Oh, I just saw someone shoot you and now ride off on their horse at like ten miles an hour.” Okay.
Christine: Yeah, what the– clomping arou– clomping along.
Em: Um, then– Okay, I’ve got two more for you. I’m so sorry this is so long.
Christine: Please, no. I love it.
Em: Um, there is a ghost named James. We like James a lot. Uh, he is a World War I soldier who is, I guess, a guest here at some point. And he is said to have died by suicide in the attic after he found out that the love of his love was married to someone else.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: And, this story is kind of assumed by the staff. They found like a vague obituary about a guy named James that this happened to, and they are pretty sure it happened in this building. They don’t know, but they do know there was a regular spirit around here that kind of matched the description they picked up on.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: They ended up– They just call him James, and he seems to be fine with it. Um, but their guess is that this is the James story.
Christine: I see.
Em: He apparently gravitates towards women. He’s very kind to women. Apparently, women, um, when they feel weird in the building, they will ask James to protect them while–
Christine: That’s nice.
Em: –while they’re there. Um, people have seen him standing at the foot of their bed. [laughs] Yikes.
Christine: Well, okay.
Em: That doesn’t feel very safe to me. Um, people have gotten an EVP of a man saying a woman’s name, and they think that that’s James saying his– the, the love of his life’s name.
Christine: Aw.
Em: Um, while he– When they first discovered James, he was constantly throwing things off of the walls–
Christine: Oh? Ohh.
Em: –especially this Uncle Sam World War I poster.
Christine: [gasps] Interesting.
Em: And that was– It was always whenever Bonnie would come into the house. Anytime she would like start her day.
Christine: Poor Bonnie. She’s just trying to vacuum. God.
Em: She was just like, “I’m just trying to open the fucking door to get in, and all of a sudden– Uncle Sam.”
Christine: She’s trying to preserve this damn building. Uncle Sam’s on the floor again.
Em: Uh, and what’s really creepy about that poster is doesn’t it say like, “I want you”? That Unc– Like that famous Uncle Sam poster?
Christine: “I want you,” yes.
Em: Eugh. I’d be terrified. If that’s the only poster that’s constantly flying off the wall when I walk in, and it says, “I want you.”
Christine: Yeah. I think it’s “I want you,” right?
Em: Think so.
Christine: Or “we want you…”
Em: “I want you for the–“
Christine: “I want you.” Yeah. “I want you for U.S. Army,” yeah.
Em: Yeah. No, thank you.
Christine: No, thanks.
Em: So, despite it saying, “I want you,” the way that she pieced it together was like, oh, maybe this ghost is attached to World War I. So–
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, for a while, he was constantly throwing things. And eventually, he threw the poster so hard off the wall that the glass shattered, and then Bonnie yelled at him.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And through enough spirit box sessions over the years, they realized that James just wanted acknowledgement from her when she came into work every day.
Christine: Mm.
Em: So, now every time Bonnie comes in, she says, “Hi, James.” And then, she f–
Christine: Aw.
Em: And then, she feels something pet her on the head like a, like a, “Hello.” And then–
Christine: He’s like, “Hello, friend. I won’t throw glass at you this time.”
Em: Yeah. And, and ever since then, he’s stopped throwing things. They, they just say hi to each other every morning, and that’s it. Um–
Christine: That’s actually kind of lovely.
Em: I’m, I’m totally down with a ghost where the worst he does is pet my head “hello.”
Christine: And just say greetings, yeah.
Em: Yeah. Um, okay. The last ghost I have for you: his name is Gary. And, he is also known as Mr. Nasty.
Christine: What? No, if this is another Winnie the Pooh like cinematic universe thing, I don’t wanna be part of it. Mr. Nasty.
Em: Now– I will say I watched one clip of something – I won’t even say what it is – um, but there was a, a woman who decided she wanted to investigate here. She was giving female Zak Bagans energy.
Christine: Oh, good. That must go well.
Em: And first thing in her 45 minute movie that I had to watch, was, uh, she said, “I wanna know how nasty Mr. Nasty gets.” [laughs]
Christine: Eww! [laughs] Good for you, okay?
Em: I didn’t– I want you to know the immediate response from me. I just went [sighs deeply] like–
[laughs]
Christine: You’re like, “We’re in for a long ride.”
Em: “Yeah, I guess I’m about to lose the next 40 minutes of my life.”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: So, um, anyway. So, the– He lives in the attic, and he is known as Mr. Nasty, by the way, because of his, um, “n-naughty language.” He apparently says some– He– I think he– He– Him and Tigger are friends, you know what I’m sayin’?
Christine: Naughty language, yeah.
Em: [laughs] So, he lives in the attic. M– We think the attic maybe was once like the enslaved people’s quarters?
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Um, not totally sure, but one can guess. It’s up on the fourth floor, and it’s the most active room in the house. It belongs pretty much alone to Gary/Mr. Nasty.
Christine: Ugh.
Em: I don’t know why we picked the name “Gary.” I don’t know any information on that.
Christine: Ugh.
Em: But, basically this entity showed up like 15 years ago when there was a donation to the building about– this like old actor’s Vaudeville trunk from 1885. And–
Christine: I hate this.
Em: Immediately, it was–
Christine: I hate this. Like, uh, this like villainy– This villainous scary character and now he also has like a costume and a cape or something. I don’t know.
Em: Actually, that’s a good point, yeah.
Christine: It like make it so much more sinister, like clown-like almost. You know?
Em: Oh, yeah.
Christine: Like Vaudeville’s supposed to be like showy, flashy, and now this fucking Mr. Creep– What’s his name?
Em: Mr. Nasty.
Christine: Mr. Nasty? It get– It’s literally so much worse. Mr. Nasty is a worst word.
Em: Can I do a sidebar for you and tell you something just equally horrifying?
Christine: Fine, if you must.
Em: I have, uh, a friend who I will text you the name of that you know.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: And, um, I was hanging out with her while I’m in town. And I was hanging out with her mom by myself for a little bit. I’m– I just grew up with everybody, so I also popped in to say hi to her mom. Her mom and I start talking about ghosts. The way that she was completely unfamiliar about our relationship with Zak Bagans was very clear because all she told me for the next like 20 minutes was how in love she is with Zak Bagans. [laughs]
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And she was like– She was giving Mr. Nasty vibes, if you know what I’m saying.
Christine: [laughs] Uh-huh.
Em: She was like– She’s like, “The way I would let Zak Bagans blah-blah-blah.”
Christine: Eugh! Yuck-o!
Em: And I was like, “Oh man. I, I don’t know how to tell you how I feel.”
Christine: Wait, and now– And this is your friend’s mom, right? Not friend.
Em: Yes. No, it’s my friend’s mom.
Christine: Okay, got it. That feels like a friend’s mom exactly type– It’s a perfect demographic.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: That’s like who– That’s who comments weird shit on his Instagram posts like– Remember when he would take pictures with like, um, what’s-her-name from, from Bunnies… Holly Madison.
Em: Oh, yeah.
Christine: A-and people would be like, “Get her out of here. She doesn’t love you like I would.” And it’s like, okay.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: You– Like you 50-year-old ladies–
Em: If you scroll far enough, my friend’s mom is certainly in the, in the comments.
Christine: [laughs] It’s like, come on.
Em: But the way she was talking about it was like, “You obviously have no awareness of my opinion of Zak Bagans.”
Christine: Yeah. [sing-song voice] Awkward! It’s fine!
Em: Anyway, I only remember that because I was just thinking when I saw that girl in that stupid show I watched last night go, “I wanna know how nasty he gets,” I was like, “Okay, insert name.”
Christine: Yeah, we get it. We get it, insert name. Yeah.
Em: Uh, so, anyway. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent, but I also– I needed to tell you. Um, okay. So, Mr. Nasty. [sighs] He, uh– Yes, he has the actor’s trunk from 1885. That’s when the energy kind of came in. But, uh, also kind of like James, it’s said that he died by suicide after losing the love of his life. But that was more like, uh, he found out the love of his life was cheating on him thing.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: And now he just hates women, of course.
Christine: Good.
Em: Um, so a lot of women who go into the attic are terrified of the attic. Sometimes, they become immediately sick. They have gotten grabbed, pinched, scratched, smacked in the face.
Christine: Oh my god.
Em: Um, he just does not like women. And a lot of times, people will just sense it from outside the attic. They just go, “I’m not fucking going in there.”
Christine: Noo. Oh, I hate that.
Em: Even staff members will– They go in like together. No one wants to go up there alone.
Christine: Do you wonder, well– Do you think– ’Cause my first thought is do you think he wants you to go in there, so he can like pinch you or whatever? Or do you think he’s like actively trying to push you away if you’re a woman? Or do you think like women just are like, “Bad vibes.” And he’s like, “No! Come on in.” I don’t know.
Em: I don’t know.
Christine: It’s a weird question, I guess, but–
Em: No, I, I would think he like just desperately doesn’t want them near him.
Christine: He just is like trying to push you aw– like, get out.
Em: I would imagine like if you’re just gonna constantly hurt people, you can’t expect them to wanna hang out with you afterwards, you know.
Christine: If you– Right, like– Yeah, yeah. I just don’t know if he loves– like if he wants to keep hurting people.
Em: Uh. Oh, does he like hurting them?
Christine: [laughs] Yeah, like–
Em: I would think–
Christine: He’s like, “Come on in, so I can slap you.” [laughs]
Em: I would think maybe he just– Maybe he can’t hide it. But, I would– If I were him, I would try to be like really charming and lure people in, so I can hurt them.
Christine: I guess so, yeah. That’s true. The bad vibes are probably what he’s intending to give off. Yeah, that’s, that’s fair.
Em: Mm. Well, people in the attic have also felt the entire room shake by itself. Uh, there’s an obvious heavy dark energy there. People early on saw a black mass s– like swirling around the truck.
Christine: You already got a doll, black mass.
Em: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: You don’t get a trunk too. Come on. Share with your friends.
Em: When he does come downstairs, ’cause he stays in the attic, but in moments where he has come downstairs, people notice because they feel s– like something in their face.
Christine: No.
Em: And something being really handsy and grabby at them.
Christine: Like get– Go back to your room, you know.
Em: Exactly. You have a whole floor to yourself.
Christine: You literally took over half the building.
Em: Some staff s– like, they try to play it off like, “Oh, he’s just moody and a prankster.” But then, others are like panic-stricken at the thought of being near him.
Christine: When people say like, “Oh, so-and-so’s a prankster.” I’m always like, red flag.
Em: Yes.
Christine: Explain what that means because I– Usually, I don’t want to be part of that, you know.
Em: Yeah. Like prankster like how? Speak on that. Speak on that.
Christine: Like how? Like speak on that. Like are we talking whoopee cushion max? That’s max level pranking?
Em: [laughs] Or demon?
Christine: Or are we talking like–
Em: Is all my furniture upside down?
Christine: I’m a, I’m a sexual harasser, you know. Which, which one is it?
Em: So, this spirit has gotten a lot calmer than it used to be because I guess the staff have now started writing like positive messages in the trunk and are trying to like infuse it with good energy basically.
Christine: Oh, oh gosh. I’m sure he loves that.
Em: But– But it– Yeah, but it also feels like one, you’re giving it attention. Two, you’re giving him gifts, so you’re encouraging the behavior. That’s what it feels to me, but I guess it’s working, so. Whatever.
Christine: Exactly. I mean, maybe they’re just appeasing him like, “Okay, now stay with your damn trunk.”
Em: Yeah. Well, Bonnie, the one who was like all about the ghosts here, she has even said that her and Mr. Nasty absolutely, to this day, do not get along. She only goes up there once a month to clean. And she literally said that the two of them have declared a, have declared a truce with each other that they just don’t go into each other’s spaces.
Christine: Wow. With that infernal machine. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Yeah. Um, so they’ve also said that the trunk– When it went into the attic, that’s when the attic started having a lot of problems, but originally, it was in different rooms and activity was heavier there. So, they know that the trunk is what the attachment–
Christine: Ohh.
Em: It is what the item is that–
Christine: Do you know that I literally last night almost bought a trunk from an estate sale? And it was so beautiful.
Em: [sighs]
Christine: And then my gut said, “Please don’t. Don’t.” So instead, I bought a bunch of old Victorian photographs.
Em: Good for you.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: See? [inaudible] You just gotta listen to your gut.
Christine: Now I’ve a briefcase full of Victorian pictures, so I think that’s probably a better bet than a trunk.
Em: Beautiful.
Christine: Less haunted, I’m sure.
Em: Well, so, the, the trunk– Knowing that that’s what the attachment is, people have even moved the trunk around to see if the spirit will follow it, and it does, which is super creepy.
Christine: No.
Em: Like meters will go off in different rooms, and–
Christine: I do like that it’s attached to it, so you can kinda like–
Em: Put it in the dumpster?
Christine: Put it outside– [laughs] Yeah, put it in the chur– Put it in the swamp? I don’t know.
Em: Uh, some staff say that there’s actually something even scarier up in the attic than Mr. Nasty, but they don’t know what it is. That terrifies me.
Christine: Oh! Well, that’s bad news.
Em: They said that like, “Oh, yeah, well, you know, Mr. Nasty and I have like an understanding, and we don’t really like each other, but I’m not scared of him. And there’s something else up there that I am actually truly scared of.” Eugh.
Christine: That’s really upsetting.
Em: Well, the final thing I have for you which I know that you’ll love is that, um, there are, uh– I looked everywhere because I saw in all these articles like, “Oh, it’s been on an episode of Ghost Hunters. It’s been on an episode of a show called Haunted Tours. There were a few documentaries made about this house.” Fucking none of them I can find online. Fucking none of them.
Christine: What?
Em: And like, literally like Ghost Hunters, like that’s a pretty easy to find show.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Couldn’t find it.
Christine: Huh.
Em: But, only one show was I able to find. And, uh, that is, I think, your favorite, Kindred Spirits, starring Chip Coffey.
Christine: I thought we were going Ghost Adventures, and I prepared my face as such. So let me take a moment.
Em: Chip Coffey.
Christine: Yes! I fucking love that show.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And honestly, I drank out of my, my coffee mug the other day, my Chip Coffey mug–
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: –that, uh, a listener sent in– sent to me, and it’s just got me all giddy again about how much I just love this bescarfed fellow.
Em: You know, he– [laughs] bescarfed.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Um, can you g– Can you on your Etsy page–
Christine: Beshawled? I don’t know.
Em: –make a, make a scarf, and it just says “bescarfed" all over it?
Christine: Bescarfed or beshawled. I don’t know which–
Em: Wait, can you do– Can you do a picture within a picture within a picture of like a scarf with Chip Coffey on it wearing a scarf with Chip Coffey on it with a scarf with Chip Coffey–
Christine: Done and done.
Em: Now, that is something else. I’ll tell you.
Christine: Done and done.
Em: Um, okay, so, I looked everywhere for other episodes. Kindred Spirits was the one that was most like heavily advertised, I guess.
Christine: That means I’ve probably watched it ‘cause I have watched every episode of that show.
Em: Oh, then maybe you’ve watched it.
Christine: But it’s– But I’ve watched them all– I used to watch them in a drunken wine haze, so I don’t know that I recall the details, but–
Em: Well, for those who don’t know, this was like one of my first times watching Kindred Spirits, but it stars like Amy and Adam, right?
Christine: It’s so good. Yeah.
Em: And then, every now and then, it seems like Chip Coffey comes in. He’s not like the main character?
Christine: Yeah, he’s like their on call. Like, he– he’s like their on call where they’re like, “Oh, we gotta bring in an expert.” And Chip Coffey and his scarf–
Em: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine: Which makes it so much better ’cause he’s like, [sing-song voice] “I’m here!” And it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t know Chip was coming today!” [laughs] You know, it just is so exciting.
Em: [laughs] Well, before the investigation, Au–Autumn is on the show, the, the employee there.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: She’s on the show. She’s immediately like– She’s going through it. Something is freaking her out upstairs. We find out that it’s the attic Mr. Nasty guy. But she’s like fully panicked. She doesn’t even really wanna be there. So, they do an Estes Method, and they, they– Both are getting touched and pinched the entire time during the Estes Method. But, in the Estes Method through the spirit box, they get, um, Adam telling them, “Hey, stop pinching Amy.” And they get, “No, so bad, cut her.”
Christine: [gasps] Oh god.
Em: Then, they ask what the ghost’s name is. The spirit box says, “Leave.” When they say, “No,” the spirit box says, “That’s fucked up.”
Christine: [laughs] Okay, bro.
Em: [laughs] And then, and then they say, “People are really uncomfortable about you.” And then the spirit box says, “Fantastic, fuck you!” And then– And then both of them–
Christine: [laughs] Fantastic! Let ‘em think what they want.
Em: And then both of them get touched and pinched again. So, they bring in the big guns: Chip Coffey with his scarf.
Christine: Yeah. Here he comes.
Em: And I had never totally interacted with this man before. I get it now.
Christine: You get it now? [laughs]
Em: ’Cause he, he went into every room, and he’s doing like a, like kind of like a drive-by medium moment to–
Christine: Drive-by med– [laughs] Yeah, yeah.
Em: And so, he, uh, he goes into a room, and he’s like, “There’s something residual here.”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And then he goes into another room and goes, “This isn’t really a very interactive spot.” And then he goes into this room, and he’s like, “Oh, yeah. There’s something here, but it’s not really that big of a deal.” And then he gets to the attic, and he turns to camera, and he goes, “Hello!”
[laughs]
Christine: No, it’s like, it’s like so epic. It’s– Every time he’s on, I’m like, “You bring so much light into my life. I don’t know how you do it, Chip, but man.” It really does brighten my day.
Em: [laughs] It was also just in the gayest wa– like the gayest little voice ever like “Hello!”
Christine: Okay– “Hello!” And I think what I love about his, his role on that show specifically also is– ‘Cause he was in, um, Psychic Kids, too and uh, he, he– I think it’s Amy and Adam are so like down-to-earth and like very, um, sincere and genuine. And they’re great, like they’re fun and bubbly, but they’re like very serious about like ghost hunting. Like they’re not there to like punch the walls like some people.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: They’re just very– Like they take it very seriously and like kind of scientifically approach. And when Chip Coffey like kind of comes in flamboyantly, it really just like changes the dynamic. I just– Man.
Em: Just like, we need him, but the energy is definitely different.
Christine: The formula. It’s just impeccable. “Hello!” [laughs]
Em: Well, so– [laughs] He tr– He truly w– “I found her!”
Christine: [laughs] “Mr. Nasty, hello! Nice to meet ya!”
Em: Maybe [unintelligible] [flirty voice] “Mr. Nasty!”
Christine: He would probably name him Mr. Nasty. That seems like something Chip Coffey would come up with. Yeah.
Em: [laughs] Well, so they go into the attic, and he– This is a quote from him, uh, getting a read of the room. He goes, “Whatever’s in here is pacing or darting. It’s getting irritable, definitely not residual. It’s saying, ‘Leave us the fuck alone, and leave our secrets alone. Get the fuck out.’ You’re getting its attention. He corrects–“ And then he says, “He actually corrects me. His attention.”
Christine: [gasps]
Em: Eugh.
Christine: Pronouns, Chip!
Em: Uh, thank you, Chip.
Christine: Thank you for normalizing pronouns, Mr. Nasty.
Em: [laughs] Yeah. And so, the– They realize the trunk has an attachment to it, so they move it downstairs. The sensors start freaking out. It– The sensors turn off when intell– Uh, they turn off intelligently when you ask it to. Um, and then they decide that they’re gonna do another Estes Method where Amy says she feels something menacing next to her like she wants to run.
Christine: Uh-oh.
Em: In the Estes Method, they ask, “What do you want us– What do you want to say to us?” And then the spirit box says, “Not telling.”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: When Autumn says, “Why do you like to scare me?” They hear, uh, the spirit box say, “I’m sorry.” And then they ask, “Why is Autumn the person that triggers you so much?” The spirit box says, “Stop.” And then when they ask, “Why are you with this trunk?” They hear, “Hit him.”
Christine: [gasps] What?
Em: Eugh! And that’s the Kindred Spirits episode. So.
Christine: Ugh.
Em: I tried really hard to give you a short story. It’s literally been an hour and half. I’m so sorry. That is–
Christine: Uh, listen, we know, we knew this would happen. It’s always when we watch a show or a movie about something because we just want to tell the other person the whole thing. It’s like exciting and fun. And you know I love my Kindred Spirits and–
Em: Well, also, you know how paranoid I am when people are like, you know, making nasty comments about how I’m– I don’t try hard enough, so anyway.
Christine: Who’s making these comments? Tell me.
Em: All I will, I will say, I– Thank you to everybody who said such nice things to me. Uh, I ended up getting a bit of, uh, the floodgates opening in my DMs of people saying nice things to counteract the nasty things.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: So, I re– I, I read your messages. I really appreciate you guys saying such nice things to me. That was very kind. I was having a, a bit of a dark moment like a week ago whenever that episode came out where I said that I was getting some hateful stuff, which I, I was, but I– It has been counteracted, so thank you.
Christine: Oh, good. Um, yeah. I don’t ever–
Em: Open your DMs, I know. I got–
Christine: I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t. But I don’t think I’ve seen anything nasty in there. I mean, I think if I saw something that looked nasty, I would open it and read it. But I feel like people have been genuinely pretty kind.
Em: I think– I, I don’t– I, I luckily don’t look at Reddit anymore. I thought I was safe, but I guess I’m– Nowhere is totally safe, so. Anyway.
Christine: I don’t know.
Em: It made me very happy to see people say nice things, but, uh, hopefully the people who don’t know if I do my research or not: there you go. There’s a big ass story for you. So that is the May-Stringer House.
Christine: Maybe one day, we’ll have a– Maybe one day, we’ll have a snark page on Reddit.
Em: Mm!
Christine: But I think we haven’t made it quite to that echelon of fame yet. Um.
Em: Maybe not.
Christine: But maybe someday. Or maybe there is one. [under breath] ATWWD snark.
Em: Do you need a, a potty break or anything? Because I know that was long.
Christine: Oh, I think I said something rude about Disney. Sorry.
Em: When?
Christine: I typed in “snark,” and it said I was being snarky about Disney, I think. And I was like, yeah, I probably was. [laughs] I tried to see if there was a–
Em: Oh. I, I literally just talked about Winnie the Pooh being a murderer, so.
Christine: And I said I fucking hate that ’cause I love Winnie the Pooh. So, you know. I guess what I’m saying is take everything we say with a grain of salt. Sometimes, we just say things. And maybe that’s not for the best. But sometimes, we say things and then forget we say them and then say the opposite the week after.
[glass clinks - start of ad break]
[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]
[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]
Christine: So, I’ve a story for you today. This is the story of Lee Harvey and Tracie Andrews. And, I’m not going to give anything away ‘cause there are a few plot twists. So, I’m just going to jump right into it.
Lee Harvey. He met Tracie Andrews when he was 23-years-old, and she was 25. The year was [in film noir accent] 1994.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And he was working as a bus driver in Birmingham, uh, which is a city over– of over a million people in the West Midlands of England, uh, not to be confused with [in Southern accent] Birmingham, Alabama–
Em: Right. [laughs]
Christine: –where my aunt lives. Birm–
Em: Really?
Christine: Birmingham.
Em: Oh, Aunt, Aunt Pam?
Christine: No. [laughs]
Em: Oh.
Christine: Grandma, Grandma Pam lives in western New York. Uncle Wally and Tante Angelika live in Birmingham, Alabama. [in Southern accent] Birmingham, Alabama.
Em: Gotcha.
Christine: And, I don’t know who lives in [in British accent] Birmingham, but I’m sure someone’s aunt lives there.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So, with that, context. Tracie worked as a bartender. Again, she’s 25. She’s working as a bartender. She has aspirations to become a model. Um, she’d already done some local work modeling for hair salons in the city. I mean, very 80’s-90’s like bangs, poofy hair, red lipstick. Just the whole nine yards. Blonde.
Em: Oh! I’m so excited for big hair to come back. I’m so excited.
Christine: I am not ’cause I have just the flattest hair on the planet. But, you know, it’s okay.
Em: I have the most Jewish, voluminous, Mufasa-mane hair. I can’t wait for that to just be normal again.
Christine: Yeah. Just bring it back, baby.
Em: Just, just a big poof.
Christine: Em, make the change you wish to see in the world.
Em: Oh! My god. Oh.
Christine: Come on. Step it up.
Em: Okay. Okay.
Christine: So, Lee, meanwhile, he was described by friends as a family man. And he– As a bus driver, he liked working a local job that kept him close. He was really close with his parents, his older sister, as well as his sister’s husband and child. In his free time, he was always going out with his friends. They loved going out clubbing. Um, Birmingham, apparently, has really good nightlife. And Lee’s friends all described him as outgoing, tall, fit, gorgeous. Um, he was like just a hunk of a dude. He often– I think he had one earring, and in the 90’s, you know, that was all the rage for guys.
Em: Ohh.
Christine: Um, he often stayed out late, drinking and dancing with his friends. And then, everyone would go back to Lee’s parents’ house. Remember, he’s 23. And then his mother, Maureen, would make snacks for everybody.
Em: The dream.
Christine: And this is like three in the morning. Like they would come home in the middle of the night. She would wake up, make them all snacks, and go back to bed. And he was–
Em: Sounds like a dream life.
Christine: Seriously, what the hell? He was extremely close with Maureen, his mom. They talked about everything, including his sex life, which some people thought was a little strange, but Maureen was very happy that he felt comfortable to confide in her, um, even though he had a very colorful dating experience. Um, for example, she wrote in–
Em: Mr. Nasty.
Christine: [laughs] No! Em!
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Well, maybe, ’cause she wrote in her book that Lee was “a good-looking lad who’d bedded more women than he’d had hot dinners.”
Em: Holy shit.
Christine: About her son. [laughs]
Em: Go, Lee, I guess. I don’t know. [laughs]
Christine: I’m just like– Alright. Go, Lee. When he was 20, Lee and his former girlfriend, Anita, were surprised by an unplanned pregnancy, but he was very excited to be a dad. So, they ended the romantic relationship, but they remained friends, and they coparented. And their daughter, Danielle, he loved her. He was– She would spend weekends at Lee’s parents’ home with him, and the family just loved being together. Um, Maureen loved being a grandma to Danielle. Uh, he was never too busy for like tea parties. I don’t know if he had to go to the other room to count to ten like I do. But, uh, appare–
Em: [laughs] Probably.
Christine: [laughs] Probably, but he played a lot of like make-believe games and just played with her, you know. Very like hands-on dad. And, so when he met Tracie, she’s 25. He’s 23. She also had a young daughter close to Danielle’s age. And so, they kind of bonded over that when they met at a nightclub. And, when they met, they were both excited to have like this– something so in common. Their daughters were like a year apart. They’re both really young and love to– love nightlife, but they both have a kid. Like they just felt like it clicked right away. Um, and the girls themselves became close friends. They had sleepover– I mean, that’s dream life, right? Like you meet a partner, and their kid and your kid become best friends. And it’s like, “Easy-peasy. Now you’re sisters.” [laughs] Just–
Em: It– T-truly a dream. That kinda happened in my– Well, it worked out very well. I already knew my stepsisters before they became my stepsisters, so it was like, “Oh, now we’re just friends who happen to have a new title.”
Christine: That’s interesting. I knew my Uncle Wally. In fact, I called him Uncle Wally before he was ever my Uncle Wally, and then, one day, he married my aunt, and I said, “Wait a minute. Does that make him our actual uncle?”
Em: Yeah, that worked out a little too perfectly.
Christine: And everyone went, “Oh, yeah.” [laughs] Like, “That’s weird. It’s like we manifested it.”
Em: That worked out pretty good.
Christine: Yeah. So, uh, the girls were really close. They had sleepovers, and they even took them on trips together. Um, like I said, the– Tr– Lee and Tracie met in a club because they both were very like nightlife type people. Um, Tracie herself, was described as very glamorous. Remember, she had, uh, aspirations.
Em: Big poofy hair.
Christine: Uh, big poofy hair. Aspirations of becoming a model. Um, she wore very like elaborate outfits. She never went anywhere without a full face of makeup. Um, and basically, people saw the two of them and said like, “They make a stunning couple.” That was kind of the impression they made on people. Um, even Maureen, Lee’s mom, was– believed he was mistaking his attraction to Tracie and their attention for deeper feelings. Like she was like, this is a shallow relationship from the start.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Let’s just say Maureen wasn’t so sure.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Uh, apparently, Maureen, knowing all of his colorful dating past, said in an interview that she didn’t see what was so special about Tracie. [laughs]
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Uh, which has really gotta hurt. Uh–
Em: Shots fired.
Christine: Yeah. But that Lee was an adult who could choose his own girlfriends, and she was like, “You know what? I’ll just accept that choice.” And Lee insisted that he and Tracie were in love, so his mom said, “Alright, whatever you say.” So, it was only six months after they met that Lee proposed to Tracie and moved in with her in her home in Alvechurch, just outside of Birmingham. They were both excited to settle down, focus on each other, raising their two daughters who had now bonded like sisters. And it felt like a perfect family. But on December 1st, 1996, a man stepped outside a house on Coopers Hill, which is a quiet, tree-lined road in Alvechurch. It was roughly 11 pm, and he had heard a woman screaming.
Em: Oh god.
Christine: He rushed to the sound and found Tracie in the street, standing over Lee who was lying on the pavement.
Em: Noo.
Christine: Both of them were covered in blood. But, Lee was dead.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Tracie was injured as well. She was in shock. The man brought her inside to wait for the police and paramedics. And when they arrived, Tracie was taken to the hospital by ambulance where she was treated for cuts on her face and two pretty prominent black eyes. Um, it appeared as though she had been struck in the face multiple times by an attacker.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So, once she had been treated and had a chance to use a bathroom, gather her thoughts, Tracie spoke to the police finally and gave them a rundown of what she remembered happening that night. She said she and Lee were headed home from a pub just after 10 pm. The pub was only ten minutes from their house, uh, along a very familiar path. And the drive should have been as eventful as always, but while Tracie apparently went into the glove depa– glove compartment for a CD she wanted to play, she started hearing Lee curse like under his breath. So, she kinda sits up and looks, and she sees he’s cussing into the rearview mirror because there’s this car, apparently, f– like tailing them from the pub.
Em: Mm.
Christine: And the driver flashed their lights repeatedly and began tailgating them. And when they didn’t back off, Lee got pissed off, and he started, you know, brake-checking the car by, you know, slamming on the brakes as it was really close to try and get them to rear-end him. And the other car started swerving erratically, honking, trying to get around them, but Lee blocked the road. And Tracie is like terrified. She’s like, “Please, just let them pass. Calm down. Don’t get into like an altercation.” She said as they sped up a dark tree-lined road in a spot called Coopers Hill, the car overtook them, swerved in front, and stopped in the middle of the road.
Em: Oh shit.
Christine: Lee slammed on his brakes to avoid a collision, and, as soon as he stopped, he was out in the road, shouting at the other driver who also came out of his vehicle which was a dark Ford Sierra.
Em: Shit.
Christine: While the men argued, a third man climbed out of the Sierra’s passenger seat and started punching Lee, while the other driver just stood back and watched. So, Tracie jumps out of the car to intervene, and the passenger, apparently, shouted at her, calling her a “slut,” punched her in the face. Tracie fell and lost consciousness for a moment and watched in a daze as both men jumped in their truck and drove off. So, she reached for Lee. She felt that he was all wet, and she heard him making a sound that she later described as gurgling and realized his throat had been slashed and he was losing enormo– enormous amounts of blood very quickly.
Em: Oh man.
Christine: In other words, that passenger had not been punching Lee but had been–
Em: Stabbing.
Christine: –stabbing him. Tracie later said she went into complete shock but instinctively used what she had learned in a first aid course to try to stop the bleeding. But, Lee had been stabbed 42 times in the–
Em: Holy shit.
Christine: –head, neck, and back. His arteries were severed. He had already lost way too much blood to survive. She sat, just basically cradling him for a moment, trying to comfort him, and at some point, she just started screaming. Um, and by the time help arrived, of course, the attackers were long gone, and Lee had passed.
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: So Tracie– Yeah. So, Tracie’s telling police this story, and she says the only passenger– Uh, that only the passenger was involved in the attack, and she described him as an older, overweight man with “staring eyes.” And like, staring eyes was something that like wasn’t made clear in any of the articles, but I watched a, uh, a couple documentaries or like docuseries or, you know, shorts on YouTube about this an– about this story, and when you watch the actual interviews with her, she describes the staring eyes, and it makes more sense. Like she basically says like he had these like big eyes that bore right into you. You know what I mean?
Em: Mm.
Christine: Like, these like really intense gazing eyes. Um, and so when she described staring eyes, that’s kin– She kinda like did this with her eyes, which is how I kind of gathered what she meant. Investigators thought it would be impossible for such a dramatic scene to have no witnesses, so they needed to find someone who could just come forward with information. So, they started publishing descriptions of the incidents, the cars, the attacker, um, the staring eyes, the details of the route they took that night. And a media storm immediately erupted around the case. They called it “the road rage killing,” and it was shocking. Like people were captivated because they had these photos of this beautiful young woman. She has black eyes.
Em: Mm.
Christine: She’s brutalized. She’s traumatized. And people were just totally taken by this story and how hor– horrific it was. Meanwhile, of course, Lee’s family is grappling with the nightmare of losing him so tragically.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: He’s 23 or 24. I mean, he’s really young. Um, Tracie stayed with her mom, Irene, who said Tracie didn’t sleep for days following the attack. Um, at a press conference shortly after Lee was killed, Tracie held Maureen’s hand. So, this was, uh, Lee’s mother. So, Tracie’s now holding basically her mother-in-law’s hand, um, in front of cameras, pleading for someone to come forward with information on the murderer. She even personally addressed the driver from that night, asking him to turn in the passenger who attacked them. And this struck people as kind of odd. She kept saying, “You are not to blame, and I know that.” About the dr–
Em: What?
Christine: About the driver.
Em: What does that mean?
Christine: Like she kept saying, “You’re not the one who hurt him, so you won’t be in trouble. But the passenger will be.”
Em: Oh, okay.
Christine: And he like–
Em: Like you weren’t, I guess, physically involved.
Christine: Right. So like–
Em: But also, you were still the asshole driving like that.
Christine: You, you were the one who swerved and just like watched as someone stabbed a guy.
Em: Like, was it, was it just like, like just a really bad bout of road rage? Is that what happened?
Christine: I mean, that’s what people called it. They called it a road ra– “the road rage killing,” you know?
Em: It just– It just doesn’t make se– I mean, maybe I’ve just never lived with road rage like that at least. I– It, it– I feel like there had to be– Were they drunk? Did– I don’t know.
Christine: I dunno.
Em: It just– It feels like something else had to be going on. On an empty road? Come on.
Christine: Could, could be. Could be. She said, “You are not to blame, and I know that.” And people were like, “That’s odd.” So, on December 4th, a detective went to Irene’s home to speak with Tr– her daughter, Tracie, but Tracie apparently had finally fallen asleep that morning after days without sleep, so Irene said, “Come back another time please.” Um, but, while the detective spoke to Tracie’s family, Irene actually found a note Tracie had written to her daughter apologizing for taking her own life–
Em: Mm.
Christine: –and said she is going to be with Lee now. So t– th– Literally, as the detective is talking to Tracie’s mom, Tracie’s mom finds a note somewhere in the house – in the kitchen, I don’t know – that says, “Sorry for taking my own life.” So, the detective rushes up to Tracie’s bedroom, and she is unconscious. She has taken over 200 pills.
Em: Holy shit. I was really hoping that that was like a preemptive note she hadn’t actually fulfilled yet. Oh my god.
Christine: It was like moments earlier, I presume, or shortly before.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Um, she had taken 200 pills, approximately. And according to Irene, Tracie died more than once in the ambulance on the way to the hospital but, thankfully, was successfully revived and stabilized against the odds. So, days later, investigators on the case shocked Tracie’s family and the media when they got to the hospital where Tracie was recovering–
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: –and arrested her.
Em: [gasps] No!
Christine: Yes.
Em: She paid for them to do it!
Christine: They were forced to wait more than a week though because Tracie was in an intensive psychiatric care, uh, unit. And then, once she had, you know, made it through that process, the police announced that Tracie was being charged with Lee’s murder.
Em: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Christine: So, the announcement to everybody else seemed completely out of left field, but Tracie’s story to the police had basically begun to unravel almost immediately after the murder. Like you said, something sounds fishy. Something sounds off. Uh, basically, at the first press conference when she pleaded to the media for witnesses and started saying things like, “We know you’re not in trouble. Just come forward.” And they were like, “Oh, that’s strange. Doesn’t she want, uh, the guy who killed her–? Whatever.” So, people were like, “That’s odd, but who knows.” You know, she’s in shock. She’s been traumatized. But then, a memb– During that same press conference, a member of the press asked Tracie questions about the timeline of that night and mentioned Tracie and Lee leaving the pub at 10:10 pm.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But Tracie corrected him and said, “No, no, no. It was ten ’til ten.” So, it was 9:50. And the reporter was confused because police had told the press that Lee and Tracie left for home at 10:10 pm based on Tracie’s recollection.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So, you know, it wasn’t unusual for the victim of an attack, especially like someone who had suffered head trauma, to like mix up a timeline. But again, the pub was only ten minutes from their home, and the emergency phone call hadn’t come until 11:00 pm.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So, they were like, “Well, now you’re adding 20 more minutes on to this timeline basically. Instead of from 10:10 to 11:00 that this event would have all–
Em: Right.
Christine: It– It c– It conspired. Now it– She’s saying it was 9:50.
Em: But there’s like 20 minutes more. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. 20 more minutes. And so, that was like a dramatic shift because it created a huge gap that like they couldn’t account for. Like if Tracie and Lee left the bar, sped down the road, stopped, and were attacked in that ten minute drive, then what’s happening in that hour that’s left, you know, between screaming and calling for help?
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So, there was already a significant chunk of unaccounted for time in the original story, but now these extra 20 minutes are starting to raise eyebrows. And people are like, “Well, that’s just strange.” So, as the journals– journalist is like asking questions, trying to make sense of this, Tracie starts getting worked up, and the detective just ends the questioning. But that moment when they watched it, Lee’s family, they knew. They knew. They were certain suddenly that Tracie had killed Lee.
Em: That’s wild.
Christine: They had suspected it from the beginning.
Em: Well, also they kind of suspected bad energy from the beginning of the relationship. Even the mom was like, “I don’t know, Lee. This doesn’t make sense.”
Christine: Yes. Exactly. So, Maureen, the mom, she– I mean, I understand why. She really wanted to believe Tracie because like how horrible would it be to believe the real story.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: She really wanted to, and like I said, they were holding hands during the press conference. Like she really wanted to believe her daughter-in-law, but Lee’s father and sister immediately suspected Tracie as soon as they found out that he had been murdered.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Because for two years, they had witnessed Tracie’s and Lee’s tumultuous relationship. Lee and Tracie would fight so often and yell so loudly that neigh– neighbors basically said they might as well have been out in the yard screaming. They could understand and hear everything they were saying. Maureen insisted that Lee had never hit Tracie, but he did shout at her and throw things around the apartment while they fought.
Em: Uh-oh.
Christine: So, already bad red flag. Tracie, however, was very often known to become physical. She had often scratched Lee in the face. She had punched him numerous times. Police intervened in their fights more than once, even removed Lee from the home at one point. And he would–
Em: Damn.
Christine: –usually go to stay with his parents until Tracie called him to sort things out, and then he would move back in with her. So, it was like a very toxic abuse cycle of just like this toxic couple that are both abusive toward one another and then just keep getting back together. And his family– There’s like– They were like out of– They have no control. They’re– Just have to let him do what he wants to do. Tracie, apparently, uh, reported Lee– Once hit Lee with a bottle in the middle of a night club.
Em: Jesus.
Christine: Uh, a glass bottle. And security had to intervene, uh, of course. And then another time, security intervened when she basically launched herself at him for talking to a woman who was working behind the bar. And, during that altercation, she bit him in the neck so hard that he started bleeding.
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: And Lee’s parents just felt helpless. Like they wanted to protect him from this relationship, but like he’s an adult, and he keeps going back to it. And it’s like, you can’t force somebody out of a relationship.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So the family often argued about Lee’s relationship while he just continuously assured them things would get better, they’d make it work, they’d work it out, they’d do counseling, what have you. The last time Maureen saw Lee, he had come over to get some clothes he left behind from the last time he had moved out after an argument with Tracie.
Em: [sighs] Jeez.
Christine: Yeah. So he told Maureen, “Don’t worry. I’m just back to get my stuff, and this time it’s gonna be good.” You know?
Em: Yeah. “I’ll drop it off next week when I’m back here again.”
Christine: Yeah, exactly. “See you in a few days.” I know. It’s just– It’s like one of those cycles you just hate to witness. He told Maureen he loved Tracie, things would be okay. And despite everything she knew about Tracie and the way she treated Lee, Maureen said in an interview that she wanted to believe Tracie’s story. She wanted Lee to have died in the arms of his comforter, not his killer.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Like she didn’t want his last moments to have been at the hands of his love. You know, I mean, that’s just terrible.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But the evidence just did not line up. Because a few things: there was a clump of hair in Lee’s hand as if he’d ripped it out of her scalp in a fight.
Em: [gasps] O-oh! Oh my god. That’s really fucking aggressive.
Christine: There wa– Really brutal. There was another clump of hair stuck to her own jacket with Lee’s blood.
Em: [gasps] Oh.
Christine: Like plastered on with his blood. Tracie said her clothes had become saturated with Lee’s blood while she held him, but a lot of the blood on her clothes had been spattered or splashed as if she was in close range to blood spray as it came off of Lee toward her.
Em: Oh shit. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Christine: There was a winter hat kind of away, like 20 feet from the car, on the side of the road. It was, it was just like kind of discarded there. Um, but when detectives looked at it, they noticed black and white cat hair inside the hat that matched a sample collected from Tracie’s own cat. And at first, she was saying, “That’s not my hat.” But, when they found the cat hair, she said, “Oh, yeah. That is my hat.” And they believed she had tossed it, you know, 20 feet away to make it look as though there was another party at the scene who had dropped their hat.
Em: Ohh.
Christine: [laughs] But then they found her own cat’s hair on the hat, and she was like, “Oh, yeah. That is mine. I don’t know how it got over there.”
Em: Okay, yeah. Not even goo– Like if you’re going to pull something like this off, you have to have– You have to know your own alibi. Like you have to–
Christine: Well, but, think about it. It’s a moment of passion, right? Like she just was like probably in a panic.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Like she– I don’t think this was premeditated. As much as they fought all the time, it sounds like it just went too far.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So finally, after searching for these witnesses, uh, witnesses did come forward to describe what they had seen that night, and it was not what, you know, Tracie had described. Essentially, people in the area described having seen only one vehicle – and it happened to be Tracie’s and Lee’s – driving down the road.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: In fact, another driver actually watched as Lee sped by a fork in the road and then slammed on the brakes, apparently having taken the wrong– having taken the wrong fork in the road–
Em: Mm.
Christine: –sped backwards, slammed the brakes a second time, then sped forward again down the other road. And there was no second car, but he was driving erratically and angrily.
Em: I see.
Christine: You know, whether or not– This is what this other driver witnessed, and they said, “Yes, he was slamming on the brakes and driving erratically, but there was not another car involved. This was just the one.”
Em: Interesting. So the, the two men in the car – totally made up.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: ‘Kay.
Christine: Yep, yep. So when the police responded to the scene, Lee’s car was parked neatly on the side of the road as if he had parked there deliberately, not as if he’d been like stopped in the middle of the road and had to sli– you know, slam–
Em: There’s no like slam brakes, skid marks, yeah.
Christine: –skid marks, yeah. None of that. So the missing piece of evidence that challenged the prosecution, of course, was the murder weapon because that could not be found. Now, detectives suspected a small pocket blade or even a pair of scissors on a Swiss Army knife–
Em: That’s it? Really?
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Mm.
Christine: As being what, what had, what had killed him, but they couldn’t find a weapon even after extensive searches, um, by teams like on their hands and knees, digging through dirt and leaves trying to find it.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Uh, so what they concluded– Now, here’s the thing.
Em: What?
Christine: During her hospital stay, she went to use the bathroom multiple times.
Em: Ohh.
Christine: And they weren’t sure why, and they believe that during one of those times, she had found a way to dispose of the knife, uh, the murder weapon in the bathroom.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Um, I mean, I don’t know about the ‘90s, but now there’s those sharps containers. You could probably just– boop! You know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: No one will know. Biohazard.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So, in July 1997, the case went to trial, and, despite the lack of a murder weapon, Tracie was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison with a possibility for parole. Um, in 1999, she wrote a letter to her lawyer, confessing to killing Lee.
Em: Oh, shit. Okay, well, that– Ding-ding-ding.
Christine: There you have it. She did claim, however, that it was an act of self-defense.
Em: Mm. [unintelligible] Maybe. Okay.
Christine: Maybe, we’ll see. According to her new story, Lee parked the car. Both of them got out, started shouting at each other. She said Lee pushed her down onto the pavement and pulled out a pocket knife. She said she kneed him, took the knife, and turned it on Lee to save her own life. And she also admitted to disposing of the knife in the hospital.
Em: Oh, okay.
Christine: So, investigators took one look at this and said, “Mm, no.” Because Lee was stabbed in the back repeatedly as if he had been caught completely off guard by the attack.
Em: Mm. Gotcha.
Christine: And she had come up behind him with her own weapon and had attacked him.
Em: Well, also why is she admitting this at all? Like, I feel like this is to cover–
Christine: ’Cause now she’s trying to say, “Oh, well, I did do it, but like because it was self-defense, you know. It’s not the same.”
Em: Oh, oh, oh. I see.
Christine: ’Cause she was found guilty of murder.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So she’s like, “Yeah, okay. Fine. But like, it wasn’t cold-blooded murder. It was in self-defense. Get me outta here.”
Em: Right.
Christine: And they were like, “No. You stabbed him in the back. But, thanks for admitting you did it, you know. That’s helpful.”
Em: Whew! All right.
Christine: In the years following Tracie’s sentencing, Lee’s family fought to make sure she couldn’t live near them if she were ever released. They just couldn’t stand the thought of her being like around, in town, in the same places that they were. They wanted a 50 mile buffer, but the court only granted them a 25 mile buffer. The court also said that Tracie might be allowed to visit her daughter, Karla, who lived only a few miles from Lee’s family, but this devastated Maureen because she was just so terrified that she would just go out for a walk and see Tracie in the neighborhood, like the, the woman who killed her son, stabbed her son, and then held her hand dur– at a press conference, and lied about it.
Em: Mm.
Christine: I mean, it’s gotta be such a mindfuck. In 2010, Lee’s daughter, Danielle, said in an interview that she had actually found Tracie’s daughter, Karla, on Facebook. So the two sisters who had like bonded as kids and then got like split when–
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: –their father was killed and their mother went to prison, now they had reconnected in 2010. And, so Danielle reached out, uh, and they spoke about their parents and what had happened. And then, they decided to focus on happier topics. Um, interestingly, both women were pregnant and were due within just weeks of each other at the time that they reconnected.
Em: Wow.
Christine: And Danielle said she hoped their futures would be happier than their pasts. But, she also said there’s just this like nagging like– She just wants to know why Tracie killed her father.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Like she, she just is like, “I wish I had some sort of answer or closure.” But it’s unclear if that’ll ever happen or if they can ever make sense of the attack. Tracie ended up being released from prison after serving 14 years of her life sentence. Um, she has since changed her name multiple times and gotten married.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Upon Tracie’s release, Maureen struggled when she saw photos of Tracie in the news and heard her– heard that she was spending time with her daughter and her grandkid. And Maureen said it was just so unfair that she can only visit her own son in a cemetery and will never meet his grandchildren.
Em: [sighs] Yeah.
Christine: She said, “I could lie to you and say I don’t hate her, but I can’t lie to myself and God about what’s in my heart. I can never forgive her,” says Maureen.
Em: No one judges you.
Christine: “You think the tears will stop with time, but they don’t.”
Em: Yeah, no one judges you for hating her.
Christine: No, no. If you’re gonna hate anyone, it might as well be your son’s murderer, right? Like.
Em: You got a good reason to hate someone. Yeah.
Christine: But I wanna send– That was the end of the story, but I wanna send you a picture because this is kind of what people have started– the picture people started using of her because remember how she said the eyes? You know, like the, the staring eyes?
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Or the whatever eyes?
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So, this is the picture that went like viral at the time.
Em: Well, it, it’s in– I– You know she’s probably gotten that comment from people before for her to also th– Oh my fucking god.
Christine: Crazy eyes, you know?
Em: Wow. That’s– You can’t hide from that.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: You can’t hide from, from those eyes. That’s, uh– She like on drugs or? Like is something going on there, or that’s just what she looks like?
Christine: I– She was just screaming at the press.
Em: Wow.
Christine: It was during the press conference. I think she was– A– That was during a press conference. I believe she was explaining the, the crime and saying, “We better find out who did this to my husband and– or my–” Yeah.
Em: That’s a frightening, that’s a frightening girl. That’s–
Christine: And here’s the two of them together.
Em: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Less terrifying.
Christine: Yeah, she looks less like totally– Yeah. Yeah.
Em: But still, that’s, um. Wow.
Christine: It’s pr– It’s a pretty dark tale.
Em: An image I can’t run from.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So, that’s the story, folks. Um, thanks for listening to another day of darkness, uh.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: We, we deeply appreciate you, and, you know, it’s a new year. We’re tryin’, trying to get through it. Um, we are going on tour starting next month which is very exciting. Uh, we have a whole new list of cities on our website, andthatswhywedrink.com/live. Uh, you can find us atwwdpodcast on all socials. Um, what else? What else? We wrote a book. Uh, we have a Patreon where you can listen to our Yappy Hour that we’re about to record off-air where we just talk about all sorts of fun things, sometimes do tarot polls, sometimes just do personality quizzes, sometimes talk about ghosts. Um, and you can find that at patreon.com/atwwdpodcast. And the rest of it, just go to our website andthatswhywedrink.com.
Em: And our most important thing to say today, which we forgot at the top of the episode–
Christine: Oh, I knew it! I forgot. I totally forgot.
Em: Happy Concepisode!
Christine: Concepisode! Hello, it’s our Concepisode!
Em: Our, our conception episode, uh, when we decided that we were– The idea struck today eight years ago that we would start a podcast together.
Christine: Eight years ago.
Em: Ugh! It– I can’t wait for our decade. We’re gonna have a party. We should have a party. We should talk to Maggie about doing something for our ten year.
Christine: We should have a gala.
Em: Now, that!
Christine: A gala [pronounced gae-la]? A gala [pronounced gah-la].
Em: Gay-la.
Christine: A gay-la! Hold on. Everybody, hold on. Write that down.
Em: We should hire like–
Christine: Eva! Write that down.
Em: –th– those cryptid drag queens. All that.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: We should, we should really throw a big bash for our ten year. That’d be so fun.
Christine: I’m on it.
Em: Okay.
Christine: I mean, I’m not on it. But, I’m, I’m on it like I’m on it with you. I’m on board with you.
Em: Well, happy Concepisode! Eight years of happiness, uh, with you, Christine.
Christine: Aww.
Em: And, uh, officially eight years of happiness in February, but.
Christine: I can’t believe it. We’re getting there. We’re getting so close, folks. And thank you, you guy– you guys.
Em: We, uh, we have a third-grader now!
Christine: We have a third-grader! And guess what? You guys made this all possible ’cause you’re the godparents, you know?
Em: [laughs] That’s true.
Christine: Of this chi– Of Chremit, our beautiful podcast child.
Em: Our little baby Chremit podcast. Thank you, everybody! And, um, thank you for eight years, and, uh, we’ll, we’ll see you– We’ll say it again in February. And–
Christine: Yeah, we’ll say it again many times. [laughs] That’s–
Em: Why–
Christine: We–
Em: Drink.