[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Um, I’m, I’m coming to you live today from my bed. I– It seemed like an extremely good idea before, before I did it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it does.
Christine: And, and now, it– And now it’s really– It– Actually, every step of the way, I realized more and more how bad of an idea it was.
Em: Oh. Are you getting seepy?
Christine: Um, no, well, yeah.
Em: Oh.
Christine: Actively yes, very much so. Um, but that was just a base level like I knew that would be part of it, but like– I mean, I’m barely breathing now because my webcam is so precarious, and every time I like breathe and move [laughs] up and down.
Em: [laughs] No, it’s like we’re all just sitting on your tummy, and we just get to be a part of–
Christine: [laughs] I can’t–
Em: It’s like we just get to sit there like a teddy bear.
Christine: See, like this is not going to work. I can’t just have this like fucking vibrating the whole time. People are gonna freak.
Em: Do you have one of those trays? Like when you’re sick and your mom would bring you soup trays?
Christine: Literally, I do.
Em: Then get it.
Christine: And that’s what– that’s what it’s on.
Em: Oh. That doesn’t make sense.
Christine: But the problem– Well, it’s ‘cause the webcam is like balanced on my laptop, so it like wobbles.
Em: Ohh.
Christine: So maybe I just need to switch it. That’s what I’ll–
Em: Tape.
Christine: After the intro, I’m gonna pause and then switch– But not pause, but I’m gonna switch cameras. So just FYI, if you’re watching this on YouTube and you’re about to throw up from motion sickness, I promise I will, I will change it, so it’s not wobbling.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: But anyway, sorry. Uh, what were we talking about?
Em: Nothing at all.
Christine: Oh, good. I’m also neurodivergent, in case you can't tell, everybody. Um, welcome to our podcast.
Em: We’re just different types. [laughs] Just different types.
Christine: We just– We’re two paths that diverged in a wood.
Em: Oh?
Christine: Neuro– neurotic, neurotically–
Em: Uh, neurodiverged, neurodiverged in a wood. [laughs] Um.
Christine: [laughs] Neurodiverged in a wood. Um, so.
Em: Uh, today is gonna be a chaotic episode, if you can’t tell. The energy is really all over the place. We’re–
Christine: I had to apologize to you before– we both apologized to each other before the recording even began. And we both went, “Oh boy.” Just things are, things are weird today.
Em: Yeah, um. We’re already 20 minutes behind because of m-my doing, and then, uh, Christine, yeah, apologized before I even got on, saying, “I’m so sorry,” just because of the energy. My hair should indicate that it’s, uh, gonna be a wild ride today.
Christine: You look like a Whoville– a Who from Whoville.
Em: Because I just seem to be– [singing] Ah-soo fwah-soo…
Christine: [laughs]
Em: I don’t know that, the– [laughs] the rest of it.
Christine: [singing] Da-hoo dor– Okay, I do know the words, but I did look them up on azlyrics.com, so that was cheating.
Em: [laughs] Um, yeah, no, I don’t know what’s going on. The energy is crazy. I am finally back in Los Angeles. Um, the fires are currently not near me, um, so that– all the more reason to record right now.
Christine: Did you do an intro for the last one about it? I, I didn’t hear it, so I wasn’t sure, and I– so, so that everybody texted like on our team being like, “Oh, maybe Em or Christine could do an intro about the fires,” because we recorded that episode before the fires had started. And, um, I was like, “Well, I’m certainly not in a position to be like making big statements about the fire. [laughs] I’m the only one who’s not on the West Coast.” So I just like ignored the message, and I was like, “I hope someone did it.” I don’t know.
Em: No, I did it. I mean, it– Yeah, no, it’s, uh, we’re– I’m very lucky. Obviously, I came back, so our house is pretty safe, knock on wood. But um, yeah, we’ve had some people– Actually, uh, Kirk– I already told you this–
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Kirk who made our logo, him and his wife lost their home.
Christine: [gasp] My god, it’s–
Em: Um, I saw a picture of it. It’s, I mean, it’s gone. It’s like really wild, um.
Christine: He does, uh, all our tour mer– He hel– started like our tour logo too, that main tour logo, Here for the Boos.
Em: The Here for the Boos, all of the, all the tour stuff. Um, yeah, so it’s um.
Christine: He’s such a good guy. That is just, fuck.
Em: He has a GoFundMe. Maybe we’ll post the GoFundMe, um.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, and I actually have– I know we’ve already posted some resources, but I found a couple good ones today that I was looking through, um, that were kind of like underrepresented ones too that I can also add after that.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But, yeah, that would be, that would be great, and if you send that to me too, that would be awesome.
Em: Yeah, um. Anyway, so a lot of people are going through it–
Christine: God.
Em: And I am, uh, very lucky to not be there currently. Um, we are supposed to have more winds today, which– who knows what that means, but, um, currently we’re okay.
Christine: Good.
Em: Um, are you still snowed in at your place?
Christine: It’s just–
Em: I was snowed in in Virginia.
Christine: Yeah, it was three degrees this morning. Um, yeah.
Em: [sharp exhale] Oh my god.
Christine: This is why I’m in bed. Well, that’s one of the reasons. But, yeah, so now, you know, if anyone needed more reasons for me to be horizontal in my flannel sheets today, it’s because– ‘In My Flannel Sheets’. It sounds like a lumberjack like erotica. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] It does. “Join me on my tummy in my flannel sheets.”
Christine: [laughs] We’ll wobble up and down as I br– as I laugh at Em’s jokes.
Em: Hey, girl. Wobbling up and down sounds part, part of the fanfic, for sure.
Christine: That’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying. Um, okay. Anyway, yeah, things are, things– We had the snow storms, but, you know, the fires, obviously, are, um, devastating. And, uh, it’s really freaky to just– I like put on the news alerts like as if I were a local basically, and I was like I need to turn these off ‘cause I’m not even there, but I’m like getting, you know, hyperfixated, and it’s just like at a certain point, you have to step back, but yikes.
Em: Yeah. So many of my friends in Richmond, um, they like lost water for several days, so it was like um–
Christine: Oh, in the snow storms? Yeah.
Em: Yeah. And so they were just like I– not being able to flush their toilets or shower or like– Yeah. Anyway, it was, uh, sounded not good.
Christine: Yeah. Did you hear about the Octavia Butler, uh–? So, Octavia Butler is a– So our mana– I had a call with our manager, Maggie, this morning, and she mentioned this on the call. And I like got into a deep dive on it between that call and this recording. Um, Octavia Butler is like w-widely known as, uh, like the first uh major – I guess is the right word – major Black female science fiction writer. And in the ‘90s, she wrote uh these– they were called like The Parables series. And she wrote The Sower’s Parable, and it was about the year– There’s literally a diary entry in it: February 1st, 2025, and it says, “We– There was a fire in Los Angeles today.” And it’s like, basically what happens is the city of Los Angeles like burns, and then–
Em: Come on.
Christine: A despot takes control of the country as president, and he wants to make America great again. And like granted, uh– So she died before he ever took office, obviously– Well, I did not– Not obviously.
Em: Well, she already knows how it goes. She didn’t have to be here, so. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, no, literally. And apparently, Ronald Reagan said that, originally. So that’s where she had gotten it, but it’s just really unsettling, because you’re reading like, oh, Los Angeles is burning to the ground. And she lived in like next to Altadena and like Pasadena area but spent a lot of time there, so it’s like– It– So there’s actually a bookstore there called Octavia’s Bookshelf, I think, or…?
Em: Yes.
Christine: Yeah, that one! That’s, that’s named after her.
Em: Ohh. Oh oh, okay.
Christine: Yeah, and so I guess right now they’re doing a lot of, um–
Em: Well, actually, you know what’s funny is we’ve– Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.
Christine: No, there’s a lag. I’m sorry. I think I was just– I think I was just behind the lag, I’m sorry.
Em: Mm. Shit, there’s a lag.
[tech difficulty song - singing: “Please stand by, we have to step away and–“ ]
Christine: Well, why do you drink this week besides AT&T or whatever, Verizon or whatever the fuck you have? [laughs]
Em: Oh my god. [laughs] I don’t know how much of that got in, but uh, yeah, we’re having some internet issues, so, you know, be, you know, prepare. Um.
Christine: Oh my god, this is already just insane. Em like fired our editor because we imagined a whole scenario in our heads where he blamed us for the tech problems.
Em: No– [laughs]
Christine: And then I got defensive, and then Em fired him, and then we said, “just kidding!” And– I– And now we’re like, “Anyway, Jack, figure out what goes in and what doesn’t.”
Em: Yeah, good luck.
Christine: So, um, we really give him all the power. Uh, anyway, go ahead, Em. I’m sorry.
Em: Uh, okay. I have a chaotic thing. I don’t know how you’ll react, but I– Stick with me until the very end–
Christine: Okay.
Em: –before you have a reaction.
Christine: Oh, is this your story already?
Em: No.
Christine: Oh, okay. I thought you were already starting your bit, and I was like, “Wait, wait, wait.” Okay.
Em: No. [laughs] I like that it’s a bit, thank you, not a–
[laughter]
Em: –not my fucking job.
Christine: It’s this recurring bit that you won’t stop– It’s like you insist on doing the same bit every week, and it’s getting old. [laughs]
Em: I know. Um, okay. So, uh, hang on. Hang on.
Christine: I knew I went to bed for a reason. Okay, go ahead. [gasps] Wait, is that real? No.
Em: Yes.
Christine: That’s a real tattoo?
Em: Yes. So, before you–
Christine: Shut the fuck up.
Em: It was an impulsive decision. And it has made me have–
Christine: I am so happy.
Em: Oh! Okay, I thought we were going to get defensive quickly.
Christine: No! I’m so happy. I’ve always wanted you to get a tattoo.
Em: So, it has given me opinions on a tattoo, I feel. I do still– I do want one with you about the–
Christine: Tell, tell us now what’s happening. What– Tell me. Or, I guess, I guess tell the story however you want. But– I can’t tell– Well, I can’t see– [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Okay, it’s my bit. [laughs]
Christine: Will you just finish the bit so we can move on? No, um, I can’t see your– It’s hard ‘cause it’s cropped, so I can’t even really see it.
Em: So, okay. Right, right, right. No, I’m just touching it at this point.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: Um, no, but it’s– So, it’s a piece of lettuce, which, um–
Christine: [gasps] Cute! What does it mean? It’s beautiful. It’s like bright green.
Em: Yeah, I really– I told them, I was like, “If I’m gonna do this, it has to be vibrant, so I give a shit about it.”
Christine: Did you know Blaise has a– His first tattoo was a bright green tattoo on his bicep also?
Em: That’s lovely. Oh my god, did he get a piece of lettuce?
Christine: He got the chupacabra.
Em: Oh.
Christine: No, he got a chupacabra, which honestly, if I had to guess who would get what, it would be switched.
Em: Yeah, right.
Christine: Right? Isn’t that weird? But, anyway.
Em: Oh, trust me. When I told my mom, she was like, “Of all the things, you got a piece of fucking lettuce?” Like that–
Christine: A vegetable, Em? [laughs]
Em: Yeah, so it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a matching tattoo with Tanner, with my cousin.
Christine: [gasps] Oh, that’s cute!
Em: Uh, it’s like, it’s like an inside joke with us. I don’t want to bore everybody, but– one– w– How do I say it? The succinct version is that when he and I were a lot younger, I went on his– I went with him to his spring break. And at his spring break, he got very drunk. We had a conversation about lettuce. It just became a thing.
Christine: [laughs] That’s so cute, okay.
Em: Um, so, he and I were recently hanging out, and he, he said something like, um, “Oh, yeah, that weekend was the first time I realized I didn’t just want to be your cousin, I wanted to be your friend.”
Christine: Stop! Get out of here.
Em: So, that was, uh– and he caught me in an impulsive moment, and I was like, “We’ve got a 30 minute window to do this.”
Christine: That’s dangerous. He knew it, too. He saw it in your eyes.
Em: He had to have. So now, we both have the– I, I, I gave him ten options for lettuce, and he picked this one, so we–
Christine: That’s a good one. That– I love that. You gave him ten options. Wow, Em! I’m so proud of you! You know, it’s crazy. There’s someone else in my life – I don’t want to call them out – they literally texted me yesterday and said like, “Don’t freak out, but I think I’m going to get a tattoo.” And I was like, “What?” I mean, I’m talking like totally surprised me. So this is like two people in a row, I don’t know. I told you the energy’s weird this week. Something’s off.
Em: The, the– Mercury is, I don’t know, getting a tattoo, and so am I.
Christine: [laughs] Mercury’s having an impulsive moment, and she needs to like rein it in.
Em: But it was– No, it was a very, um, sweet moment.
Christine: That’s beautiful. Did that hurt? That looks like it hurt with the color.
Em: I, um– Like a bitch. Well, I don’t know comparatively to something else, I just know that as– Everyone always told me, “Oh, it’s just gonna feel annoying.” It felt like– I’d never felt like the ba-ba-ba-ba-ba of the tattoo needle.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: I just felt like someone was taking an X-ACTO knife and carving into me. That’s what it fucking felt like.
Christine: I mean, it is really high up on your bicep, I feel like. I feel like that’s a very sensitive spot.
Em: It was, um–
Christine: I got my moth there, and like when she got to the upper part, I was like, “This is, uh, very uncomfy.”
Em: Yeah, I, while I– there were some moments where I was like, “Okay, I– This is fine.” And then there were other parts where I was like, “I’m not doing this anymore. Like I’ve– this is my first and last.” Um.
Christine: Yeah, that’s– Yeah, Blaise, Blaise’s really hurt too, and he got like a green one on his bicep, so I wonder if that’s part of it. I mean, not the green. But, I don’t know, maybe.
Em: Yeah. And there’s one part that’s like– There are parts that he like really, really colored into, and so there’s like a weird scab on them which I don’t like.
Christine: Yeah, but that’s what it– Yeah, the scabbing is freaky, ‘cause that happened to me for the first time with mine, the big one I have, because it’s like so shaded. And I think my other ones have all been just lines, and Blaise’s was also the colored, and he’s like, “They just went over it and over it and over it,” and it like scabbed, yeah. I think his really hurt too.
Em: Yeah. Um, anyway, I– There were moments where I was like, “I can say I’ve done it, and now I’m never doing it again.” But I, I, I can do it one more time eventually with you for an And That’s Why We Drink themed one, but I don’t know if any more will be before or after that. I think, I think I’ve got two in me and that’s it. So.
Christine: I’m so proud of you and not like in a condescending way. I just mean like– No, I don’t mean it in a condescending way like, “Oh, I’m so proud of you and all your blah-blah-blah.” I just mean like this is so exciting.
Em: Thank you. Well, I, I was worried you were gonna–
Christine: No! Oh my gosh. No.
Em: I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know what I was thinking. But, um, anyways, that’s why I drink, because I got a tattoo, and–
Christine: I just honestly never believed you would, like gen– like sincerely.
Em: Me either. But that’s why, I literally at my next therapy session after, I was like, “I did something out of character,” and so–
Christine: Honestly, that’s exciting. I don’t know.
Em: Yeah, I don’t know how I feel about it now, but it’s, I mean, it’s stuck on me now. So, nothing I can do about it now. But, uh–
Christine: I love it. It’s like, it’s like cute, and like vague enough and like fun. I don’t know.
Em: The meaning’s at least nice.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And also if I don’t like it, my T-shirt covers it up pretty perfectly.
Christine: Oh, see, yeah. Perfect.
Em: So, I ne- But also it makes more sense on Tanner ‘cause he, ‘cause he’s a private chef, so like lettuce makes fucking sense on him, it’s like an ingredient.
Christine: Oh, so people aren’t even gonna ask, they’ll be like, ‘That’s your crudité. Got it.”
Em: Yeah, exactly. Um, anyway, so that’s, that’s why I drink.
Christine: You know what I thought it was? I literally thought it was a celery vase first, at first.
Em: Oh! That’d be lovely.
Christine: I’m not even kidding.
Em: My mom thinks it’s a feather. She keeps calling it “her feather.” And I’m like, “ew.”
Christine: [laughs] Her feather? Her tail feather.
Em: [laughs] Doesn’t it sound like her flower?
Christine: [laughs] Ew, Em! That’s so much worse!
Em: [laughs] Doesn’t it? It’s disgusting.
Christine: Her feather! Oh no, oh no.
Em: [laughs] Anyway, I, uh, I–
Christine: This is like the time Eva got a tattoo, and then you kept saying like–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: You kept calling it dirty. [laughs] And then we just couldn’t stop thinking about it as being dirty. And Eva hadn’t had it for an hour, and we were all just like, “That’s your tattoo!” And making inside jokes about her tattoo, which is like so beautiful and poignant but like also just sounds so dirty when you can’t stop thinking about it.
Em: [laughs] It does– I feel like– Okay, it’s– I’m not the only one who could’ve possibly thought it sounds dirty.
Christine: No, no. And that’s why it like really caught on. [laughs]
Em: But, um, Eva has certainly earned the right to say whatever she wants about my stupid lettuce feather arm for the rest of time.
Christine: Oh my gosh, she’s going to be thrilled have you told her yet? Or no?
Em: I know– No.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: I also, I, I worried the two of you were start trying to get me into tattoo parlors while we’re on the road again. So, I’m, I’m telling you now as a blanket statement, I, I really–
Christine: You know that I play the long– You know I play the long game, right? Like this was a step in my plan all along.
Em: [laughs] I guess– So you were like, I’m–
Christine: I’m pulling the strings.
Em: You did the thing that like, “Oh, if I ignore it, then it’ll happen.”
Christine: That’s exactly it. ‘Cause that’s how it works with my toddler, so I figured it works with you too.
Em: There you go. Well, it worked. Well done.
Christine: Yeah. Fantastic. I’m so excited about this new development. It’s like a new you.
Em: I eventually do want to get the Boo Buddies, the ghosty guys with you. Um.
Christine: Oh, ghosty guys. Yeah, that’s from the logo that Kirk made!
Em: If, if you want that. Yeah.
Christine: Aw. [gasps] What if we get– Okay. Okay, I’m going off the rails.
Em: Here we go.
Christine: Never mind.
[laughs]
Christine: Relax, everybody. Take a deep breath. [deep inhale]
[laughter]
Em: Are you saying that to yourself?
Christine: I’m talking to myself. Yeah [laughs].
Em: All your personalities.
Christine: I’m t– I’m talking to all of you in there. That’s just to me.
Em: Uh, anyway, so, that’s why I drink. And why do you drink?
Christine: Wow. Who knew I’d have so many reasons? Um, I drink ‘cause it’s three degrees out. My whole body, honestly, hurts because of the weather, I think, because I’m old, like I don’t know.
Em: Oh.
Christine: I– ‘Cause it’s like– I was walking up the stairs, and I was like, “Why do my knees ache?” And then I was like, “Oh no, this used to happen to my mom.” Like when it was really cold, like her joints would hurt. And I was like, “Oh, fuck my life.” So everything kind of hurts today, and it’s three degrees out, and I have my– I literally got my pregnancy pillow out, so I could like lay in a certain way, um, and so I’m just kind of like in pain. And I was like there’s something happening to my head. Anyway, turns out it’s a headache. I–
Em: Oh. [laughs]
Christine: I never get– [laughs] I never get heada– I never get headaches unless it’s raining.
Em: And then my stomach ached. Now hold on, it was a stomachache.
Christine: [laughs] You’ll never guess.
[laughs]
Christine: I, I seriously– I was like, “There’s something wrong with me.” And Blaise is like, “It’s j– It’s a headache.” And I was like, “I don’t like it. It’s not fun.”
Em: I am such a baby when it comes to my head. I–
Christine: Oh gosh, I just can’t focus. I’m like, this– I feel so terrible ‘cause then I’m like people with migraines, man. You people are– I don’t know how you–
Em: I don’t know how you do it.
Christine: But it’s like how you say like, oh like when you get a stomachache, it’s like “Ah!” And I’m the same way about stomachaches, ‘cause I never get stomachaches unless I’m in an active flare-up, so if I get a stomachache, I’m like, “I’m dying!” And it’s just so, so annoying.
Em: Yeah. No, I– if, if it’s a head or it’s a stomach thing, I– ‘Cause I, when I get sick, my throat is like, like patient zero. Like I just, I feel like I am so used to my throat hurting.
Christine: Yeah. That’s my worst. Yeah.
Em: And I– At this point, I can rock a sore throat all the time.
Christine: Really? I can’t stand it. It’s like my worst nightmare.
Em: But that’s like you can, you can handle a stomach thing, and I couldn’t po- possibly do it.
Christine: Oh, I guess that’s true. Fair point, yeah.
Em: But um– Yeah, that and head stuff, I, I– There’s just no getting around it. I’m a, I’m a miserable person to be around if either of those hurt.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, so I’m just being a baby today, and then Blaise was like, “I’m gonna take a nap.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” And so now he’s sleeping in his office. [laughs]
Em: That poor guy. He’s like, “Anything to shut, shut out reality.”
[laughs]
Christine: He’s fine. There’s, there’s a futon in there. And then what happened was, I took the– This all seemed like a good idea until it was such a bad idea that I had already committed to it, and it would be worse if I got up and tried to reverse it, you know. I was like, I went past the point of no return. And so then I was like holding the like metal stand of the microphone like in my lap while laying down, and it, it just wasn’t working.
Em: Mm, been there. Been there.
Christine: Yeah, right? Like you know, that balancing act, and then it kept clanging.So then I was just like, oh, I’ll just hold the microphone. But then I took all the screws out, and they all just scattered to the wind in my bed. And I was like trying to find little like washers that just are now loose. Um, and so, they’re just around. Um.
Em: That’s great. That sounds exactly like what I know you to do and have.
Christine: It feels like we’re back at pat– Talk about patient zero, feels like we’re back at episode 1 of And That’s Why We Drink, but like just the same old bullshit, you know.
Em: You know what’s pretty actually disgusting about you is the fact that you can lie there in bed at this angle and not have a double chin. It’s sickening. Sickening.
Christine: No, I’m so insecure. I’ve been staring at myself because you can see all my neck wrinkles.
Em: I’m sitting upright, and I have a double chin. And you’re lying here?
Christine: Look at all my neck wrinkles, see?
Em: This is how I would look.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And you look like that? Are you fucking kidding me?
Christine: Okay, but there’s gonna be–
Em: So. Mean.
Christine: No, ‘cause someone’s gonna screenshot like the worst moment of this episode when I have–
Em: You’re such a– Yeah, it’ll be this.
Christine: [laughs] It’ll be you. “Look how bad Christine looks on her camera– Oh wait, no, that’s Em.”
Em: Yeah, I know. It’s, it’s really, it’s really mean that you can just do that.
Christine: I’m kidding. Oh, you’re so silly. I put on makeup because I knew I would be horizontal, and I was like this is not really a flattering–
Em: Did you contour your neck?
Christine: Yes, I sure did. I did contour my jaw. And also, um, I have Dolf here.
Em: Oh, yeah.
Christine: This is Moonshine’s mommy.
Em: Aw.
Christine: Um, he thinks, he thinks it’s his mommy. But it is always like that perfect neck pillow– you know when you need just like the perfect thing behind your head.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And so it’s really unfortunate because then he stands up here and just starts suckling on Dolf who’s then behind my head. [laughs]
Em: Looks like she– Like he’s, he’s just sucking on your hair. Yuck.
Christine: Yeah, it’s really unpleasant. Well, he does because then it gets in the way. So then, I have to like throw Dolf across the room, and… Anyway.
Em: Eurgh.
Christine: So, if Moonshine appears, I will have to get rid of Dolf, and then my neck will really be telling a story. So don’t worry about it. I won’t be looking great in a few moments.
Em: Eurgh. I should also mention if you hear barking, we’re dog sitting, and, and–
Christine: Oh my gosh, yes. Or, it’s Gio.
Em: Or Gio, yeah. This time, you’ll never know, I guess.
Christine: We’ll never know.
Em: Uh, but this dog, uh, her favorite thing to do in the world is to just look me dead in the eyes and then go [sighs] and all that like hot fishy breath just hits me in the face.
Christine: Eww! And by the way, she’s a Great Dane, and she’s beautiful, everybody.
Em: She’s a big girl, yeah.
Christine: I just– She’s just like the most precious little thing. I mean, giant thing.
Em: Her eyes are, her eyes are rolled in the back of her head right now, so I think, I think we’re safe from barking currently.
Christine: It’s like, leave me it out of it.
[laughter]
Em: Um, that’s what she’s going to look like when you tell a joke, for sure.
Christine: [laughs] I thought that’s what you were saying, and then I realized you were saying she’s asleep. But I was like, “Okay. Jesus. Sorry, dog. I wasn’t like– Sorry that Em is like judging your, your humor, your humor level.”
Em: [laughs] Well, just in case, in case you make a joke, I’m gonna refer to this dog instead so I get away with it. Okay.
Christine: Aw, man.
Em: Um, what, what are you drinking?
Christine: Um. Well, I fear to drink anything at, at this position because I do have a lot of–
Em: Spit?
Christine: Not even spit, really. Just a lot of electronics in my lap, and I’m not vertical. So it’s like, hmm. Um, but I just have my water here.
Em: So, yeah, what are you holding next to you?
Christine: Here. Oh my god. And there’s my Bigfoot sticker from Lisa, so. It’s just an old ass Stanley cup.
Em: Uh. I– It’s currently in the wash. I planned on drinking it– drinking out of it, but it had to get washed first. Um, but, I got a surprise in the mail today. Did you know about this?
Christine: Yay! Yeah, it was my idea.
Em: ‘Course it was your idea.
Christine: Well, Eva like did it all the w– hard work parts of it and was also creative team director and said, “That’s a good idea.” So, she gets a lot of– most of, 99% of the credit. But yes, I did say Stanley cups.
Em: We’ll post a picture somewhere, and maybe just like in the corner of the screen or something too, but. Uh, yeah, I, I came home from Virginia to a Stanley. I’ve never had a Stanley before. And, uh, I–
Christine: You’re one of those girls now.
Em: I am one–
Christine: Eva had never had one either, so Eva was like, “Can we send them to ourselves?” And I was like, “Yeah.”
[laughs]
Christine: So, we all had them sent to ourselves.
Em: So not only– They– Uh, it’s a, a black Stanley, and it has like the, the iridescent oil spill kind of color as a–
Christine: It’s called “chroma.”
Em: Of course. And, um, a little birdie–
Christine: I picked that too. And I said that’s, I said that’s for Em. [laughs]
Em: –named Christine had it engraved in Chroma to say “Drink up, Em” with the image of a rat. Um, and it is beautiful.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, and by the way, I submitted this SVG file of this rat, like a, you know, stock-free ph– whatever, copyright free photo. And I was like, “Here, Eva. Try this one.” And then like it came, and it was like so gigantic. And I was like, “I didn’t think the rat would take up half the cup.” [laughs]
Em: The, the rat is half the cup, for sure. Um, but I love it.
Christine: But like the Stanley website was down when we were trying to order them. So she and I just were like on the phone like, refreshing, and you were in Virginia, so I was like– I was like, “Eva, let’s figure this out, and we’ll just surprise everyone.” And then we were so frustrated. Eva found a creator on Etsy who ma-makes them by hand, which was even cooler. So, yeah, they picked– Uh, we, we picked like half and half chrome– the chroma ones and then like red ones? I forget, I forget what– I don’t know.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But it was for– Well, so what it was was a staff gift for our, for our staff. And then, Eva and I were like, “We want them too.” It’s just like so lame. I’m so lame.
Em: Uh, what did– What did the, the ones for the staff say? It’s, it’s not also “Drink up, Em” with a rat, is it?
Christine: So they– It’s not “Em.” It says “Drink up, Katie,” “Megan,” “Jack,” um, “Saoirse,” and then, uh, and then “Christine” and “Eva.” [laughs] And “Em.”
Em: It’s beautiful. I–
Christine: Eva had not had a Stanley before, and then she literally screenshot that she bought one– like an Olivia Rodrigo one right afterward. And I was like, you are the worst person to introduce to a fandom besides me and Em, because just the money goes straight out the window.
Em: A hundred percent.
Christine: It’s so hard to resist.
Em: Well, so, a-are you also responsible for the accessories?
Christine: Uh, no. That was an all-Eva situation.
Em: That was a delicious call because–
Christine: I mean, that was fun.
Em: So it’s sitting here, so I can put my Stanley in it.
Christine: And it changed my life, by the way.
Em: You got– So, it’s got like this little thing, and it’s got–
Christine: It has like a backpack now.
Em: It’s got a whole– It holds your phone, your credit cards, your cell ph– or your, your, your sunglasses, your keys.
Christine: Your vape, your disposable vape.
Em: It holds everything. And it holds, uh, the, [inaudible] the Stanley, so. Anyway, I–
Christine: And I put, uh– Okay, so have you seen– So, I was actually just watching a YouTuber who does like critiques of TikTok trends and stuff. And she did one on, um, on Stanley like fandoms, and it’s like the rage-bait videos where people are like, um–
Em: Oh, yes.
Christine: “Get my Stanley back to school ready” And it’s like, what the fuck? And then, it’s like, “Here’s its three crayons. It needs some loose leaf paper.”
Em: Yes. [laughs]
Christine: And you’re like, “What the fuck are you doing?” And it’s like, it’s so like rage-inducing that it’s like I think these people have- are just sat– like are, are duping us. But there are like some wild folks with, with these Stanley things. I mean, I have two of them now, and I’m like– Blaise is already like, “One more and the first goes out the window,” you know. So, I think–
Em: I almost got the Elphaba for Wicked, and then I didn’t.
Christine: Now, that– I almost bought that for you, but it– And then I was like, oh, everybody bought it. ‘Cause there was like a brawl at Target over it. And people were like punching each other. It’s like what the–?
Em: I, I probably threw the first punch, um.
Christine: I thought I saw your lettuce tattoo bicep kinda come through the screen.
Em: It– just came swinging in, just one leaf floating by, yeah. Um.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] One leaf. One feather. I saw Linda’s feather on TV.
Em: [laughs] Anyway, this is why–
Christine: I was watching Cinemax, and I saw Linda’s feather.
[laughs]
Em: You’re sick! You’re almost as dirty as Eva’s tattoo.
Christine: Oh! That’s saying something.
Em: I, uh. No, anyway, so this is where I, I give you my official thank you, because I did not expect to open that when I got home, and it was delicious.
Christine: I’m so glad it got to you finally. I was so worried that like it would just end up like, I don’t know, in some storage. I don’t know. I didn’t know if it would like get to you, so I’m glad.
Em: No, we, we luckily have neighbors who have been taking in all of our mail. We owe them quite a lot of pastries.
Christine: Oh, nice. And I’ve probably mailed you so much shit. Uh, if I had known that, I probably would not have mailed you so much shit. But, um, oops.
Em: It’s fine. Uh, no, so anyway, I planned on drinking out of that. But since I don’t have that, I’ll be drinking my LD.
Christine: Nice.
Em: And, uh, I’m ready to tell you my story. It is, uh, one I worked quite hard on. Uh, I think this one I actually worked twice as hard on as I usually work on stories.
Christine: Oh! Oh, wow. Okay. Wow.
Em: My usual time– It usually takes like eight hours to like get all of the notes.
Christine: That’s kind of– Which is so weird ‘cause I know we do notes so completely– I mean, you and I do them completely differently. But I’ve always averaged at about eight, yeah.
Em: Yeah. And this one was, this one was double that, probably.
Christine: Whoa.
Em: So I think just because there was so much, um.
Christine: That’s why I like to do Jeffrey Dahmer Part One and Two. And then it’s like, a-ha, I tricked everybody into letting me do all that work for two episodes.
Em: Yeah, a-ha-ha!
Christine: Hee-hee!
Em: Um, well, if it were like a ghost story– Unfortunately, for those who like the ghost stories, this is not one of those. If it were able to be a part one–
Christine: Imagine how pissed off everyone is when they’ve listened through all of this bullshit–
Em: I know.
Christine: And then they’re like, “Wait, what?”
Em: They just take their finger and drag to you, I mean. Not, not the first rodeo, I’m sure.
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Em: This is a conspiracy theory, which many people have been saying they want more conspiracy theories, so–
Christine: Well, now I’m really listening.
Em: For those people– For the other people who are mad that it’s not a ghost story, I hope the people who wanted a conspiracy theory are happy. It’s always gonna be 50% of you are happy.
Christine: Maybe I’ll tell a ghost story. Nobody knows.
Em: Oh, shit. You know, I actually, uh, found a story that is half true crime and half ghost story, and I don’t know which one of us should handle it.
Christine: Oh, I love those, though. Those are some of the best. Maybe we should do like a, a special episode where we both cover it. We’ve never done that before.
Em: Where we do half the work each. [laughs]
Christine: Oh, actually. Hang on. And then let’s do part one and part two.
Em: Yes, exactly. You’re onto something.
Christine: We’ll quarter the work, [laughs] yeah.
Em: Okay, so this is, uh, uh, the Denver Airport conspiracy theories.
Christine: [gasps] Now, I can not wait for– Oh, Em. I don’t think I ever even knew if you would do this or not ,’ cause I was like, I don’t know if that’s in Em’s wheelhouse or if they would want to.
Em: Why surely I would.
Christine: I’m so– I’m so thrilled. I’m so thrilled.
Em: So, up until learning about all this, my favorite fun fact about, uh, the Denver Airport because I pass through the Denver Airport so often.
Christine: Yeah, I bet.
Em: Um, a– Eva and I both do because it’s– We usually fly out of our neighborhood airport instead of LAX, because if you’re a local, nobody likes LAX.
Christine: And it’s just such a pain in the ass. Yeah.
Em: It’s a nightmare. Um, and so we usually fly out of Burbank, and there– If you’re flying out of Burbank, there’s always a layover. You– Like it’s very rare to get lucky to get a straight shot.
Christine: It’s ’cause it’s a smaller airport, yeah.
Em: And, one of the like top three–
Christine: They fly to like Austin, ‘cause it’s like Austin Film Fest and shit like that. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. One of the, uh, top three, uh, layover spots are Denver. And it’s always Concourse B, so Concourse B in Denver Airport and I know each other very well.
Christine: Concourse B. You’re like triggering me so aggressively right now saying “Concourse B.” Please keep it down. I can’t stand this. My tension headache. Oh my god.
Em: If, if there was an airport like, and, and specifically a concourse, um, I don’t even have to wonder about food when I, when I land in Denver. I know exactly every single gate, blah blah blah blah blah.
Christine: That’s funny, yeah.
Em: And so, my fun fact up until th– this set of notes was that my favorite spot to travel to mid– like during a layover is Denver Airport B54.
Christine: Ooh.
Em: Because that is where the, the Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory is, and that’s where I get my candy apples.
Christine: Okay. I thought you were going to say ’cause like there’s some underground tunnel there, that entrance there.
Em: No, it’s just ‘cause I want a caramel apple.
Christine: And you’re like, “There’s fudge.” [laughs]
Em: Every time– ‘Cause we always end up in like the B30’s, and if I have a long enough layover, I can walk the 20, uh, and then I–
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how that feels. You have to like– And then you’re like, moving walkway, oh my god. Lord, help me. You’re really seriously setting me in a bad direction here. Spiral. I knew I needed to be in bed.
Em: So if you, if you happen to be in the Denver Airport while you’re listening to this, and you happen to be in Concourse B, if you were to wander over to Gate B54, you might see a caramel apple that has my name on it.
Christine: Oh my– And our P.O. Box is– [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Anyway, that’s, uh, that’s my favorite. Okay.
Christine: They’re gonna be like– We’re gonna all– Let’s all do a thing where we like take a selfie there, and then we create, we create like a whole new conspiracy about that particular storefront in the Denver Airport.
Em: [laughs] I mean, this airport is like meant– is known to be weird as shit, so like why not just make it a thing that like–
Christine: Yeah, I love it.
Em: Maybe, maybe I can start getting discounts on my apples. I, I–
Christine: Okay, yeah, now we’re talking. [laughs]
Em: Let’s put it this way. As someone who travels through the Denver Airport a lot more than most people, I probably proportionally buy a lot more of their apples than anyone else. So, let’s just put–
Christine: Yeah, so they better fucking watch out who they’re messing with.
Em: So, I’m owed is what I’m saying, obviously.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re in top tier.
Em: So, um, as one of their top customers, here is the story of the Denver Airport. So, fun fact: apparently, Denver Airport is called DIA to people because it’s Denver International Airport.
Christine: Okay.
Em: So, I will be saying DIA, even though the code for the Denver Airport is DEN.
Christine: Yeah, okay. ‘Cause I was like– I– That is not– Okay, alright.
Em: Yeah. Anyway, uh–
Christine: Whatever.
Em: Fun fact, DIA. Now, it’s going to throw me every time I’m flying through Denver. So, the DIA spans over 33,000 acres.
Christine: Whoa.
Em: It is one of the largest airports in the world. It apparently– This one source told me, it– There is, uh, 1.5 million square feet of, of property.
Christine: Holy shit.
Em: Um, because we always flying through only Concourse B, I don’t think it occurred to me that this has those kind of stats. I didn’t know it was that big of an airport.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, me neither.
Em: The land alone makes it the second largest airport in the world.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: Um, after the King Fahd International Airport in Saudi Arabia.
Christine: Oh my lord. The land alone, wow.
Em: And the land alone makes the Denver Airport bigger than actual cities like San Francisco
Christine: What?
Em: Isn’t that fucking crazy?
Christine: The, the Denver– The property that the Denver airport sits on is bigger than the city of San Fran– That’s like mind-boggling. My head hurts again. I don’t know what’s happening to me.
Em: That’s– I– okay, that’s, that’s a headache, just so you know.
Christine: Oh, shit. Okay. I was about to call Blaise from his nap and make him assess, assess me.
Em: [laughs] So, the DIA is also the third lar– third busiest airport in the world with almost 70 million travelers passing through it per year.
Christine: And how many– I mean, I would say at least 10,000 of those are you. Like, statistically.
Em: And the others are apples.
[laughs]
Christine: Yep, that’s what they say.
Em: Uh, and so, it was originally built for up to 50 million travelers per year. It is now hitting 70. And they’re projecting by like 2030, it’ll be 100 million travelers a year. So, they are constantly trying to expand.
Christine: If, if we’re– If anyone’s even around, yeah.
Em: [laughs] Yeah.
Christine: I’m just like at this point, I’m not holding my breath.
Em: So they’re constantly trying to expand, despite it already being so big.
Christine: Oh, what the fuck.
Em: It is the largest airport in the country by area. It’s 53 square miles and has the country’s longest commercial-use runway, which is apparently 16,000 feet long or three miles long.
Christine: Wha– Three mi– Okay, that puts it in perspective, okay. Yeah. Three miles. Holy shit.
Em: And fun fact: that runway is 16R/34L, in case you care.
Christine: Oh my god, let’s all go take a photo in front of 16R–
Em: Let’s hold our apples on 16R/34L.
Christine: [laughs] We’re going to create a whole scavenger– Well, there probably are already scavenger hunts for the Denver Airport. Let’s be real.
Em: The, the last fun fact I have before I start with this is that Macaulay Culkin once tweeted, “The Denver Airport is the scariest place I’ve ever been in in my life.” [laughs]
Christine: Oh my god. And that’s saying something, okay, guys? [laughs]
Em: And that’s saying something. That guy– He’s had to–
Christine: He’s been around town.
Em: He had to deal with three home invasions. Are you kidding me? As, as a child?
Christine: I mean, seriously. As a child, as a minor.
Em: And he fended them off on his own. One time in New York City by himself.
Christine: And Donald Trump was there. And a lady with so many pigeons.
Em: And a pigeon lady. Oh my– He’s been around the block, you’re right.
Christine: He’s a survivor, you know.
Em: And the DIA said, I’m no match for you. So.
Christine: Holy crap.
Em: So, let’s just get right into some of the theories. The, the main conspiracy theory here is that– It starts with the construction of the DI– the DIA.
Christine: Okay.
Em: The airport was slated to open in 1993, but it didn’t open until 18 months later in 1995. And that was already kind of weird. People were like, “What’s the delay? What’s going on?” It got even weirder when people found out, “Oh, there was also a slight over-budget. We maybe spent two or three billion extra dollars.”
Christine: What?
Em: “And, we also don’t totally want to disclose who was funding this.”
Christine: Wait, billion with a “b”?
Em: With a “b”.
Christine: Holy smokes. Okay. And we don’t– Okay. Okay.
Em: Yes. So, um–
Christine: I’m already in 110%. We all know. I’m already in. I’m, I’m locked and loaded. Let’s go.
Em: [laughs] So, it was two years delayed. There was at least a two billion dollar overspending, although some sources say up to 4.8 billion dollars. Um–
Christine: Jesus. That’s like– The fact that we don’t even know is weird, you know.
Em: The people who, uh, were funding it were apparently a little hush-hush at some point. Um, also, of the construction, there was apparently a “whistleblower” who said, “Oh, I’ve been down there, and this is what I saw.” And apparently there are several stories of building underneath the ground full of tunnels and, allegedly,bunkers.
Christine: That’s like so deeply unsettling.
Em: Yeah, it’s, uh, super scary. And, on top of that, during the two years that it took to keep construction going despite it being– It should have already been done by now, they kept firing construction crews and re-hiring them, and the–
Christine: See? That’s always a sign.
Em: And the thought is to make sure that nobody knows the true full blueprint of what’s down there.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Imagine it’s like the W– It feels like the Whaley House, like just keep building shit, you know.
Em: Yes.
Christine: Keep adding staircases and stuff.
Em: And don’t ask questions, and don’t go over here.
Christine: And don’t ask any questions.
Em: Um, so many people believed these tunnels were for nefarious reasons, obviously, including Christine.
Christine: Mm-hmm. I wonder why. When is a tunnel not for nefarious– Well, I guess there are plenty, so I’m gonna stop talking. I’m like, hm.
Em: Just like to walk under a bridge.
Christine: There’s– just like to walk under a bridge and also like a tunnel to let a train in, you know, stuff like that.
Em: Um, I– Speaking of tunnels and bridges, I will say, if I were to get another tattoo, I would get the Fredericksburg skyline which is known for its bridge.
Christine: Aw, that’s cute.
Em: Isn’t that fun?
Christine: Yeah, I like that.
Em: Um–
Christine: And, and that won’t– That won’t hurt as much, that line tattoo.
Em: Yeah, but I was thinking about it being colored in, like solid.
Christine: Oh, well, that’ll hurt. Yeah.
Em: That’ll suck. Um, anyway, that’s why– That’s why I probably won’t do it. Um, so, many believe that these tunnels are for nefarious reasons. People believe that these could be bunkers for the elite. They could be hideouts for the government or a New World Order.
Christine: Mm. I mean, for someone to have billions of dollars to fund it, yeah.
Em: Yeah, and it– Well, I don’t want to get ahead of myself. Yes, you’re on to something. Bunkers for the elite, hideouts for the government, maybe this is where extraterrestrials are. I mean, if we’re already– If this is an aircraft, an airspace–
Christine: We know they are rich as shit. [laughs] These fucking aliens.
Em: Uh-huh. Or they could at least be in cahoots with military bases. Maybe this is where military bases are storing the bodies we keep hearing about with the aliens.
Christine: You’s so scaring me. You’re scaring– Under the fucking caramel apples. That– This is outrageous. I love this fucking story so much.
Em: [laughs] And, um, keep in mind that like when I say like there are several stories below the airport, I mean like at the very least we know of six layers of underground.
Christine: That, for sure–
Em: Of stories, like not just like a, like a little walk-down.
Christine: Oh my god– Like full floors of–
Em: Full floors.
Christine: Oh my lord.
Em: Which also, since if nothing is going on down there, think of the theories alone just in backrooms.
Christine: Yes, I know, and it’s like a labyrinth basically that’s untouched. Ew.
Em: There have been people on TikTok who have like found–
Christine: I’ve seen that.
Em: –like who have gone through a door and everything, and then they end up in the backrooms of the Denver Airport.
Christine: And the guy was– Did you see that guy? He’s like, “I haven’t seen a person in like a quarter of a mile. I’ve just been wandering, and there’s not a single person or sign for my gate.” Like, I’m just– Oh, so scary.
Em: There was one I found where he was walking, and the ceiling was getting lower.
Christine: Ew, ah, agh!
Em: Ew. I don’t know why that freaked me out so much, but it sure did.
Christine: I just have full chills now after that.
Em: Allegedly, nobody knew, again, who was funding this wild overspending. Some think it must be the Illuminati or it’s got to be some secret government, something, insert whatever secret thing here, that has enough money and power to be able to keep funding whatever is going on.
Christine: Right. Some like Elon Musk bullshit. Yeah.
Em: Mm-hmm. And it made no sense to people why an airport was being built on top of an already functioning airport, because what I didn’t tell you yet is that before the Denver Airport, there was the– There was the Stapleton International Airport.
Christine: I almost asked. ‘Cause I– You said ’93. I was like, there is no way there was not an airport in Denver before that. Okay, so they built on top of it.
Em: Mm-hmm. They built on top of an airport that already existed.
Christine: What?
Em: And to the general public was a seemingly perfectly functional airport.
Christine: But they also built underneath it, I think, apparently. On top of it–
Em: Yeah, [laughs] they actually just sandwiched it.
Christine: [laughs] Just like smushed it.
Em: Um, so yeah. There was the, uh, Stapleton International Airport, and the, the story goes is that people were baffled that they were even building a new airport, because why did they need that?
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So, then people were like, “Well, was there shady stuff going on at the Stapleton one that they need to demolish?”
Christine: Ohh.
Em: “Are they building– And are they building new? Or are they calling this new thing an airport in– as an excuse for why there’s all this concrete construction everywhere?”
Christine: Oh, I hadn’t even thought of that.
Em: Where it’s like maybe it’s not going to be an airport. Or maybe it’s just disguised as an airport, and it’s just a coverup.
Christine: Just like a facade, right.
Em: Like maybe we are building six stories below, and we’re just going to put an airport on top, so nobody questions anything, you know?
Christine: Yeah, oh my lord. And just make it accessible for 70 million people.
Em: Yeah, exactly. So, um, realistically, it– As far as we know at least, conspiracy theorists will say, “Well, who’s to say?” But, allegedly, I guess I should say, it– The over budget was funded by the FAA, which is government money.
Christine: Right.
Em: And the city of Denver. And, uh, if you ask the right people, they’ll say, “Oh, well, the Stapleton International Airport, yes, to most people it looked like a totally functioning airport, but it had like a desperate need for several improvements. We were constantly closing on the runway. We were having a lot of maintenance issues. Um.”
Christine: There’s no Russell Stover or whatever restaurant that was you mentioned.
Em: [laughs] The, the m– the chocolate factory?
Christine: Chocolate factory, yeah.
Em: There’s no apples, like people are freaking out.
Christine: Oh, it’s really bad, actually.
Em: There’s a one-year-old somewhere in ’93 who needs an apple.
Christine: And we need two, and we need two billion dollars to make sure this gets funded. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] But so they, they were like, “This just– People who weren’t in the industry or worked here had no idea that we needed massive improvements, and it almost made sense to just start over.”
Christine: Right. Okay.
Em: Um, because it was certainly not an airport meant to hold 50 million people, let alone coming up on double.
Christine: No, probably not.
Em: So, it’s also odd, like I said, because there are several floors built underneath the airport that have seemingly no reason. In fact, when you look at the, um, square footage of just the underground tunnels, it is almost half a million square feet.
Christine: [gasps] Jesus.
Em: 4– 470,000 square feet are down there.
Christine: Jesus Christ, that’s a lot.
Em: A lot, yeah. And some contractors claim that they saw the bunkers and the tunnels, but, um, you know, it definitely helps people think that there must be an underground tunnels system that they want us to know something about.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Many think that these tunnels actually lead to NORAD, which is the– uh, North American Aerospace Defense Command. Um, that’s not the right letters. Hm.
Christine: I know NORAD. I’ve heard of that. But I don’t know what it stands for. NORAD.
Em: I think– NORAD.
Christine: Astonishing Legends talks about that.
Em: Oh, no, it is. Apparently, it is. The North American–
Christine: Oh, because it’s “NOR”-“A”-“D”.
Em: “A”-“D”, I see.I was like, hang on a second, those letters don’t make sense.
Christine: Yeah, that didn’t make sense for a moment either to me.
Em: It’s weird that we let the military come up with, um, initials that like don’t actually do what they’re supposed to do.
Christine: Yeah, it’s like I guess you’re allowed to do that if you’re the military.
Em: [laughs] So, anyway, they, they think a lot of the tunnels lead to NORAD, which is the North American Aerospace Defense Command. Uh, they think a lot of these tunnels take you either directly to military bases or they take you even a hundred miles to bunkers.
Christine: Whoa.
Em: Apparently, NORAD has a, um, has a branch 75 miles away.
Christine: Oh my god.
Em: So they think, “Oh, well, these tunnels take you there in case of like a nuclear event, like this will keep you safe until you can get to the actual base.”
Christine: Wow. So they think there’s a tunnel that goes all the way– 75 miles long. Jeez.
Em: Yes, 75 miles long. Which– What are you gonna do? On one of those little luggage carts? That’s how you’re going to get there? You talking about–
Christine: [laughs] One of those smart carts, like 25 cents in there.
Em: [laughs] Um, so, others think that not only is it, uh, you can drive 100 miles to a bunker, but that these tunnels could be the beginning of building out an entire town underground for the rich and powerful when the doomsday is come.
Christine: Ugh. So like this weekend, probably, because of all the shit going on.
Em: Probably, someone’s hiding out down there.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, the airport says that these facilities are not a fallout shelter. This is just where all the luggage goes downstairs.
Christine: Okay. The luggage, sure, whatever that even means. Like the luggage that the airlines lose? What do you mean? [unintelligible]
Em: [laughs] Well, I guess, if you think about it, if there’s 70 million people a year going through this airport, you don’t often see– Like it’s kinda like the backrooms where the luggage goes.
Christine: Wait, that’s a great fucking point, Em. That’s a lot of suitcases.
Em: And also, um, that’s, I mean, 70 million bags a year, and you don’t see them like just carted around in front of you. Like it’s when you drop them off at bag drop, it– Kind of the inner workings–
Christine: I guess when they end up on that truck thing.
Em: Mm-hmm. Um, also apparently, it has now become– It’s kind of like at Disneyland like the tunnels where it’s like employees get from A to B without bothering other people.
Christine: Mm. I see.
Em: Apparently, up to a thousand workers a day are down there, um, just getting from terminal to terminal.
Christine: Like access points, okay.
Em: It’s also where a lot of the plumbing and electrical is. ‘Cause if you think about an airport that’s, I mean, as big as San Francisco, think of all the electricity and plumbing you need for that.
Christine: I mean, but my, my, my airport also has plumbing and electricity. I don’t know that they needed– I mean, okay, yes. I know. I’m on conspiracy brain, sorry.
Em: No, you’re good.
Christine: But, yes. Six floors of plumbing and electricity and like? No.
Em: But does it seem– iI seems intriguing to me like if you told me San Francisco, which is somehow smaller than this airport–
Christine: Yeah.
Em: If you told me San Francisco is run by only six floors of plumbing and electricity, I’d go, “That’s it?” You know what I mean?
Christine: Yeah, you know–
Em: So, very quickly it’s like, well, that’s not a lot of space.
Christine: Well, shit. Well, yeah, yeah.
Em: And that’s where all of the luggage goes. And, on top of it–
Christine: Okay, but then why, if they have so much space, are they not going outward? Like, why is it down? Or is it all like– Is the whole airport take up that gigantic property? Or is it just like they decided to build down instead of out?
Em: So, yeah, I don’t know that answer. I do know that, um, at one point, they were trying a new like state-of-the-art, hadn’t been seen before automated luggage system that was supposed to be operating underground where nobody had to see it. Um, and then it was a total bust.
Christine: Mm. Oh.
Em: Apparently – this is a quote – “launching bags off of the conveyor belts and shredding luggage.”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Someone else apparently called it “the baggage system from hell.”
Christine: Oh my god. Okay.
Em: And, apparently, that person was maybe Macaulay Culkin who said that this was the scariest place he’d ever been.
Christine: Well, yeah, ‘cause his like Louis Vuitton bag got shredded and thrown in his face.
Em: [laughs] So, uh, when that system wasn’t working, they just kinda abandoned ship. But I think one whole floor was supposed to be dedicated to this baggage stuff.
Christine: Okay, I mean, that makes sense.
Em: And then another floor was plumbing. Another thing was electricity. So, but that still– You’re right, doesn’t account for like three whole floors of this.
Christine: I mean, it, it does feel like very late ‘80s like, “Let’s modernize things.” Like, “Instead of building out, so that we need all these trams, like what if we did up and down?” Like it almost feels like an architect was like, “I’ve got a bold idea for the Denver Airport.” And they like tested it out, and it was like, “Never mind.”
Em: It, like, ate your backpack, yeah.
Christine: Yeah, it ate your backpack, and now you have two billion dollars in debt, and they– Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. But it– I could see that being a possibility. For the, for the ‘90s. Yeah.
Em: Mm-hmm. So, that’s a thought. That’s a thought. Um, and when asked about the tunnels leading to military bases– This is an interesting thought, but the world’s longest – that we know of – the world’s longest underground rail tunnel– It’s in the Swiss Alps. And it took over a decade to build, and it’s still less than half the size people claim that these tunnels go.
Christine: Really?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: It took how long?
Em: It took over a decade to build basically like 30-something miles.
Christine: Oh my god.
Em: And people think that, well, this is an easy 75 miles.
Christine: 75. Okay, yeah, I guess I fell for that trap too where I was like, “Oh, yeah. Just build a tunnel.”
Em: But also, we don’t know. Like they weren’t US government funded, you know. So–
Christine: The FAA wasn’t involved, yeah. I don’t think.
Em: Plus, this is another, this is another thought is that if the airport and its backers spent decades and billions hiding an agenda, why would they jeopardize it by posting clues of it around the airport? And–
Christine: I mean, that part is kinda, for me, where it starts to fall apart like well, would it be this like obvious? Or like would people on TikTok just be wandering into it all the time, you know?
Em: Well, here are some of those clues.
Christine: ‘kay.
Em: The first one, because again, these are the people–
Christine: What if it was like a master riddle maker? Like remember, remember that movie Rat Race? And it was like–?
Em: [laughs] Yeah. What if it was me bored during COVID? And I made an escape room and– But, it just–
Christine: Literally! And you took all our money, and I didn’t even know about it, and funded all the billions that we have into the Denver Airport, put clues everywhere. It does feel like the only– Like a John Cleese movie or something, you know, where–
Em: Oh, John Cleese, haven’t heard that name in a long time.
Christine: I don’t know where that came from. I never know actors’ names. I don’t even know who that is, but it just–
Em: I always thought he would play an excellent mouse eating cheese. And I don’t know if that’s ‘cause his name is “Cleese” and “cheese.”
Christine: But doesn’t he do that?
Em: Doesn’t he?
Christine: No. See, see in my head, that is literally what he does, but maybe we both have–
Em: He looks like someone could make a clay, claymation rat of him eating cheese, and I’d be like, “That’s John Cleese.”
Christine: Oh my god, so he was in Rat Race. Okay, so that was him in Rat Race.
Em: Oh, maybe that’s why, ‘cause “Rat.” I’m an idiot.
Christine: Rat Race. Oh, wait, duh. Yeah. And also in that movie, there’s also, um– I– We used to watch that movie so often, and it’s like so bad. And, I– It’s, it’s like so bad, but we loved it as kids. We watched it all the fucking time for some reason. Um, but I–
Em: I– You know, I remember having that DVD, and it weirdly was always on loop too.
Christine: We had the VHS, baby.
Em: Oh, quit bragging.
Christine: We had no loop to speak of, but I had that rewind button. Um, anyway, yes, so it feels like a John Cleese, like an eccentric, like riddle ma– riddle master has too much money.
Em: He always was eccentric, and he was–
Christine: Right?
Em: John Cleese– He will go down in history as an eccentric rich man, always a little evil.
Christine: I’m telling you. And like it– Think of like a movie like Knives Out like, you know, just something like where it’s like, you know, okay, this– you have to suspend your disbelief to fa– to be like, oh, the clues, you know, they left clues for some reason.
Em: I mean, there is nobody else I would want to play Colonel Mustard. You know?
Christine: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You get it.
Em: I get it. Um, so here are some of the clues. And as I, as I say this, remember that most of these conspiracy theorists– The, the main thing are these tunnels. That is what caused everything else to be fucking weird.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Um, because everyone thought underground bunkers, obviously government something–
Christine: Sinister.
Em: Slash New World Order.
Christine: Oh, speaking of, Sinisterhood definitely covered this, which was really a fun episode, but it was a, a while ago.
Em: I, I bet. I bet they killed that.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: I bet they killed it. Um, so, sorry if I butcher it compared to them–
Christine: No, no, no, I mean.
Em: –which is likely.
Christine: Oh, come on. Don’t be so hard on yourself.
Em: Every time I listen to them, I go, “Man, what am I doing here?”
Christine: Well, one of them’s an attorney, we don’t have credential, credentials like that, so.
Em: [laughs] Um, okay, the first theory is that when you’re looking at it from an aerial view, which is easy to do at an airport, ‘cause you’re in a fucking plane.
Christine: [laughs] Sorry, I don’t know why I was like, “Oh? Why is that easy to do? Oh, I see. Right.”
Em: From an aerial view, apparently the layout of the runways look like a swastika.
Christine: Oh, yeah. I’ve seen that picture.
Em: Which, I g– if you’re looking for it, yes.
Christine: Right.
Em: But, you have to kind of ign– which we’ll, we’ll post pictures too for everyone, if you–
Christine: I need to look at it. Do you mind if I look it up real quick?
Em: Yeah, go for it. I should have sent you pictures. I didn’t even think about it.
Christine: No, it’s okay. I don’t remember. Aerial silks? No. What am I looking for? Aerial Denver.
Em: Swastika.
Christine: Oh god!
[laughs]
Christine: Yeah, it– you know what I mean.
Em: Type away, you little German. Type away.
Christine: You know, you know Google what I’m trying to say. International airport, here we go. Oh.
Em: But like it– Yes, yes.
Christine: Yeah, I mean, if you draw red lines on it in MS Paint like, yeah.
Em: You get it.
Christine: But I– From above, I wouldn’t– I mean–
Em: I– Unless you’re like–
Christine: Almost like you’re primed to see it, I think, right? Like it’s hard–
Em: Unless you're not– Unless you’re thinking about a New World Order, you wouldn’t look at that and go “swastika,” you know.
Christine: It’s like Eva’s tattoo. Like we were just like, “Hey, that sounds dirty,” and then we just couldn’t stop making it dirty.
Em: It– I know, I know, poor Eva. [sighs] Certainly an HR violation. I feel so bad.
Christine: At the least.
Em: I feel so bad.
Christine: At the least.
Em: Um, but, yeah, so if you’re looking at this– If, again, if you’re trying, I guess it looks like a swastika, but, um, if– You have to ignore other lines. Plus, the swastika isn’t even equal. One of the arms isn’t the same size as everything else.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Basically, um, the argument for this that the– Obviously, the airport had to make a fucking statement ‘cause people were like, “You’re Nazis.”
Christine: Yeah. Yeah.
Em: They said, no. Actually, this is like first of all, designed by renowned architects, so like fucking relax. Um, and they’re not Nazis. And also, this is just a pinwheel layout where if you look there’s several more arms than just four.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And the pinwheel layout helps to allow multiple runways to be used at once, so there isn’t delays.
Christine: Right. It feels like a normal– Like an airport would sensibly look that way, like I could understand that.
Em: I think it– I think an airport– I’m sure in their press statement at some point, they first wrote and then had to delete, “I can’t believe I have to say this, but.”
Christine: I can’t believe I have to say this [laughs].
Em: Similarly, the airport on the outside, their– Part of their, uh, design is that they have a lot of white tens outside, and, um, like covering up infrastructure. And a lot of people say, “Oh, well, those white tents look a lot like KKK hoods.”
Christine: Oh, jeez. Yeah, okay.
Em: But then the airport again had to be like, “No, this represents Colorado’s snow-capped mountains.” Like, leave us alone. [laughs]
Christine: Oh, dear. Oh, dear. [laughs] And that– It’s like hard to not believe that. Like that– It just s– sounds so sad, that it’s like– I trust that. I believe that. Snow-capped mountains.
Em: Yeah. Still, like, there are people out there who con– who use this at least to confirm, “Oh, obviously, this place is either ran by a Nazis or a New World Order or operates with them or the bunkers underneath the airport are for them.”
Christine: That’s– But it’s just wild to think like– Were they in a brainstorming meeting, and they were like, “Well, we want a, like a fun clue hidden from aerial view.”
Em: [laughs] I guess so.
Christine: You know what I mean? It’s like, “Well, you got the tents, like we wanna be the shape of the building.” It– Like I don’t know. It just seems–
Christine: Like if anything, couldn’t you have said, “Oh my god, there’s a pinwheel, and now it looks like a hypnosis wheel, and I’m being–“ You know, you could have come up with anything.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, whatever. Exactly. Or you could be like– [sighs] I don’t know. It’s just, it just seems a little silly that, that they would be so concerned with like hiding clues of their symbols in the–
Em: Also, like you’re not hiding anything if you have an obvious swastika somewhere.
Christine: Exactly, exactly.
Em: That’s not hiding shit. It’s not like a hidden Mickey ears, you know?
Christine: It’s not subtle. Right, right. Wouldn’t you be like, “Oh, let’s make it the least swastika-looking thing possible. Just in case.” Right?
Em: Yeah. [laughs] Yes.
Christine: Like if you were actually– I don’t know. It just seems like kind of a tenuous argument.
Em: Uh, well, so–
Christine: Remember how I was like so on the conspiracy train five minutes ago, and now I’m like, “That’s so unreasonable”?
Em: I did, I did [laughs]. Look, okay! But, evidence again that conspiracy theories are slippery slopes, and–
Christine: Yes! Very true, very true.
Em: Very quickly p– even the smartest people in the world can get caught up in the wrong thing.
Christine: Good point.
Em: Re: QAnon.
Christine: Well said.
Em: Um, so speaking of the, the art installation of the snow-capped mountains to cover the infrastructure, one of the big things about the DIA, or the Denver Airport, is that they have this really great public art program–
Christine: Yes.
Em: –where they are known for having a lot of art in their, in their, uh, in their airport. Obviously, it’s being like involved in their infrastructure as well to make it look like mountains and be a– pay an homage to the state. But this art program dedicates 1% of every construction project budget to art.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: So, right now– I don’t know actually about right now, I don’t– The source I think was two years old, but at the time, at least in the 2020s, there are usually around 40 installations in the airport to pay attention to.
Christine: Oh, wow.
Em: Um, and a lot of them have become these clues that people have read into.
Christine: Yeah. [laughs] I’m sure.
Em: Which I– I mean, imagine being stuck in an airport, and you just look at every mural, and you’re like, “What does this one mean? What does this one mean? What does this– Oh my god, it all– it’s all making sense.”
Christine: It’s like what you said. Unless you’re looking for a swastika, it’s like– Well, I guess you could start finding clues to whatever you wanted to– Yeah, yeah. I could see that, especially with the art.
Em: Well, the most famous art piece at the airport, which you probably know about, is “Blucifer”.
Christine: Mm, yes. Blucifer.
Em: So, “Blucifer” is, uh, a piece that was originally called “Mustang,” and it was by Luis Jimenez. And he is now nicknamed “Blucifer” because he is this big-ass blue horse. He’s a 9,000 pound statue. He’s 32 feet tall. And he stands out front of the airport where– so when you’re driving in, you can see him from the highway. When you’re flying away, he’s on the runway with you. Um.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: And, uh, they call him Blucifer because he honestly looks really fucking scary.
Christine: He’s like a huge blue fucking horse.
Em: And not only that, but if you get a close–
Christine: Did we say it’s a horse?
Em: Yes, yes.
Christine: Okay. [laughs]
Em: Um, and if you google him– If you google like an up-close picture of him, he’s not only just scary from far away, but he has like scars all over his face. He looks really demonic. And–
Christine: Aren’t his like testicles in it?
Em: He does seem to have a, a, somewhat of a package.
Christine: Like his– some cojones? Yeah.
Em: Even without trying, if he’s 32 feet tall, they’re–
Christine: Yeah, I guess so, you– I guess you– if you wanna be anatomically correct, sure.
Em: The thing that’s the most demonic about Blucifer though is that he has neon glowing red eyes.
Christine: Like, I mean, that part–
Em: So, day or night, you can see at least eyes glowing from the airport.
Christine: Like that’s pretty weird, right guys? That’s pretty weird.
Em: It’s super weird. And one of the other reasons why he is called Blucifer, not just because he’s this big fucking scary demonic horse-looking thing, is because he killed his own creator.
Christine: [gasps] I– yes, that’s right. I forgot about that. Oh, it’s horrible.
Em: So, he was created by, uh, Luis Jimenez, and in 2006, when Luis was working on him, part of the head of Blucifer fell off, landed on him, and severed an artery in his leg, and he died.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: So, Luis’s kids–
Christine: I mean, Jesus Christ, that’s so horrifying.
Em: Luis’s kids ended up finishing the statue in his honor, and it went to the airport two years later in 2008. But conspiracy theorists think that, not only is he scary and demonic-looking, he’s got glowing red eyes; uh, he killed his own creator; um, he– they now also think he obviously represents the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. And then the airport had to come out and go, “No, he’s an art piece, and he represents Denver as a gateway to the American West.” Like, he’s a horse.
Christine: Mm. That, that, that feels like a PR spin.
Em: You know–
Christine: The gateway to the Americ– What? Okay.
Em: I guess ‘cause Colorado is–
Christine: Well, what about like Broncos? I thought it was Broncos.
Em: You would– Colorado– Well, the Denver Broncos, right, so maybe that’s a part of it.
Christine: That’s what I mean. I thought they– I thought they were, were like, “Oh, we’re the horse state.”
Em: I don’t know. Maybe Broncos are also because it’s a gateway to the American West. [laughs] I don’t fucking know.
Christine: I guess so. I mean, a wild Bronco, I guess so, rodeo style.
Em: Um, so, yeah. And on top of that, by the way, the reason he’s blue, ‘cause people seem to be– think that that’s part of the conspiracy. They’re like, “Oh, the blue means something.” Okay, relax. The blue is because Luis had, actually did have a horse named Black Jack. And Black Jack was a Blue Roan Appaloosa.
Christine: Aw.
Em: And this horse, I guess, has black and white hairs that mix so well that it actually looks like a blue tint.
Christine: I literally thought you said a h– a dog. You– It’s a horse? He had a horse?
Em: Yes.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: He had a horse named Black Jack.
Christine: I think I heard dog in my head, and I’m–
Em: Maybe I said dog. Shit, now I don’t know.
Christine: I don’t– I don’t know. I think it was just me.
Em: Uh, so that’s why he’s blue. It’s just because his own actual horse looked blue. Um.
Christine: Oh, well, I mean that’s– makes sense.
Em: Good reason.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And the glowing red eyes, obviously, everyone’s like, “Well, that’s demonic.”
Christine: That part I don’t– I get stuck on that.
Em: This is an homage to Luis or Luis’s father. I’m not sure which one, but one of them.
Christine: Is it Louise or like Luis? Like, uh– Sorry, this is a side question.
Em: Sorry, Luis. I’m sorry I’m slurring. It’s Luis.
Christine: No, no. I was just making sure.
Em: Um, but the glowing red eyes are an homage to him or his father because when they were learning their own artistic skills, they worked at a neon shop. And so the neon shop like meant something to the family, so when they were finishing the piece, they put glowing neon red eyes.
Christine: He’s like, “Where to put neon? I know. The eyes will beam out.” I mean, it’s kinda scary.
Em: It’s also, uh, because– the, the red eyes have a second story to it too, which is that Luis, uh, had his own horse, Black Jack. Luis was going home one day and looked in, in the windows of his own home and saw glowing red eyes, and when he walked in, Black Jack had somehow broken into the house.
Christine: Ohh. Okay, that’s a great story.
Em: It’s a funny story. Like, “How did my horse get in here?” [laughs]
Christine: That’s a great story. My blue horse with red eyes. That’s literally what he created, and it feels like he didn’t– It almost is like that thing where you do something, but you don’t realize like how crazy it sounds on the outside ‘cause it’s so normal in your head.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And he’s like, “What do you mean? It’s a blue horse with red neon eyes. What’s so weird about that?”
Em: I know. And, and honestly, his wife actually had a funny thing– Well, not a funny, but like a poignant thing to say about it where when discussing “Blucifer” and Blucifer’s red eyes, uh, Luis’s wife said, “The red eyes show” (based on that story of Black Jack breaking in) “that sometimes things are only scary because you don’t know what it is.”
Christine: Aw, that is poignant.
Em: Or because it’s unfamiliar or unknown.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So, despite all that, people are like, “Blucifer’s cursed. He causes chaos at the, uh, airport.” Meanwhile, it’s like some, some kids like helped finish their dead dad’s art project.
Christine: It’s hor– it’s horrible, like in a state of trauma probably. Yeah.
Em: And officials have, or airport officials have at least have come out and been like, “No, he’s supposed to be a protector of all the travelers coming from near and far. And he guards the airport.”
Christine: Is he a gateway or a protector, Em? They have to make up their damn minds.
Em: And he’s not a Bronco, apparently. He’s a mustang, so that really throws things off.
Christine: Oh, no, no, no, I looked this up. I looked this up. So, it’s not a type of– A bronco is just like a– Hold on, I looked this up one time, ‘cause I was like, “What’s the difference between a bronco and a mustang?”
Em: Oh.
Christine: Yeah, I, I–
Em: And an Appaloosa, which is who he’s actually based off of.
Christine: That’s maybe why I thought you said dog, because I think, in my head, that’s a type of dog. I mean, it’s like not. Um, it’s an untamed horse, so it can just mean any type of horse.
Em: Oh! So, he– See? Okay, so he is a bronco.
Christine: So, he is a bronco.
Em: So, that makes sense too. So that– and that adds to it. Perfect.
Christine: Yep, yep.
Em: But anyway, people are like, “He’s obviously terrifying,” which he does look terrifying. I gotta–
Christine: I mean, he is terrifying, actively. And a, a horse in your house is also terrifying. So like it’s– I’m not saying it’s not true, I’m just saying it, it’s, equally terrifying.
Em: Which leads to one of the reasons why the Denver Airport has like– is so creepy is because even though they have this like wonderful art program, most of the art they pick is really fucking weird.
Christine: Okay, yeah.
Em: Um, including “Blucifer,” like a demonic blue horse with glowing red eyes, of course–
Christine: I mean, it’s a wild choice, yeah.
Em: People are gonna have questions.
Christine: People are gonna talk. The neighbors are gonna talk.
Em: You can’t be surprised when people are like, “Wait a minute, what’s going on?”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Another piece of weird art they that they put in, um, are gargoyles and–
Christine: Oh, yes! Oh my god.
Em: So my favorite thing about this, because the guy is so quippy. The artist’s name is Terry Allen, and he titled this art piece, “Notre Denver.”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Love that. Um, and these gargoyles sit inside suitcases near baggage claim to watch over your bags.
Christine: I mean, it’s very sweet. I love it.
Em: It’s very sweet.
Christine: I love it.
Em: Fun fact: they sit in Samsonite suitcases, because the Samsonite factory, uh, was in Denver at the time.
Christine: Oh, I love that.
Em: Uh, so another nod to Denver. Um, many see these gargoyles, and of course, because they don’t have any information, they go, “Ah, dark scary gargoyles!” Okay?
Christine: Mm-hm.
Em: But, gargoyles are meant to pro– be protectors and watch over you.
Christine: That’s right.
Em: Um, and so, some take a totally different meaning with this, but literally, they’re just supposed to watch your luggage come out of baggage claim. That’s it. That’s fucking it.
Christine: I love it.
Em: Here’s the best fucking part. One of the gargoyles– They came out with this, um, marketing campaign, I’m going to get into the marketing campaign–
Christine: The gargoyle did? [laughs]
Em: No, no, no, sorry. The airport. There’s one, there’s one woman who I’m going to talk about later, she–
Christine: One studied PR in college. [laughs]
Em: She– there’s this one woman who I’m going to talk about later. Her name’s Stacey. We love Stace.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: Um, she did a lot of PR campaigns, marketing ideas, and one of them was she had installed this, uh, other gargoyle named Greg.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And Greg was an interactive gargoyle who talk, who talked back and forth with the guests.
Christine: No! [gasps] That’s crazy.
Em: Like a, like a tree at Disney or whatever, like one of those things.
Christine: Oh my gosh.
Em: Like Crush, the turtle. Um, and so he would just say–
Christine: What? Oh, oh, oh my god. Sorry. I thought you said, “Crush the turtle,” sorry. I get it now.
Em: Crus– sorry. Crush, comma, the turtle from Finding Nemo.
Christine: Crush from Finding Nemo. Yeah, yeah.
Em: Um, so he was like an interactive gargoyle who would be like, “Oh, you with the blue suitcase, blah blah blah blah blah.”
Christine: Yeah. Oh my god, that’s so freaky by the way.
Em: I know. So, a lot of people thought it was too freaky.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And especially the people, I think, who already tie this airport to Satanic shit or dark stuff, they’re like, “Now a gargoyle talks to us, are you fucking kidding me?”
Christine: Now, there’s like an active person watching us like, “Oh, look, you in the blue suitcase,” I mean not that people aren’t already watching people at the airport, right? But, yeah, it’s weird.
Em: I do get the idea of like, oh it’s to like get you hyped up that you’re like off your flight and you’re gonna like hang out with everyone or like–
Christine: Welcome to Denver! Yeah.
Em: Yeah. Um, but some people thought it was so demonic that Greg got shut down and is now just a– He’s still an animatronic, but he only says pre-recorded phrases.
Christine: Aw, man.
Em: But I like that they still had theirs at the end because the pre-recordings are still hysterical.
Christine: Okay.
Em: One of them is “Welcome to Illuminati Headquarters. I- I mean the Denver International Airport.”
[laughs]
Christine: Okay! This is so good. They leaned into it. See, this is the kind of shit I– Stacey is ahead of her time, man.
Em: I love Stacey.
Christine: Man.
Em: She also– he said something– Someone posted a TikTok of the gargoyle recently who said– You know how gargoyles are like squatting?
Christine: Yeah.
Em: [laughs] The gargoyle goes, “Ugh! My knees!”
[laughs]
Christine: Oh my– [laughs] That was me going up the stairs today, yeah.
Em: And then he says something else about like, “Someone make me a Tinder account. It’s so lonely up here.”
Christine: Oh, so they update it with stuff?
Em: I guess so. I guess so.
Christine: Oh, maybe that was a while ago. But, that’s so funny.
Em: Anyway, love Greg the gargoyle.
Christine: Imagine having an MDb and being like the voice of Greg the gargoyle, like that must be such a high esteemed award, yeah. Esteemed accomplishment.
Em: That’s on someone’s resume, yeah. Well, so that’s one piece– that’s another art. So there’s “Blucifer”; there’s Greg the gargoyle. There’s gargoyles in general, so I think there’s multiple gargoyles, but Greg was the only interactive one for a while.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Um, then the other big thing that’s like the end of the world, this is obviously a sign of doomsday. Uh, are– there’s some murals of these 40 installations.
Christine: Oh, yes. Murals.
Em: These, um– This artwork that is super popular with conspiracy theorists– There are two murals. Both made by a guy named Leo Tanguma. And, um, to be honest, when you look at it, just like “Blucifer’, just like the gargoyles, it’s fucking weird-looking. It’s a weird mural. Um, but it’s just art that also is supposed to be a conversation piece.
Christine: ‘Kay.
Em: So, it has very like bright colors while having very disturbing images, so it like looks fun and draws you in and then when you look at it, it’s actually really fucked up. Um–
Christine: Oh. What’s, uh, sorry. What’s it called? Or, I guess I can just search Denver mural.
Em: I’ll, I’ll tell you in a second. I’m gonna give you the name in a second.
Christine: Oh, you will, okay.
Em: Um, but to give you an idea, just so you know that you found the right mural, I guess, when you google it. Some of the images that are disturbing in this that have bright colors and everything– There’s are a Nazi with a gas mask holding an assault rifle and a sword that’s stabbing a bird.
Christine: Oh my god.
Em: There’s images of dying animals, kids in coffins. There’s a letter from a kid from Auschwitz.
Christine: Oh my god!
Em: There’s fire storms. There’s lots of destruction and chaos. Um, and theorists claim that these murals obviously represent like a New World Order or a plan for a takeover or something about like really scary power.
Christine: Right.
Em: But, in reality, the murals have other meanings, and they are warnings of what could come when it comes to injustices, climate change, violence, war.
Christine: Sure.
Em: So, it’s meant to scare you, to be like “this is what could happen.”
Christine: It’s like a reminder, like a historic reminder. Yeah, yeah.
Em: Yes. So, I will tell you the names now. There’s two murals. There’s one, if you wanted to look it up, called “The Children of the World Dream of Peace.”
Christine: Okay, I definitely remember googling this when I listened to Sinisterhood ages ago, and I was like– I can’t believe– Like they were saying things, and I was like, “That can’t be true. Like, there’s, there’s no way.” Okay, got “Children of the World”. Oh, I mean, it looks– It really looks unassuming. Hold on. What– What’s wrong?
Em: Yeah, it– It’s like–
Christine: Where’s the guy? Where’s the scary guy?
Em: So, there’s two pieces, so that’s, that’s one of the pieces.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And then the other one is called “In Peace and Harmony with Nature.”
Christine: Ohh. Okay. ‘Cause I was like, I don’t see anything scary, but I’m also very oblivious.
Em: No, you’re good– But that’s kind of the point too. It just– It looks happy and unassuming and then when you really pay attention to it, it’s like, oh shit.
Christine: Ooh, yeah. What the hell?
Em: And it, it looks– also when you first look at it, it’s pretty trippy. I mean, the colors are really bright.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: There’s a lot going on. There’s a lot to look at. Um, and so, it does–
Christine: Feels like hallucinogenic almost, yeah.
Em: Yes, it looks very like–
Christine: Trippy.
Em: –like a Beatles’s album art or something.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Um, so one of them depicts war versus peace, and another one shows the contrast between environmental ruin versus environmental healing.
Christine: Oh, I see what’s happening. ‘Cause there’s fires. Okay, oh my god.
Em: Yes. So, on top of all that, the mural–
Christine: Also, very timely.
Em: Yeah. Still, yeah.
Christine: Unfortunately.
Em: On top of that, the murals, uh, often are looked at the wrong way because, I guess, um, the murals have two sides to them. So like– And I don’t know if that was a, a physical different side or like if it’s just like literary, metaphorically, there’s two sides to this.
Christine: Oh, right.
Em: Um, that’s what, that’s what I think is going on here. Um, but yeah, there’s two sides here, and people, I think, just see the really creepy shit, and then they just forget that there might be like a meaning to that or there’s a piece to it. And um, many just see chaotic creepy murals and then misinterpret it from there.
Christine: Oh my lord. I mean, it is fre– it is freaky, for sure.
Em: And, uh, due to renovations, they have actually had to temporarily remove the murals, and then that caused its own stir.
Christine: Oh, I’m sure it did.
Em: Because theorists then believed the murals were put away because we knew too much and we were on to them. And that, uh–
Christine: Yes. [laughs] They, they’ll never figure it out.
Em: Yeah, and that the, the airport’s New World Order plan is now, now they have to cover it up quick and hide it. But, no, it’s just temporarily in storage while they’re doing renovations.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Um, but there are other murals that have similar, uh, like tension behind them, I guess. That’s according to conspiracy theorists. There’s like one mural that suggests that, um– It’s proving that flat Earth is true.
Christine: Okay. I knew that was coming.
Em: There’s another one that says COVID, COVID was planned by the deep state. Um, there was another one–
Christine: Yeah. Oh, I’ve seen– There’s an IUD, I think. Am I crazy?
Em: An IUD?
Christine: In this pink mural.
Em: Oh, I’m not looking at the mural right now. I– probably, probably so.
Christine: Oh, you didn’t get– It’s like really small, so I’m like, you probably wouldn’t even see it, but– I’m like zooming in on all the flowers, and one of them like very much looks like an IUD. But, I don’t know.
Em: Interesting.
Christine: I could be just reading into– But I guess that’s how people end up reading into stuff, so what do I know.
Em: Well, there’s another art installment you’ll be interested in that was an over 20 foot tall statue of Anubis, the, uh, Egyptian god of death.
Christine: Oh gosh.
Em: Of course, people read into that because like, oh, now the god of death is here.
Christine: I mean, that’s a wild choice for an airport again, but all of this is a wild choice for an airport.
Em: They’re making wild, a wild choice– I don’t think they get to go, “Why are people so freaked out?”, you know?
Christine: Yeah, bold choice. Yes.
Em: So far, I haven’t talked about a normal thing, I’ll tell you that, um.
Christine: I know. That’s very true. That’s very true.
Em: But, I will say, um, as for the two murals that I’m talking about right now, people have joked about the weirdness of the murals. They have also obv- obviously gone as far as assuming doomsday conspiracy theories, but, I just want to put this out there because I haven’t seen anyone else talking about this, that the artist and his daughter, who collaborated, I think, on some of the art, they have both been constantly harassed for their work.
Christine: [gasps] Oh jeez.
Em: Um, people have sent them death threats. People have said things like they wanted 9/11 to happen.
Christine: Oh my god.
Em: People have said their art is evil. They’ve lost commissions because people thought they were like up to some nefarious thing with their art.
Christine: Right.
Em: Meanwhile, despite all the weirdness of their art– Yes, it is weird. We gotta give it to– It, it’s odd-looking when you first look at it, and you’re like, “What the hell am I looking at?”
Christine: It, it’s that word, provocative, you know. It’s provocative.
Em: Yes, yes. Striking. Um.
Christine: Yeah, it’s very, very striking.
Em: But, at the end of the day, not just these two murals, but all pieces that Tanguma, uh, Leo Tanguma, has done, they were all a-about injustices in the world.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So, he has been making pieces like this since literal childhood. In Texas, he made one about police brutality, which, I think, actually ruined his reputation in Texas, and he had to leave.
Christine: Mm.
Em: Um, he also made pieces, uh, multiple times in protest for civil rights. So, he’s like on the right side of history, and he just wants to do something that’s going to shock you, so that way you talk about it, you know.
Christine: I mean, it’s like very obviously– I mean, to me– Okay, this is like– To say it’s just obvious is not really fair, but like I’m looking at the image of the Nazi soldier with the– And it’s like very clear that he’s the villain of this art piece, and he’s stabbing the– a dove, like a symbol of piece.
Em: A dove of peace.
Christine: Yeah, and it’s like, I mean, obviously this is like a statement on soci– you know, society.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Like I, I don’t know. I feel like– It’s not like, “Oh, wow, look. The Nazi has like a halo and is the king of the world.” Like, I don’t know.
Em: Yeah. And everyone’s kissing his feet, yeah.
Christine: Yes, exactly.
Em: I, I mean, I think, um, with an inch, an ounce, a splash of critical thinking or media literacy or anything of that, people can look at that and go, “This is obviously meant to invoke something.”
Christine: Right. Oh my god, Em. “A splash of media literacy.” You are saying all sorts of [laughs] like deeply smart things today.
Em: [kisses air] You’re welcome.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Um, but so anyway, I like– It’s just I think if you’re– If you just think about what art is supposed to do, it’s supposed to make you feel and–
Christine: Right, exactly.
Em: It disturb– be disturbed and–
Christine: I mean, if the god of death statue was there, that would be my– Like that would be my main concern if I were getting on an airplane, not like, oh Nazis are bad mural.
Em: [laughs] Yeah, me too. I’d be like, “This, this–“ I will say, this airport has to be a nightmare for people with like anxiety and OCD beca–
Christine: For real.
Em: Like reading into anything.
Christine: Because I’m just like, “Oh my god.” And then you start thinking about it, and now am I like creating it that I’m thinking about it?
Em: Like, why is the last thing that I saw a demonic horse and the statue of death, like a, a god of death?
Christine: Yeah. It, it feels like a bad sign. [laughs]
Em: Well, just to finish out my like little spiel, um, promoting their art, I also want to say that in the murals, there are a lot of children in those murals. And the kids that he painted were not only his own family, they were young activists who died–
Christine: [gasps]
Em: And they were, um, a bunch of kids who have passed away, and his– their parents asked him to memorialize them in a painting.
Christine: Oh, jeez. Well, that’s beautiful.
Em: And not only that, but he– I guess, they all came from different backgrounds, and so he asked about their cultures, and he was able, in these murals alone, to represent 70 different countries in the murals based on what they’re dressed in or whatever.
Christine: That’s remarkable.
Em: So, he made big efforts to be inclusive, which is also part of the art, right, is like human connection will prevent these bad things from happening.
Christine: Exactly. Exactly.
Em: So, um, I just wanted to give a shoutout because a lot of people just immediately– Especially the, the sources I was looking at– I was trying to look at everything from like, you know, normal sites to like YouTube to TikTok to whatever, and everyone just goes, “This is the craziest harbinger of doom.” And, and it’s like these people were just trying to say like there’s injustice in the world, you know. So.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. And there’s this like massive building that’s fun– like trying to promote like– Make a statement and promote local art or promote artists. It’s just like I– It feels like a very easy understanding.
Em: Yeah, especially to promote, to promote art of people who are like against police brutality and are fighting for human rights and then now, now like they’re losing commissions because they’re like too controversial, you know, so.
Christine: Yeah, and it’s like, is that controversial to say like, hm, Nazis are not bringing peace? [laughs]
Em: Yeah, exactly. So, uh, just wanted to give a shoutout to them.
Christine: Um, but I, I see why people are like, “Yikes, there’s a fucking Nazi on the wall of the airport.” Yes, I do understand. I do. It’s just like–
Em: Yes. It’s one of those things where I wanna give both sides credit.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. It’s pretty bold.
Em: It’s like, yeah, it is freaky. I would absolutely make a comment walking past it, and I’d go, “Why the fuck is there a Nazi on this wall?”
Christine: I’d google– I’d re– I’d google it immediately and be like, “Am I imagining things?” Yeah.
Em: Yes. Yes. And on top of that, you think, well, there’s a Nazi in this mural. The swastika in the aerial view. Like people can– It’s–
Christine: Right. Make the connections that they– Yeah.
Em: Yes. I appreciate that the airport and like their art program, they’re trying to do different original things.
Christine: Right.
Em: But, it also like gives so much fodder to like to add to the conspiracy theories, you know.
Christine: Yeah, yeah.
Em: So another one is that– This is a wild one, but I really like it, um, just because it’s like someone re– I think just wanted to have an opinion and just shouted this one out, and it stuck. Um, in the movie, the Close Encounters of the Third Kind, apparently, aliens give humans a set of coordinates. Someone decided these are obviously the coordinates of the Denver Airport. And–
Christine: Wait, are they?
Em: Shockingly close. They’re an hour from, which is interesting.
Christine: [gasps] ‘Cause you said someone “decided” they were the coordinates. I was like, what do you mean “they decided it”? So they– but they like looked it up, and it was–
Em: They just looked up, and I think they just saw Colorado, and they went, “It’s the Denver Airport!”
Christine: Oh, I see. So, they just decided it was close enough.
Em: This– It’s also– Some people think that these coordinates are– um, were given to the architects by aliens, so that way they could build the Denver airport, aka their own extraterrestrial hub, um. And so for that reason, people now think that aliens are either stored or hidden or are controlling us or live– something.
Christine: Stored?
Em: Something about aliens in the tunnels.
Christine: So, they’re either in charge or they’re like prisoners. Nobody knows.
Em: There’s no in between.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Um, maybe they store themselves. I don’t fucking know.
Christine: Maybe they’re the ultra-new baggage system that everyone’s raving about.
Em: Maybe they were shredding all the luggage. They’re like, “Get out of my house!”
Christine: Oh my god, this is where I live and rule and work also.
Em: [laughs] And store myself.
Christine: And am in prison and in storage. [laughs]
Em: But, so, because of the potential alien thing– I mean, it’s so easy to add aliens to an airfield.
Christine: Oh, yeah. Totally. Especially when it’s like billions of funding by the FAA, you’re like, well.
Em: Yeah, and it’s allegedly a 75 mile golf cart ride to an Air Force base, you know.
Christine: Mm-hmm. [laughs] Golf cart ride, yeah.
Em: Um, but so because of this, a lot of people think that, “Well, Roswell is Area 51. This is obviously Area 52.” So, people call this Area 52.
Christine: Ohh, ‘kay. I see.
Em: And it, it just justifies that aliens– Sometimes people do the whole lizard people thing, um–
Christine: Right, right.
Em: That they all must be in those tunnels, and that’s why nobody is, is allowed down there.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Okay. Now, this is where I also mention aliens in a different way, because throughout the design of the airport there’s a lot of, um, uh, quote, I’ll say “weird”, without knowledge, uh, inscriptions or engravings throughout, uh, the airport.
Christine: Oh, I see.
Em: A lot of people have decided that these quote “odd” or just different to you inscriptions are obviously alien language or secret society language.
Christine: It like– It feels so medieval when you present it that way, ‘cause it’s like, “Oh, we saw something we don’t understand. It’s extraterrestrial–“
Em: Aliens, yeah.
Christine: “Or it’s Satan”, you know, back in the day. Like, it’s the devil, but it’s like–
Em: It’s obviously demonic hieroglyphics. That’s the way they would probably put it.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Um, so some of these – I will butcher these – but some of the, uh, inscriptions are like “BESH DIT GAII,” “DZIT DIT GAII,” “NIINENII NIICIE,” “SIS NAAJINI”. Like, it’s like it’s, it’s things that are obviously not English.
Christine: Right.
Em: And because Americans are scared of everything, the second it’s not English, it must be Satanic.
Christine: Yeah, of course.
Em: And, this is where I remind everybody, ha-ha, actually not demonic. This is literally Indigenous language.
Christine: Oh, woof. I mean, come on guys.
Em: Yes. So, and, by the way, just a–
Christine: And, like that takes a quick google, you know what I mean.
Em: Quick.
Christine: That’s like where– That’s what bothers me is like– It’s like, okay. Yeah, you can look at it and go, “What could that possibly mean?” But like, then look it up and be like, oh, that’s interesting. I mean, I don’t know.
Em: I mean, if I saw a word I didn’t know, I would just go, “What does that say?”
Christine: What is that? Yeah. I wouldn’t be like, “That’s fucking Satan.”
Em: I mean, it’s obvious– My first thought would be, ‘cause I would assume we’re in, in the United States, so it would be English, so that would be my first thought, which is ignorant. But that would be my first thought. And then I’d go, “Did they misspell something? Or do I not know what that word is?” That, that would just be my first thought.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, apparently, this is, uh, Navajo language, and they are different phrases that say things like, “White Metal,” which for, I guess, that language meant silver. Um, “The Mountain that is White,” aka White Mountain.
Christine: Oh, cool.
Em: “Tallow River,” which is, uh, the Navajo name for part of the river near the airport. Uh, and then another one says, “A mountain sacred–“ Oh, it– I think it says like “Mount Blaca”– “Mount Blac– Blanca or Blanca Peak,” and it’s a mountain sacred to the Navajo people. So, but, but they, they have meaning. They just– people assume, you know, the wrong thing.
Christine: Right. Yeah, yeah.
Em: And two words that are not Navajo but also secret alien language are “Braaksma” and “Villarreal,” which are the names of the artists.
Christine: Oh. And those are like not that w– like–
Em: They’re not that weird. They’re just not direct like words you see all the time.
Christine: Yeah. Wow, that’s– Wow. Yeah, that’s a stretch. People are, uh, pushing it.
Em: But, but because of that, people also say, “Oh, well, the reason that this place is so cursed and full of mystery is because this was built on Indigenous land.” Of course they always bring that up.
Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Um, another example is that on the floor somewhere in the airport–
Christine: [laughs] Then everything’s cursed, by the way. It’s like–
Em: I know. It’s like–
Christine: [laughs] I was like, and by the way, it is. So, I don’t know. At the end of the day, what the fuck have we done?
Em: Well, so another example is on the floor somewhere in the airport, there’s an inscription that says “Au” and then “Ag.”
Christine: Okay. Yeah, like gold and silver. Oh! So like–
Em: Thank you! That’s exactly it.
Christine: Oh. Oh, I thought we were gonna talk about like, um, uh, alchemy or something. And they were gonna be like, “Oh, it’s the Illuminati alchemy.”
Em: It’s literally supposed to be fucking gold and silver, silver and gold.
Christine: Oh.
Em: Um, for Colorado’s mining history.
Christine: Yeah, okay.
Em: People, however, have taken this to mean “Au Ag” is “the Australian Antigen.”
Christine: Oh, okay, okay, okay. Yeah, I see what’s happening. Okay. Got it.
Em: And theorists say that these are hints that they have put, uh, throughout to let people know how the, the downfall of humanity will play out because the Illuminati and the deep state are going to use the Australian Antigen on people. Which–
Christine: Thank you for letting us know, by the way. Like, what?
Em: I know. Like, isn’t the point of biological warfare that I won’t find out until it’s too late?
Christine: Surprise? Yeah, you’re not supposed to warn me decades in advance.
Em: Um, well, fun fact: the Australian Antigen does exist. It’s also an antigen. It’s not to hurt you.
Christine: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Em: Apparently, it helps diagnose and/or treat Hepatitis B.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Um, so, I think we’re fine. If– [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
Em: If the, if the Australian Antigen comes up–
Christine: It, it doesn’t seem, seem as sinister as maybe it like sounds.
Em: Something that heals and treats? Okay, great. Um, plus the inscription of “Au” and “Ag”– I, I couldn’t find evidence of this, but, um, on one, on one, uh, site I looked at, it said that that inscription is actually part of a bigger piece, and the piece actually, um, builds out this Native American design, this Indigenous design. So, um, just a–
Christine: Oh. And the, they’re gonna go to Australia and bring back a fucking Hepatitis B vaccine? Thank you.
Em: [laughs] Thank you, I guess. Okay, so the last thing that I’ll talk about is there is also, um, this dedication plaque where, uh– In, in the airport, there is a time capsule that was put in.
Christine: Ah, Em loves a time capsule.
Em: Em? Or Em and Christine? Let’s get it straight real quick.
Christine: Okay, here’s what I have to say.
Em: What do you– Fix it. What?
Christine: I have such a– I have such a– I have such an anxiety about time capsules, because I’m like I, I can not wait to do that. Like I–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Not that I can’t wait like I’m excited. Like I just f– I, I’m unable. It’s an inability of mine to, to wait for something, especially if you tell me it’s like 20 years. Like, I love a time capsule when I’m like opening it. That’s all.
Em: Uh-huh. I get it.
Christine: I don’t like the rest of it. I fucking hate it, actually. It makes me so stressed.
Em: I want to find a time capsule in the walls of something and open it now, yes.
Christine: Oh, absolutely. That’s, that’s like my dream. I actually bought something a couple weeks ago that’s supposed to help me find stuff in the walls, and then I was like, I need– I actually had to delete Amazon from my phone, ‘cause I was like, this is really unhealthy how much I’m just like buying shit on Amazon that is not– Like I’m funding the whole New World Order by purchasing stuff from Amazon that’s just going to help me find treasures in the wall.
Em: Oh.
Christine: And then I don’t like find treasures in the wall.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Anyway, I’ve, I’ve had like a kind of, in case no one can tell, like a mental breakdown over the last two months. But, I’m fine now, I think.
[laughs]
Em: You know what? And that’s the– all we can hope for. Okay.
Christine: So, so anyway. [laughs] So anyway, as I was saying– no. Um.
Em: As I was saying, I’m fine now, but I have a lot of anxiety.
Christine: Okay, sorry. I love a time– I love a time capsule at the end.
Em: Mm-hmm. I understand. And unfortunately, you would have wait a lot longer for this time capsule because it–
Christine: See, I can’t– I can’t abide by this. This is unacceptable.
Em: It opens in 2094.
Christine: See, like, I, I’m actually having like an existential crisis now, ‘cause like I’ll be dead. And it’s like, oh, then I’ll never know. And it just makes me so crazy.
Em: Okay, but to assuage your anxiety, here’s what’s inside.
Christine: Oh, thank god. Actually, this really does deeply assuage my anxiety. Thank you.
Em: [laughs] As for as we know, these are the things inside. I don’t– I hate– I hate when they end it with “and other items.” Fuck you!
Christine: Yeah, no. That’s not fair.
Em: Fucking finish your list.
Christine: ‘Cause you know, ‘cause you know that like the other items in there, something would be so much more interesting to us than whatever they listed.
Em: Yes! Like shut up. “Other items”?
Christine: Like let me see– Let me decide what’s interesting.
Em: Tell me or don’t. Which is it?
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, which is it?
Em: What? Give me half the list?
Christine: Exact, exactly.
Em: So inside is a Colorado flag – mm, okay.
Christine: Okay.
Em: There is airport opening day newspapers.
Christine: Well, that’s fun.
Em: There’s a credit card, which these days is actually really a time capsule piece ‘cause no one really uses them any more now that you’ve got your tap-to-pay, you know.
Christine: It’s like why did you think this would not give me anxiety? And now you’re like, “Hey, credit cards are, uh, obsolete.”
Em: Obsolete.
Christine: And I’m like, “Wait, are they? I don’t even know how to use Apple Pay. Help!” [laughs]
Em: So are the next thing: coins.
Christine: Oh. That was the bane of my existence, yeah.
Em: There’s also a baseball from Coors Field. There are Black Hawk Casino tokens.
Christine: Oh.
Em: And then there’s the Denver Mayor Wellington Webb’s sneakers from his sneaker political campaign where he walked door-to-door while campaigning. And those sneakers are in the, the time capsule.
Christine: [laughs] That feels like out of a book. I don’t know.
Em: That feels like a Michael Scott move. “Here’s my sneaker campaign. I’m just gonna walk door-to-door.”
Christine: “And then I’m like gonna time capsule these for myself for 90 years down the road.” Yeah.
Em: Well, above the time capsule is a dedication plaque. And on the plaque is a symbol from the Freemasons. So, here we fucking go.
Christine: Uh-oh.
Em: On top of– not on top of the symbol, but, additionally– There is the symbol on the plaque and, additionally, there is, um, a line on the ca– on the, on the plaque that says “by the New World Airport Commission” aka New World Order, it sounds like.
Christine: Oh. I mean it sounds weird.
Em: It’s– It was a weird choice. Um, and, but it says “donated by the Freemasons” or whatever “and by the New World Airport Commission.” And–
Christine: Okay, that is pretty weird.
Em: Yeah, and–
Christine: So, the actual Freemasons did donate this? Or pay for it or whatever.
Em: The Freemasons– It’s confirmed the don– The Freemasons donated the plaque, yes.
Christine: Oh boy, okay.
Em: Um, and then on the plaque, it says, “by the New World Airport Commission,” which is a group that “doesn’t exist” quote-unquote.
Christine: Yeah, that’s weird.
Em: Yeah, so even though it doesn’t exist, uh, I will say that it existed for a moment. So, a lot of people have conflated the two things with the same plaque, with the time capsule in a creepy airport, Freemasons, New World Order. Boom, that’s easy. I can see why people would get there.
Christine: I see.
Em: But, um, the Freemasons are a legit charity organization that probably helped fund things to get the airport kicked off.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: And the Freemasons have two grand lodges in Colorado, so they are popular there.
Christine: Oh. And you know they love a time capsule, come on.
Em: You know they love a time capsule. And it is confirmed that they donated the plaque.
Christine: They probably invented the whole existence of a time capsule.
Em: I– That makes me mad ‘cause I really, really am hoping that when time travel finds me, I will go back in time far enough to make the first time capsule. I really don’t want the Freemasons to be the ones.
Christine: Oh, so it hasn’t happened yet obviously, ‘cause we haven’t like talked about how– Someday, we’ll do this episode, and we’ll be like, “Well, and Em, obviously, inventor of the time capsule.” [laughs]
Em: Yeah, that’s the hope. So–
Christine: Maybe I should just say it now, and then it’ll just get out of the way, you know, for when you do go back.
Em: I mean, I, I– Now it’s the thing like, did it happen in the past or the future? And did I create it then or now?
Christine: Yeah, it– Now, it’s worse. This is why, this is why I fucking hate time capsules. This is what I’m telling you.
Em: Man.
Christine: My anxiety.
Em: The– Like my last dying wish is to be a time traveler. It’s not that hard like, let’s get it together.
Christine: It’s like, please, god.
Em: So, Freemasons confirmed. As for the New World Airport Commission, it did exist temporarily because it was, uh, the name of the organization that helped with opening events for the airport.
Christine: Oh. [laughs] So, it was thing, okay.
Em: And– It was a thing. And it was established by like s-small local businesses in the area that helped launch the airport or did promotions for the airport. Or they were in charge of coming up with the event, like the time capsule event.
Christine: Right.
Em: They were just doing things to help.
Christine: They were doing Stacey’s future job.
Em: Yes, you got it.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And it was, uh– And so they called themselves the New World Airport Commission, which does still sound very shady, but–
Christine: Yeah, it does.
Em: The reason, the reason why it’s named that is because the founder of this temporary group was in a symphony. He was in the Colorado Springs Symphony. And he named the organization after his favorite song, which happened to be called “New World Symphony.”
Christine: Hm. Is– And that’s a song? We did confirm that’s a song?
Em: It is a song.
Christine: It was once a song. It’s no longer a song. [laughs]
Em: It’s not often played on the radio.
Christine: For one moment, [laughs] yeah, I know. [laughs] I’ve never heard of it. That’s weird.
Em: [laughs] Yeah, so he was like, “Well, I’m a conductor in this symphony. Here’s my favorite song, ‘New World Symphony.’ We’re gonna call it the New World Airport Commission.”
Christine: I see.
Em: Also, that feels–
Christine: I mean, why don’t you call it The New World Symphony? Well, no, that doesn’t make sense. Never mind.
Em: The, the song was already created elsewhere. But, yeah, I guess–
Christine: Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it.
Em: Unless the New World Order is that old they created a symphony after themselves.
Christine: It was new so long ago, [laughs] that, that it’s old. Wow.
Em: See, now we’re, we’re really getting off track, for sure. So, not only was it because the founder of this temporary group liked that song, but it was actually a good fit for an international airport, aka new “world” airport.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Like an international, world. And it, uh– A lot of people said, um, it was also fitting because as an international airport, it also offered to access to the world. So, it was–
Christine: Mm, new world. Yeah, yeah.
Em: It, it was a lot of plays on the word “world.”
Christine: And it’s new and improved and has fucking baggage shredders. It’s like the hot new item.
Em: Yeah, ‘cause– And, well, yeah, you’re right, because before there was an old airport here, and now there’s a new international airport–
Christine: It’s like all state-of-the-art.
Em: –aka New World airport.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, so, that– Even though there’s a lot of good reasons, obviously, theories have still developed about the airport’s true purpose and the name being a hint at that. And, um, here’s a weird one that’s also like ableist. Uh, some have thought that the plaque and the braille next to the plaque, so people with like vision needs can read the fucking plaque–
Christine: What?
Em: They think that it’s a keypad to the time capsule and the tunnels.
Christine: Oh my lord. Okay.
Em: Which like blind people weigh in. Like, is that– Can you– Have you typed around on that thing?
Christine: Yeah, seriously.
Em: And let me know, I guess.
Christine: Like, are you in the backrooms right now ‘cause your fingerprint accessed the– I mean, come on. I have such a headache. It’s like killing me.
Em: I mean, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I love a secret keypad.
Christine: For sure, for sure. Who doesn’t?
Em: But at the second you make it braille, I’m– How do you not feel a little fucking icky about that?
Christine: Right, right.
Em: Oh, god. So, anyway, there’s that fun fact. Now, we’re going to talk about Stacey, and then I swear to god, I’m done. I know I’ve been talking forever.
Christine: No, you’re good. I’m sorry that I’m holding my head like I’m clutching my brain in agony, but–
Em: No, I just feel bad this is so long. But, um, okay. Now, we got Stacey. She is our grand finale. We love Stacey.
Christine: Yeah, we do.
Em: Stacey– her name has– she has two different last names in different sources, so I think she changed her name at some point.
Christine: Love it. She’s like Carmen San Diego.
Em: That’s exactly right. So, we’re just gonna call her Stace. And she’s in charge of the Denver Airport’s marketing. Um, she loves the lore.
Christine: To this day still?
Em: I think so, yeah.
Christine: I thought you said, “She loves the Lord.”
Em: [laughs] Oh, no.
Christine: And I was like, “Em, you really put me in a corner here.” [laughs] Different– thank you for making me say “I love Stacey” three times and then going, “Stacey? The one thing you need to know about her is she loves the Lord.” I’m like, what? [laughs]
Em: [laughs] No, she loves the lore, which is exactly how I– You know, I’m just gonna start kinda slurring my words around Christians and that’s what I’ll say–
Christine: I love the lore, yeah.
Em: But they– I’ll still be– I love the lore!
Christine: I’m very familiar with the lore, thank you.
Em: I throw my hands up for the lore. I love the lore.
[laughs]
Christine: That hurts me.
Em: And, uh. So, anyway, she loves the lore.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And really leans into these campaigns. Like, I– Have you ever met someone who is just so meant for their own fucking job? Because that’s Stacey.
Christine: Oh! No, it’s not you or me.
[laughs]
Em: Okay, she’s responsible, like I said, for Greg the gargoyle.
Christine: Yeah, love that. Huge, huge.
Em: Love her– I mean, immediately promotion.
Christine: Yeah, immediately.
Em: She also teamed up with Roswell’s airport, and they are now officially “supernatural sister airports.”
Christine: Don’t even start. That’s fucking hilarious.
Em: And, and they both posted like a-announcements that they were sister airports, quote–
Christine: This is like thinking outside the box.
Em: –quote “with plans of extraterrestrial combat.” Just like, just in case.
Christine: Oh my gosh. Wow. This is– Wow, they really do lean into it.
Em: Another idea that did not pan out for Stacey because it was too expensive is that, for the airport’s 20th anniversary, she wanted to put crop circles all over the property, so people could see them from the sky.
Christine: Okay, that’s fucking genius.
Em: Stacey needs to–
Christine: We just need a volunteer team of, uh, tractor riders.
Em: Yeah, see? That’s what I’m talking about, yeah.
Christine: You know? Let’s all get–
Em: Call Tractor Bob, Farmer Bob.
Christine: [laughs] Call Tra- Call Farmer Bob, we’ll all get together.
Em: Um, and so, in 2018, there were new renovations, and she decided she was going to do this PR campaign and put posters all over the airport because during these renovations, um, it was going to be like difficult to navigate a lot of the airport. There was just heavy construction around. So you know how they put up those false walls?
Christine: Oh, yes, yes.
Em: She was like, “We’re going to put posters on all those walls just to give people a chuckle. And, um, they– all these posters are going to be like the nefarious creatures people think we store here.“
Christine: Ohh.
Em: “And they’re going to be talking about the rumors of the airport.” So, for example, one of the posters had Blucifer on it with like the– lasers coming out of his red eyes, and, uh, the ad said, “Are we creating the world’s greatest airport? Or preparing for the end of the world?” And then another one had lizard people in construction gear, ‘cause it was on a false wall for construction, and the lizard people said, “Apologies for the noise, it takes really big drills to get to the underworld.”
Christine: Oh my lord. Oh my lord.
Em: There was, there was another one with a gargoyle, maybe Gargoyle Greg, in a, in a TSA scanner, and he’s asking, “Streamlined security? Or more secrets?”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And then there was another one– Literally, this isn’t even a character, we just went with the conspiracy thing here. Uh, one of the posters had a cat in a tinfoil hat. [laughs]
Christine: Aw, that’s cute.
Em: And one of them said, “Forgive the mess. Building secret underground tunnels can get quite untidy.”
Christine: Bless this mess, it’s just, uh, the underworld. Don’t worry about it.
Em: [laughs] Um, and then, uh, there was a hashtag in all these, uh, posters that said–
Christine: Oh, this went huge in 2018.
Em: Oh, yeah. It said #DENFILES, “D”-“E”-“N”-files, instead of X-Files.
Christine: Aw, #DENFILES. That’s cute.
Em: Denver-Files. And then, apparently, some people– This is according to Stacey, some people got really upset about it and thought they were making fun– Not only making fun of the conspiracy theorists, but hiding in plain sight, ‘cause now they’re getting away with it, you know.
Christine: And I love that a thumbs-up emoji just came up on your screen, ‘cause you just agree with that so much.
Em: Or it’s like, “We’re getting away with it! Yay!” [laughs]
Christine: “We’ve done it! Let’s put another swastika on the building, and then no one will know that it was us the whole time!” [laughs]
Em: You get it.
Christine: I get it.
Em: See that, Apple even was like, “I’m not doing that, and I’m not giving you a thumb– “[laughs]
Christine: Apple was like, “Hey, we actually have a failsafe where you say that, and like we shut off all the graphics.”
Em: Honestly, round of applause to Apple. Round of applause. Okay.
Christine: Thank you, thank you. Good job, Apple. Wow. Powerful.
Em: So, some people got very, um, upset, because they thought like they were getting mocked for their like original conspiracy theories. And–
Christine: Wait, really?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And then employees–
Christine: Don’t make fun of lizard people.
Em: I know, please.
Christine: They’re people too.
Em: Um, employees even made, uh made like jokes ‘cause I guess there was like a Westin hotel being built next to the airport. And employees got together with Stacey, and they made alien-shaped skulls to bury in the, in the construction zone in case they ever dig it up and they find aliens.
Christine: Wait, they hid them there?
Em: They hid them there, yeah.
Christine: That’s hysterical.
Em: Uh, I will say – I have to find the picture and send it you – is that, uh, the Denver Airport, they opened recently a Voodoo Doughnuts, which if, if you are–
[dog bark]
Christine: Gio’s very into that.
Em: [laughs] If you’re a fan of Voodoo Doughnuts like I am, that’s a very big deal. And, by the way, I will tell you with conf– with full, full confidence, it is Concourse B where the Voodoo Doughnuts is because I have been there.
Christine: Well, why didn’t you say that before the apples? I don’t care about the apples.
Em: They’re across the way from each other. It’s in the food court on the sixth floor.
Christine: Oh my god, now we’ve got a rivalry going. Well, no, ‘cause you love both, I guess.
Em: Um, what– I love both. I got both last time I was there, um.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But, when it opened, and I don’t know if it’s still there, but when it opened just to lean into the weirdness, they had this large blue alien statue outside of the shop, which I have a picture of. I remember thinking, “What’s this little alien doing here?”
Christine: Oh! So you’ve already started this wh– the lore that we’re creating about this doughnut and chocolate shop.
Em: See? Exactly. And Stacey has also hosted, um, events now called Conspiracy Month where every week there is a new conspiracy-themed event at the airport. One of them was, uh, the “Conspiracy Theories Uncovered Art Exhibit.” Then, there was, um– they offered art installation tours of all the murals that had conspiracy ties to it.
Christine: Wow.
Em: Then, they had a conspiracy costume party. And then, they had a costume– or, sorry, they had a contest where the winner was gonna get a behind-the-scenes tour of the underground tunnels.
Christine: What?
Em: I fucking love Stacey.
Christine: And, and they’ve never seen that guy again.
Em: [laughs] And he went away forever, yes.
Christine: He’s [unintelligible] he just disappeared. It has nothing to do with the airport, but.
Em: Oh, and that is the Denver Airport, Christine.
Christine: That was really good, and it’s not your fault it was long. It took us 40 minutes to even start the episode, so, um, that’s not on you.
Em: Hang on. We got barking.
glass clinks - start of ad break]
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Em: Welcome back from our, uh– By the way, everybody, we just ha– came from a break where, um, we both did a lot of chatter, and, uh, hopefully, hopefully, there’s–
Christine: I gave Em like the backstory of my whole friend, like family friend’s life, for some reason.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: I just– I don’t know.
Em: We– The chaos is, uh, is, is still here, so hopefully, hopefully it keeps up, although Christine does have a habit of bumming the crowd out, so um let’s, let’s see if the chaos can, uh, can reign over it.
Christine: Yeah, after watching CNN for an hour and then like starting my notes, it’s really, um, dark days over here, but–
Em: It sounds like I’m the best part of your day, Christine.
Christine: I mean, when are you not, you know what I’m saying.
Em: [sighs]
Christine: Alright, this is the story of Robert Bob Samuels and the Green Widow. And I wish it were like a fun comic book, but it’s’not.
Em: Oh. I was gonna say, “Ooh!” But, I guess not. Like Green Widow like, like the Black Widow who kills her husbands. But green.
Christine: Maybe.
Em: What makes her green, I wonder. Is she a vegetarian?
Christine: [laughs] Nope.
Em: She a vegan girl? Hm, we’ll find out.
Christine: She loves the dollar bills.
Em: Oh! Okay, so, okay.
Christine: I mean, what vengeful wife who is doing it for the life insurance doesn’t love the bills, so I feel like, you know, green wi– It’s like–
Em: Yeah. The Green Widow, she sounds more honest than the Black Widow.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, you know what? It’s probably a truer statement. That’s right.
Em: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Christine: Um, anyway. So, on that note, uh, here we go. By the way, there’s a photo that goes along with the Green Widow term, but you’ll get that later.
Em: Excellent.
Christine: So, let’s tell a story. Bob Samuels was born in 1948. Uh, he grew up in California’s San Fernando Valley. And friends say he was a kind and gentle soul. He was very shy, very introverted. And guess what? He had a crush on the girl next door.
Em: Aw.
Christine: Her name was Mary Ellen Gurnick, and she lived down the street. And she was a little bit older than him, so he was super intimidated by her. And she was like really pretty and popular, and he had just the biggest crush on her. But unlike Bob, Mary Ellen was very outgoing. She liked to, uh, spend her time out and about. She went to dances. She, uh– Like boys always gravitated toward her, so he was like, “I’m not even– I don’t stand a chance.”
Em: Yeah. “I’m not in her wheelhouse.”
Christine: Exactly. So, her friends even described her that way like, “Ah, she always got all the boys when we went out,” and stuff like that. Um, and so, he kind of had a crush on her for years but never really asked her out. Um, instead, he hung out with his own friends, uh, one of whom was called Judy McCoy. And she and Bob met when she was 11, and he had befriended her older brother. And over time, the family just took Bob in almost as their own. He basically considered this family, um, the McCoys, like a second family of his.
And, Judy herself also thought of Bob as just a genuinely kind, sincere person. Um, when they grew up, they said he was always happy to help neighbors. He was just always, you know, if somebody needed financial help, he would loan money. He’s ju– He was just like that guy that people just felt safe around.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Um, and he actually became a camera operator for Hollywood studios, fun fact.
Em: Fun!
Christine: I know. And he worked on 1980’s hits.
Em: [gasps]
Christine: And he got pretty successful. Like he did quite a few big productions. Um, he did the–
Em: What’d he do?
Christine: – whole Lethal Weap– He worked the Lethal Weapon franchise.
Em: Mm!
Christine: Um, and some other big names, and it’s so funny– Let me pull up– I’ve been meaning to pull this up like all day, and I keep forgetting. Uh, the– So, I just watched Brittney Vaughn, who is a YouTuber that I’m only now discovering, but–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: She covered this story [laughs]. She was– She’s like clearly younger than us, and she was saying like all these 80 thing– ‘80s movies, and then she’s like, “I just said those ‘cause they sounded like what you would want to hear–”
Em: [gasps] You know what? Speaking of honest.
Christine: [laughs] “–on the list.” And I was like, “Girl, yeah, that–“ And I– Because I was also like I feel like I– and it’s not because I’m young, it’s ‘cause I just never watch the classic movies, but, um–
Em: She could have said it in a way that hurts my feelings less, but, it, it’s fine.
Christine: I know. It was, it was re– it was very funny. I was like, wow. Wow, yeah.
Em: It’s like, you’re right. My dad did love that movie, thank you.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Tell it like it is. Um, so, you know, he had, uh, a reputation as just being very re– uh, respectful, kind, um, generous, and just a hard worker in, uh, in general. And, in 1979, he goes to his high school reunion, and who does he see but little Mary Ellen.
Em: Mm.
Christine: And, guess what? She’s divorced.
Em: [gasps] Hello!
Christine: Hello!
Em: Also like now he gets to do his whole little Hollywood spiel of like “Am I in your wheelhouse now, girl? Heeey.”
Christine: You hit on the head. 100%. That’s like the dream we all have, right? Like going back and being like, “Oh? Who me? Yeah.” [laughs]
Em: If you had to– Let’s say you’re, you’re not with Blaise, you’re divorced, you’re going to like a singles mingle kinda thing–
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: What’s your one little flex you’re gonna try to throw out and see if it gains interest?
[dogs barking]
Christine: Oh my god, uh-oh. Does the dog hear– I think they hear–
Em: Did they both just start barking at the same time?
Christine: They must hear each other like, right? With their dog ears?
Em: I don’t know.
Christine: Wait, I’d never thought about this, that we could create the world’s worst echo chamber like podcast dogs. Like, it would just never stop, right?
Em: Now, now that–
Christine: What do other people do?
Em: [laughs] I don’t know.
Christine: Do people not have dogs? And now, now, I’m like spiraling. What the fuck?
Em: [laughs] Are you high? Did you just take a vape?
Christine: I need to like take a breath. No, I– No, honestly, I fucking wish, but no. I took an aspirin. Maybe I’m having, maybe I’m having an allergic reaction. Okay, uh, buh-buh-buh, sorry. So, he goes to the high school reunion, right? And–
Em: Oh, sorry, wait, your flex. You gotta tell me your one flex if you’re–
Christine: Oh, sorry! Yeah, what? Sorry, so this is to like pitch myself?
Em: Yeah, like if someone–Like if you’re actually trying to woo someone, and they’re like, “What’s an interesting fact about you?”
Christine: Ohh. Hmm. Ooh!
Em: “And if you give me an interesting enough one, I’ll give you a little kissie.”
Christine: Oh my god. Oh gosh, the pressure, okay. Um–
Em: To be fair, I don’t know what my answer is. I’m totally putting you on the spot.
Christine: Oh, no, that’s okay. Well, that’s more fun, ‘cause then we can both be on the spot. Um, I think like, uh, the time that Alexis dropped Kris, Kris Jenner’s sa– uh, omelet, and I had to go like explain it to her and ask for the new order of it.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: The New Order! Oh my god, Christine! Is she in the I– what’s happening?
Em: Oh, it all makes sense! [singing] Na-na-na-na, na-na-na-na, na-na-na. [laughs]
Christine: The DEN-Files. Now on HBO. [laughs] The Linda– Linda’s feather. Okay.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Sorry, I can’t, I– I can’t stop myself. I think there was something in that aspirin. Um.
Em: [laughs] It was, it was actually– What is it? That, that Australian Antigen or whatever.
Christine: [laughs] Oh my god. It was Au Ag. Stupid. Okay, anyway. I think I would say like, oh, that time I had to fix Kris Jenner a new omelet because Alexis dropped hers, and I– and she was just so kind about it.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And I was like– It was just one of those moments where you’re like, “Wow, I didn’t expect that you’d be like the nicest celebrity I’ve ever interacted with of all people.” Um, I’m sure– So a lot of it is just– She’s a smart marketing person. But, uh–
Em: But it worked.
Christine: It worked. And I don’t know, that was pretty–
Em: And we’re here now telling the masses that Kris Jenner’s nice, so–
Christine: Right! That’s right. Exactly, she was, she was very kind to two PAs who really fucked up, so. I don’t know. What would, what would yours be though? ‘Cause I, I, I’m sure I’ll come up with a better one later, like a more interesting one, but.
Em: Um. In moments like this– ‘Cause I, I have a hard time saying nice things about myself, I do– I know it’s hard to believe, but, um–
Christine: [laughs] Wow.
Em: [laughs] But when I, when I, when like– I have no problem talking about myself, but then if it comes like actually like “what’s something you’re proud of?” I always black out.
Christine: Right. Like, step up and say it out loud. No, yeah, that’s– I mean, my thing was that– is that I fucked something up. Like it wasn’t a good thing about me.
Em: Right.
Christine: It was that Kris Jenner was nice, not anything good happened because of me.
Em: I learned from a, from a while ago from a friend that if you can’t come th– come up with a way to like be proud of yourself, the way you should start a sentence is “my friends would want me to tell you.”
Christine: Ohhh. That’s clever. That’s really clever.
Em: So, my friends would want me to tell someone, um, probably about the Stranger Things E-Eggo waffle box I made.
Christine: That’s good. I would tell them about the carrot thing, so it depends on the audience.
Em: What is the carrot thing?
Christine: The Cheeto, the carrot Cheetos. Uh, ‘cause that–
Em: Oh! See, yeah, so props in general.
Christine: Yeah, props. Um, props!
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Uh, the other thing I was going to say… Oh! If I w– If I started it with “my friends would want you to know,” it would be not good, ‘cause it would be like, “Oh, she found Patrick Stump’s home phone number one time, but he was on tour, so it forwarded to his aunt.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: “And then, she like hung up, ‘cause she was too scared, and then her phone had been blocked.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So, I feel like no matter what I start the sentence with, it’s like something bad that happened.
Em: Like, as your friend, if you need a filler, just say, “My friend who–“
Christine: “–did that?”
Em: “–confirmed this would want you to know–“
Christine: Oh. [laughs]
Em: “–that I’m a fucking psycho.”
[laughs]
Christine: Okay, Em just sent me a TikTok the other day of a girl like laying in her ex’s yard with a blanket on, pretending to be snow, and then she would like throw a snowball at his window and hide. And he would come to the window, and she’d like propped up a fucking phone to film it, and I was like– Em goes, “I need– I know you would do this.” And I, I didn’t watch it for like a day, ‘cause I was like I'm gonna be, “Fuck you.”
[laughs]
Christine: But, it is very accurate. But, I– Like I said, I wouldn’t do it to my ex, I would do it to someone like so random and insignificant like a teach–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Like somebody like really inappropriate but like just–
Em: Like your postman.
Christine: ‘Cause I– Yeah, like right! ‘Cause I’m like fixated for some reason that’s not like even romance, it’s just like unhinged behavior. Anyway.
Em: [laughs] Do you see how red my face is?
[laughs]
Em: [sighs]
Christine: Oh my gosh. Okay, I’m so sorry. I, yeah. Yep. Anyway.
Em: Sorry. He’s– So, he’s about to do the whole “my friends would want me to tell you” to Miss Mary Ellen or whatever her name is.
Christine: I worked for the Lethal f– yeah, the Lethal fran– the Lethal Weapon–
Em: Weapon.
Christine: –Franchise. Uh, and that probably really got her, ‘cause within six months, they were married.
Em: Damn. He knew exactly what to say.
Christine: Yeah! So, he was not shy anymore. Um, they got married. They moved into a house in an LA suburb. And he was just like totally smitten. I mean, it was like, oh, my life-long love, you know. My crush is now back in my life. It’s just this huge love story. Um, and, so Mary–
Em: Which is so lovely, by the way, because if I had to marry my high school sweetheart or the person I was crushing on, I would not have that same reaction.
Christine: Imagine. I was even today thinking like, “Oh, thank god, I didn’t– That didn’t work out,” you know.
Em: Yeah, if I went to a, a school reunion, and I saw the person I was in love with, I would– We would maybe–
Christine: Do you know what you’d say? You’d say, “oh, guess what? One time. I got Patrick Stump’s phone number, and I–“ You’d like lie and make yourself sound like a psycho.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: You’re like, ‘I know what drives people away. The things Christine does.”
Em: [laughs] Exactly. Sorry, carry on. I keep interrupting you. Sorry.
Christine: [laughs] No, no. Um, so, anyway. So, he, he tells her like all the right things, makes his move, and he’s just smitten with her. They move into a house in an LA suburb. Now, Mary Ellen, like I said, is divorced, and she actually has a daughter named Nicole. And he was like thrilled to have a stepdaughter now. He actually ended up legally adopting her and became her father. And it just was like his greatest joy. He loved being a dad. And Bob’s professional and personal life were both going swimmingly for a few years. But then, he and Mary Ellen started to clash over finances because, remember, she liked the money.
Em: Mm-hmm. Miss Greenie.
Christine: Miss Greenie. And so, people close to them said Mary Ellen wanted this like lavish lifestyle that he could not afford. I mean, he’s successful, but he’s not life, you know, running the L-Lethal Weapon franchise money. He’s just a successful dude, average successful dude.
Em: Right.
Christine: And she loved spending money. It was like her favorite pastime. [laughs] I mean, relatable.
Em: Been there. [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] Yeah. I remember that time I bought something to look in the wall of my house for no reason and then had to like have a talk to my– talk to Jesus– what is it? Come to Jesus moment with myself.
Em: I truly don’t– I’ve like had to– I actively have to tell myself not to go on Etsy.com.
Christine: It’s bad. Oh.
Em: Because something will get purchased.
Christine: I have to delete all these apps. It’s’ terrible. Anyway. So, now with this Apple Pay you were telling me all about, it’s like– [sighs] Oh, jeez.
Em: I’m telling y– All I need is my face to pay.
Christine: It’s just like, “oh no.” Yeah. That’s really dangerous stuff. Okay. So, Bob was like, “Let me give her a new hobby. How about I will buy a Subway sandwich franchise.” And so, he buys a Subway sandwich franchise, and he’s like, “Here you go.” And like, kind of lets her run it as like, “Here, you can do this now as a hobby or something.” I don’t know.
Em: Great hobby.
Christine: Yeah, I guess. And so she like took it over and want, wanted to like run it and make some money for herself, you know, and like be– So that was kinda the idea. And so she managed the place. Um, and they did obviously have some extra income from this, and so that bolstered their finances a bit. But, six years into their marriage, Bob got home to like what this YouTuber I was talking about, or somebody– oh, no, no, no. It was not the YouTuber. She’s too young for a reference like this. A Dear John letter, uh, on the, on the counter.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Um, basically, Mary Ellen told Bob like, “I’m, I’m outta here. Goodbye forever.” And he was like totally–
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: –like devastated.
Em: Can you imagine– I mean, can you imagine having your– the girl of your dreams in high school, thinking you can never get her. Then you finally do, and then she goes, “N– I don’t like this.”
Christine: Oh, and you adopt her daughter, and you try to make it work. And, and it was.
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: It was devastating. And so, he literally tried everything, you know. He was determined to make it work. He agreed to a trial separation. Mary Ellen moved into a nearby condo with Nicole. They moved out. Um, and Bob paid for the condo. He paid for their living expenses. Like he just wanted her back so badly. Um, and she just kept managing the sandwich shop. And they reportedly remained on friendly terms to co-parent Nicole. But, two years later, this would be two years into their separation.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: 1988, Mary Ellen and Nicole stop by Bob’s house to drop off the dog before a trip that they’re taking. And they stop by the house, um, to drop the dog off, and when they got there, Bob didn’t answer the door. So, they bang on it for a while, and then eventually, they let themselves in. And Bob was laying on the floor, dead, at only 40-years-old.
Em: Oh. Oof.
Christine: And at this point, Nicole is 18. Uh, she is– One of them calls 911, obviously, and Mary Ellen and 18-year-old Nicole are both just like seemingly in total shock by this. Um, they tell detectives they don’t think Bob has any enemies. Um, they can’t imagine who would want to hurt him. And Mary Ellen immediately agrees to a polygraph test and passes it. Her financial disagreements– She kept saying like that, that wasn’t even extreme for, for what– Like, people were saying, you know, “Maybe it was a finances–“ But it just didn’t seem extreme enough. There wasn’t enough evidence.
Em: Right.
Christine: And so, they quickly ruled, uh, her and Nicole out as suspects and kinda didn’t have many leads, so they started looking into basically every corner of Bob’s life. They spoke to friends, family, co-workers–
Em: The cast of Lethal Weapon.
Christine: [laughs] The cast of Lethal We–. Oh, man. You know they had some stories to tell.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: They questioned all of the employees at the Subway sandwich shop, um, hoping for a tip. They spoke to people in film who worked with him. And it turned out that the IRS had actually charged some of Bob’s industry colleagues for crimes involving tax evasion, and Bob had agreed to testify against them at trial on behalf of the IRS. And so a lot of people were pretty pissed at him. But, at the same time, when they talked to those folks, they were like, “Well, yeah, we’re pissed at him ’cause he’s kind of a jerk for doing that but not like pissed enough to kill the guy.” You know.
Em: [laughs] Right, right.
Christine: Um, and so, the detectives were like, well, you know, it could be– this is a clearly a personal like thing. Maybe, maybe it was, uh– maybe it was–
Em: The wife?
Christine: Well, maybe it was somebody who was just pissed off that he was gonna testify against him. Maybe it got out of hand. And, the murder itself was very personal. He had been home alone, walking through the house in his underwear of all things, which is like– I mean, talk about– It’s like getting caught with your pants down. You know that saying? It’s like–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I mean, Jesus Christ. This guy is–
Em: Like, actually.
Christine: Like, actually. He’s like walking around in his underwear, and somebody just attacked him by basically hitting him over the head with a so– a tubular– like a metal tubular object, and they said mostly likely the barrel of a shotgun.
Em: Huh. Oh, okay. Hitting someone with a gun is not the way I think would do you in if a gun was part of the weapon.
Christine: And then putting a pillow over his face and shooting him multiple times through the pillow.
Em: [gasps] Oh.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So, it was basically to debilitate him, you know.
Em: Sure. Got it.
Christine: And, and then finish the job. Um, and, I mean, at first, things were like a bit in disarray, so they thought maybe this is a burglary. But there was a dr– Like one of the drawers was just there with $6,000 of cash in it, and nobody had touched it. And it was like, it was like, “Mmm?” It doesn’t–
Em: Right, so it’s definitely not a financial thing, or it seems that way.
Christine: It doesn’t– it doesn’t feel like a robbery, ’cause they would have like found that most likely looking through drawers and stuff. Um, and so, just a little odd. There was also a glass sliding door that was six inches ajar, um, where the killer probably entered. And, uh, you know, after they knocked him to the ground, they used the pillow as sort of a makeshift silencer, um, shot him at close range.
Em: Mm.
Christine: And there was no forensic evidence they could find. The only identif– identifiable fingerprints belonged to people whose fingerprints expected to– were expected to be there: Bob, Mary Ellen, um, Nicole. Other fingerprints– Some of them were partial and unusable, and they were like, we don’t even know if this was just a house guest or like the killer.
Em: Right, right.
Christine: So, the detectives’ only hope was to try and like make a connection, uh, in Bob’s life that would reveal some sort of motive.
Em: And, and by the way, how old is Nicole in this?
Christine: She’s 18.
Em: And she, she would’ve just walked in on this? With her, her dad like that?
Christine: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em: Oh, wow. Okay.
Christine: So, the tax situation– They were like– The police, the detectives were like, “Okay. This seems like a break, like a good break in the case.” But in the end, it just kind of was a run-around, uh, like a red herring. One of them had even left the country and like wasn’t even in the picture when Bob vanished– or, sorry, when Bob was killed, they weren’t even around. Um, then Bob’s friends reported another lead. Bob was actually dating a woman who was married.
Em: Ooh, that’ll do it.
Christine: Yeah. Yep. Turns out Bob and Mary Ellen had recently like officially decided to call their relationship off, um, amidst their separation. And they had become pretty estranged over the past two years, and Bob was pretty lonely. And his childhood friend, Judy, that I had mentioned earlier whose family like had became– had become a second family to him, she introduced him to a friend who was in a similar situation and was also separated from her estranged husband. So, it was sort of like, “Oh, you should meet my other divorcée friend,” you know.
Em: Great, okay.
Christine: And– Yeah, and so they started dating, and they just, you know– They needed companionship, and they got along really well. And so the two of them started dating, but she was not on good terms with her husband who was reportedly pretty controlling and abusive. And, um, Judy, his friend, said that this friend that she introduced him to used to have her husband for permission to like meet up with Judy for coffee–
Em: Ooh.
Christine: Like, just very, hugely red flag abusive behavior.
Em: Whoo…
Christine: And so, basically breaking free of her husband and then dating and sleeping with Bob and going to his house looked like a pretty strong motive for like an abuser who’s controlling, you know.
Em: Totally.
Christine: And so, investigators start looking into his background and discover he’s a former police officer with domestic violence complaints who owns at least one gun. And they’re like, “Well, this seems like a good direction.”
Em: [scoffs] Not looking good! [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, not looking good for him anyway. Um, he worked as a security guard at a nightclub, and investigators went and spoke to his boss. And basically, based on Bob’s estimated time of death, the suspect was definitely at work while Bob was killed. So there’s just no way that this could’ve been him.
Em: Okay.
Christine: That was another dead end, and they really didn’t have much to go on. Um, they were like kind of at a loss, and months just passed. I think it was like five months passed, and the case started to cool. Mary Ellen and Nicole tried to get back to their normal lives. Um, they moved back into Bob’s house which is like where they had lived before this condo. Um, and Mary Ellen put the sandwich shop up for sale and, uh, you know, got the life insurance money as a payout to support her and Nicole. Now, Bob’s case might have been doomed to a filing cabinet, but a call came into the homicide division from a man who said, “I know everything.”
Em: [gasps]
Christine: [singing] Dun-dun-dun!
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: He says, “In fact, I know the person who killed him.”
Em: Can I guess? Can I guess?
Christine: Sure, yeah. B- yeah.
Em: Was– Like, the guy– Who the guy is.
Christine: Oh, sure, sure, sure.
Em: Who, who this Deep Throat fella is.
Christine: [laughs] That’s what they call him.
Em: [laughs] Is he from Subway?
Christine: Is he from Subway? Um…
Em: Where she worked? Didn’t she have like the franchise?
Christine: She is not– he is not from Subway.
Em: Damn. I thought like maybe he had overheard her at work or something.
Christine: It’s– Ooh, it’s a good guess though. It is a very good guess. But they did interview all the employees and stuff there, and nobody had any motive, so that was kind of a dead end. But, uh, basically, this guy calls and says, “I know who– I know who killed him.” And they say, “Okay. Ah, can you let me know?” And he said, “You gotta find this guy named Jim Bernstein.” So, they look into this guy, Jim Bernstein. Background research found that Jim had been charged on several drug-related offenses. He was out of prison, so that was like a sign that this could be the right guy. And, he had been dating a certain Nicole who just so happened to be the daughter of a certain murder victim. So, what a weird connection. [laughs]
Em: Mmm.
Christine: And, turns out, this was one of Nicole’s– A guy she had been seeing, Jim Bernstein, a guy with quite a rap sheet. And so, when detectives went to Mary Ellen and Nicole’s house, uh, they didn’t tell Nicole that Jim was a suspect.
Em: Gotcha.
Christine: They were like, “Oh, just, do you know this guy? Like have you heard of him?” And she’s like, “Oh, we just like casual friends, you know.” So they bring Jim and Mary Ellen in for questioning together, trying to get a picture of the connection between Jim and the family, the Samuels family, and a confession out of Jim.
Em: Sure.
Christine: But, Mary Ellen didn’t really say much. Um, Jim was adamant he had nothing to do with this whole situation. And again, this was a tip, but it was an anonymous tip, and it was just hearsay at the end of the day. Like it– They couldn’t really do anything.
Em: Right.
Christine: Um, so they had to let Jim go. Mary Ellen went home.
Em: Did they fingerprint him or anything?
Christine: Suddenly– Well, he’d already been in prison, so. There’s– Yeah.
Em: Oh. Oh, oh, oh. Okay.
Christine: Then, Jim disappeared.
Em: Oh! He was a flight risk, you say?
Christine: Hmm, isn’t that weird? So, investigators–
Em: Interesante.
Christine: Investigators spoke to his boss who said Jim hadn’t been at work in days. His boss also said that Jim used to talk about Bob, the murder victim, at work.
Em: Uh-oh, Jimmy!
Christine: Jimmy… Jim apparently despised Bob, and this was like an open secret to basically everybody. Like he couldn’t, he couldn’t stop talking about it. He apparently hated Bob so much, because he had heard that Bob abused his girlfriend, Nicole, had sexually abused his girlfriend, Nicole, throughout her childhood.
Em: Oh, shit.
Christine: And, so, he had this like vendetta against Bob. And Jim’s boss said that Jim believed Bob deserved to be punished for what he had done to Nicole, but after supposedly killing Bob, Jim had lost his resolve. He was scared and remorseful. And the last time, Jim and his boss spoke, Jim said he was going to go to the police and tell them everything.
Em: [sighs] Jimothy.
Christine: So, if Jim had killed Bob in an attempt to protect and avenge a woman he cared about, it did line up with like how personal the attack was.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And there were no police reports backing up this story of sexual abuse, and it wasn’t mentioned in the divorce filings which seemed odd. Um, and it wasn’t mentioned in any of the interrogations with Mary Ellen– not interrogations, like conversations.
Em: And Nicole’s not saying anything about it.
Christine: Yeah, with, with Nicole and Mary Ellen, nobody said anything. But, of course, like sexual abuse often goes unreported, like not that surprising of a thing. So, they, you know, wanted to ask Nicole directly, but, hm, that’s too bad. She’s in Cancún with her mom, and, uh, that’s convenient.
Em: Why? What’re they– wh– How do you vacation after this?
Christine: They’re just not– They’re just on a vacation in Cancún, and the weirdest thing happens which is that, suddenly, during this trip and after Jim’s disappearance when he said to his boss, “I’m going to tell the police everything,” Jim winds up dead.
Em: Ohh!
Christine: So, it’s June of 1989. Uh, someone discovers his remains on a trail. And he had been exposed to the elements and only identifiable by his fingerprints, so they did take his fingerprints at some point. And now they knew that he had been strangled to death on this trail and been left there.
Em: Shit.
Christine: So, he had not been a f– Well, he was probably a flight risk, but he had not fled. He had actually been killed.
Em: Gotcha.
Christine: And so, J-Jim’s brother who was like really worried about his brother–
Em: Brother.
Christine: –all the time because he was work– he knew he was working in these shady businesses, um, was always so afraid that he would be killed, and he– Now that the– this, this had actually happened, his worst nightmare, he basically said, “Go talk to Dave. That’s Jim’s like buddy.”
Em: Yeah.
Christine: “If you wanna know what happened to Jim, you gotta go talk to Dave.”
Em: So– oh, yeah.
Christine: Turns out Dave was the anonymous caller, the tipster.
Em: Interesting. So, wait. So, hang on now.
Christine: I know. It’s so complicated.
Em: So, Dave reported his brother for potential murder?
Christine: No. Da– sorry. Jim’s brother said, “Go talk to Dave. That’s who you wanna talk to.” Jim and, uh– Jim and Dave were BFFs. Jim’s brother–
Em: Right.
Christine: Sorry. Jim’s killed and then his brother is like, uh, “His closest buddy is this guy, Dave. Go talk to Dave.”
Em: Oh! Oh, okay. I’m piecing it together. Okay, sorry. I combined two people.
Christine: No, no. It’s fine. It’s very confusing. And then the police went to Dave and turns out, Dave was like, “Yeah, I’m the one who called you about Jim.”
Em: Yes, okay. I combined the brother and Dave, the, the brother and the friend.
Christine: Yes.
Em: So, his, the friend was turning his– the friend, Dave, was turning–
Christine: Jim in.
Em: –his friend, Jim, in.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Interesting.
Christine: Yeah, yep. Yep, yep, yep. Um, he said, “Yep. I’m the caller, the anonymous caller who reported Jim in the first place.” And so, according to him, Jim did not murder Bob for vigilante justice. He said Jim was hired to kill Bob by Mary Ellen, so he was a hit man.
Em: Hmm.
Christine: He said that Mary Ellen had actually hired Jim because she wanted ownership of the sandwich shop and Bob’s $500,000 life insurance policy.
Em: Hm.
Christine: So when Mary Ellen and Nicole return from Mexico and are like, “What’s going on, guys?” And they’re like, hmm things are getting a little fishy around here. They both clam up and refuse to speak to police. So they–
Em: And– [sighs] Sorry, I keep interrupting you for clarification.
Christine: No, no. Please go ahead.
Em: Um, so, are we now under– at an understanding that Jim was never dating Nicole and the whole story about Nicole was a– was a cover-up for Jim, so he didn’t have to say he was a hitman.
Christine: Jim and Nicole were dating.
Em: They were dating. He also happened to be a hitman.
Christine: Correct.
Em: Okay, got it.
Christine: Correct. Um, and so, they arrested Mary Ellen. And, because, they believed this story that she had hired him and, and had known him like through Nicole as the– as her boyfriend, basically as Nicole’s boyfriend.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So, most of the evidence against her was witness testimony, and they didn’t really have much physical evidence, so this was gonna be kind of an uphill battle. Um, so Jim had made phone calls to Mary Ellen’s house the night Bob was killed, but that could have been like, oh, he was in a relationship with Nicole. Maybe he just called to talk to her. So, all the evidence they had was a little bit flimsy. Um, Mary Ellen also made multiple payments to Jim from the sandwich shop account, but she claimed he had been working there part-time. So, you sort of were onto it.
Em: Oh! Look at me go.
Christine: Except he– I don’t think he ever actually did work there. She just said, “Oh, he would just take up a shift every now and then. That's why I was paying him out of the Subway account.”
Em: Gotcha.
Christine: Um, and it’s also plausible like, “Oh, he’s dating my daughter,” like they could write this off. Her attorneys could–
Em: There’s a lot of ways he can weave in and out.Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, spin this. Yeah. Exactly. And so, detectives also discovered a $6,000 payment to a woman named Anne Hambly. And this is Mary Ellen’s friend who also appeared in Jim’s phone call records the days before he was cleared, which is also very odd.
Em: Hmm.
Christine: Anne met with the police at her lawyer’s office, which I love. [laughs]
Em: Of course. She was like, “Before anything happens…”
Christine: She’s like, “You come to me.”[laughs]
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And she secured complete immunity which– Wow. She’s just like, I’m not–
Em: Wow. Go Anne Hambly, damn.
Christine: I know. She’s like, “I’m not fucking around here.” She secured complete immunity in exchange for her testimony on Bob’s and Jim’s deaths. So she absolutely turned on her friend immediately.
Em: I like how this whole story is just “don’t trust your fucking friends ’cause they are gonna turn you in.”
Christine: Literally, lit– honestly, I mean, you say a word and like things are gonna go south. Like you just can’t–
Em: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: You just can’t say a thing. You’re gonna get screwed.
Em: If you ever do anything shady and I end up getting an appointment in a lawyer’s office, look out, girl.
Christine: Yeah, I’m in trouble. I know that already. So, Anne was in debt with– to Mary Ellen, but Mary Ellen said she would forgive her debt, like her financial debt to her if you could help me find someone to kill Jim Bernstein basically, is what she told Anne.
Em: Bold sentence. As close as we are, I’d still be nervous to say that sentence to you.
Christine: I would still not trust a single person to say that out loud and be like, “Just kidding.”
Em: There are inside thoughts. Inside thoughts.
Christine: There are inside thoughts. That’s exactly right.
Em: No matter how close you are to somebody, there’s always at least one inside thought.
Christine: And we're podcasters, okay? So we don’t really know much about inside thoughts, but like that? Come on.
Em: Our life is a yap-a-thon–
Christine: [laughs]
Em: –but there are still some things you don’t just fucking say.
Christine: I know, right? And that is exactly right because she is like, “Well, am I gonna be safe?” They’re like, “Yeah.” She’s like, “Fine, I’ll spill everything. So basically, she called me and wanted someone to kill the hitman who murdered her husband.” And it’s like, wow, okay.
Em: And what were Anne Hambly’s credentials to do that, by the way? How was she supposed to find a murderer and just–?
Christine: I’ll tell you. Literally.
Em: Oooh.
Christine: She started seeking out potential hitman, hitmen wherever she could. She would go out with her friends and be like, “Does anyone know a hitman?” [laughs]
Em: Ann Hambly. For a second, I thought she really had strategy as a, as a strength.
Christine: She’s so savvy. [laughs] But not, you know? It’s like she’s so savvy, and then you’re like, girl, what? Hold on.
Em: And then also, like are any of your friends going to honestly say yes if they know one?
Christine: And again, you’re yappin’.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: You’re yappin’ more and more to more people. What are you doing? Like, of course, someone’s gonna say, “Talk to Anne Hambly, she’s asking me about hitmen for no reason.”
Em: Yeah. Verbal trail.
Christine: I mean, just stupid. Stupid. So, she went out with friends and was like, “Hey, do you know anyone?” And, apparently, Anne, which the, uh, the v– Brittney, who watched on Youtube was so funny about this. Anne’s boyfriend was named Paul Gaul. [laughs]
Em: That’s funny.
Christine: And it’s like– She’s like, “Why would his parents do that?” Paul Gaul. Um, he recommended somebody as a hitman. He was like, “I know a person.”Uh, he recommends this guy, Darrell Edwards. So, Paul is like, “I’ll help.” Paul Gaul. Paul’s like, “Hey, Anne. I know you have this debt, so I’ll help. I’ll help kill this hitman with my hitman.” It’s just like so crazy.
Em: Honestly, Paul sounds like a real fucking friend so far. He’s like, “I’m in it with you. Here’s a hitman.” [laughs]
Christine: Yeah. He’s like, “Oh, I’m your boyfriend, so I guess I need to do this service for you. I’ll find you a hitman.”
Em: A real homie.
Christine: Yeah. So, she–He finds this hitman, and he goes with the hitman to lure the other hitman, Jim– to lure him out on a “drug run.” Like, they’re basically like, “Hey, Jim. Can you come with us? Like we’re going on this like drug run. We need some backup, whatever.” And apparently, he was like, “I don’t really feel it like it.” And they were like, “Well, you have to come. Like, ’cause that’s where we’re gonna murder you. Come on!” [laughs]
Em: Awkward. Awkward.
Christine: And so– yeah, awkward ’cause they talk him into it. And he’s basically in the passenger seat. They drive down this remote trail, and they fuckin’ strangle him from behind the car seat like just reach over and start strangling him. But, he fuckin’ gets out. So, he literally apparently starts screaming so loud that the driver, whoever– I don’t know if it was Paul or Darrell. One of them punched him, but by punching him, they punched the guy who was strangling him by mistake.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So, Jim got out of the car. He managed to escape. And he was like running, and they ended up killing him out on the trail. And that’s how they like ended up with his– and killing his– killing him.
Em: Ugh.
Christine: And then they went and just dumped him on the side of– like off a– on the side of a road. They, they threw his belongings over the edge of like a ravine, um, and just left him there. Imagine being like to your girlfriend being like, “Oh, I’ll take care of it.”
Em: Also, imagine like someone hearing us talk about this at lunch. Like, this is [laughs] I just heard–
Christine: Oh, yeah!
Em: I just heard, I just heard it in a moment where I was like, if I heard s– I would ha– I would halt whatever conversation I was having if I overheard this. “Oh, and then they killed them at the ravine.” I mean, th– every– I really gotta say, Christine. This story wi– It’s not even finished. It’s one of my favorites. This is such a gossipy tale. It just–
Christine: Ohh. You’re so right because it’s like, “What? Were they dating? Yeah, they actually were. But the– were they hitmen? Yes, also that.”
Em: There’s such a network of people who kinda half do shady stuff?
Christine: Why is everyone’s boyfriend a hitman all of a sudden?
Em: Yeah. How did– how– I’ve never heard a story where there were two hitmen involved. Like–
Christine: [laughs] Like killing other hitmen, yeah. It’s just like– Bizarro.
Em: Like how do you find two hitmen?
Christine: Well, you go out to lunch, and you ask around.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And then your boyfriend ends up being the one to know a hitman and is also a hitman apparently. Uh, it’s just like, what in the world?
Em: Oh, god.
Christine: It’s just so crazy. Like it just seems absolutely convoluted.
Em: Bonkers.
Christine: Like so convoluted. So, anyway, both men accept second-degree murder convictions and 15 years-to-life to testify against Mary Ellen. So everyone is just like fuckin’ abandoning Mary Ellen now because she’s like pushed her luck, I think, a little too far.
Em: Well, they’re also like, “So, I’m being interrogated. You get to go to fucking Cancún and pretend like nothing happened?”
Christine: It– Exactly. Like the– She was never gonna get away with that. Are you kidding?
Em: No.
Christine: So, yeah, so she went to trial in 1994 in the spring. And the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt was on the prosecution who, of course, had just witness testimony, for the most part. Um, Mary Ellen’s friends testified that she had been talking about hiring a hitman to kill Bob for months before it happened. One friend later said, “She just didn’t seem to care who heard her soliciting his murder.” So like, it is very–
Em: Sounds like it.
Christine: Yeah, it’s very reasonable. You could have heard this at lunch, you know. Um, before she hired Jim, she even told friends she’d paid thousands of dollars to one man who failed to kill Bob, and she was like really frustrated that the deal went– fell through, that she lost all this money. And people were like– But, I’m like, why didn’t anyone say anything?
Em: Like where– Like why aren’t your friends– I mean, like was Bob just terrible?
Christine: No.
Em: Like nobody, nobody thought, “Wow, she’s really serious. She’s gonna kill him. We should do something.”
Christine: I guess maybe they just didn’t think it was real. I don’t know. I can’t wrap my mind around it.
Em: I wonder if there was a group chat away from her where they were all like, “Is this like a joke I don’t get? Like did you guys– was there an inside joke I missed last time?”
Christine: Like, yeah. “Are we all playing along? Like is this–?” Right.
Em: “Anyone else not awkward laughing with all of that?”
Christine: “Anyone feeling out of the loop? Yeah, or like a little worried? Anyone want to send an anonymous tip in maybe?”
Em: [laughs] You gotta pull the Christine of like, “I think I’m just a little confused.”
Christine: I think, I think I would just like, “Can you please explain that to me for–? Like I’m really stupid.” [laughs]
Em: “I think I missed something. Like, is, is– she’s not really tryin’ to kill him, right?” But then also maybe–
Christine: “I’m just gonna slide my phone. Can you say it a little louder into the speaker?”
Em: [laughs] But then also her own friends were like, “I couldn’t possibly even ask that question, ’cause why would I think my friend would seriously kill her husband?” You know, like maybe there’s like a mental game there of like everyone tricked themselves out of asking.
Christine: Right, right. There must be. I mean, may– There must be. And maybe she just didn’t know them well enough like it wasn’t a deep enough friendship where they were like, “Oh, she’s serious.” You know? And, so basically it was discovered also that when Bob decided to officially divorce Mary Ellen two months before she was killed, he was unemployed, and he wanted to keep the sandwich shop and wanted to pay like a lot less in spousal support ’cause he couldn’t afford more ’cause she had like spent so much of his money. And so Mary Ellen found out, “Shit, I’m going to lose this lifestyle if we get divorced.” So, how convenient. He died before the divorce was final, and she acquired the $500,000 life insurance policy.
So, of course, the prosecution focused on portraying Mary Ellen as selfish and money-hungry, hence the Green Widow. Um, she apparently took that $500,000. She purchased her new boyfriend a $50,000, I think it was a Cadillac. Um, she–
Em: How, how is anyone dating her not worried that they’re next?
Christine: I mean, right? And it’s like the ‘90s. So $50,000 for– It’s like–
Em: It– This is a goodbye gift or something.
Christine: Uh, this is a– Yeah, something’s terrible about to happen. And she spar– spent nearly $200,000 buying– on a home in Cancún, um, ’cause she wanted to move there. I wonder why. Um, and one–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] One piece of evidence in particular turned a lot of people against her, and this was the photo that I need you to now google.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Which is [laughs] Mary Ellen Samuels– I, well, I guess that wasn’t her legal name, but Mary Ellen Samuels, uh, money, I guess. Just type in money [laughs]
Em: Oh my god. Is it her lying in bed like that?
Christine: Yeah. [laughs]
Em: What the hell?
Christine: So, there’s like this picture of her like covered in– it’s, I think it’s $20,000 of cash. Um, and this photo basically was shown in court, and the jury was like, “What the fuck?”
Em: Yeah, what the hell’s going on here?
Christine: And it– Just like, turned against it– her because of this because it just is like– She basically– Yeah, it’s $20,000 in bills, and she’s just like lying there in the bed. Like is she naked? I don’t remember.
Em: Um, she– You can’t really–
Christine: Under the– It’s hard to tell.
Em: I mean, yeah. Pretty much. She’s–
Christine: Yeah. So she’s like basically topless under the m– $20,000 laying in bed, and it’s like they basically used that as kind of like a trump card like, “Oh yeah? She wasn’t doing it for the money?” You know.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And, of course, it’s very sensational.
Em: Bad look.
Christine: Yeah. The investigat– yeah, bad look, for sure. And the investigators believed like this is exactly the, the vibe that they needed to get across like, “Just look at this picture, and you’ll understand.”
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: Um, but Mary Ellen and Nicole, of course, told a different story. They told this story that Bob was like this horrible abusive guy. Um, Mary E– Nicole testified on her mom’s behalf and said like Bob was hitting and, and raping her when she was 12-years-old. And–
Em: What the hell?
Christine: And Nicole described Bob like slapping her if she p-prepared the dog’s food wrong, dumping ice on her head to wake her up. Like she was saying all this stuff about her dad. She said, um, she kept the abuse secret as a child because she was afraid it would destroy her parents’ relationship. Um, but she and Mary Ellen, her mom, were the only ones to ever like have any of this kind of story, and it was only after the trial began. So, it was like, why didn’t you say that before–
Em: Hm. Right.
Christine: –when we were questioning you in relation to this? Like, I mean, I don’t know. It’s just a little bizarre. Um, and Mary Ellen actually claimed that’s why she was divorcing him. So, it’s like, well, that’s weird. It’s not in any of the paperwork, in any of the reports. It’s just a little strange. And, um, one, one of Nicole’s high school friends did testify that she had heard Nicole talking about this before, the abuse, and the friend said that Nicole asked for help acquiring a gun.
Em: [gasps]
Christine: Because Bob was abusive, and she wanted a gun. Um, but Bob’s family refused to believe this. They were like there is literally no way in hell. And it’s hard to say ’cause it’s like, of course, if this is someone you know in your family like–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: –you’re– of c– you know, it’s like, of course, I believe you, but also, it’s like, you kn- you know, you never know with people. So it’s– it’s a hard–
Em: I mean, yeah, like she could be telling the truth. But, also like I can’t imagine being in her position where she’s like, like m– maybe she’s like just as manipulative as her mom, and like they were in cahoots with each other. But also, it sounds like– I would be worried like, “Oh my god, if she’s willing to kill her husband of six years, like maybe I need to act right and like look I’m on her side, so she doesn’t hurt me.”
Christine: Right, well, I mean, yeah, right. It’s– it could very well be like an extremely codependent relationship where she feels like she has to support her, yeah, or else she’s in danger. Exactly.
Em: Yeah, so, so you don’t even know if, if she– if that story–
Christine: How much–?
Em: –is true or if she’s just trying to protect her mom, so it looks legit?
Christine: You know what? That’s a really good point, yeah. That’s a really good point. Um, so with all that said, um, of course, Bob’s family was like that– there’s no way in hell like– she– he and Nicole– he loved Nicole more than anything. Um, and basically, they were believ– they believed that Nicole would say anything because Mary Ellen, her mom, was up for the death penalty.
Em: Mmm.
Christine: And they were like, “She just is trying her best to defend her mom.”
Em: So, yeah.
Christine: And throwing out what she can think of, is what his family believed. Um, it– I mean, Bob’s sister, Susan, even said in an interview, “After all, she’s fighting for her mother’s life.” So, it’s like. Wow.
Em: Mmm.
Christine: Um, so whether the jury believed Bob was abusing Mary Ellen and Nicole, they did believe the many testimonies that Mary Ellen had spent months publicly soliciting hitmen to kill Bob. Um, that was like pretty hard to dispute–
Em: [scoffs]
Christine: –because literally everyone was like, “Oh, yeah. She told me that too.” You know, it’s like not all these people are lying. Not all these people are lying.
Em: Like insane. I’ve– I don’t think I’ve– maybe because like it’s just it’s– I don’t, I don’t know how you think you’re gonna get away with it at that point.
Christine: I think you’re just so narcissistic that your view of the world is like, “Oh, well, I can get away with it ’cause it’s me. ’cause I’m me.” You know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Like some people like just don’t have the sense–
Em: Or like my friends are so loyal. What– they would never say anything. Something.
Christine: Like why would they say anything against me? It’s like you’re so delulu, so to speak, that you can’t even like rationalize that other people would have a problem with that, you know.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So, she was sentenced to death.
Em: Damn. Didn’t see that coming.
Christine: I know. I didn’t either. I really didn’t. Um, she was found guilty, sentenced to death. And like, as Nicole, I mean, that’s so scary.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But in 2019, her sentence was commuted to life without parole.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Um, the ruling found that Mary Ellen’s sentence was largely influenced by quote “bad character evidence,” such as references to her drug use. Um, she would like supply Nicole with alcohol when she was underage. Like just things that didn’t seem relevant, but they were basically saying like, oh, they’re saying– They, they smeared her character, and it wasn’t constitutional or whatever. It wasn’t like– it– Basically, they, they’ve changed her sentence. She was no longer on death row.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So, the ruling stated that her defense counsel failed to follow the necessary channels to omit some of this irrelevant information, and perhaps, it swayed the jury, even though it probably didn’t ’cause it’s like pretty obvious what happened, but whatever.
Em: Right.
Christine: So, Mary Ellen had been– has since been dubbed the “Green Widow,” which is a reference to the pile of cash, um, covered in money. Uh, and– Oh, you know what I didn’t realize which I had not seen before, and literally just read in the notes that I’ve read three times, so I don’t know how I missed this? That was the money she had collected from Bob’s life insurance policy.
Em: [gasps] Oh, that’s bad.
Christine: I did not know that. And it was not mentioned in–
Em: Well, that is– That’s makes sense then why they were not, uh, very kind.
Christine: That really changes the game because I’m like I watched that YouTube thing. And I watched, um, like an actual like episode from the 90’s or– I think it was from ’90’s about this. Um, it was Snapped. Or no, it was not the ’90’s. It was like from ’06 or something. But it’s, uh, an episode of Snapped on Oxygen, and like nobody mentioned that it was that money, which I mean, now, I don’t know– Maybe it– I just– Who knows? But–
Em: That, that totally makes sense why the jury was a little less sensitive about, uh–
Christine: Yeah, it’s not like this was her in college, and like she won big at the casino. You know what I mean?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: ‘Cause that I feel like is less– It’s like, well.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So, anyway. Nicole, for what it’s worth, has never been charged for any involvement in her father’s or Jim’s deaths, um, but, yeah. So, it’s– It turns out, um, Mary Ellen, she had her husband killed then had her daughter’s boyfriend killed ’cause he was involved.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Wow. Talk about drama.
Em: Talk about drama. And how old is Nicole today?
Christine: You know, I don’t actually know. I just literally closed my notes, so–
Em: Oh, that’s fine.
Christine: [laughs] I have no idea.
Em: But it– I, I mean, still like I can’t imagine going through all that. Walking in on your dad dead at s– at 18.
Christine: But then, some people say–
Em: First of all, six years before that– What?
Christine: But a lot of people say she was involved, that it was her– like her boyfriend. She was like, “I know somebody.” I mean, apparently, everybody in this story knows a fuckin’ hitman openly.
Em: Apparently so. Like, what town are they in?
Christine: I’m like, what’s going– fucking San Fernando Valley! Like, next to you. Nextdoor.
Em: [screams]
Christine: Okay, be careful out there.
Em: Um, no, but I mean, even, even still like to see that at 18, just like– ’cause maybe– Maybe she was–
Christine: Um. No, of course, of course! Whether she was involved or not, it’s deeply traumatic. And like who knows– Even if she was involved, like who knows if this was just– I mean, she’s 18. She’d been l-literally a minor before that.
Em: And even if she, even if she was involved, maybe she didn’t know like, “Oh, my, my own mom is gonna walk me right in to seeing him without a face?” Like.
Christine: It’s like manipul– yeah! Who knows? Right, oh my god. This is manipulation. Who knows? So–
Em: ’Cause maybe it was like, “Oh, yeah. Something’s gonna happen, and he’s not gonna be with us for much longer.” And then–
Christine: That’s horrible. It’s horrible, and now her mom’s in prison for life.
Em: And, but then you walk in– ugh.
Christine: It’s like now you lose both parents. It’s just devastating.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So, it’s just really tragic, um, and just very topsy-turvy. I, I’m telling you that’s why I read the notes three times. Clearly, I still missed something. But, um, I also watched several things on it, because I was like I– My brain is so confused with the hitmen and the–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: –brother and the boy– the– Everyone’s boyfriend’s a hitman, and I’m like, “Who’s not a hitman in this story?”
Em: Ugh.
Christine: Like it– If I watched this on fucking, uh, whatever– pfft– Lifetime, I don’t know. I don’t know. Any of these fucking channels, I’d be like, ”That’s not realistic at all.”
Em: I agree. I’d be like s– “Okay, we need to like stop hiring people from like Lifetime like this is–“
Christine: Like AMC. Yeah, please. Right. It’s like–
Em: Like make it believable.
Christine: Even Mad Men is more believable than this, come on. You know, it’s like. Wow.
Em: Oy.
Christine: Um, but anyway, so I, uh, have a, uh, podcast discussion date with a neighbor friend of mine, so, uh, we might have to do the Yappy Hour at a separate time, if that’s okay.
Em: That’s fine.
Christine: But I also already have some ideas for it ’cause when I was sitting here, I was like, oh my gosh, I’ve got my mugwort pillow. I’ve got Leticia Lemon. I’ve so many Show and Tells.
Em: Well, we’re recording our Listeners Episode on Friday. We can do it after that.
Christine: Perfect!
Em: Poifect.
Christine: Poifect.
Em: Okay. Great, well, that was a great story, Christine. Well done. And I– Sorry to everyone for this two and a half hour episode, but, you know what? If that’s what you like, that’s what you like. I hope you’re having a great road trip.
Christine: I think I just knew I needed to be in bed ’cause it would be three hours, and I was like, “I need to stay seated. Yeah.”
Em: [laughs] Yeah.
Christine: Horizontal.
Em: Oh god, I hear this dog about to bark, so maybe we should go.
Christine: Let’s bolt.
Em: Alright. Thank you, everybody. Uh, and hope to see you next week! I don’t know why I wouldn’t. Why did I say that? Goodbye! And–
Christine: I hope to see you next week also. That’s– [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Why–
Christine: We–
Em: Drink.
[laughs]
Christine: Oh god.