[intro music]
[vocalization]
Em: That's the Olympics.
Christine: Oh, it always sound... They all sound the same to me.
Em: I really thought that was the graduation song, but, you know, imagine us walking down the aisle.
Christine: I'll sing the grad... I'll sing the graduation song. Okay, are you ready?
Em: Okay.
Christine: As we go on...
[laughter]
Em: Christine, we've been doing this 400 times together today.
Christine: Is this... Okay, this is exactly why I don't like to plan fun, like crazy things, because they end up being so unhinged anyway. Like we are recording, Em, what time is it for you?
Em: It's 8:00 in the morning. And it was like...
Christine: Yeah. And by the way, that's not normal. Okay. For us. Please, please.
Em: No, but uh, we also... My face looks so red compared to yours, doesn't it?
Christine: Hmm. Maybe...
Em: Maybe it's because I'm behind... There's a white background behind me.
Christine: Maybe it's like, because you woke up at 7:00 in the morning.
Em: Maybe my... My blood is all in my face currently, it'll... It'll go away at some point. [laughter] Umm and my hair, I just told Christine, I look like I live by the river umm...
Christine: You do. [laughter]
Em: A lot is... A lot is going on today, but I'm very excited. It is our 400th. I tried to get you a happy 400th banner, umm, to present to you.
Christine: Aww.
Em: But, umm, it didn't come in time. And so if you would like, I could take off the wall, happy 75th birthday from when Allison's mom was here.
Christine: Oh, that's cute. I'll take it. Sure. I'll do a hand me down Happy 75th.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Let me see it. Oh, how cute.
Em: Happy 75th.
Christine: Look at that.
Em: We love you. How's it...
Christine: I feel so special.
Em: Honestly, I feel 75 that we've done 400 episodes. So it does still kind of fit.
Christine: Yeah, it does feel, uh, like we've been on this planet and this podcasting plane for far too long, and we've well surpassed our... Our welcome. But that's okay. We're gonna stay. So don't worry, everybody. We're not going anywhere.
Em: Christine, let's... Just give me a second. Let's just reminisce. What has been your... One of your favorite moments? You don't have to say your favorite.
Christine: Okay, I'll hum while...
Em: My favorite has been, I love when we did America's Hircine Shifter. I love when you covered Cletus, which was me.
[laughter]
Christine: Cletus.
Em: I love...
[laughter]
Em: I... Okay, let's... Let's do like at least one thing that you're actually super proud of that we've accomplished in 400 episodes.
Christine: Like okay. There's so many. Umm...
Em: Like what's the thing that you never thought would happen though? Like you've gotten to do?
Christine: Oh God, all of it. But let me think of one. Umm, I mean, I think... I know we say this all the time, but just being interviewed on Jim Harold's podcast multiple times...
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Felt like the most surreal full circle moment. And we did... Did it again in honor of our new book. And I every time it's like, I feel... And then I listened to his podcast and I'm like, I know him. Like it's just very, umm, surreal because... The four episode one.
[overlapping conversation]
Em: That's...
Christine: We were like, let... We were like, oh my God, can you imagine if someday we were like Jim Harold, and, and now we're like pals with him. So I think that's the most like, to me, very like symbolic full circle. What do you... What is your... Do you have a...
Em: That's certainly the full circle one, I think.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Because that was the beginning of it all.
Christine: It feels very symbolic, you know?
Em: We... Let's see. The first one that comes to mind is that we've had... We've had Rainn Wilson talk to us.
Christine: Mm, see that one's so surreal. I don't even remember it happening. Like I blacked it out.
Em: Sometimes... I posted it at some point, in like my Instagram feed. And then when I'm looking at myself on Instagram, because I like to pretend I'm everybody else.
Christine: Wow.
Em: And I'm like, what, what do they see? You know what I mean?
Christine: It's like when you're not on the, umm... When you're not... When you're living... When you look like you're living by the river, it's nice to reminisce during times when you felt more put together. Yeah. I get it.
Em: When I was living on, not by the river. Yeah. Umm...
Christine: On the banks yeah.
[chuckle]
Em: Umm, no, I think that was the most holy shit moment for me. Umm...
Christine: That... That was the most, one of the most nervous I think I've ever been in my life. Like I remember sitting there and being so nervous I was going to throw up.
Em: Especially because we were told, "Hey, don't act like he's Rainn Wilson."
[laughter]
Christine: That's the other thing. They were like...
Em: I was like what?
Christine: He's going to hop on in character as this Terry Carnation and you can't act like he's Rainn Wilson. And I was like, this feels like a lot of can't rules. It's just like too many rules.
[laughter]
Em: Umm, I think it's also interesting to note when we started, wow, it was a long time ago, but the things that have happened since we have gotten houses.
Christine: Oh my God.
Em: You have gotten engaged, married and have a child.
Christine: Wow, I really fucking flew past those.
[chuckle]
Em: You really said, I'm going to do it all. Umm...
Christine: And then this year you bought a house. So are the... Next for you, next for you or not? Not quite.
Em: Uh, a dog is next for us...
Christine: A dog is huge.
Em: But it won't be for a while.
Christine: A dog is huge. I got two cats.
Em: You got two cats, a human, umm, by the way, today is that human's birthday.
Christine: Oh, that's right. Also, good morning. Happy third birthday Leona.
Em: That... That's one of the reasons why we're recording early today. So Christine can go celebrate her little baby.
Christine: It's just been a weird timing, yeah.
Em: Umm, what... How... Are you excited? You've got a whole three-year-old... What are the odds, 400 episodes in, when you did episode one, you're like, I wonder what it'll look like.
Christine: Oh my God!
Em: And on your 400th, you've got a three-year-old.
Christine: Oh, and I've gotten multiple tattoos. Sorry, I'm still distracted by all the things that I have accomplished. Umm, yeah, that's really wild Em, to be sitting in a house in a completely different state with a three-year-old recording our 400th episode.
Em: Yeah. I'm very proud of you.
Christine: Wow. Thank you. That's nice. I'm very proud of you too. We've done a lot these past several years.
Em: We sure have. Is there a reason why you drink besides having a whole three-year-old today?
Christine: Uh umm, yeah. Well, first of all, my dad texted me 'cause he's coming over later and he's like, I just would like to watch the German soccer game during the birthday party. And I was like, okay.
Em: It sounds like him, that sounds like him.
Christine: Whatever. Just do it. Uh, secondly, I... Oh, I've been meaning to announce this. I keep forgetting I was on my friend... So my friend... This feels also a little full circle because my friend Nicole who did... Umm, she used to do, Dude, That's Fucked Up, the podcast, and they haven't done it in a while, but she and I did improv together in LA and she recently emailed me. And I think this is the fastest I've ever responded to an email in the history of my life. She emailed me and said, "Hey, I have this new podcast I'm doing with a friend, umm, called Baywatchers where we're... Where we watch an episode of 'Baywatch' each season or... Each episode and, umm, we basically have a guest on to like discuss or, and it's... It's, very funny." And uh, I was like, "Hell yeah, I'm in." And so like the day after we recorded it, and I have never watched 'Baywatch' before, but, umm, David Hasselhoff is a German icon, so I've... I've...
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I've heard a lot about him and you know how he, with his own bare hands tore down the Berlin Wall all that good stuff. Umm, and you know what, it was the best time ever, but I wanted to share it 'cause I keep forgetting to actually share it on social media, but it's called Bay Watchers and umm, I just like, can't get over how weird and fun and wacky it was. So, I don't know. All these things are just, umm, very surreal and special. So that was my little, that was... What about you? Why do you drink? Besides, of course, David Hasselhoff.
Em: Umm, uh I don't know. I'll... I'll go with... I'll take Leona this time around. I think, uh, I'm very excited for you and your little baby. I'm also very excited, her and I have been bonding a lot more recently.
Christine: Oh, I wrapped... I finally wrapped the gift. You've been so... She's obsessed with you to the point that like... So I wrapped the gift you got her, which, uh, you brought like a spidey denim jacket.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I wrapped that last night. She's gonna open that today.
Em: Yay.
Christine: She's gonna lose her damn mind.
Em: I'm so excited. It's... It's... Literally looks like a little biker jacket, but it's only Spidey themed and she's...
Christine: It's super cute.
Em: A big Spidey fan.
Christine: Big Spidey.
Em: Umm, but, uh, last time I saw you, we were on the road and you brought Leona with you. And, uh, it was our first time bonding alone. It was only for like five minutes but...
Christine: Yeah. I was like, if... Em was like, wow, I can't believe you let me take your child. I was like, I've been waiting for someone to take my child for, for, for the longest time. And you just whisked her away. Went to your room to play. Listened to 'Frozen.'
Em: I did think you were behind me in the hotel hall.
Christine: Yeah. I actively made sure that I locked the door as you left to make sure.
Em: I looked around, I went, I don't know where your mom is, but I guess I'm gonna just hang out with you now.
Christine: And then the moment I was like, ah, peace and quiet. And then I turned the shower on and Em calls and goes, "Leona wants you in my room now." And I was like, "Here I come.'
Em: I did feel bad. I really was gonna try to be helpful, but then immediately, she was like, "Where's my mommy?" And I went, ugh.
Christine: She's not gonna allow... Yeah, she's gonna be... She's gonna not allow me to have that moment of solitude. And that's okay.
Em: But I will say the reason I drink, which I already told you when we were, uh, in our green room, is that she grabbed my face.
[laughter]
Em: And she said, "Funcle Em I love you."
[laughter]
Christine: She's such a gem.
Em: All by herself.
Christine: She really is one of those people where you're like, whoa, that's so kind and nice. I don't know...
Em: It's very German of her. I didn't see it coming at all. It was just...
Christine: Yeah.
Em: All of a sudden there was an emotion and then it went away and it was like...
[laughter]
Christine: And then it's like, anyway, play your song again. Play Olaf again.
Em: Anyway where's 'Frozen?' I thought we were playing 'Frozen.' Yeah.
Christine: Hurry up Em. Funcle Em.
Em: Umm, another reason I drink is because since it is the 1st, umm, when we're recording this, it is officially spooky season today. And we bought our first spooky piece of decor.
Christine: Ooh, show me.
Em: For the house.
Christine: Show me, show me, show me, show me.
Em: It is from Michels. Michaels.
Christine: Michels, uh-huh.
Em: And... And it's...
Christine: What the F dude, Michaels has the best random coffin-shaped shit.
Em: For people who are not watching YouTube, it is a coffin-shaped curio cabinet with a clock in it.
Christine: That's un... That's so fucking cool. And that was from Michaels? Michels?
Em: It was from Michel. And I said, "Thank you Michel." And Michel said, "You're welcome. Enjoy."
Christine: And then Christine said, "I have a 30% off coupon. I'm gonna copy you and get one too."
Em: That's fine. We can match. Umm...
Christine: I have those, uh... They sell those glass potion bottles.
Em: Oh we have 'em.
Christine: I'm sure you have those.
Em: All of them.
Christine: And then I'm sure you have... We... I have the... Like I was with you actually when I bought these... These... Those little glass terrari... I was pregnant. That's right 'cause you visited when I was pregnant in Octo... In Oct... Or no, September. And I was like, let's go to Michaels, I don't know what else to do with myself besides eat figs and have you stare at me and like check my blood pressure every five seconds. Umm, but I went and bought all these like glass coffin terrariums with like, you put little moss and oh my God, they have the best stuff at Michaels.
Em: Ugh, it was... Uh, well it was a good time, but it was replacing kind of a stinker time because we last night wanted to go to spirit Halloween. And we usually have one, not triangulating myself at all, but we usually have one like five minutes away from us, at least from our old place.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And so we went back there assuming it was open and, umm, it used to be a Kmart back in the day and it's just been this abandoned place ever since.
Christine: The best spirit of Halloweens are. Yeah.
Em: Yeah, umm...
Christine: Either Toys "R" Us, Kmart. Yeah, there's a few.
Em: So we went to the abandoned Kmart and there was... It just, I guess this year's spirit Halloween said, we're not doing it, and so we were like, oh...
Christine: That's even scarier than a Halloween store, an abandoned Kmart. Are you kidding me?
Em: I know, we should have just kept going on in.
Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say maybe that's part of the vibe.
Em: So Michels was plan two, but it was a good... It was a good plan too.
Christine: Wow. Well, I'm, uh... I'm proud of your... Your uh, acquisition 'cause that is a really cool curio cabinet.
Em: Thank you. I'm very excited. We got that and then we got a little, umm... I felt bad. I... We... I had a whole plan this week of like decorating the entire house all Halloweeny. We're gonna... We have a yard now, so we're gonna decorate the yard.
Christine: Oh right.
Em: Umm, and now I am... Uh, there was some family stuff going on. So I'm heading home, uh.
Christine: In like two hours.
[laughter]
Em: In like two hours. Umm, and so...
Christine: Again, hence the 7:00 AM recording if anyone's trying to figure out what's going on.
Em: And so, uh, I'm just... I'm just heading home to hang out with my mom. But...
Christine: Yeah.
Em: We, uh... Basically I had all these big plans and now I just don't know when I'm gonna be around 'cause I think I'm going to be there and then we go back on the road. And so like, I don't know when I'm gonna... For all I know the house is not gonna be decorated this year for Halloween, but it's also not decorated on the inside either. So maybe that's fine.
[laughter]
Christine: Yeah. It's fine. Also every year it's like Leona's birthday passes. Then it's like her birthday party a few days later. Then like the week after, I freak out because I'm like, oh my God, we're two weeks in October and I have not done Halloween.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: It always ends up getting done and being fun and like being up for several weeks. So don't... Don't pressure yourself. I feel like with a house especially, there's like this like, shit, it's October, the clock is ticking, but like you have several weeks, you know. Like in a few weeks you can still throw it up. Leave it up for a while, it's still fun. And, uh, Halloweeny even if it's just for like a week or two.
Em: Yeah. And also we are building our Spookeasy, so hopefully it will be Halloween year round.
Christine: Yeah, yeah exactly.
Em: At least, a chunk of the house. Anyway, so that's why I drink. I drink for Leona.
Christine: Mmm.
Em: Umm, I do drink something kind of gross for Leona though, because we don't have anything else. Umm, but it's a... You would like it. I won't. It's, umm... It's a flavored sparkling Liquid Death.
Christine: Oh yeah. That sounds delicious.
Em: Yeah. I only, I want my plain boring from the creek, from the river where my hair goes...
Christine: You... Yeah. Where you wash your hair...
[laughter]
Em: Umm, yeah, it's severed lime.
Christine: Yeah. I like that one. That's a good one.
Em: I don't want to drink this, but we have nothing else.
Christine: But it's... You don't have to drink it. I'm sorry to say.
Em: I am sorry. I'm hosting the 400th episode of a show called, And That's Why We Drink, and this is all we have to drink. So I'm drinking and I'm gonna do it for you and you're going to be appreciative and everyone else is too. And with that... Drink up my thirsty little rats because I'm doing it. You gotta do it too.
Christine: Oh.
Em: And take your meds. And take your meds.
Christine: I did take my meds... Actually, we had cleaners come today and, umm, I had to run down while they were cleaning and like vacuuming and grab my medicine. And I was like, excuse me. I'm sorry I live here, but I've... I've... I've get out... You know that feeling when there's someone in your house and you just wanna avoid them and pretend...
Em: And you're still in the way.
Christine: Yeah. And you pretend like, oh, I don't live here. I just... Please ignore my existence. And I'm like, why do I act so fucking weird around strangers?
Em: No, I do that in my own home too. I'm like... I'm like, I wish... I'm almost jealous of all the ghosts in my house. I'm like, no one can see you.
Christine: I know.
Em: No one's gonna ask you a question.
Christine: Every time they're here. I'm like, this is your house now people who are doing me a solid and vacuuming and mopping the floors. You live here now. Not me.
Em: We had the internet come... Oh, the, the, no, the guy, we had a guy come over and build our, umm... Our bed. Which that's another reason why I drink from a while ago because we've never had a bed frame. And, umm...
[laughter]
Christine: Congrats, Em in 400 episodes, I've had a baby and a house and three pets and tattoos.
Em: Uh-huh.
Christine: You've got a bed frame and I'm...
Em: I literally...
Christine: Super happy for you.
Em: It's one of the only things that's changed. I have the exact same cars, episode one. I have the exact same...
Christine: Oh my God. I've literally... I've literally have... That's the... You know what, that I always think that about us. That like we have... We're very similar in a lot of ways, especially Gemini ways. And then we're... We have this like total polar opposite thing where I cannot let something be the same for very long 'cause I get so bored. I get so like restless. I need something to change immediately. Like, I love... I wanna move houses the minute I move in. Like, I'm like unhinged like that. Em's kind of the opposite of like, I'm settled, I'm here. Don't make me move, like leave or, or upset the balance.
Em: I hate change. I mean, I know I say that all the time, but I really...
Christine: I love it, man. I don't know.
Em: I literally, I got my car re... You know, I got like an oil change and all this stuff yesterday, and I think it's like officially an old car because the people who were doing it went...
Christine: Yeah. Em.
Em: Oh.
Christine: You've had it since like before grad school.
Em: Yeah. I've had it since...
Christine: Wait, you had it for a long time.
Em: After, I...
Christine: Of course it's an old car.
Em: I got it when I graduated college, so.
Christine: Holy smokes.
Em: But it works... She works fine.
Christine: I don't say anything's wrong with it.
Em: She works fine.
Christine: But it's definitely like 11 years old now, right? 10, 11 years old.
Em: She... She's an old girl. Yeah, she's chugging along. But anyway, uh, I got, uh... Sorry, let's bring all the tangents back into the fold. Let's rewind.
Christine: Oh, fine.
Em: Umm, my bed. Oh yeah. It was my... It's my first bed frame and Allison and I, girl mathed, it was very expensive. We were like, in seven years, if you add up the amount of times we didn't have a bed frame, this is basically free. So we...
Christine: That's actually pretty logical to me. Yeah.
Em: Did that. Umm, oh, and so the guy who came to build our bed, he just, like... He kept asking me questions and I was like, can you get the fuck away from... Like, can you just build my bed and go?
Christine: Whoa. Just build my bed. How am I supposed to answer your questions?
Em: He was like. Where do you want it? I was like, I don't know. Allison's not here to tell me.
Christine: Oh yeah. I don't like that. I'd be like... I'd be like, this is your house remember sir.
Em: I know.
Christine: You build... No, like it's his house now. You put the bed wherever you think it goes.
[laughter]
Em: You tell me.
Christine: And then I'll pay, I'll pay you triple. 'Cause I don't know how this works and I'm stressed out.
Em: Isn't this your job to know how a bed should look by the end of this?
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So you put it where you gotta put it. Umm, I don't know how we got there, but I do have, umm, a good story for you Christine.
Christine: Yay.
Em: I don't know how to segue out of that. So let's just go into the story.
Christine: This one's perfect. Seguing is not our specialty.
Em: I have a story for you where I was thinking, hmm, episode 400, what should we do? What should we do? And I was trying to think of...
[chuckle]
Em: I thought of a very stupid thing first. Let's...
Christine: Oh, oh well.
Em: Let's get that out of the way.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: I... It must have been an actual dream that I woke up and forgot it was a dream and thought it was reality.
Christine: What?
Em: In my mind, Sinisterhood has covered a topic about a, umm, like, like it was a clairvoyant. I always forget the one who can see the future.
Christine: Oh a psychic?
Em: A psychic.
Christine: That's clairvoyant. Yeah.
Em: I had a dream that Sinisterhood covered a psychic who only use, who only tells the future based on like raw pasta.
Christine: What?
[laughter]
Christine: I love that you... Wait, you don't even listen to podcasts. You're like, I had a dream Sinisterhood covered and... Wow.
Em: I... Well 'cause I'm friends with Heather. I assume that maybe she said something in passing to me, I guess. I don't remember, but I... I...
Christine: Or like on social media or something that you saw.
Em: Or I saw something. Yeah, but I... I... In my mind, there was...
Christine: Is it weird that my brain goes, that feels kinda right though. Like I don't know why.
Em: Well, it still doesn't sound that wrong to me in my head because I've... I, first of all up until a few days ago, could have sworn that she'd covered it and that it was, umm... It was this woman who she would tell the future by taking a handful of raw pasta, throwing it in the air and however it laid on the floor, she'd read it like a tarot card. And I was like, that doesn't... That's like tea leaves.
Christine: Yeah. I feel like that's a thing like pickup sticks.
Em: Yeah. And so...
Christine: I'm getting excited [laughter]
Em: And so then I looked like a real idiot 'cause I was like trying to... I couldn't...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine: Dry spaghetti psychic...
[laughter]
Christine: I'm assuming these were dry, raw noodles, right?
Em: I'm assuming too.
Christine: Okay.
Em: I... But so I...
Christine: Can you imagine just a bunch of wet spaghetti and you're like, let me read. And they're like, you're not supposed to cook it first dumb ass.
Em: Just dip your hand in the boiling pot and then pick it up and throw it on the floor.
Christine: See what happens. Yeah.
Em: Umm, so anyway, I looked like a real idiot 'cause then I texted Heather and I went, "Hey, who's that... "
Christine: No, you didn't.
Em: "Who's that."
Christine: You did not.
Em: "Pasta psychic?"
Christine: You did not. Wow. That went a step further than I expected.
Em: Yeah. Umm, so Heather has confirmed for me. She's never covered that.
Christine: I'm glad you triple checked just in case.
[laughter]
Christine: That does sound like a thing though for some reason to me.
Em: Doesn't it?
Christine: Yes.
Em: Yeah. I don't... I tried...
Christine: Like, I'm almost afraid people are gonna be like, yeah, that's a thing.
Em: Umm, if it is real, that's what I was gonna cover.
Christine: Maybe it's on TikTok or something.
Em: Well, my plan was eventually I was going to... I was gonna reach out to her and see... See could you...
Christine: To the psychic, who does the spaghetti that is not real.
Em: Yes.
Christine: Oh, okay. Sure.
Em: My plan was I was gonna cover it and then as a gift to you on our 400th, I was gonna see if I could like book a session and she could tell us like what she saw for the next 400 episodes with us.
Christine: Imagine. Imagine we had someone on to throw spaghetti on the floor and tell us what the next...
Em: I mean, I have spaghetti. I could just throw it across the room right now and tell you how things are gonna go.
Christine: Especially maybe you are that psychic. Maybe this is the... A future for you.
Em: Was my very first vision of how I have to do the rest of my visions.
Christine: Holy shit.
Em: That's me.
Christine: I think it's real.
Em: Anyway, that's obviously not what's happening today. So then I had to come up with a plan B. And I was like, okay, 400. I was like, oh, celebrating blah, blah, blah. And I went, oh, there's that story I've always wanted to cover about dancing. And so actually somebody guessed it right on Instagram. I put out...
Christine: I saw you do a little thing. I put your butt but you didn't answer me.
Em: I saw, I saw. Uh, I posted on Instagram as Christine just mentioned. That I said, you know, who... What do you think I'm gonna cover? Three people guessed it right. So to those three people.
Christine: Wow. Wow. That's pretty impressive actually.
Em: Everybody else, by the way, wanted me to cover your house, just so we you know. [laughter] So...
Christine: Someday.
Em: Maybe, maybe For the 500th I'll cover your house.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Umm, anyway, to those three people, congratulations. This is the Dancing Plague of 1518.
Christine: Oh my God. Okay. I'm so interested in this. All right.
Em: Okay. So, uh, this... Fun fact, I wanna start by saying that the event itself actually inspired many short films, umm, books and songs, but my favorite of them all is the song Choreomania by Florence and, and The Machine, which came out during COVID, I think.
Christine: Oh. I know that song. I don't think I had realized the name. Yeah, that didn't... I didn't put that together.
Em: Umm, I think it's a song. It's a song, right? Or is it just the album name? I think it's a song.
Christine: I think it's a song. Maybe I'm wrong. Choreomania. I do like Florence and the Machine. I feel like I don't listen to their recent stuff very much though. Yeah, it's a song. Yeah.
Em: I was a big Florence and the Machine fan in, uh, college.
Christine: Oh, in College? Me too.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Me too.
Em: The Dog Days Are Over really... It got us all really the entire generation.
Christine: GASP. That was like a very, uh, symbolic song for our time, for our college years. I feel like, like a very...
Em: That should have been for our 400th episode. That should be our graduation song.
Christine: Okay. I can't... It's vitamin C String Quartet or whatever the fuck I sang earlier is like hard enough. I can't do that high... Those high notes.
Em: Well, okay, so here we go. Thanks Florence and the Machine for some potential music inspo. As for the actual Dancing Plague of 1518. Here are some fun facts about it. From the 14th to the 16th centuries, there were several reports of dancing plagues. So I always thought this was one event.
Christine: I did too.
Em: Apparently there was at least 10 of these.
Christine: What? [laughter] What's happening?
Em: And they say the 14th to the 16th centuries. It was more kinda like the 14th to like, I think the 18th century, but...
Christine: Okay.
Em: I think there was only like one in those 200 years. So they don't even really count it, but basically, umm, 1300s to 1500s.
Christine: And then somebody was just late to the party. Like a hundred years.
Em: Yeah. And then like... And then another one just like tried to copy the others. Umm...
Christine: Got it.
Em: But, so there were several reports of people in Central Europe having compulsive desires to dance and only stopping when they were so physically exhausted. They either did or nearly died.
Christine: That's really scary. I know that it like is... Everyone kind of laughs about it, but it's really freaky.
Em: Yeah. But it could be you next. Umm, the most famous case, however, is the one that everyone has suggested, which is the one from 1518 in Strasbourg, which is now in France. But at the time it was the Holy Roman Empire. And, uh, the... I guess it's a main character. Some sources don't even know if she's a real person, but the, umm, an overwhelming amount of sources at least say that we start with this woman named Frau Troffea and... Great name.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And she apparently left her house one day. She walked into a nearby street and that girl began to dance. She boogied.
Christine: Oh my God. I love that she left her house first, though.
Em: I know you couldn't just like do it behind closed doors.
Christine: Or do it in the living room?
Em: You need people to look.
Christine: Like a normal person. [laughter]
Em: Mm-hmm. So, uh, she began to dance, which I do wonder what like 1518 dancing looked like 'cause...
Christine: I do too.
Em: 'Cause it's, it wh... It's not like they were grinding up on each other, you know.
Christine: Yeah. It's like every...
Em: It was...
Christine: Decade they're grinding up on each other.
Em: You know, like nightclub music.
Christine: Every... I feel like every decade has, uh, like its own, you know, like the, like Teach me how to Dougie was a big one. Umm, and then like a ha... You know, for a couple years, umm, Stanky Legg, at least these are... These are definitely dating me. But, umm, you know, then you think, what, 400 years ago, what might the Stanky Legg have looked like?
Em: I know the... Oh, you know what song? Speaking of Stanky Legg, you know what song I... Funcle Em just taught Leona?
Christine: Oh God.
Em: You know, it Wobble baby. Wobble Baby Wo... [laughter] And the...
Christine: Okay that was really funny actually. And she got really into that.
Em: And then she started saying, I'm the wobble baby. And I was like...
Christine: Yes she did. Yeah.
Em: Girl, you are. And then...
Christine: And she kept dancing. Talk about not stopping.
Em: And then she taught me. She... This is the funny, this is actually I think baby's first joke because [laughter], she... Then we were watching PAW Patrol. She was teaching me all about how much Rubble is her favorite.
Christine: Right.
Em: And then on her own she started saying, Rubble baby. Rubble baby.
Christine: Yeah. Okay.
Em: Rubble baby. Rubble.
Christine: That's true. That's true. She... She did have... She does have Em's eye for puns, you know?
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Or Em's Ear for puns I guess, if you will. Umm, that's true. We were all pretty shocked when she said Rubble baby. 'Cause we went, oh my God, that was actually kind of clever. How did you do that? [laughter],
Em: That girl's so witty. [laughter]
Christine: How did she do it?
Em: Okay. So anyway, uh, let's assume that Frau was doing the rubble baby.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No other cha... No chance of anything. [laughter]
Em: And so she starts dancing, she starts dancing with the type of madness that is... Like, people are noticing that she's da... I mean, first of all, isn't it kind of like, should women be dancing? Are you... Aren't you like a a hoe.
Christine: Like that seems... Yeah. Yeah.
Em: You know.
Christine: That seems inappropriate already for the time. Yeah.
Em: A, a harlot as Christine says.
Christine: Especially by yourself.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: As a harlot. Yes.
Em: Like, who are you summoning over to?
Christine: And also, you know, everybody... I feel like everyone knows each other back then in their villages. Like you're not going very far. So it's like.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Why is Miss so-and-so... Like, I've literally seen her do the same thing, go to the butcher every morning and now she's like on the side of the road dancing. [laughter] That would be so trippy back then. Like what?
Em: I'd be like Ms. Frau had a little too much coffee.
Christine: Ms. Frau.
Em: Irish coffee, I think.
Christine: Yes. Something and there's a bit of Irish coffee and there's not even any music playing, which is so unsettling.
Em: Yeah. So apparently sh... Umm, I'm assuming at least she stuck out like a sore thumb.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Especially if she was doing the wobble baby. And so when she eventually, or at least other people eventually realized that not only was she outside dancing, which I'm assuming was a big no-no. Umm, she's by herself. Nobody's like vouching. But this is like normal behavior for her.
Christine: There's no music, which is so creepy. Every time I think about...
Em: No music.
Christine: People dancing without music, there's something so creepy about it.
Em: Absolutely. Umm. People realize she's not stopping and she's dancing. Like, I mean, she's not resting. She's not eating. She's not stopping to go to the bathroom. She is...
Christine: I wonder how long it took before people were like, should we ask her what she's doing?
Em: See, I don't know why there's not a single fucking source that says somebody approached her and went, girl, are you okay?
Christine: Girl what's going on?
Em: Like what... What are we celebrating? Why are you... It's been... It's like 7:00 AM What are you doing? It's now midnight. Like nothing. But she danced and people noticed.
Christine: What the fuck.
Em: For like at least six days.
Christine: What? Okay. I thought you were going to say like six hours and then someone intervened.
Em: No, no, no.
Christine: Six days?
Em: Days. She apparently... Only one source said this, but I have to believe it's true because otherwise this is physically impossible. But one source said that she did kind of slow down to kind of like do like the nodding the...
Christine: The nodding off...
Em: Like nodding off to sleep thing.
Christine: Oh, what a nightmare.
Em: So she in some way was getting rest, but she was definitely.
Christine: But like not really...
Em: Not going to bed umm...
Christine: Wow.
Em: And she just kept on going. And the even weirder part is that eventually other people started dancing with her. And it was, I don't know if people were like kind of mocking her and then they kind of got into it. Like, okay, Frau, okay Frau.
Christine: Yeah, they're like what's... Like let's see if she knows something we don't know. You know.
Em: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if... If I saw someone danc...
Christine: Okay, Frau. Get it Frau. [laughter]
Em: Uh, I mean if I knew Frau and she was in my village and I saw her dancing, I'd be like, okay, do it to 'em. You got to do it to 'em.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Like I would just kind of keep it moving.
Christine: Do the Stanky Legg. You know what I mean?
Em: But after like an a... At least 15 minutes max, I'd be like, we have to talk about why this is happening.
Christine: Yeah. Also can we... Like the joke feels like we're starting to get a little thin, you know, it's like six days in like, okay, haha, it's over now. But I do have a quick question. Do you know... Which I assume you would have said if you knew. But do you know if she ever was like, "Help." Like saying like, "Guys, I don't know why I'm dancing."
Em: No. I don't know anything, which is crazy.
Christine: That's so weird. Like, wouldn't you at least be like, Hey, sorry. I don't know why I'm doing this.
Em: I promise you. Uh, I... The amount of sources I... I looked at for the... For an answer like that was, umm, numerous.
Christine: That makes me so mad. I'm like, why didn't anyone tell the important facts? Like was there music? Like what kind of dance did she do? Like...
Em: There... There were certain... I agree with you. There was certainly, they... They did say there was no music.
Christine: No music. Okay. That definitely helps picture it.
Em: Umm but... Yeah. It's certainly creepy, but, umm, they don't say how she's dancing. In my mind, it's probably like a light shuffle.
Christine: Just like... Right.
Em: Because anything else would make you a harlot. Umm...
Christine: Yeah, it was not like she learned... Like just suddenly developed the ability to do all these insane dance moves. It's like she's wiggling.
Em: Like it's not like she's like not Simone Biles-ing in the street, you know? But I... I will say that would probably also explain why she was able to do it for six days. Like if you're like doing all... It's like a light jog versus a sprint, you know?
Christine: Right. Right. Right.
Em: Like this is a marathon that we're doing here. So...
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, literally, yes.
Em: But at some point I would think she would have said, help, please. Like I need... Someone help. And there's no record of that.
Christine: Okay. Okay.
Em: Or anybody approaching her and going, do you need help? 'Cause this is... You look crazy. You need to go inside.
Christine: Yep. Yep.
Em: At some point people, I'm assuming they were like originally mocking her or like trying to chime in. Maybe this was their way of intervening, but they started dancing with her. And...
Christine: Yeah. They were like, let's dance her back to her house. Let's all circle and say, woo.
Em: Let's all bougie this way.
Christine: Or just... Yeah. Put her in a chair. Let's all hoist her up. Take her all the way home.
Em: I'd be like, let's... Let's do dirty dancing, girl. I'll catch you.
Christine: Yeah. Right.
Em: And then just carry her.
Christine: And you're just like, run back. Okay. A little farther, a little farther into the doorway of her house.
Em: So, uh, yeah, the people just, we... I don't know why people started dancing, but they do. And then they also can't stop. And so this is like a week of it was her... By herself, it seems, or by... It was either the first week or the second week. Now 30 people have started dancing with her and can't stop.
Christine: Oh my God. Oh my God.
Em: A mon... At the end of the month, she has been doing this for a month now. 400 people are dancing in this town and can't stop.
Christine: How is she alive?
Em: Also like this is not the era of DoorDash. Someone isn't like bringing you a sandwich. Like...
Christine: Yeah. What's going on?
Em: How is she eating? How... Like...
Christine: How is anyone doing anything? Like the butcher must be closed. Like I can't imagine. I don't know why I keep saying butcher.
Em: Well, the butcher's dancing. He's probably... He's...
Christine: Exactly. He just left the shop open?
Em: Also like if she brought like a pocket of snacks for her dance day, like that's depleted.
Christine: Yeah. Well for sure. For sure. Like she's out of those. She... Drinking water, like anything?
Em: No. And funny you should mention, cause it was July, 1518.
Christine: Oh God.
Em: And it was, they say a hot summer, but also...
Christine: For Germany or wherever we are. Like France.
Em: Like and also compared to today and after the ar... The area had just had like a light ice age. So umm...
Christine: Oh LOL, just a miniature ice age.
Em: So I don't really know how hot of a summer, but one source did say it was a hot summer. It was July. So let's just say it was warmer when it happened.
Christine: It it was a toasty day. Yeah. Especially in all those layers. I imagine. Burlap and shit.
Em: All those layers. Wool.
Christine: Wool and burlap.
Em: Uh but they... Yeah, nothing to eat, nothing to drink. And it seemed that more and more people were joining in.
Christine: Okay.
Em: The city... The city hears about this obviously, because the town was probably only 400 people wide.
Christine: 'Cause the city is... Yeah. Exactly.
Em: And now no one's going to work.
Christine: The city hears about it 'cause they're dancing all together now. Yeah.
Em: So the city hears about all these people dancing and they're like, yo, why won't they stop? What the fuck's going on? So they literally start getting so worried that they bring in like the local doctors. And they're like, you need to go check on these people.
Christine: Yes.
Em: 'Cause like they're... I... I... I assume like, honestly at this point, the way I imagine it is that these dancers must have their eyes closed and they're just like in the zone and like ignoring people. Because if this... If the city is approaching you and now bringing in doctors, someone must have asked you, are you okay? And you're not responding.
Christine: Exactly. And why are you doing this? And like...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I imagine if you were like, I don't know, it just started happening and I'm exhausted. Like that would have taken a different... Yeah, they must be in the zone.
Em: Or if you said, nothing at all, they'd be like, I'm... Like, someone must have gone up to her and been like, girl, say something. I'm getting freaked the fuck out. Like...
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is starting to get unsettling.
Em: So she, uh... So she didn't say anything. All 400 people are apparently at least unresponsive enough that the town is worried. They bring in the doctors and the doctors are maybe helpful for the time.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But this was when people were believing in the four bodily humors.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Do you know what that is?
Christine: Yeah. A little bit like bile and...
Em: Yeah. So there's blood phlegm, yellow bile, black bile.
Christine: Oh right yes.
Em: And I did not do research on this. I'm going off of two decades ago history class, but, umm, I think they, they believed that your entire body was running off of these four humors or liquids in your body.
Christine: Mm-hmm...
Em: And if any of them were causing an imbalance then rest were fucked up.
Christine: Right.
Em: And you were... Those were causing all your illnesses. So the only way that you were healthy is if all four of your.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Bodily humors were at perfect level. And so he basically said, oh, well this is obviously a case of one of the humors being in imbalance.
Christine: And they would like do like, right, like leech.
Em: They would do leeches for certain things.
Christine: Like bloodletting and shit like that to try and get the lower.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Certain levels of... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: If they thought your blood was too high, they would have leeches literally suck blood out of you. Yeah. Umm, and so, I don't know about phlegm. I never hear about that one. I feel like that one deserves more conversation.
Christine: That's probably just like a neti pot, you know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: That's what I do to balance out my humors.
Em: Anyway, they... The doctor said, oh, well, of the bodily humors, I think this one is blood. And they... Somehow leeches were not involved, but I would've...
Christine: Can you imagine? They're just like, hold still. Everyone's like dancing.
Em: Even the leeches are kind of wriggling on the...
Christine: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, like shake it off. Shake off that damn leech. That's so gross.
Em: I... I imagine it's just Frau and a hundred leeches. And it's like SpongeBob and the jellyfish jam...
Christine: She's like got her backup choreographed dancers. Yeah. [laughter]
Em: Well, so, umm, he... They said there's abnormal levels of blood. There are obviously... Which I kind of love in the moment. Like, he was like, oh, they're just like listening to their bodies. He's like...
Christine: It's like a chemical thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: And he was like, they're clearly dancing because their bodies are telling them they need to burn off the, the excess of hot blood.
Christine: Right. Sure. That. Yep.
Em: And so, because they're listening to their bodies and they must know what they need. And it's to burn off this extra... These extra imbalances. Let 'em keep dancing. That was the doctor's orders. Let them keep dancing.
Christine: Wow. Really?
Em: And so the city goes, okay. And they literally hire a fucking stage band musicians and hype men.
Christine: No.
Em: To get people moving, moving, moving.
Christine: I didn't know that. That's Wow. What a choice. That was a choice.
Em: I like how they... Like also, again, this isn't 2024. How are you just calling pe... How are you arranging a venue set up that quickly?
Christine: Literally, it's not like you could do like Gigster, like, you know, just book like a... Book a DJ for the evening.
Em: Yeah. Like, I feel like in my mind, that requires like 17 horses, nine business days.
Christine: For... Right. Big time. You need like a raven to send a piece of paper somewhere. I...
Em: Yeah. You're only responding with like letters.
Christine: Paper.
Em: So like, how many days are going by just to like, send a letter to ask if someone can bring you a stage.
Christine: I mean I guess... I guess. Like, imagine that moment where you're like, oh God, the jesters should be here any day now... And they're just like still dancing. You're like, I mean, should we cancel? It's like, well no, they're still dancing. You know.
Em: Which like, dare I say it, a jester is the worst person to hire in this moment because.
Christine: Oh my God.
Em: Or maybe the best, if you want someone to like dance with you, hype you up.
Christine: Lean into it. Yeah.
Em: But like, if... If the jester is required to do anything else, he's gonna get lost in the sauce on this little dance excursion.
Christine: Yeah, for... Big time. He's like... He's like not made for... Cut out for this. I will say too, like, adding a band, it feels very, umm, almost like nothing to see here. We're just having a dance party.
Em: Yeah. Like esp... It had to be creepy. Just like you said, it's creepy when one person dances. It's really creepy when 400 people dance without music.
Christine: And they're not speaking.
Em: They're not speaking and the music is playing.
Christine: And they're all just like... You just hear shuffling. Oh my God. That's so scary.
Em: You just hear like... You just hear clothes kind of moving.
Christine: That's so creepy.
Em: Or like also if they've been dancing for fucking a month, they probably just hear out of breath the whole time.
Christine: They're probably like groaning Yeah.
Em: Just ugh ugh.
Christine: Yeah and in pain. And people have probably fallen over, but then they're just like, gotta keep dancing. I mean, that's gotta be so unsettling. I can't stop thinking about it. And then they're like, oh, let's just add music. 'cause that way it'll look normal. Like what?
Em: But think of how good... Like, I'm thinking back to like, you know, wolf pack mindset. Like think of how good that collective yawn must be.
Christine: Oh, everybody yawns.
Em: Hell yeah. Hell yeah.
Christine: Yeah. And then it's like, but now we gotta keep going. So.
Em: Oh, yuck. Umm, so anyway, this as predicted did the exact opposite.
Christine: Wow. Surprise, surprise.
Em: Uh because this didn't get people to stop dancing. It just encouraged them to keep dancing.
Christine: Right.
Em: And then because they did it in such a public space, other people walking by were now lured into dancing. And now more people in town have been afflicted with the the moves.
Christine: The dance bug. Yeah. The boogie bug.
Em: The jitter bug. Yeah. And so, umm, not... So that's problem one with this, is that they've now created a... Like a breeding ground for people to have this dancing problem.
Christine: Right.
Em: And problem two is that now that they've... They're now encouraging people to dance when they already haven't stopped moving for 30 fucking days. So they're dropping like flies.
Christine: I was gonna say, now you're probably just like crashing. Yeah.
Em: And it... It's not, and so I think for a moment they were like, oh, we're doing the right thing. 'Cause now they're finally stopping dancing.
Christine: Stopping.
Em: But it's like, no girl, like they're not stopping because you cured them. They're stopping because they're literally dying. Because...
Christine: Their bodies are falling. Yeah they're... Yes.
Em: It's like you killed them a little bit.
Christine: Whoopsy.
Em: So, umm...
Christine: You should have started with the leeches. Maybe that would've helped.
Em: Yeah Just get them sleepy and they'll stop maybe.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Umm, well I guess how sleepy can you be?
Christine: I was gonna say, you're probably already goddamn sleepy if you've been doing this for 30 days.
Em: Yeah. So, uh, but yeah, their... People's bodies just started giving out and people were fainting. There's rumors that some people had strokes or heart attacks.
Christine: I bet.
Em: Umm, and so at this point, now we're two months in, it's September and we started in July.
Christine: Imagine how much it has rained and like at nighttime you're still doing it. Like, this is just so freaky.
Em: Like are people... Is there... Like, is one of the jesters hired to just bring a box of sweaters around when it gets cold at night?
Christine: Yeah. Does anyone put blankets on? Does anybody, like.
Em: What's the etiquette on toilet situations? 'cause some...
Christine: Oh my God, I haven't even thought about toilet situations.
Em: Someone is pooping standing up.
Christine: They all have to be. Right? Or I guess you can dance and go on the... I don't know.
Em: And like, are you dancing over to like a specific reg... Like an area that has been deemed the poop area? Or is everyone just dancing in their poop?
Christine: Right. Like, is there that much brain... Like is there, like, how much thought process is part of this? Like are you, are you thinking like, shit, I have to go to the bathroom. Like where should I go? Or are you just like, my brain is off. I just...
Em: Are you cleaning yourself? Are you like, are you making that a dance move? You know how people have like the lawnmower.
Christine: Oh yeah, yeah. Wipe the front to back.
Em: Front to back.
Christine: Front to back, yeah...
Em: Also, even like, let's pretend that these people magically didn't have to use the bathroom. Think about still no deodorant in 1518 in July, and you're dancing for two months.
Christine: Well was gonna say... And don't... Don't forget the wool and the burlap. Yeah. It's gotta be...
Em: Oh my God. Talk about Stanky Legg, you know.
Christine: And then it... And then it adds a new layer to that. Well, and also then it rains, and then everyone's like just wet and like you're... Oh God.
Em: Everyone's just damp and full of bacteria. Yeah.
Christine: So nasty.
Em: Umm, so like I said, there's rumors that people are dying. Two different sources I... No, more than two sources I saw. Are that 15 people a day were now dying.
Christine: Jesus, okay.
Em: Which I will say, there are no official records. This is a heavily documented event, and there are no official records of an actual fatality.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: So it might just have been... Become part of the lore.
Christine: Right.
Em: But a lot of sources do say, allegedly, 15 people a day started dying when they started dropping from exhaustion.
Christine: And it's like... Yeah, and it's like maybe some people did die and they just didn't notate it. They're like, well...
Em: Right.
Christine: It's fine.
Em: Right. So now it's September. The city is like bro, this isn't working. Like, what are...
Christine: Are the musicians still playing? Are they, like, still there? 'Cause I feel like I would be pissed off. I'd be like, you better be paying me overtime.
Em: This feels like... This feels like hocus pocus when the witches put a spell on the band to play all night long. And like, they just never... They forget to stop.
Christine: Yes. To keep going.
Em: And like all the parents in town are dancing, so they're distracted from their children.
Christine: It really is like a very similar sell.
Em: I wonder if the Hocus Pocus writers took inspiration from the dancing plague.
Christine: Actually, when you said that, I was like, that's a really weird... Like, that is a very big parallel. I feel like they might have done.
Em: Uh, it, it feels accurate.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But anyway, hang on. Alison's gonna open the fridge.
Christine: Oh, good. Is she gonna get you another lime-flavored...
Em: No, she's getting herself, uh, plain water that is not sparkling.
Christine: You just said you didn't have any.
Em: That's what I thought too. Umm, so the city is like, what the hell do we do now? And this was a religious town. So they began, of course, looking towards God. What does he have to say about this?
Christine: Yeah. Somebody needs. I mean, honestly, at this point, I'd probably also be looking towards God. Like, what else are you gonna do? You've tried everything.
Em: And also, like, it's a small town in 1518. You don't have a lot of resources.
Christine: Exactly.
Em: It's not going to TikTok what's going on, you know.
Christine: Exactly. Like, it took six months for the jester to arrive. Like, you might as well ask God what's happening.
Em: Well, so they all of a sudden start getting really nervous because they fear that this dancing might actually be a punishment cast down, not just from God, but from St. Vitus.
Christine: Oh. Who the hell is that?
Em: Who... He apparently is the saint of... I don't know what the actual... Like, I feel... Some of these websites I feel like were trying to, like, get creative with the way that they said it. And now I don't know if it's actually like he's the saint of that actual thing.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Or the... But essentially of movement is what I gather.
Christine: Oh. What's his name? How do you spell it?
Em: V-I-T-U-S. And I did check the pronunciation 'cause I thought it was Vitus. Saint Vitus or Vitus.
Christine: Yeah, that would... That would be definitely Vitus. Uh, St. Vitus. Also... Also sometimes called Guido.
Em: Oh, Jersey Shore, baby.
Christine: Hey. Umm, a Christian martyr, of course. Classic.
Em: Give me a break. What else is new?
Christine: Give me a... Give me a break. Umm, well...
Em: So apparently he was from like year 303 AD. That was... That's the number I remember.
Christine: That doesn't sound right. That doesn't sound real. But yeah.
Em: But so, apparently he... I don't... I'm assuming he's the saint of movement. That's the generalization I'm going with. But they were worried...
Christine: Oh, here we go. Catholic online. Catholic.org. He's one of the 14 holy helpers and is a patron of epileptics, those afflicted with St. Vitus's dance, dancers, and actors.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So I guess movement.
Em: I didn't really... 'Cause I also saw epileptics, and I was like, is that someone being an asshole? Like, I couldn't tell. Umm, anyway. So I don't know. I got nervous. And then I also saw, umm, of, uh... I got nervous about that because another source said that he was the saint of like, uh, something... It was epileptics. One said epilepsy. One of them said nervous disorders. And then one of them said like groovy times. And I was like, I don't fucking know what to trust anymore, so. [laughter]
Christine: Yeah. Well, he's from 343. What do you think? That was like the boogie era, you know what I mean?
Em: Anyway, it really threw me for a loop. And I was like, I'm not saying any of that shit. I'm just saying movement from what I can gather. So anyway, they were worried that... They were looking at all these other things. They were looking at what the doctors had to say at the time. Nothing was working. So they looked to God. And it said that they were worried St. Vitus might be punishing them by cursing them with dance, which feels like something a leprechaun does. Umm...
Christine: It feels like something a cartoon character does. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em: But so they were afraid that he was giving them the curse of dancing mania. And because of this, uncontrollable dancing became known as the Saint Vitus dance or chorea minor because eventually the term becomes known as choreomania, which are the Greek words for dancing and madness.
Christine: Oh. Wow. And the Florence and the Machine album.
[laughter]
Em: So now they're thinking, umm, oh, fuck, like we've... We're encouraging people to dance when this was a punishment from God all along. So, like, maybe we have been accidentally casting people...
Christine: Stop the music. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. Casting people to the wrong places, doing the wrong things. So then the city does a full U-turn, and they ban all dancing and music. They say, "Stage, get out of here. Jesters, leave."
Christine: Okay. Footloose style. Yeah.
Em: Everything that we've paid you to do for the last several months...
Christine: They just arrest everyone and it's like, you just hired us to play music. It's like, well, the law changed. Now we're arresting you like, well...
Em: It's like they finally got there, and they're like tuning their guitars. And then it's like, oh, I have to leave now... Okay.
Christine: It's like, I just walked 14 days to get here, and now you're fucking sending me back without my payment. Oh my God. I would be so pissed.
Em: So, uh, they ban all music. They even... I don't... I saw this from one source, but I thought it was interesting, that they offer... They do an offering for St. Vitus, which is a 100 pound candle.
[laughter]
Christine: What? Sorry, what?
Em: Which like... Why would you even... Like, I don't want that. Umm...
Christine: Who wants that? Yeah.
Em: And how do you carry that? If it's made of wax...
Christine: First of all...
Em: Thinking your fingernails by the end, it's gonna have just scratch marks everywhere.
Christine: Changed opinion. I do want that, but I don't want the hassle of that. Like, I... I would love a candle that just never ends 'cause you know, I just feel wasteful when I throw away the glass part. But someone has to carry it for me. I'm not gonna lug that thing.
Em: And that's not a... That's not a candlestick situation. That's leaving it on the dirty concrete, you know.
Christine: It's gonna be a huge pillar, just like roll it down the gravel. Yeah.
Em: It... It had to have rolled. It had rolled.
Christine: It had to have rolled. Yeah.
Em: Ugh. So then when it gets there, it's just got sand in it. Ugh. Nevermind.
Christine: Ugh, so dirty.
Em: Anyway, so they offer a hundred pound candle, and they take the people who are still dancing uncontrollably up to a mountaintop.
Christine: They take them?
Em: They take them to a mount... Yeah, I guess so they either were like, conga line. Let's...
Christine: They were like, the candle's rolling everybody. Come on. [laughter] Follow along. Yeah, you're right. Conga line. They're like, oh, we have a new dance. Everybody follow me.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And this was the beginning of the Conga dance. Umm.
Christine: Beautiful Saint Conga of Esuphius.
Em: So, uh, they basically take them up to this mountaintop where they've built a shrine for St. Vitus, and they have all the people dancing feet. They pray over them and they perform exorcisms on them.
Christine: Oh, God. Okay.
Em: And they make them hold little crosses and wear red shoes.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Umm, which...
Christine: Red shoes?
Em: Apparently that represents St. Vitus and his burning feet.
Christine: Oh. That's cute. That's great.
Em: It's precious.
Christine: That's really great.
Em: However, I have two other fun facts for you about the red shoes. Is that one source mentioned that the red shoes part might've come later, like become part of the lore because of Hans Christian Anderson's fairytale, the red shoes.
Christine: Oh, well, that would fit. Yeah.
Em: Which is when someone had the... Had red shoes put on them and the red shoes forced them to dance until they like reached insanity and then they hacked their own feet off to stop the dancing because it was so torturous.
Christine: Oh my God. And then they were like, well, that's a fun story. And also St Vitus's feet were really hot, so I guess we could combine them.
Em: And then the other thing, uh, about the red shoes, which I... I wish I did more research on this before I kind of blurted out. But, umm, the second reason why red shoes might be getting mentioned here is because one of the other dancing plagues that happened in history, actually it was very odd, but apparently the group of people who were dancing also would attack people who were wearing in fashion clothing.
Christine: What?
Em: That was like one of the symptoms, is that they would attack people who were like dressing fashionable. And so because of that, the city banned production on in vogue shoes, which happened to be red shoes at the time.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And so one of the other dancing plague stories that are out there is that the, the town had to stop production of red shoes because people were attacking people wearing red shoes.
Christine: That feels like the neighbor got attacked for doing something assholey and was like, they're just jealous of my new red shoes. And it's like, Hmm. I don't think Frau is jealous of your new red shoes. She has a...
Em: Like, what a fashionista. It's like, you're just using this as a way to attack me for my clothes.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: You just...
Christine: Ugh, God. Like...
Em: Peasant.
Christine: You're just so jealous of me.
Em: Umm, so anyway, after the experience on the mountaintop where they have these... This exorcism maybe or not, they're wearing red shoes, the dancing did slowly end.
Christine: Okay. Wow. It feels so anticlimactic to say it like slowly ended.
Em: I know. I... Well, I think they only took like the craziest dancers up there and then once they were now tamed, the spell kind of broke from everybody else too. Umm, but to this day, nobody knows what actually caused this event. Umm.
Christine: It's cra... That's cra... That's the craziest thing to me. Like I knew that part that we don't really know, but like, it just blows my mind every time.
Em: One reason, uh... Sorry, everybody who's YouTubing right now with like the light being kind of crazy, but whatever. Umm, one reason it was that that... That this could have come from at least like, the main theory for a while was that they must have been, umm, uh, taking... Not taking an herb, but they were poisoned by this stuff called...
Christine: Ergot.
Em: Ergot. Yeah. Which is a fungus that comes out of rye flour. And so they thought maybe that's what's going on here. Like maybe they just had really bad bread because...
Christine: Who knows if there's a bad batch that like infected people. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. And I guess ergot, it has the, umm, uh, the symptoms if you have ergot poisoning is like convulsions and spasms and vertigo.
Christine: It's like, is it a... I'm not sure if this's true. Is it like a psycho... Like does it have psychotropic effect... Like psychoactive effects?
Em: Some of its very key components are the LS of LSD.
[laughter]
Christine: Okay. Yeah. Okay. That answers that. [laughter] Thanks [laughter]
Em: And so, uh, they were like, well, maybe they're just hallucinating and they're just like in this crazy like space where they're just like moving around and convulsing and it looks like they're dancing. But people also, at least in today's world, are like, that can't be right. Because first of all, we're ignoring the fact that it has several other symptoms that nobody experienced.
Christine: Yeah. Fair point.
Em: Like, like gangrene and like burning sensations and, uh, death and maybe people died, but maybe they didn't. And if they did, it was after two months of dancing and over exhaustion, not because they actually took this poison.
Christine: Right. Fair. Okay.
Em: Umm, also people from... Uh, all, or I guess, uh, the... The one of the arguments is that a lot of the people who have dealt with this, not just in this dancing plague, but in all dancing plagues, it was assumed for a while that ergot poisoning was the reason for all of it.
Christine: Right.
Em: But if all these people from different places with different types of vegetation and crops and soil and stuff, if all of them were having this problem, like ergot doesn't exist in all of those spaces.
Christine: It doesn't explain it. Right. Okay.
Em: On top of that, how are all of these people only experiencing one symptom?
Christine: That's what's gonna be weird. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.
Em: Also, if you like have ergot poisoning and you don't die, it's gonna go away in a few days, not two months later.
Christine: Okay. So it is not like, oh, you're afflicted for months. It's like, it's supposed to be just a brief food poisoning.
Em: No, it's like... It's like an LSD high. It's like you're tripping. And then...
Christine: Oh. I see. You're tripping. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. I see.
Em: And, uh... And then on top of that, it's like, well, even if one of the side effects was dancing or something, like, you would literally be so exhausted eventually that like, whether or not you were tripping balls, you would just end up lying down on the floor and keep tripping and then...
Christine: And also tripping... Yeah. Having a trip like, I get that, it's like, oh, well you're doing something and then everyone else is doing it, so you're kind of leaning... But you're right. Like that wouldn't explain like nobody can stop them. Like it just still doesn't quite fit. I... I agree.
Em: Umm. Well...
Christine: All... My science... My... I have a science background. With all my knowledge, I agree.
Em: Well, one of the other reasons why it's assumed that... I mean, it is a good guess for the time of like, oh, you're clearly poisoned by a toxin.
Christine: I always... Yeah. I always thought that was real until recently when I learned it wasn't the right...
Em: One of the other reasons that people assume that ergot poisoning is related to this is because it was also one of the easy throwaway explanations for the women of the Salem witch trials.
Christine: Oh.
Em: And so it gets conflated as witchcraft, because this feels like witchcraft.
Christine: Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Em: Umm, so then people were like, okay, maybe it's not ergot poisoning. Maybe this is like a spider bite, or this is, umm, some other drug poisoning. There's belladonnas, I think is the type of drug poisoning that people thought...
Christine: Oh.
Em: They... Apparently the symptoms add up a lot more than...
Christine: Oh, I've never even heard of that.
Em: Than ergot poisoning. But then for the same reasons, people were like, it can't be that because like, you're not gonna experience this for fucking two months. And like...
Christine: Yeah. Yeah.
Em: And then only prayer gets you back. Umm, so then a spider bite, people thought that that was a legit reason, but...
Christine: Well Like, everyone got bit by the same spiders?
Em: Exactly.
Christine: Okay.
Em: So then that was why people danced.
Christine: Understood.
Em: It's like not everyone has been bitten by the same tarantula. And then so you become a Spiderman, you're a fucking lord of the dance. So, umm, similar...
Christine: That's Leona. Wobble baby. Wobble baby. It's righty. You know. Yeah.
Em: She is the wobble baby, which...
Christine: Yeah. She's the wobble baby.
Em: And this feels like, I know this is... Was supposed to mean like, celebration for our 400th, but it does also weirdly apply to your birthday girl of being the wobble baby. Let's talk about dancing.
Christine: It weirdly does. I hadn't really put it together until this very moment, but yes it does fit.
Em: Say it. You know, you know what I want you to say. Say it, say it.
Christine: It's, uh, a double entendre.
Em: Aaah. Umm. So anyway...
Christine: We've got everything. We've got everything. We've got elevator music, we've got dog barking in background. We've got everything from episode one. That has not changed.
Em: Perfect. I like... I... Mwah. Mwah, mwah, mwah.
Christine: Just can't get any better than this or any different, or any... Yeah.
Em: Well, so similar manias, like I said, have... Have taken place, but the 1518 event was the most thoroughly documented one. And, uh, otherwise the best known one was in 1374, where many dancers had the same affliction of having this, this plague go on. And they believed a demon was in them. So they attempted to control their convulsions by like binding and beating themselves.
Christine: GASP. Oh, so they were trying to stop themselves?
Em: Yeah, they were...
Christine: Oh, interesting.
Em: More aware. It seems, quote.
Christine: It felt like the first people weren't really like that involved... Involved in their own... Interesting.
Em: Yeah. They feel like zombies in some way. And this...
Christine: Yes. Yeah.
Em: And this one, I think they were like...
Christine: Weird.
Em: Fuck, actively trying to fight this. But then they were also not only dancing, but they apparently had an orgy that resulted in like over a hundred conceptions.
Christine: What?
Em: So they're doing like a different type of dance. Umm, plus...
Christine: Saint Vitus is like, I do not approve of this. How much clearer can I get? Bring me my candle.
Em: Well, said. Uh, and the jesters are just like having a... Just hyping them up while they're all...
Christine: Like, oh yeah, I'm into this.
[laughter]
Em: Well weirdly, oh, this was... These were the ones. That they were attacking people with fashionable clothes and they had to ban production of in vogue shoes.
Christine: Ah, oh my God.
Em: So the dancers were dragged to a church where they were, I mean, wildly tortured to expel the demons from them.
Christine: Imagine. You're already getting tortured by like, uncontrollable... Like not having control of your body.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And then someone is like, I'll punish you for that. And it's like, I don't wanna be doing it either. Like that...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: It feels extra bad.
Em: And if they were having an orgy, there is a whole conversation about consent on like, if you are...
Christine: Great point.
Em: How in control are you? And like...
Christine: If you can't control your dancing. Right. Good point, Em. I hadn't even thought of that. Oh, that's so sinister. Okay.
Em: So, umm, so anyway, I only bring up that one because that's the other most popular one that people refer to when they're talking about dancing plagues.
Christine: Okay.
Em: But. All dancing plagues ended around the same time as the Middle Ages. And I don't know if those have anything to do with each other religiously or something like that.
Christine: Right.
Em: Or maybe there was a new medical explanation for it. But historical documents from various sources confirmed this. There's literal doctor's notes because people could go to work 'cause they were dancing. There was church sermons, notes from the city council, maybe a letter to a, a stage provider. I don't know.
Christine: [laughter] A letter to... A letter to the local DJ. Yeah.
Em: [laughter] But it was even documented in both Latin and high German.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: And I think his name's Paracelsus, right?
Christine: I don't know.
Em: Because I... In my mind, I wanna say like Paraklesis or some shit like that, but Paracelsus.
Christine: I don't know. I think you're right.
Em: Like for Celsius. Right? Because he, he was involved in chemistry. I.
Christine: I don't... I have no idea that that sounds... Listen, I don't know.
Em: I think Paracelsus.
Christine: Paracelsus just sounds right.
Em: Okay.
Christine: I've heard of that before.
Em: Well, so he even wrote about this with his own theories. And what's so interesting is he went to the town eight years after this event happened. And so a lot of the people who were a part of it were still there to like, give their own stories.
Christine: GASP. So he did... Oh, cool. So he could actually like...
Em: Like documented it.
Christine: Check. In and see what was going on. Okay. Okay. That's good. Go to the source.
Em: And so... I was like, Oh, I can't wait to hear what he has to say. First thing he had to say was that Frau was just a rebellious instigator and wanted to embarrass her husband.
Christine: Hey you leave Frau alone, you asshole.
Em: He also said the other people most likely were... And he said the other people most likely to have been infected with this dancing plague were the scoundrels and hoes of the town because they were embracing bodily pleasure.
Christine: Hello.
Em: Harlot. I told you.
Christine: Huh.
Em: But the rest of his theories actually were kind of of their time. They were on the right track. He was like, I don't think this has anything to do with religion. He was definitely leaning more towards the bodily humors thing, but then... [laughter]
Christine: Okay.
Em: Maybe at the time it sounded okay, but today it sounds so wackadoo. He was like, obviously their laughing veins were being tickled.
[laughter]
Christine: I mean, to be fair, we have something called a funny bone, which really isn't anything that it sounds like, but yes, that is honestly sounds absolutely outrageously stupid.
Em: He was like, oh, their laughing veins are being tickled and so it's causing...
Christine: Imagine writing that in a high German medical text. You're like, this is the tickle vein. I mean, come on.
Em: Apparently when that happens, it elevates the levels of your bodily humors and it clouds your judgment. So...
Christine: Yeah. That's... That's true. I have experienced that. Yeah.
Em: Mm-hmm. Umm, and then the part that people do take more seriously is he was one of the very first people to say that these symptoms were all an imagined mass hysteria.
Christine: Okay. That... Okay. So that's an... The fear like, right? Is that the other big theory?
Em: That's today's big theory.
Christine: Got it. Okay.
Em: Umm, the official term these days is an MPI or mass psychogenic illness.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And this is, umm, the main belief today that everybody just had a stress induced breakdown. Umm, because at the time, Strasbourg was really going through it, they had... This is just a quote, 'cause I didn't even wanna mess it up. Reformation, counter reformation, the 30 years war, population growth that they couldn't control, increased poverty, social unrest, bad harvests, the worst floods of the century, famine, sickness, leprosy, plague, syphilis, the English sweat, which I don't even wanna know.
Christine: Oh, that's Episode 450. Yeah.
Em: Uh, the plague. And were recovering from a small ice age. So...
Christine: The plague and an ice age are the last two, just to top off.
Em: And so, umm...
Christine: Holy shit. We have COVID and we're still all reeling. Imagine like...
Em: I know.
Christine: I mean, I guess we do have pretty much all of those bad things happening still, but Wow. Imagine just being like, I guess we dance.
Em: Well, keep... Keep that... Keep that thought, because that's my very last bullet point of these notes, which we're coming up on.
Christine: Whoo.
Em: But, so they were fucking going through it. And like in today's world, in 2024, I feel like, I don't even feel like, I know with confidence, we on a daily basis are dealing with so much more shit than they ever did.
Christine: The stressors. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Em: I saw recently, I don't know how true it is, but I saw, umm, some video saying that we deal with more overstimulation in one day than a lot of people back then did in their entire lifetimes.
Christine: I've... I've heard similar, uh, statistics. Yes.
Em: So imagine not being able to tolerate so much shit getting thrown at you like we are and you have to deal with all those things in 1518.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Like you... Your brain's gonna snap in half. So, umm, on top of all those bad things happening in that moment or in that time period, these were all religious people that thought that they must not be doing good enough, or God must be punishing them because they're so sinful...
Christine: Oh gosh.
Em: Otherwise, all these things wouldn't be happening to them. So they're now internalizing it and blaming all these things on themselves.
Christine: Right now there's shame and guilt and... Oh God. Okay.
Em: So there was an anthropologist named Erika Bourguignon who, uh, came up with this concept... I don't know if she came up with the concept, but she talked about it and was mentioned in quite a few sources about the environment of belief. Which was essentially the idea that, umm... Uh, the power of suggestion that if you live in a world that everyone is talking about, the spirit world and God casting sin upon you or because of your sin, casting punishment upon you, you're going to absorb that because your community is feeding it in your... It's essentially just a group think. That all of you think this way, and because God would punish you, you're now more susceptible to believing that you deserve to be possessed or something like that. And...
Christine: Right, right, right.
Em: It's kind of like speaking in tongues where like a lot of people...
Christine: Oh.
Em: In church, like because you're surrounded by one person who speaks in tongues, who really is like committing to the bit, then like all of a sudden you're also speaking in tongues and...
Christine: Yeah. It almost like catch... It's like contagious almost. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. And so that's... I... I'm, I'm butchering the explanation, but it's essentially the same concept as speaking in tongues, is that they saw Frau dancing and it just kind of built from that.
Christine: What do they call it? Like religious, umm, ecstasy, I think they call it. Like, they would say like, oh, religious ecstasy, when... When say like a nun would have like these really crazy visions and be like, oh my God, God... Uh, because they get so... I... I... I don't really know. Talk about butchering it, but like the idea that like, you get so overcome with this like, religious, uh, thing that like physical... You have a physical reaction and they thought the Holy Spirit was involved. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's the, the same, I guess maybe ecstasy if they were enjoying the dancing at first.
Christine: I guess I was gonna say maybe that's just for good stuff. I don't know.
Em: Uh, but essentially they were more susceptible to thinking that God or St. Vitus would punish them and so they leaned into that and maybe she just honestly just felt like dancing one day, but then it just felt like she couldn't stop or felt like she was being moved or that...
Christine: Yeah.
Em: God was speaking to her and therefore maybe she thought if she stopped, she would be... She... Maybe she couldn't stop, maybe she thought she couldn't stop 'cause there was a curse.
Christine: Like maybe it got... It spiraled in her head out of control. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. They believed that they could be possessed. And so they were. So it's just, umm, like I said, the power of suggestion.
Christine: Yes.
Em: So when people saw Frau dancing uncontrollably, all of them kind of fell... Fell in line. And then the town literally brought in a stage of musicians accidentally enabling others to become possessed.
Christine: They... Right. Encouraging it. Yes.
Em: Especially because in a world of like... I mean, I did not come from a religious background, but, umm, I have met pious people in my life. And if you see one person who was being moved by God in a way you're not, maybe you feel compelled to match that energy.
Christine: Right.
Em: And so... And if no one else is stopping, all of a sudden you can't back out.
Christine: It's almost like power of suggestion. You know, it's like, oh, I guess I feel that too. You know.
Em: When... There's actually a, a quote from one sociologist who said, when you have the right beliefs and high levels of despair and fear, then the dancing plague becomes possible. And for the most part, choreomania was a disease of the overburdened, overworked, and overstressed masses.
Christine: Wow.
Em: So in this way, the dancing mania, or the Dancing Plague of 1518 underscores the power of cultural context on group think, where all of you just accidentally feed off of each other.
Christine: Group think. Whoa.
Em: Umm, so there's a lot of articles, like honestly of the Dancing Plague. I... Let's say I looked at 20 sources. I would say 80% of what I was reading was people trying to analyze the psychology behind group think and dancing mania.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Like the story itself was such a small bit of every article.
Christine: Oh, interesting. Okay.
Em: And everyone was just talking about like, what it means to be in a community where you could fall...
Christine: Right.
Em: Fall into that. Umm, but a lot of people say that the, the dancing, especially, especially for the overburdened, overworked and overstressed, that dancing was just a form of escapism that they justified as religion. Umm, and then they, they believed it so much that they couldn't stop themselves by the end. So...
Christine: Escapism sounds kind of, umm, victim blamey, I don't know the right word. Like, I don't know. Maybe not.
Em: I think it was a way for them to be moving around and doing something. And they, I... I mean, I think of it as like, when religious people say that they feel moved to do something, I don't even think they... I think...
Christine: I see.
Em: They really believed that they were being moved by God.
Christine: I see. It wasn't like agency necessarily. Okay. I got it. I got it. I got it.
Em: But, interesting that you mentioned that, or have a note on it 'cause you also mentioned TikTok earlier, and one of the sources I saw was talking about this dancing plague and it, they only mentioned it like a few months ago, or they only wrote about this a few months ago. And I thought it was so interesting. I don't know how true it is, but it's certainly something that could be talked about at a dinner party if you need a topic.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Umm, it was really interesting that they compared that town of Strasbourg in 1518 going through all that fucking upheaval. And they were so fucking stressed out of their minds that they just kind of snapped. And one person started dancing and like found a, a, a name for it and called it God.
Christine: Oh, yes. Yes.
Em: And then compared it to 2020, everyone going through the fucking pandemic and losing their minds. And people found this dance app called TikTok...
Christine: GASP.
Em: And like, why on earth would anybody give a shit about a dance app? Like, like TikTok only got big because everyone was kind of...
Christine: Because of musically. Everybody was doing copy dances and choreographed dances.
Em: And so...
Christine: Holy shit, Em. That just blew my mind a little bit.
Em: They thought it... It was a very interesting note. I don't know how true or like accurate it is.
Christine: It's like... It is an interesting... Even if they're not really related, like they're correlated, like that's a really interesting comparison. Yeah.
Em: But dancing on TikTok might have been today's version of a collective escapism during the pandemic, which is how we got TikTok today.
Christine: Ooh. And then everyone's obsession with sourdough bread. Maybe there was like a ergot poisoning going on.
Em: That baker. Yeah. Oh yeah. Anyway, so that's the Dancing Plague of 1518.
Christine: Em, I just got goosecam at the end of your story, like the last line of your story. That's wow.
Em: Well, it was... You said TikTok and I went, I'm so glad you said that. 'Cause I not know how to segue into this.
Christine: I think I said TikTok about the pasta psychics, so I think I was clearly not on the right page, but I am glad that you used me as a jumping off point 'cause umm...
Em: Perfect.
Christine: It was not intentional. Wow. And that was really good. That was...
Em: Thank you.
Christine: Like the perfect, 'cause I remember when you said, let's plan something fun for 400 and I was like, I don't even know how to begin to plan something for 400. Like, it's so random. But for some reason the dancing plague feels like the only correct choice.
Em: If I didn't come back, like yesterday, basically from our last leg of the tour, I had...
Christine: Yes.
Em: I had plans to do a whole thing, but, you know just thought...
Christine: Yeah. The pasta psychic. I heard all about it.
Em: Well, the pasta psychic, but also like, I had a, a banner that's now coming in tomorrow and I, but I... I was gonna...
Christine: The banner. Yeah. The sad banner that's coming in after we record 400.
Em: I was gonna decorate and it was, you know, gonna be fun, but...
Christine: You put my 75th birthday banner up. That was really thoughtful.
Em: I'm so glad. Okay. So if I miss your actual 75th now, I've beat you to it.
Christine: Oh, perfect. If you're already dead by then or something...
Em: Woohoo.
Christine: Then, umm, then I'll know the banner's there somewhere in spirit. Well Em, I was not sure until yesterday what topic I was gonna do because, umm, I had plans and then when we kind of had to move things around, I was like, well, I'm gonna totally redo this in my mind. And for 400 I'm gonna skip the usual just normal notes. And I'm gonna do something that, umm, I do occasionally, which is cover a chapter from our book, a story that...
Em: Oooh.
Christine: I wrote about in the book. And the reason that I feel like this is a good fit is that for 400, we just released our second book. This is today as we record this marks, umm, one week of it being out in the world, our little, little baby. And, uh, I thought, what story should I read? I skimmed through it and I found the gayest story I could find, or one of the gayest.
Em: Oh, my. Oh.
Christine: And I thought 400, why not just share like a gay love story gone wrong? You know.
Em: Haha. Sure. I love that.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Also, umm...
Christine: It fits right, the theme. Just tell me yes.
Em: Yes. Also uh-huh, it's a gay old time over here. See.
Christine: It sure is.
Em: Umm, also, this is one of those things where I was saying, reflecting back on 400 episodes, never thought that 400 weeks after we started episode 1, we would have two books.
Christine: Oh my God. 400 weeks. See now that's where my brain goes. Oh, I never thought about it like that.
Em: It also scares you. It's like think of how much can happen in 400 weeks.
Christine: That's so scary, 'cause a lot has happened, including COVID.
[laughter]
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And the rise of TikTok. It's been an eventful four weeks.
Em: My entire relationship with Allison has been 400 weeks.
Christine: Oh, for God's sake, you're right. It's been... It's been a doozy. I'm glad we're still going. 'Cause if we ended right now, I think I'd be in a tailspin for the rest of my life. Like, what was that? 400 weeks? But instead, let's just stay in kind of like the dancers. Let's just stay in it and not try to escape and understand it. Let's just stay in the... In the moment.
Em: Sure. Sure.
Christine: This is the story of Alice and Freda, and it's based in Memphis, Tennessee, or at least that was the chapter that I wrote... Wrote it in. Umm, it's based around the Memphis area. And I of course pulled the actual chapter with Em's asides in it, umm, to make sure I get all to... You know, what I like to do, is that I like to tell the story, and then I like to see if you respond with the same...
Em: Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. Is... Does Michelle make an appearance again?
[laughter]
Christine: Who's Michelle? Oh. I thought you meant Michael's, the craft store. I was like, I mean, maybe.
[laughter]
Em: Okay. But if I mention Michael's in this story, that would be just a... Mwah.
Christine: Oh my God. I was like, Michelle, what? Okay. Uh, yeah, Michelle might come back. I don't know. Listen. She made a prominent appearance last time, so, uh...
Em: She sure did. I don't think, umm... I hope she doesn't know about that. I don't know if it ever got back to her.
Christine: We just kept talking about it, is the thing. Umm...
Em: I mean, whatever. It's too late. There's nothing that...
Christine: Too late now.
Em: Nothing I can do.
Christine: This is the story of Alice and Freda. Now, like I said, this is a very gay story, but it's also from the 19th century. So it is an old, as you said, a gay old time. Umm, gay, old time. What song is that?
Em: The Flintstones.
Christine: Oh, yeah. So born in 1872, Alice Mitchell, as I put in the book, with little squiggles, wasn't like other girls. Okay.
Em: She never is.
Christine: She never is. And I've always said that. Umm, while her sisters busy themselves with the usual girly stuff, dolls, boys, etcetera, Alice was distant and even dismissive of any young men who approached her.
Em: You go girl.
Christine: You wrote, "Same girl." Very close though. Good job.
Em: Oh.
Christine: Uh, as a teenager, Alice went, uh, to a school, she was sent away to a school because she was kind of like from that upper echelon of society. And I wrote here that it sounds like a fictional place. It's called the Higbee School for Young Ladies.
Em: It does sound like that for sure.
Christine: Doesn't it sound like a fake place? Like Ms. Higbee is running it and she's gonna...
Em: It sounds like something I'm... Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Cartoons.
Christine: What's Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, cartoons?
Em: Christine Schiefer.
Christine: Am I okay?
Em: From like, before car... Like, like cartoons?
Christine: Oh.
Em: Like a cartoon. Like a show.
Christine: I don't think I've... What is Oh, yeah about?
Em: It's a show.
Christine: Am I okay? That's a show. I feel like I'm having a stroke. I don't know what's happening. Umm...
Em: It was, uh, it's where like all of the cartoons on Cartoon Network got their start. Like Fairly Odd Parents, which I guess Nickelodeon, like it started over there.
Christine: Is that a channel?
Em: It's a show. It's a show called...
Christine: It's a show? But why?
Em: It's a... It's a show called Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Cartoons.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: And then they would do little... In hindsight, I'm guessing it's like people would do shorts that got submitted there.
Christine: Oh. And then you... They would like sometimes branch into their own show. Okay. I understand.
Em: And then like... It was like a, a a chance for them to test market the, the shorts to see if they deserve their own series.
Christine: Yeah. I feel like I never...
Em: Remember like... You don't remember, oh, like Fairly Odd Parents and Cosmo had a really deep voice?
Christine: No.
Em: That was Oh, yeah, yeah. Cartoons.
Christine: Like maybe if I watched it, but I don't have a memory of that. Like, I remember all the Nickelodeon shows, but I don't remember. Oh, yeah. Was that on Nickelodeon?
Em: I think it was on Cartoon Network.
Christine: Oh.
Em: This was, uh, something for many of you to probably go, uh, binge later today.
Christine: Oh, it was Nickelodeon. Okay. It was part of their Nickelodeon animation studio, uh, hosted by a variety of school children. That's nice. Umm. Some really weird...
Em: Mrs. Higbee's children.
Christine: Ms. Higbee's children all lined up, uh, in a straight line.
Em: During recess they would host Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Cartoons.
Christine: And she would walk around with her little... Little switch and cane.
Em: A ruler, girl.
Christine: A ruler. Yeah. There you go. Uh, okay, sorry. Umm, anyway, let's get back to this. So...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I clearly am a bad millennial, I guess, but, umm, we're gonna go back to the Higbee School For Young Ladies in Memphis. And this is where Alice crossed paths with fellow student Freda Ward. And, uh, Freda and Alice hit it off right away. Umm, I thought this was kind of cute. She called... Alice called Freda, Fred, like, as a nickname, which I thought was pretty adorable.
Em: That's precious.
Christine: Umm, they were very physically affectionate with one another. Like they were BFFs, but also they would publicly hold hands, hug, kiss. And the wildest part to me about this is that that was completely normal back then for girls to do. Like they called it, they call... There's a name for it. I'm wondering if you remember the name for it. There's a certain word they used for girls, uh, kind of having these, umm, like physical affectionate relationships.
Em: Being gay. No, I don't know.
Christine: Oh, certainly not. That meant happy back then.
Em: No. I... I... I really, I don't know what.
Christine: It was called chumming.
Em: No, I did not know that.
Christine: Yeah. And chumming to me, I always thought, especially when we were talking about the south, like, it's like, isn't that how you do catch like catfish or something? Like, I... I was like, isn't that like a fishing...
Em: Yeah. The chum bucket.
Christine: Oh, chum bucket. Yeah. So I thought like, isn't that like a, a fishing term? But I guess...
Em: Well also, I always heard why so glum, chum. And now I'm like, oh, why in the closet lesbian. That's what it sounds like.
Christine: Same difference. Basically translation.
Em: No, I'm just kidding. But no, I... I always heard it as like, chum as in yeah, something with like...
Christine: I think it's like a...
Em: Seafood.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And then, umm, or not... Or maybe not seafood, but something of the the sea.
Christine: It's like fish guts, I think. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. And then, umm, or I always heard it as like a, like a friendly thing. Like Oh, my chummy.
Christine: Well, like chummy. And I think that's why they say it like, oh, you're just... It's just between friends. It's not like anything.
Em: Oh.
Christine: Because the reason they said that this was okay is because it was considered practice, youthful practice for their future heterosexual marriages.
Em: I literally ought to die. Are you kidding me?
Christine: I ought to die. Like what? You just like make out with your girlfriends to practice. Okay, sure. I guess. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Em: But I do... I do know quite a few older women because of, of course, as soon as you come out of the closet, they're all like, oh, we've all had a moment like that.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah.
Em: And then like, they're telling on themselves and don't realize it.
Christine: And it's like oh, we're just experimenting or, you know, a phase.
Em: I... Won't say who, but somebody older than me was like, oh yeah. I used to make out with all my... My girl best friends all the time.
Christine: Oh my.
Em: And it was just practice for when we had boyfriends. And I'm like, okay girl. Okay.
Christine: Well, was it Alice or Fred? 'Cause that feels very on brand. 'Cause that is exactly what they did.
Em: I... I will say, umm, I'm very jealous of the people who got to be more affectionate with girls in high school.
Christine: I know, right? It's like you should have just pretended you were practicing for the straight time.
Em: I was like, I'm just getting chummy for all the men.
Christine: I'm chumming it, man. For all the men I'm gonna make out with. Oh God, help me.
Em: Mmh. And then I would just be like, oh, I'm 32 but I'm still practicing. You know.
Christine: I'm so sorry. I just have a lot of work to do. It's just like...
Em: Allison and I are just still practicing, just holding hands and kissing, you know?
Christine: Oh, it's really hard work. You know? Umm, and so they called it chumming, right? And to the outside world, it was like, okay, well they're just chumming it. But actually, as we can probably all guess, behind the scenes, it was a lot more than just chumming.
Em: Sure.
Christine: Umm, when Freda's family relocated to a town called Golddust, Tennessee, they would visit, visit each other for weeks at a time and share a bed and just be... I mean, clearly they were in a relationship, like whether this was a friendship, quote unquote, or like romantic, it definitely turned into a more romantic.
Em: Yeah. It could have... I imagine it could have started as two people not...
Christine: As just friends.
Em: 'Cause if it really was normal for the time, like, I mean, I guess culturally...
Christine: How else would you think... Yeah, exactly. It would just kinda lead to that.
Em: Like maybe they really were just practicing for their boyfriends and they realized they were really... They actually...
Christine: They were like, nevermind. I...
Em: They wanted to stay where they were. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. Exactly. And so that's kind of what it seemed like. Umm, the only problem was Alice kind of, umm, got a little, let's just say she was in too deep. She, yeah, started developing...
Em: Stage five, clinger.
Christine: Stage five... Oh my God. Stage six clinger almost practically. Not to put too fine a point on it, but she was getting obsessive about Freda and basically her relationship with Freda became all consuming. It's all she cared about. All she thought about. The problem was, Freda felt a little differently. Freda was still kind of like, "Listen, I'm exploring. I really like you. I have deep feelings for you." But she attract... Or she was also attracted to two young men.
Em: Mmh.
Christine: So, she was clearly kind of like, I'm figuring it out, man. Like, I don't know, you know, don't make me commit to this huge.
Em: Don't put me in a box. You know.
Christine: Don't put in a box Alice. [laughter] And so Freda admitted this to Alice, and Alice had like a, a menty b about it, about like her, like.
Em: She could have started dancing in that exact moment.
Christine: She may have gotten or got poisoning that very day because she freaked the F out. And she became extremely jealous, extremely possessive, was like no one else can have you. And in a desperate bid to keep Freda all to herself, she proposed this wild idea, especially for the time. She said, how... Alice said, "How about I disguise myself as a man? I'm gonna change my name to Alvin and I'm gonna marry you. Then we're gonna move to St. Louis as husband and wife." With Alice, finding employment to support them. I guess still pretending to be a man. Freda perhaps overwhelmed by this like sudden like, let's run away and get married and whatever...
Em: Lifelong plans.
Christine: Yes, exactly. Lifelong like marital plans, umm, in like middle school, high school age was like, okay. And kind of agreed, but most sources say like, she was just kind of going along with it. 'Cause she was a little bit overwhelmed. And, umm, so she said, okay, sure, whatever. And unfortunately... Well, maybe fortunately the girl's plot was foiled when Freda's protective older sister who'd been keeping an eye on things, found letters between her and Alice. And the letters said, "Hey, we're running away together. And... " You know, basically her older sister put a stop to it, put her foot down, said absolutely not. Umm, and basically said, you're not... You're not to see Alice anymore. And this of course sent Alice into an even bigger tailspin.
Em: A full spiral. Yeah.
Christine: And by the way, you put a little, umm, aside here, you, you, your banter says, family finding out before you're ready, it's a cannon event. We can't interfere. [laughter] And I thought that was a really lovely.
Em: I have always said that.
Christine: Because the older sister read her fucking mail. Like, don't do that. You know, I mean, I know you're trying to protect her, but geez.
Em: I can't tell you. I... I know exactly the oh oh, feeling that she felt when she realized her sister was, uh, in, in the know.
Christine: Yeah, that's gotta be rough. Umm, and so the following winter, Freda and her family visited Memphis. And of course Alice who was in Memphis was like, oh my God, this is my chance to win Fred back. And so totally desperate. She tried to get Freda to run away with her. She's like, you're coming here for a... For a few weeks. This is our moment. Let's run away. Remember you agreed to it. I mean, it's like that kind of... It like is a little sad and cringey, you know? It's like.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: The girls... The other girls kind of like, listen, I'm... That was a different time. I was just agreeing to it to.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Like to break... Try, try to break it easy, but it's just not gonna work. So Freda was like, no, I'm sorry. I'm just really not interested. I've moved on. And Alice really lost it. She fell into a profound deep depression. She stopped eating, she stopped sleeping. She only stayed in her room. Her days were consumed by thoughts of Freda. It's all she could think about. She reread their letters, she stared at her picture for hours. And most concerning of all, she started calling herself Freda.
Em: Oh my.
Christine: Oh my.
Em: That's some literal Norman Bates shit. Oh my God.
[laughter]
Christine: Yeah. It's starting to get a little too unhinged for my liking. Umm, she would take Freda's identity on every now and then, and she would sign receipts and letters as Freda Ward just for fun. Like not for a reason either, which is a little weird. Like.
Em: Ha ha.
Christine: If you ha... Yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, like for what reason? Just 'cause she's on your mind. I don't know. It's just very strange.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Umm, and so on top of that, as if that weren't enough, Alice, uh, developed a new hobby and that was taking her best friend Lily on buggy rides to downtown Memphis. But Lily, who thought they were just going on fun little girl adventures, uh, didn't realize that Alice was just [laughter] doing this to borrow Lily's buggy and spy on her Freda. [laughter] Like basically was like, I need your car so we could go spy on my girlfriend.
Em: She's just one of those messy people. Like.
Christine: Just some messy girl.
Em: I'm using you for your car so I can spy on my girl.
Christine: Yeah, but I'm gonna pretend we're best friends 'cause it's easier that way. And you'll do what I say.
Em: So, how did Lily... I can't wait to find out how Lily found out.
Christine: Oh, she found out, uh, in the worst way. So basically they're just going on and I imagine Lily's there, like, and then I got this new bonnet with lace trim.
Em: Poor girl [laughter]
Christine: And Alice is like hunting down Freda in the streets. Like...
Em: Alice is like, shut the fuck up, Lily. I don't care.
Christine: I... Like Lily. I swear to God how many times I don't care about your bonnet. [laughter] Umm, so super embarrassing. Then on January 25th, 1892, Alice took their... Her family buggy to go pick up Lily for one of their excursions, uh, out on the town. And they aimlessly roamed around downtown Memphis, which was not like an unusual activity for two girls, like of their status just to go...
Em: Mosey.
Christine: Chumming around town, I guess. [laughter] Umm, however, Alice, as we know, had ulterior motives spying on Freda. So Alice and Lily, and this is by the way, is when Lily discovers really how bad she is at reading the room, I guess, or like how bad she's at picking a friend I... That I shouldn't victim blame her. I guess uh, how much Alice has been just using her [laughter], I guess. Because as Alice and Lily strolled through the city, they did... They spotted Freda. They spotted Freda with her sister Joe and her friend Christina heading toward the river. And here's where Alice lost it, because she noticed they're walking toward the river to board a steamboat bound for Golddust. So basically...
Em: For a steamboat, you can't stock a steamboat.
Christine: You can't stock a steamboat. I've always said that. [laughter]
Em: I've always said that.
Christine: And it means it's the end of her trip. It's the last day Freda's in town. So it's like this is the end.
Em: Oh.
Christine: She's moving home, she's going back. And so Alice is like, this is my last chance. So desperation, she took it. Alice believed... This is what she later said, that she received a telling invitation from Freda through a gaze, like she said, you know, and this is where also...
Em: Please.
Christine: Some... Yeah. It's like nothing good's about to happen. So she believes Freda kind of gave her some eyes and she got some message that this was an okay. So she left this buggy, [chuckle] with Lily in it and began running toward Freda. As she's running toward her, she pulls out her father's razor.
Em: GASP. Oh my God.
Christine: And she has apparently been carrying this razor on her person for months, which is also very alarming because like this...
Em: So she was waiting for a moment?
Christine: Yeah. Like less spur of the moment than you would think, you know? She approached Freda and as she leaned in almost to make it look like, oh, she's giving her a farewell kiss, she took the razor and slashed her throat.
Em: GASP. Wow.
Christine: You wrote the incredibly and appropriately gay gasp that just came outta me, and I'm so [laughter] happy that you really just tracked right on top of that. Beautiful.
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Wow.
Christine: It deserves the gasp. It's shocking. And this part... Like in any other context, this part would be funny. It's obviously not funny because of the context, but like, just alone separate, this part just makes me kind of cock my head a little bit because Joe, Freda's sister attempted, [chuckle] took her umbrella, which I assume is like a parcel, and started trying to fend Alice off with the umbrella and started shouting, "You dirty dog." And I'm like, in any other context, this would be funny, but not when someone just slashed your sister's throat. Right?
Em: Right, exactly.
Christine: So of course then Alice is like enraged and she turns the razor on Joe and slashes Joe in the collarbone.
Em: GASP.
Christine: And so Joe cried out one last time, "Alice, you dirty dog," and was trying to get Freda to like escape to the steamboat so that she could like get away from Alice. And Alice started to chase her, but an icy slope caused her to slip and she fell down. And this whole like debacle is being watched by the town.
Em: And Lily in her car.
Christine: And Lily in the new... She's probably still in there talking about her fucking bonnet. [laughter] It's like, pay attention girl, [laughter] find a new friend. This one's not very nice to you. Umm, so she eventually... They're like slipping and sliding. It's icy out there. She basically... I mean, it sounds so scary. Freda's just trying to get to the boat to safety, you know, and she's bleeding her throat's, bleeding. I mean, it's just really scary. So Alice eventually does catch up to Freda, and then she grabs this razor and slashes her throat once more and this is what kills her.
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: So she's holding Freda's lifeless body and that's when Alice realizes there is a huge crowd of onlookers. And she panics.
Em: Yeah, girl.
Christine: Yeah, girl. Come on.
Em: What did you think was gonna happen? I mean.
Christine: What did you think was gonna happen?
Em: She was clearly seeing red.
Christine: She... Exactly. And so she panics, she rushes back to the buggy. [laughter] Where again, like her friend is just sitting in there. She rushes back to the buggy, seizes the reigns, and flees the scene. And she is covered in Freda's blood. And when they ask her why on earth she attacked Freda, Alice responded with a very chilling sentence and very simply and very calmly, she just said, "Because I love her."
Em: Oh my.
Christine: Yeah. So the following morning, this is also very chilling, Alice inquired about Freda's whereabouts, and everyone was like...
Em: What now?
Christine: Girl, she's dead, you killed her.
Em: So she...
Christine: She's almost like...
Em: She's not with us. She's...
Christine: She's not... She's on...
Em: She's not of this planet.
Christine: She's on a different planet right now. Her... She is like so dissociated from herself. It's like scary because she asked...
Em: Did she... Did she ask... And like, did I get away with this? What are people gonna say when I ask where she is?
Christine: No, I think she really had just concocted some narrative in her head, because when she found out that Freda was in the mortuary, she had like a full blown panic attack realizing like, oh, that was real. That really happened. Umm, and she...
Em: Wasn't a dream.
Christine: It wasn't a dream.
Em: Was no psychic pasta girl.
Christine: I know. I wish, like if we could trade those out and the psychic pasta was real and this was a dream. I wish we could, that would be great.
Em: If I know how to yank her out into this realm, I will. Don't worry.
Christine: I know. I know. I wish we could. So upon learning that Freda was up the mortuary, Alice broke down in tears. She kept begging her mother to let her lie next to the body, which like doesn't feel like her mother's job. It feels like Freda's mother's, you know? It's like you're...
Em: If it's someone's job, it's certainly not...
Christine: It's not her. Right?
Em: Your mom. Yeah.
Christine: Exactly. If it's anyone's job, which yeah, probably is not, but I just found this to be very Edgar Allen Poe. Like, oops, I killed her. Can I lay next to her? And just like...
Em: Yes.
Christine: Love her forever now that she's mine forever. You know, just like the little...
Em: And also by the way, guess who's not like... Even if Freda's mom would give that okay to somebody, it wouldn't be too her killer.
Christine: Oh, certainly not exactly. You talk about reading the room wrong. I mean, this is, you're really the last person they wanna see. So Alice was declared quote, presently insane, and she was sentenced to the Western State Hospital for the insane in Bolivar, Tennessee. And when testifying, she further detailed her motive for the murder. She explained that if they could not marry, then there was no reason for either of them to live.
Em: Well, they can't... Can't marry a dead person, my friend.
Christine: I know, right. And she said, no one else can marry Freda now, so that's good. And everyone was like, wow, you've really... You've really done it, huh? So during her time at the hospital, Alice continued to passionately kiss photographs of Freda and cut out, uh, newspaper clippings about her. At the time, the terms lesbian and homosexual were not commonly used in the US of course. Umm, and Alice's condition, as I called it, was instead referred to as sexual inversion.
Em: Ooh.
Christine: Where a person inappropriately assumes the characteristics of the opposite sex.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Hmm. And you wrote, "Lock me up."
[laughter]
Em: And I always had that too. I mean...
Christine: Oh my God.
Em: I meant it. So.
Christine: I know you did. So, because it was such a foreign concept, I guess, to people that a woman could have murdered another woman because of romance. Like people just could not get that in their heads, you know?
Em: Sure.
Christine: Like the jealousy angle... They just...
Em: Like they must have assumed that, like there must have been a man between them or something.
Christine: Yes. Okay. That is, I literally wrote, they had batshit theories, including the idea that Alice and Freda were fighting over a man, because that's how they... That's the only way their minds could comprehend like why a woman would hurt another... Or a girl would hurt another girl. And, umm, somehow that made more sense than the notion of like two women being romantically attracted to each other, you know? Or at least one woman being romantically attracted to the other, you know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So in 1898, Alice reportedly died of tuberculosis. However, one of her attorneys later claimed in an interview that she had died by suicide. So that is like quite an alarming difference in...
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: The account, I don't know which one it really is. But apparently one of her attorneys claimed that she died by suicide, by jumping into a water tower, which like, I feel like that would've been notated somewhere and like.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But also, why would you make that up? I don't... I don't really know. It's just a weird kind of strange... A strange, umm...
Em: I'm trying to think water tower, like Romeo and Juliet tower.
Christine: I mean, yeah, it does... It only, it sort of tracks when you think she said like, neither of us should live if we can't get married. So it's like.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I guess she's like upholding that end of that statement, but...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Oh, it's really, really upsetting. Umm, in any case, regardless of the cause some maintain that Alice died of a broken heart. Umm, it sounds like she was not gonna let go of that obsession anytime soon. So it feels like she was not doing well. Umm, and then that, that is the pretty much the end of the story. I wanted to bring a short one today. But I do have a fun fact for you here. That's at the end of the chapter. The term Boston marriage, which was coined around the same time as chumming, referred to a living arrangement between two women with no need for a man's financial support.
Em: Ooh.
Christine: Some of these relationships were platonic while others hinted at something more intimate. Ooh, la la.
Em: So you're saying, I have a chance, Christine?
[laughter]
Christine: Your roommates. Yeah.
Em: Uh, they're... That's similar to like a lavender marriage, I guess.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But a lavender marriage I think is just any two queer people. So especially like in the past it was like a gay man and a lesbian.
Christine: Yeah. I think...
Em: As each other's beards.
Christine: Yes. Yes. I think it's a similar concept. I feel like, umm, a Boston marriage was sort of the idea of like people who were well off. Like, you know, how they would say like, oh, two sisters who were spinsters and they moved in together. Like, a lot of times it was that, it was like two women who just didn't have another option except to move in with each other because...
Em: Gotcha.
Christine: They're friends and roommates and they don't have a husband. And it was like so weird back then. But nowadays it's like, oh no, we all live with different people, you know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: But back then it was like very weird. And I think sometimes, of course it was kind of rumored that people in these situations were romantically involved, but like that was usually just rumors. And typically they would just use the term to describe two women living together. Probably 'cause they're spinsters or...
Em: Sure.
Christine: Maybe they're in love. Who knows.
Em: Maybe, maybe both.
Christine: Honestly, best of both worlds. [laughter]
[foreign language]
Em: You know.
Christine: I agree with that. Actually. That's, uh, that's a good turnout. Anyway.
Em: Well thank you for...
Christine: Thank you listening.
Em: For giving me a, a gay story. It was probably a sad, the sadder of gay stories I've heard, but...
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Still, still queer. And how do I make fireworks? Yeah.
Christine: Oh, beautiful Em.
Em: Thank You. I made them myself.
Christine: You should have done this the whole time because it really darkens the background, you know?
Em: I know. Especially with the, the, the light getting me for moment there. Oh, well thank you everybody for coming to our 400th. What's the... What's the, you know how it's like paper is the first year? What's the...
Christine: Oh yeah.
Em: What's there 400th?
Christine: Four... What's a 400th anniversary? I'll find out.
Em: Because it, maybe it's something that I can buy you.
Christine: Ooh, pilgrims. What? [laughter] Oh. Oh, oh, that's a Mayflower. Okay, nevermind. Umm, 400th anniversary. What do you call it? Like a symbol?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I don't know that any humans have ever made...
Em: A material.
Christine: Oh, year four is linen. Well, that's not helpful.
Em: I could get you a hundred of those.
Christine: A hundred linens? That's expensive. [laughter]
Em: What's a hundred? And then I'll give you four of those.
Christine: What's a hundred? I think that's probably Diamond, So it's also expensive.
Em: I will tell Blaise to get you the best. Umm...
Christine: Umm, actually I think... Oh yeah, a 10 Carat diamond. Okay.
Em: Oh my. Umm-hmm.
Christine: I'd like a thousand Carats of diamonds, please.
Em: Okay. [laughter] Nevermind.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Hmm. How about uh...
Christine: I'm glad that we got this recorded for posterity's sake.
Em: About I give you 400 pieces of raw pasta in honor of today's episode?
Christine: Okay. Only if you can read my future in them though.
Em: I'll give you 400 pieces of pasta. Throw them in the air and then we'll guess what happens next.
Christine: Perfect. What could go wrong?
Em: Perfect. Okay. Well, great.
Christine: Noodles all the way to the top, baby.
Em: Thank you everyone for coming to our four centennial.
Christine: Aw.
Em: And we will, I guess see you next week, uh, with episode 401.
Christine: Yeah. The second half of this adventure, folks, [laughter] we're on it together.
Em: That implies there's at least 800 episodes in total of, And That's Why We Drink one day. So...
Christine: That's like... My stomach just flipped a little bit. I don't know why, but that's an alarming thought.
Em: Wheee. I'm not ending until we hit a thousand and then whatever...
Christine: We can't...
Em: Don't... Why would you say that?
Christine: No, we can't quit. Sorry.
Em: Oh, oh, oh. I was like, hang on...
Christine: Why would you say that? No, the spaghetti says, "hold on." No, umm, no I'm saying we can't stop until we reach a hundred, a thousand. That's like... We're both very, uh, we're both... Our brains work the same. We're never gonna stop until there's a thousand. Even if no one's listening, like, we're not gonna stop [laughter]
Em: No, I, no, I need a thousand for sure. Uh, until then, thank you everybody, and we'll see you next week and hop on over to Patreon for our, uh, whatever we call it now.
Christine: Yappy hour.
Em: To hear us talk even more.
Em: And.
Christine: That's.
Em: Why.
Christine: We.
Em: Drink.