Em Schulz: Someone sounds like they've got a little cold.
Christine Schiefer: No. This is literally just the same, whatever it was from when we were still...
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Prepping the tour. I've just become... My body is falling apart.
Em Schulz: Well, you look great. Yeah, you do... I couldn't have... You... You just sound sniffly, but your eyeliner is mwah!
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you. I'm not wearing any eyeliner, but thank you so much.
Em Schulz: So you're like Gio. You're just born with it?
Christine Schiefer: I wish... No, I just my eye... You know how like we said, oh, after we finish prepping the show, we can crash. I have not slept like a full night. Like, I've developed insomnia.
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I can't sleep at night. It's just horrible, Em. I'm just so ill. Like, everything's just hurting me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh. You really do sound like maybe you just have a cold, my friend. I think maybe you need to just accept it.
Christine Schiefer: No, I've had... Well I... It turned into, it was Leona's cold and then it turned into a sinus infection. And so now I'm treating that and that doesn't bother me at all. It's just the lack of sleep is like, slowly killing me so I can't get better because I'm not sleeping, so it's like...
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's just terrible.
Em Schulz: Is it, umm, is it like just like the the woes of being a mom and having to run after a kid, or is it like you really like even at night when you're on your own.
Christine Schiefer: I literally lay there and I'm like, for hours tossing and turning, I can't fall asleep, it's just horrible. And then I wake up every hour.
Em Schulz: Weird.
Christine Schiefer: In like a panic, and then can't fall back asleep. I've just developed some weird sleeping issue.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I'm so sorry. That's awful.
Christine Schiefer: Oh thank you. I uh, I was really hoping like once uh, once we finished the the crazy all-nighters that I would just kind of like let my body catch up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No and like... I think it likes the thrill of like just constant adrenaline waking me up. I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Have you done anything to like, umm, give yourself like a relaxing moment, like to like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Okay. So maybe that needs to happen, so.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to do that.
Em Schulz: Like it... Like, like if you're like forced, like uh, forced, I mean, I'm saying this to like someone who really doesn't have a lot of time on their hands, but like making yourself have a day where you just don't get off the couch or like you just take a a hot shower or...
Christine Schiefer: But then I start to feel depressed like, oh shit, I'm like just in the house all day, doing that... I don't know, I just... I can't...
Em Schulz: Win?
Christine Schiefer: I can't find... What?
Em Schulz: Win? You can't win, 'cause either you're gonna be stressed or depressed...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I can't win yeah. I can't win. I, I just like, I just, I hate sitting still for so long, but then I filled out my... Oh my God, Em, my therapist had me fill out... We're recording, aren't we? Yeah. Well, uh, I, my therapist had me fill out these like, you know, these forms every couple of months of like, just the classic, like, depression screener or anxiety screener.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like just filling out and I submitted, and we're just chatting, and then she kinda like stops and I'm like, what? And she goes, both of them have gone up six points since you started here in January.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like uh is that a lot? And she's like, I mean, it's like a third of the whole score, and I was like, oh my God.
Em Schulz: Oops, oopsies.
Christine Schiefer: So now I'm failing that, I don't know, I just... I don't know, I'm just falling apart, but our shows were really fun.
Em Schulz: I know, you know, I was gonna... I don't know how to like turn that in...
Christine Schiefer: No, just talk... Talk about something happy. This is... Nobody wants to hear a bummer about nothing, so...
Em Schulz: Oh, I mean, I did but okay. Umm, yes. Our shows went great. And now there's no reason to be stressed, right, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Okay. So.
Christine Schiefer: Just drink lots of coffee.
Em Schulz: And blow your nose or something... I don't know. Take a nap. Take a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh don't worry. I'll blow my nose plenty.
Em Schulz: Oh, I think you just need a good sleep, uh, and I, I just don't know how to give it to you. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my my my ring, my Oura Ring this morning, I woke up and it was like, something's wrong. I was like, oh, really? Is it? Thanks! Umm, and it was like...
Em Schulz: Have you tried the hospital, Christine? What... What's going on here?
Christine Schiefer: It literally said, you're waking up every hour and you've never had such disrupted sleep since you got this thing a year ago. And I was like, I don't know, I don't have a new... Like, it's like, life changes? Newborn at home? I was like, nope, none of that, just uh...
Em Schulz: I mean, it was certainly getting, getting ready for our show was a... A whole new shock to our systems, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: It was a shock to our systems... That is true.
Em Schulz: It was certainly something we've never had to deal with before, I don't know why it was so different from the previous times.
Christine Schiefer: I do, but I'll tell you off air, so we don't give any spoilers.
Em Schulz: I mean I can guess what you're probably gonna say but umm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean the name of the tour show is Poor Decisions, so folks, we're just trying to live up to that standard we... High standard we've set for ourselves.
Em Schulz: Next next next tour, we're not gonna maybe make the same poor decisions umm. I pray to God...
Christine Schiefer: I hope not. Maybe we'll make different... Different less sleep-deprived poor decisions. But why are you, why are you have... Why are you drinking? Tell me something about you.
Em Schulz: It was gonna be that I'm really proud of us for the tour.
Christine Schiefer: I am too.
Em Schulz: And that we can be both go to sleep now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh well I mean, I wanna go to sleep now, I'm hoping that my body figures it out. I think it's just taking too long to reset.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like it's like, are we still stressed? And I'm like, no. And it's like panicking. So I think once I crash, I'll crash really hard and it'll be fine, but yeah, I'm very proud of us, too, Em, and poor Eva and poor us, and poor everybody who had to be part of our lives.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that was rough. Umm. No, I, I was just gonna say I was really proud of us and I was gonna say, I hope you're feeling more relaxed, but I guess not so now I'll say, I hope you're drinking a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I was, I was for a minute.
Em Schulz: I hope you're drinking a lot of warm milk or something, and uh things will eventually get sleepy for you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I'm glad. I hope you're feeling better too.
Em Schulz: I feel fine.
Christine Schiefer: Great. Good, listen, one of us has to feel good at one point, we're always back and forth, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm good. I mean, I've like, now I'm just like... The only stress I have is house stress, but that's you know... Compared to what we were going through, I'm fine so.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's it, I, for me. Umm, I spent a long weekend in New York with my family. I, uh, which I, I'm taking now as like I really wanted to celebrate, you know, us being done with a tour, and I kept telling myself, I have these things called Em's Day O' Fun. And a lot of times...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa! Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: They're like to celebrate a really hard stressor I've been going through, or like if we've been, if I've been dealing with a lot, then I like, I'll schedule Em's Day O' Fun, where I... Maybe that's what you need. You ought to have to have Christine's Day O' Fun.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds... I was about to say, that just sounds so horrible. I mean, it sounds fun, but like... So much energy, right? Do you do go do stuff?
Em Schulz: No. It's...
Christine Schiefer: What's a Day O' Fun look like for you?
Em Schulz: It depends on what I wanna do that day, but I schedule a day where I just don't do anything except whatever I want.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what was that... What have you done?
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: What, like what did you do for this one?
Em Schulz: Well, the plan was originally... It always changes, but the, if I don't have a plan, I, the rou... The default would be like just like play VR and watch TV, and watch TikToks and bed rot and not feel bad about it. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: But this time around, I think it just turned into me being with my family for the weekend, but umm, I had a lot of fun with my cousin. In hindsight, my aunts and uncle are very sick of me, and I don't think they wanna see me for like another full calendar year.
Christine Schiefer: What? What do you... What do you mean?
Em Schulz: I think they're just getting older and they just... I think they felt overwhelmed about like having to host someone for multiple days and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And I don't have to think about it, it was pretty clear. So umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wait. Are you serious? Oh no, I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But my... But my cousin and I had a great time, umm.
Christine Schiefer: That's what that matters, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Now we both have an inside joke about how we'll...
Christine Schiefer: Now you're written out of the will, and it's all good.
Em Schulz: Yeah, we'll just, my, you know, Tanner and I now know that after two days. It's time to leave, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I, I spent every day with you last week, every waking... Uh not every day, every waking moment of every day and every night.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: I can't imagine ever getting sick of you.
Em Schulz: You know you say that but I actually didn't get sick of you once, so [laughter] it's weird that you would feel different.
Christine Schiefer: Well to be fair, most of the time, we were just in silence and then we'd like give each other the finger.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like once every hour. It would be like, go to hell. Just like out of the blue. Like we, we've developed like some severe behavioral issues umm being in the same room for for days on end with no sleep, umm and so... Yeah. Anyway, clearly I did not recover well.
Em Schulz: You know...
Christine Schiefer: But uh... I had fun while it lasted.
Em Schulz: I mean, every time I was with you, I kept thinking, there's no else I'd rather do this with, so.
Christine Schiefer: Aw, that's I mean, to be fair, yeah. There, I don't think I would want to be under the roof with anybody else so, for what it's worth.
Em Schulz: Umm anyway. I I think I've, I've discovered a time limit on my stays there, and that's fine. People have different time limits and now...
Christine Schiefer: I love that my only concept of your whole trip was like those pictures of you in the graveyard, and I'm like, what happened? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I had a great time at the cemetery. That was... That was the day before any of us got sick of each other.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. 'cause I looked so happy.
Em Schulz: It was happy. Hone... Ironically, the happiest time was when we were in a cemetery. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I get it. Listen, you're talking to the right person. I get it.
Em Schulz: But we... No, I have a bunch of family members buried in this one cemetery and so, umm, it was a, a big cleaning day.
Christine Schiefer: Aw. That's so nice.
Em Schulz: Umm we had a lot of ancestors to get through. We only got through like half of them, so, yikes, sorry to everybody else. Umm but it's just so out of the way. So I think us being there made my aunt feel like, oh, we should all go...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It's just like a... It's a road trip to get there. Umm and so I think after a long day of driving and like Hurley taking us around, I think the next day, she wanted to relax and then felt like she couldn't, and you know. So I think I just got... I think she's also sleepy, I think it's, we're just, it's just a world of sleepy people right now.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] I think everyone just needs a nap, I just...
Em Schulz: Think everyone needs a nap, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I just wish someone would give me some Ambien or something. I've never tried that, and I feel worried to try it, but I feel... I don't know. I feel like...
Em Schulz: The revs... The reviews are lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Yeah, well, I feel like if I go to the doctor, they're gonna be like, well, here's a sleeping thing, and I'm like, okay. Great, but also then I'm like, doesn't it make you sleep walk and have weird dreams and shit?
Em Schulz: Have you done magnesium glycinate?
Christine Schiefer: I've done everything, Em.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well then I'll stop talking.
Christine Schiefer: I've done every... I take that every day. I take, I take melatonin... I mean, I probably just have washed out my body with all this stuff and it doesn't react anymore. I take Bena... Sometimes I take Benadryl. Sometimes I take Tylenol PM. Sometimes I take...
Em Schulz: Have you tried the sleepy girl cocktail that's on TikTok? That seems to work very well.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I feel like if all these pharmaceuticals aren't working, but maybe, maybe I need to try uh...
Em Schulz: Sleepy girl cocktail.
Christine Schiefer: What is it again?
Em Schulz: Something about cranberries. I don't know. You can look it up. It's a... People swear by it, so.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I, I mean, I take like full on, like I'll take a Klonopin to help me fall asleep sometimes. And I still will be up for hours. So I'm like, I don't know if a sleepy... Maybe it'll be the one missing link. Maybe the sleepy girl. I don't want to knock it, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe you need cranberries or cherries or whatever it is.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: Well, good luck to you and your sleep.
Christine Schiefer: Well thanks.
Em Schulz: Uh if I knew what would make things better, I would send it to you overnight.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I, I mean, maybe this is it. Maybe it's, oh, I like how I typed, I typed in sleepy cocktail and it was like, you mean mocktail? And I was like, oh man. Yeah. I guess I mean, mocktail.
Em Schulz: You know, Em's Day O' Fun includes a lot of mocktails, so.
Christine Schiefer: Cherry juice and magnesium powder.
Em Schulz: That's it. Yeah yeah yeah. But they swear by it. I don't know. Get in a roll.
Christine Schiefer: I mean I guess... Yeah. I guess...
Em Schulz: How desperate are you? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, there's actually a supplement in it. I thought it was just going to be like cherry juice. And I was like, then I'll just have to pee. But if maybe the magnesium is the...
Em Schulz: I think it's the ma...
Christine Schiefer: Kicker.
Em Schulz: I mean, uh I've been told that if melatonin doesn't work for you, magnesium glycinate, especially if you have ADHD, it seems to work better. Umm, and that's what I take a lot of times, but...
Christine Schiefer: Is it glycinate or glyconate? Oh God, I guess it's glycinate. Glycinate?
Em Schulz: I mean, I've always said glycinate and no one's corrected me, but also maybe everyone's trying to be nice.
Christine Schiefer: Except me. I'm like, hi, [chuckle] I don't even know how to say it. And here I am correcting you. Umm, standard. Sorry. My behavioral issues haven't settled since our big week. Oh, fun.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh terror. Yeah. Umm, oh horrors. [laughter] Well anyway, I had a lot of fun, uh, in New York. I went to Sleepy Hollow. I did the, umm, my cousin and I were trying to figure out what to do. We, we took my... My gammy who passed away. She left her car at, at, uh, my aunt's house. And so we took it for a joy ride. We ended up in Jersey. We went to a big mall. It was very lovely. And we bonded. That was nice. So.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds wonderful, Em.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay, let's see. I have a story for you. Are you ready?
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: It's pretty good. You tell me actually. Umm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'll be the judge of that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: This is... This is the SK Pierce manor or mansion, depending on which article you're reading.
Christine Schiefer: Oh for just a brief moment, I thought it was a boat, 'cause you said S, the S...
Em Schulz: Mm. The SS Pierce manor.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I thought it was, but, but SK. Okay.
Em Schulz: SK for Sylvester K. I never got his middle name.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man.
Em Schulz: Let's say Keith. Okay. So.
Christine Schiefer: Sylvester Keith! [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, which by the way, Sylvester? That's one of those names that I have on a baby list that I know I'll never use, but I actually do secretly love.
Christine Schiefer: I know. But you're like, but I want to keep it on the list. 'Cause it, it... I do like it. I that...
Em Schulz: Like I'll never admit to it until it becomes popular.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: And then all of a sudden I'll be like, I had it on my list forever. That's how I was with...
Christine Schiefer: I came up with that first. Yeah. You're just not bold enough to use it. Right. Right. Right.
Em Schulz: That's how I was with Oliver and Owen. Those were names I've had literally for at least 15 years of my life on a list.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But that means that every millennial also had it on their list, which probably means we were all waiting to have our own kids.
Em Schulz: Maybe, but every single time I suggested Oliver, Owen, people would go, ugh, really? And so maybe I was just with the wrong crowd, but Sylvester is also on that list. And the day it gets big, I want everyone to know, hear it here first, I fucking claimed it.
Christine Schiefer: This is the... This is like the evidence. I, uh, I, I love... I know you don't usually like old timey names. So this is kind of a fun twist. I like that you like that name. That... That makes me happy.
Em Schulz: Well, I like three things about it. One, the nickname is Sly. I like that.
Christine Schiefer: So, wait, no, it's not. It's Syl. It's Syl.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, unless you're dyslexic, which is fine, but S-Y-L.
Em Schulz: I've never met anyone named Syl. I've met people named Sly and it was short for Sylvester.
Christine Schiefer: Are you being serious?
Em Schulz: Why would I make... This is like the dumbest joke to make. Why would I make that up? [laughter] That's the stupidest joke I could make.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not saying you're joking. I just don't understand. I don't understand why it would be Sly?
Em Schulz: I also don't, but I... Maybe because Sly was an actual word and people thought that was better than Syl? I don't know. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: I guess, yeah I think I'm also just thinking like...
Em Schulz: You're sleepy, Christine. That's okay. Shh. That's okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. I, I guess it is a nickname. I think I just, in Germany, it's like, Sylvester is like a name in Germany, like a relatively common name.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the nickname is not Sly. So I'm like, maybe I'm just... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Maybe it will exist. I mean, you can do anything with a name. You know?
Christine Schiefer: I was going to say, Silly, which is not a name either. Uh.
Em Schulz: People call themselves Rock now, so you can do whatever you want. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, what about Sylvi? That's kind of cute. Sylvester, Sylvi?
Em Schulz: See, that's where we run different courses.
Christine Schiefer: You don't like that?
Em Schulz: Nah.
Christine Schiefer: Well, it also means "for it," the woods.
Em Schulz: I like that, but I also like the cat, obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. Obviously.
Em Schulz: And then one of my favorite movies when I was a little kid was Baby Geniuses. And the main character there was Sylvester, whose nickname was Sly, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, listen, I'm being proven wrong by probably you and everybody on Instagram. Sorry.
Em Schulz: And all the baby geniuses. That's exactly right. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah. Exactly. Why would I ever question their authority? I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: The baby geniuses.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: Oh okay. So anyway, love the name Sylvester. So let's move on.
Christine Schiefer: It's a great name. In Germany, you know what Sylvester means? It's the, it's the name of the New Year holiday.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Fun.
Christine Schiefer: So, if you wanted another reason, Sylvester is December 31st. That's when they, they celebrate Sylvester. So if you want another reason to like the name.
Em Schulz: That's fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm how do you feel about Keith?
Christine Schiefer: No comment. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, same. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Let's keep it to K. Let's say. Okay, it's just Sylvester K.
[pause]
Em Schulz: Okay. So note, that... Most of the information from this comes from uh the book called Bones in the Basement: Surviving the S. K. Pierce Haunted Victorian Mansion which...
Christine Schiefer: Surviving it? Wow.
Em Schulz: Which again, what is with names and titles as long as the fucking book? But okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like our fucking podcast. Yeah, exactly. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, this is from uh Gardner, Massachusetts. And the mansion is named after the OG owner, Sylvester Pierce who...
Christine Schiefer: Sly Keith. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Sly KP. Yeah, that's right. And he manufactured furniture and apparently he did it so well that his business was so successful that the town became nicknamed Chair City, which umm...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up!
Em Schulz: I feel like of all the furniture, chair, like I would not want to be Chair City. I'd want to be like Couch City or something like cozier.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. Sofa... Sofa City. Although that does sound like a strip mall joint.
Em Schulz: Mm. Table Town?
Christine Schiefer: Table Town. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, there's so many other options. Chair City just feels a little too, like, poised and proper.
Christine Schiefer: What about like, umm, Comfy County or like Cozy County, like something like...
Em Schulz: Oh, Cozy County.
Christine Schiefer: It's a chair. But a chair's not cozy.
Em Schulz: Are you fucking kidding? That's what I'm saying. It's not cozy. You're right.
Christine Schiefer: They'd, they'd be like, you're right. They'd be lying if they said cozy. It has to be like, Sit Up Straight City.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I would almost want like, like something with like daybed in it or like...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. A chaise lounge.
Em Schulz: Oh, chaise lounge shitty, the shitty city. [laughter] Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The shit...
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. We've gone too far. So Chair City. When building this mansion, Sylvester paid a huge team to build around the clock, and it still took them about two years to build it. Umm, so it was that big. I think the last...
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: One of the sources I saw said that it was like over 20 rooms. Umm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. Okay.
Em Schulz: I mean, it's...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. What year is this? I wasn't really paying attention.
Em Schulz: I haven't given a year yet. So right.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: Umm it... Let's... Let's put it this way.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I was totally paying attention the whole time so. [laughter]
Em Schulz: As like, your eyes were like kinda nodding off, you're so tired.
Christine Schiefer: I was Googling like Sylvester, like still, for no reason anyway.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Umm, okay. So it took two years for them to build. And then by 1875, umm, that's when they moved in. So the building was interestingly, 6660 square feet.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh! They were like 666 won't do.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: It's a mansion.
Em Schulz: I mean, six more square feet. It would have been 6666 I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Whatever. Umm, but it had multiple entrances for house staff. It had a butler's pantry. It had bells throughout the house to communicate with one another. It had ornate woodwork details, big fireplaces, and two indoor cisterns to gather rainwater to provide indoor plumbing back then.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus!
Em Schulz: I know. I mean, I would have also waited two years for a house if it was going to give me a toilet.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, nowadays people build houses for a... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Toilet town!
Christine Schiefer: Potty... [laughter] Latrine ville. I don't know. I I can't... My brain is broken today. I'm scr... I, it's scrambled as well. Umm, wow, okay. Anyway, go on.
Em Schulz: So in 1875, he moves in with his wife, Susan. And their, I don't know why it's stated this way, but their adult son, Frank, umm, I feel like if you're going to move into a literal over 6,000 square foot house, maybe your adult son can fucking move in, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's not like weird that he has a place there. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah it's like, he heard there's a toilet.
Christine Schiefer: Although, I feel like... Yeah. He's like, I'm not living with my wife. Forget it! She doesn't have a toilet.
Em Schulz: Exactly. If I found out that I was moving into this house with Allison or the exact same house with a toilet, I guess which one I'm picking. Bye, Allison. [laughter] Umm, okay. So moved in with wife, Susan and their adult son, Frank, who... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Poor, poor Frank.
Em Schulz: And then, after... However long their relationship was. And then waiting two years, move into this place. Two weeks into living there. Susan dies.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. No!
Em Schulz: From some infection. They don't really say.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Umm, the, this is where I did a bit of a deep dive whoopsies because, uh, it said in the notes that the expected mourning period was two years.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Oh, you know, we love this in... It... This, this mourning stuff, Victorian mourning.
Em Schulz: And I went, and I went that's not enough information for me. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: No, you said it's not enough time. And I was like, okay, Em, that feels like... You're not allowed to say that, but...
Em Schulz: Umm, as a narcissist, it certainly is... I...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Not if I die.
Em Schulz: A decade minimum. Umm, okay. So, uh, yeah. So Saoirse wrote the expected mourning period was two years. And I was like, I'm not, that's not enough for me so here we go...
Christine Schiefer: Elaborate. Speak on that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, umm, let's, let's do this. So I, in the late 1800s, I looked up the mourning period of each century, LOL. It's basically an 1800 situation. Umm, but the mourning period and the mourning rituals in general were very public, very visual, fell mostly on women, of course, because guess what? They're more moral than men, of course.
Christine Schiefer: Right, for, for sure. They have to uphold the moral standard.
Em Schulz: Literally, that's why because yeah. 'Cause they are within control and thought and reason more, but God forbid they can fucking vote. Okay. So.
Christine Schiefer: Makes sense to me. [laughter] no, they're not that reasonable. They go hysterical every once a month. We can't have that.
Em Schulz: They, they wear black beautifully, but God forbid that they have a fucking thought. Yuck. Okay so.
Christine Schiefer: God forbid they bleed in the White House, I mean, God.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So anyway, black attire was representing, uh, was worn because it represented one's inner sorrow. There are... Do you want to know how many stages of mourning? Do you... We want to guess how many stages of mourning.
Christine Schiefer: This... And this is I, but obviously probably stupid question, but this is different from the stages of grief, correct? Stages of mourning? Okay, I'm just making sure.
Em Schulz: This is, yeah. That requires psychology and science, I think.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, Oh, I know this. Umm, no, I don't know this. Okay. Uh, are there 13? That seems too on the nose. I don't know.
Em Schulz: There's 666. No, it's a three stages of mourning.
Christine Schiefer: Three. Okay. Few. That seems a lot more reasonable.
Em Schulz: There's deep mourning, ordinary mourning, LOL. And then half mourning.
Christine Schiefer: Half mourning? That feels like half ass mourning.
Em Schulz: I know. Well, so half... Our ordinary mourning is also called second mourning. 'Cause I guess it's the second phase, but, umm... It's supposed to...
Christine Schiefer: And for those of you who are like half tuning in, we're saying mourning with a U, like if you're like...
Em Schulz: Your like grief. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: A mourning ritual? Like mourning ritual.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There are also three stages to my morning ritual...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Which is sleep, continue to sleep, squawk, and then go back to sleep. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say... Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so deep mourning... It's supposed to be as if it's a gradient, like you're in deep mourning, then you're kind of like dealing with ordinary amounts of grief.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And then you're going through a half amount of grief.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like phasing it out. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes. And that's what the clothes are supposed to represent too.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So you start with really only blacks and then eventually, you startly... You start working into... Start working colorful clothing back into your umm fashion.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So deep mourning, you have dull with no sheen black fabrics. It's put... Nothing eye-catching.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man.
Em Schulz: Nothing fun at all. You are just miserable, and your clothes reflect that.
Christine Schiefer: And you have to wear clothes. That sucks too.
Em Schulz: I know, can you just...
Christine Schiefer: If I'm miserable, just like, don't take me out of my shark t-shirt that I'm currently wearing. See?
Em Schulz: Can't you just starfish naked on the bed and just cry it out, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Just come on. That's one stage of mourning. It's all we need.
Em Schulz: So then ordinary mourning is you are still expected to wear all black, but you can kind of incorporate some like simple jewelry, simple trimmings on your clothes. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: God, how do you, that sounds like the nightmare, like the most nightmarish social anxiety. Like, can I put on earrings today? Or are all the ladies going to be like, you, you know, is it too soon? [laughter] Like, is it like, when is too soon? Or are they going to start talking? Like, when is she going to wear her necklace again? Like, Oh my God, my anxiety. I can't stand it.
Em Schulz: I feel like in that moment, you just bring earrings and, and suss out the vibe.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Good idea. Good, good idea.
Em Schulz: See if you can put them on. And then, or maybe just hold your ear and just wait to see what they think. And then like, just kind of slip them right out. Like just say...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just be like, Oh, too shiny. Okay.
Em Schulz: So far it looks like I'm constantly in deep mourning, I guess if I'm 90% of the time wearing a black t-shirt, black joggers and black socks, but umm okay.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe we're always in half mourning. Maybe that's just our current status of life.
Em Schulz: It may be... Yeah. So okay. So ordinary mourning, you're allowed to start incorporating some accessories, and then half mourning is you're allowed to have accessories, they can't be too flashy, but also your clothing starts lightening up, so you can wear grays, purples and monotone colors. So black white...
Christine Schiefer: Oh huzzah!
Em Schulz: Black, white, neutral.
Christine Schiefer: I get to wear gray again. Yay!
Em Schulz: I know. So this is representing that you're gradually bringing color back to your life and those who could not afford brand new attire to mourn, can you imagine, first of all, someone you love dying and now you have to go fucking shopping and it's not even a fun shopping spree? You have to just go buy all dark shit.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Well, and at, at that time too, you had to be like measured and there were all these pins. Like, it's not, I mean, of course, if you were like upper class or whatever...
Em Schulz: And you have to be super rich to have a massive closet of clothes.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: So, so people who could not afford all new attire would end up dyeing some of their existing clothes black.
Christine Schiefer: When you say, "would end up dying", I was like, why? No!
Em Schulz: Oh, well. Just to avoid it all. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Dyeing their... Dyeing their clothes just to avoid the fashion faux pas. Yeah, me too, I get it.
Em Schulz: I mean, honestly, if I did, if I couldn't afford it, I would just stay inside star-fishing naked on the bed, crying.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, nobody needs to know.
Em Schulz: So it actually works out. Umm so that's the clothing situation. The time spent in each mourning period depended on how close you were with the deceased or your actual relationship, like kinship to them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So if you were a parent or child, uh, uh, if your parent or child died, it was expected at least a year of, of...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I think even deep mourning was one year.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm if it was a grandparent or grandchild, it was six to nine months. I guess we didn't really like them. You could just do six. It's fine. And then my aunt as... After this weekend, it would just be six months.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah. She's already out of mourning. It's fine.
Em Schulz: She's like, oh, well, you know, it's been an hour, [laughter] umm and if it's your sibling, if they passed away, it's only expected to do six months.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: So, and I guess if it's your friend, you just don't even try so. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: A widow.
Em Schulz: I know. If you're a widow, it, you could be expected to be in full mourning for at least a year. It was a, really, if you were trying to prove your commitment or your loyalty to the marriage, and it was up to two and a half years, umm, a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: But you gotta get remarried, right? At that time? It's like...
Em Schulz: Isn't that funny?
Christine Schiefer: Hurry up the process.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, I'm in a dark black veil and hopefully that attracts all my suitors who are willing to wait three years.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right. They just come buzzing on by.
Em Schulz: And hopefully the person who died that I'm mourning had enough money left over that I can live off until I can marry again.
Christine Schiefer: To survive. A hundred percent.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Imagine the people who got like shit talked about them behind their back. 'Cause they just need to get married to fucking eat. You know? Like it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. To be like, uh this is just a survival mechanism at this point.
Em Schulz: I got married 'cause he left me no money. And yet, I'm the asshole 'cause I'm not wearing black. Okay. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you're an asshole 'cause you're poor, I think is what they would say.
Em Schulz: Umm anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh yes. Of course. Poor. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And then they would be like, you should probably die instead of mour-mourning in your black dress.
Em Schulz: Not much has changed. So, umm, it feels like Queen... Oh, apparently if you are, uh, really committing to the bit and you're like, I'm never marrying again, you're expected to mourn, deep mourn for the rest of your life. Umm apparently...
Christine Schiefer: So either you get married or you're just fucking sad forever?
Em Schulz: If you decided you never wanted to marry again, if you, like, I guess were in a place where you could do that. Umm, a lot of women at the time, it wasn't like expected, but if they wanted to prove that they were more pious and moral than anybody else, they would be seen in full black for the rest of their life because it emulated Queen Victoria who did that when her husband died.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, widowers on the other hand, they only had to mourn for up to six months, plus because they already wore basically only black suits. Their dress never really changed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh great.
Em Schulz: So they didn't have to go through all this rigmarole of like guessing what to wear. And children, which I thought this was lovely... Umm, children are not expected to wear any black, but maybe have a dark accessory if you wanted them to be involved in the ritual of mourning.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But the... But the depressing clothes they thought might affect the development of the child and didn't want to darken their spirit.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, women, put this on, but don't affect the children with all of your gloom. Bad for them.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Eventually people, eventually people did realize that this was probably the case for adults too, which is why...
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: Re... Reform started against these practices of like forcing yourself to be in a depressive state. Umm, and by World War I, these practices were pretty much gone just in time for World War I, where everyone was dying.
Christine Schiefer: Youch!
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, we're all going to be in mourning. Let's just ease up on all the new clothes, you know.
Em Schulz: It's like now that we're all the same and everyone's dying, I don't know how much we have to do this.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh yeah. Nah.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that is my deep dive.
Christine Schiefer: It's not special like it used to be, you know, it's not the same as when this was an exclusive club.
Em Schulz: Woe is me. Woe is me. I don't look special grieving anymore.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that is my deep dive on that. And okay. So then 1875, the Pierces move in, his wife immediately dies. Now she's him and his adult son, Frank and one toilet.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And, uh, and so then the manor immediately becomes the social hub for artists, politicians, and businessmen. I don't know how good he was at manufacturing furniture, but within 10 years of living there, like the president was visiting this house.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So Chair City. That's a pretty... A gold chair.
Christine Schiefer: Chair City is [laughter] making moves.
Em Schulz: So President Coolidge lived there PT... Or not lived there. Sorry. President Coolidge visited, PT Barnum visited, Norman Rockwell visited...
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: And only 13 years into moving into this house and having all this success with the house, then Sylvester dies.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Umm, he remarried a woman named Ellen, uh, be... After his wife died, who was 30 years younger than him.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And they had two other sons. So after Sylvester dies, uh, his wife gets the inheritance. And apparently, his adult son, Frank, uh, hated that, and was like...
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: I was here before you, bitch. And so he decided that he was going to take custody of his brothers to try to steal their share of the estate. Umm, drama. Drama...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Drama in Chair City.
Christine Schiefer: Drama. A little drama right here in Chair City with a capital D. And that starts with D, and that's fun for me. You know, that...
Em Schulz: You know, back to the drawing board, drawing room. Nope. Okay. Nevermind. I don't know what I was trying to do.
Christine Schiefer: Well thanks for ruining my nice music band shoutout.
Em Schulz: It sounded like it ended. Umm, you're welcome. Anyway, here we go. After it became Chair City, you know, hot to trot drama, umm, Frank, I guess ended up not winning custody of his sons, but for years there was this like very local, well-known like legal battle about who deserved the estate.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Ellen dies. Frank moves out with... One of the older sons moves out. And then the youngest son, Edward, is responsible for this building. Eventually, the family fortune starts dwi... Starts dwindling. And that's probably because of the Great Depression. Umm, that one point they tried to convert it into a, the Victorian Inn.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And then, and then from there, it became a boarding house. It was still dwindling financially. And eventually, Edward couldn't take care of it. So his friend decided to take ownership of it. And the rumor is like, Edward just lost it in a card game. I don't know if that's true. Umm, but his friend said, I'll take... I'll take responsibility and ownership of this place. You can still live there, but I'm going to deal with like the renovations and stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Okay.
Em Schulz: Nice deal for Edward.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, umm, Edward spent the rest of his life there. He was the last person to die there. Umm, in total, there was like, oh no. He was the second to last person to die there. Up until this point though, every single person who has died was a member of the family.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In the house. Umm, while he was living there, his friend spent over a hundred thousand dollars renovating it. And for some reason I'm assuming ghosts, because this is a ghost story, but there's no, there's nothing to, to prove that. But for some reason, the friend ended up moving away and left the house completely abandoned for 20 years.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh.
Em Schulz: This is after Edward died. So maybe after Edward died, he started haunting his friend. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe he just was like in mourning and they were like, you're a man. You shouldn't be in mourning. [laughter] And he's like, leave me alone.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Let me run away. So he, the place was abandoned for 20 years after being fully renovated. And then by the time it got repurchased, it had to be renovated again. Re-renovated because...
Christine Schiefer: Re-renovated. Okay.
Em Schulz: Because it now had, it'd been so dilapidated of just sitting there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh after spending all that money too. Oh God.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: That hurts.
Em Schulz: So in 2000, we really skyrocketed into the years here.
Christine Schiefer: Wait a minute. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In 2000, a new couple purchases it, but it was once again, again in poor condition. It had to be renovated for a second time. They renovate it, but I'm assuming the renovations are what caused this that, like, it was just a lot on the marriage. They ended up getting divorced and by 2006, they've moved out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Okay.
Em Schulz: So now it's been renovated twice and barely anyone's even fucking lived there...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: In like a quarter of a century. Two years later, in 2008, Lillian and Edwin, our main characters decided to move in and they decided to move in because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well, their names are Lillian and Edwin.
Em Schulz: They didn't...
Christine Schiefer: Like, who else is gonna move in here? It's the perfect couple.
Em Schulz: It is a little, uh, old timey names.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Uh, they'd be on the list, right under Sylvester, maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So Lillian and Edwin decide to move in. I don't think they actually had plans of like getting a house, or if they did, it was not this type of house. But Lillian saw it, and immediately was weirdly fucking fixated on this house. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh. That happens. I feel like, I hear about that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, it was not in character for her. This is not what she's usually like, but she had a feeling that this thing was meant for them. She couldn't stop thinking about it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: Meanwhile, Edwin, Mr. Responsible is like, hang on a second. I'm looking at the numbers here, and I don't think we can afford this. But Lillian is like, so into it that he is like, okay, I guess we can do this. And he thought it was especially odd because she was a caregiver, I think, umm, a caregiver for her mom. And this place was like an hour away. And he was like, why do you wanna move away from everything?
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And everyone, like, very odd that...
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: But so, but she was so committed to it that he was like, okay, I guess we can at least go on a tour of this place. So the night before the tour, he has this really freaky dream...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: That he's floating out front of the front doors of the house, floats into the building, and he sees an 1800s party going on.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: He's floating around. Nobody notices him, except for...
Christine Schiefer: There's a celery vase here. There's a celery vase there.
Em Schulz: You've got your celeries, you've got your vases. [laughter] And, uh, he... He, he's floating around. Nobody's noticing him except for one man notices him in the crowd.
Christine Schiefer: Ew!
Em Schulz: And greets him, says hello. And then Edwin wakes up.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. He's like, welcome.
Em Schulz: Yes. It's like, oh, it's the beginning of the end...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. You're the guest... You're the guest of honor.
Em Schulz: Yes. The man was in black. Can't tell you if he was mourning or not. And, uh, they think it was Sylvester because Edwin said he got the vibe this was the master of the house.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And... I know. So then the next day, he wakes up and they go on this tour and they realize, or Edwin realizes, these are the exact doors I was floating in front of last night.
Christine Schiefer: Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew!
Em Schulz: He goes into the room where he saw the party. He had never seen pictures of this place before. He was like, I don't, I have been, I was literally here last night. And he can even see the spot where the man said hi to him.
Christine Schiefer: That must shake you to your core. You know?
Em Schulz: Honestly...
Christine Schiefer: Especially if you're like not a spiritual person, that must be just like shocking to your system.
Em Schulz: It's moments like this where I'm like, fucking read the room. Like if that happened to me, like that's the first of, of many red flags, but that's the only red flag I need. I'm like, ah...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, for me, it did, but then people like me are like, maybe that means I'm destined to live here. Like, it's just...
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like people...
Em Schulz: I would look at Allison and I...
Christine Schiefer: Spin that the wrong way.
Em Schulz: It'd be this moment where I'd be like, Allison, this is... We've been working up to this moment where I need you to trust me on one full... On one statement.
Christine Schiefer: Please look me in the eye.
Em Schulz: We're not living here.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We're not living here. Don't ask me a question. We're not living here. But anyway, Edwin didn't have that conversation with Lillian, and they're still on this tour. He's realizing he knows this house because he just dreamed it. And on the tour, the, the people are even saying, hey, don't take pictures. Don't take pictures while you're here.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Which also goes to show that during previous tours, no pictures have been taken so Edwin couldn't have seen these rooms.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, but they're like, no pictures. Don't take pictures.
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: They approach a set of doors, again, doors that Edwin had seen. Uh, and this starts to really freak Edwin out. Despite this, Lillian is like beyond enamored with the house. They... And he kind of thinks, okay, it's weird that I had this dream, but whatever. Like, she really cares about this house. Let's just get it. I don't know how we're gonna afford it, but we're going to do some work on it and then move in the spring.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So the first chunk of the story is them just working on the house while not even living there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, funny enough, as soon as they buy this house, Lillian's sister says, oh, here's a video I just saw of a team of ghost hunters here.
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: Umm, which I kind of wonder if it was an episode of Ghost Adventures.
Christine Schiefer: Now that would be quite a welcome. A, a welcome home, a house warming gift from your sister.
Em Schulz: Maybe he actually just dreamt of Zak. He just heard it like, you know, when you're sleeping and you can hear a TV program.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: Maybe he was...
Christine Schiefer: You're right.
Em Schulz: The dream was just Zak Bagans going, welcome to hell. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's like that new VR, uh, Zak Bagans thing that we're inventing where you get to...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Put on a thing and you're like, in the eyes of Zak Bagans, you know. [laughter] It's pretty cool, actually.
Em Schulz: Oh, I love how your sleepy brain works. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: You're just punching, punching the ghosts.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Can I tell you something really bad?
Christine Schiefer: Always.
Em Schulz: I punched my cousin in the face this weekend.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] No wonder you're... I like how you're like, I can't imagine why my relatives don't want me staying with them anymore. Why would you... Wait, what happened? Tell me everything.
Em Schulz: Like a clean clocked him in the face as hard as I could.
Christine Schiefer: Wow! Did it feel good? Is that not, I'm not supposed to ask that.
Em Schulz: It felt if... Maybe it felt a little good.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What was happening? He... But did he deserve it? Probably.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm just gonna say I, I don't remember. I was sleeping. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Well, that all bets are off.
Em Schulz: But apparently, I, but I, I woke up enough that we made eye contact and I still did it. And then I went back to, I was...
Christine Schiefer: Did he scare you?
Em Schulz: He thought it would be funny to wake me up by tickling me in the armpits.
Christine Schiefer: Incorrect. Okay. So like, obviously, he deserved, I mean, I would've punched him so hard, his nose would've broken.
Em Schulz: He has little brother energy. He still likes to like, poke me in the ribs, in the armpit and try tickle me. And...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
Em Schulz: And I, apparently he got me right in the arm at the wrong moment. And I like...
Christine Schiefer: And your literal worst fear is someone touching your armpits while you sleep. I don't understand.
Em Schulz: I, apparently our eyes connected and I looked him into his soul as I absolutely wrecked his shit, apparently. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It said, target recognized. I mean, I don't blame you for one.
Em Schulz: It was my sleeper agent code would... Had been realized. Like, I just came to...
Christine Schiefer: The buttons in your armpits. Yeah. I, I do not think you were in the wrong. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Uh, he woke me up. Or the, the, he didn't... Well, he apparently woke me up for a second. I went right back to bed too. So apparently I had...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good. It wasn't that...
Em Schulz: I had no guilt about it.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, if you're being a little brother energy to a full grown adult who's sleeping, umm, what do you think is gonna happen?
Em Schulz: I just feel bad. It's, I think it's one of the only times I've ever punched somebody. Umm, but I, apparently I got him real good. Like, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Ah.
Em Schulz: Anyway. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I know him, but... I know him. I, but for people who are like, what the fuck, Christine? I know him and he does give little brother energy. So as someone with a little brother, I get it.
Em Schulz: [laughter] He, uh, you know, I will say he never touched my armpits again for the entire weekend, so.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: I guess it worked.
Christine Schiefer: You're just protect... It's called, uh, protecting your space, your property.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, anyway, sorry. You brought up punching and I was like, oh, that's why I feel a little like shit today.
Christine Schiefer: You had to tell me. [laughter] Yeah. Well, actually the strangest thing happened. You've really lifted my spirits.
Em Schulz: Oh, great.
Christine Schiefer: So I feel that maybe you've given me some of your life force. Thank you for that.
Em Schulz: Tanner, this was for... This was for Christine, actually. It was...
Christine Schiefer: Tanner, uh, thank you for...
Em Schulz: Thank you for contributing.
Christine Schiefer: Your service. Yeah, I appreciate it. I feel a lot better.
Em Schulz: So, okay. So her sister sees this ghost hunting show. Uh, we don't know which one it was. I'm assuming Ghost Adventures.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And then she goes, uh-oh, apparently this place really is haunted. But she doesn't believe in ghosts, so she doesn't even give a shit. She doesn't believe in ghosts.
Christine Schiefer: She just think it's a fun fact. Like, Ah, that's weird.
Em Schulz: Apparently, so.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Meanwhile, in a bookstore, Edwin finds a book about their fucking house. And, uh, a, in a, in a, or a, sees a chapter of it in a haunted house book.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And in the book it says that the second floor is haunted by a man who just casually, spontaneously combusts. Umm, so he...
Christine Schiefer: Like in spirit form.
Em Schulz: I hope so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I don't know why I thought like, oh, does it like, cause other people to spontaneously combust, but like the ghost itself does.
Em Schulz: I see. No, the ghost itself combusts.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's weird. Okay.
Em Schulz: He was like, hmm, that's enough for me to call the realtor and be like, why didn't you warn us?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: And the realtor said, Oh, yeah. Actually the no photos rule was because so many investigators pretend to be prospective buyers so they can get access...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: And take pictures of the building.
Christine Schiefer: That's actually...
Em Schulz: Kind of genius.
Christine Schiefer: So smart.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's actually so smart. I'm not gonna lie.
Em Schulz: I don't, I don't wanna give anyone props, but that actually is of... A sly move.
Christine Schiefer: It's not a bad idea. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Oh, that got me. Good. Good job.
Em Schulz: So after the confirmation that this place is haunted, Edwin, uh, is like, Yep. Can confirm, because I've been feeling weird shit around this house.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Anyway, the main bedroom, uh, and another room they call the copper room, which I guess is full of copper, said they both felt very, umm, unwelcoming and dark, but the billiard room had a warm, inviting atmosphere, I guess. 'Cause that's where they socialized.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, where people socialized.
Christine Schiefer: That's where the only, only the men were allowed in probably.
Em Schulz: Yes. Obviously. Yuck. If a woman's in a room, forget it.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it. Gross.
Em Schulz: Umm, Edwin...
Christine Schiefer: Bad vibes.
Em Schulz: Edwin began feeling extremely uneasy all over the house. Lillian couldn't have cared less because she's like...
Christine Schiefer: She's like whee!
Em Schulz: She's like, but have you seen the window sills and the curtains and every little inch?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so things start happening, and Edwin is the only one freaking out. One time Lillian found these, like two decorative pieces of glass, and she put them on the mantle in their house, and multiple times over, they found them at least one of them lying in the middle of the room.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And they're glass. So if it's falling off the mantle and rolling to the same spot, it should be shattering, first of all.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I would think so. Especially over and over again.
Em Schulz: Second of all, Edwin was like, okay, maybe the floor is uneven and it's just rolling off and it's going into the center of, you know, of the house. But every time he tried to replicate it, it wasn't happening.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And, umm...
Christine Schiefer: And you know, we've done that where you just jump up and down over and over.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I'll knock it off.
Em Schulz: Yep. And it's not happening. So then he's having dinner. He hears a massive crash in the basement, and when he looks around, there's no cause of the sound.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: But they go back to dinner and all of a sudden this 3-foot long, big ass metal planter slides across the entire floor.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And still desperate for there to be a reason to that he tried to like, push it himself and see like, maybe the floor's still slanted.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no! He's not even strong enough.
Em Schulz: But it's 3 feet long and metal.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Like, it's, it's not gonna slide by itself. And when he would try to do it, it was not sliding on its own, so.
Christine Schiefer: That's not good. That's not good.
Em Schulz: After that dinner, they then saw that this glass decorative piece was once again in the center of the room.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, gross.
Em Schulz: Still unfazed and unbelieving in ghosts, Lillian spent all of her time in this house, which feels a little like, it's attached to her. Like she didn't really have a reason to ever leave.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Especially the basement, which she felt oddly drawn to.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: And in hindsight was constantly seeing shadow figures walking around in there.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, that's the place for me.
Em Schulz: Yes. One...
Christine Schiefer: Not the billiards room with all the great energy.
Em Schulz: Nope. Just the one where everyone's walking around.
Christine Schiefer: A dank dark basement. Sure.
Em Schulz: One day the vacuum kept turning itself off when she was just trying to vacuum and it kept turning itself off. She was like, okay, if there are ghosts here, you need to fucking stop 'cause I'm trying to clean.
Christine Schiefer: Trying to vacuum.
Em Schulz: Like, like respect that I'm trying to clean your goddamn mansion actually.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Good point.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then the vacuum started working again.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And but she was like, oh, that's funky. But like, didn't take it as a real situation. What made her finally believe was that in the basement, the shadow figures like started to actually... They weren't just her eyes catching something weird.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: She felt like it was intentionally trying to move only when she was looking.
Christine Schiefer: Ew! Okay. That's kind of worse. 'Cause like, at least sometimes I feel like there's a ghost in my house. Like I'm being watched, but I'm like, but I know if I look, it won't be there. You know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because it's like, they don't want... To be like, oh, they want me to look at them. It's horrifying. Like that's just a new level.
Em Schulz: It's like they're only moving when she was looking directly at them.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh! That's so gross. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Forget it, so.
Christine Schiefer: Forget about it.
Em Schulz: A year later, 2009, they've mo... They're moving in officially. And Lillian is totally cool with the idea they're being haunted. She is, has accepted that ghosts are there.
Christine Schiefer: I can't believe they hadn't even moved in yet. In my brain, I, I had to like do a little, I forgot they were still renovating this whole time.
Em Schulz: I would've just been the third family to renovate and leave at this point, just, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Like, bye. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Honestly, I said earlier, like that, that second couple, they moved in in 2000 and renovated, and then got divorced. I wonder if it was like the renovation was hard on their marriage or the fucking ghosts. I wonder if they were...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They were like, Fuck this. And just left.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It sounds like it was bad all around.
Em Schulz: Well, so now they're the third family to have renovated. They're now moving in. It's 2009. Lillian does not give a shit that it's haunted. Although she accepts that it's haunted. Edwin is probably rocking back and forth in a corner somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: No. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And she, by the way, Lillian is now not mentioning things that are happening to her alone to not keep scaring Edwin because she needs him to also be down with this 'cause they put a lot of money on this.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. Yeah. It's too late to go back.
Em Schulz: So dude, that's probably what Allison is doing in this house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: She's like, I'm not saying a damn thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just...
Em Schulz: Because I don't want Em to think there's a ghost here.
Christine Schiefer: Zip it.
Em Schulz: When moving in, the main bedroom was still being worked on. So they slept in a different room that they called the red room. I don't know why it's called the red room.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds bad.
Em Schulz: I can guess it's, it's red. One of the next big signs for Edwin that this place was haunted was that the behavior of their dogs was obviously changing. Umm, their dogs start...
Christine Schiefer: That makes me sad.
Em Schulz: Start growling in the, at the dark. They would cower away from something. They start freaking out over nothing. And they would act like bristled, like if something tried to come near them.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So when sleeping in this red room, Edwin started noticing that the dogs were freaking out like fucking crazy and decided to follow their eye line of what they're looking at. And he saw a clear shadow person walking through the house, like clear enough that you and I would've thought first it was an actual intruder.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. So that's bad news. Bad news.
Em Schulz: He knew it was a real shadow because there was a radio out there with like a, a backlight on it, and the shadow would walk in front of it and the light would go away.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: So it was standing in front of light.
Christine Schiefer: So it was taking the light like it was...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Like a full solid shadow figure.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: Umm, Edwin would see the same figure float by their bedroom every night for two weeks.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: Lillian, unbothered.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I love her. She is so fun.
Em Schulz: I would love to be as fucking carefree as this woman. She's just like, whatever.
Christine Schiefer: I aspire to this level.
Em Schulz: Que Sera, Sera.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I love that.
Em Schulz: Umm, soon even the neighbors start noticing activity, before Lillian gives a shit the neighbors...
Christine Schiefer: Wait a minute. [laughter] Yeah. They're already complaining.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if Edwin starts conspiring with the neighbors to be like, can you convince this crazy wife of mine?
Christine Schiefer: Please.
Em Schulz: Like, come on.
Christine Schiefer: Get me out of there.
Em Schulz: I mean, this is, I... This really does feel like a warning for anyone who's in a relationship with someone who doesn't believe in spirits. It's like, this could happen to you. Look out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Look, that's, uh, cue to both you and me. I think that this is our cry for help, Em.
Em Schulz: I already know that this, I know who I am in this story.
Christine Schiefer: You know the...
Em Schulz: You know who you are.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh.
Em Schulz: So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I'm the adult son, Frank. That's who I am. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And so the neighbors start noticing activity because they start going up to Edwin and being like, oh man, like your wife's dedication to like getting this house done in the winter is crazy. Like, we can see her through the windows painting all the time.
Christine Schiefer: Aah!
Em Schulz: And they, and then Edwin's like, it's been too cold to go into this house. No one's been in there.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not.
Em Schulz: But also, so like, are they also painting? Like, are the ghosts also renovating and like, are they painting over your paint because your paint sucks?
Christine Schiefer: Is that why... Yeah. Is that why they keep pushing that glass decorative thing? They're like, this is so ugly.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, we're decorating... You know what I mean? Like, maybe they're like, your style is...
Em Schulz: Like, what? We got it.
Christine Schiefer: So gauche. You know, we're, we're on it.
Em Schulz: Which does make, it does beg the question of like, if they can move things around or if they can like, create hallucinations, don't you think that they for a second would like make the room like totally one color, just to give you the inspiration?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, just to be like, see?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Instead of like a paint chip, it's like, see what this could be. Oh!
Em Schulz: Or, like they can literally transport you into a dream of yesteryear, they can't give you a dream of what the room should look like?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Great point, Em.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: You don't have to like, so...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe, maybe it's a dream of, yes...
Em Schulz: Passive aggressively paint when we're not looking.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. When we're not looking. And it's like, do you see it once you paint or does it disappear like as a ghost? You know?
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But also I'm like, maybe that vision he had of this like old party maybe that was like, see what you could restore this beauty to?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Look...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe you wanna bring it back.
Em Schulz: Look at the vibes. Don't you love the vibes?
Christine Schiefer: Lack of a toilet. It's great.
Em Schulz: One toilet, 80 people here.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Perfect. What could go wrong?
Em Schulz: [laughter] So anyway, they're all saying, Wow, she's doing a great job painting through the winter and...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: He was like, that's not happening.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Then they said, oh, you never told us you had a son. And...
Christine Schiefer: Aah!
Em Schulz: He was like...
Christine Schiefer: An adult son or child son?
Em Schulz: You mean the grown man always in the bathroom?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Who is that guy, he's obsessed with the toilet!
Em Schulz: [laughter] Umm, but so, they were like, Oh, I didn't know you had a son. And he was like, what are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: They said, ah, the little boy that's always running. Like we can see him through the windows. He's always running from room to room like he's playing a game.
Christine Schiefer: No, absolutely not.
Em Schulz: I like that the game is running.
Christine Schiefer: Running from room to room. Like, okay, that's fun, question mark. Yikes.
Em Schulz: Like clearly an only child. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Aw.
Em Schulz: And so, and he was like, and not only that, but the lights were always turning on and off. So we assumed that some people were at least coming in and out of the house while you weren't really, we thought you were here.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And not only was there no son, the lights shouldn't have been going off and there was nobody painting. But when Edwin, go look at the rooms that this little boy was apparently running through. There's a wall now in between those rooms.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, intriguing!
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Umm, on top of that, Lillian and Edwin are now starting to hear someone playing on their piano at night.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: They can smell something burning in their bedroom.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: Suggestions of spontaneous combustion.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And Edwin would hear a woman singing at night, which ironically would wake him up and then lull him back to sleep. So it was doing both things.
Christine Schiefer: It's like when you get your armpits tickled.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like what in the fuck? Like, it...
Christine Schiefer: Wakes you up and lulls you right back to sleep.
Em Schulz: It's like, which of these do you want? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Umm, and he's having covers yanked off of him while he sleeps.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: That I think honestly would be my line anywhere, like that...
Christine Schiefer: I absolutely agree.
Em Schulz: It's one thing to have something... It's because it's touch and... It's like two senses are being at the same time. Like, you could see it happening and you can feel it happening. It's very vulnerable.
Christine Schiefer: I think I would just be so pissed off. I would be like...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Because it's like I'm trying to sleep and like, that will wake you up.
Em Schulz: No, it's like, to me, I think that's like probably the most like, like actually disturbing. I would ha... I would run like at like a cartoon. I would run out of the house if, if someone pulled the covers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. That would be the most distressing. Yeah, I agree.
Em Schulz: I, like, there's something about it, like, first of all, not respecting physical boundaries, but also when I'm in a very intimate state of like...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Being like not on guard, horizontal...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Under a blanket where like mentally since childhood I've told myself that's where I'm safe.
Christine Schiefer: It's safe. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like... Like I just, every inch of it feels so gross.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're a hundred percent right. It's bad. It's bad.
Em Schulz: So they pull, they're pulling the covers off. They're waking him up and lulling him to sleep. The doors are slamming so loud that the house is shaking. Umm, Edwin's discomfort is growing and eventually he starts seeing a dark shadow swooping towards him, morphing into a man.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And one day he actually looks down the hall and he sees a man in flannel, with dark circles under his eyes and then vanish out of nowhere.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And it freaks Edwin out so much. Sorry, I've got like a, a little nose hair that's freaking me out. If you're watching the YouTube and I just constantly look like I'm picking my nose. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I just keep muting myself to blow my nose. So I think whatever you do is not a problem. Don't worry.
Em Schulz: Something's happening. Umm, anyway, sorry for interrupting. Let me say that again. Umm, his discomfort is growing day by day. He's seeing a dark shadow that morphs into a man. Then down the hallway, he's seeing a man that is dressed in flannel, has dark circles under his eyes, and he vanishes. Edwin is so freaked out by this that he needs to like go get some air. So he leaves the house and walks across the street to...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: I guess like a diner or a gas station or something with like some food to grab.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And there's ambulances outside.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So he talks to the owner. He is like, what happened here? And he said, oh, that man right there, he just had a heart attack and died.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And it happened at the exact same moment that he saw a man appear in his house stare him down and then vanish.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Wait, but was it the same man or was it like a different man just kind of...
Em Schulz: I assume it was the same man.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Based on the way that the story was told.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Ew. So it's almost like this is like the, he died and then like got like transported into this haunted ass house for a moment.
Em Schulz: Like it's... It's like he found like the most, uh, energy magnetic...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Like a gateway type thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Ew, ew, ew.
Em Schulz: Things are also happening to Lillian, again she's keeping them from Edwin. Umm, and they begin researching the Pierce manor and find at least five confirmed deaths somewhere probably closer to seven.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Because Sylvester, his two wives, a daughter-in-law and a granddaughter all died in the house. Eventually Edward, uh, died in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And, umm, and a renter, when it became a boarding house, he also died of smoke inhalation because...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: They think he fell asleep with a lit cigarette on his chest. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: He died that way. There's also rumors, there were some sources I looked at, umm, and they even mentioned it kind of in the TV shows I watched, they kind of mentioned, but there's no solid confirmation that during the 1930s, known as the Great Depression and the youngest son was in charge of it, and he was trying to keep up with it financially, there was rumors that after his family died in the house, he just turned it into like a gambling hall and a brothel.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And if that's true, allegedly one of the sex workers also died in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, but we don't know for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So Edwin and Lillian suspected that the man they keep seeing in the office is also the source of the burning smell and must be the renter who died of smoke inhalation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus. Well, and like the, the fact that that aligns so perfectly with a ghost combust, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Spontaneously combusting. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Forget it. Soon, it's now getting colder because it's getting further into winter. And the couple is using certain stoves to heat the rooms.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Because the old fireplaces are unusable in today's world. So, uh, they were using certain stoves to heat certain rooms and other rooms were just running cold.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: In one of these warm rooms, Edwin wakes up to Lillian humming and she's dressed nicely, which is odd considering her usual routine of not leaving the house.
Christine Schiefer: Not dressing nicely. That's really nice, is it?
Em Schulz: Not dressing... If...
Christine Schiefer: As a husband.
Em Schulz: If Allison saw me dressed nicely though, like...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: She would be like, where are you going?
Christine Schiefer: You're right. Like, what happened? Who died?
Em Schulz: Like if Blaise saw you in a dress, he'd be like, umm, girl, what's happening?
Christine Schiefer: He'd be like, did I forget something?
Em Schulz: Yes, yes. Truly. He probably did have a panic like that. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So anyway, uh, he is like, okay, that's weird. She's in a really good mood. She's dressed up. And he assumed that she was going out for the day and just kind of left it at that.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Or like, had errands to run or was meeting a friend. He, she didn't seem to mind that it, that the rooms she was walking through that day were the really cold ones that didn't have any heat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So he was like, that's kind of weird. And then he even said, where are you going? And she didn't talk to him. She didn't respond.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: So then Edwin's like, okay, she's humming happily.
Christine Schiefer: Bad.
Em Schulz: She's not responding to me. She's dressing out of character. She's going into the colder rooms. Like, she's... Like...
Christine Schiefer: So creepy.
Em Schulz: Feels creepy. Anyway, she, she leaves and he is like, ah, be done with that. Okay, go do whatever you were gonna do. You're freaking me.
Christine Schiefer: Be gone. [laughter]
Em Schulz: While he's doing his own work around the house, he assumes that she'd been gone for hours, but then later goes and sees that her car never left the driveway.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And so he starts looking for her around the house and finds her in the basement digging.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, shut the... In her fucking nice dress? Forget it, I'm out.
Em Schulz: She had been digging all day. Her clothes are filthy. And when he tried to stop her, she screams at him, just leave me alone and let me finish.
Christine Schiefer: I, no, absolutely not.
Em Schulz: Homegirl finds a pelvic bone.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: They take it to the cops. It's discovered that it's not human, it's animal.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But Lillian is somehow disappointed because she then says later she thought that the boy that everyone had been seeing, and like all the neighbors had been seeing in, in the windows.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: She thought the boy was trying to talk to her, or had communicated to her some way that he was murdered and buried in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh dear.
Em Schulz: And she felt that he was giving her signs to find him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh dear.
Em Schulz: Then, we never hear about those previous neighbors, neighbors ever again who saw the boy in the window. But new neighbors move in and immediately, the mom of the... Of the house, the mom of the new family says, oh, my son keeps wondering when your son's gonna come downstairs and play with him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Oh no.
Em Schulz: Because my son keeps seeing the boy...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Up in your window looking down at him. And apparently, this boy is somehow telepathically telling this son who lives across the way, oh, come upstairs. I want to play with you. Let's play.
Christine Schiefer: Abso...
Em Schulz: And so the mom is like...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not.
Em Schulz: I think the mom assumed that this kid had come downstairs at some point, 'cause she was like, oh yeah, he, he tells my son all the time to come play with him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. If kids only knew what they were saying to us.
Em Schulz: Mm. Then they wouldn't tell us.
Christine Schiefer: Then they would not tell us.
Em Schulz: Umm... So then Edwin even talked to the... The new neighborhood boy who confirmed that there was a little boy there upstairs who kept also telling him, not only can you come over and play, but there's a big hallway for us to run in.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh! Imagine talking to that kid and being like, now are you sure it's this house?
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Could it possibly be 705...
Em Schulz: And also like...
Christine Schiefer: Could it possibly be 216?
Em Schulz: And also the hallway you can run in. Imagine if you got to the house thinking I'm gonna run through this big ass fucking hallway. And then there's a wall in the middle of it. It's like, well, this isn't as fun as it was promised to me.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, yeah. And he, the fucking other boy... Well, but then the other boy runs through the wall and you're like, this kid's fucking cool. [laughter] You know, you're like, Oh shit, teach me how to do that.
Em Schulz: It's like he's Harry Pottering this fucking thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. This is amazing.
Em Schulz: So at this point now, the activity in the house is even more undeniable. The window screens will blow themselves in with no wind. Dishes are falling all the time. Doors are opening and closing. Children's footsteps are in the attic. Sometimes the footsteps would run all the way downstairs to the bedroom and then go silent as if it stops right at the room.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not.
Em Schulz: I beg to differ at that point. Just keep running in. Like, it's like what...
Christine Schiefer: You might as well.
Em Schulz: Where did she go?
Christine Schiefer: You might as well.
Em Schulz: One night the dogs were fixated on something on the top of the stairs and Lillian said, all right, look, apparently there's ghosts here. Like, if you really wanna talk to us, just come out and say something like, you're bothering the dogs. If you really wanna be here, just do something about it.
Christine Schiefer: Like own up to it. Right.
Em Schulz: And what she heard back was apparently the most insane demonic roar you've ever heard in your life.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. You hate to hear that.
Em Schulz: Like, you hate to hear a portal open like that.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh, you, you hate to... Invite that into your home by mistake.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Oh. Whoopsie daisies. So Edwin is like, hey, fuck that!
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck that big time.
Em Schulz: Fuck that all the way down. Uh, and said...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: How about I, it's 2009. It's the height of facebook.com.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. You mean the facebook.com? Yeah.
Em Schulz: The Facebook, yeah. The, the book of faces.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And, uh, I'm gonna create me a little Facebook page and I'm, it's gonna be about this house and I'm gonna ask for any information that anyone has on this house, because what on earth is going on here?
Christine Schiefer: I see, I see.
Em Schulz: Paranormal investigators fly to this Facebook page and curious neighbors are now like, I'm sure making it worse with the game of telephone. And basically his inbox is flooded with not only information, but requests to tour it or investigate.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So Edwin begins entertaining investigative teams coming through on overnight stays, which I think is so fun because he was doing it like he, I guess like ghost hunting overnight stays maybe wasn't as popular as, as it is today. So there wasn't like a real etiquette towards it, but he would just stay in the house while they were there. So he would just be like, well, I'm going in for the night and just go upstairs and go to sleep.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, keep it down, boys. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. He would just, uh, hit the hay and let them do whatever they wanted. And he would charge people and the charge and the fees would go to renovating the house.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So he thought he was like doing a, you know, it was all working out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Lillian, however, she was like, well, I don't like these strangers coming in and out of our house. And I'm like, fair, girl. But also, all of your opinions so far are like, are not landing like so far, if it were up to you, we should stay in this house and not do anything about these ghosts. And like...
Christine Schiefer: Like you were disappointed there weren't human bones in the basement. I think we don't trust your judgment anymore.
Em Schulz: Like I get in hindsight and as a third party, I understand she was like just being affected differently by this house. But if I were Edwin, I'd be like, what is going on with my fucking wife? Like I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, get, get a grip, girlfriend.
Em Schulz: It's like, if this can help us at all, like maybe these people could come in and get rid of them.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: You know, like, so I, but I also understand that like, I don't want strangers in our house while we're sleeping. They can fucking rob us, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, to be fair, I don't ever want strangers in my house, so I get it on that note...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Alone. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But at the same time, I think Edwin was like, let me just try to fucking fix this. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, you know, I got to give Lillian some credit. She was like, I don't know about these strangers. They could be up to some shady shit. And a lot of the investigators were not considerate of the fact that this was somebody's fucking house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Let alone probably a historical landmark. If, if not it should be, umm, because...
Christine Schiefer: As people who do ghost hunting, like you and me. It's like when they send those waivers and we, we read them and we're like, wow. Like what? It's so sad they have to write all this in here. Like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Don't break the light fixtures and don't like touch this or that. And don't go into the...
Em Schulz: Well, also people... Yeah, people like...
Christine Schiefer: Locked rooms.
Em Schulz: People wanna steal things like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know, at, at the Whaley house or, or at the Queen Mary, people wanna take something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus.
Em Schulz: The, the amount of times that on, in a, in the stateroom, B340 is that the, the most haunted room?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Queen Mary.
Em Schulz: The, the plaque for like the room, the room door plaque keeps getting stolen. So they just had to stop putting a plaque up, so like...
Christine Schiefer: They don't even label it anymore. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So if you wanna know what room it is, it's the room without a fucking label. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. There you go. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Which works just as good.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: So, uh, anyway, so she was right that some of the investigators were like, not totally, well some were up to some shady shit. Some of them were just disrespectful. Like one of them straight up clogged their toilets, like Frank...
Christine Schiefer: Not the toilet.
Em Schulz: Frank would be pissed. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: You know he came back from the dead just for that.
Em Schulz: He was like, and another thing, umm, not in toilet town, I say. [laughter] So Edwin caught, actually this is like probably the shadiest thing that happened, is he woke up from like a deep sleep one night and just felt like something was off and went downstairs and saw the investigators stealing historical documents from their basement. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: What is wrong? Like, people just can't get a grip, you know?
Em Schulz: But, umm, anyway, she, so Lillian was not down with this, but she could see that the events that he was hosting gave Edwin something to control finally about this house.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And like look forward to. And also probably having more people in the house made him feel safer in some way. Like it just in the power of numbers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like if I were in a haunted house and there was 20 of us, I'd feel a lot less haunted or threatened by ghosts.
Christine Schiefer: Like, like targeted almost. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Than just me. Yeah. So she let them continue, but the more people that investigated, the more active the hauntings became...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Because they were stirring shit up.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So now the houses, there's more growling throughout the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: They're... They're getting EVPs with strange commands like, look under the bed...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, that's, no.
Em Schulz: Something is touching people's hands and faces, and necks. Things are following people home, which like honestly, good. It's now out of my house. You know, like I'd be...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You take it with you.
Em Schulz: If someone was coming into my house to talk to the ghosts that were scary, and now they're leaving with those ghosts, like I'm not gonna say a single thing about that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Take them, take them with you.
Em Schulz: Umm, one woman who was visiting actually got pushed down the stairs and then caught by something else, which like, where there's like, she, she was the monkey in the middle, it sounds like.
Christine Schiefer: I was going to say they're playing monkey in the middle. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh there was also a little...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh, what did I do?
Em Schulz: What, what happened?
Christine Schiefer: I deleted you off the screen by accident. I got too excited about monkey in the middle. You're back.
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter] Uh there was also a little girl who was now being seen in the hallways greeting people.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Oh, she's like, hi, I'm the, I've been hired as the guest liaison. Like, what are you doing?
Em Schulz: They think that she might have been the granddaughter of the Pierces who died in the home. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And she's just saying hi to people.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Some psychics were now coming through, psychics and mediums and they said that they saw a woman who was strangled to death in one of the bedrooms.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Which probably led, came from that brothel story.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm. One of the rooms, it was one of the rooms where women felt most uncomfortable. Go figure.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: They also sense two dark entities in the basement. The young boy everyone was saying allegedly was drowned in the basement cistern.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God!
Em Schulz: And and a psychic also told Edwin that one ghost named Maddie, who used to be, she used to look over the, the Pierce children. She used to work there in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Apparently Maddie is the one who woke him up in the middle of the night to catch the guys and rescue the documents.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. Now that's interesting.
Em Schulz: Another investigator actually said that they got attacked multiple times in that house and got scratched in the shape of the Roman numeral four.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And he actually is like the fourth of his name.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. That's icky. That's really icky.
Em Schulz: Right after he got scratched, the Ovilus said, squeeze every throat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter] that's horrible!
Em Schulz: Forget it.
Christine Schiefer: Our Ovilus always says, orchard.
Em Schulz: Apple.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's always apple and orchard, like fucking...
Christine Schiefer: And we're like, we're not on an apple orchard for the millionth time, machine.
Em Schulz: Like I, I, ugh. Yeah, I never know what to do with it. Every, we've never used the Ovilus and not gotten the word apple at some fucking point, or orchard.
Christine Schiefer: Which like, Em, then I'm like, is that, are we supposed to take note of that? I don't know.
Em Schulz: I'm like, have we been on an orchard every single time? And we just don't know it?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. In the middle of the ocean on the Queen Mary, was there a...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. Exactly. In Long Beach?
Em Schulz: Is this the place of an apple orchard?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I do wonder. I do wonder what if it's, what if the machine is haunted by some like apple orchard farms man, that's not a word. But you know what I mean.
Em Schulz: An apple farmer, a tree man, yeah, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know, a farms man. Like I said.
Em Schulz: A farm... An orchards man.
Christine Schiefer: Are you okay, Christine? No, I'm not.
Em Schulz: So, uh, the same investigator who mentioned Maddie, the ghost who used to watch over the kids, apparently she's still there managing this entire fucking house, trying to take care of all of the other spirits in there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And Maddie has only stepped forward to talk to the psychics to let investigators know that she is losing control of the spirits.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Because she had control of what was currently in the house. But now with all these new investigators bringing things in...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: There's like a whole new group of people. People are coming in and out and she, she can't, she can't do her part on her end. And so now it's coming into our world and affecting us.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, not again.
Em Schulz: Which if Maddie was that astute and like well-spoken, am-amazing. But this also kind of sounds like maybe something a psychic had got pieces of and built a story.
Christine Schiefer: And built a narrative. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a lot of words.
Em Schulz: Or it sounds like someone could have just said Maddie on the Ovilus. And then Zak went, is this...
Christine Schiefer: Is this... [laughter]
Em Schulz: The caretaker of the home who decided that the entire portal is damaged? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And is now losing control of all the spirits. Wait, what is it? Zak? Do we, do you know that, what's happening?
Em Schulz: He loves determining things. You know?
Christine Schiefer: He loves to read in between the lines.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that's the story that like Maddie was saying, like, you got to stop bringing these investigators in.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Because I'm losing control on my end. So you're losing control on your end. Which like if Maddie was here all along, then why were people getting freaked out from the beginning? But okay. Before investigators got there, shouldn't she had a rein on the people who were like spontaneously combusting?
Christine Schiefer: I mean maybe it was... Well, okay. Yeah. That's a little out of control. Maybe she just had some that she was like, I can't like.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She was like...
Christine Schiefer: It's above my grade.
Em Schulz: That guy, I just don't deal with, that that guy...
Christine Schiefer: That guy just... Yeah, forget it.
Em Schulz: You got to just deal with on your own. Anyway, that's the story we're going with. During one investigation umm despite being told, stop doing investigations, even mediums and psychics coming on investigations were saying, stop doing investigations. During one final investigation, a psychic and Lillian at the same time fainted. Umm and then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And then Lillian didn't wake up for three days.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And when she came to, she asked Edwin, why haven't you tried to fucking wake me up or feed me, or see if I need to go to the bathroom or call a hospital? And he also couldn't remember the last three days. He had been in a, a total trance.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, she was in the house this whole time?
Em Schulz: For three days.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought like for sure in a hospital, at least.
Em Schulz: No, she fainted. And then they just, he just brought her, carried her to bed, and she just never woke up for three days. And for those same three days, he was in a trance and completely...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Cannot remember anything about those three days or why he didn't, why he didn't panic.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like a gas leak.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right? Actually, that's a great point.
Christine Schiefer: That's scary.
Em Schulz: From those three days the only thing he remembers is that every night, he would see a woman in white floating upstairs and sobbing uncontrollably.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, I do remember one thing. You're not going to like it.
Em Schulz: That one. It must've been the one who knows how to wake him up from a deep sleep while he... While singing or something.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. She has some sort of stranglehold on these people.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh it's like, he would just, she just lulled them to sleep for three days to like win a contest I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: Umm so a psychic again, then sees a woman behind Lillian with her hand on Lillian's shoulder and takes this as an omen. And around this time is when Edwin and Lillian, maybe the shoulder thing happened first, but the fainting thing and waking up was when they were ready to fucking leave. That was, umm, that was like...
Christine Schiefer: That was too far.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: And they knew that the tours should probably stop too, but they were like, well, one, we can't afford the upkeep or the renovations without doing tours.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And two, if we're not even going to live here, it's not like we're putting ourselves in harm's way. So let's just keep the tours going.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I can understand that.
Em Schulz: However, Edwin, umm they're still looking for a way to get out of there. Edwin is getting angrier. Lillian, one day, this, oh, this was the final straw. Lillian is one day lying in bed. She hasn't even gone to sleep yet, but she just lies down and then realizes out of nowhere, she's fully paralyzed.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And screams for Edwin. She... And the thing that she's screaming is, get her off of me!
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And obviously nobody's there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, Edwin is trying to like roll her or push her because Lillian is like, just get me like, just break me out of this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like something's on me. Just break this. And apparently, it didn't, he couldn't do anything. He couldn't move or he couldn't roll her. It felt like there was somebody else on top of her.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: And only after like significant prayer did it go away after a while.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: This was their final straw. And they moved in immediately with Lillian's sister who I think like the day before closed on her house. She was like, I closed on my house and they went... We're over there.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Guest room ready. All right.
Em Schulz: Well, no longer... Which by the way, she should have seen coming. If she's going to show them videos of their haunted house.
Christine Schiefer: She's the one sending the video. Exactly. Girl, come on.
Em Schulz: So while no longer living there, they continue the tours, including our favorite... Could this be?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Zachary comes.
Em Schulz: Zachary comes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, but not on a tour for certain. He...
Em Schulz: He buys out the whole place.
Christine Schiefer: He buys out the whole place, he's... As he's one, one to do.
Em Schulz: But not enough to let them just finish out the renovations. Just, just enough of whatever he needed.
Christine Schiefer: Just enough. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and so a whole bunch of people do tours. Uh eventually the city made them stop doing tours. I don't know what the drama was there...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But it sounds like there was beef between the psychics and then local investigators.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: And it sounds like that the psychics got the place shut down out of spite. That's what it sounds like.
Christine Schiefer: Well that's...
Em Schulz: Which I...
Christine Schiefer: That's probably what it sounds like...
Em Schulz: More, more drama in Chair City.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Chair City is fucking full of drama. I can't get enough.
Em Schulz: Uh.
Christine Schiefer: TLC get on it.
Em Schulz: I know. In 2015, the building was sold to a Halloween haunted attraction company, of course.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm. But then I guess they don't do that anymore. Or maybe they share their time.
Christine Schiefer: What year was it, you said?
Em Schulz: 2015.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So I don't know if they still do it or not.
Christine Schiefer: I think a lot of places like that closed during COVID too.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right? Today they have reopened for history tours.
Christine Schiefer: Oh cool.
Em Schulz: But, but visitors trying to cleanse the house or talk to spirits is like totally forbidden. You get kicked off the team immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And tours do not include the basement because so many guides refused to go down there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And then when Zachary went, he tried to tell a storyline that there was another person who lived there named Jay Stemmerman, but no sources I saw were talking about. But it's, so he, he like called a researcher who said, you should look into this guy. He sounds like a not so great guy who lived there.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And then another researcher said, uh Jay is what brought in the darkness, but then like refused to comment any further. And you can even see Zak get like upset about it. He was, she was like, I don't want to open that door. And Zak was like, we're, we're here to open the door.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, let me open it. I'd punch it right open.
Em Schulz: Oh, he literally said, but we're here to open the door.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And she was like, no. And then like the, it was immediately over, that that scene.
Christine Schiefer: You know, how distraught he was about that too.
Em Schulz: He was pissed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I'm sure. But so when they go in there, they did actually hear like some pretty serious bangs that made no sense. Shuffling. One of their cameras died. They heard a woman's voice. Something touched Aaron's shoulder. And then they got an EVP of a weird command saying, go to sleep.
Christine Schiefer: Ew! No, thank you.
Em Schulz: And then, and then the spirit box got, he's here. When asked what their name was, he got the name David, uh which was the name they had heard on earlier in their questioning.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: They said, do you remember Edwin? And they got a little girl saying hi, which sounds like a little girl greeting.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Uh do you want us to leave the house? The spirit box said, no. Do you want us to sell the house? The spirit box said, not sure. And then who was the woman who lived here? The spirit box said Lillian.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's interesting!
Em Schulz: And that is the... That's what I got for you on the...
Christine Schiefer: That's, I think, wow. You... That's one of my favorite stories you've ever done, I think, that was a good...
Em Schulz: Ooh!
Christine Schiefer: That was a really good one.
Em Schulz: I was trying to do lightning round. It was double the set of notes that I usually do. And I was worried about time so I was flying through it. Maybe that's what kept your attention.
Christine Schiefer: It, it... [laughter] Maybe. Uh, it was, it was really well done. And honestly, that was one of the scarier ones I've heard from, you know, like, like one of the ones that like to... Actually got to me, which I feel like I've become somewhat jaded over the years, but...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: It freaked me out a bit.
Em Schulz: But anyway, yeah, that's there. There she is.
Christine Schiefer: Very well done.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Now I'm doing something a little different today, Em.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: For the first time ever.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: So we, you and I have both done this together as a planned episode, but I have never really done a whole episode topic that's an update on a previous case.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Like a recap/update.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Today I am doing an extended plus updated version of Gypsy-Rose Blanchard.
Em Schulz: I ought to kiss you on the mouth. Are you kidding me? This is...
Christine Schiefer: Please don't. I'm, I'm very ill [laughter] umm you're not going to feel good afterward.
Em Schulz: Uh. Okay. Brilliant. Brilliant.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah. I, so it felt timely, right? With Gypsy-Rose getting out of prison in December and being all over social media. And of course, when we first covered this case in 2017, by the way, if you're wondering, uh it... It was not, there was no, we barely had a podcast. It was episode 15. Like we...
Em Schulz: Ooh!
Christine Schiefer: We'd only been doing it for like a couple months. And so...
Em Schulz: So this is your actual, like, this is really just fully well done research now instead of...
Christine Schiefer: I got to tell you, maybe one of the reasons I had such a fitful sleep was that before bed, I listened to episode 15 of our podcast.
Em Schulz: You can't do that. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It was a bad idea. I had to, 'cause I was like, I have to know how, how I, but, oh boy and...
Em Schulz: People ask if we listen to our own, own podcast.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And if I were to, I certainly wouldn't go...
Christine Schiefer: Not the old one.
Em Schulz: I certainly wouldn't even touch those. I, back in my reading the Reddit days, people would be like, I'm trying to start And that's why I drink. And I just can't get into it. And I'm like, I'm like, I fucking get it.
Christine Schiefer: I don't understand. And then people would be like, start at episode 50 or like a hundred.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm like, I get it. I also wouldn't like it if I had to start at episode 1. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: And to be fair, like there's like the, My Brother, My Brother and Me podcast, They have 600-700 episodes now. And I remember when I first started listening, I started at episode 1 and everyone was like, that's a terrible idea. And then like, you know, you get...
Em Schulz: Yeah, you got to go...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, start at 250. And I was like, are you serious? But it's a complete shift. Like you can see years of like, they've just developed, you know, in numerous ways. So I just want to give a warning to everybody. Like you can listen to 15. It's like a little meh. I mean, I, listen, it's funny. Like we're funny, I guess, but we, we sound different, Em. Like our voices are completely different. And I know, you know that too. 'Cause we've listened to a couple episodes recently for like research purposes. And we have these like radio voices. It's so troubling.
Em Schulz: Radio voices?
Christine Schiefer: I hear myself sounding like...
Em Schulz: Like a newscaster?
Christine Schiefer: Almost insecure. Like I'm like putting on like a voice, you know.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Maybe we just weren't used to microphones on our face yet.
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't think we were. 'Cause we were like presenting a, like a presenting a paper almost. It was like, it just felt very like, I was nervous, you know, or something.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Well also, like, uh again, like podcasting was not what it is today. Like, I don't think we knew what we were supposed to sound like.
Christine Schiefer: No clue. We were just winging it umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So it's fun for that, like a throwback, but I, I don't want anyone to be like, wow, I'm going to, you know, rethink this podcast after this episode. I will say the first thing I did on the episode is I violated HIPAA.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so that's a good start for me. [laughter] I absolutely started talking about one of Blaise's patients. And I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: This is not a thing I'm supposed to be doing. And I think even in the episode, I was like, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. Anyway... And it's like, what the fuck? And...
Em Schulz: I like that you're like, we sounded like official newscasters also which...
Christine Schiefer: I did not. I did not say that. I said, we sounded insecure. Like we were putting on airs. And that is exactly what we sounded like. Newscasters, farthest thing from it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. I will also add that in the intro, you were very homesick. So I thought that was a fun little uh tidbit.
Em Schulz: Well, that's very lovely.
Christine Schiefer: You said somebody at work had made... Oh, by the way, we both were talking about being, staying late in the office. I'm like...
Em Schulz: LOL.
Christine Schiefer: The office? Uh then you said somebody made, somebody called people with couches in their bedrooms, tacky. And so then you got really upset and homesick because of your home having a couch in the bedroom.
Em Schulz: I, I had a, I had two couches in my bedroom. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So that's extra tech... No kidding.
Em Schulz: No, no, certainly probably so.
Christine Schiefer: No, not for a kid, you know, it's like a... What? Like people are stupid. Okay. And then guess who got introduced? Classic Kevin for the first time.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: He touched the chair in Thirsk, the haunted chair. And that was, I was like, oh. And then I told my story of the white hand for the first time, Carl and the white hand. And I listened back and I was like, I missed like so many big things. Umm and then there was one quote I wanted to like, just leave the... Leave this little uh recap with, which is you saying... [laughter] You literally say, oh, it's actually really fitting today too. You said, Bernardo Flasterstein is on my baby name list. And like, it got me so good. 'Cause I said, there was one doctor named Bernardo Flasterstein. And you said, oh yeah, that's on my baby name list. And it got me really good. And then today with all this talk of Sylvester, I thought it was a fitting little tribute.
Em Schulz: That's... And also uh CK touching the chair when we're talking about Chair City.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, C, K. It's working.
Em Schulz: CK. Does Kei... Does the K stand for Keith or?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe the... K stands for Kevin.
Em Schulz: No, not, not today.
Christine Schiefer: Of course, it stands for Kevin, Sylvester Kevin.
Em Schulz: No, actually, you know what? I think we've figured it out.
Christine Schiefer: See what I mean? Like we should have thought the K Kevin, not Keith. What am I thinking?
Em Schulz: We're idiots. Big, big, dumb idiots.
Christine Schiefer: Nothing has changed. Anyway, it was embarrassing to listen to, but I think it would have been embarrassing no matter what we did or said, because it's us what? Seven years ago? It's...
Em Schulz: Well, I'm very happy that we're talking about umm Gypsy-Rose today because I have been wondering, I, I knew you were gonna because at some point she's all over the place.
Christine Schiefer: It needed... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or and it's almost like, I I, I'm not surprised you're doing it now because I know a lot of times when things are sensationalized, you wait for it to calm down so that we've got all the facts, and she has calmed down a bit.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. She has. It's sort of like, and I will also give major credit to Saoirse for keeping an eye out...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And being like, hey when's the right, because like we both had known, or at least I had known I wanted to cover it for a while. I don't remember like the extent uh to which Saoirse and I talked about it, but I remember them emailing me or messaging me on Slack and being like, I think it's the time. I think it's time. And I was like, you're right, it's time. Umm and so, this is kind of an update because you're right, it kind of calmed down. Umm and you know, the... I just Googled her to see what's going on. Umm just some pregnancy updates on Yahoo News, like nothing too salacious. So I feel like it's a good time to take a little peek uh in the history and...
Em Schulz: Shall we crack into it?
Christine Schiefer: Let's crack into it. Oh, Em, it's like the old times. And you know, it's so funny. We were like 10 minutes into our intro and you said, now we have been talking way too long. I'm not even going to do Milkshake Facts today. We don't have time. And I was like, whoa, okay. And so we like wrapped up the intro and then at the end you were like, stop talking. We have to go. And you were like, and that's why we drink. And I was like, wow, Em is like fucking...
Em Schulz: I used to be more on the clock about it.
Christine Schiefer: You were time, time-sensitive.
Em Schulz: You know why? It's because we had two jobs. I was like, I got to get to bed. Now I just yap and yap.
Christine Schiefer: We got to stay late in the office tomorrow. What?
Em Schulz: I was like, somebody's to be mean about my couches or something.
Christine Schiefer: No, yeah, you needed to be bullied at work the next day. So umm.
Em Schulz: I did. Well... Oh. I have...
Christine Schiefer: I had to rein it in because I was obviously drinking. And then I go, oh, I'm drinking this Chardonnay. It's called Willow Tail or some shit. And I'm like, what am I talking about? I'm like, it's one of my favorites. I'm like, what am I saying? I'm making... I don't even know what that is. I mean, maybe it was my favorite seven years ago, but...
Em Schulz: I will say just to umm give a full up, like a full update all the way through, if I was talking about umm the office back then, if there was somebody I was ever complaining about, I'm sure there's other episodes where I... I'm taking my meds, by the way. Umm. If there was one person or umm prop master I was talking about back then, who used to always bother me.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm well, there's a few of them. But I remember back then always having a problem with this one person. And I will tell you an update that he recently passed away.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And so now I don't know how to feel about it. But if you look... If you listen back to me being particularly cruel about uh any few people, umm one of them might not be here anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Know that they're dead. Thanks, Em.
Em Schulz: Know that... Know that I just... Know that, uh, you know, we saw that through. And now I feel a little guilty about, about what I said.
Christine Schiefer: Now they're haunting Em for eternity.
Em Schulz: No, they, they... Well, I don't know. Maybe. Whatever. Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I'll text you about this later. Okay.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Anyway, that's the update on my old prop life, is that the person I did not like is no longer umm with us. And I don't know how to feel about it.
Christine Schiefer: RIP.
Em Schulz: And that's why I drink, as I sip my LD.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's a good reason. So Gypsy-Rose Blanchard, and as Saoirse added, extended with new information and updates on her release. And if you have not listened to us cover the case on Gypsy-Rose, you do not have to. However, if you don't know the story at all, I would recommend listening to an episode or watching a docuseries or something about it, because umm I do cover the story, but it's not quite as like maybe uh in depth and like, alarming as may be... I mean, it's very alarming, obviously, but I think I'm telling the story now with more of an insight into the actual case versus like...
Em Schulz: Right. Instead of just doing research.
Christine Schiefer: A full cover. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which like, I feel like I'm, I obviously know the story, I know the bare bones of it, but I actively don't watch anything true crime because I know eventually we might cover it.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So if it hasn't been brought onto my TikTok algorithm, I don't know about it, which means I probably actually know the aftermath a lot better than the early part again.
Christine Schiefer: You probably know more about Gypsy-Rose than I do at this point. Umm, I I will say it was, I do feel bad and I want to apologize with a laugh. Like I want to apologize, but also laugh about it, because I can so see now why you have this paranoia of like making a judgment call during my stories. And then because you were like saying that...
Em Schulz: Probably I said something fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: That guy should rot in hell or whatever, then it's like I was clearly baiting you because I, you didn't know the story at all. So I was like telling the story of like, oh, they got, you know, uh Dee Dee Blanchard was murdered and you were like, who could do that to this woman? She's worked so hard. You know, and it's just so funny because I'm like, well, you just didn't know the story. And I set it up to be that way, like a shock twist ending.
Em Schulz: Four hundred episodes. I'm glad I'm finally validated, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, no, I think you've been validated. I think uh, I think everyone kind of felt the energy shift of like you're, you're like, I'm not going to fucking say anything until you tell me.
Em Schulz: I, I've learned to keep quiet, which I I always feel bad about. But, but also it's like, first of all, what am I going to joke about during, if I, if I can't find a way to segue out of your story entirely to make a joke. I just don't make a joke.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And then. I don't know anymore, if you're, if you're pulling one on me. If you're sly.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh! No, I'm still.
Em Schulz: Okay. Syly, for sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, you did make some, we did make some jokes that I think... Looking back, were not outrageously uh inappropriate, but were definitely in poor taste. Like...
Em Schulz: I still think about when, I... Well I don't even want to say it out loud. I still think about some jokes where I'm just like, ooh, I can't believe I did that.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And even some that caught on. And I think all of us and our listeners have also kind of moved past a lot of it. It's almost like we all were like, that's funny. And then like five years later, we're like, maybe not as funny as we thought five years ago. You know, I think everyone's in the same boat. Like we're all kind of learning.
Em Schulz: Nothing, nothing cancelable, but still something I'm not proud of.
Christine Schiefer: Not something I'm proud of, for sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like a... It's like, I'm just comforted that it's episode 15 and genuinely like we didn't really know what we're doing.
Em Schulz: We're, we're, we're officially podcasting through the ages, which means we are lear... We have, we have grown through from episode 1.
Christine Schiefer: I like to think so. I like to think so. Umm and so, is that, do you have a butler? Is that Allison or is that a butler?
Em Schulz: What just happened? What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Well, are you, what are you doing when you do this?
Em Schulz: Oh, there's a shelf here. I'm putting my drink on a shelf.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. You keep looking and like almost smiling, and it looks like you're just handing it off. And then when you go your...
Em Schulz: I'm, oh I'm just, I'm smiling, I think, because I'm just happy to not have to hold it anymore. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: When you're, when you were handed the pills, I was like, oh, somebody just handed Em pills. And then you like, it looked like you handed it back to somebody and kind of like looked at them.
Em Schulz: No, it, it does look exactly like...
Christine Schiefer: And then you said, and the reason I say butlers, because uh while I was blowing my nose, everyone, fun fact, Em was telling me that Allison has jury duty.
Em Schulz: Oh [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And so I was like, wait a minute, who, do you have a butler? Am I like missing out on a huge update, life update?
Em Schulz: No, the only thing that's here is uh.
Christine Schiefer: It's a shelf.
Em Schulz: It's a shelf. And there's okay, actually, I was going to complain about...
Christine Schiefer: Imagine episode 15. And now we have butlers. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If someone heard like just started here and then yeah. Umm, no, I actually was going to, this is one of the reasons why I drink is because I went to Sleepy Hollow. I'm... Dragged Tanner with me. I was like, I'm going to Sleepy Hollow on principle and I'm getting something that says, Sleepy Hollow on it, in Sleepy Hollow because there is Tarrytown. Yes, I know. Technically, they're kind of the same. But I was like, I need to go Sleepy...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I bought you a bunch of shit. I thought you weren't going back to Sleepy Hollow. So Eva and I were like on a mission.
Em Schulz: Did you get me stuff?
Christine Schiefer: A bunch of shit.
Em Schulz: Thank God, because here's my story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: We went to, we went to Sleepy Hollow and I had given the weekend to my aunt. And on the, on my Monday, I was going to go with Tanner to Sleepy Hollow and do all the stuff. Sleepy Hollow is, in fact, quite sleepy and shuts down everything, everything. And so the only store that was open that had anything with the word Sleepy Hollow on it was a bike store. So I got a water bottle. It said, Sleepy Hollow Bikes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, don't worry, I've got you covered. Don't worry.
Em Schulz: I literally, I had, that was all I could find.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. This is so comforting because I bought so many things because I wasn't sure which ones to give to you. So now you can have your pick.
Em Schulz: Okay. But also I, and we're seeing each other next week. Am I seeing Leona next week?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Are you sure?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, 'cause they're in. Well, no, maybe in New Hampshire, though.
Em Schulz: Because I have a present for Leona.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: And maybe we can do a swap where I could...
Christine Schiefer: She'll be in New Hampshire with us.
Em Schulz: Great. Okay. So super duper. Umm we'll do a present swap.
Christine Schiefer: Aw, she is not going to like the swapping part, where she has to give you something but...
Em Schulz: No, she'll like it. It'll be worth it. She'll like it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, great.
Em Schulz: Cool.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. So anyway, tell your butler to keep it down.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because I'm going to cover Gypsy-Rose Blanchard umm and I'm going to give her a little recap. Uh it, it's some of it is exactly the same as what I talked about in episode 15. A lot of it is new. So let's just dive into it.
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: Gypsy-Rose. She was born on July 27th, 1991, umm which incidentally is a fact that she would not know for most of her life. Her father, Rod, was only 17 when he found out that his girlfriend, Claudine, who went by Dee Dee, was pregnant with Gypsy. And so he's 17. Dee Dee tells him she's only 21. However, she was actually 24. So she's already lying.
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: Like early, early on. Rod married Dee Dee because he's 17. He thinks that's the right thing to do. She's pregnant. But then on his 18th birthday, he kind of gets cold feet. He's like, we're not getting married for the right reasons. This is a bad fit. So, you know, I don't, we don't really love each other. So they separated. But he wanted to insist on supporting Dee Dee through the pregnancy and supporting his future child. So they separated, and Dee Dee moved in with Gypsy to her parents' house. And Rod actively remained involved in Gypsy's life, umm made child support payments, you know, would take her on trips, was like, very, tried to be as present as he could. When Gypsy was three months old, Dee Dee called Rod and told him that Gypsy had sleep apnea and often stopped breathing in her sleep, which I will say as a parent now, I do understand that anxiety because there's so much talk around SIDS and, and umm.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, sleep, the correct way to sleep, sleep on your back. Don't let them suffocate. You know, they can... There's so much scary, I don't want to say fear mongering because some, it's very, it's a valid fear, but there's a lot of uh stress around that topic. So I can imagine that that could be a big trigger for somebody with like health-related anxiety.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh and so she told Rod, hey, Gypsy has been stopping breathing in her sleep. Umm. She has sleep apnea. And all of the tests, she did all these tests on on baby Gypsy, they all came back negative. But Dee Dee insisted that something was wrong. So as a result, because I guess that wasn't enough, she told people that Gypsy actually had a chromosomal genetic disorder. So think Down syndrome, trisomy 13 and 18. Uh and, you know, Dee Dee didn't specify which chromosomal genetic disorder Gypsy had. And, you know, it is true that some people have genetic conditions that are so rare, they don't even have a proper name, but it just didn't seem quite right, because it, it didn't seem as if Dee Dee specifically discussed like this rare, unknown condition. She was just more vague about it than anything and just said like, oh, it just causes all these issues, rather than like being specific.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: After that, things quickly spiraled. And when Gypsy was very young, she was in a motorcycle accident with her grandfather. And even though she only had like scrapes and bruising, it was very like artif... Or superficial injuries. Umm.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Dee Dee kind of took that and ran with it and put Gypsy in a leg brace.
Em Schulz: Oh, my.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Then she brought home a wheelchair. She told Gypsy to use it for a few weeks after her motorcycle injury, but then a few weeks turned into months until Dee Dee would not allow Gypsy to walk at all anymore.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I remember one thing I mentioned in episode 15 is that uh Dee Dee would tell people, you know, that uh Gypsy had this muscular dystrophy umm and she had this genetic disorder, this muscular dystrophy genetic disorder, which, you know, makes you slowly lose muscle mass throughout your body over time. And Gypsy, looking back, had said something like, I had perfectly healthy muscles until she made me sit in a wheelchair for years and not eat proper nutrition.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And, you know, then my body deteriorated as a result.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it was like its own umm, uh self-fulfilling prophecy in some way of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, yeah, you're right. I can't walk. But it's also you made sure I can't walk. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're making me sick. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So Dee Dee also said Gypsy was diagnosed with severe asthma and that she experienced frequent seizures. She couldn't own uh, earn her own money because she needed to be Gypsy's full-time caretaker at home. So instead, she received supplemental security income, SSI, due to Gypsy's disabilities. She received food assistance and a lot of Gypsy's medical expenses, which I imagine were quite high, and we'll get into that, were covered by Medicaid. So that's kind of how their life was set up. Dee Dee, as far as like her friends and neighbors, they always loved her, which I find so interesting because looking back, pop culture only knows her as a villain and then a murder victim.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, and it's sort of like so weird to hear.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but it's, it's nice to know where it like, where it all began.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. She ve... She definitely was good at bamboozling people. Umm she clearly was uh good at this. She was considered very compassionate, very personable. She made a lot of friends really easily. She was very like social, so she would have like parties and people over and she, she just loved like relishing in the attention of having this sick child and saying, oh, despite all we faced, like all we're up against, you know, we still persevere...
Em Schulz: Well 'cause when people are patting you on the back, you're like, oh, what a light, what a... She still, she still has her charm despite all of her tragedy. You know, like it's such...
Christine Schiefer: Oof. Oh so much tragedy. Yes.
Em Schulz: It's people treating you like a martyr.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, completely. Completely. And celebrities like Miranda Lambert, uh, even famously visited Gypsy and gave them a check for several thousand dollars. Uh, Rod, who had remarried, a woman named Kristy. So this would be, uh, Gypsy's stepmother, sent $1,200 a month to Dee Dee for Gypsy's, like care, you know, as the dad.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Something he continued doing even after Gypsy turned 18, and he wasn't legally obligated to, Kristy was very encouraging of Rod's relationship with her step... Her stepdaughter, and he would call Gypsy on the phone. He would send her presents, and she never really asked for anything specific, but Dee Dee would call Rod and be like, oh, Gypsy wants game consoles and all these expensive things.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And, you know, he would mail them over, but it wasn't actually anything Gypsy had asked for herself. So, you know, Dee Dee was kind of using him in that way. Rod and Kristy were very supportive of Gypsy. They sent a lot of, umm, money her way. They tried to support her through her medical treatments and assessments. They tried to see her as often as they could. Umm, and it was just heartbreaking to them that this little girl had to endure so much pain. And that all escalated when Gypsy was only eight years old. And Dee Dee called them and said the heartbreaking news that Gypsy had just been diagnosed with leukemia.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Every day, Dee Dee gave Gypsy a variety of medications, like dozens of them, which she told her was cancer treatment. And Gypsy, being eight years old, how's she supposed to know any different?
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: I mean, I, you just take it. You just...
Christine Schiefer: You just do what your mom says.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She only knew that above all else, her mother loved her and would do anything for her. And so she just did what her mom told her to do. And during Gypsy's supposed cancer treatment, Dee Dee brought a new concern to Gypsy's pediatrician. And that was that Gypsy wouldn't eat. Dee Dee claimed Gypsy wouldn't eat at all because she was so anxious about eating that she barely ate. And they thought it sounded a lot like ARFID, which, umm, thank you, Em, for teaching me how to say that properly.
Em Schulz: I only... I have a step sibling who has it, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I, uh, it's actually stands for Avoidant/Restrictive Food Intake Disorder. Umm, and this is a condition that causes people to avoid food intake, so avoid eating due to severe anxiety. And they diagnosed her with that. Umm, Gypsy then received a feeding tube, which required surgery to create an opening in her abdomen. And instead of chewing and swallowing her food, and remember, this girl has no problem with food. Her mom's just inventing it.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So now she has a feeding tube, even though she's a perfectly...
Em Schulz: If she would eat, she...
Christine Schiefer: Has a perfectly normal appetite. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So was, do we know if this was like a way to like, keep her like slim and trim of, like...
Christine Schiefer: Just dependent, I think just another illness.
Em Schulz: Okay. I didn't know if this was like on top of it all too. It was like a...
Christine Schiefer: No, I think, I mean, she was always very small and very weak. So I think a lot of it was to keep her kind of under her thumb.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So maybe not skinny, but like small and maybe malnourished a bit. And, and dependent.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I think dependency was the big thing because, I mean, I mentioned this later, but...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Gypsy thinks about running away and she go, thinks, oh, I'm being fed through a feeding tube. How am I supposed to run away? You know, it's like you're just dependent.
Em Schulz: Well and the whole point of Munchausen by proxy too, is like being needed, is like...
Christine Schiefer: Being needed. Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: So, yeah, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like she's just gonna escalate, escalate, escalate. And a lot of times these cases tragically end in death because...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Where else can you go? You know? Umm, and so she would have liquid nutrition directly fed into her stomach through this feeding tube. Umm, and also, this is also a disturbing thought, her mother could distribute...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. Her mother could administer medication through, through this feeding tube.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So her mom was able to kind of have even more say on what was consumed and what wasn't. Like it's, there's not even the chance of like me, you know, spitting out my Flintstones vitamins and hiding them in my pocket like I used to do 'cause they made me throw up. Uh.
Em Schulz: Right now it's just directly into the bloodstream.
Christine Schiefer: It's just you had... You... She had no choice.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So this gave Dee Dee absolute control over Gypsy, who could no longer eat on her own. One day, Dee Dee, she broke her leg and she had to go to the hospital while she recovered. So Gypsy stayed at home with her grandpa and his second wife. So this would've been not her biological grandmother, but her step-grandmother. And Dee Dee very much disliked this woman, probably 'cause she had some, saw some red flags, maybe.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: But either way, Gypsy's family, her grandpa and her step grandma were shocked when Gypsy stayed with them and was eating normally and comfortably the entire time Dee Dee was in the hospital.
Em Schulz: Oop.
Christine Schiefer: And then literally jumped on a trampoline with some other kids, like...
Em Schulz: With her legs that don't work.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. She ate happily. She had no issue, no aversions to food. She could walk fine, she jumped on a trampoline. But when Dee Dee came home, of course, Gypsy had to return to her wheelchair and rely on her feeding tube again. And so then Dee Dee's family is like, okay, these red flags are getting out of hand. Like how many...
Em Schulz: It's not a red flag anymore.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: We... We know what's going on now. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. But, you know, at the same time, they've known Gypsy-Rose as being sick her whole life. And so they're not thinking, oh, all of it's fake. They're thinking like, how much of this is being exaggerated? Like...
Em Schulz: Right. Or like, is she getting better and like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. And and she's not...
Em Schulz: Where she's seeing signs of that.
Christine Schiefer: 100%, like, is she, is she just not being affected by certain things? But her mom won't let her, you know, explore 'cause she's too worried about her health or her safety. So it was like, how much of it is bullshit? That was their word. Uh, and how much of it was real? Like it's, and it's hard to tell, especially when she is sick because her mother is making her sick. So it's like, technically she's unwell, but it's for different reasons than leukemia.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Gypsy did not even go to school. Umm, I imagine that was another control issue. Dee Dee claimed she homeschooled Gypsy, but the family knew that was not true. Umm, and then weirdly enough, Gypsy's, step-grandma began to fall ill. And she had these unusual and inexplicable symptoms. And then one day, little Gypsy saw a bottle of Roundup brand weed killer and said, oh, vitamins.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And when grandma and grandpa asked, Hey, honey, why are you calling those vitamins? She says, those are the vitamins Mommy puts in grandma's food.
Em Schulz: Interesting. I'm a... I'm surprised that they even clocked that because I would've just thought, oh, a little kid holding anything. They could think like, oh, I'm supposed to just put this in my mouth. Like, I guess...
Christine Schiefer: Well, she's not that little. She's like, I don't know, what? 10 or something. Like, she's old enough...
Em Schulz: Oh oh oh oh.
Christine Schiefer: Where she's like, not just saying words. Like, she's like, oh, that's what Mom puts in the food.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, uh, but she doesn't know enough to realize that's poison, you know?
Em Schulz: Right. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but the fact that her mom was like, oh, don't mind me, honey, I'm just putting vitamins in. And like, doesn't even think to hide it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, ugh, so disturbing. Umm, so of course they come to this horrific realization that Dee Dee is poisoning her own stepmother. Umm, and so they kick her out of the house. And this unfortunately affected both Dee Dee and Gypsy very badly. Umm, they had years of housing insecurity. Umm, they moved many times throughout Gypsy's childhood. And as they moved farther and farther away, and over periods of time, it became increasingly difficult for Rod to visit his daughter.
Christine Schiefer: So in 2005, Gypsy and Dee Dee are living in New Orleans, and Hurricane Katrina blows through, and their apartment complex was utterly destroyed. So they moved into a shelter for over a month. Dee Dee neglected to contact any family even when she had the chance. I think she, looking back, the theory, the assumption is that she liked this feeling of, oh, these people are all wondering if we're okay and alive, you know, and...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just gonna let, leave them hanging. So they're, Rod and Kristy are desperately trying to track them down. As many families were back then in '05, I remember how horrific that was. Umm, and she's just actively not staying in touch, uh, telling, not telling Rod his daughter's alive. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah, just loving the attention.
Christine Schiefer: Just loving it, just loving being chased, you know? And the storm killed over 1300 people. So, you know, this isn't... No laughing matter. And due to Gypsy's disabilities, as this happened so often through her childhood, relief workers found a special place for them to live at a hospital. And they were flown there by a helicopter. So her mom, of course, is like, eating this up, right? Like, oh, we get special attention. We get to be flown around in a helicopter. We get our own special space in the shelter. Umm, and so it's just this vicious cycle. Umm, over the years, they had had many charitable accommodations. Umm, for example, Ronald McDonald nonprofit housing, umm, which a lot of us know is provided for families of children undergoing medical treatments. Umm, we already said the Miranda Lambert thing, just a lot of like special treatment. Umm, not probably in the eyes of Gypsy, but at least in the eyes of her mother.
Christine Schiefer: So in Missouri, Dee Dee began seeking new diagnoses and treatments for Gypsy because I guess leukemia wasn't enough. I don't know. Umm, and she just had to get her fixed somehow. And she had a blank slate with a team of new doctors because she told everyone, which I definitely mentioned in episode 15, that all her medical records had been washed away in Hurricane Katrina. So she basically used that as a convenient excuse to say, everything is gone just trust me and my history.
Em Schulz: Oh, it actually, it, it worked, uh, beautifully. Like I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Scarily well.
Em Schulz: To talk... I mean, that's, that really is such a... It was almost like a, a blessing for her specifically.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Of like, oh, well now doctors have to listen to me and I can make this...
Christine Schiefer: It fit her narrative so perfectly.
Em Schulz: I mean, she might as well have tripled the shit that was going on in her file of like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she sure did.
Em Schulz: Oh, she did? Okay, great.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she did, she started adding new diagnoses. She, like, for example, she even said that Gypsy's birth certificate was gone. So she's like, now I can invent any birthday I want for my child.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Just like, just sick. And by the way, it wasn't true. Like, she still had this stuff, but doctors didn't need to know that.
Em Schulz: I, this is not your, your, your forte of research. I don't expect you to know this, but do you know if she ever, well, she, she, I, we know what happens to her. So I guess there was no interviews on her end about like knowing she was wrong. I guess my thought is like...
Christine Schiefer: It's so funny you asked that in episode 15 too.
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I guess I don't change all the time, but, I I do wish, umm, I wish I knew if she felt any fucking guilt about this at all. I'm sure Gypsy-Rose also feels the same way, umm, but, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know, I know. I'm just thinking.
Em Schulz: I'm just like, man, like, like it's one thing to be doing things and like, kind of just make up lies and maybe not have to pay attention to all you're saying, but when you're actively doing stuff like that, like you have to know what you're doing is wrong or you have to like, but I don't...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I mean.
Em Schulz: I mean, we'll never know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just, I'm looking now into just like a brief scan, umm, of Munchausen by proxy. Uh, it's hard to tell, and I think it's such a vague, it's a hard thing to diagnose in a person.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so I think it's not even necessarily fully understood. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, folks, if there's, uh, you know, somebody who knows, which I assume much more than I do about this. Umm, but I do really think, uh...
Em Schulz: They probably think they're being more helpful than they're not, or something.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. I think like it's because it's a mental illness. Like, I think, umm, there's an element to it of like delusion maybe, or just like, not fully understanding, but also like, they're very aware they're wrong. You know? Like they know they're wrong 'cause they hide shit.
Em Schulz: Mm. Yeah. But maybe they think like oh, well I...
Christine Schiefer: And they change their names and they lie to doctors.
Em Schulz: Maybe it's also, I mean, part of that, like that well, I know, I know better than doctors, so I'm just going to say like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm rambling for no reason.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause it... Well, but it's like, I know my child better than anyone, you know, and it's like...
Em Schulz: Yes. That's what I'm trying to say.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. No, and I totally get that. And, you know, it's hard because it's abuse. Absolutely. Umm, and there's no way to excuse it. But at the same time, it's also a mental disorder. So it's like.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It seems like a very messy situation.
Em Schulz: Whoo!
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and I, I, I apologize for not giving a clearer answer. Uh...
Em Schulz: No. I, I literally...
Christine Schiefer: I was hoping you would ask.
Em Schulz: Started with I don't expect you to know.
Christine Schiefer: I was hoping you'd ask because you asked in episode 15, and I was like, I have no... I was like, I don't fucking know. I still don't know.
Em Schulz: I like how you knew I would, I might ask again. And you still didn't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, there's not really an answer. Like, I did, listen, I actually did study this a little bit because I listened to, umm, so Something Was Wrong, the podcast, they had an expert come in to talk about, I think it was an expert, I forget who, who it was, but somebody came in with a lot of experience in this field to discuss Munchausen by proxy. And I listened to that and I learned a lot.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: But also I learned how convoluted it gets... How hard it is to pinpoint how hard it is to diagnose, and how little it's understood. Umm, and so it's just one of those things where you don't really get a clear answer no matter how much you kind of look into it.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and like you said, there's no way to check in with Dee Dee.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And even if now she was in prison and she said, oh, I feel really guilty. It's like, well, does she or not? Like, we don't even know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I...
Christine Schiefer: Even if she said she did, to, to save face, who knows.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't, I don't think, I don't think that's something that you ever really fully recover from.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think she would ever have even admitted it. Even faced with the facts.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think she's been like, oh, well, they're persecuted. She would've turned to the victim, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't think she would've ever even admitted to it. I don't know that that's just an assumption. But, umm, yeah, my theory is she would never have even gotten as far as to say she felt guilty 'cause she claimed she did nothing wrong. That's my, that's my theory, because it seems like that's...
Em Schulz: Fair enough.
Christine Schiefer: How she lived her life. Umm, so yeah, that being said, she started looking for new treatments and diagnoses for Gypsy. Umm, she had a full blank slate, like I said, with this new team of doctors telling them all the medical records had been, uh, vanished and washed away by Katrina. And so Gypsy had all these biopsies and examinations done, and they all came back normal. And because of this, one of her doctors, and I'm pretty sure this is fucking Bernardo Flasterstein, and that's how this name came up, he began to question all these diagnoses. He considered it another red flag that Dee Dee didn't know the exact nature... Remember how I said she was always so vague about things?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He was like, why wouldn't you know the exact nature of her cancer or the length of chemo she's been on, or the length of treatment?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, why wouldn't you know that as the mother who's so involved in her health, like it's shady that you're not giving me the details.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so when a nurse then came forward and presented him with three different files she had gotten about Gypsy all with a different birth year, not just a different birth day, but a birth year. He...
Em Schulz: Whoopsies.
Christine Schiefer: Became convinced that she had been kidnapped. He thought she's...
Em Schulz: Bernardo was so fucking on top of it.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And so he really thought like, something is very wrong here. And so he sent the Department of Family Services to their home, and he told Dee Dee that, uh the Department of Family Services told Dee Dee they needed to obtain a valid birth certificate. Uh, but of course, she didn't have it. She said it washed away in Katrina, and the report kind of got just put in the cabinet somewhere, and it was never followed up on. And she left and went to a new doctor. So it's like, you know, he could have maybe followed up, but like, at that point, what can you do? You've already called the authorities. You've already put your concerns in, written them on paper.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's like at a certain point, I, and I don't wanna say like, oh, I'm just vouching for all the doctors that didn't, I, I just don't know what more you could have done. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So knowing she was now under suspicion after the Department of Family Services came by, Dee Dee simply took Gypsy to a whole new doctor's office. And this was just her MO, the second, like anybody raised an eyebrow, she was just out of there. She would change their, her own name several times. Umm, she would often max out other people's credit cards before leaving town. And there was actually a warrant out for her arrest for writing bad checks. So she would just pack up and move the second anything kind of went wrong. Umm, and so wherever they would end up next, Dee Dee would like immediately charm her neighbors. Umm, she was always thought of as the most dedicated doting parent anyone could possibly be. And of course, everyone also fell in love with Gypsy because she was so upbeat and always smiling. And according to Dee Dee, Gypsy, this is what she would tell the neighbors, you know, who were like, what? Oh, tell us more about your daughter.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And she would say, Gypsy, when she was born, suffered this traumatic brain injury and she's intellectually disabled, and so therefore she has the mental capacity of a 7-year-old. And so she encouraged Gypsy to pursue things like Disney and Barbies, and very like little kid, uh, interests.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because, umm, she wanted her to come off as very young and infantile.
Em Schulz: Well, infantalized. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And so she often dressed Gypsy up in these princess costumes. Like if you look back at a lot of the photos and videos...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She's always wearing like princess wigs and princess costumes. Umm, and so she didn't have many regular clothes. She only had like a Cinderella dress, a yellow old dress.
Em Schulz: I wonder if now in hindsight, she like, can't, she like refuses to fucking watch a Disney movie.
Christine Schiefer: I can't imagine how over it you would be. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I know. Or like...
Christine Schiefer: It's gotta be very triggering.
Em Schulz: Or like, uh, costume parties or like Halloween or something.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It's like, oh, I, the last thing I wanna fucking do is...
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna put on a wig ever again. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. So she would wear these big wigs, these like curl, and they were like very oftentimes obvious wigs 'cause she's also wearing the matching dress... Like princess dress, you know? And so she would shave Gypsy's head, Dee Dee would, and say, well, your hair's gonna fall out due to your medications anyway, so we might as well keep it neat and shave it down.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And so she shaved her head regularly. Umm.
Em Schulz: And what a way to, umm, excuse her ever having to find out that her hair can grow.
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Although, wouldn't, I, I'm, I'm wondering if one of the signs Gypsy caught onto was like, my hair's still coming in buzzed. Like, we still have to keep cutting it. Like...
Christine Schiefer: I guess, but how would you even know any different, like, you wouldn't know how a "normal" person's hair comes in.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I don't wanna say normal, but like a, a cancer-free person, I feel like if her mom says like, oh, wow, it's looking really thin.
Em Schulz: That's true. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You just kind of believe her, you know? And it's like, she's so manipulative.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like for a long time. I mean, you're right. I think eventually she really definitely, I mean, we know she definitely started to question things. Umm, and I think for a long time her mom would just manipulate her.
Em Schulz: She's got excuse after excuse.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Excuses for everything. So in 2008, Dee Dee and Gypsy finally moved into a house of their own, built by Habitat for Humanity and custom made to accommodate Gypsy's wheelchair. I mean, just so fucking heartbreaking. One, that this girl's not even sick. I mean, now she is, but right. Like, naturally she's not even sick and she's being forced into all this. Two, there's so many people who are sick and, and disabled and need...
Em Schulz: Like, that money could've gone to... That home...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Could've gone somewhere else.
Christine Schiefer: To somebody who really needed it and not someone taking advantage. It's just so fucked up.
Em Schulz: I wonder like if, if Dee Dee were alive today, how many organizations would be like suing for, for money.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Great point.
Em Schulz: You know, of like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, the number of Make A Wish. They did everything. They did all of those. Ronald McDonald, I mean, it's like they're charities. So like, are they gonna be able to sue for.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And like, does she have the money? No. So I don't know if, but, but it's gotta not feel good.
Em Schulz: I wonder what lawsuits would look like today if, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I do too. In one interview, Gypsy sat beside Dee Dee beaming and said to the camera, it just proves that happy endings aren't just in fairytales. They're real. And like, I remember seeing this clip and thinking to myself, that's not a thing a kid says. Like, that's what somebody tells them to say like that...
Em Schulz: Yeah. That was scripted, for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Of course. Right. And then like, she later said, yeah, my mom told me to say that. And I was like, yeah. Like, even in the moment it felt weird. Like, yeah, why would you say that?
Em Schulz: Yeah. We all, we all looked at each other and went, huh?
Christine Schiefer: Huh?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like cute, right? 'Cause she's like, oh, fairytales are real. And she had this very high pitched, I mean, if you've seen any of these clips or heard her voice, you know, but she had this kind of very high-pitched voice. Umm, Dee Dee was, as usual, very popular in their new community where this house was built. She often hosted movie nights with a projector in their yard because the neighbors couldn't afford to send their children to the movie theaters.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she would charge for concessions and then like, take the money as a fundraising effort to, to go toward Gypsy's medical care. So of course, as the neighbors, you're thinking, this is amazing. Like, my neighbor's hosting these movie nights and we pay a couple bucks for Skittles, and we're saving a ton of money, but all our money's going to this good cause.
Em Schulz: And she was just pocketing it.
Christine Schiefer: And she's just pocketing it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so everyone in the neighborhood, you know, went out of their way to support Dee Dee and Gypsy. And of course, if you have like, Habitat for Humanity building your house, like no one's gonna question you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. No one's questioning. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's like "official"
Em Schulz: 'cause you're an asshole if you question that.
Christine Schiefer: Of course. Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're 100% right. I bet you that was part of the fear too. So of course, on the outside, it all seemed like sunshine and roses, and they're, you know, making, making it work. And, and despite the odds, like fighting this uphill battle. But of course, as we know now at home, it was not all it seemed. Gypsy would often argue with her mother about her treatments and her alleged ailments. And Dee Dee would punish her. She emotionally manipulated Gypsy until she was convinced that the only way to receive love and affection was by being submissive. She was made to feel that if she didn't obey her mother, Dee Dee would just abandon her.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And she needed two dozen medications at this point, daily. And she ate through a feeding tube. So like, she couldn't just be risking abandonment.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, she had nowhere else to turn. Which...
Em Schulz: How old is she at this point?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so this is 2008. So she would've, she's my age.
Em Schulz: So 17.
Christine Schiefer: 17. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, at this point, she knows, she's like in that teenage rebellious spirit, but she can't do anything about it because it's not just...
Em Schulz: Yeah. There's only so much you can test.
Christine Schiefer: Right? And it, right. And it's not just testing whether you'll be grounded, it's testing whether you'll survive. Like life or death, you know?
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so she also, at this point, even though she's 17, thought she was still a child, she thought she was 14.
Em Schulz: Oh my.
Christine Schiefer: Actually she thought she was 13, turning 14. And then on her 18th birthday thought it was her 14th birthday, and her dad called to wish her a happy birthday and made some joke about like, now that you're an adult. And her mom talked to Rod privately and said, you can't say stuff like that. She doesn't know how old she is.
Em Schulz: And he didn't think that was weird?
Christine Schiefer: He did. He thought that is a huge red flag. And he started getting concerned, thinking, what do you mean she doesn't know? Like, because she kept saying, oh, she's intellectually, you know, stunted and all this. And she, she's not quite, but that's just...
Em Schulz: That's why he kept paying for things after she turned 18 to like, keep with the ruse?
Christine Schiefer: No, I think he just thought she's very, very ill. I mean, he didn't...
Em Schulz: He was just being a good dad. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He hadn't... Oh, no, he hadn't questioned any of this yet. He's like, that's weird. Like, even though she's, you know, supposedly has this brain injury that can't.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And she has the mind of a 7-year-old, like even a 7-year-old knows they're 7 or like.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, 14. It just, that part definitely was a red flag for him. But keep in mind, he has believed since this baby was three months old, that this is a very, very, very frail and sick child. And so, like...
Em Schulz: I can't imagine what he thought when he found out too.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Even at this point, he's thinking, well, that's weird, but not like, oh, all of this is fake. Just like, well, she's this kind of a strange...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Facet of this illness that she doesn't know how old she is. Like that's weird. But Dee Dee was obsessed with infantalizing Gypsy, umm, just another control tactic. For example, when Gypsy had her first period, Dee Dee refused to tell her about pads or tampons and made Gypsy wear diapers.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And said like, this is what you do. And it's just so sad.
Em Schulz: Well, also if you believe that you're that sick bleeding at this point must be like, just like...
Christine Schiefer: Just like another fucking...
Em Schulz: Oh well, another illness.
Christine Schiefer: Another symptom, right.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like, wouldn't even consider it part of puberty.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. It's just so sad. And then you think you're years younger.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So even though like it is puberty, you're probably like, oh my God. Like, I don't know about this.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Gypsy still bathed with her mother at 18, slept in the same bed. She had very little privacy. She had no control over her life. She learned that if she didn't question Dee Dee, her life was peaceful, happy, content. Her mother treated her nicely. Umm, and if she questioned or spoke up, uh, she just was too terrified of the consequences. She had, uh, received enough punishments and consequences that she knew better than to test the waters. Umm, for example, some of the punishments were highly invasive medical procedures, which is...
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, my worst nightmare. Umm, for example, she started putting numbing gel on Gypsy's gums before doctor's visits. So that Gypsy would start drooling, salivating before, umm, before doctor's visits, which is a symptom of muscular dystrophy. And as a result of this, a surgeon removed Gypsy's salivary glands. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It gets worse. So saliva, the reason we have it is to protect our teeth from decay. And so as a result of her salivary glands being surgically removed, her teeth began to deteriorate, and she had to have 16 of her teeth extracted until she was wearing dentures.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and just fun fact, that's half... That's half of your teeth. So Gypsy, also, this is the worst one, uh, underwent numerous eye surgeries, invasive eye surgeries, because her mother told her to lie about her vision. So they would test her vision and it was fine. And she would just lie and say like, I don't see that, or it's blurry. And, uh, they gave her numerous eye procedures and surgeries. It's just...
Em Schulz: Absolutely my worst nightmare.
Christine Schiefer: It's just sick. It really is.
Em Schulz: Nobody, nobody should be touching anyone's eyeballs ever.
Christine Schiefer: Not for no reason and...
Em Schulz: Not for no reason.
Christine Schiefer: Especially a child. And like Dee Dee just insisted she had all these vision issues and, and it was just all bullshit. So in 2011, Dee Dee takes Gypsy... So how old is she in 2011? Like 20?
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah, sure.
Christine Schiefer: So in 2011, Dee Dee takes Gypsy to a, like a sci-fi convention. It's like an anime Comic Con type thing called Vision Con.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And Gypsy loved events like this. Because what you were saying earlier, kind of same idea. She loved being in a place where other people were dressed up and she didn't feel like a freak. She, she could go and wear a dress and a wig. And it wasn't unusual. Like she wasn't sticking out like a sore thumb.
Em Schulz: Well, also and it had nothing to do with her. Like, uh, well, I don't know if she was associating it, associating it with her illnesses or anything, but yeah, she felt like probably she was like everybody else.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. She like, felt like she didn't stick out as much. Like it was, everyone's not like, staring at you. Umm, and so she loved these kind of events, uh, because she didn't look out of place. And while she was at this one in 2011, and keep in mind she's 20 at this point, although she thinks she's what, like 16, 17?
Em Schulz: 17.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. There she meets a man in his 30s when he bumps into her wheelchair and apologizes. And so they, they speak briefly and kind of like touch base with each other and give each other's info, basic info. And then he was able to find her on Facebook because she had a secret Facebook page, which she used while Dee Dee thought she was playing on Barbie websites. And...
Em Schulz: Mm. Was it, did it have a different name or like, was Dee Dee just not...
Christine Schiefer: I think it was Emma Rose was the name.
Em Schulz: Okay. I was gonna say, like Gypsy Blanchard, uh, like your...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Your mom hasn't looked that up to see if you have a page.
Christine Schiefer: No. She definitely had a fake name. It was, umm, she had almost like a secondary life online, which...
Em Schulz: A Finsta back in the day.
Christine Schiefer: A Finsta, basically. Umm, so she had this kind of fake face or the secret Facebook page. And so this guy found it and they started chatting, umm, through Facebook. And the reason she even was able to do this is that a non-profit for children with leukemia had given Gypsy a laptop as a gift.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And so she was able to use this, thank God to like, find an escape and live some sort of fantasy of a normal teenager life on social media.
Em Schulz: I'm, I'm surprised her mom let her even have a laptop.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. It was very much like only for Barbie websites.
Em Schulz: Barbie websites.
Christine Schiefer: But I think at the time, her mom probably didn't even know, like a lot of our parents didn't know, and we didn't know the dangers of the internet.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, you know, you just say you're on Barbie websites. It's like, okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe your mom didn't even know much About Facebook.
Em Schulz: Or like, you could say Club Penguin. No one knew Club Penguin could be...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Salacious. And I'm sure people found a Way to do that. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Right, yeah there's some weird shit happened on there. Umm, and so, you know, she's chatting with this guy on social media secretly in the middle of the night. Umm, and if you ever watch the Joey King version of this, it's so scary when she wakes up in the middle of the night to like open her laptop and like, is so scared her mother's gonna see. It's like, it's like worse than any horror movie 'cause you're just so afraid.
Em Schulz: It's the anxiety of like your mom finding out that you could actually have a personality outside of what she's concocted and... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But then the punishment is surgery, eye surgery.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's not like, oh, now you can't be on Facebook. It's like your eyes are gonna be cut open.
Em Schulz: I'm honestly surprised that the doctors, that she didn't have doctors do surgeries that made her eyesight worse to confirm that she had bad eyesight.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they did. I think they did. I think they actively fucked up her eyes...
Em Schulz: Oh fuck.
Christine Schiefer: Because she kept saying her vision's wrong, her vision's bad. And if they're giving repeated eye surgeries to someone who has good vision...
Em Schulz: Yeah, you're right. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It's just...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's creating a problem that didn't exist, which is so disturbing. Umm, and so she's on Facebook, she's opening up to this "new friend" about her life. Umm, things her mom makes her do. The fact that she could secretly walk, even though her mom made her use a wheelchair. And she kind of built this fantasy idea that this guy was like her knight in shining armor who would rescue her. Umm, even though he was in his mid 30s, and she at least she thought was only 15. So huge red flag. Okay. From this guy. Umm, because he also thinks she's 15, just to be clear.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: That's what she's told him. So.
Em Schulz: Okay. So where... So there are multiple...
Christine Schiefer: This is already bad. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Crimes happening.
Christine Schiefer: She's being victimized by multiple people. Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay. Understood.
Christine Schiefer: And so she finds by chance one day an insurance card, her own insurance card, and she sees her birth year was 1991, and she realizes she's not 15, she's 19. And armed with this knowledge, she tells this man and he's like, hell yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Come to my house. Oh, God. And so he encouraged her to leave Dee Dee and come live with him. And he told her that she's an adult, she can make her own choices, which technically is true. And so while Dee Dee slept, Gypsy stole several thousand dollars in cash as well as pain medication, because after a major surgery, I mean, you can't blame a girl. She had become dependent on these medications that her mother was forcing her to take. So she takes these pain pills, she takes some money, and she leaves. And she leaves a note for her mom revealing that she had found out her real age, she packed her bag with her clothes, which were just princess dresses because she didn't have any normal clothes.
Em Schulz: Ugh. She didn't have anything else. Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: And she hitchhiked... Hitchhiked out of town, wearing a blonde wig. She arrives at this guy's house, and it is of course, nothing like the fantasy she has built up in her mind. He was on parole, and so he could not move her out of state, like he had said he would. Umm, and he lived with a friend, and again, they're in their 30s, and he thought she was 15 at first so this is all very troubling.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Back at home, Dee Dee discovered Gypsy missing, of course, and freaked the fuck out. Then found these messages between Gypsy and this guy on Gypsy's phone. And so she starts calling people who had attended the convention with them, until she pinpointed who this guy was.
Em Schulz: That's amazing that she could even do that. That's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. She was fucking on a, on a war path. Like there was no way of stopping this woman.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: She found out this guy's address, she drives there at 8:00 AM, knocks on the door, tells Gypsy if she comes home, she could see this guy whenever she wanted, but she brings a falsified birth certificate insisting that what Gypsy had seen was wrong. And she actually is 15.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And so she shows this to the guy and he's like, okay, well if she's a minor, then like, of course, take her home. Like he just believes it 'cause why would somebody lie about that?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so he thinks like, oh God, this girl's like 15. Yeah. Take her home.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. And so, and he's on parole, reminder.
Em Schulz: Pfft!
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure that was gonna look really good to his parole officer. Uh, so Gypsy like, felt this weird pull to believe her mom 'cause why not? Like she has had to trust her mom her whole life. She doesn't, her mom is insisting like, this, you're 15, you're not 19. And so she's like, okay. I mean, I guess. And she goes home with her mom 'cause also she's not having the time of her life at this guy's house anyway.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so back at the house, Gypsy was punished. Uh, her mother handcuffed her to the bed for two weeks.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: She tethered Gypsy's body to her own body at night.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: With a dog leash. So that...
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: Anytime Gypsy shifted or moved, her mom would wake up. She slept with a knife on the bedside table as an intimidation tactic.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: She put a cow tongue and some of Gypsy's menstrual blood.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And a photo of the man and Gypsy into a mason jar and displayed it, and said it was a hex so that she, Gypsy-Rose, would never find love and happiness.
Em Schulz: Holy fuck. Oh my God. That last one...
Christine Schiefer: It's...
Em Schulz: Like, it got more and more twisted with every sentence you said.
Christine Schiefer: It's like physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, like every type of abuse.
Em Schulz: Spiritual abuse.
Christine Schiefer: Spiritual abuse. Literally. Yes.
Em Schulz: Weirdest shit abuse. Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And Dee Dee also insisted to Gypsy-Rose, fear mongering, that kissing makes you pregnant. And so Gypsy insisted she, nothing had happened, but Dee Dee forced her to take a pregnancy test. Just humiliating, just horrible.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's just degra-degradation at this point.
Christine Schiefer: It is, it is, uh, yeah. It's like exceeded infantalizing. It's like degrading now. Umm, she began to physically attack Gypsy, too. She often punched her. Umm, she hit her with coat hangers, like the sharp end of coat hang... Just...
Em Schulz: And, and this was new. This was like after she...
Christine Schiefer: This is new.
Em Schulz: After she like... After...
Christine Schiefer: I think it's because she's old enough to fight back now, like old enough to like try and rebel.
Em Schulz: Right. But also, she can also say like, after all I've done for you, you betray me like that...
Christine Schiefer: 100%. That is exactly, exactly it.
Em Schulz: Feels like she lost the trust she had or something.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. She's like my little girl, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And like, you're... Yeah, exactly. Umm, so slowly weeks went by and finally when Gypsy has once again completely submitted to Dee Dee, she's unchained from the bed and allowed small freedoms again, such as bathing herself. Uh, and Gypsy has now determined with utter certainty that there is no escaping this house. Dee Dee would always find her and she would be punished, and it wasn't worth it. And so she just played, played nicely and stayed home. And she, she could have reached out to her father, but she didn't know she could because Dee Dee had told her he was violently abusive and had told her all these stories.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, for example, Dee Dee's told her that he had once picked Gypsy up by the face and neck as an infant and hurled her across the room. And so Gypsy's terrified of this man. Like, she doesn't know that this is all bullshit.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And the dad doesn't know that Dee Dee's making all this up either.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: And he barely knows where they are.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So Gypsy had no idea that after finding out his daughter didn't know her real age, remember that.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On her 18th birthday, he saw a big red flag and he and Kristy started pushing Dee Dee to say like, we wanna see her in person. We wanna talk to her. We wanna, we don't want these...
Em Schulz: I feel like that all that did was set Dee Dee up to make sure that she really made sure they never saw him like...
Christine Schiefer: That they never saw her.
Em Schulz: Really... Yeah. Like really amped up the abuse allegations or something to like scare her away from ever wanting to see her dad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, to say like, you don't wanna be near him.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Look what... Listen to what he's done to you and what he would do to you now if you saw him. Yeah. The fear mongering was very manipulative and Gypsy just believed like this was her life. And so what she would do is she would sometimes sneak on the computer and just do social media, and try to like escape, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And one of the things she did is she made an account on a Christian dating website.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: And I know.
Em Schulz: Christian Mingle. Was it that...
Christine Schiefer: I imagine it was Christian Mingle, it has to be.
Em Schulz: It had to be Christian Mingle, that was taking the entire town by storm back then.
Christine Schiefer: And you know what? I bet watching that commercial with your mom, you feel less like you're rebelling when it's like.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a a godly faithful relationship.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, that can't be so bad. Right, mom? Like, she won't be that upset.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, things didn't quite go that direction, but in any case, she met this guy named Nicholas Godejohn, and once again, she develops this fantasy that Nicholas is her savior. Umm, but in reality, he takes advantage of her vulnerability and her, her like sheltered lack of understanding of the world. Uh, he introduces Gypsy to the BDSM lifestyle, which of course, in, in, in and of itself is not a bad thing. Umm, but she was so inexperienced at life that I don't think she quite...
Em Schulz: Understood.
Christine Schiefer: Understood. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Also, like she was weirdly, I don't know what this means or if there's even any point to this, but it feels like someone who has constantly been degraded their whole life maybe doesn't understand consent the right way for BDSM.
Christine Schiefer: But she's never been a consenting person. That's exactly true.
Em Schulz: Especially when, when thinking kissing gets you pregnant. I don't think she, she doesn't know anything about vanilla sex, let alone like...
Christine Schiefer: Let alone the...
Em Schulz: A a space where like you're, you could be submissive and things were...
Christine Schiefer: Exploring kinks and things like that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Things that she's already had to deal with in a nonsexual way, you know.
Christine Schiefer: And she's gone through hell already. So it's like, what's the, you know, what's big whoop now, it's also part of your sex life, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know what the overlap there is, but there's something there that makes it feel extra off-putting. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I do too, I think so too. Yeah. And like you said, she's never really been consenting at all, like in her own life, in her own home.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so that's, yeah, that's a great point. Can you even understand consent at that point? Umm, and so he introduced Gypsy to this lifestyle. He required her to address him as her master.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And their relationship escalated until Nicholas insisted he could rescue Gypsy if only he was able to murder her mother first.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's the part I should have gone oh my God at, umm, that's very interesting. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, not a red flag at all.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting hot take, I guess from Nicholas. Umm.
Em Schulz: A super let's... A super accelerated, umm, request from someone who even if...
Christine Schiefer: And also like this is...
Em Schulz: Even people I've known for 10 years, if they made that request I'd be like, that's a little too far, uh, minute one into this relationship is kind of crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. A little bit tough. Uh, but I guess she's calling him master, so it's like, well she's submits...
Em Schulz: She could have thought it was a fantasy or something. Like it could have been like, not actually...
Christine Schiefer: I think she kind of did. I mean, again, I'm just saying this kind of out of pocket, but, and she's spoken herself on this topic, but I think there was an element of like, this is a fantasy life. It's a, it's an internet life. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But couldn't be real. It couldn't... Could not be real, no.
Christine Schiefer: And we could all understand that, like, growing up with the internet and like trying to figure out what's real, what's not real, and having some harsh realities thrown our way, you know? Uh, and so either way, she was like, sure, okay. And she encouraged him. And she, she genuinely at this point also think about how desperate she was just to get out of this fucking house. And she has already tried to escape and she's now getting chained to the bed. I mean, this is an abuser. If this, if this were like a partner, you wouldn't think twice about like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Attacking in the middle of the night to get out of there. You know what I mean? And of course, it's just so much more twisted 'cause it's a parent.
Em Schulz: Or e... Or even, I mean, 'cause maybe it was also, maybe they connected in a way where like maybe she didn't understand what consent was, or if this was real, or if this was just the internet talk. But like, she also probably also fantasized about hurting her mom or doing whatever it took to escape. Like, even if it wasn't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Her mom had been hurting her since she was three months old, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I...
Christine Schiefer: Actively.
Em Schulz: I could see like her not totally hating the idea of like, even if this is play pretend, like just an, an outlet of a creative outlet of like...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: What life would be like if I got away from her. And...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: So I, it's odd, but also given the circumstances, I don't think it's like totally unreasonable. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, she's in, she's in her 20s. She's like 23 at this point, and she she can't picture a life...
Em Schulz: If someone's doing this to you for two decades.
Christine Schiefer: She can't picture a life outside of this at all without her mom being out of the picture.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, okay. So she's encouraging of this. And like you said, it could be real, it could be just like a fantasy thing on the internet. But either way, she encourages this behavior, she plays into it. And on June 9th, 2015, Nicholas traveled to Missouri, waited outside the Blanchard house for Gypsy's sign that Dee Dee was asleep. Then Gypsy hid in the bathroom while Nicholas stabbed her mother to death. And afterward, according to Gypsy, Nicholas remarked that he was going to sexually violate Dee Dee's remains. And according to Gypsy, uh, she allowed him to rape her instead to protect her mother's body, her mother's remains.
Em Schulz: Wow. That part gets overlooked pretty often, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Is that not so dark?
Em Schulz: Wow. I don't even know where to begin with that.
Christine Schiefer: I will say like there's, uh because they were, I think they were, they were tried, you know, separately, and they've gone their separate ways. So Nicholas later insisted he never raped or co-coerced Gypsy. And this was all consexual... Consensual sex in her house after he killed Dee Dee. But, you know.
Em Schulz: Given her like mental state and like her, like unawareness of anything sexual, like, I, I don't, she was not capable of consent, I don't think.
Christine Schiefer: I would argue the same.
Em Schulz: Okay. Also, I, umm, and also, even if she was saying do it to me instead, I mean, how many times has there been a sexual assault where someone was saying, do it to me instead? And like, still not wanting it, you know, like...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Umm, and they knew what sex was to even be able to say that. So like, there's, I think...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, wow.
Christine Schiefer: And to jump from thinking kissing is going to get you pregnant to...
Em Schulz: To that.
Christine Schiefer: Having sex, violent sex next to your murdered mother's body. Like, you can't tell me that that was just a happy consensual thing. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: I mean that's a... No, that's a, that's a trauma that she was not prepared for.
Christine Schiefer: There's no, umm, I can't, I can't wrap my head around that one.
Em Schulz: I, I mean, even if she thought she was consenting to you...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Even if she thought she was consenting to, you can kiss me, 'cause she thought that's what sex was...
Christine Schiefer: Good point.
Em Schulz: Then like, then imagine finding out as more things happen, I mean, then all of a sudden, it actually truly is a full, full assault.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because you didn't even, you never saw that coming.
Christine Schiefer: I think, umm, it was all becoming very real all at once. And, uh, you know...
Em Schulz: She had to just be in shock. I can't even...
Christine Schiefer: He claimed she was consenting... She claims she wasn't, which I, let's be real, who do we believe, you know, in this situation?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, even if she said like, yeah, sure, let's do that. Like you said, that does not necessarily imply full consent. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so, anyway, the pair then fled together to Big Bend, Wisconsin. And after several days passed, Gypsy started getting worried because nobody had found out about her mother's death.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And as a result, she decided to make a Facebook post to try and get somebody's attention.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Like, it was like going to like a digital scene of the crime.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Going back to the scene of the crime, you're a hundred percent right. I didn't... Hadn't even even thought of it that way.
Em Schulz: Because like she was, she was so paranoid that she hadn't been busted, that she had to set herself up to get busted.
Christine Schiefer: No, she was, no, she was, she was upset that her mother's body hadn't been found and it was just laying...
Em Schulz: Oh, I see.
Christine Schiefer: In the, in the house.
Em Schulz: She was starting to feel guilty that like no one had discovered her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. Got it.
Christine Schiefer: And so she tried to, to post on Facebook on her mom's Facebook page to try and, or no, actually she and Dee Dee shared a Facebook page. It was called, like, Dee Gyp... That page still existed during episode 15. I remember 'cause I went and found the posts. Which was...
Em Schulz: Wow. Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: So disturbing. Because you can even see, and I'm so mad, I'm like, I bet you I didn't screenshot that. And I'm like, so mad it passed me. Because it's like, no way that still exists.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: And secondly like, how dumb. Maybe it is in my screenshots, I'll go back and look. But either way, it was very alarming to see the post. But then also all the neighbors and friends saying, Dee Dee, what is this? This isn't funny. Like, you shouldn't say stuff like that.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Or like, oh, uh, did you get hacked? And, you know, just concerned friends and neighbors being like, what is this about? Or is this like a movie reference? Umm, they had no idea, you know, what was really going on, obviously. So what happened is she decided to make this Facebook post, but Nicholas decided he got to choose what it said. So the post said, June 14th, by the way, this is five days after the murder. She wrote, "That bitch is dead," on Dee Dee's Facebook wall. Friend... Friends and family start calling Dee Dee. And they're like, shit, this is weird. Umm, and they can't get ahold of her. So they alert police. And there was another post that was even more upsetting. Just not even gonna go there right now. Umm, but you can easily Google it. Friends and family couldn't get in contact with Dee Dee, so they alerted the police. And that is how they found, uh, the body of Dee Dee. And the way I presented it in episode 15 was like, this murder, this, a little bit of setup, then this murder scene with the Facebook posts, and the way it was just so alarming without any context. It's just like, I don't think I'll ever get you that good again, to be honest.
Em Schulz: Aw, shucks.
Christine Schiefer: No, shucks.
Em Schulz: Also, I wonder, honestly, like if five days had passed, I'm sure part of it was like wondering if anyone had found her mom. And like, I'm sure, like it's, you know, I... Relationships with our own parents, despite a, a entire story like this are, are convoluted and complex.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But like, I can't imagine after going through something like that, one, having so much trauma and like your mom not actually being there to take care of you for the first time ever.
Christine Schiefer: Great. For the first time.
Em Schulz: And so being scared to be alone, having this, not even knowing how to have your own personhood, because you've never had a moment to have an identity. So that's scary on its own, having the guilt of what's just happened, the shock of everything that just happened to you and your body because.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I mean, I, I can't imagine having all that. Like, probably...
Christine Schiefer: You're suddenly sexually active.
Em Schulz: And honestly, like for the last five days, he's probably been continually assaulting you. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, if you have to call him master and you're scared to even go outside, yeah. It's not a good look.
Em Schulz: I, I imagine that she probably, that Facebook post was also a bit of a cry for help of like, someone discover her. So that way, like even if I got busted, I'm away from this guy...
Christine Schiefer: Do you remember? Do you know, do you remember that she was living in his family's house?
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: They were like in his family home during this. And his parents are just downstairs. Like, this is normal.
Em Schulz: That's so odd.
Christine Schiefer: It's so odd.
Em Schulz: For them to be like, what'd you do today? It's like, nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Posted on Facebook. Hee hee.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, ugh. It's just all so jarring. Umm, but so the, the police see this Facebook post, and you're right, it might be a cry for help because they immediately link it to the IP address of the Godejohn family. And they go up there, they arrest Nicholas and Gypsy. And Gypsy still thinks that she's 19. And the police tell her you're actually 23. Like, she doesn't even know how old she is still.
Em Schulz: Amazing. Truly amazing.
Christine Schiefer: Unbelievable. And so when people saw Gypsy walking in the news, like people who knew her, they were horrified because they're realizing like, oh my God, we've been like coddling this child for so long. And meanwhile, her mother was just abusing her, bamboozling all of us.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Conning everybody, harming her child. It's just, people were horrified. People were really, really horrified. I will say though, when Rod, her dad saw her, he was elated because he... His first thought was, oh my God.
Em Schulz: Something happened to her.
Christine Schiefer: She can walk.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She can walk. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He was like, oh my God, she can fucking walk. And then it took him a little bit to come around to, wait a minute. No, this is so dark. She could walk the whole time.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It just was like, for a moment he was like, oh my God, she's been healed. You know? And then he's like, wait a minute. All of this was fake? And then it's just this dark. Like [2:23:25.1] ____.
Em Schulz: Yeah. How quickly did it, did it get found out that she was actually fine the entire time and her...
Christine Schiefer: It was pretty quick.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I think it was the walking on the news was like shocking. And then like very quickly, it unraveled and Gypsy's abuse story came to light. Immediately her family stood with her. Umm, her stepmom, Kris said there was probably never a time in Gypsy's entire life that she wasn't under lock and key. But of course, many people were criticizing Gypsy and horrified and saying things like, why didn't you stand up for yourself? Or just leave? Which like, fuck off.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but then, you know, to their point, murder's probably not the best option, but what is the best option? I don't know. You know, umm, so Gypsy's defenders argued that leaving would be nearly impossible. Umm, she had no legal documentation proving her age or identity. So if her mother found her, she could just tell police or tell whoever, oh, this is just a child, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, and then be punished. And even if she did prove she was an adult, Dee Dee had spent over two decades convincing everyone that she had an intellectual disability. So even if she was technically old enough, her mom could say, she's not capable of caring for herself. She needs me to take care of her. And, uh, people kind of link this to the Britney Spears case sometimes, umm, like the way that a family can take legal control over your life and, and claim you're unfit to care for yourself. And it almost like creates a self-fulfilling prophecy, like you said earlier.
Em Schulz: Yup.
Christine Schiefer: Dee Dee was so manipulative that dozens of medical professionals had done completely unnecessary and harmful surgeries on Gypsy for 20 years. And a close family friend who had bonded with Dee Dee after learning about Gypsy's cancer history because her own sister had leukemia, by the way, what a fucking punch in the gut to realize they were just faking it.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, said she and everyone else truly believed that Gypsy had the intellectual capacity of a very young child, and they like treated her as such. And they just...
Em Schulz: But also, if you're being only spoken to by one person who infantilizes you, if you're only like learning what she wants you to learn, it's probably really easy to make sure somebody doesn't...
Christine Schiefer: You're gonna come off that way. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Grow up. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And if you're wearing princess dresses and like playing with Barbies, yeah. I mean, I can see why that would be an easy story to believe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I, it's also amazing how many doctors were willing to perform things without any documentation or, or going against their own evidence. And...
Christine Schiefer: Well, one thing that I think happens in these cases is that like, one doctor will be like, okay, yeah. And diagnose it. And so suddenly it's in your official medical record.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: That you have leukemia and it's like, well, it's in the paperwork. Who's gonna challenge that?
Em Schulz: I wonder if there was ever a case or if there was ever like, like a class added to medical school after Gypsy-Rose about like how to fucking double check things before you put things in official files, like...
Christine Schiefer: And I think that's, I mean, that must be a fine line to walk as a medical professional as well...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Of like challenging some sick child. You know, it, like, I imagine that alone is like a huge hill to have to walk up if you're gonna try and prove someone's not sick.
Em Schulz: To be like ultra skeptic. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And like, I, I don't know, I don't know.
Em Schulz: There's gotta be some sort of, if anyone is listening who's like been to medical school or enough to know, like what they teach you about Munchausen by proxy, I would love to know like what the protocol for that is now at least.
Christine Schiefer: And I think it, it's considered such a rare disorder, but it's not quite as rare as far as I heard on that one podcast episode. Like, statistically, it's not as rare as people think it is. Umm, and there's, there's shades of it, right? There's a spectrum of just exaggerating your child's, uh, symptoms. And then there's of course, like making your child ill, which is the severe side of it, which obviously goes hand in hand with this case.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but yeah, she said, uh, that this friend who, who said she had befriended Gypsy-Rose and really truly believed that she had this intellectual disability, she claimed that in an interview she admitted that if Gypsy had pulled her aside and said, and asked for help, she does not know if she would've believed her.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like she might have gone and told her mom, like that's how much she was convinced that this was a real deal story.
Em Schulz: Dang.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, which is a horrifying, she was like, it was just a heartbreaking realization to realize like, even if she came to me and confided in me, I might not have believed her. Which is must be, which is very like brave to admit, I guess, you know? 'cause I think a lot of us think we would be different, but maybe not.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, the last time Gypsy left, she of course, ended up handcuffed to a bed for two weeks, and she said she was so terrified of her mother that she never sought help, because she knew she'd be punished. Umm, and all she had known was just this absolute control and no escape. And ultimately Nicholas Godejohn who was tried separately, was convicted of first degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Gypsy, meanwhile, was convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 10 years in prison with the possibility of early release.
Christine Schiefer: And in prison, Gypsy said she felt free for the first time in her life, which is just such a twisted thought. Umm, and I, I mentioned this in episode 15 too, but she apparently gained weight in prison. She's like one of the only people that gained weight in prison...
Em Schulz: For sure.
Christine Schiefer: Because the food, she was so excited to be eating food rather than all the people who were disgusted by cafeteria food. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so, you know, she said one of her happiest memories is the first day she arrived at prison, went to sit outside at a picnic table, and realized she could just talk openly with people and make friendships.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It was just that jarring of a change that it was one of the best days of her life. Umm, and so she did have a substance use disorder for a while after all the surgeries and all the medications she had been on. Umm, and she was able to access drugs in prison. She even lied to her stepmom, umm, asking for 50 bucks to pay back a woman she owed for drugs. But she was just so disillusioned by her mother's like manipulation that she wanted to break the cycle. And she actually called her stepmom and admitted that she lied for the $50 and said she had a substance use disorder.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Like, she just wanted to be so upfront. And her mom was like...
Em Schulz: That's pretty big.
Christine Schiefer: I, it's huge. I think, I totally agree.
Em Schulz: 'Cause she could have just turned into her mom immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or just like, let her mom kind of rule her life in that way. Like, that you, you're still sick and this is just your life forever. But she said she, she wanted to fight that. And so she was able to recover and she maintained sobriety in prison, which like, God, that's amazing.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, she also received an education in prison. She had not been schooled this entire time and rapidly gained weight. Uh, she did...
Em Schulz: Prison almost had to be like, really exciting to like...
Christine Schiefer: Like recess or something, you know, it's like you're suddenly free.
Em Schulz: You just get to learn and you get to talk to people and you get to walk, and you get to...
Christine Schiefer: You get to like, walk and learn your own... Choose...
Em Schulz: Eat food.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Not be force fed and ooh. Umm, you know, she, she had obviously deep trauma that not everyone knew what to do with. Umm, she didn't have teeth, and so her dentures were ill fitting, didn't fit her anymore. So she wasn't able, there was definitely things she faced in prison. Umm, but on December 28th of 2023, Gypsy was released early after serving eight years of her 10-year sentence. And of course, tens of thousands of people now on TikTok instead of Facebook, umm, like anxiously awaited her return to the real world. Umm, and she made social media accounts and she wanted to share her life and talk about her life after prison. Umm, and apparently, you know that movie Joey, with Joey King that I was mentioning, which is called The Act.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I remember watching it like in total bewilderment and just shock back in the day, even though I'd already covered the story, it was just so alarming. Umm, but apparently she never gave the producers permission to tell her story.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And never received compensation, which I did not realize at the time.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And is very icky. And not cool.
Em Schulz: Oh yuck.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah. Very bad. And, you know, of course people were like celebrating her as an abuse survivor, but then like, when she wasn't a perfect victim, umm, people started turning on her and saying, like, your attitude, your upbeat attitude is disturbing. Like, you should take more accountability. You know, you didn't do this right. You didn't say that right. And Gypsy says she does regret her mother's death every single day, umm, and thinks murder is never the answer or an acceptable choice. She said if she could redo her life, she's not sure whether she would all go all the way back to childhood and ask family for help, or if she would report Nicholas to the police or what she would do. But she said either way, she would undo her mother's death because she regrets it every single day.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so today Gypsy's married, she's expecting her first child with her husband. Umm, she's sharing her life in a new series, Gypsy-Rose: Life After Lock Up, which, uh, I have not seen, but I know got some attention when that started umm.
Em Schulz: Is the person she's engaged to, the person that she like liked at some point over the computer?
Christine Schiefer: That old man?
Em Schulz: I feel like, I feel like it was someone from her past that she's now married to.
Christine Schiefer: I thought so too, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't know how, I don't know how, but I feel like it was like a friend she met online or something, or a friend she met at a convention.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I don't know. I know she was married to the first guy and then that got a lot of attention on TikTok. And then they broke up.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm they broke up.
Em Schulz: But I think they broke up because she had feelings for someone from her past.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: We'll find out in Love After Lock Up.
Christine Schiefer: Love After Lock Up. Check it out. I'm hoping she's at least compensated for that one a little bit. Oh, okay. Her old flame, ex-fiance, Ken Urker, I don't know who that is.
Em Schulz: Okay. Great. We'll find out in Love After Lock Up.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but in any case, we'll find out, uh, blah, blah, blah. So she has some mixed feelings, understandably, about all the medical professionals who failed her and all the traumatic medical procedures with no medical evidence that were unnecessary. And of course, several doctors insist, you know, they tried to intervene and they tried to talk to her alone. But, you know, she was, I guess brainwashed by her own mother. But then Gypsy asked her interviewers to consider whether she is lying about never being offered help or if the doctors are lying to save face after operating on a child without cause, and I was like...
Em Schulz: Fucking...
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Good point.
Christine Schiefer: Can't argue with that one. Uh, and there's such a long history, this is disturbing. There's such a long history of surgeries that Gypsy didn't know about all of them until she watched interviews with doctors who performed surgeries on her that she didn't even remember having.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I imagine it's all just a big medical blur.
Christine Schiefer: A blur and like just a trauma blur. And so anyway.
Em Schulz: Also I can't, I can't even, sorry. I can't even imagine the trauma of like, if you actually have an illness now, like the way you psych yourself out, like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, you're right.
Em Schulz: Going to a...
Christine Schiefer: Or like, if you have to take, you're prescribed a medication, like...
Em Schulz: Or she's like been going to a doc, she's pregnant, imagine going to a hospital to like have to give birth.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: I wonder if she's just like doing a full blown home birth. She's like, fuck that. Like, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I wouldn't blame her. I mean...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. I'd tell her don't do it, but, you know, that's me 'cause I'm a big scaredy cat. Uh, okay. So Gypsy has, you know, a lot of friends and a big support system. She always was like this very upbeat character so I think it wasn't hard for her to kind of get back into society in that way. Umm, and she started advocating for herself, which is awesome. She did accuse her grandfather of raping her when she was nine years old.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But her Uncle claims that this story is one Dee Dee taught her over the years to, to tell to other people as like a, you know, so it's, it's, it's just so fucked up that even the stories about sexual assault are all twisted and we don't even know what's true. Umm, it, anyway, despite all this, everything she's had to face and process, Gypsy is very excited about her future. And upon her release, she said it's nice to be home. I'm back home in Louisiana enjoying a beautiful day outside, and I've got a lot of great things happening really soon. So.
Em Schulz: Good. Great.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. What a story. Sorry, that was so long. Dear Lord.
Em Schulz: That was a great story though.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you, Em. Thank you, Saoirse.
Em Schulz: I hadn't heard it in like 385 episodes or something.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. It's back.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay. Well, I'm sorry if I, sorry to the people who like short episodes, but you're welcome, to the people who like long episodes. We really tackled it all today.
Christine Schiefer: And we're supposed to record a listener episode, ha ha ha, after this.
Em Schulz: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Umm, okay, well, since we have to go do a listeners episode, I guess we just end quickly on this one, but...
Christine Schiefer: Let's do it. But come join us on Patreon if you want. Umm, we're at patreon.com/atwwdpodcast, and we do a little after hours, yappy hour where we continue talking. Can you believe it? Uh, about different topics depending on our mood and feeling of the day.
Em Schulz: Yay. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
