[intro music]
Em: Christine, my... My friend. My enemy, my lover.
Christine: Oh.
Em: Oh, hmm.
Christine: Mine rhymed.
Em: What did you say? I didn't even hear you.
Christine: Yeah. What else is new?
Em: What did you say?
Christine: My queen.
Em: Oh, well, yes, of course. My liege. Yes, obviously. Yes. Uh, how do you do?
Christine: Well...
Em: Okay. Well, yeah. Okay. Well, nevermind. Okay. I don't really know.
[laughter]
Em: It's fine.
Christine: Uh, how do you do, how do you do partner?
Em: You know? Uh... Hmm. Same thing. It's, it's, it's, it's crunch time over here with this tour. And we are... We are really, I think you said it best the other day that you and I are really tag teaming shifts because I've been up in...
Christine: Yes.
Em: I got this like, creepy little fucking hair. Umm, I... We're tag teaming shifts because I'm waking up when you're going to bed and back... And I mean, we're... It's getting done as predicted, it always gets done. But, umm, we are in our slap happy era. I think.
Christine: It's a... Outrageous, I... I started on... In one of...
Em: Outrageous.
Christine: Of what Em will probably has estimated will be about 15 pages of like, things for me to edit. And I am starting... I started on page one yesterday. I am on page one today.
[laughter]
Christine: And...
Em: It's okay. It's okay.
Christine: I got so invested in this one clip that I've... I mean, I've added music, I've added angles.
Em: That's exactly what I want.
Christine: I've lost my damn mind and I have not gotten anywhere productive. I've literally not left page one.
Em: No. No. No. That's okay. I... Uh, look, that's exactly where we were this time, last time. And the, the dream is that you just get unhinged. I will handle the logistics once I'm done with my part. I help you with your part. And my... Here's the thing. This is what I imagine in, in a healthy marriage, by the way. Umm, just to audition once more for you to finally fall in love with me...
Christine: Your queen is listening.
Em: As predicted by a Reddit.
Christine: Your liege is listening.
Em: My dream is to just do everything in the background for you to be your silliest. That's the dream. So...
Christine: Oh, that's my dream.
[laughter]
Em: So be as silly as you want on page one. I'll handle the rest when I... When I can get to it, so.
Christine: Oh, okay. Well, I'm liking the sound of that and, umm, because it's, you know, already 2:00 PM [laughter], 1:00 in Rome, [laughter] I'm gonna open this alcoholic beverage. It's a, uh...
Em: As you should.
Christine: It's a hard iced tea. We got the caffeine. Oh, and I have my iced coffee here too. Umm, got an iced coffee, got a hard iced tea. I just need to keep myself awake for the next 16 days, [laughter] umm, and we'll be fine. Everything will be great.
Em: Umm, excellent. Well, hey, all right. I just chugged a Xanax, so we're on the same page.
Christine: Oh yum.
Em: Umm, I forgot how gross they taste, but I'm about to get really re-familiar with, uh... Re-familiarized I suppose.
Christine: You're supposed to taste it. Really. I think.
Em: When you... When it goes down the hatch, it kind of... There's a linger.
Christine: I... I see, you know, what's the worst tasting? Zoloft.
Em: Mm-hmm. Really?
Christine: If you cut them off, horrid.
Em: Yeah. I've had to, umm, raw dog a Xanax a couple times just 'cause I didn't have water near me. Oh my God. And you have to just chew it. Oh my God.
Christine: Don't chew it. You are not supposed to do that, my friend. No, no.
Em: Not supposed to, but I have, umm...
Christine: That's not how that works. Nope. You use your spit.
Em: It actually... It actually worked very well. Umm... [laughter] But, uh...
Christine: Okay. Let's... Uh, let's, uh, table that conversation for another day.
Em: But also...
Christine: Hey folks. Do not chew your Xanax please. Ever. Please. Thank you.
Em: It was, uh, there have been... There have been I think one or two times where it was necessary. I was about to go on stage and I was like, I... What's... I forgot to take it.
Christine: That's what spit is for.
Em: I know. But then I feel lodged and I do the... Thing, you know?
Christine: Right. And chewing it makes it so much... Feels so much better. I'm sure.
Em: At least I... At least I don't feel it in the throat. I just... Yeah. No matter what. It's a bad experience. But today I had some water. Yay. Umm, and other than that, I've got nothing going on. There's really not much else in my system. Umm, I had a piece of cheese, so I guess there's cheese and xanaxes in my system. That's a pretty great combo.
Christine: What are you, me? Like since when do you even eat cheese? I feel like you sound like me right now.
Em: The Babybels. We just have them in the fridge.
Christine: I didn't know... I know... I didn't know you liked them. I've been thinking about it ever since I saw you eating one the other day and I was like, I didn't know Em liked Babybels, that's such a delightful new fact.
Em: Well, I like mozzarella. That's like the... And they just have mozzarella ones, so.
Christine: Oh, so you don't like the Gouda ones?
Em: No.
Christine: Those are the main ones.
Em: Well, that's great. I know. I... I am a loyalist to mozzarella. I know that makes me like the most bland person on earth, but I... I stand by her. So...
Christine: I'm not gonna lie. Umm, Babybels are not known to be very exotic or fanciful. [laughter] So I think you're okay. Umm.
Em: To me it's like... It's like a, a like a French cheese. It's like a... [laughter] It's the fanciest I'll get. So other than string cheese, which is just Babybel, but long, you know.
Christine: I see. Umm, yeah. I do have to break it to you though. The ones you're eating are not the mozzarella ones 'cause it was red. Right? Those are the... Those are the... Those...
Em: That one was a scrap from Allison's.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: The other day.
Christine: I don't believe you because I think you like the Gouda ones, which means I can start serving you Gouda. This is my new plan.
Em: I... That's a great theory. I really... I... I really don't like the, the Gouda ones. This is... This is still the wrapper from last... The last one that Allison left. And yeah, that's... I really... I really don't like the Gouda ones. Umm...
Christine: Mmh. Mmh.
Em: But you can, umm... Lemme do a little taste test in the future if you'd like to prove it. That's, that's fine by me.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Umm, anyway.
Christine: Hey Jan, we're gonna do a taste... A Babybel taste test.
Em: If we ever did a video where I ate all... Any cheese except mozzarella, it would really actually be such a gross experience for me. But everyone else might have fun, so that's fine.
Christine: No, 'cause I watched you eat a block of cheese one time and it was really unpleasant.
Em: It was mozzarella [laughter] I'm telling you. I really... I'm such a sucker for that. I don't know what it is that... She really gets me going. Umm, what's your favorite cheese?
Christine: Oh. I love a Camembert.
Em: Oh, that's supposed... That's... I didn't see that coming. Okay, great. Good for you. [laughter] Umm, okay. Well now we know our two favorite cheeses. Yay. How do we, uh, feel about not our... Our current state... Our... Our current mental load? How do you feel about, umm, let's see, oh, ghost in your house. Any update from last week?
Christine: You know, there is, but the more I think about it, I worry. It's just a, a side effect of my lunacy.
Em: Mmh. I love that.
Christine: Umm but I did see... I did see something this time, which never happens. Well, not never. It usually happens up here. Remember when I'm sitting and I see somebody and I always think the cat or a person walks into the bathroom and then I'm like, there's nobody. I always check and there's nobody there.
Em: Mmh.
Christine: Umm, so I've seen that. But the other day my dad came over and I was sitting across from him and he was, I don't know, droning on and on about his last will and testament or something. And I was sitting there staring at him and I glance up in the mirror above his head and there's something just like going up the stairs.
Em: See ya.
Christine: It was like a... I don't even know how to describe it 'cause it was so fast. And then I kind of like, of course my dad is still going on and on about this fucking will. [laughter] And I'm like, boring. And I look above his head again. And I'm like trying to shift around like, did I... Did something like reflect. 'Cause I sit... I sit there all the time, so I'm like, that's weird. I don't usually notice stuff going up that direction.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Moving all around trying to see what... If something reflected. No, it was just a weird, like, it wasn't even an orbit. It was like pink.
Em: Pink?
Christine: Yeah. And it was like a... It almost looked like two legs.
Em: Oh.
Christine: It was very... It was very strange. It was like very distinct. And that's why I know I wasn't just kind of like imagining it. It was like, I definitely saw it, but it, it, it was very distinct and it just kind of went up the stairs and vanished. And I was like, oh no.
Em: Was like the Pink Panther theme song playing or, uh.
Christine: Actually, yeah, because that is on Leona's playlist. I'm not even kidding you [laughter] I play that at least three times a week. So maybe I have summoned him. That's actually probably the best theory yet.
Em: That's... I think we're gonna have to at least lie to ourselves when we go to bed. You know? It's a great song.
[vocalization]
Em: Cool. Beautiful.
[vocalization]
Em: You know what, two theme songs should have a baby? Pink Panther and Sex in the City.
Christine: I never watched that show.
Em: But you... Have you heard the theme song?
Christine: Probably, but I don't know. Oh.
Em: Oh, it's the Pink Panther basically. Umm... [laughter]
Christine: Okay.
Em: They're both like '90s New York City Jazz sounding.
Christine: Like synth pop.
Em: It's very, uh, I think they would... They would pair well together.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Umm, babababababa that's... Uh, I'm... Apologies for your Pink Ghost. Uh, you know, but also I'm so glad that finally there isn't a, a lady in white. It's a panther in pink.
Christine: It's just two legs, two pink legs. Yeah.
Em: Just two pink gams. Umm, I... Actually you really freaked me out with your little ghost story last time. And now I like keep getting paranoid that something might've followed me home, which so far I haven't sensed anything. Umm, also ever since the day we moved in, nothing from the troll hole or our investigation, so... Has set foot in this house because I just put it all on a storage unit. Umm, and so nothing that's even attached to our ghost stuff has had a chance to come here. And I... I'm very aware that the day I bring something like a suitcase from tour here, if I sense anything in the house, all of a sudden I'll know exactly where it came from.
Christine: Yeah. It's like a... You... You're doing the scientific method, like we talked about last time. You just... You just put... Bring the suitcase in with your hypothesis.
Em: I was thinking more like whole 30 where it's like you just bring one thing in at a time.
Christine: Right.
Em: You know? You bring...
Christine: Oh, like an elimination diet. Right? Yeah.
Em: Uh-huh.
Christine: Sure.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Umm...
Em: Yeah. So, we'll... We'll see exactly what item is haunted of ours eventually when they all end up here.
Christine: I mean. I could probably tell you that most of them I would... I would guess, but.
Em: Well, the storage unit is probably fucking crazy with ghosts these days.
Christine: Well, yeah. I'm waiting for the day. I wake up to a news article that it's like, you know, burned into the ground and Robert the doll is in there. You know, I mean, Jesus.
Em: He is. So...
Christine: And we're all screwed.
Em: Uh, well anyway, uh, until then I've got, uh, a spooky story for you, Christine, and hopefully it takes away some of your anxieties and you can just... You can melt away, melt right into the seat, uh, into relaxation, uh, while I tell you, uh, a local legend.
Em: Oh, fantastic. Cheers.
Em: Cheers. Umm, let me... Here's, actually, here's pretty perfect. Let me cheers you with my Xanax bottle. [laughter] Uh, just making sure I didn't give my any personal information away. Nope. Great. Okay. This is the story of the Tomb of Colonel Jonathan Buck. Mwahahaha.
[vocalization]
Em: Actually, love that.
Christine: Well, now you're making me realize that, that, goes with everything.
Em: It really does.
Christine: Actually. Can I go back and start editing our footage again? 'Cause I feel like I should add that into the footage somewhere. [laughter]
Em: Just like tie that into pony somehow.
Christine: Now that's in my head I can't stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll just like somehow make a remix. I don't know.
Em: Uh, I love it. Great. It totally... 'Cause it does, it sounds sneaky, but it sounds silly, but it sounds threatening.
Christine: And it's like familiar, you know?
Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Mm-hmm. It's soothing. Yet adventurous. How is that possible?
Christine: Wow. That's just like me.
Em: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, one or the other. Never the same. Never at the same time. I don't think. [laughter] Umm, here is the Tomb of Colonel Buck. So fun fact, the tomb that this cemetery... Nope. The cemetery that this tomb sits in is next to the town's only traffic light. Fun fact.
Christine: Oh, delightful. [laughter],
Em: Which in 2024, hard to come by. Didn't know that. Umm, this is in Bucksport, Maine. And, uh, Colonel Buck, the guy who is under the tomb, he founded Bucksport, Maine. His name's Colonel Buck, buck... Bucksport. He founded, uh, the town after living, being born and raised in Massachusetts his whole life. He was born in 1719 and he died in 1798. And his death year 1798. Hmm. 1790s. Let's just say that. Actually, I'm realizing that there's a few different years that were put there, but his death year is kind of important later. So 1790s, he dies. He lived in Massachusetts his whole life. He gets married, he has nine kids, yowza. Umm, six survive. And eventually he gets super frustrated with the local politics of Massachusetts and his little town. And he decides, I don't know why this is like his way to, umm... I'm sure there's some sort of context here, but he decides to handle it by opening up his own ship business, shipping ship business.
Christine: Yeah. That's what I plan to do in November, depending on where can swing. Yeah. That's like my usual backup plan. I'm just gonna start building a ship, uh, ship. Yeah.
Em: It does sound like a... Like a 3:00 AM project to escape from reality, so.
Christine: Oh, sure does. Sure, sure. Sounds like a fixation that, uh, I could get behind. Yeah.
Em: He's like, these politics, they drive me mad. We have to build a boat. It's like, okay, Noah. Like...
Christine: Get me a plank.
Em: Yeah, I know. So he... He tries to have this business. LOL, he gets denied very quickly by the town. They're like, no. I don't totally know why, but something about permits. So he's like, you know what, fuck you Massachusetts. I'm outta here. And he heads to Maine.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Umm, which I feel like if you're that mad at Massachusetts, so you could probably move a little further. But I guess Maine is good enough. Umm, and he and a team begin surveying new land. I like how he's starting from the fucking ground up. He's like, you really did me so dirty, not letting me have my shipping business. I have to just start a whole new fucking town. And then we'll see how people feel about my ships. I mean.
Christine: I mean. Wow. Yeah. He could just like fucking walk next door and be like, anyway, this is named after me now. [laughter] It's like, how, why?
Em: Right. So he starts surveying land in Maine. Umm, and there's a part that he, I guess finds lovely enough, probably quiet enough from people... No judgers there at the moment. And he moves his family there. He builds the very first general store. So I guess the fucking ship thing is out now.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Build... He builds the first general store. He builds the first sawmill. He builds the first gristmills. I don't even know what grist is. And then I guess as an homage to his former, not so much shipping business, he does actually build the town's first boat. I guess you can build the town's first anything when you're the only person there. So...
Christine: Well. I... I think... I think the reason, umm, that, that probably he waited is 'cause he had to make a sawmill first.
[laughter]
Em: He...
Christine: I'm not joking, I'm serious.
Em: He had to build the general store so he could go get hardware supplies for his boat. Yes. I... Totally.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Em: Umm, I do know he was relatively near the river, and so maybe that's why he decided he needed a boat in case he needed like, to fast escape again when his own town betrayed him. I don't totally know. But, uh, fun fact, the site of that first sawmill is now its own landmark in Bucksport within walking distance of the property I'm talking about today, the Cemetery. [laughter] I... So like it really... He did everything within walking distance. He probably...
Christine: Oh, I love that.
Em: He probably stood in a field and did a 360 spin and went, "All of this, I guess is mine."
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And this is as far as I'm willing to walk anyway.
Christine: Yeah. And I don't wanna walk any further, so don't make me.
Em: Yeah. [laughter] So he founds this land. He officially names the town, uh, bucks. Bucktown, Buxton. I, I'm not gonna know, but it's spelled as if it's Bucks Town. So Bucks Town. Umm, it's originally named Bucktown Plantation. Yikes. Umm, but that's because when they were serving the land, they ended up, I guess divvying it up into six different plots that they called Plantation. So he moved on to Plantation number one and he named it Bucktown Plantation. I assume the other ones next to that are named after the other five surveyors.
Christine: Understood.
Em: Who probably all claimed a chunk. Umm, a few years later he ends up fighting in the Revolutionary War. He comes out as a war hero. Uh, there's, I... There was actually a part that... Something where during the Revolutionary War, Bucktown Plantation actually gets totally destroyed. And despite his severe gout ends up walking 200 miles to his kids' house, uh, to escape whatever part of, you know, the war. He... He was in.
Christine: Oh my God, he loves to walk this guy. Huh.
Em: You know, it sounds like he hated walking at first 'cause he was like, everything's gonna be walking distance. But now I'm wondering is 200 miles walking distance?
Christine: I mean, it is for him.
Em: Apparently. So.
Christine: He's cursed to walk.
Em: With gout. With gout.
Christine: Yeah. Yikes. Ow.
Em: I don't even have gout and I don't wanna walk a mile. 200? Fuck that.
Christine: No, no. No.
Em: So he's a war hero. And in honor of him, when the area slowly is able to rebuild, they rename... They rename it from Bucktown Plantation to just Bucktown. Umm, they're like, I, they just decide to shorten it. When he dies in the 1790s, he is buried at his family's little cemetery that they got going on. And it has like a basic stone grave combo. There's... There's nothing really spectacular about his grave. He's just kind of buried there. But in 1817, the town is renamed from Bucktown to Bucksport, which is what it is today. Umm, and this is after he's died, so he's unaware that it becomes Bucksport. But the irony that he would be rolling over in his grave for this, they renamed it Bucksport one to keep, umm, like it in honor of him for Buck, but Buck's Port instead of Bucktown is because they started growing in shipping businesses.
Christine: Well, that's what I was gonna say. Like, I thought he would've wanted to call it Bucksport because of the boats.
Em: Right. But he... I guess he gave up on the boats and then only when he died did the shipping...
Christine: Oh, he gave up on the boats?
Em: Industry start growing there.
Christine: He didn't make those?
Em: It sounds like it. It sounds like... It sounds like he just kind of lived his life with his... With his sawmill and his one boat.
Christine: Oh. I thought he was making boats eventually. Okay. He... We just... He just died and never made a boat?
Em: He just died. And then the town decided, Hey, you know what? This area is pretty good for shipping. Let's grow in that industry and rename ourselves Bucksport. And I have a feeling that he's just going, oh my God. So I had to create an entire fucking town. 'Cause the last one didn't want my shipping business, then I die. And then this town I created...
Christine: Oh, I don't know. I feel...
Em: Now has a shipping business.
Christine: I feel the opposite. I feel like he's pulling the strings from beyond. He's like, you better get those boats in the fucking water, man. I've been waiting generations for this. [laughter]
Em: That's actually a good point. Maybe, maybe this was all his... His long con into the afterlife.
Christine: Stick to the plan. Yeah.
Em: Well, so, uh, anyway, he died in the 1790s. The town was renamed in the 18 teens. And then in the 1850s, this is almost 60 years after he's died, his descendants still live in Bucksport. There's still people there with the last name Buck. They know that they're related to him. And I think they decided that they wanted to give him a little more of an homage than just his kind of, at the time dinky little grave. So they decide to give him this big monument where he's buried.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And it's like this basically like a massive pillar, like a column, like it's a...
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: And it's only a few feet away from his original grape. So technically, if you're going to look at the pillar, you gotta look like a couple feet away. And that's actually where he is buried. But the monument is what people care about these days because...
Christine: Okay.
Em: As soon as this tomb or this this pillar was erected, people started noticing something very weird about it. There is a mysterious leg shaped stain right in the middle of the stone. And it really looks like...
Christine: What?
Em: It looks like a woman's like knee to foot wearing a boot. Like it looks exactly like that.
Christine: You have a picture for me?
Em: Here you go. It looks like a leg and a foot.
[laughter]
Christine: Okay. I see.
Em: It looks like a stalking on a mantle.
Christine: It does, but it looks kind of like a creepy Whoville version of a stalking on a mantle. Like a little bit like too pointy.
Em: Well, you know, every time you say Whoville you gotta do the song.
Christine: Uh, nope, it's not time yet. Don't even try me.
Em: It's not too far away. You don't wanna wetten your whistle and practice a little bit?
Christine: No, I sure don't.
Em: Okay. Okay. Well...
Christine: It's a special time and it deserves its own special occasion.
Em: Okay. It's very sacred.
Christine: You know what I will sing you?
[vocalization]
Em: Let's hear it.
Christine: That's an anytime... Stop. [laughter]
Em: Okay. Actually, you know what, I would love? If you can...
Christine: Just kind of ruin my day.
Em: If you can pair those songs together for Christmas, that'd be beautiful.
Christine: We'll see.
Em: So there's... Okay, so this is the grave. Now that people see there's this mysterious stain, it looks like a leg kind of dangling in the middle of the monument. And, uh, many people have tried even wiping the stain away, uh, thinking that they're, you know, cleaning up the grave. But no matter what people do, the smudge always comes back and they can't figure out why.
Christine: What?
Em: So, in the 1880s, this is far after he's passed away, but I think this is... Uh, there's a... Oh, this is right around the time where the monument was erected, so it's kind of technically news. Umm, in the 1880s, the Philadelphia Enquirer, even though we're in Maine, somehow picks up on this. I wonder if someone was visiting Maine and then went back and wrote for their own paper on this. But they cover the story of this mysterious stain showing up on this monument in Maine. [laughter] And, uh, they use what I have to assume is incredible artistic license because before this article came out, there is like no real documented anything about this.
Em: I think they just decided, Hey, I guess I'm gonna write this whole story about something in a whole other state and maybe 'cause it's several states away, they'll never even know I wrote this. Umm, and there's talk about the reporter actually waiting around for updates on a different story, and he was just trying to come up with interesting articles in the meantime.
Christine: Anything.
Em: Yeah. So it... Maybe that's what...
Christine: Oh, to live in a time where there's just nothing happening ever.
[laughter]
Christine: You're just so bored with the news.
Em: That you have to like sensationalize nothing.
Christine: Oh, I wish.
Em: So this article comes out very, you know, not backed...
Christine: Flowery?
Em: Very flowery, not backed by really any evidence at all about this mysterious leg-shaped stain and how it got there. And so this begins the rumored past of the Cursed Colonel Buck. The story went that in his time, and again, remember he died oh, like 60 plus years ago. So there's nobody to even... He can't defend himself, right?
Christine: Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
Em: It's... It's the perfect crime. You just say whatever you want about this person and no one can confirm or deny 'cause half the people are dead.
Christine: That's perfect. You're right.
Em: Umm, so the story goes that Buck was not only the founder, but he was the town judge. Apparently he actually was a justice of the peace, umm, at the time. So that's not too far off.
Christine: Okay.
Em: But he was the town judge, and during this time, he ordered, uh, maybe many, but one in particular, a woman, uh, to death for witchcraft. Witchcraft. He put her to death. So...
Christine: But this is just the story. This is not real?
Em: This is the story.
Christine: Okay.
Em: I... We don't know because there's no one to fact check it.
Christine: I see. So this is his version of, of... This journalist's version of events, but we have no proof of this?
Em: This is what he wrote in the lunch break room while he was waiting for updates on the actual story he wanted up.
Christine: Understood. Okay.
Em: So he was a town judge. He put this woman to death for witchcraft. And during his time, umm, when he... When he ordered her to death, moments before she died, she put a curse on him for what he was up to. And thus the witch's leg-shaped stain has plagued his grave ever since. So I'll get more into the detail in a second. But long story short, that was the Philadelphia Enquirer, and nobody really paid attention to the article, one, because nobody in Philadelphia gave a shit about something in Maine. Umm, that was probably the main reason. It just like didn't... They're like, oh, there's this like, cool little rumor, like what a... What a fun little story. Haha. Anyway. Eight months later, though, other news outlets, I guess equally bored, pick up this story and keep rewriting it. It's literally like telephone, but in the news. And so they pick up the first story from the Philadelphia Enquirer, and eventually the hometown newspaper of Colonel Buck hears about this and writes their own version of the story.
Christine: Oh my God.
Em: And this is the hometown, not the hometown that he has set for himself in Maine. This is not Bucksport Maine.
Christine: Right. The Massachusetts one?
Em: This is... The Massachusetts he so openly was upset by then that he had to move away.
Christine: Oh, boy.
Em: And so I don't know if they also had animosity towards him. I can't imagine why if 60 years have passed. But anyway, there's... There's still not a lot of fact checking going on. And I think this is when the story really took off because not only was it his hometown paper, but on the flip side, there was a lot of people from this town reading about a cursed man from their town. I think it...
Christine: Right, right. It's suddenly like local interest. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. It's like, oh my God, this guy who used to live here, he is like fucking cursed and he's got this like, haunted grave up in Maine. So the paper was the Haver... Haverhill Mass... Haverhill, Massachusetts.
Christine: It's not... I think that's right. Yeah.
Em: Umm, the paper was the Haverhill Gazette and people, people in Haverhill are now reading about it and they're like, holy shit. And that's when the story really takes off. And this is when people start paying attention to all and every...
Christine: Oh. Even if it's a long... Sorry. You can start that over I guess.
Em: Haverhill?
Christine: Yeah. Haverhill, I think.
Em: Oh, okay, great. Okay. So the paper was the Haverhill Gazette and people in Haverhill, which is where he is from, are now invested. And once people got invested in the article, it really started to blow up and people were paying attention to any and every version they could... They could find out, people are making up their own versions. The... It's extensive. Umm, some of the ways that this story has turned itself into its own. Like each of them feel like a different local legend basically. But, umm, the bottom line is that a man from Haverhill is cursed by a witch. And every version that starts kind of pouring out is a different way that he either killed the witch or a different thing the witch cursed him with. Or, umm, so like, for example, the most, uh, clean version of the story is that she's accused of being a witch and he has her hanged.
Em: Then there's another version where she's accused of being a witch and he burned her at the stake. Then there's a version where she's actually a woman he was sleeping with and got pregnant, and then his wife almost found out, and when she threatened to tell his wife, he covered it up by sentencing her to death. Then there's a version where he did this exact same thing, but the mother is the woman who curses his grave. So the mother is the witch, and then he can... So now he's... Was he sentencing two people to death? I don't know. Umm...
Christine: I... This really is just like telephone man. I mean, okay.
Em: I mean back then I guess with no social media, no like direct wiring of...
Christine: Fact checking.
Em: Yeah. There's no...
Christine: By the way, like journalists can kind of say whatever the fuck they want in the newspapers. So your sources, your primary sources are like pretty flawed.
Em: It... It was, I mean, I think there was just... There was no checks or balances to this. It was just like, oh, I heard this story too. And I... I took a reporting job and it's the 1880s. How about I tell what I remember of it, and then it just got totally fucked up again. So another version is that he actually has the town help him kill her by strapping her to her own front door and setting the house on fire.
Christine: Okay. Like, I feel... Okay. All right, everybody. All right, everybody. That's the kid at the playground who just wanted the most attention and was like, you know...
Em: It's like, "My dad helped set her on fire." Okay.
Christine: Exactly. My aunt knows him. Yeah. I swear to God, whoever made that up just wanted attention. And also, like, don't you think that would've at least made family history?
Em: Some news. Yes.
Christine: Like, don't you think the family would at least remember this?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I don't think so.
Em: Well, uh, there... Speaking of the witch's family, there's another version where she had a son. In some of the versions, he was the illegitimate child of Colonel Buck and the witch. And then they secretly raised this kid outside of his other six kids.
Christine: Of course.
Em: And then he got her pregnant for a second time and didn't wanna deal with the... A second illegitimate child. So he only killed the second illegitimate child. I mean, it's, it's out of control. A different version is that the, the son of this accused witch, whether or not he's related to Colonel Buck, he apparently he was... Was born with some like, umm, some physical, I don't know what the right word is here. So I'm sorry if this isn't PC, but like deformities, like, there's like something... There was a condition going on that people would be able to spot. And umm, basically that's like a main part of the story that her son is like cast away from society because ugh, someone who looks different and he ends up witnessing his mom being burned to death. Her leg falls off from the fire. Like... Like she's being burned and her body is now falling apart. He grabs her leg trying to save her, and then beats Colonel Buck with the leg.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And then with the leg, runs away, never to be seen again. And some additional versions of the story are that with the blood from her leg, he painted her leg with her blood onto his grave, even though he's alive. But on, on Colonel Buck's Monument, while Colonel Buck is alive, that doesn't exist.
Christine: And the monument has not been built yet, right? Okay.
Em: It has not been built... It won't be built for another 60, 70, 80 years, but the monument exists and the... Apparently the, the gross son takes his mother's leg and paints with the blood all over the grave that didn't even exist.
Christine: Paint's a leg on it? Like what are you talking about people?
Em: Like it aches... I'm telling you the stories range from fucking bizarre to bizarro.
Christine: Like at least, he would've atleast painted a middle finger or something. Like why would he paint...
Em: Or like a fuck you. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Anyway, so when I tell you there's no rhyme or reason to it. That's what I'm saying. So anyhow, every version similarly describes the woman threatening to either dance on his grave, hence the leg appearing on the monument or, and or saying some version of this quote. Even the quotes were so fucked up. Like, like the way that I looked at... How many sources did I... Did I use for this? 15. I used 15 sources for this. I feel like every single one of them, none of them were similar direct quotes. They were all kind of the same, but the words had definitely been moved around and stuff like that. So then none of this is even a direct quote, which is why I have to say all the versions had something similar to this. And this is what I will read to you. And... Wow. Talk about flowery. If someone made this up, which it sounds like they did, 'cause I can't believe this story is true. But someone took the time to write this as if they were a witch cursing somebody. Let's remember that.
Christine: Okay. But just... But just imagine the idea that somebody, if... Like if this is real, that somebody actually spoke this way and like came up with this direct quote. I think...
Em: Power move.
Christine: That's even wilder.
Em: It's even wilder. Because if this is the last thing you're gonna say, she really said, okay, if I'm about to die, I'm gonna make my last words really fucking poetic. It was...
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Either way worth, worth the listen. So, so here I go. This is what I'm gonna... I'm gonna be her. Jonathan Buck. Listen to these words. The last my tongue shall utter. It is the spirit of the only true and living God which bids me speak them to you. You will soon die. Over your grave, they will erect a stone that all may know were the bones of the mighty Jonathan Buck are crumbling to dust. But listen, listen, all ye people, tell it to your children and your children's children, upon that stone will appear the imprint of my foot. And for all time long, long after your accursed race has perished from the earth, the people will come far and near and the unborn generations will say, there lies the man who murdered a woman. So long shall my curse be upon thee and my sign upon thy tombstone. Remember well, Jonathan Buck. Remember well.
Christine: I just pictured the like guy at the gallows like, okay, are you done? Is it over? Can we...?
Em: I just imagine the reporter frantically writing in his little notepad. Like...
Christine: Yeah. Like ye? Did he say thou or doth. Hold on. Behest? What?
Em: And, and I mean, like you said, if this really was something that a person said, uh, as she was about to die, I would never have the, the, the clarity to say something that beautiful if the last... If that's the last thing I'm ever gonna say, you know.
Christine: I would.
Em: Oh, okay. Well, great. Uh, so anyway, that's what she allegedly says. Maybe... Which like feels so on the nose by the way of like...
Christine: Yeah. My leg will appear on your tomb. Like, okay, why? Like, for what? What reason? I don't understand.
Em: It's like... It's like... Which I guess I'm trying to justify it in this reporter's mind of how it could be believable. Not everyone knew what was going on in the world of witchcraft. And if you did know... If you did understand the symbolism to that, then you should go to be burnt at the stake 'cause you're a fucking witch. Like, I don't know. Like so maybe he was banking on people not even wanting to...
Christine: Wanting to question...
Em: Question.
Christine: Okay.
Em: So rumors say that ever since his death, that leg appears on his grave. And it's a sign that Buck shall always bear the mark of his actions of murdering, uh, an innocent woman. Uh, even though maybe not so innocent if the curse you put on him actually worked. But okay. Ever since, the stain has always stayed, even when people tried cleaning it off and allegedly the monument has even been replaced twice, and yet the stain still appears exactly as it does.
Christine: Okay. Okay. That's weird.
Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine: I was gonna say, it looks like maybe some lichen or something. I'm gonna pull it up. Okay. Wow. Okay. So yeah, I was gonna say, it looks kind of like moss or lichen or something, but has it actually been replaced? 'Cause that's so expensive.
Em: No.
Christine: Oh. [laughter] I was like, 'cause then I might be convinced. Okay. [laughter]
Em: No. Uh, the story goes that it's been replaced at least twice, but apparently local stone cutters have said like we have not ever replaced that.
Christine: Yeah, I feel like they would... Again, they would know. Like why is nobody asking them?
Em: And also there would be... In today's world where this is a, a... First of all, let's remember this town has one fucking traffic light. Like everybody knows what's going on, on every inch of this town.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: Uh, like my... My dad lives in a town where I... When we got a grocery store, it... We had a parade for the grocery. Like, it... We like... It's, it's a big deal when anything happens, when nothing's going on in your town.
Christine: Right.
Em: Umm, so I feel like if stone cutters were making a new monument to replace the haunted cursed one, the town would've heard about it.
Christine: Over and over again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: There would be news like, you know.
Christine: There would be a plaque or something.
Em: Something. So, and, and they have said, no, we never replaced it. Anyway, the, the rumors go that it's been replaced. We've done everything we can, we've cleaned it. It always reappears. As time has passed, the story constantly recycles itself and the monument is now known as one of the most common legends of Bucksport. And realistically now, if we were to debunk it, which every source does, so this isn't just me trying to be like a negative Nelly. Every, every source has been like, let me not look like that first reporter and actually like try to be unbiased here.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Nowadays people can leave comments and fact check things. Yeah.
Em: Exactly. So now, uh, the story is most likely, and by most likely, I mean probably 99.99% not true. Umm, in fact, a plaque has been put up next to the monument with facts to debunk the story.
Christine: Okay. 'Cause it's... Descendants are probably like, can you stop calling grandpapa a murderer? Like, what is wrong with you? Like why did that have to be the angle? Why couldn't you have said he just had a foot fetish or something? Like something like not incriminating you know.
Em: I want you to remember that foot fetish comment, Christine.
Christine: I... I... I assure you I will never forget.
Em: [laughter] So, umm, and funny you say that too, for them to be like, why would that be grandpapa's legacy? That man just wanted to build a fucking ship and have no one complain.
Christine: And he didn't... He didn't wanna walk anymore.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And look what happened.
Em: Honestly, if you're... If all your descendants are gonna put up a monument and it doesn't have a ship based, maybe they actually... Hmm, maybe we need to put up a new monument.
Christine: Wait a minute.
Em: Maybe that... That man deserves to be buried in a ship.
Christine: Wait a minute. Oh, first of all, a ton of fireworks just started. That was not intentional. I wish that I could have turned up the mic for that.
Em: You are a witch. Actually, this is...
Christine: That was actually incredible.
Em: You're... You're the one that got away.
Christine: Oh, man. My foot accurseth thou. No. I seriously have a point. He hated to walk.
Em: He hated to walk.
Christine: There's a foot on his grave.
Em: Now that is true hell. That's like someone putting a treadmill on my grave. I'm like, oh my God. You like couldn't think of anything worse. Or if you just actually... If someone sketched a room that had no air conditioning in it, oh my God. The worst thing you could put on my monument.
Christine: Where like with an arrow that says like, there's no central air in here. Like a...
Em: It just shows a... It's just a, a broken window unit, you know.
Christine: It's an unplugged window unit. Umm. Yeah, I'm just thinking, what could a foot mean? And then I'm like, wait, he had gout too.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Huh.
Em: Interesting. Actually, that's a great point. I... I hadn't thought of that.
Christine: Thanks.
Em: Wow. Well done. Well, so yeah, there... Like I said, there's a plaque where they literally try to state reasons why the story is not true.
Christine: It's so sad.
Em: And, and because you said like, why would that be his legacy? Literally on the plaque it calls him... It says, Colonel Buck was an honorable industrious man. Like, it's like, please leave him alone.
Christine: He just wanted to make a living for his family.
Em: It's like he literally was a random guy who would've never set this up. He's probably rolling in his grave that this is his legacy. Like, I'll... I mean, if you're not someone who like is, you know, famously interested in the paranormal or anything, all you want to do is build some fucking boats and like have some land for your family.
Christine: And like didn't believe in witchcraft. None of that. Just had nothing to do with it.
Em: Yeah. And all of a sudden now, like you are known for the... Having this monument with this crazy story. He... He has to be going like, what the fuck?
Christine: And all because his family just wanted to like honor him.
Em: Yes.
Christine: And then it just went... Spiraled out of control.
Em: It just happened to be like, like they probably just got like a cheap slab. I don't know. Like it was just like something funky about it.
Christine: Yeah, they... They... Yeah, they got... For sure. For sure. They must have messed something up.
Em: So, uh, some of the reasons... This is both reasons the plaque lists as to why the story can't be true. And also this is a list of the reasons that reporters have now written in today's world about why it can't be true. Is that Colonel Buck never had... He was a justice of the peace, but he never had the authority to try a person, let alone kill them or execute them or put them to death. Umm, Colonel Buck was also born in 1719, which even though that seems like forever away, it was long after the last witch was ever executed in America.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Umm, the last new in... And since this is Maine. Fun fact, the last of the New England witches, uh, or the witch trials was Salem in 1692. So that was 20 years...
Christine: I believe there was one later, but not in New England. Like I... I believe it was...
Em: Right.
Christine: Yeah. Okay.
Em: Umm, and so at least for New England, the last witch trial was 20 years before he was born, so...
Christine: Yeah. Okay.
Em: So he was not... This was not an era where it was normal for him to be doing something like that if he was even doing that. Plus there is no record at all in US history of anyone being executed for witchcraft in Maine.
Christine: Oh my God.
Em: So he certainly wasn't doing it. And if he was, there would be a record of him being the first, you know, especially in a town where not much is going on. He would've... It would've been in the paper.
Christine: You think so? Yeah.
Em: And of the witches who were killed in New England, none of them were burned alive. They were all either pressed or hanged.
Christine: Cool.
Em: So the, the story of her being strapped to her own house and set on fire, which sounds like the most insane thing in the entire world.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Quelle surprise. Not actually true. And the last important thing to note, because remember I said it's important to remember when he died, is that, umm, the story goes that ever since he died, he's been cursed. But because the witch died and then years later he died and the thought is, well, we know now that he's dead, he's being cursed by this witch. But he died and then 60 years later was this monument erected, and only then did a stain show up, and therefore a story got created about this witch.
Christine: Right. It's backwards. Yeah. Yeah.
Em: So it's not like he was cursed the moment he died. He was cursed 60 years later when people saw a foot on a monument and people were wondering what that was about. So...
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't add up.
Em: Nobody ever knew him as an executioner of witches in his life or 60 years after his death. It was much later that the story got created. It was generations after. Umm, and when people say like, well, okay, well, what the fuck is this stain then? Most people, probably the same stone cutters they asked about the last thing, they all say that the stain is probably just a... It's a very common thing where there's additional iron in a piece of the slab and you can't wipe it away, but when it oxidizes, it reappears on the surface.
Christine: Oh. Okay. That explains it.
Em: So people... This is like... I like how people are like, okay, fine.
Christine: Boring. Boring.
Em: So then... So then they start realizing that they spotted another stain on the monument in the shape of a sideways heart. And people started spilling that rumor, spreading that rumor that, oh, there's a sideways heart. That must mean that he's actually in... Was in love with the witch, or that he was into feet.
Christine: Oh, yeah. See I told you.
Em: Which involves your super little foot fetish story.
Christine: I told you.
Em: I mean, like... And I think about like a slab of concrete or like marble countertops or something, and I'm like, you could find anything if you look hard enough in the little dots you know, so...
Christine: Oh, have I ever shown you. I have this thing in my shower. I cannot believe I've never talked about this on the podcast. There's this design in my shower, like right where you stand while I'm washing my hair at eye level, that looks to me like the devil, like with horns...
Em: Oh. My god.
Christine: Like a goat... A goat demon. And I used to like try and avoid looking at it. Like it really used to freak me out. And now I'm like... I always say hi to him now. But I should... I'm gonna send a photo because like, I've never... I've never taken a photo of it and, umm, it, like, I cannot unsee it, you know what I mean? But that also I feel like is more detailed than like a sideways heart. Like I feel like I could find that in a slab of con... Like a slab of marble or something.
Em: I'm sure if... I... I... I think it only takes one person to say that kinda looks like a sideways heart and then everyone knows it, you know?
Christine: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Em: Umm, but I like how as soon as they probably put this plaque up being like, the, the foot thing is not real. Everyone was like, but have you seen the heart? Like, like, there, there has to be something going on with this damn monument.
Christine: Rebuttal.
Em: It's like... And this poor man buried underneath it all is probably like, Jesus Christ. It's a slab of concrete. Like, can everyone leave me alone? Umm...
Christine: Just tear it down. Leave me alone.
Em: Yeah. He's probably like, thanks grandchildren, but honestly, you've done a lot more damage than you planned to.
Christine: Right?
Em: Can you just... Can I just have my dinky little gravestone again and everyone leave me alone.
Christine: Let's just take it then.
Em: Umm, I'm surprised, you know, for the people who, like, if you... If there's like a particularly famous gravestone, people will leave things there. I'm surprised people don't like leave shoes or something. Or like...
Christine: Oooh.
Em: Witchcraft pieces. Like, I don't know, I feel like someone would leave something there or like sneak in at, at night and do a Ouija board session next to it. Umm, but I didn't see anything about that. In fact, I think there's a fence around it probably because people were doing that.
Christine: Mmh.
Em: So anyway, either way this tomb has become a tourist attraction. Umm, besides, I... I would be more interested in the very only... Very first and only traffic light. But some people are really into this tomb instead.
Christine: I know you and I would be like across the street, like, what are those people looking at?
Em: I'd literally buy a sandwich and then sit out in the road and watch it go from red to green and then I'd go, ooh.
Christine: And we would just cheer. Yeah, we would be so excited. We'd be like, "Eva, run through."
Em: This is how I know something's going on that a therapist needs to diagnose. I'm like, I like... The fact that I could become like a, a stepdad into trains when it comes to the only traffic light around. I... I would really go nuts with that.
Christine: It's... Em's a sucker for the only something.
Em: I would wear red, yellow, green. There'd be a theme, obviously. I would...
Christine: Obviously.
Em: It would be a great time. Umm, and because this became a tourist attraction and people wanted to see this stain for themselves, the legend continued. It has inspired books in town, it has inspired souvenirs. And this really teeters on favorite fun facts for me in the same realm as like Dennis the cat from, uh, I think it was the Idaho Penitentiary.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Uh, as obsessed as I am with Dennis the Cat Day, people have become so, uh, enamored with this, this witch cursed monument that Bucksport, Maine, every year, they have this Halloween festival where they change the town's name for one day and they change it from Bucksport to Ghost Port. And at Ghost Port, umm, they have an annual Jonathan Bucks race to the Grave coffin race.
[laughter]
Em: And according to one newspaper, this is a quote from them about... Because obviously I looked it up, I was like, what in the fuck is a race to the grave coffin race? Umm, the winner of the coffin race receives a check of $500 written to the charity or nonprofit of their choosing. Motor... And I guess it's essentially a soapbox derby kind of thing where you build a coffin and a person has to be in it, and you race to the monument. Umm, but you don't go downhill. People just, actually, it's kind of more like a... It's like if, umm, if a soapbox derby and a chariot race had a baby, so it's someone has to be in the soapbox, but someone's, they're... You're pushing it instead of letting the downhill, uh, motion drag you.
Christine: Oh. There's no... It's not like a go-kart. There's no like, motor or anything. It's just...
Em: Well, because the next... The next quote I'm gonna say from this newspaper article is, motorized coffins are not allowed.
[laughter]
Em: Thus, each coffin must have four men or women teams pushing it down Main Street. Each coffin must also have a Jonathan riding in the casket.
Christine: Shut the fuck up. Here. You be the dead guy. You sit in here.
Em: All Jonathans must wear a helmet during the coffin race. And all participants... All participants must be 16 or older, including Jonathan.
[laughter]
Christine: Oh my God. What the fuck?
Em: So, if you're ever in, uh, in Bucksport, Maine in October, you just might be able to catch the Jonathan Buck race to the grave, coffin race to the grave coffin race. And you can...
Christine: I see... I see your Maine shirt, Em. I see you're wearing a Maine shirt right now.
Em: I am wearing a Maine shirt. I didn't even mean to do that. That's lovely.
Christine: Oh, I thought you did that intentionally.
Em: No, that's just... It's just meant to be that I... Maybe I need to be a Jonathan in a coffin.
Christine: Would you wanna be the Jonathan? Obviously you wouldn't.
Em: Oh, oh. Hmm. Do I wanna run or not? Hmm. Uh, what... Yeah. I wanna be...
Christine: Also that feels extra to me since he hated to walk. But I guess it's like in honor of him, he gets to sit down while everyone else has to run.
Em: That's true. That's true.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: I think it would be lovely if someone built their coffin to also kind of give like a ship vibe.
Christine: A ship? Yeah. Absolutely. I bet people do.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Especially if that's the town's whole thing.
Em: Uh, anyway, I hope... I would love to know who has, uh, participated in this coffin race.
Christine: Yes. If you have, can you send... Like, tag us in a photo, or like send us if you... If anybody has any Youtube.
Em: I would love to know what your coffin looked like, because people like decorate it and make a whole thing of it.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And it's... I mean, I... We, I... I grew up in a town. They don't do it anymore, which is like so sad. It's kind of like a, a, a showing of like how times are changing. But I... I grew up in a town where it was like a big deal to be a part of the soapbox derby. And so I think if someone told me there's a soapbox derby put their coffins, I would've lost my fucking mind.
Christine: [laughter] It's like the goth, the goth soapbox derby. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Umm, so anyway, that is the Tomb of Colonel Jonathan Buck.
Christine: Wow. Well, you know what, Em, never a dull moment on this damn podcast.
Em: Mm-mm.
Christine: I, uh, could not have begun to guess what your topic was gonna be today, and the fact that...
Em: Or how it would end.
Christine: Or how it would end, certainly not. And the fact that my foot fetish comment, gotta hold that thought is just next level exciting for me.
Em: You're really... You're really on your game today. I was... I... You said, uh, you... Every time you said something, I was like, well, hang on a second now.
Christine: Oh. And then I started some fireworks. I don't even know how I did that. But...
Em: With your finger. As soon as you pointed, it's like you conjured them.
Christine: You know, 'cause I don't get the cool... I don't get all the cool designs on my computer like you do with all the like, uh, fireworks and all stuff. So I have to conjure it myself by hand. DIY you know?
Em: Yeah. You're like an old school witch. It's like I had to do it with my fucking brain and my hands. That's crazy.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And I'll put my leg on your grave too.
[laughter]
Em: If you had to have a weird shape on your monument that is said to haunt you for life, what... For...
Christine: Probably a butt or something. I don't know.
Em: That's pretty good. Not...
Christine: Like just something silly. I don't know. What would you do?
Em: I don't know. I'm trying to think of what would draw people in, because I would... If I'm ever someone who is buried, I don't think I will be. If I were to be buried though, the only reason I would agree to that in advance is if I knew people were going to be coming to my grave and throwing a fucking party all the time. Like, I want...
Christine: Oh. I mean, you can still have like a grave just because you're not buried...
Em: No, but I need something to draw more people in. So like, I would need something to be like...
Christine: I know. But what I'm saying is you don't have to physically be buried there. Like, you can still have a mon... Like a gravestone, like a monument.
Em: That's true.
Christine: Like if you're cremated.
Em: That's true. I don't know. I guess I hadn't thought about it that way. But if I had to have something on a grave, I would like it to be something that draws people in. So something weird, like, I don't know, I... A piece of pie.
Christine: An unplugged air conditioner?
Em: [laughter] I don't know. Yeah. Something... Like something with food or drinks. That way people wanna bring that to me and then like, all hang out there. Like something... Something funny.
Christine: Oh, fantastic. Yeah. I would put probably a middle finger just to make fun of... Like, just to be like, hee hee. Teehee.
Em: And that would get a lot of attention too. So it actually would work out very well.
Christine: I'm saying, I think I would have a great time if I put a middle finger on my coffin. Okay. So Emathy, I have a story for you today. Talk about wackadoo, okay? This is a wackadoo story. And this is one that I, uh, originally I've heard... I've known about for a long time. But I... I heard about in depth on Sinisterhood, and they did a, uh, I believe it was a multi parter, but either way it was a very thorough, umm, and I'm gonna cover the Branch Davidians today. Do you know this story?
Em: Nope.
Christine: Okay. I used to hear it and be like, this sounds so boring. Just 'cause it's just words that I don't understand, but...
Em: Okay.
Christine: It's not, okay.
Em: Okay.
Christine: In the mid 1800s, a Baptist man named William Miller declared that he had done some calculations using his calculator, aka, the Bible. And...
Em: [laughter] Okay.
Christine: Who needs an abacus when you've got a Bible?
Em: Who needs math and reason? Yep. Okay.
Christine: No, no, no. No. Not I. Uh, he had done his calculations using the Bible, and he determined that the apocalypse would happen one day between March, 1843 and March, 1844. So he knew the exact year. He was like, I know when it's happening. I got it. My calculations are correct.
Em: I like how in that way, the Bible is also a farmer's almanac of like, just like...
Christine: Yeah, that's so true. Like...
Em: Odd... Oddly on point.
Christine: Don't bear... Don't, don't, don't plant too many corn stalks this year. I clearly don't read the Farmer's Almanac. I probably should. Umm, so anyway, he said that on that day, when the apocalypse was to take place, Jesus Christ would return to earth to, you know, usher in the end of the world as he does. And because I guess it was the 1800s, I don't know. William amassed a huge following, many of whom gave away everything in preparation for the rapture. And they believed, you know, they follow this guy. I mean, this tale is old as time. If they follow this guy, they'll ascend to heaven, unlike all the sinners and non-believers, you know?
Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine: But wouldn't you know it. March, 1844 came and went. Can you imagine every day that gets closer to like his end of his range... Time range? He's like fuck. Fuck.
Em: He's like, I am kind of, uh-hmm. Look over there. Look over there. Yeah. I... I mean, it's, umm, it's a beautiful thing to watch people with a, a cult-like following where they make massive predictions, it's...
Christine: Just like stumble.
Em: I love to watch them fail. I love to watch them fail. I'm like okay.
Christine: Yeah. It's just a beautiful thing. It, it... Like it... 'Cause it's like, we know you're going. We all know, you know, except you, I guess.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Or do you think...
Em: I have...
Christine: Do you think he believed it? Like, I never understand if these people like really think this is true, or they're just like trying to fuck everyone?
Em: I've always... I mean, I obviously don't know. I... I... I... I always assume that they start out believing in things and then because...
Christine: It like takes on a...
Em: It be like because they have a following or something, it... Something like sets off their ego in a new way where it's like, well I've... I've either been right up to now, or I've been cunning enough up until now that other people believe it and therefore maybe it is true.
Christine: Yeah. Even if I'm wrong. Like I feel like there's an element of...
Em: Like there's some sort of confirmation bias.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. Like, even if I'm wrong, why would I have all these followers if I weren't like doing something right. You know? Or like if I weren't a genius or whatever the fuck. A prophet.
Em: I also wonder if maybe their, umm, their predictions early on are things you can actually kind of predict. And so I think every time they make a prediction, it's just one step a little further out of the realm of reality. And then eventually even they're surprised when their prediction isn't accurate. Because all the other ones before were, you know.
Christine: Like what?
Em: I don't know. I feel like you could predict like it's gonna rain. It's like 'cause you saw the forecast and no one else did. Like, I feel like they...
Christine: Because you read the Farmer's Almanac. Yeah.
Em: Like, I feel like they pick something that's like, kind of like, there's at least a 50/50 chance you could be right. And then as time goes on, it's like a 1% chance. And like you just, you're making bigger and bigger claims because...
Christine: I mean, I think that would be a smart thing to do. I don't necessarily think that, I mean, I... I don't know. This guy for sure did not start small. He just said, I figured out what day Jesus is coming. And everyone was like, okay.
Em: That's true. Yeah. I don't know.
Christine: So I don't know where that came from, but it doesn't look like he built it up. He just kind of jumped out.
Em: And I mean, there's still people today. There was someone... Remember when the, the recent eclipse happened.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Someone, uh, from my past who is, umm, heavily involved in religion was like, "Are you... You're nervous, yeah?" And I was like, "No." [laughter] I was like, well, I was like, why on earth would I care?
Christine: I'm nervous 'cause I was gonna stare right at it. I knew I was, I knew I would look at it. I can't help myself.
Em: Well, she said something like, I mean, the, the Bible, it's like pretty accurate. Like on how, like on the things that are, you know, it's predicted in pretty important things. I was like, "What about all the other eclipses?" And she was like, "Well, I don't know." I was like, okay. So.
Christine: People have lost their damn minds. I tell you what.
Em: Yeah. It just... It's... So maybe he really thought he was onto something and I really... I don't know.
Christine: I think your first theory is right. That like he probably believed it to an extent. And then when everyone started following him, it was either too late to turn back or he just like confirmation biased his way into like, well, I mean, look, I have all these followers. Like I must be some sort of prophet if I have a following. You know? And then like, you don't wanna give that up.
Em: Yeah. I don't know... I don't know what the thing is that gives them like such an air. Like I don't... I can't tell if they real... I mean, you already said it, but I really don't know if they believe it, or maybe they think if they...
Christine: I think it also depends. I think there are some cults where cult leaders are like in it just to fuck... Like, just to be a cult leader.
Em: For the power.
Christine: Yeah. Exactly. And I think sometimes it, almost, a narcissist tries to be some sort of prophet like character, and then it like spirals into, no, you're just a plain old cult leader.
Em: You know, what cult would get me? And not a specific cult, but like, if, if there was a cult leader out there who... If you really wanted to swindle some people, if you started from the beginning and said, I don't know if I'm right. Like, I think this is gonna happen. I'm not sure. Because then you've already admitted defeat in case it doesn't work out. And I would've... I'd totally eat that up. I'd be like, man, this, this person's like really just trying. Like, I... Like I could see that, but I... I don't understand the people who latch onto someone who's so bold with it so quickly about outlandish things.
Christine: Wait. So wait. So you would give up your whole livelihood just to... For somebody who's like, I don't know.
Em: No. I could see someone who like, is, uh... I don't know, I guess the right way to say it is, I... I would be much more easily swindled to believe someone. Not like, uh, like join a cult immediately. But if someone had some kind of reason behind it and then it didn't work, like I would... I think I'd see them as more human instead of like someone I'm following into...
Christine: You know they don't want to... You don't want to... They don't want you to see them as human.
Em: I think that... That's what... That's why there's so few of them like that. But I... I could see someone having an idea and then me, like being open-minded to it, and then slowly kind of getting slow, like sucked in, which is kind of... Umm, well, nevermind. I was gonna conflate it to QAnon, but that's kind of a, a messy analogy there. But anyway, umm, anyway, I, no, I... I, I don't... I... In this specific story, I really do struggle with understanding when someone just comes out really quick with an outlandish idea versus like kind of a, a, a warm one to kind of ease you in.
Christine: Because people like to feel secure. People like to feel like someone knows something and they can just like believe them and follow them and like feel in control, like somebody's helping, you know what I mean? Like, people like to have that security. And so when he's saying like, oh, don't worry if you join me, like, you'll make it into heaven. And I know exactly the year, don't even worry. They're like, okay, great. And so yeah, March, 1844 comes and it goes. And, uh, as Sasha wrote here, notably lacking an apocalypse.
Em: Yeah. What did... Do... Does it have like what he said afterwards, so like to counter it?
Christine: Oh, he sure did. Oh, he sure did.
Em: Okay.
Christine: He said his math was off just a little.
Em: Well, when there was no math involved, I guess that makes sense. The window was like random calculation from not a calculator.
Christine: Well, he said that, uh, he had redone the math and he determined that the world actually would end for real this time in October of 1844. He had done the math wrong the first time. So when the world didn't end in October, I know, shocking. Most of Williams's followers gave up and they were like, forget it. And apparently their collective disillusionment came to be known as the Great Disappointment, which like makes me laugh so much.
Em: Yeah. It's... Can you imagine if that's your legacy?
Christine: You're a prophet and like your legacy is the great disappointment. So sad. [laughter]
Em: The great disappointment, I feel like is something I'd name myself when things don't go well. I could...
Christine: I know with a capital TGD baby.
Em: But at least... At least it's like private and in my own head. And I... I... I get over it. I can't imagine historically being known for that. That's crazy.
Christine: That's why you don't start a cult. You know? It's just like you're... You're in danger of your ego getting just blasted to pieces. Umm...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So anyway, a small sect of William's followers were like, we're not disappointed. We'll follow you. And so they continue to meet and reevaluate William's prophecies and just, I assume, do the long division in the Bible to figure out how the hell the world's gonna end. Umm, meanwhile, there is a woman named Ellen G White, and she herself was also considered a prophet. Umm, it's around the same time a couple decades later. So she led a sect and then founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church in 1863.
Em: I see. Okay.
Christine: So the seventh day refers to the seventh day of the week, Saturday, which Seventh Day Adventists recognize as the Sabbath, unlike other Christian denominations, which of course we know observe Sunday as a Sabbath, and Advent refers to Christ impending return to Earth. And so Seventh Day Adventists believe that no human can accurately predict the date of Christ's second coming, but, that William was correct. That there will be a second coming. Just, he just doesn't know when. So...
Em: Okay.
Christine: Ellen was basically like, listen, this guy, he does... He... His formula is not gonna work. There's no formula. But he is right that it's coming. So you gotta listen to him in some regards, you know what I mean?
Em: Hmm. I wonder if they were like kind of frenemies where like he was like, Ellen is stepping on my toes, creating her own little... Her own little group of people and then Ellen was like...
Christine: It feels... It feels like condescending, right? He... She's like, well, he's sort of right. It's like, Hey Ellen.
Em: It feels... It feels almost like an... Like an, an early, uh, uh, two... Like a team up collab where it's like, I'm gonna create my thing over here, but I'll give you a shout out. And like people can still, you know, know of your version, but...
Christine: And then your version gets bigger... Like their version gets bigger and you're like, well, fuck me.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: My own followers are going over there.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So in 1844, umm, we entered... In case you forgot, we entered the final phase of judgment. I don't know if you missed that or not, but umm, we did.
Em: Oh, thank God. Okay. Thank God. No. Oh, are we scared or we excited about this?
Christine: It depends because during this time, God is investigating the earth and every person in existence. So I would say you and I, we're screwed.
Em: It's a tall order.
Christine: Yeah. So...
Em: Yeah. We're screwed for sure.
Christine: Yeah. So the... God is investigating the earth in 1844, and he's like, yikes.
Em: He was like, this is exactly the year I've always had it on my calendar for.
Christine: Yeah. William was right, Ellen. Yeah. And he is investigating every person as well. So not, this is a quote, "Not one person will experience a fate they did not choose." Okay. All right.
Em: Okay. Relax.
Christine: Sure thing. Sure thing. When Christ finishes his investigative work, he will raise all of his faithful believers, living and dead and bring them to paradise for 1000 years. Meanwhile, all of the sinners who didn't follow Christ will die.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And then...
Em: So wait. So people... So nobody is in paradise yet?
Christine: Umm, no. No, no, no.
Em: Like as of 1844, not a single person has ever been in heaven?
Christine: No. Because Jesus hasn't come back yet to get... To take us there.
Em: So... So they're all just like in purgatory or...
Christine: They're in purgatory.
Em: They're all ghosts, just waiting. So heaven had... It was population zero in the 1840s. That's interesting.
Christine: But I think that's a lot of people's belief that we enter heaven... Even after death, that we enter heaven when Christ returns. Not yet. I think that's a very, umm...
Em: Interesting. I think 'cause I always hear like...
Christine: I mean, correct me if I'm wrong folks, but I'm pretty sure that's a... That's a fundamentalist belief.
Em: I feel like I always hear when someone dies, it's like, oh, they went to go be with the Lord in heaven. It's like, oh, well. So you are in heaven.
Christine: No. I mean...
Em: I don't know. I don't know.
Christine: I do. I know for sure for facts. I have facts and I did a formula out of the Farmer's Almanac and I know exactly...
Em: Yeah. Let me... Actually, I have to subtract something and then I'll be able to figure it out, I think.
Christine: Don't you dare.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Don't you dare challenge my math. My exquisite formula. Okay. So anyway, umm, anybody who follow Jesus, he'll... They'll go to heaven for a thousand years, but only a thousand years because when a thousand years pass, the sinners will rise again. Now this sounds like fun. This is like finally the sinners get a chance back in the spotlight.
Em: Season finale material idea.
Christine: Right?
Em: So after a thousand years, like was... Then what? You just... Like what about the people who...
Christine: Oh, oh. Don't worry.
Em: Okay. Yeah.
Christine: When a thousand years pass, the sinners will rise again to fight alongside Satan in a battle against God. So it's like a battle against good and evil is gonna happen and everybody in heaven is gonna be fighting on the side of God. And we're... I say we're... Our sinner... The sinners are gonna be fighting with...
Em: We... I know what side I'm fighting for.
Christine: Oh my God, I see that guy in the shower, that devil thing. I'm like, oh no, it's true. The prophecy.
Em: He's preparing you. Well, I... So that means... I mean, then I would take it as... So for a thousand years, heaven is actually like a military bootcamp to make sure that you...
Christine: [laughter] Yeah. They're just like having you run obstacle courses. That sounds terrible. Bring me to hell. Please.
Em: That... That sounds like the opposite of heaven. But I mean, I imagine I God...
Christine: That's a great point. Army training, I don't think so.
Em: If God wants his soldiers to be strong and mighty in the Lord against Satan, then wouldn't you spend every waking second of a thousand years to make sure that you're prepared?
Christine: You know, but here's what I'll say. It's already written in prophecy that good will win.
Em: So then why are we even having the fucking battle? Okay. Okay, well, whatever.
Christine: Welcome to religion, Emathy. I don't know. None of it fucking makes sense. And so...
Em: Like, if... If God says, oh, we win, can't everyone just go, oh great. Okay, well like now...
Christine: Then why do we even have to do it?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Like, just...
Em: Sounds really hard for like no...
Christine: Just let's not. It sounds like a lot of work.
Em: Like the plot's already been solidified. Yeah. Also, we have God on our side who can do everything. So like, why don't you actually just decide for us that we don't have to have this battle at all?
Christine: Why... Like why even go there? You know? But it's just like for the drama. For the drama.
Em: It sounds... Sounds like he wants the drama. He just wants to watch a really good season finale. I get it. It's okay.
Christine: He just wants to watch the world burn. Don't we all? Okay. So God will then cleanse the earth of Satan, sin and sinners with righteous fire, restoring earth to paradise. And now God will now live on earth with his followers for eternity.
Em: Couldn't he... Since he is all powerful, couldn't he just do that right now and then come live with us?
Christine: No. 'Cause that's not the prophecy.
Em: Okay. Okay. So like I guess he has to wait on that...
Christine: Did you or did you not hear me and...
Em: Sorry. You're right.
Christine: Hear me say, in a thousand years there will be a great battle and then God will burn everybody to the ground. And then I guess like walk on our bones and like live happily ever after. I don't know. It seems very brutal.
Em: And he gets to go, ah, the bones of people I created, I'm so glad I'm walking all over them.
Christine: Yeah. Crunch, crunch.
Em: Those dirty sinners that I created. Oh.
Christine: I mean, Oof. So I guess earth... I mean, good luck being on earth in a thousand years everybody who wants to be in heaven.
Em: That'll be me.
Christine: I'm sure that'll end really well for you. Umm, anyway, so that's the plan, right? That's what they believe. So in 1918, a man named Victor T Houteff joined the Seventh Day Adventist Church. And within a few years of his conversion, he began advocating for major reform. He believed this... So, you know, at first you're like, oh, okay, good. He has a mind of reason, a voice of reason here finally. Well, what he told everybody, is that the Seventh Day Adventists needed to distill their beliefs into an even purer Christian sect because they were accepting way too much sinful behavior and they needed to shape... Shape up quick.
Em: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine: 'Cause Jesus was never gonna come if, if they're acting so sinful, you know?
Em: Right. Even though like he could... Because he's... He can do anything.
Christine: Right. But he is not going to 'cause he is petty like that, you know?
Em: Okay, sure. I guess so.
Christine: And so at least we can understand that. That's where we... That's where we all connect.
Em: I do know about pettiness. I do... I do... I did inherit that from God.
Christine: That's where Satan and God kind of shake hands and they're like, all right, we'll share this one.
Em: In the Venn diagram, just attitude is in the middle.
Christine: Attitude. Umm, yes, precisely. So he, this guy wrote all... This guy Victor wrote all these teachings in a series of publications that he named The Shepherd's Rod. No, homo. [laughter] Uh, and so, I couldn't help myself. I'm so sorry. I'm for sure going to burn in hell. Okay. The Seventh Day Adventist Church ultimately rejected Victor and his teachings. So in the mid 1930s, he and his roughly 30 followers separated from the Seventh Day Adventists and moved to Mount Carmel, which was a farm in Waco, Texas.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So this sect came to be known as the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists in reference to King David.
Em: Oh, okay.
Christine: From the Bible. And so the Davidians isolated themselves from society in order to avoid its temptations because their leader was like, oh, you're all way too sinful. If you want God to come, we gotta just remove anything negative or tempting or sinful from our lives. So they grew their own food, they made their own clothes. They like relied... Very like hyper localized, relied on each other in all things. Their commune survived the Great Depression. And then afterward, like began to continue growing. And eventually they moved to a more rural property because Waco, suburban sprawl in Waco was, you know, increasing. And so they moved to a more rural property. And in the late '50s when Victor passed away, and I don't know, went to purgatory, I guess, question mark. I have no idea.
Em: Right. Not heaven. 'Cause God forbid, that's happened yet.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, it has... It sure hasn't. Umm, the sect splintered again, and this time another prophet stepped in and formed the Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventists.
Em: Oh my God. Everyone wants their own club.
Christine: I know. And I love that they're like, oh, I wanna make a new separate club. Like, I'm gonna branch off, what should I call it? I guess I'll call it the branch, like...
Em: It just feels like... Yeah. LOL That's hysterical. It's... But it also feels like just mean girls in a sorority being like, I'll make my own sorority, because everyone here does not, just...
Christine: Everyone's mean, everyone... No one's listening to me.
Em: They Just don't get me. They just don't get me. So, umm, and I... I've applied for the e-board a million times, and no one's taking me on. So I'll be the president of my own group and they can just suffer without me.
Christine: Yeah. But, umm, you need to have some followers join you. Right? 'Cause otherwise what power do you even hold?
Em: Right. Right, right.
Christine: And so he did. And so this sect splintered again into this, umm, branch Davidian, right? Seventh Day Adventist. And right around this time, so that was in the late 1950s, in 1959 So like right around then, a boy named Vernon Wayne Howell was born in Houston, Texas in 1959 to a single mother who was just 14 years old. Vernon's grandparents took custody of him, but his childhood was unhappy, and he was bullied by his peers. He was sexually abused by older boys. And dyslexia made it nearly impossible for him to learn without access to accommodations. So, you know, being the '50s He left school.
Em: He's going through it. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. So when Vernon was 20 years old, he sought guidance in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. But he was excommunicated because he was allegedly a bad influence on younger church members.
Em: He was telling them, heaven is real and can be achieved today.
Christine: How dare you. Umm, according to the Smithsonian, he was expelled actually for attempting to marry the pastor's daughter who was a minor at the time.
Em: Okay.
Christine: It was in 1981 that Vernon found a home in Waco, Texas, among the Branch Davidians. So this is kind of where we like... Where these two, hate to say it branches meet up because Vernon is born right around the time the Branch Davidians are formed as Vernon grows up. He's 20 years old now, and he discovers the Branch Davidians and joins their ranks because he's been kicked out of the Seventh Day Adventist.
Em: Of course.
Christine: So there in the Branch Davidians, he became a... He began a romantic and sexual relationship with the Branch Davidian's leader and prophet Lois Roden, who was several decades older than Vernon. And she supported Vernon as her inheritor and the future leader of the Branch Davidians.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So when Lois died, her son, George tried to claim her role, but Vernon was like, no, it's mine. She gave it to me. And so his followers, Vernon's followers, led a militia against George and shot him.
Em: What is the... Is this the royal family? This feels like the Lion King of like...
Christine: It's out of control. Like the son... Yeah, exactly. So yeah, use that analogy if, if it's easier folks to like picture it, but yeah. Basically. And so they...
Em: Okay. Imagine Scar saying, no Mufasa, this is, uh, this is my property that I'm... I'm the rightful heir, and that all the hyenas go after Mufasa.
Christine: I was screwing the mom lion. So, now I'm gonna shoot her Son. Yeah. I think it's probably not much like the Lion King, the more that I think about it, but, you know, it's fine. Umm, anyway, they shot George and his supporters, but George survived. And Vernon somehow escaped murder conviction when the trial ended with the hung jury. So he like was victorious basically, and took over this, this sect. He took control of Mount Carmel, he took control of the residents, and he changed his own name to David Koresh to signify his role as leader and prophet.
Em: David Koresh.
Christine: He's here.
Em: David Koresh. I see what's happening.
Christine: He's here.
Em: And he chose David For like Davidian, that was what was...
Christine: Correct.
Em: For King David.
Christine: Correct. Yes.
Em: Okay. I See.
Christine: Very, very good. The Branch Davidians who followed... I should, I think he should have been named Branch, but whatever, umm.
Em: If he really cared that much, he should have just kind of got... Ran with it.
Christine: He should've leaned into it, whatever, the Branch Davidians who followed David, because now his name's David, I guess, believed he was God's vessel on Earth. Like, they literally thought he was holy. He made... I mean, I don't wanna say... I don't wanna put victim blame on them, I'm just saying because he exuded this like confidence and changed his name to David and like took over... Usurped the throne, if you will. His followers literally thought that being near him was being face to face with God himself.
Em: Well, It sounds like this is a group of people who think that like... I mean, they're already following prophecies and things like that. So it, if everything is happening for a reason, for them.
Christine: It's like another puzzle piece. Exactly.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: It's like built into...
Em: It's all connected.
Christine: Exactly. And it's built into their belief system already. Exactly. It's not like a stretch. Right? So before long David Koresh preached that the Messiah was already here on Earth, and Oh, awkward. It was him. So weird. What are the odds?
Em: Yeah. No. I like, I... I'm sorry, I... I forgot to have my mind blown by anything he just said.
Christine: Oh My God. Imagine that Press conference.
Em: You Know what, I take back what I said earlier. You know what cult would get me when the cult leader actually says that somebody else is the prophet. That would blow my mind.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah.
Em: When someone else says, I'm actually not in charge here and I'm not the Messiah and don't worship me, that would suck me in. 'Cause I'd be like, that's the first I've ever heard of that.
Christine: I like how you just keep saying the opposite of a cult is what would suck you in.
Em: I know. Uh, I just one a group of friends. Maybe that's... Uh, I don't know.
Christine: Yeah. Okay. That's okay. I think... I think you'd get sucked into...
Em: Just about anything.
Christine: Yeah. Well, we'll talk about it later. Umm, anyway, so he says, you guys, I have the craziest thing to tell you. The Messiah's already on Earth. Can you believe that? And guess what?
Em: And Girl, he is in the mirror.
Christine: Oh, my God.
Em: Like, I can't stop looking at him.
Christine: He's looking right at him.
Em: Aaah.
Christine: And so yeah, that was a dramatic separation from the Seventh Day Adventist and Davidians, because that is not the kind of thing they were preaching. And David ended up marrying the daughter of one of his followers who was only 14. And I wanna be clear... And Sasha made a good comment on this too, uh, that the term marriage is in quotations because, you know, it implies legal consent. There's... There are phrases such as like forced marriage or child marriage. But you know, unfortunately, this was a legal marriage in Texas with Rachel's parents' consent. So this wasn't like illegal. It was technically legal, but she's still a child.
Em: Right.
Christine: Umm, so there's just a lot of like layers there. So David began separating families in order to sleep with the married women among his followers.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Em: So he just started taking the wives. And one Branch Davidian later said, in an interview, every single one of us was married to David. What have I?
Em: Geez. Okay. Was there anyone he wasn't attracted to? Damn.
Christine: Mm-mm. One woman left in the middle of the night because David told her she'd have to separate from her husband to be with David. And she ended up running away, and she left behind her young daughter, Heather Jones. And once her mother was gone, Heather was completely isolated from her family. David would not allow her to be near her father, and he physically abused her. He would strike her with a paddle. Just a... Just a bad man. And other, it... It sounds so dark and dystopian. Right. But then other women, because this is, you know, all cult, uh get... You know, cult behavior.
Em: Right.
Christine: Other women just wanted to be chosen by David. Right? They're like, oh no, he's God.
Em: Well, sure.
Christine: That's special. You know? And so...
Em: Well, even if someone doesn't treat you well, if he's the literal Messiah and your ticket into heaven, like of course you kind of...
Christine: You just go...
Em: Pander to him. Yeah.
Christine: You just think maybe you are wrong, you know, or you did something wrong.
Em: Right.
Christine: And so bible studies often went all night, and many women would stay up as late as they could, hoping that it would be their turn to have sex with David.
Em: Whoa.
Christine: That he would like, choose them that night, you know? And one woman said in an interview that when David invited her into his bedroom, she thought, I'm going to be for the first time with God alone through David. She...
Em: I mean, that's such a intoxicating...
Christine: It's... Yes.
Em: That I... I mean, part of me... Part of me wants to go like, yuck. But then the other part of me is like, I totally get it, if you're in that head space, that that's, I mean.
Christine: Exactly.
Em: There's nothing more... This is the most important moment your life will ever know. Like, it's...
Christine: I know. And, and everybody who's seen the vow or any of these, umm, docuseries, uh, about cults, hope... Hopefully knows that, you know, no one is immune to a cult. And even there's no, uh, victim shaming here on my part. I...
Em: No.
Christine: I find, uh, David to be just... Just sick in the head. I don't know. I don't... I'm sure there's a lot better words, some more, umm, more words that are apropos, but we'll just leave it. It's sick in the head.
Em: Yeah. I know. It's... I mean, it's... It's, umm, uh, we're not saying anything that everyone else who listens... Like everyone's probably on the same page as us.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But it's, uh... Yeah. It's... It's really twisted and sad to see from like a third person perspective. But I can also imagine being in that place where all you know is that this is like the most important thing you could possibly do. So like, of course you're gonna crave it, and then when it happens, you're gonna feel so blessed and like, so...
Christine: You feel special. Yeah.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Again, tale as old as time. This woman also said the whole time we were having sex, it was a Bible study. He did it for me, not for himself. She also defended David's marriage to a 14-year-old girl, uh, stating that they all believed that a child became an adult at 12 years old. So it was totally acceptable for David to have sex with, AKA rape, girls as young as 12 years old. The Branch Davidians truly believed that David was a messiah, and David had become the leader of a doomsday cult. So this is, as we kind of hinted up top, and by hinted, I mean very explicitly stated, a cult who anticipates and prepares for the appending impending apocalypse. So the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not believe in a metaphorical second coming of Christ according to their actual website, "The saviors coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When he returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die." So that's from their website.
Em: Okay, great.
Christine: David and the branch Davidians also believe that they would one day fight a literal Holy War like we were talking about for God. Umm, and David claimed it would be fought in Jerusalem. He and his devout followers. And this goes right against what you were just saying. I mean, not right against, right...
Em: Into.
Christine: Into what you were just saying. Exactly. He and his devout followers began stockpiling weapons to prepare for the day they would have to battle Satan and his armies.
Em: Well, It's 'cause they have to stay on earth. They don't get that thousand year bootcamp training that everyone...
Christine: Great point.
Em: Up in the sky gets. Yeah.
Christine: They also made money turning semi-automatic weapons into illegal automatic weapons, as well as concocting homemade grenades. So that's nice.
Em: Oh, Wow. I... I... I... I just envision at your Bible studies, some of us are flipping.
Christine: I know.
Em: The pages of the Bible and some of us are like putting tape on grenades. Like I just... I can't.
Christine: Just like mixing chemicals and shit. Yeah. It's just...
Em: Yeah. It's like Walter White at a Bible study. It's like... It's just.
Christine: Bad. It's Bad.
Em: Making, making bombs. Yeah.
Christine: In February of 1993, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, ATF, prepared to raid Mount Carmel following reports of child abuse, rape of children as young as 10 years old and illegal weapons stockpiling. The ATF believed that David Koresh kept all the weapons under lock and key. And so they planned to catch the Branch Davidians by surprise and secure and confiscate the weapons. So the morning of February 28th, 1993, a reporter for a local news station received a tip about the raid. So his team rushed to Mount Carmel to cover it as an exclusive story. One member of the crew got lost on his way and stopped and asked a mailman for the directions to Mount Carmel. The mailman asked why, and the crew member told him that the ATF was going to raid the compound today.
Em: We didn't have a singular conversation about keeping this under wraps?
Christine: Hush. Hush. Hey, guess what?
Em: Say... He no reason just trying to go over there. What happened?
Christine: The mailman was a Branch Davidian who lived at Mount Carmel.
Em: Mm-hmm. Yep. Well.
Christine: So he rushes home and he tips off David, uh, great, good job journalist. According to an undercover ATF agent who is living at Mount Carmel. Imagine.
Em: Bye.
Christine: Imagine you're what... You're living there undercover, and you see somebody come and tell him that the ATF is on the way.
Em: Honestly, thank God though, because that guy could at least like...
Christine: Play along.
Em: I'm... I mean, I don't think... I don't know if this is probably too far... Yeah. This is like before cell phones, but in today's world, it would've worked out really well. He could just like text like a... Like a threat level midnight.
Christine: Abort mission, abort mission.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so according to an undercover, ATF agent who was living at Mount Carmel, David heard this news from this mailman dropped his Bible and said, "The time has come."
Em: Oh, for god's sake. Okay.
Christine: I know it is actually.
Em: Well.
Christine: By the time 76 ATF agents... Oh yeah. You've gotta believe that one guy undercover was like, shit, shit, shit.
Em: They're coming.
Christine: Like, how do I get a fucking facts out real quick?
Em: Yeah. How do... Like, where's my white flag that I can wave and nobody else will see it?
Christine: Seriously. So by the time 76 ATF agents arrived at Mount Carmel, David had armed the Branch Davidians and prepared them to give their lives in the line of duty. So the ATF and the Branch Davidians disagree on which side shot first. But upon the ATFs arrival, all we know is a firefight broke out. The firefight lasted three hours of shooting.
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: Until the ATF negotiated a ceasefire with David so that both sides could safely collect their wounded and dead. Several Branch Davidians and four federal agents had been killed, and David had been shot. The ATF was forced to retreat, and the failed raid kicked off a 51-day armed standoff at Mount Carmel.
Em: Holy Shit.
Christine: Yeah. It's just bonkers. On February 29th, leap day, the...
Em: Hey girl.
Christine: Hey girl. You know what? If I were... That's what I would do if I were a fucking prophet I'd be like, it's gonna happen on leap day that way every few years, it's like, maybe...
Em: You get a break. Yeah.
Christine: And then it's like, no, not this year. You know.
Em: That's actually genius. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. You just like space it out a bit. Umm, so on February 29th, the hostage rescue team, HRT responded to the scene and began negotiations with David. David promised to release children in pairs. Remember, there are a lot of children living there too, being abused and, ugh. So David promised to release children in pairs if the media would play prerecorded messages on television that he made about his beliefs and his role as Messiah.
Em: What now? Oh my God. Did they do it?
Christine: So the FBI soon joined the ATF on scene, and the negotiator agreed to David's demand. They aired his recordings. And in the first few days of the standoff, 20 people were released from Mount Carmel, most of whom were children.
Em: Okay.
Christine: But the children's parents did not like this because they genuine... Genuinely believed David was releasing their children to Satan. Like they were like, "What are you doing?"
Em: Right. I mean... Well... They're like... They're literally here with us to be safe.
Christine: To be safe.
Em: From all these naysayers that we were told are going to one day come for us, and the first people you're relinquishing are our children. Yeah.
Christine: And by the way, the one day is now like, they're... He's like, the day has come, it's happening now. And he's like, anyway, you guys... I'll send the children back out into the fiery hellscape. Like of course they're not gonna like it.
Em: What it... And I don't think that was something that he planned, but what a... What an interesting side effect of the way that he has manipulated these people.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em: Where like, they weirdly... They think they're sacrificing themselves first by saying, let me go and leave my minor children with this sex abuser.
Christine: Precisely.
Em: Like, I don't, I... I can't imagine he thought it through that seamlessly to have that be the effect. But what an interesting twist where it...
Christine: Tactic. Yes.
Em: Weirdly worked out in his favor.
Christine: The strategy really turned into his favor. Yeah, 100%. And so yeah, they genuinely believed David was releasing their children to Satan and that their children could be killed. Uh, because these people outside were Satan's army. And now he's like letting these children go out to Satan's army. I mean, what are they thinking? And so as reassurance and encouragement to release more children, the FBI sent videos of the children playing together in the weeks after their release to just show the parents like, Hey, we're not hurting them. Like we're taking care of them. We're not Satan, like your children are safe.
Em: We're already indoctrinating them like the woke left. But, umm...
Christine: Yeah. Right. That maybe... That might happening.
Em: That they're physically safe.
Christine: But physically Satan hasn't arrived yet, so it's okay. Umm, and so they also coordinated phone calls between the children and their parents. And that kind of...
Em: Okay.
Christine: Like reassured, you know, a lot of people. On March 5th, so this would be five days later, David released 9-year-old Heather Jones.
Em: Okay.
Christine: She was the 23rd person and the 21st child to leave the Mount Carmel house. But she found no comfort among her rescuers. She said in an interview that she had a small bag full of her belongings, which was confiscated in case it had weapons or explosives. Like, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if...
Em: Right. Yeah.
Christine: I wouldn't trust him to not send children out with explosives at this point. Yeah.
Em: With guns and shit. Yeah.
Christine: So federal agents cut and tore apart her belongings in front of her while they laughed and made jokes about what they might find inside. And remember, she's already...
Em: Oh, no.
Christine: Her mom already ran away from this like terribly abusive situation. And so she's alone, she's been separated from her dad.
Em: And she's... And she's been getting abused herself. And now there's this... And now...
Christine: Yeah. And now she's like alone and confused and scared and she only knows this encampment and these...
Em: And her only belongings are getting ripped apart. Yeah.
Christine: And these scary grown men that everyone inside is calling Satan's army are suddenly, you know, tearing up her stuff.
Em: That's so scary.
Christine: And so she feels so terrified and utterly alone. And as the days turn to weeks, negotiations begin to completely break down because negotiators and the tactical teams are just like not working together to come up with the right strategies to get David on their side. And that's because the negotiators were focusing on deescalation and building trust with David and the Branch Davidians. Whereas the tactical teams were like, come on. Like, I mean, it's like... You see it play out on like Criminal Minds where they... Or SVU where like, "Let us in, like we're gonna... " And they're like, no, no. Like we can talk him out of this. You know.
Em: The way Olivia Benson has had to fight off hordes of cops who are just not interested in empathy.
Christine: I know. And so that's exactly...
Em: Amazing.
Christine: The, the kind of headbutting they're having here. And the tactical teams often undermine the negotiator's progress because they're trying to get somewhere slowly but surely. And the tactical team is like ready to fucking go in guns blazing. At one point they moved agents onto the property in armored vehicles without telling the negotiation team ahead of time. And so David was on the phone telling the negotiators to call off the agent's advance, and the negotiators were like, "What advance?" Like they didn't even know this was happening. That's how like discombobulated disconnected these two teams were.
Em: Yeah. The... The... I would argue one of the jobs that needs the most communication is a job like that.
Christine: I would say so, yes. And I think step one would be don't tell the mailman, maybe.
Em: Literally like ironically the best communication skills you can have is to not fucking say anything actually, is like...
Christine: Just shut the fuck up. Yes.
Em: Shut the fuck up.
Christine: Precisely.
Em: And then... And then yap away in the office where everyone has their little plans. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. Yap away in your fucking journal or something. Your live journal. Don't do it now, don't do it to the mailman. He could be one of them.
Em: Right. Go write a blog. Come on.
Christine: Go write a blog like a normal person. Jesus.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So when the negotiation team did convince David to release another adult from the house, the tactical team used their armored vehicles to drive over and crush the Branch Davidian's cars as like an instigation tactic to like get them riled up.
Em: Jesus Christ. Olivia Benson would absolutely not tolerate this. She would be like...
Christine: I mean, this is unacceptable.
Em: Are you fucking kidding? Like, all, all we want is for them to not think of us as Satan's play things and you're just destroying all their shit and like...
Christine: And you're just like marching in and fucking flattening it. Yeah.
Em: Yes. This is exactly what... This totally... Like, you have to think like what have they been told is going to happen? And then you're just proving them, right. Like, you're not gaining trust at all. It's so annoying.
Christine: I know they don't... I just... They don't care. They just wanna like overpower, you know? And so the cars were also riddled with bullets because the Branch Davidians had been, umm, shooting everywhere. So the team just destroyed the important evidence because that could have been used as like, oh, these bullets... You know, there's evidence here that the Branch Davidians were attacking us and no, they just drove over the cars for some fucking reason. So soon tanks arrived from Fort Hood, which is the most heavy duty armored vehicles the US military had at the time. And the negotiators felt that it was an unnecessary show of force that would only increase tensions. But of course, you know, they were willing to go ahead anyway because they wanted power over anything else.
Em: Of course.
Christine: However, the Branch Davidians did own weapons, also capable of puncturing armor vehicles and buildings. So some team members believed maybe they should have tanks because what if they have these automated guns that they can shoot through armor with, you know?
Em: Of course.
Christine: So it's kind of like a weird back and forth, like maybe the tanks are necessary, maybe they're just like aggressive show of power. I don't know. The tactical team began using sound tactics to torment the Branch Davidians. And by that I mean they would have these enormous speakers on which they would play music.
Em: Urgh.
Christine: The sound of rabbits being slaughtered.
Em: Yeah. Okay. I didn't... I didn't expect that, but I knew it was gonna be bad.
Christine: Hours.
Em: That's crazy.
Christine: Of a phone off the hook and beeping and Latin chants in reverse.
Em: So torture.
Christine: For days they did this.
Em: I mean that's like... I mean, I...
Christine: I mean, what the fucking fuck. Rabbit being... Where did they get this...
Em: Yeah. Where did they pull that file from.
Christine: Audio by the away. I don't... I don't like that. That they have that.
Em: Like you couldn't just do nails on a chalkboard, like, for a fucking day. Like...
Christine: Seriously, like a normal... What is wrong with these people?
Em: Yeah. That's, umm... I mean, that sounds like something Satan would do.
Christine: It sure does. No, you're so right. So negotiations...
Em: I would... I would think that's evil. I... And I'm not even in a fucking cult telling me that this is evil.
Christine: Exactly... I do find that pretty evil. So, yeah. And, you know, this is where negotiations were, and everyone was kind of like, what have we done? Like, this is a mess, right? So negotiations come to a halt. I feel like they... I feel like there was somebody in that group who was saying the whole time, Let's play rabbits being killed. Let's play rabbit... And everyone's like...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Shut up, weirdo. You're... Ron, stop it. And then like, three weeks In.
Em: And he's like, No, I've got... I've got the USB like right next... Like, I've got... I've got the thumb drive right here. Yeah.
Christine: I made yesterday. Don't worry. And then three weeks in, they're like, I don't know, play Ron's tape. Let's see what happens. Like, it just feels like they're just fucking giving up, like doing like the weirdest, dumbest tactics now.
Em: Yeah.
Em: And so negotiations come to a screeching halt, and the scene around Mount Carmel is just like, so, so bleak. Umm, there's... There's gun ownership activists there. There's neo-Nazis, other sympathizers with the Davidians began gathering at the perimeter to support the Branch Davidians. Hundreds of members of the press are like interviewing worried parents because their adult children were among the members inside the house, so that now there's families whose kids are in the house, not children, but you know, their adult children are in this, on this property. And they're like, please don't shoot my family. You know? And so it's just all really messy.
Christine: Umm, and as a result of this, I guess understandably, David refused to work with the negotiators anymore because he believed they had no true authority. And guess what? He was right. Because it seems like the tactical team was able to overpower the negotiators every time. Umm, on March 25th, the lead negotiator was told he had to report elsewhere and was removed from the scene and was never replaced. So negotiating just stopped, even though it had been working. Like he had let quite a few...
Em: That's wild.
Christine: People free. Children. I mean, I'm glad they at least let the children out before all this nonsense broke out.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: But still... So the agents shocked everyone when they agreed to allow a third party to enter the house. And this was a defense lawyer that David's mother had hired and sent to the scene to speak to her son. She's like, "I got my son a lawyer. He's coming by. Can he go inside?" And the FBI was like, sure.
Em: That's... I mean, I guess they... In their mind they're like, we've tried everything else. But also I... Doesn't it feel like the first rule of a hostage negotiation is like, don't bring civilians into the hostage situation?
Christine: Yeah, but remember they said, nevermind hostage negotiators...
Em: Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Christine: Go home. We're not doing that anymore. It's fucking like... Uh, what do you call it? Umm...
Em: The, the red tape is gone. They're finally just...
Christine: We've gone rogue, like we're just fucking balls to the wall here. And so the FBI was like, okay, well maybe we can reason with David and everyone else if like, we let this guy in and he has his lawyer there and they have this advocate. And so David told his lawyer that he needed more time to write a new version of the Book of Revelations.
Em: I'm sorry. He like... Just one day. Can you imagine? Like, that's some ADHD shit too. It is like, oh.
Christine: I know.
Em: I only need like...
Christine: I'll get it done by tonight. I swear to God.
Em: It's like, by the time the sun has risen, the book of Revelations will have been rewritten.
Christine: [laughter] Oh, my God. It's so fucking sick. I mean, that's like when Renee... When I remember that Renee is an attorney, and I'm like, I'm gonna tell her that I'm gonna write the Book of Revelations just to say I told a lawyer that I'm gonna write the book of Revelations. Umm...
Em: Also like, is he... So he's gonna... What, what needs to be changed and that... He doesn't already like, and by the way, this is...
Christine: Oh, don't worry. He'll tell you. But go ahead.
Em: Well, I'm just thinking like, if you are the Messiah from a book that has already been written for you to rewrite, it implies that nothing in the book before you even got there should be taken seriously. So you must not be the Messiah. Okay. So I just wanna make sure that we're all on the same page here. Okay.
Christine: Yeah. I mean, but think about Joseph Smith and like how, you know, the angel came down and was like, oh, here's a whole new book. It's not like the old book and you are the star. It's like... It's just... It's like they don't even use the logic of... You know.
Em: We might as well... We might as well write a book of Revel... At least one person would follow our book of Revelations if we said, uh, oh, it's time to rewrite it.
Christine: Oh my gosh. Let's do it. I'm gonna rewrite it. Okay. Umm...
Em: Okay.
Christine: So, we'll... This is not my version to be clear. This is David's version, his version outline the end of the world, the Rapture and David's important role in it.
Em: He's like, important role...
Christine: Basically what he was was saying is, I had to write myself into the Bible. I wasn't in it first. Now I wanna be in it.
Em: I feel Like he probably actually didn't touch... Especially 'cause he only had like five hours before the sun was gonna rise. He was probably like, I actually don't need to put anything. I don't need to edit anything except I'm am going to write my name in there a couple times. It just says...
Christine: Yeah, just like put a carrot...
Em: David is the best.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, lie less. David. By the end of the night, he's just writing yearbook quotes. But he... He literally probably put a little carrot and wrote like the prophet David, but... David Koresh.
Em: Right, right, right.
Christine: Because he promised everybody that as soon as he finished writing, don't even worry, the standoff will end. But David had already made similar promises in previous weeks that he would release everyone when... So some event would happen. And he had never honored this promise. Uh, even when they did meet his demands. And so they were like, we don't really believe you. And there was... I Know.
Em: Some people are starting to doubt it. At least.
Christine: They're starting to doubt that he... No, sorry. The FBI is like we are...
Em: Oh, oh, oh, okay.
Christine: We don't believe that as soon as you finish writing the Book of Revelation, you're gonna let everybody go. Like we just don't believe it.
Em: But also it does... Again, speaking about ADHD, this sounds like what people who are dating someone with ADHD has to deal with, where it's like, can you just do the laundry. It's like, I have to read the book of Revelations first, and then I promise I'll do the laundry.
Christine: I swear to God. And then the next day you go into the laundry room and you're like, what are these? Oh, I bought like, brand new washer dryer. They are... They work on, like, I'm... I'm a cyclist now, and they work on like solar power where I like churn my legs. I mean, I feel like it's just so outta control. He's like, oh well, just one more thing.
Em: It's like, and also, I forgot to write the Book of Revelations.
Christine: Oh yeah. Also, that's not happening anymore. Keep up. Yeah.
Em: I changed my mind. I actually, I got... I got really invested in something else. So now the laundry and the Book of Revelations are not done. But don't worry, this... This is crucial.
Christine: Yeah. I got really invested in, in, in hand washing my laundry. Do you know how many toxins are in Tide detergent? It's like...
Em: Oh, my God.
Christine: Okay, Christine, you need to get off the internet. Umm.
Em: If, if... If you have ADHD and your... Your, uh, dating, somebody please just go give them a hug, because they go through the regular all the time.
Christine: They probably deserve it. Okay, hold on. I'll be right back.
Em: They probably deserve... Yeah.
Christine: I'll do it later. I'll do it later. Yeah. Umm, there was...
Em: Except you'll forget. It's okay.
Christine: Except I totally won't. I'll probably learn how to hand wash my laundry later and then do two things and leave them stopping wet on the floor. That's usually what happens. And I'm like, oh, I didn't have time to dry them. It's like, okay, now they're moldy. [laughter] Umm, anyway, so it's not a personal story and I don't know it from my own experience.
Em: You learned about it in the Book of Revelations you wrote last night.
Christine: That's right. Uh, yeah. Why don't we just transcribe this episode and make it the Book of Revelations. Umm, so of course the, the FBI were like, I don't know if we believe you. And there's this enormous pressure on the FBI at this point to end the siege. I mean, of course. And so on April 19th, 51 days into the standoff, they finally received permission from the Attorney General to use force.
Em: Right.
Christine: They called David on the phone. They informed him that they were approaching the house to deploy tear gas. They repeatedly stated, "This is not an assault." And instructed David and the other adults inside, not to raise their weapons. The plan was to release tear gas in a slow and steady stream into the house to force everyone to evacuate. So David hung up the phone and he handed out gas masks.
Em: Love that he had that on, on site, which like, he's...
Christine: Of course.
Em: Got this little bunker.
Christine: Of course. And also, how creepy is it now that they're all wearing gas masks? So the agents had information that led them to believe there was a bunker inside the house where the Branch Davidians could avoid the tear gas. So they began repeatedly ramming one of the military tanks into the side of the house, basically just destroying the building to get access to the inside. In an interview, one of the people inside said that the scene was utter chaos, and they were sure they were about to be killed. I mean, tanks are like...
Em: I mean... Yeah.
Christine: Ramming into the building at this point.
Em: Yeah. I mean, you're... You can't see because you're in a mask and there's gas everywhere. And cars are coming at you. I mean, there's... There's no way you don't die. That's how my brain would operate.
Christine: Yeah. I would be in, in total panic mode. And then, Hey, what's that? A fire. A fire breaks out, it starts suddenly, it spreads quickly and it engulfs the entire house.
Em: Holy shit.
Christine: So as it is engulfing the house, federal agents, news crews, civilian onlookers family members waited for the remaining Branch Davidians to flee. So over loudspeakers, the FBI instructed everyone to exit the burning building with their hands in the air, promising that they would be escorted to safety. But inside some mothers followed orders to move children deeper inside the house's bunker because they thought they would be safe.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: It's horrible.
Em: Did they ended up...
Christine: It's horrible.
Em: Did they end up burying them alive?
Christine: So they covered themselves and their children in wet blankets and others who tried to escape were blocked by debris caused by the tank that had rammed into the side of the wall, the building. And at the group home where the released children were being housed, a care worker turned on the news. And so all the children watched as their home and their families that are inside are burning to the ground. It's just all so fucking bad.
Em: And all at the same time too. It's like, are... Obviously, I'm not saying like, do you think they were scared? Obviously they were scared, but do you... Do you think like in some way, like this is exactly like... Especially the kids who are... Are probably born and raised in this, in this... In this world... This is exactly what they've been prepared for their entire lives. So this is... This is only, I guess, confirming everything that they were told. Like it's...
Christine: I think it... I think it is up until God is supposed to win this, not Satan.
Em: Oh, right.
Christine: And we're losing.
Em: Right. That's a great point too. I... I was gonna say like obviously...
Christine: Like, we're supposed to walk on their bones, not the other way around, you know?
Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder if that shattered any, umm... If that disillusioned anybody when they were like, hang on a second. Like, we're not winning, like you said, we would.
Christine: I know. I...
Em: And we have the Messiah on our... On our side.
Christine: I don't even if they had time. I mean, the fact that they even went deeper into the building shows, they were still like listening to their leader, you know? And so it's just horrible. One worker at the home where the children were watching this on the news said, "Oh, well, your parents must not love you enough to have escaped a fire to be with you." Hello.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Go to jail. Go to hell.
Em: That's absolutely, absolutely brutal. Holy shit.
Christine: Fire trucks were not allowed to approach the scene because there were these safety concerns over exploding ammunition. And so nothing could be done. They just watched in horror, as the house burned down, only nine people escaped. And when the siege on Mount Carmel was finally done, 83 branch Davidians were dead, including 28 children just burned to death. It's horrible. When the siege on Mount...
Em: And nine people survived.
Christine: Nine people escaped the blaze. Yeah.
Em: Wow. So there's not...
Christine: And that is in addition to the children that had been released before, you know, and some of the adults.
Em: I... I would be... Maybe you're gonna talk about this later, I would be... I would be very curious what those nine people have to say after the fact, and if any of them broke free and after that moment. But also the fact that there's over 80 people whose stories I would've also been interested to hear after this.
Christine: I know.
Em: That we just never get to know.
Christine: I know. And the children that didn't even have a chance, they were born into this, they never...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: It just... It like breaks my heart. So over three decades later, the fire at Mount Carmel remains a topic of bitter debate and tremendous grief. The FBI's released recordings, which... Oh, my stomach turns. The FBI's released recordings from within the house in which members of the Branch Davidians discuss spreading fuel in strategic places hours before the fire started.
Em: Oh. Okay.
Christine: So, they were planting some gasoline. Aerial footage of the incident shows three large fires starting simultaneously in three distinct parts of the house. So if you think about this, investigators ruled that the fire was started deliberately by David and several of his most loyal followers. And for them...
Em: Right.
Christine: For him then to say, okay, now take your children and follow me. It's like, you...
Em: He was...
Christine: Bastard.
Em: Well... Well, that's what I was gonna ask too, which I... This might be... After that last sentence, maybe not. I was gonna say, this feels like too complex of a question. But do you think he was kind of doing what I think a lot of cult leaders do when they realize like they're about to get busted is like, just fucking...
Christine: Just end it.
Em: End everything. Like, do you think that was his plan and he was telling everybody, oh, this is for our protection, but really he was already sizing up the amount of trouble he was in and realizing...
Christine: I mean Em, it really tracks, it really tracks with... With Jim Jones. It tracks with all sorts of cults. You know, uh, just like, okay, time has come. They're closing in, let's all die. It's like, it tracks. Some of the survivors. Because you mentioned like... Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Em: No, I was gonna say that that's... That then confirms our whole question from the beginning of like, did he really believe this or not? Because he must have known on some level that he...
Christine: Well I don't know, because maybe he believed that they were going to heaven, and God would say... You know, it's like...
Em: Right, right, right. Yeah. You're right.
Christine: It's like maybe he believed it, maybe he didn't. It's like there's no way to know. Was he so screwed up that he was like, had talked himself into believing it and maybe he was like, oh no, this is just God's plan. Or was he like, well, fuck, they're onto me so everyone's gonna die.
Em: Also, it's... It's very curious about like, in the mind of a cult leader. It's like, if you've already decided you're the Messiah and everyone else believes it around you, and therefore you believe it, and why wouldn't you wanna believe it? 'Cause you've got this ego and you're... You're hoping you're right. Then that means any thought you have could have been ordained by God. And so therefore...
Christine: Exactly.
Em: Any thought you're having is absolutely right. So if your thought is now kill everyone...
Christine: I mean, it's the confirmation bias you mentioned. Yeah.
Em: Yeah, yeah. I mean, anything you do...
Christine: It's like well, if this is the plan it's God's plan. I'm...
Em: Is... Is prophesied. Yeah. Anything you do or think is told by God.
Christine: He's like, I'm in the fucking Book of Revelation. What more do you want? You know.
Em: As he still has like ink on his hand from writing it down down himself.
Christine: Yeah. Right. I know. He's still like, just putting highlighter in the fucking Bible. And so, some of the survivors, I know you mentioned like curious what the survivors, you know, had to say.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Some of the survivors insisted the fire was caused by their open flame kerosene lanterns igniting the tear gas that the FBI released into the building.
Em: Okay.
Christine: And so there's kind of this disagreement between some of the survivors, umm, and the kind of official ruling. The tragedy spurred outrage among right wing groups. Umm, Timon... Timothy McVeigh, an army veteran who drove to Mount Carmel and sold pro-gun merchandise during the siege, would later, uh, as we probably know, kill 168 people in Oklahoma City with a homemade bomb, on the two year anniversary of the Mount Carmel fire. So this has had incredibly long lasting consequences. Regardless of how the fire started, the Attorney general serving at the time of the Waco Siege, along with agents involved in the siege later admitted to regretting how it was handled. Well, that's big of you, I guess.
Christine: It's considered by many to have been an avoidable tragedy, largely caused by a total communication failure between federal agencies. And I'm pretty sure that this is one of the main reasons this plot device is used so often in prime shows. Like I... I... I...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Really do, because it's one of the biggest, most obvious examples of shit we could have really handled this better if we had slowed down and not fucking overpowered everyone. However, other people of course, and rightfully so believe that David Koresh is the one responsible. And for that, I say, or to that, I say also true.
Em: Yeah. Fair enough.
Christine: Two things can be true, I suppose. So today the Branch Davidian website insists that the religious movement is in no way associated with David Koresh or his actions. But, uh, beyond that, I don't really know what they're up to. So that is the story of the Branch Davidians and the siege of Mount Carmel.
Em: I'm so glad you covered it because I've always heard the name David Koresh, never knew a single thing.
Christine: That's what I meant. I had always heard it too. And I was like, I sort of know. And then I was like, eh, I don't know who that is. Sounds boring. Just some guy.
Em: Yeah. I never had any, umm... I knew he was like a, a cult leader that was kind of as far as it got. And I... I had no idea he was connected to the history of the Seventh Day Adventist. I... I, in, in my mind, I think I thought he was also maybe a serial killer. 'Cause I really had never looked into him at all. And I... I knew he was in the true crime arena. I just didn't know what... What that was about. So, umm, good, uh, 101, uh, history lesson there. That was... Thank you.
Christine: Yeah, of course. And, uh, if you guys want to hear, you know, more in depth, I don't... I think I'm pretty sure it's more in depth. I'm trying to remember if it was one of their multi parters, but, umm, Sinisterhood did a very good job covering this as well. And of course, umm, Heather always has like the legal legalese to, you know, back... Back up claims and facts...
Em: Sure.
Christine: And stuff like that. So definitely recommend that. But yeah, that is... Uh, that's the story. It's really, uh, a fucked up surprise.
Em: Yeah. Well, when it's not, I have something to worry about, I guess. Umm...
Christine: I'm back to my beverage.
Em: Are you... I'm apparently hearing a lawnmower or something. Do you hear that? No.
Christine: I do.
Em: I don't know who that is, but now I know that on Thursdays at 1:00 there's a lawnmower. Great. Umm, I...
Christine: It's always Thursdays.
Em: Hmm.
Christine: It's always Thursdays.
Em: It's always Thursdays, isn't it? That's so weird. I wonder why. Umm, well, sorry. It's so loud. I guess that's our cue that we should leave, huh?
Christine: Yeah, I guess we'll go to yappy hour 'cause, uh, it's time to talk about something else. I don't know what to talk about. Umm, I guess I could tell more about my ghost stories in the house.
Em: I would love to. Actually if you could, umm, do a closeup again of the, the hieroglyphics 'cause...
Christine: Yes, let's... Let's look at the creepy printout. That's a great idea.
Em: Decipher it. Decipher it.
Christine: Yes, Yes, yes. Let's do that. Okay.
Em: All right. Well, before the lawnmower gets over here again, thank you everybody. I hope you drank some water today. I hope you took your medication. I hope that you bought tickets to our live show. And I hope that you, uh.
Christine: It's equally important as taking your medication. It's called Habit Stacking.
Em: And I hope you, uh, pre-ordered our book because it comes out at the end of this month. So, umm, thank you everyone, and we'll... I'll see you next week when we are... I think it will be either.
Christine: Stop. Stop.
Em: It will either be our last stressed out episode or our first really fucking relieved episode. And the day we're really relieved you're gonna hear about it, so don't worry. Umm, I'm so... I like, I... I know that we're stressed, Christine, but I am so excited about how... I'm so excited about the, the sigh of relief that it... Like, is really pushing me to get through this.
Christine: I think that I need to get past page one and then I'll be more excited for the relief, but... I feel...
Em: Totally understand.
Christine: Like there's no end in sight 'cause of my own doings and actions.
Em: Been there. Umm, and.
Christine: That's.
Em: Why.
Christine: We.
Em: Drink.
