[intro music]
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Lesgo, girls.
Em Schulz: I like the les, not the let's.
Christine Schiefer: Let's go girls.
Em Schulz: Nice touch.
Christine Schiefer: It's a big day!
Em Schulz: We... We just came back last night at the wee hours.
Christine Schiefer: Last night, this morning.
Em Schulz: This morning from Vegas, uhh because we have been in cahoots with...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: With Eva's partner, Rachel, and we and many of Eva's friends all surprised them because...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Clink, clink, clink. I've passed the baton. And by the baton, I mean the clinky ring, Eva is officially engaged, and we didn't even let her on this recording 'cause we wanted to start, so we said, "Don't worry about joining," and then I was like, "oh, I guess I'm just gonna talk about Eva now that she's not here." But she's engaged! And we're so happy they're engayged.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And Em and I both came up with that fun pun separately, and then uh...
Em Schulz: And nobody else ever has.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody cared, but we thought...
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: It was absolutely splendid.
Em Schulz: Uhh yeah. So Eva and and Rachel are now engaged, and uh the most fun for me was that Rachel uh arranged us to all also go see Shania and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And umm wow, 5-year-old me couldn't have been more excited and the fact that it was about something... It was to celebrate something queer was just extra beautiful. Umm I'm trying to figure out the glare. Sorry about that, but no, it was, it was very lovely. I had a good time. I hadn't seen Christine in a while. Uhh, we saw...
Christine Schiefer: Uhh hence, lesgo girls. Get it girls? Get it? Get it?
Em Schulz: Lesgo girls. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Shania.
Em Schulz: In case it dropped. Shania, are you there? Umm I had a great time, it was very fun to see the umm, the dichotomy of people at this in this group going to Shania because half the people really cared and half people did not know and really any Shania's song.
Christine Schiefer: I, I knew that one. I know brrm, brmm, but okay can we talk about... My favorite part was that we were in... We literally, Eva's not here and we're like, "Let's talk about all the fun things we did with Eva this weekend." We were like setting up in the room and we were gonna hide, but then we were in this casino and it takes forever to find the actual like rooms we were saying, and so we kept following like Eva's dot around on Find My Friends, and we were like, "Oh no, they're going the wrong way." So finally we're like, "Okay, it looks like they're, they're here, everybody go into your hiding spot." And I had to remote 'cause I was gonna start playing Shania as soon as she walked in, by the way, I'm one of the... I said that already. I'm one of those people who kinda clueless about Shania, but I did have a great time, um but so they're like, "Christine, start the music," and it's like brmm brmm baner-ner, and then I hear like 10 seconds later, all right, start over, cancel the music, every-everything off. And I'm like, "Okay, they got on the wrong floor".
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, "Oh, my they got off on the wrong floor".
Em Schulz: And it, and it's just a bunch of whispers from different corners, like I was hiding in a closet, Christine was hiding in the bathroom. Someone was hiding behind...
Christine Schiefer: Behind the curtains.
Em Schulz: The couch, someone behind the curtains, you could just hear each of us whispering like "She's not here yet, play it again, play it again".
Christine Schiefer: I just kept hearing "Christine, Chris... And, and my phone was filming, so I was like, I can't even see my phone, and so I was just sitting there with a remote and champagne, and I just kept hitting brmm brmm and it started over like four times, and then finally they came in and it was so exciting. And Em put it the best, they were like, oh, and then, then she'll turn around and Em and Christine here, and Em was like, "Yeah, yeah, your bosses have arrived to celebrate". It's like ugh maybe not.
Em Schulz: Like we're, we're aware uh but it was nice to be included. Um.
Christine Schiefer: It was, I was so honored. Um It was fun. Oh, I'm wearing my Hot Stuff shirt uh in in honor of the weekend.
Em Schulz: Uh. Yes. Well, uh and also Eva and uh Rachel, had like matching Chappell Roan hand-made hats. It was very lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're friend Ellen made them, it was just like so happy and gay and beautiful, and I loved it, um and I won 320 bucks at at the slot machine in in one go, I was like damn... It was those exploding pigs that I loved so much.
Em Schulz: I had beef Wellington. That was... I mean...
Christine Schiefer: That's right I also watch... I think I watched Em watch and I experienced Em experiencing so many things. That was like just second-hand joy for me, like I watched you...
Em Schulz: It was fun wasn't it?
Christine Schiefer: Experience, Shania, and it was like I was channeling your joy. It was just delightful.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so I've always wanted to see Shania, like it's one of the only... I don't... I'm not a concert goer, Shania is one of the concerts I've ever wanted to see, and it's one... She's one of the only artist I know every word of every song to, um so I... That was like off of a bucket list and then I've always wanted to try beef Wellington and the restaurant we had reservations at had beef Wellington, so I had a great weekend, whether or not Eva said, yes, I was gonna have a good time. So...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Em was committed, I was like, Eva was like, "How did, how did Ray convince you to come?" I was like, "I needed no convincing." And Em was like, "I did, but the Shania and the beef Wellington helped." I was like yeah...
Em Schulz: That really, that really did it.
Christine Schiefer: We dragged Em out.
Em Schulz: Uh yeah. Even if uh it didn't all work, I was gonna go to Vegas no matter what. Um and also uh... Yeah, it was a good time. I went to Meow Wolf we did a bunch of fun stuff. So um anyway, congratulations to Eva...
Christine Schiefer: I know we're so happy and I wish that we had invited her into the recording to clink her glass, but we didn't, so oops.
Em Schulz: As we were saying this, Eva texted and said, "Oh, I can, I can hop on now", and I said "No". So uh we had different opinions. You wanted to invite her on.
Christine Schiefer: Oops. I did.
Em Schulz: I said... Yeah, and I said, "No, we're already recording and talking about you," so...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, yeah, sorry don't join.
Em Schulz: You can relax.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah just know that it's all good vibes that we're talking about you, but um I... If if the case you're wondering, I'm drinking today, a half, half uh the Rhinegeist local brewery, Geist Tea... It's like a hard craft tea half and half, and uh I needed something caffeinated today because uh hmm... Well, I got on a plane, I missed brunch 'cause I had to get on an early flight, not super early, but you know early enough, and then uh we sat on the tarmac for about an hour and 15 minutes and... Which it sucks when like the flight's delayed, but you're on the plane and it's like your trapped.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's also hot 'cause they're turning off the engine to like...
Christine Schiefer: It's super hot. There's babies who are getting stressed.
Em Schulz: It's like, it's like 100, 105 degrees in in...
Christine Schiefer: It was 105 degrees in Vegas. And they were like, "Oh, any minute now." You know. And then, like of course, you don't wanna get up to pee 'cause it's like, oh well, what like if we're about to go... 'cause like we're kind of moving every now and then, anyway, point being, I missed my connecting flight in from Chicago home, and I said, "Oh, I'm sure there's plenty of flights", and Blaise said "Nope, that's the last one."
Christine Schiefer: And I landed as it said, taking off and I went "cool cool, cool. They saved the other flights not mine."
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So I spent four hours on the plane, like I bought the internet so I could just try and find a way home, because today was Leona's first day a school, and I really wanted to be here.
Em Schulz: Yeah no I get that.
Christine Schiefer: I like really wanted to be here and I did not wanna spend the night in like a hotel in Chicago at like some airport by myself, feeling sad, and there was no early flight anyway, the flight would have gotten me in this afternoon and I would have missed recording. So I was like, forget it. So I almost rented a car and drove like the five hours and then I was like, no, then I'll get home at like 3:00 AM, my mom... Okay, then I found a flight, I had to buy a flight, there was one seat left. I had to buy the flight from...
Christine Schiefer: Chicago, from Midway to Columbus, and then that was delayed almost an hour, so then... But anyway, I landed around midnight and my mom had to drive two hours to come get me and then drive me two hours home and then go home, and then uh... Anyway, it was just one of those days where I got in at like 2:30, 3:00 and I was like uh... And I just started brushing my teeth, I was like, I think I just need need to force a routine, so I just like started brushing my teeth and like went to bed and read a book. And then...
Em Schulz: Just disassociating while your teeth are scrubbed.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. Anyway, so then finally, after like five days, I showered today. Leona got off to school. I needed some caffeine, so I'm drinking this 'cause I really didn't sleep very much and um... Oh, also, sorry, you tell me why you drink 'cause... Can I tell you why I drink? Well, that's why I drink.
Em Schulz: Literally all I do is talk. It's finally your turn. Go for it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay well one of the reasons I drink is 'cause of we're having ghost activity at the house.
Em Schulz: "Gasp".
Christine Schiefer: And like I'm not even like I'm not... This is, this is not a uh... It's, it's... What, what's the code red? We're not at a, we're not at a fire drill, we're at a fire. Um.
Em Schulz: Oh, really it's threat level midnight.
Christine Schiefer: Threat level midnight, weird shit is happening, and uh this morning Blaise said to me, "Yeah, I mean I finally believe you now," and I went oh...
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh. That's not good, that's not good.
Christine Schiefer: No. And he didn't even say it like, Oh yeah, 'cause he said, he's always said like, "Oh, I'm sure like there's some... "
Em Schulz: Mr. Level head.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like he's always like pragmatic. Like "I'm sure there's some truth to it, and like you're probably right, there's some things we don't... " Today, he was like, "something's happening". And I was like, "Ah, I got him".
Em Schulz: I hate when they finally agree with us, I get... I hate when they don't agree with us, and then when they agree with us I go I actually hate this more.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah it's worse, it's worse. Go back to being the level headed one please.
Em Schulz: So what... Why... Like first of all, what's going on? Second of all, what's the thing that like made him...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Okay, so when we first moved in, some weird stuff happened and it was like stuff that over the years, I've written off, but I've started remembering now, and I know I talked about them like years ago when we moved in...
Em Schulz: It's like trauma. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know right, I'm like just buried it, but it's it's fun 'cause I'm looking through my old trauma and then every now and then there's like a ghost story and I'm like, "Oh fun, that's a little better than one of these other traumas I'm digging up."
Em Schulz: It's like when you find candy in your purse. You're like "oh my God."
Christine Schiefer: Actually you're looking for like a tampon and you're like, "Oh, a peppermint." You know it's like, oh, something more exciting. Um. Yeah, so I... That hits me oh a peppermint. Like wow, how old am I?
Em Schulz: Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: A Werther, Werther's Original. Yum. Um.
Em Schulz: Yuck a butterscotch with hair on it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'll eat... That's perfectly good. Don't waste food.
Em Schulz: Yeah you just, you just peel it off. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You just rinse it under the sink, it's fine. Um. Anyway, so I when we first moved in, like some weird stuff happened where once we were standing and I'd put up a little thing in the bathroom shelf upstairs in like the guest bathroom, but we never used and it was like a little guestbook, and it says, like a guestbook to use on the potty, like if you're visiting...
Em Schulz: I'm the only one who's ever signed it.
Christine Schiefer: You're the only one who's ever signed it, and so it was sitting up there and I like propped it up and I was like, okay, and it sat, sat there for probably weeks, months, and then we're sitting downstairs talking about like I mentioned something about, "Oh, I'm so excited for our first guest to come stay," and and all of a sudden we just heard this crash. And I...
Em Schulz: Shut up.
Christine Schiefer: Went upstairs and like the the stupid book had been like launched over the toilet and like acr... And like across the bathroom, and I was like, oh, no, and I turn it over it says like guestbook, and I was like, uh-oh, so that happened and then...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And this was years ago, and then uh the time I was sitting there and Leona's grandparent, my in-laws were home and they were all like out with her, and I just heard somebody go, "Daddy", like right in front of me, and I was like...
Em Schulz: I remember that. Yep.
Christine Schiefer: And Gio like jumped up, that was freaky. And at the time, I was like, "Maybe it's just the way the walls are." No, that's nothing like the sound.
Em Schulz: I remember... Can you hear that voice still in your head? Because I remember claiming it was Future Leona in a glitch.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. You know I know, sometimes I think about that and I'm like, it just sounded like a little kid... Like I don't, I don't think I, I know it enough to be...
Em Schulz: Damn. 'cause it could, it could be now, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I, I, I do wonder that. Yeah, I feel like one day maybe I'll be sitting in that exact spot and then maybe she'll say it and Gio will we'll go like this and I'll go, "Oh my God, it's happened again like deja vu...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It'll, it'll hit something right and you'll... It'll hit something right and you'll know it was the moment.
Christine Schiefer: That could, that could very well be it. 'cause it didn't feel threatening. It was just like so alarming 'cause she couldn't talk yet, she was like two months old.
Em Schulz: Right, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Um. And then so recently, so things have kind of... And then Blaise called me that one time saying someone's in the house and the cats were in bed with him, and so we just like weird footsteps and stuff, but nothing crazy, and then I recently started noticing, noticing more like of those weird like someone's watching me chills where they kinda go up your scalp. And I was like, okay, I keep like turning around and there's no one there, and then you and I... Which no spoilers, but for the show, Em and I go with Eva to uh some haunted locales, that's how we prep for the live show because we film it, show the footage. So after we went to um one of the locales, I feel like something either came back or...
Em Schulz: Don't you say that.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Or... But because it's a totally different energy. It's like trickster. So...
Em Schulz: "Gasp".
Christine Schiefer: I know, and this has never happened to me for since I was little and my retainer went missing and all that other weird shit with Mr. Chatfield, but I have had... And you know that I lose shit all the time, right, my social security card's on the floor, I... It takes a lot for me to be convinced like I'm not losing stuff, it's disappearing. I have had... Okay, I've had so many things just vanish like from the most benign spots. Like I have a a sleep mask. Where the fuck am I gonna lose that? It's in my house, I don't like take it out of the house with me.
Em Schulz: Right? Under your bed at best.
Christine Schiefer: Under my bed at best. I scoured this place, looking for that thing. It just disappeared one day and I was like, "What the fuck?" Could not find it. So I was like, you know what, I bought a new one. 'cause it was like two months later, and I said, "I give up", I bought a new one.
Christine Schiefer: I, I said, I got home from one of our ghost hunts and Blaise said to me, "Hey, did you move my hat to like my um the mantle up here in our room?" And I was like, "No". And I just, I was like, "Oh my God, here we go. It's happening?" And he goes, "No, I'm serious that I'm really wigged out right now, I'm really freaked out." Apparently, he had had a hat specifically like hanging downstairs on a hook, whatever, and he's... You know he's himself. He goes, "This thing moved to a spot I would never have put it. It does not go there."
Christine Schiefer: "It's never been there. It's too tall for Leona." It's in a very random, very specific spot. And I went, "Oh, well, maybe you forgot, I don't know". And he goes, "No, no, no. Something's going on". So then I said out loud, "okay, well, if you're gonna return or like move Blaise's hat around, can you bring my eye mask back?" Literally the next morning, Blaise goes, "Christine, I just found your eye mask, it was like upstairs in your office," and I went...
Em Schulz: Dude.
Christine Schiefer: I... Like I said, "where" and he said, "like over in that corner." I said "I... "
Em Schulz: Well, you know you have to go look through your cameras now and see when it appeared.
Christine Schiefer: I... In which camera?
Em Schulz: Oh, you don't have a camera in there? Shit.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, not like a security camera. I have this camera. That's about it.
Em Schulz: Bummer. Well, maybe now you should get one.
Christine Schiefer: I should. And then I was like, "I looked there a million fucking times." So then a-almost like playing along. I was like, "okay, all right. So you finally returned my eye mask after I spent money to buy a new one. Fine." So then I said out loud, in front of Blaise again, I was like, "all right, well I've been missing an AirPod that I set... " I, I swear to God, this one I know I set down on like, uh, somewhere I think my bathroom counter. And I went about my day and I thought, okay, maybe like, and it disappeared. And I thought, well, maybe I went right back for it. Gone. And I thought it's an AirPod. Like maybe Moonshine knocked it off. Maybe they vacuumed it up. Somebody vacuumed it up. I don't know. I just gave up. I ordered a fucking new one. So I said out loud, "okay, fine. If you find my AirPod, please let me know." And then I went to Vegas. I got back last night at like 2:00 AM and I put everything down and I'm like brushing my teeth, like I said, kind of like zombie, like, and I glanced down and literally sitting right in front of me on the counter where I had left it a million years ago is my AirPod. And I was like, I wiped those counters down like looking for that thing. I was like, I cleared the counters. We've had, we've had cleaners come in since then.
Em Schulz: And Blaise didn't put it there.
Em Schulz: No. And then this morning I said, "did you find my AirPod?" And he goes, no, I told you I keep looking and I can't find it." And I went, "it is right where I said I left it like months ago. Months ago." This was when Vernay visited in like March. This was like months ago. So anyway, it's just, and we have had cleaners come since then. And then today as I was writing this down to like tell you, I heard a noise and I, I was wearing my noise canceling headphones and I like lifted one and I realized my printer was going. And I was like, well that's weird.
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Hundreds of pages. And I'm like, oh my God, what is this?
Em Schulz: Shut up.
Christine Schiefer: It just has all this creepy like smiley faces.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Look at these. I mean it has like these creepy.
Em Schulz: Smiley face.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like little, I mean, you know what house that is, right?
Christine Schiefer: Look at them.
Em Schulz: We can't say it yet, but you know what house that is, right?
Christine Schiefer: No. Which one?
Em Schulz: Uh.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh, my God. You're right. The technology.
Em Schulz: I mean, but that doesn't feel right either.
Christine Schiefer: I know it doesn't.
Em Schulz: I mean, that, that, feels the most similar. I mean that happened at that location. But that's also, but we can't talk about it, but.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. I know.
Em Schulz: But I know, I know and you know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: I do. I do. And now I'm a little.
Em Schulz: It seems the most like it would come from that location, but maybe it's something fucking with us because it knows about what happened.
Christine Schiefer: It could very well be.
Em Schulz: Like, maybe it's like.
Christine Schiefer: Also it's like different enough from that that like, it could just be some weird, oh wait, no, you're right. The disappearing stuff.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay. That means well now we can't say the rest of it.
Christine Schiefer: It's not good. That's not good. Uh-oh. Okay. Well you better come to the live show 'cause I feel like, uh, we're gonna need to update you.
Em Schulz: We might be getting haunted by a very, uh, prominent ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Like perhaps the worst one to be haunted by. Maybe.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay, well.
Christine Schiefer: Like, look this and oh, oh, and then I.
Em Schulz: Can you take a picture of that so we can post it?
Christine Schiefer: I did already, yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And I, I canceled it 'cause I'm like, whoa, it's printing like hundreds of pages, so I just hit cancel. Right. And they're like falling on the ground.
Em Schulz: Oh, my god.
Christine Schiefer: Like out of a fucking like, movie.
Em Schulz: Did you film that?
Christine Schiefer: One of these TV movies?
Em Schulz: That's the creepiest thing.
Christine Schiefer: No, I didn't, I didn't even think to, and then I, I just hit stop. 'cause I was like, it's wasting so much fucking paper. So I hit stop and it's like job canceled. So I go back and I sit down and I start like doing my work. I'm like, that's creepy. I took a photo. I was gonna like, I was like, oh, I have to tell Em about this. I'm sitting there typing and I like pull my earphone out again, the printer's going again. And I go back and there's just hundreds more. And I'm like, I just canceled that. Like I, it said job canceled. So I had to just unplug the printer. Thank God it didn't do it again.
Em Schulz: Could you use your printer as a Ouija board and just say like, if there's something you want, like a message you have, can you just put it on the paper?
Christine Schiefer: Well, there's a bunch of random letters in here. Maybe I can try and read it. Maybe not.
Em Schulz: Like a, like a cipher.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a lot of Wingdings. You know what I mean? Umm, oh by the way, if you're like, not sure what I'm talking about, there's just like copy paper, like hundreds of pages. Ooh. It's giving me the chills. Like, look at the side right here. Like weird things in the...
Em Schulz: Yeah, It's not even how printers should be printing.
Christine Schiefer: It's not even a, how a border would work on this printer. I've printed, I've used this printer, by the way, for, since I moved in and never had a problem.
Em Schulz: Could it... Is it like Bluetooth. Could someone be fucking with you from like a house next door?
Christine Schiefer: I guess, but like...
Em Schulz: Well that's eerie. That's...
Christine Schiefer: For what I mean.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Can you imagine if someone next door is just trying to like, make an escape room at home? And like, just meant to print all that out.
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine it's just a 5-year-old and they just learned what Wingdings is and they're like just trying to print. But like, it's just...
Em Schulz: That's weird.
Christine Schiefer: It's, these are all smiley faces. It's hard to see, but these are all smiley faces.
Em Schulz: Oh I.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's like.
Em Schulz: You know, I was literally a, I have a printer in my Amazon cart now I'm not fucking getting one. Just no way.
Christine Schiefer: I'll tell you the make and model of this one and maybe avoid it. But yeah, I have like covered in chills. I just keep having these weird moments where I'm like, somebody's fucking with me. And so last night when I found the AirPod, I literally laughed out loud and I was like, "well thank you." I asked for the sleep mask, I asked for the AirPod they both appeared.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it seems like they're down to like only prank you until it's not funny anymore. That's nice.
Christine Schiefer: Until I decide that it's it's I've had enough. Umm, yeah. That's why it feels trickstery, right? 'cause it's like, oh, it like ends up coming back. I mean, I've ended up wasting a bunch of money on one extra AirPod, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Do you think us going on a ghost hunt is what caused this? Or do you think this like something's awoken recently?
Christine Schiefer: I think it...
Em Schulz: I mean we're both really stressed. Could it be that?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think it could either be that. It could be, you know, having the child in the house now running around, like maybe that stirred up like some childish trickster energy. I think it also could very well have just been exacerbated by us going and like doing all these, you know.
Em Schulz: Things. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Things with our lives. Or it could have been directly correlated to the investigation. I don't know. But it's just like, it's getting like eerie how on point it is. Like I'll say, can I find this sleep mask?
Em Schulz: Do you think it's listening to you right now?
Christine Schiefer: Probably. What should I ask? Oh, the, I, uh, this is the test. Okay. I lost ages ago, which I feel so guilty about the um Sekhmet charm from my necklace, 'cause the the clasp broke and the Sekhmet charm and the scarab, I cannot find them anywhere.
Christine Schiefer: And they, I thought they were in my um like the pocket of my of my hand bag, like the zip pocket, just gone.
Em Schulz: With your hairy Werther's.
Christine Schiefer: With my hairy Werther's. So uh yeah, I guess this is my, this is my call out, if uh you can find it somewhere in the world where I lost it or where it disappeared and bring it back, then uh...
Em Schulz: And bring it back in an obvious space like put it like on the toilet or something.
Christine Schiefer: Somebody... Somewhere very clear so that I know, but yeah. I uh... That will be... That's a nice test. So we'll see.
Em Schulz: Man. I...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, sorry for talking so much, but it's just been a weird couple of hours/days.
Em Schulz: Nope you're good. It's really weird for Blaise to believe you. That's...
Christine Schiefer: He this morning... And it was this morning when I said the AirPod thing, and I was like, "I know you're not gonna believe me." He's like "No, I think I do believe you now, like I really do," and I went uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Ah.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause usually he'd go "No, I believe you. Of course." But this time he's like, "No, I think I really believe you. Like I really think something's happening" and I was like, uh-oh, uh-oh.
Em Schulz: You gotta start doing some goodbye rituals when we go to these places.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so, although I feel like I'm the worst of that, I'm like, "Well, I don't know, as long as you don't hurt me you can come along."
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm like I don't care if you're the nicest person in the world, don't fucking come near me, I'm like I'm not interested.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, I have, I have new toner for my printer. You wanna come by see what you can do.
Em Schulz: Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
Christine Schiefer: Wink, wink.
Em Schulz: Now you're the guy with the trench coat again but with toner.
Christine Schiefer: With toner and with Wingdings on.
Em Schulz: Um. Wow, I don't envy and I am scared to be near you, 'cause I don't want to rub off on me. Um not in this brand new house.
Christine Schiefer: You're coming, you're coming to visit me very soon.
Em Schulz: I know. I know. I'd like to think like Sarah Winchester and I'm like, if I go to your house and then a different location immediately after maybe it'll get lost there and it won't come home with me. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait I also did a seance with my friend a few weeks ago.
Em Schulz: Oh, shut the fuck up.
Christine Schiefer: I forgot about that.
Em Schulz: Oh well, what w... Was it in your house? Yes. It was. Was it with the Ouija board? Yes, it was.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Well then how did that go?
Christine Schiefer: Nothing seemed to happen. We got something that said, don't tell... Or no. Oh my God, it was so creepy. It said, who told Tommy and we were like, who told Tommy what? And then it just never answered us again.
Em Schulz: Also like, ugh am I supposed to be afraid of Tommy or is Tommy the, the hero in this story.
Christine Schiefer: And so every time I text, my friend Izzy now, and I'm like, hey, guess what? She's like, you told Tommy. And I'm like, no, I swear I didn't tell Tommy, I've never told Tommy and never will. I don't even know who he is.
Em Schulz: You're... Well I can't wait...
Christine Schiefer: Playing fast and loose.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm very happy to be associated with you. You're kind of like the drama, I always want more like I don't wanna be exactly involved. But I do want a like a front row sideline.
Christine Schiefer: What's that TikTok trend of like your type B, type C friend or it's like your type A, type B, type C, and it's like, Oh, I lost my wallet three weeks ago, but some guy has it and says he'll give it back next week my mom is gonna drive me and... You know just stupid shit like that. Or like I lost that year, lost my Social Security card on the floor of a bar, but it's fine, I don't think anyone is gonna use it I'm sure it'll turn up.
Em Schulz: Um. Sometimes I wonder how you're alive.
Christine Schiefer: Me too trust me.
Em Schulz: I... Um. Well, let me know if anything happens. I would definitely get like at... Just for... Truly, just to pull a Zac Bagans and do 24-hour paranormal surveillance. I would get a camera for like the three most like haunted rooms, you know. And don't don't even say anything just be like oh, it's for a safety.
Christine Schiefer: Wait I just realized where the sleep mask reappeared, where the printer happened is also where you saw the vinyl thing spinning.
Em Schulz: That was... I'm not kidding, that was... I've never had... And because, of course, there wasn't a fucking camera in there, but that Eva saw too, like that was easily one of the freakiest things that's ever happened because it was...
Christine Schiefer: And that's the exact spot right there.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay. I feel really validated because for if anyone who's uh not caught up or doesn't remember the story, Eva and I were staying at Christine's one time and we were both sitting in, I'm assuming what Christine has turned to do her Cricut room, because it was just full of vinyl and um like Cricut stuff, and there's like a, like a Lazy Susan essentially that's holding a bunch of the of the vinyl. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And we were just sitting, we were not near this thing, we were not near it.
Christine Schiefer: We were just like lounging.
Em Schulz: We were just laying there talking. I I wish I knew what I'd said because I wonder if it was like a, a nod to something I just said.
Christine Schiefer: A response. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But the the thing, it, it wasn't like, oh, the the air turned on and like it pushed a little bit. Someone... It was like someone took a hand and like wound their hand up and spun it as fast as they could, the entire thing did multiple full rotations by itself.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: And the way that I Scooby-Doo-ed out of there, like I never had upper body strength, but I almost pulled myself off that bed like a dog, like my, my legs never touched the floor, I just pushed myself off that bed an I was out of the room. And like, I, I remember looking at Eva and being like, "Did we just both see that?" And so rarely in my life have I ever had like visual evidence, and I'm so glad someone was in there with me to to confirm.
Christine Schiefer: Well it never... It didn't even occur to me till now, because at the time I was like, nothing ever happens in there, you guys are so like... I'm sure it was nothing.
Em Schulz: No it was, it was... It moved like a, like a, like a dreidel, it went full spin, full spin and so fast.
Christine Schiefer: Oh well you have been singing dreidel... The dreidel song. That must be why.
Em Schulz: I was talking about, Bubbie. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: We were, we were, we were reminiscing on Hanukkahs past.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No it was... So I totally... The fact that it was in that room, I totally believe you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. It's all...
Em Schulz: You gotta put a camera in there.
Christine Schiefer: Starting to click.
Em Schulz: Put a recorder in there at least to see if you get audio.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but there's a, a guest bed, it's a guest room, I don't wanna like film people.
Em Schulz: I just said put a digital recorder in there, you don't have anyone there now.
Christine Schiefer: I mean not now. Yeah, I guess I just have to remove the camera before people stay over and are like, "Why are you filming me sleep?"
Em Schulz: Oh, please, e-everyone who knows you would understand when you say, "Oh, ghosts."
Christine Schiefer: Uh. No, I'm not gonna tell them that if they're sleeping in there.
Em Schulz: Of, of all the rooms in your house I'm surprised that's the room, you put people in. It's like I think you want them to get haunted a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Well... I mean not anymore. Now I'm nervous, maybe I should move it.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well, I will tell you I'll never sleep in that, in that room.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The end, um...
Christine Schiefer: We'll see. Famous last words.
Em Schulz: Well, Christine, I... I'm sorry that you're going through all that. That is an excellent reason why you drink uh...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Excellent, excellent reason 10, 10 out of 10...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Very on theme, you know for once.
Em Schulz: Very on theme. I got nothing to say. I was just gonna talk about the reason why I drink is because I had a great brunch that you missed out on. Not because you missed out on it. But because...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Well, I wasn't thinking that until you said it, but okay.
Em Schulz: But because the I Frankenstein-ed my meal together because they had... It was a French place and they had steak frites, and um they also, because it's a French restaurant, one of the appetizers was like fresh out of the oven, like French baguettes with like like homemade butter.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And I combined the two and I sliced that baguette... I sliced her up real good right down the middle, put my steak and my fries inside made me a little sammy. Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that sounds good.
Em Schulz: And that's why I drink 'cause I had a great meal yesterday. Um. That was it.
Christine Schiefer: Congratulations.
Em Schulz: That was mine. So I'm, I'm... The end. Okay. Well that's why I drink and I drink an LD as you heard me crack it open when I totally panicked.
Christine Schiefer: When it was too much. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and that's all I've got. Are, are you, are you ready for a story or do you need to breathe?
Christine Schiefer: I need, no, I need one so bad. Just tell me a story. Distract me please.
Em Schulz: Okay. This is a, a very, very short story. I actually really had to try to make this longer and it's still like not even half of the length of my usual notes. So, umm, this, this is just a quickie, but I saw two people mention it in, uh, messages to me going, "Hey, have you ever covered this?" And I was like, that sounds stupid. Because...
Christine Schiefer: I have now. Oh yeah. I thought... Well that's not what I was expecting.
Em Schulz: [laughter] No, no you'll understand. I was like, "that sounds kind of stupid." I don't know. Like, I've never heard of that. Like, is that even a thing? And then I saw a second person say it and I was like, "okay, well I have to look into this." And so...
Christine Schiefer: Love that the first person is out there wondering like, "did Em see my DM and go, that sounds stupid. And then close their phone." You know who you are.
Em Schulz: I think they would understand because this is the ghost of the frozen chicken.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. All right. You're right. Okay. So they knew, they were like, "oh, I know exactly whose DM this was. It was mine." Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, more specifically, this is the, uh, ghost of the Highgate chicken. I've also heard Highgate Hill chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, so this is April 1626 [laughter] long time ago.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And it's a cold, cold day in Highgate Pond, which is in England. And Sir Francis Bacon is the main character of our story.
Christine Schiefer: Well, well, well, we're mixing our, mixing our meat genres here.
Em Schulz: I literally, I was like, there's gotta be a joke in there. Bacon and chicken. There's gotta be, uh, what's that? A uh hm. What is...
Christine Schiefer: It's not a surf... It's not a surf and turf. It's not really, it's a supreme.
Em Schulz: No. A chicken and bacon is usually like a club, right? Or is that Turkey? Turkey and bacon.
Christine Schiefer: That's Turkey and bacon.
Em Schulz: Chicken and bacon. Uh, they do a lot of, if there was a ranch, ranch situation, we could do, I feel like chicken bacon ranch is a pretty common thing.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like Burger King situation waiting to happen.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Anyway, I can't figure it out. I can't figure it out. Umm, but Sir Frances Bacon, he was there and he is hanging out with his friend, the good old Dr. Witherborn.
Christine Schiefer: Love him.
Em Schulz: And they're riding around in a little horse and carriage together. It's very beautiful. And it's this chilly day by the pond and they're just riding their little carriage.
Christine Schiefer: Oh how romantic.
Em Schulz: I know. They were holding hands. Umm, they were whispering sweet nothings into each other's ear.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And Sir Francis Bacon... Uh, well actually, do you know who Sir Francis Bacon is? Should I give you a little, a little recap on who he is?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I, I do, but let's do a recap for...
Em Schulz: For others. Right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Everyone else, not me. Wink.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So the main thing he is known for is he's the, at least for us, is he's the creator of the scientific method.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, do you know what the scientific method is?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And I should explain it for other people.
Christine Schiefer: You test it, you te... You have to test, test the hypothesis. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You're right. Yeah. There's so, umm, I'm not looking at paper here, I'm guessing, but I know there were six steps 'cause I remember that being on the test.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: In high school being like, what are the six steps? And I think it was you have a question, then you research it to the best you can come up with a hypothesis.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, you remember this? I don't remember this much of it.
Em Schulz: And then I think you test it, gather data, make a conclusion. I think that's it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah. But.
Christine Schiefer: Sir Bacon is that you.
Em Schulz: Sizzle. Sizzle. Um.
Christine Schiefer: You wanted me to call you that for years. It's about time I finally do.
Em Schulz: That's exactly f... Thank you. I'm glad that we're finally here. Umm, so anyway, he's the creator of scientific... That's the thing that we care the most about. But he was also the first, is it viscount, viscount, vis, viscount.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's, it, no, it, no. [laughter] Stop trying. It's getting worse. It's vi... It's viscount.
Em Schulz: Viscount.
Christine Schiefer: Have you never watched...
Em Schulz: What is it?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wha... Actually, yeah, it's that. No, it's viscount. Have you never watched Bridgerton? Oh my God. Get with the program?
Em Schulz: No. Is it really viscount?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Amazing. Of course, I would've never said that. My entire life...
Christine Schiefer: It's not vicecount.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's, it's kind of like when, umm, I finally learned it was Hermione, but after reading it in all the books, it was Hermonini or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like I've seen this word a million times in my head and now I'll never be able to break away from what it's actually called.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Viscount.
Em Schulz: Amazing. Okay. Thank you for telling me before everyone like lost their minds.
Christine Schiefer: Now that would've been fun.
Em Schulz: Umm, [laughter] he was the first Viscount of St. Alban's and he was also the Attorney General and Lord Chancellor. Umm, and this is like the most like classic old English thing I've ever heard. But as a child, basically at 12 he studied at Trinity College and then he went into law. [laughter] Umm, he was an advisor for the Royals and he was knighted by King James. And so or King James the first. So I think this is how him and his little buddy, Dr. Witherborn, I think this is how they know each other because they both have affiliations with King James the first.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So Sir Francis Bacon was knighted by King James the first. Umm, and Dr. Witherborn was King James the first doctor.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So maybe they just bumped into each other at the water cooler in the castle and they were like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That fucking guy, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The water cooler...
Em Schulz: And then they became you know friends.
Christine Schiefer: It was like this dirty well.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was actually just sludge, uh, full of plague. [laughter] And so Dr. Witherborn, he's hanging out there in their little, their little carriage together and they start talking and kind of just like how you and I yap on and on. I think they were just yapping. And we got to this place.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: They start coming up with like, new ideas for how to preserve meat besides just salting it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Sure.
Em Schulz: Because they're like, there's gotta be a better way. [laughter] And...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: The best guess is because it was so cold outside, they say it was snowy outside.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Umm, one of like the references Bacon used for his argument, he was like, "well, you know what, when we were just outside of the carriage, the carriage wheels, when they pass over the grass, even if the grass is under the snow, when you see the, when the grass, when you see the snow kind of go away and the grass shows up, it still looks green and fresh. So like, I wonder if you put things under snow and like keep them cold would they...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. He's literally using the scientific method. That's so adorable.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. It's like he...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so proud of him.
Em Schulz: Like invent it already. So umm, so he basically says like, "what if we just like tried to keep it cold and that would like preserve its freshness. Just like how with the grass."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "That we saw." And cracked.com says being the 1600s, Dr. Witherborn found the suggestion as asinine as washing your hands before surgery. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's good.
Em Schulz: And so Dr. Witherborn is like, you're fucking crazy. That can't be the way. Like...
Christine Schiefer: As he's just like scratching his own put... Picking his own nose and like...
Em Schulz: He scratching his wounds and eating them or something. Yeah. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Whoa. Okay.
Em Schulz: Trying to think of something the opposite that a doctor would do.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: By the way...
Christine Schiefer: That sure sounds like it.
Em Schulz: There was a kid, I'm not gonna say his actual name. Let's call him. I don't gimme a name.
Christine Schiefer: No, please. I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know what you're about to tell me. Hermione...
Christine Schiefer: Here we, here we go.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no.
Em Schulz: His name is...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: Peter Peter the big scab eater.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: He...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm done. I took the, I'm sorry. I took the headphones off. I can't hear you. [laughter] You have to promise you're not gonna talk about it anymore.
Em Schulz: I won't talk about Peter eating them in kindergarten.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. La-la-la-la-la.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Are you done?
Em Schulz: I had a friend who was gross in kindergarten, the end.
Christine Schiefer: That's fucking repulsive, dude.
Em Schulz: I know. I rem... That's why we're not friends anymore. I remember being like, yuck.
Christine Schiefer: Actually makes me like my stomach really feel ill.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I remember being like as a 5-year-old I think it was the first time I ever thought, you have to be fucking kidding me.
Christine Schiefer: That is so fucking foul. I'm sorry. [laughter] God.
Em Schulz: Okay, so anyway, did everyone have a good tummy churn?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Great. Okay, so they're trying to figure out this meat thing. He's like, there's no way that it's gonna get, that cold is the answer like that... It can't be that fucking easy.
Christine Schiefer: It's asinine.
Em Schulz: So Sir Francis Bacon is like "Horse carriage driver halt the carriage immediately" and they stop in the middle of Highgate Pond that they're currently crossing through.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And in this area, I guess it was a lot of farmland. So he ran over to the first house he saw that had chickens and he knocks on the door and he says, "I need to, yes, it is me, Sir Francis Bacon."
Christine Schiefer: It is I.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's like the, the most old school, 1600s Bill Murray story I've ever heard of like...
Christine Schiefer: It is, it is.
Em Schulz: You know...
Christine Schiefer: He just ran by and took a chicken. Okay. Maryam, whatever you say. Like no...
Em Schulz: Sir Francis Bacon was here.
Christine Schiefer: Swear.
Em Schulz: He, he bought me chickens. He did. [laughter] Um.
Christine Schiefer: Did he pay for them? He better have.
Em Schulz: I think he, it says he bought a chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good, good, good.
Em Schulz: Uh, but he had them totally like prep it. Umm, some other sources said that he like killed it with his bare hands. Wow. Umm, I think it's because this is a ghost story.
Christine Schiefer: And then did surgery. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right? Yeah. [laughter] Umm, but so, blah, blah, blah, blah so he buys the chicken somehow it is killed and, and prepped. And so then how long, by the way, was Dr. Witherborn just sitting in this fucking carriage for him to make a point? [laughter] You know...
Christine Schiefer: He's like... Oh. He's like, I wasn't trying to challenge you so you could prove it. Like let's just go home.
Em Schulz: He looked at the horse carr... Horse carriage driver sitting in the cold snow and went, hang on. Jeeves, he has to prep an entire fucking chicken for us to make his point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, sorry. He's gonna try and make a point he does... He is not gonna rest until he does.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: He's got this six step process. It's a whole thing.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Yeah. One day people, he says people will know what's what it's about whatever [laughter] So he brings back this chicken and uh, he says, "haha, here's a chicken. And it's also cold out. So I am going to stuff it now with snow from the ground and we're going to freeze it from the inside out. And then I'm going to put it in this bag for safekeeping and put a bunch of snow in that bag too. So it's frozen on all sides."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, and that's his like whole little test. Now, the ironic part of this entire story so far is we never find out the results. I, I'm guessing the results are that he was right because we literally freeze chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah has, has he heard of Tyson's? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Although I will say fun fact, this makes him the inventor of the very first frozen chicken and frozen chicken has existed then since the 1620s.
Christine Schiefer: That is pretty wild, actually.
Em Schulz: Would've never thought of that. I, when I think of like an ice box or freezing in general, I'm like, it couldn't have been the 1600s that existed.
Christine Schiefer: No, certainly not.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, fun fact, he is the inventor of the frozen chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Who knew?
Em Schulz: So, uh, and he is also the inventor of preserving meat without salt.
Christine Schiefer: He really should have gotten a cow though, like, just to match the name. You know.
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, not a cow, a pig.
Em Schulz: A pig.
Christine Schiefer: I'm a vegetarian. I'm sorry, I get mixed up. Um.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Eng-English and food are not my first language. [laughter] Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Food. Yes. Meat? Not so much.
Em Schulz: So basically he's with his cow, I guess. Uh, but he, so he freezes this chicken and then we don't know what happens because the story ends up taking a sharp left turn. And while he was out there, I guess waiting outside in the cold for the chicken to be prepped and which I love that they didn't invite Sir Francis Bacon inside their own home to like prep his chicken for him.
Christine Schiefer: They're like you're a little...
Em Schulz: You can fucking wait outside.
Christine Schiefer: Too weird.
Em Schulz: Umm, but he was outside the whole time and then he was like fucking with snow to like pack the chicken. Basically he ends up getting a cold and the story kind of ends there because the story, the the next part is that this cold is what killed him.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: He ends up getting pneumonia and dies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: The, and again, this is, umm, this is part of the story. I'm hearing it for the first time like this, this seems to be a well-known story across people who know the history of the frozen chicken. Umm, but yeah, so usually when you hear Sir Francis, Sir Francis Bacon, you hear, oh, he died in 1626. They don't tell you it's 'cause he was inventing frozen chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He was busy revolutionizing toddler meals forever.
Em Schulz: Yes. Thank you. Like if he, you know, rest in peace, you would have loved chicken nuggets. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: You would've had Dino nuggets forget about it.
Em Schulz: Umm, well he didn't know what a dinosaur was. He would, that would've really blown his mind.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I was gonna say thank God he didn't dig any deeper into that snow 'cause that he had enough to learn for one day.
Em Schulz: Brilliant. So he ends up getting pneumonia, he dies and then, umm, and that's kind of where the story ends. But days after he died, people in Highgate Pond start reporting seeing a fucking chicken [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: It's almost as if they say when he went over to kill this chicken, the chicken retaliated and within days killed him.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And is now on his vengeful spree and uh, uh, or his, or his celebrating that he finally got him back.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And so there are now many records of this fro... Not, well, I guess he's not totally frozen now 'cause he's running around. But there's this random fucking chicken who is half plucked and some say headless. Some sources said headless. There's a chicken running around just charging you.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: And then vanishing into thin air.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like we don't hear enough about ghost animals. Like I know we've heard of ghost horses and dogs and cats, but like, you don't usually hear, I mean, imagine a slaughterhouse like, oh my God...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just the thought of like how many millions, hundreds of millions of animals like could become ghosts. But no, just this one chicken that, uh, that's getting its vengeance on Sir Francis Bacon.
Em Schulz: It's, uh, yeah. And also chicken retaliating on bacon is interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I know. That's actually a great point too. That feels very, uh...
Em Schulz: Some...
Christine Schiefer: Chick-fil-A coated... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. I was gonna say there's some sort of like meat dual that's happening.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: But anyway, before I get into the haunts of this chicken, I want to end this section with a poem that was written about, uh, Sir Francis Bacon's experience.
Christine Schiefer: These English, these English people. Okay, go ahead.
Em Schulz: Against cold meats was he insured for frozen chickens, he procured, brought on the illness he endured and never was this Bacon cured.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter] Very good. Very good. Very good.
Em Schulz: I love the double entendre at the end.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, me too. That's beautiful.
Em Schulz: Bacon cured.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: So, okay. He dies. Now everyone's seeing this chicken. Every single website, by the way, makes a joke about the chicken being a poultrygeist. So here I go mentioning it.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I cannot believe I didn't say that. Umm, who wrote the poem?
Em Schulz: Uh, it was a man named Pip Wilson.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I don't know what it was for. It could have been his eighth grade slam poetry contest. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I just felt he deserved credit.
Em Schulz: Umm, but no, that I thought it was beautiful. So people at Highgate Pond reportedly see a chicken running through the area, sometimes towards you, sometimes in circles. Sometimes he's just, just in all directions, just scatterbrained. He's also seen hanging in low, hanging out, not hanging, hanging out in low branches of surrounding trees.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And he has been known to just drop on people just to get you, I guess hit you in the head. And he's also known to vanish before your eyes. So one source says that the, like I said, the chicken is headless, however, all the time he's either half or totally plucked.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Which a naked chicken or a hairless chicken, basically. Uh, that is just so much freakier like, and also like, 'cause then if you think it's alive, you're like, oh my God, it must be in so much pain.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's terrible. That's like a really haunting experience. Well literally.
Christine Schiefer: And also, it would be such an Uncanny Valley situation. 'cause like, I know people see like, stray cats on the side of the road. Imagine seeing a stray hairless cat. You're like, what the fuck are you doing here? You know.
Christine Schiefer: You're like wait, that's not the usual neighborhood cat. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Especially, I mean, I am one of those people who is freaked out by hairless cats. I'm, I'm so, like they really...
Christine Schiefer: We've heard you talk about rat tails and opossum, so yeah I'm not surprised...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. If it doesn't have fur I really have a problem with it. Umm, and if I saw a hairless cat charge at me, I would absolutely lose my mind. I, I would for sure freak out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So if I saw a chicken version of that, absolutely, I'm freaking out. And also, you might not even recognize it without feathers at first you'd be like, "what the fuck is running at me?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels like a Butterball turkey. [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Did it... It's like the sentient turkey from Thanksgiving.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels like a cartoon. Yeah. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, uh, anyway, so it, it charges at you and then it vanishes, that's kind of its thing. It was most often seen during World War II because that was when at this pond, a bunch of troops were stationed there.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So it was just more people, therefore more eyes, also more mouths to spread this rumor. And one soldier was said to even try to catch the chicken when he saw it, because he wanted to make it into dinner. Umm, I don't know if that's like supposed to be a joke or something, but if, if I saw a half pre-made chicken, I'd be like, someone's hands have already been all over that. I don't know if I wanna touch it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it's, and it's a guy who did surgery right afterwards, so I don't think we need to eat that chicken.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, uh, anyway, the whole, the main story of the World War II era is that someone tried to capture it and then never got to because it, they watched it vanish through a wall.
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine coming home and being like, "I've got stories from war and it's like this fucking chicken walked through a wall." [laughter] I'd be like, "grandpapa, tell me the tale again of your virtuous battles."
Em Schulz: I'd like wait, you have shell shock. I see. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh, dear. You're troubled beyond repair. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also like, like, yeah. I can't imagine the just so silly. Just so silly. You know how it goes.
Christine Schiefer: Just, you know, wartime so silly.
Em Schulz: Just... [laughter] It's just the silliest. Umm, so anyway, that chicken has fled the military. So that, that's chicken run, if I've ever heard it...
Christine Schiefer: Awol, awol. Chicken run. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, also in 1943, this was probably one of the more notable encounters, but a man heard, uh... He didn't see it, but he heard this phantom old school horse-drawn carriage rolling by.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Interesting.
Em Schulz: And sometimes people have heard it flying by as if like, we gotta get to a kitchen and cook this chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Jeeves. Step on it.
Em Schulz: Jeev... At once. So as he never saw the, the, the horse-drawn carriage, but he heard it flying by him. And then he heard this loud screech and then a silence. In my mind, it's like he was saying, stop, we have to go get this chicken. Just.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Oh, there's a farm right there.
Em Schulz: Stop this fucking car. Uh, so yeah, they hear this, this carriage, then it's screeches and then all of a sudden you hear silence. But as soon as you think, well, that was weird. A big half plucked chicken comes up the hill shut and runs right past you, and then vanishes into thin air again.
Christine Schiefer: I mean wow. What happened that this chicken is so traumatized? I mean, of course it was a horrible thing, but this happens to chickens every day. I wonder why this one stuck around.
Em Schulz: I know. I, it's like, I feel like there's, I'm sure that chicken had a cousin who like had it worse.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like, I don't know. I mean, I don't, not to like diminish his trauma or anything, but it's like, wow, I'm surprised that this is the first one I've heard of the first...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ghost chicken I've ever heard of.
Em Schulz: I, I wonder if in today's world he'd be a content creator. And he heard that like he was connected to like a bigger story with like Sir Francis Bacon.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like...
Em Schulz: And he was like...
Christine Schiefer: I gotta really push that narrative. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I am the, uh, the, the trigger object of this story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I guess I'm just gonna, I'm the star, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh. As he deserves.
Em Schulz: So other people have also heard this carriage screeching to a halt. They've heard a chicken bawking, they've heard the sound of wings flapping. People have seen this thing. And it's little naked chicken wings flapping around.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: In 1969, one driver, actually, their car broke down on the side of the road and while they were trying to fix their car, this white, like plucked bird just charges at him. Which...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: That feels like goose energy.
Christine Schiefer: It does feel like wild goose energy. It sure does. It sure does.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then again, right when he thought, this is it, I'm gonna get fucked up by this little chicken. It disappeared in front of him.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if that one had a beak. 'cause I feel like sometimes it's, it's scarier that it's headless, but sometimes I'm like, but those beaks could really do a number on you. You know so...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I feel like if it didn't have a beak, I could take it.
Christine Schiefer: Right. But also then it's a headless bird and you're like even more traumatized, you know what I mean? Like you're more psychologically scarred.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Rather than physically scarred. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, I'm not pro, umm, animal abuse, but if I saw...
Christine Schiefer: Oh you're not, that's, oh that's news to me.
Em Schulz: But if I saw headless anything charging at me, my thought would be, I could fight this fucking thing. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, if it's gonna attack you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, I would like you to not have your weapon so I can win.
Christine Schiefer: I would rather you stop. Yeah. Please.
Em Schulz: Um.
Christine Schiefer: Put down your weapons.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Put down your, your face. [laughter] So in 1970, this is the last real sighting that anyone had was in 1970. One couple was um, hmm, having a tryst out by the pond. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh la la.
Em Schulz: Very, very X-rated tryst.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And out nowhere under the tree, they were under this tree. And on top of them, a half plucked chicken fell outta the tree onto them...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And starts...
Christine Schiefer: So this chicken has like a vendetta. I don't even know.
Em Schulz: He's a cock blocker some might say.
Christine Schiefer: He's such a cock blocker. He, wow. Em, that was good.
Em Schulz: A bawk blocker. A cock bawker. A cock bawker.
Christine Schiefer: Cock blocker. Oh my God. You just cock bawked me. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's a double, double entend...
Christine Schiefer: That's the one.
Em Schulz: Umm, so yeah, this chicken absolutely ruined their vibe and landed on them and then ran around them in several circles and then poof, vanished into thin air.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and imagine like the feel of like, you know, when you're, ugh, like back when I used to make a turkey for Thanksgiving like...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: You have to like...
Em Schulz: I know what you're saying.
Christine Schiefer: It's all like, like goose skin like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Pimply. And you have to, it's all like...
Em Schulz: Ah.
Christine Schiefer: Rubbery. I feel like that falling, like you're having, you're like all horned up like these two and this fucking thing falls on you. I feel like I, every time I kiss that person, I'd be like, ooh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Imagine if it accidentally created a kink, and now they're like kind of into deli meat during...
Christine Schiefer: I guess maybe that's true.
Em Schulz: I mean, oh, sorry. I'm talking about myself. I'm talking about myself. [laughter] Um.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh, change the su... I thought we weren't gonna talk about that.
Em Schulz: Deli meat all... Just all over the place. Um.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if you told me that. If you confided that in me, I really wouldn't. No offense but...
Em Schulz: No, I feel like there, I... Like I would be, yeah, I would just imagine like... And I like, is it cold? Is it hot? I don't know what to experience.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I was wondering too. Is it like body temperature that's somehow freakier to me or is it freezing 'cause it's filled with snow, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Imagine if it, it was headless and now a headless bird has fallen on you.
Christine Schiefer: And is its guts... Are its guts spilling out? Like, or is it, you know, which.
Em Schulz: It's snow. Is it melting out as water?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just dripping all over? Is it damp?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Does it... Well, and I was gonna ask, does it ever show up in, at, in the win... Like in the spring or is it only winter time that it shows up?
Em Schulz: So apparently, uh, the, I had this... Someone had this question before.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God.
Em Schulz: The most often people have seen it was in the cold.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Wow. It's... Okay.
Em Schulz: As if it... Yeah. Almost as if it was like residually connected to the hi... The history of it or something.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's very interesting.
Em Schulz: Um. But yeah, so the residents who live in the area also report seeing a big white bird, um, just running around as I just said, especially in colder weather, which is what I guess makes it weirder 'cause I guess if... This isn't an area that now has a bunch of farmland and chickens like it used to, so it's not like, it's just like a bird on the loose.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It not like somebody's loose chicken. Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, anyway, other sources have suggested that the origin of this ghost, this was like two random websites that they said like, you know, they could be the Sir Francis Bacon thing, but other people have said, and the other people were like those two websites. Um, but they say that the origin is that it could just be a chicken that went missing, but then like somehow survived for 400 years.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Um, and some think that this is actually the ghost of a chicken used during a coven's ritual. So that's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, whoa.
Em Schulz: Um, which in that case, if you're a witch who has ever like used any part of an, an animal body to, as part of your ritual, are you now connected in some way?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Look out.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know. Um, another theory... Oh no. Another theory is that it's just a loose chicken, but most people stand by it being the ghost of the first ever frozen chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, it makes the most sen... I mean sense is kind of a, a, a wild word to use here, but it makes the most sense that it would be the one connected to like this groundbreaking moment, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like that was an important chicken.
Em Schulz: It was. I mean, of the chickens you would want it to be the first at something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels like it had, it had its glory, you know, five minutes of fame and it's just kind of extended them.
Em Schulz: Like the first cow to be a burger. I'd like to know what that cow is about you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I feel sad that they're...
Em Schulz: It deserves to haunt a hamburger joint.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so. Yeah. I hope he is having fun though, like, dropping out of the trees onto lovers instead of just like, sadly like trying to find his head or whatever.
Em Schulz: I mean, if he's haunting like, you know, a, a steakhouse or something like the, like the very first steak, I would hope the cow is like such a mean girl about it. And he's like, you bitches can't fucking compete.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like I was the first.
Christine Schiefer: Oh please. You call that a steak frite Em inside a baguette.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So I will end on this. One of the sources I used was a reporter who writes, and I think this is, I... Is a writer for, I kind of think this may be like, she might be the only person who is in charge of this. So she's not a reporter. She might be the creator of Backyard Poultry Magazine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um. Which is a website, but apparently it's also a, a real magazine. But I think it might be like an online magazine. I'm not totally sure of the situation. But Backyard Poultry Magazine exists.
Christine Schiefer: That's all I need to know.
Em Schulz: The end. Obviously that took me down an online spiral.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: And I just wanted to let everyone know the Backyard Poultry magazine, if you are someone who is, um, in the world of fowl and poultry and you're farming or something and you need to know things about chickens or turkeys or quails, it's all, it's all there. Um, recent topics, um, just to give you an idea of what you can find there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And they've got a little bit for everyone because even though I am not a farmer or a chicken owner, I can tell you my ADHD would suck me into these topics.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for sure.
Em Schulz: Here are some of the... Some of the more recent articles are a salad recipe for your chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait. To eat the chicken?
Em Schulz: No, no. Oh, good question. A salad recipe to feed your chicken.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was like, this kind of fucked up. You're like, oh, how to take care of your chicken. And then if you wanna eat them, here you go.
Em Schulz: Here's a salad recipe for your chicken who you will put in a salad one day.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Then the article is What Is Custard?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: There's another one that says Understanding Egg Yolk Colors, which I love.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That could be interesting.
Em Schulz: And then just a little something for the, for the midnight doom scroll. How to spot parasites on ducks.
Christine Schiefer: Ah. Okay. This is so good, Em, because I feel like if I went to the dentist and they had this instead of InTouch Weekly, I'd be like, forget that. I wanna know about...
Em Schulz: Could be like I gotta know.
Christine Schiefer: What's custard really.
Em Schulz: What is it?
Christine Schiefer: Tell me more.
Em Schulz: And also the website has a section called flock files. Flock files for quick reference sheets to anything you could need to know about keeping poultry. And they have a rent a hen program called Hen Pals.
Christine Schiefer: Hen Pals.
Em Schulz: Which pairs chickens with potential owners.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm gonna get on this, this, this, this meet, meet-cute for chickens in a just...
Em Schulz: A meet-cute. I love that.
Christine Schiefer: A meet-cute for chickens. Uh...
Em Schulz: Backyard Poultry, are you listening? 'Cause Hen Pals could have a meet-cute, meet and greet meetup situation.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm looking at chicken... I don't think they wanna lean into the meat part, Em, sorry. But I don't think that that's something that they're, even though, um...
Em Schulz: Give me a day and I'll ruin your entire business. And I will, uh...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I'll...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, I thought you meant me. I was like, don't do that. It's your business too. Why would you do that?
Em Schulz: Nope. Give me a day over at Backyard Poultry and let me come up with some ideas and I'll, I'll ruin the entire vibe by referring to them as yummy meat the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: Em I need you to be quiet because there is a kids' corner and in the kids' corner, uh, I would like you to hear the top articles, uh. Twas the Night Before Christmas Chickens Edition.
Em Schulz: Excellent.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Chicken Enrichment, Toys for Chickens. And then my personal favorite, Chicken Clothes for Halloween and Christmas.
Em Schulz: I see nothing wrong with any of that. Perfect.
Christine Schiefer: There's only, only right. Only right. Oh my God, these chickens have so many clothes.
Em Schulz: So if you have a chicken and you're thinking that guy's a little too naked from me, now you know where to get the clothes.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I think that chicken that keeps falling out of the trees is a little too naked and he needs a little bomber jacket.
Em Schulz: He also needs like a mannequin head or something. Um.
Christine Schiefer: He needs a... He needs a... He needs a little help. Let's just put that like...
Em Schulz: Do you imagine if someone tried to just quote, fix the chicken and duct tape a styrofoam mannequin head to a headless running around chicken who's also naked?
Christine Schiefer: I mean like, no.
Em Schulz: That's quite an image. That's a acid trip.
Christine Schiefer: I love this one. Designer Chicken Attire. This is a caption for the photo designer. Chicken Attire by Julie Baker. Photo by Julie Baker. There's literally like designer clothes for these chickens.
Em Schulz: I think the person who runs this is doing the Lord's work. That's what I think.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna send these in the group chat where Eva has no idea what's going on.
Em Schulz: Great. That sounds perfect.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. Excellent.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that is the Highgate Chicken Ghost.
Christine Schiefer: I feel so illuminated. Thank you.
Em Schulz: You are welcome.
Christine Schiefer: I feel that I was not...
Em Schulz: Oh, there they are.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was not really... Yeah. Take a look at those. Take a look at those, Em.
Em Schulz: Take a gander.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, take a gander at these chicks. Look at those fucking outfits.
Em Schulz: Hot chicks.
Christine Schiefer: They are.
Em Schulz: I did... I did see one of their, um, one of the articles or one of their summer issues, it said, How to Hang Out With Some Hot Chicks, like something else.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I was like that's beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: This... You know, you know, they just have the greatest time. I've... I love this. Backyard Poultry is my new jam.
Em Schulz: Perfect.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I...
Em Schulz: And if you had it on your coffee table in Kentucky, no one would question you.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. For sure. I've wanted chickens for a long time. I just don't have the space for them. Um, my mom wants chickens too, but she has so many cats. I don't know. Why not.
Em Schulz: Well now you know how to dress them. Now you know where to get the clothes.
Christine Schiefer: I know. There's like all this stuff about actually like making them the right food and I'm like, no, let's just buy another leather jacket. That's really what I'm concerned about.
Em Schulz: There was, uh, there was one article I saw where it was about like teaching, um, how to have quail eggs in your school room to like, teach kids about eggs and like warming them and stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow.
Em Schulz: And then there was another, um, like a candling chart. I guess people can like warm up eggs with candles and you can see inside the eggshell to see like the embryo stage.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Whoa.
Em Schulz: And there was a whole thing about that. It was very fascinating.
Christine Schiefer: I like this article. Cinnamon Rolls. What are talking about?
Em Schulz: I know that. I think I'll... Same with the custard. I think it's like things you can put eggs in.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fair point. Okay, fair point. Okay. Yeah. They do talk about raising meat chickens too, so it's not just, uh, it's not...
Em Schulz: That one could be called meat-cute.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That one could be called meat-cute. So there's room for all of us. Um, wow. What a... Em, what... I was gonna say rabbit hole. Not quite what a little, what a little poultry hole you've taken. That sounds so bad. Nevermind. Scratch that.
Em Schulz: No. Say it again. Say it louder though.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. Poultry hole. Okay. I can't stop. All right. I need you to understand that this is one of the wildest part twos I've ever covered.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. It's a part two.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: Oh my, okay, okay. Okay. Hang on. Let my... Let my brain do the, the old school, like videotape [rewinding noise]. Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. If you are trying to listen to this backwards, stop it right now, because seriously, you do need to...
Em Schulz: You won't get it.
Christine Schiefer: You need to hear the first part.
Em Schulz: Oh, I remember.
Christine Schiefer: You'll get it, but it's not as interesting. Like go listen to part one then come back to this because it's, it's worth the part one to get to the part two. Um, and I'm gonna give a recap for everybody just so we all are on the same part or are all on the same, um, page. And I also wanna add that this is, remember when you said, oh, so you're not covering a crime? And I said, "Nope, that's not true." Um, this episode, this is Steven Stayner part two and The Sightseer Murders.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So we're gonna basically launchpad off of this story into another true crime story, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Oh, I see. Okay, damn. 'Cause I was like, the last you said, which I know you'll do a recap, but the last you said was that Steven Stayner is now doing good and he had got a TV rights deal.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly.
Em Schulz: So, and...
Christine Schiefer: Good memory.
Em Schulz: Originally I thought that the true crime was gonna be like, oh, he's getting like, ripped off and like robbed financially or something. I... That was... It's like how do you make that a crime.
Christine Schiefer: So we... We are gonna over... Yeah. The, the story there too. Um, but yeah, it, it does branch off into a separate crime, so.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just to give you a heads up. But, so here's a brief recap. Um, but again, go listen to it first. 7-year-old Steven Stayner was abducted in December, 1972 by Kenneth Parnell, who sexually abused him and kept him captive for seven years. When Steven was 14, Kenneth abducted 5-year-old Timmy White and Steven escaped with Timmy to freedom. The media hounded Steven and he struggled to process his trauma and recover, but he eventually married his wife Jody and they had two children named Ashley and Steven Jr. Steven and his family began to feel as though their lives were returning to normal and Steven sold the rights to his story. And here we are, May 22nd and 23rd 1989. NBC airs a two-part special featuring Steven's life story. And it's called, I Know My First Name Is Steven.
Em Schulz: Ooh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's this dramatized version of Steven's story. Um, it follows Steven from his abduction in the 2nd grade all the way to his adulthood and marriage, and 40 million people tuned in to watch this mini series. It was sensational. To gain intimate knowledge of the real life story, the director actually spent weeks interviewing Steven and his family, listening to all the interrogation tapes, like listening to the, the, uh, tapes with Steven describing his ordeal to the police. Like they dove deep into Steven's life to get all the information for the story. And while the final docuseries was compelling, it was fictionalized in a lot of ways, right?
Em Schulz: Oh, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Like they were gonna make it... It's very, um, Lifetime.
Em Schulz: Like a Hallmark movie. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's very lifetime. Um, and so Steven's mother Kay was ultimately unimpressed and Del, his father, fucking hated this movie. Uh, the director and writers took some liberties to dramatize the Stayner family. Like for example, in one scene, Kay and Del are like agonizing over having just $45 to fund Christmas for their, for their children.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And Kay's like, um, that's, no, we were never quite that destitute, but okay. You know, it just felt like they kind of exaggerated a lot in...
Em Schulz: In like all the unnecessary parts just to like add more...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. To like...
Em Schulz: Even more problems.
Christine Schiefer: Hard drive it home. Yeah, exactly. Drive it home. And I feel like, you know, if you're portraying somebody so one-to-one, like you're saying this is the story of Steven Stayner, it's like a little ickier to fictionalize it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's not like you're saying this is like loosely based on his story. You're like, this is him and his mom.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they're all named after the real people.
Em Schulz: Oof. That's rough.
Christine Schiefer: That's gotta be... That's gotta be troubling as the family. Um, but she didn't really mind. Like she's very easygoing person. She basically just thought to herself, that's Hollywood. And you know, she's not wrong.
Em Schulz: She's also probably like this, my fucking son's alive. I'm just gonna call it a win.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. No, you're right. You're right. Like the, um, the miracle has happened. You know what, whatever. Um, but Steven on the other hand, actually seemed to really benefit from the story being adapted, which is great. Um, I mean, I'll tell you why. Like, we'll get to why and how it really benefited him. But just as kind of like a summation of the events that have happened till now, um, you know, as we said, the press harassed the Stayner family for months on end. Steven did not get an opportunity to properly adjust to his life back home.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Um, his dad was like really still struggling with the fact that his 2nd grader was now in high school, you know, and had lived this whole life away from him. Um, the siblings were growing resentful because they felt like their parents were more focused on, you know, Steven than his older brother Cary, and then his sisters. And, you know, things were not smooth. It was a rocky road. But on top of that, we haven't even discussed this, which is what happened with Steven's abductor because you said last week...
Em Schulz: Yes. I said that last time.
Christine Schiefer: I... I hope we get... I hope we get to hear.
Em Schulz: Well because the last... So the last thing you said was that, I mean, he had, he had just, he had, this was when Steven was still kidnapped and this little boy Timmy was kidnapped.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and then when we... When they... When Steven realized that Timmy was about to start his, the next level of abuse with this man...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Steven grabbed him and ran away. And we never heard anything about the guy coming home and finding out they weren't there or like checking the news and realizing he was like, for sure a wanted man and needed to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Go into hiding now. We didn't hear any of that, so.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Exactly. So there was never... There was not a focus on that last week. So to give you an update, it's not great. In fact, it's like rather infuriating. So uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, let's get into it. So Kenneth Parnell was first tried for the abduction of 5-year old Timothy White, and he received, okay, he abducted a 5-year old, okay? Let's remember that.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He received the maximum allowed sentence, which was seven years.
Em Schulz: That's the maximum.
Christine Schiefer: Like you abducted a 5-year old and that's the maximum possible sentence.
Em Schulz: It's one of those things where like, well, because he, even if he had the intent to, because he didn't do the worst of the worst...
Christine Schiefer: The sex crimes.
Em Schulz: Then like, yeah. It's like, it's that stupid like weird loophole in like police work where it's like we have to wait for them to commit the crime for them to go to jail for it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like there's weird gray area where you're like, well...
Em Schulz: It's like with stalkers, it's like, well, he only stalked you.
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: He didn't, you know, he didn't kill you.
Christine Schiefer: He just wanted to... Right. He wanted to hurt you, but he hasn't yet. Like, what are we supposed to do with that you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's a really good point. And so yeah, he received seven years for the abduction of Timmy. Yeah. And then there was a second trial for Kenneth's abduction of Steven, and he also received the maximum, which was seven years. But he was not charged for any sex related crimes involving his abuse of Steven or any of the child sexual abuse materials he created. Just was not part... Was not charged.
Em Schulz: Wa... Just like, was there like a statute of limitations or something? Or he just...
Christine Schiefer: I do not know.
Em Schulz: How did he evade that? That's a pretty incredible thing to do.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe Steven just said, I don't wanna go there. I, I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Um, he also didn't have to serve his sentences consecutively.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So he got to be out and free on parole, like in between the sentence. It's just so weird.
Em Schulz: It's awful.
Christine Schiefer: Like, who's letting that happen?
Em Schulz: I've never understood how that works anyway. Like why wouldn't you just wanna get them all out of the way at the same time?
Christine Schiefer: I... I don't know. And so he was eligible for parole. So in 1985, 53-year-old Kenneth was released on good behavior after just serving five years in prison. Five years after abducting Steven for seven years. Kay was like, "he spent less time in prison than my son did as his captive."
Em Schulz: Yeah. But I mean...
Christine Schiefer: He literally spent less time in prison if that, if you need to be convinced to anybody that that's, that's fucked up. He spent less time in prison than he, than Steven did, being raped and abused by this man.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was gonna say, he sexually assaulted someone longer than...
Christine Schiefer: A child.
Em Schulz: He sexually assaulted a child and kept them from their parents for longer than he was gone.
Christine Schiefer: He was gone.
Em Schulz: Longer than he was locked up.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he, he was on good behavior. I mean, come on.
Em Schulz: I've never understood how on earth can you have such crimes against you and like, and I, I mean I, I'm the most ignorant person to this stuff, but like, when I hear good behavior, I'm like, you have to be fucking kidding me that that's even a rule at this point. Like, unless you had some sort of like maybe white collar crime where like, but if you're fucking murdering people, how on earth is good behavior even considered an option?
Christine Schiefer: Murdering... If you're sexually assaulting children and you're like...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Just because you're a good, like friendly and follow the rules in jail.
Em Schulz: It's like oh 'cause you did... 'Cause you swept the floor, the right, the right amount of times. Or like, you didn't fight somebody. It's like you didn't fight someone 'cause you're in prison, not because you wouldn't fight someone.
Christine Schiefer: As a child predator. Yeah. The, it's just, it's just so infuriating.
Em Schulz: Like you're in jail for being violent. How on earth? I, I mean, and also maybe, I don't know, maybe there's, in a, in a perfect world, there would actually be proper rehabilitation programs and like the, it would be more realistic to believe that somebody could...
Christine Schiefer: I know. And it's hard because I'm like, oh, I don't wanna be like stay in prison for like, you know, it's also fucked up. But like also this guy has raped a child and kept him pri-prisoner for seven years and we're like, oh, see, he seems fine now.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't, I...
Christine Schiefer: If you're gonna play that game then like don't put people in prison for weed, right? Like, it's like you can't...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't make sense. It's like, okay, if we're gonna play the fucked up game, then at least play it a little bit more reasonably.
Em Schulz: Like I feel like if we're gonna do, if even consecutively or non-consecutively is an option, how is like one of the options not good behavior doesn't count. Like you're still here.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right?
Em Schulz: Like how is that not part of this?
Christine Schiefer: Uh.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Maybe I'm totally ignorant and I'm happy to eat my words if someone, like, if I said something fucked up. But I, uh, currently that's my hot take of like, I don't know how good behavior is something all people can be exempt of jail time for when like, not all crimes are equal.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I agree. And it, it just, it feels really unsettling that he was let out before he even served his full seven years.
Em Schulz: Yeah. At the very least, how could a judge not say you should be gone for as long as your victim was gone?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. It's just so unsettling to me. Um, and, and of course Kay believed he was still a danger to children, that he would hurt someone again. And like, I guess that just didn't matter to anybody. Um, they tried Irvin Murphy, his accomplice, uh, in Steven's abduction, and he only served two years for being an accomplice in Steven's abduction. Taking him in a 7-year-old in the car and just driving him away. Um, just insane to me. But anyway, in 1989 when the special aired, Kenneth and Irvin had no more power over 23-year-old Steven, who was now, like we said, happily married, studying law enforcement in school. And actually fun fact, in the mini series, he played a police officer in the reunion scene where the actor playing his younger self returned home...
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: To Merced, California. And he played a police officer, kind of like in the, in the fray.
Em Schulz: I'm glad they included him in that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And he actually really seemed to like thrive after this...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: After this program aired.
Em Schulz: Did he get the acting bug?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: He just really felt like he finally kind of got like his own control or agency about the story. Like he was able to talk to the press about his story now as a 23-year-old not feeling like a child being like under the spotlight, but more, you know, he could tell his side of things. Um, and he felt like he was finally in control of his own life, his own story. Um, people close to him said it was a very healing process. Like, just to be able to get the story out there, the way that he remembered it happening.
Em Schulz: To find peace with it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm such a dumbass. Did he get the acting bug? I really thought you were going a completely different direction when you said he like, something happened in him during this. I've... Don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe he did, but...
Em Schulz: Honestly, I'm, I'm very on my toes about what the fuck this new crime is. And so I just keep thinking it's like entertainment related or something because of the movie, but that... Yeah. Whatever. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: It's... It's not.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, fun facts. Spoilers, it's not. So anyway, the movie was very healing for him. Um, it was called, I Know My First Name Is Steven. It's very '80s dramatized. Like, like slow mo, you know, it's like, it's uh, it's very '80s if you watched clips.
Em Schulz: A lot of synth piano or something in the background?
Christine Schiefer: Just yeah. Just very moody and like serious and over... Yeah. It, it's, it's, it's, it's very '80s, let's just put it that way. And actually it was so successful. It was nominated for multiple Emmys and a Golden Globe.
Em Schulz: Oh. Holy shot.
Christine Schiefer: That's how big this... It was sensational. Like this was a huge deal. But unfortunately Steven wouldn't see it win any awards because in September of 1989, about five months after the miniser-series aired, a car pulled out in front of Steven while he was on his motorcycle and he was killed in the crash.
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Five months after the miniseries aired. Just freak accident, hit and run, the driver drove away, fled the scene, and later turned himself in. But he died of a head injury.
Em Schulz: This man never, never, ever had a fucking break.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, hold that thought.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because one of the sto... One of the, one of the ways that his family has asked that this be portrayed is that he was really happy and was living a very fulfilled and happy life. And so they don't want it to come across as, oh, he just had like disaster after disaster because his wife, for example, like I, I mean get this, he was only 24 years old at this point. Like that's how young he was. And he had spent a little over a third of that in captivity, you know, and now, you know, now he was killed. And so naturally, uh, and by the way, just side note, the guy who, um, hit him was sentenced to 90 days in jail, uh, after turning himself in. But, um, you know, I think the fact that the media kind of took over again because of course the movie or the miniseries just sen... TV movie sensationalized. He's on this press tour. We're all bringing the story back, and then he is killed in a freak accident. Like, of course this is gonna be huge on the media or on the news. And, um, you know, the media tended to depict this, uh, like his life as this one long tragedy. Like he could never get a break or anything like that.
Em Schulz: It sounds like, like he's like never catching a break. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But, um, his wife Jody insisted he was very happy. He had finally found peace and happiness after his abduction. She said they lived a normal and comfortable life with their two children whom Steven adored. Like they just, he made his life something he wanted and he had a really happy, happy life at the end. So even though his life was cut abruptly short, he at least was able to turn it into something that he was really proud of. And, uh, you know, his wife just said, I want him to be remembered for like this family that he created and how happy he was, you know, to finally feel like agency in life.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And then of course, deeply tragic. He was, he was killed. And so that happened just months after the airing of the, uh, TV movie. Now fast forward to 2004.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Kenneth Parnell is arrested again. Hey, I wonder what he was doing. Oh, he was attempting to traffic a child. Wow. What a surprise.
Em Schulz: He didn't fucking... Oh my God. Okay. He didn't learn... The way... I mean, here I go thinking like a pedophile. I don't know what, like, if, if I ever committed a crime like that, I would be like, the fact that I only got five years is out of this world. I am so l-lucky, quote. So like, I, like, I really somehow evaded a lot more trouble than I deserve. I better stop.
Christine Schiefer: I, I don't know what this person's diagnosis is, if Kenneth Parnell, if there is one. But what I do know is after reading many, many books about psychopathy and sociopathy, if that is the case with him, which I'm very clearly saying, I do not know but...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: A lot of people, um, in this situation may be considered that way. I'm not really sure. But it, it, you know, a lot of his crimes point to at least having a lack of empathy.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so if, if it were the case that he is, uh, sociopathic or psychopathic, there is no, there's no, there's not that fear. They don't have that fear of getting caught. Like...
Em Schulz: Beyond me. Like I'll... I... I haven't even done anything wrong and I'm scared. Like I...
Christine Schiefer: I know. Because you're... You have that kind of... It's... It's a totally different, it's like turned off in their brains. Like it just, there's a lack of remorse, obviously, we know that. But there's also this lack of fear of getting caught because you just kind of assume things will work out for you. You're like, I don't care. I'm just... It's other people's problem.
Em Schulz: Well, it's... I do... It's like the, the narcissism element of like, well, I'll get away with it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just like... Man. I just...
Christine Schiefer: I know. And that's why when they like let them out for good behavior, I'm like, you know the story, you know how this goes, right? Like...
Em Schulz: Like no one's shown them like a statistics chart of like... Like maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is a chart that actually proves that, like the good behavior thing is worth it. But like I, I would imagine quite a lot of people can just good behavior their way out of jail. Call me crazy. But, um, yeah, it's not surprising to me that, that he was able to be smarmy and get his way out, you know.
Christine Schiefer: That he... He's back at... Back at it? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he's arrested for trying to traffic a child. He's sentenced this time, thank God, to 25 years to life in prison.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm assuming the laws have advanced since '80, the '80s. Um, and he died in prison in 2008. So back to Steven. He would be remembered as a very kind child, a heroic teenager who saved Timmy and as a loving husband and dotting father who touched many lives. And Timothy White was actually a pallbearer at his funeral.
Em Schulz: Oh. Wow. That's actually very precious.
Christine Schiefer: Very fantastic.
Em Schulz: So they like do... They stayed in touch?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: That's nice.
Christine Schiefer: In February, 1999, 42-year-old Carole Sund took, this is where we go in a complete plot twist. So...
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm ready.
Christine Schiefer: Buckle up. And also, I know you're in a new home, but the gargoyles, at least mentally get them prepared.
Em Schulz: Okay. I have... I have... I have pieces of wax from my cheese. I'll use that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Same difference.
Em Schulz: Okay. How many do I need? Let me break them off.
Christine Schiefer: Is that a Babybel?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: This is a Babybel. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I love a babybel. Okay. So, um, let's see, let's see. We're in February, 1999. Okay. And remember that, uh, he had passed, he was, Steven had been killed in a motorcycle accident in '89.
Em Schulz: Right. This is 10 years later.
Christine Schiefer: So 10 years later, Yosemite National Park.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: February, 1999. 42-year-old Carole Sund took her daughter, 15-year-old Juliana, who was known as Julie, took her daughter and her daughter's friend, her name is Silvina Pelosso to Yosemite National Park on like a little girl's trip. Her daughter and her friend.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The friend from Argentina, 16-year-old Silvina Pelosso. This... This is where it gets a little convoluted, because they're like family friends, and I just wanna give you the backstory of how they know each other. So Carole, the mom had grown up the middle child of five siblings and was very, very, very family oriented. Had four children of her own. She was an extremely organized person. She was like the very type A, like organized birthday parties for all of her friends. Was at every school sport, taught a parenting class, served on a safety committee for school children, was like deeply involved in the lives of her children.
Em Schulz: Dang.
Christine Schiefer: And Carole and her husband Jens were foster and adoptive parents. And she co-founded the Humboldt del Norte. How do you say that? Del Norte?
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: The Humboldt Del Norte County branch of CASA, C-A-S-A, an organization of volunteer legal advocates for children who experience abuse. So she's just like this activist.
Em Schulz: She sounds like a power woman.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Power woman, badass mom. And she also worked with a local nonprofit that provided housing for adults with developmental disabilities and rallied support for a local methadone clinic that opened in her town. And this is in like the '90. You know, this is like a while ago.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, where it was I think easier to brush shit under the rug.
Em Schulz: Not very well known.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, she was just a powerhouse of a person. Um, like her mother, Carole, Julie, little Julie, 15 years old, was an outgoing and passionate person. She was like head first, 110% involved in everything she did. Loved to compete in sports, was a cheerleader. Her best friend described her as always smiling, was very thoughtful and attentive, just like her mom. She once wrote a... A personal note for every single one of her friends, just about why she loved them and put them in their lockers.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Like, just like one of those kids where you're like, wow, you have a very pure heart. You know?
Em Schulz: Geez. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so now I wanna tell you how they knew Silvan... Silvina. So Carole, the mom had been a teenager and living in Argentina as an exchange student from the US and that's where she met her best friend, Raquel Pelosso.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they became BFFs. And when Carole moved back to the US, they stayed really close, like just writing letters, calling. They just stayed long distance best friends. Um, they both got married and they both had Julie and Silvina just a year apart. So now they had daughters the same age. And so in 1985, Carole and her husband took Julie to Argentina to meet Silvina. And so Carole was like reunited with her best friend and then brought her daughter to meet her best friend's daughter. And they like immediately bonded and became BFFs and like almost...
Em Schulz: Gotcha. So two generations of BFFs.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Like, took over the friendship. Like they were just clicked, just like their parents did, their moms did. Which I thought was just such a cool story. Um, and I love the way Saoirse wrote here. Uh, Julie and Silvina inherited their mother's friendship. I was like, that's beautiful. I love that.
Em Schulz: Aww. That's beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: So in 1998, Silvina now, and it's like such a full circle, Silvina arrived in California as an exchange student to live with Julie.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's so weird.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that crazy?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And like back decades before, um, you know, Carole had gone down to Argentina as an exchange student, and anyway, so...
Em Schulz: That's very cool.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So she was staying, uh, with the Sund family. She took honors math and science courses at Julie's high school, started playing basketball with a local league. Um, back home in Argentina, she had loved roller skating and when she got to California, she fell in love with ice skating and snowboarding. And, uh, Silvina and Julie were very close, but Silvina was more serious. Um, and like just a more kind of, uh, intense person, but also extremely kind. She struggled to make friends at first because English was hard for her, but she and Julie bonded immediately just like their mothers had.
Em Schulz: Mmh.
Christine Schiefer: And so, Ju, uh, Julie and Silvina decided they'd go with Julie's mom, Carole, on a trip to Yosemite. So February 14th, Carole, Julie and Silvina checked into the Cedar Lodge at Yosemite National Park. And this was like a short trip. Um, the trio was supposed to return a rental car at the end and meet Carole's husband at the San Francisco airport to kind of like round out their trip. February 17th, three days later, Carole's husband reported all three of them missing when they failed to show up at the San Francisco airport at their, like, agreed upon meeting place. And because it was winter in Yosemite, there were these hazardous driving conditions. Authorities suspected, perhaps Carole drove off a snowy road, and maybe they were stuck in a snowbank somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Um, been there, done that. And so they thought like, oh, maybe they've just had car troubles. You know, it's entirely possible. Things like that happen all the time. And so, you know, authorities weren't too worried. They said, worst case scenario, um, something terrible has happened. An accident, maybe they went over a cliff or into a river, but they... So they were pretty optimistic that they would find them alive and well, like maybe just car trouble, maybe in a snowbank somewhere. So they launched this enormous search effort, and even the Navy assisted by flying airplanes uh overhead.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: But there was no sign anywhere of Carole, Silvina or Julie. Carole's father took it upon himself to scour the park by himself. He brought a gun, a rope, first aid kit. He was like, ready for whatever he was able to find. He was checking rivers for signs of a crash. He actually had a gut feeling that this could have been an abduction or a crime, like a violent crime. And so he was searching garbage cans at the lodge where they had been staying wondering if he would find either their bodies or his daughter and wife and their close family friend.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And he's looking in, in the garbage cans at the lodge for maybe bloody sheets, bloody clothing, like any sort of clue he can find.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine the mindset of like, almost hoping you find...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Find something. And it's like, even though it...
Em Schulz: Your wife's bloody whatever. Like just for an answer.
Christine Schiefer: It confirms your worst fears, but it gives you some clue. Right. And so he spoke to everyone he could, but nobody had seemingly seen the trio anywhere. And there were not many people coming and going this winter. It was very isolated, very quiet. Um, but one of the few people that was out, uh, pretty much every day that month was 26-year-old Joie Armstrong. And she worked in the park as a naturalist and lived with a roommate in a remote cabin. Um, and the, the cabin had been provided to her as a housing for park employees. And she was the type of person who, you know, was very, very into the outdoors, but also very determined to kind of make a very specific path in life for herself. So she was able to overcome any fears that maybe stood in her way. She was able to basically launch herself into this very, very competitive position, living and working in one of the most popular parks in the world.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and she was able to, to get this gig, which was like a dream come true. Her mother, Leslie, said she was exquisitely happy working at Yosemite, even though it was just like very remote off the grid living. But because of these recent, you know, disappearances, people were feeling kind of on edge and anxious as the days went by and there was no sign of these three women, well, women and, you know, young women.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So March 15th, which was roughly a month later, Silvana's, Julie's and Carole's rental car was discovered several miles from where they were last seen at the Cedar Lodge. And the car had been completely eviscerated by a fire so intense that it scorched the branches on nearby trees 25 feet in the air.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Okay. So like the...
Christine Schiefer: Massive blaze.
Em Schulz: Beyond intentional, whatever happened.
Christine Schiefer: The FBI discovered the skeletal remains of two people in the trunk. And these bodies were identified as Silvina and Carole, but Julie was nowhere to be found. And so her dad held onto this hope that maybe they could find her.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But they had no leads. And the room where they had stayed at the Cedar Lodge was virtually void of evidence. Like nothing even seemed out of the ordinary, no signs of a struggle. Nobody had witnessed anything unusual. And basically, when all seemed hopeless, a letter arrived at the FBI headquarters and the letter contained a hand drawn map of the Don Pedro Reservoir.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Ew. Okay. So now this, now this person just wants to play, play a fun little game.
Christine Schiefer: The map pointed at the location where they would find Julie and wrote, we had fun with this one.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Whoa. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Is that not the most fucked up thing you've ever heard?
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Like that fucked me up... That really...
Em Schulz: No, that's, that's, that's very...
Christine Schiefer: That's like a gut punch.
Em Schulz: Because that also confirms like, even if you find her, like she's gone through it.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Whatever... She's... She is...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Without incredible therapy work, she is a, uh, we have traumatized her, if she's alive.
Christine Schiefer: They found... She's not. They found Julie's remains on March 25th, more than a month after her abduction. Uh, her remains were badly decomposed, but it was determined she had died when her throat had been cut.
Em Schulz: Mmh.
Christine Schiefer: The FBI arrested three people who were on parole for drug related convictions, one of whom allegedly made these kind of incriminating statements about being involved in, in what was, would become known as the Sightseer Murders. And so with suspects in custody, everyone kind of like breathed a sigh of relief at Yosemite, thinking like, oh, they put these three people away, you know, the bad guys are gone. We don't have to be looking over our shoulders all the time. And so, uh, Joie Armstrong, the naturalist who worked, uh, in the park, called her mom and said, "oh, I feel safe again finally living out here. It was like, kind of scary for a few months while, or for a month while we figure, while everyone was on their... On edge trying to figure out what happened to these people." Um, but now that these murderers were in jail and they're building a case against them, she told her mom, "okay, I feel safe again." But four months later, in July of 1999, Joie was reported missing by her friends when she failed to show up for plans she had made.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: On July 22nd, Rangers in Yosemite drove to Joie's cabin where they found her truck parked in its usual spot, but it looked like she had been in the middle of loading it for a trip.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And soon afterward, her remains were discovered in a creek near her home, and she had been decapitated.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Whoa. Okay. Wow. So someone's like... And sorry, you probably already said this, but so Joie is now a, a separate storyline, right?
Christine Schiefer: Totally separate. She was just...
Em Schulz: This happened to also be... She happened to be in Yosemite as a ranger?
Christine Schiefer: She worked in Yosemite as a naturalist. And, um, she had been following this story very closely because she worked there. And so she called her mom when they put those three men in jail and said, "oh, phew, I finally feel safe." And then...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say like, I can't imagine just...
Christine Schiefer: Four months later.
Em Schulz: Knowing that someone's out in the woods where you work and you're by yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And so she had... They... Everyone kind of had this false sense of security because they had put these people in prison, turns out maybe not, because...
Em Schulz: Or maybe not all of them or something. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mmh. Exactly. So the authorities informed Leslie, Joie's mom that remains had been discovered, but they hadn't confirmed yet that they belonged to Joie. And so they didn't share the details of how they found her body. And instead, Leslie found out that her daughter was dead when she saw a newspaper headline, which read Yosemite Naturalist Beheaded.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And she hadn't even known that aspect. And she hadn't even been con... Hadn't even been confirmed to her that it was her daughter's remains.
Em Schulz: I... I... I'm... I can't even imagine how many times she had to reread that until it processed that it was...
Christine Schiefer: Just... And just like that, just, you can't unsee that, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, horrible. So now people of course are questioning like, well, shit. Could that have been the Sightseer Killer back? Like did they arrest the wrong people? Um, it, it's like kind of crazy to think that this is unrelated, this gruesome murder is unrelated to the one that happened a couple months ago. Like clearly they're connected somehow. Um, and if the wrong people were in custody for the first case, that means investigators were basically back to square one with no evidence and no leads. Um.
Em Schulz: And with now several months away from...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: From evidence because now it's all been contaminated.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. So it's been months and they've been eyeing the wrong people. And so it's like, oh, shit. Now they gotta start over. And they're like, you said, like, this person has an advantage.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: However, not for long, because he had not been so careful this time. A witness had actually spotted a vehicle near her remote property at the time of her attack, and they were able to identify the owner of the vehicle. Investigators were, and to their surprise, he worked in maintenance and also lived at the Cedar Lodge where Carole, Silvina and Julie were last seen. So they're like, okay, this is a great connection. And to be clear, they went to pick him up. So this FBI agent Jeff Renick went to, was tasked with picking up this maintenance man, um, to bring him in for questioning. But he was considered a witness because he's not a suspect yet. Somebody just saw his car in the area.
Em Schulz: We're just... We're just here to ask a couple of questions. Just a couple of Qs.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they pick him up as a potential witness, not a suspect. And Jeff located the man, fun fact, at the Laguna Del Sol nudist colony, and basically said, Hey, come with me to the FBI office. We have a few questions. And he's like, I mean, okay, sure. So he gets into the car with the FBI officer or the FBI agent, and, uh, they're just chatting. And Jeff, the, the agent later said, "we were two guys that didn't know each other, that were stuck doing something that we didn't really wanna be doing. And so we were making the best of it. We were just talking amongst us." And this young man starts opening up to Jeff and began speaking about his life. And he said, "you know, I have this, my brother, my younger brother died, um, a few years ago. He had been abducted, I don't know if you've heard of him. His name was Steven Stayner."
Em Schulz: Are you kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: And it turns out the potential witness to Joie's death was Cary Stayner, uh, the oldest, the eldest of the Stayner siblings, um.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Steven's older brother.
Em Schulz: I've literally only... Only I... I almost asked five different times so far. I was like, what does this have to do with Steven Stayner? But I was like, wait for it. Wait for it, wait for it. Wow. Really? Okay. That I see the... Okay. Okay. Okay. Wow. So Cary witnessed... It was the witness.
Christine Schiefer: That they're bringing in. The potential witness.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so they're bringing him in and he's like kind of opening up and he's like, "yeah, you know, my, I don't know if you heard of him. You know, Steven Stayner, that actually was my brother. Um, I'm Cary Stayner." And Jeff, the FBI agent said, like, he said, I genuinely care about people, and like people just grow comfortable talking to me. Like he's just one of those people where he's like, "I'm just not judgemental. And so he just felt comfortable, I guess, to just start chatting." And he asked Cary about Steven's abduction, and Cary told Jeff how little time Kenneth Parnell had served and how unfair that was. And you know, they were just kind of talking back and forth. Jeff really listened Cary and even offered to help him find counseling to process his trauma and his grief. And finally they met, uh, they reached the FBI office, and, uh, Cary met with a couple other FBI investigators, and then he asked to speak with Jeff privately. And so Jeff was like, sure, let's go chat. So they sit down and Cary says, "I'm the one who abducted and murdered Carole, Silvina, Julie and Joie."
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Whoa. Just... Just like that? That's a little too easy.
Christine Schiefer: Just like... Just Like that.
Em Schulz: That feels a little too easy. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: When asked how Jeff got Cary to confess, he said, quote, "it would be a disservice for me to cause people to believe that I did that intentionally. I didn't know what he did. I don't judge people, so when they talk to me, they feel comfortable." So he basically was like, "listen, no pressure whatsoever." And he just said, "I gotta get this off my chest. I'm the one who did it."
Em Schulz: He's just got that gentle spirit...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mh-hmm.
Em Schulz: That just lures you in. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: Okay. What a superpower.
Christine Schiefer: But the fact that Cary, the older brother just admitted to four murders.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like brutal, violent, premeditated murders. Shocking.
Em Schulz: I... I mean, especially, I mean, I guess the only thing we really heard about him when he was, um, when he was younger and dealing with the Steven stuff, the only thing we've really heard was that like, he felt kind of, he, he grew up feeling a level of, uh, unloved or like, he, he didn't get enough, but the time he got with his parents was usurped by the, the grief. And so he never really got a full, the full bond he thought he deserved with his family, so.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Yeah. He felt...
Em Schulz: I could see like the, the psychology kind of working there of like, there's needing control of something.
Christine Schiefer: There's... There's a little... Yeah. There's a little bit of, um, uh, resentment there...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, on the part of all the siblings. And so yeah, you can definitely see kind of a through line there. Um, and I will tell you the... His defense team for sure...
Em Schulz: Used it?
Christine Schiefer: Brought that up a lot. Yeah. Sure.
Em Schulz: I mean, I, I, what I'm thinking more is like those fucking parents, I feel, so, like they already went through...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Trauma, trauma, trauma, and then boom, the one kid who like wasn't causing too much trouble as far as we know, I don't know what he was up to as a kid, but the, but now you got another kid that's like all of a sudden like breaking news.
Christine Schiefer: Like remember, remember when, uh, the police came to their house and knocked on the door and, and they said "What happened to Cary?"
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Because he was off at college and they thought like, maybe something had happened. They said, "no, we found Steven." Like then this guy would grow up to be a serial killer. I mean, it's just, what the fuck is going on?
Em Schulz: The poor parent. I... They have to... When they first found out, I have to ima... Again, I don't like, maybe there was like more to his childhood that we never really talked about yet, but I feel like that mother and father had to look at each other and go, "this can't be happening more to us."
Christine Schiefer: No, this can't happening. It feels like...
Em Schulz: "Please don't make this happen more to us."
Christine Schiefer: No. It's like we've... How much more can there be?
Em Schulz: But like, I, like, I just, I, I, I can't imagine what's going on in their heads. Just reeling, just constant reeling.
Christine Schiefer: And the other siblings, like the younger siblings, like both of our older brothers, you know, I mean, it's just horrible. And so, yeah, basically he just confessed to Jeff. Like, I think he just wanted to get it off his chest. And Steven's children, so this would be Cary Stayner's niece and nephew, Ashley and Steven Jr., they barely knew their uncle, um, because after their father died, they didn't really have much contact with his side of the family growing up.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I guess maybe they were just closer to their mother's side of the family, you know, their father.
Em Schulz: Or could they have sensed so like stay away from Uncle Cary? Like, was there like a thing there?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, they were kids. I think it's just that they just weren't in contact with the paternal family.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so Ashley had been following, that's, uh, Steven's daughter had been following the Yosemite murders on the news for months. And then her family sat her down and said, "that's your uncle who did that." And she was just flabergusted.
Em Schulz: I wouldn't...
Christine Schiefer: How would you... How would you even expect something like that to drop in your lap, you know?
Em Schulz: No. I... There's no... I don't know. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: And so the media immediately linked Cary's crimes, of course, to Steven's stories, you know, the media is just like, "this is our best year ever," right? Like, they're getting just story after story on this case. And so stories covering the murders would begin by calling back to Steven's abduction before then revealing what Cary had done. Which I guess is sort of like how I'm telling the story, right? Like this is just...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A wild sequence of events. Um, one headline for example, read One Brother Saved A Boy, One Brother Killed Four Women. So, you know, this is just being like all over, blasted all over the place.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, it is, it is certainly newsworthy.
Christine Schiefer: It's very sensational, like in and of itself. It doesn't even need to be exaggerated. It's already just out of control, bananas.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And Ashley, Steven's daughter had grown up learning about her late father from other people. And even the miniseries, like she used to watch the miniseries and she always pictured her dad as the actor because she didn't...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. 'Cause she didn't know, she couldn't remember really seeing him. She, she knew the actor version of him better than the real version. Um, and he was a hero of course, and Ashley knew that. But she said in an interview that media coverage of Cary's crimes made her feel like her dad's story was kind of tainted somehow. Like it got wrapped up in, you know, this bigger, worse, horrible thing. And Steven Jr., unfortunately had to avoid school for weeks because he started getting harassed at school. It's like this like ongoing cycle.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. And there is a... Um I mean there're different, different context, but it is interesting how there have b... There have is now two generations of Stevens who can't even go to school without being harassed because of some sort of sensational true crime.
Christine Schiefer: Because of media coverage. I mean for real, it's, it's such a weird cycle. Like I... It's so unheard of I feel like that this... For a such a, for a different thing too.
Em Schulz: And the other, and the other sad thing too, is like I, I would, if I were in that position, if I were Steven Jr., my first thought would be the only person who would know what this is like as my dad, and he's not here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's so true, it's like...
Em Schulz: I just want to talk to someone who gets it.
Christine Schiefer: You're following in his footsteps, but you don't even get to bond with him over it or like seek his guidance or advice or wisdom. Yeah, that's really heartbreak, I hadn't thought about it that way. And so, yeah, it's almost like the cycle repeats itself, he's back at... You know he's avoiding school because his classmates are harassing him about his uncle's crimes, um Ashley stopped talking about their father completely, almost just like didn't wanna even go there with anybody.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And as the case against Cary progressed to trial, the defense team worked to make Cary as sympathetic as possible to avoid the death penalty. According to friends, Cary struggled with anxiety from a young age, even before Steven was ever abducted. He would apparently pull out his hair and would wear hats to school to cover the bald patches that he you know pulled, pulled his hair out.
Em Schulz: Oh my... Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Once Steven disappeared, friends and families said the other Stayner children were kind of left to process their emotions alone without like the guidance from their parents. And there were more problems at home, then Steven's abduction. For example, Cary accused one of his uncles of sexually abusing him when he was young, accusations were raised against his father Del, who allegedly sexually abused uh the sisters, Cary's and Steven's sisters.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: But this is... I don't have any verification of any of this, this is just what's coming out during the defense.
Em Schulz: I... I'm, I'm sure they tried to like bastardize the whole family to be like, well, it's not... You know well, look what happened to him maybe over here, and like...
Christine Schiefer: I know and and they really lean into that to say kind of like he was a... And it's... To be fair, like sure, it's probably true. They argued that he was a victim of multi-generational abuse in the Stayner family, and that his trauma was compounded by Steven's abduction. I certainly don't doubt that, but the prosecution also highlighted Cary's violent ideations, which he described even having as a child. So this has been something kind of percolating in his mind since childhood, um he had often fantasized about torturing and murdering women since childhood.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And the defense argued that Cary needed intervention as a child to be diverted from his violent ideations, but he was failed by his family who was too busy focusing on Steven. But then the judge and the jury were like, I don't know that like you can blame them for not knowing how to intervene in that... For him to uh blame them for him growing up to kill people.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it just seemed like that's a little bit maybe of a stretch, I don't think that the lack of ch-childhood intervention necessarily made him a killer. You know.
Em Schulz: I mean 'cause I feel like that argument could be used for any other...
Christine Schiefer: Oh exactly.
Em Schulz: Family dynamic where like one kid needs more attention than the other. And it's like, "Well, you're the reason I'm a serial killer." What? It's like no...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah and so intervention is such a broad term, it was the '80s. What do you mean? Like intervention, I mean, I'm assuming with a psychologist, remember Del also was very anti-psychiatry so I...
Em Schulz: Yeah and even if he was like, like it was not as common as it is today. Or accepted as it is today.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. A very good point too, I don't think they would have even known what to do.
Em Schulz: But like think of if, if like you've got a like sibling with like additional needs, it's like the siblings of kids with additional needs don't become serial killers, that's not a good argument.
Christine Schiefer: Just, just because of of that like you... Yeah, it's not like... There're not a correlation there. You know what I mean? Or causation, I guess there's not like... Or a correlation.
Em Schulz: And was this with the court... Was this the court's defense or does he truly... Has he like said this himself that's the reason how he turned out this way?
Christine Schiefer: Um. That's just what his defense was saying on his behalf, so I assume that was...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The argument he went with you know, um but forensic psychologist, Louis Schlesinger said of the case that there are many people in the world who do entertain violent fantasies internally, but do not go out and harm people, do not go out and act on them. And he's a grown ass adult.
Em Schulz: Yeah there's a lot of people who don't get attention and aren't killers.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And there are a lot of people who maybe think about it, which is a scary thought, and don't act on it 'cause they know it's not good it's a bad thing to do.
Em Schulz: Well that makes, that makes me even wonder too, because so if his argument is that this was always in him, and like whether or not his brother had his own sensational case, this was just destiny for him, but he was just gonna be a killer.
Christine Schiefer: No. He did not argue that, he did not argue that. He argued... They argued that, oh, he just had... Oh, well, I guess sort of... Yeah, I guess sort of, he argued that it was like all the stress and neglect and abuse that sort of pushed him into this. If that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Gotcha. I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: It was the prosecution that brought up, he had violent thoughts, that was not the defense, the defense did not go there, the prosecution was like, "Oh, he's had violent thoughts forever. This is not new."
Em Schulz: I wonder if... I mean we'll never know like if, if it's true or not, if he had violent thoughts, but if he did while his brother was missing, I wonder if there was something... This is like my like... Whatever like crumbs I have left on my psychology degree kicking in, but I... It's... I wonder if because it happened when he was a certain age, like if it... If he... If this like fascination, like a morbid fascination came with like what could be happening to my brother right now, and like the tru...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah because it's, it's, it's an intense trauma and like to think like, "Oh, my brother was like sexually assaulted by this man," I mean... Yeah, yeah, you're right I'm sure...
Em Schulz: I mean you're at a young age you're forced to think about violence.
Christine Schiefer: You shouldn't be thinking about that. Exactly. You shouldn't have to think about that. That's... Yeah, that's a great point.
Em Schulz: So I wonder if there was something there, but also, I mean I wonder if he was thinking like, like let's say this didn't trigger him having violent thoughts because he was forced to think about like what's happening to his brother, if he already was more inclined to have violent thoughts. I wonder what he was thinking when he found out years later that his brother was alive, being like, "Oh, so you didn't do that," or "Oh, you didn't hurt him enough" or like... I wonder if he was like comparing like notes in his head of what he would have done.
Em Schulz: I don't know, I... It's... We have no idea.
Christine Schiefer: I mean I think he fantasized about hurting women, not men, so I don't know that he would been thinking like... Well I mean I don't know what he was thinking, but um...
Em Schulz: I just wish I had his direct answer, but he would never admit... Obviously, admit to something like that, but... I uh... Yeah, I, I imagine it had to be some-somehow connected to the fact that he was just engulfed in that world from a young age, like... Yeah, that's not anyone's fault he just got sucked into this like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah but so were his sisters. You know. And it's like...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's a great point, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And like Steven was more so than anyone, and he had two kids and just was a living a normal, average, happy life and that was all he wanted. It's like there clearly is something, and I think you're right, it probably was... I don't think it's an easy like nature versus nurture. I think it's just that casual combo of both, that nobody can quite nail down the formula you know of... Well, it's probably, if, if he, if he really had had violent fantasies since chi... Like before Steven was abducted then, yeah, maybe that was compounded by the stress and trauma and just spiraled out of control, right. It seems like it must have been a combination or multi-faceted in some way.
Em Schulz: Wow. Yeah and definitely a plot twist, totally makes sense now why you paired these stories together.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that wild? I mean it just, it feels like too... It feels like stranger than fiction, you know um. And so an investigator on the case, going off of what I just mentioned about the psychologist, the forensic psychologist saying like, "Yeah, well, a lot of people have violent ten... Thoughts and don't act on them."
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Um. And one investigator on the case also said he believes that what makes Cary and serial killers different is that they choose to act knowing they're crossing a line, like they know they're crossing a line, they're not... He's not pleading insanity, he's not saying "I had no idea what was reality", or you know he, he knew he knew he was crossing a line.
Em Schulz: What was the thing he said, um when he admitted, he was like, "Well, I didn't, I didn't mean to hurt them." What was the sentence he said? He said he said something like, "it wasn't intentional." Did he say some... Or is that not him?
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so.
Em Schulz: Okay, maybe I'm just mis-misremembering what happened anyway, sorry, keep going. I keep interrupting you.
Christine Schiefer: Um. No, you're fine. I'm looking back to see... Oh, no, no, no, sorry, the intentional thing was when the FBI agent said "it would be a disservice for me to cause people to believe that I got him to confess intentionally."
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because he didn't want it to come off like he was like manipulating and tricking him, he was just saying, "I'm just a guy that people open up to, I was not trying to push him into confessing."
Em Schulz: Got it, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he said like "it would be a disservice to pretend like I did that on purpose, but I didn't." It was... It was just he wanted to get it off his chest, I guess. Um. And so the night he killed Silvina, Carole and Julie, Em, this guy, he had originally planned to actually kill his girlfriend and her two daughters, that was his original plan.
Em Schulz: Dang. And then it was like too real for him, so he had to do something more removed.
Christine Schiefer: Nope.
Em Schulz: No. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Nope.
Em Schulz: Well, I was thinking he just found exactly the same kind of ages and all that.
Christine Schiefer: Well he did, but the reason he didn't kill his girlfriend and her two daughters is because there was another man present and he missed his window of opportunity, and so he wasn't able to pull it off. So instead, he returned home to Cedar Lodge, where he began looking through the cracks of the hotel room curtains until he...
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Spotted Carole alone with two teenage girls, and that's when he was like, "Oh, perfect a good little replacement."
Em Schulz: He went that matches the story line. Yeah. Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh no, and like so that's, that also is extra creepy as like, I guess it's not really Israel Keyes territory and at random, but it's still like...
Christine Schiefer: It feels wrong place, wrong time, you know, it feels...
Em Schulz: It's like the only reason you were attacked is because you happen to be a...
Christine Schiefer: You matched a certain...
Em Schulz: A women and two girls.
Christine Schiefer: And you happen to stay at this particular cabin where this particular maintenance man wanted to attack a woman and two girls, I mean it's just, it's just...
Em Schulz: Which like and he'd never killed before you'd think he would wanna try with one person first because like three is an ordeal compared to one, and now you don't know what you're doing yet. Now I'm not trying to like make light of it, but like I'm trying to think like wouldn't you want to practice with less. I mean... So I don't know, I'm, I'm trying to like rationalize something that's irrational.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say I don't think there's the same thought process is going on in somebody with this kind of a mindset. You know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um. And so he spotted Carole alone with two teenage girls, so he knocked on their door, told him he needed to do some maintenance because he was the maintenance man at the lodge, so he...
Em Schulz: And, and uh conforming to authority is a very... Unfortunately, natural social thing we all do.
Christine Schiefer: Very natural.
Em Schulz: So if anyone had a ladder, they go, "Okay, well, you can come on in".
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you just have to wear your uniform or your outfit, I mean maybe they've even seen him before, if they've been staying here you know a couple of days. Who knows? Um. And so he knocks on their door, he tells them he needs to do some maintenance in the room, so they let him in. Once inside, he strangled Silvina and Carole, the mom to death, then took Julie, abducted her and murdered her elsewhere.
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Um. He later spotted Joie by chance and decided to murder her on a whim, just like saw her, parked his car, was like...
Em Schulz: He was like on a high from the spree?
Christine Schiefer: I guess. I guess. I mean, that was months later, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah, but I feel like if, if... I mean, again, I don't think this way, but I would...
Christine Schiefer: It's like a fix.
Em Schulz: I have to imagine, yeah, like once you've done it, it's like you got, have to keep the high going or something.
Christine Schiefer: And it's almost like easy peasy, yeah. Like I did it once. And yeah, and so he sees her packing her car for that trip with her friends, and he just... I mean, out of the woods, like I mean that's just horrifying. And so he murdered her just on a whim, and he later said he would have continued killing until he was caught or decided to take his own life. So he just said outright this was what... "I was just gonna be doing this for the rest of my life."
Em Schulz: Hon... I guess snaps for honesty.
Christine Schiefer: Until someone stopped him.
Em Schulz: What? Like I... Like okay, it's weird that he just admits that he's just ruthless and and has there... I mean that's the ultimate thing you could say about no remorse...
Christine Schiefer: I mean he's basically being put on death row. So I don't think that um he has much lev... You know.
Em Schulz: That's still... Like I... Yeah, wow.
Christine Schiefer: And he later sp... And I think a lot of these people, when they talk about these kind of things, they're like, "Yeah, something's wrong with me, I just love to murder pe... " You know what I mean? Like they almost recognize from like a third party perspective, like "weird, there's something fucked up with me."
Em Schulz: Uh. It seems that no one else is doing this which makes me think that there's something going on here.
Christine Schiefer: "Yeah they're really mad at me for this." You know. And it's like, no, he knew he was doing it. He knew he was doing something terrible, so it's like he knows he's not supposed to be doing that and norm... Quote normal people don't do that, so who knows maybe he's just intellectually like kind of like Ed Kemper saying, "You know it's the weird thing I just... "
Em Schulz: To say...
Christine Schiefer: "Never would have stopped."
Em Schulz: To say like, "Oh, I would have just kept doing it," it's just like the ultimate um, um like confirmation of like, I have no remorse or empathy, it's like... 'cause I ju... I don't know how you could do that to somebody and not at least like uh like an ounce of... You go, "I really shouldn't have done that."
Christine Schiefer: Well but don't, but don't, but don't you think like why else would he have confessed so quickly? I just, I wonder, like something must have pushed him to confess. I think he wanted to stop, like that's what I mean is when he says like, "I would have kept going until someone stopped me, or I die, or I ended my own life." Like it seems like he just was like I was either addicted to this or I just couldn't stop myself, it just seems like there's a lack of self-control, I don't know. 'cause like he clearly confessed pretty damn quick.
Em Schulz: Yeah, maybe he was like... I don't know, I mean, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I don't either. I don't either. Um. So ultimately, Cary, was sentenced to prison for life for the murder of Joie Armstrong, and he was then sentenced to death for the murders of Carole and Julie Sund and Silvana Pelosso. He remains on death row to this very day. This is as of September 3rd, uh 2024. The Yosemite National Institute launched a new program called, not new now, but new at the time, program called the Armstrong Scholars named after Joie Armstrong, which seeks to connect women ages 15 to 18 to nature through a 12-day backpacking trip in Yosemite's High Sierra.
Christine Schiefer: And the program states individuals from different cultural, ethnic, racial, religious, LGBTQIA+ and socio-economic communities come together for an expedition of discovery, leadership and personal challenge. There are many ways to identify as a woman, and all of those ways are welcome on this program.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which is really cool. And so you know Joie at least got um that in her honor, and Leslie is very proud that her daughter is still touching lives you know years after she died. And in the wake of this tragedy, the Sunds expected last, last we heard about 3000 people, at the memorial service uh for Carole and Julie, and Silvina's parents came up from Argentina, uh her older sister had to stay back because she couldn't miss school. But the Pelossos uh Silvina's family when they came, um when they came to visit for the memorial, they befriended Carole's parents and they all kind of leaned on each other. Because now Carole's parents had lost their daughter and granddaughter, and the Pelossos had lost their daughter, and so you know um...
Christine Schiefer: Raquel having been friends with Carole, now befriended her parents and her mom, so it's very generational. You know.
Em Schulz: It's very... I mean, I also, I can't imagine being that woman and getting a call thinking like, "Oh, my daughter is just checking in from the States." Snd it's like, actually, everyone you love is dead, like that's...
Christine Schiefer: It's just shocking, it's shocking.
Em Schulz: Uh it's breathtaking.
Christine Schiefer: In the most brutal and horrific... Not an accident. Not a freak accident. You know. And so, yeah, the Pelossos became very close with Carole's parents and they leaned on each other for support as you know having gone through similar uh traumas, and they uh brought Silvina's remains home to Argentina and they were all able to bury their daughters. And uh that is the case of the Stayners, Steven Stayner, Cary Stayner, the Sightseer Murders. And to think like Steven Stayner was killed, so his life was so abruptly cut short, and then his brother lived on and just have this has this terrible legacy, you know it's just... It's just so mind-boggling to me.
Em Schulz: It's... Im I can't imagine the conversations that their parents have had about just like, "What does it all mean?" And like...
Christine Schiefer: And I know, I know.
Em Schulz: Man. Oh my God. Well, I mean, talk about plot twist after plot twist after plot twist. That was...
Christine Schiefer: Seriously. Also I'm gonna send you the Cary Stayner mugshot, it's like one of the scariest mugshots ever. He's...
Em Schulz: Really okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's very frightening. He's also known as the Yosemite Park Killer, which like imagine you have one kid who's abducted and becomes this international superstar like on all the talk shows, and then your other son becomes a literal named seri... The Yosemite Killer with his on Wikipedia page.
Em Schulz: I, I... Yeah. But I, I can also see the narcissism situation again, because it's just like, "Oh, so my brother got all the attention, it's like... "
Christine Schiefer: It's not... Right.
Em Schulz: Now, I need the attention, I don't care how I get it or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Like...
Christine Schiefer: Here, he said, "I wish I could take it back, but I can't. I wish I could tell you why I did such a thing, but I don't even know myself." That's where I kinda got into that weird like intellectualizing it like Ed Kemper does. Like, "I think I have mommy issues" It's like, oh yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like "Yeah you do."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm interesting. Uh. He said, "I wish I could tell you why I did such a thing. But I don't even know myself, I'm so sorry. I wish there was a reason, but there isn't. It's senseless."
Em Schulz: Wow. At least he knows it. Um I...
Christine Schiefer: And Jo, Joie's mother believed that his apology was genuine. She, she believed what he said.
Em Schulz: Good for Joie's mom. That's... I can't... I mean I guess at that point, all you have left is like, "Do you wanna sit with this for the rest of your life or not?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. I mean I guess the only silver lining is like at least Steven wasn't alive to see this, happen.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I, I thought the same thing, but you know he could have probably helped his kids through it, like you said, which is just so tragic that he wasn't there.
Em Schulz: I, I would be fascinated to hear what he would have to say about this if he found out his own brother was also someone to be scared of.
Christine Schiefer: And just to even see like here I'm sending a picture of them hugging like when they got reunited, it's just so trippy to be like, "Oh, these are the two... " And then how things just went so wrong, you know, um...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And when they made that TV movie and they like focused on Cary's struggles in the house, and of course they wouldn't know for decades what he would become or what he would do it's just so chilling. Imagine having played Cary in the, in the show you know and then like learning what the guy did that you were trying to embody that whole time.
Em Schulz: I, I mean, I'm absolutely reading into this, but this picture of the, the two brothers hugging, I'm totally reading into this, but it does look like he's not giving that intense of a hug for someone whose brother went missing for a very long time. And like we all thought was dead. So uh in my head, now that I know the story, I'm like, Oh, maybe it was always in him, but I'm totally like...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Making that up.
Christine Schiefer: I do not trust the media on that. If there's a... After the whole um... What's her name? Um. Amanda Knox, where the photos got taken totally out of context and she was basically put in Italian jail, I mean, I don't trust...
Em Schulz: Yeah exactly. That's why I'm like I'm very aware that I'm putting my own thoughts onto the picture.
Christine Schiefer: However, the mugshot, knowing what he has done with those, seen and done those eyes, ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah the mugshot's pretty wild. Um. Man, you really know how to tell a story, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well, thank you so much. Um. Yeah, it's a doosie huh?
Em Schulz: Sure is. Um.
Christine Schiefer: What you wanna do in uh the uh the... What's it called?
Em Schulz: Yappy hour.
Christine Schiefer: Yappy hour.
Em Schulz: I don't know um uh... I can, I can find something. I'm sure I'll, I'll figure it out. Maybe we tell secrets.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh. I love to tell secrets.
Em Schulz: If you'd like to hear our secrets, you can come over to you Yappy Hour, um... You'll need something to recover from that two parter. Oh my gosh, that was very obviously a terrible story, but also very juicy and like the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I mean, it's, it's...
Em Schulz: Whatever I can mean it.
Christine Schiefer: It keeps, keeps you on your toes. You know.
Em Schulz: Uh. I love how when I compliment uh, you telling a story every time it keeps you on your toes.
Christine Schiefer: Is that what I said?
Em Schulz: You say pretty often, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, really? Yeah, well, this one for sure did, 'cause I...
Em Schulz: I'm certainly on my toes. So you're not wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh. Wow, well, and what would... This comes out later this week. Huh?
Christine Schiefer: Um, I have no idea.
Em Schulz: Or is it next week? At some point, this is uh... It's either this week coming up or the week after.
Christine Schiefer: Oh two weeks, it's... This comes out after our first teach us... Em, I'm gonna throw up. Em...
Em Schulz: Our first shows.
Christine Schiefer: We can't do, Yappy Hour I have to prepare I'm so stressed. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh it's like I... We're actually... Like I actually am, I just started yesterday taking um... I started microdosing Xanax, so um we'll...
Christine Schiefer: I... Oh, that's so weird 'cause I started macrodosing klonopine.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No. We are, we are at threat level midnight folks, so we will um... When... By the time you've heard this, it will have been figured out. Which is very comforting to know.
Christine Schiefer: I hope so. It better be, but I may have lost more of my sanity and skin from scratching my hives.
Em Schulz: No by this time... By the time you hear this currently, our voices, our voices that are in the past, when you hear this are very scared. But the reality of when this airs, imagine the relief we're gonna have. It's gonna be, it's gonna be fine.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: I mean I just can't, I can't even fathom that we'll get it. I mean I know we'll get it...
Em Schulz: We will, we will. I'm, I'm very confident we will.
Christine Schiefer: As everyone says including me we always do, it's just like...
Em Schulz: We always do.
Christine Schiefer: It just somehow seems so insurmountable you know.
Em Schulz: I totally understand.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I'm sure if anybody does it's you.
Em Schulz: Yeah I'm right here with you, I'm right here with you. But no, it will be figured out that's the best part. So uh...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Anyway. If you'd like to see over at Yappy Hour crying you can.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh and go say congrats to Eva on, on, on social meds on wherever Instagram. She posted cutest pictures ever um...
Em Schulz: She's the bride, clink, clink, clink.
Christine Schiefer: Yay. Even though we didn't invite her to this recording that's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
