Transcript
[intro music]
Em Schulz: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. How is everyone's day going? Hmm. Me thinks it's going good, bad, or indifferent? Can you agree, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And...
Em Schulz: And?
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: How's your... [laughter] Why we drink the end goodbye.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. That's a sleeper agent moment where if anyone says, and I'm like, that's...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine on...
Christine Schiefer: I was, I thought you were trying to do some improv with me, so I said yes. And, and then I could not think of literally one more thing because...
Em Schulz: Shall we start... Speaking of improv, shall we start with a mind meld?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah. Sorry. I shouted so loud I heard it in my own ears.
Em Schulz: Nothing gets Christine going like a mind meld.
Christine Schiefer: No, it doesn't. [laughter] Okay. So uh we do 3, 2, 1, go. Although there is a lag, so it's gonna be awkward, but we could try.
Em Schulz: Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Uh. All right. 3, 2, 1. Lobster.
Em Schulz: Hamburger. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. We gotta simplify it. Uh. Oh God. It's harder than it sounds. Okay. 3, 2, 1, dinner.
Em Schulz: Food.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was like, it was like, do food or dinner and I was like, Emma, I'll probably say dinner. Dammit. Dinner and food. Okay. Okay, I got it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 3, 2, 1. Restaurant.
Em Schulz: Restaurant. See, we got it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Wait. Now, now on restaurant. This is a bonus point.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh. What? I don't know this game.
Christine Schiefer: On the word being, both of us said restaurant.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Now we have to say the same word next. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What? Oh my God. We're not gonna get this right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Think.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Look at, look at me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know it?
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Damn it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, we'll try. Okay. And if not, then I'll just edit you out and put uh Microsoft, Sam saying it underneath. So.
Em Schulz: That's fine. That's fine.
Christine Schiefer: 3, 2, 1. Cheesecake Factory.
Em Schulz: Cheesecake Factory.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank God. Okay. I was like, tell me, you know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: For a second. I was gonna say Rainforest Cafe, but I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's a good guess.
Em Schulz: I don't know why.
Christine Schiefer: No, that's more you and Eva's thing. 'cause I've never been to one. So, um but Cheesecake, Cheesecake Factory is uh is the correct answer. So thank God Microsoft Sam didn't have to step in.
Em Schulz: I will... It will become my personal goal on the tour. I'm gonna get you fucked up at a Rainforest Cafe at some point we have to find one.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Twist my arm why don't you, it's, it's a dream. I would love... Em if you did that for me I would marry you in a Rainforest Cafe.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: In the, I would marry you inside the hurricane on the rainforest.
Em Schulz: We'll kiss under the elephants. That's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I hear they're very dusty. My brother and I did reviews of Rainforest Cafes and I hear that they're very dusty.
Em Schulz: They are. I told you, uh, the last time I was in a Rainforest Cafe, I was at the Mall of America. And it was when Allison was in the literal rainforest. And I was like, I think I went, because mine has air conditioning and um food just appeared in front of me. It's very nice.
Christine Schiefer: You get a front row seat to like wildlife.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Dinner and show...
Christine Schiefer: In air quotes? Yeah. You get a hurricane happening right in front of you. No spiders?
Em Schulz: I, I... The way that I'm obsessed with Rainforest Cafe and I don't feel like this is that far of a, a... This isn't like that intense of a goal. Apparently there's only like 40 left in the country. I'm like, I think I could go to all 40. [laughter] That'd be a fun.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I was like, are you gonna open the 41st one? Is that what you're saying?
Em Schulz: No, I feel like that's an easy bucket list is like, oh, we travel so often. I could probably hit a bunch of 'em.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I just remembered, somebody gave me, mailed me after we did the R-Rainforest Cafe on Beach Too Sandy. Somebody mailed me a Rainforest Cafe um mug with my name on it. And like some other things, like they got me merch. And so now I feel kind of like a fraud because I'm like, I feel like, and for all you rainforest aficionado I said fraud not frog. Although I know, they're probably really close when we're talking about Rainforest Cafe.
Em Schulz: They are.
Christine Schiefer: Um. But yeah, I feel like a fraud. 'cause I've never actually been to one, so I'm like, I should go and maybe I'll join you on your cool mission. Um.
Em Schulz: I... That's fine. Yeah. If you could be a, you could be a guest feature at one of them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe I'll just like film the whole thing. You know I'll be your your documentarian.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's, yeah, I would love that. I'd love nothing more.
Christine Schiefer: Fantastic. Okay.
Em Schulz: Um. Okay. Just like, imagine like Chili's, but animatronics. Like if Chuck E. Cheese and Chili's had a baby, that's kind of it.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. That's, yeah, that's what I've heard. And it also is like tropical rainforest themed.
Em Schulz: It's a 360 degree immersive experience. Um.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Well, when you put it that way.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just gonna tell you. Uh. Okay. Well anyway, what a great start to this, Christine. Hi. How are you? Why do you drink? What do you drink uh on this fine day?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I'm so glad you asked. So I have my, I do have water today for once because, um I I just knew eventually I should probably start drinking water. And I also brought my iced coffee that I made downstairs and I brought it in my cup that I, I had a phase where I kept buying kind of pink to purpley blue, uh ombre items. And then one day, I think it was you and or Xandy, probably both of you said, "oh, I like that you're buying all this bisexual stuff lately."
Em Schulz: That was me.
Christine Schiefer: And I went, oh.
Em Schulz: I went, "are you telling us something?"
Christine Schiefer: Well, I kept being like, "this is my favorite colors." And everyone's like, "no, that's what, you're such a weirdo." Anyway, so this is called, so I bought this. And then one day you were like, "oh, I love your bisexual cup." And I went, "oh my God, how fun." So anyway, uh I do like it now because I didn't even, I bought it like, sort of in a Freudian manner. You know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It sounds as if you, uh part of you knew what was going on maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think I knew, I think everyone else knew, but I think I figured it out eventually. Why, why do you drink and why? Oh, I didn't even say why a drink. Maybe 'cause I didn't know I was bi.
Em Schulz: 'Cause you're a big fat bisexual.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause. Yeah, there we go. That's why.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, someone said, um I got another, I got yelled at by another listener, um in my DMs, and they said that I bully you for being bisexual. Um.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And they said that I am being biphobic. So um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You are.
Em Schulz: Happily, I'm okay with that. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: What I didn't say is when Em saw my cup, they said, "what a fucking fugly, bisexual cup you have."
Em Schulz: I actually said, "you don't deserve any fucking rights." Actually. Um.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. Yeah. No, I, I feel like sometimes our jokes maybe don't land or they sound harsher than they mean to be. But it's because um...
Em Schulz: I mean you try working with this person.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Exactly. I mean exactly like that says all it needs to know, especially when we're up at like 4:00 AM trying to like get to the bottom of a joke that's not even funny. And we're like trying to write it into a script and like basically crying. It's like at a certain point, like bullying just, it has to be part of the formula between us.
Em Schulz: It's part of the 360 degree immersive experience, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: It sure is. In fact, it's weird how I'm always the first one to kind of really get my, get my experience Em.
Em Schulz: Isn't it fun?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, um anyway, uh congratulations on being bi.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Oh, are you talking to that person? That listener also to them.
Em Schulz: I was really rooting for you 'cause when we started out, when it was you, me and Eva, I was the only queer person here. And all of you have really uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's actually incredible.
Em Schulz: You've really joined the winning team. I'm glad it took a while, but you got here, so.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. It took a lot of like, um subconscious purchases from, from like conglomerate companies for me to realize who I was.
Em Schulz: You go to enough bookstores with a, with a queer ally section and it just, it's gonna suck you right in.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, sorry Conservatives. It's only a matter of time.
Em Schulz: It's the, the agenda. You know. It's the agenda.
Christine Schiefer: It's coming for you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um. Hmm. Why do I drink? I drink an LD today. Uh. But I do think in between our stories, Christine, I might switch over to a D Peppy.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so happy you said that. 'Cause I might switch over to a Miller Lite.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I brought one up alongside my coffee and I thought, which one shall I choose. And then I realized I was...
Em Schulz: Sounds like a gross combo.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like, well, okay. That's why I said which one should I choose? Not both. So, uh, I need to caffeinate first, but then after, after your story, I'll take a little sippy sip and uh, it'll get me, you know, ready to go for, for my fucked up side of the story.
Em Schulz: That's why I gotta go to D Pep. I was like, water isn't gonna cut this so.
Christine Schiefer: It's not gonna cut it, no. We need a little something stronger to get through the end.
Em Schulz: Well actually I, I, I know you have to drink your coffee first. I'm gonna pretend you've already switched over to your Miller Lite because I have a saloon story for you today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay. Wow. You know I love a saloon.
Em Schulz: Before we get into it, everyone is, has been reaching out that they hope this does not die. So I'm going to make sure I say it. A quick reminder to everybody to please drink some water you thirsty little rats. Especially the bisexual ones. 'Cause y'all are just deserts in your body. You forget to drink water all the time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah you... I know you listening out there. I know you don't drink enough water. Okay. And you know who you are.
Em Schulz: I can see you. Look at you. You're literally driving in the car right now and your full water cup is not being touched as insane.
Christine Schiefer: Do you see me? I'm looking at you. Yeah, that's me.
Em Schulz: Just grab it.
Christine Schiefer: Wave to me.
Em Schulz: Just. You don't even have to drink it. Just grab it. Just kidding. Now that you're grabbing it, you should probably drink it. Um. So...
Christine Schiefer: Drink it.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Drink it now. But put both hands on the wheel. Yep. That's...
Em Schulz: And... Oh yeah, hang on. Also, uh someone said, I guess in the last, one of the last episodes I said something about and also take your meds. And a lot of people with ADHD came forward and said that that was actually the reminder they needed. So take your meds please. Thank you so much.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I love that. You know what I do? I, I have to eat. I made myself eat with my meds because I'm like, oh, when I'm hungry. No, no, you can't have breakfast. Go get your meds first. And it's like my little rule. I like, what is it called? Like stacking or like habit... Habit stacking? I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't know if what the actual phrase for it is, but I do the same thing where I treat it like like breakfast is a reward. It's like I have to do this. And then I get funnel...
Christine Schiefer: It's like you can't do one without the other.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's exactly right. Well, I took my meds and I was, I didn't let myself drink anything until I took my meds. I was like, I'll take my meds with, that'll be my first sip today. And then, so my meds have been taken at the, at the early crack of an LD. Another one was...
Christine Schiefer: I thought you said the crack of dawn. I was like, it is 11:00 AM where you are, but okay. Nice try.
Em Schulz: Early for me. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[pause]
Em Schulz: Okay, so we're talking about a saloon today. This is the Red Onion Saloon, which love that it's...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." You know, we need merch from that.
Em Schulz: Oh, they have a shop on their website, don't worry.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they still exist. Oh, Em I thought they...
Em Schulz: Oh very much.
Christine Schiefer: Were like didn't exist and I was gonna have to get my Cricut machine out again, but I'm delighted.
Em Schulz: It's a haunted saloon that has always been a, well not always been a saloon, but it started as a saloon and has been, um what's it when they, when they after so many years it's been brought back to its original.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's been like restored.
Em Schulz: Restored as the saloon. It once was. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, how cool.
Em Schulz: Um. And they do have merch and they have one of those zip ups I know you like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I meant to say. Oh yeah, I meant to say too. Um. I know I texted you, Em. 'Cause I was like dying laughing, but I got the Okay Corral merch you sent as a birthday gift. Uh.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. That was months ago.
Christine Schiefer: And literally I sent you the note, but like the guy, and you can tell when, you know, when someone has like kind of older senior like writing where they like learn cursive in a specific way. He, and it's kind of wobbly. And he wrote like processed August, uh whatever. And he wrote, so sorry, like, been waiting for this to get into stock for months. And so, and then it said like a June order date or something. And I was like, "oh my Lord, I got my birthday." 'Cause then I was like, well, I know Em covered this. And then I like looked in our search thing and I realized it was our birthday episode and I went, "oh, this is real late. This is like three months late."
Em Schulz: I remember I, I looked up, when I was doing your birthday episode, I remember looking up something and there was merch and I was like, oh, since it's our birthday episode, of course I'll get it for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I just was like, "yeah, totally." And then like, never thought about it. And he, because of the delay, he was so kind. Uh. He's the manager. I forget his name, but uh he included a little shot glass with the Okay Corral on it. I was like, oh, hell yeah. So, um, it was he was...
Em Schulz: He's, he's a good man.
Christine Schiefer: Good service, yes. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Um. Well good, I'm glad you finally have it.
Christine Schiefer: So Red Onion merch next. Okay.
Em Schulz: The Red Onion Saloon. If you're listening, Christine loves zip up sweatshirts. She is size large, so.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Oh, hey, anybody listening? No, I'm kidding.
Em Schulz: Just, I'm just throwing it out there because I I know how much it would uh, you know, so it'd be a fun little surprise, so.
Christine Schiefer: Would just elevate my day, you know.
Em Schulz: It'll elevate your wardrobe. Let's be clear.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well, we need and we need it. I need it.
Em Schulz: So the Red Onion saloon, my other favorite thing about this is that it is in Alaska. And here's the reason why I love it. I'm trying, by the time I'm 35, I wanna have gone to every state, and I think I only have like 10 left. So I feel like in two years I could do five trips each.
Christine Schiefer: I listen are we...
Em Schulz: And then on my 35th... What?
Christine Schiefer: As your manager here, as your, as you uh acting manager in this moment. Are we, is there a timeline on the Rainforest Cafe list? Because I feel like that could get in the way if you're trying to reach all the states by 35 and you're also trying to hit all 40, we could either merge them and do a map like layover where all the, uh Rainforest Cafes are. You could kind of knock some out, you know, in one fell swoop.
Em Schulz: I do think the priority Rainforest Cafes are the ones in the states I have yet to go to.
Christine Schiefer: That's what, yeah, that's what I mean. So the one, we'll put a map map over it, so we'll be like...
Em Schulz: We'll go, we'll go there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, you go to that Rainforest Cafe, we'll drop the copter right down into the jungle. You get it. And then we scoop you back up. You've, you've been to Nebraska, congratulations.
Em Schulz: So you finance and um figure out all the logistics for that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, already did. Uh. They're on the way.
Em Schulz: Did you say something about a chopper like a helicopter at some point?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I meant to say chopper. I... Copter is what I said. That's not a thing. I don't know why I said that. Chopper, your way down into the jungle of, uh Nebraska.
Em Schulz: I, you know, actually Nebraska is on the list, and, uh actually I am, I have already figured out on our tour this year, I'm gonna go to Nebraska.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: Fun fact, I'm gonna...
Christine Schiefer: 'cause we're in Kansas, is that close? No. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Is it... We're going somewhere that is near Omaha. Relatively near Omaha. So I'm gonna do like a two day thing in Omaha afterwards.
Christine Schiefer: Fun.
Em Schulz: I tried looking up, like I, I have a friend who is from Nebraska and I was like, what's the best place to go? And then I think maybe she has like, a love hate relationship with it Nebraska and wasn't very helpful. Um. So I'm just gonna have to wing it. So anyway, I will be in Nebraska at some point this year, so that's one off the list. If there is a Rainforest Cafe there, which I do not think there is.
Christine Schiefer: I'm Googling it. Shh. I'm Googling it. Oh. Damn it.
Em Schulz: Okay. I don't think there is one.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Hey, hey, hey. There's something called the Rainforest Treetop Cafe.
Em Schulz: Okay, well then I'll go there.
Christine Schiefer: Is that the same? I don't know.
Em Schulz: I... It is not the same. But it sounds lovely if it's a treetop cafe that I imagine that's like a really wonderful view. So.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no. I wanna put you in a Rainforest Cafe.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This isn't about a view Em. This is about completing the list.
Em Schulz: I see. Okay. Well, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, go ahead.
Em Schulz: If you find one in Alaska, make that obvious. So, okay. The reason that I'm stoked that this is an Al... An Alaska story, is 'cause I would like my final state that I have to go to, I would like to create a trip for myself as my gift on my 35th birthday of like, you did it on your 35th. By the time you were 35. And so uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's cool.
Em Schulz: I'm feeling like that one's gonna be Alaska. 'cause that feels like the most difficult one to get to.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That feels like the most out of the, out of the way one.
Em Schulz: That one feels deserving of like a 35th birthday.
Christine Schiefer: A finale. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. And Alaska's the one I'm most excited for. So.
Christine Schiefer: And you've been to Hawaii?
Em Schulz: Uh I, I went as a baby, and my goal is really to go to...
Christine Schiefer: Experience.
Em Schulz: I would like to go to every state and like have multiple days there where I'm experiencing it.
Christine Schiefer: Not just in the an airport.
Em Schulz: I'm current... Yeah. I'm currently not touching Hawaii. Um. But one day I would like to. It's, it's on a bucket list, but right now I've got other places I'm prioritizing. In Alaska, I would like to be my final place, so.
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: Um. Yeah, so I, I but I went, when I was like three months old though. It was, my first flight was to Hawaii, actually. My first airplane ride.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Was to Hawaii.
Christine Schiefer: I was about to say, maybe what, so what would you do, say if Andrew our tour manager booked us a show in Anchorage? Would you have to can... Would you say, "no, I can't do it. I'm saving Alaska for, I'm saving myself. I'm saving myself for Alaska, Andrew."
Em Schulz: I'm, I, I'm pure. I'm pure here.
Christine Schiefer: I am.
Em Schulz: Um. I would still do it. I would just, I guess I would just find it, I would just make my 35th birthday a different location, Probably.
Christine Schiefer: Nebraska.
Em Schulz: Alaska, Nebraska, kinda the same thing.
Christine Schiefer: Same difference.
Em Schulz: Um. No, I, well, the, I don't know. I mean, Alaska's pretty fucking big. I could probably figure out a new, another location if I...
Christine Schiefer: I think so. I think so. Or they have really, my dad took a very fucking expensive ass cruise out of Alaska. He'd never been on a cruise as in a whole life. Then he finds one that's like all she, she fancy and he's like, I guess I'll go on a cruise. And I was like, okay. But um he went out from Alaska and they had the most beautiful, like, talk about views.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We can do that.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well then good to know. I'll take a cruise also.
Christine Schiefer: And that'll be my first cruise. I've never been on a cruise. Maybe I'll come with you for the 35th.
Em Schulz: That's true. You, we could be on the same one that your dad went on. Maybe there's some points to add there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Maybe we'll become billionaires by then. No.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well, wow just really saying anything now. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No. What I'm saying is that the cruise he went on is fucking expensive and we don't have the money for it. So I said, yeah, maybe we'll make a fucking bunch of money and then be able to afford the cruise my dad went on. Not that he... I see. I see. I wanna be clear, my father's not a billionaire. I would probably be going on cruises like that if my father were a billionaire. Um. Anyway, sorry. Just got way outta hand.
Em Schulz: I... Anyway. This is in Alaska. Okay. The Red Onion Saloon is in Skagway, Alaska. Um. Which up until doing this research, research, I always thought there was another A in Skagway. I thought it was Skagaway whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well, you were wrong.
Em Schulz: Fun fact. It's not, maybe 'cause I was thinking of Alaska that has the a in the middle, but, okay. So, um, it's 1898 and The Red Onion Saloon is built by the founder of Skagway. Um. And his name is Captain William Moore, who cut the wooden planks for the building himself. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: He wasn't just founding places, he was literally building them brick by brick.
Christine Schiefer: Getting his hands dirty, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, he's, he's one of us. One of us, you know.
Christine Schiefer: He's like Joe Biden from Delaware who grew up in middle class. Or whatever he always says.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Speaking of Delaware, that's another place I gotta go.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Listen, the list is getting clearer and clearer by the minute.
Em Schulz: So, uh yeah. So it was built in 1898. It was a very popular saloon in and dance hall. It was actually the best in town. It was like the classiest saloon and dance hall, uh in the area, which I don't know what was going on in Skagway, Alaska in 1898.
Christine Schiefer: Oh listen, I was waiting for you to say it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Comparison wise, I will say, um a little quick thing about the history in a second, but it was apparently the classiest saloon best dance hall. It was also the most eleg, not, what was the word? Elegance, most elegant brothel.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: In the area.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So I don't know how classy you can be when there's also a brothel up there, but maybe that was like what class looked like in the back then?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. In the day I feel like that, you know, it's more like a gentleman's club.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Get all your needs met, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. So as when I was like, I don't know how many bars there were at the time in Skagway, Alaska in 1898, I kind of do know a little bit because I looked it up.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So it was obviously very popular as a brothel, and most of the clientele were local gold miners because, um at this point in time, the gold rush had started. And I, I'm always thinking about the California gold rush, but there was also, at the same time, the, or same time the 1890s was the California Gold Rush, right.
Christine Schiefer: 1849.
Em Schulz: '40s, 1840s.
Christine Schiefer: That's, they're called the 49ers.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Duh, so in 1898 was the Klondike Gold Rush.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure. Okay.
Em Schulz: And so a bunch of gold miners showed up in the area and since all of a sudden a bunch of people were moving into the area, a bunch of bars start opening. So there was some competition and it was still considered the best probably because there were naked women upstairs.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like. I was gonna say it's always like, oh, immediately let's put bar and ladies in like these old towns where it's like, oh, there's men coming in. Well guess what we gotta supply.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. And uh yeah, with an influx of people like that, it was very smart to put businesses in like that. It was also because there was an influx of people. There was also an influx of some rabble rousers. And the area was a bit of...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." You don't say.
Em Schulz: A lawless land, you know, I know Christine loves a lawless land.
Christine Schiefer: So listen. It just gets me a little hot and bothered. It's fine. Don't worry about it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was actually once described a Skagway Alaska in this time period was once described as a little better than hell on Earth.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, [laughter] count me in.
Em Schulz: Especially because there, there wasn't like cowboy lawless land, it was more like mafia lawless land, like gangsters.
Christine Schiefer: Oh dear. Okay. A little out of my depth on that one then.
Em Schulz: The main gangster in town was of course, say it with me, Soapy Smith.
Christine Schiefer: Soapy Smith. Sure. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And he controlled...
Christine Schiefer: Mind meld Soapy Smith. Ready? [laughter] Cheesecake Factory. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Mr. Bubble. Yeah. Um. So Soapy Smith, he controlled pretty much the entire town. He had a lot of police under his thumb. He had the newspaper under his thumb. He was in charge of kind of all the nefarious things. All the ill repute was, he was somehow attached to all that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that feels right though. With a name like Soapy, like it sounds like a, like a, like tiny, you know? And then it's this huge guy, you know how they do sometimes opposite names like a guy named Soapy. You'd be like, oh, that's funny. And then you'd get like fucking...
Em Schulz: I'm not as clean as you think you know.
Christine Schiefer: Your head chopped off for making fun of his name or something. You know?
Em Schulz: Exactly. Like, I'm sure you couldn't even say his name and...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And then it would, it'd be done for you.
Christine Schiefer: If you say it three times the mirror, the shaving cream and your mirror starts soaping up.
Em Schulz: The suds just come outta your eyes. [laughter] So, uh just to give you an idea of the influx of people that showed up, because of the gold rush at this time. There were about, a during once, like the, the peak of the gold rush. There was about 100,000 new miners that came into the Klondike area.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And at the time, uh Skagway originally only had a couple hundred people in the area and now it had over 30,000 people living in this town.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. Okay.
Em Schulz: And only 8% of that population was women.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: So.
Christine Schiefer: Sausage par... Sausage fest.
Em Schulz: Sausage fest. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't even know how to say it. That's so embarrassing. I am constantly embarrassing myself with the use of...
Em Schulz: Penis party.
Christine Schiefer: Penis party. Um, English is not my first language in case anyone's forgotten. So don't...
Em Schulz: I said something recently too. I said something to um, Allison recently, 'cause we were trying to figure out curtains for one of those, these windows. And at our last place, we really struggled with putting curtains up 'cause the drywall was so thin. And so I was trying to say, "Oh, remember our last curtain fiasco and I could not remember the word fiasco to save my life." I kept saying curtain...
Christine Schiefer: I hate when that happens.
Em Schulz: I kept saying curtain fiesta. And I was like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I was like, well, you remember the curtain fiesta? And Allison was like, "what the fuck are you talking about?"
Christine Schiefer: She's like are you sleepwalking? What's going on?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That sounds like something you would say like just in, in your sleep. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Uh. Anyway, we've only lived here.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: We haven't lived here for that long, but curtain fiesta has become quite a regular statement, so...
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait to be invited to the next one.
Em Schulz: The next curtain fiesta. Yeah. I'll let you know.
Christine Schiefer: I'll bring my stapler to make sure your curtains stay up this time.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Only fiestas over here.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, so yeah, only 8% of over 30,000 people were women. So slim pickin's for men. But also that meant the women, there was very few women and they were... All 8% of them were probably at some point, you know, getting hit on and...
Christine Schiefer: Objectified.
Em Schulz: Catcalled and all this.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like the second you see a woman in a town with only 8% women, I'm sure they're just getting totally mauled.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, plus at this time, there weren't many jobs women could do, first of all at all. And second of all, do and get paid well. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Oh right. Fair. To make a living. Sure.
Em Schulz: So sex work was an easy option a lot of times.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And I think a lot of women would even come to this area knowing that it was slim pickings and that they would definitely make money.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then when they made enough, they could just leave.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it was just a high turnover rate of sex work here.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, in Skagway alone there were 300 women regularly serving men, passing through.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And many of that, of those services happened at the Red Onion Saloon. So, um, the first floor way... Of the Red Onion Saloon was the saloon and dancehall itself. The second floor was the brothel. Is brothel the appropriate, should I be saying like bordello, like, what's the word I should be saying?
Christine Schiefer: I think brothel's okay. I mean, I think it's an outdated term, but that's just because it's an old concept...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know if there's...
Christine Schiefer: Not a concept.
Em Schulz: No one's brought up a new.
Christine Schiefer: But you know what I mean. Yeah. I, I, I feel like that's just kind of an old timey word, but, umm, I can look up if it's, uh, you know.
Em Schulz: I don't think it's offensive.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so.
Em Schulz: I just don't if there's a better one, but anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Let's say brothel probably.
Em Schulz: I think brothel's fine. Umm, red light district.
Christine Schiefer: I mean especially when we're talking about like sex work from back then when it was considered a brothel, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like now, like, well back then...
Em Schulz: Then it was called like...
Christine Schiefer: And going to the house of ill repute. But like, uh, you know, back then, I think it's probably fair.
Em Schulz: A lot of the blogs I saw were definitely using older terminology and they were like the whorehouse and I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Ah yeah, the whorehouse. Yeah, yikes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's when it gets like, well, let's rethink that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, umm, okay, so the first floor was the saloon dance hall. Second floor was the brothel. And on the second floor, there were 10 rooms. They were called cribs, which yuck that we were infantilizing it from the beginning in 1898.
Christine Schiefer: It's kind of creepy.
Em Schulz: Umm, but maybe crib was just another word for room back then but...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, we say crib, like, welcome to my crib.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's true. That's true. I think I'm just conflating it and I'm like, ugh, we can just call it a fucking room.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't feel right, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Uh, and so there were 10 cribs used by the working ladies and to pay for their services, men had to pay... Do you wanna guess how much money people paid in eight, nine 1898?
Christine Schiefer: For a sex worker in...
Em Schulz: For 15 minutes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, $2.
Em Schulz: $5.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I dunno. I don't know why I say, wow. I don't like, I have no concept of what it would've been. Umm...
Em Schulz: Although I feel like if they were gold miners, you could just kind of like flip 'em a nugget and be like, you know where this...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just like five nuggets.
Em Schulz: You know what to do with this.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man.
Em Schulz: So, umm, it was $5 for 15 minutes and the women got 1.25 of the cut.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Of the $5. Umm, and 1.25 at the, I looked up. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: I did not put it in here at some point.
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I didn't look up what, 1.25, like, how much that would be today. But I did look up the, like average wage of women at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: And the, the best wages that women made in the 1898 in that area was like $3 max. That was like, you've got it made is $3.
Christine Schiefer: For for how much? For what day? For a day or for a month or a year?
Em Schulz: No, no, no. In just in general a woman's wage. If they did any work, if they made, uh, if they made I guess $3 a day, then that was like considered good money.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Got it.
Em Schulz: So the fact that these women were making 1.25 was...
Christine Schiefer: Uh 15 minutes... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Kind of. Uh, yeah. For 15 sec... 15 minutes and you could add up.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: How... So they were making pretty good money.
Christine Schiefer: I understood. Okay, cool.
Em Schulz: Umm, I'm thinking, I think it was $3 a day. Now, I've twisted my own words, but 1.25 was not a, a bad thing or a bad deal, right? And it was...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. And it sounds, I mean, for that time it sounds like a good chunk of change for a woman to be making. I mean, unfortunately.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it was, umm, uh, so it was $5, but 25% went to, uh, the, they had a bouncer, like a security to make sure that they were kicking men out if they tried to overstay their welcome.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. You gotta pay that person.
Em Schulz: And then, uh, like half of it went to the madam who was orchestrating all this.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So, umm, 1.25 was a pretty good deal.
Christine Schiefer: And then, and then the rest went to the Giant Red Onion that ruled over all...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They had to make their sacrifice every day.
Em Schulz: Well, I, I, I thought I put it in here somewhere, but I guess I didn't, that I must, I must have put it somewhere. I'll find it and then I'll go, oh, I already said that. But I also did the math of if they're doing 1.25 for every 15 minutes and they were expected to do a 12-hour shift, then...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: That means that in one day, they could sleep with up to almost 50 men. It'd be 48, 48, 15 minutes...
Christine Schiefer: But I'm sure they're not like 15, 15, 15, 15. Right? Like you'd have to like get cleaned up and like get...
Em Schulz: You have to like take a break. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Go have lunch.
Christine Schiefer: I imagine probably like one an hour or something.
Em Schulz: Maybe. I don't know. Because here's the situation.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Here's, they did often have sessions back to back to back.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Because here was how men chose their services.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: How they chose which women they were gonna sleep with. Uh, they chose it through the doll system.
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: Where along the bar downstairs, there were 10 dolls, like little, like dolls.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: On display each looking similar to one of the women.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: If the doll was lying down, it was unavailable.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: And if the doll was standing upright, they could select one of those dolls to...
Christine Schiefer: You are kidding me.
Em Schulz: Who was currently available.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: Once he goes upstairs and they do the deed, he pays the woman and the woman would drop the $5 or the gold or whatever down piping that would go into the floor. Basically, she would drop it from her room and then...
Christine Schiefer: The laundry shoot.
Em Schulz: Kinda like, yeah, like a laundry shoot. She would drop it through a slot in her wall. It would go down and it would land into like this deposit box behind her doll. So that way...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So that way they knew, okay, put the doll upright again. She is back, back and ready for more. So it was back to back. You could like...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, this is quite a system they've got going.
Em Schulz: Which has to be so weird just knowing like, oh, five seconds ago you were like, it was...
Christine Schiefer: That's what I was thinking. Like, wouldn't you want 'em get cleaned up a bit, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe they, maybe they would like kind of sneak the time, but that's how the bouncer would know. Like, hey, it's been 15 minutes, why haven't you dropped the money down?
Christine Schiefer: Hmm yeah. Fair point.
Em Schulz: So, umm, anyway, that was how they did it. And not only was this one of the finest bordellos or brothels in the area, like I said, it was one of the classier saloons, although business very quickly fell because this whole town essentially blew up because of the Klondike Gold Rush. And only like two years later was the Nome Gold Rush and every person left.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: So the Red Onion Saloon was only massively successful for like two years.
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: And then everybody left to go to Nome.
Christine Schiefer: It's like when... It's like businesses that had that unfortunate timing of opening, like right before COVID and...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It was like a very like hands-on business and then it was like tanked immediately.
Em Schulz: It like shot up and then shut down.
Christine Schiefer: And you had no way of knowing, you know, in advance.
Em Schulz: So that's what happened here.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Where I think they were hoping gold miners would stick around for a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But so after two years, umm, this is like my favorite little... It's like part of the...
Christine Schiefer: Nugget.
Em Schulz: Part of the story nugget. I, I, I was trying to avoid it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. Well, I'm gonna drag you back.
Em Schulz: I was trying to be coy, so just, this is just a fun fact that has nothing to do with the story, but I thought it was so funny that, so the business shut down after two years. The people who ran the business were like, "holy shit. Like we've invested so much money in this. Like, what do we do to make sure that people still know about us even though everyone's already left town? How about we, what if we opened up shop instead, like even closer to the train station? That way people who are still traveling and passing through will see our place."
Christine Schiefer: Right. Maybe they're not here...
Em Schulz: And also come here.
Christine Schiefer: For gold mining, but they're just traveling through.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, so maybe if we move, if we move closer to the train station, and what they meant was literally move the building.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Not just move.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They were like, let's move this whole building and they put the building on logs.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: Had men and a single horse push it.
Christine Schiefer: That horse... The poor horse.
Em Schulz: So for the horse's sake, they only pushed it four blocks. But when I'm thinking of like a manager, I'm like, four blocks. That was, that was worth it to you. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I guess that one guy laid the brick, the bricks himself or whatever the fuck. So he probably was feeling very...
Em Schulz: Couldn't he just put up a sign four blocks down the road that said, keep going four blocks...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, four blocks...
Em Schulz: And you'll see a really cool saloon with naked women.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Naked women this way. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't take much paint.
Em Schulz: Okay. But here's the part that I love the most. So they bring it four blocks down the road. They park the house...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And then I guess they've already taken it off the logs and then they realized they put the house, they landed it backwards.
Christine Schiefer: I knew it. I was like, guaranteed. They did it backwards. Holy shit.
Em Schulz: And they were like, we're not doing this again. And making the horse walk in a circle to rotate the house.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So what they did...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Instead is they...
Christine Schiefer: Also with logs, like you can't really turn it, you know, with logs it would be, you're just going up and down.
Em Schulz: You're probably walking longer than four blocks just to get a full circle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you'd have to do like a giant circumference around the whole town. That's so true.
Em Schulz: So what they did and said is they literally sawed off the front and the back and then just nailed them on the other side.
Christine Schiefer: This is how I put up curtains. This sounds exactly correct. This is how I do it.
Em Schulz: I literally just said to Allison, I was like, I'm reading this part of a story and like, I've never heard a more Christine thing in my life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So you already had this thought. Okay. I was like, wow, this sounds so familiar to me.
Em Schulz: I was like, in my mind I'd be like, no, it needs to be perfect. So I'm gonna go through the rigamarole of like actually rotating this whole thing. But Christine would say, "let me just cut its f"ace off and staple it on its butt.
Christine Schiefer: Lemme just cut...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Cut it in half real quick. I'll just cut in half. Don't, no, no. Like, no one will even know the difference. It's fine.
Em Schulz: The best part is, I have a feeling someone said no one will notice. But guess what? Every single cut line is still visible today in 2024.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, 'cause I decided to DIY it and I'm like, I don't even know how to use a saw, but I, I'll figure it out. I'll YouTube it.
Em Schulz: I feel like the wood on is like all like, like not even in the right way. Like, it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's just like splinter. Everyone gets splinters when they walk inside.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: There's a draft in every room because the, the fucking face of the building isn't meant to be there. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so glad that like the real me is finally being understood and appreciated. Not appreciated, but at least, uh...
Em Schulz: Not appreciated, but known...
Christine Schiefer: No, not appreciated, but known. And that's all I can ask.
Em Schulz: To be loved is to be known.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you so much.
Em Schulz: You're welcome. Thank you for all of the really...
Christine Schiefer: You're so welcome.
Em Schulz: Insane things you do.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. You're welcome.
Em Schulz: So anyway, then, so now they've done like the whole face flip surgery on this house.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's rough.
Em Schulz: And then it still tanked. So after all of that, it didn't be, it didn't stay a saloon. They were like, "well, we, maybe we should just be like, made that fucking sign."
Christine Schiefer: Maybe we shouldn't have cut the front door off. And maybe people would've been like, that looks like an operating business.
Em Schulz: If we didn't cut its butt off, maybe we would've been somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: So, umm, anyway, because it's, it's, it stopped being a saloon very quickly, it became a whole bunch of other things. Umm, this was like 50 years into the future, but World War II came around and it became an Army barracks either before or after that in different times, it was a bakery, it was a laundromat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow.
Em Schulz: It was a union hall. It was a gift store. It was a TV station. It was a telegraph station...
Christine Schiefer: A TV station... What?
Em Schulz: And it was a, and it was a pharmacy. So it was a, it was just a historic building at that point that was just kind of constantly having storefronts.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, and in 1978, the property was bought by Jan Rentmoore, and she's the one who turned it back into the Red Onion Saloon and, uh, the upstairs, she turned into a brothel museum.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I was like, she turned into a oh, museum. Got it.
Em Schulz: A brothel... Museum.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, but I guess it was, she wanted to keep it as original as possible and obviously you can't keep a real brothel anymore. So, or I don't know. But she was like, let's just honor what it was...
Christine Schiefer: There's people who do that in their own way.
Em Schulz: And make it a museum.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think that maybe Jan wasn't looking to do that.
Em Schulz: Jan wasn't feeling it. So I wonder if maybe was there... I, I don't know this answer. I'm kind of saying this just out loud.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But I wonder how she would have known how to make it look as it was. Like, were, did her granddad used to like go there and he could describe...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, good point.
Em Schulz: The pictures, like...
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if the town has like his-historical documentation, like maybe somebody drew picture, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like maybe back then there were like newspaper articles...
Em Schulz: If it was as fancy as they say.
Christine Schiefer: About it.
Em Schulz: Right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like it could have been like newspaper articles, pamphlets, posters. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's cool. Or maybe, so I feel like some places too kind of, even if they don't have all the details, they just lean into like what it would've been like.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like what historians say it would've been like, you know, and, and make it as close to like what a historic brothel would've been. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Luckily some things, uh, picture wise, she was able, she didn't even have to really restore it sounds like this is the way that I understand it. Even the wallpaper upstairs was still original.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: So... I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: The Army barracks didn't take that down. That's amazing.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Either it's original or it's like identical to the original.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Okay.
Em Schulz: But then, then we go back to the first question of how did you know what the original looked like?
Christine Schiefer: Good point.
Em Schulz: So, umm, but so some things upstairs she was able to keep, and I think she might have a bit of like an antique collection or something, because it sounds like there's a bunch of items in there that either come from the brothel time period or the 1898 time period.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry Gio's having a nightmare and he's like yelping. And I'm like, I don't, I, I don't want other people's dogs to be like...
Em Schulz: Okay, no worries.
Christine Schiefer: Gio. It's okay bubba.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. Was he having a real nightmare?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he like yelps in...
Em Schulz: Ohh...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: And it makes me very sad and I, it was like really loud. I didn't know if you could hear it, but it was like really loud because he's in the bathroom, anyway, sorry.
Em Schulz: He's sleeping in the bathroom? Is he drunk?
Christine Schiefer: No, it's just cold on the tile, he likes to sleep behind...
Em Schulz: Oh his tummy.
Christine Schiefer: When I'm in here, he likes to sleep in that bathroom.
Em Schulz: Chewy tummy.
Christine Schiefer: In case I lock him out.
Em Schulz: Oh, what a good boy.
Christine Schiefer: No, there's an AC vent literally he's... There's an AC vent that goes underneath the bathtub onto the tile and he literally like wedges behind the bathtub and just lays in the air conditioning.
Em Schulz: Taught him well. Look, I'm so excited I'm gonna see Gio soon and I can't wait to have...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: The best nap of my life with that little man.
Christine Schiefer: I know. He's gonna be so...
Em Schulz: Oh we're...
Christine Schiefer: Because last time you came, it was so quick that...
Em Schulz: So quick.
Christine Schiefer: I came home and he smelled you on me and was like...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Where...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Where's Em, like looking for you and I felt terrible. I felt terrible.
Em Schulz: Yeah, we really gaslit him because I showed up for maybe five minutes and we kept saying I'd be back and then I never came back.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah that was sad.
Em Schulz: Wow, I can't wait to hold him while he holds me and we both fall asleep. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: In the, in the blistering cold, yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: In the frost, the first frost. Umm okay, so she made this brothel museum and upstairs has either original wallpaper or wallpaper that looks like the original. There's a bunch of period artifacts up there, a lot of the rooms look as they did. So, I mean she really is doing a good job of preserving the history. One of the period artifacts that she has in there, is an original silver dress that she found in the floorboards.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: Is that not so cool and scary all at the same.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's so creepy. I love it.
Em Schulz: Uh. And so that's an example of the fact that there's a lot of trigger objects around here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh for sure.
Em Schulz: Um. And anyway, so it's a saloon, it's also because the saloon it's a restaurant and fun fact, the um employees still dress as people of the time period.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I think I've got that right, uh that's what a lot of sources said and also on their menu, their pizzas are named after madams of the brothel.
Christine Schiefer: Wow!
Em Schulz: So really honoring them.
Christine Schiefer: They really are.
Em Schulz: Uh the place still hosts live music events and drag shows which I love.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh yeah.
Em Schulz: Never occurred to me that there are drag shows in Alaska. In my mind, Alaska's so removed like I just like I don't even know what's going on over there, but like it makes me happy to know that there's drag, love that.
Christine Schiefer: Love that.
Em Schulz: Umm and it's open because it's Alaska and everything's probably very seasonal there. It's open from April to September.
Christine Schiefer: Mm makes sense there, there. It, it gets dark a little.
Em Schulz: Last, last fun fact I have for you is that they host a ghost and good time girls walking tour...
Christine Schiefer: Hello.
Em Schulz: Which allegedly comes with a souvenir garter...
Christine Schiefer: Huh!
Em Schulz: Or if you don't want to take the long history tour, you can get a tour they call the quickie.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I saw this on two different blogs that at some point, there was a sign that said $5 for 15 minutes just like in 1898.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was about to ask if it was the same price.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, well done on the marketing.
Christine Schiefer: Do you think they still have the dolls?
Em Schulz: I wonder. I did see something about how there's oil paintings in the restaurant and each of them are supposed to represent one of the dolls.
Christine Schiefer: Oh interesting.
Em Schulz: Um. But I don't know if that was like it felt a little like someone was maybe reading into the art...
Christine Schiefer: Like artistic liberty sort of...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it sounded... Because it sounds like it's a bunch of oil paintings of madams and maybe they're associating it with like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see.
Em Schulz: The 10 dolls. I, I don't totally know. Apparently also in the restaurant which I think this should be a health code violation, part of the um antiques in the collection in the restaurant of all places a part of the collection is um a bunch of vintage 1890s chamber pots AKA bedpans.
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Like just hanging above you while you eat, so like I'm kind of like ugh...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Whatever, okay. It's for the, for the vibe. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm into it.
Em Schulz: So now for the ghosts. Now for the ghosts. There's three ghosts here. Um. I'll say the two that are kind of like not as popular first. One of them is a a former madam named Diamond Lil and...
Christine Schiefer: I love [0:43:04.4] ____ they are not as popular which makes them sound like they're, they're not part of the mean girls group.
Em Schulz: Well, they're... Well, I don't know if she's a mean girl, but she's definitely like the it girl for sure of uh, of the Red Onion Saloon. She is the it ghost. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, oh.
Em Schulz: She has a ranking. Uh so, Diamond Lil is a former madam here, and I don't know why they think it's Diamond Lil. I feel like they just kind of gave her a name because it sounds like it could just be any sex worker, any spirit of a sex worker or just of like any woman kind of hitting on a man. Umm people, especially men report feeling someone stroking their legs and hearing whispering in their ear, they smell perfume and so it's just kind of understood that they're trying to get them all razzed up, rizzed up.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, but so do they know that there was a Diamond who worked there or did they just like totally make that name up?
Em Schulz: So there was a woman named Diamond, I don't know if her name was Diamond Lillian Davenport or Lillian Davenport and like Diamond was like her show name, I don't totally know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm but someone that they named this ghost after and they assume it's this ghost. She was real and she...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, got it, got it, got it. So they're just kind of assuming that's who that is.
Em Schulz: And they're saying she died, uh like she grew to old age and died in the '70s and when she died that's when spirits started appearing in the saloon.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh okay, so that wouldn't track then, yeah.
Em Schulz: So I think that's why they think it must be her. So, umm but yeah people just, men just generally feel like someone's hitting on them or like they feel like the sensations. You know. So, that's Diamond Lil. Then there's the ghost of a malevolent male spirit that they have named John. And I thought like oh because he's like a John because of the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh right, yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But apparently that was the name of a bouncer that they had at this place.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's probably not happy with all these people in there.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and he's apparently a very oppressive energy, uh many people think he's the previous bouncer since he seems to not like men. He also seems to really not like anybody. Umm, but he has been heard pounding on doors upstairs, which would be him...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Kicking guys out. Umm, he also throws doors open, which makes sense. He pushes people downstairs, which maybe, maybe he thinks you're spending too much time upstairs and you gotta get outta here.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. You're like, put your pants on and go. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And, uh, apparently he was a stinky boy because people still smell his body odor when he's around.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool. I love that he brought that with him to the afterlife.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, imagine you die and you're remembered by your stank...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know? That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: I almost like to think that he did that on purpose so that he's like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "I'm more effective this way. Like, I can get people outta here, you know?"
Em Schulz: You know, actually that's, I never wanna be further away from someone than when they're stinky, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Like, clear out a room, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Sometimes you walk past someone and you just go, oh my God. Like, I just, so I think maybe John was one of those people. If, if he smells this bad in the afterlife, he must have really not smelled good in, in, in life.
Christine Schiefer: In the time. Yeah. Probably not.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Then again, it was 1898. I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, who smelled good?
Em Schulz: If deodorant was even a thing.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like, who smelled good?
Em Schulz: But also then that means like the ladies, the working ladies, deserve an extra round of applause because of deodorant, and soap wasn't a thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And it was a town full of men who weren't being encouraged to clean.
Christine Schiefer: No, I always think that.
Em Schulz: Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: I always think about that. It's like such a alarming thought, especially because they didn't have like proper contraception and stuff. And so it's like the, the, that plus like a lack of hygiene is just horrifying.
Em Schulz: Oh, well. So, yeah. So he pushes people down. He smells bad, he opens doors, he pounds on doors. He will apparently like bull rush people and you can feel him come...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Something come past you really aggressively. Items will move. Apparently very expensive drinks will go missing. Christine's future ghost.
Christine Schiefer: That's just me right now. I'm like, it was a ghost, I think. It smelled bad, so.
Em Schulz: Amazing that you'll lose your social security card in a bar, but you know where every fucking drink is, so.
Christine Schiefer: I do, and I'll never lose it.
Em Schulz: Some people have...
Christine Schiefer: That thing's glued to my hand. My social security card is on its own leash.
Em Schulz: I feel like the drink is in your hand and the social security card is kinda like wet stuck to the bottom of a cup.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's my coaster.
Christine Schiefer: So, it's hard...
Em Schulz: I like, I didn't wanna ruin your bar, so I used this as a coaster. I didn't wanna ruin the nice stain of wood. [laughter] Stupid.
Em Schulz: Some people have seen his face reflected in the mirrors, and it's gotten to a point where he is so nasty that apparently a bunch of tour guides refuse to even talk about him on tour.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. He's really getting worked up in there. I don't like that.
Em Schulz: If people, if you talk to one of those tour guides and you ask about him, he, they will like sidestep any questions about him.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: They'll be like, "Anyway, let me redirect you to over here."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yikes.
Em Schulz: Umm, so that's John, and then the main ghost is Lydia.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And the Red Onion Saloon sounds like it's like probably one of the more haunted places in Alaska, at least in Skagway, Alaska. And Lydia is the most famous ghost there. So she is that bitch because she's the most famous ghost in town, at the very least.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm, so she's a former sex worker. They don't actually know if there was a Lydia, the name Lydia has just kind of been like orally passed on as the building has come to be whatever it is now.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And, umm, it's, the story goes that she died from contracting syphilis because this place was not clean.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, or they say she hanged herself in her crib because, they don't know why, but another theory is that, Oh, she hanged herself because she had syphilis.
Christine Schiefer: Or was pregnant, or I mean, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Or something. Syphilis is involved in her thing...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, there is syphilis. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Because when people have seen her, they say that... I, I didn't look this up, I probably should have, but, umm, people, when they see her full body apparition, she's got something going on with her face that I guess is very similar to a symptom of syphilis.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my. So the, even that got...
Em Schulz: Like late stage syphilis.
Christine Schiefer: Well that's terrible that that got brought to the afterlife too. This other guy smells bad. She had to bring her syphilis with her? God.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's a great point. I, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, man, give these people a break in the afterlife.
Em Schulz: Like, at least like, let them be cured of any ailments, you know?
Em Schulz: Right. You'd think at least.
Em Schulz: Well, so she, I guess, had some sort of late stage syphilis that was, that was showing on her face.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And that's why people think that if she was real, she must have hanged herself because now that she, she's lost her looks, she has lost her job and she can't afford to live anymore. It's a, a whole dark spiral.
Christine Schiefer: And she's very sick. That is very dark. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, umm, people see her as a full body apparition with the condition on her face.
Em Schulz: Right.
Em Schulz: Uh, that's pretty common. Uh, people also see her without the condition, so I don't know what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, people see her in a long dress, a long dark dress.
Em Schulz: Maybe it's somebody different.
Em Schulz: That's a great point. It could just be another person. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, maybe there was just somebody who looks kind of similar in a dress and it's not her. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm, people say that she appears often as cold spots, but only in those cold spots can you smell lilac perfume. People see and hear her walking around upstairs. People have seen her peeking around upstairs. People have seen her looking down the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, and people have seen her gliding down the stairs. So she really likes these fucking stairs.
Christine Schiefer: She likes those damn stairs. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: She, I guess, I mean, if most of your time is going up and down those stairs to like invite a man up, you know, so.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, true. Yeah. You'd be doing that every day.
Christine Schiefer: A lot of residual energy. Think about like your fucking squats, like your leg muscles though. If you're...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. You'd have glutes of steel.
Em Schulz: Half your job is going up and down stairs. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And in all those frilly fur, frilly outfits. Oi yoi yoi.
Em Schulz: In heels. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: No air conditioning, forget it. Also, I wonder if they ever, which you probably would've said if they did, but hear like the clinking, you know, 'cause I feel like that would be such a residual sound.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The clinking of dropping money down into the...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's so, so... Yeah. Like a [0:51:03.2] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Pipes or whatever like...
Em Schulz: Or something.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if they ever hear like that clink coming from the wall, 'cause I feel like that would be such a residual, like constant sound.
Em Schulz: Well, you know what I was thinking? I was like, why are, isn't anyone reporting the sounds of sex?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's true too. There's so many things you could be, uh, experiencing that are a little more alarming.
Em Schulz: If this place was open, let's do some quick math. I'll do it. Okay. So if there was...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't yell at me. It wasn't my idea. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, if there was up to, without breaks, 48 men, that one woman could sleep with a day, and there were 10 women, that means 480 men were being serviced a day. That times 365 for a year, and it was open for two years.
Em Schulz: Are they open on flag day though?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Arbor day is out for sure. [laughter] So that means in total, if someone was working around the, if all 10 women were working around the clock every single day for two years. The, there could have been up to 350,000 men who got serviced at this place.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: Which obviously that number is, like, exaggerated because there were a lot of, you know, circu-circumstances. But...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I imagine there were a lot of repeat customers as well, but...
Em Schulz: But that's at least up to 350,000 instances of sex that, residually, something should have been captured, I would think.
Christine Schiefer: You'd think that something would have made it through, yeah.
Em Schulz: You would hear a bed rocking, you would hear something.
Christine Schiefer: But on top of that too, that every single one of those instances, they'd have to throw money down the thing.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So that would also be happening at the same time. I'm surprised that... Yeah. Huh.
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe people do hear sex noises and they're just like, Oh, that's just somebody...
Em Schulz: Yeah, maybe someone just like...
Christine Schiefer: In the other room.
Em Schulz: Going to town right now, yeah. Um. So, anyway, she has been seen all over the stairs, as I mentioned. She's also been seen running into the madam's room.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But then when they check the room, it's completely empty, as you have known with Mr. Whaley.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Oh, wow.
Em Schulz: Actually, there was one night where one of the employees got really freaked out because he heard something pounding upstairs, which would have been probably the ghost, John. And he called the police thinking someone had broken in, and when the cops got there, they saw someone running into the madam's room.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And when they opened the door, no one was there.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, creepy sheet. I love that she's still like, lingering when they arrive.
Em Schulz: I know, but also that means like, do you think those instances are connected, where like, it's one story being played out?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I, you know, I was wondering, because I was wondering if the banging was just that woman who was trying to get into the madam's room or something, like...
Em Schulz: Oh, interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Who's banging on the door. I don't know, but it sounds like she just ran right in, so, yeah, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, people have also seen her... This is precious. She has been seen walking around as if watering plants in the building.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh, I feel like the first few times you'd be like, what is she doing? [laughter] Like, it's kind of like this weird gesture, like, with your arm.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I know.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like, what is she doing?
Em Schulz: Well, and she's, so usually when they see her watering plants, she's like, watering... It's so weird because she's a ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, but it's like, existing plants in the space.
Em Schulz: Sometimes, and sometimes she's watering nothing as if it's her own plants.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." So she can see both. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So she's like, bisexual, I don't know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's... That is crazy.
Em Schulz: She can see our plants and hers, I guess, umm.
Christine Schiefer: They should put a fake plant up and see if she like, knows the difference, you know.
Em Schulz: Interesting. That'd be...
Christine Schiefer: Like, if that's just like, oh, 'cause it's plastic, she doesn't see it, or like...
Em Schulz: You know what they should, you know what they should do do though, is wherever they are constantly seeing her watering a plant that isn't there...
Christine Schiefer: You should plant one.
Em Schulz: They should put like, the Lydia plant, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God that's so...
Em Schulz: Or a lilac, a lilac.
Christine Schiefer: A lilac plant. Oh, Em, that's beautiful. And then also, like...
Em Schulz: Get me Skagway. I'll tell them.
Christine Schiefer: Get Skagway on the horn.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um. Eva? Um. But like, also, I bet, I mean, this is probably just cuckoo bananas of me, but like, I feel like if there were a ghost watering my plants and I put a plant there, I feel like it would probably thrive. I don't know.
Em Schulz: So people often, like the staff who are meant to go water the plants, will realize that their plants' soil is already wet.
Christine Schiefer: See? Oh my god, she's like, still working. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: I know, it's like, she's like, this is a job I would much prefer, actually, just watering plants. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think that's like, the retirement job she deserved, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She's like, I'm just checking on things, I don't wanna have to do anything else.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe she's just living out her retirement now, you know, just like...
Em Schulz: She just sounds like all my friends, where they're just like, leave me alone with my plants.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm a plant lady now. Get over it.
Em Schulz: I'll do yours while I'm here, I've already got the watering can.
Christine Schiefer: Here's a, here's a, what do you call it? Propagate. Well, here, just take this seedling...
Em Schulz: Oh, here's a little root. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. But yeah, so she's seen walking around as if watering plants, and then that makes me think, are there ghost plants to ghosts? Where like, 'cause it...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: How come we can only see her and not the plant, but then maybe it's because she had a soul and plants don't? But I don't know, I don't know what the...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, Em, that's deep. Now all the plant people are coming for you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, apparently plants...
Christine Schiefer: Plants don't have souls. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Apparently plants can, they scream in pain if you hit them with the right frequency. Did you know that? That's terrifying.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I did. What about trees though? Those feel more like they have a soul.
Em Schulz: I... Interesting. Wow. I really wish you had your vape pen right now. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, this one?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Obviously, I do, just in case.
Em Schulz: Well, so she has also been seen, like I said, in a long dark dress going down the stairs. People have reported feeling her caressing their face.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And, and, uh, in her room, people see like white blurs, shimmering lights, weird orbs, and sometimes her reflection in the mirror too. And one staff member actually said, this is a quote from them, "If you don't acknowledge her, she can make the rest of your day a little bit difficult. We... "
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She's probably like, "seniority bitch, I've been here since 1898, like respect me."
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, at least you could be fucking polite.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I have put in more work arguably than any of you here, and I've been here longer.
Christine Schiefer: Do you see the snake plant? Why do you think it's so fucking tall?
Em Schulz: I'm doing your job for you on top of everything else I already did here, so you're welcome.
Christine Schiefer: Don't be a dick.
Em Schulz: Uh, he said, "If you don't acknowledge her, she can make the rest of your day a little bit difficult. We have that big safe at the back door downstairs in the bar. An employee came in one morning trying to get the money out of the safe and the damn thing wouldn't open. Then she realized she forgot to say good morning to Lydia. And the moment she did, the safe opened and she never forgot to say hi again."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, Lydia, that little biotch, she's standing in front of the safe like, nope. Not until you say hi, like closing it.
Em Schulz: She was like, "I know the code, just say my name." I love that she's just a girl's girl. She loves her plants and she loves attention and that's what she likes, that's it.
Christine Schiefer: That's it, then she'll go away.
Em Schulz: That's it, it's so easy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like she's so easy.
Christine Schiefer: God, so low maintenance.
Em Schulz: And she's also a girl's girl because another time there was a guy being disrespectful to his wife while they were eating and his chair flipped out from under him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, hell yeah.
Em Schulz: And then a shoe print was found on his shirt later as if she was like stand, like Virginia flag, like just standing on him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Another time a cook who was uh playing music too loud and I guess a bunch of like bartenders up front were like, how do we tell them to shut the fuck up? This is like kind of annoying. And they never had to say anything because his iPod flung itself off the shelf, disconnecting it. And then three jars one by one fell off the counter to get his attention.
Christine Schiefer: Stop. Oh, I thought it was gonna say to get jam all over his iPod.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, oh, cool. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It would be fun if they did like the disappearing act where like the iPod went missing and then it just ended up in a solid jar of jam.
Christine Schiefer: Inside the jar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, people have also reported hearing a woman's voice, lights flicker, the, I guess the light fixtures sway on their own, items end up in strange places, uh, wine glasses will move on their own, although I know that's Christine. And then the final thing is that they have like a piano that they close and lock up every night.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And it will still play even though it's closed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, that's creepy. That should not be... Unless there's a little mouse in there, but that should not be happening. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Ooh. So since she is the most famous ghost at the most famous haunted place in this town, people have heard about Lydia from all over and send her fan mail.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: This girl, I'm telling you, all she needs is attention. It's not that hard. And so...
Christine Schiefer: All she needs is a TikTok account. She's thriving.
Em Schulz: Now that's something else. Apparently, this is the last thing I'll leave you with, is that the staff read her her fan mail. That's beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." I love her. I love her so much.
Em Schulz: I truly, I just can't get enough of her. She is that girl.
Christine Schiefer: I want to, knowing that they read it aloud too makes it so much extra special to send her a letter. 'Cause you're like, I know she'll hear this. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Apparently some people will like send like teddy bears and they'll leave them out for her and stuff.
Christine Schiefer: That's really sweet.
Em Schulz: If someone could send a lilac plant and request that it goes...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. For sure.
Em Schulz: To where she's always watering plants. That would be great.
Christine Schiefer: That's a great idea, Em. Oh my gosh, what a great fucking story.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's the Red Onion Saloon.
Christine Schiefer: That was really good. I was excited. The second you said Red Onion Saloon, I was like, this one's gonna be for me. I just knew it.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if that was boring? I'd be like, yuck.
Christine Schiefer: Yuck. No, nothing boring about the Red Onion Saloon. Your lux-luxurious locks are getting some like highlight treatment with the lighting.
Em Schulz: Oh. It's sun in. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no I haven't.
Em Schulz: I just like went to the beach and put some lemon juice in my hair.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's sun in. I thought you were saying it's Sun-In.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Or something. I was like, No, Em, I have not heard that 'cause it's not a thing.
Em Schulz: Oh. Do you remember Sun-In that really, it changed my life when I was 12?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but you're not actually using Sun-In, are you?
Em Schulz: No, it's just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I was like, that's so fun. Is that back? Like, I bet you Urban Outfitters sells that, you know.
Em Schulz: You... I'm sure they do. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Actually, I think they probably do.
Em Schulz: You know what it actually is, is because, so I am currently obviously as you know, in the new house and we don't, the studio has yet to even be built and...
Christine Schiefer: Lol...
Em Schulz: So right now we're doing, I made basically a plunger fort and there's a blanket over me. And so this is, this over here is where the blanket is covering the light and here is where it comes out, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's like... I'm sending you a picture. 'Cause as I went to go pee, I found Gio in the spot we were talking about earlier.
Em Schulz: Oh, the monkey.
Christine Schiefer: Behind the bathtub. So I took a picture so that you know where your nap location is for next time you're here. It's wedged between the bathtub and a wall. Umm...
Em Schulz: And you know that, you know that section was actually probably once so dirty and he's just rolled around it at so many times. It's actually probably the cleanest spot of your house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's just, uh... It's just probably a collection of dog hair to be honest.
Em Schulz: Oh, he's, he looks, you got him in, in his little sleepy.
Christine Schiefer: I did kind of wake him up. I felt bad.
Em Schulz: Oh, he has this little sleepy eyes.
Christine Schiefer: I gave him a treat just to make up for it, so.
Em Schulz: Oh, you know how when you wake up... Uh, we've talked about this before, but like, you come back from the beyond and you're like, what year is it? Like that's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Who am I?
Em Schulz: He looks like he, he was going through it in his, in the beyond.
Christine Schiefer: He was having bad dreams, so.
Em Schulz: That little monkey. Oh my gosh. All right. Umm, hmm. Dazzle me.
Christine Schiefer: I'll try my best. This is a story I've actually been wanting to cover for years. Umm, and I've gotten many requests to cover it. And as I was kind of going through my phone and like looking at what I had done so far with it, I realized I had screenshot a bunch of suggestions like years ago from people. Umm...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Like DMs and stuff that I put in an album and have really, you know, got around to. Umm, but, uh, a lot of those were requesting this story. So I'm excited to finally be bringing it. It is the story of Steven Stayner. And I wanna add that, uh, there was a documentary that came out. It's a docuseries, I guess, umm, on Hulu in 2022. And I watched it back then and I remember thinking, Oh boy, this is a doozy. I'll have to cover this someday. And then just never got around to it. I watched it again and it's still quite chilling. And a it's a greatly, it's a well, very greatly. It's a very well produced, umm, docuseries, so.
Em Schulz: So, you watched it back then too, though?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: It's interesting that, umm, I don't know, it's, I in... No, I don't, I don't really know what I'm even saying. But it is comforting in a weird way to know that you're still affected by stories the same way after all this time.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Instead of being jaded and like, oh, it used to be scary and now it's not.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. No, it's still deeply upsetting. Woo-hoo. Umm.
Em Schulz: Woo-hoo.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not jaded.
Em Schulz: But at least, at least, uh, at least the people, the people can know that it still, uh, rattles you.
Christine Schiefer: It still rattles me for sure. And this one, uh, is quite a doozy. I, uh, will get to it. But this may be a two-parter, Em.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So we start with Kay and Delbert. 'Cause why wouldn't we start with someone named Delbert? Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Delbert, uh, is Steven's father. His name is Del. He went by Del. So Kay and Del Stayner, they knew from the start that they wanted to have children and build a family together and ended up with five kids. They lived in Merced, California in the '70s. They lived on a street with a bunch of other families, you know, very middle class, like all the families that were friends and kids ran around and played outside all day. Just very classic '70s. What you picture '70s, Northern California style.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Or, I don't know, Merced is in northern or central, but it's somewhere in the state. So all the kids ran around together in being groups. They were all friends. There was this like really, uh, very, very strong sense of community, uh, among the families there. And it was very idyllic. Which of course when I'm covering a story and it starts off feeling very idyllic.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: We know where this is going. So Kay and Del did their best to raise good kids. Umm, especially for the time, you know, it was the '70s. So they taught their children to always be respectful of adults and be obedient and, you know, not realizing that that can...
Em Schulz: Don't...
Christine Schiefer: Really get you in trouble.
Em Schulz: Don't ruffle feathers and...
Christine Schiefer: Don't ruffle feathers.
Em Schulz: Conform or...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Was it?
Christine Schiefer: Well, trust a grownup.
Em Schulz: Observe. Uh, yeah. Uh, respect authority.
Christine Schiefer: Respect authority. Big time, big time. And we still struggle with that, you know, or at least I do. Umm, and so the answer was always yes. And, and the way that, you know, Kay described her kids. She said some of them were more kind of rebellious and, you know, uh, more chaotic. But some were very like by the book kids.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And Steven was more of a by the book kid and he really took his parents' lessons to heart. And Kay said she thinks that is what ultimately got Steven into trouble, is that she had taught him to respect your elders. And what did you say? Umm, authority. Respect authority.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, uh, uh, obey authority. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Obey. Yeah. Yeah. So Steven was a very attentive child. He was always wanting to help around the house. He was always wanting to do things to make his parents proud. Of course that makes just this whole thing just sadder. And unlike other boys his age in the neighborhood, he was very gentle. He wasn't like a roughhousing type of rough and tumble type kid. Umm, he was just very trusting, very naive, just a very sweet kid. So on December 4th, 1972, uh, this, everything just goes wrong. So 7-year-old Steven is at school and he is waiting for his mom to pick him up. This is like out of a fucking afterschool special. Okay. She's at the hardware store, she's running a little bit late and Steven's like, "Well, I guess I'll walk home." And because it's the '70s, the school's like, "Okay, bye." You know, a 7-year-old can just leave.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It doesn't matter. And so he just walked away from the school without calling ho, without calling anyone 'cause his mom was running late.
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: And, umm, that haunts her to this day, you know? Uh, but he starts walking home and when Kay arri... So sorry, let me get backtrack for a second. So he leaves and when Kay finally arrives at the school, she's a little bit late and Steven is gone. And of course the faculty in their like bell bottoms, I assume were like, Ah, he peaced out of here, you know, I don't know. Go find him.
Em Schulz: It's like, yeah man, he just kind of wanders.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know how... That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: He's a rolling stone.
Em Schulz: I don't know why I'm assuming there.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? Well, we are in California, I don't know. Umm, so she drove straight home, uh, and did not see him at home. He wasn't there. So she thought, okay, well maybe he got caught up with some friends and went with them to go play outside like they always do. So she didn't quite panic yet, but a couple hours passed and Steven still wasn't home. And when she went out and asked all the neighborhood kids, all the families next door, nobody had seen him since school had ended.
Em Schulz: Oh boy.
Christine Schiefer: So Kay immediately called the police and the police searched the neighborhood, assuming Steven was just at another kid's house or playing somewhere outside, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Was not there. And when they brought in their search, still no sign of Steven. So soon they start realizing bad news bearers we're pretty sure Steven was abducted. Which... It's just hard because it's like, you want them to be like, hurry up. Like, but you never assume, right? That like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The...
Em Schulz: Also back then, like I feel like it was so much, I feel like today it's very, umm, quick and easy to ass, to jump to the conclusion of like, oh, something really bad has happened. 'cause I haven't heard from them in like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: 20 minutes. But like back then, I, I, I wonder at what point it took a parent to realize that they should start worrying because there weren't phones or there weren't at least like cell phones.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: If you were out playing in the fucking forest with your friends, like Winnie the Pooh, like no one's gonna...
Christine Schiefer: Like right, like building a tree house out there. Like you're not...
Em Schulz: Like if the only rule is come back when the street lights come on.
Christine Schiefer: By dark, yeah.
Em Schulz: Then like... And they left at 9:00 in the morning from school or whatever, then like, you have like a million hours in my mind. I don't know the math, you have a bunch of hours before you should even begin to panic.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Whereas today it'd be like, let me, I'm, find my friends by 9:15, I'm panicking, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Like if they're not, if they're in the woods, I'm like, what are doing in the woods?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're being Winnie the Pooh. Okay, that's fine. Umm, no, but for real, like, it wasn't a concern. And, umm, I forget which podcast I listened to one recently where they just kind of described it like, oh, there was no concept of stranger danger quite yet, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't like people didn't assume necessarily the worst of people, especially like, well-dressed, well groomed folks, you know, like...
Em Schulz: The...
Christine Schiefer: You teach your kid to trust them and look up to them.
Em Schulz: Well, the PSAs for like, do you know where your kids are? That wasn't until like the '80s. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Right, exactly. That was like a direct result. Well, I don't know, a direct result, I don't...
Em Schulz: Feels like it.
Christine Schiefer: Statistician, but a statistician, but it... I'm not a statistician or statistician. Umm, but it feels like it was kind of a result of like this kind of surge in...
Em Schulz: The '70s spree.
Christine Schiefer: Fear of like serial killers in the '70s and stranger danger became a thing. And so in the '80s it was like, satanic, everybody's satanic, everybody's stranger danger. Like, keep your kids safe. Drugs are gonna rot their brains. You know, it just this fear mongering started. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And the '70s were a freer time at least that's the vibe I get from stories like this, where it was just unheard of that you'd even be worried if your kid walked home alone at age seven. You know.
Em Schulz: I see that meme every now and then where they talk about the, the, for those who don't know, there used to be an ad on TV around like 10 o'clock at night, or it was like 8 o'clock at night.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it would come on as a commercial break and be like, do you know where your kids are? Which like, the fact, the meme is like the fact that TV's had to remind parents to like check for their children.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, look around with their martini, like, huh, oh.
Em Schulz: But, uh, but yeah, it was like, uh, make sure your kids are home at night and all this stuff, but um...
Christine Schiefer: But like, are you sure they're at Jenny's house? Maybe they're doing the pot. [laughter] You know, maybe they're with a boy getting pregnant.
Em Schulz: But I feel like the, but yeah, I think it was probably just more commonplace at the time to just not care. 'cause well, up until that point, well, I guess after the '70s people started, like we were just talking about, started worrying, but at the beginning of the '70s before all these like serial killers had like this big heyday.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I feel like it was just like, oh, they're missing. They're fucking, they're 11. They'll figure it out. Like it was...
Christine Schiefer: They ran away. They don't want, they don't like you anymore. They ran away. What?
Em Schulz: In certain areas. I mean, I like little kids are like taking the subway to go to school. So I think like when you're in middle school and you're missing, it's just like, oh, well you, you clearly have an...
Christine Schiefer: They can handle themselves. Right, like they're...
Em Schulz: You clearly have a different plan. Like you'll figure it out, yeah. You're probably at your 8:00 to 5:00 job.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean even I was... Yeah, he was in the factory. Don't worry about it. [laughter] Umm, no. I, I used to run around all day without, I mean, we didn't have cell phones when I was little and we would run around all day and we would literally just knock on random people's doors, like selling Girl Scout Cookies or selling fake geodes, it'd depend on it on the day. Umm, and I would sell fake items to...
Em Schulz: If my mom, if my mom...
Christine Schiefer: I was selling rocks, let's be real. I was selling rocks to strangers and I would just ring the doorbell and the old man would answer and be like, "what do you want?" And I'd be like, "would you like a geode?" And he'd be like, "no." And then I would try to sales pitch him.
Em Schulz: The way that we, we were definitely the last generation to like not have find my friends and like tracking our children. Umm. If my mom knew that there was a time period where she'd be able to track me, she would have built the time machine herself...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And came here and raised me.
Christine Schiefer: She would have dragged you by your ear into the future. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But uh no, it is, it's wild that you really just, it was commonplace to just not know and just be like, well, I hope everything's going okay. And then...
Christine Schiefer: Ours was always just home by dark, home by dinner.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So anyway, I, it's, I, I've, all this to say from my, my earlier statement of like, I wonder how much time had to pass for them to actually start getting worried.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, yeah. And, and you think too, like he's seven, right? So he's even younger than... And he's, he's the... He's not the youngest, but he's, um he has older siblings. So like, while they're out and about with their friends and stuff, if the seven year old's still not home, I feel like that's when you start, like when the other kids come home and Steven's still not home I imagine you start to get nervous, right? Like he's seven, how long could he be gone for? Like where could he possibly be? So after a few hours, they suspect that uh perhaps this has been an abduction, especially when they heard like he walked home alone. So pretty quickly the story broke nationally and they plastered Steven's face all over television, flyers, magazines, newspaper.
Christine Schiefer: This was like a very sensational story. His parents were on all the news shows. They were doing interviews, they were begging the public for any information that would lead to Steven. Umm, apparently like in the docu-series, Kay talks about how people acted during this time. And like, let's just say the real wackadoos came out of the woodwork because...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like people would call and like just make up information for the hell of it. Like call in tips that were just fake. Uh, one woman told them that she knew, told Steven's parents that she knew with certainty that a man had dismembered Steven and put his remains in a sewer.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Like why would you even think to say that to somebody? Like what an unhinged thing to do.
Em Schulz: And cruel.
Christine Schiefer: And very cruel, unbelievably cruel. And speaking of cruel, the opposite allegedly is what this person was trying to get at. This one guy confessed to killing Steven and told police where he had buried his remains and they got the like digger out. They looked and excavated. There was nothing there. Eventually figured out this guy lied and they said, "why would you make that up?" And he said, "well, I just wanted to give the family closure." Huh?
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And also yuck to want it like to then give yourself the savior complex of like, I really helped them out.
Christine Schiefer: Ew, 100%. And like for what? So you can spend your life in prison? I mean, I, I don't know. I assume this guy probably was already in prison. I don't know. It just seems so weird. Like why would you even do that? But whatever, people never fail to shock me so.
Em Schulz: Disgust you.
Christine Schiefer: Disgust me is a better word. Yeah. Umm, so some of the stories about what happened to Steven were so tormenting. Like, hmm, maybe that your seven year old was uh dismembered and put in a sewer that Kay and Del sometimes sent their children to stay with relatives, like with family because they...
Em Schulz: So they could just cry.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, and also they didn't want them ever overhearing like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, okay obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Especially the littler ones who were even younger than seven. They don't want them hearing the police or anybody coming and saying, "yeah, we heard this one tip that like his head was removed."
Em Schulz: He doesn't have his head anymore. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yeah. So they had to send them away to just get out of the, you know, space. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That makes sense. I was thinking like, just so they could have their own meltdowns about this.
Christine Schiefer: I imagine that's probably part of it. And I I know that they've talked to, umm, they've talked to the sibling. Well, we'll get into why this story is so detailed, but uh basically the dad kind of lost it. Like he really had kind of a breakdown about all this and his kids said you know they'd never heard him cry. And now he was crying constantly. Just like, really, it just flipped their whole family life upside down, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also like, I can't imagine, especially in the '70s when like, God forbid men have emotions and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. True.
Em Schulz: To be crying. Like and then you're like, it's almost like that, that cycle of like, now I'm crying 'cause my kids are seeing me cry.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the shame of it and then...
Em Schulz: And now I'm crying because now they're scared, and I'm crying...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like, you just now...
Em Schulz: Just constant sorrow.
Christine Schiefer: And it feels like it was just turmoil, like a nightmare. And so they would send the kids away every now and then to just like get them out of the situation. Umm, and meanwhile you know they're getting these leads, which half of them are, well, probably most of them are false leads or at least fake. But some of them are even blatant lies. And so after all these leads start drying up, the news circuit kind of moves on, right? Like they just have other stories to cover, hotter topics, more recent stories. And so Del and Kay, even though they did whatever they could to keep their son Steven on people's minds, the world kind of moved on.
Christine Schiefer: And like I said, Steven had two younger siblings and they really struggled to understand what was happening because you know, they're so little they can barely grasp day to day things that anyway, let alone like somebody abducting your older brother and his two older siblings or yeah his two older siblings. So he was a middle child, would always tell the young ones like, don't ask, because if they asked what happened to Steven, then the parents would get distraught.
Em Schulz: True.
Christine Schiefer: And the older siblings basically said like, "we don't talk about it." And so it's just trauma in different ways for the whole family, right.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, those poor kids grew up like just wanting answers and not being able to ask and...
Christine Schiefer: And just feeling like so confused and scared, right? Like, I mean, the fear must have been there, even if they didn't know why or what had happened, something bad clearly had happened.
Em Schulz: Or wondering if it could happen to them.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: 'Cause they don't even know what happened to Steven.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And so there was just a lot of fear umm, amongst the children. And to be clear, like I'm not saying the the parents did it wrong or what, like there's no way to avoid...
Em Schulz: There's no right way to get through that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I imagine there's no way to avoid just trauma, compounded trauma through the family if something like this happens. Um. But so Del and Kay you know, they coped in their own ways. Kay was able to kind of remain optimistic. Like she kept that hope alive that they would find Steven you know, and uh she knew she had to kind of keep it together for her other kids. For two years, um she did not leave the house unless somebody else was home in case the phone rang.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And so she would not even go to the grocery store unless somebody were planted at home waiting for the phone, because she was like, just in case. So that's how she lived for two years. And meanwhile, Del, her husband was already mourning. He had kind of accepted that Steven had died. He was going through the stages of grief. Um. And his family you know had to witness this happen. He would drive down rural roads sometimes with the family in the car, and he would look for upturned earth to see if there was a fresh grave...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Where his son might be. Like he was in the worst possible case scenario in his mind, he was looking for...
Em Schulz: Like grieving and hypervigilant and...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. He was looking for a dead...
Em Schulz: Also, trying to keep it together.
Christine Schiefer: He was looking for his son, but assuming he was dead and and grieving his life, it just was like all very, very, very messy. Umm another thing he would do is if a car passed him on the road and there was like something in the backseat, he would follow that car thinking like, maybe this is the abductor.
Em Schulz: Well, yeah, the paranoia.
Christine Schiefer: Bringing Steven's remains somewhere. "I have to find out. I'll, I won't be able to live with myself if I don't find out."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so this kind of like took over a lot of the family, you know kind of a gray cloud, I guess I, you'd say over the family.
Em Schulz: Obsessing over like, maybe maybe it's him at every turn.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it's him. And it's like the kids kind of had to just follow along because that's you know their, that their dad led the way in that, in that way. And he would cry, like I said, very often. And his children like didn't know how to comfort him. 'Cause of course, how do you know that? Um. And they didn't understand like, what to do when adults are sad, you know? And it's, it just all makes my heart hurt a little bit. Um. So Kay and Del, they were able to lean in on each other despite like how differently they kind of viewed the situation. And maybe that's why, maybe because they like both had conflicting views on it, that they were able to like hold it together for the family. I'm not sure. But as the years passed um, they kind of were able to cope and she even got Del to start kindling a little hope even to say like, well, maybe we'll get answers, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And so he kind of processes grief and they started to kind of piece things back together. So that's kind of the backstory. Now we're gonna do a little, we're gonna get in the uh time machine with Linda and we're gonna go, go forward a couple years. We're going 260 miles away. We're heading to a town called Comptche, California, 260 miles away. There's a middle schooler named Dennis Parnell, and he is living just like a pretty average uh pre-teen life in this rural area of California. Again, we're still in the '70s, and it's a remote area. Redwood trees, you know, you can, you can picture like hippie...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of cultures coming in.
Em Schulz: You can smell the incense from a mile away.
Christine Schiefer: You can smell the patchouli from here. Umm, uh like as an example in the docuseries, they talked about how people would like just climb a redwood tree to put a TV antenna on top so they could get like basic tv.
Em Schulz: Okay, Dad, like.
Christine Schiefer: I know it was, it was very funny. It was like, uh just one of those very small rural towns that hadn't quite hit like the technology age you know and they were like kind of still, still kind of hippies in that way. Dennis spent a lot of his time outdoors. He ran around with other kids his age, and there wasn't, it was the same idea where there was not much supervision. Um. Kids could kind of just be out and about and there wasn't, even though there wasn't much supervision, there also wasn't like that much trouble to get into. Like, there wasn't like a huge, you know, illicit drug scene or anything. It was mostly just that they were kind of...
Em Schulz: There was just a lot of climbing redwood trees.
Christine Schiefer: Precisely, precisely. And one of his friends later said, "we did whatever we wanted and our parents just didn't worry about us." Another friend said we were, "he was free. We were all free. Like, we just lived out on the land, you know, just after school we just go out and and play."
Em Schulz: Winnie-the-Pooh.
Christine Schiefer: Winnie-the-Pooh it, you know? And so Dennis's friends could tell he had somewhat of a strained home life. Um. He lived with his father, Kenneth Parnell in a remote cabin. He would come to school and his friends would notice that he had, uh, very old clothes that weren't washed very often. His shoes had holes in them. He never had socks uh that you know he could wear with the shoes. Uh some kids at school teased him for this, but he still managed to make friends because he was a very kind kid and he was fun to be around. And some parents actually thought kind of the opposite, that Dennis was spoiled by his dad because Dennis would smoke cigarettes and drive a car, although he was only allowed to drive it like down the block and back. So it's not like he was like going on joy rides.
Em Schulz: You know he was bragging it up though to people. He was like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh this car, oh, this bad boy.
Em Schulz: He's like, oh I'm just, I just coasted that bad boy a whole block...
Christine Schiefer: And his dad...
Em Schulz: You have no idea.
Christine Schiefer: And his dad's like, get back here. And he is like, oh I don't know who that guy is. Don't worry about it. Umm, so yeah, so some friends, some parents were like, "oh, that boy gets too much freedom," you know? But his friends actually disagreed and they said, uh they described like the kids at school, their families would be, basically, they would divide people like classification into hippies and straights. You know, like the hippies are like the kind of woo woo whatever freedom.
Em Schulz: Like straight edge. Is that what it is?
Christine Schiefer: The straights? Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: It was a straight edge. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They're like the straight edge ones. They're like the, umm buttoned up you know more strict white collar folks. Umm and so they described Dennis, his dad as very much a straight, like, he was not hippie type. He was not.
Em Schulz: That's what I say about my dad too.
Christine Schiefer: That's what your dad says about your dad. Uh so anyway, Dennis was, uh very much in that same boat. Like he was pretty, he was considered a straight as well because even though he was allowed to smoke cigarettes and stuff, umm he was painfully shy until he really got to know someone. He got very good grades in school and was very attentive. He was well liked by his teachers. So there wasn't really that rebellious streak that maybe the neighbors had, like, thought they picked up on. But sometimes Dennis would go through these like patches where he'd be really depressed. Hashtag relatable.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He would cry quite a bit. And umm, he's, he would, when people asked about like his home life, like he had a girlfriend, umm who was interviewed and like you know if she ever asked like, about his home life and he would basically say his mom didn't even know he existed and he lived alone with his dad. And once his friends even pooled their change, so, and brought Dennis to a payphone to say like, "Hey, like let's call her up and tell her." You know and he said, "no, I don't want to."
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Umm another time Dennis started crying when he was out with his friends and he just said, "I wanna go home." And they're like, "okay. Like, we'll walk you home." And he's like, "that's not what I meant."
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Just heartbreaking.
Christine Schiefer: That's because they didn't know Dennis Parnell was really Steven Stayner.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." How did I not see that coming? That was beautifully said, Christine. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I tried to keep it on the DL enough, but Steven Stayner had been abducted by a man named Kenneth years, years prior. And back in '72, Steven was walking home and Ken Parnell and another man named Irvin Murphy pulled up in their car, stopped Steven asked if his parents would be interested in donating to their church. And because Steven is such a good kid, and thought, "well, yeah, my mom loves the church and would love to donate." He said, "yeah, my mom does support the church." And they said, all right, "well, we'll bring you home to talk to her. Hop on in." And he hopped into the backseat of the car and went with him.
Em Schulz: That was also a time when people really would just bum rides from anyone, regardless of your age.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Like, it was like not that insane to just get a ride from a stranger in town, it was...
Christine Schiefer: No. If your mom didn't come pick you up, like why not hitch a ride? You know, especially in a small town, and you've been taught that like people from church are safe, right? Like, why, why would you question it? And so he gets in the car and when they pass his street, he tells them, "Hey, that's my street." But the men say they're going to call his parents and tell 'em he's staying the night with them.
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: So he's kind of just like terrified, but he doesn't know why or what's happening, and so he just has no choice but to go with him. So Irvin left and Steven stayed at Ken's house, and the next day Ken told Steven, oh, you're actually, your parents want you to stay one more night at my house. And then one more night and another, and eventually Ken told Steven, "oh man, I actually ended up getting permanent custody. Umm, and you need to call me dad now because your parents, you know, they're not really interested in having you back anymore. Umm, you, you know, they have five kids and they just felt like you were too much, so I'm gonna keep you here."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: But, you know, don't bother. They're not interested in, in getting you back.
Em Schulz: So at, okay. I I think you'll answer these later. So tell me to shut up. But as a 7-year-old, did he not know his phone number and like secretly try to call at any point?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, no. They basically told him, uh, I mean, I think he was probably strictly supervised at first. Like, I don't think they would've let him get near a phone.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But they, I mean, he's seven and he believes grownups. And so they tell him, "man, we just called your mom and she does not want you to come home. Like, he just fully believes that."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And he's seven. He doesn't really know why or, but you know, they can easily manipulate him and say like, "yeah, you know, sorry, it's too bad, but like, we'll take good care of you."
Em Schulz: My other question is, which you'll probably answer, is do do they think he like miraculously forgot about his parents, like seven? Do they think seven was a young enough age that he doesn't remember, or do they know he's still aware he was kidnapped?
Christine Schiefer: So do you remember when I said he would cry about his, missing his mom and that she doesn't even know he existed?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He had just been fed this story that like, they just got rid of him and didn't give a shit. And so when they were like...
Em Schulz: So he believed it. He fully believed it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. And so when, when they, um, said like, "let's call her," he is like, "no, I don't want to, like, it's not gonna do anything. She doesn't want me anyway." You know, like, just fully believed it.
Em Schulz: Which like has to be for in hindsight, when all this gets, you know, quote resolved, it has to be maddening to know that he could have just picked up the phone at any time, and like...
Christine Schiefer: So there are a few where it's almost like he tries and then doesn't quite get there, umm.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh. So sad.
Christine Schiefer: He, yeah. So Ken basically told Steven that his parents just didn't want him anymore, and his new name is Dennis and that he needs to call Ken dad, and that this is his life now. And, you know, uh, he talked about it and said like, it was just too scary. Like, he was just scared. He was scared of this man. Like, he didn't wanna argue back or fight him. Like he just, he didn't know what was going on, but he was scared. And so he did try to leave once, umm, he walked down this rural road until he was tired and scared and his mom was telling the story and like started like choking up because she was like, "he tried to come home, but again, they're 260 miles away."
Em Schulz: Yeah. He has no concept of...
Christine Schiefer: And he's seven. And like, he walks down the road in the dark, and by the way, the last time he walked alone down in the, down the street, something terrible happened. So, you know, he's walking down the street, he's just has no clue where he is. No idea. And, you know, of course has never been prepared for a situation like this. And so he just turned back and like, kind of just had to get used to it. So over the years, as he kind of grew up and realized what you were saying, Em of like, did he ever realize like maybe this was a lie?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He did. He started thinking like, okay, well this was clearly a story to manipulate me, but he also had the second kind of thought afterthought of like, even if I go home, like it's gonna be so different. It's been years. Like, I don't even know if like, I have a life here. It's almost like he just got transported into a new life and wasn't even sure what it looked like to go back.
Em Schulz: What's that? What's that quote we both hate the devil you may know or whatever, or the devil. It's the devil you know is... It, but anyway, it's like the, it's that, yeah, this might be uncomfortable, but at least this is, this feels normal.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I don't know what's on the other side of like that part.
Em Schulz: Right. It could be worse. So maybe I should just like not ruffle feathers and be fine.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And he's still living in fear of this guy. I mean, this guy is like totally unhinged, obviously who takes a child off the side of the road. Umm, and by the way, he's sexually assaulting him regularly. So like on top of being...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: His quote dad, he's now like, you know, being sexually assaulted by this man. And so, you know, you have to just imagine in this almost prisoner situation, like you just have to make the best of what you have. And so when he's allowed to smoke cigarettes and have friends, he is like, "well, I guess this is my life. I guess I, I guess I can live with this for now."
Em Schulz: I'm surprised that they even let him have that kind of freedom as a kid. That was a...
Christine Schiefer: I think that was more as like a, oh, isn't this great that you get to stay here? Your parents would never let you smoke cigarettes and drive the car. You know, I think it was almost a control thing.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Like, look how much freedom we give you, it, like just a mind fuck, you know.
Em Schulz: It's almost like giving, giving him a little bit so he'll never question for more.
Christine Schiefer: Like a leash... Yeah. Lengthen the leash a little bit just to be like, you'll stay here. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Look how lucky you are.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Don't question things. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. Umm so Ken noticed how comfortable Steven had become in Comptche, all the friends he had made, and he was, Ken became very concerned for good reason that, Steven would uh confide in a teacher, in a friend. You know, he had already kind of hinted at it, but he thought, Ken thought, this can't be, we gotta get outta here. So basically he uproots Steven from this home that he's finally created, and they moved to another rural town. And Steven basically, his life just closed around him because now instead of a house, they're living in a remote shack.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Steven is no longer allowed to do extracurriculars at school. He's no longer allowed to spend time with friends. He's basically like suddenly isolated because I think the older he got, the more Ken was worried that he would take it upon himself to like leave or go find answers or go call his mom.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so he just stopped trusting him and decided, no, you have to stay basically like shacked up here. Now that Steven was a teenager, Ken also decided he wanted a child to replace Steven.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Because Steven's getting older?
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he takes Steven out to help him lure a young boy into his car.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: But Steven intentionally sabotages every single attempt until Ken is like, "you know what? Fuck it. You're not coming along. I'll find another recruit."
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Leaves Steven at home and gets another teenage boy, Randy Poorman to help him abduct another child. So one day in February, 1980, Steven gets home from school and there is a five-year-old boy named Timmy living in the house suddenly.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: And Steven...
Em Schulz: And how, how old is Steven now?
Christine Schiefer: Uh he's a teenager, so I don't quite know what year.
Em Schulz: Is he old enough to like...
Christine Schiefer: He would probably be like...
Em Schulz: Drive.
Christine Schiefer: 14, 13, 13, 14.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and so not quite, no. Umm, 13, 14. I mean, he probably can, 'cause it's the '70s and he drives his dad's car around, but...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think he has access to a car or anything like that. So Ken had abducted Timmy while he was walking home from school over 50 miles away in Ukiah, California. And Steven, like, talk about his fucking heart sinking when you walk in the door and you're like, "Oh my God, I sabotaged every attempt. And he still abducted a child and brought him home."
Em Schulz: Al-also, also think about like the, the flash, the flashbacks of your own kidnapping.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: That you, that you have to witness. And like, and also not just the flashbacks of the original kidnapping, but the flashbacks of like the first time you were assaulted.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And like, knowing it's about to happen to him.
Christine Schiefer: And you know, you know full well with way too much detail what's about to happen to this other child?
Em Schulz: And it's like, how is, and it's not at all his responsibility to save this kid, but it's also like he also, I'm sure, felt obligated to...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Do something. And, but who do you tell? And if you tell are you gonna get hurt? Is...
Christine Schiefer: Is the kid gonna get hurt? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So many questions. So yeah. Steven's horrified and as he is like looking at this kid, he realizes I can't let him, kind of like what you said, I cannot let him go through what I did. 'Cause I know in excruciating detail what this kid is about to suffer through and I can't let that happen. So he becomes, Steven becomes determined to escape. So for two weeks, Steven makes sure never to leave Timmy alone with Ken because he at the very, very least wanted to protect the young boy from all the sexual assault he had endured.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So at the very least he was like, "I want to shield him from that." On March 1st, Ken was working a night shift and Steve, Steven was like, this is my moment. He's not home. I'm gonna seize this opportunity. He grabs Timmy, he just says, "come with me." And in the middle of the night they flee. They managed to hitch a ride and Steven held Timmy on his lap all the way back to Ukiah. They go all the way back to where this little boy's from and they find a police station. Steven walks in and says, "This little boy is named Timmy. I think his family's looking for him." And one of the officers told Timmy, "you know, we've been looking for you for a long time." Then they asked for Steven to identify myself. And he says, "Uh, my name is Steven Stayner."
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And the police must be like, what the fuck? They just told Timmy, we've been looking for you for a long time. Presumably like a couple weeks or days.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Meanwhile, like, this kid who's been missing seven years, walks into a police station with another missing kid. It just was like, talk about sensational. So he says, "Uh, my name is Steven Stayner. I'm 14 years old and I've been missing for seven years." And...
Em Schulz: This guy's fucking incredible.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: He's a hero. He is a hero. So back in Merced, Kay and Del are asleep when they hear, remember this is seven years later. Like they, they have processed much of it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Some of it at least they have kind of gotten into a rhythm of living life without Steven. They're asleep. And a police officer knocks on the door at 3:00 AM. When they answer, the officer says, "we're here about your son." They ask what had happened to Cary because their oldest son, Cary is in college.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they're thinking, Oh no. Like, did he get into a car accident? What happened?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they say, "No, we're here to talk about Steven." And at this point, Kay collapses because she thinks they've found his body. They think, she thinks, Oh no, the worst has happened. Steven's dead. She collapses. They say, "No, ma'am, your son is over at the police station in Ukiah and he's a hero." And she's like, what? Like, this is the last news they were expecting. And Kay and Del then learned that Steven had saved not only himself, but five-year-old Timmy. And you know, Kay had been following this abduction of Timmy in the news. So she knew about Timmy and he goes, "Oh, not only is Steven back, but he brought Timmy with him, the other boy that's missing." I mean, talk about pinching yourself, you know.
Em Schulz: Talk about the absolute best case scenario...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Of the...
Christine Schiefer: The wildest plot twist.
Em Schulz: News a cop could've told you about your missing kid.
Christine Schiefer: For sure. And so the Stayner's want to go to Steven right away, but officers are like, "Oh, he's still being questioned. You have to hold off." However, they let the media go into the station to talk to Steven. So Steven was interviewed by the news before ever seeing his own family, and he didn't inter...
Em Schulz: Which, yikes. That feels like since you're a minor...
Christine Schiefer: Horrible.
Em Schulz: You should have, someone should have consented on your behalf.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, horrible. It's a terrible, terrible way this happened. It's just like really, really fucked up. So he's holding Timmy and he's just like, you know, traumatized. Both of them traumatized. The media comes in, they're like, "Give us an interview." And he just sits there and he has to be interviewed before he can even see his own family. And he's holding Timmy the whole time and like wants to protect him. And so on March 2nd, 1980, police brought Steven home at 1:00 AM and there his family was waiting, of course, along with hundreds of people filling the streets. There were friends, strangers, reporters, they're all there to witness this reunion. You know, this is like national news. Steven's parents run up to him, wrap him in their arms, and then the media just like mobs them. And Steven's kind of smiling and he is like answering a few questions and they kind of have to push their way back into the house. And then Steven tells everyone, "Hey, listen, I wanna be alone with my family." And so they go into the house and of course the next day the reporters are still there. They're just hanging out on the property...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Wanting to, wanting interview after interview. And for weeks, this poor kid could not escape the media. Everybody's trying to buy the rights of his story off him. Everybody's like pitching TV appearances. Like they're writing up articles, they want quotes. And some of the attention was positive. Like the town of U, Ukiah, for example, awarded him the reward money that had been posted when Timmy was...
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Was abducted. But also like for the most part, this was just harassment. So in the 1970s, this is what media harassment looked like. They were allowed to walk into schools without any permission or...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Paperwork. And so these reporters would follow him into class with cameras just like filming him, like in math class. And they would wander into his locker with cameras and say like, Hey, and he's in 9th grade, so like he's at this high school, he's already had this traumatizing experience. He had a different life. Now he's back. And he can't even go to his locker without reporters like harassing him.
Em Schulz: Also, like I, I'm sure this is like kind of maybe a, a minute detail to it, but I would be, ever since I was seven years old, I would've been really freaked out about strangers approaching me and like not knowing like if I should even be talking to them.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And on top of...
Christine Schiefer: And now, there're swarms of grownups just coming at you.
Em Schulz: And on top of that and all of them saying, you can trust me with information, which like...
Christine Schiefer: And, and, and having demands, you know.
Em Schulz: And on top of that, another very minute detail that like is not really that important, but like, you're a freshman in high school, like the last thing you want is attention right now, like...
Christine Schiefer: No, it's not a minute detail. It's not.
Em Schulz: Oh, it's not. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's not.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's, it's, it's horrible because it gets so much worse. So the, the media's coming into the school, they're harassing him. He's in 9th grade. Like he just wants to be normal for once, right? And he wasn't allowed to answer ev... The other part of it that's really fucked up is that the police had already said to him like, "you can't say this. You can't say that this has to be kept under wraps." You know, as he...
Em Schulz: So they gave him media training kind of like...
Christine Schiefer: They gave him like rules. Yes. Of like what he could say and what he couldn't. But then he's like...
Em Schulz: About his own life.
Christine Schiefer: Being harassed and they're like, Oh, tell us, tell us, tell us. And he's like, I can't remember what I'm supposed to say what I'm not allowed to say like, how much is a secret? You know? And he's just trying to please grownups.
Em Schulz: And, and, and he can't even go home and feel safe and vulnerable with his parents because he was robbed of feeling an intimacy like that with them.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: That where he can confide in them. And I mean, maybe he's trying to, but it probably still feels kind of like awkward with them trying to like...
Christine Schiefer: Well it was because his dad knew him as a second grader.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And now he's a freshman in high school. Think about all that time where his dad like, was like, you, you know, I wanna play catch with you. And it's like, No, you know, like, it's just a totally different, like...
Em Schulz: Just like a strange...
Christine Schiefer: A rift.
Em Schulz: Like the parents too. It's like there's a random, I mean obviously you love them like a child, but it's still a stranger in your house. You have to relearn each other.
Christine Schiefer: You have to relearn...
Em Schulz: Who each other are.
Christine Schiefer: You know, the, the... I mean, a whole high school know knows him as Dennis.
Em Schulz: And you're, and you're relearning about a stranger in your house when they're going through like a whole new trauma compared to the last one that you knew them through. Like, or...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Didn't even get to know them through. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's just, it's all just really horrible. So he is so guarded about all of this. He's very guarded about, but he wants to please people, you know, he is been raised to please people and that's, he's trying to be a good kid and do the right thing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He doesn't know that he can set up a boundary here, you know, and he doesn't know how and nobody's helping him. So Steven was very guarded, especially about the sexual abuse that he endured. 'Cause like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Why would you ever want to go into that ever? Right? Especially...
Em Schulz: Ever. Es-especially in the '70s when extra taboo.
Christine Schiefer: '70s has a little... As like a boy, like in high school.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Em Schulz: I mean, come on. That's the last thing that you would want spreading. And so this investigation against Kenneth's pending and, uh, he's just really trying to not reveal this stuff about, uh, the sexual abuse. But when the police discover the child sexual abuse material of Steven, the media gets a hold of it and reports widely and publicly that Steven had been raped by his abductor. And...
Em Schulz: That's sick.
Christine Schiefer: Guess what happens? He goes to school and everyone is bullying him. They're... Not everyone.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But he's getting bullied. Umm, they are calling him homophobic slurs because they learned that he had been raped, uh...
Em Schulz: By a man. So obviously he's gay now.
Christine Schiefer: And all...
Em Schulz: Just not how it works.
Christine Schiefer: And all these people in the media are coming and saying, "Hey, we wanna talk to you about being raped." It's like, like talk about crossing every personal decency line you know?
Em Schulz: And again, in the '70s when you're a 14-year-old boy, I mean the, it like, it's hard in 2024 when people are like more sexually, like we're talking about that more publicly.
Christine Schiefer: Like sensitive and open. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but back then when there was, I'm, I'm sure there was no training on what to say and how to say it. And there was no PC culture on that, there... I'm sure he's even like, at some point, I'm sure he went through some, like having to question his own sex. Like he had to go through his own process with that, I'm sure of like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, I...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, everyone goes through their own, but imagine go, yeah. Having this, all this trauma happen and then having to figure it out. Plus everyone's like accusing you of things, making, mocking you. I mean, horrible.
Em Schulz: Oh God. It just feels like there's no, there's no moment in his life that is sacred or private or safe.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And that's, I think that's such...
Em Schulz: And you're already so vulnerable at that age. Like...
Christine Schiefer: It is. And like, you need that space. You need that, you need an outlet, you need a safe space. You need a person or a place where you can just like be, but he doesn't get, he doesn't, not even at school, not even in his class, math class, like he gets no privacy whatsoever.
Em Schulz: Like it's hard to be just a normal 14-year-old on like, but like...
Christine Schiefer: In general.
Em Schulz: And then to be a, a 14-year-old to be sexually assaulted, especially in that time period on top of having been fucking kidnapped and you lost your family for seven years. Like, like that...
Christine Schiefer: And then you were like, mind fucked into believing your parents didn't even like you and now you're back.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. The layers of... Oh my God. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: You've been, you've been literally given a new identity in a new town and then you get like alien transported back. I mean, it's all just, and then all of a sudden you're a hero...
Em Schulz: Yeah, you don't even...
Christine Schiefer: But then all of a sudden you're being mocked by your peers.
Em Schulz: And you're not even, I don't even know, like if, did he feel like a hero? 'Cause he probably was like, I didn't even wanna tell anyone about what was going on with me.
Christine Schiefer: No. I mean...
Em Schulz: And I, I had to do it for this other kid, and so like the...
Christine Schiefer: I think, let's just say the bad definitely outweighed the good in this case for sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Identity crisis. It, it has to be like, out of control.
Christine Schiefer: For sure. And a lot of the other aspect... I mean, he had a different name, like, and a different dad. Like, I mean, it's just so fucked up. Umm, a lot of the me, a lot of the, his peers, his classmates began feeling resentful because he's getting all this attention. He's on the front page of the news. And so like, of course that doesn't help the bullying because they're now a little bit like, Oh wow...
Em Schulz: Jealous.
Christine Schiefer: You're so important. You know, like you just get R-worded by somebody and you know, just the bullying is relentless and the media is not helping. And Steven's siblings unfortunately, because they didn't understand and they didn't resent him, but they kind of envied the attention he's getting from friends and his family and like, his parents are just like, lavishing him with like love and, you know... I mean, it must just be such a hard thing as a sibling too, to be like, "Well, I'm so happy that my brother's home but I feel like really neglected almost, or like an afterthought sometimes."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When he's like the star of the show. Umm, and he had a brother who, who really felt neglected when Steven disappeared and his dad just went into kind of hiding almost and wanted nothing to do with him. And it was like, he just felt like he got the, the shaft, you know, like...
Em Schulz: Well he also was robbed of an experience with his own parents 'cause his parents ended up having such like a, a clouded view of everything that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He, he lost his own mom and dad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They didn't have that joy with him that they did when Steven was around. And so when Steven comes back, it's kind of an extra mind fuck of like, "Oh, great, now my parents are so happy and he's on the front page of the news and I'm still just sitting here." You know, and it's like of course they're happy but at their kids.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I imagine... I mean, I imagine like if you're sibling of someone like that, there is like, uh, like probably some sort of like selfish secret thoughts of like, Oh, well now that he's back, you can finally be happy.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or like... Oh, well if, if... Now that we know he was fine all along, you could have had the joy with me and you never did.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like, it's, it's those things you would never want say out loud, but you probably think it in the, in the deepest darkest hour of just like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like the, a breeding ground for resentment like that.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like really, really personal resentment. And I think that was a, a huge, huge issue. And so, you know, he's going through this already, obviously. Umm, meanwhile, like you said, even at home, he's not really in a safe place because he's trying to adjust. He's trying to... He, he's in a safe place, I shouldn't say that. He's in a safe place with his family, but he, he's struggling to adjust to the way life used to be or whatever normal might look like. And Kay really wanted him to start counseling. But of course, Del was staunchly anti-psychiatric medicine. So Steven didn't even receive any therapy. Not even, not even a drop. Not even a minute.
Em Schulz: Okay. Mm. And so... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This teenager being forced to process his shit on his own with no support, uh, aside from like...
Em Schulz: So, he's not processing it. Let's be clear. Like he's...
Christine Schiefer: Well, he's not in a healthy way, you know. And so Steven often talked about his life as Dennis, which really pissed his dad off because like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: People didn't wanna hear about his life as Dennis. They're like, "You're not Dennis." You know, and it's like, there is that double sided coin of like, he had some good parts of his old life, even though of course...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It came out of a horribly traumatic event. But Kay said in an interview to him, "it was no big deal. It was his life. He lived it, he enjoyed some of it. He had good friends."
Em Schulz: But wouldn't you wanna know what happened to your kid when they were gone?
Christine Schiefer: She did.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I think it was just too much for the dad to handle. Like, he just could not picture, he couldn't understand why his son who was finally home wanted to talk about like this event that had happened. And I feel like I can see, I can see a little bit of both. I mean, of course it was not treated respectfully...
Em Schulz: I can...
Christine Schiefer: Like it should have.
Em Schulz: I can see that he doesn't want to revisit a place he's already been like so stuck in his head about for several years. But also like, you don't get to say, you know, "welcome home, son and tell me all about you, but don't tell me anything about you."
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: He just couldn't ha... He couldn't handle it. And so, you know, he liked to, uh, uh, occasionally tell his family about what had happened, what he did, what, what his life was like when he was gone. And Kay understood that, you know, she said "he enjoyed some of it. He had good friends, he had good experiences. That was a part of his life for seven years." And so Steven's friends from Com, from Comptche, imagine like, they just know him as Dennis.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine?
Christine Schiefer: They're like, Wait, what?
Em Schulz: You know, all of them at some point were like all hanging out like in a garage or something that they did in the '70s. Like they in a basement.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they all found out and they're all piecing it together, together. And they're like, "Oh, that's why he had the mom thing."
Christine Schiefer: That's why he said that.
Em Schulz: And that's why this thing, and he...
Christine Schiefer: Like, he would cry. And that's why his dad was such a creep.
Em Schulz: And he was so homesick.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it had to all come flooding. Talk about the mind blow of like someone you know going through that.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you know what's so... And so wild to see is like, they interviewed one of his former teachers and she said like, "Do you want me to call him Dennis or Steven?" Because like, and the producer said, Well, you knew him as Dennis. She's like, "Okay, thank you. Like, I can't pick, like I can only say Dennis, it's... " Or not only, but she was like, "I, that's how I know him, you know, as Dennis."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so it was just so interesting to see people to this day have different identities of him in their head. And so when his friends from Comptche heard about Steven's escape, they are floored. I mean, a lot of them of course feel guilty, like there's no way they could have really known, but you know, they feel guilty they didn't pick up on it, but they were in middle school and Kay wanted to talk to Steven about his life. Like she really wanted, she recognized that that was important to him to talk about his time in Comptche. And she wanted him to feel free about anything he wanted to. But like I said, Del just really was struggling and he had to learn that, you know, he had to accept that Steven was no longer a second grade little boy. He had grown up away and had come back. And so his dad is going through his own journey, right. And his dad had also like grieved him, like his dad had been convinced he had not, was not even alive. So to have him suddenly a teenager must be just like, what the fuck.
Em Schulz: Right. To have like, an out of nowhere reset button press to like...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: Go back to where you were.
Christine Schiefer: And to fast forward.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And to fast forward of like, go back to where you were and also add seven years.
Christine Schiefer: But it's completely different. Right. And so through high school, Steven continued to struggle. He began drinking heavily and smoking marijuana to self-medicate. He totaled a car, like he just was going through it. But as time went on, you know, he started to finally find peace wherever he could. Umm, he and his family began feeling like slightly more quote unquote normal or at least like stable, steady enough. And so after high school, Steven began working at a butcher shop, umm, and he was introduced to a woman named Jody. And he developed feelings for her, asked her out, and Jody said he wasn't one to mince words, he just said like, "Will you go out with me?" And...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she said, yeah.
Em Schulz: He's like, I've wasted enough fucking time.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Yeah. There's no time to be, to like read between the lines. Right. Umm, and so they didn't mince any words. They fell right in love. Uh, but Kate got married, got pregnant with their first daughter, Ashley. Umm, they had a son named...
Em Schulz: Not really waste of no time for sure.
Christine Schiefer: No time. They had a son named Steven Jr. And Steven began to settle into like a genuinely happy little life with his wife and children. He was an extremely involved and doting father. He loved spending time with his family, worked hard to support them. And so when he was contacted by a director who wanted to pay him for the rights to his story to make a movie about his whole, whole case, his whole childhood and his abduction, he said, "Ah, sure. Why the hell not?" And that is the end of part one.
Em Schulz: Part one. Jesus Christ. You would think that'd be the end.
Christine Schiefer: Well, part of the... Oh, no, no.
Em Schulz: You would... You would think that would be the end.
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: Especially like you tied it up with a little bow of he got married, had kids, they're happily in love and he ended up getting movie rights sold. Like that's... That's the end.
Christine Schiefer: You know, at the end they...
Em Schulz: You can just, you can just stop.
Christine Schiefer: You know at the end. You get like a glimpse of like, Oh, maybe the villain is still out there. You know, it's sort of like that. Or you're like, Oh...
Em Schulz: It's like there's like a...
Christine Schiefer: The sequel's coming.
Em Schulz: The director is actually a shadow looming over him as he signed for contract.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like everything's happy for now.
Em Schulz: Uh. So is it a different crime then next week or is it like, 'cause it's...
Christine Schiefer: Umm no, it's basically the aftermath of this whole story and how it was turned into a made for TV movie and kind of the fallout about that and...
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, I hope you talk about what happened with, uh, fucking Ken because we never heard, like all last...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Last we heard was, uh, Steven ran out with Timmy, like literally ran away and went to a police station. I still have yet to hear that like, Ken comes home and realizes he's not there and turns on on the news and goes, oh fuck. And then just like...
Christine Schiefer: And realizes neither of them are there. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And yeah, and then there's a ken shaped hole in the wall as he bolts to like Mexico. That's what I'm imagining happened. So, okay. Looking forward to it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that'll be part two. Umm, so En uh, suggested their theories, umm, anybody else chime in?
Em Schulz: Send in yours, comment below, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Like subscribe, blah, blah, blah button for notifications. Yeah. I feel like that one is just, uh, it's been a long time coming that I cover this 'cause that it's just been very heavily...
Em Schulz: Talk about having ups and downs. I mean that's a definitely a captivating story, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Well, so the, the people at uh, Lifetime or whatever also believe so.
Em Schulz: Oh well. Umm, wow. Okay. Well how's your Miller Lite?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, much needed. Thank you. I just had a big sip.
Em Schulz: Do you feel like you're at the Red Onion saloon? Probably not.
Christine Schiefer: Let me, let me think.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Do you feel like a, a calling a call a a a woman of ill repute.
Christine Schiefer: Who smells so bad.
Em Schulz: A call girl.
Christine Schiefer: Somebody smells really bad.
Em Schulz: It's me, it's me...
Christine Schiefer: Ah. Anyway, umm, thank you guys for listening. We're gonna go do a yappy hour and if you wanna join us, you can head over to Patreon and do that with us. I think we have been kind of yapping about this, that, and the other. So we'll see what we yap about today.
Em Schulz: All I ever wanted to do was grow up to talk a lot and now I get to do that. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Well we are in the literal only career where that is exactly what we get to do. So hooray.
Em Schulz: So follow our journey on Patreon. Umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
