Em Schulz: Hello everybody. Uh, live from Newark. Just kidding. But soon, you...
Christine Schiefer: Very soon.
Em Schulz: Very soon, we're about to have our very first, uh, show of our Poor Decisions Tour in Newark, New Jersey. And...
Christine Schiefer: Why wouldn't you wanna come out on a Thursday night to see a bunch of creepy ghost footage and drink wine with us? Come on. Come on.
Em Schulz: You know, Thirsty Thursday, you little rats. Time to go get a little fucked up. Watch a couple ghosts. Uh, and, uh, I don't know, though honestly, you might, you might see some things you never wanna see again, uh, because they're gonna be so funny that your eyes will fall out of your head.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, um, I hope that doesn't happen, but, um, it might, uh, you never know. At one of our live shows, things go a little haywire. So come out and see us. You can buy your tickets at andthatswhywedrink.com, and we'll be in a city near you, hopefully starting with Newark. So come on New Jersey step it up. Let's... Let's play, let's party. And then we're in Sleepy Hollow. We have lots of stuff coming up. Bye.
Em Schulz: Goodbye.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, well, well, we're back at it again, folks. It's another And That's Why We Drink Episode, and it's 394. How are you doing today, Emothy?
Em Schulz: Uh, I... You know, I'm so actually tired.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, you don't say. That doesn't sound like you at all.
Em Schulz: Well, uh...
Christine Schiefer: There's a first for everything, folks.
Em Schulz: We move the day after tomorrow, and I...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Yesterday, yesterday we started packing, so, um, which we're almost done. I, it's only the troll hole that's left really. But, um, yeah, it was just, it was just a long day yesterday so these bones are aching.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a nightmare truly.
Em Schulz: We were... We've had to do, oh God, it's been such a nightmare with this house, which like, I'm not surprised by it. Like, I went into getting a house.
Christine Schiefer: Like you knew. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. I... I went into it anticipating being disappointed every step of the way and things being twice or thrice as long as expected.
Christine Schiefer: And expensive. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And expensive. So every single time bad news hits me, I just go, well, saw that coming. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. The other day I caught the stove on fire and I checked my ring, uh, my Oura Ring like app, and my heart rate hadn't even accelerated by one beat. And I thought, this is troubling actually. [laughter] I think, and I'm not kidding you when I say it was like out of the sims, like there were flames like shooting out.
Em Schulz: House on fire. House on fire.
Christine Schiefer: And I was standing there and I wasn't even doing the Sim like peepee dance or whatever they call it, where they're like jumping up and down. I was just kind of, I was just... Said, okay, that sounds right. This, this seems about correct.
Em Schulz: That's even more like the Sims just standing there.
Christine Schiefer: I was trying to make broccoli. Like, I just stood there like a sim, uh, who is glitching, and I was trying to make fucking broccoli. Like, who am I? I was like, I'll do something healthy today for Leona and me. And then I just...
Em Schulz: Were you boiling it? What were you doing?
Christine Schiefer: No. I put a bunch of frozen broccoli straight into a frying pan. And I don't know why it immediately caught on fire, but Blaise said, of course it did. So I'm sure there's some sort of logic there that I'm just missing. Um, but yeah.
Em Schulz: Like it caught on fire in the pan or the, like, like was it like there was leftover crud from a previous meal?
Christine Schiefer: No, it was in the, it was like the pan, it was like the broccoli hit the pan and like everything went up in flames and I thought, it's made of ice. How is this happening?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, but I'm sure there's some physics.
Em Schulz: Only you could set ice on fucking fire.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And Blaise acted like, duh. And I was like, what, what do you mean? Anyway, I just feel very, um, out of sorts in the same way, Em, where it's like things just happen and I'm like, yep, that seems, yep. Right on, right on track. Right on cue.
Em Schulz: Do you wanna know something that is, um, absolutely breathtakingly awful?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Yeah, sure.
Em Schulz: Which... This is one of those things where I went, okay, well I saw that coming.
Christine Schiefer: Tell me.
Em Schulz: I didn't see it coming. Okay. So we have, uh, a power line that we need moved so that way we can build the studio.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh, right, okay.
Em Schulz: Um, because right now there's like a wire that's kind of like drooping and so...
Christine Schiefer: Dangling.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So we can't, it has to be moved to get like, like...
Christine Schiefer: Well, you gotta call the city.
Em Schulz: I did. And I called the city, and apparently they were like, oh, it's gonna be like 400 bucks for us to get out there and move this thing just like over to the side. To just kind of like shifted over. And I was like, okay, great. So, and then they were like, but actually, just so you know, like we're not actually the right people. You're supposed to call a specific department and set a whole... Everything has been waiting five business days for someone to come out to tell me that I actually called the wrong people and someone else has to come out. It's been like months and months and months.
Christine Schiefer: Right. That's it. That's it. That's it.
Em Schulz: So finally the right people come out and they're like, oh, well, yeah, if you, if you, if you could move it over to the side, it would cost $400. But actually, uh, I, without triangulating myself and giving specifics the way that our house is, um, apparently we can't just move it over to the side and it has to be buried underground aka a whole excavation team has to do construction on our yard.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And so instead of $400, it is $10,000.
Christine Schiefer: No. Oh, sorry. I just broke my computer. Are you serious?
Em Schulz: It... Absolute. I just went, I guess I'm not having a studio. I guess the troll hole is just fucking over, just not gonna happen, so.
Christine Schiefer: Why don't you just leave the wire and see what happens. I mean, honestly, if it all goes up in flames, like it happened to me, it's fine. You'll be okay.
Em Schulz: Well, it's, it's not broccoli. I can't just like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, so anyway, that was absolutely a wild ride. And so now we've had to like, I mean, it's one of those things where I'm kind of like, well, if we want a studio, it has to happen.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, what can you do? Like you just, it's like when we were putting our garage together and they're like, well, there's a, a, what do they call it? Supply chain issue or whatever the fuck. And so now, instead of, uh, like $5,000, a garage door is like 40... $14,000. And you're like...
Em Schulz: Like how is that possible?
Christine Schiefer: And it doesn't even matter. You can be like, explain it to me. And they're like, okay. But you can't change it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like in their... They said upwards of, and I was like, that's... And so I was like, okay, so I'll find anyone else then. But that was, um, that was...
Christine Schiefer: That's a doozy my friend. That's a doozy.
Em Schulz: Insane. That was insane. Um, and that doesn't even, that's to move a power line so we can begin paying for construction.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't even like... It doesn't even affect you. Like, it's like, it's not even like you're gonna see any results or anything. It's just...
Em Schulz: No. Like now we just have to add it to the budget of like building a whole room. Like that's like, so it just doubled or like, I mean, definitely more than doubled. We already like had it in our budget, that's gonna be like, a, a whole situation. It's a whole situation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I have like cold sweats just thinking about it.
Em Schulz: But like, that's like, that's a whole fraction of what we were planning on paying for the entire fucking studio and now it's gonna be, I mean, it's just like breathtaking. Um, so that's one thing. Also, uh, we're now... Another thing we did is we like paid for, um, painters to come, not just painters, but we also have like wallpaper. We have some, like someone to do, like trim. So we paid for these people to come out for like a whole week and like do all this stuff. Day one, they fuck up and we ended up kicking them out of the house.
Christine Schiefer: What did they do?
Em Schulz: They... It was just like they, uh, so we needed them to paint...
Christine Schiefer: The hung a big power line over the garage.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, no. It was the, the painting was fine, but uh, we needed them to sand the walls first because the previous people who lived there had, did like this whole like, like wood art piece on the wall that like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes. It was like clapboard or no, what do you call it? Like, um, uh, shiplap.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it was, but it was like raw pieces of wood that they like tried to create as...
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's splintery.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was very splintery. So no matter, even if we liked it, it was gonna have to get fixed. It was clearly like a COVID project.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like a DIY thing.
Em Schulz: Um. And I'm, I'm sure for some people it like looked cute, but it was not...
Christine Schiefer: Like it looked cool, but...
Em Schulz: It was just not our thing. It was very farmhouse and like, that's not our vibe.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and so they had to take all that off the wall, then they had to sand the wall to even paint the wall. Um, and then on top of that, we were doing the thing where like half the wall is painted, half the thing is wallpaper, and then we wanted trim in the middle. So it became this whole thing where every step of the way they had like an excuse for why they should come the next day, and then the next day and then the next day. And then on the day where they actually showed up and did it, they said that they didn't know how to put up wallpaper. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, I can put up wallpaper. So anyway, we had paid like a certain amount upfront and then we were gonna pay like the next half after they were done. When we kicked them out, we were like, honestly, just take our fucking money, get out. Because like, they like, like they didn't, it took them like a whole...
Christine Schiefer: How did you find them?
Em Schulz: We found them on, uh, like o-online somewhere. And they had, like, they had, I, I guess good reviews. Allison's the one who saw them. But I guess they, um, we looked later and I guess they had more mixed reviews than we were prepared for. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. See, yeah, you gotta hit me on that. I will delve... I can skim those reviews like nobody's business.
Em Schulz: Well, so guess what? So we gave them like a, like, it wasn't half, it was like 25, it was like a quarter of the money up front. Um, but they still, we ended up in the red and now I'm doing all the painting and the wallpapering and trim. And so I... Somehow, I'm doing it for $0 and I also lost money even though I'm the one now doing it. Um, so it's...
Christine Schiefer: You paid someone to do it yourself. That's really, that's really...
Em Schulz: It's truly like, it just hurts my feelings.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly. That feels very on point. Like my mom just had the floor sanded at their house, and then afterward there were these huge divots in the like, original wood flooring. And my mom was like having a, as Eva likes to say, having a cow over it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And she... Eva just was like...
Em Schulz: She was really teed off, you know.
Christine Schiefer: She was really teed off and having a cow. And, uh, she was so PO'd that she actually ended up purchasing, not renting, purchasing a sander and sanding the floors herself. And I'm like, you just paid someone like an arm and a leg to do this. And she's like, well, they didn't do it right. You know? So this feels like very home ownership. Um, yes.
Em Schulz: I mean, it was, so anyway, the, the paint is done, the wallpaper's done, the trim is done, but uh, it... Had we just not paid anybody from the beginning, it, I would have made money somehow with girl math that like... So anyway, um, it's just all of this on top of like, now we're, we started packing yesterday. Uh, and also like the troll hole. I mean the troll hole is where I record, but it's also full of all of my personal tchotchkes. Like I would say half my belongings fit in this room alone.
Christine Schiefer: It's like your man cave. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And now that there's definitely no studio, there's not even a, a free space without wires to put a studio if we wanted to. So half of our stuff is going to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Where are you...
Em Schulz: I mean, get a, get a storage room I guess or something. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Um, until I'm assuming I'm just gonna guesstimate a year from now I'll finally have a studio 'cause I'd like to just be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't take. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Not get your hopes up. Yes. Agreed. That's always my advice.
Em Schulz: Um, it's mine too. Just always prepare to be disappointed. Um, so until then, I just, all of my, all of my fun just gets to go hide away somewhere because we just don't have room for it. So I'm... You know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But think about the day when you get to unpack and you're like, oh my God, I forgot about my cocaine straw and my troll. You know, like all these fun things.
Em Schulz: You know, that's a good point. I am already putting things, I'm already organizing things in boxes from like, least to most exciting to open later. So then it's like a little Christmas present opening.
Christine Schiefer: A Christmas... Yeah. And you should... You should wrap them. No, you shouldn't. You don't have time for that. I know, but it's a good idea.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." If I had more than 48 hours before I'm out of here...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like I have a plan. Allison's gonna come strangle me with her own hands in like five minutes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, but, so anyway, I'm going to, I'm not gonna, I'm not too worried about getting everything outta here because we still have like the week, like we're here through the end of the month. But like moving, moving day is...
Christine Schiefer: I see. That's like a thing.
Em Schulz: So like if I want movers to do it for me, it has to be done 48 hours.
Christine Schiefer: Has to be done. I see.
Em Schulz: And there's a lot of things that I've bolted to walls here. So I think for the next few days after moving it, I'm gonna be like, just unscrewing things.
Christine Schiefer: I've tried to get you to staple things and you never agreed to that. So that's not my problem.
Em Schulz: You know, for once in my life I wish I fucking stapled everything to the walls. It'd be so much easier.
Christine Schiefer: You'd think so. But then when you move out and you don't get your security deposit, 'cause there's like 45,000 staples in the wall, then you will suddenly regret that decision. I've learned that the hard way.
Em Schulz: Well, anyway, so I'm, I'm doing all that on top of all the moving and us preparing a show.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That part's not good.
Em Schulz: I'm also planning Deirdre's bachelorette party.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay.
Em Schulz: Everything happens in threes, my friend. I am so god damn tired. Um, so...
Christine Schiefer: But isn't that nice to know that the threes are there. 'Cause sometimes it thing... Two things happen and you're like shit, the shoe's gonna drop.
Em Schulz: I literally have a countdown. Uh, like I'm, I've decided I'm just going to be so tired and stressed until the weekend after our first show.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And I like have a countdown of that day. And I'm like, I'm gonna be so happy that day.
Christine Schiefer: That's smart. I'm gonna add it in mine too.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna be so happy that day.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Great idea.
Em Schulz: Um, so anyway, uh, that... You didn't even ask why I drink, but that's why I drink. I'm just like all over the place.
Christine Schiefer: I mean I think it's a given. Yeah. I think it's a given.
Em Schulz: But things are, I at least have, um, most things are packed. The walls are done. Uh, I have a location I already Airbnbed and booked for the bachelorette party.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yay.
Em Schulz: And we're, we're very, we're very close, uh, with all this footage. I, you and I are having a phone call after this, but we're...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, we are.
Em Schulz: So things are... Come... I'm, I'm less stressed than I was a week ago, let's put it that way.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's good. Okay. No, that's actually a huge... I, 'cause you know, I've learned the hard way it can keep going up. You think you've reached the peak and then it keeps going up. So I'm glad that at least it's like slightly diminished, dipped this week.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Fingers crossed. I'm more stressed than I will be next week. So, you know, it just keeps... You know.
Christine Schiefer: That would be great. Let's keep the trend going.
Em Schulz: Why do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: Oh man. Well, I'm like drenched in sweat now just hearing about all this, so that doesn't help. But, um, I...
Em Schulz: If you wanna give me $10,000 for a wire, um, that already exists.
Christine Schiefer: Um, you know what? Can I tell you something? I do want to. I'm not going to, but I do want to. Um, can I? No.
Em Schulz: It's just... It's the worst thing that's ever happened to me so far. Like, I, I guess I haven't...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh-oh. Okay. Well I wouldn't go that far.
Em Schulz: And in terms of getting this house, that was the first like, oh, welcome to home ownership. Life sucks.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, that was the first time for that.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, I don't know. I probably never bitched about, I mean, maybe I did bitch about my wallpaper, but, uh, I bought of course fancy Anthropology wallpaper and um, the person who came to do it said, this is not normal wallpaper. Like this is like the old ass like, you gotta soak it in the right solution and then match all the drawings up. And I...
Em Schulz: You know they said the same thing to me. That's why they decided not... That they weren't gonna do the wallpaper after we paid them 25% to do wallpaper.
Christine Schiefer: So, but you were able to do it?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So then...
Em Schulz: It was not hard.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Then I don't know what, maybe I should have called you, but yeah, this woman, I had to hire her. She drove two... The only person I could find to do it drove two hours to be here to do it for me. And it was an arm and a leg. But anyway. That's so boring. I'm sorry people. Um, point being, uh, why do I drink? Well, I drink on your behalf, first of all.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm always happy to.
Em Schulz: Everyone drink for me. That's a, it's a, that's a financial fiasco. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It sounds, it sounds like it. Um, but in reality I drink because yesterday, I'm proud to announce, Alexander and I recorded our 300th episode of Beach Too Sandy, Water Too Wet. I can't believe it. Wrong button. Oh. Unless...
Em Schulz: What sound was that? What sound was that?
Christine Schiefer: Wah, wah. Wah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Wait, hang up. I, I really thought I was giving you...
Christine Schiefer: Wrong button or right button?
Em Schulz: I really thought I was giving you the applause. Hang on. Is it this one?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I mean, that's a magical fairy wand, but I'll take it.
Em Schulz: Fuck. Okay. Imagine that it was the right sound.
Christine Schiefer: It was a lot of applause. Well, I will say, honestly...
Em Schulz: So sorry, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, the first... The first one actually fits better because you know what we fucking did for our 300th? We read one star reviews of our own podcast. So the wah...
Em Schulz: That's actually genius though.
Christine Schiefer: The wah wah actually fits super well. And I will say...
Em Schulz: Did I hurt your feelings?
Christine Schiefer: No. Not as much as I thought. Not at all, actually.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And I, I think we've finally either grown to a place or we, uh, had people select reviews that were not as maybe hard to read. But I think my favorite one, uh, spoilers right here, if you're going to go listen to the 300th episode, but my favorite one is the last one, Alexander read, which was like a one star review. And it said, uh, these like, I can deal with the politics of these people. But the second Xandy started bashing, which like, it didn't really happen like this of course, but like started bashing our veterans. And this coming from a guy who complains when he has to wake up before noon. And I, I laughed so hard. I was like, this actually feels so on point for all, for all of us. You, me, Alexander like, just like bitching about waking up before noon. And then, um, you know, having the audacity to insult people. Um.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Not that we insulted veterans to be clear. That was very much, oh, and one person left a one star review because we once said something negative about Ricky Gervais. I have no idea what we said, but they were like, how dare you? And it was a one star. And we were like, oh my God, what have we done? So...
Em Schulz: Do you know I've gotten two different, this, I totally sorry to be, I'm not, I really wasn't trying to make it about me, but this feels relevant in my head. I got two DMs recently where people said that they didn't like that I was making fun of you, like talking, talking crap about you. I was like, if I... First of all I don't know when.
Christine Schiefer: Like to me?
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying. I'm like, if I did, it was to her face. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I would love to know about why, because I'm like, well I was probably there unless like you, unless they were like in a Starbucks with you and you were like bitching about me behind my back, like, like...
Em Schulz: No, they said like, I... Like on the show, like I did... I didn't care for you saying this. And I'm like, well, Christine heard it and she was fucking fine. So like, you're good.
Christine Schiefer: I can't even begin to rem... If, if it was about Ricky Gervais I would've flipped out. But it was, if it was about me then I don't care. I don't know. I like, I literally don't know. And Alexander and I were like, do we even have opinions about Ricky Gervais? I don't think so. I don't think I...
Em Schulz: Can you think of a single thing you would've said about him?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, we say so much shit, like you and I do, like we just say so much bullshit that it's like bound to I guess tee someone off. Um, but yeah, anyway, so that, that I, I just feel like that I've been all week dreading that 300th episode recording, 'cause I was like, what am I gonna have to...
Em Schulz: Oh, you're just gonna hurt your own feelings. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But actually it was very fun. And uh, it was, it was I think one of my favorite episodes we've done so, you know, if...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: If, if, if... And also somebody said recently, oh, I finally figured out what Christine says. She's saying Beach Too Sandy, Water Too Wet 'cause apparently I just say, oh, beachy is sandy. And a lot of people are like, what is she saying? Like, I don't even know how to google that 'cause I just say it so, I blur it out so fast. So, um, if anyone's finally like trying to figure out what the hell I'm saying, that's what I'm saying. Um, but yeah, you can go check out episode 300 where, uh, we make fun of ourselves quite a bit, so.
Em Schulz: Brilliant. What are we gonna do for our 400th in a couple of weeks?
Christine Schiefer: You wanna read one star reviews?
Em Schulz: No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wait. Say something quick about Ricky Gervais and it, uh...
Em Schulz: God, what a prick.
Christine Schiefer: Ah. Okay. Uh...
Em Schulz: Douchebag, right? Am I right?
Christine Schiefer: Dangerous Dave, DangerousDave141, time to write your one star review of...
Em Schulz: I'm actually gonna wake up at 11:00 and then I'm gonna talk shit about Rick Gervais. Um, so I'll get, I'll get back to you.
Christine Schiefer: That's a double whammy, man. We're gonna draw, we're gonna tank. Our ratings are gonna tank.
Em Schulz: Also, let me say something really nasty about you to your face and we'll see how people feel about that too.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fantastic. This is so exciting. Um, I love that I have nothing to do with any of it. I just sit here. That's great. Um, anyway, that's why I drink. I am... That's... I survived. I'm, it's over. I'm, uh, back to the regular scheduled programming. Um.
Em Schulz: Very proud of you. So that means in a few weeks you'll have done not including listeners episodes by the way, because if, if you count our listeners episodes, we've, we've far exceeded, we're almost at 500 episodes.
Christine Schiefer: Probably.
Em Schulz: If you count listeners episodes, in a few weeks, you'll have hit probably 800 episodes of recording in your life.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. Lord in Heaven. How?
Em Schulz: And that doesn't include Rituals. That's another 50.
Christine Schiefer: Rituals. 50. "Gasp."
Em Schulz: Someone should add up, uh, how many episodes we've actually done.
Christine Schiefer: No. I have enough hives for, for today. I don't need to like...
Em Schulz: 'Cause I would like to hit like on our thousandth. Are you kidding me? That'd be so fun.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Em, Em has such like a milestone thing that I just don't have. Like I don't, it doesn't phase me like a 1000. I'm like...
Em Schulz: Why don't you wanna be proud of yourself? That's amazing.
Christine Schiefer: I'm proud of myself on 1,001. You know what I mean? Like, I'm proud of myself. I think, I think I just don't have the same relationship to like a, a, a number, like a milestone, you know, in the same way. I don't know why though.
Em Schulz: I guess so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I, I, I hope, I hope to never have that. I love having my milestones. I like the...
Christine Schiefer: I like having them too. I just, I think if there...
Em Schulz: It gives you a moment to reflect.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think I just...
Em Schulz: And sit with like all you've done.
Christine Schiefer: I think I just do that too often to my own detriment. So I don't know.
Em Schulz: Remember 300 episodes ago, you were like, I'm gonna do an episode, a, a silly little episode with my brother. I wonder where it'll go. And now look at all you've done with him.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. And I am, I am very proud of that. I think if I just added up a bunch of numbers and decided it was a thousand, I wouldn't feel quite as excited 'cause I'm like, I probably did the math wrong. I don't know.
Em Schulz: We could probably get someone else to do it for us.
Christine Schiefer: But I'm excited for our 400th. That's coming up.
Em Schulz: You better get so excited that you consider it a real milestone and you're moved. 'Cause I'm gonna be moved and I'm gonna be sad if I'm the only one moved, so.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'll be moved. I'll be moved about that. I just, we, I just don't know what we're gonna do yet. So I think I'm, um, in the planning stages.
Em Schulz: I suggested billboard a year ago and now it's too late, I think. But maybe on our 500th.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I wanted a billboard for our 400th. That's all I wanted.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you suggest a billboard, what do you want me to do? You find a fucking billboard. What am I supposed to do about it? I have hives.
Em Schulz: And I'll do it on our 500th.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: I think I'm gonna... I think I'm gonna do it for our 500th and I'm not even gonna tell you. That's what I think I'm gonna do.
Christine Schiefer: Well, excellent.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's my ideal scenario.
Em Schulz: Perfect. I just want you to know, one day when you realize there's a billboard and you go, why didn't you tell me? I want you to listen to episode 394. And you agreed to this.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well you can tell me, but you, I'm just saying when you say let's do it, and I'm like, okay, what am I supposed to do? I don't know how to do a billboard any better than you do.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I'll figure it out. I'll, I'll let you know on episode 501 when it's already been out for a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But the options can't be tell Christine to do it or don't tell Christine anything and I'll do it without her knowledge. There has to be an inbetween.
Em Schulz: I wasn't telling you to do it. I was saying I want to do it, and then it just never... Didn't happen.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That is true.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So now for the plot though, I'm still gonna do it and now not tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Oh no. Okay. All right. I'll brace myself.
Em Schulz: Um, great. Okay. I'll see you on a billboard in a hundred episodes. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: What do you drink before we get into this?
Christine Schiefer: Nothing.
Em Schulz: Nothing?
Christine Schiefer: That was my mistake. Um... Shots.
Em Schulz: Do you need something?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, no. I'm all right. I, I will say we are, we just, I'm very excited 'cause we, uh, just, uh, well, I don't know if we're supposed to say it yet. Nevermind. This comes out in like three days. We have some fun merch coming up.
Em Schulz: Mm, mm, mm, mm, mm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, well, what do you drink?
Em Schulz: I drink water, but I also drink a little tea. I got my ADH-TEA several cups in front of me for different options and situations.
Christine Schiefer: See the problem is I have my ADH-TEA several cups in front of me, but they're all from days ago, so they're, it's just an old molded coffee now, so it's like, hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, Eva said we can tease the merch if you'd like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Um, so after Em's, wonderfully, uh, devised phrase of thirsty... Stay hydrated, drink up, you thirsty little rats. We're releasing some stickers and t-shirts with this like, adorably, creepy little rat on it. I'm very excited. I'm very excited about it. Um, so...
Em Schulz: It's prec... Very precious. I'm very excited for the sticker to go on a water bottle of the thirsty little rat.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. I feel like that will then maybe help me to remember for once. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, if you forget your water bottle downstairs, and there's no sticker to remind you.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And so that's... I already kind of feel the problem. Yeah. It comes out next Friday, Eva says, so that's exciting.
Em Schulz: I do kind of wish that we made the shirts upside down so people could look down at their own shirt and remember to fucking drink their water.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-ha.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But it just means everyone has to wear it so you just look around and you're like, oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Excellent, excellent point. Okay, so anyway, go get your thirsty little rat stuff and until then, just drink some water you thirsty little rats, including Christine, who has nothing but air to chug.
Christine Schiefer: Oopsie.
Em Schulz: Until then I'll drink water for both of us. And did I take my meds? Yes. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I did. I did.
Em Schulz: You did? How many meds do you have?
Christine Schiefer: Um, one, two, well, it depends. At night or in the day? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh man. In a 24 hour period.
Christine Schiefer: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... 6.
Em Schulz: Girl. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: 5, maybe.
Em Schulz: Excellent.
Christine Schiefer: Depends on the time.
Em Schulz: I... I just have two, but, um, until you count my Xanax, which will be right back in my cocktails in the next couple weeks...
Christine Schiefer: Hey. Yeah. That is not counting... That is not counting Klonopin. That is my base level. Um, unfortunately, but...
Em Schulz: Uh. Okay. Well, uh, drink some water you thirsty little rats, take your meds you silly little geese and, um, now I guess I'll tell you my story. This is the Black Hope Cemetery. And I'm very excited for this.
Christine Schiefer: Woo. I did get a slight spoiler only in that, Em, and I just had the tremendous honor of recording, uh, with Jim Harold for his paranormal podcast. Um, and that'll come out in September the day the book releases, which I'm really amped about. And of course, Em and I are just huge geeks every time we talk to Jim Harold. And he's the reason we keep saying teed off, 'cause in the beginning he literally said, this is teeing me off when he was trying to get his...
Em Schulz: And he meant it.
Christine Schiefer: And he meant like, not us, but like he was trying to get his technology to work properly. Like, he had this cool layout, this like very advanced setup. And he's like, man, this thing is teeing me off. And Em and I both like stared at each other through the screen. Like, did you just hear that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, and it was just so wonderful and sincere. But, uh, during that episode, Em mentioned, oh, I'm about to cover this topic. The bla... What is it? Black something?
Em Schulz: The Black Hope Cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Black Hope Cemetery. And, uh, Jim was like, I've heard of it, and I have not. So I'm very excited.
Em Schulz: Um, well, I like it because I feel like so many of my stories are just like combinations of like, at a hotel. Like, uh, like, it's just almost like a listicle of like what every, everyone has heard or experienced there versus there being like...
Christine Schiefer: No. Just bullets of... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Instead of there being like a story to go with. Like there's... It's so rare that I get to have like a, a full story following one person or one group of people.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, but this is one of those, so I'm very stoked. So, um, this is in 1980 and we are following Ben and Jean Williams, and they move into their home after Jean's doctor said that they need to move somewhere, uh, with better air for her allergies.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Okay?
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine a doctor being like, oh, I think the only solution is to move.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: After your week of moving, do you think that's helped your health any? Like no.
Em Schulz: It's like also move like still kind of close so I don't lose the medical. The money.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Also stay in, stay in my, yeah. Stay in my vicinity here, but, uh, move across town.
Em Schulz: Well, I think she was already like struggling with allergies and I think the doctor in passing said something. So there's just like, oh, I guess, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Might as well take, take the chance. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm already moving anyway. Maybe I'll find some, maybe I'll specifically look for good air as my qualifier.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: Um, well, they chose this neighborhood, which is, uh, in, it's in Crosby, Texas, which is near Houston.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, they chose this neighborhood, I guess it had great air, and also their oldest of three daughters lived nearby and suggested it for them. So it was this new neighborhood. So they would be the only people living there for a while. And it was surrounded by nature, probably hence the good air.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, they chose to build on this empty lot that was at a dead end. Seems spooky already.
Christine Schiefer: That seems like a great choice. Not.
Em Schulz: And they chose this one because it was backed up to the woods with a beautiful oak tree in the yard.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, that sounds nice.
Em Schulz: And when they were looking at the tree, when she, when, especially Jean when she's like, look at this beautiful tree. They were looking at it and they realized there were some weird carvings marked into the tree.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: There was a downward arrow and then two horizontal lines beneath the arrow. Like, I guess an equal sign.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, uh, they were like, well that's, that's funky. But, you know, trees have their quirks. Someone could have been here and drawn an upside down arrow.
Christine Schiefer: Just practice their arithmetic. Yeah. It's fine.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they're like, okay, well, whatever. But fun fact, we have a tree with some markings on it. So they, they move into the house and soon they realize that the house constantly has these really weird cold spots despite like Texan heat.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, and it's weirdly, weirdly cold, like blizzard cold. Um, and they kind of, I guess ignore it. 'cause I don't know what you do.
Christine Schiefer: Well, it must also feel nice, you know, in that heat.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, ah, actually keep it coming. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Come a little closer. Stand next to me spirit.
Em Schulz: I do wonder, like if I was experiencing that, like what would I do? I don't know. Call HVAC and like, just hope they know what's going on. And if they don't, I just keep it moving. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I guess.
Em Schulz: Um, but yeah, so they're like, okay, I guess it just gets cold sometimes. Ain't that silly.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But then another weird thing happens where within a few days of living there, they realize that that house has an ant infestation.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, they follow the trail and they realize that the bugs are coming, not the bugs, just ants, but they're coming through the window of the bedroom.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And when they follow the trail out, all of the ants are coming from the oak tree.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. That arrow was just like one of their signs, like to where directions, how to get back inside.
Em Schulz: Look down at all the ants. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Just follow the arrow.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Actually, uh, the upside down arrow was drawn in live ants. I don't know if you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh, there you go. That's no wonder it was wiggling. Okay. That explains it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And sometimes it's a, it's a right side up arrow. It just depends on the day.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So no matter what they did, they kept finding ants everywhere and, uh, they just, they couldn't stop it. I've never had to deal with a long term ant infestation, but I, we had one, one time at my mom's house and it was disgusting.
Christine Schiefer: Same. We had, we had them at my mom's growing up.
Em Schulz: Ugh. I don't know what it, like, they were like in your bags of bread and like in your food. It was like so gross.
Christine Schiefer: They go everywhere. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They're so tiny. They can get in anything.
Christine Schiefer: If I recall, it was pretty easy to... Like I would rather have ants than roaches, but like, I'm speaking to you. So I... You know, this is not any news to you.
Em Schulz: They were both gross.
Christine Schiefer: But I feel like ants are less like viscerally horrifying. You know?
Em Schulz: They feel like you get less like diseases from them or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Feel... They feel less dangerous somehow. Like, I don't know, 'cause the ants are like, oh, they're going to a picnic in my head.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They're carrying little crumbs of muffin. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Look how... Look how strong he is. Yeah. They're trying to feed the queen. Don't worry about it. Um, but I will say, I think it was pretty easy. Like, I remember we would use chalk and they like, don't go over chalk lines.
Em Schulz: Same with Sharpie marker apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So yeah. I think they're easier than roaches to like navigate.
Em Schulz: To trick.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. To trick.
Em Schulz: To bamboozle.
Christine Schiefer: To bamboozle. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, you know, there was, um, and also like my mom had, like, she doesn't still have them, I don't think. No, she doesn't. Um, but at the time she had like granite countertops that was like all the rage in the early 2000s.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But it was like, so it's dark gray and speckled, so you couldn't see anything.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: You just like would, would put your hand down and you'd feel yuck.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I can't tolerate that. So, um, these ants were all over the place. They could not get rid of them no matter what they did. And around the same time as the ants showed up, Jean started feeling watched all the time in their house.
Christine Schiefer: By thousands of tiny eyes. Who were waiting for him to drop a cup of bread. Yeah, I bet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Actually, in hindsight, I'm like, were they haunted or were they just feeling little antennae?
Christine Schiefer: Just, yeah, exactly. Sensing their presence.
Em Schulz: Antennae. Um, yeah, exactly. So, okay. So they've got these bugs, they've got this weird tree. They're having cold spots, and they feel like they're being watched. I'm assuming Ben also felt like he was being watched. But Jean is the one who I, I I... Was the one talking about this, so.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I'm assuming it was both of them. Soon she starts falling into these really dark moods, which she starts falling into a depression for no reason. Um, and she hadn't had that experience, I guess, in the past. So this was a, a new thing she was going through. They thought it would help to get away for a while. And so they went on this annual trip they always go on to Montana. So they went to Montana, and while they were away from the house, she was feeling really good. But as soon as they got back to the house, she was feeling like shit again. So, which I feel like is such a trope in these haunted houses of like, it starts to like infect you or it starts to sit with you whenever you're nearby. Um, so it helped to be away. But now she's feeling like crap again once they get home. So as a gift to kind of lighten her spirits or keep her company, one of her daughters buys her a little finch. A little bird.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And Jean ends up really loving the bird and actually buying a second one. And the two birds have babies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my goodness.
Em Schulz: They love each other. Um, and so Ben and Jean are, you know, like they got these pet birds, they're trying to make do with what they, they're, they're trying to make the best of this because this is a classic haunted house story where they cannot afford to move.
Christine Schiefer: They've invested everything into the house. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Invested everything. And also, like, so far it's not all that bad. I mean, they feel like they're being watched.
Christine Schiefer: And it doesn't seem clear that it's the house yet. Like I feel like they don't, yeah. They don't necessarily know that's what's causing it.
Em Schulz: She... She could have thought she was being, she was depressed 'cause she was, you know, going through an adjustment period with moving into the house, or she was overwhelmed with like, there being a bug infestation. But, you know, it has nothing to do with the house so far. So they're just trying to, I guess, get Jean in a better mood and deal with these ants. And, um, now they've got these little birds they're taking care of too. So while Ben and Jean are acclimating to this new home, one day, they realize that their land now also has like these weird sunken spots that won't go away in the land.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And so they were trying to, um, I guess she was trying to garden and there were certain areas in, in the ground that was just kind of like sunken and it wasn't taking the plants well, or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see where this is going immediately. Okay. Took me a little while, but I get it.
Em Schulz: And also, anytime she would plant anything, it would die immediately. Like, the soil was just not good.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. That's not a good sign.
Em Schulz: So, uh, they would try to fill in these sunken holes, uh, in the ground, and every time they would, it just, it almost looked like they were sinking even more.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Like, they just wouldn't fill up. So eventually the couple just said like, okay, we're just gonna have to tolerate the fact that we have patchy land. And one day Jean decides that she's going to plant a rose bush on part of the property that looked like it had good soil.
Christine Schiefer: Oh girl.
Em Schulz: She starts digging and all of a sudden there are several crows flying above her and truly out of a, an Alfred Hitchcock movie...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They swoop down on her and start attacking her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That, okay. That's literally the plot of an Alfred Hitchcock movie.
Em Schulz: Of birds. They literally swoop down. They're cawing and scratching at her and pecking at her...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And totally freaking out on top of her. And she runs inside.
Christine Schiefer: I think they're protecting something.
Em Schulz: Well, so when she runs inside, she looks back and sees that they have flown into the hole that she had been digging, and they're cawing loudly for no reason.
Christine Schiefer: Inside the hole? Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Uh, this was all very validating, I'm assuming for Jean, that like, okay, I'm allowed to be creeped out about this fucking place.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and around the same time, the house also starts having very weird power outages. Um, where only one room would go out at a time, even though they're all like, on the same power, like, uh, br-breaker box. Um, and so one thing that they would also start noticing is every day around 5:00 AM they would smell coffee and the house, the toilets in the house started flushing themselves all the time. Even in front of guests. This wasn't like a secret thing.
Christine Schiefer: This is so weird. Okay.
Em Schulz: So even in front of guests, the toilets would flush and the guests are just making fun of it, just being like, you've got some weird water thing going on in your house.
Christine Schiefer: It's like... It feels wacky.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Their, their granddaughter even, um, was quoted saying the toilets used to flush on their own. And as the water went down, I could hear almost conversations. You could hear people murmuring to themselves. It was something that wanted to be heard.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: It was also quoted later that in the house people would see shadows sliding along the walls followed by whispered words and a putrid smell.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord.
Em Schulz: Then they started seeing two specific, specific shadows, like shadowy figures that would dart around and they could like recognize them based on that shadow. Was so weird.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, they would hear footsteps so loudly that they thought an intruder was in the house. They started, I think, sleeping with a gun. Um, and Jean would even watch her tchotchkes move around on the shelf. At, at this point the ghosts were shameless. Like she was watching...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Clearly.
Em Schulz: She said that they looked like they were just dancing by themselves.
Christine Schiefer: They just didn't care anymore.
Em Schulz: So I think it, I don't know if it was the crows, that was the thing that like woke her up and like, thing like, like she tapped into something where everything was more, uh, willing to show itself.
Christine Schiefer: And maybe like digging into that... Maybe digging into that hole released everything.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe digging into the property is like, that was like, okay, like now we're gonna mess with you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Um, but anyway, so once that happened, that's when this whole slew of like real activity started kicking in.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: One night Ben was outside and he swears that through the window, he saw a darkness come out of the window and move towards him.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." From out... From outside of the... He was outside the house?
Em Schulz: He was outside. And, and through the window he saw darkness pass through the glass and come charge at him.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, even when I walk the dog at night, I'm afraid to glance up at my own house because I'm like, if I see something in there and Blaise isn't home...
Em Schulz: Game over.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I just, that would be the ultimate freaky freak.
Em Schulz: You know, you know what really freaks me out is eventually when we have a studio, the way it would be placed is like we would be able to see it from downstairs.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Oh.
Em Schulz: And I'm always, and that's where I keep all of our ghost equipment.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I'm like, I swear to God, I'm, I know one day...
Christine Schiefer: If you glance up. Oh, shivers.
Em Schulz: I know one day I would see something and I wouldn't know if it was an intruder or a ghost, and I wouldn't know which one I'd prefer. Like, I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, bad news either way. Bad news.
Em Schulz: So anyway, to anything, don't do that in the future. You're not allowed.
Christine Schiefer: Please, just, just stay... Stay, stay away.
Em Schulz: Um, anyway, so yeah, he's now seeing things like darkness float towards him. Another time he saw two figures. This is a quote from him. Walk backwards into the den.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Sorry. That really grosses me out for some reason.
Em Schulz: I hate it.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: They started heading... This is still the rest of the quote, he saw them walk backwards into the den. They started heading down the hall to Jean, and it was standing a foot and a half from the end of her bed. The only thing I really thought was, they ain't messing with my wife. And as I dove through it, I felt a sticky cold sensation in my body.
Christine Schiefer: Sticky cold. That's a new one.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I hate that.
Christine Schiefer: That feels... That feels almost like what people describe like that spider webby feeling, but like, cold, you know? Ooh. Ooh.
Em Schulz: I do appreciate that his like instinct was just dive into this thing.
Christine Schiefer: Just like fucking nail it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, charge at it. Um.
Christine Schiefer: I like how both of our instincts would be like, I'm just gonna like walk over here and text Em.
Em Schulz: I Would literally be like, um, no, thank you. Like please go away.
Christine Schiefer: Um, excuse, excuse me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Which like, I kind of wonder, I feel like there's, especially if it's intelligent enough to be walking through and then like, end up at the foot of your bed, it must be smart enough to know you're behind it. But how like the fact that he like snuck up on a ghost is crazy. That's weird to me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Um.
Em Schulz: That feels like something you can't do. Like in my mind, they're all knowing.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder, okay. I wonder if like they're just so hyperfocused on Jean that like, he's not even part of the formula.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so like he just happened to witness this happening again and he was like, I'm gonna charge in. I don't know. I don't know. It seems like they're more obsessed with Jean at this point.
Em Schulz: I think that's a good point. Yeah. And, um, uh, oh man, what was I gonna say? Anyway, whatever. So they're going through all this stuff. They have power outages. Their toilets are flushing by themselves. They are... Insert creepy fucking thing here. People are walking backwards throughout their house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, that part, I think alone is the creepiest to me so far.
Em Schulz: I mean, it's... And then they've got these bug infestations. They've got these weird crows. They've got these sunken holes in their ground. They, the water faucets are turning on and off. The TVs are turning on and off by themselves. They're hearing voices. And soon the dark energy starts attacking their extended family.
Christine Schiefer: Oh-oh.
Em Schulz: So Ben out of nowhere starts having severe asthma attacks, even though they're like an older couple and they've never... He's never had asthma before.
Christine Schiefer: And they moved for allergies, not his.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He's like, wait a minute, we gotta go again.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, now, I need Claritin.
Em Schulz: So he starts having asthma, like really bad asthma. Then all three of their kids announce that they're getting divorced at the same time. They're all going through divorces now.
Christine Schiefer: What? Wait. Can you imagine that dinner like, they're all like, I have something to say. I also have something to say. I also have something to say. Wait a minute.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You always one up me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Mine will be more expensive. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The middle child's like, great. Once again, I'm just left out in the cold.
Em Schulz: So they're... He's, he's now having health issues. The kids are getting divorced. Uh, one of their daughters also ends up experiencing mental health issues, which ultimately leads them to adopting, adopting or taking in their granddaughter.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, and their granddaughter's name is Carly. And when she moves in, by the way, she also starts noticing like cold spots and getting nightmares and things like that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Then on top of that, this, this is sad. Then Jean's mom is diagnosed with cancer. Jean's brother is diagnosed with cancer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Jean's brother gets a phone call that his granddaughter is now diagnosed with cancer.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." What?
Em Schulz: Then Ben and Jean's daughter, who's in her early 20s, calls him and says she was just diagnosed with cancer.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is going on?
Em Schulz: Mom, brother, great niece, daughter.
Christine Schiefer: The timing alone like that is f-ed up.
Em Schulz: Back to back to back to back to back to back.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And one of them is diagnosed with cancer. One of them's dealing with mental health issues where she has to kind of like, uh, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Give up custody.
Em Schulz: Give up custody. And like... And they're also both going through divorces at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And another one's going through a divorce. I mean, it's just... Like fuck Ben's asthma at that point, right?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. I know. He is just trying to be included.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So besides being overwhelmed with all that information, Ben and Jean are like, this is too fucking weird. Like, something is going on. It's like infecting our family.
Christine Schiefer: And they've gotta feel, I would imagine that like, even if they can't quite put words to why it's the house, I bet you they feel it. Like something's off. Like very off. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. As soon as they moved into that house and they felt like something was weird...
Christine Schiefer: Everything went...
Em Schulz: And now everything around them is like having really bad luck.
Christine Schiefer: Falling apart. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like health and wealth is all bad. Um, yeah. And, and there's no like proving that it's the property, but I would still have just like, beyond guilt. And then, and then on top of that, you can't, you can't afford to move. So in, in my mind, I would think if I could move, I could fix everyone and heal everyone. Which is like half crazy thinking, but also desperate thinking.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: In like a time like that.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: And so I would also be dealing with, with this great shame that like, I'm the reason all my family is going through this, so...
Christine Schiefer: You probably don't feel great yourself, so you're like, you're not in the best position to help. You're already feeling down.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And at the same time they're, she's already dealing with like intense depression before all that happened and now she has to like, like almost like...
Christine Schiefer: Step up and like try to...
Em Schulz: Grieve in advance while trying to support and all that.
Christine Schiefer: This all bad. All very bad.
Em Schulz: So on top of all that, then her bird family that she's raising, one of the adult birds attacks all the others.
Christine Schiefer: I knew it.
Em Schulz: Out of nowhere. This is like their, his babies or her babies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And all the birds die except two. Then I think it was later that day, Jean felt like something was wrong in, near the finch cage.
Christine Schiefer: That can't be good.
Em Schulz: She was like, something's wrong. So she lifted up the cover of the cage and the last two were also dead and covered in ants.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." What the fuck?
Em Schulz: There were also no ants anywhere else in the room. They seemingly appeared out of nowhere into the cage.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like were they flying into the cage? I guess they climb up the walls, but, Ooh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then on top of all of this, Ben has a heart attack. He survives.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Okay. Wow. Okay. I take it back that he was just trying to feel included. Sounds like he really was also going through it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Well, I, you didn't know yet. But no, he, so he has a heart attack. He does survive, but he has a heart attack. A while later, uh, Jean's brother, one of the people who's, had been diagnosed with cancer, he passes away but one of the last things he said to them was to move because something was very wrong with that house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Oh, do you think he had like that near, sorry. If you see scratch marks on my neck, it's 'cause I was doing it. I had an itch and I have terrible hives and eczema. So it's not a ghost.
Em Schulz: No, I agree with you. I feel like he might have had some sort of like, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Like clarity or something?
Em Schulz: Something from the other side or yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like close to death, you know, maybe you get like a little inkling of what's really going on.
Em Schulz: Totally.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: After he passed, Jean got a phone call later where she heard a man wheezing and like gasping for air. And then she hears her now dead brother's voice on the phone. Just say the word you and then the phone hangs up.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Eventually Jean's dad is also diagnosed with cancer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. They can't win.
Em Schulz: That's... All... I... That's... So she's got a mom, a dad, a brother, a daughter, I mean, uh, name every type of way you could be related to somebody and they're all dealing with like...
Christine Schiefer: This is horrifying.
Em Schulz: Sickness in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Like the worst kind of sickness.
Em Schulz: Both of her parents, a sibling and her kid are... All have cancer and her husband has a heart attack. I mean, that's, uh... You can't, you can't get worse than that.
Christine Schiefer: And her birds are like cannibalizing each other practically.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, Jesus.
Em Schulz: And all of her birds are dead, which was like... Which it feels actually like very symbolic that it was like one of the only things giving her joy.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: And they killed that.
Christine Schiefer: I know. That... I... 'Cause when you said they got, got a pet bird, I was like, something terrible's gonna happen to these birds. It's like, it feels like too easy for some dark entity to be like, "Oh, easy. I'll just knock those off too while I'm at it," you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Then they got a puppy. I'm just kidding. [chuckle] I was just... I'm just kidding. Just kidding. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I swear to God. You see my hives? They're reappearing. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Uh, but no. So she hears her brother's voice on the phone saying, "You".
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: Which then you wonder like, was that really her brother's ghost coming through? Was that like a doppelganger trying to like, fuck with her and like, make her think about her brother? Like was it just a guy who fucking actually was having an asthma attack and just said, "You" and called the wrong number?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But like, it, at the same time, it's like, there have been like trickster ghosts out there who just wanna torment you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like, what if they just wanted to make you suffer a little more?
Christine Schiefer: And I've heard those stories too, where people are, umm, who have passed, like can communicate. Thank you. Sorry. I asked Blaise to bring me a beer 'cause, umm...
Em Schulz: Hi Blaise.
Christine Schiefer: Hi Blaise. He says...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Silent wave.
Em Schulz: Classic.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "You can't trick me. You can't trick me."
Em Schulz: [chuckle] So, so he said hi in Capricorn. Got it.
Christine Schiefer: In, in, Blaise... Yeah, in Blaise speak.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But also he's like, you know, so professional. He is like, "I don't wanna mess up the audio." Umm...
Em Schulz: What? He's a good man.
Christine Schiefer: What a gem. He even opened the can for me. That was nice. Um...
Em Schulz: How's his face? Is it still cracked in half or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but he broke a rib. So, you know, we're just...
Em Schulz: Oh, dammit.
Christine Schiefer: Moving on from one thing to the next. Umm, anyway... What was I gonna say? Oh, have you heard those stories where people call from the afterlife? Like they...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like where you can almost use technology and like, it often sounds very far away and staticky.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So like, maybe he was trying to call to like warn them and it...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like he just couldn't get the full sentence out. Or like, she, you know, couldn't say the full...
Em Schulz: Like "you" was...
Christine Schiefer: Like, "You need to leave," or something.
Em Schulz: Either in, in the beginning, the middle or the end of the sentence.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Like, you got, you have to leave the house, but like, only you... And I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I just had another thought 'cause I've heard that, umm, that a lot of times right after someone dies, they're able to communicate with like, technology pretty quickly. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if that's true, but...
Em Schulz: No, that's a great, a great point. I've, I've heard really cool stories about like, people calling...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Even if it's just calling and it says like their name and then when you answer, there's nobody there.
Christine Schiefer: It's like blank or like a blank text message...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: With like, nothing in it.
Em Schulz: Ugh. So creepy.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, from your dead mom or whatever. I've definitely heard those.
Em Schulz: So creepy.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So cool, but so creepy.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, so, so, uh, reassuring in a lot of cases and so terrifying in some, yeah.
Em Schulz: If you die and don't send me at least one text, I swear to God person.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna Snapchat you. But you have to remember your password first to get... I actually don't...
Em Schulz: No, you... That's how you're gonna haunt me. You're gonna take, you're gonna make me have all the incorrect passwords.
Christine Schiefer: All the passwords are gonna be like, "I love lemon," and you're gonna have to type them out over and over and over again.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so remember their granddaughter, Carly, that they took in?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So, she's also experiencing things in the house. One night she hears footsteps by her bed and her cat named Smokey...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Was visibly ready to attack something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like, it was very clear this cat could see something that we couldn't.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: After that night, this cat became weirdly fiercely protective of Carly. And then one day, of course, went missing. When he came back a few days later, his behavior had completely changed. He refused to be touched by anyone. He refused to eat or drink, and he essentially was wasting away.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And the vets didn't totally have an explanation. They were like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He... Honestly, it sounds like that cat also had cancer. It sounds like the cat got sick and like, couldn't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Couldn't... Couldn't eat and was like getting really skinny and like...
Christine Schiefer: Just like debilitated almost. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or maybe the cat had like rabies or something. I don't know. But like, it sounds like the cat now also has an illness, so no living creature is safe.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels like it's just toxic.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they ended up having to put the cat down.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so sad.
Em Schulz: Two years into this. At this point, it's now eight, 1982. And at this point in time, other families have now started mo, to move on to the block, 'cause remember, they were the only people living there at first.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And now the subdivision is kind of filling up and people are moving in. And one of the houses is now lived in by the Haney family. I think I'm saying that right. Umm, Sam and Judith Haney, and they wanted to install a pool in their yard, but...
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Good luck.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wear a helmet. There's a lot of birds.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Wear a life jacket.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Oh, yeah. Wear a fucking hazmat suit. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Wear a helmet that makes you float, actually.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really nervous about these birds.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Can you imagine a crow seeing a, like a whole... Just a big pool of water and you're in there. Like, you know, you can't run as fast...
Christine Schiefer: You're fucked.
Em Schulz: In water.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry, but you're fucked.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they decide they want to install a pool in their yard. They call a construction company to, you know, start, uh, doing what they gotta do. And I guess a local who was driving by, his name is Lester Wrestler. Are you kidding me?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, it's not.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He comes to the house and he says, "Hey, I noticed y'all were doing some yard work and I just wanted to let you know I... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you sound just like him. Holy shit.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "Hey, I noticed y'all were doing some yard work." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Did he, did I say that? Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No, I love it.
Em Schulz: I, I s...
Christine Schiefer: It was like, I felt like I was there.
Em Schulz: As, as soon as I said Lester Wrestler, I was like, I'm, I'm in the zone.
Christine Schiefer: You're just like write, writing character.
Em Schulz: Well, he was like, "I saw that y'all were doing like yard work and I, uh, wanted to let you know I'm a local in the area. And, umm, since I've been around a while, I thought I should let you know that before you dig up any of that ground. Uh, there are graves back there."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my. So is he just driving around waiting for somebody to start excavating so he could give them the big news?
Em Schulz: I feel like he's been waiting his whole life to use this information.
Christine Schiefer: To impart this wisdom. Yes. A 100%.
Em Schulz: So he showed them, uh... He said, "Oh, there's at least two graves I know of. And they're over here. Come follow me in your own backyard."
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, Lester. Geez.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And so, uh, he points to this one spot and he says, "I, I know that there's two graves there." And the Haneys were like, "Is this guy just like... Did he just stumble upon our, our property, and he's just like, fucking with us?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like, is like, who would make this up? Like, that'd be really cruel.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So they tell their construction company like, "Hey, bring a, bring a, whatever it's called, excavator? What, whatever it's called."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Umm, and start digging up this area. We wanna see, like if this guy's telling the truth." Very quickly, they found a pine coffin.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: Sticking out and sticking out of that coffin was a human hand.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: With two wedding rings on its finger.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So the sheriff comes out and collects samples. I even saw, uh, one source said that they tried to like, get fragments of the bone. And it was so old or so fragile that like, when they would touch it, it just turned to dust.
Christine Schiefer: Disintegrate?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So they, they took some samples and they then just gave the Haneys the two rings that they found in this coffin.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good. You can have this. Thank you so much.
Em Schulz: You can have this thing that's now above ground now that we've desecrated a grave. Good luck.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, put it in your old trinket box. Don't worry about it.
Em Schulz: Wear it. Umm, so...
Christine Schiefer: When you go swimming in the pool that we dug up. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So the Haneys wanted to, I mean, they were obviously really... They, they were very clearly... They've done interviews and stated that like, they felt so uncomfortable about this.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: They were like, we should not have these fucking rings. We shouldn't have touched these bodies. Like we should have not bothered this area at all.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they wanted to honor the couple who was buried there. So they set out to learn who these people were so they could, uh, put a marker on the graves.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they eventually got in touch with this guy named Jasper Norton. And he was also a local for a long time. And so Jasper...
Christine Schiefer: Jasper and Lester. You don't say. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I bet he was like, "Lester Wrestler, have you met him? Oh, okay."
Christine Schiefer: He's my arch, arch nemesis.
Em Schulz: Arch nemesis, ever since third grade. So...
[chuckle.
Em Schulz: So Jasper told them... I don't know how they got in touch with Jasper, but I I I...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure he also just showed up, to be honest. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Through the grapevine...
Christine Schiefer: Uh huh.
Em Schulz: I guess Jasper found them.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Who rescued who? And so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ah.
Em Schulz: And so Jasper says, "Oh yeah, those two graves, you found them. Well, umm, you know, those are not the only two graves." Uh, fun fact, the entire subdivision is sitting on top of what used to be called Black Hope Cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Why did Lester bury the lead and say that there's a grave here. Bye. And then Jeff was like, "Oh, sorry. Did he not tell you there's a hundred graves?"
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what? Why would he, Lester leave them hanging like that?
Em Schulz: I think Lester was hoping that he would get like a recurring feature in their lives.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Like, "Oh, call me for more, you know, tidbits."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's like, "I'll come back every three days and tell you a new secret."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, but so Jasper's like, "No, no. The entire place. Like if you thought you shouldn't build the pool there, you wanted to build it in the front yard. No bodies there too."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So it turned out that this land was once a, yikes, cotton plantation that later became land designated for sharecropping.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And so a lot of black sharecroppers lived on this property, and they didn't live far from this area.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So when they would die, it all just became a cemetery. Umm, and then Kelsa Preeze. Then, uh, nobody documented it at all. And there was a bunch of unmarked graves of black people. And, uh, then a new subdivision gets built right on top of them.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds about...
Em Schulz: Go figure.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds about right.
Em Schulz: Sounds like America to me.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So, uh, apparently according to Jasper, there were up to 60 graves of formerly enslaved people on this property.
Christine Schiefer: Holy Shit.
Em Schulz: With the last burial being in 1939, which at the time of the story was only 44 years ago.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wow.
Em Schulz: Which means, if... And, and if you wanted to equate it to like the '80s now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh. Oh, that is weird. That... Yes, that puts it in perspective.
Em Schulz: Um, so Jasper knew about the bodies here because he had personally dug some of the graves.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. He's like, "Oh, that's my handy work." [chuckle] Really?
Em Schulz: He was like, he was like, "I could actually walk you over here and here and here and here and here and here. And I dug 'em all up."
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't you say this as a very well done grave that I dug?
Em Schulz: Yeah. You didn't even know. Except for all of the massive sinkholes that I left. Whoops.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oopsie.
Em Schulz: Which like, talk about like getting a lead source to come and tell you everything that's going on. Because he's a...
Christine Schiefer: Just a primary source. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's like, "I literally am the ones who put the bodies in the ground."
Christine Schiefer: Uh huh.
Em Schulz: "I know what's going on here."
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: So people in turd here, I guess this is all according to Jasper, people in turd here often couldn't afford headstones. So families would mark the graves with whatever they could. So sometimes they would put a small fence somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: They would make their own headstones.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or they would just put a stone there and call it a headstone. And other people put markers on trees.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Like Ben and Jean.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: And now when you think about it, an arrow upside down is pointing to the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And the two lines look like a coffin.
Christine Schiefer: I... Okay. When you first said the two lines, I was like, "Oh, like a coffin." Then I was like, "That doesn't make any sense, Christine," and then I just moved on. Umm...
Em Schulz: But yeah. So it's to say under this tree is a coffin.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Uh, he was able to... This is Jasper we're talking about. Not only was he able to describe the types of, uh, markings, he remembers being here at some point, but he also was able to list at least 19 of the 60 people who were buried on this property. Umm, and the Haneys discovered that the two bodies they found with the rings on their finger, they were Betty and Charlie Thomas.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And so the Haneys started looking for descendants of them, but couldn't find anyone alive. And so they kind of took it upon themselves to look after their graves.
Christine Schiefer: That's hard too 'cause it's pre-internet, obviously, and pre 23andMe...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Very obviously, but also... Or Ancestry, you know, that kind of thing, those tools. But like, also even with a name like Thomas, that's such a, umm, common name and Betty or... Betsy or Betty?
Em Schulz: Betty.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, Betty. I, yeah, I imagine that would be... In the '80s, especially, a very difficult kind of project.
Em Schulz: And the early '80s too. It was '82.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That feels like a very difficult project to embark on.
Em Schulz: Which actually, you know, what's so interesting is from now to then is the exact same time period between then and when the last body was buried on that property.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, weird. Oh, yeah. So, so it would be like us trying to find ancestors of, or descendants of people who died in the '80s.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's weird.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's very weird.
Em Schulz: Um, so...
Christine Schiefer: And I bet in the eighties they were like, "We have so many tools now to find ancestors."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And we're like now...
Em Schulz: Like, this should be a, a cinch.
Christine Schiefer: A breeze. There's things called, I don't know, genealogy libraries. Now we're like, oh...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't have to leave my couch. Don't worry.
Em Schulz: There's things called one historian, three states over.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, they... The Haneys were like, "It's now on us that we are going to be, you know, as a, as an apology to desecrating their graves, we're going to take care of them and make sure that they have a proper marker and... "
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Make sure that we don't have to disturb them again. Meanwhile, keep in mind the, the same... At the same time, Ben and Jean are having their whole beyond crisis, uh, only a few houses over. Now the Haneys are realizing there's bodies. And at the time, because they had a sheriff come out, they had a coroner come out. So neighbors start talking...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And they're like, "What the hell's going on?"
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Everyone realizes there's fucking bodies all over their property.
Christine Schiefer: It's about time.
Em Schulz: There's like... They're like, "What are you talking... " And all these people are brand new, remember? They all moved into the subdivision within the last year or two.
Christine Schiefer: And you think, like, we talk about this, but you think you buy, buy a new build or you build your own house. Like it's gotta it's gotta be pretty ghost free.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You would think, yeah.
Em Schulz: You would hope.
Christine Schiefer: You would hope.
Em Schulz: You would hope. Uh, but all of them are like, "What the fuck do you mean there's bodies everywhere?"
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Like, why didn't anyone warn us about this...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: That this used to be a cemetery. So I don't know, it, chicken or the egg. Did people have these experiences before or after realizing there were dead bodies everywhere? But neighbors start reporting also having things go on in their home.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Umm, so again, I don't know if that was before or after the rumors. But feeling guilty for desecrating the graves, the Haneys specifically, they reburied the two people...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: The Betty and Charlie Thomas. Sam even built a new coffin for them and lined it with satin.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice.
Em Schulz: And then they marked the spot with a flower... Uh, or flower garden and openly apologized to Betty and Charlie saying, "We're so sorry, we did not mean to do this."
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Umm, and unfortunately none of that seemed to be enough, because very quickly after that, did activity pick up in their home.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shoot. I was about to say, well, they're probably the only ones who didn't get haunted, but I guess not.
Em Schulz: You would think, right? I was like... If I were them, I would've been like "Woo, we are safe tonight."
Christine Schiefer: That feels like the exact proper steps to take. Yep.
Em Schulz: And you know, it's like, it's interesting because Jean already felt something was off, but didn't really have to deal with activity until she started digging the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And now even as nice as they're being and as kind as they're being, shit didn't happen until they dug the ground.
Christine Schiefer: They've... They've disturbed the ground. Yes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Maybe it doesn't matter what you do.
Em Schulz: So, for... For example, in the Haney residence, after they thought that everything was now put to rest, and thank God they just stepped totally out of the harm's way of dealing with ghosts because they'd never seen a ghost up until now.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Ha. We're probably fine. Eh, one night Judith's unplugged alarm clock starts sparking like it's about to catch on fire.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Then Judith hears the sliding glass door open, which is locked.
Christine Schiefer: Uh oh.
Em Schulz: They hear it open by itself, and then they hear a man say, "Whatcha doin?"
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Then, within the next 24 hours, she's looking for her favorite red shoes in her closet. They have disappeared and she's looking everywhere for them and found them on Betty's grave.
Christine Schiefer: Ahh.
Em Schulz: And this is when she realized with the research she had done that it was Betty's birthday.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." And someone forgot to get her a gift and thought they'd be sneaky and climb into her closet.
Em Schulz: Well, They literally decided the way that they were going to frame it in their head is, "Oh, Charlie's gifting Betty a birthday present."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That seems like what's happening.
Em Schulz: And I, I think I would've done the same thing to like, make, make it lighthearted. Be like, ha ha ha. But don't do that again. Ha ha ha.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like happy birthday, but like...
Em Schulz: You can have my shoes, but please don't come back in my house.
Christine Schiefer: Next 365 days, let's keep it down.
Em Schulz: Um, so the Haneys quickly realized that they were not gonna be able to sell this house ever, because it's on top of a cemetery of formerly enslaved people. Which, wow. That's, uh, I don't...
Christine Schiefer: And it sounds like they have a little more, umm, integrity...
Em Schulz: Compassion?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Than like some people who would be like, "Well, we just won't tell." You know?
Em Schulz: Especially in the '80s, like in in today's world, this would be like... I don't know if it would be...
Christine Schiefer: You... People would find out. It would be...
Em Schulz: Huge news. But people would find out and it would be a... People would have certain opinions today that...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Agreed.
Em Schulz: I don't know if everyone in the '80s had.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm sure there are more regulations now too.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Well, so they realized like, man, the place is haunted now. We are just sitting on top of bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Even if we wanted to leave, I don't know if we ever can because how are we going to sell this? So they get lawyers involved and they basically say, "We accept the fact that like we're never gonna be able to sell this property. We're stuck here forever. Umm, but we are seeking financial compensation from the company that sold us this house."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because they should have told us.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, they also... Fun fact, which I love this. On top of that, they said, "And while you're at it, we're gonna fight for legal protections for all the bodies that are interred here."
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Thank you. They don't wanna just like...
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Dump 'em and leave and let somebody else deal with it, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Good for them.
Em Schulz: Well, so this is when other neighbors started chiming in being like, "Yeah, well, remember we said we were also experiencing things? Here's some of the shit we've been dealing with."
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: They've been getting grabbed by hands that they can't see. Doors have been opening and closing. Their pets have also mysteriously been dying.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: They would hear weird sounds. They would see strange lights, they'd see full body apparitions, their TVs and water faucets would turn on and off. Items around their house are moving by themselves. And I mean, it, they, I think it was just to like push that they were backing the Haneys being like, "We all feel stuck in this."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: At the same time, Ben and Jean from the first house, they are also pursuing legal action, but their lawyer says, "Eh, actually your neighbors, the Haneys did it first. Let's see how this pans out. And then we'll do a lawsuit." [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Okay. Let's uh, let them start the precedent.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So, umm, bringing it back to Ben and Jean, I... We're kind of, we're not totally done with the Haney story, but we're gonna go back to Ben and Jean for a second.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Umm, so while all this is going on with the Haneys, over at Ben and Jean's house... Remember Jean's brother has now passed away from cancer.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Exactly a year after that, her dad has now died from cancer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Her mom is still dealing with cancer. And now Ben's mom has also been diagnosed with cancer.
Christine Schiefer: Oy vey. Okay.
Em Schulz: And Carly, their granddaughter, has gotten a second cat who also went missing, came back wasting away and died.
Christine Schiefer: This is so tragic. All of this.
Em Schulz: Their daughter who had cancer, actually recovers from cancer, but then ends up getting a rare infection that's attacking her heart.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. So it's like she finally beat it and then whatever was attaching to her was like, "Nope."
Em Schulz: It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Take it away.
Em Schulz: Welp, well if you beat that one, I'll just throw another one at you.
Christine Schiefer: We'll try again. Oh.
Em Schulz: After this, all this, uh, Jean said that she felt contaminated by the energy. She thought she would never be normal again, which you're already not gonna be normal because once you lose, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So many family members, like your world's already off its axis.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right.
Em Schulz: So like she... You're definitely never gonna be normal again. But this certainly doesn't help.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And at this point, she decided that the evil that she was feeling was maybe not the vengeful spirits, but just general residual energy caused by what had gone on there. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Interesting.
Em Schulz: I think she was trying to learn to forgive the spirits. And it's like, it's not them, it's just...
Christine Schiefer: Right, to...
Em Schulz: The history of this place.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right. Like there's already just negativity built into the history. It doesn't need to come from the individuals.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, well I guess that's what she's hoping. At least. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know. But she not only felt terrified for her own family, she was also... And her neighbors, but she was also... She felt responsible... I think probably from seeing what the Haneys were up to, I think she also felt obligated to speak up for the bodies buried in the area...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: That like why would you build a fucking development on top of us? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's pretty fucked up, honestly.
Em Schulz: Um, and so Ben and Jean, they still couldn't afford to leave their home in Texas. They had actually, umm, put what they could down on a property in Montana and they were just like...
Christine Schiefer: Well and, and...
Em Schulz: We'll make it work.
Christine Schiefer: The double whammy too, of like all these illnesses. It's like they're probably drowning in medical bills too.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like they don't even have the opportunity to save up for a new house. Like they're stuck.
Em Schulz: They were even saying, uh, that they, like, one of their stressors was just like, they were the only "healthy people" in the family. Like they were may, maybe not expected, but they felt obligated again to be a support, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, totally.
Em Schulz: And their... They never planned on having to raise another child. Now they're raising their granddaughter.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, I don't... I mean, there was, there was, there was no getting out of it.
Christine Schiefer: It's nonstop.
Em Schulz: So they also eventually pursue a settlement with the development's insurers, but the insurers said that, "Well, we are not responsible for compensating you and maybe if there was proof of this cemetery, we would insure you or we would pay you back. But, uh, because this property was never registered with the county, the cemetery doesn't exist."
Christine Schiefer: Classic.
Em Schulz: "So it's not our fault that we didn't know about it."
Christine Schiefer: That makes sense.
Em Schulz: Um, and so keep in mind they had the older locals giving full testimonies...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: About how they like openly, for no reason except out of like general, general kindness, genuine kindness, they like approach these people and said everything that they said.
Christine Schiefer: Warned them. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Warned them. So the, the older locals are saying what they've, what they knew about and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: What they experienced. A woman comes forward who is testi... Uh, is testifying as the daughter of someone who once owned the land and can confirm there was a cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. Okay.
Em Schulz: And the Haneys had Betty and Charlie's literal bodies, which were like written up by the sheriff and the coroner that their graves exist.
Christine Schiefer: They found the graves. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Still wasn't enough.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: I... They were just dodging, dodging, dodging.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. They had great lawyers.
Em Schulz: So when Ben suggested digging up more bodies to prove its existence, which like is kind of wild, but he was like, "what do you need me to do like go dig some of these fucking bodies out of the grave... "
Christine Schiefer: Find more bones. Yeah.
Em Schulz: "To like prove that there was a cemetery?" It was this like loop hole where it was like, well, it's illegal to desecrate graves so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh come on...
Em Schulz: So if you go looking for graves, then you're just gonna go to jail.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, come on.
Em Schulz: So you better not dig up graves, and therefore, we get to keep saying the cemeteries, the cemetery doesn't exist.
Christine Schiefer: That's so fucked.
Em Schulz: So at that point, Jean loses her shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, good.
Em Schulz: Which I don't totally blame her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um and she was like, "I don't give a shit if it's illegal, I wanna prove to you that there's a cemetery. I'm going to go to this big ass oak tree that says, there's a coffin underneath, and I am going to dig up the body here," and so she started digging and her... One of her daughters who was there, the one with the uh cancer and heart condition...
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: She was helping her dig and said like, "Mom, you go lie down, like I'll take a shift digging and then we'll swap." So she starts digging, 30 minutes into her digging, she comes in and feels really sick, and very soon she is on the floor begging her mom to take care of her children.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And Jean remembers watching Tina's eyes glaze over and two days later, she was dead from a heart attack.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Um Jean says, "I realized that I had desecrated another grave and now I'm paying for it. I told Ben we have to get out of here. It doesn't matter anymore," which every single person that's had something like this, it's because they literally went out and started digging the grave so...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. It's a pattern.
Em Schulz: So Ben and Jean they were like, "I don't even care if we can't afford this anymore, I have to get out of here."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They both just flee to Montana.
Christine Schiefer: Like desperate.
Em Schulz: Um and then they ended up moving back to Texas, but in a different area. And they said that for the rest of the time, they never had any more issues.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine calling the doctor from Montana and being like, "I need you to forward my medical records to this new doctor."
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, "Oh, why'd you leave? I thought you were my patient still."
Em Schulz: I'd be like turn on the TV, you'll see.
Christine Schiefer: Your dumbass advice caused all this.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I... There was more going on than my allergies.
Christine Schiefer: Uh yeah.
Em Schulz: Um so they ended up moving away, they never had any more paranormal issues, which is great, um and then the Haneys, on the other hand, they ended up winning their lawsuit and developers paid them somewhere near like $130,000 in damages, but then it was overturned and the Haneys were ordered to pay the developers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh please. Oh please.
Em Schulz: So they literally declared bankruptcy and also moved.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck off, so it's like, yeah, really, it's just everyone's screwed by this place.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so uh they both just fucking left, uh eventually a bunch of other neighbors also left because they couldn't tolerate it.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And they saw from Ben and Jean and Sam and Judith that why even try a lawsuit, they're not gonna...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: It's not gonna do anything. So a bunch of people just fucking left the development. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: In 1991, Ben and Jean wrote a book called "The Black Hope Horror," and a year later, the book was adapted into a TV movie called 'Grave Secrets, The Legacy of Hilltop Drive,' um and then 'Unsolved Mysteries' did an episode...
Christine Schiefer: Ay.
Em Schulz: Uh in season 12 of them. And 'The Black Hope Haunting' is often mistaken, fun fact, for the inspiration of the movie 'Poltergeist' because they both have to do with graves on the property.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And there's a pool involved in both stories. Um but that's not true. Apparently, 'Poltergeist' is based off of a New York story, um and this is Texas. So most residents today say that they don't have any trouble in the neighborhood with any activity, that there is nothing there, in fact, in 2007, an article from the Houston Chronicle proclaimed publicly that the neighborhood was officially not haunted...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's not a way to jinx it. Jesus.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh that being said, there was an article uh where they interviewed this long-time resident of the development named Walter Winches.
Christine Schiefer: So now we've got Lester, Jasper, and Walter. Okay.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just making sure I got them all.
Em Schulz: And even though apparently the neighborhood does not have any more ghosts, he said that he's had some odd encounters uh one of them, he claims that a doppelganger walks around his house as his wife...
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh no, I don't like doppelgangers. Oh no.
Em Schulz: That he will literally watch his wife walk into the kitchen, and then when he goes in to talk to her, the kitchen is empty and he'll find her sleeping in bed.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." That is one of my biggest creeper. Creeper factors, yikes, yikes, yikes.
Em Schulz: He also said that he has one of the same coffin-shaped sink holes in his yard that never stays filled. Um and apparently nowadays, if you look out into the woods that this development is near, there's always ghost hunters out there, so I'm sure they're helping stir shit up.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Um and my favorite quote from Walter when he was asked to share more paranormal encounters, he said, "I'll come in and set my keys and wallet down on the table and go take a shower, and when I come back, the keys are hanging on the wall, and money is always missing from my wallet. Then again, I've got a wife."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, okay Walter.
Em Schulz: So guess your wife is just taking your loose change, um and then there's another resident... I think she's still a current resident, or she's at least a recent resident, named Mary Anderson and she uh, she and an organization called Respect Houston had been working together to identify as many people buried here as possible, and then reaching out to their relatives for them to decide what to do with the bodies.
Christine Schiefer: That's great.
Em Schulz: And uh today, it is still very hard to find any information about Black Hope Cemetery because since there was no official record of it, and since um anyone that would have known anything about it has now passed away, the only thing that was surviving for a long time was oral tradition.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And that's now gone away, so any older locals who would have remembered are gone now, and it's even harder than ever before to know anything other than really the story, so but that's the Black Hope Cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Well, see listen you're doing a you're doing good work here, keeping the story alive.
Em Schulz: The Lord's work, some might say.
Christine Schiefer: I... Some might.
Em Schulz: Me?
Christine Schiefer: Not me, not me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But uh yeah, I mean I'm glad that you're at least sharing it and you know it's a one more source that the story can live on, so that's kind of cool.
Em Schulz: Yeah, anyway, I really liked uh you know... I was like, damn, that's a good one. I'm very...
Christine Schiefer: That is a fucking good one, like I, I know Jim said he had heard of it, I certainly haven't, so um.
Em Schulz: I'm very excited. I'm going to go watch the movie, I think 'cause it's like... It's a...
Christine Schiefer: I can say it sounds like a movie.
Em Schulz: A cheapo '90s... Like on Rotten Tomatoes, it's called like a like a rotten score.
Christine Schiefer: All the best movies do... Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Anyway. And then apparently, I looked up on IMDB, I was like, is there any like fun movie trivia from it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: There wasn't any trivia, but in like the goofs section, like the blooper section...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Apparently, um they have a a scene where it's clearly like um a you know hyperbole or exaggerated of the the real thing that happened, but they have a scene where the granddaughter, I guess, wakes up in the middle of the night and there's like water flying everywhere, but you can see in the scene like it keeps cutting away from her, but she's wearing like pool goggles, so the water doesn't get in her eyes.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Shut up. You can see the goggles.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's very fun.
Em Schulz: Looking forward to that.
Christine Schiefer: That is a very fun little trivia fact. Um wow, wow, that is a good one Em really.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm, I'm... That one's gonna stick with me, I think. Well, Em I have an interesting one here for you today, um this is the story of Julie Williams and Lollie Winans, and um if you're wondering why I know how to pronounce Winans, it's because this couple was actually mentioned in a little book called "A Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop," um and I know...
Em Schulz: Hmm. Who wrote that? Who wrote that? I think...
Christine Schiefer: Somebody really smart.
Em Schulz: Me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's right. And...
Em Schulz: But no one else.
Christine Schiefer: No one else. And I, the reason I know is because I had to be called back into the recording studio to pronounce this name properly.
Em Schulz: Ah-ha.
Christine Schiefer: Because I and every other YouTuber/podcaster has said, Winans, and I guess the team at Andrews McNeal did a little digging and said, "No, it's Winans." So um with that said, yes, this is referenced briefly in the book; however, this story is not really covered, it's just kind of a a um...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: A side mention of potential victims that uh that some people have theorized were part of like a bigger serial murder case.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um but this part kinda sucks for me and for everyone, and I'm sorry, is that it was solved a couple of months ago, uh.
Em Schulz: No!
Christine Schiefer: I know. And...
Em Schulz: How dare someone actually get retribution and answers...
Christine Schiefer: No, it's just great, it's just the problem is now my reporting is probably inaccurate, so I apologize that it's on the record now that I...
Em Schulz: We can pretend there's no closure, and then at the end, you can do like a surprise situation.
Christine Schiefer: No, no and I, I, I am just so thrilled that it was closed, but I just you know... I wanted to make sure we give it its justice you know uh here in uh in this episode, if, if not in the book itself, um but it's not really covered in the book, in the book, I mentioned their names as part of the Colonial Parkway murders um story. And so that's where they come up, but um it turns out totally different thing. So let's get into it. This is the story of Julie and Lollie. They met in the early '90s through a group called Woods Women. And woods wo... Woods Women, aside from being a tongue-twister is a Minnesota-based non-profit that was focused on giving women opportunities to get involved in wilderness adventure.
Em Schulz: Ooh fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so although they came from different backgrounds, um both women loved the outdoors, it was like their thing, uh and Lollie, so I'll give you a little back story on both of them. Lollie grew up in Grosse Pointe, which is a very affluent city in Southeast Michigan, and her family was wealthy. Um but despite that Lollie did not have a happy nor a safe childhood, uh she actually, oh she as a child would research ways to stay away from home as long as possible. And for as long as possible.
Em Schulz: Sad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, because she was uh experiencing ongoing sexual abuse at home.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And so she spent weeks of her summers at overnight camps in the Blue Ridge Mountains. She even convinced her mother to allow her to attend a boarding school in Baltimore, far away where she could be safe for at least a temporary you know bit of time, and as members of prestigious horse and hunting clubs, Lollie's family had kind of a tailored version of the outdoors, in that, it wasn't like roughing it, you know it was more glamping style, like oh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We just ride horses and very shi-shi. But...
Em Schulz: Sounds like my kind of having to be outside.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. I was like, I mean, everything else aside, I can get behind the... Like well not the hunting nor the horses, but you know, eh, eh...
Em Schulz: A lap of luxury, but it's sunny.
Christine Schiefer: A lap of luxury could be could be a little a little better for me than the authentic wilderness, but I can't blame Lollie because she felt like her whole life was you know not authentic, especially the the connection to the outdoors and so she wanted like a real connection with the wilderness. And so in 1989, she began attending Sterling College in Vermont and pursued an Associates in Environmental Studies, and there she spent a lot of her time participating in a party scene that if she were anyone else probably would have gotten her expelled. But the Dean of Students knew very well that Lollie had had extreme difficulties back at home with her family and was from a very unsafe and unhappy place, and she was so loved by the rest of her classmates that the dean kind of gave her a break and said "you can stay... "
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: "Even though you're you know partying and not doing your, you know... "
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: "Stepping up to the plate," but she got kind of a pass for that, so I thought that was kind of great. Um she was just that kind of person. She was kind, outgoing, uh people liked her, and she would do odd jobs to support herself because even though her family was very wealthy, uh they didn't support her whatsoever financially. So in December, she went on a wilderness trip with her school and the temperatures plummeted below zero, and they ended up pitching their tents in the snow, and even though most people, including you and I would probably...
Em Schulz: Go home.
Christine Schiefer: Go home and do anything else and never leave our house again, uh Lollie was like, fuck yeah, this is the kind of outdoorsiness that I like...
Em Schulz: Okay. And there's something for everyone...
Christine Schiefer: And she... Loved it. Exactly.
Em Schulz: And there's someone for everything.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right. And the Dean of Students later said that the trip gave her a new like motivation, a new drive in life, and so she decided to go on to study outdoor recreation and leadership at Unity College, and her focus is what we now call adventure therapy. And adventure therapy is what she would do is she wanted to connect abuse and rape survivors to the outdoors and and find healing you know in the wilderness in in the outdoors, which I thought was really, really great, especially considering, considering her own background with sexual trauma.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So now we're skipping over to Julie, so that was Lollie's backstory. Now, Julie Williams, she grew up in Saint Cloud, Minnesota, and her mother was a nurse. Her father was a funeral director, and she and her three siblings lived pretty comfortably in a middle class neighborhood, they spent a lot of time playing outdoors with other kids, you know the usual fishing, hiking, swimming with the cousins. They had a lake house they would go to, um and Julie herself was very athletic, she was a tennis champion, and um she was big into sports at school; however, she was very much an introvert and she was very quiet. And so she spent more time observing than speaking and was very empathetic and empathic and and cared about others, and in high school, she actually became...
Christine Schiefer: In high school, get this, she became fluent in Spanish and volunteered as a translator and advocate for Latino women living in shelters, like in high school.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: She took that upon herself.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Um. And so that's just the kind of people that they were. So from a young age, uh Julie was very passionate about geology, and she majored in geology at Carlton College, she spent her summers interning it geo-archaeology digs in Rome, and which is just so cool. I just... I love shit like that. I wanted to be um a um an archeologist for so long umm and then...
Em Schulz: I had a phase where I wanted to do that.
Christine Schiefer: I definitely did. And then they were like, you're gonna have to write a lot of papers. And I was like, I'd rather not.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also like the digging. Ugh. I don't know about that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, after your story just now, I'm like, I don't think I wanna do that anymore. I think the digging, I'm, I've moved on, I don't need to have any crow attacks on my radar.
Em Schulz: Yeah. All right.
Christine Schiefer: So she would do these digs in Rome and she worked... Umm back home, she worked in the outdoor sector as a canoe guide and a wildlife technician. So if you can imagine these two crossing paths, love connection, right like they have everything, they have similar backgrounds, they have similar interests, they love the outdoors, and they're marginalized people, they're both queer, they're both women, and they fell in love. So the two of them together were greatly admired by their peers, and they forged ahead in a field that typically is pretty fraught for women and other marginalized people, um even today, um from what I've learned, um there's quite a bit of sexuality-based and gender-based harassment still in the outdoor industry, as I imagine they're in a lot of industries, um everywhere from small businesses to the national parks. So as queer women in the '90s, you know this was kind of, of an uphill battle, so to speak, but Julie and Lollie were up to the task and were were very dedicated to what they did and very in love. So in late May of 1996, Julie was preparing to move out of the apartment she shared with her friend Derek and start a new job at Lake Champlain in Vermont.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she and Lollie decided, okay, well, we're we're making moves, we're moving out of our apartments, we're we're transitioning career path... Or you know, careers and schooling, why don't we like ring in the summer with a big bang, we're gonna go on a trip to the Shenandoah National Park in Virginia.
Em Schulz: Love it.
Christine Schiefer: So the Shenandoah National Park, uh 200,000 acres in the Blue Ridge Mountains hosts 101 miles of the Appalachian Trail. Um. A lot of that country to explore, just a beautiful area. The couple set out at the end of May, along with Julie's beloved golden retriever mix, whose name was Taj, and...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Julie promised Derek, her roommate, that she would be home in time to pack up her room and move out by May 31st because they you know apartment living in college, you need your deposit back. Um. She says, "I'll be back to to move my shit out, don't worry about it." So May 21st, it's a Wednesday, Julie and Lollie stop at a park office to renew their back country permits, which is a requirement for all hikers and campers traveling in the park's wilderness areas. They register their vehicle and their equipment, and they plan to leave the park and head home on Monday, May 27th, which would be plenty of time to get their stuff out by the 31st. But the 27th came and went, and Derek is getting teed off because...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: He's thinking shit, like she's just gonna leave me hanging here, like I can't... I don't wanna clean out her whole half of the apartment, you know and where am I gonna put it? You know. And so he's a little bit PO'd, and uh he was like, "there is no way we're gonna have time and we're not gonna get our security post back, this sucks." So on May 30th, the day before they need to move out, he calls Julie's parents back in Minnesota, their names were Tom and Patsy, and he's like, "Where the hell is Julie? Like she needs to move her stuff out," and her parents say, "We have not heard from her," and... That's bad news.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Julie was the most reliable person any of her friends knew, if she said she was gonna be back by the 31st, she was gonna be back by the 31st. So when she wasn't um and a-apparently seemed to blow off Derek and her responsibilities, uh her parents and her friends knew something was very wrong.
Christine Schiefer: So Tom tried to contact a sheriff near the park, but he was redirected to the park office, which was closed for the night, and at the time, apparently national parks were going through historical budget cuts and they were woefully under-staffed, so they didn't even have enough rangers in the parks to effectively patrol umm you know late night reports or if somebody sent in an emergency report, there was probably no one on hand to to deal with it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So instead, Friday morning, May 31st, Julie's parents finally got in contact with a ranger at Shenandoah Park, and he issued what they call an ATL, which is also known as an attempt to locate.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So rangers were notified to look out for the couple, and if the women weren't located by nightfall, then authorities would launch um a bigger search and like typically, I mean I'm gonna bring this up later too, but typically in these cases, it's like either you know they're just lost or they've just kind of shirked their responsibilities like, oh, don't worry, we'll find them...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Was their was their mindset, the park rangers, they weren't super worried. Umm so they went out to look for them, and if they couldn't find them by nightfall, they said, okay, if we can't find them by nightfall, we'll instigate a larger search. So at 10:00 AM, their car was located in the spot where they last left it parked, which was indicated by that permit they had gotten, that back country permit. And so on Saturday, June 1st, park authorities escalated the search because they have the car, but they don't know where the couple is, and this involved the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, so that they would have more boots on the ground umm searching for them. That day park goers encountered a friendly golden retriever mix wandering the park without a collar.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Umm.
Christine Schiefer: It appeared to be lingering near a junction at Bridal Trail, um which was a trail so unused that most maps didn't even include it. And the dog would follow several hikers for a while before turning back down Bridal Trail, and eventually one hiker flag down a ranger and said, "Hey, there's this dog wandering around like, you might wanna look into this." So the ranger called the dog over and it was a very happy and friendly puppy...
Em Schulz: Puppy.
Christine Schiefer: However, when he tried to get the dog to jump into his truck to take back to the station, he wouldn't go.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: And then the ranger are remembered that he had been in this meeting about Julie Lollie, Julie and Lollie and their dog. And so he remembered that the dog's name was Taj. And he said, "Hop in Taj," and the dog just jumped right into the truck.
Em Schulz: Aww. Okay, so, I mean I... You know, sorry, I got flustered that the dog was being cute, but also at the same time, yikes, that this is definitely their dog.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it's definitely their dog. Yes, exactly, it's like... It's like a good... It's like a clue in the right direction, but it's also kind of a red flag. So he reported back and said he believed he had located Julie's dog, and so rangers took the dog to a line of parked cars. This makes me so sad. And walked by them with the dog...
Em Schulz: To see where... Which one he ran to?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And when they passed Julie and Lollie's 4Runner, he jumped up with his paws on the door looking through the passenger window...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: To see if his owners were in there.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: This is sad. So now, the rangers, 'cause of course, they know that this is their their car as well, so they're like, yep, this is definitely their dog, and he responds to Taj and he knows this is their car, so they've sure found him. That same day, a young boy slipped and fell at a water park in the park and was badly injured, and so several of the rangers searching for Julie and Lollie responded to that emergency, and meanwhile, one ranger was walking along Bridal Trail, calling the women's names and didn't see anything, and it was a very like thick, thick undergrowth, um couldn't couldn't see much. Hours later, two more rangers hiked the trail again, and this time finally, one of them spotted a tent through the dense foliage...
Em Schulz: Oh god.
Christine Schiefer: And they thought, well, that's weird. It's surprising to find campers on the trail, this is such a secluded area. One of the rangers who used to live in a cabin along the path said like, "People rarely come out here, this is not even on the map, this is a very like isolated part of the woods."
Em Schulz: So like, would it have to be locals or were they like... Was there an intention for why they were parked right there? Like...
Christine Schiefer: I think it was just more for people like with that back country permit. I mean, I could be wrong, but um... I think it was more for people who knew the ins and outs of a place like this, maybe, or were more experienced, like more advanced campers.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Like it's not necessarily something you would just stumble upon if you were like glamping, as we mentioned earlier.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: Um... And so, you know, they were like, "Let's take a quick look at who's out here." Uh... It's not like they weren't allowed to be tented out there, it's just like an odd choice. Like it's not everybody... It's not a popular, you know, spot for camping out there.
Em Schulz: Worth mentioning, but it is interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. So they kind of take a look. They announce themselves as they approach the camp site, they don't hear anything, and as soon as they're close enough to see the whole site, immediately they realized something is very, very wrong. The camp site is in total disarray. There's pasta and dog food spilled all over the ground. There was a dog leash tied to a large tree branch with the collar still attached that both had been...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Cut as if to like hastily release a dog who was probably freaking out. You know?
Em Schulz: So, Taj?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, Taj.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: There was also a large slash in the tent's rain fly.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like somebody had cut it open from the outside.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, there was also a roll of toilet paper on the ground that had been soaked through with blood.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: I know. So one of the rangers commented right away that he could smell de-comp, and the other looked inside the tent and found a woman lying face down in her sleeping bag. They soon found a second woman also in her sleeping bag, 60 feet from the tent by a stream.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Like someone had tried to drag her away in the sleeping bag?
Christine Schiefer: I'm not entirely sure because there will be more to this... Uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: More details.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So most missing person's cases, like I said earlier, usually end with the subjects located safe and sound, maybe they change their path and didn't tell anybody, or they change their plans, I mean, and went to a new trail, camp site. Maybe they left early, maybe they got lost, you know. That's usually how these things go. Um... Sometimes they're found injured, but typically there's a happy ending when someone's just kind of missing in the woods like this. However, this was obviously not that case. This was worst case scenario. Julie and Lolly had been found. They're both dead, and the rangers, you know, did the right thing. They backed out of the camp site, called in the FBI, and they were able to keep the scene pretty preserved. The park quickly fell under federal jurisdiction. The initial reports had conflicting assumptions, um one report even labeled it a murder suicide, which was...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like very clearly not the case. Um... One ranger thought maybe the women were victims of a bear attack, especially with the food everywhere, you know.
Em Schulz: And the slashing?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It could have been like a bear scratch, you think?
Christine Schiefer: Perhaps like rip... Ripping it open? I'm not sure. Um... But it was...
Em Schulz: Right, but then like, wouldn't it have eaten the dog? You know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and it... Well, also like, the women were then very clearly...
Em Schulz: A lock.
Christine Schiefer: Gagged. Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: They had gags in their mouths and it's like, okay, well, obviously this was not a bear, but I think people just kind of were throwing out theories right... Right off the bat. And so there were a lot of mixed messages in the early paperwork. Um... But both women had been gagged and they had both been raped as well. And they had both died of blood loss after the assailant had cut their throats.
Em Schulz: And where they alive when they were being raped?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. Uh... So very brutal, very horrific. Also, just like one of those just extra kick in the groin, like extra kick while you're down that like... These two women had already suffered so much and overcome so much.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And with Lolly's upbringing of like sexual assault that she then tried to turn into like a way to help the world. And just that that happened.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: On... I mean, it's... It just feels extra heavy. Um. But either way, yes, they uh were both gagged. They had also both been raped and they died of blood loss after the assailant had cut their throats, and I mean, talk about a brutal, brutal crime. Um... The entire outdoor industry was completely shocked, especially minorities who already felt unsafe, uh you know: Women, queer folks, like people who already felt like a little on edge being out in the wilderness and feeling more like a target. Now they've really felt unsafe. Um... It was assumed at first that the women were targeted because of their gender and or sexuality because, you know, they'd been camping on such a secluded path that investigators like could not believe that this had happened by chance. Like, they were like, I don't think someone...
Em Schulz: Mm. Like someone had to have followed them.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yeah. They were like, "I don't think someone had... " 'Cause they had walked that path so many times that day looking for them and hadn't found the tent. So they thought, you know, it's hard to imagine somebody would have just stumbled upon this by accident.
Em Schulz: Right. Totally get it. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Instead, it was more likely, like you said, that they had been stalked to their location before they were killed. And it would also be difficult to sneak up on a camp with a dog present at the camp site, but the stream running near the tent, you know, maybe covered the sounds of their foot falls. Um...
Em Schulz: Especially if they were already sleeping in the tent...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Em Schulz: And so like the the dog might have also been sleeping or like not been so alert or something, it... Or...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And I imagine like sleeping in the woods at night... [chuckle] I'm... I say I imagine 'cause I really don't do it very often. But I imagine sleeping in the woods at night, you probably hear a lot of footsteps, like animals and cracks of branches and twigs and... So I... I'm, I'm sure the dog didn't bark at every sound, you know?
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Being used to being in the outdoors. So probably it wasn't as difficult to sneak up on as, you know, it might have been during the day time.
Em Schulz: It's also interesting that the dog was just let go.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: It feels like... I don't wish that the dog was harmed, but it's interesting...
Christine Schiefer: It's a surprising choice.
Em Schulz: It's interesting to note that this person had enough empathy for an animal, but not women.
Christine Schiefer: I know, isn't that... That kinda goes to show like, wow, how how little...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Some people feel toward...
Em Schulz: Like how... How uh objectified were women for you that like an animal...
Christine Schiefer: The puppy can get off... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Scott free. It...
Em Schulz: Or... Or may like that he just was afraid that the dog would make noise. I mean, I don't know what the reasoning was, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, who knows? Like... Uh... It could very well be not even an empathetic thing. It could have just been like, "Oh, it's easier for me to just let the dog go than kill it," you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Who knows? Or he just maybe didn't care enough. Um, I imagine, probably like you're right, that he let the dog go because if the dog stayed there and barked, people would find them.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Um. So that's probably a big part of it. But yeah, so, so this is all just horrifying. Some women and queer people reported that they were permanently scared of hiking and camping after this. They just didn't even wanna be part of it anymore, which it's sad.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't blame you.
Christine Schiefer: But I don't blame you. Exactly. So Julie's and Lollie's... This is, of course, unfortunate as well. Being in the '90s, their sexual identities overshadowed the crime itself a lot of times, which...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, even nowadays, of course, there's still a lot of stigma, but I can't imagine that nowadays...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: The news reports would be like, "And they were gay." You know? It wouldn't be probably as...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Shocking, maybe. Um. But keep in mind this is like 30 some years ago. And so a lot of the reports presented it as like, "Oh my god, it's shocking these two women were in love or we're dating," and it's just like, okay, get it... Get a fucking grip, you know? But um...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Of course, on the other side of that coin, there was an outcry of support from the queer outdoor community, which was very vocal, um and its allies. And there were demands for legislation to impose harsher punishments for violence that targeted people based on gender and sexuality. So at this point, investigators were under an enormous amount of pressure to solve this case. And in 2002, six years after the murder, the US Attorney General made an announcement. They said, "I have big news." They didn't say that. They said...
Em Schulz: [chuckle] They said, "Hear ye, hear ye."
Christine Schiefer: Here ye. [chuckle] Extre, extre read all about it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They said they had identified and arrested the women's killer.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Was it a big fat homophobe? Is that what it was?
Christine Schiefer: No. [chuckle] Closed the case... It was a homophobic bear. No. Um...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: They said, "We've identified the right guy, and it's Dave... This guy named Daryl David Rice." So Daryl David Rice, he had had a history of violence toward women in Shenandoah National Park, so this fit.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: In July of '97, a Canadian woman named Evan Malvasia was riding her bike in the park when Daryl drove by, spotted her from his truck, pulled over, removed his license plates, then began pursuing Evan.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Was like, "Hold on, let me just take off my identifying features and then I'll mow you over and... And attack you."
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so sinister. So Daryl apparently followed her, shouted sexual obscenities at her, threw a water bottle at her. He then forced her off the road with his truck, where she fell off her bicycle. And she got up and picked up her bike and started using it as a barrier to like shield herself from this attacker. And he was demanding she get into his truck. Thankfully, she was able to keep Daryl at bay with a bicycle, and then he got back into his truck and she was able to peace out and run and hide behind a tree.
Em Schulz: You go girl.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I mean, this is just like... Talk about traumatizing. So she took shelter behind a tree as Daryl accelerated the car toward her, like trying to mow her over.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And finally, Daryl gave up and sped away. And [chuckle] don't worry, he stopped to put his license plates back on, and he changed his shirt.
Em Schulz: Of course, 'cause now he needs... Heaven forbid, he gets pulled over now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. He's like, "Nope, I'm back to normal self. Back to law abiding, Daryl." Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: So Evan, of course, made a report to a ranger and Daryl was arrested before escaping the park. And Daryl did plead guilty to attempted kidnapping. He received an 11-year federal sentence for the crime. And when he was in prison, investigators happened to discover that Daryl had been in Shenandoah National Park when Lollie and Julie were killed, which was just a year before he attempted to abduct Evan.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in the statement on Daryl's indictment, the attorney general referenced violent statements that Daryl had made in prison about queer women. So they felt like, okay, well, he clearly has a... You know. He's clearly homophobic. So, you know, this might be the right guy. Um... The statement claimed that Daryl targeted Lollie and Julie because of his hatred of women and homosexuals.
Em Schulz: Okay, so he was a big fat homophobic bear so far.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay, got it.
Christine Schiefer: So Daryl faced four charges of capital murder, two of which invoked a federal sentencing enhancement specific to hate crimes. Now, any of the four charges could invoke the death penalty. Although the greater danger for marginalized people in the outdoor sector still existed, many people felt like, okay, well, at least they got the guy, right? Like at least they got the guy who... Who did this particular attack. We could feel a little bit relieved, we can feel a little bit safer. The issue was, it wasn't Daryl.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: It was not. It was not Daryl.
Em Schulz: That's wild. It really seemed perfect.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. It did. And in 2004, two years later, the prosecution's case completely fell apart when DNA evidence from the crime scene...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Proved someone else had been the murderer.
Em Schulz: I like how I'm always so like pro-DNA tests, and I was like, "How did they figure it out that it wasn't him?" And it's like... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, I know. Well, it... Because also we started like early, you know, in the '90s, and now it's like, "Okay, it's 2004."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But like that was the transition to when DNA started being widely used.
Em Schulz: You know he... You know he was like actually a serial killer whose like per... Or, uh... Not a serial killer. He's a... Just like a creepy man who's like praying for DNA tests to exonerate him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for once the DNA actually, yeah, worked in... In someone's...
Em Schulz: In his favor.
Christine Schiefer: In a fucking like creeper's favor. Um. And so, yeah, they said the DNA evidence did not link Daryl to the crime scene whatsoever. So all of the evidence against him, as in attacking another woman in the park, and that he was in the park when Lollie and Julie were attacked, that was now just completely circumstantial. And if there was someone else's DNA there, it's pretty easy for the defense to say, "Um. I think there's reasonable doubt here." So the prosecution dropped their charges against Daryl, um, with the condition that he could be charged again if new evidence emerged. So there's no double jeopardy here in that... They still left the door open, just in case they were able to link Daryl the crime. However, many people remained convinced that Darryl was still guilty because it just, like you said, fit so perfectly. And upon his release...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: From prison for the uh attempted abduction of Evan, Darryl retreated to a life of complete solitude, like he went off the grid. He became kind of a hermit to escape the harassment. And journalist authors, true crime reporters, law enforcement, they all remained convinced that he was most likely the perpetrator, even though the DNA had like...
Em Schulz: I wonder of him like going into seclusion, he was just kind of like, "Damn, apparently my opinions get me into trouble," like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. I feel like...
Em Schulz: He was just like, "I gotta back away."
Christine Schiefer: I feel like he... He fucked up in a lot of ways, and then uh was like, "Well, I might as well just... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Remove myself from... "
Em Schulz: Fly away. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "This whole narrative." Yeah. So 20 more years passed. 20.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you would remember, right, that I said this case was solved after I wrote this chapter of the book?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So 20 more years passed, and it seemed as though this would just become, you know, another unsolved case that nobody ever figured out. But in June of this year... June. So we're now in August, so this is two months ago, 2024. The FBI announced this time they did have the identity of the killer.
Em Schulz: Wow. Did they have to like wait for him to do another crime so it was in the system or something?
Christine Schiefer: No, but good guess. So basically what happened is in 2021, a team of investigators with the FBI were tasked with reviewing the case, 'cause you know these things kind of go through phases where it's like they get put away and then a new team comes on and they say, "Hey, like fresh eyes, take a look at this." You know. And so I feel like these cycles kind of happen. So in 2021, a team of investigators were able to extract new DNA samples from evidence collected at the crime scene, which they then submitted to uh CODIS, the FBI's combined DNA index system, and incredibly, there was a match. They had... They did not expect a match because, like you said, a lot of times you have to wait for somebody to be put in the system and then they show up. But, no, there was already a match. This guy named Walter Leo Jackson Senior of Cleveland, Ohio, who had died in March 2018 in prison...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: In Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Yeah, he had died, which is just an extra, ugh, frustration.
Em Schulz: So he just got away with it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yes. For his whole life. So Walter was a convicted rapist and kidnapper, who was also known to have spent time in Shenandoah National Park, and investigators confirmed the match between evidence from the crime scene and Walter with a second DNA sample collected from a buccal swab of, of, of Walters inner cheek, that had been taking with Walter's cheek.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So Daryl Rice was finally exonerated of the killings, but he had become such a recluse that his own defense attorney could not find him. [chuckle] Like could not...
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: Reach him at all.
Em Schulz: So he might... It... For all we know, he might not even know that he's been exonerated?
Christine Schiefer: So 15 days later, he was struck by a car while riding his bike...
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Which also feels very karmic, I'm just gonna say.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that... I don't know what he's done, and I'm not saying he's asked for it...
Christine Schiefer: Well, yes you do.
Em Schulz: I'm just saying...
Christine Schiefer: He literally mowed a woman off the road on her bicycle.
Em Schulz: Oh yes. I... I meant like in in more recent years, for it to... For him to be getting hit by a car in that time period.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it feels very, perfectly, full circle that he tried to attack a woman on her bicycle 30 years earlier...
Em Schulz: And then a car hit him? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And now he's on his bicycle and gets mowed over. You know? It just feels...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Very fitting. So, I don't know, I'm not saying it should have happened. I'm just saying it sounds very... It sounds very karmic, right?
Em Schulz: It... It would have been written into a story, yes.
Christine Schiefer: It feels a little... Yeah, a little like tied in a bow. Um, so he's struck by a vehicle while riding his bike and killed. And so it's possible, like you said, that he never even knew...
Em Schulz: Mmhmm.
Em Schulz: That he had been exonerated. Like maybe he didn't even see it on the news. So the FBI has released information about the vehicle they believe Walter drove at the time. It was a 1984 chestnut brown AMC Eagle 30, as well as photos of Walter. And I hate looking at them because you just... You know how some people just have those fucking evil eyes?
Em Schulz: You can see that he's...
Christine Schiefer: Through the screen. It's like...
Em Schulz: Dark sided.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, and like a lack of a soul almost. And so the FBI has requested public assistance in connecting Walter to any other crimes he may have committed, because he was a serial rapist. So... And a serial murderer. So if anybody has any information, you know, uh check it out uh if you have any... Any link whatsoever. But otherwise, you know, we can at least feel uh a little bit of justice was served in that at least we know who actually killed these two women.
Em Schulz: Still so frustrating. The entire time I kept wait... I was holding off. I did not ask 'cause I was like, "Christine's gonna tell me eventually, so don't even ask." But I was wondering the whole time, I can't wait to hear at the end when he gives an explanation for why he does the things he does, and...
Christine Schiefer: Nope.
Em Schulz: And we still didn't get that? Okay, well...
Christine Schiefer: Nope. I'm sure if you delved more into Leo's, Walter Leo's, uh... Screen...
Em Schulz: Psychiatric paperwork? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah, or like his other crimes, you'd probably get a good sense. You know? But...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. But yeah, so you know, you can hear me say, "Lollie Winans," properly. And you can probably hear the cut of me going, "Winans"...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Saying it differently for the rest of the voice, because I had apparently mispronounced it the first time and I do apologize for that. But it should be correct now. Um, but yeah, so it's just fucking tragic and it's even more tragic when you see photos of them. I'm gonna send you a photo of them, Em 'cause they're just like the cutest little like outdoorsy gay couple from the '90s.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like so '90s.
Em Schulz: I can already... I can already see it.
Christine Schiefer: It's like um... They're just like so sweet and like dorky and like ador... Adorkable.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. It's horrible. And now those are...
Em Schulz: Those are... That is a... That is a cute gay couple.
Christine Schiefer: And here's Taj with them.
Em Schulz: Oh, show me Taj. Aww, puppy dog.
Christine Schiefer: It's hard to see, just the back of his head. But... Yeah, it just um... It just makes it extra like brutal to see them together, you know, 'cause it's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just a...
Em Schulz: Oh, they were cuties.
Christine Schiefer: They finally found their person, you know? And um they had gone through so much already...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they already faced such a hard stigma and... You know, it just uh... It's just a rough one. It's a rough one.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Well... Thanks. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome. Anyway, thanks everybody. I'm so glad you were here to join us today. Um. Last night as I was doing these notes, I was like, "You know what, what if we just switched? What if I just started one and see how that works?" I feel like it's so awkward, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, I guess it is in some ways, but also in other ways, I feel like it gives me an opportunity to ask you anything just to shift gears, so...
Christine Schiefer: That's fair. That's fair. It opens the door. Yeah, go ahead.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. How you feel about politics these days?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, come on.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: What do you wanna do for our after hour... After Dark?
Em Schulz: Umm. I don't know. I... I'm sure we can find a little something on...
Christine Schiefer: What did I do last time? Oh, I read... I read you questions from my shadow work journal. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I loved that. That was actually so fun.
Christine Schiefer: That was really fun. I felt like we learned a lot about ourselves and each other.
Em Schulz: I feel like we did too. Maybe we... Can we do that again? Or can...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, let's do another shadow work.
Em Schulz: I... Or we said we would do a... Another newly wed couple game.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I'm sure we'll have plenty more after hours, we could put our... Or after dark or whatever the fuck we call it.
Em Schulz: Uh. I heard someone call it yappy hour, which I loved too. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wait. I'm too... Let's do that. Yappy Hour's so much better.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I... Who... I... [laughter] It's like the ninth iteration. I feel like our logo for uh... For the... Should now just be like all the names just crossed out and just a new one on the list.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it's just going to be... Jack's gonna be like, "I don't... I give up, it doesn't get a name any more."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You don't get to put name on it.
Em Schulz: Oh. Well, speaking of Yappy Hour, if you want us to keep you yapping, you can head on over to Patreon and you can listen to us yap, yap, yap all day long.
Christine Schiefer: About our shadow selves. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: About our deep dark secrets about our personal lives.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Isn't that nice?
Em Schulz: Uh, and also, congratulations to Christine for 300 episodes, um...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Not a billboard in sight, but...
Christine Schiefer: Hey.
Em Schulz: Just you wait for episode 500 on That's Why We Drink and...
Christine Schiefer: Congratulations on completing 394 episodes Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I'm gonna have... We're gonna throw a big party in six weeks. Whether or not you want it, we're gonna do it because...
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait.
Em Schulz: I need it, so... Uh, okay. I'll... I guess we'll see it next week when it's... Oh my god, it's gonna be September.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. That can't be right.
Em Schulz: Uh. If... If not, it's about to be. It's...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Commin' up very quick. Uh... It's amazing how fast this year flew by.
Christine Schiefer: It's incredible.
Em Schulz: Anyway, thank you everyone. And please go get our book because it is still on pre-order, not for much longer, and also please go get tickets from our live show.
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
