[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hi.
Em Schulz: Hi. [chuckle] What's cooking, good looking?
Christine Schiefer: I just woke up. [chuckle] From a nap. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You have a sleepy voice.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I fell sleep on the floor of Leona's room. She got home this morning from her trip. I didn't say on the last recording 'cause I was scared I was gonna get...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: In the night, but I...
Em Schulz: Why? Oh, oh.
Christine Schiefer: Because I was home alone for like five days and I just was too scared to say it out loud. [chuckle] Uh. But I've been home alone for five days, Em. Who... I feel like...
Em Schulz: A new person?
Christine Schiefer: Kevin McCallister from Home Alone.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I like, um, Blaise and Leona left and I turned into just like a feral human being. Like it was rough. I...
Em Schulz: Welcome back.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. It was... I was like, wow, I don't have my shit together if I don't have somebody to keep my shit together for. Um.
Em Schulz: I understand.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Welcome to my life.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: If anyone's ever wondering if why I just seem like I'm always living in a wasteland, it's because I don't have anyone else to worry about, so.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It was incredible. I was like... The first day was rough. Then I like, I think I got it out of my system, and by day three I was like, okay, I can be a human again, I don't need to like live in my little hovel of my own making. So I got back on track and I pulled myself together and had an enjoyable time, um, but now they're back and, uh, we're back at... We're back at it. But nothing scary happened when I was... When they were gone, so I was hoping maybe...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: There would be something ghosty to share but nothing happened.
Em Schulz: It's... It's weird to hope that something ghosty happens for content, actually really hope nothing happens at all.
Christine Schiefer: I think in the moment, I absolutely did not hope for it, you're right. I probably turned off any sort of signaling 'cause I was too scared.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] What did... What did Leona do while she was away?
Christine Schiefer: They went to Connecticut to visit Grammy and Papa, and they had a lot of ice cream and they went swimming a lot, and she went to Dinosaur State Park where she could collect rocks and geodes and fossils. Um. It sounded like a fun time.
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: Not as fun as me ordering sushi at like 03:00 in the morning and... And then ordering Sonic and sitting in my bed and eating all of it, so...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that sounds much more fun for me. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, nothing quite so fun as that. But yeah, I've... They're back and I woke up early to get them from the airport and then immediately fell asleep in Leona's room.
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, before you ask, I'm drinking my venti drink and I'm drinking a Hazelnut Oatmilk Shaken Espresso 'cause that's my favorite drink right now at Starbucks.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. I am...
Christine Schiefer: What about you?
Em Schulz: Um. I am just drinking a big drug water, I haven't been going to really any coffee shops or anything in a long time, so I've...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Just been doing water.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I mean, it's just easier. I don't... It just keeps me from having to keep refilling my cup, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I love that. It's humongous. Is that a gallon?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I do better just carrying around a gallon. 'Cause otherwise then I have to think about getting more water.
Christine Schiefer: Refilling it. Yeah, forget it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't wanna do that. Um.
Christine Schiefer: That's why I don't drink water. Then you don't have to worry about refilling it.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, speaking of which, wherever on the range you are to the dirty little rats out there... Thirsty little rats. I keep saying dirty little rats, but I'm kind of into it. Um. To all the thirsty little rats out there. Drink up or, or have a... Have a, a coffee apparently. [chuckle] So, um, don't drink water or do. It's up to you.
Christine Schiefer: You can drink up. You can just drink up whatever you're drinking, you don't have to specify, you know. Just drink up.
Em Schulz: You can lap out of a puddle, like a real true, thirsty dirty little rat.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, this is getting weird, but um, uh, I was really excited 'cause Megan, our social media gal, made brat summer, but rat summer, thirsty little rat summer memes to share on Instagram. That gave me a good chuckle.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I know I got a kick out of that. I... I really appreciate all of the, I don't know if you're keeping up with the news, but they're doing a lot of having to teach boomers what the Gen Z lingo is these days, and everyone's calling Kamala, Brat, and everyone's calling um... Everyone's calling Tim Walz a Midwest Princess.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And they had to do a literal segment on the news about how those are good things.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. Um.
Em Schulz: Loved it.
Christine Schiefer: Not wrong. You know?
Em Schulz: No. I'm down with it. Uh. Anyway, uh, I'm glad that you had some time off mentally from being a mom. I would need that all the time, so...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: I'm very proud of you.
Christine Schiefer: It was a refreshing and it was long enough that at the end of the last day I was like, oh my gosh, I missed them so much. You know, it's that perfect timing of like...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's nice.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, now what? I've done everything I needed to do. I did... I had a seance. My friend came over for wine and we had a seance, just the usual stuff. And then Leona, I was like, I miss her. And then the next morning they came home. So it was good timing. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: That's lovely. I... See, that's why I don't think a child is for me, 'cause I think I would realize, oh yeah, I enjoy this a lot more, I hope they don't come back. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I think I'm, I'm exactly where I'm meant to be right now. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I think... I think you just kind of learn to know... Yeah, I think... I don't know, I don't know. Don't speak too soon. I mean, listen, I had a great grand old time, but I did realize I cannot keep my shit together, um, when left to my own devices, so...
Em Schulz: Fair enough.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. And the animals are good?
Christine Schiefer: Everybody is happy. The boys loved being with me all week. Um. All of them slept in my bed.
Em Schulz: Gio I'm sure... Gio probably loved being the only one that got attention.
Christine Schiefer: God, he became my firstborn all over again, it was such a pain in the ass. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: He's just like lurking in the halls waiting for you.
Christine Schiefer: He's lurking in every fucking... Not even in the hall, just like in my, in my face. Breath in my face immediately.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Every second of the day. It's really annoying. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, I'm glad... I'm glad you had a little rest, but is there a reason why you drink or is that... That's a good reason why you drink this week?
Christine Schiefer: Um. It's, I think the reason I drink is I got to live out my five days of, uh, pre-parenthood life. And, um, it was... It was fine. I think I just needed to get it out of my system. I needed a few days of just like untethered unhinged, like...
Em Schulz: Everyone needs that.
Christine Schiefer: Feral. Feral-ness. So I'm alive, I'm back...
Em Schulz: Rat summer, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, rat summer for me. Feral rat summer for me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I have, uh, I think a fun little story for you today, which is an urban legend of sorts.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And, uh, this comes out of Indiana. In Martinsville, Indiana. This is the Stepp Cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I like a cemetery story.
Em Schulz: I feel like cemetery stories are so hard to do a lot of the time because there's just not enough ghost stuff. Like I say this all the time, so I don't know. Here I go, repeating myself for the 400th episode, but they're so... So it's so hard to find enough information on so many stories where like, yeah, there's a haunted cemetery, but if the best I've got from like a dozen sources is that people hear a voice, it's like, well, how do I make that into a whole episode? You know? So...
Em Schulz: Luckily, this is one where there's enough to work off of, and I feel like I never really get to cover cemeteries, which is so ironic because it's a paranormal podcast.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: Anyway, so here is a cemetery story for all of you. This is, again, in Martinsville, Indiana, this is near Bloomington, Indiana, and it's in the Morgan-Monroe State Forest, which...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Wow.
Em Schulz: You already won't find me there 'cause it's a cemetery, but I have to go through a forest first? Absolutely not.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just lost. If you see me there I've just gotten very lost and please help me find my way home.
Em Schulz: If you ever find Christine in the forest, don't even ask why she's there, just grab her hand and...
Christine Schiefer: Just hold my hand.
Em Schulz: Gently guide her back to the road. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just hold my hand.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, apparently this is also known as the Stepp Precinct Cemetery, but nobody calls it that. It's the Stepp Cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Also, have we noticed my hair today? I slept weird and now I've got this pompadour situation going.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I'm seeing it now that you mention it, but it's... I love a pompadour on you. It's like very classic. Uh.
Em Schulz: I hate it. But it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's unstoppable. I have... I have a hair... A hair, one hair. I have, uh, a hair situation where if I'm having a bad hair day, there's no fixing it, it's too thick, but it just stays in place no matter what you do, so.
Christine Schiefer: It has a mind of its own. Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: I just have to embrace it. Luckily, I only have a few bad hair days a year, so um, when it happens...
Christine Schiefer: I like it. It's, uh, it's kind of voluminous. It's just a little different.
Em Schulz: It looks like... It looks like I put product in it, but this is just where we are.
Christine Schiefer: It does look like the thing that the kids are doing now where they get the big thing up front and they put... They get a perm.
Em Schulz: Oh, broccoli hair?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They call it broccoli hair apparently. I don't know if they call it that, but people who make fun of them do. So.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, it does look a little...
Christine Schiefer: Got a little perm going on.
Em Schulz: Extra crisp on top. Yeah. So I just, I didn't mean to interrupt, I just saw myself in the camera and went, oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, you interrupted yourself. It's allowed.
Em Schulz: It's a first. Uh. It's not.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So, okay, we're in a forest. The Stepp Cemetery is only accessible in this forest by a small dirt path. And it's this small rural cemetery, rural cemetery with between 20 to 114 graves. I looked at probably... Let me see how many sources I used this week.
Christine Schiefer: Between four and 20?
Em Schulz: Seventeen. I used... "Between 20 and 114."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: No, I used 17 links and apparently I used nine videos, and all of them gave me between 20 and 114 graves and they each said it multiple times, so I could not begin to tell you how many graves are there today.
Christine Schiefer: That's... So what? You want me... They want me to go count them? I mean, Jesus, can't somebody go count them?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Some were like very specific. I mean, 114, why don't you just say 115, like don't be a douche. You know? But then there was also like 32 graves, 56 graves.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I'm like, oh, okay. Well, I can't keep up. So at least 20.
Christine Schiefer: There's dozens. Dozens of graves.
Em Schulz: That's a great way to put it. There's dozens of graves there. Every source gives a different number, uh, but it's been around since 1851. The cemetery itself was established in 1856, so for five years, this was just kind of like a random little burial...
Christine Schiefer: Burial ground. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: People were just burying people here.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And I bet they were thinking like, "I hope one day other people do it, so I don't look fucking weird for burying my family members here."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like imagine being the first one? If you're like, I mean...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We don't have a cemetery. Do I have to pick where the cemetery goes?
Em Schulz: I... Yeah. Also...
Christine Schiefer: That's a lot of pressure.
Em Schulz: Well, here's the other thing, so it was bought by this guy named Reuben Stepp, obviously that's where we get Stepp from, and he kept it for 30 years. He then sold it to a different guy who then sold to a different guy. Basically, by the 1920s, it was owned by the state. The cemetery has about 50 tombstones, so they say, dating back to 1851, uh, which is five years before, and the earliest one is from the guy named Private Isaac Hartsock, who fought in the War of 1812.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So there are probably other unmarked graves, but since nobody was there to really label them, we don't know about that. And...
Christine Schiefer: So that's where the dozens from, right?
Em Schulz: Yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Got it, okay.
Em Schulz: And because I guess a lot of like vandals are coming in, and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: A lot of teens, you know how the teens are.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. With their broccoli hair.
Em Schulz: Their broccoli hair. They've been going in there and like, kinda destroying the property, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Because of that, we also don't know how many graves are left or how many graves there are.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the teens did it? Ugh.
Em Schulz: Damn teens. The teens... Since the '50s, the teens have been coming here and doing this. So the paranormal activity has been reported since the cemetery's beginning, so since the 1800s. And it's locally known as like a very haunted area of Indiana. One of the most rumored... Or no, not one of the most... Sorry, one of the first rumored ghosts to be at the cemetery does date back to the 1800s, and it is one of Reuben Stepp's children, not to be confused with Reuben's step children. Because...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a really good... That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Ruben's step-kids.
Em Schulz: So it said that he roams the property and apparently he's very angry and he will approach anyone who trespasses and he's like, "Don't come near me."
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: But here's the thing, this apparently is not true. A bunch of sources said that was the first time people started talking about ghosts but it was clearly made up because Reuben had 17 children, apparently his name was Jim Bob Duggar, actually. And...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: But none of them were buried there, so it couldn't have been one of his kids. Reuben does have a grandson that's buried there, so maybe it's his grandson?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Why did the name this... The thing after him, if he didn't even bury anyone there?
Em Schulz: I think he's buried there, but originally they named it this because he owned the cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he just owned it, it wasn't like he was like using it for his own family, he just had the property.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but you also hope that someone who like owns a cemetery like, likes it enough that he's gonna be buried in his own cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Kinda says he didn't trust his own...
Christine Schiefer: He's like a landlord, he's just like leasing it out to other people, but not using it for his own purposes, it's kind of weird.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, so... Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait. Maybe he was like really rich and they buried people on his property. Didn't they used to do that?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like he buried them, all his 75 not stepchildren in the backyard.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. He had his own cemetery.
Em Schulz: Well, so apparently, uh, he did have two sons... Okay, I'm confused because I'm telling you, the amount of sources, you'd think I'd get something fucking straight. Can't do it. Um. There are two sons. One source said it was Reuben's two sons, but that doesn't make sense when I finish the rest of the story here. Um. So I'm gonna go with another source that said it was just two sons that were here around Reubens era. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: That there was a family who owned the land and they had two sons. When Reuben owned the land he had 17, probably, sons.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So I don't think this is Ruben family.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't match.
Em Schulz: But a family who owned the land at some point had two sons, and when the father died, it was unclear which of the sons would get the land, so they ended up dueling, literal shooting each other duel.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: To figure out who would get the property next. Which I love that it's like, it's so picture perfect of like, how about one of us kills the other and whoever's alive...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Will get the land.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The remaining son will bury the other in their cemetery that they own now. Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Like did they bring a shovel to the duel just to get it started? You know.
Christine Schiefer: They probably already had a hole ready to go. Like whoever ends up, just roll him on in.
Em Schulz: That actually would be really convenient if you just dig the holes, stand at the foot of it and then both like...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: And then you just fall right in.
Christine Schiefer: You're done.
Em Schulz: So story has it that both brothers have perfect aim and shot each other and they both died. Whoops. So now they're both buried there, and apparently, because this is maybe an urban legend, maybe it's true, but it's so old there that they don't have any marked graves. Nobody even knows when this happened, what their names were, but the story is two of the original ghosts is the two brothers who killed themselves on the land fighting to own the land.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: This is how men solve things, I don't know what to tell you. This is...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: There could have been like any other way we did this, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: And they went the worst possible way. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, well, look at that. Neither of you get the land, so.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. What a surprise.
Em Schulz: Um. Anyway, one popular part of the cemetery's lore is that the land was once used by a fringe group called the Crabbites.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um. They're called the Crabbites because they were led by the guy named William Crab.
Christine Schiefer: By a giant crab. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: By Mr. Crabs. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: By a big crab that crawled its way to Indiana.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, listen, if a giant crab told me what to do, I'd probably do it, so I get it.
Em Schulz: Well, careful what you say, because the Crabbites were wild.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So Reuben Stepp, when he owned the cemetery, he apparently built a little church near the cemetery, and I'm guessing that was for people to go do their mourning or whatever it was.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But he also said this church is available for any like parishes who need a church. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So like if you're a local... As long as you're Christian. That was his whole thing, as long as you're Christian.
Christine Schiefer: You can like do sermons here or whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And so I guess the Crabbites heard that and went, "Great, let's wander on over there and see what this is all about." The Crabbites...
Christine Schiefer: I just picture that...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: All the little legs.
Em Schulz: Actually, you have to crab walk. Yeah. You have to...
Christine Schiefer: You have to...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Talk about a horror movie. Jesus, that's the scariest cult I ever heard of.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, when I was in elementary school, there was a game where you had to... It was essentially dodgeball, but everyone had to be crab walking and it was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I remember that game.
Em Schulz: God, that was just the worst.
Christine Schiefer: It was terrible. It's like today, you're gonna hit me with things, with giant flying objects? Like, god.
Em Schulz: With my tummy exposed? What?
Christine Schiefer: Oh forget it.
Em Schulz: If I had to grab walk today, I think all of my limbs would give out at the same time. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The joke would be, I would be laying on my back and I would not... I'd be like a crab that just got beached.
Em Schulz: Stepped on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, stepped on.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So anyway, they're all crab walking to church, and Ruben Stepp... Oh yeah, he built this church and now they're going there. So the Crabbites are a religious sect that believed that Jesus was born under an apple tree, so I guess they conflated the apple story and Jesus. They also believed that snake handling was necessary in a lot of rituals.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: They also believed that they themselves could resurrect the dead. And they believed that the Earth was square, which is a new idea.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I have got to give them some props, this is very creative. Like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: As far as all the cults we've covered go, this one's pretty unique.
Em Schulz: I feel like they were like at a writing... Around a writer's table and they're like, "How do we jeuje this up? This Bible is too boring. What do we do?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know how they used to say, uh, like when we were in TV school, they would say like, "Oh, to pitch a show, you say, It's like this meets this. Or it's like this existing thing, except picture them as crabs." You know?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I feel like they took a few pieces and were like, "Imagine a world in which all the crabs could raise the dead." You know?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Can you picture it? I can picture it."
Em Schulz: "Imagine, okay, you're on an earth. It is square. It is square."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. And you might fall off. That's part of the thing. That's part of it.
Em Schulz: You know, I gotta give them a little credit. I mean, I don't know anything about Flat Earthers...
Christine Schiefer: Gotta give 'em a lot of credit and I'm all about it.
Em Schulz: I don't know anything about Flat Earthers, maybe they also think the Earth is square. They must, right? Unless they think it's just like one continuous line.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, don't even get me started, Em. They think it's like a whole plane... They think it's like this and then there's like stuff underneath it like a...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like a...
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: I don't even know how to explain it.
Em Schulz: Well, they're wrong. Okay. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But I could at least give the people who think the Earth was square and in this Crabbite, I can kind of see where they were going if they're taking the Bible a little too literally, because apparently in Revelations it talks about the four corners of Earth.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So they were like, "Okay, so it's a square." So that would at least has a really straightforward answer versus having to like explain your, semantic you way into your theories. Okay, so that's why they think the Earth is square, and I mentioned the snake handling and rituals, we have not left that yet, so let's keep talking.
Em Schulz: William Crab, he believed, I don't know where in the Bible this shows up, but it's gotta be somewhere. He believed that he should be all the time carrying around water moccasins, copperheads and rattlesnakes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Um. Which like, I'm just imagining one of those like, those tropes of the guy with the big parka who sells you watches from the jacket and you just get like a bunch of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, trench coat.
Em Schulz: Moving snakes.
Christine Schiefer: A trench coat of snakes. Yeah. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, forget it. If it's three crabs in a trench coat, and he's selling everyone snakes, this is like nothing good can come of any of this.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: But imagine if that crab with a trench coat full of snakes fell in love with a snake with a trench coat full of crabs?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Me cute.
Christine Schiefer: Me cute.
Em Schulz: So um, he believed that with these snakes, at any moment he should be able to demonstrate getting bitten by a snake.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: And he believed, "The man with sufficient faith in the Almighty is immune from even bites of venomous reptiles." So basically, he thought, if you believe hard enough, even if a venomous snake bites you, the snake will die and not you. Because you...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.
Em Schulz: Prayed hard enough and Christ will save you.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And they would literally perform demonstrations where someone from the congregation would get bitten by a fucking snake and... And they survived. So skeptics believe that the venomous fangs were removed prior to this, obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. Because... Don't actually try that at home, the snake will kill you, no matter how hard you pray.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's kind of their whole thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so, uh, they would also... So that's the whole snake thing, that he just carried them around, and I guess if he felt like someone wasn't big enough believer, he would just attack them snakes. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Was it like the snakes were because of the Bible? Like snakes, Bible, apple tree. Jesus was born under an apple tree.
Em Schulz: They were already kind of... They were already like messing with that whole apple story, right? So the snake, the serpent would make sense, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Could just be like, "Oh, we've defeated the snake that Eve was too weak to resist." I don't know.
Em Schulz: I saw a video come up on my TikTok forever ago, so I don't remember which side of the context says... I think it was a guy who was an atheist proving to a room of Christians that they weren't fully believing in god because he held up bleach, and he was like, "Drink this right now and just pray hard."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: He kinda did the reverse of this, where he was like, "If you really believe that you're gonna be saved."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Which obviously nobody, like, volunteered to drink the bleach, and he was like, "Yeah, because you know that you'll die and god won't save you." Which is like, you know. That's neither here nor there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It just popped up on my TikTok and this reminds of like the reverse version of that.
Christine Schiefer: It does have a similar vibe. Yes, it sure does.
Em Schulz: Where it's like, "Prove that you know god will save you in trials and tribulations. Let me put this snake on your arm."
Christine Schiefer: Like, "Don't worry. You're safe." Like, um, okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So then... That's the snake thing. They also would of course speak in tongues, 'cause why not/
Christine Schiefer: I mean, if you've got the snakes, you kinda have to.
Em Schulz: Dare I say partial tongue. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So, uh, they also would dance in the cemetery nude. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that I can approve of. That's fine.
Em Schulz: Can't have a fringe group without excessive orgies, which they were known for.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Oh wow, so they're really all over the fucking map. 'Cause they're saying, "Oh, we're very religious, we're so religious that like the snake can't hurt us," and then they're like, "Anyway, let's all fuck each other."
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: This is kind of a wild.
Em Schulz: Even the snakes were in like a nest together or something like that.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I imagine the snakes were even concerned, you know? Just writhing around.
Em Schulz: They also apparently would eat animal sacrifices from the cemetery. The works, basically.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They were exactly what you expect to find in the woods, I guess, for a religious group with no church and they have to borrow someone else's. Um. So one woman even remembers her grandfather being paid back in the day to basically be like the security guard of the cemetery, and he would chase them out mid orgy at night with a bull whip.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Well, they probably thought he was part of the orgy at first, with that bull whip. Then he's like, "No, no."
Em Schulz: They're like, "Sticks and stones," yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah. Anyway, apparently there's that testimony of a guy being like, "I remember watching them mid orgy and like... "
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Also like, how are they getting to mid... Like you're a bad security guard if they're already naked and doing it.
Christine Schiefer: Well, he may have been just, you know, checking out the scene.
Em Schulz: He's on a break, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Taking a minute to, like, see where we're going with this before he decided to shut it down.
Em Schulz: He's like, "Maybe I don't wanna be the bad guy here, maybe I help you out."
Christine Schiefer: "We'll see, we'll see."
Em Schulz: Um. And then it got... And then it got to be too much and he saw that trench coat of snakes come out and he went, "Oh my god."
Christine Schiefer: "This can't stand. This can't stand. No."
Em Schulz: "So we gotta get out of here."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So at one point, uh, this is separate from the security guard, the actual police had to arrest 50 Crabbites, um, because they were obstructing a funeral, like a burial, um, because remember, they thought they could resurrect the dead.
Christine Schiefer: Oh duh. I completely forgot about that part.
Em Schulz: So they went to some woman's funeral and they were like, "Don't worry, family of the woman who's dead. We got this, we'll bring her back to life." And they were probably fucking with her body...
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: And like the whole family had to watch this happen. So...
Christine Schiefer: And they're probably fucking because they have orgies there.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But so the whole family is like, Get away from our dead loved one we're trying to bury."
Christine Schiefer: Yikes. Yeah. That's bad.
Em Schulz: Somehow there's an escalation, one of like the family members of the dead woman hit one of them, which honestly I would have too, so I don't blame that, um, but then it escalated into the Crabbites saying that the family members tried to put dynamite in the Crabbite Church and like blow up their church, which like, that sounds like you're mad at the family, so why you're trying to resurrect the dead? I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like why try to do them a favor.
Christine Schiefer: Just like... Oh, they said that had happened before?
Em Schulz: Yeah. They were like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I mean I obviously wasn't there. But apparently they accused some of the family members of the deceased person of like trying to blow up their church at one point.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh god. What? Okay.
Em Schulz: It sounds really messy. It sounds like a funeral I'd love to attend. But it sounds...
Christine Schiefer: This sounds like something out of TLC, but yeah.
Em Schulz: If my funeral doesn't sound that dramatic, I honestly, I'm gonna be so upset with those at the funeral.
Christine Schiefer: You know I've already got a handle. Don't even worry.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Whether or not you're alive, I will create some sort of diversion or five.
Em Schulz: I mean, a trench of snakes is probably good. You can do that. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I did write that down in my notes of Funeral For Em on my phone.
Em Schulz: People will certainly, there will be carnage, you know? That's all I really want.
Christine Schiefer: For sure. At the bare minimum.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It will be memorable. I would at least like to be a funeral people don't forget.
Christine Schiefer: Again, bare minimum. Don't even worry about it. I've got it handled.
Em Schulz: So, uh... Oh. So they get arrested because they're obviously being a nuisance to this fucking funeral.
Christine Schiefer: A nuisance is, yeah, one word for it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: One word. And at court, when being like tried... Or not being tried, sorry. When they're being questioned or interrogated, whatever the word is, when they're at the stand, they start fucking screaming in tongues.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And that's what the judge said. So apparently they...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Thanks again.
Em Schulz: Oh god, not another one. So five of them, which is interesting, only five out of 50, so I don't know if they were like... I don't know what the story is there, but five of them were guilty of rioting. That's what the charge was.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um. And then shortly afterwards, more Crabbites had to be arrested at another funeral because they were annoying the sister of the deceased at this one.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: And basically, I guess I'm sure she said something. This is a small rural town at the time. I'm sure she had heard about them, she probably saw them at the last funeral and was like, "Get the fuck out of here," and was criticizing them in some way where it was very clear she did not agree with their beliefs. So then they all surrounded her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh-oh.
Em Schulz: And this is the sister... Imagine like Xandy's dead and at the his funeral, now they just all surround you.
Christine Schiefer: You don't even get like peace for a minute. Yeah. What the fuck.
Em Schulz: And uh, they start screaming in tongues all around her, chanting over her as if they're gonna change her. I don't really understand.
Christine Schiefer: And especially if you're very religious, like this is horrifying. You know?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Like if your religious in like a different way than these snake people. Oh my god, that would be so scary and upsetting and disrespectful.
Em Schulz: And also like it's on the worst day of your life, like you already don't have like your wits with you to even like stand strong. So it probably almost made them feel emboldened that like you were breaking down, they probably thought they were actually doing like a work in you or something.
Christine Schiefer: Ew, ew.
Em Schulz: So anyway, however much of this... Those were the two main stories I was able to find. Um. And by the way, that's a shoutout to I think the site was called Paraholics, which I love that.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: That sounds like us. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They were the only source who like really tried to go anywhere in depth with the Crabbites. So I was really... Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: They know. They get it. They get it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, they get it. They get it. They did not mention the trench coat of snakes quite like we do, but they did kinda get it.
Christine Schiefer: It's okay. They're on their way. We get it a little more. They get it almost as much.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, people believe that because of all the Crabbites... That was... Sorry, that was a derail with the Crabbites, but it was too interesting to not mention. But they were known to go to the church on this property, they were known to be running away all the time from, you know, mid-orgy they were being chased out of this cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They were doing other rituals in this cemetery, they did their snake demonstrations in this cemetery. And so because of all this, people believe that their activities in the cemetery also left a paranormal residue, causing activity now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a paranormal residue. That's... That's good.
Christine Schiefer: Now, that I wrote myself. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: That's good. Yeah, I like that. Paranormal residue.
Em Schulz: So, some visitors to the cemetery still see people in robes roaming the property. Now, I don't know if that means that... And not in a ghost way, like they see people in robes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, I was thinking the same people. Okay.
Em Schulz: Maybe... Can you imagine a ghost where he just throws a snake out of his pocket at you? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Like is the snake... I know we've discussed it before, is the snake also a ghost? Or as he found living snakes? Like...
Em Schulz: Is the trench coat a ghost? Do trench coats...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Do trench coats... Help me. Now I've lost the plot aggressively.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So, some have... Yeah, people walk around in robes. I'm assuming that they're real people. Because people have like reported these people in robes like following them home. Very creepy.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Oh god.
Em Schulz: This is where I stand firmly in the fact that I would rather have a ghost almost follow me home than like a man. I mean... Man or bear? Man or ghost?
Christine Schiefer: A human, yeah. Man or ghost?
Em Schulz: I'm gonna pick the ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, same. Out of all three, I'm gonna pick the ghost, quite frankly.
Em Schulz: This is why also I think your side is always scarier because yours is actual true crime. If there's a man in a robe and I know he's a ghost, I'm a lot less scared than if it's a, just a man in a robe.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, it's like we have some built-in protections we can use, but with a, with a real person, oh-oh.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The clock's ticking.
Em Schulz: Well, so people spot folks in robes running around, apparently they will hiss at you because now they think they're snakes. I don't fucking understand.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Are they like pranking you? That's so annoying. If they're like teenagers trying to be... Trying to scare people.
Em Schulz: I hope so.
Christine Schiefer: I hope so too.
Em Schulz: That would be much better than someone really thinking they're a snake and you're alone in the woods with them.
Christine Schiefer: Now in the hierarchy, you have the teenager, he's up top 'cause I think I can take him.
Em Schulz: Yeah, somehow teenagers are all of a sudden less scary for a moment.
Christine Schiefer: Just for one brief moment.
Em Schulz: They have followed people on the trail. Apparently they have just approached people and said that they're gonna conjure dark spirits. People have seen people in robes and then heard chanting. So it's kind of assumed that either they're Crabbite fans or maybe they're their own sect, their own fringe group.
Em Schulz: Or maybe they're, honestly, like I know I'm throwing a lot of shade, but now let me do the light side of it, maybe they're just a little unstable, but they're like also just doing their own little, I don't know, witchcraft or something. I don't know. I don't know what they're doing, so. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there's no way to know. Maybe they're... Maybe they don't have bad intentions. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe they just like to hiss at people. Leave them alone. Okay?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, leave them alone.
Em Schulz: Uh. Somehow less scary people who are seen here are, a woman in white, because of course.
Christine Schiefer: Always. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And the woman in black, because of course.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Both? Wow.
Em Schulz: I saw... Someone DM'ed me and they were like, "Can you stop saying that there's always a woman in black in stories?" And I was like, "Okay, then tell me a story where I have no... "
Christine Schiefer: Why would somebody say that? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I think they think I'm making it up. I don't know. But they were like, "Man, it's so overdone." Or they're... The DM, it said something along the lines of like, "Your stories are all starting to sound the same," and I'm like, "It's ghosts, babe. What do you want me to do?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, wow.
Em Schulz: I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry that they're not as... Let me call heaven and tell them to get more interesting for you.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Listen, are the snake doing it for you, my friend? Whoever you are. The snakes have got to do it, if nothing else can.
Em Schulz: They were like, "Have an original story," and I was like, "Did you forget that I'm not writing these stories?" I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Wait a minute. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So stupid. Okay, so anyway, sorry to whoever that person was, but there's another woman in black, so get over it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Um. There's a woman in white and a woman in black. The woman in white is less known. She has one little blip on the radar and then the woman in black is the real show stopper here, so.
Christine Schiefer: Keep the star. Okay.
Em Schulz: So the woman in white is often seen wandering through the cemetery, but very soon she morphs into something much darker and scarier. And then it kind of just ends there. There should be more information on that, but only two or three resources even mention her and they were all vague. But I think that's, again, because the woman in black is so popular, everyone's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's mention her and now we don't have to anymore."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Check mark. Move on.
Em Schulz: Um. So woman in black, most common spirit in the cemetery, many, many versions of her story. Like many, many. Actually, I found, uh, one website where they just documented every single variation of her story they could find, and they got to like almost 30.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow.
Em Schulz: So I'm not gonna go through all of them 'cause I don't wanna bore anybody, but I'll definitely, um, cover it enough. So when approached, apparently she will either disappear or run away. She's also seen walking by the trees and then fading away on her own, whether or not you approach her. Others have seen her bending over digging, as if she's digging a grave or exhuming...
Christine Schiefer: With her hands?
Em Schulz: Or exhuming a body up. Yep, with her hands.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. That's creepy.
Em Schulz: And many report hearing her crying or humming while holding a baby.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So the main gist of this... Or gist, as Christine would say, is...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Shut up. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Is that she's exhuming her baby and then holds it and hums to it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's dark.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's kind of the main thread of the woman in black. In fact, her digging... Oh, I just said that. In fact, her digging is said to be her exhuming her baby, and the grave she's often seen by or digging or crying by, is all the way at the back of the cemetery, if you wanted to see the grave yourself. And a lot of people do. Apparently, this baby's grave that she is always near has become the most popular grave of the cemetery because people will leave a bunch of toys and trinkets for the baby.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. So there is an actual grave of a baby there.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And the grave has the name Baby Lester 1937 on it.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: So everyone thinks immediately, oh, Lester must be her baby.
Christine Schiefer: Sad.
Em Schulz: But apparently... Oh, and one person actually got a picture of this like shadowy figure, and she's like in a dark veil, she like it looks like a real woman mourning. Which is super creepy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh god.
Em Schulz: Um. But anyway, the baby... Everyone says, oh, 'cause it says Baby Lester, and she's allegedly digging up this baby and holding the baby, she must be the mom. But Lester isn't even the name of the baby, the baby's name was Paul Lester, and he was born, stillborn. And no one... Well, if you're going off of like historical fact of this grave, this woman that everyone's saying must not be Paul Lester's mom, because Paul Lester's mom died in 2007 at 85 years old. So there's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Hang on. Yeah, okay.
Em Schulz: If the mom... If the mom is the woman in black everyone's been seeing since the '50s, it can't be her.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right. Okay, fair. She's like, "Wait a minute. That's my child's grave and I'm alive." Okay, got it, got it, got it.
Em Schulz: And by the way, the mom, because she was around until 2007, she has heard about like this like very popular lore in Indiana that Baby Lester's grave is a popular haunting ground, and it's like her dead baby's grave.
Christine Schiefer: That's terrible. That would feel so invasive and awful.
Em Schulz: She has said that the urban legend bothers her. Which, how could it not?
Christine Schiefer: No, yeah.
Em Schulz: I do think, I'm speaking for her and that's so fucked up, but I will say if this were the case for me, I'd be happy that at least like the grave is being visited and there's like trinkets and toys and people are paying homage to my kid. But at the same time...
Christine Schiefer: As long as they're not like pulling Ouija boards out and stuff, you know? Like you know some people treat it disrespectfully probably.
Em Schulz: Or even like the fucking Crabbites and like doing some like weird orgy on my baby's grave.
Christine Schiefer: Rituals. Oh god. Yeah, yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Sorry. I knew this...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, Em! [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I was... The computer read it as a thumbs up as I was talking about orgies on a dead baby's grave. Okay, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Em's computer was like, "We got it. Hold on, don't worry. We will nail it. We're gonna put a thumbs up."
Em Schulz: "Orgies on a dead baby's grave. Yay."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fireworks, celebrate. Yikes.
Em Schulz: Oh god, that was bad timing.
Christine Schiefer: Read the fucking room, Apple. Jesus.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So, where were we? Okay, so Baby Lester, she's probably not the mom because Baby Lester's actual mom has said, "I'm right fucking here and also stop doing what you're doing." So then people are like, "Well, maybe it's not Baby Lester, maybe we're just associating a woman we see holding a baby next to a baby's grave, we're assuming that they're the same baby, but maybe there's another baby grave nearby."
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And there are a lot of babies and children buried in this area, so for all we know, with like blueprint theory, maybe she's just sitting there holding her baby, and it has nothing to do...
Christine Schiefer: A different baby.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Has nothing to do with the grave. Or it could have nothing to do with any of the baby graves and she could, in this residual moment we're all seeing, she could be holding her baby grieving her husband or grieving another child. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting. Yeah, who knows.
Em Schulz: So we don't really know what her deal is, but she's very heavily associated with the Baby Lester grave.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um. And uh, she's also often seen sitting on this tree stump that has over time kind of taking the form of a chair, I think because so many people have sat in it, it just kind of has morphed into that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Weird.
Em Schulz: It has somehow become known as the Warlock Chair.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um. And I think that's because I remember I told you there's a lot of variations to the woman in black, some of the stories are that she's a witch, and so I think the Warlock Chair is because she was a witch sitting in the chair. I don't totally... There was no origin story to the Warlock Chair.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if it just like looks like a throne almost, and people are like, "Ooh, it's a warlock chair. That sounds creepy."
Em Schulz: That's what I thought too, and I'm hoping I just saw like not the best angle of it, but a picture I saw, it literally just looks like a fucking tree stump.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um. I don't know. I don't know what's going on there, but people are calling it the Warlock Chair. Maybe 'cause people go out there and do rituals, and that's where the head warlock sits. I don't totally know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I don't know either.
Em Schulz: At any rate, because she is seen sitting in the chair, on the tree stump, if you sit on the tree stump, apparently she will curse you and you will die a year from today. So...
Christine Schiefer: A year from today? Oh god, that's rude.
Em Schulz: So get ready, don't sit in the tree stump unless you're ready. Some people have said it only happens if you're sitting there under a full moon, but also it's illegal to be out there after dark, so if you're out there during a full moon sitting in Warlock Chair, you're probably already there for something nefarious. Or you're out there breaking rules anyway, so I can't really do anything to stop you.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "Oh, why are you breaking the rules?" "'Cause I wanna die in one year from a curse." Really? Why don't you go home and watch a movie?
Em Schulz: Touch some grass, girl. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Just like touch some grass and not in the cemetery, it's closed.
Em Schulz: Well, fun fact, the Warlock Chair has either been destroyed or removed, the stump was removed in recent years. So it's no longer there, but people still see the haunting of the stump because they still see the the woman in black... Not the Black woman, Jesus Christ. People still see the woman in black sitting on the stump.
Christine Schiefer: So the stump now is a ghost too? My god, it's like I can't keep up with all this. I'm kind of wondering like what... Is there anything that can't be a ghost?
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. At this point, I can't think of a one.
Em Schulz: Other than this version, like I said earlier, the woman in black, she might be mourning a different family member instead of the baby. So in the baby camp of the, she's there mourning a baby, there are several stories. One of them being that she was so wild with grief about burying her baby that every night until she died, she would go out there and un-bury her baby to hold it and then re-bury it. And just kept doing that over and over, and that's why we now see the residual haunting.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. No.
Em Schulz: People also say that she would just sit on the stump and talk to her baby after it was buried, people say that she died with the baby. There's so many versions of her and this baby. Then there's versions of her about a teenage girl, a teenage daughter, um, and some of them get fucking extreme. One is like her daughter was decapitated and now she's like trying to help find her daughter's head.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Um. Some are that her husband died in a quarry accident, and so now she goes with her baby to say goodbye to her husband. Some of them are that it's her baby and her husband who died. I mean, there's so... Think of any version you can and it's probably happened.
Christine Schiefer: Dear Lord.
Em Schulz: Um. One of the more popular, or I guess, more newer stories, 'cause this one happened around the '50s, '60s, '70s, this story came out when teenagers all started getting their own cars and they were finding little tuck-away areas to go drink and be bad teenagers.
Christine Schiefer: Smooch. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And smooch. And one of the stories that came out around then was that the woman in black was mourning her daughter, who was one of those kids who hung out in the cemetery doing bad things, and then she got drunk and sped home and got in a car crash. And now her ghost... Or now her body is buried there and her mom goes to mourn her. So I think that was probably just the teenagers being like, "Yeah, some girl died here one time, 'cause she was so bad."
Christine Schiefer: No, that's the parents being like, "No, she died 'cause she was doing bad things in the cemetery. Do you wanna be that girl who died in the car crash?"
Em Schulz: You're totally right. Yeah. It's like, "I knew a friend. She died. Oh I knew this one girl. She died. Don't do what she did 'cause she died."
Christine Schiefer: "Don't do what she did."
Em Schulz: So yeah, like I said, the story came out when our parents would have been kids, uh, and it was probably just as an urban legend, that one's probably the least believable because it sounds like something one of the teenagers or their parents made up. Although it could be real but the only major... I'm sure there were car accidents going on around this area, but also remember, this is in the thick of a forest, there's no fucking cars around there. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And also like, isn't she holding a baby, or am I like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, but again, some of the stories were that she brought the baby with them to mourn the other sibling or the other kid that she had.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay. She brought a baby. I understand. Okay, okay.
Em Schulz: Insert a woman holding a baby crying and then put any story to it, and someone has come up with it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And the baby is just there sometimes. Okay.
Em Schulz: Sometimes the baby's just there. Sometimes she's there morning the baby, which is why Baby Lester's grave is such a big deal.
Christine Schiefer: I see. Okay. Understood.
Em Schulz: Or she's mourning her husband. So it could be anything.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody knows.
Em Schulz: Um. And during this '50s, '60s, '70s period is when the cemetery became a big hang-out spot, 'cause again, kids were getting all their own cars, and they were looking for lovers lanes and that... Because also it was such a remote, isolated, secluded area, it was perfect to go like run away and do whatever you want.
Em Schulz: So that's when the story started really coming out, even though they say the cemetery has been haunted since the 1800s, which does seem to be true with ghosts of like the two brothers who had an duel, things like that, apparently there were probably ghosts the entire time, but it didn't really get popularized until more kids were there to spread stories about how dangerous it was and why they were there.
Christine Schiefer: That's how it goes. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It's like probably like the slaughter pen was not as haunted to most people until I started screaming about it, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Until Em's voice rose above the hustle and bustle, yes.
Em Schulz: Yes. And then the woman in black, regardless of who she's mourning over, people still see this ghost either crying, they see her just sitting in the chair sometimes. They... And again, the people that she's mourning could be anyone from her husband, her baby, her kid, a friend, who fucking knows. One guy even states that this woman in black approached him and said, "My baby is buried here," which sounds like...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: What that sounds like to me, like one of my friends who is like, "Yeah, I saw her. She talked to me."
Christine Schiefer: And like, "No, you didn't." "Yeah, she even spoke to me." You know, like overdoing it to try and sell it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I believe you less now.
Em Schulz: Another version is that, you know that that story about someone with a hook for a hand trying to open the car door?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, lover's lane.
Em Schulz: There's literally a version... There's literally a version of that where she has a hook for a hand. And she's there...
Christine Schiefer: No way. [chuckle] Come on, now you guys are trying too hard. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Anything is possible. I mean, I feel like in the '70s, that was when the hook story happened, so you could probably mesh those together.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're right. 'Cause it is such a lover's lane, like a warning story. You know?
Em Schulz: The most outlandish one I heard about her was that she was a witch, and uh, the local kids hanged her dog because she was a witch, and so she cursed the people who killed her dog and now she roams the ground waiting for them to come back. That was the wildest one I heard probably.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. I mean, okay.
Em Schulz: And apparently the dog was a German Shepherd.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: So because of that, a German Shepherd is often also said to be seen with her. Or like a wolf-like dog is said to be seen with her.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: This dog has also...
Christine Schiefer: I hope that's not true. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I hope not too, but also...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, most of the upsetting ones are not true, but kids can be so mean.
Em Schulz: Also, like are there wolves or coyotes or anything in a... Not in a forest? Not in a forest?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In a forest?
Christine Schiefer: No?
Em Schulz: I can't... I never know what animals go with which type of foliage.
Christine Schiefer: Well, where else would they go?
Em Schulz: Well, 'cause we have coyotes in the mountains, so... I don't know. I'm trying to justify why someone would see a dog out there.
Christine Schiefer: I mean there's definitely... I grew up in the woods and there were definitely coyotes, and I don't know about wolves out here, but there are definitely lots of coyotes. I feel like coyotes nowadays are everywhere, so I don't know, I don't know about wolves.
Em Schulz: Well, people claim to see dogs out in the woods, which if this is an area for... I should look that up. I'm only having the thought now. But people see dogs out in the woods and they claim that this is the dog that she lost, but other people say that they see a glowing dog who only sits by Lester's grave like protecting the baby, which is very sweet.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: In some versions, the woman in black was a Crabbite, and in others, her name was Anna, which I think they're trying to push her into more historically accurate stories because there is an Anna buried on the property who did lose a child. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I think they're trying to be like, "Oh. Well, she must be Anna."
Christine Schiefer: It matches up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Then this stump, aka the Warlock Chair, that also has its own variation. So then think of like 30 versions of woman in black, 30 versions of the stump, and then every version of those combined. It's like any...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, this is... It's just like never-ending.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so as for the stump, it was either struck by lightning and that's how it got its chair form, someone literally created the chair, like carved it out themselves, some say that the woman in black carved herself so she could sit next to her baby's grave. Some say this stump is where she died, which is why it's haunted, like she died while sitting there, maybe of a heart attack or something.
Em Schulz: There's one story where like a logger, like a Final Destination movie, a log off a truck hit him while he was sitting on the stump and he died. And that's why it's haunted. Um. So there's a lot of versions as to why that's haunted. Some people say that it's the reason why grass doesn't grow in the area, when really, it's probably people walking around so often that it just kind of keeps the dirt there, but...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: But no, I still think like I wouldn't wanna sit in it. I'm so one of those people where like if you put enough energy on something, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't play around with that either. I'm with you.
Em Schulz: I'm laughing about it, but I also wouldn't fucking sit in it, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. And I don't recommend anyone try it. You know? [chuckle] Hell no.
Em Schulz: Especially if there's one a chance that you're gonna die a year, a calendar year from that day.
Christine Schiefer: I don't want that on my conscience. Hell no.
Em Schulz: Uh. All these stories really started coming out in the '50s or '70s, like I said, uh, when more kids start showing up. And people still love to visit to see if anything paranormal happens. I don't know if this is true, but it looked like there were some opportunities for tours, but it's in the middle of a fucking forest, I think people kind of create their own self-guided tours.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Just follow the crab.
Em Schulz: Follow...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It will take you where you need to go.
Em Schulz: The river of snakes. Yeah. But people say that, I did see a lot of accounts on here that said that they didn't really feel anything, but it was also 'cause it was starting that day and they were with their group of friends, so maybe that's why they didn't feel anything, but there are some people who are like, "This place is so fucking creepy and there's no way you can't feel like you're being followed."
Em Schulz: And the weird remoteness and like the isolation of this area makes it feel like it's extra silent and eerie and uncanny. But people hear howling, they hear chanting, they hear crying from nowhere and everywhere all at once, which I hate.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. What? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It's like... It's like in your own head, you can hear. People feel watched, they hear footsteps walking past them, they hear leaves rustling like someone's behind them. They see orbs and mists, they see shadowy figures darting around and peeking around the trees. There's red glowing that is seen on camera, as if they're eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Electronics will malfunction, there's cold spots, people hear voices talking in the trees. And they smell oddly sweet odors, which sometimes can smell good, like perfume, but sometimes bad, like something rancid like death. Um. And then this is my last note and it kinda goes for the entire forest, but this area specifically is weirdly also known for UFO and Sasquatch sightings.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I don't know if that's because it was already known as like a hot spot, so people just kind of started...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it sounds like everyone's tacking on stories to this place like, "Oh, and another thing, there's a hook with... " I think people are just adding shit to the story.
Em Schulz: "Snakes and crabs and hooks and ghosts." Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So I don't know much about the UFO sighting except that people see things, but I'm sure if you're looking up in the sky, you know, I'm sure you can see stuff. Um. But the Sasquatch sightings are the more interesting one because the amount of Bigfoot sightings in this area literally got this forest on Finding Bigfoot, like on the the show, Finding Bigfoot.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up! It's famous.
Em Schulz: This area is where most of Indiana's Bigfoot sightings are. Apparently one source said that there were eight sightings in 2015 alone.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Which kinda doesn't sound like a lot, but I guess in Bigfoot world it's a lot.
Christine Schiefer: To me, it does like a lot to me, especially in like one area. Right?
Em Schulz: That's true. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Especially if they were different people.
Em Schulz: I will say the forest is 24,000 acres, so a lot of opportunity for isolated hikers to start seeing and hearing things.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um. And this is not me pooh-poohing on like hikers seeing shit in the woods, that's half the reason I don't wanna be in the woods, I believe it. I fucking believe it.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, trust me, if anyone's gonna believe you, it's Em.
Em Schulz: But I also wonder if the number is heightened because people are having kind of, not mirages, but that kind of like the... Like mental games are happening when you're in the woods long enough. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you're already scared, like you're there to get scared, and you're there to look for something scary, you're probably primed for it.
Em Schulz: I guarantee you, if I went into the cemetery in the middle of the forest and the sun was starting to set, I would fucking here something. Without question.
Christine Schiefer: You'd see Bigfoot within a matter of moments. You would call me and tell me you saw Bigfoot.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I don't doubt it for a second.
Em Schulz: Well, so anyway, I just want to at least put it out there that this place is very well known for Bigfoot sightings too, so it's... And the UFO sighting. So if you're into ghosts, if you're in aliens or if you're into cryptids, there's something for everyone.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it just happens to be in one of those weird ley lines or spots. Maybe.
Em Schulz: One of dots on a triangle, like one of the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: But anyway, nowadays the Stepp Cemetery is being preserved by the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project, which it bothers me when a name that long doesn't have an acronym.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so annoyed already. I tried it in my head too, I was like, seriously guys?
Em Schulz: IPCRP, the IP crap.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Whatever. And a lot of people still go, like I said, for the spooky-ness, but most often they leave trinkets behind for Lester. They're also probably there for some nefarious things, uh, which I am not totally against. Sometimes I'm into a good creepy little moment. Maybe no orgies, on my end at least.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe no defacing property or having an orgy, but other than that, free game.
Em Schulz: Other than that, do what you want.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, beware. That is the Stepp Cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Very good, Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I know you don't need like my approval, but very nice story.
Em Schulz: I appreciate approval. I'm not gonna say, don't do that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You? No, that doesn't sound like you. Nice. I agree with you, we don't do a lot of cemeteries, so it's kind of... And I, for one, always love the history of these stories, so I kinda love when you do something like this where there's, um, a story behind it too. Those Crabbites.
Em Schulz: Well, thank you. I wish there was more of like a story, story, you know?
Christine Schiefer: About the Crabbites. That's insane.
Em Schulz: That's I think the reason why I bring in so many of those little quick deep dives, because... Or shallow dives, I guess. I don't really know.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Because I feel like mine's always like, "So, this year this happened and then this happened this year." And it feels a little too... I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Disjointed?
Em Schulz: It just doesn't feel... Like yours has a story to it, but then again, yours factually happened.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And I'm pulling two or three bullet points from each website like it's the best I can do.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and a lot of yours are so much older, we don't necessarily have the sources to say what happened. A lot of mine happened in the current age and a lot of yours happened 200 years ago in a rural area where they weren't keeping records.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and by the way, this is... Whatever, this is a DM I got years ago that I still think about, but...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, they were just saying, they said something like... Oh, they were asking how many sources I have. And I was like, it always depends. 'Cause Christine has court documents, you have testimonies, you have witness testimonies, you have like police files, you have probably 20...
Christine Schiefer: Newspaper articles.
Em Schulz: Twenty documentaries about it. I have sometimes two blogs about an alien. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Blogging on like for Angelfire websites, like not even...
Em Schulz: Yes. One of these was literally an Angelfire website. There's only so much that I can do.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not even knocking it, I'm just saying that's how it goes with your stories.
Em Schulz: But someone said like, "Oh, Christine's sources are better." I'm like, "Christine's sources are real. What are you talking about?" [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Literally. That's the thing that drives me crazy, when people are like... Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you.
Em Schulz: Anyway, so...
Christine Schiefer: I got a rude comment the other day too about that, and it was like...
Em Schulz: Did you?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was not very nice. Um. I didn't even...
Em Schulz: No? Well, whatever.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: They were like, "It's time to shut down your podcast." I was like, okay. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: No, well, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: Well, I've somehow been able to find enough information on almost 400 topics, so I'm doing the best I can.
Christine Schiefer: I think you're nailing it, okay? So, whatever.
Em Schulz: I'm doing the best I can with Angelfire and fandom.com. 'Cause sometimes it's all I get. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And Zak Bagans will sometimes pepper in a few fun little cut-scenes we can throw in. You know?
Em Schulz: I know. Well, I was watching a bunch of... 'Cause I've also, I use YouTube quite a lot, but sometimes it's really like, "I'm gonna go ghost hunting in this location," but then it's like it's just someone who've obviously filmed themselves going ghost hunting and then nothing really happens. So I'm like, well, do I talk about it or not? I don't... I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. And if they're not adding anything to the history or... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm glad, 'cause most of the time when I cover... I brought all this up just to say I would like to cover more cemeteries, but I really don't get a lot of meat from too many. So I was excited that there was actually a cemetery with enough stuff. I looked up... I don't remember when I started these notes, I looked up unheard of locations, I don't wanna... I was trying to find a place to like... I don't know. That not everyone's covered.
Christine Schiefer: Below the radar. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And usually when I look that up, it's also like, good luck, you're not gonna find enough information. This one I found, I was so excited to do a cemetery, so.
Christine Schiefer: I love it. I mean, it's not... If it's near Bloomington it's only a couple of hours from me, you know?
Em Schulz: Is it really?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We're creating our own little...
Em Schulz: You could go sit on the stump and let me know how it goes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Bloomington, I think that's where Indiana University is, right?
Em Schulz: I think so.
Christine Schiefer: So if you guys are out there and you know about this stump, tell us the deets.
Em Schulz: I would like to think there's some cool quirky philosopher professor who makes them go out and hang out in the cemetery on like a field trip.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. What about like a psych professor, he's like, "This is how your brain tricks you into thinking you see like a ghost or something." You know?
Em Schulz: I had one. His name was Dr. Heart, he was really ruthless about how ghosts don't exist and it's all in your brain. I mean, it's literally, the class was called Why People Believe Weird Things, and it was just...
Christine Schiefer: LOL.
Em Schulz: And it was just all the ways that your brain tricks you.
Christine Schiefer: That class must be fucking packed to the gills nowadays, with QAnon.
Em Schulz: It was my senior... It was my senior sem. Oh, that's interesting. No, he did a... I gotta say he did a good job, like for a skeptic. He said all the right points, but him and I always duked it out on whether or not, like who was telling the truth. And he was the one who let me bring in ghost-hunting equipment as one of my final exams. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. Still think about that. And then...
Em Schulz: Sorry, last thing I'll say too. We used to have this thing, they got rid of it at San U, but it was called The Wise Woods.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Have I talked about these before?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: I love The Wise Woods. I don't know why they got rid of it, it was probably one of the worst things I ever did construction-wise, it was literally a big piece, just a... I don't know how big it was, but a big chunk of land that was still old school woods that had never been touched, and it was in the center of the properties. They'd built around it, and it was just like this one patch that they left as woods.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And philosophy teachers would take the kids out on really good days, and they had like benches out there and everything at a podium, so it kinda looked a little churchy. I don't think it was supposed to, it was supposed to be like a lecture hall outside. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like a little peaceful place in the woods.
Em Schulz: And they would teach meditation and stuff out there. I remember...
Christine Schiefer: That's so cool.
Em Schulz: I remember taking a class out there and I just remember being like, wow, this is like the cool college thing everyone's talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that is. That feels like something out of a TV show.
Em Schulz: And then the next year they got rid of The Wise Woods.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man.
Em Schulz: And ironically put, I think the Philosophy building or the Psychology building or something.
Christine Schiefer: The guy was like, "I'm tearing it down," that one professor.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Oh god. Okay, I'm done rambling Christine. It's your turn to ramble.
Christine Schiefer: Can I go pee real quick?
Em Schulz: Yeah, let me take a big swig of my gallon.
[music]
Christine Schiefer: All right. So I have a story for you today, this is kind of a unique one in that there are some professional athletes involved.
Em Schulz: Oh. This feels like when I cover... Back when I covered the Pfister and it was like all the Milwaukee Brewers are scared to stay there or something?
Christine Schiefer: No, no. It's everybody who flies into play at the Milwaukee Brewers, they put them up in that hotel to scare them. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And they think Mr. Pfister, who was a big Brewers fan, is like trying to scare them, so they'll be too tired to play well.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And some of them refuse to stay there now, which cracks me up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, yeah, so it's not quite that, but I don't often venture into the world of professional sports, for obvious reasons.
Em Schulz: Are the Olympics getting to you, is that why?
Christine Schiefer: Um. You know, that might be subconsciously why. I hadn't actually put that together, but it could be. Okay, this is the story of Sally McNeil, and I imagine you don't recognize the name, I didn't either, but I bet some of our listeners will be like, "Huh? That sounds familiar."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sally McNeil, She was born in Allentown, Pennsylvania in 1960. And as far as her childhood goes, her biological father left when she was really young, um, and was violent in the home and had abused her mother, um, had even kicked her mother in the stomach while she was pregnant with Sally.
Em Schulz: Oh. Shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So Sally had kind of a tumultuous upbringing. Her mother remarried when Sally was 3, and the couple had two more children together who became Sally's half-sisters. And this is when it becomes an almost Cinderella story because Sally was "not a favorite", that's a quote, in her own home.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Her parents, especially her stepfather, openly preferred his biological daughters over Sally and her brother, and so they got basically the short end of the stick. Um. Sally later recalled that even though they were younger than her, her sister has always got new clothes and special treatment, and she was just kind of cast aside. I mean, very Cinderella, very cliche. Like the dad and... Or the mom and stepdad in this scenario, neglected the first two children.
Christine Schiefer: Um. In 9th grade, she was grounded for months after her parents discovered that she was dating a boy who was Black.
Em Schulz: Oh boy.
Christine Schiefer: And so they just in general, were not great people, were very horrible to Sally and her brother, and as a way to cope with this, she turned to athletics and that is where she started to shine. So her school didn't have a cross country track team for girls, so instead she joined the boys team, and even though she was the only girl on the boys team, she was also the only person on the team to qualify to compete at a state level.
Christine Schiefer: She also placed in many competitions as a highly skilled competitive diver, so she was also very good at diving, to the point that she could have probably made Olympic level if she wanted.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She was very, very good. She was like an athletic star in high school. Um. But she didn't have the money necessary to pursue coaching and those kind of opportunities, and so instead she enrolled in state college and decided to become a gym teacher.
Christine Schiefer: But right before she graduated, one semester before graduation, um, she ran out of money. And with nowhere else to live, she followed her brother's footsteps and enrolled in the Marine Corps. And when she's in the Marine Corps she meets this guy named Tony Lowden in 1982 and they start dating. And she soon falls pregnant with her first child, Tony proposes and they have a daughter named Shantina.
Christine Schiefer: Now, Shantina was born with light eyes and blonde hair, and I say that because Tony who was Black, didn't believe Shantina was his child until they had a second child named John Jr who was born with the same light features. And that's almost like a foreshadowing moment because, let me just spoil it, that he also does not treat her very well. Um.
Christine Schiefer: He became violent and abusive once they were married. Neighbors on base, and remember they're on a military base, so neighbors are often hearing domestic violence, military police have to be called repeatedly. And so when Sally receives orders to transfer across the country to Camp Pendleton in California, she says, "You know what, this is where I cut ties, I'm filing for divorce. And... "
Em Schulz: "We're done."
Christine Schiefer: "We're done, you're done." During her custody battle with Tony though, Sally was pregnant with a third child whom she then placed for adoption, and as this custody battle wore on, Sally ultimately won custody of Shantina and John, the divorce was finalized in '87. And she was very excited to start a whole new life with her kids thousands of miles away from everything she had known. And it was there in California that she was introduced to the world of bodybuilding.
Em Schulz: Ooh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: That also had to be probably really empowering if you're like, if you come from like a shitty guy and you just dated a shitty guy, and you were married to a shitty guy.
Christine Schiefer: You're getting like beaten up. Yeah, yeah. And now you can build your own strength. And that probably was part of it. So I feel like when we picture bodybuilders, it is like a big like '80s, '90s... Do you have that same...
Em Schulz: Yeah, like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Muscle Beach. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, the Muscle Beach type thing, 100%. And so it even in my notes says Arnold Schwarzenegger is one of the reasons that this became such a phenomenon back in the '70s, '80s. And when women began competing, initially it was more like a beauty pageant, they'd wear swim suits and it was like, oh, they have a lean muscle, and it's about how good they look, but pretty soon women focused on extreme muscle gain, kind of like the men had been doing.
Christine Schiefer: And Sally was one of these women, where she was focusing on working out every single day, um, and while she excelled in the gym, her military career, unfortunately, was faltering. And that's because she had risen through the ranks to become a sergeant, but she was noted over and over for aggressive behavior and angry outbursts. Behavior which reportedly eventually led to her demotion in the military.
Em Schulz: Was she like on steroids for the bodybuilding?
Christine Schiefer: She sure was. She sure was.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes. They ended up, ultimately... We'll get to the actual crime portion of this, but it was very much proven that she was on steroids, yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um. So she's pushing on, she's... Even though her military career is kind of falling apart, she's doing great in the bodybuilding world, and in 1987, a friend introduces her to this guy named Ray McNeil.
Christine Schiefer: Now, Ray was also a sergeant and a bodybuilder, so they had a whole lot in common. [chuckle] Basically their two main hobbies in life, they have in common. And he had recently returned from being stationed in Okinawa, and Sally described it as lust at first sight.
Em Schulz: Okay, girl.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle] Whoa. So she and Ray immediately clicked and she felt... This gets me because, this sentence... Okay. Sally said said it was lust at first sight, she and Ray immediately clicked and she felt he would make a good stepfather for Shantina and John.
Em Schulz: Dang.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, why? Because he was sexy? I don't know, I don't know. I mean, that must have been something else about him that she liked.
Em Schulz: There must have been something going... I don't know, I have no idea. But that's, those two things are mutually...
Christine Schiefer: Just like the transition from lust at first sight to, "And he'd make a great dad."
Em Schulz: Those two things don't usually go hand-in hand.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: In terms of like first fantasies. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: First... Yeah, exactly. In terms of love at first sight. I just was surprised by that. But the two of them did immediately click and they opened up to each other really quickly. According to Sally, Ray had also endured quite a bit of trauma in childhood, he was sexually abused by another boy in the house where he grew up and so he had a lot of his own demons.
Christine Schiefer: And she and Ray related to each other over things in life, um, good, bad, their trauma, their bodybuilding, their struggles with their jobs, and they fell in love and got married after just two months of dating.
Christine Schiefer: So pretty soon, they're like this power couple. Right? They start competing together in bodybuilding competitions, they become the most famous couple in the bodybuilding scene. And Shantina and John said that it could sometimes be difficult to go places with their parents because they're already mixed race children of an interracial couple in the '80s, and now their mom and stepdad are running around in these massive, you know, swole bodies and almost putting...
Christine Schiefer: You can't be discreet in public, like the two of them look like those classic bodybuilders you picture when you think of like '80s bodybuilding.
Em Schulz: Definitely, there's no hiding it.
Christine Schiefer: There's no hiding it.
Em Schulz: So that's not something you can really physically hide either, like if the whole thing is you are visually getting bigger. [chuckle] Visually they're getting better.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, that's the point. And on top of that, even though you're totally right, you can't even really hide it. Not only that, they wore clothes, like tiny little things to show off their muscles. Right? So they're wearing...
Em Schulz: Well, it was Spandex era, right?
Christine Schiefer: Spandex, so they're wearing those tiny little, like tank tops and stuff, and then these poor kids who are in middle school probably are just like, "Mom, come on," probably so embarrassed.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Which, I mean, I'm not blaming the parents for that, I'm just saying, I imagine it's hard.
Em Schulz: At 12 I would have had a problem with it.
Christine Schiefer: I was embarrassed that my mom had an accent, right? Imagine... Which I know is fucked up, looking back, but as a kid, I was like, I just don't want anyone to draw attention to us. And so imagine like, they would go places and not only would they wear like teeny-tiny clothes, they would pose and flex when the public was looking and people would clap and take pictures.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I would have had a full-blown breakdown as a 12-year-old.
Christine Schiefer: It's so embarrassing as a teenager, yeah. Yeah, it's so embarrassing. But the children both really loved and were proud of their parents, so that aside, like to be clear, they did love their parents. They called Ray, Dad.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: They considered him their dad.
Em Schulz: Hey, she was right then. He makes a great stepdad.
Christine Schiefer: Well... He was...
Em Schulz: Okay, well... Okay.
Em Schulz: Not really. But yeah, they loved him for a bit and for a minute seemed like maybe he would be a great stepdad. They would tag along at bodybuilding competitions, and Sally and Ray, even both on the Armed Forces Bodybuilding Competition and sportscasters were all about them.
Em Schulz: Well, talk about a literal power couple.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. Literally, exactly. And...
Em Schulz: Brangelina of muscles.
Christine Schiefer: The Brangelina... The Arnold... The... I guess I don't even know who the Arnold Schwarzenegger... I'll think about it.
Em Schulz: Okay. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Transitioning from amateur to professional bodybuilding apparently is a very difficult feat, but... And very few people can make that leap, but apparently Sally and Ray were ready to do it and the world was cheering them on. So when Sally's military contract expired, because of her behavioral record, she was not allowed to re-enlist and Ray decided he also wasn't going to re-enlist because he wanted to focus on bodybuilding.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this, but amateur bodybuilding is a pretty big investment. Um. You need food, I mean, food alone to feed your calorie intake.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Intake, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Supplements, gym memberships. Apparently, they spend a lot of time at Gold's Gym, which really tracks. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Very 80's.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, very, very. Coaching, travel and entry fees for these competitions. Um. And I imagine a lot of body oil. That's not listed, but I can only imagine how much body oil you would need. And then like the laundry bills of cleaning the body oil off of all your stuff. Anyway, that's where my brain goes. But...
Christine Schiefer: Sally needed to find a way to support herself and Ray and the kids so because she had dropped her military career or was dropped, I guess by her military career, she began wrestling professionally in home videos almost, that were...
Em Schulz: Oh cool.
Christine Schiefer: Essentially fetish content.
Em Schulz: Oh. No. Okay.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: So it was like... So it was like she would wrestle with... Like these choreographed wrestling matches with average men whom she would dominate in these very physical ways, and that was sort of like a sexual fetish. And there were no sexual activities being done in the video. There was no... There wasn't porn involved in making the videos, but I guess this was kind of used as fetish.
Em Schulz: Did she knew what was going on?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So...
Em Schulz: So she knew it was like, it was kind of smutty for certain men who are into it?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the whole point of it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She would wrestle these guys. It was choreographed. So like she...
Em Schulz: Got you. I didn't know if this was like... 'Cause in the '80s and '90s, it was big to have like at-home workout videos, like Jazzercise videos. That's what I thought you meant.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no, this was definitely she was just doing this to kind of fill that niche of wrestling fetish, I guess, and women overpowering men.
Em Schulz: All right. You go, girl. Whatever you gotta do.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and so a lot of it was like thigh, head locks, it was all choreographed, so, you know. But she decided eventually she didn't like that the person who was kind of running this behind the scenes was a man, and she said she would rather, in her own words, exploit herself. If anyone was going to exploit her, she was going to exploit herself. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Good for you. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say. [chuckle] And so she started producing her own videos.
Em Schulz: Imagine her OnlyFans today? Like she would make a killing. Killing.
Christine Schiefer: Dominate. Dominate. So she started producing her own videos and she would travel the country to do these private wrestling sessions among her, basically this network of loyal fans. And she called herself Killer Sally, that was her, like her character.
Christine Schiefer: So Shantina, her daughter, remembers being ashamed about her mother's career as a young girl. Um. There was of course a stigma attached to fetish work. Um. There still is.
Em Schulz: Well, especially, yeah, back then. Like it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, back then especially.
Em Schulz: 'Cause here being like, "Oh, get your bag, do whatever you wanna do," but back then it was like it had to be such a dirty thing.
Christine Schiefer: And also, it's not our mom.
Em Schulz: Yes. [chuckle] Bingo.
Christine Schiefer: Not that I'm saying like, oh, we should treat someone differently if they're your mother, but I'm sure there's also that edge of like that same kind of embarrassment or like fear that people will make fun of you or that kind of thing. I'm sure there's more layers to it, especially being in your own family.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Great point.
Christine Schiefer: But Sally didn't mind the stigma, the money was pretty good. Um. You know, she used to have to dumpster dive for cans to sell to the recycling center, she was not having to do that anymore. The bills were paid. And meanwhile, Ray is able to focus on bodybuilding, he's winning these major competitions. He actually ended up qualifying for the Mr. Universe competition, which is like the ultimate.
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: Like the top top top. And she said, Sally said she loved him so much, she would do anything for him. Um. And Shantina said her mom was beyond in love with Ray. So at competitions, the whole family would stand on stage with young Shantina and John posing beside their flexing parents. So it was almost like a circus family, they're like, "Look at these guys, they're the famous bodybuilding family."
Em Schulz: I feel like I imagine them kinda looking like the Incredibles or something, like the little kids just standing on their big fucking shoulders.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Just a human pyramid.
Christine Schiefer: Posing.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Everyone has a cape on for some reason. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just a trench coat of snakes actually. You forgot.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So they looked like a pretty happy family and they were enjoying the limelight, they did everything together, but unfortunately, as we know, not just from this podcast, but from life in general, things are not always as they seem in the public eye and behind closed doors, this happy family was actually going through a whole 'nother set of issues, in that Sally had left one abusive marriage for yet another.
Christine Schiefer: So even though she had fallen in love with Ray or fallen in lust, and claimed he would be the best stepfather to her children, he was very physically abusive. He would often beat her, he even choked her repeatedly in front of their young children.
Em Schulz: Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: One of Ray's best friends described Ray as kind and gentle, but he also had a short fuse. And that you should be cautious around him.
Em Schulz: So kind of gentle, but not actually kind or gentle.
Christine Schiefer: As long as you are in line, he's kind and gentle. Like, ew.
Em Schulz: Kind and gentle until you piss them off and then he's actually neither of those things.
Christine Schiefer: And then you better run. Like, Oh my god. So Ray had worked as security at a bar and somebody had picked a fight with him and he ended up beating the man so badly, he blinded him.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And that just gives you an idea of how this man, how short this man's fuse really was. How he really could just... Could and would.
Em Schulz: I do wonder... 'Cause in my mind, obviously it's like had to be bad no matter what, but in my mind to beat somebody up to a point where they go blind, sounds like a lot of effort, but if you're that fucking jacked, I feel like what we're really saying is he hit one guy with one punch and it was just a little too hard of a punch.
Em Schulz: Not that that matters, I'm just trying to envision like how you even get into that situation where you've blinded somebody, like could he have just not known his own strength and thought he was just... He lost it for a moment and hit him? Or was this a full-blown, I'm trying to fuck this guy up, fight?
Christine Schiefer: I think he was going to fuck this guy up. Because that same friend who had witnessed this event also said, "I've seen him do some horrifying stuff to people."
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well that does that. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and I think from what we know, he was just a violent man and kind of only avoided arrest in that scenario because the police knew who he was, he was kind of well-known.
Em Schulz: Okay, got it.
Christine Schiefer: And on top of that, he also abused his own children. So when John was in kindergarten, he came home from school, this makes my heart hurt, he came home from school with a frowny face pinned to his shirt. And when Ray asked what happened, he said, "Oh, I acted out, I spoke in class and I got in trouble, and so the teacher put this frowny face on my shirt," and Ray beat him with a belt because of it.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: And he would regularly beat both children one at a time, the other had to watch. And John later claimed it was torturous to watch his father abuse his sister, Shantina, knowing he was next. And John said that Ray was like the devil to him.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, that's how Shantina described him. He could be loving and fun, and then just like on a dime, switch to violent and angry. And before you ask, yes, he was also on steroids.
Em Schulz: I gathered that.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Didn't feel the need to ask on that one.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh. He was once arrested actually after breaking Sally's nose during an argument, but Sally didn't pursue charges. He also once, uh, beat her so badly, her rib punctured her lung. Like broke a rib and punctured her lung. And again and again, little John and Shantina would witness Ray attack Sally in the home, and they just couldn't understand why she wouldn't leave, especially when Ray was attacking them too.
Christine Schiefer: And looking back, I'm sure there's a lot of layers to this, but Shantina always felt that her mom chose Ray over her own children instead of protecting her own kids. And going off of that, friends actually, friends of Sally described her as obsessed with Ray. Like no matter... Like one of those just classic toxic, violent, abusive relationships where it's like she just can't pull herself away from him.
Em Schulz: Right, okay, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's how her friends described it. And even when Ray started having affairs with other women openly, Sally stayed by a side. And she knew he had people on the side and she hated it, but she stayed by his side. However, when she saw a story in the news about a bodybuilder strangling his wife to death, Sally said she had recalled all the times Ray had grabbed her by the throat and started to strangle her, and she kind of had this "aha" moment of, "He's going to kill me someday."
Em Schulz: I can't imagine, again, just in brute strength, like I already can't imagine somebody putting their hands around my neck, but someone that big with that much strength and you know their stats and you know how strong. He could crush your fucking neck without even trying and. Yeah, I'd be beyond beyond scared.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so yeah, exactly. It suddenly hit her like, "Wait a minute. This has happened before, and now I know I could be next." So she decided it was time to leave and she planned to take Shantina and John with her back to Pennsylvania to stay with family, and John, little John, remembers Sally telling him to be ready to pack all his things and leave on a moment's notice. He said in an interview, "We were so close to escaping." Which...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Talk about ominous. That night, February 14th, Valentine's Day, 1995, a call came in to 911, and it was Sally on the line and she told the dispatcher, "I just killed my husband because he just beat me up." And hauntingly in the background of the phone call, you can hear Shantina sobbing and screaming, "No Dad, no."
Em Schulz: Oh god.
Christine Schiefer: And first responders, of course, arrive and they find Ray in a horrifying state. The Officer, Gary Schultz, interestingly...
Em Schulz: Shut up. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Dead serious.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Arrived to find Ray in a horrifying state. He had been shot twice with a shotgun, the first shot had smashed three of his ribs and disintegrated most of his liver and created a 5 inch by 6-inch hole in his diaphragm, and his liver was protruding out from his body.
Em Schulz: So I feel like her... I feel like people now are now using against her, the name Killer Sally, that she used for herself in the videos?
Christine Schiefer: Ding, ding, ding.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You really nailed it. Yes. Definitely helped the case blow up in the press. Right? It writes itself. You know? So the first shot had disintegrated most of his liver, a part of it, the remaining part of it was protruding from his body. His ribs had been smashed, there was a 5 by 6-inch hole is diaphragm. And after she had shot him the first time, he began to crawl away on his hands and knees, and Sally shot him again, but this time in the face, and this shot shattered his upper jaw, tore out half of his lower jaw and shredded his tongue.
Em Schulz: His tongue? His tongue?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so when police arrived, they were shocked to find him still alive on his hands and knees.
Em Schulz: Alive and nearly upright is crazy. I would have thought like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Like he's still fighting to survive or...
Christine Schiefer: He was trying to crawl away, and I guess when they found him, he was still on his hands and knees. He was completely disfigured, he was bleeding profusely, and he did eventually die his injuries. But... Obviously.
Em Schulz: His liver was hanging out of his body.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and most of it was gone. You know? And so in the moment, it was a very horrific thing. And to think that his daughter, or stepdaughter, I guess...
Em Schulz: Watched. Witnessed it.
Christine Schiefer: But Shantina was there in the background, crying like, "No, Dad, no," and this is watching this happen. It just...
Em Schulz: She had to watch him like getting up and trying to crawl away too.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: It's really, really, really dark. And Shantina and John, just to give you an idea, were only in 6th and 4th grade, so they're little.
Em Schulz: That's trauma for the rest of your life.
Christine Schiefer: For sure. Big time. They've already had enough trauma, I would imagine, but now this on top of it. And when police arrive, they put them in the back of a squad car and the kids were hysterical in the back of the cop car sobbing for their mom, and Shantina was trying to kick the window to try and get out to get to her mom. They were just so scared and overwhelmed, it just breaks my heart.
Christine Schiefer: So they get to the police station, Sally tells investigators she shot Ray because he was attacking her, and they informed her that Ray died at the hospital and now she was being arrested for murder. So Shantina and John were allowed to see her for a few minutes and you can... There's footage of this on camera in the interrogation room, they tearfully told her that they weren't mad at her.
Christine Schiefer: And Shantina asked if Sally was in trouble and Sally said, "Yes, I am." So John said he overheard a police officer saying Sally wouldn't go to prison if she killed his dad in self-defense, and he said to his mother, I mean, this poor thing, he's in 4th grade, he tells his mother to explain herself so that she can go home and Sally tells him, "It's not that simple. I'll get back to you when I can."
Christine Schiefer: And the family, hugs Shantina and John are transported to a group home where they were more traumatized or traumatized again, and felt totally abandoned and confused. And eventually Sally...
Em Schulz: And also like... Sorry, I was gonna say for... That's the night when a kid really needs their mom.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. To be alone and not know anybody. I mean, thankfully they had each other, at least they were together, but to be so little and not understand, and for John to say, "Oh, just tell them, tell them why you did it, then you can come home," and that fear.
Christine Schiefer: And thankfully, eventually Sally's family came from Pennsylvania to take them home, and so they at least had family, but yeah, that night where you don't get either parent. You know? I mean...
Em Schulz: Oh god.
Christine Schiefer: Sally meanwhile was released on $100,000 bail, which was paid for by her wrestling fans who gathered the money to get her out. And her defense lawyer, who was a public defender because she couldn't afford a private attorney, started developing a strategy that focused on portraying Sally as having BWS, which was called battered woman syndrome.
Christine Schiefer: Battered woman syndrome described the behavior of women who endured violence from their partners, and these women might use violent force to escape their abusive situation, which was considered justified, often necessary. And the signs of battered woman syndrome are today more often diagnosed as PTSD. And are not... You know. Battered woman syndrome is not an official... It's not in the DSM or anything like that.
Christine Schiefer: So in her defense, Sally claimed that the night she killed Ray, he had come home from the bar late, having spent Valentine's Day with his girlfriend, with another woman.
Em Schulz: Of course, of course.
Christine Schiefer: One of Ray's best friends was at home with Sally and she was in a bad mood about Ray, so the friend decided to leave and pick up dinner, but Sally asked him to stay. Apparently, things usually were more peaceful when this friend was around, right? Instead of, um, the two of them being alone, he was almost like a buffer.
Em Schulz: So she almost was hoping that he would be with her. It's like at least he won't beat me when he's with another woman.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that he'd be around. Exactly. And he said, "No, I'm gonna go grab food, but I promise I'll be right back." Well, famous last words, because by the time he returned, Ray had come home and the chaos had unfolded, police were already there.
Christine Schiefer: Sally said when we got home, they had gotten into an argument because apparently he had bought chicken from an expensive grocery store that she knew she couldn't afford, and she was the primary income of the family, the sole income of the family. And so she kind of called him out for buying this expensive chicken at the grocery store and then said, "Where were you? With your girlfriend?"
Christine Schiefer: And I guess that's when he started choking her. And 12-year-old Shantina corroborated this. She testified that although she was in her bedroom, she knew Ray was strangling her mother because she had heard it happen so many times.
Em Schulz: Oh, she was used to the, like, the gagging sounds. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. She said you never forget that sound.
Em Schulz: No, I can't imagine you do.
Christine Schiefer: That is traumatizing. So Sally broke free and ran to the bedroom where she kept a sort off shotgun, and she explained that she owned this gun for safety, but she often used it as a prop in her wrestling and bodybuilding videos in which she portrayed Killer Sally.
Em Schulz: That's gonna come back and bite her on the ass.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's rough. Sally said she loaded the shotgun with one bullet and shot Ray and this bullet broke his ribs. And even though at first he wasn't dying of the injuries, it became a lethal shot because he eventually bled to death internally in his chest and abdomen. But Ray advanced on Sally in a rage, so she shot him again, this time in the face.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Now hearing these shots, Shantina thought that Ray had slammed Sally into furniture and that he was going to kill her, so she bursts out of her bedroom holding a baseball bat prepared to defend her mom. Instead, Ray is on the ground, covered in blood with the most horrific, gruesome injuries, and the story then unfolded the way we talked about it, and it became a media sensation.
Christine Schiefer: So of course, reporters take this on with Killer Sally, all this, they call Sally a Pumped Up Princess and Brawny Bridge, they ran headlines like... Like literally calling it fucking down.
Em Schulz: Back up. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Back the fuck up. They ran... Go touch grass, as Em said earlier.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Go touch a little grass. Go sit in The Wise Woods and think about what you've done.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Is that what it's called, The Wise Woods?
Em Schulz: The Wise Woods. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I love that so much. So they ran headlines like, "Instead of pumping iron, she was pumping bullets into her husband."
Em Schulz: Oh, my fucking god.
Christine Schiefer: That's not even clever. What?
Em Schulz: Well, yeah. I feel like this was just the perfect ammo for women hating men to just really finally be like, "See, look what they're all about."
Christine Schiefer: "See, go home and watch your... Feed your children," you know. Oh god. News stations, of course, focus on Sally's physique and called this, here we go, called into doubt that she could be abused because she was so strong.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, she was asking for it.
Christine Schiefer: You can't win as a woman. It's like, "How could you be beaten up, look how many muscles you have?"
Em Schulz: It's like look how fucking big he was?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: If we're gonna compare her to other women, we should compare him to other men, and then what do you know? They are the exact same.
Christine Schiefer: Yep, and just like you had already alluded to, it was revealed that both Sally and Ray were using steroids. On the night he was killed, were had five different types of steroids in his system, and Sally had one.
Em Schulz: And that one was too much compared to his five, I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure. But either way, people began to blame roid rage for both Ray's attack and Sally's defense, and the idea that all of the steroid misuse led to this elevated anger. I mean, the fact that she had even been fired from the military for her outbursts and the constant violence in the home, there was a lot that people pointed to the steroid misused for that.
Christine Schiefer: But neither the defense nor the prosecution focused on the steroids, instead the defense was concerned with a long-standing pattern of abuse in Sally's marriage. The prosecution focused on the same thing, but a different angle. According to them, Ray wasn't the sole aggressor, in fact, investigations revealed that Sally herself had a long history of aggressive and violent behavior.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like we, said it to cost her her career in the military. Ray's friends reported Sally sometimes picked fights with Ray and kind of egged him on physically, like with shoves and trying to rile him up. Sally once discovered that Ray was having an affair with another bodybuilder, and so when she was at a competition and saw the woman in the audience, she grabbed her by the hair, pulled her to the floor and punched her repeatedly until she was pulled off of this woman.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And as a result, she was banned from competing for a year. So they both have this like, just tumultuous history of violence with each other, with other people. And she was also reportedly involved in physical fights with neighbors, even the police. One time she tried to fight the police when they came to arrest her. Just a lot of, um, red flags.
Em Schulz: And this is all documented, so it is factual that she also was...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I mean she also was... Right, with the military thing too. Yeah, okay. But that doesn't excuse anything, but that... Interesting. It makes sense, 'cause they're both...
Christine Schiefer: It paints a broader picture, like a more...
Em Schulz: If they're both "roided out", that they would both be dealing with this.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly. And it seems like... I mean, we already talked about how she was... It was lust at first sight and how it was a terrible abusive cycle where she just was obsessed with him. And then to add steroids into that? I mean, good luck. You know?
Christine Schiefer: One of Rays friends said that he loved the entire family, including Sally, but that their relationship was extremely toxic from the beginning. Yeah. And apparently Ray had told his friends shortly before his death that he was in love with another woman and was planning to file for divorce. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah, and miss Valentine's Day probably.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, things were getting heated. And the prosecution believed Sally actually attacked Ray in a fit of jealousy, not self-defense, and so they charged her with first degree murder, claiming that this was a premeditated killing. But Sally insisted that in all the time she had a gun in the house, it had never occurred to her she might have to use it against Ray. And she stuck to her story about this being self-defense.
Christine Schiefer: However, that's when they brought in the forensic evidence. So Sally said she had run to the bedroom, grabbed the gun and two bullets, shot Ray once in the living room and immediately reloaded for the second shot. So to reload the shotgun, Sally to open it and release the first slug shell which would fall to the floor where she stood. But that slug shell wasn't in the living room, it was in the bedroom.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: In other words, she didn't bring two bullets with her, she loaded the gun once, shot Ray, returned to the bedroom, got another bullet, reloaded the gun again. So he had already been basically... Um.
Em Schulz: He was already down.
Christine Schiefer: He's down already. Yeah. And so she went back and reloaded a second time and shot him again. And Sally also claimed that Ray was still standing and advancing on her when she shot him the second time in the face, but the blood spatter from the second shot didn't line up with the story, because it covered the inside of a lampshade near the spot where we fell.
Christine Schiefer: And so to be inside the lampshade, it would have had to be coming upward from the floor, if that makes sense. Like the inside of the shade had spatter, meaning it came from below. And so that evidence indicated Ray was lying on the ground when Sally shot him in the face the second time.
Christine Schiefer: So according to later coverage by the US Supreme Court, forensic evidence also showed that the finger nail strangulation marks on Sally's neck may have been self-inflicted.
Em Schulz: Oh gosh. Where they... 'Cause they go the opposite way that they should or something?
Christine Schiefer: It's actually the nails. The nails were... His nails were not long enough to have left these kind of fingernail marks on her neck, is what the...
Em Schulz: It was the '80s, those acrylics.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, those giant French nails.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: So the evidence cast some doubt on Sally's story, as did testimonies from Ray's friends who spoke on raise behalf and insisted that Sally was also a very violent partner in her marriage. In the prosecutor's words, "Violent women cannot be battered women," so that's their pitch here.
Christine Schiefer: So the trial began on February 14th, 1996, which was a year after the killing, and in a documentary, the prosecutor said, "Good lawyers want the trial to be poignant, so why not start the trial on Valentine's Day?"
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Sure, I guess, if you're gonna be dramatic about it.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Shantina took the stand, poor thing, to describe Ray strangling her mother, and she insisted that she knew the sound too well to mistake it, and that she indeed had heard it coming from outside her bedroom.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: She became emotional during the examination and the cross, so the defense attorney asked that she be excused. And because of this, Shantina felt she didn't get a real chance to paint a picture of how egregious the abuse was. She almost kicked herself for being too emotional and not being able to paint a full picture.
Christine Schiefer: And John, little John didn't get the chance to testify at all, he felt he was denied the opportunity to tell his mother's story. And so both of them felt like they weren't given enough space and time to share their story on behalf of their mom. And only one friend took the stand to testify in Sally's defense, because she was the only one who knew first hand about Ray's physical abuse.
Christine Schiefer: She said she had seen Sally with bruises, with broken bones after Ray had attacked her in the past, and Sally had mostly hid it from her other friends because she was ashamed. But there were also military records of Ray's violence towards Sally, and even though now they've proven that most likely Ray was physically abusive toward her, the question now became was she... Was this self-defense? Was she in immediate danger when she killed Ray? Or did she just decide, "This is it. He has to go and I'm gonna kill him"?
Christine Schiefer: So against her lawyer's recommendation, Sally took the stand, and during questioning, she was extremely rigid. Her lawyer explained she was following Marine Corps training and she answered every question with, "Yes, sir" or, "No, sir," and showed no emotion when the prosecution asked her about loading the shotgun and shooting Ray.
Christine Schiefer: So the prosecution asked Sally whether she went by the name, Killer Sally. She said no, because she didn't consider Killer Sally her actual name, and to her Killer Sally was this, like, character she was portraying and not even a nickname in real life. Nobody in her real life actually called her that.
Em Schulz: But you know the first time that she put those two things together, she went, "Oh, fuck." That's totally...
Christine Schiefer: Face palm. "Oh they're gonna fucking latch onto that."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she was like, "No, I do not consider that my name," and so promotional videos of Sally holding the murder weapon as a prop and calling herself Killer, all this stuff basically was deemed irrelevant and therefore inadmissible by the court.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Because she's like, "I don't consider myself that. That's not my name." And so...
Em Schulz: Okay. That worked out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That was a character. It's not her.
Em Schulz: Well, so, um... Go ahead.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, so, are there technically out there for like true crime fanatics, I don't know why you would want this, but maybe you do, are there home videos you can buy of Killer Sally literally holding the gun in the videos?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't know, actually. I mean, probably somewhere.
Em Schulz: If someone would watch that and freeze frame it and tell all their buddies like you know, "Fun fact about this scene." You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I wonder, I'm not sure. I mean, maybe somewhere. It seemed like... The way it was described, it felt very like amateur, like she just did it for her fans mostly, you know? So I don't think it was ever like broadly distributed anywhere.
Em Schulz: Okay, got it.
Christine Schiefer: But probably somebody has it in a basement. So it could be out there.
Em Schulz: Someone has a copy and... Yeah. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so, you know, one of those blank VHS tapes might be very alarming. Uh. Let's see. But the prosecution was able to argue that Sally lied when she answered no, about being Killer Sally. So, oh god, it's all just semantics. You know? So they were allowed to present the videos and promotional materials in court because they argued, "She said no, but she was lying, so we do want to bring all the Killer Sally promotional materials in to court."
Christine Schiefer: And they did, and it was extremely damning. Sally's lawyer believed she'd be convicted of first degree murder. He was like, "She's going to life, she's gonna spend life in prison, there's no way around it." But after three days of deliberation, the jury found Sally not guilty of first degree murder, and this was shocking.
Em Schulz: Wow. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To her own lawyer.
Em Schulz: Especially back then, like for women, I was thinking for sure she was a gonner.
Christine Schiefer: She's done for. Yeah. Instead, they found her guilty of second degree murder and she was sentenced to 19 years to life in prison. So outside of the courthouse, a member of the jury told reporters the jury didn't believe that Sally's life was in imminent peril when she shot Ray, which was a requirement for killing in self-defense, and that's why they decided second degree made more sense.
Christine Schiefer: So John and Shantina stayed permanently with Sally's parents in Pennsylvania, and John said that although Sally's parents had struggled with alcohol use disorder when Sally was a little girl, uh, Shantina and John grew up well, loved in the home, in their grandparents' home and said it was a blessing that they took such good care of them. So at least there's that silver lining.
Christine Schiefer: According to John, he actually felt relieved when Sally shot Ray. He said, "Even if he lived, he would never be able to beat me, my mother and my sister again. I knew that it was over."
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't blame him.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I mean...
Em Schulz: What a tough thing to admit, but also like, who could judge you for that?
Christine Schiefer: Especially as a kid, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, like you just want someone to stop hurting you.
Christine Schiefer: You're scared. Yeah. For a while, Sally's family traveled to California once a year with Shantina and John to visit Sally, but they eventually stopped visiting. Sally said in an interview, "You can't expect a lot from your family, you can't make big demands because they have a life to live out there," which I feel like it's sad because I feel like she never got much from her family. She was a second class citizen in her own home because she wasn't a bio child of her father.
Christine Schiefer: It's just sad. It's just sad that she's like, "No, you can't expect too much from your family." It's like, well, not in your experience. You know? Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Sally repeatedly filed appeals from prison and her conviction was overturned, but the State of California took the case to the US Supreme Court and then they reinstated the conviction in 2004. Ultimately, she served 25 years in prison. Imagine this, she got out summer of 2020, so like what a time to re-enter the world.
Em Schulz: Wow. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Of all times. You spent a quarter of a century locked up.
Em Schulz: Do you think that's why she got let out? 'Cause I know...
Christine Schiefer: That's a good point.
Em Schulz: A lot of people ended up getting earlier releases because of COVID.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's a good point. I actually don't know the answer to that, but it's entirely possible. So upon her release, Sally received housing, rehabilitation and counseling reserved for veterans, and she met another veteran who was previously incarcerated and they fell in love and got married. This makes me so nervous.
Em Schulz: Oh girl. Come on now.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? [chuckle] Like just take some time to yourself. I guess you had 25 years.
Em Schulz: Be single for a minute. Be single for... Well, yeah, I guess you were single for 25 years, but...
Christine Schiefer: Had some time to think about everything. Um. But yeah, so Sally rekindled her relationship with Shantina and John, who now had their own kids, so she got to meet her own grandchildren, and she focused on moving forward with her life to enjoy her freedom and time with her family.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So essentially at the conclusion of this documentary, Killer Sally, which is on Netflix, by the way, um, Sally seemed pretty content. She, you know, had reunited with her family, she was employed at a warehouse, she was remarried. And uh, she said life is good. So hopefully, you know, all the tumultuous times are in the past. Um.
Christine Schiefer: There has been some criticism who... From people who feel that the interviews with Sally are, you know, one-sided, obviously, because Ray was killed. For example, one of Ray's friends felt that Ray was unfairly portrayed in the media due to racial bias, and that not enough people acknowledge Sally's own history of violence.
Christine Schiefer: But others believe Sally was unfairly convicted because she wasn't a perfect victim, so it's like, it's all very nuanced and very layered, I don't think there's a right answer. And although it's true that Sally had a history of violence, it was also true there was documentation of Ray beating her up and harming her and harming her kids. And you can't over shadow that with anything else.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Both people can be guilty. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. She wasn't a perfect victim, nobody is. So the prosecutor said that a violent woman couldn't be a battered woman, and a newscaster asked whether Sally was a strong woman or a victim, which, yikes.
Em Schulz: You can only be one of either. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: A strong woman or a victim?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That just makes me wanna scream, okay?
Em Schulz: Yeah. That was insane, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's like the most insane thing I've ever heard.
Em Schulz: And for a woman to be asking, right?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it doesn't say. It just says a newscaster.
Em Schulz: Oh. I assumed that she was a woman. No, either way, it's beyond.
Christine Schiefer: Somehow I doubt it. Somehow I doubt it, but who knows? So Leigh Goodmark is the author of The Imperfect Victim, and Leigh says that survivors of abuse can be both strong women and victims. Duh, okay. And oftentimes are. Just saying.
Christine Schiefer: And according to her, Goodmark, that is, society has a specific idea of how survivors of abuse should act in order to earn sympathy, which leads sometimes to the criminalization of survivors who don't fit the mold, such as Sally McNeil. And that is where we end our story today of Sally McNeil, Killer Sally.
Em Schulz: Wow. Great story, but you know. My usual comments. Well done, Christine. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yes, let me send you a photo of the two of them, just because I feel like it helps put... Just from that time in the '80s, '90s, you can see like how the fucking media at this shit up. Hold on. It's so not surprising. You know? Especially when you see pictures. It's like, oh yeah, I can see that the magazines... You know.
Em Schulz: Oh, come on. Yeah, immediately I...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I totally get it.
Christine Schiefer: And the pictures of her, you know, there are some where she's holding up a whole 'nother person. Yeah. So...
Em Schulz: Well, yeah. I mean, they're both stacked. Like they're...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And it's sad 'cause they had such a unique partnership, and...
Em Schulz: They really could have been the power couple.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Well, I guess they were for a second.
Christine Schiefer: They were for a minute, and like, you know, they could have really run with that, but instead it just spiraled into chaos. It's too bad. It's really too bad.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Wow. Well, well done, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I hope she's doing okay. I hope the kids and grandkids are doing okay, it's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's... I don't know. Gotta be tough.
Christine Schiefer: I just always... I just always wonder.
Em Schulz: Well, um, what are you up to for the rest of the day?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I guess I'm recording a, an after dark with my friend Em. What are you up to?
Em Schulz: Oh. Nothing. No. [chuckle] Do you have a topic in mind? Or are we doing another show and tell? What are we doing?
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I have a little mini... It's like a show and tell plus an interactive show and tell.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: It's an interactive show and tell. Yeah. So...
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, if you'd like to see us continue our ramblings, you can head over Patreon. You can also buy our book, A Haunted Road Atlas, you could also buy our other book that's coming out next month, A Haunted Road Atlas Next Stop. You can also go onto our website and look up tour tickets, you can also go on our website and submit a listener story for our listeners episodes at the first of every month. And you can also go drink some water, you thirsty little rat.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
