[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: I just hear my nasally drone, I can't stand it. Fuck off.
Em Schulz: Welcome to 400 episodes as well.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think we supposed to use the F-word in the first 10 seconds of the show, but too late.
Em Schulz: Oh. Well, you know we'll we'll talk to uh the higher ups and see what they say, um I spoke with them and they are fine...
Christine Schiefer: The FTC is... That's not the right company. What's the one does that do...
Em Schulz: The FCC.
Christine Schiefer: The FCC is gonna pull our huge... Pull us from the huge game, from the big game, I mean.
Em Schulz: From the big game. Uh it feels at the beginning of like a Disney movie or in some way.
Christine Schiefer: That's the goal, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's, uh, that's what... We were so close to making it big.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's okay. Well, we'll do it again in the sequel, you'll see, they'll all see.
Christine Schiefer: They'll all see.
Em Schulz: Um. Christine, your room looks a little more decorated, I don't, I don't know for all I know it could be like um like clutter is actually working for you. But it looks like you filled it out a little bit, or you did something different.
Christine Schiefer: No I haven't touched it in like two months.
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I have just been just distracted by the stars in your eyes.
Christine Schiefer: I mean there's a box of cables, just a box of cables...
Em Schulz: No, I see the there's... I think I just haven't noticed the plants up until now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that have been there before I even put wall paper up. So those have been there a long time. Probably a year actually.
Em Schulz: Are you sitting somewhere different?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Didn't you used to sit in the corner?
Christine Schiefer: I used to, I sometimes do like half, half, but for the last like several I have been here, I think, unless, unless I'm wrong.
Em Schulz: I have just never paid attention.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks.
Em Schulz: It's new to me, I am having a good time over here.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. Well I guess that's an ad for our YouTube channel, uh if you wanna see how one box of cables has apparently changed the game, um...
Em Schulz: If, if you don't uh, if you don't notice a change in my background in the next couple of weeks I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, yours is just dark mine's clutter, as you said, so uh mine's a little easier to play eye spy with.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That'd be a fun little game, like hide little Easter eggs, actually don't look too closely, everybody, there's... There's probably some... If you zoom in I feel like there's so much just crap back there that like... You don't know what you'll find. It really is like a mysterious eye spy game.
Em Schulz: As I started talking about the aesthetics of your room, you've put on your Mariska Hargitay investigation lamp.
Christine Schiefer: I have because, I don't know. Look, it literally looks like one too.
Em Schulz: It's like where were you the night of the big game, why didn't we make it?
Christine Schiefer: I was on the side line, actually, I got lost, I couldn't find the field. That seems more likely.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Why do you drink right now, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Em I have done it again. I'm back on my bullshit. Um...
Em Schulz: Wait hang on a bit let me, I guess. What did you do? What did you do? Okay, so either you've drank recently, you did something with your little edible gummies, you shopped a little too close to the sun, you didn't sleep when you said you would, and now you're sleeping when you shouldn't. You...
Christine Schiefer: You're four for four right now.
Em Schulz: You got lost for sure recently.
Christine Schiefer: Now you're five for five.
Em Schulz: Dropped your social, dropped your social security card at like an airport, and and then...
Christine Schiefer: It was a credit card, but close.
Em Schulz: Okay. And also you... Oh, I know, I don't know, but this is the most likely that you got a little too curious about like one little piece of wallpaper that was loose and then you tore apart your entire wall and now you're going digging through it, and then you found treasure, and now you're on a quest to find the original owners of the house.
Christine Schiefer: That's been since day one. That's like my never-ending quest, that's like the the quest that kind of supersedes all other quests, so you're not wrong, like I am always trying to find the secrets of this home.
Em Schulz: What did you do?
Christine Schiefer: Um. So I finally was able to cl... Like put my Etsy shop on vacation. So everything's sent out. Um I do wanna apologize to the people who have received blank envelopes with nothing in it, but a note for me that was... There were a couple of people who were like, hey, and of course everyone's so kind about it, but they were like, "Hey, so I just got my my envelope" and I am like, I already know where this is going, apparently I did a batch of them and forgot to actually put the stickers into the envelopes and then I put like thank you notes in. So they were shipped like a $2 envelope with just like a thank you note. So I have...
Em Schulz: So almost condescending of thanks for your purchase.
Christine Schiefer: Literally.
Em Schulz: I actually couldn't get to it. Um. But thanks for the effort.
Christine Schiefer: Here is a stamp on my signature, you can have it for free.
Em Schulz: And how lucky are you a hand-written message from me.
Christine Schiefer: It's so embarrassing. And so I, I like went back and everybody who messaged me, I believe I have fixed their issues, there was... There were a couple of hiccups because I had put like pre-order and I tried to make it very clear, but I get... What I didn't know is that Etsy only lets you like select a couple of weeks as like you're processing time, and so then at the end of those weeks, all of a sudden everyone started getting emails saying your order should be there, and it was from Etsy, and I was like I was like, oh my god, Etsy says it should be here, and I am like, no, I haven't even like started shipping stuff out of... This was a while ago. So anyway, there was a lot of kerfuffle about that, I apologize, but what I will say is that yesterday I was able to donate $3500 to the Palestinian children's relief fund. I am so proud of everybody. I am just... So it was, I started to cry, it was... I just felt so uh thankful. So thank you every...
Em Schulz: 3500 that's huge.
Christine Schiefer: That's huge. I felt so delighted. It was like Rocket Money sent me a thing being like, "Have you been hacked?" And I was like, "No, I haven't thanks a lot, Rocket Money."
Em Schulz: Every time you get an alert like that and it's like 'cause either something really cool just happened or something really bad is about to happen to you.
Christine Schiefer: I know I'm scared to open those emails, 'cause usually it's something... I'm like, "I haven't spent anything" and then I will open it and it'll be like 800 on like some Airbnb thing. And I am like, "Oh yeah, I guess I did. I guess I totally did" and I forgot. Um. But anyway, thank you to everybody who ordered stickers, I am like so pleased and honored that people were into it, and I am going to keep up the shop. I actually am, I made some new stickers while I was on vacation at Sesame Place. Did you see my newest one?
Em Schulz: Oh. Baby on board. That's amazing. Bebe on board.
Christine Schiefer: It's a Moire Rose and I learned to draw... Well, I tried to, anyway, I don't know if it looks like her...
Em Schulz: You drew her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Holy shit where did you learn to do that?
Christine Schiefer: It took me months. Em it took me months. I took classes online.
Em Schulz: That's an amazing. I mean, the power of neuro-divergence is incredible...
Christine Schiefer: Really I fixated so hard core that like it took, this started, I started in February, and what is it fucking August.
Em Schulz: That's amazing. You should be really proud of yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I actually put one on my car, which I have never... Like I haven't put any of them on my car yet, this is the first one that it says bebe on board...
Em Schulz: If you... Can you send one, to to me, I will send one to... Well I will buy it from your Etsy shop, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: I can just... I'll just I'll just send you...
Em Schulz: I've got an in 'cause I am a nepo baby or something.
Christine Schiefer: I'll just send you a blank envelope with my signature.
Em Schulz: I'm a nepo bebe.
Christine Schiefer: You're a nepo bebe. Oh that's a good sticker idea. So I, I made these bebe on board stickers of Moira Rose, um so if anyone wants to go buy those, I'm gonna open a shop back up because now I have smaller ones, they're easier to ship, um and I also made a bunch, you know, those like... I've been really... This is what happens, as you know when I'm supposed to be working on other shit uh my brain is like, "How about we do this instead?"
Christine Schiefer: That's the, that's the thing with ADHD, is you're always... Even if you're being productive, it's being productive by procrastinating from the thing you need to do.
Christine Schiefer: The wrong direction. Yeah it's like...
Em Schulz: You're always, you're always...
Christine Schiefer: Taking a wrong turn.
Em Schulz: Even when you look productive, you're always procrastinating on something.
Christine Schiefer: For sure. Like some times I'll be shopping online for something and it'll take me six hours, I'm like, "well, I had to research the best bath mat." And is Blaise was like "you literally didn't," but okay.
Em Schulz: Blaise is like, "Pay the bills."
Christine Schiefer: Blaise is like um "I've been calling you for three hours." Um. No, so I made those and then you know that stickers that everyone has to say like OBX, like Outer Banks, so I made some of those that say OCD and ADHD instead, so they look like like little travel stickers, and then I also made um... Oh, I made a p-party fowl, it's a little chicken with the birthday hat.
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, if anyone is interested, I'm gonna uh... I think I'm going to do uh... The next month will be proceeds to RAINN, I think is what I've decided. Um the rape and incest network. So if anybody is interested, go check it out, it's at uh the Xtine [0:08:15.1] ____ Files, I think on Etsy, I don't know, it'll be in the show notes, but I'm just, I just wanna say thank you to everybody who ordered stickers, it was like... It's so much fun, it's just like a nice little side hobby and I like can learn to draw and color and anyway.
Em Schulz: Nice. I thought when you said I've done it again, I thought we were gonna say is, "I realized that this is too overwhelming and I had to shut it down, not oh, I'm doing it all over again."
Christine Schiefer: I'm doing it more.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay, well, great.
Christine Schiefer: That would have been the reasonable thing to say, but here I am not saying it.
Em Schulz: Well, I'm very proud of you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I'm just uh really thankful for everybody who who played along and was patient as uh I mailed them blank like empty envelopes with my signature, I'm never gonna get over that, that's like what a, what a like seriously unhinged thing to do. Like if I were like Tana [0:08:57.7] ____ or one of those creators, I feel like I could be like, "What? That's not like, you don't want my signature too bad, you don't get a refund." But no...
Em Schulz: Yeah I totally get it.
Christine Schiefer: I, I was just, I didn't do it on purpose. It was just uh... It was just wrong. Very wrong.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Well, I'm proud of you, I'm sure it's...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: It's going great I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna draw you next, I can't decide what to put on it though...
Em Schulz: Oh God. Well, good luck.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks. I made also a theyby on board. Oh shit, I was supposed to surprise you with that. Nevermind.
Em Schulz: They-theyby on board.
Christine Schiefer: I made a theyby on board sticker too, but uh I'll show you that later 'cause I haven't ordered it yet.
Em Schulz: Precious.
Christine Schiefer: That's for you and your car.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Uh I still have... You know I don't put many things on my car, but the one thing that I have on there is your uh follow me to Waffle House.
Christine Schiefer: Waffle House. I know I love, I love that you did that. That makes me so happy.
Em Schulz: I have um quite a bit of uh... I get quite a bit of comments on that one.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, do people really follow you?
Em Schulz: The police sometimes probably. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This one's trouble, they say.
Em Schulz: So that like the Southerner or whatever. What's going on in that car? Uh. And what do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: Um I got my THC seltzer, I haven't opened yet, but I I'm thinking I'm gonna drink one uh since we are recording a little...
Em Schulz: What flavor as she?
Christine Schiefer: Black current. Oh la la.
Em Schulz: Mm I don't know how I feel about that.
Christine Schiefer: What are, what are you up to Em? How are you feeling?
Em Schulz: Uh. You know I like to think I'm calm. I, I like to pretend that I'm calm, but really, I'm like eating the walls. You know um...
Christine Schiefer: What? Is that a thing?
Em Schulz: Just very uh stressed.
Christine Schiefer: Is that a saying?
Em Schulz: I don't know I just said it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't know, I'm not good at English, so I don't know.
Em Schulz: Um I... Yeah, just, I don't know, and I feel like I'm in chaos and also stuck all at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: Same oh same.
Em Schulz: But it'll pass, it'll pass.
Christine Schiefer: Will it? I hope so.
Em Schulz: Um. Okay, I don't, I don't have any update except that I just feel like I'm in a in a... I feel like I'm in a vortex or something. Um I I'm just drinking uh water, but it does have the squeezee top that's makes things better.
Christine Schiefer: Oh those are good, those are good.
Em Schulz: Um. So... And I brought a second one 'cause I feel like I'm I'm in a chugging kind of mood you know. Yeah, speaking of which, tell my thirsty little rats, I haven't told you recently, but in case you forgot, you need to be drinking your water it is hot. It is summer. It is, I don't know, rat girl summer, rat summer, whatever they're saying. And um you need to be drinking your water because I don't wanna see...
Christine Schiefer: Rat girl summer.
Em Schulz: I don't see any of my little dehydrated rats on the side of the road. You know what I'm saying? So gulp, gulp.
Christine Schiefer: On the side of the r... Did I tell you, I found a dead rat recently. It was horrible.
Em Schulz: See, that was one of our followers, she didn't drink enough water.
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't. It was a dead rat. It was horrible. It was like I almost stepped on it and it was like freshly dead.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: It was in a stairwell too, so it wasn't even like outside outside.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's always worse when uh... It's always the worst when you see them, like already kinda half to deteriorated, you're like ew like now I have to...
Christine Schiefer: This one looked like a live mouse and then we got closer and we were like, "Oh no, he's dead," which was like... I don't know, it was like alarming, so we're like "ah rat" and then we were like, "Oh, it's not moving," but it's so alive looking that it probably just fucking died.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's awful. It's also... There was um... Or on the road when you see like a squirrel who just looks like he's taking a nap in the sun.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Oh no.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ugh. Um reminds of the...
Christine Schiefer: Wanna tell me a story.
Em Schulz: Okay um... So this... Hang on let me get in the zone for a second.
Christine Schiefer: Autozone.
Em Schulz: What's the other one? O'Reillys auto parts.
Christine Schiefer: O, O, O'Reillys wrecker and burger.
Em Schulz: What now?
Christine Schiefer: I'm just singing local ones now.
Em Schulz: Oh I thought you were gonna say, "auto parts" and then I was gonna go ow.
Christine Schiefer: Auto parts.
Em Schulz: Ow.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Perfect, perfect, honestly got it in one take.
Em Schulz: Thank you, thank you. I'm glad we did too. Just in case, um also, yes, to all of you, uh I hear your cries about uh O'Reilly's auto parts and how if you type in 1.21 or whatever, you get a flux capacitor as one of the products they sell. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. I know.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously, Em knows, obviously. It would be wild if you didn't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah it's like... It's, it's one of those things I think I get a DM I think at least at least once a week, at least one a week and every single time I'm like do you think, I don't know this yet.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's nice people are thinking of you, but yeah, they should have more faith that you are good at it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's, that's how it feels. It's like, I'm grateful that you thought of me, I'm grateful you thought of me, but also it's like almost a little condescending that you think I wouldn't know this already, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yes.
Em Schulz: It's such a weird fine balance 'cause I'm like... Thank you. I, I, I do appreciate it. But also I'm like, "You can't possibly think I didn't know." You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and then it's awkward 'cause you're like, "Yeah, duh," but it's like you don't wanna be an asshole, right. So you're like, "I know, thanks." There's no good response. It's like the time Eva told us about a dog, she had heard of...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Called Noodle, and we were like "um like the one with 40 million followers on TikTok?" And she goes, "My friend has this dog" and we were... I don't know, it was in the alumni thing, and I felt so bad 'cause I went... Yeah, I felt like such a bitch after that, I was like... I reacted so strangely because I was like...
Em Schulz: Well, well for con... Yeah. Eva telling us, had no con... Had no awareness that this dog was actually famous and was just saying like, "Oh I I have a friend... " She was saying... She didn't really say, "I have a friend who has this dog," it was phrased like, "Oh, there's this dog named Noodle," and we thought she was talking about the fact that it's a famous dog, but she was just trying to say like, "I have a friend who has this dog named Noodle." So then it got... It got like complicated.
Christine Schiefer: Ray apparently knew the owner or something, it was like... 'cause, 'cause the dog went to Emerson... Well the dog didn't go to Emerson the dog's owner went to Emerson and Eva was like, "Oh, it was at the Emerson newsletter." And we were like, "Well, probably 'cause it has 40 million followers on TikTok." But uh we were like... Oh, Eva said, the dog went to Emerson, I think so, I'm pretty sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah we we all ended up teaching each other something in the in the crossfire.
Christine Schiefer: I felt bad because what do I fucking know? I know nothing I know rat summer, that's as far as my like current knowledge goes, and it's already August, we're already late on that, so anyway, I uh I apologize to Eva for that, and also I apologize to everyone who's getting a response from Em, that's just an eye roll emoji. Like duh.
Em Schulz: It's not an eye roll, there's just, there's only so many times I can heart the same link, you know what I'm saying, I'm just like I know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm shocked that you even I open messages, I don't even open anything I get too overwhelmed.
Em Schulz: I open some. I have to be in a certain mood. And then um then there's some that I don't and I go I just need to break... Anyway, O'Reilly Auto parts. Why were we talking about that? Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: We weren't. We just were singing it.
Em Schulz: Hmm. What was the other one you sang? The...
Christine Schiefer: Wrecker and Burger, the comfort... Okay hold on that was so, so off-key.
Em Schulz: Yeah, make it sound good.
Christine Schiefer: Wrecker and Burger comfort zone. Oh.
Em Schulz: I love that. You hit that. That was nice. We have in Fredericksburg this man, I've never met him, but I've always wanted to shake his hand, his name is Robert B Payne, and he is an HVAC guy, because in the car, I don't know what kind of million dollars he's got for marketing, but my entire childhood this song comes on at least 10,000 times every time I'm in the car. And it's for heat and air, there's just one name, Robert B Payne, and I for my entire life...
Christine Schiefer: Do you know why that makes me so mad it's not even a rhyme, it's a slant rhyme.
Em Schulz: I know, I know. But you know what, Robert B Payne, got his fucking message across. So...
Christine Schiefer: He got his bag. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. He sure did. Anyway, if anyone happens to know Robert B Payne of Fredericksburg, Virginia you shake his hand for me.
Christine Schiefer: Tell him his rhyme fucking sucks.
Em Schulz: Okay, well, yeah, give him like the... Let's do the sandwich thing where you complement...
Christine Schiefer: Make it an open face sandwich where it's just an insult at the end.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Shake his hand and while you're shaking his hand, let him know that his name does not rhyme with the word name.
Christine Schiefer: Perfect.
Em Schulz: And then like just let him react to that however he needs to.
Christine Schiefer: Actually don't even let him just leave.
Em Schulz: Okay, actually how about everyone in Fredericksburg, let's get together and make a billboard for Robert B Payne where we're giving him marketing, but really it's where we just write your name doesn't even rhyme with the name, so what are you doing? That way, everyone gets what they need.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just gonna make a... I'm just gonna make a limerick. There once was a... What was his name?
Em Schulz: Robert B Payne.
Christine Schiefer: There once was a Robert B Payne, who thought his name rhymed with...
Em Schulz: Name.
Christine Schiefer: A name. [chuckle] There once was a Robert D Payne...
Em Schulz: Would B Payne.
Christine Schiefer: There was a Robert B Payne who gave my ass a pain... Well, that doesn't sound right don't say that.
Em Schulz: Oh hello.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Who was a pain in the ass. There once was a Robert B Payne, who thought he was rhyming his name, but instead of a rhyme, it was slant the whole time, and now my brain...
Em Schulz: I'm in a lot of pain, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up let me finish, you always cut off my 6imerick at the end, you're the bain of my existence, you're the pain of my existence.
Em Schulz: I feel like you could say Robert B Payne, no your your's is better.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so mad that you cut off my limerick, nobody even heard the ending. It was good guys.
Em Schulz: I'll, I'll email Robert though.
Christine Schiefer: Just had to have the last word.
Em Schulz: I'm about to have a lot more words 'cause I, I do have a story for you and I think you're gonna like it a lot. This is the Irma Hotel.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay, it sounds like a trendy boutique hotel nowadays, like, like the Lyle or like the Emma, you know they all have these fancy names.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I, I feel like only certain names can do that though, I feel like the Christine makes sense. I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that's also...
Em Schulz: Like Eva hotel, Eva, Eva hotel totally works. And Eva boutique. Em?
Christine Schiefer: But I know a Emma hotel.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah, I don't think I'm a hotel named after me, maybe like a bench...
Christine Schiefer: Schulz hotel.
Em Schulz: A Schulz hotel maybe. Um. Okay, this is uh an old west story, so I'm gonna easily get really excited.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." I am.
Em Schulz: Okay. This is... Uh. It starts in 1895, and before we get into it, I need to tell you that about a half of this story is me just doing deep dives on the Old West, so you're gonna have to really commit to...
Christine Schiefer: Finally.
Em Schulz: The joy because uh... I really don't talk about the Irma hotel all that much. Um. I really just talk about people. So...
Christine Schiefer: Irma who, tell me about the wild west.
Em Schulz: So in 1895, Cody, Wyoming is founded which is where Irma Hotel is. Cody, Wyoming is founded by William F. Cody, aka Buffalo Bill.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, hell yeah.
Em Schulz: And he's the one who built the Irma Hotel. So he's the CEO of Irma.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure that's what he was called. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And um... So this is now where I go into a deep div about Buffalo Bill. And by deep dive, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: I was like how deep?
Em Schulz: Deep enough that it is definitely a section of the story, um but not deep enough to anyone who's a true Buffalo Bill fanatic is gonna be impressed.
Christine Schiefer: But anyone who doesn't know about Buffalo Bill is gonna have a good time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah don't, don't just show your step-dads, 'cause I'm sure there's plenty of Nova PBS specials that have covered this extensively.
Em Schulz: Yeah, a a reminder that whenever I do a 101 or a deep dive, this is um... I've never once claimed to be like working for the state.
Christine Schiefer: It's a temporary deep dive we're just uh... Except for that time, you claimed to be working for the Smithsonian, but that was different.
Em Schulz: I... When I say deep dive, I mean this is as far as my hyper-fixation allowed me to go, and you can either continue the ride yourself with further investigation away from the podcast or you can really just enjoy the um specific things that I decided were very interesting. And I promise that's gonna be a good time.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. Now sit down, shut up and listen.
Em Schulz: Sit down, shut up. You're gonna love it. I promise.
Christine Schiefer: Gonna love it.
Em Schulz: And if you have any more questions, I'm sure you have an uncle somewhere. Um so okay...
Christine Schiefer: Sure you probably do and you probably don't wanna ask him 'cause he's gonna never stop talking.
Christine Schiefer: I guess is what I'll say these, these are the log lines, these are like the... These are the beats that will get you interested in Buffalo Bill for you to do your own investigation.
Christine Schiefer: It's like supplement to a Nova special. Okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You... Yes. Okay, do you know anything about Buffalo Bill, by the way, 'cause I feel like I'm about to teach the teacher.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, 'cause um I haven't covered Buffalo Bill. Have I, or did I? No, I covered uh what's his face? Oh, Christine, come on. Uh. Not Buffalo Bill, the other one. Kid, Billy the Kid. Uh I covered Billy the Kid, so I feel like um...
Em Schulz: You did. That was a good one.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I learned like, like peripherally about Buffalo Bill during that research, but I really don't know much.
Em Schulz: So I thought this was as far as you were gonna go. He is a trapper frontiersman, and that's as far as I was willing to go, and then I thought, you know what, someone's gonna have something to say that I am just blowing past Buffalo Bill and he's like the main character anyway, so he deserves a little screen time.
Christine Schiefer: Get's a little, a little context.
Christine Schiefer: So then I ended up deep diving and... Wow, um obsessed with his story. Uh not... I don't know if I'm obsessed with him as a person, but I am... Like I would like a life as interesting as his. Let's put it that way.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So he's a trapper. That's how he starts out. Then he gets involved in the gold rush, okay he is a child. Let's be clear.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Then by 14, he retires his time at in the gold rush apparently.
Christine Schiefer: He is a CEO now and he's retired. [laughter]
Em Schulz: He's the CEO of gold. Um. It's giving Hamilton where it's like our founding fathers like signed, like they made a country at 18 years old. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like also five feet tall. And everyone's like, oh.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We thought you were so much taller and older. Nope.
Em Schulz: My favorite part has been like, people like, I don't know, like my father. And they're like, "oh yeah, well, our founding fathers blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "would you listen to a single thing an 18-year-old had to say to you right now" if they...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like a, if your teenager was like, "look at what I did," I'd be like, "please sit down."
Em Schulz: If an 18-year-old said, "these are the rules that you must follow and, or this is, this is how you have to live for the rest of your life." Would you fucking listen for a second? No. Okay. Umm, anyway, so he's a trapper gets involved in the gold rush. I really don't know how involved he is in the gold rush. I didn't even have the time to get into that, but fun fact, he, I think that's how he gets to California.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably how he got all that money.
Em Schulz: Well, he, no, no, he, you'll see.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He gets, let's put it this way. He's a real mover and shaker. He's got, uh, a little toe dipped in everything, so.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. All right.
Em Schulz: When he is, uh, a part of the gold rush, this is at the same time, this is around 1860 when California, maybe because the gold rush, I don't know what the hell was going on. It was a, it was a busy era, the the 1800s.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 1849 dude. '49ers.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah. And so I, I'm assuming the gold rush is somehow involved in this, but about 10 years later is 1860, which is when California decides that they need a newer, hotter, fresher rat summer version of the mail system. They're like, "things are just moving too fucking slow."
Christine Schiefer: Like postal mail, like mail mail?
Em Schulz: Postal mail.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: They're like, "we need a new mail route. We need a new way of getting things there that's faster than what we've currently been doing. Aha. Let's create the Pony Express."
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: And I always heard of the phrase Pony Express, only until yesterday did I realize it's literally express by pony where people are riding ponies.
Christine Schiefer: What did you think it was?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I had, I just never, and I didn't know anything about it. I just heard the phrase and I knew it had something to do with the mail.
Christine Schiefer: I assumed it was ponies.
Em Schulz: I didn't know if was like...
Christine Schiefer: I thought you were about to tell me I had no idea until now that there were no ponies involved. And I was gonna be like, man.
Em Schulz: No, I really, I I just heard Pony Express and I just thought like, oh, that's a type of mail. I don't know. Like I, I knew it was like a historical thing, but I, I never thought about it. I never spent time looking into it. I just heard Pony Express and thought it was like ph... A phrasing or something. Never occurred to me a horse was involved. Umm, so here I am at 32, admitting that out loud. So before you think I'm stupid, I know I'm here. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know that anybody knows that. I just was really bummed. 'cause I thought you were gonna tell me there were no ponies. So now I'm excited that there are, that, that I was right about that.
Em Schulz: No, actually, now I'm an expert on ponies. It took a a day and now I know what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: So 1860 California, they create the Pony Express. Basically what they decide to do is that they create these post stations every 10 to 15 miles. It's essentially U-Haul, but ponies.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And they, every 10 to 15 miles is what one horse is allowed to do to in, in your traveling.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: And you, you're a mailman on a horse, you get 10 to 15 miles and then the horse may get tired, so you have to switch out the horse. So at every post you get a new horse.
Christine Schiefer: I see. You're like switching them out. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes. And this, I don't remember how far it extended, but it was to Montana, Missouri. It was an M State in the middle, uh. It was an M State, but that's as far as the Pony Express would go. And so at your longest trek, if you were starting from one end to the other, it would take 75 horses to get you.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: To get your mail across. And I don't know if that was, uh, apparently I, I saw two different sources. I'm, I'm guessing both are kind of true. I really, I, I should have looked up a third one, but either you're in, you're a postmaster for that 10 to 15 miles and your your whole job is to get it to this place. And then someone takes a new horse and goes this way.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Some people would literally just take one, uh, take the whole route themselves. They would hop from horse to horse and get you there. So. Or get your mail there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: 'Cause you know how now it's like, oh, my mail gets to this packaging center, then this packaging that, and, and they're all different people who get my mail to me.
Christine Schiefer: Right. So this would be some people.
Em Schulz: Sometimes people would just take the entire, the entire trail themselves.
Christine Schiefer: That's quite a journey.
Em Schulz: To get your mail to them.
Christine Schiefer: All right.
Em Schulz: Well, that happened in Bill Cody, Buffalo Bill's situation, because he becomes a rider for the Pony Express. And one of the first times that he is given some sort of specific notoriety as a frontiersman, and he like really makes, his name is a day where he is working for the Pony Express and his relay stations have been burned down.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: By indigenous people apparently. I don't know the actual history to this, but that is the story that's being told. Umm, he, they all get burned down and he had to keep moving without switching horses, without someone else maybe tag teaming in and, and taking the rest of the mail with them.
Christine Schiefer: He was like, I, nope it's just my pony. We have nothing to do with the mail. Don't mind me. I'm just passing through.
Em Schulz: Just passing through. Umm, so yeah, for all I know, he was supposed to just stop there and then someone else was gonna grab the mail and keep it moving.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But it was up to him because all the stations had burned down. So he was like, I gotta get this mail. How important was that mail? Like what did he think was in there?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, he probably wanted to get out of there.
Em Schulz: That's fair. So the thing that makes him like so quick to fame in this era of his life is because there was nobody else, and there were no other horses. He rode 330 miles in under 22 hours. So in less than a day.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Oh, this is one of the things that made him like known as a frontiersman. So I did the math, he was moving 15 miles an hour the entire time I did more math and the average horse can move 30 miles an hour. So there, there the h the horse was going about half its speed.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, but let me ask this 'cause I...
Em Schulz: So it's not like they were galloping the whole way.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like this is a question that might be very dumb on my part, but are all ponies horses, but not all horses are ponies? Like what, how do you know a pony is different from a horse? Are they different?
Em Schulz: I, my, I don't know how true this is.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I feel like a pony would be slower than a horse, but I could be wrong. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I also kind of think that, umm, maybe the Pony Express is just a cute way of saying horses are involved.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay. You did say you were gonna be today's expert on ponies.
Em Schulz: I know what I said.
Christine Schiefer: So I feel like you should at least know if it's a different animal than a horse. But I'll Google it is a pony a horse.
Em Schulz: Were...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, pony is a small breed of horse. Okay. So it's a type of horse. Interesting.
Em Schulz: Let's see. The pro, the Pony Express used regular horses, not ponies. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: See, okay. So that's silly that they would even call it that, but whatever.
Em Schulz: I don't know. If I had like a dog, a dog company, I would use the word puppy, but mean dogs.
Christine Schiefer: A Puppy Express.
Em Schulz: Oh God. If there was a puppy express, uh, that to me means someone's mailing me a puppy dog. And I would like to sign up on that, on that list right now.
Christine Schiefer: Right. But don't put it in the mail. That seems like a bad idea.
Em Schulz: Oh, it's like a, like the mail, but with holes in the box. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Nope.
Em Schulz: Not really, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Don't do that.
Em Schulz: I feel like if there's something called the Puppy Express, they're different than the re the regular mail and they know what they're doing. They've got, it's just a...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh. I thought it was dogs...
Em Schulz: A truck of crates.
Christine Schiefer: Delivering your mail, which I was very excited about. But, umm, you know.
Em Schulz: If you happen to have one of those dogs, if you have lucked out and you're one of God's favorites and you have a dog who brings you the newspaper every morning, you are part of the Puppy Express.
Christine Schiefer: You are. And you have to be, your dog is in a union, so you do have to pay the dog.
Em Schulz: The cheese tax.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Of course.
Em Schulz: So, okay. He's part of the Pony Express. He ends up doing this big long run also like claps to the like fucking ponies or horses who did all 330 miles without a break.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what the fuck. That's not fair. They're not supposed to be doing that.
Em Schulz: And I guarantee you they just got like an extra carrot for dinner and that was it.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, God.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that's how he makes his like first big, you know, splash. Then at 21, he works for the Kansas Pacific Railroad, where his whole job is to be a buffalo hunter, so that way he can feed the construction crews of the railroad.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It's one of those jobs that you don't even think about the company where like it branches off and there's so many other people involved.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, so he was essentially the person providing food for the crews.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. 'cause yeah, you're right. Somebody had to feed them. That's a good point.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So Cody in 18 months, sorry to all the animal lovers out there, but he killed over almost 6,600 buffalo in 18 months. But that's apparently how many people he needed to feed. And because of this stat, I'm guessing he killed more than any other Buffalo hunter in the game. And that's why he became known as Buffalo Bill.
Christine Schiefer: Makes perfect sense.
Em Schulz: Later he ends up working for the government as a rider between different forts, and then he does some other, like, incredibly long distance horse run apparently. Umm, he's a guide for important people traveling through the west. During this time is when he becomes really good friends with Theodore Roosevelt. He also serves as a chief scout for the Fifth Cavalry. He is appointed, uh, or he's elected to the Nebraska State Senate. He's awarded a medal of honor at one point. He becomes a colonel in the National Guard, and he's all about that Wild West Life at the same time. So he, at this point, he's so well known that people literally are writing books about him, or even if they're not real.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: I think they're writing like fake stories. And he's the main character, like original fan fiction.
Christine Schiefer: He's almost like... Yeah, he's like cr... He's like creating a name for himself. That's interesting.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so like that's, he finds out that other people are profiting off of like stories or fake stories about him. Probably both. He finds out that one of the books about him turns into a play that's out in New York City.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: He goes, he goes to New York City, I'm imagining on his like very fast pony and he gets there in a day.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He gets to New York, he goes to the play, they find out that Buffalo Bill is literally in the audience. And so he stands up and gets an a standing ovation for attending and then the manager...
Christine Schiefer: They should just always have a guy in the audience and be like, "Buffalo Bill's here tonight."
Em Schulz: It'd be funny if they had like...
Christine Schiefer: Who... Nobody knows what he looks like. There's not fucking like social media, like just have somebody stand up.
Em Schulz: Truly. I wonder there had to be somebody who faked it after that.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: For sure. Well, because of the, you know, the, the rave reviews from the audience members. And the entire cast that Buffalo Bill actually came to see the show, the manager, or like one of the stage managers said like, "would you ever want to actually come back to New York City and play yourself in the play about you?"
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And he goes, ding, ding, ding. And he smells more money. And he goes a runnin'.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: So this begins his entertainment career.
Christine Schiefer: I... See, I didn't know any of this.
Em Schulz: He was apparently a natural on stage and, but that's also, apparently he was like always kinda like schmoozy and charismatic and he knew what the people wanted.
Christine Schiefer: Well he was friends with the Roosevelts already.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. And uh, and plus I imagine especially at that time when like information is so limited compared to today, he must just have looked like such a crazy other person. Like in New York City and there's a literal cowboy on stage.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Telling you about the Wild West and he's acting in his own show.
Christine Schiefer: And nobody's really been there and nobody knows much about it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so, and because he'd already gotten so much notoriety from other people when he was on stage, and because he is like a cowboy and he is like, "I'm fucking Buffalo Bill, I can do what I want. It's a show about me." He would just ad-lib his own lines, but he would name drop celebrities that he's friends with and shit. Like, just to, so people were like desperate to keep seeing the show.
Christine Schiefer: They're like eating it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, and so it becomes a thing where he has almost a double life where in the summer he's in the Wild West and he is like being a, a like a frontiersman, a real.
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: And then in New York, in the, he'd be in New York in the winter on tour. So.
Christine Schiefer: What? This is wild. Get it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. He, huh, yes. It's very wild. He continues to act in plays starring himself, including, including plays that are now based on newer adventures of him. So now that they know he's acting, they're writing new plays for him to be in based on the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for God's sake.
Em Schulz: Based on the updated things he's been doing.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So, umm, like there was, uh, oh, he was friends with General Custer. And then when his, when General Custer died, uh, uh, this is alleged, nobody knows how true this is, but, umm, he heard that General Custer died, uh, from indigenous people. He apparently avenged General Custer by then killing a famous native warrior.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And then someone wrote a play about that, and then he starred in it like six months later.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for God's sake.
Em Schulz: So it's very topical. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: He's almost like writing his own adventures or like creating his own adventures. That will be.
Em Schulz: That's kind of what I wonder what I'm wondering because...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I, I don't know how much of that story is true. Apparently nobody knows for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: There's different camps on that. Umm, but he could just say whatever he wanted and just hope that they'd write a play about it. Probably.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so the next summer he leans more into his cowboy lifestyle when he's not on tour. And this gives him a new idea to merge his cowboy life with his stage life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And this results in him creating Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show.
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: And it was essentially the blueprint for future rodeos because he spent the next several years touring the country with trick riders and sharp shooters. And he would have other famous, uh, people in that lifestyle out on the road with him. He had Annie Oakley out there.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And it was so successful that he took the show to the UK for years and he ended up building out a team 'cause it's another thing where you like, don't think about all the people branched out at the end that make something possible.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: He had a team of 600 people he was touring with.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: And hundreds of animals he had...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: There was, I didn't write it down, but there was some newspaper article.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine that God forsaken boat ride to England with all those people and animals. Oh my Lord. I would die.
Em Schulz: Uh, apparently his team was feeding like 640 people on the, on the road or something. The...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: And during his tour, his UK tour, he even performed for the royal family. And I guess because they were the royal family, he was like, come on down and be a part of the show. And he in the show drove a stage coach, which at one time all held Buffalo Bill, the Prince of Wales, the King of Belgium, the King of Saxony, the King of Denmark, and the King of Greece all at once. They were just all in a car together hanging out.
Christine Schiefer: Like a clown car for clowns.
Em Schulz: Like a clown car.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: Like a clown car. And on another future European tour, he even performed for the Pope at the Vatican. After that Buffalo Bill brings the show to the Chicago World Fair. He partners with Bailey of Barnum and Bailey Circus.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And, uh, eventually he is quote, "the most well-known American in the world".
Christine Schiefer: That is Bananagrams. I had no idea about any of this.
Em Schulz: So, uh, apparently when he was in the West, when he was, whenever he was staying in the West, he really loved the town that would become Cody, Wyoming after him.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And he loved the area so much that he even made like development deals and like investment deals, uh, with people who were trying to grow the area. And he would ta... He made kind of a, I'm assuming this was just like a promise and not like an official contract deal, but he said, "wherever I go when I'm on tour, I'm gonna talk about how great this place is. And hopefully it brings people here and builds revenue. And then the town will really grow."
Christine Schiefer: Smart.
Em Schulz: So while he was on tour, all he did it was basically like his HelloFresh. He would just like, be like, "oh, and by the way, check out Cody, Wyoming." And he, and then it apparently worked and so trusting that the tourism would continue, he was like, "I'm gonna profit on this too, and I'm going to help build one of the first hotels here."
Christine Schiefer: Ah.
Em Schulz: And people will come to a town which is now named after me.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And people can, can come hang out and see how I live in the Wild in the Wild West.
Christine Schiefer: And stay at your hotel. I mean that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And in the town that you hang out in in when you're not on tour and live like you, you know, amongst the stars.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Amongst the stars. They're really real.
Em Schulz: So that's my deep dive of Buffalo Bill. And, uh, because he's trusting in the tourism and he builds his hotel, he had several children, I think he had multiple daughters, but at this point, a bunch of them had already passed away. He only had one daughter still living. Her name was Irma. And so in 1902, he built the Irma Hotel in Cody, Wyoming.
Christine Schiefer: That's cute.
Em Schulz: So, uh, he spent $80,000 on the hotel, which today would be 3 million.
Christine Schiefer: Holy. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh. And he afforded it with the money he made from his Wild West shows and, you know, all of his little hands in, in pots. So it was called by some the Grand Old Lady of Cody, the hotel, the Grand Old Lady.
Christine Schiefer: That's a weird thing to say.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I wonder if back then it was just the grand lady and now it's the grand old lady. And it immediately became like a social center of the town probably because the town itself was still being built up. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The town doesn't even exist before now. So yeah.
Em Schulz: So I think he turned the hotels into basically just like a marketplace for everybody.
Christine Schiefer: The epicenter. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Epicenter. That's a great word. Umm, many who came to Cody were either Buffalo Bill fanatics, they were summer tourists who wanted to check out Yellowstone National Park. They were big game hunters or they were businessmen in mining and ranching. So.
Christine Schiefer: Think about like, if that started now, it would be like a Great Wolf Lodge or something. And people would be like...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: "Oh, I wanna go to like this celebrity." Like, I don't know, I don't know why I'm throwing all these influencers. Like I know anything. Like I said Tana [0:41:13.8] ____ earlier, I'm like, I don't know anything about her. I just was trying.
Em Schulz: I was impressed by that. I, I let it slide. I wasn't gonna say anything, but I was impressed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I, I... Well I just, I feel like, and then I like slandered her. I was not trying to do that. I was just saying if I were some like big name I could send out my signature, but I'm not at that level is what I was trying to say.
Em Schulz: I see.
Christine Schiefer: But imagine if like Logan Paul started the Paul Hotel and everybody else was like eye roll, like, but then in 200 years someone's covering it. Like "And Logan Paul was an entrepreneur and businessman and he had a line of drinks called Prime Energy and he opened this hotel."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: "And it became a sensation." And like now we're all like, "how tacky," you know.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: But in 200 years it'll be like "Wow. A piece of history."
Em Schulz: You know? I'm sure someone back then was like, "this guy's running a fucking hotel."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like someone, you like hear your neighbors are summering in Cody, Wyoming, and you're like, "Ugh, God. Like they're such followers," you know.
Em Schulz: They're like, they're like "I Cody Wyoming. I grew up with the actual Cody and he wasn't all that," you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. For real. I know. It's like big whoop this guy. I feel like he's like a celebrity of his day. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Although I have heard from, well the internet, I've heard from people. No I haven't.
Christine Schiefer: You've heard.
Em Schulz: I've heard from the internet. Umm, and these, keep in mind, these are people who are incredibly biased and really like him. But they all said that he is apparently such a nice person where like even his own manager when he was doing the Wild West Show would get so mad at him because he would stop the show to help people, or he would give the proceeds to certain areas, like.
Christine Schiefer: Help people that he ran over with his big car of clowns.
Em Schulz: Maybe, with his like 80 buffalo that followed him. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but it sounded like he was an inconvenient person to be representing because he would go out of his way for other people. Although I, I don't know what that means. I'm sure historically there are many sides to Buffalo Bill.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I heard about Logan Paul also.
Em Schulz: All right, maybe I'm wrong. Umm, well so he ended up...
Christine Schiefer: [0:43:02.3] ____ a joke, but nevermind it didn't land.
Em Schulz: I I got it. But joke landed for sure. Uh, he ended up staying here at the hotel whenever he was in town because he would, whenever he wasn't on tour, basically. So he built it almost for himself as like an apartment when he was in town.
Christine Schiefer: Nice.
Em Schulz: And he had two suites and an office that were reserved for him, I think year round. You couldn't go in unless you were him. And he even held tryouts for his Wild West shows near the hotel.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: So people could also come in and stay there while auditioning for him.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: It was actually a really smart business move. Umm, fun fact, the bar that is still in this hotel, the hotel still exists and the bar is made of Cherry and it is a gift from Queen Victoria when he was on his UK tour.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: And, uh, the dining room was originally the hotel's saloon. Love that there used to be a saloon. And here's my favorite fun fact, which I think you'll get a real kick out of, is that there's apparently a buffalo head in like the lobby or something that it was, it was like a carving, like a statue. I guess it was hand carved by a man who had never seen a buffalo.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up. Shut the fuck up. That's amazing.
Em Schulz: So you go in there and you kinda go, huh? Like, what is that?
Christine Schiefer: Like it says something weird about this buffalo.
Em Schulz: Apparently it kind of looks like a sheep, umm, but it does...
Christine Schiefer: I guess it does have that like, furry, somebody could be confused by that...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like a little furry collar.
Em Schulz: But I love, like, I wanna know how, so the other parts of the story is apparently he like carried it like across the ocean. He like wouldn't let go of it. He held onto it until he could finally mount it in this building. But like, I like what's the story? Like how did, who saw that? And like, did you feel bad for the guy.
Christine Schiefer: Who... Did you commission the guy? Yeah. Was it like...
Em Schulz: Like did you already pay for it? Yeah or like.
Christine Schiefer: Did he like, was he like Leonardo da Vinci? Like you just swung into him while you were at the Vatican? Like.
Em Schulz: Like what was your story? What was their meet cute. And why was it so significant that no matter how ugly this thing was, you said, "thank you, I'm gonna hang it up into the fucking lobby."
Christine Schiefer: Or is that why you loved, like how I get attached to things that are missing an eye or something, you know what I mean? Like, is that what it was?
Em Schulz: Or imagine if Buffalo Bill really thought that this guy was going to carve him a real fucking buffalo head and then he saw it and he went, "thanks," you know, like.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks so much. And then people kept trying to do something with it. And he's like, "umm, no, I think I'll just hang on to it for now and not display it."
Em Schulz: It was, uh, yeah, I don't know the story there, but apparently the man had never seen a fucking buffalo, which I love that. I mean proof that like how powerful the internet is and how like unlimited our resources are now you're an artist literally doing, doing a piece on buffalo.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And you just get to fucking guess what that looks like.
Christine Schiefer: No. And like we, we, I feel like we take it for granted that like, we've seen a buffalo 'cause like in what other universe would we see a buffalo if we were living in the 18 whatever in a big city.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: When would you ever see a fucking buffalo? You know.
Em Schulz: And you're just like, I just gotta hope that I'm right. Like, what do other people say? Just kind pull it...
Christine Schiefer: I guess he just kind of put it...
Em Schulz: The group think together.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or like on a drawing from someone else's drawing. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It just seems like there's no good way to do it.
Em Schulz: It's like an uncanny valley buffalo.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I would love to see that.
Em Schulz: So in 1913, which the place only opened in 1902, so this wasn't very long after it was open Buffalo Bill, uh, he signed the hotel over to his ex-wife. I think there was like some sort of divorce settlement situation going on.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then four years later he died. The hotel was foreclosed on, but then it was sold on an auction to someone who sold it back to Buffalo Bill's ex-wife. So she could live there until she died.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's nice.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, then new owners took it over until the '60s. And then by the '70s, uh, new owners made sure that it was added to the National Register of Historic Places. And any restorations or renovations that they've done, they've tried to keep it within preservation guidelines. And so it may look antique or it may be modern, but it looks antique that way.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: It still looks as it did.
Christine Schiefer: My dream, my dream aesthetic.
Em Schulz: Your dream aesthetic is modern antiques.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um. And today the hotel is still a hotel. It's also a restaurant in the dining room and it offers weird experiences. It's got a Mother's Day horse auction every summer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Uh, and or every spring. And they also have, I, a lot of sources said this was nightly as in year round, 365 days a year. The Wild Bunch Gunfighters Wild West Show where...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: Right outside where he used to audition people for the Wild West Show. You can now see a reenactment of a gun slinger fight.
Christine Schiefer: Stop it.
Em Schulz: Although a lot of people did not promote that well, because there were some sites I was looking at where they said like, you can watch a gunfight for free. And I was like, uh, I could probably do that in a lot of places.
Christine Schiefer: Umm I could also do that. Yeah, I've been there, done that. Thanks a lot.
Em Schulz: Umm, but they were just framing it weird. And I was like, what the fuck is this show? And then I had to find, I think it was like, it's like a cowboy reenactment situation.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm, so in the Irma Hotel, there's four main ghosts that people experience. One is Buffalo Bill himself. People say that they see him wandering the halls. He's standing on a balcony. A lot of times, he'll be checking on the staff, like people will sense him around when they're working by themselves. Umm, people will hear knocking on the walls, footsteps in the hallways near his old room, and staff will see him, uh, drinking at the bar.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Love that.
Em Schulz: I would like to know what his drink was and I hope there's like a discount or a special for that.
Christine Schiefer: It's gotta be whiskey or something.
Em Schulz: Right. Just like warm...
Christine Schiefer: Feel like there was always whiskey back then.
Em Schulz: Just a bunch of, uh, uh just, it's like a boring drink. It's... No, no flair.
Christine Schiefer: Probably not.
Em Schulz: But then, but then part of me is like, I wish they would make a fun flair drink for him.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure they do. Right? You don't think so?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I'd like to think it's like one of those fun drinks that has like sparks. Like you sprinkle something and then it like flames, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe.
Em Schulz: I don't think they do, but I'd like it to be fun. That's something dazzly. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I'd like it to taste good. But you and I have different priorities.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Have you, have you never had a drink that looked cool and tasted good? Is it always...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. I did, but I just know you don't drink alcohol. So I'm like, for me, I'm like, I just want the alcohol that tastes the best. You want the fun showy one. Maybe we can do both.
Em Schulz: I feel like his personality was showing. He had a whole like big...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He was a showman. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like there should be something at least come with a sparkler.
Christine Schiefer: That would probably blow his fucking mind. But yeah.
Em Schulz: A sparkler would would absolutely blow his mind.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: If, if he could have incorporated pyrotechnics into that.
Christine Schiefer: Pyrotechnics. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like as, as a cowboy who probably didn't experience a lot of that. Imagine if that man saw what fireworks can do today.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously. Wow.
Em Schulz: He, his brain would melt. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I think so.
Em Schulz: So yeah, staff see him walking around. They see him drinking at the bar. People also hear his spurs as if he's moving past them in empty rooms.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Cool.
Em Schulz: And if you stay in his room, but you look like his ex-wife, apparently he will knock drinks outta your hand.
Christine Schiefer: What? What does his ex-wife look like?
Em Schulz: Yeah. See, that's another thing that they should warn you about, but that's the fun mystery of the internet. No one will tell me what his wife looked like.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if he, if he also had a portrait done of her by someone who'd never seen her before. And it also kind of looks like a sheep.
Em Schulz: I wonder if someone just carved her head and she looks like, I don't know, a dog.
Christine Schiefer: A sheep.
Em Schulz: A sheep. Umm, yeah. So, uh, apparently women who have gone into his room that look like his ex-wife, uh, they feel like someone touching their arm, like smacking their arm. Umm, they've felt their drinks get knocked outta their hands. Things have happened and they only get stopped once, like their husband, yuck, tells the ghost to like respect their wife while they're staying in the room and that they'll be gone shortly and then all of a sudden the activity will stop.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: Some staff have even seen him in the reflections of mirrors in the dining room.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Which he really seems to like the dining room. That's also where the bar is. Remember where the saloon was...
Christine Schiefer: That was the saloon, right? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So a lot of experiences happen there. He's also apparently known to knock on the door in the morning, knock on your door, as if he is doing the old school version of like a wake up call before there were...
Christine Schiefer: Oh like...
Em Schulz: Alarm clocks.
Christine Schiefer: Doing his round, morning rounds, like everybody up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So it sounds like he was, he's residually still doing wake up calls for people.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: In room 16, this is another ghost. People say that his daughter Irma haunts this room.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: Umm. This was actually her old room in the hotel.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And the room is named after her. Now, it's called the Irma suite, I think. And she, I think, died in this room. She definitely died in the hotel, but I'm thinking it's in this room.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know if she was older or was she...
Em Schulz: No, she was 35.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: It was during the flu epidemic. And then days later, her husband, who fun fact was the hotel manager at the time also died there of the flu epidemic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: I think it was, uh, pneumonia that they got from the flu, so...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay.
Em Schulz: People in this room sense a very warm, friendly presence. Sometimes they see her rocking in her rocking chair. Uh, that's kind of it. People just say that they, they know she's around, but they don't really feel anything bad and they just kind of sense someone watching them, so...
Christine Schiefer: I can get down with that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Of the ghosts...
Christine Schiefer: Of all of them.
Em Schulz: Give me the one who...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She just wants her rocking chair and I'm not trying to mess with that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No, I'm not gonna sit in that thing.
Em Schulz: I do wonder, is the rocking chair in the room or is she appearing with the rocking chair?
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. I was gonna say it's a hotel's fault for putting a rocking chair in there, but you're right. It could be a ghostly rocking chair.
Em Schulz: It's like she's going to the function and bringing her own lawn chair 'cause she just doesn't trust what's going on there.
Christine Schiefer: BYORC.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: BYORC.
Em Schulz: You get it.
Christine Schiefer: That's what BYORC stands for.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Good. I always, always kind of wondered.
Christine Schiefer: Bring your own rocking chair.
Em Schulz: So, uh, another spirit here is said to be more intimidating. This is probably the darker spirit in this hotel. Apparently, it likes to make people have that sense of like doom or like, it's an ominous kind of feeling. It's never hurt anybody, but it freaks people out. He's said to harass, uh, he was said to harass people in life. So one source...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so we know who it is.
Em Schulz: You know, there was no name.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: This is, this is one of those things where I'm like, I think just the game of telephone is bastardized whatever's going on. Because I also don't know if this is like, just part of like a scary story.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: But they say that this, this entity when alive would harass people and was probably an old outlaw because he was known for hanging people out of the window by belts. But they don't have his name.
Christine Schiefer: Hanging people like by their neck. Like hanging them, hanging them?
Em Schulz: I don't know. For all I know, it's like just holding them over the like to like threaten them and like holding them...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. I thought...
Em Schulz: By their belt. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: It could also mean hanging them by their belt, but who knows.
Em Schulz: It could.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like a difference you would wanna clarify people, but I guess not.
Em Schulz: It's all bad and vague. Just like used to hang people over the window by their belt.
Christine Schiefer: There's nothing good. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, apparently one team, one investigative team came in and they tried to talk to this spirit and asked if all this was true. And they apparently got a bunch of like, confirmation responses to that. But I mean, it's still like, why is no one asking what this guy's name is? So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, or if they did, I certainly didn't see it. I did, I was looking around for quite some time, didn't see it. So the final ghost here is the most famous one, and it's in the most haunted room of the hotel, which is room 35. So room 35 is the most haunted room. There is a soldier that's said to be seen here and he likes to prank people that are sitting there.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: He has appeared to people in this room only from the waist down. So you just see a pair of legs walking around. Pair of gams.
Christine Schiefer: I hope he's wearing pants.
Em Schulz: He is wearing pants. And people can tell that he's a soldier because of the pants and his sword.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. His sword. Wink.
Em Schulz: Wink. Yeah. What's scarier is that it's just like a pair of moving... It's just a moving sword...
Christine Schiefer: It's just a sword flying through the air. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: One guy staying here heard a crash in his room and he saw a sign had fallen off the wall. So when he hung it back up, it then like flew 20 feet across the room. Umm, faucets will turn on and off by themselves. Toilets will flush on their own. Items will move or rearrange themselves. People have woken up to their clothes in a pyramid at the foot of their bed.
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: And people will wake up to something cold touching them.
Christine Schiefer: What? Stop. It's the sword.
Em Schulz: One time, uh, someone saw the soldier actually walking around the room and then leaving the room through the closed door. So walked right through the closed door.
Christine Schiefer: And it's always just the pants.
Em Schulz: Always just the pants apparently.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Umm, throughout the hotel, this is just general ghosts. Now people claim that their items, uh, disappear and reappear, electronics die or temporarily die. And then as soon as like you try to recharge them, they're at full battery. People hear voices. Uh, people have also said that they see people who aren't there in the dining room. So it looks more full than it is.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Shining.
Em Schulz: Staff have actually said that they've seen guests sitting at the booth getting like, ready to order, and then when they approach the table, they vanish. The people vanish in front of them.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. That's 'cause you and I went and there was not a tasty drink that had a firecracker in it and we said, "fuck this... "
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying...
Christine Schiefer: "I'm out."
Em Schulz: I'm like, oh my God. So I could just get what water? Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: I'm dining and dashing. Bye.
Em Schulz: And then there is a photo I think still hanging in the lobby probably under this like fugly buffalo head.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And uh, this, it's an early picture of the hotel and only sometimes is there a shadowy figure seen in the corner of the photo. So...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: That's giving goosebumps or something because like, uh, there's like only sometimes there's this thing in the picture.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a disappearing reappearing character in the photo.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is it... Does it have like a face or is it just like a shadowy silhouette?
Em Schulz: Just a shadowy figure in the corner.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I wonder who that is.
Em Schulz: Some... They think it's Buffalo Bill. That's what they say, but...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Is he in the pho... He's not in the original photo?
Em Schulz: I haven't seen the photo.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I don't know. But they, they, I, they're like, maybe it's Buffalo Bill, but like it could be anything.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, but I do think that's like very 'Twilight Zone' or 'Are You Afraid Of The Dark... '
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or something. Some hokey horror thing that you've seen as kid.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like a little cliche. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like disappearing in the picture and showing up sometimes. Anyway, so those are the main ghosts at this hotel. They have made efforts to cleanse the hotel from the spirits and it apparently has not worked. So I don't know what that means. Anyway, here's where I, that's the ghosts. This is where the story could end. But I need, I need to finish on, I need to finish on this deep dive that I did.
Christine Schiefer: Please. No one's stopping you.
Em Schulz: There's, so of the 15 original rooms of the hotel from the 1900s, I think all 15 still exist. They are known as like the original rooms and to mark them as original rooms, they are named after Wild West icons of the time and local pioneers of the area.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: So, umm, there's your classic Annie Oakley, Calamity Jane. There's Buffalo Bill. So you got your your famous cowboy situation. Then there are some other rooms that are named after like local frontiersmen and trappers who are really good friends with Buffalo bill. Boring. Nothing...
Christine Schiefer: Boring.
Em Schulz: Interesting about them. Nothing to see here. Then you got some people who have like a fun fact about them. So room 14 is a, is dedicated to Agnes Chamberlain, who is the wife of the town's first dentist. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Then there's uh...
Christine Schiefer: I love this.
Em Schulz: Room 16, who is named after Irma, nepo baby. It's just the daughter of Buffalo... Uh, a daughter of Buffalo Bill. And it was her room, so they didn't...
Christine Schiefer: It's just the daughter of Buffalo Bill. You know what Em? You sit down.
Em Schulz: They didn't even have to think about that one. They just went, that one fills itself in.
Christine Schiefer: Easy.
Em Schulz: Then there's, then there's room 31 who is named after Henry Dalum, who is the first county sheriff of the area, which I thought was boring, but apparently, his wife Bertha was a fantastic whistler. Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's the town whistler.
Em Schulz: That is, that is literally in his bio when they're describing...
Christine Schiefer: Bertha.
Em Schulz: This room. They're literally like, Bertha was an accomplished whistler.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. They should have named it the Bertha room, but whatever.
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying. I'm like, so what, he gets for what? Like...
Christine Schiefer: For what?
Em Schulz: She's clearly interesting enough that she is taking space into his bio. So let's just, let's just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Let's give her some credit.
Em Schulz: Then... These were my top three favorites. I have to give you my top threes. Umm, there is room 19 named after Jakey Schroub, who feels like not a real person.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Jakey Schroub was the manager of the town general store. He was the mayor of Cody and he was a town councilman. Apparently, he was the nicest person ever. Like the sweetest, nicest person ever. He was apparently given this one award at one point where basically you have to be voted as like the number one person in Wyoming to just have this award.
Christine Schiefer: Like a good person award.
Em Schulz: Like a good person award basically.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, he would, he was the, so he ran the general store. He would leave dinner parties just to go like take care of a customer if they needed something when the store was closed. I don't know how he had access to that without like a fucking phone, but okay. Umm, he fought to establish...
Christine Schiefer: It's just like, his wife made another pot roast and he's like, oh, sorry. Actually somebody is at the...
Em Schulz: You know how it is.
Christine Schiefer: General store. Umm, I'm gonna not go there and eat a bunch of beef jerkies while you're not looking.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He fought to establish the first state highway because he saw the significance of automobiles one day.
Christine Schiefer: Hey. We gotta mover and shaker over here.
Em Schulz: And he said, "for tourism, we have to be on board with the highway so people will come in one day to hang out here."
Christine Schiefer: He's on it.
Em Schulz: Fun fact. He was so big into, he was the original like car stepdad, you know what I mean? Like he was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, not the original.
Em Schulz: He owned the very first automobile in town and he would give all the kids rides and take them to school on winter days.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: He also drove the first car he has, this is like a real title that he has. He was the first person to ever drive a car in Yellowstone Park.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And fun fact his, so the town of Cody was incorporated and immediately after his son was born. So his kid is the first.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: Cody, Cody born resident.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Did they name him Cody?
Em Schulz: I hope so. And then in 1901, uh, there was an effort to start a town band to bring people in and Jakey joins even though he doesn't know how to play an instrument. He just wanted to be in the band.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Jakey is the person this room is named after.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I forgot the name already. Okay. Oh, oh, did we, did he, did he just get Bertha to whistle for him?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: He probably just like mouthed his mouth and she whistled behind him.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I feel like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like a two man show.
Em Schulz: Uh, he probably got jealous that Bertha was probably invited to the band and he went, wait a minute now I want in.
Christine Schiefer: If Bertha wants to go, I get to go.
Em Schulz: So anyway. Yeah, I loved that the town decided, you know what's really gonna get things kicking like without any social media or any other marketing, we're gonna have a band and they'll hear us from across the mountain.
Christine Schiefer: This feels like a Christopher Guest movie. Like, umm, like uh 'Spinal Tap' or, uh, 'Waiting for Guffman.'
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I dunno.
Em Schulz: Well, so anyway, that's Jakey Schroub. That's one of the rooms you can get. Another room that you can get is room 27, which, uh, is named after Verne Spencer. He was one of the last great frontiersmen. He owned the local taxidermy shop, and he was apparently such an impressive marksman by 13, that Buffalo Bill already like had his eyes on him for like a Wild West show.
Christine Schiefer: He's a star.
Em Schulz: He's a star like me. He was apparently one of the nature guides in the area for President Hoover, Ernest Hemingway, the Wrigleys, MGM executives and several movie stars at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: He once was wounded by an 1100-pound grizzly bear, which turned on him and slashed his chest open.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And then he survived. Umm, another time, he broke his ankle at a 15,000 foot high elevation and he used his own rifles as crutches. This is what my dad thinks he is.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um. And then, uh, he was a lifelong friend and neighbor to Caroline Lockhart saying "that she was quite the character." Now, who was Caroline Lockhart? Who was she? I gotta tell you. She is literally the woman of my dreams.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, tell me more.
Em Schulz: Because I saw in his bio lifelong friend and neighbor of 60 years of Caroline Lockhart and all he had to say was she was quite a character. And I went, now Verne, she must have been quite a character because she's getting mentioned here as if I'm supposed to know who she is.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I scroll down a little bit. Room 37 is dedicated to Caroline Lockhart.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank God. Okay.
Em Schulz: Who was quite the character. Now when I hear quite the character, I think I could, I could guess kind of what you mean, like, oh, she had like a, like a fun personality.
Christine Schiefer: She like quilted for fun and made silly designs.
Em Schulz: She's, she's quirky.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And also like quirky for like the mid 1800s. Like how quirky can you be?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I, I, I literally could not, I could not love a person more than this person. Her, I'm just gonna say it. Her novels and her columns rang with sharp wit, humor and bright hopes for the underdog. She was called one of the four best humorists in America.
Christine Schiefer: Hey.
Em Schulz: She was a, she was Boston's first female newspaper reporter, went under the pen named Suzette and covered featured assignments such as walking on the bottom of the Boston Harbor for a half an hour in early day in 250 pound diving gear, entering a circus cage with a lion who had killed his trainer the day before.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure.
Em Schulz: Interviewing a convicted murderer and testing out the Boston Fire Department's first fire nets by jumping out of a fourth store hotel window. Fourth story hotel window delight.
Christine Schiefer: She's a fucking delight.
Em Schulz: Lockhart was able to close down an illicit home for wayward women after she stayed there in disguise and investigated the atrocities.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She once joined a Circus and Vaudeville act and traveled with them. She also went to work cooking for the Osage indigenous people and apparently, no one could get in for a story about them, but only she did. And when her story came out, uh, that week's issue sold out in less than 30 minutes. Caroline was a close friend of Anna Jarvis, the woman who has been given credit for starting Mother's Day. However, Ms. Jarvis always held that it was really Caroline who deserved the credit due to all of her coverage of Mother's Day.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: She purchased and edited the Cody Enterprise, which is Cody's weekly newspaper and worked against prohibition's dry laws in her column called As Seen from the Water Wagon.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: She founded the Cody Stampede Rodeo, which is Cody's two day 4th of July celebration. She has been inducted into the Cowgirl Hall of Fame. She published many novels, three of which became movies. They were comedies and she kept pets such as wildcats, bears, eagles and snakes. And after...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: And after having seen performers riding bucking broncos multiple times, she insisted on trying it for herself against the urgent warning from Buffalo Bill himself. Her ultimate success in riding the bronco was met with a public congratulations from Buffalo Bill and a gift of one of his ponies. Her last notable achievement was at 79 when her and her boyfriend, a former rodeo clown Pinky Gist, bought one of the first television sets in Cody, Wyoming and would regularly host viewing parties for the neighborhood children...
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: So they could watch Hop along Cassidy.
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: Her, her Wikipedia picture is her holding a grizzly bear.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was gonna say, is it the one of a bear? 'Cause I just Googled her and there's literally a bear in the picture. I'm like...
Em Schulz: I'm in love with her.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Wow.
Em Schulz: I'm in love with her. In all of her pictures, she's smiling real big. She knows who she is.
Christine Schiefer: Uh I love this picture of her with a bar like at a, at a bar and uh, she's behind the bar and the sign says men will fit outside.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. Also one of her books, like all of her books, apparently, not, I don't know if all of them were, but most of them were comedies. Apparently, they were like really, really funny. And then one of them was like a, uh, it felt like it was like almost a time travel book where it was before... It was during the Old West and after the Old West. Umm, where like the, the first half starts with this group of people and the second half of the book is 20 years later where these people are now that the Old West is changing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's cool.
Em Schulz: And so it was a narrative on like how the Old West is is moving and changing. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: What's the guy's name? Pinky Gist?
Em Schulz: Pinky... Yeah. Gist or Gist. He was a rodeo clown.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: And they were boyfriend and girlfriend in their 70s. I love that.
Christine Schiefer: So sweet.
Em Schulz: She was like, I'm not marrying a single person.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And she died in only 1962. So it feels like weirdly...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Not far away.
Christine Schiefer: I am like so fascinated Em, I'm so glad that you discovered this information.
Em Schulz: Anyway. If I'm, if I'm ever going to this hotel, if I'm ever at the Irma, I am getting Caroline Lockhart's room.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you gotta.
Em Schulz: No questions asked.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta.
Em Schulz: If I didn't get that room, I would just cancel my whole reservation.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's the only time Em ever gets like, uh, what do you call it? Like, umm, A-list, like snotty, like...
Em Schulz: Do you know who I am?
Christine Schiefer: Cancel the whole thing. Do you know who I am?
Em Schulz: I am Caroline Lockhart's biggest fan. Put me in her room.
Christine Schiefer: I'm Caroline Lockhart's boyfriend.
Em Schulz: I'm Pinky Gist.
Christine Schiefer: I'm Pinky...
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's the Irma Hotel.
Christine Schiefer: Wow Em, that was, uh, that was quite a, quite a story. I'm still reeling a little bit from that.
Em Schulz: I feel like my, that could have been half the length, but between my deep dive, deepish dive on Buffalo Bill and Caroline, I literally... There was one website that kind of had like some of the meat and potatoes of Caroline Lockhart and then I just kept looking up more things about her. I couldn't stop. Like I was...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Up... I was up until the wee hours just learning more and more about her.
Christine Schiefer: Did you have weird dreams?
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Romantic ones.
Em Schulz: I know, but I kind of, I wish I summoned some of those.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. There's still time.
Em Schulz: Unfortunately, no. Yeah, there's still time.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. What a story Em. Thank you for sharing with me. And now, I'd like to go there. So let's do it. I guess we'll have to go at different times. So we can both stay in Caroline Lockhart's room or if you'll let me, I'll stay with you. But...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I uh, I could imagine us going ghost hunting just in Caroline's room. We just bring her like a grizzly bear as a gift, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know how you can just bring one.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think, or at least, at least watch her own movies in her room. That'd be fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. That would be fun. All right, so this is the story of Heather Teague. Umm, and I want to say this is not a local story, it's a Kentucky story, but it's, umm, it's, it's the far reaches of Kentucky. So we're...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Going back to the 1990s. So it's August 24th, 1995, in a town called Spotsville, Kentucky, which made me think of your Spotsylvania.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Spotsyl... What? Sorry, what's it called again?
Christine Schiefer: Spotsville.
Em Schulz: Spotsville. Okay. That's who I think. Oh no. Spotswood is who were named after. Nevermind.
Christine Schiefer: Spotsville is part of Webster County, which is all the way on the western side of Kentucky and borders Indiana. So not quite in my neck of the woods. So we're talking about Heather Teague today. She was at her mom's house, I think sources say she was, uh, living with her dad at the time, but was stopping by at her mom's house. And her mom, uh, woke up, saw her in the house, said hi to her. She was sleeping on the couch and her mom said, "oh, you know what, I'm gonna go and get you some groceries." She went to the store and bought her... Literally, it's so funny 'cause the mom, her name's Sarah and she's like a huge character in this. And when she was interviewed for the documentary I watched, she was like, "I went and bought some grapes and a sausage pizza." I was like, wow...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is all very detailed, but I love it. I need the details. So...
Em Schulz: But I feel like she was kind of like, uh, one of us where it's like, I'm gonna have my alibi fucking ready.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Don't even worry about it.
Christine Schiefer: It's not quite so much the alibi part...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's more just I think that she remembers the day very vividly, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Yikes. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So Sarah goes and buys some... She says, "I remember it clear as day, bought some grapes and a sausage pizza." And she said "Heather loved sausage pizza, but would pick the sausages off." And so I was like, that's very charming and sweet.
Em Schulz: All right. She liked it in the sauce, sausage.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she watched out the window as Heather left the house, umm, not realizing she would never see her daughter again. Now to clarify, which I realize I haven't even said yet. Heather is in her early 20s at this point. Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And she is a young woman. She's very well liked in town. Umm, she was Junior Miss 1990 runner, sorry, first runner up, Junior Miss 1990. And they have these like home videos of her in the Kentucky... I mean, think about like a pageant right, from the '90s, like a, like a beauty pageant.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Then think about a beauty pageant in Western Kentucky in the 1990s. And boy, howdy. Did I have a fun time watching that? Umm...
Em Schulz: I, I can't imagine just like debutante galore.
Christine Schiefer: Delightful. And like the sleeves. I mean, the sleeves alone could overtake the world. I think. I think the... Oh, and the polka dots, so many polka dots, man. I was like, this is such a little trip...
Em Schulz: [1:12:34.4] ____ the headpieces. There's gotta be a headpiece at some point.
Christine Schiefer: For sure. Some head headpieces for sure. Umm, and so it was just killing me that, that they have this footage. But, umm, she looked just so happy, friendly, bubbly. She was a little bit shy, umm, but she was just one of those people where everybody adored her. She was homecoming queen, even though she was a little bit more reserved. And she had plans to go to Western Kentucky University and become a psychologist. So she started college uh around 18, and she didn't realize how much of a challenge college would be for her. She fell into kind of a not so great crowd, started skipping school, partying and fell into drugs for a bit.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And because of that, she dropped outta school and moved home and couldn't really figure out what to do. So she found kind of a menial job at a factory. And her boyfriend at the time, umm, has been interviewed. And he said basically she was just so sad and lost because she had these big plans to go to college study psychology. And then, you know before you know it, she's made a few decisions and is back home working this job and like no future in sight that she had hoped for.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she really was struggling at this point. And, umm, we're now fast forward to August 26th, 1995. This, to be clear, is two days after she left her mom's house, which is why I specified. And so she's in her early 20s at this point. I specify this because the event I'm about to share with you happened two days later.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: After she left her mom's. And that's why I said that she lived with her dad because, umm, to clarify why her mom never saw her again, it wasn't like she vanished that day and she just...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Went off and her mom didn't realize she'd never got a chance to see her again. Yeah. So we're on August 26th, 1995. This is two days later and we're at Newburgh Beach. And, uh, the, in the documentary, which I'll mention a few times, it's on Paramount Plus, umm, or it's not a documentary, I'm sorry, it's an episode, uh, and it's called 'Never Seen Again' is the name of the series, but it's on Paramount Plus. And the quote about Newburgh Beach was, "the first thing you need to know is that Newburgh Beach isn't in Newburgh." And I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh. That's the first thing. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's the first thing that you need to know.
Em Schulz: So you have very little news if that's what you need know.
Christine Schiefer: And by the way, there was like no other things to know. It was just like the one and only thing you need to know is that it's not in Newburgh.
Em Schulz: Okay. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: All right. Thank you for that. Now, we know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, sure. It is apparently in on the Henderson County, Kentucky side. It's so silly. Okay. It's just basically a state border. So on the one side is Newburgh, Indiana.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: On the other side is the beach in Kentucky, like on the banks of the river.
Em Schulz: Sure. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They call it Newburgh Beach, even though Newburgh is across the river.
Em Schulz: Even though apparently a lot of people are fucking fuming about it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Apparently, people will never let it die. Never let it live it down. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They're like, she doesn't even go here. It's just a beach.
Christine Schiefer: The beach doesn't even go here. Umm, yeah. So Newburgh Indiana's across and that comes into play when people call authorities and state lines get involved, if that makes sense like state, state police versus another state's police.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Do, do you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Shall I say it again?
Em Schulz: I don't, is there a word for it?
Christine Schiefer: I just mean...
Em Schulz: Is that what you...
Christine Schiefer: So I, what I'm saying is it's, it's relevant because when people call the authorities, it's like, oh, that's not my jurisdiction. It's someone else's, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Because of the state differences. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Is, is, well, I'm just gonna ask too, is there a word for that? Because I've never really known how to...
Christine Schiefer: A jurisdiction?
Em Schulz: Or saying like, oh, well that's not in my, like I feel like that would be, there'd be a name for that of I don't, I don't know. I guess I don't know what I'm really saying, but yes, I've seen Law and Order and they say it all the time, where it's like...
Christine Schiefer: It's not.
Em Schulz: They're like, oh, well that happened in Jersey. It didn't happen in New York, so we can't do anything about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So this beach that's not in Newburgh, but it's called Newburgh is an active beach and river. Uh, there're outdoor activities. People like to take their four wheelers here, they go boating, sunbathing, etcetera. And so there's this guy, and his name is Tim Walthall, and he is at home around lunchtime on this date, August 26th, '95. And his wife is preparing his meal and he decides to sit down and do what you do, take a look through his telescope and see what he could see at the beach that day.
Em Schulz: So he was friends with, uh, Buffalo Bill and car people. Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Exactly. He's like such a dad. He has his little telescope set up and, you know, I don't wanna slander this person. I don't know what he was looking for, but you know, this is a beach where people are sunbathing and stuff. So I'm like, was he like bird watching? You know, as they say? Or was he like actually just doing what my actual stepdad would do, which is like, let me see what kind of boats are on the river today. You know, it's like, I don't know what kind of dad he was. If he was kind a pervy dad or like a not pervy dad. I don't know.
Em Schulz: He could have just wanted to look and skulk that people were calling it Newburgh, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. You're right. It was all part of his petition to change the name. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know. It could be anything.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I don't know what he was hoping to see or what he usually saw, but today, he just happened to see, uh, a little more than he bargained for because he is looking through the telescope and he is looking at the beach and he sees this young woman and she's sunbathing on her stomach and she's topless. And so, you know, for whatever reason he lingers on this sight for a few moments.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he's watching this woman laying on her stomach and then he realizes, oh, hang on, she's not alone. There's a man approaching rapidly.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. He is like witnessing it in real time. Oh fuck.
Christine Schiefer: He is witnessing it in real time, which is why, my guess is maybe he was like eyeing her for a while. 'Cause like the odds of just, I mean, maybe he just so happened to glance at her and this happened, but it seems like maybe you were watching for a little bit if you happen to catch this event.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But either way, he's watching and he realizes this woman is not alone. All of a sudden, there is this man racing toward her, and he's approaching rapidly. This woman can't see anything and this guy can't do anything 'cause he's so far away. So he does nothing, but he can do nothing but watch it happen and unfold in shock. He watches as this man rushes toward the young woman who's none the wiser. And at first, he's like, oh, hopefully it's just like a friend or a boyfriend or something. But as the man gets closer, it's very clear that he is not someone friendly to this woman.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I could see like, you're like watching a a guy creep up on someone and you're like, oh, it's like obviously her friend, he is gonna jump scare her.
Christine Schiefer: He's gonna dump sand on her or something, or like spray her with water.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And that's what of course he's hoping, but then really quickly he realizes no, when the man grabs the woman by the hair and yanks her up with a gun to her head.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Tim at this point freezes. He is completely shocked by what he's seeing. He watches as this man with a gun drags the woman by her hair into the woods and then they're gone.
Em Schulz: Don't even know what to do.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: I wouldn't even know.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit. Well, I'll tell you, you call 911 is what you should do. So he does do that. He calls 911, but he's in Indiana and he watched it take place on the beach in Kentucky. So he tells Indiana police and they hang up and 25 minutes go by and he's keeping an eye on his telescope, like, are the police coming or not? And nothing happens because apparently that is not their jurisdiction. Right. It's Kentucky.
Em Schulz: Oh, uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And as he is watching through the telescope, her stuff is still laying there on the beach, like it's completely untouched. And he's just, I feel like you'd almost be second guessing yourself. Like did I even just see that?
Em Schulz: Yeah, totally.
Christine Schiefer: Like it just feels so outrageous. And so after 25 minutes and he's antsy and he is nervous and he is like, what more can I do? So he decides to call Kentucky authorities even though his call was routed to Indiana 911, because that's where he's located.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he decides to call Kentucky authorities and he tells the whole story again. And this time a Kentucky State police trooper is dispatched, and as they're looking around the area, they find this woman's bikini bottoms and towel in the woods. And there is...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: A sign of a struggle. Turns out Tim, on his telescope also was not the only witness because a local farmer, uh, hired by a guy named Jim Boy Allen, which really does sound like an Irma Hotel Suite.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is the Irma room. This is the Jim Boy Allen room. Uh...
Em Schulz: He sounds like he was friends with Pinky Gist.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He sure does. Uh, so this local farmer had hired, umm, Jim Boy Allen to shoot a video of any cars driving through because he was getting mad. This farmer was getting mad that people were trampling his crops and like driving through his land to get to the beach. All these youngins, you know, like ruining my livelihood. So he hires this Jim Boy Allen, to, to take like a Handycam, like a camcorder and film which cars were driving past so they could like write it down.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I don't know, come after 'em, however you do.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they go through his fucking footage and they find footage of not only Heather's car near where she was sunbathing, but also this red Bronco with a man speeding away in the driver's seat.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So this show that I mentioned earlier, 'Never Seen Again' on Paramount Plus, it appears to be only a couple of years old. Umm, it's basically just like any other, I mean, I don't mean this in a bad way, but it's basically just like any of the other like investigation, Discovery, you know, show or things where it's kind of like...
Em Schulz: We've seen it before.
Christine Schiefer: You've seen this story, right? You've seen the talking head interviews and stuff. Umm, and I, the reason I kind of liked the way they did it though is that they went by theory. So they were like theory one.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And I thought, oh, that's kind of a unique take. Right? So the first theory is it's a local predator. Also, I wanna clarify 'cause I don't think I've like even said it yet, that that was Heather Teague to be clear. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yes. I think it was...
Christine Schiefer: Very quickly people saw her car. They knew that she was the one who had been taken from the beach. They called her mom, she came straight over and, uh, they could find nothing but her bikini bottoms and the towel, her mom confirmed, yes, that's hers. And, umm, after that, essentially, uh, they had no more clues. So we go straight into the theories.
Christine Schiefer: The first theory is that it is a local guy who's known to be a predator. So based on what Tim saw through his telescope, and this becomes a very contentious point. Based on what Tim sees through his telescope, they create a composite sketch of the man who had abducted Heather.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's a white male average build bushy hair with a potbelly. And interestingly, as they were simultaneously researching this red Bronco, they saw in the footage, they found this guy named Marvin Ray, also known as Marty Dill. And wouldn't you know it, he owns this red Bronco and he looks an awful lot like the composite sketch.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm gonna send you a picture of the two. So I... Just fair warning, I have several of these where I'm gonna show you the composite sketch next to somebody.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So even though, 'cause my first reaction is, "oh my God, it does look like him." But then like the third time you're like, okay, they all seem to look like the picture. If that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Yes, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: So here's a picture. This is Marty Dill on the right, that's his mugshot. Uh, and then that is the composite sketch on the left.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Do you see it?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: What are your thoughts? Or are you not sharing your, uh, you don't wanna get...
Em Schulz: I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Get any theories out yet.
Em Schulz: I see why people think... I see why people think they look similar, but it's just shaggy beard, shaggy hair.
Christine Schiefer: Shaggy beard, curly hair. Umm, yeah. And so this guy is a, has a record, and he's known to police. And so they release these photos. This composite sketch and the mugshot to the public. And they also release information about the red Ford Bronco. Now, not long after this. Umm, and I, I will say too, I didn't realize what his record, uh, entailed. Like what, what contained, umm, but I listened to Crime Junkie cover this, and apparently one, one of the crimes he had committed was he had been harassing this woman and calling her and saying like, "can I talk to your husband?" And he had just died. Like...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: So the guy, like, just, this Marty Dill just kept calling her and saying like, "can I speak to your dead husband?" Like over and over and just harassed the shit out of her.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so just some weird, weird stuff that this guy did.
Em Schulz: Like a dehumanizing or degrading...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like degrading a little bit. Like pervy, like he would kind of just harass people, women he didn't know, you know, just...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Very like bizarre calls into your character, that kind of thing. Umm, and so they, they post this stuff publicly and they post about his red Ford Bronco. And not long after police received an anonymous call about Marty saying he'd been acting very strangely. And the police were like, "oh, really? Tell us what he's been up to." And apparently when Marty Dill had found out that the police had stopped by and were looking into him, he screamed at his wife and everyone in the house to get out. He wanted them to be out of there, wanted nothing to do with this, didn't wanna wanna talk about it. Umm, and so he, the police get this call like he's acting really like defensive and strange, and they get a search warrant.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, proble-problematically, his lawyer had actually reached out to police and said, "please do not, do not, I repeat, do not go to this guy's house because if you just show up, he is going to die by suicide."
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The lawyer was like, "I know him very well, I know his intentions. If you just come hot at him like that, you're, he's going to die." And police put that aside, they show up. Umm, they actually send a friend of his in to talk to him.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the friend, they hear a gunshot, the friend comes running out and says, "Marty's dead."
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So either he was hiding something, he didn't wanna go back to jail for, for other unrelated charges, but now that becomes literally a dead end. Uh, this, this one...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This one lead...
Em Schulz: Even if... So yeah, even if he did we'll just never know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's, it's unless there's some other very clear clue pointing to him. Yeah. It's more just conjecture now. So they were sure that, that this was their guy. Right. And he, he dies, he, he shoots himself and they're like, "oh, well, you know, he's guilty, obviously, case closed." First of all, they don't even know where the hell Heather is. Right. Like question number one, where the hell is Heather? And...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Disturbingly, soon after this kind of showdown, uh, Heather's mom started getting some information from people that made her second guess this theory and the information, which by the way, police knew when they had stopped by the first time and he wasn't home. They talked to his wife and she said, "oh no, Marty, he's bald."
Em Schulz: Uh. Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This photo was like 15 years old or something. Like, it was like...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: An old ass photo. And now, he's completely bald. Or at least had shaved his head. He didn't have the hair. And multiple people confirmed that within, since, ever since he got outta prison, he has not had long, curly hair. Nothing shaggy.
Em Schulz: Weird. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No shaggy beard. Clean shaven. So...
Em Schulz: So, it couldn't be him either way.
Christine Schiefer: So they're thinking... So well, so police are like case closed, and Sarah, Heather's mom is like, "wait a minute, I'm getting intel from several reliable sources saying he didn't have scraggly hair." So she's like, "hang on, this doesn't add up. Like this does not sound like you got the guy and case closed." So she is getting a little bit antsy. And now not only is her daughter not home, but she thinks that she can't even trust that they found the guy who took her. So now we get into theory two, and most people believe, uh, which I tend to as well, not knowing as much as you know actual investigators on this obviously, but most people believe that Heather was targeted and not just a random girl on the beach that somebody attacked.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like most people believe something happened or she was involved in something or knew some shady characters that targeted her intentionally, that it wasn't just a random act of violence. So there was this drug ring crime syndicate throughout the area, umm, that she could have been caught up in. And we, we kind of know that she had gotten caught up in drugs during her college, like college...
Em Schulz: Sure. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Brief college stint. And so, you know, it's not farfetched to think like maybe she had some connections in a, you know, crime ring or group that got her into hot water. Umm, however, the flip side of that is that when Sarah finally got the documents from the FBI, she's been submitting for decades now, she's been submitting, umm, like FOIA requests to access all the paperwork. And when she finally got the heavily redacted FBI paperwork, she saw, which she was crying, and she said this because it like hurt her so badly.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The paperwork from the FBI said that the abduction was probably strongly related to drug use, strip clubs, and "prostitution."
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: And when her mom got this like decades later, she's like, "you're fucking kidding me. Right?" Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That...
Em Schulz: First of all, very, very likely to be untrue.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Very, very. Second of all, victim blaming.
Christine Schiefer: And like, so what? Right. And it's like, okay, yeah...
Em Schulz: Thi-third of all, so dismissive of like what the fuck is actually going on.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And like, if that actually played into it, then like how, why, tell us more. Like, you know, it's just weird to say that and then be like, anyway, we don't know. It's like, well then you can't claim that that's the reason if you don't even know who did it or, you know, it just so weird. So weird. And it like really hurt her deeply. And so even though she was into some like shadier "circles" or like crime rings. So what, like, even if she was, that doesn't mean like, you know, you just fucking dismiss it as like...
Em Schulz: Like why are we not just...
Christine Schiefer: Probably prostitution. The end.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Why are we not on the case because someone you deem as like not enough.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is the one who got attacked.
Christine Schiefer: Is like labeled in some way as the victim. Exactly. And so just a little bit, ugh. All over the place. And when investigators zoomed in on the Bronco, so now they're, they're looking into this as like she's been targeted by somebody. Right. So they zoom in, uh, on the footage of the Bronco and they can confirm, wait a minute, the guy driving this Bronco, which belongs to Marty is bald...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: In the footage. So they're like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, so he was there.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. So, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that...
Em Schulz: I hate this. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's so trippy.
Em Schulz: So so now, they don't, now is he back in...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: As a suspect, even though he's dead now right?
Christine Schiefer: Well, no. So the police are convinced it's him. Like the police are like, it's him for sure. Case closed. And as they're kind of like trying to close the, whatever you call it, like tie up the loose ends.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So to speak. Uh, they look into the footage and they're like, wait, so that, that guy in the car, in the truck, yes, is Marty, and he is bald, just like everyone's saying. So that really was Marty driving at the beach that day. But obviously then what about the guy Tim saw on the telescope with bushy hair and scraggly beard?
Em Schulz: Right. Like we're just totally ignoring that fucking guy.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so weird. So people were like, we don't know what to make of this. Like perhaps there was an accomplice, like maybe Marty was driving and he had an accomplice who got involved, and he was just the getaway driver. You know, who knows? And maybe that's why he ended his own life because he knew he was being cornered and he'd been caught.
Em Schulz: Ugh. That feels like such, like a really long-winded, complicated version of this where like, it could just be one guy.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what? What do you mean?
Em Schulz: Like, are you saying that it feels like they could have been in cahoots with each other and it was actually two bad people and one that was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's what they're trying to figure out is like if Marty was actually driving that day, but then Tim saw somebody different on the telescope, like maybe there were two guys, like maybe if he had an accomplice.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I, I feel like that's, I feel like that's overcomplicating things. I feel like it's a coincidence that that guy was driving and I think this other guy was like a standalone person.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. That you think that Marty Dill just happened to be there. Like it was just a...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Interesting.
Em Schulz: I think he just happened to be there. I have no evidence for that, but I feel like there's, I feel like for some reason the, maybe they were in cahoots and one person's over here and one person's over... I feel like that's too much. I feel like there were... I feel like this one guy is just getting away with it and we're blaming it on someone who else, someone else who was conveniently there.
Christine Schiefer: Who had a record or whatever?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm, well, interesting. Okay. So hold that thought, because like, to be clear...
Em Schulz: Okay.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: It's pretty ob... No, it's pretty obvious. We don't know what happened. So, you know, just to hold that thought, like if that's your theory. Umm, and so one of their thoughts was maybe, you know, if there is an accomplice, like he could be in the back holding her down while Marty drove, who knows. And then, umm, theory three, which kind of, it goes back to what you were just saying, umm, is the theory that this was a serial killer.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Now, it sounds farfetched because like, it just, it sounds farfetched. It sounds like, okay...
Em Schulz: It always sounds farfetched.
Christine Schiefer: Right? That it's a serial killer, like it sounds, but but hear me out. So July of 2002 in Medina, Ohio, uh, police called the investigators on the Heather Teague case.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They were investigating a killer named Christopher Below. And he, they were investigating him for the murder of his ex-girlfriend, Kathy Fetzer. And this police officer had tracked the guy down to Evansville, Indiana area and that's why he was calling and saying, "hey, can you keep an eye on this guy? He's in your neck of the woods. And we're looking at him as the murderer of this young woman."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So he calls just to give the police a heads up and uh, they're like, "oh, can you tell us more about this guy?" And he says, "yeah, we are keeping an eye on him for the murder of, or we're we're trying to pin him for the murder of, uh, of Kathy Fetzer. We've never been able to find her body. Umm, but as we followed him around in his past Christopher Below, we found a suspicious pattern of missing women cropping up anywhere he spent a lengthy period of time." So including, I think there were five, five missing women that they were...
Em Schulz: Oh that's not just a pattern anymore.
Christine Schiefer: No, that's like...
Em Schulz: That's like very onto something.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit. So this included St. Cloud, Florida, Hilton Head Island, like all over the place. And so they said, "hey, on the off chance any young women in your area go missing recently?" And like, they're basically asking just to be like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Well, we have to ask. And they're like, uh, yeah, there was.
Em Schulz: It's like, that's why we're on the phone with you almost actually.
Christine Schiefer: He literally... Exactly. Exactly. And so they're like, "oh shit, like maybe these are connected, obviously." So he looks at the photo of Kathern, this is the police, umm, who had, who were on the Heather Teague case. They sent over a photo of Katherine, uh, who they're trying to find and trying to solve her murder or her disappearance at least. And he looks at the photo of Kathern and goes, "holy shit, this could be Heather's sister." Like they look so similar. They're both under five...
Em Schulz: So now he's got a type.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. They're both five foot to five two inches, like very short, petite, very dark long hair. And so that pattern fit all of the people that had gone missing, all the women that had gone missing on his little travel spree. And therefore they're thinking, well, clearly this is his victim type, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that made it more alarming. Like maybe Heather was involved in this somehow and what's more, they could confirm he was living in the area during the time of the abduction. So it's it's looking a lot like this guy.
Em Schulz: I feel like it's, uh, kind of amazing. This whole story is only coming together because of a lot of happenstance.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, like how lucky, how lucky is she? Yuck. But to have been just been looked at through a telescope at the right fucking moment for someone to ID her and like, what are the odds? It's that the other town's police station is the one who called them...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And gave them the lead of this new person. Like it's just weird that it's, if none of these things happened, then she would just be a missing person. And they would do nothing.
Christine Schiefer: However, devil's advocate, she is still just a missing person and there are no answers. As I said, that's still unsolved. So even though all this...
Em Schulz: Mm. I keep thinking you're gonna have the answer at the end.
Christine Schiefer: Did happen, there's really, I mean, and I will also add that Sarah, Heather's mom, believes some of the, those like big pieces, like just complicated the search and, and added...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Inaccuracies or added, like, she does not believe that this call from Tim had, she thinks that call like completely derailed the investigation.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: She, she does not, she, but I will also say she's gone up and down through this rollercoasters decades, so, you know, take everything with a grain of salt. But she does not believe that it sort of happened the way that police tried to make it happen. They think... She thinks they were kind of like what you said, she thinks they were trying to maybe pin it on this guy Marty.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But she, she's also, she's, we, we'll get to it, we'll get to it, but I'm gonna send you a photo now of the, umm, sketch, the composite sketch next to Christopher Below... This like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Suspected serial killer guy.
Em Schulz: Okay. He looks less like the guy than the first guy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think so, but I can still see it like the nose and the eyebrows. I don't know something about it.
Em Schulz: I think if his, if his hair was like shorter and like more frayed or something, like his, the hair on his head is throwing me off. But the rest of him does look like the composite sketch.
Christine Schiefer: I agree with you. And like I said, he is big time trouble, right. Because the FBI is now involved, he's suspected in the disappearance of five women, he lived in the area, she fit his victim profile, and the composite sketch fits. And I wanna add one more picture, Em, because if that one didn't shock you, this one might, umm...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: This is another picture of his, this is like a whole body comparison of his actual self and the picture...
Em Schulz: Oh damn. That, that's pretty, that's pretty spot on then.
Christine Schiefer: The sketch. Is that not freaky? Down to the...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's so weird. From his neck to his belly button, they are identical.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And he had a limp and like that matched the description.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And he also had this genetic thing where his thumbs turned inward and that was reflected in the drawing. It's like very, very, but then, you know, people argue like, well, maybe they were influenced to, who knows. But it is a very like, unsettling, uncanny likeness.
Em Schulz: It's weird.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It is weird.
Christine Schiefer: It's weird. Uh, so we'll share all this on, on socials as well, if anybody wants to see specifically. Umm, so now police are like, "well shit, Christopher Below is on our radar. We gotta check into this guy because he very well could have had something to do with this." And hey, wouldn't you know it Emmathy?
Em Schulz: Tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Christopher Below and remember Marty Dill in the red Bronco?
Em Schulz: Are they friends?
Christine Schiefer: They've been friends since grade school. That's why I said hold that thought, because you could be right. But there's also more to it.
Em Schulz: But also I don't think I'm right anymore.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. And it's like, it's like who the fuck knows? I mean I, people have also said Marty was very, uh, mentally unstable and mentally ill and just didn't wanna go back to prison. And that's why he...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Used the gun. So it's like, you know, it's...
Em Schulz: Or he could have known what his friend was up to and...
Christine Schiefer: Or that.
Em Schulz: And that information you know. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or that, and anyway, there's no way to know. It's just, it's just really frustrating.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the theory is that perhaps Below stalked Heather, this, this, this one theory...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Is that, uh, Below stalked Heather went down to the beach, violently abducted her, and Marty was waiting in the Bronco and they kind of jumped in the back and drove off. And, umm, his exes, this Christopher Below, when they interviewed people who knew him, basically any woman he had been with said he was a very sexually violent man. So even on top of like, of course, these horrible crimes like abducting women, umm, that the, the sexual violence aspect of it also seemed to fit that she was abducted and they found her, you know, bathing suit in the woods.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so unfortunately they actually never found Kathy Fetzer's body, the, the Medina...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Police were looking for. But in 2004, Below pleaded guilty to attempted involuntary manslaughter and her disappearance. And, umm, there's some weird shit. Like the, the detective who interviewed him during interrogations said on the show, on the, uh, Paramount Plus show, he basically said that Below was saying all this very shady shit, like, "I doubt there's much left to find if you do find her." And apparently, he also said, "if I told you what I did with her body, you'd think I was a horrible person." Like weird commentary like that. But then sometimes I'm like, I don't know, sometimes creeps just talk like that to I, I don't know. It doesn't prove anything. Right. But it's not a good look.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he's actually never been charged in the disappearances of the other women, uh, that he's accused of, or, uh, suspected of abducting and killing. And so even though he's like this potential serial killer, it's all alleged because he's not been tried with the other cases. Just that, just the girlfriend. And it was only manslaughter, which makes me very sad.
Em Schulz: I mean, what's your, what's your take? Do you think that that, even if he hasn't been of tried, do you feel like this is the right answer?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for, for, for this story particularly?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know Em. I'm like so mixed up. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I, I mean, I don't, I think it's, I think it's him.
Christine Schiefer: Do you think so? That's like my gut too. And I think I got throwned just because I listened to several podcasts about it, watched several shows, and I felt like it's such a convoluted case because, well, it's obvious, like, convoluted in that like, just weird events, like you said, like a guy just happened to look through telescope and like, there just happened to be two people who looked identical to the sketch just then that guy just happened to be bald and just weird stuff...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That keeps cropping up. That is throwing me for a loop every time where I go, that's for sure him. And then they're like, but it couldn't be, it's very frustrating. Umm, and then of course, you know, I wanna respect Sarah, but also part of me is like, you know, she doesn't know, you know, what happened either. So...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's just very frustrating. It's very frustrating. Umm, I can only imagine what it's like to actually be involved, but the story itself is very frustrating. Umm, so this month, August 2024...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Marks 29 years since Heather's disappearance, and her mother still has zippo, like just no answers.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." I know you said that there, that we didn't get an answer at the end of this...
Christine Schiefer: I know, but...
Em Schulz: But I still keep not believing you.
Christine Schiefer: It's because like once you hear so much information, you're like, oh, well surely this led to something and then to hear like nothing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, how could it be, you know? Umm, and, and I will say there's a lot still kind of happening. Like, uh, Sarah is still actively working the case. She apparently has worked it harder than anybody else, umm, which is understandable...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Being the mother, you know, and trying to find answers and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Saying I gotta do this myself if, if I can't get answers any other way. And so despite the detectives urging that it was Christopher Below and Marty Dill, she believes either she's, she said a few things, and I don't wanna put words in her mouth because I've heard this from different sources. Like on Crime Junkie, they mentioned, oh, that, that Sarah believed that, or had said she believed that the 911 call that Tim called in...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Was faked.
Em Schulz: Uh, but didn't she also say she didn't trust or, or wrote like trust his account of what he saw in the telescope too, right?
Christine Schiefer: So I kind of hinted at that, but basically what I meant when I sort of hinted at that was that she doesn't even think the call is real. Like she, she thinks...
Em Schulz: Oh, she thinks the whole thing was just not even true.
Christine Schiefer: I think... And so I, and I also don't wanna just like blatantly say that that's my understanding of what she thinks.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And it feels like a lot of telephone, you know, like, I don't wanna say she thinks this, that. From what I heard, it seems like she thinks there was some shady shit going on, umm, on the investigator side.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And there, there's a lot of drama, a lot of drama with her, with the court system, with, with police department. There's a lot going on there. And I don't know enough to like make a judgment call. Umm, but she, you know, it is her, also her right to hope that her daughter's still alive. And so she hopes, umm, you know, if, if Marty and Christopher Below didn't kill her, uh, and perhaps something else happened, perhaps she was human trafficked. Umm, she just wants people to know, like, I don't care if, if something did happen to her and she was taken somewhere else and is still alive, it just always breaks my heart when people at the end of every one of these shows have to leave like a message, like, in case you happen to see this Heather.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, she basically said, if you somehow on the off chance you see this, I don't give a shit where you've been, what you've been doing. Like, I just want to hold you again. And it was like, fuck my life. Like, just to watch that. And you know, she has to say that every show she does, every appearance, every interview.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, just to hold that hope.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And just like a... Yeah, a constant, I don't know, just feeling like you're in a constant dead end and having to constantly...
Christine Schiefer: And the pain is like just brought up over and over, but you do it because you're like, maybe this time I'll get something, you know, find something out and so...
Em Schulz: It's amazing how much hope a person can have.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. And then, uh, yeah, yeah, I agree. And it, it can also be so debilitating, right? Because she's almost like paralyzed. Like I...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She just wants to know, because otherwise you're sort of stuck, like not, not knowing...
Em Schulz: Well, so I mean, to live without any closure for like, what'd you say? Like 30 years, 20 years now?
Christine Schiefer: 29. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: She, she said, so this, uh, episode came out and, umm, it was 26 and a half years when the episode came out, and she said, "that's longer than I had her." And it's like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: That's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's so fucking tragic. And so, you know, she hopes against hope. She knows it's a slim chance, but she hopes against hope her daughter's still alive. Umm, but if not, she would also, of course want closure, want answers, be able to lay her to rest properly. Give her...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Give her a proper send off and through tears... This part also got me, and I think it'll get you too, Em. Like I feel like sometimes I tell like a little side story that makes it so much more human and relatable and grounded. But she says, she started crying. She basically said, "every time I get a phone call from an unknown number and I answer, if there's a beat of silence," like before she said, it's usually social security or a telemarketer. She says she always answers. And if there's that like beat before the recording starts, she's like, I can't even stop myself. I hear myself go, "Heather," and then it's, you know, inevitably social security, some scam, you know, telemarketers, what have you. But she said...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Every time she just has that like hope, that like tiny flicker of hope. And interestingly, I just happened to look into this case because I was looking up a bunch of Kentucky cases, and I found this one, and it incidentally, five days ago, a headline was released in the Courier Press that read Heather Teague's Mother Sues Kentucky State Police and FBI for Civil Rights Violations. And so this is a very developing story. Within the last week as we record this, she's suing for $29 million claiming that the state police of Kentucky and the FBI mishandled the investigation into Heather's disappearance. I will say it's also not the first lawsuit, uh, she's put forward. There have been several...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that have been dismissed or like...
Em Schulz: Well, throughout the years, I imagine you've, you've got a lot of, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Information you have to weed through and...
Christine Schiefer: Try and...
Em Schulz: Define.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And so that's kind of what's been happening. And so the newest update is that as of, uh, I think now six days ago, that she's suing for 29 million, umm, and this is the article itself, umm, in The Courier Press said, she said, "the lawsuit comes after law enforcement spent almost three decades ignoring evidence she's collected. That goes against the narrative investigators settled on from the beginning that a man named Marvin Ray, Marty Dill appeared from a line of trees along the beach and hauled the sunbathing Heather away." On top of the damages, she wants explanations and accountability. "I have a piece that I've presented all I need to," she said, "it's their turn now to explain to me why they've done this."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she really is hoping she can get some clarity. She also, I will add too, I think part of the complication is that she's made some accusations that police are not thrilled with. Like she said, with the 911 call, she was able to listen to it years ago. Then a few years later, they let her listen to it again. And she claimed it was a different recording.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so everyone said, "well, holy shit." Like, you know, maybe they forged it, maybe they made it up, but then...
Em Schulz: Or maybe like she's... Oh what...
Christine Schiefer: Ashley from Crime Junkie made a good point that like, he probably made, he made two different calls. He called Indiana and he called Kentucky.
Em Schulz: Oh, right.
Christine Schiefer: So he told...
Em Schulz: That's a great point.
Christine Schiefer: The story twice over the phone. So like, it could be that she's just hearing two versions of him telling the same story.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Because she's never clarified why they sounded different. It just said like, it was a different, it sounded different. So, or it could be, for example, like somebody playing a recording on a CD versus like a tape recorder, you know, or who knows. But, umm, she's made some claims that have like caused upset, uh...
Em Schulz: Understood.
Christine Schiefer: And there's been a lot of like conflict between her and the police and trying to get information, umm, and get to the bottom of things. She's claimed that like, uh, the police are framing Marty because, you know, it was kind of an easy get, like sort of what you said. And uh, that's what we know, which isn't a whole lot. And it's really tragic and frustrating and, you know, I'm hoping that Sarah, like, through this court case or through some other means, is able to like finally get the closure. Umm, we can hope, you know, it happens. So that's what, that's what I hope. But that is a story of Heather Teague. And like, like I said, I didn't know about this lawsuit until I was researching it. And now I'm like, man, maybe I should have waited to see like what comes of it. But I'll keep an eye on it either way, umm, as the lawsuit progresses. But in the meantime, if you do have any information, umm, her name is Heather Danielle Teague. Her date of birth, April 25th, 1972. She's been missing since August 26th, 1995. If you have any information, you can call 270-836-7643 or visit findheatherteague.com. And that's the story.
Em Schulz: You know, I've, umm, someone just asked us recently like, what my favorite stories that you cover are, and I feel like, umm, usually I would say the unsolved mysteries. 'cause I like to dip my toe into that and see like, but I, I always get frustrated at the end when I realize that I'm actually not going to crack the case single handedly.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's like, how come? Weren't they just waiting for us?
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This whole time.
Em Schulz: I, I, this is very frustrating though, because I feel like of the theories you put forward, each of them were believable.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Each... They really were. I don't, I, I feel like sometimes there's like one outlandish one. I'm like, okay, but, but...
Christine Schiefer: Aliens, yeah. There you go. That's the outlandish ones.
Em Schulz: It could be aliens. Umm, man. Yeah, I already said it, but it really is amazing how much hope a person can have, just...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Waiting... Just there... I don't know if it's even hope or just desperation for closure. Like, it's just 'cause I, I'd have both.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's both. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, man. Do you, umm, how, uh, how did you hear about this one?
Christine Schiefer: I was just researching, umm, Kentucky stories, umm, because Saoirse's out for a little bit, so I was like, oh, back on my research game and I forgot what I Googled usually. So I was like, crimes in Kentucky, question mark. I don't know. I didn't, I didn't, I was like, man, it's been a while since I've had to like, pull a topic from thin air, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Umm, no, that's what I did with mine. I was like, what's a state I'd never, ever cover?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's smart. I like how...
Em Schulz: I was like it's Wyoming.
Christine Schiefer: What's my state? You're like...
Em Schulz: Well, I can't do that with LA. There's, there's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: Too many. I think I've really covered the main ones anyway too like the Cecil Hotel and all that stuff.
Christine Schiefer: The haunted. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but no, that was, I mean, well done on your, on your research since, uh, this was...
Christine Schiefer: It was a little...
Em Schulz: 100% you.
Christine Schiefer: It was really chaotic. I felt it happening. I was like, oh, by the way, did I say it was Heather? Like, I'm, I knew I was all over the place. I apologize. Umm, things have been, uh, a little bit of upheaval behind the scenes. Not in a bad way, folks with us, but like, just a lot happening. A lot of, a lot of...
Em Schulz: Everyone's getting hit with something.
Christine Schiefer: Moving parts. Everything's kind of happening. It feels like, you know, when it rains, it pours like everything's happening at once. Umm, and so we're trying to...
Em Schulz: Everything comes in threes and I think, I think we've hit our threes. So I think we're good now.
Christine Schiefer: I think we've hit 33. Umm.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, so we've been doing our own research for, for a second and, uh, but anyway, it gave me the ability to find Caroline Lockhart. So...
Christine Schiefer: There you go. And honestly, you're better for it, I would say, umm, with that new discovery of your soulmate. So.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 1000%. Uh, okay, cool. Well, next time you hear from us, we'll be coming up on our tour. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Please go and buy tickets. Thank you so much. Especially if you are in the New Jersey area. We're really trying to get Newark up. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's our first show, so we're trying to get a a rowdy crowdy for our first show. Let's do it.
Em Schulz: I love a rowdy crowdy. If you're not loud on our first show, I'll cry throughout the whole second show. And, uh, Terrytown does not want that.
Christine Schiefer: And you'll ruin it for everyone in Sleepy Hollow.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It won't be Sleepy Hollow that day. It'll be very loud hollow, just 'cause it'll be me scream crying.
Christine Schiefer: Oh you mean Weepy Hollow.
Em Schulz: Weepy Hollow. That's right. Okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I also wanna add real quick, we're gonna do an After Dark. Umm, and I'm excited because today is my day for show and tell. We're starting a fun little show and tell situation. So, uh, we're gonna go do that, and I'm gonna pick from one of my many items here in my cluttered ass office, uh, to do a show and tell on on Patreon. So if you wanna join us, uh, go to patreon.com/ ooh is it, andthatswhywedrink. I always forget, but we're on there somewhere so you can find us in the show notes.
Em Schulz: And get our book because we're coming up on, uh, pre-orders. We're, we're almost almost through with that.
Christine Schiefer: We have a lot of action items for you people. It's time to get to work.
Em Schulz: Do everything.
Christine Schiefer: Get to work.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
