[intro music]
Christine: Paw patrol. Paw patrol. Be there on the double.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Whenever there's adventure...
Em: Keep it going. If you're gonna do this...
[vocalization]
Christine: Save the day.
Em: Okay. I see.
[chuckle]
Christine: Paw Patrol. Paw Patrol as in...
Em: Pawfect.
Christine: Thank you. I, umm, my intrusive thoughts have become increasingly deranged lately, and it's mostly regarding animated children's television.
Em: I imagine having a child only makes you more deranged because...
Christine: Oh, for sure. For sure. It's a good...
Em: I saw...
Christine: It's a good cover though, you know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: It's like a good cover for being deranged.
Em: It's like, sorry, mom brain. Ha, ha, ha.
Christine: Tired mom. Yeah.
Em: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em: It's like, no girl, you've been this way since birth.
Christine: I've been mentally ill for, since birth, but I like to have a child to blame it on now.
Em: I saw a meme this morning that said, umm, emotionally, I think I have rabies. And I was like, I was like, that, that feels right. But I, I...
Christine: It's an invisible illness. Okay.
[laughter]
Em: Umm, what...
Christine: I can say that 'cause I have an invisible illness. Okay? Before anyone yells at me, like a real one.
Em: Are you... What are you drinking? It looks like you're having a Pina Colada or something.
Christine: I fucking wish, dude, I am drinking... That would be at like, one in the afternoon, man, on a, on a Tuesday. Umm, it's iced coffee, sorry. With lemons on it. Somebody made this for me, a fan, and I don't remember who. It's like a reusable Starbucks to-go cup with lemons all over it. And I love it.
Em: Wonderful. I, umm, there's a... I don't know what's going on. I'm in like a Pina Colada era right now.
Christine: Oh.
Em: I think I'm just in like a pineapple coconut era 'cause that's all that it is for me, but...
Christine: Okay. I feel like I've noticed that for a while.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: 'Cause you're like a big lover of the pineapple juice. And then a few times I've seen the coconut mixed into the situation.
Em: I think I was always into... Honestly, I, I didn't like coconut as a kid and I've been really liking a flavor recently that I didn't know what it was.
Christine: Gasp.
Em: And I realized that it was coconut because I just never, I wasn't familiar with that flavor 'cause I didn't grow up eating it. And I was like, oh, I guess I like coconut then. And so then I started asking for pineapple coconut things and everyone was like, so like a Pina Colada?
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: And I was like, is that what that is? I guess so.
Christine: Welcome, welcome.
Em: Umm... So I found out recently we have a boba place kind of near us and they actually make a lovely non-alcoholic Pina Colada smoothie.
Christine: Oh, that sounds good.
Em: And so I've been getting that recently. And then Allison, uh, had a...
Christine: I think it's the fact that you said a non-alcoholic smoothie. That's my favorite part. Like as if...
Em: Sorry.
Christine: As if the other ones are...
Em: I mean...
[overlapping conversation]
Em: A drug and alcohol, a liquor.
Christine: It's a straight edge smoothie.
Em: Well, umm...
Christine: For all the squares.
Em: Well umm... And then Allison recently found one of, it's kind of her favorite coffee place. It's not really my favorite coffee place, but they actually make a lovely London Fog. And right now, they are, uh, I don't know if this is a regular thing or a new thing. They are making a cold foam, which I usually can't really have cold foam 'cause I feel like they still taste like coffee to me, which is so weird 'cause a lot of times it's just like cream. But anyway, this one is lovely. It is half lavender, half coconut, and it tastes like a Pina Colada and a London fog had a baby.
Christine: Sounds really good.
Em: I'm kind of really digging it. So...
Christine: That sounds really good.
Em: That's what I had three of yesterday. Umm.
Christine: Yummy. I wish we had that sponsor.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Let's just talk about smoothies and alcoholic and non-alcoholic smoothies.
[laughter]
Em: Yeah. Uh, that would be lovely.
Christine: I love that, like...
Em: I really...
Christine: In that, with that, by that logic, uh, a margarita is an alcoholic smoothie, right? Because it came from a blender.
Em: Isn't it? I mean, I get that they're, what are they called, blended drinks?
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Is that what it is?
Christine: Yeah. Frozen margarita. I guess I'm talking...
Em: It still is... Every time I, I think because I don't drink alcohol, I still have a different perception of alcohol...
Christine: No, no. It makes sense.
Em: Than everyone else.
Christine: It does.
Em: Because anytime someone gets a blended drink, I'm like a little smoothie.
Christine: It's a slushy, right?
Em: It's a little smoothie.
Christine: It's, it's basically a slushy that from 7-Eleven that you pour vodka into essentially.
Em: Exactly.
Christine: Right. Like, what's the difference?
Em: Oh you got a little Slurpee. You're having a Slurpee.
Christine: You think you're better than me. Oh, sorry.
Em: Yeah. It's like you're literally drinking a Slurpee. Shut up.
Christine: Come on.
Em: Going for a nickel, uh, at 7-Eleven. Thank you.
Christine: Yeah. Nice try.
[laughter]
Em: Umm, anyway, so I don't know how we got where we did. Oh, your Paw Patrol, is that 'cause you were watching it with Leona? Is that what happened?
Christine: Oh yeah. She's really into it. And like, she's never really watched it before and then...
Em: Wow. She's into cops. That's crazy.
Christine: That's what I'm saying. I played it and I was like, ah, listen, every kid's show has cops in it nowadays. Okay. That's just part of the part of what you deal with. Umm.
Em: It's, it's part of the indoctrination of the woke right, you know?
Christine: No, but see, part of it is, I think there's an agenda, right? Well, of course there's an agenda, but I think there's a different agenda because half the time, it's like a gay mom cop, you know what I mean? Like...
Em: I see.
Christine: They try to like mish mash...
Em: They're trying to bridge, bridge the gap.
Christine: Yes. Yes. Bridge the gap. It's like, okay, we can put cops, but only if they're like, uh, people of color, or I'm sorry, animals of color or whatever the fuck. Like, it just feels...
Em: AOC.
Christine: They're, yeah.
[laughter]
Christine: Yeah, exactly. Like they're either gay or, you know, it's like, oh, they kind of find these ways to like weave both, uh, narratives...
Em: Stories. Uh-huh.
Christine: Yeah. It's very strange. But, umm I...
Em: A cop with empathy.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: A cop with... ACAB. All Cops Are Beautiful.
[laughter]
Christine: I... All cops are...
Em: Someone's gonna steal that soundbite and I'm gonna be in trouble. What...
Christine: ACAD. All Cats Are Dogs. Wait, no. All Cops...
[laughter]
Christine: Hold on. All Cops Are Dogs. Okay, hold on. Uh, I'm confused now. I'm confused.
Em: AGAS. All Geese Are Silly.
[laughter]
Christine: Oh my God. Uh, anyway, I forget what we were talking about. But the point is, umm, it's actually kind of a cute show and there's a little firefighter named Rob, or no, that's not his name. Marshall the Dalmatian. And, umm, he just makes my heart happy. And I don't know...
Em: It's precious.
Christine: I was like, you know, whatever. Just watch it. And there's, umm, some, some good jams. I mean, she's really into Spidey too, so.
Em: Mm.
Christine: I feel like she's into more of like the "boy shows," you know, like as far as...
Em: Good for her.
Christine: Yeah, I know. Which is kind of fun. And then there's 'Gabby's Dollhouse,' which is like Sparkle Pink Mermaid Magic. And I'm like, oh, wow. We've, we talk about bridging a gap. We really run the gamut here at my house.
Em: You're raising a true non-binary queen.
[laughter]
Christine: I hope so. I don't know, man. I can't even tell what her interests are yet. She's all over the place. Umm, so...
Em: Good for her.
Christine: We're just riding out all the many waves, you know, and just singing along, trying not to lose our minds.
Em: When you were her age, do you know what your favorite things were? Like do you have a, not a recollection, but had like your, have your parents told you what you liked?
Christine: Oh, I thought we usually save the shadow work book for after the show.
Em: Oh, right. Sorry. Okay.
[laughter]
Em: I just meant do you like fucking rainbows...
[laughter]
Christine: I know, I know. I'm kidding. Umm, I'm kidding. I loved, uh, doctor stuff. I was like, hyper fixated...
Em: Really?
Christine: Yeah, and like, I think about it sometimes. I'm like, it was a weird level. Like, I was like reading in the dictionary, all these words about like medical stuff and trying to like, watch every medical episode. And of course we didn't have, like, there's a 'Gullah Gullah Island' episode where they go to the doctor that I've been trying to find for years, because I like remember so vividly watching it and going, that's me. I'm gonna be a doctor one day. I don't know why. Like, I clearly grew outta that real quick. But, umm...
Em: I will tell you, I didn't like doctor stuff, but I did love 'Gullah Gullah Island.'
Christine: I loved that show.
Em: The way that I, I think my first crush ever was Binyah Binyah, who's a fucking, not even a frog. It's a fucking tadpole.
Christine: It's not even... Yeah.
Em: He's a tadpole.
Christine: It's like a giant walking tadpole. It's like disturbing.
Em: Also, is it like, did they just find a costume?
Christine: Allison, I hope you find comfort in that being Em's first crush was that giant tadpole. Umm...
Em: I'm gonna go outside.
Christine: And Allison has never even watched. I remember we got the first like, big cultural moment at, Allison and I had where a conflict of our backgrounds was just too strong. It's the time she had never seen, umm, never seen, uh, Loonette the Clown.
Em: Ugh.
Christine: What's that show called?
Em: I can't even... Umm, 'The Big Humpy Couch.'
Christine: Thank you. And I said, you, you don't understand. And so I laid on the floor of our dorm room, which had like...
Em: And did the clock.
Christine: Never vacuumed and did the clock. And she was like, are you out of your damn mind? And this was before I like drank or did anything. So I was like, I'm actually extremely sober and serious. You need to learn about the clock stretch.
Em: Fun fact, that clock rug is now available on Etsy, if you wanna get one for Leona.
Christine: Of course. How have I not thought of that. If they have the 'Blue's Clues' furniture, you know, of course they have the clock rug. Oh, that would be fun.
Em: It's, it's saved in, it's probably the earliest thing that's saved in my cart is 'The Big Comfy Couch' rug. So...
Christine: That's unbelievable.
Em: Well, uh, no, uh, what I was gonna say about Binyah Binyah, uh, from 'Gullah Gullah Island' is do you think they just found a random costume that was vague enough and they were like...
Christine: That's a really good point.
Em: I guess that's a tadpole...
Christine: Oh, I forgot. I meant to talk to you about this. I, last year got, I found 'Gullah Gullah Island' online. I was having like one of those moments where I found like the CD-ROM I used to play, which was, umm, 'So You Wanna Be a Veterinarian?' It was my favorite CD-ROM, and I found like a play through of it online, right? And I was watching it and then I was like, oh, that's, this reminds you of 'Gullah Gullah Island.' So I started watching 'Gullah Gullah Island' 'cause you can find the episodes online. And then I went to a deep dive on Wikipedia. Remember when I thought I was, I didn't have ADHD, umm, or OCD or any...
Em: What a time!
Christine: Other mental illness. Umm, I, I, I went through all their Wikipedia pages, like everyone on the show. And I think like the two main, it's something like two of them were actually married or there's like some weird like, actual lore behind the show that I was like, nobody cares about this except Alexander, I should have texted you.
Em: I had the same, no, I don't know if it was 'Gullah Gullah Island' or if it was, maybe it was 'Gullah Gullah Island.' The two were actually married in real life. I think that was real. But also I was told that at four, so I don't know.
Christine: And you also believed that you were gonna...
Em: I did believe...
Christine: Marry that giant tadpole. So I don't know.
Em: I thought I was gonna be that married couple's in-law, for sure.
Christine: Yeah, for sure. But raise frog children.
Em: Yeah, no, I thought, umm, the same thing for 'Out of the Box,' but I thought the two of them were dating.
Christine: Oh, I never watched that.
Em: When they go... Wait... They do...
Christine: I don't even know what that is.
Em: When they, they sing a song, they, so long farewell to you my friends. And then they do the, uh, they do, they do a thing.
Christine: Whoa.
Em: Shut up.
Christine: I'm not... I don't even know this show. I've never watched this show. I don't...
Em: Oh, it makes me so mad that I don't know it. Like I, I, if I were watching it, I would know it.
Christine: Whatever you did looked cool to me. So I'm not even...
Em: It's part of the, so they're, they're, the whole concept of 'Out of the Box' is they're thinking out of the box while they're literally sitting in a fucking box. And so they're it...
Christine: Oh yeah!
Em: Which is like low budget much.
Christine: Yeah. Wait a minute. Yeah.
Em: So it's that they built this like tunnel of boxes and it's like a play for it. And, but because you're thinking out of the box, it's not just a cardboard box anymore. You're in this magical land.
Christine: Imagination. I see.
Em: And the two of them are like...
Christine: Did it go like this?
Em: Your buddies.
Christine: Out of the box. Is that right?
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Okay. So I do know this somewhere in the recesses of my mind 'cause I...
Em: But at, but at the end, they always sing the goodbye song. But then there's a part where you always do the, they do the hand part, like it stop, all the music stops and you just do a hand part. And I swear to God, it's like, I think that's what it is, but...
Christine: Woah!
Em: I have to see the, I could be totally wrong.
Christine: Well, either way...
Em: We'll do that at the end of this episode.
Christine: I was gonna say, that could be our new closing since we never know how to end the episode.
[laughter]
Christine: Yeah. We'll just do a weird clapping motion. We'll do that...
Em: They're not still trademarked. Right? We could do that now.
[laughter]
Christine: I don't think they were ever trademarked.
[laughter]
Christine: Umm, not that I know what a trademark is. That's been proven abundantly clear to me, uh, recently. Umm, no, I, uh, we could do like our own friendship hand... Secret handshake to end the show, you know.
Em: I love that. No one's done a virtual handshake yet.
Christine: No. And I...
Em: That could be us.
Christine: I feel like that's really cool. I like how probably everyone's done a virtual handshake. We're just like...
Em: You know kids who have secret handshakes probably during COVID learned to do it over Zoom, so...
Christine: I was gonna say, I'm sure there've been some efforts made to virtualize the secret handshake, but...
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: We can, we can hop onboard, I think.
Em: We'll figure it out. Anyway.
Christine: Anyway.
Em: Why do you, why do you drink this week, Christine? And what do you drink?
Christine: Oh wow. Umm, I brought myself a vitamin water. Uh, you know, it says Focus on it. So that's how you know it'll do the trick.
Em: That you're suffering.
[laughter]
Christine: Also that.
[laughter]
Christine: Umm, I drink this week because we are gonna start potty learning this week.
Em: I thought she was already potty learning.
Christine: We were slowly but surely and, and we've had some regressions and some, some just like lack of interest. So, uh, we're...
Em: I see.
Christine: We're gonna try to focus this week on it and see what happens. Umm... I'm taking...
Em: Are you doing like, are you believing in Santa? I could call and pretend to be Santa and be like...
Christine: Oh my God. Just like bully her.
Em: Only if you go potty...
Christine: This is how trauma happens Em if you just wing it like that, that's how, that's how you create trauma around like anything and everything.
Em: I'm just saying if you need some sort of reinforcement, I can impersonate one of the cops on 'Paw Patrol' and like...
Christine: Oh yeah. I was gonna say, why don't you...
Em: And like congratulate her.
Christine: Can you be MerCat from 'Gabby's Dollhouse,' please? And call...
Em: Sure. I could. Give me five minutes, I'll learn the, I'll learn it, and I'll...
Christine: Okay. I'll be Catrat.
Em: I'll call and go, "I heard that you're doing so good on the potty and I just wanted to tell you, I'm so proud of you."
Christine: You know, I'm sure there are...
Em: And then I'll hang up.
Christine: There are probably like AI things where you can like have it say something. I feel like I would just fuck my kid up with that though. I'm not gonna play those games. But, umm, but yeah, we're gonna try it this week. I don't know. She doesn't really start like a preschool program till the spring, so we have time. But I don't know. She seems interested enough that I'm like, let's give it a shot. But...
Em: Nice.
Christine: It's gonna be one of those weeks where I'm like you know...
Em: Constantly covered in poop and pee.
Christine: Probably. But although Blaise just discovered... Blaise is the one who's on TikTok now as the parent, or like reels I guess, but whatever. Same, you know, you know what I mean. Umm, I've already mocked him for that, so I'll move on. But, umm, he says he found a reel that said, uh, you can put underwear on and a diaper over it, so that like, it is still the set, mimicking the like, oh, you're wearing an underwear. But then it prevents the bigger mess, you know?
Em: Right. Right, right, right.
Christine: So we'll see, we'll see what TikTok hacks we come up with. Umm, why do you drink this week Em, besides my text to you about Leona's toilet training this week?
Em: Bowel movements.
[laughter]
Christine: Yeah, exactly.
Em: Uh, I mean, I drink 'cause we moved, which is like, it's very overwhelming.
Christine: I know. Umm, I'm proud of you.
Em: Thank you. I had a full blown breakdown. A full... I mean, I actually think it was my first ever true nervous breakdown. Umm...
Christine: What? You recovered real quick.
Em: It was... Thank you. No, I had, umm, it, there was a moment in it where I like had like an existential crisis, and I was like, I think I just felt my brain snap. I was like, I think this is it. I was like, I really think I actually had a...
Christine: Oh cool.
Em: Full blown panic attack. I know.
Christine: Tell, tell me more.
Em: Oh man. It, uh, I don't, it was kind of, I think a floodgate. Like at some point, I was crying and I didn't even know why. I was like, like dirty crying. Like messy crying.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah.
Em: Like it was like drunk girl in a bathroom crying.
Christine: Oh no.
Em: Umm...
Christine: Like you lose all your faculties. You're just like, I'm...
Em: Yeah. I was blubbering...
Christine: Swept away.
Em: Blubbering.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And I, and I even at one point, like, I just like shouted from the bathroom 'cause I was in the bathroom trying to, like, this whole house is about as big as, you know, a closet. And so you really can't cry quietly anymore. So...
Christine: Are you in the house right now?
Em: Yeah. So...
Christine: This us the first recording from in the house. It, it's coming from inside the house.
[laughter]
Christine: What if I called you... I, I should say they're coming from inside the house, 'cause I'm growing and learning about pronouns.
Em: Yes. Yes, they do.
Christine: They're coming from inside the house.
Em: Finally, an ally at heart. Thank you.
Christine: Finally. I'm trying.
Em: Umm, no, I, uh, uh, you can't cry quietly anymore. So I was in the bathroom trying to like keep my cool, but...
Christine: Oh no.
Em: It like came out where it was like that sound when you're crying where you're just like...
Christine: That like, that like... Yeah, that... That grunting sound. Yes. Yeah, I know.
[laughter]
Christine: I know it well.
[laughter]
Em: So, so at one point I had to just kind of own it...
Christine: Ah yeah. Then you're like, oh-oh, oh-oh, it's too late now. Yeah.
Em: And I was like, I was like, Allison, I can't stop. I don't know what's going on. I'm just like crying everywhere. And...
Christine: There's always a point of no return for real when you're like in a crying state, you're like, I can either stop this right now...
Em: Uh-huh.
Christine: Or it's too late.
Em: And I can... I can usually stop it. I can usually get it together.
Christine: Same.
Em: This, I, I don't know if it was just a combination of everything. I mean, it was like also my like hormones are outta whack right now. And like, I, I can just feel that like, it's just like the, the perfect storm of like, I think chemically my body's kind of outta whack right now on top of the fact that like, we're moving and I've already said a million things about that. But like, I, I didn't really wanna move. And then the stress of moving the, the, the stress of everything. I think I've just been trying to keep it together for Allison 'cause she's really excited to be here. I'm not. I will eventually, but like, I just have my, the adjustment period that it takes for me to get used to anything is so long. So I know it'll happen eventually, but I don't wanna like spoil things for her. So I'm kind of silently like...
Christine: So you're just in the bathroom.
[laughter]
Em: Grieving. So I'm just in the bathroom crying.
[laughter]
Em: And like, it was just a, a lot of to-dos all at once. And like, we still have things at the apartment we're trying to sell. So it's a lot of going back and forth and like, it's just, I was, I think I just, I, I hit the wall where I was like, this is it, it's time to like have a meltdown about it and then I'll be fine. Umm, but it, there was a moment where I was sad about all that. Then I became angry about that. And, uh, one moment where like, Allison was trying to like console me, I think 'cause she was just next to me and I was vulnerable. I like, I didn't, but part of me wanted to like lash out at her because I was just like angry and wanted to like project it on something.
Em: So then when I felt myself getting angry, my brain just turned into like, I started spiraling and I was like, oh, like, oh, you have, I, I don't know, I just got mad at myself for being mad. And then...
Christine: Shame. Yeah. Then you feel...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Shame about it and then it feels worse.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And then, and then you start thinking, at least I do. Well, other people have it so much worse. Now you're a shithead 'cause you're crying about your own problems. Yeah.
Em: And, and then on top of all that, I had this like really weird, like, it was like such a, the only way I can describe it as like primal. Like I haven't had the feeling since I was a little kid. And like, I just had this moment where I swear to God, I feel like I saw myself in third person. Like, I think I literally...
Christine: Oh dissociated.
Em: Left my body.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: I've never had that before. I think I truly left my body.
Christine: That's fun. Do it all the time.
Em: And, and I just... I just thought like, I, the, it was so, it like, it felt so sad in the moment. I was just like, where's my mom? And like I...
Christine: Aww. Em.
Em: It was so sad. And I realized that I was like, I was like, oh shit. Like I'm in, it was that moment where I was like, I'm just a little guy. Like, I'm just new here.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: I just have a house and I'm on... But like, I feel like I, I didn't actually feel like this, like realistically I didn't feel like this, but I felt the fear of a little kid where I was like, I just, I feel like I made a really big decision and I'm very far away from my mom. And by now, she would've told me that it's time to come home and...
Christine: Oh... And taken over.
Em: She's not... But she's not here.
Christine: She would've taken over. Yeah.
Em: I think that's what it was. I think I, and then that's spiraled into me getting homesick. Oh my God. Every single thing just happened at once. And I think it all just came from me, like kind of wanting to like relinquish power and like have someone else kind of take the rein for a bit.
Christine: Sometimes I feel like it's like your brain, all the file cabinets open at once and are like...
Em: Yes.
Christine: And another thing.
[laughter]
Em: Perfect way to put it, because then I, I had the anger. Like I, I, I got mad at myself getting mad and then in my head, like, I started saying like, you're just like your, you know, insert family relatives here. And I was like, so then that freaked me out. Every single thing that, anyway, 24 hours later, I'm just going to say that I was overwhelmed. Plus having a bit of a, a wonky chemical imbalance day, and it just kind of imploded on myself.
Christine: Well, the important question, I'm sorry to hear that. And umm...
Em: We're better now. It's fine.
Christine: I'm, I'm always here if you need a text or a chat. But also what food did you order afterward is what I want to know.
Em: Chicken pot pie.
Christine: Okay, good.
[laughter]
Christine: I was like I know that's an impor... I know that's gonna...
Em: It's a good important question.
Christine: It's a really good ending. We need to know the end result. Yeah, the food order.
Em: What's your, what's your nervous breakdown food?
Christine: Ooh, ooh. Umm, usually, uh, oh, that's a great question. Uh...
[laughter]
Christine: Again...
Em: Today if you had a nervous breakdown, what would it be?
Christine: Shadow work? No.
[laughter]
Christine: Uh, what food would I order if I had a nervous breakdown today? Sushi. Like $400 worth of sushi.
Em: That's great.
Christine: That tends to be it. Especially because like, I remember when I was pregnant and you couldn't, like, I can't and you're not supposed to eat sushi. And I was like, all I want is to just, every time I had like a crying jag, I was like, I can't even eat sushi. You know...
[laughter]
Christine: And so I think now I've taken that into like my non-pregnant life and been like, wow, anytime you're upset, guess what you can do? Just order $400 worth of sushi. Not really $400, but you know what I mean.
Em: Speaking of, uh, last thing I'll say, because I know it's like we've had hit the mark where it's almost the point of no return.
Christine: I know we hit 12 minutes. We're like, so why do you drink? I was like, oh, we're still doing that.
Em: Sorry, I...
Christine: No, uh listen, I love it. I wanted to hear about your crying Jag.
Em: Umm, last thing I'll say is speaking of like pregnancy, I thought it was something I wanted to, I guess, uh, address 'cause I had to see it. So other people have to know about it. One of the Duggars recently posted that another...
Christine: Oh, I was like where are we going with this? You scared the shit outta me. Okay.
Em: I'm pregnant. That's the chemical imbalance.
Christine: No, I thought you were gonna say there's...
[laughter]
Christine: I thought you were gonna say there was like some comments or something.
Em: No, the uh, one of the Duggars just posted one of their pregnancy cravings, and it's lettuce and like honey mustard, which is fine, but with blueberries.
Christine: Oh, I was like, I could probably get behind whatever you're about to... Nope.
Em: Yeah, that one really rocked my world. So I saw that right before I saw you. Umm, so that is actually also why I drink. So I was like, that can't be real.
Christine: Oh.
Em: Anyway.
Christine: No. Yeah, I don't enjoy that one bit.
Em: And I drink Propel, which I call dessert water, so...
Christine: Oh yeah. That's what I call vitamin water.
Em: Yeah, we're having our dessert waters.
Christine: One... One time in junior year, I used... My mom used to buy these at Costco and then...
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: We would... She would pack them like sometimes in our lunches. And uh, I brought one to school and I was drinking it in the hallway, and we weren't supposed to be like eating or drinking upstairs, you know. And the Dean of Discipline, that was his name, uh, Mr. Von Handorff, the Dean of Discipline said to me, uh...
Em: Mr. Von Handorff?
Christine: Yeah, that's his name. And he said...
Em: Crazy.
Christine: I know. He was also my math teacher. He was very scary. Umm, imagine being called the Dean of Discipline. Anyway, uh, he said, you can't take...
Em: Sounds like he liked it.
[laughter]
Christine: He, he probably did. Uh, I, he was a nice guy, but he's like, no... Oh God, I gave this guy such a hard time. No, he's like, no... Uh, only water above the first floor Schiefer, and he always said that. And uh, I had this friend named Zoltan who was in my, umm, my advisement, like my homeroom and Zoltan, he's from Brazil. And like, we had a love-hate frenemy relationship. I don't know. He was, anyway...
Em: I had one of those.
Christine: Yeah. And I was like, he's my friend. But then sometimes I'm like, you're such a little punk. I don't know. He turned to Mr. Von Handorff and said, that's not, or that is water. And he's like, that's not water Zoltan, that's juice. And Zoltan had this thick accent. He's like, it's vitamin water. And he like screamed it...
[laughter]
Christine: And uh, Mr. Von Handorff was like, get downstairs right now. Anyway, so every time I drink it, I call it vitamin water. And I thank Zoltan for defending me on the second floor.
Em: It was one of those moments that it was a, a friendship. And then the next day, I'm sure you hated each other.
Christine: Oh, but I bullied him so much for saying vitamin water that I think for the next three days he didn't speak to me, so...
Em: That was the enemy part. So it's...
Christine: Well, it, we made fun of him because when we, well 'cause we're, I guess xenophobes, but one time in, uh...
[laughter]
Christine: On Ignition Day before school, you had to go around and we were all meeting each other freshman year. And Renee and I, for some God forsaken reason, they put us in the same homeroom and Zoltan was in our homeroom. And so everyone had to say like, hi, my name is Christine. And I would bring, uh, cookies to the picnic and everyone goes, it gets to Zoltan. And he goes, my name is Zoltan and I am bringing nachos. And Renee and I laughed so hard because like he just didn't get that you're supposed to say a word that starts with the same letter of your name. And he said Zoltan and he was bringing nachos. I think we laugh for like the rest of eternity. Like, no wonder this guy kind of hated me. Umm, anyway, I think of Zoltan every time I drink vitamin water. I promise he doesn't even know who I am anymore. But shout out.
Em: Love it.
[laughter]
Em: I love it. Uh, what would he have brought with a Z though? I'm bringing Zebras. I'm Zoltan and I'm bringing more Zoltans.
Christine: Poor kid. Poor kid, right? And then it's like, oh well, like he's literally new here. He's from a different country. We're already bullying him for being different and having an accent. Like, 'cause we're just assholes I guess. I don't know. We were just, umm, we didn't like truly, we laughed at him, but he laughed a lot.
Em: We get it, we get it, we get it.
Christine: Okay. I just wanna make sure people aren't like, you know, really upset by what I'm saying.
Em: People will, but that's their problem, not yours.
Christine: Yeah, it's not, we were friends over the long run. Uh...
Em: We were friends for people who hated each other. Okay.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So like relax.
Christine: Zebra cakes.
Em: Zebra cakes.
Christine: But he was from Brazil. I'm sure he was like what the fuck is that? So...
[laughter]
Em: You really could've helped him out. You could've been a friend on day one and just shouted it for him if you wanted. But...
Christine: Uh, I could've, but...
Em: Oh, well.
Christine: But I didn't.
[laughter]
Em: Okay. Uh, Christine, let's shift gears into an exorcism.
Christine: Oh! Wait, we don't have to shift very far.
Em: No.
Christine: I was just talking about high school like five seconds ago.
[laughter]
Em: Speaking of the name Zoltan, which I already love...
Christine: What?
Em: In general. Here's uh, another weird name. Umm, and it's probably not weird to others. I've never heard this name before, so to me, uh, the pronunciation might be a little wild. Umm, and it's German, so you're gonna really have to help me out here.
Christine: Oh.
Em: The way that, the way that I see it is Gottlieben.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: Is that a name?
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Is that a, you've heard that before?
Christine: Yeah, that's pretty close. Is it a last name?
Em: No, it's a first name.
Christine: What? Oh...
Em: Okay.
Christine: Gottfried is a name.
Em: No.
Christine: Oh. I guess...
Em: It looks like Gottlieben. Gottlieben. G-O-T...
Christine: Gottlieb. Yeah, yeah. Gottlieben.
Em: Gottlieben.
Christine: Gottlieben.
Em: Okay. Cool. I saw that and I thought, thank God Christine is German because I don't even wanna...
Christine: It's quite a name.
Em: Hear it from people today. I don't, I saw that and I was like...
Christine: And I don't even wanna hear it.
[laughter]
Em: It's like that is a word that nobody can possibly expect me to know how to say. I even, I went on YouTube and uh, they said Gott, Gott, Gottlieben.
Christine: Gottlieben. Yeah.
Em: But someone said, okay.
Christine: You're saying it right.
Em: So I thought I was saying it right. I wanted to double check with you.
Christine: That's quite a, quite a unique name though, I think. I don't think that's a thing that really exists much anymore.
Em: Okay, cool. I didn't know if that was like a common name.
Christine: No. Gottfried is but not Gottlieben.
Em: Do you think...
Christine: I don't think...
Em: You know how like old people names are coming back. Do you think this could come back?
Christine: It could very well be. I've heard a few of my German, like, not cousins, but like acquaintances who have named their kids some really wild, it's almost like imagine the trend in the US with like Ruth and you know, those kind of names. And then...
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Imagine the German old timey, like Gottlieben. The shit I think is coming back in some ways. So I'm like, imagine a baby called Gottlieben. Umm...
Em: What's another like old name in German?
Christine: Oh, Heinrich. No, I don't know. There's a lot that I feel like sound old in Amer... In US context, but maybe, umm, I don't know.
Em: I can't even, you know what's wild? All of a sudden, I can't think of a single German name in my life. I'll never...
Christine: Wolfgang. Herman.
Em: Wolfgang. Someone famous just named their kid Wolfgang. And I was like, is that real?
Christine: Yeah, I feel like that's becoming... Yeah, that's definitely...
Em: I mean it's a... That's a hardcore name. You really have to commit personality wise to a name like that.
Christine: My friend just named their...
Em: You can't just be Wolfgang who like likes to read in peace...
Christine: Who's just like a, a pothead, right? Like you have to like be like intense a little bit. Umm...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Uh, although my friend just named her kid, or like a former friend, acquaintance named her kid Leon Hart or something, or Leon.
Em: Oh wow.
Christine: But like a longer version of that. Like, it's like, and it means like heart of the lion. I, I, there's a...
Em: Okay.
Christine: Lot of crazy names. Umm.
Em: Anyway, well good luck to the heart of the lion. Umm, this is, umm, this is the story of Gottlieben Dittus, D-I, D-I-T-T-U-S. Umm, and so this is in 1838. This is in southwest Germany in Black Forest. Do you know?
Christine: Yeah, that's... My grandma lives by the Black Forest. That's where all the grim fairytales are from.
Em: And the cuckoo clock.
Christine: Yes, correct.
Em: Um, so there's a guy who I'm assuming is Johann, not Johann.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
[laughter]
Christine: Wow. Nailed it.
Em: Thank you. Although I will say, speaking of the Duggars, there is one named Johanna. So, uh, this...
Christine: Oh, good point.
Em: So had to, had to check. Umm, okay, 1838. Johann is 33 years old. He has recently moved to Black Forest in southwest Germany to serve as the new pastor for two different parishes at the same time. One is called Mottlingen and the other is called Halstatt. And, uh, Johann, I never have to say those words again in this story. Thank God. So, umm, Johann was taking over, he was, both of these parishes, but he was taking over for Pastor Barth.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And Pastor Barth, to be honest, was just fucking over his congregations. He was like...
[laughter]
Christine: Both of them. He's like, I'm done with all of you.
Em: He was, he was like, they don't give a shit about the gospel. They barely attend church. When they do, they sleep through it. Like, I'm so fucking tired. I don't like, take them off my hands.
Christine: And it's like 1830s. Like, you gotta, he must have not been a great pastor if these people in the 1830s were bored at church.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: You know?
Em: Yeah. Umm, and what sounds the, I obviously wasn't there, uh, uh, in Mottlingen, uh, in 1838.
[laughter]
Christine: I could have sworn.
[laughter]
Em: But, uh, I will say that it sounds like, like his congregations like actually probably would really would've thrived as we all would if there was like a heartier community. Like if someone had just fostered more support through the church, then maybe there'd be more...
Christine: Just like, not just like lecturing and like, just...
Em: Yeah. It sounds like everyone was lacking fellowship, if you will. So...
Christine: I see. That's powerful Em.
Em: Thank you. Well that's all I have to offer this world is wisdom. So...
[laughter]
Christine: That's it?
Em: Just that. Yeah.
Christine: Aw.
Em: Uh, but okay, so this guy's like, please take them off my hands. They are so tired and I'm tired. They're tired. None of us like each other. Just take them off my hands.
Christine: Mm.
Em: Johann had just left an area called Iptingen. Iptingen. And that was the area's most challenging parish allegedly, like everyone knew that was like the rough and tumble church.
Christine: That's like the seventh graders. Like at a school where it's like all the different grades. Yeah.
Em: And uh apparently while he was there, one of the things he did was that, really well was foster community and he really turned things around there...
Christine: Oh.
Em: And since... Since it was known as like the hardest of the parishes, you know, to restore, he was like, whatever, I'll take your two parishes off your hands...
Christine: Easy. Yeah, yeah.
Em: Easy peasy. So in the one town Mottlingen, there's one parisher... Parisher. Parishioner. Parishioner. What is wrong with me?
Christine: Nothing.
Em: And she is 25-year-old Gottlieben Dittus.
Christine: Oh, this is a girl's name.
Em: Welcome, I'm so glad you're on the ride with me because...
[laughter]
Em: I really thought I was like on my own here.
Christine: Well, do you know what it means? It means God's love.
Em: Okay. It really does to the American eye, look like goblin.
[laughter]
Em: So God's love is interesting.
Christine: I think it probably also looks like goblin to the German eye, but it does mean God's love.
Em: I keep calling her glockenspiel and I know that's wrong.
[laughter]
Christine: That's pretty good.
Em: It's a lot of Ls and Is where I'm not used to them being. So anyway.
Christine: That's funny. I didn't know that was a girl's name. Wow.
Em: We both learned things when we heard the story...
Christine: That's like you know when they have those old names in the US like in the, umm, they were all the... The Quakers or... Not the Quakers. Who were the really... The puritans would name their kids like Constance and like Temperance...
Em: Yeah. I was gonna say like Deference or whatever it is.
Christine: Yes. And shit like that. Like Temperance. I think that is like the same kind of vibe, you know what I mean...
Em: I agree.
Christine: Like people naming your child like a literal word, like...
Em: Yes.
Christine: God's Love and it's like no pressure...
Em: Naming your child Purity, like are you fucking kidding me.
Christine: Right. Exactly. Chastity. All that nonsense. Yeah.
Em: You know, the only family I've ever enjoyed who actually named their kids, things like that, was 'Greenleaf.' May that show rest in piece.
Christine: Oh, I was like, that's not a real family, is it? No. Is that a...
Em: No. It's just...
Christine: It's a fictional show.
Em: Just one of, just one of my church stories, one of my...
Christine: That's the Oprah one right?
Em: Oh, I love that show. Uh, okay, so yeah, so one of the parishioners of one of these parishes, he's just gone to, to clean up, is 25-year-old Gottlieben Dittus. And again, correct me if I'm saying that wrong. So she was very dedicated to her faith. She was probably the only one there who actually...
Christine: She had to be with a name like that.
Em: Gave a shit about going to church.
Christine: Yeah, I mean...
Em: Exactly.
Christine: Like literally the path was set for her.
Em: She was a bit of the teacher's pet when it came to Pastor Barth, he was like, I fucking hate all of my congregations, but this girl knows the Lord.
Christine: Interesting.
Em: But Johann kind of hated her. Umm and it was especially because she was very disrespectful to him, my guess is that she... If she was Pastor Barth's favorite and then Pastor Barth left, she had some sort of like guard up with this new guy...
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: But uh I guess it showed very well because she had a bit of a 'tude any time Johann was around, she would look away when he'd speak to her, she would unfold her hands when he prayed.
Christine: Oh wow.
Em: It was kinda just like a... You don't even go here situation.
Christine: Yeah. Okay. So she's like already like over it.
Em: Yeah, so they kind of also have a bit of a Christine-Zoltan relationship where...
Christine: Oh good. Everyone should. It's really fun.
[laughter]
Em: Except neither of them are bringing nachos 'cause it's 1838 in Germany.
Christine: Ugh, that's so tragic. That's the most tragic part.
Em: So they avoid each other most of the time, but when they needed to be around each other, they were fine, I guess, especially because uh something Gottlieben was going through, is that she had a lot of... What'd you say earlier? Invisible illnesses.
Christine: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: She, uh in hindsight, probably actually had like some sort of tick disorder or she had epilepsy, uh but at the time, they were saying that she just had a sickness that may or may not be supernatural-related.
Christine: I see, okay.
Em: And so when she had to interact with him during moments of illness or moments of weakness, they got along fine because he would go over and pray at the house. He would do house calls basically for her.
Christine: Oh okay, okay.
Em: And pray over her to get better, but umm she had signs of a nervous disorder, that's what they called it at the time, so she could just have had anxiety like the rest of us, umm but she also suffered from either incredibly intense panic attacks or seizures. We are not really sure. Umm she had difficulty walking due to one leg being shorter than the other, and she also had issues with her kidneys at one point, she's just kinda sick all the time. Umm and as for all these illnesses, the local doctor couldn't really treat her because he didn't actually know what was wrong, he just kind of, like you said, just generally put fits and that was it.
Christine: Yeah, right.
Em: I don't know how anyone survived back then.
Christine: I don't either. I always think about that. I'm impressed any time like somebody gets better in one of these stories, 'cause I'm like, if I got sick for I mean a second, I'd be dead probably back then. Like I don't, the constitution couldn't handle it.
Em: Yeah. If, if Doc Brown came here with the DeLorean and said, "We're gonna go back to the 1800s," which by the way, was the plot to 'Back To The Future III.'
Christine: Oh.
Em: If I were Marty, I would have been like, that's actually really not a good idea. I'll die by 40.
Christine: Like... I know, can I get a tetanus shot first, like I know I'm gonna step on a nail, I'm gonna be the person who just cannot get it together in the 18... I can't get it together now, okay.
Em: You know, one of my uh ancestors, he actually literally died from stepping on a nail.
Christine: See!
Em: Yeah. It happens.
Christine: It happens!
Em: It happens.
Christine: You should not have told my OCD that. My OCD is like cool, thanking that as another way to go out.
Em: I will say it was, it was like in the '30s or something.
Christine: Yeah, and I mean tetanus is a very scary thing.
Em: And it was a nail from like a dirty butcher shop, so...
Christine: Oh!
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Wow, that got real dark and upsetting.
Em: And he didn't have shoes on, so it's like a whole thing, uhh so it was his fault, kind of.
Christine: Well...
Em: You know what I mean? Okay, let's move on quickly before anyone...
Christine: One could say he walked right into it.
Em: One could and one has... And her name's Christine.
Christine: And I probably shouldn't. So anyway, go ahead.
[laughter]
Em: What's he gonna... He's already gone. He's okay. He's fine. He uh... Yeah, he's fine. So, where are we on this girl being sick? Oh yeah, so the doctor just keeps saying fits and he suspects it's supernatural and Johann does not like this thinking, he's like, hang on a second, like just 'cause someone's fucking sick like, okay, ally, just because someone's sick does not mean it's supernatural, let's keep going to doctors, let's keep getting her tested, let's see if there's a diagnosis at some point, let's just not vaguely decide that this is like God's will...
Christine: Like the devil's involved or something, yeah.
Em: Exactly. So uh, at this moment, I'm like, alright, Johann, that's what's up.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: So uh two-ish years later, Johann's nicely settled into working at these parishes and Gottlieben... Gottlieben.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Em: Gottlieben. Gottlieben. Gottlie... Gottlieben.
Christine: Gottlieben. No, no, no. Gottlieben.
Em: Okay. So uhh, Gottlieben is, uh this is two years into Johann being here, and after he's defended her that she should go get more testing from doctors, uh so now that's 1840 and Gottlieben and her four siblings are all moving into a first floor apartment together, which like, and she was... She's like 27. You must be really close with your siblings if all five you wanna still live together.
Christine: Yeah, I mean, maybe they had to.
Em: Maybe they had to. So uh they... And they were a tight group, they lost their parents when they were younger, so I think they'd just take care of each other.
Christine: Aww. Yeah.
Em: And the oldest was her brother Andreas, and he definitely took care of her when she was sick, he might have also taken care of their brother Hans, there was one story I saw, uh and the source said that he had like severe low vision problems and so...
Christine: Oh.
Em: But then I didn't see that anywhere else, so I don't know if that's true. Umm anyway, so Andreas is taking care of Gottlieben quite often, as well as the rest of the siblings, and all five of them move in together, and they all move in, and on the first night, they're praying at the dinner table, and I guess this is the beginning of the spooky stuff, it must have been the apartment that was haunted, because on their first prayer in the house, Gottlieben faints.
Christine: Oh no.
Em: And part of me is thinking they were probably like, oh, there she goes, she's just having an episode or something and she'll be fine.
Christine: Her humors are out of whack once again.
Em: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine: Get the leeches.
Em: Uh, yeah, they're probably thinking like, oh, she just fainted and this is part of her illness, but immediately after she passes out in hindsight, in paranormal speak, she's probably... They probably used whatever energy she had left in her while she's already really weak. Umm, immediately after she passes out, her siblings start hearing banging and shuffling sounds from every single room of the house all at the same time, and it's so loud that the neighbors complain.
Christine: Woah, okay.
Em: And then she wakes up and she's like, "What happened?" And they're like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
Christine: Like pass the mashed potatos. Like, wait a minute girl.
Em: Yeah. Uh so later on she also, now that she's woken up from her episode, she now starts seeing strange lights and strange shadows throughout the house.
Christine: Oh no.
Em: Apparently, her body is also moving as if someone else has control of it, so it's already kind of feeling like a possession story. It started with her hands, and I think it slowly kind of extended to the rest of her body that she just didn't feel like she was in control of them anymore, and at night, one of the apparitions that she... Well, she saw a lot of shadows throughout the day, but there was one apparition she would see at night, and it was this woman at the foot of her bed, holding a dead child...
Christine: Gasp. Oh...
Em: And the woman would say two things to her, she would say, I just want to find rest, so just wants peace.
Christine: Oh no.
Em: And then she would also ask for paper, and she would say, if you give me paper, I won't come back.
Christine: What?
Em: Apparently, they must have just never had fucking paper in this house...
Christine: I guess.
Em: Because the apparition shows up all the time for years, like you never thought to just grab some paper from like a store...
Christine: I mean maybe she did. Maybe it didn't work.
Em: Yeah, I wonder...
Christine: I bet you paper was fucking expensive in the 1830s, if you were just like a, a peasant. I don't know, not a peasant...
Em: Oh yeah.
Christine: You know what I mean?
Em: In my mind, I'm like...
Christine: A regular citizen.
Em: You couldn't steal a napkin from a coffee shop or something.
Christine: What? What planet...
Em: Maybe it was expensive.
Christine: Did these people live on in 1830s where there's coffee shops, I feel like this is...
Em: A coffee mule who walks around...
Christine: Coffee mule.
Em: House to house and brings them coffee. I don't know.
Christine: Yeah, why doesn't she just take one of the thousands of napkins that are just sitting at the Starbucks down the street.
Em: Why doesn't she take a mass-produced napkin before any factory has ever been built?
Christine: Doesn't she know they make Kleenex that can fit in your pocket nowadays? Sheesh.
Em: Okay, I'm sorry, you're right. You're right, you're right. Umm so anyway, I guess she just doesn't have paper at her disposal ever. Umm so while dealing with this apparition who's showing up every single night, the neighbors are still complaining about the sounds throughout the house. It's happening all the time, and soon the complaints from the neighbors spill over to the parish, 'cause everyone goes to the same parish.
Christine: Oh sure.
Em: And now the rumors of these strange things at the Dittus' house are very well known, and because it's a religious group spreading these rumors, it very quickly turns into they must be using dark magic, and that is the source of the activity in their home. Very soon, they're also alleging that Gottlieben is practicing magic and she's inviting in evil, and of course it leads to... That must be why she has disabilities.
Christine: Hmm. Ding, ding, ding.
Em: Because she is wicked.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Maybe the only person at this point who would have been helpful is Pastor Johann because he was the first person to reject early on...
Christine: He like advocated for her a little bit.
Em: That this was supernatural.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But he's not really in the picture anymore, 'cause even though he runs the parish, he doesn't have a relationship with them anymore, 'cause the last time he went over to the house to pray over her when she was sick, Gottlieben was so filthy nasty with him, like so mean, that he was like fuck this, like you're on your own.
Christine: Seriously? Wow.
Em: She like really was leaning into her nasty attitude that day.
Christine: Woah.
Em: And he was like, I'm so out of here, like you can pray yourself. He was like bye.
Christine: Brat girl summer, am I right?
[laughter]
Em: So two years into this incessant haunting, all these knockings, the neighbors are still complaining, two years in, why are the neighbors still there? If it's that annoying, leave, but then again, I had roaches for like five years.
Christine: I was gonna say, okay, you're one to talk my friend. And you know, they also had roaches, right, because it's the 1830s and they didn't have, so you can imagine.
Em: And no paper.
Christine: And no paper.
[laughter]
Em: So two years into the incessant hauntings, they don't have a relationship with uh, with Johann anymore, but they're desperate for somebody to listen to them, and so they go to Johann and they say, I know my sister was like kind of like having a bitchy day, but like I need you to come back like right now. Umm so he decides he's gonna go over to their house, he already is in the mindset, that like this is not a ghost, umm this is just like they've tricked themselves into thinking some thing is here because they've been talking about this for so long, like this must be all in their head. Plus, keep in mind, this was around the time that spiritualism started up, and he was like, they just must be on the trend with all the kids.
Christine: Yeah, it's just the new fad. Sure.
Em: So they asked Johann to talk to the apparition for them. They're like, "Can you go in the bedroom when the apparition shows up and can you tell her to go away, please? Or can you give her some fucking paper?"
Christine: Yeah, please.
Em: And uh Johann instead goes, umm if there's a ghost, nobody should be talking to it, let's start there.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Kind of good advice, but it also feels like he's slowly backing out of having to deal with the fact that there might be a ghost.
Christine: It's like too little too late. You know? They've already opened that door, it's too late. You gotta step in now and help.
Em: Yeah, but he's going in thinking there are no ghosts, so like maybe he's not the person for this job.
Christine: Very good point. Very good point.
Em: So instead, he suggests, I love this, 'cause he was like, I think he didn't know what else to do and he was like, tell Gottlieben that she should have a sleepover with a friend, and then she can just go be distracted with her friend and not think about the ghost and she won't be so scared.
Christine: Oh.
Em: That was like his...
Christine: A slumber party.
Em: Best option.
Christine: A prescription...
Em: Yes.
Christine: Slumber party.
Em: So they have a slumber party and guess what? Like the opposite happens, I'm sure he was like, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what I meant.
Christine: Yeah, I'm sure a bunch of girls in a room who are staying up late and trying to scare each other are not gonna conjure a fucking apparition, like of all things, this is the...
Em: Literally. They go ghost hunting. They literally decide we're going to go look for the ghost.
Christine: Exactly. Like what... I mean, nowadays, we all know what teenage girls are doing at sleepovers and it's ghost hunting, but I guess back then they didn't know.
Em: They decide that they're gonna go ghost hunting and find the source of the banging noise, and honestly, it probably started, it's his own fault to begin with, I'm assuming. She probably started by complaining about him being like, yeah, he doesn't even fucking believe me, and then the friend was like, well, we'll show them, we'll find the ghost.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah.
Em: So in the process, they actually find this weird light shimmering underneath a floor board. Some of the sources say a board above the door, some of them say in the floor, there's a board somewhere and there's light behind it, so they open up the board, they find paper.
Christine: No.
Em: And it's covered in writing that's smeared with either soot or ink and it's too hard to read.
Christine: Wait a minute, so maybe she has been trying to give the apparition paper, but it's like not that paper.
Em: She's like, if you just move your fucking bed, I'll tear up my own...
Christine: Right?
Em: Floorboard and grab the paper. Can you get out of my way.
Christine: Yeah, not... Don't throw... If you throw one more wadded up napkin at me, little girl, I swear to God, that is not the kind of paper I'm asking for.
Em: Do you hear that?
Christine: What was that?
Em: I don't know, it's a new house, I couldn't tell you.
Christine: Cool. Fun.
Em: It happened again. Oh Allison's running the garbage disposal, which is...
Christine: See, soon we're gonna all learn together about these sounds.
Em: Five feet away from me. Umm.
[laughter]
Em: Okay, so they find this, they find paper and it's too hard to read, but they find that in three crowns... And by crowns, I mean coins, not the thing on your head, 'cause I thought that's what I meant.
Christine: Okay.
Em: That's what I assumed, and I was like, why crowns? That's crazy. Umm so three coins. Weirdly, after finding these items, the activity ended for two weeks in this house, and you know, Johann thought that his sleepover idea was the thing that did it.
Christine: Oh my God, of course he did. Classic.
Em: He was like, genius, I saved them all. But that was only for two weeks and immediately after that, the banging starts again, but this time, it's much more frequent and much louder and much worse, and the neighbors hate the family.
Christine: Oh no.
Em: And the siblings are also now finding these coins everywhere...
Christine: Oh.
Em: And hard to read paper, they're finding it everywhere, so why don't you just hand that to her the next time she shows up? I don't understand.
Christine: Yeah, I think that's probably what she wants.
Em: But she kept showing up and she'd be like, just give me some paper and they like wouldn't even think to hand that paper to her, so... Not clear thinkers, not direct...
Christine: I guess not.
Em: A to B thinkers, I don't think over here.
Christine: Thinking outside the box, you know what I mean? Out of the box.
[laughter]
Christine: Oh we're so stupid, this show is so stupid.
Em: They uh also now, at this point they are also starting to see weird things like umm... How do I say this? Oh, they know they're gonna find the coins again, or the paper again, if there's a weird thing that happens with the light. Umm like if something, if something with any sort of light source happens that day and it's unexplainable, they know they're gonna find the coins and the paper again. So like if the stove starts flickering by itself and no one was using the stove, then they know oh we're gonna probably find some coins later today. It was just kind of an indicator that something was around.
Christine: I see. Okay, it's like a precursor.
Em: Yeah. Umm another doctor comes to stay at the house and I'm like, to ghost hunt, like at this point, no one's doing house calls for her illness, nobody knows what's going on with her, but he shows up and he confirms the banging is going on throughout the night. Locals are starting to circle around the house each day to witness the banging themselves, 'cause they can hear it from outside the house, it's so loud.
Christine: Jesus.
Em: And uh one night, Johann even sets up in the night where he gets to witness it himself, 'cause he didn't believe it either. He was like, I thought there really was no ghost and the sleepover dixed it. What's going on? So he shows up to hear the banging. He brings the mayor. Okay, dramatic. And he also brings six city councilmen, I don't know why, I don't know if it was to look important, but all of them go over and hear the banging themselves. They actually report that the banging they witnessed so strong that furniture jumped, windows shook and dust fell from the ceiling.
Christine: Damn.
Em: So it's not even like that previous story I told you about the loud knocking, what was the girl like hitting her chest or whatever.
Christine: Right like the hollow of her chest. Yeah.
Em: Yeah, so it's not that. I mean, the dust is not shaking from the ceilings.
Christine: Right. It's like actually moving things.
Em: And she's like really sick, like she's not strong enough to do this.
Christine: Right.
Em: So umm, I mean, that's my take on it, but... So neighbors in the area, uh they start comparing the sound to fire crackers, they're like, this thing... This is fucking loud. They're bothering you. I don't know why they didn't have them, like I could see some annoying Karen neighbor send them something like a cease and desist for being so obnoxious...
Christine: Yeah, yeah like an HOA, that's probably when they invented the HOA for this very reason.
[laughter]
Em: Umm so... What was I gonna say? Johann, the mayor, and the six city councilmen, they all decide that they're gonna go investigating too, they look around, they find nothing, it's giving ghost adventures.
Christine: Oh! Shots fired.
[laughter]
Em: Ooh. And they heard sounds that range from those really loud bangs all the way to really light tappings as if someone was moving their fingers around. At 1:00 AM in the morning, Gottlieben says that she heard shuffling, which usually happens right before the apparition appears.
Christine: Oh boy.
Em: So imagine you're Zach and Aaron and the mayor, and you want to see a ghost in real time, and she literally tells you, I heard the sound that warns me that she's coming.
Christine: Here she comes.
Em: You're about to see an apparition. Guess what Johann does? He goes, "Well, if the ghost is gonna show up, then a bunch of people freaking out wouldn't be very helpful, so we're gonna leave."
Christine: What?
Em: Like, okay, just say you're a baby and walk away.
Christine: He's a chicken shit. Come on.
Em: He clearly... He's like, I'm not interested in this ghost shit. I don't wanna do it.
Christine: He's like really denial in every sense of the way, in every sense of the word.
Em: Apparently he never sees anything, he literally leaves and nobody sees a damn thing. Why didn't any of those councilmen go, "I'm kinda curious."
Christine: Uhh, yeah, I would have been like, yeah, I'll meet up with you. I forgot my scarf.
[laughter]
Em: Right. Umm so he left. He left all... He brought all of his buddies with him, and he did arrange a place for Gottlieben to, to be on her own, 'cause they thought that the house wasn't safe for her.
Christine: Okay.
Em: So... And she had to like basically move out of the house. She was gone until further notice, not the other siblings, which I think is interesting, it's like if the house is really haunted, then fuck you guys, but maybe he thought that it was feeding off of her because she was sick.
Christine: Yeah, especially if she's the one seeing the apparition and knows when it's coming and all that.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So I guess he was thinking like, if I pull her out of the game, then...
Christine: Right.
Em: Everyone's safe. So uh Gottlieben left that night for other accommodations, but her brother Hans later said that the knocking continued for the rest of the night as if...
Christine: Oh.
Em: It was mad that she left. Umm and after he confirmed activity was still in the house, everyone started reaching out to Johann as if he's their fucking tour manager.
Christine: Poor Johann.
[laughter]
Em: And they were begging him to give them access to the Dittus' house while the siblings are still living there, they're just like, hey, can you like get me in too.
Christine: Let me in to their house? What the hell?
Em: It's like, I heard you got the mayor in. Could you let me in too...
Christine: Oh come on.
Em: So I could see the ghost, which like barking up the wrong tree, you're talking to the person who will leave when the ghosts show up.
Christine: Right. Yeah, he doesn't want to be involved. Wrong guy.
Em: So he would refuse, he was like, I'm not bringing you to another person's house.
Christine: That's probably for the best.
Em: During this time though, it would have been a moot point anyway, because when Gottlieben left after that night, wherever she was, activity would follow her.
Christine: Oh.
Em: So they really needed to be calling her.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And at the same time, she's now having seizures, honestly, so intense that doctors are at a loss for words. Umm...
Christine: Oh no.
Em: She's like really going through it. And of course, those who thought that her seizures were connected to hauntings, criticized Johann for neglecting his pastoral duties by not trying to pray harder for her.
Christine: Oh no. So now it's like he can't win, 'cause he's like, listen, I'm advocating for you, 'cause I don't think this is like the devil, but then everyone's like, well, you're being a bad pastor because you're not praying enough.
Em: And also like shaming the person with like severe epilepsy isn't...
Christine: Exactly.
Em: Isn't enough. You're not gonna go blame other people 'cause they're not trying hard enough to save her. Okay.
Christine: That's wild.
Em: Like if you're gonna be mad at someone, blame like science for not figuring out like treatment yet, like I don't know if you wanna be mad at someone, it's not this random person who's already kind of praying.
Christine: The leeches haven't done their work well enough either, so they can also be part of the problem.
Em: Blame... Blame anyone, I guess. But like you're barking up the tree every time. So anyway, after that home visit where he was, he witnessed all the bangings and the ceiling was shaking, all this... That was around the time where he started to question himself, because originally he was such an advocate for like, this is not supernatural, this girl's really sick and needs help, but when he saw all this paranormal shit in the house, it really did rattle him and it made him start doubting that maybe it was connected to something supernatural. Now, obviously, two things can be true at the same time, and like something supernatural could have been going on and she could have been sick.
Christine: Right.
Em: I mean we've seen that, that was... Was it at 'The Conjuring' house, it was one of them where the kid is really, he's going through chemo treatments...
Christine: Yes. Yes.
Em: And the ghosts are like feeding off of him, umm so it's possible that you can just be sick and there can be ghosts, but he conflated the two. So still amidst the criticism, he is still being told, oh, if you really think this could be supernatural, you should be praying more, and if you really think it's supernatural, you can heal her, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Christine: Hmm.
Em: And even then, Johann is like, woah, I literally can only pray over her, I'm doing all that I can, I'm not trained in exorcisms, this is not on me.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So umm he's like, I'm doing my job best I can.
Christine: And he's young too right? He's like in his 30s...
Em: Yeah, he's like our age.
Christine: He's like a senior citizen back then, I guess, but like...
[laughter]
Christine: And he's not much older than she is, right? She's like in her 20s, and he's like...
Em: Yes.
Christine: 30 something. Okay.
Em: Well, so one day he's visiting her and she has a seizure, and he decides that he's finally going to intervene and really cast God upon the spirits inside of her.
Christine: I mean I guess in his mind too like in his defense, not that he needs a defense, but like in his defense, he's probably standing there like, I mean, praying won't hurt, right?
Em: Right.
Christine: Even if she's just sick, I can still pray.
Em: Yeah, especially back then. I don't... And maybe, honestly, based on how she was raised with a... There's so much nuance we don't know, maybe she was also begging for him to pray over her. Like maybe...
Christine: I mean they pray at dinner, I'm sure they were welcome to pray in the house. Yeah.
Em: Her name is God's love. Come on.
Christine: Oh right, true. Very good point.
[laughter]
Em: So he starts shouting into her ear, put your hands together and pray. Uh we have seen enough of what the devil can do. Now let's see what the Lord Jesus can do.
Christine: That sounds like the opening to the...
Em: Apparently, those were his words.
Christine: Gottlieben DJ. Put your hands together and pray.
Em: Gottlieben...
[vocalization]
Em: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em: Uh and of, and of course uh as he's praying over her, her seizure ends, which seizures end eventually...
Christine: They do.
Em: But I guess it happened at the right time, and this gave... They gave him another ego boost. Like first the sleepover, and now this, I think he thinks he's a genius at this point. At this moment, he decides that it's up to him to work with God and save Gottlieben, and uh he stayed all night praying during each seizure, which like if you're seizing multiple times a day...
Christine: That's really scary.
Em: You truly need a doctor.
Christine: That's really scary. I don't know what they did for seizures back then though.
Em: I don't know if they did anything. Maybe this was what they did.
Christine: I was gonna say they prayed, I guess.
Em: So in the next few days, when she tried to get out of bed, she started having behavioral change where she would run at him and try to hurt him...
Christine: Oh-oh.
Em: But she was also too weak 'cause she'd been having multiple seizures for days. Days and days.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So she was too weak to do anything, but she was showing aggression towards him, which I think he read as like, if it's a possession, it's the spirits acting up and not her probably saying like, just get away and let me go to bed. Like I'm so tired. Umm but she also continued to hear tapping wherever she was living at the time, 'cause she was still not at home. She was still...
Christine: Oh she's not at home. Right.
Em: But she's still hearing tapping. Sometimes, uh it would seem as if someone punched her in the chest 'cause she would get knocked backwards for no reason. Soon, she saw the apparition again, and now, she's seeing the woman in places where it's not even the house that the spirit is from.
Christine: Oh right.
Em: And, and now the apparition is talking to her and...
Christine: Oh boy.
Em: The apparition tells her, I'm a widow who died two years ago, and Johann was my pastor and visited me before I passed away.
Christine: What?
Em: Mutuals.
Christine: Oh wow. It's like Hinge.
[laughter]
Em: So in her final days, apparently, she told Johann that she yearned for peace, but she didn't think she would ever have it, and so Johann quoted a hymn to her that said, "Peace, the highest of all good," and she wrote it down for herself on a piece of paper.
[chuckle]
Em: And so she's apparently still just trying to get back this fucking piece of paper that represents peace to her, so she can just go fly away and be in the afterlife.
Christine: Oh.
Em: That's the whole... That's why she keeps asking for a fucking paper 'cause that...
Christine: Has she not heard of a Post-it note? Come on.
Em: I think that's what she had left in the floor board. I think it was the Post-it note where that had the hymn on it, and she was just like...
Christine: Oh.
Em: Can you just give me that fucking paper back and I'll leave, I swear. I just...
Christine: I don't care, you can crumple it up and toss it, just give it to me.
Em: You know what's also funny is like if she is able to tell you the story and what the hymn said, why do you need it written down?
Christine: That's what I don't understand. It's like, you know the quote.
Em: That's like oh, I need that Post-it note with the phone number 867-5309 on it...
Christine: Yeah, exactly.
Em: It's like you know the number.
Christine: How can I go to heaven without it? I ask myself that every day.
[laughter]
Em: So uhh... So she's the apparition. She says, I have it on a piece of paper. And this does, so this does line up with, umm, with the original story that she was seeing a woman who appeared two years ago, which would've been right after she died. And they just moved into the apartment so she could have been the last woman to live there. Uh, although it'd be interesting that Johann never mentioned that, of like, oh, I've been here before.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And a woman died here.
Christine: But he was also trying everything he could to like, explain away what was going on. So maybe he was like, shit, I don't even, and then when they said, oh, the app... And then when they said the apparition is coming, he was probably like, I don't wanna see that 'cause I know who it is. You know?
Em: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great Point.
Christine: And he's like, I don't want anyone to see it.
Em: That's a great point. Hmm. Maybe there's something darker here about Mr. Johann.
Christine: Oh my God, Johann. What a brooding, tall, dark, and... Oh, sorry. No, that was just in my head.
Em: Oh. Oh.
Christine: Johann with a name like that.
Em: Yo ho. Yo ho. So, uh, now that, uh, now that Gottliebin is speaking with this woman, that's when they think that things really took a dark turn because it must have opened up some sort of ability where she can speak to all spirits and all spirits can speak through her.
Christine: Oh, no.
Em: So now spirits are using her as a mouthpiece during her convulsions.
Christine: Oh, No.
Em: Which, if we're playing skeptic, I can't figure that one out. But it's, so that makes it even creepier to me.
Christine: I mean I, it sounds a lot like she's having...
Em: Something.
Christine: Several mental health crises/epi... You know, and I was thinking about the epilepsy as well, and like photo sensitivity. And if she's seeing flashing lights before...
Em: You're totally right.
Christine: Her "fits" it kind of is like an interesting.
Em: Oh my God. You're totally right.
Christine: I told you I watched that episode of Gullah Gullah Island Doctor Doctor's office, like 40,000 times when I was little.
Em: And it might, as you might as well have just, just become a doctor that day.
Christine: I'm waiting for my certificate, but it still have not arrived. Umm.
Em: Well.
Christine: Anyway, just a thought.
Em: Okay. Noted. If I, if it's in my mail, I'll let you know. Umm.
Christine: Oh, I meant just a thought about the photo sensitivity, but also just a thought about my, my medical degree being lost in the mail. I'd like you to think on both of those. Thank You.
Em: I'm thinking really, really good about both of them. So she's now, uh, speaking well during her com or during her convulsions, but each voice has different pitches and accents. Sometimes they are in other languages.
Christine: That's freaky.
Em: I hate that. I hate that.
Christine: That weirds me out.
Em: Umm, and one of the voices is allegedly this woman that she kept seeing at the foot of her bed, and she is now speaking through Gottliebin, but tells Johann, well, I couldn't find peace and I don't know what to do. Johann tells her that you need to pray. And she said that she couldn't originally, or that, or that she can't actually pray now because she's with Satan 'cause she's in hell. Because while she was alive, allegedly, she killed two kids. What? That's a...
Christine: She, she killed what? Sorry? You froze for like the worst time.
Em: Two, two kids.
Christine: What?
Em: That's the, apparently outta nowhere she's throwing in that plot twist where she's like, well, I apparently killed two kids and I buried them in a field.
Christine: Johann was like, man, I thought you were out of the picture. This was too complicated when you were alive. Now you're back.
Em: Look, sometimes if you love mess enough, you'll stay for the mess, you know?
Christine: You know what I think? And you'll stay and create more of it, it sounds like. Yeah.
Em: And I've always said that. So.
Christine: You have. [laughter]
Em: So she's like now confessing all these things and why she is with Satan, and why she can't pray for herself, and why she can't be released into the afterlife. So Johann offers to pray on her behalf so that she can at, you know, either go to the afterlife or do whatever requires her getting away from Gottliebin's body because she's taken away her energy. And she eventually says, okay, like, do what you need to do. I don't wanna be here anyway. Like, I don't wanna be in Gottliebin's body. I, this is just the only way I know how to talk to you. Umm.
Christine: Harsh.
Em: Which yeah, would hurt my feelings for sure.
Christine: Yeah. A little bit.
Em: For weeks demons are continuing... She's calling them demons now, not just spirits. Demons are continuing to speak through Gottliebin, and they're claiming that they are forbidden from harming Johann. But that being said, they would attack other people. They wouldn't attack Johann, I guess because he is a godly man.
Christine: Oh, Right. He is like a man of the cloth.
Em: But yeah. But they would also hurt other people, including Gottliebin. Like, they.
Christine: I love how she always attacks him though. When she's like, lucid. She's like, I'm gonna punch the shit outta you, even though the demons won't let me.
Em: No matter what, at any point, someone is not safe.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Everybody's a target.
Em: So there are some nights where like even her aunt would come to visit and spend the night, and she would like watch bruises and burns appear on Gottliebin's neck.
Christine: Oh Geez.
Em: And the next morning, Gottliebin would say like, well, I had a dream last night that fire hot hands were choking me.
Christine: Oh, great.
Em: And so, like, they're clearly hurting her from the inside out now.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Umm, and they're capable of doing that. Also there's bruises all over Gottliebin because, umm, she's constantly tripping, but people are also alleging that she's getting shoved. Umm, then in July, there's like a weird lull in activity, which fools everyone into thinking that everything's fading away. And then a month later Gottliebin tells Johann, actually, I have a new symptom I've been hiding from everybody. And every Wednesday and Friday my breasts bleed so much that I think I'm going to die.
Christine: What?
Em: I got nothing.
Christine: Oh, no.
Em: Johann says that this is apparently something he had heard through like fringe religious fanatics who say that that's part of demonic possession, which I don't need to have heard it from a fringe religious fanatic. That sounds not normal certainly. Umm.
Christine: I mean, listen, has it happened to me? Yeah. When I was breastfeeding and crying through the night, and I was maybe possessed at that point in my life, but like...
Em: You had a baby biting on them. Yeah.
Christine: Exactly.
Em: Maybe.
Christine: Like that. Maybe in that context, but not like so much I thought I would die, you know?
Em: Well, he quickly, uh, I think that like, made him kind of have what I had yesterday. Like his brain just decided to unplug itself.
Christine: Oh, no, it snapped. [chuckle]
Em: Because he immediately hears that and thinks you must be practicing witchcraft and like, like this... I think that was his way at the time of saying like, you've gotta be fucking kidding me. Like, I don't even know what to do with that information.
Christine: Like I'm out.
Em: And I think he just spiraled. I think he spiraled. He was like, you must be doing witchcraft or some shit 'cause that's crazy. Like, I don't fucking know.
Christine: Tell a 30-year-old man nowadays that your boobs are bleeding so bad. I mean, and they'd...
Em: Oh yeah.
Christine: Look at you like horrified. Right. So I can't imagine the 1830s this young woman comes to like a man of God who's like a pastor and is very like traditional and talks about her breasts bleeding. He probably did have an actual conniption about it.
Em: He probably, I truly think he was just like, you sound crazy. I don't know how else to put it. You sound crazy.
Christine: He probably doesn't want anything to do with it. If it's like...
Em: No.
Christine: Her breasts are bleeding. He's probably like, I'm outie.
Em: Uh, so he basically doesn't know what to do except continue to pray for her again, 'cause he's like, I, I got nothing. And one day the demons decided they're going to talk through her to Johann. And remember last time when it hurt our feelings as if we were her, when one of the demons said, I don't wanna be here fucking anyway...
Christine: Yes.
Em: Like, just get me outta here.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Apparently now all of the demons are talking through her to Johann begging for them to be released from her body.
Christine: No.
Em: Which Like, I feel like if I ever let a demon into my body and like kind of cruise control my life for a little bit, and then they were like, even I need off this fucking ride. I'd be like, okay.
Christine: I'd be like, can you write me a doctor's note, please? So everyone believes me.
Em: That validates all of my feelings.
Christine: It does.
Em: But also it hurts my feelings does because I'm still here.
Christine: It's like, yeah but I don't have that option.
Em: Yeah, exactly. Like, I hope, I hope you have a good time leaving.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Like, I'm, I love that Hell would be better than this. Umm.
Christine: Must be nice.
Em: Umm, so at first when he hears this request of like, please release us, he ignores them because he thinks this must be them tricking him into opening up a door to something worse.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine: You don't wanna do what the demon commands.
Em: He just spiralled that she is practicing witchcraft. And of course now they're asking him to do devil work or, you know, what he's claiming is devil work. But the, the woman that, umm Gottliebin kept seeing even shows up and tells Johann, they're not tricking you. We are just, we don't have anywhere to go. We're stuck here. Because when we were, umm, when we were alive, we were sinners. And now we're with Satan. And please pray on our behalf and please help us so we can abandon Satan and find Jesus and go to heaven. It this feels like it's meant for, like, this is one of those like horror Bible school stories. Like.
Christine: Yeah, like when they would make us watch, yeah, these kinda movies.
Em: It feels like some sort of story that they, that they tell about like, oh, well, it's because they were dirty sinners and now they just are praying for God's goodness, and then they will go to heaven. Something like that. It just feels a little too on the nose.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Umm, but I don't know, I guess this is his version of that. And so she steps up and talks through Gottliebin to Johann and says, please help all of us. We were all sinners, and we, we want to abandon Satan. We wanna go to heaven. So she asks if they can move into his house. The, the spirits.
Christine: This guy cannot get a break.
Em: And he quickly refuses. He goes...
Christine: Thank God.
Em: I don't know about that. Umm, I like how she...
Christine: He has some boundaries. That's good.
Em: I like how he thought it was a trick. And then one of them comes up and goes, it's not a trick. Can we move into your house though? Just.
Christine: But we'd like to be added to the lease. Yeah. This is, we're deadly serious actually.
Em: So he finds a beautiful little loophole to totally, uh, relinquish any accountability where he says, no, you can't come in into my house. And then she counters with, well, could we stay in your church? Could we stay in the church? And he says, if Jesus permits it, as in...
Christine: Oh, Oh, I love that pass the responsibility. Yep.
Em: It's like, it is like, that's not on me. But if you think you can even get...
Christine: That's on the big guy.
Em: If you can even get into church since you're hell bound. Sure. I guess you can, if Jesus permits it. So a second spirit asks if they could move into his house, uh, and he goes, no, literally no, you can't move in. Then another one. And eventually he starts to think that this might be a test of faith. And so he actually says, you can move into my house if Jesus permits it. And he was like, Jesus, I'm really banking you fucking say no. Please say no. Please say no.
Christine: You're, you're my bouncer. Please, please. Guard the door.
Em: Yeah, yeah. So apparently Jesus did not permit it. And so, uh, the spirit was like, okay, well, can I live in your garden? And...
Christine: What The fuck? This is the neediest fucking spirit of all time. Get the picture.
Em: It's like, I thought you wanted to go to heaven. Why do you wanna be in my fucking dirty garden?
Christine: Yeah. It's cold out there.
Em: Well, he said, if Jesus permits it, and apparently Jesus did permit that one. So there is at least one spirit living in his garden.
Christine: Just like living in his tool shed, cool.
Em: So basically, once he mastered this tactic, he released many spirits this way by saying if Jesus permits it, and I guess Jesus permitted a few of them, but not all of them and he thought...
Christine: He signed off on some of the moves, transitions. Okay.
Em: Yeah. I think he was also playing, you know, he was operating under the assumption that God would only allow spirits with good intentions to...
Christine: Right.
Em: Be relieved anyway. And so not only was he skirting responsibility, but also it was like a safeguard or like a firewall.
Christine: It's like foolproof, right? Yeah. It's like, oh, only if God permits it.
Em: It's like, if you're good, you can, but that's not on me to decide.
Christine: Yeah. Love that.
Em: So then one day, I guess now there's less... Now at this point because there, somebody had been relinquished from her body or released from her body. Now there's few left, but only bad ones. Right? So now the only things possessing Gottliebin...
Christine: Oh, right 'cause Jesus won't let them out. Right. Okay. Okay. Uh, oh.
Em: So now the only spirits possessing Gottliebin's body are not so good.
Christine: Oh no, girl.
Em: And one day during a thunderstorm, she's having an episode where she's coming in and out of consciousness over and over again. But every single time that she is not fully conscious they're taking over her body looking for a way to end her life.
Christine: Oh, no.
Em: And I think the thought process of these demons is like, well, if Jesus won't let us out, then we'll let ourselves out by... You know what I mean?
Christine: That is freaky dude.
Em: So every time she kind of falls out of consciousness, then all of a sudden, this is where it really feels like a Bible story. Like all of a sudden, God during a storm, he's crashed a wave of thunder.
Christine: His almighty power. Yeah.
Em: Because she would go out of consciousness, and then there'd be a flash of lightning and a roll of thunder. And then she would realize she was about to, she was like seconds away from killing herself in some new way, and then she'd fall out of consciousness. She'd wake up to a crash of thunder and she'd be trying to kill herself in a new way. So it really also feels like a Bible story that way of like, God kept saving her by a...
Christine: It's a parable.
Em: A split second. Yeah. Is that what it is? What it's called?
Christine: I was just thinking of what the word would be. Yeah. Like a parable of like, this is like, it has a message behind it about God's, about faith in God. But also I'm just thinking again, with the lightning and the photosensitivity seizures, you know what I mean?
Em: Yeah. Oh, you're totally right. Umm, but anyway, so yeah one time she tried to jump out of a window. One time, one time she tried to hang herself, but like, but when the, when she woke up, she realized that she had like tied a noose and she didn't even know how to tie knots apparently. So that freaked her out.
Christine: What the fuck?
Em: That she, she didn't know how to do that. And yet she was able to do it when she wasn't fully conscious.
Christine: I don't like that.
Em: Christmas Eve rolls around.
Christine: Oh, Good.
Em: Again, feels a little too biblical. Biblical for me.
Christine: It does.
Em: But this is 1843, so she's been dealing with this for three years.
Christine: Shit.
Em: And Merry Christmas, two more of her siblings become possessed.
Christine: What?
Em: One is Hans and one is Katarina.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And Johann, I can't imagine the eye roll when he got the phone call, he was like, oh my God. Like, are you fucking kidding me? I can't tolerate this. So he... Tell me how fucking annoyed you would be if you were Gottliebin, first of all, that your siblings get names like Hans and Katarina, Gottliebin.
Christine: Right. Right. Actually, you know, when I first heard of Hans and Andreas, I was like, oh, why do the boys get the normal names? And Katerina I'm like, wait a minute. She's the only one with a kind of wacka dude name.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: As, as far as I know. I mean, maybe I'm...
Em: As far as American names go, at least.
Christine: I as gonna say maybe I'm wrong and I just never heard it. But I, I don't feel like that's a common one.
Em: Well, so, so on top of that, how annoyed would you be if you've been dealing with this for three years, you're so fucking sick. You are literally, literally catching yourself trying to like, end your own life.
Christine: Ugh.
Em: And you have, and people have been around the clock trying to help you. And literally you had to leave your house. You had to uproot everything. So get this, her brother becomes possessed. And after one session of prayer, he's fine.
Christine: What?
Em: Wouldn't you just want to rattle yourself to the... I would.
Christine: I cannot.
Em: I would literally scream, I wouldn't know what to do.
Christine: It's like, oh, I took an Advil and I'm all better. What?
Em: I know. I would...
Christine: It's like, that is unacceptable.
Em: All I would do is cry.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Umm, and soon after, weirdly, actually after that one prayer, it must have been the best fucking prayer of his life. Because after Hans was healed from this possession, Gottliebin actually also was strangely peaceful, so, he, it's like Johann could never do it. And all of a sudden two birds, one stone.
Christine: Yeah. It's like, wow. Uh, just waiting for the right victim or patient, I guess. Or parishioner.
Em: It feels like the, the end of some superhero movie where he has been practicing this one superpower the whole time.
Christine: Oh yeah. And then the big game comes around.
Em: And then he does it like on in that miracle moment. Umm, Katerina on the other hand, it did not work on her. I guess all three of them weren't in the room at the same time or something, I don't know. But that, that prayer was only powerful enough for two of them. And she was not one of them. So she was, uh, still possessed after this prayer. And she said it, she wasn't possessed by just any rando dead body. She was possessed by an angel of Satan.
Christine: She's like, I'll do you one better.
Em: She's like, my turn bitch.
Christine: Big sister. Yeah.
Em: Let me take the torch.
Christine: You get all the cool names. Well watch this.
Em: She's Like, you've had three years of attention. My turn.
Christine: My turn.
Em: So, umm, she was allegedly possessed by the angel of Satan.
Christine: Sure.
Em: And she started babbling. She also spoke in languages she didn't know how to speak. She also tried hurting herself. It's almost like this was an episode of Charmed and like all of their like demons like Freaky Friday'ed or something.
Christine: Yeah. It's Like, it's like, what? You know how you say like, cast out the demons? What if they were cast out and went to her sister?
Em: Yes. Right.
Christine: Like how the pig, how the demons went into the pigs and they jumped off the cliff.
Em: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's like they just found a new vessel.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Umm, but so she also tried to hurt herself. And this feels a little, I know this is like, like this would be a serious topic and like, but I'm imagining it kind of like in some sort of Scooby-Doo episode of like, she would try to hurt herself, uh, but then others would stop her. And then when they stopped her, she would run after them. So then they would run away. And it just feels like the cartoons are chasing each other throughout the halls.
Christine: Up and down all the stairs. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. So, umm, but apparently this went on for four days, her possession. And it was also literally around the clock. They would try to stop her from hurting herself, but then the second that that happened, she would just chase after them. And then they'd tag...
Christine: Oh geez.
Em: They would tag team. And like, it was, I just imagined it was just like the relay race.
Christine: Chaos.
Em: The relay race of like a century. So the difference between her and Gottliebin though, is that Gottliebin was chronically ill and incredibly weak. But Katerina was strong, so she was fucking them up, like, she.
Christine: Oh, no, I hadn't thought of that.
Em: Like they, she was actually chasing them around the house, and she was, if they stopped her from doing what she wanted to do, she would turn on them. And so that being said, in moments of clarity, she would cry and say she couldn't control herself. She didn't know what was going on. And when the demon would speak through her, it would say, I'm not one of them easy spirits that can just be cast away like the others. If you really want me gone, God better do his worst.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: So it was like a challenge to like Johann, of everything you did up until now, that was child's child's play.
Christine: Yes. I see.
Em: Umm, so basically it was like a massive threat of like, I'm here to stay and it's gonna be worse than you could have ever imagined. The possession though, only lasts four days. On the final night, it was at 2:00 in the morning when Katerina is howling so loud that everyone in the neighborhood could hear her. She arched her back and repeatedly screamed Jesus is the victor in a voice that was completely inhuman. Umm, but after that, her body relaxed and the demons seemed to leave and the demons did not return to the Dittus household after that. And Gottliebin...
Christine: Oh my God. That was it.
Em: That was it. Like, it was just like one for the drama, you know? It was like, I'll be the last one to stay.
Christine: Remember that weird summer we all had a couple years ago? Can you imagine being the neighbors?
Em: It was that one holiday break. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. Like remember when when everybody got like that weird food poisoning and everyone just like went a little nuts that one summer, you know, it feels like such a fever dream.
Em: Uh, I can't imagine like all of them, you know, they have a photo album and they just kind of quickly skim over a few of the pages.
Christine: Oh yeah. That one's really short. They're like, we didn't.
Em: We don't talk about that era.
Christine: We don't like to remember that time.
Em: We didn't take a lot of pictures then. Umm. In the following months, Katerina did also suffer some seizures, but they over time stopped on their own. But it is interesting that if we're like, pretending that it's like a Freaky Friday situation or like if the spirits just transferred themselves to a different vessel, I wonder if they took some of like Gottliebin's issues with them. Like, like there was like maybe some residue and that's why she ended up also having seizures after this. Like, you know what I mean? I don't know how to describe it.
Christine: Oh. Yeah.
Em: It's, but it, it's interesting that all of a sudden she now had some of Gottliebin's symptoms.
Christine: Interesting. I mean, it could also be...
Em: I don't know what that means.
Christine: Genetic, like maybe they had a genetic seizure disorder in the family and she was growing older, the younger sister and started...
Em: That's true.
Christine: Exhibiting Symptoms.
Em: But it sounds like... That's true. It sounds like she... Oh, I see what you're saying. Like, maybe she hit the age that Gottliebin was once at and now.
Christine: Yeah. Like the seizures started and maybe like.
Em: I see.
Christine: It kind of escalate. I don't, I mean, I don't know. I don't know.
Em: Or they both have, like, they both also would've hit the same age range when like mental illness starts to present. So it could have been that too. Yeah. Umm, anyway, I don't know what it means. It was just interesting timing and it sounded like she had never dealt with a seizure before. So they really jotted that one down. And as for...
Christine: On some paper.
Em: On, on fucking paper, finally, all of a sudden they got reams and reams. So.
Christine: Wow. It's like they can jot everything down all of a sudden.
Em: So as for, uh, Gottliebin, the, uh, Johann wrote that she... Oh yeah. Yikes. As for her, Johann wrote later on that after she was re, you know, relieved of all these spirits, her disabilities totally vanished. And including the limb difference in her legs, her leg just grew.
Christine: I don't believe that.
Em: I know. Yeah. So that one's pretty damaging. Umm, but she later on in life worked for Johann and nannied his kids.
Christine: Oh, wow.
Em: She managed the church with him and she became well loved and respected in the parish for her work, specifically with disabled people. And, umm.
Christine: Oh my gosh.
Em: And, uh, and children with disabilities. And I, I do wanna mention that I'm worried that that means she was encouraged to tell them to also pray for their illnesses to vanish.
Christine: Oh yeah. Yeah. True point.
Em: Umm, because it happened to me, you know, I don't, I don't know what happened there, but...
Christine: Hopefully, hopefully it was, yeah. Hopefully it was more in the vein of like, oh, don't worry. Just 'cause you're different, it doesn't mean you're...
Em: Yeah. Hopefully it was in like an actually endearing.
Christine: Possessed by Satan.
Em: Advocacy thing. Yeah. Umm, but the entire ordeal, which Johann referred to as 'The fight', love that. Umm. He, it actually, the irony of it all is that he showed up in this town because he was supposed to foster community and get people excited about church again. And then he came in right at the time that he was performing constant near exorcisms. Umm.
Christine: He's like, No, no, me, no, I don't... Okay. All right. I'll step in.
Em: As all the cameras flash before him. Yeah. Oh no.
Christine: Sorry.
Em: My acceptance speech. I don't know her.
Christine: Oh, who me.
Em: Uh, so he actually ended up restoring quite a lot of enthusiasm for church and community because everyone was probably scared out of their fucking minds.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And, uh, and church officials asked Johann to write a report of the fight, which he did. And he titled it an account of Gottliebin Dittus's illness. And the church didn't actually keep the report private. It kind of spread like wildfire. So different versions were getting made very quickly. New copies were getting made with different additions and Johann didn't even keep his own copy of the report, which is so, umm, that's so humble of him. He's so brave.
Christine: Wow. He probably lost it just like the other one 'cause they didn't have post-it notes yet.
Em: Well, they never had, they never know what to do with fucking paper. He probably just threw it away.
Christine: Yeah. They don't even understand what it is practically.
Em: So he wrote a new version 'cause he lost his first version. He's like, I guess I literally, 'cause there weren't fucking save files.
Christine: Xerox machines.
Em: There weren't External hard drives back then so he was like, I guess I have to rewrite it if I went to reread it. Umm, so he wrote a new version. He only made a hundred copies of it. All of them have gone missing since.
Christine: What?
Em: And so the only version we have left of this story is one of Johann's friends published a biography about him in 1880 and in the biography he mentions the exorcism of the Dittus siblings and the exorcism is considered... Umm, oh, it, sorry. And from that section of the biography is what we know about the exorcism. So whatever...
Christine: Oh. Wow.
Em: Whatever got put into that book is what we know. And then maybe some like whatever's gotten spread throughout the years, but there's no official report anywhere anymore.
Christine: Oh man. I wanna find the original one. His story of it.
Em: You would think that the church would care the most about that one because what makes this exorcism interesting is that it's one of the only historical accounts of an exorcism where the only tool they used was prayer.
Christine: Oh, great point.
Em: There was no rituals, there was no like chanting. There was no holy water. It was just the power of prayer.
Christine: Right.
Em: So you would think a church would really wanna know all the ins and outs of that one. But in the final four day, uh, climax of the three year possession, Johann wrote that the events were so traumatic that even if someone were to have asked him about it, he wouldn't have remembered most of it.
Christine: Oh.
Em: And he also admits that he never once in any version or any copy, or even in the biography, he never documented or wrote down certain parts of the possession that were so bothersome to him.
Christine: Oh, wow.
Em: And he was afraid that they would be sensationalized even more than they already were.
Christine: Interesting. That's like more intriguing than anything.
Em: I know. So because of that, we, we don't know what the information is, but we know that we've, there will never be, and there never has been a true fully documented account of it's probably the most violent or more extreme moments of those possessions.
Christine: Right 'cause even if we somehow found a copy it, he didn't include it. Wow.
Em: Yeah. So the world will never know. And that's the exorcism of Gottliebin Dittus.
Christine: That's the wildest thing. I can't believe I've never heard of that before. Umm.
Em: I know I didn't.
Christine: With a name, a name like that.
Em: I know. Well, I've, and I feel like I've looked up so many like exorcism stories and I, when I look at a listicle, I'm like, oh, I get, I've done that. I've done that.
Christine: Covered all these. Yeah.
Em: Sometimes a, a new one sneaks in.
Christine: Wow. You know, I think it's always interesting to see like the, umm, seizure disorders coming up in these Possession "stories". It's like an interesting thoughts.
Em: It always seems to be seizures, doesn't it? It's... The poor community, poor epilepsy community. Like...
Christine: I know it's like, it's, it's a little bit disheartening. But I guess back then, yeah, there was no.
Em: I get that there was no, uh, other, there was no other real, you couldn't Google it. Like doctors didn't know what was going on. There was, it was a very religious time. Like, I get how the environment around you would create, you must have thought you knew what the answers were. But like.
Christine: And watching someone have a seizure is a very scary thing. You know what I mean?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Especially if you don't understand what it is. And esp, and I imagine I don't have this experience. I imagine not knowing what a seizure is and having one yourself would be also incredibly scary. So.
Em: The only time I've ever seen someone have a seizure, thank God it was with someone who also has seizures. So they like knew what to do. I was like...
Christine: Not my story. I don't even, I really, I had this, oh God, let's, we'll talk about it another day off camera, but I have a friend who, umm... Hmm. We'll get there.
Em: I I have one friend who has, umm, epilepsy and somehow in our, I mean, we've known each other since childhood. Somehow I have missed every single seizure. I've never seen it. So.
Christine: Really?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I always...
Em: Everyone else has.
Christine: Happened to be the person in line when the person in front of me had a seizure. It happened, like, probably 16 times.
Em: That happened to me at Bush Gardens. Yeah. What's going on there? Interesting.
Christine: I don't know. Umm.
Em: But, umm, but it was like in a crowd and I was really young. I like wasn't, I didn't even know until I heard later.
Christine: Oh. I always caught them and I had to hold. They'd be like, hold their armpits. Hold their armpits. It happened to me all, all the time. I think the reason is because alphabetically, I was probably like right behind that person when we did any sort of like, activity or public thing. But I...
Em: I see.
Christine: There were like multiple times where I was just like, ha like holding. And they were like, hold them, hold her under the armpits. And I was like, I'm trying.
Em: So you were just very familiar with her armpits. You were just like, uh.
Christine: I was.
Em: Girl, I got you. Me and your armpits. We know each other pretty well these days.
Christine: Yeah. You sit right here. Just in case.
Em: Hey, don't worry. If there's ever a trust fall exercise, you know that we're gonna team up.
Christine: I know. Yeah. It was, it was scary. I, I remember being like, the first time it happened, I was so afraid 'cause I like didn't know what was going on, you know?
Em: Mm-Hmm. Yeah.
Christine: Umm, anyway, okay. So let's get into my story this week. Umm, this is a doozy. It's one of those stories that's like very, umm, widespread, but I really didn't know much about it. It's the disappearance of Molly Bish.
Em: Molly Bish.
Christine: And yeah, it, it, it's one of those that always rang a bell but then didn't quite hit home. And... Okay. It gets, there's some weird, like, there's some weird synchronicities and things in this story that are like, mind boggling. So let's get into it. So I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Molly Bish and umm, just listen for the weird facts, like the, the synchronicities.
Em: Easy.
Christine: Stuff. Yeah. So we're in June of 2000, and Molly is 16 years old. She has worked all winter toward her dream job, which is becoming a lifeguard. And she had always wanted to be a lifeguard at Comins Pond, which is a wooded recreation area at a small, man-made pond just outside of Warren, Massachusetts.
Christine: So for three years, Molly's older brother John had been the lifeguard at, at Comins Pond, and she was like itching to take over. So when she turned 16 in 2000 she was finally ready to be the lifeguard. It's like one of those teen jobs that you know are, are made for some kids.
Em: Never, never was for me, but I know what you're saying.
Christine: Certainly not me either. I...
Em: No.
Christine: Really not built for that kind of a gig. Umm.
Em: No.
Christine: But for what it's worth, Molly was like very, very dedicated to this, even as a 16-year-old. So, Warren, Massachusetts, it was a small town, or it is a small town. It's 70 miles outside of Boston at the time was home to just 4,700 people. And Molly's father, John was a probation officer. Her mother, Magi was an elementary school teacher. Umm, her older sister described them as like very middle class. Umm, and just like very happy little family. John had grown up in Warren. And when he and Magi got married and wanted to raise children, they decided to move from Detroit back to, and this is kind of some dark irony back to Warren, because it was such a small safe town. And he said, you know, if we're gonna raise kids, we wanna go somewhere like safe and quiet and not the busy streets of Detroit, you know?
Em: Right.
Christine: And so they moved to Warren where he grew up looking for that kind of idyllic, like small town life. And they, they did have it for a while. Umm, Molly grew up extremely close with both of her siblings. She had, uh, this brother I mentioned, John, and her sister's name is Heather. And they were very, very close. Umm, you know, they were, they did everything together. The family themselves were very well liked and respected, very classic middle class family on the East coast. Molly and John both played soccer. They often went to each other's games just to support their other sibling. And Molly was the baby of the family. She was very outgoing, very kind. Umm, and she made the honor roll every semester, was popular at school, was very athletic.
Christine: She was on the high school soccer, softball, and basketball teams. Umm, and she was very determined. And so when she decided I wanna take over from my brother at Comins Pond as the summer lifeguard, she was like, I'm gonna do it. And I just wanna point out too, that this is a lake, it's not a pool. Right. And so it's a different kind of training for lifeguarding.
Em: Right. It's also fun fact, not a pond. It's a lake.
Christine: I guess, I guess it may be is a pond, technically 'cause it is called Comins Pond. I don't know the difference between a pond and a lake. I, I probably mis...
Em: Well, don't you worry.
Christine: I probably misspoke, I...
Em: Pond versus a Lake.
Christine: Thank God I have my, uh, my AI here to help me look it up.
Em: Ponds are shallower than lakes.
Christine: I mean, I feel like we all know that.
Em: I feel like that's, that's the only difference.
Christine: It's not helpful. Okay.
Em: They're typically smaller than lakes, but are, there are no exact guidelines. Some are smaller. Okay. They're smaller. The end.
Christine: Well, I'm looking up Comins Pond and it is a pond. Okay, cool. So. Okay. That was easy. Umm, it is a pond. I'm sorry, I called it a lake. Uh, I am clearly mistaken. So anyway, the point is it's dark, murky water. Right. Even though it's manmade, it has animals, you know, it's, it's in nature, it's murky, it's dark. It's not like the classic chlorine filled pool we maybe picture.
Em: Sure.
Christine: And it requires a pretty serious, you know, responsibility, especially for a teenager, if you're watching kids in a pond, you know, it requires quite a bit of...
Em: I've never understood that as a, when you're like a teenager and your whole thing is, I wanna be a lifeguard, it's like, you want to save lives. I don't think so.
Christine: That's exactly it.
Em: You just wanna look cute in a high chair.
Christine: You just wanna sit all the way up there in your bikini.
Em: It's like...
Christine: That's what I always said. I know that's mean, but I was always...
Em: But it's true. It's like you just wanna sit in that really cool chair. I get it. But at the same time, like, and as an adult, I'm like, why are all lifeguards teenagers? Like, I understand that like the pay...
Christine: Children. They're other children.
Em: Yeah. It's like, I, a little old baby's gonna save me. Oh my God, I'm so scared. A high schooler, the people who think I look weird, they're gonna save me.
Christine: Okay. But think about this, when was the last time any adult around you took a CPR course? And when was the last time a lifeguard took a CPR course, even at age 17? Like, they are required to practice all that.
Em: That's a great point. That's a good point.
Christine: I would trust a lifeguard who's just learned CPR, even if they're 16 over just like some rando, you know? Umm.
Em: And also, you know what, when you're 16, you take your job so seriously 'cause it's like your first one.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So maybe you're onto something there.
Christine: And, and like, maybe there's an element... Yeah, of like, oh, I have to step up for this, you know, and, and you know, kids are kind of like, oh, they'll just jump right in and act fast, you know? I don't know. I think, I think.
Em: They are on their toes a lot of the time.
Christine: Right? Yeah. So, you know. Anyway, so point being, she was very determined to become a lifeguard at the pond. And like I said, there's dangers to a pond versus a pool. And so she had to prepare for the role. She had to study basically all winter to like prep for this role. Umm, and John taught her the operational side of things, which required using a radio. And essentially what you would do is every morning the lifeguard would drive to the police station, pick up a radio and take it with them to their job. Because this was like 2000, umm, even though some people did have cell phones, most kids didn't, or most teenagers didn't. And this area didn't have good cell service anyway. So if you were gonna be working at the lake as a lifeguard, you were picking up a radio on the way in from the police station, which you then dropped off at the end of the day.
Christine: So you had direct access if you needed to call for an ambulance or EMTs, something like that. So I give you all that to tell you about a really bad day in late June. Umm, it was finally time for Molly to take over. And she had worked seven days so far at the pond. And this was her eighth day at work. It was June 27th. And that morning, Magi, her mother woke Molly up with some terrible news. Apparently a girl on Molly's soccer team was riding her bike to work that morning and was hit by a car and was in critical condition in the hospital.
Em: Oh, shit.
Christine: Yeah. And Molly was very, as far as her sister has explained... Oh, by the way, umm, Sarah Turney did such a good episode on, uh, about this case, and interviewed Heather, the older sister.
Em: Oh, wow.
Christine: And like, really did an awesome job. So if you wanna hear Heather, you know, describing this for herself, listen to Voices for Justice. Umm, anyway, so she, Heather describes Molly as very empathetic and sensitive. And so when she found out her friend was in the hospital, she just, it really, she took it really hard, you know? Umm, and so her mom was trying, her mom had even like, climbed into bed to tell her, because she was like, this is gonna be really hard for her to hear.
Christine: And so her mom said, you know, we can call the day off. We can call work off. It's okay. They'll understand. We can go to the hospital and check on your friend if you wanna visit. And she said, no, no, no. You know, this job, I take this seriously. She wanted to go into work despite her friend being in this critical condition said, I'll visit her later. I should do my job. And that's the kind of girl she was. She was just like very, umm, responsible, you know? And so she focused, she said, today's the first day of swimming lessons at the pond. So all these families and kids are gonna be there. I'm gonna need to be in charge, and I can't be calling off work.
Em: Right.
Christine: So Molly was learning to drive. So her mom says, all right, fine. You know, if we're not gonna go to the hospital and you wanna go to work, I understand, I'll drive you. Because Molly was still learning to drive, and she had a learner's permit, but she, so she could drive. But her mom, an adult had to be in the car.
Em: She's so rattled from the... Is she like so rattled from her friend being in the hospital that she like doesn't wanna drive? Or does this matter?
Christine: No, no. She drives, she drives, sorry.
Em: She does drive. Okay.
Christine: She drives with her mom because she has a learner's permit. So she has to have a grownup in the car, like she hasn't.
Em: Gotcha.
Christine: She, she basically drives to the pond with her mom in the passenger seat. Then the mom takes their car back, essentially, is what it sounds like. Umm, because, you know, remember those days of you wanted to practice driving whenever you could. Umm, so what they did was, uh, her mom rode along beside her, they stopped to buy bottles of water on the way and then to the police station to pick up Molly's radio. So at 10:00 AM Magi left Molly at the pond for her shift and drove away in the car. And only a few minutes later, parents began arriving for the children's swim lessons. And there was no lifeguard on duty.
Em: Uh oh.
Christine: They look around, they, they don't see her anywhere. The pond is empty, just surrounded by the woods. On the beach they see Molly's lifeguard chair open as if someone had just been sitting there. And her sandals, her flip flops are on the ground next to the chair.
Em: Oh, wow. Okay. So she did make it to the beach.
Christine: Yes.
Em: She made it there. She's already set up at her site. So she left her chair to maybe go to the bathroom or something. And that's what we know.
Christine: We know that she is not at the chair. Yep. And her sandals, her flip flops are at the chair. Her lifeguard whistle is wrapped around the arm of the chair, and her first aid kit is also next to the chair open, as if she had been using it.
Em: Oh, shit.
Christine: To find supplies or looking through it, or trying to utilize it in some way. And like I said, her mom drove the car home, so it's not like she hopped in the car real quick, you know, to, to run out.
Em: Right.
Christine: And according to her sister and, uh, multiple other family reports, she hated being barefoot, like outside. Like, she was just one of those people that like, couldn't handle it. And her sister was like, the second I saw those flip flops, I felt sick to my stomach. Like, there is no way she would've just...
Em: Oh, no.
Christine: Peaced out barefoot for, for, for just like a casual jaunt, you know? And, umm, thinking like, oh, maybe she went to the hospital to visit her friend, but it's like, not in a bikini with flip, with no shoes on. Like, that's just not anything she would've done. So even if technically it's like, yeah, she could have wandered off. Sure. But her family says, no way in hell would she have wandered into the woods barefoot. Like, that's just not a thing.
Em: Totally makes sense.
Christine: So yeah, essentially that's what they saw. And like, you know, it, looking back, of course, hindsight is 2020, but all the parents, like, they don't panic. They just think, and they don't know Mo... Like she's only been working there for like seven days. And so they're kind of like, well, she's just a teenager. She just blew off her shift like she's...
Em: I, I wouldn't have thought anything of it. I would've been like, oh, she's...
Christine: Right like she's ditching work. That's what you think. It's a teenager, you're like, whatever. And I honestly, I imagine that must be hard because to grapple with after, 'cause I feel like as a parent I'd be kind of pissed. I'd be like, I'm bringing my kids here, and you can't even have a lifeguard on duty. You know? And it's like, I, I imagine I'd be like pissed off at this teenager. And then finding out later, uh-oh, you know, that's not quite what happened.
Christine: So they reached out to, so basically the mom took over and, uh, ran the swim class. Right. And was like, I'll, don't worry, I'll handle it. But afterwards, Molly was still not back. So they reach out to Molly's boss, Ed Fett and he's at the park, and they tell him there's no lifeguard on duty here. And, you know, they're thinking she's probably just, she's new at this job. She probably just is over it. She went off to visit friends and didn't tell anyone.
Christine: And so at 11:44 AM, and remember at 10:00 AM is when she arrived for work, and her mom left, and a few minutes later, swim classes started. So now it's 11:44 AM. Ed, her boss uses a lifeguard radio to report Molly missing to the local police department. Not in like a super alarmed way, but just like, Hey, she's not answering and she's not at the pond.
Em: Okay.
Christine: And the police were like, okay, yeah, she just skipped work. Come on. Like, she's just running around with her friends.
Em: Everyone thinks she's just blowing it off so far.
Christine: Exactly. Because she's a teenager. And she has a new boyfriend that she's been dating a few months who lives in the area named Steve. And maybe she ran over to his house. And, you know, they thought, okay, well maybe in like, maybe a kinder approach. Uh, you know, she had that kind of traumatic morning. Maybe she was overcome by like, the stress of her friend being in critical condition.
Em: She could just be having a panic attack in the bathroom.
Christine: Exactly.
Em: Like I did yesterday. We've all been there.
Christine: Yeah. We've been there. Umm, and so they thought, okay, maybe she visited with friends at the hospital, you know, and so the police are kind of like, eh, it's not a big deal. The, the parents are kind of like, eh... The parents at the pool are like, it's kind of not a big deal. And so, just to give you an idea why I'm telling you all this, her parents still don't know that she's not at work.
Em: Oh, no.
Christine: You see, so the parents contact the boss, or not her parents, the parents at the pool or the lake I'm sorry. Pond. Goddammit. The parents at the pond contact the Molly's boss, say she's not here, there's no lifeguard here. He contacts the police and says, Hey, she has your radio, but she's not at the pond. And the police are like, I'm sure it's fine. And that's kind of the end of the road for, for this moment. So they're kind of like waiting around. They're like, she'll, she'll show up.
Em: She'll appear.
Christine: She'll appear literally. She'll appear. But hours go by. And at 1:00 PM three hours after Molly's shift started, and one hour since Ed contacted authorities, finally the police chief calls Molly's mom, Magi. And says, Hey, where's Molly? Which not the phone call you wanna be getting as a parent from the chief of police?
Em: No. At least at, at the very least, she knows, Well, I dropped her off. It's not like she's in a car wreck or something, but.
Christine: Oh, true point. Yeah.
Em: You, you like, you hope that like, oh, maybe she like saw her friends at the pond and she just kind of wandered away to talk to them.
Christine: Yeah. One of the theories was like, even though she was so responsible, maybe the friends were just like, come on, come with us. Skip work. You know, but...
Em: A classic teen movie.
Christine: Exactly. You know, bad influences, that kind of thing. But so finally at 1:00 PM and this is three hours, so Magi's just been running, living her life for three hours, not realizing that her daughter is just fucking vanished. And so they could call and say, where's Molly? And she says, well, she's working at the pond. She's lifeguarding today. And he says, umm, no, she's not. And she in fact has not been there for three hours.
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: And Magi's like, what? So she calls Molly's sister, Heather, her older sister, and immediately Heather and Magi are like, something is wrong. This is not... Like she was insistent on going to work today, despite her friend being in the hospital, she's very responsible. She would never leave her shoes at the chair. All this stuff, you know, they just know, they know something's wrong.
Christine: Magi insists to the police again and again, Molly would never abandon her lifeguard post, this is not normal. Something bad has happened, but they're just kind of brushing it off. So Heather takes matters... This is her older sister into her own hands. And, but I think at this point, umm, she said she was 23 when her sister vanished, and her brother was 19. So just to give you an idea, and Molly was 16.
Christine: So Heather goes and starts knocking on doors of Molly's friend's houses, and every time someone answers, they say, oh, we haven't seen her. Nope. She's not here. She goes to, uh, Molly's boyfriend Steve, who literally just woke up when she comes and knocks on the door. And he's like, I have also not seen her. So Heather takes Steve, the boyfriend, and they drive back to Comins Pond to meet Magi and the police. And when Heather sees Molly's shoes and her belongings on the beach, she goes, Magi goes into complete panic.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Umm, it, it really like upset the family because going barefoot again in a bathing suit to the hospital to visit your friend is just not a thing that would've happened. So finally, with the kind of distress that they're seeing, the police are like, oh, shit, okay, maybe something is wrong. And they suggest a tragic possibility that perhaps Molly has drowned in the lake.
Em: Oh, I hadn't even thought about that.
Christine: I know. And so, you know, Magi said, no way in hell, she's a strong swimmer. But, you know, I mean, it's a fair thing to look into because even skilled swimmers can feel confident. And then with nobody around in a, in a pond, you know, that has dark water, it has shifting banks, it has debris, you know, things like that. It could have incapacitated in her in some way. And so their theory is maybe she drowned, and her parents are like, you know, I don't think so. Umm, and, but the police are like, well, this seems like a viable possibility.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So the Warren Police Department calls in the Massachusetts State Police, and the beach just gets swarmed with local state police from different departments. Warren Fire Department, and Molly's brother John also arrived on scene, and this is really sad. He ran onto the scene, dove into the water, and was looking for Molly, knowing, as he described later, that if he found her, she would be dead, but looking through the pond for her. And he only stopped when they physically had to restrain him from going back in the water because he was just, until, you know, his lungs gave out essentially.
Em: I, I can't imagine. I can't imagine.
Christine: Was, trying to find her, imagine and being the older brother, you know, he was just desperate to find her. And so they had to hold him back so that they could conduct an actual, you know, professional search. And so the police deployed divers and boats to systematically search the pond for Molly's body. But Heather and John, they were like, there's no way she's in the water. She's, she's too strong a swimmer. So the search continued after dark, they looked through the woods surrounding the pond through all the water, and there was no sign of Heather, I'm sorry, there was no sign of Molly. And Heather said she was waiting for someone to just walk out of the woods, like holding Molly's hand and saying, you know, oh, found her. And just like that relief, they were just waiting for that. Umm, and for the terror to be gone. But eventually it got too dark. The search party was forced to abandon the search until morning, and the family was left without any answers. Umm, so there was a main trail from the beach that went to the woods, but it also forked to another path that led into a cemetery.
Em: Oh, wow.
Christine: And when they're looking at this scene, they're thinking, okay, you know, know Molly's very strong. She's athletic. She wouldn't be the type to go quickly or quietly unless she was somehow either threatened or incapacitated. So one of the theories was that perhaps the family kind of was trying to theorize what happened. Perhaps someone approached Molly faking an injury, and that's why she had opened the First aid kit.
Em: Oh, like a, like a Ted Bundy thing.
Christine: Exactly. And almost... Right. Let her guard down. And the moment she was, you know, distracted looking through her supply kit, her first aid kit for supplies, that maybe that's when they attacked and overpowered her. Umm, another thought is like, if somebody has a gun, like they're not that hard to convince you to come with me if you have a gun or a knife or some sort of weapon, especially a teenage girl who's scared and alone. And so, you know, in any way, it, it just painted a very scary picture to the family that somebody had taken her is what they believed.
Em: Right.
Christine: So now that they began to suspect a kidnapping instead of a drowning, the police suddenly faced this new problem, which is that of course, the entire crime scene has been contaminated. Right. Because, uh, the parents had sat in the chair when there was no lifeguard, and everybody had like, looked through the stuff and people were walking up and down.
Em: Just fucked with all the evidence.
Christine: The beach. Yeah. And it's like.
Em: Also if, if I were her mom and her sister who were like fighting for someone to just listen to me earlier, I would be so fucking livid that like, we wasted all that time.
Christine: I know. I know. And so, like...
Em: I can't even imagine.
Christine: If you listen to the Voices for Justice episode, Heather talks a lot about like how much distrust she has now just because of the way that she's been like, umm, uh, betrayed, you know, by authorities and that kind of thing. And, and just like the frustration of never getting clear answers. Never, you know, and I, I am, I think that tends to be a part of most of these cases where it's like you just hit dead end after dead end, and you're not getting answers and you are more desperate than anyone, but like, you have to wait.
Em: Yeah. Oh my God. Just feels.
Christine: Wait for the police to handle it. Yeah. And so, you know, you can understand why people take matters into their own hands and start looking themselves and start.
Em: Yeah, totally.
Christine: You know, doing grass grassroots stuff for that reason. But so yeah, essentially the whole crime scene had been, umm, contaminated at this point. The first aid kit had been touched, Molly's shoes, her whistle, her chair fingerprints, DNA on everything, footprints covered any path into the forest where they were looking for her. And so, you know, any leads may have been destroyed by that point. And when the search commenced at Dawn, suddenly it's, it was like, with this renewed effort, and many of the officers in the local police station knew Molly's father John, because he was a probation officer. And so, you know, they were like, oh shit. You know, uh, John's daughter's missing. Okay, we'll get in on it. And so this, this search takes over, like this whole new level, and they're deploying helicopters with infrared imaging, like looking for, you know, any sign of life down below. They have mounted officers on horseback searching the forest for for Molly.
Em: You know, he called in every favor he had, like, every.
Christine: I know, right?
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: Yeah. You, you, you'd have to at that point. Yeah. What else can you do?
Em: It's like, whatever it takes. Oh my God. I can't, I can't imagine the desperation.
Christine: And the fact that even with those connections, they still were like frustrated and not getting anywhere. I mean, yeah. So people, you know, this is a small community. Umm, people knew the family, and so these citizen search parties started forming. They were trying to look for every remote possible spot where they could find, umm, find Molly in this like vast woodland. Meanwhile, investigators told the Bish's that they believed Molly was abducted. And like, imagine that moment when the police are like, yeah, this is not an accident. She's a victim of a crime. That's what we think. And somebody's taken your daughter away. It's like, nightmare.
Em: Well, It's like, it's al, it was already the worst case scenario And now all of a sudden it's like, oh, I didn't know it could get worse. Now it's worse.
Christine: Yeah. And now it's like the police are like, yep. Stamp of approval on that theory. It's like, shit. Like you're hoping, you know, someone will say, no, no, no, no. You know, that's, I'm sure it's not that it's not the worst fear you have.
Em: Like you were just hoping she was just hurt some, umm, somewhere and you just couldn't hear her. Like, that's.
Christine: Exactly.
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: And so, you know, with all this going on these search efforts, the police turn to the family and say, Hey, we think she's been abducted and just this like deep seated terror. Umm, and Magi especially has this moment, this flashback to the day before her daughter went missing. So this would've been her seventh day of work, as usual, as the routine had become, Magi would arrive with Molly. This was the morning of the 26th so the day before. And as Molly was setting up for the day, Magi, her mom noticed a man in a white sedan parked at the pond, smoking a cigarette, and she noticed that this man was just watching Molly intently. And Magi had that like gut instinct of this is not a good situation. And so instead of driving away, she stayed and apparently was looking at this guy like, what do you want creep? You know? And apparently he looked back at her and just stared right back at her. Like, a mean, like tried to mean mug her? You know.
Em: I've had that happen before. It's very unsettling.
Christine: It's unsettling 'cause you, you expect the human nature of like, oh, shit I have been caught staring. But like somebody leans into it.
Em: Yeah. It's like an asserting dominance thing.
Christine: Yes. Yes. And it's like, oh, I know, you know, that I, you know, it's, Ooh. And so she's watching this guy like this creeper staring at her daughter, and she's like, I don't think so. And so she got, gets back out of her car and she stays with Molly while Molly gets ready for work. And she expresses her concern. But Molly does that classic teenage thing of like, oh, mom, you're so embarrassing. There's like, it's probably just a fisherman. And like, there's always guys alone here, like, coming to fish and stuff. Stop being weird and making a scene, you know? That kind of usual, just like, mom, you're embarrassing me. This is my new job. Like, I'm not that. I'm not a little kid, you know? And so Magi was like, okay, you know what? I'm being overly worried. Umm, I'll let you be.
Christine: This is your job and your responsibility. She instead decides to sit in the car and kind of just pretend to be busy so she can watch the scene. Right. Like, she has enough instinct here to be like, I don't trust this guy. So she stays and watches and waits, and finally the guy finishes his cigarette and drives away, and she's like, oh phew. Okay. And that's when she goes home the next day, you know, the whole hullabaloo happens. Molly vanishes. And then shortly thereafter when police say, Hey, we think maybe somebody abducted her. It's like Magi has this sudden flashback of the day before Molly vanished of this man. And she thinks, oh shit, maybe.
Em: She knows.
Christine: He came back for her. Yeah.
Em: That's so weird that she had a mother's intuition, it, it almost feels like a mother's clairvoyance of like, I already know that this person is gonna rock my world in like the worst way.
Christine: And the fact, oh, I've chills the fact that he just stared her down too.
Em: Yeah. It almost.
Christine: It's just chilling.
Em: I feel like it would eat me alive being like, was me staring him down the reason why he did something to my daughter.
Christine: I doubt it.
Em: Like, not that it was her fault, but I, I would, I would, I would spiral and be like, did he feel challenged? And like he did something.
Christine: Well, I mean, I'm sure there's so much of like, oh man, I should have like, you know, trusted my gut. But, you know, she did, she waited until he was no longer in sight and no longer a danger. And so, yeah, I imagine there's a lot of just like, what if, what if, what if, you know, which I feel like would probably have eaten you alive.
Em: I would've thought uh, totally. I would've been like, I should have said something to him, or I should have told her, you know.
Christine: I should've been more insistent that she, you know, anything. Yeah. I, I totally get it. And like, as you said, it's to, it's absolutely not her fault in any way, but it's that feeling where you're like, oh man. I was so close. And maybe that's, maybe I had an answer. You know? Umm, and so she tells police immediately about this guy. And I mean, the good news, I guess at the time is that she, because he had stared her down, she had a very, very good understanding of what this guy looked like. And so she worked with the police to create a composite sketch of a middle-aged man. Apparently she spent hours doing this sketch, like eight hours, I think, with the sketch artist to get like the exact right face.
Em: Good for her.
Christine: And so they created this composite sketch of a middle-aged man with salt and pepper hair, brown eyes, and a mustache. And other residents saw the, saw the picture, saw the drawing, and said, yep, I saw that guy too. Umm, and they saw him driving a white vehicle. Cemetery employees had also seen a white car in the days prior to Molly's disappearance parked in the cemetery. So soon tips are pouring in from all over the country. Umm, investigators are following every lead, but like, it's, it's gotten to the point almost... Molly's father actually said, it's almost as if we had too many suspects. Like they're looking at at all, you know, all the, all the, umm, sex offenders in the area, they're looking at anybody who might've known her. It's just a sea of people.
Christine: And the composite sketch was like vague enough that it looked like quite a few people. And one investigator said, oh, people are trying to like, make people they know fit the composite sketch 'cause they don't trust them, but it doesn't, there's not even a resemblance, so it's just a waste of time.
Em: Right.
Christine: And they're, they're investigating all the white vehicles registered in the area and getting nowhere. And it's at this point police investigate Molly's boyfriend Steve, and they'd only been together a few months, and that day, strangely, he had a cut lip and his eyebrow ring was missing.
Em: Oh hmm.
Christine: And when police asked about those injuries, he told police he had hit his face on his bedroom door and cut his lip getting out of bed that morning. But some of Steve's friends told police allegedly that his story had changed and that he had previously claimed it was a cold sore and not, not like a cut. So Steve also didn't participate in the on the ground searches for Molly while her friends searched with Steve's friends and police found that suspicious. But Molly's brother, and actually Molly's whole family disagreed. And they still to this day like stand behind Steve's innocence and say he had nothing to do with this.
Em: Oh, that's nice.
Christine: Yeah. Apparently he had come from what they called a very troubled home, umm, and had a very, very hard life, like a relatively hard childhood. And, umm, then when police suspicion, you know, went straight to him, he didn't have the support system of parents that were like ready to vouch for him and all that. And so, umm, Heather has actually explained that she thinks he's one of the victims of this whole incident because of the way he was treated.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Umm, and he actually ended up dying a few years later in a car crash at a really young age.
Em: Wow.
Christine: So, either way, just to give you the kind of clear here, uh, Steve is, has never been considered a suspect. Umm, he was with the family for several hours the day Molly went missing. John was like, I don't think this guy killed Molly, hid her body, went back to bed for an hour, rode back to the scene of the crime with Molly's sister, acted unassuming around the whole family. He took a polygraph test. He passed the polygraph test. There's just no evidence that he was involved. So police then look into Molly's boss, Ed Fett whose fingerprints were on Molly's first aid kit. But he said he had gone to get her radio, her police radio when he first reported Molly missing. And that's why his fingerprints were on her first aid kit. That morning...
Christine: So this is another weird, like hitch in the story that just kind of makes you like, tilt your head a little bit. The morning that Molly disappeared, Ed Fett her boss ran into Molly's brother John at the hardware store. Or I guess I should say it the other way. Molly's brother John ran into Ed Fett and that was his old boss. Right. Because like he was the lifeguard before.
Em: Right because he used to be a lifeguard there. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. And so they ran into each other at the hardware store and, you know, because it's Molly's brother saying, oh, I saw him at the hardware store this morning. They're like, pretty sure this is a solid alibi or solid lead. Umm, and it was just a little strange because apparently John saw Ed Fett buying rope and duct tape, which, you know, could be for a number of things, but is also like just a little odd.
Em: It's interesting to note, given the circumstances.
Christine: It's interesting in the context, given the circumstances. Exactly. And Ed had already known that Molly wasn't at work that day, but didn't mention it to John when he ran into him at the hardware store. And some people are like, why wouldn't he say, Hey, your sister's not at work. But then some people are like, well, maybe it just didn't even occur to him. Like he thought she was out with friends and was like, I'm not gonna bother her brother with this. Like, you know. Maybe he was expecting her to be back by the time he returned to the pond. Who knows? But either way it's just, it's something to note, you know what I mean? And apparently...
Em: I could also see someone just like, like forgetting in the moment that they're even related, just being like, oh, yeah.
Christine: Exactly. Exactly. And just like, not even thinking to say it. I will say also, umm, that apparently later on Ed Fett was, completely unrelated, but was charged with like, some sexual assault stuff, or sexual...
Em: Oh, shit.
Christine: I don't know the details of that, but apparently he's like not a great guy in a number of other ways, so. You know, I don't, I don't know whether this is anything suspicious or not, but it's just part of the story. And John himself, you know, was not, uh, was not as considered a suspect, you know, he, he...
Em: I mean, the way that he was like fighting tooth and nail to like, get into the water to go find his sister.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. Very good point. And he had a solid alibi. And I, I also wanna clarify real quick, sorry. His name is John Junior and his dad is John Senior. So if I say John, I'll try to clarify which one I'm speaking about. But this is John Junior. Yeah. This the, the brother. Umm, and then of course they're thinking, oh shit, like her dad's a probation officer. Maybe someone had a vendetta, you know, and like had resentment and took it out on his daughter. But everyone that John worked with closely basically spoke positively of John. Nobody seemed to have issues with him as a probation officer. Nobody seemed to have like a vendetta or a grudge against him. And here's where things get just chilling. Okay. So this unfortunately was not the first vanishing, not the first disappearance of a girl in this area.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So, seven years prior, a girl named Holly Piirainen she was 10 years old, so she disappeared from Sturbridge, which is only a few miles away from Warren. So what happened back then, and, and it's also slightly confusing 'cause it's Holly and Molly, right? Their names rhyme. So Holly had been staying with her grandparents in 1993, she's 10 years old. She walked down the street with her brother to see some puppies 'cause the neighbors had just gotten some new puppy, or had, the dogs had had some puppies. Pretty soon her brother came back home, he's five. And he says, oh, Holly told me to go home. And her dad says, well, where is she? I mean, this is within like less than an hour. Like, they go down to see these puppies. The brother comes back without Holly, and he's only five, so he can't really express much, you know. But he says, oh, she told me to go home. And he's like, well, where is she? And they found her shoe, but she was gone.
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: Horrible.
Em: So do we think like he, she protected him and said like, get out of here?
Christine: That's one of the theories is that she knew something was wrong and sent him home. Or the other theory is just they're siblings and she's like, you're annoying me. Go home. I wanna see puppies. You know, so it's, there's just no way to know because he's five years old. He is like, I don't know, she told me to go home and now she's gone. And so it, it just was unclear. But like I said, police found her shoes on the ground beside the road, which was like really startling. And interestingly, Molly, who was like living in a nearby town, right, was the same age. So essentially now, you know, Molly's gone missing at age 16, but seven years prior, they're both like nine or 10 years old. They're both the same age.
Em: Right.
Christine: And at Molly's church, the pastor says something like, Hey, let's all pray for this family. You know, they're going through this Missing child.
Em: Oh wow.
Christine: And so one of the things suggested by for the congregation to do is to write letters of support to the family. And so fast forward seven years and Molly's disappearance is all over the news, Holly's parents come forward and they have a letter from Molly from seven years ago that she had written to Holly's family saying we're the same age. And you know, it is just like the sweetest, like little 10-year-old writing this, this letter. And the family had kept it for all those years and knew who this was. They were like, she wrote us a letter when our daughter disappeared and now she's missing. And it was just such a strange, like.
Em: That's so weird.
Christine: Coincidence and synchronicity and just very strange. Very, very strange. Umm, so when Molly went missing, like I said, Holly's family found this letter, and they actually went to the Bish's house. They visited and said, look what we have. Like, we have the letter.
Em: Oh my gosh.
Christine: She wrote to us. And you know, the, the full transcript of the letter is online, but some of it read. I am very sorry. I wish I could make it up to you. Holly is a very pretty girl. She's almost as tall as me. I wish I knew Holly. I hope they found her. And just like the sweetest like little kid letter, you know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And she had actually also included a picture of her family in the letter and said, I'm the one sitting on my mom's lap in this picture, you know? And so they still had all that. And seven years later, you know, they're like, oh my God, now we're coming to comfort you about your daughter.
Em: What a weird thing to commiserate with each other on. I mean.
Christine: I know. And the last thing you'd want to commiserate about.
Em: I know, but at least they like, have been through it. Like at least they know what you're going through. It's just still terrible.
Christine: Yeah. And so speaking of Holly, tragically, her remains were discovered in the woods by hunters, umm, pretty close to the road where she had been abducted and her abductor and murderer was never found. And so people are now wondering, oh my God, is this the same person? Were we just like lulled into a false sense of security over the past seven years, but this guy's been lurking and like waiting for another victim, you know? Both girls were blonde, blue-eyed, abducted in rural settings. Umm, similar in a lot of ways. They were, I mean, they were the same age, you know, by birth, but of course different ages when they were abducted. And the, you know, police police did consider this, but of course they also loved the theory that perhaps she had just run away. You know, because that's what you do, if you take your shoes off and leave in a bathing suit for no reason.
Christine: And sure, sure, you leave everything at home. That makes sense. She had, she had ca... She had checks that had never been cashed at home. Like what teenager would leave money at home? You know, it just doesn't make any sense. But either way, state police are following every lead they can, you know, there's just dead end, dead end and months go by. And finally the state police packs up and goes back to their own main offices and says, okay, we'll work on it from our offices. And that's kind of where the Bish's felt like, oh, we've been left behind. Like they're moving on. They have more, uh, pressing matters to deal with, you know, and now we're left like bereft with no answers and months essentially turned into years. And they tried their best to survive in Molly's absence, but there's just like this constant grief and fear, you know, especially with no answers.
Christine: The way Magi described it, she said they were living halfway between hell and hope. And so it's like the hope that keeps you going, but then you're just like crushed over and over and over again, you know?
Em: That's awful.
Christine: So in 2003, a hunter reported something. This was like kind of the first break they had in a while. A hunter reported something he had seen in the woods months earlier that seemed like nothing at the time, but now he was like, wait a minute, this feels suspicious. He had seen a piece of clothing abandoned in the woods about five miles from Comins Pond in Palmer, Massachusetts. And investigators hiked back to the spot and were surprised that this cloth was still there. And it was actually a blue piece of a bathing suit. And it was the same color as the one Molly had been wearing when she vanished.
Christine: So police launched the largest search in Massachusetts history. 180 officers, some still in training, conducted a shoulder to shoulder grid search of 500 acres of woodland here.
Em: Holy shit.
Christine: And as they're scouring the forest, you know, day by day they get the DNA evidence back from the bathing suit, and it did in fact belong to Molly. So this is a piece of her bathing suit. They found five miles from the pond in the woods. When Magi Bish received the news, she fell to her knees and began to weep. Umm, John Jr. Said it was strange to to both like, have that kind of double-sided, two-sided coin of like, we hope it's Molly, we hope it's not Molly's because like, we don't want, it's not a good sign. Right. To find piece of a bathing suit.
Em: But you also want answers. Yeah.
Christine: But you also wanna know, and like, they want closure. So it's that weird in between. And pretty soon the searchers, you know, begin to find more answers. They discover a human bone and then 26 more bones. And as this is being reported to the family, Heather described it as an eternal nightmare waiting to see if these remains were in fact her sister. And yes, after DNA evidence was tested, it did confirm that the remains belonged to Molly. And so, you know, now they knew that something terrible had happened to her.
Christine: She was in fact deceased. And the Bish's released a public statement through a family friend, which said, At this time the Bish family would like to thank everyone for their prayers and continued support throughout these three years, Molly has come home. And so on August 2nd, 2003, which would've been her 20th birthday, they laid her to rest. They put the bones in a child-sized coffin that was then placed in a larger adult coffin.
Christine: And they buried it with a Tigger stuffed animal, her prom dress, and a lot of letters and photos and notes from loved ones and friends and family. And, you know, very, very, very sad day. But her family was finally able to get a little bit of closure. So the Bish's hired an ex-police chief and private investigator named Tom Shamshak to continue the investigation of Molly's murder. And like I mentioned, umm, in 2008, Steve Lucas died in a car accident, but he was never considered, this was the boyfriend, and he was never actually considered, you know, a suspect in the case. In February, 2008, a man in his 60s named Rodney Stanger was arrested in Florida. Now stay with me because this is quite a leap, right? You're thinking like, oh, Massachusetts to Florida is not like, there's no obvious connection. But this guy in February, 2008, he's in his 60s, his name is Rodney Stanger, he's arrested in Florida for the murder of his girlfriend, Crystal Morrison.
Em: Okay.
Christine: And someone from Florida calls the Massachusetts District Attorney's office claiming that this man, Rodney Stanger, who was just arrested, was connected to Molly's abduction and killing. And police were like, how and why? And the caller said, I spoke to Rodney's girlfriend who had just been killed. Right? Crystal.
Em: Right.
Christine: And she had spoken of Molly as if she and Rodney had known Molly before she was killed.
Em: Oh shit.
Christine: Fun fact. Rodney was a local fisherman and hunter who lived near Warren for 20 years until he moved to Florida a year after Molly vanished.
Em: Hmm. Funny how that works.
Christine: Yeah. He also didn't own a white car, but guess what his brother sure did. And, uh, was it registered in the area? Absolutely. So, Rodney's two ex-wives, as well as the sister of his murdered girlfriend, reported many years of violent and abusive behavior from Rodney. Rodney denied any involvement in Molly's or Holly's cases. 'Cause now they're thinking, oh my God, maybe we've got the guy who did both. Right?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: But he pleaded guilty to second degree murder in Crystal's killing. Umm, after he was deemed incompetent by men, mental health professionals and hospitalized in a mental health facility, he was ultimately sentenced to 25 years in prison in 2010. And in the following years, like not much movement has happened. And I, I know Heather has talked about like how frustrating it is that they have this guy who's like such a good fit. Right. And I also wanna just show you real quick, hold on. I'm gonna pull up the, umm, composite sketch.
Em: I love when you send me a sketch.
Christine: I know. I gotta send you a sketch. Uh, it's like, talk about like, very hyper realistic, you know how some sketches, you're kind of like, eh, it looks wonky, you know, this is like a portrait of this person. So here's a sketch. Very specific.
Em: Hmm. Oh, wow. I was not imagining that's what he looked like. Okay.
Christine: I know. Yeah. Do you wanna describe him? He's kind of like a burlier dude.
Em: He's kind of giving like Italian Luigi kind of like a...
Christine: Yeah, he has...
Em: He looks.
Christine: The mustache.
Em: He's like, he, He looks like he, he's either like Italian or like, maybe like Latino.
Christine: Like Hispanic perhaps. Yeah. That's kind of the vibe that they felt was... Yeah. They, they said like dark hair, dark features, you know, thick mustache, middle aged.
Em: That's a pretty damn good sketch of somebody. Like.
Christine: I'm saying.
Em: If you're going, I, in my mind when I think of a sketch, I still think of like, kind of a, like...
Christine: Like a circle nose. Yeah. I'm like, I feel like, yeah. Like, uh, I don't know how people are so good at this.
Em: This is, this is unmistakable, this is like a, this is really a person.
Christine: It's like a portrait of someone.
Em: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine: And so one of the wild parts that Heather talks about the frustrations is that this guy had lived in a trailer in Florida and police had not done a thorough search of this trailer. And apparently at one point, like Fox News, like local Fox News Station or something went and like did their own on the ground investigation. Were like, we're gonna look at the trailer. And, uh, I guess the police got involved at that point and they found in this trailer, which now is compromised because randos are going in to search it. So it's like, well, shit, now it's not necessarily like concrete evidence. They found like an old hunting license. I'm, I'm gonna see if I can find the photo. And I tell you what the photo man.
Em: Pretty damn accurate.
Christine: I'm just saying here's the two pictures. I guess here's them, here's all three. There were two composite sketches drawn. It definitely looks more like, uh, the one on the left.
Em: Oh, wow. Yeah.
Christine: But like, he, he looks pretty damn, uh, the mustache, the hair parted in the same spot, just to...
Em: That looks like it could be him.
Christine: Very unsettling. Umm, and so, you know, they find this picture and Heather's like, oh my God, how did the police miss that? Point being, you know, this is just very, it lines up, right? And, but Heather's frustrated because nothing has really moved, you know, ever since. And in the following years, several other persons of interest have been identified, including a convicted rapist named Frank Sumner, who worked in auto shops in the area and definitely had access to a white car, uh the day Molly was murdered. Frank died in 2016. But investigators like hope that if he was involved, it'll be revealed among like all the physical evidence they still have in custody, that they're hoping, you know, advancing technology will be able to like put more clarity on some of these, on some of these pieces.
Em: Sure.
Christine: So this June, umm, this past June of 2024 would be, was 24 years since Molly's murder. And NBC 10 Boston spoke with police who said they were approaching Molly's case with new forensics tech techniques, uh, which have advanced of course, in the decades since Molly's death. I mean, 2000 to us probably doesn't feel that long ago, but it's, you know, going on a quarter of a century, you know?
Christine: I know. Umm.
Em: It's crazy.
Christine: Okay. Like, relax. Okay.
Em: Sorry.
Christine: Try to hurt, hurt your feelings again. But it's true, unfortunately. But yeah, things are, things are, you know, advancing. And so with that comes some science, you know, and, and hopefully more tools to, to close some of these cases. Like, I mean, I listened to the Morbid episode on this podcast or on this story too, and they talked about, like, think about it, like Summerton man was identified like. Lady of the Dunes. I mean, this shit is like, just because, you know, 2000 in that context is not too old to be solved. If a, if the Summerton man can be identified, like we can hopefully find answers for a case like this where there is still quite a bit of evidence to test, you know, and, and DNA. And uh Heather, uh, Molly's sister has been, at least as of 2020, has been working on this kind of familial DNA bill in Massachusetts, which would allow, I, I don't wanna like misspeak here, umm, it's a little over my head, but I, I guess would allow, uh, investigators to link like, like family members.
Christine: Kind of like how they found the Golden State Killer, you know, right. By, by linking like a family tree. It, it's some sort of familial genealogy. Umm.
Em: Nice.
Christine: DNA access. So you know that, I don't know if that bill went through or not, this was a couple years ago. But in any case, umm, they police have said they will use new processes to collect DNA from Molly's bathing suit along with other items Molly had that day, even soil samples, umm, and maybe, you know, DNA evidence can lead them to the killer, but they said they generally wouldn't publicly name a person of interest. But they had received such solid leads regarding this Frank character that they hoped bringing it to public attention would encourage someone else who maybe knew Frank to provide more information, especially because he's passed away. And like, you know, it would be helpful to know somebody who knew him when he was alive.
Christine: Heather said, I miss my sister. It never ends. I don't look at the world the same way. In the wake of Molly's death The Bish's work to keep her legacy alive. Magi and John began the Molly Bish foundation, which works to distribute child identification booklets. Because apparently Heather explained one of the things that happened was they said, we need a photo of, of Heather to post, you know, on flyers and to share with the media. And they had to like scrounge up a, a, a recent picture, you know, and it's like on some digital camera somewhere. But what, you know, what they're trying to promote is, you know, make sure you have this information readily available just in case, you know, just be prepared, be aware. Umm, apparently having a recent photo of a missing child is, uh, like a current photo is much more effective, obviously, you know, understandably in getting them returned home safely.
Em: Right.
Christine: And so that's, that's like one big tool that they're always pushing to have these kind of clear photos on hand. Umm, so you can give them straight to investigators if anything goes wrong. And they had not had this clear photo of Molly when she vanished and they wished they had. So now they're really pushing for that. Umm, they also helped pass a law that established the Amber Alert System in Massachusetts. And Heather says, umm, you know, recently, well, not recently anymore, but a few years ago, umm, there was a girl who was, uh, an Amber alert went out and she was returned home safely. And Heather called her mom and said, that's because of you. Like, that girl was returned home safely because of you.
Em: Wow.
Christine: And the work that you did. And so, you know, they're really still trying to, umm, even though they can't change what happened to Molly, they're hoping at least moving forward, they can, you know, make changes in other people's lives. And it sounds like they really have, umm, countless times. But Magi, umm, Molly's mom says she's just grateful that in the 16 years that Molly lived, that they were so close, as close as they could possibly be, umm, she said, I guess we're lucky that we had such great love, which is heartbreaking.
Em: That's really.
Christine: It's like that, I mean, not to like build, I'm not trying to, you know, minimize it, but it's like that quote like, umm, that Winnie the Pooh quote of like, how lucky am I to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard? It's just that same idea of like, it just makes it hurt more, you know? But it's like, at least we had each other while we were alive, while she was alive.
Em: Mm-Hmm.
Christine: So the family also hopes, umm, that Holly's family receives the same answers and justice because again, Holly had disappeared seven years prior and they still don't have answers for her case either, you know? And both of their remains were found. So it's kind of like, could be the same person, it could be a different person, but either way, neither family has answers yet. So, you know, they're hoping that, that they'll find something with advancing technology. Umm, but even if the deaths do turn out to be unrelated, of course the families are still connected, like you said, you know, they've gone through the same horribly unimaginable, tragic kind of a loss. And the fact that they even have a letter kind of bridging the gap there is just like...
Em: Yeah. And they both, they both have, umm...
Christine: Unbelievable.
Em: And it's, it is weird how much they have in common of not only missing, but then finding remains, but then also not knowing if...
Christine: Yeah. No, no answers despite...
Em: Knowing who the person is. Like it's very, very...
Christine: And also like...
Em: Pretty identical.
Christine: Abducted in broad daylight, right? Like just middle of the day, uh, children, blonde eyed, blue haired, same area. It's just very weird. It's all very weird. And some people have said like, maybe it's the, umm, like Rodney Stanger and his brother lived in the area. Maybe they both were, you know.
Em: Oh, right. That's an interesting theory.
Christine: Involved in the different cases, especially 'cause the brother had the white car. But, you know, it sounds like this Fred guy is a really good lead and, you know, it's, it's hard, it's hard to say. And I, I think even just listening to Heather talk about how frustrated she is at not getting any answers, like, I'm not gonna know any more than she is. Right. So unfortunately, we just kind of have to wait and hope that, umm, Molly's family gets some, some more intel. But yeah, that is the, the case of Molly Bish. Umm, and you know, kind of a slight addressing of, of Holly Bish's tragic, uh, death as well.
Em: Do you know if they're still in touch with each other? Holly and Molly's families?
Christine: You know, I don't know actually. I don't know.
Em: I don't know if that's like a thing that you keep in touch with about, or like, I mean, not really about that specifically, but I wonder if you like stay close or you almost, it almost reminds you too much.
Christine: It's like too hurtful. Yeah.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: I wonder too, I mean, I don't know. I, I heard Heather talk about... I mean, I, there's something about, umm, Sarah Turney is just like such a good podcaster, umm, she did such a good, like, thorough, like, she didn't even speak. Whenever Heather was speaking, She just like, I don't know, she just does such a good job with the episode. But Heather talked about how she and her brother, umm, are still pretty close. Like, the family's still pretty close.
Christine: Of course, they're like deeply traumatized. Apparently Molly's dad had a stroke, umm, a pretty big massive stroke in recent years. And she said, despite it being like this medical, you know, trauma, he almost gained peace out of it. Like it, the way she described it was like he had been carrying the burden of his daughter being missing, and he's the one working with in law enforcement, and like, he's the one who feels responsible.
Em: Right.
Christine: And she said after the stroke, he kind of just like settled a bit and is content now, and like just wants to spend time with his family and, umm, sit and drink his coffee and, you know?
Em: Okay.
Christine: So she said she, so Heather said she's kind of taken on the mantle of like championing for, for Molly and trying to find answers. Umm, and she's on TikTok as well, so, you know, go give her a follow. Umm, I wanna make sure I get the right name. Heather, Heather K Bish is her name. So, you know, worth a, worth a follow to, to kind of keep in touch and keep up to date, but that's the case.
Em: Wow. Yeah. A lot of synchronicities. You're right there. Wow. Well, I like to think that... I, I hope it's in our lifetime, but there will be a technology as powerful as like processing DNA, you know.
Christine: I know that we can't even picture, I always think that.
Em: I'm always like, what's the thing?
Christine: 'Cause like, we wouldn't have even known about d, you know, we wouldn't have even been able to pro consider that.
Em: I always wonder what the next thing is and how obvious it's going to be. Like.
Christine: Me too.
Em: Like how, how much of it is just strewn somewhere and we just like, just leave it to linger and don't even care about it right now.
Christine: One theory I have is like, maybe we'll be able to tell who's been where, like maybe you leave some sort of imprint, you know, like an.
Em: Or even on your phone, I mean with like tracking.
Christine: Oh, that too, yeah. Tech. Yeah. That kind of technology. Definitely.
Em: I was, uh, I recently got on Mob TikTok and... Or Ma Mafia TikTok. And umm, they were asked like, oh, is there, is the mafia still a thing? Like you never really hear about like the mafia after people.
Christine: Right.
Em: And they said it's still like that, but they don't, at least, uh, some of the families, like, they just don't kill anymore. And, and he was like, we literally can't, there's cameras everywhere. Like.
Christine: Right. We try.
Em: It, it's so weird that even the Mafia is like, I don't know, like, I guess we just gotta quit. I don't know. There's no other option.
Christine: That's crazy. That's just so wild to think about.
Em: Umm, it's so weird that like cameras are what stopped the mafia 'cause if you ask people hundreds of years ago, not hundreds of years, tens of years ago, they'd be like, what do you think's gonna, when is the mafia gonna end? No one would've thought...
Christine: What's your biggest like, yeah. What's the biggest hurdle? Security cameras. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. Anyway, I wonder what the next thing will be, where like, you know, where criminals are just leaving it all over the place right now and don't even notice it's a problem.
Christine: Oh God. I hope something. I hope something.
Em: Uh, well anyway, great story, Christine.
Christine: Well thank you. And same to you. And, uh, sorry again for bumming everyone out and having a weird like, uh, identity crisis about it in the middle of the episode for some reason.
Em: Well, you know, that seems to be your weekly routine. So.
Christine: You're like, we'll be back at it again.
Em: If people are still listening after this long, they, they know what's coming. You know what's gonna happen next week, Christine's gonna have another identity crisis halfway through.
Christine: What?
Em: Uh, what, what do we, Hmm. You know what we should do? We should talk more about Gullah Gullah Island over at Yappy Hour, whatever we're calling it. I don't know.
Christine: Let's go to yappy hour 'cause I need it.
Em: Okay. So, so, so long farewell to you, my friend.
Christine: Oh, I thought we were singing the Sound of Music.
Em: Oh, Okay. Sorry. You sang Paw Patrol and now this time I'm singing. Okay. Umm, yeah. So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodnight.
Christine: Goodbye.
Em: And.
Christine: That's.
Em: Why.
Christine: We.
Em: Drink.
