[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hey, are you okay?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Are you okay?
Christine Schiefer: Does shout, does shouting help?
Em Schulz: Well, my ears are more awake now.
Christine Schiefer: Good morning.
Em Schulz: Uh I think all of our ears are a-awake now.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That reminds me of umm... When I was, uh, when I would stay at my grandma's house when I was younger... My...
Christine Schiefer: And she would scream in your ears.
Em Schulz: She was, I said this before on the show, it still to this, I don't even care that she's like not even with us anymore, I'll never get over it. She would like way too happily sing in the morning and I'm just like, oh my God, shut the fuck up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my dad did that.
Em Schulz: And I loved her very much, but I'm like I was not in the damn mood, uhh but uh actually I did need that it was... I... My brain really was asleep for a second, so you actually helped me there.
Christine Schiefer: The uh... I knew many people who sang in the morning and the worst offender was my friend Celine's dad, Michael, who would sing about all the things he was making for breakfast, but he, he's like one of those dads that like wakes up at you know 6:15, and so he'd be like, wakey wakey, the sausages are in the pan, and we were like, oh my God.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. That's like, call me a slur. Like I really like do anything else, do anything else...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I did say that and he was like you're 11, please go home, umm.
Em Schulz: It's truly, it's so, it feels... I don't know what it is, maybe it's because I'm too tired to like be accepting... It feels like an attack. It feels [0:01:39.0] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Woah, yeah, it is like a form of terrorism, no doubt. Um. You know how they say, like I'm listening to a Stephen King, um the new Stephen King short stories uh book on Audible, and he talks about sleep... Or one of the stories there's like sleep deprivation, um by like blasting music, and I'm like, well, yeah...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That actually goes exactly into what we're talking about. Um.
Em Schulz: It's like it's also, it feels condescending because it's like you can't possibly think that our energies are matching right now.
Christine Schiefer: It's like congratulations. Yeah, congratulations, you're awake. Here's a fucking trophy. Okay?
Em Schulz: Yeah, and also I'm gonna force...
Christine Schiefer: Big whoop.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna put you in a position where now, if you don't match this energy, you look like an asshole and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's true. There... Oh...
Em Schulz: It's like you're the asshole.
Christine Schiefer: It's like you're playing, it's like you just showed up at the party and they have the limbo stick on the floor, and they're like your turn. And you're like, I just got here. I haven't even had a Mai Tai.
Em Schulz: And also, I just had back surgery. I'm not...
Christine Schiefer: I just had back surgery and also like I had the back surgery twice.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I couldn't think of another thing, so I just doubled down on yours. Um.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, it's, it was always like just so damn chipper and I'm like, I understand that some people don't need a, a couple of hours to like get ready for the day, but like give me a minute, please. Like...
Christine Schiefer: It's like when we tour together and when my brother and I tour together, it's like there's just silence. There's no need for any...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Pleasantries. It's, it's 11:30, the Lord's hour. So early in the morning. How dare you speak to me right now?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The sun has been out for five hours and that's just not enough.
Christine Schiefer: It's still waking up. The sun is in the in its... It's currently taking its time. Let me take my time.
Em Schulz: That is interesting, I don't know if people realize that, but when they wonder what it's like being on tour with you or what it's like for you to be on tour with me, and I assume Xandy, like truly no words are said until at least 1:00 in the afternoon...
Christine Schiefer: No. No, no.
Em Schulz: Like don't fucking talk to me. Don't fucking talk to me.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or just like here, or like I'm hungry.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, I think the only thing you ever say is... You're not even asking me if I want any, you just go, I need coffee, and then you just...
Christine Schiefer: Well, of course, I'm not gonna ask you, what, that would be fucking rude. You don't drink coffee. Hey, do you want some coffee? That's setting you up for a, for a losing situation too.
Em Schulz: I don't think so. I think that's a pretty generic uh sentence these days of like, we're both getting... We're both going somewhere where you're gonna have to order a [0:04:01.3] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. I mean fair, but like uh yeah, I wouldn't be like, hey, here's a cappuccino. I know you better than that.
Em Schulz: That's true, that's true. There have been people who, um when I'm traveling with them, they don't know me well enough, and they're like, oh, I got you a coffee, and I'm like, oh now, I have to be nice and drink something disgusting.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus, you have the worst luck in the morning.
Em Schulz: I also just have the worst attitude in the morning. I don't know if you're hearing it, but umm I'm just uh just...
Christine Schiefer: You have the worst friends who just like respect your time and like bring you coffee. It's like...
Em Schulz: And everyone's happy and singing, like it's a musical ugh...
Christine Schiefer: The fuck is wrong with these people. God.
Em Schulz: I, I hate this town. No. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, I'm just uh... I'm not grateful for anything without a couple of hours of reminding myself that I am on planet Earth, so um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, uh, no, I'm sorry, my energy was low when I got here, but after talking about it...
Christine Schiefer: It's usually... It's usually mine.
Em Schulz: I actually do feel better.
Christine Schiefer: And so usually you, you psych me up, so I thought today I'll start shouting and see what happens.
Em Schulz: I, I appreciate it. I, umm... No, I was just, I was just a sleepy little baby, and I just needed a second, and you know what really brought me out of that was getting to just complain. If anyone tells me food is there or we're gonna get to complain or... Oh, I'm awake.
Christine Schiefer: Indeed. Uhh that is really the only umm, like Em doesn't need coffee. Just like a little bitch sesh. You know. That will wake him, wake him right up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's my espresso.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I... Um.
Em Schulz: That gives me the jitters, you know what I'm saying.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is wrong with you? That sounds like one of those, uh what are the stupid things at Home Goods, fucking hell, uh the writing like...
Em Schulz: The... Was it the... It's starting...
Christine Schiefer: Rae. Something Rae.
Em Schulz: Yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: It was Addison Rae. I think that's a TikToker, uh whatever it's called. Uh your's what it would be like, gossip is my espresso. Like oh God.
Em Schulz: I would literally buy that. I would literally buy that because...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna make you that. Nobody make that. I'm making it. Everyone's... Because everyone's gonna make it better than me, and then I'm gonna be like, well, shit, now Em has to keep one of them and it's gonna be the nicer looking one. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Gossip is my... Now, I'm in a bad mood. What is going on today?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. We've just traded places.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh. It's a fine balance we always dance together. One of us always has to be a little too sleepy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh, I mean... Oh, I got a haircut today. You wanna see?
Em Schulz: I do because you're really... You were saying last time that you really wanted one.
Christine Schiefer: I need... Well, I didn't want one. I needed one 'cause my mom made me.
Em Schulz: Needed one.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It looks beautiful. Do a little...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: Do a little...
Christine Schiefer: I put too much hair spray in it. So it's like kinda clumpy, but whatever.
Em Schulz: No, I, I wanted uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's nice and short.
Em Schulz: Fashion show at lunch. You got to do a little wave. A little...
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately, it's a little too clumpy. It will just kinda go...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: It looks great.
Christine Schiefer: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I needed...
Em Schulz: It's a good... It's a good length.
Christine Schiefer: I needed to drop it off, umm but anyway, not interesting to everyone, I'm sorry, especially if you're listening on audio, umm but... Yeah, uh Em, why do you drink this week? Is it 'cause you're super sleepy?
Em Schulz: I'm just a little sleepy baby. Yeah, umm I...
Christine Schiefer: I don't enjoy that, I will say that to you.
Em Schulz: You don't, you don't like this? Why?
Christine Schiefer: No. It's actually like really uncomfortable for me. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. Christine doesn't like it. Okay, so... Umm...
Christine Schiefer: God, what are you? Andy Bernard?
Em Schulz: I just like to bother you, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so you are Andy Bernard, my least favorite character on television. Cool.
Em Schulz: You know who my least favorite is? Um. Uh. For a long time, it was actually Michael Scott, I just couldn't get into it. But I get it, I get it now, it just took a second.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you liked The Office.
Em Schulz: I do. I just don't... I thought you liked The Office. You just don't like Andy Bernard.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, but I think his point is, he's not likeable right?
Em Schulz: I guess so.
Christine Schiefer: I mean Michael Scott is the same way, but like more in like an endearing way. He's supposed to be like endearing, I don't know, maybe people are supposed to like Andy Bernard, I can't stand the guy, but...
Em Schulz: Uh, I couldn't, I couldn't stand him for a long time. Uhh because he reminded me of everyone I went to college with. So...
Christine Schiefer: Who? Andy Bernard? Yeah, like the loafers and coral pants. Uhh.
Em Schulz: Coral pants. Yeah. Umm oh my God, what was I gonna say to you? Why do I drink? Why do I drink? Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's because of people who sing in the morning is why you drink, and I, I feel like I wanna tell you the song my dad sings, it goes like this...
Em Schulz: Is it German? Is it a warning to everybody...
Christine Schiefer: Guten morgen. Guten morgen. Guten morgen.
[foreign language]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, it means good morning...
Em Schulz: So I can't get you to speak German, but you'll sing it to everybody, that's amazing.
Christine Schiefer: Happily. Happily. Good morning sunshine. Good morning sunshine. Already annoying. Umm okay, good morning, good morning sunshine. Uhh good morning sunshine. You are not allowed to be sad, is that the most German parent-like line of your life...
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Hold me hostage.
Christine Schiefer: You are not allowed to be sad. My parents have said so many times. Uhh there is no room for you to be sad. Uh. Yeah, it goes you are not allowed to be sad. Yeah, those are the only words I know. Good morning sunshine. You're not allowed to be sad. Is that not the most fucked up German song ever? I mean, it's not. There are so many more fucked up ones. But like that's rude, I'm sleeping.
Em Schulz: I like that it's umm the first message of every day was, you are not allowed to have emotions or get in my personal space of inconvenience.
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Also, um I do like that they say, don't be sad. Also, Krampus is coming. So do they see that on Christmas morning like...
Christine Schiefer: They sing... Well, maybe you'll be sad. Let's see if Krampus is coming with his many sticks.
Em Schulz: To beat you.
Christine Schiefer: Whee!
Em Schulz: Uhh yeah, you're right, that's why I drink. I just, man, I just wanna take a nap, man, I will. I have [0:10:01.7] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. You you, you will. I did wake you up earlier than usual today, I apologize. Um.
Em Schulz: No, it's that I went to sleep later than usual, which is why. This time is like usually I mean when I... If I wake up earlier than usual, like I'm kind of like a little sleepier, but no, this time I I woke up and it was like um Allison and I call it getting pulled out of the beyond, which is like the the moment where you're waking up and it's you're like, what year is it? And just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh trust me, we all know, I think, I hope.
Em Schulz: Yeah, umm it was one of those sleeps, so I think I just needed an extra second. Anyway, why do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: But what if... Well, because of all of that and because of people who sing in the morning, and I'm wondering if like... I'm wondering if like somebody could take that little um isolated clip. I mean we'd probably have to cut out Em asking questions about whether it's about to be you know a Krampus song, but if somebody could isolate that clip of me singing and set it up as their wake up tone.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Boy, boy would they hate me. Boy, would they so quickly grow to detest this podcast.
Em Schulz: It was uh... Yeah, especially when it's calling, when it's condescending-ly saying, hi sunshine, don't have feelings, that's.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're not... No, it's not don't have feelings. You're not allowed to.
Em Schulz: Right. Oh, right, having is forbidden.
Christine Schiefer: It's actually verboten. Forbidden. You know.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah the thing that s-sucked with my gammy would do it is she was truly the nicest, sweetest, most innocent, naïve, happy little person in the entire world.
Christine Schiefer: So you can't even just be like, shut that fuck up.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It would make me... It honestly made me more mad because I felt like she, I, she wouldn't relate if I was rude about it, like if you did it, I could just go like shut the fuck up, but I can't say that to gammy, you know so I have to be like, thank you so much. Please do it again tomorrow.
Christine Schiefer: I love that song gammy. Thank you for haunting my nightmares with it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So uh do you have... I... Before we get into it, people are going to ask because last week, all, all we did was like get real honest with ourselves about how stressed we were feeling.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Update, are you still that stressed? Are you more stressed? Are you less stressed? What's your quality of life today?
Christine Schiefer: They said it couldn't be done.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not sure.
Em Schulz: Xanax.
Christine Schiefer: Hardcore. I'm so fucking stressed, I could actually throw up my own insides. It's okay. Uh. I... Wow. I...
Em Schulz: Wouldn't have asked if I thought that was the answer. Oops.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't know what you expected. Uh. My therapist...
Em Schulz: I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Told me uh... I mean I left you like 16 voice memos yesterday. You must have known, you must have known I was in a, a worse place than I was.
Em Schulz: I thought we, I thought we were all on a voice memo era because all of us have been doing that and it's not in character for any of us, so I just...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I said Eva I'm sorry, I don't have time to talk because of the baby, can you just send me a voice memo, and she went oh, I forgot about voice memos, promptly, 65 voice memos later, I'm like, wow, Eva's into voice memos again, so um we've started our era, and then I was like, yeah, I love voice memos. So I just go back and forth. Um. But yeah, I've just had one of those weeks where you're like, oh, that's funny, uh you choose today to do this X, Y, Z. Um you know it's just one of those days, and my therapist uh... I know it's bad 'cause my therapist actually requested that I do a two-hour session next week. Um.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. What? That's never happened to me before.
Em Schulz: Why does it hurt my feelings?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, she said, I really think you need to come in. And I said, I mean, you're probably right. So uh it's just... Everything's good. Don't worry, everybody. Nobody's hurt or dead, uh but my body says otherwise. My panic disorder says otherwise.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Mm. Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Uh. Hmm. How do we back track from this? Uh.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, I think I deserve a fucking trophy 'cause again...
Em Schulz: You sure do.
Christine Schiefer: They said it couldn't be done, uh and then my father had the audacity to call me...
Em Schulz: Here we go.
Christine Schiefer: And say, don't be so stressy, and I said excuse me.
Em Schulz: Oh, don't... I'm sorry, you're not allowed to be sad.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right, right. He's saying it, he said, good morning sunshine. You're not allowed to stress out anymore, and I'm like, oh, I forgot it was illegal, I guess I will just internalize everything a bit further like usual, so anyway...
Em Schulz: I mean what a full circle actually, you should go tell your therapist in your two-hour session about that song, and how from the beginning of time, you have been told that you shouldn't actually know how to express your stress.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she knows that already. I mean she doesn't know about the song, but the rest of it, she figured out very quickly. Yesterday, she brought me an ice pack 'cause I was having a panic attack in front of her, which... It's it's like my night, my worst nightmare. I have panic attacks and I, I like to have them in the the solace of my own hovel with nobody around. And instead, it starts happening while I'm sitting there and I'm like, this isn't good, I'm going to the bathroom. She's like, no, like you're in therapy. You can have a panic attack. She goes, I'll be right back. She brings me a water bottle and I'm like, oh, what's this for... And she's like, for you to drink.
Em Schulz: To drink.
Christine Schiefer: I, like I was so weird about it, and then she hands me an ice pack and she's like, here, put this on the back of your neck, and I was like... And she goes, I can sense you're like really uncomfortable. This is several minutes later, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I'm supposed to thank you again or like if you want me to drink the water now, and she was like, has anyone ever like brought you a cup of water? And I was like, I mean no. My friends have, but I don't know, that's just not a thing that I'm used to. Um. So I was like, well, I'm usually hiding in my hovel, so um I guess that's kind of what prompted her to say, why don't you come in for two hours? Um. I'm half expecting a team of doctors to be there like you know how there are like residents with all their notes, like just watching. You know.
Em Schulz: Is so... First of all, amazed that you still go to therapy in person that's... I feel like that's almost like what like old people do now. Because everyone's got the online thing going on.
Christine Schiefer: I love it, 'cause like I can just go away into her little... She has like the sweetest little office, it has a little sound machine, it has all... It's all colorful and it has all these... This gay shit everywhere. And her whole theme, this is not even a joke, I did not know this when I found her, her whole theme of her office is like moths and...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Perfect for you.
Christine Schiefer: Gayness and moons, and I'm like...
Em Schulz: Perfect for you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh okay, I'm in the right spot. So she has one of those offices where I'm like, I would much prefer to be in there. It smells so nice and it's just so soothing. Um.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Understood.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow. And how long have you been with her?
Christine Schiefer: A couple of months, not very long. Umm yesterday, she asked me like, oh... She asked me a question and I said, I don't know if I can even begin to get into that, we only have half an hour left.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It looks like...
Em Schulz: We only have half of my session left.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I don't think now is the time to discuss uh that particular parental unit. Let's let's save that for another day.
Em Schulz: Well, do you do the thing? I do it every time. Poor Jordan, every... The, the thing I, the thing that probably requires the most conversation is the thing I bring up with five minutes left, and she goes like, are you, are you kidding me now we are into...
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's bad. It's a bad habit.
Em Schulz: I'm like, oh yeah, that thing, that thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I'm like oh I had a breakthrough, she's like, aahh no, you can save that breakthrough for next week, please. We're out of time.
Em Schulz: I, since, I said something about, I've had quite a few of, um I have a roster of fathers at this point umm and uh...
Christine Schiefer: Hey, same but the other way around.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I uh I said something to her, and I guess it it was one of those things where like, I don't realize it's traumatic, I just said it in passing 'cause like you know it does not affect me or I don't think it does.
Christine Schiefer: So do most things. Sure, yeah.
Em Schulz: And then she went, oh, and that was, that was... And then she said the name of a dad, I went, oh, no, no. That actually happened again with the other dad uhh...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes. No, that's a different dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And she went, there's another one? Yeah, I have.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I'm like...
Em Schulz: So that's next week.
Christine Schiefer: I know, no, not that mom.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And she goes, well, it's kind of unfair like you didn't... You know. Like there's all these different parents in in your life and like you didn't ask for that, and I'm like, I certainly didn't. Thanks. Yeah. It doesn't matter whether I asked for it or not. Umm, hi. Um.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: So it's been a week. I'm sorry, I keep shouting. It's just like...
Em Schulz: I think you need it. It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: I think I need it. I need scream therapy.
Em Schulz: It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Is that where you just scream?
Em Schulz: Yeah. We should do a thing where umm we just scream into pillows on the show because then maybe that'll give other people permission to scream so they don't feel alone in their car.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe they'll just call some sort of a podcasting authority and say, please make this stop. They should not be on the air. But we can try it out and see what happens.
Em Schulz: I would love, I would love to do uh... You don't have to do it today, but at some point, a little scream therapy never hurt anyone. I think um...
Christine Schiefer: I think we would be good at it. I think at first we'd feel feel un-comfy and then about five minutes in, we'd be like, we're the best at this than anyone has ever been.
Em Schulz: I, if I were in a car, I would not wanna scream alone, and I would if I heard other people screaming... It's like what's that thing? Um, uh. Like during uh mid-terms and finals on college campuses, they'll like, I don't know if your college had this, but we had like a day during finals where everyone would go out to like the quad and just all scream at the same time. That was so useful.
Christine Schiefer: I just saw that on a TV show. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot college students are so fucked up because of you know college and stuff.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The system. Uhh I think we won't do it this time, but next time, I'll have a pillow nearby, we do a little, a little screaming.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I would love that.
Em Schulz: Let's give it a whirl. All right. Okay, until then, let's do a story. And it's a quick one. I thought it was gonna be longer, but then I'd already committed to it, and now, we're doing a shorty. Uh. And I did this for you because I saw the name and I went, well, I gotta do it. So this is the story of the Sturdivant Hall.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up! Oh my God, speaking of so many extraneous parents, umm yes, that is my step-dad's last name, and therefore, the name of my... This is gonna sound bad. But it's true, uh the only grandparent I have who like, you know is my grandparent, really. Or like wants to be my grand...
Em Schulz: Grandma Pam?
Christine Schiefer: Grandma Pam. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh I love grandma Pam.
Christine Schiefer: Um. By the way, she just uh had surgery on her hip and uh is doing much better, so the the problem was they didn't know her hip was broken. She thought it was just sciatica pain, and then like months later, they found out her hip had been broken that whole time.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so she just had like emergency surgery, my mom drove up there, but she's, she's, she's sweet as ever. Looking good, feeling healthy and healthy.
Em Schulz: Oh, Grandma Pam is a dream. If, if you're trying to think what Grandma Pam is like imagine... You know, SpongeBob's grandma.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Um. That's grandma Pam. The second I met her, I went, this woman, I don't even know you, you need a, a trophy and a hug and an award and a cash prize.
Christine Schiefer: No, actually, the first time you met her, you thought she was a ghost because you were half awake at my home, and I had warned you that my home is full of uh ghosts and other uh nooks and crannies filled with graffiti and spider webs and other things, and so you woke up and you just kind of saw this ethereal presence of Grandma Pam and uh you really did say, okay, that's a ghost and go back to bed, but after that, yes, you did learn uh that Grandma Pam was a real flesh and bone human being um who quilts a lot, and uh tells me some of the best stories about her and herself and her friend, and the many high jinks they got up to back in the day. Um. She's just a a lovely soul.
Em Schulz: And can confirm first hand as a ghost, she'll be the best one there ever was, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh, she will be like you know tucking you in and like probably just new quilts will appear you know out of the blue in your favorite colors. Uh. She's just a very loving person, and she... The first time she said, oh, my granddaughter, I was like, no one's ever called me that before, she went what?
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, I'm serious. No one's ever said that to me before. So I was very... She's a very uh... She's a very loving presence in my life anyway, so... Sorry. Sturdivant, Sturdivant Hall.
Em Schulz: Shoutout to Grandma Pam. Uh. Oh yes. Sturdivant Hall. So I saw this and I went, well, obviously, I'm gonna have to do it. And by the way, I also suggest now that Renata calls her house Sturdivant Hall.
Christine Schiefer: I mean she probably... That's a great point. She probably does. She'll make it like the WiFi name, like how you have your uh...
Em Schulz: Like Schulzforth Manor.
Christine Schiefer: Schulzforth Manor. Sturdivant Hall. That's actually... I like that Em.
Em Schulz: I love it. I really think all of us should really... Because here's the thing, with capitalism, I don't think any of us are gonna be getting a manor any time soon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that old chestnut. Oh wait. Is that hazelnut or chestnut? I'm serious.
Em Schulz: Chestnut. Chestnut.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Chestnut. You were right.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that old hazelnut. Oh that old garbanzo bean. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That old lentil.
Christine Schiefer: I think I've lost my mind.
Em Schulz: None of us are ever going to afford these big estates that have a cool name, and but we but here's the thing, we all deserve a cool estate with a cool name, so...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Everybody just take take heed. Uh. I've, I've been running with Schulzforth Manor for a few years now. It's going great in case you needed a review. Uh. I suggest you do it too, so what should the... What should your house be?
Christine Schiefer: Probably the Schlampugnale Mansion?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, uh I'm trying to think. So right now, our our WiFi, which actually I'm gonna say here because I've actually decided recently to change it because...
Em Schulz: Oh great.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. For other reasons but uh 'cause we're getting a new router, Em has seen that, it's not very interesting. My WiFi is uh atrocious, but uh we it's currently Gio's Haus, H-A-U-S, which is what it's been since Blaise and I have ever lived together like through every apartment in LA, um so it's Gio's Haus, which just feels very fitting, you know but I don't know, part of me kinda wants... Like you said, kind of wants you know a more a austere, a more regal name. But um Schlampugnale just, like, oh, the lamp. Oh, that's what I call my bird house. I forgot to tell you. I feel like I've meant to tell you this every episode we've recorded for two years, so you know I have that bird buddy where it takes pictures of birds, so that I call and nobody thinks it's funny. I feel like you're the only one who will get it, I call it the Lamp, wait, the Lamp Mansion, because instead of the Lemp, or wait, is it the Lemp Mansion?
Em Schulz: I love it. Lemp Mansion. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Lemp Manor. Or is it Lemp Manor?
Em Schulz: Lemp Mansion I think.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: I think... I get it. I get that.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I call... But I call it the Lamp Man-Manor or Mansion, and it's extra funny 'cause it's a tiny little bird house, uh but I always thought that was so clever...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: So now, is your house now just gonna be called the bigger Lamp...
Christine Schiefer: The Lamp Mansion.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, 'cause that also seems very silly and A and B... Well, I didn't say A or B, but C, I feel like people are going to be like, oh, your mansion, okay, like it's not a mansion you know. So I'm like, I don't know, I feel like I need to come up with... But my house isn't small enough for it to be funny that it's called mansion, almost feels like I'm just saying it's a mansion, which it's not, so...
Em Schulz: But then you can just... You don't have to say like mansion is, that's what we use, manor...
Christine Schiefer: Manor is good.
Em Schulz: The reason, the reason we use manor though is because we were jealous of... Actually, this is full circle because recently, um uh Shannen Doherty passed away, who played Prue Halliwell on Charmed, and I was always so jealous that the Halliwell sisters would say like, oh, I'm just at the manor or I'll meet you back at the manor, and they're just talking about their fucking house. And so uh when Allison and I lived like in Pasadena or something, all the way at the beginning of our relationship, I was like, man, one day you and I gotta have a manor, and then we just started calling wherever we lived the manor.
Christine Schiefer: Yes!
Em Schulz: So for five years, it's been an apartment and now it's gonna be this tiny little cottage. Um.
Christine Schiefer: There's like villa or estate.
Em Schulz: I think if you're gonna expand from Gio's Home or Gio's Haus, you just elongate it Giovanni Homestead or something...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh! Homestead is good 'cause we're in Kentucky, that feels a little bit like Wild West you know.
Em Schulz: I'm trying to think of other words. The, the Hermitage...
Christine Schiefer: So somebody...
Em Schulz: 'Cause, 'cause if you're an introvert, you are always home anyway like a hermit...
Christine Schiefer: The Hermit's Hermitage. Her name's Christine. That'll what is what I write? Uh, the, the, uh, oh my gosh. Christine, where is your brain? Umm, the something...
Em Schulz: It's at the Homestead.
Christine Schiefer: I left it at the homestead again. Uh, I completely forget. It was gonna be so interesting, I promise. But, umm, I totally forget [laughter] Uh, so that's nice.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm gonna go with Giovanni Homestead until further notice. So you...
Christine Schiefer: I like that. I like that.
Em Schulz: You do what you gotta do.
Christine Schiefer: Very much. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Remember when I was gonna tell a story?
Christine Schiefer: No, but yeah, let's go back to that. You're right, you're right, you're right.
Em Schulz: Okay. From the Giovanni Homestead and the Schulzforth Manor we're gonna talk about Sturdivant Hall. This is in Selma, Alabama.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Which, uh, fun fact, Selma, Alabama is like one of the most haunted cities, allegedly. It's also like like well...
Christine Schiefer: Has a quiet a pass to it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Sure does [laughter] and, uh, but apparently in Alabama, Selma is like the hotspot. If you want to go to like a, a haunted city in Alabama, You go to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for ghost. Ooh, interesting. Okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Umm, so in Selma, Alabama, this is in the 1850s, uh, which was not a great time historically. Umm, a mansion was built for Colonel Edward Watts and his family. And the mansion cost only $69,000 at the time. Today that would be 2.6 million. Umm, so this is a, an actual manor.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, each floor, this place was like very swanky. It had, each floor had a 60 foot long porch. It had columns, it had Italian marble where they literally brought Italian people in to do the marble, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And then, and it had air conditioning back in the 1850s.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was when like, a bunch of people would just stand there and blow on you, and you were like, this is, this is air conditioning the good old way?
Em Schulz: Uh, this is where I think you would just, yeah. I, I don't, I actually don't. I was gonna make a joke that wouldn't have actually landed at all. Uh, yours is better. I like that. Yeah. People just blowing on you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Thank you so much for acknowledging that.
Em Schulz: So this place had originally just 10 rooms, but it was 6,000 square feet, which I don't understand. Okay. So this is one of the things that Allison and I don't understand. We love Selling Sunset, and its sequel Selling BOC, umm, where they show you like all these big McMansions in California, and some of them it's like $30 million houses and five bedrooms. And I'm like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. Like, what are you talking about? I'm gonna spend $30 million...
Christine Schiefer: Huh.
Em Schulz: For me and like my two kids to have a guest room. What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, I was gonna say, you know, that your kids, if you're, that, if you're spending that kind of dough, are not sharing a fucking room in a bunk bed.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Like, they're getting a whole rock wall and shit in their room. So it's probably like gigantic rooms where they get like, I don't know. Of course my only, my, this is so embarrassing, my only like, grasp of what is luxury at that age as a teenager is like Pottery Barn Catalog, because my...
Em Schulz: I literally was gonna say Pottery Barn Catalog. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause my mom could never, like, we could never afford it. So she was always like, so I would circle so many things just like, as what I wanted. And then one time, okay, one time it was really special, and I feel like I never thanked her for this, but one time she went through and she like picked three things and like, saved up a bunch of money and bought me up my purple dresser and uh...
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Wow.
Christine Schiefer: A a purple quilt that I really wanted. Like, it was expensive and, uh, a little rug. And I remember being like...
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: This is my bedroom is the most luxurious room in all. I mean, I was literally living in like inner cities inside...
Em Schulz: In Sturdivant Hall, by the way. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Living. But suddenly I was living in Sturdivant Hall, and I felt on top of the world. Anyway, so yeah, $30 million for five bedrooms. I'm like, what, how much, how many giant stuffed bears from Pottery Barn can you fit in there? 'cause that's, that's my only measure.
Em Schulz: Oh they they spit on Pottery Barn I...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh I know. Isn't that embarrassing? I'm like, that's luxury. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, so Pottery Barn, my mom, I remember her actually letting me go through a catalog and she was like, circle what you want and I'll I'm gonna get you something from there. And she ended up, ended up getting me a bedspread that I still have in the house to this day.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: It's the, the blue tie dye that I use as my background when I'm there.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: And damn. It's still a, it's a great blanket.
Christine Schiefer: That...
Em Schulz: They don't, they don't make things like they did during Pottery Barn's, kids era, you know.
Christine Schiefer: In 2005. No, they certainly don't. That fucking purple quilt. I mean, listen, it's nothing compared to a good old Grandma Pam quilt, but I hadn't met her yet. Uh, so that purple quilt I had was about it, but the, oh my God. It was, it was like purple with light green and it had like, all these butterfly, I mean, it was just the girliest thing of all time.
Em Schulz: We really had the, umm, yeah, green, like neon green or lime green was really in back then. So was the like sky blue, like a.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Pastel blue.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Where were we?
Christine Schiefer: What were you saying?
Em Schulz: Air conditioning [laughter] this...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, that's luxurious too. I, I, uh...
Em Schulz: This...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: This place had air conditioning and it... Oh, here, this is what it was. It said it had 10 rooms, which I guess for $2.6 million, 10 rooms is pretty nice compared to the $30 million five bedroom. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: So is this 10 rooms or 10 bedrooms? 'cause that also makes a big difference because if there's a...
Em Schulz: Oh, you're totally right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, if there's a rec room, like that's a room that's not bedroom, you know.
Em Schulz: You're right. It could be like one room's, like the kitchen, like to some of 'em could be very necessary rooms. I hadn't even thought about that.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay. Well anyway, it was designed by local architect Homp Thomas Helm Lee.
Christine Schiefer: Homp?
Em Schulz: Helm, sorry, I was...
Christine Schiefer: You literally said Homp Thomas. And I was like, what a name. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was...
Christine Schiefer: It was designed by Homp.
Em Schulz: My throat did something, but no, it's just Thomas Helm Lee who, uh, yikes is the cousin of Robert E. Lee. Fun fact. I don't know how fun that is. But Robert E. Lee was, you know, it's the 1850s, about to be the 1860s. It's gonna be a...
Christine Schiefer: He was a man about town.
Em Schulz: A a big era for Robert E. Lee. Umm, whether or not you like it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, in 1864, uh, the Watts family who the house was originally built for, they ended up moving and, uh, they sold the mansion to John McGee. I did not mess up that one. John McGee Parkman. Umm, he bought it for $65,000, which is less than the $69,000. So I don't, I don't know what that means, but for, in case you care about that stuff, uh, John McGee Parkman, he would be the future president of the First National Bank of the city of Selma. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: By 29 by the way. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But, but then again, like the, they were, people were president by like eight years old or something. So I don't know how impressive it was.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, everyone's at Harvard and Co... In in preschool. It is fine. Yeah. [laughter] It's a big fucking whoop.
Em Schulz: It's like dual enrollment that they've got going on. [laughter] Um.
Christine Schiefer: Dual dual enrollment. They're all, no wonder everyone stands in the quad and screams. I would be, they're Todd. They're literal toddlers. Give them a fruit pouch. God dammit. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Do you ever feel day have days where you just feel so manic and you're like, nothing I do is calming my manic episode.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And I, I...
Em Schulz: Hey, hey yes.
Christine Schiefer: I say, I don't say that lightly. I don't say that lightly. Uh, my therapist said that's something else we can discuss on Monday. So anyway, wish me luck.
Em Schulz: I've told you about the thing that, uh, I. What was the...
Christine Schiefer: Yes I can't stop thinking about it.
Em Schulz: Because I think it's, I think it's, I think...
Christine Schiefer: It's so real.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh yeah. Of course I've been...
Christine Schiefer: I'm shocked I didn't get my head shaved at the hairdresser today. I'm like, wow. Uh, I'm off...
Em Schulz: I've been...
Christine Schiefer: Off my rocker today.
Em Schulz: I've been diagnosing Christine behind the scenes with a lot of things and I'm just like...
Christine Schiefer: So many.
Em Schulz: It's like throwing noodles at the wall to see what sticks. So I'm like just kind of saying things to see what her therapist thinks. It's a tag team deal.
Christine Schiefer: It's... Yeah. It's noodles all the way to the top. And it, that's in a literal way where Em has thrown so many noodles that now this, the room one of the many 10 rooms is just fucking noodles.
Em Schulz: Now you're just... You might as well just be in the pot of pasta at this point. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm in the noodle room. Umm, and I live there now. I think I'm becoming noodle.
Em Schulz: Well, be careful 'cause you might end up in a real noodle room.
Christine Schiefer: I, uh, [laughter] send me to the noodle room. I swear to God I've lost my mind. I'm so sorry. I'm gonna shut up. I'm so sorry. I know I'm pissing so many people off right now.
Em Schulz: Not me. I'm the one that...
Christine Schiefer: And do you know what I got out? I got a notebook so I can just doodle, like, draw circles while you talk, so I can just shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: Actually, that's a lovely idea. Let's both doodle.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that fun just to doodle? Well, because I'm like, otherwise I'm fidgeting with my hair and stuff.
Em Schulz: I'll doodle afterwards. I, I forgot I have to read the notes. [laughter] Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Aw man. Wait, wait. So the, wait, so what if at the end of the episode we share our doodles?
Em Schulz: That's great.
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't that be fun?
Em Schulz: I don't even wanna show you my doodles because I already know what your doodles are gonna be. It's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, here it is. It's, it's beau. It's beautiful [laughter] Yeah. Does that seem like something that you want to compete with [laughter]?
Em Schulz: It's gonna be that one fucking doodle. You always draw on...
Christine Schiefer: Fine art. Oh, I do do that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Christine draws this very... No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Christine draws a very inappropriate stick figure situation and only draws it [laughter] to show it to me. When we're on...
Christine Schiefer: At the most opportune times...
Em Schulz: Live TV, when we're...
Christine Schiefer: It's only on live TV when we're in the same room together.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's only when we're, there have been a few times where we've been interviewed on like, on the news, and I'm literally, it's live. There's no editing this. And Christine thinks it's so funny.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It is.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: To, to, to draw the most inappropriate things and then just slide them over. I can't even, and like now, I, at first I was like, oh, I just won't look down because I know what's happening. I'm just not gonna look down and engage. [laughter] But the way that she slyly moves it over, that movement alone gets me. And like...
Christine Schiefer: And it's always while I'm, while I'm talking. So I'm like, you know, that's what I like to say about, uh, our show and the pa the history of how we've been touring. And I just start sliding it over. And like, that's what makes you the most crazy is like, I'm just totally fucking blank staring and talking as if nothing's going on. And suddenly you have to look at this atrocity of creation.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: I'm just thinking about all the times. 'cause I know you're doing it. It's so fucking mean too, because you're doing it.
Christine Schiefer: It is, it is mean. I agree.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You're doing it knowing that by the time I react, they're asking me a question. So now I'm totally thrown. 'cause they're asking me a question. I'm not even hearing it because I'm too busy seeing what's just been what came outta your brain. I can't tell anyone.
Christine Schiefer: That's okay. I'm, I'm like, oh, I'll take that one. Em's a little nervous today. I'll take that one.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You have, you have done that.
Christine Schiefer: I have take that... Taken that one. I'm like, oh, let me answer that for you. [laughter] Umm...
Em Schulz: It's like, it's just like, I know to everybody else, it's like anyone watching it would be like, wow. Christine's like so kind to like take care of their nervous co-host. And it's, it's like you almost set me up to just not be able to do the news. You're just like, oh, I've, don't worry. You could just be here while I do this. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like a literal Anchorman where I made the teleprompter a picture.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Of that stick figure. Next time we ever go anywhere, I'm gonna pull a fun prank where I tell the teleprompter people to actually just put that picture up and see [laughter], see what happens. Like, oh, on Em's turn Em likes to see this picture before they start talking. It's like a nervous thing.
Em Schulz: They're gonna put me in the noodle room if they fucking think I like that stuff. And like should see is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I feel like I'm the ultimate villain. And it is such a powerful feeling.
Em Schulz: And no one will ever believe me. That's the sickest part. 'cause there's no evidence. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: There's n, there's none. Even this admission of evidence won't count. 'cause I'll say hearsay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It w... It's like declaring bankruptcy.
Christine Schiefer: I'll say, uh, I was declaring bankruptcy also. I was in a mana, a miniature man, manic state. So you can't, you can't take anything I say, you know, truthfully. So who knows?
Em Schulz: I, you, this is literally, I don't know how we can't get through a single story today. This is...
Christine Schiefer: I dunno.
Em Schulz: Umm, I really, I keep trying for people who are mad and stop listening. I don't know what to tell you. This is me making an effort. Umm, so let's try again.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: 1864 the Watts have moved and they sold it to John Parkman, who was the future president of the National Bank. Umm, right before he became president, or right after he became president, he was arrested for allegedly embezzling federal deposits, like straight out of the bank.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And this c-caused an uproar in favor of him because everyone who knew him was like, he literally wouldn't do that. He's an honest guy. Which...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, because he's...
Em Schulz: I don't know how true it was.
Christine Schiefer: Probably giving them all the money he's embezzling. You know, like, he's like, loan for you, loan for you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't know how true, I don't know the real story, but people were mad. That's all that is important here. And so his friends who thought he was like innocent and not gonna get a fair trial, they hatch a plan to help him escape jail.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He goes to jail. His friends are like, I don't like what I see. And they hatch a plan to get him out of there. They organize a parade in front of the jail to distract the guards.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Genius.
Em Schulz: My friends would never, my friends would ne my... You would be like, well, I hope you you have fun in there.
Christine Schiefer: As as your friend I would never.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Actually, you know what I would do? I would probably throw the parade and then forget why we're throwing the parade and be like this...
Em Schulz: You would have too much fun at the parade.
Christine Schiefer: This is so fun. I wish Em were here. And then I'd be like, oh shit. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You'd go no.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. But then I'd be distracted again by like a balloon animal or something. So it's fine.
Em Schulz: A cat that ran by. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they hatch a plan. My friends could never, and honestly I don't think I could either. Uh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Let's be real.
Em Schulz: They make, they just, they make this thing to distract the guards. One guard ain't so slick, uh, or wait is too slick for it. And he thought you aren't slick. Umm, he spots John trying to escape, but he must have known. He was like, something's fishy about this random impromptu parade [laughter], uh, what's going on. And then looked around and he saw someone trying to escape. So he chases after John Parkman to the nearby river where a steamboat was apparently waiting for him. That was the second part of the plan. Not only did they plan a parade, they planned a steamboat to pick him up when he ran to the river.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine a getaway steamboat that feels like so counterproductive. 'cause aren't they so fucking slow?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. Also, like, where are all these type A friends that he's got that are like planning...
Christine Schiefer: Seriously?
Em Schulz: So many things serious.
Christine Schiefer: Who's organizing this fucking thing?
Em Schulz: Uh, so he gets to the water and at this point we don't know what happens. We don't know if, because the cop and him, if they were in pursuit, did the cop shoot him and he fell into the river? Did he dive into the river? And he was like caught by the current of the steamboat and like he went under and drowned. Did he? Like, we don't know what happened, but at the end of the day, once he got to the river, he got into the water and he died.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. Okay.
Em Schulz: Regardless, uh, he, he passed and his family did not live in the family home for much longer because I guess during the embezzlement allegations, he ended up losing a bunch of money around the same time. Umm, and or he lost a bunch of money 'cause he was probably embezzling, couldn't like recoup it.
Christine Schiefer: Because it wasn't his money. [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, so his family couldn't live in the house for much longer. They ended up auctioning it. Yikes. It was for like, it was worth like the, in the 60 thousands. And they auctioned it for 12,000...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: To a man named Emil Gilman. And the Gilmans lived here for generations. They ended up living here until the, until 1957. And they bought the house in 1870. So almost a hundred years.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: So, uh, the Gilman's lived here for that long. They ended up selling it, actually making more than anyone else. They sold it for $75,000, which unheard of at the time, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: And it was largely purchased actually by the estate of a man named Robert Sturdivant, umm, who was a local. And he wanted it to be, he want, or his foundation wanted this house to become a museum in the town. So his foundation bought the house when it was for sale. It became a museum. It joined the National Register of Historic places in the '70s. And it is now run by the Sturdivant Museum Association, which is maintained by the city. So the city takes care of the building. It is a top tourist attraction i-in the area and quote, one of the finest examples of neoclassical architecture in the south.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la.
Em Schulz: And the grounds take up a whole city block. Uh, so it's also like a big event space. And very pretty, and a lot of weddings there, things like that. So here are the ghosts, uh, like I said, Selma's, one of Alabama's oldest and most haunted cities. And uh, so that adds to the fact that this house happens to be in that kind of area. In 1870, when the house was auctioned, John, the one who died in the river, his apparition began appearing on the grounds.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. He's like, I want my house back.
Em Schulz: He's like, please don't sell it for that cheap, please God, don't sell it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Edna, what were you thinking? [laughter] Sorry, I don't know his wife's name, but it has to be Edna, right?
Em Schulz: I it has, yeah. I... Yes.
Christine Schiefer: No doubt.
Em Schulz: Uh. Uh, allegedly before he died, or no, allegedly before he went to jail umm, and he was, he had been arrested. He swore he would never leave, uh, the town until his name was cleared. And I guess because he died and his name was never cleared. The story is that he still haunts this house.
Christine Schiefer: That's like a dangerous threat because like now you have to stick to it. Right? He's like...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: I actually, I'd rather leave. And they're like, you promised you'd stick around.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: Umm, so sometimes he's on scene on the grounds, uh, even wearing formal attire if there is an event being held. So he has a fucking ghost closet.
Christine Schiefer: Holy...
Em Schulz: And he is sentient enough to know, oh, today is a black tie kind of day.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, he would never commit the faux pas of wearing khaki shorts to a wedding, you know.
Em Schulz: In his own home. That's what I don't see. They always say the like, oh, whatever clothing you're wearing. Remember like, if you die today, that's your ghost clothes. And like right now, my ghost clothes are me in underwear and a dirty T-shirt. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's, yeah. That's probably most of us to be honest.
Em Schulz: And I do wonder, I'm like, if I died, is that how I, like what outfit does my, does my ghost get to go to some like ethereal closet when I die and I get to pick out the thing? Or do I get to switch them out? Am I really in the last thing I wore as a human? I don't know what the rules are?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I always wonder if it's that or if it's also like the thing you wore the most, you know, like your uniform or like the thing you were like most...
Em Schulz: So underwear and a dirty T-shirt. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. So honestly, Em that's been cemented for you. I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: God, everyone's gonna see my legs if once I go I do. But I do, but here's the thing too. So multiple people in my family have seen my grandfather after he passed, he was an amputee. And uh, they all see him with his leg. So like, did he get to pick the leg or is this like, what happened?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I've heard, I've heard, and I don't know if this is true, in fact, you'll never believe this. Nobody knows if it's true. But I've heard that when somebody passes, oftentimes they come back in a younger form, almost like at their most vital, like at their, where their vitality was the highest or like their happiest or their most, umm, [laughter] I hate to say like iconic time period. [laughter] So like people will often come back like younger and you know, maybe in their 30s or, you know, and with a lot of times health ailments have been healed. Uh, so yeah, that seems to be a, a pretty common thing. I've heard that a lot of times about amputees, which is so interesting.
Em Schulz: Let's test it. And, umm, you figure out an outfit I should wear when I go to show, show up again in and we'll see if, like...
Christine Schiefer: I love, I love that that's the test. 'cause then you show up in front of me and you're wearing a dirty T-shirt and underwear and I'm like, nope, that's not Em that's not the outfit we agreed upon. So... [laughter] Sorry.
Em Schulz: Well, I'm saying if we picked something so ridiculous now, then at least if I am wearing that thing, that would've never even come to my mind alone, then we'll know like, oh, I was able to choose my outfit to see you. Like I got dolled up for you.
Christine Schiefer: I understand. I understand. Okay. Yeah. So then if I see you in the underwear, I'll be like, oh, sucks man, we don't get to pick our outfit.
Em Schulz: Yes, exactly. But if I'm wearing like a bunny costume or something.
Christine Schiefer: Now there... No, don't do that. That would really scare me. Uh, can we do like a feather boa that feels like less...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Less threatening because I feel like the Donny Darko vibe is not for me, you know?
Em Schulz: Okay, perfect. So I'll be in a feather boa. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: And you're underwear. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: All right. Pants and a feather boa. Fine.
Em Schulz: And a shirt. Just so we're all clear. I'll be...
Christine Schiefer: And a shirt.
Em Schulz: In full clothes, full clothes as well as a feather boa. Uh modest is hottest. Umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: That's always, and Em has always said that.
Em Schulz: I have always had that. Umm, and we'll test it. So now I just have to die first. Great. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Easy.
Em Schulz: Where are we? Easy. [laughter] It's not, probably not even gonna be that hard. Okay, so... [laughter] So, so he's seen on the grounds in formula attire, apparently at a few fancy functions that were hosted here people have seen him literally in a top hat and they're probably like, dude, you don't wear that all the time. What are you doing? Well you just got your little ghost closet?
Christine Schiefer: This is, this is the bride's day. Why are you overshadowing her literally with a giant top hat? Like, put that away.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes. He is also felt heaviest in the parlor as well as one of the upstairs bedrooms, which I saw from some sources that it's his bedroom. But other sources said it was his daughter's bedroom. So I don't know [0:48:03.7] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you'd just be able to tell by the, by the, uh, upholstery on the furniture. The, the quilts on the bed. The bedspread. Is it a car shaped bed? You know, there's a couple ways you could tell.
Em Schulz: Or is like, Harry Styles... Does he like have a bunch of posters...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: On the ceiling. [laughter] Uh, also because since episode one, I've never been able to pronounce this cupola.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, don't ask me. 'cause ever since episode one, I feel like I've lost any confidence in how I say that word.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, apparently he's seen in that because of course his building has one.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Uh, but he likes to stand there and view, uh, the, the grounds. I guess. People have also seen impressions in the beds as if someone was sitting there and the blankets are all disheveled. Objects will disappear and then reappear, pictures on the walls will tilt themselves. Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, women in period clothing, uh, wander the garden. Shutters will lock themselves overnight, which can only be, or can unlock themselves overnight, which can only be done inside the house. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's icky. That feels like someone's been like, you know, messing with stuff inside like a, like an actual intruder. I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I never know. I'm like, are the ghosts like, why is this locked? Let me just unlock it so I can look outside. Or are they, is it malevolent? It's like, He, he, he, I want you to know I was here.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Or is it just like, or is it a, a me ghost where I'm just nosy and I'm just like, what's going on over here? Yeah. And then I also have ADHD, so I forgot to clean up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you forgot to close it again. Or is it like residual where it's like every day they would just open the, you know, blinds. And sometimes it'll happen on repeat. I don't know.
Em Schulz: So many reasons for a locked shutter.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, beautiful.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I'm sure there's a poem about that somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: I'll write you a limerick later.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Chairs will rock on their own doors open and close locked doors apparently have been seen flying open. Yikes. [laughter] Uh, window latches come undone. Uh, the, the alarms will get set off in the middle of the night. Footsteps are heard upstairs and they always stop at the staircase and then continue towards the bedrooms.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: People hear children laughing and running around. And like, in my mind that I'm like, what children? And basically there is these two little girls spirits that people see standing by a window and people assume that they're John's daughters, but they could also be relatives of the Gilman family because the Gilman's were here for like a hundred years.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. True.
Em Schulz: In in the same window people have been pushed, umm, not out of the window, but near the window.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And people have also seen a massive cloud of smoke as if a fire had been started in the house. But when the fire department gets there, there's nothing there.
Christine Schiefer: Ew, ew. A mysterious cloud of smoke. I don't like that either.
Em Schulz: It's all in the same window.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what?
Em Schulz: But the, the little kids that stare outta that window, it has been reported a million times that there are people who will walk by and be like, there's little kids in that window. There's little kids in that window. Or people like have had security go up there and check because they knew it was like closed off for an event. And they saw kids up there and thought it was their kids. And they're like, can you go up there and check? Like there's someone's kid is up there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh crap.
Em Schulz: And no one's up there.
Christine Schiefer: Crap. That is scary. Why? No.
Em Schulz: People have seen flashes of light. The caretakers who live on the grounds, they report seeing doors open and shut all the time. They report the alarms going off all the time. They have big temperatures changes. So like a really warm room becomes freezing cold. And then there was one time they had an exterminator come out and the exterminator was up by that one window and he got shoved. And that was the first time that anyone got pushed there. Uh, one time the...
Christine Schiefer: It was just like a really tall, it was like a bunch of ants in a trench coat. They were like... [laughter] They were like, I've seen you. They warned me about your type. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Here's the problem because if you really do think you're in the middle of an episode, I kind of don't want it to change because you're so fucking on it right now.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, should I write a book real quick? I don't know. Should I say something fun? Should I make it unhinged TikTok real quick? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Uh, with love in this moment, please don't stop this because you are literally so on fire right now.
Christine Schiefer: And my therapist will love to hear that. Uh, that, I'm sorry, I'm not, I'm not getting better actually.
Em Schulz: Okay. Uh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's for content I'll tell her.
Em Schulz: Just say it's like it's for the it's for my art. It's for my art.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I'm a tortured artist. Can't you tell?
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] So uh one time... [laughter] Ants in a trench coat is literally so iconic.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the dumbest thing I've ever said. [laughter] Well, actually, no. Everyone's like, no. We can think of 400 more dumb things you said, but [laughter] it's up there.
Em Schulz: Uh, one time the mansion had a painting sitting out, which flew off the easel and dropped by itself, apparently in front of children, which I love to think that there were just screaming children who...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Witnessed a poltergeist. When strange things do happen, the staff will just apparently say hi to John to like, give him attention. And then the activity subsides. Love that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he just wants to be acknowledged. I get it.
Em Schulz: I would totally be that ghost. I'd be like, hello? No one said hello in a while. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: They're Like getting married. You're wandering around like, hello, anyone? Can I have a little, a little credit here? I built this place.
Em Schulz: I'm telling you now, Allison's gonna have to hire an exorcist when I go, because every five seconds I'm still gonna be like, do you love me? Do you love me? [laughter] And...
Christine Schiefer: You're gonna be like.
Em Schulz: She's gonna...
Christine Schiefer: Aw, we're out of chocolate milk. Aw, are you sure you wanna watch this show?
Em Schulz: I'll be like, I noticed that you didn't leave an offering for me today. [laughter] What's that about? What's that about?
Christine Schiefer: My shrine is a little emptier than usual.
Em Schulz: The picture that you have of me is dusty. It's almost as if I've been forgotten. I don't like that.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Allison would never. I would because I...
Em Schulz: She absolutely would.
Christine Schiefer: Don't know how to clean. But I feel like Allison's a cleaner person than I am. But.
Em Schulz: Let's put it this way, Allison's responsibility in this house is to dust. That woman does not dust. [laughter] She does not dust. You know what? We split up responsibilities. And uh, and the second I said, okay, Allison, now you do the dusting. She hired a cleaner.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: That's what she did.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's the way to do it. That you're like, that's my responsibility. Got it. I will outsource, I will delegate.
Em Schulz: She went, ew. No, I'm not doing that. And so, uh, yeah, if I ever die and a picture of me is out, if I'm lucky, I don't know about, I don't know. We'll see. She's gonna hire someone else to dust it. And you know what? That's why I'm gonna haunt her. So, I hope.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I think that's like, you should probably hope she doesn't dust it. 'cause it feels like your plot.
Em Schulz: She better hope she does dust it. 'cause I'm gonna... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But it feels like you're ready. You're like, you know, you're like primed to be mad about it. So like, you're just like, I'm ready.
Em Schulz: The energy's already building in me.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: And I'm not even on the other side yet. Umm, but, uh, every night, every night I tuck her in and the days where she doesn't dust the picture of me and in memoriam I'll just rip the blankets off. I'll be like, you know what that was for.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Be like get up. Get the Swiffer.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or, because I'm all, I, I can be toxic. I'll just rip the blankets off even when she has dusted that day, and she'll just have to kind of like, wonder like, what, what happened that day? What, what happened?
Christine Schiefer: And you'll just say, you know what you did. And that'll just haunt her. That'll haunt her.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And she has no idea that that poor girl. She's like, I don't know, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] There's probably nothing you just said it to, to mess with her head. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I just wanted attention. Yeah, I just...
Christine Schiefer: I know your I know your little games. You're just like, this top hat fella.
Em Schulz: Hee-hee-hee, hee-hee-hee, I, yes. I'm I'm the hat man. Okay, so one time the mansion had a painting. It flew off the easel probably because it wasn't getting dusted. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter] Oh, oh, shit. Wow. Okay. You're getting a little into character here.
Em Schulz: [laughter] When strange things do happen, people say hello to make the activity subside. Allison will try this, it will not work. Umm, some people believe that John is haunting the area because he's actually buried in the yard. I did not, I don't know about that.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Specifically he's buried in the back in the Scuppernong Orchard.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, pardon, par... Pardon.
Em Schulz: Well, fun fact, apparently that's not true. He's actually for sure buried in Live Oak Cemetery now back to the Scuppernong shit. So, umm, I looked up Scuppernongs. Apparently they're a type of green grape from North Carolina with a bitter seed inside. Fun fact, there's no such thing as a seedless Scuppernong.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: They're a big deal in the South. They're actually North Carolina's state fruit.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man, I'm so embarrassed. I was just there in that state. I had no idea.
Em Schulz: They make Scuppernong wine.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask. That was obviously my next question.
Em Schulz: And it was, it's like apparently, I mean, I I I, you know, people are always very 50/50 on whether or not Virginia is the South, but we are directly next to North Carolina. And I feel like I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Which has the word North in its name. I'm just saying.
Em Schulz: I you are just saying thank you for saying. Oh my God. Useful. But, umm, I've, I've like really not heard of Scuppernongs before and.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was gonna ask 'cause I was about to be really embarrassed, but if you haven't heard of them either, that makes me feel a little bit better.
Em Schulz: So, umm, apparently it's, they've been mentioned in "To Kill a Mockingbird". Apparently it's been mentioned in North Carolina's Official State Toast, which fun fact. North Carolina's the only state with an Official State Toast.
Christine Schiefer: Until now. Because I am starting a petition [laughter] I need that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, here, here is the toast that, uh, Scuppernongs are mentioned in for North Carolina. Here's to the land of the cotton bloom white where the Scuppernong perfumes the breeze at night.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you meant a piece of bread. I thought you meant a piece of bread a toast.
Em Schulz: Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I literally did. I was like, wow. Like avocado toast is for California. And I thought they put like Scuppernong jam jam on it. I'm so embarrassed right now. I was like, why are you saying a poem about the toast? You weirdo [laughter] Oh my God, I'm so unwell. Okay, I'm so sorry. It's a toast. Like, like cheers.
Em Schulz: Like a, Like a cheers.
Christine Schiefer: God dammit. I need help. Okay. Sorry. I'm like, [0:58:02.5] ____.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, uh, your your state toast would just be crumbs apparently. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm like, I would eat that weird, uh, that weird, uh, oh my God. It's this gross shit...
Em Schulz: It's.
Christine Schiefer: My grandpa used to eat like anchovy fish paste or something, you know.
Em Schulz: Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: No, apparently I think the Christine state toast would be, umm, when ants in a trench coat, eat it. All, all away... [laughter] That would be.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] But it's just covered. It's half eaten and covered in ants. That's my state toast. [laughter] Yeah. I am so sorry, Em I know I interrupted in the middle of your beautiful, eloquent speech. So please, please go ahead.
Em Schulz: Ding ding ding. Here's to the land of the cotton bloom white, where the Scuppernong perfumes the breeze at night, where the soft southern moss and jessamine mate, meet the murmuring pieces of the old north state beneath the murmuring pines of the old North state. So, uh, yes, North Carolina is the only one with a state toast. So maybe all.
Christine Schiefer: That was that was beautiful.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Maybe all 49 Others also thought that, you know, there's state foods, right? So like a state toast.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: That makes sense. Umm, oh yeah, they're the only one. And then I was like, well, if Scuppernong is their state fruit, what's everyone else's state fruits.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, uh, apparently, I I just looked up the places we live. California. Do you know what our state fruit is? It is very obvious. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: An orange.
Em Schulz: An avocado.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Did you forget that avocados are fruit?
Christine Schiefer: No. I just like thought maybe that was, I I just assumed most of them in the that make oranges are orange.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause Florida, you know, but, umm, okay. Yeah. So the avocado. That makes sense.
Em Schulz: Do you know what Kentucky is?
Christine Schiefer: Kentucky? Oh God. Uh, state fruit. Umm, a pear. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Blackberry.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: And then for fun, I looked up Ohio and Virginia. We have the same state fruit.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up. Is it a cardinal? 'cause that's the same state bird we both have too. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's actually toast. [laughter] No, I'm just kidding. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, state fruit of, did you know this about your state before?
Em Schulz: I did not know this.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, uh, let me guess. An apple. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, well, so I always thought, and this is Fredericksburg's, uh, my like town, our fruit is the pear. And so I just assumed in.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or all of Virginia was a pear.
Christine Schiefer: And there's like pear trees in both our states. That's what I would've guessed.
Christine Schiefer: Or like George Washington chopped down the cherry tree. So maybe the state fruit is cherries. Uh, 'cause it happened in Virginia. Sorry, for context. Umm, the, they say that he, he lived in Virginia. He chopped down a cherry tree. So I thought maybe cherries were the state fruit. Fun fact though it was not a cherry tree. It was a pear tree and it was in Fredericksburg. And also it's not true.
Christine Schiefer: Take that.
Em Schulz: Umm, take that. No, it's a paw paw.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Those stink.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Hillbilly mango.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] It's a hillbilly mango.
Em Schulz: It looks like mango. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: No it does.
Em Schulz: Anyway, so those are the four states I'll be mentioning for state fruits. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Love that. Love that.
Em Schulz: I, I think I'm most excited about Kentucky be, I love a blackberry. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: It's Leona's favorite food right now. So she's really uh nailing it.
Em Schulz: Ugh her and I have incredible taste.
Christine Schiefer: You both do. She literally eats tomatoes like an apple just like you. And I'm like, this is disgusting.
Em Schulz: So get this, apparently Ohio's state fruit is a paw paw, but people often confuse it with a tomato. So technically you have two state fruits that people recognize. And it's a tomato.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Ohio you, like, they confuse the paw paw with a tomato, or they just think that it's a tomato...
Em Schulz: No. I I think it must have changed at some point.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And like old school people stick with tomato. I don't totally understand.
Christine Schiefer: I was like Ohio's embarrassing, but like a tomato looks nothing like a paw. I was like, this is sad. We don't, we need better school lunches, is what I'm gonna say.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I mean, if they were saying mango, that would make sense, but.
Christine Schiefer: It would make sense. Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: So that's, I I don't know how much information you actually gathered about Sturdivant Hall, but that's, that's me talking about it, the end.
Christine Schiefer: I thought It was great. I'm sorry that I fucking interrupted 4,000 times, which also is part and parcel when you say, oh, this is a short story. And I go, all righty, here we go. Umm, so I do apologize.
Em Schulz: No, I like it.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so thank you Em. Wow. I have a story for you today. Umm, it's actually, I think a, well I say this now, a bit shorter than usual as well. Umm, but I, again, I can't quite promise that. Umm, but I will tell you, you know how I did that? Absolutely Noodles all the way to the top story that two-parter recently.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: This one is also one of the wildest rides. I'm like, is this real life? Like, I, I like, I...
Em Schulz: I can't wait.
Christine Schiefer: Feel, I feel like it's not real life and it starts kind of slow. So bear with me because there's a lot of backstory. But I also would like you to, if possible, just kind of try and follow Gargoyle style. But if you don't know who's who, there's a Juan and a Jose. And sometimes like, 'cause the J names I get mixed up if there...
Em Schulz: Well, I'm, I'm very good with J names after the Duggars, so we're gonna be okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. You know. Yeah. You're like, those are nothing alike, Christine. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So let me know if there's anything you are unclear on. Please.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause it I'm probably making it. I don't know. I don't know. So we're gonna start on November 7th, 2002. 16-year-old Martha Puebla was at home in Sun Valley, Los Angeles when a friend knocked on her window. Martha opened the window and started chatting with her friend. And the friend had been brought there by her boyfriend, Christian Vargas. And Christian Vargas was nearby in his car. He dropped her off the friend and waited in the car while they chatted through the window. Suddenly both girls heard gunshots. And Martha's friend who was talking to Martha through the window, just like basically instinctually, I guess, jumped through the window and hid from the gunshots.
Em Schulz: Oh, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Once a few moments passed in silence, they ran outside where they found Christian the boyfriend dying of gunshot wounds in his car.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The killer had driven away. And Christian was unfortunately still conscious. He asked the girls for help. Seconds later he passed away.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So it seemed to police that Christian was a victim of the Vineland boys, which is a gang in Los Angeles, notorious for drug trafficking and violence. Umm, typically in the San Fernando Valley area of LA. And Martha's friend, when interviewed by police, said, oh, Martha knew who the shooter was. It was a man named Jose Ledesma.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they go, so they go to Martha and they're like, okay, your friend says you saw Jose. And Martha said, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what happened. I only guessed Jose was involved. I didn't actually see anyone 'cause we were hiding. Does that make sense already?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause I feel like that's already a, a bit of a convoluted thing.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: The friend says, oh, she saw who it was and the friend and Martha says, no, no, no, I didn't. I'm just guessing that might be who it is. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'd just be like, oh, well, I'm assuming he's involved because he knows us and why would this gang shoot at us? So I'm guessing he's involved.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Precisely.
Em Schulz: But then the other person read into it and thought that they were like accusing someone.
Christine Schiefer: Like, oh, you, you saw him at the scene? No, I didn't see him.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. That they witnessed him. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So soon afterward, authorities in Mexico contacted the LAPD, umm, because they were responding to a domestic dispute call. So a woman involved in the incident told them that her boyfriend, Jose Ledesma, if you'll recall.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: From the conversation with police was laying low in Mexico because he was wanted for murder in LA. So they extradite Jose to the United States along with his friend Mario Catalan. So Jose and Mario, they had been in Mexico kind of hiding out. And the LAPD in the meantime had searched Jose's Los Angeles home. And there they discovered an assault rifle and letters from the Vineland boys hidden from his family under his mattress. So they were like okay.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: He's, he's the, he's our guy.
Em Schulz: So it doesn't look good. Like it's, it makes him look very guilty.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. And so they need to bring him in. They're hiding out in Mexico. His wife calls, says, you know, after a domestic dispute, says he's here, he's hiding out in Mexico. So two detectives, their names are Pinner and Rodriguez of the LAPD. And they believe Jose was the shooter who killed Christian Vargas. And because he was hiding out with his friend in LA remember, and they're so close, they also believe Mario Catalan was driving the car during the killing.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And that would make him an accessory to the murder. So now we've got Jose and Mario being extradited back to the United States and put on trial for this crime. So during Jose's interrogation, Detective Pinner showed him something called a six pack. And at first I thought, okay, Detective Pinner like.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Party time.
Christine Schiefer: You're show showing off. Oh, I meant like showing.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Lifting your shirt or bring... Yeah. Or bringing some Miller High Life. Who knows? Umm.
Em Schulz: I felt like, oh, kraken won open with the boys to like, get him comfy to like admit something to you, to like confess.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, no, but that would be hilarious if they just start serving beer in the interrogation room. [laughter], I imagine that that would probably hinder and, umm.
Em Schulz: Be a problem for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. May be a problem. But he shows him a six pack, which in this policing world is a sheet that displays six photos of potential suspects in a criminal case. So it's like what you would see on SVU.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like a, like a pic, a sheet of pictures. Like, do you recognize anyone on this page?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: You know? So they had six potential suspects in a criminal case. And crime witnesses will look at these photos, like sort of similar to a police lineup and try to identify who they saw. And Jose's photo, he's the one being interrogated. So they show him a six pack a a pack of six photos or a, a sheet of six photos. And Jose's photo is one of these six. Now the photo of Jose is circled and underneath it.
Em Schulz: So priming somebody to think it's him.
Christine Schiefer: Well, sort of.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Not quite. So someone had circled his picture and someone else had written, this is the guy that shot my friend's boyfriend in quotes MP, Martha Puebla.
Em Schulz: MP. Mm.
Christine Schiefer: It seemed that despite claiming she had only speculated Jose's involvement, she had signed on as an official witness for the case, claiming she had seen him and she had circled his picture and said...
Em Schulz: Oh, yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, that's the guy.
Em Schulz: So she's claiming, no, I didn't actually see him, I just guessed while at the same time signing a confirmation that she saw him for sure.
Christine Schiefer: That that is, that is what we know so far.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah. Yes, yes. Exactly. That is the story that is being told at the point in time where we are in the story. [laughter] So six months later, Jose and Mario appear in court at a preliminary hearing for the case. And Mario, who was allegedly driving this car, or at least being accused of driving this car, was an accessory to the murder allegedly. And he was very nervous and had begged his family to attend the hearing to support him. So his family was in the audience, umm, during, during this preliminary hearing, and one of his family members was Juan Catalan.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: When Juan was younger, he had looked up to his older brother Mario. Even when Mario started getting involved with what, what Juan called a bad crowd. So we have two brothers here, Mario's the older brother, I guess he's Mario Junior, 'cause his dad's also Mario. And then, uh, Juan is the younger brother.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And Juan is at the preliminary hearing in the audience to support his older brother Mario, who's being tried as an accessory to a murder. The murder of this Chri... Of this Christian Vargas guy. Sorry. It's a lot. I know. So, uh, when Juan was little, his brother started getting into, you know, all sorts of trouble. He would come home with stolen stereos, car parts. And Juan at first thought like, oh, well he is my older brother, I wanna follow him around. I wanna do what he's doing. But after he was once arrested as a getaway driver, Juan was like, you know what? I'm never going...
Em Schulz: Not for me.
Christine Schiefer: Not for me, not the life for me. Umm, I'm going back home and I do not wanna be in jail ever again.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh good boy.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, Uh-huh, And once his daughter was born, he was like, I am, he was a very, he's a very active father. He is very involved in his daughter's life and very close with her. And he was like, well, I have zero interest in the criminal world because I have a child now and she's everything to me and I have no interest in being in prison. So he basically...
Em Schulz: He was like, don't go near your uncle Mario [laughter] Don't go near him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes, exactly. He's like, I left that world behind, but of course I'll still go to Mario's pretrial hearing just to support, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Juan did not end up following in Mario's footsteps, but he did still love and support his brother. And in an interview he said, everyone makes mistakes. Just some people make bigger mistakes than others, and they're not easily undone. So on May 1st, 2003, Juan and his girlfriend Alma attended this preliminary hearing in support of Mario. Martha Puebla was there too. And she...
Em Schulz: Okay. The girl who's a witness who's saying that he was the one who did it.
Christine Schiefer: Precisely. And she, as we've already said, was uh, a witness. So she was questioned on the witness stand, and although she had identified Jose as Christian's shooter on the six pack on the stand, she seemed a lot less confident and couldn't really implicate him in the crime.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like really was not confident that, you know, she had seen him, couldn't really give them the answers they were looking for as far as like, tell us you saw him there. And she was like, I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: So her signing off on it or could either be someone pretending to be her who signed off on it or she had to sign it under, under duress or something.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. It's like you watch SVU every-day.
Em Schulz: Ah.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: I'm just trying to put, I'm trying to keep the pieces together in my head of like, okay, she signed something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And yet is acting like she wouldn't have signed that. So.
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Correct.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So one of those, one of those two things is absolutely right. So Juan at this point, understandably, did not know much about the legal system. He wasn't involved with it and he didn't want to be. So he was just there out of love for his brother Mario. And once he left, he didn't even honestly remember or recall much about the hearing, much less Martha Puebla being on the stand. But what he didn't know is that he and Martha were about to become irrevocably linked. Done.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: So now we fast forward, we're in August of 2003 and Alma is driving Juan to work. It would be an average day. Uh, he worked at his dad's machine parts shop and he arrived and, uh, it was 7:30 AM about when they arrived. And he saw that his dad was already there. Hard at work.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Classic Dad probably fucking singing songs to everyone in the morning. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Good morning. Don't have feelings.
Christine Schiefer: Stop being sad. It's not allowed here. Okay. [laughter] Anyway, so.
Em Schulz: I was not allowed to be sad, so you can't either.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's how the world.
Em Schulz: Passing on generational trauma.
Christine Schiefer: Goes round and round. Okay. Oh my God. It's like, you learn that song too. Uh, weird okay.
Em Schulz: I knew the words. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know the lyrics. It's amazing.
Em Schulz: We all sing the same, same songs. Uh, don't we?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my... Oh my God.
Em Schulz: We all speak the same language.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That was beautiful. That was beautiful.
Em Schulz: We'll, we'll have an emotion about it later and defy them all.
Christine Schiefer: Will we? Oh, okay. That doesn't sound like fun. So I'll think about it. So they pull up to the shop and Juan gets out of the car just ready to go into work. Suddenly he is rushed by these men. Someone has a gun to his face, he's surrounded, someone pushes him to the ground face first. He's terrified. Then suddenly he hears radio chatter and he realizes his assailants were in fact the police.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: And he is totally fucking flabbergasted. He's like, why am I being arrested? And they refuse to tell him anything, which of course, as we know as people who watch SVU is a direct violation of the law. Uh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You can't just not tell someone why they're being arrested. So Juan's father, poor guy, sticks his head out the door to see what's going on. And Juan cries dad, look at what they're doing to me.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: The police shout at Mario Sr., to go back inside. And soon Juan was in jail where, by the way, he said he never wanted to go back to. And he sat there alone for six hours with zero information as to why he was there. So fucked up.
Em Schulz: Were they like waiting for him to just break or something? Or like say something that they could use against him? Or were they just like, like.
Christine Schiefer: I think they just were fully disrespecting him and were like, just sit there, you know, while.
Em Schulz: Yuck. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if there was a, there wasn't any clarity on that. My guess is just like, toss him in a jail cell 'till we're ready for him. Eventually he was moved into an interrogation room where detectives Pinner and Rodriguez told Juan he was there because he killed somebody.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Juan said, wait a minute. Those are very strong words right there. I did not kill nobody. I would never kill nobody. I'd never do anything to hurt anybody.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the detectives were like, mm, nice try. We don't buy it. They told him, we know you killed Martha Puebla in retaliation for testifying against Juan's older brother six months ago.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Is this the first time he's hearing that she's even dead?
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely, yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: In fact, he barely remembers who she is because she was just a witness.
Em Schulz: A random girl.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: At the, at the court, at the courthouse that day. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. So on May 12th, now we, now, you know, the actual murder of Martha May 12th, just over a week after the hearing for Christian Vargas's murder, where she was on the stand and unsure of what to say, Martha was on the curb just talking to a friend, uh, outside her house, a neighbor. And as they were talking, a Chevy Malibu slowly circled the block several times. And this was around 10:40 PM and a man got out of the car, approached Martha and asked her who she was. And by the way, the neighbor is the one who reported witnessing this, which is how we know exactly what happened.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So the man got out of the car, approached Martha and asked her who she was. She said, I'm Martha, you know me. He said, no, I don't. And shot her in the head. What the fuck.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." And then, and then what did the neighbor do? Just like duck under the window really quickly. Like, like talk.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking ran, ran for his life.
Em Schulz: Talk about witnessing a full murder, like up close and personal.
Christine Schiefer: Up close and personal and so shocking because she's like, oh yeah, I know you. And he is like, no, you don't. Bam. You know? And so Martha's friend, of course drops the phone, runs for his fucking life, and he is the only witness of this killing. And so when investigators come and interview him, he helps 'em create a composite sketch, which prosecutors said, bore a striking resemblance to Juan Catalan.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: So Juan insisted he had absolutely nothing to do with this killing, and like, didn't even know she was dead or barely remembered who she was. But the detective showed him a six pack in which his photo was circled, and the witness had written, this is the guy who I saw shoot my neighbor.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh damn, there is something going on here. Someone is...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't this shady as fuck.
Em Schulz: So... Hmm. So if someone is, I'm assuming there's a bad guy we don't know about yet, or do know about, who is writing on these like six packs who they want people to select or like signing off as other people or something.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like a tact. I I think it's more of a tactic that they were doing, which is not, I mean, I'm sorry it's not cool.
Em Schulz: That feels illegal.
Christine Schiefer: It feels very illegal in my book that they would circle and say, see, look like they would write.
Em Schulz: Like.
Christine Schiefer: I saw this man shoot my neighbor. See he...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He said he saw you right at the scene. He even signed this paper and it's like you're faking their signature. Umm, but I feel like they do do that in interrogations where they say, you know, we know we have your DNA and like, they'll lie 'cause you're allowed to do that.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, they'll lie to see if you're like, if you'll like get tripped up.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. But I, yeah, but it's very fucking shady. So I, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But so the, the like out of body experience he must have of sitting there and seeing his own picture circled and someone saying, I saw him shoot my neighbor. And he's like, wait, what the fuck? Like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea who any of these people are.
Em Schulz: I would've had... I would've fully... I don't even know what I would've done, because then you think like, oh, someone's actually out there saying this. It's not like I'm one of multiple suspects.
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: There's someone out there who wants me in jail because they saw, like, now they're coming after me.
Christine Schiefer: Totally like someone has pinpointed, targeted just me as the...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Suspect here. Yeah, exactly. So detectives, of course, ask Juan where he was the night Martha Rose was murdered, but he couldn't quite remember. I mean, because of course you ask somebody, what... Where were you three Tuesdays ago? You're like, I don't, I don't know, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And he was over, I mean, I don't even know where I am now, let alone like last Tuesday. So he was...
Em Schulz: I don't know what day it is.
Christine Schiefer: Never. So he's super overwhelmed by this arrest, this accusation. He, he didn't know where he was. The, the murder had occurred six months earlier, so it was like very long ago. He couldn't quite pinpoint what he had been doing that day. But it was Alma who eventually remembered that Juan was at a Dodgers game on May 12th.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: He had purchased tickets for the baseball game from someone who held season passes, and the season pass holders weren't gonna be at that game. So Juan got a really great deal on the tickets. And he invited, he actually admits this in the interview on, uh, the documentary I watched. He invited his mom for Mother's Day knowing that she wouldn't wanna go to a baseball game so that he could have the tickets, like he gave them to her as a birthday gift.
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: Or for a Mother's Day gift. And she was like, oh, thanks, honey. I, I probably won't go. And he's like, that's okay. I'll go. Um.
Em Schulz: That's the most, uh, I don't know. I, I feel like all of us.
Christine Schiefer: Child thing?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. I feel like all of us have done that at some point, but we were also all in high school.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my, uh, my brother and I got Tim, uh, on his first, the first birthday we were we like, knew him, uh, SpongeBob floor mats for his car. And he was like...
Em Schulz: Oh, I'm sure he was like, thank you.
Christine Schiefer: It was horrible. He had to put them in and he's like a car guy. Oh. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I can't, I can't believe my mom let us do that. Um, anyway, so he invited his mom for Mother's Day to the daughter's game. She didn't wanna go. So instead he brought along his daughter. Now, his daughter, as I mentioned earlier, means everything to him. She's about, at this point, you know, between four and six years old, depending on like, conflicting sources. So he brings his little daughter who was super excited to go, his cousin Miguel, and a friend named Reuben. So Alma tears the house up 'cause she's looking for these tickets, right? She's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I have to prove we were at that... They were at that game. So she finds the tickets finally in an envelope.
Em Schulz: Thank God.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. As well as baseball cards that Juan had purchased at the, at Dodger Stadium that night for his daughter.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And just to clarify, folks, if you're not from, you know, the states or what have you, uh the Dodgers are Los Angeles' Major League Baseball team.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So apparently, these baseball cards and the tickets were not enough to prove that Juan was actually at the game right? Like a lawyer could say, oh, you have tickets.
Em Schulz: Like, someone could have just bought them for him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or like, he could have bought the tickets and not gone, you know, like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't prove he was there. It just proves he had the tickets.
Em Schulz: Just like how his mom had tickets but didn't go.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. Um, and as for the baseball cards, he apparently had paid cash. So that sucks.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Because...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They didn't have a transaction, you know, of that. So they also thought like, okay, well then why don't you interview my daughter? You know, but she's five or six and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, how, you know, any lawyer could say, this is a small child. Like someone just told her to say, what, what we wanna hear, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so the testimony from his close friends or his own daughter was not gonna do it either. So Juan needed a really good lawyer. And this part cracks me up. I don't know where I stand on this guy, because I don't know him well enough, but he is quite a character in the documentary. Um, which I'll tell you about at the end. So, or we'll also link it in case I forget, um, in the show notes.
Christine Schiefer: But Juan needed a good lawyer. He had a cousin who happened to work as a filing clerk, and his cousin said, oh, oh my gosh, my boss that I work for as a filing clerk, he's a defense attorney named Todd Melnick. You have to reach out to him. So Todd meets Juan and he explains the interaction. Um, as far as Todd does, I mean, and he essentially has his gut feeling at the end, like, Juan did not do this. He's like, you know, he's been...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: A criminal defense attorney for so long. And he's like, I met with him. I'm confident he did not kill this person. And obviously, he's in a terrible spot, uh, because they're pretty convinced it's him. So after speaking with Juan, Todd felt, he already knew that, uh, murder would be completely out of character for Juan. He's like, I have spoken to him, his family. There is no way. He's like, I know, I know plenty of criminals. There is no way this guy did it.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So now his, uh, what do you call it? His obstacle is that he has to prove that Juan was at the game the night Martha was killed. And if he could prove he was there and couldn't have killed Martha, then he could have the entire case thrown out.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But obviously that's easier said than done. And this is again, you know, the early 2000s, and it doesn't to me sound that long ago, but it was over 20 years ago, which is the wildest thing in my mind.
Em Schulz: Insane to me 'cause 2003 feels like five years ago.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like yesterday when people show like, oh, like outfits from 2003. I'm like, big whoop. And then I'm like, ah, who are those people? Oh, shit, that's me and my bell bottoms. Oops.
Em Schulz: I was on Reddit yesterday, and one of the top questions was, what were the 1900s like? What were the 1990s like?
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, that's embarrassing.
Em Schulz: Or I was born in the 2000s, what was it like before the year 2000? I was like...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not gonna answer you because that's about what it was like. You couldn't just fucking go on Reddit and find out.
Em Schulz: That was the main, that was the first question. It was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, damn.
Em Schulz: You just had to, you just had to naturally be okay with just wondering. You were just like, you would just be like, I wonder how that goes this way, or who, who starred in this? And then you would just carry on with your day.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But the worst...
Em Schulz: And then maybe one day you'd find out.
Christine Schiefer: But the worst part is when two people disagree about something and there's no way to check.
Em Schulz: There's no way to check.
Christine Schiefer: And if you're sure you're right, they're sure they're right, well, that's the end, you know, until you get an encyclopedia. Like, come on.
Em Schulz: Isn't it wild that friendships definitely ended over disagreements?
Christine Schiefer: Oh they must.
Em Schulz: That could have just been Googled.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I remember... You remember that TikTok, that like, one of the only ones that went viral on the Beach Too Sandy account is the story of my, my recovered memory of being at a Hard Rock Cafe in Niagara Falls with my friend Alyssa. And we started arguing about hamburger prices in the 1800s.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And we, we got so, it got so heated that we started shouting, and my mom called me a bitch.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: And it, that whole day lives like in my mind forever. And I'm like, man, we had so many of those stupid arguments. I'm shocked that that did not end our friendship. But anyway, now you could just be like...
Em Schulz: I mean, there were...
Christine Schiefer: How much... What? Now there's calculators. How much was a hamburger in 1985? Let's find out.
Em Schulz: I mean, there were grown men who had literal duels over dumber things. So, um, I, I can't imagine like how, like if we always had Google, how many more people would be alive or friends or have certain relationships just because a conversation could have been...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Solved by the end.
Christine Schiefer: A disturbingly creepy thought. Um...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Forget, forget about it. I mean, and then bring in Ask Jeeves and it's all out the window. So...
Em Schulz: Look, Jeeves was never there for me. He never seemed to know what the fuck was going on. He was supposed to be the smartest man in the world.
Christine Schiefer: Neither did that fucking paperclip. I'm like, what kind of fucking wisdom are you giving me? You tell me how to change the font size. Yeah, I figured that out bucko.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ask Jeeves never was helpful to me. What was the other one? It was wasn't Yahoo.
Christine Schiefer: Bing?
Em Schulz: It wasn't Yahoo. Ask Yahoo. It was Bing.
Christine Schiefer: Chacha?
Em Schulz: Chacha. I loved Chacha. Chacha was specifically college. Anyway, keep on.
Christine Schiefer: I used it in high school, but I'm a year older than you, so. Hmm.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So anyway, this attorney is like, you know what, I'm gonna take on this case and I'm gonna prove he was at that fucking baseball game so he could not have killed Martha. So the first thing Todd does is he contacts Sam Fernandez, who's the senior vice president and general counsel for the Dodgers. He's basically the head attorney for the entire Dodgers. Um...
Em Schulz: That's great.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The connections.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So he's like, listen, I know this guy. I've got this guy's number, so I'm calling Sam. So Sam's like, all right, come on by. He invites Todd to the stadium and Todd is like, yeah, I got to walk around the stadium. It was so cool.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Stadium tour. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. So he gets to tour the stadium. Not really, but sort of. And they walked to the seats where Juan sat during the May 12th game. Then Sam provided Todd with in-house footage that the stadium staff had shot throughout the whole stadium on the night of that game. So...
Em Schulz: Oh, great. So it proved that Juan was there.
Christine Schiefer: Not quite God. So Todd...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Spent hours, hours painstakingly reviewing the footage. Like he was going like frame by frame.
Em Schulz: Hey, I know what that life is like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you do. But you're looking for ghosts. You're not trying to get someone off from, off of murder charges. But I would argue equal importance.
Em Schulz: Equal importance and also, uh, but not equal toughness. Because if you were trying to find Juan in the pitch black, he would not do a very good job.
Christine Schiefer: You know what? Yeah. He had it easy is what I say.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so he painstakingly went through the footage and he eventually did find Juan in some of the shots sitting in his seat. But it's fucking 2004, whatever, 2003. Um...
Em Schulz: It's all pixelated and shit.
Christine Schiefer: It's so pixelated. And they try to, you know, enhance, enhance, okay. That doesn't do anything. That's just TV. I learned that the hard way. And so they try, the resolution's just way too low to actually prove that it was Juan in the shot. So Todd went over that night with Juan again and again, he was like, tell me again and again and again. Every single thing you did, did you eat a peanut? Did you scratch your head?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like literally anything. And he is just racking his brain and he does have a very, very clear memory of the game. He can describe the innings and the plays. He was like very, very into baseball. He said he had gone to 100s and 100s of games. So like he knew that game in particular because he went with his daughter, you know, it was kind of a special...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Special outing for them. So he remembered the whole game. But um, again, that would not have proven anything. Like he could have either looked that up or watched it on TV, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He could have asked Jeeves, I guess, uh, what the score was that day. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So Todd asked Juan. Okay. Anything else? Do you remember anything unique about the game? Oh my God, my stomach just like flipped. This part is, Em, this is one of those stories where I keep checking if I'm in a lucid dream 'cause it sounds like something my dumb brain would invent. I know. Check lucid dream check. Oh, that's a fun little idea everybody. Lucid dream check. Put, try to put your finger through your hand. If it goes through, you're probably dreaming. Oh, what if someone's asleep and they're listening to our podcast and I just allowed them to actually have a lucid dream. Wouldn't that be cool?
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Did we tap into the mainframe?
Christine Schiefer: Am I Leonardo...
Em Schulz: Or we be, or beyond beyond?
Christine Schiefer: DiCaprio.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Please. Okay. So Todd asked Juan if he remembered anything unique about the game and Juan said, yeah, there was this one thing. It was really odd. There seemed to be a film crew present that day.
Em Schulz: Oh, so more evide... More footage we could look through?
Christine Schiefer: Correct. He goes, yeah, I took my daughter to the concession stand because she wanted candy. So he goes, takes her to get candy. And on the way back to his seat, someone with the production crew stopped him and said, just wait a moment, we're filming. You know, I mean, we've lived in LA, you live in LA. There's just sometimes, sometimes you are no longer normal... You're relegated to like...
Em Schulz: A movie set.
Christine Schiefer: Second class... Second class citizen. Because yeah, there's a movie set happening.
Em Schulz: You're now an extra. You're a, you didn't even know it. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Your house is not your house anymore. It's like the setting of a gruesome murder. You didn't even know that that was allowed. But here we are. Um, so anyway, yeah, somebody stops them on the way back to their seats. It's like a PA you know, with the crew. And then the guy kind of just pauses and says, oh, you know what, just go ahead. I don't, he, it doesn't, not clear if it's 'cause he had a little girl, not clear if like, oh, it's fine, we can have some people walking through the shots. What have you. Essentially says, All right, you can go ahead, go back to your seats. So Juan said, in all of his years, and again, he has said he has been to 100s of Dodgers games. All of his many years attending games at that stadium, he had never seen a film crew there, never seen a film crew. So he thought this was just particularly memorable, you know, it was very brief. But he was like, yeah, on my way back, there was a strange thing going on, but they let me through.
Em Schulz: So Todd spoke with Sam Fernandez, again, the lawyer for the Dodgers, and said, can you check with the media coordinator? What were you filming? What were you filming that day? So they're looking through the calendar and they're going May 10th nothing, May 11th nothing. May 12th, which is the date of Martha's murder. They are filming a show for HBO and that's what it says. So they said, oh, yep. We're, HBO actually was filming that day, May 12th, 2003. And Todd is like, cool, guess I'm calling HBO. He calls HBO and a producer picks up, Todd explains the situation. The producer didn't quite seem to grasp the gravity of the situation, you know, hindsight is 20/20. And he said, oh, we don't release, you know, pre, pre-aired footage. But like, you can wait for the show to come out and see it then.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. That's the most...
Christine Schiefer: [1:32:55.4] ____ LA.
Em Schulz: LA sense I've ever heard.
Christine Schiefer: Again, like you're, everyone's suddenly a second class citizen, even the attorney trying to get someone off of a murder case, a murder trial.
Em Schulz: Of a murder. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, come on. And Todd is like, um, I don't know if I really clarified just how important this is. Um, so let me explain it one more time. So he insists and the producer's like, fine, you can, I, I'll check with my higher up, my higher ups name is Larry David. Uh, he is the...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Actual Larry David?
Christine Schiefer: Creator and star of a little show called 'Curb Your Enthusiasm,' which was filming on May 12th, 2003, at Dodger Stadium.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay, so now there's an episode somewhere in 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' where we know while they were filming there was somebody else in, in the audience who was about to be on trial for murder.
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Incredible. Incredible.
Em Schulz: Do you know what episode?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, we know everything. Don't even worry.
Em Schulz: Okay great.
Christine Schiefer: Don't. I knew it right away, 'cause I was like, oh my God, I've seen that episode four times. I was like, that's just so trippy, 'cause I was like, oh, I remember watching and going, how did they film at Dodger Stadium? Like this is, which apparently was a big ask. Like Larry David wanted it to be at Dodger Stadium and his producers were like, we can't fill a stadium. Like, how are we gonna do this? And they were like, well how about we film during a real game? So they just...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Happened to pick May 12th, like they just happened to, outta the whole effing calendar that...
Em Schulz: They were like...
Christine Schiefer: One episode where they go to...
Em Schulz: That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Dodger Stadium was that day. It just feels like some sort of divine intervention, you know? So...
Em Schulz: Like Curb Your Enthusiasm because of that random day got a man off of murder.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. And you should hear Larry David talk about it. It's, I took a bunch of photos on my screen 'cause you can't like screenshot Netflix and stuff. And the photos with subtitles of Larry David being like, like, what was I doing there? You know, just like the most like sitcommy, like how did this happen to me? This would happen in a TV show. You know, it just feels...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So they brought, of course the producers bring it up to Larry David and he hears the story and it's like, you know, truth is stranger than fiction almost. And he's like, well, yeah, I guess let's help, you know, uh, get this guy, get this guy pardoned or freed from, from jail. So he decides to help, he invites Todd, Larry David invites Todd the lawyer to the studio. By the way, this guy's having the Hollywood tour of, of his life...
Em Schulz: A lifetime. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: LA tour. Yeah. Of a lifetime. So he goes to the studio in Santa Monica and they're like, well, I guess producers are like, we'll just play through the footage. Um, obviously there's a lot more footage than what they used, that they were gonna just use in the episode, but they had all of the footage they had filmed that day. So they say, hey, we're gonna scrub through and you know, you tell us if you see anything you're looking for. All right. So the episode that had been shooting that day was an episode of season four called 'Carpool Lane.' In the episode, Larry David's character is stuck in traffic on his way to Dodger Stadium. And when he sees that traffic is only moving in the carpool lane, he decides to pick up a sex worker on the corner, uh, who's played by actress Kym Whitley and have her hop in the car, uh, so they can, you know, use the carpool lane and get to the game. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I know Ellen DeGeneres had a joke about like a, a blow up sex doll strapped...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Into the passenger... I feel like it's a very classic LA joke, right? The carpooling.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So rather than fill a baseball stadium with tens of thousands of extras, as we just said, Larry got permission to shoot during this real game, and his crew used a camera with an extremely long scope to film the actors from a distance. So people in...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The crowd didn't even know there was a camera. Like it was so far away.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And so the crew that was, you know, stopping him from walking down was basically there, you know, on walkies I assume with and saying like, oh, they're shooting right now. Um, okay, now you can go, you know, it wasn't like there were cameras there. He...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That, that were filming up close. Right. It was like, oh, someone is filming this particular section, so just, just wait a minute. And then when the guy thought, when the PA said, okay, they, I'm sure they're done by now, go ahead. You know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it was their goal to be as subtle as possible with this angle, uh, because the crew was instructed not to fear with anyone in the crowd who had paid to attend the game. They were like, we don't want you messing with actual Dodgers fans. They've paid to be here. Like, don't make a scene. You know, you're Larry David, I imagine they said you're Larry David, so you can do this, but like, don't fuck it up, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, truly.
Christine Schiefer: So in the show, Larry's character ends up in seats that he doesn't like really far away from the field. And, uh, weirdly enough, these seats that, uh, he had picked or that were being filmed for the, the first part of the show, uh, were not anywhere near where Juan was sitting. And so it was unlikely as their scrubbing through footage of Larry David, like up in the nosebleeds essentially, that they would see Juan anywhere.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But in the episode, Larry's character spots someone he knows sitting in much better seats, much closer to the field. And so in the show, he walks down to ask his friend if he can join him. This interaction between the two of them takes place just a couple of aisles away from Juan's seats. So the camera is rolling, and a crew member stopped Juan on his way back from the concessions, but then kind of on a whim, just let, let him walk through with his daughter. Right. It is in that exact moment, in that exact moment, Juan and his daughter walk straight into the shot.
Em Schulz: So they're on TV? Like they're in the episode?
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, this is all pre, pre-episode. So this is just like...
Em Schulz: Oh, like, they're like in the, uh, like raw footage of it.
Christine Schiefer: They're in the raw footage of the episode. Yes.
Em Schulz: That's so... Wow. Very, um, kismet.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And you know, the PA, he was interviewed, and he's by the way, the most mesmerizing eyes I've ever, blue eyes I've ever seen. I was like, whoa.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What do you do with those eyes? I'm, I'm afraid. Um, he talked about, he talked about the experience. He's like, yeah, I couldn't tell you why I let them through. I was supposed to stop. And then he is like, you know, instead of saying like, it was fate or he just had a gut feeling, he literally goes, I think I was just a shitty PA.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, you know, good for you. Good for you.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, wow, how relatable is that? Yeah. It's not fate. I just didn't do my job very well, and I wasn't listening to my walkie. And I assumed they had finished filming, but they hadn't finished filming.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So he was not supposed to let them walk down. But you can see in the shot they're filming like Larry David's talking to his friend and all of a sudden, like, this man and his daughter just walk in...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Down the aisle... It's...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: The wildest shit you ever did see. And so they're on film there, front and center in high definition, no less walking back to their seats. And when Todd saw it, he apparently leaped out of his chair. He's shouting in celebration and fun fact, Larry David had not been there for this whole session, but he said, oh yeah, just about like for the last hour, I popped in just to like see, you know, what was going on. And that's when they found that. So Larry David actually got to witness it happen, which is pretty cool.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay, cool.
Christine Schiefer: So now they have proof that Juan was telling the truth. He was at the baseball game the night Martha was murdered. However, there's still a little bit of a problem because all of this footage, of course, has time codes on it. And the footage was filmed more than an hour before the shooting. And so technically...
Em Schulz: Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: I know, it's like every little thing is going wrong. They find...
Em Schulz: You literally have Larry...
Christine Schiefer: It's not enough. They find footage's not enough.
Em Schulz: You literally have Larry David, the cast of 'Curb Your Enthusiasm,' HBO and the LA Dodgers all trying to help this guy out. And it's still one hour off. So technically it's not good enough.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. They're like, we can't, they're not gonna throw this out because there's still a possibility that he did this. So worse, Martha happened to live on the same street as Juan's cousin, Miguel, who went to the game with him and whom Juan dropped off after the game. So they could also argue, oh, they left early and while he was dropping off Miguel in that same neighborhood...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like same street.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And in LA...
Em Schulz: Shit.
Christine Schiefer: That's a big deal, right? Like you're just on the same street. What are the odds? You know, that the night she was killed, you happened to drop someone off on her street. It's a bad look. So in an interview, the prosecutor on the case said, the fact that Juan was at the game meant nothing to her. First of all, she is a lot of words that I will not say. She gets interviewed too...
Em Schulz: All right.
Christine Schiefer: She sounds like a pain in my ass. So she believed, there was no question Juan killed Martha. And when they said, well, why? There's not even a clear witness statement. She's like, because the composite sketch looks just like him.
Em Schulz: Okay. Dare I ask?
Christine Schiefer: Um, we'll get there.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know what you're asking, but we'll get there. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She was nicknamed the sniper, uh, that was her...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Her nickname. Isn't that fun? Uh...
Em Schulz: Did she give it to herself?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. I, that's, I dunno if that's better or worse. I think it's probably better because then at least like, you're not known as that. You just want to be known as that. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Um, so she was known as a sniper because she had never lost a murder trial in her whole career, and she often imposed the death penalty. So I think it was more a matter of she was dead set because her track record was not gonna be marred by this one little hitch, you know, in, in her, in her, in their defense or in her, I guess in her prosecution. So if Juan went to trial, they now know he would absolutely face the death penalty. That's what she was going for. So Todd was like, absolutely not. You know, now he's more convinced than ever that Todd is innocent and he just needs to find a way to really, really prove it. So he remembered that the police had used. So he's like, he just casually drops this. He goes, well, when I was on the OJ Simpson case, which is...
Em Schulz: Oy, oy, oy, oy.
Christine Schiefer: Very silly. Yeah. It's the most also LA thing to ever say. Uh, just casually, I was involved in that whole...
Em Schulz: You know when, when Robert Kardashian and I were getting dinner before...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The OJ... Like what?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, totally off the record, you know, but you can put this in your documentary, I guess if you want. Um, so he had been some sort of part of the OJ Simpson case, or at least tangentially related to it somehow. And he remembered that during that case, police had used cell phone signals to locate OJ Simpson when he was a fugitive several years prior. So when someone places a call on a cell phone, you know, they're often linked to the nearest cell tower.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that's how you can often triangulate somebody or find out the general vicinity they're in. So Todd pursued the data to pinpoint the phone calls Juan made that night. At 10:12 PM on May 12th, 2003, Juan called Alma his girlfriend to let her know he was leaving the game a little early because the Dodgers were losing and he didn't think it was gonna get much better. Tower data showed that the call was made within a mile of the stadium, and Martha lived 20 miles away. So there is...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No way he could have gotten from within a mile radius of the stadium to Martha's home in that time.
Em Schulz: But isn't it funny how like, they could have just done that and not contacted HBO or the Dodgers or anyone and like they could have just checked the cell towers.
Christine Schiefer: That is... Oh my God, I never thought of that.
Em Schulz: I, if I were the lawyer, I'd be like, why didn't we just do that? That would've literally saved me so much time.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but think, but think about all the cool people you met.
Em Schulz: I think the fun story came from it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, you fucking met Larry David. That's pretty cool. Okay, so the preliminary hearing for Juan's case began, and now the judge had to decide whether this would go in front of a jury at all. So day after day, Juan sat through hearings listening to like legal jargon, technicalities, people arguing. He didn't even understand what the hell they were saying. And the worst part for him was his young daughter took the stand. And, um...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God, that's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: This footage like, I mean, tore my heart. It was...
Em Schulz: Was she just like crying and saying, don't take my daddy or something miserable? What?
Christine Schiefer: Nope. She's sitting there, she's just saying, we got ice cream. I had chocolate. And you, the camera pans and he is weeping, like shaking and weeping and just like, so he looks so worried and sad. Like he's just watching his daughter say like, we got chocolate ice cream. And she's like, you know, standing there sitting on someone's lap and he is just like weeping.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's just this horrible 'cause I mean, knowing he didn't do anything and he was at that game and he was buying her ice cream and now she has to retell it all. And this is all very traumatizing for her, and she doesn't understand. So he's just sitting there just like tears streaming down his face.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible to watch. Umm, and so, you know, she gives her her testimony. And the judge, first of all, is so funny 'cause she's also interviewed in this documentary, and she's like, I didn't know what the hell anyone was talking about. She was like, I didn't know what was going on. Everyone's like saying these different version of events, they're talking TV footage and timestamps. And she says, you know what? I'm taking home the audio tapes from Juan's initial interrogation. I wanna take them home and I wanna be able to listen to them over and over and over again as many times as I want to or need to just rewind, listen, rewind and listen. And so she took those tapes home and she said this case, for whatever reason, really anguished her, especially because Martha's family was in attendance, right? So they're thinking, this is the guy who killed our daughter.
Christine Schiefer: So she's in a very, you know, scary position where she has to decide like, is this man being wrongfully charged, or am I about to let this family's, you know, murdered daughters killer walk off scot-free. So she's in a very, you know, tough position, and she decides to take home these audio tapes, and she listened to the interrogation tapes and asked herself, is this the voice of a guilty man? And of course, she couldn't know that, but she didn't feel like it was, and she listened to the tapes over and over and over again, and she even played the tapes for her own children and said, Hey, do you think this man sounds guilty? Which by the way, I don't know how old the kids were, but what a weird household to live in if they were like 10.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So ultimately, uh, Juan's defense was strong, and meanwhile, the prosecution had nearly no evidence against Juan. Remember they literally just have like, oh, he happened. His, his friend happens to live on the street, or his cousin, and we have this composite sketch. That's it. They don't have any evidence putting him at Martha's house. And they were kind of S, SOL. They did insist that their witness was extremely credible. But the judge said, I don't have any doubt the eyewitness attempted to be credible which I love.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: But he observed this murder on a darkened residential street under obviously the most traumatic of circumstances. So she's basically saying he might be a reliable witness, or he might think he's a reliable witness, but we can't say for certain that he is, because he just witnessed the most traumatizing thing of his life and it was dark and he ran away, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's not convincing. So Juan at this point is like, I don't know what it feels like, umm, three Stooges in here, or whatever one of these old shows is. He's like, I had no idea what was happening. I had no clue what anyone was talking about. Like, they're going on and she's saying all this stuff, and, and she, the judge reads this like, really long winded statement, and Juan's like, is it good? Is it bad? I can't even tell.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like like legal jargon terrifies me. Like can just...
Christine Schiefer: Just like spit it out. Like say the end, you know, like say...
Em Schulz: Am I good or am I bad? Like, am I the good guy or the bad guy tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Thumbs up, thumbs down, please just tell me what's going on. And then Todd...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Fireworks or rain.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, or, or, or rainstorm, or is it my computer where literally nothing happens? Uh, probably that, so Todd, his lawyer leans over and whispers it's over in like a good way.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So the judge decided that a single witness testimony was not enough to bring this case to trial. Uh, it was not enough to charge Juan with this murder, and she dismissed the case. It would not go to trial. And Juan was free.
Em Schulz: Wee. Okay, great.
Christine Schiefer: So this part also got to my heart on camera. He walks outta the courthouse, his daughter's there, and she's almost like, oh my God, I don't know why it makes me so sad. She's like almost scared to go up to him, you know, it's been a while. And she's so little and like, there's cameras.
Em Schulz: She doesn't know.
Christine Schiefer: She's confused probably. And, uh, her mom says, go hug your daddy. Go hug your daddy. And she's kinda like slowly timidly going toward him. Umm, and then he, he holds her, he's sobbing and she starts to cry. It just is one of those moments where you're like, and it's, it's real, you know? And it's like, oh God, no TV show could ever fake this. Like, this is heart wrenching. So he goes and hugs his daughter. He then, which is also on camera, grabs his lawyer Todd, and like lifts him off his feet and kind of spins around like, he's just so excited.
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's really, really cute. And he said, I owe you dude. And Todd said, it's all right. And Alma said, no, you owe him your life.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So Todd then left so that Juan could, you know, celebrate with his family. And he later said, it seemed as if Todd had just walked off nobly into the sunset as he should, you know, he just turned around and said, have a nice life.
Em Schulz: He did. He, he tipped his hat and went see ya partner and just kinda.
Christine Schiefer: See ya part... See ya partner.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And Just kinda, just kind of walked off.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, wa I mean, sunset Boulevard close enough, you know, sunset, I'm sure it was something like that. So Juan won his freedom, but, uh, unfortunately that wasn't quite the happy ending with a bow that it should have been because a lawsuit, uh, he filed against the city of Los Angeles in the LAPD revealed shocking negligence because get this, the six pack of photos they showed Juan, in which his photo was circled was faked.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the detectives circled Juan's photo themselves and then forged the a-alleged witness statement to frighten Juan into confessing. And as you said, you know, it's sha-shady. It is technically legal, which is what I was kind of guessing, just based on the fact that I know you can lie to a suspect, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so it was technically legal, but apparently it, it was considered extremely unethical. So it was just, uh, a really bad look. And what was worse is, you guessed it, they had done the same thing when they interrogated Jose Ledesma for the murder of Christian Vargas. So as Em called right off the top, they, somebody in there had a grand old idea and just wanted to keep using it, uh, circle a photo and fake a signature.
Em Schulz: I do wonder if it was racially motivated, umm, only because the two people that that happened to both had names like Jose and Juan. I, so I'm assuming, was there, I'm assuming they looked to the part in some way. Do we know if that had any play?
Christine Schiefer: It absolutely had some say in the fact that the composite sketch was, you know, clearly a 30 something Hispanic male, but, and it, it did look like him, right? Like, he admits that himself, like, yeah, sure it looks like me, but it could have been a number or like an amalgamation of guys his age. You know, it. So that definitely played a part and they do discuss that as well.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I don't know if this is something that, you know, they get into, uh, as far as the actual negligence of detectives, but we can probably all guess that like yeah, it's been discussed and it's probably not cute, you know? So I will get into a little more detail. So maybe, maybe we'll have some clarity on that, but...
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Essentially the detectives had just been forging these statements. I bet what happened is the first time he did it, he was like, oh, that was easy, and the guy did do it, and now he's in jail, so let's try it again. You know? Except with the second one.
Em Schulz: Dang. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Juan was not actually guilty, so it ended up coming out.
Em Schulz: And it makes me mad 'cause I feel like that guy probably didn't even feel bad about it. Like, oh, well it worked once and it didn't work another time. So I guess it's still a tactic.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I think, I mean, clearly he thought he was guilty. Like he was like, oh, this will just convince him to confess. But if I were Martha and somebody had faked my signature, I'd be pissed because I'd be like, well, what if that's not the guy? You know? Like I myself said I wasn't sure whether or not I had seen him, so why are you putting my initials on it?
Em Schulz: Yeah, good point.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so fucking shady. Umm, so it turned out Martha had never named Jose or agreed to be a witness, but they told Jose yes see, she signed it right here. I mean, that's so fucked up. I'm sorry. Even if it's technically legal. So detectives Pinner and Rodriguez had sat down with a gang member and implicated a 16-year-old girl as a witness who would speak against him, is the summation of it. And it was a complete fabrication. And Jose believed it and made a phone call from jail to a friend. And in the call he said, oh boy. He said, do you know the slut that lives there by my house? Her name starts with an M, I need her to disappear. She's dropping dimes. But keep a low profile, stay on your toes homie, and don't get caught.
Em Schulz: Ooh, well, that'll do it.
Christine Schiefer: The phone call was even recorded, but the detectives hadn't listened to it for months. And if they had, they might have been able to save Martha's life. And so essentially Martha was killed because they faked her signature on a piece of paper after she had clearly said, I don't implicate anyone. I didn't see anyone. And...
Em Schulz: So she looked like a snitch and she got taken out.
Christine Schiefer: 100%. And...
Em Schulz: Because somebody else wanted to use a very bad tactic.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: So then how was that not like, some sort of like manslaughter or I guess, 'cause it's legal, it's like not you... They can't be charged with it.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I, I'm hoping, I mean, even in the documentary, they said like, you know, policing, it doesn't sound long ago, but it was decades ago now. And it's like, I'm sure now with the amount of technology that's tracking everything, it probably is trickier to pull something like that off. Trust me. I'm not saying, oh, it doesn't happen like, nothing shady happens. But, umm, you know, I bet it's, I bet it's, I bet it was easier back then to get away with it 'cause you know, nobody's like tracking and digitally everything you're doing and that and that sort of thing. So it's just horrifying to think like, if they just hadn't done that, hadn't signed her name, hadn't written this...
Em Schulz: She'd be alive, she might be.
Christine Schiefer: Fake quote, she might be alive. And then the dominoes of Juan getting arrested, that never would've happened. Uh, it's just really, really shocking. And again, detectives didn't listen to the phone call for months. Umm, and even if they hadn't been able to save her life, they may have at least known that Juan wasn't her killer, because they would've had Jose being like, Hey, go kill Martha on the phone. But they never fucking listened to it. So they're like, no, it was Jose. You know, it's like they got in their one track mind and then refuse to change.
Em Schulz: This is why you look at all footage always.
Christine Schiefer: I know Em's, like these fucking... Todd is over here watching every fucking frame of a Larry David show. I mean, not that I haven't done that myself, but you know what I mean? And Em's over here staring into the void and losing their sanity.
Em Schulz: I'm staring at the black for, for 300 hours. You can do it. You can look up a phone call.
Christine Schiefer: You can listen to one fucking phone call. You know, that's threatening the life of a young woman. It's just, to me so infuriating. It's infuriating. And that's why I said like the racial stuff, listen, I I, I don't think there was ever anything like that. They got down to...
Em Schulz: Specific.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Specifics. And I definitely don't feel equipped to comment on that because I don't know, I just don't know that part of the story. Umm, but I think everyone knows in general how I feel about things. So I'm just gonna leave it at that. Umm, and yeah, so they, they hadn't listened to the phone call. So Martha was killed. They thought it was Juan. And in a lawsuit against the city, the city's attorney claimed that Martha and her family were offered witness protection and relocation services. But when they talked to that was like their defense.
Christine Schiefer: The city was like, no, we offered them like witness protection. And the Pueblas, which obviously Martha's family insisted they were never offered witness protection or security or relocation.
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Never, never happened. They're, they're like, they're full of shit. We never got offered that. According to them, they didn't even know the detectives had involved Martha in the case or implicated her involvement to Jose. They never even told Martha, Hey, by the way, we told Jose that you ratted him out. You know, just didn't say anything, didn't tell her, didn't tell her family. And so they had no clue that she was actually in serious danger. And on top of that, they never even got offered witness protection. So even if they did that, that wasn't on the radar. It's so infuriating. This fucking young girl gets killed.
Em Schulz: Whole thing.
Christine Schiefer: It's outrageous.
Em Schulz: And the, the absolutely the no accountability, no responsibility, no consequences.
Christine Schiefer: Certainly not. The city then went on to argue, uh, that Martha revealed information about gang affiliation in her testimony at the preliminary hearing, which is what got her killed. Now, this is where we get into the more racist stuff, right? Oh, she's in a gang. So, umm, by the way like, fuck you. Whatever, you put her on the stand, she wasn't even going to be on the stand. You forced her on the stand and then try...
Em Schulz: Yeah. She can't perjure herself.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Try to make her say things that she didn't even say, you're the ones lying, you know, under oath, not her. And then you're like, oh, well, she said something about a gang. So like, probably that's why she was killed. It's not our fault. Uh, it's so gross. And so in the end, the jurors ruled that Martha and her parents were 80% responsible, uh, for her death. Uh huh, umm, for...
Em Schulz: They said that specifically.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yep. And...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's, yep.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I've, yeah, jurors were ruled that Martha and her parents were 80% responsible for her death, for her testimony, and allegedly turning down this mystery protection while the detectives were only 20% at fault, which is the wildest thing I ever heard. It sounds like something out of the middle ages.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna throw up.
Christine Schiefer: Like what do you mean, 20?
Em Schulz: That sounds like something a cop would say today of like, well, I'm only 20% responsible. What, what are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: 20, 80% of time I'm good a 100% of the time.
Em Schulz: 80% of the time, it is absolutely the victim's fault for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. And we stand by, we've always said that.
Em Schulz: And I've always said that, that always said that would be the first time I mean that, but...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. Anyway, Martha's family, uh, as a result received no compensation. Their daughter was murdered...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Um, you know, all this trauma and just nothing. So Juan on the other hand, settled with the city and the LAPD for $320,000. And it was ruled that he was unjustly confined in, by the way, they put him in Max and they put him in like...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: High offender max, like whatever they call it, high, the supermax, supermax.
Em Schulz: So he was in, he was super, so he was in like super danger.
Christine Schiefer: Correct. He said it was just so...
Em Schulz: The scariest thing in the world.
Christine Schiefer: So deeply traumatizing. Right. And remember, this guy has not been any sort of affiliation with...
Em Schulz: He actively avoids crime and like...
Christine Schiefer: Actively. And I'm not saying... Yeah, whatever, but like, he actively was like, uh, I'm never going to jail again, and I'll make sure of it. And then the universe was like, actually, we have other plans.
Em Schulz: How about supermax.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. How about... How does that sound? I hear what you're saying, but yeah...
Em Schulz: I, I hear you. You're valid, but you're going to supermax.
Christine Schiefer: But thank you so much for sharing. It means a lot. Umm, so it was ruled, he was unjustly confined in maximum security prison for six months while he awaited trial and six months in a like a little four or five year old's eyes, like imagine. And then she sees him...
Em Schulz: Oh my god, your dad's gone.
Christine Schiefer: She's had to sit on stand and say things. I mean, it's so fuck. And seeing him crying while you're talking, you don't get it. And then he comes out and there's cameras and just the overwhelm. Like, I can't even imagine that sweet little child. But thank God, things turned out, you know? Umm, so anyway, Detective Martin Pinner was removed from working homicide cases and...
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: His partner, uh, was transferred to auto fraud detail. Umm, and the reason I haven't said his name is because it's also Juan. It's Juan Rodriguez. So, I was like, let's not bring his first name into this, because if there's another Juan, I'm gonna get so confused. Umm, but yeah, essentially Martin Pinner and Juan Rodriguez both got, uh, kind of booted. They got exiled from homicide, which I imagine is like a tough, uh, tough little swallow. Yeah. When you're in that line of work. The fact that they specified that Juan Rodriguez was transferred to auto fraud makes me laugh so much. It's like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like not just fraud, auto fraud.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Only really niche fraud, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So the FBI pursued Martha's murder case, and they did ultimately convict four men for involvement in the killing, all with gang affiliation. And 30-year-old Paul Robledo was sentenced to life in prison without parole for shooting and killing Martha. And, uh, as you can imagine, Juan probably has quite a few, uh, bad dreams, I imagine, or a bit of a anxiety, but he, thank God, was able to go home and be with his family. Umm, and Larry David did, uh, if you own the DVD box set, uh, there are extras that you can watch where he actually talks about this whole thing and what it was like to help, uh, in a murder trial.
Em Schulz: That's pretty cool.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And I, uh, I took some photo, wait, I'm gonna see, which we probably can't even share them because they're from Netflix, and I feel like something bad might happen.
Em Schulz: But, but it was the Car Pool Lane episode season four.
Christine Schiefer: It sure was. And, umm, let's see the, some of the pictures. Oh, and I, I had, uh, near the end of it, I paused and I took my sleep gummy and I went and I brushed my teeth and like got ready for bed. Umm, and then when I came back and I restarted the episode, I was starting to get a little, like sleepy, a little fuzzy and a little fun. And I started taking pictures. 'cause I was like, whoa, that's deep. And so I started taking pictures of like, quotes people were saying on tv. And I was like, now I'm like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Why am I such a dork? Umm, but one of the lines was like, so jarring. I don't know, I don't know what it was, but the, the attorney for the Dodgers, by the way, he like, he's so scary look at him. Here he is. Umm, he's like, like, you don't fuck around with this guy, you know?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: And he's just staring straight in the camera, the whole interview. And like, woof he's, he's a, he's a character. Umm, oh, but here's Larry David saying, uh, he's like, what am I gonna do with it? Because they asked him like, what are you gonna do with this whole story? He says, maybe I'll tell it at a party how I got a guy off of a murder, impress a date with it. I don't know. I mean, it's just like the most Larry David thing ever. His staff was basically saying like, somehow Larry gets himself into these predicaments that are basically what he would write for a TV show, but it becomes his real life. Like, it's this weird circle.
Em Schulz: Like Curb Your Enthusiasm being just written about, It could have just been written about him. And with the weird...
Christine Schiefer: And it is written about him. That's the thing. Like the story is about him as the, you know, Seinfeld producer and everything. So it's like...
Em Schulz: Well, if they ever did a revival, then this will obviously have to be an episode.
Christine Schiefer: It's so meta. It's like, while I was filming this show, something crazy happened. Umm, and then I just wanted to show this to you and YouTube and hopefully nobody figures out that I'm doing this. Umm, maybe I'll just move the camera so they can't tell.
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think that works. But this is Juan and he's holding, umm, he's holding a baseball card and then they zoom in and it's, it's him as a little kid wearing the Dodgers, umm, wearing the Dodgers outfit. It's just the cutest.
Em Schulz: Oh, so cute.
Christine Schiefer: He has his own little baseball card. Umm, but I think the, oh, it gives me shivers because his, uh, so Alma, his partner was interviewed as well, and she said, she said, it haunts me, like, it still keeps me up at night to think, what if he hadn't gone to that game? What if, uh, you know, I'm trying to think like, what if his daughter didn't wanna go so he stayed home.
Em Schulz: Well what if she didn't want, what if she didn't want candy? What if the PA wasn't...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Yes. And then what if, what if, uh, she, if he hadn't made that phone call and placed himself within a mile.
Em Schulz: Yeah. What if his phone died that day?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And those were those old ass phones, you know.
Em Schulz: Umm, well, the old ass phones lived for like three weeks at time.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, wait, that's so true. That's so true. What if his phone wasn't able to dial out? 'cause there were too many people in the stadium. That was a more likely thing to have happened. Umm, but she was like, yeah, like he's with his friends and his daughter. Like, he just called me to tell me he is on his way home. Like, that's, that's not a for sure thing that would happen. It's like he just happened to call.
Em Schulz: It would make me really paranoid about every moment of like, is this, is this helping me or hurting me? And I just don't know it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Butterfly effect right? It's just the creepiest thing. She says, imagine. And she's like starting to cry 'cause she's clearly so traumatized by this. But she says, imagine he would've stayed home to watch that game. What if the camera crew hadn't gone to that specific aisle? You know, what if...
Em Schulz: What if his, what if his mom actually did want to go to the game and he lost the tickets?
Christine Schiefer: And he is like, shit, that wasn't part of the plan. Umm, what if the daughter didn't feel like going? What if he hadn't made that phone call? What if, what if, what if? And then, ooh, that's when I just scrolled and I got to that scary Dodger lawyer. He said, all of life is what if.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, ah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know? And then I stayed up for two more hours 'cause I couldn't sleep. So, uh, yeah, that's the story. It's just one of those where it like, feels like it can't get weirder and then all of a sudden it gets so much fucking weirder. Like, when you were like, oh, did they get footage of him at the Dodgers game? And I was like, I mean, no, not really. Like they had to keep looking. Umm, anyway, so that's the story. I just, I, I, uh, props to Saoirse for finding that one. 'cause I really thought, like in the early days of the podcast, I had covered every like, bananagrams, you know, case.
Em Schulz: No. That's a great one.
Christine Schiefer: But wow. With Larry David involved. And by the way, like he's such a doofus. I don't, I mean, I don't know much about Larry David, but umm, he does make me laugh. But there is a YouTube, like a deleted scene type, not a deleted scene, like an extra, you know, content type thing where they interview like the him and, uh, talk about what happened. Umm, and so I highly recommend that it's only like seven minutes long. 'cause it's like a DVD extra that it is on YouTube. So I'll, uh, I'll link, I always say we'll link to that and then I'm like, poor Eva and Megan and Jack have to find it. But, uh, I will link to that and I will link to the documentary on Netflix. Umm, uh, it's called Long Shot. That's the documentary. Umm, it's just really powerful. And it is on Netflix. And, uh, it's not to be confused with the other Long Shot, which appears to be a, as Netflix claims raunchy, irreverent comedy starring Seth Rogan. So.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Not that one. It's the other one.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's not Seth Rogan. Yes, it is. Uh, so anyway, you'll, you'll know it when you see it. It's, it's the sad one, not the fun romantic comedy.
Em Schulz: Okay. So yeah. Got it. Easy.
Christine Schiefer: Easy.
Em Schulz: Well, great story Christine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Great, great... It has ups and downs and valleys and mountains and oh, it has it all.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like a Larry David narration. You know, just like something totally off the wall.
Em Schulz: Totally off the wall n-noodle room, the noodle room or whatever...
Christine Schiefer: I'm trapped in the noodle room. I felt like that when I read these notes and I was like, this is this real? This feels like a fake, this feels like the onion, you know? Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah. No, but it's the noodle actually, different food, different food. Wah, wah, wah. Well, uh, if you would like to hear us continue to ramble, you can hop on over to, uh, Patreon and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I'll show you. I'll show my doodle. Oh, that sounds like a dirty thing. It's not a dirty thing. I'll show my noodle on the after chat.
Em Schulz: I'll show you my noodle.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'll show you... No, I'll show my doodle on the after chat. What you take, take that to mean whatever you want it to mean. And then sign up for Patreon. Uh, at patreon.com/andthatswhywedrink.
Em Schulz: Uh, also, uh, our book is coming out in September, so please pre-order and, uh, get tickets to our shows. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
