[intro music]
Em Schulz: Christine, how are you feeling the day?
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: Christine's having a sad day.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: I brought some things that I thought might make you happy. I.
Christine Schiefer: I'm really in a bad mood because somebody texted me something really rude and mean and I don't know what's happening, and then they disappeared, and now I'm scared that I did something and I just... It's like, you know when somebody from your past just kind of like shoves their way into your life and you're like, Whoa, where did you come from?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I do.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, so I'm just kind of spinning out today, but thank you for... Thank you for bringing me something happy. What is it?
Em Schulz: I have, I don't know if I'm allowed to say who. I'm sure I probably can, but because I haven't checked, I'm just gonna roll with...
Christine Schiefer: What? The person that I'm talking about?
Em Schulz: Ano, ano, anonymity, no. Someone I know, someone in my family is a... Could you imagine if I was like, and they're here today.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, uh, this is not probably the smartest move on a true crime show.
Em Schulz: Someone in my family is a furry. Do you know what a furry is?
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Okay. So this weekend as we're recording was Anthrocon, which is like a big furry convention. Um. And I was creeping on them on Find My Friends, and I went, "I know where you are." And I decided that I was like, I don't know enough about this situation. For those who...
Christine Schiefer: Wait. I don't understand. Were they at Anthrocon?
Em Schulz: They were at Anthrocon.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And I didn't... I didn't know enough about Anthrocon to start a conversation with them, but I wanted to because I, we're supportive. And I looked at the event schedule because I was like, I feel like I could probably gauge something to say about them at furry con or Anthrocon. Uh. I, I could find something if I just use some context clues based on what the event schedule has to say. Wow...
Christine Schiefer: You're like, wow, the hot... The hotdog stand has some real great relish this year huh.
Em Schulz: You know, Christine, I looked at this event schedule, I've never seen anything, first of all, more fucking intriguing, the event schedule alone makes me wanna become a furry. But on top of that, um I... It did not give me any context clues. It was so riddled with just a bunch of neuro-divergent people said with love, by the way, but I'm gonna show you this event schedule, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Every single event was clearly...
Christine Schiefer: Where, where is Anthrocon?
Em Schulz: It was in Pittsburgh, I think.
Christine Schiefer: And you're saying...
Em Schulz: But the event schedule made no sense, I'm gonna send you the schedule.
Christine Schiefer: So, sorry, just so we get all on the same page. So this is a, a friend of... Wait, this is a family member, you said, and you...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And you, you did not know they were a furry or you did before?
Em Schulz: I knew they were a furry. I just didn't know how to talk to them about them being at Anthrocon. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Got it. But they, they are aware that you know, it's not like a secret or something that you're gonna...
Em Schulz: Oh no, it's, it's often discussed around, around dinner tables. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay, cool. So here it is. Okay. Anthro... Oh.
Em Schulz: So, I thought it was...
Christine Schiefer: His-history of baseball mascots. Happy birthday Godzilla. Wow, this is so fun.
Em Schulz: I'm telling you. Okay. I wrote down my favorites because there's a lot to look through, there was... It was like a four-day affair, I think. Um.
Christine Schiefer: This is unbelievable.
Em Schulz: So I was like, I don't know where to start. I really thought this was gonna help me start a conversation with them about furies. Here's some that I wrote down, that...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm... I'm picking my favorite and I'm curious if yours is... If, if my favorite is on your list.
Em Schulz: Okay. Starting strong, we have practical stabbing, which apparently is...
Christine Schiefer: What? I didn't see that.
Em Schulz: Which is about, apparently, like needle work and making your own furry costumes.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." How fucking genius, these people are funny.
Em Schulz: There is one called goat scream up were instead of a meet up, you just go meet up to scream.
Christine Schiefer: To scream, right? Sure.
Em Schulz: Inflatable Zoo. Then there was Ony, The Runaway Circus Bear rock opera. There was the uh uh... There's two different events, by the way, for people who are like really into roller coasters.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And so there was... Um. There was one called like Ask A Ride operator or so you wanna be a ride operator, and then there was another one called like Rollercoaster Enthusiasts Electromagnetic Launchaloo. And I think you get launched, that's what I'm understanding.
Christine Schiefer: Launchaloo, oh.
Em Schulz: There was another one called I've Made Too Much Pasta. Love that.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, wait, what. That one took me a minute. I was like, sorry, was that part of this, or is that just a side note. Okay.
Em Schulz: There was apparently like a debate meet up, but it was like in mass, and so they called it Mass Debation. Um. They had Anthrocon Dead Dog Dance! Where I guess you dance like on, on, on the floor. I don't understand. And then uh Ohio Meetup. And then...
Christine Schiefer: There's always an Ohio Meetup everywhere.
Em Schulz: And then my favorite because I know so many people, Oh, I don't know so many people who are furries, but I know generally in the fandom a lot of like, like parents who don't understand what's going on will like in support bring their kid, but don't know where to go once they've dropped their kid off. There was a meeting literally called, So Your Kid Dragged You To Anthrocon.
Christine Schiefer: No. Wait, that's great. These... I think these people need to schedule every event ever.
Em Schulz: I mean.
Christine Schiefer: Because this is like so over... Like I, I did... I scrolled through it before you listed those, I didn't even catch any of those on this big list because they're...
Em Schulz: That's why I wrote some down. That's...
Christine Schiefer: So many. Well, my favorite is personally, 9:30 PM Eastern, let's see. Uh. The Art of Making Horny Comics.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. You gotta know.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty good. There's a Zoology 101. Just in case like, you need to know um the basics, I guess.
Em Schulz: There's also this Zootopia fan meet up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: I guess, because a lot of them dress up. I'm assuming there's like, there's gotta be one Zootopia costume in the furry family.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure. I'm sure. Jousting, I mean. Wow. Rescuing senior dog. Oh, this one was cancelled. Let's see, 3D Printing Fursuit Parts got cancelled. That's a bummer. Um.
Em Schulz: That is a bummer. That sounds really cool.
Christine Schiefer: I think so. You want to be a ride operator is so funny and random. Like, it's like, what... This is like a work... This is like a, a job convention, an employee convention, and also...
Em Schulz: It's everything and...
Christine Schiefer: It's everything. A craft fair, it's...
Em Schulz: And they're, they're really... And that's what I'm saying, I know that this entire thing was funded, organized, directed, scheduled, starring only neurodivergent people probably because they said, fuck it to the corporate idea of a schedule, fuck it to a, to a convention schedule, if you wanna know about bas... Baseball mascots, go to this place, if you wanna know about model trains, go to this place. If you wanna know...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's like... And it's like anybody. It's like anybody can have an event, you are a ride operator, come on in, have a, have a conference room. I love it.
Em Schulz: It was like the only requirement was like you have to have a hyper-fixation and then other people will probably also have that hyper-fixation, and I thought it was just so beautiful, so beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: Or it's almost also like, find your... Come to this event.
Em Schulz: Find your people.
Christine Schiefer: Find... No, find your hyper-fixation.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." I love that. Because you know what, the second I saw there were two roller coaster enthusiasts situations, I knew I was like, there's something there I should actually become hyper-fixated on this. So you're totally right.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say it. I feel like, there's all these interest here that I could like, uh Press Your Luck, the game show, like how fun they're doing a game show, I mean. I would be... Oh my god. The Making of "Pawperty Damage", um which is a video game. A furry video game. I mean, wow. There really is something for everybody. Um.
Em Schulz: There was lit... I've never seen a convention so well stacked in interest...
Christine Schiefer: And mean stacked.
Em Schulz: They're like... There's no... There was a whole pagan furry, a place I would have gone to.
Christine Schiefer: I was about to say, hi, there's a Christian furrers uh too. So you know.
Em Schulz: Everyone has a, has a shot.
Christine Schiefer: Like everyone has a place here. This is wild.
Em Schulz: They also had one area that was just called like the drawing room, and it was apparently just a room where you just like, I think it's like a sensory space to like just draw and color, and that was what I heard at least, but uh yeah. It just seemed like they had a little space for everyone, and I just thought it was the most genius scheduling I've ever seen. They were naming things. I mean, practical stabbing and I've had too much pasta. Are you kidding?
Christine Schiefer: Practical... But, yeah, pasta. Wait. I forgot about those. Those are so good.
Em Schulz: They've really decided like, I don't care what, what works for anyone else, it works for me.
Christine Schiefer: This is beautiful.
Em Schulz: And that's all that fucking matters [0:08:28.4] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Jeez, I mean, 508 people attended, I Made Too Much Pasta and that's... And that is apparently the name of a band, so they put out a performance.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: But 508 people attended. Um. What was the other one? It was uh...
Em Schulz: Practical stabbing?
Christine Schiefer: Practical stabbing. Where can you find that. Oh. All right. It's a felting, right. You did say that. Oh my gosh. Wow.
Em Schulz: I mean, like, every... Inflatable Zoo. I absolutely wanna see what that's about, like...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: A, a rock opera starring a circus bear, I wanna know what that's about. Like, what are you talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking count me in.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I saw all of that, and again, remember I was going into this event schedule hoping for context clues.
Christine Schiefer: Just to find.
Em Schulz: To bond.
Christine Schiefer: Just to relate to it.
Em Schulz: And I, I think my exact texts were like back and forth were like, Oh wow, I actually don't... This isn't helping at all.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. Well, you should just ask like what events did they go to. Because I would love to know.
Em Schulz: I did.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you did.
Em Schulz: So I, I asked about the Ohio Meet Up because I was like, I have to... What, why...
Christine Schiefer: Are they form Ohio? Your person that you're talking about.
Em Schulz: No, but I was like, that one of... Weirdly out of all of them, that was the most random one to me. Where I was like, why Ohio. And apparently...
Christine Schiefer: Oh that feels like the most generic one, especially if it's in Pennsylvania, because that's like next door.
Em Schulz: Well, I was told that apparently like 60% of the convention attendees are from Ohio.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, that's not surprising. I feel like Ohio has... I know I've told you that before too, of like, we have every... Like everyone thinks Ohio is so boring, but then like all the alien shit happens here, all the weird conspiracies happened here, there's like... It's just very strange, like, even when you're in LA and you're like at a bar or something, you're like, I'm from Ohio, like, I swear three people around you will go, I'm also from Ohio. It's like a very strange phenomenon, but yeah, it looks like quite a few people attended the Ohio Meet Up, so.
Em Schulz: Apparently the only one that they did go to of my list that I just sent you, I also sent it to them, and I was like, I think...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: What? No.
Christine Schiefer: Well, well, well. I come to you live from a much smarter background than usual.
Em Schulz: Would you like to explain the background, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Okay. I will.
Christine Schiefer: Just pretend I'm very educated and play six violins.
Em Schulz: We were suppose to record yesterday, and uh by the way, I'm still in the troll hole, but my internet is working just fine now, ironically, and uh Christine's uh internet apparently went down, down, down, down, down, and we ended up having to cancel the recording yesterday until she can move somewhere else. Do you wanna explain the tape on the wires situation?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god, I was gonna say, we have to post those photos, they're so outrageous. I was on Reddit, figuring out why do... Like, trying to figure out why I don't get enough internet, my brother was on the phone with me, we were like, what is going on. Like, you pay for a 1000 gigabytes and you're getting like 19. That doesn't make sense. So I went and some guys said, sometimes it's not the router, because I called my provider and they said, we're wiring all that to you, you are receiving it. But if you're not getting it, that's something at your end. So I was like, all right, let me follow this wire. Oh, interesting, it goes through a cabinet, through a fire place, up a chimney and out the wall. And I was like, that's strange. What a fun scavenger hunt. And so I went outside to find where the, the wires went, oh, they had broken off years ago, but somebody decided to just wrap the loose frayed wires inside the co... Cable together and just postal tape, use like, just fucking...
Em Schulz: Packaging tape.
Christine Schiefer: Packaging tape to tape it together, and that was how all the wires were, and they're just hanging off the brick wall outside in the rain, and I'm sitting they're going, well, no wonder I don't get fucking internet, and I've been paying so much money for like the best internet. Um.
Em Schulz: How does that eve... How did you even get internet with that? Like, how do... Like, how does your house not catch on fire?
Christine Schiefer: I know. I get like very base level internet, I guess. Like, what you would get at just like a, you know.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It was very, very low. Low, low. And then depending on the day, it would be like, probably if it's fucking raining, I suddenly don't have internet. Who know? It's like, remember, when we used to have like satellite dishes and shit, and it would be like, Oh, the weather is acting up, we can't watch the sports game.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, what? What kind of world did we live in? But so apparently...
Em Schulz: I totally forgot about that.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that weird?
Em Schulz: You totally just brought that back. Yeah. Like, it would start getting stormy and so the TV will start getting glitchy, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Fuzzy. Which like all you wanna do when it's storming is watch TV and it's like, well, great. So now we can't even do that.
Em Schulz: Yeah, or like when the... I mean, not just when the power would go out, but if there was like a really bad storm, you could... The only thing you couldn't do was watch TV if the whole TV went out, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh tragic. Well, so anyway.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I de... I decided um to move into my mother's office and, uh you know, she... I swear to god Em... I wish I could show you these. She has monitors... Let me see if I can... They're like this big. She has two of them. She had, okay, actually, I haven't [0:13:13.3] ____.
Em Schulz: How big is that room for you to echo like you're in castle?
Christine Schiefer: Do you hear how I'm echoing? Echo. Echo. Okay. Look at this.
Em Schulz: Sound like a Bridgerton. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Here's the ring light she has, for some reason. I'm like, what are you doing in here. I walk in and like...
Em Schulz: What is she doing that needs a ring light?
Christine Schiefer: Teaching, I guess. I'm like, wow your skin must look flawless. But look, she has [0:13:29.9] ____. How do I do this? Okay. She's gonna be like, I didn't give you permission.
Em Schulz: Everyone liking this ride. Take your Dramamine.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, please don't throw up, but she has two of these giant monitors.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like, I, I moved in and I was like, why am I even recording at my house, I should just do it here. Um.
Em Schulz: You know, that does look like a professor's background.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, right, and it is. Um. And so that's why, I mean, even the stuff on the walls, I'm like, Oh wow, so I'm like, an original um ticket to the, the Zeplin, the, the Zeplin. The giant blimp.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Frame-framed in front of me. Um. A picture of my brother on the wall.
Em Schulz: Not you though, that's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: No. I found myself actually um in the drawer.
Em Schulz: In the drawer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, here I am. Thanks Mom. Oh, and then... Oh, and It is here. Which is just like...
Em Schulz: It? Like Pennywise?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So remember It?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, this is It. This is my mom's creepy doll that she gets really upset when I call it creepy. Um. But like, let's take a moment to just...
Em Schulz: Just could you actually do everyone a favor and just hide your face for the rest of the episode, and I just gonna talk to It.
Christine Schiefer: My mom's like, you're hurting It's feelings, I'm like, can we stop with that? It's not funny anymore, but she's, she's sure, she's not joking. Um. But yeah, this was her childhood doll, she chewed the years off as a baby. Um.
Em Schulz: That sounds like you got it from somewhere didn't you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, sure did. And so this is like her weird attachment that she has, um and it sits on her desk, so, you know, nothing is quite normal ever in this house.
Em Schulz: My mom had, my mom had a fox named Foxy, of course, and the way... Foxy is busted, I'll ask my mom to send a picture of Foxy and we'll post it.
Christine Schiefer: You should show Foxy.
Em Schulz: Foxy does not look nearly as in good condition. That looks like you still bought it like five or 10 years ago, that looks like it's...
Christine Schiefer: This?
Em Schulz: Yeah, it looks like it's in great condition. I mean, besides the ears.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think you got a good look at them, my friend. Let's see.
Em Schulz: Uh. Let's just put it this way, I don't have to. Okay, well, now he's nakey.
Christine Schiefer: All right.
Em Schulz: No, because I think once you see a picture of Foxy, you're gonna know...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you're probably right.
Em Schulz: You're gonna be very proud of that.
Christine Schiefer: I will say he, he needs some um surgery because he's...
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: He's definitely gone through it, but um...
Em Schulz: But he looks like he's just like he went through one rainstorm and now... And he's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: But he looks pretty good. Maybe I'm saying this so he won't curse me tonight, but...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say you're seeing a little too uh exuberant or too enthusiastic about... Look his head is filled with straw, isn't that wild? That's what...
Em Schulz: I'm gonna send you a picture of Foxy. Everyone will know and everyone will agree, by the way, that that looks... It looks incredibly better than because my mom used to carry...
Christine Schiefer: Keep, keeping on the team It, I'm not. So...
Em Schulz: You say that you haven't seen a picture of Foxy, he's fucking busted um. Foxy, she also kept under her arm here for years and years and years, so his neck is barely on and um all of the fur is gone, he has one eye ball, he's not full of straw, but I think think packaging foam. Uh Apparently, he had so many surgeries, probably he had so many surgeries where my mom's mom would just shove any garbage in there just to keep him stuffed up.
Christine Schiefer: Just cigarette butts.
Em Schulz: Just... I'm sorry, it's just a sack of trash at this point... Um.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, well, now you're gonna get cursed by Foxy, it sounds like... So be careful there.
Em Schulz: I've been saying all this to Foxy's face my entire life, I've been going whoa, I do not want to inherit Foxy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think I, I think I accidentally revealed a little... I'm sorry IT I wasn't trying to put you on blast. But um I just...
Em Schulz: You literally just completely stripped It.
Christine Schiefer: I just, I just can't deal with when my mom carries it around and talks to him, and I'm like, it's... Can we not? Can we not? Like she'll be drinking wine and she'll be... No, you're not since when you literally came to my house and you said get rid of... We had a whole pile of these freaking creepy old dolls and you said you wouldn't even go into the room, and now suddenly your team It. My mom is gonna be so thrilled.
Em Schulz: I'm team not being uh against people still having a, a comfort pal from their childhood.
Christine Schiefer: Okay well I'm not dissing that to be clear. Oh my God. Now you're making me look like a terrible person.
Em Schulz: Uh. Also, you're homophobic. That's crazy. Let's, let's the... Let's just list it all.
Christine Schiefer: Today is not the day Emathy, I love you. But today is not the day.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Well we uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah, Christine is in a rush, so we're actually gonna keep it sweet and short however we can.
Christine Schiefer: Are we?
Em Schulz: Um so we've... I am just gonna go straight into the story 'cause I know you are um... We've got not a lot of time. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Well, thank you for taking the time to call me homophobic and um...
Em Schulz: And an transphobic.
Christine Schiefer: Ageist and transphobic, before we can start that it was important that you got those things in before we got started.
Em Schulz: I didn't even mention the ableism. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, cool.
Em Schulz: Do you want too, or we can just skip past it or...
Christine Schiefer: I think it's okay, I think you've said enough.
Em Schulz: Well, here we go. Today we are covering uh... Let's see, oh my god, I forgot the, the name of the fucking building. Okay, oh okay, I found it. Uh. Also, Christine, why do you drink? Besides being um an awful person. Just kidding, just kidding you're... Before anyone, before, by the way before comments show up here...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm waiting for them. No I'm waiting for them. No I'm waiting for them. I'm waiting for them. Please bring them on. I would like everyone [0:18:26.0] ____.
Em Schulz: No. If you're gonna bring anything, bring it to me that I turned it into a joke. Christine was just a, a victim of my humor. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, is that what it was, oh?
Em Schulz: Why do you, why do you drink? Is it because of all those thing?
Christine Schiefer: Because everything's falling apart, and I cannot even get Em on my side about creepy dolls anymore. It's like the second I'm like, "Yeah, you're right. Dolls are creepy." and I was like, "No, you're just being really mean to your own mom." I'm like, "Since when?"
Em Schulz: I think...
Christine Schiefer: You literally gave me so much shit for, for liking a lemon and liking a teddy bear, whatever. And then you're like, I... Getting attached to things and now you're like, "I'm not against people getting attached to things." I'm like, "Since when?" That's literally all you were for a long time.
Em Schulz: I think I'm gonna be team It because I have a very strong feeling you're gonna be team Foxy, so I'm just trying to even out the score.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, that's why I drink and I just drink room temperature sparkling water, because even though my mom was so gracious to let me use her whole office today, I do have to put her on blast one more time and say, "They don't refrigerate their sparkling waters so... "
Em Schulz: That's fair. I'm with you on that.
Christine Schiefer: Just lukewarm, and it's not okay.
Em Schulz: Lukewarm anything is bad, but specifically sparkling water, it's supposed to feel... The whole point of it being sparkling, it's supposed to be crisp and fresh. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's supposed to just feel tingly and cold. Yeah, it's not.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, I feel bad for you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Um I'm drinking an LD, and I don't know why I drink, but um...
Christine Schiefer: I'll give you a reason by the end of the... End of the day.
Em Schulz: Yeah, we'll figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. So I'm covering the Gilcrease House, which Gilcrease just sounds like one of the worst last names you could get. Um. This is in Tulsa, Oklahoma. How far away is Tulsa from you?
Christine Schiefer: I don't fucking know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think I've ever been to Oklahoma. No idea.
Em Schulz: Okay. I just hear Oklahoma...
Christine Schiefer: Is it close me? I have no idea.
Em Schulz: No, I don't know. I hear Oklahoma, I think Ohio. I just assume you all know each other.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, you think Ohio, oh because of the, the O?
Em Schulz: The O.
Christine Schiefer: Cincinnati to Tulsa drive. Um. That's a cool 12 hours or sorry, 11 and a half hours drive. It's not [0:20:13.5] ____ it's not by me.
Em Schulz: Okay. So not next door neighbor as my brain tells me me. Okay, anyone in Tulsa, this is for you. This is the Gilcrease House. Uh. It was owned originally by a family called the Mackeys, and then in 1909 they sold the land to the Nelson family. Now, my favorite thing about the Nelson family is that the man of the house, his name was Flower.
Christine Schiefer: Flower Nelson?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: What a nice name.
Em Schulz: I love that. Um. He and his wife built a house on the property, and they were only there for a few years. And by 1913, this oil tycoon uh named Thomas Gilcrease, buys the property. And he buys, what is at the time, like, it's like 80 to 90 acres of land that this house sits on a lot of fucking land.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Later, he expanded to 460 acres.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: Uh. Like he... So in my mind, he owns Tulsa. That's fucking [0:21:11.5] ____.
Christine Schiefer: And Ohio too.
Em Schulz: And all of Ohio, yeah. Um. So okay, so he buys it in 1913, he's uh... He becomes an oil tycoon, he's a philanthropist, uh and he... Just to give you some idea of his background, he has a Native American descent, he is from the Creek Nation, which apparently is similar to... Or it's the same thing, but different word for Muscogee. Why did I say it like that, Muscogee, Jesus. Um, uh. But apparently, Muscogee and Creek are the same. That's my understanding, if I'm wrong, please come at me. Um. I'm totally fine with that. And they... So he lived on the reservation since he was a little kid, but then in the 1900s, I think in 1900, exactly, the federal government dissolved the land, and so a bunch of the people who live on the reservation we're getting parts of the acreage, and he got his part of the acreage at 9 years old. And uh interestingly, when he got this part of the acreage, it later was found out to have quite a lot of oil under it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And uh he ended up becoming very rich by 20 when he, when, when he struck oil on his land.
Christine Schiefer: This is Gilcrease, right? That we're talking about.
Em Schulz: Gilcrease, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So he started on the reservation, ended up kind of getting his own piece of the acreage and then uh found out that a struck oil, by 20, he was super rich, and by 32, he had his own oil company.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: So he married twice, he had three kids. And 1913 comes around, he's now moving into the house that once belonged to Flower Nelson.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The home is... It was originally, when he moved in, it was just one floor, it had nine rooms, plus a veranda, plus a barn, plus a garage.
Christine Schiefer: My goodness.
Em Schulz: And he, and he... I mean he, he had all he needed.
Christine Schiefer: He had it all.
Em Schulz: And he ends up living there for the next 30 years. So from 1913 to 1943 uh Gilcrease lives in this house. Eventually he travels to Europe a lot. This guy becomes obsessed with uh like, American West art.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, some people get really into that.
Em Schulz: I have been into a lot of things. That's not one of them. I...
Christine Schiefer: That's a big industry. Well, also you have to think about his background, being from that area.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like I imagine that's probably part of his upbringing too, and like...
Em Schulz: Totally.
Christine Schiefer: Culturally significant, but there are big pockets, I guess. Especially in, um, in China, uh they are, they are huge like Americana... Like people collectors who like collect wild west Americana and, and that kind of thing and even bourbon and moonshine and all that, and have it, they like go for big bucks and they uh will like bid on it and stuff.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, you know, so art, maybe it's because it's like this big, expensive... In my mind, it's like the, a, a rich, wealthy type of collection. Like, uh if you're gonna collect anything, art is like the most fancy pants thing you could collect. But I've never seen art and gone, "Mm, I gotta collect that." I've never like... Maybe it's just not my thing, but I'm shocked that... I don't think it's not my thing, I think I just haven't hyper-fixated on it yet.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, ah.
Em Schulz: I think anything's possible.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I mean, and art doesn't mean necessarily oil paintings, it could be like um traditional weavings or like, you know, sculpture, like, yeah.
Em Schulz: You know, I do, I do keep telling Allison now that we've got the Schulz-fulth manor, I'm like, we do need an oil painting of us over the mantle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, of course.
Em Schulz: So at some point maybe that will be...
Christine Schiefer: You know what's so funny is people have made us oil paintings of Gio and people have made us oil paintings of ourselves you should just put one of us over your mantle with Allison. I'm sure she'd love that.
Em Schulz: She would love that. Yeah, I could actually just put ours up and then I'll just print out a picture of her...
Christine Schiefer: That works.
Em Schulz: Face and just tape it on with like scotch tape on your face and, but the body will be the some.
Christine Schiefer: Well, when I come... But when I come over, can you take that off? Because I'd like to see myself [0:25:12.7] ____.
Em Schulz: Yes, obviously, even when, even when she goes to the grocery store, I'm gonna take it off.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: It's just when she's around. But anyway, I, I am excited to get a... I would like to get a, an oil painting of the two of us that we like frame but put it on... Put on hinges, and so it's like a little door on the wall.
Christine Schiefer: Oh a little safe behind it.
Em Schulz: And there's a, a little safe, yeah. Or like, I did tell her on Etsy, people make like busts, like, like stat... Head statues. And I was like, we should get a bust of each of us and then put that on the, um on the secret passage way door.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh.
Em Schulz: I mean, come on. And you should be... You should bend one that's like the lever type in the door.
Christine Schiefer: Creek, and then you should install a microphone that makes a creek sound or a speaker that makes a creek sound. Because your house is probably not gonna creek create by itself.
Em Schulz: It will actually... No, it will not creek. We only have one creek currently in our house, and it's gonna be fixed immediately.
Christine Schiefer: And you're already trying to fix it. I'm like, holy shit, imagine living in a world where you could fix your only creek.
Em Schulz: I know. Well, Miss, I live in a haunted manor, like a real one.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Everything creeks all day long, yeah.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: That's how I like it.
Em Schulz: Okay, so this guy, uh he's living here for 30 years, he's traveling to Europe a lot, and at 22 he buys his first oil painting. This is the beginning of him being obsessed with artwork. Um. And eventually he, he's staying in San Antonio quite a lot instead of um over in Tulsa because in San Antonio, that's where he has the headquarters for his oil company. I do not know why he picked San Antonio, that feels like a weird move, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: I think that there's a lot of oil there.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's a booming industry there.
Em Schulz: Well, so uh during his time in San Antonio, or sorry, during his time in the 30 years living in this house, while he like commutes to San Antonio, um he realizes, I actually am doing most of my work in San Antonio, I'm gonna go there and the Gilcrease House, which I own, I'm just going to leave empty for a while.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: While he is gone, he realizes he could use the house in a better way, and so while he's gone, he turns it into an orphanage for indigenous kids from nearby reservations.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's a big jump from it's empty to now it's an orphanage. Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Yeah, did not see that coming.
Christine Schiefer: I felt like, Oh, I'll rent it out for as an Airbn... I'll do a Vrbo situation for a few months. No, he's like, I'm gonna open up a whole ass orphanage. Wow.
Em Schulz: You do hear oil tycoon and you don't think the next move is like, like for indigenous children orphans.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Wow. What a, what a plot twist. Okay.
Em Schulz: So, okay, so it's now it's an orphanage. Uh. During this time because it's an orphanage, he adds a second floor to the house just to make more room, I think he even has an entire other building.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow.
Em Schulz: Um. So that way everyone's got enough room. But, uh-oh, the orphanage only last a few years because there were some sort of management, administrative issues going on. We don't know what those were.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It sounds dramatic though.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. So it closes pretty quickly, I think it was either five or nine years, I think it was five years, that was, was as long as it stayed open. This was all while he was in San Antonio, but uh on top of orphanage back at home, while he's in San Antonio, his art collection is growing and he's like, "man, I... Man, do I love art." That's what he's been saying.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "hey, orphan, orphanage kids, don't you love oil paintings?" They're like, "no, that's really not our interest. Do you have any toys? A yoyo."
Em Schulz: Or parents.
Christine Schiefer: Or pa... Em-a.
Em Schulz: Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is wrong with you? You got a hoop and stick or a mom and dad. Yeah, there you go, Em.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like I, I prefer family right now. Um. So anyway, he's like absolutely trying to cater to these kids back at home, it is not working. But what is working is his art collection. Yikes. Um. And so he actually has so much art now, he doesn't know what to do, that he, he like doesn't nowhere to put it, he does like he's at a loss. So he ends up renting bigger space just to keep his art collection and turns it into his words, not mine, the Museum of the American Indian.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um. He also, now that he's got the space, same thing happens when you like move into a big ass house, I guess, he, he was like, well, now that I've got the space, I should just keep buying art.
Christine Schiefer: See, you fill it. You fill your space. It's what happens.
Em Schulz: You, you find a way. So he continues to expand his art collection, and this includes several indigenous artists in his collection. So he's got whole sections where just indigenous artists, are, are where he's getting his art. Um. Fun fact apparently, this includes um what are in his, in his collection, one of the things that he bought that was like one of his bigger purchases, I think, was the entire collection of Dr. Philip Gillette Cole. And apparently, he's like a, a big name in art. Again, that's the one place I have not ravaged around in. Um. But the amount that he paid for the entire collection, he couldn't even afford one piece of that guys art today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So he made a deal, it was like a good deal back in the day.
Christine Schiefer: I've, I've heard of this person, I think this artist.
Em Schulz: I looked him up and um it felt like I was gonna have to do like a totally different topic on him, so I just kinda just left about his name.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, okay.
Em Schulz: Um. But apparently, he's a big time artist, and like one piece of his art today would be worth more than the entire collection that um Gilcrease bought.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And because Gilcrease in his art collection, he's um including so many indigenous artists and his work, he is even honored by the Sioux Nation and uh made an honorary member. And then they give him the name. I hope I'm saying it right, Wicarpi Wakatuya, which means high star.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's lovely.
Em Schulz: And so, so he's being recognized by um by other nations for him representing them in his art collection, and by 1949, he moves back to Tulsa um...
Christine Schiefer: From San An, from San Antonio.
Em Schulz: From San Antonio. It's been empty this whole time, and it was especially now that it was now empty all this time after the orphanage didn't work out. So he was like, "Well, no one's here, I'm just gonna move back home." He brings his oil company with him, and he brings the museum with him, he opens the San Antonio museum back in Tulsa.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he renames it, the Thomas Gilcrease Institute of American History and Art.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And he opens up the museum on the grounds of his home, which is how we get like 460 acres over time, um and... I mean he brought his entire art collection and it was probably already bigger than that one museum he was paying for any way in San Antonio. It was a big ass collection, he had so many pieces, he didn't have enough space now in Tulsa uh for to display all of it, so now he opens a... Uh he opens this museum that I just, I just named, he opens it to the public that way other people can now see this stuff too.
Em Schulz: 'cause apparently, I guess he originally had it all out on display, he even hired an architect uh at some point to like create a museum just for him.
Christine Schiefer: To just display it all, but not for, for outside strangers.
Em Schulz: Yes. Like hiring an architect to make like the world's biggest trophy case essentially.
Christine Schiefer: Cool, cool, cool, cool.
Em Schulz: And, and then he later, he was like, "Okay, I'm gonna open up to the public." So in the 1950s uh oil prices began to decline, so his career starts to suffer and he's struggling to afford maintaining his collection or even paying for new pieces to finish out parts of the collection, and he has like such an insane amount of debt, I think it was like two and a half million dollars or something. He has so much debt and he is really struggling because oil prices are down, that he thinks of just selling his entire collection altogether, just so he knows that at, at least is all together and all intact versus people just taking pieces of it.
Christine Schiefer: Pieces.
Em Schulz: Um, but apparently his museum now that's open to the public uh Tulsa is getting, I guess, tourism money from that, or people are just obviously coming in more, and so they start freaking out that he's gonna sell the collection because then they lose a museum basically.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: So citizens of Tulsa get together and they like, have some sort of like town hall meeting, I guess, and they vote to get a bond that will pay all of his debts.
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: Yeah and like Gilcrease, I don't even know if he was involved in that. It sounds like other people who just liked his museum and didn't wanna lose it, agreed to this and then maybe surprised him with like a, "Hey, we paid off your debt."
Christine Schiefer: With a giant check.
Em Schulz: An oil painting of it, act-actually. Um. So Gilcrease is now technically debt-free, but other people paid his debts off, and so after he saw the kindness of Tulsa, he d-decided that he was going to deed the collection to them after he died.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's nice.
Em Schulz: And he also, uh whatever funds he could give them at the time, he agreed to like pay uh to help maintain the museum, I think he had a foundation and he agreed in his deed that like the foundation would help pay until the bond was was given back, essentially. So in 1962, Thomas Gilcrease dies, his remains are entombed on the grounds and uh his final piece of art, I suppose.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, beautiful.
Em Schulz: And the grounds are still open to the public, the house is not... I guess the house has been open every now and then because they'll try to start up like art classes or something. Um like I know they did art classes for a while or lectures, and so they open it up, but then they always seem to close it and then not use it. So anyway, the, the grounds, like the gardens and everything are still open to the public.
Em Schulz: Um. The property, again, expanded to 460 acres, that includes 23 of those acres being gardens, he was a big garden guy, and he was an even bigger bird guy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, he has so many hobbies, this guy.
Em Schulz: He... Yeah, he was into gardens, more into birds, more into art. That's the...
Christine Schiefer: Most into paintings.
Em Schulz: Most into paintings. Um but he... But yeah, apparently it was a big bird guy, and one of the favorite things to do was walk around his garden, and go look at the birds which when you've got 23 acres of garden, you've got a lot to cover.
Christine Schiefer: And then you go inside and above your fireplace is another painting of a garden with a bird and you're like, "Wow, I can see them everywhere."
Em Schulz: And next to it is the other painting of the big check where people paid off my debts.
Christine Schiefer: Wow life is good.
Em Schulz: Life is just perfect. Um. So these gardens, fun fact, uh I guess he... 'cause to him, I, I'm assuming the gardens were also a form of art, because the way that he designed it was that they uh showcased the... Is a quote "showcased the gardening styles of different periods in the American West and plants that were culturally used by Native Americans." And then another quote about the museum, "The museum today houses one of the world's most extensive collections of Native American and western art and artifacts." And then just to show you like how intense collection was, another quote is that "during his lifetime, Gilcrease collected more than 10,000 artworks, 250,000 that's a quarter million, Native American artifacts and 100,000 rare books and documents, including the only surviving certified copy of the Declaration of Independence."
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: He was...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: He had quite a collection.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. And now to tell you about the ghosties there, the things he collected, he did not [0:37:17.0] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I didn't even, I didn't even... I was like, from the five years it was an orphanage, but duh, all the collections of stuff that makes so much more sense.
Em Schulz: Well, so um actually the very first ghost is Thomas Gilcrease himself at the house, he's seen wandering, uh mainly floating through the gardens.
Christine Schiefer: Delightful.
Em Schulz: And he's often looking up at the sky. A lot of people say he's not looking... I guess some people say he's looking up at the sky in some like spiritual religious way, like seeing a light, but a lot of people say that guy was just probably fucking birdwatching.
Christine Schiefer: That's [0:37:50.7] ____ I was literally about to say. Well, obviously he's bird watching. What do you mean, he is just having a religion... He's looking for another grackle.
Em Schulz: I, I was gonna say, do you happen to know any birds native to Tulsa, Oklahoma, that he might have been like looking out for?
Christine Schiefer: Um. I probably don't, and so I'm just gonna say cardinal, because that seems to be every state's state bird. So I'm just gonna say cardinal.
Em Schulz: Actually, that's a good point. Let me see. Hold on. Uh. State bird, Oklahoma. It is the scissor-tailed flycatcher. Dumbass.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's what I... That's what I was gonna say next, obviously, almost came out of my mouth and you interrupted me so.
Em Schulz: Scissor-tailed flycatcher. She's actually so cute. Hang on, you should Google her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Let, let me take a look real quick. The what? Scissor, what?
Em Schulz: Scissor-tailed flycatcher. The tail looks like two little...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Woah.
Em Schulz: She's beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: What a cool bird.
Em Schulz: And look at her in flight, her tail literally splits like a scissor.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: It looks like the ends are scissor. Oh she's cute.
Christine Schiefer: That is a hot... That is a hot bird.
Em Schulz: That is a hot bird.
Christine Schiefer: That's a weird thing to say, but I, I maintain it.
Em Schulz: No. You know that sometimes you can see, you know, when you see an animal and you're like, if you were a human, you'd be really hot.
Christine Schiefer: Feel like, yeah... I get, yeah. Like I'm sure you're all... You're it in the animal kingdom world, I can see it.
Em Schulz: Most German Shepherds, I think, would be like weirdly hot if they were human, but also none of them would speak to me. Like so, you know, like so hot they wouldn't talk to me.
Christine Schiefer: Especially Gio.
Em Schulz: Well, like they've all got that chiseled jaw and I'm like, I know you would just be at the gym every day, and you take one look at me and not speak to me.
Christine Schiefer: And that... They always... That eye make up is always perfect, I'm like, yeah, way to rub it in.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. There's just some... And then there's also some dogs that you see and you go, I know if you were a human you'd be the fugliest human I'd ever see in my life, you know.
Christine Schiefer: But as a doggy, you're so cute.
Em Schulz: But as a doggy you've got the sweetest little, long, droopy jowls. Speaking of hot animals, uh last thing I'll say, you know who's the hottest of your animals, is Juniper. That's a hot animal.
Christine Schiefer: Oh and he... And he fucking knows it. That's a... It's a double eye color, blue and green eyes. He knows he's special.
Em Schulz: God, he would so weaponize that to get all the girls, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh he knows he's special, he knows it.
Em Schulz: That's another animal who I know would not take me seriously at all of he were human.
Christine Schiefer: He doesn't speak... He doesn't take me seriously as a cat. So I imagine as a person it would be even worse, yeah.
Em Schulz: Interesting, but I think all the hot animals would not talk to me. I wonder what that means psychologically.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think maybe you need to talk to Jordan, Jordan about that.
Em Schulz: I don't know how to address that.
Christine Schiefer: You just did to all of us, so, you know, maybe just play this audio clip for her. I'm, I'm sure she'll understand.
Em Schulz: You know who... Well, no. Okay, I'm now getting too deep into it. Okay, so let's move on quickly before Jordan has like a real like um revelation about my mind. Um. Okay, so Thomas Gilcrease, he's probably bird watching, and that's what he's known to do in his, in his afterlife, that sounds like a great afterlife.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, it's like some people's retirement.
Em Schulz: The ultimate... I was gonna say the ultimate retirement.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is just bird watching for the rest of time.
Christine Schiefer: In your own beautiful gardens. I love that.
Em Schulz: He also uh wanders around his house, which apparently is why the... Or I should say allegedly, is why the turnover rate as a security guard there is so high.
Christine Schiefer: You're kidding.
Em Schulz: They keep, they keep saying that they have to keep getting new staff because they're like freaked out about the man walking around that they can't do anything about.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I love it.
Em Schulz: People have reported seeing him, uh or I guess like full apparitions of him, many of the staff have claimed to just watch him walk around at night and, and you just gotta be cool with that, I don't know if I would wanna have that job.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Every night.
Christine Schiefer: No. No, thanks.
Em Schulz: There's also... Interestingly, not just Thomas Gilcrease, but there's another man that walks around the property and nobody knows who he is.
Christine Schiefer: But a ghost man.
Em Schulz: A ghost man.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: But nobody knows who he is. Um. One person got a picture of him by the balconies, he was wearing a hat, that's as far as we... That's all we know about him pretty much. Others see him wandering the halls, but he is known to make really loud bangs and knocks for investigators if you ask. Sometimes when you don't ask, people have heard loud crashing sounds in rooms next door, and then they go in there and there's nothing wrong with the room.
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: Um. People have also heard a man speaking and even yelling, they think it might be him. And then the other main ghosts that people see are a group of uh up to seven children, which they think are kids from the orphanage.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Um. They're seen mainly playing in the gardens, which I wonder if they're... They can also see the same birds that the ghost of Thomas Gilcrease can see.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I wonder if they see each other.
Em Schulz: I like to think they can see each other, but also, you know, it's so weird is he didn't live there when it was an orphanage.
Christine Schiefer: He wasn't there when the kids were there, yeah.
Em Schulz: They may not even know who this guy is. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Weird. They're like, that's the guy who keeps making us want... Like keeps talking about oil paintings, we just wanna play in a... With some bugs outside. It's that weird man obsessed with paintings.
Em Schulz: Okay, but here's my, my favorite part about the kids is that if you go and investigate there, I guess you can ask the kids for favors and they'll, like they wanna be helpful. And so, one investigative team ask the kids to help them find something from a long, long time ago.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Moments later in the same room, they'd, they had looked at the whole room and now they found on the ground an old earpiece, I don't know what that means, like I'm like guessing from like glasses or something like an old earpiece.
Christine Schiefer: What? Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And they're like, oh, that's weird. And then they left and came back into the same room 10 minutes later and found an old vintage toy. Like, are you kidding me.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Creepy.
Em Schulz: Uh. People hear the little kids laughing and running around, things like that, but throughout the house, in general, people have experienced doors opening and closing on their own, the sounds of them opening and closing on their own. People have gotten pictures of glowing lights and pictures of mists walking by, they've heard footsteps, they've heard whispers, they've had people get their hair tugged, items go missing and then re-appear in weird places, people have gotten some really weird temperature changes, and EVPs, including a woman screaming, help me. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Which again, I feel like most of the EVPs that I saw listed on different sources, none of them made sense with Thomas Gilcrease's history, but I imagine they all have some attachment to artworks that he's brought into the property. So a woman screaming, help me, could be from a piece of artwork, there was also uh... There was one were I saw, I think it was EVPs of um two women talking to each other, but there was never really a time were multiple women were living on the properties, they think it might be from that. Babies crying, that could be from the orphanage, I guess. But it sounded like a lot of the EVPs were what are the artwork is attached to.
Christine Schiefer: So almost like collected in one space.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, how weird.
Em Schulz: Um. People also hear a woman singing, people have heard a piano playing. Really weird is they've heard a big band playing upstairs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's cool.
Em Schulz: That terrifies me. Like, imagine, because they don't...
Christine Schiefer: I would... I honestly, I prefer that to just like two keys of a piano.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I'd rather just hear a whole band, because if it's one piano, I'd be like, oh that's sinister.
Em Schulz: But talk about how... Imagine how jarring that is though, like, it goes from silent to like just the loudest jazz you've ever heard in your life.
Christine Schiefer: L is for the way... I'd be fucking delighted. I don't know what you're talking about. Play me some Glenn Miller Band. Do you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yes, obviously. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously, everyone does.
Em Schulz: There's also, apparently, two... The sound of two men arguing really loudly, and they don't know what this would be in reference to, but people hear two men screaming at each other upstairs.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, no.
Em Schulz: And then the entire building feels like something's angry at you.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, oh no.
Em Schulz: Apparently, there was one investigative team who heard them arguing, who heard the two men arguing and like went to go see what was going on and felt someone standing behind her, and he, he felt apparently very mean, and very nasty. And she was, they like, the whole team left shortly after.
Christine Schiefer: Bad vibes.
Em Schulz: Um. There was one in, investigator named Terry French, who I think is part of the main group who goes here, and this is a, a quote from her, "Cameras fail, cell phones shut off or won't work, we never turn our bus off because we were afraid at one point that we would never be able to get it started again."
Christine Schiefer: Oh god.
Em Schulz: Like, like a horror movie.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like the car stops working.
Christine Schiefer: Keep the car running.
Em Schulz: "A couple of years back, they installed a bunch of new security cameras and they kept going off in the south bedroom one evening. Tulsa police were called that came out with trained police dogs where they tried to go up the stairs, but the dogs absolutely refused to go up."
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: "They started whimpering and wouldn't budge, they ran out of the house, and when the police went up there themselves, not a living soul, was there."
Christine Schiefer: Dun, dun, dun.
Em Schulz: Um. Although they have some teams investigate the building, uh the museum does not actually have any ghost tours that I know of, but the property, fun fact, is currently ran by the University of Tulsa.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And that's the Gilcrease House, that was my lightning round, so you could get out on time.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry no I'm. Sorry to rush to rush everything.
Em Schulz: No, you're good. I just tried to get through it so you wouldn't feel you know rushed.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, I, I love it, thank you. And I'm excited because um I'm also... Well, first of all, my story also is partially in Tulsa, but um you probably don't remember that, 'cause now that we are doing part two, it was two episodes ago that... Two recording sessions ago, 'cause we've switched them around, so I'm gonna say part two of the story of Suzanne Sevakis, and I'm curious, Em, do you remember much of anything at all from that...
Em Schulz: I remember the girl. So that she goes missing with her kid, or the kid goes missing, hang on, the kid gets taken out of school by the guy...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: With a gun?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: The... They find out later that the kid is missing, they're trying to find the kid's mom, but then at some point, we find out that she's... I don't know the middle part, but I do know that they end up... Someone finds her face on the news when people are looking for her or trying to learn about her, and they find out that that was a completely different name that people remember her going by, and it was actually... She was this, this... They talked to her best friend... Her best, her childhood best friend, the best friend says, "Oh yeah. Uh. She was like... I witnessed her being fully sexually assaulted by her father," and then we find out later that the guy who can not the baby, who kidnap her baby, who claimed to be the father of that baby was actually the father of her and the baby.
Christine Schiefer: Was not her husband it was her father. Um.
Em Schulz: But I didn't do that concisely at all, if you need to repeat it for other people to make it cleaner...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just glad I wanted to know what you know so that like I can work with what you've got. So that's exactly it. So 1994, 51-year-old Clarence Hughes, kidnaps son, 6-year-old Michael Anthony Hughes at Indian Meridian Elementary School in Choctaw, Oklahoma. So like I said, we're in Oklahoma today um and he...
Em Schulz: Which is not far from you. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's next door, and uh he left the school principal handcuffed to a tree, the FBI got involved and they learned that Michael had recently been removed uh from Clarence's home... Well, no, sorry, he had been recently removed, he has removed four years ago, when, when Michael's mother died, um who was Clarence's wife, Tonya Hughes, and she was uh involved in a car accident, hit by a car and had been killed, and when uh friends told authorities like, "Hey, we, we don't think Clarence makes a good dad for this little two-year-old boy," he was placed in the care of foster parents, Ernest and Merle Bean, and they had been um raising him for four years now, they were going through the adoption process as he was abducted uh from his elementary school. And it had also been determined shortly before that abduction that uh Clarence was not Michael's biological father, and that is why um his parental rights were permanently revoked, and so Michael, although he was thriving in the new home with the Beans, um they were on high alert because Clarence was furious about losing...
Christine Schiefer: Custody of his son, shortly there after Clarence drove to the elementary school, abducted him and the principal, FBI Special Agent Joe Fitzpatrick took the case. Recognized Michael probably had not very long, um because behavioral science experts predicted that Clarence would get tired of Michael and kill him within a few days. And Clarence, once they dug into him, was identified as one of just many aliases belonging to the same man whose birth name is Franklin Delano Floyd. And meanwhile, back in Georgia, you know they're posting all these news reports about Michael being missing, um and they're they're looking for him, and they're sharing photos of his mother who was killed four years ago, and so back in Georgia, Tonya's high school best friend, Jenny, like you mentioned, recognized her called authorities said, "I don't know who Tonya is. That's my friend Sharon from high school." So they show Jenny picture of Sharon and her husband, and Jenny said, "That's not Sharon's husband, that's her dad." Uh. And she had, like you mentioned, witnessed him sexually assault his own daughter during a sleep over in high school, which had scared her for life. And she knew he was a very bad man, but she had no idea what had happened to him after they left town.
Christine Schiefer: Um. They skip town when Sharon got pregnant by her boyfriend in high school, and I wasn't able to go to Georgia Tech where she had gotten a full scholarship, a very tragic story, um but now we pick back up and investigators now know that Tonya is actually Sharon or at least that's her, the name that she went by before Tonya, so they follow her trail and they find out that she... Before going to, Oklahoma, she'd actually been in Tampa, Florida, and she had lived there with Franklin um slash Clarence uh sometime after her high school graduation, and he had taken her there and had basically forced her into dancing at a club called a Mons Venus, um this was a hugely popular club. Sharon's friend and fellow dancer, whose name is Heather Lane, recalled in an interview that this club was known for having beautiful girls, she said, "We didn't just wear lingerie, we were amazing French lingerie, we were the best of everything, this was like a high class establishment." Um. This is what...
Em Schulz: Classy, classy. Classy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, this is where wealthy people came to uh watch the dancers, and when Sharon first started working at Mons Venus, the other dancers basically described her as looking like a little kid, they were like, "She looks so young." You know she just graduated high school. Uh. Heather described her as looking like a living baby doll, like she was just so young and innocent. And she befriended Sharon and tried to you know guide her, show her the ropes, and on her first day, on her first night, rather, Heather said, "Okay, Sharon, I'm gonna kind of bring you in um EASY. I'm going to bring you in on a private party at the club, it's like very beginner level and it has a big payout, essentially, you're required to dance on the stage, but this package didn't include any touching. Right, so no lap dances." So that she was like, "This is an easy entry point. Like you can just dance, there's no discomfort of like unwanted touching and that kind of thing... No, lap dances."
Em Schulz: Like a, like a light start.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, like an easy... Yeah, exactly. An easy entry point. Um. And at the end of the night, the idea is both dancers could walk away with 500 to 1000 bucks, which today is about 1200 to 1500.
Em Schulz: Oh dang.
Christine Schiefer: And so they brought Sharon in on that, um but that night, Heather was like "Where did Sharon go" and the club owners approached uh Heather and said, "We kicked Sharon out because she had been standing outside of the bathroom offering men sex acts for $50."
Em Schulz: Oh shit, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they were like, "We're not that kind of club and we don't know what her deal is, but... "
Em Schulz: You could do, you could get so much more money for so much less activity. Like I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that was, that was the idea. So when they questioned her, she told the managers, her father made her do it, and was asking her to get as much you know cash as possible from her time there, and that's when Heather realized "Oh, great. So Sharon is literally being trafficked by her father." Um she also quickly realized that Sharon was pregnant because it became impossible for Sharon to conceal, and this was Sharon second pregnancy because if you'll recall in high school, she had gotten pregnant by her boyfriend and uh her dad cancelled her plans to go to uh Georgia Tech, and so instead, they were allegedly going to Arizona to give the child up for adoption, but instead they ended up in Tampa. Um and to be honest, they didn't know what happened to the first child, but now she's pregnant with her second and this would become Michael who later on in the story, we're looking for.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So she's pregnant with Michael. Um. Michael became Sharon's whole world. She absolutely adored him. Uh. Sharon lived in a mobile home community with Franklin, her father slash whatever he is, where they had a neighbor named Michelle Couples, and she was 15 years old, and she often baby-sat Michael for the family. So Michelle would often see Sharon bring over a friend from the club and this friend was Cheryl Commesso.
Christine Schiefer: Now, Cheryl became kind of, I don't even know the best word, word to use, but she became basically completely wrapped up in this whole Franklin bullshit.
Em Schulz: Thing. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So Michelle later described often seeing Cheryl drive by on her way to visit Sharon and Franklin. And Michelle said, Cheryl made a huge impression on her. She was so beautiful, very stylish, was always made up with beautiful hair and clothing, makeup, and nails. And Michelle always felt like as kind of a dorky 15-year-old. She just felt like so special when, umm, when Cheryl passed by and said hi to her and gave her attention. Umm, and so she, she made like quite a, an impression on young Michelle, but Heather at the club, who was the one who kind of took, umm, Sharon under her wing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Felt like Cheryl was messing with a dangerous game because Heather already knows, like, Sharon's dad is trouble and now.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Something's up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so now Cheryl is going to like, hang out with them and she's like, "this is not a good idea. These people are messy and scary." Something bad's gonna happen. And she basically thought Cheryl was too naive to be dealing with these people.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: All the dancers knew Sharon's father was scary and unsafe, but Cheryl just couldn't get away from him for some reason. They couldn't figure out why. Umm, I think it was basically boiled down to the fact that she was somewhat naive and he kept telling her, and he was just so good at using people's vulnerabilities. So he often told her he had connections with Playboy, he was going to make her a star. You know, that age old bullshit.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And she just got really roped into it. Umm, one day, 15-year-old Michelle, the babysitter from next door was hanging out with... At Franklin's trailer watching wrestling on TV.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he said, oh, I wanna record this. So he put a VHS tape in. But.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the tape started playing and Michelle briefly saw a video of Sharon, so Franklin's daughter.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And Cheryl, Sharon's friend from the club dancing topless together on a beach.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And she was really taken aback because like, why would a father have a taped video of his daughter doing that? You know? And.
Em Schulz: Like, was it to like gauge whether or not she was like, not offended by it, or like into it or something?
Christine Schiefer: It was, no, it was an accident. He told her never repeat what you just saw.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh. Oh, oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: It was a blank tape that he thought was blank.
Em Schulz: I thought he was like saying, "oh, I'm gonna record this just to give a reason to put the video in and then make people watch it."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. This was meant to be a secret.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so he told her, uh, you know, don't ever, you, you have to promise you'll never tell anyone what you just saw. And so for years, she kept that to herself. So one night at Mons Venus, the club Heather had to intervene because Franklin and Cheryl were having a huge disagreement out in the parking lot of the club. And the argument became violent. Uh, Heather tried to intervene, Franklin hit the gas and did that thing where he pretended he was gonna hit her. But then like braked right at the last second.
Em Schulz: Cute.
Christine Schiefer: Just, yeah. Really fucked up. And she knew Franklin was physically abusing, not only Sharon, but also Cheryl now, because they were both coming to work covered in bruises, they were always spending time together. And she just, Heather knew, Heather knew. She said, "we did" as in herself and the other dancers "did everything we could to try to create separation between Cheryl and Franklin. But Cheryl just couldn't seem to break away from him. One day she showed up to work with strangulation bruises on her neck, and the other dancers basically just felt in their bones, like, if this keeps, keeps up, he's going to kill her."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But nothing they said could get her kind of out of that relationship. So after Heather made him drive away after that fight, you know, people reported hearing him threaten to kill Cheryl. Like it was just a very volatile, violent fight. Heather made him leave the property and she walked Cheryl back to her car and told Cheryl, "I cannot protect you from them. You need to stay away from them." Cheryl kind of said, "okay, yeah, sure, I understand." And left. And Heather assumed she was heading home to her dad's house, but that would be the last time Cheryl was ever seen alive again.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Did Cheryl ever, I mean, I don't, I feel like you would've probably just covered it, but did she ever say anything other than like, "oh, ha ha ha, he's so silly." Like, like the, or is that Sha... Sharon?
Christine Schiefer: Sharon is his daughter.
Em Schulz: Is the daughter. Okay. 'cause.
Christine Schiefer: Cheryl is the friend from work who keeps getting involved.
Em Schulz: Gotcha. So is Cheryl. Okay. So kind of same question then is, did Cheryl ever say anything that made it seem like she was aware at all? Or did she really just seem so gullible and naive and like, not suspicious of any of this?
Christine Schiefer: You know, I, I mean, I'm assuming she knew at the very least, like he's a not a good guy, but I, I doubt she really thought he was going to kill her, you know.
Em Schulz: Like hurt her. Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because it seems like the classic abusive relationship of like, oh, no, deep down he's like, really fine. And, you know, I think it was one of those situations where there, it just built up and built up and she didn't see how to... How toxic it was from the inside maybe.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And everyone else saw the warning signs.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she just didn't listen. You know? Umm, so it's, it's hard to say. And I, I feel like the only, we only have a few people's accounts, and this is so many long, many decades ago that it's hard to to say.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but it seems like she just got mixed in with the wrong guy and he was just so, you know, icky. He was able to worm his way into her whole life and basically take it over. And so Cheryl was never seen again. Umm, meanwhile, Franklin, Sharon and Michael skipped town without a word and never came back to work. So shortly afterwards, surprise, surprise, Cheryl Commesso was reported missing. And, uh, oddly not really at all, Franklin's and Sharon's trailer burnt to the ground. How mysterious.
Em Schulz: How not at all kind of expected. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right What a surprise. Umm, one neighbor even said they saw a stranger smoking a cigarette, and right before the trailer exploded in flames, basically the idea was the rumors were it was most likely arson. Umm, and that they had paid someone to, or that Franklin had paid someone to burn down the home in case uh...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, at first they thought, well, maybe it's insurance fraud. Obviously, looking back, we now know the motivation was probably to hide evidence.
Em Schulz: Right. Totally.
Christine Schiefer: So investigators now in, you know, the future as they're piecing this all together, they know where the story is headed, and that's that Sharon, Franklin and Michael relocated to Tulsa, Oklahoma, Sharon became a dancer at Passions. And along the way, they had picked up these new names that they had gotten from, umm, like gravestones.
Em Schulz: Right right.
Christine Schiefer: And had taken those. So she became Tonya, he became Clarence, and they created this whole new life story about themselves. And so in Tampa, Franklin was Sharon's father in Tulsa he had now become Tonya's husband.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he was Clarence.
Em Schulz: Yes, totally.
Christine Schiefer: So investigators were horrified, obviously, that Franklin had abused his daughter, his own daughter, for so so long, like her whole entire life. And Joe, the FBI agent, found it really difficult to be piecing this together and thinking about Sharon's life, that she had been trapped in such a dark situation for so long and, and then ended up being killed. And...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Essentially never got out of it. And he couldn't even imagine what it must have been like to live her entire life under Franklin's control. So as he's piecing together her backstory, Franklin's backstory, something kind of nags at him, and he is going through the timelines and he realizes, based on what we know of Sharon's age and the years that Franklin spent in prison, there is no way Franklin could possibly be Sharon's biological father.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So a new thought occurred to Joe. Franklin had served time before for abducting a child. He may have abducted Sharon as a child as well, and gotten away with it.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Okay. I mean, yikes. But Like.
Christine Schiefer: Another plot twist.
Em Schulz: Another plot twist. But honestly, like if there's any silver lining, at least there's not like a biological incest thing going on now. I guess it's still.
Christine Schiefer: I guess, but being like.
Em Schulz: I don't know. It's.
Christine Schiefer: A... It's still a father figure, right? So it's like, as a child.
Em Schulz: It's still mentally incest.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. It's a, it's still incest, I think, because if it's your father, even if he abducted you and is saying he's your father.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I think it's still.
Em Schulz: Well, I think my question before... 'cause my thought behind that is like, I'm assuming she knows that he's not her father, or was it when she was so young that she thinks it's her dad or?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, that's a good question. I don't think she really knows the whole or knew the whole truth. I'm not really sure.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I I am not really sure. She was quite young.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She was quite young when she was abduct... Abducted.
Em Schulz: Sure. Incest is incest is incest.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I didn't know if like, she knew the whole time and like, thought he was like a, you know, I don't know if she saw him as a dad or not. That's why I said that, but yeah, either way. Still bad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Still pot twist.
Christine Schiefer: Really bad. Umm, so investigators knew, obviously with Michael being missing that this was very time sensitive and they desperately needed to figure out where Franklin had been, where he had gone. And having been a fugitive for 17 years and being on the run for that much time, investigators were like, okay. What we do know about criminals is that they will do, they will repeat patterns.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like they'll do what they've done because it's worked for them before. So they had a list of his past aliases and they basically put out like, I don't know if it's called an all points bulletin, but like basically put out a call for anybody, basically like a ding on any of these names that he used to use and, umm, in any of the towns or areas where he used to live. So thankfully, they did one day receive notice, there was a hit on the name Warren Marshall. And apparently Franklin had renewed his driver's license by mail in Louisville, Kentucky. And so when that happened, they got the ding, they organized an undercover operation in which a detective would pose as the delivery driver with the mail, with the ID.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So that he would, you know, come out and.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Basically say, yes, that's me. And then like.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Confirm his ID. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Correct. And then they could arrest him. And so that day arrived November, 1994 with everyone in position. The covert detective knocked on the door, he accepted the mail, and they move in, they arrest him, they immediately search his home, but there is no sign of Michael, of little Michael. They questioned the neighbors and they said, "yeah, we've seen him around, but we have not seen a child anywhere." And now they're thinking, oh no, that, that's not a good sign. So they found a bus ticket, they found a bus reservation. He had arrived in Louisville by bus, and unfortunately there was only one ticket for one adult on that reservation.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So he had not brought Michael with him.
Em Schulz: Yikes. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So investigators feared the worst, but when they asked him, Franklin said, "I would never hurt him. He's my son." And when they escorted him out, uh, after his capture, he said, "he's my son and I love him very much. I hope they find him." Which is like.
Em Schulz: What? That's very, umm.
Christine Schiefer: You hit, you.
Em Schulz: Shannan, uh, the guy that he did the interviews.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, yes. Wow. That wow. Yes. Uh.
Em Schulz: Like, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Wa... Chris Watts, I think his name is yeah.
Em Schulz: Chris Watts the way that, like in interviews everyone was like, how is he, this is not a normal response.
Christine Schiefer: Like talking to reporters and being like, oh man. Yeah. And so he basically told reporters like, "I love him. I hope they find him." And it's like, you actively took him by gunpoint.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean, you hope they find him. Tell us where he is. It just so batshit to me.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so eventually Franklin told investigators an optimistic version of the story that they wanted to believe, but kind of couldn't quite believe. Umm, according to him, he'd left Michael with a very kind wealthy family who wanted a son to raise as their own, but nobody really well.
Em Schulz: Oh, gen... Generous.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, that's so thoughtful of you to take him by gunpoint and then give him away to a wealthy family. Like yeah, right. You know.
Em Schulz: After like duct taping the principle to a tree or some shit like that. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Bullshit. Yeah. Bullshit. So of course no one's buying it. And Merle and Ernest Bean were like, we, they went on tv. They made public appeals to find Michael. They had been so close to completing his adoption when he was abducted. It was like very, very bitter for them. It, in fact, they did not, umm, foster another child for a long time after that because they really struggled with his loss.
Em Schulz: Oh. And they had, they had a, they had fostered like 80 kids or some shit.
Christine Schiefer: 80 kids. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Over their lifetime. I think that was, that came out a year or two ago. So they've definitely went back to fostering, but at the time it was really, really hard. Umm, they said all the kids counted him as a brother, you know, and so it was very heartbreaking. But despite all the public pleas, there was no word of where Michael could be. And the only person who knew exactly where Michael was, uh, refused to speak. And.
Em Schulz: Was the guy saying, I hope you find him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Ex... I mean Exactly. Exactly. It's infuriating. So investigators were convinced at this point, unfortunately, that Franklin had murdered both Michael and Sharon, but they had no evidence for Sharon's case and they couldn't even prove Michael was dead. So instead all they could do is charge him with the kidnapping of Michael and principal James Davis kidnapping using a firearm, carjacking and carjacking using a firearm. Because the truck that he had taken was actually the principal's truck, uh.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then he had taken that with him and left the principal handcuffed to a tree. So while they are building this case against Franklin, they go tracking down that truck and wouldn't, you know it, they find it, uh, they find it...
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: At a mechanic in Kansas. And the mechanic said, "Hey, you might wanna take a look at what I found, uh, hidden taped to the gas tank.' And.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They said, "we probably don't wanna see it, but show us anyway." And.
Em Schulz: That's what we would say for sure.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I would say.
Em Schulz: Can you just tell me what you found?
Christine Schiefer: Can you just hint at it? I don't really wanna know, but Yeah. Uh, precisely. Your instinct is correct because tape to the gas tank was an envelope. Uh, inside there was child sexual abuse material featuring Sharon as a small child.
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, as well as another young woman who had been beaten so badly that investigators looked at the photos and said "he killed this woman." Like she's, she's so on the brink of like, she's been beaten so badly in these photos. There's no way they, they were.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: They were pretty confident he had killed this person.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: They had no idea who she was. This other woman, they knew Sharon. But, umm, they sent the, the photos of the other woman to agencies throughout the country hoping like maybe somebody would recognize her. And in the meantime, they went forward with the kidnapping case. And that went to trial. So in court we talked about Jenny, who was the one who said, who kind of cracked the case and said, "that's, that's not Tonya. That's Sharon. And that's not her husband, that's her dad." So she actually testified in court and she said it was absolutely terrifying. And remember, like her last real interaction with him was that horrible scarring life-changing moment when she witnessed him at a sleepover, raping his own daughter in front of her by gunpoint. I mean.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: That was, that was her experience with him. So, you know, she's now on the stand and she said it was absolutely terrifying. But afterward, she basically described it as a feeling of, I got you fucker.
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, yes, yes. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So Franklin, of course, being one of these fucking bastards we talk about on the podcast, decided he wanted to defend himself in court. 'cause they always do.
Em Schulz: Oh, I love it. [laughter] I love it. Please.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the only good thing that ever happens in these, because you're like, "okay, well then I know you go to prison 'cause you're too stupid to defend yourself. You just think you're so smart."
Em Schulz: Like you don't, you don't even you don't even have to tell me the rest of the story. I already know how it goes.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like all good.
Em Schulz: Well, I feel like every judge, I feel like this. I mean, if you're a judge out there and you've for some fucking reason, listen to this show. Can you tell me if like, when people say they're going to defend themselves, what the percentage is of people who are guilty that do that? 'cause I feel like it's nearly 100.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if we could look that up. Yeah. I feel like I, I feel like that can't be good. I mean.
Em Schulz: And and how many of them at least are narcissists? It's gotta be 90%.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I mean especially, well, especially in a case like this. I mean, it's one thing to defend yourself with a parking violation.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: But like to defend yourself like over the murder of multiple people and kidnapping of a child. Like good luck to you my friend.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But You know.
Em Schulz: I feel like if a judge sees a man go, I'm going to defend myself. I feel like they respond exactly how we do of like, great. Come on down, [laughter] come on down.
Christine Schiefer: Easy. We'll be done by lunch. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and I also, umm, it's also extra scary though if you think about it. 'cause like, I mean I've definitely seen this on like SVU and stuff, but, and Criminal minds. But because he wanted to defend himself, he's the now the one who's, umm, cross-examining Jenny.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yep.
Christine Schiefer: So like that part is scary because now she has to go face to face with him and he's, you know, challenging her.
Em Schulz: Well, so I think actually Marshka talked about this in one of the episodes, [laughter], where, umm, I, I think that's where I'm getting this information from. But a lot of times I think people will, umm, decide that they're going to defend themselves in court because they know they're going to jail, but it's their one last way of like harassing a person.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, ew.
Em Schulz: It's like a, I'll take the fall and I know I'm probably gonna go to jail because there's no way I could do this as good as a lawyer, but I get to.
Christine Schiefer: I get a platform.
Em Schulz: Degrade you in front of everybody one more time.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't think that he really was concerned about her so much because he didn't even, I don't think remember her, like she remembered him because she was witness to that sleepover. But I don't...
Em Schulz: So in this case, he's just cocky. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's just, he just thought he could do this himself. And when he was cross-examining her, he said, "oh, you only think I'm a bad person because the FBI has already informed your opinion of me." And Jenny goes, "umm, no, I actually based my opinion of you a long time ago when I saw you rape my best friend and your daughter."
Em Schulz: Bam! That's right. You go girl.
Christine Schiefer: And she said to him, outraged, "you were her daddy. You were her father." And she said after that, basically Franklin's defense team just looked completely defeated. Like, they were like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well we've we're lost. We lost. So of course the court found Franklin Floyd guilty. He was sentenced to 52 years in prison with no chance of parole. Umm, but investigators were still pretty frustrated that they couldn't charge him for the murders. They believed he had committed, umm, but they were at least glad that he was gonna be behind bars.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but of course there were still so many questions like, where's Michael? And who is this mystery woman in the photos? So March 29th, 1995, this case takes a whole nother turn when a highway crew discovers skeletal remains in Florida alongside a breast implant and abandoned clothes and jewelry.
Em Schulz: This Cheryl?
Christine Schiefer: It's Cheryl. She has been shot in the head, and she was listed as a Jane Doe until a year later when detectives matched the shirt found with the remains, the skeletal remains to the photo that was inside the gas tank taped to the gas tank of the badly beaten woman in, in the truck. So essentially they now know they're piecing this all together. They're saying, okay, dental records confirm it. The woman in the photo is Cheryl Commesso. Franklin clearly has murdered her and dumped her body and was sexually abusing her as well as Sharon. And it looks like Franklin and Sharon, timeline wise had fled town after the murder years earlier, and Franklin changed their names and married Sharon as a cover to like change their identities.
Em Schulz: Dang.
Christine Schiefer: So detectives searching for Cheryl might suspect Franklin. This was at least his plan. But now they were searching for, they were searching for a father and his daughter and grandson, not a married couple, and their child, which is why he like twisted the plot and said, "oh no, like this is my wife," you know?
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And that's why everything got so convoluted. And of course the idea is he probably burned down the trailer to destroy evidence. All this is kind of coming together. Of course, they end up talking to Michelle Couples, the babysitter from next door. She looks at the photos and says, "oh yeah, that's Cheryl, and also that's Franklin's pullout couch that she's sitting on. Like, that's, that's his couch from his trailer." So...
Em Schulz: Oh, ding, ding, ding.
Christine Schiefer: She knows full well exactly where the photos were taken. And with that, Franklin was charged with Cheryl's murder, thank God found guilty, and he was sentenced to death in 2002.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so at least, you know, Cheryl's family had closure, umm, and they were at least able to, you know, name her, give her a name instead of just a Jane Doe. But of course, Detective Joe is not finished yet because he's looking for Michael. And they also...
Em Schulz: Poor Detective Joe.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Poor Detective Joe is like, "I'm so overwhelmed. He's looking for Michael," which is like very time sensitive, even though he's pretty sure he is probably been killed. But, you know, he wants to find him alive, hopefully. But also he is like, who is Sharon? Was she really abducted? Like, who, where did she come from? Where's her family? And so in 2002, there was this author named Matt Birbeck, and he saw a photo of Sharon as a child and learned about her story and felt very compelled to write about it. So he tried his best to solve the case, and he interviewed Franklin in prison.
Christine Schiefer: But wouldn't, you know it, Franklin refused to admit anything factual. And instead he told Michael his own childhood story, which, you know, was pretty traumatic. Uh, he was raised in a children's home, was terribly abused. And when asked about Sharon, all he would say is "she loved me no matter what." And that's the only information he would give. So Matt published this book about Sharon, and fortunately it had like an ambiguous ending that failed to name her true identity. But with the release of the book, he hoped like, maybe this will stir up some interest.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And someone will come forward.
Em Schulz: Some chatter.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, some chatter, and maybe we will get a lead. And amazingly they did, because in 2005, only a year after the book's release, Matt received an email that read. Would the DNA of Sharon's daughter help you?
Em Schulz: Oh. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It turns out a young woman named Megan, who was Sharon's third child who had been put up for adoption, had been with her family. They, all they knew is that her birth mother had died in a car accident. They didn't know anything more than that.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: But when Megan was a junior in high school, her aunt read Matt's book and said, "this is very weird. This sounds a lot like what's happening. You know, this, this sounds weirdly familiar." So they, she reached out and said, "I Sharon's my mother." So they were able to at least piece that together. Meanwhile, two FBI agents are on the case trying to find Michael. And in 2001, the FBI and the Center for Missing and Exploited Children reopened the case, hoping to find any thread of where Michael might be. But in 2014, Franklin finally admitted that he killed Michael the same day he abducted him, and he wouldn't give any more information. He did say where he buried Michael, but days of excavation never recovered any remains. And so to this day, his remains have never been found, which is just horrible. I mean, this little 6-year-old boy. So FBI agents continued questioning Franklin, they wanna know the truth about Sharon. And it seems like since he finally relented and admitted that he killed Michael, maybe he'll finally admit...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: That he abducted Sharon. And he does. I, it's, it's like these narcissists love to talk about themselves. They just can't help it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Did he, like, did he let it sli... Like did he just admit it or?
Christine Schiefer: I think he's probably just bored, like in prison. And he is like, I get attention when I tell stories, you know? And so that's my guess. I mean, I don't really know that, but that's my guess because he find...
Em Schulz: I know if it was the, the, the cockiness thing where he thought he could say more than he really should, and then someone actually caught him on it, or...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, he's on death row already, so I don't think he has anything...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: To lose, you know? So I think finally he's like, "all right, if this gets me like press and, you know, into a book and yada yada, I'll tell you what happened." And he did. He said he used to work as a bus driver in North Carolina where he met a woman named Sandy, who had recently lost her three children to the state. And this actually turned out to be true. They found her, her name was Sandra Sandy Sevakis. She had married her husband, Clifford Sevakis right outta high school. And they had, uh, a daughter named Suzanne Sevakis, who ended up being Sharon while Clifford was deployed as a soldier in Vietnam, they divorced and Sandy had two more daughters, Allison and Amy, but she was now a single mother. She had all three girls in a mobile home community and a tornado came through and flattened their neighborhood and tipped their home over onto its side.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: And because of this, Sandy began suffering severe PTSD and she knew she needed help. She was having these flashbacks, she would sit in the corner of the room, unable to move while her daughters tried to engage with her, talk to her. And one day she was so desperate for help, she went to social services expecting like maybe they could give her some counseling or some childcare assistance. Instead, they took custody of all three children and they told her, honey, go to church. You'll feel better.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." What? Oh, that was.
Christine Schiefer: So.
Em Schulz: That really, that was better, "better" than any plot twist so far in this story. That was, that's so messed up.
Christine Schiefer: So get this.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: She, she goes to church and this man comes forward and says, "Hey, I can help you. My name is Franklin Floyd."
Em Schulz: Oh fuck.
Christine Schiefer: Meets him at church. I mean, it's just like, of all things, well, first of all, social services contacted Sandy's ex-husband, Clifford, umm, and the father of hi of her eldest daughter Suzanne. And they said, "Hey, you know, you can have Suzanne, however, we're not separating Suzanne from Allison and Amy because they're so close. So either you could accept custody of all three girls or relinquish parental rights to Suzanne." And he was only 22 years old. He just got home from Vietnam, was shell shocked, traumatized. He was struggling to adjust to life back in the States. He was unemployed, he was living with his parents. He was like, "I can't raise three young children." So he made the really painful decision to relinquish custody of Suzanne so she could be placed alongside her sisters in an adoptive family.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Meanwhile, Sandy took the social worker's advice. She went to church, and while she was crying in a pew, a man named Franklin Floyd approached her, asked her what was wrong and told her he could help her. So he married her and they got their daughters back from social services. But Sandy quickly realized this was not a good Samaritan. He actually was terrorizing the family, her and her daughters. He was threatening them with knives. He was physically abusing them. One day she was out buying diapers and she was arrested for a bad check and was sentenced to 30 days in jail. And by the time she was released, she got home and all three of her daughters and for Franklin were gone.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So she went to the police, but when they found out Sandy and Franklin were married, they said, "it's a domestic issue. We can't help you. You have to figure it out on your own," unfortunately...
Em Schulz: What is going on with the, with the resources in this town. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Well. No comment. Umm...
Em Schulz: No comment. That's okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Franklin was long gone. He had actually dropped Amy and Allison off at an orphanage and left town with Suzanne, whom he renamed Sharon. And finally Sharon Marshall slash Tonya Hughes had her birth name back. She was Suzanne Sevakis, and both her parents were still alive.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So in 2014, '15, '16, they're now realizing what has happened to their daughter. Uh, must just be so tragic.
Em Schulz: I can't, I can't even imagine.
Christine Schiefer: So all the pieces are now together. Umm, it's kind of ends up, you know, with a beautiful, heartwarming story. Um, Matt and Suzanne's daughter, Megan, who's, uh, Sharon's birth daughter, worked together to erect a new gravestone for Suzanne, replacing the one that her friends had originally written to just say Tonya.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And Megan was just so delighted to meet people who had known Suzanne in life, and she was able to learn what a bright, wonderful and loving person her birth mother had been. Umm, Jenny, Suzanne's high school best friend was happy to finally learn the truth about Suzanne's life and was able to share stories about her as a teenager and what a wonderful friend she had been. And Megan said in an interview, "she was the definition of a friend to everyone, the sound voice and the support system for people, which is absolutely insane because she had none of that at home and she did it all with such poise."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So the new headstone was erected June third, 2017, with the epitaph reading "devoted mother and friend." And, I know it gives me goose, goosecam. They held a memorial service in her honor, and Suzanne's friends, her parents and her daughter Megan, were all in attendance. Her father, Clifford said he took comfort in learning how much Suzanne meant to people and found it amazing that despite her circumstances, she seemed to have made such a, you know, the most out of her life and such good relationships with people, even though she had such a bad home life.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Despite it all.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, despite it all. And he was now able to connect with Megan, his granddaughter, which was really cool.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's great. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so he said, "I can't talk to Suzanne, but I can talk to Megan and that'll do" so. Oh, makes me wanna cry. Umm, Megan has her own, okay, now I'm gonna cry. Megan has her own son now, whom she named Michael after the older brother she never met. And she said "Michael didn't get to live out his name and I wanted that name to keep going." So piece of shit, Franklin Floyd died in prison of natural causes age 79 in January, 2023. And that is the story, the two part story of Suzanne Sevakis. Woo. What a doozy.
Em Schulz: Also, he died last year of natural causes, even though he was on death row.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Most people don't get, I mean, death row usually takes like decades.
Em Schulz: A long time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you so much. I mean...
Em Schulz: Well done.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Thank you to, uh, Saoirse for helping piece this together. Thank you for, to the documentary The Girl in the Picture, which is so well done. And features Megan and a lot of other pe... And Jenny and, uh, the babysitter. So if you wanna watch all of them kind of tell their own stories, that's a really cool documentary to watch. It's on Netflix.
Em Schulz: Wow. Well, and Christine, we did it on time.
Christine Schiefer: I know now I gotta run to soccer practice, but uh, next time we record, we will be recording in After Hours After Dark. And I'll may either be in here or I'll have better internet. We'll find out.
Em Schulz: We'll find... We'll all find out together. If you look like a professor next week or if you look like another, a little gremlin back in your old troll hole.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I could do a show and tell. There's all sorts of weird shit in here.
Em Schulz: That'll be the, if you come back next time and you're in there, then the after hours could be, or the After Dark could be the show and tell of It.
Christine Schiefer: I'll just like grab random stuff off the shelves and see what's inside. It could be a yearbook, it could be some...
Em Schulz: It could be that doll again.
Christine Schiefer: Could be that doll.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She seems to be everywhere. Umm, so yeah. Anyway, thanks for listening everyone.
Em Schulz: Oh, I know you have to run. But thank you everybody. Please go get our book, buy tickets for our live show, join us on Patreon, and...
Christine Schiefer: This is the shortest episode ever. That's...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
