[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Folks, we weren't even gonna talk about it, but we've been having some lag issues on our recording software. We have tried basically everything. I promise we recognize it, and we're trying to fix it, and I apologize if it has turned you off of some of the episodes. Um, I don't know what's going on. We have like a whole team trying to figure it out, and we're switching software, it's a whole thing. Um...
Em Schulz: We thought for a second... I mean, it's probably still... It's definitely still my Wi-Fi over here that's hurting the issue, but I got like a whole new laptop to fix one problem, and now Allison's back in town, so now we're both using the Wi-Fi. It's so obnoxious. So I think this might be the last time that I record in the troll hole, and we're officially just gonna get out of here 'cause it's just not helpful. It's just not... Like this...
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna hit the streets.
Em Schulz: Abort mission, hit the red button. Um, so everyone...
Christine Schiefer: It's gotten out of hand.
Em Schulz: I hope you enjoyed the troll hole. Um, it's...
Christine Schiefer: We did.
Em Schulz: Okay. I, I mean, I am currently a little resentful of her, but uh, other than that, I just want everyone to enjoy our fucking show, and if the troll hole is making things worse, then we gotta say "Sayonara," so...
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's too bad. But uh, we're trying our best. Um, we are just... You know, it feels like day one of this podcast all over again. Like how does technology... Like how does it not do what we need it to do? You know what I mean? It's like all our tools, they're all at our disposal, and somehow we still can't figure our shit out. So it feels like we haven't evolved all that much since 2017. Oops.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. I, you know, now that I've got... Now that I've got uh, a place to be or somewhere else to go, hopefully, this is the last time you deal with this. I'm... Or this time, you, you shouldn't have to deal with it, but sorry... And for the past few episodes, we know it's been a mess, so yikes.
Christine Schiefer: And if you're listening backwards, we've probably fixed it, so don't skip them, you know. You can still listen to them. Actually, don't listen backwards. That's, that just drives me crazy. But, you know, um, you do you. Anyway, I'm sorry. Em, hi, I've missed you. I'm so glad we're both here. How are you, uh, issues aside, tech issues aside? Why do you drink?
Em Schulz: Oh, tech issues aside? Okay, hmm, why do I drink?
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: You don't have to put them aside. If you wanna keep discussing them, that's fine too.
Em Schulz: I mean, it's still very frustrating, but uh... Hmm. Let me think of another... Another reason that I'm sad is because this is the, now officially, probably the last time people will see the troll hole. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's like totally not gonna be. We're gonna forget 'cause we record... You realize tomorrow, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I know. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, but yeah, I'm, I'm just, uh... I guess I'm overwhelmed with the thought of moving. I'm realizing that I'm not, you know... Well, not realizing, but it's hitting me even harder that I'm not ready to move. I'm... I feel like I'm being forced out of my home, all that kind of stuff.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I felt that for the...
Christine Schiefer: All that kind of stuff? What do you mean?
Em Schulz: Well, 'cause, like, if it weren't for the roaches, we wouldn't be leaving. So I just... I feel like I never...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. They defeated you. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I really... Even when we moved in, I told Allison, I was like, "This is my forever home when I live... As long as I live in LA. I, I love living here. Other than the roaches, this is the perfect setup, it's in a perfect location, we have just enough room for ourselves. We're kind of starting to outgrow it, but the irony is we found a smaller place, so, you know, that doesn't mean anything. But other than...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If it, if it weren't for the roaches, I love living here. I feel super safe. I, you know, I just don't really want to leave, and there's this, like, really gross obvious reason why we have to. So I just don't like the idea of having to uproot. I am very much a creature of habit and I, I hate change, so...
Christine Schiefer: I just... That's always something that strikes me is like a lot of people I know and I'm friends with hate change and I'm the opposite. I'm like, "Change it up." I'm like already [0:03:54.6] ____. We moved in here and I was like, "When should we move next?" And Blaise was like, "Never." And I was like, "Well, let's keep the door open." I don't know. I'm just one of those people that hate things to stay stagnant, so I'm very like, "Let's change shit up all the time, which is... I feel like it's very Gemini, but most of the Geminis I know don't like feel that way, so I don't know.
Em Schulz: My, my mom did a very, very good job of making me love, like, the stability of growing up and living in one home. Like her house is still the same one I've lived in since I was three. So, like, I think, to me... Like even if I'm all over the place and like I'm very chaotic in certain ways, like, home never changes. And so, like, home is where you're never supposed to have to worry about uprooting. And so since I moved here and I... Like when I first moved in here, we didn't have anything. Now I've, I've bought quite a lot of things. Now I'm thinking about all the things I have to, like, literally bring with me and that...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Overwhelms me. It's just like a lot of little stuff. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. And I, I mean, I feel like for me, I moved back home to Cincinnati because I was like, I just know I can't. Like I knew I was gonna come back here eventually, you know, so, like, maybe that's my like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Even though I would switch houses maybe, I would not... Like I don't think I'm gonna leave my hometown. Does that make sense?
Em Schulz: Yeah, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: So I don't know. Maybe in a way, that, that's my, that's my stickler, but...
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's why I'm also... I'm just overwhelmed with all the stuff we have to do before we move in, and things are not gonna be livable, or I guess they'll be technically livable while we move in, but it's just gonna be for the rest of the year, it's just gonna be a big headache of getting things done, so...
Christine Schiefer: At least you have time though. Like you don't have like a week to do it or like a weekend to do it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You know what freaks me out the most though, which was like a... 'Cause I've only ever lived in apartments after leaving my house is that, um, I'm gonna be like on a ground floor without neighbors and like it just... It feels less safe, which is wild 'cause you could see it the other way of like...
Christine Schiefer: You have neighbor... Oh, not, not like neighbors attached to you you mean.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like right now the only safety precaution I have to take is making sure that like our front door is locked and that's it, but like now I'm gonna have all four walls I'm responsible for, and like I just get really freaked out if...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I get that, but like that's what an alarm is for, just saying. You should definitely put that in before you move.
Em Schulz: We... Yeah, we are. I just, uh... It, uh, it's just still freaky that like I'll... Like there could be a sound from any corner and I, I have to make sure I know what it is, that's all. So, um, anyway, just little things like that where I'm getting... It's becoming real, and I am going through the panic phase of it, so...
Christine Schiefer: Well, you seem very calm.
Em Schulz: That's all.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, for what it's worth...
Em Schulz: I'm screaming inside. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Why do you drink this week?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm just drowning. But it's fine. I'll live.
Em Schulz: Oh. Is it a schedule thing?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's a schedule, it's a work, it's a, why did I do this to myself? How do I, um...
Em Schulz: Isn't that fun?
Christine Schiefer: Function? No, it's not. Um, it's terrible. And my hives or my eczema is out of control, and they're thinking it might be psoriasis from my, from my [0:06:57.1] ____ Chron's that's like...
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: Not good. Anyway, it's fine. I just woke up and I was like, I just had like a rash like all up my neck, in my scalp, it's... My ears, uh, were bleeding.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Not the ears.
Christine Schiefer: Like it's just getting out of control. And I...
Em Schulz: Is it just from stress that's causing a flare or something?
Christine Schiefer: I think it's stress. Yeah, I think it's stress. Um...
Em Schulz: What do you...
Christine Schiefer: So it's...
Em Schulz: What do you have... It's just... It's the Beach Too Sandy Tour and the That's Why We Drink Tour and having a baby and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's all the touring, it's the baby, it's like trying to juggle like every recording and then making sure we catch up and stay caught up and making sure the house is... I, I don't know. And then you and I have been trying to get our tour ready for the fall, and so there's all this, and we keep hitting road blocks and... Uh, it's just sort of like, um, chaotic.
Em Schulz: People don't appreciate the behind-the-scenes work of a podcast. There's... I feel like, uh, a lot of people think... And the fact that you do two of them... Again, there's a reason I don't do two of them. I, I...
Christine Schiefer: It's really uh, a wild choice that I made. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Uh, you know what, if anyone can do it, you can do it. But I don't think a lot of people realize it like... I, I think like my grandma probably thinks like, "Oh, all you do is like once a week you have to sit in front of a microphone, just talk to your best friend." And that is the perk of it, but...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I mean, that is like the best...
Em Schulz: There's...
Christine Schiefer: Right. That's like the main part, but then it's like...
Em Schulz: But there's a, there's a lot of stuff that happens when you're not in front of the microphone. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We do that anyway. It's called FaceTiming. But that doesn't pay us anything. [laughter] It doesn't help us anything. Um, but... Okay. So I'm not, I'm not... Also, just to be clear, folks, I'm so happy. I'm not trying to complain. I'm just like, oh my God, how do I even get like... And then I was like, "Oh, my car needs an oil change. Gio needs a haircut 'cause he literally has like his hair matted. I need a haircut. I need to go to uh, a Ob-Gyn, GI, and...
Em Schulz: And you have to take care of G-I-O.
Christine Schiefer: Skin doctor, G-I-O, and then Leona needs to go to the dentist and the doctor. I'm like, how on earth do I schedule all this? Like I don't even have time to record an episode or like be home to take in packages. Like I have to call our neighbors to take in packages 'cause no one's home 'cause we're traveling. I'm like, how do I even have time to take her to the fucking dentist? I don't know. Anyway, so I'm just...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's...
Christine Schiefer: Drowning in life. It's fine. It's mostly my shit. It's not even hers. Like she's fine. I... It's just like, why do I suddenly need 16 doctors? I don't have time to go to the doctor.
Em Schulz: I, uh... You know, now is the, um, right before tour is usually when I do my whole like month of doctor's appointments, and so I... For... I really took in the last few months where after a long time with my, with my own health stuff, I was calling a bunch of doctors, I took a break and now...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that must be nice. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, now I'm re-doing it and I'm just like so overwhelmed, I totally get what you mean about like how, like how is this other stuff that got away from me for so long now like such a priority all at once?
Christine Schiefer: And then they're like, "Oh, we scheduled you for, I don't know, August 48th, uh, 6:22:35 AM." And you're like, "Well, uh, cool, I'm in Minnesota that day. That's the one day that like I'm just not here." And it's like, "Well, then she's not available for two years." And it's like, "Fuck my life. Nothing's just... It is... It's fine. Everything's good." I'm just a little overwhelmed, and it's coming out in the form of like horrible skin hives and rashes which is brand new to me. I've never really had skin issues my whole life, so I'm just like, "Cool, this is fun." Um...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I wanna add also... What was the other thing I was gonna say?
Em Schulz: Oh, there's more. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, there's more. There's always more. [laughter] Come on. Who are we kidding? I'm not gonna complain anymore. That's...
Em Schulz: No, no, no. What's, what's the last thing?
Christine Schiefer: I just don't wanna complain. It's not for people to listen to. I have a call-to-action instead which is, folks, if you are able to, this would really, um, help me tremendously, and you don't have to help me, this is not like, boo-hoo me, this is just, uh, a reminder that we... Em and I are going on tour in the fall, and my brother and I are on tour right now, um, and a lot... Some of the shows have sold out, which is fantastic, uh, but we still have a lot of tickets available. So, you know what, if there's anything anyone can do, why don't you come see us live? That would make me feel a little more...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Everyone make...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know...
Em Schulz: The tours that Christine is on...
Christine Schiefer: Fulfilled? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Make it feel worthwhile that you're going through all this stress now.
Christine Schiefer: But don't do it just 'cause I'm demanding it. Do it only if you wanna come. But it is fun. We have, um... The Beach Too Sandy Tour is going really well, and we read one-star reviews from your specific town, so it's fun even if... Actually, Em, when... We did a show recently, I forget where we were, Seattle, Portland, I don't know... Oh, oh, Charlotte. And we were in Charlotte, and this woman came up to me and she goes, "I brought all my friends. We all listen to And That's Why We Drink. We've never listened to Beach Too Sandy before." And I was like, "Uh, um... " So that was really scary. But they... I think they had a really good time. So, you know, it can be fun. It's not like you need to know the show. Um, but anyway, and then And That's Why We Drink, we have our shows coming up in the fall, and Em and I are working diligently on getting a... We want it to be like... We want every show to be better than the last ones.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, that's what we're trying to do. We're like very... We've become like really, really unhinged about it, like you can see...
Em Schulz: Once you...
Christine Schiefer: The energy is building in me. We haven't even started the actual like grind work, but I think I'm just in the head space of like...
Em Schulz: We can't talk about it yet, but...
Christine Schiefer: Just my eyes twitching, you know.
Em Schulz: We can't talk about it yet, but let's just say our tour alone, Christine has a lot of reasons to be frenetic currently.
Christine Schiefer: Screaming.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: It's all gonna work out. It always works out. It always works out. I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: It just ends up being like, "Oh, we just have to do like 68,000 workarounds," and then the show ends up better than we could have imagined. But it's like, "Cool. Did we have to go up and down 85 mountains in our bare feet uphill both ways to get here?" I guess so. I guess that's our life. Um...
Em Schulz: And I think I know the reason that you're super stressed is because I'm currently doing my portion of the show...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yes.
Em Schulz: And you're just waiting for my portion to be done so you can do your portion of the show and...
Christine Schiefer: Well, and I keep being like, "Can... Should I... Can I help? Is there anything I could do?" And Em's like, "Please back away from me right now. I'm doing my task." And I'm like, "Okay, just let me know, I'm here to help." Like I'm just being...
Em Schulz: But I totally understand like just like, like sitting and waiting and just like waiting to be stressed. Like I totally know that feeling, it's so gross. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's not, it's not great. Yeah. So my hives are not... They're not hives.
Em Schulz: Keep it...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what it is.
Em Schulz: Here's a, here's a good way to look at it. Uh, this is... Well, I don't know, do what you can with this. This is your last week where you don't have any work coming from me because after, after this, after this week, you're gonna... Your part starts, so...
Christine Schiefer: Fantastic.
Em Schulz: I don't know if that made it better, but, you know...
Christine Schiefer: No. It made it worse, made it significantly worse.
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding. No, it will be... No, there will be something to it of like, "Okay, now at least everything's in my purview, so I can at least like mentally figure out where, how, how much my brain's gonna explode."
Em Schulz: Hey, I'm gonna... From... On my end, you're not gonna get any guff. You take as long as you need and do whatever you gotta do.
Christine Schiefer: I appreciate you. And we'll see.
Em Schulz: Uh, I know how long it takes to do your, your share of this, so...
Christine Schiefer: Well, Em has to do also the big, big, big, big part of it. Oh, do we even talk about what we're doing or not really?
Em Schulz: I don't know. Do we?
Christine Schiefer: I think we can, right? Like we're... I mean, 'cause like people know...
Em Schulz: I mean...
Christine Schiefer: The idea of what...
Em Schulz: Let's, let's, let's, um, consult first with our bosses. Okay, hey, so let's just talk about it. Um... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Gio, Gio, I have to talk to you for a minute. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Leona. Um... [laughter] Uh, okay, so obviously everyone knows that we go ghost-hunting. I...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I'm doing all of the footage-watching which means I'm currently...
Christine Schiefer: Like every deranged camera angle of just like a fucking creepy dark wall, Em is just sitting there for hours watching it.
Em Schulz: Which Allison made fun of me recently 'cause I said something like, "I, I don't know how you just stare at a screen all day," but what I meant by it was like... 'Cause she stares at the screen and like clicks around and like, you know, types and...
Christine Schiefer: And does stuff.
Em Schulz: Talks to people, but I'm just like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's really... We did in our... The location I'm looking at, we've got, uh, 15 different camera angles of a 10-hour investigation. So that's 150 hours. Um...
Christine Schiefer: And then there's the audio like...
Em Schulz: And I have to just stare and it's just, it's just completely black and silent, and I have to stare for 150 hours for any sign of any movement or any sound.
Christine Schiefer: And like the problem is you can't zone out.
Em Schulz: Crazy [0:15:09.0] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Like you have to...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: You have pay close attention because...
Em Schulz: You gotta be with it.
Christine Schiefer: You have to catch every little like ghostly thing that might happen. So sometimes Em will send me like a [0:15:18.3] ____ highlight of stuff and I'll be like, "Em, like I think you accidentally sent me just a video of a wall," and Em is like, "No, there's like an apparition," and I'm like, "What are you even seeing?" And I'm like slow-mo-ing and I'm like, "Oh, how the fuck did you even... " You know, so Em's like very, just like in-tune with... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: My eyes, my ears hurt, my head hurts.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Everything hurts.
Em Schulz: I'm... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Everything's in pain.
Em Schulz: But it's, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: And we're just struggling. It's like... And then we have to come up with a whole show too, like we have to find a way not only to just...
Em Schulz: We can't even write the script until we do that.
Christine Schiefer: Until we have all the stuff put together. It's...
Em Schulz: Right. And then half the things that I find don't even work, and so then we have to like go through all the clips and we have to scrap them because some of them just like...
Christine Schiefer: We also have to debunk stuff. Like we have to debunk...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When something's like, "Woah, that's the creepiest sound ever," then we go through like my camera and Eva's camera and we're like, "Oh, Christine was, I don't know, blowing her nose or like, just like, was like whispering... "
Em Schulz: I thought like example this time around, I thought I got like the creepiest scream, and it was actually you opening the bathroom door I got from another angle.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So like...
Christine Schiefer: See? It's like there's just so much annoying... It's like up and down all the time, and then at the end you're like, "Wow, I just wasted... Not wasted, but I spent like weeks of my life, and I have like this two-minute clip to take, to show for," you know.
Em Schulz: And when... And we really do scraps. Like if I find... So far, I think I've found probably 100 clips' worth showing Christine, 30 of them maybe are good, and then half of those will be put into the script. Like so all of it almost feels like I'm watching 150 hours of pitch black for maybe 15 seconds of you to laugh. Please laugh when we get there. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and then I'm like, wow, and now here I am trying to get everyone to come to our shows. Like, "Are you gonna come now?" No, I promise... But this is what, what we're saying, like we're not messing around. Like we take it so seriously, like too seriously maybe, but...
Em Schulz: Too seriously for sure. And also you can't do...
Christine Schiefer: Like people be like, "You can... "
Em Schulz: So then I'm doing that part. Then Christine can't even do her part until I'm done because she goes through all of the actual like highlights, like out of, what... Out of that many hours, you probably get two hours of stuff which... So like I'm going through all this stuff that no one... That's what I'm talking about, like the behind-the-scenes stuff. No one knows like 148 hours happened because two hours gets to Christine, and then by the time Christine and I are done with it, it's down to like a-half-an-hour stuff. It, it dwindles down very quickly, but if Christine can't... She does like all the audio clean-up. We have to... You do like a whole like video for us to walk out to, like it's all these things, and then we have to write a script together. So the part that you're... This is, I guess, what I was trying to say earlier, is that you may be freaked out right now 'cause you can't do anything until I'm done, but then I'm gonna have that same experience where I'm sitting and waiting because I can't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Start writing a script with you until you're done with your part.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: It's just...
Christine Schiefer: It's like you're, you're waiting in anxiety of like, "Okay, like I'm not rushing you at all. I'm not trying to rush you. I'm just sitting in my... Like any moment now, I'll be like... "
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm just spiraling.
Christine Schiefer: "Plopped down on my desk." Yeah. And, uh, and then it's like my turn. You know, it's like a, it's like when you're waiting... Oh my God, it's like a relay race. Not that I've ever done one of those, weirdly.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's just like that. It's like bobbing for apples really. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I just stand there and then I'm like, "Wait," I'm like, "Come on," you know, and then I get the thing, and then I'm like, "Oh, shit, I'm so slow at running," and then I like finally get there.
Em Schulz: It's actually a great analogy.
Christine Schiefer: " [0:18:23.4] ____ here you go." And then it's like now I'm waiting...
Em Schulz: And then you're dead last.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm dead. Yeah. And we're... And we lose. [laughter] And everyone's like, "Why are you doing this? No one asked you to be here." So, anyway, I... Sorry, that was really a crazy way to address this. But, um, yeah, I'm just slightly overwhelmed. And I think every day that I wake up with more rashes, I'm just like, "Calm down. Why don't I calm down?" Like it's not working. So I'm trying to chill.
Em Schulz: You know what's very helpful with um... Shoutout to Jordan, my therapist. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: What she does often with me, this was actually one of the big things that began the help that I had for stage fright, is I always hate it when people were like, "Why don't you just like own the situation, and then like you're kind of in control of it?" And I was like, I'm like, "Shut the fuck up with that." I hate that. Like, like, "Why don't you just accept that you're afraid of being on stage and that'll help you get out there?" What? What does... That sounds like someone who's never been on stage before.
Christine Schiefer: I... Yeah, I did and I am and what? I still feel like shit. Okay.
Em Schulz: So, um, what she has done with me because, again, she's made me do like the whole visualizing something that represents my anxiety, um, and she's been like, "Okay, like we get it. Like you're a 10 out of 10 on the intense scale when it comes to... " This is me talking to my like anxiety guy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh.
Em Schulz: It's like, I'm like, "I get it. You're 10 out of 10. There's nothing I can do about that. Like I am helpless to you. 10 out of 10. You are so scary. How about today, why don't we just like try a 9.8 out of 10?" And like that was really helpful...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Because I get, I think I always just thought like, "How do I make it a zero out of 10?" I never thought about like embracing just...
Christine Schiefer: Incrementally. Oh.
Em Schulz: Going gradually. So maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Just take the edge off.
Em Schulz: Talk to your rashes and be like, "Maybe we have like... "
Christine Schiefer: No, that's not a bad idea.
Em Schulz: Maybe we allow rashes all over our body except our nose. And look, you don't have rash on your nose...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So you already... You're succeeding. Look at that.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, look at me go, and then that kind of prompts you to be like, "Oh, okay, I can do the next step." Okay, yeah, I like that. That's a good angle.
Em Schulz: I'm trying. Also, I, I know you said you wanna go get your hair cut. Your hair actually looks quite stunning at the moment.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, thank you. I took a shower today because I woke up covered in hives, and I was like, "I need to rinse my body off... "
Em Schulz: Oh, it shows.
Christine Schiefer: "In cold water." Um, but thank you. I did, uh, I did wash my hair today, which is the first time I've even had the time to do that in a long time, so...
Em Schulz: Lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Um, anyway, you know, it's hard out there to be a grown-up, but we all are in that same boat. I don't think Em and I are any more, um, overwhelmed than the rest of the human population, quite frankly. 'Cause at the end of the day, we're doing a podcast. Some people are literally saving lives or...
Em Schulz: Some people are curing cancer.
Christine Schiefer: Raising eight children or curing cancer or have cancer, right? Like we're... At the end of the day, we're just fucking around. So, um, maybe that's what I tell myself. "At the end of the day, you have a fucking rash on your ear. Grow up, you know?" Okay. I don't wanna yell at myself though. I'll be nicer about it. Um, yeah. So, anyway, it's okay. Everything's good. Uh, you know, Leona's happy. I'm, I'm very fortunate. I feel very, um... I feel like life is good. It's just very busy, so, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, just know everyone's gonna love our show work. We're... It's gonna... Every single time, this is not the first time we've panicked like this, we're always panicking like this before the show, and it always turns out great.
Christine Schiefer: The live show. Yeah.
Em Schulz: The live show. Yeah. It always turns out great. It's gonna be great.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's gonna be great. And I think it's gonna be like...
Em Schulz: I don't know how, but it's gonna be great.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, next level... I mean, the first tour we ever did of the Queen Mary, like the first like official like, you know...
Em Schulz: Ghost hunt.
Christine Schiefer: Ghost hunt tour, yeah. We... Our room was literally stolen by Zak Bagans, like he came in like totally unprompted obviously, like we called and found out that his team had paid the hotel to lik take our room, right? So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. The comedy wrote itself there.
Christine Schiefer: Round, round two, we were like, "How the fuck could we ever top that?" But then we somehow did. Like we did, we felt even the prouder of our second show, so now we're like, "Okay, now we gotta top our second show." So it just... It feels like we're the only ones pressuring ourselves, but at the end of the day, we end up, you know, with something we're proud of. So it's just a... We set the bar high in this one aspect of our lives. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Because everyone else has such more intense jobs than we do. We...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Know that if you're coming to our show to relax, we wanna make sure you're entertained. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: The pressure is on because we're aware that capitalism brings everyone down, and you're taking an-hour-and-a-half to look at us, and, uh, we wanna make sure that you, you're happy with it, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're paying good money to be there and have fun, and like Em said, relax and have a good time. So yeah, we wanna make that um, the best possible for you.
Em Schulz: Did everyone like our 20 minutes of uh... You know, people, some people, probably not most, I'm sure there's someone out there who's gonna complain, but a lot of people seem to really, uh, enjoy us getting more candid on the podcast. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, really? How do you know this? Do you follow Reddit? 'Cause I for sure do not.
Em Schulz: No!
Christine Schiefer: Oh. How do you even know then?
Em Schulz: No. 'Cause I have friends who follow Reddit and they only tell me the good things. They know not to tell me the bad things.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that that's nice. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and I think they're in like Facebook groups or something. Uh, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: They don't, they don't send me links. They just say, "Hey, this is what's up," so...
Christine Schiefer: I love that. I love that. Yeah. I... My brother usually kind of, um, keeps an eye out just in case he needs to update me on the thoughts and feelings of the masses. Um...
Em Schulz: Well, it feels like... I think 'cause a lot of people... You know, one of the best things about our podcast, which we've talked about a million times, is that we... You and I, our friendship grew up on this show.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so I feel like a lot of people who've been listening from the beginning also feel like they know us that well. And I think us being vulnerable is a nice element to the show. So I don't know if we should feel too bad.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I'm really vulnerable, and my body's falling apart, so I hope that makes you feel better, folks. [laughter] I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: "I hope you're happy." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Are you [0:24:07.6] ____?
Em Schulz: "Is this what you want?" Okay. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it does feel like...
Em Schulz: Look, look, let's...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sharing it with everybody though. Like it does feel like, you know, a venting session with friends. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like that is what it feels like, so I am appreciative of that.
Em Schulz: Well, let's do what this podcast is meant for as it's supposed to be escapism from the real world, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: How about I tell you a ghost story?
Christine Schiefer: Please. Thank you so much.
Em Schulz: I am drinking... I usually drink my LDs, but I didn't have that in the fridge today. I had literally one called "Weird Water... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: With a little octopus on him.
Christine Schiefer: I think I've heard of that.
Em Schulz: I have not ever drank him before.
Christine Schiefer: Is that... Where'd you find it? In the fridge?
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Is it like Allison's?
Em Schulz: In the fridge. I don't know anymore. It's not... It's mine now. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Are you sure it's not like alcoholic? [laughter]
Em Schulz: "100% of our profits from Weird Water go to charity." Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice.
Em Schulz: Purified water.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I don't know, just 'cause it said weird water, I was like, "What does that mean?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. Does it make you feel weird? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I, I mean...
Em Schulz: Um, speaking of, speaking of those, I feel weird when they're not drinking any water, maybe this is your call-to-action to hydrate my thirsty little rats.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, that might make... That might actually make me feel better, so I'm gonna drink some too. Oh, look at my cup. I mean, my...
Em Schulz: Oh, she's beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: Sticker. Yeah, this is my sticker, um, that I bought on Etsy, and uh, the artist who created it, uh, sent me... Well, I ordered like six of them and they sold out 'cause we've re-shared it on, on Instagram. Um, we'll put the...
Em Schulz: That's awesome.
Christine Schiefer: Let's put the link in 'cause I don't wanna mispronounce her name or anything. I don't... I can't think of it off the top my head. But we'll put it in the show notes, um, to link to... If you want the sticker, which by the way is a sticker of a Liquid Death can that says, uh, "Drink water, you thirsty little rats," and it's...
Em Schulz: That's right.
Christine Schiefer: Of course, lemon flavor, and it says...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Let's crack into it." And, uh, the, the Liquid Death part says, "And that's why we drink." So it's kind of like a...
Em Schulz: How fun.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Isn't that cute? I have one for you, Em. I bought like six, six stickers.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Uh, okay, well, to my queen thirsty rat, uh, I'm glad you're hydrating. That ought to fix something.
Christine Schiefer: That'll clear things up.
Em Schulz: And to, [chuckle] and to my other thirsty little rats out there, please, um, gulp, gulp, gulp. Would you like to do the countdown to my story?
Christine Schiefer: I would love to. In three, two, one, action.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: That was, that was a good one.
Em Schulz: Today's story has a funny name, so that ought to help you get through the week as well. "The Cock Lane Haunting."
Christine Schiefer: What's funny about that? [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Hee-hee-hee.
Em Schulz: Okay, so we are in 1757. We are in England. During the Enlightenment Period, there's this man named William Kent.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: And he is essentially a loan shark...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Back in the day, but he is not good at his job.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He, he loans a lot of money to people, and it's nearly a guarantee he'll never get the money back. Uh, he just makes poor business decisions.
Christine Schiefer: So, okay, [chuckle] so he's just a sucker. He's just... [laughter]
Em Schulz: So he's just a sucker.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I think he's calling himself something bigger and better, but he really is just falling for anything and everything and then shocked when he doesn't get his money back.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So, uh, that's what William's up to. He ends up falling in love with this woman named Elizabeth Lynes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Elizabeth Lynes comes from a very wealthy family, and her family thinks you could do so much better than that putz over there.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: "I don't know what you're doing with this loan shark."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: "Um, but, you know, if you're gonna be with him, I guess there's nothing we can do about that." They end up getting married. Elizabeth gets pregnant. But she must have had a difficult pregnancy because her sister Fanny moves in to help them and help around the house. The birth must have also been tough because Elizabeth dies shortly after giving birth to the baby.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: But Fanny decides that she's gonna stay and take care of her nephew and be there for her extended family, but then the baby dies...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: At like two months old.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: So grief-stricken, William and his sister-in-law Fanny turn to each other for comfort and they do a little falling in love.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And Fanny's parents, AKA Elizabeth's parents, who already hated him...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. Now both their kids are married to the same guy. This blows.
Em Schulz: They're like, "Motherfucker. Like I hate this guy. What is he... What, what is so amazing about him that they're just... They just can't get enough of him?"
Christine Schiefer: Man.
Em Schulz: Uh, Cock Lane Haunting. No, I'm just kidding.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Hmm.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Uh, but no, there must be something charming about this guy and, yeah, two, two of the daughters have now fallen in love with him.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And so they decide they wanna get married, and her parents are like, "You have to be kidding me. Absolutely not." This was especially forbidden because back then church law prohibited certain marriages, and a lot of times those marriages included a widow or a widower marrying their dead spouse's sibling, so...
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Uh, which I don't know why that was the rule, especially because a lot of people at the time did not like that rule. They wanted to be able to marry their dead spouse's sibling.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I feel like that happened semi-regularly.
Em Schulz: You know what's weird? It happened in my own family. Uh, there's, there was like three brothers from one family and three sisters from another family who just all married each other and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my Lord.
Em Schulz: And so much time has passed that we don't really know the reason. I was like, there's no way three brothers fell in love with three sisters. But I think what happened is that people just kept dying and you just wanted to keep everyone in the family, so you just decided to marry them to take them in and...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Um, but... So that... I mean, I'm assuming that's the reason.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It feels, it feels more likely than three brothers finding... Falling in love with three sisters.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, that's such an opposite of what Em...
Em Schulz: I feel like it was...
Christine Schiefer: Would normally say, which is like, "Oh, my gosh. Wow, what a cool love story." I feel like...
Em Schulz: It... I... If it, if it's all about falling in love, that is super cool, but I'm thinking logically, there... Like that's just probably not likely, but I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Who knows? Maybe they were all just like swept up in the moment. They were like, "I guess I'm in love with the third sister."
Em Schulz: Or yeah, it's like, well, two of them fell in love with two of them, and then the other three were like, "Oh, I guess... "
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "I guess I have to be."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and so yeah, but despite this rule, a lot of families thought like, "This is a stupid rule. Like what if at a time when women can't take care of themselves, if my husband dies, I would like the brother to maybe take me in and my kids just so that way the extended family all stays together."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or if, uh, the wife died, maybe the sister like Fanny would wanna come in and like make sure that the children are still taken care of when the husband's at work or...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It doesn't have to be like, uh, a romantic marriage, which by the way, marriage did not start with romance.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, like it could totally be transactional just to keep the family together, but there was this law that said you can't do it.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And there were some churches who actually did go against that. They were like, "Okay, we'll marry you like kind of secretly, and like we just won't really talk about it, but if anyone like contests this, then we're going to void it. We're gonna say like, 'Oh, this is null.' So if we get caught, basically, we're going to deny, deny, deny." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Back off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And, uh, so William and Fanny, who were now in love with each other and wanted to get married, they knew even if Fanny's parents approved or even if Fanny's parents approved, they really couldn't do it unless they found a sympathetic church.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But because her parents were so against it, even if they found a sympathetic church, they knew that her parents would challenge it, and it was going to be void no matter what. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay.
Em Schulz: Marriage wasn't really an option for them, so they just kind of took off, and they ran to London together. They moved into a rental house that happened to be on Cock Lane.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And, uh, this house belonged to a guy named Richard Parsons who was renting it out to them.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And Richard worked at a nearby church, so William told him immediately, "Oh, yeah, she's... "
Christine Schiefer: You telling me... You're telling me...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Dick owns Cock Lane?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's out of control. I don't know if I believe this story anymore.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It does actually sound like maybe it just got passed through England as like a bar story.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, it's like one of those like, uh, urban legends.
Em Schulz: And her name, and her name's Fanny, which is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my god, you're totally right! There's Fanny moves onto Cock Lane in Dick's building. This is like ridiculous. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's ridiculous. Also, isn't...
Christine Schiefer: It's ridiculous.
Em Schulz: In England, doesn't Fanny not mean butt? It means the other side?
Christine Schiefer: That's what I mean, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's uh... It's... Yeah, I don't know why they would call her that over there, but okay.
Em Schulz: William. Willy? A willy?
Christine Schiefer: A Willy. Willy and Fanny move into Dick's boarding house on Cock Lane. This, this is really ridiculous.
Em Schulz: Maybe I'm actually telling a really long bar joke.
Christine Schiefer: This feels like it's gonna have a punchline for sure. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, if there is, I don't know about it. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, the part about the baby and mom dying is not funny so far, so I'm waiting for it to get funny, but maybe it will.
Em Schulz: But also a lot of like old English jokes are kind of dark, so, you know, I, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, a lot of our jokes are kind of dark. Yeah. So I guess maybe, maybe we're in for a treat.
Em Schulz: Let's see where this takes us. Maybe to PornHub or something. Um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: God. No wonder our internet keeps lagging.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, so Richard has... He actually works at a nearby church, so when William and Fanny are looking for a place to move in, and they find out he works at the church, they're, on-site, they start lying. They're like, "Oh, no, we, we're married for sure. Don't even worry about it. We're married."
Christine Schiefer: For sure, for sure, for sure.
Em Schulz: "We deserve to live together, and you shouldn't even look twice at that."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So Richard takes them in. He is going through it. I don't know what's going on in his life, but he is hurting, money-wise. That's why he has people renting his house and things like that. And William, the incredible loan shark he is, decides to lend him money, thinking that he'll get paid back eventually. Um, and then now he's in an awkward situation where his landlord is not paying him, which feels like he kind of like gamed the system.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. That's ridiculous. That's like... That is the most ridiculous thing you've said so far, and you've said a lot of dirty words. Uh...
Em Schulz: It's...
Christine Schiefer: Wow. So like he's literally... No... I've never heard of such a bad loan shark that your landlord owes you money. Like this is...
Em Schulz: I know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ridiculous. Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, so he never sees his money again. Him and Richard just fucking hate each other now because I think Richard's like, "Get out of my house," and William's like, "Pay me first." Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for real.
Em Schulz: Which like, wouldn't you think it would all be resolved if William was like, "I'm just not gonna pay rent, and we can just call it even," or something?
Christine Schiefer: That's what I was thinking, yeah.
Em Schulz: But I'm assuming something was going on where Richard needed even more money, and the rent was like barely covering it, so if he missed rent... I don't know what the deal was, but anyway, he loses the money, he never pays William back, William hates him, Richard hates him, and they start getting into fights over it. Eventually, William threatens to sue Richard, which I'm sure he's done to many other people he lost money to.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: His wife Fanny is now pregnant. His wife, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Common law wife.
Em Schulz: Is now... Common law wife is now pregnant. And she is too stressed about this, but she did not like being alone. She was like, "I can't stand the stress of either of you. I wanna be alone, but I don't, I don't know really who else to turn to." She knew that her landlord had a daughter named Betty, and invited Betty to come stay over. Which I feel like is so messy because she's like, "Okay, my husband and our landlord hate each other, how about I call the landlord's daughter and have her come over for a little sleepover"?
Christine Schiefer: You are so right. Like this is... You're right. This is getting toxic as fuck.
Em Schulz: It's like so messy like, like...
Christine Schiefer: It's so messy.
Em Schulz: And how do you even tell your husband like, "Oh yeah, the, the guy you hate, his daughter's coming over to hang."
Christine Schiefer: "'Cause, 'cause I need her to be here 'cause you're not helping enough." I don't know.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: This just seems really, uh, messy, yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, so when William goes away on business, she invites Betty over and says like, "Oh, we can just like have a girl's night." Keep in mind, Betty is 10.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Keep in mind? What do you mean? You have not told me that yet. That is, that is... Oh, gosh. Oh, golly gee.
Em Schulz: Talk about extra messy too, because it's like now I feel like you're absolutely just gonna like trash her dad to her and like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Now there's a child here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Sure.
Em Schulz: So, apparently, the, the, the thought behind it is that Fanny must have seen something in Betty that reminded her of Elizabeth, and they...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And since she lost her sister, she wanted to treat this other kid kind of like her sister, and they just got along.
Christine Schiefer: And she's pregnant, so it's like, "Oh, maybe she can have a bigger... "
Em Schulz: She's pregnant.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, okay, I get it.
Em Schulz: And it's the 1700s. I don't know how old Fanny is, but to be a pregnant woman back then, she had to be like maybe 15. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: 15, right. Exactly.
Em Schulz: So maybe they really were like not that far off in age.
Christine Schiefer: More contemporaries, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: So Betty comes over, they sleep in the same room, and Fanny keeps complaining about all these strange noises that keep happening at night in the house which like, by the way, you already invited a 10-year-old over, shady, but like now you're just scaring the shit out of her?
Christine Schiefer: Now she's in your bed and you're trying to scare the shit out of her? Cool.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I wonder if that's part of the reason why she had her over like... 'Cause she was scared?
Em Schulz: Oh, maybe. Yeah, that could be it.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like, "Oh, I need somebody to... I want someone to lay next to me."
Em Schulz: Yeah, truly. And like 10-year-old, you'll figure it out. You'll help me, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, you'll sleep anywhere.
Em Schulz: Well, also... Because it was originally Richard's house and he like moved out to sublet it, maybe he felt like, "Oh, Betty, you've lived here before."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right, like this is your old room. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "Maybe you can... " Yeah. It has to be so weird as a 10-year-old watching adults claim your bedroom as their room.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And to be clear, folks, not cool. Do not invite a 10-year-old into your bed just 'cause you're scared. I don't know how old this woman is...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: But like it's, it's not cool, whatever's happening. Okay.
Em Schulz: So, uh, she invites Betty over. She's complaining about like, "Your house is so creepy by myself. Thank you for coming over. I'm just... I can't ever fall asleep because of all these strange noises at night. There's knocking and scratching sounds... "
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: "And I can just never sleep." So to this day, people have also speculated that during this time, Fanny also again confided in Betty that... Maybe because they were like having a girls night and they were telling secrets and maybe they felt like they were close to each other. I don't know why she felt so damn close to a fifth grader, but apparently, she maybe confided in Betty that she wasn't really married to William.
Em Schulz: Gasp. And so if Betty told her father, it would have only given Richard even more reason to hate William.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: We don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe some, some leverage too.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We don't know, but that's like the thought. So...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: So William comes home from his business trip where he probably lost money, I don't know, and...
Christine Schiefer: He just gave away everybody... Gave money to everyone. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, he's a... And apparently, things get worse between the men. They are still fighting. Eventually, it gets to a point where William and Fanny move out and Richard and Betty move back into the house.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Apparently, Betty reported never hearing any hauntings after that. So it was only...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: During their... The... William and Fanny's stay that there was any creepy sounds. And at some point that kind of spread throughout the neighborhood, the like, "Oh, when they lived here, they were hearing weird things."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And at some point it leaked that they were an illegitimate marriage.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And so their history kinda kept, you know, followed them, and the neighborhood conflated everything and thought, "Oh, because they're sinning their sister, the, the, her dead sister must have been haunting them for betraying the family."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my gosh. Okay. Wow.
Em Schulz: Which like, I love a small town gossip. That's like a little too much. Like we can...
Christine Schiefer: They've taken a little too far. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, so anyway, that was the, the main thought is that this was clearly the ghost of Elizabeth being, how, saying, "How could you?"
Christine Schiefer: Scratching on the walls. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Scratching on the walls. Uh, so now they've, they've moved away because they had to. William and Richard were fighting too much. They end up finding this other area to stay and very quickly, I guess it was like a... They found it last minute. It was really dirty, it was unclean, and Fanny contracts smallpox, and remember, she's also pregnant, and her and the baby both die.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Shit. Oh, my God. What? I did not see that coming.
Em Schulz: So now both of his wives who were sisters and carrying his children, both die, babies both die.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my gosh. Terrible.
Em Schulz: When Fanny died, everything of hers, 'cause remember, she's from a wealthy family, everything of hers surprisingly went to William. The family did not know that they were playing house and that they got married and, uh, did not know that Fanny had rewritten her will, that everything would go to William.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: So the family was pissed because they were like, "Oh, well, now this fucking guy that we hate and associate with both of our dead daughters, now we have to give him part of our money? Fuck this." Um, but Fanny's brother... She has two brothers. They both come into play. There's John and there's Thomas.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Fanny's brother John eventually honors her wishes and says, "Yeah, we don't like the guy, but apparently he had something going on 'cause both of our sisters liked him. We're gonna give Fanny's share to William."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I'm honestly surprised at this point that William didn't also ask for Elizabeth's because he needs so much money... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That he keeps losing everything. Like...
Christine Schiefer: He's also probably not good at being stern with anyone. So he's probably like, "Can I have it?"
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they're probably like, "No."
Em Schulz: Yeah. "Please?"
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, "Okay."
Em Schulz: Yeah. So he... I'm, I'm shocked he didn't ask for Elizabeth's. I don't know if that happened. I never heard from, about it, but, um, but Fanny's share ends up going to him.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The money that he got was just over like $30,000 today, and the money came from these properties that once belonged to her other brother, Thomas.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So he had these properties. He's dead. I don't know what's going on with this family line, but...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Every sibling is like dying except John. Um, so there was a guy, Thomas, he had all these properties. He died, and then in his will, it was, "When I die, I want you to sell my properties and then just split it amongst my family."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, uh, when he died, the... Fanny's share was... Uh, Fanny inherited her share, and then when she died, William inherited her share.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: Does that make sense?
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: So, apparently, John, the brother that has survived it all...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, amidst all of his siblings, he was responsible for divvying out the, the funds after Thomas died, but he didn't know everything. So it was a total accident, but if... He finds out later that one of the properties he sold after Thomas died, Thomas didn't actually own that property. He was just renting it. And so John accidentally sold somebody else's land.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And he was like, "Oh shit. Like I just sold property that wasn't ours. Whoops. I need to repay the buyer. So everyone that I just...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: "Sent money to, can you awkwardly send it back to me... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, gosh.
Em Schulz: "So I can repay the buyer?"
Christine Schiefer: Cancel that Venmo request.
Em Schulz: Yes, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So, um, all the family was like, "Yeah, totally, like take this chunk of our inheritance and, and pay it back towards the buyer." The only person who wouldn't do it was William. And everyone's like, "Well, there's another reason why we fucking hate this guy because... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, this guy just sucks sometimes.
Em Schulz: "He married both of our daughters when we didn't like him. Both of them are dead. He took their money, and now he's not even giving back a portion that like isn't owed to him.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And outraged, John files to sue William for the money...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And was ready to finally take him down once and for all since nobody in that family liked him. William is unfazed. He thinks that the courts are going to agree with him, that he never did anything wrong, and John was just stupid with money, says the bad loan shark. But [laughter] John was just stupid with money, and it's not William's responsibility to send him money that he shouldn't have ever rightfully inherited to begin with. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: He ends up marrying another wealthy woman named Bathsheba Bowers...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And he thought that was kind of the end of his time with the Lynes family. And... But because he ended up marrying another wealthy woman, everyone's like, "Hang on, three wealthy women you're marrying all, all back-to-back, and you're bad with money, and you're shady, blah, blah, blah. Maybe this is intentional. Maybe you've got some sort of scheme going on."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So back on Cock Lane, now 12-year-old Betty is living in the house because they have... They're not renting a...
Christine Schiefer: Is a spinster.
Em Schulz: Is a spinster, on her deathbed, of old age.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Aww.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And apparently, she is now reporting hearing strange noises in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit. Two years later. Okay. Interesting.
Em Schulz: Two years after Fanny moved out, and when they moved out, there was never a sound again.
Christine Schiefer: She didn't hear it. Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: So now, two years later, now there's sounds back...
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: After Fanny's dead. So last time it was believed to be the, the original wife, Elizabeth, haunting her sister Fanny.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But Betty starts hearing scratching noises like Fanny used to, and the locals hear about this. And the rumor now is that Fanny has replaced Elizabeth as the ghost and is back to... Back from the dead to warn everyone in town that it was not smallpox that killed her but William.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Shut the fuck up. How did I not see that coming?
Em Schulz: The, the way that I would be at the tavern going to every table being like, "Are you reading about this? Like are you hearing this?"
Christine Schiefer: Folks, if you don't believe in past lives, consider this.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: There's no way in the entire universe of existence, there's no way that Em was not at that fucking tavern that day. And we all know it. We know Em's soul was there just fucking eating this shit up.
Em Schulz: I was the town crier. And I, and I think...
Christine Schiefer: You were, and you still are.
Em Schulz: And I've always said that.
Christine Schiefer: And I've always said that!
Em Schulz: I, I know that if I've been around for at least 10 lives, four of them I was a town crier. There's [laughter] no way with the amount of gossip that just like, just... I just eat it up. I just eat it up.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a [0:46:36.7] ____ blanket...
Em Schulz: I know...
Christine Schiefer: On you. Like you just drape yourself in it.
Em Schulz: I was probably like some horrible, unethical paparazzi or something in another life.
Christine Schiefer: For sure, for sure.
Em Schulz: I don't, I don't know what I did, who I was with, but I know that it was juicy. I do know that.
Christine Schiefer: You... Oh, yeah, you know it was a grand old time. [laughter]
Em Schulz: A grand... So yes, keep in mind, I'm running from tavern to tavern being like, "If you haven't heard about it, I'm here to tell you about it."
Christine Schiefer: "Hear ye, hear ye."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I feel like maybe I was one of those little noisy boys who was like, "Get your papers," or something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. "Just a nickel."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So the whole town is hearing about this, probably because my past life is screaming about it. But...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, non-stop, non-stop.
Em Schulz: The Lynes family versus the, versus William, that whole debacle... I mean, gossip was bound to happen because the family already hated the man who married two of their daughters, both of them died, and now there's ghosts. So like...
Christine Schiefer: Now he won't... And he won't give their money back. Right.
Em Schulz: And he won't give them their money back when he doesn't even deserve it. The town is now saying that he was just always about money, so he is just a gold digger, he was just only after wealthy women, and he must have poisoned, uh, Fanny and, and just moved on to the next...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Meanwhile, Betty keeps reporting in her town the knocks are getting louder than ever. Everyone in the neighborhood could hear the knocks from the street.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: They happened throughout the day, but they also got more active right before Betty would go to bed. And soon, uh, one reverend named John Moore decided that he was going to investigate the ghost of Scratching Fanny, which is what I've obviously named her at the tavern.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Oh, no, that sounds like you've really got a yeast infection that won't go away.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So sorry.
Em Schulz: Maybe this joke I'm telling, this long-form joke is a joke I created in a past life. That's the dream.
Christine Schiefer: Is this the joke? Like Scratching Fanny? It feels like a thing you would say for some Vagisil... You know, if you need Vagisil. Like it feels like I've got scratching fanny, you know, like...
Em Schulz: It certainly sounds like, like herpes or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it does.
Em Schulz: Like, like something...
Christine Schiefer: Like pre...
Em Schulz: Something with an itch.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't have quite a ghostly ring to it, more just like a inconvenient health risk situation.
Em Schulz: Also, I think when we say it with our American accent, it does sound more like a medical condition, but I think if like an English, like an old, like an old grandma who's like a little too silly after a few cocktails...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If she said, "Scratching fanny," I'd be like, "Ah, girl, you're so silly."
Christine Schiefer: "You're so silly." But also like, "Do you need me to go to CVS? Because it sounds like you do need some Vagisil."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And like I can't unhear it, I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Just a soap scrub is all you really need.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: So, um, so anyway, this reverend goes to Cock Lane, I'm sure there's a joke there too...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, he goes to Cock Lane. He meets with Betty. And Betty has a sister Anne. So now I'm wondering why the hell she felt the need to go find a sister in Fanny when she had one...
Christine Schiefer: Wait.
Em Schulz: In Anne.
Christine Schiefer: I thought... But I thought Fanny was looking for the sister 'cause she lost her sister.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but... Hmm. But then also, why didn't she also invite Anne over?
Christine Schiefer: Or was Anne younger or older?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anne was nine, not 10.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say, 'cause I don't... If she was older, then I do not know why she didn't invite Anne.
Em Schulz: I don't know. But... So Betty and Anne, they're at the house on Cock Lane. This reverend shows up and uh, they're like, "We, we're hearing about Scratching Fanny, you gotta tell... Like what's this about?" And um, Betty and Anne, they say, "Yeah, she's a real thing. She's following us all over the house. She seems to especially, you know, uh, cater to Betty whenever, wherever Betty is, you can hear Fanny not too far away. They said whenever they would go anywhere, you knew Fanny was nearby because of the scratching sounds. And Reverend John Moore, he witnesses the knocks himself coming from the walls, from a bed, from a table, and he also heard scratching sounds throughout the room.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: He's immediately convinced of this ghost's existence, and soon enough, the entire town and its surrounding towns are talking about this non-stop.
Em Schulz: Gasp. They all... Probably because of a name like Scratching Fanny, now in hindsight, I'm like, oh, yeah, well, that...
Christine Schiefer: That's catchy.
Em Schulz: That's just comedy writing itself.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So people gather around the home. They start showing up like unannounced because they wanna hear the scratching from outside. Uh, Richard, because he's always hurting for money, he began charging admission for seances in his home for people to even...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Experience Fanny's ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Everyone wanted a chance to visit the house and to see and experience these spirits once and for all. And many would join the seances to hear the ghost knock for... One's for yes, two for no, and through enough seances and questionings, it was determined that yes, Fanny Lynes was indeed the spirit, and she was poisoned by her ex-husband William.
Em Schulz: Gasp. So now Reverend John is, Reverend John Moore, he publishes a story in the public ledger. This is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: Me for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, this is you for sure.
Em Schulz: He publishes a story in the public ledger, and the public ledger was known at the time to basically be a local National Enquirer. It was...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I love that for them.
Em Schulz: The... Every article was just essentially ragging on each other from your own town.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The story he wrote about Scratching Fanny, he censored the names by just keeping it, uh, initials, but everyone could guess F stood for Fanny and Mr. K stood for Mr. William Kent.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Not smooth.
Em Schulz: It was pretty clear to everybody who, what he was talking about. And then he put... He, uh, published something in the next issue too where he kept talking about the hauntings and the drama of the family. And basically, he said that people were witnessing shadows of a woman beckoning the men to the house, people were hearing the knocks and scratching at all hours especially when Betty was in her room. And the story kept growing, and soon there were poems, lines in place, articles and art that was all being published throughout all of London about Scratching Fanny.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, holy crap.
Em Schulz: Once he, once William read the ledger and was like, "I think I'm Mr. K... "
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: William called, uh, I don't know, yeah, found Reverend John Moore...
Christine Schiefer: He called upon him. I feel like that's what people said back then.
Em Schulz: Call...
Christine Schiefer: Like you just call upon someone, it means like you just show up.
Em Schulz: Sure. Or like open your window and just go, "John... "
Christine Schiefer: "Hey."
Em Schulz: "What are you doing?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Hey, Johnny Boy."
Em Schulz: Uh, he finds Reverend John Moore, he says, "You need to clear my name. I saw what you wrote in the paper. That's fucked up." And John says, "I don't know what to tell you, dude. Uh, I fully believe in the Fanny accusations and I think you killed her."
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. That's true. The reverend like fully believes it, so it's not like he's even just doing it for funsies. He like seemingly, it seems like he genuinely believes this is a spirit.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And William is like, "Yeah, I get that I've done some shitty things, but I'm not a murderer. Like please don't... "
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "Let people think that about me." And Reverend Moore says, "Look, if you wanna clear your name, come to the house to witness Fanny's ghost with me, and you could even... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: "Bring your own witnesses, and we'll see what she has to say."
Em Schulz: Gasp. And William's like, "Okay, I'll go to the house with Fanny's literal doctor who cared for her until she died from smallpox."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: "And I will take her pharmacist who was prescribing her... " Um, at the time, she, he was called an apothecary, not a pharmacist.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "And I'm gonna take him. I'm gonna take everyone who knew her medical background, who's been with her since we've been together to attest that I did not poison her. Stop saying that."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: So at the house, they all, all four of them, the two witnesses, William and the reverend, they all wait for Fanny to show up. They wait for her ghost to appear. She never does. And finally, Reverend Moore is like, "How about you go downstairs and um, and, and I'll let you know when she appears?" Which is like so shady. It's like, why... How about we all sit in the same fucking room and we see if she appears?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't love that.
Em Schulz: And eventually he comes running back downstairs and he goes, "Oh, she's here now, she's here now. You can come up."
Christine Schiefer: Very convenient.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And uh, Reverend John Moore starts questioning Fanny on the murder, and they start hearing knocks around the room, ultimately asking if her murderer was in the room, and she hears a yes, or that she knocks yes.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: William, who maybe didn't murder her, is probably like, "Oh, fuck, like this is not good."
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah.
Em Schulz: After the seance was complete, William storms out with his witnesses, and all three believe that Richard, who still owed William money, this is Richard, his landlord, who still owns the house...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Still owes William money, all three of them believe that Richard put his daughter up to something or...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Did something and has now convinced the entire town of this elaborate hoax. Reverend Moore just happens to be falling for it like it's nobody's business.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's very convenient that he owes this guy money, he hates him, the woman dies and now... And his daughter's like, "Oh, she used to hear knocking and scratches, and I can replicate those."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, perfect, perfect recipe to bring this guy down.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But also, William has such a bad reputation for already being like such a schmoozer and like... Like nobody's gonna believe him...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: When he is like, "Oh, they just don't like me."
Christine Schiefer: Right. He's kinda screwed, yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like, nobody likes you, so...
Christine Schiefer: That's not part... Yeah, that's just a given.
Em Schulz: But you're right. Reverend John Moore weirdly, heavily believes in the Fanny ghost. He even met with London's mayor, this is what I would... This is round two of me at the tavern.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, are you the mayor too?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You... I feel like your soul split up into all of these people 'cause you couldn't decide who to be.
Em Schulz: Well, he even meets with London's mayor and asks that... Personally, he asks for William to be arrested for murder. Like this is a man who maybe didn't murder anybody and there's no evidence.
Christine Schiefer: This is a man of the cloth who's just asking for this guy to be arrested on no proof...
Em Schulz: No programs.
Christine Schiefer: Except, uh, scratching noises.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: Other members of the public also begin to call for William to be hanged.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God, you can't do that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But some, some people, thank God, with some sound of mind were at William's defense, uh, but this includes some church authorities who actually saw Fanny on her deathbed, and they witnessed William's adoration for her, they saw Fanny dying of natural causes, they remember the doctor saying that, um, and they wanted Richard arrested for false accusations against William and that he should be hanged.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, okay, I was gonna say, yeah, exactly... Wait. No. I don't think anyone should be hanged, to be clear. I just feel like, why are we getting so out, bent out of shape? Like...
Em Schulz: Like, like we get it like...
Christine Schiefer: Nobody needs to be hanged right now, you know, just like relax.
Em Schulz: Like two men are mad at each other. I get it. Like sit down. It's fine.
Christine Schiefer: I get it. The world is fucking ending, okay, but like, come on, take a break.
Em Schulz: The mayor shows up after hearing all of this, he's like, "What is this hullabaloo about, some fucking guy who owes someone money?"
Christine Schiefer: Hullabaloo.
Em Schulz: The mayor shows up and he's like, "Hold up, there's not enough evidence to arrest anyone or hang anyone."
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: "Why are we doing this?"
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. And thank you.
Em Schulz: And then he says, "But I do order Richard Parsons who owns the house, he must allow... "
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: "A church authority and that church authority's committee to observe Betty to see if she really is haunted. Because maybe there's an exorcism needed.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm assuming they didn't... They told the reverend like, "That you're," present company excluded, "you're not going to be the... "
Em Schulz: Reverend Moore was not...
Christine Schiefer: Or is he going...
Em Schulz: Reverend Moore was not involved.
Christine Schiefer: Not invited.
Em Schulz: Not invited.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I think that's for the best.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: I think he's a little biased at this point.
Em Schulz: I, I... You know, the mayor sounds like he was a good mayor at the time. I don't know what...
Christine Schiefer: The mayor, for what it's worth, he kind of seems to have a good head on his shoulds at least compared to the rest of them. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Maybe I'm wrong, if I were to look up the, the 1757 mayor of London, maybe...
Christine Schiefer: His track record, yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But in this one case, he seems to be...
Christine Schiefer: But this one instance. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so he says, "This is all fucked up, but Richard, we're gonna have a committee actually investigate if you're daughter is being like possessed or something, because if that's the case, then since we're a big, you know, God-fearing community, maybe this girl needs an exorcism or something."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: So this committee shows up at Richard's house. It includes this guy named Stephen, he's an earl of he church...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: A priest named Dr. Douglas, uh, and he was known to investigate fraud in the church. There's another doctor, there's a church speaker, and then there's that earl who I was talking about, his neighbor comes too, and the neighbor's name is Captain Wilkinson, and he was one of the people who actually attended some of the earlier seances at the house and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: By the way, was so scared of ghosts that in case anything went awry at the seance, he brought a gun to fight off the ghosts.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: To fight off the ghosts. Sure. Okay, you know what, this guy seems a little kooky, and for now, I'm here for it. We'll see what happens.
Em Schulz: He was, he was okay with the seance. He was not thinking it all the way through though.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: So basically, it's a bunch of church people, and then this guy's neighbor. Uh, they all...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Are part of the...
Christine Schiefer: With a gun. Who, who...
Em Schulz: With a gun.
Christine Schiefer: Is so scared that somehow he still continues to come. It's like us, like we're so scared and yet we keep doing it. Like there's no good reason like, "Don't worry, I brought a gun." It's like, that doesn't make it better.
Em Schulz: It doesn't help.
Christine Schiefer: It just makes it... No.
Em Schulz: That's when Christine says, "Oh, uh, hmm, another location where we're told not to bring alcohol? How about I just bring wine instead?" It's like that's the same thing.
Christine Schiefer: That's [1:00:14.9] ____ fixing.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I'm like, I'm upset they won't let me bring alcohol. How about I just bring some gin and then I'll feel better? It's like that... You're literally missing the whole fucking point.
Em Schulz: I will say this, this won't go into the future show, so I can just say it now, but there is a clip that I think is so funny of you that I'm currently watching is that because we're not supposed to have brought alcohol, and this is the third location you've done that, Christine, you keep calling your, your wine your red water, you're like, "Oh, I just, I just have to go get my red water. I just have to drink my red... "
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't even remember saying that. It clearly was just like in the moment, my like defense mechanism like, I just switch my brain to, don't say alcohol words.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So maybe Captain Wilkinson was like, "I need to bring my gun, I mean, my um, my ghost... "
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: " [1:00:57.9] ____."
Christine Schiefer: "My big magic ghost stick. Yeah, don't worry about it." [laughter]
Em Schulz: So the committee, they all basically move into Richard's house, they're there to investigate and observe Betty and see what the hell's going on. Because maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: There really is a ghost. Despite the two men feuding, maybe there's a ghost to pay attention to. So Betty uh, stays in the committee's custody for several nights, although I will say, thank God they all agreed that women should be watching her in bed 24/7 instead of...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good.
Em Schulz: A fucking 12-year-old with a bunch of grown-ass men.
Christine Schiefer: That's a good start.
Em Schulz: Um, and so there were four women who were on night watch essentially with her, and there's always a woman, um, around, it seems.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And they noticed right away that while Betty was in bed, the knocking would begin, and the women would report back to the committee that, "Yeah, knockings going on."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: One woman claimed that the knocking sounded like it was Betty herself hitting her chest really hard, or her fists like... You know...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: Woah. Yeah, you did that really well.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Are you Betty to? I can't keep track of this. This is getting out of control...
Em Schulz: One for yes, two for no.
Christine Schiefer: Following your past lives.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, uh-oh.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: So do you ever see Dolly Parton, how she plays the nails on her...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, no.
Em Schulz: Oh, she's... Like her acrylic nails, she plays them as a washboard...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: On a lot of her songs.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. That's incredible.
Em Schulz: And if you look at some of her songs in the credits of like who wrote it, who produced it or whatever, it will say like, "Guitar, this person, piano, this person, nails, Dolly Parton."
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up. That's so cool. I did not know that.
Em Schulz: I don't know if I... You... Uh, I don't have acrylic nails, but...
Christine Schiefer: You don't?
Em Schulz: I don't know if you can hear that.
Christine Schiefer: Actually, you do that better. I can't do it either. Huh.
Em Schulz: So anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Damn, Em.
Em Schulz: Um, if you would like to watch a video of Dolly Parton doing it into a microphone, it's lovely. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I do. I wish.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So let's see, where were we? Oh, okay, so Betty's Dolly Parton, and I am Fanny I think is where we ended. And you're Captain Wilkinson.
Christine Schiefer: That's... I don't know. I'm Captain Wilkinson for sure with my big gun that's not gonna do anything except put everyone else in danger. Sure.
Em Schulz: So Betty... They thing Betty's like hitting herself in some way, or she's causing the knocking and it's not actually a ghost. The...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I'm just like, I'm like... 'Cause I feel like you can hit your chest and make like a hollow sound, you know. Right? Like...
Em Schulz: That just sounds like a door knocking.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: But maybe if it's supposed to sound like the walls are knocking, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I mean though, like if it, if it's supposed to sound like wood, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, Betty says, um, "Hey, you're wrong. It's not me." And then the committee goes, "Okay, well, show us your knuckles." And they were wildly calloused. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Girl, girl, girl, girl, girl, come on.
Em Schulz: And conveniently enough, there was no knocking ever unless Betty was completely covered in bedding like, so you couldn't see her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And then Betty says, "Okay. But if you, if you really wanna see her for yourself, you can go to Fanny's crypt and she will appear. You can see her there." And the men are like...
Christine Schiefer: Who said this? Betty said this?
Em Schulz: Betty. I think she was... In hindsight, this...
Christine Schiefer: She was trying to deflect like, "Uh-oh, uh-oh."
Em Schulz: I think she was like a 12-year-old trying to come up with a way to like reason herself out of this and was like, "Well, if you go away, then I don't have to deal this."
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. "Why don't you go over there and look for her? I promise you'll see her." Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So they said, "I'll bite. We'll go to the cemetery and look for her and... "
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure this child is uh, with calloused knuckles is telling the truth. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So they, they go to the crypt, they don't see her. They come back and they go, "Hey, Betty, no Fanny. What's that about?" And she goes, "Well, uh... " And they say, "Here's what we're gonna do. If there's no real proof Fanny soon, we're going to arrest both of your parents for fraud for... "
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: "For, one for being complicit in your fraud and you're a child, but also because you're like... If your parents know about this and they've been exploiting you by like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that part's not good.
Em Schulz: "Charging per seances and letting people think that this place is really haunted and allowing accusations... "
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "To spew about someone who didn't murder somebody, they're going to jail if you don't show us proof that Fanny exists." Imagine the torment of a 12-year-old...
Christine Schiefer: The poor thing. She's like, "I'm in too deep for sure, for sure."
Em Schulz: So they say, "We're gonna... "
Christine Schiefer: Like where's her, where's her mom? I have not heard a thing about her mom yet. I thought it was just her and her dad.
Em Schulz: I... That's what I thought too. Her mom does show up at the end of the story, but I never... I think it was more like because at that time, she was property of him and like he was about this life that maybe the whole family just got...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay.
Em Schulz: Looped into this. I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: She doesn't really get mentioned all that much. It's mainly Richard because of his feud with William that he gets mentioned more.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. Okay.
Em Schulz: So they say, "Yeah, Betty, your parents are going to jail if you don't show us proof of Fanny. We'll leave you for a little bit and you can talk to her and uh, tell her that she needs to show up." So they leave, or what she thinks they leave. The men leave and they have a maid stay behind to watch Betty through a spy hole they cut into the wall.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Oh, no, that's not good.
Em Schulz: And they maid watched Betty eventually go into the chimney in her room and pull out a small wooden board that was hiding in there, and then she stuffs it into her pyjamas and crawls into bed, as in like, "Oh, now I can... "
Christine Schiefer: Girl...
Em Schulz: "Knock on this whole piece of wood under the bed."
Christine Schiefer: I see, you sneaky little thing.
Em Schulz: So she climbs in the bed, acts like nothing happened. The committee comes back and this fucking maid snitches. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No. Well, isn't, isn't that her job though? Wasn't she told to do this?
Em Schulz: Right. I guess so. I don't know. Maybe they weren't homies. I feel like if I were...
Christine Schiefer: And she's told to watch...
Em Schulz: Expected to watch a 12-year-old girl who was pulling a prank and it just spiraled, I would be like, I've been there. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's why you weren't the maid. You were the fucking town crier.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I guess, yeah, I see what you would do. I just don't think that that's necessarily um...
Em Schulz: Uh, well...
Christine Schiefer: The most relatable, yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, and the committee comes back, Fanny tells them, Oh, Fanny will appear by morning. Don't worry. She's gonna appear by morning." I'm sure that was like just to keep stalling.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah, what else are you gonna do at this point?
Em Schulz: Everyone goes to bed. The maid snitches to the men about the board she saw her grabbed. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The men then have the women search Betty. They find the board in her pyjamas. Betty begins to sob, and soon the story all falls into place...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: That Richard had his money issues with William, so they already didn't like each other, and then one day after Fanny died and William ran off with her inheritance, her brother John, who was trying to find him to get his chunk back for that property, went knocking on doors...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In town and stumbled upon Richard's house...
Em Schulz: Gasp. And went, "I'm looking for this guy, William, do you know him?"
Christine Schiefer: "I fucking hate him," and then the guy was like, "Well, well, well, come on in. Let's have a cuppa."
Em Schulz: Richard was probably like, "You could have not picked a more perfect house to show up at... "
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, seriously.
Em Schulz: "'Cause I fucking hate that guy. What do you need? How do I help?"
Christine Schiefer: Precisely.
Em Schulz: And so, uh, I don't know if it was John or a guy sent by John, but somebody was like, "This guy owes me money." And Richard was like, "Funny, I owe that guy money, but I am probably gonna lie about that to your face and we both just [1:08:11.3] ____."
Christine Schiefer: "Yeah, but obviously, I'm switching it around." Uh, I prefer this storyline, yes.
Em Schulz: So I don't know if they all conspired together. I don't know what the deal was, but Richard at least took it upon himself that like, "Oh, people are looking for him. I've got something on him. Um, or I at least want him to leave me alone. So to destroy William's reputation once and for all, I'm going to tell my daughter Betty to make up the ghost of Fanny and... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's so fucked up.
Em Schulz: "And say that Fanny told you she was murdered, and that way he can never see his face here again because he'll be on the run as a murderer." Ultimately, Richard and his wife and Reverend John Moore and many others were charged with conspiracy for propagating the stories against William. Um, two of the men actually paid William damages to avoid harsher sentences, which I love that at the end, he's still getting money out of people or not getting money out of people.
Christine Schiefer: He is, yeah. What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Um, Reverend John Moore and a third guy also had to raise money in the community to pay for damages, and then they went free. Which like, Reverend John Moore, yeah, he was like really intense about this, but he did nothing worse than just like really believed in something. So...
Christine Schiefer: He did really believe it. And I feel like he just got... He just got got.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like, I, I think at the end of the day, he didn't like... He wasn't cheating or lying or making stuff up...
Em Schulz: Mm-mm. No, I think he just...
Christine Schiefer: Technically.
Em Schulz: He got got. That's exactly right. Um, and then Richard himself, he was sentenced to two years in prison. And his wife, who I said would show up, she was sentenced to serve one year of hard labor. And so I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: And I was like, what the hell could hard labor look like in 1757 for women?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's not good. That can't be good.
Em Schulz: Apparently, 18th century hard labor camps had women beating hemp with a heavy mallet, which they would beat hemp to turn the hemp into rope. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: All she would do all day is swing a mallet and like hit a log of wood with hemp on it, and it would be from six in the morning to six at night every day for a year. That's a lot of shoulder pain. That's a lot of back pain.
Christine Schiefer: That's so fucked up, dude. That's so fucked up.
Em Schulz: And we don't know how involved she was. Maybe she like fully deserved to be in, like sent there, but like, I don't know anything... I feel like she was not guilty. Like I don't know enough about her side of things.
Christine Schiefer: It seemed like this is a stretch of a punishment. Like nobody was... I mean, I know this was all bad, but like nobody was killed. Thank God nobody was hanged or anything. Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like they almost were though.
Em Schulz: What I thought was fun, 'cause I've never seen this, I've never heard of a story like this in real life, Richard was actually displayed at the pillory, which like, if you've ever been to...
Em Schulz: Gasp. He like... It was one of those like the wooden things where you put your hand and your head in...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: And it's just in the middle of the square so people could just... So you'd be embarrassed basically. It was just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: You would be locked in there. He was actually displayed at the pillory to be publicly shamed which, you know, the town crier in me would've been front row, center, watching him at the pillory.
Christine Schiefer: You would've been taking selfies with him in the pillory.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I would've been like, "I'm gonna put a pen in your hand. Can you sign my paper that... My public ledger that I wrote about?"
Christine Schiefer: My public ledger. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And uh, and actually, there were a lot of people like that because so many people in support of him and not William actually saw him at the pillory and gave him money and like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow.
Em Schulz: Gave their sympathies and their condolences that he was being tried.
Christine Schiefer: Right, 'cause they probably were still like on their whole like, oh, uh, they still... Probably believed some of it, or at least believed that they hated that other guy. They hated...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: William.
Em Schulz: Totally. So he had actual like fans come and support him while he was at the pillory. And although William's innocence was proven, London itself was reluctant to give up the Cock Lane ghost probably because of the name.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, and many still insist it was real. People still have talked about the Cock Lane Haunting. Uh, Betty and her sister went to go live with relatives until her parents' time was served. London's mayor was extremely, was extremely relieved for this to just be fucking done with 'cause he was so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Over that bullshit. And, um, and Betty was never bothered by Scratching Fanny again. So that's the Cock Lane Haunting.
Christine Schiefer: Holy crap. Scratching Fanny is the best thing to ever come out of any episode we've done. No offense. But wow, that is...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I really like that story. That was a good one.
Christine Schiefer: Next level. I can't believe that. Um, I did not know what to expect today, but it was not that. So, uh, nice work, Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Um, I, you know, any wary where that, we can throw gossip into the mix, I'm all for it, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And the pillory situation, you know.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: And a town crier, you kidding me? A town crier and a pillory? That... I call that a perfect recipe.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What more could you want? Well, I'm very excited, Em, because I've actually... I haven't been so excited to, uh, do a story until this one in a long time. Does that make sense? Did I just speak English? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Hmm. I heard it in whatever language you spoke.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Excellent. I just cannot wait, uh, to do this story, except my computer won't let me open it, which is kind of why I'm just... Oh, here we go.
Em Schulz: Cute.
Christine Schiefer: Much like, what's her name? I'm just stalling. I'm like, look over there.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's giving Betty Parsons, actually.
Christine Schiefer: It's giving Betty Parsons. Um, wow. That was quite a story, Em. Now I'm gonna tell you quite a story, and I gotta be honest, as far as gossip goes, this one is probably the most gossip-heavy/batshit crazy story I've covered in ages. Um...
Em Schulz: I love when we both gossip. Ah, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, there's so much to talk about. Uh, this one, unfortunately, is all kind of sad, terrible gossip.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But it is... It's one of those stories that I really didn't know how to do this until Saoirse was like, "I'm gonna take it... Like go from this angle and tell it." And I was like, "Okay, perfect." 'Cause it's so convoluted sometimes that it's like, how do you get all the plot points and plot twists in one thing? So Saoirse did a good job. This is part one, and then there's gonna be a part two. So please buckle up because this is a bumpy ride. This is the story of Suzanne Sevakis. Here we go, friends. The date, September 12th, 1994, in Choctaw, Oklahoma.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: We start with 51-year-old Clarence Hughes. He walks into an elementary school called Indian Meridian Elementary School...
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: And he pulls out a gun.
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: He approaches the Principal James Davis, and tells him he is there to pick up his son, six-year-old Michael Anthony Hughes. He says to James, the principal, "I'm prepared to die, so if you don't take me to see my six-year-old son, you can just die with me."
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. So this, immediately, I'm, I'm sensing a custody battle.
Christine Schiefer: You are on top of things, Em. Wow, look at you. How did you know that? Wink. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, divorce kids just gonna smell that kind of thing.
Christine Schiefer: We have that, we have that sense. Yeah, talk about gossip. Yeah. We have that ability to sense it. Um, yeah, exactly right. So he says, "If you don't give me my six-year-old son, you can die right along with me. I don't care. I'm gonna... "
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: "Like, I don't... I'm not afraid to die." So this poor principal guy with no other choice, he's terrified for his life, but also all the kids in the building, he...
Em Schulz: Yeah. What do you do in the situation? I guess...
Christine Schiefer: What do you even do? Yeah, there's...
Em Schulz: Like, is it, is it right to give the gunman uh, uh, their kid? But also if you say no...
Christine Schiefer: One child in exchange for the safety of everyone else? Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say it's really like that, the train track story.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking trolley problem. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. One person or five.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my gosh. So he basically does not know what to do. And he leads Clarence, this guy, to Michael's first grade classroom. So once Clarence has Michael, he not only takes Michael, he also takes the principal, James, into the parking lot at gunpoint.
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: He forces both the principal and his son into his truck and he drives off. And everyone else just kind of watched this unfold and went, "Oh, shit, what just happened?"
Em Schulz: Thank God everyone saw though. For a second, I was like, "Oh, he is... No one's gonna know. Everyone's gonna think he just took like a principal lunch break and he... "
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think some people might have seen it, but nobody really knows what just happened. I don't know that anyone knew the extent of it at this point. Like they just saw this...
Em Schulz: Also, it was '94, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, '94.
Em Schulz: It's not like anyone you can...
Christine Schiefer: No cameras.
Em Schulz: It's like he can text someone from the car.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. And if he was alone in the principal's office, you know, nobody was there. I don't know. So no one had any clue where these guys were headed. And it wasn't until hours later that passersby found James, the principal, alone in the woods along a dirt road. He was alive, but he was handcuffed to a tree with duct tape over his mouth so that he couldn't call for help.
Em Schulz: Hmm...
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately, Clarence and six-year-old Michael were long gone. So with a population of fewer than 10,000 people at Choctaw was not used to violent crime, much less a, you know, double kidnapping at gunpoint in broad daylight, the Choctaw authorities immediately involved the FBI. And according to the FBI, the majority of child abduction cases in the US involve a family member as an abductor. So this is like a perfect example of that. I think, um, a lot of times we see also that it's often custody-related as well. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So we have Clarence Hughes taking Michael, and that made sense for a minute until they realized Clarence Hughes was not Michael's real father.
Em Schulz: Gasp. No.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: First plot twist. And there were so many.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, did they go to the... Did, did the cops like go to the kid's dad's work and he was just sitting there at his computer like, "I didn't fucking do anything. What are you talking about?"
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my gosh. No. So the way that we know Clarence was not actually the father is that it had, it had actually recently been decided in court during a bitter custody battle between Clarence...
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: And the state. So Michael had been removed from Clarence's home four years prior following the death of Clarence's wife, or Michael's mother, Tonya Hughes. And after Tonya died, the state took Michael away from Clarence.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And when he went to court to try and win Michael back, they did a DNA test and realized he was not technically the biological father.
Em Schulz: That's so sad though. I mean, so far the... My understanding is like this guy really loved the kid anyway despite not having a blood connection to him. Is that what it sounds like?
Christine Schiefer: Nope. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. Okay. Never mind.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, unfortunately.
Em Schulz: It sounded, it sounded it... It sounded like maybe he was playing a fatherly role up until this point...
Christine Schiefer: He...
Em Schulz: And just wanted to have the relationship with the kid and... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He likened himself to a father figure to this child. Nobody else really did.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh, but anyway, yeah. So he, he took this child, and then when they looked up who this guy was, they were like, "Shit, that's not even his 'real father.'
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, he was not in his custody. He was not related to him. Uh, people who knew Tonya at the time that she was killed, this is Michael's mother, and she had died four years earlier, people who knew Tonya and were friends with Tonya were very concerned about Clarence as a father and were like, "If Tonya's dead, we are... We do not feel good leaving Michael... "
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: "With Clarence." So Michael, for that reason, was placed in the care of foster parents, Ernest and Merle... Their, their names are the best. Ernest and Merle Bean, B-E-A-N. [laughter] I know. Think about it. Merle and Ernest Bean, like the wildest couple.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry, Scratching Fanny and her bean. Is that what... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No! No, stop. That's terrible.
Em Schulz: Sorry. That's not what I... No, it is what I meant. Like um...
Christine Schiefer: Don't bring Ernest Bean into this. Okay?
Em Schulz: The little bean, so it's nice.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so the Bean family, well, who by the way, I looked them up, uh, they have actually fostered over 80 children, more than 80 children in their...
Em Schulz: Oh, don't say that after I made fun of their name.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know. That's why I'm saying it, uh, in their time. Uh, they, they are high school sweethearts, and they had three biological kids and then ended up, um, fostering more than 80 children uh...
Em Schulz: Jesus. Well, good for them.
Christine Schiefer: Throughout the years. Yeah, pretty cool. So one of the kids that they fostered was Michael because, uh, friends and family raised concerns about Clarence, uh, raising the child. And so they removed him from the home, put him in foster care. And this was shortly after his second... After Michael's second birthday. So this was in 1990. He was two.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Clarence, like I said, fought to get Michael back for four years, but Ernest and Merle were like, "We don't think this is a good idea. Like we'd rather keep him in our home. We think he's safer here." And that is because when Michael first came to their home, he was, shall we say, a bit troubled. You know, he's two years old. Um, he's just had this very traumatic thing happened that he doesn't even understand yet. Right? His mother has been... His mother is dead. Um, his father is not trustworthy. And also, he's been taken away from his home and now he's with these strangers. But on top of that, he refused to drink anything but Pepsi out of his baby bottle and...
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: It was really hard for Ernest and Merle to like get, you know, wean him off of that because caffeine, sugar, I mean, this is, uh, biologically already something he was kind of addicted to. Uh, he would experience extreme emotional dysregulation. Uh, if he... If anyone told him no or he was upset, he would lie down and start banging his head on the floor, um, to indicate he was upset. He was very dysregulated. His physical growth was delayed for his age. He rarely spoke. So developmentally, he was a bit behind. And when he ever spoke, he talked about Clarence, his father, so to speak, at the time as "that mean man."
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so Merlin and Ernest are like, "We are not sending you back to that mean man."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right? And he did have custody, like, uh, or not custody, but visitations. And every time one of those visitations occurred, uh, this poor kid, Michael, would just be distraught. He did not wanna go near this man. He wanted nothing to do with him. And so Ernest and Merle were in that tough spot where they legally are required to let Clarence come see the kid...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Even though the kid is clearly disturbed by it and doesn't want to. And happily, you know, being under this new couple's care, Michael made tremendous strides. Um, they took away the caffeine, which really helped him health-wise. He began to settle into his new home. And he lived with the Beans for four years. And as he lived with them, he began to thrive. They had all these photos they were showing in the documentary. It was really beautiful. Um, he just thrived as a happy and bright little kid. And thankfully, at one point in court, a paternity test revealed that Clarence was not Michael's biological father, and at that point, his whole court case became moot. His parental rights were permanently revoked, and Michael was set to stay with the Beans.
Christine Schiefer: Now, the weeks following that decision, the Beans were on high alert because they were trying to go through this arduous process of adopting Michael permanently. And one day, Merle is standing outside or on the porch or somewhere where she can see out to the front road, and she sees this car drive by really slowly, this, this truck. And she calls the Department of Human Services, DHS, and says, "What kind of car does Clarence drive?" And...
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: They told her and she said, "Yeah, he's definitely lurking around our property. Like he is... Something's up." And the caseworker said, "Hey, you're just being paranoid. Don't worry about it." But Merle insisted something was wrong, and nobody really listened to her, and they said, "Oh, you know, things are fine. Just keep going with the adoption process." It was only days later that Clarence walked into Indian Meridian Elementary with a gun and abducted Michael.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So that is now caught up to the present where we are finding this principal tied, handcuffed to a tree. We don't know where Michael is.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: We don't know where Clarence is, presumably with Michael. So FBI Special Agent Joe Fitzpatrick takes on this case, and he becomes a big player in this. He's featured heavily in the documentary on Netflix which is called The Girl in the Picture, and it is a doozy of a documentary. It's almost two hours long. It is... I mean, it's like watching a fucking M. Night Shyamalan film. Like, you're like, "What?"
Em Schulz: Oh, dang.
Christine Schiefer: You know, everything is fucking plot twist upside-down. Like I'm rewinding like, "Did I hear that right?" I mean, it is one of those stories. I cannot believe I didn't know more about this before. So anyway, FBI agent Joe Fitzpatrick, he takes the case, and as he's looking over what they knew about Clarence and Michael, he goes, "Uh-oh. We were all hoping that Em's original suspicion was, was right that maybe this guy just loves his kid so much that he went and picked him up." But as he's looking through all the records and looking up, looking into this Clarence guy, he gets a sinking feeling that Michael is in grave danger.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: So Joe consults behavioral science experts who say, "It's not great news, but you probably have about a week before Clarence 'gets tired' of Michael and kills him."
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But as it turns out, Clarence was not even this man's real name. It turns out Clarence...
Em Schulz: Damn!
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's just like... I hope everyone can keep up here. It's just batshit. So Clarence was just an alias. And, uh, investigators discovered that this man had many a aliases, but his original birth name was Franklin Delano Floyd. Likewise...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I think... I don't know, I feel like I've heard that name before.
Christine Schiefer: Um, there was another Floyd. Oh, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Is that who you're thinking of?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Yeah. This one they pronounced Delano. And I know that like Franklin Delano...
Em Schulz: Roosevelt.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think that's right. Right? FDR?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh, but that... It's very trippy 'cause it's like Franklin Delano, not Franklin... Anyway, that's how they pronounce it at least, so I'm just gonna go with that.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um, but yes, he's not the esteemed president, former president. He is this motherfucker. [laughter] So it turns out that's his real birth name. Um, but this is not the first time he's used an alias, nor is it the first time he has abducted a child.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It turns out that in 1962, and I just wanna warn everyone, this case has probably every possible trigger/upsetting thing aside from animal cruelty. I think that's the only thing that does not happen in this case. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's nice.
Christine Schiefer: So that's at least so far until part two, I'll, I'll let you know. But so far...
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Um, as far as I can tell, that's the only thing kind of missing from this story, which is terrible. So in 1962, he had been imprisoned for the kidnapping and rape of a four-year-old girl.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Yeah. And when he was sent to prison, he managed to escape. And he was not caught again until he was robbing a bank and was arrested for that, and he was imprisoned until 1972. It is still so shocking to me that someone who rapes a four-year-old girl does not have to stay in prison for long...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Very long, but, um, here we are.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Franklin was arrested again just one year later for sexual assault, and a friend posted his bail, and Franklin skipped town before his court hearing, and he had been a federal fugitive ever since. And he had been living under assumed names, different aliases including Clarence Hughes, which is the one he was using now, Trenton Davis and Warren Marshall. So on top of all of his other crimes, investigators had begun to suspect that maybe he had something to do with the death of his wife four years earlier, Tonya Hughes. And this would've been the mother...
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: Of Michael, the little boy.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So now we're jumping back in time to the time that Tonya was killed which was April, 1990. A few men were driving late at night in Oklahoma City when they pull over to investigate some debris along the side of the road. And it's there that they find the body of 20-year-old Tonya Hughes. She is barely alive, but she is technically alive. She's unconscious. She has seemingly been struck by a vehicle.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And...
Em Schulz: And the fact that they called it debris...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That they thought they saw debris.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was almost like she was tossed there like trash. It's, it's, it's very dark, uh, very dark storyline. So they find 20-year-old Tonya. She seems to have been either struck by a vehicle or just gravely injured. She's admitted to the ICU, the intensive care unit, with an internal head injury which was causing swelling in her brain. And when her husband arrived, this is Clarence, he told them that his name was Clarence Hughes and that Tonya was a dancer at a club in Tulsa. So Tonya's co-worker and her best friend, Karen Parsley, visited Tonya in the ICU. And I know... Are you laughing at Karen Parsley? Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: All these names feel made-up.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry. It feels like, like she's like the, the next-door neighbor at, in VeggieTales or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. And the fact that they're like exotic dancers makes it so much better. Like, "I'm Karen Parsley," you know? Uh...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I was not trying to laugh. Sorry, just really caught me off-guard.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, here... Here's the game. Your stripper name is your favorite VeggieTales character combined with the street you grew up on. [laughter] Uh, anyway, so Tonya's co-worker and her best friend was named Karen Parsley. And Karen visited Tonya... By the way, I wanna be clear, Tonya at this point was 20 years old when she, when she was brought into the ICU.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: She's very young.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So her best friend Karen comes in and conveniently, thankfully, Clarence was away at this point. He's not at the hospital. And when Karen talks to the nurses, they expressed concern that they felt like something was wrong with Clarence, with this situation, with Tonya's home life.
Em Schulz: The vibe is off.
Christine Schiefer: The vibe is off. Clarence is really fishy. The, the injury she had didn't quite match to getting hit by a car. It, it just all seemed a little shady. And they said, you know, Clarence is significantly older than Tonya and he behaves very controlling and very strangely. And they didn't have any real evidence, but they did suspect that he somehow was involved in Tonya's accident. So this is more like the nurses are gossiping about this because they don't... They just have a bad feeling, but they don't know what to do about it.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And Karen hears this and she's like, "Yeah, I think you guys are right. Because I also... I'm not a big fan of Clarence." So Karen had met Tonya in 1989 at Passions, which is the club where they worked, and they were the youngest dancers there, so they really connected very quickly. They gravitated toward each other. Karen was a college student and Tonya was an avid reader and was always reading about some new field or some new topic. And so the two of them became fast friends and just, I don't know, loved to spend time together. Karen also loved Tonya's little son, Michael, and she said he was a smiley, happy baby. He looked at Tonya with total adoration, and Tonya was the best mother, and Michael was her whole world. But there was a little problem which is Clarence.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Tonya would often show up to work with bruises all over her body, bad bruises, and Karen knew Michael was abusing her, but Tonya always denied it and, you know, Karen also being very young, felt helpless and did not know how to intervene.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And Tonya refused to leave Clarence because she knew she couldn't take Michael with her. Clarence would never let her take Michael, and Michael was never out of Clarence's sight. And so it basically made it impossible for her to find an escape route. And the way Karen described it...
Em Schulz: That's awful.
Christine Schiefer: Is that Clarence kept Baby Michael under lock and key, like he wasn't... She wasn't... She one time offered, "Hey, why don't we take him to the zoo?" And Tonya was like, "No, no, no, no, that can't happen. Like we can't take him anywhere.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No.
Em Schulz: Wow. Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So one day, Tonya confided in Karen that Clarence had recently taken out a large life insurance policy on her, and she was pretty convinced he was preparing to murder her, but she wouldn't live without Michael. So when Karen found out that Tonya was involved in a mysterious hit-and-run, she suspected probably Clarence was involved. But, unfortunately, like the nurses, she didn't have any evidence. And so that's all she could do is just believe what she believed and wasn't able to prove it to anyone.
Em Schulz: Which is so wild when... I mean, hopefully, not a lot of people have to experience this, but you know when you're dating... When someone... When your friend is dating someone who is not good news...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And you're just like, "Oh, I smell trouble and I just hope I'm wrong."
Christine Schiefer: You hope you're wrong.
Em Schulz: "Please let me be wrong."
Christine Schiefer: You so hope you're wrong. Yeah, 100%. That's what it was. And Tonya was so beloved at work. Um, the dancers all loved her. They decided to uh, make the arrangements for Tonya's funeral and gravestone because they felt like Clarence wasn't gonna do anything to honor her memory. And so basically, they got together, collected money amongst themselves, these are, you know, the other dancers at the club, and they put up a gravestone. But they also decided they want to find Tonya's family. You know, they wanna tell her parents what has happened. They don't know who her mom is, but they wanna find her and let her know. And they just felt like Clarence isn't gonna tell her family that she's passed away, so they decided to find her mother. So to clarify, if it's not clear by now, um, she... Tonya had passed away from her injuries in the ICU, so...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So she never regained consciousness and she unfortunately passed away. And so because her friends were so devastated and did not believe that Clarence would reach out to her family, they decided they would track down her family for her. So Karen and the other women do managed to track down Tonya's mother, and they call her to break this tragic news, and the mother says, "What are you talking about? My daughter Tonya Hughes died 20 years ago when she was only 18 months old."
Em Schulz: Gasp. What?
Christine Schiefer: So it was then that Karen realized Tonya Hughes was not in fact Tonya Hughes.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: So Tonya's friends were at a complete loss. They're like, "Wait, so clearly this is a fake name, or she took this name from somewhere," and they didn't know what to do, so they put Tonya on her gravestone and that, that... They just left it at that, and then they wrote, "I'll always be with you." So while Tonya's friends made funeral arrangements, Clarence quickly tried to collect the payout from Tonya's life insurance policy because...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Of course, he did. But the Social Security number he provided for himself was not for Clarence; it belonged to as we know now, Franklin Floyd.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Meanwhile, hospital staff had come to Karen with concerns about Michael saying, "Hey, we've seen her son Michael a few times and he's not speaking, he's non-verbal, he's extremely withdrawn, he's very disturbed," and Karen said, "Oh, no, that's not the Michael I know. Michael's usually very bubbly, very happy, very talkative, and this is a complete change in behavior for him."
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: So the hospital recommends that he's taken away from Clarence's care, thankfully. So he's removed from, I guess, Franklin's care, uh, and that is where this four-year custody battle began where he moves...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: To the Beans, and then there's this whole rigamarole, and Clarence isn't technically his father, and uh, then he goes and abducts him from the elementary school.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So that's where we are now. This abduction of Michael was national news in 1994. There were photos of Michael and Tonya in newspapers, magazines, primetime TV, everywhere. This was huge news. And Franklin, as police now knew, was an experienced and skilled fugitive. He's used to being on the run. It'll be tough to catch up to him. He's armed, he's dangerous, and he's hurt people before. So he's not gonna be easy to find. So investigators hope that if enough people saw pictures of Michael on TV and magazines that maybe they would be able to spot him out in public, wherever he was.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But instead, the FBI received a call about someone recognizing Tonya on TV. A woman named Jenny Fisher called the FBI, totally out of sorts, and says, "I don't know who Tonya Hughes is, but the woman in the photo on the news, Michael's mother, is my high school best friend, Sharon Warren."
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. And...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Police are like, "What?" So now we know that this is not Tonya like her friends sort of, sort of got the hint that...
Em Schulz: Figured out, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This is not Tonya, but now they have a totally new name, Sharon Warren. And Jenny says, "Yeah, we went to school together in Forest Park, Georgia," and Jenny and Sharon met at student council camp in 1984. She said Sharon was extremely smart. She was in the gifted program, student council, ROTC, and science club. Her dream...
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Get this, her dream was to become an aerospace engineer. That's what she...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Aspired to. She was also very beautiful. You know, she said that the day she walked into high school, everybody kind of did the turn like, "Who's that?" you know.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, she was very popular, but Sharon's friends said she always went for the underdogs. And so her friend group, which I think is so sweet, were all the outcasts like anybody gay...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's fun.
Christine Schiefer: Anybody who, you know, openly gay, anybody who um, felt like kind of different or looked different. She had this kind of ragtag group of friends, and a lot of them were interviewed for the documentary, I thought it was really sweet. Um, but yeah, so she, she kind of hung with those people instead. According to Jenny they were the outcasts, um, and Sharon was this sort of light who came into their lives and always made them feel seen and understood loved. Um, she, she gave a lot of support to these folks and then later when they kind of found out more about her, it was extra heartbreaking because it was like she was not getting that love and support for herself, but she was giving it to all her friends. So she was just one of those people that really, um, that really touch people's lives. Her friend, Lynn Rene Thornton said that she was what made his years in high school good. He said people would call him the F slur and like all this things and he said she would write him notes and like just was always there to spend time with him, hang out with him, never made him feel different. But Sharon herself struggled outside of school. She lived alone with her father Warren, and her friends thought her father was very weird and strict and strange. And she grew up in this like very strict household where if her friend Jenny, for example, wanted to call, she would say, "You have to schedule your calls to me. You, you... "
Em Schulz: Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: "You can't call me when my, when my father's home. Either I call you or we have to schedule it." She was also...
Em Schulz: Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Very big yikes. She was also responsible for cooking him dinner every single night and, yeah, when, when she hung out with friends, he would come and meet the parents of the friends and... For example, when he first met Jenny's family, he went right up to the parents and asked for a loan. Like he's one of those guys. And the parents were like, "You're not allowed to hang out with this family anymore. Like she can come here... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "But like you're not going to their house." So Jenny's father was like, "This guy's trouble." Uh, but one night when her father was out of town, Jenny convinced her mother to let her go to Sharon's house and spend the night for a sleepover.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This part's rough, folks. So that night while Jenny and Sharon are changing into their pyjamas, they're probably 15, I don't know, in high school, Warren, her father, Sharon's father, barges into the room with a gun, points it at both girls, he says, "What are you doing... What the fuck are you doing?" They're like, "We're having this sleepover." He says... He kind of chuckles and he says, "I'll be right back."
Em Schulz: Gasp. No, you won't.
Christine Schiefer: And Sharon turns to Jenny and kinda laughs and says, "Oh, this is just Daddy. He's just weird like this. Like he's just joking around. He's just being silly." And unfortunately, Warren does come back and he tells, he tells Jenny to lay down on the ground and put a pillow over her head. He then rapes Sharon in front of Jenny, and they just do not speak. They just go to bed. Uh, he's still holding this gun. And in the morning, Sharon just gives Jenny a hug and said, "Daddy's just like that, I'm okay, you're okay, just let it go," and ask her not to speak about it. So Jenny is fucking terrified, traumatized, does not know what to do. She didn't tell anyone uh, what had happened. She just didn't know how to even process it. And she later said in an interview, "It was the most painful thing in my life. It changed how I viewed the world. It changed everything about me."
Em Schulz: Yeah. You're entire... I feel like your brain chemistry is...
Christine Schiefer: Especially as a child, you know.
Em Schulz: Fucked, actually. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: So in 1986, Sharon receives a full ride scholarship to Georgia Tech. This is her dream school. She got into the aerospace engineer department with a full ride. This is like...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Ultimate top dream for her. She was over the moon, ecstatic, and her friends were thrilled. Her father even took out an ad in the school yearbook and put like a full page saying, you know, "Georgia Tech, here I come on full ride," like to, to show off. The one thing that...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Her friends thought was a little strange is most parents use baby photos in these kind of ads and he picked kind of sultry, like almost sexy photo of her.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so all the parent... Or all the other kids felt a little bit off-put by that. But Sharon didn't care at all. She was just so ecstatic that she would be going to her dream school to study her dream field. But one day, Jenny gets a call, and Sharon is in absolute hysterics and tells her, "I'm pregnant." The father was her high school boyfriend, and Sharon's father, when he finds this out, is absolutely beside himself furious and tells her, "You're not going to college anymore. I'm... You're not going."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And her friends said, "You have to go. This is like your only giant dream in life. Like this is your way out." And she said, "I can't. Someone has to take care of Daddy and it's me. I'm gonna stay here and do that." She tells her friends she's moving to Arizona, giving up on Georgia Tech. She's giving... She's moving to Arizona and she's going to have her baby there and put it up for adoption because she was not allowed to keep it. So...
Em Schulz: Woah.
Christine Schiefer: Sharon and Warren pack up and leave town, and Jenny never saw her best friend again until she's watching the news years later and says, "I don't know who Tonya is, but that's Sharon, my best friend."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So Jenny sits down with the FBI in 1994 after recognizing her picture on TV and investigators say, "Okay, here's a picture of Sharon with her husband, Franklin, uh, or some people know him as Clarence," and Jenny looks at the photo and says, "That's not Sharon's husband. That's Sharon's father."
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry I'm smiling. I just never get to, get the full, full gasp out of Em. So it's very uh, it's a very fulfilling feeling to, to shock you in that way. Is that not... You should have heard last night watching this, waking Blaise up going, "What the fuck?" every five seconds.
Em Schulz: That's so, I mean, just sick. I mean, like, I don't know, just, I don't know what to say.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I have a secret. It gets even wilder. It seems like it can't, but it does.
Em Schulz: How? How?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. Okay.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Woah. I'm sorry. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's, it's...
Em Schulz: My, my brain is...
Christine Schiefer: It's shocking. It's like short-wiring... It like short-wires your... Short-circuits your brain. It's like, "What?" So Jenny's like, "That's who I know as Sharon's father." They say, "No, no, no, this is her husband." And [1:46:30.0] ____.
Em Schulz: And she goes... Yeah, exactly. She goes, "I've got stories that prove that [1:46:35.4] ____."
Christine Schiefer: Yes, precisely, precisely. So it's, it is her father and her husband. So they discover, the FBI quickly discovers that Sharon and Franklin had changed their names in 1989, a year before Sharon's death, and what they did was they took Tonya and Clarence from tombstones from Alabama, and that's why she had found the, the grave of that baby, that 18-month-old baby that the woman had lost and just took that name.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it wasn't even... Like she had taken that name on as her own from a gravestone.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So they got married under these false names in New Orleans, and from then on, everyone who met them knew them as Clarence and Tonya Hughes, not father and daughter, but husband and wife. So now investigators know who Sharon was before she became Tonya, but there are still major pieces, of course, missing to the story like, okay, well, then where were Franklin and Sharon between the time they left Georgia? Well, Sharon was pregnant and arrived in Tulsa. Because Michael was her second child. Michael was not the child she was pregnant with. The timeline did not add up. So...
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: He... Michael was her second child that she had that... Who was only two years old at this point. Uh, but the first child she had been pregnant with must be somewhere else because, was... The child was not living with them.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So now they're thinking, "Shit. Where's the other child? Did they really go to Arizona to give the baby up for adoption like Sharon had told her friends?" And Special Agent Joe said that the best way to predict what a fugitive will do next is to look at what they've done before because humans are creatures of habit, they will repeat their behaviors and patterns. And he decided if he could understand Franklin's behavior and patterns and talk to people who knew Sharon and Franklin during those missing years, he would have a better chance of finding Franklin and of course little Michael before it was too late. But we'll have to find out in part two.
Em Schulz: Girl, no, please don't do that to me.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry, it has to be this way.
Em Schulz: Christine, that was...
Christine Schiefer: Is that not the wildest ride you've ever been on? I mean, what is wrong with people?
Em Schulz: I mean, it's the sickest ride. It's like a...
Christine Schiefer: It's so, so fucked up.
Em Schulz: I don't want people to think that my like, my nervous smiling is me like giddy for this...
Christine Schiefer: We're not...
Em Schulz: Information. I... This is... I'm just... I...
Christine Schiefer: It's shocking.
Em Schulz: Sometimes I don't think anything could blow my mind, and then you say something like that whole story and I go, "Oh, my God. Wow, that's insane."
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Especially because we've covered hundreds of cases, so it's like at this point you think you've heard it all, or like you'd think nothing can surprise you anymore, but then... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: It's a doozy.
Em Schulz: If I were a, an alcohol drinker, I would be pouring myself a stiff one right now. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you deserve it. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh, I have found um, people I'm... Uh, going off of previous comments from previous moments like this, but I have a new um, fun little recipe for people to try, uh, speaking of drinks.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, okay.
Em Schulz: I found, I found a mocktail which that, I feel like that uh, a nice sort of way to end this than this horrible mystery you've let us hang on.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, I love that. Yeah, we can do a new ending bit.
Em Schulz: Uh... Well, uh, I, I don't know if I'll have one every time, but I've been drinking this one for the last couple weeks now and I'm a fan, big fan. Uh, so if you need a fun summer mocktail. 'Cause you know I was telling everyone it's... Everything's like half-lime and lemon juice and that's like... And then the, like fake alcohol that people put in because I think that's what I want in a mocktail is like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. So here's what you do, you're gonna go to Trader Joe's. If you don't have a Trader Joe's near you, okay...
Christine Schiefer: Sucks for you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But if you have a Trader Joe's near you, um, they are currently...
Christine Schiefer: I have Trader Joe's.
Em Schulz: They're currently selling um, I guess because it's summer, a watermelon soda which is literally... Oh, my God.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Em's thumbs-up, thumbs-down emoji just popped up. No, I love that. They're... It's really good.
Em Schulz: Uh...
Christine Schiefer: I just bought that recently too.
Em Schulz: It's a watermelon... So it's literally just like blended watermelon with seltzer in it. It's...
Christine Schiefer: So good. It's like sparkling watermelon.
Em Schulz: Yeah, watermelon juice. And so you get that. They have um... And then also what Allison does because she happens to have it in her own collection at this point, some cucumber bitters...
Em Schulz: Gasp. And then on top of that, Trader Joe's has this other thing, it's at the end of... It's by the checkout area where they have like those stacks of juices on the wall.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: They have a drink... I know I'm eating my own words here, but I will say there's very minimal lime in it. Because I know I was saying, "I hate lime, I hate lime." This... It doesn't really like taste like lime. I'm more in it for the fact that it's jalapeno lime juice and it just gives a...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Spice to it. Um, I don't really taste any lime to it. If anything, I just taste jalapeno. But it's like a spicy watermelon cucumber situation.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. That sounds so good. And then like you can always add vodka to it if you're in a drinking mood.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that sounds delicious.
Em Schulz: It's a great... With a little wedge of watermelon? Are you kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: How many part... How many parts are we... We're talking... You mix them in half and half?
Em Schulz: I'm imagining it's mainly water... I don't... Allison is... I'm very um...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Spoiled and Allison makes it for me um, because she's the bartender between the two of us. I'm imagining it's mainly the soda and then maybe like a third jalapeno lime juice and then...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: However many cucumber bitters you want. But um, yeah, it's very yummy. It's very summer-y and then...
Christine Schiefer: I kind of like cucumber bitters. I don't even know where to find that. That sounds delicious.
Em Schulz: Uh, I, I think I'm slowly uh... I... Every time I like pass like a gourmet alcohol store, they always have like fun flavors for bitters, and I think I'm slowly buying every flavor for Allison.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you are? That's fun. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, uh... But anyway, people seem to really like that salami and cheese pepper thing I got from Trader Joe's last time.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And we were there literally to buy that, and then we saw this jalapeno lime juice and I was like, "I bet we could come up with something for that." So...
Christine Schiefer: That sounds delicious.
Em Schulz: If anyone... They're, they also pair very well together if you would like to have your little pepper situation and drink...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God, they've got celery bitters on, on this website.
Em Schulz: I think I've said this before, but, you know, celery soda... Have I told you about celery soda?
Christine Schiefer: Um, maybe. I don't think so.
Em Schulz: There's... It's a Dr. Brown's soda, um, but it's, it's actually spelled on the soda bottle, Cel-Ray, I don't know why, but it's celery soda.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, and I guess back... In the '40s, there was, I guess they were low on celery or something, I don't know, but uh, Jewish delis started selling celery soda with your sandwich, so that way you would get like a bit of celery with your sandwich without them having [1:53:21.4] ____ celery.
Christine Schiefer: What? That's so fun.
Em Schulz: It actually tastes like celery. It's really not actually that bad of a soda.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds kinda good.
Em Schulz: It's actually good. Um, anyway, fun fact for you.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, that was great. Thank you for pulling us out of the darkness. That was nice. Um...
Em Schulz: I love it.
Christine Schiefer: It's like our own, very own after dark uh, which we're also gonna do. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Which you can go listen to. Which, if you're a member of Patreon, you can now follow us over there and we will continue to talk about things probably like celery soda and my favorite watermelon drinks.
Christine Schiefer: I, I do have some like ghost... Well, actually, I have some... I feel like we're trying to make the after dark more, more similar to the podcast because I feel like people... I don't know. We want...
Em Schulz: [1:54:01.1] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we want it to be something people would be like, "Oh, I'm so curious." So I think I might tell... I don't know, I have some ghostly updates that I might tell on Patreon.
Em Schulz: Oh, fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so if anyone wants to hear those updates, uh, you can feel free to head over to Patreon.com/atwwdpodcast.
Em Schulz: Wee! And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
Christine Schiefer: Clink.