[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Well... [laughter] Well, I've done a silly thing, and I have decided we're doing... I flipped the episodes. So the episode that y'all will hear this week was recorded after the one that you'll hear...
Em Schulz: Next week.
Christine Schiefer: Next week because my brain, my brain... Seriously, last night, Em was like short-circuiting because I was like trying to...
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: Because I'm trying to, like, figure out how to do this, and it's like a very simple thing, and I just made it very complicated.
Em Schulz: Hang on. It says I might not be recording through my mic. See, we're all struggling today. Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: It's a rough day, friends. Okay. Should we pause?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No. Did that fix it?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Oh, that's so much better. But wait, is mine, right?
Em Schulz: Yours is fine. Yours is fine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, man... Yeah, we're using a new recording software, which is kind of funny because in the next episode, you'll hear us complain about the struggles we're having with that. It's fine. We'll figure it out. Okay.
Em Schulz: So, okay, just to give you, like a calendar, a timeline of how this goes, is that Christine and I recorded this episode, and next week's episode within the same 24-hour period.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Good point.
Em Schulz: And this one we recorded after the last one. So what you're gonna hear next week is us being incredibly frazzled.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I sound, like, off my rocker next week, but I promise, now that you're hearing me, I survived it.
Em Schulz: And the one you're hearing now is us still frazzled, but I think half figured out, but not really.
Christine Schiefer: I almost feel like yesterday's vent session, which, again, y'all will not hear till next week, helped me kind of process it and come back to reality. So... And Eva's probably like, "What are you talking about?" because she was not on the recording yesterday and missed my mental breakdown, sort of. Everyone's like, probably gonna expect, like, the apocalypse in next week's episode. It's really not that crazy.
Em Schulz: No. It's us just being a usual amount of spiraling. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's also me, just like, at no shame begging everyone to buy tickets for the live show for both Beach Too Sandy and And That's Why We Drink in an effort to make me feel better. And I do, I do recognize that sounds really shitty, and I didn't mean it to be shitty. I just am like, can we please hang out.
Em Schulz: You'll hear it next week, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just come hang out with me please, please, somebody. Anyway, Em, do you like my shirt?
Em Schulz: You know I love your shirt. That's one of my... I know a Target purchase when I see it. Was that it?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yes, you do. Also, this is my cover photo for six years on Facebook. It's Frog and Toad with the words, "We must stop eating cried Toad as he ate another." And when I was in college, I was like, "This really represents me and my whole deal." So I made it my cover photo for probably half a decade at least.
Em Schulz: And your personality probably.
Christine Schiefer: My... Oh, it was already my personality. I just suddenly had a label to it. And so I saw this at Target with Leona, and I just gasped.
Em Schulz: As... As someone who has seen you perform that exact bit with wine...
Christine Schiefer: "I must stop."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And everyone's like, "Yes, you must." And I'm like, "Mm-hmm." Anyway.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, I love that shirt. I actually... The only reason I know it's a Target purchase is because when I was last at Target, I went... And then I almost... I almost bought it.
Christine Schiefer: Every millennial probably did the same sound.
Em Schulz: Yeah, probably.
Christine Schiefer: When they passed that shirt.
Em Schulz: And every Gen Z was like, "Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, Em, hi. I'm so glad to see you again. We never record day... Day after day, so this is a delightful experience. How are you doing?
Em Schulz: Umm... I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, by the way, folks, in the next episode, you'll hear Em say, "This is probably my last episode recorded in the Troll Hole," and like, now it's the next day and we're doing it again.
Em Schulz: Well, it worked out because next week now will be the last time people see me at the Troll Hole.
Christine Schiefer: That is honestly, actually, very weird how that worked. Yes, inadvertently, you're so right.
Em Schulz: Umm, so I'm... I... Think I'm about to hit a stage where you are currently at, where you're kind of spiraling, and not just because of work, but because it will be... This... Like, this is our kind of, like, you'll hear about it all next week, folks. But we're kind in a crunch mode for the podcast right now with, like, getting ready for the show coming up, and all stuff like that. So that stresses me out. But the thing that I'm most stressed about, which I've already kind of talked about more or less is just the house. I'm just, man, I... Everyone tells you that it's stressful, and I believed it. It's not like I thought I was immune to that, but I went in thinking, "Okay, I'm prepared for it to be frustrating," and now I'm at the frustrating part, and I'm like, "Okay, I knew this was gonna happen, but I'm still mad about it." So.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. I think everyone can relate to that. 'Cause it's like, "Oh, they tell you to have a kid, or having a kid is very overwhelming," and you're like, "Yeah, I know. Like, I know it's gonna be overwhelming," but you can't really understand it until you're in it. Right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it's just like, how would you even comprehend that?
Em Schulz: Well, it's more... I don't know what people meant by it's frustrating. I don't know if like everyone's talking about a different category. And we just all kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sure there's many. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But the one for me is, like, just... I went to lunch with somebody yesterday, and they were like, "Oh, like, are you having fun? You know, getting the house together?" Which, like, this is clearly not a homeowner who said that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say. And, well, this is also someone who's not met you very long, because you're like, "I hate when people ask me that question."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. And, oh, yeah, they're learning very quickly that that's...
Christine Schiefer: You gave them the Leona like scowl, and they were like, "Cool, I'll reframe the question." Got it. I have upset you.
Em Schulz: I think they... [laughter] I think they learned very quickly that I'm... I'm gonna give them a direct answer, and maybe it's not the one they were expecting. 'Cause I immediately went, "No."
Christine Schiefer: No, certainly not.
Em Schulz: Well, the part that's frustrating me currently, it's not even, like, getting the house or... I am wildly stressed about having to figure out how to downsize and like find spots for everything and all the stuff that goes into buying furniture and the things you're not thinking you'll need. But currently, I feel the most pressure about disappointing Allison because we're, like, in the mode right before we're about to move in. And so we're, both, like, kind of selecting responsibilities for each other, and she's, like, Miss Type A loves her Excel sheets and her planners, and she's going to get it done in five minutes, and it's going to take me, like, three weeks, and I'm already stressed about her being stressed about whether or not I'll get it done in time. And so I'm just kind of mid-panic about making sure that I get all my stuff done, and I don't feel competent enough to be relied upon like that. But I'm gonna have to figure it out. Uh, so that's what's stressing me out.
Christine Schiefer: My gut reaction, which is probably not helpful at all, but this is just what sometimes my mom tells me, and it does seem to calm me down, is like... And you've said it to me before, too, is, it'll get done. Like, whether you're stressed or not or whether you're like...
Em Schulz: Oh I know that.
Christine Schiefer: You're like feeling like incompetent or whatever, in a few months, you'll be like, "Okay, that's over," and you'll be on to the next thing.
Em Schulz: I know it'll get done. That's, that's exactly how I face just about anything.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that's how we both face any sort of thing for the tour. Like, well, it'll happen. Whether we...
Em Schulz: It'll... It'll happen.
Christine Schiefer: Try [0:07:39.8] ____ 100% or 800%.
Em Schulz: I just want to do it with as little, umm, like, causing frustration between me and Allison, which, like, that's... I don't want it to sound like that's something that happens all the time. I just...
Christine Schiefer: No, but, I mean, any big life change...
Em Schulz: I don't want to give her any more...
Christine Schiefer: Puts pressure on a relationship. You're doing a new task together. It's hard.
Em Schulz: Yes. I don't wanna... I don't wanna give her any more reason to be as stressed as she probably is about moving in too. I don't want her to also have to think about, like, I don't know, I struggle with, or I used to definitely struggle with, like, weaponized incompetence and not being able to like do things for myself, and I don't want her to feel like I can't be dependable.
Christine Schiefer: Is this your public plea, so that when she hears the episode, she's like, "Well, I guess I can't accuse you of that."
Em Schulz: No. We... I've... I've... Her and I have talked about this. Can you imagine if this is the first time that she's hearing about it?
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "Wow, you apologize to millions of people, just not to me." Got it, okay, cool.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. I haven't... I have... We haven't had like any issues with that in a long time. It's just in moments like this where there's a new task I'm responsible for, I just... I remember that I've just got to get it together and just figure it out, and it just... It just stresses me out on top of the other stuff I'm already stressed out about. So I don't know, I just want her to have an enjoyable first move into her first house, and I don't want my stuff to get in the way of her getting to celebrate a milestone.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think you'll get in the way. I feel like it's a big deal for each person individually on top of being a big deal as a couple. I feel like each person's going to have that experience separately, too. She'll love it. She'll have a good time.
Em Schulz: She might... I hope. We'll see. It's kind of just like when I was telling you last time, uh, where there's just all these things that no one ever fucking taught you. And maybe they did back in the day, and now it's just like scrapped from education or something.
Christine Schiefer: But nobody knows. Like, nobody knows. That's the thing that we learned. Did people write to you and be like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A lot of people were like, nobody knows how to call the fucking city. But then my mom is like, "What does that even mean?" And I'm like, "Well, I don't know."
Em Schulz: It's multiple tasks like that that Allison has put in front of me where I'm like, "Oh, shit. I have to figure out how to call this." And I also, I want to look like I'm not relying on her to do it, so it is up to me to figure it out because I don't want to look like I'm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Wait till you have a kid. And then they're like, "Oh, where does she go to the dentist?" And I'm like, "The dentist? She's supposed to go to the dentist?"
Em Schulz: Does she, does she, does she have all of her teeth [0:10:07.8] ____ Ginsy?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, "Well, you're supposed to go to the dentist before you have your teeth." I'm like, "Fuck."
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Yeah, it's... It's crazy. There's like everything. They're like, "Oh, has she done this yet? Has she joined this group yet? Has she learned how to do this yet?" I'm like, "Aahh, it really... It's... It's, uh... I'm not trying to say, oh, there's... There's... Well, you'll probably face... " Well, it probably... It never ends, I think. And I... And I only say this because I feel like every grown-up, like, I know it's very isolating the position you're in right now. And I don't know if this is helpful at all, but I feel like everyone listening is like, oh, been there. Like, whether it's like going to college for the first time and living on your own or moving in with someone or buying a house or having a child or getting a dog or a turtle. I don't know. I feel like there's so many things that we're all just kind of like, "How the fuck does anyone do this?" And everyone is thinking that.
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, that is helpful. I do... I know that I'm not alone, but also because nobody else I know is going through it currently, it feels very [0:11:04.7] ____...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my gosh. Literally, I texted a friend of mine today, and I said, "I have a really, like, embarrassing question." I'm actually... I like teared up writing it 'cause I was so embarrassed and, like, didn't know what to do, but I said, "I have a parenting question. It might be dumb, but I don't have any other friends with kids, but... " 'Cause they've been inviting us to trivia nights. And I'm like, "How do you do that?" And I don't mean in a bad way. I'm like, "Do you bring your kids? Like, I don't know what the protocol is. Like, do we bring the kids to the trivia at the outdoor brewery? Do we... Do you ask your parents to, or do you hire a babysitter?" And they have twins. So I'm like, "Girl, what do you do?" But they're being social and going, doing more fun things than I do. And I'm like, "How? How do you do that?" And they're both lawyers. And I'm like...
Em Schulz: I can't even process that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I'm sorry. One's a lawyer, one's a doctor. And I'm like, "How do you people do this?" And so she wrote me this really long thing and was like, "Oh, don't worry." Like, she like wrote everything out, how they pieced it together, and the struggles they're dealing with, trying to find the right babysitter and everything. So I'm like, "Okay, all right. That makes me feel better. 'Cause I went over there to play Dungeons and Dragons the other day for the first time, and Blaise and I were like, "We haven't gone on like... We haven't, like, gone out in the middle of the day just for fun, the two of us, for hours in a long time, just, like, for no good reason." Umm, and I was like, "Whoa, this is crazy." And then, like, they invited us out for, for trivia tonight. And I was like, "Oh, that would be so fun if Blaise and I could both go." But I'm like, "But how do people do it?" So I'm trying to do, like, a little, umm, recon and asking other parents, like, "How do they do it? How do you do it? Do you bring a kid, is it like a dog, where you can, like, take them and tie them up to a fence for a while? Like, do I bring a tablet?
Em Schulz: Can you leave them unattended in the house for a few hours, as long as you get back before they pee?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Do I just leave her with, like, a Kong... A Kong peanut butter ball and like, a potty pad? I don't know. So anyway, I'm just trying to figure it out, but I feel like Em, it's, it's... I like that you address this, because I think yesterday when I had that, like, kind of crazed meltdown that everyone won't hear till next week, umm, that's what it is. It's all those little things where I'm like, "Oh, great." And someone invited me to do something fun, and I've been hoping to, like, make new friends in the area, and now I can't go because I don't understand how. And now they're probably never gonna invite me again because they're like, "Oh, she doesn't want to go." So I feel like every little thing is, like, a stressor. And then Leona's like, "I want to go to a baseball game today." And I'm like, "This is untenable."
Em Schulz: "Girl, sit down."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Sit down. This is untenable. I don't even know what you're talking about. You want to go to a baseball game? It's 103 degrees out."
Em Schulz: Yeah, trust me, girl, you don't want to go.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, I didn't mean to make that about me. I, I basically am just saying...
Em Schulz: No, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Dude, I feel you so hard on that. And also, I have a house, and it's fucking falling apart, and it's so expensive to fix, and I feel like I'm also just dropping the ball left and right. So...
Em Schulz: You also have... You still have things going on in that house?
Christine Schiefer: It's always... I mean, this house is... It's a... I feel like there's always something. There's always, like, a leak. There's always, like, a... Something that needs to be fixed. There's always something that's squeaky. Like I keep WD-40 on every floor. Something's always, like, wrong, umm, but that's just being a homeowner. Hahaha. Welcome to the club.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I kind of wonder if this will be my last house and not in a way where, like, because I stay here forever. Like, I... There was some... Some actress, I think it was Jeanette McCurdy or something, where, uh, I'm on homeowner TikTok, apparently now, and she did an interview where she was like, "Yeah, everyone told me to get a house. That's how you climb the ladder. That's like, your next big step as an adult, and you get a house. But after three years, I sold it and moved back into an apartment because that was just bullshit." And I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Was that... Was that Emma... What's her name? Maybe not. There was one influencer where I was like... She was like, "What a big mistake I've made." And then like backed right out. But to be fair, they're buying, like, gigantic mansions and stuff...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: And like, have to hire, like, crazy... I don't know, amounts of staff, but... But, yeah, I, I just feel like there's always something. But I mean, it's also... It can be fun. Like, I was just thinking, oh, my God, I really hate the color I painted our downstairs, like, middle kind of extra guest room, and I was like, I want to turn this into a playroom. And so, now I'm like, Oh, that's fun. I can just kind of focus on, like, rearranging it into a playroom for Leona. Like, there's fun little projects you find, you know, throughout... Throughout the stressors of owning a house. So, you'll get there, definitely. I think, like, you're not at that... I know you said you're, like, still kind of at the overwhelm phase, but someday you'll get to the point where you're like, oh, I can make a little, like, tea nook here or something. Or, like, you know, you can do, like, the fun stuff later.
Em Schulz: Well, that's, that's what I've been saying since the beginning, which I feel bad about, because I know this is, like, again, uh, also a milestone for Allison, that it's her first house, so I don't want to just come in like a fucking Scrooge. But I have been saying, "When the first year is over, I'll be so excited to be here. It's just, like, give me a year." Which is, like, so mean to ask her when she's, like...
Christine Schiefer: That's not mean. I mean, you can't...
Em Schulz: I feel like it's mean.
Christine Schiefer: Force your feelings.
Em Schulz: But I have been saying once all the, like, the, the heavy stuff in the beginning is over, we'll both be excited to be here. Currently, I'm not, because all I see is, like, just... I hate having to... I hate learning curves, and this is just a lot of them all at once.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God, you're totally right.
Em Schulz: On top of, like, not even really wanting to move to begin with, which I discuss next week, umm, but I... It's a lot of things, and I already feel like I'm being kind of forced into the position because I didn't want to really leave the apartment to begin with. These fucking roaches just kind of kicked me out, essentially, so, umm... Yeah, just a lot of, like, ugh, adjustment feelings. And then when I figure it out, I'll be fine, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, we are all here for you in whatever way we can be.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Except I'm not gonna call the city because that's Allison's job.
Em Schulz: Hey, you tell her that, because I want... I wanna be where you are. I don't want to call the city ever again. She said something the other day. 'Cause, like, we have... Like, we are still trying to do construction, and they, they can't do construction until we move a wire. And then it's like, oh. And she was like, "Oh, well, you just call the city, and then you call the power company, and then you call this." And I was like...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no. Blah, blah, blah. I'm not listening. I'm... Seriously, I can't listen to that. That's gonna make me...
Em Schulz: I was like, "First of all, what the fuck do you mean, oh, you just do this."
Christine Schiefer: Do you know what I do?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I say, "Mom, I need you to call them," because I am very fortunate that my mom is still living, is near me, is like...
Em Schulz: Knows the numbers already.
Christine Schiefer: Okay about the phone, has done this before. I call my mom. I mean, that's literally why I moved back. I'm like, I need my mom and I need my stepdad to, like, if there's a wire hanging from the ceiling that my baby is trying to eat, I need him to fix it. Like, I don't know how to fix it myself. And Blaise and I certainly aren't gonna get on the phone. So, uh, that's why you need your mom to do it. Or Eva. Because she on... As a birthday gift, she literally gave me... And she's like, "I don't want this to sound condescending."
Em Schulz: It was so... It's like, the best birthday gift I've ever heard of.
Christine Schiefer: It's the nicest gift I've ever received that I'm so scared to use it. Like, it's the gift of making phone calls for me, if I need help with, like, a phone call or something. And I was like, this service is invaluable. Like, I don't even want to waste my.
Em Schulz: That's the most priceless gift I've ever heard.
Christine Schiefer: I don't want to waste my little tokens. And so that's what you should do.
Em Schulz: Wait, she said you got five calls or something like that?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to delegate, Em. You're just like, I'm not doing that. Or you email them. That's what I do.
Em Schulz: Well, the other things that... 'Cause we... Anyway, it's, it's, it's... We've gone probably too far over on time, but the, uh, the things that Allison has to do versus the things I have to do, like, she already took the ones that feel like, like heavy lifters. And so for me to just have to figure out how to call somebody, I don't know why it's so fucking stressful, and I don't know why I can't figure it out. And I'm sure there's just like...
Christine Schiefer: Well, welcome to my fucking life, dude. Calling people is not it. Calling... Phone calls. Not it. Nope.
Em Schulz: I hate it. I hate it.
Christine Schiefer: It's the worst. It's the worst thing that you have to do in life.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I think it's also...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding, but it's not fun.
Em Schulz: Well, it's, it's additionally difficult as someone who, like, my biggest symptom with my ADHD, which I, if someone doesn't have ADHD, I'm sure they feel like this is me, just, like, playing victim, but if you get it, you get it. But, like, I already have task paralysis on things I know how to do. So, like, the fact that there's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: The fact that, like, now there's a task of learning before doing the task.
Christine Schiefer: But why can't do those tasks? That's what I don't understand. Like, why can't you delegate them to someone else or, like, find a way to...
Em Schulz: There's really nobody else to, to have call the power company. I mean... 'Cause also, to be fair, like, Allison's doing half the work, I want to do the other half the work, but I just. I'm just overwhelmed at the thought of even starting it."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. I would just email them.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: If they don't respond, then call them. That's what I do. I email them a couple of times. If they don't respond, I'm like, fucking fine.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And you know what I did? If anyone out there has phone anxiety, I am on a, like, a longstanding mission to figure out how to deal with it. I'm so sweaty. I don't know if you can tell. My palms are like soaked in sweat.
Em Schulz: My neck is sweaty. And I don't know why.
Christine Schiefer: Because this is so stressful to me to talk about. I bought the dorkiest thing, and I love it. It's a headset. Like they wear in, like, a telemarketer thing.
Em Schulz: Shut up. Oh, that's amazing.
Christine Schiefer: No. I'm serious. And I wear it and I put it on, and I sit at my desk, like, professionally, and I'm like, this is now my job. Like, I put it, I frame it as, like...
Em Schulz: That's not stupid.
Christine Schiefer: Not like I'm just picking up the phone and calling someone. It's like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and, like, write down my tasks, make it feel as professional. Because I had jobs in offices before, as a receptionist, as an administrative assistant, I'm like, so I know I've answered phones before, but I think it was just that I had to because it was a job. So now I'm like, Oh, I just sit there and I'm like, Okay, my first task is to call this person. I dial it. I have my little thing. I'm typing. I'm like, Wow, it feels like a job instead of like just an awkward social interaction.
Em Schulz: That's not... Weird at all. That's like, literally, that's just visualization. It's just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh well, thank you. So it... Folks, those are like 20 bucks on Amazon. They're great. They're usually for truckers, I think, a lot of times, umm, 'cause they wear them while driving, but, I love it. And it's bluetooth, and it works really well. I just hang it on my desk. So that's a tip, if anyone, uh, needs one.
Em Schulz: Yeah. No that's a good one. I love a little cheat code.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna drink this. It's a seltzer. A THC seltzer, 'cause I'm feeling wild today.
Em Schulz: What? Well, what flavor is it?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's black current. Thank you for asking.
Em Schulz: Why do you drink this week? Because I somehow killed 20 minutes probably talking in circles for people who don't have a house.
Christine Schiefer: And the funniest thing is it's probably the same conversation we had next week.
Em Schulz: Whatever. Why do you drink, girl?
Christine Schiefer: Same reason man. I'm just like, everything is so hard. Everything is so hard. And we, uh, didn't get to do, 'cause I F'd up, we didn't get to do the after chat for next week's episode yet. So I think for this one, I'm going to talk about, um, what I... For... After this episode, we go on Patreon and we have like a chat afterward. I would love Em, 'cause we don't have time now, to tell you on that call on Patreon, what the after dark... What happened when I got on the phone with that psychic medium yesterday, to talk about... Because...
Em Schulz: Okay. Great. Great. Great.
Christine Schiefer: She and I had a really cool chat and I have like so many things to update you but I'll save that for Patreon 'cause we don't really have time. Everyone's like, wait, we have to listen to this instead of talking about psychic mediums?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but I'll put that on Patreon as like an after dark, umm, convo. So we'll do that after the episode. But anyway, I drink because I feel you, my friend, and uh, I, I, I empathize and I'm here for you if you need me.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Thank you. Well, I don't think you can help me with the things I need 'cause I need somebody to call. [laughter] So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, honestly, I feel like calling on someone else's... Like what if we traded calls? Like I wonder if that would be better.
Em Schulz: That'd be fun. Yeah I wonder. We could try that.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause somebody actually recommended on TikTok, 'cause I'm on... You're on homeowner TikTok, I've never been on that. Even though I own a home. I'm on fucking, uh, like, phone call panic disorder TikTok.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Which is a very real thing actually, believe it or not. And I saw somebody suggest, Why don't you call and pretend like you're your own administrative assistant or secretary or...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Partner. Or somebody? So it's almost like, you remove yourself from the situation. Like, I'm calling on behalf of so and so, uh, like, Christine Schiefer. I'm setting her appointment, whatever. I've never tried it but, uh, maybe that'll work so if we switch and I say, Hi, I'm, uh, I work for Em Schulz... Actually, I'll say 'with'. I don't want them to feel like there's an awkward power dynamic between the two of us.
Em Schulz: Aah.
Christine Schiefer: I'll say, I work alongside... [chuckle] No, no. I'll say, I work with, I work for Em Schulz. I would love to look into this power wire situation we've got going on. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: We could try switching calls. Maybe that'll feel better.
Em Schulz: I also... Yeah we could try that. I also would think, umm, another way to gamify it would be like, pretending that you're playing truth of dare with somebody and this is just your dare. Like, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, we don't have to pretend. We can dare each other.
Em Schulz: Okay, I dare you... Oh. I don't know. I don't want... I just don't wanna do it. Okay. But I'll...
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna do it either 'cause now I'm like, Well, don't make me do that. That's fucking mean.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's a really cool game.
Christine Schiefer: That's the meanest dare I ever heard.
Em Schulz: Yeah. No, I like your idea. We'll figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: God, I'm sorry people. If you don't relate to this at all, you're probably like, God, these people are insufferable. I'm sorry. We're gonna tell a story now.
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm... Mm-hmm. Also, I'm drinking an L-foggy because it's... We're going through it.
Christine Schiefer: Right. An iced or a hot?
Em Schulz: An iced. It's July.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, but like, I didn't know if they made iced, that's all.
Em Schulz: They do. Well, especially... 'Cause I got it from my, my, my place where I'm like sadly, probably their biggest regular.
Christine Schiefer: Their biggest fan.
Em Schulz: I am their biggest fan also. Umm, but I, now when I go in, they just ask me, "How many?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter] Wow! Okay. And how many did you say today?
Em Schulz: So... I usually say two because I always have to get two drinks, all the time, because one is...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Em Schulz: Gulping, one is for savoring. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you did explain that to me recently, and I thought that was so, umm, smart. I was like, that...
Em Schulz: Oh thank you.
Christine Schiefer: It does... It does make total sense to me.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm a... I'm a big gulper and then once I'm done with the first one, after I've gulped it in five seconds, I'm like, Man, I wish I really appreciated that. So that's why I got the second one. Umm, and I like the gulp. I'm not changing that. So I have to get the second one. So, anyway, I've, I've finished the gulp, now we're on our sipper.
Christine Schiefer: Beautiful.
Em Schulz: Our, our, our second mate. I don't know. Our co-pilot.
Christine Schiefer: Or... A co-pilot. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I have a story for you and I didn't start it until late.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I will tell you, that was my fault once again, because I did move our Friday recording to yesterday and said, Surprise! Now we need two stories in a row. So I also did not start mine until yesterday.
Em Schulz: Well I, I lucked out because the story that I picked didn't have too much information out there. Umm, there were a lot of YouTube videos of people ghost sitting there so if this piques your interest you can head on over to those and see what going on.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Umm, but information-wise, it was actually a pretty cut-to-the-point story, and I was like, "That's exactly what I need." So we're talking about something in your neck of the woods. Where is Newark, Ohio?
Christine Schiefer: New Jersey. Oh. How, though? I never heard of such a thing in my life. Oh, it's beautiful.
Em Schulz: Great. Where is it?
Christine Schiefer: 40 miles east of Columbus. That is a place.
Em Schulz: Mmmh, So you know her well. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That is a place. Wait, you're not talking about Serpent Mound, are you?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Or the earthworks? Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Now I'll add it to the list, though.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, please do. Uh, I don't know. No. Zanesville? No, I don't know where this is. I'm sorry. I have no idea.
Em Schulz: This is the Old Licking County Jail.
Christine Schiefer: Well, the Licking River, as you know, 'cause it's near me. That's right by us. I almost moved into a house on the Licking River, and then I realized Gio would walk into the Licking River and probably never come out because he's not the smartest cookie. Umm, but it's...
Em Schulz: I told you before. I know I've mentioned this, but my mom desperately tried to nudge Allison and I into a house that's literally on the river in Fredericksburg.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, like, constantly floods. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you can see, like, the flood lines and they're like, "No, just ignore that." It's like, well, wait a minute. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It literally goes down, like, nine flights, and only the top one can... Is actually livable, because eight floors drown.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, the videos you said were fucking amazing, [laughter] but it would definitely be more just like you bought it to do a haunted house attraction...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Rather than live there. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Umm, yeah. So this is the Old Licking County Jail, and it opened in 1889 after three other jails failed in the area.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: I guess they... I'm assuming they were, like, conditions were... Standards were changing. But also in 1889, I don't know, like, how three different jails passed... Didn't pass standards.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What does fail mean? Did they fall... Fall over? Did people just keep escaping?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know. I feel like the first jails were built in, like, the 1800s, which I know is not true, but I... I feel like those are... Those are the ones that closed because the standards were not kept up. I can't imagine...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause they didn't have toilets and shit. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Right. So how bad were the other ones for this to be the new one?
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna even know. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, this was the fourth jail to be built in the county. It was designed by JW Yost, who, if you were an architect fan in the area, apparently he is responsible for a lot of things going on in Ohio. Umm, he built, like, like, apparently, some of Ohio State University, and he... He's an architect. Umm, apparently the entire building cost $120,000 then to build.
Christine Schiefer: $120,000, then. Okay, do we know how much?
Em Schulz: In 1889.
Christine Schiefer: Should I do it real quick?
Em Schulz: Yeah. 1889 to 2024.
Christine Schiefer: To 2024.
Em Schulz: I love inflation calculators.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Okay. I guess it's not that crazy, but it feels crazy, $4.1 million.
Em Schulz: Yoo-hoo. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: That's a big fucking jump.
Em Schulz: It makes sense, though, because my next point is that... Or my next bullet point is that the jail looks very similar to, like, a castle or a mansion, like...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: A very big estate. And I don't know if that was just of the time to have kind of like, this gothic Romanesque situation.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: But I know a lot of jails that I talk about that were built, like, 100 years ago were meant to be imposing as part of your punishment, or they were supposed to look like umm, cathedrals in some way to point you to Jesus while you're locked away.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like when you talked about the St. Augustine jail, too, you said it was also meant to fit into the town. Like it was meant to look nice.
Em Schulz: That one's so interesting because that one was just like... I think it was Henry Flagler who built it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Wow.
Em Schulz: And he... It was... There was an original jail, but they thought it was too much of an eyesore to the city and pity the city, uh, that would have to look over at a jail. So he created it to look beautiful, just so he didn't have to go into his own town and be like, "Ugh." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Gross criminals. Ugh.
Em Schulz: I know. Umm, so this one also looks like a castle. Maybe it was for the same effect of, like, keeping things beautiful in the area. Umm. And at the time, this was the best version of a jail the town had ever seen, which I feel like I say that every time I talk about a jail, that it was the up-and-coming prison of its day.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: It was made with pink sandstone, which, fun fact, is known as brownstone, even though it's pink.
Christine Schiefer: Pink sandstone. Okay. Brownstone. Not quite as charming sounding.
Em Schulz: Apparently it starts pink and very quickly fades to brown. Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, it was quarried nearby, so locally handcrafted. And the front 3 levels of the building were for the sheriff, the jail matron, and their families.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And I did not know what a jail matron was. Do you know what a jail matron is?
Christine Schiefer: No, sure don't.
Em Schulz: It is the person responsible... Basically the correctional officer for a women's warden. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Correctional officer for... Oh, okay. So, okay. So, not...
Em Schulz: She just is responsible for the women's part of the prison.
Christine Schiefer: But she's called a matron instead of, like, a cool, cool title.
Em Schulz: Yeah. As jail matron.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. Okay, girl.
Em Schulz: And I wonder, like, in the 1800s, I don't even think about women having jobs. So, like, I wonder, like, what the stereotype of a jail matron was back then. Like, what'd she look like? What was her living situation?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I wonder if it's sort of like a matron at, like, a boarding house or a nun, you know, mother superior. I imagine it's probably a very, like, strict persona, right? If you're, like, the head of all the women, quote unquote criminals.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Have an iron fist.
Em Schulz: Eva says Mama Morton from Chicago. Yes, that's exactly right.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we know all about it already.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay. That actually totally solved half of my questions. Thank you, Eva.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but she, I guess, lives... She lives in one section, the sheriff lives in another section, and their families also live in the [0:32:42.4] ____.
Christine Schiefer: She has a family. She's allowed to have a family even though she works. Wow.
Em Schulz: I, I wonder... Or maybe she lives in, like, the Harry Potter closet of the sheriff and his family?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was how many cats are her family. And they're like, "Okay, you can bring us "
Em Schulz: Okay. You know, maybe because then the cats also get a job, to like, catch all the mice or something.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that's always important. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So everyone's employed all of a sudden. I love that.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: The back part of the building was the actual prison, and there were 32 jail cells. Apparently, they were usually 8 by 8 in size, which is the size of my actual troll hole. Interesting. And...
Christine Schiefer: 8 by 8. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, there was... It was meant to be able to fill up 68 prisoners at one time in the jail. But sometimes it would get up to 100. When the conditions started getting really bad, there would be six people to... Per cell. Six people per cell.
Christine Schiefer: So 6 people in the troll hole.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Crammed together. Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yuck. Umm, three floors were men, and the last four, the fourth floor, the top floor, was for women. But in the 1970s, that was when the conditions started getting really, really bad, and there was a lot of overcrowding. Probably that was the time when people had six people to a cell.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they were like, "Okay, we're moving the women out, and we're gonna send them somewhere else. And now we've got a whole fourth floor to, like, spread people out." And even that didn't work, and there was still overcrowding.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: A confirmed 21, although some say up to 22 or 26 people, died in this prison.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And that was between '89 and it closed in 1987. So 2 years away from 100 years old.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Uh, so basically, in 100 years, just over 20-25 people died.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder... It feels like a lot, but I don't know, comparatively, if that's a lot.
Em Schulz: Feels like, one person every four years, basically, or five, maybe.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause they didn't...
Em Schulz: Either five or...
Christine Schiefer: It's, like, hard 'cause they didn't really take care of people, especially criminals, as well back then. So I'm like, I don't know if that's normal or if that's, like, a shocking number. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like, what's the...
Christine Schiefer: What's the average. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What's the average people who... [laughter] How many people die in jail per year or something?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, man. It's probably too many, I'll tell you that. But, uh...
Em Schulz: I do think if it was, like, in a penitentiary, I would be impressed that only one person dies every five years.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But this is also a jail where, like, at max, like, 70 people are supposed to be there and one is dying every few years.
Christine Schiefer: That's... You know what? That's a really good point. So it feels like a lot 'cause it's, like, a smaller amount of people. It's not just, like, a massive complex. Okay, that's a really good point.
Em Schulz: 70 people. That was, like, my high school. Like, we all knew everybody. It was 70 people.
Christine Schiefer: You're all dead now. In this example.
Em Schulz: You look around and, like, one in every 5 of you is going to be dead and, and eventually so.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Boy. So, yeah, people were dying mainly early on, which I think is interesting. Most people that were dying in the prison was due to, like, intoxication. So I don't know if they were, like, overdosing or they had alcohol poisoning or.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm. But it was...
Christine Schiefer: Intoxication. Woah.
Em Schulz: Apparently, that was, like, the main cause of death. And again, it could have been, like, misrepresented, and they could have been dying from something else, and they just happened to be drunk. Like, we don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: A lot of the other deaths were suicides. Weirdly, four of the deaths... So that's, like, already a fifth of the people.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Four of the deaths were sheriffs who lived on the property, and they kept dying from heart attacks. And then... Probably 'cause you... Probably 'cause you live on site with 70 prisoners.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but, yeah, someone would have a heart attack, they'd bring in a new sheriff, he'd die of a heart attack, and it happened four times.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Isn't that weird?
Christine Schiefer: That is weird.
Em Schulz: Umm, the other deaths, uh, most of the deaths, like I said, though, were suicides, including 53-year-old Mae Vanner, who set herself on fire in the cell.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And the story goes that she was actually only put in jail for the night because she was supposed to be detoxing from either intoxication or some sort of overdose that she was on.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: So, she was just not in her right mind and wanted out. So.
Christine Schiefer: Sad.
Em Schulz: Other inmates who were incarcerated here were... And there's quite a list. Umm, one, his name is George Prokogan, and he shot one of the handlers at a brothel who was escorting him out before he was ready to leave.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Uh, another is a guy named Mark Heck, who robbed the inn he used to work at, and he killed his former coworkers in the process of the robbery.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Another one is this woman, Bernice Butler, who drunkenly shot and killed her husband, and her son witnessed it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It was like their kid, too. It wasn't like an adult.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: She didn't mean to. She was just drunk and got him. And the whole family was there and saw it happen.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, that's bad.
Em Schulz: Umm, then there's Walter Benjamin Robertson, who was also known as the proposal day murderer because he killed his fiance the same day he proposed. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Isn't that something?
Christine Schiefer: I need more of these, like, uh, serial killer names. I found someone yesterday, as I was doing research for today, that I almost did, and it was the... What did they call her? Oh, my God, Christine. I, like, say I bookmarked it, which I haven't done in a long time, as, like, a future story. Her name was the... One moment. The crystal ball murderer.
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I was like, how have I not heard of this? She's the fortune teller murderer or the crystal ball murderer. So I've bookmarked that for future, uh, story.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But, yeah. So I love these, like, these, like, wild names they give.
Em Schulz: I love a name. Not to say that, like, I think, like, serial killers are notorious enough that they deserve a name.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: But in a fun, like, hash slinging slasher from SpongeBob thing, if I had to come up with a name for myself, obviously I would take people up on that.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like they all have... Yeah, it's like they all have some sort of wild name, and some of them are just so out there. Like a crystal ball murderer. What does that even mean, you know? But, like, I'm sure the newspapers ran with it.
Em Schulz: Well, there was also Thaddeus, which I love that name.
Christine Schiefer: That's a great name.
Em Schulz: I think that's such a... Such a weird-ass name. And so old school.
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: Uh, Thaddeus and Gary Lewingdon, aka the Blood Brothers and aka the 22 caliber serial killers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. Pick a name.
Em Schulz: I know. I love how they were still, like, shopping it when they got caught.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] They're like, wait, wait. Can we please pick a name first before you arrest us?
Em Schulz: Can you... Can you white that out on the paperwork? I don't like that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like, can we write it in pencil in case we change our minds?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, the two of them, apparently they were robbers across 3 different counties and had killed ten people before they got found.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: And then there were 18-year-olds, Lewis Angel and Harmon Cordray, who went AWOL from the marines, went hitchhiking to Ohio, and then killed the guy who bummed them a ride named Alan Drake.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: There's also the milkshake murderer, which. Ring ding ding old snow. That's what we drink.
Christine Schiefer: No I think I've... Oh, yeah, we've covered that. Right?
Em Schulz: George Burton.
Christine Schiefer: We... I know... I know I did the milkshake murderer because it was like a whole.
Em Schulz: Because obviously. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause obviously it was, like, such an... Let me, let me look it up, and maybe it's a different one. Milkshake murderer? Is that what she name is? [0:40:21.3] ____.
Em Schulz: He shot a server named Wanda who gave him a milkshake that was not filled to the line.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what was his name again? Sorry.
Em Schulz: George Burton.
Christine Schiefer: No, maybe I haven't. I think that was one that I saw back in the day. And then I was like, well, there's really not much to it. He just shot somebody 'cause they didn't do the milkshake right. Umm.
Em Schulz: That's exactly right. He... Apparently, he actually, like, was so pissed at her and was like, you're cheating me out of my fucking milkshake. I'm gonna come back here with a gun.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And then left. And then left. And I think she just thought, like, okay. That was, like, an idle threat. And he literally came back with a gun and shot her. Crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Okay, so that is uh, fully premeditated. Sure.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And then, uh, there's. And then one of the women who stayed in this prison was 72-year-old Laura Devlin, aka the Handsaw Slayer.
Christine Schiefer: What? Who are all these people?
Em Schulz: In the 1800s, you had nothing to do. You might as well pick a name. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Might as well. And nobody's taken it yet, right? Like, they're for the choosing. For the taking.
Em Schulz: Well, they say she was, uh, allegedly being abused by her husband. I think... I don't know if that's true. If it is not true, it's used as a way to, like, justify her actions, I guess. But they got in a fight at one point, she finally snaps. She kills him. She dismembers him with a handsaw, throws his torso into the backyard, and then takes all of his limbs and head and bakes them.
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh, I was not expecting that. Why don't they call her something else about the baking?
Em Schulz: Yeah, the Handsaw Baker or something.
Christine Schiefer: The handsaw is not as interesting as the rest. Like, Jesus.
Em Schulz: They get, uh... So then she wrote a letter to herself as evidence that he died, saying that she got this letter from his family in Philadelphia. And while he was there, he passed away. So if anyone ever came one asking about him, she could show them the letter. The mailman shows up being like, where is your husband? And she shows him a letter that says, uh, you know, he died. He's like, one, I'm your fucking mailman. I don't remember ever giving you this letter.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And two, Philadelphia is spelled wrong, so it wouldn't have. So people who live in Philadelphia would have known how to spell that. And two, you drew the stamp on.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up. Girl, you couldn't even spare fucking 2 pennies or whatever for a stamp to seal the deal? Oof.
Em Schulz: Well, so then he calls the police, and they get to her house, and she is allegedly found burning the rest of his limbs in the stove to get rid of evidence.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God, this is so disturbing. Okay.
Em Schulz: The last person I will mention who was an inmate here, this is the most famous story, umm, at the jail is of 17-year-old Carl Etherington. He was a dry agent detective for the Anti-Saloon League of Ohio.
Christine Schiefer: I knew it. These fucking prohibitionists.
Em Schulz: Also, Anti-Saloon League is just like. What a cool way of saying losers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fucking nerds. [laughter] Fucking squares.
Em Schulz: I just say, I'm a dry agent detective. Shut up, Mariska. What are you talking about? Like, you're fine.
Christine Schiefer: Come on, get a hobby. Leave us alone.
Em Schulz: And he's also 17. It's like, of course it's a fun game for you.
Christine Schiefer: 17.
Em Schulz: When you can't even drink.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you get a badge. Of course, you want to be the dry whatever the fuck detective.
Em Schulz: It says, like junior park ranger or something.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, like, you are a little too big for your britches, my friend.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so this is in 1910, and he was tasked with raiding a bunch of saloons and speakeasies in the area. And during the raid, I don't... Every single source told me a different story. He... It's either a dirty cop he runs into or one of the local saloon owners that everybody loved, but it's someone that the city seems to care about because they're on their side of, like, keeping all of the bars open.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: He ends up in, like, fisticuffs with this person and in self-defense shoots the guy, and the guy dies. So now the town is fucking pissed. They're like, this nerd came in and just shot up the guy who was giving us booze. What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So this thousand-person mob starts forming through town. And...
Christine Schiefer: By the way, I'm so sorry. We're recording and it's July...
Em Schulz: Was that a storm.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's fucking fireworks. It's July 3, and I keep, like, forgetting. And so every... I'm like, so jumpy 'cause it keeps.
Em Schulz: Sounded like a storm. That made me so jealous.
Christine Schiefer: I wish. No, it's a fucking fireworks. And we live, like, right on the river. So it, like, carries. Not the Licking River, a different one. But it, like, fucking carries and, like, blasts through our house. It's very alarming. Anyway, if you hear it, that's what that is and I apologize.
Em Schulz: Poor puppy dog.
Christine Schiefer: He doesn't give a shit. It's mostly me that's concerned. Like, nobody else cares. Just me.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, yeah. So, a mob forms in town, being like, we have to go, like, get this guy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I don't know, again, the sources feel different. But either 'cause he shot and killed somebody, he ended up in jail, or a lot of sources say to keep him protect... Like to give him protective custody from the mob, they just put him in jail for the night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But if it's the version where he shot a dirty cop, I imagine he's like, now in jail with friends of this dirty cop in charge of the jail for the night.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're in trouble.
Em Schulz: And either way, the mob goes to the jail knowing that's where he is. They... Probably because the cops were just as mad at him being there because they all seemed to be dirty in the, in the prohibition space.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think they just literally unlocked the fucking door to the jail and just let this mob come in. They say, like, the mob broke in. It sounds like they really, just like, waltzed in.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. They like, had a key. At least.
Em Schulz: They, like, had a key. Yeah. Uh, they find his cell. Somehow, it's like a big ass heavy metal Queen Mary door. So they say, they broke in. No, I think a cop literally gave them the key or they stormed the jail, found the keys and... And opened the door.
Christine Schiefer: That happens too I feel like, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, they find him. They beat the shit out of him with a hammer. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Nearly to death. Then they drag him through the jail out to the town square, take him to.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: A utility pole and hang him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And allegedly, allegedly for the rest of the week, 5000 townspeople came to see his body.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my lord.
Em Schulz: Uh, he was white, in case anyone's wondering, because I, I was nervous when I saw lynch mob in my notes. So just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Now they... They were...
Em Schulz: Not that it matters but, in case anyone was having thoughts about that. Umm, but also the thing that's most important to me is this guy was 17.
Christine Schiefer: That is disturbing. That is disturbing. I know back then it was like, oh, well, he's an adult basically, but, like, he's not, you know.
Em Schulz: You're right. Umm, either way, uh, that... That... He's like the most notorious death to happen there because it was definitely the most traumatic.
Christine Schiefer: And that's... Very. Yeah, yeah. At the very least.
Em Schulz: The governor of Ohio, like, fired the mayor and the sheriff and all the cops all in one fell swoop after that because they're like, how on earth did any of this happen? And like, how did he, how did people get into this jail and just take one of your prisoners and hang them for the entire town to fucking see? And everyone was fine with it? Umm, and I think it was like 60 people were indicted for like, murder and battery and rioting. So.
Christine Schiefer: Woof.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. Rough time. So now, fast forward to the '70s. This jail is falling apart. Ohio has issued new standards for state jails, and like this place couldn't even begin to pretend that they were up to code.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: From the very, I, I mean by the, by this point it was already falling apart and the conditions were terrible. And so when they came up with this like, new set of standards, the jail was like, oh, fuck.
Christine Schiefer: They were like, throw their hands up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No chance.
Em Schulz: So, uh, by 1987, so they survived for almost another decade. Like, despite breaking every single code possible, uh, the conditions got worse. It ended up closing in the '80s. It reopened its offices in storage space until 2012. And then in 2012, uh, interest was piqued in restoring the jail. So they decided to do what every jail I cover seems to do, which is open a haunted house and do ghost tours in the jail to...
Christine Schiefer: I mean.
Em Schulz: Raise the funds to preserve it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I guess once you see one jail doing it, you're like, well, we might as well.
Em Schulz: It's always weird to me when haunted places run Halloween houses. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: I just, I agree. It feels like, Ooh, how far? How.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like a gray area. A little bit.
Em Schulz: I feel like I understand. Like, this is the perfect space historically. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: If it's already haunted, makes sense why it'd become a Halloween thing, but also it doesn't feel enough like a TV or movie set where I can just enjoy my time here. I feel like I'm... Part of my head is like, oh, people actually did die here. This is like, kind of fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels kind of like that strange combo of like, push and pull, like, well.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I wanna just like, be like, Ooh, creepy. But also like, oh, no, someone was hanged outside.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Multiple people were, yeah. It feels strange. Yeah. I agree.
Em Schulz: Especially when, umm, like the ghosts of the Halloween attraction are homages in some twisted way.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: Of the ghost. Like Queen Mary, every Halloween they do a thing. And one of the people who died on the Queen Mary was John Pedder who got cut in half by a door.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And one of the whole attractions is just like John Pedder and like half of his body. I, I think I remember seeing like a, like a spirit Halloween half body pressed into a door. And I was like, oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord. So they're like, see, see.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] I don't know if they still do that, but I remember like 10 years ago they were doing it and I was like, oh, that feels a little off, but.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Whatever. So this place, oh my God, I'm being summoned.
Christine Schiefer: What was that... Summoned by?
Em Schulz: By my own alarm, What is going on? Why does my phone keep thinking it's time to like go into battle?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That scared the Bejesus out of me.
Em Schulz: It scared me too, but that's the only way I wake up from things. I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you do. I mean, I remember we stayed in a recently, like adjoining hotel rooms, and I like [0:50:57.3] ____ this.
Em Schulz: I'm so sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No, it was fine.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I was, I was actually already awake, I think, which is why it was so startling. I was like on my phone and I just heard this like, [0:51:05.8] ____, and I thought like, oh, this is the end. Okay. Uh, nope. It's just Em rolling out of bed.
Em Schulz: And not even, because Allison takes videos of me where that, I mean, it's like the Avengers, like, we're summoning you to go fight a battle song. Like, it's like, like it's a loud, loud song. And I sleep with my phone like this next to my head. So that way I'll... The speaker will be directly at my ear and Allison will take videos of me just completely sleeping through it. Like.
Christine Schiefer: How... Have you gotten tested for, uh, sleep apnea [laughter]? Like how are you sleeping through that?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I've slept through three fire alarms so far.
Christine Schiefer: Or like narcolepsy or something. I feel like there's quite a bit of.
Em Schulz: There's something going on.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's alarming a little bit, so to speak.
Em Schulz: I really just, once I'm asleep, I'm truly fucking [laughter] not of this planet anymore for a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. All right.
Em Schulz: So it has to be really loud, but I don't know. I don't know if there's a condition going on. I haven't looked further into it. [laughter], I Just...
Christine Schiefer: That's for another day. We have enough stress on our plate right now. Let's not even think about it.
Em Schulz: Yeah that's... That's for future Em.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's a future Em problem.
Christine Schiefer: It's a future Em.
Em Schulz: Anyway, this jail is, uh uh, created the SINdicate Haunted House Group, and they did spell it SINdicate.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's fun.
Em Schulz: I do like that.
Christine Schiefer: I do.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then they also have their Preservation society, and they work hand in hand to do preservation efforts, including the Jail of Terror.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Which is the seasonal Halloween haunted house.
Christine Schiefer: I'm the worst. I'm like, Ooh, la la [laughter] That's so cute. They're like, no, it's terrible.
Em Schulz: Well, my favorite thing that I, I do really like this part is apparently this jail is notorious, apparently through Ohio as one of the most haunted places in Ohio. And, uh, the Jail of Terror because every Halloween haunted jump scare house has to have a theme.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: The theme is you are ghost hunting at the jail.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's kind of fun.
Em Schulz: So this is a quote from, from someone. It says it's based on paranormal ghost hunts. You start off like you're in a ghost hunt and it just gets worse until you get to the basement.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So, but they're like acting like you're getting.
Em Schulz: I guess so.
Christine Schiefer: You're like playing a character and it's like, oh, stuff is going on. Like a murder mystery almost. Like they're having words come through and stuff. Like they're.
Em Schulz: I, I haven't seen it. I have no idea. But I do know that the theme is you are ghost hunting there and people are jumping out at you. So maybe you're just like a really successful ghost hunter and all the ghosts are coming out. I have no idea.
Christine Schiefer: Alright.
Em Schulz: But also, can you imagine in like one of the most haunted jails and like the, the basement or the dungeon is like notoriously the most haunted and the scariest imagine being paid, certainly not enough to have to just sit in one of those cells all night waiting for somebody to come through.
Christine Schiefer: That's such a good point. It's like, it's not even for the people going through, it's like for the people who are acting there, they don't get to just go to like a, like a strip mall and hang out in the dark.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like they have to be in like an abandoned, haunted ass prison for real.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And pretend to scare people. Like, you're so right. That is the worst of both worlds. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Hopefully the sounds of like people like having fun and like creepy music and everything is like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is kind of distracting you from the truth. But I mean, I have seen pictures and video of this basement and it is fucking scary looking. So I, I can't imagine being like the first one down there as you're like getting ready for the night and like opening up.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: You know, ugh.
Christine Schiefer: That feels like not the job for me.
Em Schulz: Not at all.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, this place is incredibly haunted. The Old Licking County Jail is wildly considered one of the most haunted places in the state. And people encounter, uh, cell doors slamming. They feel themselves getting touched. They have heard whispering in their ear. They've heard whistling, keys jingling, moaning. They've seen shadows and lights. They've heard footsteps, they've heard giggling, uh, from children and adults. There's laughter.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Giggling of adults. I feel like we always say giggling of kids, but giggling of adults is also really bad.
Em Schulz: Ugh. To hear an adult go he-he-he.
Christine Schiefer: Like, who's giggling?
Em Schulz: What are you talking about? Umm, people see full blown apparitions, people's electronics, batteries die. They have seen black masses just appear and vanish right before you. People have gotten shoved and people have also gotten attachments where something follows them home.
Christine Schiefer: Oh No.
Em Schulz: And of course there's just EVPs and orbs abound. Umm, people have also heard crying people have seen, when they knew they were in a group of a certain amount of people, they have noticed someone else following them.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: People have heard screams so loud. This is specifically construction workers who have done like restorations here. They have heard screams so loud coming from rooms that are now walled up. And the screams, they've had to raise the volume on their music they bring with them just to muffle out the screams and finish their shift.
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine someone's like, no, I'm really stuck in here. And they're like.
Em Schulz: I know [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Turning up some Billy Joel. I don't wanna hear it. I don't wanna hear it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, it's so awful. Well, yeah. Can confirm nothing should be going on back there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, in the area that was, once the sheriff's family's home, people get really sick and even pass out. And in the dungeon, people feel themselves getting grabbed all the time. They see shadows darting around corners. Heavy chairs have gotten thrown by themselves. And people feel this really intense, oppressive presence that makes them immediately wanna leave.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Some even claim that throughout the jail you can see Carl trying to escape from a group of people.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's sad. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: That's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, the jail has been featured on several programs, including Resident Undead, a movie called God Don't Make The Laws. And then our favorite Zak Bagans has inserted himself into the narrative.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously.
Em Schulz: So obviously I have to talk about that. I will say this episode was like pulling teeth, trying to find it online. I don't know why.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: I don't know what Zachary's fucking deal is.
Christine Schiefer: He's everywhere.
Em Schulz: He's everywhere. And nowhere all at once.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: It's like he has some deal where you have to join.
Christine Schiefer: Like God [laughter]
Em Schulz: He is Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Well.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, have you seen that big ass cross tattoo on every inch of his body?
Christine Schiefer: You know what I have. And he showed some nuns in one episode and they were pissed off.
Em Schulz: Well.
Christine Schiefer: Dead ones to be clear.
Em Schulz: Of course. Well, uh, he, I don't know. I don't know what his deal is. I feel like he has a contract with six different streamers and they all get a certain set of episodes and then.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. And then they trade them out around or whatever.
Em Schulz: It's so fucking annoying. I literally added myself to three different subscriptions last night trying to find.
Christine Schiefer: And then they're... They all have like fake names. They're like, join like the Mewtwo channel. And you're like, what?
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, it's only 69.99 a year. And you're like, and now you don't even have the episode you promised me.
Em Schulz: Exactly. I can't. I had to cancel immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, story of my life.
Em Schulz: 'Cause they said, oh, it's on this random network. So then I joined that network and then it wasn't there. Or it said like, oh, this episode's coming out next year in 2025.
Christine Schiefer: No. Rude.
Em Schulz: And so I had to cancel it and then joined. Anyway, I found it on Roku.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: I don't have a Roku, by the way. I just joined Roku last night so I could watch the stupid thing.
Christine Schiefer: You do now. [laughter],
Em Schulz: I'm now officially a population one more of Roku City. Thank you so much.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, welcome.
Em Schulz: So, uh, anyway, I joined Roku for everybody and I watched this episode and since apparently he wants...
Christine Schiefer: Oh by the way. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I think I'm seeking, umm, some gratitude from us. So thank you Em.
Em Schulz: Since, uh, he wants to gate keep this episode from you, I found it and we're gonna talk about it. So no one else has to struggle like I did.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, I'm such a martyr.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: And the first line of the episode is him looking at you through a jail cell door.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure.
Em Schulz: And he says, in many ways a jail is worse than a prison.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And [laughter], that's where it starts. So I thought, excellent. Great start. Let's see where it scares.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah, we're in it now. You're like, Roku. Thank you. Thank you Roku.
Em Schulz: He also, he was walking with purpose. I know that the director was like, we need you to walk down the hall. Like usually he's standing with his arms crossed in front of the building when he says.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: His little shtick in the beginning. Every...
Christine Schiefer: And then they zoom...
Em Schulz: Every scene. I feel like they forgot to do some scenes where he is walking and some where he's standing. All of them, he's walking in a different direction to finish the sentence he started in the last clip.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fun.
Em Schulz: He's just walking. He is all about that walking life.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But I love that. Maybe that's why they didn't put it on. They like took it off all the streaming platform. He's like, he's like, I don't want anyone to see this. Like, just give it to Roku.
Em Schulz: And he is and he is not walking like a normal person either. He's walking.
Christine Schiefer: Of course not.
Em Schulz: Like, he's trying to find a bathroom right now. Like [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] That's why sometimes a jail is worth worse than a prison. No bathrooms in sight.
Em Schulz: It must be. And so, umm, anyway, he's letting you know his opinion on jails and prisons. Then he interviews this guy named Eric, who is now a paranormal investigator, but was once, I think like a local cop who actually brought people to this jail.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, so perfect marrying of two situations.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He has like special insight.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Now he investigates there at night, which is, it's gotta be so weird. I would feel, I would make it my whole personality in that building though. Like, I had seniority to others. If I knew what it looked like when it was in operation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. You'd be like, huh? That actually, don't lean on that. That's an, uh, original 1895 spiel bar.
Em Schulz: Or, or like something really great happened in that room. But I guess you had to be there you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You had to be there. It was like, I was just to be clear, I was there.
Em Schulz: I was there which is why I'm gonna about it.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause everybody understands that I was there yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you talk about it to somebody and you act like you were there, I will let everyone know you weren't there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm watching you all the time because this is my jail actually. [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, so he tells Zak, he was like, yeah, we hear people cussing, like visitors out all the time. We've seen people get scratched and mid-interview, Zak hears a sound upstairs, which happens to be Carl's cell. So they go check...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh Mid interview, I love when that happens.
Em Schulz: I do love it. And like that does feel like something that he can't always control unless he's hired Aaron to like, do some jumping jacks upstairs. [laughter], like [laughter] So actually it would could be something.
Christine Schiefer: Unless he's hired Aaron to go far away and Aaron is like, I'm bored. I'm gonna do a cartwheel. Yeah [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That I feel like that's more likely [laughter]
Em Schulz: So this cop turned investigator, he says, oh yeah, I'll go with you. We'll both go look at Carl's cell. And he does say, we've gotten EVPs from this room, which they play and they are very creepy.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Of a man's voice very clearly saying, I'm Carl, help me.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: And it's very clear. It's not a...
Christine Schiefer: That's sad.
Em Schulz: It's a class A, EVP.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder.
Em Schulz: Bruh.
Christine Schiefer: It makes me sad that he has to say I'm Carl. Like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Instead of, because you sometimes hear like, help me. And that's really scary. But the fact that he is like, I'm Carl, I got killed. Help me. Like, ooh.
Em Schulz: Or like, I'm Carl. I know you know my story.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. You know me.
Em Schulz: Because we both know how fucked up that what happened to me was like, you know, why you need to help me.
Christine Schiefer: Like the guy you always talk about on the guy you're talking about on camera. That's me. I'm Carl.
Em Schulz: Ah, Ah, Goosebumps Ah.
Christine Schiefer: I know goosecams for sure. Ah, by the way, the psychic medium was like, oh, when I received, when I get goosebumps, I know that.
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know [laughter] [laughter] I was like, ah.
Em Schulz: I'm sure whatever you were gonna say at the end of that sentence was beautiful. And so, you know, I just don't, I don't care.
Christine Schiefer: I actually made that noise before she finished speaking, so I have no fucking clue what she said, which is why, uh, I just kind of repeated it in the exact same fashion that it originally happened. [laughter] Yeah. I just started screaming.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, so they go to his cell, they ask for him to show himself, and immediately Jay's camera dies. And it was like, this was like mid-interview. So it was early in the day. The cameras were definitely charged. Umm, and also they even show his camera and Aaron's camera that were off the same charging dock. And Aaron's camera's still at like 70% and Jay's just drops dead immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Then they're talking to this investigator named Carla, who has a chihuahua named Shaq [laughter] And apparently Carla, whenever she investigates, she brings Shaq with her to the house. Can you imagine being this tiny little chihuahua who your, your stereotype is to already be shaky and riddled with anxiety.
Christine Schiefer: Aw, poor baby.
Em Schulz: And now you're bought this, this dark ass abandoned, haunted jail just so you can be used as a ghost detecting tool.
Christine Schiefer: First of all, like every other chihuahua as ever. You've been named something so much bigger and stronger than yourself. [laughter] sort of giving, like, sort of implying that you are ready to fight, even though you're just a shaky little guy. And then they're like, anyway, come on, time for work. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Time for work. We're like, you did not ask for this. You're just too small to escape me.
Christine Schiefer: Poor baby Shaq [laughter]
Em Schulz: But so she says, oh, Shaq always barks when something's near.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So like, Shaq is... Shaq... Justice for Shaq? Get Shaq out of there.
Christine Schiefer: Shaq's on the case, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so this is when Zak call, oh, he says, oh, hi Shaq. I'm Zak. Love that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, Cute. Cute.
Em Schulz: And then he says, oh, Shaq like barks anytime there's a ghost in the room. So he, and then he announces to the camera, he says, everybody, this is the canine version of a mel meter, which is actually pretty funny.
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh my God. [laughter] Okay. I guess.
Em Schulz: Uh, he's very into him, into the dog being a living version of Ghost Tools. So then...
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of cute. I get it.
Em Schulz: In the matron's area, the investigators catch a video, not the investigators like the ghost, the GAC, Ghost Adventures Crew.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, Shaq and his humans are the investigators I'm talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: In the matron's area or the, the woman's area, the fourth floor, they've caught in the past a video of a See-through apparition peeking out around a doorframe. And it does look really fucking creepy. I gotta be honest.
Christine Schiefer: I fucking hate that. I don't like it.
Em Schulz: Then one of the investigators tell Zak, uh, oh, we had a spirit box session one time and we got this voice creepy, by the way, creepy man voice saying, I'm David. And.
Christine Schiefer: And nobody asked.
Em Schulz: Yeah, [laughter] Okay, thanks David. Go away.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they get I'm David, and then they took a picture of the room and a literal man is standing on the corner.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Literal man. You cannot deny me.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, yeah, I just told you I was here.
Em Schulz: Yeah. On that.
Christine Schiefer: Everyone starts screaming.
Em Schulz: On that same investigation, one of the investigators, or I don't know if she's an investigator or just someone who works at the jail, and she was there that night, her name is Misty. She's way too young to be dealing with bullshit like this, but she's on this investigation probably for fun, of course. And she starts hearing her name getting called.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, oh.
Em Schulz: And they ask David, because then they also, umm, they get this one really creepy EVP and clear as day, it's a man going, Hey, Misty. So then they ask David if he's the one saying the name.
Christine Schiefer: You are a pervert. David, are you a pervert?
Em Schulz: Well, it was a, a men's prison and he'd probably never seen a woman in quite some time. So.
Christine Schiefer: So can, may I ask again? How old is Misty?
Em Schulz: Uh, she feels like, like a late teen or an early 20s.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Hopefully, hopefully not. Okay. Hopefully not a child.
Em Schulz: I don't think, I don't think there was anything illegal going on.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But she certainly was too young to be dealing with this.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it is a ghost, so I don't know if that's illegal to begin with, but... Yeah, I do, I do resp... I do understand what you're saying. Maybe, maybe not as bad as it sounds. Okay.
Em Schulz: Well, so they ask David, are you the one saying her name? And he responds in the spirit box. We love her.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: They play this EVP. It actually really is so creepy. Hey, Misty. Zak interviews Misty. She says that David is, after that night, David has attached himself to her and now there's a shadow man that walks through her house at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I can't even think. I can't even...
Christine Schiefer: No. Oh no. That's the worst thing. You don't wanna bring that home.
Em Schulz: She didn't wanna scare her family. And also her dad doesn't seem like much of a believer, so she didn't wanna say anything and like, seem crazy. And then her dad told her he'd been seeing a shadow man walking through the house.
Christine Schiefer: The dad who's like not into this whole thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. And he didn't even know. Oh.
Em Schulz: So now there's two people who are seeing the shadow person, and then her little sister starts feeling something staring at her around the house. And one time even something touches her on the back.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So the whole family is dealing with this thing now. Zak halts the show. He says, Misty, this jail don't know her. We're investigating your house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what?
Em Schulz: So they go to her house.
Christine Schiefer: They go to Misty's house? Her dad's like, are you fucking kidding me right now?
Em Schulz: 12 minutes into this episode, they say, Nope, we are going to Misty's instead.
Christine Schiefer: This is hysterical. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, they turn on the spirit box and right away, Hey, Misty.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it. Are you serious?
Em Schulz: Misty is wigging out and so am I.
Christine Schiefer: I am too.
Em Schulz: Uh, every time, Mis... And Zak even says, while we're there, like making sure that he's in the room because he's attached to you, you need to be saying you need to leave this house. You're not welcome, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know if that's actual proper protocol, but okay, whatever. That's what he told her to do. So she's saying, you need to leave this house. You need to leave this house. Every time she says it, the rem pod next to her freaks the fuck out.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Zak, here is a quote from him. I decide now is the time to be more aggressive with this spirit to hopefully force it out of the home. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was really holding back and being gentle, but now there I have no other choice.
Em Schulz: Also, this... This poor girl is now being fucking haunted by a poltergeist that I don't know if I have any control over, but let's stir some shit up and then leave.
Christine Schiefer: Sheer lunacy.
Em Schulz: Uh, at the time he starts up, an orb is actually seen shooting into Misty's head. It is a weird looking orb. It shoots into her head, and then she grabs her head like something touched her.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: The next day, after looking through the footage from her house, uh, he goes to Misty's family and says, yeah, it's definitely haunted. Okay. The dad, by the way, Misty, uh, not that I think that you listen to this show, but if you happen to come across this, I gotta be honest, your dad did not seem helpful. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He, the show, like, he, he clearly is not a believer. He was giving the energy like, oh, my, my kid gets to like be on Ghost Adventures, so I'll be there too. But when they were saying, this is what's happening to your kid in your own fucking house, like, wake up and like pay attention to her. Something scary is going on. He was like, man, that's cool. That's cool. Like I was.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Which like, I was like, you are not giving the energy that's needed here.
Christine Schiefer: Wrong vibe man.
Em Schulz: Yeah, he was not reading the room very well. Umm, anyway, again, Misty, if you hear this, I hope I was wrong. I hope that you got the help that you needed because I have a feeling Zak did not actually help get rid of anything in your house.
Christine Schiefer: No, you don't say.
Em Schulz: If he did, please correct me, but I would bet at least 50 of my dollars that, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That he did not. Umm, and also on top of it, it seems like no wonder you didn't wanna tell your dad 'cause it's, he's giving the vibe that he would've made fun of you. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I hope you're okay. I hope you're okay. Zak...
Christine Schiefer: I also hope you're okay.
Em Schulz: Zak then basically says, sorry, Charlie, we've, uh, probably stirred shit up and now we're gonna go investigate this jail that our producers paid for. Bye. So he really just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah [laughter] anyway, so yeah, we just made it so much worse. [laughter] see ya.
Em Schulz: Anyway, have a, have a fun night sleeping here as we just made you.
Christine Schiefer: And arguing with your dad [laughter]
Em Schulz: So then they, uh, they now go back to the jail. The, sorry, Misty. Hope all is well. They decide that they wanna look for the spirit that was peeking around the door frame in one of the investigators' footages.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So that's their goal. They're looking for this person.
Christine Schiefer: This little creep.
Em Schulz: TBD on if they were ever found. Let's be clear.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Some say they're still looking to this very day.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, they go to the basement or the dungeon. Apparently five people have died here.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: I actually do think this is like, so it, it could have been footage from when you and I go ghost hunting because it's footage of him looking at his equipment as he's walking down the stairs and he's going by himself. And this place actually is so scary. It's the room where there's...
Christine Schiefer: Who's that?
Em Schulz: Zak. It's, he's going into the dungeon by himself. There's apparently that super oppressive thing who like throws chairs around. And he keeps saying as he's walking down, he does seem like uncharacteristically scared. He's like, I don't, I really don't wanna be here. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: That never happens.
Em Schulz: As he is walking down the stairs, you hear at the bottom of the stairs, a cell door slam super hard. And you see him stop in his tracks and go, what the fuck was that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And then he goes, he says, all of a sudden I'm standing here not really wanting to go down these stairs. Umm, I don't wanna be here. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I have some, maybe that's why they don't play it on any other channel. 'cause he's like I got genuinely scared. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: 'Cause he's a scaredy-cat. Oh, it's like, it gets even worse 'cause he goes downstairs, he, before he even gets through the door, he's like, I hate this feeling. I don't wanna be here. He, you'd literally see him recoiling from the room and like backing away. And then you see him like hide from the camera and like, like giving himself a pep talk. Like He is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, stop [laughter] He's like, roses, roses. [laughter],
Em Schulz: Spring of the year.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, no, but he's literally like, you could hear him go, what the fuck's wrong man? Like, what's going on?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh buddy. Oh buddy. I never thought I'd feel like a little bit of pity, but wow.
Em Schulz: He's like clearly so rattled. He's like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: He's like so freaked out to be down there, but he like gets it together. And he even says in like, the voiceover, he's like, I've been in so many scary rooms. Like, why this one is fucking with me? I don't know, but I'm so rattled. So he gets down there, almost backs out, gives himself a pep talk. He gets himself together and goes back into the room and acts all tough. And he really goes in balls to the wall 'cause he then says, are you mad that I took Misty away from you?
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez, you gotta go there?
Em Schulz: No wonder he didn't wanna... No wonder he didn't wanna like go into that room. He knew he was gonna piss something off.
Christine Schiefer: He already had plans.
Em Schulz: So then he hears a voice on the spirit box, or he just hears it in real time. But he hears a voice. They're able to replay it. And it sounds like something saying, kingdom come.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Uh, he very, because he hears it. I don't know if it's through a machine or what, but he hears it in real time. He fucking bails. He is like, that was, umm, I tried. Next.
Christine Schiefer: Enough for me enough.
Em Schulz: And then, uh, he makes Nick go in his place.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: So then Nick eventually also hears a sound in one of the cells while hearing, uh, while feeling like pressure on his chest. And when he asks for another noise or sign, Nerve Center loses two of their cameras at the same time from different floors.
Christine Schiefer: That's not the... That's not the sign you want. Like if I said, give me a sign, and like, all my shit turned off, I'd be like...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: I get that that's a sign. But I should have been more specific. Not that sign.
Em Schulz: I also don't know which one it was, but I would be even more freaked out if through the walkie-talkies you heard them saying, your camera went out. You're by yourself. We can't see anything.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like you can't communicate anymore. It's like, well, okay, I should have really specified. I still want my connection to humanity. Please don't cut me off from the world.
Em Schulz: Which it feels very symbolic of like, now we've trapped you. Like no one's coming to help you with whatever we've got going on.
Christine Schiefer: Now you're in jail.
Em Schulz: Yeah which is worse than a prison. So.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I've always said that [laughter],
Em Schulz: I always will. One of, so one of, one of the X cameras comes back on, but like the footage is fried, like it looks like all like fucked up and glitchy. But the one on the fourth floor in the women's ward stays completely shut off. Uh, and that's where Nick keeps hearing noises above him on the fourth floor.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And all of a sudden the camera is out. So he goes up there by himself. So round of applause to Nick. He goes up there by himself and he finds that the, the X camera has completely died again, which this is now the second camera to die 'cause during their walkthrough earlier, a camera died up there. Remember?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So now this is the second camera. He like apparently had a fanny pack with a brand new battery in it when he went up there. So he went, okay, I'm just gonna replace it while I'm here. 12 seconds later, as he is just turning around and walking away, the camera dies. And it was a fully charged battery.
Christine Schiefer: That's that Like, that's when you're like, okay, this is not just a fluke. Like if it keeps happening with new batteries. Yeah. That's not good.
Em Schulz: In 12 seconds. I've never heard of a camera draining that fast.
Christine Schiefer: No No.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Especially that it started, it's not like, oh, the camera's completely busted. It won't even turn on.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like the fact that it started back up and then died.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: So now that's the third battery to die.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-Hmm.
Em Schulz: Brand new battery to die in the room. Then they get this unclear voice in the spirit box when he asks about Misty. But something's talking to him. We just don't know what it was saying. Then he sees something and takes off downstairs. Like he's not even responding to the walkie-talkies. They're like, what's going on? What did you see? And he's just flying down the stairs. [laughter] He's like, fuck this [laughter] He's like, not even talking about...
Christine Schiefer: None of your fucking business [laughter]
Em Schulz: He was like, I don't care that we're doing a TV show. I'm out of here.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, so now he gets back to Nerve Center and the whole squad goes together 'cause they're all scared.
Christine Schiefer: All holding hands.
Em Schulz: All holding hands. They hear banging on the fourth floor, the women's ward again. They go up there. The fourth battery is dead.
Christine Schiefer: I love that. The ghost is like, come back here. I killed your camera again.
Em Schulz: I know, but also I would be so petrified of like, that's four batteries worth of energy you've charged yourself up with. Like, how powerful are you?
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Ew. I hadn't thought of it like that.
Em Schulz: Uh, they later have the local investigators listen to the evidence and the spirit box voices. And the investigator confirms that. It sounds like David. And that's where it ends on that episode of Ghost Adventures. Which that's actually.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: That's actually a good one. Why won't you have that one everywhere?
Christine Schiefer: That's a kickass ep... That's a kickass episode. I wonder why they were holding back on us.
Em Schulz: Like lots of evidence. Zak is actually scared. Like... They do a whole separate side investigation. Like, I don't know why they canceled that one, but, uh.
Christine Schiefer: That's so weird. I wonder why. I wonder if they're just out like in a different cycle right now. Like it's just gonna be back on.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, if you need an account to Roku, uh, I'll, I'll send you my login so you can watch it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: LOL. I do need an account. Thank you.
Em Schulz: You're welcome.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh. Em, that was a good one, especially for a last minute one.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I thought so too. Well, usually when we do a last minute one, I'm just gonna go watch a Ghost Adventures episode and figure it out. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah yeah. And find this topic, which I kind of love too. But I love that you were like, I'll do this topic. And then you're like, shit, they won't let me watch the Ghost Adventures episode. Like, this is supposed to be easy.
Em Schulz: It oh... And I was so tired. I was literally like doing like the thing where I'm like nodding.
Christine Schiefer: The nodding. Oh.
Em Schulz: And I already knew I had, I had to keep it together for another 45 minutes to watch the episode.
Christine Schiefer: Oh No.
Em Schulz: And it took 45 minutes to find the episode. I was so fucking over it.
Christine Schiefer: No wonder you fall asleep like a rock. I mean. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. [laughter] I just hit the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm glad you liked it. I was surprised that for, uh, something I had to do last minute. I, I've, it was a very good episode.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, well, I'm glad too. And I, I actually left, I had it downstairs actually. Can I run and pee? 'Cause I wanna, I have a, a prop to bring. No, it's a good prop. It's about you. It's like something you did [laughter] that makes it sound better. Right?
Em Schulz: [laughter] Okay. Uh, you know, you have piqued my curiosity, so absolutely.
Christine Schiefer: Alright I'm gonna mute myself. I'll be right back.
Em Schulz: I don't know if this is gonna make it in, but when Christine says I have to go get something downstairs, she has to run down like five flights of stairs. So we, we might be here alone together for a while. You're catching your breath from all those stairs, huh?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's a lot of stairs. Umm, okay. So I brought our, uh, new book. Here it is.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la, because I'm covering, I thought I'd do like a little teaser. A, a cover a story from an upcoming.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Chapter of the book because I realized, uh, as I was doing the audio book portion of it, like recording it, umm, which you have not done yet, right?
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: I just did mine the other day, it was super fun. Umm, and while I was doing it, I realized how few of these stories I've ever covered on the podcast. Like, I think there's only two of mine that are.
Em Schulz: I really try to only do new stories for the book.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there's, I mean, so I thought why not do like a little teaser of one? And of course I'm not just gonna read the chapter, like that would be hilarious. But, umm, [laughter],
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if you just said like, umm, uh, like a dramatic reading of your own fucking book.
Christine Schiefer: And you have to just be quiet the whole time? Because I'm reading. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The irony of also like a podcast and an audio book kind of actually really being the same thing. I mean, a jail is better though than a prison. So like a podcast is better than an audio book.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But they are very similar.
Christine Schiefer: Duh, by that law, by the transitive property, we all know that to be true. No, and as I was doing the audiobook, it was so funny, the guy afterwards was like, wow, it really sounds like you were just talking, not reading. And I was like, well, that's the one perk of my job is that I learned how to pretend like someone's listening to me. And...
Em Schulz: That's very nice of you to, did you like your guy who.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. He was great.
Em Schulz: Am I working with him, do you think?
Christine Schiefer: No, 'cause I'm in, uh, Cincinnati [laughter]
Em Schulz: I didn't Well, I didn't know if you were gonna have like, umm, like if it was through Zoom or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, it's his store... It's his, uh, it's his studio here in Cincinnati. So I went to his studio but.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, which last year I did it just over Zoom.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And this one felt much more professional 'cause I had to stand.
Em Schulz: You stood? Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow. I went to, I went to a, a recording studio and they absolutely gave me a seat.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Damn. Okay, well next time. I know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: But I do feel like that kind of thing of like, oh, singers, they have to like open their chest, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm. Gotcha. Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Work on my instrument.
Em Schulz: Yeah, of course. Your instrument. Keep, keep her, keep her together. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Me, Me, me, me, me, me me me me. You wouldn't wanna lose that would you folks? Okay. [laughter] So I wouldn't wanna put that at risk. So here's our beautiful book. Uh, probably 99% of you are not on video, but we're very proud of it. It's called A Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop. Again, this is not part of the plan. I just changed.
Em Schulz: It comes out September, 29th. And please pre-order. It's very important to us when you preorder.
Christine Schiefer: It sure does. I'm pretty sure it's September 24th, but I could be wrong.
Em Schulz: Fuck.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's one of those days. Umm.
Em Schulz: It's it's the last week of September and pre-orders are very important to our sales. So instead of purchasing later, please purchase now. Thank you so much.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. So this is the Indianapolis chapter. It took me a while to pick one. Umm, but I am going to do the Indianapolis chapter, which is a story about The Claypool Hotel.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And interestingly, so Em has... We have read the book, right? So folks like we have read these chapters, but it was A, like nine months ago that we read them for the last time. And B, we don't remember anything. So I am thinking Em's not gonna know what this is right away.
Em Schulz: Not even a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: It would be interesting to see if my comments are the same as the comments in the book.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's kind of why I brought the prop remember.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because I wanted to make sure I got the right, uh, you know, input. And I did make separate notes, like for this, I didn't just, again, I didn't just copy paste the chapter. Umm, but it's pretty similar. So if you like what you hear, maybe you can go pick up a copy.
Em Schulz: And if you don't like what you hear, buy it for someone else. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Someone with... With better taste than you [laughter] So [laughter] wow. I'm really selling it, huh? Okay. This is The Claypool Hotel. It's in Indianapolis, and it was once located on the corner of Washington and Illinois streets and was built in 1903 by a local businessman named Henry Lawrence, whose goal, which sounds like what you just talked about, about this jail whose goal was to build the finest hotel Indianapolis had ever seen.
Em Schulz: They're always trying to build the finest. I'm so tired of the finest. Like give me mediocre.
Christine Schiefer: Just like, get in line with Holiday Inn Express. They're like, it's not the finest, but it does what it says on the ten.
Em Schulz: But they've... Holiday Inn Express. They have been just fine. So why do you feel like you need to do better than that? You know.
Christine Schiefer: Why? Why reinvent the wheel? You know what I'm saying?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in addition to its luxurious amenities, for example, steam laundry.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And private bathrooms.
Em Schulz: No, I do. I like that. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. For 1903, that's important.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm. The water pressure was probably terrible. Imagine.
Christine Schiefer: It's probably a hose, but still [laughter],
Em Schulz: The first... The first toilets, I'm like, were they did, did people think they were just a scam? Because people had to be clogging those things all the time?
Christine Schiefer: Oh No.
Em Schulz: It must have felt like they weren't even worth it, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Until they figured out how to like really get the suction going.
Christine Schiefer: The plumbing. Oh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in addition to these "luxurious amenities" The Claypool also boasted, which reminds me of the Pfister Hotel. Uh, it had shops, it had a barber shop, it had an ice making plant, you know, a restaurant. It had all these parts that were meant to make you feel like you were at a one stop luxury stop.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: One stop luxury shop. And the hotel like he wanted, became one of the grandest in the Midwest. It was considered at the time.
Em Schulz: Oh, lovely.
Christine Schiefer: So he, he did nail it. That however, all changed in 1943 when housekeeper Lillian McNamara opened the door to room 729 and was shocked to discover the body of a woman face up with her arms above her head just lying on the ground.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Her slip and Army issued uniform skirt had been pushed up over her waist and she had been sexually assaulted.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Her head had seemingly been bludgeoned with a broken bottle that lay nearby. And so there was this big pool of blood and in the pool of blood near her head, lay a single quarter.
Em Schulz: A single quarter heads or tails.
Christine Schiefer: You know what, I don't think it was notated.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which is problem number one with this investigation.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Before long they were able to identify the victim as 32-year-old Women's Army Corps Corporal Maoma L. Ridings. Now this is so irrelevant, but I love her name Maoma.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's really pretty. It's like Naomi, but not Maoma.
Em Schulz: It... Well I was gonna say Mayo, which I do like, but, umm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My favorite condiment.
Em Schulz: It, it sounds like Mayo and Paloma or something, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, well, M-A-O-M-A. Yeah. Maoma. So detectives quickly set their sights on the first suspect they had, which was 23-year-old bellboy Robert Wolfington. And when they interviewed him, because he had been working that evening, his story was a bit shady. So Wolfington claimed that on the night of Maoma's murder, he had brought up a bucket of ice to her room, which she had requested. He explained that she allegedly spoke to him through the bathroom door, suggesting he leave the ice on the dresser and take a single quarter as a tip.
Em Schulz: Oh Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. A single quarter you say?
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On the whole, Wolfington's story seemed normal enough that you would just be bringing up an ice bucket. It's not that weird, but when police checked the in-room dining log book, he had failed to list this delivery and he claimed, oh, I just totally forgot to, to write it down.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is a little shady.
Em Schulz: Didn't forget to take the tip.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Didn't forget or did he? 'Cause it was still there.
Em Schulz: That's true. That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. But either way it was shady, but there really wasn't too much they could do because they thought he might be the guy. He actually also had like a very guilty conscience. They thought, they thought, because he said, ever since this happened, I haven't been able to sleep. I've been losing sleep, I've been drinking more. And they were like, Hmm, could this be a guilty conscience thing? But it also may have just been, he went through a traumatic experience thing, so.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Who knows. But even though he was very drunk when being questioned and was not the most reliable witness, they didn't have anything factual to hold onto. So, or to hold him to the crime. So he was let go. Now they did have another lead. Maoma had received a call to her hotel room the night she was killed. And when they traced back, who had made this call, turns out it was from a corporal Emmanuel Fisher who was stationed at a nearby base. And he told police he had a date planned with Maoma that night. And so he got stuck at work and he got called in, uh, to stay a little bit later. And so he called Maoma's room to tell her, Hey, I'm gonna be a little bit late to our date. And he heard a man in the background [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Of the phone call. And so he assumed Maoma had found another date already for tonight.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So he just shrugged it off and moved on. Now this is where Em's probably longest interjection of the whole book.
Em Schulz: What.
Christine Schiefer: Is Locate... Is located right here.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Do you have anything to add to try and guess what you said here?
Em Schulz: What was the prompt that I... Is there like...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, do you want... Want me to read it again?
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A few hours later he claimed he called Maoma again only to hear a man on the other end of the line. Assuming Maoma had found another date for the night, he shrugged off the incident and moved on.
Em Schulz: I don't know, what did I say?
Christine Schiefer: Well, let me find the page. Please hold. So Em said and I quote, "compliments to him for just shrugging it off. I would've secretly made it my whole personality, gently stalked them on social media and then still platonically followed their Instagram years later because I've now been remotely invested in their life for so long that to just walk away from it all would feel like losing a comrade in this fiery hellscape. Anyways. Hi Michelle."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would be lying if I said I didn't pick it for that very reason, because I read that last night and went, holy shit. Are you okay [laughter]?
Em Schulz: I, Michelle is someone I went on one date with and I can't un... I can't, I can't unfriend them. I just, I like to see what's going on, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I get it. I think it's a very relatable take.
Em Schulz: Michelle is now married, by the way, to someone who listens to this show, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I thought you made a fake name, Em. Why the fuck would you use a real name, [laughter]?
Em Schulz: I don't know, why not. I'm not ashamed of it or anything, but, umm, she apparent... I... At some point, like years after we went on our one date, uh, she said something that she was like, she's like, oh, I just, uh, just saying hi. I am, I'm dating someone now who listens to your show. Umm, and then they ends up getting married. So.
Christine Schiefer: And you were like, I know I follow you pretty extensively and thoroughly on Instagram.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Not extensively. Just if she shows up on my feed, I'll, you know, I, I read what it's about, but I.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, sure, sure, Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Em Schulz: Okay, Well I, uh, that's very funny. I'm so funny. I'm so glad I wrote that. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Are you guys glad to hear Em laugh at their own jokes? Uh, Em, you better, you better reread this before you go do the audiobook 'cause you're just gonna be laughing at your own jokes the whole time. [laughter] There were a couple of times during the reading of the audiobook where I said, motherfucker, I can't believe I have to say this out loud. And it's like something I wrote. But there's one where I literally did a whole, a whole verse of the Chacha slide.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I said out loud to Charlie, our publisher, and to the guy Mark, I was like, do I have to sing this? She's like, no response. And 'cause they're probably like, fuck... Your fucking book. You wrote it. So I'm just like, okay. So I'm like, chacha real smooth to the left, to the right. And I just see like these, like people just watching and like taking notes.
Em Schulz: They always look so stern. They don't look like they're having fun.
Christine Schiefer: It's so embarrassing. I was like, I can't believe I did this. So if you don't wanna copy our book, maybe just listen to the audio book 'cause it is really embarrassing what I did in there.
Em Schulz: [laughter] There was, uh, there was a point during the last time I recorded where, uh, to be fair, the guy that I was working with, I don't think he liked me and I don't think I liked him. Umm, we just did not connect. Uh, but anytime I said a joke, I really just needed someone to just at least fake laugh through the glass. So I didn't look like such, I didn't feel like such an idiot. Didn't laugh at a single thing. And I went, okay, well obviously you're not gonna buy this book. So, uh, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I actively didn't look at anyone.
Em Schulz: In my mind, I, I was like, I was like, can we get someone who will buy the book to be in charge of this? So I bet good ears.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but you also don't want them to be like laughing during it, right? Or you just want.
Em Schulz: I do.
Christine Schiefer: Like the validation of like, well, because they they have to be quiet.
Em Schulz: No, I was in like a... Like a... Like a sounded-off room. I could just see him through the class.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but maybe he was laughing. How can you tell?
Em Schulz: Because I could see him through the class, and he was not laughing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so you want him to just Kind of, like [chuckle]
Em Schulz: At least respond. Yeah, something.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Give me something.
Christine Schiefer: I think he's probably not allowed to, maybe you should give them, like, you can say, oh, this is an interactive recording session. Because I feel like most singers and stuff would be like, don't fucking interact while I'm recording something. You're different. We're different, 'cause we're like, we need validation. [laughter] You're allowed to laugh along.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'll let them know. I'll be like, my, my instruments and I both really need the praise. So do what you need to...
Christine Schiefer: It fine tunes my work. Thank you [laughter] umm, anyway, so that was Em's interject at this point. The guy was like, oh, looks like she found another date tonight. Well, too bad I got stuck at work. Bye.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, went on his merry way. So police had no reason to believe this guy, this corporal was lying. So they moved on to a third suspect. This third suspect was an unnamed hotel employee. We still don't have his name. And he became a person of interest because at the time he had been labeled as a sex offender. But when police could not come up with any rhyme or reason to connect him to this crime, they were back at square one. So I think what frustrates me about this is that any of these people maybe were involved. They just don't have any fucking proof. Like.
Em Schulz: Do you, did you, up at this point in your notes, did you have a guess on who it would be?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think this Wolfington character and his single quarter sounds a little suspicious, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm, I don't know for a fact 'cause again, it also happened so long ago that like, I mean, I only know what a couple articles are telling me, but it just seems a little odd. Especially the fact that he was like too drunk to even be interviewed multiple times. I think at one point, like he went to his parents' house and like refused to come out. There were all these like, strange behaviors that he was doing to avoid talking to the police. Which I'm not saying that's abnormal, I'm just saying in the context of like, did you kill a woman? Like it's a little abnormal. Umm...
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, that is unfortunately where we end that particular murder because it has never been solved.
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So wait, is the episode done? Wait a minute.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, okay. Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That is why I said that particular murder is now over.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Because, uh, it just, they just couldn't link anybody to it, which is very frustrating because I feel like we don't have enough information and it's just a big bummer. But we gotta move on because on July 18th, 1954, uh, this basically happened like right as people were starting to kind of get over the, uh, hullabaloo about the first murder. Like the first murder happens at this luxury hotel. Everyone's like, holy shit. 10 years later, everyone's kind of like, oh yeah, we've sort of started to move on. It happens again.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So it's almost like there's like this curse on this place. I don't know. That's just me saying that Nobody else, but it's a little bit odd. So just as the public started to kind of move on and pretend like this place was perfectly normal and luxurious as before the unthinkable happened and another woman was killed. This took place July 18th, 1954 when two housekeepers noticed what they called quote "a horrible odor coming out of the dresser in room 665."
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And in what I can only assume was a very, very traumatic moment, uh, and probably happened in slow motion. Uh, they pulled the dresser open together the drawer to find...
Em Schulz: What was it?
Christine Schiefer: The body of a woman jammed inside of the dresser.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible. According to the Indianapolis star, her "five foot six, 125 pound body was jammed into a dresser drawer that was about 48 inches by 24 inches and approximately 10 inches deep."
Em Schulz: Okay. That's, uh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Horrible.
Em Schulz: So was any, well, I, I guess we wouldn't know this, but I guess her body wasn't like cut up. Like they just really like cor... Kind of like bent her...
Christine Schiefer: They just... Yeah, they just kind of...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Shoved her in there. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Not that, I don't know what, like, uh, itself.
Christine Schiefer: I know it's, it's all bad. It's all bad as we like to say. Um, but it's, it's extra bad. I mean, it's not extra bad, but it's just sadder because you have more information when you find out that this is a young woman who's only 18 years old. Uh, her name is Dorothy Poor and she had been visiting Indianapolis in search of career opportunities. And when the county coroner took a look at her body, he determined she was probably smothered to death. Like probably...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: With a Pillow.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: A creepy side note here, which in the chapter I put at the end of the book, but I feel like is worth noting here because time-wise, it just makes more sense when telling it out loud. But apparently, so Dorothy went to Indianapolis in search of a job, apparently before she left. And I'm not entirely sure where she's from, but a different state. And before she left, her grandmother had taken her to a fortune teller. And the fortune teller had warned Dorothy to never visit Indianapolis again 'cause she had already been. And she said, you shouldn't go back there. And they said, why? And she said, because you face death upstairs in a building.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: And this is what this fortune teller allegedly told her before she left and went to Indianapolis anyway. And this is what her grandmother told reporters. So, you know, it's kind of a...
Em Schulz: Why are, why Are people going to fortune tellers just to not listen to them [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a really good point.
Em Schulz: Even...
Christine Schiefer: It feels like Lily and Darcy, the grandma was like, it was all her idea. You know, [laughter]
Em Schulz: Also, like, there was that in like, um, miss Molly Brown, like the unsinkable Molly Brown.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: She literally, they said, don't go near water, you will die, you will die, you will die. Homegirl goes on the Titanic. Like, what are you talking about [laughter]? Like, she just, these people just are spending money not to even use the service that's coming for them. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: If someone said, Stay away. I don't even know if they're a fraud. I would actively listen just in case.
Christine Schiefer: Just in case. You know, I don't even wanna like weird self-fulfilling prophecy where now it's in my mind and I'm, you know, but either way she probably said, grandma, I know you don't want me to get a job because I'm a woman, but I wanna go get a job. And so that I am imagining it was something like that. She's a young woman. Her grandma's like, don't travel to Indianapolis. Here, a fortune teller will tell you not to do it.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And she's like, grandma, grandma. Like, you know, I don't think it was, it sounded like the grandma was very much more, uh, into this whole fortune teller thing than she ever was. But in any case, that is a creepy side note. So she went anyway to Indianapolis. And interestingly, when they looked at records, it indicated that Dorothy was not staying here at this hotel. She was actually staying at a different hotel called the Lorraine Hotel, not the Claypool.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So detectives were like, well, how did she end up at the Claypool then in a dresser drawer? Um, obviously that's step number one. And detectives kind of surmised after talking to her family that she had probably been lured to the Claypool with the promise of a job interview...
Em Schulz: Oh man.
Christine Schiefer: Which makes me extra sad. It's like you're vulnerable already as a woman. You're trying to get a career path started in the '50s.
Em Schulz: And they're so limited opportunities.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It just feels extra icky to take advantage of somebody like that. And there was actually an undercover reporter, which is a totally separate story that I don't even talk about in this chapter, but I remember researching this story and there was this under undercover, uh, reporter who was a woman. And she tested it out by going to Indianapolis, dressed like she was there to look for, like, dressed like she came from a small town and was in the big city to look for a job. And she said she just did it to see how people would treat her. And she was like, it was horrible. She said she got off the train and like all these men came over saying, I've got a boarding house for you to stay. Oh, you look like you might need a ride. Like...
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: Just stranger danger.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: Times a thousand. So it's, I mean it's, it's extra creepy when you think about, like, that was kind of the norm that people would swarm in like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To help you quote unquote. And if, if they have bad intentions, you know, not good.
Em Schulz: No, thanks.
Christine Schiefer: So in any case, they thought, okay, well she was probably lured here for a job interview. And fortunately police already had a suspect in mind. And that's because somebody else was staying in this hotel room. And that was a person listed in the logbook as Jack O'Shea. And this is room 665. So they're thinking, okay, Jack O'Shea, we gotta figure out who this guy is. Um, but they're assuming this is a fake name 'cause why would you sign in with a real name if you're gonna murder somebody in this hotel?
Em Schulz: Why would you sign in if you're smart? Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. If you have. Exactly. So employees, they had instead draw, when they couldn't find a Jack O'Shea, they had the employees describe the man that they, uh, interacted with. And they created sort of a composite sketch to release to the public. And when they released this to the public and said, he may be going under the name Jack O'Shea, a dry cleaner in town said, oh wait, I know that guy. He used to work for me and his real name is Victor Lively.
Em Schulz: Uh oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he's caught. Police bring him into custody. Immediately he confesses to the crime. He's like, oh, you got me. I did it. And.
Em Schulz: Isn't it funny when it's that simple? It's just like, oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's, it's like, seriously, guy. So he described himself as a contact man for a human trafficking ring.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He.
Em Schulz: He described himself as that.
Christine Schiefer: I know. That's why it almost feels like he wanted to talk about it. Like, they're like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, those criminals where they say like, they're just itching.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To, to open the floodgates and tell you everything.
Em Schulz: And he's like, I've been dying to tell someone about this. I really just.
Christine Schiefer: Finally. I didn't, I was hoping it wouldn't be the cops, but I guess here we are. So I'll tell you.
Em Schulz: Which also if like, he clearly is not fine, he's totally fine with like being a snitch too 'cause if he just wanted to like fess up to the murder, he wouldn't be like, oh, I'm part of a human sex trafficking ring. Where now...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: I obviously have to tell you other people's names. Like.
Christine Schiefer: That's a really good point, Em, like, he just implicated a whole bigger group of people and implied he has other victims.
Em Schulz: Yeah. He just, he definitely now has just made.
Christine Schiefer: What an idiot.
Em Schulz: A bunch of enemies, like if you got caught for something, wouldn't, you'd just be like, yep, yep, that's me. And then at least you would have...
Christine Schiefer: And that's it. Don't look any further. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then you'd have no trouble. But now, like all you've done is ratted a bunch of people out who are gonna be mad at you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And they probably have no problem killing you.
Christine Schiefer: And now you're probably gonna face much bigger charges. Like, why did you even go there?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It just doesn't make any sense.
Em Schulz: He sounds Like a yapper. It sounds like he just.
Christine Schiefer: He sounds like a fucking yapper.
Em Schulz: He sounds like he just nervous talks.
Christine Schiefer: He needed to, he just blurted it out. Then he tried to probably do the thing that a lot of us do. Or is it just me? Where you try to fix it by explaining it further and then it's like, wait, no, now I'm overcomplicating it. And I, you didn't need to know all that. You know, you just kind of word vomit. So maybe that was his whole thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, but yeah, he did, he immediately was like, Anyway, me, I'm a contact man for a human trafficking ring and my role in the organization is to seduce girls and coerce them into sex work.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So like, okay, what the fuck? Then they ask, okay, well tell us what happened to Dorothy. He admits he tried to make a move multiple times. She rejected all of his advances and so he strangled her. He's like, yeah, I did that. So after a 13 day trial, he was sentenced to life at the Indiana State Prison, but he was paroled in 1980 and he died less than a year later.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So those are the two big deaths here at, uh, at the hotel. But I wanna tell you that there's a little bit of a, a haunting, uh, capper to the story.
Em Schulz: Ooh I love.
Christine Schiefer: Because of course there's a haunting, these are very traumatic incidents that happened here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So after two gruesome murders and a big fire, uh, the Claypool had to be demolished in 1969. And even though the hotel itself is long gone, now, wouldn't you know it, there's a good old Embassy Suites sitting right there where the Claypool used to be.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So.
Em Schulz: Almost like not the luxury hotel we all wanted, but the, the moderate one that's cozy and works well.
Christine Schiefer: The... It's affordable, doesn't need steam laundry. You know, good old fine laundry will do. Whatever.
Em Schulz: As suggested. As suggested.
Christine Schiefer: Totally true. So the Embassy Suites sits in its place and I feel like you don't often hear about like a haunted Embassy Suites. Uh, but it is haunted, so.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Staff say that and guests have said that. And so if you decide to stay, this is what I wrote in the book and I kept this line in because I'm like, that's really silly. But I wrote, if you decide to stay the night on your own haunted road trip, take note, the hotel may well be haunted. Cleaning staff often sense cold spots. And some have even spotted full body apparitions. One story tells of a woman who heard the water turn on in the lobby bathroom, despite having entered alone.
Em Schulz: I hate that.
Christine Schiefer: She opened her stall to see a woman in old fashioned clothing who asked her whether she was enjoying her stay.
Em Schulz: No, I'm not. Not anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. When the woman responded in the affirmative, Yes, she, I am enjoying my stay, the apparition leaned in close and whispered, are you sure?
Em Schulz: That's a fake story? That has to be a fake story.
Christine Schiefer: And my response was, or my note in the book was, not anymore. I'm not sure what the fuck kind of question is that. Um, but yeah, that's a pretty famous one that apparently happened that she said, are you sure? And then just vanished. So.
Em Schulz: Anyways, hi Michelle. Um.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Anyways. Hi Michelle. Uh, we're all troubled here. Yes, yes. We admit it. That's the Claypool hotel and it's two murders and it's ghosts.
Em Schulz: The ghost was weirdly worse for me. The.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that. Horrible?
Em Schulz: That's just, that feels like that's cannot be real. That someone like, first of all, you would think if you, you, I would think you either hear of a sink going off or water running or something when you're not, not in the room or you, uh, you see something or you hear her talking and you don't hear her talking twice.
Christine Schiefer: I think you're jealous.
Em Schulz: Like in response. Maybe I am, but.
Christine Schiefer: No, but I feel like you've told stories where it's like someone has a conversation and then they're just like, never were there.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Man it just feels.
Christine Schiefer: Or like an elevator operator who helps you with your bag and then like is never there. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Just, oh yeah. I just hate it. That was, um, well that was all bad and also good. Thank you so much for your time.
Christine Schiefer: Of course. I love it. This is the first ghost story I've told in like, years. And then I was like, that's not a real story [laughter] I'm like, cool, I guess I'll leave it to you next time.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I just totally just like stole your... I'm like, no, no, don't take my job from me actually. Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I loved it 'cause you were scared by it, so I'll take it. If it's fake, whatever.
Em Schulz: It worked. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But it scared you so.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh my gosh. Well, um, yike-a-roonies, well what a, what a great plug for the, for the book.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I thought. I was like, oh, it can't hurt to like tell a story from the book. And, um, you know, I didn't do many that have like, so some of them have like QR codes in the book where you can go listen to like a full episode on it.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Now, now they're.
Christine Schiefer: Now You can tape this, you can like just like write it in with a sharpie or if you're coming to one of our book signings, maybe I'll write it. Episode blah, blah, blah.
Em Schulz: Maybe we'll just, maybe we could have a stamp of a QR code to this episode.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And we just stamp it in the book. Actually that's a great idea.
Christine Schiefer: We should get stickers and just sticker, like just hand out stickers. Be like, stick this somewhere on page 214 or whatever. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we'll put a thing, uh, at the top or something that says like, this is also featured in this book. That way they cross promote each other [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh I love that. That's great.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, well, well done Christine. I'm very excited, uh, of all, of all this though, I'm most excited for you to tell me all about your time with your own fortune teller recently. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Your, you, was it a, a medium that you spoke with?
Christine Schiefer: It was a psychic medium. She told me to not go upstairs in a building. No, she didn't say that. That's not really...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I really had a heart attack for a second.
Christine Schiefer: Just kidding. No, she did tell me some really weird things though. So I am going to talk about that in the after chat. Uh, the after darks.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Let's, let's go do that. If you're part of Patreon, come on over with us. And I, I am very excited to hear what, what warnings someone has given Christine that I know she will not follow Up.
Christine Schiefer: It's not warnings. It's not warnings. She was like, there's nothing to be scared of. And I was like, well, now I'm scared. I guess.
Em Schulz: It's like, so you're telling me I can't be scared of anything really?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Sounds like you were given bad information.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: I, I know there's something to be scared of. Okay, well I'll see you over there.
Christine Schiefer: See you soon.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
