[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hello.
Em Schulz: Hi. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Look what I got.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It came. It came.
Em Schulz: Uh, I was... I was wondering if you would get any of your presents.
Christine Schiefer: It came Saturday. Umm, it's a little... Everything was late. My gift from Maggie was also late. Umm, my...
Em Schulz: Weird.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Everything came late. My brother's too. Uh, so, and they said... They... Like, people were getting notifications, saying like, "It's on time." And then it...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Didn't arrive, so.
Em Schulz: All my stuff... Well, I made sure all my stuff would get sent on the 4th, and then it all on the 4th said, "Your stuff got delivered." And I went, "Okay. Phew." And then we remember what happened there.
Christine Schiefer: Well, the salmon, we figured out folks came at 11 or 10:23 PM, so everyone was in bed. And so I didn't know there was salmon on my porch...
Em Schulz: LOL.
Christine Schiefer: Until the next day.
Em Schulz: Did it stay cool? Did you eat it? You don't have to eat it.
Christine Schiefer: I ate all... I literally ate all of it. I just finished it.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, okay. And you didn't... You... You really...
Christine Schiefer: The first day I ate it and I thought, let's see what happens.
Em Schulz: Okay. [chuckle] And nothing happened?
Christine Schiefer: No adverse effects. Then I waited a few hours, tried it again, no adverse effects.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Then I just ate the rest of it, so.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well that's... Okay. Good. You know, I can never tell if it's, uh, your chronic illness or your chronic delusion that is giving you stomach problems. But at least we know that day somehow it wasn't the salmon.
Christine Schiefer: I don't have stomach problems. I have... Literally, I have a stomach problem when my... Like, I have a stomach of steel as you know, I can eat anything and everything.
Em Schulz: It's on garbage disposal.
Christine Schiefer: I'm a garbage disposal until my Crohn's flares up and then it's like, "Stop."
Em Schulz: What's one thing you won't eat? Garbage?
Christine Schiefer: Pork.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. That's fair.
Christine Schiefer: You know that about me.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I never know if you're gonna have a different opinion with the wind.
Christine Schiefer: No, I can't eat pork. That's the only thing that really just sends me into a very bad place.
Em Schulz: Mentally and physically?
Christine Schiefer: Not mentally, physically.
Em Schulz: Well, I don't know. I know you, like, are... You love on the pigs.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yes. I like pigs too, [laughter] but pork's the only thing I cannot eat. Umm, and I guess now something else since I'm covered in a rash all the time, but I haven't figured that out yet. Umm, but yes, I got... Oh, by the way, when I said, look what I have everyone, it's, umm... I mean, Em sent me this little Amelia Earhart... What is he? A little...
Em Schulz: Well, octopus, I think.
Christine Schiefer: A little octopus. I love him. He's so cute and...
Em Schulz: I, I recently discovered that Christine loves Amelia Earhart.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, in third grade I made a, umm, diorama about her. And every time I say diorama, my brother's like, "It wasn't a diorama, it was a two-liter bottle with a styrofoam head." And I'm like, "But it's easier to, like, say diorama, people like get it." But technically, it was a two-liter bottle with a big styrofoam head, and then I made Amelia Earhart and did a presentation on her.
Em Schulz: I would say diorama.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Umm, but I knew you liked her and I was just, you know, surfing the web, uh, taking a drive on the information super highway. And you know what I found? Found me a little octopus looked like Amelia Earhart. So I went, all right, I'll throw her in my basket.
Christine Schiefer: She's such a cutie pie. This is what Blaise and Leona got me, a little crocodile from the aquarium, so I'm gonna...
Em Schulz: So they could swim together.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm gonna... Oh, yeah. They're both little... So I'm gonna put them up here and then...
Em Schulz: I like her little glasses.
Christine Schiefer: I know. They're so cute, so.
Em Schulz: Oh, what a sweetie pie.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'll get...
Em Schulz: Do octopus, octopi and alligators, do they go in the same spot when they swim in...
Christine Schiefer: No, sir. Certainly not.
Em Schulz: Okay. I don't know. One's the ocean, one's lakes. Is that right?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I would say a river. Think about like the Nile.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The swamps of Florida, that kind of thing. I mean, alligators and crocodiles are different. But alligators are North America, Crocs are, you know, elsewhere.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. In another world, you ran a zoo.
Christine Schiefer: I would never run a zoo. Maybe a rehabilitation center.
Em Schulz: You'd be a... You'd be an Irwin.
Christine Schiefer: I would love to. That would be... I would love to. That would be a dream. Umm, except for the part where I have to do physical labor of any sort.
Em Schulz: Okay. So... Do you put...
Christine Schiefer: What if... What if I sat on the board? What if I...
Em Schulz: Sitting is nice, I'd say.
Christine Schiefer: I wore a polo shirt and I sat on the board of a...
Em Schulz: Not a polo. I wouldn't do it for a polo. Flannel?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, remember when I wore polos back in the day?
Em Schulz: Remember when people wore two polos at a time? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. What were we thinking? What? Remember when they wore shirts with blouses sewn into them?
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: Like it wasn't even a full blouse, it was just like the collar, and then the, like, tails of it were sewn in.
Em Schulz: You know, and it is... I'm gonna be infuriated when it comes back 'cause I'm gonna be like, "I'm sorry, everyone fucking told me I was such a nerd."
Christine Schiefer: Out of control.
Em Schulz: "I was such a loser for wearing this, and now everyone else is gonna get high praise for something I endured daily?"
Christine Schiefer: "For this like, unique fashion choice? Yeah. Fuck you."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know? I'm in a real fuck-you mood currently, so I, I would like to say it to anyone who wants to ever wear a double popped collar who ever said anything to me about it when I did it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Losers. Uh, is that why you drink this weekend?
Em Schulz: I guess so. Sure. Uh, yeah. I don't have anything going on.
Christine Schiefer: Put double polos. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Double polos. [0:05:38.3] ____, you know, that should...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, how...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Hang on. How is your mom? Your mom was in town. You did a whole week of... Week of activities...
Em Schulz: I did.
Christine Schiefer: And all that. That's not why you drink?
Em Schulz: No. I mean, it was, uh... It was... It was fun. It was... I'm a little fried from... I was trying to make sure that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I bet. I mean, so much touristy stuff you had to do. So many activities.
Em Schulz: It's more mainly a lot of driving, which I guess is like, uh, a normal LA thing, but...
Christine Schiefer: That's a touristy thing for LA. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I feel like once I moved into my own neighborhood, usually when people come to town, I just wanna like show them like my little area versus like drive them long distances. But it seemed that every day we had to do like a whole hour drive before we could get to stuff, so.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Well, I saw on Facebook, on Linda's Facebook that you went all the way to, uh...
Em Schulz: The West Side?
Christine Schiefer: Venice.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, that was... It was fun when we got there, but man, that drive was really killer. Umm, but yeah, no, she had a good time. Uh, we surprised her, she kept trying to celebrate my birthday and then I'd go, uh uh uh. Here's another thing. Umm, she came to see the house. She saw the house for maybe three minutes and then we...
Christine Schiefer: Why?
Em Schulz: And then we never saw it again. 'Cause we...
Christine Schiefer: Had stuff to do?
Em Schulz: Well, there was nothing to do once you saw the house. It was not like we had anything to move in.
Christine Schiefer: And what did she... What did she think?
Em Schulz: Uh, she liked it and... Which I... She'd already seen... I think she'd studied the pictures already, so there really wasn't much to... I think she just wanted to be put in it. It's like to say that she had been in it, but she knew that house...
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: Inside and out.
Christine Schiefer: She wanted to be put in the house. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: She just wanted to stand there like a VR game, and be like, "Oh wow, I'm actually there."
Christine Schiefer: And go like this?
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Just kind of pat, pat around.
Christine Schiefer: Do that like, like that weird, uh, tilting that the Sims do, and then they go like, "Wasa wasa." And scratch their head. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Just like, I don't know, we're kind of like have a freakout.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. For no reason.
Em Schulz: She had a good time at the house, and then we just kinda... We got distracted with all other sorts of stuff. But, uh, yeah, that was fun. Uh, and then I think honestly one of the best things that happened though was Allison and I really haven't like relaxed in a very long time. We've... Uh, in a very long time, at least in the same room. Umm, and so we had a pajama day yesterday, which was nice, where we just...
Christine Schiefer: Aww, that's fun.
Em Schulz: We intentionally woke up around noon and then did not get out of our pajamas or get off of the couch until she had to go to bed. It was...
Christine Schiefer: I love that for you though.
Em Schulz: A very...
Christine Schiefer: That's delightful.
Em Schulz: Good, good day. So anyway, that's why I drink.
Christine Schiefer: I love it when you go... My favorite is when you go to bed and you're like, "Oh, I'm already in my jammies." [laughter]
Em Schulz: We literally changed out of our jammies to have a pajama day set of jammies. We had like themed jammies, so.
Christine Schiefer: That's cute.
Em Schulz: Umm, and now we are, uh, on our X-Men kick because a new Marvel movie's coming out next month and we gotta catch up. So it seems every day we're watching a new X-Men movie, but that means that Allison is making themed drinks, so...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: Uh, we're expanding our minds and our palates. And that's also why I drink.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's remarkable. I'm so happy for you.
Em Schulz: Why do you drink, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I was gonna give you a reason then I remembered, the real reason is Blaise broke his face.
Em Schulz: All of it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well...
Em Schulz: What part?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. Em, it's like...
Em Schulz: Actually like the bones broke in his face?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Is he alive?
Christine Schiefer: He's fine.
Em Schulz: Is he okay?
Christine Schiefer: Uh...
Em Schulz: Is he home?
Christine Schiefer: He's home now. Okay. Here's what happened. He had a jiu-jitsu tournament.
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I...
Em Schulz: He, he lost. It sounds like he lost.
Christine Schiefer: He, he called me. I said, "How'd it go?" He said, "Not as expected." I said, "Oh, you lost?" He said, "No, I won."
Em Schulz: Oh. I...
Christine Schiefer: I said, "Oh, well that's great." And he said, "Yeah, but the guy elbowed me in the face and it's broken." And I said, "What do you mean it, your nose?" And he's like, "No, my face." And I was like, "How does your face break?" And he's like, "Well, the orbital bone is broken." And I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: "Are you lying right now?" And he's like, "No, I, I thought maybe it was just a cut." But then he's like, "They wash off the blood and then I went back into the match and finish and won the match."
Em Schulz: That's so badass.
Christine Schiefer: Then he walked off the mat and vomited and he's like... They were like, "Okay, you clearly have a concussion." So he went into...
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck.
Christine Schiefer: The bathroom to look at his face and he thought, oh, they washed it off. It's fine. He looked at the mirror and he went, "Nope, that needs stitches." Like, he worked in the ER for years. So like if he... Like he knows if he needs to go in. So he goes, "Yeah, that needs stitches." So he waited for like hours for his friend to finish his matches. He's like, "Well, Christine, he was up for gold." And I was like, "Okay, but your face is broken." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. That's... He... You know, he's Morgan Earp. He is the one where he is like, "My face... " I literally, like...
Christine Schiefer: Who's Morgan Earp?
Em Schulz: From like two episodes ago at the OK Corral, when he...
Christine Schiefer: You know I don't remember that. [laughter] How do you remember that?
Em Schulz: 'Cause we had like three different conversations about how he would just like throw his shoes on for a fight. But like, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't remember that at all.
Em Schulz: Blaise is definitely giving Morgan Earp energy by saying like, "Yeah, my face is broken in half, but I'm gonna stick around 'cause you're going for gold."
Christine Schiefer: He went back into the match, and so... Yeah, so then he's like on his way home and he's like, "I gotta go to the ER." And I was like, "Well, so you have a concussion, like, are you okay to drive?" He goes, "Yeah, I'm fine. I just keep forgetting some words." And I'm like, "This is scaring me." So then he goes to the ER, they do a CT scan and his fucking orbital bone is just like fucking broken as shit. And they're telling him, "Oh well you have four... " And Blaise is like explaining this to me, "Four optic nerves from your eye." And they're worried that one of the bones could have like gotten caught on an optic nerve. I'm so sorry. It's so horrible and sick. And so...
Em Schulz: I like how none of those words he forgot. He was just able... All those he could explain to you.
Christine Schiefer: No. Yeah. Oh, it's just horrifying. And so anyway, he looks like his face got hit with a baseball bat and he has to go see like a, a facial surgeon, and it's just like such a mess. But I just feel terrible because the guy like apparently just full-on like swung his elbow right into Blaise's face. Like totally not cool. Umm...
Em Schulz: Is that... Is that even like a... Like a legal move?
Christine Schiefer: No, it not allowed. No. No. Umm, but the guy didn't get disqualified. So now Blaise's coach is all pissed and like they're... Anyway, the guy apologized, but apparently, the guy's coach was a real asshole about it and was like, "Uh, he's off the mat for five whole minutes. He should be disqualified." And Blaise is like, "Well, you broke my face. So yeah, let me wipe the blood off."
Em Schulz: What color is his eyeball right now?
Christine Schiefer: Black. Oh. The eyeball? It's the normal color, but it's just like black here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like it looks like someone took a Sharpie to his face.
Em Schulz: And how does it... How does something like that heal? 'Cause you can't really set your face.
Christine Schiefer: You have to get surgery. Like okay, maybe they're gonna see, I guess, when the swelling goes down, he has to go see if he needs surgery to like set it. But I don't know. I don't really know beyond that. He's probably gonna hear this and be like, "That's not how it works." I don't know. All I know is that for now, his vision is okay, which is good 'cause it means probably it didn't impact the optic nerve, but his face is broken.
Em Schulz: All I know is in Law & Order, every other victim has an orbital fracture or something or an orbital break.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It sounds painful.
Em Schulz: It's, uh... So I'm just used to that being like something only like people who aren't alive anymore have experienced.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh. You mean the dead people in SVU? I did not catch onto that. I see. Uh, [laughter] yeah. I think it's probably a common one like when you get just hit right in the face, like right smack in the middle of the face. Umm, but yeah. So that sucks. And so that's why I drink this week because, uh, poor thing. He... And he's... He just walked in and he was like, "I'm sad." Because now he has to...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Take a break and now he has to go to this facial surgeon, and this whole thing just sucks. And I think the reason I... Like, usually, as you know, I'm very in like a... In like an emergency. I'm usually just like...
Em Schulz: Chill.
Christine Schiefer: I'm ready. I'm chill. But this, I'm not used to being the one who's witnessing the medical... Like I'm usually the one in the medical emergency and I'm fine.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think you're prepared to take care of yourself, not other people.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like usually when something happens, I'm like, "Don't worry everyone, I'm fine. It's just that my tooth broke in half in the middle of the night."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Or like, "Don't worry, I just fell out of this cave." Or whatever. Umm...
Em Schulz: My eardrum burst. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: My ear, I just stuck something and broke my eardrum, you know, all the usual things. Umm, there's lemon juice stuck in my ear canal, et cetera. But this time I'm like, "Well, I can't do anything." I just have to sit there and his face is broken and it is terrible, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah. How long does it heal? Do you know? Like is his concussion over?
Christine Schiefer: No, I have no concept. I have no concept. I mean, he is alive and well and walking around, so I...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I, I think he's...
Em Schulz: Can he drive right now?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he can drive. He seems all right.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, he just seems very like out of it a little bit, like...
Em Schulz: How do you explain that to Leona?
Christine Schiefer: We said he got an owie.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, he sure did.
Christine Schiefer: And then... And then she gave him an Encanto bandaid.
Em Schulz: For... And then slapped it right on his face. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, we do not let her touch his face. But guess what we opened last night?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: The doctor kit from Funcle Em.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. That one's sitting in the... In the backrooms. Hasn't it? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I told you. I keep... I keep these things because she has enough of fucking toys. She gets toys every frigging other day from people like her grandparents and...
Em Schulz: Like me? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And you. And like we're... If we go to Target, well she'll get in little dollar section thing. So I'm like, you know, I try to like keep the rate of toys slow, you know, but so then when this medical thing happened and she started getting really into like putting bandaids on us and stuff, I was like, "Oh, well, Funcle Em got you this really nice gift. Should we open it?" And it was right there and we put it together and she ran around the house giving everybody checkups and, umm, she loved it, Em. So I'm gonna send you some photos later.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. She's gotta give dad a checkup a couple of times now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, she's gotta... I think he needs more than just a plastic mallet on his knee, but we can... We can try.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, as long as it's not a plastic mallet to the face, I guess we're good. Umm, is he... Is he in pain current... Like still?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like as bad as the day it happened?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so it's... It was very numb, which he... Is good and bad, 'cause numb means nerve damage, but it also means less owie. So then at one point, I witnessed him touch his eye and he started screaming.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And it, it scared me so bad 'cause it's like a broken bone. And so he like accidentally touched the eye and just started screaming. And I was like, I have to leave the room.
Em Schulz: Can he see? Like he has to put glasses on or contacts or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he can see fine.
Em Schulz: Okay. Oh my God. I'm sorry. I'm asking so many questions, but go on. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And now every... No, no. I, I... And I'm like... I didn't even ask if I could talk about this, but he... I think he assumes, uh... He knows... He knows by now.
Em Schulz: I think when you break your face, you have somehow also lost the ability to control people talking about it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And I think once you marry me, you have really lost the ability to decide what I talk about.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway, so yeah. He's okay. But it was very scary. Umm...
Em Schulz: Can he eat?
Christine Schiefer: He's...
Em Schulz: Because the jawbone rubbing up and down, moving up on...
Christine Schiefer: He can eat. I think it's probably uncomfy though.
Em Schulz: Can you kiss?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm not sure. I haven't tried.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This was yesterday.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe the day before. Umm...
Em Schulz: The, the irony is that he probably needs so many extra kisses right now, and he just can't get them.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Well, I keep like hugging his arm. I'm like, this is as close as I can get. I don't wanna go near you. Like, I don't even wanna like make him wince, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm like just very delicately...
Em Schulz: I would literally lock... I would lock myself in a room. I'd be like, "Nobody talk to me until this is over."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I would Rapunzel myself. I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: It's just like... To break a bone in your face. I mean, Jesus Christ as... You and I just talked about how you've never broken a bone. We just talked about this, didn't we?
Em Schulz: Maybe we're... Hold on... I'm gonna... I'm gonna text Allison to be extra careful today, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say I'm knocking on my head like, tell Allison...
Em Schulz: It sounds like we got a curse going on.
Christine Schiefer: I know she has that jiu-jitsu tournament today. Tell her to please forfeit her match. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You know what's wild though? Is I really... This is like so, umm, childish, but I think of Blaise as indestructible.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I don't know why, but he's really got like that vibe of like he's always got everything handled. So...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I talked to Renee and I said, it feels like when your parent cries in front of you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or like... And you feel like, "Wait a minute, that's my job. I'm supposed to be crying." Or...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm supposed... You're supposed to help me be... Be medically healed, you know? And I'm like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not used to this way. So last night, I was literally... And this is... This is what my... This is what our marriage is. I mean, it's gonna be a surprise to no one, but it's exactly as people picture. He's lying there and he is going to bed early. And first of all, he's putting on his sleep goggles, you know, sleep mask. And I'm like, "Don't put that on your face." I'm like, all freaked out.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But he puts it on and then he lays down, and he just like looks so sad and hurt and his face is all black and blue. And I was like, "Can I give you reiki?" And he's like, "Yes, please."
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And so I just sat there and reiki-ed. I gave him reiki, and...
Em Schulz: I feel like you know he's really hurt when he's the skeptic of the family, and he is like, reiki sounds fucking great.
Christine Schiefer: I know. He was like, "Yes." And I said, "Are you sure?" He is like, "Mm-hmm." And so I gave him reiki. And then, umm... And then as I was giving him reiki, I heard him start... He fell asleep. So I was like...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Aww, that's nice.
Em Schulz: Man, it sounds like you have the perfect power to make people snooze.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I'm like I never get to use these magic fingers.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That was weird.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, well...
Christine Schiefer: I should have used them on your heart.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. That would've been really nice.
Christine Schiefer: Come here. Come here. Em, come here.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That would've saved me a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: Get a little closer.
Em Schulz: That would saved me a lot of money and trauma. Yeah. So thanks for doing that a little late.
Christine Schiefer: Trauma, maybe not, I can't promise it goes without that, but...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But I don't charge a fee. Okay? Yet.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yet.
Em Schulz: Well that's nice. Uh, as long as you can put me to sleep, uh, which your couch already does. So you've...
Christine Schiefer: I do that all the time. It's amazing how good I am at that.
Em Schulz: Oh, I feel so bad for him. Well, uh, I don't know. How are you as his caregiver currently? Are you feeling extra stressed of like having to like...
Christine Schiefer: This is where... I've really learned Em, that like I know people talk about it and it's such a, like, eye roll topic, the idea of an empath. And I don't know if there's a better word for it, but like I physically feel it. Like I need to physically remove... I mean, not physically, I need to actively...
Em Schulz: Separate yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Disengage like consciously, because I feel it, like in my body. Like it aches, it hurts, my skin hurts. Like I... Every time I'm around him, I'm like, "My body hurts." And I'm like, "Okay, this isn't helpful to him if I'm also just hurt." But so I like... It's proving to me again that I can genuinely like feel someone else's physical pain, which is the freakiest thing and like very eye-opening because I can tell myself like, "Oh, this isn't mine." 'Cause I'm like, "Why am I suddenly so in... In so much pain?" And then I'm like, "Oh, wait, that's not mine." I'm just like near him and like, I don't know, absorbing it. I don't know how it works. But so I've been actively working on like setting that wall up and being like, no, no.
Em Schulz: Does it help not look at him? I know it's mean, but like 'cause like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If I saw someone with an obvious injury, I'd much more inclined to like tell myself I can feel it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which I'm not doubting you. I, I can't do that. But I could at least symbolically say I... Or, you know, whatever the word is.
Christine Schiefer: It's like that empathy feeling. Right? Like of like, oh, ow. Yeah. Umm...
Em Schulz: Like when we were talking about our ears last week, I was like, "Wow, my ears are so itchy." 'Cause you were talking about how itchy your ears are.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. It's... It does help. I mean, I'm even talking about it right now, I'm like, okay, just like, get out of me. But, yeah, man. I just like... I need to just set some better boundaries here. But, uh, what else is new, I guess. But anyway, otherwise, I'm good. I just... I'm worried about him, you know? I hope he doesn't need to... I hope the surgery's not too intense or anything, but it's always something, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know what to say. That sucks.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, sorry that I talked too much.
Em Schulz: That just sucks.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I think you're allowed to, someone broke their face, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, so when's he going back in the ring? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. He's like, "Well, I'm gonna stop by the gym today." I was like, "I'm gonna actually end you. I'm gonna end... I'll give you something to cry about." Is what I said. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh, classic.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. He doesn't know either.
Em Schulz: You could just use your fingers in reverse and like un-reiki him.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like...
[vocalization]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Anyway, I don't know. We'll see. But, umm... But, umm... Anyway, I'm ready for a story, Em. Please distract me.
Em Schulz: Uh, okay. Distract, distract, distract, distract. Uh, did that work?
Christine Schiefer: Actually, yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Great. We're onto... We're onto a, uh, good start. Okay. This is me telling you all about a very, very interesting tiny community in upstate New York called Lily Dale.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Okay.
Em Schulz: Fun fact, there are less than 300 people who live there.
Christine Schiefer: Fewer than. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Less than.
Christine Schiefer: Fewer than.
Em Schulz: Less than. I don't really... Out of spite, less than.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, there... It's two and a half hours away from Hydesville, which we discussed, uh, in the past when I covered the Fox Sisters, because that's where they lived. And Hydesville is, I think because of the Fox sisters, it is known as the birthplace of spiritualism.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Uh, and it was in episode 201, if you'd like to go check that out. Uh, but so it's two and a half hours from there. And before we get into Lily Dale itself, we'll talk about what was going on in the mid to late 1800s. We talk about literally all the time. I don't even need to tell you about the big boom in spiritualism. But at the same time, there was this upheaval, uh, in the scientific community because a lot of people were learning new things they hadn't ever learned before. Paleontology is getting big, we're learning about dinosaurs and fossils, and the ice age. Uh, technology is getting better, Morse code is invented, uh...
Christine Schiefer: I'm like losing my mind. Think about this time. There's trains everywhere, we got one-house school rooms, we've got spiritualism and Ouija boards. We've got...
Em Schulz: Say it, so...
Christine Schiefer: Fucking... What was the thing you said before Morse code? The other one.
Em Schulz: Dinosaurs. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Dinosaur, paleontology is happening.
Em Schulz: Can, can you imagine opening up the paper one day, you're so used to your, your hoop and stick, and then all of a sudden there's a picture of a fucking monster, and you're like, "This must be a silly little sketch." And then they're like, "These were real." I'm asking...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "This ain't the Sunday cartoons. This is a real thing we found." Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Imagine somebody drawing like a fucking fire-breathing dragon and putting it in the newspaper and going, "Oh, these were real." I know, like that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We all... Like we talk about...
Christine Schiefer: And some of them them flew.
Em Schulz: We talk about beasts, but they were actually among us. Yeah. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. My lord. Well, they weren't among us...
Em Schulz: I can't imagine my...
Christine Schiefer: Technically, unless you're a creationist. But yes.
Em Schulz: My, my black coffee and my boiled chicken at the diner, and you just open up the paper and you're like, "Oh my God. Well, is this a joke?"
Christine Schiefer: Is that your preferred... Was that your preferred meal at the diner? Why are you having...
Em Schulz: I don't think anyone had a preferred meal. I assume like the simplest... The simplest foods were...
Christine Schiefer: A boiled chicken. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Were served just like cooked chicken. It doesn't matter how.
Christine Schiefer: No. Remember they had celery vases, they had...
Em Schulz: Oh, right. Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you had to be rich for that. But they had jello, remember, they found out about gelatin and they put everything in jello.
Em Schulz: I think that was the... Was that the 19 like 60s or something? I just was looking up recipes about jello...
Christine Schiefer: Well, there was a big surge of jello back then. Yes. But I think...
Em Schulz: Yucko.
Christine Schiefer: The discovery happened in the Victorian era. Is that...
Em Schulz: I think you're right. I...
Christine Schiefer: I could be wrong.
Em Schulz: I think gelatin and I don't know if jello... I don't know. That'll be another deep dive. Umm, but you might be onto something there. I, I imagine also because in today's world, there's so many people where facts are being put in front of them and they're like, I don't know about this. Imagine the upper east side of the 1800s learning about a fucking dinosaur. Like, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you'd be like, excuse... Like you'd be... You... What? If you lived in...
Em Schulz: And not even the Upper East Side. Imagine like the people in the Sticks, like imagine the Beverly Hillbillies...
Christine Schiefer: Who had cows.
Em Schulz: Learning about fucking dinosaurs. They're like, "What? You have to be kidding me."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You'd... Like no wonder, you'd be like skeptical of everything.
Em Schulz: Anything. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They say there's monsters in the sky, some...
Christine Schiefer: There's dragons. Right.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Which like when, when dinosaurs were first discovered, I don't think there must have been a, a difference between that and dragons.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Also, like I wonder how... Well this is a deep dive for another day. But I'm trying to figure out the... When dragons became part of the zeitgeist, like even in drawings and books. 'Cause I think about them in medieval times.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: They must have... So they must have had... Umm, I'm assuming if they knew in the Middle Ages about dragons...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: That, that dinosaurs would've been what they associate that with. Or do we just assume...
Christine Schiefer: Oooh.
Em Schulz: Do we just assume that dragons were part of medieval times when nobody was thinking about dragons back then?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I know dragons, I believe have a, uh... Are ancient Chinese...
Em Schulz: That's right.
Christine Schiefer: History. So I don't know. I don't know if that... Like it's a mythology from back then, but, uh, that was thousands and thousands of years ago. But I don't know, umm, how...
Em Schulz: Anyway, all crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway...
Em Schulz: All crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Crazy. I'm sure there's a podcast somewhere we can learn about this.
Em Schulz: About... Uh, like putting... It'd be fun to hear an episode, which maybe I'll be the one that covers it. Uh, dinosaurs and spiritualism happening at the same time. That's crazy. Umm, so...
Christine Schiefer: That Is crazy.
Em Schulz: Anyway, we're learning about dinosaurs, we're learning about technology, Morse code. Do you know what the first message was in Morse code?
Christine Schiefer: SOS.
Em Schulz: You would think. Umm, what hath God wrought.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Not SOS.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Christ. That's... Whoa, whoa. Coming in hot. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, and that's...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I bet the response was IDK.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: My BFF, Jill. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, a lot of discoveries are happening, uh, at this time. It is freaking the Christians out because people are going against Christian teachings, they're eager for something new. And also, like part of the Christian teachings is like, "Oh, don't doubt or question or worry about anything. Just accept things you can't see with your own eyes." And now...
Christine Schiefer: But he also lives up in the sky, and he does magic miracles and he rose from the dead. So, but that's not magic. That's different.
Em Schulz: Right, right. Uh... [laughter] exactly. Uh, and so I think... Well, they were... They were pissed off. They were like, "What do you mean you wanna see things to believe them? Like that is not how we've been doing things." And...
Christine Schiefer: "It's ridiculous."
Em Schulz: Luckily though, uh, for these people, spiritualism, yes, it was pitched to science, but it was pitched to science while still being faith-based. So a lot of Christians, it became a slippery slope into spiritualism.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, many people thought like if it was rooted in Christianity and God is real and the afterlife is real, and souls are real, why not just try to observe it? Like it's... We're not doubting that it exists, we just wanna see proof of it. If that makes sense. So spiritualism snagged a couple of Christians.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think that's still the case because I feel like I follow a few spiritualists and/or people who, who are... Who do like psychic mediumship and, umm, some of them do very... Are Christian. I mean, usually a broader type of Christianity that's not very like super biblical, but like, you know, I feel like that's still a, a common belief held by a lot of people, even spiritual people.
Em Schulz: Oh. I mean, even with me. I mean, I don't at all identify as Christian, but when I stop and think about like my relationship with spirituality, it definitely starts from a Christian tenet, which like, I don't even... It does... I don't mean for that to happen, but I think, oh, there's a higher power or there's a higher something, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think there's a lot of overlap that we don't necessarily realize. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's... That's just kind of the, the way that it spread throughout the, the world that I think a lot of people start with this basic core of there's something else out there and it's smarter or more powerful than me, or there's something we don't understand. I mean, which I guess that comes from quite a few religions. But, uh, anyway, the Christians, some of them were very mad about spiritualism at first, especially because even though it was entrenched in Christianity, it had people expanding their relationship with the universe. Umm, a lot of spiritualists were calling themselves freethinkers at the time, and because they were already having this fringe belief compared to traditional Christianity, they were more open-minded to other movements such as women's suffrage, and abolitionism.
Christine Schiefer: Shit. Oh shit. It's happening.
Em Schulz: And free love.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, say it ain't so.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And so it just kind of became this, uh... I think they maybe were, uh, stretching the word from spiritualism to just freethinkers because they wanted to encompass all people who were, I guess...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: I guess in today's world they... We... Even though they're called freethinkers, which is kind of ironic, uh, I would say they're like critically thinking a little more of like, oh, well, why does this mean this and why does this mean this? And...
Christine Schiefer: Or they're just more maybe open-minded. Like they're just more accepting, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's a good way to put it too.
Christine Schiefer: In general.
Em Schulz: They... Umm, one community and that's... Yeah. Because I'm sure there were some like actual fringe, not-so-great communities that were in the freethinking movement. You know? We probably... It probably spanned quite a range.
Christine Schiefer: Probably both. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but in the New York Times, uh, they said... Uh, this was an article about the freethinkers. It said, members of the spiritualism religion generally welcomed other novel beliefs of the time, including vegetarianism and environmentalism, in addition to women's rights. There was a synergy between all these movements and new ideologies helping them all expand. So they were... It was like once you fell into the fold, you just kind of... Everything about you started...
Christine Schiefer: Slippery slope.
Em Schulz: Waking up, waking up. Woke, woke-ass freethinkers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and like on... They were kind of playing onto each other because if you were in the spiritualism movement, you would be hearing more about women's suffrage, which was like a big thing at the exact same time.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So they played into each other very well. And they kind of gave and take from their communities because if you were into spiritualism, you kind of ended up being involved in women's suffrage and learning more about, you know, feminism and all that. And in turn, it was very feminist to be in spiritualism because it gave women a lot of rights that they didn't have. It got them into careers by going into mediumship, or doing maybe some public speaking, which they weren't totally allowed to do all the time. They could stand up for themselves and speak out on these things. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: So, uh, during this time of big change, a lot of it happens to be going on in upstate New York. It was like kind of the epicenter of all of these woke groups of people all hanging out together.
Christine Schiefer: Who knew?
Em Schulz: Umm, it even became known as the burned-over district because there were so many movements blowing through the area like wildfire.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. So there's like scorched earth like next...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Next.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Uh, in 1858, there's this guy named Jeremiah Carter, and he founded like a church of the freethinkers, the Religious Society of Freethinkers. He... Although that sounds really cool, I do wanna state that his whole thing is that he wanted to, uh, build the societies, so that way they could practice mesmerism, which I covered in episode 338. And it was very much like the healing of hands and... You know, I...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Talk about slippery slope. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Slippery slope. And I will say, again, I know this is kind of like a touch and go, uh, excuse, but I will say it was a different time and maybe he really was... He didn't know as much about it as we do now, and he was like, "I just wanna know more." And didn't know how popular it's gonna be.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm over here talking about reiki, so, you know, it's like a lot of this stuff does kind of merge.
Em Schulz: Yeah, well, it definitely merges.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think, uh, when you... And maybe it's because you're my friend and I justify all of your insanity.
Christine Schiefer: All of it.
Em Schulz: But when I... When I think of...
Christine Schiefer: It's the best, you guys. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, like even today, I think we would all agree that, you know, in the range of healing of hands, yes, reiki exists, yes, mesmerism exists. One involves like full fucking consent from another person and like, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, you can't even perform reiki without asking somebody first. But with mesmerism it was like, let me, uh, do some really shady shit and like... And not help people at all. And it might be a little intentional.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I feel like there's a... There's been at least... I don't know what reiki was like back then. Umm, so, you know, maybe these things all go in waves and get more parameters added. But I feel like back then... Or, umm, but now with reiki especially, there are parameters of like, like you said, consent, and umm, also just the idea that it's only for the... Good and also the idea that, uh, you aren't like curing cancer, you know what I mean? Like there's not this idea... It's like, yes, energy healing and stuff, and people believe it to certain different extents, but nobody... Well, I wouldn't say nobody, but most respectable practitioners are not saying like, "I will fix your broken face." Like, "I will heal your orbital bone with my hands." You know? Its like a different...
Em Schulz: I think one of the... One of the major ingredients maybe is narcissism.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like... It's like... Of which like tells you how, how far... How deep we're going 'cause like, maybe it's like, "Oh, here's what I can provide realistically. Are you down with that?" All... And the... And then the spectrum goes all the way down to like, "I am God and I will heal you today."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's...
Christine Schiefer: Whether you like it or not. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Exactly. So, umm, maybe that's... I... That's the range that we're talking about. But...
Christine Schiefer: And that could very well be.
Em Schulz: So I don't know where he fell, but I do know that mesmerism in hindsight was problematic.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, so I don't know if he knew that, I don't know if he just wanted to learn more about it. I mean, he could have wanted to learn about it the way I wanted to learn about it and just like give a report on it, so.
Christine Schiefer: And see what's up.
Em Schulz: But he, he founded this society with the plans to study mesmerism. Somewhere along the line, he is now contacting spirits and they are giving him instructions. So I think I know where on the spectrum he was, where he was... Uh, the spectrum of mesmerism, by the way. Umm, sorry.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh right. There's many spectrums.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think I know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. I didn't mean... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Umm, but anyway, I heard it and I went, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't even hear it. I was like, la, la, la.
Em Schulz: Well, so, uh. Yeah. He's, he's talking to spirits who are telling him what to do and he is moving accordingly throughout the world. And I guess somewhere in the... In the 1870s, uh, these ghosts say, hey, there's this guy named Willard Alden, and he has land that is made specifically for mediums and seances, and you need to go build a camp on his property.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. It's starting to get sketchy again.
Em Schulz: Yeah. All of a sudden it's like, uh, was Willard Alden involved?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. This sounds weird now, suddenly.
Em Schulz: So Jeremiah, apparently... I'm guessing he just grabbed his one un-wheelable suitcase and goes over to Willard Alden and says, knock, knock, knock. I'm here to build fucking camps on your property whether or not you want it. And honestly, maybe Willard Alden was also so into the spiritualism world that he opened the door and this man said, the spirit's told me I have to be here. And he just let him right in.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So, who knows? Jeremiah builds his camp, he calls it Lily Dale, which is the topic of today.
Christine Schiefer: Pretty.
Em Schulz: And, uh, it's because of all the lilies. Fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was like, "Who is Lily?" Okay, it's the flower. That's nice.
Em Schulz: I thought the same thing. I looked high and low for the reason why it was called Lily Dale. And apparently, it's because...
Christine Schiefer: I'm glad you did 'cause I was gonna ask. So thank you for preparing that for me.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, you gotta know what's in a name, you know?
Christine Schiefer: What's in a... And that's... And I always say that. You know I always I've always said. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I always will. And I always will.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, he calls it... Oh, I'm sorry. Not even Lily Dale. Lily Dale is I guess the town.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But if you live there, you are part of the Lily Dale Assembly.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's essentially their HOA, I guess, their board.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Their big... Their big board. Uh, and Lily Dale hosts summer camps for spiritualists and all freethinkers as of the 1870s, which sounds... I mean, you and I would have slipped into so many cults at that time. I... We'd...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We'd be fucked. Who are we kidding?
Em Schulz: Uh, I mean, the, the way that it was... Again, imagine me with my black coffee and my boiled chicken at the diner, and then I see in...
Christine Schiefer: I can't stop imagining.
Em Schulz: In the classifieds, right under a, a sketch of a fucking dinosaur, it says, come to our summer camp where you can be a medium.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, the newspaper had to be insane, I think.
Christine Schiefer: And then they're like, "Hey, we'll fix your ailments." And since Remicade hasn't existed yet, I'm like, "Please, fix me with your fucking hands, God."
Em Schulz: That's such a good point. It's not even in my notes, but I think that's, I... Well done. Because think of how many people fell into this just because there was chronic illness with no support.
Christine Schiefer: Chronic pain. Yeah. Imagine like even a toothache, like things that you weren't necessarily able to get rid of or treat.
Em Schulz: And there's so many reasons why I feel... I have a lot of sympathy, and I have a lot of initial sympathy for people who end up in cults, especially...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: The farther back in history you go because there was nowhere else to turn a lot of times. So, I get it.
Christine Schiefer: And people who run cults are, uh, you know, they know what they're doing.
Em Schulz: Convincing.
Christine Schiefer: They know what they're doing.
Em Schulz: They're... They know the act of a schmooze, and I eat that shit up. I love a schmooze, so...
Christine Schiefer: Gotta love it.
Em Schulz: I would... I would fall victim. I'd be their first one, first prey.
Christine Schiefer: And I'd be the one saying, welcome to my new cult, Em.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's called And That's Why We Drink. Join us, won't you?
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's a... That's a part of... That's our, uh, past life history together.
Em Schulz: A thousand percent. Umm, one of us ruined the other.
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: And I don't know who it is.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody knows.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So Jeremiah creates these summer camps for all freethinkers. You don't even have to be totally into spiritualism, but if you... Like I said if you're kind of amongst...
Christine Schiefer: Open-minded.
Em Schulz: That community anyway, you... Maybe your friends are going, so then you wanna follow them, and then, yeah. So Lily Dale grows super fast. These summer camps are a smash hits. Uh, by 1900, which is, uh, 100 years later... I actually saw one source that said within nine years.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: So from 9 to 100 years later, umm, the property is now 37 acres big.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: And it's become this major social hub for mediums and for all sorts of social activism. Susan B. Anthony spoke there, Elizabeth Cady Stanton spoke there.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, some people even lived at Lily Dale year-round 'cause they were just like, "Why would I leave this haven?"
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: Umm, and like I said, this was at the latest 1900, at the earliest, the 1870s. If you're a, a woman especially, you're just like, "Why on Earth would I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Hell yeah.
Em Schulz: "Why would I go anywhere else?" Umm, by 1890, uh, there were 11 million spiritualists in the country. There were over 35,000 practicing mediums.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And that means there were countless fraudulent practitioners out there.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Even the Fox sisters, who are the ones who are somehow indebted for being... They helped like in the creation of spiritualism, they were found out to be frauds. This is where I found out that Christine can crack her feet, which is... I just never wanna hear it again.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If you ever wanna listen to it yourself, you can go to that episode and enjoy. If you're a, a foot person.
Christine Schiefer: A sicko. No, not, not a sicko.
Em Schulz: You could also go to...
Christine Schiefer: Not being a foot person. A sicko who wants to hear me crack my feet. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you are a foot person, you could also go to Christine's wikifeet.com. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sad about that because they picked the worst photos for my wikiFeet. Whoever made that, like, come on. And it got like a B-, understandably so because... And I do have very nice feet. I just wish that I had gotten some better, uh, selections up there. And I didn't really...
Em Schulz: Would you like to show one right now so someone can screenshot it and put it on wikiFeet.
Christine Schiefer: Not right now. Uh, they're not...
Em Schulz: No?
Christine Schiefer: Ready for consumption just yet. Umm...
Em Schulz: Consumption. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I see. With the eyes. Not like, uh, the [0:42:33.6] ____. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. Either one. I would say probably not, not prepared. Umm, like one of them is just like me like pregnant and really sweat being outside. Like, why is that... I mean, I'm sure that's a thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but someone's into that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But it's not even like of my feet. Like, it's like...
Em Schulz: Fake piggies.
Christine Schiefer: It's like this big, you know, you can't even see them. It's all blurry. So I'm like, somebody get a better...
Em Schulz: That's called the... That's called the tease, maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. I...
Em Schulz: You know? But and so it's just like a sample.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And then I'm like, well, now I can't just post photos of my feet 'cause that's too obvious, right? If I'm just trying to up my score on WikiFeet. So I feel like I just have to play this...
Em Schulz: Yeah, I get that.
Christine Schiefer: Play the long game. Wait till there's a photo that... Where my feet look better. Post that one.
Em Schulz: Next time... Next time you're barefoot in front of me, I'll just snap a picture and we'll just see where it lands on the internet. How about that?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Thank you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's the real plot twist. What if I'm in charge of your entire wikiFeet account?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, what if you did this, and you've... You rated me, okay. Which is the rating that I have.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: I don't even have an account on wikiFeet, so I... Uh, are you winning or losing? I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: It's 'cause I'm always wearing sandals, that's why. You're not wearing sandals, you know.
Em Schulz: That's true. I am covered head to toe pretty often.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. Where are we? Oh, fraudulent mediums at this time. So all of a sudden there's this huge, essentially commune of mediums, and that means there's probably not a hundred percent honest people going to this... To this camp.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And spiritualists who consider themselves legitimate, uh, it's not that they're for an establishment or for an organization, but they do wanna do something about reducing the fraud. That way they could protect their own reputations. Umm, and by 1893, the National Spiritualist Association of Churches is founded. The first president is a resident of the Lily Dale Assembly. And the, the National Spiritualist Association of Churches, the NSAC, the NSAC, they create these principles to live by, I guess as, uh, an honor code. And if you are part of NSAC, these are your tenets, your core tenets. We believe in an infinite intelligence. Okay. A higher power. We believe that the phenomena of nature, both physical and spiritual, are the expression of this infinite intelligence.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's nice.
Em Schulz: That's nice. We affirm... I need your help by the way, Miss Fewer Than, because I can't read this sentence and not have my brain shut.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I... The words... The words don't...
Christine Schiefer: Compute.
Em Schulz: Click for me. We affirm that a correct understanding of such expression and living in accordance therewith constitute true religion.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So true religion is basically taking the former two points and living by them. That's, that's what they call religion.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: It is like living in, in a way where you view nature as an expression of a higher power.
Em Schulz: Okay. That's helpful. Thank you. I think the second I saw accordance therewith, I went, whoa.
Christine Schiefer: It's not...
Em Schulz: Am I in...
Christine Schiefer: It's not a nice...
Em Schulz: In court all of a sudden?
Christine Schiefer: It's not a nice word. Are you in what?
Em Schulz: Am I in court?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like that's something that only a judge would say.
Christine Schiefer: It does sounds like court, yeah it does.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. No, thank you how you did that 'cause I was like, uh, whatever that one is, I might not believe it. Okay. We affirm that the existence and personal identity of individuals, uh, continue after the change called death.
Christine Schiefer: That's cool. Okay.
Em Schulz: I like that they call it the change.
Christine Schiefer: Me too. Isn't that what they also called... Call menopause?
Em Schulz: It's like I... Yeah. We'll go through a few changes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We're always changing, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: But it is nice, it's... It somehow feels more healing when someone passes away to be like, "Oh, they're not gone, they just changed."
Christine Schiefer: I've heard transition. I've heard change. I've heard pass.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then there's two more. We affirm that communication with the so-called dead is a fact, scientifically proven by the phenomena of spiritualism. All right. That one I'm wishy-washy on, but I could... I could vibe with it.
Christine Schiefer: Because of the fact thing?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Saying scientifically proven by, it's like, well...
Christine Schiefer: That's a stretch.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's a stretch. And then the last one is, we believe that the highest morality is contained in the golden rule; do unto others as you would have done... Them done unto you.
Christine Schiefer: All right. I mean, that's, I guess, fair.
Em Schulz: Don't be a dick.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's a good rule.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so in 1880... 1898, a New York Times reporter writes that a quarter million people are visiting Lily Dale each year.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Which like, again, with your non-wheeled suitcases, and no planes...
Christine Schiefer: So much mud.
Em Schulz: How are you getting there?
Christine Schiefer: What is happening?
Em Schulz: How are you getting there? Is this like the Oregon Trail to get all the way to Lily Dale?
Christine Schiefer: It's a train.
Em Schulz: Like I don't...
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you, they're on trains to Lily Dale. You know I was on one of those trains.
Em Schulz: Whoever...
Christine Schiefer: You know it.
Em Schulz: I know. And I think you were in the caboose, you love the caboose.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure. You're right, but I probably didn't pay for my ticket.
Em Schulz: No, you were my favorite little hobo.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I was like, "Come with me, come with me. I'll take care of you. Let's go to Lily Dale."
Christine Schiefer: "Okay. Here, I come."
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. A quarter million people at a time when travel was not as easy as it is today.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So I, I just extrapolating that in my own head. It would be easily millions of people. And then you think of the advent of like TikTok and like social media to like let you know what's out there, not just like reading about it from the newspaper.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: This thing would be like caked in people year round. This... It's year-round Salem.
Christine Schiefer: Caked in people, that's new.
Em Schulz: And people in cake is also nice.
Christine Schiefer: Well, the first one's not so nice. That one... Yeah. Sure.
Em Schulz: I don't know. However, you like to say it. Caked in people, people... Okay. So, uh, they said that the... Oh, oh, here's the other thing about the, the New York Times reporter. All these people are showing up and they decided that they were going to do kind of like, uh, an early version of like Rotten Tomatoes on the different types of mediums you could meet here. Like they did like... Or a Beach Too Sandy, maybe, a review.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: They were taking reviews of these mediums and said, I'm gonna go to all these sorts of mediums at this... At this Lily Dale Assembly...
Christine Schiefer: So it's like a Yelp for mediums.
Em Schulz: A Yelp. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But, but not, not like a one-by-one, mainly the categories, like this type of medium, if you go to this one, who does this service...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: This is what I think about them. If they do this type of service, this is what I think about them. So this reporter kind of really went in. And I'm wondering if they actually were the perfect person to do this because they tried to keep it as scientific as possible. They were... They clearly had a, a healthy cloud of skepticism.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. They were like trying to be not biased about... Or...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, at least that's, that's my understanding of it. The, the chunks of the article I read, it sounded like they were trying to just truly be honest with other people before they got there. Which thank God, because imagine if you got there and you're like, "What the fuck's going on?" This reporter said that the lowest grade of mediums... Do you know the... Well, I don't... I don't even... Do you wanna guess...
Christine Schiefer: The lowest grade of mediums... Umm.
Em Schulz: The lowest grade of mediums? Like the worst service you could go through.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. The worst service is the ones where they, uh, do ectoplasm, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Kind of. Umm, it was the people who could conjure clouds and smoke.
Christine Schiefer: Like the ones where that's like...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Like where they had gauze...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Coming out of the... Okay. That's comforting 'cause I always thought...
Em Schulz: Yes. So they had...
Christine Schiefer: That was like the sketchiest one 'cause we all know now most of that was fake.
Em Schulz: Isn't it nice to know that you could meet someone from 1898 and you would have something in common with them?
Christine Schiefer: Really nice. That's probably the only thing considering apparently they only ate boiled chicken, and that doesn't sound very good. But the rest, yeah, I think I can get on board with.
Em Schulz: I know. [chuckle] So apparently that type of practice was called etherealization.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, 'cause you're like manifesting something from the ethereal.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And realizing it. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes. It's when things would materialize on command, or when you would hear voices on command. So...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: She said that is... She said, boo. And by the way, I don't know if this reporter is a woman, but she being gender neutral. I don't know. She, uh...
Christine Schiefer: She's like, not my thing.
Em Schulz: She said that... She, she said, etherealization, you can go. It's probably a great time, but, you know, don't, don't get crazy about it.
Christine Schiefer: Like only go if you have a Groupon maybe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or like drunk bachelorette, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Don't expect too much. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They even said that, okay, etherealization is, is bad, and we can probably guess that this stuff is fake. But here's another one that you really shouldn't go to for, umm, an honest experience. And the reporter said this thing was called trumpet mediumship. Have you heard of trumpet mediumship?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Apparently, people in a seance will stand in a circle with a trumpet in the middle of them on the floor.
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: Why a trumpet? I think they need...
Christine Schiefer: Why not a trumpet? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, fair enough. When a spirit comes into the room on command, again, of course, the trumpet would levitate and float around the circle of people, one by one it would...
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's just insanity. Okay.
Em Schulz: It would float past each person until it stopped at the person that the spirit wanted to talk to. The trumpet would then move itself to your shoulder and basically, so your ear is pressed up against the horn part, the part where the sound comes out of a trumpet.
Christine Schiefer: And it's just floating around, they're saying? Oh please.
Em Schulz: It's floating around, they scoot that... Someone scoots that little trumpet right up to your ear. And then when you listen in, like it's a conch shell, apparently the spirit can talk through the mouthpiece of the trumpet and you can hear a private message in...
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's truly nuts.
Em Schulz: Through the trumpet. Umm, like who... Someone came up with that when they were drunk.
Christine Schiefer: No doubt.
Em Schulz: Nobody said this is a good idea. That, that was at a bar, someone came up with that.
Christine Schiefer: No doubt. That... Like there's no other way.
Em Schulz: And I do wonder how it was done because apparently circles of people would just see it moving by itself. It had to be on a rig that they just didn't understand.
Christine Schiefer: It had... Like it had to just be on some fishing net, a fishing wire, I mean. Like...
Em Schulz: And also with the science of like listening into a, a conch shell, and you hear like the ocean.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It had... It had to be that, where you're just like forcing yourself to hear something...
Christine Schiefer: Like maybe somebody could whisper from a certain part of the room and it would like echo in. Who knows? Yeah. That just seems, uh, shady as fuck.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also why is the spirit trying to privately tell you a message in front of everybody?
Christine Schiefer: Finally, the only thing I can talk through, a trumpet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But, you know, in a movie where like there's the afterlife and they're trying to communicate, it would be something that stupid of like, "Oh, this is the only way I can talk to them." And they would... Why... How would they figure that out?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it... It'd be something as wild as a trumpet.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I guess in, in some sort of Whoopi Goldberg-esque type film and... I could see that happening. [laughter] But that's, that's like the only like a comedy.
Em Schulz: What an obscure reference. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't know. I just am picturing...
Em Schulz: Classic Whoopi Goldberg.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Literally the only person I'm casting in this flick, and I won't accept any alternatives.
Em Schulz: If we're going with Whoopi, I hope Rosie O'Donnell's the one that plays the voice in the trumpet because I...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Naturally.
Em Schulz: I Feel like they would make a great pair. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: So anyway, trumpet mediumship. She also says, like, "That one I cannot explain but don't trust it." She's like...
Christine Schiefer: But like, that's not... Yeah. That's, that's a sign in and of itself. Yeah.
Em Schulz: "But I can't tell you what's going on, but I can tell you it's bullshit."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, like, and even that one by the way, it wasn't like this reporter had some novel opinion about trumpet mediumship. A lot of people side-eyed it even then. They were like, this is too fucking weird for this to have...
Christine Schiefer: A floating trumpet. That's like Disney level. Like that's just silly.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's too fantastical. It's being discovered the same time as dinosaurs. Like this... Too much is going on. I have to believe only one.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Lily Dale also...
Christine Schiefer: There's no room for floating trumpets and velociraptors.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay? We gotta pick one. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, at least one person, one spiritualist at that time was like, "The ghost of a dinosaur has something to say to us."
Christine Schiefer: I was wondering this when you said they were happening at the same time, it was like, could you channel it?
Em Schulz: Right?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. I think so.
Em Schulz: Maybe they whispered into the trumpet an entire life story and that biopic became Jurassic Park. Who knows?
Christine Schiefer: That's beautiful.
Em Schulz: So Lily Dale also has mediums who practiced, umm, slate writing or automatic writing. And the same New York Times reporter said that, uh, that one was kind of like a, a neutral.
Christine Schiefer: That's kinda what I was gonna guess next on the level, like the automatic writing...
Em Schulz: 'Cause there's no way to prove it.
Christine Schiefer: Because I feel like there's a lot of wiggle room there. Yeah. Like I feel like I do believe you can practice that, but I also believe there are ways both intentionally and not intentionally to just kind of make phony [0:55:29.0] ____.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I think, at least when this, uh, report came out, they were like, there's really no way to tell.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like it's, it's interesting clairvoyance if they can, uh, anticipate what is gonna happen...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Before I even know what's happening. Now, this reporter said what most of us would probably say, that the most elite type of mediumship is, uh, when people could summon spirits to actually appear before you, where you can see the person.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Like when... Like seeing... Literally seeing a fucking ghost... That's, uh... Which I think, I don't... It doesn't really go into it, but I'm assuming what she means is more than like something that's obviously cheesecloth, but like seeing your dead mother in front of you.
Christine Schiefer: But I feel like even that's not a thing anymore. Right? Like... Okay.
Em Schulz: It's not.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So a lot of that was probably phony too.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Probably was, but I think, uh, my take on it was that the reporter was like, this would definitely be the, the most believable thing. But it...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Okay.
Em Schulz: It probably doesn't happen a lot. However, with each style of mediumship, there ended up being frauds. Even the ones that were kind of...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Mediumship.
Em Schulz: Like automatic writing.
Christine Schiefer: Mediumship advisor.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh. Trip, Trip Advisor. There's like a trip. Spiritual trip. Nope.
Christine Schiefer: What? I just told it to you. Mediumship Advisor. No? You don't like it?
Em Schulz: I think... I think you have to emphasize ship. So it sounds like trip.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: Mediumtrip Advisor.
Christine Schiefer: That took me that whole time to come up with, so I'll get back to you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, with every type of mediumship that this reporter discussed, there were frauds found out, and there were specific tools used for each type of service that helped a fraud get business, so...
Christine Schiefer: A trumpet, a floating trumpet.
Em Schulz: The trumpet was the only one that the reporter was like, "I can't explain it, but I don't believe it."
Christine Schiefer: Because probably they took the string off when she came in and they were like, "What do you mean, you make it float." Cut it off and then now prove it. It's like, well, okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, uh, well, so for etherealization, they said that smoke could be created with chemicals, voices could be made 'cause it like... Let's say like, oh please say something in the room. Voices would just come from somebody else shouting through a tube in another room.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, or a tube in the ceiling so it sounded kind of echoey and farther away. Or people could learn to throw their voice in... With ventriloquism. Umm, in slate writing, there was apparently a special ink that was light-sensitive. So people... The mediums would actually write the messages in advance before the seance and then just like a script lead people to get certain answers. And then when you turn the light on, you would see the ink fade into existence.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, but that's just silly. Okay.
Em Schulz: But also scientifically amazing in the 1800s, how does someone create that? And where are is it today?
Christine Schiefer: Look at all the technological advancements we got out of these scams, you know.
Em Schulz: They went from Morse code to light-sensitive ink real quick. Uh, because of this tactic, a lot of slate writing mediums who like wanted to like actually make sure their reputation was safe, they offered all light sessions to make sure that, we're never turning the light off, you will see us writing in real time...
Christine Schiefer: Smart.
Em Schulz: Without anything showing up. Umm, there was also spirit paintings, spirit painting sessions.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They had that at that...
Em Schulz: Have you heard of these?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, psychic convention I went to. I didn't do one, but my friend had one done of her grandmother.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It did kind of look like her. She was skeptical, but she was like, it's a nice drawing. It looks kind of like my grandma, so.
Em Schulz: That's nice. I... We have... They have, umm... We... My, my shoe of my grandma, that picture, we still don't totally know who that is, but it's a very pretty lady.
Christine Schiefer: She's pretty, yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know who it is, but... So Lily Dale was also known for hosting spirit painting sessions, especially with two acts called The Bang Sisters and the Campbell Brothers. The sisters and brothers loved getting together.
Christine Schiefer: It's like family bands, you know. It's like, they're just... They're just hitting the road.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like... 'cause they also... The Fox Sisters, the Davenport Brothers, I feel like the second that it's keeping it in the family, I immediately...
Christine Schiefer: The Schiefer Sibs.
Em Schulz: Call bullshit. Because...
Christine Schiefer: You called bullshit the minute we started our podcast, you were like...
Em Schulz: I took one look at you...
Christine Schiefer: Something's bad here.
Em Schulz: And I went, something smells fishy. Yeah. I... And then you... And then you brought, uh, your sister into the fold. I didn't even know you had a sister when I first met you, and then she's like the bonus Jonas, all of a sudden I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: She sure is.
Em Schulz: I'm like, there's more of you? When does it end? So...
Christine Schiefer: Surprise. Never.
Em Schulz: So yeah. Anytime I hear of a sibling duo doing mediumship, I think your parents are just using you to get money for the family or the siblings in general. That's my kind of, my gut feeling.
Christine Schiefer: Like I feel like that... Or, or you're just using it like, uh, yeah, like a family band. You have some sort of "talent," whether that's deceiving people or it's real, or whatever. And you're using it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. But also your family, like that's exactly the people that you would...
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: Tell all your lies to and like who would like back you if you ever got called out, you know? So I feel...
Christine Schiefer: And who would also benefit from it, yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Fair point, fair point. These sets of siblings, the Bang Sisters, and Campbell Brothers, they were known for their spirit paintings where seance guests would gather at Lily Dale around a blank canvas and paints, but no brushes, no cup of water, anything, just paint in front of you. Which I feel like was just for like the vibe. And the medium would go into a trance, call upon a spirit, and say like, "Who are you? Show yourself using the paints and paint yourself so we can all see you." And eventually, paint would just start appearing on the canvas.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Well, that's silly.
Em Schulz: And a portrait would show up. Umm, just like light-sensitive ink, they ended up finding out that it was water-sensitive paint. And I'm sure the seance leader was probably like, "Oh, let me put some water on the canvas for you." And then I'll sign a picture of yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Ah-hah. Yeah, okay. So that's not what I meant when I said there were spirit painting at the convention. They like actually, yeah, channeled... Yeah. But interesting. Okay.
Em Schulz: Well, some mediums who... Uh, this is why I assumed that's... That that wasn't what happened to you is because mediums have actually been found guilty like in the court of law for this.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, okay.
Em Schulz: For fraud.
Christine Schiefer: You can prove it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, 'cause it's just, I think too obvious. This reporter who, uh, who came to Lily Dale, who I've been talking about, they tried to debunk one of the medium methods, uh, or they tried to debunk each of the medium methods and like I said earlier, could not figure out the trumpet trick. So I think it was just like you said they hid all the evidence before this reporter could get to them. But this did launch a huge investigation when the reporter was getting pictures of seances and in pitch black, I guess flash photography was still a big thing. And like people weren't expecting it. And so when they said, yeah, you can take pictures during the seance, they didn't know the reporter would be able to take pictures in the dark. And, and this reporter literally got a picture of the hotel staff helping the seance leaders as the spirits move things around.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I hope they got paid for that shit.
Em Schulz: The NDAs must have been insane.
Christine Schiefer: These hotel staff. I mean, damn.
Em Schulz: So, uh, when he got these photos of like literal employees of the hotel helping in the sessions, a fraud investigation was launched immediately. Many were found guilty, which actually Lily Dale was happy about because it was like, good get the like bad people out of our camp.
Christine Schiefer: Right. They don't want that.
Em Schulz: Like we wanna be... We wanna be taken seriously. The mediums who work here wanna be taken seriously. We want our guests who come here and work with mediums to like be able to trust us. We don't want our reputation damaged. So take 'em all out. Umm, so they were excited that now they could openly say, we have done what we can and we can offer honest mediumship services. Uh, this helps also the mediums because a lot of them, like I said, were women...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: At a time where they couldn't get jobs anywhere else. And so... Or it was harder to get jobs. A lot of them were making a hundred dollars a day as mediums, which back then was four grand.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a day?
Em Schulz: A day.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: I mean, a quarter million people are coming in every summer, you know, so... Or every year. So anyway, the, the people working there were like, "Thank God." Unfortunately, though, more fraud cases come out all over the country, which like... You know, probably thanks Houdini in a lot of ways for that. But throughout, as spiritualism grew and grew and grew, more mediums show up, and then more fraud case... More frauds come out. So eventually over...
Christine Schiefer: What was that quote? It's not you, it's not me, it's Houdini.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's not me, it's not you, it's Houdini. And I feel like certainly he was a factor of that, but a lot of people were being exposed as frauds during this time.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I mean, 11 million people as spiritualists, uh, there's a... Oh, my YouTube decided to go off. All right. Umm, 11 million people who are spiritualists and 35,000 practicing mediums...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: There was gonna be a lot of fraud out there. And unfortunately, there was so much fraud that people started being kinda disillusioned and jaded by it. And they were... And spiritualism very quickly kinda fell to the wayside because people just felt like they couldn't trust anyone.
Christine Schiefer: That's so much of a bummer. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, too many reputations of mediums were damaged where people just stopped feeling like they could rely on this. And any convincing evidence was now associated with like entertainment. And soon all that was attractive to people at Lily Dale, umm, and the world of mediumship was just classic psychic, clairvoyant, uh, services.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like there was no more of, like you said, the etherealization or...
Christine Schiefer: I see, just the, the bare bones of it, like the basics.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Like... I think it... Honestly, and this is still messed up, but there are still a lot of frauds out there. I think it just got boiled down to...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: The things you just can't prove. Like you could prove cheesecloth as ectoplasm, you could prove lights and smoke and mirrors, but you can't prove good guesses.
Christine Schiefer: You can't prove a floating trumpet, Em. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, you know? And weirdly, trumpet mediumship, you can still get there. I'm just saying.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Only psychic readings and trumpets. But by the 1950s, Lily Dale's mediums were exclusively just psychic readers, the ones that you would see today.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And it went from the 1870s, where it was every type of act you could ever imagine, to now just classic readers. Uh, one person who lives there and works there even said, we don't do Ouija boards, we don't do tarot, we don't do crystal balls. Umm, that's gonna get you in trouble. We don't do any of the toys. Is what he said.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. The toys. All right, relax.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. He was like, just trust my, my mind power, and that's all you need to know. In the 1980s, Lily Dale's image shifted even further because members got more into the new agey stuff versus traditional spiritualism, and mediumship moved further and further away from what Lily Dale was originally intended to be like. Today, it still exists, and there's, umm... Uh, you can still go there. And although technically, legally it is a hamlet, that's the... Do you know what a hamlet is?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, like a small town?
Em Schulz: Aww. A tiny, tiny village.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I thought that was nice. Uh, even though it is a small village or a hamlet, it does still have its own post office, fire department, and of course, churches, and they're... They do free public daily readings where mediums will read an entire crowd and deliver messages, kinda a, a Long Island medium on a talk show.
Christine Schiefer: Like a group reading. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You can also get private, uh, meetings there. And fun fact, all of the mediums in Lily Dale are also Lily Dale residents, unless there's some special guest. If you are a medium in Lily Dale...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay.
Em Schulz: You live there. So, so all the mediums know each other, which imagine...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, TLC.
Em Schulz: The water cooler gossip.
Christine Schiefer: Please hit me up. TM, TM, TM, please. That would be such a good show. We...
Em Schulz: I'm begging. I'm begging.
Christine Schiefer: That... This is proof. We came up with it first. Please let us do it. Please.
Em Schulz: This is like... Okay, but if it ever happens, can you imagine if we at least got creator, creator titles, uh, of that show? Of like, it's like Selling Sunset or something. We're just a bunch of people who just hate each other, and like maybe they don't hate each other...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, probably there isn't even hate there...
Em Schulz: But they all know know too much about each other.
Christine Schiefer: But there has to be some drama, like you know there has to be drama. Like they love each other, but there's drama. Well, yeah...
Em Schulz: And also someone has to hate someone else.
Christine Schiefer: There's gotta be a black sheep in there, you know.
Em Schulz: Someone has to hate someone else.
Christine Schiefer: Somebody who's just like driving everyone crazy.
Em Schulz: If you live in Lily Dale and you know who hates the other person, uh, we won't even talk about it publicly, I just have to know [1:08:46.2] ____.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: I just wanna [1:08:46.4] ____ and let it unfold and watch as it happens.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And also like I feel like there could be... I'm sure this wouldn't happen all that often, but imagine the bit where like one of them is saying, someone's coming to me and saying this bitch is talking about you down the road. We have to go find her. Like, oh my God, if the spirits got involved too, get out of here. And then imagine if person A, who hates person B, if there's past gone loved ones...
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying, that now you have like layer of...
Em Schulz: Also hate each other and now they're duking it out.
Christine Schiefer: Of drama, of conflict. And you can almost like... You can say, oh no, like Betty told me that you were doing this behind the scenes. I know. And then you'd be like, no, you're lying.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Like, no. You know, I mean, man, this could be so good.
Em Schulz: Imagine like general paranoia if like you don't like somebody, but imagine like if the spirits are gonna wrap you out...
Christine Schiefer: Imagine like one of them raises their prices...
Em Schulz: That's crazy...
Christine Schiefer: And then everyone's like, "What the hell?" Like, I mean, it's just... Imagine someone gets a bad... All the time.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What if one of them brings back the trumpet? Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: No, we're bringing the trumpet. We're gonna be like, "Hey, we brought this prop, umm... "
Em Schulz: You know what would be a nice... A nice homage is if the theme song was, was... That we... Performed in trumpet...
Christine Schiefer: Theme song was Rosie O'Donnell talking into a trumpet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And it's Whoopi Goldberg narrating all the, welcome to Lily Dale. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Also, imagine like one of them gets a bad Yelp review, but then it's like, "No, that was just automatic writing. I didn't say it." Like, it was... I channeled this bad Yelp review.
Em Schulz: What if an... What if an... Okay. But this is perfect actual TV behind-the-scenes producer magic because we're promoting the show while promoting us, because, in the first episode, they hear that we cover them on our podcast.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, that show fucking sucks. And then we lose all of our listeners.
Em Schulz: Uh, you know... I...
Christine Schiefer: We gotta make sure we have creative control on the show, otherwise we might be screwed. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's a very good point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I can't imagine a better show my entire life. I cannot imagine.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so excited about it. I don't know how to... No, it is. Eva...
Em Schulz: It's not even happening. How do we... We must know somebody in a TV capacity.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Our manager. Let's ask her to do it.
Em Schulz: Oh, right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Get someone on the horn, on the trumpet, please. I need to make sure we make this show, stat.
Em Schulz: Get me to Lily Dale Assembly. So, uh, all of the... So all the mediums they live in Lily Dale, you will find... Find out about it in season one.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And for all of those...
Christine Schiefer: No spoilers.
Em Schulz: And here's even more. Think, think in... Think in reality show terms. For those who move there, you never actually own property because I guess since the house is owned by a religious organization or the property is owned by a religious organization, you essentially lease your house. You like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, from... Okay.
Em Schulz: So every couple of seasons when the... When the plot gets dry, we can just churn out new people. It'd be like, oh...
Christine Schiefer: Evicted.
Em Schulz: Your contract is up. You have to leave the house. We're putting new people in. Evicted. Uh, to move there... Here's the other thing, 'cause if, let's say you and I wanted to join the LDA assembly, and we...
Christine Schiefer: I... And I do.
Em Schulz: And we want to be mediums there. Let's say you wanted to... You wanted to do paint services there, so if you want to work in Lily Dale, you have to live there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: You have to live there. That's one of the rules. They don't... They don't just let anyone in. Umm, you have to be a member in a good standing... In good standing of a spiritualist church for at least a year. So step one, you gotta go find a spiritualist church.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it sounds like a lot of work.
Em Schulz: You got to be in good standing for a year, and then you can apply. Only then can you move in. Like that's rule... That's step one. But to join the LDA, the, uh, Lily Dale Assembly, uh, you also have to go through this test.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, you have to go through an audition essentially to know... So they have to know that you're a good medium. And also if you... If you've inherited property there and you live somewhere else, you must sell it to a member or join the assembly yourself. So you don't just get to have the property and then summer there, you have to be part of this assembly.
Christine Schiefer: I can't believe you can inherit property if it's not even owned by the people that live there.
Em Schulz: I think it's like, let's say you're in like a five-year contract, and you die in year two.
Christine Schiefer: I tried to sign up for a pool membership in our neighborhood, and they were like, "Oh, well you have to buy a bond from someone." And I'm like, "What?" And they're like, "Yeah. Yeah, you have to buy a bond and then you own part of the pool."
Em Schulz: What the fuck?
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, "I don't wanna... I don't wanna own the pool. I just wanna go to the pool." [laughter]
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And so anyway...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like, I wanna do a little piggy dipping. That's about it.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, "Forget it, I'm out." Yeah. So maybe it's like that where you like kinda have like a... Yeah, like a contractor, like a... Yeah, that makes... Yeah, that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Well, so if you... If you don't wanna live there, but you wanna have the property, too bad, you gotta give it to somebody else.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Or you just gotta move there yourself. But again, to move there yourself and be a medium, you have to pass this whole stupid test. So, uh, in 2022, the New York Times, again... They love talking about this thing. The New York Times got a copy of Lily Dale's guide to becoming a medium in the community. Not only do you have to be in good standing, all this stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, you need to provide $150, a cover letter, three letters of recommendation, which I'm guessing is from like prior clients, and proof of training, which it did help and go a long way if your training came from somebody else who was already living at the LDA.
Christine Schiefer: So Skillshare probably does not count. 'Cause I took... I definitely took some classes on... Well, it was Udemy or whatever, but I'm sure that the certificate I downloaded as a PDF probably doesn't count.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Honestly... Okay, this is kind of mean. But a lot of people there, it seems like they are older baby boomers, you could probably get away with it.
Christine Schiefer: Well in that case, [laughter] Canva.
Em Schulz: In that case, let's just start Photoshop on everything.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say I got Photoshop, I figured out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Then on top of that, you have to audition as a medium, obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously.
Em Schulz: But not once, not twice, 25 times.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
Em Schulz: In 25 different public demonstrations.
Christine Schiefer: Holy... Publicly? Oh, oh, I, I already have hives. Okay.
Em Schulz: And then... And then you have to participate in two different Monday night circles, which is a public demonstration where paid audiences...
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: Buy a ticket to also come. You must also conduct private readings in front of assembly members so they can supervise and they grade you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm out.
Em Schulz: Imagine we started this show a year ago because, in 2023, there were three prospective mediums...
Christine Schiefer: What year?
Em Schulz: Who wanted to go live at Lily Dale.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, last year.
Em Schulz: Which like... Last year, 2023. Again, perfect setup for a TV show by the way. We've got three really like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Gung-ho, happy mediums who just wanna live in Lily Dale, and they're about to start their big journeys and adventures into the Lily Dale Assembly.
Christine Schiefer: Trying to get their spot.
Em Schulz: I mean, 25 public demonstrations. That's a lot of episodes. We could... We could push this two seasons if we wanted.
Christine Schiefer: Eva, are you writing? Are you on the... Are you on the horn?
Em Schulz: Think about the most content.
Christine Schiefer: Figure this out stat.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Are you on the floating horn?
Em Schulz: Are you on the trumpet? I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: Somebody figure it out.
Em Schulz: Umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so we could... And then spoiler alert. Oh, you know what we should do? Okay, so this is what happens. The pilot episode, it does like, uh, a non-linear time thing, where it starts at the end where you see what happens...
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: And then we build to it. Because the way that this ends is those three...
Christine Schiefer: You're probably wondering how I ended up here.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Those three prospective mediums sue the Lily Dale Assembly and that's the end of season one. Because...
Christine Schiefer: By the way, the first part of it is you getting sued.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: By the way. Umm, this is how it begins. Are you guys in or what?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Eva, don't include that in the pitch because they're gonna say no. Uh, we can just try to lowball that one in later. We can slide that.
Em Schulz: Okay. This is how... Here's... That's why I'm saying let's pretend that we started the show last year because they wouldn't have known what was to come. We are just, they're already contractually...
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay.
Em Schulz: Obligated to be part of the filming. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: We can decide who gets sued or not. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then because we have creative control, we can decide what gets seen. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Perfect. Yeah. Easy. So they, they end up suing the Lily Dale Assembly because of like honestly a miscommunication. That was really it. Uh, the, the members were told that they, they had to... They were gonna be graded and they had to get at least like an 82.4 something percent. All of them basically get around an 82 and fail anyway. And what happens is they found out that the passing score actually was changed by like the board to 85, and nobody told them. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Drama.
Em Schulz: That was kind of the whole thing. But, uh... But that's the kind of thing that reality TV would really string you along with of like...
Christine Schiefer: They did that already. It's like, they're, they're primed food for a TV show. They already know how to create drama without even a camera around.
Em Schulz: It's as if it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's as if it's written in the stars. Eva.
Em Schulz: So are you there, Eva?
Christine Schiefer: Do something. Thank God.
Em Schulz: Please do something with this.
Christine Schiefer: She finally responded. I'm like, Eva, have you even a little bit of an idea how important this is?
Em Schulz: Imagine like... Oh my God, like this is just meant for Bravo. I know it. So the Lily Dale Assembly responds, and it's saying that even if you did get the passing score of 85, you might not have even become a medium, because, at the end of the day, the final decision really does come down to the members' opinions in general of you, which yikes, first of all, because it's like...
Christine Schiefer: That's fucked up.
Em Schulz: Even if you're smart enough, you can't even like sit at our table.
Christine Schiefer: Even if you prove yourself. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But also...
Christine Schiefer: What, what...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that was scary. All these balloons...
Em Schulz: I don't know what happened there.
Christine Schiefer: Just appeared. Oh, you were doing two?
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, 'cause I was... Two.
Christine Schiefer: All of a sudden, like in the corner of my eye, I just see like balloons all over Em's face. Okay. You're not allowed to count with your hands on this...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Podcast anymore.
Em Schulz: Uh, right, right. So they're saying...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You can't even sit with us even if you want to. They're, they're saying the final decision, no matter how good you did, is, is really determined by what we think of you. And then secret number three is that like, what if they're going off of what the spirits are telling them? You know, like what if you channel your spirit guides and you're like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Are these people gonna be good for our community?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. This just seems messy as hell.
Em Schulz: So I feel like there's two layers of, are you likable? Yeah. And, uh, by the way, I have been at a fraternity. I know what it's like to judge people truly just by...
Christine Schiefer: Vibes.
Em Schulz: Just like... Yeah, well, I mean, like, we... Like literally what you see in the movies of like after rush showing every single one of their pictures on a screen and like going, yes or no. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: This is seriously why I couldn't... I have hives again, this is why I was not in a sorority. I just... My, my brain was like, "You can't do this for your own survival." Like, you'll never make it out alive. Like you'll be eaten alive.
Em Schulz: You know what I... You know what I will say about, uh, the fraternity I joined? Not all of them are like that. Uh, I was in three, only one of them was like that.
Christine Schiefer: Was it your favorite? [laughter]
Em Schulz: And I remember thinking like, yikes...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: This is just... No, it was my least favorite. Umm, but I will say every single person got in, whether or not we liked them, the only reason that they did it was to make sure everyone felt safe with everybody, which I really liked. So like there was, umm... Like there were some people where people straight up went, "No, I don't want them to join." And if they didn't have a legitimate reason, it was like, oh, you're just being a bitch then no. Like how are you [1:20:37.7] ____.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Then we're gonna put your picture on the PowerPoint.
Em Schulz: Just say no, 'cause you don't like them.
Christine Schiefer: And talk about you and how much of a bitch you are.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The only person who got a no was like a guy who made a lot of girls really uncomfortable, and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Okay.
Em Schulz: And, and so in that moment I was like, thank God we had this meeting because...
Christine Schiefer: Out of here.
Em Schulz: A lot of girls were able to be like, "I'm not... I don't want him here." And they said, okay, well then fuck that guy. He's not coming. So that, that was like... It was weirdly like a positive experience for such a...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Ass backwards way of handling things. So, uh, but I have been in that, I can just see all these mediums in one room all doing like whatever version of mediumship they do to like... They're like, "Oh, do we like this person now? I don't know." I could see someone going rogue.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely. No doubt.
Em Schulz: And like doing a problematic version of that. Uh, some people, like you mentioned earlier saying, this sounds like a cult. Some people, uh, believe that this community is too insular and it's impossible to even get registered there if you just don't have connections. And a lot of people think that these mediums are basically like the equivalent of like nepo babies, of like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah.
Em Schulz: If you don't know the right person, you can't get in, and it doesn't even matter what your grade is. It's also, I will just say very, very, very, very white. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: No, you don't say.
Em Schulz: In fact, one reporter... I know. Just in case anyone was wondering, one reporter literally called them conspicuously white.
Christine Schiefer: Conspicuously. Wow.
Em Schulz: And... [laughter] And, uh, because yes, the spiritualist and freethinker movements were very progressive for the time, but they were still in an era of, uh, a lot of racial problems. I mean, we still...
Christine Schiefer: We do.
Em Schulz: We still have racial problems today. But I mean, if this camp opened in...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Believe it or not. I mean, think about like in the 1870s when this opened, I mean, 1860 was only...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: 1862 was only eight years before. So, umm, but because of, uh... Because at the time this was where... This was a big space where white women prevailed because... Or you know, it's what we think of when we hear spiritualist communities are all white people. And this was during a time where a lot of people were fighting for white women's suffrage, uh, a lot of white women felt safe in those spaces, which means throughout the years, white women still feel safe there. So, uh, today if you go to Lily Dale, a lot of the mediums there are white women and they have stayed white women. But just wanted to give that little history a shout-out just so you know what you're walking in on. And shifting gears, one of the... One of my things that I really like about, uh, Lily Dale's early roots that they've held onto is their take on death. Where they're like, oh, there is no death. It's all an illusion. It's just like the change or a graduation from this plane. Umm, and they even go on to say, this is a quote, once we die, we have to accept that we no longer have a physical body, and then we have to travel somewhere to de-stimulate before we can learn a new way to communicate with the world.
Christine Schiefer: That's so interesting.
Em Schulz: I thought that was really nice.
Christine Schiefer: To de-stimulate and then you can communicate. I've, I've heard that.
Em Schulz: And just communicate in a different way. And the...
Christine Schiefer: I've heard that you need time to adjust on the other side before you can communicate.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So the, the next point I have is that de-stimulating can take a while, and only after that process can you communicate with mediums from the other side. So a lot of people get mad when they have a recent death in the family.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And then they go to one of these communities and they don't hear from that person. And it's because that person is still taking time to adjust.
Christine Schiefer: They need a break.
Em Schulz: They need a... They need a break. Umm, in this way, the community at Lily Dale feels like they're offering healing services or imparting wisdom from people who've passed on. And another Lily Dale medium said that mediums only deliver the messages there, not to interpret them. So I, I don't know if that's like a, a running theme there that none of them try to interpret their messages. They just kind of stream a conscious for you that way you can receive it however you need to. Uh, and then again, last mention of a reality show, despite their multiple lawsuits, I've only mentioned a few, but there are others, [laughter] many people still come to Lily Dale about 30,000 each summer. And Christian protestors think about the... This feels like a Parks & Rec episode.
Christine Schiefer: Hell, yes it does. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The Christian, Christian protestors gather there during the summer to accuse visitors and residents of witchcraft. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's fun that they have like a stay-summer there too.
Em Schulz: You know, and they say they don't, but they do.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: One, uh, one Lily Dale resident said she loves how normalized it is to talk about the dead there, and to speak with the dead there. Because I can imagine this in a scene of this show, she said that she walks down the street and her neighbor will... Her neighbor will say, oh, your aunt's walking with you, and it's a dead aunt. And...
Christine Schiefer: What if she's like, "No, she's not. I would be able to see her." Do you think that happens? Like, "No."
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "I know when my aunt's here. Okay? Don't act like you know my aunt better than I do."
Em Schulz: That's probably why they hate each other because one of them thinks the other's a phony. And then imagine, imagine how quickly it could spiral into a Houdini episode of like, prove it...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: And I'll give you a million dollars. And then like they spend the whole episode trying to prove it.
Christine Schiefer: Like for real into this. And I feel like, uh, I'm, I'm really into this... And I... I'm looking online...
Em Schulz: Me too.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, here they have, uh... They have summer courses, they have workshops this summer, umm...
Em Schulz: I think you need to go and just suss out the potential talent. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: Let's see. I hope it's online 'cause I don't really have time to go.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I would love to... Info and purchase tickets. Uh, let's see. Join us as we... I mean, again, like it's not telling me if it's here or just kidding, it's in the Octagon building. Oh, man. June 22nd. That's the day...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: We're doing our by the way folks...
Em Schulz: Okay. That sounds...
Christine Schiefer: That's the day we're doing our live, uh, book pre-order, uh, thingy-majig, what's it called? It's, uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's called Talk Shop Live, umm...
Em Schulz: Talk Shop Live.
Christine Schiefer: And we are doing... You can pre-order during the live. We'll be talking about the book, you can pre-order, uh, signed copies and there'll be like little giveaway and stuff. Umm, so anyway, just throwing that out there 'cause that's what's happening June 22nd. And I suppose that's why I will not be attending the Lily Dale Assembly.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If, if you are not going to the Lily Dale Assembly on June 22nd, there's no reason to not go to our Talk Shop Live.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're not busy then.
Em Schulz: So, and also...
Christine Schiefer: So you better be there.
Em Schulz: You're not busy. You could actually probably also do it from Lily Dale Assembly. So actually there's no...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Wait, why don't I go and just do it from there? I...
Em Schulz: That would be great.
Christine Schiefer: I think maybe I'll just go ahead.
Em Schulz: That would actually be really on brand for us. Bring a camera and a producer and just see what happens.
Christine Schiefer: I won't look.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know? I bring a trumpet everywhere, as you know, so.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that is the Lily Dale Assembly. Lily Dale Assembly.
Christine Schiefer: Em, that was fascinating. Umm, they have a really nice website folks, by the way. And they have, uh... They have, uh, some really old, beautiful drawings, like of what it, I assume, looked like in the 1800s on the homepage, which is very cool. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh, cool.
Christine Schiefer: You ready to take the next step and get a private reading?
Em Schulz: We made lot of fun of it, but I, I do like to think that they'd know what they're doing. So, you know, we talked a lot about frauds, I'm hoping that they really did suss out all the frauds and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, hopefully.
Em Schulz: Hopefully, they don't mind a little poking.
Christine Schiefer: And then on the registered meetings page, you can go to each of these mediums' websites, like their specific website, and see like what kind of work they do. So if you like vibe with one of them, umm, that's kind of fun. Wow.
Em Schulz: You know, what I would be curious about though is... And this... And I should have mentioned this earlier, but when, like those three mediums, they didn't make it...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Because they didn't score high enough or whatever, and then there was a whole lawsuit. How did none of them see that coming?
Christine Schiefer: That's the age old question of like...
Em Schulz: As mediums.
Christine Schiefer: How come a psychic's never won the lottery. You know? Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah, not even like, oh, you didn't see that. You didn't know that they changed the scoring grade, but like, how did your body not tell you like, there's gonna be a whole lawsuit, and it's gonna be so annoying.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they were like, you're meant to do this and it'll, uh...
Em Schulz: Maybe.
Christine Schiefer: It'll be a complicated venture. A complicated journey.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I... No, I thought it was super interesting. I really do think it should be a TV show. Uh, I think it would be such a good TV show.
Christine Schiefer: I would again like to say that this is proof, this is our IP that we are going to purchase from them. Please. If they allow us to, if they... If they so humbly... If they let the... Our humble selves, umm, use them for content, that would be... That would be nice.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And, and then, uh, if we find out that they're actually super problematic, we pull out immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We have a... We are... Oops. We are skedaddling as fast as we can.
Christine Schiefer: All righty. I am excited for this one today. This is one I've been wanting to cover for months, umm, maybe longer. Uh, this is a story that I first heard on Dateline, uh, the, the podcast. And then I went and watched the episode, which is pretty... I think it's the same, but obviously there's like, uh, visual, you know, on, on the actual episode. So I watched it there too. And I was just taken by this story. It is a wild one. Uh, this is the story of Nicholas Alahverdian. I, I just... I'm just gonna jump into it, Em, it's, it's a doozy and a half. Okay?
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So in December of 2021 is where we're gonna... We're gonna start this story. An Irish man named Arthur Knight lay critically ill in the hospital in Glasgow, Scotland. He was being treated for, as many people were in December of 2021, COVID-19. And his condition was so poor that he could no longer breathe on his own and had to be placed on a ventilator. And because many people who were placed on ventilators during COVID-19 treatment never recovered, umm, it was a very scary time. Uh, the damage done to his body could mean he may not survive even if he did come off the ventilator. But he did...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Power through, he survived. And once he was off the ventilator, Arthur began to recover slowly but surely, and he beat the odds and survived what a lot of people unfortunately did not. But Arthur, as we know now, was tenacious. He was an orphan and he had made his own way in life. He'd been born in Ireland, worked and studied hard to break into the corporate world of communications after moving to England for work. But while he was still in the hospital, recovering from the three-month-long medically induced coma that he had to be in for his COVID treatment, Arthur was suddenly fighting a new battle that came in the form of Scottish authorities making a shocking accusation against him. They believed that Arthur Knight was not who he claimed to be.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: According to them, his name wasn't even Arthur.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: He wasn't an Irish-born academic and former orphan. In fact, he wasn't even Irish. Authorities said that he was actually an American man named Nicholas Alahverdian.
Em Schulz: Okay. Are we thinking he... They found this out because like they had to figure out his medical records because of COVID or something?
Christine Schiefer: Not quite, but good guess.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm imagining somebody out there during COVID, an... A second identity was figured out by accident.
Christine Schiefer: So, they said he was an American man, Nicholas Alahverdian, which would be bad news for Arthur because Nicholas Alahverdian was a wanted man for crimes committed in the United States. Arthur said, umm, I don't think it would've been possible for me to commit those crimes because I have never even been to the United States.
Em Schulz: Okay. Bold statement.
Christine Schiefer: He only wanted to be left alone to recover from COVID in peace, but the authorities were not ready to let this suspicion drop. They were determined to prove that Arthur was Nicholas, which would be difficult because Nicholas Alahverdian, the man that they were claiming Arthur was also happened to be dead.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, a lot of spinning plates...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: A lot of things going on here. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: We've gotta keep our eyes on. Okay? So Nicholas, otherwise known as Nick Alahverdian, he had been... So we, we've got Arthur, right? He's recovering over there.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, we think you're Nick Alahverdian. Everyone's like, wait, but he... Nick Alahverdian's dead. Let me tell you about Nick Alahverdian. Okay, we're gonna rewind here. Nicholas Alahverdian, he was a public political figure. He had grown up in the US in the foster care system. He had endured terrible abuse He had survived rape and torture at the hands of his foster parents, and he became determined to cast light on the failures in the foster care system that allowed for horrors like this to persist. So as a teenager, Nick Alahverdian began doing clerical work at the Rhode Island House of Representatives.
Christine Schiefer: Those who knew him said he was extremely intelligent and diligent. He would read through these lengthy, complicated bills that even adult legislators struggled to comprehend, and, uh, as a result, he began speaking publicly to advocate on behalf of young people who lived in shelters and had uncertain housing situations doing a lot of really good work. He believed children like himself deserved safe and competent care, and that the state was failing them. So this advocacy he was doing started to pave the way for real changes in law and policy regarding children like him.
Christine Schiefer: And people who heard him speak were very, very moved by the stories that he shared of his own experiences, of his siblings' experiences, his peers. One man even described Nick as reminiscent of a Dickens character, umm, because he just had this like, sort of down and out past, and he was kind of finally, you know, pulling himself up by the bootstraps. And...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He really wanted to make a change. So he continued to advocate for systemic change all the way through into adulthood. But in 2020, Nick shocked everyone with a tragic announcement that he was dying of late-stage non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. He told everyone he was only expected to survive for another few weeks.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And due to his involvement in political advocacy and lawmaking, the announcement made its way into the news. So shortly afterward, Nick's wife Louise, announced that he had in fact died at only 32 years old. So he was cremated, the ashes were spread at sea.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And when he passed away, Nick's uncle who had been in contact with Nick, expressed a lot of pride for who Nick had been, what he had accomplished. And Nick's wife ended up contacting a church to request a ceremony, uh, like a celebration of life, you know, a funeral in Nick's honor. And, uh, she asked for multiple, multiple elected officials to speak at the funeral, and this was like a big project to pull off, especially for the church, uh, to be getting kind of this assignment from her. But many people believed Nick had done so much good work in this area that, you know, they didn't mind, uh, doing a, a more prestigious send-off to honor his life's work and give him a bigger funeral. So...
Em Schulz: Okay. That's nice.
Christine Schiefer: Back to Arthur Knight. If Arthur Knight knew who Nicholas Alahverdian had been, uh, sure, at this point, like, what's the big deal? You think I'm that great guy who died? Okay. I mean, could be confused with someone worse. Right? Unfortunately, there was more to Nick's story, however, than the political activism and advocacy work that he did. So I'm gonna tell you a little bit more about the dark side of Nicholas. Nicholas grew up in Rhode Island where he and his siblings, like I said, endured a very tumultuous childhood. His dad, Jack Alahverdian, couldn't maintain a healthy relationship and abused the women in his life.
Christine Schiefer: Jack, so his father, his biological father, had a violent criminal record, which included domestic violence, assault, violating protective orders filed against him by multiple women, including Nick's mother, Diana, and his mother, Diana DeFilippo married Jack in 1984 when she was 21, and he was, uh, 10 years older. Nicholas was the first... Their first son. He was born July 11th, 1987. And Diana pretty much supported the family by waitressing because Jack usually didn't have a job. He really struggled to maintain a job, and the family moved often, and was very fraught.
Christine Schiefer: They fought all the time, there was a lot of violence within the household. It was just a very toxic place to grow up. In 1989, which was six months after Nick's younger brother Joseph was born, Diana filed for divorce. She moved out with both of her sons in early January of 1990 and filed a restraining order against her ex, Jack, which was upheld... Accepted and upheld by the court. And by December of 1990, Diana had a third child named Diandra.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: At this point, the divorce was final, Jack is out of the picture. And Diana tried to stay in touch with Jack's family, like she was pretty... She was still kind of close with her in-laws, even though obviously she had this like no contact order with her ex. Umm, so yeah, and I think Jack's family kind of they were open enough, and I'll quote them in a minute, but they were open enough to say, yeah, he wasn't...
Em Schulz: Sure. Makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Good to his family. Like even though he's our blood relative, like we are not proud, proud of that.
Em Schulz: I can understand that.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yes.
Em Schulz: Uh, firsthand.
Christine Schiefer: I think... I think a lot of us know. Yes, you get it, you get it.
Em Schulz: I'm on it. I'm on it.
Christine Schiefer: So Jack's brother, Mike, said that the family saw Diana and the three kids often, and Nick was only three and a half when his parents were divorced, and he was pretty well loved. Umm, his family described him as a great young man, always smiling, never getting into any trouble, very polite. One uncle said that Nick was a happy child, even though he had kind of faced this turbulent upbringing. And one of Jack's family members said about Jack, "He wasn't a good father, I'll openly admit to that. When he was totally out of the picture, he didn't see the children again. They all seemed to go downhill from there." So unfortunately, uh, Diana must not have felt safe or, or confident with the arrangement she had with the three kids, because four or five years after the divorce, she took all three children, more or less into hiding from the whole Alahverdian family. And they did... Yeah. And they did not know where she had moved.
Em Schulz: Damn. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, at some...
Em Schulz: And it's her and the three kids.
Christine Schiefer: Her and the three kids. Yep. So she just kind of uprooted and went somewhere...
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Secret, sort of. At some point someone must have been concerned with their home life because the State Department of Children, Youth and Families intervened, and they got to the house determined this was not a safe place for the three children. We don't necessarily have details on that, umm, but we do know that Nick was removed from Diana's care and spent some time in foster homes and treatment facilities, which is then how later he becomes this kind of advocate for kids in the... In the system. He reportedly struggled with his mental health at a young age, he was diagnosed with "behavioral issues."
Christine Schiefer: The Alahverdian family was not contacted at all, even though they had been pretty close with their nieces and... Or their niece and nephews, umm, so they were not even contacted or given the option before the kids were sent into, uh... Sent into foster care. In 1994, Diana met a man named David Rossi, which by the way is definitely the name of the man in Criminal Minds. Uh...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I just like... Every time I say it, I'm like, David Rossi. Uh, so side note, if you're wondering why that rings a bell, umm, that is why.
Em Schulz: Well, imagine the, the character or the, the actor playing that, and then all of a sudden this story comes on, and he goes, oh oh.
Christine Schiefer: Shit, not that David Rossi.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Whoa. Whoopsies. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah, so David Rossi played by... Let's see. Who does... Who plays David Rossi?
Em Schulz: David Rossi.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Meta. It's meta.
Christine Schiefer: So meta. Joe Mantegna. Joe, Joe Mantegna. I don't know how to say that. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Joe Montana?
Christine Schiefer: No. [laughter] Mantegna.
Em Schulz: Mantegna. Okay, cool.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. In 1994, Diana met David Rossi at a restaurant where she was waitressing, and he was performing because he was a professional singer, entertainer, and Engelbert Humperdinck impersonator.
Em Schulz: Girl, what? Hang on.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Say it again.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Bring it back.
Christine Schiefer: So this is... This is where I tell you one of the craziest thing that's ever happened to me, which was gonna be my reason for drinking this week. And I will get to the full story next week because we don't have time. But I had asked for a sign from the universe, and I was doing this meditation, and do you know who Engelbert Humperdinck is?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: He's like a British pop singer from like the '80s, '90s.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, just with the most ridiculous name. And, umm, I was doing this meditation and it was like, contact your guides or whatever. And all of a sudden, I just heard the name Engelbert, and I went, well, that's just ridiculous. Like, who the hell is named Engelbert? The only one I know is that weird impersonator guy.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or not impersonator guy. I'm sorry. That weird pop star guy. And so I was like, well, that's random. But then I kind of thought about it and I was like, "Oh, Engel in German means angel." So I was like, "Oh, that's kind of fun." You know, Engel means angel like, uh, who knows? Maybe... Anyway, so then I said... Then the person who was leading the meditation said, ask for a sign. Like, if you're not confident in the name that you heard, ask for a sign that maybe, umm... That maybe you'll, you'll... That they'll confirm it. So today... That was yesterday.
Em Schulz: The, the way I would've been... The way I would've been begging for a different sign, I'd be like, "What on Earth did you mean?"
Christine Schiefer: Please, anything else. I literally was writing down like, could it mean Bert? And then my brain was like, nope, Engelbert.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So then I was like, well, that's crazy. So I'm running around, I'm doing stuff, I'm bringing Leona to her music class, et cetera, and then I'm like, "Oh, let me go, uh, do, uh... Read through these notes." And I'm... I'm like reading through and all of a sudden I get to, he was a professional Engelbert Humperdinck impersonator. And I went, are you fucking kidding me?
Em Schulz: That sounds like... That's amazing, but also...
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "I've never heard that name out like anywhere ever."
Em Schulz: Engelbert Humperdinck sounds like, like a slur on Barney.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, you're, you're being a real Engelbert Humperdinck, if you know what I'm saying. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, you just said the E word. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So that was the weirdest... Isn't that weird? Like...
Em Schulz: That's just crazy.
Christine Schiefer: I was just like, "Is this the universe making fun of me? I don't know." I just... It was such a shocking moment. And I have an app that reads my notes out loud to me, so I'm like driving and I literally just heard Engelbert Humperdinck impersonator. And I went, holy shit. Yeah. So, anyway.
Em Schulz: Weird. So what does that... What does that mean? Does that mean like you're on the right path?
Christine Schiefer: I don't... So the... Well, so the...
Em Schulz: Does it mean that you're...
Christine Schiefer: The meditation I was doing was like a mediumship meditation. It was like, oh, contact your guides who are gonna help you with, with your mediumship abilities. And so I was like, okay. So I guess you have a specific guide that can almost acts like a bouncer if you're doing mediumship, where they kind of are the ones that facilitate it and like bring people in and out. It's like... I, I don't know. I always think of it as like a bouncer almost. So they were like, "Oh, do a meditation to figure out... " I'm taking a course online, it's a whole thing, "Uh, to figure out their name." And I fucking heard Engelbert, and I went, that's ridiculous. And then she said, if you don't feel confident, or you feel like maybe you just made that a up, why don't you ask for a sign? Literally, within a day, I saw this. I don't think I've ever read that person's name anywhere...
Em Schulz: That's insane.
Christine Schiefer: In the universe.
Christine Schiefer: Well, Eva's asking the same question I had, which is, it was... It's the, the five-fingered or the six-fingered guy from, uh, from Princess Bride.
Christine Schiefer: Oh My God.
Em Schulz: Humperdinck. Oh no, he was... Humperdinck was the king or something that he... That Princess Buttercup was gonna marry. But that was the only time I've ever heard that name, and when you first said Humperdinck impersonator, I was like, an actor already impersonated Humperdinck on Princess Bride. But...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, prince... Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. You're totally right, Prince Humperdinck, yeah. But the Engelbert part for sure, I had not heard anywhere.
Em Schulz: Prince Humperdinck.
Christine Schiefer: And the fact that engel means angel.
Em Schulz: That's even weirder, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's weird, right?
Em Schulz: I feel like what I would've read from that would've been, oh, my angel's name is Bert. And then for the rest of his life, I would've been not deadnaming... Not deadnaming, misnaming, misnaming my angel...
Christine Schiefer: I know. Deadnaming in a different way. Deadnaming... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I would have been like, "Oh Bert." Angel, I would've just come up with a whole other name for my angel and be like, "Oh, that's Bert." And he'd be like, "My name's Todd. What are you talking about?"
Christine Schiefer: So that's why I said, I need a sign to confirm that, 'cause that's crazy talk.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then the universe said, what about this? And I went, are you kidding me? So anyway, I don't know what it means. I looked up the meaning of the name. The internet is like, it means Engelbert Humperdinck the only person who's ever been named that. So I was like, I don't know what it means. But anyway, that's my side note on Engelbert Humperdinck. But my life this week has been a series of very weird synchronicities. I'll get to that next week 'cause I have a whole story about it and like some creepy crazy shit that happened. Umm, but that was part of it. Anyway, so she meets this guy and they have an immediate spark.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And Diana tells David, sorry, I have these three kids. They're so difficult to manage on my own. I don't have time for a relationship. But David really wanted to be with her, so he's like, "You know, why don't you bring the kids over to meet me?" She does. And in a later interview, David said, "When I tell you they destroyed my apartment, they were like terrorists."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It gets dicey because David recalls that 8-year-old Nick regularly hit his mother, Diana...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Beat his younger siblings. None of them seemed to have any boundaries or like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You know, sense of private space or, uh, physical gentleness with each other.
Em Schulz: Did, did David Rossi stick around after that?
Christine Schiefer: He sure did. So Diana told David that the children were "medicated" and almost never left the house because she couldn't handle their behavior. So we're already seeing quite a bit of a tumultuous situation here. David was determined to stay with Diana, but he wasn't, this sounds terrible, really interested in her kids. Umm, she told him he would have to adopt them if he married her, so he tried to negotiate, but it was a deal breaker. So he finally relented and agreed to adopt Nick and his siblings, which I'm sure feels great as a kid. Like they're debating like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Well, I don't want to adopt your kids. I just want to marry you." And she's like, "Well, you have to adopt the kids." And he's like, "Well, I don't want to." And then fine, "I'll do it." Like I'm sure that doesn't feel very loving, but whatever. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he relented and he agreed to adopt Nick and his siblings, and they got married in 1996, but things only got worse from here. Nick was nine, Joseph six, Diandra five, but their stepdad, stepdad felt totally out of his depth, he felt like he could not handle them. He described Nick as wicked and he's nine, remember? Now, of course, we know he needed professional help, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: This child has been traumatized, I already mentioned rape and torture at the hands of foster parents. Like this kid has been diagnosed with behavioral issues, like this child needs professional help. David says he did receive ample support, which I would hedge my bets that might not be true. But according to him, they took Nick to see counselors and some counselors came to their home, and he was hospitalized more than once for mental health and behavioral treatment. Umm, and then things get iffy again, because David claims Nick was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.
Christine Schiefer: Now, according to a paper in a 1989 medical journal, which would've been the... At the time like the, the up-to-date medical information.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Narcissistic personality disorders can be identified in childhood and adolescence using the same diagnostic criteria as for adults. However, we know now that that diagnosis is not appropriate for a child because children's personalities grow and change and shift and react to their circumstances, and it's normal for children to go through phases of what we might call selfish behavior or narcissistic behavior. They're children, you know. Umm, especially in an unstable environment where they are not having their emotional, physical safety needs met, you know. And so neglectful, abusive, tumultuous environments are often considered risk factors for children developing narcissistic traits, and his childhood definitely fits that. But now you don't diagnose a child with narcissistic personality disorder. This is an adult, uh, assessment.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: If that makes sense. So when Nick was 12, he got into an argument with his mom, Diana, in a store while the family was in Florida for a Disney World trip. According to David, the stepfather, David Rossi, Nick punched his mom, Diana, and David said he lost it at Nick. He said all the years that had built up kind of over...
Em Schulz: Yeah, he just kind of saw red. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Saw red. Exactly. Uh, according to David, he hit Nick until he was bloody.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: He said "I mean, I broke his nose. I couldn't stop." And this is a 12-year-old.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Police responded to the scene...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And arrested David, but then when they saw the history of Nick's mental health diagnoses, they said, never mind. You're, you're clear. Which is like, "Oh, okay. Okay. This child has been traumatized and has behavioral issues, you can hit him if you want." You know, I mean, what the fuck? It's just so wild to me. So in late 1999, 12-year-old Nick is now in and out of foster care and inpatient treatment. He returns home Christmas Eve, but Diana and David asked the state to remove him from the home a few days later because of conflict within the family, and he was placed in a shelter for boy youth. Before long...
Em Schulz: But did... Sorry. Did his sibling... His siblings stayed behind, like for...
Christine Schiefer: This next line is, before long, his younger siblings were also in state care.
Em Schulz: Okay. Oh, damn. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, yeah.
Em Schulz: Do we know if Nick was "the worst" behaviorally...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Or were all of his siblings equally?
Christine Schiefer: I believe he... I think perhaps partially because he was the oldest, umm, you know, he would beat his younger siblings, and so I'm sure a lot of that played into it. Uh, but he, he was definitely the one that...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Stood out as the most, uh, you know, behaviorally out of control. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So Diana and David did end up divorcing in 2003. And this was right around the time, uh, Nick began to make a, a name for himself in state politics. And remember he's pretty young, he was born in... Oh God, don't make me do math. He was born in '87 and it's 2003. What does that mean?
Em Schulz: '87 and 2003 is 13, 16.
Christine Schiefer: 16? Perfect. So 16, 17 that... Yeah...
Em Schulz: I think so.
Christine Schiefer: That matches up. Is when he starts to, uh, get involved in state politics, and he's like this young guy and he has this tumultuous background. Right? So he... And he's a very engaging speaker, and that's when I said people had this idea of him as like this almost, umm, Dickensian character, like, oh, he's like pulling himself back up to save the world and, uh, all that kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Right. He's so strong and brave and lone wolf.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. And like being so young and having seen so much, uh, really added to that. So a state representative and his wife actually attempted to adopt Nick after hearing him speak, like that is how...
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Moved they were, umm, but they were warned...
Em Schulz: He's got a way with words.
Christine Schiefer: He's got a way with words and with people. They were warned against it, however, by family court chief, Judge Jeremiah S. Jeremiah. What a name. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Girl, what? Are you kidding me? His name is Jeremiah Jeremiah?
Christine Schiefer: I feel like... Uh, no, his name is Jeremiah S. Jeremiah, and that is Judge to you.
Em Schulz: Oh, so it's Jeremiah...
Christine Schiefer: The honorable...
Em Schulz: The, the S stands for still...
Christine Schiefer: The honorable...
Em Schulz: Jeremiah, I'm Still Jeremiah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: JD or something. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Esquire. Yeah. Uh, so they, they tried to do this, and then the family court judge was like, "I wouldn't do that if I were you." Which is like, "Oh, okay. That's, uh, alarming. Why?" And he said, there's something wrong with Nick. Sorry, there's a dog.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Don't you miss the days when Gia would just bark through our entire recording.
Em Schulz: I miss when he would be in our literal laps, barking into the microphone.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: At least now it's a little distant.
Christine Schiefer: He'd be like drooling into the microphone. Umm, yeah, so this guy... This judge is like, "Something's wrong with him. Sorry. Not a good idea." So in 2006, Nick was 18 and living with a couple in a short-term foster agreement that would terminate when he turned 19. But the couple cared for Nick and remained a part of his life throughout his young adulthood. And it was just about then his like young adulthood era that things really began to unravel. Now at this point, he's going by Nick Rossi. He has taken on his stepdad's last name.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And we're in the year 2008. So 17 plus 5...
Em Schulz: 21.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Thank you. I'm so bad. So 22... 21, 22.
Em Schulz: It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: In '08, Nick was living in Ohio, where two women at Sinclair Community College in Dayton accused him of sexual assault.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. History is repeating itself.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting, huh? One of the women reported that she had lunch with Nick and he offered to escort her to her next class. They got to a stairwell, he cornered her against a wall and raped her. She told an interviewer...
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She told an interviewer, this is broad daylight. Someone even walked past, but she said that they just kind of froze and the person thought they were just like a couple having PDA.
Em Schulz: Right. They were, like...
Christine Schiefer: You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Someone... I mean, in our high school, the stairwell was known where people would hook up. So I feel like if you just heard someone hooking up, you just kept it moving, you know?
Christine Schiefer: And she was like paralyzed with fear because she actually said she thought...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He was going to kill her in... On the stairwell. And so, you know, I mean, terrifying.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So he rapes her, then he just lets her go, and she was so in shock that she went to class. Like she just walked straight to class. She just was like, I couldn't process.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Can't blame her. That's like fully just like, oh, I don't know how to react. I guess I'm just gonna keep...
Christine Schiefer: Just your body goes...
Em Schulz: Keep moving.
Christine Schiefer: Into autopilot. Right? So you're just onward normal life.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so she goes to class, guess what? She walks out of class. He's standing there waiting for her.
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: And he's there to apologize.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so my friend. She said, he apologized to me. He said he couldn't help it. I was just so beautiful. He...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Fucking vomitous. He begged her not to press charges, and she's like, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Immediately pressed charges.
Em Schulz: And then immediately walked to the police station.
Christine Schiefer: At first, authorities said that, you know, they're, they're trying to find evidence. It's like hard because there's not much evidence, you know, it's just kind of like, uh, an accusation. But when Nick finds out, he...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ends up filing his own charges, claiming she...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Had assaulted him. And so...
Em Schulz: Please.
Christine Schiefer: Is that not...
Em Schulz: That's... By the way Law & Order...
Christine Schiefer: David Rossi is on the case.
Em Schulz: And that's like...
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Every other episode too.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so, so he says, oh no, she assaulted me. And that's when investigators go, all right buddy, you've said enough, we were trying to figure out an angle to like take this on, you've just given us one. So you're being sketchy as fuck. So he basically walked himself right into that scenario.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well done.
Christine Schiefer: And he was convicted of misdemeanor sexual imposition, public indecency, which, you know, wasn't quite the extent of what he had done. However, it was a charge that required him to register as a sex offender, so at least he was, you know...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: On the list. And this...
Em Schulz: And this is like Mr. Advocacy, right? Like this is like...
Christine Schiefer: It is. Yes.
Em Schulz: Public figure. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. And so that condition made Nick's accuser feel guilty because she was like, "Shit, now he is on the sex offender list." But she also had this kind of internal debate of, well, I don't want someone else to be hurt. Right? And as a victim, I feel like you end up with this double whammy or quadruple whammy, whatever it may be, of not only am I now responsible for, uh, speaking up for myself, now I feel responsible to stop this person from hurting the next person. And so she definitely felt that pressure, and so she... Even though she felt a little bit guilty for putting him on that sex offender list indirectly, she didn't put him on the sex offender list. He did that himself, but you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, she, she just knew that she had to keep this fight going because he could hurt someone else. So Nick continued to fight this conviction for six years, and he endlessly harassed her, this victim. He... I know, right? He...
Em Schulz: Wow. I mean, I'm not surprised, so far.
Christine Schiefer: Posted photos of her and her child online. This is like years later. He doxed her, he posted her address, her phone number, he posted lies about her. He was trying to like spread rumors about her. He even took MySpace posts from her page and then photoshopped them and like made it look like... Well, he didn't make it look like, 'cause they were terribly done, but he tried to make it look like she had drunkenly confessed on her MySpace page that Nick had never really assaulted her. And then he tried to prove that, he tried to give that to detectives, and they were like, "This is Photoshop."
Em Schulz: What the fuck? Is this not like he... Yeah. I was gonna say like, can you not...
Christine Schiefer: He literally just... Right. And you can go on her page. And he's like, "No, she deleted it." And it's like, "No, you made this up."
Em Schulz: Every time I log into my Facebook, it says you are accessing this from a different location. And I'm like, that... I don't know how that's true, but if it says it to me every single time, it must say it somewhere else. So, you know...
Christine Schiefer: This should be in jail and he's trying to hack into your account.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So he's like taking fake Facebook, MySpace posts and, and making shit up, posting her... Pictures of her and her child online to like dox her. It's just really F-ed up. And he then... Because these photoshopped images were so badly done, they were thrown out immediately.
Em Schulz: Well, I... That's one of the reasons like it... By the way, I don't... Do we know as an adult that he had narcissistic personality disorder?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, we do not... We do not know.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm just gonna go off of just the pure classic criminal confidence...
Christine Schiefer: Indeed.
Em Schulz: Of like, I love that he thinks that well, these are good enough for me to believe...
Christine Schiefer: 100%.
Em Schulz: If I were a cop, and it... If I were an... If I were an idiot cop, it would work. And it's like, you literally, why do you think...
Christine Schiefer: Why do you think you're smarter than everyone. Yeah. It's almost like...
Em Schulz: Photoshop genius.
Christine Schiefer: There's like this weird unearned confidence that just happens in some of these people. Umm, and I, I don't either and...
Em Schulz: I just don't get it.
Christine Schiefer: Because they were thrown out, he was so pissed that he sued her for libel.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Again, like, oh, how, how were you the victim in this? But okay.
Christine Schiefer: Basically, all in all, he made it as difficult as possible for her to move on, like psychologically from this attack. And turns out, she wasn't alone. Because in 2008, a woman got together with Nick in Utah after they met on MySpace of all things, and they dated briefly, uh, during which he borrowed money that he never repaid her. And being in debt to her made him really angry. And she reported that he became very rough with her during sex, so she broke up with him. On September 13th, 2008, he told her, hey, can we meet up? I have the money I owe you. She said, Nick met up with her, she thought he was going to repay her. Instead, he raped her, and he told her that it was her fault. He was mentally unstable.
Em Schulz: I don't... That's so circular 'cause like, I'm like, it's... That's the most unstable thing I've ever heard. And he would be like, "Well, yeah, well, it's her fault." And I'm like, "Wait a minute."
Christine Schiefer: It's like, okay, you're gonna sue her too. I bet. Umm, afterward Nick wouldn't let her leave his home.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. So, so now he's holding her hostage in her own home.
Christine Schiefer: After raping her. And at a certain point, she's trapped there. He gets distracted by a text message, she fucking runs and bolts out the house.
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: And she goes to a hospital to seek help and they collect DNA from a rape kit. However, it wasn't processed until 2018, a decade after the attack.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: A decade. A decade. Backlog. So in 2017, the state tested this DNA along with DNA from other rape kits, which had been neglected for years and a year later, it was finally analyzed and identified as a match to the DNA evidence from that Dayton Rape at the Sinclair Community College. And it was Nick's DNA on both. So now Nick faced rape charges in two states, but investigators were closing in on him for yet another crime. This time, the FBI was involved.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Because they are after Nick for fraud. Sharon Lane of Ohio, who was one of Nick's former foster parents, accused him of opening more than 22 credit lines in her husband's name after he had left the house. According to the complaint, Nick had racked up nearly $200,000 of debt under the couple's name.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Whoopsies.
Christine Schiefer: He also owed his second ex-wife, Catherine, over $50,000 on an outstanding loan. So investigators began putting together Nick's story.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, wow.
Christine Schiefer: And it's all over the place, as you can imagine. Like rape case in Dayton, rape case in Utah, this fraud over here, this like bizarre political figure over here in Rhode Island. Like it's just all over the place.
Em Schulz: Right. But it's, it's not his fault that he's mentally unstable. It's her fault.
Christine Schiefer: It is her fault. That is true. You know what?
Em Schulz: Come on.
Christine Schiefer: You're onto something there. You're a good lawyer.
Em Schulz: I... Onto something? I know it for a fact.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So Catherine, who is a fucking hero, the second ex-wife, secretly recorded Nick's abuse against her. It's very...
Em Schulz: Good. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's very scary to listen to. Just incredibly a powerhouse move. Very brave. She used that as evidence to seek protection from him. And when she finally did end things and walk out of the house, she got into her car, but Nick got into his car and began chasing her down the road. And she actually ended up crashing her car because of... Because the escape was so intense and, and terrifying. And he ended up driving away to avoid the police. So this is like how unstable this guy is and how violent and aggressive. So the Utah County attorney reported they had amassed reports from four separate states involving criminal cases of sexual assault, harassment, and possible kidnapping from 2007 through 2019 that Nicholas Alahverdian had committed.
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: So Utah County attorney...
Em Schulz: Say that again.
Christine Schiefer: When they're putting together the case of, umm, the, the woman that he had raped, and held in his house...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They were going through and collecting evidence, and they reported that they had amassed reports from four separate states involving criminal cases of sexual assault, harassment, and possible kidnapping from 2007 through 2019. So it's almost like Utah finally was able to say like, "Hey, wait a minute. We have all these things. They're all under the... It's all the same guy." According to reports, he had a history of cornering women where he would threaten suicide if they didn't give in to his demands, or he would quote, "force a non-consensual sexual encounter."
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: So Nick moved back to Dayton, Ohio...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Where he started a nonprofit. Wow. And his nonprofit was an attempt to revitalize downtown Dayton. And in fact, according to his former wife, Nick used the organization to steal from high school and college students. [chuckle] So this was a, a front.
Em Schulz: I would... I mean, not only a front, but I think I, I would not be surprised of when he first started it, it was because he had whatever this means "good intentions," because he thought that that would almost excuse his, his...
Christine Schiefer: Like, look better for him.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But like, also that's like that's the wild part about his confidence is like, oh, after all of these charges or all these... All these accusations against me, which are true, I'm assuming, like I can also just head up into like the public sphere and everyone can look at me and nothing will happen.
Christine Schiefer: It's...
Em Schulz: And I won't even get caught. Like that's crazy. I would be... If I... If I had that many accusations against me, whether or not they were true, the last thing I would do is show my face to the public ever again.
Christine Schiefer: And start like more hijinks, you know?
Em Schulz: And start more bullshit. Like that's, that's like his confidence growing of like, "I got away with, with small town stuff. I gotta get big, I gotta... I'm losing, losing steam."
Christine Schiefer: And I think sometimes it's that attitude is the reason that they're successful, because people like us are like, "Well, you would never do that." You know? And it's like, if somebody's so bold and brazen, you're like, "Well, they must know something I don't know." You know? I feel like there's just an element of like being so brazen...
Em Schulz: Well, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That people just kind of believe you.
Em Schulz: I think they're just not afraid of risk. Like, like a... Like a logical person would be.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I think they're, they're just like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, there is totally, totally.
Em Schulz: They're like, "In fact, I crave risk and I chase risk and I'll do it wherever, even if it's at the detriment to me and my family, and even if I'm gonna get busted and go to jail." Like...
Christine Schiefer: 100%. And that part doesn't even matter, or. Or like factor in at all.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: And so that's exactly what happened. He starts this nonprofit to revitalize Dayton when in reality, and this is according to his former wife, he is stealing from high school and college students. And this is how he did it. He would mail out applications for college scholarships, which required $20 to $40 application fees, then he would take the fees, and then just throw away their application. Like there was... There was no scholarship.
Em Schulz: It's giving like Creed from The Office when he collects money for that woman that got fired, And then he just, like... He pulls it all out of the get well soon card and then throws the card in the trash and pockets all the money.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. That's exactly it. It's like so brazen and so ridiculous that like you can't believe someone's doing this as part of a... Like he legitimately founded a nonprofit. It's not like he's walking down the street like, "Here wanna fill this out and give me $20?" Like he's genuinely mailing this shit out under the name of a nonprofit and he's getting these $20 to $40 application fees and just pocketing them.
Em Schulz: Which, uh, scares me too, because if he's capable of it, there's no way he's the only person who opened up a nonprofit who does this.
Christine Schiefer: Definitely not. That's why we have websites like Charity Navigator. [laughter] Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah. But it freaks me out though. Like how...
Christine Schiefer: And it was just like for...
Em Schulz: Simply it was done, where I'm just like, I would like you to at least have to go through a few hoops before you're just ripping people off.
Christine Schiefer: Then made his way back to Rhode Island where he continued his advocacy work and political career.
Em Schulz: Okay. Political career.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean that's like... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But by the time investigators were catching up to Nick for his crimes, he no longer lived in the United States. Now...
Em Schulz: It's almost as if he had to dash.
Christine Schiefer: It almost as if he had to, to dash right on over to a new country.
Em Schulz: Skedaddle.
Christine Schiefer: He claimed that speaking out against the state as a teenager and young adult had made him powerful enemies who had threatened to kill and silence him.
Em Schulz: Okay, relax.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I feel like half of our listeners went, uh-huh, okay. I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: We all did a collective, okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. We're all shaking in our boots, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, we're all so scared. He fled the US to live in Ireland for the sake of his own safety. And then he began contacting people back in the US to tell them the tragic news that he was dying of cancer.
Em Schulz: Oh, how convenient. Maybe he was, I don't know, but how convenient.
Christine Schiefer: He, he wasn't. He wasn't.
Em Schulz: Okay. How convenient.
Christine Schiefer: What Nick didn't know was that many of the people he had contacted had already been informed by the FBI that he was being looked into as a fugitive. So the people who were at first like devastated about this cancer diagnosis are now learning, wait a minute, this guy is actually a con artist and we don't even think he's sick at all. So in 2020 when he died, uh, investigators contacted Interpol to try and find confirmation of his death, and nobody could provide any sort of death certificate. So do you remember that mass that, uh, Nick's alleged widow had planned to host for his memorial mass with all these like... And they were going to do this big...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The big one 'cause he's so special.
Em Schulz: The super big one because he was such a good person.
Christine Schiefer: So they contacted this Catholic church, umm, where Nick's alleged widow Louise had, had planned for... To host this, uh, event, and they told the priest that Nick is not dead, please cancel the mass that you have planned.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What a fun... Like what's the walkie-talkie code for that? It's just like, 86 the funeral.
Christine Schiefer: We've got a... 86 the funeral. We've, we've got a... We've got a dead man walking, 86 the funeral.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, 10-2. 10-2. Okay. So they told the priest, Nick is not dead, cancel the mass. However, it turns out Louise had contacted multiple churches to host...
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: Multiple memorial masses in Nick's honor. And the authorities contacted each church to say, we've got a dead man walking, 86 the funeral.
Christine Schiefer: 10-2, 10-2.
Christine Schiefer: 10-2. 10-2.
Em Schulz: Well that's... I mean, that's why you need a phone tree. You need one person to call and then that person calls and then that person calls, and you just all rely on each other.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, mine did too. But that was...
Em Schulz: My school had a phone tree.
Christine Schiefer: The '90s and 2000s.
Em Schulz: That was the '90s. Yeah. But I loved a phone tree. I thought it was so useful. And also everyone...
Christine Schiefer: It's such a fun idea.
Em Schulz: Everyone had to unify. You really had to rely on each other. I remember...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, what a... What a powerhouse.
Em Schulz: The people who were supposed to call me was, uh, the Benez house, and they were supposed to call if there was a snow day, and when it started snowing, it would be like, "Have the Benez's called yet? Have they called yet? Have they called yet?"
Christine Schiefer: Dial the phone.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, I did the... I would do the classic inside-out PJs and then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh for sure. Flush the toilet. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Flush the toilet. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Run up the water bill, et cetera, et cetera.
Em Schulz: People who are not from the States are probably like, what?
Christine Schiefer: Every child has their own weird weather traditions. There's no way they don't.
Em Schulz: Which I will say, that... You know who I learned that from? The most Christian families that I... That went to the school with me, and tell me that's not a, a manifesting ritual.
Christine Schiefer: Sorcery.
Em Schulz: Where you're trying to like control the weather, that's literally the weather witches...
Christine Schiefer: I'm the weather witch.
Em Schulz: Three rituals.
Christine Schiefer: I hope they... Yeah. Episode one, RIP. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh man. Okay. So when Louise, the wife, hears that these masses are like getting mass canceled, uh, she starts sending enraged emails to the priests, which I feel like is probably against God's rules or something. Umm, some people who knew Nick read the emails and went, that's Nick writing this, guys this is Nick.
Em Schulz: Who's writing the, the cancel the... Cancel the mass?
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. So when, when Louise, his "wife" finds out that the, the FBI has told all these churches to 86 the masses...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: She's pissed. And she starts sending emails like to the priests saying, how dare you cancel this honor... This mass in honor of my dead husband.
Em Schulz: Oh I see, he's canceling his own funerals or his own masses.
Christine Schiefer: No. No, no, no. The investigators are canceling the masses because they know he's not dead. And so his wife, who organized all the masses, Louise, hears that the churches are like, hey, we're canceling these masses. We heard from detectives, they want us to cancel the mass. And she's pissed. She's like, "You're canceling my dead husband's memorial service. How dare you?" Does that make sense?
Em Schulz: Yes. No.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So the wife Louise is pissed off that all these memorial... She had planned all these nice memorials for her dead husband...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And now they're all being canceled, she finds out.
Em Schulz: Yes, on it.
Christine Schiefer: It. When Louise's emails get in the hands of some people who knew Nick while he was alive, they're reading these emails going, wait a minute, who's Louise? This is not... There's no Louise.
Em Schulz: Oh, I see.
Christine Schiefer: Spoiler alert, there's no Louise. It's all Nick. He is calling all these...
Em Schulz: So he...
Christine Schiefer: All these churches and saying, I want my dead husband to have these beautiful services, and...
Em Schulz: I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ultimate, ultimate... Like this cockiness of like calling funerals to be like, "Why aren't you throwing these lavish parties to celebrate me?"
Christine Schiefer: For me? I mean... Wow, the balls. I mean...
Em Schulz: I don't understand. That's the meanest thing you could ever do.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. So now these enraged emails are going to priests from Louise, the widow of Nick Alahverdian, and everyone's like, "That's not the widow of Nick Alahverdian. We're pretty sure that's Nick Alahverdian." So yeah, and we can only extrapolate from there that he's probably the one who emailed in the first place to ask for all these high-flying politicians to speak at his own funeral.
Em Schulz: That's crazy. How would you know if one of your friends was actually writing emails that... I mean, if it were Eva, it would start with eek immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Well, not eek. Ek.
Em Schulz: Ek.
Christine Schiefer: If it said eek, I'd be like...
Em Schulz: Not, not Eva.
Christine Schiefer: Someone stole Eva's phone.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's a great way. That's another good question. How would you know if my phone was texting you, but you knew it wasn't me?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, you...
Em Schulz: I... How would you know? Would the ruse be... Would it go on for a long time?
Christine Schiefer: No, I think I would know.
Em Schulz: You would know right away?
Christine Schiefer: You'd be too... If you were too nice and like... Not... That sounds bad, but like too, too like bubbly, I'd be like, "What is wrong with you? We don't talk like that."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or if I use punctuation.
Christine Schiefer: Like, we are very like... We are like short... Like we are like very, umm, concise when we... Not concise, like we talk a lot. Right? But like you wouldn't be like, "Oh, how are you doing?" You know. Like the pleasantries...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We don't do pleasantries. It's just like...
Em Schulz: We don't have conversations. We really do save all of our conversations for the podcast. We're really...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And if we're just bitching about something, it's like just like ranting, but there's not like the usual, like how's your day going? You know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We don't ask each other for updates, we just update each other. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We just give the update. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Umm...
Em Schulz: I, I would know if you... If someone stole your phone if you were using that font you...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: That, that emoji you hate so much with the little watery eyes.
Christine Schiefer: I hate that emoji. Yes. That's a hundred percent.
Em Schulz: I love that emoji.
Christine Schiefer: I fucking... Everyone loves that emoji. You know why?
Em Schulz: And if all the texts were coming in papyrus, I would know too. Other than that... If all the... If all the text message fonts were coming in in Papyrus.
Christine Schiefer: Comic Sans, Papyrus, it would have to be for sure a Helvetica. Otherwise, it is someone else on the line.
Em Schulz: One of the things I went to, umm... Well, that I did this weekend with my mom is I took her on a boat, and we were going through this marina. We were looking at all the other boats and seeing like the names that people picked for their boat. Someone literally... The boat's name was Yachts of Fun. It was like lots of fun. And it was spelt in Papyrus and I was like, I can't tell if this is great or horrible, so.
Christine Schiefer: It's both. I think it should be Yachts of Fun in Curlz MT. Then you're almost leaning into it. You know. What's our boat's name?
Em Schulz: And That's Why We Sync.
Christine Schiefer: And That's Why We Sync.
Em Schulz: We're so good.
Christine Schiefer: We're in sync.
Em Schulz: You and me, we're like this. We're like this. We're like this. You know?
Christine Schiefer: That's how I know. That's how I know you... You're not texting me.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. We'd be like what the name of that boat and then...
Em Schulz: That's how we would know if someone... If all of a sudden we weren't connected. What?
Christine Schiefer: Everyone who ever listens to the podcast is like, we all know that dumbass.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know what? I saw three boats with the name Boat.
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious?
Em Schulz: They just... Which like it was funny the first time and after three times, it's like, oh, overused, overdone.
Christine Schiefer: Make everyone else change it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty good. It's not funny anymore.
Em Schulz: Like, oh what's your boat's name? Boat. Okay. Well, now it's not funny anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so...
Em Schulz: Okay. He got found out. It is his... That he is... He is the widow.
Christine Schiefer: At this point, nobody knows, but they're... The friends are saying...
Em Schulz: Oh, the police think he's alive. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The people who knew Nick are like, this is getting fishy, right? So investigators file a warrant for Nick's arrest, but they seal it because they don't want Nick to see it online. Like they don't want him to be getting Google alerts and discover that he's still wanted, you know. He wants... They want him to think that they believe he's really dead.
Em Schulz: Right. 'Cause you gotta... You, you gotta play the game to catch him in the act.
Christine Schiefer: That's right, cat and mouse. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So those who knew Nick felt that his obituary and reports of his death, which memorialized him, all read as if he had written them about himself. And...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I scratched out. He was amazing.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He... Yeah. What a good friend to all. There were also attempted edits to Wikipedia articles about him that appeared...
Em Schulz: WikiFeet.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He updated his wikiFeet to...
Em Schulz: Was his wikiFeet updated?
Christine Schiefer: Excellent from okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I wish I could do that.
Em Schulz: That's how I'll know your dead because... Or, or you're faking your death.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I've hacked in the mainframe of WikiFeets. Umm, there were attempted edits to Wikipedia articles about Nick that appeared to come from accounts that had belonged to him while he was alive.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: In one edit of this Wikipedia page swapped out a real photo of him with a different one that was harder to see his face so that like you couldn't recognize him in public. Like he was almost trying to change his own footprint on the internet so he could hide better. And...
Em Schulz: Oh, what a smart, smart guy. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Right? I know. So outraged by these rumors, this woman who identified herself as his wife wrote to the Providence Rhode Island newspaper, the Providence Journal, "Unless my husband was cloned and died in my arms and faked a cancer diagnosis, treatment, and heart disease/heart attacks for months before that, he passed away in my arms." However, she refused to provide a death certificate to the paper to prove... To prove his death.
Em Schulz: Or any... Or, yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Anything. Investigators agreed with Nick's acquaintances that many emails that were sent after Nick's death actually came from Nick, but he kept hiding his IP address, so it was really hard to track him down. That is until December 2021 when Scottish authorities believed they discovered Nick in the hospital. So I guess you are sort of onto it with the finding him out through COVID. Umm, that's because he had several large and distinct tattoos that made him immediately recognizable. And weirdly enough, the tattoos matched those of a man in a coma in the hospital in Glasgow. And this man, of course, was Arthur Knight who woke from this coma and said, I'm appalled. I've never even been to the United States.
Em Schulz: Was he saying it in an American accent? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, you should hear his accent.
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: It's bonkers. Yeah, it's bonkers. So his wife, Miranda, welcomed reporters into their home in Glasgow in order to tell Arthur's story and defend him against the authorities' accusations. And turns out Arthur and Miranda... Who knows where Louise went, but Arthur and Miranda...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Is this not like so nuts? Like what happened to Louise? I don't know.
Em Schulz: I, I would love an article that says Louise on the loose. Just, I don't know. I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: We got a loose, loose Louise. Find her. We...
Em Schulz: We 86'd her. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She's, she's off the grid. So Arthur and Miranda had married in 2020, uh, when Nicholas was diagnosed with cancer and died right afterwards, allegedly. Uh, after waiting months by Arthur's side while he was in this medically induced coma, battling COVID-19, Miranda could not believe these accusations against her husband. But of course, this evidence is starting to stack up. There's the tattoos, the mugshots, his own fingerprints, which happen to match Nick's fingerprints. What are the odds? Like, come on. So reporters covering the case also began to suspect, for obvious, reasons that Miranda was kind of in on this whole thing, and that she had been posing as Louise or at least helping in the ruse to plan these memorial masses. Because it's the only thing that kind of made sense as to like while he was in the hospital who was involved, and why else would she be covering for him?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Bold of him to need, like, a co-conspirator or like...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I thought that was odd, too.
Em Schulz: I feel like when you're that cocky and you've, you've, you've rode that close to the... Flown that close to the sun, you would be too stubborn to think, oh, I need an accomplice in this.
Christine Schiefer: I know, especially a woman, you know, when you're... When you have so many...
Em Schulz: Especially when women make you mentally unstable.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. So, ultimately, a Scottish judge ruled that Arthur Knight was indeed Nicholas Alahverdian. And Nick/Arthur claimed that the extremely distinctive tattoos... This was his excuse or his explanation. He said... [laughter] He said someone tattooed those onto him while he was in a coma.
Em Schulz: I was just asleep. I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: He claims were tattooed on him while he was in a coma to frame him. This random old man. It's just so weird. Of course, the court doesn't buy it.
Em Schulz: What a... Well, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And thus began a months-long court battle to have Nick extradited to Utah, who's still waiting for him over there during which time he tried to appeal based on mistaken identity, claims that he was suffering from mental illness, that it would make it really cruel for them to extradite him. And the court, the Scottish court system determined all of his claims were false and said, moreover, there was little, if any, evidence to suggest that on the hypothesis, the appellant does indeed have such a condition, that treatment would be unavailable in Utah. So basically, if you are this unstable and you have all these, these issues, fine, then Utah will help you. Like we're still gonna ship you out of here. So four years after faking his own death, Nicholas Alahverdian was extradited to the United States just months ago in January 2024.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: His plane landed in Utah, where he immediately faced charges for two rapes and another sexual battery accusation all of which happened in '08. And as of March of this year, 2024, court proceedings were stalled because Nick had, had yet to, umm, come to a financial deal with his lawyer who was waiting for communication from Nick's wife, who was still in the UK. So there are a lot of like delays happening. And the judge acknowledged Nick's legal right to chosen defense counsel, so further legal proceedings were delayed until Nick could secure his... The lawyer that he wanted... The specific lawyer he wanted. Now, when news first broke about an American man masquerading as this Irish English academic named Arthur Knight in Scotland, people at first thought it was funny. Right? Like, what a ridiculous story, umm, because at the time, it was almost like a catch me if you can, like there were just fraud allegations. But then when the rape and assault allegations came out, people were like...
Em Schulz: Uh-oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's not funny anymore.
Em Schulz: It's not funny anymore. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Yeah. So as of May of this year, as in a few weeks ago, Nick decided to represent himself in court. Now, if that's not...
Em Schulz: Hey...
Christine Schiefer: The cherry on top of this fucking bullshit, I mean...
Em Schulz: Hey, hey, here's the most obvious way that this ends, uh...
Christine Schiefer: How did we think it would go just like that?
Em Schulz: Honestly, I mean, like what he... It baffles me how many stupid men there are.
Christine Schiefer: We shouldn't be shocked anymore, and yet, it's still shocking. That's... It's shocking.
Em Schulz: Every day, I'm like, I think I've finally met the last of them.
Christine Schiefer: Like it can't get worse. Oh, there's another one.
Em Schulz: Oh, there's always a new one. I mean, like it's just the, the uber confidence. And like, do they... I, I want to know so badly. Do they know that their confidence is blinding them and they just don't care? Or do they just think, well, this is how I'm supposed to... I don't... I don't get it.
Christine Schiefer: Well, he gave a statement about it. So he did say, well, it's not ideal, but it is what's necessary. And the judge... The judge responded, "It's not what's necessary. All you need to do is ask for a lawyer today, and I can appoint one to represent you."
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Nick refused. [laughter] So like, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: To know... Like I just don't understand just, just that cocky pride, stubborn, arrogant, insert a word here. I just don't... I don't live in that world. It's so foreign to me how someone can just... Especially, especially when you're in...
Christine Schiefer: To help on your behalf and talk for you. I'd be like, yes, in every aspect of my life, but especially in a criminal case. Like...
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying, like, especially in a pickle. Like there's no way I would ever think no, I'm good enough to not need somebody to look out for me. What? I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Take a look up down.
Em Schulz: But... And, and even... And even like if I was... I, I mean, the cockiness is what started it all and what ended it all. And it's like always such a full circle. And you would think at some point you would look within and be like, "Oh, hey, maybe I was an arrogant prick earlier and like my, my way out is to stop." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like that lack of introspection it seems to be the defining factor. Like there's just a... Like a... There's not a care to, to look inward ever. It's just like...
Em Schulz: It just blows my mind every time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's amazing. So when warned that he might face five years to life in prison, especially if he represents himself, uh, Nick said, that's a chance I'm willing to take, your honor. So...
Em Schulz: I told you he loves... They love the risk. That's it. They just...
Christine Schiefer: The risk. It's just that they fucking eat it up. So now, you know, I'm following this. We're hopefully all following this and we can only wait and see, uh, the outcome for Nicholas Alahverdian AKA Rossi AKA Arthur Knight. Umm, but yeah, if you guys watch the... You should watch the, uh, Dateline episode because they actually did an interview with him and she asks to... When he's pretending to be Arthur Knight. And she asks to see... It was Andrea Canning on Dateline. And she asked to see his tattoos and he like refuses to show them. But of course, in the interview, the whole time he's wearing a mask, like a COVID mask, even though it's like digital, because he doesn't wanna show his face. Right? So he's like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And he's doing this fake accent. It's out of control. Like she called it the most absurd... I think, not absurd, she called it like the most...
Em Schulz: Frustrating, infuriating.
Christine Schiefer: Outrageous interview. She was like, "This is gonna go down in history as like my craziest interview I ever did, like with this guy pretending to be this Scottish intellectual."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, "No, you're just a rapist from the United States." Like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Get a grip. Anyway...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Well...
Christine Schiefer: And to claim that they tattooed him in his... In a coma, like what a wild fucking...
Em Schulz: Again, it's like, are you so confident you think you can... You can get away with it, or do you just think everyone's so stupid that they would fall for it, or like...
Christine Schiefer: It must be both.
Em Schulz: I am just... Or like, 'cause I... If I said that... If I said that, I would be knowing full, full, full stop. I am lying through my teeth. I'm praying to God someone believes me and doesn't question me any further. I feel like he really thought like, "This idiot's gonna obviously think that's real enough. That's good enough 'cause my idea is always the smartest in the room." So that's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just say the first thing that comes out of your head.
Em Schulz: Insane. Oh my God. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Men. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, as I said in the dateline, like behind the scenes that I listened to as well, at least no one died except for Nicholas Alahverdian, allegedly and then came back to life. So, you know, at least for once I have a story...
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: A crime story that's, you know... They called it a mysterious death in the like logline because she was like, well, we couldn't say a death 'cause nobody really died. But it was a mysterious death 'cause it was a fake death, umm...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, so I've been wanting to cover that for a while. So that's the story. Talk about a, uh, modern-day puzzle, puzzler.
Em Schulz: That's a great... That's great. That was great. You know?
Christine Schiefer: A thinker.
Em Schulz: A thinker. A, a stumper. A, uh... Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: A temple tapper.
Christine Schiefer: Temple tapper? I've never heard that before.
Em Schulz: I made it up just now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's really good.
Em Schulz: I like it. We'll bring it back. Okay. A temple tapper.
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: Okay. Fine. Well, well done. I loved that story.
Christine Schiefer: I did too. We did good.
Em Schulz: I know this is a long episode, but I loved our stories today.
Christine Schiefer: We're so good at this.
Em Schulz: We're so good at our jobs, it's crazy. We're literally so good.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. We should do... We should host a podcast.
Em Schulz: Okay. I... Maybe we need to, speaking of 86, maybe 86 the attitude on my end, because I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was like, hello.
Em Schulz: I'm very quickly turning... Because I feel like I'm teetering... We just spent the whole time talking about how confident and how like this guy is, and now all of a sudden I'm like, we're so good at our jobs. So...
Christine Schiefer: You were like, wow, we're... We literally are the smartest, best people and everyone else is an idiot. It's crazy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. This is where my therapist would say, we need to enter the humble zone. So, umm, humble. Humble. Humble. Humble. Humble. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Is that what you do?
Em Schulz: Un, no. I just... I don't know. I'm feeling... I don't know, feeling silly. Did you enjoy that, or? I don't wanna know. Don't tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay. So what are you doing later? [laughter] What's the rest of your day look like?
Christine Schiefer: So my sister-in-law's here actually downstairs, so I gotta go see her. Well, my, my brother-in-law's partner, Emily is here. So, umm, and she's in town. She's from Cincinnati, but she's in town for her cousin's wedding, so she stopped by to see Leona. Probably not me, but I'm gonna...
Em Schulz: And Blaise's face.
Christine Schiefer: And Blaise... I literally told her, wait till you see Blaise's face. She's like, why? And I was like, you'll see.
Em Schulz: I'm excited to see Blaise's face. I.
Christine Schiefer: He's not going...
Em Schulz: I feel... I, I... With love, I need to see how wild his face looks.
Christine Schiefer: It's actually like so much... Uh, it's not as scary looking as I thought. Like I thought it would look way worse. It's just like almost like this just dark patch where you could...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just knowing it's broken really freaks me out, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. It freaks me out. Especially the eating part 'cause I feel like my jawbone...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Like I just think of all of that moving around, or like rolling over on your side when you're sleeping. Oh, poor Blaise.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. That's why when he wears that sleep mask, I'm like, "Please be fucking careful."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, that poor man.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I'm gonna go do that. Are you up to anything? I think we've been productive enough, quite frankly.
Em Schulz: No, I am...
Christine Schiefer: I give you permission...
Em Schulz: Okay, let's stop.
Christine Schiefer: And me permission to do nothing else today besides chill.
Em Schulz: Yay. If you would like, you can hop over to Patreon and hear us babble on even longer. If you would like to read a book in September, one is coming out called 'A Haunted Road Atlas, Next Stop.'
Christine Schiefer: We're doing a Talk Shop Live on the 22nd of... Or of June, not January.
Em Schulz: And if you wanna come see us on tour, you can too. We've got tickets. So, uh, thank you everyone. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
