[intro music]
Em Schulz: Hello my fruity little mango.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: As I eat fruity little mangoes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I was like, wow. That brain of yours is miraculous.
Em Schulz: No. Every time I eat fruit and a fruit is nearby I do have to say something about it though. So, and you're one of them. So.
Christine Schiefer: Here I am.
Em Schulz: Uh, I went to Erewhon recently.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Is this a standup bit? I don't think I have time or energy for this.
Em Schulz: Wow. Sounds like you don't wanna hear my story.
Christine Schiefer: What's the deal with Erewhon?
Em Schulz: Sounds like you don't wanna hear my story.
Christine Schiefer: I don't, but go ahead. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, okay. I'll tell you later, when you're in a better, a mood, uh, it's a good one, you're really missing out.
Christine Schiefer: I'd rather everyone suffer with me, so I guess tell it now.
Em Schulz: I just wanted to say that I've been to Erewhon recently and I...
Christine Schiefer: That was your story.
Em Schulz: Yeah that I got a mango.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Yeah, you were right. That was a killer. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I never said there was gonna be a lead up. You, you're the one who made it sound like I was about to do some routine. You said you are the one that let everyone down my friend. I just wanted to say I got my mango from Erewhon but yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You're right. I should have lowered the bar for your storytelling. Um, anyway, yes, Em went to Erewhon I saw it on your basic bitch stories on Instagram, which I love.
Em Schulz: I love Basic Bitch Day.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And like, Erewhon, if you're not familiar, is an LA grocer, uh high end luxury items. They're very fucking expensive. I think I bought cashews there 'cause I like needed cashews for something. And they were like $60 [laughter] I was like, hell no. Um.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The, the smoothies there are, they start at like 25 each. Like it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. But we were having a basic bitch day. We look, there's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you gotta... There's no choice.
Em Schulz: There's...
Christine Schiefer: There's no...
Em Schulz: You gotta have a treat yourself day every now and Then.
Christine Schiefer: See, that could have been the story. A $25 smoothie that's crazy. But...
Em Schulz: I was not going to say something like that after you started with criticizing my story. I was not gonna be like, and then I spent $50 on smoothies, because that would've just been worse.
Christine Schiefer: All I said was it sounded like a standup bit when you said, I went to Erewhon recently as the opening line of our podcast. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, uh, I, we hadn't had a Basic Bitch day in a while, so I decided that was gonna...
Christine Schiefer: I was very into that. I, I feel like if I do that here, all there is is like Chipotle, the mall. Actually, those are both pretty fun. I could do that.
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: It won't be quite Erewhon level, but...
Em Schulz: Uh, Chipotle and the mall are, are, um, two regular of things that I do. But on Basic Bitch Day, it's a...
Christine Schiefer: Elevated.
Em Schulz: It's a, a yes day for myself because usually I don't step foot in an Erewhon. And, uh, but they're, uh, on Basic Bitch Day. Who am I to say no to me?
Christine Schiefer: No rules.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Treat yourself.
Em Schulz: How, what have you done recently? Making a standup routine?
Christine Schiefer: Nothing even remotely is interesting. Um...
Em Schulz: What did you do? Um, that's not true. Yesterday we FaceTimed and I saw that you just...
Christine Schiefer: What about this? What about this?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I saw a, a baseball flying through the air.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait, hold on. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It sounds hysterical.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It is. Let me start over. Hold on. Let me think about how it goes.
Em Schulz: Girl... Wait, are you telling someone else's joke? Is that what's happening? Man, I don't feel so bad about my story anymore. At least mine was original.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I saw what I, wait, hold on. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. There once was a man from Peru start there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I, I couldn't tell what kind of ball was flying through the air and then it hit me. [laughter] You did not. How do you know which one's crickets. How do you even remember?
Em Schulz: It's the one I press the most on this show.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] That's so cruel. Oh, cruel and unusual. Anyway, um, welcome to our comedy podcast. It's very funny.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I will say the real comedy was yesterday when we were FaceTiming and I kept trying to talk to Leona and she, her, she was just so busy, absolutely facing her bottle. And it looked just like mommy who was, um...
Christine Schiefer: Aw. She does not drink out of a bottle. Does she? What...
Em Schulz: What was she drinking out of yesterday?
Christine Schiefer: I'm just trying to remember. Oh, just her water cup. Yeah. Okay. I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh. I couldn't tell. It was, it was directly in the air. [laughter] It was upside down and going down.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She's facing that water. Um, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: She's staying hydrated and, uh...
Christine Schiefer: She is. I'm proud of her for that.
Em Schulz: She also needs to stay hydrated because the only other thing she was eating was like a, a massive chocolate bunny. So she was having a great day yesterday.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah she... What happened was, Em got on the phone and I was distracted and Leona knows the moment I'm distracted, she can kind of, you know, figure out some...
Em Schulz: Get away with it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so she walks back in, I'm like cooking her dinner actively. She walks in with this fucking chocolate bunny. I'm like, where did you A get that? B it's July C like, how did you even reach it? And D absolutely not. And then a giant bite came off the bunny. So, um.
Em Schulz: And then, and then counted every single chocolate egg that came outta your cabinet on top of the chocolate bunny. And there was like a, a baker's dozen of chocolate eggs.
Christine Schiefer: Sure was. Uh, sure was. I did have to swiftly, promptly. Um.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Is there a tactic with a little kid to, to like get those, I mean, when there's 13, I guess you could almost hide nine or four of them and leave nine right away. 'cause they can't tell a difference, right? Like, how do you slowly like, gradually remove all of them so she doesn't get sad that she's not eating them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I mean, they're like a gold, they're like a goldfish. Like they turn around that you just sweep 'em away. Typically, she's not gonna be like, I mean, when it's chocolate, she might remember, but typically it's like the next thing showed up. Like Pete the cat is suddenly on TV and that's, that matters more.
Em Schulz: Mm. Uh-huh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And as I was making noodles and all of a sudden she's like, I want noodles. And I'm like, okay. And so she had no interest anymore in the chocolate bunny. So it's like.
Em Schulz: I see.
Christine Schiefer: You know, you're just playing kind of a, a loser's game all the time. Uh.
Em Schulz: Now that's funny.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter], It's not really, but it, it might be for you. It's not for me. But, um, you know what? That's okay. Uh...
Em Schulz: I feel like I do the same thing with Allison with salt and vinegar chips, where like, if I just slowly remove, if I get them away one by one, she almost thinks she ate all of them. So.
Christine Schiefer: She'll never notice.
Em Schulz: She'll never notice until five minutes later when she walks back to the pantry and sees it again but...
Christine Schiefer: And goes, wait a minute.
Em Schulz: Hang on. I remember...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not two [laughter] I know what I was eating.
Em Schulz: Well, I... She got distracted with Bridgerton or something. That's usually.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, put a show on.
Em Schulz: It's like Pete the cat. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There you go Bridgeton. It's easy enough. It's honestly, we're all just giant toddlers stumbling around.
Em Schulz: Isn't it funny? A lot of times if I'm confused about something, I just go, I, I really, I like, there's the sound that people use on TikTok, but it's true. Like, I'm just a baby. Like, I don't really know. Like I'm...
Christine Schiefer: I don't understand why you expect more of me than what you would expect of a 2-year-old.
Em Schulz: I'm new here. Like I just got here. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't even know where I am. So if someone could help me.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] But how would I trust anyone else? 'cause they're also new here so...
Christine Schiefer: Great point. We're all fucked.
Em Schulz: Is there a reason why you drink and whether or not there's an answer to that? What do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: Um hmm.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I forgot my water and all my other...
Em Schulz: Bubble there. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Beverage. Sorry. That was horrible. Jack, can you put like a, like a bleep that sound out. I just made a slurp noise and it feels like that will be really unpleasant for a lot of people. So if we could just bleep that out like a curse word. That would be.
Em Schulz: I thought it was quite nice.
Christine Schiefer: Fantastic. Uh, maybe that'll be like Patreon only content, you know, mouth faces.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Now we're getting into OnlyFans territory. If you wanna hear Christine slurping. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Terrible.
Em Schulz: Please pay behind the wall.
Christine Schiefer: It's just Em it's just Em. That's the only person [laughter] Um.
Em Schulz: It's just that and your toes, man. I don't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What can, ew, oh like, like holding toes together.
Em Schulz: People have been sending us, I don't know, like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't like see why? No they don't.
Em Schulz: People've been sending me videos of their, of them holding toes now...
Christine Schiefer: Your socks.
Em Schulz: I think to just get in on the joke, but, um, I appreciate that someone will do it, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Well, I don't, so anyway, why do you drink?
Em Schulz: Besides the toe thing, um.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know. I feel like we've given 75 reasons already. If so, don't feel pressured, but.
Em Schulz: Well, I feel a little stressed 'cause we're, I'm, we're trying to design this stupid house that we paid for and uh...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Man, I hate that. I always thought I was prepared after the years of Sims, but, uh, I actually don't know what I'm doing and...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't it so frustrating when you're like, well, shit, this isn't as drag and drop as I'd hoped.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It really makes me feel truly like, I'm just a baby. I just got here. I dunno what I'm doing. And I'm like, how? Why did someone let me buy a house?
Christine Schiefer: Who let you do that? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, but um, yeah, I, and also between the two of us, uh, Allison is not, uh, this is not like a, a jab at her. Just it is open public knowledge that she is not, uh, the conceptualizer of the two of us. And when it comes to designing, she gets frustrated very easily. Uh, even if it were just like redoing a closet, she can't in like see things unless it's like physically in front of her.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and so, uh, with love, she is not much help because she keeps getting frustrated. But then I'm getting frustrated because I don't know, like what, there's just so many things that I feel like that I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: That must be tough for her. Coming from a family of architects to not conceptualize.
Em Schulz: It's like, and she's the baby of the family. I think all the skill was just kind of slurped out, if you know what I mean. And then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jack.
Em Schulz: And then, and by the time she was born, there was no architect skill left. It had already gone to everybody else. You know.
Christine Schiefer: That is pretty sensible to me. That sounds like how it works.
Em Schulz: That is what I think the science does. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I mean, luckily she's got so many people in her corner that can do it for her and like...
Christine Schiefer: See that's...
Em Schulz: Also by proxy do it for me. So that's been very nice. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe she's pretending, she's like, help me. I don't know how.
Em Schulz: Maybe because there's so many architects since she was the baby, she didn't even need to like, develop the skill.
Christine Schiefer: Why would she have to learn? Yeah why like...
Em Schulz: They were just like, I got it yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: So, um, what I've been doing is a lot of arts and crafts to, I've been building dioramas so that way she can see the options.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, which has been helpful, but also very time consuming. 'cause I'm making dioramas while also trying to design a house.
Christine Schiefer: Feel like you can do that digitally, but okay.
Em Schulz: Probably, but guess what? I'm new to this. I'm just a little guy I don't really know. So.
Christine Schiefer: So you can make a, a diorama. Wow.
Em Schulz: That's one thing I know how to do. I don't, that's, uh, I don't know. My, my prop skills have been coming out, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Fair point.
Em Schulz: But, uh, anyway, so just designing a house is, is very time consuming. And by the time this comes out, I'm sure I will have found a digital version of this. So, um, I just wanna warn everyone before I get the same link a bunch of times since you've...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say you're gonna get a million texts. I mean, you can literally just Google like home design software and it'll be like a trillion.
Em Schulz: I know, but a lot of them had like a, like the free trial thing and I always forget to cancel the free trial, so I don't wanna get looped into something. So I, anyway, I was just being, uh, hardheaded I guess, about accessing that. But that's why I drink because designing things is, is not the Sims. Go figure.
Christine Schiefer: Sucks.
Em Schulz: And I'm drinking an LD. And, uh, I was ready. I've been waiting to crack her for you.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: If you wanna do the countdown.
Christine Schiefer: 3, 2, 1.
Em Schulz: Oh, nice.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was a good one. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, nice.
Christine Schiefer: That's a good one.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And now we can officially start our podcast woo-hoo.
Christine Schiefer: Finally.
Em Schulz: I have, uh, I hope you're in high spirits because I've got you in a UFO story today. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Take me higher.
Em Schulz: Is that what you, would you sing like Creed as you were being beamed up? Can you take me higher?
Christine Schiefer: I think I would sing Creed under any, any and most circumstances upon which I was woken up in the middle of the night. It doesn't really matter what.
Em Schulz: You and every other millennial's father would sing Creed at any given opportunity. I think so.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. It's just the first thing that comes to mind.
Em Schulz: Is that Creed.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In my head it gives Creed energy if it's not Creed but...
Christine Schiefer: Can you take... I mean, I think it's, can you take. Yeah it's Creed.
Em Schulz: If it's not...
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: It's the only song that wasn't on the Creed discography that my father listened to. So, um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That is by Creed for sure. For sure.
Em Schulz: Okay, great.
Christine Schiefer: For sure, for sure.
Em Schulz: Um. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Don't ever doubt yourself again Em.
Em Schulz: Girl. Every day's new adventure. I can't make promises, but, uh, thank you for the motivation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're so welcome.
Em Schulz: This is the story of the Allagash Four.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." What's that?
Em Schulz: It's a team name like the Avengers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, except everyone gets abducted.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So there are four people here, ironically, two of them have the same name, and two of them are twins. So that might be tricky but...
Christine Schiefer: And Em I'm assuming two of them that are named the same are not the twins. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right. That's where it gets extra tricky. They've all got a little, they've all got a little too much in common, but in different ways.
Christine Schiefer: That would be really ideal for me if it was just twins, John and John. So you just don't worry about the...
Em Schulz: Well, it's Jim and Jack.
Christine Schiefer: I was close enough. Jim and Jack are the twins. Are you serious?
Em Schulz: Are the twins. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: And then the other two people are both Jack and Charles. Both Charles [laughter] Both Charles but...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait. Oh, oh, neither twin has the same name. I thought one of the twins was gonna be overlapping another's...
Em Schulz: No there's two twins who have similar twin names.
Christine Schiefer: Jim and Jack.
Em Schulz: And then there's also two people both named Charles.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I guess I can handle that. Charles, Charles, Jim, and Jack.
Em Schulz: Uh, we're gonna go with Charlie and Chuck.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Then, uh, re-rewind Charles, Chuck, Jim, and Jack.
Em Schulz: Just so we can keep our Charles's straight.
Christine Schiefer: I guess we've gotta.
Em Schulz: Um, and to make it just a little funny, because apparently I'm like a middle school boy on a playground, Jack and Jim's last name is Wiener. So that, um, anytime I see that...
Christine Schiefer: So, I mean...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It hasn't, uh, it won't ever fully leave me. If someone's last name is Wiener, part of me goes, hoohoo. And then I never think about it again. But in the moment I go Wiener.
Christine Schiefer: I think about it. Because remember that guy who sent a dick pic and then his last name is Wiener. And I was like, wow, you really just walked right into that one.
Em Schulz: It was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Christine Schiefer: It sure was. So, okay, so the Wiener twins and [laughter], the two Charles and the...
Em Schulz: The two Charles.
Christine Schiefer: Charles twins, yeah. Okay, got it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, So, uh, there's Jim, Jack, Charlie, and Chuck. And, uh, this, they were all born in the early '50s, late '40s. Uh, and they meet in 1976 in Massachusetts when they all at some point go to college there. And they kind of overlap, um, after college. So they're all living in Massachusetts, or Jim and Jack are living in Massachusetts. One of the Charles is living in Massachusetts. Another one moves to Vermont, but still, I guess visits often to see his friends that he made while he lived in Massachusetts. So one of them is in Vermont. But let's, it's a New England story. Um, and basically Chuck, he goes to the Allagash Wilderness Waterway. He is very into camping. He's very into nature.
Christine Schiefer: Now...
Em Schulz: And the Alla... Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Just for clarity, is Chuck the one who lives in M-Massachusetts or Vermont?
Em Schulz: Great question. Chuck is the Vermont man.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So he's visiting and he goes to this Allagash?
Em Schulz: Yeah, he goes, he goes... So the Allagash waterway is in Maine, so he...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Every, sorry. I I did not make that clear. Every, it's like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What's happening?
Em Schulz: It's a whole road trip, um, buy our book. So in...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're like, not if it's like this. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It might be. I can't honestly...
Christine Schiefer: It might be.
Em Schulz: So they're all from Massachusetts. Homeboy moves to Vermont, uh, and he does a trip to Maine so.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Got it.
Em Schulz: And, uh, the Allagash Wilderness Waterway is 92 miles long. It goes through Northern Maine. It's actually, uh, it also is one of the ends of the Appalachian Trail.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Or it, uh, it's in the same state park where the Appalach-Appalachian trail either begins or ends, which depending on what direction you're coming from. Um, but so he goes there, he has a great time. He comes back to Massachusetts, or I don't know what you do in 1976, but the equivalent of texts his friends in Massachusetts sends a fax, I guess. [laughter] And he says...
Christine Schiefer: He faxes his friends. Yep.
Em Schulz: And he says "this Allagash uh, Wilderness Waterway is the best place I ever did go. We must return all of us together."
Christine Schiefer: Stop. Period. Stop. Sorry, I'm trying to do like telegram. How do you do telegram?
Em Schulz: Oh.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: That's a type. That's a typewriter.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh. [laughter]
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: No, that's, that's a fax. I'm talking about a telegram where you go stop.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I could do beep beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. That's Morse code.
Christine Schiefer: I guess what, I guess you're misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is that I was already doing the sound. I don't know why you keep doing new ones.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Because you're right. I was just having fun.
Christine Schiefer: I'm saying like, I feel like you took it as me yelling stop at you. I wasn't yelling stop at you. I was saying like, like, uh, Allagash Four stop. Excellent place. Stop. You know how they would send it and they write, stop.
Em Schulz: You know you are talking to someone who has never written a telegram. So I just think, I don't know what it looks like. Um.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't think anyone knows what it looks like. But, but you've never heard that stop.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what?
Em Schulz: I've heard the word stop. [laughter] Um, but I dunno what you're talking about. What is like, like, it's like the word stop is written on the telegram, so they know that that's the end of the sentence.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like you say stop. And that's like the period or whatever.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Okay now I'm worried.
Em Schulz: I did not know that. No, no. You, you're teaching I really didn't know.
Christine Schiefer: Well, now I'm worried. I'm just screwing it all up. But I thought that's what you do.
Em Schulz: No I think you're right. Okay. So here's the thing. I actually have sent a telegram, but it was, so...
Christine Schiefer: What? Okay, so you're the only fucking person in the world who sent a telegram and you made a dumb comment about, well, sorry, I've never sent a telegram. It's like...
Em Schulz: No no, because it...
Christine Schiefer: You're the only one who has.
Em Schulz: No, 'cause I sent a telegram. It was to my ex. It was actually ironically the very last message I've ever sent her.
Christine Schiefer: Is that a Taylor Swift song telegram to my ex. No, that sounds like a fucking, uh, pop UK pop band telegram to my ex.
Em Schulz: I, I it was a, uh, like a digital company where they were like, you send send an old school telegram. And so all I did was like, send like an email and then they converted it and everything and sent like a proper telegram. Allegedly. I never heard about it. Because by the time it got to her, we broke up.
Christine Schiefer: It's probably not there yet. It's probably still in your work. [laughter] It's probably like in the telegram wires like slow. Well, 'cause I assume there's, it's the only telegram. So it's probably just slowly like, meandering across the country.
Em Schulz: You know what? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then it'll show up. It should be like, what's this? And it'll just say, stop. And you'll be like...
Em Schulz: Well by now she is, um, married with a kid. So, so it's really...
Christine Schiefer: It's even more exiting, yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: Taking its sweet time to, to get to her. Whoops. Um, but okay. I, now that you're saying it, it's kind of, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I just figured it out. I mean, I didn't figure it out. And NBC News told me, but apparently people would save money by using the word stop instead of periods to end sentences because punctuation cost extra. But a four character word was free.
Em Schulz: Now this is the fun fact I wanted. Thank you for...
Christine Schiefer: That is it.
Em Schulz: Thank you for setting this up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank God I googled that. I did. I... That's such a fun fact.
Em Schulz: Also. Hmm. Imagine texting and like the punctuation is extra is like charges extra.
Christine Schiefer: Charges...
Em Schulz: I would be like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, it used to when we were in middle school and then our parents would get like a huge crazy bill, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I, I feel like the, the stop versus the period is the equivalent of us saying text me after 9:00. But not before.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. TTYL at 9:00. That was our version of stop. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, yes. Thank you for, uh, the funducation because.
Christine Schiefer: You're so welcome. I didn't do it on purpose, but I'm glad we're here.
Em Schulz: Well, anyway, he sends a telegram, uh, probably using the same service I did.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I guess. And, uh, he, he says, "this Allagash situation is just so fun. We have to come back together. Uh, all as friends." Is that my phone?
Christine Schiefer: I'm a, I'm so scared What's happening over there?
Em Schulz: My alarm is going off.
Christine Schiefer: You know, everybody. 'cause that's also my alarm. I feel like everybody in the listening just went "gasp" thinking.
Em Schulz: You know what's weird is that's not even the alarm that I usually do. It's the back to the future sound or the Avengers so...
Christine Schiefer: That's my alarm. So I don't know how you got that on your phone.
Em Schulz: I've never heard that alarm go off on my phone. And I don't know why an alarm would go off right now.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." What does it mean? It's...
Em Schulz: I hate that.
Christine Schiefer: It's 11:30.
Em Schulz: Is that, did the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Did the telegram finally go through?
Christine Schiefer: We were supposed to record an hour later than we are. So you probably set one to wake up for the next time.
Em Schulz: Oh. Well she's off now.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Good morning.
Em Schulz: Um. [laughter], Yoo-hoo okay. So they all agree they're gonna go actually, fun fact, apparently he only said that to the twins and then said, "actually know what? We need a fourth to help carry the canoe so Charlie can come to."
Christine Schiefer: Someone to carry the shit. Yes. Charles, I guess like he gets, he can, he can, uh, prove himself if he wants.
Em Schulz: So their plan was to go up to the big mountain there and which apparently is a mile high. I don't know in the world of, um, mountains, if that's tall or not. To me, it sounds like a feat. Um, but they were like, "we're gonna go climb this mountain and then we're gonna spend the rest of the day."
Christine Schiefer: It actually sounds like 5,000 feet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Nailed it.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, 5,280 feet.
Em Schulz: 280 feet. Yeah. Uh-huh. Um, I don't to... That sounds like 5,280 steps.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which uphill.
Christine Schiefer: Uphill.
Em Schulz: Which I don't really wanna do.
Christine Schiefer: Both ways. No, thank you.
Em Schulz: So to me that's a, that's a flat no.
Christine Schiefer: It's a pass. That's actually a very steep no.
Em Schulz: It's a, it's a free stop if you will.
Christine Schiefer: A free stop.
Em Schulz: As if we're, as if we're a telegram.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, we're gonna climb up this mountain and if that wasn't enough for everybody, we're going to also go canoeing that day because apparently the Allagash area is a huge canoe port.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And then we're gonna keep staying outside for like another 10 days.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: That was that, that, see that if I got that telegram, I wouldn't even send a telegram back. I, I'd rip that one up. And say that's...
Christine Schiefer: I would just send the word stop over and over because apparently it's free [laughter] and they're just like, they'll send this to them. They'll get it, they'll know what it means.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Um, they...
Christine Schiefer: And it would actually just be a bunch of ellipses, like dot dot dot dot, you know, like.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. You know what's so funny is like, that feels like that had to be a technique people actually use is like, oh, here's a free telegram I can send people. And it was how you like, I don't know, broke up with people or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean you did that. You just said.
Em Schulz: That feels like, well actually it was the last nice letter I ever sent to her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. No wonder you never heard about it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. And then I sent, um, a not so nice letter and that is...
Christine Schiefer: Why are you always sending the letters you weirdo?
Em Schulz: I was, I needed... Well, well that's a long story.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I already know it and I just keep prodding...
Em Schulz: But there was a reason for it.
Christine Schiefer: I just keep prodding you. Like really? Why? Like I was there. I know [laughter] I was I was your...
Em Schulz: Yeah. If anyone wants to know my, my last relationship, I, it ended with a Dear John letter.
Christine Schiefer: Or did it because we never know if it arrived because.
Em Schulz: For all I know I'm still dating her. I dunno.
Christine Schiefer: It's in the telegram. Uh, well then she's cheating on you with this husband, with this partner or children.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Actually she, I owe her another letter. Hang on, I gotta...
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna get to writing. [chuckle] Um, okay. So, uh, they say, "Charlie, you can come too, because we're gonna go canoeing. We need someone to carry a part of the canoe."
Christine Schiefer: Nice.
Em Schulz: So all four of them go, somehow he has, he finds three people in a circle that all wanna do a, a week and a half long trip canoeing.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And, um, so they get there, they climb the mountain somehow that's like the best thing to happen to them during this whole trip. Uh, then they start canoeing. And the first night, 'cause I guess since, I mean, they were really canoeing. They were going from like spot to spot to spot. They were, and then camping before they kept canoeing the next day. I can't imagine how that's fun.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like my nightmare.
Em Schulz: But okay. So, uh, imagine on like day eight and your arm cramps and you can't, like how do you, now you're stranded.
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, you got Charles, Chuck, Chucky boy.
Em Schulz: Oh, right.
Christine Schiefer: He's the brawn.
Em Schulz: He got the muscle.
Christine Schiefer: He's the brawn. He's there for this exact reason. So I can lounge with my sunglasses, get a little tan. He can canoe me down the river.
Em Schulz: You're like, oh, my arms they hurt so much.
Christine Schiefer: Like, ow. That is ow. I'm just, have really weak tendons.
Em Schulz: I would intentionally run into the, like, the oars so that way I had an injury and I couldn't paddle anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Run into the... You would get out of the boat into the water and run into the oar. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, if I were sitting in the back part, I would pretend that one of their paddles hit me.
Christine Schiefer: You just hit yourself.
Em Schulz: And I go, oh no.
Christine Schiefer: I think you could just pretend to injure yourself, but I would like to see you get hit by an oar intentionally.
Em Schulz: If it, if it kept me from having to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess if it...
Em Schulz: Canoe for two more days, I would absolutely do it.
Christine Schiefer: Kept the story believable. Yeah. Some physical comedy might be required.
Em Schulz: Uh, so they get to their first spot after canoeing and they set up a fire and at one point they look up at the sky and they see this giant orb of fire hovering over the trees.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: And Jim clearly took a pottery class in college because his quote describing this was, "it resembles the quality of light you see in a pottery kiln at Cone 10, around 2,350 degrees Fahrenheit." Kind of like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Weirdo. Uh, [laughter] I feel like...
Em Schulz: You're someone's stepdad immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Immediately. I feel like you are so fucking right about they went to college and like, it's the '70s. Of course they took a fucking pottery class. Like that's...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: That fits so well.
Em Schulz: They, uh, yeah, they apparently that was his first way to describe it. I, I think the point he was trying to get to was like, it looks as like as white hot as something in a pottery kiln, but he didn't have to go into like the degrees.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And what level, and okay...
Christine Schiefer: It just feels a little much. But all right. I get it. I guess you gotta put that liberal arts degree to use, you know.
Em Schulz: You know how there's like, there's always one person who's like really, really into like their elective class. I think he's just trying to force...
Christine Schiefer: He wants it...
Em Schulz: That he's...
Christine Schiefer: To work.
Em Schulz: He's trying to prove that he is passionate about this. Um, so anyway, he loves, he loves pottery, I guess. And he said it resembles something at Cone 10. And the ball of fire is now levitating in, in the sky from the trees. Uh, and the fire, which is so weird. He says that he watched the fire slowly like extinguished from the outside in. So he watched it kind of, uh, like the fire shrink away.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: So that's a cone zero. Last I checked [laughter], but.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, Em whoo.
Em Schulz: And they, so they saw this thing, they, they saw it kind of fizzle out in the sky and they went, "that's crazy". And then they just kept canoeing for the next few days.
Christine Schiefer: What did they say in the '70s? For, for cra... Like, they'd be like.
Em Schulz: Far out.
Christine Schiefer: That's far out. [laughter] Oh, that's radical.
Em Schulz: Uh. Radical. I feel like was '80s, but groovy was very '70s.
Christine Schiefer: Groovy is good. That's groovy. Okay.
Em Schulz: Honestly, if someone ever said anything I was wearing was groovy, I would, I think I would get butterflies I...
Christine Schiefer: Do you have any idea what you're saying? When my in high school...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: We always wore uniforms. I wore pink pants one day and a boy told the boy I had a crush on told me my pants were groovy and we started dating the next day. It's not even a joke.
Em Schulz: So you were dating a time traveler?
Christine Schiefer: No, just a, just a not nice guy, but, um.
Em Schulz: Oh, he was like being mean.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. He was just not a nice guy in general, but he said...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: My pants were groovy and it worked. I was like, okay, we're dating now.
Em Schulz: I would've literally giggled and kicked my feet in the air. I would've been so excited.
Christine Schiefer: I like, it was like the most ridiculous thing. Or maybe he is. You know what he said, they're out of this world. That's what he said. That's what it was. Not groovy. Although I feel like he used that word a lot too. Yeah. He said that your pants are out of this world. And like, it was an out of uniform day. So it's like very rare that I even got to wear cool colored pants. So that was like really big moment for me.
Em Schulz: Um, similar to out of this world. One time I got told that something I was wearing was interstellar.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fine. You just have to one up me. I get it.
Em Schulz: I, no, I'm saying I think that was my out of this world moment because, and that's probably why it tickles me so much because I remember how interstellar made me feel.
Christine Schiefer: It really is... If you have a special word as a compliment, like it takes it, it elevates it to the next level. Try it out. Folks say something like, wow, you look resplendent today. You know?
Em Schulz: Oh, oh my oh my.
Christine Schiefer: But it's important you don't say with any hint of irony, otherwise they will think you're mocking them.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But you also have to be prepared to have that conversation. 'cause you won't know what to say. So you'll go, "oh, groovy. Are we trying like, new words now?" Like say like, someone's gonna say something about the word being used and it's probably gonna be you.
Christine Schiefer: And then you can say, "well you should listen to this podcast." And then we get more listeners. It's a win-win, win, win, win.
Em Schulz: Oh great, great, great. Great, great, great. Great. You and your marketing. I love that. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So good at it.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So, uh, yeah. So two more nights pass by after they've seen this fireball in the sky, they don't even mention it. Like, they just think like, "oh, remember that really groovy fucking interstellar thing that happened in the sky."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Literally interstellar thing. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Out of this world.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, they're both well [laughter] no wonder I thought I was like, oh, I've, someone said that to me. No, I was thinking groovy and alien. And then the Venn diagram in the middle is interstellar. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I, yeah, we were making fun of them, but now I can't tell if they would've said that because it was the '70s or, because this is alien thing.
Christine Schiefer: Aliens, right? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, so two nights later they're canoeing and I don't know if they're just bad at planning or what, but apparently they now have no more food. Oh. Like, and they've only been canoeing for like two days.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." What the fuck? Just because you carry the most Chuck doesn't mean you get the most food God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. He was probably like doing the, the chips and the, the cookie chuckle thing.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." One at a time.
Em Schulz: One at a time. No one notices if I'm only eating one at a time. So he, uh, the, the four of them, maybe they still had food, but they were like rationing it. And so for that night, they didn't have any more food, but they didn't like have a starvation situation happen. So I think they were just rationing.
Christine Schiefer: There's no Donner party. Okay, good.
Em Schulz: But they decided, oh, for food tonight, since we don't have any left for dinner, let's go night fishing. And...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: They, they were like, let's go on another adventure's.
Christine Schiefer: Let's go night hunting while we're at it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Go catch yourself some dinner.
Em Schulz: It was so dark that they decided they were going to set up a fire at their campsite. So that way when they were out in the water, they could keep orienting themselves about where shore was.
Christine Schiefer: That's smart.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think that that was smart. Umm, and that way they had something to follow back when they got back and they set this like huge raging roaring fire. That way if they were out for a while, the fire would still be going when they came back to shore.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Well, they all get in one canoe together, which had to be like crammed like sardines. The...
Christine Schiefer: Well, just think about the topsy-turviness.
Em Schulz: You have to trust each other so much that not one of you is gonna think it's funny to rock the boat and everyone is...
Christine Schiefer: Em would be like, I'm gonna hit myself with an oar and lean over the edge and probably pull everybody down.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They wouldn't, I wouldn't have been invited to begin with. So.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like, "I'm staying at camp and when you get back, there may or may not be any hot dogs left in the cooler."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] We might also have no food tomorrow.
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: I don't know what to tell you. So they all get in their canoe, they all head towards this cove. And again, it's like pretty dark out. Like they are have, like, that also scares me that you don't even know what you're...
Christine Schiefer: This seems like a terrible idea. Like this...
Em Schulz: Paddling towards...
Christine Schiefer: Like destined for, for a disaster.
Em Schulz: Well, once inconveniently far enough from shore, that is when they all start sensing that they are being watched.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And they, uh, Chuck looks behind them and he sees another glowing orb hovering in the sky and the orb is pulsating, changing colors. Apparently it goes from red to green to white. And it was weirdly, it looked like it was filled with fluid because it was kind of like shaking. Like it had a...
Christine Schiefer: Like like sloshing.
Em Schulz: It it had like, like just like it was moving as if there was something like an energy inside of it.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. Okay.
Em Schulz: He noticed that the orb moved up and down then left to right, which if you imagine it's kind of like, it was oscillating.
Christine Schiefer: It was hovering sort of, okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: And apparently his first response was to shout, "that's a hell of a case of swamp gas." [laughter] And I don't know, totally what he means. More '70s lingo. I don't know. I guess.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think what he means is like, 'cause everyone says, oh, aliens are just swa... Any UFO settings are just swamp gas. So he's probably being like, sarcastically like, well, if you're right, that's one hell of a swamp gas.
Em Schulz: Well, he said that, which made everybody else turn around and they went, "oh shit. Look at this orb."
Christine Schiefer: And they said, "why would you say it that way? Why wouldn't you just say, guys, what the fuck is that?" But, okay.
Em Schulz: So, so Jim, uh, then is the next to comment on this, and he said that the orb was as big as a house.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Which I feel like we buried the lead there. Nobody said that before now. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: No. I don't care how like groovy it is. Just tell me what it looks like.
Em Schulz: Yeah. How big is, is it, how intimidating is this thing.
Christine Schiefer: House sized.
Em Schulz: Apparently it's as big as a house. It made no sound.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And it had, uh, I guess also another way to describe this oscillating movement. He said that it had a roiling effect. Like a mini sun.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Roiling.
Em Schulz: Like if you look, you know, if you look at the sun, like it's kind of moving around.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I take it back. That's a really good description. Roiling.
Em Schulz: That's a beautiful word [0:35:00.0] ____.
Christine Schiefer: That is, I feel like some of them took a... Their... All their degrees are showing like their liberal arts degrees, pottery, English poetry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Apparently this thing now starts moving closer to them and he thought it glowed. Oh. Oh yeah. I said this thing already, but he said it glowed similar, uh, to something in a kiln. And he had said that about the first orb.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So when he thought that about the second orb, he realized that they might be connected. And this is the same orb from two nights ago.
Christine Schiefer: He's only now realizing that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: He's... [0:35:30.7] ____.
Christine Schiefer: It's another flying thing. And it does remind me of the same class I took in college. So maybe they're connected. Yeah. They're flying.
Em Schulz: Cone 10 strikes again.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] That does sound like a movie poster from like the '40s. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, he was like, "wait a minute. I think this thing has been following us the entire time."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And interestingly, he did not see it changing color. He only saw it as white the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Whereas some people saw it as changing color, but.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he's colorblind. I mean, like a lot of men.
Em Schulz: Oh, maybe.
Christine Schiefer: There's like a high percentage. I feel like out of four, odds are one of them might be, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Umm I know that colorblindness doesn't necessarily work like that, but I don't know. I mean, could be, uh, I was also gonna ask, which you probably don't know, like, I don't know if this was reported on, but like, because the, the roiling orb, uh, made no noise. I was curious if that thing happened that people talk about, which scares me so much of like, all the crickets went quiet. The birds stopped. Do you know if that happened?
Em Schulz: Mm. I don't think they, I, I didn't see anything about that, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Christine Schiefer: That's like such a creepy thing when people describe like, oh, suddenly the whole forest went like completely silent. I'm like that's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Nothing good is happening.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Chill, chilling. And I wonder if maybe they didn't notice if things were getting quiet because they were paddling through water.
Christine Schiefer: True, true.
Em Schulz: You know so.
Christine Schiefer: Like maybe they were making noise. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But yeah, the second that you're out in nature and you hear stillness, it's like, oh my god. Like.
Christine Schiefer: So extra creepy.
Em Schulz: And so not knowing what this thing was, I, I don't, I don't know if this was smart or stupid, uh, but I think they were just confused and didn't know what to do. But they saw this big glowing thing and they were like, "let's try to get its attention with the flashlight and see if it moves." was... Which as someone not involved in this, I'm like, why the fuck would you do that?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: But also in the situation, I would be so curious.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, oh, what...
Christine Schiefer: And somebody would say, and I'd go, I mean, I guess I don't have a better idea. Like.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What else are we gonna do? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Besides like duck and cover.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. In the canoe [laughter]
Em Schulz: And so they, they use their flashlights. Oh yeah. Also because they're in the canoe. Imagine how isolating that is. Like you...
Christine Schiefer: That's I mean, to be in the middle of the water stranded.
Em Schulz: You can't even get away.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That you can't go much faster unless you like, start oaring. That's not right. Rowing faster. Uh, yeah. That this all sounds bad. There's no, I feel like there's no correct move. So I'll give them a pass on this one.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. They, umm, so they took their flashlights and they blinked SOS to it.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's not good. I guess that's probably all they know. I mean, that's all I know about S... Uh, about Morse code. But why would you say SOS 'cause then you're basically giving the international sign of like, take us, help us.
Em Schulz: Help. Yeah. Or I wonder if they were doing it. I, I don't know. Maybe they thought it was like some...
Christine Schiefer: Like that ship was SOS.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like, do you need help?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But then like, what are you gonna do? This thing's glowing in the sky.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: And is as big as a house. How are you gonna be helpful?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, knowing myself, that's all I would know of Morse code. I'd be like, I can say SOS and that's it. So maybe like, maybe somebody was like, I don't know any Morse code.
Em Schulz: Which like the aliens were probably like, look at them doing their fun little trick with their lights. We're gonna come get 'em.
Christine Schiefer: Dumb dumb batteries. They think they're like so smart. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Four in one canoe. Oh How tight and cozy?
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's so sad. Oh, look, they brought Chuck to carry all their dry goods. Wow. [laughter]
Em Schulz: [laughter] Uh, so the orb responded by coming closer to them.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Like after they, I mean, if you're gonna flash a light at it, you're...
Christine Schiefer: What do you expect? Yeah.
Em Schulz: And you want its attention. So it, it got closer to them. It headed toward the canoe and it descended from the sky until it was only like a few feet from the water, like they said, like 40 feet from the water.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And Jack even is quoted saying, "I remember looking over my shoulder trying to keep an eye on this object. And it was coming up behind us. It was getting very close. It was almost on top of us at this point. And I remember thinking, we are not going to outrun this thing."
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Uh, Jim, Jack and Charlie start panicking and paddling to the camp. But seeing, but since seeing the orb, but Chuck is in a trance and is unresponsive.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Uh-oh. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And he's just staring at it. Which is crazy because in hindsight it's like, you wonder what someone looks like before they get beamed up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like, what if, like what if psychologically he was already beamed up.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And you're watching someone mid abduction.
Christine Schiefer: Ew, you just freaked me out. Ew. Yeah. Like he's he's like, no longer his consciousness gone. Time to bring the husk...
Em Schulz: [0:40:03.4] ____ behind.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Because like, you do wonder, like in those moments where someone's abducted and they've blacked out, and you wonder like, where are they?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, are they physically gone or are they like frozen in time? And he's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that is so freaky Em.
Em Schulz: And he's just staring as if like he's.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's so freaky.
Em Schulz: As if he's already checked out.
Christine Schiefer: It's like he left before his body left. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Or, or what if only your mind ever leaves and you just freeze for hours? Like, what happens?
Christine Schiefer: Ew, look at my arm. You're freaking me out here with this talk.
Em Schulz: Well, so, uh, Chuck is now in a trance. The other three, I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if I were one of the other three being like, fucking paddle. Like, what is wrong with you.
Christine Schiefer: Chuck, we only brought you for your fucking biceps and now you just crap out on us.
Em Schulz: No, even worse, Chuck is the one who invited them. Charlie's the one who.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, got it.
Em Schulz: So.
Christine Schiefer: I see. I call both Charlies Chuck in my head. [laughter] So I, I, I just assume we know which Chuck I'm talking about telepathically, but yes, I.
Em Schulz: Well imagine.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I meant Ron. But.
Em Schulz: Imagine being like, wait, Ron.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. No, no, no. The the brawn... Chuck, the.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh oh.
Christine Schiefer: Other Chuck. And then we got Charlie, who's, who's, who's invited everybody. And he's the one who's hypnotized.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The one who invited everybody.
Christine Schiefer: Or or tranced okay got it.
Em Schulz: The one who invited everybody. And the one who was paddle or who showed up to, umm, carry the canoe.
Christine Schiefer: Carry the canoe.
Em Schulz: He's, he's fucking carrying the team right now. He's like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. His, his traps are working hard. [laughter] Okay. Gotcha. Okay.
Em Schulz: I would be so mad though if this guy was not helping, and I'd be like, you fucking brought all of us out here, and now you're not even gonna help us get away from this.
Christine Schiefer: And now you're just gonna fucking sit there and let us save your ass. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I wonder if any of them, 'cause I know you and me, if we were ever put in this situation and one of us just fucking froze when we saw a ball of light in the sky, I'd be like, this bitch is abducted. We gotta get out of here. Like, I.
Christine Schiefer: Bye yeah, I'd be like this. They're a goner. Sorry.
Em Schulz: But I, but I wonder what they're thinking. Like, I like, it's, I I don't even know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're probably just pissed. Like, why is he ignoring us?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, snap out of it, you know?
Em Schulz: So Jim, Jack and Charlie are panic paddling, trying to get back to shore, and then all of a sudden they see the orb release a beam of light that points at the water. And, uh, [laughter], basically when the guys are about to get to shore, Jim, Jack and Charlie start trying to, you know, they're scrambling, scrambling, scrambling, but Chuck sits there fixated on the orb. He actually even remembers later, in hindsight, he remembers being mad at his friends for making them try to get away from the orb. Like he remembers being like attached to it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. "Gasp." Ew.
Em Schulz: The rest of the friends recall just about to get to shore, like almost at the end of the finish line, blacking out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. So they, this fucking mean alien made them do all that physical labor to get that close to shore, and then went "Just kidding".
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's really fucked up.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then all of a sudden they, they feel like they lost a moment, and then they were finishing their ride back to shore. And then they remember seeing the orb float up higher and higher and higher. Uh, and it, the, and then the beam of light that was pointing down at them originally somehow rotates to point to the sky, and then it flashes away. Like the, the lights just are, the light's so bright that it cuts through the clouds. And then according to one of them, the sphere began eclipsing on itself, turning into a half circle, and then a crescent until it vanished and totally winked out.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: And then they saw it reappear again just for a minute, but much higher up as if it had teleported hundreds of feet in the air. And then they watch it fly away super fast.
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy. So it basically shields itself from view to teleport almost.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. This is freaking me out. So, wow. So they, wow. Okay. Ooh.
Em Schulz: Jim, Jim says, "I remember thinking I could pick up a stone and bounce it off this thing's side. That's how close it was. And then all of a sudden it just streaked away very, very fast. And within seconds it was just a star. Another light in the sky."
Christine Schiefer: That is creepy, dude.
Em Schulz: Which now makes me think, if I'm looking at a star up in the sky, is that a UFO who like just parked after abducting somebody?
Christine Schiefer: Are you not always thinking that? 'cause I am always thinking that when I look at a star, I'm like, what if that's a UFO?
Em Schulz: Ooh. Also, like, so they are able to essentially just vanish. Do they have to like, be vulnerable and expose themselves to do the beam of light thing? Or can they not just be 40 feet away from you at any given time and you wouldn't know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh, that's a terrible thought. That's a terrible thought. Like they just...
Em Schulz: Yeah. They're closer than the stars.
Christine Schiefer: They're closer than the stars.
Em Schulz: They're just sitting. One's right behind you.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, and they're like cloaking themselves.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But then they choose to reveal themselves. Yeah, you're right. Maybe there's some weird like law.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like physical law that they can't, maybe it's only in our orbit, you know, maybe things don't work the same in other...
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Well, all the guys, uh, once they do get to shore, all four of them feel like they're in some altered state.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Like, their head space is just weird. Umm, and when they get to the campsite, even though they feel like they've only been gone for maybe 20 minutes, the several massive logs on the fire have burnt completely down.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp", their giant fire.
Em Schulz: It said it was almost as if the entire fire, entire fire had been consumed hours ago.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And Jack said he felt really sick, uh, for the rest of the night. Like, and he said he felt like something was trying to lift him off the ground. Like he felt like a vertigo.
Christine Schiefer: Oof. Ooh. That makes you think like they had a difference in gravity.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, or like had, uh...
Em Schulz: Or like, they're readjusting to this gravity.
Christine Schiefer: Like altitude sickness or something. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: All of them were weirdly calm after what happened. And Chuck said, "I remember stepping out of the canoe and going up to the campsite." This is after he, Chuck is the one who's been like in a trance.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Then when he wakes up, "I remember stepping out of the canoe and going up to the campsite, and I remember there was no panic. People seemed to be very relaxed. The unusual thing is that we didn't stay up for hours and discuss this thing, which is what you think four young guys on a camping trip would do. We just seemed very fatigued and wanted to go to bed. The next morning we got up and got our camp together and just paddled to the next campsite." So they didn't even, it didn't even cross their minds to address it.
Christine Schiefer: Just fucking went about their business? And that's what we, I mean, I've talked with you about this like in other circumstances, but when they talk about paranormal apathy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: At least on Astonishing Legends, they talk about all the time where the idea that, like, something will happen and you'll be like, "well, anyway, back to bed."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then the next day you're like, wait, what the fuck? Like, that should, that demon should have like, shaken me out of my stupor. But you kind of just go into like, oh, well shrug it off.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, uh, I mean they really just.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder what that, like, what the aliens are doing to make you feel so apathetic. Like, I don't know.
Em Schulz: For all we know, it's them just like straight up saying like, like if they, 'cause they're, a lot of 'em speak telepathically, right? So maybe they just like say something that like sticks with you.
Christine Schiefer: Like you better not talk about that.
Em Schulz: I guess. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know how much of it is like the aliens doing something and how much of it is like your brain's like, need for survival.
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: And like you just your your own brain dissociates.
Christine Schiefer: That's a good point. That's a good point. And it's like that kind of shock that people go into sometimes where they just like, I mean, I've told stories on this podcast of people who get stabbed repeatedly wake up and like, make coffee before even realizing like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They had a traumatic head injury. Or, you know, so I guess yeah, you're right. It could just be like a survival mechanism. Like.
Em Schulz: Or it could be space magic, we don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Or it could be space magic. Mm.
Em Schulz: By the time they all got to their next campsite the next day, all of their memories of the event were completely fuzzy as if they were erasing themselves.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh. It's like a dream where it kind of fades.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Did you know in the first like, minute of being awake, you've forgotten 90% of your dream?
Christine Schiefer: I do. That's why I write them down. It really helps with people.
Em Schulz: But how do you do that in, within a minute of waking up?
Christine Schiefer: I have a journal literally right here that says dreams.
Em Schulz: Okay. Because I...
Christine Schiefer: Like, I have, or I grab my phone and I do like a voice note sometimes.
Em Schulz: Gotcha. Gotcha. I have.
Christine Schiefer: I would try it. It really works.
Em Schulz: I wrote.
Christine Schiefer: I was telling Eva.
Em Schulz: I wrote one in my notepad recently, but that was the only one I've ever written down. Just because I remembered like, let's see how much I can remember.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting how even before you go to sleep, if you set an intention, like, I'm gonna have a dream tonight, you will remember it because you've already like, consciously made a point to remember it. Umm, so I do that and then writing it down within like a week of writing down your dreams, I swear to God, you wake up and you're like, "wow. I have like a whole novel in my head."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's really freaky.
Em Schulz: That's wild. I have a lot of deja vu in my dreams where I know that I'm going to...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Ew.
Em Schulz: I'm like, I, which makes me think like either there's certain worlds that I just tap into best when I'm sleeping.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or even if I think I've forgotten a dream, it is actually still very alive in the back of my head.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like reliving it almost.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like.
Christine Schiefer: In your dreams again.
Em Schulz: I go to the same sets all the time...
Christine Schiefer: I do.
Em Schulz: In my dreams.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh. And sometimes during my day I'll like think about that set.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm like, I want to go to there. Like, that's, that's a nice place.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, oh, the high school hallway with the green lockers. Like [laughter] I don't know. And now I'm so well.
Em Schulz: Well, now I'm gonna, and now I'm totally gonna end up there.
Christine Schiefer: Now we're gonna meet there. I'll leave you a note in locker 22.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay Got it. I'll go tell you what the note says. Although I feel like it probably looks like...
Christine Schiefer: You'll probably... You'll probably wake up and be like, I remember. And then fall back asleep and go, oh shit.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: I immediately forgot. I forgot to write it down. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Or I feel like, umm, the handwriting because maybe I can't read in my dreams or something and it'll look like AI written words.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Like the kind of gobbledygook.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Like just scribbles. Or it'll like, not make any sense. Maybe I'll, oh, I'll put, how about this? I'll put a stuffed animal in your locker and you can find that.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: Instead of like, writing, so that it's not.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Does that make sense? Okay.
Em Schulz: That... That's helpful. That's helpful.
Christine Schiefer: I'll think, I'll think of, uh, some, some options so that in case this ever actually happens, I won't stand there and go uh-oh, which stuffed animal, and then forget.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know?
Em Schulz: Right, right. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I gotta be ready.
Em Schulz: I appreciate that. Uh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: What were we talking about?
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. They forgot all their memories of the UFO.
Em Schulz: Oh, yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: They faded away.
Em Schulz: They're all fading away. And by the time they got home 10 days later, they had pretty much forgotten the event totally.
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: And it didn't come back for years.
Christine Schiefer: And I mean, it.
Em Schulz: Like.
Christine Schiefer: It probably, it must have, I mean, I don't know. Must, but you're probably right that it has a lot to do with trauma response. Like if you're just so traumatized that you block it out until years later when you start processing it, like that would match...
Em Schulz: On top of space magic you're...
Christine Schiefer: Real life trauma.
Em Schulz: You're doomed.
Christine Schiefer: On top of space magic. Right. Like, what are you gonna do? Totally.
Em Schulz: So years later, they finally have these memories come back, and this is in the '80s, Jack starts having nightmares where his back is pressed against a wall.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But it doesn't feel like a wall. It feels like an upright table.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Ew.
Em Schulz: And on on this table, he could not move or speak. He could only feel and think. And he knew his friends were sitting next to him also in a trance.
Christine Schiefer: This is like, I mean, hell, he's like having sleep paralysis in in actual UFO.
Em Schulz: In his dream. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In... This is so fucked up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In his dream. Right. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And the worst part is like he said, like, is he's, he's saying he could sense his friends next to him, but they were in a, in a altered state where they didn't know to help him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, ew. So he was like aware, but they were still in a trance. No, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: Which, like, I wonder if like, you know, "the anesthesia" was wearing off.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like, if he had to be kind of coherent during the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Procedures or something. Because like, why would they let you even remember that at all?
Christine Schiefer: Have that memory. Yeah, maybe they, they...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Gave you something in it slipped, like you said, like the anesthesia wore off or whatever. Ooh, that's horrible.
Em Schulz: Yeah Jack said, "I had no idea where I was or why I was there to my left. I could see my brother, Chuck and Charlie sitting on some type of bench and they were all naked. I was wondering why they weren't helping me because I felt like I was in danger."
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: "And while I'm trying to figure this out, I notice this figure or a dark shadowy type figure emerging from the light, this bright light in front of me." So these, he starts calling them the entities and then he starts calling them the things.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And two of these things was, uh, they, he had this bright light in front of him, but then when they showed up, they blocked out the light. And he remembers these two entities coming up to him, looking at him, lifting up his arm, observing his armpit. Which yikes. I like, imagine already. I.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em...
Em Schulz: At first...
Christine Schiefer: I feel your pain. I feel your pain.
Em Schulz: I'm like, I can't...
Christine Schiefer: Because I know how much you hate that.
Em Schulz: Well, I can't imagine anything more, uh, like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Vulnerable.
Em Schulz: Vulnerable than being on a fucking spaceship and like trapped on a fucking bed with aliens. But then to expose your naked fucking armpit to them, that's literally, that's the, that's the test. That's the final test.
Christine Schiefer: That's a fresh hell. That's a fresh fucking hell dude.
Em Schulz: That's the final test. I I can't ima...
Christine Schiefer: And I know you. Don't you part... In particular hate, like, the idea of your under... Is that you, who hates that?
Em Schulz: I mean, most, but most people I think have a thing with armpits.
Christine Schiefer: Yes yeah.
Em Schulz: I really hate having them open.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I thought.
Em Schulz: Umm, I also, I hate having my, my my threck open.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Your threck. Me too. I don't like having that open.
Em Schulz: Like sleeping.
Christine Schiefer: But I think that's just... I watch too much Criminal Minds.
Em Schulz: Me too. Sleeping on a plane like this, I can't sleep like that. Like, I always sleep hunched or forward.
Christine Schiefer: No no no no no don't expose your throat.
Em Schulz: Because I feel like someone's just gonna come over and just ka-ching.
Christine Schiefer: Slit it. Right.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's probably from our, uh, media, con... Uh.
Em Schulz: Consumption.
Christine Schiefer: How much... Consumption. Thank you. Umm.
Em Schulz: Same thing where if I'm on the couch and I'm like stretched out like this with my hands, like over the couch, I feel like someone's gonna do that to my wrists.
Christine Schiefer: Your wrists. That's what it is.
Em Schulz: It's all of it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Maybe that. It's all, it's all of it. Okay. I get it.
Em Schulz: Anything, uh, anything that in a natural, uh, position is covered is something.
Christine Schiefer: Is.
Em Schulz: Like I've got my little.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. When you're just...
Em Schulz: My little armpits, I got the bottoms of my feet.
Christine Schiefer: It's like your be... Your soft underbelly.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like, don't show your vulnerable parts.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Yes, exactly. Umm, but yeah, I can't, I feel like I could have almost like been on a UFO trapped on the bed. I could have probably played it cool up until then. But the second they...
Christine Schiefer: The armpit then.
Em Schulz: Then put my arm up. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no, no no.
Em Schulz: I'm screaming like a fucking, like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Because what are they gonna do like on earth the worst thing is they'd tickle me in space...
Christine Schiefer: In space.
Em Schulz: They could.
Christine Schiefer: With space magic.
Em Schulz: They're probing. They're inserting they're...
Christine Schiefer: Think of the space magic...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: That could happen to that armpit. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I can't even, I can't even.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: I can't.
Christine Schiefer: Em's really having a conniption right now. [laughter],
Em Schulz: Oh my god. His poor armpit. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: This is like how I feel about spines, by the way. So I, there better not be any of that nonsense.
Em Schulz: There's no spines.
Christine Schiefer: Because I will have to... Thank God. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, so he thinks they're going to implant something in his armpit by the way they were looking at it, which I don't blame him. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: No. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But honestly, fortunately for him, I would say he wakes up too early from the dream every time to know what happens from there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But can I make like a side note?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, you know, for the first time this episode, [laughter], can I make a comment? Umm, thank you for the permission, [laughter], when you said implant it in his armpit. This, I swear to God it's relevant. So for a brief period of time, I was on, uh, Nexplanon, I think it was called, which is a birth control implant.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. That was when we first became friends.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And I, it was, I reacted very badly to it. And I still feel terrible 'cause I recommended it to multiple friends before I had all the side effects. And then they were like...
Em Schulz: Whoops.
Christine Schiefer: "I feel miserable." And I was like, "yeah, maybe get that out. 'cause I had to." [laughter] Umm, but beyond that, so what they did, they implanted it like basically in your fucking armpit. Em and the reason I, oh, I didn't mean to upset you, but what I [laughter] I'm sorry. I really, I wasn't saying that to upset you. I was just saying it to say that seems to be where these kinds of things are implanted. So maybe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If we...
Christine Schiefer: The aliens were like, yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean clearly we've done it. Others can.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's kinda like, oh, that's odd. 'cause that usually would be where the implant goes.
Em Schulz: Ah, man, if there were a river, I would just simply jump into it. [laughter], I...
Christine Schiefer: You would tip the canoe goodbye cruel world. I'm leaving my husk behind. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It now because of the story. If I ever get abducted in the woods, I am absolutely, uh, tanking my own boat. So I don't just for my armpit's sake.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] You're like, I give up. I'm out. I'm out.
Em Schulz: So anyway, they mess with his armpit for a second.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: He does not have the same panic attack that I did. But, umm, after, so that's like his, that's a nightmare that he has, that he's strapped to this thing. His friends are there, they're messing with his armpit.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's horrible.
Em Schulz: Now it's gonna be a dream. I have. Uh, and.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, now we're all gonna think it's our reality too.
Em Schulz: And after each nightmare he would feel really, really sick like he did the night of the orb. Remember? He, like, afterwards, everyone felt off.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But he felt really particularly sick.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh, ew.
Em Schulz: So he would have these nightmares and he would feel that same thing all over again. And it would last for days. And then it turned out that his twin was also having the same nightmares. So...
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Looking for answers, he goes to a conference where he, like, he knows that there's gonna be like UFO experts there. He meets Raymond Fowler, who is a big Ufologist. And, uh, Jack starts writing his experiences down uh, after asking Raymond for help, he's like, "please, I like, just need someone to, to help me."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I guess Raymond said, okay, start writing your, your stuff down and all of a sudden more emerges. More things start coming back.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably the same as the dreams, like writing it down.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It like triggers your mind to keep thinking about it.
Em Schulz: I do wonder if aliens, uh, when you're abducted, they operate on this, not like physically surgeon-wise operate, but I wonder if they, they, whatever they do to you is in the same part of your brain that messes with dreams where it's like...
Christine Schiefer: With the dream. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like, it's gonna be really fuzzy immediately within a couple of days you're not gonna remember anything. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: It makes me wonder, like when you're put under for twilight sleep where you're like sort of conscious.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And like you can hazy in and out. Like maybe that's the what they do to you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like twilight sleep. So you're like, so it's kind of somewhere in your consciousness. But then it makes you wonder though, why don't they just take you totally out? Like.
Em Schulz: Right. Like, knock my ass out.
Christine Schiefer: Why, why do the memories resurface? Like why are they not good at...
Em Schulz: Why can't...
Christine Schiefer: Really deleting memories.
Em Schulz: Or why can't they just like, they can fuck with your subconscious, but they can't like just make you sleepy? Like it would...
Christine Schiefer: Like erase it. Yeah. It's so weird.
Em Schulz: Like, if an alien wanted to abduct me, they could literally just make me wanna take a nap and then I would definitely not remember any of it. And like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you don't remember it anyway. Well.
Em Schulz: You could you could do whatever you wanted with my armpits, I wouldn't know.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh, don't make that proclamation on air. Umm, no. Em what if some people, and they just don't know this, but like, what if some people are like more immune to whatever...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Whatever space magic they have. And like for example, his three friends who were totally out, like maybe some people are like completely put under, but then some people like break through the anesthesia.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe it's more, more people who do like dream work like you do and they're...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe.
Em Schulz: They're...
Christine Schiefer: They're unfortunately Well I'm gonna stop now 'cause I don't think I would wanna remember any of this, but yeah, good point.
Em Schulz: Well, so, okay. This is how he describes the beings that were in his nightmares. He wrote, uh, 'cause he is... Remember he's writing them down now 'cause he's... More things are showing up in his dreams.
Christine Schiefer: Right, well for Raymond.
Em Schulz: Yes. Uh, in these dreams he's now seeing them better and remembering them. And he writes, "they have large heads on a thin neck and two large metallic looking eyes. By that I mean they are colored like those kinds of phosphorescent beetles that seem to change colors as they move."
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Whoa.
Em Schulz: "My impression is that they are insect like."
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: "But they have no antennas or anything. And they don't have carnivorous looking parts. Their hands are at the ends of their arms, but they are not like our hands. They are more elongated with only four fingers. There were no eyelids." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." This is horrible. This is horrible. I can't cope with it.
Em Schulz: Or like you went... Oh yeah. Yeah. And that's important too. No eyelids like everything else, like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, did I mention the no eyelids? 'cause there were no eyelids.
Em Schulz: Like speaking of, speaking of another thing that I like fucking creeps me out are eyelids like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know.
Em Schulz: That's that's on the same on same par as as armpits.
Christine Schiefer: I get that. I can totally get that.
Em Schulz: So Jack begins referring to these entities as the things and Raymond, after like hearing what he's been going through and what he's seeing totally believes that the four men went through something and offered to do, uh, to offer... Or he offered hypnosis sessions basically.
Christine Schiefer: Aha. Here we go.
Em Schulz: Where he could uncover repressed memories of the event. And they all said yes, but they made Jim go first, which I like. They're like, you go first. And within two sessions Jim was remembering things.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." And he's the one who's been writing it down. Right. Or is he the...
Em Schulz: Uh, him or his twin, but they're having the same nightmares, so.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, and the events happened presumably while they were out at shore. This, this abduction. Right so.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Uh, right before getting back to land, when they blacked out, they assumed that's when this happened. And he said the event began when they all looked up at the beam of light as it was pointing down directly up on them. Umm, they looked up into it and realized that the beam of light actually wasn't just a beam of light, but it was, the light was covering up a tube to a room that they were all pulled up towards.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Which I love that it's actually like, like movie magic where it has to look pretty from far away. But when you get up close, it's like a bunch of rubber tubing and shit. [laughter] It's like, just like so janky.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] They're like, we're just gonna vacuum suction you up here. [laughter] But from, from afar it looks beautiful.
Em Schulz: It's like the beam of light makes this a real classy, but actually this is like my dad's broken down RV and I need you to come up here real quick.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. It's a rusty ladder.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So they, they get sucked up through this tube and he remembered seeing his brother Jack standing against the wall, just like in Jack's nightmares.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: So now he's seeing the other perspective.
Christine Schiefer: That's horrible. So from the other perspective, that's no good.
Em Schulz: The entities were using telepathy of course, to communicate with them.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And the things told them to remove their clothes and then the guys' bodies were evaluated and, uh, the guys were then separated into individual rooms. It doesn't really feel like indi-individual rooms. 'cause I saw a sketch that they had done when they were recounting their experience and it, it felt like they were all in one room, but taking turns on, on the table. But...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, taking turns on the table. No.
Em Schulz: Because remember, now, this is two perspectives of it, but they're all sitting on a bench...
Christine Schiefer: There were three of them.
Em Schulz: When they're not being examined.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they're just like...
Christine Schiefer: They might have been in the same space.
Em Schulz: And they're just hypnotized to, like, not move until it's their turn to get on the table.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um. And so they were all forced to give samples of things. I think probably they all got the exact same samples taken out of them, but Jim specifically remembers being forced to give a sperm sample.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm, Jim was then sent back to the bench where uh Charlie and Chuck were sitting, and then Jack came back as well. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: Jim felt that the things were more interested, because this is what I'm noticing, too, is that Jack and Jim, they're the ones that, uh, are having these recurring nightmares. They're the ones who remember being evaluated, and their friends are just kind of sitting behind. But I feel like, because they also felt sick after the experience and their friends didn't, I'm wondering if more things happened to them or if they were more... Something more vulnerable happened to them. And I thought this while doing the notes, but then I saw, you know, through the notes that Jim actually also said the same thing, that maybe the entities were more interested in them because they were identical twins.
Christine Schiefer: Literally, from the moment you started this and said they were twins, I was like, oh my God, the aliens are studying the twins just like we are.
Em Schulz: Yeah, [laughter] well, they're like, there's two of them. Uh. And so...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that must be fascinating.
Em Schulz: It must be. If, if you'd never seen a twin, like two identical twins before. I know it's wrong to stare, but if, if that was the first time you've ever seen something, you'd go, Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be so perplexed.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'd be like, that's... That's just... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: It's incredible. It's remarkable.
Em Schulz: Nature is insane. Umm. So, yeah. Anyway, I also thought the same thing of maybe because they're twins, they got more attention.
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: And that's why they have more memories coming back faster.
Christine Schiefer: And more, more side effects, and, yeah. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Umm, during the sessions... Remember, by the way, Charlie just came to carry canoes. He wasn't even on the first invite roster.
Christine Schiefer: Poor Charlie.
Em Schulz: Uh, this poor guy. So during the sessions, Jim would get so panicked in his hypnosis that Raymond actually wondered whether it was ethical to continue the regression.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: But the hypnotherapist, which just like how we were saying, or even you were saying with Leona, like, you just kind of distract them to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, the hypnotherapist in the room would say, "oh, no. Like, even if it's not ethical, let's just... Let's... Uh, let's rewrite the way that they're seeing things so he, he'll stop panicking. So now, instead of him... "
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: "Experiencing these things, we're just having him explain to us what he's seeing on TV, and like he's just... "
Christine Schiefer: Right. Reframe it so it's less scary.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You're not feeling these things. You're just watching a movie. What's happening in the movie? Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Just gaslight him. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just totally gaslight him. That's like, of all the things concerned here, he's... All things considered sorry, he's uh... That's not the worst thing that happened to him today, is getting gaslit.
Christine Schiefer: It's a very good point. Okay. And at least it makes him feel better. You're so right.
Em Schulz: After Jim did his sessions, Jack agreed to do a regression, too, and he was able to confirm all the things Jim recalled. He said that "the things repeatedly told them, do not be afraid. We won't harm you." Uh okay. You're strapped to a table, taking samples and looking at my armpit. Nice try.
Christine Schiefer: Nice fucking try. Yeah, my armpit alone is too far.
Em Schulz: Like, the concept of you even knowing or wanting to know about my armpit is harm. So leave me alone.
Christine Schiefer: It's harming me already.
Em Schulz: Jack told them during his uh regressions that uh they also used telepathy on him. He... Oh, and then he said, uh, when they said, "don't be afraid. We won't harm you," he told them back using telepathy, "I am afraid. Like... Stop this."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Nice try. That part. And why also, why can't they make that go away?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Or do they not want to? Like, it, it's so creepy to me. Like, they can control some things, and some things, seemingly, they have no control over. So.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like... I mean, I... I don't know enough about earthbound science, let alone their science, but I do think it's interesting that they... I mean, it's a genius superpower to, like, if you need to communicate with us, but we can't hurt you or anything, or we can't disrupt you. They can just, like... It's almost like turning the radio volume up and down. Like, if they want to talk to us, they can, and otherwise, they don't have to pay attention to us.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's kind of crazy.
Em Schulz: Uh, he said he was too... He was afraid, regardless of what they were trying to do.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, he wanted to put his clothes on, and he wanted to leave. And Jack remembers having a sample taken from him as well, and then other fluids other than sperm via catheter and enema.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh my God! What the f!
Em Schulz: When the procedure was done, he was sat back down on the bench next to the other guys, and from there, the things brought them back to the area where the other end of the tube was. That looks like a light from far away. Uh, and I don't know if they got pushed or escorted or whatever, but they are now sliding down the tube to get back to their boat. And the experience of being in the beam of light, he said, "felt like being ripped apart in all directions."
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh, no. It wasn't even a fun ride? That's terrible.
Em Schulz: I know. You'd hope it'd be, like, the best slide of your life. Like just to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would think so. Right into water.
Em Schulz: Just to make up for it. Umm, no, being ripped apart, that makes me think, like, they really do completely alter your chemistry or something up there for you to be uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: To accommodate like whatever they've got going on gravity wise or altitude wise or science wise, um and they have to like re...
Christine Schiefer: And they just like toss you back in.
Em Schulz: Like, recalibrate you for earth or something. A moment later, he remembers being back in the canoe with his friends and paddling towards shore.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking hell. I do... It makes me wonder if you're right about maybe they're just frozen and that's why they let them go all the way to shore, so that their bodies, they would be, like, already at shore, and maybe they froze.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, maybe. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then they're, like, consciousness went up in there and they got back. I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just, it makes...
Em Schulz: It's like. Well, they...
Christine Schiefer: Like, was the boat empty?
Em Schulz: Maybe they felt like... Are they gonna be...
Christine Schiefer: Or were they all frozen, you know?
Em Schulz: Well, so Charlie's section was next, or session was next.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And he recalled floating above the canoe, looking down at the water and then blacking out and being naked in the room. He was also lying on the table, and the thing told him to not be afraid. Then they took skin, blood, and saliva samples from him.
Christine Schiefer: God.
Em Schulz: And Charlie said, "it's cold like a doctor's office is cold. We shouldn't be here. I just kept thinking, I want to be back in the canoe."
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: And when it was over, to answer your question, he remembers one of the things, physically helping them step back into the canoe, which was...
Christine Schiefer: No!
Em Schulz: Which was moored by the beam of light. So the boat had stayed put in the water the entire time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So they basically did that thing and, like, froze the boat and then pulled them out of it. Oh. Ew.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then by the time.
Christine Schiefer: And you know what's crazy is that they probably can fucking cloak that by putting that stupid beam of light and, like, cloaking that...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: From the outside so that they're just in this tube and no one can see.
Em Schulz: And no one can see the boat. Yeah. Umm, but, yeah, so the boat had just been essentially docked mid water by them.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then. But, yeah, I wonder if they were like, "oh, we know they're gonna be tired after all the exams. Let's let them get to shore first."
Christine Schiefer: Right? We'll let them get closer to their campsite.
Em Schulz: If you're already gonna do this, can you not just, like, teleport them right back onto land, can you please not?
Christine Schiefer: Just into their beds. You know? Well, but you hear stories like, umm, I forget the guy's name. I've talked about it before, but, like, one of the... Oh, Terry Lovelace. Like, one of the scariest abduction stories ever. And like he would describe... And some other people have described, like, they get back to their campsite or what have you, and like, their shoes are on the wrong feet. Or...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, they'll wake up and be like, why is my shirt on backwards? Or like my clothes are inside out. It's almost like somebody haphazardly like tossed your stuff back on or like hoisted you into the canoe and said, okay, bye.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like, just half-assed it. So that does make sense, I guess. That your whole body would go. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, thank you. Well, even then, to answer an even earlier question of, like, I wonder what... Like, what's going on mentally for them or what these things are doing to their brains.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In Charlie's session, he remembers the things telling them telepathically to forget the experience. And pretty immediately he did. So they must also have some sort of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so you were right.
Em Schulz: They must have some sort of power to just be, like...
Christine Schiefer: Persuasion.
Em Schulz: It's so weird to use hypnosis to remember a time you were hypnotized, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. To not remember.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you were hypnotized to not remember something, now let's hypnotize you to remember. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like girl math, we're cancelling it out.
Christine Schiefer: It cancels out. Also, I realize you guys, I sound pro-probably pretty stupid because I'm like, oh, maybe their bodies are frozen. But then I'm like, wait, they were getting, like, samples from them. So I guess their bodies had to be up there.
Em Schulz: Right, so.
Christine Schiefer: But anyway.
Em Schulz: It had to be an empty boat at some point. Yeah. So that's their three. Then in Chuck's session, he also remembers being in a naked... Being naked in a bright room. He said it looked like a veterinary office. He also had samples taken. And he also recalls watching Charlie's exam. So he was the only one who could remember sitting on the bench and watching one of his friends have a procedure done.
Christine Schiefer: That is weird.
Em Schulz: And he... So he was... He regressed back to him being uh in a trance on the bench. And he said, "I see some sort of device on him. They've got this... A thing that looks like a silvery... It looks like the... Like it's got curves on it. It's almost like it sucks something. He's got his head tipped all the way back. He's... It's almost like he's in pain. We can't help him. All I can do is watch."
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ. No wonder this is so... I mean, this is so traumatizing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: He also remembers going through, like, I assume this is the beam of light, the tube. He remembers going through a portal with a membrane at the door before the things placed him back in the canoe. So, uh, so that was all of their, their sessions that they had and what they could remember. Umm, and while Raymond is doing all of this, uh, all this research on them, he didn't do the actual hypnotizing, but he knew a guy. So between the two of them they're making this case.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: He starts asking them also about, like, their childhoods. And breaking news, Chuck remembers in one of these regression sessions that he had actually seen the things before in his childhood bedroom.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: Also breaking news. During their sessions, the twins remembered, "Oh, yeah, we used to have a poltergeist in our childhood home."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: And then Raymond was like, "Okay, I'm gonna ask your parents about this, because, like, you... Why didn't you remember fucking poltergeist? Or why did you not mention it until now?" And Raymond goes and talks to the twins' mother. The twins are like, I think, in their 20s or 30s now. And he's going to their mom and he's like, "Do you remember a poltergeist?" And her name is Jean. And she was like, "Oh, my God. Yeah, Harry."
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck. Okay, so first of all, we've got Jean, Jack and what's his name? Jim.
Em Schulz: And Jim.
Christine Schiefer: Jean, Jack, Jim. Just...
Em Schulz: I like to think. I like to think the dad's name is John. Obviously.
Christine Schiefer: It better be. I'll be really disappointed if it's, like, Kurt.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway, uh, so Harry, the fucking poltergeist.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, forget it.
Em Schulz: Uh, Jean says that Harry was a humanoid figure that the whole family see... Saw at different points.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: He was totally white with flowing robes and a beard. And...
Christine Schiefer: What in the world?
Em Schulz: Fun fact. According to Raymond and all of his UFO research, other abductees reported having childhood figures...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Show up in their home accompanying aliens wearing robed clothes.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Well, there was...
Em Schulz: Wearing flowing clothes.
Christine Schiefer: There... One... Uh, I think it was Terry Lovelace actually said that when they would visit as a child, they would dress up as, like, clowns, and they would have, like, circus monkeys. And he was, like, It was honestly scarier, but it was almost as though they were trying to make me feel at ease. But it's like they don't get that clowns walking into your room in the middle of the night doesn't... [laughter] Does not make you feel easy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so, yeah. Anyway, that's really, really creepy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, umm, no, thanks.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: But apparently they think Harry was, like, a co-conspirator in the alien situation.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Jack added that as a kid, he used to be woken up by a horrible monster who had the power to paralyze him in bed. And him and his brother would hear music at night next to their bed. They'd wake up to knocking on their door when no one was there and voices calling their names. Jack also felt something pulling covers off of him at night and trying to yank him out of bed. He also alleged seeing a ball of light moving through his house when he was home alone one day. And all of these experiences with Harry kept happening until they were 15. And then no activity. They always thought it was a ghost, but Raymond thinks it was connected to the things watching them since childhood.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, the fact that everyone saw it and...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say this suggests that hauntings that the whole family knows about could actually be aliens doing early prep on your kid to abduct them later.
Christine Schiefer: You just traumatized so many people. [laughter] Anybody whose kid has had a weird experience, they're like, "oh, no."
Em Schulz: Oh, no. And like. But I mean, not that this was, like, the aliens, like, direct intention, but it's almost genius, because then you can, you can get away with doing essentially lab research on a future abductee. And if you just put it under the guise of a ghost, you can do it in front of the whole family, and no one will know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: What's going on.
Christine Schiefer: I mean... What the fuck. Yeah. And it's always explained away as, like, oh, an imaginary friend. Or, like, oh, it's just uh the kids are imagining things, or having weird dreams. Like, we can brush that off.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And meanwhile, a clown is in the closet, like, hee hee. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so Jim later recovers another memory of actually being abducted, uh, by a bright orb when he was out sledding as a kid.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: So it was actually not his first abduction.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Who is doing the hypnosis, the hyp... The regression.
Christine Schiefer: I wanna do one.
Em Schulz: This man is so powerful. This guys knows why too much.
Christine Schiefer: I was abducted too 18 times. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] Help me. Um. Chuck remembered also 'cause remember he saw things when he was a kid. He remembered seeing strange creatures in his room when he four or five which made him go sleep in his parents room 'cause he was too freaked out. And then the same creatures came back another time when he was in bed and he was so scared that he remembers just trying to fall asleep to them observing him and then leaving.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Poor thing.
Em Schulz: Jack then... And by the way again Charlie was just there to bring the fucking canoes. Like, like Chuck and the twins they've all had these experiences since childhood. Now they're all getting abducted together which makes me think like do you think the aliens were like "oh my God, patient one and two and patient three somehow all know each other. We need to abduct all of them together and see... " You know.
Christine Schiefer: And so what I said was right, they saw Chuck and said "mother fucker who invited that guy?" Or Charlie and they were like "who invited that guy this is not... He's not supposed to be here."
Em Schulz: Charlie collateral damage the, the canoe man I suppose.
Christine Schiefer: But wait, but wait also what if they somehow orchestrated that they would all three be on this camping trip? You know what I mean like... Maybe it's not by chance that they're friends maybe it's like oh they put these people in touch. I don't know. Ugh.
Em Schulz: This is where you get like the um like the aliens are actually the gods pulling all the strings. And like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yes, like, like playing the Sims with us.
Em Schulz: Yeah and it's like oh well this guy, this guy and this guy we've been working with all of them for years let's put them all... Let's all make sure that they...
Christine Schiefer: Let's toss them all in the same pottery class.
Em Schulz: It's like when you find two puppy dogs and you make them kiss you smoosh their face into each other. It's like now you've got these three people and you're like "oh let's all smoosh them together on the same trip and put them in the same boat and isolate them out in the water." And then there's Charlie, but I guess we can, we'll the the spare. You know. Poor Charlie.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. We'll find something to do with him. We'll give him to the interns you know, pr-practice. Yeah that's horrible, sorry, God.
Em Schulz: That poor guy. That poor guy. Uh so anyway, yeah it could have been fully...
Christine Schiefer: Orchestrated.
Em Schulz: Divinely orchestrated in some way. Um but yeah Jim, Jack and Chuck all had really creepy experiences when they were kids. The, one of the twins was um abducted. Uh and Jack then later remembered that after the whole event that happened out in the water that the things came back and abducted him again.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Um apparently he was... He woke up in the middle of the night one time to let the dogs out and saw a light go through his window. And then he saw the things appear in his room.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp."
Em Schulz: They woke up his wife, his wife who was in bed with him, who like she probably... Being married to someone who's abducted I feel like you're like I could be next by proxy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I would be sleep in a different room or house or country please.
Em Schulz: I feel like Mary maybe had that thought and unfortunately it was a, it was a true... A valid fear because um apparently the things wanted Jack and I guess because Mary was there they went "come along Mary." Just like they did to Charlie.
Christine Schiefer: Hell no.
Em Schulz: And in a trance they both walked out of the field and followed the light.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Uh.
Em Schulz: And Jack remembers being told "go home and go to bed and if he tried talking about this event it would hurt."
Christine Schiefer: You've had stories like that before too. Not you but you know you told stories like of it being really painful or uncomfortable to talk about.
Em Schulz: Which yeah, it's so mysterious as to like like would it physically hurt, will karma come back, will you hear about it and do something to me? But also for them to go "don't be afraid, we're not gonna hurt you but if you ever talk about this again it's gonna fucking hurt."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah and you're gonna be traumatized for the rest of your life but that doesn't count.
Em Schulz: Yeah and uh... But so when he discovered this in his regression, so like holy shit they've, they've been back and they hurt me and my wife. His wife heard about that and went "um can I actually get in on that, that next hypnosis session, please?"
Christine Schiefer: My turn.
Em Schulz: I, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna see what's going on there. Um and since... So since she was involved in the abduction case Mary did a session. The guy who was doing the hypnosis suggested that she bring friend in case she was uncomfortable in a room with men performing hypnosis on her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which seems nice, but also, I think it was maybe more for him to make sure there was a witness in the room that he wasn't doing anything fishy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I guess some sort of witness.
Em Schulz: Like for his, for his own business, I think he... For his own business, I think he didn't wanna be accused of anything.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it was also written like he really did worry about her.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and also it's like, why would you even need to insist...
Em Schulz: Fear for his safety.
Christine Schiefer: Though that seems weird, but okay, whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I, I, yeah. I don't know how to feel about it, I was just like "Oh that's nice".
Christine Schiefer: But I would just say bring a friend in case it's emotionally difficult or something like, you don't have to say in case, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. In case you're worried about me doing something to you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, and well I am now. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] It's like a guy when he is like, I'm not dangerous, don't worry.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I'm like, girl, now I'm fucking scared. But yeah...
Christine Schiefer: Now I take the bear now, please get away.
Em Schulz: So maybe, maybe he was a great guy. I don't know. But it just, it, I, I, it felt weird. It felt off. But, umm, uh, anyway, so she brought along Chuck's wife, and, uh, ultimately she was, not that she was too uncomfortable in the session, but she, she couldn't, like, something was preventing her from talking about the event as if something told her, don't talk about this or you'll be hurt.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And so she couldn't actually go through with the session. And because of that, umm, the guy who was doing the hypnosis, his name's Tony by the way, he decided that he was going to do a different tactic and use a pendulum, which is usually obviously used to communicate with spirits. But if she held it in her hands and, uh, maybe just kind of like, let herself sink into her subconscious, then maybe she would make tiny movements with her hand that she wa... Didn't realize she was in control over something...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And they would give the answers that she needed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So I don't know how accurate of a test that is. I don't know if that's reliable enough, but she ended up getting, uh, some answers again. Like they can be taken with a grain of salt, but this whole story can do.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Sure.
Em Schulz: So whatever, umm, she asked had, had she experienced something that night that she was told to forget, and then the pendulum said yes. She said, she asked could she remember these if she wanted to, the events, it said yes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And then she asked would the events scare her and that she got yes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: By the end of the session, she had determined she was abducted with Jack and had endured several exams, uh, similar to the guys. And once Tony finished his sessions with everyone, Raymond compiled all the documentation. And that includes like character testimonies and things like that. Anyone who knew any of these people said they would not make this up. Umm, and Raymond later published the book, a, a, a book about it called "The Allagash Abductions, uh, Undeniable Evidence of Alien Intervention." And the media picked up on it. The Allagash Four ended up even going on talk shows for a while. Umm, and they remained close with each other for quite some time until there was a rift between Chuck and the other three men. And in 2016, Chuck said that the other three cut him out of his circle, and he felt like he could finally say that the details of the event were exaggerated. According to Chuck the fire logs that they put out so that way it would burn forever. They were actually much smaller and could have burnt out on their own within that time. Umm, taking away the lost time element that everyone was harping on.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: He also said that they were, you know, smoking really intense, super concentrated cannabis. Uh, but also if there were drugs involved, I don't think there's a cannabis product out there that would make you hallucinate a whole abduction.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it seems...
Em Schulz: Maybe, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean it could I guess. But it seems like unlikely that all three of them would have this like, shared... Or all four of them, I guess. But yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Seems like it doesn't explain everything.
Em Schulz: Uh, also the other three said that like, they were like, "we were not under the influence. We had each had one beer that night." Uh, they also said that they had been having issues with Chuck for a long time, and, uh, hence their breakup with him and that him going out, you know, causing this controversy that it wasn't real was just him being vengeful after they broke up with him. Umm, which I could totally see that being like, oh, if you don't wanna be my friend anymore, I'm gonna tell everyone that like, none of this happens.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and the fact that he didn't say none of it happened, right? Or did he?
Em Schulz: Yeah, it was exaggerated.
Christine Schiefer: He didn't say like, oh no, they ma... We all made it up. Like, he's like, no, it was just different than that. It's like, well, that's still scary.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Didn't explain it.
Em Schulz: They said, Chuck, uh, the rea... One of the reasons that they ended things with him was that he once approached them to try to make money off of the story. And his like pitch was that he would try to like announce that the handling of their case was done improperly. Like trying to just like, stir up and cause controversy between like all the people who like were helping them.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I, I don't totally understand. Uh, and also MUFON, the, the Mutual UFO Network, they, they were heavily involved in this, I guess. And so Chuck was trying to... I think they were... He was just trying to stir shit up so that way they would still be the talk of the town and it would keep interest or something like that. And, uh, they thought that from that moment, their relationship with him never really recovered, 'cause why would you wanna exploit us for this situation? Chuck went on to say that he is open-minded about alien abductions, but he does not think any of the four of them were abducted that night. And the others who are still friends say that Chuck changed his story just because he wanted to control the narrative. He's also, like one of the ones who in his regression said that he like saw aliens and shit at night when he was a kid.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I feel like, like are you just saying you lied the whole time, or is that true? But this isn't.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, Jim later put out a statement saying, "Jack, Charlie and I, after all these years, are still in agreement with the event as we remember it. We also accept the results of the hypnotic regression sessions and subsequent polygraph tests as support of an abduction." And then Chuck his accusations umm, although they've made some people discredit the story, including like those who doubt like the reliability of hypnosis, that has not stopped the Allagash Four from being one of the most significant abductions in the 20th century. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: That's the Allagash Four.
Christine Schiefer: I can't believe I don't know this story at all.
Em Schulz: I would like to... Because you keep mentioning him. I really wanna cover Terry Lovelace.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it scared me so badly, Em, that I like lost sleep and I don't usually lose sleep over some... I was so freaked out dude. It's scary.
Em Schulz: I would love to do that one, I... It does sound like a lot though.
Christine Schiefer: No, I mean.
Em Schulz: It sounds like actually you, you know it pretty well.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I would be annoying about it, I'm sure, but like, as Astonishing Legends...
Em Schulz: That's fine.
Christine Schiefer: I did like a four part and you know, their episodes are like four hours each.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, and they interviewed him.
Em Schulz: I feel like with Astonishing Legends, you almost never need to hear another version of it.
Christine Schiefer: You don't, it's so thorough.
Em Schulz: They cover, they cover every, which like, I'm... This is not me bashing them at all. It's just very different than the way that obviously I handle things.
Christine Schiefer: Oh 100%.
Em Schulz: But they will tell you like the color of the floor on the, on the, of their childhood home, blah, blah. Like, they will tell you every single piece of information they can.
Christine Schiefer: And I love that. I'm like, tell me every tiny bit.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I need to know every little bit. And some people don't like that. And I'm like...
Em Schulz: No, I think mine are definitely more crash courses. And if you wanna learn more, there's more out there for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. If you're like really into a topic especially, like you'll find everything you need from them [laughter] on the subject.
Em Schulz: Yeah they... You don't have to do any, like, they have watched everything and researched everything and, but yeah. All their episodes are also like four episodes long.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, uh, that's why mine are more bite-sized as I've just talked for an hour and a half. But whatever...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say our are bite size, like compared to other podcasts are like fucking hella long. So it's like, you know, we're somewhere...
Em Schulz: It's, it's an Astonishing Legends bite size...
Christine Schiefer: Light. Yeah [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's an... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: AL light. Umm, okay, so I have a true crime case for you today Em, this is a story that I've actually wanted to cover since the dawn of this podcast because I know...
Em Schulz: Oh my God, you really waited a long time.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I've known about it for a long time and I was always, uh, upset by it. And I just put it off, put it off, put it off. Then, uh, Saoirse recommended it. I said, you know what, let's do it. It's about time. This is the story of Blanche Monnier. Now, this takes place in France, so I apologize, is all I'm gonna say.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But there's a town in, uh, West Central France called Poitiers. And it is an... I guess people in the US often say Poitiers, Poitiers, but apparently it's Poitiers. Uh...
Em Schulz: Okay, beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: Because the S is silent, I'm sure French people are like horrific...
Em Schulz: Stunning.
Christine Schiefer: But, uh, anyway, so in the 19th century, this town was an important hub for culture, history, education. And they had a university there called University of Poitiers. And in that time, this is like the late 1800s we're talking, there was a man named Charles Emile Monnier. And he was greatly involved in the town's cultural history. He was an academic and he eventually even became the dean of University of Poitiers. And he's up there, I'm telling you this to say like he's in the upper echelon of society.
Em Schulz: Big dude in charge.
Christine Schiefer: Big dude in charge. His wife, Madame Louise de Marconnay Monnier was a desce...
Em Schulz: Okay girl.
Christine Schiefer: That was so not right, uh, was a descendant of the French aristocracy. So they are like, not a love match, but a status match.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: She had been born in 1825 to a successful stockbroker. And when she was 22, Louise and Charles married, and as wealthy newlyweds, they were able to make their home in a large, beautiful townhouse in the city of Poitiers. And if they wanted to, you know, take a break from city life, they could enjoy their second home in the countryside, and they would rent out the, uh, other, that property, umm, to make additional income, umm, when they weren't there.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: All of this is to say, they're very socially important. They're at the top of the food chain.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And even in, not just in Poitiers, but also in France they had a lot of sway. They're, you know, descendants from a, of aristocrats. They're very, very important people. Now, public opinion of the family was said to have been extremely positive. Like people really thought these, this family was the creme de la creme, like just great people.
Em Schulz: The Kardashians royalty...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know about Kardashians, I would say they have more of a, uh, up and down reputation. But these people were, were known to be the most like noble giving, you know, charitable, uh, involved...
Em Schulz: Oh, I see.
Christine Schiefer: In society, family, one of the most top tier families in town.
Em Schulz: Like of of the upper echelon, they are some of the good guys. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, tippity top. And they were so involved, you know, societally speaking and in charitable organizations, etcetera. And public opinion of Madame Louise. Madame Louise, the mother was very positive. However, she was said to be, this is like later we found out, said to be intimidating and demanding at home. So according to their house staff, Charles, the father would often defer to Louise for most things. And apparently Louise liked it this way because she had a cruelness about her that, uh, she reserved only for people under her own roof. So that's nice.
Em Schulz: So do you think, so was the, her being super kind, is that, umm, is that like just for show then you think?
Christine Schiefer: I don't even know that anyone thought they were kind. I think it was just like, oh, they do so much for the town and culture, the arts. Like, they're just very, uh, she's very, uh, involved and popular and you know, in all on all the boards.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I don't know that people thought she was like really congenial and like, fun to be around. I think people in...
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: In the fancy hierarchy just thought like, oh, those are some upstanding citizens, you know?
Em Schulz: Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of the vibe I get. Umm, and I, I think also back then, like it was totally chill to be a fucking cruel person to your staff at home or like your, you know, I don't think...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: People were looking down on her for treating her maids with disrespect, you know? So, uh.
Em Schulz: Right. Totally.
Christine Schiefer: She was definitely considered more, uh, demanding and harsh at home. Umm, but yeah, outwardly she was very polite and upstanding. So very respected people for their noble lineage, lineage, their wealth, umm, Charles's academic position, which made him very smart. Louise's social contributions to the town. And so as a 19th century socialite, it was basically her responsibility to get involved in anything considered high society. We're talking the arts, museums, theater, charities, social causes, church, throwing balls and parties, you know, all that nonsense. That's kind of what she was like A plus at.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So her appearances and actions, you know, needed to reflect pro... Perfectly and properly on her family, and Charles, her husband and themselves as a couple. So every aspect of their lives needed to be up to this like, rigid social expectation of the time of their class. And it seemed like they were nailing it. Even the staff they employed in the home were, you know, as far as Madame Louise was concerned, were representative of their standing in, in society.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so for an example, a woman named Madame Renard, a, a maid who worked for the family for 40 years, actually received a medal because of how diligently and well she did her job as a servant on, in this household. She got a medal for it. I feel like I'd be like...
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Give me a raise, but, okay thanks for the medal. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The city apparently had a committee of good works, and so they handed out a medal to the, uh, Monnier family maid for her outstanding contributions.
Em Schulz: You know, I would like to know what she's like, what qualified...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Or was it just to keep someone at bay?
Christine Schiefer: No, no. Okay. You'll actually get it. The award honored her for serving the family faithfully for so long and virtuously all her life. So she had basically devoted her entire adult life to working for this family.
Em Schulz: Gotcha. So be a lifer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And, uh, assuming, and Saoirse put this note in too, we don't really know necessarily like what this medal like really entailed, but we could kind of assume from the time that it probably means she set like a good example for the younger servants and maids that she did thorough work, was commendable and dependable. That she was discreet, probably, especially with like upper society, that she didn't...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She avoided gossip. She kept the family's personal business private for 40 years, all this, you know. So I think that would be what qualifies. In other words, we would not get this trophy even though we'd... We want it so bad.
Em Schulz: Not at all. The second that you said, I, I do want it so bad. I just love collecting a tchotchke...
Christine Schiefer: So shiny.
Em Schulz: But if the requirement is to not gossip, I'm out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We are done. We're, we're fired. We never even got the job to begin with, let alone a medal for it. Anyway, the award also honored the Monnier family, because they had such virtuous staff, and so that reflected directly on them as being good managers of their household. Like, you're, you're really keeping all these people under lock and key. Here's a medal. You know, it's just like.
Em Schulz: So they got a medal for giving someone else a medal.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or, or...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This woman got a medal and then by proxy they got a bigger medal because they're the ones who, who hired her, you know, it's like...
Em Schulz: Oh, I see. Right, right, right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she reflects our family. It's like, okay, I guess [laughter], Umm.
Em Schulz: I'd be, I'd be so pissed if I got a medal. Finally I got something, I got some recognition. And then they like got all of the... The...
Christine Schiefer: They get to say the thank you speech and their names on the plaque.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It really would suck.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, well, I'll just go fucking sit here and play tiddlywinks with my fucking medal. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but also if you think about it, how else would you get to the point of getting a medal? Unless you just let the, you just deferred to them your whole life, right.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like we, we'd never even been, she'd probably be thrilled. She'd probably give them the medal, be like, congratulations, you earned this.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, wait a minute, this is so fucked up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but yeah, so we would be out of the running immediately. But the point of all this is just to say that the Monnier family, they were very rich, very powerful, very well liked. I mean, they had medals for god's sake, for hiring diligent staff. Like, yikes. Uh, so for the decades they were married until Charles died and he left Louise with a considerable sum of money. And she was a very comfortable widow. And they had somehow managed all these years to avoid any sort of gossip or scandal that ruined other families of their social strata. But in 1901, that all changed.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Now soon your other comparisons might be more apt, more of a, a shift in their standing.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: One might say.
Em Schulz: Interesting, intéressante.
Christine Schiefer: So here we go. In 1901 and, umm, [laughter], I already said it wrong. In 1901, an anonymous letter was delivered to the Poitiers town public prosecutor slash the what we know of as an attorney general.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And that letter will be revealed shortly, but not yet, 'cause I'm holding that like a carrot dangling it.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. I was gonna say really, really le-leading me, I don't know, leading me towards a mystery.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm like just trying to, to keep it wrapped up and not spoil it all too soon. So quick recap of this whole family. We have Louise and Charles, they're married, they end up having two children. Their first child was a son named Marcel, who was born in 1848. And as far as we know, he was a well-behaved child, grew into a kind and intelligent gentleman of the time. He earned a doctorate in law at the University of Poitiers. He got a job in the government. He married a noble woman from Spain. Like he's just checking all the boxes for like good son in Victorian times. You know, like he's, he's nailing it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So even more checking all the boxes, like he checked the bonus, bonus, what do you call it? Bonus points. Yeah. Bonus points box. When he and his wife moved across the street from his mother. So like...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: He not only marries like the right person from the right social status, they both then move across the street so that she like has her son and daughter-in-law like right there.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, she's do... He's doing what every uh, Jewish mother is just...
Christine Schiefer: Like wishes.
Em Schulz: Begging for. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes exactly. It's like, man, every... I feel like this is that child that everybody wants.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna raise a nice Jewish boy. He's gonna go...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's gonna meet a nice Jewish girl and she's gonna be all these things. And then they're gonna move right across the street from me. And then he'll always be like next to me.
Christine Schiefer: My little baby. [laughter]
Em Schulz: My little baby.
Christine Schiefer: Until he has a baby. Then that's my little baby. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yes. So that's exactly it. They like checked all the boxes for like perfect little son and uh, they lived across the street and they had a daughter named Marie Dolores, which I think is cute, 'cause Maria's French and I'm assuming Dolores maybe comes from her Spanish background. So that's kind of a fun little...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Little name. So the Monnier's second child after Marcel was a daughter named Blanche, as we would say, but it's much prettier in French Blanche, not Blanche.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But you know...
Em Schulz: I feel like anyone whose name is Blanche comes to the US and we go, "Hey, Blanche".
Christine Schiefer: "Hey, Blanche".
Em Schulz: And they're like, oh...
Christine Schiefer: Like the almonds.
Em Schulz: God damn it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: They're like, call me anything else, please, please don't call me by my name.
Christine Schiefer: It's just the worst name, all of a sudden it's like the most beautiful to the, to the really the worst. I'm sorry if your name is Blanche, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying like, the way that Americans pronounce it compared to the original French.
Em Schulz: We really bastardized the sound.
Christine Schiefer: Like we're really like, man, let's get back. If your name is Blanche for real, first of all, that's kick, 'cause it rhymes with so many things. Like Branch. Secondly, [laughter], can we start calling you Blanch? Because I think if we started the trend and change your name from Blanch to Blanch, we could really, uh, set a new movement going.
Em Schulz: You know, but also in French, you can't say Blanch, you know so...
Christine Schiefer: Blanch. Yeah, you're right.
Em Schulz: Although that does make branch all of a sudden sounds so much better too.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe they do say branch and we just don't know it. [laughter] uh, wow. Wow. Anyway, sorry. I really probably just insulted people. I wasn't trying to, Umm, if it makes me feel better, my name is so much prettier in French and German, I think, than, than English.
Em Schulz: I mean it, oh, uh, what's your naming in in German? Just Christina.
Christine Schiefer: Christina. Which just sounds better. Like Christina.
Em Schulz: I'll never...
Christine Schiefer: It just, I don't know. It rolls off the tongue.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but it's that one, it's that sound in German that like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah... Christina Maria.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: How do you say... Christina?
Christine Schiefer: Christina.
Em Schulz: All right. Yeah. That is better. I, I'm just gonna keep saying Christina...
Christine Schiefer: I think it's pretty prettier in French. It's like...
Em Schulz: Your not.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know how to say it, but it's like very, it's like two syllables I think.
Em Schulz: I feel like, umm, you're not making fun of anyone with a certain name. You're just making fun of Americans again.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What else is new?
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy. Okay. So in any case, Blanche, Blanche was born in 1849, just a year after her older brother. She was said to be a happy and graceful child, very pretty. She grew up interested in religion. She studied at a Christian school for a time and actually wanted to become a nun. But eventually she left the, the school. And as the story goes, grew into a beautiful and kind socialite, outgoing, umm, very desirable, had countless suitors vying for her affection. But according to the rumors, when Blanche was 25, she vanished.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. She vanished.
Christine Schiefer: Stop. She vanished. Uh, yeah, she vanished at, uh, age 25.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And suddenly she was just not out and about at social events. She wasn't at parties, dinners, she wasn't at balls, she wasn't out for walks with her mother. She never visited her sister-in-law or niece across the street. Uh, even her family just stopped speaking about her and...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yep, just totally erased from history, basically. And when asked Madame Louise would only say that her daughter was away. And so people kind of read into that right. Thinking either she moved abroad or maybe she was sent away to like a boarding school.
Em Schulz: Yeah my... My first thought is, oh, my first thought immediately was that she's in like a, a psychiatric hospital.
Christine Schiefer: A psychiatric ward. Exactly. And so people are throwing these rumors around and eventually with no, like clear answers, just rumors. It just, the story died down and people stopped asking. So years went by. In 1882, Charles Monnier died, uh, like I said, leaving Madame Louise alone at home with her staff, with a pretty considerable sum of money. You know, she was not left wanting and Blanche was said to live too far away to visit, but, you know, was, was happy wherever she was. Marcel called on his mother several times a day and life went on as usual. That is until 25 years after Blanche had disappeared on May 23rd, 1901, when the chief superintendent of the Poitiers police knocked on the door and told the maid who answered that he must speak with the woman of the house. Madame Louise.
Em Schulz: And that woman said, "No, I'm trying to earn my medal. I'm not fucking letting you in". Click.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And slammed the door.
Christine Schiefer: She literally said, "who do you think I am someone who's gonna let you call upon the lady of the house and ruin my great streak of 40 years... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Of discrete service." Uh, you're exactly right. Because she said, "no, sorry, Madame Louise is ill and on bed rest goodbye" and fucking slam that door.
Em Schulz: That's right. And she, and she made sure everyone knew to whisper it back to the lady of the house so she could get that medal.
Christine Schiefer: That is, you know what? She said it loud enough, she's very ill. She can't see anyone right now. [laughter] Uh...
Em Schulz: And she pointed, she pointed at the trophy case.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Right by, by the lady's bedroom being like, oh, you see that big gap right there in, in the trophy case? Oh, look right through there. And you'll see her bedroom where she's sitting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, look right in that shining spotlight we have set up for that empty spot in the case. So yeah, she says, "Madame Louise is on bed, sorry, bye." And the superintendent said, "I have to speak with her." And she said, "sorry, you can go across the street. That's where her son lives. So go speak with Marcel." So Marcel's maid answers the door and he tells the superintendent, "oh, Marcel is actually ill and on bed rest right now." And you know, that first maid was like, seriously, you had to steal my fucking line. Like, now they don't believe us. [laughter] And just as expected, the superintendent is like, "that's weird. So you're both suddenly ill and on bed rest how convenient." Actually, he said, quote, "It's quite odd how everyone in both these houses is unwell. Tell your master that I am the chief superintendent and I have an important message for him". And then Marcel was like, "okay, I'll, okay, fine. I'll talk to you."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, whatever, sure. I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Whatever you say. I'm super sick, but I guess I'll talk to you. So Marcel agreed to speak with the superintendent, and the superintendent told him, "you know, we've had some interesting post come through to the attorney general yesterday. In fact, an anonymous letter had arrived at the office of the attorney general," and the letter read as follows: "Monsieur Attorney General, [laughter] Monsieur Attorney General I have the honor to inform you of an exceptionally serious occurrence. I speak of a spinster who was locked up in Madame Monnier's house, half-starved and living on a putrid litter for the past 25 years. In a word, in her own filth."
Em Schulz: So, okay, it's giving, like, real Rapunzel. Or what's, what's the one that's locked in the tower?
Christine Schiefer: That's the one.
Em Schulz: Okay, that sounds like that's what I'm immediately associating it with.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I feel like now that you're saying that, I feel like you have mentioned this story in passing to me.
Christine Schiefer: I think I have.
Em Schulz: About, like. Like someone who was literally trapped because it's, it is also, it's too weird for her mom to just be like, oh, she's sent away. It'd be one thing if she vanished and like the family was distraught being like, where the fuck is she? But the fact that they didn't care.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That immediately fishy. So okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but I think back then, like if you were wealthy, you could just be like, "oh, she's just away at boarding school" and it's like an asylum or something. Like I feel like you could just say things like, And nobody would find out like, oh... Especially 'cause she's a woman. Like, oh, we just sent her off.
Em Schulz: And she's summering.
Christine Schiefer: She's summering. Or she's, she's off to Canada or America, bleh. Like in the new world. Like, ignore her. You know?
Em Schulz: They're calling her Blanche now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's awful. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They's calling her Blanche. Why would she go to Canada? I don't know. I guess in Canada you could be Blanche still, go to Montreal.
Em Schulz: It's a 50/50 chance at least.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. Umm, anyway, so this is just the horrific letter that arrives. And Marcel is like, "that's ridiculous of, of course not. I see my sister every day and she's doing great. She's really well cared for. She's very healthy." And the superintendent said, "okay, that's great news, but I would like to see her before I leave."
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you see her every day, call her down.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, where is she? Yeah, exactly. And he said, oh no, guess what? Blanche is sick...
Em Schulz: She's sick.
Christine Schiefer: And on bed rest. [laughter] So yeah. It's like, wow. Weird. Umm.
Em Schulz: She's actually at, at the metal shop right now...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Just polishing...
Christine Schiefer: Just polishing...
Em Schulz: Polishing it for me.
Christine Schiefer: Metal. Yeah. No, Marcel says Blanche has been sick for 10 years with a pernicious fever. And so she is not allowed to have any visitors unless the doctor approves it. But thank God the superintendent was like, "uh mm. No, I think I'll stay and see her whether she's sick or not. I just like, I just wanna make sure nothing fishy is going on here." So Marcel was like, "I'll take you to mother." And walked him back across the street. 'cause he is like, "this is outta my league mom fix the situation." So Marcel and the superintendent walk across the street and the mom Louise was like, "uh, I don't know. I think like you can just trust it and take our word for it. Take us at our word, you know, she's fine. She's just like, has a little bit of a fever." But finally the superintendent said, "I need you to understand I'm not leaving until I see her. Like, I just... "
Em Schulz: Well also if someone tells you, uh, oh, she's had a fever for 10 years, it's not like you can think, oh, well I'll just wait until she's...
Christine Schiefer: Right like call me when she feels better...
Em Schulz: I'm gonna sit in the hall.
Christine Schiefer: Literally. So true. So he's like, I mean now or never. And it's not never 'cause I'm gonna stay here until you show me that she's okay. And so finally the mom was like, "uh, all right, come follow me." And leads a superintendent upstairs to the third floor and they're in this dark area and the superintendent finds this door, but it's padlocked.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, this is really alarming. But he manages to break the door down and there's barely, when the, when the door is broken down, the stench that emanates from this room is so overpowering that he can barely stay put.
Em Schulz: And what year was this?
Christine Schiefer: 1901.
Em Schulz: Okay. In my mind, things were already a little stinky in 1901 anyway, so like, they were used to a whole level of smell that we aren't. And then on top of that, this had to be freaking... Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And this was like very, very, very, very disturbing immediately. So he goes into the room, uh, and he has to, he has to leave right away when he is hit with the smell. And a few minutes later he finally, you know, was he pulled himself together, so to speak, and steeled himself and went back in. And according to a report written at the time, the superintendent said, "Blanche, whom we could not see was lying on a poor palate and covered with a blanket, all repugnant filthy across this palate, ran insects and vermin feeding on the feces, uh, on the unfortunate woman's bed. We tried to uncover her face, but she clung to the blanket, which covered her entirely shrieking loudly like a wild woman unable to stay in the room any longer due to its repulsive filthiness, we withdrew".
Em Schulz: Yeah. I can't imagine the, umm, like, just, just infection possibilities alone.
Christine Schiefer: It's... Yeah. Of, yeah. Shocking.
Em Schulz: Like if you have one cut or one sore and you're just living in a room full of rats and everything...
Christine Schiefer: Fecal matter and rotten food.
Em Schulz: And fecal matter.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So was, was the rest of the... This is like so not even like a, a thing that matters.
Christine Schiefer: No it's very important the rest of the house was fucking spotless.
Em Schulz: Okay. I was gonna say like where... How are rats getting in and out this place?
Christine Schiefer: No that's so relevant but it's actually mentioned multiple times in sources. Because this was not a case of oh they're just unhygienic and don't have the money. Like this was such a high proper woman with a whole team of maids, the rest of the house was fucking spotless. And like she herself uh Louise had full... Was fully presentable like societally presentable. You know just being at home was like fully made up, fully done, um. And so this...
Em Schulz: And also people are coming in and out all the time. If you have... If you're that big you've got people coming over for even meetings or business things.
Christine Schiefer: Tea or whatever the fuck. Yeah. Charity stuff. And so...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah this is basically like complete contrast to the rest of the house and to herself.
Em Schulz: Was she hi... Was she high up enough in the building that like no one would hear her if she like screamed for help or something?
Christine Schiefer: Not quite. So...
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah we'll get there. So later that day... Great question. Uh later that day the magistrate reported to examine Blanche and her living conditions himself. He walked in and he ordered the window to be open to let in light and fresh air.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Because the window had actually been boarded and padlocked shut and covered. So there was not a ray of light in that room.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The shutters had been closed for so long they had to be removed from their hinges in order to open. When the light shined in the magistrate could finally see what was going on in this room and observed Blanche herself. She was lying in bed completely naked. There were no clothes in the room. She was visibly dangerously malnourished and she was now 52 years old.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: When they took her in uh they realized who she was. Because at first they just got reports this mysterious anonymous letter saying "oh there's a woman being held captive in this house." And you know they go in they, they rescue this woman, they take her to the hospital and they're like...
Em Schulz: And then they realize she's like a royal or like a an upper, uh, upper crust lineage.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, they like put the dots together and go "Wait this is the daughter that was missing 25 years ago. That people just kind of... "
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: "Brushed off and moved on." Um and so now they're realizing that this woman has been in there since she's 20... In her 20s and now she's 52 and she weighs...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: 55 pounds.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's how malnourished she was. Her hair was waist length and matted as if it had not been brushed or washed in years.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: The magistrate later said "The unfortunate woman was lying completely naked on a rotten straw mattress. All around her was formed a sort of crust made from excrement, fragments of meat, vegetables, fish and rotten bread. We also saw oyster shells and bugs running across Mademoiselle Monnier's bed."
Em Schulz: I don't even know how you like, like lung infections alone of breathing that in. I'm like how do you... Like she...
Christine Schiefer: I mean yeah, I imagine her body has shut down by this point being fif... Not shut down completely obviously, but being 55 pounds you're not getting your nourish... Any sort of nourishment.
Em Schulz: But even like, but bugs all over her and like sleep, sleeping in bugs, sleeping in rats, sleeping in... And then just breathing all that stuff in and if... Man I like don't know what's like the worst part of it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's all very, very, very horrific. Um. The magistrate inspected the rest of the house and like I was saying everything was clean and organized. Um Madame Louise herself was carefully groomed. It seemed like Blanche alone was subject to like the filth and neglect, this was not a family issue, this was just for... A special torture was uh reserved for her. So on May 24th Marcel and Madame Louise, so Madame Louise and her son were arrested. And rumors surrounding Blanche's horrific imprisonment and neglect started swirling. Of course, especially with these people being like the most upstanding members in town, you know. And it was said that she had... The... So the story that people had started kind of telling and this is the most commonly told... This is the most commonly told version of story.
Christine Schiefer: Um. So it's unclear how much this is true versus just kind of like people adding on to the story. But it was said that she had fallen in love with an attorney who lived nearby, he was like 14 years older than her. And he had no money and no title and so her mom disapproved. And he was also a Protestant and Blanche came from a long line of noble Catholics and so when she refused to break off this relationship with this attorney the story goes that Madame Louise locked her away as punishment and said "I'll let you out when you agree you'll, you'll break off this, this relationship." And she refused.
Christine Schiefer: And so it's hard to say whether that's the truth. That's the story most people tell, it's even on the Wikipedia. But like some of the sources are, are... Have said you know, it's, it's unlikely you... He might not even really existed or if he did which I kind of believe he did exist, it might have embellished as part... To make it more like romantic.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Like oh she, she was locked away. Because it's hard to believe that after that long of being tortured that you wouldn't just say "Yeah sure, I'll break up with him." But the story is that she refused for 25 years to like...
Em Schulz: Because she loved him so much she would never deny their... Yeah, yeah I see.
Christine Schiefer: And I sort of feel like that and Saoirse wrote the same thing like I sort of feel like that takes away a little bit from the actual horrific story which is abuse and neglect which is not so romanticized you know. Um.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway that's just my thought on it. But that was pretty quickly the story that got picked up. Um which it may, it may well be true. I'm, I'm really not sure. Um some people claim...
Em Schulz: Well maybe... Go ahead sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no I would love to hear what you, your thoughts are.
Em Schulz: I, I was gonna say it, I feel like not only does it feel like a romantic story for the time but it could have also been like a noble story of like how proudly Catholic these people were and like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah true.
Em Schulz: Like it almost put them in a good light of like you must...
Christine Schiefer: And Catholics love like...
Em Schulz: Rely on your family.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Love a martyr story. I feel like, yeah. It, it feels like it's turned into this kind of romantic like anything for love when like that doesn't quite...
Em Schulz: Yeah it's okay but we're not paying attention to the fact that something evil happened too.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah or it's like it doesn't have to be such a dramatic reason for the evil. Like sometimes people just do evil things because they're bad people and they are harming... They like to harm people. I don't know. It, it... Yeah. So it's hard to say. I mean it could very well be true I, I really don't know. Um and most of the c... Most of the stories are told and that's how I always knew it until this research. Um that she was in love with this guy and her mom disapproved. Uh so but of course there's all sorts of versions you know um that maybe Blanche was pregnant out of wedlock and you know they sent the child away. But there's really nothing to prove that.
Christine Schiefer: Marcel however, her brother, who's only a year older than her had a totally different story. According to him when Blanche was young she began to experience what she believed were religious visions. And as she grew up she began to experience what may have been symptoms of psychosis. And although we don't know now it... I believe a couple of the sources mentioned that she was diagnosed with schizophrenia later in life so it's hard to say if that was something you know maybe triggered or exaggerated by this horrific abuse. Or if this was already part of her life and that's why, that's what led to the abuse.
Em Schulz: Could she have been... Again, everything we say in this episode does not justify anything bad that happened here, let's be Frank.
Christine Schiefer: We're just trying to understand it.
Em Schulz: But were they, were they like what... Maybe there... Was there uh... Do we find out if there was actually like a mental illness going on and like the family was too ashamed to send her to a facility.
Christine Schiefer: Well that's what I mean is like she was diagnosed with schizophrenia but I don't know if that was something that... We... There's no way to know like did she have that before she was locked away and that's why she was locked away. Or is like that's something that emerged while she imprisoned for 25 years you know like the schizophrenia is that something like as result of this or is that why they put her up there.
Em Schulz: I also don't know if I could even trust that she had any mental conditions like if, if... For all we know that like the the... Her parents paid a professional to say something so that way they would look better? I don't know, like I don't... I... Or do we know for sure she had an, an illness?
Christine Schiefer: No we don't know anything. I mean we know afterward yes she was diagnosed with all these things but like again it's hard to say is that a result of all this trauma or is that, is that like pre-existing? And that's... It's like chicken or the egg like is this what lead them to behave this way or is it the opposite? Yeah it's hard to know um but either way people think it's probably some symptoms of psychosis. If what her brother Marcel is telling is the truth 'cause he could be lying and saying "Oh yeah, like she was totally crazy so we locked her up there." And you know so it's hard to say if he's even telling the truth. But if he is what he describes sounds more like psychosis or you know schiz... Early onset schizophrenia.
Em Schulz: I would imagine... I mean something had to happen to her mentally. I mean think about like the people in in prison who go into solitary for like a week and like... You know like start feeling like they're losing themselves like...
Christine Schiefer: What... I guess I'm saying is afterwards she was definitely mentally ill, like she had severe.
Em Schulz: We just don't know if there was something before.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I just don't know like even though she was given a schizophrenia diagnosis after all this I don't know if that's like something that's started when she was 20 and that's why they put her up there. Or if that was a result of being locked away for... In solitary for 25... You know it's like I, I... Nobody really knows how truthful this storyline is you know but it makes sense to me like okay they, they... She was uh kind of not acting like a proper woman should act and had some sort of fits or hallucinations and her family was like "Well that's... That can't be, that can't be. So we're gonna lock her away in a closet essentially." Yeah apparently the room was about the size of... Smaller than like an office cubicle. That was how time it was.
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Like she was basically just enough room to lay down.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah it's really, really horrific. And so Marcel claimed "Oh no it's not about a love story" but when Blanche was young she began to experience what she believed were religious visions and what we now think may have been psychosis. And the doctors who treated Blanche told her family that she was "mad" and she always would be. Essentially like there's no treating this is what they were told. Like this is just how she is and she's "mad" and it's incurable sorry. And that...
Em Schulz: It's so wild that they couldn't just like make sure she like took a bath and like...
Christine Schiefer: No that's the thing it's like it's... Exactly. It ends up like not at all being about this it ends up being like... It doesn't even matter why they do it right it just...
Em Schulz: It's like if you felt like for her safety she needed to be locked up somewhere, okay. But like no social interaction, no food.
Christine Schiefer: Those arguments don't hold weight at all to me, I totally agree.
Em Schulz: Like a bed that's not rotting and full of rats.
Christine Schiefer: You can't show me that and say "Oh no this is for her own good." Like what are you talking about. Um. And so the doctors said like "this is incurable" and so Charles her father before he passed decided the only thing they could do was lock Blanche in a room to hide her away. And according to Marcel she sometimes stood naked in front of the window but also they didn't give her clothes so yeah no shit she's standing naked. And so they started padlocking the window closed. And Marcel testified that he really wanted to move Blanche to what he referred to as a nursing home. I mean imagine like a psychiatric hospital in the late 1800s right. Um but even so like they were so wealthy they could have provided her with a staff, they could have sent her to like a fancy place.
Em Schulz: They could have literally given her her own home, like her own facility or something with her own...
Christine Schiefer: And just like paid for her nurses, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah they could have paid for a current facility to clear out so they could have the entire thing if they wanted.
Christine Schiefer: No but Charles did not want his child to be mentally ill or you know different.
Em Schulz: Yeah it feels like this is, this is more like a a insecurity about social status that something's wrong with them or something.
Christine Schiefer: That's at least the story Marcel is pitching, like "Listen I didn't want it to be this way but my parents did." And it's like okay but you're an adult and... Anyway. Um so yeah it doesn't really make sense like "oh well this is for her own good" because they had the money to really provide for her. But Charles refused because like he didn't want this reflected on, poorly on his family. And so when he died Madame Louise insisted on upholding her dead husband's wishes and Marcel claimed that no matter how much he argued with his mother she refused to consider moving Blanche elsewhere. And investigators pretty much put together that she was ashamed that Blanche was ill and she would rather just hide her daughter away like to, to near death uh then reveal... Rather than reveal her family's secret.
Em Schulz: Was there uh like... Did her siblings like did her brother... Like did they at least talk through the door to each other? And did he... Like could she say like "Could you go tell mom I need more fucking bread please?"
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. No. I think she was just put away. And every now and then...
Em Schulz: So I made a lot of jokes about this fucking metal but now I'm like why wasn't the maid at least knocking on the door being like "Are you okay" or like taking her food?
Christine Schiefer: Because she's discreet she got a metal for 40 years of not spreading a fucking single gossip.
Em Schulz: Yeah but I mean even even still like I... I'm, I'm surprised nobody in the house at least knocked on the door every now and then and be like "Are you alive?"
Christine Schiefer: I mean they might have, I don't know I just... I don't know if who would know that.
Em Schulz: Who was, who was bringing her food? When she would eat.
Christine Schiefer: I assume a servant or a maid would just toss it in is what I guess but I don't know. Um. She was barely... She was "sane" when she was found but she was like nonverbal for a long time. You know like if you haven't spoken to anybody in 25 years presumably yeah you're gonna be like shell shocked and probably not verbal for awhile. Um. But yeah so although Marcel claimed he had liked argued on her behalf he was also a grownup and should have fucking interceded and done something instead of like helping his mom cover up this horrible, horrible thing. For like just torturing his little sister. It really... It's disturbing to me. He also testified that he visited Blanche frequently and read to her uh and he said "oh the smell that never bothered me and uh because my eyesight is impaired I couldn't really see how bad it was in there so I just didn't know." It's like yeah right.
Christine Schiefer: And investigators were like "oh your eyesight's bad that's weird 'cause I know you love to paint watercolor." And he goes "Hey well seeing landscapes and trees is a totally different thing." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah you, you just don't know enough, enough about eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah sorry you don't know enough about art or eyes. So you wouldn't understand. Um.
Em Schulz: Yeah and I'm pretty sure someone of high society at the time would have had a problem with the smell.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the fact that the investigator had to leave and come back because he was so shaken by the smell alone but whatever. Um he said that his family never did anything against Blanche's will or her wishes she wanted all that. And he just said "oh we did all this because it's what she wanted." And he wanted to avoid upsetting her and causing a scene. Uh she didn't want a window so they boarded up for her. I'm like this is crazy talk.
Em Schulz: Which like if you're whole thing is maybe she's mentally ill then why are you listening to her demands that she like she... If she's so sick that you think she is not of sound mind and and a danger to herself then why are you listening to that.
Christine Schiefer: You're like great idea we won't feed you or open a window.
Em Schulz: And like I don't know what like the rules were back in the day in a in a home of society. But like when I was a little kid you better believe I was snooping though everyone's fucking house. How did not like... How did a little kid not like walk by the room and go "Oh my God that smells pretty bad what's going on in there?" Or like hear a sound or something.
Christine Schiefer: I think it was probably because it was hidden away on the third floor. They could barely see this door. It was, I'm telling you like the size of a small walk in closet. So it's like just tucked away and nobody would be up there. You know I'm assuming that would be "servants quarters" right like the third story. Um. And the servants clearly knew about it so they probably just were like "well that's Blanche's room." I don't know. It's, it's, it's horrifying. So he basically claimed well she wanted it to be this way and we didn't wanna... I mean going off what you said like he's explanation for why they just did what she said is because he's like "well we didn't want her to like freak out and cause a scene and if we did something against her wishes she would start having fits and it would... " He's like, "So we just wanted to keep the peace so we did what she wanted." I don't believe it.
Christine Schiefer: Um, however, like I kind of alluded to when you asked earlier if there were testimonies from people over the years who had heard Blanche during this 25 years in the attic bedroom. Some witnesses had heard someone screaming for freedom, people on the street sometimes heard her screaming from her bedroom. And one witness heard her cry "What have I done to be locked up? I don't deserve this horrible torture. God must not exist then to let his creature suffer in this way and no one to come to my rescue." And it's just really horrific because people would get snippets and wonder and then nothing would be done and nobody would find anything. And you didn't know where it was coming from. But people definitely heard her screaming over the years.
Christine Schiefer: She also wrote on her walls. One passage that was still legible during the investigation read "one must live and die in prison all one's life." And Marcel said "Oh the... " He said the inscriptions on the walls were so unimportant that he never read them.
Em Schulz: Well how could he he doesn't have good eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Good point. He said "All these screams had no meaning. In my sister's mouth these words have no value. She only said them at moments of crisis and madness. She never called for help or demanded her freedom in front of me."
Em Schulz: Well she was so busy being locked up she never said it in front of me so I...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. She never said she didn't wanna be locked away forever. Like what?
Em Schulz: I mean I was downstairs holding my ears and closing my eyes so I would never hear it if she did say something but she didn't say it.
Christine Schiefer: But that's irrelevant.
Em Schulz: And also like I, I... It'd be one thing if he was like a toddler when this happened and like he grew up hearing like she's evil or something. But if he's a year older than her and she got locked away at like 25 he was almost 30. And he was...
Christine Schiefer: He was like already, I'm sure, married or getting married and having his like eldest son dream child ways. You know. And just let it, let it go, let it be that way. It's horrific. So that's what he kept pushing like the story that Blanche was this incoherent mad woman who never truly desired freedom, never desired clean sheets, clean hair, hygiene, food. He said she even refused to be exposed to sunlight which is why for her preference they took the window out, covered the window up. And when Blanche was bathed at the hospital the staff had a different view because they shaved her hair, they put her in new clothes, they cleaned her, bathed her, they sat her by a window where the sun was streaming in and she just stared out the window and whispered how lovely it is. It's like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You can't fucking tell me that you did this because she wanted it. Like that's the wildest thing to me.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And when questioned about this Marcel her bother said, "oh she must have been temporarily shocked out of her madness, that's all. But don't worry she'll get back to it." It's like so blatantly cruel and abusive. But Madame Louise said that Blanche was allowed to go anywhere in the house, she had free reign but she preferred to stay not only in her room but in her bed for 25 years. And she just never had a desire to leave so that's why they left her there.
Christine Schiefer: And if that is the case then she's clearly sick and you need to get her help, she's your child. She's another human like... Okay, anyway.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. When the investigators told Madame Louise that her maids claimed that they sometimes asked permission to bath Blanche and clean her bedding and Louise said "No, you are not allowed to clean her bedding or wash her hair." Like the maids were trying to help in some instances. And she said no. And the investigator said "That's what the maids told us that you didn't let them clean her." She said to investigators that her maids were liars and hussies.
Em Schulz: Oh my. Also like uh yeah and this is such an obvious thing to say now. But just a reminder that like this absolutely takes away any credibility there was of like all the generous things she was g... That she was doing for society. It's like you, you clearly don't care about other people.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah there's no empathy there. I mean...
Em Schulz: You're just doing it for status.
Christine Schiefer: It's just rid... That's kind of why I was trying to say like she was like just the top tier like social hierarchy. Not necess... Like a queen bee type you know like... Her fall from grace was gonna be painful.
Em Schulz: The way that this probably hit every fucking newspaper.
Christine Schiefer: Oh imagine.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine coming to work the next morning being like "did you guys hear?" And they say "hear what?" And you're like "I'm about to reveal the wildest... "
Em Schulz: Everyone shoving their, their copy of the paper in into their face.
Christine Schiefer: I mean Jesus Christ this would be such a... Especially in a small town like what a... I mean it's not that small of a town but you know in small circles like theses high society circles. Um wow. Okay. So Madame Louise and Marcel continually insisted that it was Blanche's instincts to prefer the dark, to use foul language, to make messes and to avoid eating. But the nurses and nuns who cared for her in hospital found her quite the opposite. They described her as gentle, delicate. They even described her using words like childlike and they said she just truly enjoyed her meals. And she started rapidly gaining weight when she arrived at the hospital, which is just so, so fucking sad. Like for 25 years...
Em Schulz: It was so possible the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yeah. She hasn't had plain nutrition in 25 years. They eventually learn that they could leave Blanche alone while the staff cared for other patients and she... Even though her family kept warning everybody that she was gonna freak out and cause this huge scene and a mess she never did. And when she first arrived at the hospital, she did once relieve herself in her bed and clothes. But when they taught her how to use a chamber pot again she was thrilled and said "Thank goodness that I have access to this now." Because she was just living in her own filth.
Em Schulz: Also like... She was probably fucking petrified of saying anything wrong and immediately having to go away again. So like on top of her just being a good person like the last thing she's gonna do right now is cause a stir. Like I mean... And also after like relieving herself on herself as a... You know as someone who has only been able to do that for the last 20 years she probably like lost muscle memory to even hold it at that point.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly she had forgotten how to use a chamber pot, like they really had to say "hey here, this is here for you now." But I will also kind of do devil's advocate of what you said like if you were this traumatized and like... If you did have a mental illness you might show up and make a huge scene and tear shit up you know like who knows... Like, like...
Em Schulz: That's, that's a good point. Yeah like it's so so overstimulating.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah like I don't know how I would even deal with this without this a-alleged or potential schizophrenia situation like even the most "sane" person at the time I imagine would... You couldn't predict how they would react.
Em Schulz: I mean I also though the way I already know how it would go if, if I were in a situation that was... Where I was being told that like I was never docile enough or whatever and then I was locked away... I mean I can't obviously fathom that. But I imagine I would just be crying nonstop out of either relief that it's maybe over or fear that what if it's not? But then also joy that I'm seeing this. But, but then again then I would be diagnosed uh with hysteria or something so I would just be crying. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: So all bets are off. Like how does anyone know what to do in the situation like people caring for her, her herself like how does anyone know like what to do in this situation? I feel like they're just... It's all just so shocking and she probably feels like she's in an alternate dimension all of the sudden. Like she wrote on her wall "one must live in die in prison one's whole life." So she clearly has resigned herself to this.
Em Schulz: I also wonder socially like... 'cause I like to think oh my God somebody it just went through this obviously I'm going to help them. But if you're... What if you're... This is such a micro problem. But imagine if you're someone who's trying to help her but you find out that your, your own career is in jeopardy or something. Like she could pull the, pull the purse strings in some way and hurt you for for helping save her or take care of her. You know, I feel like that would be one of my first thoughts if I was like a a nurse taking care of her. I'd be like "oh what if because we're helping her you know now the family is going to... Not that they've been found out they're gonna stop funding the hospital or something."
Christine Schiefer: I think the nuns and stuff were like "I don't care." I mean I don't know. I... And especially because, especially because both of them are in jail now. Like it doesn't mean they can't have an affect but don't think their power is that impressive anymore to people. Like I don't think the hospital's gonna take their money anymore. You know once they been...
Em Schulz: True. I just... I would be so paranoid about like the like the family of the town knowing that like what's gonna happen if they find out we wanna... But yeah you're totally right they're already in prison so whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I think they're not even a blip on the radar at this point. Um. So yeah, they, they're like taking care of her and saying "she's just childlike, she's delicate, she loves to eat, she's gaining weight rapidly, she's just so happy to be free and and be you know calm and have sun shine and have fresh clothes." And so they did not experience her the way that Marcel kept like warning you know warning the nurses and the nuns that she would act. And although her mother and brother kept saying well Blanche would be naked and standing in the window that way hospital staff observed that she was actually extremely modest, probably from this childhood religious ambition she had. And she even wore often extra clothing to cover herself up. She even put a scarf over her head, like around her head. And you know it makes me think like... It seemed like she didn't have clothing in her room so it's like now of course she wants to be covered up. Like she hasn't been for 25 years.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. And also like not even warm because the the blanket she was using was just riddled with disease and rotting away and... I mean she's she's never...
Christine Schiefer: Like the comforts are gone.
Em Schulz: And, and ha... And half her life she's never known a single comfort.
Christine Schiefer: Comfort, yeah. Yeah. And so it seemed clear to her care team that whatever Blanche's family was saying that Blanche had done to herself was actually something her family had done to her. And she likely had stopped using the bathroom because she had no access to a toilet. She stopped bathing because she wasn't allowed to, she stopped eating because she wasn't given food. And so in the hospital, suddenly her condition improved significantly, and the staff really liked her. And Marcel's and Madame Louise's defenders including a psychiatrist insisted that Blanche was insane and feeble minded. But the nurses and nuns were like "mm, no. Sorry she's not." Um it also seemed to be true that Blanche did exhibit erratic behavior in which she would shout, scream, break things. But like again that's not surprising to me that somebody who'd gone through that would have erratic behavior. Um but a priest along with investigators on the case also made the excellent point that who cares if she did anything erratic that does not mean she deserved 25 years... Like even if they're right and she had had been "unwell and insane" or whatever words they used that doesn't mean she should have been locked away like that for 25 years.
Em Schulz: She's still a person.
Christine Schiefer: So the argument is mute. Yeah exactly. And it's still... In fact some could argue it's even worse if she needs your help so badly because she's ill and you're putting her through this...
Em Schulz: Right now she's even deteriorating even faster without any support. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Without any support. I mean that's... So anyway. It's just like at the end of the day it doesn't even matter why they were claiming that they did this it's just bad no matter what. But yeah, like I said, this same priest said "Blanche's vulnerability made the neglect that much more egregious." And that especially because they had this responsibility, they had the funds, they had the means to care for her and they just didn't, you know. Um. They also believed that because she was so mild mannered in the hospital, all this bad behavior her family reported if it was true at all was probably just caused by the stress of living like that. So any like fits she might have had it's like well yeah you locked her in a closet. So even if that's true which it might just be Marcel making shit up then of course she did, of course she reacted negatively when you locked her away for decades.
Christine Schiefer: But in any case, Blanche was transported to a hospital in May um and she was photographed while there. Uh and the photographs are still online. They're very disturbing. Um she's deeply emaciated she's 55 pounds. Her hair is you know falling out, falling apart. It's, it's very, very disturbing. So I just wanna warn everyone if you're gonna look it up. Um when this picture hit newspapers, people flipped.
Em Schulz: I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: There were angry crowds gathering outside of Madame Louise's jail cell, shouting, demanding justice for Blanche. And Madame Louise had actually been ill for some time and the stress...
Em Schulz: Was she? Was she?
Christine Schiefer: I know. And the stress was getting to her okay so will you be a little bit empathetic, maybe, for a minute?
Em Schulz: I'm just saying at... For her to be sick at the beginning of this story you know...
Christine Schiefer: She's so full of it, yeah. She asked to be released from jail awaiting her trial because the stress... She couldn't take the stress. Uh and they did not release her from jail and she ended up actually having a heart attack two weeks after her arrest because of the up-uproar.
Em Schulz: All the stress of being found out she knew she was in trouble.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. You knew you were caught. And so you had a heart attack because of the stress of that.
Em Schulz: But the nerve of her, how long was she actually in prison for?
Christine Schiefer: 13 days, I think. 13 to 14.
Em Schulz: And she was, and she was just so inconvenienced and uncomfortable in 13 days, but the 25 years of what she did to her.
Christine Schiefer: That's such a good point. Well wait till you hear what happened to Marcel.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So now she's, she's, she's passed away the mother and Marcel is now the only one left to face trial. Right. So that began October 7th, 1901, and the court heard testimonies from staff in the Monnier household. And it seemed that caring for Blanche had actually started off pretty well. Um, she was attended to by an experienced nurse named Marie Fazy. And testimonies about Marie and her professionalism as a nurse were varied. Some said that she was a dotting and skilled nurse who cared for Blanche so well, that uh, sometimes Blanche was well enough to get downstairs, see her family, play the piano. But according to these same testimonies, it was only when this nurse died in 1896 and Madam Louise refused to hire another skilled nurse with proper training that suddenly Blanche deteriorated. And she kind of fell into this horribly desperate, vulnerable situation. It was said that Madam Louise repeatedly hired young maids without medical and psychiatric training who were frightened by Blanche, especially when Blanche became agitated and like broke things or tore her clothes off.
Christine Schiefer: And none of the maids ever stayed for very long, according to these testimonies. And Madam Louise herself did not seem interested in any care for Blanche, like didn't seem interested in hiring anybody or caring for her herself. So just let her deteriorate up there. But others said that this nurse, Marie Fazy actually drank in excess and did not care for Blanche well as everyone was claiming. And that this whole time Blanche was in this desperate state, uh, with no care. So it's like, it varies like how badly [laughter] she was mistreated in the 25 years. But either way.
Em Schulz: Pretty darn.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Pretty darn.
Em Schulz: Pretty darn.
Christine Schiefer: And Blanche has had last been seen by a doctor in 1896, which was actually five years before her discovery. Um, and there was like, no, nothing came out of that, or nothing came from that. And, uh, so the family had basically just abandoned any effort to get her well or take care of her at all. Um, sometimes her niece, Marie Dolores would come over and, and ask after Blanche and how she was doing. And according to Marie Dolores, her grandmother would always just say, "oh, she's fine."
Em Schulz: It's not even like you can actually lock someone up and forget about them, because every single person is going to ask you how your daughter is.
Christine Schiefer: How's your daughter? That's mysteriously in Canada, maybe. Yeah.
Em Schulz: For 25 years, someone had to...
Christine Schiefer: And the fact that she's claiming, "Oh, she's fine."It's like, "Okay, well, what else is up with her? I haven't seen her in decades. Like, any news?"
Em Schulz: I mean, like, I understand that, like, it was a different time and that, like, she could have really just... And also, it's a totally different, like, wealth class where, like, maybe you really do just go away and never come home. But if I had a friend who had a kid, like, if I, if the last time I saw Leona was 25 years ago, I'd be like, "Where is she?"
Christine Schiefer: I said "oh she's just somewhere."
Em Schulz: Like, "can I have a picture of her? Yeah. Can I see a picture? Like, is she, like, where does... You must know something about her."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And that's why, like, that the servant staff being so discreet, right is, like, such an icky thing now. It's like they were forced to keep this secret.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And if I... Even if I were a friend of the family, I would almost be offended that, like, if the next time I see Leona, she's 29 or whatever, I'd be like, "What's going on? Why don't you want me to know what... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. There's something happening, either with me, with you, with your child. There's something going on.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I would take it as a personal attack. Eventually, I'd be like, "Why don't you want to share your family with me?"
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Nope. People did not... Did not pick up on it. Um, so she was fine. That's what she told people. And all that was truly clear in the end, which is still a lot of... There are a lot of unanswered questions, is that when Blanche was rescued in 1901, she was in truly, truly deplorable conditions that no person, whether they, "wanted that way" or not, should be subjected to this. Sorry, there's no excuse. And nothing she might have done, any psychiatric diagnosis could have justified this. Like you were saying, a prison cell is a safer, cleaner, happier place to be than this, like, family-made prison that they created. And just the amount of filth and neglect and, I mean, imagine she probably got sick all the time, like with, you know, infections, colds. I mean, imagine how miserable that life would be. It's it's terrible. So whether it's like a week or 25 years, like, it's just unacceptable on, on every count. And Marcel, the brother, right, he's the only one remaining to be put on trial. And after his trial, he's sentenced to 15 months in prison. But he's a lawyer and very rich.
Christine Schiefer: And his lawyers immediately appeal, arguing that Blanche was legally their mother's responsibility, not Marcel's. And Marcel had no obligation to intervene with his sister's situation. And the appeal was granted, and Marcel faced no consequences.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: And the public was outraged. But there's not much they can do. So Blanche spent the final 12 years of her life in a hospital where she was reportedly well-cared for and content. She told the staff she did not want to see her brother ever again, and she did not want to return to her home ever again.
Em Schulz: Fair enough.
Christine Schiefer: And she and Marcel both died in 1913, um relatively young. I would say they were probably in their 60s. Uh. Today though, the truth of Blanche's story is rarely told. I think it's a lot of it is. And we don't even know what's the real truth in a lot of ways, um, unfortunately, the only thing we know is how horrible this mistreatment was. Um, but if you google Blanche Monnier, there are often before and after pictures. Like this picture of this really beautiful, like, put-together Victorian woman with this, like, very graceful hair. Those are not Blanche Monnier, even though every article claims that's, like, before. But that's not a picture of her. It's like some other.
Em Schulz: Are there any pictures of her before? It seems like she was never loved...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so.
Em Schulz: Even, even before she got put away, so.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think there are any, like, not online at least, or not easily accessible.
Em Schulz: Was there, was there even a... Like, a moment that got announced of, like, the day she got locked in and never came out, 'cause I have a feeling this room was, like, a very long, timeout place that she used to go. And eventually her mom was like, actually, "I'm just not going to let you out this time."
Christine Schiefer: No, there was actually, there was an article I read where that mentioned that she went out for some dinner, some social dinner. She ended up getting a fever. Like, she got sick and got a fever. And that social outing was the last time she was ever seen outside the house. So whether or not, you know, it's unclear whether or not she was just inside. And, like, for the first few years, maybe she could roam the house freely, but she did not leave the house after that event.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, this beautiful young woman, the before picture that you might be picturing like, that I am picturing, because I've seen it so many times, is not actually uh Blanche Monnier. There's two that go around. Neither of them are her. Um, so a lot of this is, like, sensationalized about, like, her saying she would... Oh, and the other part about the guy. Remember the lawyer that she had fallen in love with who didn't have much money and her mother didn't approve? So that story goes that she wouldn't break off the relationship or the engagement. And her mother said, "I won't let you out until you do."
Christine Schiefer: And then the man actually ended up dying. If it is the same man, ended up dying 15, 10 to 15 years, I forget which, which direction. Before she was released, before she was discovered. And so even when he was dead, her mom was like, "oh, will you break off the engagement?" No. Even knowing that he was dead.
Em Schulz: Mm. That's extra sick.
Em Schulz: So it's like, at that point, you just don't want this.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Well, because at that point, she's betrayed the family. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and now she gets out. What do you, what do you do to explain this?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I, I do wonder if the guy was real, because I feel like if she magically went missing, he would cause a fuss in town.
Christine Schiefer: Well so the, the story is that, is that, like, they were kind of starting to get to know each other. They really liked each other. And then uh the mom was just like, "oh, she, she went away." You know, because, I mean, it was very obvious the mom did not approve of him. So it's, like, pretty easy to believe that, like, her mom just said, "nope, not allowed. And she's like, okay...
Em Schulz: Go somewhere else.
Christine Schiefer: I was shipped off to America for a few years, or and then he, he passed away during the time of her imprisonment. So we don't really know if that's the true story, but that's usually the one that's told. Um. But as Saoirse made such a good point of here, the true story is far less romantic, but uh more common. You know, a disabled woman um, in this, especially in this, that time, um and even today, occasionally was neglected and abused because of family shame and pride. And uh so that's disturbing in and of itself. And that is the story of Blanche Monni... Blanche Monnier.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible.
Em Schulz: Definitely. Um, I mean, awful, but also very captivating in that like uh there's, there's not a, a boring part to that story that's all very...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, talk about, um, what's the phrase I was gonna say? Um.
Em Schulz: It starts very um, high society gossip girl, and then it ends with like just torment and...
Christine Schiefer: Just like, abuse. It's, yeah.
Em Schulz: Everything terrible.
Christine Schiefer: And, like, I see why people kind of make it, like, more glamorous. Like, she did this for love, and it's like, no, she didn't do it at all. Nothing she did is...
Em Schulz: It's one of those revisionist histories. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Exactly. And it's spinning it. And I... Box of Oddities did this a long time ago, and I re-listened to it recently. And I, I like the way she put it of, like, this is they're talking about her so actively, like as if she's the cause, like she did something that triggered the situation, when in reality, she didn't do anything. Her parents, or her mother and father and brother, her whole family abused and neglected her. And it doesn't matter what she did or said or... That's irrelevant. It's like, you know when a woman's sexually assaulted and you're like, well, you know, she was wearing a really short skirt. You know, it's like, that's not the point. It shouldn't matter. She should be able to walk down the street naked for all I care. It doesn't give you the right to behave this way or treat somebody this way. So, yeah, I, I kind of like that we got a little more detail on the real history of it, um even though it's like less, less sensational and just sadder. But that's how I think a lot of these stories are, so.
Em Schulz: Wow. Well, good telling it.
Christine Schiefer: Well Thank you. This was quite an episode. Uh. Wow, that's a long one Jesus.
Em Schulz: Wow. A long one. Uh. Okay. We won't keep people any longer than that, unless you are part of Patreon and you like to listen to us talk even longer than this, and you can head over to our After Hours, After Dark. What is it now?
Christine Schiefer: After Dark.
Em Schulz: After Dark. And uh you can hear us ramble about something that is unscripted, not that this is fully scripted. But uh this, the other part on behind Patreon has uh no rules.
Christine Schiefer: No rules. So we usually talk about something uh you know, true crime or paranormal Usually. I will say, sometimes we go off the rails and do a personality quiz. But.
Em Schulz: Sometimes we just go on Zillow and look at houses.
Christine Schiefer: Houses. But sometimes we read all the places and houses where you could find buried treasure. So you know we have a lot of fun over there. [laughter]
Em Schulz: All right, well, head over there if you want to hear more of this, and otherwise, we'll see you next week. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
