E383 Pseudo Armchair Ear Experts and Flower Pot London Fogs

TOPICS: OGDEN UNION STATION, THE MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER BY JODI ARIAS


Welcome to episode 383, if you learn anything from us today, don't eat 11 of anything all in a row! This week Em fulfills one of Christine's step-dad dreams when they cover the train-related ghosts of Ogden Union Station. Then Christine covers a doozy of a story she's so sure she's covered before but somehow hasn't... the murder of Travis Alexander by Jodi Arias. And, don't worry, we'll get that hair curled up in Em's ear out if Tik Tok has anything to say about it... and that's why we drink!If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is: 800-799-7233


Transcript

[music]

Em Schulz: Welcome to And That's Why We Drink starring Em Shultz and apparently Harry Potter again with these silly little glasses, and Harry Potter has an announcement because...

Christine Schiefer: What?

Em Schulz: Well you said you have a lot to discuss. Are you okay?

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't really have... I mean, I don't know, I just meant... You said you were excited to see me and I was like...

Em Schulz: Oh.

Christine Schiefer: Yes, we have to catch up on life.

Em Schulz: Oh I see.

Christine Schiefer: I do not have an announcement. I do not have an announcement.

Em Schulz: Can you, can you make up an announcement since I did the whole intro?

Christine Schiefer: I mean, I can say something like an announcement. Could you ask me why I drink?

Em Schulz: Yeah umm Christine, for the, for the, for the, for the million dollar jackpot, Why do you drink?

Christine Schiefer: Em, my body is falling apart, I'm falling apart, I'm falling apart.

Em Schulz: Now? You've been falling apart, but is there a new part of you that's melting off of you?

Christine Schiefer: I, I suddenly have adult-onset eczema, which like you've seen my little, my little thing.

Em Schulz: Is that what it is?

Christine Schiefer: Yes, I think so, because it's all of a sudden all over me, it's in my ears...

Em Schulz: Ears.

Christine Schiefer: It's behind my knees, it's under my arms and in my armpits, it's in my elbows, it's in my...

Em Schulz: It's only in the worst spots. Yuck.

Christine Schiefer: Well, that's what eczema.

[overlapping conversation]

Em Schulz: Your fucking leg?

Christine Schiefer: No, apparently eczema goes on the creases of your skin, and that's why it sucks so bad.

Em Schulz: Oh.

Christine Schiefer: And I was just in San Francisco going wedding dress shopping with my friend and her fiance, Maddie was like, oh, you have eczema too, and pointed at my arm and I went "Is that what this is?"

Em Schulz: Gasp.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Damn. You know what...

Christine Schiefer: And then I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. So umm anyway, I woke up the day after. I hadn't... I took a red eye home, barely slept, got home, woke up the next day, my whole body, like I was convinced I had COVID, like my whole body was just swollen, every joint hurt, like my, and it's just this inflammation and I found out eczema is also an inflammatory thing and is like stress-related and an immune system thing, which is what Crohn's is, so now I'm like, it's like doubling down...

Em Schulz: Oh at least now it makes kinda sense. At least it makes sense.

Christine Schiefer: It does. It does. At least I know, but now I have to like go get all these... Like I have to get all these allergy tests. I've never been allergic to anything, and now, it's like now I have to figure out what the hell is making my body like break out in hives all over the place, I can barely like move my fingers 'cause they're so swollen, like all my joints.

Em Schulz: Oh Christine.

Christine Schiefer: And like I'm just, I just feel like I'm falling apart into a million pieces. Umm.

Em Schulz: We're not paying enough attention to the fact that someone just fully outed you, and that was just what... Oh I have that too, that...

Christine Schiefer: What?

Em Schulz: Isn't that what uh your friend's... Your friend said of like, oh, "I have eczema too". And that's how you're finding out?

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, yeah. She literally goes, "Oh, is that... Is that... You have eczema?" And I went... She goes, "Oh yeah, it's all in the creases," and I went, oh my fucking god.

Em Schulz: What a... What a bold behavior though, 'cause I feel like I... I feel like I just learned like you just don't talk about this.

Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, I think I was probably like itching my arm and being like, I think I have some weird rash, and she was like, that's eczema, it's in your elbow, see your doctor, and I was like, okay. I mean, listen, I'm all about people helping me figure out what the fuck is going on. Otherwise, I'm just gonna scratch myself to death.

Em Schulz: Today...

Christine Schiefer: The only time as a kid... Like so I had this elbow thing as a kid, right here, like I would get this rash right on my left elbow, and it was only when I ate too much red food coloring or one time I ate 11 oranges and then it happened.

Em Schulz: Interesting. So orange food coloring it seems.

Christine Schiefer: Well, maybe it's red orange, maybe it's like citrus, I don't really know, or maybe I just shouldn't eat 11 of anything in a row. Umm but the point is, I don't know what the fuck is going on. I'm convinced, I'm convinced it's gonna be like either red wine, coffee or like my weed gummies like I guarantee it's something in one of these they're gonna be like...

Em Schulz: That you need.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're gonna be like, stop taking that, it's gonna destroy you. So you're gonna be hearing more of why I drink or don't drink in the coming months. Umm, oh and guess what? I called the doctor. No, I didn't. I emailed the doctor on my portal. Who am I kidding? And I said, hey, I need an appointment, and they said, okay, great. We've got you scheduled for June 4th. And I went, cool, that's my birthday. Yay. So that day, the birthday is my 33rd, it's gonna be full of being poked with needles and all these allergen tests, and it'll be...

Em Schulz: I've always wanted to know somebody who did an allergy test, though so...

Christine Schiefer: Oh I did one.

Em Schulz: I'm glad you can report to me.

Christine Schiefer: I did one as a kid and all it said was dust and mold, uh and it wasn't for skin issues, it was like for like sinus stuff, so it was dust and mold and now, I don't know what. Fucking...

Em Schulz: Don't they have to do the thing where they like stab you with 50 needles all at once?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they put it all down your back, and then they like see what you react to. It was a very alarming experience as like a 12-year-old...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Umm. But yeah, I'm doing that again, and I'm going to see a dermatologist. Oh, and my PCOS is back. It's like my whole body just went. 'Cause I, I literally was just telling Rene, you know I was diagnosed with PCOS, but I feel like it's really mild or like really... Nothing really ever happens. Wham! Like everything.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: And I don't know if it's 'cause I'm not sleeping much, like I'm on all these red eyes, they say of course stress triggers it. I don't know, but I just feel like I'm falling apart.

Em Schulz: I wonder if there's... I feel like there's also something to be said about like the, the mental block of like not knowing about it, and then...

Christine Schiefer: Yes.

Em Schulz: Once you've accepted it in your body, then it's worse or something. I don't know how true that is. I feel like that's a little woo woo, but...

Christine Schiefer: It's like thank you for noticing me. Well, okay, and the other thing I notice, 'cause of course I'm on Reddit looking at people's experience with adult onset eczema, 'cause it's usually you have it from childhood and 'cause I'm like, oh my... That's how I fucking popped my ear drum, by the way, because my ears have been so goddamn itchy that I kept scratching them and that's how I popped my fucking ear drum, so it's like... Anyway, it just feels like every little thing...

Em Schulz: You know? Well, that freaks me out 'cause I, I have one real itchy ear all the way on the inside, and that's why I love my Q-tips, which I know is bad, don't say anything to me. Shoot me in the face. I don't even care, okay, here's the situation though about my ears.

Christine Schiefer: Well, don't do that. Let's start with that, but okay, go ahead.

Em Schulz: Here's, here's the situation with these ears, because it makes me... Now, that you mention it, we have to talk about my ears. I wanna rip them off, they're so itchy. So now you're freaking me out that maybe I have eczema, but here's the situation. I also have really weird... This is one of Allison's like favorite things to do, uh, is tweeze these off of me. I have weird like three inch long hairs, like in random parts of my body.

Christine Schiefer: Woah. Just popping out?

Em Schulz: I have one on my arm... I have one on my arm. And they grow like a weed. Like I won't have it and then the next day I have it, and so it's like this fucking long on my arm. I have one behind my ear, that Allison loves to check behind my ear and like rip that shit out.

Christine Schiefer: And it goes in the same spots?

Em Schulz: All the time. It's always in the same spot...

Christine Schiefer: You know I have one...

Em Schulz: And so Allison likes to check my ear hair, and so, and, but I think I literally, I've been thinking the one in, in my ear that hurts so much.

Christine Schiefer: And you have to get a fucking thing from TikTok, the camera.

Em Schulz: I really think it's just one really long hair...

Christine Schiefer: Yes, just go...

Em Schulz: Just spiraled around like a cobweb.

Christine Schiefer: Eww!

Em Schulz: It really just freaks me. I know!

Christine Schiefer: And the more you put a Q-tip in there, it's gonna press it down. You know?

Em Schulz: No, I keep thinking I'll like, I'll like accidentally tug it out and then...

Christine Schiefer: No, you can't do that with a Q-tip. You gotta get in there with like a... You gotta get one of these... When you come visit, I'll get a new sterilized thing and we can go look in in your ear.

Em Schulz: That'll be good.

Christine Schiefer: Doesn't that sound fun?

Em Schulz: That does sound fun.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: I really also but if you find a hair in there, I'm not gonna be able to rest, I'm gonna make you or Blaise...

Christine Schiefer: Oh no. I have... It has attachments...

Em Schulz: Put tweezers in there.

Christine Schiefer: And it has attachments, that's what I'm saying, you could get stuff out of there.

Em Schulz: Oh thank God.

Christine Schiefer: Yes, we're gonna find out. I'm gonna heal you. And then you're gonna tell me... And then you're gonna tell me...

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Like you have... Thank you.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Alecadabrazoo. I don't know how the...

[laughter]

Em Schulz: No, I... It's really, like I get so itchy. I literally get in a bad mood, 'cause the inside of my ear is so itchy. But I think really...

Christine Schiefer: Em, I appreciate that, but I need you to understand that my whole body feels like it has bugs all over it, and like I wanna scrape all my skin off, so as much as I really appreciate that you're empathizing with me, I understand, I do understand fully, 'cause I have...

Em Schulz: Okay. Have you ever...

Christine Schiefer: It inside my ears, and now my ears are like weeping. You know? Like they're always wet.

Em Schulz: Have you ever scratched yourself with a steak knife? That's a good time.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: With a butter knife, but not a steak knife.

Em Schulz: No, steak knife because it's serrated.

Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I don't trust... I don't trust myself...

Em Schulz: You gotta do the serrated and you don't like cut like a knife, but you just kinda do a scrape...

Christine Schiefer: Oh sure. You scrape it though. Yes, I've done that.

Em Schulz: Ooh, but over a mosquito bite. Are you kidding me? Oh my God. That's the good stuff.

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. I just scrape all my skin off. So anyway, that's what's up with me, umm but I am sorry to hear about your long ass hair in your ear that's so, it's like a nest.

Em Schulz: That's the theory. It could... Maybe I have eczema, maybe I got something else, but the long hairs are odd.

Christine Schiefer: Or maybe you just have an itchy ear.

Em Schulz: If someone could explain the... It's almost like a follicle from my head when I was born, it just never got all the way up to my head. It just stayed on like my elbow or something.

Christine Schiefer: Right. 'Cause that's how they work. They migrate from your elbows up to your head.

Em Schulz: That's what it feels like. They're hair... They're hair length, like if I don't cut them, they'll just keep growing like it doesn't end. It'll grow a long head hair.

Christine Schiefer: Why do you keep cutting it? I wanna see how long it gets.

Em Schulz: I don't want to...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I wanna, I wanna put a little bow on it.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Maybe we could take the arm hair and get it all the way to my head hair and we can braid them.

Christine Schiefer: Oh cute. Yeah, we could also crimp it or... I mean, there's a lot of fun things we can do.

Em Schulz: Next time, you know what, for your belated birthday present, next time I have one, I'm gonna yank it off, I'm gonna send it to you and then...

Christine Schiefer: Don't do that. Okay.

Em Schulz: You can stroke yourself with it.

Christine Schiefer: The second a hair is detached from anybody, I'm like, I don't want it anymore. If it's on your body, fine, it doesn't bother me, but like if it's off your body, get it away, I don't want it.

Em Schulz: Do you have any weird hair things?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, I have everything Em. My body is falling apart. I do... I have a scar hair right here that gets like so effing long. Just like you said, like, Father Time, just one hair.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: And it's, it's where when I was three, I, I was chasing my boyfriend Diamond on the playground, and umm he was my husband, I don't think he knew that, but now, he's like...

Em Schulz: He knew. He knew.

Christine Schiefer: Now, he's the head of the gay coalition in Cincinnati. So I think that umm that went south, uh but... So he...

Em Schulz: He calls you his ex to his friends, don't worry.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I wish, I wish, and I was chasing him, I tripped on the sidewalk and I bit through my lip, you know, and so like I split...

Em Schulz: Ooh, like actually through it?

Christine Schiefer: All the way through. And so I have a scar that goes...

Em Schulz: Christine...

Christine Schiefer: From the middle of my chin all the way through my lip, and so this scar, there's just one hair, it just grows out of my chin, so every now and then Blaise will be like, oh, scar hair is back, and we have to pull it. But it gets really long. Like I don't know, I don't know why.

Em Schulz: You know you mentioned, you mentioned PCOS, but like as someone with PCOS, the chin hair is unreal. Like it's crazy.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, the hairs, and now I'm getting a mustache too which I can also tell is, 'cause the PCOS is starting to rear its ugly head again, and I'm like, great, now I need to wax my face again, I am just falling apart...

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Or your body is cold and a lot of hairs are just kind of growing everywhere.

Christine Schiefer: It's just trying to protect me with its one scraggly ass hair. Thank you body.

Em Schulz: That one part of my arm, I'll tell you she is warmer than everything else, 'cause she's got her big long caterpillar hair just hanging out.

Christine Schiefer: Good. I can't wait for you to be in the Guinness Book of World Records for the world's longest arm hair.

Em Schulz: Next time I see you, I will tell Allison she's not allowed to pluck my ear hair so you can see what the hell I'm talking about 'cause it's odd.

Christine Schiefer: I need to see.

Em Schulz: It's very... It's like an earring.

Christine Schiefer: Well, I'm gonna be invasive-ly looking inside your ears with a camera, so I think that...

Em Schulz: Please, please, I gotta understand what's happening there.

Christine Schiefer: It's so freaky.

Em Schulz: And you know what's gonna really kill me is if I find out that it is a hair, and now any time it gets itchy, I'm gonna... I'm just gonna know what's happening in there.

Christine Schiefer: I'm just gonna fly out.

Em Schulz: Like right now, the mystery...

Christine Schiefer: Be your personal...

Em Schulz: Ear-tologist?

Christine Schiefer: Ear, nose and throat doctor... Uh I don't even want to say doctor. Ear, nose, and throat uh pseudo, pseudo armchair specialist.

Em Schulz: I've told you before, I'm like, like I'm definitely the pimple popper uh in the couple... Ooh, I love popping a pimple, not even mine, I don't even care if I see one on your face, I wanna get it.

Christine Schiefer: Well, get away from me, 'cause again, my hormones are out of control right now, and I'm breaking out everywhere.

Em Schulz: Well, Allison's the hair plucker, so you know, we, we balance each other out nicely.

Christine Schiefer: This is such a charming start to our show.

Em Schulz: Is everyone having fun? You know I feel like our listeners age with us, so maybe they're all in the same place as us, and maybe we need to normalize body funk.

Christine Schiefer: You know what I keep thinking is like sometimes I'll see my neighbors and they're like, oh, I just heard your episode, and I'm like...

Em Schulz: Oh God.

Christine Schiefer: Oh God, now Anne knows about all my skin problem... Now, Anne... Poor Anne, she's like, I don't need to know your ears are weeping. That's disgusting.

Em Schulz: You know who some of the most loyal listeners to the show is Allison's parents.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: They can know. They've known me for 11-12 years. They know probably the worst of the worst to be honest.

Em Schulz: Well, they know me less and...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Not anymore.

Em Schulz: Oh man. No, I umm... Yeah, and to the younger listeners, just let this be a warning, enjoy, enjoy what you have, 'cause it really... They were all right, it really doesn't last forever. So...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we're here to be fear monger... Fear mongerers.

Em Schulz: We're here to be alarmists. Check the backs of your ears for long, long hairs and check your ears for eczema apparently and germs.

Christine Schiefer: No, don't check your ears for eczema, that's how I fucking poked a hole in my ear. Don't do anything to your ear, go to the doctor and figure it out, but if you have a weird rash, it might be eczema. Oh, and then Maddie said...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: And then Maddie said, oh, did you get COVID? And I said, yeah, who didn't? Am I right? And yeah, it wasn't funny, and then Maddie said...

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Joke landed.

Christine Schiefer: Joke landed in the ocean and nobody saw it. Umm she goes, oh yeah, after I got COVID, my eczema flare-ups have been so much worse, and I'm like, okay, so maybe this is more of this bullshit post-COVID stuff, I don't know...

Em Schulz: It might be.

Christine Schiefer: But in any case, my body is falling apart. I've taken about 700 pregnancy tests 'cause I'm so afraid and I'm not pregnant. Thank God. But everything's going haywire. So I thought, well, maybe I'm pregnant, I don't know.

Em Schulz: Sure. Like your hormones are all fucked up. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but no, it's just my body is having a good time fucking around. You know?

Em Schulz: It's like your, all your chemicals in you are trying to turn 21 again and just like fucking party.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're like take us back.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Well, what are you drinking? I guess a cold cup of water because you're so scared.

Christine Schiefer: Literally just water. Just water. How boring am I? What are you drinking?

Em Schulz: Well... You know I'm having a good day drink-wise, not really, 'cause I actually just got heartburn as I said that sentence, umm but uh I, I started out with a bad morning, let's start there because uh Allison woke me up and she said, I need you to do me a favor, and usually a favor, if you're waking up at the butt crack of dawn, I'm wondering what this favor could possibly be. I thought it was, can you open the door or can you get another blanket?

Christine Schiefer: Reach something tall.

Em Schulz: It was, hey, can you drive across town, I need you to go to the house and I need you to unlock the garage door.

Christine Schiefer: Wait, wait. Oh wait, wait, wait. Did she call you or did she wake you up like in person...

Em Schulz: Oh no, she woke me up to do it.

Christine Schiefer: Like in person?

Em Schulz: In person. She went...

Christine Schiefer: Wait, why?

Em Schulz: I, we're having roofers and...

Christine Schiefer: Oh somebody is coming to do that.

Em Schulz: Things like that.

Christine Schiefer: So she had to work.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: That's my guess. I was too tired.

Christine Schiefer: That sucks.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: You had to drive over there.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Yeah. And that's the thing like a 40-minute trip, like...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you texted us at like 8:30. I was like why are you awake? You freak.

Em Schulz: I did?

Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I don't know.

Em Schulz: I didn't text you.

Christine Schiefer: You texted in the group, and usually you don't text... No offense. But usually, you don't text till 10 minutes before we record. So I was like why are you texting.

Em Schulz: Yeah. So I ended up really not in a good mood, and Allison when I got back, she tried to be really nice and sweet on me, and I was like, get the fuck away from me.

Christine Schiefer: Nice try. You lost that privilege. Eva said, yeah Em you thumbsed up so early to the...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: But a thumbs up, I thought maybe you just rolled over. You know?

Em Schulz: Sure. Sure, sure.

Christine Schiefer: Yes, it was 8:22 AM. Like, what were you doing? I don't know.

Em Schulz: Yeah, I was about to drive to the house and the worst part, this is what really, just like the tired brain of me could not get past this, is the way Allison framed it of, oh, it's not important, I need you to do it right now. And I was like are you fucking kidding me?

Christine Schiefer: You better at least pretend that you're a Marvel Superhero by the end of it, like you've done the unthinkable and the impossible and you've saved the planet.

Em Schulz: It was like, I should say, oh, it's no big deal, right. That's exactly how you wanted it to be.

Christine Schiefer: That's how you wanted it.

Em Schulz: But umm, but uh so I left early, but that means I got to go to my favorite coffee shop, so I am drinking currently to get me through the day an L Foggy so, I'm excited now. If you told me how I got this drink, I would not have been pleased.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, not worth it.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Yeah. And I got a second one for backup later. So very excited about that.

Christine Schiefer: Good for you.

Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm glad you're drinking water. Reminder to everybody else, my thirsty little rats, please drink, drink, drink, and umm I hope you and your skin are having better days than Christine and I today.

Christine Schiefer: Me too.

Em Schulz: I have a silly little story for you, Christine, it's actually not silly at all, a lot of death.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: But this is...

Christine Schiefer: That was quite a... Like the fastest 180 of history. Okay.

Em Schulz: I realized that people might think it was like squonk territory, it's actually not. Umm but I do have a story for you and I thought you would enjoy it, because if there's one thing I know about Christine, it's that she loves herself a train station.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I do. Oh, I do. I was just thinking about trains this morning.

Em Schulz: Are you 49?

Christine Schiefer: Yes! I took Leona. I feel like I'm 409. I took... But anyway, I took Leona to the toy store, 'cause we were working on expanding, that was my morning, uh expanding her little... She has like a little German train set thing and it only has like three pieces, I'm like, oh, let's go buy more pieces, they didn't have it, end of story, but umm I was there, I was looking at all the train tracks and I was like, "Leona, aren't these trains cool?" And she was like, "I guess."

Em Schulz: You are literally everyone's step-dad...

Christine Schiefer: I know!

Em Schulz: Because if any, if any stepfather came up to me and said, "Look at these train tracks," I'd go, "Get a hobby! What is wrong with you?"

Christine Schiefer: I'm such a dork. Well, we went to... I mean you're probably gonna talk about... Anyway, Em got to see me on a caboose recently and that was very, a very special moment.

Em Schulz: Oh, Christine lost her fucking mind on this caboose.

Christine Schiefer: I was like, I get to be on the caboose? It was really special.

Em Schulz: I actually don't think I knew about your love for trains...

Christine Schiefer: I don't think I really knew.

Em Schulz: Until that day.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I think I knew kind of, but like it was sort of like...

Em Schulz: Like you didn't even know?

Christine Schiefer: It was like playing second fiddle, so to speak to like my other interests, which are like umm ancient Egypt and some other ones, so I think that the trains just kinda like wild west, you know, cowboys. Those are kind of the top two and then trains come in at like a, a, a number three.

Em Schulz: You really are... Everything you just listed is something my stepdad would have a lot to say about.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: No wonder I'm just aging rapidly. My body is like your soul seems to be 8000, let's advance.

Em Schulz: I feel like by the end of this episode, you'll slowly start anamorphing into Tom.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Well, your step-dad is Tom and mine's Tim. So I'll be like Tam. I'll be like right in the middle. I'll be whatever word is right in the middle. I'll be Tum.

Em Schulz: You'll be Tum.

Christine Schiefer: I'll be Tum.

Em Schulz: Well, so uh Ms. Tum here is our, our story on the Ogden Union Station.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: And this is in Ogden, Utah, which I think we've covered Ogden, a different location in Ogden.

Christine Schiefer: It's familiar.

Em Schulz: It does seem familiar. Umm oh well, moving on. So.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Anyway, that's enough of that.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: So we start in 1846, umm and the area was established by a trapper, which I like to think that's what you were in a past life.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, with a raccoon hat. For sure.

Em Schulz: Umm yes. And his name was Miles Goodyear, and he named the area, before it was Ogden, he named the town Fort Buenaventura. Okay? Fun fact. A year later, it got renamed real quick by another guy named Captain James Brown, and he named it Brownsville.

Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, let me guess, fucking Brownville, Brownsville. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh a few years later, it got renamed again to Ogden, this was within like a five-year period, it kept getting renamed. So imagine being someone like a crotchety old man being like I remember when it was Fort Buenaventura.

Christine Schiefer: Talk of the good old days.

Em Schulz: All five years ago. Umm so yeah, apparently within five years, it kept changing, now it's Ogden in honor of a brigade leader, Peter Ogden. Great. And then despite all these names by the late 1800s, it was known throughout the area as Junction City, and this is because Ogden... It's now, I don't think still called that, but at the time, it was called Junction City and it's because Ogden becomes a major town in railroading and acts as the official transfer point for all trains heading west.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: Very fun. Fun fact, again, is that Ogden was the third incorporated city, west of the Missouri River.

Christine Schiefer: Third incorporated city. Oh, wow, okay.

Em Schulz: Which you're probably not gonna guess them correctly. But for fun, do you know what the other two might be?

Christine Schiefer: Umm let's see, how about...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: This is fun.

Em Schulz: This is like, they're nowhere near Ogden.

Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say this is fun for me, 'cause I'm just gonna name cities and they'll probably all be east of the Mississippi, and I won't even realize.

Em Schulz: Well, one is, one is near Ogden, Utah.

Christine Schiefer: Okay, umm Salt Lake City.

Em Schulz: Yes. And then...

Christine Schiefer: One is Mesa, Arizona?

Em Schulz: No, but it feels the same distance.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. I cover Mesa in my story today, so I thought, wouldn't that be fun, but...

Em Schulz: Oh that'd be real nutty. Umm no, San Francisco.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was close.

Em Schulz: Yeah, it's definitely not Utah.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: But so... Which I don't think I understand what an incorporated city is, maybe I should have looked it up, but when I hear incorporated city, I think like the only town to exist, which I know is not true, but... 'Cause in my mind, I'm like, oh, Missouri, there's all this stuff, then the Missouri River, and then on the map, there's three locations that have people living there.

Christine Schiefer: Oh and nobody, nothing else in between?

Em Schulz: And nothing else. Just like between San Francisco and Salt Lake City, there was nothing.

Christine Schiefer: Right. I feel like it just means like they have a post office or some shit. You know?

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: It means something probably official, like they have a mayor or a city hall or something.

Em Schulz: Something like that. I, I once heard that umm a city was only an official city, once it had like five... It had like a school, a police station, a hospital, a post office, and like a grocery store or something.

Christine Schiefer: And I feel like you just talked about that a few weeks ago, and I think I said the same thing, but it just feels like the Sims, you level up once you've... Like Sim City, like once you've got all those features, you finally get the next level up on your Sims game. I don't know.

Em Schulz: Yeah, something like that, anyway. I guess we'll ever know unless we Google it later.

Christine Schiefer: I guess we'll never know until everybody emails us like, why are you so dumb?

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Until like the mayor of an incorporated city goes I know exactly what's going on here.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're exiled.

Em Schulz: Umm anyway, it was the third incorporated city west of the Missouri. Uh Ogden was chosen as the city for a train station because of hefty donations the city got from LDS Founder Brigham Young.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: Umm which is weird 'cause you would think he also was heavily involved in Salt Lake City I thought, but...

Christine Schiefer: Well, that's why I guessed Mesa, because there's also a large Mormon population there, which is part of my story today, so I thought maybe they were all Mormon towns, but I guess not.

Em Schulz: Good call though.

Christine Schiefer: I try.

Em Schulz: The station was... Let's see, blah, blah, blah. Oh, okay, so yeah, so now Ogden is the chosen city for a train station. The station was originally built in 1869, and I don't know who was in charge of the location, like choosing where the station would go? Boy, did they pick a bad place? They picked this like very gross mud flat...

[laughter]

Em Schulz: As the spot where they were gonna put a heavy fucking train that it needs to be stable and nothing should break down, but being on a mud flat, one of the worst parts of it was that passengers couldn't even get to the train without just being fucking wrecked in mud by the time they got to the train.

Christine Schiefer: You're like dragging your suitcases through mud.

Em Schulz: Which, I didn't even write this down, but this is so, so topical and Eva, don't you say a damn thing 'cause we just had this conversation. We just... I just told Eva this, it blew her mind. It blew my mind. I need it to blow your mind, so just pretend even if you already know.

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Do you know what year it became common for people to have suitcases with wheels.

Christine Schiefer: Like 1995 or something, probably?

Em Schulz: How did you know that? What is wrong with you?

Christine Schiefer: Because I know about old time-y shit. 'Cause I love old time-y shit. 'Cause I'm...

Em Schulz: Eva she's not as impressed as you are.

Christine Schiefer: 8000 years old. How many times I have to tell you. I'm literally falling apart. I'm elderly and decrepit. I've seen it all. I've seen the trunks. They just had big ass trunks.

Em Schulz: Okay. Well, the answer was, you were literally so close, it makes me so upset. It was 1993.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I knew it. I was like, I'm gonna piss you off so bad. Okay.

Em Schulz: Oh yeah, Eva says we literally talked about it for like two hours coming back from your apartment.

Christine Schiefer: You guys are insane. I mean...

Em Schulz: It blew our minds!

Christine Schiefer: I mean where were the wheels gonna be on the... Okay, forget it.

Em Schulz: Because I at least thought...

Christine Schiefer: Think about those...

Em Schulz: '60s, '70s. I at least thought that.

Christine Schiefer: Antique trunks and stuff.

Em Schulz: No, I know, you're... I remember, I have seen antique trunks, but in my mind, I think of those as like so far beyond my years.

Christine Schiefer: I guess they're like early like the '20s and stuff, yeah that's fair.

Em Schulz: But I at least thought my parents had wheeled suitcases, at least. Like I didn't know we were the first fucking generation to deal with this, and so.

Christine Schiefer: To deal with this, I think it's a benefit, I would think. I'd rather...

Em Schulz: Or to not deal with it.

Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. I was like I'd rather have a fucking wheel.

Em Schulz: My mom, I actually... I literally was so freaked out about this... Oh yeah.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Yes, Eva I'm on it. Don't worry.

Christine Schiefer: What?

Em Schulz: Eva, just said make sure you mention your mom and blah, blah, blah. Which I'm about to do.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Umm I literally was so freaked out about this, it like blew my mind that I like called my mom and I was like, this can't be real. But do you, do you have stories? Tell me about yesteryear.

Christine Schiefer: Tell me about yesteryear.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Your poor mom.

Em Schulz: And uh... Because I guess when you think about it, like when I watch episodes like Full House and stuff, if there was an airport scene, they were holding all their bags, I guess, but in my mind, maybe like The Mandela Effect or something, I kind of just assumed some of them had wheels and some of them didn't. I don't know. But I was like, you couldn't have possibly lived your whole life until the '90s like this. And uh she said that it was very common, like... I mean it was not just very common, everyone had just no wheels on their suitcases. I know people older than us listening to this are probably like laughing, but it blew my mind. And she even said that it was common for like men to try to impress you at airports by carrying your luggage for you.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Well, that's probably where that came from, that the men would always take the luggage.

Em Schulz: And, well, so I was like, what about like... Like imagine us on tour with our big-ass suitcases. Can you imagine carrying those with your bare hands? Like the way my arm would fall off...

Christine Schiefer: No, we would make... We would literally find men to do it because we were like, "No, fuck off."

[chuckle]

Em Schulz: Feminism would have left the building.

Christine Schiefer: Out the window.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Uh but she would say like, "Oh yeah, like if you just like flirted with a guy at the airport... "

[laughter]

Em Schulz: "Like just put on the right lipstick and the right heels, like they would just... "

Christine Schiefer: Put on the right lipstick. [laughter]

Em Schulz: They would just carry it for you. And I was like...

Christine Schiefer: And then you go, "Oh, ow, it's so heavy, my poor little arm."

Em Schulz: I also don't know if like evolution, like am I just like so used to not carrying suitcases that it would seem harder for me? Like, was it easy for them? Because...

Christine Schiefer: Well, I remember, we would always...

Em Schulz: When I think about carrying a duffel bag, I think it's... I... Like, my brain wants to implode.

Christine Schiefer: Well, I remember we would always have those carts. Luggage carts.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay. So Eva mentioned that, I think, one of... In our conversation we talked about that where I was like, "Oh yeah, I remember those carts, we would like put in a coin and then... "

Christine Schiefer: They were like a big deal. Yes.

Em Schulz: But apparently those carts only got you to TSA, and then they didn't have carts...

Christine Schiefer: Right.

Em Schulz: After the TSA, and that was when all the men would try to like hit on you and carry your bags...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. I see.

Em Schulz: But the whole concept just absolutely wrecked me for like 24 hours. I was like...

Christine Schiefer: Well, if anyone out there is like rolling their eyes, don't worry, I'm with you 'cause I was only two years off on my guess.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Shut up. I literally thought I was going to like give you the same crisis I had.

Christine Schiefer: I mean I literally just told you about my like his... My like unwell obsession with ancient things...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: That are not interesting. So I feel like this fits the bill.

Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Well, you know, if anyone else is listening and they're relieved that someone our age isn't surprised...

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: That's when you get Christine. But if you're as blown away as I am, you've got me.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You get both sides. [laughter]

Em Schulz: I was just... I think I just did, the last thing I ever wanna do is physical labor, and so the idea that that had to be... That was more recent in our timeline than I thought. I'm just like, "Oh my God."

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It is kind of surprising. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Umm okay. Anyway, moving on.

Christine Schiefer: And you think a caveman invented the fucking wheel. So like, hello, where did it... Who took so long...

Em Schulz: I was just like, who did... And at some point, at some point, how did nobody think a wheel would, would suffice? We should put a wheel on this.

Christine Schiefer: You'd think that that would have been a quicker update to luggage. I do agree with you.

Em Schulz: Yeah, that's... Eva said the same thing. Wheels had been around forever. So like...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: It's, it's just...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes. I mean, hello, like a caveman probably would have carried his luggage on a wheel. So...

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Thank you. I feel a little more seen now because...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.

Em Schulz: I was like, "How did nobody come up with this?" Apparently there were, I will say, wheeled suitcases starting in like the '70s, but like nobody had them, which blows my mind.

[overlapping conversation]

Christine Schiefer: And they were probably like... They were probably like really expensive and fancy. You know?

Em Schulz: They had to be, 'cause otherwise how would you hear about a wheeled suitcase and go, "That's stupid"? Like...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. They probably were out of, out of reach, they were luxury items. Also my stepdad out of nowhere who never texts me, just said, "Hi, Christina, how are you?" Like he feels it somewhere that I'm becoming him...

Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] I think that he's...

Christine Schiefer: Becoming a stepdad.

Em Schulz: I think he's like sitting on a train somewhere and he's like, "You know who would enjoy this?"

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's like, "Who... " Yeah, "My brain just thought of you."

Em Schulz: Well, anyway, that whole tangent was to blow your mind, one, but two, to... Let's, let's go back to the fact that this train is built on a fucking mudflat and nobody's saying...

Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. So now we're literally dragging all our shit through the mud and like...

Em Schulz: Through the mud...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Or having to carry them, I cannot imagine, I cannot... I would literally never travel if I had to lift things, let alone quite a distance...

Christine Schiefer: Lift things.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Let alone quite a distance through mud to get on a train. And it was literally so far away from any... It wasn't like, "Oh, I have to like walk a couple, like a block," or some... Or maybe, it was like a quarter to half a mile away from the train that they had to walk through the mud to...

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: Lifting all that stuff. So they built this train station in 1869, and within the first like decade or so, everyone was like, "We're not gonna use this fucking train, we would just rather never travel because this is... "

Christine Schiefer: Oh really, it was that bad? That's sad.

Em Schulz: They're like, "We, we don't wanna walk through the mud, we don't know how it is." And so then they had to put down this wooden track, essentially, like a, a boardwalk, so that way...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: People would walk on the wood that way. Apparently it was still too long and it was still like disgusting conditions, like mud would always end up on the boardwalk. And so, they were just like, "This is too inconvenient of a depot. I don't know who was in charge of this. But you have to change it." So by 1889, only 30 years later, a whole new station has been built, and it was in a different area. And this train station is swanky, and it's connected to umm... Like it wasn't just a train station, they were like, "We're also gonna make this a hotel... "

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: "So that way you can stay here and then just go downstairs and catch your train the next day."

Christine Schiefer: Smart.

Em Schulz: So smart. And also like you literally don't have to walk at all now. It went...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No...

[overlapping conversation]

Em Schulz: It went from like "Walk half a mile in the mud" to like, "Go downstairs, girl." You know?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. "You're already here."

Em Schulz: Which is like exactly how I'm trying to travel.

Christine Schiefer: Amen.

Em Schulz: So they had, it was a 33-room hotel, it had restaurants, it had convenience shops, like barber shops and shoeshiners, so that way you could get all your stuff done.

Christine Schiefer: Damn.

Em Schulz: Or like if you had to get on the train and go see people right away from the train, you could already get your hair cut and look all fine and cute.

Christine Schiefer: Dang.

Em Schulz: The lobby had a bunch of murals that had Cathedral ceilings, that had sandstone carvings, it was like a very swanky... Big clock tower through the middle of the building.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: These sandstone carvings had... I wanted to know is like, what do these carvings look like? Like what are we deciding in 1889 as the thing to carve?

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: Apparently it was just a bunch of fruit and there was a bowl.

Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter] Okay.

Em Schulz: So, I looked up the bowl, that one was pretty obvious, that one just meant strength. Okay.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.

Em Schulz: But then I ended up on my, my usual spiral where I was like, "What is the symbolism for carved fruits?"

Christine Schiefer: Fertility?

Em Schulz: So, some. Basically, I, I have a quote, this one is from, is from like fineart.com.

Christine Schiefer: Cool. [laughter]

Em Schulz: And it says, "The tradition stretches back to the Romans... " This is a full quote, "The tradition stretches back to the Romans who ascribed fruits to their gods and goddesses, and ancient Egypt where fruit was believed to await the dead in the afterlife and therefore depicted in the tombs. During the Middle Ages, though, and the Renaissance, it became a visual language where each one symbolized something different."

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: "Fruits have been known to evoke the seasons, the senses, even allegories, it contains moral and social messages. Umm uh in Bacchus's case, who is... He is symbolized by grapes.

Christine Schiefer: God of wine.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Grapes is, is the fruit which leads to wine. Which also leads then in Christian art to the blood of Christ, I learned.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.

Em Schulz: Umm in his case, it's about youth, beauty and the inevitable decay.

Christine Schiefer: Yuck. God. This is getting intense.

Em Schulz: It, it all gets intense. I looked up a bunch of fruit and what they all mean, all of them start with an ancient God, then they end up turning into like something kind of cute, and then it goes back into symbolizing Christ in some way. So...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, Lord.

Em Schulz: Grape, grapes as we just said was Bacchus. Then he became known for uh the wine-making process. Then of course, he... He became know for Jesus. The apple at the end, it was, it started with Aphrodite, then it was about harvest season, then it was about the Garden of Eden.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: So they all kind of have the same thing. But umm I wanted to test you on at least just one fruit.

Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Oh no.

Em Schulz: Might you know what lemons mean?

Christine Schiefer: Oh. Lemons. True love, romance, umm soulmates, umm...

Em Schulz: Kisses on the, on the eyes, butterfly kisses?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes, butterfly kisses. Aww. Okay. Let me think for lemons, maybe represent uh, uh, uh cleansing your space from, from, from bad energy. I don't know.

Em Schulz: Apparently, it literally means debauchery. So...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes. Okay. I can get on board with that. Debauchery. Whoa.

Em Schulz: Which sounds exactly right. And I didn't know this, but plums are my favorite fruit. And...

Christine Schiefer: I love plums.

Em Schulz: Apparently, they are, they mean the arrival of spring and the protection from evil.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh. That's kind of what I thought lemons would be.

Em Schulz: I like this one.

Christine Schiefer: But I guess it's plums.

Em Schulz: Yeah. It's actually the evil that the plum... You have to put a plum with the lemon and then it breaks even.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: The lemon is the evil. Got it. Okay.

Em Schulz: Do you have a favorite fruit? It might be on this list, and I can tell you what it means.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh. I really like umm oranges. Well, I remember I just told you I ate 11 oranges.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: So it's pretty obvious...

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: That I love oranges. Those are probably my favorite.

Em Schulz: Oranges apparently mean abundance, prosperity, and exclusivity.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la.

Em Schulz: Which is interesting, 'cause I would have put exclusivity with pineapples because they're known for wealth and status.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Pineapple, I felt like, was what I was gonna ask about next. What's your favorite fruit? I feel like I should know this about you. You like apples...

Em Schulz: Well, plums.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, plums. Okay. Okay.

Em Schulz: And then, I like plums, I like a nectarine. I like a stone fruit, they seem to be my faves. And I also really like a kiwi, but damn it, I do not like cutting them up.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Kiwis... Have you seen people who eat them whole with the fuzz?

Em Schulz: Oh. You mean have I ever thrown up in my mouth?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Um...

Christine Schiefer: It's so gross. I mean I know you're supposed to scrub all the fur off, but I'm like, every time I do that, I'm like, "I don't feel like I got it all off... "

Em Schulz: Not even a little bit, no. I also, I'm a big berry eater, but I...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Hate raspberries.

Christine Schiefer: Really?

Em Schulz: Hate.

Christine Schiefer: That's my favorite berry.

Em Schulz: Do not put one on my plate, I won't eat it.

Christine Schiefer: Wow, I didn't... I thought I knew everything about your food taste, but I learned something new.

Em Schulz: I like the strawbs, the bluebs, the black berries. Oh my God.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: You can't... How many times do I have to tell you to stop abbreviating every word? It's... Someday it's gonna bite you in the ass.

Em Schulz: That, that was the day. Wow. Okay. Okay.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: You're such a doofus.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Okay. But the ras, hate.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I can't believe that. I feel like that's the tastiest one.

[chuckle]

Em Schulz: Umm yeah, I like, I like most berries. Umm and I'm really getting into like my, umm my cobbler era, I think. I could see my...

Christine Schiefer: Ooh. [chuckle] That feels very cottage core.

Em Schulz: I know. But I think it's because we're moving into a cottage, so it's just... It's...

Christine Schiefer: Oh... [laughter]

Em Schulz: Eventually, I'm gonna have to make a pie.

Christine Schiefer: You're gonna have like little oven mitts and like...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Put them on the window sill. Oh my gosh.

[chuckle]

Christine Schiefer: Oh, Lord.

Em Schulz: Um... Hmm...

Christine Schiefer: This is already an, an... I just feel the energy on this episode is uh out of control.

[chuckle]

Christine Schiefer: And my ears are so fucking itchy that I'm about to scream and jump out the window.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: How do you... Do you like put cream in there like to...

Christine Schiefer: I did, I put Cortis... Cortis... Cortisone, right? Hydrocortisone? Yeah.

Em Schulz: I don't know.

Christine Schiefer: It's just like this steroidal cream, put it in my ears, that helped.

Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Okay.

Christine Schiefer: But I ran out, so I feel like...

Em Schulz: Do you need more? Okay.

Christine Schiefer: I need to keep buying more. But I also wanna make sure that that's okay, because one time I put lemon juice in my ear and things went really bad.

Em Schulz: Yeah, we heard about that one.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Again...

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Debauchery, it was symbolic the whole time.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I should have put plum juice in my ear, right? Um...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: That'll be next time, I'll try that.

[chuckle]

Em Schulz: Okay. Well, anyway, apparently the main one that is carved into all this is grapes.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. Okay. Okay. Okay. I feel like that feels very like umm fanciful, like you're trying to be... Like, like you know how we, we joked about like how our mom... That our moms generation, it was all like under the Tuscan sun style for their homes, like the new homes built back then.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: I feel like grapes were everywhere. Like when I moved into this house, the people who had renovated it had put like murals of grapes everywhere, and I was like, "What are you doing?"

Em Schulz: Yeah. You know, my mom used to have a bunch of... I mean, I feel like every mom did, had those jars of like fermented fruits just sitting...

Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That you never used, that were just like...

Em Schulz: Like you never use.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they were like pretty.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: But like for what? Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. I feel like she had a bunch of umm ceramic grapes, but a lot of...

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.

Em Schulz: Fruits in bottles. I don't know... Girl, what were you thinking? Like what were... What was everyone thinking? I... It was...

Christine Schiefer: What were they thinking?

Em Schulz: It was apparently a trend, so I'm not surprised that she like ran with the trend, but like who started that?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it wasn't her. It wasn't just her. It was definitely every, like...

Em Schulz: Mom, I don't blame you.

Christine Schiefer: No, no.

Em Schulz: I do judge you. But I don't blame you.

Christine Schiefer: I do judge you. Please get that correct. But I don't blame you.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: It feels like one person, like the first person with a blog that everyone was paying attention to went to Italy, and then it just... And then it just spiraled.

Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was like Eat, Pray, Love, like send everybody into a spiral. I don't know.

Em Schulz: I don't know.

Christine Schiefer: Hmm.

Em Schulz: So anyway, the whole place gets totally redone, a bunch of fruit is carved into this place. And the first big uh oopsie-daisy moment that is attached to this building is in 1897. Ogden, as you know, is a lawless land.

Christine Schiefer: Ohhhhh...

Em Schulz: Christine just eats up those lawless lands.

Christine Schiefer: You know I love it.

Em Schulz: And it only got worse later, by the way, when an underground tunnel was put into the area. And you know, anywhere we've ever covered with an underground tunnel had a lot of lemons, if you know what I'm saying, a lot of...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: It's a lemony place.

Em Schulz: Debauchery.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: But, anyway before that even happens, it's still a lawless land, 1897, and by this time, there's already a checkered set of activities going on around here. One thing that is very umm big in this area is sex work, and there was one woman there who was in the biz, and her name was Glenna Carter, but she had, I guess a stage name called May... Mayme Evans.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: And one of her Johns, literally named John, fell in love with her. But she... Here's the thing, she was so popular that she was literally told by the police in town to leave just because she was causing too many issues with the men in town. Like...

Christine Schiefer: They're like, "We can't stop it, you're the only one who has the power."

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's amazing, Mayme.

Em Schulz: "It's up to you." They weren't even trying to like arrest her for sex work, they were just like, "You are causing too much of a stir, everyone is stumbling... "

Christine Schiefer: "Please."

Em Schulz: "You've gotta get out of here."

[chuckle]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. "Your ankle is showing. Please get out."

Em Schulz: It's like, "Mayme, your ankles are the talk of the town." So...

Christine Schiefer: The talk of the town.

Em Schulz: And this guy, John, who was one of her clients, was like, "If you're... You can't leave, you have to stay with me, I'm in love with you." She was not feeling him the way he was feeling her.

Christine Schiefer: Ohh.

Em Schulz: So she's at the train station about to leave, like, I'm loving this like cordial negotiation she had with the police, so she's like, "Okay. I'll leave."

Christine Schiefer: I like that she followed... Yeah. Why... I mean I guess they could probably threaten like, "Or we'll arrest you."

Em Schulz: Right. I'm sure she was like, "If these ankles can do this in Ogden, imagine what they can do in Mesa, Arizona, or something."

Christine Schiefer: Oh, true. "Let's go to San Francisco."

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Mesa, Arizona. Yeah.

Em Schulz: So she's at the train station about to leave town, he straight up walks up and bang, shoots her.

Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh my God. What? I thought there would at least be a tussle or something.

Em Schulz: Nope. Just violent men being rejected.

Christine Schiefer: What...

Em Schulz: History repeats itself.

Christine Schiefer: Fucking lunatic. Jesus Christ.

Em Schulz: So he goes up, shoots her, then shoots himself. And later in his, in a note that was found in his pocket, it was clear that all this was intentional from the start that he was, he...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. What a sicko.

Em Schulz: That he had succeeded in his plan.

Christine Schiefer: Just like can't handle being rejected.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Yep. And the next uh-oh situation was in 1913, uh we're at the train station again, there's this woman named Minnie, and she is not a mouse. She is...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank God, you did say she's a woman named Minnie, but thank you for clarifying again.

Em Schulz: I hear Minnie, I hear mouse, I just needed to shatter the illusion for anybody else who was playing that in there.

Christine Schiefer: Understood.

Em Schulz: There's a woman named Minnie, she is married to this guy, Charles. Charles dumps her ass, and then she ends up getting with this guy named George. And George and her get pregnant with a little girl. The little girl's name is Frances.

Christine Schiefer: Aww.

Em Schulz: Umm so she's hanging out with George, they have Frances. 10 years later, Minnie goes, "You know what, I want my trashy ex-boyfriend back. I don't wanna be with you, George, I'm leaving you. I'm gonna be with Charles."

Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.

Em Schulz: So, uh she, however, I guess, finds Charles or gets back in touch with him and they agree that she... If she's gonna be with him, she cannot be tied down to anyone, including her daughter, Frances.

Christine Schiefer: No. I was like, "That can't include the daughter."

Em Schulz: So Charles meets Minnie, uh they board the train, they check their luggage at the station, and uh...

Christine Schiefer: She just left the girl?

Em Schulz: Well, so the employee looks at the luggage and realizes there's a really bad smell.

Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh no. Oh my God. What?

Em Schulz: And then he sees hair sticking out of the suitcase.

Christine Schiefer: Gasp.

Em Schulz: He calls the police, and let's just say the local papers headline the next day was, "Nude body of 10-year-old girl found in trunk at Union depot, mother charged with crime."

Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh my God. What is wrong with these people?

Em Schulz: They were both arrested and Minnie was later sent to a psychiatric facility, I think for the rest of time.

Christine Schiefer: Need... Probably needed a... Needed some help.

Em Schulz: And then on top of that, only a few years later, in 1923, the hotel of this... The hotel part of the train station, 'cause remember they're connected.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: An unattended iron was left on a pair of pants for too long...

Christine Schiefer: I knew it. I was like, "The fire, there's been no fire yet, where's the fire?"

Em Schulz: Big ol' fire.

Christine Schiefer: Damn.

Em Schulz: So I guess the building was not really fucked up from the fire, but it was damaged pretty darn bad.

Christine Schiefer: Mm.

Em Schulz: But they were trying to save money because they were like, "We just built a whole other train station."

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Like...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: "Can we just go back to the mudflat, please?"

[laughter]

Em Schulz: It's like this wouldn't have happened at the mudflat.

Christine Schiefer: Wait, so, did anybody die there or no, in the fire?

Em Schulz: Not during the fire. No.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.

Em Schulz: But structurally, the building was a little wrecked.

Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.

Em Schulz: And only parts of it, so I guess they were like, "Well, to save money, let's just kind of slap a band-aid on these sections... "

Christine Schiefer: Great.

Em Schulz: "And keep the train station going." Umm but during the repairs, they were like, "Okay, the cashier's office is damaged, we're gonna move the cashier's office temporarily to another space." And the cashier that was working it, his name was Frank. So they're like, "Frank, you're working," I don't know, "in the broom closet now. Sorry, Frank."

Christine Schiefer: Ha ha. Sucks for you.

Em Schulz: And while they were doing repairs, Frank is now in this new space, and uh as he's working one day, the construction workers above him...

Christine Schiefer: Gasp.

Em Schulz: Watch a gust of wind, so they say, couldn't have been them, but you know...

Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.

Em Schulz: Maybe it really was a gust of wind. They see a gust of wind knock over one of the roof supports that they were putting down, and the support bumps into one of those big-ass fruit shaped sandstone carvings.

Christine Schiefer: Shut up.

Em Schulz: One of the 250-pound stones gets knocked loose...

Christine Schiefer: Gasp.

Em Schulz: And plop, falls right on to Frank's head.

Christine Schiefer: In the closet downstairs through the floor?

Em Schulz: In, in his little Harry Potter closet, yeah.

Christine Schiefer: That's so fucking awful. Do we know what fruit it was? That feels very symbolic.

Em Schulz: Probably it was a lemon, girl. I don't know what to tell you.

Christine Schiefer: It's probably a fucking lemon. Let's be real.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: The irony of it being a plum to protect you from evil.

Christine Schiefer: Aww. Aww.

Em Schulz: So after Frank's death, the quick repairs were not enough because the town was like, "Okay, railroad station, you have to fucking build a better facility, like you can't just keep... "

Christine Schiefer: "Can you just stop like killing everyone?" Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. And so they were like, "Okay, fine, I guess we have to do a, a whole new goddam depot on this foundation. So that's what we're gonna do." So with the new construction on the original foundation, the railway also built the tunnel system, which uh, they had this tunnel system under the tracks, that way people could access all the trains from inside on bad days.

Christine Schiefer: Mmm.

Em Schulz: Now they really care about inclement weather, thank God.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle]

Em Schulz: Umm and also it was to help with deliveries and things like that. But eventually, the tunnel apparently was filled in, and in 2008, it was rediscovered when they found old foundations of the building.

Christine Schiefer: That's just wild to me that they'd... People would just, never wrote anything down, and were like...

Em Schulz: Isn't that crazy?

Christine Schiefer: "Anyway, let's just fill this in, no one will ever know."

Em Schulz: Well, so here, here's something I really like. I didn't, I didn't find pictures online. I, I also absolutely did not look, maybe it's the very first fucking picture on Google, but apparently, when they found this tunnel, they ended up glassing off some of it, so you can look into the tunnel now.

Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Now that I like.

Em Schulz: That I thought was a fun little, a fun little thing. So now they've got this brand new train station, they're like, "Oh, hopefully all the bad stuff is behind us." Well, then in 1944, on New Year's Eve, there was the Bagley train wreck, which uh, it's apparently the worst train crash to ever happen in Utah. And it was not technically in Ogden, it was the town next door. But they... It was heading into Union Station.

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: So that day there was a freight train that was experiencing a hot box on board. So a hot box is when umm... Trains have a metal box that holds some of the equipment in it, and the box is supposed to be soaked, like there's supposed to be a bunch of rags in this box that are soaked in oil to prevent any friction from all the metal pieces bumping into each other.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.

Em Schulz: Which feels antiquated.

Christine Schiefer: Feels like a, feels like a Christine workaround, but okay. Yeah, yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Speaking of like train, like make this all new and improved. Let's just throw a couple of oil-soaked rags on a big hot box.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, nothing could go wrong. Yeah. On a big hot box, yes.

Em Schulz: But apparently that was how they did it, just to keep everything super loose and couldn't prevent friction at all. Well, I guess someone didn't change out the oil-soaked rags and the rags were dry, and...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.

Em Schulz: Friction was actually happening...

Christine Schiefer: Gasp.

Em Schulz: In this metal box full of shit that was jostling around. The box got so hot, in which case you have hot box, umm that this part of the train became extremely hot and eventually causes the train to derail. Well, so...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.

Em Schulz: Luckily, this is not the actual part of the train wreck that happens, they caught this early enough where they had to slow down the train. They were like, "Shit's about to go crazy."

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Which they accidentally predicted correctly anyway, because they pulled over so that way there wouldn't be a problem.

Christine Schiefer: Right.

Em Schulz: But then a train behind them...

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: Did not get the signal fast enough...

Christine Schiefer: Shit.

Em Schulz: That the train ahead of them had stopped.

Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.

Em Schulz: And at full speed, kapowee.

Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. So in the, in the process of trying to prevent...

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: An accident, they inadvertently caused a different type of accident.

Em Schulz: Yes.

Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's terrible.

Em Schulz: And so there were, I guess, two trains behind them, one of them heard the signal or found out somehow, I don't know... They didn't have wheels on suitcases, I don't know how you... Like what they Bluetooth fucking figure out that the train was stopped.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: But the... So that one pulled, pulled aside. The other train behind it though, they think because of either fog or maybe the conductor had a heart attack or something...

Christine Schiefer: Gasp.

Em Schulz: Or was distracted, but for some reason didn't catch the message that the train had stopped ahead...

Christine Schiefer: Or like the con... Conductor either had a heart attack or was distracted. It's like wouldn't...

[overlapping conversation]

Em Schulz: They have no idea.

Christine Schiefer: If he had a heart attack, I'd be pretty distracted too. Just sayin'.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Well, so the local paper says this about the accident, "The force of the impact sent a sleeping car smashing through the dining car, and farther ahead one coach into the coach ahead of it. Cars of the mail express section piled up on the track, some sliding down the embankment into water."

Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.

Em Schulz: And this train accident caused 50 fatalities, around 50 fatalities, and around 80 injured.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: Luckily, a lot of the people who were supposed... Who were injured and should have died ended up being saved because conveniently on the train, either the train that crashed and they were survivors, or the train that pulled aside...

Christine Schiefer: Right.

Em Schulz: Umm was full of like medical stuff.

Christine Schiefer: Gasp.

Em Schulz: So they were able to save, what could have been 130 fatalities, that it was only 50. Only.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. Okay. So they were right, right place... Well...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Kind of wrong place, wrong time, but also right place, right time. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah, it was the, the right time to be in the wrong place.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. There you go.

Em Schulz: So, uh, and because there were so many deaths and so many injured, I mean it was over 100 people, almost 150 people, there was a nearby theater that they ended up like breaking into and opening up and creating a morgue out of it for the day...

Christine Schiefer: Ohh.

Em Schulz: Just to hold all the bodies as they were pulling people off the train.

Christine Schiefer: Wait a minute. This sounds familiar. Is this a Ghost Adventures episode? [chuckle] I feel like I've seen this on a ghost show, where they did like a theater. Or maybe I'm conflating it with something else.

Em Schulz: Ghost Adventures. Zak is not appearing in this episode. So, Ghost Adventures, Ogden, 'cause there is an episode where he goes to Ogden. Oh, so maybe he, um, had a moment where he visited the theater. But the...

Christine Schiefer: I sort of feel like that happened or some, some ghost show, I think.

Em Schulz: No, you're totally right. Zak does go to Ogden, and I could have covered that in this, but that episode had so many little chunks he went to that it didn't...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.

Em Schulz: Like he didn't go to one location and made up a story.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see, I see. So that was probably what I was thinking. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. So you, you probably saw him go to the theater, it's called the Browning Theater.

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Um, but... So yeah, so many people were dying or needed a place to go, they just opened this place up and turned into a morgue for the day.

Christine Schiefer: Damn.

Em Schulz: Also around this time, a lot... Just to add to like why there's so many haunts going through this train station is this was also the train station a lot of World War II wounded soldiers...

Christine Schiefer: Hmm.

Em Schulz: Used to get to hospitals. Um...

Christine Schiefer: Oof.

Em Schulz: And later on in time, Vietnam War soldiers who...

Christine Schiefer: Hmm.

Em Schulz: Uh, their bodies were being brought through the station when they were being brought back to their families.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I just got chills. I always, I always feel like areas with heavy former train passage, I just feel like that, that, that's bound to... I don't know if that's just me, but it feels like it's bound to have some activity because you are bringing so many people in and out.

Em Schulz: So many lives.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Um the Vietnam War soldiers who went through here, apparently when their bodies were being brought through the station, it was reported at different times that many, many coffins were just stacked on top of each other, on the platforms, because they were trying to just get them all onto trains.

Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Imagine how dark, terrible.

Em Schulz: Imagine just like having to go to work and you just see just stacks of coffins.

Christine Schiefer: I know... It's just your life. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Um, it was around this time that Utah wanted to up the taxes on the train station, and the depot closed officially. So, um, in the 1970s, it was put on the National Register of Historic Places. Amtrak ended up taking over the train station, but later, it shut down altogether. And it is now a set of multiple museums. Today, it is the Utah State Railroad Museum, which you would go nuts for.

Christine Schiefer: I want to.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: It was the, it's the John Browning Firearms Museum and the Browning Kimball Classic Car Museum. And the space also has art galleries, gift shops and hosts conventions and events. Um, and that's the history of it. But for the ghosts, there's just like a lot of creepy stuff going on. There's like, I actually found some really good, like, specific stories, which is nice. But, um, the Browning Arms Museum is full of firearms and apparently, all those seem to be haunted 'cause people will hear tapping in the room. Like on the glass of the displays. People will see, uh, apparitions of men in military uniforms as if they're still...

Christine Schiefer: A haunted firearm is like probably the worst item to be haunted.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: I know.

Christine Schiefer: Don't load that ever.

Em Schulz: Well, hello Sarah Winchester.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, true. True.

Em Schulz: Like that girl thought that every firearm had an attachment to it.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-Hmm.

Em Schulz: Um, and so, yeah, they saw a bunch of military people in uniform walking around in that room, especially civil war uniforms.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: So there's one guy in a civil war uniform who has, um, this long handlebar mustache. Apparently, he's very kind. I don't know what that means, but...

Christine Schiefer: I don't either. I was like, how do you even determine that in however briefly you would see a ghost, but whatever.

Em Schulz: I know. I'm like, does he wave to you? Does he leave you alone? Because that seems pretty fucking nice.

Christine Schiefer: That's pretty kind. Yeah. If he just like doesn't look at you.

Em Schulz: Um, in the museums and event spaces, objects move throughout all the rooms, things go missing. The classic kind of, you know, things turn on and off by themselves. People hear footsteps and several voices talking throughout the halls. But like, you think like a group of people are coming through.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: And then you look in totally empty, you're by yourself.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: People feel someone patting their backs and shoulders and rubbing their arms in the ballroom.

Christine Schiefer: Oh. No.

Em Schulz: One ghost loves to touch men.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.

Em Schulz: And another one loves to touch women.

Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. What if it's the same one?

Em Schulz: Oh, it could be, could be.

Christine Schiefer: Just a thought.

Em Schulz: Apparently one of them, like, there's like a feminine one who seems to touch men a lot. They hear women's voices in their ears. They feel stroking, but then women say that they feel something grabbing their butt. So...

Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.

Em Schulz: I don't know if they're the same.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Probably not. But what do I know.

Em Schulz: Near the restrooms, a woman is heard talking to you, and when you try to like find her, 'cause she's so soft spoken, you like, try to find her. You can never find her. They also hear loud laughing in the bathroom. There's an... Which like is so embarrassing with your pants down if you're laughing.

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, oh that's the last kind of sound you wanna hear.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Oh my God. I wanna get outta here. There's another woman who was heard screaming and crying, and she's also seen running near an old platform in a blue dress. So can you imagine what her name is here?

Christine Schiefer: Could this be Mamie?

Em Schulz: No. It could be the lady in blue.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh the lady in blue. I'm sorry. I thought you were having me guess the person, but yes. Okay. Blue dress.

Em Schulz: So it might be Mamie, but there's like another like, alleged story that there was this, can you guess jilted lover because there's always one.

Christine Schiefer: And they're always in a blue or white or red dress.

Em Schulz: Always in a solid colored dress.

Christine Schiefer: Yes.

Em Schulz: And she's apparently this jilted lover who had a fight with her boyfriend on the platform, and either she got broken up with and she ran away. It added like shame or embarrassment, doesn't know where she's going. Fucking runs into an oncoming train.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: There's other versions of this where like, he threw the engagement ring and then she went after it and had to like jump into the, under the platform. And then a train hits her. No matter what, it's tragic and the train hits her.

Christine Schiefer: Oof.

Em Schulz: That's how it goes.

Christine Schiefer: Oof.

Em Schulz: But now, people see this lady in blue all over the damn place. They always hear her screaming and crying. Another woman, lady in white.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Is seen roaming the halls in a white dress. And uh, whenever she's around, people also see strange lights and mists floating through the building. Um, people have seen mists like just as if it's humanoid walking down the stairs.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.

Em Schulz: The lights turn on in the station all by themselves. Windows open all by themselves. People smell a really strange floral perfume. And people see intense shadow figures. Like...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't like that.

Em Schulz: Not, not out of the corner of your eye, but standing right in front of you, man shaped shadow figures that disappear around the corner.

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: Uh, in the lobby, people have heard very loud conversations. When the space is empty, people have gotten EVPs of children. A man saying hello, a woman saying help and snickering.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: Uh, this is, this one always gets me. This actually happened in my own apartment complex one time. But the elevator will ding by itself and the doors will open.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: As if someone is using the elevator. But you're the only person in the building. This one's like the staff are closing up for the night and all of a sudden they hear the elevator coming.

Christine Schiefer: The elevator's like moving. Ew. That's so gross. That's like out of a horror movie.

Em Schulz: Uh, after... That happened in this apartment building after one of our ghost hunts, and I was like...

Christine Schiefer: At one of our ghost hunts?

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: And it felt like something was like letting me know it was following me home.

Christine Schiefer: It's like.

Em Schulz: That's how it felt.

Christine Schiefer: But don't worry, I was polite. I took the elevator.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Like, okay.

Em Schulz: Yeah, thanks for letting me know. But I, as soon as I saw the elevator open by itself, I went, nope.

Christine Schiefer: Goodbye.

Em Schulz: Goodbye.

Christine Schiefer: Love and light. Get outta here.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Uh, Frank, the guy who was in the cashier's office and got the stone hit him on the head.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: He's thought to still be working there, which I always feel so bad for the ghosts who are still working.

Christine Schiefer: Especially dying on the job too. It's not even like he got a break before that. He just died there.

Em Schulz: He died on the job 'cause he dies for the job.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Tragic. He likes to move this one chair when it's left unattended. Apparently, if you leave it in the middle of the room, I don't know which one it is. Either he likes to put it in the middle of the room, or he hates when you put it in the middle of the room, and he'll drag it back to the side.

Christine Schiefer: And nobody can ever figure out which one it is. So he just gets pissed off.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: He's like, I told you.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Uh, there's a ghost of a woman that has now been named Sarah, and she is said to have died in a car accident on the way to Union Station.

Christine Schiefer: Oh interesting.

Em Schulz: And I guess this was for an event being held at Union Station. So she's said to now be felt and seen dancing in the ballroom.

Christine Schiefer: She just wanted to get to her party.

Em Schulz: Yeah. I know.

Christine Schiefer: That's sad.

Em Schulz: She's like now I'm gonna dance the night away.

Christine Schiefer: Good for her.

Em Schulz: Um, so people see something, someone dancing, uh, in the ballroom. Uh, also in people have said that they feel, so I guess the theater must be attached to the train station, this Browning Theater because it sounds like people are able to go in and out of this train station and just walk right into the theater.

Christine Schiefer: And access it.

Em Schulz: Which would make sense why they would have pulled the bodies and dragged them right to this theater.

Christine Schiefer: Into the... Right, right, right.

Em Schulz: Um, but people also see someone dancing on the stage in the theater when they walk in. And then when they blink, the, the dancer's gone.

Christine Schiefer: I'll be honest, like I never really thought about it before, to be honest with you, but something about a ghost dancing is like probably one of the least... Like, one of the least comfy things to see a ghost doing. Like if it's walking, you can just be like, oh, it's just walking. If it's just standing there. Creepy. Of course. But something about like dancing by themselves and then they disappear. There's something just really gives me the goosecam about that.

Em Schulz: There's something really, I don't know if it's like an uncanny situation.

Christine Schiefer: Yes.

Em Schulz: [1:01:03.4] ____ thing, but like, it feels like too whimsical to be stuck here.

Christine Schiefer: Yes, it's like, it's like off. Like it's somehow off. Like why are you dancing?

Em Schulz: It's like, are you having fun while trapped?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Like it feels like an oxymoron in some way.

Christine Schiefer: And then they're like by themselves when presumably they would've been dancing with like a whole bunch of other people, which is also kind of unsettling. There's just, ooh, it gives me goosecam. I don't know.

Em Schulz: Yeah. It would freak me out somehow less if I saw like 20 ghosts in one room dancing together.

Christine Schiefer: Group. Yes. I totally agree.

Em Schulz: But I think, 'cause even when alive dancing alone looks kind of odd.

Christine Schiefer: True. If you see someone like in a dark room by themselves dancing, you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna leave you to it. Yeah. That's a good point Em whether they're alive or not, maybe that's part of it.

Em Schulz: Yeah. That's freaky.

Christine Schiefer: Especially with no music. That's the other thing. I presume there's no music playing, which also would be like, okay, what are you doing?

Em Schulz: Yeah. Also, because I also think residually it still looks lonely, but you're having fun and I don't know.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.

Em Schulz: I don't know how to feel. I think that's what freaks me out.

Christine Schiefer: Insane.

Em Schulz: I already am scared and on top of that, I can't justify this.

Christine Schiefer: It's unsettling. Yeah.

Em Schulz: So also in the theater, apparently more unsettling to me than the dancing, is people hear someone just fucking sprinting through this thing. Sprinting through an empty theater.

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. That's also no good. No good.

Em Schulz: I don't know if at you or away from you is better, but it, they hear just like someone bursting through the theater.

Christine Schiefer: Just the alarm of that and then not seeing where it's coming from. Oh my God.

Em Schulz: People also feel waves of static electricity hit them. They see shadows starting around the corners, and in the basement, this is, they also think Frank is responsible for this. They say, uh, someone has felt things, uh, in the basement. They've seen things moving. One time, they literally saw a clipboard swinging wildly from a string 'cause you know, sometimes people...

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.

Em Schulz: Hang the clipboard on a string. It was swinging around like fucking crazy.

Christine Schiefer: Eww, no.

Em Schulz: And when they said, Frank, stop it. Not only did it stop in like immediately, like in dead air, it dropped to the floor because the string was never holding it. Like pass.

Christine Schiefer: Oh. Also like, imagine if it let's go and just goes fucking flying into someone's face. I feel like that...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Like that could have gone so bad.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Well, this is I think the last story. Yeah, this is the last story I have. But, um, there was a handyman working, uh, in the, in the theater section or just in, in, I think it was in the theater section of this building. His name was Jared. And he's locking up for the night and he leaves, he's driving home, but on the way home, he gets a call from security being like, hey, we just checked the theater section of this building and the alarms are going off and someone is moving around in the lobby like, you, you didn't lock up properly. Someone's in there, you gotta go back. Which I love. The security couldn't just fucking do it for you.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're like, it, it's your job. Go back in there.

Em Schulz: It's kind of like when Allison was like, hey, I know I'm awake and have access to the car keys, but can you wake your ass up and go to the house?

[laughter]

Em Schulz: And I was like, aren't you already able to do that? Anyway, I'm imagining Jared felt the same way of like, you're security, I'm gone.

Christine Schiefer: It's like you saw it before I did, but okay.

Em Schulz: I've clocked out and you are there.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Can you handle it?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Allison.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: So, um, so Jared goes back, he's like, okay, these bullshit security, okay, I'll do it. I'll do it. He opens the door, the alarms are not going off. He is like, okay, I thought the alarms were going off. I thought there was someone in here.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: The alarms are totally not off. He looks around, nobody's in the theater. So he locks up again. He makes sure the alarm is set and he leaves. On his way home again...

Christine Schiefer: I can't.

Em Schulz: Security calls him and they're like, dude, did you not come here? Like, what's going on? Because the alarms are freaking the fuck out. And someone is walking around in there. He comes back a third time and he's like, there better be fucking something because I don't wanna come back here a fourth time.

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: I have to go home. I'm so sleepy. I want to eat my sandwich. Umm.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's, uh, that's verbatim what he said.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Verbatim. I'm so sleepy. I wanna eat my sandwich.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Um, so he goes back a third time and he gets there. There's fucking nothing going on. The alarms are not going off. He doesn't see any sign of anyone in there. Um, but as he's about to leave, one of the doors to the auditorium, slams behind him, he's super freaked out.

Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.

Em Schulz: He actually brought... He actually brought his friend with him this time. I think one story said it was his dad. Like, I think he was picking up his dad from work.

Christine Schiefer: Daddy, I'm scared. Come with me.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Papa, help me.

Christine Schiefer: Papa, I just wanna eat my sandwich. Please take me back.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Papa, I'm sleepy. I'm sleepy.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: So now they're both there and uh, now they hear this door slam.

Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. It's like a horror movie.

Em Schulz: They both go into the theater to like follow whoever was in there.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: And they hear this scurrying like this fast running through the theater.

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: Their first thought is, it must be someone trying to escape them.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Because it sounds like someone got busted and they're trying to flee. So they're chasing after this thing. They can hear the footsteps in front of them and they decide, I'm gonna go this way. You go that way. We're gonna trap them, we're gonna corner them. They end up running into each other because nobody was ever there.

Christine Schiefer: That's Scooby Doo level.

Em Schulz: Yeah. And then as they, they were like, okay, that was weird. There's no way that he could have gotten away from us. I don't know what that was. That had to be a ghost. We're leaving. They lock up and when they drive home, they get a call from security again.

Christine Schiefer: Don't... Don't even. I would block, block their number. I'm so over them.

Em Schulz: Which is what Jared did. He literally said, don't call me again because...

Christine Schiefer: Thank you.

Em Schulz: This is bullshit.

Christine Schiefer: This is bullshit.

Em Schulz: So if you would like to have an experience like this yourself, I think they're still holding them, but the Ogden Union Station hosts ghost tours every October.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, Em, I need to go so bad.

Em Schulz: A haunted train station is all Christine could ever want.

Christine Schiefer: Come on. Would you go with me?

Em Schulz: Yes.

Christine Schiefer: Okay, good.

Em Schulz: Uh, and that is the Ogden train, Ogden Union Station.

Christine Schiefer: That was delightful. I feel like you're just giving me like birthday gift after birthday gift with these stories.

Em Schulz: That's the plan until I see you again.

Christine Schiefer: So nice. So nice. Um, well thank you. And that was really one of my favorites, I think.

Em Schulz: Oh, really? Thank you.

Christine Schiefer: I know, I know I'm biased, but it was extra creepy. I got a lot of goosecam during that one.

Em Schulz: I was gonna say, what's, what's the, what's the next thing? 'Cause I got your cowboys. I got your trains.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Oh, Egypt. I have to cover Egypt now. Okay.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you gotta go to ancient Egypt. Sorry. Uh.

Em Schulz: Anyway, uh, now I'm, I'm ready for you to tell me a story. I have my, my L foggy. I have it in my vase. Well, it's, I call it a cup, but it's a flower pot.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Um, and...

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, I forgot about that thing.

Em Schulz: It's literally the size of my head.

Christine Schiefer: Does it have a spout?

Em Schulz: It does because it's supposed, it's like a pitcher I think. It's a little...

Christine Schiefer: A pitcher. I see.

Em Schulz: Pitcher. But then gulp, gulp, gulp it pitches right into my mouth. So.

Christine Schiefer: Do you drink outta the pitcher part?

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, cute.

Em Schulz: Look.

Christine Schiefer: Wow. I mean, I believe you.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Easy breezy.

Christine Schiefer: But thank you for proving it.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: You're welcome. Um, I suggest to all my thirsty little rats to get yourself a pitcher because it really does, uh, the experience is 10 outta 10.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, listen, you heard it here first, folks. Um, pitch it right into your mouth.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: So here's a story I have for you today. Now, I am a little on edge, not on edge. That's like way too dramatic of a phrase. But like, I'm a little bit confused because I... Like I would've bet money that I've covered this before.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: And I know this has happened to us a few times. Um, but I'm telling you, I looked and looked and looked and then I had Eva look. I was like, Eva, am I missing something? And 'cause she was like, yeah, it does really sound like something you've covered. We could not find it. And I distinctly remember when we first started the podcast, I'm talking 2017, when I lived in Los Feliz. I remember getting really interested in this case and watching a ton of, uh, like episode like True Crime episodes about it on, on whatever, ABC 20/20, something like that. And I can't believe I never covered it. I must have just like, put it aside and then never done it. But if I have, I promise folks, I really tried to check.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I didn't find it.

Em Schulz: What the hell are you talking about today?

Christine Schiefer: This is the murder of Travis Alexander by Jody Arias. Jody Arias.

Em Schulz: Okay. And I don't know, I've never heard of it before.

Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say you... I should... Well, so if you haven't heard of it, then definitely I feel better because it's a pretty notable case. Um, Jody Arias, I guess is how you say her name.

Em Schulz: Well, keep in mind I also, like, I don't have the, the memory of every story all the way back to 2017. So maybe you have covered this and it's just gonna be brand new for me all over again.

Christine Schiefer: It'll be just new for us.

Em Schulz: But that name doesn't... The name doesn't feel like something I've heard before.

Christine Schiefer: Okay, 'cause if you had said, oh yeah, that does sound familiar, I'd be really concerned. Um, because then I'd be like, why? Okay, so let's get into it. Um, Travis Alexander was born July 28th, 1977, in Riverside, California. He was one of seven children and had a pretty difficult upbringing because his mom and dad both struggled with substance use disorders, including meth. And one of Travis' sisters described their parents as poverty stricken. He just lived in a very high stress, low nurturing environment. And when he was pretty young, their parents divorced and he was in a very unstable living condition, um, where he experienced homelessness several times. Some of them even lived in a tent with their mother for a period of time. Um, that's how unstable things were. And after this, their grandmother, Norma, stepped in and said I'll, I'll help out. She moved Travis and his siblings into her home, and Norma herself was a devout Mormon, and she introduced them to the church and she raised them in the Mormon faith. So that is how we get into this whole... That's how I got into the whole Mormon-Mesa connection, but we'll get there.

Em Schulz: Gotcha. Gotcha.

Christine Schiefer: So Travis grew up to be a very, very kind and charismatic and empathetic person despite his, uh, kind of tumultuous upbringing. And he had a way of connecting with people that left a pretty strong impression on everyone he met. Um, people described him as very, uh, very inspiring and like motivational, like as, like he'd be the kind of person who'd maybe give a TED talk. Like he can kind of convince you of anything really.

Em Schulz: He's got the charm.

Christine Schiefer: He's got the charm.

Em Schulz: He's got the schmooze.

Christine Schiefer: He's a good schmoozer and also a good writer. And so because of this, he met a friend through the church named Chris Hughes, who was impressed by these kind of talents and said, I think you should work in sales. And what do we think when we hear Mormon and sales?

Em Schulz: Uh-oh, ding dong. Is he the at the door person?

Christine Schiefer: No, but that's a good guess. He's not a missionary.

Em Schulz: Hello? My name is Elder Price. What's his...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: My favorite song. Um, no, he, uh, he worked for an MLM because many of...

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: The, uh, LDS founded...

Christine Schiefer: Yep.

Em Schulz: MLMs have gotten really big. And there's kind of this connection there. I don't totally know the history of it. Um, but that's kind of like the stereotypical thing. Uh, a lot of times you'll see, you know, LuLaRoe, all those, uh, are LDS based. So anyway, uh, his friend Chris Hughes was like, I've got just the job for you. And this job was at a place called Prepaid Legal Incorporated. So probably like the least interesting sounding MLM I've ever heard of. Umm...

Em Schulz: Well, that's how they get you.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're like, no, no, no, this is legit. You know...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Prepaid, legal...

Em Schulz: They're like, don't worry, this is, this is boring. You don't even want it. You don't even want...

Christine Schiefer: You don't even want it. Incorporated. Exactly. Like, why would you put that in there? Um, yeah, it's no LuLaRoe, it's no, I mean, I could list them off. But anyway, basically, it was Travis's job to sell insurance for legal representation. And if a customer needed a lawyer and couldn't afford one, then that insurance he was selling would pay for the legal representation. I don't know the ins and outs of this business. I know MLMs in general are very shady, so I don't, I I'm not gonna put an opinion on this 'cause I really have no clue. And this was also a while ago. Um, but just to give you an idea of what he was doing as work. So now, we're in 2006, and Travis is 29 years old. He's living in Mesa, Arizona, just outside of Phoenix. Umm, where I learned there's a relatively large Mormon population.

Em Schulz: Interesting.

Christine Schiefer: Not as...

Em Schulz: I didn't know that.

Christine Schiefer: Not apparently Brigham Young status or whatever the fuck with, uh, Ogden, but, you know, close enough.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Um, and that September he traveled to Las Vegas for a work conference where he met Jodi Arias. Now, Jodi grew up in northern California and she, unlike Travis had, had a very nurturing, large, loving family. And she described her own childhood as ideal. And she and Travis hit it off right away. Travis invited her to dinner the night they met, they stayed up until 4 AM just talking, you know, that like classic falling in love.

Em Schulz: Oh...

Christine Schiefer: The first night.

Em Schulz: I miss it.

Christine Schiefer: I know.

Em Schulz: I miss it. But Allison goes to bed at 7 PM.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: And then wakes you 4 AM.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: I'm like really? Okay.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: For a romantic chat about the garage.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: For a romantic separation, so I can go to the garage without her. Yeah.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: So the next morning, he called up his friends and said, I just met the woman I'm going to marry. And they were like, whoa. He fell in love overnight.

Em Schulz: Wow.

Christine Schiefer: The only issue seemed to be distance, because when the conference ended, Jodi had to go home to Palm Desert, California, which was a five-hour drive from Mesa, Arizona. But Travis was so into Jodi that he was not discouraged. He bought a book, which I think I own, called 'A Thousand Places to See Before You Die.' And he...

Em Schulz: Oh, I've seen that book.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like we've seen it like on, I don't know, displays.

Em Schulz: It was on all of our Tuscan bookshops for mom's.

Christine Schiefer: Oh that's right. Yeah, next to the dusty fake grapes. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Um, so 'A Thousand Places To See Before You Die.' So he and Jodi decided as almost like a bucket list to start trying to visit as many in the area as they could. So in the Southwest, they started going to all these places together, very romantic. And Travis was very, uh, adamant about his faith in, about his Mormon faith. And so he discusses a lot with Jodi. And he even sent, which I've been waiting to tell you, he even sent Mormon missionaries to her door. Knock, knock.

Em Schulz: Oh.

Christine Schiefer: Ding dong to...

Em Schulz: My name is Elder Price.

Christine Schiefer: My name is Elder Price. And Travis sent me here, um, to...

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: To speak with her about converting to the LDS...

Em Schulz: Oh, yuck.

Christine Schiefer: Faith. And she said, absolutely. And...

Em Schulz: Oh.

Christine Schiefer: She did.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: So listen, they were dating about...

Em Schulz: It worked out.

Christine Schiefer: Six weeks.

Em Schulz: Great.

Christine Schiefer: And she said, I wanna do that, so whatever, good for you. So she did. And Travis even baptized her himself. That is how, uh, important this was to both of them.

Em Schulz: Okay. They are into it. Good. Great.

Christine Schiefer: Yep. So his friends uh said that Travis took his faith very seriously. Um, he had adhered to celibacy before marriage, and he planned to marry a Mormon woman with the same beliefs. And at first, obviously Jodi and Travis seemed like a great match. Jodi was adventurous, sweet. As far as looks were concerned, she was exactly his type. She was very pretty. Um, they made each other laugh. They loved to travel, they talked nonstop. Um, it seemed like everything they did was just nonstop fun and laughter. And a friend asked Travis, is she really this nice? And he said, yes, she really is. That's just who she is...

Em Schulz: Aww.

Christine Schiefer: As a person.

Em Schulz: That's lovely.

Christine Schiefer: I know. So in an email to a friend, Travis wrote, I went from intrigued by her to interested in her, to caring about her deeply, to realizing how lucky I would be to have her as part of my life forever. She's amazing.

Em Schulz: Aww.

Christine Schiefer: It is not hard to see that whoever scores Jodi, whether it be me or someone else, is gonna win the wife lotto.

Em Schulz: Oh.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I know. Very romantic. Um, however, as their relationship progressed, Travis' friends started to become uncomfortable about Jodi and some of her behaviors.

Em Schulz: Oh. Oh.

Christine Schiefer: They described her behavior as "disturbing" and "possessive." Um...

Em Schulz: What?

Christine Schiefer: One night, Travis and Jodi were in a hot tub with friends. Uh, and these friends later said, Jodi would repeatedly climb on top of Travis and straddle him and start making out with him and kissing his neck in front of everyone. And he kept pushing her off and being like, hey, don't, that's weird. We're hanging out with my friends, please stop. And she would not let it go. And she would not stop.

Em Schulz: Oh my.

Christine Schiefer: She started following Travis everywhere he went, to the extreme. He would go to the bathroom and she would stand outside the door and just wait...

Em Schulz: Oh my.

Christine Schiefer: For him to be done. Um, if he tried to talk to somebody privately, she would follow along to eavesdrop. She was often caught eavesdropping around corners when he was just chatting with his friends. She refused to let him speak to other women. Uh, she read all of his texts and emails and she would forward them to herself to read later. Uh, her possessiveness became so extreme that his friends actually worried about his safety because she had become more of a stalker than a romantic partner. And...

Em Schulz: Interesting.

Christine Schiefer: They tried to convince Travis something was wrong, but Travis kept defending Jodi saying like, no, she just really loves me. She's just really caring and sweet and we just really care about each other. But...

Em Schulz: So he's really not, uh, like, I mean, obviously he's aware 'cause people are bringing it up to him, but he's not feeling the same way at all.

Christine Schiefer: Exactly. It's almost like he... He does eventually. Um.

Em Schulz: But right now, he's under her spell.

Christine Schiefer: Exactly. He's got those rose-colored glasses that have not been...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Uh, taken off yet.

Em Schulz: Shattered.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: They've not been shattered into a million pieces yet. Um, one of Travis' friends named Sky Hughes told ABC news, I said, "Travis, I'm afraid we're gonna find you chopped up in her freezer." From very early on, she was completely obsessed with him. And like, I can sort of see, I can sort of see why somebody would be like, no, no, she's just, you know, 'cause if they're behaving toward you like they really love you, it's, it's like that.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: Classic toxic...

Em Schulz: No, I get it.

Christine Schiefer: Abusive thing where it's like, oh, well I'm special. Like they really think I'm special. But you don't see the danger quite yet, you know? Um...

Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, so far, like, because you are so agreeable to all of it, you haven't seen like a shift. You haven't seen the, the twitchy eye.

Christine Schiefer: The dark side.

Em Schulz: When all of a sudden you reject it.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And, umm, so that's kind of where he was at this point. And when I mentioned earlier, like how she was caught eavesdropping, I have one example for you. So, uh, on one occasion, uh, some of Travis's friends were discussing Jodi's behavior with him. And one of them realized Jodi was like standing right by the door listening and mouthed it to Travis, like, she's right outside, or like Jodi's out the door or something like that. And he, he was like, yeah, right. Come on, you're being so paranoid and ridiculous. He turns to prove his friend wrong, opens a door, and Jodi is standing there like listening to their conversation.

Em Schulz: Like In a sitcom, like has a glass on the door.

Christine Schiefer: Like literally with her ear on the fucking door. And according to the friend who saw this said, she was standing there looking "angry and evil, which is...

Em Schulz: Oh shit.

Christine Schiefer: So frightening. Umm, but meanwhile, Jodi felt like totally warranted in her possessiveness, which like, I feel like anybody in this position would say they were warranted. Like otherwise, why would they be doing it? But whatever.

Em Schulz: Right. Right. Like, you, you have to, you must think that you're like the victim in some way.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You have to believe that it's worth doing otherwise, why are you doing it? Umm, and so according to her, Travis was cheating on her and texting multiple women during their relationship. And I mean, this is just like, we can just see this from a mile away, like classic...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Abusive scenario. The couple broke up only five months into their kind of hot and heavy and really up and down relationship. But Jodi was not quite ready to let go. Uh, she moved the 270 miles to Mesa, Arizona to be close to him, even though they had broken up. Umm, huge red flag in my book. And according to Jodi, she and Travis agreed to just be friends, but when she moved closer, he started inviting her over and they began secretly sleeping with each other. So they were still having sex.

Em Schulz: Whoops.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: She knew Travis's garage code. And so she would sometimes just let herself in and they would hook up or she would just come stop by. And sometimes Travis would be annoyed or angry that she just like burst into his house. Other times he'd be like, it's fine, just stay over. Umm, but at the same time, he was dating a new woman named Lisa. Now...

Em Schulz: Oh God. Poor Lisa. She's about to be in the middle of it.

Christine Schiefer: Ah, yeah. So I wonder how Jodi felt. Well, I don't wonder 'cause she felt fucking pissed off.

Em Schulz: Yeah. The, the thing I question least in my life is how Jodi felt.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I know. It's like the only thing we can probably all agree on in this world. Yeah. Umm, the only sure answer I have in, in, in the universe. Uh, so Jodi would sometimes go to Lisa's house, knock on all her doors and windows, like try to frighten her. Umm.

Em Schulz: Yikes.

Christine Schiefer: In the night. And then...

Em Schulz: You know why this probably sounds so familiar is because the last story, or one of the last stories you covered was like...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, that's true too.

Em Schulz: Uh, was the like the stalker ex or so we thought.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there was one recently. There was one recently, yeah. That then was also made into like a big Netflix. Yeah. That could very well be that. Umm someone slashed Travis' tires twice. And even though we don't have proof who did it, all his friends were pretty damn convinced that Jodi was the culprit. Uh, she eventually said she became uncomfortable in this relationship because it was never going to progress to anything more serious. So she moved back to California to be close to family.

Christine Schiefer: But when Travis told his version of the story it was that he had broken up with Jodi, not the other way around. Either way, roughly eight months after moving to Mesa, Jodi moved the five hours back to California. So Travis' friends were very relieved at this point. They just had bad, bad feelings about Jodi from the beginning. And Travis honestly seemed to feel the same way. Like how you were saying, it's almost like he'd finally realized that his friends were probably onto something with Jodi. Uh, he actually told his friends, Jodi finally left. I'm getting my life back. So I think he finally realized how much she had sort of taken over his life.

Em Schulz: Yeah. You can't tell until it's over. And then you're like, oh, wow. I was really enmeshed, enmeshed in that.

Christine Schiefer: It's almost like until you're too late, until it's too late for... Or not too late, that's not the right word, but like, until things have been damaged enough that you're like, oh, I can see the trail. Like I can...

Em Schulz: How much, how much your individuality was damaged or something.

Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. Or your relationships...

Em Schulz: Or put on hold.

Christine Schiefer: With friends or like other people you're dating. It's almost like he realized suddenly, oh, well, umm, my tires have been slashed. My girlfriend is getting harassed all night. Like, yeah. Things are not as good as I thought they were with Jodi. Umm, however, they were both in this kind of, I mean, we've seen this before too, and probably experienced it in this like toxic, like he still was kind of mesmerized by her. There was still a draw. Umm, she was very sexual and I think and like kind of used that. And I think he was very drawn to that as well. Umm, and they had very strong physical connection.

Em Schulz: I mean, as someone who has been with quote toxic exes, not even quote full blown Toxics exes.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Let's just like, yeah, let's just umbrella toxic and everyone can kind of guess what we mean by that.

Em Schulz: Yeah. It's just like wildly awful exes. Uh, I like, I like can sadly admit that like, I still like went back to them a few times before it was over because like there is still the, I don't know if it's the lust or the lure or what, or just like the missing the good memories or...

Christine Schiefer: So I actually once heard a really interesting take on that by a psychiatrist who said, umm, a lot of times when people are seeking that kind of honeymoon phase, like that, like staying up and like that romance and if, uh, you know, you wonder like when you're in a stable relationship and that kind of goes away. Like why? And you know, people are drawn back to that like passion. A lot of...

Em Schulz: The limerence, it's called limerence.

Christine Schiefer: The limerence. A lot of times that limerence is because there's instability in a relationship. And so it's almost like you're playing that game of like either cat and mouse or you're not completely secure in the relationship. And so then the highs are higher and the lows are lower. And so a lot of times it just indicates like, even if you've been together for years, if you're still in that honeymoon phase and you and still have a lot of that like passion worked up, a lot of times it's because you're in a kind of not so healthy place. Like you're not stable necessarily.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, this is just one psychiatrist's take. But I thought that was very interesting, 'cause I'm like, oh, that makes sense why when you're in a long-term relationship and you feel happy, maybe those honeymoon like butterfly feelings don't last forever because a lot of times that's just when you're playing that chase at the beginning, you know, and.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Like you keep trying... Like the way it was described to me by all my therapists over years was, uh, is that you're, especially by the way, this is not like, uh, you know, a cause or, you know, don't no one read into it, but it's just like an additive problem for me is that with my ADHD and I'm constantly chasing dopamine rushes. It's extra not great. On top of my like own childhood trauma and my own like, ways of handling relationships, the way it's been described to me is that I'm constantly looking for the chase.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.

Em Schulz: And I'm constantly looking for the rush. And so a lot of times in my tumultuous breakups, it was almost like foreplay to get back together... So it was like just the...

Christine Schiefer: Well that's what they say...

Em Schulz: It was almost like fun, like in some sick way to like...

Christine Schiefer: Yes. It is.

Em Schulz: Have the good feeling back.

Christine Schiefer: It's because it's like a heightened feeling. It's like more intense.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Because it's like, oh, it's like.

Em Schulz: Exactly.

Christine Schiefer: More was at stake, more was at risk. Umm, you almost lost the person. You got them back, you won, so to speak. It, there's just like so much built in there. I just read, umm, uh, Come As You Are by, umm, what's her name?

Em Schulz: Oh, Allison read that.

Christine Schiefer: It's so, so good. Uh, like I, I have had so many people recently recommend it to me. I finally read it. Umm, Emily Nagoski, and she did such a good job describing that. Like why people claim, you know, that like post-fight or breakup sex is the best or like post-fight. It's because you are like playing that game. You know? You're not, you're not in that like stable, like healthy, trusting place necessarily. A lot of times it's like tumultuous and that makes the feelings so much more heightened. Umm.

Em Schulz: You know I, I was, uh, now that we're just like diving into our own...

Christine Schiefer: I know right?

Em Schulz: Personal things, uh, but one of my biggest issues in like having a healthy relationship, which Allison and I have talked about and I talked about in therapy, blah, blah, blah. But like, I'm very open with the fact that like, I had a really chaotic childhood and I, there was a lot of ups and downs and so my normal is high highs and low lows, but my normal, it has never been like, just like a safe constant stream of steadiness.

Em Schulz: And the fact that I ended up with the most steady person in some ways is very good because she's able to like, just tolerate my bullshit. But it really freaks me out because there are a lot... Our biggest issue most of the time is that I'm bored in the relationship. And not bored in a way where it's, umm, an insult to Allison. I'm just not used to there not being drama. I'm not...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em Schulz: And so when I, when I feel like there's not drama I almost feel like there's something wrong. And so one of the biggest lessons I've had to learn in my like actual healthy relationship is that like, it's okay for there to not be a big feeling happening all the time.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. I feel like that's so important. And I had to learn that exact same lesson and look who I'm with. I think you and I probably have that in common. Umm.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: But yeah, you can find, I mean listen, have a toddler, they add all sorts of drama. Okay. Maybe that's why people are like.

Em Schulz: I'm good. I actually, you know...

Christine Schiefer: You're good?

Em Schulz: Now that I'm thinking about it. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah? Okay. I mean, you can try a dog first. Dog's a good step. Uh, that's drama too. Uh, think about Geo, big drama.

Em Schulz: I will give you, umm, just a, a quick update that, uh, we're not at any time soon, but we're starting construction, which means we're working on a fence. And once we have a fence, the next big thing is...

Christine Schiefer: You need to understand how loudly I will scream when that happens.

Em Schulz: There will be, that will, you're right, that will be my high highs and my low lows because...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, you gonna have high highs, you're buying a... I mean, there is a lot of high highs and low lows in life. You don't need a partner, a relationship to do that for you. I can do that for you, quite frankly, if you'd like.

Em Schulz: I, I'm just gonna go to Allison and be like, you know what? Things have been too calm. Let's really rock our shit. Let's get a...

Christine Schiefer: Like, let's just like blow shit up, you know? Yeah. We've got a good thing going. Let's ruin it. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Please let me feel something.

Christine Schiefer: I just felt this collective like, oh, like relatableness from all of like, probably 90% of our listeners. I feel like that is a very relatable thing. Like self-sabotage, you know, because.

Em Schulz: Oh yeah.

Christine Schiefer: You feel kind of...

Em Schulz: That's what I was...

Christine Schiefer: Stuck or bored or whatever.

Em Schulz: Up until Allison, that's what I was known for. I loved self sabotaging and now...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's a very common millennial trait, unfortunately.

Em Schulz: Yeah. And so now I, in in my own relationships, I have to be like, oh no, it's... Because I always thought of it as boredom in a bad way, but I always, but it wasn't boredom. It was like, oh, no calm. Calm is like.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. Yes. Calm. Yeah.

Em Schulz: And calm just felt so off to me.

Christine Schiefer: Unnatural. Yeah.

Em Schulz: It feels unnatural. It feels like something must be wrong because, we're calm and we're good.

Christine Schiefer: That's such a very poignant way of looking at it. Thank you for sharing...

Em Schulz: Uh, well, I don't know. Someone will judge me, but someone will feel like I helped them. So.

Christine Schiefer: I hope so.

Em Schulz: I could break even.

Christine Schiefer: I feel like you helped me. That was very, I thought that was actually pretty enlightening, so thank you. Umm.

Em Schulz: Oh yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Anyway, I'm gonna have to journal about that later. Okay. So unfortunately I had therapy yesterday. Oh, I need to talk to you now. Okay. So anyway, as I'm saying, uh, he finally felt like he was getting his life back, like things were on track. Umm, but like I said, he was struggling to move on too. He would keep texting Jodi in secret and they would have these kind of like flirtatious texts back and forth.

Christine Schiefer: Jodi said they made plans to travel together again in May, but later when people looked back at their texts, they actually realized that Jodi and Travis had this intense argument. It's unclear how the fight started, but the, it got so heated that Travis called Jodi a sociopath, uh, and he told her, you don't know what horror you have caused me. And Jodi replied, it wasn't her intention to harm him, but regardless, Travis was like, you know what, no, I'm done. I don't wanna see you anymore. So instead she made new plans. Doesn't this sound like just such a gem of a person to start dating one of Travis's colleagues who also worked at Prepaid Legal Incorporated.

Em Schulz: Whoopsies. That's gonna be crazy.

Christine Schiefer: How convenient, drama. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of drama. So some people saw similarities between Travis and this colleague. He was also a charismatic, successful, up and coming salesperson, uh, described as another rising star, just like Travis. And that's a quote. So I mean, he really is kind of like, his little doppelganger and she's just jumped ship to this guy.

Em Schulz: Yeah. And she's like, I'm gonna ruin him too. Something like that.

Christine Schiefer: And she's like, now I'm gonna show Travis I can find somebody else. You know? So the two of them had been texting for a while, and so Jodi decided to hit the road to see him on June 2nd. Meanwhile, Travis was supposed to go to Cancun, Mexico on a work retreat. And he actually had invited a woman he had just started seeing named Mimi. And so the two of them were gonna go to Cancun together. Hey, how do you think Jodi feels about that one?

Em Schulz: Hey, how about I don't even worry about guessing 'cause it's...

Christine Schiefer: Let's not even, yeah. That's not even worth our time...

Em Schulz: Yeah. I have a feeling she feels a little icky about it.

Christine Schiefer: She Feels not great. Umm, so his friends arrived in Cancun first and they tried to make plans ahead of time saying like, oh, Travis, when you get down here, like, I mean, I'm only guessing at this, but let's go to Senor Frog's. That's just what I'm assuming happened in the text chain. I can't, please don't. I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize the pitcher had landed.

Em Schulz: The, the pitcher I had taken a big old gulp out of my flower pot, and that was, umm, that was, yeah. Senor Frog's is.

Christine Schiefer: Maybe second guess everybody. Second guess Em's advice of drinking out of a flower pot later. Umm, it seems like.

Em Schulz: Or a pitcher, whatever it's called. But that really, it did me dirty just now. Umm.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I'm so sorry.

Em Schulz: Which like, by the way, the only other place you drink out of pitchers is probably Senor Frog's.

Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say guaranteed a margarita in one of those bad boys. Like, I could take that down in one swig. For sure. For sure.

Em Schulz: It, I almost lost my life on camera because I almost drowned in London Fog, but that was worth it.

Christine Schiefer: What a way to go. Umm, anyway, I'm so sorry, but I can only imagine that's what they were texting. I have no idea. But they were texting and trying to make plans for when he and Mimi came down. Umm, and he wasn't responding, which was very unlike him. He was always very in touch with his friends. He was always active in the group chat and they just knew, you know how like sometimes you just know.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: They just knew something was very wrong. And so when, uh, so remember this is a work conference. So they, there was a meeting that Travis was supposed to lead, and it was over a conference call. And when Travis didn't show up for this conference call that he was leading, they were like, something has happened because he has never like been a no-show, especially to something work-wise that he's in charge of.

Em Schulz: Right.

Christine Schiefer: Like, this is just not him. So they're getting really freaked out, but now they're in Mexico, right? So they, there's only a few people back in town who can go check on him. And so they ask these friends to go look. So back in Arizona, Mimi, this new girl he's seeing, and two friends drive to Travis's house to check on him, and they know the garage door code as well. So they let themselves in and strangely enough they run into his roommate Zach Billings, and they're like, oh, hey Zach, we're looking for Travis. And the date that this occurred on, by the way, was June 9th. And nobody had heard from him for five days.

Christine Schiefer: So they're like, we haven't heard from him in five days. And he's like, oh, that's weird. No, Travis is in Cancun. And they were like, no, he's supposed to be, or he is supposed to be going, but we have not heard from him. So there's like this mix up where the roommate thinks, oh, he's just not here 'cause he is in Cancun, which is why he wasn't worried. Right.

Em Schulz: Right, right.

Christine Schiefer: So they all four go to Travis's room together.

Em Schulz: Oh God.

Christine Schiefer: I just imagine being this roommate and you've just been living there for five days with no fucking idea. Umm, they find a massive puddle of blood on the floor of Travis's room and they follow the blood along the hallway to the bathroom. And that is where they find Travis in the shower dead.

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah and...

Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm imagining that there was, was that, umm, there was another story. Maybe this is also why it feels familiar to you. 'Cause I feel like last year or two years ago, there was this big story that came out of like a roommate finding out like a week later that their roommate was dead in the other room and like just didn't know.

Christine Schiefer: Are you thinking of, umm, the, uh, the, the, the the, Oh my God. Gimme one moment. Are you thinking of Amanda Knox?

Em Schulz: No. I don't know. I honestly don't know anymore. No, there was, I think maybe I found it on Reddit or something. I mean.

Christine Schiefer: I'm sure it's not the first time. Yeah.

Em Schulz: I feel like I, I recently heard of a story like this where the roommate found out like days later or a week later or something. That's gotta just be so tragic. Like.

Em Schulz: What a nightmare.

Em Schulz: Yeah. The therapy you gotta go through after is crazy.

Christine Schiefer: Oh. And then just to, like, you'd probably, I mean, at least I, I can't speak for everyone else, but I feel like I would be constantly second guessing myself from then on. Like, do I even know what's going on around me? Like, I would be so unsure.

Em Schulz: I would be the way that I would immediately become hyper aware, everything out of fear that I'd miss something again, is crazy.

Christine Schiefer: And like not trust my own instincts anymore. I'd be like, how did I not know that? You know?

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Umm, there's probably a lot of guilt wrapped up in that. So they follow this blood, they find Travis in the shower, he's dead, and he is just, there's blood everywhere. Umm, and so they call 911. And I listened to, umm, red-handed, they did an episode on this incidentally in spring of 2020. And at the beginning of the episode they were like, I listened to this like in the last couple days, but in the beginning of the episode they're like, well, with all this crazy stuff happening in the world. And I'm like, oh, no.

Em Schulz: Oh no girl.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wait, girl. Wait girl wait.

Em Schulz: It's gonna be worse.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm, and I know ours are even dumber. Like I'm sure this will end next week when we go to Seattle. Yeah. Uh.

Em Schulz: Well, as, as you're... I like had the story you're telling, you heard someone talking about the beginning of COVID and now you're telling it while you're dealing with a symptom of long COVID.

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Right. I'm like, yeah.

Em Schulz: Creepy.

Christine Schiefer: I'm just falling apart over here. Like if only you knew, we're all falling apart four years later. Umm, wow. Four years later. Sorry. That's mind boggling. Okay.

Em Schulz: It's terrifying. Yeah, I know.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just un just untenable. Okay. So they call 911 and I mentioned, sorry, I mentioned the red-handed episode for a reason, not just COVID because on the red-handed episode, they played part of the 911 call that the friends make to dispatch. And like, it's just, I know that I've talked about this before, but there's something so surreal and like disturbing. Like I have a really hard time listening to 911 calls because I'm...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: There's just something like really, and I think My Favorite Murder talked about this ages ago, but there's just something about like you knowing in the future like what they're kind of seeing and experiencing and like maybe how much worse it really is than what they think. And then like hearing them kind of piecing it together and...

Em Schulz: Well, it's also to hear like I... Well, I guess not in this case, but in other cases I've overheard, umm, dispatch calls where someone like someone broke into the house or something.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: And like to hear, to hear those, even if they end up fine to hear.

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: True human fear.

Christine Schiefer: The terror.

Em Schulz: And there's, and there's nothing you can do about it. Feel, it's, that's also talk about unnatural.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah maybe it's... Right. And maybe it's partially also like knowing that like, oh, you're just witnessing someone experiencing long-lasting trauma.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Like, you're just...

Em Schulz: You're witnessing someone witnessing like something that will shape them forever.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. For the rest of their lives. Yeah. There's something like so, uh, so scary about that to me. But they played this clip and so you can hear the friends kind of saying like, we don't know what happened, but there's blood everywhere. And uh, the, the dispatcher says like, oh, you know, was he suicidal? And they say no. Umm, they say, did he have any breakups recently? They say, yeah, but I don't think he would have killed himself over that. And dispatcher says, okay, well was there anyone that, umm, you know, who might have wanted to hurt him? And she literally, like, without missing a beat goes Yeah, her name's Jodi.

Em Schulz: Oh shit.

Christine Schiefer: And so the friends were already like, we know who we think did this, but like, they're still so shell-shocked. And uh, they ask, you know, how many people are in the house? They say four. And they say, we need you to leave the house immediately. Like just back out of the house, you know, and they sent, uh, they sent investigators to the scene, and when they arrived, investigators could immediately tell that there had been a major struggle. Uh, at the scene.

Christine Schiefer: Travis had fought desperately for his life, and the attack was so brutal, umm, that they believed it was very personal and that Travis must have known his murderer. And autopsy revealed that Travis suffered at least 27 stab wounds. Umm, he was also shot in the head.

Em Schulz: Oh my god.

Christine Schiefer: And then the murderer cut his throat with a knife and the laceration was so deep he was almost decapitated.

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: But the cause of death was a final stab wound directly into the center of his chest, which caught his heart.

Em Schulz: Holy shit.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. Like just beyond.

Em Schulz: That's so f-ing brutal. Yeah. I mean, I mean, do they think that, 'cause he was still kind of seeing her on the side, do you think that he was trying to hook up with her one last time before he left for a week to go to Cancun and that's when she just kind said, you're not going anywhere with her?

Christine Schiefer: That's probably, you're probably pretty spot on. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: And we don't know like the details of, of, well, we'll get into it, the theories, but yes I think you're definitely spot on. So just hours after Travis's friends discovered this terrible scene, umm, Mesa Police got a call from someone named Jodi Arias and she says, hi, I am just checking in about like this guy Travis that I know, umm, a friend told me that there's police outside of his house. I just wanna like call and check if everything's okay with him and.

Em Schulz: Returning to the scene of the crime.

Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly.

Em Schulz: Literally so guilty.

Christine Schiefer: It's so fucking dumb. So his friends are like, umm, yeah, Jodi's his stalker. Like, you need to take her into custody. So Jodi agreed to be fingerprinted. Umm, she traveled to Arizona. First of all, the fucking audacity traveled to Arizona for his memorial service. Umm, and then while she was there, agreed to be fingerprinted. But she insisted that when Travis was killed, she was on a trip to Utah, so she wasn't even around. Umm, but Ryan, the man Jodi was supposed to meet in Utah, told investigators that, oh no, we were gonna meet June 3rd. And she never showed.

Christine Schiefer: So they're like, okay, and what did you do? He said, I tried to call her multiple times. They all went to voicemail. And finally she arrived a full day late on June 4th.

Em Schulz: Hello.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Where have you been? She told investigators, uh, and Ryan at the time that her phone had died and she got lost, which if it were me, is a valid excuse, in this case, not so much. Then forensic investigators, umm, found something interesting in the washing machine. I laugh because it's just absurd. They find a digital camera in the washing machine.

Em Schulz: What?

Christine Schiefer: It had gone through a full wash cycle.

Em Schulz: So in theory it shouldn't even work.

Christine Schiefer: Jodi was trying to fucking break this camera by putting it through the...

Em Schulz: Right. I assume like she's trying to... No evidence. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine Schiefer: So, but she leaves the camera there in the washing machine and... Dummy. And the camera does not work, but the memory card is fine. So they pull the memory card out and they find a bunch of photos and guess what the date, the timestamp is June 4th, which is the day of the murder. Bloop. And the day of my birthday. Yay. Umm.

Em Schulz: Yay.

Christine Schiefer: Yay. And the day of my dermatology appointment.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Anyway, not only that, but there were photos of... Okay, so this is where it gets wild. There, here are some of the examples of what was on this memory card. There are sexy photos. So there are photos of him, of her naked. There's photos of him in bed. There's photos of him naked in the shower.

Em Schulz: Oh. Like right before.

Christine Schiefer: Two minutes later, there is a blurry photo of his dead body in the shower on this memory card.

Em Schulz: So wait, the entire murder happened in less than two minutes?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: And then with her bloody fingers probably grabbed the camera again to take a picture.

Christine Schiefer: They aren't sure if the photo was taken intentionally or was just in the scuffle, you know, took a photo because a lot of the photos are very blurry. There's one where you can even see part of her leg as if she's dragging his body and they think like she had dropped the camera and it had taken a photo. They're, they're not really clear, you know.

Em Schulz: It's that, honestly, I, not that I was really thinking about like the timeline, but I would think killing someone that brutally had to be longer than two minutes.

Christine Schiefer: Two Minutes.

Em Schulz: That means it was.

Christine Schiefer: I can only imagine that she had him incapacitated so quickly in like a flurry and then just, I mean, it's horrible.

Em Schulz: I almost wonder he was shot too, right? You said.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.

Em Schulz: I kind of wonder if like, she was holding the gun in one hand and the camera in another, and then went smile. Like I know that's, I know that's fucked up, but there's no way... I'm trying to think like, how do you fit that much activity in two minutes.

Christine Schiefer: The second photo was him already dead with his stab wounds with the blood. Like that was a, that was...

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So all of that kind of attack happened within a matter of minutes.

Em Schulz: That's insane. That's, I mean, I, I don't know why that's blowing my mind more the speed at which it happened, but it's just, it... Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: And so...

Em Schulz: I don't know how to feel. I, I don't know.

Christine Schiefer: With that timeline too, it's, it's like she can't even argue, oh no, that timestamp on the camera is wrong. Right. Like, it must have been from days before, because then why two minutes later is he dead on the same camera? You know? You can't even argue that.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: And so they think probably the photos were taken accidentally, some of them, because they were kind of, and I mean, you know, I recommend you really think before you do this, but you can see the photos online. But just please be cautious if that's, you know, just use your, use your best judgment on that, uh, folks. But in any case, um, you could, you couldn't see his face in the photo, but you could see the, the wounds, the blood, um...

Em Schulz: Oh my God. And they were also obviously dated June 4th, just right after this shower pic of him just naked in the shower. So Jodi's, I mean, this is when I'm like, you fucking dumb narcissist. Her hair, a long hair, her blood and a giant palm print in blood of hers were all found at the scene.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Big dummy. Also, like, why would you then go happily get your fingers printed?

Em Schulz: Literally.

Christine Schiefer: You're like, think. Yeah.

Em Schulz: And then just leave the camera there. I mean, I just can't get over this. She's so stupid. Um...

Christine Schiefer: You know, I will, I will say before we move on the back to like the, the how short it happened, that at least tells us that there was probably no pain. Like, I mean, hopefully. Not prolonged. I mean, he did fight back. There were were defensive wounds that she sustained, but, but very, like not many. And I, it seems like, um, the attack was more just her anger like getting out.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Rather than like a fight between them, like you said, like, it seems like it was over pretty quick. Like he had passed pretty quickly. But.

Em Schulz: Yeah, that's, I mean, that's all you can hope for at that point, is like, just like, let there be no pain.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That it happened quickly. I know.

Em Schulz: Anyway, sorry, I just wanted before...

Christine Schiefer: No, yeah. It's, it's...

Em Schulz: I was gonna think about it if I didn't say it. So.

Christine Schiefer: It's a good point. You know, at least it wasn't a prolonged torture or something. Um, but yes. Just still so, so outrageous that her entire fucking hand print was basically left at the scene. Um now investigators also explain, so this is a fun fact for everyone, it's common to find the attacker's blood, uh, at the scene of a stabbing, because it's very easy to cut yourself with a knife while you're stabbing someone, especially if your hand slips.

Em Schulz: Sure.

Christine Schiefer: You know, and you've cut your hand. Um, which fun fact she did, although she claimed she had cut it on a glass, uh, that she broke at a bar called Margaritaville that she claimed existed in the town she lived in, which it did not. And she made it all up. So she's not even good at making up stories.

Em Schulz: She should have tried Senor frogs.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Honestly, that would've been more believable. So, of course, all this evidence is immediately enough to arrest Jodi. And five weeks after Travis was found dead detectives traveled to her town to arrest her. And police told interviewers that Jodi did not seem surprised when she was picked up. However, when she was taken in to custody, she asked if she could get her purse because she wanted to put on some makeup before her mugshot.

Em Schulz: What is her deal? Like I mean.

Christine Schiefer: She's a lunatic.

Em Schulz: Obviously so much, but like, what the hell is her deal?

Christine Schiefer: She's like just a complete narcissist. She, she literally in the mugshot photos is like smiling pretty for the camera and has makeup on that she just put on for the photo. It's bizarro.

Em Schulz: She's got some nerve.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, the way they described it too in red-handed was like, it's like she's creating the narrative for her future biopic. Like, she's like, she knows this is gonna be on TV. And she's like, almost showcasing.

Em Schulz: That's such a great point.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Like, she was like, if they're gonna make a documentary, I might as well look good. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: I might as well like show my best angles. Yeah. So she told investigators, um, you know what? I lied. I actually was there the day Travis died. First of all. They're like, yeah, we know, but okay, go on. [laughter] Yeah. And she said, and guess what? I witnessed the murder, but it wasn't me. Um, so that's...

Em Schulz: So you're here admitting you were exactly in the room when he died.

Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. And watched it.

Em Schulz: And didn't tell anybody.

Christine Schiefer: And didn't tell anybody.

Em Schulz: And none of that. Okay.

Christine Schiefer: None of that.

Em Schulz: Sure.

Christine Schiefer: But she watched it happen. According to Jodi she called Travis on her way to Utah to meet this guy, Ryan. And he said, Hey, why don't you just make a stop to in Arizona to see me? So she said, fine, I will. And she arrived in the middle of the night, they had sex. And then in the morning, she was playfully taking photos of Travis in the shower. When suddenly two masked intruders, a man and a woman broke into the house. They ambushed Travis and Jodi. There was a loud noise, and Travis fell to his hands and knees on the bathroom floor. Jodi said the man left the room, and she tried to charge the woman who had a knife. When asked by an interviewer whether whether the woman had stabbed Travis, Jodi said, I could only assume yes, but I didn't see her stabbing him. The man came back into the room with a gun, and he held a gun to her forehead. They argued about whether or not to kill Jodi as well. And the man pulled the trigger, but nothing happened. So seizing the moment, Jodi ran past them both, picked up her purse, got in her car, and drove away.

Em Schulz: Of course.

Christine Schiefer: And...

Em Schulz: And in that car, she thought, oh, no, I left my camera...

Christine Schiefer: In the washing machine.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: But don't worry, the bad guys totally grabbed the camera on their way out to get pictures of him dead.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. To drag him outta the... Exactly. Exactly. And so they were like, oh, so all this happened. You escaped with your life and just watched your boyfriend or this guy you're sleeping with get shot or stabbed, and you didn't call anyone.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Then you later acted surprised five days after it to call the police and do a wellness check.

Christine Schiefer: That's the other thing. That's the other thing. When she called the police and said, I heard there's police, did something happen? It's like, okay, but now you can't pretend.

Em Schulz: You're right.

Christine Schiefer: Like you were there and you know all about it. It's just so weird. Like her story doesn't even remotely line up. Um...

Em Schulz: Not that slick.

Christine Schiefer: No, not slick at all. So she said she was in so much shock and denial that she just met up with Ryan on June 4th and just pretended none of it was real. Which I believe that. Like I believe she probably pretended none of it was real, but...

Em Schulz: Yeah, me too.

Christine Schiefer: Not because it happened to her, but because she did it.

Em Schulz: Yeah. And part of me doesn't think it's because she was so dissociating from...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: From the situation. I think she just, it didn't even phase her.

Christine Schiefer: She just was like, okay, that's done.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Um, and also I'll add too, um, she claimed Travis was alive when she left. So it's like, so he was alive and you didn't call for an ambulance.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: You just left him there. Like, the story doesn't track at all. Um, she just went home to California until she heard the news about police cars. So she said in her shock that it was difficult to remember that she was even at Travis's house or how she got there. But the evidence, of course, is speaking loudly against her. Um, incidentally, this is a little odd. A week before the murder, a 25 caliber handgun disappeared from her grandparents' house after someone broke in.

Em Schulz: How nutty.

Christine Schiefer: Isn't that just the weirdest coincidence? Of course it was the same caliber weapon used to shoot Travis. When Jodi arrived in Utah, Ryan, remember she arrived a day late. He had no idea where she was. Well, when she arrived, she had, uh, bandages all around her hands.

Em Schulz: Hmm, mm-Hmm. Suspicious.

Christine Schiefer: And she claimed she had broken a glass at Margaritaville, a place that did not exist, where she said it did. And when detectives asked about healed scratches on her hands, she told them they were from her cat. So ultimately, Jodi spent four years in prison awaiting trial while investigators built their case against her.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: I like how you did... I was gonna say you, you just skipped right into, anyway, she spent time in jail.

Christine Schiefer: Anyway, then she went to prison. She said, my cat did it. And then she went straight to prison and they said, nice try, but not really.

Em Schulz: You're going to jail. Write meow actually.

Christine Schiefer: Write meow. Um, this is purr-fect. Thank you so much. Uh.

Em Schulz: Yeah. You've cat to be kitten me. So I...

Christine Schiefer: You've cat to be kitten me. You tell a terrible lie. You're not good at this.

Em Schulz: I mean, does she... I, I do wonder in those moments in jail when like someone was sitting next to her in the cell, did she really think she was getting away with it? Like I... She had to have lost a li... Here's the thing. 'Cause I, I'm constantly terrified that I'm gonna end up in jail like I all the time. And it's mainly because I think I'm going to be like framed for a crime. I don't know why. It's a terrifying...

Christine Schiefer: I think that's a pretty common, uh, fear.

Em Schulz: It's a fear I live with all the time, though. Like, I'll be in the wrong place, wrong time.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: My DNA happens to be on something and now I'm guilty.

Christine Schiefer: I mean it's like, it's like everyone's worst fear, like being sent to prison without cause and getting wrapped up in something you didn't do. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you for validating me because I feel like...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes. I think that's very normal. I mean, Eva and I have talked about this.

Em Schulz: I feel like a loony tune with how often I'm scared about it.

Christine Schiefer: Oh no.

Em Schulz: But...

Christine Schiefer: We'll have a talk about it. Next Geo's trio.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: But I feel like I, if I were to commit a crime, 'cause that's a fun game I like to play with myself too. Yeah. I'm like, how could I get away with it? Fun fact. No.

Christine Schiefer: No.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: But, but I feel like I would lose sleep. I'd be so fucking paranoid if I didn't hit every, like, did I cover all my tracks? Did I cover all my tracks? And there's so many loose ends, there's no way I would've slept easy.

Christine Schiefer: Here's a fun fact. A narcissistic psychopath does not feel those kind of fears or feelings because they are convinced that they know better than everyone and are better than everyone. So.

Em Schulz: Okay. You might be on to something.

Christine Schiefer: At least you know you're not a sociopath.

Em Schulz: I just, I don't know how you can, especially for narcissists who just so pride themselves in being better than everybody else. I don't understand how you could think... Like wouldn't you think I'm the best at covering up a crime? Or do you just think I don't have to be the best, everyone else is just too stupid to figure out my very loose crime.

Christine Schiefer: That's, I think that's part of it. I think that's part of it, is like, there's not that thought. It's just like, whatever, I'll get out of it.

Em Schulz: Insane.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: She was really surprised.

Em Schulz: We talk about this... This has to be like the 10th time we've done this on this podcast.

Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. But it's shocking every time because it's like...

Em Schulz: It is.

Christine Schiefer: How, how does your mind work that way? It's just bizarre to me.

Em Schulz: I'll never understand.

Christine Schiefer: Like, I have a panic... I like get, I'm in tears when I have to call somebody on the telephone. Okay.

Em Schulz: To say hello. Not even anything bad.

Christine Schiefer: To say, say hi I just wanna check on my prescription. You know? So I like, I can't imagine how you live without any sort of fucking flutter in your heart about getting caught for a fucking murder. Um.

Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She just like, whatever. Spent four years waiting for the trial to begin. Um, I, I... [laughter] Okay. I'll get to the, well, yeah, I'll get to this. So the trial began in January, 2013, and in a CBS 48 hours interview, which aired that same month, Jodi told the interviewer, I've been sitting a lot in my cell. Okay. So this maybe, maybe this will speak to your questions about what she's sitting in a cell thinking.

Em Schulz: Sure.

Christine Schiefer: I've been sitting a lot in my cell thinking, what a waste. You know, I did have my whole future ahead of me. I had everything to lose and nothing to gain if I did kill Travis. It's like, yeah, then maybe you shouldn't have done it.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Ding, ding, ding.

Christine Schiefer: So, at the trial, um, Jodi... Okay, so let me first, before I even get to this point, add something that, um, I hadn't put in the notes, but really wanted to mention is that, uh, Jodi at first, if, if we're, and by the way, I am calling her a narcissistic sociopath because she has been labeled these things by medical professionals.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: And I also want to add that, um, to, uh, elaborate on that. She requested that she defend herself in trial.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: Like in court. Um, she wanted to defend herself in a first degree murder case. Um.

Em Schulz: Good luck.

Christine Schiefer: No legal background. Just decided she was gonna defend herself. And the first thing she did was...

Em Schulz: Did she say? Did she say Nuh-uh?

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: She said, Uh-uh. I didn't do it.

Em Schulz: Your Honor. You weren't even there.

Christine Schiefer: Your Honor. Um, hearsay [laughter] I'm trying to think of like one legal term. [laughter] Habeas corpus. Anybody.

Em Schulz: [1:57:39.6] ____.

[overlapping conversation]

Christine Schiefer: Habeas corpus. Um, so she claimed that she could, uh, defend herself at trial because she said, by the way, also, she claimed in an interview, no jury will ever convict me. Okay. Um, nice.

Em Schulz: I bet.

Christine Schiefer: Bold. But... [laughter] Um, and so she, they did allow her briefly to try and defend herself or represent herself, I'm sorry. And she brought, the first thing she brought to the table, she put into evidence these letters Travis had written her that were immediately noted as fakes. They were...

Em Schulz: Oh, excellent.

Christine Schiefer: Fake letters. So basically, the judge was like, your defense team's back on.

Em Schulz: Did the letters say, if I were to ever die in a heinous act...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right.

Em Schulz: I know it wouldn't be you, love you. XoXo.

Christine Schiefer: I know this crazy stalker is coming after me with a knife. Yeah. I don't know, but, and it's not you but... [laughter] I, I don't know. I don't know what they said, but I do know that they were faked and then in red handed they were like, Hey, do you know what musical she got that from? Apparently in Chicago, the musical, the lawyer's like, oh, I just always fake like journal entries and I've never lost a case or something like that. And so...

Em Schulz: Oh, really?

Christine Schiefer: They were like convinced that she had watched Chicago and been like, I can, I can [laughter] pull this off and like fake these letters from Travis that like, were very obviously fake. [laughter] So she only represented herself for a very brief time. And then they were like, you're, no, you need a fucking lawyer. Okay. So she got her lawyer back. Um, but when she did get on the stand, um, which was like pretty quickly, what a surprise that she insisted on getting on the stand pretty quickly. She suddenly had a totally different version of events. Another shocker.

Christine Schiefer: She claimed that, uh, she did kill Travis. However, it was because he was violently abusive and she had been the victim for many years. And this was just her, which I'm, it just like, it, this is like such an extra kick because in the gut, 'cause it's like there are so many people in abusive relationships and like, this is a very real thing that can happen in a, in an abusive relationship. And that's not what this is. You, you're...

Em Schulz: Oh yeah.

Christine Schiefer: You're taking away validity from people who are really going through something like this, which is just makes me so angry. Um.

Em Schulz: Yeah. I think we're lucky though that he was surrounded by so many people...

Christine Schiefer: Yes.

Em Schulz: Who could be like, you're literally, that's so far from the truth.

Christine Schiefer: No, you're right. Because nobody believed her.

Em Schulz: There are people though... But you're totally right, there are people in abusive relationships where one of the main ingredients is that you get isolated from everybody. So nobody would even know your side anymore. And you really could just totally have your character ripped apart and no one would defend you. But at least in his case, everyone was like, he was literally so cool. What are you talking about [laughter]?

Christine Schiefer: And she, she genuinely tried to tear down his reputation and she, she did in some ways really, really tarnish his reputation. I mean, I'll get to that. Um, but basically her claim now was that Travis was violently abusive. He hit her in places that the injuries wouldn't, wouldn't show, you know, that, that she, to hide them from his friends. She also testified that she had once caught Travis masturbating to child sexual abuse material.

Em Schulz: Oh my god.

Christine Schiefer: And, uh, Travis's family in the courtroom was just like, got punched by this because it's not true. And it's just like, of all things to say. One of his brothers even said, her mission was basically to murder my brother again for a second time by destroying his reputation. And he's in the church, church, the LDS church. And he like, he has like a very good reputation. And so, you know, and now he can't defend himself and she's just like making him out to be this monster. Um, you know, they had...

Em Schulz: And also if, if she's talking about like, oh, he hit me in areas where no one would see, I feel like she's telling on herself and she was already doing that to him.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, who knows?

Em Schulz: Like I feel like, it could have been.

Christine Schiefer: She was clearly abusive in other ways, you know? Um, I don't know if there was ever violence between them, but, aside from obvi the obvious, you know, but...

Em Schulz: Right, right.

Christine Schiefer: Um, one woman who dated Travis told ABC news that their arguments were rare. And if they did argue, Travis was never one to lose his temper, and was much more of like a let's talk things out kind of guy. And of course, that doesn't like explain away everything. I mean, you know, an abuser doesn't need to have like a violent history to be abusing their current partner. Um, but there was so much doubt on this story because like everything she had told had been a lie already, that it was almost like...

Em Schulz: Right.

Christine Schiefer: Nobody really believed her. Um, but she like took on this new persona as a survivor and a victim.

Em Schulz: Of course.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Well, the, 'cause the, it was the last thing that she hadn't been identified as yet.

Christine Schiefer: It was the last thing. No. You're totally right. Like, what else is there? It was like the final act. It was like, and if apparently she had watched Chicago, so, you know, I can see where she would get this fucking idea.

Em Schulz: She's a Broadway lover, she's a victim. She's all of it.

Christine Schiefer: She's all of it.

Em Schulz: Everything but a killer.

Christine Schiefer: Everything but.

Em Schulz: Oh wait she did admit to doing it though.

Christine Schiefer: She did that too. No, you're totally right. She said that on June 4th, 2008, she was taking photos in the shower with Travis's new camera when she accidentally dropped it. And Travis became enraged and attacked her so viciously that she believed he would kill her. So according to her defense team, she had no choice but to fight him to the death, to save her own life. And, uh, that...

Em Schulz: By her defense team, do you mean herself?

Christine Schiefer: Herself? No, she had been like assigned a lawyer. They were like, please stop, you're, this, you're making a mockery of the judicial system [laughter], um, with these fake ass letters. So Jodi had no choice but to fight Travis to the death. This is their claim. In May, 2013, five months after the trial began, the court finally announced their verdict. 34-year-old Jodi, or sorry, 34-year-old Jodi Arias was guilty of first degree murder. And hey, wouldn't you know it? She was shocked. Like shocked.

Em Schulz: I'm sure blown... Like to her knees blown away.

Christine Schiefer: Blown away. She said in an interview, I was really hoping the jury would see things for what they are. I didn't expect to walk away. I knew that was a possibility, a slim chance in a parallel universe somewhere, but certainly not first degree. And yeah, I'm like, you stabbed...

Em Schulz: Certainly not.

Christine Schiefer: Him 27 times. Like, what are you? In cold blood.

Em Schulz: And shot him.

Christine Schiefer: And shot him with your grandparents' gun, this is all premeditated. You went and got your gun. Like, okay, prosecution sought the death penalty, but jurors couldn't agree on that. And so the court was forced to declare a mistrial. Um, in October of 2014, a second jury also failed to agree upon the death penalty, and they didn't allow to try her for the third time. So on April 13th, 2015, she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Christine Schiefer: And she had actually originally stated in an interview that she would rather receive the death penalty because at least she'd be dead rather than in prison. Uh, but she later recanted that statement and said, nevermind, I'd rather be in prison. [laughter] Okay. Um.

Em Schulz: She was like, baiting like, you won't, you won't.

Christine Schiefer: Literally, I mean, yes, exactly. And they're like, all right, we'll try you again. She's like, well, I didn't really mean that. Actually, I take it back.

Em Schulz: JK girl, I, you know...

Christine Schiefer: I was just exaggerating. Um, and when asked whether Jodi suffered from any mental illness, a detective on the case said, no, she's not crazy. She calculated this completely. So, you know, I don't know, crazy is such a loosey goosey wild term that I don't think anyone can claim who is quote unquote crazy or not. But, um, you know, that's just one detective's input. Uh, however, Jodi filed an appeal to overturn her conviction, claiming media coverage of the case prevented her from getting a fair trial.

Christine Schiefer: That appeal was denied. And with the trial and sentencing done, Travis's family and friends were basically just left with like the pieces to clean up. And one of his brothers said, he should have a beautiful wife. He should have a beautiful home. He should have absolute happiness, and he should have that beautiful smile that was on his face all the time. And so, you know, he's remembered now as, um, a good guy and a, a happy friend and brother and MLM salesperson and oh, I meant to mention also he had a pug named Napoleon, um, which I thought was just the sweetest fun fact. But that is the story of the murder of Travis Alexander.

Em Schulz: Wow.

Christine Schiefer: I, I just remember so vividly watching the, the documentary with the, with the digital camera and thinking like how shocking that like, there was camera, there were pictures, you know, from the time it happened. So I know that I watched that back in 2017. I must have just like, put it to the side unless I did cover it.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: And everyone's like, we already heard this before, but [laughter], I don't think I have.

Em Schulz: I feel like I've never heard, I don't think I've heard this before.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't think I've covered it, um, until now. So yeah. But that's a big one. So it's about time anyway.

Em Schulz: And how wild that, I mean, I guess her literal hand print was in the blood, but if there, if she just remembered to grab the camera...

Christine Schiefer: Like how stupid?

Em Schulz: Like. Or not even that, just like, take out the memory card. Just like.

Christine Schiefer: Well that too, right. And it makes me wonder like, did she purposely just put it in the wash and think that'll work? Or did she forget? Was she panicked?

Em Schulz: She had to have forgotten because why would you wash it and then just still leave it? Like why wouldn't you just take it with you? I don't understand.

Christine Schiefer: Why would you wash it at all? Why wouldn't you just take it and wash it somewhere else?

Em Schulz: Why wouldn't you just burn it? I don't like, why wouldn't you just...

Christine Schiefer: It's just like anything probably is a smarter thing to do. I don't know.

Em Schulz: Anything. Like take a hammer to it. Like, or I mean, literally just get rid of the memory card. You could have done, you could've done nothing else. Just...

Christine Schiefer: You drop that in a sewer.

Em Schulz: It's just wild... It's just wild how it's like a smoking gun that absolutely didn't have to be.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: But like, I'm glad it, it happened. Like, I'm glad like there was a smoking gun.

Christine Schiefer: Exactly. It's like, at least it was an open and shut case. But, um, man, she really, uh, thought highly of herself. You know? It's just so sad too because like to have those, all those red flags and then for it to just end so horribly with someone's life cut short. It just really, it's just really sad.

Em Schulz: Um, I just looked up just in case, because we've talked so much about how this was like a, an an abusive relationship.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-Hmm.

Em Schulz: If you happened, if you or someone you know is in one, the National Domestic Violence hotline is 80-799-7233.

Christine Schiefer: Thank you.

Em Schulz: Um.

Christine Schiefer: Good call.

Em Schulz: And, uh, yeah. Yikes. That's...

Christine Schiefer: Yes.

Em Schulz: And listen to your homies, 'cause if they're saying something's up. Maybe...

Christine Schiefer: And listen to your...

Em Schulz: Keep it in your, the back of your mind.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. Just, just, yeah, just take care of yourself out there.

Em Schulz: Oh, Christine, do you, is, how's your eczema going? 'Cause I'd be itchy right now if I were you.

Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you, I feel like I've done that thing where I've just removed my soul from my husk. So I'm up, up there. [laughter] So.

Em Schulz: You know, we still have our, uh, uh, I was just looking at a lot of our, our fan mail over the years and our, our gifts that we've gotten. And, uh, I, I recently came across our cornhusk dolls.

Christine Schiefer: I love our cornhusks with our faces on them.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. People are so funny.

Em Schulz: Um, well, if you would like to hear us, uh, keep blabbering on, uh, you can join Patreon and check out our After Dark.

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.

Em Schulz: Is that what we're calling it? After Dark?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, After Dark. And there was a clip that made it to TikTok that I actually reposted 'cause that made me laugh. But of, uh, of us talking about when you discovered all the like, symbols that you can do on the [laughter] fucking... Yeah.

Em Schulz: Oh. You mean this?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And then I fucking tried and it was just like nothing happened. I was just sitting there like a big fucking dork.

Em Schulz: You looked like such a loser.

Christine Schiefer: It was so sad. But like a ton of people commented like, oh my God, I'm finally joining Patreon for this. And I'm like, for that? [laughter] Okay, well if that's what was gonna get you to join, I mean, come on over. We do a lot of dumber...

Christine Schiefer: It was that easy this whole time.

Em Schulz: Who knew? I, you know, now I'm just, it just, this is what I say to all of you who are joining.

Christine Schiefer: Stop it. In case you're wondering, Em is literally just like doing like a peace sign and then like, balloons up here and doing a...

Em Schulz: I keep being told the rock and roll sign does something, but I haven't seen it work yet. Anyway. Anyway, how about this? Everyone join Patreon.

Christine Schiefer: Fireworks are so stupid.

Em Schulz: Fireworks. Um, okay, well yeah, if you wanna hear us keep going on and on and never shutting up, then you can follow us on Patreon and maybe we'll discover some new things like the fireworks.

Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't that be fun?

Em Schulz: Tech in my computer? Um, all right. Uh, uh, and also, we haven't had our birthdays yet, but I think our, the next episode that comes out, we can talk about our birthdays.

[overlapping conversation]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh, I'm excited to hear. I mean, I'm just going to the doctor, but I'm excited to hear what you're doing. [laughter]

Em Schulz: I'm not gonna the doctor yet. I mean, I could get too crazy on my birthday...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah let's like be careful. Be careful.

Em Schulz: And end up at a doctor. So. Uh but anyway in case I don't see you until afterwards, happy birthday Christine.

Christine Schiefer: Happy birthday. I wuv you.

Em Schulz: Everyone else has already seen us celebrate, but for you. Happy birthday.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you. Happy birthday to you too.

Em Schulz: And.

Christine Schiefer: That's.

Em Schulz: Why.

Christine Schiefer: We.

Em Schulz: Drink.


Christine Schiefer