[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Halli Hallo!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So we just had to re... We had just had to stop our recording and start over, and both times, Christine enters the chat with "Halli Hallo!" and I don't know is... [laughter] What... Did you learn that from somewhere... Is that like a German thing?
Christine Schiefer: Well, it... Oh, it is a German thing, it's at least uh, how my grandmother always greets everybody. Umm. "Halli Hallo!"
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so, in my family, it's just like... It's our thing, every now and then somebody shouts out. Umm. That's all.
Em Schulz: Is, is that something... Is that something Leona says? 'Cause I can't imagine anything cuter than a little child saying that when she enters the room.
Christine Schiefer: No, she's just more focused on "ciao ciao" but...
Em Schulz: Ciao ciao.
Christine Schiefer: Ciao ciao ciao but uh, the other day, she said... She said, "Tschüssi!" And "Tschüssi" is like, "bye bye," like, uh it's just like another way of saying like ciao. Uh...
Em Schulz: Toodle-oo.
Christine Schiefer: So, she's developing a lot... Toodle-oo. Exactly. It's a lot of ways of develop... Or she's developed a lot of ways to say goodbye, which probably symbolically means something 'cause she doesn't often say [laughter] hello. But...
Em Schulz: Understood.
Christine Schiefer: Oh well. One thing at a time.
Em Schulz: Umm, Christine, why do you drink? Oh, look at you with your little water, my little rat. Look to you.
Christine Schiefer: I saw your post...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On Instagram about your little, your... About hydrating, right?
Em Schulz: And did you drink up?
Christine Schiefer: And then... I did and I read the comments and people were so moved. Not mo... Umm. I was... Okay. A lot of whoops. Let me not put words in their mouth. I was moved by the number of people who were so thankful for your remi... Weekly drink... Drink your water reminders. And I thought, wow, that's really awesome. Em is really changing the game. And as, umm as a reward for myself...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: For your selfless act...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I, uh, I bought myself, I had some rewards points on, on the shop app, where I shop... Where uh, from online shopping, so it rewards me for that. And this is not a promo, but they had this orange Stanley Cup and I just... I couldn't help myself and I bought it.
Em Schulz: Is that your first Stanley?
Christine Schiefer: No. I have one, but it's many years old now, and I didn't realize that they've upgraded the way that it works now, because this straw part... The one I do have is the reason that a computer has been destroyed. I've lost like lots of money, made lots of spills...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh because it just kept kind of toppling, this one is much more uh... These are... None of these are ads. I'm just saying, I umm, I umm, I am... I made excuses for myself to buy myself a new cup for hydrating. Umm...
Em Schulz: Very cool. But it's only...
Christine Schiefer: I have orange, which is like a Cincinnati color, so, you know, it felt like I had to.
Em Schulz: I have never had a Stanley Cup or a Yeti, or like any of the big, big ones. I've had, umm, I only have...
Christine Schiefer: But you don't like to drink out of them, right? Or is that not true?
Em Schulz: I, I would like to, but I just never... There's nothing more of a hassle to me than having to fill up an entire one of those with water, 'cause... Well, let me say, 'cause a Stanley Cup is not that big, and Yeti comes out that big. But the ones that I currently have, I get like the super duper jugs, where like, you only have to pour it once and then you have like, water for the rest of the day, and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you mean HydroJug, promo code Beach? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. One of mine is your HydroJug from your...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: From your show. Umm and so...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so thankful for that.
Em Schulz: And so as much as I love it, I get so overwhelmed, where I'm like, this is gonna take up, this is gonna be half my [0:03:38.3] ____ filter, and then I have to refill it, and blah, blah, blah. So uh, they intimidate me a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Here's what... Here's what changed the game for me because I understand that completely, and I've had the same problem. Umm but my... The thing that changed the game was when, like, if you move, get a fridge... Does your... Your fridge doesn't have like a filtered water thing...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Right now? Okay.
Em Schulz: We have roaches.
Christine Schiefer: Pfft! [chuckle] I know but...
Em Schulz: Imagine a hole, that's where I live. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You also have a full apothecary in your home, so I can't really speak to what accessories you have and don't have.
Em Schulz: Okay. That's fair.
Christine Schiefer: Umm also, I lived in a really shitty house one time that had that filter thing somehow, i-it wasn't great or fancy, but you never know, but anyway, so if you get one of those with the fridge thing, that...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That changes the game.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause then you can just pour ice water and then it'll stay cold all day, you can put it in your cup holder. Again, this is not an ad. I just love, I've, I'm sort of piggy-backing on your new like umm, call for people to hydrate, so uh, so thank you for your...
Em Schulz: Oh it's finally, we're finally on board together...
Christine Schiefer: [0:04:39.1] ____ Finally, I've joined the ranks...
Em Schulz: The ranks.
Christine Schiefer: Joined your ranks and I'm, I'm a follower of the Em-pire now.
Em Schulz: Ah! Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I'll admit it. And, and uh, oh, I drink because umm I'm seeing a psychic on Saturday and I'm really nervous, hee hee.
Em Schulz: Oh! Okay well, that's... Uh good luck, good luck. The only type of water, uh system that has been suggested to me other than what you just did, is when RJ lived with us, he subscribed to a literal like, water, like five-gallon jug, like the blue ones in an office, he subscribed...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: To those getting sent to our apartment.
Christine Schiefer: Pfft. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And he would just have a whole ass, like five-gallon... I don't even know if it's five gallons, I don't know, that's like a 10-gallon thing, like the big blue ones.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I think they're heavier because the big...
Em Schulz: The big, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The big blue ones, 'cause Blaise's family, they have like well water, I guess. And so, they have always had that water system...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Thing, but it's really cool 'cause it also does hot water, so you could just like make tea.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But anyway, other than that...
Em Schulz: Well he... He had to buy... He had to buy a whole set up, and he had a water guy that he met in a warehouse at one point, it was a whole weird sketchy thing where he was like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That sounds right, that sounds right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: He was like, this guy... This guy told me all about this water system.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So you had a literal water cooler, so you cannot even... You take it back, your comments about me asking you about, if your fridge dispenses water, 'cause you used to have an, apparently or RJ used to have an entire water cooler at his house, so you know.
Em Schulz: He did not share with us, let's be clear.
Christine Schiefer: Well, okay. Fair point. Umm, it sounds like he, as the athlete, as the Olympic athlete in the building, probably drink it all.
Em Schulz: Yup. And then he brought it with him to new apartment, so... I don't know, he's got a lot of water there. If anyone's ever dying of thirst. You could go find... That's two thirst traps in one. You've got RJ, a [laughter] handsome swimmer and you've got a bunch of water.
Christine Schiefer: He's somewhere... Somewhere he flexed a bicep, I just felt, I just know.
Em Schulz: There's never a second he's not. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh anyway, I'm glad, I'm glad you drink water and I'm glad you drink because I told you to drink water, that's a new one. How meta. Umm I...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. I think maybe I'm un-tangling a lot of things in therapy about like umm demand avoidance or whatever that phrase is.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Where someone tells me to do something. I don't know if that's the right term, umm.
Em Schulz: Sound right.
Christine Schiefer: But just like, I don't wanna do things because people tell me to do them, I'm trying to untangle that a little bit.
Em Schulz: It's called execu... Executive dysfunction thing, or something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Also, well, that's a much bigger umbrella that I have uh... Yes. So it's piece by piece, I'm trying to work on this, but, but yeah, I uh I appreciate your guidance and wis... And sage wisdom, Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you, thank you. Umm. Is that it? Is that why we...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I drink just 'cause of the psychic thing really, but umm...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But I drink a lot of water, 'cause of you. So why do... Why do you drink?
Em Schulz: Uh, I drink because I'm about to head out tonight for this cruise that umm... I don't know, man, we'll see how it goes.
Christine Schiefer: That's... Oh my God, you leave tonight. I can't believe it.
Em Schulz: I'm... I'm overwhelmed with the packing. I feel like maybe the last time we did this, my mom just packed my clothes for me... No, that's not true. I remember always getting into fights with her...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Two, two capris...
Em Schulz: [chuckle] One's capris...
Christine Schiefer: Uh cocktail dress... A few sundresses...
Em Schulz: It was... Babydoll dresses are her favorites, remember? The babydolls.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry, that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, no. I, I just, umm, I'm excited that this is the first cruise where I will get to actually wear something that aligns with me, because my whole childhood, cruise nights, I always dreaded dinner is because I had to wear a dress.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh! Ugh!
Em Schulz: So, and like, I had to like wear my hair down, which if you have ever have been...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: A female to male, or fem to masc transitioning in any way, expression-wise, then you know, your biggest nightmare is being told to take your hair out of its ponytail umm.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And uh... So I'm excited that this is the first time I'll be on a cruise, where I actually get to pick what I wanna wear and like mean it, because the fights that I would have with my mom before any vacation growing up...
Christine Schiefer: Aw!
Em Schulz: Was always like, I don't wanna wear this. And she would be like, you have to look nice. You have to look nice. And so, and at the time, nice meant wearing a dress.
Christine Schiefer: You know, what's so funny, how much do you think... This is a conversa... A bigger conversation, definitely. But like, is there any, do you think draw, being uh... Like I just don't know, being born, you know, female, sex-wise, do you feel like there ever is a case where like, you would be drawn to certain colors or things, or do you think it's all completely like societal? I just, I'm, I'm, I just always wonder because like, even...
Em Schulz: Colors, you mean, like, like pink?
Christine Schiefer: Like pink, like pink frilly, like princess-y unicorns, or is that just all socie... Like do you think there's any... 'cause I know there's crossover, right?
Em Schulz: Ah...
Christine Schiefer: Like, girls can be really and... Obviously, like trucks and GI Joe, whatever...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But like I don't know how much of it is just like you're born with like in... Certain interests, like glit-glittery magic.
Em Schulz: I feel like in colors... I don't know, I've... I, I don't know enough about how different brains are on the binary. Umm, I would love to see it, and like, I wish there was like, some sort of longitudinal study of like a bunch of kids and their interests.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And then like how they identify later, 'cause I wonder if nonbinary people...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Also have their own odd umbrella of stereotypical favorites.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like I mean, my favorite was green, so that kind of takes away the red and the blue. Right? So I don't know, but I will say...
Christine Schiefer: Right, I mean Leona's favorite color is yellow, so I don't know what that means, but... Yeah, I...
Em Schulz: I, I...
Christine Schiefer: It's just interesting because there are... Like I've seen little boys, for example, who identify as little boys, but they love like sparkly shoes and unicorns and stuff. And so obviously, that goes against the societal grain, but there's clearly like an innate draw to like sparkles and, you know, for them.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I just wonder like maybe it just tends to lean a certain way because like with Leona, we never force her to wear anything, dress a certain way whatever, but she does occasionally like get really excited when she sees like a ballerina dress, and I'm like, you know, we don't really watch any shows like that, like I think something innately, she just gets really excited because she can like dance around and twirl in it, but I don't know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: If that's just societal or if she really likes it, anyway it doesn't...
Em Schulz: I mean I think she... I think she...
Christine Schiefer: Really matter now but I was just curious.
Em Schulz: No, I love conversations like this. I feel like she really... Maybe there's like some subtle marketing you're unaware of that she's picking up on it or like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, de... I definitely...
Em Schulz: It looks like her, you know.
Christine Schiefer: And like, she has like a school with like, uh, one or two other girls that I'm sure, wear, you know, stuff like that so.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah and like gifts she's been given and stuff, but so yeah, I wonder, umm but she's not like super, you know, into the girly stuff so I wonder...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I just yeah, I always sometimes... Or I always sometimes wonder... I umm sometimes wonder if it's like a mixed...
Em Schulz: Yeah, hardly never, but always never.
Christine Schiefer: Hardly never but occasionally always, umm. [laughter] I just some-sometimes wonder like if there's a, also like a mix of a societal kind of line plus maybe an innate interest you're born with because that...
Em Schulz: I mean I believe everything is nurture and nature combined...
Christine Schiefer: A combination, right. Right.
Em Schulz: I always think everything's a combination but I, I... But in terms of like favorite colors, that's definitely pushed by society. Like I, I will say one of the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah. Col... Yeah the color thing, yeah.
Em Schulz: And also I mean, let's remember that pink was originally a boy's color and blue was originally a girl's color.
Christine Schiefer: Yup. Right.
Em Schulz: So I mean it's just... That just goes to show that we've clearly flip-flopped before on that, so I think it's totally...
Christine Schiefer: It just made... [0:12:06.4] ____ it's all made up. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Soci... It is fun though because my friends that were quadruplets growing up, they were born being assigned to different colors, that way their parents wouldn't confuse them and so they...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I love that!
Em Schulz: And... But to this day it is their favorite colors and like they still wear...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: They still put it in all their wardrobes. So.
Christine Schiefer: So they, like, really owned it? That's so cute.
Em Schulz: Well I think it's probably like 100% nature that they... That this color was thrust upon them...
Christine Schiefer: Con-conditioning.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I think they were just told, like, uh this is my color.
Christine Schiefer: But it's funny, 'cause you... I... But also I bet they have to, I mean I bet some kids who were, a color was thrust upon them and they were like, fuck, no. I don't like that color anymore, you know, I bet, I bet it goes the opposite way.
Em Schulz: One of the four did and her name is [0:12:48.3] ____ Mayer, and uh she went from yellow to purple [chuckle] but she still was not any of the other colors.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, so she tried and she was like, that was her version of being rebellious of like, no, no, if that's the color that's thrust upon me, I'm gonna...
Christine Schiefer: I pick my color.
Em Schulz: I'm going to thrust myself onto a different color. And it was... You know.
Christine Schiefer: I love that. Okay, so wait, uh... So I guess that answered my question like it... It might be just a mix of, you know, depending on the situation and person. I mean obviously I could have known that but, you know, I just was wondering what your thoughts were.
Em Schulz: It's, uh, I mean I'm going to force green on Leona forever, so umm, and I did get her a green magic wand, all that good stuff stuff...
Christine Schiefer: Well unfortunately, the way that she sees the world right now is, Uncle Xandy's favorite color is green's favorite color is orange, Oma's favorite color is orange, Mommy's favorite color is red; by the way that's not true. Umm Daddy's favorite color is blue and her favorite color is yellow, so, right now, those are all taken, she hasn't really quite grasped the concept that multiple people can like the same color, but as soon as she kinda gets...
Em Schulz: Well she's assigning people colors too, it's not even that they're... They're your favorite.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, absolutely. It's she...
Em Schulz: She's, she's just saying that's your favorite.
Christine Schiefer: That's precisely right, although she got everyone else's right, except her parents', umm so...
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: I don't know how that happened but...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, uh anyway, anyway I uh, that's not totally important but I was just curious so. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, no, I... I mean, I'm a... I think when it comes to things that umm, society pushes on us towards uh gender roles, I'm always going to throw myself at the, oh, it's obviously society's fault, so umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but I, like, there's a line...
Em Schulz: So there's that and...
Christine Schiefer: But the line is I also want her to like, like what she likes, do you know what what I mean? Like, if she's like, I love pink dragons, I'm not going to be like, no, you should like blue dragons. You know, so I have to find that like line is what I'm saying.
Em Schulz: I think... I think she's going to be raised by two wildly leftist people and she is going to figure it out. That's what I think. I think... Like... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's what I, that's what I hope. I like, I know I, I try to like push, put a lot of pressure on myself too but it's like, I guess at the end of the day, like we're already open-minded enough that like it's hopefully not going to be a huge issue. Umm.
Em Schulz: I think she's going to hear the word feminism quite a lot in your home and I think she's going to realize...
Christine Schiefer: Pfft! [laughter]
Em Schulz: Very quickly that a lot of things are thrust upon her and she will break that cycle. I, I have no doubt she'll...
Christine Schiefer: She can make up, make up her own mind. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I have no doubt one day, she'll look at the color wheel and go, you know what? Fuck 'em! And just set everything on fire and decide her own...
Christine Schiefer: She should've make her own color.
Em Schulz: Pave her own way. Pave her own way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, uh, so rest assured, Christine. Uh anyway, that's why I drink because I finally get to wear what I want, but that means I have to pack what I want, I have to pack. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yay! [laughter]
Em Schulz: Here's my story for you, Christine. Uh, it's a quick one. This is in... Where is it in? Hmm. Where is it in? Let's see... Oh it's in Flint, Michigan.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: Uh, this is the story of the The Capitol Theatre.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: And there, I had to double check where it was from, because there is also a haunted Capitol Theatre in Utah, so I had to make sure I didn't cross my facts over. Umm, and I ended up researching two locations because I had to keep checking that I was not covering the Utah theater.
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: Whoopsies!
Christine Schiefer: Uh ne... Next week on, And That's Why We Drink, other Capitol Theatre.
Em Schulz: I know. [laughter] So, in 1886... Okay. You feel in 1886, you've got the vibe, everyone's favorite color is...
Christine Schiefer: It's a good year.
Em Schulz: Probably blue because men are in charge, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Well back then, it was pink, right? So. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh right, probably obsessed with pink over there. The whole town was just painted pink. Uh in 1886, Hiram Bachtel buys the land and...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: He buys the land with the intent of tearing down the blacksmith shops here. And when he tears them down uh, he builds on top of the land, 10-cent sheds for off-duty carriage horses. Uh where I guess...
Christine Schiefer: 10-cent she... Is that a... Is that a name or is that like actually just how much they cost?
Em Schulz: I honestly saw 10-cent shed and my first thought was that's a deep dive, and I, I couldn't find anything so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh what?
Em Schulz: I think he really just... I think he just, uh, rented out sheds for a dime...
Christine Schiefer: They were just 10 cents. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And people could park their horses there while they were in town or they could maybe sleep in there...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: If they really were trying to just like, do it on a pinch. Umm, anyway, he built a bunch of 10-cent sheds there. We don't know what happens in the meantime but from 1886 to 1923, it's kind of a... The only thing we know that's there are the 10-cent sheds. By 1923, the 10-cent sheds are gone and it's now an empty lot, and it's bought by J. Bradford Pengelly, which how does everyone have such a good name back then? I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Nobody's got a good name like that today.
Christine Schiefer: It's so annoying 'cause I wish everyone now had cool names like that.
Em Schulz: I feel like especially like I'm looking at you non-binaries, everyone's changing their name, why aren't we doing like some regal shit like back then, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, make it interesting, people.
Em Schulz: Instead everyone's naming themselves like, Socks, you know, and like how about instead we go with [laughter] J. Bradford Pengelly, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I'm going to name myself that, you know, 'cause uh, somebody has to.
Em Schulz: Uh well, to really do it up, J. Brad... Here... Here's two really good names for ya. So 1923, the empty lot is bought by J. Bradford Pengelly. To really do it up, when he has... He has business plans for this area and J. Bradford Pengelly goes into business with Colonel Walter S. Butterfield and... [laughter] Together, they take... They go into the property and they build one of Butterfield theaters, Butterfield theaters becomes a thing throughout Michigan, I guess at this time, it's like a...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Now we're talkin'!
Em Schulz: Have I told you about Allison's obsession with a friend of mine with the last name Butterworth?
Christine Schiefer: No. I don't think so.
Em Schulz: Let's put it this way and I don't mean it in a mean way, if he's listening I don't mean it in a mean way, but like we're not really friends, like we know each other. We just know each other.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: We're not like pals, umm. But I have... So I went to school with this kid for my entire life, his name was Trent Butterworth, and uh, I think maybe I thought it was a great name when I was a little kid because it reminded me of like Mrs. Butterworth's, you know, pancake syrup.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah. It's a good name.
Em Schulz: But having known him since I was six, I don't even think about the last name anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Allison came home to visit... To meet all my family, this was the first time she was ever going to meet all my friends in Fredericksburg. And when she met like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Deirdre and everyone, Deirdre still lives in town, Trent still lived in town, a bunch of friends still live in town and so they all happened to have ran into each other at the same bar that night, while Deirdre's waiting for me and Allison to come meet her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So Allison and I go to this bar where we meet Deirdre, and we just happen to run into a bunch of people I went to school with, because it's Fredericksburg. And so Allison met Trent Butterworth at the same time she met Deirdre, and has conflated both of my relationships with either of them into like equal importance.
Christine Schiefer: Well... No! No no no no.
Em Schulz: And so, she can't... She can't take it out of her mind that, yes, I've known Deirdre and Trent equally as long, [laughter] but we were not there to meet Trent, he just happened to be there.
Christine Schiefer: No, that... It doesn't. [laughter] That's so funny!
Em Schulz: And so... And she became obsessed with his last name and loves his last name. So forever, she was like poking fun about Trent Butterworth and, like oh, Trent Butterworth. He's everywhere, he's everywhere. And it, weirdly, after she made this joke and he became like a bit in our relationship, this guy I went to school with since first grade, he's like now a bit in my relationship, and now every time I go home I just happen to run into Trent Butterworth, and Allison...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, ma... You're like ma... Allison's like manifesting it for you.
Em Schulz: [laughter] And so all of a sudden now, Allison's like, are you gonna see Trent? I know you're not going to see any of your actual like closest friends in Fredericksburg but maybe you run into Trent... And it's happened where like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. And you're going to come home and she's going to be like, oh how is Trent? You're like, what? [laughter] I'm not there for that...
Em Schulz: There... There were even times where like, there were times where I ran into him and then him and I like, I mean, it was... It's a small town, we all went to a school where 30 people graduated together, it was just 30 of us, so I could still probably text any of those 30 people, and get a response from them and like we just all...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We just all happen to run in the same circles at some point and so there was another time where I was like, I'm not that close with Trent, get it out of your head, like I just happened to run into Trent, I'm not that close with Trent. And then the next day... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're gonna start getting resentful toward fucking Trent. Okay, sorry, go ahead.
Em Schulz: And well, and then the next day was like New Year's and I was in town for New Year's, and I guess Trent didn't know where to go...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up!
Em Schulz: And someone invited him so it ended up being like I hung out with Trent all night and... On New Year's Eve...
Christine Schiefer: See?
Em Schulz: And when all my friends, I don't know where, but we were like house party, boun... Like jumping around, all of them went somewhere else and I lost them. So then Trent and I ended up like at someone's house, and slept on the same air mattress that night and so, so then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yep. See, Allison fuckin' manifested that shit. No doubt.
Em Schulz: And like... So Allison's like, you literally have had sleepovers with Trent, like you obviously are like closer with Trent than you think you are.
Christine Schiefer: Best friends. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Which like if you told, like Trent and I, for people who've known each other for that long, I still, if you told me in high school I would one day in my like 20s or 30s have a sleepover on New Year's Eve with Trent Butterworth, I wouldn't have believed you because we weren't that close. And...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But Allison is fully committed to the bet... And then he's in the military and he eventually got umm, he got promoted to a title that is nicknamed in the military as the Butterbar and so his name so his name...
Christine Schiefer: Stop!
Em Schulz: So his name became Butterbar Butterworth, and...
Christine Schiefer: Quit it!
Em Schulz: And anyway, Allison's obsessed with his name and like our lore, like she's decided there's lore, so umm...
Christine Schiefer: I think we're all, you're kind of making everyone get on board with this, you realize that, right? Like you'll never escape now.
Em Schulz: He's like, he's... I, I never have an issue running into him but it only just keeps furthering this storyline that like we're, we're besties.
Christine Schiefer: I sort feel like, yeah I sort of feel like this is just uh your fate, like there's really not much you can do about it and I... I am sorry but this is kind of, you just have to learn to accept it.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Anyway, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I live with that every day, it's a cross I bear, but anyway, if you happen to be related to a Butterworth, just know that if you ever said that in front of Allison, it would really spiral.
Christine Schiefer: Be careful. I guess be careful who... Yeah. [laughter] I was gonna say, be careful who you tell 'cause some people are going to take it in a weird direction.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So anyway uh, J. Bradford Pengelly and Colonel Walter Butterfield, who the second I wrote that name down, I knew if Allison were in the room, we... She would have asked me how Trent's doing, so there's that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're like trying to get ahead of it, yeah.
Em Schulz: Which I checked on Instagram, he's fine, everyone. Thanks. Umm, so he... They decided to get together they create Butterfield theaters. Umm I think this was the first of like what becomes 20 different Butterfield theaters throughout the Michigan area. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Dang!
Em Schulz: And this is now in 1925 to 1927, their theater is being built, with the help of the most famous atmospheric theater designer named John Eberson...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: So I only mention that because apparently this was in a, a small chunk of time, it was in the 1920s before the Depression, there was this whole category of theater design called atmospheric theaters. And uh...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And John Eberson I think was the guy who like created it, he was easily the most successful at it, the most well... The well known, most well known about this. And umm, I think Capitol Theatre was one of his first ones. There's only 17 of his left in the country, umm and I think there's... There's 35 in total left in the country, 17 of them were designed by him. And Capitol Theatre is not only one of those 177 but it's said to be the best that uh, still exists.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Cool.
Em Schulz: So atmospheric theaters were super detailed, like walls and ceilings surrounding the audience. You know, when you're looking around like in a theater, in an auditorium.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like the... It's just like very beautifully done. And there's like a bunch of sculpted columns and stuff like that on the walls. It was kind of umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh like at a big venue like that, he was in charge of creating that surrounding space.
Christine Schiefer: I see. He's doing like kind of the aesthetic of it, like making it chic and...
Em Schulz: Yeah. And his thing was making it look like an outdoor landscape, so that way he could...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: Bring the outside in, and so he was very into...
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like a pastoral vibe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's very... He also... Like, the walls would be facades of buildings, and if you looked up, it would be like clouds were painted into the sky, and there'd be lights and twinkling lights to look like stars...
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like Michelangelo status.
Em Schulz: It... Like if you... If you were to Google atmospheric theaters, you would know...
Christine Schiefer: What's his name by the way? Again?
Em Schulz: John Eberson.
Christine Schiefer: Eberson. Okay. That's kinda cool though. Like, uh, what a neat, what a neat, uh, legacy, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Apparently it was inspired by him wanted you to... He wanted you to feel like you were walking out onto an Italian patio, so it was very Mediterranean-looking and...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh! I love that.
Em Schulz: So he... And to this day, still has like twinkling lights on the ceiling. So it looks like stars and all this stuff. Anyway, uh, one of them... One of the atmospheric theaters left is the Capitol Theatre. I looked up nearby you, the nearest still standing Capitol Theatre...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or uh atmospheric theater of his and the closest one to you is the Louisville Palace.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask. I was there last year and I, I...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: When you were describe... Yeah, when you were describing that, I was like, I went somewhere really similar in Louisville, and it was beautiful. I mean, I remember... I remember... This is so funny. I remember thinking, I have to google this place when I go home and see like why it looks like this and who designed it, 'cause I saw Glass Animals there. But we were there for like a rock concert. But you walk in and you're like, Whoa, this is gorgeous.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So that's so funny, you say that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, I guess he spent some time in Europe uh at one point, and he was very into...
Christine Schiefer: Well, he's Austrian, it says.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh. Oh. Well he's very... The inspiration where I guess, uh, a lot of areas over there have patio performances, and so he wanted it to feel...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like a patio performance, which is why he wants you to feel like you walked out onto a patio, in a time patio.
Christine Schiefer: I love that. Yeah, I mean, it was a beautiful theater. So that... Okay, that gives me, like, like context for it, how funny.
Em Schulz: And last piece of trivia to this: Do you know which state has the most remaining John Eberson atmospheric theaters?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I definitely don't know, but I can, like, I can venture a guess...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, let's see... Illinois?
Em Schulz: OH.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, really?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Alright, neighbor. Well, not quite neighbors. Almost neighbors.
Em Schulz: Yeah, well, there's three of them in Ohio, so there you go.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, he created an atmospheric theater, four Butterfield theaters. And in 1928, the theater officially opened, it was used for music, vaudeville and photo plays. Do you know what a photo play is?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Okay, a photo play... I had to look it up, I got real upset very quickly because I was like...
Christine Schiefer: I was... Oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: I was about to get really excited.
Em Schulz: I'm excited. No, I'm excited, but I was like, you have to be kidding me.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And then I realized I was misunderstanding the definition, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I looked up photo plays and my first understanding of the definition was it's just an old word for movie, and I was like, well, why don't we just call it that anymore? But, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Apparently, a photo...
Christine Schiefer: Like a moving picture.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But apparently, a photo play... It is a movie, but it's a play that's filmed to be seen as a movie, not as a play.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh! Wait...
Em Schulz: So it's like a play in moving photos, essentially. It's a... It's like taking... It... Almost like today, uh, like a comedy special today because you're filming in a theater and the people watch it as a movie.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh. So there are people... Oh, I see, so people are watching it while it's being filmed.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or... Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Like a version of it. Okay, I was trying to find the closest thing, and I don't know if you know about this, if you don't, that's fine. If you do, I have a little bit of a quick deep dive on that.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: But I grew up often watching the play version of Peter Pan as a movie. Remember there was like Peter Pan was like a woman played Peter Pan. Her name was Mary Martin?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Do you... Do you remember that where it was like...
Christine Schiefer: I do.
Em Schulz: You were watching the movie, but it was obviously a play that they had filmed.
Christine Schiefer: Like she had like the thing that she flew on and...
Em Schulz: Yeah. She... It was a stage that they filmed it at. For sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
Em Schulz: So, I think that would be a photo play because it's a play that they recorded with the intention of people seeing it on a screen.
Christine Schiefer: What about like, watching umm, Hamilton on... On Disney Plus? Okay.
Em Schulz: Technically, I guess. I mean this is also... This is a, a definition from hundred years ago.
Christine Schiefer: So now would they f...
Em Schulz: So today, I...
Christine Schiefer: Would they film... Right, that'd be slightly different. They'd be like, oh, on Disney plus? What? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. Uh, would they film them in this place or would they just like, play them for people to come watch in this place?
Em Schulz: I think they would film the... Maybe both, that'd be, that'd be so meta if they filmed the play and then played the movie on the play...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's why I got tripped up.
Em Schulz: Or at the theater. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: But primarily it's like, oh, they would use this as a set for filming this kind of a...
Em Schulz: I think so. I think so.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it is so beautiful and stuff, it's probably like fit to... To host that kind of event, like to film something, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it was, it was a massive theater too, so I think it was like, they had a lot of room to film on there or something, maybe...
Christine Schiefer: I see. Okay.
Em Schulz: But I'm imagining because in the '20s, it's not like anyone had their own individual TVs yet, so I think you're actually probably right...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: That they would film it, and then later it would be something that people went to that same theater to watch on a screen.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Like they probably spread them around. I mean, like.
Em Schulz: Which like...
Christine Schiefer: They probably played them elsewhere also, but... Yeah, that's really interesting. Okay.
Em Schulz: Kind of a smart idea, if like you don't wanna have the same people have to do the same play over and over again...
Christine Schiefer: Definitely.
Em Schulz: You can just play the recording of it. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Definitely.
Em Schulz: And so, anyway, I... Did you, were you ever uh interested in that Peter Pan movie? That wasn't like a big thing for you? I feel like that was such like a thing for me.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I was never into Peter Pan that much, honestly. I think it freaked me out a little bit.
Em Schulz: I wasn't into Peter Pan either, but like that movie, speci... I feel like it was just always on or someone I knew always had a copy of it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: No?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I'm just mis-remembering. I don't know, I, uh, I feel like I don't have the best, uh, grasp on what was normal [laughter] for a childhood. Uh so yeah.
Em Schulz: Did you like... Not the cartoon. Like the, the live action, old school one. Did you... You really never watched that?
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right. I don't...
Em Schulz: Wild. Wild.
Christine Schiefer: I've watched it, but like maybe once.
Em Schulz: Would you like...
Christine Schiefer: Like I remember it.
Em Schulz: Uh, some fun facts about it?
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Okay. Because, wow, I ended up doing like an hour of research on this because I was just...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Well, this... When I saw like Peter Pan as an example online, it like pulled this memory out of my head, where I was like, oh my God, I used to watch that all the time. How did I totally forget that existed?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And so now I'm probably gonna watch it on the plane later, uh, tonight, but, umm, I was obsessed with that. I don't know why, it was like... It also... I remember, as a kid, my mind being blown that a girl was playing Peter Pan. But I mean it was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's pretty cool. I, I think that's probably why I remember it, like, 'cause I remember thinking, whoa, that's neat.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and I also remember it being like... I was like blown away that they weren't trying to hide the fact that they were on wires and stuff, but in my mind, it didn't occur to me that it was because it was on a stage, I was just like, Wow...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They kinda did this kinda cheap. Like they're just like not even trying to special effects this.
Christine Schiefer: This is on the... [laughter] On the cheap. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. So the fun fact about this is that originally this uh... Or... It was actually like the... It was a, a Broadway musical, umm Peter Pan in the '50s, and it was supposed to come to San Francisco. I guess they were still trying to figure out negotiations. And so while they were waiting to open in San Francisco, they started rehearsing in Pasadena, which is in Los Angeles...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And so, uh, I guess they never figured out their deal with San Francisco, so they ended up staying in LA and opening there. And LA, being the TV hub even back then, the... NBC, uh, got wind of like Peter Pan being this huge thing, this big sensational musical that was out right now, and they went to the directors and the producers of the Peter Pan musical and said, hey, we're NBC, and it's 1954, and we just created this thing called Color TV...
Christine Schiefer: Ah!
Em Schulz: And here's this thing. We've got a... We've got a show on NBC called Producers' Showcase. And the coolest thing about Producers' Showcase is that it is a series where we only show TV in color. And it's...
Christine Schiefer: Wow!
Em Schulz: It's the only series like it at, at this point in time.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And the reason that they were able to do this is because NBC... They have a parent company called RCA, and RCA had just created this new color TV set... Setup...
Christine Schiefer: I see. Okay.
Em Schulz: And so they were the only ones I guess who could do it.
Christine Schiefer: They got special rights at first.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so NBC was like, we're trying to promote this new color TV system...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: That our parent company just created. And so they helped us create this TV show called Producers' Showcase, where we only showcase things in color to, you know, promote how great this new set-setup is. What if Peter Pan, musical, we brought cameras into your theater and we filmed you guys, and that way people would wanna watch Peter Pan and, and watch a musical from the comfort of their own couches, they could watch it on our color TV setup, but at the same time, we're giving you promo for people to go buy tickets to your show. And so...
Christine Schiefer: That is so cool.
Em Schulz: Genius. Whoever was like, the marketing person...
Christine Schiefer: Genius.
Em Schulz: At the time, really ate it with that. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: They... Yeah. They knew what they were up to.
Em Schulz: So then they're like, great, we're gonna do that. And basically, NBC comes in with their cameras and they go to the theater that Peter Pan is, you know, performing in an LA or rehearsing in maybe at the time, umm 'cause it was an empty theater, they brought their cameras in and they filmed a full performance of it, but not just filmed it, they live broadcasted it, because at the time...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's cool.
Em Schulz: So everyone at home is watching a full live performance of this from the comfort of their own homes in color, it was unheard of, and this was in uh 1955, and it was the very first full-length and live Broadway production on a color TV. Umm, and so this brought in...
Christine Schiefer: I had no idea.
Em Schulz: This brought in 65 million viewers, which was record-breaking at the time. Mary Martin won a Tony and an Emmy for this, and it was such a big hit, they did it again a year later. And so they had to re-broadcast the same cast, [laughter] re-performing it in the same theater because it didn't occur to them that they should film it, they just were like, oh, we have to go in and like re-livestream it essentially.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they didn't have like a copy of it?
Em Schulz: They... No, they just... They did it once and thought that was gonna be it.
Christine Schiefer: They broadcast it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then by popular demand, they had to do it again, and they were like, well, I guess we have to come back in and redo it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! That's incredible.
Em Schulz: And so, uh, the show was not seen again, which is wild, like... Just a reminder to everybody, like with how grateful we are to technology these days, but people watched it once in 1955 and again once by popular demand in 1956, and if you missed it, you fucking missed it. And then it would not be seen again on television until 1960 when it was finally videotaped, and then they were able to play the tape.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What are they doing? That's so funny.
Em Schulz: Not only that, but they only played the tape in, once in 1963, once in 1966, and once in 1973. So in 10 years, you had three chances to see this and that was it.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus! They really are trying to work on that like, a supply and demand situation, you know. Like limiting it.
Em Schulz: What... Well, also at the time, maybe that was like a big deal of, like, whoa, how lucky are we? Three opportunities to see this thing in a decade.
Christine Schiefer: Three different times.
Em Schulz: Wild. Umm, but so the last thing I'll say is, in 1976, I guess they were going to play it again, 'cause it seemed like they were doing it like every few years. They were gonna play it again.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And then the video tape went missing. They didn't...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. That... Okay. That apparently happened all the time back then...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And like lately, there are some people who have jo... Or like hobbies or pastimes or even jobs, searching for old video tapes that like have ended up either in basements or like random people's attics. They, like, scour the internet eBay for like lost episodes of things.
Em Schulz: Uh I mean, i-it's... And it ended up being found 13 years later.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: It was gone for 13 years. They even had already re-filmed an entire other one now starring uh Mia Farrow as Peter Pan, but like they...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: They had to film an entire new one 'cause they were like, we fucking just don't have this video anymore, umm but it ended up being found 13 years later. It was played 16 years later in 1989 on television, and that was the first time since the '70s anyone had ever seen this version. And following...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: The success of broadcasting musicals in color, Producers' Showcase said, wow, Peter Pan went really well. Let's do that again. And now, we're going to film for everybody, Annie Get Your Gun, also starring Mary Martin. So she really found her groove.
Christine Schiefer: What... She sure did.
Em Schulz: She... She was taking those checks home. Okay, so anyway, that's my deep dive on the old school Peter Pan because, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Amazing.
Em Schulz: Good times. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I fucking love it.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry if you wanted a straightforward story today, everybody. I'm so sorry, we haven't even gotten to the ghost yet.
Christine Schiefer: Pfft!
Em Schulz: Anyway, they played things such as photo plays, they did vaudeville, they did music, and that was from the '20s all the way into the '50s, they were... That was like, their thing. When the talkies got big... Like pictures where you could...
Christine Schiefer: Damn. Oh the talkies.
Em Schulz: Movies with audio, umm they also added a screen to the theater. It became a huge movie theater, a place that was like what their... That was their bread and butter, eventually. And the Capitol was a big hit through the '50s from opening date in 1953... From opening day in 1928 to 1953, which is like 25 years. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Ish.
Em Schulz: The Capitol brought in 20 million theater goers and most of them...
Christine Schiefer: 20... Geez!
Em Schulz: And most of them were for... Once the talkies came out, people were there for movies, that's what it was best known for.
Christine Schiefer: How cool.
Em Schulz: Coming up on the '60s, the theater was dated. To try to zhuzh it up, they modernized it AKA they took away some of like the really cool interior touches, and basically, the theater struggled until Colonel Butterfield said, we're out of here and closed shop in 1976.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: No!
Em Schulz: Umm. So it's no longer Butterfield theaters, but it's then bought by a family where, their whole job, they just wanted to restore this thing, and they... Their way of doing that was by bringing in a bunch of like, rock bands, metal bands, punk bands, and...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: They tried to make it like a, like a rocker arena. This was actually... They even hosted the very first show of AC/DC's US tour in 1977.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh!
Em Schulz: And they came up with new ideas to raise money to restore the theater back to what it once looked like, and one of those ideas was to create the wet theater. And this was one of the very first wet theaters out there where you could...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Have alcohol at the theater.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter] It's like, I don't wanna know what that means, okay. Never mind.
Em Schulz: Oh. Like a dry campus, a wet theater.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It totally makes sense, yeah.
Em Schulz: So they were showcasing rock and roll bands, they were selling beer, they turned the basement into a billiards and bowling alleys place...
Christine Schiefer: Fun.
Em Schulz: So they kinda turned it into like a grungy space and it was this way through the '90s, which had to be such a cool venue at the time for like... I mean, uh '90s rock...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I bet.
Em Schulz: Or '80s rock and to go like this like...
Christine Schiefer: Watching like Nirvana there or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and like this beautiful hall, but like you can still drink beer and play... And go bowling, like, like what a fun space.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds lovely. What a combo.
Em Schulz: Umm, so it was... They... They were able to kind of, get by through the '90s. I don't know how they weren't making more money, umm but eventually... It even got on the National Register of Historic Places, but that didn't even help. A big reason for why the venue's, uh, why this venue suffered later is because more venues were opening up in safer areas, so the bands weren't going there anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So maybe it was doing really well and then it immediately tanked or maybe they were always kind of struggling and then that is really what hurt them.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But eventually, they were struggling again. Then some filmmakers came in and they were using it as a filming location, and they... One of the, I guess, caveats in their contracts was like, you can film here, but you also have to like put money towards restoring the place. And so there was one movie that came here and they paid $20,000 to help prepare the theater's marquee outside.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. Whoa!
Em Schulz: So that was another attempt to get the Capitol back to like its former glory, but nothing ended up really working, uh, and around 1996, the place shut down, shut down. And it remained shut down until 2015. So like, 20 years. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. I mean, and Flint has had its fair share of problems otherwise, you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah, Flint's going through it.
Christine Schiefer: Obvious... For obvious reasons. So, yeah, it does... It does make some sense that like certain arts, cultural and arts spaces might suffer over time. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Umm in 2015, it finally got bought by a re-investment group, and within two to three years, they had spent, different sources say, up to $15 to $37 million to restore this place.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's a lot.
Em Schulz: And it opened in 2017, back to its former glory. It was a booming theater again. They actually were able to keep the original light board and electrical system, and the only real difference was that instead of it being a 2000-seater, it was a 1500-seater to keep up to code, so that's like the main change.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] They were like, 500 of you have to go, but otherwise, we're ready.
Em Schulz: But everything else, they tried to bring... Everything else they tried to make it look like it did. They even brought back some of like the John Eberson elements to the theater and... Umm, interesting that you said Glass Animals were at your Kentucky Theater...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Of his because at this one, there are 10 massive peacocks standing at the top of uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I meant I saw the band Glass Animals at the theater.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, you did.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. [laughter] Sorry. Sorry. [0:44:35.2] ____ to go buy... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, did you know, that there is a mind melds for Glass Animals when it comes to John Eberson theaters? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I sure didn't, so please enlighten me.
Em Schulz: You, you saw Glass... Glass Animals at one...
Christine Schiefer: I was like, peacocks? Or is that a band? [laughter]
Em Schulz: But there are Glass Animals on another.
Christine Schiefer: I am so confused. Okay.
Em Schulz: I am so stupid.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're not.
Em Schulz: Anyway, there are, like... Apparently, there's a bunch of peacocks that will watch... That are, oh, on top of the, the stage there. So.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty cool. How many of the millions was worth peacocks?
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Was that like half the budget?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Could you imagine? Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Someone was just like real gung-ho about this damn peacocks. Doubled the budget.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's why it went from 15 to 37 million very quickly.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry. Either you include the peacocks or you don't. More...
Em Schulz: Well... Now here, the only death we know at the theater, it was in the 1930s, where an employee was on his break and he was standing at the back of the theater, at the same time that on the other side of that door, in the alley of the theater, there was a police shoot-out with a burglar...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And the burglar or someone shot their gun, and it flew through the door...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And hit the guy who was on his break standing there.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, no!
Em Schulz: And honestly, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: There's no way he... In my mind, there's no way he didn't hear a gun shoot-out, but he was probably just nosy. I, I could imagine him just being like, What the hell is that sound? Like what's going on? And then...
Christine Schiefer: He was... You said he's on his lunch break?
Em Schulz: He was on his lunch break, just standing in the back of the theater.
Christine Schiefer: Was he working at the theater?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, he was an employee. So he was a... So he probably was like, what is all that racket in there? I'm on my break. Gasp.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. He was like, what the... So I think he probably heard a sound and walked towards the door to check on things...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And then the bullet flew through the door.
Christine Schiefer: That is fucking so sad.
Em Schulz: Umm, what's even sadder is apparently, this, this could just be, you know, for the sake of like, having like an urban legend, but apparently, he survived for a while, but he was screaming for help and the...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Gasp.
Em Schulz: Volume in the theater was so loud, it drowned out his cries.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, no!
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Well that's fucking awful.
Em Schulz: So now, people... Now, people regularly see someone who looks like an usher walking through the theater, standing in the back of the theater. A lot of times, people see a shadow figure standing over there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: One source actually says that this being will try to help, escort you to your seat, so get ready to shit your pants. And then umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's nice. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And people also regularly hear crying, screaming, knocking as if someone's trying to get your attention.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Umm, people hear, uh, moaning. They also hear laughter. They hear voices kinda whisper to you. Umm, like I said, people see, uh, shadow figures in that area. They also see, uh, shadow figures and full-blown operations on the stage. Some people have even seen a little girl just sitting on the stage, and we don't know if she's...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: Maybe she was a family, like a, someone who worked at the theater as a kid, or maybe she was an actress and she's still mid-performance. We don't know. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: People hear footsteps, especially running across the stage at night when it's empty. People hear voices uh around the curtains and you think someone's still there, but no one is. Uh, when the auditorium is completely empty, people will still hear singing backstage, as if someone's getting ready to come out on stage.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. No.
Em Schulz: Some people have heard singing straight up on the stage. And that's a firm fucking pass for me, like you're just...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Sweeping the popcorn... Ugh!
Christine Schiefer: Do you feel like it's worse...
Em Schulz: And then you see your...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, okay, true. True. But do you feel like it's worse if you're like hearing it backstage and you can't see them, or do you feel like it's worth... Worse if it's on stage and there's just nobody there?
Em Schulz: If I can't... This is like, I go right back to being a child because in my mind, if I can't see them, they can't see me, so I'm like, I still have a chance to run.
Christine Schiefer: Like, if they're back stage, you mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah, if I hear the singing back stage, I'm like, maybe they don't know I'm here...
Christine Schiefer: You feel safer.
Em Schulz: And I can still slowly back away from the room.
Christine Schiefer: Fair point. If they're singing right at me, you're right, even though I can't see them necessarily, it's like.
Em Schulz: Ugh!
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you can probably see me. Okay, I see what you're saying.
Em Schulz: And like, you hope that that would be like a residual haunting, but maybe they were singing for an audience, and you're the only one there, so they were singing for you. Ugh! No. No.
Christine Schiefer: And then you... And then you just run away. [laughter] They're probably like, oh.
Em Schulz: And by the way, I'm terri... Like, there's nothing I hate more than like going to a restaurant, and like the staff sings to you. I can't... Like, I... And I...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I know that.
Em Schulz: And I even told Allison, not that she's like much of a singer or like a a musical person, but I did warn her early in the relationship, I was like, if you're someone who plays an instrument, I do not want you playing for me, I do not wanna be your one-man audience and I have to just sit there and I don't know what to do with my face. Please don't do that to me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So like, the fact that they're...
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
Em Schulz: At work, there could be a situation like that where someone is just singing...
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
Em Schulz: And I'm like, ugh, great. Like...
Christine Schiefer: You're like, I love it!
Em Schulz: That's super great. Okay, thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Yeah, nothing worse. I, like, I can't decide like if my social anxiety outweighs the fear of being in the room with a ghost, but if it's a ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Who is basically singing happy birthday to me, I'm like, oh man, I'll live to tell. This is all bad.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, it's both, it's both. It's just all bad.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, oh, and then the the big thing that happens here is that people... Well people hear a lot of sounds down the basement where the bowling alley used to be. I think at some point, it got refurbished, probably during the multi-million...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I bet that's loud as fuck.
Em Schulz: Yeah, well, I guess it became like more rehearsal space when they refurbished the area...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Or renovated the area, and... But people still hear voices down there, they still hear shouting and clanging and thuds, I mean it's very, very distracting, apparently. And for...
Christine Schiefer: For your rehearsal...
Em Schulz: When the rock...
Christine Schiefer: You're like trying to do... You're trying to rehearse and they're just like bowl... Someone's bowling next to you.
Em Schulz: Which, the irony that then they wait until everything's quiet so they can sing, like it's like, well...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I have to sing too. Like, I actually work here.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Today... You're not getting paid for this today, okay? Just so you're aware. [laughter]
Em Schulz: A very common thing, which by the way, 15-seater, that's not totally out of our reach, we could probably perform at Capitol Theatre if we wanted to.
Christine Schiefer: 1500?
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's not totally out of our reach.
Christine Schiefer: I'm thinking 15 people, I was like, Em, if they've got 15 people... Uh, 1500, that seems like, uh, quite a stretch, but, uh, folks, you know, if, if people showed up, maybe we could make it work.
Em Schulz: Well, if...
Christine Schiefer: We've never done such a big show, but we could try.
Em Schulz: If we did, uh, we would have to be warned that the most common thing that happens here is that microphones, amps, and all instrument equipment on stage will just fail for no reason, despite...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Like very good sound checks.
Christine Schiefer: But to be honest, we are the perfect people for that because it's like, if you're a band, if you're Glass Animals or some peacocks that are also a band umm and you wanna perform here and your mics go out, like that's fucking horrible. Like you'll probably end up having to give people their money back. For us, if that happened, it's like, gasp, a ghostly apparition has come, you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like for podcasts, it's not as big of a deal, and also, like, you can't interrupt the middle of a song, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But also like we could use it, so, I don't know. If they wanna hit us up, I would love to go check it out.
Em Schulz: I mean, it would certainly... Yeah, we are, for sure, the audience, that we would be the ones that people would be like, keep the volume off, and then we can't get through our show. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just play with the ghost instead.
Em Schulz: Well, the, the thought behind it is that they don't like the noise of today's music because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: This suddenly started once like the rockers came in.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, but they... Apparently, you can do all the sound checks in the world and then mid show, things just completely turn off. So maybe they just don't like the ruckus, but uh... Anyway, and I also, I hope that for a theater that's still hunted that they have a ghost lamp on at night on stage, but I didn't see anything about that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I, I couldn't tell.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's the Capitol Theatre.
Christine Schiefer: That is quite a story, I've never heard of it, obviously. Umm but I would, I would love to do a little show. I love those old theaters. Every time we get to do a show in an old theater, I know like, it has its downside sometimes with like green room access and, you know, stairs for you and stuff, but I just love those old theaters. I think, especially when they're just really beautiful and you feel like I shouldn't be allowed to perform on this stage, like it's too fancy for someone like me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, I think that every time. Every time I'm like, how did we get the invite? This is fucking crazy.
Christine Schiefer: It's all like gilded, and we're like, wah, who let us come here? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm like, us? Like, they said, We want the talkies...
Christine Schiefer: Little old me.
Em Schulz: And I said, Okay, I'm here to yap. I'm here to yap.
Christine Schiefer: We are the yappers. That's right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hello, we are the yappers. We're opening Glass Animals tonight. Okay. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: We're the... The peacocks above us is what we're talking about, not the actual band.
Christine Schiefer: We're the... We're the Glass A... We're the Pea... We're the... What were we? The talkies. We're opening for the Peacocks, who are opening for The Glass Animals.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm okay, sorry, let me get my notes open, I was too, uh, mesmerized by your story to pull them up already. So I'm kind of... I hate to say excited about this, 'cause obviously, I'm not excited about any story, umm...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: That I tell 'cause they're all just fucking terrible, umm, but this one is, uh, one that I've been wanting to cover for a little while, and I'm glad I waited because there was then a documentary on Netflix that came out recently, and it kind of.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Sparked it in my mind again. Umm, this is the story of Cari Lea Farver. Now...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm assuming you do not know it.
Em Schulz: If you're excited, I'm excited.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's all I need. Umm, so I'll go ahead and tell you about the story. If you have seen the documentary, you might know some of this, umm, but uh I highly... I do highly recommend the uh documentary as well, a lot of information came from there. Here we go. So Cari Lea Farver was born November 30th, 1974, to Dennis and Nancy Bisbee. She was adored by her family, adored by, uh, her friends. She attended Western Community College in Council Bluffs, Iowa, and went on to become a successful computer programmer. Those who knew her described her as warm, lively, funny, kind, you know, lit, lit up a room, etcetera. So above all, she loved being a mother to her son Max, whom she named after her own grandfather, and she actually lived with Max in Macedonia, which was a tiny Iowa town with a couple hundred residents just over the Nebraska border.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Cari loved her family, she was very close with her mother Nancy, but that all seemed to change in autumn of 2012 when Cari met a man named Dave Kroupa.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Dave was new to the area. He had recently separated from his ex-partner, Amy Flora. Umm, he'd had a couple of kids with her, and he and Amy, his ex-wife, had met in 2000 when Dave worked at a trop... Truck stop as an auto mechanic, and they fell in love pretty quickly. However, because Dave, uh, worked days and Amy worked nights, and then they had the two children, over time, they began to grow apart, that their lives...
Em Schulz: Mm. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Just didn't mesh anymore umm. And so they split up. So Amy wanted to move home to Nebraska, but she and Dave, like I said, had two kids together, and Dave wanted to be near his kids, and be part of parenting them. So he moved sort of alongside Amy, umm, to be near the kids, although they were no longer together, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he wanted to find a job nearby. He got a mechanic job and, uh, lived in Nebraska with... Basically, started a whole new life in Nebraska, umm, because his ex...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Had moved there with the kids. So, he and Amy were very... They were like the definition of a uh... An amicable co-parenting situation.
Em Schulz: Ugh! So jealous.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that nice? I know. I'm like, what is that about?
Em Schulz: It's... It's just one thing I'll never know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I didn't know that was possible. Umm, so... Especially back then. Umm so he, he moved nearby in Nebraska, uh, so he could be near the kids. Got a job as a mechanic and the kids would spend weekends at his house. So, it was difficult obviously to start over, especially as an adult in a new city, and after a divorce but Dave was pretty optimistic. Umm, one, he signed up for a few dating sites and like, didn't really get many hits, but one day, while he was working, a woman approached him and asked if he had time to look at her car, and he thought, wow... His first thought was, wow, she's beautiful.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but, you know, he's... I know, he's like, she's a customer. I'm... I'm the employee, like, I gotta keep things professional and aboveboard. So he checked out the vehicle, he got back to work and thought, wow...
Em Schulz: Checked her out. You know.
Christine Schiefer: You know... Yeah, checked her... Check, check out the vehicle. Check her out. Uh, and he thought like, well, you know, I gotta keep things aboveboard, so I probably won't see her again, umm, but one day, he's scrolling through Plenty Of Fish dot com, and, uh, he sees this local woman named Liz, and he... So he describes it in the documentary, he's like, I didn't get any matches. He's like, there were just zero matches on Plenty Of Fish, and he's like, so that was kind of a bummer. But then one day he gets off work, he's always checking his, uh, match profile, and there he sees that he finally has a match, it's a woman named Liz Golyar and she strikes him as very cool. Very down to earth. They have a lot of similar interests. They both have two kids, a boy and a girl. They both love animals. Umm, she has multiple pets, she has two dogs, a cat, and apparently, a big snake, so, you know...
Em Schulz: Wait a minute. Uh, swipe left, swipe left, quick.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's like, he's like, that is a match made in heaven for me, which is actually I think how he described it, umm.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, good for you. So 35 years old, newly single with two kids, Dave is like, looking to meet women that he doesn't want anything serious, so he tells Liz, you know, this is casual, but I would love to get to know you. Umm and Liz was a mother herself with two kids, and she's like, you know what? I'm also happy with a casual thing, umm nothing serious.
Em Schulz: Good for them.
Christine Schiefer: So they went out to... Yeah, good for them. So they went out together to drink and chat, and just generally have fun, and like I said, the arrangement was like, pretty casual. Umm, so, Dave kind of kept his options open, right? So he's browsing Plenty Of Fish one day when he sees a familiar face. It's the woman from work whose car he had worked on.
Em Schulz: Oh, it's the hottie. Beep beep. Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's the hottie. Beep beep. Boop boop. It was 37-year-old Cari Farver. And...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He sort of took it as a sign and thought, okay, I'm gonna send her a message and just see what happens. So they meet up for a date and he likes her immediately, she's intelligent, she's fun. Umm they spoke about their lives, their kids, they've generally hit it off. Dave, at one point said, he just shot his shot, he invited Cari back to his apartment, and she agreed. So after their date, they go back to his place, and they're, you know, thinking about getting hot and heavy, and...
Em Schulz: Aah!
Christine Schiefer: As soon as they get inside, the door bell rings.
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: That's weird.
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh, awkward, it's Liz.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Liz has left something at the apartment the last time she stayed over. So Dave is in this awkward situation where now he has Cari clearly here, uh, to hook up, and Liz who he's dating, but very casually, shows up at the door.
Em Schulz: Okay. Christine, what would you do in this situation? Your...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. If I were home.
Em Schulz: If you were him, if you had a casual situation going on, like, it's been established as casual, but someone's coming over in the middle of you about to hook up with someone else. What's, like, your plan of attack? Mine's...
Christine Schiefer: I'd hide the other per... I would hide the other person. What's yours?
Em Schulz: I... Okay, me too. I would do it. Me too...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Okay, good. I'd be like, I am not getting into a confrontation right now. Uh, I can talk about this with them later if that ends up being the better, bigger person move, but right now, you get over there and I'll explain later.
Em Schulz: Okay. But what happens? 'cause you've got your little... You've got honey number one and hom-honey number two. Honey number two...
Christine Schiefer: Oh they're now under...
Em Schulz: Is the one that's... Is the one hiding, but honey number one comes in...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And says, oh, I forgot my sunglasses. Oh, while I'm here...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: It seems like you're up to nothing, like, let's like, hang out and chat for a little bit. What do you say then?
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. My... I'm sweating so much. Okay, I think what I would do, is before I even...
Em Schulz: I already know what I would do and it's sick...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, actually, I just realized what's happening. What I would do is I would never answer the door. I would just like...
Em Schulz: Oh. Well yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Not answer the door. I would just lock... Well unless she has a key. If she has a key, I'd hide the other one.
Em Schulz: Then you're fucked.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would hide the other one and then I would say, oh, you know, what, I have a call with my dad in like two minutes and it's really important, so I can't hang out right now. What would you do?
Em Schulz: Oh, that's such a... That's so much smarter. I think I just don't lie as well as you.
Christine Schiefer: I would just lie about a phone call.
Em Schulz: No, I would lie too, but I would have... It would've been more elaborate. I would've been like, oh, I'm about to head out, and then I know she would have wanted to talk to me until I got in my car and drove away, so then I would have like fake drove away. And then come back. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would just be like, I'm so sorry, I gotta run. I have a work call or like a phone call upstairs, uh about... About co-parenting the kids or something important, and I mean, I hate to use the kids as an excuse...
Em Schulz: That's a better...
Christine Schiefer: But you know, I feel like I can't...
Em Schulz: No. If you have kids, use them as an excuse.
Christine Schiefer: Use them... Use them. Uh, but just as like a... Like a, a tactic to keep conflict at bay. I would be like just...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And then when honey number one leaves, I would tell honey number two like, hey, I'm so sorry, like, we have a casual thing, and like I would be upfront, I think...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: With the one in the house... 'cause like at this point, they're like, what's happening? And you have to be clear, like, that is not my spouse.
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I'm not obligated to, you know. So I feel like it would be a lot of explaining, but I think my move would either be, do not answer the fucking door at all.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And just be like...
Em Schulz: So avoid or lie.
Christine Schiefer: Not now. You don't...
Em Schulz: Avoid or lie.
Christine Schiefer: Avoid or lie, which is also avoiding, I guess, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] I...
Christine Schiefer: But then be honest to the person in the room, and then I don't know, depending on how it shakes out, I guess. If later someone's like, who was... Whose car was in the driveway? I'd be like, oh, I don't know, I'll handle that when I get there, but...
Em Schulz: That's crazy. [laughter] Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But definitely, you and I are both conflict-avoidant people. I imagine we'd probably approach this similarly.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so unfortunately, Dave did not know what... Quite what to do, which again, like, we have the... We have, like, foresight, you know, we can think about it, but he was totally taken by surprise, so he kind of had to awkwardly apologize and Cari, who is honey number two, is like, I'm just gonna head home. Like, this is a little awkward.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: Right? So she leaves and umm Dave then... So, okay, so she leaves, Liz is like, okay, got my stuff. Sorry to bother you, I'm heading out. So Dave decides... He's now alone, right? They've both left. He calls Cari, the one who had come over, honey number two.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she's like, hey, you know, what, like, since we both are not doing anything, why don't you just come to my place in Macedonia? So he's like, okay, we're still on. So, he hops in his car.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The hottie still wants me.
Christine Schiefer: The hottie still wants me, even though the other one came up, came over, so, you know, may-maybe he did things right. So he arrives at her place and she tells him, you know, she doesn't exp... She's very upfront, very clear, says, I don't expect monogamy, so like, that doesn't bother me that you have another partner. I don't expect anything serious, I'm happy with a casual relationship, same as you. So, Dave is like, thank God, like, this is a perfect setup. We get along so great. We're super casual. Then they're spending like every, almost every day together, and Dave believes they're pretty clear about where they stand, but one day, three weeks into their relationship, he's at work and he receives a text from Cari and it says, hey, we should move in together.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So, suddenly he's like, I must have misjudged the situation, or she was lying about like what she really wanted or like not being truthful to herself or to me, so Dave is totally shocked, he's like, we've agreed to a casual relationship, we've known each other for two freaking weeks or three weeks. Uh, so he's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Have they even said, I love you?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, you know, I don't think so.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, or maybe they have, but that's information I had not gotten, so I do not know. But, you know, considering they're trying to be as casual as possible, it sounds like probably not, umm, but so he tell... Turns her down and says like gently, like, hey, no, I thought we agreed this was casual, like, I'm not ready for such a big move, and she responds partially, fine. Fuck you.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, okay, so...
Em Schulz: Super done. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I dodged a bullet here... Yeah, we're done. And she starts sending him texts all day, like, you've ruined my life, and fuck you, and you mean nothing, and limp dick, like she's just like...
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: Bullying the shit out of him. So Cari had spent the night at Dave's place that night before, and he had left uh when she was still in bed, and he had gone to work at like 6:00 AM, but when he came home for lunch, just to see what was going on and see if she was there, she was gone and all her things were gone, so she had clearly, like vacated the premises. Umm, Dave described it as being bummed out, like he was, he was kind of sad that things took such a turn 'cause they had been having so much fun, but then he thought, well, it's been only a couple of weeks, maybe I just didn't know her as well as I thought and she just put on a good front, so.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He tried to move on, but Cari like wouldn't leave him alone. Every day he's getting these like harassing texts, calling him a bastard, threatening to destroy his life, threatening everything he cared about. Eventually, sheriffs show up. He's at work and he gets this comment from a co-worker who says, hey, the Sheriff is here and apparently wants to speak to you, and he's like, I've never been in any sort of legal trouble, any sort of criminal issue. So, he's a little bit taken aback, but when he goes to talk to the sheriffs, they're like, what can you tell us about Cari Lea Farver?
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, oh, well, we were dating, so of course, sheriffs are... The sheriff is immediately intrigued to like, okay, well, you're a good, uh, puzzle piece here in this, in this puzzle, the puzzle being the fact that Cari's mother had recently reported her as a missing person, and uh as far as her mother knew, he was dating a guy... She was dating a guy named Dave when she disappeared.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Dave is like, look, I don't know what to tell you. We were dating, then she got all clingy and weird. He showed them the nasty texts Cari was sending, and they were like, okay, you know what, this is clearly just a bad break-up, and she just needed time and was off, you know, recovering, licking her wounds, what have you.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Meanwhile, Nancy, who had, uh, reported her daughter missing, received a Facebook message from Nancy being like, hey, mom, everything's fine. I'm not missing. Like, I just need... Alone. I need to be alone for a while.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, here's the thing: Cari had been diagnosed with bipolar, and so her dau... Her mom was a little bit nervous, like maybe she had stopped taking her medication. And when she had reported her missing, police searched her home, just as part of the routine missing person's report procedure, and it looked like all of the medication had been left in the apartment.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So they're thinking, uh-oh, if she is kind of out there running around umm and she's not medicated, who knows like how she may be reacting? And she could be experiencing a serious mental health crisis. And so, of course, Nancy is thinking, oh no, now I'm really worried. Like maybe, you know, this is clearly so out of character to go non-contact. And by the way, remember her son Max? Her son Max is just like living with his grandma now because Nancy can't figure out where his mother is, where her daughter is.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So she's just watching Max and trying to just calm him and say, oh, you know, she'll be back. Umm. But meanwhile, investigators found Cari's vehicle, it had been abandoned in... And they found it in January 2013, but Cari was not with the vehicle, and they had no idea where she is. And uh investigators nor Cari's mother, nor anyone, I guess, knew how bad things would get because Cari didn't just vanish, she had actually begun this terror campaign against this guy, Dave Kroupa.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Essentially, day in, day out, she is sending him threatening texts and emails. She's using dozens and dozens of new phone numbers, email addresses, so Dave had no hope to block her. Uh it was just one of those things where like, that harassment that you just can't even touch because it...
Em Schulz: Can't escape.
Christine Schiefer: The second you block... Can't escape. You block one, three more come from a different direction. One day, Liz stops by, she's totally distraught. Umm this was honey number one.
Em Schulz: Oh, honey number one. She needs to go into hiding.
Christine Schiefer: And she shows... She shows up, and her car has been vandalized.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Someone has dug a key, like deeply through the side of this... Of her vehicle. And...
Em Schulz: And what year was this? Like... Uh did they have... Did she... Did Cari have the ability to...
Christine Schiefer: 2013.
Em Schulz: Okay. I was gonna say, could she so easily find this woman and know what her car looked like and all that?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, probably. It's a small town, you know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: If you think like Macedonia, like just Nebraska border town.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: I think, I think it's pretty small. And umm, you know, she had seen Liz, when Liz stopped by that one day so she knew enough to know her name, she probably had talked to him about his... Or his, like, other partner Liz.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, there must have been ways that she knew how to find her. Umm, so someone had clearly keyed the car and Dave is now telling Liz, like, please be careful. And then, Dave gets a text from Cari about Liz saying, she is responsible for destroying us, I am more diabolical than a few scratches on a car. So, like you kind of hinted at, Liz is now a target too. And somehow Cari had gotten Liz's phone number and like, like we just discussed, maybe, you know, internet, maybe phone book, who knows, but she gets Liz's phone number and she starts sending her texts, such as, I will do more if you don't leave Dave alone, you whore.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So she's just like now harassing Liz and Dave simultaneously. Dave and Liz both contacted the police about the harassment and they treated it like a standard case, but they were stuck because like nobody knew where Liz was.
Em Schulz: Right. You can't even... You can't even find her to serve her papers.
Christine Schiefer: So... Right. Like how are you gonna... Exactly, like you can't even do a restraining order, exactly. Like how are you even gonna find her? So every day, Cari texted Dave while he was out, and the scariest part was, she started sending him detailed messages about what he was doing and where he was.
Em Schulz: Ew. So she was watching, watching in real time.
Christine Schiefer: So... Watching in real time. Once, for example, he was at a diner having a cup of coffee, and he got the text, how's that coffee taste? And...
Em Schulz: Gasp. Ew!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once uh he was out with his kids and uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck.
Christine Schiefer: His... Yeah. She texted him, umm, like, I see you and the kids out at the park, or I see... Any time he was with them on the weekends, she would like, not only say he's with the kids, but say she knows where he is with the kids.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm she would say... She would text him at work, I see you at work, and then just to prove it, she would describe his customers like, you just helped a woman with a, a weird jacket.
Em Schulz: Ew, oh my God! Like, does she not have a job? Like, what is she doing? Where...
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? It's like, get another hobby. Do... Figure out puzzles or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, one text read, "Every whore you talk to, I take pictures of their plate number."
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: "I don't care if they are just customers, I will go after them."
Em Schulz: Oh my God! Wow, so it's not even... It's not even like people he's hooking up with, it's fully like, just anyone that's in your circle.
Christine Schiefer: It's just any... Yeah. That feels threatening whatsoever. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, like, by the way, is he, umm...
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: Uh. Oh, fuck, I forgot it. Okay, keep going, I'll figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Cari was clearly, like you said, watching him closely in real time and staking him out, so investigators did what the detective described, a reverse stakeout where they're looking for her while she's looking for Dave. Umm... But they...
Em Schulz: Well, I guess it makes sense because if she's near by him, that at least, they know that she's near by him...
Christine Schiefer: She has to be watching.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. But she's like so speedy or she knows better, so they cannot fucking catch her. They even went door to door in areas where she had stalked Dave, like showing her photo, and like, nobody had seen her, she was either hiding in her car or hiding so well that nobody had spotted her. But of course, despite, you know, these just being texts, things escalated pretty quickly. Umm she began threatening Liz's children. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was bad. Umm she... His ex... So, Amy, the one that I initially talked about, the mother of his children, she started to get uncomfortable for obvious reasons. She didn't want the kids staying at Dave's apartment with this stalker, you know, running around. So instead, he would go to her house to spend time with them there. And Dave felt like immediate immense guilt about all of this, like, I brought this, this woman into our lives, like I trusted her, and now look what she's doing, she's ruining... She's going for everybody else in my life. Like, I've brought this person upon us and upon my kids, my ex. And he felt especially about for Liz, his honey number one, because she is getting like the brunt... Aside from him, she's getting the brunt of all this. And he wanted to protect her and probably to Cari's major chagrin, uh, they began to bond over their mutual stress over this whole situation and rekindle their relationship. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, come on, like a bond forged in hate is stronger than anything else. Like...
Christine Schiefer: A trauma bond? A shared enemy? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, all she's doing is giving them more reasons to like each other.
Christine Schiefer: Like leading them into each other's arms. Yes. So at this point, Dave receives a text from Cari's phone. Umm, and Cari has texted photos to him of the inside of Liz's house.
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck that! Like immediately, like... By the way, why is Liz not just ending things with him, being like, you call me when this is handled.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's almost like the way that they phrased it was like he wanted to protect her, and he became so sort of like... He felt so responsible for the situation that, I guess, he kind of swooped in and was like... And, and they'd been like on and... On again, off again. So he just sort of swooped in and was like, hey, I'll... I'll stop this and I'll make sure you're safe." And I guess, for whatever reason, she felt safer with him than without him. Umm.
Em Schulz: You know, what's even creepier too is like, uh, uh, I mean, I don't know where we were in 2013, I mean, that's laptop material. Like that, she could have taken, like logged into different passwords in her house.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And she could have access to her phone, so she knows when they're texting.
Christine Schiefer: That's very true. I hadn't even thought of the laptop thing.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah. So he starts getting these photos of the inside of Liz's house, and when they rush over or he rushes over to the house and Liz comes and they look inside and above her bed, in red lipstick, Cari had written, "Go away, whore."
Em Schulz: Oh, this girl's nutty. What is going on?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Things are...
Em Schulz: This is crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Things are bad. So she then breaks into Dave's apartment next, where she lays out some of Liz's clothes on his bed, like that she had taken from Liz's apartment, and she had cut them with knives...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And she just sprawled them on... There's like photos of it. Sprawled them on top of Dave's bed and then texted him, "She will die. No one can stop me."
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: Is that not so fucking scary? And this went on for over a year, Em. And Dave, Liz, and Amy, the other, like the, the mother of his kids, were convinced that this was going to end badly. Like this is gonna escalate and escalate until someone is seriously hurt or killed. Umm, there was, at this point, now a warrant out for Cari's arrest, but she's still in hiding. And Dave basically described it in an interview as slowly, your normal kind of devolves into abnormal. The paranoia is your life.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And I've heard this from other stalking victims who say like, "You just learn to live in this heightened state where you're constantly on edge; you're constantly looking over your shoulder. It just becomes normal." Like normal behavior for you and your family. And this is what had happened. So, he even got to the point where he said, his reality and imagination began to overlap. It was almost like he couldn't tell where... Whether he... Cari was nearby watching, and whether he was safe, or whether Cari was just lying and saying like, "I see you." Like, was she really there? He never really knew. And so it was like mind games, almost. You know?
Em Schulz: I, I mean even like, I can't imagine, even if you're on like vacation or you get away from a weekend... For a weekend, how do you know, that she didn't like book the same flight? How do you know that she didn't follow your car?
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: How do you know, that there's not a a tracker on your suitcase?
Christine Schiefer: Like how much does she see?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. How much can she see? How much, does she know your e... Is she in your emails? Like, does she know when you're flying? It, it when you come home...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is your house gonna be ransacked because you were traveling for a week? You know? It's really, really scary. And, uh, perfectly on time, things escalate because one day Cari sends him a text that reads... And he's at work and he gets this text that says, "I see that nasty whore's house on fire."
Em Schulz: Gasp. Was she in the house?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So, on the way home, on not the way home, on the way to Liz's home, he receives a second text that says, "I hope the whore and her kids die in it."
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: So he jumps in the fucking car, he races to Liz's house. It's on fucking fire, like the entire place has burnt to the fucking ground. And thank God, Liz is okay. She got out of the house, she's sobbing, like having a mental breakdown. Fortunately, the kids were not at home for the... They were with, I believe, their dad for that night. But all the pets in the house were killed in the fire.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh my God. Her big snake!
Christine Schiefer: Her big snake, two dogs, and a cat, which is...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, thank God, the kids were not there, but still like, pretty devastating. And the whole house burned down. So Liz is like, "I'm moving away and I'm not telling Dave where I'm going."
Em Schulz: Duh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And he goes, "You're correct. Please do that. I don't want you to be part of this anymore." And in fact, he actually moved away as well, partially, uh, due to the fact that Cari had sent him a text saying, "Guess what? I moved into your apartment complex."
Em Schulz: Fuck that. Fuck that!
Christine Schiefer: So, apparently that enraged him to such a point...
Em Schulz: But wait, wait, wait, wait... So wait. So now she moved into his apartment complex. So now we know where she lives. Can we now serve her a restraining order? Not that it'll help at all.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So, get this. He goes, he, he's so pissed off that he's like, you know, what? I'm gonna go confront her right fucking now. I'm not even calling the police. I'm gonna go to her apartment now. So he is furious. He walks through the complex, ready to confront her. Umm, he's looking at the text, it says, "Apartment 12." He turns the corner. He's getting more and more anxious about this confrontation. And he looks down the hall, looks at the doors, he realizes there is no apartment 12. She just made it up to fuck with him.
Em Schulz: Aargh!
Christine Schiefer: And so at this point, he's out of there, he moves, he gets a new phone with a new phone number, a new job. He's like, I need to start fresh. And you know, back when he met Cari, he had just started fresh. So he's like, hopefully, I can just like clean slate, start over. Umm, but meanwhile, Nancy is still like really worried about her daughter, even though, you know, uh, she's apparently allegedly like harassing everybody and being, you know, blamed for this arson and stuff, it's still her daughter and she's still really worried about her mental health crisis. She really wants to find her. And, umm, within her own family, Nancy's family, umm, her dad... Her husband, I'm sorry. Nancy's husband, Cari's dad, was terminally ill. And, umm, you know, Nancy is texting or, or Facebooking, uh, Cari and saying, "Your father's dying. Like, please, you need, like, he wants to see you before he passes." And she's only getting like really short answers back. And you know, Nancy's just pretty distraught that Cari would leave when her father was, you know, dying of a terminal illness. And unfortunately, Cari's dad did pass during the time she was missing.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And when Cari missed her dad's funeral, her mom was like, "Okay, something is terribly wrong."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, in the Netflix documentary, by the way, it's called Lover, Stalker, Killer, uh. Nancy says, quote, "Two weeks, three weeks after he passed... " So this would be her husband or Cari's dad. She said, "Two weeks, three weeks after he passed, I had this very vivid dream about him. And in that dream, he said, 'Nance, Cari's with me. It's okay.'"
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: So now, according to her and her mother's instinct, she is sure that her daughter, Cari, is dead.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And 14... Max is 14 at this point, so she's just trying her best to give him some stability. She's just lost her husband. She can't find her daughter. And although Cari...
Em Schulz: She's raising another child. All that stuff.
Christine Schiefer: She's raising a pre-teen, who is also wondering where his mom is.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And although Cari had spent over a year terrorizing Liz and Dave and their families, to Nancy, of course, she's still like her, her daughter, and vulnerable and missing, and likely in need of medical intervention. And Nancy, like I said, is convinced Cari has passed. So, she continues to pursue the missing person's case. And two Pottawattamie County sheriffs became interested in the case as well when they get some information on it. At first they thought of it as just a compelling puzzle, like, where is this woman? But once they met with Nancy and spoke to her about Cari, they decided, you know what? This is a little weirder than we thought. We're gonna dig into this and find some answers for Nancy. Dave, uh, meanwhile is bouncing back.
Christine Schiefer: He's trying to start fresh. And once again, he's in a new place with very few connections, and he decides he is gonna give dating another go. So he matches on Plenty Of Fish with a woman, and they seem to hit it off and they arrange a date. And she's, he's sitting in the restaurant and, uh, she's late, so he's like, "Oh God, maybe I'm getting stood up." And then his phone buzzes and it's a text from this woman and she says, "I'm so sorry. I'm running late, but I'll be there in a few minutes." He waits, he waits, he waits. Another hour goes by, she still never shows. So he gets up to go and his phone buzzes. He looks at his phone and it's a text from that same woman he's about to meet for, for dinner drinks. And the text says, "This is actually Cari, fuck you."
Em Schulz: And she probably watched from the car that he just waited around for somebody else.
Christine Schiefer: Was getting up to leave... Isn't that so freaky? It was like when he got up to leave, the phone... The text came through.
Em Schulz: That's also so terrifying that like she was able to create a whole new account that she knew he would maybe swipe on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. To match with. Ugh, God! Ew. That's so creepy. I hadn't thought of that.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So, so basically, now that this door has been almost reopened accidentally, Cari begins to double down on her attacks. Suddenly Amy, who from the beginning wasn't really part of this... Like, it was just Liz usually.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Because Liz was a more active partner and spent more... Was a more threatening, I guess, uh, character to Cari. But now Amy, umm, his ex-wife, Dave's ex-wife, and the mother of his two kids, is also getting these alarming texts.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, one day she's at the park with her kids and a text comes through from Cari reading, "Ryan is on the slide."
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: I mean, and like the heart sinking to your stomach feeling. I can only imagine. So she's, of course, like, "Oh, shit." She's, uh, running through her mind like, panic, what do I do? And then her... The phone buzzes again. It's another text. It reads, "And you are pushing Lexi on the swing." So, she's like...
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: "We're outta here." Packs up the kids and heads out. And Amy gets more texts from Cari that say, "Keep away, stay away from Dave." One, uh, according to Amy, and she clearly had a hard time reading these aloud on the documentary, umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But she read one of the texts that said, "I'll slit your kids' throats in their sleep."
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: This is like Dave's kids, you know, it's like, it's just getting out of control to the point that...
Em Schulz: I mean, like, if she can't have him, nobody, nobody can.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Anybody, everybody is a threat and is in, in danger. Umm, so one night, Amy found, this is just like a sad little side anecdote, but she found her young son asleep on the couch with a baseball bat. And when she asked why he wasn't in bed, she woke him up and, and he said, he, he said he was going to protect, protect them.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: His mom and sister. And that's why he was sleeping on the couch. And he was like pretty little, I don't know how old, maybe eight or uh, I'm not sure, but a little kid. And so at this point, uh, Dave is telling his family about this and Dave's father is like, "You know what? Enough is enough. This woman is making your life a living hell and this is gonna get physical." So he bought his son, Dave, a pistol. And Dave was like, "I'm not a gun guy. Like, I'm not the type to carry a gun." So he put it up in his closet out of reach of his kids. But one night, he came home, uh [1:27:35.6] ____.
Em Schulz: It was missing?
Christine Schiefer: Opened it, it was missing.
Em Schulz: Oh fuck me! Oh my God. Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: It was missing.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: He, the way he describes it, he says, he opens the closet to get something and he notices the box has been moved, like to, 'cause it's always been in the same spot. He hasn't touched it. And he opens the door and it's in a, it's shifted slightly. And he's like, "Somebody's been in here."
Em Schulz: Does she have cameras like... Like how often... First of all, how often is she going into this house when he's not around? Second of all...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that scary too? You don't know.
Em Schulz: And, but like she must comb through his entire place every time, 'cause why would she see a box in a closet and think that that needed looking through? Also, why are we not putting security cameras in this damn house yet? What is going on?
Christine Schiefer: I know! I mean, I think back then, like you think that was 10 years ago. I think this is like pretty early for, you know, he's... He works as a car mechanic. He doesn't make that much money. Like, I don't know if he can afford to have like, live stream cameras set up, you know? I mean, obviously at this point, I can see why you'd probably make room for the expense somehow, but who knows if he could afford it? Who knows if that was even an option in their area? Like, I don't know. I just...
Em Schulz: I even...
Christine Schiefer: I just know that was such a shift in technology back then, like 2013, like we were still in college. I still had like a fucking Blackberry phone.
Em Schulz: I even wonder if he, if he moved, if he up and moved, and even Amy moved and everyone like, would she fly? I mean she would, I don't even know why I'm asking. She would fly and find him.
Christine Schiefer: Like follow them?
Em Schulz: Yeah, right?
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like it. I mean, clearly this has become like her full-time career at this point. Umm, and the gun, like I said, isn't, is missing now. So he is just like, "Shit. Ah... " So, meanwhile, authorities are looking through the report. Umm, those two detectives specifically who met with Nancy, Cari's mom, are trying to like untangle, what on earth is going on here and where is Cari? And so they go back and look at all the photos, the original report, uh, about Cari's first disappearance. And when they're looking through photos of her apartment and her and her belongings, it looks like she hadn't taken any of her items, any of her things. All her clothes, shoes, personal items are still at home, as if she had planned to come back any moment, not to mention all her medications. Then when they looked into her bank history, they see there were only two transactions shortly after the, after she left, and she never took out cash. And so they're thinking like...
Em Schulz: Weird. How is she surviving?
Christine Schiefer: How is she getting by without all, without any money? So the investigators start thinking, "Maybe Nancy is right. Maybe we don't have any evidence that Cari is alive. The only proof are all of these messages and emails that had come from her. But technically, anybody could have sent those."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And nobody had seen Cari Farver in over two years.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I've got my theories now.
Christine Schiefer: So, the question became, if not Cari, then who has been stalking and tormenting Dave, Liz, Amy, and their families for the last two years?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, this is where a special guy who's special in my heart comes into the picture. His name is Tony Kava and he is the volunteer IT specialist at the sheriff's department. Uh, the... They describe him as a volunteer... He's hilarious, by the way. Umm, he walks into the interview in the documentary holding all these cups. So like immediately, one of my, one of me... A person like me. He comes in with all these just cups and he's kind of stumbling around. Umm, and he starts describing what [chuckle] is in each cup. [chuckle] Like, what beverage. And he's like, "This one has caffeine. This one has caffeine, this one has caffeine." Umm, [1:31:21.4] ____ when asked what he was drinking...
Em Schulz: [1:31:24.7] ____ someone's like everyone's dad. Everyone's dad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it does. It's a very dad... And he'd asked like specifically what he is drinking and he said, "Soylent." And he said... They said, "What's Soylent?" And he said, "It's what nerds drink instead of eating."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: He said, "For the most part, I just drink two or three of these a day and then eat some hummus." And he said, "Also, I don't know if it's clear, but I'm also, uh, apparently on the spectrum."
Em Schulz: Oh! [laughter] Okay. He is someone's dad, for sure. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He's such a delight, he is just like too funny, like the way he describes himself and he is just like, "I don't know, they say I'm on the spectrum." Umm, but then, he's like, "Anyway, these are all my many cups. Do you wanna hear about my Soylent?" uh. So it just... It just made me laugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Is it... My friend. I, I haven't even seen the show. I don't know what your face looks like, but I do know probably with soy-tainty, you are, uh, something's going on. Something's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He... Yeah. And he actively addressed that. And it's so funny, he's a volunteer IT guy, and they said they pay him $1 a year because he just wants to be part of it.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: So they just give him $1 to do it. And like, he's really good at his job.
Em Schulz: He sounds great. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Umm and so yeah, he does. He is. And so he's like, "You know, what? I'm gonna get in on this case. Like something is going on here." So, he spent countless hours digging through the data of thousands of emails and texts from "Cari". And he is searching for an IP address. So for those who don't know, it's the internet protocol address. Umm, it's the number which each computer has. Umm, and it, you're able to basically trace a message back to a source and location. But if you're using a VPN, a Virtual Private Network, you can reroute your IP address and it'll come from somewhere else. So, you can almost hide your location and it can make your data private. So this guy, Tony, decides he's gonna write his own computer program to sort through all of this data because it's two years' worth of messages and emails. And he's like, "Tracking every single IP address from every single one of these texts is gonna take forever." So he writes a whole program...
Em Schulz: Good for him.
Christine Schiefer: To begin sort... I know, to begin sorting through this immense amount of data until he's able to start narrowing it down. So there are millions of IP addresses that he's sorting through. And this program is able to narrow down all these IP addresses to 13,000 unique IP addresses. And then he's then able to use the program to determine the top 10 most used. Of those 13,000, 8 of those were untraceable VPNs, but one of them stuck out. This was the number one most seen IP address out of the millions that he sorted through.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And I quote Tony directly, he said, without looking at a flashcard or anything, he goes, "Oh, that IP address was 174.71.6.113... "
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But he... He is... He is... Something's going... He's, umm, at the very least, incredibly invested in something he assigned himself to, at the very least.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. And that's how they describe him. They're like, "He just shows up and just fucking knocks it out of the park. Like he just knows how to show up and like, kick our asses and then just take $1... "
Em Schulz: Good for him.
Christine Schiefer: "And go home." [laughter] Yeah, he's, he's great. Like I'm sure he has a separate career path that he actually does, you know, himself but this volunteer stuff, he's just like, "I guess I'll help solve crimes."
Em Schulz: Good for you, Tony.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it's, I know, Tony's just like nailing it. So, and he is very funny. Like he's just very self-aware, you know, about like, "Oh, people say I'm kind of weird." Anyway, you know, so he's great. But so he narrows it down and he finds one IP address, which he just rattles off like it's nothing, 174.71.6.113. And that IP address actually linked to a private home address. So this is a huge clue 'cause this is the most used IP address out of the millions. So, he ran the address... Em, this story... To his shock, the address belongs to, oh my God. Wait. I didn't even realize this until just now... The guy's name is Todd Butterbaugh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So here's the thing...
Christine Schiefer: I didn't remember that. I didn't remember that.
Em Schulz: Between Todd Butterbaugh, Walter Butterfield, and Trent Butterworth, we've got the, the butter trifecta. We've got the hat-trick.
Christine Schiefer: Bonk. That is a buttery hat-trick. That's bonkers.
Em Schulz: That's butter-bonkers. That's but... Butter-nanas. I, that's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that is just wild. So, yeah, he's, it's Butterbaugh, technically with an A-U-G-H, but still it sounds like Butterball.
Em Schulz: Butterball...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Butterbaugh, Butterfield, Butterworth. All right. We know now that...
Christine Schiefer: That's bananas.
Em Schulz: You know, all three of them go into like an attorney at law office, you know, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Butterfield, Butterbaugh, Butterworth...
Em Schulz: Butterworth. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And Associates. And then someone's name is like Schiff, and it's like, well, damn it. You ruined our whole thing. [laughter] Umm, [laughter] I'm sorry we made you partner, 'cause now your stupid name ruined all of the Triple B.
Em Schulz: We thought... We thought you would come in on this silently, but apparently, you thought your name would be on the sign outside. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but I guess you... I guess you're... You think you're special enough for the sign? Fine [laughter] Umm, so Tony is like, "Wait a minute. I know To-Todd Butterbaugh." He's like, "I know that man. I know him." He said, "This was a huge shock because Todd works at Potta-Pottawattamie County and I am his boss."
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Tony is literally this guy's boss. And then Tony, just in case anyone didn't notice, says, "Obviously this was an awkward situation." Pfft!
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they actually had to hide the files on Todd because he worked there and had access to all those files, and they didn't wanna tip him off that they were now investigating him, 'cause he was in their office working with them. So...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Awkward indeed. Awkward indeed.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So, sheriffs go to the address, they speak with Todd. They're like, "Somebody's been using your IP address. Have you been sending all these threatening messages?" And he goes, "No." And they go, "Is there anyone else who might use your internet every now and then?" He says, "Well, yeah, I have this on and... On again, off again girlfriend who sometimes stays over and uses my internet."
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: "Her name is Liz Golyar."
Em Schulz: What? Wait.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: He goes, "She moved in after her house burned down."
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Oh my fucking God!
Em Schulz: Liz is the Looney Tune? Wait a minute.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure... Sure is.
Em Schulz: What... That would make sense why she was able to get into the place and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Cut up her own clothes and her kids were like out of the house. Oh. But she killed her own animals. Oh!
Christine Schiefer: I'm waiting for you to get to it. I'm waiting for you to get to it.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: She killed all her own pets as part of this intentionally.
Em Schulz: Because she walked in one time and saw that he had somebody else... Wait. So then, Cari, she killed Cari and has been pretending to be Cari this entire time...
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Because Nancy has not been able to find Cari...
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: And they've been, and so she's been bonding with him, to get him to be closer to her through this.
Christine Schiefer: And Nancy... 100%. And Nancy had that dream where her husband passed and said, "Don't worry, Nance. Cari is with me."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And she said, "I woke up and I knew Cari had passed."
Em Schulz: Man!
Christine Schiefer: So, it was on... Until her... Ooh, I have chills. It was until her husband passed and was able to get her a message like, "Cari is safe and she's with me," that she finally was like, "Okay, she has passed. Like, I have an answer." Umm. Ooh. It gives me chills. So...
Em Schulz: Wild that you're able to throw in some, like, confirmation of the afterlife into this already banana story.
Christine Schiefer: Right? I know! I mean, okay. And I just wanna say like, I, I felt so guilty the whole time like talking about how like nutty Cari was, 'cause like clearly, it didn't end up being the case. But just so you... Everyone knows, like for two years Cari was the culprit. Like she was the one on the run, harassing people...
Em Schulz: And no one can find her.
Christine Schiefer: And no one can find her. And now I just wanna say, justice for Cari. Umm, you know, and I think what they did too is like they took that bipolar, uh, umm, diagnosis, and ran with it. And were like, "Oh, well she's clearly unstable." You know? 'Cause she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she must be the one sending all these threatening texts. Meanwhile, Liz is just getting off scot-free.
Em Schulz: Now that's...
Christine Schiefer: Is this not insane?
Em Schulz: Man. That was...
Christine Schiefer: It's insane.
Em Schulz: And do you... Do we think that she was not actually into Todd at all, but she was sleeping with him, 'cause she needed an alibi? Or not even alibi, but she needed like somewhere to be, and she was just kind of like sleeping with him to like have a place to stay or something?
Christine Schiefer: You know, I don't know. I don't know. Todd was such a... Todd Butterbaugh was such a quick, uh, like blip. It was just sort of how they found out who was behind it.
Em Schulz: But I feel like that... That, no, I think it was fully intentional because then he could come home and like talk about his boss to her, and like she could get tabs on him at work.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. His boss, you mean Tony?
Em Schulz: Like Todd, like... Yeah, like she's like sleeping with Todd currently.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: So that way, Todd will come home, where she's currently living since she set her own house on fire and talk about her... Talk about her... Is, is, is Dave and Todd, they don't work together? They do, but they... Thought they were dating?
Christine Schiefer: No, Dave is auto mechanic. So this is like totally separate from Dave. So Dave...
Em Schulz: Oh. I thought... I thought Tony or, or Todd, I thought Todd worked with Dave... Okay. I got there with... By accident.
Christine Schiefer: No, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Em Schulz: I got there with actually wrong information, but I still figured it out. But... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, my mistake. So To... I'm just... So Tony is the one who's like, I'm on the spectrum, and I just write entire computer programs to solve crimes, and he finds the address and he goes, uh-oh, that's awkward 'cause I'm his boss. He works at the County, he works for the County with me, like alongside me.
Em Schulz: I... I got the story confused where I thought, we were back in the story of Dave saying...
Christine Schiefer: To Dave.
Em Schulz: Oh, Todd works with me.
Christine Schiefer: Right. No, so at this point...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Dave has no fucking clue any of this is happening, like, for what it's... Like, from his perspective, he thinks like Cari's still out there, harass... Trying to find him.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so they go to Todd's house, who works for the County, and they're like, what is the connection here? And he goes, oh, well, my on again, off again, girlfriend Liz sometimes stays the night. She moved in after her house burned on... Burn, burned down and they were like, oh my God. So that's when they realized.
Em Schulz: Sorry, I didn't... Did not mean to confuse everybody, everyone else was already on board but...
Christine Schiefer: No, no...
Em Schulz: Thank you for the... The...
Christine Schiefer: Honestly...
Em Schulz: Redo.
Christine Schiefer: There's so many names that I'm glad we re-clarified 'cause maybe... Honestly, if you were confused, probably other people were, umm, but yeah, so the pieces start falling into place quickly. They now have evidence that Liz is posing... Has been posing as Cari for years.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Harassing Dave and his family, sending message to herself, and then going to the police and saying like, look at these messages I'm receiving. But it gets even wilder 'cause guess what? Now they've gotta catch her in the act.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So now she is a prime suspect in that disappearance, and when they contact Dave, he... Talk about shocked. He's so shocked because in his mind, for two years, he's had to protect Liz. Like, it does not even crossed his damn mind that Cari is not the one behind this.
Em Schulz: Imagine the bombshell, like his... You could hear his skull...
Christine Schiefer: It's a bombshell.
Em Schulz: Probably crack from the brain exploding.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: Like, what?
Christine Schiefer: No, that's like almost... That is almost how he describes it, like just stunning news. And, you know, he felt so... He had felt so guilty about Liz and like trying to protect her, and was trying to evade Cari to find out that like the... The call was coming from inside the house...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This whole time?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It just mess... And then, and then of course, there's the guilt of, oh my god, Cari is dead. If Cari has been gone for two years, like she's probably dead, and Liz probably did it. So now he's coming... Like this is all happening in his mind, too, suddenly Liz is the villain and Cari is the victim, rather than the other way around.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he had spent two years hating Cari 'cause she's like ruining his life, uh, and so, Liz is fully unaware. She's so full of herself, she's un... Unaware that the sheriffs are putting together her whole plot. And meanwhile, because she doesn't realize they're on to her, she ups the ante. She... So, they start tracking her, right? 'Cause they're like, well, now we know prime suspect number one, uh, we're gonna keep tabs on her. Apparently, she has started circling Amy's house every single day. She just drives around the block...
Em Schulz: Oh, oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so now, they know, uh-oh, she has other plans.
Em Schulz: And she has his gun.
Christine Schiefer: And she has his gun. Well, interesting you say that because on December 15th, 2015, 911 dispatch received a call from a local park. A woman was screaming saying she had been shot.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: So when the call came in that a woman was shot in the park, investigators were immediately doubled over sick, thinking that Liz had finally gotten to Amy, and they raced to the scene, and what they find is Liz.
Em Schulz: She shot herself.
Christine Schiefer: She has been shot. She shot herself. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Did she? She did, right?
Christine Schiefer: She did. She did. She did. Yes. She shot herself.
Em Schulz: My God!
Christine Schiefer: Fucking...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And, I mean... So they're like, oh my God, has Amy been killed? They get there, Liz is there. And she says, oh, a woman shot me. It was Amy. And they're like, okay. So they're like, wait, it was Amy? And she goes, yeah, Amy always hated Cari and made threats about Cari. It's like now that she realizes she can't keep up the Cari act forever, she's trying to blame Amy for Cari's disappearance.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause she knows they'll find out that Cari is gone.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so now she's trying to make look... Make it look like Amy has always hated Cari and Amy is so unstable. And they now are, like, mm, interesting, but of course they know, umm, they're pretty confident that uh, that she herself, Liz, has stolen the gun and blamed Amy for it, uh, and then used it to shoot herself. So, fun fact, in Tony's recollection of events because Tony just likes to tell the story in the most fun way, he recounts that when the call came in about this shooting, he was busy directing traffic at a nativity play.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And I love it, because like, it...
Em Schulz: Tony... To... Tony is like the, the character in a Hallmark movie where he just works every side job in town, he just does...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, he's like the guy in, uh, Gilmore Girls that I finally watched, uh, who like... What's his name? Who has like some hand in like everything...
Em Schulz: Like.
Christine Schiefer: The nerdy guy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know his name. I've only watched it in passing, the Gilmore Girls.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you were like really into Gilmore Girls.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why I thought that.
Em Schulz: But no... I... Without even knowing, like, the name of that guy, I know what you're saying.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: He's the crossing guard at school. He's also the volunteer...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: For Christmas festival. He's also the...
Christine Schiefer: He also, on the side, does wedding photography or something...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, wait, what? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Go, Tony.
Christine Schiefer: So, so that, uh, so that... I'm gonna look it up 'cause it's gonna drive me crazy. Oh, Kirk, Kirk, Kirk. He's the Kirk of Gilmore Girls... Or, of, uh, of this town, of Macedonia.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So... Of Pottawattamie Count... He's the Kirk of Pottawattamie County, umm. So or maybe Kirk is the Tony of Stars Hollow.
Em Schulz: Of Stars Hollow. Maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Maybe. Umm, so he... Basically, they just keep that line in about the na... Nativity play for no reason, which makes me laugh so much 'cause you just know the producers were like, we have to keep that in there, even though it's like not relevant at all to the story. Umm...
Em Schulz: I feel like the producer was like someone like us who was like, they'll eat it up, don't worry. They'll know what it means.
Christine Schiefer: They'll... They'll eat it... We need a comedic relief somewhere, okay? Umm. And they nailed it because he cracks me up. So anyway, this all happens, uh, Liz now claims that Amy is the one sending her threatening emails, umm, and the sheriffs, they know what's up, right? So they're like, okay, let's talk to Liz, we're gonna pretend like we believe her and just like walk her into her own trap. So they tell her, hey, you know what? It's hard because like we believe you that Amy is doing this, but you know, we don't have much proof. Maybe you can go back and see if there are any emails that really like are... That incriminate herself... That incriminate Amy in Cari's disappearance.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And so they know that Liz is gonna turn around and start like creating fake emails or fake notes from Amy saying, oh, I killed her, and that's precisely what she did. And meanwhile, the sheriffs... Speaking of the same situation, the sheriffs encouraged Dave to go stay with Amy and the kids to keep them safe, but the sheriffs who did this... Or the sheriff who did this said, they admitted they had kind of an ulterior motive. Obviously, they wanted the family to be safe, but they were like... We hoped Liz would see that Dave moved back in with Amy and his kids...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like to, to goad her. To, to tick her off.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it worked because she immediately, as soon as she found out, she began calling investigators, sobbing and screaming. She said, Amy gets to shoot somebody and then she gets to kill another person, and then she just gets to move in with Dave? And they're like, We know, it's so unfair to you, Liz. We know how unfair it is, but here's the thing, because we have no evidence that Amy is involved, we cannot stop him from moving in with her, but hey...
Em Schulz: Oh, gosh.
Christine Schiefer: If you, if you just happened to find any emails that prove she did it, like, that would be so helpful. So like, immediately after, she calls and says, wow, I found all these emails.
Em Schulz: How fun.
Christine Schiefer: I got them all from Amy. Yeah, how convenient. And the emails detail, which now gets fucked up again, the emails detail how "Amy" stabbed Cari to death and burned the remains. And another email said to... Allegedly, from Amy to Liz, "I shot you at Big Lake Park because you wouldn't stay away from Dave." So she's like, "See, she's admitting she shot me." [chuckle] It's like, okay.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And, of course, they're able to see that Liz is sending the emails to herself, and police know this.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so because they're like, wow, this is too fucking easy, they say to her... Let's say... Let's push it a little further and they say, you know what? This is really great information, but we're gonna need a little more detail, it's too bad she hasn't sent much more detail about really what happened, 'cause if we got those details, then we'd really know. And that's what happened. Umm, meanwhile, they search Cari's vehicle for any evidence of blood. At first, they cannot find any, but then when they remove the upholstery on the passenger seat, they find blood soaked all the way through the vehicle, like into the...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: The base of the seat itself.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, the vehicle ended up being this crime scene they had been searching for the whole time. They also had access to... Now, this is very interesting. Okay. They had access to old data, uh, from Liz's phone due to her initial reports as a stalking victim because she came to the police saying...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Cari's stalking me. And they took her phone. And so they had all that data still and they found on it as they like re-combed through it, they found a photo of Cari's vehicle that was taken while Cari was missing and before police had recovered the vehicle.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So in that window where no one knew where the car was, somehow Liz had a photo of the car on her phone and she was too stupid to delete it before she handed them her phone.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: So in the car, they searched for fingerprints, they don't find anything except one fingerprint on a mint container in the vehicle's center console, and this one fingerprint that she missed on the tin of mints is Liz's fingerprint, proving she has been inside the fucking car.
Em Schulz: Aha. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Finally with this fingerprint, they're able to arrest Liz, and of course, she says she's innocent, you can watch it, it's like really cringey to watch her say, "I've never even seen the car, I've never been around the car, I would never lie about that." And it's like, girl, like you're... Like you're so bad at lying.
Em Schulz: Yuck.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like so obvious. And so, she's insisting like, this is all a lie. I didn't do anything. But Tony, he has not... He is not done yet. Okay. Tony...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: A year... Okay, this just gets crazier. A year or so before he'd started working on this case, he'd actually been diagnosed with a brain tumor. Umm, but he was so invested in the case and that when it started getting the... When it started, uh, heating up, the case, his brain tumor, umm, when he got it checked, it had actually gotten bigger and he needed surgery, but he asked like, if I get surgery, will that impair my ability to work on this case? And they said, yes, it will, for like several weeks, months, what have you. And he said, okay, I'll hold.
Em Schulz: Wha!
Christine Schiefer: And he delayed his surgery because he wanted to work on this case so badly. Umm...
Em Schulz: The way that Tony's hyper-fixation on this is...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: I can't... I... You know what? You go, Tony! You go, Tony! I love you. I love Tony. I hope he knows that.
Christine Schiefer: Tony is... Tony is a star, and he is like, I gotta get this shit figured out so I can get the brain tumor out of my head, so he's on the case. He pesters Dave repeatedly, basically saying... And anyone else on the case saying like, is there any way you have something in storage, in a drawer, an SD card, umm, a microchip... Like anything that I could plug in or a microSD card, like a flash drive, anything I can plug in and see if there's any files to dig through? And, uh, Dave goes, you know, well, I I do have like a storage facility, like a storage container somewhere. Maybe I'll go in and see if there's anything. So he digs through the storage unit, he does some digging around, he finds his old like clunky dusty tablet, like the old school... Like thick ones. And it's dead as a door nail. Doesn't even work. Uh, it doesn't even turn on, but when they check the port on the side, there is a microSD card inside this tablet. So Tony takes it, he looks through it, it's empty. It's been wiped clean. So Tony basically says, hold my beer. And is able to retrieve all the deleted files off of this SD card.
Em Schulz: Yes!
Christine Schiefer: And guess what, there are 11,000 photographs, random photos on this SD... MicroSD card, and there are a lot of selfies of Liz. So he's basically realizing, this is Liz's micro SD card, and as he puts the timeline together, he realizes, this is the SIM card from Liz's old phone from right around the time Cari went missing.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: She must have stuck it into this tablet and either forgotten about it, wiped it clean, and just like hid it away. And so he's scrolling through 11,000 pictures, Tony is. Everything, at blurry pictures, houses, different rooms, selfies in her car, uh, but then he spots one picture that looks different from the rest, and at first, he thinks it's like a piece of Rosewood, he describes it. He like, can't tell... He can't quite make it out, but he keeps switching angles on it and, and messing with the filters, and that's when he realizes that it is actually a picture of a foot, a human foot.
Em Schulz: Like, by itself?
Christine Schiefer: Just like... It's just kind of a blur...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like you just see one item on it and you can tell that it's a human foot.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so, he is looking through this photo and he consulted his copy of Gray's Anatomy, the medical textbook, okay? Because on this picture... Not the show, to be clear, umm, but... Because on the foot, he realizes there's something odd. Uh, he realizes there, there's this almost marbling, so he looks in his Gray's Anatomy medical textbook, and he sees that this Venus Marbling is a sign of post-mortem skin decomp.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And he realizes this is a deceased person's foot. He also sees on the foot a tattoo, and of course, investigators are able to confirm that that is Cari's tattoo. And so Liz, for some reason, had taken kind of a blurry picture of Cari's remains before disposing of them, and this was the final piece that the prosecution needed to put her on trial. So, they took this evidence, they put Liz on trial and she was sentenced to life without the chance of parole for first degree murder, sentenced to 18 to 20 years for the arson, which killed the pets.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And although the survivors of her attacks could finally find some peace, she had wreaked so much havoc in so many people's lives that they were still picking up the pieces for years. Umm, Dave felt sick knowing what had happened to Cari and thinking like Cari was behind it for all this time.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, he expressed his guilt in the Netflix documentary, Lover, Stalker, Killer, which I really do recommend, folks. Like, it's really cool to hear these people tell the story from their own perspective; if only to just see Tony. It's, it's a fun watch. Umm, he expressed his guilt, Dave did, on the documentary saying, I don't feel blameless in all of this, a lot of bad things happen to good people all because of a series of events that I'm at the center of.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And he had to get back to remembering Cari, the way she was those two or three weeks, because even the text from Cari that said, can we move in together? Was not from Cari. That was from Liz.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, from that day on, none of it was Cari. And so he had to try to like rewind in his mind and remember Cari for all the things that he loved about her and liked about her. And, you know, the way he described her was, she had goals, she was smiley, she wanted to do something, she was just trying to make her way in this world. And, umm, you know, she left a son behind, she left her mother behind, umm, and it, it just was really, really tough for him, especially because... And for her mom, as well, obviously, because her mental illness, her bipolar was almost like used to convince people that it really...
Em Schulz: Mm. To weaponize her...
Christine Schiefer: To weaponize against her like...
Em Schulz: Or weaponize her image. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Weaponize her image and, you know, meanwhile, she had been killed and was innocent in all of this, umm, and investigators on the case, you know, felt like they needed to do something as well to honor Cari's memory, after trying to track her down for all this time, when in fact, she was a victim. So Tony said, when this case comes out or gets any kind of coverage, people go out and Google Cari Farver. They googled her name, and the first thing they see is a picture of the person who harmed her, and that is a complete injustice.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't fair what happened to her, it wasn't fair what happened to her family, but now the public is able to donate to the Cari Farver Memorial Scholarship, which is a fund for IT students at Iowa Western Community College, which was Cari's alma mater. And I think it's really...
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: Special as well, because Tony is an IT tech as well, so...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, just like Cari, and he helped solve her murder.
Em Schulz: Well, in terms of storytelling, it was probably one of your best stories ever, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Plot twists galore.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I haven't felt my brain kind of short circuit like that in quite some time, so thank you for the reset.
Christine Schiefer: I, I felt... I felt bad. I don't like to, you know, fool you like that. Like, I like the occasional plot twists.
Em Schulz: I like to be fooled.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good. I just didn't want you to feel like I was like misleading you, you know. I mean, every... I mean, that's what kinda how the documentary goes too, right? It's like, oh, you think it's this person, 'cause it's so obvious and then... Wow, didn't see that coming.
Em Schulz: That was just one good... Good set of story-telling, Christine. That was very, very good.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. And we hit just about two hours, so you know what? One of our shorter episodes, sort of. [laughter]
Em Schulz: One of our shorter ones these days, I don't know what's going on with us, but uh...
Christine Schiefer: Lately we just keep talking, man.
Em Schulz: Well, we get to keep talking after this because.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: If you are on, uh... If you are a member of our Patreon, you get to hear us in our after dark/after hours/after something...
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: It changes every week.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, uh, and then on top of that, separately, you and I are recording another episode after this, so we are just yapping all day.
Christine Schiefer: Woop! Woop! We're recording our listener episode for May, so that'll be exciting.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We are, uh... What did I say... What was my story... The talkies is like that's what today feels like.
Christine Schiefer: We're doing a talk... We're doing a talkies, yeah.
Em Schulz: Just... We would have really... This is today's vaudeville, we are... We're doing that.
Christine Schiefer: Modern vaudeville. Yep.
Em Schulz: Uh, well, thank you everyone for listening. This is a reminder, please go pre-order our book, uh, A Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop. It is in our, uh, show notes where you can get the link, also our social media links, uh, or our bios, you can find the link there. There's a whole new book...
Christine Schiefer: Bit.ly/, bit.ly/ahranextstop, if you are wondering, and it works, uh, all lower case as well now. Megan made a lower case one.
Em Schulz: And... Yeah. Please go pre-order our book. It helps us with our first week of numbers, and...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. It's not A-H-R-A. It's just A-... Bit.ly/hranextstop. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Em Schulz: Pre-order now, and, uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's... Oh.
Em Schulz: Please join our Patreon, if you want it... Nope. Christine wants to get out of here. And...
Christine Schiefer: I just have to pee. That's...
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
