[intro music]
Em Schulz: You are so pretty.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, did you say that, 'cause that clip came out where... Well, it didn't come out... But you said that looked like shit.
Em Schulz: No, I, I, I meant it when I said it probably.
Christine Schiefer: But thank you. Thank you. You did, you did. You stood by it, but thank you. Ah, I showered last night, so my hair is.
Em Schulz: Mmmm.
Christine Schiefer: Clean. You're welcome.
Em Schulz: Very nice. I um, I... What did I do last night? Oh, oh, I organized my little shelf right here, there's a shelf. Um.
Christine Schiefer: How exciting.
Em Schulz: Yep. [laughter] But, but it has... She's been dusty, and so I... It was like a... And you know I like my tchotchkes. I got a lot of things, and so it ends up...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: ADHD is so funny because I like...
Christine Schiefer: Is it?
Em Schulz: I so desperately crave... Well, it's funny in a way, we're like, if you laugh, at least you're not crying.
Christine Schiefer: In a sick way, in a sick way.
Em Schulz: But, um, I like all my little things or my little trinkets, and so uh that makes it harder later because I'm des... I'm always hyper-fixating on buying these all things and impulse spending.
Christine Schiefer: All right.
Em Schulz: And then to clean means to take every little thing, often have to dust every little thing, and then it makes you wanna clean even less. So um, I have a bunch of things. They were all needing a bath, so we have...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: We did a little late night cleaning, it took two episodes of Law and Order, um, but we did it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh oh oh that's not bad.
Em Schulz: I was, I was going, I was going pretty quick.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that feels like pretty, pretty quick. I feel like... I would, I get... I don't know, I don't even wanna show you. I was gonna show you my office I started organizing and it looks... You know, when you start some, you know, but like you start a project and then like, it's such a big project that like it gets so so much worse before it ever gets better.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's bad, like it's really bad.
Em Schulz: Oh huh, why do you think for the last year I've been showing this background and not the one with the Captain America shit because...
Christine Schiefer: Right. [chuckle] Yeah, it's simply not happening.
Em Schulz: It is a landmine in here, it's awful.
Christine Schiefer: It's not happening. It's bad. And then I keep like wanting to like buy stuff to organize, but then I just have more stuff.
Em Schulz: And more boxes you have to [0:02:19.7] ____ more plastic and... Then you have to bring up the tools, and then the tool box is everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Binders and folders. I organize all our paper, God. We're so old and boring, Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: I am, who cares.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, [0:02:32.9] ____ organize my files.
Em Schulz: I mean, you know what, either people that are listening are going through it right now, have gone through cause they're older than us or younger, and we're just serving as a warning that this will become you, so. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, this is your future. Get over it.
Christine Schiefer: It's useful no matter who's listening. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Um I have a few reasons why I drink, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good, tell me everything.
Em Schulz: Uh, one is a good one, and I wanted to give a shout out to this person because I feel very bad usually when I get recognized in public, I like have some wherewithall to like talk back to them and like, get like... Start a conversation with them. But they caught me in the middle of like, um like a phone call and it was just really frantic because we were...
Christine Schiefer: Today?
Em Schulz: No, no, no, this was um... Well, I guess it was yesterday 'cause I got, 'cause this is how I got my little drinkie. Um I went to my local coffee shop where they know my name, I'm very proud of that.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And I know their names, and they know my order, I'm very proud of it. I can't ever move. Um and so... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean.
Em Schulz: I've always wanted, I've always wanted that little experience, so now that I've got it I have to hold on...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I get, I get that, I mean, my coffee shop knows my dog's name, so I'm, I'm just pretty much content with that, with it, yeah, so.
Em Schulz: Well, so I was standing in line, I was on tran... I was on the phone with my mom, but I was in a coffee shop, so I like really couldn't hear her, I don't think she could hear me 'cause she was on a bus, so it was, it was [chuckle] the worst time to be on the phone. And um I was waiting for my drink to get called and in line there was this uh, this person who had really lovely like Disney style hair like, red...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: But like clearly, like dyed red, but like professionally dyed red.
Christine Schiefer: Clearly dyed red. That's nice.
Em Schulz: Because it wasn't like... You know what I mean? 'cause it wasn't like... It didn't look natural. It had like the like, it had like, I don't know, like not like, I'm not saying like, Oh, it was box dyed. Yeah, I'm saying it was like this vibrant color that like humans don't grow out of their head.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um and it was like big and fluffy, and I was... I kept staring at it and when I went by to grab my drinks, I was like, I'm gonna say something and I went, Oh my god, I really love your hair. And she...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: They, I don't know their pronouns, turned around and went, Oh my God, I love your podcast.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And I went... That was so fucking smooth. I was like, I don't even know how to respond, and I definitely was awkward. I definitely, I like a meme, like the Homer Simpson meme, I just backed away into the bushes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And just walked out of the coffee shop, 'cause I was also on the phone with my mom, I had... I...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you HAD just given a compliment. It's not like you like ignored them or something. Like you, you initiated the conversation.
Em Schulz: I know, but usually after someone says they like my podcast, I like make the effort to like say hi and like you know... I'm, I'm aware that part of them might be thinking, Oh, they just spotted someone in the wild that they want, want talk to. So I'm like, I try to be kind about it. And I just fucking left. And so I, I feel a little weird about that. So if you're listening, you're the reason why I drink. I'm sorry I didn't say hi. Um and then the other one is, I am going to be cleaning all day, so... Which we've already discussed, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, let's not go back to the cleaning, 'cause I can't. I can't think about it anymore um.
Em Schulz: Why do you drink, Christine?
Em Schulz: Um I don't know. I mean. Happy leap day. [chuckle] Why is there an extra weekday? I don't know. There we go.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: That's why I drink. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I've never... Do you practice privately or how do you...
Christine Schiefer: I do, I do practice privately.
Em Schulz: Do you leap around?
Christine Schiefer: I do. I don't, certainly don't leap. Um I haven't leapt anywhere in a long time, but um no, you know. I, I, I guess I don't really have a reason to drink except that... Well, I guess I'll say it, the biggest one, which is gonna sound really alarming, and I'm not trying to be alarming, but...
Em Schulz: Oh god.
Christine Schiefer: I have this... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I'm already, I, I'll call the hospital, what? What?
Christine Schiefer: It's not... Here's how it feels. I already told you about this Em. I just feel like this like sense of dread for the past six, five or six months, like something, really...
Em Schulz: Like someone's gonna die.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like someone's gonna die. Uh and I have been working for two sessions now in therapy only 'cause I've just started with this person um to figure out whether it's... Well, she said, we're not gonna figure it out 'cause that's not how this works, but I'm trying to figure out whether it's a real thing, like a, like a spiritual... Like a some sort of intuitive knowing or if it's my obsessive-compulsive disorder back at it again, because it's very similar to how it mine usually works. So I've just been in this weird head space where like every time I don't hear back from somebody or like, you know, get a weird feeling, I start like... Worrying, something's wrong, and that is not usually like me, I usually... I'm not like very um worried about stuff that I can't, you know, out of my...
Em Schulz: Who's the, who's the person these days you're scared of?
Christine Schiefer: I'm like scared to say it. I don't wanna like make a...
Em Schulz: Is it the person you've said behind closed doors to me?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Still you haven't heard back?
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, no, I have heard back. Well, I didn't, but other people in my family did, so I was like, Okay, fine, that's fine by me.
Em Schulz: So they're alive, okay, that's good.
Christine Schiefer: They're alive. Yeah, so I was fine. Every... I mean, I think everything's fine. I just am feeling very weird lately and very like on edge, which um is exhausting, and so uh I'm just like in this... Well, it feels like you know when you're waiting for the other shoe to drop sort of, like.
Em Schulz: Um-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But I don't know what the other shoe is, so I'm like, is there... Or even if there is another shoe like... Maybe I'm just making it all up, I don't know. So, and that's why I'm reading that book I talked about last time. I got to chapter three or four, I'm like so nervous that people are gonna be like, that is a...
Em Schulz: Controversial book or something.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause I like announce the name of the book. Yeah, like, I don't know, and I'm only two chapters in. Now I'm on like six, chapter six, but it's very woo woo. Like it's like, Oh, like, open. I don't know, I was reading it last night...
Em Schulz: Is it IFS, is that what we're talking about?
Christine Schiefer: No, it's called um, "The Untethered Soul".
Em Schulz: Untethering. Untethered Soul.
Christine Schiefer: Um and so, you know, I like it a lot so far, but like, you know, take that with a grain of salt, everyone, again, I don't... I haven't finished it, I'm not even close to finishing it, but it is very um...
Em Schulz: Didn't you say something about it, that it's similar to IFS or we just talked about IFS and I don't remember in what context.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, 'cause you said that you, that's something you were working on, but...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The idea is that you are kind of removing yourself, so... Yeah, the idea is basically that like there is this like internal monologue like chatter, and it's your own voice talking all the time, incessant, it does not stop. Uh and the idea, I guess, from what I've gathered in this book, is that you are supposed to... The real you, you, are the observer of that voice, like your soul, like your essence, because essentially if you transplanted your consciousness into, like say, the body of somebody else.
Em Schulz: Um-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You would be a different internal monologue, but you would still be perceiving it. It's so trippy. The point is, you are not the little voice in your head, right, and the idea is like, stop relying on that little voice, it doesn't know what it's talking about. It's like if you listen to it, it says bull shit all day long, and then it just completely switches sides depending on how it feels like... My example when... Oh, we did a cross over, by the way, with Live, Laugh, Larceny everybody, it was so fun. I revealed like one of the biggest crimes of my life that I actually committed, um that I've never admitted publicly, and so that was really fun, so go check that out. But I was clearly having like an existential crisis during that recording 'cause I kinda went off the wall, but I was saying, I was listening to my voice, 'cause that's one of the pieces of this book is like, start listening to it, and that bitch does not shut the fuck up. She cannot stop talking. She just, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla on and on, and the book was like, imagine this person sitting next to you in a car, or like imagine them talking to you and they never shut up. Like you're literally watching a movie and they're like, Oh, I should call Frank or Oh, that car reminds me the one I used to drive, like if your friend were sitting there blabbing like that, you would never invite them again, right. But it's like... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: So you kind of have to find a way to like make... To realize that's not you, that's just like you're bla bla bla, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and it like... My example was, I was driving down the street and I saw this mailbox and I went, what an ugly ass mail box like in my head, and then the same exact fucking voice in my head went, that wasn't very nice, maybe they just really like Valentine's Day, and that's why they decorate their mailbox, and I was like, Man, now I feel guilty for bullying that person, do you think karma is real? Hey, I wonder how Taylor Swift got that idea for karma, like it literally is so out of control, if you actually listen to it, it's like shocking how unhinged this voice is. And so you're trying to like notice that in your day-to-day life and separate yourself like, like realize that's not you, you know. And that's not like the truth of all, it's just some dumb voice that won't shut up. That's what I've gotten from five or six chapters, so I will update you and again, I'm sorry, folks, take all of these with a grain salt. I don't know much about the book or the author...
Em Schulz: Well, in some ways, the only reason I asked, I don't mean to interrupt you on your own journey about dread, but that...
Christine Schiefer: My jour... My dreadful journey.
Em Schulz: I was, I was told to, that IFS is controversial, which is what I'm doing in therapy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see, yeah.
Em Schulz: But um I don't know how it's controversial, I, I have my own opinions on why it's controversial, but I'm currently ignoring all those reasons because it's fucking working, so um...
Christine Schiefer: There you go.
Em Schulz: Yeah, take it with a grain of salt. It's, I, it works very well for me.
Christine Schiefer: IFS help me, help me a lot in like a very specific way with the phone anxiety thing, 'cause it pulled like a very specific piece of me out that I was like, Oh, that's who's in there blabbing around. Um but yeah, I think this is a different thing, this is more just like your internal monologue dialogue with yourself that can be so crippling because it can like talk you out of things, it can like get you worked up, it can um get you like changing your mind about things, you know what I mean, like it's not your, it's not your intuition, it's not your consciousness, it's not your soul, it's just like your brain...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Taking all of it and blah, blah, blah, and like comment. Like commentating the world, narrating the world, which is... Once you notice it, it's incredibly annoying, and I guess you said the pinnacle of meditation, which I wanna start doing again is when you like turn inward and your consciousness is noticing that you're conscious. [chuckle] It was like when yourself looks at itself, then you're like really... You know, in the zone. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It so sound like you walk right into like a tent and never came out with a bunch of [0:13:48.0] ____.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so confused. I know. I'm like, I was reading it like, I need to go to bed, I took a weed...
Em Schulz: If it works, it works. Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Weed gummy and I should probably re-read this chapter tomorrow, but... Uh anyway, so, so that's where I'm at, just in a weird place, so I, that book was recommended to me because I've been like, Oh, well, I keep getting these thoughts, and so now I'm like, oh okay. So a lot of those thoughts are probably just my brain being like, just like inserting itself, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's just, you know. You can dismiss it. Um. Like not everything from your own mind is like truth or you know spiritual guidance, sometimes it's just that annoying voice in your head, so I'm trying to, you know, step back from that. But um anyway, that's why I drink. Sorry. Uh it's a lot.
Em Schulz: I honestly, the, the sad part is, I guess we'll, we'll know in a few months if it was intuition or mental illness. So... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or both.
Em Schulz: Or both. Maybe [0:14:41.6] ____.
Christine Schiefer: How fun.
Em Schulz: Then we still won't know the answer, um. But uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's true. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's a rough one. I mean, we talk about it in like a much more like general... Maybe a more intense way on the show, but like in the world of like paranormal stuff, it's like a lot of people like you have to take it with a grain of salt because they might be thinking they're this big shot, and maybe it's actually just like a hidden mental thing so.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's the thing, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: It's very um timely that you mentioned that because I have a story for you.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." You do?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mh-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Tell me everything.
Em Schulz: For the 371st time I have a story for you...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And you're still surprised.
Christine Schiefer: I can't believe I didn't see it coming.
Em Schulz: This is a somewhat of a cult. A metaphysical cult. Um.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And I think you'll like it a lot because it's at least... There's, there's at least a lot to banter of off of Christine, if nothing else, we have the ability to banter.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, honestly, if nothing else in this world we, we have, we'd still have that, so that's... That's good.
Em Schulz: We would find a way.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. [chuckle] you can't stop us.
Em Schulz: Um so this is the cult of Twin Flames. Have you heard of Twin Flames?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, yes, I've watched old docu series. It's crazy.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay, great. Well, then you can um chime in any time...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh, this feels like a crime story, Em.
Em Schulz: I miss something.
Christine Schiefer: Why are you doing this one? This feels like a crime story.
Em Schulz: You know...
Christine Schiefer: I had this on my list. So I should take that off.
Em Schulz: Did you?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, take it up with Saoirse. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I will...
Em Schulz: Uh, I mean, I think it's because originally the concept of Twin Flames is something that's like not necessarily crimey. I think it's like, it's...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, the concept, sure, but yeah.
Em Schulz: Paranormal and spiritual, and then it just kind of devolved very quickly.
Christine Schiefer: Oof bad news.
Em Schulz: But I've also covered other cults in the past, I've covered QAnon where a lot of it starts out with a, like a woo-woo, paranormal spiritual kind of thought...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's true.
Em Schulz: And then it just accidentally falls away, so.
Christine Schiefer: That is true. Good point.
Em Schulz: Um. And I had heard of Twin Flames, but I hadn't heard of like the whole, I've heard about it in passing, like a, like a soul mate, like I just kinda knew the word and that was as far as I've ever gone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, the phrase, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And I like the idea of Twin Flames. I was like, that's nice. Like that seems lovely...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And after, after reading these notes, I went, Oh my. Never mind, um.
Christine Schiefer: Have you not seen the docu series? It is...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Bananagrams, you gotta watch that.
Em Schulz: Well, here we go, this is uh Twin Flames, and before we get into it, I did wanna bring up um, soul mates. So about like, you know, the difference between them.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Because the... I think it was all the way back in Plato's Symposium. And he covers these uh, he does these like fictional speeches that are given to you by like real life people, so.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: These people really existed, but he wrote kinda like fanfic, he wrote these speeches for them. Um. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I never thought of it as fanfic, but that's so good.
Em Schulz: Like a philosopher Wattpad or something. [laughter] And then one of them, I think it was... Uh I'm trying to pronounce it right, Aristophanes.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: He told the creation of humans, which I heard this story all the way back in college, and it was very lovely and um I actually... I knew a very, very watered down version of it, but when I came out, I came out in college or right before college, and the world was not the way that it is today, not that it was in-incredibly worse, but it was nowhere near as great it is in terms of people being generally accepting.
Christine Schiefer: Accepting, right.
Em Schulz: Um, and so one of my friends who was struggling with the fact that I was queer, because I did have a lot of homophobic friends back then, that did not occur to me, I could not have them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: And shockingly all of, all of them grew into very strong allies, so I'm kind of glad I stuck with them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good, look at you changing the world.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's me. That's right.
Christine Schiefer: It's you. I'm serious.
Em Schulz: Um. But the, the very watered down version I heard is the same version that she heard, and it actually kind of broke her out of her homophobia.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: Um which... It was just, it's just a new lovely way to think of soul mates, which is Aristophanes talks about the creation of humans, and originally in this story, which LOL, apparently this was a fake speech, so a fake story, and so the thing that broke homophobe was a fake piece of information, whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Somewhere this homophobe is like, nevermind.
Em Schulz: Everything's a lie. Um so originally, according to this, humans were born as almost like two people squished together, we had two heads, we had four arms, four legs, two sets of genitals, we were just truly like someone just sewed two people together, it seems like, um and...
Christine Schiefer: Very, uh Criminal Minds.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and also I think our heads faced different directions originally, so that way both heads could like be looking at... I don't know, I don't know. Our heads apparently were on different, in different angles on our body.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um and it was technically two beings put together, they had a connected soul because their bodies were connected, and there were three different types of versions of this person. So if you were looking at a two-headed, four-legged, four-armed person, they either were two male heads, two male sets of genitalia, two women, two female sets of genitalia, and then another one who was known as the androgynous, which was one man head, one female head, opposite sets of genitalia.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Or I don't know what their genitalia looked like. Apparently, Zeus changes the genitalia later, but man, man, woman, woman, man, woman, those are the three options. And each pairing was very powerful, very strong, apparently like they... They kind of in the symbolic way now, where it's like, Oh, when you find your person, like they, they make you better, they make you stronger.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Apparently these two-headed people could like even run on all eight of their limbs together.
Christine Schiefer: No, oh. Oh no.
Em Schulz: Which I'm just imagining like a never-ending cartwheel or something. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: That sounds like a mess.
Em Schulz: It sounds like you're gonna get tangled up, like.
Christine Schiefer: It's just bad news, nothing good can come of that.
Em Schulz: Sometimes I look at dogs and running and I'm like, How do they keep all those little things going, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I think, I think about it too, I'm like, Wow, they must all just be so synchronized, you know.
Em Schulz: I know, but imagine, double those legs. I'm like, oh my god, that's a lot of work.
Christine Schiefer: Remember last week we talked about how you put pants on a dog, imagine the pants situation on this. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It feels like it's becoming a bit of a human centipede game of like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Where do the pants end?
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] No.
Em Schulz: So, apparently, fun fact, and I, obviously this again is like not... It's rooted in science, but um I do like the idea of it, apparently the two, two male headed bodies, their body comes from the sun, the body with two female heads comes from the earth and the androgynous people come from the moon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: So I, I, I think that's lovely. And these, these people were so strong that uh the gods became threatened by them.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: But they were in a tight spot, these narcissists, because if they just destroyed humanity, just wipe them out, who would worship them? Right?
Christine Schiefer: Great point.
Em Schulz: But so they had to keep them around, just less powerful, so Zeus, I think with his lightning bolt, unless I'm throwing that in from Hercules.
Christine Schiefer: That's Jose that'd be you some fanfic of your own. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh. Zeus decides to cut every human in half, just like...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Just like split them down. I do think he like strikes them with the lightning bolt, like bam and the whole, they just kind of split in half...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: In someway where they don't bleed out, but okay. Um so this would mean every individual, if he split them up, he would have more individuals to worship him, but they would all have half of the strength.
Christine Schiefer: Oh well, so he want... It's like a win-win for him.
Em Schulz: Exactly, exactly. Win-win.
Christine Schiefer: Got you. Okay.
Em Schulz: So he splits them up and now every person has two arms, two legs and one head, and he warns them that if they ever mess around or threaten him again, then uh he will do it again, he'll split them again, so I guess that means we'd have one arm and one leg and a half of a face.
Christine Schiefer: Oh lord, we're just like hopping around.
Em Schulz: I know, I was like, I wanna do my cartwheels again.
Christine Schiefer: With a one, one eye.
Em Schulz: My, my eight-legged cartwheels. My octopus cartwheels.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine when all those people show up at like um a relay race. [chuckle] It's like, tie your legs together.
Em Schulz: Like, yeah, the three-legged race, but you have eight of them, so you just hold five of them like a continental soldier, like just...
Christine Schiefer: Carry your, carry your egg across the finish line. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know how those games work.
Em Schulz: Me either. I was always bad at them. Oh, imagine, remember when you would do the um... We call it the wheelbarrow when you had to lift them up, and hold them by their legs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh for god's sake. We do that in...
Em Schulz: It will take a million people.
Christine Schiefer: With Leona, at a little gym. And that's like, I'm sure the last I'll ever experience that. 'Cause, no, thank you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, happily probably.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So not only did Zeus split these people up, but then Apollo turns our heads around, this is how I know that our heads were in a different direction.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see.
Em Schulz: Turns our heads around on our bodies to face... This is so sick. To pla... To face the place where our other haves used to be.
Christine Schiefer: Eew.
Em Schulz: That's like some walking dead shit. That's like the, that's just...
Christine Schiefer: Eew, what the fuck.
Em Schulz: So cruel. And it was to serve as a reminder of like, don't mess up, because remember who you already lost the last time you were threatening.
Christine Schiefer: Oooh.
Em Schulz: So dark, um.
Christine Schiefer: By the way, this is like Plato's fanfic. Remember. So like this is coming from his own brain.
Em Schulz: Yeah, he, you know, in today's world, he would have made an excellent like A24 director, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah. Yeah, he's like, I'll do you one better. I'll one up it, just a little bit, like a [0:24:52.2] ____ fucked up.
Em Schulz: Yeah, when they have like Grindhouse productions, it's like just Plato symposium. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Plato, I mean, I don't know, someone's probably gonna write it and be like well, obviously so and so movie was based on the teachings of... I mean, I don't know. Maybe there is already some crossover.
Em Schulz: I mean The Matrix was the Allegory of the Cave, right? That was...
Christine Schiefer: Uh yes, yeah, yeah, I have heard that.
Em Schulz: So you're kind of on top of it, people who already...
Christine Schiefer: I guess so.
Em Schulz: I mean, through, if you ever read Plato's Allegory of the Cave it's like one of the only things I've ever actually like read and enjoyed from beginning to end, it is carbon copy, like they didn't even write a script for The Matrix, it's just the Allegory of the Cave, it's like... Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Really? I like could not get behind the Allegory of the Cave, I was like, what the fuck are you people talking about?
Em Schulz: It... I read it when I was like 17 and all moody and I was like, the world doesn't understand me, but it was... It was perfect timing.
Christine Schiefer: You were like, Neo understands me.
Em Schulz: It was like, I'm gonna go see the world for what it is, but all these bul... All these people just blind to reality, they won't even look, you know. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you sound like me. I think I was just [0:25:55.0] ____ and Sarah. Not reading Plato, but, yeah. Love that for you. Good job.
Em Schulz: Also my, my... I've talked about this before, but my teacher, like the teacher who like changed me, he was uh, our philosophy teacher, so he...
Christine Schiefer: That will do it.
Em Schulz: He was meant to change the lives if he's gonna be teaching philosophy to 16-year-olds who just like question everything.
Christine Schiefer: Who ever wants that job. That is quite a job to take on.
Em Schulz: Well, anyway, Apollo is just so cruel and turns our heads around to look at where our best friends used to be.
Christine Schiefer: Nice.
Em Schulz: Then he takes the loose skin from that's left over on all of us 'cause we're all...
Christine Schiefer: Eew.
Em Schulz: Mangled now. And he wraps it up tight around our bodies at the naval creating our belly buttons. I feel like Plato...
Christine Schiefer: Did Plato not learn about the birds and the bees?
Em Schulz: I feel like Plato was like, you know, someone's gonna ask about the loose skin. I'm gonna have to just figure out what to do with that, and just threw in belly buttons.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like he over, he over-thought that one, 'cause I don't think anyone was thinking about the loose skin, I think we're all thinking about that he just cut a bunch of people in half and twisted their heads around, but uh sure... I guess he was covering all his bases. Sure.
Em Schulz: He took a weed gummy, I think he was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, oh well. Okay. Now, don't give weed gummies a bad name, but yeah, you're probably right.
Em Schulz: So when I heard the story, what I um... The very watered down version in college, I don't know if this is true or not. But what I heard was that after this, because these people were so scared of the event, like the strike of the thunder or the lightning or whatever, and then splitting in half, they were so scared, they just ran off in fear and they ran off in different directions all losing each other.
Christine Schiefer: Scattered.
Em Schulz: Scattered. And they all lost their person, and so, uh which that was kind of the the version I heard someone explain...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Queerness at the time because it was such a... There was no spectrum, there was none of this...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It was just, uh... Someone described it to me, and my homophobic friend as, oh well, like, you know, everyone's missing somebody regardless of who they are. And I was like, oh, that's very lovely. So...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Props to the person trying to be progressive at a... Not as progressive time, um but so they scatter. And so god splits up their bodies, but by doing this, he also split their souls, and ever since this day, we have been wandering the earth aimlessly searching for our literal other halves.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine if we got split again, and now we have fourth of a soul and it's like, well, we're never gonna figure this one out. [laughter] Like now we need to find four of ourselves. Oh god.
Em Schulz: Oh you know what, see, as we're gonna talk about Twin Flames a little bit, I, I feel like it would... You, people would just kind of turn that into like, Well, one is for love, one is for friendship, one is for something...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And you would have multiple...
Christine Schiefer: But imagine, imagine the mess, though. Like three is company, right? Four, four is what of it? [chuckle] Like four is as a fucking shit show and a dra... Like the unnecessary drama, you know. Four is a crowd, I think they say, but...
Em Schulz: Unnecessary drama, which is where I live though. I live on the corner of unnecessary drama and filth, so.
Christine Schiefer: Woah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: Every now and then.
Christine Schiefer: Is that where your coffee shop is? So you never can move. Um, I'll have Zeus split you in half so you can have another little...
Em Schulz: A little space. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Journey.
Em Schulz: Do you believe in soulmates? I feel like I've never asked you.
Christine Schiefer: I believe in uh people who reincarnate together and have spent lives in different relationships with one another. But I don't believe there's one person that you're meant... Not in like the traditional like high school sense, like, he's my soulmate. You know.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Not, not like that. What about you?
Em Schulz: Oh I'm about the same. I think, I think maybe like we're all...
Christine Schiefer: I think we've, I think we've kind of like talked about that element of it like being, like repeating lives with people with souls...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That we've known before I felt like we've talked about that.
Em Schulz: I think like we're all like stardust that kind of like we happen to be part of an explosion at the same time or something where like we just all our molecules feel relatable in some way, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: What? Wait. What? Oh. I was like, uh-huh. Wait. Your, our...
Em Schulz: I feel there's like there's something trippy about stardust and like we all can sense something...
Christine Schiefer: You sound like John Green or whatever.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay, sure. I'll take that.
Christine Schiefer: The Fault in Our Stars. It feels very young adult. We're all stardust.
Em Schulz: We are all stardust. We are literal stardusts. Uh, so, I uh, but no I feel like there's, I think physically, I think there is something about... I don't know, 'cause I don't know, I feel like there's a physical element and I feel like there's a spiritual element, and I agree totally with the spirituality-wise, I feel like there's a reincarnation. We keep fighting each other. I don't think we're always the same role, I think that...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Like the way I describe it to Allison, I think I've told you before about the nail salon...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Uh An-A-Analogy. Allison and I uh have asked like, how do you think we like knew each other in a past life, and I feel like her and I never knew each other. I think this is a new time for us.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Um I feel like maybe she was like a mutual... We had a mutual soul friend, maybe it was you. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, do you think I did? Because, I mean, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I feel like you and I have definitely crossed paths in the past.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's annoy, it's annoying. I feel like we were siblings, that's the vibe I get.
Em Schulz: Yeah, something like that. And I feel like Allison is male.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like we have this contentious thing.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Not contentious but like a si-sibling, sibling, you know, like that vibe. But just like... You know.
Em Schulz: Something. I... Well, with Allison, I've said, I feel like we were both up in like some middle ground, so like we were in like, we were in some astral plane, this is like the story I like to imagine of how we came to be, is that when you die, there's some sort of like waiting room where you're waiting for all your people before you like have a meeting with somebody about what your next life is gonna be like, and, and relationships you wanna have with these souls. And I like to think that Allison and I were just like in a nail salon together as two random people in the waiting room, waiting for our own individual meetings about where our lives were gonna go, and we just bumped into each other, sat next to each other at the nail salon, just kinda just started up conversation and we were gabbin and it was kind of fun. And then I got called in for my meeting and I was like, I don't know who that girl is, but bring her in. I thought she was kinda cool, so that's...
Christine Schiefer: And then she just moved away from her own journey of soul to be in yours. [chuckle] Wow.
Em Schulz: Somehow the world's merged, I guess. But um, but that's the story. I feel like there's we, even at... Even in a different liminal space, I feel like we met at random and I just kind of worked out.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Um. Yeah, I mean. I don't know. I feel like there's a...
Em Schulz: I don't know. Just a fun story.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there's uh, there's a lot. I mean, you should, I know you're not gonna read it, but you should read "Journey of Souls" or listen to it on Audible, um because that I feel like it was so mind-blowing to me. And it's the concept of what happens between lives.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And and the way he answered that was by doing regressive hypnotherapy on tons of patients, and then he didn't even do it intentionally, but he noticed that as he was going through pa... People's past lives, they, some of them started describing the in between, like...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Then I decided to like, you know... And he's like decided, where, like where are you? And people describe it, and they were so shockingly similar, all these people's recount of what it's like in between lives that he wrote this whole book on it. And like spent his life, you know, researching that, so it's really interesting, but it sounds a lot like you're kind of waiting room...
Em Schulz: Waiting room.
Christine Schiefer: Analogy type situation. Um I would, I would, if I were you, I would highly recommend that book, Em, um.
Em Schulz: What was it called?
Christine Schiefer: Or on Audible, it's called "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton.
Em Schulz: Oh, if it's on Audible, there's a much better chance of me listening to it, yeah, um.
Christine Schiefer: I listen to it uh and I like the Audible version a lot.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's really good.
Em Schulz: Cool. Anyway, I ended up asking you a question and then taking most of the time to answer it. Sorry about that. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. Go ahead.
Em Schulz: Uh, anyway, so he splits them up. Their heads are all turned about. They have belly buttons now. And in the moments when, uh, they would find each other, 'cause now they, they're searching their whole lives for each other. In the moments where two halves actually would find each other, they became so desperately enmeshed with each other. They wanted nothing to do with anything else out there. They would almost like, forget how to live. It was like just this intense, intense, intense connection. But to a point where they were starving to death or dying of thirst because they didn't wanna do anything but hold each other because they're trying to become one again. Is that like not the saddest thing you've ever heard?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's so fucked up.
Em Schulz: And so Zeus, I guess even narcissists feel bad at some point. And so he was like, uh, okay, maybe I, maybe I fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Well no, he's still serving selfish purposes. He knows if they all die out of starvation, then who's gonna worship him?
Em Schulz: Okay, fair enough. Well, so he decides that he's still not gonna give them their full powers, but he does feel bad enough that they aren't, you know, they, that they're this attached to each other. So this...
Christine Schiefer: Traumatized.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Yeah. So this is where he decides to rearrange genitals, where...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Okay, sure. Why not?
Em Schulz: Two halves could, so that way both halves could essentially have sex with each other and have that like intimate connection. They were desperately seeking by pressing into each other so hard.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: The philosophy's crazy. So then...
Christine Schiefer: Is Plato okay? Like, is he gay? And he was like trying to come to grips with it. Like, what's happening?
Em Schulz: Well, back then, I don't think being gay was all that, it wasn't the way it is today. I don't know. I don't know what he was dealing with. He was dealing with something for sure.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it sounds like it.
Em Schulz: But I feel like every philosopher was dealing with something. Although why are you questioning everything and trying to come up with new answers to things if you weren't going through it?
Christine Schiefer: Get a hobby. I'm just kidding. I love philosophy.
Em Schulz: I think their hobby was philosophy.
Christine Schiefer: I know. [laughter],
Em Schulz: Uh, so yikes. The halves with different genitals could now reproduce. And the halves with same genitals could at least find satisfaction.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: For real. Like wow. Anyway, and here's a note. This is actually, Saoirse wrote a note in here saying that it's debatable. I'm just gonna read it straight from what Saoirs said. It's debatable whether this was actually an ancient distinction of, uh, heterosexuality and homosexuality. The text actually defines love between two male halves is often between a man and a boy. Because this era of Greece often accepted adult men seeking relationships with boys, which is a whole other topic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but so we don't even know if homosexuality was a, a part of this. It's just, we're just reading what, what was going on.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. Okay.
Em Schulz: So now that the people have found each other, the texts explain that they have just this unexplainable, immediate connection, and they will somehow recognize each other deep down and wanna spend the rest of their lives together. They complete each other with their love. And this is where the idea of other halves come from. Same with soulmates.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Umm, and I just wanted to give that quick little one-on-one on the history of a soulmate. Or at least, you know, in...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I, I love that.
Em Schulz: In one facet. Umm, that's the idea of a soulmate I always heard of is like, it's your literal other half that completes you. Which no, they don't. Umm, they just, they just empower you.
Christine Schiefer: Hopefully, they enhance you.
Em Schulz: In case you need to hear that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They what?
Christine Schiefer: They enhance you.
Em Schulz: They enhance you. That's a great way. They, they help you become your better self. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But, Uh, anyway, so now we're gonna talk about twin flames, which is another concept. I, I think it was originally supposed to be similar to soulmates. Umm, the very, again, diluted version I heard was that it was essentially like a soul. I heard it in my sorority. So please take this with a lot of grains of salt. But it was like a twin flame is like a, a soulmate, but like your friend or something. Like, it's a like very close to a soulmate but with a different purpose.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's like it doesn't have to be, Yeah. Romantic or, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like a platonic soulmate is your twin flame.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: In which case I used twin flame a lot when I was in school. 'cause I was like, well, that's the perfect way to describe how I feel about a lot of people. So.
Christine Schiefer: It wouldn't just be one person.
Em Schulz: I always thought it could, you could have.
Christine Schiefer: I think a twin flame is like your other person.
Em Schulz: Hmm. See, I always thought of it as just like.
Christine Schiefer: To have multiple twin flames. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know. Because to answer the question in a different way too, I think you can have different soulmates. I think it's so I, in my mind, I was like, I guess you could have different twin flames.
Christine Schiefer: But not in the store. Not in the traditional sense, though. That's true. Like the traditional sense of a soulmate is like literally the other half of you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I was doing it wrong. Whoops. [laughter], but.
Christine Schiefer: Whatever. I mean, it's not like I was doing it right. So.
Em Schulz: Uh. So there's this, the concept of twin flames, uh, is not the same as soulmates because soulmates are people whose souls are similar to yours. But twin flames as this cult kind of came through, is that the twin flame is the same soul as you, or is truly meant for you. Umm, the idea kind of arose from the 1970s new wage spiritualist movement where there is a super controversial spiritual leader named Elizabeth Claire Prophet, of course her last name is Prophet. I feel like she changed her name on purpose.
Christine Schiefer: She knew. She knew it.
Em Schulz: And.
Christine Schiefer: Well, was it Prophet or profit? Like F-I-T, P-H-E-T? 'cause both of them would really fit for a cult leader.
Em Schulz: Uh, this one, this one was P-H, which is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so she's, it's even like a double entendre, right? It's like profit. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And she'll be like, but I'm not gonna tell you how I spell it. You have to guess, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You guess [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so she popularized this book called "Soulmates and Twin Flames, the Spiritual Dimension of Love and Relationships." And today, uh, I, she was just, that's kind of where this all came from. And it's believed now that twin flames are souls created at exactly the same time. Meant in some way to be combined into one. You have to find your twin flame, and then you will have this big shift in yourself where you are a heightened version of who you are. It's all connected to like ascension and higher consciousness. And, uh, twin flames can be found in a lot of religions. A lot of ti or twin souls can be found in a lot of religions these days. It's largely heard mainly throughout Christianity, the concept of a soulmate, and that God created two souls.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.
Em Schulz: You know, to find each other. And if you search twin souls, twin flame souls, twin souls, if you search it online, you'll find, umm, a lot of articles defending and condemning the concepts. I just wanted to mention that, umm, I thought it was interesting that marriage.com has weighed in on twin flames.
Christine Schiefer: Well, well, well, the foremost experts.
Em Schulz: Laughter] So, uh, to all the married people who are using marriage.com or the single people, I don't know what marriage.com it is for.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, I was gonna say, what is it used for? Because I think it's either right expressly for single people or expressly for married people. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Is like, is it. Is, are you supposed to read this magazine and then be able to get married at the, I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, hold on. Marriage.com. Let's see what happens. Marriage and relationship advice. Oh, so I guess you could be not, you could also be unmarried and just in a relationship, I suppose. Yeah. Oh, what Zodiac sign will I marry quiz?
Em Schulz: Oh God. I think you're gonna marry a Capricorn, but I'm not sure.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. This is the stupidest part.
Em Schulz: Does it say that?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter], sorry, I didn't see the, it hit [laughter] It said start quiz. I was like, this quiz doesn't even work. I didn't see the giant button that says start quiz. Umm, anyway, I'll take this later. This seems like unnecessary.
Em Schulz: We'll do that for after shot keep it open.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. After hours.
Em Schulz: After hours. Yeah. Sorry. Umm, so marriage.com weighed in, they said 20 clear signs that your twin flame is communicating with you. And then it was like, not even, it was like heart palpitations.
Christine Schiefer: Heart palpitations.
Em Schulz: I was like, uh, I guess Allison's trying to talk to me through my chest because I have heart palpitations all the time. Umm, just a stupid beta blocker.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. It's a beta blocker. Maybe it's me. You seem to get really fucking flustered when we're working together. So yeah.
Em Schulz: Only when your shoulders come out. Um. [laughter] Uh, unexplained bodily pressure. Okay. Dizziness. Body temperature changes. And then it says, uh, kind of more movie cinematic versions, like dreaming about a person meeting them again and again in random places. Them coming up in conversation.
Christine Schiefer: Like the first part feels like a WebMD symptom checker. And then the second part feels like, uh, one of those teen quizzes that says.
Em Schulz: It's a list of coincidences.
Christine Schiefer: It's a list of coincidences. Or, uh, are you a stalker.com Or like, does she have a crush on me? Does he, like, does my crush like me back? You know.
Em Schulz: Like A Tiger Beat quiz? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like A Tiger Beat quiz. That's what this is giving, I think.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah, so that, uh, article taught me really nothing, sorry, marriage.com. You did not nail it that time. But what do I know? I'm also not married, so maybe it was not for me.
Christine Schiefer: There's a quiz called Am I bisexual on marriage.com? I'll take that next.
Em Schulz: Uh, I, girl, I don't have to, you are. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Do I have daddy issue quizzes? What's happening? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Marriage.com realized that even they didn't know their own demographic and they're just calling everyone out now.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, literally this one is called, Should You Get a Divorce? Take this quiz and find out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: See, that's what marriage.com should be. That should, their website should be, where are you in your marriage? Are you good? Or like, do we have to like evacuate? And at the back of every magazine, there should be like a bunch of like, classifieds for divorce lawyers.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I bet there are. And also.
Em Schulz: Or counselors.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like if you have to take a quiz, 'cause you're really not that sure, maybe, maybe.
Em Schulz: All signs point yes.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe things aren't... Yeah, maybe things aren't going great, or maybe you just need to see a counselor. I don't know, man.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I don't know. You know what, you know, what, uh, marriage.com really should do is because I'm on like staunch feminist, uh, TikTok, they should have a whole, uh, just like page on their marriage.com thing where they just post videos of women in relationships having to deal with weaponized incompetence and just hope that someone gets the message that way if they need to find it on marriage.com. You know what I mean? Have you been.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think marriage.com's more about, uh, quizzes, 10 question quiz.
Em Schulz: It seems that way, but if they're trying to bring in new.
Christine Schiefer: That answer all your questions.
Em Schulz: If they're trying to bring in a new demographic, you gotta get with the Tok. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: Get with the Tok. I bet they're on there. I wouldn't doubt it. They're probably already on there, Em.
Em Schulz: Maybe they post sassy comments under videos like, Duolingo.
Christine Schiefer: Aha. Now that could very well be, and people are like, who the fuck is marriage.com? It's not even verified. [laughter] So I feel like it doesn't have quite the same weight as like Doritos commenting on something. But, you know, [laughter], I mean, maybe someday [laughter],
Em Schulz: Uh, okay, where were we? Yikes. Umm, oh, that marriage.com even has weighed on twin flames. If you look it up, it's, it seems to be a mainly Christian mindset these days, but you can find soulmates or twin flames pretty much anywhere. Umm, and, uh, twin flame also, this is where it gets a little extra woo woo, is that twin flame goes hand in hand with the spiritual concept of vibrations. Umm, where people in your life can have high vibrations or low vibrations and.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: If they match your vibration, then that's how you know that you're compatible. And those with higher vibrations are more deeply connected with spirituality and higher consciousness. They're also more positive and happy and kind.
Christine Schiefer: Good vibes only spirituality.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Which like.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm saying like, oh can be controversial, but every single one of us, if we use the word vibes, we are talking about vibrations. It has seeped into our kind of, umm vernacular.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes, definitely. Oh yeah, for sure. For sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, but ideally, if you find someone similar to you vibrationally than you're more compatible. And if you end up with someone with even higher vibrations than you, they can help guide you. They're more connected with higher consciousness. Uh, they're more positive and they're kind. And if someone has lower vibrations than you, you might see them as negative and unhappy, or they're trying to bring you down. And there's this metaphysical field of vibrational medicine, uh, where people believe that frequencies can affect our health, and they suggest that it's vital to avoid those who vibrate at lower frequencies to protect ourselves, which in theory seems like a good idea. Like, avoid people with bad vibes. But you wanna say it or me?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, well, you can say, I know we're probably gonna say the same thing, but like, I literally just heard part of it was, oh, if you find someone with high vibration, they can help you get a higher vibration. So if they're avoiding you and you're like, I don't know, it just seems like counterintuitive.
Em Schulz: Well, also, it like, it, it leaves the door open for a lot of room for interpretation. So if you're telling people.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: Avoid people with bad vibes.
Christine Schiefer: I like that. I was like, we're definitely saying the same thing.
Em Schulz: I thought we were too, but No, you made a better point than I was gonna make. But, uh.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, but that makes sense too. I hadn't even thought of it that way.
Em Schulz: It leaves a lot of room for people to insert their own biases. So if someone who goes into one of these, uh, like kind of falls into this community and you happen to be like, really judgmental with people, or if you're racist Or if you are oppressive in, in any way, you're just gonna say, oh, well they have bad vibes, or they're, they're lower vibrationally so I shouldn't have to be around them. And it's like, you're just being a fucking racist, you know? So, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I just feel like there's some, a lot of, especially with such vague terminology and like Yeah. It's almost like a self-diagnosis. Like, I have, I'm vibrating on a higher level than you. [laughter] Like, okay. Yeah. All right.
Em Schulz: It feels like, just like a different way to just talk about how you feel like you're better than somebody else. Yeah. So it, it leaves people the, with the ability to justify anyone they don't like as spiritually bad.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I see.
Em Schulz: And it's moral of the story is that the real goal, if there is one in this, is that you should be striving for like your own individual personal spiritual growth. And if there is a twin flame out there, they can help you on your path while you help them on their path. And it should be this very.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Loving, give and take with others. If there is even like a, a real goal in all of this.
Christine Schiefer: Is the is the theory that like they, there are two people that were created this way by the universe, or like, it's just a coincidence that there's somebody who's like a match to you.
Em Schulz: Umm. My understanding is that it's believed that there is someone meant for you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So it's like, it's been like preordained basically. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: And once you and your twin flame find each other within this world of like, vibrations and finding each other in that way, you can help each other grow and ascend to new spiritual depths and.
Em Schulz: Right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: P-People like allege that they can sense like a literal shift in their own soul because when the vibrations combine with someone exactly vibrationally in tune with them, uh, they ascend a higher frequencies. It, it's kind of like how you would say like, oh, you're...
Christine Schiefer: Or you're just horny.
Em Schulz: Or you're just horny [laughter] It's very similar to like.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, pheromones are a real thing. I don't know why everyone's acting like, oh, it's a vibrational connection. I'm like, it's called evolution and pheromones, whatever. Okay. Anyway, that annoys me. Not you. This concept.
Em Schulz: It's very similar. So like, when you, like, if you find the right partner, they will help bring you up and you will bring them up and everyone will be at a, at a heightened version of themselves because they only have good people on their corner helping them grow. And it's... I see where it could come from or what it could stem from, or what they think they're conflating it with. But it very, you know, quickly shifts so many people.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like a noble pursuit. I under, I like, I appreciate that. And I feel like, and like, I mean, obviously my views are very woo woo, like I'm saying, oh, I think we are like re-uh-incarnating with each other. So I mean, I'm not like poo-pooing it, you know, in that way. I just Yeah, you're right. I feel like it's very, it feels very, umm.
Em Schulz: It's slippery slope.
Christine Schiefer: Limited. Limiting. Like, it feels like you're really boxing in something that doesn't need to be so defined.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And that's how this cult comes in. It's like, oh, it has to be this way, you know, which never ends well.
Em Schulz: Which is so weird. I don't really know what I would be looking for in a cult if I were to join one, because if the rules are too rigid, then it's like really strict and confined. And then you're like, oh, like that makes me wanna doubt everything. But if it's too vague like this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But that's why they don't last. 'cause they start and then they get, you know, whoever's running it starts imp implementing more rules and more structures, but then you're trapped. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: But I don't know what like, uh, like, I don't know. 'cause then 'cause then it could be incredibly vague and it's like you make your own rules, but then it turns into like a real fiasco. Like this too.
Christine Schiefer: Which, I mean that's, I feel like that's how a lot of the hippie stuff started. Right? It was like, oh, I mean like cults that were, you know, during the '60s, '70s, it's like, oh, we're all about free spirit, free will. But then like over time it becomes, but uh, only like, you can't have sex with each other. You can only have sex with the cult leader. And you know, like it starts evolving into this like really fucked up slippery slope, like you said. Umm, so yeah, I feel like in the wrong hands this like, kind of beautiful concept, like just turns bad really fast.
Em Schulz: Well, so people were at this point considering their twin flame, the equivalent to having this big spiritual awakening because they're like, if I can't ascend without my twin flame then, or if I can't be my, my best version of myself without my twin flame, then I need this as a spiritual awakening. I mean, it's, this is the, I feel like earlier when we said something, I did like a very like half sentence PSA about like, your soulmate does not complete you. I know it sounds very like probably to someone who, you know, someone heard that and thought like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you're like thinking too much into it. But it very quickly falls into stories like this or narratives like this of like, if you don't have your twin flame, you are not a whole person.
Christine Schiefer: It's... Exactly.
Em Schulz: You are not valued. You were not.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's like that rigid structure all of a sudden. It's like, you don't really exist outside of now having this twin flame, like it.
Em Schulz: Your whole purpose should be to find this other person. Like, yes. Obviously I think people think, you know, surface level, like I know my soulmate doesn't complete me, but the fact that there are deep rooted values that we have been raised to believe. Some people really have to tear themselves away from that narrative when they get older and realize, oh my God, I was really falling for the thought that I needed another person to be seen as worthwhile.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think we're All, you know, and, and I mean, there's something to be said for like, people who are, you know, who want to have that companionship and stuff. So, you know, I feel like it's just such a, it's just like such a gray area. Like there's something so beautiful and wonderful about having like a, the perfect soulmate partner, but then the word like completes you, starts to take on a can can take on like a, a worse, more toxic meaning. But yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people do believe in soulmates and don't necessarily feel like, oh, I can't exist without them. You know, like, I'm sure there is like a healthy way to look at soulmates. Umm.
Em Schulz: Probably.
Christine Schiefer: I don't, I don't doubt that. I'm sure some people listening believe in soulmates. Umm, but yeah, it is a dangerous like, word like semantics wise, a very dangerous game. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I, I did kind of a throwaway mention earlier, and I don't know if anyone like was annoyed by it, but this is why I mentioned it. 'cause I'm like, some people really, it's a very, very quick shift into really thinking that if you can't find your twin flame, you have not completed yourself. Your, your life's work is not done.
Christine Schiefer: It's so sad.
Em Schulz: You are even as good. You're not as good as you could be. So therefore that might mean that you're bad. So it's just, it's very quickly psychologically damaging.
Christine Schiefer: It's like dangerous. Yeah, yeah. Damaging.
Em Schulz: And some people believe that finding your twin flame can even unlock access to higher powers. This is where it gets extra woo woo. Umm, where like, you're not even your true self with your true abilities until you have your twin flame. So.
Christine Schiefer: You're suddenly like at the egg race and you're like, watch this. And you and your eight legs are like finally reunited. So you've crossed with the crossed the relay win first prize at the company picnic. [laughter] I can see How.
Em Schulz: You just run on all, you just run on all eights towards the sunset and you just have the best.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. You're, you're, you're, I feel like that is, umm, I can see how intoxicating it sounds to, to get that power back. 'cause if I won first place at the company relay race, I would tell you it'd be a happy day for me.
Em Schulz: I know you're making a joke, but the literal next bullet I have is it makes sense that so many people would be drawn into this ideology. It is very in intoxicating.
Christine Schiefer: Well, my, I dream big, so I'm thinking of the company picnic. I don't know what everyone else is intoxicated by, but I wanna win the relay race. I've never won any physical contest or feet of strength in my life.
Em Schulz: Well.
Christine Schiefer: It's about time. I find my soulmate [laughter] marriage.com. I'm gonna go find, find them.
Em Schulz: Not only can you find lifelong love if you find your twin flame, but you also apparently feel a literal shift in yourself. You are improved. You feel changed. And so, uh, this is, you know, an early concept that feels really good. A lot of, there are a lot of eager followers because they're like, I just wanna find love and like, what's, nothing sounds wrong about that. Like, even if it's wrong at least I found love, blah, blah blah. But this is in the words of Saoirse, when there's a new age concept with eager followers, there is someone selling something. And in 2017, since you saw the documentary, maybe you can help me with the name. Is it Shaleia ? Jeff and Shaleia?
Christine Schiefer: Jeff and Shaleia, yes.
Em Schulz: Jeff and Shaleia.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was like, I'm not gonna remember this. Oh, I remember Jeff and Shaleia, nevermind. Yep.
Em Schulz: Uh, Jeff and Shaleia Divine, they did change their last name. So that makes me think Miss Prophet changed her name too.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't doubt it.
Em Schulz: They founded the Twin Flame universe, which this is where I think all the, the heat that's been coming off of you, speaking of flames. The.
Christine Schiefer: Cuckoo. Cuckoo. Yeah. This is where, this is where it is danger.
Em Schulz: Your energy from earlier is because of this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's right. I felt like maybe I was a little too heated about 'cause, because I just kept thinking about this, this, for some reason this documentary like just was so disturbing to me. Umm, and my brother watched it even and texted me and was like, that like was really fucked up. It was just something about it is like so upsetting. Umm, but, so that's why I was getting all worked up. But like, I've used the term twin flame. I think it's a really beautiful concept. So like, separate from the cult. I just don't want people to think I'm just like bashing every concept we're talking about. Umm, I think a twin flame is like, I mean I used to use that phrase too, probably incorrectly. But, umm, I think they ruined the word. I was like mad. I was like, I love the concept of a twin flame. And now they've just ruined that word for me. 'cause they didn't invent it, right? They just like took the idea.
Em Schulz: Yeah, they just Took it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay, cool. What if I was in a cult this whole time, you and I in college were like apparently in a cult, we didn't even know. We're just calling it we're on our twin flame [laughter]
Em Schulz: The only thing I know with certainty is that I was in college until 2014 and I was using the word twin flame. And they didn't even found this group until 2017. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: They definitely.
Christine Schiefer: So nevermind.
Em Schulz: We're not the first.
Christine Schiefer: Phew.
Em Schulz: Maybe when we heard about it, it was just like a very lovely concept. I don't know like.
Christine Schiefer: No, I think it was because I, I still think it's a lovely concept. Like separate from this bullshit. Yeah. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I, I really, I really do. But they ruined it.
Em Schulz: So, they founded the Twin Flame universe, which was a school for ascension to quote, heal separation.
Christine Schiefer: Red flag. Red flag. Red flag.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anytime I hear about a school of Ascension, I'm like, I want to, I want to like you so much, but I have yet to ever find one that was not a scam.
Christine Schiefer: I, I... It's so funny that you like, because at first I was like, yeah, how many times do you hear? And then I was like, we probably actually do see School of Ascension way more than the average person because of what we do.
Em Schulz: [laughter] because of what we do. But also I live in LA I feel like on every corner there's some sort of school of.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you definitely.
Em Schulz: All this.
Christine Schiefer: There's probably one in your building. You should check.
Em Schulz: Probably, I dunno, [laughter] And so, umm, but yeah. School for ascension, because I, I I, I really, I would love to live in a world where every single medium psychic clairvoyant.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Person involved in ascension really actually knew what they were doing and were just good genuine guides.
Christine Schiefer: And had good intention. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I would Would love, I would love to drive past a school of, of ascensions and go, oh my God, I'm obviously gonna take classes there.
Christine Schiefer: That must be good. 'cause it's like intention. The the intention behind is good. But yeah, you're right. It's like you get so jaded over time. 'cause you're like, man, all of these end up bad.
Em Schulz: I don't mean to be Harry Houdini here, but now when I see school for ascension to heal separation, I'm like, ugh. Like, no thanks. Drive faster.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta prove yourself. You know, one of these I've gotta prove themselves and actually ascend or something and maybe we'll believe you.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. [laughter] Show me, Make your spirit come out of your body and then go back at it and then I'll fucking take your class.
Christine Schiefer: Just like Houdini asked, he's like, I just need simple proof. That's all I ask.
Em Schulz: He literally said, I'll pay you $10,000.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: In 1940s money for you to just do a simple thing and in trouble. [laughter] Umm, anyway, uh, so they created this school for ascension and Shaleia claims that she used to, "suffer from separation, but healed herself by achieving harmonious union with Jeff." Ugh. Drive faster or whatever I just said earlier.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you were gonna say dry heave. I was like, indeed [laughter] drive faster and dry heave at the same time.
Em Schulz: Umm, Jeff who at one point was going by a completely different name, which is not a fucking good sign of, of the leader of a group.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, oh no.
Em Schulz: His name was Ender Ianne-Iannethos. Ugh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? I don't, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, thank God we're calling him Jeff. 'cause that's not, I wasn't even tolerate that bullshit.
Christine Schiefer: So he thought like Jeff was gonna be a more whatever. Okay.
Em Schulz: Unless that was his actual name. And I just came off like such an asshole. I've, I am pretty sure that name was fully made up. Let's just be clear.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the Yander one was made up?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I think so. I hope so. Otherwise I just sounded like a real dick, but like, anyway, his name is Jeff.
Christine Schiefer: Like he made up Jeff. Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Wait, did he make him Jeff?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that's what you were saying. What's his, what's his name like as a cult leader?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I think his, I think, Jeff. Jeff Divine is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Jeff Divine. Okay.
Em Schulz: And at one point he was going by Ender Iannethos. Oh. But I.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I see. Oh, I see what you're saying.
Em Schulz: I don't know what it sounds like. It sounds like he made that up, but also like what if that's like a, a name I just never heard of?
Christine Schiefer: His legal name is Jeffrey Iann.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he added the word Ethos.
Em Schulz: Ethos. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To his last name. Come on.
Em Schulz: An ender. Like what's he ending.
Christine Schiefer: And then changed Ender.
Em Schulz: Whatever. Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I said, I almost said Alexander. I don't know [laughter] I told you we were siblings in a past life. It's coming out today.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I truly like, uh, the energy on this episode has to be bothering somebody.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Sorry everyone but.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's me. I'm really sorry. No, I, it's all, I think it's all me. I, I feel off, I feel like this dread is kind of hanging over me and I feel like I'm taking it out on everyone. I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: Well, you said at the beginning of the episode, I think someone's gonna die. And then I gave you this wacky tune. So.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's good. It's, it's, this is, uh, I think I'm just taking it out on the story and I apologize for my, uh, kind of bitterness.
Em Schulz: Uh, it's it's a good day to have a bad story.
Christine Schiefer: Eva says OMG, Oh yeah. Oh, Enders Game. But I thought, 'cause I thought maybe Enders game. Did you read that Em when you were younger?
Em Schulz: No, but it is spelled like that Eva Enders Game.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So it might be Ender's game. I mean, I don't know. That'd be an interesting, it's like a book series. A young adult, I think.
Em Schulz: Well, I would love if he named himself after a YA book and then put Ethos at the end of his last name.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I mean, also, maybe it's not YA, but I know it's like sci-fi. So, umm, it could be, it could be. I dunno.
Em Schulz: Well, Shaleia claims that she used to suffer from separation has now been healed with Jeff. And Jeff, uh, said that he met Shaleia online and credits her for his spiritual awakening. And of course their online courses are not free. They cost over $4,000 sometimes.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: And before founding the school, they ran several websites together, which offered healing services Not yet understood by science. Can you believe it?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yikes. Just yikes.
Em Schulz: Uh, this is where I say you and I know what we're talking about and nobody else [laughter], but before finding this.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I know. I'm, I've been, I be Yeah, I've been talking about it.
Em Schulz: You're already there.
Christine Schiefer: And you know who chatters in my brain all the time. [laughter] She's been talking about it for 45 minutes and she won't shut up. So I'm, I'm there with you. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah I'm sorry everybody else. I, this is, this is, this goes back to like the Frank Mesmra episode. All these people of with like the healing of hands bullshit. It's just, we know somebody in our personal lives makes and it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We have a connection to someone, a loose connection to someone that is kind of like in this world. So.
Em Schulz: Who may or may not listen. So if they are listening.
Christine Schiefer: We don't know. Right. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Please, please God hear this loudly and and stop what you're doing. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Just stop. [laughter], talk about damaging Jesus.
Em Schulz: Drive faster, but also complete halt. Please. Screeching halt.
Christine Schiefer: Drive heave. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Umm. Before founding the school, they ran several websites offering healing services, not yet understood by science. And Jeff claims to have a gift to look inside a person and heal serious and life-threatening ailments, including cancer. And the clients had to adhere to his rules. And if they weren't cured, it wasn't because he couldn't help them, it's because they weren't ready to heal.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Now does that or does that not sound exactly like someone we know. Umm, but.
Christine Schiefer: I mean it sure does.
Em Schulz: Sure does.
Christine Schiefer: I I sure wish it didn't, but it sure does.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, yikes. So then when they find their niche with this Twin Flame University, 'cause they already had these healing services, blah, blah blah, and they're like, we're really gonna knock it, knock it down with our Twin Flame Universe, we're gonna kill it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Look out, lookout world.
Em Schulz: Lookout world. And it actually does take off at first, tens of thousands of people from around the world are joining mainly online. They have like a lot of online forums. They have uh, YouTube, they have Facebook. And this is 2017. This is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, is that why marriage.com is also directed if you type in twin twinflameuniverse.com, it goes straight to marriage.com. They've just rebranded.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: These pop quiz.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine?
Christine Schiefer: And... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, the way you're describing the website, like people, I'm like, oh God, is this marriage.com for real? Because I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't wanna dox marriage.com. But if anyone knows who the CEO is.
Christine Schiefer: They're just like, we're just trying to make a fun, like supportive, you know, support people's relationships and I'm over here just like bashing the shit out of them. But, umm, anyway, I've I've spent more time on that website today than any other for some reason. So.
Em Schulz: Well, okay, so anyone who has been, who has joined the TFU as I'm been calling it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. They did call it TFU. So you're, you're onto it.
Em Schulz: Oh great. It's like I'm meant to be there. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: It's like you should go to Wal Walmart or CVS and buy yourself a t-shirt just like you did with Newport or what, what is it not Newport High School. That's my [laughter], that's my local high school, uh, Burbank High School. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, they joined, uh, or people who joined the community would go on YouTube. They found a lot of, umm, like local Facebook groups to, to join and members would share their experiences regarding their twin flames and the person that was meant for them that was going to be the one that changed them. And, you know, I don't know, made them feel complete if, because apparently they didn't get the.
Christine Schiefer: Ascended them.
Em Schulz: Apparently didn't get the PSA that like, you don't need someone to complete you. So their, now their whole life's work is like, if I want the spiritual awakening, if I wanna be complete, if I wanna be valid, and if I wanna find love, I have to find my twin flame. And this is the only way to do it. So many believe that their twin flames already were in their life. It'd be one thing if you're popping on, you're like, I don't think I've met my twin flame yet. I haven't had the feeling right. Like.
Christine Schiefer: Right. 100%.
Em Schulz: But, but it very quickly, very quickly avalanches downward where people are saying, my twin flame is already in my life. It's my ex. How do I get them back? Or it's, oh, I know who my twin flame is. They're married and they are in...
Em Schulz: They have kids and they live in another state, but I know that they're mine and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Very, very quickly, uh, it's looking rough. All of a sudden, everyone who wants to find their twin flame is basically going into these online forums looking for advice on how to commit crimes and stop the shit out of people.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like it was like so right in front. Like the writing was on the wall immediately. Right? Like people like, Oh well, if you know that your twin flame is that guy who said he wasn't interested and is your boss and has re filed a restraining order, well, then you just gotta go get them otherwise your soul's not gonna ascend. And it's like feeding this like unhinged thoughts, these unhinged thoughts of like, Oh well, they have to be with me, so like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I have to get them. Ooh.
Em Schulz: So since your twin flame is meant for you, because it is a pre-destined, pre-ordained that they are for you and you are for them, people were not only feeling entitled, but were heavily encouraged by this program to, to uh pursue either toxic relationships that wouldn't work for them or they were the toxic one, I mean, obviously, they were the toxic one. But like, [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Mostly, yeah.
Em Schulz: Pursue these like really unhealthy relationships or wreck other really healthy relationships.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they were just encouraged to, you know, whatever length is necessary.
Christine Schiefer: It was almost like at all cost. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever length. Like whatever it takes.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They were encouraged by uh staff and other coaches of this program to just do whatever they had to and this... I mean, so I've already done the whole PSA, and like, you know, this was already psychologically damaging because it's uh preying on people who already feel like they're not valued or they're not worth it.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, sure.
Em Schulz: Or that they're not complete, and this is their, their one ticket, their one shot at like feeling like a complete whole soul. And they will be better for it in the end.
Christine Schiefer: It's so sad.
Em Schulz: But on top of it, it's picking people who are not critically thinking with their feelings, with their relationships.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It seems like they're already vulnerable or feeling unstable or feeling like off-kilter in some way, and then these people come in and like push them. You know what I mean? It feels like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Taking advantage of vulnerable people.
Em Schulz: They're, I mean, these, these are people who have either they already felt this way and were emboldened by the program, or I didn't even think about it this way, and were then encouraged to give it a try.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: These are people that are now thinking I need this to feel complete and also I'm allowed to ignore all of the massive social red flags and I'm allowed to leave...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, and legal. Legal boundaries.
Em Schulz: And leave the social cues, the legal cues, like anything. Like I'm allowed to ignore all of that if it doesn't match.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And honestly, what I'm gonna say later is that um the, the demographic of this group was widely women.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay.
Em Schulz: And honestly, thank God, because if this audience was a lot of men, I'm not saying all men or anything like that, but like statistically, it would have become an incredibly more violent or dangerous situation, if we just took a bunch of men and told them you were entitled to whoever you want. Go get them.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So I think that's... It's already dangerous with the whole group being women, it could even be more dangerous with people who uh, you know, maybe would take it maybe a little more aggressively or have been socialized that already that they're entitled to things like that, so it's just, it's just an interesting point that like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it would have probably been a totally different dynamic, even though, bad both ways, but like probably a different dynamic, if it was a majority men instead of a majority women.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm not trying to say men are worse or anything like that, I'm just saying it's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it would be different socially speaking and yeah, totally, I agree.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um so I just wanna point that out that this is mainly women, but this is, this... No matter who it is, it's people who are...
Christine Schiefer: It's still bad, it's still really bad.
Em Schulz: I just, like with, with whatever respect I can muster. They are a little off hinge currently, or or at least are being told to be off hinge.
Christine Schiefer: Are being encouraged, right. To be like to a shoe. Is that how you say that word? Um, a shoe? I don't know. Uh like social, social boundaries and other people's boundaries and legal boundaries...
Em Schulz: Ignore, ignore anyone saying no, like.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yeah, like no, doesn't mean no. I mean, come on.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: That's the ultimate point.
Em Schulz: That's what I was trying to make about, about my last point is that like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I agree.
Em Schulz: They're telling you no means no is not an accurate statement. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: And also, this is where I'll put the P... This thing is full of PSAs. But just to, let's just throw it out there while we're here. The another reason why I make that point is because a lot of men and a lot of women, and a lot of hetero normative values say that perse-perseverance is romantic and perseverance is sexy.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And just wanna put it out there that if you're someone who is listening to this podcast right now and you are pursuing someone who has told you no, fucking stop, stop.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's not... If... I don't know if this is your sign that you're looking for, but like, no means no, and...
Christine Schiefer: No means no, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's not romantic to like... We all have like that one grandparent who's like, Oh, I asked her on a date 30 times and I wore her down and it's like, that's not romantic. That's fucking stalking somebody.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: So if you needed to hear it from somebody else and you're listening to this podcast right now, please stop reaching out to people who have actively told you they're not interested.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [1:13:29.7] ____.
Em Schulz: And this, and this was a fucking petri dish of people who were not interested in hearing a PSA like that, they were like, no, no, no, I'm gonna do what I want.
Christine Schiefer: They probably heard that PSA and they're like, no, thanks. Not for me.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Not for me. They don't... They just don't understand, yeah. Um but so one of the core tenets that makes this even worse is that one of the core tenets of this Twin Flame Universe that Jeff and Shaleia put out is that...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They believe that we are our own obstacles and no one is blocking our path to love but us. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: Again, this could have started as a noble pursuit of like, Hey, look within before you make any, you know, intense actions...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or any big choices like look within. I see where it could have started. It immediately devolves. One of the vital exercises for these members was called the mirror exercise, where you write down something that is upsetting you, for example, like your friend isn't answering your phone calls, your... And thus your friend is not communicating well with you, you write it down and you remove the person and insert yourself where you wrote the person's name. So instead of it being my friend isn't communicating with me, it becomes you're not communicating with yourself. You need to have better communication with yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So it's very self... Very blamey where like...
Christine Schiefer: And shame, a lot of shame.
Em Schulz: A lot of shame.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like if you don't feel that part of yourself, then you're not ready for the next step to ascend.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So immediately it's making people feel fucking really bad about themselves, even when it's not logical, like you can be bad if someone's not calling you back, and like it have nothing to do with you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um but anyway, so how, it, that's just one of the things that added on top of this, is that people who are already not feeling good about themselves now feel even worse and are saying, well, I can't find love because I'm doing all these things wrong. By the way, also totally not paying attention to the fact of the one thing they are doing wrong as stalking people. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're doing everything wrong because they're being pulled to do it that way.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So this got uh extreme because potentially unhinged people...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Or people on their way to not acting in their right mind are now being told to pursue people that we're toxic. Uh and if it didn't work out, it was their fault.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Or people that were healthy, but they, that they should continue to be more toxic because it's not working yet.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They need to try harder, basically.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so one member posted that she got a restraining order or her twin flame got a restraining order against her, another said that a twin flame had to stop communicating with her all together. Uh I'm sure in the documentary you watched, there was a lot of examples of...
Christine Schiefer: So sad.
Em Schulz: But a lot of people are getting restraining orders. Let's just make that clear.
Christine Schiefer: Let's put it that way, yeah. Yeah, good way to put it. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Uh these members were encouraged to look within and consider how these actually were causing issues, but then it's... They're basically, like we said earlier, they're, they're basically just being told like, oh, well ignore the restraining order because the law doesn't get it, and direct rejections mean nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And you know, this person has meant for you, you have to keep fighting and to pursue them is, is, you'll be thankful one day. So another woman goes to jail for violating her restraining order. One is like straight up stalking, stalking, like violently stalking her twin flame. Like, like changed jobs, moved across the country, uh and one person who was stalking their twin flame was told by the program, sounds like you're being guided to be closer and connected to your twin flame, god supports you on your next big step.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: After like intense stalking somebody. So now they're just being patted on the back for all their hard work.
Christine Schiefer: Now they're like, good job, a restraining order, that means you're trying really hard.
Em Schulz: Exactly. And it gets even worse. So now the stalking thing, that's one whole chunk of this. Here's the other massive controversy, yikes, which I didn't even... I didn't even see this coming, this is like such a plot twist. In Twin Flame ideology, there's this weird emphasis on the divine masculine and the divine feminine, and basically that the universe created man and woman to embody divinity and to complete each other, it's already giving me like gross uh homophobic, like a man is meant to be with a woman, a woman is meant to be with a man, but, so basically, they think uh a woman can only embody her true femininity once she is with someone who embodies their true masculinity.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Starts out homophobic, or at least I'm reading is homophobic because I'm primed for that, but it's really just sexist in general, it's pushing that masculine women just have trauma from low frequency men, and...
Christine Schiefer: So fun fact...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It actually started as completely open. That's like, I think that's where I was trying to go with it earlier too, is like they said, your flame, or your uh, yeah, your twin flame can be um same gender, you know, whatever. And, and so in the beginning, there were a lot of... There were queer couples involved, but then like over time, they said they got like some instruction that, never mind, it has to be one divine feminine, one divine masculine. So like, but at the beginning, there were quite a few um, it was like very accepting at the beginning, and that was like a big draw for people.
Em Schulz: So we're gonna talk about that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Um. So it was basically, it was sexist in general to push that you could not be... Yes, you're right in the beginning, I'm just, I'm trying to figure out how to frame the bullet notes now that we've filled that in...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, sorry, I just...
Em Schulz: No, no, no, you're good.
Christine Schiefer: I know we said it started, but I was like, I think it started really like loosey goosey, love is love. Rainbow flag.
Em Schulz: It did. And even, even though it became... So yes, it became um... It was alluring to people because it was very open and it was very accepting, um and when they came out with these divine femininity, divine masculinity qualities that had to be perfectly paired for you to know that you found your twin flame...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Which by the way, I thought... Nevermind. I'm about to go off on a tangent um... [chuckle] It... When I first read that, it sounded really gross right away because they're basically saying once they meet a, a man who vibrates at a high frequency, then a woman can be her true self at her high frequency.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And it gave me a kind of like high-value man shit that a lot of men talk about on their podcast of like you have to be a high value man to be, to be with a high value woman or something.
Christine Schiefer: Gross.
Em Schulz: Or it found, it felt very like, Oh, we just haven't found the right man yet. That was how I read it. And then you're right, I did my own like kind of back research on it and saw that it was very accepting and that it didn't matter what your gender was spiritually you could be very masculine or very feminine, um it didn't matter what you look like on the outside, uh and that lured people in, but then it got really fucking weird because, um l-let's just... I'm just gonna skip ahead and go straight to this part, the universe basically said, divine masculinity and femininity are not connected to physical sex, anyone can embody either, but because of this, former members who were very masculine or very feminine have now spoken out about being pressured to change gender for their twin flames.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So the Twin Flame Universe program or the school had a big issue because their community, as I mentioned earlier, is heavily made up of cis women who... Many who identified as straight. And so you've got a bunch of cishet women and they're looking for their soul mate in this program, but there is nowhere near as many cishet men in this program, and the numbers or the success rate is not gonna look good.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And so Twin Flame Universe is like, What do we do about this? I don't know if they ever had a, a formal meeting, but what morphed into it was... That was kind of why, to, to your point of, Oh, well, then they ended up making it like, anyone could be masculine, anyone could be feminine. And it had to be like those two strict rules.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think that came out of this, where they were like, Oh, our numbers don't look good, we have to change up our, our plan.
Christine Schiefer: That's so fucked up, dude.
Em Schulz: And so their, their next plan of attack when they're like, we need to make our numbers look better, we need more testimonies that this works, anyone can be masculine or anyone can be feminine, but it has to be a man and a woman. And if a very masculine woman comes in here, she's obviously a man and she just doesn't know it yet.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, [1:22:15.7] ____.
Em Schulz: So that become the narrative where they're now forcing people into questioning their gender.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like, oh, you are a man, you just... Your soul is a man. You just need to like realize that your soul is a man, and then act like it and embody it. Ugg.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so basically they... Yeah, it's, it's rough. They were saying it was apparently, it became very common for the coaches in this program to tell two random members often two cishet women that they were in fact twin flames, which by the way, I thought you were suppose to be able to sense that the second you're next to them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. Okay. I... They show, I only say this 'cause I know you didn't watch the documentary yet, but there's this... There's video footage of like the Zoom calls when they would basically call in and say, Shaleia and I have really good news, we know. We've, we've been told who your twin flame is, and they're like, oh, who? And it's like Veronica and she's like on the call, and it's like, oh my God. And they've been like working together for years, and I was like, wait. So right, like you didn't... So they didn't inherently know... But like you've just gotten some.
Em Schulz: Right. But like the whole point was that vibrationally you just click.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So now their whole ideals are shifting, and does that not sound like any other cult where they pull someone in and say, God told me who you're supposed to marry. It's me with the 57 wives, like, what.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. God.
Em Schulz: And I know you're 12, but it's time that we, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Get married right now and have babies, like.
Christine Schiefer: So fucking dicey.
Em Schulz: So yeah, to pull... Get pulled into a room with... [chuckle] Sorry. That's just so wild to me. So to be pulled into a room with the literal leaders and to say, oh, we found your twin flame, I know you were supposed to sense it, but, no, it's actually been this woman all along.
Christine Schiefer: An the most ridiculous part is that it was like on Zoom, like a lot of the footage. So because they're all in different places. So like when you're pulled into a room, you're literally pulled into like a Zoom conference.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, here's your soulmate. Like, it's so absurd to watch 'cause you're like, meanwhile Em and I are bullshitting on Zoom about like, I don't know what we are drinking that week out of a box and meanwhile, they're on Zoom like. You are actually... Your soul is a man. Like I don't know whose job it is to like watch all the, or like go through all the footage of... Back in Zoom but...
Em Schulz: It's a new concept, because I don't know, I don't know, there is no word for it, but a lot of times I'll be walking down the street, and like, or I'll be like walking past a building and I'm like, who else right now on this street is going through something I'm going through, or who in that building I'm walking past right now is like having the best meal of their life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like something very specific. Now... Only now am I realizing there's a digital version of that of like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Who else on Zoom right now is like getting fucking reamed out by the boss?
Christine Schiefer: Is in a cult.
Em Schulz: Someone right now is in a cult, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like so wild to think about. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to uh to, to, to take over there, but yeah, 'cause a lot of it was recorded via Zoom and it's like... It's so awkward to watch, it's like it's...
Em Schulz: But it also makes you think like, oh, if you were told, if you're a straight woman and all of a sudden Veronica shows up on Zoom and it's like, this is love your life, you should start like falling in love with each other. Imagine like now trying to flirt with Veronica and like it's so uncom... I mean, I can imagine it, 'cause I had to do that with boys in high school, but like I'm... I, I, I guess that's why I empathize that I'm like to know that you're uncomfortable with this, to know that you're confused, to know that this doesn't make sense, but like the world is telling you like this is your only shot, like you gotta do it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like to just be flirting with Veronica and knowing it doesn't feel right, but you've been told by your leader. You spent thousands.
Christine Schiefer: And both of you feel that.
Em Schulz: Of dollars towards that like...
Christine Schiefer: And that's a [1:25:58.2] ____ both of you feel that way. So it's like you're both like, ugh, this is awkward, what do we do.
Em Schulz: That was literally me and all of my boyfriends who also came out as gay later, we were all [1:26:05.0] ____ a couple of times.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly. At least you were right. We both, we both know this is fucked up.
Em Schulz: Um so anyway, yeah, they would say we found your twin flame and how convenient they were also...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Already part of this community. So now the testimony...
Christine Schiefer: They're also spending thousands of dollars a month on this cult.
Em Schulz: So many of the community, like I said, were women and ascension coaches, which is what they were called, they begin telling these cis women that their spirits were actually just masculine. So that's why they were attracted to someone with such a feminine spirit.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And uh they, they, now that they, we knew that they were divine masculine, they could uh be paired with someone who embodied divine feminine, and you're just confused because your body doesn't match what your soul feels like, it's, it's like they're, it's like they were so money hungry, they became pro-trans, all of a sudden. It [1:27:00.5] ____ so weird.
Christine Schiefer: Well, they actually interview a, a tran, like a uh trans um organization leader or something, I don't know what their, what their like title was, but somebody who like works with the trans community very closely. And they were like, this was just a mess because like, talk about the worst possible representation of what being transgender is. Like this is giving it such a bad name.
Em Schulz: And Jeff pressured um... Just like an example, Jeff pressured one of his own employees who was part of the program to adopt a masculine name and he, him pronouns. And this person was like, that is not... Like, I mean, it's a lot of people, it's so weird because I feel like it's almost the inverse and not, not at all in the same way, but it's the closest thing I can compare it to of like the inverse of questioning your gender is like... I feel like as I've been going through my own gender journey, I feel like people have been questioning me non-stop if like are you sure, are you sure, you must be confused, it's a, a phase and now you're part of a group where everyone's like, You're obviously trans, please be fucking trans, please be trans, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: You're way too comfortable with your own identity, you shouldn't be.
Em Schulz: Yeah, or just say like, oh you're cisgender, you must be confused. It's like, what, like that feels an alien world to me that like the exact opposite of behaviors I've received are like all in this one community, just... Out of force, out of money.
Christine Schiefer: Mostly like asking somebody like are you sure you're straight. Are you positive that doesn't sound natural. That doesn't sound right.
Em Schulz: So weird.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that doesn't match society at all.
Em Schulz: It's just so weird to hear this, it feel, uh it doesn't even click with me.
Christine Schiefer: It's such a bad, I mean, it's such a bad look like, come on. Like...
Em Schulz: Well, so, and I do wanna say that there are actually some members in the community who ended up genuinely being trans, and were grateful that like they were in a circle where they were immediately affirmed and praised for the fact that they were... I mean, granted they were being affirmed for going along with it, not because they were actually trans and like that should be celebrated.
Christine Schiefer: Right. For the wrong reasons, but yeah.
Em Schulz: But like, it would be weird, I can't imagine... It's a such a niche experience. I feel like any trans person in that community like has to like have each other's phone numbers and like just to trauma bond because like it's, it's gotta be so weird to come out in a world where, you know, there's a lot of like hate on that. But you happen to have found the one circle who is just like so excited for you because...
Christine Schiefer: I know, it's like, wow, you really nailed it.
Em Schulz: It's working for them corporately. Um, anyway, as I say that others were in an incredibly vulnerable place and in need of support and they've spent, like I said thousands of dollars on classes already, they were desperate to just find love, and they were willing to do anything to make it work, not because... Not only because they felt like they wanted to just find love, but because they've invested in this company that told them...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right.
Em Schulz: This is your whole purpose, um even if it meant not like living as someone that you're not.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So if they refuse to accept this though, then they were ostracized, which again is so wild, because if you came out as not trans, they would say, oh, you're confused, and you clearly don't want this enough and you just don't understand how the world works.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a mind fuck.
Em Schulz: Uh. Even further because of this, the Twin Flame Universe says that prom... Uh they said that promoting spiritual gender over physical gender, uh which by the way is called sex, uh not gender, uh but whatever they're using it loosey-goosey, like the rest of the world.
Christine Schiefer: Physical gender, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Physical anatomy, here's a quick lesson for everybody since we're all about PSAs these days, your physical body and anatomy you are born with this, your sex, your identity is your gender. So in case you were confused about that um and... Anyway, so they say, well, because we were promoting spiritual gender over your physical anatomy, we're obviously naturally linked with the queer community, like barf. What are you talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Come on.
Em Schulz: So that was, that was one of their selling...
Christine Schiefer: And they didn't... Nobody asked for that. Like, come on.
Em Schulz: That, so that was their selling point of like we're inclusive with everybody, it's like by the way, that immediately makes you sound like an organization and not like...
Christine Schiefer: Very good point.
Em Schulz: An actual belief, because if this is a spiritual belief, it's not up to you whether or not you're inclusive, you're just promoting something...
Christine Schiefer: Excellent point.
Em Schulz: That is out of your control or whatever, I guess as a, as a corporation making a bunch of money, I'm so glad you're inclusive. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well. Means a lot.
Em Schulz: You know, they would put like a rainbow logo on their Instagram during June or something.
Christine Schiefer: They probably did actually. [chuckle] I wouldn't doubt it.
Em Schulz: Um trans folks who were a part of this group also, like you mentioned, worry that this is perfect bait for anti-trans laws.
Christine Schiefer: Yup.
Em Schulz: Because so many bigots out there believe that you can just turn people AKA children.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: They never care about the adults turning, only...
Christine Schiefer: They sure don't.
Em Schulz: Children. Don't they? Uh but they think you can just turn people trans, or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And the irony of these folks being forced to convert the other way just adds to all that.
Christine Schiefer: It's crazy. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um but I mean, there are thousands, thousands of thousands of trans people who have had to go through a forced conversion therapy, and this in a different way, was like forced into converting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, but, so it just, it, it feeds the uh stereotypes that you can choose your gender, you can choose uh how you're going to live your life, and uh that you can turn other people just by saying, oh well, obviously you're a man, so you should be a man. And a lot of you know, bigots out there think that trans people are going up to little children with a lollipop and saying, don't you feel like a man, you should turn into a man, like.
Christine Schiefer: Right. They can like point at this and be like see. You know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it's ugh.
Em Schulz: So um, anyway, it just, it's, it feeds into that stuff, so extra not good, and things continue to unravel as Jeff began referring to himself as the second coming of Christ. Former members said that they were uh actually planning to move to a compound together and share property.
Christine Schiefer: Oh god.
Em Schulz: Where they could all birth and raise their children together and a generation of golden children, which the twin flames who could not conceive but wanted to have children with their twin flame, uh or like if you're a, a queer pair of twin flames, I guess, and you lived on this compound and you wanted to have children you could do so by sperm donation, approved by Jeff and Shaleia.
Christine Schiefer: I cannot.
Em Schulz: And any money that they made during their IVF or any uh money that went to them through donations would all go to Jeff and Shaleia, of course. And the couple has gotten backlash, duh, with uh Twin Flame Universe being called a dangerous cult, duh, encouraging and resulting in crime, violence, stalking, suicide. And Jeff and Shaleia obviously deny any issue and they say that they have the answers, people just aren't willing to hear them, the answers aren't always easy. And Jeff told Vanity Fair, of all people, I'm the second coming, I'm what was prophesied. And I say that with humility. I'm so fucking sure of that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: But there's no other way to say it. Jesus got the same response when he was like, Yo, I'm the son of God, I'm the Messiah. My purpose is to enlighten the world, not be gentle with it. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He's so nasty, I can't stand it.
Em Schulz: Family members of people drawn in by Twin Flames are trying to gather evidence for a criminal case or a civil suit against the couple, some members are facing criminal charges of their own for all of the like horrific events they have uh been encouraged to do towards people that they claim to love. And of course, despite their involvement and intense culpability, the Twin Flame Universe school tells the people who are dealing with criminal charges after being encouraged by them, they're telling these people, go sort it out on your own legally, financially, we are not responsible.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's not our problem. You signed a waiver. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And that is the cult of Twin Flames.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." That is, I mean, honestly, I forgot about half the shit, like how bad it got.
Em Schulz: It's a rough one.
Christine Schiefer: It's so... It's so upsetting.
Em Schulz: And there's a documentary on um Netflix too, that obviously Christine has watched and...
Christine Schiefer: It's really good, if you... It's like three episodes, I think. It's really good. Um it's slightly lighter than the traditional true crime documentary, and I say slightly, 'cause obviously there's so, so much hurt and damage that happens, and uh death as well, but like it's less gruesome, yes, than some other true crimes. So if you're kind of like my brother on the verge of like I'm not really into true crime, but like maybe cult stuff, that is definitely a good watch, but yeah, there was also drama between the two of them, Jeff and Shaleia that got like wild. Em, you would really like... I think it, like this documentary.
Em Schulz: I think when I'm cleaning today, I'll, I'll turn it on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would recommend, um. But yeah, they're still active. I just Googled it, they're selling tickets to their, to their conference. So gross. That's so gross.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, it's... Drop out there folks.
Christine Schiefer: The two of them are so fucked. They're so fucked up together too. You guys just, if you need something like a train wreck to watch, and the sad part is a lot of these people have like completely lost touch with their families and their families like can't get a hold of them. Can't find them. Um it's very, I mean, it's a cult, you know, it's just, it's just sad.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm still in a lot of forums from when I did my QAnon episodes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: I still follow people who are losing... They're still losing people, I'm like, wasn't QAnon, like, aren't we done with that? And it's just never done.
Christine Schiefer: I wish.
Em Schulz: And so I feel like that really kind of opened my eyes to the fact that like with any cults, you're always gonna lose someone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know when it ends. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And like how do you come back from that? I mean, people were getting pressured into gender reassignment surgery, and it's like...
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Like that should not be something you get pressured into. It's like unbelievable. Um.
Em Schulz: If anything, people pressure you not to do it. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: I really can't wrap my head around a world where, it's opposite day, apparently for trans people.
Christine Schiefer: It's the opposite day. And like why can't it just be nobody but you get to decide that, but nope. Apparently, everyone has to say one way or another, um.
Em Schulz: Yeah, very creepy, very weird. That's um, and I wish I got to watch the documentary, I way... I, I feel silly watching it after the fact, but there were so many links I ended up following and like I found excerpts on YouTube, so maybe I actually watched something from the documentary and don't realize it.
Christine Schiefer: You may have. And I think the way that I would say we watch it too is even if you do know it, 'cause I mean, you covered, I think you covered pretty much all of it, I mean, like all of it that I know, anyway, but I feel like it's also interesting to see the clips of it, like see the actual conferences and shit like that, and like watch the Zoom meetings. Like it just gives it a whole new dimension. So fucking creepy.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yikes. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: I will still watch it.
Em Schulz: That's my um, that's all folks.
Christine Schiefer: That's all folks, um except it's not.
Em Schulz: Can I pee before we go?
Christine Schiefer: You sure can.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm also gonna go get some water.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so I have a story for you today, Em, this is the story of Holly K. Dunn. And uh it is a humdinger. Well, it's not a humdinger, it's a doozy, I'll put it that way.
Em Schulz: Humdinger. Holly Dunn.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay, all right, I feel like I, I just put it in my Rolodex brain.
Christine Schiefer: File, file of facts. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It was, it was, I had to make a whole new folder 'cause I've never heard of it before, so um great.
Christine Schiefer: Uh gotcha. Make sure that you put a back, a back up on a floppy.
Em Schulz: That was the buffering sound.
Christine Schiefer: A floppy disk. [1:39:02.4] ____ guys. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You know, I just, so I just got new glasses, and um, I, there, I am a creature of habit, they're the exact same glasses, um but I got new micro-cloths, which I'm actually committing to using those instead of my shirt from now on. And I got one that looks like a floppy disk, which I thought was fun.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's cute.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's your... That's the last fun thing I get to say before a horrible murder.
Christine Schiefer: Good story. Good story. [chuckle] So this is the story of Holly Dunn. Um a lot of this information comes from uh a book called "Soul Survivor", and it's, it's uh, it's really good. I haven't finished it, I've read most of it. It's worth the read. Um in August 1997, Holly Dunn was just kicking off her junior year of college at University of Kentucky, UK, Lexington, not far from me. That's where I got my first covid vaccine.
Em Schulz: What's the mascot there?
Christine Schiefer: Uh the Wild Cat.
Em Schulz: What team? Wildcats.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Wild cats. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You did a good job.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Okay, so she's starting her junior year at coll... Of college at University of Kentucky, and she had rented a house the summer between her sophomore and junior year with her friends who also attended the school, and it was her first apartment. It was a crappy apartment, that's how she described it, but you know, she's young, she's with her... Living with her friends. It's a good time. So earlier that summer, she had met Chris Meyer, I'm not sure if it's Mayer or a Meyer folks, 'cause it's spelled a kind of M-A-I-E-R, um and I've heard it both ways on, on separate occasions, uh but he was originally from North Canton, Ohio, and uh they hit it off right away. They met at a Buffalo Wild Wings & Weck location.
Em Schulz: Great, great.
Christine Schiefer: And do you know what about how that was the original name of it?
Em Schulz: The original name of Buffalo Wild Wings.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, uh. I know I call a BDubs, but I don't know what, but what was the, uh, what was it?
Christine Schiefer: Buffalo Wild Wings & Weck was the original, uh, name.
Em Schulz: Oh, there. Oh, I thought that was in my brain. I thought you were talking about like, which location in Kentucky or something. I didn't, it didn't occur to me. I thought it was actually the full name. I had no idea.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. So that's why it's called BW3 sometimes because of the three W... Originally there were three Ws Wild Wings and Weck, and weck is a type of sandwich, I think.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Oh. I never saw it as BW3. I always saw it as Bdubs. That was just always how it was said.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, really? BW3 I feel like was something people used to say too. Umm, that makes sense. And then they got the weck. It's, it's uh, I think a, oh, a kimmelweck type of sandwich. East Coast sandwich.
Em Schulz: You know what's weird is my... Speaking of like kind of knock off Twin Flame situation. [laughter] my best friend in college, she, I worked at Chipotle and we were very connected and she was like, well, "when you work at Chipotle, I'm bored, so I'm just gonna work next door at Buffalo Wild Wings and we'll exchange...
Christine Schiefer: Are you sure she wasn't in the cult? [laughter] And was like, I'm just gonna move my workplace right next door to you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, it was five minutes down the road from school. So, uh, but it worked out 'cause we would exchange lunch and like leave food on each other's car for each other and stuff.
Christine Schiefer: That's so perfect.
Em Schulz: And, uh, it worked out very well. And we would like figure out our own schedules and that would be when we would work so we could... It was truly just a way to kill time when we couldn't be near each other.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's genius because like, you get free food, but you're like, oh God, how much Buffalo Wild Wings can I eat every day? You know? It's like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you get to like, have a different restaurant that you're not like constantly smelling and looking at. Umm, for free also...
Em Schulz: Well she, she ended up working there and she told me the day it happened. She was like, oh, we're getting a new guy working in the kitchen tomorrow. Like, I wonder what he is gonna be like. And then...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Apparently that guy showed up and like stared at her in like a really weird way. And this I, because it worked out. It's not creepy. I know it sounds creepy. I know it sounds creepy. Well.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, we've all stared at people. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, I haven't finished the story, but, um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh okay. I thought that was it. I thought that was creepy.
Em Schulz: But he stared, he stared at her in a really weird way and then like at some point they like, uh, I think they were like in the off, they like ran into each other and like in, in the office in the back or something, and he said something like, I'm gonna marry you. Like, he like, just knew immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And they ended up getting married and they have like two kids now. So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you are right like this because it worked.
Em Schulz: Because it worked, it's okay. Other than that it like, it would've been creepy. But I remember him like being like, I just know I'm gonna marry you. Oh, he's like, apparently the moment he saw her just knew like, that's my wife.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Aw.
Em Schulz: Isn't that wild?
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: Anyway, BDubs.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they are, maybe they are soulmates. BW3.
Em Schulz: They should have had BDubs at their wedding. I'm just saying.
Christine Schiefer: They should have. That was like their... No, they should have had Chipotle since you were the one giving them on their lunch break. [laughter] Umm, so they met at a BW3s and they were celebrating her friend's birthday. And I would like to let you know how they, how, what his pickup line was.
Em Schulz: I'm so excited.
Christine Schiefer: He said to her, said, oh, we have the same feet.
Em Schulz: You know what? That is the one.
Christine Schiefer: Or perhaps, it... Perhaps he said, we have the same toes. It was one or the other. And it turns out she had been wearing these sandals and he was also wearing sandals and both of them had silver painted toenails.
Em Schulz: That's love.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I was like, it's fate, they're twin flames.
Em Schulz: That actually... It's feet. It's feet.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's feet. It's feet fate.
Em Schulz: Feet fate.
Christine Schiefer: I, I thought that was so adorable and random. And like, what are the odds two people go to a bar and both have like, you know, it's just really fun and random. Umm.
Em Schulz: Again, if at their wedding they were not wearing the same feet, I would be mad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wearing the same feet. Yeah. Well, I hope so. But um, anyway, so these two hit it off right away. Uh, he was six foot five inches tall, so he was, uh.
Em Schulz: Big boy.
Christine Schiefer: He was... All the girls in the group were like, who was that guy? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and she was like, that's the guy I'm talking to thank you very much. We have the same toes.
Em Schulz: Back off. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Back off. Uh, so they were, they were, uh, connected pretty immediately. And he was this kind of guy who's... So he is six foot five, but he is like a gentle giant. He's very kind of '90s hippie. He wears like a knotted rope necklace he made himself and carries around a little trinket box with stuff in it, wears sandals, you know...
Em Schulz: I mean his, his toes are are painted silver. I kind of already got that he was a a free spirit. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Free spirit. Yes. Precisely. He loved the outdoors. He was a big fan of Phish with a PH Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, the bands. Yes. I see.
Christine Schiefer: And the band. Yeah. Yeah. So I know...
Em Schulz: They have quite a following.
Christine Schiefer: They sure do. Like, I, there's no casual. I've never met a casual Phish fan.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. And so he just like most Phish fans I've met, uh, decided to go to the Phish Festival in Maine that, that summer. And so, you know, they had just started dating and he went to the, the Phish Festival fan festival and brought her back a, like a ring from one of those like bubblegum machines and was like...
Em Schulz: That's precious.
Christine Schiefer: I was thinking of you while I was there. So this is the kind of relationship they had. Right. Like very cute, very in love. Umm, he was attending the university's theater program and majoring in lighting design. And meanwhile Holly had grown up believing she would become the first female president of the United States.
Em Schulz: Okay girl.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, you know, she's, she's growing up. She's very ambitious, but as she gets older her plans change. Uh, and she was now studying accounting in school school and wanted to help, uh, her dad run his hotel business. So she wanted to get in the family business. So she and Chris are at school together. They're very excited for their futures. The, uh, fall semester starts and, uh, Holly had already moved back into her sorority house for the school year. And as everyone else moved back onto campus, there were like, you know, welcome week parties and all that good stuff, like the week before classes began. And so they started attending these parties to like catch back up with old friends. And classes began Wednesday, August 27th. So Thursday, August 28th. It's second day of classes. And Holly and Chris meet up for an off-campus party after they both finished school for the day, he picked her up from her house. And, uh, because this is just the kind of guy he was, he brought a megaphone, [laughter] and shouted that he was like there to pick her up for their date.
Em Schulz: Love it.
Christine Schiefer: Like he just like that cliche, like classic goofy rom-com like...
Em Schulz: Golden Retriever boyfriend.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Golden. Like just great guy that everyone loves. And, umm, she apparently wore her favorite Birkenstock clogs. So, you know, they're a match made in heaven. And...
Em Schulz: These are a a shoe team. They...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're so right. [1:48:16.4] ____ Birkenstock clogs don't show your toes. Maybe she took the nail polish off and was like, I don't wanna admit it.
Em Schulz: They have fashion from the ankles down. I'm telling you. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well what about that rope necklace? He made it himself.
Em Schulz: And from the neck up.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I don't know what the hell they were wearing in between, but it doesn't matter. 'cause the, the, the rest, the accoutrements are are stellar.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Stellar. So they go to this off-campus party together, umm, with some friends. And Holly was very excited to spend time with Chris, but they felt like the party was kind of lame and they decided to just go for a walk before the sunset. And he, Chris used to live in this neighborhood, so he is like, oh, I know, I know this area. Like, let's go for a walk. And two of their friends, Mike and Ryan, who apparently can't read a room, were like, we'll come too. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know who couldn't read a room? Alexander Schiefer. He couldn't read a room on July 4th, 2017. Uh, remember he had, oh, I guess he read a room and went to Starbucks. Remember when he third wheeled my first date with Allison?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he aggressively read the room. He was texting me the whole time. Like Em keeps telling me not to leave, but like, this is getting so uncomfy. [laughter] And I was like, I don't know what to tell you bud.
Em Schulz: He did...
Christine Schiefer: Well you invited him.
Em Schulz: Read the room.
Christine Schiefer: And he didn't know it was a date. So.
Em Schulz: Here's the situation. He did not read the room until he was there and thinking I should have read the room when I... When everyone was making plans that I think, uh, he felt...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I don't why you invited him on your first date.
Em Schulz: I did not. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You did not.
Em Schulz: It was an obviously Allison did.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Allison did? Okay. Well, well that's on her then.
Em Schulz: That's on her.
Christine Schiefer: That's on her. Let's blame Allison for it.
Em Schulz: The whole time. I was like, Ooh, Xandy's gonna have a rough time.
Christine Schiefer: He literally like walk to like the Starbucks that was the farthest away on Google Maps because he was like, I do not wanna be around here. I'm gonna go get us coffee. Bye. Umm...
Em Schulz: I gotta say every, every J-July 4th, 2017 though, I do think of him. He's... We al-always do a little clink...
Christine Schiefer: He has a special place...
Em Schulz: A little clinky just for him. 'cause he was in real homey.
Christine Schiefer: It's incredibly adorable. It's funny. I wish, I think he wishes he didn't read the room, so he wouldn't have been like, holy shit, get me out of here. But I was like, you guys are at some festival. I'm not coming down there to pick you up. Figure it out.
Em Schulz: I... Well, you weren't there, you weren't in town. And I do feel bad.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And he's asking me, he's like asking for, I was like, you stay put.
Em Schulz: I do feel bad because it was literally like 4th of July and we were only there for fireworks. And then I felt like he didn't feel comfortable to watch the fireworks with us. I felt really bad about it, but it was the, the, the chemistry was popping and I felt very bad in a lot of ways.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He sure picked up on that. Don't worry. He picked up on that. Uh, he was like, hmm, okay. My bad was not supposed to be third wheeling here. Umm, but he went to Starbucks and like talked to me for a while. So, you know, he was fine.
Em Schulz: I'm so... I just, you know, he does have a special pla... I feel like every, uh, every anniversary of me and Allison, I like owe him a gift. I'm like, I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like his ears probably ring. He is like, huh, that's weird I get the sense. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I should, I should just send him a Starbucks gift card every time. Be like, you know what this is for.
Christine Schiefer: I think just the fact that we're all still friends makes it very funny. Like, I feel like if it, if it like, had ended really badly or like, I don't know, it would be different but...
Em Schulz: It would be different.
Christine Schiefer: It's kind of cute. It's kind of cute that he gets to be in your love story. Boy. Okay. So anyway, he did not, uh, these two guys were like, we wanna come on the walk. And they were like, okay, sure. Umm, you can come on our romantic sunset stroll, I guess. Umm, so the four of them decided to take a little walk around the neighborhood. Eventually they reached the train tracks and were like walking along the railroad tracks. And Holly and Chris were so completely absorbed in one another, and the chemistry was popping as Em says. So Mike and Ryan were like, ugh.
Em Schulz: Oh, let's go to Starbucks.
Christine Schiefer: Now we're reading the room. Let's go to Starbucks. Happy 4th. See you later. Uh, they decided to head back and be like, you guys can have your alone time. So they, the two of them hung out. They sat for a while on the grass near the train tracks. They just talked and like, I don't know, loved each other. Uh, just were basking in each other's company. And after a while they were kind of annoyed because no train had approached. They were like, oh, let's watch the trains. And they were there the whole time. Not a single train passed. So it was getting late and the sun had set and they were like, all right, let's go back to the party and just head home. But as they start walking back down the train tracks, suddenly a man steps out from where he had been crouching behind an electrical box near the tracks.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: And the man asked, where did your friends go?
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. That's it. That's it. That's it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my fucking God. So Holly realizes with quick certainty that he must have been watching them for a while, uh, to know that...
Em Schulz: Yeah, a long time.
Christine Schiefer: They were, yeah, a long time to know that they were originally four and now two. So he demanded money. Umm, but Holly and Chris didn't have any, all they had were some beers that Chris had brought to the party in his backpack, [laughter], which I also love that when they went for a walk, he's like, I'm bringing my six pack. Like, they, I'm not leaving this at the party for these losers.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I totally [1:53:31.3] ____. He would do really well these days I've been seeing like, essentially, umm, it's like a sling that holds like a whole six pack of beers. It's like a... And I'm like, he would, it's like a fanny pack that's like...
Christine Schiefer: That's called, called like a big purse.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's a cross body, but it's truly meant just for like six cans stacked on top of each other, tucked away. It's like a really long cross body.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, it like stacks. I thought it was just like the handle kind. You just stick it in. But like...
Em Schulz: No, it's like it literally stretches from like your shoulder to your waist and it's six cans can fit.
Christine Schiefer: Is it just cans? Or you can't... I assume you can't do bottles. That is wild. I've not seen that.
Em Schulz: He would do really well with one of those. And his megaphone and his silver toenails. Oh my god, he...
Christine Schiefer: And like, you know, he wore that thing you wore, which is like, what do you call that? Like, that like kinda, uh, boho hoodie thing? I dunno.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, the, uh, the Bajas, Bajas.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they're called Bajas. Okay. I've must've known that subconsciously. But yeah, that kind of like college, like hippie look. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The striped, the striped like very heavy sweatshirts. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think you're the only person I was ever like I ever knew who actually wore those. Like, I...
Em Schulz: I literally like Mr. Rogers with sweater vest. I had one in every color. I was always in one. There was...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Do you still have any?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I have one from college. I couldn't part with all of them, but I don't, I don't fit in it anymore, but I still have it. I can't really, I would love to have...
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty cute.
Em Schulz: And I'd like to have a, a new one, but I don't know any 30 year olds wearing them. So like, maybe I should just like leave it in the past. But they were actually like, they're very nostalgic.
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait till Gen Z is like, look at this that we've discovered. They've like cut off the whole bottom of it and it's like a tank...
Em Schulz: I'll cry.
Christine Schiefer: Like a crop top. I know. Umm, sorry to dis Gen Z for a minute, but sometimes I have to. [laughter] Umm, yeah. So anyway, he's brought this backpack of beer, right? And he's like, Hey guy, like, we don't have cash on us, like, we're broke college kids, but you can have my beer and my backpack and, you know, whatever else. Umm, apparently he was very insistent that, uh, this guy like, not do anything to Holly. You know, if, if you need to do anything, talk to me, leave Holly out of it. And so, you know, Holly and Chris are standing there. They're trying to get this guy away by offering him beer and their backpack, but they don't really have anything else to offer.
Christine Schiefer: So all of a sudden he, like, this guy's not happy with he, he seems really keyed up, really anxious, potentially on drugs. And they're offering him like, oh, we don't have anything. And he just looks so anxious. And they're like, okay, this guy's like, something's up. And Holly is ready to just like, kind of make this work. But all of a sudden this man tells Chris to get on his knees. And Chris does. And Holly didn't understand, like, she's like, oh my God, you're six foot five. Like, why are you letting this guy like tell you what to do? And this guy also started using the straps of Chris's backpack to bind his arms and legs.
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: And Chris wasn't fighting back. And so Holly at first was really frustrated. Not frustrated, but like freaked out. 'cause she thought, why is, why is he letting this guy do this? What she didn't realize is that Chris had noticed the man was wielding an ice pick and, uh, had that at the ready. And so when he approached and said, get on your knees, Chris was like, okay. You know, uh, he knew he didn't really have much of a choice. So once Chris was tied up, he moved on to Holly and he removed her belt from her pants and used it to bind her arms behind her back. Uh, Chris, like I said, was pleading the whole time, you know, leave Holly alone. You can do whatever you want to me, but leave Holly out of it. He offered the man his car, his ATM cards, anything. And the man told them, he, the man was getting more and more anxious and told them both to just shut up. And he kept screaming, don't look at me, don't look at me. So the guy ran back into the dark to find a duffle bag. And while he was back there, uh, he started tearing up some cloth and he took that cloth or the strips of cloth back and used it as a gag. And while he was tying Holly up, she decided to stick her tongue out, uh, to push the gag farther away from her mouth so that it wouldn't be as tight when...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It was finally tied. So smart. So the man told them that he had a friend with him, and that man carried a gun and he would be back very soon. And of course, there's no way for them to know if that's true or not. They just kind of have to take his word for it. Then he came back again and again to his duffel bag. And every time Holly was trying to get out of her binding, right? But this guy would come back like within a minute or within...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, a very short amount of time. So she's trying, fighting like hell to get outta these binds while the guy disappears for a few minutes or a few seconds and trying to get rid of Chris's gag. And so eventually after a few of these like back and forth trips, she does manage to get some of her binding off. And she's able to get Chris's gag off of his mouth. And as soon as she gets the gag off his mouth, he tells her, get yourself free and run. But she refused to leave his side. And plus she was still, you know, tied up. And she said, no, no, no. Like, I'm not gonna try and escape. I don't think that's a good idea. So the man returned, like I said, every minute or two, and told Holly to stop untying herself. Stop looking at me, was getting more and more agitated. And Chris just continuously begged the man to leave Holly alone. And after a while, the man grew more and more agitated until, uh, he left again this time with Chris laying face down in the grass, still bound. And when he returned, he was moving very, very slowly because he was carrying an enormous rock.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Oh God. Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: So absolutely petrifying. This man is carrying this boulder. It's at least 50 pounds, uh, this huge rock. And he's moving very slowly. And Chris, as he sees this happening as well and is lying face down on the ground, tells Holly, stay calm, everything is going to be okay. The man lifted the rock above Chris's head and dropped it directly onto his skull, killing him in a single blow. So not only did this horrific, brutal crime just happen, Holly just watched it from feet away.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And this is like her new love, you know? So I wanna say a point here too, and I don't know, I don't know, I don't remember if I put this in the notes or not, but, well, no, you know what? I'm gonna say it later 'cause I don't wanna spoil anything. So she started fighting immediately. Uh, she's screaming, she's kicking, she's trying to fight her way free out of her bindings when the man puts this weapon that Chris had seen to her neck and said, look how easily I could kill you and shoves it into her neck.
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So at this moment, she's still alive, she's still conscious, and she realizes fighting this man is not gonna go her way. And so she focuses instead on surviving, or this is so sad, at the very least, leaving behind evidence so people would know...
Em Schulz: Oh my God...
Christine Schiefer: Where she'd she'd been. She said, as soon as this man looked at her after killing Chris, she knew he's going to rape me. And he did. So, oh, I have goosecam. The story is just so horrific. So she knows this man's going to rape her, and instead of fighting, uh, you know, this man has stabbed her in the neck. So instead of fighting, she's decided she's just gonna try and stay calm and survive this ordeal if she can. So the man rapes Holly, just as the first train blows by for the first time in hours, it's almost like so fucked up and poignant, like the train comes right then. And so during the assault, Holly just stares intently at the man, taking in every possible detail. She is thinking, if I survive, we will get you. And she's noting his scars, his tattoos, his his facial hair, everything she can think of. And at one point during the assault, she actually heard a sound coming from Chris, uh, who was laying next to her, and it was a gurgling sound. And she asked the man to please turn Chris over so he wouldn't choke on his own blood.
Christine Schiefer: And surprisingly, the man did go over and he looked at Chris and said, oh, don't worry about him, he's dead. And he was. So what she later found out was that it was actually a death rattle that she was hearing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so she, he had been killed in just that single blow. So as the attack progressed, Holly continuously tried to scratch her own fingernails into the ground so hard that pieces of her fingernails would come off to leave DNA behind. Oh Em doesn't, I forgot you don't like fingernail stuff. Umm, so she was trying everything she could to, like, she was picking her cuticles off to leave, like skin behind and, and trying to leave evidence behind in case she went missing. And then Holly decided to try a new tactic with her attacker. She decided to try and connect with him. So she said, my name's Megan.
Christine Schiefer: What's yours? She said, she just came up with that out of the blue. And he said, my name is James Whitford, spoiler alert, that's not his name.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so she tries to at... She tries to connect with him, and she's asking like, what are you going through? What are you like seeking? Can I help you? Is there something I can do? This is just like a survival tactic.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so after all this, and you know, she says, oh, what's your name? And, uh, he responds, then he tells her, I won't kill you. And she said, and I believed him. So after the rape, he even helped pull her pants back up. She felt like, okay, maybe I've done the right strategy. My tactic is working, maybe I'll survive this. After all, he took an earring out of her ear and one of her rings from her as a trophy. And she actually was not, she had been wearing the, umm, the bubblegum machine ring that...
Em Schulz: Oh my God, Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: I know that the, that her Chris had given her from that Phish concert, but in the struggle she had lost it and she never found it again. So that's, it's a little bit sad. Umm, but, so he took one of her rings, not that one, a different one, and an earring as trophies. And he then covered her and Chris up with a pile of leaves and walked away. And she laid there and she thought, holy shit, I survived. And she even said out loud as he walked away, thank you for letting me live. But before she could get up and run like hell, the man returned. And this time he had a large wooden board in his hand. He approached Holly and began just relentlessly beating her in the face and head until she stopped moving.
Christine Schiefer: Then he left her there beside Chris in the dark, but Holly was not dead. She had lost consciousness and was badly hurt and was breathing very shallowly. So this attacker thought she was dead. But she came to a little while later and all she could tell is the middle of the night, all she could tell was that she was covered in blood and her mouth wasn't closing correctly.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So she knew she needed immediately to find help. And that's what she did. She looked around and she saw a window that had the light of a TV and she walked straight toward it. It was about 200 yards away. And she walked straight up, walked straight through the screen door into this house. And this is the house of several university students. It's off-campus housing. I mean, imagine, you know how nobody ever locked their doors back then.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Basically, this guy describes it, by the way, his name's Chad. [laughter] He's a senior at UK and he, uh, is sitting there doing his homework and watching TV. It's like two in the morning. Ends up being like 2:49 when he calls police 2:30, something like that. And he's just sitting there like watching TV. He's the only one of his housemates who's awake. And all of a sudden the door opens and this woman like out of a horror movie, just drenched in blood and like beaten to a pulp, just walks through the front door. And apparently she says to him, I've been raped and my friend is still out there. So he, he ushers her inside. He says like he's just, you know, very much jumps into action. He tells her lay down on my couch. And she goes, no, I don't wanna stain it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. It's like this girl's near death. And she's like, I don't wanna stain your... Imagine four college boys. Like, that couch is stained already...
Em Schulz: But there's enough... Don't worry, you're fine.
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry about standing the couch. But she is. So she's like, just even in this moment, I was like, I don't wanna ruin your couch. Umm, so he ends up obviously calling 911. And the way he describes it is it looked like she'd been in a boxing match because her face was just so swollen. You know, you can, you could barely see the features. He also couldn't even tell where all the blood was coming from. But he, he was certain he said that she was going to die on his couch. He was like, I just looked at her and thought, there's no way she's gonna make it out alive of...
Christine Schiefer: This, the police or the ambulance is gonna come in time. So he kept talking to her, waiting while they waited for paramedics. Umm, every time she talked she could feel her jaw like swinging loosely. I'm so sorry. I know. It's really brutal.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but she could just tell that it was not properly, you know, attached to her skull. He kept talking to her to keep her awake until help came around 2:48 AM and Holly kept telling Chad that her friend Chris was still outside and she seemed disoriented of course. Umm, and kind of like, not even in the severe pain you would expect, I think just mostly in shock. Uh, so she was of course immediately rushed to the hospital and she was treated for a broken eye socket, a broken jaw, facial lacerations, deep lacerations, lacerations on her head that had to be stapled shut over her hair because they couldn't even like shave her hair off to staple them closed, just, they just had to stop the bleeding.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and her father, so her family came to the hospital. Her father was actually several hours away, but he apparently had a private pilot's license. So he like hopped in his plane and flew straight there. So there was so much blood in her hair, uh, when he arrived that at first her dad actually thought, he later said that he thought she had dyed her hair between the last time he saw her. Like she must have dyed her hair red. Uh, and that there's no way that was all blood, but it was. Next her sister Heather arrived. And of course, despite seeing Holly's horrifying condition, she remembers feeling so, so grateful that her sister was just breathing at all.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so relieved. But then that was kind of quickly replaced with this guilt imagining. Like, I basically, the way she put it was like, I'm over here sleeping in my bed and you are going through this. And I can, I can understand that feeling. Like I'm not saying that she has anything to feel guilty for, obviously, but like I can understand that feeling of like, meanwhile I was just like drinking my Starbucks and like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, if somebody I love is going through this ordeal or what have you. Umm, and so immediately her family is just horrified, guilt stricken that they didn't, couldn't have done anything. And eventually Holly kind of comes to, and she begins speaking to her family and she noticed pretty immediately that nobody was mentioning Chris. And she kind of knew in her gut, you know, 'cause obviously we know he's passed, but she had like, she kept...
Em Schulz: Hoping.
Christine Schiefer: A slight lingering hope. Yeah. That maybe, maybe he had survived. But she finally just outright said, tell me, is Chris dead? And her father said, yes, he is. So Holly needed surgery. So on top of obviously the, just like deep-seated trauma of, of a rape kit of, of all the stuff that goes on after a rape, she also has to get surgery to repair her broken jaw has to be wired shut. And because of these surgeries, she actually had to miss Chris's funeral, which is just really sad to me.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But as soon as she was able to, she wanted to get in touch with de-detectives to help catch this guy. She was like the second, the second she said, when I was in that situation, I told myself, if I survive, I will find you. I will get you.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so the second she is able to, she connects with detectives and she described this guy, to detectives as a man, a male, five foot six to five foot eight in height wearing glasses. Uh, she described, uh, these glasses as sort of these black rimmed glasses. And that his eyes were just pure black behind these frames. Like she couldn't see the pupil. It was just, or the iris is just black. So she said he had wiry muscles, but he wasn't really buff. He had wavy black hair, a Hispanic accent. And so detectives collected DNA from Holly's rape kit, they entered the crime in the national database of violent offenders hoping like something will ping. Uh, but a year went by and there were no matches, no tips, or there were tips, but they didn't lead anywhere. And of course, Holly meanwhile is trying to recover on all fronts. She is struggling with like severe survivor's guilt as far as, you know, she, she kept thinking to herself like, if only I had gotten like his bindings undone in time, you know, like she's just replaying it over, over and over.
Em Schulz: I mean, to, to just be that close and to watch as that, as the guy who knows, he had to know he was gonna die.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And for him to just be saying, it's okay, this is, this is fine. And to just watch something so... There's, I think this is probably fucked up to say I the, like it's one thing... I think when we imagine like the worst thing that we could witness, that we all kind of have like a general top 10 of like things that you could witness of like when it comes to like watching someone get killed. I feel like you expect it would be like a shooting or a stabbing or, but like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: To and you think that's the unimaginable. And just that the way that Chris was killed with like dropping a heavy rock on his head, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: Beyond what you already think the unimaginable is. It's like such a unique way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like you're not even ex... Like that's...
Christine Schiefer: It's something you could never even prepare. Even not that anyone could really prepare, but you know, it's something you wouldn't even know to prepare for mentally.
Em Schulz: It's like on top of...
Christine Schiefer: How the fuck?
Em Schulz: On top of what you think the worst thing could be. It only becomes even worse because like, that's, that's a worst case scenario you did not prepare for. So it just...
Christine Schiefer: Right. You couldn't even imagine.
Em Schulz: It's so primitive too to just drop a rock. It's so like, it's caveman.
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: It's so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It feels very, and I'll mention this now because you brought up the, the, the rock. But, umm, she described it later as to detectives as the man having dropped it, then picking it up and bashing him over and over...
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Doing it over and over. But police said no, it only fell one time and killed him instantly. And she had to come to grips with the fact that she, her mind just started replaying it so many times that she later thought, oh, that that was real. That was how it occurred. But in reality, her brain just started like immediate loop of, of watching this even during the moment. Like she, she genuinely remembered him doing it repeatedly and the police were like, no, there's no way. Like, it only fell down once and struck him once.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so there's just a lot of like stuff she has to figure out and process. Of course, guilt, trauma, all of it. I mean, she leaned on her sister Heather, which was good. Umm, she called her her rock through her recovery. And um, you know, during all this, Holly is just the most badass. She goes back to school 'cause she wants to get her degree. She gets a job.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, school's a joke. I'd be like, that's not happening.
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like nothing matters anymore. Right, I could not imagine pulling yourself you know even up out of bed after this, but she was just so determined and so willing to like... So determined to get past this and still be who she wanted to be, which is just a really awesome person. Um. So she gets his job, if she even got a job at an outdoor bike shop because she wanted... She said she wished she had had more time to to adventure with Chris before he passed, and it's like the most heartbreaking thing. Um. So, so this is what is happening to Holly as she's trying to recover, meanwhile in December 1998, which was 14 months after the attack in Lexington on Holly and Chris, Dr. Claudia Benton was murdered in Houston, Texas. And she was found in her home, she was a pediatric neurologist, originally from Lima, Peru, and they found her in her home, she had suffered stab wounds, blunt force trauma to the head and had also been raped and thankfully, the only silver lining, her twin daughters and husband were out of town visiting family when the killer broke in, so at the very least, you know they, they survived the ordeal. But it's so horrific and so brutal and personal and violent and invasive, and in May, he struck again this time in Weimar, Texas.
Christine Schiefer: He broke into the home of Pastor Norman Sirnic and his wife Karen. He murdered both of them in their bed, and the weapon he used was a sledge hammer from their own garage.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." And like... Do we ever find out the fucking reason or is this just a an act like an Israel Keys you were there, kinda thing?
Christine Schiefer: Just you, I think it's just you were there.
Em Schulz: Wow. Not that it, you know but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just an attempt to like understand the question mark, but... Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like I was a drugs... Can you at least tell me, drugs, what like, what causes a brain to do that? I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: We'll get to that debate later, there's a little bit of debate on that front, um but as police are kind of gathering intel from these crime scenes or non-intel, but uh evidence from these crime scenes, they get DNA and fingerprint analysis that connects the two Texas murders. And so at first, they don't realize the one that had happened in Kentucky was related to the two in Texas, but they do have immediately um connect the two in Texas. And when they put those into the violent of funder database, all of a sudden Holly and Chris's attack pinged and they said, okay, so all three of these murders were committed by the same man, we know that now by fingerprints by DNA. So notably, the houses of both of the Texas attacks were near railroad tracks.
Em Schulz: He's a vagabond.
Christine Schiefer: He sure is. He's uh, he's uh...
Em Schulz: Living on the trains.
Christine Schiefer: Not a good one, not a good one. Yeah, he's at least moving on the trains. So investigators realized that, yes, the offender must be stowing away on freight trains, and this is basically a really, really hard thing for authorities to track because there are millions of miles of train track, and how on earth are you supposed to know like which train someone's hopping?
Em Schulz: Yeah and very, very, very little security on top of... Like at a train station?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, compared to somewhere like an airport or a rental car... Exactly, it's like, there's no record you know. Um. And so that is how they figure he's getting around, which is bad news, because they're like, well shit, now we have no idea where he's gonna end up, and so they're comparing case details and when the police in Texas see that Holly's attack, Chris's murder were related.
Christine Schiefer: They're thinking, oh shit, like this is a dangerous fucking serial killer. We've got a literal serial killer on our hands, and because these attacks were all near train tracks and were all surprised ambushes at night, they, they described him, one detective described him as the boogie man, they were like he felt like the boogie man. Like we didn't know where he'd end up, we didn't know who he was, he was just attacking in the dark, and we couldn't predict where he would be. He once killed, for example, two women in one day, 90 miles apart, and then fled, fled to a different state, the day after, so that's how quickly he was able to attack and move on, so it, it, it feels very...
Christine Schiefer: No rhyme or reason. Right. He was just like out there.
Em Schulz: Like whenever he gets the urge he like hops off a train.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And just goes for it. Yeah, finally, finger print evidence from Claudia's murder was used to identify a suspect, um this was a man who had repeatedly crossed the US-Mexico border, so he was uh in documentation and he had been consistently voluntarily sent back to the Mexico side every time he was caught because he had been crossing illegally. And it was devastating to realize that this guy had been in federal custody multiple times because he kept crossing the border, and so briefly he'd be in federal custody and then sent back to Mexico, and they were like whit, so we've had our hands on the sky in between the murders, but nobody would know that it was him.
Em Schulz: Know it was him. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like there's no way to... No reason to suspect him of a murder in Kentucky. You know. So the suspect became very quickly one of the FBI's Top 10 Most Wanted for obvious reasons, and Holly meanwhile feels like she's trapped in this gigantic waking nightmare because she's the survivor of this guy, and nobody knows who he is, nobody knows like where he is, where he's gonna show up next. The media called him the Railroad Killer uh because of the proximity of the railroad, of course, to his crimes. So now, her bogeyman, so to speak, her attacker is not only like her her nightmare, but also now all over the news and has this like crazy nickname, the Railroad Killer, and she doesn't know, is he gonna come back for me? Does he know I'm alive? You know it's just the fear there. And the guilt there, I can't even imagine. So they do this nationwide manhunt for this guy and authorities stop trains at random, which I was like, I don't feel like that's gonna work. I feel like there's too many trains to just stop at random, but I guess maybe like they had some pattern or some like clues, I don't know. But they apparently randomly stopped trains to search them um and would basically, which I think is actually kind of smart, they would fly a helicopter over as they began to search for the train, to see if anyone fled from the, from the train.
Em Schulz: That's actually, I think that's actually pretty smart. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It is, it is very smart. I feel like that is the way to do it because then you...
Em Schulz: You know Holly's dad would take his private plane and been like I'll follow every fucking train. Like every train. I will do it.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Every, every railroad. Yeah, so pretty smart. And um meanwhile, tips are pouring in, the detectives, told Holly that like basically, people were just seeing... They had obviously a sketch, but people were just seeing a Mexican man and saying, Oh, that looks like this guy, but it's like, No, just because it's a migrant worker, it doesn't mean it's the same guy. You know it's... So a lot of them were just kind of dead ends, and they told Holly that in truth, that the suspect had kind of a common unassuming face, like he, he was, he was the kind of guy that was kind of difficult to pick out in a crowd, so... Thankfully, she had paid such close attention by the way, to all his scars and tattoos and things just to prove that like she knew what he looked like, but most shockingly, he ended up being arrested by immigration officials and deported on June 2, 1999, while the man hunt was underway and authorities just didn't get the memo. Let this guy that they're now releasing again, is the guy that like everyone's on high alert for.
Em Schulz: It's moments like this when I'm like how, how do we... How is this a modern system, I'm like how...
Christine Schiefer: How does anything work ever if this is how things go?
Em Schulz: This is like... Not to sound like my philosophy teacher from my school, but I'm like question everything. Like all, all of a sudden I'm like, I can't... This can't possibly be the best we can do. You know.
Em Schulz: It, it's, it's, it's feels outrageous like a comedy of errors. Like, really? This is the reality we live in. Great. So, of course, now things are utterly hopeless for Holly, that they're not... But that's how she feels. She begins to fear that you know her attacker is gonna see a news flash that she's still alive and come and find her, um but then... A tip came in to the TV show, America's Most Wanted. And the caller said, I believe I am the railroad killer's sister.
Em Schulz: "Gasp." Which by the way, you go girl being like, I'm gonna rat my brother out, I don't fucking care. Good for you.
Christine Schiefer: The caller claimed to be the suspect's sister who lived in Mexico, and she was in touch with a mutual acquaintance of her brother and believed he was tired of running and might be willing to surrender. So she tells this to the police, and at this point, he was wanted under multiple aliases uh for his crimes, both in Mexico in the US, and she believed that like he was kind of having a nervous breakdown because the pressure of of running being a fugitive was too much. So they thought this was like at least a good sign, maybe he'll break, maybe we can get him... He's clearly like exhausted of being on the run, kind of like that guy from last week that I talked about.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So finally, on July 13th, 1999, this man who they now had a name for, his name is Angel, Angel?
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: It's not your fault. I think you do it with a German accent.
Christine Schiefer: I do don't I?
Em Schulz: It feels like... Okay. How's, how's the last name?
Christine Schiefer: Well in Germany, you say Angel. So uh Reséndiz, I listen, the one source, I know everyone called him Angel and all the, all the sources, so I, I mean would probably just say Angel, because in the US that is how he is known. Um but in uh like there was a a British version of the story that I watched and he's like, Angel Res... And I was like, okay. He's trying way too hard. So I feel that I am a little confused and I apologize Angel or Angel uh Reséndiz traveled with his family to the El Paso Bridge border crossing to turn himself in to US authorities on July 13th, 1999. And his sister later received over $80,000 in rewards for facilitating his surrender.
Em Schulz: Hey girl.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I was like, yeah. Yeah, she deserves it. That must have been a really, really rotten time. So Angel was indeed an unassuming man, he was short, skinny, it was difficult for people to imagine that this guy could be so physically vicious and brutal um of the things that he you know was accused of doing. I mean imagine like a six foot five, Chris was six foot five, and he incapacitated him and murdered him. You know. So it was, it was hard to imagine, but of course, the evidence quickly mounted against him and that left little question that he was the one...
Christine Schiefer: Uh. The Railroad Killer. So prosecutors, prosecutors were determined to seek the death penalty for his crimes and with no way to prove his innocence of the acts themselves Angel decided, oh, you know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna plead not guilty by reason of insanity. And the prosecutor...
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: I know, eye roll, and the prosecutors were actually really nervous because they thought you know there was an interview with with the main prosecutor, and she said we were worried that people would look at him and go, yeah, he must be insane. You know how could a person do this in their right mind, which like they can. There are many people who do, unfortunately, we want to believe they're not in their right mind, but unfortunately they know full well what going is wrong. Yeah. So they were a little nervous. Uh. The trial commenced in 2000, and Angel was considered mentally sound, thankfully, and capable of determining that his actions were wrong, so he was found guilty, and Holly traveled to Houston to testify during the sentencing. And she described it as the most difficult day of her life, but she was also very like... What's the word? Vindicated. You know to stand there and, and speak. And the prosecutor asked her... The first question that they asked was, what did you do last week? And she said, I graduated from college. And that was...
Em Schulz: Okay. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: She's just a power move every time.
Christine Schiefer: Every time. And that was sort of her way of saying, you didn't break me. You know, you didn't ruin me, you didn't end me. You didn't even kill me and um good luck, good luck in there. And so she was not looking at Angel the entire time, um...
Em Schulz: Obviously, I wouldn't.
Christine Schiefer: Which of course not certainly not, but of course then when she was finally asked to identify her attacker in the room, she of course had to point him out and uh describe him. And apparently she looked at him and said, it's the man in the white button down right there, and apparently it was such a like a, a rush of either fear, adrenaline or just stress, she nearly fainted and um almost collapsed on the stand. But she managed to complete her testimony, and uh the authorities working on the case said, it can be difficult to express the human aspect of murder victims and trial because they can't be there to speak for themselves, so Holly know, I'm the... This is the...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: The sole survivor of this guy like I'm... Yeah, I'm the one who who who doesn't have to, but like should speak on their behalf and as... She's like one of the strongest people I've ever heard of. She was like, Yup, I'll do it. And so she spoke up, she pointed him out, even though she almost you know physically couldn't handle it, um but like... You know what serial killer get... What, what serial killer prosecutor gets the chance to have like an actual survivor who witnessed an attack and gets to stand there and say that's the man.
Em Schulz: Just as they say, a slam dunk.
Christine Schiefer: A slam dunk, nothing but net, and so this was you know obviously a big boon for the prosecution and um... She was able to advocate for herself and the rest of Angel's victims, he was sentenced to death, which became controversial because you know Mexican authorities were trying to work with the US to have him extradited. And the death penalty was not legal in Mexico, and they didn't want a Mexican national to be executed abroad. You know so this becomes this whole international affair, but the US refused to extradite him and the courts also denied his appeals which detailed diagnose delusions, in which Angel described himself as unable to be executed because he was half divine and therefore immortal. Oh voy.
Em Schulz: Okay Jeff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know, literally, divine get a grip. He was executed in late June 2006 after his first appeal was denied, uh Holly chose not to attend. Later stating, I'd already seen one person die in front of me and I did not need to see another.
Em Schulz: That is fucking fair girl.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: And also just so chilling. In the wake of her attack, uh the trial, the execution, all of this on top of... Stacking on top of itself, Holly was trying to heal. And in 1997, at her outdoorsy shop where she worked, because she was trying to you know have some adventure that she never got to have with Chris, she met a man who worked at the same store named Jacob, and they fell in love. And I don't know if he said, I'm gonna marry you, but apparently you know on the first day in the kitchen or whatever your friends, your friends friend did, um but he apparently was... Okay, I'm gonna get teary eyed, but in my mind, I'm like I feel like this is one of those stories where Chris like sent someone to help her because she said this man helped her heal and like helped walk her through everything, like was sat through all of her trauma was patient, was kind, was gentle, like was strong. You know and she said like, this is just the person that I needed to find. And then she found...
Christine Schiefer: Her twin flame?
Em Schulz: Her twin flame. And the fact that she found him at the store she started working at in Chris's like honor, I don't know, I just... I find it like really poignant and beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: So in that way, I do believe in like soul mates, twin flames, but not in the kind of weird, weird ass way that Jeff fucked it up. You know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he made her safe, feel safe, un-judged as she like slowly worked through all this trauma um and she kept her memories of Chris close to her heart. She displayed photos of him in her home that she shared with Jacob, and he encouraged her to keep photos of Chris and like keep his memory alive, which is just also so beautiful and like understanding, especially for two young people. You know. I just think that...
Em Schulz: Yeah to just be that um...
Christine Schiefer: So great.
Em Schulz: Mature.
Christine Schiefer: Mature. Yeah, it feels very mature, and they did ultimately get married and Holly continued... I know, it's like finally some happiness at the end. Um. Holly continued healing, she began doing talks like giving talks to support other survivors of violence, and she found that talking about what had happened um enabled her to connect to emotions she may have like otherwise avoided and not look at them, but now she was able to talk through them and work through them. Um. She's been on a lot of a docu series, you know like the kind of specials on discovery plus and all that, and uh Chad is actually in a few of them... Well, he describes uh like, Oh, I'm just watching TV and this g-girl shows up, covered in blood. Um. So Chad, the college senior, gets his like little five minutes you know on screen. Um. And so it's kind of cool. You know she's still speaking out. Um she actually founded uh Holly's House, which is a Child and Adult Advocacy Center, which provides a safe reporting location for survivors of crime that's in um Evans, Indiana, I believe. I wanna say Illinois, but I think it's Evans, Indiana, I could be wrong. Anyway, it's called Holly's House, ultimately Angel was linked to 16 murders.
Em Schulz: Whoa. Do we know what number Holly and Chris were?
Christine Schiefer: You know what I should know, but I don't know actually what order it all happened in. Um I do know the way it's framed in a lot of stories, like in a lot of articles or or not articles like like recountings of the story. They kind of frame it as this serial killer was like going through and killing all these people and nobody knew there was a survivor until like they all linked it and they were like, oh my gosh, somebody survived this... The Railroad Killer, it was sort of like, there was... He's this like bigger than, larger than life guy running around killing people and um nobody knew that somebody out there had survived his attack, you know 'cause I hadn't connected it to the railroad killings yet. So I don't know quite what order, but it sounded like he was pretty prolific and pretty like fast because the fact that uh you know he had he killed two different women 90 miles apart in one day, and then fled down.
Em Schulz: Yeah that's that's pretty and it sounds like an insatiable hunger for this...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, it's one of those where you're like, you know, this is never gonna stop.
Em Schulz: Oh no, after 16...
Christine Schiefer: And it's... I have such a hard time because it's like I look at the prison system and it's just like one of the most sad and broken parts of this country, I think, and it just feels so hopeless, but then you know... And I'm like, I, I am not for the death penalty, and in fact, I'm against the death penalty, but then I'm like, well, we have to have some system in place to put people like this away. You know what I mean? It's like, how do we... I don't know, that's a bigger story for another day, and for smarter people than I, but you know it just starts my...
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, there were... There is a...
Christine Schiefer: Gears rolling.
Em Schulz: This is a... I'm very pro people should be going into like rehabilitation places or getting actual help, but then there's also like... There are those weird one-offs where you're like, I don't think that person can be helped, I think there's just like... I don't know what to do after that, but then the prison system is so flawed, it's like, well, I'm not supportive of that either. I don't know what the right answer is.
Christine Schiefer: It's like it's so... It's like the healthcare system, it's like it's so big and unwieldy, I wouldn't even know, I mean especially me, but I think most people wouldn't even know where to begin...
Em Schulz: Begin.
Christine Schiefer: Unraveling the mess of it, it's just... It's um, it's like a design to fail type of system right like there it's just... It's not even broken, it's just designed this way, like it's designed to be fucked up, so it's just, it's just uh tragedy, anyway. Um. So yes, he was linked to 16 murders, the oldest victim was 80 years old, and the youngest was only 16...
Em Schulz: "Gasp."
Christine Schiefer: Terrible, terrible.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm gonna read the names of um the victims we do know that have been linked to him, their names are Michael White, Jesse Howell, Wendy Von Huben, Roberto Castro, Christopher Maier, Meyer, Leafie Mason, Fannie Whitney Byers, Claudia Benton, Norman J. Sirnic, Karen Sirnic, Noemi Dominguez, Josephine Konvicka, George Morber, Sr., and Carolyn Frederick. And there was also a John and Jane Doe. So they were, they're still unidentified. Holly still speaks out about what she survived and and gives talks and you know holds seminars, she is very, very involved in um self-defense and promotes self-defense as something that all people should learn.
Christine Schiefer: And she said you know just the fact that I was able to sit there and I, I was... I knew enough at least to, to note where his tattoos were and his scars and try and talk to him, and get... You know she said that's things, those are things that people, all people should learn um and you know so that you at least have a fighting chance potentially in a situation like this. And she believes it's her duty to live her life to the fullest for Chris um and for all the other victims, and in this kind of advocacy work, uh she finds peace with that survivor's guilt that she's been holding on to so long. So it's kind of how she copes with that guilt, um, and she believes she's you know living a life that honors Chris and the other victims, and in one interview, she said, I want to be the best person I can be because they didn't get that chance. I want to live for them, I want them to be remembered and it makes me cry a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Um but every, I think it's every year, maybe every few years, um Holly and Chris's friends all get together to like celebrate Chris. And uh the Chris's family was actually extremely supportive of Holly, she was really nervous because she felt a guilt of, I survived and your son didn't and so. But they apparently got very, very close with her and were very just kind and supportive as she healed, and Chris's sister, who was like his best friend uh reached out and was also very you know warm and loving with her um despite their grief, and so much so that they actually shared some of Chris's ashes with his friends, and they all got little trinket boxes, like he had um and put the ashes in their little trinkets boxes. And they actually had his original, his original trinket box, um and they uh went to Red River Gorge here in Kentucky, which is a very, very beautiful spot. I've been to a bachelorette party or two down there. Um but it was one of his favorite places to go and camp and hike and just like be outdoors, and so they all went down there and they scattered some of his ashes over the gorge, and um they threw the the little his little trinket box into the gorge as well. And um they continue to meet up and connect and celebrate Chris and uh celebrate his memory, so that is the story of... Thank God the survival of Holly K. Dunn.
Em Schulz: Wow. What a...
Christine Schiefer: What a [2:40:11.4] ____.
Em Schulz: What a bad story. And what a good story, I guess, for Holly in the end, but yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's one of those uh... Yeah, uh and I wanna point out as well... Sorry, her name is Holly Dunn, that's her maiden name. But she's now Holly Dunn Pendleton, so if you're, if you're uh looking her up. And she has just done so much great work and it's so cool to look her up and see like all the stuff that she's work... I mean it's just... Talk about being assigned quite a life here on this Earth you know to go through. It's just terrible. Um.
Em Schulz: Yeah, then that makes me have a whole other bucket of questions like why...
Christine Schiefer: About why or the spirit world. Okay, you have to at least listen to that book. I know, I feel like we've gotten on this topic for a reason today, you gotta listen to "Journey of Souls," it answered so many of those questions for me of like why, why. What's the point? You know, and I feel like um it might be... It was a huge comfort to me...
Em Schulz: Who was the author of that?
Christine Schiefer: Michael Newton believe is his name.
Em Schulz: And what's the other one you always plug? Gavin de Becker.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, and then on the true crime side, I got paranormal recs, I got my woo woo recs, I got my true crime recs.
Em Schulz: "The Gift of Fear, Gift of Fear."
Christine Schiefer: "Gift of Fear" by yeah Gavin de Becker also. Yeah, that's probably also something uh worth reading related to the story as far as like trusting your gut and uh self-defense, that kind of thing. Um.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wow.
Em Schulz: Well good, good. Telling it Christine once again, and um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I mean I wonder if like... I probably won't but maybe one day I'll cover him because there's just so much more to like his actual crimes, you know but I mean, that would be definitely be like...
Em Schulz: Facet of it.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like I listed the the some of the victim or I listed the victims and then like talked about some of the murders, but there are some really fucked up stuff. Like if you watch documentaries on this guy, like this, like the trophies alone that he kept and like would leave weird little clues at the crime scenes just to like fuck with people. He's just a sicko.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Very serial killer, you know just like cliche serial killer shit.
Em Schulz: All the way down to the solid black eyes.
Christine Schiefer: I mean and the, and the glasses, like thick framed glasses. I mean...
Em Schulz: That's why I felt like maybe it was drugs or something, I was like is this man on PCP or something, far as...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah they... It's possible. I feel like the way she described it was like he was so jumpy and agitated, it sounds like he very well could have been. It sounds like maybe this was also at the early part of his crime spree, um and so maybe you know uh maybe he was nervous, maybe he wasn't sure what was... How to, how to kill somebody 'cause he kept lying about like, oh, that my friend is around here somewhere nearby...
Em Schulz: Maybe he really believed it. Maybe he heard a voice in his head saying that you know... I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe, but I don't think he was really like... I think he faked the insanity plea, I don't think he was really... I think he was just lying to keep them there, you know, saying my friends watching too, so don't go anywhere.
Em Schulz: Yeah. All bad, no matter what.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's bad. So anyway, um. What do you wanna do an after hours? What are we doing again? I forget.
Em Schulz: Something on marriage.com.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna take that quiz. Um. But I remember we were gonna try mind melt also.
Em Schulz: Oh right, okay, we can do that. Allright...
Christine Schiefer: We can lay them down.
Em Schulz: Much more happier, entertaining content, um please follow us on Patreon. Uh Where you can...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it is, it is a much, a lighter uh time over there, it's where we decompress from this show.
Em Schulz: If you'd like the banter part of the show and not the story part of the show, uh then head over there and we'll see you for an after hours.
Christine Schiefer: That's right we can't wait to see you there.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
