[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hi.
Em Schulz: Hello. Hi everyone. We feel like we're like in the middle of a stickup because my computer has been holding us hostage.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: A stick up? Isn't it called a holdup?
Em Schulz: I don't know. Does anyone else say stick 'em up?
Christine Schiefer: Stick 'em up.
Em Schulz: No?
Christine Schiefer: I guess.
Em Schulz: Is that not right? Okay, well, whatever. A hold up apparently.
Christine Schiefer: We're in a, we're in a sticky situation. Em's computer was not working. But here we are. You're here.
Em Schulz: I'm here. Uh, we don't know if that's a, if that's a forever thing, but we.
Christine Schiefer: We sure don't we so why don't we seize the moment? Seize the day, you know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Ugh. Yeah. Uh, all right. Why do you drink Christine?
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my Christ alive. Okay. Well, guess what? I'm drinking My Liquid Death Convicted Melon flavor. Umm.
Em Schulz: Wait let me...
Christine Schiefer: Which...
Em Schulz: Let's clink.
Christine Schiefer: Clinky.
Em Schulz: Oh, clink. Clink. Because I'm also drinking.
Christine Schiefer: Watch I don't break your fucking camera.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and why do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Thanks for asking. Umm, I love my new therapist. She's so great.
Em Schulz: Oh. That's nice.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm, I'm just so happy. But we're having, it's a lot of work already. I've only been there twice and I'm like, this is really exhausting. She's like, I mean, I know. So...
Em Schulz: Are you like doing, is she making you do homework?
Christine Schiefer: Sort of, yes. I even left with a book, boy.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I know.
Christine Schiefer: I'd leave. God forbid. I'd leave. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What, what's the homework?
Christine Schiefer: It's to read this book. It's called, uh, oh God, I already forget what it's called. Uh, where did I put it? I already lost her book. Umm.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, hopefully she doesn't listen to this.
Christine Schiefer: Well it, it was a nice run. Umm, it's called Journey of Souls, I think. I don't know. She's, she's a little woo. Which I love. Umm...
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: No, not Journey of Souls. That's a book I've already read multiple times. Uh I forget the name of it. Something about a Soul, Untethered Soul. That's what it's called. Deepak Chopra was, was, was quoted on the cover. I know that. And there's a horse on the cover.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: The Untethered Soul by Alan Singer. Who the hell knows what I'm gonna read? But it's about freeing... Let's see. Freeing yourself from limitations and soaring beyond your boundaries. Okay. So we'll see what happens in that regard.
Em Schulz: Sounds a little nutty, but I like it.
Christine Schiefer: Sure does. It says, uh, embrace the present moment. Okay. I could use a little bit of that instead of dwelling on the past. Umm, anyway, so it's been really good, but also really overwhelming 'cause I feel like, umm, you know how it just kind of like unlocks stuff when you start therapy and you're like, oh shit.
Em Schulz: Hmm. I, I do, I you know what's weird though is, umm, well, I'm just thinking like, oh, if I had a therapist immediately give me homework, I'd be like, we are not clicking.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's like, that's half the problem is that I can't get things done. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But, uh, no, I've been having... I've been having...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just a sucker for any self-help book though. So like, I'm just made for, for self-help book rec recommendations. It's like my, my love language.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Not, not me, but I would love to recommend some to you so you could read them and then tell me how they go.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, nice.
Em Schulz: Umm, so that way we've both technically read it like you could be my audio book.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, that could actually be really helpful. Like a book club where I just read the books and then I can talk it out with you. I love this idea. Can we do that?
Em Schulz: Okay. I would love to do that. You just tell me what I'm missing and I'll I am happy to talk about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like I learn better when I like explain it aloud. So maybe we could both benefit.
Em Schulz: Was that the point of book reports?
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I sucked at those too, obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: A book report, like there was like no worse homework you could have given me than like a big book report at the end of the week or something. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I don't even like remember what a book report is. Like, I'm like, is there a diorama involved? Like, I can't recall.
Em Schulz: I think so. There's like a poster. It's like one of those, you wake your mom up...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: In the middle of the night 'cause you forgot to tell her [0:04:09.9] ____.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, I forgot you need to buy glitter glue. She's like, I'd rather die. Thank you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She's like, there's not even a store open that sells glitter.
Christine Schiefer: What was that meme I sent you recently, that was like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or you sent it to me. That's what it was. And then I sent it to my whole family. It was like me walking in after fighting a rabbit's body out of a, a hawk's mouth covered in blood. My mom on the phone mouthing, I'm on the phone.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like that's, that's our childhood. Like, mom, I need glitter glue. And you're just like, cover, you've like, just cut your own hand open with the scissors. And she's like, I'm very busy right now. Can't you see I'm on the phone.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, uh, I have, this is just a kind of a random half tangent off that, but I, we had the same dinner table growing up since I was a little kid. And I've made my mom who just did a whole house reno renovation. I was like, I need you to save the dining room table. So she has random dining room table stuffed in the basement because it was like, I don't know if it was cheap wood. I don't know what the right word is, but like...
Christine Schiefer: No. No. Ours has the same thing.
Em Schulz: Has the writings.
Christine Schiefer: Where you can still see all the marks from homework.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so I was like, I wanna save that. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it, but one day I would like to like have that...
Christine Schiefer: You know what I'm gonna do with it.
Em Schulz: In my house. What do homework on it?
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna put paper on it and put crayon over it and see what the fuck you were writing in your book report.
Em Schulz: It's mainly math equations. Those are the things I wrote the hardest.
Christine Schiefer: Boring, why do you wanna keep that?
Em Schulz: 'Cause I the most mad. 'Cause I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So you're like pressing your pencil into it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, I'm sure I carved something into that at some point, but.
Christine Schiefer: I definitely did. We had, you know what, I feel like I'm envisioning the exact table 'cause my dining room table at my mom's, she's like never gonna get rid of. 'cause it still has, I mean, from when I was a kid, all the home, like you could see where I sat, you know, like my, all my markings are still there. And then my sister where she had a different chair, so like hers are over there. It's very weird.
Em Schulz: Very sweet.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but decades of that.
Em Schulz: I umm, I've already told Allison, she says it... She agrees begrudgingly, but I, I don't care. It's like a, it's kind of a non-negotiable for me at this point. 'cause I've decided so hard.
Christine Schiefer: To keep that?
Em Schulz: Well, I guess two things, sorry, Allison. The other thing that I really wanna keep, which is equally big and clunky and inconvenient for us, umm I always thought it would be really cool... I saw it... This is so stupid. I saw it in a dream when I was a little kid and I was like, "Oh man, that's fun." Umm but I feel like that means something in a very woo woo way.
Christine Schiefer: Of course it does.
Em Schulz: Uh I always wanted one day, God forbid my mom sells the house, my childhood home, but I wanna save the front door. And then I always wanted whoever ended up with it to also save their childhood home front door and then like put them...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my... You're like, it's equally clunky. I'm like, I would argue it's a part of a house. It's more than clunky. It's like...
Em Schulz: If you're gonna move and you don't need it anymore, I would like it. I feel like it'd be a cool, like, art installation of like both of our childhood front doors to be together. So.
Christine Schiefer: I do, I do feel like my childhood door growing up, if I saw it in person, it would be very emotional. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. So don't even, don't even get sassy with me, it's the dream.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, I'm not gonna go over there and unscrew it off of the, whoever lives there now. I'm just saying I understand the sentimentality behind it. Umm are you just gonna put them on your house or are you gonna like hang them up?
Em Schulz: I don't know yet. I feel like I'd find a way to use them. It would be, I mean, honestly, if we just hung them, that would be kind of cool too 'cause then it's just our, our doors next to each other. I don't know what I would do, but I, I have already made my mom agree to it, so. Now I just gotta get Allison's mom to agree to it. Umm she listens to this so if this is your first time hearing it, umm I would like your door.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure it is.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Hold up.
Christine Schiefer: I would like you to mail the door.
Em Schulz: This is a stick up or whatever it is.
Christine Schiefer: This is a stick up, give me the door.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, I don't know where we, how we tangent off of that but I'm glad you're...
Christine Schiefer: Why do you, why do you drink I guess, I should ask you.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I'm feeling depressed today.
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: Umm I don't know why. I think I just have, I honestly I've been traveling so much maybe it's just like I'm hitting the low after all the highs. Umm 'cause even in like the being nervous for a show or whatever, it's all still a high. Whether it's a good high or a bad high, it just like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, there's a crash afterward. Definately.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think I'm just experiencing a little crash. So umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well this might make you feel better. Umm this is my decor right now behind me. Umm it is a poop pillow...
Em Schulz: Do you wanna explain that to everybody?
Christine Schiefer: Not really. Thanks anyway. Well, so Em showed up, we went to Toronto and Em sent us a picture of a location in Toronto that they were going to called the Poop Cafe with the accent over the E. Okay. Don't even forget about it. Uh so Em literally went to the Poop Cafe. I was not having it. I was like trying to explain this to Blaise last night when he discovered the pillow.
Em Schulz: Do you hear the attitude coming out of Christine? This is how she sounded about the Poop Cafe. It was awful.
Christine Schiefer: It's a relentless attitude and I am doubling down. Umm I am not about...
Em Schulz: You need to do some homework about that maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. I probably should, but like I won't because I stand by it. I think it's a gross idea. And I don't really, I think I was just, I think you just got really defensive about how much you wanted to go to the Poop Cafe. And I was like, well, I don't see why you would do that. And then it turned into this big debate where then I had to double down on umm no, I don't find it enjoyable to go to a place called the Poop Cafe. So Em went...
Em Schulz: Your memory of it is very different than mine, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: Em went by themselves.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Then showed up in the car and I said, that better not be... Em said, I have a gift for you. I said, it better not be from the Poop Cafe. Em said, "It isn't What is your fucking problem?" And then I was like, "Fine. What is it?" And Em hands me this giant pillow shaped like poop that says Poop Cafe.
Em Schulz: I wanted to give you a gift when you were excited for a gift. I wasn't gonna give it to you if you didn't want it. So I needed you to ask.
Christine Schiefer: So you like gaslit me into thinking it was something else. And then you were like, surprise. It's exactly what you hate.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes. Poop.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: 50%.
Christine Schiefer: What's your ver, what's your version of events?
Em Schulz: I don't remember debating with you all that much. I remember just saying, I'm gonna go here and you caused a real ruckus about it. And I went, well...
Christine Schiefer: I said, That's...
Em Schulz: "You don't have to come."
Christine Schiefer: I said that's, I said, That's ludicrous. Is what I said. And I think then you took that and you were like, "Well, you know what, you have an attitude problem." And I said, "I sure do." And...
Em Schulz: I think I said, "I'm gonna go, I'll let you know how it is." And then when I got there, I sent pictures. And I ended up having a great time.
Christine Schiefer: Of the toilets which you sit on, you sit on the toilet to eat.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it is... I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I didn't think it was disgusting. I did, but I...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, alright. At least we agree about that.
Em Schulz: We, we agreed day one on that one. I, I think I just, but if there's a big difference between the two of us, it's that I am very driven by novelty and you don't give a shit about that.
Christine Schiefer: Novelty, I was gonna say, Em's in it for the novelty. That's so true. It's so real. But look what I do have, look what I have lit right behind me, umm is my candle that you got me that same trip. It says summon and umm it smells delightful. And uh Em and I used it. We lit it in the hotel room while we practiced our ESP, which you can watch on Patreon. Shout out to Patreon, 'cause we, Em found the coolest thing ever, which is a Kreskin's ESP testing game from 1964?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I found that on my, on my wanderings. My whimsy wanderings.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. It was amazing. Em just happened to get a hotel room right next to me. Shows up with this board game from 1964. And it's been used, so it has like the pencils... Speaking of like the etchings and pencil marks. And it has the original people who played it, their like, you know, answers and stuff. It's so cool. So we played it anyway, uh you can watch us do it in the green room, umm on, on Patreon. But...
Em Schulz: Spoiler Christina's not psychic. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But apparently I was the second time we tried it. The first time, Em like, was freaky good at it in the hotel, which we didn't film of course. So we don't have proof of that. But it's true. I saw it with my own two eyes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, Em was just like nailing it, like arrow, check mark, orange, green, you know, like nailing it. And then umm I tried and I got, I was so bad that it was impressive I thought, like I was so bad that like statistically I was getting more wrong than I should have been just by chance.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Which is kind of a wild thought. But then we did it in the green room for fun and I was like, here, do it on me. 'Cause I'm so bad at it. And suddenly I was like...
Em Schulz: Weirdly good.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it's a camera, the camera was on.
Em Schulz: You just need to be on. You just need to be on.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. Maybe. Umm.
Em Schulz: You love an audience.
Christine Schiefer: I love an audience anyway, so, uh, I forget why I'm talking about... Oh, 'cause of this beautiful candle. So I do appreciate your gifts and I have this now here as my little...
Em Schulz: I'm surprised you didn't burn it. I really didn't know... I knew I was spending money that you're probably just gonna throw in the trash. And I was okay with it.
Christine Schiefer: You know I won't throw... You know I don't throw things in the trash. That's my thing. Like, that's the problem. That may be why I was so mad.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: This for the rest of my life.
Em Schulz: A dirty old lemon you would keep, I thought a brand new pillow you would throw away. So...
Christine Schiefer: No, like nothing. I will not throw a brand new thing I cannot bring myself to throw away. At the very least I would donate it, but, uh, I just, you know, I can't, you gave it to me. It's mine now forever. It's like you're gifting upon me these things that now, umm... I need to do my homework, I think for therapy.
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I need to do my homework. This is starting to really get like, hmm, wow, I got a lot of problems. Umm, anyway.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I will say the Poop Cafe was as gross as I thought it would be. Well, it was not as gross as I thought it would be. It was actually very precious.
Christine Schiefer: It was not that... Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it was.
Christine Schiefer: It seemed like they lean more into the emoji side of things, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't understand still. But I wasn't there to understand. I was there to experience.
Christine Schiefer: And you had a great waffle. You said.
Em Schulz: They made a really mean waffle. So, I mean, and I got a stuffed animal out of it, or Christine did. The...
Christine Schiefer: Wait a minute. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I did think it was clever. Not fun, but clever that you had to sit on toilets. Those were the, the chairs in the restaurant. Umm, and then there were murals of poop everywhere. I honestly, it was, I know it was a cute little emoji that they painted everywhere, but it was still a little stomach churning. So I was like, what?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And you know what was the worst part of it? Was that the menu had nothing to do with poop. Which like, you should at least have like, fun...
Christine Schiefer: If you're gonna lean into it. Like you came up with the best one.
Em Schulz: I mean, it was in Canada. Why don't you have poo-tine? You kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: Like that's shocking to me that they didn't. If they're...
Em Schulz: And so they had waffles. I was like, what is going on here.
Christine Schiefer: You need to leave a comment card because like that is outta control.
Em Schulz: I'm worried that they would lean into the word too much and then things would aesthetically look like poop. And I don't want to eat that.
Christine Schiefer: That's where I got a little icked. Yeah. I, you know, I mean, now that you're speaking about it so reasonably, we are definitely on a very similar page. But I think, umm.
Em Schulz: Okay, [laughter] I don't think it was...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Nothing, nothing. I, I'm glad we're on the same page now. I...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Listen, earlier I sent Em a photo of something they texted me in, or Snapchatted me in 2018. And I swear to God if I said to Em, you said this to me in 2018 before my interview at Nickelodeon Em would say, I would never have said that, but I have a screenshot of it. So just in this moment I feel like maybe there's a slight validity that is not being, umm, extended to me.
Em Schulz: I feel like, umm...
Christine Schiefer: And by the way...
Em Schulz: I do have a...
Christine Schiefer: That message said, good luck with your dull ass personality today. [laughter] In case anyone's wondering. And apparently I saved it 'cause it was so delightful. And guess what? It worked. I got the job.
Em Schulz: I like to think, umm, I just told Christine through text, I was like, I feel like our entire con, our entire friendship is very context necessary.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like, I feel like the only reason I would've sent that to you, especially that early in our friendship, is because we had just discussed something about dull personalities. There's no way...
Christine Schiefer: It must be, it must be an inside joke.
Em Schulz: That I just said that to you. But I don't know. I, now, nowadays, I dunno you for your to stop being annoying.
Christine Schiefer: It's exactly right. And you do that to a lot of people. So I feel like, umm, you know, it's not question.
Em Schulz: I have a different thing with every other person though. Like yours specifically is I, I try to tax you on being annoying. Umm, and then the annoying thing is you won't pay me. So it works out full circle.
Christine Schiefer: Right uh, yeah. Then I just like double down. See, this is how this happens, these exchanges between us, I think like one slight rib and then like, we both just kind of camp out in like unnecessarily opposing sides, you know, like about the Poop Cafe.
Em Schulz: At least on Venmo that's definitely true. I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, at least on Venmo.
Em Schulz: At The very least I could agree with you on Venmo. 'Cause there are two, umm, unpaid transactions, I'm waiting on from you. And I think I'll be waiting for a long time.
Christine Schiefer: I think what bothers me is that the fee on that one cent is gonna be more than the one cent. And it like irks me and I'm like, I don't wanna like, give banks more money just by sending one cent because I'm annoying.
Em Schulz: I can charge you a dollar. You want that? I can charge you a dollar.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, in that case, take my money.
Em Schulz: Highway robbery.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, wow, wow. This is a stick up if I ever saw one.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Tell me a story Emmathy please.
Em Schulz: I will tell you a folklore of...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Louisiana Swamp werewolf. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Are you interested yet? Have I captured your attention?
Christine Schiefer: You've piqued my interest and it has been piqued.
Em Schulz: Uh, its name is Rougarou.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: Alright. Which I can get into. I feel like you could write a song about Rougarou. You can make a meal about Rougarou. Not like actually with Made Outta Swamp werewolf. But you could eat...
Christine Schiefer: You could make a poogarou and sell it at the poop cafe.
Em Schulz: Rougapoo, poogapoo.
Christine Schiefer: Don't just, don't just change it on me. I said Poogarou.
Em Schulz: I doubled it though.
Christine Schiefer: See, this is what I'm saying. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna go down in flames over the dumbest thing one day. It'll be over a poop pun or something.
Em Schulz: But am I wrong on like, you could make a Rougarou, a Rougarou, like a Roux.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like there's potential there. You could do a lot of things with this word. And I feel like there's a dance, there's a silly dance to it.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, there should be.
Em Schulz: A shirt. You can make a great shirt with the word Rougarou on it anyway. Uh, apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Kanga, is it a kangaroo? Is that why it's called that?
Em Schulz: No, we've got, uh, you will learn.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The name, you will learn how the name got came to be.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, uh, it originally starts in France. Uh. And France, I guess apparently has a long tradition of werewolf legends since at least like the 11th century. Like in print alone, the 11th century.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Remember, remember our uh, our werewolf and vampire tour in New Orleans? They talked about...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: How the French brought over all that lore.
Em Schulz: Right. I think you've already uh picked up on where we, where we end here by saying...
Em Schulz: Gasp. France and you immediately go to New Orleans. And this is the Louisiana...
Christine Schiefer: Well, you said Louisiana, so I just kind of made the connection.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Not a... Not a hard trip, but, but you made, you made the jaunt. Good job.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Em Schulz: You made it there.
Christine Schiefer: It's like when Leona now says, good job, mommy, when I do things, because like we always say, good job. And so I'll like cut up a banana and she'll be like, good job mommy. And like, if it were anyone else, I'd be like, how dare you patronize me. But it's just so cute. 'cause she's two, but she's like, wow, very good mommy. And like, pat's your back, you know? Which is very adorable. But like, I'm like, I mean, yeah, I know how to cut. I know how to open a banana, but thank, but thank you. [chuckle] That's very polite. So, so anyway, Em, thank you for the compliment.
Em Schulz: Interesting take, umm. [laughter] Yeah, well, I think your take is definitely the more common one, but these days, if anyone in my circle says Good job to me, I really just own it. And I just like, I, I ride the high. I'm like, oh, that was a good job.
Christine Schiefer: Good to know.
Em Schulz: I really did do a good job.
Christine Schiefer: I did open that banana. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Usually if it's umm someone outside of my circle or a man in general, I'm like, you are a fucking condescending prick. But.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly what I mean.
Em Schulz: But it I were cutting a banana in front of you and you went, good job, I'd be like, I did do a good job. That's nice. [chuckle] So I'm trying to, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Good to know. I'll, I'll put that, I'll log that one in away.
Em Schulz: I like owning the small moments 'cause we forget that some... It, at one point, Christine, you didn't know how to cut a banana.
Christine Schiefer: One time I complimented... That is right. And one time I complimented you making a sandwich and you thought I was being sarcastic. So I feel like...
Em Schulz: That was before my, this new journey.
Christine Schiefer: I've been burnt by this behavior.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Like I was so impressed and you were like, why are you keep making fun of my sandwich making? And I'm like, I'm not, I'm genuinely like so enthralled by how well you make a sandwich. Like genuinely. And umm...
Em Schulz: That was before I decided to, to, to claim the small things. At the time I had the same mentality as you about cutting a banana where you would've been like, why were you making fun of me? But now we're trying to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, no, I was.
Em Schulz: Turn a new leaf.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, great. So I'll, I'll continue with the words of affirmation. Got it.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Thank you. I tell myself good job a lot too. After I did these notes, I went, good job. And I went, I know. Okay. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, okay, so well done Christine. Yes. You have figured out how we land in Louisiana from here. Umm, so France has had a long tradition of werewolves since the 11th century itself, that that's print alone we have evidence of werewolf lore, umm, in France. Some of the werewolves at the time though, which I think is super cool, is that, umm, it wasn't always like werewolves were bad. There was just stories of werewolves being good people, but that usually the story usually meant that like it was a good person who was cursed to be a werewolf.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, which I guess isn't all that different than today's stories of werewolves. Like, like when you hear the classic, like a man turning into a werewolf and he always looks so battered and scared 'cause all he wants to do is be a good person.
Christine Schiefer: And he doesn't want to, he wants to avoid the full moon. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I feel like things haven't changed too much. Umm, but there's one example of this I wanna mention, which was a poem from the 12th century called Bis, Bis... It's French Bisclavret. Bisclavret? Oh god. [laughter] I keep wanting to call them biscuit which is...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Okay. But umm this is a poem where the, the poet herself even said, this is not my original work. This is a story I heard throughout the years, but it was, uh, in a different language. So I'm just translating it for...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: For the French to enjoy. Umm, but then I guess she still got like poet credit, so, alright. Umm, the reason it is called Bisclavret is it means werewolf, but, uh, I stand corrected it. It's Bisclavret is not the French word. It's the original language that this story came in. It's, it's called Breton. Umm, and it's an old Celtic language.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my. Okay. So we have no idea how to say it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] So you, even if I'm trying my best, it could say Fred, you know, I don't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But it's a, it means werewolf in the original language.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: And, and, okay. So in this poem, the story goes that there was this baron, this, uh, baron that was very well liked by the king, and he disappears for several days a week. Nobody knows where he goes. His wife is freaking out. She thinks he's cheating on her. And she says, please tell me where you're going. He admits that he is a werewolf. Ugh. Can you imagine if Blaise just admitted that now, it's like, God, we've been through so much already, [laughter] like now this. So he admits...
Christine Schiefer: I thought you were cheating on me.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Can we go back to that?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Honestly though, like the vibes that you give Christine, I would not be surprised if you were married to a werewolf. I feel like that's meant for you. So.
Christine Schiefer: It didn't even feel like that far off. I'd be like, oh, okay. That sounds right.
Em Schulz: Of all the things... I mean, if Blaise is saying it, you're just gonna believe it for sure. Because he's already...
Christine Schiefer: I mean that's it, that's the truth. He is straight shooter. You know.
Em Schulz: That's part of his disguise is that he's a skeptic, but really at night, oh, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He knows more than he lets on.
Em Schulz: So he admits that he's been cursed to become a werewolf. And he goes through, goes into the woods, strips naked, wanders around as a wolf, and then he comes back and, and lives his normal life as a baron.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But very importantly, he, she, he lets her know I have to take my clothes off so I can become a werewolf, but I have to make sure I hide my clothes and remember exactly where they are. Because if I lose my clothes, first of all, if you lose your clothes, you're naked and you look very silly to the public.
Christine Schiefer: I thought that's a, I thought that, I was like, that is a big deal. But I guess there's another big deal about it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Because if he loses his clothes, for some reason, that is what holds his humanity. And if he loses his clothes, he'll be trapped as a werewolf forever.
Christine Schiefer: They're in his pants.
Em Schulz: They're in his pants. His humanity. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Is it in his socks? I don't understand.
Em Schulz: It's in his undies. Uh it's in the, the part of the undies that's stitched back up with his name on it. Apparently. Uh yeah, so that also makes me wonder, does he turn back into a human to then grab his clothes or as a wolf does he have to still have some consciousness?
Christine Schiefer: Doe he have to put the socks on?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Underwear on as a wolf.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine a four-legged dog-like creature trying to put socks on? That's just looks like a silly TikTok.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I'm literally looking at Gio right now, and I'm like he's done that plenty of times. Maybe he's trying to reverse the curse, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well apparently he uh... I don't know, that part. I wish I did, 'cause that feels like the best part. Maybe he just has to kind of like do a thing where he like gets a hat and he kinda throws it in the air and it lands on his head, and that's enough to turn him into a human.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: In the clearing and you go he's like this dog is just like playing with a fucking bowler hat.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah I...
Em Schulz: Especially can you imagine, imagine he puts his socks on first, and then he looks like one of those dogs who doesn't like the shoes and he's walking all crazy...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Before he turns back into a human.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's the curse. Like none of the other shit is a big deal, that would be the curse for, for somebody to go through that every week or every month.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And Christine, that confirms the age-old question of like a dog wearing pants, is it on all four legs downward...
Christine Schiefer: I think it's a horse isn't it usually?
Em Schulz: Or is it just... A horse?
Christine Schiefer: How does a horse wear jeans? Is it four legs or two?
Em Schulz: I think it's a very uh transferable question to the situation.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, fair point. Yeah, indeed.
Em Schulz: Because if he has to take his socks off, it's only gonna be on two of those legs, you know.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Wow what a conundrum.
Em Schulz: Anyway we've answered a lot and nothing at the same time today, I think, with this story.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right. That's what we've done for seven years now.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So he's, uh he has to remember where he finds his clothes. I don't know how he goes about putting them back on, but if he ever loses them, he's stuck as a werewolf, that's the, that's the main part of this. His wife is terrified that he's a werewolf, she does not take the news well, she's like I wish you were just cheating on me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And, and so she knows... I wonder if she also was kinda hoping he was cheating on her, because there's a Knight in her life who has a big crush on her.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Well, well.
Em Schulz: Maybe she thought let's open this thing up. You do you, I do me, whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But instead, she's like, shit, he's a werewolf, I can't be with this hot Knight now. So uh what she does instead is she's like, Hey Mr. Knight you come on over to me and says I know your feelings for me, here's the situation though. If you go follow him and steal his clothes, well he's a werewolf.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: He's stuck as a werewolf you and I can get it on.
Christine Schiefer: I think that is uh grounds for an annulment in the Catholic Church.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, you could probably get away with that.
Em Schulz: And I think the Knight agreed because he absolutely does that the first...
Christine Schiefer: Fantastic.
Em Schulz: Option he can, the first opportunity he can. And uh traps the husband as a werewolf in the woods, and he marries the wife, and they live in "bliss" quotes for a year, and then a year later, the king is out hunting with his dogs and they corner a wolf, and it says old friend Bisclavret.
Christine Schiefer: And it has one sock on.
Em Schulz: Fred.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Fred?
Em Schulz: I don't know. Uh and I guess he recognizes as he's cornered by these dogs, he realizes that the king is nearby, 'cause he's like, Oh, those are the kings dogs. I know the king, he's my buddy.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Royal dogs.
Em Schulz: He out-runs the dogs, he finds the king, which by the way, yikes, can you imagine being the king and seeing a massive wolf charging you in the middle of the woods and your dogs are not fast.
Christine Schiefer: You hear your dogs like running towards you, and then a wolf that breaks through. Yeah, that's pretty scary.
Em Schulz: So, uh, and he he can't speak. He's in wolf form. He can't talk.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask, so he's like, I'm your friend.
Em Schulz: Right, but all the king hears is... You know like something scary.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, sure, yeah.
Em Schulz: But I guess he like charges the king fast enough to outrun the dogs, but slow enough to not totally terrify the king, and runs up to him and starts kissing the king's feet, as like, uh, please don't hurt me.
Christine Schiefer: Uh like licking them?
Em Schulz: Yeah, if I, if a wolf leaked me...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Let's be clear. That would not change my opinion of the wolf. In fact, it would scare me more, I'd be like oh he's he's tasting his snack. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like he's tasting me. Exactly. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No thank you.
Em Schulz: He is prepping his appetizer.
Christine Schiefer: He's hungry.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Umm the king however saw this as a good thing, he was like, oh hell yeah, like this is the most noble loyal wolf I ever did meet in the woods. Probably because he didn't eat me, but also because he's like kissing my feet kissing the ground and I'm the king.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So he's like, this little guy is gonna end up being a friend of mine over at the castle, we're taking him back to the castle.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow, okay, so now he's as a pet.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and can you imagine like getting the news that like, King William or King Charles, whoever is the king right now. Uh there's a wolf just chilling, and like the only reason they have a pet wolf is because it licked his feet.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: The weirdest thing. All the Corgis just vanish one day and they're like, couldn't have...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Couldn't have anything to do with the new wolf we brought home, right?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, what did they think is gonna happen, like something good?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, they brought home a friend for the Corgis, maybe.
Christine Schiefer: That's what they thought.
Em Schulz: So one day, you know now that the, now that he lives with the king, the knight who stole his clothes and turned him into the werewolf, he goes to visit the King, 'cause he's a knight.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: He goes to the castle and he says, oh, what a cute little wolf you got.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I don't know his name, so I'm gonna to start calling him Big B.
Christine Schiefer: Big B.
Em Schulz: He sees the knight and attacks the shit out of him.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if how he knows that the knight is the one who took the clothes.
Em Schulz: Yeah, great point.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Maybe he already could sniff something interesting was going on.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe, or maybe he stopped by their house, you know? And was like wait a minute, this motherfucker took my pants.
Em Schulz: He looked through the window as a werewolf and saw that they were dancing in the kitchen together.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. This knight... This knight was wearing his underwear with his name on it. He's like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's where it went. This motherfucker stole my under... Stole my humanity.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter] Umm.
Christine Schiefer: This is outrageous.
Em Schulz: And so somehow he knows. Somehow he knows. And so he attacks the knight and the king and everyone in the castle defends the wolf. And they're like well he's been...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] He has re, we know he knows something. He must know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, they're like, he's only ever licked our feet and been very kind.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So for him to not be so docile to you, something's up...
Christine Schiefer: Like it's a you problem.
Em Schulz: He's got his reasons and we're gonna let that be.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So they don't do anything to punish the wolf. They just let him keep living in the castle.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my lord.
Em Schulz: And one day the king goes to the area of town where the guy, the werewolf, the baron where he used to live, and they run into his wife. And he sees his wife, he attacks her, he tears off her nose.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Friend, a friend of the king in the poem, or the source I saw called it a wise man. I don't know if he was like actually known as the wise man or he just happened to be wise. And that's how he was described. But a friend of the king was like, you know what's so funny, this, this dog, he only has ever been like that to the knight. And that missing Baron's wife.
Christine Schiefer: So wise.
Em Schulz: [laughter] And so people are like, interesting. There must be a connection there. This is a case for the FBI.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: And people get suspicious. They eventually question the wife because they're like, do you know the knife... The knight? What is the relationship here? Why did both of you get attacked by this wolf who's just the sweetest cuddliest thing?
Christine Schiefer: Both of your... Both of your noses are missing. And that's odd also.
Em Schulz: This does also feel a bit like a umm, a story for all of us that like if someone ever, if our very sweet, cuddly own little personal at home dog acted weird, we would hold the highest court interrogation possible to be like, what did you do to him?
Christine Schiefer: No. No, it's true.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I, when I walk the street and like Gio acts funny about somebody, I'm like, I'm ignoring, I'm avoiding that person.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't care if they're like five or like, they're usually five 'cause he's scared of children. But...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know? I, I trust, I trust a dog's instincts or a wolf in this case.
Em Schulz: Uh I think the worst thing you ever did for Gio was have a child because now he's gotta live with his biggest fear. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: But it's almost like he's like, this one's different 'cause she's mine. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like she, he's like, 'cause we thought we were really worried. We were like, is he going to eat her?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm but no, he's like, this one's mine. I mean, he's like half pit bull. So I think he just has this like kind of possessive thing with, with...
Em Schulz: The nanny kind of thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The nannying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I love that you keep bringing things into your home that he could eat and you're wondering the whole time. Will he eat it?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's, it's called, it's a game show I play by with myself and nobody else.
Em Schulz: Juniper was absolutely gonna die the first couple weeks.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Juniper and Moonshine...
Em Schulz: Without a question.
Christine Schiefer: Were for sure number one on the list. Umm. But they are now...
Em Schulz: Gio has to look at Juniper every now and then and be like, you are so fucking lucky they locked you in that other room.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Honestly, you are so fucking lucky. I should have eaten you when I had the chance. Umm I don't doubt it.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So anyway, they, uh, interrogate the wife being like, something's up. Our very friendly dog, werewolf, uh, has an issue with you. Something's going on. Eventually she confesses, we don't know if it's under duress or whatever, but she confesses and says, I, and I took his clothes and all this stuff, and here are his clothes. Take them back, take them back. Umm when he is returned his clothes, the werewolf becomes the Baron again. And...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But just imagine it, like, imagine the specifics of like, here's your jacket and he puts it on and then all of a sudden you see his a a naked ass man with his penis hanging out.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, you'd be like, whoa.
Em Schulz: They're probably like pants first, pants first.
Christine Schiefer: Underwear first. That's true. Underwear, first.
Em Schulz: Pants first. We don't know which legs they go on. We'll ask the horse with the jeans. But...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: See, he turns into a human and his arms just have pants on and he's just like naked everywhere else.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Or just one arm and one leg. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's just like sideways. Yeah. I feel like this is bound to be an un uncomfy situation for everybody.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So umm here's where it gets a little fruity. I don't know what this means.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Apparently. 'Cause the king and him were friends. The king runs over to him and kisses him. Okay girl.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my. Okay.
Em Schulz: And I, I think it probably just meant like a, a straight man on man kiss.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like a oh it's you my old friend.
Em Schulz: It's you. Yeah. I would like to make it gay. So in this version that you've heard on And That's Why We Drink, source Em Schulz, they made out.
Christine Schiefer: They made out.
Em Schulz: For sure.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, yes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And they loved it. And so did I hearing about it later.
Christine Schiefer: That's Em's weird ass fan fiction. Thank God you waited till he wasn't a dog anymore. That would've been real uncomfy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: For me. I'm saying.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You were close there with that one.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But also by the way, since we're pretending that they actually did make out imagine the fucking breath on that guy after being a werewolf for a year. [laughter] Woof. Literally. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: But also think about the king's breath in the like 12th century. Was it really any better?
Christine Schiefer: They're teeth were all rotted. Right. I mean it's fine.
Em Schulz: Did he even have teeth at that point? They must have all fallen out. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And made of wood. You know.
Em Schulz: He gives the baron his land back, he exiles... This is the king. He gives the baron his land back. He exiles the wife and the knight. And legend has it that even her own descendants to this very day are born without noses to remind everybody of their betrayal to her own husband. I don't totally understand, but that's the legend.
Christine Schiefer: Wowza. Okay, so they're easy to spot, I guess.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah. So that's the uh, that's the poem. That's like one of the first written examples of a werewolf in France. But again, remember it was...
Christine Schiefer: That was a great book report by the way speaking of...
Em Schulz: Thank you. That was probably the only book report I've ever cared about. If I knew anything about having a personality when I was a child, I think book reports would've been a lot better for my, for me.
Christine Schiefer: You would've owned the classroom. Like yeah, for sure.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] I would've been like, listen, they made out. But can you imagine how rank their breath was? That's insane.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Your diorama would've been so PG 13 and they would've been like, this is second grade.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We're calling your mother. And she'd be like, I'm on the phone. Sorry, I didn't buy my child glitter glue. It's my fault.
Em Schulz: Uh I do remember something about, there's a very vague memory, I think I've tried to block it out the best I can. There is an, in journalism in high school, there's an ad I did that was very, very risque.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my, an ad?
Em Schulz: An ad. There was uh...
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean, like a classified ad?
Em Schulz: No, it was like, like for journalism. It was not for the newspaper, but we were in journalism class and it was like, practice how to like sell an ad. And so it was for Valentine's...
Christine Schiefer: Or you were like sex sells.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And there was...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: It, it was for Valentine's Day. I remember it being like a project during Valentine's Day or around that.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la.
Em Schulz: And they were like, everyone... They were like everyone pick a different candy and like try to like make an ad. And I remember like doing something raunchy, like doing some sort of, it was just a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: Play on words?
Em Schulz: Like innuendos or something.
Christine Schiefer: Double entendre.
Em Schulz: Something like that. But definitely like things a 14 year old shouldn't have been doing.
Christine Schiefer: Not for school.
Em Schulz: So I'd probably have to trace that back to my own, my own upbringing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord, I would love to find that. We could do that in an after hours.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I am so glad... It's one of those things where I'm... It's like, thank God we didn't have umm social media back then because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I would have probably posted about it and been so proud. And now I just like, the thought is too much. So.
Christine Schiefer: Let's leave it in the past, right? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Live in the moment as my new book says that I haven't read yet.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that's the first like written example of a werewolf in France. Although it was translated from Celtic languages. So maybe that's like one of the first ones. We don't really know. And as centuries passed, uh this story would always come about and it was kind of, like it became a bit of a symbolism or like an archetype of what a werewolf should be in stories. And because the story was like, oh, he was so loyal to the king and he was blah, blah, blah.
Christine Schiefer: Mmmh.
Em Schulz: Werewolves originally, from the beginning, were given this, uh, storyline of like, they're this innocent victim of women yikes.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, he's like a victim, yeah.
Em Schulz: And cursed and, but he's still noble and he means well uh but.
Christine Schiefer: And then he, in the end he wins. He gets his name back and yeah.
Em Schulz: And then he wins. And then he wins. As centuries pass though, with like witchcraft, witchcraft hysteria and like these panics spreading through, werewolves got nastier reputations. Especially in the 16th and 17th centuries, France experienced their own werewolf panic, similar to the witch hysteria, which I talked about uh in, I think it was episode 109. I think I talked about it there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which I'll bring back again in a second.
Christine Schiefer: Was that lycanthropy? I feel like I remember you...
Em Schulz: Lycanthropy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow, good job. That was a, that's a...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know where, where that came from. Apparently you did a really good presentation that day. 'Cause I remember.
Em Schulz: I guess so. Yeah, and as you're saying presentation, I'm realizing every episode is just a book report essentially.
Christine Schiefer: I know, you were like, if I actually had to do a book report, I'm like, you realize we kind of do that every week, right? We've now become...
Em Schulz: Now noticing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so there was a werewolf hysteria back in the 16th, 17th centuries of France. Neighbors were accusing each other of being werewolves, especially when there was some sort of animal attack in town where either a person got hurt or a bunch of cattle would be slaughtered, umm and accusations flew like crazy. And like the witch trials, some people even would try to call out other people for being werewolves. Just to like have the heat taken off of them.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Sure.
Em Schulz: And also like the witch trials, numbers of actual victims were very exaggerated, but hundreds were accused. Many were burned at the stake, as you just said for lycanthropy. And uh I think we did at some point... Go back and listen to episode 109 everybody, because I'm pretty sure lycanthropy comes from, uh like the root of the word has something to do with the moon. I, I should have done my research. Sorry, everybody. Moving on. Uh, one of the stories that came out of this time was this gigantic wolf that allegedly terrorized this town called Gévaudan.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, that's the one, Beast of Gevaudan or whatever, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: The Beast of Gévaudan is episode 109. So I'm thinking I, I clumped those stories together, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's what happened, because I feel like that was the same episode, uh, Etymology of lycanthropy, that's why I'm being so quiet, I'm sorry. It's Greek from the word lulos, or I'm sorry, lukos, which means wolf. Mmh. And anthrope is like a person.
Em Schulz: I thought moon was involved in it somehow. Or umm...
Christine Schiefer: I think that's uh, like lunacy is, is the word that came from the werewolf.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: There's also the... Yeah. The word lunacy had to do, I think, with werewolves as well.
Em Schulz: Wasn't there something, I'm totally, I have no information on this. I will sound just beyond stupid. But wasn't there something also with like one of the Harry Potter books when like the werewolf teacher, his...
Christine Schiefer: Professor Lupin.
Em Schulz: His name is similar.
Christine Schiefer: Remus, Remus Lupin.
Em Schulz: Remus Lupin, did one of them have to do with... I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Lupin means dog.
Em Schulz: Okay, well there you have it. Okay, I'm not gonna go further, because it's just gonna, it's just gonna devolve even worse. Umm. But anyway, episode 109, if you would like a a breakdown of the Beast of Gévaudan. I remember that being a really good one, and it was, umm... Like it was, I remember there being multiple townspeople all like...
Christine Schiefer: Lupus, sorry.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Lupus, sorry, is like lupine. Lupus means wolf or dog.
Em Schulz: Okay, okay. I'm glad memory served 1% that day.
Christine Schiefer: I took a lot of Latin class in middle school and I've tried to block most of it out, but sometimes it shows up.
Em Schulz: Oh, you did? Una espectra es un poela nominé Cornelia?
Christine Schiefer: Poela nominé Cornelia, Agricola.
Em Schulz: You know, one time I tried to buy you that textbook for Christmas.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I would, do you know that I can probably go to either one of our dining room tables, take a crayon and a piece of paper, and sketch out the entire text of that fuckin ass textbook.
Em Schulz: Cornelia is written down somewhere on that table.
Christine Schiefer: I can't stand it. She lives somewhere on both of our tables, there's no way she doesn't.
Em Schulz: But I tried to buy you the textbook, and I thought, because when I had that textbook, when I was 11, which was like what, 2003 or something. That even then it was an old textbook, so I was like, surely this textbook is not the price of a normal fucking expensive-ass textbook. The book I tried to get you, with Cornelia on the front. It was like $150.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, you know that nothing gets thrown away at my mom's house, right? Or my house. So I definitely still have it. So I will be se selling it probably for $150 if that's the going rate. Happily.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, or you could just send it to me and we can call your Venmo balance a zero out of zero.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Is it? Do you think you've sent me so many cents that it would add up to 150 bucks?
Em Schulz: Hey girl, I'm fucking about to, so you know what.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Okay. Fair point. Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: And I'll, and I'll write it in Latin. How about that? I'll fucking, my comment will be in Latin.
Christine Schiefer: You try, you lycanthrope. You try your darndest. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Cornelia says this is a stick up. Hold them. Hold them up.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Hold 'em up, Cornelia.
Em Schulz: Uh, okay. Anyway, where on earth were we? So, I don't know. Oh, Beast of Gevaudan, that was a great episode. I remember there being like, people like competing with each other to like, like be the one to save everybody by killing the Beast of Gevaudan.
Christine Schiefer: Capture him.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So, uh, during this time, because I guess they thought that this, this must be like a real beast compared to the other werewolves we've been freaking out about.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: There were like, the victims were mutilated a lot worse than any other wolf attack. Umm, at the time there was like a hundred wolves that were killed in pursuit of trying to like, get the beast, get the one, umm. And the king actually...
Christine Schiefer: And did they determine, like they just looked at the wolf and were like, nope. Just another wolf. Like how did they decide they were gonna find out? Like it would transform back?
Em Schulz: Well, this is me trying to like remember something from 200 conversations ago, but I think that, uh, because the attacks were so violent and a lot of the victims weren't even eaten after the fact, which is what a normal wolf would do.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.
Em Schulz: They were looking for like an abnormal wolf.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So when they found, when they killed a normal wolf, they were like, oh, this one doesn't look like...
Em Schulz: He's too normal.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: He's too normal. Uh-huh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, even the king like appointed hunters to track down the beast, which again, can you imagine like King Charles being like, we need werewolf hunters right now. We need them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I can actually.
Em Schulz: Anyway, there was a huge werewolf hysteria at some point, so it really became rooted in their history that way. And then when France began colonizing what would later be Canada, they brought over several stories of another French werewolf named the Loup-Garou Loup-Garou with a L.
Christine Schiefer: Loup-Garou.
Em Schulz: And as the story was brought over, it, Loup-Garou has slowly over time become more and more Catholic or like the morals to the story have become more Catholic. It's become a bit of an allegory. Is that the right word? Is that the way to say it? An allegory, like religiously symbolic?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Like a, like a teaching moment. [laughter],
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yes. A, a cautionary tale, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm...
Em Schulz: And basically a Loup-Garou is a werewolf that you could be cursed into similar to even that poem from forever ago. But as time went on and this story became more religious, the story turned into you will be cursed into a Loup-Garou if you fail to act like a Christian or go to like Easter...
Christine Schiefer: Tithes of 10% to the church or whatever.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Makes sense.
Em Schulz: Uh, you could become a Loup-Garou if you did not go to Christmas Eve midnight mass. You could be a Loup-Garou if you mocked priests. If you didn't tithe. If you, now you're gonna have to explain this one to me. Failed to put your finger in the baptismal font.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. This.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: This. You know, when we walk into a church, not we, we don't do that. But when one walks into a church and then there's a, uh, the holy water and you do a sign of the cross.
Em Schulz: You do a little piggy dipping.
Christine Schiefer: You put your finger in and do a sign of cross. You never seen that.
Em Schulz: Okay. I've seen it. I do appreciate you doing it 12 times though. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I it felt like I had to keep going. I have, as you know, obsessive compulsive disorder and, uh, yeah religion sure plays part. That's one thing we already talked about in therapy. So you know what, I'm, I'm ready. I'm ready for it all. Well.
Em Schulz: See, my first thought was, and this by the way, might just turn into a bit of a tangent. Sorry about that. But I heard baptismal... Baptismal font, and I thought there's a font, like is it like written on the church? [laughter]? In which case.
Christine Schiefer: It's papyrus for sure.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say no, that's, that's Satan's church is papyrus.
Christine Schiefer: No, that's comic sans and Curlz MT. I don't know. I can't help you here friend. I, they're in my mind, they're in binders and they're all very, it's the only organized part of my brain are fonts.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, as someone who is the, uh, the in-house font expert, what do you think, first of all, what do you think the closest font is when you look at a church and you see like church font? What do you think it actually is font wise?
Christine Schiefer: Umm.
Em Schulz: And then if you could change it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: What would it be?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Okay. I mean, I think it would be really fun to play around with like, umm, with like a little, uh, a little Curlz MT just to fuck with everybody. But you know...
Em Schulz: Like just the Amen at the end, you know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just like, like a little silly, you know, umm, just a little silly. But I would say like maybe, uh, oh.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I, I act sorry. Scared that... Thank God you can't hear my computer. I accidentally clicked something called Best Church Fonts 2021 and a YouTube video started playing [laughter] and he just screamed. In this video I'm gonna be showing you and it scared me out of my absolute...
Em Schulz: YouTube has a video about every goddamn thing.
Christine Schiefer: It's outrageous and it autoplays so loud. Umm, anyway, I would say like, what about like an, like an Impact? I don't, or like a... Umm. I don't know. I mean, a Times New Roman seems like too on the nose but...
Em Schulz: What about like a Copper, what's it called, Copperplate?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, copperhead, Copperplate. A copperhead. Copperplate. That's a good one. Or engraving.
Em Schulz: I think so.
Christine Schiefer: Or whatever it's called. Yeah. I feel like Copperplate is a really good one Em.
Em Schulz: Just to fuck with everyone, a Wingdings wouldn't hurt anyone.
Christine Schiefer: Now that would be some Dan Brown shit right there. [laughter] Some, some fucking, uh, that's my book report. I'm gonna write a book report on, uh, what's that book that he wrote? [laughter]
Em Schulz: The Da Vinci Code.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Thank you. Uh, that's some Da Vinci Code shit. Everything's in Wingdings. I'm loving it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I, I think so. I mean, that might be like, I guess hieroglyphics, uh, we could, that if we're doing a very neighboring conversation, we could be like, what would this font be like?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like symbol, symbols. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I guess symbols are actually something that people are desperately trying to umm decode.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: But for the, for the Christian Church, just for fun, let's throw a Wingdings onto like one of the walls and see what happens. You know.
Christine Schiefer: I think it would be hilarious, personally speaking.
Em Schulz: Great. Well, apparently if you don't do a little piggy dipping in the piggy pond, you could become a Loup-Garou or mock the priest, don't tithe, all this stuff.
Christine Schiefer: That's too, too bad. Oh no.
Em Schulz: So over time, the Loup-Garou became, as I said, a cautionary tale about abandoning the church and thus the lifestyle of the Europeans who were moving in. And that very quickly also morphed into, if you don't follow, not just the lives of the, if you don't just follow the church, but if you don't follow our way of things, and you are yikes, a wild savage. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Cool, cool, cool, cool.
Em Schulz: So it very quickly became like this, this cautionary tale of like how to be versus being some like wild person, just like causing chaos and, and not going to heaven.
Christine Schiefer: And like why would you ever want to be that way? Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I know. Yeah. And of course this is as the French is colonizing the land. Yay. So it's all terrible. Umm, the Loup-Garou was also seen as a werewolf for the most part, but sometimes was seen as a horse and sometimes was seen as just a very big dog with red fur. I do know one of those. His name is Clifford. And then.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I'm just saying maybe he's just a big dirty sinner.
Christine Schiefer: Well, we knew that already. Are you kidding me?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just stampeding through a town. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You think that motherfucker ever tithed a cent in his life?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I want everyone, here's your homework for the day by the way, Christine, umm, forget your book.
Christine Schiefer: I have enough. Uh.
Em Schulz: I need you, I need you to go watch with Leona, an episode of Clifford The Big Red Dog, and imagine that he's actually a cursed Christian who didn't tithe. And just, just have that mindset going into the show and then watch the storyline be completely different for you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I swear to God, this is when I was little. I still have this, I had the flu and I was home sick and I, my stepmom, I was at my dad's house. And so my stepmom like wheeled an old ass TV from like 1985 into my bedroom and like brought me soup. And I watched all that they had was for some reason 'cause the sat... We had satellite or something. And so this TV only had PBS. And so I remember I was like 13 and just watching like back to back episodes of Clifford with a high fever. And I wrote in my journal, like, this show, there's something wrong with this show. Like, I like took it and somehow internalized it and I was like, this mutant dog. Nobody thinks it's weird that this giant dog, like I went, I needed a hobby in that moment, umm, besides journaling and watching PBS kids. But anyway, I do have quite a storied past with that show already.
Em Schulz: It does make sense why he's so desperate to do a good deed all of a sudden at the end of every episode, maybe it's because he knows that he needs to repent for his filthy ways.
Christine Schiefer: It makes sense why he's always putting socks and shoes on and pants and underwear and he's trying to get back to his humanity. You know.
Em Schulz: Again, if we're just going to use me as the only source, whether or not it's credible, we could just say that like maybe he was a big fat homosexual and they said...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Yikes. You're a dog now.
Christine Schiefer: Probably, that's probably...
Em Schulz: You're a wild animal's and you're gonna actually star in your own show though. But, but you know, it's gonna take a while for things to, to turn around.
Christine Schiefer: We don't know why he got so giant though. I guess.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's so everyone could stare at you because you're a sore on the community. I think that was where we went.
Christine Schiefer: You're punishing...
Em Schulz: Wow. We should go back into TV writing.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. I can confidently say I don't think that'll go very well. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know how like there's like the Riverdale version of like, we, we should, we should do the Riverdale version of Clifford, the big red dog.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Christ. Yeah. That's the, what the world needs. I'm sure.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Well you let me know. You get back to me when the answer is affirm. Yes. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'll, I'll think about it.
Em Schulz: Well, so apparently you could be a werewolf, a big horse. You could be Clifford, and you are also known to have big black eyes that glow red like burning coals. You can stand up on your hind legs and walk around. Now imagine if Clifford did that. That is Godzilla.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck. That's called Godzilla. Literally. Yes. And that has God in the name. So fucking explain that to me is what I have to say.
Em Schulz: Christine we have to go back into TV writing. You simply must.
Christine Schiefer: We... You're right. It's a, it's a solid yes for me. You've changed my mind.
Em Schulz: So during the day, a Loup-Garou, uh, walks around as a human. Oh, okay. So we were wrong about everything we just said. Great. During the day, the Loup-Garou can walk around as a human amongst its neighbors who are totally unaware that apparently you shift into one of these creatures later at night this is when you become this big violent beast who will kill even your own friends. But again, very symbolic. So if you leave the church, then you can abandon everyone you've ever known and loved because you're a wild animal.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And nothing. Yeah. You have no morals.
Em Schulz: No moral compass. Uh there, however, there unlike other werewolves, Loup-Garou's can be cured. Can you guess what the cure is?
Christine Schiefer: A little dip in the baptismal font perhaps.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah. It's, it's symbolically finding God because uh, the literal cure to a Loup-Garou is spilling a few drops of their blood. Very Catholic sacrificey.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: But you cannot kill the Loup-Garou because then you're also killing the Christian within them. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, that's deep. Yikes.
Em Schulz: As a 12-year-old, I would've been like, whoa. That's crazy. That's so metal. Umm, so the challenge is to get close enough to a Loup-Garou to draw its blood without getting hurt yourself while also not killing it. Umm. And if you do that, you can then save the Loup-Garou.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right.
Em Schulz: And, uh...
Christine Schiefer: And so we're just getting into like colonizing and like converting people to your church.
Em Schulz: It's almost as if you picked up on that real quick.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, wow. [laughter] Just tell me I did a good job. So I can like internally cry.
Em Schulz: I'll text Leona, she'll do it for me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Thank you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That way it feels more precious instead of...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: You know, condescending.
Christine Schiefer: Hurtful. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So in some versions it's even best to dip your weapon in holy water before, uh, before you know, hurting them to ensure that the curing of the Loup-Garou actually happens.
Christine Schiefer: Sure thing.
Em Schulz: And I could imagine at this time, and maybe even to some people in this time, it's a very slippery slope where, where now if you see, a person acting without a moral compass, you could think they're on their way to becoming a Loup-Garou and all they need is Jesus to save them, you just.
Christine Schiefer: Need to be saved. Yeah. It's a very scary concept.
Em Schulz: So this folklore ended up changing up again as it got passed down to other areas that the French moved to. And so that was when they were, uh, in Canada. And now the French that are moving into like the Deep South of the US or islands like Haiti, they're bringing their stories with them and it's morphing even more. So this is where the Loup-Garou gets mixed in with voodoo traditions, because...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Now they're heading towards Louisiana.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And by the 1700s, the Loup-Garou was becoming more synonymous with Cajun culture and its name because the L in that, in that dialect kind of sounds more like an R the Loup-Garou.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Became the Rougarou.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. How interesting.
Em Schulz: So in Louisiana specifically, the Rougarou throughout the stories morphed into a creature that made more sense with the area. And so it became more of a Werewolf that lives amongst the wetlands.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay.
Em Schulz: And so it appears at night, many people say that unlike normal Werewolves, the Rougarou is actually conscious the entire time of who they are and what they're doing and can morph at will. So it's more of a shapeshifter than just a determined by the time of day.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds a little Skinwalker ish.
Em Schulz: It does, yeah. And over time, this lore also mixed with other lores that was... That were traveling through the area like witchowls and other Shapeshifters. And soon the Rougarou, became this being that can morph not just into a wolf, but any swamp animal. Umm, and so that's how it became like the Swamp Werewolf, where it's technically a Werewolf, but it can be an alligator for all, you know. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: One story actually, uh, that got passed through is that someone was driving by a swamp at night and hit a cow, and when they went to check on the cow, a human was limping away. Which like, yikes. Imagine if it was just a human the whole time, and they just...
Christine Schiefer: Like, I hit that cow. Excuse me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: A big fat cow.
Christine Schiefer: You just broke my fucking leg. You asshole.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And now you're calling me a cow from your car.
Christine Schiefer: Now you call me a cow. Like right. It's like cherry on top. Thank you.
Em Schulz: And since you think I'm a a mystical creature, you're not even gonna offer me a ride to the hospital. Thank you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So Rougarou's are able to be cured in the same way as Loup-garou's. Umm, but there is a price for the hero. So this feels even more like, oh, you have to be the savior, you have to sacrifice something for another.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, but if you were to draw the blood from a Rougarou, you yourself become a Rougarou for 101 days.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which, like, why would anyone save anyone then? I wouldn't.
Christine Schiefer: Then what's the point of that?
Em Schulz: If I found out you were a Rougarou and I could save you as long as I took your place for 101 days, I'd be like, Christine, I'll see you in a, in a hundred days. I'm, that sounds bad. That sounds bad.
Christine Schiefer: No. And, but I, I don't, I don't wanna be tasked when with you having to, now I have to fucking stab you. You already stabbed. Why are we doing this?
Em Schulz: Well, so here's the other thing though. Here's the other thing.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: If you become one and you tell nobody, you just live with the burden.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: Then the curse will be lifted for everybody. But if you tell someone, so like, if I come to you and I bitch about it, and I'm like, Ugh, day 53 of being a Rougarou, I want just end this. This is terrible. Your curse is not only lifted or oh, not only not lifted. You stay one forever and the person you told becomes one.
Christine Schiefer: You know how fast I would just stab you with a fork? Like if you said to me I'd be like...
Em Schulz: I would stab myself.
Christine Schiefer: You'd ruined it.
Em Schulz: I literally, it's like, and also so counterintuitive because if the point of becoming one was to save somebody from the misery, but now you're actually causing someone the misery.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck, it seems like so many fucking, what do you call it, like traps. It feels like, you know, like, like.
Em Schulz: Like a mental abuse of like, don't complain about your burdens.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But still try to alleviate others and take on their burdens and then don't tell others about... It just feels like...
Christine Schiefer: And then suffer in silence.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't like this. I don't like it. One bit.
Em Schulz: Other ways to become a Rougarou in Louisiana folklore is to violate Catholic customs, much like the loup-garou curse. And some people have said that they remember even being warned growing up, that if they broke the rules during Lent, they'd become a Rougarou. And if a Rougarou is chasing you.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: This is where I think maybe, umm, like how you mentioned earlier in New Orleans, there's like the combined Werewolf Vampire Tour we went on.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right.
Em Schulz: So there, I think their stories kind of bleed into each other because once it lands in Louisiana, uh, this other additive comes through where if a Rougarou is chasing you, you can throw 13 objects, uh, on the ground and like a Vampire, they will have to stop and count the items. But since they can only count to 12, if you throw 13 on the ground, they will spend all night like on a loop trying to count, and then you save yourself from the attack.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: That's apparently a thing with a lot of Vampire stories where they can only count to 12. So if you leave 13 somewhere, then they stay in this like paradox of trying to count.
Christine Schiefer: That is just so odd.
Em Schulz: Umm, and it bleeds into Rougarou lore as well, so...
Christine Schiefer: I just like, I wonder... I mean, 13 is such a symbolic number. Do you think they just said, oh, they can't count to 13?
Em Schulz: Yeah, it makes just about as much sense to me as everything else.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah true.
Em Schulz: As like, oh, let me just make up a rule. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess so.
Em Schulz: I'm like, well, they like the, they like the uh full dozen, but a baker's dozen?
Christine Schiefer: The bible said something about 13. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: So the creature is still a part of multiple cultures in Canada, Louisiana, islands like Haiti, and its name has even become a nickname for people who stay up late causing trouble, which is me. I'm a little Rougarou.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, sure is.
Em Schulz: And nowadays, the Rougarou, which is officially like a wetlands creature, is like known to be like a cryptid of the wetlands. It's also, at least in Louisiana, is a mascot for wetland preservation, and they have the Rougarou Festival, which this year, by the way, is in October, and it raises funds for Louisiana's disappearing swamps, and it turned him into an environmental champion, all right.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: And I looked up the uh festival for anybody who's nearby or going to be in New Orleans in umm... Or I don't think it's in New Orleans. It's a town I don't know. It's in Louisiana. I don't think it's New Orleans though. But umm if you're interested in going this year, the festival will have a parade, hot air balloon rides, a howling contest, pumpkin lighting, and an outdoor viewing of Ghostbusters and I mean...
Christine Schiefer: I mean our, our, our dance card is getting so full this year Em, like the number of festivals that we have, like the horseradish fest, like we have signed up, in mentally at least, for so many fucking festivals. We got to get this on the calendar stat.
Em Schulz: Every day, there's a new thing to celebrate. And sometimes you didn't even know it existed. Umm others still believe that the Rougarou is very real. There are still many sightings of the Rougarou throughout the swamps at night, and uh plenty of them are said to still be out there. So, you know, look out. If you see a Werewolf, or really any animal, apparently...
Christine Schiefer: Any animal.
Em Schulz: By the wetlands, you can now blame it on maybe running into a Rougarou.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. How do you spell Rougarou? Like if, if we want to look at that?
Em Schulz: R-O-U-G-A-R-O-U.
Christine Schiefer: I love that. Oh God, it's, oh no. It's so scary.
Em Schulz: Yeah, most of the pictures still like make it look definitely like a Werewolf, but umm in Louisiana specifically is where it could morph into anything, it seems.
Christine Schiefer: These are creepy. He's not as cute as I had hoped.
Em Schulz: I would like them to morph into something cuter. They're apparently able to, so.
Christine Schiefer: Alright. I would hope so.
Em Schulz: If I were a Shapeshifter, I feel like I would use it for, to look cuter all the time. And then I take back all the time because when I'm walking on the street alone at night, I would want to look like the nastiest, creepiest, scariest fucking thing in the world.
Christine Schiefer: The Rougarou. I mean, let me send you a picture. This is how I picture you.
Em Schulz: Is it just a picture of my fucking face, Christine? What?
Christine Schiefer: No. Well, yeah, it is a picture of your fucking face. It's actually a picture of your whole body.
Em Schulz: I don't even know what's going on. I resent it though. Whatever you're about to do. Oh my God. Yeah. Well, that's how I would want to look umm at night...
Christine Schiefer: Good news.
Em Schulz: When I'm walking back from the club.
Christine Schiefer: Good news.
Em Schulz: Shut up, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Don't, don't change a thing.
Em Schulz: See that's, that's what Clifford was trying to go for and uh he only like mid morphed.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, apparently I was traumatized... I seem to have been traumatized by Clifford's appearance as a 12 year old with a fever. So apparently it works.
Em Schulz: Also, here's my question about Clifford, 'cause I've always wanted to know, or really any very large creature. When they're talking, like they can't keep a secret. They certainly can't whisper one because the whole town's going to hear it. Like if you're talking at a normal conversational level, are... And they're talking to you, if you're looking up at Clifford or the Incredible Hulk or whoever it is, obviously I've thought about this with the Incredible Hulk. Like if they're talking to you in a normal conversational voice, do they have to actively whisper so it sounds conversational to us or is their conversational?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you mean like, 'cause their vocal chords are so much bigger?
Em Schulz: I guess so or like 'cause their voice is so booming and like physically like they're all the way up there. It's like, I feel like their voice is just bellowing throughout the town when they're not even trying to be loud.
Christine Schiefer: Well no, 'cause isn't there a whole thing where Clifford can only speak to Emily Elizabeth? Like he can't speak to other people.
Em Schulz: He can speak to his other puppy friends.
Christine Schiefer: Dogs. Yeah. So they're probably barking.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine Clifford being your neighborhood dog and that bark every morning? Woof. Woof.
Christine Schiefer: I would sue. Uh I would sue immediately.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: The HOA.
Christine Schiefer: Clifford the big red dog fucking. The HOA. Okay, here we go. Clifford the big red dog spoilers. Okay. I can't. I can't. I need to get off Reddit. This is not good.
Em Schulz: What's the spoiler that he's a dog?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to spoil it for everyone.
Em Schulz: But I, but I do wonder, I'm like, is his bark a normal level for our ears or do you have to like cover your ears when like he... When he's talking to you? I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: This is like the wildest shit. I've stopped listening to our Podcast because this person thinks that there's a fan... This person's fan theory is that Clifford is actually symbolic of antidepressants.
Em Schulz: Well, Winnie the Pooh is, right? They're like all different mental health issues.
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact, they are not being ironic or kidding because people definitely asked in the comments and they were like, no.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So spoiler alert. It's not a spoiler if it's your own fan theory, right? Like you can't be like, this is a spoiler. He represents, I'm like, that's not a spoiler.
Em Schulz: I knew about the Winnie the Pooh one. That one makes sense to me that they're all like a different mental health thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But then I heard the umm seven, like Snow White and the Seven Dwarves one, and apparently all seven of them are like different umm side effects of like cocaine or something. Like there was some wild one that I would hear.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds like some '90s bullshit.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I feel like, cause I mean, that story was written like hundreds of years ago, so I'm like, I don't think that they were writing it. Like...
Em Schulz: I don't think they were either, but I definitely believed it at 12.
Christine Schiefer: Like Hans Christian Andersen or something or I don't know.
Em Schulz: It was definitely...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway...
Em Schulz: Like DARE propaganda. It was...
Christine Schiefer: Sure is.
Em Schulz: You will be Sneezy.
Christine Schiefer: You will be so drowsy. Wait, what? Yeah, so it's a Grimm, Brothers Grimm story and I mean maybe they were on cocaine, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't know, I mean they were drinking like normal tea, which had cocaine back then, so I don't even think they were aware of how much cocaine was in their body at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's the Rougarou.
Christine Schiefer: Good job.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Get it. Okay, uh let's see. I guess I should find my notes. Can I let Gio out real quick?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: He is complaining.
Em Schulz: While Christine isn't here. Umm she texted me earlier and she said, uh if you died, I would write the Bitchiest eulogy. [laughter] And I was like, it was only half prompted.
Christine Schiefer: It was prompted 'cause you said, if I die today, you will only have these screenshots and I will look like a basket case. And I'm like, yeah, and I will put them in a slideshow and play it at your funeral and be like, one time Em told me I had a dull ass personality on the day of my most intimidating job interview. Yeah. Em is a basket case. RIP.
Em Schulz: I feel like if you're going to put all of the things that I ever sent in like a... You know like at like a funeral when it's someone, you pick music and there's a slideshow.
Christine Schiefer: I sure do because I already built it in my mind. Yep.
Em Schulz: As long as you put fun little emojis that make it like silly, goofy, like you put like the little hearts, the two little pink hearts that are swirling together or the three little stars, just to make it sound like it was meant to be like...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: I seem to remember having a little...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: In the text about the eulogy and you seem to not to have.
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying if you bring that energy, I'm down for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Alright, cool. There was no emoji in that message you sent me weirdly on Snapchat, so that's odd, but umm.
Em Schulz: Well, that was...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: I guess I can be the bigger person...
Em Schulz: I can't defend who I was five years ago. That was, that was, I dunno what to tell you. Why are you saving things from five years ago?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I literally have no idea. I was going back for Beach Too Sandy. I needed to find a photo of me from like 2000, whatever, '17, '18, and I'm like, what is this weird screenshot? I save everything. You know that I save everything.
Em Schulz: How many pictures do you have in your phone right now? Like if you looked at all pictures?
Christine Schiefer: A lot. Do you want to know for real?
Em Schulz: Yeah 'cause I also have a lot, actually, one of my like personal goals is to clear out my photos.
Christine Schiefer: There's an app for that.
Em Schulz: Right now I have... Oh hold on. I want to guess how many for you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. How many do you have?
Em Schulz: I think you have 80,000.
Christine Schiefer: How many do you have?
Em Schulz: You guess? For me?
Christine Schiefer: 50,000.
Em Schulz: I have 56.
Christine Schiefer: I have 56.
Em Schulz: Wait, hold on. What's your number, number? What's the official one?
Christine Schiefer: 56,530.
Em Schulz: I literally have only a hundred more than you.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I have 56,655.
Christine Schiefer: That is really weird. I'm gonna take 125 photos right now, Gio. Then we'll have an even number. That's really weird.
Em Schulz: Interesting. That's a fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's a freaky coincidence.
Em Schulz: Which is... I think it's because all of my, my, my travels, I think I take a lot of pictures on my travels and you take a lot of pictures during your mental travels when you decide to just reread screenshots from 2000 and...
Christine Schiefer: My mental travels.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yours would be all the poop cafe and your fun adventures but mine is just like me screenshotting your texts about the poop cafe. Like that's how our, our relationship is so meta. I don't know, man. That's, that's a wild thought. Wow.
Em Schulz: Anyway, okay. I'm ready for you to regale me.
Christine Schiefer: I'm... So.
Em Schulz: I wasn't earlier. I, I think I needed to get in the zone and I'm very in the zone now.
Christine Schiefer: I literally took 16 photos today. What was I taking photos of? I literally just took a photo of my therapy office.
Em Schulz: I never take one photo. I always take at least three or four and then I forget to delete the first three that sucked more than the last one.
Christine Schiefer: Right I never delete. I like sometimes heart one and then leave the rest.
Em Schulz: I... My goal, it took literally so long. There was a day, it was last weekend or whenever I was last home and I tried to go through pictures and like delete umm... I was just trying to get through 2019 and it took like eight hours...
Christine Schiefer: There's, there's an app.
Em Schulz: To go through every picture.
Christine Schiefer: There's an app that TikTok keeps telling me about that like will group together like similar photos so you can like select one and it'll delete the rest. So I would look into that. 'Cause I used it once and it was actually incredibly helpful, umm.
Em Schulz: Okay. Good to know.
Christine Schiefer: Cause it like, it makes it less overwhelming because it bunches them together.
Em Schulz: Well, my stupid thing is I have the thing on my phone where I umm... To screenshot, I don't have to press the two buttons on either side. I just tap the back of my phone. So anytime that I tap...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I can't stand that.
Em Schulz: Anytime my phone hits the table or something, it takes a screenshot. So I think like 10,000 of these are just screenshots of unnecessary things.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That I feel like I had that on for two days and I was like, I'm going to lose my mind. I cannot, I can't deal with this anymore.
Em Schulz: Especially with your tapping problem.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Thank you. You get it. Uh it's not going, not going to end well. Okay. I have a story to you... Hold on, let me start over. This is my book report. [laughter] Am I failing? Yes. Uh I have a book report today. This is the story. This is an Australian story. This is the story of Malcolm Naden.
Em Schulz: Okay. Ready.
Christine Schiefer: So it's early 2000s. January 4th, 2005, 24-year-old Lateesha Nolan stopped by her grandparents' house with her four young children. She told her grandparents she'd only be out for a little while. She just had a short errand to run, and she left the four kids at their great grandparents' house and stepped out into the dark, got in her car and drove away. At the time her Aunt Margaret Walker lived next door and Margaret noticed uh it was getting dark, it was getting late, and Lateesha had said, oh, I'm just doing a quick errand.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And it had been far too long. And so they started to get nervous and knew something must be wrong because Lateesha was a doting mother and would not have just run off and leave her four kids behind with no news or a phone call or something. So the minutes ticked by and Lateesha's family got more and more worried and tragically their worries were not misplaced because Lateesha never came home.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Lateesha's car was discovered on the banks of a nearby river, abandoned, and a search of the area found no evidence of her whatsoever. So they weren't sure whether she had drowned in the river or perhaps left on foot, or was taken to a second location by an abductor. It was just unclear what had happened. There were a handful of reports uh covering her disappearance, but, Lateesha was an indigenous Australian woman, and it has been apparently difficult for Saoirse or I to find many stories covering umm her disappearance in the news. It's, it's, it's an odd thing. I mean, I think we see this a lot, but it's, it's a situation where the murderer ends up becoming, you know, much more famous or infamous in this case, than the victims. Like the victims sort of get lost in the shuffle, you know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Like in the in the story about the guy himself. And so uh it's just worth noting that uh they, it wasn't much reported when it uh first happened. So, as we know, this is often what happens, especially when women are indigenous or, you know, and we've covered the Canadians... Canadians, [laughter], the Canadian plight, [laughter], Jesus Christ, uh the Canadian plight, the missing and murdered, indigenous women and girls. And uh you know, it seems like this is just uh same old, same old all over the world. Not, not very shocking.
Christine Schiefer: So, Lateesha left behind a devoted and devastated family, four young kids, uh all reeling for answers that seemed like they might never come. And the only lead they had was this car at the river. There were no suspects, no path to follow. I mean, they didn't even know what the errand run, that she was running was. So they really had no avenues to take. It seemed pretty much hopeless until six months passed. Six months later, another woman disappeared from the same house.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So 24 year-old.
Em Schulz: Was it on the same, the exact same house?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 24-year-old Kristy Scholes was part of Lateesha's family, and she was described in the media as the defacto wife of one of Lateesha's cousins. And in Australia, a defacto marriage refers to a long-term domestic partnership.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Where the couple may be not legally married, but they're still entitled to certain legal rights that legally married couples have, you know, similar ideas to what we have here, but it's called a defacto marriage.
Em Schulz: Cool.
Christine Schiefer: So, in June, 2005, Kristy, again, she's 24, she was staying in the house for the weekend with her two young children while the rest of the family was out of town. And just like Lateesha, Kristy was a doting mother, a beloved friend, Lateesha's grandparents were out of town, and Kristy was staying at the house, but she felt very uneasy and she knew, like this is the last place Lateesha was seen, and there was just something that was making her uncomfortable. So she actually called the...
Em Schulz: She had like a gut feeling early on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like she just, and you know, it probably had something to do with the fact that her cousins... Or her, I'm sorry, her partner's, her husband's cousin Lateesha had vanished from that house six months earlier, you know, but, for whatever reason, she felt uneasy.
Christine Schiefer: She called a family member around 9:30 PM and expressed that she was feeling a bit nervous staying there, and that was the last time she would ever be heard from. So the next day, one of the neighbors noticed Kristy's four-year-old daughter climbing into the house through a bedroom window. Apparently the four-year-old had cut the screen to get out of the room and look for her mother.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Because she couldn't find.
Em Schulz: That's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible. So the neighbor knocked on the door, there's no answer. So worried he enters the home, I'm presuming with a spare key and finds no sign of Kristy. Her children had been stuck in a bedroom that was locked from the outside. So that is why they had to climb out of the screen because they had been locked in this bedroom. It's just really scary and sad. So they had cut their way out.
Em Schulz: Which also like... This also umm, not meant to be a compliment, but it's, the, I don't think I knew that like a four-year-old even had the wherewithal to think like, there's a screen if I cut it. Like, it just, it gives a sense of like almost figuring things out out of desperation. Like or like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a great point. I mean, I can't say what a four-year-old can do. Mine's two. And I can.
Em Schulz: Like, I'm not trying to say like, oh wow, how smart of her, which, like, it was smart of the four-year-old, but I'm not trying to make it into like a good thing. It's just like, wow it didn't even, I don't even know if I was a four-year-old if it...
Christine Schiefer: It makes me sad. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It would've crossed my mind to be so desperate to find my mom that to cut something open.
Christine Schiefer: You climb out the window. I mean, it's just really sad too, because you think like, if that was the oldest child, like the older sibling that she had to like, you know, make the decision and climb out the window on behalf of her siblings.
Em Schulz: Like, do something scary like no four-year-old wants to do that.
Christine Schiefer: Like take charge. You're four. Like, it's just always terrible to me when little kids have to grow up so fast in situations like this.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, yeah, tiny four-year-old little girl, it's horrible. So she had been locked in with her sibling in this bedroom, and so of course he lets them out but doesn't see Kristy anywhere, their mother. And they say, we went out to look for her, couldn't find her, came back through the window. So the neighbor began making some calls and said like, "Hey, this, these two children's mother is not here, and they're really small and they're looking for her". And where could she be? So family arrived soon and started a, a search. And when the whole day basically passed with no word from her, they notified the police. And the police sent officers and a detective to the house, and they searched the house for any clues pointing to where Kristy could be. And they discovered that the guest bedroom door was locked from the inside.
Em Schulz: Is that the one where the kids were or that's a different room?
Christine Schiefer: A different room. A different room.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That one had been locked as well, but was now uh... That had been, that one had been locked from the outside so that the kids couldn't get out. This room was locked from the inside.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, I see. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. So, turns out Lateesha's cousin, 31-year-old, Malcolm Naden was living in that room temporarily. And they kind of just, the family just kind of assumed like, oh, well, since the door was locked, we just assumed he was living in there and wanted his privacy, you know, for whatever reason. Mm-Hmm. And so they thought, oh, well, Kristy must have left the house. Well, unfortunately, once they forced access into the bedroom, there was no Malcolm Naden to be found, but there was a pile of clothing and bedding on the floor, and underneath this pile of clothing was the body of Kristy.
Em Schulz: Oof. Wow. I kind of saw that coming, but yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. So Kristy had passed away seemingly some hours before, and pretty quickly authorities suspected that she had been murdered for obvious reasons, and the house immediately became a crime scene, which must have been... Just imagine like, I mean, it's horrible to just think like her family was in there all day looking for her.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Outside the house. And she was inside the house.
Em Schulz: Or even the hindsight of the, the four-year-old, like so desperate to find their mom. They were like willing to climb onto a roof and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And all this stuff. Just to know that she was in the other room the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: One bedroom away. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So, according to Malcolm's later confession, umm, Kristy had been brushing her teeth in the bathroom. I mean, this is like out of a fucking horror movie, when he just came up right behind her, grabbed her and strangled her to death.
Em Schulz: That is right out of a horror movie. Like you close the medicine cabinet...
Christine Schiefer: It is. I was gonna say, you're looking the mirror. Oh, you spit and look up. Oh my God. I mean, it's like, I feel like every nineties horror movie, but like worse because it's reality.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so apparently the way he described it was he took her so by surprise that there wasn't much of a struggle, and he overtook her. He overpowered her pretty quickly. Umm, and he strangled her to death. Then he brought her body into his room, raped her, and left her body there under a pile of clothes. He then locked the door to the bedroom and climbed out of a window.
Em Schulz: Sorry. He raped her after she was already dead.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I, I mean, not that that's better, I just.
Christine Schiefer: No, I also, I guess I'll ex... I'll say what he commented about it, it's disgusting, it's sick. But he said after he explained what he had done, he said, because he figured he would have one for the road.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Throughout this there's this complete and utter callousness that even he describes later where he says in his fucking philosophical musings from prison or whatever where he just is like you know I should really do some deep diving into my own psyche and figure out like what's wrong with me. [laughter] I'm like...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe maybe you should've done that...
Em Schulz: And you know he probably thought that was the most intellectual thing he could ever whip out too...
Christine Schiefer: Right Right. So deep. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's probably like I don't even have to do any more work because me thinking that was as deep as it goes.
Christine Schiefer: I think I solved it yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking asshole so...
Em Schulz: He probably found himself the most empathetic person in the prison.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh. He even says like... He actually says the opposite. He actually says that he doesn't understand why he doesn't feel anything after he kills somebody. So he clearly...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: Has admitted at least self-diagnosed with uh psychopathy or sociopathy uh because...
Em Schulz: Some sort of pathology, he's got something going on there.
Christine Schiefer: Pathology, 'cause he has said he just feels nothing. Uh just a lack of empathy there. So very very disturbing. Umm so anyway uh that is how he had later described it. But at the time you know they just find her body and assume he, she has been killed. Umm the room had been locked from the inside so nobody could walk in on them and the window was open meaning he had most likely locked the children into their bedroom and then uh locked himself in with Kristy and then escaped out the window.
Christine Schiefer: So that's kind of what they've uh pieced together at this point. So this is when authorities receive startling information which is that, Hmm how weird. Another young woman has disappeared from this exact same property six months ago. At the time they didn't know, at the time of Lateesha's disappearance they didn't know that a man named Malcolm Naden had been living there. So he was never even questioned in relation to her disappearance.
Em Schulz: Right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Much less investigated. Right. And so now a woman is dead not just missing and in Malcolm's room and he's gone. So they're like oh God. Okay. So we're nailing a very obvious pattern here all of a sudden. And pretty immediately Malcolm Naden became the key person of interest in both Kristy's murder and Lateesha's disappearance again from under the same fucking roof. Like.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh. So the more people who spoke to investigators about Malcolm Naden the more disturbing the details became because even though his family described him as like a very good kid to have had around and described him as always helping with the dishes and you know like just being very polite, people who knew him closely also tended to describe him as a creep. Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So a little bit of a red flag there. Uh, [chuckle] creep I think is not strong enough of a word because there were already existing pending allegations against him for aggravated indecent assault against a minor.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And what had happened was back in 2004 which was only months before Lateesha's disappearance he had been staying with a family and in the middle of the night entered the 12-year-old daughter's room and molested her while she slept. And so those charges were pending at the time that authorities kind of pieced together that he's also involved with Lateesha and Kristy. So once the allegations came out about this sexual assault of this minor uh he began spending all his time in his room at his grandparents' house avoiding everyone. Like he basically became a shut in because people were kind of side eyeing him. Like, You did what to a small child?
Em Schulz: Yeah it's... For sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So women in his family including Lateesha had received alarming letters from him. And I mean this is... These are people in his own family and they're receiving letters soliciting sex off like writing like lustful comments.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To girls and women in his family. Just like really bizarre and and disturbing. Again I think creep...
Em Schulz: Not that...
Christine Schiefer: Probably is an understatement.
Em Schulz: I don't know if umm... I don't even know if it's like it's, it's probably not worth it. I was gonna say do you know like of any examples of like what exactly he was saying to them?
Christine Schiefer: You know I don't know off... I don't know off the top of my head.
Em Schulz: I mean it really it's, it's maybe not our business anyway of like you know putting someone like putting the spotlight directly on someone compared to everyone else. But it's like how...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I do believe them. I just wanna know like how intense and like red flaggy was this stuff. Was it like super duper?
Christine Schiefer: He was pretty blatantly asking for sex from...
Em Schulz: Wow okay sounds like...
Christine Schiefer: Female relatives including minors. So yeah it was definitely pretty egregious I think. Umm I will say that there was... So I listened to an episode of True Crime Island. It's a podcast. Umm and they covered this and they mentioned a an Australian broadcast show. It reminds me of like a 2020 or a 60 minutes or something umm where they released these promos that they had gained access to like hundreds of pages. I I think hundreds or maybe dozens of pages of Malcolm Naden's confessions. Like he wrote them all out and they were gonna reveal them on the show and the families of the victims begged this TV station to not...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: Release all this and they did it anyway so.
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So the host that I listened to made a great point you know of like not directly quoting that because they they had expressly asked them not to...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Share those details with the public. Umm so apparently those that context does exist somewhere maybe on like one of these torrent sites where you can download like shows from 20 years ago in other countries. But umm yeah I don't have the specific...
Em Schulz: Okay. Cool.
Christine Schiefer: Quotes and it would also be like from his own perspective so who knows if he's even...
Em Schulz: Right. Right right.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's always a grain of salt anyway like whether he is telling the truth or not. So yeah basically when they talked to the family the family was like yeah he's a huge creep. And like once he got busted sexually assaulting a child we all were kind of horrified. And that's when he started shutting himself in and writing us creepy letters and basically not being the normal quote unquote kid that he was [laughter] back in the day. Umm and so Lateesha herself had even received some of these letters uh before she vanished. And Kristy had received a similar letter. And so it's starting to kind of add up that... I mean no wonder she was uncomfortable staying there with this guy...
Em Schulz: Oh God yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In the next room who's writing her these letters. Like geez.
Em Schulz: Of course she had a weird feeling. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right? Yeah.
Em Schulz: She had some pretty obvious feelings. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No doubt. Why? So if that weren't enough detectives also discovered some holes in the ceiling throughout the house. And Malcolm would go up there like out of another fucking horror movie and watch his female family members and their friends dress and undress, shower, sleep do whatever.
Em Schulz: How does...
Christine Schiefer: Uh in the privacy of their own rooms.
Em Schulz: I mean it's obviously possible but in my mind I'm like how on earth do you not hear someone crawling all the way up there and like how small is this hole that no one else is noticing it but he's able to see the whole room you know which like...
Christine Schiefer: I bet you...
Em Schulz: It doesn't matter.
Christine Schiefer: I mean I think about it like you'd need like this much you know? Like you...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Put your eye up to a teeny tiny little thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You'll probably see a lot.
Em Schulz: Yeah I guess so.
Christine Schiefer: And I don't know if maybe his bedroom was upstairs like who knows maybe his bedroom was above a bathroom. I don't, I don't know. I I have no idea. But apparently he had been spying on them for a long time.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Uh really gross. Really gross. Umm he had actually told them in some of the letters, so I guess this does kind of answer your question, uh about like how egregious or how blatant it was. He had told some of them in the letters that he had been watching them in their house in their bedrooms.
Em Schulz: Urgh.
Christine Schiefer: And I guess they were like what? Like that's a creepy thing to say. Not thinking like he's literally watching from the ceiling.
Em Schulz: Right. He just means like I would think like oh he was like clocking me from the couch like when I was in the kitchen.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: Like...
Christine Schiefer: It's like a threatening like ooh I can... I'm watching you. Yeah yeah yeah. But if it was a literal I am watching you through a hole in the ceiling.
Em Schulz: Did he have holes in the bathroom? I bet he did.
Christine Schiefer: I think so. I think it was throughout the house. Which also like how did you even put those... Were the holes there? Did you drill them?
Em Schulz: I feel like he probably took a hammer and nailed a hole through.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like he he probably made the holes.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh. Sick. So yeah he watched them shower. Oh yeah. So you must have had a hole in the bathroom 'cause he watched them shower and...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: I mean how violating you know. So it was clear obviously to detectives that they were dealing with someone very dangerous who had very likely killed before. Now uh Lateesha's vanishing seemed like it could have had a much worse ending than they initially hoped. Uh the problem was he had vanished without a trace and became a fugitive and [laughter] he became such a fugitive in fact that he became famous for being a fugitive and was the target of the longest and most difficult manhunt in Australia's history.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact.
Em Schulz: What a title. And like in those letters I mean the first thing I always personally think I clock is like the cockiness of like their... I don't know like like him thinking he can get away with saying I've been watching you throughout the house.
Christine Schiefer: Like their grandi...
Em Schulz: Like it feels like...
Christine Schiefer: Like their grandiosity like oh I'm untouchable. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And like I feel like yes that's a fun fact that he's got that title but Urgh I'm so grossed out that like now he gets to call himself that and it's just like gives him whatever spotlight he wanted.
Christine Schiefer: Well Em, I'm so glad you noticed that because it actually gets worse uh as far as like...
Em Schulz: Oh good. You know I was having a bad day. I wanted it to be worse and now it gets to be even more horrible. Great. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome. Uh yeah it gets worse because let's just say he ends up being almost celebrated uh by some people. Uh yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is he one of those guys where like the women think he's hot and like...
Christine Schiefer: Umm I don't know if it's so much of that. It's more of like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: A folk hero type of worship like...
Em Schulz: Ew. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because he is on the run you know?
Em Schulz: I didn't know if this was like a Dahmer thing where it was like... Or a Ted Bundy thing where it's like he's so hot he he could kill me or whatever they would fucking say. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking gross. No I think it's more uh just the fact that he was on the run and the police couldn't catch him and people thought that was a noble activity. I don't know and like ignored the rest of the story. Umm but we'll get to it. So Malcolm is now a fugitive and detectives learned pretty quickly that Malcolm was not only a hunter and fisherman but he had actually had experience living in the bush uh AKA Australian wilderness. Which is worrisome because it is a hard [laughter] task to find somebody who is well-versed in living in the Australian wilderness.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm yeah they began to worry like maybe he will be able to live off the land and just go off into the vast wilderness and it would be like nearly impossible for them to mobilize a search. Uh but two weeks went by no luck catching up with Malcolm and the police decided a new tactic which was to launch a massive media campaign asking the public to help locate this fugitive. Unfortunately Malcolm had I guess thought ahead and he had meticulously removed and destroyed every single photo of him in his family's house. So they didn't...
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: Have a picture of like what he looked like in modern like they maybe had a childhood photo or something or an old photo but they did not have like a reliable quality picture to broadcast...
Em Schulz: Which like I mean...
Christine Schiefer: And that's '04, '05 like it's not you know that long ago.
Em Schulz: And not that he showed signs of I mean... It's not like they could have blamed mental illness on this and he was like not competent enough to know what he was doing.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right, right, right.
Em Schulz: It's not like they... It's not like that was even a thought at this point but this just double confirms that he knew everything that was going on. Like he was.
Christine Schiefer: It was all very very very premeditated. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: To like cut your, to destroy all the photos of yourself knowing that like people will be looking for you I mean...
Em Schulz: Yeah that's horrible.
Christine Schiefer: So terrifying. Even though they didn't have a reliable photo of him uh reports still came in from around the entire country. Uh most of them being dead ends. But six months after Kristy's murder police got a concerning report from the Taronga Western Plains Zoo. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Zoo. What the fuck did he do there? Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Em.
Em Schulz: Oh is he hiding there?
Christine Schiefer: He sure is.
Em Schulz: In a cave.
Christine Schiefer: Not in a cave. Here's how they found him first of all.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It began with the inexplicable scent of toast cooking at strange hours.
Em Schulz: Toast.
Christine Schiefer: Toast.
Em Schulz: So he has electricity or he is burning bread on a fire. It's one of the two.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Then food began going missing from animal enclosures. He's literally stealing like what raw steaks from the lion's den. I don't know but he's stealing. [laughter] Like he's stealing some Mealworms...
Em Schulz: Is he fighting off lions? Oooh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm like is he stealing mealworms from an owl or is he stealing like steaks from a lion? I don't know. But he's stealing food from the enclosures because food just starts mysteriously vanishing and uh the staff who lived on site 'cause there were some would wake up to their dogs barking at something at night but they never saw anything. Umm but they did start to hear some strange noises on the roof. Then a custodian who cleaned at the zoo went to the laundry facility and saw a man stealing clothes from the laundry.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And...
Em Schulz: I kind of see where this local legend thing ended up coming.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I I see why he overshadows the actual victims in the story.
Christine Schiefer: He's like on the run in this like yeah exactly that kind of...
Em Schulz: This is like a crazy yeah. This is like a a breaking news kind of story.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. It feels like uh very America's most wanted like fugitive on the run you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Type of uh frenzy that people got themselves into.
Em Schulz: Sensational.
Christine Schiefer: Sensa... Very sensational. Yes. Umm this custodian could tell that this man had not showered in weeks or even months. So she contacted the police to tell them basically about all of these strange facts and the police were like well we might just know who is up to this nonsense. Malcolm seems to be living as a fugitive in the zoo so...
Em Schulz: Crazy.
Christine Schiefer: At the end of December... It is and it's 2005 like [laughter] it's like there's cameras and shit you know but I guess he's just...
Em Schulz: Do we ever get to hear his like plan like how he got into the zoo or how he like snuck in and like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure.
Em Schulz: Because I'm curious about there's like people who it's like it's like impossible to sneak into Disneyland. Like I wanna know like what his, how he so seamlessly on try one got into the zoo and stayed there and was unseen for weeks.
Christine Schiefer: So what we do know is that uh they managed to get his fingerprints inside the entrance to a ceiling inside the zoo.
Em Schulz: He loves climbing in those fucking ceilings.
Christine Schiefer: He sure fucking does. Because he had been living in the ceilings watching the employees the way he had watched women back home.
Em Schulz: He just can't get enough.
Christine Schiefer: He's a fucking I mean... Creep I guess is the word. He's a fucking creep. So they launched a tactical operation at the zoo to search the 700 acres of zoo grounds. But Malcolm was already gone 'cause I guess he caught wind that they were coming for him. And when they searched the zoo and this guy was gone uh they placed a $50,000 bounty on him and he disappeared virtually for 14 months. And they could not track this guy down until February 2007 hundreds of miles away from the zoo. There was a break-in and when they collected DNA at the site they were able to conclude that it was Malcolm who had been breaking and entering, even somehow he had made it hundreds of miles away without being detected or caught by police.
Em Schulz: Amazing. I would love to see him do it today in 2024 with like security cameras everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like even though it was quote unquote modern times it was still 20 years ago you know so it's it's.
Em Schulz: According to the law and order episodes from that era there weren't a lot of cameras going on.
Christine Schiefer: I guess you're right. I said there were security cameras but then I was like I guess '05 '06. Like especially if you're in kind of a... I mean this isn't like the airport or like the uh, you know.
Em Schulz: Right. Well also now I mean now I wouldn't even think about cameras for like tracking somebody. It would be your phone. It would be like.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like digital footprint somehow.
Em Schulz: Like Smart Tech.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Or even like think about he's breaking into all these places now with doorbell cameras and shit. [laughter] Like I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It would not be like actual CCTV that I would rely on before any anything else. It would be like.
Christine Schiefer: It would be people's TikTok Videos...
Em Schulz: Where's your laptop?
Christine Schiefer: Being like who's this guy on my doorbell? Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait. Oh dude I saw the creepiest TikTok the other day. This girl said that she was umm at home alone and her dog started barking and she got a really weird feeling and she saw this lady standing at the edge of her, edge of her driveway. And umm she just felt very weird about it and like I guess locked the door and went back to the ring footage and there's nobody there.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: She's like she like shows the footage. She's like, she was, she circles it. She's like she was standing here and you can like see... I, I'm pretty sure you can like see her go like check out the door and close it. And she's like I saw this woman standing right there and on the footage there's nobody there. Some people were like maybe check for a gas leak...
Em Schulz: That's almost worse that... Oh maybe it's a gas leak.
Christine Schiefer: Like car, carbon monoxide. I'm like check carbon monoxide but then that's creepy as shit.
Em Schulz: Well that's awful because it feels like that's like again out of a horror movie of like someone like.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Standing in front of your door to be like this is the beginning of you know I can't get into your home yet but as.
Christine Schiefer: Is Tamara home? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. As we get, as you get more comfortable and settled here I'll be able to get closer to the door. Yeah. Wooo.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And the dog bark. Honestly like the way she framed it was definitely creepier. I don't I just don't wanna mis misrepresent the details of it but it was definitely creepy. I was just like oh my God...
Em Schulz: I think the dog barking and freaking out lets you know everything you need to know that like...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Even the dog is uncomfortable. It's like like this is not a good something.
Christine Schiefer: So we already talked how lycanthropes... Lycanthropes know they have good instincts. You know they know they know who's a bad guy.
Em Schulz: That's exactly right.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine the next day that woman appears closer but has no nose.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. Okay. Anyway so they find his DNA hundreds of miles away at the site of a break-in and they're like wow okay. So he's made moves these past 14 months. And of course it's impressive that he has gotten so far on foot. Umm they were starting to build a new profile based on the zoo incident and the break-in and they were determining that he was not in fact the extremely skilled back country outdoorsman that they had thought because he needed to steal food like and make toast and steal clothes to survive. He wasn't like living off the land. He was basically you know robbing people.
Em Schulz: You... Yeah. You know what's weird though is well I guess I don't know enough about what animals eat but I was gonna think like bread I was like that feels like he's in the break room. Like I feel like... I don't know an animal that's getting bread, maybe a duck. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wait what? What are you talking about?
Em Schulz: Like how he was like... How he's making toast and everything. I'm I'm still stuck on like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah...
Em Schulz: How is he getting the ingredients? 'Cause I know like with like... I get that like with meat he's going into an enclosure.
Christine Schiefer: But that's what they mean is like he has to steal it from people. Like he has to steal food and clothes from people to survive. So he's not...
Em Schulz: Right but I, I...
Christine Schiefer: Living off the land like they thought.
Em Schulz: Oh oh oh oh okay. I think I was thinking as you were talking and I mixed up your notes with my genius thought, my original thought that...
Christine Schiefer: Sure...
Em Schulz: Came into my head by itself. Your turn. Sorry. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. I mean yes he probably stole bread like from somebody's lunch or something. Like he wasn't getting it like from the wild or the, or the... Oh is that what you meant? Like which animals at the zoo were getting bread?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I don't know. You're right. It's probably the break room. I mean considering he was found in the laundry room stealing clothes.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So he must have had access to the break room. In which case like I feel like most of his food should have been coming from the break room. Like there's nothing more ridiculous to me than like the thought of him like fighting off a zebra or something. Like for raw meat.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] To get, to get like some grains or whatever the fuck. [laughter] Zebras eat grass. Like if he wanted the good food he would have to fight off a lion. Right. Or like a seal or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then he'd have to know how to prep it or something. Like imagine being like given like a...
Christine Schiefer: Like cook it...
Em Schulz: A zebra leg and imagine that happening...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: In the enclosure next to the actual zebras and they just like actually clock...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: What's happening. They're like wait a minute.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Where'd you get that?
Christine Schiefer: They're like why can't we speak? We have something to report. [laughter] Oh lord. Oh lord. Oh lord. Yeah. So basically all that to say the police are determining like oh shit this guy's not some outdoorsy guy that can survive solo in the wilderness. Like he needs to steal bread and...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Food and clothes etcetera. So in other words that meant he would have to resurface at some point.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Somebody would notice that he was around somewhere stealing and he sure was spotted again. He was spotted at the Misty Mountain Health Retreat. And this is... This is like... I feel like this whole story is just a bunch of horror movies smashed together because [laughter] there was this caretaker who lived there and she lived there in the off season alone in the 1200 acres of thick bushland and she began noticing...
Em Schulz: So we're in The Shining, got it.
Christine Schiefer: Legit, seriously, because she begins noticing strange things happening like the smell of toast cooking in the woods while she's out for a jog. [laughter] First of all this motherfucker can't just eat a piece of bread like why are you even toasting it?
Em Schulz: Yeah that's a great point or like, like...
Christine Schiefer: You're getting caught multiple times for toasting bread.
Em Schulz: Like truly the biggest exhibit A anyone has gotten so far is on smell and every time it's toast.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: He, he's probably going through that era. You know how we all go through a phase like once a year where we're obsessed with like bread and butter and then after that we like...
Christine Schiefer: All I do.
Em Schulz: Don't touch it for a year.
Christine Schiefer: All I eat. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's probably having his moment. But like like also how much harder must it be to toast bread out in the wild unless he's frying the bread. But like it's such a specific smell. Like if you're gonna cook something outside at least cook something that would smell like outside or that something like barbecue or something that someone else nearby might be making or... But bread is so specific.
Christine Schiefer: Well she was supposed to be completely alone on this 1200 acres so if, if a... If anything...
Em Schulz: Which also by the way his best bet might have been well so like wait live in the house. He, we know he loves ceilings. Just live in the ceiling. Wait till she's gone and then use the fucking kitchen to toast the bread because then at least it will smell like kitchen and she will think maybe she cooked something earlier.
Christine Schiefer: Well don't worry Em because items began going missing from her pantry.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Like the toaster. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Just the food, uh food starts disappearing from the back of the pantry.
Em Schulz: In my mind it's still like The Shining where he's like in... Like I'm sure it really is just a cabin in my brain though when I hear 12,000 acres I think a 12,000 acre building [laughter] and I'm like "Oh well there's a lot of kitchens you could be fucking around IN... "
Christine Schiefer: Nope. It's just her little shed and umm and her alone in the off season. So.
Em Schulz: Makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But also so much scarier to be like "I'm alone on this land. I'm in the peaceful wilderness." And then like things start disappearing from the pantry.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It must be so unsettling. So she starts noticing these things and finally one day she's near one of the facilities buildings and she spots Malcolm and no... Again nobody's supposed to be around. So she shouts at him but he runs off into the bush. One night a few weeks later she wakes up to the sound of someone trying to open the door to her cabin.
Em Schulz: Gasp... Sick.
Christine Schiefer: Then...
Em Schulz: That's so creepy.
Christine Schiefer: So creepy. Then a flashlight shines through her window and hits a mirror and lights up the whole room.
Em Schulz: Gasp... It's one thing for him to think that like maybe it was abandoned and like he could stay there for a while but like he has interacted with her. He knows someone's there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh he knows she's in there. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And she knows he knows that. Which means she knows he knows he's interested in like making her disappear.
Christine Schiefer: Something bad. Something bad. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So now she's essentially a target and uh oh it gets worse. Oh my God. Okay. So for a moment she was too afraid to move. Then she starts shouting at him and he ran away. So she called her boss who called the police and they immediately were like "We think that's Malcolm Naden the guy on the run." And they told her "You're in grave danger. Get the fuck out of there." So she moves in with a neighbor. I guess she had a neighbor somewhere probably 1200 acres away...
Em Schulz: 12,001 square feet away.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah exactly. So she moves in with a neighbor umm and as she's collecting her things to move out of the cabin she finds a note on her desk inside her bedroom. A note she's not seen before. The note said only one thing it said "Nice moles."
Em Schulz: Moles.
Christine Schiefer: She had...
Em Schulz: Like on her face?
Christine Schiefer: Some moles on her body... Gasp... And she was known to take a dip in the... Take a little swim in the water outside after her jogs. So...
Em Schulz: That's what I'm talking about with this cockiness. Like he's like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Oh look what I can get away with."
Christine Schiefer: Yep. So she knows now he's either been watching her undress in her room entirely possible 'cause he's clearly been inside her bedroom before.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh and seen her naked. So either she was swimming or either in the shower or who knows what. Umm but she had moles on her body that you would only see if you saw her nude. And so she of course felt sick and violated finding a note like that in your bedroom. Urgh God. So the only con consolation of course was that she was able to get out of there, right? And like survive the incident. But how traumatic is that? Umm detectives essentially outright told her you probably would've been his next victim. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah 1,000%.
Christine Schiefer: He was definitely targeting you, yeah. There was like no doubt. So his DNA of course was once again found at the scene confirming it was him and an extensive search of the entire grounds, 1200 acres turned up nothing. And he escaped and was back on his fucking spree. His run. He apparently worked very hard to cover his tracks. Umm he would sometimes... This is a weird like little throwback to something you said earlier, remove doors from their hinges.
Em Schulz: Oh. Huh. That is weird.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That is really weird. I forgot that was even part of the story when you mentioned it. Then he would go into the home, steal food, clothes, guns, ammo, et cetera, and then replace the door and put it back on its hinges so that people wouldn't even notice that they had been robbed for a few days.
Em Schulz: What? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Until they were like, wait, that's weird. The gun's gone. Or like, these certain clothes of mine are missing. And it was like enough to help him keep going, but not enough that it was so obvious, like...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, he would just steal like some clo some pants and a gun, you know, and people wouldn't necessarily notice right away. So he'd have oftentimes a several days head start.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But the fact that he would take the door off the hinges to rob you so that you didn't notice that he broke, that he picked the lock, that is like...
Em Schulz: The irony. Because he's so unhinged.
Christine Schiefer: So deeply unhinged, he should put one of those hinges on it. Maybe fix a thing or two. Yeah. So in November, 2011, umm, two such break-ins occurred with the doors being removed from their hinges, like new fear unlocked. I guess I didn't know that was even a way of robbing somebody, but here we are, uh, and authorities around the country were on high alert, like for these kind of break-ins specifically. And so when two happened in November of 11, police believed Malcolm was somewhere nearby. So they launched a tactical team into the thick bush and began searching for him in this terrain, which is very wild. Uh, very... Basically they were, how do you put it? Uh, it was an uphill battle for them in that he would know well in advance that they were coming because there was no way to search the bush quietly.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he would have a headstart knowing where they were. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Gotcha. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like they, he had an advantage, I guess I'll say. So they knew he would hear them coming and had the advantage and most likely see them before they saw him. The plants were so thick in this part of the bush that he could have been 10 feet away and they wouldn't have even seen him. Uh, so they had to be very, very thorough. They began finding signs of Malcolm all over the place, uh, like food wrappers, discarded supplies. Then they found a stash of weapons. They found two 22 rifles and a shotgun. And that confirmed their fear that he was also actively armed, you know, and a dangerous person, obviously, to approach. So as they came into a clearing, suddenly a gunshot rang out and one of the officers was hit in the shoulder.
Em Schulz: Oh god. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The other officers laid down around his body to protect him while they radioed for help. And shouted to Malcolm, you know, this is police stop shooting. And the bush was too thick to identify where the shot had even come from. So as they tried to stop the downed officer's bleeding, they also had this double fear that he's gonna start firing at them.
Em Schulz: Right. Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like now they're in this precarious position. Um, but fortunately he disengaged from the whole thing and took the opportunity to escape while their backup arrived. And the injured air or injured officer was airlifted to a hospital. And thankfully the bullet missed his vital organs by millimeters. And he recovered from the...
Em Schulz: It's always by millimeters. It's never by like a big fucking chunk.
Christine Schiefer: It's all, I was just thinking that, I was just thinking that, millimeters.
Em Schulz: It's never by like a foot. It's like, oh, you...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You weren't even close to dying. You're totally chill. It's always, you are on the brink of death.
Christine Schiefer: A millimeter away. This tiny little sliver. Yeah. Yeah. It seems to be that way for some reason. Umm, so the media became obsessed with this story, uh, because the police were so close, right? Like they were in a clearing with him, and he got away. And so news outlets began reporting on him as "an insanely gifted wilderness survivalist who was eluding the police with his hunting and tracking skills." So he, this is when he becomes this kind of like folk hero, right? Like he's somehow miraculously evading capture. They're kind of ignoring the whole part about like how he has to steal bread to survive.
Em Schulz: Which is wild 'cause I immediately, when you hit, you had me at zoo, I was like, is he in the enclosures? Like, that would've been TMZ worthy, which like I'm aware of, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I've not forgotten that this man is a murderer rapist awful man. But like, if you're looking for the sensational part, it's already happened. The fact that it's happening so much later in the story shocks me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think it's more now that they're like, "Hey, remember that guy? He like, he's still on the run."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, I mean, it's been year, it's been so long now, and he's still somehow on the run, and it's just becoming this story of like, wow, he's evading capture over and over and over again. And of course, despite this, like, you know, being a suspect in a murder, an assault case, and a missing, umm, assault case of a minor while we're at it, and a missing woman's case, people start hailing him as this like folk hero to the point that local restaurants are naming burgers and drinks after him. Umm.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: People said they respected him despite his crimes. Like, it's just gross. And so he makes his way across the country, he's breaking into people's homes. Emathy, people start leaving food and supplies out for him.
Em Schulz: Like he's Santa?
Christine Schiefer: Literally a plate of cookies, might as well.
Em Schulz: Literally.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: That's, that's wild. I mean, that's the, let's help him continue to evade the police so he never has to pay for his crimes.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, he murdered a woman next to her two children.
Em Schulz: He...
Christine Schiefer: Like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Em Schulz: Also raped a dead woman while her children were locked in the next room. I mean, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. What the fuck?
Em Schulz: I get that the story is crazy. I get that the story is crazy. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like if it happened today, my TikTok algorithm would not be covering this thing through and through. But...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, we'd all be waiting for the Netflix.
Em Schulz: It's still fucking crazy person.
Christine Schiefer: Netflix special. Yeah. It's really a wild, uh, a wild concept to me. And I guess it's just humanity, I'm sure in the US. I mean, I'm not saying we'd behave any differently as a people. I, I, I guess people just romanticized it and said, you know, let me leave out some supplies and hopefully I can assist him in his travels.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's almost worse than the Ted Bundy girlfriends who are like, oh, I, I wanna sleep with with him. I, I wanna date him. It's like you're helping him.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're actively like, he could do that. He can and probably will do that again.
Em Schulz: Like, you're complicit, you're... Not only complicit you're like almost an accomplice, you're an accomplice in this now.
Christine Schiefer: Man, man. It's just, it's so baffling to me. And so that's kind of why I pointed out earlier too like he overshadows his victims because his name...
Em Schulz: I get it.
Christine Schiefer: Became such a story. You know what I mean? Kind of like Ted Bundy, right? It's like this name becomes such a notorious thing that the people that he left in his wake like kind of just get brushed aside. Umm, and so, you know, we know, and the police knew at this point that, uh, Malcolm was not the master outdoorsman that the news claimed he was. Right. He was breaking into people's homes to sustain himself. And apparently his break-ins were getting sloppier. He probably was cocky, like you said.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In December, 2011, a man called the police when he caught a photo on his home security system. I mean, now we're in 2011. So we've fast forward, I'm sure...
Em Schulz: We have hit ring era.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ring doorbells probably exist. I know, maybe. Umm, and so his break-ins are getting sloppier. In December, 2011, this man catches a photo on his home security system of a man in his house at 9:00 PM holding a flashlight and walking through the house.
Em Schulz: See ya.
Christine Schiefer: Nightmare. Nightmare. Like the fact that this guy already had a security system and everyone was probably like, oh, dad, why do you need a security system inside the house? Like, and then this fucking guy is wandering around with a flashlight, nightmare. So two regular offices responded the next day, because apparently the tactical team already was busy looking for Malcolm somewhere else in the country. So the two "regular officers" like day-to-day officers responded the next day. What they didn't expect when they arrived to the house was that Malcolm would still be inside.
Em Schulz: Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Essentially, this guy with a security camera was not at home, right? So he's seeing someone's in his house, he calls the police, the police show up, and Malcolm is still there alone in the house. And...
Em Schulz: Was it just like he, he needed somewhere to stay and he thought this one will do?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's like squatting. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He's basically squatting and he picked the neighborhood or the, the house and the neighborhood with a indoor camera. Smooth.
Em Schulz: I mean.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Also, like in 2011, like cameras were not that small. Like, you'd probably see it if you looked.
Em Schulz: No, I, so I had a friend, umm, she was the first friend of mine to actually have like any home security stuff. And I remember back in the day being like, "Oh, her family is like rich, rich." Like, I've never seen anyone have any home security anything.
Christine Schiefer: It felt like such a luxury, right? Like it still does sometimes like to be able to rig up your house like that.
Em Schulz: You know how everyone, like in the early 2000s had like a mini TV in their like kitchen or like, they had like a mini TV somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, yes. Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Somewhere unnecessary, like...
Christine Schiefer: All the rage.
Em Schulz: And it never got watched. It was just like to have it. Umm, but it was, I remember them having like four of them in their kitchen and it was continuously monitor monitoring the cameras because it was like part of the system they purchased.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: And I remember being like, I remember being like, anytime you, I went into the kitchen for like a snack, I would see it and I was like, oh my God. Like I could see everything in this house right now.
Christine Schiefer: That is so creepy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It was so, it was just the perimeter of the house, but it was still like, oh, I could see what's happening on every side of the house right now.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: That's so weird.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so it was just outdoors. Okay, that's good. At least.
Em Schulz: Just outdoors. But I remember like, that was 20, well, that was maybe a few years earlier, but the, the monitors themselves, like you can't not see them. So like, this guy would've definitely seen a monitor.
Christine Schiefer: That's that's what I'm wondering, like, yeah, I imagine in just a residential home, having a, a security system camera set up inside, you'd think if you were like a master fugitive, you'd like clock it, but I guess not.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I guess. I guess he was just riding high on his zoo escapades and all that. I have no idea.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But police arrive thinking like, oh, we're just gonna see if there's any evidence of this break-in. No, Malcolm's still fucking inside.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So they show up and they see a rifle sitting outside on the porch, and Malcolm began to approach the rifle. Uh, he's like kind of gambling the risk because now the officers are drawing their weapons on him, and so he pauses and instead makes a run for the back of the house. And they...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: A little stupid bunny. Like he's...
Christine Schiefer: He's like a little bunny.
Em Schulz: Every every opportunity you've talked about in this story so far, he has always chosen to run. Always.
Christine Schiefer: It is like Skittle, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's worked for what it's worth. Like it's worked so far somehow. But, so this time he makes a run for the back of the house, and they didn't fire because he was unarmed and was retreating, and so they secured the rifle and called for backup. But by the time backup arrived, Malcolm was long gone.
Em Schulz: Yep. Some Bonnie and Clyde shit.
Christine Schiefer: Once again he has... It really is, it feels, it feels like, no wonder it's sensational, you know, it's like, it feels ridiculous that he's pulling this off so many times. So they go inside the house finally, of course he's gone by now, but they do discover that Malcolm had been acting very strangely inside the house, umm, very erratically. He had used a knife to slash the curtains and some clothes and bedding throughout the home, and they couldn't really understand why. They also noted that he spent hours on the computer watching porn on this guy's computer.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-Hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then it seemed like maybe he was frustrated and he was like lashing out, and that's why there were just knife marks everywhere. Um, they just, they hoped that this was a sign that he was kind of falling apart, right? That his like journey was coming to an end. And they were right because not long afterward, the police used trail cameras to monitor nearby wooded areas. And that is when they spotted Malcolm on the cameras making his way to a farmhouse. So March 22nd, 2012, authorities organized a tactical squad and approached this house at night. And when they saw smoke coming from a fire in the hearth, they confirmed that someone was indeed inside the house. So they contacted the homeowner who said, "Nope, I'm not home, and nobody should be home." And they said, this is our guy. So must be an awkward conversation to tell the homeowner. Well, a SWAT team's about to break down your door. So, sorry.
Em Schulz: Like do you ask permission at that point, or do you just say, "We're going in."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, oh, well, someone's like roasting marshmallows in there. Not, not you?
Em Schulz: It's like...
Christine Schiefer: No, not me.
Em Schulz: If you were there, I guarantee your neighbors can smell toast as we speak, right?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Do you... I feel like I would just stop making toast if I lived... I'd be like, I'm too paranoid for this. Like, if I smell toast anywhere...
Em Schulz: Ma'am are you in the house? Question number one.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Question number two, do you have a toaster? Do you have an oven? Do you have a stove? Do you have a microwave?
Christine Schiefer: Is it in use right now?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Is it faulty?
Christine Schiefer: Imagine if...
Em Schulz: Because we might need to call the fire department.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine if he had to microwave his bread. It's just like the saddest thing ever. Anyway.
Em Schulz: He seems very into the hot bread situation, so.
Christine Schiefer: He's into the hot bread. It's a little weird. Yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: He'll do what he has to.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess so. Umm, so they kept him at this farmhouse, right? Or they, they notice that he is there, um, and he has a fire going. And so they begin closing in on this farmhouse.
Em Schulz: For his bread. Yeah, there's a bread. He's toasting a bread in the fireplace probably. And so on their way through the pasture surrounding the house, they were almost, their cover was almost blown because a herd of cattle charged them and a bull.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I could just see a bunch of...
Christine Schiefer: Like, it's like a comedy of errors.
Em Schulz: Policemen just running away from the cows.
Christine Schiefer: Literally like in tactical gear, right? Like the most intense.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know, like a SWAT team. And then this cow just comes out of the dark and like attacks like.
Em Schulz: Like the navy seals versus two cows.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Versus some farm animals. Yeah. So that literally a, a herd of cattle and a bull charged them. But thankfully they were able to make it through the field and get to the back of the house. And Malcolm came outside at this point, an officer shouted at him. Malcolm tried to dash inside and escape out the front door. But he was, of course, like we've all seen on Criminal Minds or SVU intercepted by another police officer who's at the front door and they restrain him on the ground. They ask his name. He said he was Malcolm Naden. And one officer remembers that Malcolm Naden seemed "relieved" to be arrested. And they asked him, "Are you tired?" And he said, "Wouldn't you be?"
Em Schulz: Honestly yeah, I would've been tired a long time ago.
Christine Schiefer: I'm tired right now if anyone's wondering.
Em Schulz: Just hearing it I'm exhausted. I'm gonna take a nap after this.
Christine Schiefer: This is really exhausting. So in custody, Malcolm initially only confessed to the robberies he'd committed, but requested to remain silent regarding Christie and Lateesha. But eventually the detectives provided him with writing materials, told him he could use it to answer any questions he wanted, provide any information at his leisure. And he ultimately wrote this letter that I was mentioning earlier that confessed to every charge, including Lateesha's abduction and murder. Umm, it was 25 pages, so I guess I was spot on with, with the dozens, not the hundreds.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, and apparently when he, so he gave details of like what had actually happened, umm, in all these circumstances, because like, remember, Lateesha's family still has no idea what happened to her. Like she just vanished.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so he confesses to everything. Apparently when Lateesha was leaving on her errand in early 2005, he stopped her in front of their grandparents' house and asked if she could give him a ride to the beach on her way to run her errand 'cause he wanted to go fishing. So she let him in the car, and on the drive, she brought up the assault allegations against him about...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The 12-year-old girl that he had molested. And, umm, he was her family member. And so she wanted to confront him about it and asked for the truth and said, is this something you really did? You know, like, what is going on? Apparently he was enraged and defensive and he grabbed Lateesha by the throat and strangled her to death right there in the car.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. For bringing, for bringing it up. He then took over the driver's seat and brought her to a riverbank where he dismembered her and dumped her body in a shallow grave.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And he later, he later strangled Kristy to death, like I mentioned, in the same fashion. That's how we know that he approached her from behind while she was brushing her teeth.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, beyond Malcolm's like outright confession, there was also tons of physical evidence linking him to the crimes. And, umm, that included DNA, he left his DNA on the collar of Kristy's shirt when he strangled her, his fingerprints and DNA were discovered at multiple break-ins while he was a fugitive, uh, the rifle he abandoned, uh, was matched to the rifle that shot the officer in that clearing. And so all of this evidence stacking on top of itself, umm, plus the confessions, uh, brought this seven year chase to uh, just an abrupt and simple closure.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Seven years this guy was on the run. So Naden faced a number of other charges in addition to Lateesha's disappearance and Kristy's murder, uh, including that assault of the minor from 2004 plus the shooting of the officer. He was ultimately sentenced to life in prison, which is apparently what he had actively hoped for. Uh.
Em Schulz: Why, like he thought he couldn't control himself or something?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he... Yeah he said basically in, what was that phrase? Like, in no, in no uncertain terms that once he said something like, once you kill, you're gonna kill again.
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: You've broken down a barrier and you can't stop yourself. So it sounds like he knew that that would be his life forever if he wasn't put in jail, like, you know, being on the run. And it sounded like he was tired of that. So when he was handed down the sentence, he said to the judge, "Thank you, your Honor."
Em Schulz: You're welcome. I'm so glad we cleared that up.
Christine Schiefer: You are welcome. Right. Wow. So polite of me. So when Malcolm described his crimes, he said that once he killed Lateesha, he could never go back to the person he was before. Uh, he described feeling zero remorse, no emotion connected to his crime. Like, he just was like, I didn't feel anything. And it, this like intellectually really confused him. Umm, he said he couldn't understand why he felt nothing when he shot the officer or killed the women. Umm, he didn't understand why he continued to feel nothing. Like nothing could make him feel guilty. Uh, and he told detectives I would kill again. I'm sure of it. So yeah.
Em Schulz: Again, I appreciate the confidence.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Some candor.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Some candor there. Yeah. You know like...
Em Schulz: It's almost like sometimes, sorry. It feels sometimes like serial killers are almost doing things to force an emotion to come out of themselves. Like it feels, I feel like so many times.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: We've talked about, like, I don't think like they would even be aware of that. I don't actually think this is a real tactic, but it comes across a lot as like, you're so desperate to feel something that you're doing the most extreme thing possible to like con, to get something outta yourself.
Christine Schiefer: To test yourself. Almost like, I mean, I remember with BTK when he said, oh, I would never rape somebody that's so reprehensible. And it's like you strangled a child or you like.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And did...
Christine Schiefer: A child to death.
Em Schulz: You did perform sexual acts nearby a child too.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And were sexually... Exactly. So it's just like bizarre to me. I'm like, I think there's just this like block, Lego block missing that just like doesn't...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Connect. And a lot of these guys, like BTK and this guy are very analytical, like self analytical, you know, but they're also so grandiose in their own heads. They probably just love to think about themselves. But...
Em Schulz: Maybe, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And Ed, Ed Kemper too was so willing to talk to police. Like, he was like, let's get to the bottom of this guys. Why do I wanna, why did I cut my mom's head off? Let's figure tht out.
Em Schulz: They're trying to like ignite ignite a feeling in them or ignite a, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe, yeah. Or maybe that's the most they can access, right? Like.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The most thrill they can access without any sort of...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Empathy to fall back on. It's, Ooh, it's really chilling. Umm, so he's finally convicted. His victim's families are, you know, at least they have a little bit of closure, but for years, Lateesha's family wasn't sure they'd ever find out what happened to her. They were just living with this like emptiness. And her children were so little that... There were four, she had four children, very young, and they would always ask why their mom left them. Like they didn't understand. Nobody knew what had happened. And so Malcolm did tell police where to find Leticia's remains. But an extensive search did not find any clues whatsoever. But in 2012 one of her daughters said in an interview that the family went to the place where Lateesha's car was found every year to do like a little ceremony, write notes, release balloons.
Em Schulz: Um, and she said, we all go there because that's the only place we've got to remember when it was the last time we saw mom. And it's like the riverbank where she was disposed of. I mean, it's terrible. And so finally, thank God, one of Lateesha's bones was discovered by a passerby out for a walk in 2016, and this was over a decade after she had been murdered. Soon they would find more of her remains, and those were recovered. And finally Lateesha was able to be interred with a traditional indigenous burial, and they were able to, you know, pay her the respect that they wanted.
Christine Schiefer: Um, her mother said the discovery brought the family some closure saying, "It's a long time coming, but I can now lay my daughter to rest where she deserves to be." And Lateesha's father said, "During the funeral, I was looking at the grandkids and thinking, now they've got somewhere they can go for Mother's Day, birthdays and Christmas and all that." So there's like an actual...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Place where they were able to memorialize her. That's not, you know, a dump site.
Em Schulz: Where she... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: That's nice.
Christine Schiefer: Just to even think that the funeral took place over 10 years after she was killed, like the 10 years of just being in limbo, like that is horrifying. So Malcolm's fugitive spree remains one of the most famous criminal cases in Australian history. Umm, but as we've talked about, of course, his actions ended up overshadowing the lives of his victims. Umm, and this, as I sort of alluded to, but worth noting again, umm, this is sort of just a terrible reality for indigenous people all around the world. Umm, it should not come as a shock to anybody. Umm, they face the missing and murdered indigenous women and people crisis. Umm, and just for some stats, a 2012 report by the Australian Institute of Criminology found that indigenous women in Australia are six times more likely to be murdered than non-indigenous women, and up to 80 times more likely to experience violence.
Christine Schiefer: I know there are similar statistics out there, umm, for, for those in North America. Umm, and there are episodes I've covered on that as well that you can search for on the website, umm as the public focused on and like even named fucking cheeseburgers after this guy, right? And like lunch specials and like left cookies out for him or whatever. Uh, basically Kristy and Lateesha just kind of faded into a statistic more or less, you know, it's just, um, he became this like legend and they just kind of vanished, uh, into the background, which is just especially sad. But of course, their families and friends keep the memory of both women alive. Umm, they were loving and they were kind, they were phenomenal mothers, beloved daughters. Uh, the lives they shared with their family and friends, umm, you know, still matter. And, uh, they are definitely worth talking about.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm. Definately.
Christine Schiefer: Separately from this guy, but definitely telling the guy story, umm, they shouldn't just be like a throwaway mention, you know? So.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it seems like that's how it's been covered a lot. Like when they sensationalize these kind of stories for that crime show and the family begged them not to include the details of their daughters assault and murder and they did it anyway. It's just like, there's such a lack of respect and care, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so anyway, that's the story of Malcolm Naden, which is apparently quite a household name over there, which I did not realize.
Em Schulz: I had not heard of it before. Yeah. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: He's a, he's a big one.
Em Schulz: Definitely umm, an interesting one. Sensational one.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's, it's dark and I mean, it's dark, but it's also wacky, right? It's like, I mean, you're right, this would be all over TikTok nowadays. Like this guy living in the ceilings, you know, it like, sounds like a horror movie, but like he's on the run. Like I can see why it got picked up, but yeah.
Em Schulz: I can see why it got picked up too. It's still, it still doesn't, but.
Christine Schiefer: Like at what cost, right? No.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. Good one. Good. You know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I never know what to say. Well done. Christine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Thank you Emathy.
Em Schulz: Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Wait until you see me open a banana, then I, then you'll really be impressed.
Em Schulz: Then game over. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, what are you doing for the rest of the day? Hanging out with your little banana eater?
Christine Schiefer: I sure am. Umm, yeah, in a few minutes, well, after our after hours, I'm gonna head downstairs and, umm, show off my skills. Uh, grab a little banana, grab a tomato, see if I can maybe cut that open.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, but I actually had an idea for our after hours.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I was thinking maybe we could take one of those online psychic tests for funsies.
Em Schulz: Oh gosh. You are so obsessed with me being psychic.
Christine Schiefer: Yay let's... I think it's hilarious. I think it's, I think we're onto something is a what Im saying.
Em Schulz: I am Raven, it's, I don't know if you know that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You are Raven. That's what, that's what we've discovered.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so I wanna make you take a psychic test online with me. So we'll do that in the after hours for Patreon.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. I can predict now. I won't actually be very good, but then does that mean I'm psychic or not when I'm right. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait a minute.
Em Schulz: Paradox.
Christine Schiefer: So you win either way. You win either way. Yeah. Good job.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, uh, if you would like your last tries at seeing us, uh, on tour, we only have a few shows left, so please come if you would like to see on the rocks before we start a whole new tour.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And uh, you can join us on Patreon to see all of our silliness over there and drink some water. You thirsty little rats.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: And.
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
