[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hi Em.
Em Schulz: Hello.
Christine Schiefer: How are you?
Em Schulz: I am well, how are you?
Christine Schiefer: I'm great. Well you went like this to me. Like go, fly, so I'm trying to...
Em Schulz: You're riffin, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Riff it, riff it.
Em Schulz: Well, we both know I usually just jump right in, I'm trying to be more conscientious, more situationally aware.
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: I know. I should tell my therapist.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I will. We're having drinks later.
Em Schulz: Who? You are meeting up with my therapist?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'll tell her that.
Em Schulz: Yikes. She is gonna fire me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh don't worry, we talked about all of it.
Em Schulz: I am well, for someone who is hungry and sleepy.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Well, I was almost hungry and sleepy when I came up here, but instead I had a cup of coffee and a microwave quesadilla, so I'm ready to party.
Em Schulz: What flavor was the quesadilla?
Christine Schiefer: I put some shredded Mexican blend cheese and sliced up some tomatoes.
Em Schulz: Oh, you made it?
Christine Schiefer: I said it was in a microwave, yeah. I put it in a microwave for 30 seconds.
Em Schulz: I know, but there have like frozen quesadillas.
Christine Schiefer: Oh do they? I have no idea. I always thought of a microwave quesadilla as you just put a tortilla with cheese on it.
Em Schulz: Aha, like the nachos with cheese when we were kids.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, microwave nachos right.
Em Schulz: Or the chips with cheese, yeah, yeah. Interesting, interesting, tomatoes? Do you put those in pre or post microwave?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, definitely post.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Not a hot tomato kind of person, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-mmh, I do understand.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, yeah.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, it is the day after trash day and every neighbor decided they're gonna do a fun little synchronized bring the trash bin up the gravel driveway. So let me close my window 'cause it's beautiful out and I thought, what a nice spring breeze?
Em Schulz: I can't hear it to be fair.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, it is like so outrageously loud. Okay well, fine, hopefully, the gravel driveway, which by the way is like eight feet, so I don't know how many times they're going back and forth.
Em Schulz: They're actually having the slowest race on earth, is what they're doing right now.
Christine Schiefer: They might be, they might be doing the full synchronized dance routine, I'm not really sure. But I do apologize if anyone can hear it. But Gio's sleeping next to the open window and I just can't bear it, I can't bear it. I can't close it.
Em Schulz: Oh, that sweet little angel puppy face.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Oh and he loves the sound of the gravel, he loves it.
Christine Schiefer: He probably loves the sound of the trash. He knows, he knows what's in there.
Em Schulz: The smell of the trash, it's a whole 4D experience.
Christine Schiefer: He loves the stuff. He loves it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Christine, I gotta know and I gotta know now. What is the reason why you drink?
Christine Schiefer: Mmhh. Great question, umm, I had therapy again today. I don't know why I keep scheduling it right before we record. Uh...
Em Schulz: That's wicked, fucking bold.
Christine Schiefer: It is, it is.
Em Schulz: 'Cause what if you have like a revelation? And you start...
Christine Schiefer: I did.
Em Schulz: Oh?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Take it away.
Christine Schiefer: Well, okay. So first of all, because I don't know what people are saying about the book, if anything, or if they even give two shits, but that book, I finished that book I was talking about where I was like saying it was changing my whole perception of life perspective. And it did. It really like changed my life. I feel like it really resonated with me. I will add, I think if I read it like a year ago, it probably wouldn't have like, I would have been like, okay, interesting. And like moved on.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So if people read it and are like, huh, I think seriously, it was just the timing. Second of all, near the end, he kind of lost me. It got a little like...
Em Schulz: Too woo woo.
Christine Schiefer: A little bit. And also I felt, yeah, I would say maybe too woo woo. And also I think I, he didn't really address some of the issues that I thought would, uh, like, you know, it's like, Oh, throughout life, you know, bad things will happen. Sure. Like your dog might die and like, you might get in a car, a fender bender. And I'm like, yeah, but also people get like murdered and raped and stuff. So I feel like there was just a lack of kind of, um, really addressing like big problems in life and more just like, you know, you might be sad because you got dumped and it's like, okay, yeah, but I might be sad. Cause like my, my family died in a plane crash, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it kind of didn't really wrap up the way I had hoped, but it was good. I feel like it spoke to me. I would give it like four out of five stars. Um...
Em Schulz: That's pretty good for something that didn't totally speak to you. Or is it because like four out of five of the book spoke to you?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, that's more what it was. It was like the last couple of chapters I was like, okay, I was hoping he'd like bring it home, you know? But for me, and maybe he did for some people, but for me, I'm like, there's a lot of shit that I felt like kind of didn't get addressed, which I don't know. So I might be whatever, but I brought that back to my therapist. And then today I was just like, I don't know. I guess I just had a revelation that this is, Oh God, why am I talking about this on the podcast? I don't know. Um, you know, that feeling, I don't know if anyone else has it, but I feel like I'm always a different person depending on where I am and who I'm around. We've, we've talked about this like, and I think it's just...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Like a chameleon.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just like completely changing. And it got to a point a few years ago where I realized like, I don't even know what I really like. Like, do I just say I like things cause it sounds good or cause I think I should like it. Like even music, just basic stuff. And so I'm on kind of this journey to be like, what's...
Em Schulz: Who is, who is Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Well, who is that? Who's me? And I think that's why that book spoke to me too. Cause it's like, you're not all the jumbled thoughts in your head. Like you're separate. You're like...
Em Schulz: Okay, so it still serves a purpose.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, definitely. It definitely did. So anyway, now I'm on a journey to find myself. Ha ha ha ha ha. But, but actually.
Em Schulz: Isn't it funny how the selfhelp book isn't even part of the journey yet. It's like, oh shit, I just needed that to crack the window open.
Christine Schiefer: This is literally it. It's like, oh wait. Oh, now I have to do the work, which I feel like it is uhh.
Em Schulz: I thought by the time the book was over, the work was over.
Christine Schiefer: It would have fixed me.
Em Schulz: No, it hasn't even begun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's one of those things where it's like, wow, it's like a painful lifelong journey, I guess.
Em Schulz: Life.
Christine Schiefer: But you know, I'm on it. I'm trying, I'm trying. And I'm trying to figure out what food I really like. And I don't like hot tomatoes. So maybe we can write that down. That's a good start.
Em Schulz: Hey, we learned something today. All of us.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. I keep going into these weird, deep, like therapy talks. But why do you drink, Em?
Christine Schiefer: I really don't like hot tomatoes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Never have. I did know that about myself without having to read.
Christine Schiefer: Does anyone? Okay. But sincere question, folks. I'm not going to criticize you because Em and I both like kind of weird stuff sometimes. But does anyone really like hot tomatoes? Sound off...
Em Schulz: I mean, Italians?
Christine Schiefer: Sound off in the comments below.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. What you said. I think Italians might. At least the sauce version.
Christine Schiefer: In what concept? Well, okay. But you don't like tomato sauce?
Em Schulz: No. I don't like any red sauce.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, oh, oh. Oh. I just meant like, I don't like a sliced tomato being hot.
Em Schulz: I know what you meant. I know. But I, but I decided to raise you, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Raise the bar up a little bit.
Em Schulz: Raise the bar.
Christine Schiefer: What about, what about tomato soup?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, we talked about this. I love a tomato... That's the only soup I like, actually.
Em Schulz: That's just, I mean, I never really liked it for the taste. And then I thought one day I'll grow into it. But before I could get to that point in my life, I started getting incredible acid reflux problems.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. They were done a lot. Good point. Not even worth it.
Em Schulz: So I didn't even get a chance to become friends with her.
Christine Schiefer: I'm honestly glad.
Em Schulz: It's like we were frenemies. I thought maybe when we get older and we mature a little bit, we'd become like maybe friends, but then she moved away.
Christine Schiefer: I was going to say, she moved, she moved across the ocean. It's just not going to happen for you. That's fine. I think that's probably for the best. She was going to damage you, your heart, literally.
Em Schulz: She, you're right. She was going to be toxic no matter what. So maybe the relationship wasn't meant to be.
Christine Schiefer: Very acidic.
Em Schulz: Not helpful because also bad for my acid reflux. I just think it's yummier. So it's more worth the risk is, um, I'd love a cream sauce. I love a lemon sauce. So Italian food, if you happen to be like an Italian who's making me something from scratch because you saw me walk down the street, I will not be fully enjoying anything based with red sauce. Fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Take note, Italians who see Em coming down the street and have decided to...
Em Schulz: With a full kitchen on your back.
Christine Schiefer: Whip up a little zuppo. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I love a chicken cutlet covered in some sort of cream or lemon sauce. I like a piccata, I like a francese.
Christine Schiefer: I might vomit, even just at the word cutlet.
Em Schulz: Scallopini, you know?
Christine Schiefer: It's so bad.
Em Schulz: Anyway, uh, no, I, I've always known I don't like hot tomatoes, but I do love a cold tomato. And a room temperature tomato is fine.
Christine Schiefer: Very interesting.
Em Schulz: Um, so I guess that's why I drink.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wow. You know what? It's, I love when we both bring like heavy hitters to the table. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Thank you. Yeah. We gotta, you know, keep each other equal. I guess.
Christine Schiefer: We do. Balance it out.
Em Schulz: Um, I, and you know what's so weird. And I hope this, this rolls onto you a little bit is, um, I woke up today. This does not happen often. I don't know if it's hormonal. I don't know if it's medical and I need to see a doctor immediately, but I woke up today and I went, today's going to be a good day.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I know. So I hope that is universal. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I know you're not going to listen, but I read so many selfhelp books. Can I say something? And you don't have to listen to me, but if anyone else wants to follow this advice, feel free. And I, I hate giving people advice when they're like not asking for it. So I apologize. Take it or leave it. But one cool trick that I learned is when I, cause I also rarely have those kind of moments. When it does happen, I make a note like in a planner or just a journal or my notes app on my phone. And then I kind of see like what the pattern is. You know, it's like, Oh, did I like...
Em Schulz: Did anything change or were you... It was just your brain?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for me, I didn't really follow my own advice and I just forgot to do it. But in general, I feel like it's, and usually it's not like when I wake up or it's like a different, I use it in different contexts, but I think like with something like this, when you wake up and you're like, I'm in a good mood, it's like, huh, put it in your calendar. See, like, what's the deal with that? It's a random Tuesday. Did you have a really good dream last night? Did you eat some cold tomatoes before bed? I don't know.
Em Schulz: When I was younger, I used to actually convince myself, which now in hindsight, maybe it was some sort of just manifesting or just like really summoning whatever it took to make it real. But when I was younger, I would wake up in the morning and I could actually just think to myself, today's going to be a great day and then it would be. So I mean, it is the power of positivity.
Christine Schiefer: That's it. Cause I used to do that. Actually, that's also kind of what that book is about. So fun fact, but, um, where it's like, why would you feel bad about, like, why would you feel negative about things? Just be like positive. And I'm like, okay, to an extent I do love that to a certain extent.
Em Schulz: To an extent, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: If my family dies in a plane crash, not gonna feel so good, you know?
Em Schulz: Today's one of those weird ones though, where I didn't have to convince myself something else told me. So there's like that calmness of, oh, it's not even in my control. It's just going to be a good day.
Christine Schiefer: I guess I'm going to force the pattern onto you, which is that I'm here.
Em Schulz: That's fine. Hey, you know what? I will write that down as one of the things that happened today.
Christine Schiefer: I see you a lot though, and, uh, you don't seem to have that feeling very often. So I don't know if I'm really the issue.
Em Schulz: I don't know. A lot of times that I see you, I have to be on a stage. So um.
Christine Schiefer: That is true. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Although I will say, um, uh, I had my therapy yesterday.
Christine Schiefer: Congrats.
Em Schulz: Jordan says, hi. We have been talking extensively...
Christine Schiefer: I know. We're meeting later. Don't worry about it.
Em Schulz: Well, then you know this, what I'm about to say is that we have been speaking extensively on whether or not she can... Girl.
Christine Schiefer: Just drink some kombucha.
Em Schulz: I think you just wanted the attention. That's what it felt like.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like a toddler. Coughs. Everyone look at me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, her and I have been talking about whether or not she can listen to the podcast, which I love that...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: She, she's asked, but apparently I did not sound enthusiastic enough that she felt like it was actually consensual.
Christine Schiefer: So you think she's going to her therapist and being like, no, but like, here's the tone of voice, which my client used.
Em Schulz: Probably, apparently there's like, they have, she has like meetings with other people, with other therapists that like, I guess she works in like a co-op in some way. I guess someone said, oh, well there's someone who has a client that does something along the lines of what we do. I don't know if it's podcasting. I don't know if it's like...
Christine Schiefer: What if it was me?
Em Schulz: Can you imagine?
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, wait, we go to the same practice?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But I guess that person lets, uh, that person has a client who lets them in more on their career. And I am not doing that yet. And so I guess, uh, Jordan was like, oh, well, you know, they get to listen or they get to engage.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: I'm like, I get it girl. And like, I did say that she was welcome to listen, but you know, it was not enthusiastic enough.
Christine Schiefer: Also Jordan, do you know how long the episodes are? I feel like Jordan's like, like saying, oh, I'm going to listen. And then doesn't realize that these are not like normal podcast length. Like they're crazy long.
Em Schulz: Also, like how embarrassing would it be if my own therapist decides that she has to turn it off immediately? Cause she's just not having fun.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Yeah. If you're like, oh, what did you think? And then she's like, oh, it was fine. Like, oh, that would be so bad. Oh yeah. Nevermind. Don't listen, Jordan. I can't stand it. I can't even stand the thought.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, it makes me so uncomfortable, but I don't know why, because I'm sure she, she's, she's a homie. Like she's got that good energy. Like she would have...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, because we don't want her to reject us.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Yeah. What if we said something? Well, I did say, I was like, what if you judge me afterwards? Like, what if you know too much, you know? But then that's your kind of your job.
Christine Schiefer: But that's kind of the point, right?
Em Schulz: Maybe I, maybe I have cards I'm holding close to my chest that I don't even know about, you know? 'Cause I am pretty open on this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that are getting publicly, publicly spoken to everybody, but not your therapist. I love that idea. Like, this is too private. You can listen to what I tell you in secret, but you can't listen to this public platform, it's too private.
Em Schulz: I think because the way that as a therapist, she does a really good job of like calling me out right away. And like, I feel like here is a platform where we all laugh about our trauma and she does not.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she's not going to like that part. Oh, okay. Well then, well, maybe don't listen Jordan. I again, I feel like it's strike three.
Em Schulz: I don't know if she'll like it or not, but it's not in her character. It's not in her character. And so I think the fact that we're like, ha ha ha, did our parents love us? Ha ha ha.
Christine Schiefer: LOL.
Em Schulz: I think she'd be like, let's unpack that. Let's unpack that. And I don't want that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. And I go like, you know what? Let's not. Okay Jordan? Cause I don't see you with a microphone. Bye bye.
Em Schulz: Jordan, you're in my house now. We don't talk about that.
Christine Schiefer: Jordan, I'll see you at cocktail hour later. Okay. Bye.
Em Schulz: Anyway. That's why I drink because I would, I in theory have no problem with my therapist listening, but also the second that an invitation was requested...
Christine Schiefer: Presented itself. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what, there's something I'm apparently terrified of her finding out, but maybe it's that I just don't want her to hate the show. And then thus hate me as a client and be like, Oh, this fucking person has to come through.
Christine Schiefer: This annoying person. Yeah. It just seems like a lot of pressure to put on someone. So I'm with you. I don't think it's necessarily the best idea.
Em Schulz: At some point it will be a yes, but I don't, I don't know when it will be an enthusiastic yes.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe once...
Em Schulz: So far, it's a sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe once we solve all our trauma, then she can listen.
Em Schulz: Oh without my therapist. Great.
Christine Schiefer: Well, just...
Em Schulz: Oh no, I see what you're saying. I...
Christine Schiefer: Once we're fixed, then the show can be listened to by people who are here to fix us.
Em Schulz: So she has to do her job first before she can hear my job.
Christine Schiefer: Right, that's her reward.
Em Schulz: Aha, okay.
Christine Schiefer: World's worst reward ever to listen to a free podcast that's 16 hours long. Anyway...
Em Schulz: You know, it will make me rip my own eyeballs out and my ears is when, uh, next session she plays this for me.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's not a funny joke. I don't like that joke. Make it stop.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'll make it stop by telling you, um, a spooky story Christine. Um, by the way, I know you're drinking some booch, but you know, I don't want to, I don't want to let the tradition down just yet. I still have an LD in hand...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And I got to tell all my thirsty little rats drink some water.
Christine Schiefer: I even brought up, uh...
Em Schulz: Did you, you're going to be, uh, uh, a TLR today.
Christine Schiefer: I'm going to be a TLR and look at this big foot sticker.
Em Schulz: Oh my goodness. A big foot on a big cup.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: All right. Glug, glug everyone.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: To know that that's some people's one weekly reminder to hydrate themselves.
Christine Schiefer: It's mine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm not even joking. Nobody has ever tells me to drink water because when my phone does it, I get so angry even though I told my phone to tell me.
Em Schulz: If someone knows how to like isolate sound bits and turn them into like, like a sound for your phone, like an alarm sound.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I do.
Em Schulz: Oh. Well then we should, is there a way to broadcast that to everybody where they all have access to it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'll call an Amber alert and then instead of that, [vocalization] it'll just be like you talking.
Em Schulz: I meant if someone wanted to hear, like if, if for some reason someone out there needed to hear.
Christine Schiefer: Like they needed the vocal.
Em Schulz: Drink some water, you thirsty little rats, and they could attach it to their own timers.
Christine Schiefer: To an alarm. Yeah, yeah. I can make that happen. Maybe that can be a Patreon perk. Seriously.
Em Schulz: I do like that.
Christine Schiefer: You get to download. Because I know some podcasts, including my other one, give an MP3 of the theme song as a ringtone.
Em Schulz: Lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Um, as a Patreon perk. So why don't we do that? We'll make a little, uh, thirsty little rat sound for Patreon.
Em Schulz: Oh, I love that. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Eva, please don't forget, 'cause I will.
Em Schulz: By the way, happy belated. It was Eva's birthday earlier this week.
Christine Schiefer: I know, our Pisces!
Em Schulz: Yaay.
Christine Schiefer: Our little fish.
Em Schulz: Our little fish. Oh, maybe that's why. Okay. So recently, okay. Yeah. This is my last story. And then I'll, I'll go into this. Uh, Chris, Christine was there as a witness to the fact that Eva...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, yes.
Em Schulz: Somehow like missed a whole chunk of childhood and never experienced the little red cellophane lucky fortune fish where?
Christine Schiefer: You guys know what we're talking about, right? Like, okay. Megan, can you put a poll? I'm giving people homework, but Megan, can you put a poll? Cause I'm curious.
Em Schulz: Cause you also put a picture on the screen so people can just see it right now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Jack, your homework is to put a picture of the fish.
Em Schulz: Uh, but no, if you, if you, it was this, like, it was like in the carnival machines and stuff as a kid.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Like a fall festival might have it as like a free prize.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was like the cheapest prize you could ever give a kid. And they thought it was amazing. It was the perfect, like, I don't know what the economical terms are, but like, like some sort of supply and demand phrase, but the fact that it was so cheap and it was so amazing and incredible to children that they had to have one, it was like the perfect product.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like whoever invented that I hope they retired as a billionaire up into the mountains and were like, I've done my deed for the world.
Em Schulz: I hope. I also hope so. Um, so, uh, no, they were like these red fish shaped pieces of cellophane and based on your hand, which I still don't know the science of it. I think it was just based on heat. However it sat in your hand, whether it curled up or it laid flat or however it moved.
Christine Schiefer: Or like if the tail goes up.
Em Schulz: Yes. Was supposed to tell you something about yourself. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so it moves in your hand, which was always the magical part, but it's just some sort of basic, I'm sure some basic physics.
Em Schulz: With the wind, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The wind, it just moves on your hand. And so Eva had never seen one and Em and I were like delighted to watch her discover it for the first time. And so, yeah, I guess she is a little, our lucky fish. She's our lucky fish. Eva is.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Eva.
Christine Schiefer: That's so cute.
Em Schulz: For Halloween can you just dress up as one of those fish? That would be...
Christine Schiefer: Well, she has, uh, intimated that she might get a tattoo of the lucky fish. So.
Em Schulz: That's true. Yeah. We've really, uh, you know, the illusion of, of a world with no cellophane fish has been shattered for her. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Sorry Eva, you're in the real world now.
Em Schulz: If only that was how easy the matrix was. Neo, stick your hand out and we'll see if you're in luck.
Christine Schiefer: Blue pill or red fish. Yeah. Just, just hold still.
Em Schulz: Christine, I have, um, a classic story for you today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: And by classic, I mean like an old school ghost story, which I'm very excited about. I was up until ooh 4 a.m. Doing my notes. You know, it's going to be good when I stay up till 4 a.m.
Christine Schiefer: That's how you know.
Em Schulz: And it is called the King's Tavern. Oooo.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds haunted.
Em Schulz: Was it the sound? Was it the booing?
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't. I'm sorry. I, I know it wasn't, but it could, could be.
Em Schulz: Okay. Like a 1% extra.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like it just boosted it a little bit.
Em Schulz: It elevated the experience.
Christine Schiefer: It sure did. It sure did.
Em Schulz: Um, okay. So this is in, I hope I'm saying it right. Natchez, Mississippi.
Christine Schiefer: Blank stare.
Em Schulz: Cool. Um, I did listen to other people say it and it sounded like Natchez to me, but I don't know if I'm really supposed to enhance the Chez, Nat-chez, you know, but what I can tell you about it instead of how it's pronounced is that it is the oldest settlement on the Mississippi river and the King's Tavern is the oldest standing building in that town.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: So this is currently the oldest standing building in the oldest settlement on the Mississippi river.
Christine Schiefer: Wonderful.
Em Schulz: And it is built out of sundried bricks.
Christine Schiefer: Tomatoes.
Em Schulz: And I know I was...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait, how do you feel about a sundried tomato?
Em Schulz: Absolutely get thrown in the trash.
Christine Schiefer: Agreed.
Em Schulz: Set it on fire. There's just no reason.
Christine Schiefer: Em, we did it. We finally found our tomato common ground.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Em's leaving. Em just literally yeeted the headphones off.
Em Schulz: Oh man, no, a sundried tomato can honestly kiss my ass. Like disgusting.
Christine Schiefer: And then when they leave the end of it, where like the tomato vine was, it's like, now you want to eat me, make me eat a dried up... Like leaf root thing. Get out of here.
Em Schulz: I gotta be honest. Whoever created that can rot. Like it's gross. It's gross. It feels like you're eating a raisin, but it's tomato.
Christine Schiefer: But it's tomato raisin. You're right. It's a tomato raisin. It's literally tomato raisin. That's fucking gross.
Em Schulz: And the fact that you want to put a, a raisin in my pasta.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] I'm gonna get upset.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I just can't even pretend to be on board with that.
Christine Schiefer: One more second and I'm going to snap.
Em Schulz: When other people order it, or if I see them ordering a dish and they don't say no sun... Dried tomatoes, I always hope that they're making, that they forgot to say it.
Christine Schiefer: They're going to be so disappointed when their meal comes.
Em Schulz: I'm like, oh, you fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh you just made a huge, huge mistake.
Em Schulz: And then it's like, it's the table. They do that. They twirl their little fork around in the pasta. They go slurp, slurp, slurp. They're eating it real good. Not, not a one complaint. And I'm like, oh, well, we just can't be friends anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Actually, you're not even there anymore. You've left.
Em Schulz: That's the truth. Um, yeah, the, the only thing I like about a tomato is when it's juicy. So if you're going to take the one quality about it away, right.
Christine Schiefer: Don't make it hot and don't make it dried up. You said it. That's a raisin.
Em Schulz: That's a raisin. And so, uh, anyway, this building was...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is the dumbest fucking show. Jordan, stop listening. I'm so mad at you right now. I'm so mad at you.
Em Schulz: I think Jordan doesn't realize she, she got by proxy a whole other client.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I'm like, I'm meeting with her later. I feel like the more I say it, people are going to be like, is that a real thing? No, I'm just being fucking annoying. And I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: My sessions are all of a sudden going to be her wanting to analyze you. And I'm gonna be like oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're going to be coming to me with some really specific advice and I'm going to be like, that's weird. Where did you come up with that? And you'd be like, nowhere. Just my own head. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Nowhere. Um, uh, yes, King's Tavern is built out of sun dried bricks, but also here's an even more fun fact, according to me and maybe nobody else is that it's also made from recycled wood. And this wood originally came from, uh, the flat river boats that would come down the river to sell goods.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: But then I guess, I don't know. River science. Okay. I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: I do. So I'll help.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, uh, these boats, I guess they could not come back up the river because they were flat bottommed.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. So they basically, they, no, I'm serious.
Em Schulz: I was like, alright asshole.
Christine Schiefer: As a, as a flat bottomed individual, no.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Okay. So we grew up, I grew up on the Ohio river, which feeds into the Mississippi river. Right.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so we learned a lot about, we had to go to tall stacks, which was like the big festival on the river where they had all the steamboats. And we learned at the museum, they have a whole like steamboat set up. You learn about how the boats work and how they shipped goods. And you can still hear barges from my house sometimes for a long time, I thought it was a train and my brother's like, that's not a train. That's a barge. And I was like, uh, fine.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: But anyway, the flat ones, yeah, they go down a certain direction. They like basically get put in the water, you load it up with goodies. And then it's, and by goodies, I mean just like fucking wood or coal or some shit. And then it gets like yeeted down. I don't know why I'm keep saying that word down the river.
Em Schulz: It's like, I'm hanging out with a gen alpha or all of a sudden.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know, right? Look at me go. And then they, but they can't like, they don't have like motors or anything, right. They're just kind of like floating along.
Em Schulz: Drifting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Drifting. Tokyo drifting.
Em Schulz: So but how come they can't come back up the river?
Christine Schiefer: Because the river current flows one way.
Em Schulz: Oh, I didn't know if there was like, they like in my brain, my eight year old understanding of rivers is like, wouldn't you just build a hill or something through it? So that way there would, it could flow another direction or, uh.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think you could like change the way the Mississippi river flows. But I mean, maybe I'm wrong.
Em Schulz: I mean, obviously not, but is there, I, in my mind there was a way where you would like to take a shovel and kind of just dig, dig, dig in a certain area. So the water would flow a different direction as like a little, an offshoot of the real river and you could direct how that.
Christine Schiefer: I just think if you're going to cross like the United States, that's just a lot of...
Em Schulz: That's a fair thing to say.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know what I mean? Like if you're coming from all the way up here, all the way through, it's going to be a long way to try and dig your way back.
Em Schulz: Sometimes I think it's a miracle that I made it past elementary science, but also it makes me really sad for the teachers. I'm like, wow, you must've been struggling at least with me as your student. Or, you didn't care.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, honestly, is this a thing anyone who doesn't live in like a historic river town would ever learn? I don't think so. So I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.
Em Schulz: All right, quickly moving on. Oh wait, no, we can't because we're in the middle of the fun fact. So, uh, so the building was made of sundried bricks and recycled wood from these boats because since the boats couldn't come back up the rivers, the people who were selling the goods on the boat were like, why don't I just add to my profit and then rip the boat apart when I'm done with it and then sell those scraps as wood scraps.
Christine Schiefer: It's reduce reuse recycle. I kind of love it.
Em Schulz: And then I'm like, did they just like walk all the way back? What'd you do?
Christine Schiefer: They take a boat, like a different boat or like a steamboat or a train. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Because, okay. Anyway, we could talk about this forever because I, my brain won't let...
Christine Schiefer: You want to? I'm ready. Let's do it.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay, so, um, anyway, that's the fun fact. It's made of old boat. And in 1769 they say that this, the original structure here was built 1769, which in US terms, that's an old fucking building.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's not even in US terms. Right?
Em Schulz: Well, it's Mississippi.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but it hasn't even become the US.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh yes. Yeah, totally. But I mean like for us to even have like history of this land is...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's pretty old.
Em Schulz: That goes past 1800.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. Right.
Em Schulz: So 1769, the original part here was built and just like how you said, it's not even American yet because it was built for the British as a blockhouse or an observation point. Um, and then after a revolutionary war, it ended up being a part, uh, it became part of our land obviously. And it was bought by Richard King and his family.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I understand. That's the name of that. Cause I thought King's Tavern was the Brits being like, you must abide by our King. But no.
Em Schulz: Totally. I thought the same thing as I was going through the history.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah? Isn't that like kind of ironic. That's kind of funny.
Em Schulz: I know. Like, oh, well then an American quote, I don't even know what that means in 1780.
Christine Schiefer: A settler. A colonizer.
Em Schulz: A one day American whose name happened to be King, uh.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty wild.
Em Schulz: I know that is actually, I hadn't put it that way in my head yet. Um, uh, so the, King, nope, not now you fucked me up, not the King. So Richard King.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Richard King took this old observation point, turned it into a tavern and inn. And also another fun fact is he, because the country was so new, he turned it into like the town's first post office...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And he wasn't, it's not like he was like a postmaster or anything, but he kind of made like a makeshift in the back. He would just take people's packages and mail them for them.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and I learned, I mean, you might mention this, but I learned from my brother recently that you need to I learned from my brother recently that you need to, that back then, well I don't know if it was back then, I don't know what year, what decade, but to, in order to be incorporated as a town you needed a post office. So maybe he's like, oh let's, or was it already a town?
Em Schulz: I think it had, like last week it became a town.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay, so maybe they went hand in hand. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, you know, I don't know, it has to be updated since, but I remember in school, you know, the school where didn't teach me about rivers enough. Uh, I always heard that you had to have five things to be a town. You had to have a school, a hospital, a post office, I think it was like a grocery store and a police station, or a courthouse and a grocery store.
Christine Schiefer: And a Five Below.
Em Schulz: It was, um, a BDubs.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, I don't know there has to be, that's not enough things in today's world, so I feel like it's changed, but I do believe the post office thing. You have to have a post office.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The post office thing I feel like makes some sense, at least back then.
Em Schulz: Um, and buh buh bh. So yeah, so he turned it into a makeshift post office, he, and he renovated it into a tavern. Now this is where I want to tell you about one of my adventures while we've been traveling lately...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Okay.
Em Schulz: Which I think was Connecticut. I don't, they all get so muddled up. I go to like a hundred places per town, so I can't keep up.
Christine Schiefer: It's true.
Em Schulz: I think it was in Connecticut. Uh, I'm pretty sure, but there's a museum that has a whole exhibit just dedicated to old, uh, tavern signs that have been saved since like the beginning of the town.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Cool.
Em Schulz: And so I can send Megan some pictures if anyone feels like that's interesting to look at. But, uh, there's, there was like tavern signs from like the 1700s.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And we, it had, it feels like it was probably Connecticut. That feels like Connecticut.
Christine Schiefer: It was probably somewhere in New England, at least.
Em Schulz: Um, but so it was just this whole room of preserved tavern signs that were hand painted. They were like hand carved by the people because it was all wood at the time. And I guess at the time it was common. I don't know if it was like mandatory, but a lot of the signs I saw there were from the 1700s and early 1800s is where I saw it ending is all the signs said at the bottom, entertainment for man and horse. And that was apparently, and horse was not spelled with an E. It was just H O R S like hors d'oeuvres.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But apparently that was like the phrase originally to let people know as they're driving into town and they're looking for a place to stay. If they see on any painted sign entertainment for man and horse, that meant we're a tavern and probably an inn.
Christine Schiefer: You're kidding me. So the horse gets fed too and can park.
Em Schulz: I guess that's what it means by entertainment for the horse. But yeah, it's like, we'll keep your horse while you go to take a nap.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. So wait, why is there no E? Is that just how they spelled horse?
Em Schulz: I guess so. I don't. And then that makes me wonder what's the history of the E becoming part of horse.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe they put the basketball game.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know what? Smart ass. Hang on. When did horse start being spelled with an E? Uhh. Okay. It immediately I'm at the chronicle, the chrono of horse, the chronicle of the horse. Oh, some horse girl probably writes for this.
Christine Schiefer: Well, obviously.
Em Schulz: Okay. Which by the way, wouldn't trust anyone else's opinion.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, who else would we expect to write something so informative?
Em Schulz: So old English horse from uh, ProtoGermanic. Wow. Oh, okay. So horse H-O-R-S is old English and it comes from the old Norse. Imagine it in your head.
Christine Schiefer: I see, I see.
Em Schulz: So other words for horse at the time were old, in old Norse it was H-R-O-S-S. So gross with an H instead of a G.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: There was also H-O-R-S. There was O-R-S. Where the fuck does the E show up?
Christine Schiefer: So there's just like a multiple, multiple ways to say it.
Em Schulz: I'm looking for this damn E and I don't see anything. That didn't help me. I refuse to move on until we figure this out. Nope. I give up. Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's the most Em and Christine. By the way, Jack did not cut out a silence in there. [laughter] Like if you, if you like hear Em say, I'm going to, we're going to sit here until I figure this out. And then in the same breath say, nevermind, I give up. There was no editing. That was just straight fucking through. Beautifully done.
Em Schulz: I felt the pressure. I didn't like it. So I was like.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, there was like literally no pressure, but you know what? Uh, I appreciate you trying.
Em Schulz: If for some reason you end up doing like a bathroom break, I might go back to the perusing. But until then it was, um, yeah, the dopamine rush was over very quickly.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I guess we'll never know. So the King's Tavern, uh, was a tavern and also a makeshift post office and, uh, probably said entertainment for man and horse without an E on the sign. [laughter] And King's Tavern became this big popular spot, but because Natchez, uh, Mississippi was a port town and specifically because this area of town was on the main route back to the river, right. It was a prime target for outlaws to prey on travelers.
Em Schulz: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Because they would sell all their goods, make all this money from selling all their goods, stay at the tavern. And they had just pockets full of money because they had just sold all their goods when they came into town.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's that's, that seems like it'd be rife with, uh, some bad folk.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So there was a lot of bad folk who knew this routine. And so they would stay at the tavern, just waiting for people with a bunch of money to come in...
Christine Schiefer: Shit.
Em Schulz: And either rob them while they were staying at the end that night, or also get a room that night and follow them out to the, to the route by themselves and then rob them.
Christine Schiefer: Ooohf.
Em Schulz: And it sounds a little like, um, uh, uh, not as intense, but it feels a lot like the Shanghai tunnels that we've talked about where they would just rob people coming in, but they would like drop them down into a dungeon and traffic them out to sea.
Christine Schiefer: And then like traffic them. And it was a lot of times travelers are people who like, quote unquote, "wouldn't be missed" because they weren't being nobody knew where they were. Ooh.
Em Schulz: So because there was, this was a big area for the outlaws, uh, there was a lot of criminals that would stay here or at least pass through. And the most famous of them was a pair of brothers called, I think the Harpe brothers. It was harp with an E.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Sorry if it's harpy or whatever, but I think it's the Harpe brothers. They were allegedly...
Christine Schiefer: Well, it's not horsey Em, so, uh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They were allegedly America's first serial killers, which I feel like a lot of people try to claim that title, but they're in the running.
Christine Schiefer: I was going to say, Oh, so was H. H. Holmes. And so was the Bender family. So I don't, I don't know.
Em Schulz: The Bender family. Yeah. Um, but they, you know, they're one of the first, I guess. I mean, if America really has only been like 10 years old, I maybe if the US is only a few years old.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's it. They got a good headstart. I will give them that.
Em Schulz: We'll say they're one of the first sets of serial killers, um, because they wouldn't just rob these travelers. They like had a full blown interest in the absolute worst kind of maiming, torturing, pillaging.
Christine Schiefer: Oh what the fuck?
Em Schulz: Which I feel like Jordan, if you're listening, I wonder what that means as like people who probably just like experienced the revolutionary war. Like I, I wonder not to justify like what they were going through.
Christine Schiefer: Maiming people?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, but I wonder, yeah, no, but I wonder like mental illness wise, if therapy was where it is today, I wonder what people would be saying about them based on like what was going on in the world.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, probably what I say about every serial killer, which is like what a damaged past they have and terrible coping skills. And maybe they're a sociopath or psychopath. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I would bet that these people absolutely had, um, some just natural things they were dealing with naturally. It was not all environmental.
Christine Schiefer: They had to have some tendencies because you can't just, just cause you go to war doesn't make you a, you know, a gruesome, brutal serial killer with like, you know.
Em Schulz: No, but I was thinking more like, uh, well, I guess the, the years, it doesn't add up years wise. I was going to say, like, I wonder if there's like some sort of, uh, I don't know, trauma of like their, their family went to war and then they heard all these stories and they got really normalized for them. I don't like, I don't know if there was any secondary things that helped along.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but wouldn't that be everybody in that war. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's true.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I'm just saying like, you know, there must be some natural inclination because otherwise everyone who was traumatized would be a fucking serial killer.
Em Schulz: I do wonder what the psychology of, cause I feel like we hear a lot of like world war II and like you hear about like shell shock and things like that. I feel like I don't know anything about the psychology of people after the revolutionary war.
Christine Schiefer: Well, we're not studying the psychology of people after the revolution.
Em Schulz: I know, I know. I, it would be interesting to learn about if...
Christine Schiefer: Time travel once again, where is it? Hurry up.
Em Schulz: I would love for a, like a league of therapists to go back in time and just tell us what was going on with these people after the fact.
Christine Schiefer: That would be such a good screenplay.
Em Schulz: You're the writer between us. You handle that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mmh. That sounds like so much work. I don't, I would have to study stuff.
Em Schulz: Anyway, regardless of environment, these people were fucked up. Like these were, I'm not trying to blame it on anything. That was just, that became a side tangent in case anyone wants to like, I don't know, get mad about that. But, uh no, they were just probably naturally all on their own. A hundred percent awful people uh, because they were, let's see, let's give, let's give you an example. Their gang's calling card was to gut people...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And then remove their insides, refill them with rocks and sink them in the river.
Christine Schiefer: What in the fuck? I mean, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: That's what I'm you know what I'm saying. Like I should have probably said that before I went on my little bout before people think that I'm like conflating two situations, but uh, no, they were with or without their scenarios.
Christine Schiefer: It's a pretty icky situation, yeah.
Em Schulz: They were fucked up. They also had, um, wives which, uh, were young girls...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: That were kidnapped.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And they would do X, Y, and Z to these poor girls.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Um, if they got them pregnant, the baby was not going to be around afterwards.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my Lord.
Em Schulz: And then they would just do, continue to do whatever they wanted to these girls until they guess, I guess I got bored of them, got rid of them, found new ones and yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Okay.
Em Schulz: So they're not a moral to be found. Uh, fun fact about them though, both of them in separate instances, they like parted ways. They both ended up being killed. They both ended up being beheaded and their heads both end up mounted on the same road as warnings to people.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: Isn't that weird?
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, that's creepy.
Em Schulz: One of them like, I don't, I don't know all the details of each of their stories, but I know one of them was beheaded. The other then like witnessed that and ran off to like join a band of pirates or something. And then uh, he ended up getting in trouble with the courts and they executed him and beheaded him next to his brother or put his head next to his brother.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Ooh. Okay.
Em Schulz: And one of the spots where one of their heads was mounted is still called the Harpe's head road.
Christine Schiefer: Dear Lord. Can you imagine when you're like moved to the area and you're like, Oh, I'm Zillow. There's this beautiful like little cabin and you're like Hey, what's the history of the name? And the realtor is like, I would not know. I don't know. Don't look it up. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Don't look that up. Yeah. Cause I would think like head, like Harp's head. Hmm. What could that mean? What could that mean? I would never think, two awful, awful, awful, like serial killers being beheaded here, you know.
Christine Schiefer: And displayed right outside your home.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So they frequented King's tavern and because of them, or at least one of the brothers, we have our first death in the, at the tavern. While alive, one of them loved to hang around King's tavern, but the story goes, mmm. I don't know if you want to hear this one.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if I want to hear it. Cause you just made a creepy pause.
Em Schulz: Do you want to take your headphones off while I say this to everybody else?
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious?
Em Schulz: I think so. It's a baby.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm not listening.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, uh, they basically, well, he was alive. He liked to hang out around the bar and one night he was annoyed by one of the lodgers, uh, who was staying there because she had a crying baby in her room and he did not like that. So he went up to her room, grabbed the baby from the mother's arms, grabbed the baby's ankles and slammed the baby into the wall. And that's how the baby died. Thumbs up and Christine felt weird.
Christine Schiefer: I'm back.
Em Schulz: The baby died.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I figured, uh, I'm assuming they didn't throw him a birthday party. Um, I heard nothing. What happened? It was the longest explanation of whatever horrible thing. I just, it kept going, but also I found myself in a very peaceful state and, you know, in the future it would be nice every now and then for one of us to just take our headphones off. Cause I just heard the breeze and I just watched you talk, but I couldn't hear anything. It was actually quite peaceful.
Em Schulz: Oh, good. Well, I know that's a, that's a personal sensitivity for obvious reasons. So...
Christine Schiefer: I appreciate you saying that, uh, in all, like in all seriousness and not just joking. Cause that was, uh, probably good for my brain.
Em Schulz: I don't think you would have. And also I feel bad. I hope anyone else who was listening understood that a content warning was coming.
Christine Schiefer: I agree. I hope the gist was like clear. So yeah, fast forward with me.
Em Schulz: But yeah, anyway, so the first death was a baby and it was one of the Harpe brothers' doings. And another death here moving on quickly is said to be of a waitress named Madeline. And Madeline, I guess she started here as a server, but the legend goes that Richard King, the owner of the Tavern had an affair with her and his wife found out.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And it's said that the wife stabbed her to death with a dagger.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And one day conveniently around this time, Madeline goes mysteriously missing.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: No one ever finds her. And we'll, we'll come back to this real quick, but just know that the story goes that Richard's wife killed her.
Christine Schiefer: Oof. Okay.
Em Schulz: So then with the advent of the steamboat, all of a sudden there were less stops passing through this area.
Christine Schiefer: Aha. See, cause now they can go backwards.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, and so because now that there are new inventions that keep people from coming here all the time, the Tavern starts suffering. And in 1817, the Kings, the King family sells the Tavern and it ends up being bought. Yeah. 1817. Uh, and it ends up being bought by the Postlethwaite family.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy. Oh boy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Big old name. And they ended up living in this house for like five generations. I think they said it was almost 150 years that they lived here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Which is wild. Cause people still think of it as a Tavern, but for like a big chunk of it, it was someone's home.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I also, it's funny that they keep calling it King's Tavern probably because Postlethwaite or whatever is not as catchy of a title, even though they're the ones that were there for so long.
Em Schulz: I know. It's like, yeah. I wonder if people just couldn't pronounce it. Postlethwaite.
Christine Schiefer: Postlethwaite.
Em Schulz: I'm glad you do that too.
Christine Schiefer: Let's go with Kings.
Em Schulz: Cause in my head, I'll just be making every sound version of that. Yeah. Uh, although multiple family members probably died on the property just because 150 years of someone living there, something must've happened. The only one that we know for sure is that one of the women in the 1860s who lived there, her name was Elizabeth Postlethwaite. Postlethwaite. Postlethwaite.
Christine Schiefer: Postlethwaite.
Em Schulz: And she died in the 1860s. We don't know how we just know that she did.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, so she's maybe one of the ghosts. The family, while still living there in the 1930s, they were like, oh, this building's actually been around since like the 1770s. It's time for a reno. Let's just like give her, give her, put some lipstick on that pig.
Christine Schiefer: Fresh coat of paint. Yeah, lipstick. Yeah. Lipstick on the pig.
Em Schulz: Some paint on that barn. And so, uh, while they were doing renovations, I think this was in 1932, they broke apart the chimney in the main room, which was where the tavern was. And when they broke through the chimney, they found three skeletons.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Two of them were men. Imagine just knowing that for the last like 18, 17 to 1930s, that's 30, 80. That's literally over a hundred years of living there. And just to find out now the, like the area you like had the Christmas tree.
Christine Schiefer: I just feel like I would no longer believe in ghosts because I'd be like, well, if one never showed itself to me and I'm living with three dead bodies in the fireplace, um, then they can't be real. Sorry. I just don't believe it.
Em Schulz: That's a great point. But also I'd be like, wow, I've just been like having every family affair, every function, every event of my life has just been next to three skeletons this entire fucking time.
Christine Schiefer: Corpses. Yeah. Horrifying. Which I mean, honestly, I mean, I guess it's sort of the case for a lot of people who live, I mean, you wouldn't, you would know though, most of the time, like living by a cemetery or having people buried in the backyard.
Em Schulz: Cemetery or like in your living room. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly. And you would know, presumably if it were like where someone was laid to rest versus like, oh, they're just in the walls. We never told you about it.
Em Schulz: That's a, yeah, it's so freaky. Um, and I guess the only reason they were doing renovations is because the chimney never really worked when they were there. So they never turned it on.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit. They were like, oh, I guess we'll eventually get to that chimney thing. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And so that's why they were like, these skeletons were like preserved because they weren't having fires in this thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought they were like setting the fire and being like, why does it keep going out? Why does it smell like bodies in the chimney.
Em Schulz: It's this dead fucking body.
Christine Schiefer: Why does it smell like a dead fucking body? Megan.
Em Schulz: Megan. Oh, throwback. So, um, yeah, found three skeletons in there. Two were men. And to this day, we don't know who they were.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Uh, I saw one source say maybe it was the Harpe brothers, but then that goes against every other source talking about the beheading thing.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, I guess if they were headless maybe, but sounds like they were not.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then one is a woman and she happens to, I guess, I don't know what the science was in the 1930s, but I guess she seemed to be the age and size of Madeline.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: And next to the female skeleton was a bejeweled dagger. And so I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Bejeweled of all things.
Em Schulz: I know. I know. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And I feel like, um, I don't know if it's the chicken or the egg situation. I don't know if they saw the skeleton and this dagger and put that story of Madeline together, or there really was Madeline and she went missing and the King, the King family, like had some sort of quarrel with her. And then they happened to find a skeleton and a dagger. I don't know which came first, but the story ended up kind of putting these two events together.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I got you. I got you.
Em Schulz: Um, so many think that this skeleton was Madeline and that Mrs. King either kills her herself with a dagger or paid someone else to do it. And then bricked her into the very room. She and Mrs. King's husband were flirting and having the affair, which is so symbolic.
Christine Schiefer: And it feels real personal for sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but anyway, just how you were saying, if I've been in this room for a hundred years and never saw a ghost with three dead bodies next to me, then like ghosts shouldn't be real.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, I guess, I don't know if that's how they felt, but it doesn't sound like they ever had an experience with anything paranormal until the spirits were found and removed.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ooh.
Em Schulz: So they stirred shit up. So now you believe in ghosts.
Christine Schiefer: Now I believe in ghosts in this scenario. Okay. Got it. I'm back to believing them within a day or two. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So we don't know much about the Postlethwaite family's experience with ghosts. Um, we just know that the, the first recount of them is from the seventies.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But the renovation didn't happen or only happened in the thirties. So there's a 40 year gap that we don't know about.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Um, but the only reason we even have a comment from the seventies is because someone asked about it being haunted and someone made a comment saying, Oh yeah, I've always heard about haunted.
Christine Schiefer: And it just happened to be then. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So it could have been 40 years of ghosts and just no one wrote it down until the seventies. We don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Cause no one asked.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, if you asked, I hate that fucking line. Well, if you asked, um, so in the seventies.
Christine Schiefer: I do too, fucking rude. Sorry.
Em Schulz: It's so rude. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you should have asked what? No, that's not how this works.
Em Schulz: I feel like that's kind of like a, I don't know. We could, let's not spiral.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, what else is rude that people do?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, okay. 1970s hits. And from 18, uh, 1817, it was sold from the Kings.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: The Postlethwaites moved in like a few years later, like in the twenties, 1820s. So now we're in the 1970s. This is 150 years later. They sell the building and it reopens as restaurants now. So now it's back to being a taverny.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh a tavern type. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And, uh, one of the restaurants that opens up right away, uh, once it's sold from the family is it's called the post house restaurant, which I feel like post was supposed to be a nod to the Postlethwaites.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't even get it.
Em Schulz: Or because it was the town's first post office.
Christine Schiefer: The post office. Wait, what a fun double entendre though?
Em Schulz: I know. And do you want to know another fun? Can you say it? Cause I can't do it.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Oh, double entendre.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You say it the way you say it gets me every time.
Christine Schiefer: It's just cause my dad always says it's so annoying.
Em Schulz: Well, so there's the word post that could be post office or Postlewaite.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Or it then be the, the Postlethwaites sold it to a man whose last name was Drinkwater and it became a tavern again.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: So I feel like it was like that was a little interesting. By the way, his first name was thirsty little rat.
Christine Schiefer: You got me there.
Em Schulz: But I thought that was interesting of like, Oh, like someone named Drinkwater ends up making a restaurant.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like that was...
Em Schulz: That's more of a stretch, but it's still interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Fate was, uh, had a hand in fate was like, I know you, you have to know you're calling right from birth.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also like if he's not the most hydrated man I've ever met, I would be confused.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, he's probably not.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It'd be, uh, I don't know. This is character flaw. You know.
Em Schulz: You know, in college he drank a lot of beer and he was like, my name should be drink beer, you know, something stupid.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And everyone was like, that's not going to catch on like you think it is. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, in the seventies it's sold and reopened as restaurants first, the posthouse restaurant. Then I think there were some other restaurants in between, but it ends, ends up being a reimagined King's tavern. So that's how it ends up becoming king's Tavern.
Christine Schiefer: It's very full circle. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And that's the name that they go with too and everything.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So unfortunately this is how recent this building was still around and the building's still around, but it's no longer in use because of COVID.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: And they couldn't recover after the COVID.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. In a hundred years, they'll be telling the story and be like, and then in 2020 kids, does anyone remember what happened?
Em Schulz: The pandemic.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Boring.
Em Schulz: But, uh, up until its closure though, it was, uh, the, the staff were very proud of its haunted past. They would happily tell stories to inquiring minds such as ours. And I said earlier, the first mention of ghosts was in the seventies. This was in an article, uh, of the Natchez, uh, the Natchez Democrat. And it was in 1974, one of the kids who grew up in the house. So I guess he was related to the Postlethwaites. His name was Thomas Young. And he said, my grandmother has told me many times of the misty figure of the veiled woman in a cloak with head bowed and hands folded, which stood at the foot of her bed at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Oh, okay. How charming grandma.
Em Schulz: And that was in '74 when I think he was talking about the past, which would have been much closer to the thirties.
Christine Schiefer: Right. So like the previous decades, presumably.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I'm assuming here that like, it has been haunted since they moved those bodies out of the chimney.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and then I think this also helped boost their spooky credibility in 1994 when a reporter stayed the night and actually saw Madeline or so she claims because she then wrote an article about it and it went out in the National Enquirer, which could not be...
Christine Schiefer: Aha.
Em Schulz: The most fact-based thing we've ever read, [laughter] but I'm sure, I don't know about you, but I remember National Enquirer being a big fucking thing in the nineties and early 2000s. Like I, I feel like everyone had a copy of it. I feel like that would have bolstered.
Christine Schiefer: Is that where Batboy was from?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. No, but that was from World Weekly News.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. You're right. Right. Right. Right. National Enquirer. Yeah. True.
Em Schulz: National Enquirer was like celebrity based.
Christine Schiefer: Right. True, true, true. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, anyway, so I feel like that probably helped it gain some traction in the paranormal world.
Christine Schiefer: I imagine.
Em Schulz: Or at least kept it alive.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like I said, afterwards, after the renovations and the discovery of the bodies, that's when the spirits started coming through. Allegedly there are several ghosts in this house, but Madeline is the most popular one of them all. And again, we don't know how accurate that story is. It could be a totally made up thing. After they found a skeleton, they just kind of ran with a story that she had an affair.
Christine Schiefer: Is it, is it for sure that, um, the skeletons were actually found? Like that part's factual.
Em Schulz: That's real.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And the dagger that there was a dagger.
Christine Schiefer: And the dagger. Bejeweled.
Em Schulz: Bejeweled dagger. And so we just, we have to assume that the Madeline story is real. That's at least part of its lore now.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But the other ghosts other than Madeline, who's the most popular are of people hear a baby crying and people also see a redheaded man in a top hat.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And we don't know who he is.
Christine Schiefer: I like, I just, it just threw me for a second. Cause I'm like, he's in a top hat, but he has red hair. So like, is it like coming? Is it long? Is it like side burns? I don't know.
Em Schulz: I like to think shaggy.
Christine Schiefer: Shaggy. Yeah, probably.
Em Schulz: I like to think people actually see him take his long hair. He turns upside down and he sticks it all in the top hat and then throws his head back up and he doesn't even have hair all of a sudden.
Christine Schiefer: Actually that's just probably, that sounds like what they meant. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So the ghost is walking down the hall. You see him lift his top hat and all of a sudden just a cascade of red curls fall right out.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yeah. That sounds like exactly how it went.
Em Schulz: Like a Maybelline commercial.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Uh, so what people experience here is they, uh, they see fleeting reflections in the mirrors. They feel a warmth coming from unused beds. Like someone just slept in it.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ew. That's a new one.
Em Schulz: I know. Or like they'll even feel like the, the, the frame of the bed and it all feels really hot for some reason. The bed will also like the blankets will move themselves. So it looks like someone was sleeping in it when no one was. People see Madeline or a woman in old fashioned clothing. Her face apparently has been seen looking at people in mirrors and windows.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And after the staff has just mopped the floors, there are footprints in the puddles.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Oh, that's creepy. That reminds me of Queen Mary a little bit by the pool.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And what I, what I hate about that is that it implies that when there aren't puddles on the floor, they're walking everywhere and we just don't see it.
Christine Schiefer: That's so true. It's like, you're just catching them now. Eugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it's weird that like we don't catch them. Like they're not immune to water.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like, is that their only weakness? They're like a puddle. Oh no.
Em Schulz: Because then that makes me think if I caught them at the exact right moment and I just threw a bucket of water in their direction, would like a figure appear in the water?
Christine Schiefer: Imagine.
Em Schulz: Like, why are your footprints not able to hide? Could the rest of you hide?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I don't totally get that.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: It's one of those things where it makes me feel like the ghost wants attention. Cause you could in theory not do that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, can you just stay in there till the water dries but...
Em Schulz: Or that, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like maybe, it's because maybe it's like a... Well I was gonna say residual, but then, like, wouldn't it would it still be leaving marks on the... I don't know.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah, like, if it's interfering with our world, then how much of that world is it attached to?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. Like, if they can move water around with their feet, even if it's just a residual haunting. Oh, lord, I have a headache already.
Em Schulz: I feel like if, like, let's say they have... There's, like, a bowl of water or, like, pancake batter or something. I feel like if they could hit that and prove that there has been, like, a motion or, like, they could a splash could happen. So, like, they could interact with liquids voluntarily, in my mind, but to... But yeah, it doesn't feel like a residual haunting if they're walking through something where they're...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, if their blueprint theory is that they walk in this path, but there happens to be a puddle in the way right now in this time and space, why is it overlapping in a way where, like, they're in their world, but it's affecting our worlds?
Christine Schiefer: Right, exactly.
Em Schulz: Like, should it just be the... I don't know. But then I guess, like, that you could say the same thing about, like, when they're walking down a hall and all of a sudden our... The door moves and it's because they're walking into our door.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: So maybe, like, we're just in the way of them having a residual moment?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't doubt we're in the way. It's some... Some way or another. That... I don't even know where to begin. I... My brain has broken.
Em Schulz: Where... You need to take one of those edibles that you love so much.
Christine Schiefer: I sure... I don't think I do. I think it would end up really bad for all of us if I did. I think I would be the most annoying person.
Em Schulz: Well, so they say that's how Madeline haunts the place, but she's also responsible for jars falling off of shelves, which, like, wow, I hope that they are, like, shatterproof. Like, that's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if like...
Christine Schiefer: Or filled with something. Like, not super... Not, like, olive juice or something. Like, something like jam that you can at least... No, that's sticky.
Em Schulz: Something where it's, like, where it's just holding one big, like, a kiwi.
Christine Schiefer: It's just a jar of a kiwi. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Something you can just pick up. Of a sundried tomato.
Christine Schiefer: It's a classic... We all... We all have a kiwi jar at home, so we all get it. We all know what that's like. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, yeah, [laughter] I also imagine just being a ghost and, like, you're not doing anything wrong. Or, like, you're living out the blueprint theory. You're just walking around your own fucking house. It's not my fault that there's jars in my way. They're gonna get knocked over.
Christine Schiefer: Your kiwis don't even need to be in a jar, moron.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But apparently she's responsible for it. So if jars are falling off the shelves there, they're blaming Madeline. It might not even be her name. And, like, it might not even be her story. There's just someone getting blamed constantly about it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Apparently, they're... The doors of the entire building will open and close if you say her name. So, I mean, she's at least responsive to the name at this point, whether or not it was who she was.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, fine, I give in. I guess I'll answer to Madeline.
Em Schulz: It's like, I guess that's my nickname now. But, yeah, the doors will open and close. Or even worse is, like, doors that are really sticky and refuse to close will only close if you say her name. It's like she... Which she does kind of want the attention. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it sounds like it.
Em Schulz: I feel like my original theory was right.
Christine Schiefer: I think you're right, too.
Em Schulz: The... Yeah, those same doors, they will only open and close if you, like, mention her or ask her to open and close them. Faucets will turn on and off by themselves. Uh, the chairs that are hung on the wall, because, you know, like in some, like, old general stores...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Use chairs as decoration on the wall. I know it's not decoration. It's, like, for storage, but it looks like decoration. They will apparently rock by themselves on the wall.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And... This one's weird... Water mysteriously pours from the ceilings without ever leaving any damage. And, like, any cause. Like, they'll look through the pipes and nothing's wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so... But this is the second water thing, you know? That's kind of weird, isn't it?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Interesting. Because, like, water wasn't part of her story.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, at least as far as we know.
Em Schulz: Although fire in a chimney maybe is an opposite day situation. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Madeline weigh in. Um, so people have also witnessed shadow figures on the stairs and a woman staring at them from across the room. The man in the top hat has a much more sinister feeling to him and some have thought that maybe he's one of the Harpe brothers still coming into the tavern.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit. Were they redheads?
Em Schulz: I don't know. Someone look at their beheadings.
Christine Schiefer: No, because I looked earlier when I googled them and they are all obviously, like, just drawings because... So I don't... They're not in color.
Em Schulz: I don't know if they were redheads. Let's pretend.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, let's pretend.
Em Schulz: So when the spirit... This, like, this top hat man...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, but they sure didn't wear... It does not look like they wore top hats. They wore, like.
Em Schulz: Bandits clothes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like, furs and shit.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, so maybe it wasn't... I don't know. It's... Whoever it is, it's a bad ghost. Um, and when this spirit is around, people have said they feel their chest tightening, they have been strangled, they felt irregular heart rates, they get shoved, and people have gotten mild attachments slash mild possessions from this thing where they start acting completely out of character. They're acting really discombobulated. They'll just wander around. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, and like...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: It's the word mild. Mild possession.
Em Schulz: Well, it's not, like, exorcism possession.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: They are acting out of sorts.
Christine Schiefer: If someone... If I were possessed and someone said, oh, it's just a mild case, I would be like, why don't you go fuck yourself? And then I'd be like, just kidding. That was the ghost. That was the ghost talking, but...
Em Schulz: Let's say, like, a possession that is easily escapable and, like, does not require, like, the Catholic church to get involved.
Christine Schiefer: Understood. Okay, fair point, fair point. Like, you can cleanse it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or, like, leave the premises and it will, like, detach from you.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Thank you.
Em Schulz: So, people have seen this man upstairs, uh, like, by... By the steps. They have heard noises throughout the building that they associate with him. Dishes have been thrown all across the kitchen and they say it's him. I guess, like, what's the difference between jars and dishes?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say, wait, so why are we blaming everything on her?
Em Schulz: I feel like jars... I would blame it all on... I think anything inconvenient, I would blame on the bad guy.
Christine Schiefer: I agree.
Em Schulz: But I guess some people say that the jars, it seems like they really are accidentally knocked off, whereas the dishes are, like, picked up and slammed.
Christine Schiefer: Okay I got it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she's just, like, a clumsy girl.
Christine Schiefer: I get it. I get it.
Em Schulz: But the dishes get slammed down like it's violent.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. He's like, this ain't... This isn't me being clumsy. I... I'm doing it on purpose.
Em Schulz: Yeah, this is... Okay. I do want attention. This is intentional.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Um, and so, oh, people catch really startling EVPs. They get, like, really clear ones, um, and I'll give some examples in a second, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Cameras and equipment will malfunction and die until you leave the property and then it'll all, like, start back up and be at full battery. Uh, there's one guy who appears... Oh, I think it might actually be the same guy, the same Top Hat guy. He appears in the... In pictures that people take by the fireplace.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So people think maybe he's one of the bodies that was in the fireplace.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait, there were two men, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, and we don't know who they were.
Christine Schiefer: That is interesting. Okay, that could make sense.
Em Schulz: So I wonder if he's actually... I mean, in today's world, he is not a good spirit, but I wonder if he's, like, just frustrated because he never got recognition.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm thinking, like, no wonder he's pissed off. I'd be pissed off.
Em Schulz: Or maybe he's a victim of one of the Harpe brothers, or maybe he was...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I mean we don't know. We just know that he's very mad and not good energy these days.
Christine Schiefer: What the F?
Em Schulz: Women have, uh... Oh, not... Not women. People have also seen a woman in these pictures next to the fireplace and a lot of people have associated it with being Madeleine because she was found in the fireplace.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But critics have also said, uh, actually, realistically, it's probably that woman, Elizabeth Postlethwaite, because her family lived here for, like, 150 years and she's the only confirmed death in the family.
Christine Schiefer: I see. Okay, I mean, that makes sense to me.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I also, like, I feel like for a family whose energy has been here for so long and there is at least one confirmed death, right, she has to be one of the people haunting this place. Like, she has to be.
Christine Schiefer: She deserves to be, if she wants to, at least.
Em Schulz: Yeah, like, she should be, like, ruling the roost right now.
Christine Schiefer: That's her prerogative. She gets... Yeah, she gets, uh, slot number one, in my opinion.
Em Schulz: Yes, yeah, and, um, but yeah, so nobody talks about maybe her being one of the ghosts, which is so wild because we don't even know if the Madeleine story is real. We know that there are three skeletons. We just don't know the true stories to them. Um, and we know that Elizabeth died here.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So there's four confirmed, oh, and the baby. So there's... That's five, that's at least two confirmed deaths in the building and three skeletons, which are assumed three more deaths.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But nobody mentions Elizabeth. Every time they see a woman, they think it's Madeleine, but it's like, what about that fucking veiled woman crossing her hands and shit, like that?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, nobody, nobody, no takers?
Em Schulz: And someone actually got a picture upstairs one time of a woman, like a spirit of a woman, and apparently it's pretty uncanny to Elizabeth Postlethwaite.
Christine Schiefer: Ha ha!
Em Schulz: So, I wouldn't be surprised if her whole family, if five generations of her family stayed there, wouldn't she want to take care of the place?
Christine Schiefer: And she's so... She was so clumsy. That's one thing I know about her.
Em Schulz: Clumsiest bitch you'll ever meet.
Christine Schiefer: I think it really adds up.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm the clumsiest bitch you'll ever meet. She's second.
Em Schulz: She's second. Okay, that's fine. I'll be third. This is the... Like I said, so people have seen a man by the fireplace in pictures, they think he's one of the skeletons, or sometimes they've even seen a woman next to the fireplace, they assume it's Madeleine, could be Elizabeth.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Since it was her living room.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Oh. But the... Okay, so they... Sorry, I know, I understand now I caught up, but so the... They think that the spirit might be Elizabeth, but not necessarily the body in the... They don't think that's Elizabeth.
Em Schulz: The skeleton has only ever been deemed as Madeleine, whether or not we know how true that story is.
Christine Schiefer: Because I was like, wait, did we just miss a whole thing where they buried her in the fireplace?
Em Schulz: No, I think it's because the tavern area was once Elizabeth and her five generations of family's living room.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So, of course she'd hang out in there by the fireplace. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. Makes sense.
Em Schulz: Anyway, there's a woman. We don't know who it is. Is the... TLDR.
Christine Schiefer: Just, yeah.
Em Schulz: Another weird thing about the fireplace though, because remember it didn't even work for a while, which is why they did renovations and there were skeletons in there.
Christine Schiefer: Right. I remember.
Em Schulz: After that, this... The fireplace still seems to be out of commission. It like just always had a problem and never really worked. And even though it doesn't work, it for some reason still emits heat as if it's working.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that's so weird. And with the... With the beds being hot to the touch, like that's so odd.
Em Schulz: I'm wondering if there was a fire at some point that like never got recorded.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: Or maybe something happened on the property during the war, like...
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe it's all those sundried bricks. They're just like, we're still hot, baby.
Em Schulz: Still as hot as the sun.
Christine Schiefer: Soaking all that sun.
Em Schulz: Uh, alarms go off nonstop in the building. So police are constantly being sent over. A news crew even tried to do an investigation here and they said they saw flowing shadows. Somebody got poked by unseen hands and they watched the room temperature drop on its own to 20 degrees, which feels like the opposite of fire.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, maybe back in the day when it was a King's tavern, maybe it was like such a respite for people because it was warm and cozy and so it still holds that like sort of more a rest stop for you and your hors, without an E.
Em Schulz: Your hors.
Christine Schiefer: Your hors. You and your hors can stop here and have some brandy and be warm and we can still feel their warmth. I don't know. That seems like a stretch, but...
Em Schulz: You know what? Anything could be real at this point and anything could not be real at this point.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably true. Honestly, Em, that's the deepest thing you've ever said.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, by the way, Christine. Oh my god. I met the most insufferable man.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Why didn't you call me immediately? Just kidding. We are always meeting in several moments. Okay, go on.
Em Schulz: He was... I went to a... I went to a few bars in... Where did... Where were we just? In Providence.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Was it... It was either Providence or... I think it was Providence. I went to a few bars. Um, by the way, if anyone wants to know what my favorite one was, if you happen to be around there, it was Auggie's Trailer Park. It was incredible.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: Um, I also went to one called Dead Beats, which is apparently horror themed with love.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Zero out of ten.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: One out of... One out of ten because they so... They served Ecto uh, Ecto Cooler, like the green Ghostbusters Hi-C drink.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They had their own version of Ecto Cooler and they had like Slimer from the Ghostbusters sitting on. So that was the only cool thing. Everything else, not so great.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was a good part you're saying.
Em Schulz: That was kind of the only good part.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. That's a bummer.
Em Schulz: I really wanted it to be more than it was. It was really just like a dark dive bar. It was cool, but it was not what I wanted. If you're going to promote yourself as a horror themed bar, you got to really commit, commit.
Christine Schiefer: You're right. Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, Auggie's Trailer Park, great. But the one I want to talk about is, uh, it was called Justine's and it looks, even when it's open at night, it looks like it's closed. It looks like a closed business on the side of the street.
Christine Schiefer: I'm already anxious. Okay.
Em Schulz: And it was, it's a lingerie store. So when you look through the window, it looks like a closed lingerie with like the old mannequin wearing something. Um, and the door is just fucking open. You just walk in.
Christine Schiefer: And like there's...
Em Schulz: Like unlocked. Unlocked and there's no people in there. And it just looks like one tiny little room that sells lingerie and you open the door. But behind what looks like the wall, if you're looking in, in the window, it looks like there's a black wall. It's actually a curtain.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: You pull back the curtain and it's like a speakeasy.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, boy.
Em Schulz: There might have been someone working there who was just a little too much for me.
Christine Schiefer: Um, bummer.
Em Schulz: Yeah, the, the, the vibes, excellentante. Except, except this one guy was really like, you could tell, I think he was like a philosophy or a cinema major in college. And I think he thought everything he said was moving.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Oh no.
Em Schulz: I felt trapped. I was like, I can't get away. I just sat down.
Christine Schiefer: What did he say?
Christine Schiefer: He was just saying things like, like he's a, he's a, he was saying, cause he's a bartender. He was like, we create, we inspire, we, we write the narrative for the night and we, we.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, all right. Yeah, relax.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Please God. I was like, I'm sure, I'm sure that's a lovely take, but I came here alone for a reason. I didn't want to talk to anybody. So why are you talking to me?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and it was, it's one thing, like if he like made small talk for a second, but he was very interested in not going away. And I was like, I can't tolerate this.
Christine Schiefer: He was very interested in not going away. That's so much. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was so clear. It was so clear. I was like, and I was trapped. I was like, I was, there's nothing I can do. I can't get out of here. I have to wait to pay my tab and everything. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Christ.
Em Schulz: He just kept going. And he'd be like, he'd be like, so what moves you today? What moved you?
Christine Schiefer: No, come on.
Em Schulz: But you know.. And like the thing that sucks is like self-fulfilling prophecy. He clearly wanted me to talk about him later. And I am so like, I'm giving him what he wanted. I hate that. But like, you know, he thought on the ride home, I was just so beside myself overwhelmed with how incredible his opinion was.
Christine Schiefer: I just don't understand who, who is like, who is like telling this person, you know, it's like, where did you get this idea?
Em Schulz: I think he was like some, he must've been some sort of tortured artist who like just had poetry in his soul and didn't know how to get it out. And like, he just had so much to say and no one was willing to listen. And I was one of those people.
Christine Schiefer: Oofa doofa. I mean, how, when maybe, maybe you were the, maybe you finally got the message across.
Em Schulz: I just, no, I was trying so hard. I was being too nice. I, I could tell that he really just wanted somebody to talk to.
Christine Schiefer: You were trying to validate him. That's very thoughtful of you to be fair.
Em Schulz: I was like, maybe this guy's just like really lonely. He's got like big opinions. He really wants to just like, he wants to be a part of somebody's night. Like I get it. That's lovely. But like, man, I just wanted to sit here and play Sudoku while I drank a mocktail. Like that was all I wanted.
Christine Schiefer: God, like that's all we, that's all we want, right? Like all of us, except it was not the mocktail.
Em Schulz: I think he saw the game on my phone as an invitation of like, oh, well you're not talking.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. If I'm playing a game on my phone, especially bingo, it's timed. Like don't talk to me. My neighbor said hi to me and I was walking Gio and I was like, I'm sorry, I'm doing something really important. I was literally looking for 070. Like that's what I was doing, but it was so important. So do not interrupt.
Em Schulz: It really was like at, it was out of control.
Christine Schiefer: What the hell is wrong with people?
Em Schulz: He meant very well. I don't mean to like poo poo on him in a way where like, he was not a good person. He was just, him and I were not meant to be.
Christine Schiefer: It's just not compatible. I get it. I get it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It was just he and somebody else who really needs a pep talk are going to get along great, but I wanted to be left alone. Totally.
Christine Schiefer: You were pepped enough. Yeah. I get it. I do.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I don't know how we got there, but I will, this is the last chunk of things I have to say is that the King's Tavern obviously is very haunted. It has been featured on many ghost hunting shows.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. I knew it. I knew this was coming. I knew it. I knew it.
Em Schulz: Including a little something you'd call adventures du ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Adventures du ghost.
Em Schulz: On se voit.
Christine Schiefer: On se voit.
Em Schulz: Uh, and so yes, ghost adventures, uh, starring Zak "Bagelbites" Bagans. And I will tell you, obviously I watched it, so you don't have to, but I will say, I know we give him a lot of shit, but sometimes he's got those episodes that are just really freaky.
Christine Schiefer: It really is true. Sometimes I genuinely get freaked out. Em and I will be the first to admit it. Like sometimes we're like, oh dear, this got creepier than I expected. And uh...
Em Schulz: I don't have, I don't have any evidence of this, but I feel like a lot of times on his show, it might be cheated in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Whaaat?
Em Schulz: But there are sometimes.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, did that sound convincing?
Em Schulz: But there are times where like you go to enough spooky places, something spooky is going to happen.
Christine Schiefer: You can kind of see like, oh geez, this is like a real frightening moment for them and not for me.
Em Schulz: This was a good one. If you're going to watch an episode of ghost adventures, this was a good one.
Christine Schiefer: That's great. I honestly, I'm going to remember that.
Em Schulz: I will say it was weirdly dagger heavy because I guess Zak Bagans decided or, and by Zak Bagans, I mean the producers or whatever, but he has a producer on the show. So he.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would argue he's probably the main producer, but yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. A lot of times in reality TV of like, if you're wondering why people are doing something, it's not up to them. Like the producer said, this is what we've decided is happening. You have to do these beats in the script.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But since he's a producer, he got to be in charge.
Christine Schiefer: But we Zak Bagans and we know him enough to know, like he probably won't, at least in the later seasons, I doubt he would do something that he's like, does not want to do.
Em Schulz: And this was season eight. He was in his prime time producing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: And I think he heard the story about Madeline being stabbed with a dagger and a skeleton and a dagger being found in the chimney. And fun fact, the dagger to this day is missing or like, is like somewhat missing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It's hard to come by, I guess. And so he made this whole episode, like at least the first half, like we were going to find the dagger. Okay. Like it's national treasure.
Christine Schiefer: If they find the dagger, then we know it's not, this is fake. Cause like, yeah.
Em Schulz: So fun fact, he ends up tracking down someone who's a relative of the owner of the dagger. We never see the dagger at best. We get this relative who has seen the dagger. Giving a description of it. That's the best we get.
Christine Schiefer: All right.
Em Schulz: That story leads to nothing.
Christine Schiefer: I just feel like, you know, he wanted that fucking dagger for his museum, right?
Em Schulz: I know he had a pocket full of thousands of dollars ready to hand it over.
Christine Schiefer: That has to be it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, anyway, so the first half of it, you can probably honestly just skip. It was just him on a quest for the dagger. He didn't find it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But I will say the ghost hunting part fucking wild. So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, he interviews other investigators that have already been to the tavern and they warned that like something does like weirdly attach to people. They've been attached to it. They say, this is where I thought like the research was interesting. One of those investigators said that they got an EVP of the name Mason coming through and Mason was one of their kids.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And so they were very freaked out by that. But I will say in my own research, Mason was the name of like one of the guys that hung out with the Harpe brothers.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So I don't know if like, I mean, it's creepy either way, but I think he took it as like a personal, Oh, they're threatening my kid versus like maybe the Harpe brothers were just like naming somebody they know.
Christine Schiefer: I see. Okay. Okay. Okay. So it was like, it's like a current person, but it's also a historic. It could be just referencing the.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like Mason was one of the names of somebody that they knew.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. Okay.
Em Schulz: So I don't know if it was meant to be all that personal. It could have been, I don't know. Um, anyway, so immediately Zak Bagans, he goes in alone. He asks who's killed there. And the spirit box says, Madeline.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So that's a good start. It's a good start. Then Nick says, were you murdered here? And the spirit box gets a female voice, very clearly saying "yes."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Woah. Sorry. I felt like people wouldn't really get it until I made the sound effects that I'm sure accompanied that evidence.
Em Schulz: Well, super creepy. I guess they had like a bunch of, um, uh, duvetyne or, uh, like some sort of sound canceling light blocking fabric on the windows.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Um, and, uh, weirdly they did get kind of it on camera. You could see the reflection of it happening, but the window covers were completely ripped off of one of the windows, even though they were all secured the same way.
Christine Schiefer: Ewww.
Em Schulz: And the others were like really stuck on there. It had clearly been torn down and you can hear it and see it happening. And it's very creepy. Honestly. Yes. It could have just dropped, but it is weird that the other three windows were perfectly secure. Um, there are a lot of sounds in the basement. There was clear EVPs of a baby's voice or like a baby kind of like going goo goo gaga. And then you can hear a woman saying, "I can say your names." And then you can hear a woman say...
Christine Schiefer: Oh you wanna see a trick?
Em Schulz: And then, uh, you hear a woman say, "we'll get ya."
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Okay. Wait, what's that line? I was trying to think of it the other day that what's the line that you started saying where you were like, and for my next trick. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And for my final act and for my next trick.
Christine Schiefer: For my next trick I can say all your names and for my final trick, I'm going to getcha.
Em Schulz: I, you know, what's so weird is I only say that alone. I think even I know that's too far.
Christine Schiefer: I love it. It's cute.
Em Schulz: Oh, good. Thank you. I was making, um, cereal making cereal. I was pouring myself a bowl of cereal. And when I went for the milk, I said out loud, Oh, for my next act.
Christine Schiefer: So ridiculous.
Em Schulz: For no reason. And so nobody just like, Oh, and for my, for my final act, I'm gonna get the milk.
Christine Schiefer: I love it though. I'm really about it.
Em Schulz: It gets me going, uh, tickles the brain. So anyway, this is where it gets super creepy. So the voices have said, "we'll get ya." Nick starts acting so fucking weird. And like, not that I know him personally, but you can tell something's off. Like.
Christine Schiefer: And of all the people, I feel like Nick's the least like, um...
Em Schulz: He is.
Christine Schiefer: Like kind of under Zak's thumb, you know?
Em Schulz: We don't, to be fair, we don't know any more information than the rest of the public, but there was like some weird thing that happened a few months ago.
Christine Schiefer: It was like a slight exposé that was about Zak Bagans that kind of basically just elucidated some traits of Zak's that like, we all kind of knew already, but like, you know.
Em Schulz: But Nick was like, I think ready to say something fucking significant.
Christine Schiefer: Well he released it, his statement, but it was just like.
Em Schulz: Oh he did?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but it was just kind of like kind of, it was like, Oh yeah, that's shitty. But we kind of sort of knew that I guess now it's just confirmed, you know, like he kicked Nick off of his show and then said, like, basically told the Travel Channel they were never allowed to hire him again.
Em Schulz: Dang.
Christine Schiefer: And he said, yeah, they said like, Zak was like, I am your whole channel. So like, you can't, you can't hire Nick for any other project. So, uh, that's kind of what the exposé was. And everyone was kind of like, well, it's not surprising, you know, like we're not shocked by this information.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, yeah. But, but because of that, usually I, in my brain, I feel like Nick isn't as maybe willing to cheat the system.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like he's the least under Zak's kind of like command, I think is what I perceive.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's how, that's what I think about it. But he starts acting really fucking weird on camera. He's acting like there's something attached to him. Like he's staring at something that isn't there. He's kind of backing up into a wall. Like something's coming at him. He starts wandering off when they tell him like, Hey, sit still. He's like, it's like, he's not there and he'll just stand up and walk away.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: Um, of course, this is the moment where Zak says, and I quote, "I want Nick to do another spirit box session. So that way we can see how much deeper this possible attachment can go with him." Of course, he says that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh see this is so fucked. Yeah. No wonder this guy like wrote an exposé. Jesus.
Em Schulz: So Nick starts acting even weirder. Like he's deep lost in the sauce.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh, I thought this was a mild possession. And now I feel like I've been misled.
Em Schulz: It's I mean, it goes, he ends up being fine, but at the time it was, if this happened to you, I would have, we would not be there anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Got it. Good. Good to know.
Em Schulz: So maybe, maybe not mild, but, um, medium heat, if you know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got you.
Em Schulz: If this happened to you, I would grab you by the cuff and I would, I would drag you out by the fucking ankle. I'd be like, we're getting out of here.
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, cut it out. We're leaving. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, you can stay. I'm fucking gone. Like you're not where I'm out of here. Do you want a ride back to the hotel or not?
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm going to stay here.
Em Schulz: Eva's already in the car. It's all warmed up. It's getting toasty in there. She's she's got her foot ready. Pedal to the metal. Christine get the fuck in the car.
Christine Schiefer: I'll see you later.
Em Schulz: Um, if you said no, I'm good. That's how I know it's time to actually.
Christine Schiefer: It's a real possession.
Em Schulz: Grab you by the fucking collar and be like, yeah, we have to leave.
Christine Schiefer: Now, we're in trouble.
Em Schulz: Um, so, uh, Nick starts acting even weirder. He's like walking weirdly in like slow motion.
Christine Schiefer: Waaah.
Em Schulz: It's, it feels like he's walking around. Like he has not actually been in a body recently and he's relearning how to walk.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's the creepiest thing you could have said, but great.
Em Schulz: Aaron starts Aaron is upstairs by himself and he uses the Ovilus and the Ovilus says out loud, "travel outside," which like sounds like take a fucking walk. Get out of here.
Christine Schiefer: Take a hike, baby.
Em Schulz: Says travel outside. Nick, who was told by Zak to like not leave his room and to, to not get up or anything.
Christine Schiefer: Don't leave your room.
Em Schulz: He stands up and wanders off by himself and finds Aaron upstairs.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And he's like slowly hobbling towards Aaron.
Christine Schiefer: Ee-aaah!
Em Schulz: As Aaron gets this "travel outside."
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: Nick did not hear the Ovilus, but as he walks in, he says, you need to leave the room.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? I don't like that. Usually those kinds of things don't get me. Cause I'm like, Oh, they're just faking it. But somehow this is really creepy. Even though I'm not even watching.
Em Schulz: They play multiple cameras at the same time to show the like Nick was not.
Christine Schiefer: So he couldn't hear it at all.
Em Schulz: He didn't hear it. He would. And he comes in and he goes, you need to leave the room. And as Aaron starts walking, he freaks out, like freaks out, like something grabbed him. And you hear Nick laughing off camera. And at the same time, their recorders later got an EVP of other laughter. So it's almost like two, two laughters at the exact same time.
Christine Schiefer: I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Which then I'm like, is it a laughter? Is it from, was it the same thing laughing in two bodies?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Is it Nick's Nick's possessor? Yeah. Like laughing. Yeah. Or is it like a different spirit? Yeah. That's a good question.
Em Schulz: So he freaks out like something grabbed him. You hear two sets of laughter, And Aaron says, "something just grabbed my back." And Nick from the other side of the room says "I know, that's why I came to get you because they're about to attack you."
Christine Schiefer: But I think it's hilarious so.
Em Schulz: And then he but like he's obviously talking like in a trance and like for him to even have no like he laughed as if like haha like that's what I saw coming then he says to Aaron, "I'm telling you they were coming to get you I just want to give you a warning."
Christine Schiefer: So like part of him is like I want to warn you but part of me.
Em Schulz: It's like it's like he's sharing two minds in the same body and like Nick is trying to warn him but this thing is like I know what's coming.
Christine Schiefer: He's like watch this it'll be hilarious. Ugh.
Em Schulz: So Nick then just like immediately goes into like a full trance and walks down towards. Zak doesn't even say anything to him walks completely past him even though the spirit box is going off and usually Nick would react to that nick just walks right past him unbothered walks to the bathroom and stares into the mirror until somebody dragged him out. Just stared in the mirror.
Christine Schiefer: Eaah. In the mirror where people see them.
Em Schulz: Yeah uh Billy then goes in Nick's place like they say like Nick you got to get out of there Billy's going in for you immediately Billy starts acting the exact same way immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: Not responding to people wandering in slow motion he starts...
Christine Schiefer: This thing is like fucking with them.
Em Schulz: Oh totally fucking with them he sits on the stairs and starts humming...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: At the same time that weird noises start happening upstairs and then he gets heart palpitations his eyes start watering his hands go numb and he loses track of time and doesn't even remember being near the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: No. I don't I don't like that I like this is when I'm like I don't think I want to visit a place like this.
Em Schulz: As they left because eventually they end up obviously leaving and everyone's fine later but as they left apparently they drove past a house completely on fire...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And then hundreds of crows gathered in the road and refused to let them drive any further.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: And Nick got a really weird text from a random number and it had a bunch of random words in the text that sounded all jarbled like didn't make sense...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: But one of the words was Madeline.
Christine Schiefer: No. Okay, I'm watching this later I don't give a shit what a season an episode is it?
Em Schulz: Uh it's season eight.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I'll find it.
Em Schulz: Uh and I don't know what the episode is because every single time it turns into I feel like every platform has a different episode number.
Christine Schiefer: It has a different yeah so King's Tavern though it's called.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Anyway and that is King's Tavern.
Christine Schiefer: That was a doozy because you can't usually make me like give me goosecam with just a retelling of ghost adventures but I think you did and that's pretty impressive.
Em Schulz: I recommend that episode and of course I watched it at three in the morning so I was like oh god damn it but that was a good one.
Christine Schiefer: Uh wait that's maybe that's the pattern you woke up saying it's gonna be a good day.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh I was like anything's gonna be better than that.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe you set the bar real low.
Em Schulz: I do wonder Christine if we ever go ghost hunting we have to have like a code word or something about like if...
Christine Schiefer: For what?
Em Schulz: If something happens like that to one of us or Eva what do we do?
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean like a like a possession?
Em Schulz: Yeah like if one of us gets attached and starts acting weird and like muttering and humming and...
Christine Schiefer: Who should have the code word then? Like the person who's possessed be like this isn't me or like.
Em Schulz: Like maybe we say maybe we have a code word and like I'll ask if like like let's say you're the possessed one I'll be like are you okay are you there what's the code word?
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ah and if I don't know it.
Em Schulz: Yeah but then maybe like what if they're already I mean they're inside your body maybe they do know the code word.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they hid it really far into my brain good luck finding it.
Em Schulz: Yeah I don't know I do wonder if I mean with our ghost hunting if we ever come into something like that.
Christine Schiefer: I just know my dumb ass would be like shit I forget the code word and you're gonna be like she's possessed and we're like no I literally just forgot the code word can I check my phone?
Em Schulz: I really I really do think if we ever go to a place that suggests that that could happen we just bring I'm not kidding really a spray bottle of holy water and just like like a cat doing something wrong just spritz each other in the face just be like fucking wake up wake up. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And that way we can spray it around if we see think there's a ghost and maybe reveal them like Scooby-Doo style you know.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah and then all of a sudden their body will form like Madeline and her footprints, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, okay perfect so I'll make what's the password is it Postlethwaite? Or is it um...
Em Schulz: It cannot possibly be Postlethwaite.
Christine Schiefer: No I'm never gonna remember that what's a good one what's one from this episode that we'll oh what about corny Sean? Well I feel like... Hmm, what about double entendre?
Em Schulz: I can't say that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah that's a hard one yeah. Um what about did we say anything else today?
Em Schulz: Nope sun-dried tomatoes.
Christine Schiefer: Sun-dried tomatoes there you go. Eva said Postal Service like the band we're not that Em's not gonna remember that one um but good good shout out though.
Em Schulz: It's a good band.
Christine Schiefer: It's a good band um okay sundried tomatoes is the password.
Em Schulz: Sundried tomatoes.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. I'm gonna tell you a story today this is the tragic murder of Seath Jackson.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the name Seath in this case is spelled S-E-A-T-H but it is pronounced like Seath. So his name was Seath Tyler Jackson he was born and raised in Florida and as far as we know he was a very kind-hearted child who loved animals, loved making people laugh and one day dreamed of competing in the ultimate fighting championship, UFC, as a mixed martial artist. His parents Sonia and Scott raised him in a town called Summerfield alongside his two older brothers Scott Jr. and Stephen. Now this takes place in 2011 and Summerfield was usually a quiet rural area surrounded by farmland with a nearby retirement community um and there although crime rates in general were low there were definitely some drug issues in town and there were occasionally some murders. So not like a super tranquil peaceful small town um there were definitely some some bigger issues. So when he was 15 Seath still ran with his childhood friend group from the area. He had quite a few good friends he was pretty popular, his family was really close, and he spent a lot of time four-wheeling which I imagine is what you do in rural Florida and in rural most of America.
Em Schulz: Did you ever go four-wheeling?
Christine Schiefer: I did I sure did uh even though I'm a I'm a German gal I'm also an Ohio gal you know so had my had plenty of four-wheeling days yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh. Did you ever go mudding?
Christine Schiefer: I did only like twice though because I was like this I don't think this is for me.
Em Schulz: I liked it in practice but I was like ooh this is dangerous.
Christine Schiefer: That's it it's kind of like cool I did it a couple times I think that's enough I think I'm I think I'm done uh yeah.
Em Schulz: In college I hung out with a a few like stereotypical redneck guys and they loved mudding and they loved doing pretty much whatever, whatever could get you closest to death and I was like okay yeah I think I'm out. I think I'm out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah at a certain point it's like this is not recreational this is just defying death...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Hopefully, uh. So that's kind of what he did he had that kind of redneck upbringing. One of his friends was 15 year old Amber Wright and she was a girl that Seath had actually began dating on and off in 2011 and when I say on and off, I mean they were incredibly toxic like everybody who knew this couple was like they were a mess. It was like one of those cliche like, toxic but you can't get away from each other type thing.
Em Schulz: Oh you and I know that too well don't we?
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately [laughter] uh since you and I are that way together no. Uh the two of them were not good for each other okay that's like understatement of the century. Wildly a lot of the posts that so this is 2011 so Facebook is huge and a lot of the posts they would. So they'd publicly argue on each other's Facebook walls.
Em Schulz: I love it. I mean so bad, so messy.
Christine Schiefer: It was so messy like one of the YouTubers I watched who covered this um he posted like some screen grabs of like some of the comments and I'll be honest like some of it was like really upsetting...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Like I thought oh this is just gonna be like kind of drama yeah but then I saw which like also nobody else seemed to mention and I'm like did people just kind of brush this under the sweep this under the rug? Maybe? Uh but there were posts that he was writing about like saying the n-word
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: And saying like people need to go back like some really extremely racist shit. I was like like stuff I'm not even gonna pretend to repeat her. Um and I was like and but but that was kind of lower down like in the screen grab and like they were focusing on the top part of and I was like does anyone see that comment? Like that... what nobody's gonna mention that? It was like really bad, uh, so oh by the way the the channel I watched was Beyond Evil um he did a really good uh good coverage of this case. But yeah so they were posting on each other's walls like arguing bickering name calling he was calling her a slut and she was saying like you know I mean it just was like real and that was like the least of it it was very extreme, it was they were accusing each other of cheating and all this nonsense. Um. So Seath's parents for obvious reasons did not like him seeing Amber because both of them were not having a good time um...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah it was just like this isn't good for either of you. So it was probably a bit of a relief when they seemed to finally break it off for good um and Amber got a new boyfriend, uh, his name was Mike Bargo he was 18 and even though she had found a new guy uh Seath was still kind of in the periphery like she wanted to kind of keep the drama going right like she...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She wouldn't just let it die out. Like they were like continuing to fight on Facebook and now she had this new boyfriend and he was heartbroken and it just got even messier than it was before. So Amber began telling Mike her new boyfriend about Seath saying he physically and emotionally abused her. Um according to people who knew Seath knew their relationship very well these were just lies she was kind of whether they were like okay most people claim these are lies so I can't say one way or another right but... Basically it became pretty clear that she was just trying to rile her boyfriend up her current boyfriend up about Seath and like.
Em Schulz: Ooh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Stoke the fire.
Em Schulz: Messy, messy, messy, messy.
Christine Schiefer: Messy, messy, messy, messy, messy. She's trying to stoke the fire there and that's what she did uh according to those who knew and loved Seath he'd never would have laid a hand on her physically or emotionally although some of these wall posts I was like that's pretty damaging stuff.
Em Schulz: It feels damning whether or not he would, it doesn't help.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah it feels like both of them were really toxic with one another so I don't know where that line was um but either way Amber seemed to sort of enjoy pitting Seath and Mike against each other like her ex-boyfriend and her new boy. And soon...
Em Schulz: And she like eats up on the jealousy she's like she wants them to claim her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly right. Right she it's like fighting over her exactly. So soon there was this very very outright animosity between both Seath and Mike. Mike allegedly began making threats against Seath claiming he would shoot him claiming he would burn his house down.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah people who knew Mike would later report that he did actually carry a gun on him often so this is like a real threat this isn't just like saying dumb shit...
Em Schulz: Oh. Oof.
Christine Schiefer: It's like an actual alarming threat. Seath and Mike even got into several brawls like full-on fistfights and apparently Seath won which of course then made Mike even more pissed off like this guy had bested him and now he felt even more like he had to, you know, reclaim his honor basically.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so Seath's mother was who later commented that once um uh she overheard Mike confronting Seath in front of their house and say "I have a bullet with your name on it" to her son and she was like...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: You better get out of this whole group. Um, she was like very anxious for him but just hope that like because he and Amber were broken up that maybe like over time this would just die down. You know we've covered this before but like threats of violence and stalking and stuff does not usually get get very far if you go to the police because, you know, it's a terrible like catch-22 of something has to happen first you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah they have to wait to catch you in the act.
Christine Schiefer: Well then it's too late. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was kind of one of those um basically parents stuck between a rock and a hard place they don't know what to do about this. Then one day Seath disappeared.
Em Schulz: Oyy. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Seath's mom knew something was wrong because he always called if he was going to be late or wasn't coming home so she pretty quickly called the police to report Seath missing in early April of 2011. She had last heard from him the night before while texting with him and he had stopped responding and then she never heard from him again. So at first police were like there's no way this is foul play, uh he's just a runaway you know and like the crowd he runs with I'm sure that he'll be back or he's fine he's just decided to run off somewhere. But his mom Sonia knew something must have happened to him and that the police were looking in the wrong direction. So while they were looking into the runaway aspect of it she decided she was going to try to track down Seath herself. So of course first thing she did was reach out to his friends hoping one of them had seen or heard from him and one of the teenagers she texted was of course Amber Wright his ex-girlfriend. Which I get.
Em Schulz: She was like desperate and was like maybe maybe they know each other maybe she knows.
Christine Schiefer: Have you seen him? Yeah because well... Because he was so tied up in like her drama and all that that like you know I mean could be very well possible that she had heard from him. And so before, before he had disappeared Seath had actually told Sonia that he planned to meet up with Amber that night.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So as far as Sonia knew they had seen each other so she's like Amber have you seen him? And Amber said yes I have I saw Seath last night and I was with our mutual friend 18 year old Charlie Eley and so Sonia was like okay good so at least we have like a pinpoint he was with you last night at least we know that. So she gets in touch with the police and they locate Amber and Charlie saying okay you said you saw him last night can you give us a little bit of information on Seath's whereabouts what kind of place he was in. And they told the police yeah we spent a little time with Seath and then uh we dropped him off about a quarter mile down the road from Amber's house at an intersection uh near a mobile home community because Seath was talking on the phone with his mom and was in some disagreement and stormed off and left them behind. And Sonia was like, mmm nope that didn't happen. That seems.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Like a stupid excuse since the mom can literally verify...
Em Schulz: Sure, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Whether or not she was having an argument on the phone with her own son but they said yes he was on the phone he was in a fight with his mom so he walked away. And Sonia was like nope that did not happen. So two days after Seath's disappearance Amber's mom Mrs. Wright, called the police with a shocking revelation her son 16 year old Kyle Hooper had seen a report about Seath being missing on tv and told his mom I saw him get murdered.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: And so she, thank God, just immediately called the police and said "hey my son says that he," and this is Amber's brother so she goes, "my son said that he witnessed uh Seath's murder." And so of course they're like bring him in right away. So police rushed to the Wright home, the W Wright home, to get the story. They bring Kyle into the sheriff's office and he was very anxious visibly so and detectives described him as disturbed by what he had witnessed for obvious reasons. And when they asked him Kyle told detectives that Mike Bargo, Amber's new boyfriend, had attacked Seath and after a little bit of pressing uh he also admitted to participating in the attack just a little bit.
Em Schulz: Kyle did?
Christine Schiefer: He sure did.
Em Schulz: Wow, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And yeah. Yes the tables are turning a bit and so he admits that he was actually a little more involved than he originally claimed he said he actually had hit Seath over the head with a stick.
Em Schulz: Uh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah and so they're like, well that's not good. And he goes, "Yeah, yeah. But it was Mike who actually shot Seath not me."
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And so now they're... Sorry go ahead.
Em Schulz: Is this is a situation maybe you'll tell me later but is this a situation where if Kyle didn't say anything, they would have all gotten away with it? Bbecause it sounds like out of guilt he just kind of came out of him?
Christine Schiefer: It did I definitely think he just couldn't stand it. I don't think they would have gotten away with it very long.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like you'll see why, but...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But, I think the fact that he folded so quickly is the only reason that like everything went so fast because I feel like you're totally right if he hadn't it probably would have been a lot more investigating but he basically just handed them the answers on a platter.
Em Schulz: But to even admit that he was involved it's like ooh my God like you really must have been like the guilt must have this must have been eating him alive.
Christine Schiefer: This must have been and it's like day a day like a couple days later it's not like uh he's been living with it for months.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know like he really... And according to quite a few sources he was the only one who really felt very guilty about this, like who lived with the remorse of it, um. And so that's probably why he like immediately broke down and gave them everything they wanted to know. So he says, "Well yeah. I hit him with a stick, but Mike's the one who actually fatally shot him." And they were like okay this feels like we're missing a lot of pieces here like you're giving us a story there's a lot of gaps and things weren't totally making sense. So investigators were like you got to tell us the whole truth we're gonna find out one way or another so you better spit it out right here right now.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And there's actually footage of Kyle's mom in the interrogation room and she is so overwhelmed. Uh, and she's literally watching her son describe a murder that he admitted to being part of, which must just be like...
Em Schulz: Ugh. I can't imagine.
Christine Schiefer: She didn't think that was where this was going, right. So suddenly her phone rings she checks her phone she goes, "I need to step out of the room." And they said, do you have our permission, do you have- I'm sorry, "Do we have your permission to continue questioning your son?" because you're the obviously legal guardian and he's 16. And she gives the detectives explicit permission to continue questioning her son. So. She leaves the room and after a bit more pressing, uh, by the police Kyle unravels and tells the entire story start to finish. He said he was involved in a plot to quote "jump Seath" along with his sister Amber, and uh, aka Seath's ex-girlfriend.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Her boyfriend Mike Bargo, and their other friends Justin "Roach" Soto, and Charlie Ely.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, a whole group. Now Mike Bargo, the boyfriend, was supposedly the ringleader who orchestrated the attack. And Kyle said that he only participated in the attack because he had heard that Seath had previously beaten Amber on multiple occasions, was like very abusive toward her, and it was his sister so he felt defensive and he thought, "well I guess, I guess he deserves it" if, uh, if that's how he's treating his sister. And so he's all he also was told that Seath threatened to burn his house down, like burn his and Amber's house down, even though we already know we know now that Mike was the one threatening that to Seath not the other way around, but they were trying to rile him up basically saying like, "he wants to burn our house down, he beat me." This is Amber talking.
Em Schulz: Yeah like they're just trying to trying to get him on their side yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. They're trying to goad him into this. And so when Mike asked Kyle to participate, to defend his sister he agreed and he said he did not expect Mike to actually kill Seath. Uh, Kyle claimed to be uninvolved in disposing of Seath's remains but he said Mike had mentioned a quarry by a nearby sporting goods store. So, soon the detective, uh, brought in and interviewed all the other people that Kyle had implicated. And Charlie Ely told investigators that she and Amber met up with Seath at a street corner under false pretenses, that Amber had texted him that she wanted to meet up and work things out between them.
Em Schulz: Aha.
Christine Schiefer: So basically she was like luring him in.
Em Schulz: And this is the night that Seath's mom, like knew that they were gonna meet up.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So basically Seath had told his mom, "Hey I'm meeting up with Amber tonight just FYI," and then she never heard from him again. So it's looking looking bad. So, she continued, Charlie, oh by the way Charlie is, uh, a girl. Identifies as a girl.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Charlie told police that Amber had texted Seath that you know she had talked to Charlie about everything, and was bringing Charlie along as emotional support but she wanted to meet up with him and go over everything. And that way, the idea was that when Seath arrived and saw Charlie and Amber that he wasn't like suspicious why there was another person there.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, she's here for moral support. And she also typed, "“but don’t tell anyone what’s going on bc [because] I wanna make Sure we can work things out before anyone knows–Don’t Sweat It."
Em Schulz: Uhh.
Christine Schiefer: But Seath was a little... Yeah. So she basically said like, don't say where you're going, uh. But Seath, he knew a little better he, he suspected something was going on he actually texted Amber, "Amber if you have me jumpt i will never give you the time of day so if i git [get] jumpt say good bye allrite." So basically he was like if this is like some plot to beat me up, like we're done I'm not speaking to you anymore. But Amber was like no, no I just want to work things out, you know I still care about you. And so he, the heartbroken teen, met up with her. So together Amber and Charlie lured Seath back to Charlie's house where the attack took place and back at Charlie's house Kyle, Roach, and Mike were all lying in wait for Seath to arrive.
Christine Schiefer: Charlie insisted to police that she and Amber went into a bedroom during the attack and that they hid there during the attack, so they weren't really part of it. She said that Amber and Seath were talking in the house when Kyle came out of nowhere to hit Seath, and she said Seath looked woozy and Kyle yelled, "get the fuck out!" At which point she and Amber ran for the bedroom. They allegedly heard gunshots and spent the whole night in the bedroom, and then when they woke up they allegedly, according to their own story, smelled bleach in the house and noticed it had been cleaned up but knew nothing about Seath's fate or whereabouts.
Em Schulz: That's not even a good cover-up story.
Christine Schiefer: It's not.
Em Schulz: It's like not so you weren't worried after you heard gunshots about someone that you claim to love?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. You just thought like, I'm sure everything's fine.
Em Schulz: Must've skedaddled.
Christine Schiefer: It smells like bleach in here must be cleaning up. Yeah, bizarro.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So according to her, according to Charlie, Mike did come into the bedroom and waved the revolver around while he told the women he would kill them too if they said anything about the attack, which is why they didn't come forward.
Em Schulz: Oop.
Christine Schiefer: Investigators said they felt she was, "minimizing her involvement in the attack," but they needed more details to prove it. So next of course they bring in Amber. Now Amber is telling basically the same story she's like, "Charlie led me to a bedroom when the attack began." She said, "I was so distraught during the attack that I was crying, I almost threw up, then I heard gunshots." And she said, "We closed ourselves off in this bedroom, shut the door." Here's the issue. They got to the house discovered the bedroom did not have a door.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So there is no possible way that her story of locking herself in the bedroom or closing, closing herself off in the bedroom it just wasn't going to happen. And this is like a mobile home it's not like a big huge house right like they're in the same vicinity.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So if there's a room without a door like they're in the action.
Em Schulz: Yes. got it, got it, got it.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, yeah. So they're not like, you know, off in some distant wing of the house. Like they're, they're right there. And so they would have had basically a full view of the entire attack. So at a certain point they're lying. The young men who were interviewed or interrogated also told investigators that Charlie and Amber were very much involved and actually helped them clean up the scene after Seath was killed. Uh, Amber....
Em Schulz: Insane.
Christine Schiefer: Finally admitted. She, so she goes, "Oh, I woke up and smelled bleach." Well, pretty soon she admits, no, actually I was the one who got the bleach and started scrubbing.
Em Schulz: I was the one covered in bleach. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Literally. I'm the reason the place smelled like bleach. Oops. I forgot to mention that. [laughter] Um, she then like, kind of switched tactics and started sort of tearfully telling the lead detective that Seath had hurt her. Uh, she claimed he hit her, lied to her about giving her an STD to upset her, took all her friends, so none of them would talk to her anymore. And when Detective asked, is that why you participated in this attack? Like, because you were mad at Seath? She said she actually quote, "Didn't have a reason for her involvement."
Em Schulz: That's sick. That's crazy.
Christine Shiefer: Yeah. Its like at least...
Em Schulz: I mean, like, no answer was gonna be a good answer. But that's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Right. But at least commit to your fake story or whatever. I don't know. It's just like, oh, okay. She's not even, doesn't even have a fake reason why she participated makes it so much clear.
Em Schulz: So you just were bored? That's the reason? You were bored?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Ooh, so next they bring in Mike, right? The alleged ring, ringleader of this whole thing. And he is, uh, not looking good. He has like cuts on his face. He has scratches on his hands. We don't know if those are defensive wounds from Seath, but, uh, that's what it looks like, that maybe someone was fighting him back and he, you know, bruises and cuts and scrapes. Uh, but he refused to discuss the marks. Finally, investigators interview Roach, who was the oldest of the group. He was 20. And you know, he, it's kind of confusing in some of the sources because they mentioned these kids as a group of teenagers or group of kids, but he's obviously an adult technically. But basically he's just getting lumped in as like one of the teens.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: He tried to deny his involvement, but investigators explained to him that he was, it's, it's too late. You're already fully implicated. Everyone else mentioned your name, but nice try. So he immediately gave up. He told investigators during the interview, "I just wanted to get my life together. I was planning on going to the military and everything, but that's fucking out of the picture now." Yep.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That feels so beggy of like, oh, well it's your fault. I can't do any of this stuff. It's like, mmm, no one else committed murder.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, why did you have to catch? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like you're ruining my life because I was about to be a good person. It's like, well, you could have been a good person a couple days ago you.
Christine Schiefer: You coulda. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Not my problem.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so it's pretty sad. He, he claimed, he gathered wood for a bonfire to dispose of Seath's remains. And neighbors did corroborate that there was an enormous bonfire that night that burned for hours, and this was pretty unusual. Um, but neighbors also said there was so much laughing and music, they just assumed...
Em Schulz: That's so weird.
Christine Schiefer: That it was a big party, but no, that's just how they were behaving after they murdered Seath.
Em Schulz: Laughing. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Like, right.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine.
Christine Schiefer: Like, to think, oh, a huge bonfire. That's weird. But I guess they all sound like they're having a great time, so I'm sure nothing's going wrong.
Em Schulz: Oof. Sick.
Christine Schiefer: It is sick. It's really sick. Yeah. So Mike, the ringleader reportedly removed Seath's teeth, uh, after he was killed to prevent future identification and then broke his knees to force his remains...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Into a duffle bag to try and discretely transport him from the house to the fire.
Em Schulz: This. This is beyond, this isn't even, I mean, I don't have to tell you this, but just in case you're wondering where my brain is.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like. It's, it's not that like I'm gonna excusing... murder. But it's one thing to be a hothead teenager who's like, I'm gonna do this thing and to react. But there is really not, not a lot of things more intimate than pulling someone's teeth out and breaking their knees to shove them somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, seriously.
Em Schulz: That's not a, that's not an impulsive hotheaded thought. That's a, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Right? It's like cold, calculated.
Em Schulz: I, maybe he impulsive and now he's forced into the situation, but it's like h-how to even, I couldn't do that. Like.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mmm. Hell no.
Em Schulz: I couldn't pull someone's teeth out. I, I couldn't do it. Even if I got myself in a situation where it was that or go to jail, I'd be like, obviously jail is what's happening.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I agree.
Em Schulz: Like, there's something really sinister.
Christine Schiefer: It does, it feels so calculated and so premeditated that there's just no way around it. Like, none of these people can argue like, oh, I was, I got roped in by accident. Like, this is all so clearly... The fact that they even had a bonfire and were laughing and joking and staying up all night drinking.
Em Schulz: Oh, God. Like, talk about planned. And how do you even, I, I couldn't, I couldn't fake laugh.
Christine Schiefer: I couldn't even pretend.
Em Schulz: I couldn't do anything, but... I couldn't do anything except scream and cry.
Christine Schiefer: And you and I are chameleons. And we could not, this is too far. Like if I were, this is a situation where I'm like, Kate, uh, can't, can't make, can't chameleon into this one. N-Nope. Not having a fun time at this bonfire.
Em Schulz: There's, there's no, yeah. Even if my impulsivity got me to a point of killing somebody, no. I don't care how much just one laugh would help me recover or make me look better, I couldn't do it.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Yeah. So that's exactly it. And it, it's so gross. The whole story is just sick and like the, anyway, yes. Long story short, I fully agree.
Em Schulz: Um, so sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. I, I'm glad. I love he- You said, in case you're wondering where my head is at, I would like you to know, I'm always wondering where your head is at, and you can always tell me.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's so kind.
Christine Schiefer: Because I'm always happy to know.
Em Schulz: Wow. Well, I'll... I'll remember that.
Christine Schiefer: Especially when my head's at the same spot and I'm like, well, look at us. Aw.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's nice to know that I'm walking into a, a room where I'm gonna immediately be validated.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I I'm here. Hi.
Em Schulz: This is how I feel. This is how I feel too.
Christine Schiefer: Me too. And I know it looked like a scary lingerie store, [laughter] but it's me behind the curtain and I'm gonna dispense all my wisdom.
Em Schulz: It was actually someone who just wanted to tell me that he is an artist behind the bar the entire time.
Christine Schiefer: Aw. Poor guy. Um, okay. So allegedly Mike removed Seath's teeth, uh, then broke his knees, uh, in the bathtub of the house to get him into a duffle bag so that he could get him from the house to the bonfire. Once they burned his body down to just bone fragments. Um, they put the final remains inside paint buckets, and then they tossed the paint buckets into a limestone quarry.
Em Schulz: Brutal.
Christine Schiefer: So, yikes, all five of them, five of them were immediately arrested for murder and investigators began building their case. There's footage of the group talking while they aren't in, while police are not in the room. Uh, which I'm always just so shocked that people don't get it, that they're always watching you. Like if you're in interrogation room, you're on camera.
Em Schulz: The one place you shouldn't speak is a fucking police station. What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: It's outrageous. Especially a young person. I'm like, you know how cameras work and stuff, right? Like, you know, you're on camera. Um, I, but yeah, so it's just wild to me.
Em Schulz: Is like... To do, I mean, how many hours do you think all that effort went in after the killing? If, like, the bleaching an entire place, breaking someone's knees and taking out their teeth, shoving them into a thing, putting them into another thing, putting rocks in that thing, bringing it to a quarry. Like, how many hours of effort? And this is where I, I have a lot of dreams where, um, I've committed a murder and now I have to get myself outta the situation that's like a regular dream of mine. Which I'm sure is like some, like loss of control, fear or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But in those dreams, my... 90% of the dream is me just waiting second by second by second for somebody to knock on the door because I've been found out.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: It's like I can't. Like, to like, the fact that they, like Amber just like woke up and like had fucking breakfast or something. And then just, you know, when she got the text from Seath's mom being like, "have you seen him?"
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Yeah.
Em Schulz: That had to be like, if, if that didn't leave a massive pit in her stomach of like, it's happening. Like it... I, I just don't, I just can't comprehend a person not responding with just utter guilt.
Christine Schiefer: It's..You know it's... It's interesting you say that because literally the next line is that when she was in the room, the interrogation room by herself, or at least not with police, she totally, completely did not understand like what kind of trouble she was in. She like, had no idea.
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: She was just like super casual. And she complained tearfully to her friends, quote, "if I get five years, I'll be 20 by the time I get out." Uh, girl.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow. She's fully just devoid of reality.
Christine Schiefer: Girl. You have no idea what's coming. And...
Em Schulz: And no guilt just to be like, oh, poor me.
Christine Schiefer: No, but it's not about him. Exactly. It's not about the actual murder. It's like, about like, oh man, now I have to go to jail.
Em Schulz: What, I have to go to jail and what...
Christine Schiefer: What about prom?
Em Schulz: Worst case scenario, I'll be out before I still can't drink. Like.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Right? It's like I, I cannot believe the, the lack of understanding here. Um, so of course, uh, detectives go to the crime scene. A forensics team collects shoe print evidence, blood evidence, shell casings from the gun. They recover small fragments of human male bones in the fire pit. So this is all adding up. Um, and investigators were actually pretty shaken by this. Uh, they, I don't know. I don't know why? I guess it's just like one of those cases that really stuck with detectives because they kept hearing about from all these kids about what had happened.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then they actually found the bonfire with the bon fragments and the, it, it, it apparently, uh, I don't know, struck them pretty hard. They also found shoe print evidence and impressions from the paint buckets in the sand on the route to the quarry. So they kind of knew, okay, that part's true too. And then inside the quarry they recovered the buckets and Seath's remains within. And, uh, the divers and the, the forensic team were very distraught by this whole situation. And, uh, the remains were positively linked to Seath using DNA and then a sixth person got involved. So there's... A sixth person in this group.
Em Schulz: Oh, I was about to say this is the most, I was gonna say this is the most open and closed case you've ever handled.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you are not wrong though. Like it is. There's just... Unfortunately one more person who was also involved. So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This guy was 38-year-old James Young Havens III, and he actually was Amber's former stepmothe-stepfather. Like he had...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Been with her mom for a while. So he was her stepdad or like former stepdad.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And he was known to spend a lot of time at Charlie's place, uh, with the rest of the teens. I mean, not rest of the teens 'cause he's 38...
Em Schulz: Woah.
Christine Schiefer: But like with the teens also already not a good look. Um, and he actually ended up being charged with accessory after the fact because he helped the other five suspects dispose of Seath's remains. Uh, what a nice father figure. Um, he reportedly.
Em Schulz: I mean why, like how her mom is like, you have full permission to get whatever information you need out of him.
Christine Schiefer: Like. Isn't that crazy?
Em Schulz: It's like we, yeah. Yowza.
Christine Schiefer: God, I mean, okay, so think about it. The mom who called the police, her son was the one who said, Hey, I watched this happen.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Then she finds out, oh wait, he was actually involved. Then she finds out, oh, Amber was like, kind of a huge part of this, my, my daughter. And now she finds out, oh, my ex was also involved. Like, this is crazy for this woman. She's like...
Em Schulz: This poor woman. Yeah. She, like everyone plays of...
Christine Schiefer: Just like, all three.
Em Schulz: To know that all three of them were involved in a murder, like of the same, like all of them got together when she wasn't around.
Christine Schiefer: Like conspired. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Some... They had to wait for her to like go upstairs and like when she was in the bathroom, they all like whispered about the plan. Like.
Christine Schiefer: They were like, Hey.
Em Schulz: It's like, so... In her own house, under her own roof, like everyone that she should feel the safest with...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is... I hope that girl, wherever she is, I hope that woman is doing okay.
Christine Schiefer: I do too. I, I don't know. 'Cause it doesn't end well for everybody. But, uh, he, this ex of hers, so Amber's former stepdad reportedly drove Mike and Kyle to the quarry to abandon Seath's remains and even coached them on how to properly clean up a crime scene. Uh, he also drove Mike out of.
Em Schulz: Like in case you do this again?
Christine Schiefer: No, like while they were cleaning, he was like, this is how you should clean up the crime scene, like use bleach, et cetera. Um, to make sure you don't get caught. And he also drove Mike out of town so that he wouldn't get arrested. And he claimed when he was brought in, uh, he claimed he didn't know what was in the buckets. Uh, when he drove them into the quarry. Which is like, okay. Uh, and he was even initially declared incompetent to stand trial.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And we don't know exactly what this means, at least Ccha and I don't, but he was sent to competency restoration treatment. Which I assume means like some sort of mental health treatment or, you know, for whatever reason he was declared not fit for trial. He was apparently treated so that he would be competent for trial. And he was then declared fit for trial and he pled guilty to his charges in 2018. And...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: When that happened, Seath's extended family gathered with his parents when a detective came to their home to tell them that Seath's remains had been positively identified, their worst nightmare had come true. This was their son. And Sonia's family told the detective that Sonia had still held out hope, right? Because I feel like we see that a lot. Like even if everything looks bad, you just have that, you have to, you have that glimmer of hope that like maybe somehow they'll find him and he'll be okay.
Em Schulz: Well, like if no one says he's dead, then...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm
Em Schulz: That he could be alive. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There's still a chance. And so that's what she had hoped. But of course that didn't end up happening. They actually ultimately, uh, decided to tell her only an extremely abridged version of what happened at first because they wanted to wait for a therapist to, to really sit down with them and like, uh, you know, do the, have that conversation with her. So when the trial began, Charlie and her family did not, also, did not seem to grasp how serious this accusation was. Um, investigators described them, described her and her family laughing after court hearings, chitchatting about where they'd go for dinner that night, where they'd go to celebrate once she was acquitted of first degree murder.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and she, yeah, she was like fully confident that like she had nothing. She was totally guiltless the court would agree. And guess what? She was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. So...
Em Schulz: Fucking good.
Christine Schiefer: That must have been a shock.
Em Schulz: That's also like kind of a sick part to it too, is like you expect, well you don't expect it, but like if anyone is going to assume that this isn't that big of a deal compared to what it is, it would be the children. But for like Charlie's own family, for all of them to be like.
Christine Schiefer: Like, yeah, that's a great point. Like the parents.
Em Schulz: And her, like, why, why are your... No wonder she didn't fucking realize how bad murder is if both of them are like, oh, we're gonna go to Olive Garden and you know.
Christine Schiefer: I was about to say! We're about we're gonna go to Olive Garden to celebrate. Yeah. That was exactly my thought. Like is does not, do none of them have an understanding of what first degree murder charges mean? I guess not.
Em Schulz: Maybe they, like, maybe they didn't know and they were like trying to like keep her, like keep their own kid at ease.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: But like, if, if that happened with my kid, if my kid was on trial for murder, I could not fake that that well.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: I could not be like, oh, let's go get something to eat. We'll be fine. I'm like, I would be a fucking mess. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Or just just like joking and laughing.
Em Schulz: My kid would know how bad it was.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: My kid would know how bad this was based on me not being able to keep it together at the very least.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I will tell you how big you fucked up, right? Like, I'm not gonna pretend like this is not a big deal. And so it's just so wild to me. And so of course this came as like a total shock and when she was crying, Charlie. at her sentencing, Sonia, um, Seath's mom spoke and said, I have no sympathy for the tears you shed, they have not been for Seath, but rather for what's happened to you and that.
Em Schulz: 'Cause you can't make it to Olive Garden tonight.
Christine Schiefer: So true for Amber. Yeah. I know for Amber, Charlie, like they're all just kind of upset that they have to go to jail now. And it's like, wait, what did you think would happen?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It just, I can't wrap my head around it. Um, so Justin "Roach" Soto was also found guilty of first degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison as well. Amber and Kyle, siblings, were tried together in 2012 and although the entire group identified Mike as the orchestrator of the attack, investigators felt that Amber likely played a large part in it behind the scenes. She was the one who was kind of riling Mike up about Seath and kind of telling these stories about how he had beaten her. Um, he had, she was like stoking the fire like we talked about. She was the one who lured Seath in with her text. So investigators questioned whether everything Amber said Seath actually did was true, or whether she was just kind of like exaggerating or making up the stories to get Mike worked up enough to fight and attack Seath. And of course Amber had, like I said, done the, the whole, you know, getting him there. So even without her, this would never have even happened this way because she's the one who lured him in and lied and said, I'm, uh, I just wanna get back together. And it was a flat out lie.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So even without a gun, multiple people jumping, one person could easily have escalated fatally. And so basically they were saying just 'cause Amber wasn't holding a gun, like she, or didn't fire the shots, like she kind of orchestrated all this. So it's not that she, uh.
Em Schulz: Just Facebook comments alone.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it's bad, it's bad, it looks really bad. And investigators also felt, which we've talked about already, that Amber appeared to lack any sort of remorse throughout the entire investigation. Like didn't really seem phased about Seath or his family. Um, she just cried about the trouble she was in. Right. Not like being sad or regretting what she had done.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: One investigator said for a person that young to be involved in something so gruesome, either she was hiding her feelings or she was just a heartless individual. However, her brother, by the way, Kyle Hooper, the one who told his mom like, I saw this happen and then immediately spilled his guts. He seemed to fully regret his involvement and fully regret Seath's death. And I kind of mentioned that earlier, that he was basically the only one that investigators felt had any sort of remorse or felt bad at all...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: About this. And he was the one who kind of claimed to have done it because his little or his sister was beaten by this guy. Right. And he was like, I just got, you know, it was almost like he'd kind of gotten roped into it. Yeah. The lead detective said of Kyle, I hate to say it, but I almost feel bad for him because he was the only one that was remorseful, but it was too late. And I say yes, and don't waste too much time feeling bad for him because he could have stopped this and he didn't. So, you know, at a certain point you... Did what you did.
Em Schulz: What did the stepdad Get? I imagine jail time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay, here we go. Okay. So it wasn't in my notes, but I looked it up. Um, and according to, uh, the Ocala Star Banner, 44... Year... Old James Young Havens, a third pleaded guilty and faced 30 years for helping the teens dispose of the body.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So that's all I know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Alright.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if, um, he was given the 30 years, but that seems to be like the, okay, so it says he faces up to 30 years and I'm, for some reason nobody's really giving me an actual number. But, uh, it looks like he at least went to prison for a while.
Em Schulz: Mm, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Yeah. Sorry, sorry, I don't have a clearer answer for you there.
Em Schulz: That's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Um, okay. So both siblings, Amber and Kyle were, were found guilty and of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just shocking. Uh, Mike's trial, the, the boyfriend, the ringleader began in 2013 and he faced the death penalty and the detective who spent time in court. Oh, I also wanna add that even though some of these people were teenagers, they were all tried as adults, just for clarity's sake.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the detective who spent time in court with Mike said that he was very arrogant, even prideful, saying "He's smirky, he thinks he's a star." Ugh. And so there was like absolutely no remorse once again from this guy. So Mike was found guilty, he was sentenced to death. Uh, and in the meantime, the other defendants began filing appeals. Um, there were a few appeals that actually worked because the court took pity on the, the defendant's ages, even though they were tried as adults.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so Charlie, for, uh, for her case, her conviction was overturned entirely based on complaints of ineffective counsel at trial. And actually her attorney that she had had was barred from practicing law in 2018. And apparently...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: During mult- Yeah. And during multiple times during the trial, he had failed to object on Charlie's behalf when he absolutely should have. And so basically she took a deal in 2020 and pleaded guilty to second degree murder, which offered a new 10 year sentence. And she had already spent nine years in prison. So now she was released.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So investigators on the case said they felt she should still be in prison because Seath would never get the chance to come home, but they also said, you know what, we did our jobs, we have to let the court do their job and respect their decisions. So upon her release, her defense attorney said it's a terrible tragedy and Charlie is just another victim of Michael Bargo and company. I don't know about that to be honest, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She feels like it was under her roof. Okay. She feels terrible for the Jackson family. This is not a day to celebrate. Okay, well on that, I agree. Uh, Seath's mother did not share that sentiment telling the media she was angry that Charlie was released, but did not wanna discuss it any further. And the other perpetrators of the attack remain in prison to this day, they're serving life sentences. Uh, in 2021, courts denied an appeal to overturn Mike Bargo sentencing based on mental conditions that were apparently not considered during trial, but his sentence was upheld. Um, and he remains on death row. So at Seath's funeral, the pastor presiding encouraged the congregation, uh, which was made up largely of other teenagers who knew and cared about Seath to remember the good things, instead of focusing of course, on Seath's tragic end. He's remembered as a typical fun loving teenager, compassionate to animals, good to his brothers, a hard worker, a faithful friend. You know, there's obviously some shit I saw in his posts that never gets addressed, but Okay. Um, according to the pastor, his mother said that the only fault he had was that he never saw a stray animal. He didn't love. He was the same way with his friends. And, uh, that is the story. I mean, it's really twisted.
Em Schulz: Wow. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Teenagers, man.
Em Schulz: I don't know about the other, the one who got out after 10 years or whatever. I wonder.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'd like to hear if they have any remorse or like, I'd like to know if they're faking it too, but.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I mean, their, their lawyer said yes, but of course they did. Right? Like her...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Her lawyer said, oh, she feels terrible, but it's like, well, you have to say that. So I don't know if that's true or not.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's also, I mean, they didn't seem to have a problem not hiding, but they had no remorse the first time around.
Christine Schiefer: Right. So I'm like, and then you're like, but they were also like teenagers...
Em Schulz: Little bit.
Christine Schiefer: So maybe they didn't even realize. Yeah. I don't know, man. It's crazy.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: But be careful out there folks.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Be alert and... that's it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, that's it. Nothing else. Just be alert. I was.
Em Schulz: Like, do I keep going or do we just end on a high? [laughter] That's a, that's a good one. Be alert. That's, that's today's lesson A is for alert...
Christine Schiefer: Honestly...
Em Schulz: B we will find out, we'll find out next week what B stands for.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody knows. I can't wait to find out.
Em Schulz: Uh, if you would like to follow us on, um, you know, our yapathon where we just talk and talk and talk, [laughter] you can come hang out with us, uh, on Patreon where I will definitely be trying to get to the bottom of this why a horse ends with E thing. [laughter] And uh, until then we are, we only have a few shows left if you happen to be in the Minneapolis, Milwaukee area or in New England, or Nope, not Los Angeles is sold out, so Oh, are all them sold out?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well Milwaukee's the only one that's not.
Em Schulz: If you happen to be in Milwaukee, this is your last chance to see On the Rocks and then, uh, when we come back in the fall it will be a completely different show we will be retiring On the Rocks so if you can please come see us. And until then, and...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
