[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: What... Hi.
Em Schulz: I'm covering my mouth, so you can finally start this without me just screaming unnecessary things.
Christine Schiefer: I looked at my own reflection, I thought you made a face like The Scream by Edvard Munch that...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Oh, I just take one look and I just ugh couldn't bear it any longer.
Christine Schiefer: Stopped you in your tracks.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Oh, well, I wanted to... Uh, I was trying to have... Let you have your moment before I just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thanks.
Em Schulz: Monopolized the experience.
Christine Schiefer: Happy Groundhogs Day.
Em Schulz: Oh. Thank you. Um, big day. I pri... I practice privately.
Christine Schiefer: Big... Big day.
Em Schulz: Or what's that... I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, do you [chuckle] practice privately?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, is there... Do we have a result on... Did he come out?
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea. The billboards in Ohio or the, the signs about the highway said, "You need to buckle your seat belt and avoid road rage... "
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: "Happy Groundhog Day." And I said, "Okay."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: A lot of messages, they...
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I feel like a lot of PSAs just all chipped in on the one billboard. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You should've seen when Taylor Swift has come in to town, every single sign on the highway, like, those like, uh, emergency alert signs were like T Swift puns. Um, I thought it was hilarious. A lot of people were very irritated, but I thought they were great.
Em Schulz: Oh, I would've loved that. I love a pun. I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Somebody in that office is a millennial who's having a... The time of their lives making these signs.
Em Schulz: I feel like, um, for Groundhogs Day, we could've done a lot of puns. I feel like Punxsutawney Phil, there should have been like a rhyme...
Christine Schiefer: I think the...
Em Schulz: By now he's gotta have a rhyme.
Christine Schiefer: I think the joke was like Groundhog Day... I mean I just thought for a second and probably I'm butchering it, but it was like, "Groundhog... It's Groundhog Day again. Don't... "
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: "Get angry on the road." Or... I don't know. It was something, it was like about the movie Groundhog... I don't... I...
Em Schulz: Sure. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, why do you drink this week, Emothy? Let's...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Let's dive into it. Let's really get into the nitty-gritty.
Em Schulz: Uh, well, I drink a root beer to the... At 10:00 AM, or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's new.
Em Schulz: Well, I am trying to... Uh... I... Several elements are involved in this, but the main one is that for Christmas I requested, um, from Allison's family, my algorithm knows me so well, they have been posting about like a root beer club where you can like pay for an annual membership, and like every month they'll send you a new creative different root beer...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: There's a box for everything.
Em Schulz: I know. So I asked Allison's family for it for Christmas. Um, and I'm, I'm... We're... I'm accidentally hav... Creating a bit of a, an overstock in my fridge, so I've really gotta get into the root beer. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like that's not for the faint of heart, that's not for like the average root beer lover. You gotta be like... You gotta be like...
Em Schulz: Well, I'm really a cream soda person, but they only had a root beer...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Crate membership. Which is fine, I still... I like root beer. I just have... Uh, it's not my top, in my top three. But I wanna learn to like root beer because any time I've gone to one of those like, like Rocket Fizz or old-fashioned soda shops, they... Have you been to a Rocket Fizz? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like they've always got such a, an array of soda, specifically root beer, and I always wanna know what they're all about, but I'm too afraid to buy all of them. So this will help me, uh, figure out which ones are actually good. And...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh... So anyway, this one is Filbert's Draft Root Beer.
Christine Schiefer: Well, the name alone. Loving it.
Em Schulz: Woo-hoo. Woo-hoo. Um, and, uh, I'm, I am very excited about this one. And the reason I drink some root beer right now is, uh, because Christine made me sob as soon as I woke up this morning, so...
Christine Schiefer: I didn't mean to make you cry. I just...
Em Schulz: Please. Christine sent me a four-minute voice message about how wonderful I am, so I don't know what she thought was gonna happen, but...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [chuckle] I mean, I was just...
Em Schulz: Okay. Right. You didn't mean to. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Trying to share some perspective, um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Just share some perspective that I've had. I... I've been going through a transformational pha... Phase, and I think we... I think a lot of people are. I don't know if it's like the moon, I don't know if it's Mercury, I don't know if it's just the year 2024, but there's been just a shift in my thinking and, um, I, I felt like I needed to, to get you that voice memo before, before I forgot. So, um...
Em Schulz: It plopped out of your head.
Christine Schiefer: It plopped out of my head, uh, into your tear ducts, I guess.
Em Schulz: It, it fell right in there. Nothing but net.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Buckets. I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Buckets.
Em Schulz: No, it was very kind. I really, I, I needed the, the pick-me-up. And, and, um, I know it wasn't like specifically about how wonderful I am, but the, the sidebar of it all was that I had, I had helped you in some part of your, your journey, it was very lovely.
Christine Schiefer: You did, massively. And, and you really did. So, I... I mean, wow. Uh, it's rare that a reason we drink is like a, a full-on tears reason but, um, nice.
Em Schulz: It was... I also woke up only minutes before we recorded, so I heard the message...
Christine Schiefer: I did warn you. I did warn you. I said, "Don't... You don't have to listen to this right when you wake up." So I wanted to make sure, but I guess you did it anyway.
Em Schulz: I... Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, I saw a four-minute voice message and I went, "Well, I have to know what this is about." And then, um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And then, and then all of a sudden we were supposed to record and I was like, "Oh, well, how do I get the tears off my face? So, this is really bad." So, um, proud to report, I'm someone where, this is like the only real like pretty privilege I have a-across the board is that when I cry, you can't tell after a few minutes, whereas...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Some people their face is a big puffball for the rest of the day. So...
Christine Schiefer: Must be nice. I look like...
Em Schulz: Wouldn't...
Christine Schiefer: My eyes have been... I've looked like I've put my face in a bowl of ragweed...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or whatever, whatever people are allergic to...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That causes hay fever. I... [laughter] I don't know...
Em Schulz: So for me it would be like shoving my face into Gio's armpit for an hour... An hour.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just like a f... A face full of dander, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Um, that's why I look like...
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's another reason why I drink 'cause I don't have a, a lot of, you know, those types of privileges, that, that, that's certainly one of them. I know people envy that about me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I do.
Em Schulz: I like to say it just 'cause I try so often, my face has had practice, so... Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's just what your face looks like always. [laughter] Just like everything...
Em Schulz: My face is actually just puffy and full of tears, so I do cry, you never know.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like it's homeostasis, it's just like puffy tear-stained. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Why do you drink, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you for asking. Um...
Em Schulz: And what do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: I fucking hate root beer, is my first thing I wanna say. Uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: It's my least favorite. I can't stand it. I can't stand it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, Well, actually, you're not alone. Uh, it's... I went to the... There was a pop-up museum called the Museum of Disgusting Foods, and root beer is the... Is... Has... Since its creation, has been one of the top five most disgusting foods to come out of the US...
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: And nobody outside of the US can like tolerate it, they're like this is... Taste of toothpaste.
Christine Schiefer: It's... It's... I can... I can see why it's d... It tastes like toothpaste to me. I'm like, I feel like I'm drinking sparkly toothpaste and it makes me wanna throw up. Like I just cannot stand the stuff. My brother loves it. Just so not my thing.
Em Schulz: I would... I would like to do a, like a, some sort of study on people with the cilantro gene and a root beer gene.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Because I wonder if... 'Cause I have the cilantro gene where cilantro is just fucking disgusting. And it really... If I'm being honest, any single herb out there is disgusting to me. Any, any, any green that we're using...
Christine Schiefer: Basil?
Em Schulz: Basil's fucking foul. I can't tolerate it.
Christine Schiefer: You don't like pesto?
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Any, anything that people use as a garnish or as like an aroma... Like a... I don't know. Like, an aro... Fucking t... I can't stand them.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Root beer's pretty good. I mean, my mouth might be broken...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: That's too bad. I signed you up for the Herb of the Month Club.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Ta... I hope you're talking about weed so I can just send it right back to you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Just... I... We... Well, that's what I meant, I've sent myself Herb of the Month Club. My bad. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, well, I drink because... Thank you for asking. Um, I just, as we sit down, uh, ran inside from, uh, arriving home after my first therapy appointment with my new therapist.
Em Schulz: Do we like her?
Christine Schiefer: Woop, woop. Dab, dab. Um, she's the best. Fucking love her.
Em Schulz: Please talk to her about your like s... Dabbing in 2024.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, she told me she has like a nine-year-old son, so she'll probably be like, "Please stop, I don't wanna see this in my office." Um...
Em Schulz: She's like, "I've seen this on my child. Why are you doing it at 32?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's not for grownups. Um, no, she's great. She was so validating. I feel like I, I teared up a bit, which as you know is rare, now that I'm on Zoloft, and I think it's because I, I felt very just like, "Oh. Finally." Like someone who says they're a quote, "safe space," but like actually feels like one. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And not to say the other places I've been to weren't. I just felt like maybe I wasn't suited for that, that p... That safe place or I didn't...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly mesh with the person. Um, and I kind of explained like my past therapy experience, and one thing I had trouble with is that, the person I used to see, um, even though we aligned on all the right things on paper, um, I always felt very criticized after I left. And at first I thought, yeah, you know, maybe that's a me thing, like maybe I'm projecting, but then I noticed she would roll her eyes a lot when I talk.
Em Schulz: Oh! Bye. What in the world? I'd be like, "Girl, you need therapy. What the fuck is going on?"
Christine Schiefer: Right. And I felt like, "Okay, she's... " Like I just genuinely felt every single day like, "Man, she is fucking over me. Like she does not want me here... "
Em Schulz: Who, who, who was... When was this? Was this like when...
Christine Schiefer: This was, when I first moved to Cincinna... Or to Northern Kentucky, so this would have been like, um, 2020, 2021. It was like when I was pregnant...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: What's her name? I wanna... I wanna fucking beat her up. wait no, wait.
Christine Schiefer: No, I can't... No, I can't go...
Em Schulz: How... That has to be rule number one in therapy, is like, don't roll your eyes at somebody when they're telling you their prob... When they pay you to tell you their problems. Shut the fuck up. I'm so mad at her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you'd think... Yeah. Okay. Thank you. 'Cause I felt like, you know, maybe I'm just like reading into things. But then today, I went in, I was like, "Oh my God, this is like night and day." And I said, like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "I actually feel like I can speak to you without worrying that like I'm gonna go home and like doubt everything I've said." Like I was getting to a point in my, with my old therapist where I would like kind of h... Like, which is a huge red flag in therapy like, hide the truth or something, or like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Try to say what I thought she wanted me to say. Like it was a very toxic relationship we had. And we ghosted one another, so I think it was mutual. Um, if the eye roll told me anything...
Em Schulz: How did you find this one?
Christine Schiefer: Um, okay. This is where I give a, a beautiful shout-out because she had a little drop-down menu where she's like, "Oh, how did you find our practice?" And I was like, "You're gonna have to hit other, 'cause this is like not on your drop-down list, I promise." Um...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Was it like on a rhyming billboard with a pun or something?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Was it...
Christine Schiefer: Uh...
Em Schulz: Did she share a part of her billboard with Punxsutawney Phil?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was watching the movie Groundhog Day. Um, no, I, I, uh, had lamented on a past podcast episode with you about, it was like the end of an episode and I said something like, "Man, I've just really struggled since ghosting my therapist," which is the one I was just talking about, um, to find somebody that I really feel I can mesh with. And, uh, somebody, I guess, emailed in and said, "Hey, I no longer, you know, go to this practice, but they are wonderful, very open, very... "
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: "LGBT-friendly." And so I thought, "Okay, I'll look into it." And I just... I don't know. I, uh... I, I, guess, uh, Megan or, uh, or Katie or somebody forwarded it to me on Slack, and I went, "Well, I might as well just like take a peak." And I opened their website and I was like, "This just feels right." So I sent them an email and, uh...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: They just matched me with someone who said they thought I'd be a good match and... Yeah. So thank you to, um, the person who emailed, you probably know who you are, because it's a very specific thing that you've sent. Um, so thank you. That, uh... It's...
Em Schulz: That's very sweet...
Christine Schiefer: And she said, "Indeed, that is a new one." And I do not have a drop-down option for that, for podcast fan sent you here. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's that.
Em Schulz: Like... Yeah. Well, that's very lovely. And I, I know exactly what you're talking about. With my current therapist, it's the first therapist where I've... I look forward every week to going and...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Also, can I ask how old your therapist is?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Um, I would say I don't know totally, but probably like mid to late... Like mid-30s, maybe, like my... Our age.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. I... I don't know if it's something like, it... This is a... Maybe it's something I had to wait for until I got to this age, but to... I never had a therapist my age, and this is the first time...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I've had a therapist that we're only a, like a year apart or something. Um, and obviously, since I was a kid I've gone to people, since, who, who were older than me, and I don't know if maybe like culturally, like generationally we just weren't clicking. But...
Christine Schiefer: That's interesting.
Em Schulz: This, uh... But my therapist is 30... 30. And, uh, so she's a year younger than me, which actually feels weird that I'm going to someone who's technically younger than me. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's funny, that means, that make... Means we're old, 'cause now the...
Em Schulz: I know, I'm like... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: The professionals in our lives are just gonna get younger as we get older. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. That, that I don't totally love, but...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, no, it's, it's just so weird. And also she's so different. I... Every single... Every single therapist I went to before was like kind of like an old, old white girl. And like, and like, I feel like I, I've said this to you before, and I've said this to everybody that like I was intentionally looking for someone part of marginalized communities who had different insight than I do about...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The, the world and how things work and what systems are in place. Um, and so... And I wanted someone who wouldn't coddle me, I wanted someone who wouldn't, you know, hold my hand, I wanted someone who'd call me out on my bullshit. And I have just noticed across the board that all my other therapists were very quick to let me feel like the victim in places.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And I wanted someone who was gonna be like, "Ehh. You fucked up." And, uh, so that was...
Christine Schiefer: Really? Oh, I'd rather die. But I'm, but I'm s...
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so glad because I feel like there are people who are better with that form of treatment, but I'm not... I'm not one of 'em.
Em Schulz: I know. It was... It's been very useful. And also like she's very a-anti-capitalist, she's like super feminist, she's... You know, we've... We align on all the same politics stuff. Like one of the first...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Conversations we had was like, "Do our morals align?" Because like... How... Like... And also like it shouldn't be her job to like walk me through things if I'm confused... Like, so it, it just all worked out very well. Like... So, um...
Christine Schiefer: I love when that happens.
Em Schulz: I know exactly what you mean. I've never had like the... Like someone's actually going to help me, versus I'm just...
Christine Schiefer: Like you actually get it, and I feel like I can actually open up...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Fully without like worrying how this will come across. Yeah. Th-there's...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And I... Again, I've only been to one appointment so far, but I'm telling you, I was like, "Okay, this... " Oh, oh. And then... Okay, I don't wanna triangulate her, but she was like... I look around and there's like all these pic-pictures of moths, and she goes, "Oh, I'm getting, um, a moth tattoo soon." And I went, [gasp] look at my arm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "Wow... "
Em Schulz: Well, I don't mean to say... What's, what's your phrase you like to say? Irrefutable proof, but, um...
Christine Schiefer: Irrefutable proof. [laughter] That thing is real.
Em Schulz: That's enough for me. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So, uh, I will probably send you another...
Em Schulz: I'm very happy for you.
Christine Schiefer: Tear-inducing voice memo later about how you have also... You and your therapist have inspired me to go out and ask our podcast listeners for therapy recommendations. Um, and then, you know...
Em Schulz: Sometimes it works. I mean, I found mine on TikTok, so... Which by the way now I feel... I mean, I sought that out, I literally, in the search bar went, like, like, millennial Gen Z therapists...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's, that's what our conversation was. You said that, and I said, "I wish I could do that for Northern Kentucky." And somebody emailed and said, "Here, this is your response to your search query." I was gonna say, I wish I could search...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: By saying it you kind of search, type it into the search bar. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. And it worked.
Em Schulz: Um, no, I... Uh, it's, it's such a relief. And to know that I found her on TikTok, I was like, "She's kinda already gotta be cool or at least savvy, like, she's, she's with it you know... "
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: A savvy. Definitely. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, um, it's so weird 'cause I don't... So I don't follow her 'cause I didn't know if that was... Part of me was like, "I don't want her to find my TikTok," even though I told her...
Christine Schiefer: It does feel blurred lines... Yeah, feels a little blurred lines, like you don't know what the protocol is. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, also 'cause I don't want her to like look at any of my TikToks and be like, "Well, let's unpack this one today," which is... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Well, well, you have so many fucking... What's this girl Christine? You need to get her out of your fucking life, she is toxic."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She of all said... But then every time she, she posts like really funny TikToks about therapy, like I... She's...
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: I mean she's like with it, she knows what she's doing with TikTok, and, uh, they're all like... I, I like them a lot, I'll send them to you privately. But, um, I'm afraid to like them. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: But when they show up on my screen, I'm like, "Man, I really wanna give you the validation you deserve, but... "
Christine Schiefer: "I don't wanna engage... " [chuckle]
Em Schulz: "I don't want you to know that I'm seeing them too, so I don't... " Anyway, so I'm glad ours is about mental health. Both ways this time.
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm proud of us, Em.
Em Schulz: Was mine? What did I drink this week? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Root beer. I think.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I just had...
Em Schulz: Mental health.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Just kidding. I think you actually said because of the voice memo I sent you. So, it, it was...
Em Schulz: Oh. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: I, I, I wanted to make it seem silly about that, that it was just root beer. But it was more than that, I promise. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. No, no, no, you're totally right. Uh... Yes. Okay. So we're both happier than we were last week. Yes?
Christine Schiefer: Wow. What a, what a change. And it's Friday, you know, let's, let's party...
Em Schulz: Wow. What are you doing tonight? Anything fun?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh, one of my best best friends whom you know, Alyssa, just got engaged and is in town with her fiance, so I'm gonna give both of them a squeeze. And, uh, they're, uh... I'm meeting her fiance's family as well. She's coming with her parents, I think, which I didn't know, um...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: As in Alyssa's fiance, Mattie, is coming with her parents, and so I'm gonna meet the whole fam. Um, and I'm very excited, we're gonna get pizza, and she's gonna meet... Aly... Alyssa's gonna meet Leona for the first time. So it'll be a nice...
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Can you believe it? It's been...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Is it weird for you when your own childhood friends are meeting... Like she's not a baby anymore, that's a full-blown little kid...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. It's incredibly. It's incredibly weird.
Em Schulz: Like worlds colliding.
Christine Schiefer: Like thankfully, Renee moved back pretty quickly, like pretty s... Pretty close to when Leona was born, so she's had enough interaction that like they know each other. But with Alyssa I'm like, "Man, this is weird that you don't know my child... My offspring yet." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I know. Yeah, that's... That is weird.
Christine Schiefer: But today's the day.
Em Schulz: Gangs all here. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Let's hope they get along. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Let's, let's pop into my story, Christine, so you can go get your pizza with your little baby.
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: Okay. So mine, we just talked about Baba Yaga with the, her little bird... Her little legs in her bird house or whatever it was. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta... You gotta love her.
Em Schulz: Gotta love her. Uh, I have another Baba for you. But, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Another Baba?
Em Schulz: Another Baba. Which if you remember is, translates to grandmother, and it's sometimes a title that you have to like... It has to be earned or you have to... Your reputation has to precede you in a way. So...
Christine Schiefer: I see. It's like an elder...
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: A term for like an elder that you respect, maybe?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I think so. Yeah, it's fair to say. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So this is the Baba Vanga Prophecies.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Prophecies.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: So the Baba Vanga Prophecies. This starts in 1911 on January 31st, so we just hit the anniversary of this.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Uh, Baba Vanga, who... Or she's, she's originally born with the name Vangeliya Pandeva Dimitrova. Di... Di...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Dimitrova. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And she's born that day, so happy birthday, girl. Um, in the Republic of Macedonia.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And her father was a political activist, her mom was a farmer. Which I love in 1911, her mom had the more like what seemed as the masculine role and her dad had what seems more like the feminine role.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, so her dad...
Em Schulz: Like in terms of jobs.
Christine Schiefer: What was the job? The dad was a farmer?
Em Schulz: No, mom was a farmer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Whoa.
Em Schulz: Which feels like dad would be the farmer.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it does.
Em Schulz: And the father was the... I guess political activist is kind of gender-neutral. But between the two, I would have thought mom's the political activist and the dad was the farmer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what I thought you said. I like totally twisted it. Interesting.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I said it to your face and your brain still went, "That's not right," and switched it up.
Christine Schiefer: It said flip it.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Um, but there... So she ends up being a, a mystic, or a, uh, a clairvoyant, a soothsayer.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, and there is no documented line of this going through her family, so Baba Vanga ends up being... She's the first person in her family for this.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Um, what do they say in Game of Thrones? First of her line or first of her family?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah, first of her name or... Yeah. [chuckle] I don't remember, but... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, something like that. So, uh, from the start, this little girl, Van... Vangeliya, currently, um, she has a pretty miraculous entrance, she loves the theatrics, she is born prematurely and extremely fragile, and everyone says...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: "Don't even get attached to her. She is not gonna make it."
Christine Schiefer: "She's not gonna make it. She's not gonna make it." "Dont get attached." That's nice.
Em Schulz: She... Like... Well, her parents did not get attached and they waited two months of her surviving, before they even named her. They were...
Christine Schiefer: My God. Oh my gosh, that's so sad to think about that, that you'd have to really genuinely not get attached. Wow.
Em Schulz: As soon as she was born, I guess it was a, a home birth, they placed her under a wood stove to keep her warm until she passed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that is the saddest thing I ever heard.
Em Schulz: But then, a la Miley Cyrus, she says, "I'm back, motherfuckers!"
Christine Schiefer: She came in like a wrecking ball? Oh.
Em Schulz: She's not done.
Christine Schiefer: I thought she came in like a wrecking ball. Never mind.
Em Schulz: She... [chuckle] She said, "These bitches are trying to kill me, but I'm back." Okay. So... Or whatever that video is.
Christine Schiefer: Yay!
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So she said, "Oh, you thought I wasn't gonna make it. Ha ha. I'm here." So...
Christine Schiefer: Idiots.
Em Schulz: Uh, she survives two months and her parents are like, "Okay, we gotta name you, we're gonna name you... "
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: "Vangeliya." Uh, which I hope I'm saying that right. Van... Vangeliva. Vangeliva. Um, but it means good messenger or gospel. So that's what that...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's a good fors... Foreshadowing.
Em Schulz: And then only at s... When she's seven... Or no, sorry, when she's three, her mom dies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Then her dad goes to fight in the World War I.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So by three, she's like... Hmm, she's definitely had something that either of our therapists could walk her through. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And her and her brother ended up being taken in by a neighbor, just because, it's like, "Well, you don't have parents, I got... It's... It takes a, takes a village. So come live with me."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: By the time she's seven, her dad returns, but he re-marries to kind of this like low-key awful woman and, uh, keeps running the farm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean it sounds like, um, the, uh, Cinderella story with, uh, with Hilary Duff.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Um, you know what's so weird, is I actually looked up a picture of Baba Vanga and she looks oddly like Hilary Duff.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, you're lying to me. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I am lying to you. I don't fucking know what she looks like.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "What?!"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And what's so weird is Chad Michael Murray shows up later, which is even crazier.
Christine Schiefer: All right. That's enough of that. That's enough of that. Thanks anyway. Take a swig of your nasty-ass juice and keep talking.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Was... Did... Did... In a Cinderella story, was there... When she sang that song, "Let the rain fall down... " On like, on her own record, did they play that in the movie? I feel like, doesn't she...
Christine Schiefer: I don't... I don't recall.
Em Schulz: Kiss on the football field, and I remember there being rain? Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: I... Listen, I don't recall. I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: I will... I'll tell you one thing I know for sure is after this episode, I will be listening to Hilary Duff's discography. So, uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's an excellent choice. I would argue one of the best for a Friday evening.
Em Schulz: Thank you so much. It does... It's, it's Giving Friday.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. It sure...
Em Schulz: Her albums never, never hit on a different day.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Um, not quite like they do on Fridays at least. So anyway, Baba Vanga/Hilary Duff, her dad returns from war and, uh, they run the farm together. But in her town, they... Her, her village ends up under new rule and her father gets arrested for...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: His political activism. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And I will say, this is not his first time being arrested for this, it seems like he is a bit of a career criminal in terms of political activism.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Um, in 1921, he was released a-again. And so now at 20... She's 10 years old now. He is released...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he works as a shepherd, and doesn't pay the bills the same way, the whole family kind of falls into poverty, so they have to move, and the whole family moves.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So even like her cousins, her uncle moves. Uh, and her stepmom is still terrible. Uh, uh, she treats the kids like staff rather than kids. And she has obvious...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Favoritism towards her own children.
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you, did I not say... Does she have a tanning bed that she likes to lay in? Because that was...
Em Schulz: Is her name Jennifer Coolidge? Uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. Uh, lip-fillers... I mean, bring it on. I think I've...
Em Schulz: She just might.
Christine Schiefer: Figured it out. Yep.
Em Schulz: Um, in 1923, Vanga is 12 years old now, she's hanging out outside with her cousins in the field, 'cause in 1923 there was just nothing else to do.
Christine Schiefer: I mean in 2005 in Ohio, there was also nothing else to do, so I get it.
Em Schulz: History repeats itself.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um... [laughter] So hanging out in the fields, uh, playing hoop and stick or something, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: All of a sudden there's stormy weather. Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And a tornado...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Gets a-brewin'. Here's what happens. Her cousin, cousins, they make it inside the house, but apparently Vanga doesn't run as fast as them. I don't fucking know. She didn't make it inside.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Home girl gets picked up by the twister.
Christine Schiefer: No! What?
Em Schulz: A la fuckin' Dorothy, just...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ. Okay.
Em Schulz: Just spinnin' around in there. Um, the tornado passes through the town, still holding Baba Vanga. Think of the guilt of these little cousins, by the way, of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Not one of you could hold our hand and dragged her in with you?
Em Schulz: And they just make like a human chain of people all getting dragged up in this twister. Um... Yeah, they... Eventually they go running looking for her after the storm clears near them, they tell their parents, so everyone's looking for her. They assumed she's dead...
Christine Schiefer: "Oops, we let our little cousin, uh, get sucked up in a tornado. Sorry, mom and dad."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, it sounds like the stepmom wouldn't have cared though. It sounds like she really just...
Christine Schiefer: True. It's just like, that's... "You did exactly as I asked. Thank you."
Em Schulz: Right. [chuckle] So, the cousins are obviously panicked and are looking for her. This is the second time now, where people are just gonna expect that Baba Vanga's gonna die, she's not around with... She's not with us anymore, she's not in the room. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And they, they end finding her a half a mile away, she got carried a half mile...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: By this tornado. She's only really like battered and like her clothes are torn up a little bit. Um, but...
Christine Schiefer: Is she motion sick?
Em Schulz: Very. Had to be.
Christine Schiefer: I... I would be. I am just thinking about it.
Em Schulz: Just twirlin', twirlin', twirlin' for half a mile.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Terrible.
Em Schulz: Here's the problem though...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: She has a really hard time opening her eyes because so much debris from the tornado hit her in the eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Which is like one of those things that like I never even thought about, but of course...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: You would have to keep your eyes closed in a tornado.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that would be really trau... Traumatic on your eyes if you survive that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think her eyes like... I'm guessing here, but I imagine with the... The way the rest of the story goes, it sounded like it was just debris in her eyes, but I wouldn't be surprised if like a fucking like fence hit her on the face or something. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Like a cow. You know, there's always a cow in the tornadoes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, cow. I was gonna say the cow too. It's astounding, it was only debris. But I imagine like all the dirt and grit would probably be also hard, so hard to wash out of your eyes. Ooh.
Em Schulz: And going 100 miles an hour, it's probably just slicing your eyes up.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Terrible.
Em Schulz: So I say all that because she ends up needing to get surgery to fix her eyes after this.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, jeez. What year is this?
Em Schulz: Which by the way, 1923, eye surgery, I would literally never want...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck... Fuck off.
Em Schulz: I can't even imagine.
Christine Schiefer: Eye surgery? I barely got LASIK this... The last past year, 'cause I was nervous. I mean...
Em Schulz: You got it in 2023, literally 100 years after she had eye surgery. And...
Christine Schiefer: She paved the way so that I could see better. Good...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Thank you, Baba Vanga.
Em Schulz: I... She... I really ca... I don't even know what it means to get eye surgery in 1923. What... I don't even... I, I ca... I really... Oh my God. It's... I, I can't even imagine. It's like I just imagine it's nothing but torture.
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna even know. It, it feels like it would just be a fun experiment for the doctor more than anything, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, it feels like they just hired an, an evil scientist to... Who was like, "I'm down to torture somebody... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, someone who was like, "I'll cut... " Yeah. "I'll cut into, to a child's eyeballs."
Em Schulz: So imagine, like let's just... Since we're on like a mental health kick today.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Imagine the trauma of barely surviving your birth and people just assuming you for dead, so there's gotta be some sort of disconnect there.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like two months in, they... She probably was not getting like skin-to-skin or anything, like just feels like there's not a bond with her parents. Then, her mom dies at three. Then her dad goes to war.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: Then when her dad comes back, he's married to an evil woman. And then on top of that, she has to uproot her life because they're poor now and they go live somewhere else. And then homegirl gets picked by a tornado. And then she...
Christine Schiefer: I was like, don't forget them tornado. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And then she has to get surgery on her eyeballs as a child, like without anesthetic. You know it was without anesthetic.
Christine Schiefer: She like survived the fucking tornado, and then they're like, "Anyway, now lay down, we're gonna cut open your eyes." Like you just can't win.
Em Schulz: I would... Yes. I would literally be like, "I'm, uh... I'm 12, but I'm checked out. Like let's... I'm out... "
Christine Schiefer: "Put me... " I'd be like, "Put me back in the tornado, I don't wanna be a part of this anymore."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Like, I, I just feel so... I can't even...
Christine Schiefer: It's terrible.
Em Schulz: I don't even know what part would... What do you talk about first in therapy, it's all bad.
Christine Schiefer: You would have to really, really do a, uh, multi-weekly appointments, I think, to get to that, to get down to business. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oof. Never... You'll never truly be done with therapy?
Christine Schiefer: No. Oh, certainly not.
Em Schulz: And this is by 12. So, she...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. Oh. She's only 12. Holy shit.
Em Schulz: So she still has the rest of her life to go to. Um, she hasn't even hit puberty. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, poor thing.
Em Schulz: She ends up getting eye surgery. The family, 'cause remember, they're poor, they can't afford eye surgery. They are selling whatever they can just to get her eyes...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Corrected to the, the best way possible. But they couldn't afford the best treatment, so who... Wherever they did get the eye surgery, I feel like it was kind of like a great value version of the eye surgery because...
Christine Schiefer: No. No. No.
Em Schulz: Even after her treatment, within four years, she was completely blind anyway. So...
Christine Schiefer: I would've just... I... You just at that point, you're like, "I should never have even gotten it."
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like it was like, "Thank you for giving me four extra years." But I, I imagine if the surgery... I don't know if it was a botched surgery, I don't know if that was like a good... If that was a success...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And like that was the best they could have hoped for. But...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, true. Maybe that was the norm. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Like if I found out I was gonna be blind anyway, I'd be like, "Let's just... Just don't stab me in the eyes too."
Christine Schiefer: "Let's just call it a day." Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I don't know. I... But at the same time it's like...
Christine Schiefer: But I also don't know, 'cause I... I... Yeah, I don't wanna say, "Oh, well, she shouldn't have gotten four extra years of her vision." I mean I don't... It's not my place to say, but...
Em Schulz: But, like, I just... To know that, you just got surgery in your eyes, you hope that, "Okay, that better have been fucking worth it." And now...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Immediately your vision's deteriorating, to a point where only two years into those four years, she still can technically see, but she's on her way and within two years they knew like, "Oh, eventually she's gonna be fully, like not just vision-impaired... "
Christine Schiefer: That's so sad.
Em Schulz: "She's going to be living in the dark."
Christine Schiefer: This girl... Man.
Em Schulz: And she... I mean, they sent her right away, they had to have known that it wasn't going to last fever, because right away they sent her to a boarding school for, uh, students that are, that are blind. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: While at school though she fell in love with a boy, a wealthy boy, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la.
Em Schulz: He proposed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my!
Em Schulz: And then her dad said, "No, you can't."
Christine Schiefer: Y-you know what, dad, it doesn't sound like you have great taste in women. So, you know what, it's not your fucking place.
Em Schulz: I... You know what, one, two, I mean, we could talk about toxic masculinity 100 years after this, so this... I feel like this story is just, almost expected at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Definitely.
Em Schulz: But, um, he said, "I don't want you getting married... " First of all, someone wants to be with your daughter and loves her, and it's wonderful and... And like also, they met at a school for the blind, so like they have each oth... They know each other's like experience and they can help each other through things.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Perfect situation. And...
Christine Schiefer: Also he's wealthy, which I'm sure is a concern of the dad, I would think, um...
Em Schulz: Who has been like in abject poverty this whole time, you would think like that would be helpful.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. A bonus.
Em Schulz: He said, uh, "Well, your stepmom, she recently died, I need you to raise her kids for... For me."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for God... This stepmom is just too much.
Em Schulz: Even in death, she's fucking things up.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like you know she did that out of spite.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I cannot even say that with a straight face. It's a terrible thing to say. But...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I just picture like in the Disney version of this, she's like, "Ha ha. Now I really gotcha... "
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. It's like, "I'll run away and everyone will have to take over my responsibilities."
Christine Schiefer: Being burdened with my own children, my offspring. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, she... So, stepmom dies, she ends up having to turn down the love of her life. Which, like by the way, let's remember that was like the only good thing that's ever happened to her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's horrible. It's really sad. It makes me sad.
Em Schulz: And she goes to raise her half-siblings in her own town, and at this point becomes a bit of like a mentor in her village teaching kids how to sew and embroider.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I feel like she's kind of just become like the village home ec teacher. And...
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: The irony is so that one day they can grow up and go be on their own, which she was forced out of.
Christine Schiefer: For... Yeah, wasn't even allowed to do. Yeah.
Em Schulz: By 28, full-blown spinster, I'm sure. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. [chuckle] She's a lost cause, am I right?
Em Schulz: Well, here's the third time where she should have died and somehow didn't. Uh, she died from in... Or she almost died from inflammation of the lungs, which at the time was its own like disease or sickness, like, that was like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: You could just die from that. I don't think they had awareness that that was a symptom of something bigger.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I... Oh, I see. I see.
Em Schulz: So there's no record of what she actually nearly died from, just the...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: The side effect that almost killed her. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Something's wrong with her lungs.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, so it could have been a flu or something, but...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, anyway, she almost died from inflammation of the lungs, which, like how inflated and inflamed do your lungs have to be...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.
Em Schulz: And they didn't have X-ray machines back then. Like how bad are your lungs that they know that your lungs...
Christine Schiefer: Are you sure they didn't have X-ray machines considering they had eye surgery? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Okay. That's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: That's why, I'm like, what was their X-ray? Like they just like cut you open and look inside...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And say, "Okay, we'll get an X-ray... "
Em Schulz: A scalpel was an X-ray. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A scalpel. Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: An X-Acto knife. Um, so, at 28, she, she almost dies. She survives again... I feel like, you know what, something's happening when I'm holding this root beer 'cause it feels like my version of holding a bottle of beer. And I feel like I'm at a bar with you...
Christine Schiefer: It looks like you're having a beer with you...
Em Schulz: And I'm like, "And then this bitch, guess what?"
Christine Schiefer: I know. And I can't even... [laughter] And then you'll never believe what happened next. Uh...
Em Schulz: And like... And then I had to hear it from a buddy down the road, but she survived.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She made it.
Christine Schiefer: Mean... Meanwhile, all I have is this fucking... I can't even put in the screen 'cause it looks so gross, but Blaise made me overnight oats with chia seeds. Um, and...
Em Schulz: How do we feel about overnight oats?
Christine Schiefer: I fucking love 'em. I always have. But, uh, I know they're very divisive. So I know that it's not everybody...
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I just think some people are like not into oats or oatmeal at all. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oats...
Christine Schiefer: But I, but I like it.
Em Schulz: Oats, oats, oats.
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: Um, I love a porridge.
Christine Schiefer: A porridge. Interesting. I don't know if I've ever had a porridge. Well...
Em Schulz: Well, oatmeal falls under the umbrella of porridge, right?
Christine Schiefer: What about... What about... I guess so. What about Cream of Wheat? That would be like a porridge.
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't think I've had Cream of Wheat. But I've had farina...
Christine Schiefer: That was like my childhood... Oh, it's like the same thing, I think. Well, no, it's a little different. But they're similar.
Em Schulz: I fucking love farina.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I feel like, um, my big thing growing up when we'd go to my grandma's in Austria was Cream of Wheat with, um, with chocolate shaving... Milk chocolate shavings on it...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Just... And my...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I feel like I... I feel like only people who play hoop and stick are people who, like whose mouths melt at the idea of Cream of Wheat with chocolate shavings.
Christine Schiefer: Of literally farina, but it's us.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's so good. I just had it when I was, um...
Christine Schiefer: At least I think.
Em Schulz: When I went to, um, Thanksgiving for my... With my aunt and my uncle. They make a mean farina. They make a fa-mean-a. And it was delicioso. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh. Apparently they're... They're basically really si... They're very similar, apparently...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Okay. Well then, I probably like Cream, Cream of Wheat.
Christine Schiefer: Like almost the same. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It'll be my, my old people meal 'cause I'm already eating it, so...
Christine Schiefer: Melt some German chocolate onto that bad boy. Oh. Good.
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: It's really good.
Em Schulz: Is Ritter Sport a German chocolate?
Christine Schiefer: Sure is. I think so at least.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It might be Dutch, sometimes I get them mixed up. But let me check. Uh.
Em Schulz: The light blue one. The Alpine milk. Ooh. It does something to me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And then the brown one with the little biscuit in it. Oh my God. Take me out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's my... That's my personal favorite, the, the biscuit one. Um...
Em Schulz: Ooh. They're, they're the only two I like. I've tried all of them. And the brown one and the light blue one are my two favorites.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they, uh... They are, they are indeed a German brand. I just confirmed. It's good stuff. Good stuff.
Em Schulz: Oh. I love them. The, the light blue one, I have in my freezer right now. Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Yummy. That's classic.
Em Schulz: Maybe I eat some of that while I listen to my Hilary Duff later. Oh! It's gonna be a good night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Friday. Party.
Em Schulz: Okay. So back to my... We're, we're in a dive bar, I'm holding my beer...
Christine Schiefer: So anyway... [laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: We're talking about Cream of Wheat, like all guys at dive bars do, holding a beer.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, let me get back into it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So then this, this little girl's supposed to die, she survives for the third time now with her stupid lungs, they somehow...
Christine Schiefer: With her like nine lives. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so, it really is almost like she's a cat. According to Vanga, while she was sick on her death bed, which I will say a lot of people, even personal friends of mine, if you are that close to death, that is when...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: A lot of people have a moment where, because they're on the other side, are so close to the veil in between worlds...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It ignites something or they've seen too much...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And it stays with them when they come back to earth side. Uh, and, and it's the beginning of them having some interesting spiritual skills.
Christine Schiefer: I have absolutely heard that. I t... I've heard that very often of, about people who, yeah, either die on the table during surgery or have a near-death experience and they come back to earth and are like, "Uh, my entire view on life has changed," [chuckle] like their whole prospect and their whole view of the world changes.
Em Schulz: One of my friends, um, who is very gifted in this stuff, she, uh, died on the table 12 times before college, um, she had like a really intense spleen disorder. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ. I mean... Oh my God.
Em Schulz: But, after 12 times, she's like, "Oh, I've... " Like, "There's nothing I haven't tapped into, at least once probably."
Christine Schiefer: I mean, she's a, she's a medium, right? So it's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She clearly connected something somewhere.
Em Schulz: Well, I say all that to say Vanga is now on her third attempt to reach heaven, I guess, and, um, she's...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Survived, which means now three times she has... I don't know how close to death she was, um, during the tornado one. I mean, it was definitely a, a trauma.
Christine Schiefer: I, I would say pretty fucking close. I'm just gonna say it.
Em Schulz: I don't know if she died and then like came back or anything. But I do know...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I do know as a premature baby where they literally thought she was gonna die, maybe she...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Add it all together, she's having spiritual experiences after this because while she was sick...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: One after the other. Yeah.
Em Schulz: While she was sick, apparently she saw... Oh. I forgot to mention this, forever ago, was like one of the most important bullet notes and I'd walked...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Right over it. During the tornado... I'm so sorry, I totally just went over this one. During the tornado, her eyes are like all fucked up, she doesn't know where she is, her cousins are looking for her, while she's just kind of sitting there and I assume waiting for death to happen...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Apparently, spirits come to her...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And tell her, "You are going to have the gift of clairvoyance and you're going to have the gift... You're gonna have powers, spiritual powers after this."
Christine Schiefer: And this is inside the tornado?
Em Schulz: Either inside the tornado or now she's like on the... On a field somewhere waiting to be discovered.
Christine Schiefer: On recovery?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, Em, that is an important bullet point. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like wildly important. And like, I mean also the symbolism of like as she's losing her sight, they... Someone is telling her she's going to gain a new sight.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting point. Yeah. So she is having a spiritual experience then too then.
Em Schulz: And that happened at 12. And then everything else I've set up until now, going to school and having the surgery, going to school...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Now becoming like a village mother. Um, that's all happened, but she hasn't had any gifts up until that point. I think when she had that kind of moment with the spirits, she probably looked back...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And felt like, "I was clearly going through a fucking trauma or I was like dehydrated or something..."
Christine Schiefer: Right. "Or maybe I was misremembering... "
Em Schulz: "Or I hit my head... "
Christine Schiefer: "Or it was just a weird dream... " Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of ways to write it off.
Em Schulz: Yes. So I think she kinda stayed closed off to it, she was like, "Oh, that was weird," and then just didn't... Never put energy towards it.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Well, now that she's lying on her deathbed for the third time with this lung thing...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: A spirit approaches her and says, "Hey girl, remember me, I told you I'd be back." Um...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And, I don't know, this is where things got problematic, they start getting problematic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It starts immediately with the fact that this spirit is an ancient warrior. I don't know what that means. It's vague enough for me to have some concern. I don't know what it means.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: I'm worried about it being like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Is this an Indigenous person? Is this like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, she lives in Macedonia, could just be a Macedonian warrior.
Em Schulz: I hope so. I... It, it tr... It starts getting problematic, so I'm already inclined...
Christine Schiefer: You don't... You just don't know where the line, where it begins.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm already primed to be like, ehhh, So this is the beginning of that. So an ancient warrior, let's hope it's an ancient Macedonian war... Warrior.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Apparently, his spirit shows up, he visits her, he says that he's here to watch over her and help heal her through her lung infection.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And it was at this moment, once she recovered that the gifts she was told about at 12 years old are starting to come to the surface.
Christine Schiefer: Ah ha. Okay.
Em Schulz: Vanga begins to see spirits and they really appear at random, she really has very little control over it. She starts hearing voices out of nowhere. And on top of that, she can now allegedly go into trances and allow spirits to speak through her. Um, and she can see the future. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Casual.
Em Schulz: Casual. Um, she could also focus on a particular person... This is the wildest part to me, she could focus on a particular person and see their entire life from birth to death. So she could look right at you...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And know what's gonna happen.
Christine Schiefer: Like that movie, was that Big Fish? What movie was that? Where she sees... Where he sees...
Em Schulz: Was it Big Fish?
Christine Schiefer: She shows him how he dies and he's on the toilet?
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That wasn't Elvis Presley you're talking about? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was... It was probably Cinderella's story, yeah, or something. I don't know. I'm...
Em Schulz: Yeah, right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Hilary is... Not just her discography, her filmography is crazy.
Christine Schiefer: I mean clearly very diverse. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Um, so Vanga can now focus on people, her, her clairvoyance probably one of her biggest gifts. Very cool, but a lot of other random visions would come to her without any control, a la That's So Raven, just kind of like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: They would hit her and she... And they would be kind of out of context, so she didn't know what she was looking at. Um, uh, and her power, she kept them for... Kept... She kept them a secret for a year, 'cause she was afraid of people thinking she was mentally ill, which...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Uh, is the first thing I thought because I was like, "This girl has like, she definitely hit her head in that tornado." Uh, she's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. I mean she's been through it.
Em Schulz: She's been through it, she's like living in poverty, she's raising kids she doesn't wanna raise...
Christine Schiefer: She's been traumatized in many ways. Like, countless ways.
Em Schulz: She... She's... And also like just in general, she's living a life she didn't really want, like she... Maybe this is like her way out is to create this like fantastical story. Or...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know what, it could be real, it could not be real.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: But it could be real. We don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: Um, when she did finally tell her closest friends and family, it was difficult for them to believe her until a bunch of her prediction started coming true. And they were like, "Ooh... "
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: "There's no way you could have known that." Um...
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: They wanted Vanga to share her gift with the world, but she was very hesitant and did not like the idea of fame. She didn't wanna, like... She didn't want the attention, so she kept it quiet for a long time. But in 1939, she has a vision about World War II.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I knew you were gonna say that.
Em Schulz: And that her country was going to join the war in two years. So she said, "1941, we're gonna join."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And also, like I don't know psychologically where this falls, but having lived through World War I as a child, she was probably so fucking scared of a whole other world war that maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, and her dad was gone and it was her... She was alone. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, so I don't... For people who are doubtful about her, you know, she could have maybe just been predicting like one of her greatest fears and just saying like, "I hope this doesn't happen," and then it did, but...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: For her to like have said like the year and that her country would be joining, it's a little more specific. So some people fall into the camp that she was telling the truth. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Right. I could see both, both sides of that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It, it freaked her out so much that she did not wanna scare anybody else because she knew what it was like having already lived through a world war...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: So she kept quiet about it. Um, one day while out though, apparently, again, could be mental illness, could be, uh, miraculous, we don't know. One day while out, a spirit of an old man possesses her and speaks through her...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And tells that vision that, "We are going to be joining World War II in 1941," to just anyone who's walking by, this apparently...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Okay. So she's like, "I'll keep this to myself." And they're like, "The hell you will." And then they just...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Force her to say it. Okay. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: I feel like some ghost was like, "I literally just... I just told you that... I just told you this is gonna happen. Why aren't you telling people, like warn people?" And so. Just...
Christine Schiefer: Where... Yeah. I get... I mean... Yeah. Okay. So, poor girl, she's like, "I don't even have any boundaries in my own brain anymore."
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah. Uh, and the story spread because at the very least a quote,"crazy girl" was on the side of the street like predicting things saying that, "We were gonna join in World War II, blah, blah, blah." And so it was kind of like a local gossip tabloid story. But then, the story spread again years later when that prediction came true.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And all of a sudden she was like in the limelight of, "Oh, she could sense something. Maybe she knows more things." And very quickly she grew an audience.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Um, other people knew, especially during such an unprecedented time, that if they went to Vanga's home, then maybe they could get some guidance. 'Cause remember, World War I and World War II, or was it World War I...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: World War II or... Yes, it was those two, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: The two World Wars were the times where a lot of places had massive spikes in spiritualism because...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So many people died, that everybody was like just desperate for an answer about where their son was or where their husband was...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. There's just so much...
Em Schulz: Or if there were any messages.
Christine Schiefer: Uncertainty and fear. Yeah. So it does to-totally make sense that you would be seeking guidance, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. And if everyone else is already kind of talking about spiritualism, it's not as woo-woo to say like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Oh, I'm gonna go talk to this Vanga girl who already predicted things before...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "I was even into this kind of stuff." Um, so, many obviously thought she was a liar or that she was, uh, in cahoots with the devil. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Others thought this was a miracle from God. To those who did believe her, she was known to be a comfort during a scary time who reassured visitors and she brought them peace.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and I just wanted to put this in that like, uh, she was not very, um... 'Cause I also don't know where I stand on her having all these predictions, especially during a time where it, it was a very, uh, lucrative time to be tricking people.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, like, people were really relying on her word, she could have... She could not be legit. But she never asked money of people. Um, like the wildest request she had was that, um, she would ask people sometimes to sleep with an item under their pillow, that way it was like close to their mind, and then she could use it in her readings to like...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Be connected to them. Like there was one where, um, a guy had to like sleep with sugar cubes under his pillow and then bring the sugar cubes to their appointment. Um, but she never asked for...
Christine Schiefer: And she's like, puts them in her tea, like, "Thank you for that."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. Um, yeah, honestly, I think she just needed to borrow a cup of sugar and like didn't know how to ask for it.
Christine Schiefer: She needed groceries. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But this is a, a moment where I at least say she didn't ask for money from people ever, she did not...
Christine Schiefer: That always adds, adds some validity to me, for me at least.
Em Schulz: It... And also, I mean I don't know how real this is or if this is a story, but it sounds like she didn't want people to know for years, she didn't even want her own family to know for years.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: She knew she would be deemed crazy. I don't know. You... As my, uh, my QAnon friends would say, "Do your own research." So, um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Your QAnon friends.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: LOL. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Don't talk about me like that. I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Can you imagine if I had a QAnon friend... Anyway. Okay. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: I, I know, I was like, "Wait, can you clarify? 'Cause I don't think that that's real. Is it?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: If it is, like they know not to tell me about it, I guess. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So people began to see her as, again, not just some other figure in her village where she was helping out like the local kids, but now she's seen as a mother figure to many people because she's helping...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Give peace to them. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Give hope. Yeah.
Em Schulz: This is where she gets granted the name Baba Vanga or Grandma Vanga.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, also I think, I don't know what age she was, but I feel like she was way too young to be a Baba Vanga, but...
Christine Schiefer: True. But she is a spinster, so...
Em Schulz: That's true. You know what, once you've hit 20, if you're not married, you are...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You might as well be a great-great-grandma. So...
Christine Schiefer: A senior, you're in AARP for sure. If nothing else.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm in AARP. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know you are, my friend. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I love it. The benefits, man. Uh...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Everyone I tell, they're like, "Don't you have to be 65?" And I'm like, "That's what they want you to think, but anyone's welcome."
Christine Schiefer: That's actually 55. I remember 'cause my parents had a...
Em Schulz: Oh, 55.
Christine Schiefer: Small crisis when the mail started coming in, but, uh... Yeah, no, Em's in it.
Em Schulz: I'm in it. You can be in it too. Uh, here's an eerie example of one of the times where she was...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, tell me.
Em Schulz: Maybe her predictions were true. Um, so this is in 1942, and, uh, I forgot to look up how this is pronounced. T-S-A-R. Is that Tsar?
Christine Schiefer: A Tsar. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, Boris III of Bulgaria, he fucking heard about her and was like...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: "I am heading my way over to Vanga, I wanna see what is going on, what is... What's the future look like for me and my rule, like, what...
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: "How are things gonna go." Vanga tells, uh, Tsar Boris III, "August 28th, get ready for her. She will be coming soon." And on August 28th, homeboy died of a heart attack.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. She was, was death. Okay. Like his new love interest, another tornado. Oh no, just death. Okay.
Em Schulz: So vague. Which by the way, this is a reminder that if you do believe in mediums and you do like to go to appointments, whatever they say, it could mean anything. [chuckle] It could...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're... It's hard 'cause it's like, yeah, it's vague. I mean, it sounds like she was right on the money with the date. Um, so that's something. But, yeah, it's a little vague.
Em Schulz: And it's, it's kind of... It's one of those reminders that like her visions were also out of context. She probably only got like August 28th, which, you know, if, if she's telling the truth on all this, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it, it would mean that like he came to ask about his rule, and she got a date and maybe assumes that that had something to do with it, but it was really like the spirits maybe saying, "He's not gonna make it past August 28th." Like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "The rule is not what he needs to be concerned about."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he needs to, I don't know, get his cholesterol under control or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, at 31... Okay. So... Yeah. So she's definitely not a Baba age, in my...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: She's super older... Old... Elderly. Got it.
Em Schulz: The fact that we could be Babas is crazy. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Fantastic.
Em Schulz: So at 31, a soldier, I think his name's Dimitar. Dimitar? D-I-M-I-T-A-R. Dimitar?
Christine Schiefer: Dimi... Dimiter? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Dimiter? I don't know. Um, this Bulgarian soldier shows up and he wants a reading from her because his brother has recently died and he wants the names of the men who killed him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay. This is getting a little dicey.
Em Schulz: Vanga tells him the names before he even sat down, because he hadn't even made the request yet.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: As soon as she saw him, she knew what he wanted and said...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: "Here are the names, but," uh, "God is going to punish the killers." He... She's basically saying...
Christine Schiefer: "That's not for you to do."
Em Schulz: "Karma is real. Don't get involved. Karma is coming."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: But she said, "God is going to punish them. I'm only telling you their names, so that way you get to be a witness to God's punishments, but you do not, to enact the vengeance and you do not get to... I'm not," uh, "condoning violence. And you get... I'll tell you the names just so you can sit on the sidelines and watch and enjoy as they suffer."
Christine Schiefer: Let me guess, he didn't listen.
Em Schulz: No, he listened.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he did? Good.
Em Schulz: In fact, he was so taken by her boundaries that, uh, he fell for her very quickly.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And they fell in love.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: But guess what, Ms. Baba Vanga, who can see all, she did not see that he had a wife.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Well, she's blinded by love. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yep, yep, yep.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But he leaves his wife for her.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And then Vanga and her sister both move in with him and his family, and they adopt two children together.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: So they moved quick. Um...
Christine Schiefer: All right.
Em Schulz: And they can... Which always, I've always wondered if you're a medium... And if you're a medium, please write in. I hope I'm not asking an ignorant question, but with true, good intentions. Like if you're about to fall in love with somebody, how do you not just do a reading on that? How do you... I, I know a lot of people have like a, like a block where they can't do things for themselves. But if you're...
Christine Schiefer: That's something that, uh... That's what I usually hear when I ask people that question is like, you... 'Cause I, I've talked to one medium who said, even people in her own family like...
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: S-she doesn't access or can't access because it's too emotionally close that she can't, she can't tell what's. Like her emotional stuff and what's like an outside source, is what I was told by one medium. So I don't know that that's the case for other people. But...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Interesting. I wonder if you have a similar trauma to me and Christine, where you're really good at compartmentalizing emotions...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Like can you put your feelings aside and then do a reading on yourself?
Christine Schiefer: That's... I wonder too. Yeah. I wonder. I wonder, uh... I wonder... I'm sure it changes, right, like depending on the person. I mean, just 'cause that one medium I spoke to said that, uh, maybe... I imagine there are others who can access... I don't know. I would love to know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you're someone who, who actually does possess the abilities and you have...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Any insight to this, I would love to hear it, I would love to know, um...
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: If you were able to look in and kind of cheat the system, I'm like, "Oh, I know how this is gonna go." Or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In the opposite way of like, "Oh, I see how this is gonna go, we gotta... This is not gonna work."
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Yeah. I imagine...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: You know? 'Cause you would think...
Christine Schiefer: Like That's So Raven, not want to see certain things.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like... I don't know.
Em Schulz: I... Anyway, I, I'm curious. But, yeah, I was like, maybe, uh, Vanga saw two kids with this guy and was like, "Oh, he'll do." And then like never even realized he had a wife because at the end of the day, that part wasn't important because it would get solved.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Lot of questions though. I, I... I'm curious as well.
Em Schulz: So he left his wife, they adopt two kids, they all move in with each other. And they continued to have visitors through the end of the war and even afterwards, uh, because people still love going to Vanga. And a lot of them would... She never charged anyone for a reading no matter what, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: But people often tried to gift her something as a thank you, and that usually meant that they got a lot of fruits and vegetables and butter.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which like you can pay me in butter, that's cool. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure. I'll take it.
Em Schulz: But any, any resource they could bring, they would try to pay her. Or some people did pay her in money, but like that wasn't expected and they never turned anyone away if they couldn't pay. Um...
Christine Schiefer: That's really nice.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So one source actually dubbed Vanga the Patron Diviner of Lost Soldiers, because...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
Em Schulz: Because she allegedly helped clients locate several bodies of missing soldiers that were lost in war so that they could be brought home for burial.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: And she could even see the soldiers' final moments and bring closure to their loved ones or talk to them about like their last memories. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: There were even rare times when Vanga's vision revealed that the soldier was still alive. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Despite being told that he was MIA and he was not coming back, um, and she was able to reunite families and friends with their, with their soldiers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my goodness. Do, do you know how much Investigation Discovery would pay for the rights to this show nowadays?
Em Schulz: I know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. And how much I would watch the shit out of the show, like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Even if I didn't know how accurate or valid it was...
Christine Schiefer: No, yeah, it doesn't even matter. Love it.
Em Schulz: Like is it legitimate? I don't know. But I still have to watch.
Christine Schiefer: Incredible. I have to know.
Em Schulz: Um, she... So yeah, so she helps reunite people. And there's actually one story where she told a... The wife of a missing soldier, like, "Hey, I know like they literally came to your doorstep and said that he's dead, or they sent you a letter or something," um, "or a pigeon sent you a, a telegraph," I don't know how it works, "but he is alive regardless of what you've heard, he is alive and he will be coming home. It actually won't be for a while, he's doing something, but he'll be back eventually." The wife did not believe her and was like, "I've already grieved, I can't bear any false hope... "
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: Uh, and ended up getting remarried.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And a year later, the soldier came home.
Christine Schiefer: Uh! Drama.
Em Schulz: And apparently that story became very popular of like, "You gotta believe Baba Vanga, 'cause she is gonna tell you what's going on." Um...
Christine Schiefer: Geez. That's gotta be a mind fuck.
Em Schulz: She even continued to have strange visions, uh, but she never wrote them down. Most of the records, uh, of her visions were actually written secondhand by her sister who kept track of this stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Which I like that the sister was like, "Uh, uh, uh, uh, we have to have receipts. Like this is crazy." Like... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "If somebody's gonna ask, okay?"
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: "And I'm not gonna be with the one looking like a cuckoo because I'm telling them about your powers."
Em Schulz: Right. Um, in 1962, uh, her husband ended up dying and...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Vanga moved with her sister to a village outside of Petrich. Petrich. Petrich. Petrich. Um, and five...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not even gonna speak.
Em Schulz: The Bulgarian countryside, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then in 1967, the Bulgarian government was like, "We fucking have been hearing about you."
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: And they hire her...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: For her abilities and give her an office in the capital.
Christine Schiefer: In '67?
Em Schulz: In '67.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's pretty incredible.
Em Schulz: Tell me this is not the government department... Like I know... We all know how I feel about politics in general, but I would drop everything and I would work for the man for this department. Are you ready?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She works for the department...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The In... The Institute of Suggestology and Parapsychology.
Christine Schiefer: Suggestology... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Bitch! I would literally drop all of my morals. I'd be like, "I have to work at the Parapsychology Department today."
Christine Schiefer: "I love the government!" Em would shout.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: USA! USA!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So, um, I would just be a screeching bald eagle through those halls. I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh... [laughter]
Em Schulz: "Parapsychology Department!" Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That's wild. I love that they had that.
Em Schulz: So they end up going... She ends up working at the Institute of Suggestology and Parapsychology, where not only is she hired and has her own office in the capital, but they also hire her several assistants that just managed her appointments, record her visions, and then they give her sister a salary job as an assistant too.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, I would like to be your sister in this scenario, and just get to hang out...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And write things down for you. I'll, I'll do that.
Em Schulz: I... I think... I feel like that was part of the negotiation of like, "I'll only do this if my sister can also have a job." And I think the sister...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Is now just like in charge of like lunch break. Like she's just like...
Christine Schiefer: I love that she has room to negotiate that way, like, "You bring my sister on board, otherwise I'm not giving you my vision powers."
Em Schulz: Exactly. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: Good for her.
Em Schulz: Here is the crux of it all though, is that just like what I would do, she absolutely, uh, gave up all of her morals, and, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: She sold out. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Now because she's a hired government employee...
Christine Schiefer: Contractor, basically. Yeah.
Em Schulz: None of her visions anymore were ever free.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: She... Absolutely, like, everyone had to pay top dollar for a vision from her because she was working for the government...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So now she's like part of like government secrets. Like she has like...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Essentially top clearance, whether or not they wanna give it to her, 'cause she can see everything. Um, and many of her clientele were high-profile politicians and celebrities. And now this also like gets kind of weird in like government conspiracy shit were like, you wonder like could they just pay her to say anything, whether or not she saw it, just to like keep...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know, the world at bay or... Um, or could she lie and...
Christine Schiefer: To like manipulate. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And we could just tell the newspaper she said this, so that way people think of this.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, the Bulgarian government now had access to all the desires and motives of all who came to see Vanga for advice, so anyone that she was working with outside of the government, I guess, had to jot down that they... What they were there for, what they wanted to know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: So now the government has intel on like...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: All these people's insecurities and fears and what...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Um, they also studied Vanga to try to investigate the accuracy of her prophecies. Over the years, many famous people ended up visiting Baba Vanga until her death in 1996, which feels... It feels weird that someone born in 1911... I know it's like totally doable...
Christine Schiefer: It does.
Em Schulz: But in my brain it feels so far removed from a time that I was alive, that for her to have died when I was on earth, is crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Was a child. Yeah, that, that always trips me up a little bit. Eh.
Em Schulz: Um, in the end, many insists that Vanga was a fraud whose sponsorship by the state was politically advantageous as well as, kind of a, like a lure in for tourism.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And others think that she could have just been mentally ill and none of it was legitimate. But...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: She got exploited anyway for political agendas, and they took advantage of a sick person.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and either way, we still don't totally know how accurate or how legitimate she was, but she did, uh, have a lot of prophecies go, uh, correctly. She accurately predicted them. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. When I gasped earlier I thought, because I had miss... I didn't let you finish the sentence. I... When you said they were no longer free, I thought you were gonna say they no longer came true. And I was like, "Oh my gosh." I thought that because...
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: The government hired her, suddenly like her spiritual guides were like, "You sold out, we're not giving you any more visions." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Now that would be... By the way, I... Can I give you a weird shout-out and mention things that you have not mentioned on the show before?
Christine Schiefer: Always. You could say whatever you want.
Em Schulz: Christine has recently...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what you're gonna say... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Been dipping her toe into writing and has been joining some writing classes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Ahh! Yes, I have.
Em Schulz: Christine, that is a twist that you should remember for a future story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Because that's a great point, is like, oh, the spirits were like, "We gave you a gift and you sold out. Eh. You've lost your... "
Christine Schiefer: And you know, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. "People are using it for wartime. I don't think so." You know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. That's a good twist. Christine recently did a... Had to write with a prompt that came with a twist, there was a twist at the end.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And, uh, it was a very good story. It was very... You...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: And Em was like, "Oh, here's a twist." And I was like, "Shit, that's a better, better twist. That's a better twist than I had... "
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh. Did I? I didn't... Don't even remember that.
Christine Schiefer: Your twist was... Your twist was good. Uh, your twist was that, at the... Well, can I reveal your twist?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It was, uh, that at the end, um, the person that he was like telling this whole story to was...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Being buried alive. Or he was telling his victim as he was killing him.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and you find out that he's been... Oh, man. That was good too, Em. The...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: That the, that the narrator was the killer all along. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Gotta love it. Gotta love it. Yeah, they gave me the prompt thriller. And I was like, "Yay." And then I started writing and I was like, "This is really hard to write a thriller." I don't know...
Em Schulz: No, I, uh... You remember this as a motivation for your future contests that you enter.
Christine Schiefer: I love that. Thank you. Thank you.
Em Schulz: So I do wanna say some of the predictions that she has...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yes, please, I would love to hear them.
Em Schulz: So in 1999, uh, there was a Russian city called Kursk, and she predicted that Kursk would be quote, "covered with water, the whole world will weep over it."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: And Kursk, nothing ends up happening to the city, but within, within that year, when she made this prediction, a very famous Russian submarine also named Kursk sank...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And all 120 people aboard died.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh, shit.
Em Schulz: So this is a reminder that even she doesn't understand the context of a lot of her visions, just that she heard the word "Kursk," assumed it meant the city and not the submarine. Um, but she...
Christine Schiefer: I, I think that's a little bit unfair that her spiritual guides won't like say, "Don't worry, this entire city is not going down." They'll be... They're just like...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: "You'll understand someday." Like...
Em Schulz: It's one of those conversations where I could sit for hours and wonder, like, "Where is the red tape? Like, why why can't they...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah!
Em Schulz: "Give us more information? Is it... "
Christine Schiefer: What are the rules?
Em Schulz: Is it... Yeah. Are there rules or like are they following rules and it's like just rules that we don't understand because we're not part of that world? Or like, can they not give any more... Are they putting out as much energy as they already can and like they, they don't have any more room to...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Give any more context? I don't know. But...
Christine Schiefer: I don't either.
Em Schulz: Just some, uh... What a wacky That's So Raven episode that would be when we thought we had to save a city, but it was actually a submarine and everyone died.
Christine Schiefer: Let's... Let's... It was a submarine and then they all died instead. I... Yeah. What a... What a wacky day.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, I... I feel...
Em Schulz: That's me. Yeah. Um... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's me. You're probably wondering how this submarine drowned. Um, I, I feel like we should take advantage of the, the, the Herb of the Month Club that I signed us up for, and, uh, discuss this topic...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: At a future date, 'cause I think we'd have a lot to, uh, to discuss.
Em Schulz: Well, so... I agree. Uh, she also predicted that the 44th US President would be a black man.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
Em Schulz: She was so specific, she predicted Brexit. She, uh, said...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She said major world cities would have record droughts in 2022. And in 2022, many cities in Europe declared official droughts.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, there is kind of the thought that in 1989 she predicted 9/11. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Because she... I don't know any more context other than this, but in her premonition she said, "Horror horror, the American brethren will fall by b... After being attacked by steel birds."
Christine Schiefer: Well, sounds pretty close.
Em Schulz: I mean, eerie. Certainly eerie.
Christine Schiefer: Eerie. Definitely eerie.
Em Schulz: She allegedly predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, the union of East and West Germany, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: The Chernobyl disaster, the date of Stalin's death. And...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: During COVID, which she was not around for, she died in '96, but during COVID, a long-time follower of Baba Vanga, said, "I remember back in the '90s, and there was one prediction she always mentioned that always stuck with me and I never knew what it meant... "
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: But she said, "The Corona will be on all of us."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And that being said...
Christine Schiefer: Goosecam...
Em Schulz: This is another moment where like it's an out of context That's So Raven vision. Because...
Christine Schiefer: Like how would you ever know what that meant?
Em Schulz: Well, because Corona in Bulgarian means crown. And so at the time when she made that prediction.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: Everybody thought that she was predicting that there would be an invasion, that like the crown would be on all of us.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: But an invasion never came, and so they were like, "Well, I guess that was a false premonition unless something else is to come." But she probably...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: In her vision heard the word "Corona" and didn't know what that meant.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and, and... I mean, this is probably semantics, but to say on us all means like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Not just on a certain nation or cer... Like no one nation is invading another, like we're all struck by this outside force.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's really wild.
Em Schulz: She also predicted that around 2020, we would use solar-powered vehicles to replace oil and gas extraction, which, around that time is when Tesla came out.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Um, not, uh, not all of her predictions have come true, but we, you know, believers can also say they just haven't come true yet, including a cure for AIDS. Uh, she's predicted a radical change to Earth's orbit. She's predicted...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Proof of the spiritual world. And keep dreaming, girl, but she predicted world peace for a thousand years. Which, what happens on the thousandth and first year?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say. I don't like that one, 'cause that implies that I will live with anxiety for those whole thousand... Well, I won't be alive, but you know what I mean. I feel like there would just be this constant anxiety of like, "It's gonna end any day now." You know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. She, uh, uh, did predict that in around 200 years, we will officially make contact with extraterrestrials and Hungary will be the first to do this. But joke's on her because we've already made contact with extraterrestrials. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which, that my TikTok was just covered with that footage. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: It's also said that next year, this... Oh no, not next year, 'cause this is now 2024. Um, this year, she predicted in 2024, Putin will be assassinated by someone from his own country.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit! Well, that's a very specific one.
Em Schulz: So keep your eyes out. Um...
Christine Schiefer: No. For real, if that happens, I'm gonna get f... Pretty freaked out.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, she also said, uh, a country... In 2024, a country will carry out biological weapons tests and attacks, which, depending on...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: Who you talk to, I'm sure there's people out there who think it's already happening or it, it is already...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Whatever. Uh, also that there will be a terrorist attack on Europe, that there will be a huge economic crisis next year, so buy your houses now, 2025.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, come on. We've, we've gone... We've gone through enough. I say we've gone through enough and she's like, "I went through a fucking tornado. Don't talk to me about going through it."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. Yeah, right.
Em Schulz: She also said there would be a career for... Uh, not a career. There would be a cure for Alzheimer's and sometime this year will be a cure for cancer. She said sometime in 2024.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That's hard. She's playing, she's playing my emotions real hard here. Like I feel like on the one hand I'm like, "Please, God, let some of this be true, I would love to find a cure for AIDS and for Alzheimer's and cancer." And then on the other hand I'm like, I don't know about this biological warfare thing and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't, I don't think I like that very much.
Em Schulz: Also, again, if you're someone who's a, a bit, uh, deeper down the rabbit hole, you might, uh, say, "Well, there probably already is a cure for cancer, but big pharma, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: This will be the year that like the cure for cancer is revealed to people...
Christine Schiefer: That's your QAnon friends, you can talk to them about that.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, regardless of her validity, Baba Vanga is said to have always had a deeply valued, uh, love for nature and human life over wealth and greed. Um, and...
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: I'll end on a... On two quotes from her. The first quote is, "There won't be a third, a third World War, but if you continue polluting nature, it will destroy us. If you continue to treat Mother Nature like that, a day will come when different plants, vegetables, and animals will disappear. First it will be the onion, garlic, pepper, and then bees. Milk will become poisonous. People will sow wheat, but rye will grow." And then the last quote is, "We all one by one will go to the other world, but planet Earth and humanity will remain. Our planet existed for billions of years and will exist for many more before an apocalypse, whether it's written in stone, it cannot be changed, sooner or later it happens." Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I'm just...
Em Schulz: And that's, that's first of all, a reminder, to not only drink some water, you thirsty little rats, but also take your anti-anxiety medication. And that...
Christine Schiefer: I haven't done either one today. Help.
Em Schulz: And that is Baba Vanga.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, gosh. I was expecting another house with chicken legs, and this is not what I was prepared for. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Not what you signed up for? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Not what I signed up for. Um, you know, I had a fifth grade Social Studies teacher who was obsessed with Nostradamus, and instead of actually ever doing work, we just... He just read us like the world's most terrifying like predictions. And it... I was in fifth grade when 9/11 happened. And so when that happened, basically the entire rest of the school year was him being like, "And Nostradamus predicted this." And now looking back...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Like he was a little bit off his rocker. But, um, at the time we were like, "Wow!" And I would go home and my mom would be like, "What are we paying the school for? Like you come home and you're like, 'Nostradamus predicted like apocalypse in... And then we learned about the Mayan calendar and how it was real.'" And now I'm like, that man should not have been [chuckle] teaching history to children. Um...
Em Schulz: Can I be honest? When you first said Nostradamus, I heard Nosferatu, and I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God, like I don't remember that. But it makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Not quite. Not quite.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Yeah, I don't wanna say the guy's name because, um, he was like an icon at my school, like he was that teacher...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Who was like the cool guy. But you know now looking back I'm like, I think we all had kind of a toxic, uh, relationship with this teacher. Uh, you know, I think it kind of goes that way sometimes. Um, and I'm not sure if he's even...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Still alive. But, uh, he's...
Em Schulz: That's what I feel about the icon teacher in my school, I'm like, "Is he okay?" Because like, he was old when I was there...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm like a little afraid to Google him. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um... Wowza. Anyway, so that... Like I've just always been... I think I was the only one in class who was like desperately fascinated by these stories like about Nostradamus and all that, and people just were like, "I'm glad we're not doing work." And I'm like, "Me too, but also I wanna know more about these prophecies."
Em Schulz: At the time I think I would have been more of a happy I'm not doing work person, but in hindsight I would have been like, "Man, I should really appreciate the stories being told to me."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was just in it. I was like conspiracy theorist fifth grader. Like cra... It was crazy. Um, I'm very glad that... I feel like he's kind of the kind of person who would maybe have fallen to QAnon. You know, like he was really into all the like off-beat sources and how things aren't what they seem.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um...
Em Schulz: Which is wild... I mean, it, it's, it's shocking, even today, I mean, I feel like QAnon became part of our... You know, became part of the, the air where like all of us kind of just know about it, and like it kind of got...
Christine Schiefer: Right. So pervasive.
Em Schulz: Got... I think a lot of people feel like they gave up on QAnon, we're like, "Oh, well, there's just crazy people in the world now." But like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It... It's wild, I'm still in like the forums on Reddit and like people are still losing family to QAnon and shit. Like it's wild...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Well, and now, with... I mean, even with fricking... I was just talking to my dad about it last night like with the, the, the Chiefs and, and Taylor Swift, and people are like, "The government has created... " I'm like, "You guys... "
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I...
Christine Schiefer: "Relax. My God."
Em Schulz: But just like how it was like your icon teacher who fell into it, I still think the scariest part about QAnon is that some of the smartest people are the people who fell into it...
Christine Schiefer: That's... Yeah. That's...
Em Schulz: Because they really were originally...
Christine Schiefer: Open-minded.
Em Schulz: Open-minded and had...
Christine Schiefer: Susceptible maybe.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Genuine intentions about doing their own research because they didn't wanna be swayed by anybody and it just...
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: They fell into like the world's worst rabbit hole. It's, it's just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's just wild. So I'm not surprised that like a teacher who was like well-respected might have taken a turn.
Christine Schiefer: It's too bad.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I mean I don't know that about him, 'cause like I genuinely don't. But, um, I could...
Em Schulz: It may or may not, allegedly.
Christine Schiefer: I could see it. I could... Let's just say like, wouldn't be shocking to me. Right...
Em Schulz: There's... There are some people I don't keep in touch with anymore, and I think about them, I'm like, "I bet I know where they ended up." Like I... [chuckle] It's like I have a feeling.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Yeah. You're like, "I don't think I need to Google it to find out." Um...
Em Schulz: Right. Right. If I check their Facebook, I think I know what their post would look like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. And this was the same teacher that walked us through the entire Elizabeth Smart kidnapping. So like I was...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: We were in his class like as that unfolded. And so, it was a weird year. It was like 9/11, Elizabeth Smart. Like I mean I don't... I... Did that happen in 2001? It must have. Um, but either way...
Em Schulz: It, it definitely happened when we were children, because all it did was fuel any fire my parents had about me being kidnapped. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh... Okay. So that had happened in '02. Yeah. So like that, probably that same school year. And I just remember being like... Fifth grade is a very formative time all of a sudden for me, I was like, "This is a learning about the world from a very weird guy."
Em Schulz: Yeah. We had... We had all that, and the... And then the DC sniper too, so they would teach us how to hide from guns way before it was like fucking normal.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the... Oh my God. Yeah. Before it was cool. [laughter] I was just gonna say, before it was fucking normal.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Before it was like what every kid was doing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. It's horrible. Um... Anyway, wow, what a story, Em. Um...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you for sharing that with me and everybody. All right. I have a story for you today that is pretty wild. Uh, this is the story, and I'm curious to hear if you know about it, 'cause it's been pretty, um, pervasive recently, it's the story of Natalia Grace.
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: The Curious Case of Natalia Grace. Okay.
Em Schulz: Ohh. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uhh... But I like the wordplay. You should be...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean...
Em Schulz: A writer and like join a bunch of contests or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I should. Although that is the name of the documentary. So that is why I said it. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay. Never mind.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I did not invent that, to be clear. Um, so that's the, that's the show that came out earlier this year. Or, no, I'm sorry, I think it was end of 2023 that like rocked everybody in the true crime world. So this story, um, and, and Saoirse put a really good note up top here, so I'm just gonna use their words. Um, this story largely centers on dwarfism and ableism. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: AKA like discrimination against people with disabilities. And, um, because, uh, the vernacular here is important, I'm gonna also quote this, that the Little People of America organization, LPA, defines dwarfism as a medical or genetic condition that usually results in an adult height of 4 foot 10 inches or shorter among both men and women, although in some cases, a person with dwarfing condition may be slightly taller than that. The average height of an adult with dwarfing is four foot, but typical heights ranged from 2 foot 8 to 4 foot 8. And according to LPA and several content creators and writers with dwarfism, the preferred terminology to refer to people with dwarfism is person or people with dwar... Dwarfism or a little person, little people, depending on their preference.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and LPA also list person or people of short stature as a third option. Um, and people without dwarfism are referred to as being average height. So that's currently, um, you know, the, the preferred vocabulary to use.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and Saoirse also noted that they use several organizations, um, and different content creators and writers with dwarfism to get like as much of an accurate insight as possible in good faith. Um, but of course, you know, there are always gonna be exceptions, not every group is gonna prefer the same terminology. For example, um, although dwarfism is recognized as a legal disability under the, uh, Americans with Disabilities Act, ADA, uh, some people with dwarfism do not identify, um, as being disabled while others embrace it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So there's a lot of... You know? It's just nuanced, just like everything else, right? So...
Em Schulz: I also, I feel like it should be mentioned, just, just in case one person who's listening doesn't know this, that the M word is a slur. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Big time.
Em Schulz: Big time. I feel like it's shocking how many people don't know that. Um, I feel like I only surround myself with people who happen to know that, but there have been times where I'm like, "You fucking don't know that that's like a big fat no-no." So...
Christine Schiefer: "Oh. You, you missed, you missed the memo." [chuckle] Yeah.
Em Schulz: So in case someone didn't know, I'm not trying to like a-add on to yours with the most obvious piece and be like the main takeaway.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But just in case someone doesn't know, the M word for little people is, uh, like beyond no-no. We don't do that.
Christine Schiefer: It's a big no-no. We, we don't use that anymore. Um, and I've just given you several other options, so you know, we can, uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: We can all work and grow together. So let's get into it. And you don't know this story, correct?
Em Schulz: At all.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Buckle up. [chuckle] Okay. Here we go. So Natalia Grace was born in Ukraine on September 4th, 2003. Although, that date would become hotly contested.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Her birth date would become hotly contested. Let's just leave it at that. Her mother, uh, gave birth to her at the hospital and did not take her home. Uh, and so Natalia was placed into an orphanage awaiting adoption. She was born with spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita. Yeah. I practiced.
Em Schulz: Whoo. Good job.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Spondyloepiphyseal... I really hope I'm saying that right. Spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita, or SEDc. And among the 400, fun fact, types of dwarfism, SEDc is very rare and occurs in fewer than one out of 100,000 births.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So people with dwarfism can be born to average height parents and have average height siblings. In fact, over 80% of children with dwarfism have average height parents. And according to the Children's Hospital of Pennsylvania, most cases of SEDc are caused by a new genetic mutation of chromosome 12 in utero. Um, but this... It can also be a genetic condition. So it can vary by individual, but SEDc can affect the skeleton, the muscles, the digestive system, the respiratory system, vision and hearing among other body systems. Dwarfism and other conditions and disabilities are, as, you know, we've just already listed a com... Formerly commonly used slur, um, because a lot of times, uh, people who have disabilities or other conditions like dwarfism are considered inherently bad or different or, you know, just othered because of, because of their condition.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, but with medical and social support and accessibility tools, people with SEDc can live just as happy and same great quality of life as anyone else can. Right. Like... Same with anyone with any condition, if we give them the right tools and the right access and you know the ability to live as a human on this earth, the way that they were born.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, you know. Just deserves to be noted, I would say... So Natalia was an orphan and she would need the support of uh an empathetic and proactive family who would be ready to advocate for her care, so of course they're additional uh... Like I'm trying to think of the right word. Like there's just a lot of responsibility.
Em Schulz: Supports?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you would need, you would need to be prepared to offer more support, like medically speaking and so on. So in 2008, Natalia was adopted by the Ciccone family in New Hampshire at the age of five. Now, we don't exactly know what happened with the Ciccone family. Reports are pretty vague and they have refused to comment in any of the documentaries covering the situation, so there's a lot of speculation out there. Um. Some of the speculation is that the Ciccones were just unwilling or may be unable to financially support Natalia's complex medical needs, um perhaps the Ciccones suffered some sort of major unforeseen life event that, that caused them to have to change Natalia's home. Um but whatever the case, they decided to quote unquote, "re-home" Natalia. Now, I'm gonna get into this very briefly, I have a very sore spot about this, um. I don't know why it probably just because it's about children, but um I've watched several YouTube kind of exposes about families that have adopted children only to re-home them...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it's just this uniquely horrible situation a lot of the time. Not every time, but a lot of the time. Um. So re-homing adopted children is a, a pretty big phenomenon in the United States, you might not realize it, and that's because a lot of times, children will be adopted privately, and then when the parents feel like they can no longer care for the child or don't want to um they can turn to Facebook. And...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah literally, yeah.
Em Schulz: What? I had no idea.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Facebook has come under heavy criticism for allowing adoption groups where prospective parents post advertisements and photos of their children looking for new families.
Em Schulz: Like a, like an animal.
Christine Schiefer: Like a puppy that was born under your porch or something. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. In many states, the courts do not even need to get legally involved, this isn't even an illegal behavior, it's just that how you... I know you.
Em Schulz: What!? We're not gonna like sign paperwork at the very least?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, we'll sign paperwork, they basically post their child to Facebook, meet the perspective family, and then sign and notarized the custody documents and bing bang boom uh and...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You know even, even in the smoothest, which I'll mention later, but even in the smoothest of these re-homing, it's still a traumatic event to be re-homed to a new family right.
Em Schulz: To be, to be... For your, your parents to not want you. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: R-Right. Or, or to not be able to care for you or to just, just to even change your environment, whether it's, whether it's necessary or better for the child or whatever, aside, even like a divorce, it's, it'll be traumatic because it's, it's a, it's a major life event, even if it's the smoothest, most healthy divorce possible. Right. So it's still um it's still a rough, a rough experience, and then you know you get into the details of some of these families that are really should just go to prison, but whatever. Um. So adults who were adopted as children have began speaking out, um and I've heard some of these on YouTube, like these kind of tell all uh e-experiences from the people themselves who've experienced this, telling stories of being re-homed multiple times. Um. A lot of times, parents who re-home adopted children, site behavioral issues, life changes, expensive medical needs, I think a lot of times families who do this get in over their heads...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um and they don't realize how much um... Or or you know there's, there have been cases where the adoption, the adoptive agency is not upfront about some of the uh... you know. Either a disability or some of the struggles that the child has had or some health issues, and then they move in with the family and the family is suddenly like too overwhelmed and they had not been prepared for that. So you know there's a lot of moving parts that um make this obviously, very textured, but uh... It's just also very sad because in what world like would you re-home your quote, "Biolo..." Like your "Biological child," it's almost like you don't see...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: An adopted child as your real child because...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You adopt them, but then there's also uh... There's caveats or like there's strings attached, you know um and so it's, it just is a very... I know that it runs the gamut, there's a whole spectrum of like why it might be necessary to re-home some... A child with specialized needs, I understand that um it's just very sad when parents...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Just kind of don't realize what they're getting into and re-home a families or re-home a child. So anyway, so imagine a Facebook group basically dedicated to giving away your biological children because like the child is having medical issues or... You know what I mean? Like it's you, it's just hard to wrap your head around. Um I'm gonna read you just to give you idea, an example of a real... I hate to even say these words together, advertisement for a child. Uh. This was posted on Facebook.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Quote, "Born in October of 2000, this handsome boy Rick was placed from India a year ago, and is obedient and eager to please." Fucking vomitous. That was post on Facebook.
Em Schulz: That was kind of giving enslaved person.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Okay, so my next bullet is literally that there have been cases exposed where the adoptions have led to human trafficking.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um which I mean is not surprising, right. So there's this one uh girl, her name was Quita Puchella, and she was adopted as a teenager from Liberia and described as troubled, and her parents posted an ad to re-home her online and signed her over to new parents two days later, uh where she was immediately sexually abused the same night. Um. So it's just really a dark and scary place.
Em Schulz: The fact that it's, it's essentially like, if you're like a... If you are a sexual deviant, a sex offender in some way, like you could just go to Facebook marketplace and get a child.
Christine Schiefer: Liter... I mean literally, and look at photos and be...
Em Schulz: That feels like it should be like the dark web or some shit. Not just Facebook.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like it shouldn't be Facebook fucking marketplace.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I want a little, a little handsome boy who's eager to please and I can get him tomorrow. What the fuck?
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. It's really sick, and, and so many adopted children have shared similar stories of being trafficked through these re-homing ads on Facebook. Um so reminder now, just to give you all that context, reminder that the Ciccones are in a place where they've decided to re-home, five-year-old Natalia again, we don't know why, um but because they have kept it private, but that is what they decided to do.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they posted about Natalia and a woman named Judith Irving saw Natalia's photo and just fell in love with her her right away. And Judith is also a person with dwarfism and felt like she was uniquely you know qualified to be able to uh care for this child...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she wanted to give Natalia a loving and affirming home. But allegedly, the Ciccones asked Judah to pay $25,000 out of pocket uh in legal fees for the adoption. And she was like, "I cannot afford that." um. And so some people have criticized...
Em Schulz: It's like you shouldn't be fuckin thanking that I'm taking someone off your hands where you should be going to jail for doing this...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Where, where... Exactly.
Em Schulz: Yeah. No, obviously, I'm... Moving on. Moving on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But I, but I also wanna be clear, that is just one side of the story, we don't actually know the real facts of this exchange or what have you.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um. Some people have criticized the Ciccones basically what you're saying, for attempting to sell Natalia instead of you know finding a more affordable legal option to process the adoption, um but we don't have the facts. We don't know what the real costs were to re-home Natalia. So this is all speculation, um but it was difficult to let go, and Judith said "In my heart, Natalia is the daughter I never had," but she just could not come up with... According to her, the $25,000 they were asking for. So two other potential parents who were also little people flew to meet Natalia, but according to them, something about the meeting felt off, and one of them said something was wrong with Natalia, but he couldn't decide whether it was her or just the whole adoption situation itself. Um. And he was already uneasy because as he claims the Ciccones had asked the couple to reimburse them for medical expenses that they had already paid...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: For Natalie's previous procedures. So it is coming off a little bit like several people have alleged the Ciccones, we're asking for sums of money to find the right home for Natalia. And so this couple also left and did not adopt Natalia either, um and that's kind of what caused people to accuse her parents have attempting to profit because two families who both were in a similar situation, they were either little people or, or had dwarphism, and they were willing to give her a safe, happy home, and apparently, it just didn't... The Ciccones didn't agree to the, to the exchange...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so that's kind of where they get criticized. Um regardless of the truth behind the Ciccones choosing to re-home Natalia, she ended up with a couple named Michael and Kristine Barnett, who had three biological sons named Jacob, Wesley and Ethan. Now, this is where the story turns into like the melodrama of the docuseries and the true crime and all that, so she ends up with this couple, Michael and Kristine, and uh in the Discovery Plus documentary, Michael claimed that the whole family traveled to Florida to adopt Natalia from an agency called the Adoption by Shepherd Care. However, after the first season of this documentary series aired, the adoption agency Adoption by Shepherd Care released a statement to the public that said "Contrary to Mr. Barnett's claims ASC did not initiate any communication or contact with Mr and Mrs. Barnett regarding Natalie's adoption..."
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: "The adoption process for Natalia was carried out by a court in New Hampshire where the original adoptive family resided." So in further ep...
Em Schulz: You know when Taylor Swift, you know when Taylor Swift over had to write out publicly like "I would like to be excluded from the narrative," like don't fuckin include me. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Don't include me in the narrative.
Em Schulz: I have not... I was not part of this. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We were not part and parcel to this like shady ass shit that you're pulling here, sir, um and, and I think you know that just keep... Uh. My take on it is that he didn't wanna say, "Yeah, we paid the money or whatever to the Ciccones to buy a child." Like my guess is he didn't want it to come off that way. I don't know if that's true.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Um. But for what it's worth, the adoption agency was like, "Wait, what? He said that, No, we had nothing to do with it." So I don't know, very odd. People were left to wonder then of course, why Michael would fabricate an entire story about Natalie's adoption um if...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: This was a legitimate adoption, like why are you making up facts about it, uh so it's already looking shady as shit.
Em Schulz: Right, yeah. Immediately shady.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Very, very shady. So Michael expressed that he and Kristine were happy in their marriage, loving parents simply ready to welcome a new child into their life. So one of the uh couple's children is autistic, and Kristine had written a book about her son in this book, I looked it up, it's called "The Spark: A Mother's Story of Nurturing, Genius, and Autism," and the description reads, "Kristine Barnett's son Jacob has an IQ higher than Einstein's, a photographic memory, and he taught himself calculus in two weeks, but the story of Kristine's journey with Jake is all the more remarkable because his extraordinary mind was almost lost to autism" and...
Christine Schiefer: God, I just feel like this whole episode is like me giving glaring caveats or glaring like... Hello.
Em Schulz: Massive PSAs.
Christine Schiefer: Massive PSAs. Thank you. Um. Quick note or quick note on autism, uh there's a, there's a stigma surrounding autism, it's not gonna surprise any of us that you know even some parents feel that autism is a disease that steals away like who your child really is, right. There's almost this idea sometimes that there is a quote, "healthy, happy child" hiding somewhere inside, if we defeat the autism. Um but experts argue that an autistic person doesn't exist separately from their autism, um according to the Autistic Advocacy Organization, "autism is an edifying and meaningful component of a person's identity, and it defines a way in which an individual experiences and understands the world all around him or her, it is all pervasive." So essentially...
Em Schulz: Also and to... Go ahead, go ahead.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was just gonna say, the fact that there're even is like a, a standard of what a successful child looks like is like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And just say like, "Oh well, they have to be happy." And I'm like, Have you not met people with autism, cause I know plenty of happy autistic people...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. It sort, it sort of...
Em Schulz: What are you talking about? You win. That's it. You did it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you did it. Congratulations. Um. And, and I say all this because Kristine's book was a hit, it received a lot of praise, but of course, a lot of backlash because um autistic readers and parents of autistic children felt the book was focused not on her child Jake, but on Kristine sort of praising herself for like overcoming Jake's autism, if that you know what I mean.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um and other's criticized...
Em Schulz: Overcome?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah just like almost like she wrote it to be like, "Look what I overcame" as... Instead of saying like, "Here's how to provide the you know best support for your child."
Em Schulz: I defeated the big ugly monster in my child. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right it sort of... That sort of feels like what the criticism centered around. Um and others criticize Kristine for profiting off her son's stories, you know Jake was kind of brought around on a national tour did, 60 Minutes, all that good stuff. Um. But Kristine and Micheal...
Em Schulz: So he, so they exploited him on how gross his autism is.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I wouldn't... I mean I, I feel like there's two sides to this. Like I don't... I haven't read the book, so I don't know like how...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The, the criticism wasn't about her take on autism so much as it was about the book being more about her than her own son. Like if, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think, um I don't know enough, I'll be honest, I don't know enough about the book to like make claims about how she feels about it, or...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I'm ready to fight someone, I'm clear, I'm clear... I'm just ready to tussle that's all.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is fair. Um.
Em Schulz: I'm like, I'm ready to be triggered, so I'm like looking for a reason. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And, and I will say... You know I'm not saying that this is an excuse, but this is also decades ago, so who knows you know... Some people, some advocates for autism loved the book, some did not, I am not no expert, so I do not feel that I can make it claim either way, um hence my little PSA. So... And I have not read the book, so I don't know, it seemed to have helped a lot of people uh, you know, understand their kid's diagnoses and some people said "Nah this ain't it." So I don't, I don't quite know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um. But for what it's worth, uh Kristine and Michael felt like they could take on, uh, a child who had some medical challenges, and that is why they thought, "Okay, well, Natalia would be a perfect fit in our home." But things as you've probably suspected did not work out that way. Um. The night of Natalie's adoption, Kristine was giving her a bath when she started screaming for Michael for her husband, and she sounded terrified, so Michael comes running in into the bathroom and Kristine points out the Natalia has pubic hair.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And this becomes a major point of this whole story, this is like one of the lynch pins of this entire case.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. They later discovered that Natalia was experiencing and hiding menstrual cycles, uh which shock them because again, she's only six years old, so Natalie's pediatrician connected the Barnetts to a family whose daughter also had SEDc just like Natalia, and when the girls met Natalia was much bigger than the other child, and so the Barnetts started to like harbor the suspicion that Natalia was older than six because of her size and hormonal development.
Em Schulz: Could she have just not... Like could... Like the people who put her on essentially Facebook marketplace have just like... You know how when you put a puppy on there and you don't know how to read the age of the puppy and you're like, he's only three months old, and then like all of a sudden a horse is trampling into your house. Like do you think it could have been like... We're guessing she's five.
Christine Schiefer: I mean they have her birth certificate from Ukraine, so it's like it would have had to start...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I imagine at a different point, um I mean it could be... It could be that they didn't know and felt weird about it and guessed.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But the birth certificate said 2003, so they were you know... That was the age based on the paperwork they had. Um.
Em Schulz: So they're not like lying... They're just, they're just, they're... It's just weird that she looks bigger than someone else with her same condition.
Christine Schiefer: They start, they start, they start wondering if something else is happening here and uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it starts to get weird, so Michael described Natalia as "having the full forehead and fine cheek bones of an adult." Weird. Uh. And Michael said that he, yikes, "researched menses" and it wasn't possible for an Natalia to have her period at such a young age. But according to a pediatrician named Dr. Sarah Crickman, it is not uncommon for girls to start their period around eight or nine, um and even though Natalia was six, it's not impossible or even like that unusual for her to have started her period that young. Um. A University of Cincinnati shout-out, study found that about 10 to 15% of girls start puberty at seven or younger...
Em Schulz: [gasp] Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And, and, this is a... Yeah, this is a... It's termed precocious puberty. Um. It can have a number of causes, but essentially what happens is puberty, but very early, so you can get pubic hair, you can get under hair, under-arm hair growth, menstruation, acne, facial hair, voice deepening rapid growth. And precocious puberty aside, it's also not that weird that she was bigger than a peer, even though they had a different... Had the same condition, like children develop at different rates...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Just because they have the same condition doesn't mean like, oh, she's bigger than the child, that means she's older... You know that doesn't necessarily equate.
Em Schulz: Well right even if it's... Even if they didn't have the same condition, I mean, I have been this height since I was 10 years old. That's not weird.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly even people of average height are different sizes growing up, you know it doesn't really necessarily correlate to age. Um.
Em Schulz: Could it have just been because people were so unfamiliar with this rare condition that they assumed that their height should have been more similar... I don't know, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I was just... 'cause they met the family with the other, with the child who also had the same condition, and they went, "Well, she doesn't look anything like that, she's much bigger." Uh and that child hadn't started puberty, so they were like, "This doesn't ring through to us."
Em Schulz: Right. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Michael claimed that Natalia began blowing air into her cheeks to try to hide the definition in her face that revealed she was older than she claimed. Um and here is the crux of the whole documentary and where the story turns t-totally wild and where this becomes like a huge international sensation, the Barnetts claim that they, at this point, became convinced that their adopted daughter Natalia was an adult, claiming to be a child and hiding in their home. So if you at all think that sounds familiar, there was a film in 2009 called the Orphan, in which an adult woman has a rare condition that allows her to pass as a child, and uh she poses as a young Russian orphan and terrorizes the family who adopts her. And her Natalia's story has since often times been compared to this film. Michael also found it suspicious that N-Natalia had no Ukrainian accent, despite her having lived in Ukraine for the first few years of her life, she also didn't seem to know any Ukrainian. But at the same time Natalia was already living in the United States with an English-speaking family for two years before the Barnetts adopted her in 2010. And like young children pretty quickly can adapt to languages and lose accents, um so it's not unheard of. Uh but Michael also said that just months after adopting Natalia, they began to witness her dark side and...
Em Schulz: Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We're going on a roller coaster here. I am still at the top of the roller coaster you're on the loop-de-loop.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just like plummeting everybody down. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Um. So it's true she was an adult, this wasn't like a random theory? This was true, or what...
Christine Schiefer: This is their assumption, this is the, this is the point of contention that this entire case revolves around. Is she an adult...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Faking being a child, or is she a child after all?
Em Schulz: Okay. And the movie was... Came before her?
Christine Schiefer: Good question, great question. The movie came out uh, hold on let me see before they had ever even met Natalia.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: If I have that correct...
Em Schulz: So it's almost like if this theory is true home girl could have seen the movie and it inspired her to do the same thing or this happened and then a movie came out?
Christine Schiefer: Let me check and make sure I have this right. Um.
Em Schulz: She didn't even think... Okay, assuming this isn't a child, assuming this is an adult, assuming they're right. This is an adult, she didn't think like, "Oh, I need to fucking disguise some shit, I need to... Downstairs," you know what I'm saying? Like "if they're going to be bathing me, like I'm a child and I'm trying to get away with it, shouldn't I may be dress the part."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well part, part of the argument was that she was hiding her, her period from them, and part of their argument was, "Oh, she was trying to hide the she had a period," but then the other argument is like, "Well, maybe she was scared and young and didn't know what it was, didn't know what a period was." And was like, "Why am I bleed..." You know what I mean? So it's sort of like you know they say, "Oh yeah, she was hiding from us," but then other people say, "Well, yeah, she's a traumatized child and doesn't want... " You know. So it's, it's just a really wild case because people like could not agree on this, and it's like how... Like what a wild concept that we can't figure out you know if this is a child.
Em Schulz: We still don't know the answer. Do we not know the answer?
Christine Schiefer: We'll get... We'll get there.
Em Schulz: Okay, okay, okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Michael is claiming that just after months of adopting Natalia, they began to witness her dark side, and her dark side um was in fact behavior that children who have experienced trauma often exhibit.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Such as urinating in place... Certain places. Defecating in places you're not supposed to. Uh. She would steal her brother's toys and threw them out into the trash. Michael claimed she would sometimes throw uh her brother's toys into the traffic, into the street to bait them into traffic, um but that's... You know how Michael put it... We don't know if that's exactly what her intent was. He also said that Natalia was hiding a knife under her bed...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Um but then you know people who have been in these kind of traumatic situations have said like, "Yeah, if a, if a child doesn't feel safe and is a-adapting to a new family, they might act in ways, act out in ways like this. They might, you know they might feel the need to get a knife to protect themselves." You know so it's... Again, very back and forth. Um. People really were split on this, Michael's son Jake, who is now an adult said in an interview, that quote, "the situation is incredibly confusing." Uh he finds it difficult to piece together his memories of Natalia when she lived with the Barnetts and he was afraid of the possibility of revisiting the memories of living with Natalia and the stress of the time. He said "it was just a very high stress time for their whole family." He said "It was not quite as hunky-dory as his parents made it sound." Michael and Kristine would often video tape uh Natalia like confronting her on camera and record her reactions as they scolded her for misbehaving and more serious issues like lying about her period, and they would film her and uh scold her. Michael and Kristine claim they confronted Natalia about the knives under her bed and she told them she planned to kill them in their sleep. But of course, there's no recording of that, so that's another...
Em Schulz: What? Oof. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: He said she said, and in fact, it seems like all the accusations against Natalie just so happened to have, have no witnesses outside of Kristine and Michael.
Em Schulz: Ah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So let me give you one example. There's one incident that's supposed to have happened in public, uh and here's what allegedly happened. According to Kristine, the family was visiting a creamery in Indianapolis when Natalia tried to kill her mother Kristine by knocking her over and dragging her toward an electric fence.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But, employees at the creamery later said, "Oh, we thought Kristine just like tripped and fell over, and there was no dramatic scene with Natalia attacking her mother, there was no elec... The electric fence was not on, there was no reason that she would have even known it was an electric fence." Um also a lot of people have pointed out like, "Is it really conceivable for Natalia, even if she is an adult, she is like four foot something. Right, and is it really conceivable...
Em Schulz: Like could she drag her?
Christine Schiefer: That she... A full on knockout drag out drag her into an electric fence? How would she know it would kill her, it just... And the fact that the witnesses later said like, "we saw nothing like that happened."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "Nothing. We, we saw the mom fall over. That's it." So who knows? But Michael said they brought Natalia to multiple therapists who didn't believe them, so red flag in my mind, uh until they finally found someone who would agree with their story. And he said the therapist diagnosed Natalia with sociopathy and said that the Barnetts were "in extreme danger for their lives."
Em Schulz: Pffft.
Christine Schiefer: So according to Michael, the therapist told the Barnetts that "there was nothing anyone could do to help Natalia, she was a lost cause," so fucked up. "She was a sociopath who would harm her family given the chance and they needed to cut ties." However, people have since criticized that sociopathy is not a diagnosis, it is a, a behavior or, or a side... A symptom of anti-social personality disorder, which isn't assigned to patients under the age of 18 anyway. Um. And if Natalia was a child, this diagnosis, if it actually exists and Michael isn't lying, wouldn't... Would be inappropriate instead, uh this could all just be the result of trauma where she's acting out and she's you know attacking her parents...
Em Schulz: Sure, which...
Christine Schiefer: And and things that you, you hear happen when children have gone through really traumatic experience.
Em Schulz: Which by the way, this is all like a very good reminder that like I don't... Again, I can only speak on it from a very surface level, what I have learned in recent years, but like this is just a good reminder that if you plan on adopting a child, it's not just adopting a kid, you have to... It is in your best interest, at the very least to do some really intense, uh, educating on like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: What it looks like to, to bring someone in who has gone through incredible traumas before you even showed up, and so like um... I don't really know what I'm saying here, but this is just a, a nice PSA that like in the world of adoption, I think it would be problematic to just like pick a puppy out of the box on the sidewalk. And just take them home expect their life to begin here and like it can negate everything they've gone through.
Christine Schiefer: Just assume... Yes and to say "You better join my family in the way that we want you to," and it's like you know...
Em Schulz: Especially if they don't look like you and they're from another background and they've got other cultures and I mean it's just... There's so many... It's not just your life begins...
Christine Schiefer: And medical diagnoses...
Em Schulz: When the kid shows up, like you have to be prepared for whatever, whatever they need. So.
Christine Schiefer: For any baggage they bring... Yeah, exactly, and like the people who are able to, and who do you know, provide healthy homes for, for adopted children are just one of my, one of my, one of my heroic, uh, nods go to you. [chuckle] I just, I'm so impressed by people who are able to, you know, make happy healthy homes for, for any child really, but especially, you know, fostering, adopting, it's such an important thing. Umm...
Em Schulz: There's such an episode of PSAs just everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm telling you Em, I just, they don't stop. They never stop.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They don't stop, people need to learn.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So, umm, according to Healthline, "children who don't receive nurturing attention from caregivers tend to grow up learning to take care of themselves." And that's just a coping mechanism because no one else will.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so some children who experience abuse, violence, and manipulation from an early age, uh, may come to model this behavior as they navigate their own conflicts. That's according to Healthline. And so, we don't know, we don't know have the background on how nurtured Natalia was in the orphanage before her adoption. Umm, and adoption itself is recognized as an inherently traumatic process. Even if it is smooth, even if it, uh, you know, has no hitches and it ends up happy, it's still considered a traumatic process. And the same, like I said earlier, with re-homing, it's just an additional trauma. Even though, even if it's for the best, and even if it goes smoothly, it's still a very, uh, fraught time, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For, for a child. So, other accusations against Natalia by the Barnetts and their extended family were that she tried to poison Kristine and that she stood over her parents' bed at night with a knife. So Kristine used social media to reach out to Judith. This was a woman who had previously wanted to adopt Natalia, uh, who and who was also a person with dwarfism and didn't have the 25 grand that the Ciccones allegedly wanted. So she reached out to Judith, Kristine did, and told Judith that Natalia was scaring her and threatening to hurt the family. Now, Judith, who's a school teacher, was familiar with similar behaviors in other children. And she said in an interview, "I've been threatened. So what? That child needs help. So you get that child help," like, you don't just turn around and say, oh, no, like, I'm scared. You know, she was like not having it. Right. But the Barnetts claimed they were convinced that Natalia was not a child in need, but a dangerous adult who lied their way, a la the Orphan into their once happy family.
Christine Schiefer: And more than one pediatrician examined Natalia and confirmed that she was in fact a child. Uh, but the Barnetts were determined to get her out of their home. So in 2012, two years after adopting her, Michael and Kristine convinced a judge that Natalia had not grown at all in four years. Meaning she must be at her full height as an adult.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, to clarify, any growth or lack thereof that Natalia may have experienced, uh, could have been due to dwarfism, could have been due to just, she was not going through a growth spurt at that time. Umm, but the judge agreed with the Barnetts and legally changed Natalia's age from nine years old to 22. Yeah.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Sculz: Whaaat?
Christine Schiefer: It's fucking messy. They changed her birth date, her birth year from 2003 to 1989. And finally free of their responsibility to raise her the Barnetts got an apartment for her and left her there.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Christine, this is like, I've never been... the... so bewildered. I like usually feel like I, like fucking...
Christine Schiefer: Is this not the most shocking?
Em Schulz: Annoyingly chatty. Like, but... I... the flabbers are gasted I gotta be honest.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Gast your flabbers 'cause we are going down the rabbit hole.
Em Schulz: So wait, do with, maybe I'm not supposed to know the answer yet, but...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Is it an adult or a kid?
Christine Schiefer: Huh?
Em Schulz: Am I not supposed to know yet?
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh, if she's an adult or child. No, you're not supposed to know.
Em Schulz: But like... the actual age?
Christine Schiefer: We're not, we're not there yet.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. Okay. Because...
Christine Schiefer: Flabber your gasts and get ready.
Em Schulz: I wanna, I wanna have so much to say. Like, usually I feel like you're thinking like, did someone order a yappuccinos Jesus Christ. But [laughter] like today, I like, can't fucking think of a single word to say I like, so, okay. So either, by the way, if they're right and it's an adult, think of like how fucking gossip. They like the think of how trapped like the, the true fear of being trapped with this person if they're right. If they're not right think of the trauma of a little fucking child being told like, not only were you not wanted by multiple parents, but also you're fucking old looking. And you...
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like...
Em Schulz: You're freaking us out.
Christine Schiefer: So bad. It's all just so bad way.
Em Schulz: You're freaking us out. We think you're a serial killer. Maybe you have sociopathy, like...
Christine Schiefer: Like you're disgusting 'cause you have pubic hair at age nine.
Em Schulz: Yes!
Christine Schiefer: You know, I mean, it's just so sick. Like the...
Em Schulz: Either way someone is either way fully traumatized.
Christine Schiefer: Either way is so twisted, right? Like this. So this is why this like, gripped the nation. You can see why people were like divided. People were like treating this like, the biggest mystery of all time. Umm, so yeah, Michael basically dropped her off at an apartment alone because legally she was an adult.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And every now and then dropped off groceries. Uh.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Her dw... Her dwarfism made it difficult for her to complete tasks that adults with dwarfism would also require accommodations for. Um, like she couldn't reach the washing machine. Many of the surfaces in the apartment, uh, climbing the stairs posed a challenge. Uh, Natalia's neighbors started to notice, like, someone who looked like a child was living next door, was often dirty, unfed, seemed to be completely unable to care for herself.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like, this is where my heart breaks. Umm, she would wander into her neighbor's homes uninvited and seemed extremely lonely.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And her com... And her... It's really sad. And her neighbors complained so often that her lease was terminated and the Barn-Barnetts picked her up and dropped, dropped her off in another apartment with no resources, support or accommodation.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And then they moved to Canada.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: This is also, I mean, like, I'm, I'm saying only beyond obvious truths here.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Only like, so everyone's gonna roll their eyes and go, yeah, join the club. I know, but like, the ableism kicking in right now is crazy. Like, just every now and then I'm reminded of it 'cause I'm just thinking at this point, I'm like, is this an adult or a kid? And I'm like, the, the suspense of this information is what I'm hooked on. But then I have moments as you're telling this story where I'm like, and this is someone who like, has a condition and truly only because of...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That, that aside. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, only because of her condition, this potential, 'cause I don't know the information yet, this potential child is, I mean, like, fully experiencing child abuse because of, because their parents who took them in, did no research on their condition, or they know so little about the condition and they're just assuming something must be wrong, you must be this. And then on top of that, you're gonna leave her in a place without any supports. Oh my God. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It's it's very sickening. It it's really sickening. And like they claim, oh, well, we paid her rent and utilities. Umm, but, but, but.
Em Schulz: Get her a ladder too. Damn. Like she can't fucking fucking clean her clothes.
Christine Schiefer: Assholes. So they gave her rent and utilities, but uh, at one point they forgot to pay the bills from Canada and she spent days without power.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Like she didn't know how to get power on. Right. So eventually, even if she was okay, oh God. Okay.
Em Schulz: Even if she's an adult.
Christine Schiefer: Eventually. Right. Like, she's not, she's clearly not prepared to live on her own. And, and it's, it's been made very clear when she's unfed, unable to feed herself, unable to care for herself, unable... You know what I mean? Like, even if she is an adult, like you are now neglecting this person that you were supposed to care for.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So either way it's disturbing. Umm, but eventually a woman named Cynthia Man noticed Natalia and stepped in to care for her questions were raised at this point about the Barnetts a abandoning a disabled child, and then like fleeing the fucking country.
Em Schulz: Like I like how questions are raised and not Cynthia Man...
Christine Schiefer: Questions are raised...
Em Schulz: I'm calling the fucking cops like.
Christine Schiefer: Hello.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Ding-dong. Does anyone know about this? So the Barnetts began to tell their story in the media claiming that Natalia was this violent, manipulative adult out to get them. And this story is, that's when this story became a media frenzy, because it was dubbed the real life orphan by news outlets.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and people started drawing comparisons between Natalia and the villain in the horror movie. Um, and years later, people mistakenly believed that the movie was inspired by Natalia. Uh, but it was kind of...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It, it came out before Natalia had ev, even met the Barnetts.
Em Schulz: But if she's an adult, and this was her plan all along. She could've watched that movie and been like...
Christine Schiefer: That could've been the argument. Exactly.
Em Schulz: That's so fucking plan right there. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: However, the other side of that is, it's possible that Barnetts saw that movie and were like, well, this could be happening at our house.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: If we want it to, and we wanna get rid of her.
Em Schulz: It is getting to a point. Like, I honestly, if she's an adult and if she was sleeping with a knife under her pillow, and if this really was one whole big ruse and they caught onto it, I don't know legally what I would have done. I mean, I don't, I would have also felt trapped because I know how it would've looked 'cause it's a little kid or to everybody else. But like, maybe it's an adult who still has a condition, by the way, that needs to be like paid attention to with support.
Christine Schiefer: Accommodated. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But like, I, umm, yeah, I don't know what I would do and to feel that trapped, but at the same time, I, I would have to be somewhat aware that like, I have to save face and I can't leave this assuming, uh, or alleged child alone, or else the police are gonna come to me and I'm still gonna look really bad, even if I know I'm 100% right. And I was not safe.
Christine Schiefer: Well remember. No, they, but they changed her birth date. She's a legal adult. She's 22 according all the...
Em Schulz: Oh, right, right, right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: All the records. So they just said, okay, great. You're an adult. Bye. You know, and they...
Em Schulz: It still has to look like at, at the, like, at the very least, they had to be worried that people would look at them and think this couple collectively, they have a a...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And that's why...
Em Schulz: An issue, like a mental health problem.
Christine Schiefer: Immediately. That's immediately why they jumped onto every news outlet and said this, this is an adult. She was ready to attack us. We had to save our family. Like they were jumping into the media to like claim their side of the story. And pretty quickly the public turned against Natalia. It may may have been like the idea that the horror movie had come to life was like an exciting concept, or people just couldn't believe that a child could have pubic hair. You know, that young, you know, who knows what, what it is. But people pretty quickly...
Em Schulz: The trauma, if this is a child, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So internet forms dedicated to the controversy were created with many people sympathizing with the Barnetts, and then people would like post photos of Natalia to like determine whether her features were like those of an adult or a child. Of course, ableism ran rampant on all these forums. They were sensationalizing dwarfism as something that like made her inherently untrustworthy and like that she was lying, you know? Um, and people of course latched onto the invasive details about her body, like pubic hair, her menses.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And as the years passed, Natalia, who was now considered to be in her late 20s, legally, uh, insisted that she was still a child. That she was a teenager, and she fought to have her age corrected. So it's around this time that a woman came forward from Ukraine claiming to be Natalia's birth mother, and said, " gave birth to Natalia in 2003." Um, then more information came out in Natalia's favor when Vincent and Nicole DePaul, a couple who also have dwarfism, came forward in an interview and said they had also attempted to adopt Natalia in 2009 before she went to the Barnetts. And Natalia stayed with the DePauls several times for long weekends to like try and get to know the family. And the DePauls released photos of Natalia playing with their daughter. Uh, and in the photos, you can see she's like missing baby teeth. Like her baby teeth had fallen out. Like she's a, a little girl.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they basically said, "this is absolutely ridiculous that, uh, that anybody could claim this as an adult." And the idea of Natalia at like age eight or whatever, dragging her mother toward an electric fence, especially at her small stature, she, she had difficulty walking, let alone like dragging an adult woman toward an electric fence.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they, they came forward and said, "this is absolutely outrageous." Um, and their daughter who was 14 at the time of the interview, remembered that she had a very good time with Natalia as just a another little girl. And so she, the daughter said she found it ridiculous the way Natalia was being portrayed as this villain in the media. And this sort of short feature started to kind of turn the tide, uh, in people's minds toward Natalia, umm, especially the photos with her missing baby teeth.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And people left comments like seeing this video changed my entire perspective on this case. And I'm starting to think she is actually a teenager. Umm, and if she is a teen, then this has got to be one of the saddest cases I've ever seen.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Agreed.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just horrible. So seeing Natalia as a teenager compared to her childhood photos where she was supposedly an adult further convince people that she was telling the truth. Because you can see in the photos where she's a teenager compared to the photos where she's a child, she has developed and grown like significantly. So like there's no way she was an adult.
Em Schulz: She was so, she's definitely, yeah. So it's definitely leaning more towards she's a child at this point.
Em Schulz: Yes, exactly. So one person wrote, she's clearly been through a lot of growth and development throughout the years. She would not have changed as much if she was really an adult this whole time. So then attention turned to the Barnetts who were now charged in the US for neglect of a dependent since it was no longer a minor legally, but she was still a dependent. Umm, even if Natalia's legal age excused them from abandoning a minor, prosecutors argued they were still meant to take care of her. They had a responsibility toward her, especially due to her disability and the fact that they had adopted her. Uh, and so in the end, of course, Michael was acquitted and charges against Kristine were dropped. And, uh, the Discovery Plus documentary came out, the Curious case of Natalia Grace and this, uh, documentary featured Michael who from the moment he came on the screen, I thought, I don't trust this guy with...
Em Schulz: Really, as soon as you looked at him, you knew.
Christine Schiefer: My gut was like, this guy's trouble. I just don't know what it is.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And this is my own personal opinion. But I looked at that guy and thought, I don't trust you. I don't know why. There's something about him.
Em Schulz: I don't like you. There's something about you. I'm not feeling.
Christine Schiefer: I don't like you. Something about you I don't trust. Uh, so Michael described in this documentary, a perfect marriage, this like idyllic home life before Natalia came and wrecked it all. Um but weird in reality, there was proof of domestic battery charges against Michael for allegedly choking Kristine in their home.
Em Schulz: Ooh. Your feeling was right, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so. Huh? I was like, this guy is trouble, trouble, trouble.
Em Schulz: You took one look and went, I I tap out of this one. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I said as a fellow, Christine, I do not like the look of this guy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? Uh...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So following the first Discovery Plus series, suddenly there came another addition called The Curious Case of Natalia Grace: Natalia Speaks and I, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh hell yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I watched this, I had a really hard time watching this. It was really hard for me because at this point I was like, pretty confident this was a child. And I was like...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: This is just gonna be all about child abuse. Um, so in this, in her, basically she got a chance to tell her side of the story finally. And Natalia describes physical abuse at the hands of Kristine Barnett claiming her mother would do all sorts of terrible things, sprayed her in the face with pepper spray...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: and would then force her to wait 10 minutes before she could rinse her eyes out. Uh.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And, and yeah. So when all these, when this came forward, all of a sudden, our pal Michael, he comes out and he, he and Kristine had since been divorced, he came forward and he completely changed his story. What a shocker. Uh, he now claims that his ex-wife Kristine, was a master manipulator who abused Natalia and turned him against their daughter. He's like, yeah, Natalia and I are both quote, "incredible victims."
Em Schulz: Okay. I don't know what's to believe anymore, Christine. I gotta be honest. I don't know how to react.
Christine Schiefer: This is so nuts. I just, I can't, I guess I just can't with this guy saying all this, this shit in the first documentary about how oh, she wanted to kill me and she's this horrible adult, and we knew she had pubic hair and she was on her period. And then all of a sudden she comes forward and says, "no, like I faced pretty bad abuse in that house." And he goes, "yeah, me too. You're right. We're both victims." It's like you just made a whole documentary about this child that you were caring for, and now you're saying, oh, you're both in the same boat. Like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he claimed he and Natalia are both incredible victims of an other worldly abuse.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Says the man who choked his own wife, uh, Michael. And...
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm back on track. I got it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, remember that, remember that whole thing? Um.
Em Schulz: I forgot for a second, but I'm back.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So Michael and legal experts on the case suggested that Kristine believes she, this is what the, this is not my claim. This is what, uh, Michael and his legal team are claiming that Kristine, uh, believed she turned her autistic son into a genius and was hoping to like, take Natalia and, and turn it into a similar like, bestselling story.
Em Schulz: Ohh.
Christine Schiefer: Um, Kristine, you know, that that's his claim. That's Michael's claim. And so Kristine had made profit and enjoyed, uh, quite a bit of praise for her memoir about her son Jake. And Michael claims that she wanted to do the same thing with Natalia. It just didn't go as planned. And Natalia herself said, "Kristine said that adopting me was this mission of love. And never once did I see any love. I feel like it was a mission of boosting her ego type of thing. I feel like she just wanted people to be like, oh my goodness, she's this amazing person." So in the new special, Natalia confronts Michael, who told Natalia that he too was a victim of Kristine's manipulation. Uh, and he said that "he and Natalia had the same monster and her name was Kristine." Uh.
Em Schulz: That's what I, Eva and I say too in our tell all.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. I was like, that's too easy of a sound clip. Of a sound bite.
Em Schulz: It's such a low, low hanging fruit. I'm sorry but.
Christine Schiefer: Low hanging fruit. Indeed.
Em Schulz: Two people terrorized by a Kristine been there. So.
Christine Schiefer: Been there, done that. I know, uh, Wahaha, um.
Em Schulz: Wahaha.
Christine Schiefer: I never made any profit being your monster, but you know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I guess that's not true. This podcast is my job.
Em Schulz: I beg to differ.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Nevermind. So anyway, he claims he tried to leave Kristine numerous times. This is all he said, she said, very nasty divorce, you know, and Michael's complete reversal on these accusations against Natalia. And now saying like, oh, no, Natalia is a victim as much as anyone, even though he just said she was an adult trying to kill him in his sleep. Uh, this of course turned people even more toward Natalia's side 'cause they're like, this guy is lying about anything and everything.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so Cynthia Mans and Bishop Mans, they were the couple who took Natalia in when she was nine, when they sort of found her living on her own, said that they didn't have problems with Natalia as a child with, and they had several other children. Uh, one of their children, Genesis did say that Natalia bit her, um, when she was a baby, uh, and Natalia was 10. And according to the Mans, "she has been violent in a typical way like most kids do. You know, most kids fight, argue, nothing unusual to where there was just crazy unrest in that sort of way. There's nothing dangerous about Natalia at all. Absolutely not." And finally, this is kind of where we get some more concrete answers. There was a new type of DNA test, uh, that came out that was used to determine Natalia's age. Umm apparently...
Em Schulz: Ooh it's like counting the rings of a tree.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Apparently it's really, really hard to determine the age of a person, which fun fact. Um, it's not simple. Uh, it's, it's also not necessarily accurate, but recent advances in DNA age determination are, are getting pretty accurate, pretty close. Um, and according to an article on Oxford University's Department of Oncology website, the method works quote, "surprisingly well on average calculating age to within three years of a person's real age."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So the window is pretty close, it's about three years. So, you know, some other behaviors like, uh, smoking and exercise and that kind of thing kind of skew it a little bit, but typically it's a pretty conclusive test. And so they did this test in 2023, and ultimately the test concluded that as of 2023, uh, Natalia is close to or around the age of 22, whereas the legal age she had been changed to was 34. So in other words...
Em Schulz: So she was a kid.
Christine Schiefer: She'd, she'd been a child. Yes. Yes. And Natalia read the, and, and the, the hard part is like Natalia was just thrown into all this and was just confused and scared and was being accused of all these things, didn't really understand what was going on. So she tearfully read the results and said, "this is so big because literally this has been 13 years of just two people lying their butts off. They ruined a kid's life. They painted me as some big monster." And although Michael has changed his story, Kristine made a statement on Facebook of all places, uh, denying any accusations of abuse. Uh, she said that Michael and Natalia might have the same monster, but it sure isn't her. And according to her, Natalia is a manipulative and dangerous sociopath who will do whatever it takes to hurt the Barnetts and protect herself.
Christine Schiefer: So she basically is still claiming that Natalia is this adult, like scheming to like ruin families for some unknown reason. Um, but people have really turned and are no longer convinced of Natalia's supposed dark side. Um, however, this is where things get kind of weird again, where there's like another kind of question mark, because at the end of Natalia Speaks, there's kind of this like weird twist. Like it sort of ends on an ominous note. Um, there's a phone call that comes in, it's like a voicemail or a phone call from the Mans, her current adoptive parents where her father on the phone claims "something isn't right with Natalia. She has hit a new low and they are done with her." And that's like how the docuseries ends. But...
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: After this, I know. So after this aired, her mother made a statement, and I'm quoting this from E Online. Her mother said, "we are absolutely perfect. No, she doesn't live with us, but we are fine." So people are like, okay. So what happened? I don't know. Um, Cynthia said, "Natalia is living with friends and that they maintain regular contact with her." Uh, she shared with the outlet a screenshot of herself and her adoptive daughter during a FaceTime video chat. Uh, Natalia is currently taking a break from social media as of late January, 2024. So...
Em Schulz: I wonder why.
Christine Schiefer: So as we record this... I know, right? I can't blame her. Um, but in previous weeks she had been quite active, uh, comments on her Instagram and TikTok accounts have been overwhelmingly positive, thankfully supporting her in the wake of like the updated Natalia Speaks docuseries. And a few comments have demanded answers regarding the ominous voicemail at the, uh, conclusion of the documentary. Like, wait a minute, is everything okay? Like, what's going on?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, however, in a recent New Year's post, uh, Natalia captioned a video 2023 was amazing, but 2024 is gonna be awesome. And she included the hashtag family forever and tagged her family's shared TikTok account, indicating that they're most likely on good terms, she said, of her family, the Mans quote, "It has been a really long journey. I have always wondered if I would be able to find someone that would actually love me, but then I met my parents and it's been different ever since. It's been a good different." And that is the Curious Case of Natalia Grace.
Em Schulz: Curious or just full-blown miserable.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrific.
Em Schulz: So sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's so sad. It's so sad. It's like...
Em Schulz: I really I really was banking on you telling me it was an adult, so I could just go nutso.
Christine Schiefer: You know, and I almost wonder, like, I almost wonder if people wanted to believe it was an adult because it's just such a less...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Tragic. Like, then you have to face, oh, these people did this to a 6-year-old and a 9-year-old you know what I mean.
Em Schulz: I wanted to believe it was an adult 'cause I, I was like, there's no way.
Christine Schiefer: It, it makes it easier to swallow. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's disturbing. And you know, you never know, especially when it comes to things like puberty. Like you never know what kind of, um, if where you grow up, what kind of like trauma you experience fairly young, like how that will affect you hormonally, etcetera. I mean, I just, I find it also ridiculous that they were able to find a judge to change her age. And I mean, for God's sake, it's horrible. It is horrible.
Em Schulz: Wow. I has she...
Christine Schiefer: She's doing, doing well. I think from what I can tell, as of this month, she seems to be doing okay.
Em Schulz: Do you imagine if she just like meets someone or like is on like a, like on a bumble or like a hinge and it's just looking at people's bios and it's like, oh, my favorite movie's like The Orphan. She has to be like, oh my God. Like just nope.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, nope, nope.
Em Schulz: Nope, nope. Oh my god, my god. I feel so bad. I don't even know what to say about it. Well..
Christine Schiefer: It's it's sad.
Em Schulz: Per usual.
Christine Schiefer: And like the missing baby teeth photo is just so heartbreaking 'cause you're like, that's a little girl. Like that's a small child.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And the fact that Cynthia, when she found her was like, she just looked dirty and would walk into people's houses and was just lonely and just wanted someone to talk to.
Christine Schiefer: She is nine.
Em Schulz: How did she even survive? I mean, that's its own story. Like how did she survive?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, she was like unfed. She was, she was like un bathed. Like she barely did, you know, she really didn't know how to take care of herself.
Em Schulz: That's its own like...
Christine Schiefer: From what I remember. That some of the neighbors would drop off groceries and like some of they would like check on her. Um, yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's just crazy.
Em Schulz: I hope she's okay in the world.
Christine Schiefer: Me too. I hope 2024 is the year she hoped it would crack up to be.
Em Schulz: Well, Baba Vanga says that it's not Putin's year. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's right. Not some of us are not gonna have a good year according to Baba Vanga, but yeah. You know, hopefully Natalia does.
Em Schulz: Hopefully she has a good year. Um. Well, Christine, you've done it again. I don't know how to feel for the rest of the day, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: [chuckles] I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: What was I gonna do today to make myself feel better? I was gonna watch Hillary Duff. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah we can do that. Maybe let's just go do our after hours and watch Hillary Duff.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Well that feels nice, yeah let's do that. Okay, well if you would like to go listen to um us talk more, if you'd like to hear Christine really weirdly sultry say after hours and I have to tolerate it every time.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta pay for Patreon to hear that voice.
Em Schulz: Uh it's a real only fans kind of voice. And I have to interact with it. So you get it every week, if you'd like to join Patreon. And until then uh we'll see ya, we'll see ya next week. Uh fun fact by the way we are still on tour so please come see us if we're in your area.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
