[intro music]
Em Schulz: Oh, I'm back with the Christine Schiefer, the America's Hircine Shifter. I could never be so lucky. Oh wait, I am, every single Sunday, every single week, every single moment of my life. She never, never escapes me. Now I'm wondering, is it a blessing or a curse? Has she invaded my mind? We'll never know.
Christine Schiefer: No wonder...
ES: Your turn.
CS: I'm always so sweaty. It's like I'm always around myself and like, woo. Just get a little, a little, a little worked up. Hot under the collar. You know what I'm saying?
Em Schulz: Ah! I don't know. Show us your shoulders. I'll tell you. Um.
Christine Schiefer: No thanks. I'm un-showered today.
Em Schulz: I feel like, you know, if I were also a known cryptid, that's a, that's a burden.
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: I mean, I wonder if you go to the conferences yet with Sasquatch and everyone, do you talk about your feelings?
Christine Schiefer: It's funny to think like, I sometimes I think about like, who burdened me with this identity? And then I'm like...
Em Schulz: I couldn't tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. It's Emothy.
Em Schulz: I think you just like, uh, they've gotta have a, like a group therapy where all of you really talk about the, the, the limelight that you must suffer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we do. It's called Slam Poetry, Cryptid Slam Poetry.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Have you been there?
Em Schulz: I have. It's weirdly erotic.
Christine Schiefer: God I love the... You guys. Do you know about the Cryptid Slam Poetry? I know that like, it doesn't really always hit hard for a lot of people, but man, we have fun doing it in the fall. So when it comes back, you better get, get your butt over there. We have a, a good time.
Em Schulz: A-again, it ends up wildly erotic, [laughter] so.
Christine Schiefer: It does get weird really fast. So I would warn you. Yeah.
Em Schulz: People, we say, you send us your poetry, your personal poetry about cryptids and at least half of them are people smashing mothman, like to smithereens. So...
Christine Schiefer: It tell a lot about our listenership and their psyches. But you know, I mean, I don't judge. I just am fascinated, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: But somebody wrote a poem about you last time, and it got really weird.
Em Schulz: Were they smashing me to smithereens? What was happening?
Christine Schiefer: Do you remember? We were like, um, this is a little alarming. You don't remember that?
Em Schulz: Uh. Obviously I learned... I just...
Christine Schiefer: Wow, it...
Em Schulz: I just shrugged it off.
Christine Schiefer: Must happen so often that you don't even remember. Okay.
Em Schulz: I do remember there being a really intense poem about me. I just don't know how it ended. And I'm a little scared about...
Christine Schiefer: You were deeply clear uncomfortable. Yeah. [laughter] Uh, but the person now is probably, their feelings are hurt, 'cause you just don't even remember.
Em Schulz: Oh, well. I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well. Sorry, try again next time.
Em Schulz: Maybe they'll write again. Maybe they'll write again. I don't know. I'm sure I could go into Google and type in poetry about Em or something. I'll find it. I could always find it.
Em Schulz: Oh it's, oh, it's there. I mean, I'm sure I have it under my, uh, pillow. I mean, uh, somewhere in my... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, oh. Yeah. Look, if someone ever writes a poem and it starts with I'm showing my shoulders for you, I'll know that it was you, it it was just a diary entry from Christine.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Christine. We just finished up our second leg of our tour. We went to Salt Lake, we went to Denver. How did you feel about the experience? Did you have fun? I want your highs and your lows.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. Thank you for asking. I had a great time. Um, we had a, we had a lot of fun. I slept 14 hours the first night I got there. Um...
Em Schulz: Is that a high or a low?
Christine Schiefer: Which, I mean, definitely a high, uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Except I woke up at 4:00 PM and we, and I looked at my phone and it said, meet in the lobby at 4:30. And I went, uh oh um.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So aside, aside from that, I had a great time, but you had a much more involved experience.
Em Schulz: I went this-a-way and that-a-way. I...
Christine Schiefer: You went every which way.
Em Schulz: I did not know how gay Salt Lake is. And I guess that makes sense that in like a really religious, uh, town, that there would be...
Christine Schiefer: I think like the town itself isn't gay. I think you just found the right pockets. Do you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I don't know. A lot of places...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause...
Em Schulz: I just stumbled into places every, and they were just covered in rainbow flags.
Christine Schiefer: Almost every street corner is like named after that fucking guy, Joseph Smith. It's like outrageous...
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying, I feel like I was surprised because it's such a religious area. But I guess that if there's religion in an area, there's deconstructioners in the area. I like, I guess like, because also did, you know Salt Lake City, they got a hopping, hippin, happening speakeasy scene. And that would make sense too.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that makes sense to me 'cause people want, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Definitely, I love that.
Em Schulz: It's like you're not supposed to be drinking. So now, but it's so interesting, the psychology of like, it's like specifically speakeasies not bars because it's like part of them still feel a little naughty about it and they're like, oh, we're doing it in hiding. But then also, like so many people apparently have like, I don't know, maybe they're just all transplants and they all happen to be queer and they're just taking over Salt Lake.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe.
Em Schulz: It was just, it was just odd how many places I went like, like unprompted that were just covered in rainbow flags. I was like, damn.
Christine Schiefer: I love that. I mean, damn. I'm so glad you found the right, yeah, I'm so glad about that because I don't know much about the city since I slept 14 hours through my experience there. But, um, you know, I know about the big whale and I know some other things.
Em Schulz: The whale.
Christine Schiefer: And yeah. And...
Em Schulz: There's, I'll tell you, I had the best, the best donut of my life. I'm like almost scared to say it 'cause I don't want it to be, um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you don't want people to like ruin it.
Em Schulz: I wanna make sure that one's available to me next time I'm there. But it's called the Chubby Baker.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And the donut was called the Brown Butter Donut. It took my breath away. I went three times.
CS: Brown butter donut. I didn't know that. That sounds delicious.
Em Schulz: It was everything. And then I went to obviously East High, Go Wildcats, because that's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Where they, they filmed High School Musical in Salt Lake City at an actual high school called East High.
Christine Schiefer: I had, I had no idea about that by the way. Like, I don't know if, if everybody knows that, but for, I mean, and it's not surprising to me if I'm the only one who's never heard that before. But I didn't know.
Em Schulz: Here's the range of people that I'm friends with. I showed Christine a picture of the front of the high school, which looks like it's straight outta the movie by the way. I showed it to Christine and she went, where is that? I kind of feel like I know that a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: I, okay. I guessed two things. And one of them was High School Musical. So I was close. 'Cause I said, what was the other guess? I guessed one thing. And then I said, oh, I said, Degrassi and High School Musical. I was like, I don't know, it's a high school that I know you like. Um, so I was close.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: To be fair.
Em Schulz: Um, also, uh, and then I have other friends, one particularly named Ellen, who's like a Disney adult. And I just, I FaceTimed myself next to a vague locker. Like a ran... It looked like I was picking up like my cousin from high school. Like, it, there was no detail in it at all. [laughter] No hint that I was even outside of Los Angeles. And she literally went, are you at the, are you at East High? And I was like.
Christine Schiefer: No way. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, how did you know that? I, I was like prepared to like talk to her normally and then turn my phone around. But she already knew by like the corner of the the ceiling's.
Christine Schiefer: She's like I know where you are. I sense it in my bones.
Em Schulz: She was my like, it's almost as if I've been there a million times. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I had a great time there. Fun fact about East High, is that obviously their um, their mascot is in the movie is the Wildcats. In real life, the mascot stayed the same, like the mascot and everything. They used everything from the school, but they changed...
Christine Schiefer: But the logo's the same?
Em Schulz: Logo's the same, but they changed...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: It to Wildcat from Leopards. And so it's actually the East High Leopards and even funner fact is apparently East High's rival... No, go figure is West High. But West High's mascot is the Wildcats.
Christine Schiefer: Nooo.
Em Schulz: So it's like...
Christine Schiefer: What are these, what will they think of next?
Em Schulz: Uh, the only reason I know this is because, um, at our venue in Salt Lake, uh, we, by the way, the entire crew there felt queer also. But that's just my, like, my feelings about it. I don't know how true it was, but everyone felt a little like, like the vibe was right. And someone that we worked with literally went to East High and he was like, I'll answer whatever you want. Like, it just, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Wait really? I missed all that. Where was that?
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so you were downstairs eating food. I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, perfect. Oh wait, no, I was Ubering back to the hotel 'cause I forgot our most important piece of luggage there. So yeah, sorry. I was busy.
Em Schulz: I feel like everyone that's ever gone to East High has like some like, like sad glint in their eye where they're just like, it's like a, a war flashback. And they're like, now that I've announced it, I'm prepared for all of your stupid fucking questions.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, fine, bring it on. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And he was like, I'll tell you anything. And I went, good. I have so much to say.
Christine Schiefer: Did he sound to say sound like Eeyore? I'll tell you anything.
Em Schulz: I think his soul felt like Eeyore. But he really did put on the glam for me, which I appreciated. [laughter] Um, and I wanted to get a picture. The only picture I did not get at High School Musical was on the stage. But fun fact, anyone who was a High School Musical fan, the theater scenes actually were filmed at a different high school. So it doesn't really count anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: And I wanted to, but guess what stopped me. Teenagers were actually practicing a High School Musical so I could not, so anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. This is...
Em Schulz: I... A very good reason.
Christine Schiefer: This is very, I love hearing about it. 'cause I'm like, I, I like watched High School Musical and stuff, but I was never like the biggest, like I had friends in high school who were obsessed, you know? And I was never really...
Em Schulz: I was.
Christine Schiefer: That obsessed. Yeah. Well we, I know that. Thank, thank you though for clarifying. Um, but yeah, I just, I was like, that's so cool. I had no idea it was in Salt Lake. So, you know, I'm, uh, um. I, I didn't recognize it.
Em Schulz: Fun fact, I'll post... We can post pictures of me. I obviously got pictures everywhere at the Sharpay lockers.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously.
Em Schulz: And everything.
Christine Schiefer: The Sharpay. Yeah. Which is still pink, right?
Em Schulz: They're still pink...
Christine Schiefer: Which cracks me up.
Em Schulz: And it's her and her brother, which is so interesting because her, theirs are pink. In the movie I think like the other main characters have like red lockers and they weren't still red. It was just, it was just the Sharpay pink ones that are still pink.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Sharpay. Maybe that was part of her contractual obligation. She was like, I, you need to keep this my pantone shade of pink.
Em Schulz: 1000%. Anyway, I had a great goddamn time. I went to a lot of gay stores. Um, I went to...
Christine Schiefer: Love that.
Em Schulz: I mean, truly, I tried everything. I did the whole, um, in Salt Lake, a lot of, because a lot of people don't drink, 'cause a lot of people are Mormon, they have like restaurants that are just soda restaurants. It's essentially bars that are only mocktails.
Christine Schiefer: Can you name them again?
Em Schulz: Which I don't know why that... Yes. Obvi. Oh, do you want to guess? Because Christine really loved the names.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Em told me one time. And I, they're all like these kind of onomatpoeia-poeia type. So there's like Fizz, and like, uh, fuck. I already forget. Fizz is the one I always hyperfocus on. Um...
Em Schulz: There's fizz and then, uh, there's the big one is Swig.
Christine Schiefer: Swig. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Then there's, there's also Thirst.
Christine Schiefer: Thirst.
Em Schulz: And then my favorite is a pun because it's Sodalicious as in so delicious.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I didn't get that the first time. That's cute. Yeah that's cute.
Em Schulz: Um, I guess Swig and Sodalicious are the two big ones. And then Thirsty and Fizz are...
Christine Schiefer: And then I, I announced loudly at the bar. At the bar we were at. I'll name the next one. And Em said, no, there is no other one. And I said, no, I'm gonna name the next one. And Eva said...
Em Schulz: But, but you named it great. You named it great.
Christine Schiefer: And Eva said, let her name it Em and I don't even know what I said.
Em Schulz: You said fff something with a pH.
Christine Schiefer: Phosphate. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Phosphate. Now that's a good one.
Christine Schiefer: I said something, but we, but we remove all the vowels.
Em Schulz: Right? You're right. Phspht. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's very Silicon Valley, you know.
Em Schulz: Anyway, it was a dream. I like, I, go figure, me going to Mormon country would mean I'd have opportunities as someone who doesn't drink to go all to all these places and try things.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and also I realized this later, but it's dry January or it was when we were there. So like e-everybody in the world is...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Not everybody, but a lot of people are not drinking anyway. So I bet they were like leaning into it.
Em Schulz: Well, it was, um... [chuckle] It was so weird.
Christine Schiefer: And by the way just to be clear, I was not part of that [laughter] that, that group.
Em Schulz: Nobody that came to our show was, I don't think.
Christine Schiefer: No. I'm not a dry January-er.
Em Schulz: But so they have all these like, it's essentially like a Starbucks where you just go through a drive through and the only thing to drink, the only thing to order are sodas. Although some of them had like a weird quirky snack that they were known for.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, so did you Uber through or how'd you do it?
Em Schulz: I met a man named Michael.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And he was my Lyft driver. I essentially paid him for the whole night. And I was like, I need to go to one of each and I need you to just.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. [laughter] You're my chauffeur for the day.
Em Schulz: I need you to go to one of each. I said, I'll pay you good... Well let's just do this over Venmo because Lyft is not gonna give you what you deserve here. Um, because I need to...
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious? How do you have the confidence to pull that kind of shit off? I just could never.
Em Schulz: I, because I got in a car and I actually got in a few cars before Michael and I was gauging their personalities and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so you had to wait to the right one?
Em Schulz: I had to find the right one. And then Michael, who was a homeboy, the second I got in the car, he was ready for some social interaction. 'Cause he turned around and stuck his hand out and went hi, I'm Michael. And I went...
CS: Whoa!
ES: I went, if that's the energy you're gonna bring, here's the energy I'm gonna bring.
Christine Schiefer: Michael I'm gonna proposition you, but not in the way you think.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Let's go. Let's go to...
Em Schulz: So I wanted to try as many as possible. I wanted to try as many as possible. I went to all four of them and I, I just got kids sizes of things and I got like their top like five drinks at each of 'em. So I had like fucking 20 drinks in this poor man's car.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Jesus Christ, you're worse than me.
Em Schulz: But here's the thing, because Michael was, he understood the assignment and on top of that he was like, let me tell you the best ones. And then he helped me finish them because he was like, there's 20 fucking drinks here, even though they're kids size. Like, let's, let's just go to town together. And I essentially had like a bar buddy for the night. It was great.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. So you paid him in, did you drink them all in the car or did you get out?
Em Schulz: No, we had to drink them in the car on the way to the other place. So we wouldn't, they wouldn't stack top of each other.
Christine Schiefer: Sure you had to hit them all.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Man I'm so fascinated. I just, I'm like, I'm always so impressed when people like you are, are bold enough to like make a plan like that. Because I just could never, I, like, I would never have the guts.
Em Schulz: I wanted it. I so badly wanted it to be a sit down restaurant, so I wouldn't bother somebody. But I also on principle, had to go these places and I didn't have a car, so I was like, I need to just find the right Lyft driver.
Christine Schiefer: There's no other option.
Em Schulz: And uh, I'll, I'll end on this part is that it's very common in Salt Lake apparently for people to like, at these soda places it's... The menu is listed at, in the categories are different types of soda. So like, I went to one and it just said like, Dr. Pepper drinks, Mountain Dew drinks, Sprite drinks. And then they're all listed with like a fun name with like different syrups and pumps and stuff that you can get mixed into them. And, uh, I took a picture of each so I could recreate them all back at home in the Schultz-Forth manner. So now I've got a full...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah so smart.
Em Schulz: A full mocktail bar here. And, um, I basically uh, they, their thing there though, 'cause even though they'll put syrups and stuff in it, their thing is to put cream of, uh, to put heavy cream? Yeah. Or half and half.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like an Italian soda if anyone's familiar. Where you put cream into it ugh...
Em Schulz: It was not good. I, and usually...
Christine Schiefer: I, yeah, I, yeah, you even said that's a thing in Denver too, that in the mountains they like these Italian sodas. I cannot get my head around it.
Em Schulz: It was not that good. I, it was better than I thought it would be, but it was still not yummy. Um. And then...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It kinda grosses me out.
Em Schulz: And the main drink, I guess out there is called the dirty Dr. Pepper, which is Dr. Pepper with either like coconut or vanilla syrup mixed into it, sometimes with the heavy cream.
Christine Schiefer: This I like.
Em Schulz: It was I, in theory that sounded good, but all the syrups in soda just made them all taste like flat diluted soda, 'cause you were just diluting it with syrup.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, there's not as much carbonation. Yeah. That's fair.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Um, would you, I-I-I am just gonna quickly say I drink because I just love how bold you are and I'm just proud of you. I, I like having friends who are like bolder than me 'cause then I'm like, you know what, Em if Em can do it, then I can ask my Uber driver. I can proposition my Uber driver. Um, and so I just wanna say thank you for that, um, confidence you instill in me and that's why I drink this week. But also a quick question. Have you ever considered perhaps opening your own mocktail type of a bar? 'Cause I feel like you would be the king of, like, you would, I mean, there's no doubt in any of our minds that you'd be like the premier person...
Em Schulz: That'd be cool.
Christine Schiefer: To create. Right? And I feel like you, like, as far as everything like, like you're very particular about the flavors, the, like, you know, what you're doing about like in the mocktail sphere, but then also the, the, the core, the aesthetic. Like, you'd be all over that. You'd be all over the events. You'd be all over the punny names. Like, I don't know, I I just wonder... You'd be all over like customer experience. And I just wonder if that's something you've ever considered. Because I would guarantee you'd have quite a, uh, quite a quite a listenership that would, that would show up in rally for you if you did that.
Em Schulz: I, so in a dream world, I could run my own mocktail bar. But...
Christine Schiefer: This is a dream world. The world isn't real. Nothing is real.
Em Schulz: But, you know what is real, assholes, and there's a lot of people who are like, I've noticed at a lot, like LA just opened its very first like so fully mocktail bar and their, their whole thing is like, it's just like all those fucking uppity people who are like, I guess had a really great opinion about alcohol at one point and have changed their ways. Or they have like that filmmaker snootiness kind of to them. And they're like, well, this isn't, like, I just, I don't wanna deal with people like that in my bar.
CS: Oh okay.
ES: I would just wanna be like, no fucking assholes. Like if you wanna mix. There was one drink that I got at, there was one drink I got at one of the places that was like Mountain Dew. It was like strawberry puree and like pineapple juice or something. And it tasted amazing.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds delicious.
Em Schulz: And like, if you aren't lowbrow enough, like I would wanna... I would want to do a mocktail dive bar. I would love to run one of those.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's more what I pictured, like a speakeasy type.
Em Schulz: I would like to do that because, um...
Christine Schiefer: Like an underground, like, oh, well you just have to know about it to go.
Em Schulz: 'Cause all the other ones are just too blehk and also a lot of mocktail places, which if for some reason you're a bartender and you ever run into me and you wanna make me a drink, I am only saying that, not because I think that that's what I deserve, but it has happened quite a few times. And I just wanna put a PSA out there that if you were the next person to do this for me, um, I-I feel like everyone tries so hard to really amp up the mocktail because they feel like you've already lost the alcohol experience that they really owe it to you to like zhuzh up this mocktail.
Christine Schiefer: They wanna make it as similar as possible to a real cocktail.
Em Schulz: Yes. But like, I don't give a shit about alcohol. So to make it as similar is doing nothing for me. And like, I... So I hate the idea of like, they're like, oh, well we use this, there's like all these brands now that are like alcohol replacements and it's like, it's our version of like mocktail gin. And I'm like, never on earth did I want real gin.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So please don't put fake gin in the, like, give me a fucking Sprite with an orange juice. Like some like some normal fucking just drinks.
Christine Schiefer: Like I want create a phosphate bar from the olden days that where like...
ES: Yes.
CS: Didn't your, like didn't your, didn't your grandparents have like an ice cream bar or something? Like why don't you just re like clearly it's in your blood, you know, why don't you re...
Em Schulz: I would love to actually, it was called the... Well, um, I know I'm monopolizing the the time here today. I'm sorry, I'm just in a real chatty mood.
Christine Schiefer: No, now I'm asking all the questions. No, no. Tell me.
Em Schulz: I like that. I feel very loved. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good.
Em Schulz: I, uh, but you ask me a question and then I really, I take it way too far.
Christine Schiefer: No go. I know what I'm doing when I ask you a question, you know that right? Like, I've known you long enough.
Em Schulz: I know. I know. Um, no, my, my gamy who has passed and my grandpa, we called him Grandpa Schultz, who has passed. They both met when they were kids because their parents ran businesses across the street from each other.
CS: Aww.
ES: And so my gamy, her parents, and if you happen to know anybody, by the way, ask your grandparents. 'Cause I'm trying to find in-information on this thing. Um, I know the location and nothing else about it. And no newspaper on earth seems to have ever talked about it.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Um, my gamy, her parents ran what was called, um, McDonald's luncheonette. And it, I guess locals called it Mac's Place.
CS: Aww.
ES: And it was a luncheonette with a candy... It was a candy shop, an ice cream store. It did like deli sandwiches. Um, and across the street was the Schultz pharmacy. And...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: My grandpa. He used to, I guess help his dad at his pharmacy. And my gamy used to help her parents at the luncheonette. And so every now and then, my grandpa and Gamy would go to each other's stores because they would be picking up sandwiches for their parents. Or one of them needed medicine for their parents.
Christine Schiefer: One of them was getting cocaine and heroin for their parents.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Well, u-under the dust of the cocaine they ended up falling in love. And that's, that's how I came to be. So, um.
Christine Schiefer: Under the dust of the, okay, that makes a lot of sense, first of all, but second of all, wow. So wait, where was this? So that people who are good at like, like all the sleuthing.
Em Schulz: This is in Baldwin, New York. Um. And after that they ended up moving to...
Christine Schiefer: Why was it called McDonald's luncheonette?
Em Schulz: Because my gamy's maiden name was McDonald.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. And it's M-A-C, if it's called Mac's.
Em Schulz: I, I think it was, I have one picture that exists of them in front of the place, but I think it was Mc. I think.
Christine Schiefer: Mc. Oh, okay. I I'm just curious for those, for those who might do a little digging, which it may or may not be me later.
Em Schulz: I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, uh, yeah, it was in like the, the '50s and '60s and it was called McDonald's spelled in some way luncheonette. And it was known to the locals as Mac's Place. And it was across the street in Baldwin, New York from the Schultz pharmacy. So.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Uh. Anyway, uh, I don't even know what you asked.
Christine Schiefer: I just love that. I asked if you would ever consider reopening something like that, 'cause I think you would really like knock it outta the park.
Em Schulz: I would love to run a, like a diner or a luncheonette. My mom and I actually always, yeah, I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I think you'd be really good.
Em Schulz: My mom and I always had a dream about opening like an old school ice cream parlor together. I thought that was cool too.
Christine Schiefer: That's it. Yeah. And I think you could sell the sodas on the side as like a, you know, your own recipes or whatever. I, I really think you would hit it, hit it big with that. I do.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I appreciate that. I, uh, in a world where I'm not terrified of risk that it is happening.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boo hoo, that's, listen, I'm listening to a book about confidence and we're made to feel like we can't do anything. But guess what? Men run around and they're like, oh, well I just assume I can do everything. So, you know what?
Em Schulz: Oh, well now that you said that.
Christine Schiefer: Assume you can do it. Just assume you can do it and it'll be fine.
Em Schulz: Okay [laughter] thank you for the confidence boost. That's why I drank this week, because you made me feel very loved with all your questions. Um, I did not mean to monopolize the, the situation, but I, I did enjoy talking about myself. I'm not gonna lie.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good. No, I would rather, I would rather just hear interesting stories. Um, I wanted to hear about your grandparents, uh, sodi pop shop. So.
Em Schulz: I, I'll ask one question that matches mine real quick. Do you know how any of your parents, your grandparents met? Is there like any meet cutes.
Christine Schiefer: Um. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Or no.
Christine Schiefer: What to say?
Em Schulz: You can just say no, [laughter] you're making it sound like it's like prison or something?
Christine Schiefer: How to frame, how to frame this. Um, well, if you recall the decade and, uh, state of the world during the time when my grandparents would've met.
Em Schulz: Oh, you were Germans. I forgot.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You forgot. Wow. Good for you. I...
Em Schulz: For a moment just to get by.
Christine Schiefer: I can't. Um, but yeah, so, so, you know, well, you know what, I did find one piece of information that my grandmother Maria, who I'm always trying to like reach out to and like, connect with 'cause I'm like named after her. And she, she was very like, mystical before, you know, becoming not that way. Um, very Catholic. But she apparently was, uh, she had, she was in the front of the, the Catholic rally against, uh, the Nazi occupation of Austria as far as I can tell from some old sources. But beyond that, I think they all kind of just had to step in line and, uh, follow the, follow the way that things, uh, had to be. So let's just leave it at that and say, I'm forging a new path in my life. [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow you could've just said like, they met over coffee. Like. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't wanna lie. I mean, you know, I don't, I don't really know. And to be honest with you, it is kind of a sore spot for me because I don't know, and my parents, for understandable reasons, do not discuss their their past.
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Not at all. We just don't do it. You're not really supposed to, you know? Or I think one day... Maybe it's too difficult, you know, right now, but I think one day I'll probably do a better, more, um, more in depth dive into all of that. But, uh, with my parents having their boundaries set, I don't ever wanna, you know, overstep, uh, with their own parents.
Em Schulz: That's like the only time I've, I think I've ever heard one of my friend's parents have boundaries about information where I'm like, maybe it is for the best, [laughter] maybe I shouldn't pry...
Christine Schiefer: No literally, like, my parents will not tell me. I didn't know until a few weeks ago that my grandmother had a sister or that my grandfather had a sister. I didn't know. Um, I barely knew their, I don't know my grandma's middle name. Like, I don't know anything about them really. So.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Nothing. I'm like...
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: And it's, it's very difficult for me, but um.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say that has to actually be a bit of an identity crisis. 'cause you're like, how do I?
Christine Schiefer: It does. It really does.
ES: Ooofa
CS: It hurts a bit, um but yeah. And then when I do find stuff out, it's like. Do I really wanna know? Like, is it just gonna make me feel even worse? Probably, so. And my brother's very comfortable, I think just being kinda like um... You know, like, leave it in the past and not think about it or not not think think about it, but like, you know, just understand it for what it is and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just very, like, I think I'm just hurt over it and he's not, so I stand alone in that way. Umm, I think one day, you know, maybe when my parents are much older, they'll be like, okay, we can talk about it now. But.
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, I have a, I have one grandpa who I've, I've mentioned before on here, umm, very briefly, but there's, at, at some point, I don't know what happens in my family because there's a generation where everyone beneath them was like, we do not talk about them. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm, yeah.
Em Schulz: You do not wanna know what they were doing.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: You do not wanna know what was happening. And just know that we come from very bad people and I'm like, holy shit, but.
Christine Schiefer: And now I'm like...
Em Schulz: Of course I can't.
Christine Schiefer: I must know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. I, that's how I feel. I'm like, I'm desperate to figure out what happened, like what, who do I come from? And so...
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of how I feel. And my brother's like, why do you wanna know? I'm like, I don't know, because no one will tell me, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I just have to trust my ancestors who did, who were trying to protect me before I was even born.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so.
Em Schulz: They're like, maybe I really don't wanna know. But I'm like, no, I do. I, a part of me has to know, but maybe I would regret it. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I know it's, it's a tough line to walk and, umm, yeah, I feel for anybody who, uh, has a disconnect from their...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Their ancestors as well. I mean, remember when you showed me pictures of your, your ancestors and I was like so blown away. Like, I was like, I've never really seen a picture of my grandparents.
Em Schulz: Yeah just.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so crazy to me. I'm like, how? Like, it's just so, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I was like living vicariously. [laughter] I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen.
Em Schulz: Well, thank you. That means a lot because I, umm, so that's... For people listening, that's on the other side of my family, where, as far as I know, but there's not too many...
Christine Schiefer: It's a little, yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't come from bad people over there. [laughter] The bad blood is on the other side.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but one of my big Christmas presents to my mom this year was I went through every picture she's ever taken since she was...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Fucking born in the '60s, and I digitized everything and organized them into Google drives and did QR codes and put the actual pictures into binders. And so that way she, like, everything's connected. Uh, she, even if the house burned down tomorrow, she still has those binders digitally.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then I also went through, like, I digitized all of our home videos. So there, it was a very, very long, like, almost year long project I was doing behind the scenes. And I found all these pictures, which to this day, I'm so grossed out with my mother because she was just throwing every loose picture she ever took into like this, like big ass Tupperware and didn't care about like the quality. Like if the pictures were being damaged, [laughter] and like.
Christine Schiefer: Just like shut...
Em Schulz: I found pictures from fucking.
Christine Schiefer: Shut it up and put it fucking away. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I found pictures from 1885. I'm like, girl...
CS: Oh!!
ES: Like you can't just thro-throw this into essentially the, a trash bin under your bed.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I understand that this is different, but to be fair, you said if somebody mailed you old photos like that, you would put them in the dumpster. So, umm...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: But it was our, like our, our family. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right. So they're more, they matter. Right. True.
Em Schulz: And so, umm, but the, the pictures that I found, I mean, some of them are fascinating. There's a whole binder of photos I didn't even know existed that are of grandparents before my grandparents. And like, luckily my grandma's still alive and has told me stories about them. And I, she always told me about like one of my great great grandmas who we would've gotten along so well. And then I found pictures of her. And then like...
Christine Schiefer: I know I was enamored by her too.
Em Schulz: It, I've, it's, uh it's very moving. And actually as I'm talking about it, I think I like opened something up while I was messing with those pictures because ever since, like, just talking about it right now.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I can feel someone in the room with us.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I never had a connection to them. And so now I'm wondering were they always looking out for me? And now I've opened a door in a way where like, now I can feel them watching me or were they never watching me and both of us grew...
Christine Schiefer: You were like, hey.
Em Schulz: Connected together. Yeah. Did we both like kind of fall in love with each other through this project. But I feel really connected to somebody and I don't know if it was, if it's that grandma or there's an aunt that I think I might be sensing.
Christine Schiefer: I remember the aunt.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She, by the way, there's, there's rumors that she was the first queer of our family, so I like to think that she's really look, really looking down too. But, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Love that for her and you.
Em Schulz: Last thing I'll say, we are literally already half an hour in, I'm so sorry everybody...
Christine Schiefer: No it's okay they'll live.
Em Schulz: But I'll end on a ghost story.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I'll, I'll end on a ghost story, which I have, I've already told you. Right.
Christine Schiefer: I love it though...
Em Schulz: About my aunt.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask you to. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, my, I was home and I was messing with all these pictures and I'd been feeling something kind of stirring around and someone watching out for me, but it's a feeling I've never really known before. And so I was talking to one of my friends who's a medium, and I was like, I just feel like someone's around and I know it's from these pictures and I don't, I've never felt them before. I don't know who they are. And she said like, honestly, like just ask out loud to talk to them. Like it's that simple and just make it specific. Like make it be a sign that like, it's so obvious that you would not be able to like, make a coincidence out of this.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And so I asked out loud, even in front of my medium friend, I was like, whoever's here, like I can feel you. I know you're around. I don't know like what's going on, but I, I just need a sign that you are one of my family members because I don't know if by messing with this stuff, I've opened up a door to everyone...
CS: Oh geez.
ES: Or like if this is a family member. So if you can just send me like, you know, as I like to think of myself and the family as like the one who knows the most about all of our ancestry and like, and all of our tchotchkes and any backstory. I know that we don't have a lot of heirlooms. A spoiler alert, we fled, uh, for, we escaped the Holocaust, so we don't have a lot going on. Umm, and we don't have a lot of like, things that have been passed down through the family. I've never really seen a lot of heirlooms and I was like, I know with confidence that we don't have anything really left after my great grandmama.
Em Schulz: If you can bring me an heirloom from our family, which I know doesn't exist, if you can bring up me an heirloom that way I'll know that it's...
Christine Schiefer: Like a new one that you haven't seen. Right. Yeah.
Em Schulz: A new one I've never seen before. Like you and I said like, and not only that, but like drop it on my head, like plop it in my hands. Like do it like...
Christine Schiefer: Make it so obvious.
Em Schulz: Like have someone hand it to me, then I'll know that like it's family that I'm sensing. Within 24 hours my mom was like going.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I love this story.
Em Schulz: My mom was going through her closet and she was like, oh, come over and like, you know, help me go through these earrings. And I ended up lifting up like her earring tray. And we didn't know it was hollow. I didn't know it was hollow at least. And in there was just like these tiny little figurines.
Christine Schiefer: Ahh!
Em Schulz: And I was like, mom, what the hell are these? And she went, oh my God, I've been looking for those. And she grabbed them and plopped them in my hand. And she went, this is the closest thing to a family heirloom we have.
CS: Ah!
ES: And I was like. What?! [laughter] And they were these little statues, these little monkey statues of hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And she was like, when I was a kid, they were really old. So I'm thinking they were like, she remembers that, that queer aunt I was telling you about.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, she said that they used to be hers, but she remembers them being old. So they might have even been handed down to her, which was a great, great aunt.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's, I think it's the queer aunt running around.
Em Schulz: I, I think it's her. And if it's not her.
Christine Schiefer: It's my guess.
Em Schulz: Then it's her mom. It's one of the two. But, umm.
Christine Schiefer: It's just, I found that so stunning because I also listened to a book, umm, by Lauralyn, uh, Jackson. And 'cause I have felt such a weird, like, lonely disconnect from my like...
ES: Mmmmy
CS: Uh, people who've passed my, my, you know, grandparents and stuff. Uh, and she says like, basically you just have to ask for something really specific and like, it'll happen. She's like, [laughter] ask for, ask for like a giraffe riding a tricycle or whatever. And then like, you'll see, I don't know, a cartoon. And it happens all the time. Umm, and so I had asked for, uh, that stuffed alligator, remember? And then we.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Read that next morning. We read, uh, an episode, or I'm sorry, we did our listeners episode. And in one of the things was like a ghost story about how a stuffed alligator appeared in her living room. And I was like, oh, that's so weird. [laughter] So, yeah.
Em Schulz: Amazing.
Christine Schiefer: It's kind of cool. It's so if you are out there and you're just thinking like, I wonder, you know? Don't, don't be afraid to ask, worse that happens you feel a little silly. But, umm, so.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: The world is a weird place, so.
Em Schulz: And that's why we drink.
Christine Schiefer: Amen. Tell me a story!
Em Schulz: Speaking of weird stories, Christine. I've been waiting to cover this for so long.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And you have to know it. You have to already know what's coming or like.
Christine Schiefer: I don't.
Em Schulz: Not, maybe not yet, but when I say the title, there's no way you don't know what the story is.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But get ready to banter, because this is just beyond bananagrams.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Noodles all the way at the top. This is the Kentucky Meat Shower.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Holy shit. I have heard about this. Boy o boy.
Em Schulz: AKA the Kentucky Meat Storm. AKA Carnal Rain. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ew. That's the new album that Zak Bagans is releasing next week. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, did you know about it before you moved to Kentucky?
Christine Schiefer: I had heard about it, but only 'cause I lived in Cincinnati, which is like.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, oh.
Christine Schiefer: 10 minutes from Kentucky. [laughter] So I was basically always in, uh, you know, in Kentucky almost.
Em Schulz: This is, umm, one of my favorite stories. I've always wanted to cover it. It's just a mystery for the ages.
Christine Schiefer: How did you hear about it? Like originally?
Em Schulz: Oh. I couldn't even tell you. Years ago.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, I feel like a lot of podcasts cover this.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I think. I'm like, I'm sure.
Em Schulz: It's just 'cause like it's so weird.
Christine Schiefer: I know they covered it on Lore and some other shows, so. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, I think back when Mysterious Universe was not problematic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I think I read an article there.
S3: Oh yeah, they definitely talked about it.
Em Schulz: Remember Mysterious Universe? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, I think I co... I think I must must have read it there for the first time. 'Cause that was where I got a lot of my like, weird articles to start off of.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Well, that was a great source. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was a great source. I really wish that it was, it could still be a great source. Umm, so, okay, the Kentucky Meat Shower, which by the way, I just wanna start off with a quote from myself because I kept saying it as I was doing these notes. Uh, this is how you'll know I made it to heaven when it's raining meat. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hah! Gross.
Em Schulz: That's how you'll know. So if you're looking for like an heirloom plopped into your hand sign...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, a steak.
Em Schulz: That I made it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: When filet mignon just rains down on people, that's how you'll know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Christ. So when the next Kentucky meat shower occurs, it means Em has gained their wings in heaven. [laughter] When a filet mignon falls from...
Em Schulz: Or I've gained my horns. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The sky and Emothy has gained their wi-horns. [laughter] Yeah, that's exactly right.
Em Schulz: So immediately it's weird because to me this happens in 1876. I feel like if it happened in 2024, we could say like, oh, like a, like a butcher plane crashed. I don't know something.
Christine Schiefer: A Mac's, a MacDonald's, uh, luncheonette [laughter] blew the top off, off the roof. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, this happened in on March 3rd. Uh, it is in 1876. And there is a woman named Mrs. Crouch.
CS: Mmm.
ES: Already feels like a fake story. I feel like Mrs. Crouch is like.
Christine Schiefer: Sure does.
Em Schulz: Just feels like the name of a, a vague, a story.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like something out of a Roald Dahl book.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. And Mrs. Crouch, she lives on a farm with her husband Alan. They live in Olympia Springs, Kentucky, which is exactly a two hour drive from Christine's house. Not to triangulate you.
Christine Schiefer: Yayy.
Em Schulz: Umm, if you drive in one direction for two hours exactly, you will get to Christine's house.
Christine Schiefer: We'll find it eventually. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, Mrs. Crouch was outside one day, she is making soap in the yard, which that's the most 1876 farm thing I've ever heard in my life.
Christine Schiefer: Most Kentucky thing I've ever heard. Yep.
Em Schulz: Uh, and she noticed that the winds nearby were suggesting rain. However, the weather made it seem like the sky was pretty clear. But she kept hearing the sounds of, of a storm brewing.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, oh.
Em Schulz: Around noon all of a sudden she sees, or hears, depending on the story, something falling near the house. And she looks around and she realizes that it is raining raw meat.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Like, I know the story, but I just still can't understand.
Em Schulz: I... And in 1876, what a lot of weird things haven't happened yet, you know, so...
Christine Schiefer: Right? Yeah. Like, we haven't figured out a lot of weird shit, but like, this one still is so fucking weird.
Em Schulz: Uh, the meat shower lasted several minutes, and like that gives you enough time to like wonder if you're hallucinating or not. And then you just stare and you just wait. And you're like, is...
Christine Schiefer: Several minutes.
Em Schulz: And you just look around and you're like, is this my forever now? Or does it end?
Christine Schiefer: And now your soap smells like meat. Gross.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Yeah. That was like a special edition soap that was like, do you wanna smell like you wanna be covered in raw blood, you tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Do you wanna smell like Em, do you wanna, do you want Em to fall in love with you? This is my magic potion.
Em Schulz: I promise I smell better than that, but my, but my tummy does smell like steak, for sure. [laughter] Umm, so this meat shower lasted several minutes, covered their farm, or at least a 100 yards by 50 yards of their farm.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. Okay.
Em Schulz: Reportedly enough meat rained down to quote, "fill up a wagon". Now could that be one of those little red wagons that kids have? Or is this like a fucking stage coach wagon? I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. But I imagine it was the wagon they used on the farm, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, which was not a little kid wagon.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: This was a big boy wagon.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Most pieces were two inches by two inches, so little squares.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Not really little squares. I mean like, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Big chunks. Pretty big chunks.
Em Schulz: And the largest piece that she saw was the length of her hand.
Christine Schiefer: Uuh.
Em Schulz: That's a full ass, that's a fucking sirloin. That's a New York strip right there.
Christine Schiefer: That's that's an expensive, expensive cut. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's at least a $30, $40 piece of meat.
Christine Schiefer: And this is before cows had all these hormones. So I don't know like how these chunks.
Em Schulz: Might've been actually better to eat. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It might've been. It probably was. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so uh it was, the length of her hand was the biggest piece. And apparently the meat appeared very fresh, but it also looked very grisly.
Christine Schiefer: Ewww.
Em Schulz: Uh, the first thought is that it must have been beef or venison, and she reported that it fell like snowflakes when it fell down.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Okay.
Em Schulz: So like, I'm imagining on do your, do your, your Grinch music as I imitate it floating down.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. Oh, uh oh. Ah hoo Dori. Ah hoo hori. Welcome...
Em Schulz: And now there's steak everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Meat shower [laughter] in my hands.
Em Schulz: What if they rewrote the Grinch and the Christmas ham they ate at the end or whatever that was actually did float down that way.
Christine Schiefer: The roast beast.
Em Schulz: The roast beast. [laughter] Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I know way too much about the fucking... I have a problem. I know, I know I do.
Em Schulz: I was thinking green eggs and ham. There's a lot of meat stories that Dr. Seuss was about. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well, there's two, but umm, I think you nailed it. You got them both.
Em Schulz: Compared to other series for children. That's two more than most. So.
Christine Schiefer: What about, umm. What about, uh, C.S. Lewis' the great meat shower of 1873. [laughter]
Em Schulz: For a second. I was like, what that's very on brand. Umm, so it falls like snowflakes. I don't even know physically how that can work, because two by two.
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't it.
Em Schulz: Wouldn't it go splat.
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't it thud like hail or something instead of whatever?
Em Schulz: In my mind, physics would work. Yes. And maybe I've read the notes wrong. Maybe it's not fell like snowflakes. Maybe it felt like snowflakes. But that also doesn't make sense because if you're getting pummeled with...
Christine Schiefer: That also seems unlikely.
Em Schulz: Heavy fake meat... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Gross.
Em Schulz: You're getting, as I said earlier, smashed to smithereens. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's sick. It really is.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay, so get is, is this not the most Linda thing you've ever heard in your entire life? Because.
Christine Schiefer: Tell me.
Em Schulz: Fresh meat is just pouring down, her first thought, very first fucking thought of what this could be. She thought her son had been killed and dismembered on his way home and the wind was blowing him across the farm. [laughter] That's literally, that's my mother if I don't call her back in five minutes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! You wrote something like in the, in the Haunted Road Atlas or something where you said like, uh, meanwhile my mom, uh, like calls the National Guard if I disable find my friends or something. And I feel like that line alone is like so apt. [laughter] I mean, wow. I mean, to be fair as a deeply mentally ill person as well, my, with my, with intrusive thoughts, my brain also would be like, great. There goes my loved ones. They're all hacked up into pieces and falling from the sky. So I'd have the same, uh, same thing, but but in a less, less.
Em Schulz: My mom would at least text a picture of it and be like, is this you? [laughter] Or she'd be like, or she'd be like, this could be you if you don't get back to me in the next hour.
Christine Schiefer: I'd like in mourning already, you know, [laughter], I'd be like in mourning.
Em Schulz: She would send me a link about raining meat and then she'd be surprised when I called back because I'm alive. She'd be amazed. [laughter], she'd be like, oh my God, it wasn't you?
Christine Schiefer: She's like, you texted me. [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. So I can't imagine this, this woman had to be an overprotective helicopter Jewish mom.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I wonder. Yeah, she clearly had some prob some intrusive thoughts as well. I feel you girl.
Em Schulz: You know, the son came home and was like, you thought I was blowing across the farm in chunks.
Christine Schiefer: You thought that...
Em Schulz: What the fuck is wrong with you.
Christine Schiefer: Big prime rib was me. What are you talking about? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, they must have just gotten into like a really aggressive fight or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh maybe.
Em Schulz: And it was the last time she'd seen her son. You know.
Christine Schiefer: The guilt. Yeah.
Em Schulz: The guilt. Umm, anyway, when she realized it was not her son.
Christine Schiefer: Do you think for the rest of their lives she would be like, I wish it was you in that fucking meat shower. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, the son was like, I'm gonna go to the bathroom. Be careful. I might rain from the sky in a second.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. I feel like they're gonna like weaponize that because I was just on TikTok, 'cause you know, I have a TikTok again. Umm, and I saw TikTok that like referenced like a toxic marriage and remember that, umm, what was that movie with Adam Driver? Uh, oh and Scarlet Johansen.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It was really good one.
Em Schulz: I don't know what it's called.
Christine Schiefer: The one about their marriage falling apart basically. Umm, but they like played a clip there where he like whips around, screams like, every morning I wake up and hope you're dead. And I'm like, I can just imagine that line of like, every morning I wake up and hope you fall from the sky in a dead meat shower.
Em Schulz: Just tumbleweed your your bloody carcass across the farm. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's much more creative that way. Just saying.
Em Schulz: Uh. Yeah. You know, like, uh, at board games they like make inside jokes about it and then they have to explain to the family why mom is such a fucking nut case.
Christine Schiefer: When they get apples to apples, like the blank card. They're like, oh boy, here we go. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, I guess she realized, oh, it's not my son. And still, though, thought it was...
Christine Schiefer: That's good.
Em Schulz: And thought it was an omen from God. I mean, that's almost better than the first thought she had.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. And soon neighbors who had also witnessed this from their windows, cause they're like, something is raining out there. And then they're like, is that meat? Is that her son? Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: Is that our neighbor's son? Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So they start getting real curious. You know, if I were in that neighborhood, I would have been leading the gossip pack.
Christine Schiefer: Boots on the ground. Em is out there. Em is taking notes.
Em Schulz: I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: Extensively.
Em Schulz: We are getting to the bottom of this immediately. Umm, so all the neighbors are all of a sudden showing up at the house being like, what the fuck was that? Because remember, it only rained on their farm. Only.
Christine Schiefer: That is so weird. Okay.
Em Schulz: So neighbors saw it from a distance or maybe like a piece hit their house and they're like, this is fucking crazy. But everyone goes to the Crouches to be like, are you good? Like, what was that? And some neighbors...
Christine Schiefer: Like why are you throwing steak at my window?
Em Schulz: Some neighbors reported seeing meat hanging from the fences and the blood of the meat was like staining the fence.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ew.
Em Schulz: They remember seeing the meat stuck in bushes and they saw chunks fall hard enough from the sky to chip wood off the house, which goes against the snowflake theory, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say.
Em Schulz: If the raining snowflakes are chipping the roof. Umm it's big...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But all I can think about when it's like stuck in the bushes is like, this is Gio's dream. Like if this, if this happens, Em, if the next... Whenever the next Kentucky meat shower happens, Em and Gio are both reunited in heaven and having the best day of their lives.
Em Schulz: We're just, we're rolling around doing like snow meat angels. Like. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew. And meanwhile my windows getting fucking shattered. And I'm like, you two I swear to God.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It'll be, uh, if there's two showers, you'll know I got to heaven. And then the second one is when Gio passes, it'll be me letting you know, Oh, he's with me now. We're good.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, don't worry. Things are about to get a lot weirder. Yeah. Thanks.
Em Schulz: So, uh, when a reporter later asked, I love, by the way, I'm also the reporter in this.
Christine Schiefer: I know that.
Em Schulz: And by reporter, I like to think this was actually the lead of the gossip pack who just decided they were the reporter. There's like I'll get...
Christine Schiefer: You can always say you're a reporter. Nobody can really, there's no like official badge, you know.
Em Schulz: Well, just like the first thing this person asked the Crouches was, uh, after it started kind of clearing up, like looking back on the story, was like, what did it smell like out here?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great question.
Em Schulz: Great question. And she said she did not smell it, which like, there's no way, it's a bunch of raw meat in your yard.
Christine Schiefer: I mean maybe not right away. Like I would hope if it was fresh, it wouldn't smell right away, after like a day or two I would imagine it would start to smell right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Well, pretty immediately, just like how you predicted with Gio, pretty immediately the farm animals start eating the shit out of this stuff. How do you not?
Christine Schiefer: I'm so happy for them. I'm so happy for them. At least they got a happy day, you know?
Em Schulz: Uh, the Crouches cat also started eating it, which they, I don't even know. The cat, like I like to think escaped the house the second he saw meat raining from the sky and was like, this is my... I've...
Christine Schiefer: I mean if it's a farm, I imagine the cat did not live inside anyway. So I'm sure he was just like, what the fuck is going on?
Em Schulz: So neighbors, again, they started coming around. Everyone's wondering how this came to be. Uh, many of the witnesses thought it must be beef. Uh, remember they were thinking it's either beef or venison, witnesses are also saying they think it's beef. But a neighbor who was like an avid hunter said it is obviously bear because of its very greasy feeling like bear. Fun fact bears are greasy? I guess? Um.
Christine Schiefer: Cool fun fact.
Em Schulz: And so because, uh, because all people, I don't think we've ever evolved, just like the animals, the neighbors were like, should we try it?
Christine Schiefer: Should we eat it? Somebody has to say it. Somebody has to say it.
Em Schulz: Somebody had to say it. Everyone was thinking it. Someone was thinking, well, it's free meat. Maybe we should try.
Christine Schiefer: One brave soul. Yep.
Em Schulz: And that brave soul's name was Jimmy Welch. And he...
Christine Schiefer: Jimmy.
Em Schulz: Jimmaay
CS: Jimmaayy.
ES: And he agreed to try the meat for a dollar. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. This is me back then. You're the one running around like, and I'm like, will you give me a dollar I'll eat it. And then they're like, no. And I'm like, fine. I'll eat it anyway. I don't need the dollar. I don't care. I'll eat it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So I fell like the dollar... I feel like he just ate it and then people thought he was gross and he like made up the story about the dollar.
Christine Schiefer: He's like no no, it was a dare.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, apparently he could not even swallow it down.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Did he... He ate it raw, which not sure good. Right. That's already bad.
Em Schulz: Sure did. A local butcher which...
Christine Schiefer: Uh eating raw bear, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe raw, greasy bear.
Christine Schiefer: Nasty.
Em Schulz: Which like, even if I liked bear, I couldn't eat that. So...
Christine Schiefer: Like raw yeah, no, no.
Em Schulz: Um. A local butcher, two different sources told me that his name was Mr. Frisbee. Okay. Um. He was apparently the meat expert.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Which makes me think that like this, this is his moment, right? Like, he's like, like I am the butcher in town and it is raining meat.
Christine Schiefer: Step aside.
Em Schulz: It's like, this is his Avengers moment.
Christine Schiefer: Oh hell yeah.
Em Schulz: He's like, I will save the town.
Christine Schiefer: Finally I found a cape.
Em Schulz: My apron, my cape. I'll throw it around my neck. And look like a cape.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Yes. He just turns the apron around and it's just.
Em Schulz: It's the perfect costume. It's like Clark Kent's glasses. It's got to be something quick because you got to go into battle immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. The butcher superhero. That's pretty good Em.
Em Schulz: And Mr. Frisbee, he also tries eating it. He says that it might be umm, deer or venison or mutton.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um. He did say, and this is a quote, this is a quote from a podcast I listened to about this, "that the smell was a new one." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Whoa. Okay. Wait, what's mutton? Is that sheep?
Em Schulz: Mutton is lamb.
Christine Schiefer: Lamb. Oh, okay. Wow.
Em Schulz: I think. Sheep or lamb. And then venison is deer.
Christine Schiefer: The smell is a new one. Oh God.
Em Schulz: Which interesting because Mrs. Crouch said that she didn't smell it. And I'm like, you clearly just didn't want to smell it. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, she was also making soap. Maybe her nose was like diluted. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Broke even. That's a great point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe they canceled each other out.
Em Schulz: When he... Uh, when this butcher, he took some of the meat. He pulls it apart, and when he pulled it apart, a stringy, fibrous material oozed out like milk.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Uhhh.
Em Schulz: So he was like, I don't know what that is, but that ain't meat. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. What does it mean?
Em Schulz: A stringy, fibrous material that oozed out a milky fluid. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: That's fucking nasty.
Em Schulz: It's giving Saltburn. So even if it wasn't meat after a few days, it certainly began to rot like meat. And just like you said earlier, after a few days, that farm started to smell rough.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Super bad. Umm, and I guess the smell alone, if people hadn't already witnessed the shower, if the town wasn't already talking about it, now the smell was enough to get people's attention. Reporters are coming out, scientists are coming to collect samples for testing because they've heard that meat that's not meat...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is raining from the sky. Several papers, including the New York Times, uh, wrote about the findings and possible origins of this meat rain. Uh, one scientist from Scientific American said that the sample was not meat, but it was something called nostoc, which is a type of bacteria that's found in soil and is not actually visible at all until it's wet. So his thought, I guess what this nostoc bacteria does.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: It sits on the ground and if it rains that water or moisture expands it into a gelatinous form with thread like tubes. So it looks like meat because it looks like...
CS: Oh.
ES: There's muscle, muscles in it. And apparently, apparently it's edible for animals. I don't know if it's edible, but animals will eat it. So, hmm...
Christine Schiefer: And then it'll fly across the world and rain onto you?
Em Schulz: Yeah. The thread like tubes turn into wings and then they, it flies away.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was like, explain that part buddy.
Em Schulz: So it's this gelatinous shit that kind of, it's like those like sea monkeys where they, you can't see them until you put water on them.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh, How do you spell that? Nostoc?
Em Schulz: And all of a sudden it grows. N-O-S-T-O-C.
Christine Schiefer: O-C Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: And nicknames for this, for nostoc are witches jelly, which makes sense because of, of the time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I've heard of that. I've heard of witches jelly.
Em Schulz: 'Cause it's jelly that appears outta nowhere because it has to have moisture. Umm, it's also known as star jelly.
Christine Schiefer: Star jelly.
Em Schulz: It's known as fallen star, which is what I call Christine when I see her shoulders.
Christine Schiefer: Ha Ha ha.
Em Schulz: It's also called Spit of the Moon, and it's also called Troll Butter.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Okay. First of all, least favorite troll butter. Total favorite new one to me is moon spit or whatever you said. [laughter] Umm, I love that.
Em Schulz: Moon spit is something I make when I'm working the bar ship when I do my shift out at star tenders. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, moon spit is what you do when that one bitchy customer doesn't tip you. You're like, I'm gonna moon spit [laughter] right into your fucking cocktail. You biatch. Uh, but, [laughter] nostoc the witch. I've heard of Star Jelly, um and I've heard of Witches Jelly.
Em Schulz: Witches Jelly.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But, umm, but I'm, I just Googled it and like, it looks fucking green. It doesn't really look like meat to me.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If anything, it looks like rotten meat, not fresh meat.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Definitely doesn't look like, Ooh. It's really kind of nasty. Like I'll, uh, I'll send a photo to the group to, or at least to you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There's a hydrated nostoc commune from the Ohio State University. And we can post this on Instagram.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'd like to know what picture you're looking at. Because maybe like to them could they have excused it as like meat fat? Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it looks almost like seaweed. Right?
Em Schulz: It looks like seaweed.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, to be honest, like every photo looks like that as at least the ones I can find.
Em Schulz: Interesting. So, I mean, I don't.
Christine Schiefer: Mabye... Maybe.
Em Schulz: They, you know how like carrots didn't used to just be orange. They had like purple and white and everything and like...
Christine Schiefer: True. Cows used to be green.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah. Maybe meat, meat used to be green before it was rotten. Umm, yeah, I don't know. But the, the main theory from Scientific American is that it was nostoc. Umm, maybe it was like they thought it was a different strand of nostoc that was a different color.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe, maybe it changed colors 'cause it was flying through the air. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Because also maybe if it, if it looked like that texture that does look like something that would fall like snowflakes.
Christine Schiefer: Really, it looks like it would splat, but I guess so would meat. So maybe.
Em Schulz: Let me look at the picture again.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: No, that feels like it would at least look like it kind of rained a little bit more than like a thick plummet.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I guess you're right. Not just like one big, like thud. Yeah, that's fair.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Umm, anyway, so nostoc was, they thought that maybe nostoc was on the ground. Rain made it expand, but there was no rain. This was a clear day.
CS: Right.
ES: And the only thing that fell from the sky was meat or this material. Umm, so that takes out the nostoc theory because there was no water to build it out of the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Other scientists said that it's not nostoc, it is actual meat, but we don't know what kind of meat. Um.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Well, okay. I could have said that too. Scientist. Yeah, like.
Em Schulz: I guess I'm a fucking scientist. [laughter] It's a...
Christine Schiefer: Mystery meat. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But so, uh, one person tried to cook it over a bunsen burner and it reportedly smelled like mutton, like rancid, mutton suet. And for those who dunno, suet, it is like a hard raw fat. So they felt like maybe it's like rotten sheep fat, lamb fat.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yuck.
Em Schulz: Umm, in this same experiment or in the same I guess like lab, the same people who are working on the bunsen burner thing, they also put a chemical solution over the meat material so that it would, I guess eat some of it away so they could see closer up on the fibers and the tissues.
CS: Mmm.
ES: And there were in fact fibers and connective tissues. So they decided, okay, so it must be meat. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Many of the cohorts in this lab, after smelling it, say that it was definitely mutton. Which like is this town just riddled with mutton. Like why does everybody know what that smells like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, also, I love that they're all just smelling. They're like, the other scientists also smelled it and said it has to be mutton. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And you know, they smelled it for science. They were like, I just have, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right, right. And they got paid, they were on the clock for sure. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, some scientists agreed that it was meat but not mutton and maybe it was just animal cartilage. And then under a microscope, uh, they said that the meat was had to be either horse lung tissue or human infant lung tissue.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Uh, oh God it just keeps getting worse.
Em Schulz: In the words of Bethany Watson from An Acquired Taste Podcast who covered this, uh, she said apparently. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh did she really?
Em Schulz: She said apparently babies have the lungs of horses. So which... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh I mean they do seem to scream loudly and have a lot of energy I guess I could see how that would equate. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it, it it is wild, it's like it's either horse or baby lung.
Christine Schiefer: Nothing in between. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Nothing else.
Christine Schiefer: Not a pig.
Em Schulz: Umm, so that's what they said after looking at it under a microscope but another doctor, uh, checked out a bunch of samples and said some of them were cartilage but one had a muscular connective tissue so it couldn't have been a lung because it was muscular.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: So that takes away the thought that it's a horse lung or a baby lung. This guy says it's not a lung. And then the meat at this point like a-amongst all of the science that they were doing, it's now like rotten across the board so, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: People couldn't really even determine the animal of the meat if they wanted to, but now they're saying it's definitely not human, it's definitely animal meat. And it seems like everyone's... Because people were just taking chunks of it and bringing it so maybe the samples were different parts of animal parts.
Christine Schiefer: True like maybe one part's a lung, you know, and then.
Em Schulz: One part was a lung someone else was like no it's clearly not a lung.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But that was cause they had a different piece of the meat.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, so that kind of takes away the theory that like it's one type of organ maybe it's like just the original chicken McNugget and it's just like.
Christine Schiefer: Pieces of it. Ew. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Bits of everything.
Christine Schiefer: There's a beak. [chuckle] God.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so this also led to the theory that maybe there was... Regardless of what type of animal it was was, I guess they're assuming sheep or lambs since everyone thinks it smelled like mutton the most.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: But the thought is that some animal must have exploded in the air and his chunks were raining down on the farm. So either the animal was being hunted and the, the boom of the bullet like like pushed them into the sky which I don't know if they made guns that powerful back then.
Christine Schiefer: Oh whoa.
Em Schulz: Or there was some sort of like literal like land mine that a sheep stepped on and flew into the sky after being launched from an explosion. Umm, but this happened in like a small town on a farm there was no fucking explosion and like the...
Christine Schiefer: And wouldn't they have heard it?
Em Schulz: Wouldn't they have heard it and also wasn't like the main hunter there who thought it was bear. So like he would've maybe known if anyone had been shot that hard into the sky. Umm, but one of the theories is that it exploded in the sky and rained down. One New York Times reporter claimed that the meat shower was literally a meatier shower, umm, where this is probably gonna be your favorite theory, because I like that it's called like a meatier, like meteor, meteor.
Christine Schiefer: Meatier. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: That it was a literal meat shower of when Earth passed through a bunch of orbiting chunks of meat, the theory comes from the fact that a meteor coming to earth must have either hit a bunch of birds and the birds all exploded together.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: But we would've seen a fucking meteor let's be clear. We would've seen a meteor like this.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe not.
Em Schulz: If it was close enough to the earth's atmosphere it's hitting a pack of birds.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah but like don't meteors... No but meteors can be really small.
Em Schulz: I guess so but also if a meteor is coming down from outer space and hitting birds so hard they explode, would there even be evidence of a bird anymore? But it's like... [chuckle] I feel like it would just be pulverized.
Christine Schiefer: I will tell you one thing.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: There'd be a beak.
Em Schulz: There'd be a beak and it would make it into my chicken McNugget, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Except probably the bird ate it, or I mean not the bird but probably the dog ate it so.
Em Schulz: Well the reason I say this is probably gonna be your favorite theory is because that theory very quickly slipped into this theory which is that, well, maybe a meteor hit our birds or another planet with life on it exploded and their bodies are raining down on us, so.
Christine Schiefer: I find that a little crazy cause like then it would be so concentrated just to that one area...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like it seems a little bit unlikely for that.
Em Schulz: Well, I've heard about an alien coming and crashing down in a very specific part of the farm before and that is called the birth of Clark Kent/Superman.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure, okay, I thought you were talking about the, the uh whatchamacallit in Kentucky the, the alien. Green...
Em Schulz: Oh, the Hopkinville, Kelly-Hopkinsville.
Christine Schiefer: Kelly-Hopkinsville, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, no that's how Superman got his start he, his, his home planet exploded and he flew down to Smallville, Kansas and he crash landed into a farm, so...
Christine Schiefer: There you go.
Em Schulz: Maybe that's what's happening here. Umm, this was just Clark Kent's like really unlucky brother and the, his passage onto Earth didn't work.
Christine Schiefer: He didn't have quite the same like constitution as his brother. [laughter] So he kind of didn't make it past Earth's atmosphere.
Em Schulz: So they think that there must have been another planet that exploded and this is called the cosmic meat theory because basically it suggests that all the meat that's raining on us is dead exploded alien flesh.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I love it.
Em Schulz: Even if this was a legit theory though, anything falling to earth through the atmosphere that quickly would have been incinerated before it ever touched the ground. So that doesn't work.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, maybe they were in a UFO and the something went wrong and he fell out.
Em Schulz: Maybe. [laughter] Honestly, anything's possible at this point so umm. One prof... One professor thought that this was dried tadpoles that the wind spit out onto the farm, like somehow got lifted up...
Christine Schiefer: Gross.
Em Schulz: In a storm. And just kind of came raining down on people. And that's apparently not a weird theory because fish and frogs have reportedly fallen from the sky several times in storms.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Raining frogs, I've heard of that.
Em Schulz: Umm, In 1947, fish fell from the sky in Louisiana. Fish also rained in Australia in 1974, 2004 and 2010. Uh, tadpoles have rained down in places like Japan, Hungary, the Philippines, and India. Like a common theory is that, umm, a type of tornado called water spouts lifts the fish and frogs outta water.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And drops them back down... Umm, but none of that would explain literal meat or the, something that's not fish and tadpoles.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know what? I have a question, which I feel like might be dumb because you might have already kind of made it clear.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: But, was there any fur on these pieces?
Em Schulz: One source I read said that somebody claimed that they saw wool, which would confirm mutton. But like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Don't you have to make wool or you have to.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: I guess it would.
Christine Schiefer: You just shear a sheep.
Em Schulz: I guess it would technically be right attached on top of it. Right?
Christine Schiefer: It would be just be like, it's...
Em Schulz: Like a patch of fur essentially.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah. There, someone said that they thought they saw wool, which would confirm mutton, but we don't really know if that was them just. Like no one else saw it.
Christine Schiefer: Weird. I would just think like if a cow exploded or something, you'd see so much like hair and like hoof and like other pieces...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Of it, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Bones. What about bones? Hold on.
Em Schulz: What about a face? Shouldn't there be like a face? An eye?
Christine Schiefer: Uuhh.
Em Schulz: A brain? And that also makes me think, by the way, if it was gelatinous matter, could it be raw brain?
Christine Schiefer: I guess. But it wouldn't have, wouldn't it have to be a lot? Because one of them was like the size...
Em Schulz: I guess so.
Christine Schiefer: Of a hand.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, do you know how much of it fell?
Em Schulz: It will be like a whole temporal lobe? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They said a whole wagon full. Right? That's a big old brain. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right? That's, that's, that's, that's a brain as big as mine I'll tell you that. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy. It's hard to find. But there we go. We did it.
Em Schulz: We do exist. We keep it hidden...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, man.
Em Schulz: But we do exist. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah. It, it, it makes, this truly just makes no sense, I mean even none of that, even like the fish and the tadpoles thing, it wouldn't explain a meat shower, especially when the only way that fish and tadpoles would've gotten there is if rain had happened. But there was no rain. It was a clear sky.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Some people like the Crouch's who were good Christians, although I would argue that that mom sounded very Jewish with her complete [laughter] weird ass fear.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, this was, they thought that this must be an omen. A lot of neighbors thought it too. I mean, meat raining down from the sky, even if it's frogs.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah it sounds like a plague. Like one of the 10 plagues.
Em Schulz: Apocalyptic. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So, but then people were like, why would God decide that he's going to rain down meat on one Christian farm for like five minutes? And that's it.
Christine Schiefer: Cause you done fucked up and you know what you did Mrs. Crouch. I don't know.
Em Schulz: That's when like all of a sudden you like rethink your every single step from that day and you're like, what did I do? It must have like, it was clearly a temporary oopsie daisy. 'Cause they only got temporarily punished.
Christine Schiefer: They're like man, I did fall asleep during my evening prayers. Maybe that's why he's so mad.
Em Schulz: You know what I kind of like about this, like that, that one of the plagues that like the raining meat or raining frogs or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Is that it's not really, and I'm talking completely outta my ass. I'm sure there's a whole biblical context to this, but from what I know of like raining frogs or raining meat or whatever it is, it's just not even a plague that's really that bad. It's just wildly inconvenient. It's just God being like, I'm gonna give you something that to think about and it's gonna really suck.
Christine Schiefer: As someone who has studied this as part of my Catholic upbringing I think...
Em Schulz: Tell me.
Christine Schiefer: I could step in here and say it was pretty damn bad. Umm, because...
Em Schulz: Was it more than just raining frogs? What happened?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. So here we go. Umm, this is from the biomedicalscientist.net. This is just like a summation of some of the things that happened. The waters were turned to blood, the fish...
Em Schulz: Oh, my.
Christine Schiefer: In the river died and the Egyptians couldn't drink the foul water. Frogs swarmed forth covering every inch of land and entering houses and bedrooms. All over Egypt bugs crawled forth from the dust to cover the land. And that's just a, a couple of them.
Em Schulz: The, so the blood water is crazy, then the not being able to drink, that's obviously the worst part of it 'cause everything else is just infestations right?
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, because then they killed the firstborn Egyptian sons. Right. Umm, so they all died.
Em Schulz: You're saying right as if I know. No, I don't, I don't know. They killed the firstborn Egyptian sons?
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. Well, it is Old Testament, so I, I don't know. I thought maybe you'd know, uh, hordes of wild animals destroyed everything in their path. Umm, a fatal pestilence killed most of the domestic animals. Uh, the Pharaoh, his servants, all their animals developed painful boils all over their body. Hail struck down all the crops in the fields, shattered every tree. The locusts covered up the land and swallowed up every crop and all the fruits. Thick darkness over the land of Egypt so total that the Egyptians had to feel their way around, couldn't see. And then of course, the final was all firstborn Egyptian sons died. Uh, and the Israelites had to mark lamb's blood above the door to be passed over in the plague.
Em Schulz: Do we know what the time gap was between all of these? Like was it all at once?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, that's so overwhelming.
Christine Schiefer: No, they were, they were kind of like back... I think they were, they were kind of, umm, consecutive, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Hmm. Umm, I do, I do remember hearing...
Christine Schiefer: How long did the 10 plagues take? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. I do remember hearing about the boils. This is someone who's so removed from religion. All I got from that was that God sounds like a real asshole. That's what I...
Christine Schiefer: Well yeah that's Old Testament for you, baby. Um...
Em Schulz: I don't. Okay. That's all...
Christine Schiefer: That's the whole thing. And then the New Testament, Jesus shows up and suddenly God's like, umm, oopsies, I was kind of mean to you all. Sorry about that.
Em Schulz: That's kind of like a, like a, like a guy who's like kind of a dirt bag and he's like, but now I've got a son. I've gotta really get my, like, change my game up, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like a toxic... Yeah. It's definitely very toxic. Umm.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But it says we can feel comfortable. I don't know if, I don't feel comfortable about any of this, but sure. [laughter] Uh, this is by thebiblehistoryguide.com.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: We can feel comfortable with a probable maximum timeframe between February 1st and March 22nd, 1446 BC.
Em Schulz: Well, tomorrow's February 1st. Happy anniversary.
Christine Schiefer: Ah!
Em Schulz: Umm, that sounds awful.
Christine Schiefer: Don't leave the house.
Em Schulz: Like as an understatement, obviously, but like, no comment. No comment. I never... No comment.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, so yeah. So it was bad. It was bad. Umm.
Em Schulz: Okay, got it. So it was not just like a couple of frogs. It wasn't like PetSmart...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Had a, a, like a broken tank. Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They got sucked up into the filter and just like... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, it's a plague. [laughter] It's like, there's four frogs. It's okay.
Em Schulz: That would feel like a plague to me. That alone.
Christine Schiefer: I know we would probably...
Em Schulz: Like God you don't have to do all this like, fucking dramatic shit. Just like.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and think about it. It that happened in 1440. By this time, you and I would've turned it into the biggest like deal. We would've multiplied the number of frogs by like 40,000. [laughter] And like, no, you don't understand. Like, I, like.
Em Schulz: I'd be like I was crawling through mountains of frogs, uphill both ways to get to school.
Christine Schiefer: We, we just couldn't see. Well, this is how we would like, turn a story into something completely ridiculous.
Em Schulz: That's why we're the leaders of the gossip, uh, pack.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. That all sounds like truly, and again, I, I know I just said it, but it really does make me like wonder. I'm like, why was God doing all that? Because all he had to do was half of that and I would've gotten the hint, but whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Well, he had to punish the Egyptians.
Em Schulz: Coming from someone who didn't, this is coming from someone who did not read the Bible.
Christine Schiefer: It's your peoples... Your peoples had to be saved. You know.
Em Schulz: I know it. Still do.
Christine Schiefer: From the Pharaoh. Yeah. I know [laughter] don't remind me.
Em Schulz: Save me. Uh, because they thought this was an omen. They were like, maybe this is God. But they also thought maybe this was gonna be a hoax. Like maybe the Crouches were just like fucking bored on the farm and threw some meat in the air. And.
Christine Schiefer: What wild prank, but, okay.
Em Schulz: How silly. Also but how bored must you be in 1876? There's no TikTok. You know, it's like, well, I guess should go throw some also meat around.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, she seemed like she was busy making, making soap, but, okay.
Em Schulz: Well, it doesn't, wasn't soap made with lard.
Christine Schiefer: Wait a minute. Yes. With, with lye, right?
Em Schulz: Did we just crack the case?
Christine Schiefer: Hold on. How to make soap. Wait, what is lye?
Em Schulz: With fat.
Christine Schiefer: Hold on. Lye is fat, right? No, no, no, Lye's not. Sorry. Uh, what is soap? What is old soap...
Em Schulz: There's some... Soap was not vegan. Soap was not vegan back then.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. No. Yeah, so you're right. The fat rendered from a slaughtered cow, sheep or goat. So she, I knew this soap had something to do with something.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this isn't one of the theories, I'm gonna say, I think we just discovered it.
Christine Schiefer: I think so.
Em Schulz: I think she just had scraps of soap and she was like, I got, I don't wanna do anything. Woo. And she just threw the bucket over her shoulder and then...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think she did it on purpose. I think she was too embarrassed to admit it. I think something weird happened and she was like, I dunno what it is.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] But smell my soap. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I totally do. Something happened, and I think somebody's not telling the truth.
Em Schulz: Speaking of old women, I just wanna say, I was on the plane yesterday, uh, coming home and it was a two hour flight, [laughter], and I feel so bad for the person sitting next to this older woman on the plane. As the plane landed, I heard behind me, an old woman say, anyway, that's the story of my life. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord. Oh my Lord.
Em Schulz: And then you looked over and you saw the guy sitting next to her just looked like he had like, was just [laughter] just fried from having to like, engage for two hours with somebody.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god [laughter], that's my nightmare. Like not being able to, I mean, at least as a nice old lady, I've been in worse like social situations. But oofa doofa... If you just wanna take nap.
Em Schulz: I just feel so bad for him. Anyway, maybe she needed like a Ms. Crouch to sit on the farm and make soap with and just talk forever. But this poor guy was not there for it.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe she needs little love, you know?
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. So it could have been a hoax. There was talk that maybe like Mrs. Crouch wanted to move, but Mr. Crouch didn't. And so maybe she was trying to like, cause problems so that they would leave. But that feels like a really stupid way to do it. Of like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just sprinkling meat all over the floor. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Could do anything else.
Christine Schiefer: My God.
Em Schulz: But even though it could have been a hoax, the, another reason that it wasn't is because the entire town swears that they were like good upstanding people who like, weren't like big pranksters like that. And also only a few reporters came to town, but other than that, it wasn't a huge spectacle. They never made any money off of it. Mrs. Crouch never even gave her first fucking name. So it's not like she was getting something from this.
Christine Schiefer: Like, seeking attention. Right.
Em Schulz: But here's a theory I love. Apparently there's, uh, a thought that maybe the meat comes from two brothers who got into a knife fight, and then they got picked up by a fucking tornado, and then they were thrown across the farm, just like Ms. Crouch thought happened with her own son.
Christine Schiefer: So like, did, were they dead? Did anybody...
Em Schulz: Exactly. I was like are are are there any crime reports of missing brothers who were last seen in the sky fighting with...
Christine Schiefer: How does anyone know about a knife fight if...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They both ended up whatever. Yeah. Okay I... Yeah that's...
Em Schulz: A lot of information's missing there.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. That's wild.
Em Schulz: Here's my other personal favorite. I think this is my top favorite theory.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh not because it's accurate but because it's just so silly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Apparently one big theory out there was that a hot air balloon enthusiast.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Who had his own hot air balloon was just passing through above the farm and accidentally dropped his lunch out of the basket.
Christine Schiefer: His picnic. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And apparently his lunch was a 100 by 50 yards of raw meat. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But you know on a hot air balloon they got that little flame. Talk about a bunsen burner.
Em Schulz: Oh that is genius.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he was doing a little fondue.
Em Schulz: He was making a... He was making a functional decision.
Christine Schiefer: The Korean Barbecue. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Work smarter not harder.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a... It's like a Korean Barbecue in the sky.
Em Schulz: Why, why barbecue tonight when I can just cook it on the fly?
Christine Schiefer: On the fly in the sky. Korean barbecue here we come. I mean I think... I think we're... I think they're onto something with that one.
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying um and then the most popular theory and the most accepted theory is that you got to get your little book out about what what this group of birds is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: But a flock of vultures which apparently is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait I do know that one.
Em Schulz: Is it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh you do know it.
Em Schulz: I think I do. There's two words for it. There's a committee of vultures and there's also a wake which like very funeral.
Christine Schiefer: Oh a wake. That's good. Oh uh...
Em Schulz: A popular accepted theory.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently in flight they are called a kettle.
Em Schulz: Oh okay. Well they they were in flight so a kettle of vultures. [laughter] The theory is that they puked as they passed overhead. That's the main theory.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: Fun fact when threatened a wake of vultures will projectile vomit towards predators to make a faster getaway. One because the vomit is heavily acidic so it might hurt them theoretically hurt the predator.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: But also they're emptying their stomach so they will be lighter and they can take off quicker um so maybe they.
Christine Schiefer: Wait that makes so much sense.
Em Schulz: So maybe they were all threatened by something and they like had a delay in their puking. Maybe they just took off and then once they were in the sky they decided that now's the time to throw up. That's the weird part is that they don't ever really throw up in the air. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But the thought is like maybe again this is from an Acquired Taste.
Christine Schiefer: What if they were up in a tree?
Em Schulz: Hmm?
Christine Schiefer: What if they were up in a tree? And something like startled them? I don't know.
Em Schulz: May be, may be. In An Acquired Taste Podcast they said like maybe it was like a classic like if you puke I'll puke like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah exactly like...
Em Schulz: And maybe...
Christine Schiefer: One of them was like wait oh...
Em Schulz: So maybe one of them had like had like like they reflexed... They all reflexively threw up together after one got sick or something um...
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: And so that would explain the random chunks of different types of meat like all the samples were different meat and vultures are known to eat all the scraps. Uh and that does mean that all the people were literally eating raw turkey puke um.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: Uh Vulture puke thank you.
Em Schulz: Anything for a dollar right Jimmy Welch?
Christine Schiefer: Jimmy. [chuckle] Jimmy that dollar better be worth. Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: But here's the other problem to produce that much meat there had to have been a lot of vultures and Mrs. Crouch said the sky was empty. So also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah she would've probably seen that.
Em Schulz: She would've seen at least a flock of birds and maybe her first thought...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Would have been then oh one of the birds must have died and that's where all the meat came from? I don't know. But uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's so weird.
Em Schulz: Vultures also vomit as a defense mechanism not just to randomly puke in the sky away...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: From predators so it really doesn't make sense why they'd be throwing up up there. But then someone came up with a great point that a lot of farmers at the time would if they had left over meat which would have been often sheep meat or mutton.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: If they ever had left over raw sheep meat they would poison it and leave it in the fields to lure in and kill coyotes...
CS: [gasp]
ES: So maybe vultures ate some of the poisoned sheep meat in a field took off and then got... All got sick together and threw up right over the farm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Which then means that poor Jimmy Welch for one dollar was eating raw poisoned sheep meat...
Christine Schiefer: Poisoned meat.
Em Schulz: From the inside of a vulture.
Christine Schiefer: Holy... From like the stomach acid bile of a vulture urgh.
Em Schulz: Yes and then uh reportedly nine days after this meat shower the same thing happened in London also with minimal explanation. So it's happened more than once and then the last...
Christine Schiefer: How many day... How long after?
Em Schulz: Nine days later.
Christine Schiefer: What? That's weird.
Em Schulz: That's weird. And the last fun fact I'm gonna leave you on because you're only 90 minutes from here Christine. If you visit Transylvania University in Lexington they still have a piece of the meat preserved in their lab...
Christine Schiefer: Noo.
Em Schulz: From the meat shower.
Christine Schiefer: Wait till I tell you when Blaise and I went down a rabbit hole about Transylvania because uh we learned so much about their mascot and they changed their mascot, it is a whole thing.
Em Schulz: What'd they change it from and to?
Christine Schiefer: Okay let me pull up the correct information so I don't mis-speak.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: The Transylvania School mascot is a bat right.
Em Schulz: Obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah so it's a bat.
Em Schulz: Obviously...
Christine Schiefer: But okay hold on. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry poor Blaise is like like you're telling it all wrong um it's a bat called Raf because it, it's a type of bat that is uh like native to this area.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But they used to be the pioneers and then students were like fuck no.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Pioneers aren't cool anymore 'cause fuck the pioneers.
Em Schulz: Exactly if you're gonna go to Transylvania... Well also if you're gonna be in Transylvania university you better have a Dracula themed...
Christine Schiefer: Yes for example a bat...
Em Schulz: The fact that it's not a vampire bat pisses me off.
Christine Schiefer: That's what Blaise got all upset about and I said vampire bats are not native to the area. It wouldn't be correct.
Em Schulz: Who cares?
Christine Schiefer: I care.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm. You're wrong. It has to be a vampire bat, it's Transylvania University.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I'm actually... I'm actually not wrong um.
Em Schulz: And also it'd be great. I would love it if the... Like their math professor calls himself the count. That would be really special. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah so.
Em Schulz: Is that it, is that the whole the rabbit hole I thought we were probably going to like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know we had... We went through an entire road trip about this uh and we got into a big heated discussion about the type of bat and at this point I don't totally feel like...
Em Schulz: You don't feel safe to discuss I understand.
Christine Schiefer: I just don't remember enough to be honest uh well yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay well I side with Blaise whatever he said I side with but um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh great okay.
Em Schulz: Anyway that's the last fun fact uh that's that is the Kentucky meat shower.
Christine Schiefer: Uh Em that was the wildest thing I've ever heard. Oh but they're still called the pioneers that's, that's what's happening. They're called the pioneers but their logo their mascot is no longer a pioneer.
Em Schulz: Question for you I'll ask you actually... Well this is the first question then I'll ask you back up question if it's easier to answer because it's one of my favorite things to ask people on like a friend date. What...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: If you... Relax by the way, okay with your Oh my Gods. What...
Christine Schiefer: You're not being a very good friend date jeez.
Em Schulz: I... I'm bulling you a little bit but I'm okay with it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. If you had to pick a mascot like let's say like you like ran a school and you got to pick the mascot at all what would the mascot be? Second question which maybe if it's easier for you to answer if you were to be a superhero or like be, create our own sports team what would the colors be? I guess if you were in high school what would the mascot and colors be?
Christine Schiefer: The wild cats.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In Salt Lake City, I don't know. Uh. Wow Em you have asked me this before and I remember you made a really rude face at my answer so um...
Em Schulz: What did you say beige?
Christine Schiefer: No I said like like a cool olive green or like a maroon and then you got all weird about it.
Em Schulz: I did say something, I have a weird personal uh offense to...
Christine Schiefer: I love...
Em Schulz: Olive green.
Christine Schiefer: I love a muted. I love a muted uh muted color um. I don't know Em it feels very on the spot. What's your answer?
Em Schulz: That's okay. I I don't have an answer. That's why I like to ask. So it's not wrong to not have an answer.
Christine Schiefer: Hmmm.
Em Schulz: But I'd I'd like to think...
Christine Schiefer: Okay I'm gonna think about it.
Em Schulz: I think if it were a sports team, I don't know why I make it a sports team, but I think about like the jerseys and how like a lot of times the outfit is just white but it's got like little pops of some colors.
Christine Schiefer: Hmmm.
Em Schulz: That's easier for me to swallow. And it would obviously my... Be my favorite contrast of the dark purple and neon green.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Yeah. And it'd be glow in the dark obviously.
Em Schulz: Obviously. Some sort of ectoplasm's you know ghostly thing. But I don't know what it would... Maybe it'd be the phantoms?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I was going to say I don't think you would pick a an animal.
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yours would be more like the phantoms. That's good Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Okay you don't have to have an answer right now but some, some food for thought later.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna think about it.
Em Schulz: Next time you're in a car with Blaise.
Christine Schiefer: I like it. Um. Okay so do you remember what I'm covering today?
Em Schulz: Oh my God it was a two-parter. Oh Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Sure was. How long has it been? Days.
Em Schulz: It's been a while. It's been a while.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm going to do the part two of William Heirens aka the Lipstick Killer. Um.
Em Schulz: Oh yes. Can you do a previously on?
Christine Schiefer: Okay previously on um the fella named William George Heirens uh he grew up having some bad hobbies which was petty theft.
Em Schulz: Yes yes.
Christine Schiefer: But then he went to college and started ballroom dancing.
Em Schulz: Yes okay it's coming back yes.
Christine Schiefer: But then he was struggling and he had some very weird holdups about sex according to one source. Uh and then he began stealing again to like I don't know feel better? I have no idea. He just couldn't help himself. So he started stealing again and he was on his way to a date and he was supposed to go to the post office to cash some money, a bond or something he had, he had stolen uh but the bank or post office was closed so then on the way back he decided to rob somebody for money to pay for the date.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And that is when he was caught yeah.
Em Schulz: And then didn't at some point didn't he he... When he killed somebody he wrote in lipstick like please s-save me I can't stop or something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay so meanwhile as as his life is unfolding cause we're doing sort of like a cut to okay?
Em Schulz: Mm-hm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So meanwhile um as this is unfolding the first victim was found with uh I believe a pillowcase over her head, um a lot of stab wounds and nothing had been stolen and her wounds had been taped shut.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Yes I remember that okay.
Christine Schiefer: And then uh another victim Frances uh was wrapped, her head had been wrapped in towels and she had been stabbed in the neck and a bullet wound was found in her head. But just like Josie's case nothing was stolen um except this time there was for one thing a bloody fingerprint smudge on the door jamb of the apartment. And the most uh notable one as you mentioned was written in lipstick across a wall the following words "For heaven's sake catch me before I kill more, I cannot control myself."
Em Schulz: There it is.
Christine Schiefer: And uh papers dubbed the culprit the Lipstick Killer. And of course this is post World War II people are so over talking about you know all the depressing state of the world and they just go into a frenzy about this uh about this story. And uh they finally arrest him uh... Well they arrest Bill and he is... Or William Heirens aka Bill and he has been uh stealing, he's on... He's going on a date he's stealing something he gets caught, he pulls a weapon. And uh he is... One officer who was on break like smashed a bunch of like Acme, we said like Acme flower pots over his head.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And then uh and then he was arrested and he happened to be in the Degnan's neighborhood where and this is the most uh, the most upsetting I would say... Not most upsetting but like one of the most notorious uh crimes that took place in this sort of spree was the murder of a six year old uh girl named Suzanne who had been found dismembered. Do you recall that at all?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And she was found uh dismembered, her body was found in several drainage sites and uh the the killer had left a note with a ransom demand. Um and so basically what happened is that uh William Heirens, Bill was arrested in the same neighborhood as the one Suzanne went missing in.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so they said this must be our guy.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's previously on.
Em Schulz: Great previously on.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry I-I was sc-scrolling through like trying to frantically piece this together.
Em Schulz: I know I put I put you on the spot there I didn't mean to.
Christine Schiefer: No it's okay. I mean I-I should know you know but I'm trying to find the the most important parts. Okay so now we're onto part two. After Bill's arrest he was taken to the hospital and um as you recall he had been smashed in the head with several flower pots so he had a head wound that required stitches. And he was in bad shape he was exhausted, in pain, heavily medicated, probably confused um I would argue uh just about how frantic everything happened um and although it's unconfirmed it's it's assumed and it's very likely that he had a concussion.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he continually slipped in and out of consciousness but a detective told reporters that he suspected Bill was pretending to be this sick to avoid questioning.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But whether he was pretending or not police decided to interrogate him anyway without any representation present.
Em Schulz: Well done.
Christine Schiefer: And they accused Bill...
Em Schulz: Just kidding...
Christine Schiefer: Of the notorious lipstick murders. Oh and remember there was that other guy that they uh, that they aggressively inter-interrogated and beat up. And...
Em Schulz: Yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Then they had to pay his hospital bill and he had to leave town.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And he just happened to be a custodian in Suzanne's building so like.
Em Schulz: These cops really...
Christine Schiefer: They already have...
Em Schulz: They're very happy to just do whatever the fuck they want huh?
Christine Schiefer: Talk about like, it's like trigger happy but like I don't know interrogation happy. I have no idea what the right word is but yeah. So they already have like a bad track record um. So they decide to interrogate him without any representation present and they accuse him of the notorious lipstick murders as well as a brutal killing and dismemberment of six-year-old Suzanne Degnan.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And their only evidence at the moment like I said was that Bill was burglarizing an apartment near Suzanne's home. So that was it.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like there was no... There was literally no other connection except that he was in the same neighborhood. So for six days Bill was denied access to a lawyer uh but not only that...
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: He was also denied food and water.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. For six days?
Christine Schiefer: Uh so tortured. Yep. Yep.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Uh he was beaten and at one point his testicles were allegedly burned chemically. Uh.
Em Schulz: [gasp] What?
Christine Schiefer: To try and coerce a-a confession.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The thing that I can't get over that the first time I heard I really wish I had never heard it is uh that he received also a spinal tap without anesthesia.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And you know about my spine thing.
Em Schulz: I do on top of just people's general spine thing. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Did I ever tell about my spinal tap? Which I did I think but it was so bad.
Em Schulz: Sure did. Sure did. That was one of the first...
Christine Schiefer: And then it turns out the doctor was blind. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yep. Yep. That was one of the first I think traumas you ever shared with me and it... 'Cause it happened in real time.
Christine Schiefer: That's when... And I had such a I have always my whole life had a like a really deep seated fear about spines. And then I start to wonder like did I know...
Em Schulz: Did you know. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This was going to happen? Do you know what I mean? Like it almost like created...
Em Schulz: It's like a Natalie Wood knowing to be scared of water.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. It's the same kind of idea. Like is there some weird like deep down you know knowing about it.
ES: Yes.
CS: Um. Anyway so he was given a spinal tap without anesthesia uh apparently to like test for something but like it didn't really make sense like... The the explanation they gave for why they allegedly had to do a spinal tap like didn't really match up with any sort of scientific basis um. And shortly after the spinal tap they tried to do a polygraph test but he was in too much pain to participate so they gave up.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God. Like it's hard to hear. It's hard to hear.
Christine Schiefer: I'd also, I'd also like to give you the little uh reminder that at this point he's still 17, so he is a minor. Yeah.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Good. Noted. Noted.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Uh. So police give him a dose of sodium pentothal. Do you know, do you know what that is?
Em Schulz: I, I don't want to know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's uh considered the truth serum. It's sort of a...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: A chemical that's meant to lower your inhibitions and allegedly...
Em Schulz: Does it actually work?
Christine Schiefer: Like... So I think it is supposed to inhibit your brain from being able to lie but like the science has not really confirmed it. It's like pseudoscience a bit.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And I mean for for all we know it just makes you like kind of out of it and woozy. And maybe you're not like as quick on your feet you know and you can't keep your thoughts straight.
Em Schulz: Like drunk. It just makes you drunk.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. May maybe it just makes you drunk. Um. So...
Em Schulz: Is it just they're just shooting vodka into your neck?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Just I wish that probably would've been a lot better honestly. Um. Yeah. So they give him a dose of sodium pentathol without his consent or his parents, remember because he's a minor. Um. And he has not been able to access his parents for several days. Uh. He's been denied access and uh sodium pentathol is...
Em Schulz: Are his parents... Sorry are his parents not wondering where the fuck he is?
Christine Schiefer: Well he was at college so you know it's only been...
Em Schulz: Oh right...
Christine Schiefer: A couple days. I imagine like back then...
Em Schulz: They don't even know...
Christine Schiefer: You're not texting. You know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay. Sorry for interrupting you.
Christine Schiefer: So... No no it's okay. To so to answer your question sodium pentathol is an anesthetic medication and it's sometimes called truth serum. And it's used, it's been used historically to make people more compliant in interrogations. And the "theory", quote unquote, is that it inhibits a part of the brain that allows people to lie. But again it's sort of a pseudoscience. Uh. In actuality people dosed with sodium pentathol might be more susceptible to suggestions. So even though your inhib... Your inhibitions are lowered that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna tell the truth. It might just mean you'll agree with what you're being told as the truth.
ES: Mmm.
CS: Like you'll you'll just go along with the story. Right. So at this point they're clearly trying to create this narrative. And uh you know the idea is people who have been dosed with this sodium pentathol might be more susceptible to suggestion therefore confessions or testimonies made while under the influence of it. Um. And so these testimonies are not very reliable uh and you know raise a bunch of red flags. But while drugged Bill allegedly implicated someone else in the crimes like he said I didn't do it someone else did it and they said Oh yeah who? And he gave a name that sounded like Merman, Harry Merman something like that.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they said Oh yeah who's that? And investigators said, Is that your alter ego? And apparently Bill just seemed to agree that it was possible. But remember he's been like tortured for days and...
Em Schulz: And drugged and starving and...
Christine Schiefer: Drugged and also deprived of sleep which I forgot to mention. Um which we know...
Em Schulz: Which is definitely torture.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And has also proven to be more damaging than like being drunk or like more more inebriating than being drunk.
Em Schulz: And also I feel like him like alluding to the answer being yes he could have just said nothing. He could've just gone [vocalization] and like that could have been a fucking yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah exactly like made a noise that they said was a confirm you know confirmation. Exactly. So he mumbled something it sounded like Merman. And then when the press got ahold of this, these fucking dummies, I'm sorry, they interpreted this as they're like Merman sounds like murder man. And so...
Em Schulz: Oh for fuck's sake.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's not even clever. And so they basically created this like the press created this narrative that Bill's alter ego was this murder man blood thirsty personality, like his weird villain version of himself.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Just totally went out of control. And when he finally underwent a polygraph test the results were inconclusive which we know polygraphs are not allowed as evidence in court for a reason.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. So police even brought Bill to the crime scenes to try and restage the murders and let the press come to like watch and take photos.
Em Schulz: Wild. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He was, so basically the whole world's against him at this point. He was finally transported to the Cook County Jail infirmary on July 2nd. And just like that custodian previously arrested for the same crime, Hector, Bill had to recover from these injuries he sustained during the interrogation. I mean they're literally put putting needles in his spine. Like he's, he's being tortured. However unlike their interrogation with Hector uh they knew they had to make this one stick, these charges stick. And so they were like we're not letting this one get away.
Christine Schiefer: So the arrest took the heat off their most recent suspect in the case who was a guy named Richard Thomas. And he was one that the police had been eyeing. Richard Thomas was a nurse from Chicago and although he had recently moved to Phoenix Arizona he was actually in Chicago when Suzanne Degnan was kidnapped and murdered. And when police arrived in Arizona to question him he was facing jail time for another crime. He had actually been arrested for molesting his 13-year-old daughter.
Em Schulz: Oh holy shit. Okay. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yep. Uh. Some sources say it was his niece. The original newspaper source from 1946 says it's his daughter. Either way it was a young girl. Uh. He had also been charged for crimes like extortion and writing notes to threaten people. Remember the ransom note?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Christine Schiefer: A handwriting expert with the Phoenix police had seen the Suzanne Degnan ransom note and was like Hey that looks a lot like that guy Thomas's handwriting and thought it was so similar that he called Chicago Police to like say I think this might be your guy. Richard also frequented a car yard across the street from where Suzanne's remains had been found.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And like I said he was in Chicago at the time of her murder.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He often carried surgical instruments with him even though he was a nurse and uh bragged to people that he was a surgeon even though he was a nurse.
Em Schulz: Uh okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Investigators, like I don't know how else to say except he's lying. Um investigators believed he had the anatomical knowledge to have dismembered Suzanne or could have at least researched it...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: In his weird understanding of himself as a surgeon. Um. Which is something Bill who was 17 and like knew how to play chess and ballroom dance like didn't know about or how a spine is disarticulated you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Like that's not something Bill would necessarily have known.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So in questioning Richard actually admitted like the nurse who was being you know a person of interest. He admitted to killing this little girl. But then when they arrested Bill, Chicago Police called Phoenix Police and said Oh nevermind. He didn't do it. We got the real guy.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Richard was like, Yeah you're right. It wasn't me it was that other guy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Of obviously, well actually you know...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Somebody already like that was his luckiest goddamn break. I mean I can't. I can't. So of course he recants his confession.
Em Schulz: Is there a reason behind it? Like, is there a reason why someone else said it?
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean?
Em Schulz: Like why like he just, he just, it was his lucky break because somebody else admitted to it. Is that what you're saying?
Christine Schiefer: No. So they arrested Bill. Well, okay...
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, oh, sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So.
Em Schulz: This is where my, my brain did a flip.
Christine Schiefer: It's okay. So Richard is the nurse from Chicago.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Who at first was being looked at as the...
Em Schulz: Had the surgical equipment and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. As the killer. And he confessed that he did it.
ES: Right.
CS: But then this whole arrest with the flower pots and the torture of this young kid named Bill, who happened to be burglarizing somebody in Suzanne's neighborhood happens and they force, they coerce a confession out of him.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So they call back to the other police, say, oh, nevermind that guy Richard didn't do it, even though he said he did.
Em Schulz: Oh, I thought they finally got Bill to actually confess under distress. And that was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I mean, they sort of did, like they, they...
Em Schulz: I guess kind of...
Christine Schiefer: The Merman thing where he said, oh, it's another alter ego of mine. But in reality, like he was doped up on...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Sodium pentothal.
Em Schulz: That's, that's still an incredibly lucky move that they just decided to go with the person that they've been torturing. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like for, for that Richard Guy who literally said, who as far as I'm concerned, did it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And who admitted to doing it. And then all of a sudden police are like, oh, nevermind. You're off the hook.
Em Schulz: What the fuck?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know...
Em Schulz: Why would you, why wouldn't you...
Christine Schiefer: It's just crazy.
Em Schulz: Do you think at all, this is just a random thought, but do you think they, if you're going with the two options are somebody admits to it and there's somebody who hasn't totally admitted to it, but you tortured, like, I feel like they almost maybe even thought for a second that Richard was the guy who did it, but they needed to be able to like justify why they tortured this guy. And they were like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of, that's definitely one of the theories is like they were into deep with this dude. 'Cause they had already gotten in so much trouble. Not really so much trouble, but they'd already fucked up with Hector and tortured him and then had to let him go and ruined his life and paid a $20,000 hospital bill. So they were like, we have to make this one stick. Like this one has to be it.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Especially now that they've tortured him, stuck needles in his spine. Like, oh, well if he killed a 6-year-old, then it doesn't really matter that we did all that. You know? So, yeah. I think that is kind of the theory is like they just went with it, umm, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And decided to believe it was Bill and not Richard. And so it's just so baffling. But yeah, Richard was like, yeah, you're right. It wasn't me after all. Umm, so, you know, he was just off the hook and police decided Bill was guilty and they thought, let's build a case against him. So they searched his room and of course that's where they found thousands of dollars of stolen goods and bonds, uh, you know, things he had stolen from people. They even found a surgical tool set among the many stolen items. Umm, and there it, you know, that could have been damning evidence. However, one detective did tell reporters that there was no evidence it had ever been used, that it seemed to be just brand new.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so investigators determined there was a nine point match between Bill's fingerprints, and the print on the ransom note. Umm, and I don't know if you've seen, like, when they do fingerprint analysis with like the different dots, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To like pinpoint. So there's no standard in the US as to how many points must align to confirm a match beyond a, you know, beyond doubt. But some departments do accept a nine point match, however many require at least a 12 point match.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and in places like England and France, they require up to 16 and 17 point matches, and nine would never be conclusive.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But we're in 1946 Chicago and they want him to be guilty and nine points was considered close enough. So it's permissible evidence. And initially a forensic expert actually ruled Bill out, umm, in the Francis Brown case. She was one of the women that was found, umm, with her head covered declaring his fingerprints didn't match the print on the door jamb. Remember when I, it was the one with the lipstick on the wall.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And there was a bloody fingerprint, but later a different expert came forward and said, actually it does match Bill's fingerprint. So they just like found a new guy to say it does, you know.
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: Like they can just create their own evidence.
Em Schulz: Cute.
Christine Schiefer: Like, it's just cute. Right. Yeah. Umm, and then of course police to answer your question, received their confession because after several days of interrogation, Bill finally just to...
Em Schulz: Gave in.
Christine Schiefer: To basically make the torture stop.
Em Schulz: Yeah, of course.
Christine Schiefer: Agreed to plead guilty. Yeah. 'cause like, I mean, I don't think I would've ever even lasted that long, right? Like.
Em Schulz: No, I would've been like, all right, I did it. Like, just don't fucking come near me.
Christine Schiefer: Especially at 17, like, get the needle outta my spine, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: Call my mom. Like, I, I'd be like.
Christine Schiefer: Call my mom. I'll say whatever you want me to say. This was horrible.
Em Schulz: I don't know how this was even like legal, legally. I don't know what the right words are, but, uh, like in today's world, that would've been pulled right out, right? Of like, oh, well, it was a confession was taken under duress.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, there's still quite a few coerced confession cases out there that people are fighting, you know, the innocence project is definitely...
Em Schulz: But like one so drastically like spinal taps and starvation and not letting you call your mom and...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think, I think especially with the not letting your, especially as a minor, I think, and especially not allowing you to evoke attorney, your attorney rights and parental rights, I think, or your rights to see your parents, I think that probably today would be like.
Em Schulz: Thrown out.
Christine Schiefer: A huge no go. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm, I know that there are cases of, you know, keeping people and not letting them get a lawyer and, but I think just with, I think especially with camera evidence nowadays, it's a lot harder to pull that off without consequences.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you can watch videotapes. Like, did you ever watch Making a Murderer? Which was like one of the first, umm.
Em Schulz: Uh, probably it was so long ago now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. It was when I was in Glendale, so it must have been like 2016? Umm, but it was like one of the first like true crime docuseries that came out, like before the big, you know, boom of them. Umm, but that was kind of the, the whole story was that his case was predicated on, like, he was almost tricked. Some people believe he was tricked into confessing to something he didn't do. And so, you know, this, I think this thing kind of still happens, like the manipulation and the coercion and the... Yeah. But you're probably right that a spinal tap might not fly. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I feel like it could not be admissible in court to have like a minor being fully tortured on his balls. Like, oh my God but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Chemically burning his scrotum. And like, I'm not saying things like that don't happen anymore. I'm just saying I think you're right. That like, it wouldn't be as widely accepted maybe nowadays.
Em Schulz: It was almost a hundred years ago. So it does feel very wild west.
Christine Schiefer: It's... Which is crazy to think about. Yeah. It's crazy to think this was like 80 years ago. Umm, but yeah, so God, it's horrible. Uh, so his lawyers and even his parents insisted he sign a confession and enter the plea in exchange for a single life sentence. So even his parents were like, just enter a plea. Say you, say you did it just to like make sure you're not put to death, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Bill agreed, uh, he wrote a confession for all three murders and he later claimed that he actually used an article from the Chicago Tribune to add details to make his account realistic, 'cause he didn't know the details, 'cause he didn't...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Do them according to him.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But when he went to the courthouse to enter his plea on July 30th, he pled innocent. He said, I recant my confession. And prosecutors were fucking pissed.
Em Schulz: I bet.
Christine Schiefer: They said, okay, you know what? You're gonna play games with us. Now we're sticking you with three life sentences for all three murders.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And yeah. He's playing a dangerous game here. Umm, Bill claimed he feared for his life, if he didn't accept these terms, he would face the death sentence. And he was convinced the media had made it impossible for him to get a fair trial. So he basically just said, fine, I'll plead guilty this time and I'll accept my terms, your terms. So prosecutors and investigators were like, okay, easy, open and shut, black and white. Good job, guys.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, regardless of whether Bill did murder Suzanne and Francis, uh, they actually had no evidence whatsoever, uh, linking him to Josephine Ross crime scene, which is the one they said that his fingerprint was on. But like, that wasn't even true.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So there was no trial, only a sentencing. The first day of the sentence hearing was very long. And the victim's family members were present.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, Josephine, Josie's daughter was there who believed Bill was innocent of her mother's murder.
Em Schulz: Finally, someone.
Christine Schiefer: Like... Right, I mean, Jesus, she told the press, I cannot believe that young Heirens murdered my mother. He just does not fit into the picture of my mother's death. I have looked at all the things Heirens stole, and there was nothing of my mother's things among them. And his whole thing was petty theft. He just took little, little trinkets and items, and she looked at every single thing and said, not one of these is my mom's.
Em Schulz: So, I mean that's that's...
Christine Schiefer: It's just doesn't make sense he would go murder her and not steal anything, and then just go on stealing from people. It just doesn't make sense.
Em Schulz: I call that a slam dunk of like, defense of like, none of the, like, I am the child of this mother. I know my mother, I know my mother's things.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: This does not make sense. Like, how is that not is... Tell me that worked in his favor, please.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Of course not.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So she just was there. She, I mean, she's not, you know, being, there was no trial. So she's just there for the sentencing.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So an eye witness testified that he had seen Bill carrying a shopping bag in the Degnan's neighborhood on the night of Suzanne's murder. And according to this witness, he had seen Bill's face in full view when Bill walked in front of car headlights. However, the same witness had previously told police that he couldn't see the face of the man because it was way too dark. So they were like, just say you did. And he was like, okay.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so infuriating. Uh, Bill was ultimately sentenced to three consecutive life sentences, and the prosecution suggested he be denied parole should he ever qualify. Bill, this is terrible. Attempted to hang himself in his cell out of despair, uh, but was rescued. And in the following decades, Bill just served his time in prison quietly and productively. Uh, he worked in prison, he took on jobs. Uh, he got some managerial roles. He took advantage of prison college programs. He received a degree and studied several trades. And, uh, just like he was, when he went to those reform schools, he was reported to be a model inmate.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: And above all else, he continu... Continually and adamantly declared his innocence in all three c-crimes for forever. He said, I did not do them, and I will...
Em Schulz: Did he ever get out?
Christine Schiefer: Nope. Sorry. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, over the years he pursued clemency hearings, retrials, lawsuits, like basically tried every avenue to try and get his release. But again and again, his attempts were denied. He remained in prison and clemency projects whose lawyers took on cases where they suspected wrongful convictions did take interest in Bill's case, but they also failed to prove his innocence. And there were actually studies done by psychologists, uh, who published some cases on Bill that are questionable now looking back, because they claimed everything from him having schizophrenia to DID, dissociative identity disorder...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, because of the whole Merman thing. I'm like, that is such a weak connection.
Em Schulz: Oh, like, shut the fuck up with that. Are you serious?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. They were like, oh, he has a dissociative identity. Like, come on. So Bill's new defense team denied everything, insisted Bill had gotten a rotten deal from corrupt investigators and a subpar attorney. I would agree with that. And Suzanne, but for what it's worth, Suzanne Degnan's family was extremely opposed to any clemency considerations, which you can understand. Like they, if they think this guy killed their 6-year-old daughter.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like they're not gonna want any sort of leniency. And at a 2002, hearing, Suzanne's older sister Betty, who was only 10 when Suzanne was murdered, spoke against Bill saying, think of the worst nightmare that you cannot put outta your mind. You're not allowed to put out of your mind.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But again, you know, they of course have been told and believe that this is the person who killed, you know, her sister. So in 1983, oh, this is horrible. Bill was almost released on parole by declaration of a federal judge. But Suzanne's siblings banded together and contested the release. And the attorney general said, only God and Heirens know how many other women he murdered. Now a bleeding heart do-gooder decides that Heirens is rehabilitated and should go free. I'm going to make sure that kill crazed animal stays where he is.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So they put him back in and soon politicians and even the Illinois Senate got involved and it was ruled that he would remain in prison.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And he remained in prison. And as the years passed, his family died. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: But a few high school friends continued to visit him as they got older, like throughout the years. And he was sort of stuck in stasis, like they're all moving on with their lives and they're just popping in to visit, you know, his high school friends. But, uh, nothing he could do. And so Bill continued to insist on his innocence, and his supporters have repeatedly pointed the finger at that guy, Richard Thomas, the nurse.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Who clearly seemed to be a better suspect and even confessed. That said, we also don't know, which is a great point, umm...
Em Schulz: If he was also...
Christine Schiefer: If he was also yeah, uh, coerced. Like who knows if he was under the same duress, like, we don't know. You know? So...
Em Schulz: I don't, I mean, but yeah, the fact that he, like he did confess, and if he was, if he was guilty, like he's just sitting pretty being like, whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Guess I made out like a bandit.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so. I mean, Jesus. So ultimately being guilty of molesting his daughter, of course, makes him also a likely suspect. So he definitely did do that, but it doesn't necessarily prove he did anything to Suzanne. Umm, but if he was guilty, he, like you said, sat pretty until he took that secret to his grave. Uh, and now this is just one of the wildest sentences. Uh, ultimately, Bill, William Heirens, served one of the longest prison sentences in US History.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: For a crime he potentially did not commit, uh, that was over 65 years. He served. And...
Em Schulz: At some point... Oh, what, go ahead. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say at some point, like even if it's, I guess it's not technically an open case because someone went to jail, but like to, I don't, I don't really know the words to ask the question. If there's a case that people are unsure about eventually so many years will have passed that there's no way to prove it anymore. Like there's no more witnesses. I guess you'll always have fi... A fingerprint on file or something. But like, as time goes on, it's just harder and harder to h-hash back into something like that.
Christine Schiefer: You know I... No, I think about that a lot. And my only consolation when I like start to feel like panicky about like, oh my God, like, it's the end of the road. There's no, no more answers. But then I think, you know what, at a certain point we didn't know about DNA tracing. DNA evidence.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe there's something in our future we haven't even conceived of. Like...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking time travel. I don't know. Like maybe there's some way that like the pieces will come together, maybe somebody else will die and on their death bed will say something or, or in their storage unit you'll find, you know, X, Y, Z. So I feel like there's always potential, but you're right. It feels so much more hopeless as time goes on and then you start to think like, well, we have to move on to current cases. We have to...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's like he, he spent 65 years in prison and he passed away in 2012 at the age of 83. So it's like, we can pursue it maybe, but like, it wouldn't get him justice. You know, he's already passed. Umm.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just really too bad.
Em Schulz: How many years?
Christine Schiefer: And speaking... 65 years.
Em Schulz: 65 years. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And he was 83 when he passed. So, umm a long time.
Em Schulz: He was a baby.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Umm, and many people speaking of deathbed confessions, like hoped maybe he would reveal something before he passed, but he died insisting his, on his innocence. Uh, nothing changed. And Suzanne Degnan's younger brother, apparently felt relieved at the news. Umm, he said, I just never thought this day would come. I was numbed by the previous 29 years of going to parole board hearings. So they were just happy to have it behind them, umm, you know, thinking that he had done it.
ES: Mmm.
CS: Like they, they're convinced it was, it was him, which I mean, you might have to be, if the other option is, oh, the killer's just out there...
ES: Right.
CS: Having a grand old time, maybe like as a coping mechanism, they were like, yeah, we believe the police. He did it. You know?
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, I can't put myself in their shoes. But, umm, born after Suzanne's murders, uh, Jim who, who had made that quote about, uh, being relieved that Bill had passed, uh, he had been born after Suzanne had killed... Been killed, his sister, but he said his parents never spoke of it at home. And in his 20s, he investi-investigated the crime himself. Umm.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: He spoke with authorities. Yeah. And he did his own kind of investigating and concluded that the sentencing was correct and that Bill belonged in prison. So, you know, for what it's worth, he did his own...
Em Schulz: His own research.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Yep. Own research. And that was what he concluded. So on Bill's death, uh, Suzanne's sister Betty said, hopefully he's at peace and we don't have to worry about it anymore. I hope he made amends. I never wished him ill, I just wanted him in prison for everybody's safety. It was never out of retribution. It was out of fear that he could hurt somebody else. And if we did not go to all these parole hearings and protest it, and he got out and he hurt a child, you just couldn't live with it. Which I think is a fair argument. It's not their fault the police fucking tortured him into a confession.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So Steven Drizin, the legal director at the Center on Wrongful Convictions, umm, regretted the center's inability to win Bill's release because the Center on Wrongful Convictions did try to get him out of prison. He said, we chased lots of leads, but bottom line, short of proving that the police framed him or finding D-DNA evidence that exonerated him and implicated someone else, we just could never prove his actual innocence. But the case sure looks different with what we know now. The case for Bill's guilt is anything but certain. So today, if you Google, you know, the Lipstick Killer, you Google William Heirens, uh, he is the one known as the Lipstick Killer and is listed as one of the most notorious murderers of the 20th century. Even though...
Em Schulz: Woah.
Christine Schiefer: There's a potential he didn't do it. And I, you know what?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There's a potential he did. I wanna be clear, like there's very much potential. He was in the area. Who knows? Uh, do I believe he did it? I don't think he be... I don't think he murdered Suzanne Degnan the child at least.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: From what...
Em Schulz: I, well...
Christine Schiefer: But...
Em Schulz: I I well I wasn't there. But I I, my, I think our hunches are exactly aligned. You and me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think we are aligned on that as well. Umm, so just like the Degnan s-siblings, many people do still remain convinced of William Heirens guilt, including politicians and judges, and of course, the authorities who continue to, to deny his parole bids, although I would say they probably have, umm, a little bit of a bias, but whatever. Umm, and the case is considered one of the most controversial of the 20th century due to police misconduct, which I would consider pretty severe, both in Bill's interrogation and the interrogations before, uh, before him for the same crime. So the interrogation of the custodian as well. And that is the story of William Heirens. It's very unsatisfying. You know.
Em Schulz: I yeah, I was, that's, I'm glad you said it, because I kind of wanted to go great story, but then I also wanted to go horrible story, but then I also wanted to go...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It is.
Em Schulz: I don't know how I feel.
Christine Schiefer: I don't either. It's very, uh, it's just, it's just, I, I starting in the true crime world knew him as the Lipstick Killer. I didn't even know there was a question about it. Like, I just always.
Em Schulz: Well, yeah, you hear a name like the lipstick killer, you assume there's been some really solid ground on that.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: And I will also add that, uh, there were, I mean, there are a bunch of other inconsistencies. There was, they had him write, uh, write something down that, to, to check the handwriting compared to the lipstick message.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then they, they used the fact that some of the words were misspelled in the same way.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, to like say he did it, but then he later said, oh no, they told me to spell it that way.
Em Schulz: Oh, God.
Christine Schiefer: So they can match. Right? So like, you think, oh, well, shit if he's spelling like this really random word the exact same way, and he's like, no, no, that's how they instructed me to write it. So, you know, I mean, and again, it's like he, he said police said, you know, so the police denied that, but there's just a lot of weird stuff. Umm, some people claim that, uh, the lipstick message may not have been written by the killer and may have been written by a reporter who wanted to make the story more salacious.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, some people claim that the, umm, fingerprint on the ransom note was planted because it was a little too perfect. Uh.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, there's a lot... And I'm, these are all just claims that I've heard. I'm not saying anything is proven one way or the other, but there's just a lot of, umm, question marks, you know?
Em Schulz: Sure. Okay. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: Well, I guess we'll never know, especially now that he's gone. But, umm.
Christine Schiefer: It's too bad.
Em Schulz: Good storytelling. I appreciate the two-parter. I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just glad the two-parter has been completed. Uh, you know, moving on.
Em Schulz: Well, good job. Christine. I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: I'm just, I'm...
Christine Schiefer: Let's talk about the meat shower...
Em Schulz: I'm just not feeling... Just not feeling satisfied. Only bummed, but happy to be here. [laughter] Uh, also, everybody, this is, uh, shifting gears. This is your moment to drink some water, your weekly reminder, you thirsty little rats, glug, glug.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm gonna go drink some wine, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Oh, right. It is wine time for you, isn't it?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Do you have a wine already on, on your mind of what you're gonna do a little sipping on tonight?
Christine Schiefer: You know, I got a nice Pinot Grig in the fridge that I...
Em Schulz: Uh, oh, I love a Pinot Grig. I like, that's my favorite smell of all of them.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Very fruity. Well, I put it in my suitcase after a venue gave it to us. So I consider it free wine. So I'm gonna drink it.
Em Schulz: Girl math. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Girl Math. Umm.
Em Schulz: Uh, no, I, Pinot Grig was always the, one of all the wines that my, my mom would drink and I would smell all of them. Pinot Grig was the one that I like, got, would get excited to smell. The other ones, I was like, eh, it just smells like kind of normal wine. But Pinot Grig gets me going.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It has a very fruity smell.
Em Schulz: I like to think if I drank wine, that would be my, my go-to.
Christine Schiefer: You totally would be like a white wine like gossipy...
Em Schulz: Fruity bitch.
Christine Schiefer: Fruity bitch. That's exactly where I was going. Yes.
Em Schulz: All right, well have a sip for me. Uh, I've, I'll have some water for you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
