[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, I tried to link it up with the video recording. No...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay, well...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, I don't know. I'm trying to say...
Em Schulz: But you did a great job.
Christine Schiefer: "Three, two, one, go," and every time I feel nervous about it, I don't know why. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, well...
Christine Schiefer: Hi, everyone.
Em Schulz: Welcome everybody, to uh, Christine's nerves. How are they today? Are they at a usual sky high, or is there anything uh...
Christine Schiefer: Do you think you can see...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Where you got a surprising [0:00:37.5] ____?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if you can tell. I'm so sweaty. My palms are so sweaty.
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: I'm just... I don't know Em, because they're always sweaty and I'm always nervous.
Em Schulz: I know, but like, is there anything...
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean, why?
Em Schulz: Particular today that's got you bugging out?
Christine Schiefer: Just like life, you know. Am I right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or am I right?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, you're right. You're right. You're right. For sure, you're right. Um, is there...
Christine Schiefer: Um, let's talk about you. How are you?
Em Schulz: Oh, I wasn't prepared for that on my own podcast. Um...
Christine Schiefer: See? Now you know how it feels.
Em Schulz: Oh man. You know, I'm a little pissed.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Okay. So I got myself some Pokemon cards. I don't get them often anymore because now I have to get the expensive ones and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. You've upgraded.
Em Schulz: I've upgraded. I've gotten all the cheapos and now I'm like, "Oh shit, now I gotta... Now I've committed, so now I have to start kinda getting the expensive ones." But like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: There's expensive, the like... There's like $100 cards and there's also like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: $30,000 cards. Those are not the ones...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That I'll ever be getting. I... To me, a complete deck is once I have everything that's like, uh, basically like $100 or less. Like after that, I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: "Uh, maybe for like a, like a 'treat myself day', I do something else." But I, I don't... I can't justify it. So, um... But I'm a little pissed. I was on eBay. No, I wasn't on eBay. I... There was a certain card I wanted. I found it on Mercari. Have you done Mercari?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, yeah. That's where I buy some of my Squishmallows. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So I found, uh, Pokemon... I... Really, that's like my backup place because I feel like a lot of people there kind of throw cards on there and it's like they're just cleaning out their brother's closet. And I actually really like it 'cause sometimes people don't know what they're selling, and so it's underpriced...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Which is fun. And now that I've said that, I can never use Mercari again, for anyone else who's like collecting cards. Um, and I found this card. It was, uh, like a first edition, in really good condition, and it was exactly the card that I needed to finish out like this one chunk of my set. And it was underpriced. It was like... I mean, it was still incredibly expensive for what I'm willing to pay. It was like a hundred-like-twenty dollars. Again, it's a card. I am aware of that like I feel grossed out with that. But it was $120 when anywhere else online, it... They start at like $600. And I was like, "Oh!" I was like, I feel like I could justify that with some girl math. Like, it's like it's basically free, right?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I feel like you're saying it's crazy, but like I don't know, like shirts are $120... Like it's not like, uh, everyone's listening like, "Holy shit," you know? I mean, I think if it's something that you're like collecting them and investing in them, I don't, I don't see it as like a...
Em Schulz: It, it, it's... Personally, I...
Christine Schiefer: And if you were like, "Oh, I just threw... Spent thousands on Pokemon cards," I'd be like, "Woah!" But...
Em Schulz: Well, personally, I, like... I get weird about it. Like I'm not even... I don't even really... I'm not totally concerned about what other people think about it. I... It's more like...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: I'm very... I'm... Also, I'm dating probably the most like practical money-smart person in the entire world, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, this is true.
Em Schulz: Not that she's openly shaming me, but I do know that we operate very differently. And every time I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Really proud to bring something home, I can see it in her eyes, she's like, "Why on earth did you do that?" [laughter] So uh, I think it's starting to eat at me where I'm like, I know where $120 could also go. But anyway, so I, I found this card. I've been wanting it for a long, long time. It's been like a... It's been a thing I've had my eye on for probably since we came back from tour.
Christine Schiefer: What card? Are we allowed to know?
Em Schulz: Um, it was a... It was a, uh, it was a Clefairy. A Clefairy. And it was... There's certain ones that are like misprints and they're the really expensive ones...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: 'Cause they're even more rare 'cause it was only one batch of them that...
Christine Schiefer: Like stamps.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so this had like a random like dot on it. I know it's so... Unless you care, you... It doesn't make sense. But there was like, um... There were two different misprints and one of them I actually truly just owned and somehow kept in good condition from childhood. I like found it in my own...
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: Original deck. And I was like, "Holy shit, I have like a... "
Christine Schiefer: That is the dream.
Em Schulz: And there was another one and I wanted to have both the misprints. So I... Anyway. Um, the reason I'm mad is because I go on Mercari, I see this thing that is like you know, under, underpriced, I buy it, and then the next day I wake up and it's supposed to be shipping and I'm gonna get all excited, and it says, "Refunded." And I went "The fuck? Why?"
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And there... I was like looking through like my history to see if there was any messages I missed, like if I was supposed to like fill, I don't know, fill something out. I have no fucking idea. And um, and it just... There was no reason at all. Totally refunded. And I went, "That's weird." So then I go back on... I'm like, "I guess I'm at square one. I'm just gonna go look around." I go...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Back on eBay, and Homeboy, I guess wasn't expecting any... Someone must have told him like, "Oh, that's actually really expensive.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fuck. Okay...
Em Schulz: Refunded it, and then the exact same person with the exact same username was on eBay, not Mercari...
Christine Schiefer: He got wise.
Em Schulz: And now it was selling...
Christine Schiefer: He got wise.
Em Schulz: He was selling it for $700. I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh!
Em Schulz: "Motherfucker!" I was like, "Who told you in the last 24 hours? Who told you? Who was in my way?"
Christine Schiefer: "Who the F told you?"
Em Schulz: Anyway, so um...
Christine Schiefer: That's... That's actually quite upsetting. I'd be... I'd be upset, too. I'd be like, "Really?"
Em Schulz: I... Yeah. It, it did... It did hurt.
Christine Schiefer: So close.
Em Schulz: So, anyway, I'll, I'll find her. I'll get her. So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe he won't sell it for $700, and then he'll be like, "Damn it. Alright. I guess I should just go back to the old price."
Em Schulz: Oh, and then someone else gets it for even, like for the same price I had with that, I'd be so mad.
Christine Schiefer: No, like you... No. On Mercari, you can like put like a tag, save like...
Em Schulz: Oh, I see.
Christine Schiefer: It'll, it'll like notify you so you can swoop in if it comes back, you know.
Em Schulz: Hmm. I love a swoop. I love a swoop.
Christine Schiefer: You just gotta swoop. You gotta... You gotta do it.
Em Schulz: Christine, you don't have to tell me twice. Here I go.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Here I go, here I go. Swoop, swoop.
Em Schulz: I think you mean, "Shoop, Shoop." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, I meant, "Swoop, swoop." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, I thought you meant the song, "Shoop," where she goes "Here I go, here I go, here I go again."
Christine Schiefer: I know. That's the joke. I said, "You gotta swoop. Here I go, swoop... "
Em Schulz: "You make me wanna swoop." Uh, that was hilarious. [laughter] It was a good joke. I just... It really... I am the only person who missed it early on. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks for making me feel better.
Em Schulz: Are you having a good day? This doesn't feel like you are. What's happening?
Christine Schiefer: No. Everything's happening. I... You know how I was covering BTK last week?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, so...
Em Schulz: Do people know that?
Christine Schiefer: I assume they know that. Weren't they listening to it?
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Oh, yes. Okay. Got it, got it, got it.
Christine Schiefer: Am I wrong?
Em Schulz: No you're right. You're right.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter] Well...
Em Schulz: My brain is apparently in another dimension. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, are you going backwards and I'm going forwards? That would be fun. Um... No.
Em Schulz: Oh, we can Benjamin Button from different directions and then we'll kiss.
Christine Schiefer: And I'll... [chuckle] Right. I'll be the elderly lady who kisses you on the forehead when you're an infant. That'll be adorable. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was so sweet. Okay, sorry. Keep going. I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No, basically, we had to have... Uh, as I was working on part two, uh, we had to have our security system come out and repair it because it wasn't working. So I'm doing...
Em Schulz: Oh, shut up.
Christine Schiefer: My notes, and there's a person in like... I mean, I'm not gonna go into details, but like there... Our security system is malfunctioning and they're in our house like and they go, "What's your passcode?" and I'm like, "Should I tell him? I don't know! Should I tell him? I don't know." And he's like just...
Em Schulz: It's almost like you need to like change it before he gets there so you don't have to tell him your actual one.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I thought that too. I was like, "Is there a way to like... " I don't know. I just was so paranoid because I'm like, "Man, this is really weird. Like I'm doing these notes about how, uh, Dennis Rader was a security salesman and installer, and now there's one right in front of me. It just felt very odd. And then today, we had people come inspect the heater, and apparently, our heater is leaking carbon monoxide and...
Em Schulz: Holy crap!
Christine Schiefer: Not, not leaking it into the house, thankfully, but they're like, "We... You have to sign this waiver that we told you not to turn on the heat." And I was like, "Okay." And they're like, "You can turn it on 'cause it's like 30 degrees here, but um, make sure that you have a carbon monoxide detector."
Em Schulz: But you... But you shouldn't. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was like, "Mother F-er." And they were like, "It'll be a month before the part comes in." Um, of course nothing's covered.
Em Schulz: Oh great. So in the dead of winter. Excellent.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Several thousands of dollars on, upon thousands and thousands of dollars. So, um...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's so many Pokemon cards.
Christine Schiefer: I know. So you know what, um, it's just one of those days, um, where everything just seems to be like malfunctioning and I'm like, "But why now? Why of all days right now?"
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: It's okay. There's worse things.
Em Schulz: You must have done something really rotten in another life.
Christine Schiefer: I must have. And honestly, um, I'm fortunate, you know. I'm sure people who lose heat and can't afford to repair it. That's... That's its own issue. I'm fortunate that we can you know, uh, pay for the parts and all that, but like, oof, it is a doozy of a price. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It hurts. It hurts. So that's what's happening. Um, anyway, I'm just... And then I'm just, I'm just still dealing with the sickness, baby sickness, um...
Em Schulz: Still? What's the update?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Uh, Blaise just texted me four seconds ago and said her fever's 102.7. Uh, she's really out of it and is just laying there on the couch. So...
Em Schulz: Ugh, poor thing.
Christine Schiefer: Things aren't good. [laughter] Help me. But I'm fine. It's all fine. I'm just so tired. But, you know what? I'm fine. Thank you for asking.
Em Schulz: Do you have room today? I... This is... It's like such a privileged question 'cause I, um, am childless, but do you get to nap at all today? Is there like a wiggle room where you could find nap time? No?
Christine Schiefer: Um, well no, 'cause we record during nap time. But...
Em Schulz: No, I mean like, do you get a nap time?
Christine Schiefer: I know, but like I could nap when she naps, you know, like they say, but...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's since we record. But it's fine 'cause I can't nap anyway, as you know. I don't know how to, so...
Em Schulz: It's honestly for the best if you've got a kid, I guess. Because I think I'd accidentally just, just fall asleep...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then like kids...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's happened.
Em Schulz: You know, setting the world ablaze.
Christine Schiefer: Like I slept on the floor of her, uh, nursery last night and woke up like, "Why am I so uncomfortable? Oh, I'm on the wood of the floor and I'm old now... "
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: "So it hurts." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh God. Well, do you need...
Christine Schiefer: And then she goes, "Hold my hand," and I'm like "Okay." So I just put my arm in...
Em Schulz: That's precious.
Christine Schiefer: And then lay there and fall asleep. Um...
Em Schulz: Do you need anything? You need, um, a compliment? Do you need to take three breaths? You can do three breaths again. No? You don't want that?
Christine Schiefer: You... You know what, let's do three breaths again.
Em Schulz: Yes! Okay, okay. Ready, everyone? Everyone listening, we're all doing our weekly three breaths, 'cause I know you're not breathing any other time. Okay. Ready? Go.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Imagine if Jack just wasn't paying attention and thought that was just like dead air and just cut it all and everyone's like "Huh. That's weird." [laughter]
Em Schulz: And now, if you have water by you, this is your weekly reminder to drink some water, your thirsty little rats.
Christine Schiefer: Have a... Have a sip. Um, I have my... Blaise got LimonCello water. LaCroix.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's a lemon-themed to pep my spirits up.
Em Schulz: I love when you feel peppy. I wish... By the way, I had a de-peppy, but, um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, me too. That has caffeine. Oh wait. Maybe I'll text Blaise to bring me some caffeine.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That, that, that'll... That's certainly the pep you're looking for. I don't know if your uncaffeinated drink is gonna give you anything. Um, speaking of...
Christine Schiefer: I just went... [laughter]
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I went to text Blaise. I'm like half... I'm like delulu today. I'm like half-alive. But I just went to text Blaise and I accidentally clicked "Em", you know, 'cause you're on the brain, and, uh, I'm... I just like scrolled up without thinking and the last three things you sent me, you sent me a picture of you at age 10, wearing a hat with a picture of you on it, on the, [laughter] the basketball team, then you sent me a picture of the word "team" spelled out in Scrabble letters and said, "I bet you would've made flyers like this to recruit people to your Scrabble squad." And then the next one goes from 3:42 AM and it's a YouTube [laughter] video called... [laughter] It's a YouTube video called, "When You Have to Finish Your Homework in Less Than One Hour, This Playlist is For You."
Em Schulz: Have you listened to it? It's just incredibly... It's like old, old, like old opera music, but it's like all very like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, the picture is like a man in like a old ass da Vinci painting of like the Last Supper. Like, [laughter] what's going on?
Em Schulz: It's very, very, um, like fast-paced opera music, so it's like...
[vocalization]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see, I see. It's like tension is building 'cause homework is due. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's a lot of, a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: I just love that at 4:00 in the morning, Em sends me like, "Hey, your homework's due in an hour. Here's a playlist." [laughter] I'm like, "What do you think I'm doing right now?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was me literally doing my notes for this uh, at 3:00 in the morning and going, "This is how I feel right now." And so I was just listening to, uh, I was just listening to a bunch of clamor. I don't know what else to call it, but it was...
Christine Schiefer: It's clamor. That's a good word for it. Like looking at the picture, I'm like, "It looks clamorous," [laughter] you know. Not glamorous, but clamorous.
Em Schulz: Clamorous.
Christine Schiefer: Um...
Em Schulz: By the way, that hat, um, that's the other reason why I drink because I've been trying so hard for weeks now... For people who don't know, if you follow me on Instagram, I mentioned it a while ago, but if you don't, this is your first time hearing it, I used to be on the YMCA basketball team when I was a kid. One of the things that you get if you have been on uh, a rec team, a lot of times they'll give you like your own like stat athlete card like, oh, you've got your own picture of you on a basketball card and when you flip it over, it says like your height and your weight and everything. Apparently, when you're younger, you can... When you get these cards, you can also purchase additional merch with the...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: The picture you got. It's essentially like your YMCA yearbook picture on the team and you can get other merch with that picture on it. Um, so apparently at some point, I was eight, so I was not in charge of the catalog at the time. Someone in my family bought me a hat with my basketball card on it. So I was going through pictures recently and I found a picture of me wearing a hat of me. And then I thought...
Christine Schiefer: Em tried to explain this to me before, like without all the context and I was just like, "What are you even... " Like, "There's a picture of me wearing a hat with a picture of me," and I'm like, "What is... What are you... What are you talking about?"
Em Schulz: Well, so now my new... My new plan is to take that picture and put it on a hat, and then...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Post a picture of me wearing a hat of a picture of me wearing a hat of a picture of me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And that's like all I want. And...
Christine Schiefer: And Em somehow thought that was gonna be... Like after we recorded last time, Em thought that was gonna be uh, a clearer story for me to understand. But now that I kind of get the context, um, I really adore it. And I don't even need the hat. I just want the pic... I want the trading card of you. Um...
Em Schulz: I do have a trading card left, so I can give you.
Christine Schiefer: I would... I would pay $600... Oh, never mind. I would pay for free on Mercari...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: To get that card.
Em Schulz: You mean [0:16:57.8] ____.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say I'd pay $600 and you said, "Oh, I have one," and I'm like, "I'm not giving you $600." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I think I've got one in my like my memory box. I've got quite a large memory box. So I can just...
Christine Schiefer: I need you to understand that I would pay... I would seriously pay big bucks for that. And, um, also, I love that like... I, I imagine most of us from the '90s kind of remember at least... Maybe it was just my mom, but, uh, I would always be like, "Can I have a hat and a thing and like my picture on something else?" and she'd be like, "Absolutely not. [laughter] Like we're not paying $40 for a baseball cap with your hat... Face on it."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. This is everything.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I just love that some kids out there did get to have that experience. And I'm like, man, the fact that it's still not in your...
Em Schulz: I like that...
Christine Schiefer: Possession is so tragic.
Em Schulz: Uh, I truly, I have no idea what happened to it and I don't... It was not of my choice because I remember loving the shit out of that. I thought like truly, I thought the girls were screaming for me with that hat on. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They might've been. They are now. Everyone looking at it is going, "Holy shit, that's amazing." So you probably...
Em Schulz: If I ever... If people can hype me up one day when I do get this hat of you know, the whole thing, I would really love to, to see some people go a little feral in the comments just because...
Christine Schiefer: Yo, I'm hyping you up right now. But yeah, you guys, come on, step it up.
Em Schulz: Just because like, you know, middle school me, I really thought like this is what's gonna get me my first date and obviously, that is not how the story went. So anyway, I'd appreciate it for to, to heal some, uh, old trauma. That'd be, that'd be nice.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I'm so deep and brooding. I'm such a bad boy. You don't understand. Just look at my hat.
Christine Schiefer: I love that, "My trauma is like, I didn't even get a hat [laughter] to put my face on it."
Em Schulz: I have worse trauma, if we'd like to unpack that separately. But I will say, looking back...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you meant than me. [laughter] I was like, "Go for it. Take it. I don't care. You can wear that badge." You mean worse trauma than the hat? Yeah...
Em Schulz: No, I just...
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry. I think we all believe that. I don't think any of us that...
Em Schulz: I just want to remember...
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately, I don't think any of us have that kind of experience as the worst of our trauma...
Em Schulz: I remember being so...
Christine Schiefer: And if we do, good for you.
Em Schulz: I remember being so confused why it, it wasn't the conversation starter I thought it was. I remember so vividly. And now, now I feel like at this point I'm bold enough to just go to people and be like, "This is unhinged, but this is probably the best thing you'll see all day. Look at me in my hat. And look at the hat. Take a closer look. Oh, oh, what's that you see? It's me again."
Christine Schiefer: I almost think that there's just an edge of irony to it now, though. You know, you're like, "I recognize how silly this is." I feel like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Back then, it was like "No, this is just badass." And maybe that's why it didn't hit as hard as you thought. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Penny dropper. Yeah, I thought it was like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I feel like maybe now it's like, wow, this is quirky and goofy and we can all appreciate...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: The style of the '90s. But back then it was like...
Em Schulz: That hat was... That hat was playing the long con. It was like, one day, it is gonna do magic for you, but not yet.
Christine Schiefer: Today is that day.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I hope so. Anyway, that, uh... That's another reason why I drink is 'cause getting that hat has been so damn hard to build 'cause there's so many colors on it. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: There's not a lot of places that do like, uh, iron-on or heat press for a hat. So anyway, we'll figure it out, folks. Christine and I have a story for you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God.
Em Schulz: Was that not fun? None of that? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No, I mean I... I, uh... What I meant is I need a distraction from everything else in life, so please regale me.
Em Schulz: If that hat wasn't a distraction, I don't know what to tell you. This is not gonna do it then. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, but I felt the conversation dying down and I thought, "Oh no, oh no, the darkness is creeping back in," and then you said, "Oh I have a story." I said, "Oh, thank God. Em's here to save the day. Pull me back from the brink."
Em Schulz: That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep, keep saying things like that to me. My, my ego will go places.
Christine Schiefer: I will. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, okay. So I have a story for you, super short today, um, compared to my usual stories, but I thought it was, uh, I don't know, not totally silly, but a little silly...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: If you're feeling up to it. Um, especially since your story I'm sure will give us all every sort of...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Heebie-jeebies. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, let's start with the softball, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So, this is the Augustine Steward House. I know you won't know what that is, but...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: I'll give dramatic pause anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So first thing I gotta tell you about this place, because I gave it a little quick Google search, she is crooked as hell. This house is bent. Like she's got... I don't know. Someone has to get...
Christine Schiefer: She's bent. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Someone has to do an X-ray on her. She's looking rough.
Christine Schiefer: Get bent, house.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, you say it. You tell 'em, Christine. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, can I see a picture? Could you send me a picture?
Em Schulz: I'm sending you a link right now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good, good. Is it like Leaning Tower of Pisa level, or is it...
Em Schulz: No, but she is like a little bit of a head tilt. She's definitely judging you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Oh, that, that actually gives me a headache, weirdly.
Em Schulz: It looks like an optical illusion.
Christine Schiefer: It does. I think I feel like I need to be like squinting at it. Uh, yeah.
Em Schulz: You know what, maybe she's not a head tilt, but she is a hand-on-the-hip lean.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's... That's a better way. It's sort of just like a lean, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She's swaying.
Christine Schiefer: Shifting.
Em Schulz: She looks like a tornado is coming through...
Christine Schiefer: Shifting.
Em Schulz: But it's actually a still day.
Christine Schiefer: She looks like she's had a couple White Claws, um, without eating breakfast. [laughter]
Em Schulz: She looks like Christine at CrimeCon 2018.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Okay. Well, actually, that would be the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It's the more accurate depiction of what I look like at CrimeCon, if we're being honest. But this house is...
Em Schulz: That was a...
Christine Schiefer: Me on most other evenings, [laughter] on a normal Tuesday.
Em Schulz: That was a deep cut. I'm sorry, Christine. But... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, there's photo evidence on Instagram. I'm sure people have witnessed it. It's rough.
Em Schulz: Not a single picture where both of your eyes are open.
Christine Schiefer: No. And usually I'm behind the bar where I'm not legally allowed to be. So it, it was a interesting time of our touring. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so anyway this house, I don't... I don't know... I don't know anything about construction. I don't know why she's tilting. I don't know what the deal is. I think it's just over time, maybe things are not as sound as they used to be. I don't... Not... I don't totally know. But if I would be worried as... I mean, it's in the middle of like a pretty walkable area...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You'd wanna hire a really good, um, what do you call it when... A house inspector before you moved in there...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To just really check the foundation on that thing.
Em Schulz: I... Yeah. I'd like it to be a, like uh, um, a marvel where like it actually is built perfectly sound, it just looks funky, but I don't think that's what's happening.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's probably doubtful. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, I would definitely... Like at what point... How far does it have to lean before people start getting worried and like they call on a contractor, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I worry that it's gonna lean by like a half a degree every year and people aren't even gonna notice until it's sideways and they're like, "Wait a second. Was it always like this?"
Em Schulz: It's like, "Wait a minute. When the wind blows, it blows." Yeah. Um, so anyway, she's crooked. I wanted to get that out of the way now because it was my favorite little fact about her.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Um, and this house is in Norwich in Norfolk, uh, England.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and it was originally built for, can you believe it, Augustine Steward, uh, as the Augustine Steward House.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I can't, I can't, I can believe it.
Em Schulz: Who is Augustine Steward, you might say? Uh, well, the three-time mayor of Norwich, and a merchant. And you know what really grinds my gears, Christine? I can't stand how many goddamn times when I'm talking about something from yesteryear, and people are a merchant. That's so... That's like... I feel like that's like, people today without a job saying they're an entrepreneur. It's like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, just tell me what you do. I'm over it. You know?
Christine Schiefer: "I'm in Bitcoin, you know? I'm a, I'm a Bitcoin merchant."
Em Schulz: "I'm in finance."
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm gonna say. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, I like... By, by finance, I mean, I like look at people on TikTok and finance...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I'm in finance.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm in crypto. And by that I mean, uh, Cryptozoology I listen to and that's why we drink. That's about as far as my crypto, crypto experience is.
Em Schulz: Wait, can we all start saying that now? I love that. I'm in crypto.
Christine Schiefer: I love it. Let's do it. We're in crypto...
Em Schulz: Wait, can we do a little... We do a...
Christine Schiefer: This is a crypto podcast.
Em Schulz: Imagine a shirt or something that says "I'm in crypto" and like it's a coin with like a Bigfoot in it.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Eva.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, I need to make sure that doesn't exist.
Em Schulz: Eva, write that down.
Christine Schiefer: Eva, write that down.
Em Schulz: "I'm in crypto and it's a cryptid situation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I typed in, "I'm in crypto", and now the internet's like, "You are? Well your ads are gonna change." I'm like, "No!"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The algorithm's like, "I've been waiting my whole life for this." Um, anyway, so Augustine Steward was a merchant. Use your imagination. Um, so then records say this house was built in 1549. Yowza.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And she's been leaning ever since. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: But parts of the house are also said to be... Have... To have been built decades earlier. So some of the house could be from like the 1400s. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: And there's been additions since, but I guess the... Her bones are pretty much from 1549.
Christine Schiefer: No wonder. My bones are, are crooked and I'm 30 years old.
Em Schulz: You know what, you make a great point. That's what my back would look like today getting out of bed. So yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Also, before anyone asks, I'm 32. Yeah, I know. [laughter] Don't remind me.
Em Schulz: But your brain doesn't know that, which means it's... We're in dangerous territory.
Christine Schiefer: It's a bad news. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Today this house is one of the most photographed buildings in Norfolk, and I wonder if that's because of her, her little lean.
Christine Schiefer: Could be.
Em Schulz: Um, but... Uh, also a fun fact here is that this house still has part of its medieval undercroft, and honestly, as an American...
Christine Schiefer: Hello?
Em Schulz: That's the first time I've ever said the word undercroft. It is, apparently, for people like me who don't know what that is, it's a cellar used as like a storage room.
Christine Schiefer: A cellar used as a storage room. Okay. So a basement. Got it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: A base... Yeah. See, that's what I'm thinking too. But now I'm gonna start calling the basement the undercroft because why the hell not.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for sure. I'm never going back. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Especially your basement. Your basement's an undercroft for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for sure. Yeah. If there was ever an undecraft... Is that what it is?
Em Schulz: Croft.
Christine Schiefer: Under what? Oh.
Em Schulz: Croft.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm thinking... Oh okay. Lara Croft. Undercroft. Okay, got it.
Em Schulz: Um, but yeah, your, your place... I mean... No comment. When, when you... Well actually, here's my comment. When you...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, "No comment bullshit. Here they go." [laughter]
Em Schulz: If you were to ever find yourself in a place that does not look like a residential home in a suburban neighborhood, you're probably in Christine's undercroft.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's really scary.
Em Schulz: It looks nothing like the rest. You come upstairs and the sun hits you in the eyes and you're like, "Where was I?" It's like...
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "Where have I been?"
Em Schulz: It's like a totally other land. It's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: It is. It's a... It's a scary place. Gio loves it down there.
Em Schulz: Uh... No, you know who's gonna love it? I say it every time. But it's gonna be your kid as a teenager. She's gonna make that place...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: The party pad. And I'm gonna help her, by the way. I will be the person who designs it, sets it up, makes it clean for her. I'm gonna be like that weird like hippie Hollywood relative who has a really distant relationship...
Christine Schiefer: God help me.
Em Schulz: But I come in and just really wow you, and then I disappear, you know.
Christine Schiefer: And everyone's like, "How are you related?" And then Leona's like, "I don't really know? They just show up sometimes."
Em Schulz: I'd be like, that's a secret. That's a secret. I would say... I would like give the answer in riddles and would be like, "Follow the attic and down to the undercroft."
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I'd regret, I'd regret asking. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like, "Never mind. I actually don't care."
Christine Schiefer: [0:28:31.4] ____.
Em Schulz: Um, so the house sits on top of an alley and this valley is very appropriately called Tombland Alley.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! Lara Croft Tombland Alley. Undercroft Tombland Alley.
Em Schulz: Did you just game the system? What just happened?
Christine Schiefer: I sure gamed it hard. Yeah. [laughter] It's what I did.
Em Schulz: "I'm in the mainframe, folks." Okay. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm in the mainframe. I'm in the undercroft.
Em Schulz: It's called to Tombland Alley. Tombland. Tombland. I don't know how it's actually pronounced, but it's called Tombland.
Christine Schiefer: Don't ask me.
Em Schulz: And it comes... It's before there... So it ends up becoming like uh, a very haunted place. But at the time, it was named that because that was old English for like an open area, and it was just describing the spot 1,000 years ago. It was just an open land, open, open space.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, and this alley sits on a former road that ancient Romans used to occupy England. So if we're thinking like how far back do the ghosts here go, you know, ancient, ancient Rome, um...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And uh, below the alley, there's rumors of there being a plague pit where there was a mass grave to toss in victims of the plague when burial demands got overwhelming and they didn't have time to handle one-on-one cases.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Um, so it actually ended up being incredibly appropriate. And I like to think they were originally going to put the plague pit somewhere else and they were like, "I know a place with the perfect name for that shit, but you gotta... Let's do all the logistics." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Christine's basement. Oh never mind. Sorry. That would probably also serve as a plague pit.
Em Schulz: Leona's hangout spot. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Leona's cool kids' club.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, my, my hangout spot, we called it the kids' club.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably what most kids call their hangout. [laughter] Just saying.
Em Schulz: Mine... I don't know. I'll have to show you pictures one day when I find that other picture of me and my hat and the picture of me and my hat and the picture of me and my hat. There are pictures of the kids' club and it was official. We had a test...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm not, I'm not saying your's wasn't cool. I'm just saying I think kids' club is a pretty um...
Em Schulz: Gasp. Christine, I know exactly what we're gonna do for our after chat today.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What? [laughter]
Em Schulz: This is so humiliating. So I'm really...
Christine Schiefer: Oh great. Okay, I'm in.
Em Schulz: I'm taking one for the team. This is actually probably the most embarrassed that anyone's ever gonna see me on the show. Um, I'm trying to figure out if I even wanna talk about it. So the kids' club, it was a real thing. It was a um, it was my mom's way of trying to give me a distraction during the divorce, and she was like, "Pick a room in the house, turn it into whatever like wild shit you want." It was essentially at my pre-troll hole. And um, we had a slide in there. We had icicle lights everywhere. We had a secret entrance. We had like all of this stuff in, in the basement. We even like had like a lock on the door and it was password-protected, this room, and like the password protection was a nine-year-old just saying like a silly word on the other side of the door. But um, I was really... We loved the kids' club. There was four of us as founding members, and all of us got together on the weekends and hung out in the kids' club.
Em Schulz: And we made this test for... Because other people were like... I... We told people at school about the kids' club and they were like, "I wanna join," and I went, "You gotta pass the test first." 'Cause I had heard somewhere that like initiations were important. And I have a copy of the test here...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And it's really, really, really stupid, and also like it's so obvious, like any therapist could take one look at it and go, "You clearly didn't want anyone to ever pass this test." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is it? You're like, you did not want to share your kids' club with any other kids.
Em Schulz: I think I... I wanted it to be like Club 33 elite. Like you just can't get in. It's like, I wanted it to be the new Skull and Bones. And I was like, "You... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Even at age like eight, you were fucking... Whatever age this was, you were already in your secret society bullshit.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. So I have... I still have a copy of the test. I will be fully embarrassing myself by reading aloud the questions to you, but...
Christine Schiefer: I get to take the test. I get to take the test. I get to fail out of kids' club.
Em Schulz: And not to say... I'm not trying to like make it that hard of a challenge for you, but nobody's ever passed the test, so... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I, I was gonna say, I already know. I... Listen, I'm excited to get rejected from kids' club. That's gonna be my, on my newest resume, you know. I feel like it's an honor I can't wait to achieve.
Em Schulz: It's about to be a real embarrassing after chat after this. So if anyone is not part of Patreon yet, please go join and then you can listen to me...
Christine Schiefer: You can all be... We're gonna be the kids' club rejects and we're gonna make an even cooler club that Em can't join. You know what I mean? It'll be great.
Em Schulz: Oh, that hurts my feelings and I, I deserve it. I deserve it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can enter the... At the end of the Disney Channel episode, you, you get to join... We join... We merge our clubs together. That's how this all ends, you know.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I see.
Christine Schiefer: Happy ever after. Um...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yes. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's a double kids' club. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That sounds good. That's... But first I have to take a sip of my own medicine, so um... And it's bitter, to be honest.
Christine Schiefer: It's not good. It's not good.
Em Schulz: Where were we? Tombs and plague pits. So uh, so anyway, below... So we're talking about... I'll just keep my facts straight again. We're talking about the uh, Augustine Steward house, and it sits on top of um, Tombland alley, Tombland Alley, which had a, uh, theoretically, or the rumors say that there was a big plague pit down there because, we've talked about it for the last several weeks, everybody, but the Bubonic plague hit England, wouldn't you know it.
Christine Schiefer: She's back.
Em Schulz: She's back. Uh, and so in this area specifically in Norwich, 76% of the population was wiped out.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Like, I gasp every time, because every time I'm shocked. [laughter] I, I just don't know how else to react.
Em Schulz: No, I... It's still... It's uh... I keep bringing it up and I'm still blown away every time. But I think the number was like, out of 25,000 people that lived there, only 6,000 people remained. So...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: It's said that um, the grave yard on Tombland Alley uh had to be completely raised to make room for new plague victims. So I'm assuming that means like they had to put bodies on top of bodies or... I honestly don't know... I don't know what that means, but it sounds bad. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Bodies and victims, nothing good can come of this.
Em Schulz: To raise a graveyard for more bodies. Yeah. So this is the protocol at the time, uh, because remember, I told you a lot of places were really strict about the Bubonic plague and like for the right reasons.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like they will fucking murder you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Literally, they... There are...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "You went to church, you asshole. We're hanging you outside." [laughter] Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: They were not fucking around. They were like, "Do not get us sick and you know, be with the people, not with yourself." So um, anyway, so they took it very seriously and they had this protocol, at least in this area of England, uh, that if there was a wave of the plague coming through, if people died in a house, the house would be boarded shut for 40 days, um, then they would also...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Uh, they would uh, paint a red cross on the door to warn people like, "Get the fuck away from this. This has been infested."
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: "And don't come near this house." Um the house was then re-opened and cleaned out after the fact, but items had to stay even longer because at the time, they really didn't know what was causing the plague.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And um, and so they were just kinda guessing. They were like, "Maybe it's still sitting in furniture and it's still like sitting in carpet."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So it was a lot of guess work. But they board up the place for 40 days and I guess let it simmer down, and then they would re-open it and clean it out, and then certain things that were more absorbent, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine this... So wait. Did the person... Okay, I'm such an idiot. Sorry. I was thinking this whole time they left the body in there, but you're saying they took the body out, and then close the house.
Em Schulz: Took the body out and then close the house.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay. I'm like, the smell must have been terrible. Okay.
Em Schulz: Oh no. It was...
Christine Schiefer: I understand. They took the body out, and then...
Em Schulz: Once they, once they had on record that a house had had a death, they would...
Christine Schiefer: I see. I see.
Em Schulz: Remove the body and then they would do this whole thing.
Christine Schiefer: The cross thing on the door is creepy as fuck. Like that's really biblical. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I wonder like, when I hear a cross, especially painted red, I think Red Cross and it looks like a plus sign. But do they mean religious cross? I don't know. Probably.
Christine Schiefer: Uh they probably just meant like a red X or like a red cross... Uh they probably didn't mean a religious one. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Maybe, maybe someone...
Christine Schiefer: Probably just meant like, "Stay away."
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, like an, like an X like, "Do not... "
Christine Schiefer: Like an X, yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why I say this with such confidence.
Em Schulz: I'm pretending like you're my like time travel escort. I have no idea.
Christine Schiefer: I love of when you pretend like I know what I'm talking about in your story. It makes me feel really smart. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Christine, I think you're like... I think you're so smart and uh, this is just some...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: This is just a moment where you deserve a compliment. In general, I think you're so smart. So when you say something...
Christine Schiefer: The historians are like, "Let me just step in here 'cause Christine's full of shit." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm also the person who thought I was gonna tell you about the back rooms, and then taught you like intergalactic space. So you know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but like, who can do that? Only Em. [laughter]
Em Schulz: No. Only neurodivergent people with a 3:00 AM hyper-fixation. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Who listen to like opera, like high-sped opera on YouTube. [laughter]
Em Schulz: As I'm like becoming Neil deGrasse Tyson overnight. [laughter] So anyway, they would re-open the house, clean through it. And in the 1500s, this was 1578, the plague came through the town once again, and there was a kerfuffle about it because the queen had recently been there and a bunch of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. The, the queen had come and that also brought in a lot of tourists, so it created a bit of a scandal of like, "Did the queen fucking bring us the plague?" Like...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And like... Or,"Did... Did... Was it visitors? But like someone from the outside came in and, and did this to us."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So uh this event is often blamed on the, the event of the queen coming is what's usually blamed on the next outbreak, which lasted through the summer. And the last family to live in this Augustine Steward house, uh, they... 'Cause I think after this family, nobody else lived in the house. So yeah. Okay. So in the 1500s, the last family was there, the plague is going on, and one by one, everybody starts dying in this house. And there was a mom, a dad and a daughter. And the daughter was a little girl. Um, so... And then I, I guess maybe there were some other people. There's different versions of the story where other people were staying with them. But one by one, people stop coming out of the house every day and people notice and it's assumed that they all died in their home.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So authorities come in to do their whole protocol, um, but something gets mixed up in the messages where they thought the people who bring out the dead had already shown up and they, as we predicted...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I knew it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Started, started boarding up the house with the bodies inside.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. Okay.
Em Schulz: As you said it, I was like, "Motherfucker, Christine figured it out."
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. [laughter] Oh no.
Em Schulz: So as you thought, yowza, the smell had to be crazy. It was three decomposing bodies for 40 days, right?
Christine Schiefer: Horrifying.
Em Schulz: It was over a month.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Right.
Em Schulz: And so authorities show up to re-open the, the building, which I can't imagine their conversations on the way there of like, "Oh, well at least it's clean now," and it's like actually, has... It's so much worse.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like it's so weird, the closer we get, the worse it smells. That doesn't, that doesn't make sense.
Em Schulz: I know. I know. So they're uh, opening up the house, they find out, holy shit, there's two bodies on the floor in this house, and it's the, the husband and the wife.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, on the floor.
Em Schulz: And they go... They go up to the, the bodies and they realize that the bodies have large human-sized bite marks in the bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh no. Oh no.
Em Schulz: When they go up, when they go upstairs and they end up finding the little girl's body, 'cause she also ended up dying in the house, they find human flesh in her mouth.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And this is when they realized that she was still alive after her parents...
Christine Schiefer: Em, what fuck?
Em Schulz: And this, this, this is the, the main version of the story that, that people know...
Christine Schiefer: That's so fucked up.
Em Schulz: Is that she got boarded up inside the house and was probably too small...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus...
Em Schulz: Or maybe weak from the, weak from something, and she couldn't call out for help, or nobody heard her while they were boarding up the house and she got stuck in there with her dead parents and ate them.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Another version of this says that uh, there was actually still a bite of human flesh stuck in her throat and it's assumed that she actually just died from choking and never actually had any signs...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck's sake.
Em Schulz: Never actually had any signs of the plague. She just died consequent, consequentially from, from that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Great, cool.
Em Schulz: There are less horrifying versions of the story, but the main one people have heard is the cannibalism one, 'cause of course...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Some people think that uh, what's even eerier about this is that when the plague... When people would get the plague, it was common that they would end up getting uh, buboes, which was essentially like lymph, swollen lymph nodes. And the girl didn't show any of those, didn't show any signs of having gotten the plague. It's almost as if she lived with two people who died from the plague and somehow didn't catch it. Apparently for centuries, there was actually a very few people who had a genetic resistance to the plague, and it's thought that maybe she was one of them, and she only died from starvation or choking on her parents.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's fucking... Choking on her parent... Okay, that's the world's worst sentence, like bar none. Bar none.
Em Schulz: Um, another version, uh, is that all of them were still alive while boarded, while the house was getting boarded up, but they were all weak from the plague and couldn't call out for help, and so they watched themselves get boarded and, and then they starved to death.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, great. So they're just all fucking terrible. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like the Titanic when they all just kinda start holding hands and just looked around.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like, "This is our fate," I guess. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Another version is a young woman uh, who was either boarding there or worked for them in some way, she was also sick in the house and she starved to death alongside the girl, and now both the young girl and that young woman are said to haunt the space. So you could... You have two chances of seeing a ghost. I don't know where the hell the parents went, but people have not really seen anything of them.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, so anyway they're... Both the young girl and the young woman are said to haunt the Augustin Steward House, as well as the nearby streets of Tombland Alley. The whole area is just known to... You have a chance of seeing either of them at any moment. And the girl appears in the alley a lot. She appears in the house. She appears in the graveyard at the nearby church. She really seems to just be like the damn councilwoman of this...
Christine Schiefer: She probably get... She probably... First of all, she deserves to be. Second of all, I feel like she can finally get out of the house, so she's gonna get out of the house, you know.
Em Schulz: Right? I feel like that's... I also feel that way of like, "Well, fuck, why on earth would I keep staying here?" But also, why would you keep staying here, you know?
Christine Schiefer: No, no. Anywhere. Yeah, exactly. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just go, girl. Be free.
Christine Schiefer: Go home... Go be free.
Em Schulz: Um, she is often seen in ragged gray clothes and her legs have faded away below the knee, so it looks like she's floating a lot of the time. She is also known to, in the house specifically, to open and close doors, move items around and makes people feel like someone is standing way too goddamn close, um, which I love that she's just like on your ass like for no reason. Like...
Christine Schiefer: She's just like in everybody's business now that the plague is over and she can.
Em Schulz: Now that she can breathe near you and not worry about getting the plague.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: But yeah, she's apparently all up on you. It's like, you could be anywhere in the cosmos and you're picking right next to my fucking face? Get away from me.
Christine Schiefer: Right by my face. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, the young woman is also said to be wearing gray. She is known as the Gray Lady. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Hey.
Em Schulz: And she wanders the alley for eternity. Yikes. I can't imagine.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: Um, one time she was seen entering a church, and then she made her way through the entire church and exited out of permanently locked doors to go back to the alley.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And so there's no, there's no way anyone else could have opened the doors, but they saw her, I don't know if she opened the door or like walked through the door, but she did it when no one else can.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see. Okay.
Em Schulz: She's also known um... Well, the house... I'll start here that the house has lived many lives at this point. It's been a coffee shop. It's been a book store. It's been an antique shop. I mean, it's hundreds of years old. It was even recently an escape room, it might still be.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: Um, and one of the rooms was based on the ghosts of that house, which I love.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up! That's crazy. That's actually terrifying to be in a haunted house playing a game about the people who died there. Yikes.
Em Schulz: It's like, it's the fun version, 'cause I think this part is a little uh, tasteless, but I've heard of like houses that, where people have been killed, then you host murder mystery parties.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. That's no good...
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's not the vibe I want.
Christine Schiefer: Don't do that. No, no.
Em Schulz: But I love an escape room about ghosts because it's a fun thing about an alleged thing. You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Right. True, true, true. It's not like uh, we're joking about the murder, ha-ha. It's like, you know, this is...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The lore of this particular building.
Em Schulz: It's like ghosts might not even be real, so this is all probably fine. Um...
Christine Schiefer: It's a better... It's definitely a better angle in my mind. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It reminds me a lot of the Alton Towers that we talked about a while ago, because they had a roller coaster...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, theme park? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh they had a roller coaster about the ghosts that haunt that...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, that's pretty cool.
Em Schulz: I love when people own it. I... You know what I fucking... You know what, I'm, I'm just so mad at everyone today, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Woah, woah, woah!
Em Schulz: You know what gets me? You know what really gets me?
Christine Schiefer: What gets... What gets you? What grinds your gears? You tell me.
Em Schulz: It's when we stay at hotels, we stay quite a lot, and I look them in the eye and I say...
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: "You tell me, is this place haunted?" And then I even told them...
Christine Schiefer: And I stand behind Em and I go, "Ask them, ask them, ask them, ask them. Tell them I didn't I tell you to."
Em Schulz: And I'll even say, I'm like, "By the way, if the answer is yes, that's a good sign for me. Like you're not gonna steer me away."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not, we're not gonna like leave, right.
Em Schulz: "I'm not hoping you'll say no. I'm hoping you'll say yes. Like, just lie to me. Just lie." Like... And they'll go... They'll be all fucking fishy. What was the one... What was the big fancy, beautiful one?
Christine Schiefer: Uh...
Em Schulz: With the butler.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: The Pfister?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Was it the Pfister? Which is weird. Isn't that...
Em Schulz: Which is like the... Yes, it's like notoriously haunted. And they're like, "Well, we can't say anything. We don't know." And I'm like, "That, by the way, sounds like a... "
Christine Schiefer: "We've never experienced anything."
Em Schulz: That's a guilty fucking omission. Like that's, "Well, I don't... "
Christine Schiefer: But that's probably why... Like I mean, listen, I'm not down for anyone losing their job. They probably have to say that. They probably wish they could tell you, you know.
Em Schulz: I know, but I've been, I've been like, "Just blink, blink, just blink if... "
Christine Schiefer: Blink. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "Blink at all. Breathe."
Christine Schiefer: What if they're worried you're a secret shopper, a secret hotel guest, and you're gonna like report that to management?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm like, I'm like intel, and I'm like, "If you blink, you're gonna get fired."
Christine Schiefer: We... By the way, we look like the least qualified... Like we roll in, in like Crocs and like whatever the fuck. They're... They definitely don't think we're like secret shoppers, but...
Em Schulz: No, but we're... That's the point though, is that we're hidden so in plain sight.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Maybe we're so unlike what they're expecting that they're like, "We don't wanna tell these bozos anything about these ghosts."
Em Schulz: I feel like... Uh, I, I just... I hate, I hate when, especially like The Pfister, when it's notoriously haunted. So like how dare you...
Christine Schiefer: And it's like we all know. We all know.
Em Schulz: Maybe one thing, if I write an article about like The Hilton and like it... Nobody knew of it as like this big haunted place. If I was like, "Oh, I've heard it's haunted by like a random source... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Maybe one thing if they were kinda like, "Oh, I don't know. I don't, I don't know about that," for me. But if a place is on listicle after listicle of like top 100 haunted places on earth...
Christine Schiefer: You're right. And you've done research on it personally.
Em Schulz: Yes. I'm like, "Don't... Please do not patronize me. Like at least say you heard about the ghosts." Like...
Christine Schiefer: Now you sound like me. "Don't patronize me. I know there's a ghost too."
Em Schulz: I think it's also because any time I've asked that question, it always to someone at the front desk who's a man and I'm like, "You have to be kidding me." Like I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Why did I even waste my time asking you?" Okay.
Christine Schiefer: "Why would I waste my time on you, a man?"
Em Schulz: "Unless you're the butler, my digital butler who brings me cake... "
Christine Schiefer: The digital butler brought you cake and that...
Em Schulz: "Out of simple text."
Christine Schiefer: The second you said, the one with the butler, I was like, "Oh God, the chocolate cake digital butler that Em found at The Pfister." Em, Em recovered nicely when that was an option, and recovered from the rejection of the front desk pretty quickly, so it's okay.
Em Schulz: I did. Well, I think they probably... Maybe the digital butler is like their, their big red nuclear code button of like, "Uh-oh. Someone's mad."
Christine Schiefer: "Emergency, bring them cake."
Em Schulz: "Send them the butler."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, okay. Anyway, so uh, I don't know how we got there, but...
Christine Schiefer: I, I certainly don't.
Em Schulz: Okay. So I'm about to be done here, but I just wanna say in 1973, this area... Oh, 'cause it was a bunch of places, and then escape room and blah, blah, blah.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: In 1973, it was the like, uh, visitor center, like tourist information spot, and during this time a visitor said, "Oh, I just saw like uh, a lady in gray in the alley," and people lost their minds, it hit the papers, and uh, people began speculating, who on earth is this ghostly gray lady? And people thought maybe it was Augustine Steward's house, maybe it was one of his wives throughout his life, maybe it was a nun at the nearby church or at the graveyard who like was on her way home. Maybe it was the steward seamstress. It's apparently the seamstress.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, they don't know... Or she could be like a border. She could have been someone who is not related at all, and through like the blueprint theory, maybe she lived there before they did or was on the property in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Maybe she's a Roman.
Em Schulz: Maybe she's an ancient Roman. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Just trap... Traipsing on through.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And she's just invading the city. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: With their little gray dress.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She was on her off day. She was just frolicking. Um, in the '80s and '90s, there was a night club next door to this place, and the DJ heard some weird noises and ended up finding a woman dressed in gray. And he tried to talk to her, but she ignored him and uh, left the room. And when he turned to look at her again, she was gliding away and had no bottom half.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Yikes. Uh, the... When I think about myself in that situation, I... My first thought would be like, "Oh, I need... Like they're falling. I need to help." And it's like... I, I don't know why that's my first thought, but I feel like, I feel like everyone else just kind of stay stunned. I would feel like, "Oh, there's clearly air between you and the floor. You're about to timber. Lke I'm, I'm gonna get you." No?
Christine Schiefer: But... But no, 'cause you wouldn't see their legs, right?
Em Schulz: I think I wouldn't even notice the no legs. I think I'd be like, "You're mid-air, like which means you're gonna [0:53:05.5] ____."
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: But you're head's still at a normal height.
Em Schulz: I don't know if I have more than a split second to think about logic, but um, I am just trying to bond with you about what my experience would be.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Listen, I believe you. I just am trying to understand. Okay. So...
Em Schulz: I think I'd try to scoop her up. I wouldn't even realize that she was not fully there, or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Oh, look out," and then...
Christine Schiefer: You know how I feel about torsos, so I just can't even wrap my head... I'd be like out of there, out of there.
Em Schulz: I understand. I, I like... May, maybe me too, but also maybe... I don't know what I would do. I do think if I saw...
Christine Schiefer: I like to think you would be heroic.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: And try to catch her.
Em Schulz: I would try. And you know what, I'd end up just traumatizing myself 'cause I'd be like, "She just evaporated in my hands. What the hell was that?"
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "I tried to save her." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, so anyway, people are trying to figure out who she is. People have, have all these theories but nobody really knows. Their... The only main lore people hear about is that she was in the Steward's home around the time they also died.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And since a lot of the... 76% of the population or something went away. It's a good guess that she died from the plague. But...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: To this day, tourists and locals still report seeing the gray lady and the little girl near the Augustine Steward House, also in the general Tombland Alley. And the girl seems to be more of an intelligent energy 'cause she's like opening doors and playing tricks on people, whereas the gray lady has always seemed residual like on the blueprint, on, on, a blueprint.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So um, anyway, those are the two main ghosts of the area and that is uh... That's Augustine Steward House.
Christine Schiefer: Man. I just wonder... Good job, first of all. But I also...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Just wonder when it's something like, "Oh, we don't know who this lady was, or what her deal is," like I just so want some psychic mediums to come in and like figure out why this woman is playing this route over and over, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah, like where's your coffee?
Christine Schiefer: I tip.
Em Schulz: See, I'm not... I, I mean, obviously I'm very uh, pro-medium, psychic, all this stuff, but I do wonder, how do we have so many ghosts that we don't know anything about, with so many people who have an ability? I... Like I, I don't... Not in a judgy way. I just... I try to wrap my head around like, how many ghosts are there? I feel like every place I've ever covered is, "We don't know." But someone had to have been there that could have gotten some intel for us.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they don't wanna tell you, you know.
Em Schulz: Maybe they don't wanna tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe psychic mediums just haven't opened up there, you know. They're just like...
Em Schulz: Maybe she was like a brooding teen. She's like, "Don't look at me, don't look at me," you know. She like just doesn't even... She doesn't want the attention, but she kinda loves that she's the main character and like that's all she...
Christine Schiefer: She just keeps walking past.
Em Schulz: She... And she's thinking, "Don't turn around, don't turn around or you'll lose it. Don't turn around or you'll lose the confidence." I do think that like there has to be one ghost out there who always dreamed of being the main character, and now every day people are like desperately searching for them and...
Christine Schiefer: Like now it's in the newspaper, you know, that somebody...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Like you made it, girl.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Girl, good for you.
Em Schulz: Good for you. Anyway, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what her story is.
Christine Schiefer: Very good. Very good. I mean, that was one of the most upsetting things I've ever heard about that child eating her parents, but you know, the rest was great.
Em Schulz: Again, just, just a fun urban legend. There's no actual evidence of it, but that's...
Christine Schiefer: That's uh... That is comforting.
Em Schulz: It's what the kids say. It's what the kids say, so...
Christine Schiefer: At least we can say to ourselves, "You know what, maybe it didn't really happen that way." Um...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And spare, spare ourselves the nightmares. But...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately, I'm gonna bring you more nightmares 'cause we all know why we're here to... Why we're gathered gathered here today.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To celebrate, not love...
Em Schulz: Hell.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Hell. Um, we are doing Dennis Rader part two. I would like everyone who has not heard the first half to please listen to that first because you're not gonna under... I mean, you're gonna understand, but...
Em Schulz: And maybe take three more deep breaths, [laughter] 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. First of all, take a breath. Second of all, take a sip of water. Third of all, go listen to part one first 'cause you're gonna need it. Okay, let's just dive right in. The last thing... Let me see, what was the last thing I talked about? Um...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I talked about, uh, the poem he wrote...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: To the newspaper, uh, that they thought was a classified [chuckle] Valentine's ad. Um...
Em Schulz: Yowza. Shirley Locks or Shelly Locks?
Christine Schiefer: Shelly... Yeah, Shirley Locks. Uh, see? You got it.
Em Schulz: I got it.
Christine Schiefer: Nailed it. Uh, and he was angry that his letter didn't stir a reaction, so he wrote a letter to the news saying, "Hey, how many people does a guy have to kill around here to get my name in the paper or some national attention?" Uh, so really just playing his... He was like showing his hand that he just wants attention. Um, and he also, with that, suggested a list of potential nicknames, our favorite being, I think, the "Poetic... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Killer" or whatever the fuck.
Em Schulz: Some... Something that made zero sense.
Christine Schiefer: Something that was not clever. Um, so after that, um, the police warned the public that this man was dangerous. There was a serial killer on the loose and he would strike again. And it seemed like Dennis's reign of terror, uh, suddenly abruptly stopped. He went quiet for eight years. And, uh, let's get into part two now.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So after killing Nancy Fox in 1977, Dennis seemed to take time to cool off, like I said, for several years, but that was not actually quite the truth because two years after Nancy Fox in April 1979, Dennis actually attempted to find his next victim, who was 63-year-old Anna Williams.
Em Schulz: 63? Has he done this to someone older before?
Christine Schiefer: Um, I don't believe... I believe this is the oldest, uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That he has targeted so far. Yep.
Em Schulz: Was he... I don't mean to um, immediately jump in and take away you answering things... Uh okay. Does he have an age preference, or is it just like anyone?
Christine Schiefer: So he definitely targets women, first and foremost, um, but as with the Oteros, he will actively kill people who are also just there, like collateral damage, almost.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Um, but the sexual thrill he gets from, uh, binding and torturing women and seeing their fear, um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And children, I will say, because, you know, from Josephine Otero, who was 11, and he claimed, "Oh, I like women. I'm attracted to women with brown hair and... " Ugh, God. Sicko.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so this is the first, uh, 63-year-old, but he does have quite a range of, um, of ages that he targets. But typically, the main target is women that he believe he can, uh, break into their home.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Does that make sense?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So he targets 63-year-old Anna Williams. He broke into her house while she was away at a square dance. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why that makes me laugh.
Em Schulz: If it weren't so sad, that, the comedy just writes itself there.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It's, it's just one bright spot in a terrible whole story.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But Anna was running late. He knew she was supposed to be coming home because remember, he stalks his victims, he knows their routines. And so he's lying in wait inside her darkened home, but Anna is running late. She actually had stopped to visit her daughter on her way home. And this is, as far as we know, the only time this really happened, he got impatient and just got up and left.
Em Schulz: Oh. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So, by the time Anna came home that night, she went to bed like normal, had no fucking idea that a serial killer had waited all evening...
Em Schulz: It's one of those moments where like...
Christine Schiefer: In her home.
Em Schulz: It's one of those moments where now now every time I'm, I feel safe, I'll be like, "But was I... Did I just miss it?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I already do that. But yes, I think that's very relatable. It's like, "I feel comfortable. What's wrong?" Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she had no idea a serial killer had been hiding out in her house waiting for her until roughly two months later when Dennis mailed Anna some of her own personal belongings that he had taken from inside her house.
Em Schulz: Eww. He still found a way to be so violating.
Christine Schiefer: Yes! Yes!
Em Schulz: And also now she has to panic about like...
Christine Schiefer: He can't help himself.
Em Schulz: Unless he wrote a note that I don't know about, it's like, now she has to be paranoid about like, "Was this from like three days ago, or a year ago? Or like does he come here regularly? Was this one time? Is he here right now?"
Christine Schiefer: That's a good point.
Em Schulz: Like, it's the... It's... I mean the same type of energy of like, if you come home and someone broke into your house and you're like, "It could happen again. Are they still here?"
Christine Schiefer: And you're like "Are they still here?" Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Em Schulz: So talk about chilling. Um, he sent her her own belongings from the house two months after he had broken in. And I presume two months later maybe because then enough time has passed that probably there's no evidence they can really find, you know, like his fingerprints were probably wiped off or what, whatever might have been there is... He put some distance between it. But along with the items, he also sent to Anna a special poem.
Em Schulz: Oh, for fuck's sake. What? God, I'm already mad.
Christine Schiefer: And he sent it... And he sent it [laughter] to the media as well. The title of the poem is "Oh, Anna, Why Didn't You Appear?"
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's fucking creepy as shit. So I'm gonna read it to you. "Oh, Anna, why didn't you appear? T' was perfect plan of deviant pleasure so bold on that spring night. My inner feeling hot with propension of the new awakening season. Warm with inner fear and rapture, my pleasure of entanglement, like new vines at night. Oh, Anna, why didn't you appear? Drop of fear, fresh spring rain would roll down from your nakedness to scent, to lofty fever that burns within. In that small world of longing, fear, rapture and desperation, the game we play fall on devil ears, fantasy spring forth, mounts to storm fury, then winter clam at the end. Oh, Anna, why didn't you appear? Alone now in another time span, I lay with sweet enrapture garments across most private thought, bed of spring, moist grass, clean before the sun, enslaved with control, warm wind scenting the air, sunlight sparkle, tears in eyes so deep and clear. Alone again I trod in pass memories of mirrors and ponder why for number eight was not. Oh, Anna, why didn't you appear?" And...
Em Schulz: So he did, he did up his game from the last poem of...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: "Roses are red, violets are blue".
Christine Schiefer: Uh, a little bit.
Em Schulz: But that's...
Christine Schiefer: A little bit. There were a lot of spelling errors in there, I will say. Um...
Em Schulz: I'm sure he nailed spelling "propension", um, and "entanglement", but...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Entanglement.
Em Schulz: But that... Oh, I see... Okay. I don't know exactly what he said. I feel like if I could... If I read it, I could dissect it a little faster, but that was a lot to process at once.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of... Also it's a lot of just like blabbering like...
Em Schulz: What... What? Are you kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. Hard to believe. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um... I did hear him say like she was supposed to be number eight? Does that mean he's admitting...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: To seven deaths?
Christine Schiefer: I believe so, yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I believe so. I'm terrible at math. Um, so I...
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: But I believe that.
Em Schulz: Eight minus one is seven, girl.
Em Schulz: I know, but I'm saying I'm terrible at like [chuckle] going back in my mind and adding up all the ones that we've covered from last week.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm like... I, I know what eight minus one is. Um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. I could just say, does... Uh, he... She's supposed to be eight, so there's seven and you went, "I'm really hard with numbers. I don't... " [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I meant like I don't know if there are seven 'cause I'm trying to remember like how many...
Em Schulz: I understand.
Christine Schiefer: There were in each... 'Cause you know...
Em Schulz: I got you, I got you.
Christine Schiefer: With survivors and all that. But I'm assuming this was admitting to the eighth. Um, so yeah. Very disturbing to receive this in the mail and think, "Oh good, this man was waiting for me in my home uh... "
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "While I was at square dancing one day."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So another person, finally, thank God, has escaped uh, his wrath. But he mails this out and of course, the media gets a hold of it. And at the time, Wichita only had six homicide detectives, and a retired detective later said in an interview, "We looked at the boxes and boxes of evidence and thought we're never going to be able to get through all of it."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it just felt like such an uphill battle. So they followed every lead they had but continued to come up with nothing. And in 1979, two of those detectives were actually promoted, and because of that, they were taken off the case. So whatever like tenuous grasp they already had on Dennis Rader was now even more tenuous. It was slipping.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So years passed and Dennis was quiet, uh, but detectives and the public alike, uh, you know, lived with that constant knowing that the serial killer was still out there. Even if he wasn't making headlines every day, uh, he was still lurking. And so people still lived with that fear. Then in 1984, a new task force formed to tackle the case and they called themselves the Ghostbusters. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Sure. Okay. Sure. Let's, let's see where it takes us. Okay. No judgement.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So the Ghostbusters organized all of the evidence in the killings and eventually gathered DNA samples, which at the time was a promising new forensic technology. God, if only they knew how tremendously helpful DNA evidence would become. I mean...
Em Schulz: I like...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure some people knew, but...
Em Schulz: I'm sure there are some like newspaper articles where people are still a little afraid of like advanced technology...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And they're like, "I don't know, this thing's just gonna put names on... It... They're just gonna pick a name and you'll be a killer."
Christine Schiefer: "They're gonna have my... They're gonna clone me and I... " Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure there was a lot of that, definitely. Um, but they were able to at least get a few DNA samples, um, which was great news, but you know, they still were in the '80s. There was still not much they could do in the way of, uh, getting a profile, as far as DNA profile at least. In April 1985, Dennis killed again for the first time in like eight years. So...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The better part of a decade, he has been laying low. He tried with, uh, with Anna, but obviously, thankfully, that didn't happen. So as far as we know, he killed again for the first time, uh, since the '70s. So 53-year-old Marine Hedge lived in the Park City suburb of Wichita, incidentally, a few doors down from Dennis Rader and his family.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. So easy target.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, but also really risky, right?
Em Schulz: Tougher target. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause she's right down the street and knows you, you know.
Em Schulz: But also... Well, yes. Also, I imagine the cops are gonna like knock on every door and be like, "Do you know anyone who didn't like her?" But...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. It feels like you're just like honing in.
Em Schulz: Uh, but is like his MO not to be like so narcissistic and one thing he could get away with it, but to desperately wanting to like be involved in this crime and like...
Christine Schiefer: You're right. You're a 100% right. And also like desperately loves the feeling of like being someone...
Em Schulz: The chase.
Christine Schiefer: Well, being someone that like people trust, like his neighbor who sees him every day...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then like turning on them and making their, you know...
Em Schulz: But you know what, it's the perfect setup for him to bring the, the party to him, gross, but I don't know the, another phrase for that, but he... Because he knows that now he gets to sit in his own home and neighborhood and hear everyone around him talking about it for the next few days.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Yeah, you're onto it 'cause that is definitely what happens. [chuckle] So...
Em Schulz: Like he has to be eating it up. Like he finally gets to hear...
Christine Schiefer: The power trip.
Em Schulz: And for, for being so rejected the first time from the newspaper where nobody talked about it, he thought it was gonna make waves, like all...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: There are all these times where like it fell flat for him and he's like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: "If I game the system and I literally bring the death here, nobody can not talk about it."
Christine Schiefer: You're like forcing... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're forcing your family or neighbors to, to discuss it right in front of you. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's a really good point. So Marine was a very kind woman. She was a widow. Uh, she shared the block with the Raders for 30 years. So he has known her for 30 years.
Em Schulz: Oh. So it's his friend.
Christine Schiefer: It's basically like an acquaintance, like an, like a, like a neighbor that you are familiar with, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wouldn't say they're friends, but they're friendly, definitely. And...
Em Schulz: They're constants.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And his kids also knew her. And we know this from his daughter, Kerri, who has said you know, "We would wave hi to her every day when we passed on the sidewalk." Like, "We saw this woman all the time."
Em Schulz: Oh, so sad.
Christine Schiefer: It is. So on April 27th 1985, Marine was eating dinner with her boyfriend, and then they decided to play bingo [chuckle] throughout the evening.
Em Schulz: Precious.
Christine Schiefer: The whole time, they were unaware that Dennis was already inside her home, waiting for her.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh, fuck. I don't know why I didn't see that coming.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but it's... Every time it makes my blood run cold. So there's a website, uh, called survivingbtk.weebly.com that, um, does a really good job outlining all the different, um, uh, the victims and how Dennis Rader went about each of these crimes. So I'm gonna paraphrase from their site, uh, because they just put so much detail in. So basically, here's how the [chuckle] timeline went down. Dennis Rader, his son was in the Cub Scouts, he was at a Cub Scout camping trip. Some say meeting, some say camping trip, but most sources I've heard was a camping trip. And he told everyone he had a headache, he needed to go get some medication, so he left, went to his car. He was near a bowling alley, so he went inside the bowling alley, bought a beer, swished the beer around in his mouth, and then spit it out, purposefully spilled some of the beer on his clothes. He wanted people around to see him drinking a beer, like I guess as an alibi.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he poured it on his shirt. [chuckle] Next time I...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Spill on myself, I'm just gonna say it's my alibi. I don't know. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Right, right, right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He then... 'Cause his car was parked there, he then called a cab pretending to be drunk and told the driver to take him home to Park City, 'cause remember, he lived there.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Once he got to the neighborhood, he got out of the cab and instead of going home, walked to Marine's house. He saw her car and assumed she was home, so he cut the phone line like usual, and he quietly opened her back door to sneak in. Now, what he didn't realize is no one was actually home at that point, so instead he waited in her bedroom until he saw a car pull into the driveway, and that's when Marine and her boyfriend walked into the house with big plans to play bingo, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Rader waited in the bedroom closet until 1:00 AM when the man left.
Em Schulz: Wow. What the hell happened to his kid at the Boy Scout situation?
Christine Schiefer: He just told them, "I'm... I have a headache. I'm gonna head out and uh... "
Em Schulz: Oh right, right, right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They just assumed he went home, I, I guess.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And you know, if it... If, as I'm quite positive it was a camping trip, his wife thinks he's at this camping trip.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: The campers think he's at home, you know. So he waits in the bedroom closet until 1:00 AM so that the man leaves and Marine goes to sleep. He then comes out of hiding, turns on the bathroom light, jumps on top of Marine and chokes her to death. Once she had died, he dragged her body outside into the trunk of her own car. He then drove to the church where he was council president. And because he was council president, he had keys and was...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Given full access to the church. So he put black plastic over the windows of the church, so no one could look inside. He brought her body to the basement of the church, uh, and photographed the body in multiple different poses before putting her body back in the trunk of the car and dumping it in a ditch along a dirt road near their neighborhood.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: So Marine was discovered eight days later on the side of the road. She had a pair of knotted pantyhose laying nearby. Um, despite the pantyhose, which Dennis had actually used in previous murders, uh, investigators did not immediately connect Marine's death to BTK because his MO is not usually to remove people from their house...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: After killing them. Um, so he, he had changed things up. And this time he changed things up again because he did not take credit for this crime. He did not write to the media to take credit, probably because, like you were mentioning, it was so close to home, you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It was a much riskier one this time. So he changed it up enough.
Em Schulz: I feel like that was like a negotiation with... It was... Yeah, it was a negotiation with himself of like, "I'll bring the story to me, but I have to be even more discreet than usual," or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. There's a bigger risk involved.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And interestingly, like you had mentioned, um, you know, people in the area were totally beside themselves, including his own young daughter, Kerri...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Who was petrified that their lovely, sweet, friendly neighbor had just been brutally murdered. And...
Em Schulz: It's one of... It's... I wonder... Sorry, I keep interrupting you. That's so fucked up of me.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I... Is, um... Does he ever say anything, or does anyone say anything about like how... Was he aware of the trauma he was gonna put on his kid and he like almost even liked having the power over her, or was that something he hadn't considered, and he was like, "Oh fuck, I didn't realize that I am hurting her"?
Christine Schiefer: You know, I don't know, because he lies a lot about how he's actually a decent guy. And so I don't really wanna take any of...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: That, you know, as truth necessarily. But what we do know from his daughter is that she was so petrified that she was... You know, she started having nightmares. She talked to her mom and dad about how scared she was and they both reassured her and said, "You are safe here". And her mother even told her, "Your father is right across the hall. No one can hurt you."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And he told her, "I'll keep you safe," you know? Hugged her, said, "Nothing is gonna happen to you." And he probably believed it. He thought, "Well, I, I'm not gonna hurt her, so she'll be safe." In his...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Twisted mind, that's probably how he rationalized that he was a good dad, you know?
Em Schulz: Right. That's a good way to look at it. 'Cause I, um... Yeah, I was like, he didn't even... I wonder if he even considered his own family dynamic of how like his selfish... I mean, there's other words to describe it too, but on top of it, like how selfish this was of like, you really wanted people to talk about you and talk about this murder, and you wanted to bring in close to home, but did you consider that like your own home life would now like, shocker, be affected by this? So, anyway...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think he really cared. I mean, he was like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "You're fine, you're safe." And he knew he wasn't...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Gonna kill her, so he thought, "Well, actually, you know, you're in good hands... " [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately, "Uh, under our roof." I think that must be the way he, you know, explained it away to himself. 'Cause he really does think he's like a decent guy at the end of the day, which is disturbing.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in late 1986, Dennis started stalking his next victim, and that was 28-year-old Vicki Wegerle, who was a married mother of two. He originally found this victim by parking across the street during a lunch break, uh, and hearing some piano music wafting through the air toward him. And he walked past her house and noticed that she was playing the piano, and he felt like she was almost performing for him. And he spent a lot of time planning and fantasizing about this attack. Um, I know I mentioned it, I'm pretty sure last time, but he had these "projects" that he would take extensive notes on, have the, you know, layout of their house, he would, uh, plan, he would, he would name them specific things, you know, like "nicknames". And, uh, this was one of his projects. And so he fantasized for a while about this, about attacking her. And then on the morning of September 16th 1986, Dennis decided to pose as a telephone repairman at the Wegerle house, and Vicki let him in to repair her phone line. Of course, as he is "repairing her phone line", he cuts the phone line...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Unbeknownst to her, which is, um, at the time, was uh, a method of disabling the alarm system. It doesn't quite work that way anymore, thankfully. So he cuts the phone line and he attacks Vicki. Now, she fights back and she scratches and bruises Dennis, but he ultimately overpowers her and he strangles her to death, and then takes the Wegerle family's car. So Vicki's husband Bill was on his way home for lunch and saw his own car driving away from his house...
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: But he noticed that the driver was not Vicki.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So immediately he's like, "Something is up."
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Dennis ditched the car in the meantime and escaped, and Bill got home and found his two-year-old son just sitting alone in the house.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: He's looking everywhere. He's like, "Vicki, where are you?" He can't find her. It takes him a while. He eventually looks around the bedroom and she had fallen on the other side of the bed, like where you...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Glancing in, you wouldn't see her. And he, he finds her there having been strangled to death. Of course, he calls, calls 911, she's rushed to the hospital and later pronounced dead. Again, investigators at this point failed to connect Vicki's murder to the notorious BTK killings, and Dennis again did not take credit for the murder. So Bill Wegerle, her husband, was instead named the prime suspect of his wife's murder.
Em Schulz: Oh God, Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which...
Em Schulz: I feel like I just keep saying, "Oh God, oh God." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, but it... Talk about like a rough turn of fucking events. You find your wife...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Murdered in your house and then, you know... Understandably, you're looked at...
Em Schulz: And now you're the prime suspect.
Christine Schiefer: But now you're the prime suspect, yeah.
Em Schulz: Plot twist.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah. It's, it's not good. Vicki's and Bill's two children basically grew up listening to classmates say, "Your dad murdered your mom," you know, and they didn't...
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Know any better. Like they just kind of had to...
Em Schulz: I didn't even think about that.
Christine Schiefer: Live with this fear that like their own father might have done this. Um, and he also failed two polygraph tests, which... There's a reason polygraph tests are not admittable evidence, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In court because...
Em Schulz: But it also, to some people, does look fishy.
Christine Schiefer: It looks fishy. So people remained convinced that he had murdered his wife. And they didn't have enough to fully charge him, um, but they refused to clear his name. So that's why these rumors kept spreading and the children went through a whole lot of hell because many of their classmates, their friends, weren't even allowed to hang out with them because the local parents thought Bill was a murderer, like a violent murder. And teachers also believed this and spread rumors in the schools. So Brandon, who was two, and the one who was home when his mother was killed, later remembers his grandmother telling him at one point that she, that she had thought BTK killed his mom, but...
Em Schulz: Gasp. Really?
Christine Schiefer: Being a little kid, he didn't know what that meant. So he just kind of lived with this weird lingering fear, you know, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: His grandma just off-handedly saying like, "This man murdered your mother." So for nearly two decades, this accusation would hang over Bill Wegerle's head and follow the whole family wherever they went. In early 1991, Dennis picked his final victim, as far as we know at least. On January 19th, he left another boy scout meeting and...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Unceremoniously through a cinder block through the sliding door of 62-year-old Dolores Davis's home.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: He obviously frightened the shit out of her. And he tried to calm her down by telling her that he just needed to tie her up while he stole some supplies and her car, but he wasn't gonna hurt her. And so he said, "If you comply, I will leave you alone." And, you know, he loved to do this, to play to people's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, naivete or... Not even naivete, but like trusting nature, I guess. So he tells her this. She, you know sort of has to believe it. What else can she do? And he...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Ties her up and strangles her to death. He then put Dolores's remains into her car and hid her body at a nearby park. But he later returned to her house in his own car to move her body and hide Dolores under a bridge, which is where she was eventually discovered. And then just like that, he stopped killing for years. There was absolute silence from the notorious serial killer that haunted Wichita. And according to the FBI during this time, he was engaging in "auto-erotic activities as a substitute for his killings". So he did a lot of...
Em Schulz: Oh. So maybe he was guilty?
Christine Schiefer: Um, no, it was more... Well, if don't know if it was... I don't think it was really guilt necessarily, but um, I mean, my guess, and this is a total guess, but my guess is that he's now aware of all the DNA that's going around, you know, and...
Em Schulz: Oh. Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he's trying to lay low because, uh, his way... Uh, what he's doing at this point, typically, is he is binding himself, um, and putting women's masks on and, um, tying himself up and taking photographs, and that's kind of his, his fix...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So to speak. He, he wears, you know, women's clothing and a mask and... The, the photos are frightening because these old-timey masks are so creepy. [laughter] It's like these old...
Em Schulz: Oh really?
Christine Schiefer: Creepy like porcelain masks...
Em Schulz: Oh, porcelain? Oh, shit. I was thinking like a BDSM thing.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if it's... I don't know if it's porcelain, but it's like a creepy face.
Em Schulz: Like, like a, like a Phantom of the Opera?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, sort of. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna send you a photo 'cause it's really scary. Oh, it's worse than I remember.
Em Schulz: Like a masquerade mask? Is that what it is?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Did you watch hunt... Mindhunter? Because one of the scary...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Is that he's featured pretty heavily in that series, which is really good folks, if you haven't seen it. Um, but I'm gonna send you a picture of like how they did it in the movie, or in the show.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's really scary. I just wanna warn you. Eva, if you're listening...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Jump scare alert, okay. Just be aware. But this is how they portrayed it in the movie and it's almost exactly what the actual mask...
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck me. You don't...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that the creepiest thing you've ever seen? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Do you know what that is? That's the... That's like The Purge masks.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. I knew it was something like that. Here's um, an actual photo of the mask, um, that they found. And this was found, um, I believe near... I believe near Vicki's body... It was found near one of the bodies. Um...
Em Schulz: So he had left it there?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He had left it there and, uh it was collected as evidence.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Eww. And it's like people-colored. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, it's like flesh-toned.
Em Schulz: It's not even white. It's like skin.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's... It's actually like, really... Okay. There's one more... I mean, I don't even know if we can put these on Instagram 'cause there's one more that's really scary. But this is kind of...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm gonna show it to you. Eva, don't look.
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't look if you don't wanna look. This is an example of the type of photos he would be taking of himself.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so this is him. Uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: In a mask and wig and bindings.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm laughing out of nerves. Like, it's not funny, but like that really...
Christine Schiefer: It is so scary. [laughter] Like, oh my God. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And like... So then he would like go to town himself with this. Like be like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Alright. Every... Like, truly, everyone's got a thing.
Christine Schiefer: And honestly, that alone, it's like fine, you know, whatever. You tie yourself up, man, you go for it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, have a good time.
Christine Schiefer: You wear a woman's mask, like, fuck yeah. But it's like knowing that this man did this to other women and children and... God...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, do you know... I mean...
Christine Schiefer: But like, that's what makes it so fucked up, obviously.
Em Schulz: What freaks me out a little bit and like, not, you know... Please understand where I'm coming from 'cause the, the words spill out and it sounds very...
Christine Schiefer: I think I do. I'm pretty sure I do.
Em Schulz: But, um, it seems like he is... I know you said he was wearing masks at the crime scene too, as like, uh, maybe as a way to disguise himself. But here it looks like he was using the masks...
Christine Schiefer: No, he did not wear a mask... He did not wear a mask at the crime scene.
Em Schulz: He put them on the women? Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Um, he either put them on the women if... He put them on himself typically, but he would occasionally put them on the women, um, when he was like posing them after they were dead as like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Part of his fantasy, I guess.
Em Schulz: Because my first thought when I see this picture is that he's using the mask and like dolling it up with make-up and everything to try to literally look like a woman so he can imagine it's a woman so he could still get off to it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's why he's doing it on himself. Yes. He's reenact... Essentially, he's reenacting...
Em Schulz: Gotcha. I didn't know if he had like a cross-dressing thing or something too.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I mean, I think it's maybe a mix. Um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But all we know essentially is that he's sort of reenacting the crimes on himself and...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Almost imagining as though he were his own victim, as if...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: He were a woman. He would wear a pantyhose, he would time himself up, he would wear this mask and a wig. Um, and there's something about just old-timey masks. I mean, guys, picture like those old-timey porcelain dolls with just creepy faces. Like it's... It's an upsetting mask, like in and of itself, whether it's a serial killer's or not. What I think also really bothers me is that as I'm looking this up, there are a lot of people on Reddit who sell like replicas.
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Which is like, stop that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm not for that.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? No.
Em Schulz: Also, one of the things I don't like about this picture specifically that you sent me is that... I mean, he looks even more evil 'cause the eyes are totally black.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The eye... Ooh. The eyes are... The eyes. Yeah. It's just... Yeah.
Em Schulz: And also, it's like really eerie too, because he like... If he's trying to replicate one of his victims, then that means I'm looking at essentially what his victims look like.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. It's so dark.
Em Schulz: It's just [1:28:31.7] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Because it's like, that's what he was doing to people. That's what he wanted. That's what he was fantasizing about and that's what he's actually doing to people um, unwilling people.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine like, like his kid walking in though and seeing him taking pictures like this? It'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Like how do you even explain that? How do you...
Christine Schiefer: No clue.
Em Schulz: I don't even know. I...
Christine Schiefer: I, I mean that goes right back to the compartmentalization of it, you know, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He could do... Be doing this in the basement and his family thought he was doing taxes, you know?
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: It's just, um, really crazy. So I showed you that just to give you an idea of like, [chuckle] this is what he did to get by, almost...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: During the times that, um...
Em Schulz: I think you're dead-on that he discovered that DNA was becoming a real thing, like he needed to...
Christine Schiefer: That's my guess. That's like my gut because it doesn't really strike me... I mean, even he admitted it earlier, like serial killers cannot change their MO or, or stop themselves, you know.
Em Schulz: Or even that, like, I feel like, I feel like serial killers, like their usual, in general, MO is that eventually they get bored of the level they're at and keep getting worse and worse and worse.
Christine Schiefer: And escalate. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And this is a de-escalation because now he's not hurting anybody. He's doing it to himself. I know. I'm sorry. A little nose.
Christine Schiefer: It's alright. I muted. Um...
Em Schulz: But no, like, I feel like he's at least de... It's de-escalating 'cause now he's not harming anybody. He's now only focusing it on himself as a way to look at pictures and he's not doing anything active.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like it's... It feels like there's, there's no going backwards unless something is scaring you, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And the only other thing that people point to is that he was really busy, you know, with, with his job, with his kids. And I feel like we have also seen that with serial killers where the times when their children are young or they, or they get... Their partner gives birth or what have you, tend to be quieter. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, almost like they're too... Like literally too busy to go on these sprees. Um, so that, that, that's the other thing that people point to because he was now working as a compliance officer for a local government. He had two kids at home. He was volunteering with the church, with boy scouts. People think he just kind of started getting in the routine of his life and, uh...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: For, for now, these auto-erotic photos were enough for him. And so he just laid low. And I mean, again, this is not proven, but it's my guess that he probably also was like... Oops, sorry. He probably also knew like "Uh-oh, other people are getting [laughter] caught, like other serial killers that I've looked up to are getting caught with DNA evidence."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "Like, maybe I should be careful." I don't know. That's just my insight.
Em Schulz: You know, I, I'm on your side with the, with the DNA... I kinda call bullshit on like, he was too busy because I think it's a lot more time-efficient to drive to someone's house, kill them, and not even worry about cleaning up the dead bodies than to do whatever this is of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It seems, it seems odd, definitely.
Em Schulz: Getting the whole outfit together, putting the make-up on, putting the hair on, getting yourself situated in a chair, looking like you're binding...
Christine Schiefer: Especially if that's not...
Em Schulz: Setting up a camera...
Christine Schiefer: As much of a much of a thrill for you as actually doing it to other people, you know? Like, if that's not...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Getting your rocks off in the same way, then like why...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Why de-escalate? Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's... No, he's totally doing a plan B because something was going on. That's my feeling.
Em Schulz: That's kind of how my, my... How I understand it. I mean, obviously I'm no expert, but, um it just kind of makes sense to me. Um, but so now we fast forward essentially to January 11th 2004. Oh, and I wanna be clear too, we don't necessarily know he didn't hurt anyone during that time. It's just what he's been linked to didn't happen in that time span. So there could be other people.
Em Schulz: And...
Em Schulz: And there might well be other people.
Em Schulz: And during... So BTK, what did he... This... It might be a stupid question at the end of two whole episodes, but like, what was his main method of torture? I mean, I... Not that this isn't fucking torture, but like, usually when I think of torture, it's like additional intense, severe pain.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I, I thought about that as well, and that's why for the longest time, Em and I had even talked about like... I mean, there... There are a couple of stories we don't wanna cover because they're just too much for us at a certain point in time. And um, the Toy-Box Killer is the one I just don't ever wanna go near. Um, and I thought this would be one of them as well, because the torture element is so hard for me to deal with in stories like this. But I think the BTK... I mean, from what I've gathered, or at least when I've mulled this over, 'cause I've had the same question as you, I almost think because he came up with all those other nicknames, that it didn't necessarily even...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like the Wichita Hangman, but he didn't really hang people. He only hanged one person. So it's like... It almost feels like he's just kind of finding words that he likes or that sound good together in his mind.
Em Schulz: Also, maybe it, it gave him wiggle room to, to, um... What was the word you just said? To escalate. It gave him...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Room where things...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe... Yeah, maybe that was part of what he thought would end up happening. And I... Oh, another important part to this as well, um, with the... I'm not sure if I mentioned this in part one, but when the Oteros were killed, um, remember how I said he wasn't... He did... Hadn't realized how difficult it was to kill somebody until he was doing it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When investigators came upon the crime scene later, it was believed that he had been resuscitating the family, and then strangling them again into unconsciousness...
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: As a torture tactic. But in reality, they found out later that it was only because he didn't realize how hard it was to actually kill someone. And so, his victims kept waking up and he, he... He said...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "I was not doing that intentionally. I really was just trying to end their lives."
Em Schulz: "I'm just trying to kill them, okay?" Like...
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't torture. I know.
Em Schulz: "Get off my case."
Christine Schiefer: "I'm sorry, I'm not that bad of a guy." Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So even then, it's like the torture might've made sense to people back then, but now that he's explained that wasn't intentional, then I don't know where the... I mean, of course, it's all torturous in the way that he's...
Em Schulz: Yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Sexually assaulting and murdering people, but other than that, yeah, torture doesn't seem to really... It's not the kind of torture that you expect with a serial killer, I guess, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, um, all we know is at this point, he is laying low.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On January 11th, 2004, and now, this is 13 years since Dennis's last known murder, The Wichita Eagle ran a story about the upcoming 30-year anniversary of the Otero family murders and the unsolved BTK killings that plagued Wichita. And Dennis read the article and as he's reading the article about himself, and I'm sure jacking off or whatever he's doing, uh, he discovers that someone is planning to write a book about his murders. Oh God.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine his, his delight.
Em Schulz: Delight and fear all at the same time. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's almost like I imagine there was a thrill and also just like a, "Shit," because he was not happy... He wanted to be talked about, but he was not happy that this would be told without his own input. He wanted...
Em Schulz: I love that all of a sudden he knows what consent is. Uh, but he um...
Christine Schiefer: Right? [laughter] He's like, "You can't do that."
Em Schulz: He's like, "I want you to talk about me, but I don't want you to like pry. Jesus."
Christine Schiefer: It's a great point. Yeah. "But this is my business. Stay out of my business." And he wanted the story to be as accurate as possible. He's like, "If you're gonna write a book about me, it's gonna be accurate. You're gonna know why I chose my victims, how I operated." And he felt such a sense of like pride and ownership over his...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Despicable acts that he didn't think anyone else should get a right to tell his story except him, which is basically what you're saying.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He was like, "You don't have consent from me." He's like, [chuckle] "Well, well, well, well, in that case... "
Em Schulz: It's like, "What are you complaining about? It's not like I'm strangling you to death."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. "Here, I'll mail some of the things out of your underwear drawer back to you, asshole."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "But okay, sure, I don't have your consent?" So Dennis was also, in his own words, at this point, bored, which...
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Makes me think he was really intentionally laying low because he had apparently long considered resurrecting BTK. And now that the 30-year anniversary was coming up, he's like, "Okay, it's my time to shine again, baby." So he decided to, you know, uh, boot up the old, I don't know what the old, uh...
Em Schulz: Thing is?
Christine Schiefer: Ropes? The old poetry typewriter?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea. But he decides he's gonna get back on his old game. And he also knew that authorities and the media, uh, believed that BTK was either dead or in prison, which gave him like an edge because they didn't think he was still out there active because he had seemingly vanished, which usually means that the perpetrator has been arrested for another crime or has died.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But no, he wanted them to know he is still out there living his life. So in March, he mailed evidence to The Wichita Eagle of Vicki's murder, including her driver's license, which he had stolen, and a photo of her body. So, [chuckle] that's a startling thing to get as the journalist at The Wichita Eagle.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Can you imagine? Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: 30 years after the Otero murders, now you're getting... He's like, "I'm back." Yikes. So also remember, Bill Wegerle is still, in the eyes of the public, guilty for killing his wife.
Em Schulz: Oh, right.
Christine Schiefer: And it's been a long time.
Em Schulz: 30 years? Or 20 years?
Christine Schiefer: 30 years was the Otero. I believe it was, God, uh...
Em Schulz: Like 20 years?
Christine Schiefer: 13? No. 20 years? 14 years? I think a, I think a decade and a half-ish.
Em Schulz: Oh, a long ass time. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's been a while. Um, and so he's finally exonerated among his peers, Bill Wegerle. And in May, uh, of that year, Dennis sends a letter to a local television station called... It's spelled K-A-K-E, KAKE, [chuckle]] KAKE TV.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and this letter is so fucking stupid. I'm sorry, I just can't... I just had to go look up like the actual contents.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I just knew it would be stupid and it sure is.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he decides he's gonna start helping with the book-writing process, okay.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. That's all I needed to hear.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. Well, I read that and said, "Give... I need to know more."
Em Schulz: It's like, what a martyr. He's gonna be helpful, [laughter] thank you, about his own experience.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "I'm a ghostwriter." Yeah, exactly. So he, he actually apparently was a fan of KAKE TV. Like the... He watched their morning show like every day. So he decides they're the ones who are gonna get his special letter, which is, by the way, full of chapter title ideas for his autobiography.
Em Schulz: Lucky them.
Christine Schiefer: Here's... Lucky them. Here's some, um, [chuckle] chapter titles. Are you ready?
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: "A Serial Killer is Born", chapter one. Chapter two, "Dawn". Chapter three, "Fetish". Chapter four, "Fantasy World". Five, "The Search Begins". Six, "BTK's Haunts". Next is "PJ's", which is how he abbreviated "projects". 'Cause at first I thought, "Oh, jammy jams". No, no, no.
Em Schulz: Fucking...
Christine Schiefer: PJ's [laughter] means projects, as in his victims.
Em Schulz: Okay. Does he think it's spelled "pro jects"?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, probably BTK does. Remember, BTK doesn't know how to spell.
Em Schulz: What a dumb ass. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't make any sense. Dumb space... What a DA, you know? Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The next chapter is called "MO," all capital, "MO-ID-Ruse". Now, BTK's choice of MO-ID-Ruse probably relates to his use of fake IDs such as like the telephone company employee ID. He had...
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Referenced in the past, um, as well as his MO, and in all probability, um, he used these like fake ID badges or whatever to get into people's homes and, uh, that was his ruse, so to speak. So that's probably why they, he named it that. Uh, then he is got "Hits", "Treasured Memories", "Final Curtain Call"...
Em Schulz: Disgusting.
Christine Schiefer: "Dusk", and then the final chapter is called "Will There Be More?"
Em Schulz: You know he thought he fucking ate by putting "Dusk", when he had put "Dawn" earlier.
Christine Schiefer: I was about to say, do you think he was like...
Em Schulz: You know he...
Christine Schiefer: "Oh fuck, yeah." [laughter]
Em Schulz: He went, "That one's gonna give 'em chills." And like, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think... Here's my, here's my, um, being able to see right through him, I, I think, um, but first of all, my, my first thought was, just write your own fucking book. You clearly wanna be a writer. And then in my head I was like, he does wanna be a writer. He really wanted poems to be like part of his thing. He really like... So I...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. He thinks he's a great writer.
Em Schulz: So I think he... First of all, he wants notoriety wherever he can get it. He wants to be talked about. He wants to be in control. But on top of that, like, it must have been a real threat to him for a different writer to say, "Oh, I'm going to take control of your story." And the one thing he, he wants to always be in charge of is like in control of the narrative. And now someone's literally going to...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Write the story and be in control of it...
Christine Schiefer: A narrative.
Em Schulz: On top of him... And, and he knows that that will... That book will do well for a writer that isn't him. And he probably feels threatened with his identity as a writer. And he's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, let me step in and let me, let me be the writer before you get the chance to be the writer. Like, I think his...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: His world is actually being a lot more rocked than we're aware of.
Christine Schiefer: And with... I, I think you're totally right. Like this clearly shook him. Like, I, I imagine when he read the article, he was like, "Oh, yeah, they're talking about me," and then the thing about the book probably sent him over the edge like, "No, no, no, no, that's too far. That's my story." And, um...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Speaking of his writing, I, I wanna also add that I misspoke and gave him too much credit because the last title was not "Will... " I thought I made a typo. No, no, no. He made a typo. [laughter] It's not, "Will there be more?" It's "Will There More?"
Em Schulz: Oh, Jesus. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which, like, you can't even write your own chapter titles right.
Em Schulz: I feel like this is definitely, um, like, like we're saying, like he's probably totally shaken by it, but it's purely for ego. Like, like imagine a really bad person also just wants to make it in Hollywood, and then they're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've seen your audition tapes, but now we're actually going to have someone else star as you in a movie about you."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: "And you're not even invited to try out for it."
Christine Schiefer: You know that's how he sees it.
Em Schulz: He would literally like... He would fucking blow a gasket.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and he did. He really, really did.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He said... He was like, "I'll write it better." So he wrote those really shitty chapter titles and sent them in, I guess, trying to impress everybody. And... But it didn't stop there. He also sent a page of like the fake IDs he had used, and he sent a homemade word search puzzle along with this chapter title list.
Em Schulz: It's literally... If we're still going with the Hollywood, um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Analogy?
Em Schulz: Analogy, it's like she finally, like, I'm thinking about like this, this actress who desperately wants to make it, but she's like not good enough to play herself in a movie about herself, [laughter] she, she found a way to sneak onto the, the stage, she's finally like... She's just trying to make it as like a background character in her own movie. And so now she's like baking cupcakes for the main character who's gonna play her. Like she's kissing ass...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Being like, "What do you need from me? What do you need from me? How about I tell you... How about I help you with your character? How about I help you with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just so you'll... Maybe I'll also, you know, get invited to the... "
Christine Schiefer: "Get in your good graces."
Em Schulz: "To the red carpet." It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like, shut up. Like, first of all, like, I love that he's fully unraveling at the thought of not being in control. I love it.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're 100% right. And it's to the point that he's so unhinged that he... His word search, which by the way, the words to search for include "prowl", "details" and "fantasies". But...
Em Schulz: And none of those he spelled right, I'm sure.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Probably not. So like no one won the word search. Yeah. Uh, but at the time, investigators didn't even realize that Dennis had put his street address number and his own last name in the word search as like a secret.
Em Schulz: Oh, what a good secret. Ooh. Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, [laughter] fucking idiot.
Em Schulz: You, you fooled me. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So the numbers 6-2-2-0 were in there and R-A-D-E-R, Rader. So they didn't know, 'cause they didn't know who he was. So it's like they wouldn't have known. But he thought he was so clever, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But as he described it, when he sent this to... I mean, he really, like you said, thought he was doing them a favor because he considered the TV station, KAKE TV, uh, his friends. He, he really felt like he had a...
Em Schulz: Yeesh.
Christine Schiefer: Kinship with them.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, um, every night that they would report, he... They knew he was watching. Um, there have been... One of the anchors was like, genuinely, she was really traumatized by the whole experience. This gives me chills. Uh, at the end of one segment, the anchors made, um, one of the anchors, the one that I mentioned, made an off-handed comment about having a cold, and two days later, a postcard showed up from BTK saying, "Sorry about Susan's and Jeff's colds."
Em Schulz: Gasp. Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Christine, I... Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Like now they know he's watching them every night and is like making, taking notes. And she's a young woman, like... Ooh.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And one more thing I wanna add, when I watched this, uh, anchor talking about how traumatizing this whole experience was, he once went on a tour of the TV station with a tour group...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And got to watch a live news broadcast. And they didn't know that until...
Em Schulz: He really likes this news station.
Christine Schiefer: Until... I know, I know. Until they, they went back and looked at the logs and Dennis Rader, once, ages ago, had been on a tour of the TV station.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Just too close. Too close. So in June, he sent a letter to the police. Then he started leaving packages in public places like libraries and grocery stores. So this is now just like a game, right? Like he's playing his own little scavenger hunt. Um, in the packages were trophies of his, which were stolen items from victims' houses. And in January 2005, a letter to the police led investigators to a Home Depot, of all things, where Dennis had left a message in a cereal box in the bed of an employee's pickup truck.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the joke was like, "Cereal killer. Cereal haha."
Em Schulz: Ah. Ha-ha-ha-ha.
Christine Schiefer: I know it probably goes above all our heads because he's such a fucking comedic genius, but there you go.
Em Schulz: This is where I need to pull out your classic, "I'm just a little confused. Can you explain it to me?"
Christine Schiefer: "I'm sorry. Can you explain a little slower since I'm apparently too stupid to understand you?"
Em Schulz: "I'm such a dummy. I'm so stupid." Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So the message in the cereal box asked whether BTK could... This is... This is great. He asks police whether BTK could relay messages via a computer floppy disk without being traced and...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He said, "If that is the case, I want you to run an ad in the paper that reads 'Rex, it will be okay.' And then I'll know I can send you information via floppy disk and you won't be able to trace me." And so the police ran a classified ad in the newspaper that read "Rex, it will be okay. Contact me PO box first four reference numbers at 67202." And that was how they said, "Here, this is where you can send your floppy disk." Guess why he named himself Rex, first of all.
Em Schulz: 'Cause he thinks he's a big, big scary dinosaur? What?
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it's three letters and it sounds like "sex".
Em Schulz: Oh, right. Oh, God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Um, another disturbing thing that just... Because Rex, yes, sounds like a dog's name. Um, he also called his down there, Sparky.
Em Schulz: Is he...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I'm not sick.
Em Schulz: What? I don't even know what to say with that. That was just... That's... It's not even... That sounds like, like a really bad joke that your like really uh, out-of-touch uncle would try to make and everyone would just kind of sit in silence and be like, "What did you just say?"
Christine Schiefer: Like, "What the fuck is he saying?"
Em Schulz: It's like, "What am I supposed to do with that? I have no idea what to do with that." Oof. It's just I don't like it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: That's... I can tell you that.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. It's very bad. Um, ugh. So that's what... I don't even know why you would tell people that. Like, just keep that to yourself, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's not even... Like, if you're gonna tell people what you called it, you better have a fucking kickass name. Like that's the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You better be proud... I guess he was proud of it.
Em Schulz: Honestly, the dumbest. It's the dumbest.
Christine Schiefer: It's really stupid. I just thought of that 'cause of Rex, you know? So, police...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. You could have... Okay, never mind. Keep going, sorry.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Run a, uh, run a, a classified that says, uh, "Rex, it will be okay. Here's the PO box." Of course, they're fucking lying.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what does he think? He literally thinks they're gonna be like, "Oh shoot. Yeah, we can't track you via a floppy disks. So I guess you better not send one."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what kind of moron thinks like, "Oh, they'll tell me the truth." So, of course...
Em Schulz: He really must have... I mean, he, so, so far though has like really played into people's naivete. So maybe he...
Christine Schiefer: That's fair.
Em Schulz: Thought that like, "Oh, well everyone's stupid compared to me 'cause I'm a big fat narcissist," you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. This is where it shows. Like, this is where he really starts to unravel because of how full of himself he is. Because of course, they're fucking lying. And then Dennis mails them a fucking floppy disk in February and investigators just open it up, check the metadata and see that there's a folder called Christ Lutheran Church and Park City Library with fucking Dennis's username as the person who had accessed it last. Dennis...
Em Schulz: This is...
Christine Schiefer: From Christ Lutheran Church.
Em Schulz: The irony is that he took a 30-year break because he was scared of the new technology...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And the new technology won as soon as he went back into it.
Christine Schiefer: The, the floppy disk. [laughter]
Em Schulz: As soon as he went back into it.
Christine Schiefer: The new technology being a floppy disk, which I feel like everyone listening, if there is anyone listening under the age of 20 is like, "What is that?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. But at the time it was like, "Oh, you're scared of like advancements and like, it still kicked your ass five seconds into you trying anyway."
Christine Schiefer: "It kicked your ass, dummy. Can't even do your own research to determine if someone can... "
Em Schulz: Right. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "Trace a floppy disk." Uh so anyway, uh, the investigators simply searched for Dennis at Christ Lutheran Church on the internet and Dennis Rader pops right up. He's the church's president. And, uh, they're like, "Ding, ding, ding. That's probably our guy." So they contact the pastor to ask who used the church computer and they sent a list, and Dennis Rader for sure was on it. So Dennis became their prime suspect for obvious reasons. But they decided the best step was to link him to the DNA evidence that they had preserved from the '80s by the...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ghostbusters task force. Remember them?
Em Schulz: Actually, you know what, I said I would wait to see how I felt about them by the end. Go, Ghostbusters.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? It's like, "Okay, I see you, I see what you're doing here. Um, you know what, you've won our hearts by the end um, and I'm, I'm proud of you." So they saved all this evidence and they were like, "You know what, we wanna match him to the DNA, but we don't wanna go straight to Dennis because if we say we want your DNA, like he's gonna know... "
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: "That we're onto him, obviously." And they didn't have enough evidence to outright arrest him without that DNA match. So they were kind of nervous because if they "trigger" him and, and say like, "Yeah, we're onto you," by getting his DNA sample, they're worried he's gonna strike again and like just...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, go on another spree. So they didn't want to reveal their hand. So instead they decided to seek out a familial match and see if they could link his DNA that way. They discovered that Dennis's daughter, Kerri, this is where it's a little dicey, recently underwent a pap smear at the hospital.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so the hospital turned over a sample of her DNA...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Under a judge's order from the procedure, which in my mind is... She did... She had no idea about this. I find this pretty um...
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Pretty, um, invasive and...
Em Schulz: Violating? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Violating. Violating is the right word. So...
Em Schulz: Was this because back then, like the rules were still being like created about DNA and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I think so.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I think a judge just said, "Yeah, get the DNA," and they said "Okay", and nobody...
Em Schulz: My first thought... My first thought was do the Law and Order thing where you give them a can of soda, and when they drink it, now you've got their DNA.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? And like nowadays you know they're, uh, often just following them through the mall and getting their trash out of the...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Getting their PF Chang's out of the garbage, you know. Um, but basically, they got the pap smear, [chuckle] which seems, again, very invasive, and she didn't know about it until later, which was upsetting. Um, but lo and behold, they got a match, uh, to BTK's DNA. So on February 25th, 2005, detectives finally took Dennis Rader into custody and they said, "Would you be surprised to know that the father of your daughter is BTK?" because of the DNA family match.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And after a short silence, an FBI agent in the room said, "Tell us who you are," and Dennis said, "I'm BTK. You got me."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Ugh... "Dusk".
Christine Schiefer: "Dusk". [laughter] "Will There More?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No. That's my answer. The chapter just goes "No". [laughter] Fucker. Never again. So of course, at this point, ding, ding, ding, they got him. Time to unravel decades of this man's fucking despicable acts. And a search of his house revealed some disturbing things. These aren't necessarily like crucial to the story, but I just find them so disturbing that I'm gonna include them. Um, one thing they discovered was a stress ball in his house. You know the brand, Life is Good?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That was like big in the 2000s. Um... And everyone... I mean, I don't know. Everyone had a t-shirt I feel like from vacation with like "Life is good".
Em Schulz: Everyone did.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, [laughter] I definitely did. Um, but he had a stress ball that said, "Life is good". It turns out he would use that at home to strengthen his hands for strangulation.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Eww. "Life is good" is like, "We... "
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: "Do not condone this." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know, and it's like, of all the phrases to have on your tool...
Em Schulz: Yeah. "Life is good"?
Em Schulz: To practise taking lives? So they also found, of course, meticulous notes of his past projects. Um...
Christine Schiefer: PJs.
Em Schulz: A lot of those he kept at work. His PJs, I'm so sorry, yes. And um, they basically had to go around telling people, "Hey, you were gonna be a victim of BTK."
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Like "He had is eyes on you," or "He had already targeted you." Like, "He... "
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: "He was writing about your daily routine," which is just chilling. Um... Just bizarre. Like he, he had all these unfinished "PJs" you know, that he had never really gone through with, and they had to go around and tell people like, I mean, good news, bad news, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. But it's also like if he was trying to like not... He was still on his hiatus of killing, maybe like all he had left was just observing people and he got really geared into it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe he was just doing the, the like, stalking part.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was like all he could do that was left.
Christine Schiefer: The fantasizing. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably true. So the arrest went public the following day, which I imagine... I, I, I don't totally remember. I vaguely remember this time, but I was not in my true crime era yet. Um the arrest went public and authorities told the nation they'd finally caught BTK, who again, they had assumed was either dead or in prison and they'd never know. Um, so of course, a wave of relief passed through Wichita. Um, but people who were close to Dennis and considered him a friend were shocked. Uh, we talked a lot about the, you know, compartmentalizing of Dennis Rader and BTK. Um, and he pulled that off in a lot of instances. So Paul... Paul Carls... [laughter]
Em Schulz: What? Try again?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. Paul Carlstedt, who knew Dennis for 30 years, could not believe, like he just could not reconcile that these were the same person, which must just be the...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The most trippy feeling like of you... How do you trust yourself after that, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and he had known Dennis for 30 years and he just could not believe this man could do something so terrible. He said, "We prayed in church for a conclusion to this crime spree," like while Dennis was in church with them. So like, Dennis is praying with everybody. Like, but he loved that. He got off on that.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: "Our prayers were not answered in the way we expected them to be answered, but they were answered." [chuckle] Yeah, that's one way to put it.
Em Schulz: Okay, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Um, when detectives broke the news to Dennis's daughter, she could not believe it was true. She began reading... And she had actually heard of BTK, but she's like, "I just didn't really know much about it, like even growing up in the area." Like, she was off at college at this time, but she said... Like, she didn't even pay this BTK story any mind. She just had heard of it...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Never was interesting to her, never really thought much of it and went off to school. And then all of sudden they're like, "Oh yeah, that serial killer everyone is talking about? That's your dad." And, um, she tried to go online to like read about what he did to almost reassure herself that like maybe she can rationalize it. Like maybe her dad's not...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: As bad as everyone's making it out to be, and of course, the tales of fucking horror that she started reading online were just beyond anything she could have predicted and were so much worse.
Em Schulz: I mean, imagine, imagine even seeing the picture of him in the mask and you're like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "That's my fucking basement."
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "That's not my dad." That... I know. It must be so mind-fucking to be like, "How is that my father?" Oof.
Em Schulz: And also like this, um... I don't know what to make of the information, I'm just putting it out there, that I'm noticing my brain going to... She... The... Those kids who had to grow up being bullied by everyone thinking like, "Your dad's a killer, your dad's a killer... "
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And like they grew up with like this whole journey of trauma, having to deal with like wondering every day if they should even feel safe with their dad. And I'm noticing that she's having uh, a different experience where she didn't get to... She didn't have to deal with that, but now as an adult, she's having this like crazy reckoning. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, she's having like such a reckoning of like, "How do I reconcile having a happy, safe, loving...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Father with this?"
Em Schulz: It's... Which we talked about last week a little bit. Um, I don't remember if it was while recording or just like between us. But like the humanizing a serial killer is...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: In a lot of ways is very um, controversial, but important also...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: To like remember that like even if you don't wanna humanize them, humanize the fact that there are people on the other side of the narrative that are being affected in all sorts of ways. And that's just two ways that children are fucked up now, where like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, completely.
Em Schulz: Where like there's two kids who like had an innocent father and instead of having, getting the space to grieve their dead mom, they had to be living in fear of their own father and, and getting bullied for it their whole lives. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: There's a whole other story now, of someone who literally lived with a serial killer and had fear growing up because she knew there was a serial killer in her area, then kind of forgot about it, and then now finds out her father is the one... I men like, it's... I think that's one of the reasons why you and I encourage empathizing or showing compassion in some way to even though... Not the worst people, but at least the people affected by their actions that did love them.
Christine Schiefer: Just to at least relate to them in a way where it's like, oh, this isn't some inhuman monster... I mean it is, in a way, but like in another way, it's just the guy next door. It's just someone's dad. It's the president of the church. It's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The cub scout leader. Like, it's the pillar of the community, you know. It's, it's not just this monster that none of us will ever encounter. It's like these people are real and they're out there, unfortunately. And so, you know, if we're gonna talk about them, at least we should know, you know, not everyone has like a radar that they can sense [chuckle] who's a serial killer, who's not, even as much, as much as we try to think we'll know if we come across somebody like that. Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, some people, that's their gift. They're good at hiding that part of themselves.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: And she's talked about... Kerri has talked about telling her own children, like having to explain where their grandfather is.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like why they don't really talk about him. Like, you know, they kept saying, "What did he do? What did he do to go to jail?" And she's like, "I just had to find ways to discuss this with them."
Em Schulz: Like, how honest do you wanna be? And like also if...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: If you don't tell them the truth, then does, does he still have power over you by making you lie to your kids? Like, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So it's... At least when we, um, try to somehow humanize people every now and then, it's mainly... It's... For me, mainly, it's to at least remember to show sympathy for the collateral damage in their life, which is people.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And to keep everyone on alert that like, these are real people. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They're, they're just everyday people. They're not just like these larger-than-life monsters, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, someone drinking, someone drinking beer at the bowling alley, uh, could...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Be the serial killer.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, exactly.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So it was a really hard thing, really hard, and I think she's still, uh, struggling with, you know, reconciling those two parts of her life, those two parts of her father. Um, meanwhile, others who knew Dennis, like for example, the women he harassed in the neighborhood, the woman whose dog he had euthanized for no reason...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The men who witnessed him behave this way did not really agree with this like all-American guy, you know. They, they knew all along that he was an abusive man and abused his power. Um, and so they kind of were like, "Yeah, that actually doesn't surprise us as much as it surprises everyone else." But in his interviews, you can just feel how much Dennis loves talking about himself. It's disgusting. He was so self-involved. He wanted to tell people what he did. He wanted to analyze why he did it. Very Ed Kemper vibes. Like, "Let's talk about me for a while. Let's... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Psycho-analyze my brain." Um...
Em Schulz: Well, also to have like 30 or 40 or 50 years of your life that you never got to talk about and now someone's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Lord.
Em Schulz: Sitting across the table from you.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you're 100% right. You haven't even journaled it, you know. You... Now you finally get to just spit it all out.
Em Schulz: It's your first person you get to say it to, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And they're listening intently. [chuckle] So despite all this, Dennis tried to enter a not guilty plea in April after waiving his right to a preliminary hearing before trial.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, this is how narcissistic this guy is. But Dennis's defense team knew there was overwhelming evidence against Dennis and they didn't have solid support for an insanity plea. So in late June, Dennis surprised the court by suddenly pleading guilty to 10 counts of first degree murder. During sentencing, he stunned the court with graphic details of his crimes. And I've listened to a lot of this retelling, it's very long, very in-depth, deeply disturbing, especially because his tone is so calm and matter-of-fact, it's almost like, like he doesn't feel at all affected by them, but he's sort of like, "Hmm, let me think. Did I bind her with uh, this kind of knot or this kind of knot?" you know? He's talking like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like he's describing what he had for breakfast this morning, you know, like "Was it... Was it that? Was it...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Do you think he was... Since you've heard it, do you think he was like, he knew what he was doing and he was eating up the fact that he knew his behavior and the way he was handling it was terrifying people?
Christine Schiefer: No. I think he just wanted to tell the entire story from beginning to end, and he really...
Em Schulz: Really? He just had no idea that it was even fucked up about the way that he was talking about it. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: No. No. I don't think it fazed him. I think he genuinely just said, "You know what, you all deserve an explanation. Here it is." And everyone was like, "Yeah, you're really talking about this like you're describing the baseball game," you know. It's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just so graphic and it definitely doesn't match the tone. Um, but you know, what do you expect from the guy who enjoyed doing it? Right? Like...
Em Schulz: I wonder if, I wonder if he... I mean, do we... I don't know if you know why he, um, all of a sudden changed his, uh, plea to guilty, but part of me feels like he was like, "This is my opportunity. Like, I might... I'm already going to jail even on a, on a plea charge, like... "
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: "I would be going to jail. I might as well take my five minutes of fame and get on a literal soap box and just... "
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: "Be, be as detailed as I possibly want and just finally... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think...
Em Schulz: "Get to tell my story."
Christine Schiefer: I think a major part of the switch was because his defense team said like, "You're not getting... There's no way out of this. Like, you're not getting a sanity plea. There's so much evidence. Like, you're going to prison." And yes, he probably then thought, "Okay, well, then I wanna tell my side of things." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And uh this was his chance. And he did. He, he went over every single case, uh, that we know of at least. And meanwhile, victims' loved ones like the surviving Otero children who are now adults had to listen to Dennis describe how he chose his victims, how he killed them, including their little sister. I mean, just so fucked up. He described their last words, so he described the, the things they said to him as they were dying. Um, for example, the Oteros' mother said, uh, said, "May God have mercy on your soul." And...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That was the last thing she said to him. And the, the oldest son, who had been dealing with this trauma forever, said that was at least like one glimmer of like comfort to him that his mother was strong enough to say that as her final words.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, but I mean, still, that's his... This is after decades, the first time he's hearing what really happened to his family. So despite all this, Dennis then asked for forgiveness from the victims' families. Uh, he believed he deserved forgiveness. He said, "The dark side was there, but now I think light is beginning to shine, and finally, a final, apologize to the victims' families. There's no way that I can ever repay you." Of course, nobody fucking forgave him.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause like, get out of here. Uh there was no capital punishment in Kansas when the crimes were committed, so he was not eligible for the death penalty. And at 60 years old, he was instead sentenced to 10 consecutive life terms for his crimes and to serve a minimum of 175 years before the possibility of parole. So in the following years, as you can imagine, interviews, books, documentaries, this guy was everywhere. Uh, they interviewed him so he could share his own story, always what he wanted, you know, a story from his mouth. Uh, you know, it's, it's a hard one to justify because on the one hand, it's like you don't wanna give him the credit of like reading his own testimony of what happened...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But uh, on the other hand, it's like a lot of the detail and information is from him, you know.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So it's kind of a hard line to walk. Um, you know, there... There's this ego he has that is fed by people obsessing over him, him and his crimes, calling him BTK. He loves talking about his thought process. He loves mulling over why he is the way that he is. Uh, he thinks... Like interviewers basically ask him to, you know, share his side and he just loves it. He eats it up. So in 2016, Katherine Ramsland published a book called, "Confession of a Serial Killer: The Untold Story of Dennis Rader, the BTK Killer". And the book description says, "Through jailhouse visits, telephone calls and written correspondence, Katherine Ramsland worked with Rader himself to analyze the layers of his psyche." And now he's getting this book deal he's always wanted. He's telling the story from his own dumbass mouth. But in 2019, Dennis's daughter Kerri published her own book...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that book was called "A Serial Killer's Daughter: My Story of Hope, Love and Overcoming". Um so this is all very controversial because you can, I mean you can imagine why. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Those interested in the case and topics like what happens to a serial killer's family in the wake of his crimes, you know, they love this book and believed Kerri was a victim herself and deserved to share her story. But then other people felt like this was just another PR piece for the Rader family. Um, you know, for example, Kerri describes being caught off-guard at sentencing when the prosecution further describes details of Dennis's crimes. And she wrote, "They checked with the victims' families before proceeding, but the prosecution didn't check in with this family, the eighth family. I found out later that others had come to the defense of our innocent family, asking if there was an actual need to do this. Wouldn't it embarrass my family further, shame us, hurt us? No one asked or warned us it was coming." And I feel like I can see both ways of that. It's like... It's not necessarily about you guys right now because...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He is finally getting justice for the brutality and just the horrors that he did to these families and these children. But also, of course, it's not fair to you either. You know, this isn't like... You didn't do this. This is not your fault or you're doing, and you're suffering too. It's hard. I don't know. I don't... I don't think there's an easy answer. I just... I think it's...
Em Schulz: I don't think there is, either.
Christine Schiefer: Or, like you said earlier, you know, did he know what position he was putting his family in? Obviously he didn't, or he didn't care um, because he really put them through hell. Um, but that, you know, that's as far as I can say confidently how I feel because I don't quite know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, 'cause I do believe she was a victim in her own way. Um, but I just don't think there's an easy answer as to like what, what we're supposed to do about it. I don't know. I don't know. So she was also criticized uh, for writing that she has never read the statements by the victims' families because they were too hard for her to read. I also don't know where I stand on that. Um, this is a lot of...
Em Schulz: I can see both sides of that for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's like there's so much grief and trauma and she's raising her own children, and it's like...
Em Schulz: And also like, you don't... Like you don't want to... Nobody knows the experience of having BTK as your father other than her, and like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She's... Maybe she really just doesn't wanna hear what her dad did to people and like she can still have sympathy for them. I don't know. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It's hard because on the other hand, it's like, well, then you should know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What he did. But it's like, but you can't force her... I don't know. It's a very weird icky feeling. I don't... I don't... I honestly don't think there's an easy answer, you know. It's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It feels gross to judge her on that. It's a... What... I think she... If she gets a pass, like I think that's a fair pass like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I, I... Right. I'm like, okay, I don't think we should maybe linger on that too much. I don't know. I mean, uh, again, you can't force her to read it, but I can see why people would be upset that she hasn't fully acknowledged all of what he did. I don't know. I mean, I'll just tell you what other people feel. So you know, readers ultimately believe Kerri is right to her grief and trauma, of course, but so many interviews and documentaries focus on Dennis and his words and his feelings and his backstory, that it sort of felt like, oh God, the media is now prioritizing another person...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Instead of the victims' families. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I think people just were frustrated about that. Uh, but of course...
Em Schulz: Well, it makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: People were still sympathetic to Kerri and her family's grief because what a shithole they found themselves in all of a sudden. Um...
Em Schulz: Did she keep her relationship with him and... When he went to prison?
Christine Schiefer: It took a long, long, long time, and she finally wrote him a letter and, um, he responded, and she said they've had like a tenuous back and forth...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Over the years. Yeah. So the 2022 Hulu mini series, "BTK: Confession of A Serial Killer" uh, once again, put Dennis in the limelight, featuring interviews with him so he could share his side of things, uh, like he always wanted. He's still alive. He remains in prison. Um, in August, he made headlines for the first time in years, having been named the prime suspect in two cold cases; one in Missouri and one in Oklahoma. There was 16-year-old Cynthia Kinney who was last seen at a laundromat in Pawhuska, Oklahoma before she vanished in 1976. And recently, they re-opened her case and investigators realized the building across the street was having a new alarm system installed right when she disappeared.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. It seems Dennis was a regional installer who may have worked in the area occasionally at the time, and he also included in some of his writings the phrase "bad laundry day".
Em Schulz: Eww.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. And she was last seen at a laundromat. So he's also being investigated for the rape and murder of 22-year-old Shawna Beth Garber. Her body was found two months after her death in 1990 in McDonald County, Missouri, but police couldn't at the time identify her and she became a Jane Doe. When Shawna was seven years old, she and her five-year-old brother Rob had been separated in foster care, and Rob said "Growing up without her, there was always just a hole in my life that I couldn't fill." So as soon as he was 18, Rob started looking for his sister. When he got married, his wife made it her mission to reunite her husband and his sister, which is really sweet. Um, of course, it didn't end very well. In 2021, investigators used DNA to finally identify Shawna as the unnamed Jane Doe that they had discovered back in 1990. And Rob said it was devastating just to find out that she'd been sitting in a box for 30 years...
Em Schulz: That's awful.
Christine Schiefer: And he's been out there looking for her, thinking she's alive somewhere and they're gonna reunite.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible. So Shawna's death seems to also match Dennis's profile, but there really is no public evidence confirming this link yet. Dennis's daughter Kerri is actually actively working with investigators to follow these leads. So she's also like actively trying to help police put... Keep her dad in prison and answer questions they have. So at least, you know, she's onboard in that sense. Um, and she said, "If my dad has harmed somebody else, we need answers."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I feel like if you're her, honestly, there's probably no winning. Like, there's probably no way to win in the eyes of the public, you know what I mean? Like it's gonna be... You're gonna get criticized whatever you do. Um, if Dennis was indeed involved in these two cold cases, investigators hoped to finally bring justice and closure to the families, um, by finally you know, getting some links, finding some connection. Regardless of who is guilty, um, Rob hopes that the new attention on his sister's case will find some answers. He said, "Somebody knows something and maybe this will be what they need to bring them forward." And that is the case of Dennis Rader. The end.
Em Schulz: Sorry. I promise I'd do it last time.
[applause]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know that was kind of like taste... Not tasteful. I'm sorry. But I did...
Christine Schiefer: I know. Now it feels like we're clapping for... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For that asshole.
Em Schulz: That, that sounded... Uh, as it happened, I went, "Ugh, I don't know about, if that was good."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It almost feels like, "Hmm, maybe we're clapping for, that it's over and that he's in prison."
Em Schulz: That it's over. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There's, there's, there's some closure there, you know.
Em Schulz: Well, also, um, round of applause to you, 'cause that... I know that was, um, a topic that you've been thinking about for like, almost 400 episodes, so, um...
Christine Schiefer: I know. We almost thought we were never gonna do it, and then I found myself just in the rabbit hole as I were.
Em Schulz: Well, you did a very good job. I know that was a lot of pressure on you, and it was a lot of research for both of you, and it was a, you know... I'm very proud of you. You did a good job.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you, Em. That's so nice. I'm, I'm excited to have a beer with you during the after chat from my little mini-fridge 'cause I think I need one. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like...
Em Schulz: Let me go get...
Christine Schiefer: Man, that's 5:30... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'll go make myself uh, a little quick mocktail as I'm talking to you, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Hell, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and just before I forget, is there, um, oh, topic request, which maybe I've asked in the past, but I don't know. Um, I would love for you... Maybe this is like too small to be an episode, so it can be an after hours or after chat. After hours. I don't remember what we're doing. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't remember what we're doing. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Is uh... Is if you can explain the like, the sentencing stuff. Because like the fact that like he got like a minimum of 175, like, who... What calculator did that? Like who...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What, what lawyer said...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think there is an... I think that would be... I think...
Em Schulz: They're too overwhelming?
Christine Schiefer: I feel like that's the... There's no real... There's so many...
Em Schulz: Like, are they just arbitrarily picking a number? 'Cause like in my mind, it's like, if it's... If your minimum sentence is uh, 175 years, how is that any different than assigning him 5,000 years? Like I don't get it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like he's already gonna die in prison.
Christine Schiefer: So it's usually based on the charges... Like how many charges there are... How many crimes he's found guilty of, what the level of those crimes are, then they add up, and then a judge weighs in. I mean, I don't know. I'm no lawyer. I think, uh, I think even lawyers would have a very hard time explaining that process. Um...
Em Schulz: Well, if you ever wanna make it up and just like spew bullshit at me...
Christine Schiefer: I'll happily... I think I just did make it up. So I'll... [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's what... That's what, uh, after hours is for, where it's, it's not taken seriously, you just kinda give me your best guess, so...
Christine Schiefer: We just kind of bullshit our way through it. Yep.
Em Schulz: Alright. Well, I, I'll see you over there. I'll have a mocktail in hand and uh, we'll, we'll do some, some after hours. So if you wanna come hang out with us and hear us chit-chat, you are welcome to on Patreon. And...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna take the quiz. That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
