[intro music]
Em Schulz: Okay. Uh, I was, let's, let's start with one... Let's start out with one, with one thing.
Christine Schiefer: An ice breaker?
Em Schulz: Uh, I keep trying to say, let's get one thing straight, and I can't get the sense outta my head. So let's get one thing straight, Christine's looking real hot today. But...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. That's not what I expected to you to say. Thank you. I took a shower for the first time in six days, so that's where I'm at. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Also your lipstick color is slamming.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I picked up the wrong one and it's like incredibly dark, so, umm, you know, I'm just like vibing...
Em Schulz: It's...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just like...
Em Schulz: It's feeling vampiric.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's the one I wear on stage usually, 'cause it's like so intense...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But, you know, I figured why not just show up at my best for you today with clean hair and makeup on.
Em Schulz: Well, then let's get a second thing straight. Apparently, Christine's insides are not good, I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: I've done something... I've done something that I've really, here's what I'll say, I've really done it this time.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, this time, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I've really done it this time. Umm, I punctured my eardrum... [0:01:10.5] ____ gasp. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That was a bad time to take a drink. Wait, did you put more lemons in it or something?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: What did you do? What happened?
Christine Schiefer: I did the biggest gravest sin that Blaise could ever have ever begged me not to do, and I swore like upon marrying him like our vows were basically just don't put a fucking Q-tip in your ear. And I said, "Sure, I'll never do that." And I lied. Umm, and so I, I don't know, I must've done it with a Q-tip.
Em Schulz: You didn't even feel it happen?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I'm sure I just poked it one too many times. I don't know. But I, I, it was feeling weird and I was like, uncomfy. And I've, I... Okay. Here's the thing I did. I, eh-em, oh my God, I bought something off TikTok.
Em Schulz: I just gotta know.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like one of those cameras that you stick in your ear. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. That sounds, that sounds right up your alley. Umm... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I, I was so scared to tell Blaise, but then one day I was looking in my ear and I went, "That looks like a hole in my eardrum." And so then I said, "Blaise, I need you to look." And he says, "Let me get my autoscope." And I said, "Oh, I bought one off TikTok." [laughter] And he said, "Okay. As long as you're not putting Q-tips in your ear, that's fine." And I went, "Well, I've done both of those things." And he said, "Okay. Sit down." I have a photo. Actually maybe he'll let me post it. I don't know, it's a photo. He said, "Okay. Come upstairs." Like, uh, Leona was in bed. So he is like, "Come upstairs and I'll take a look at it." I walk upstairs to his office or like, I don't know his room. And, umm, he has like his like weight bench out.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he has a headlamp on and he's like holding [laughter] autoscope.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, "Take a seat." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Take a seat.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "Oh, no." He has a towel. He like puts it on. He looks in my ear and he is like, "Damn. Like there's so much ear wax in there." And I was like, "I know, but I keep using a Q-tip to try to get it out." He goes, "Christine, that's what I've been trying to tell you. Q-tips like compact the ear wax in, you're not getting it out."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, "Shit." So then he looks in it and I said, I don't know, it looked funny like something was wrong with this one. And he goes, "Babe, your eardrum's perforated." And I went, "Oh my God. Oh my God." And so, anyway...
Em Schulz: I like to think he says that to his patients too. He starts with...
Christine Schiefer: Babe.
Em Schulz: Babe every time. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. And he said, "Don't worry... "
Em Schulz: Babe, your eardrum's perforated.
Christine Schiefer: "I used to do this all the time in the ER." And I went, "Well, why would you have to do this in an ER?" And he's like, "Christine, 99% of the things I did in the ER were not emergencies." And I was like, "Okay, fair." So he looked at it and he said, "You need to go see an ENT just in case and like keep an eye on this." So he made me buy like waterproof earplugs for the shower. And basically it, it's supposed to heal on its own. I have to be really careful to not get it infected, which, you know, me pouring lemon and and juice into things is like that's a really big ask. And so he said, "Go... " So I made an appointment with an ENT. They had an opening next week in a few days. And basically, if it doesn't heal within, I think like a month, they have to do surgery. [laughter]
Em Schulz: [0:04:20.2] ____ gasp. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So fuck my life. Umm, I mean, I'm hoping it's just gonna heal. It's definitely still very much perforate, 'cause the thing I bought on TikTok, you can take pictures.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So I took a bunch of pictures of my eardrum being perforated.
Em Schulz: It sounds like you, you diagnosed yourself. It sounds, like...
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly what I did.
Em Schulz: It was actually useful.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly what I did. And I didn't need a license. I just needed a, umm, 14.99 and a TikTok account. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And, umm, you know, it's the sketchiest thing ever. But it was the only thing I've ever bought on TikTok. And I'll say it was worth it. Umm, so that's where I'm at. Everything hurts. My head just hurts. It feels like somebody like poked a hole in my brain 'cause I guess they kind of did. Umm, and it by someone, I mean, me, myself and I.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Hmm.
Em Schulz: So wait, does, so did it, does it feel well, uh, like it's perforated. Like when, I guess like, does it feel any different than like a normal headache? Like what's the...
Christine Schiefer: It, it's really weird 'cause I thought like, oh, if you... 'Cause Blaise said, oh, you'll know. Like he always said, you'll know if you've perforated your eardrum. Clearly I didn't. Umm, but apparently it hurts like right at the start, like when you first do it...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "Motherfucker, it hurts." Okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, oh, I've probably had those moments with a Q-tip. That must be what happened. Umm, and then it just feels, I don't know, it feels just like I have an ear ache sort of.
Em Schulz: Okay. Really?
Christine Schiefer: But I feel like now that I'm aware of it, I'm like constantly thinking about it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I just feel like I have just kind of a low grade headache all the time. Umm, but I kind of...
Em Schulz: That sucks.
Christine Schiefer: Always do anyway. So it's like, "Well, it's just everyday life." But, so I'm the big, my biggest stressor right now is that I'm gonna go into the doctor and have to tell her like, why I did what I did, even though I know I shouldn't have.
Em Schulz: I mean, you won't be the first person to say, I used Q-tips.
Christine Schiefer: That is, that is true. Umm, but, so this is my warning to everybody because I've been warned so many effing times. I have, I've known, I warn other people all the time, I'm like, "Don't put a Q-tip." But I thought, well... But I know, I know how to do it the right way. [laughter] Okay? I'm like, "I'm really careful. I'm really careful." Umm, please be fucking careful because those things, like literally just pop your fucking eardrum open and then you might have to get surgery. So be careful, please. You know, you could go to the doctor, get your ear wax flush out. It's easy. It doesn't hurt. And it's way more effective. And I'm doing that from now on. So, oh, I've made a big mistake. How are you Em?
Em Schulz: I'm fine. I have anxiety today and I, I don't know if it's for anything in particular, by the way, we have, umm, our tour coming back, so just...
Christine Schiefer: It couldn't be that.
Em Schulz: This is my reminder at the beginning of the show that, uh, please go get tickets for our shows. Uh, a lot of, uh, shows have already sold out. So, umm, if you want your last shot at seeing On The Rocks before we go on another tour. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's a little sad, isn't it?
Em Schulz: It's, yeah, it, well, it's sad because I think [chuckle] here for the booze literally lasted us like three years.
Christine Schiefer: That's why it feels weird to me.
Em Schulz: So this feels like a blink. Like which is funny because...
Christine Schiefer: It feels like, wait a second. We're done already? But we've been doing it for over a year or I guess almost a year?
Em Schulz: Yeah. We still missed a whole tour season with it, so, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So we should have been done with it by now. So, and it still feels...
Christine Schiefer: We're still dragging shit out.
Em Schulz: I know. We can't stop ourselves.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, I don't know if it's because of the tour or just Christmas in general anxiety. Umm, because, uh, I, I just, I have a lot to do before I leave and I leave relatively soon. And so I'm just thinking about like laundry and packing. And not only that, but I'm not coming back until after our first leg of the tour. So I have to pack all of our tour stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, yeah.
Em Schulz: And so I'm like, I just wanna make sure I don't forget anything. Our script. I gotta make sure I pack our fucking script LOL.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for fuck's sake.
Em Schulz: Umm, so it's just like a lot of little things that I... And then around the house, like I wanna like clean and stuff before I'm gone for a month and you know, it's just, uh, you know's just a lot. So...
Christine Schiefer: It's just a lot.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I, I feel a little anxiety. I also just took my anti-anxiety medication, so hopefully it simmers down in a little bit. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh what anti... Uh, propranolol?
Em Schulz: No, a Paxil. I don't know if it's working.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But, umm, it's a theory with my passing out, they are thinking that, uh, 'cause I, I mean I'm sure I needed anti-anxiety medication and I just wasn't taking it. But, umm...
Christine Schiefer: No comment.
Em Schulz: The running theory now is that COVID attacked my, uh, what was the, what's the, the, the nerve here? Your...
Christine Schiefer: Your vagus nerve.
Em Schulz: My vagus nerve. And, umm, which we already kind of suspected because it set off my SVT worse than it ever had been and all this other stuff. Umm, but on top of that, if it affected my vagus nerve, that would explain why maybe I'm having like, the theory is that I'm having adrenaline dumps that are, they were once controllable, but now that my vagus nerve is all outta whack that my, I have random bouts of like adrenaline shooting and then that's what caused me to pass out.
Christine Schiefer: Super.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So they're thinking if they put me on...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't an adrenaline supposed to make you like, run from a bear? Like why isn't it making you pass out? That seems like not helpful.
Em Schulz: No, I think it's because it's supposed to, umm, direct it to the right spots and it's not...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: Being directed to the right spots or something.
Christine Schiefer: All right. Okay. That does makes sense.
Em Schulz: Umm, I, I think that's the, so this is the new working theory that my doctors are doing where they're putting me on anti-anxiety medication to keep down the adrenaline dumps, so that way maybe I won't pass out. I don't know. It's...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it sounds like a good plan. I, hell if I know, I'm only an ear specialist at this point. [laughter] But I can see what Tik... TikTok says.
Em Schulz: So anyway, if you...
Christine Schiefer: Or you can go to Blaise's weight bench and take a seat and you...
Em Schulz: With this like cave mining headlamp. Yeah. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: You need to like see the photo. I'm gonna send it to you guys actually while we're talking because I was laughing so hard. I don't think he even knew I took a photo. So umm...
Em Schulz: So anyway, uh...
Christine Schiefer: I'll confirm with him before we post it.
Em Schulz: If you come, if you come to one of our shows and I pass out, I would like all of you to sign a statement for my doctor that it's not working. And so, uh, we have to try another, uh, course. So a course of action. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, umm, I think it's gonna be great. Do I sound convincing?
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: We'll see. No, not at all. Okay. Well, uh...
Em Schulz: Uh, well...
Christine Schiefer: You are gonna nail it. Okay? We're gonna nail it. All our health, uh, all our health, oh, I forgot. Also Geo had a bunch of chocolate and then vomited all night. So I haven't slept either. I just feel like the world is just, it's a mess. That's all.
Em Schulz: Well, I don't know what to tell you, Christine. I [laughter] I feel like I, my whole body just feels like a big ball of yarn in every little string is a different, like, overwhelm, you know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course.
Em Schulz: Of course uh, mercury's in retrograde right now, I think. So that would explain some of it. But...
Christine Schiefer: It's actually Mercury is retrograde. I'm just saying for before we get corrected.
Em Schulz: Mercury is retrograde?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's not in retrograde. It's just retrograde.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Okay. What about all the times that we've said it's in retrograde?
Christine Schiefer: Well, we were incorrect, unfortunately, but that's okay.
Em Schulz: Oh, is this something you just learned? 'Cause you're saying it like you've known it for a decade.
Christine Schiefer: No, I've known it for a while, but I just figure it never came up again. So I was like, "Well, now it came up." So here it is.
Em Schulz: All right. Well, tell everyone on Etsy who has shirts, you know, that say...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh I know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Including me. I think, I think I literally saw a design on there that says, uh... Anyway.
Em Schulz: Well, what did you drink this, uh, week, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'll be honest with you, I, umm, I hope it doesn't become relevant, but I did take half of a, umm, a Delta-8 gummy because my head is just like pounding. So I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna take like one of my little like, umm, daytime gummies. Umm, so I hope I don't act really cuckoo bananas. I, I shouldn't, I only took half of one, but I'm just drinking water with it.
Em Schulz: What's your pain level right now outta 10?
Christine Schiefer: Only look like a 4. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Four, three.
Em Schulz: This is where I should probably thank you publicly for letting us move our recording to now because I had a migraine the other day. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well, we're falling apart. And I think we both know that. So anytime something happens, we're like, just, just put the covers over your head just for rest, please. The cover.
Em Schulz: I know, but like the, the fact that I had a head thing and I was like such a wimp that I had to like bail...
Christine Schiefer: You were not, you had a migraine that's no fucking around with that. No, no.
Em Schulz: All right. Well, before your head thing turns into worse or your ear thing turns into two ears, like perforated or something.
Christine Schiefer: I think... Okay, here's my other thing. I think...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I might have accidentally perforated the other one.
Em Schulz: Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I think actually Blaise might have, but I don't think he will admit to that. So...
Em Schulz: Can you imagine it's like, it's like when you're cutting someone's hair and then you mess up and you hear them go, " [0:13:19.6] ____ gasp. Oh." Like I bet what if Blaise did that to your ear? You know?
Christine Schiefer: And then he is like, that wasn't me. It was the Q-tip.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't think he did. I'm, well, I mean, I'll find out in the next few days, so I'll find out. But if it is then I'm blaming him 'cause, uh, 'cause I can, 'cause I can.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah, that's a good reason.
Christine Schiefer: And I want to.
Em Schulz: Well, let me tell you, uh, a fun little tale while I have your attention before...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It fades quickly. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Before... I'm just horizontal.
Em Schulz: Umm, you could be horizontal if you'd like and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that would be nice. What if I just came down? I do have this new boom mic that like swings around.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You can, if you'd like.
Christine Schiefer: Just lower, lower it.
Em Schulz: If you could get the camera to face you, it would be a terrible angle. But if you really needed to just lay down, we could do that. [laughter] Maybe one day we have a nap episode where we tell our stories while lying down.
Christine Schiefer: That would be so cozy.
Em Schulz: That would be, actually we should do that.
Christine Schiefer: I like that. Maybe we'll do our after chat laying down.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Doesn't that sound nice? Or after hours? Sorry, I keep calling it the wrong thing.
Em Schulz: Our after something. Yes. Uh, okay. Let me tell you this story. It's a, it's a 101, but it's got some good, umm, uh, examples that are more story-like. So...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Have you ever heard of the Third Man Syndrome?
Christine Schiefer: No. Wait, maybe. No, I don't think so. It sounds familiar, but maybe I'm just inventing that.
Em Schulz: Interesting. It's, that's ironic because that's how a lot of people feel about Third Man Syndrome. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] No, I'm like, "Am I the third man?" I don't know.
Em Schulz: So Third Man Syndrome is a phenomenon that a lot of people report, uh, for centuries. And it's, umm, it's in dire circumstances. So I would like to test out the Third Man Syndrome when I'm on stage next time, since that is...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: A dire circumstance for me every night. But during traumatic experiences, much more dramatic, traumatic than like being on a stage. Umm, this is when some people remember an unknown person...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Helping them through the ordeal until they got to safety.
Christine Schiefer: Of course, I love these kind of stories.
Em Schulz: So once the person is removed from the situation, they discover that nobody was ever with them.
Christine Schiefer: [0:15:39.8] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: So it's like, was it a hallucination? Was it a guardian angel? What...
Christine Schiefer: It's like what glowing man with a halo?
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He was right there driving a truck.
Em Schulz: Jesus? No. Umm... [laughter]
Em Schulz: So it all starts, or the name at least starts in the early 1900s. Have you ever heard of a man named Ernest Shackleton?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I sure have. He's an explorer.
Em Schulz: Yes. Did you also have to read that book in middle school?
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea. What book?
Em Schulz: Oh, how do you know who he is?
Christine Schiefer: Didn't he go to Antarctica?
Em Schulz: Yeah, but how did you learn about him?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I just know it in my head. Maybe he's the third man. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It just, it just, I don't know where I, I actually have no idea. I just...
Em Schulz: That's wild. Isn't it funny, like sometimes you just have a random bit of trivia and you're like, how that entered my, my world. I'll never know.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yeah. And it feels good because usually if I am at trivia and I say, "I know this one," my brother and all his friends are like, "Yeah, we all know this one." And I'm like, "Well, shit." You all know who or congratulations. Umm...
Em Schulz: You're the Xandy Schiefer of this show.
Christine Schiefer: At this time I feel special.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I, I definitely don't know as much trivia as you do.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's, wait, what was the book? Maybe I did read the book and that's how I know I don't remember the book. But...
Em Schulz: I don't remember what the book was called. It was...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds boring.
Em Schulz: That's why I didn't read it...
Christine Schiefer: I probably didn't read it.
Em Schulz: In middle School. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: That's my guess. [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, let me, it let me... Earn, Earnest Shackleton book. Ugh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was, [chuckle] it was called in, no, I don't know what it was called.
Christine Schiefer: Are you talking about Ernest Hemmingway?
Em Schulz: No, no, no, no, no. It was, umm, it is Ernest Shackleton. But there was a book that I had to read and it looks like there's a bunch of different books. I don't know which one is the one that I had to read, but in sixth or seventh grade I had to read a book about Ernest Shackleton, which is how I know about him.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: And by the way, that the irony is like, I don't know even know what the book was fucking called. I'm pretty sure I cheated. I had to have, because...
Christine Schiefer: I mean I'm also pretty sure about that.
Em Schulz: I wrote a paper...
Christine Schiefer: Just based on your own stories.
Em Schulz: We all had to write a paper about this Ernest Shackleton book. And I... Like this teacher by the way, I like to her and one other teacher in my school, I'll call them Mr. Feeney because they were my teacher from like sixth grade until the day I graduated. Her and I did not like each other. We never did.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: At least that's my memory if she would like to weigh in. But we did not like each other.
Christine Schiefer: I hope not 'cause that would really scare me if our teacher started weighing in. I can't handle that.
Em Schulz: You Know, as I get older, I still follow her on Facebook and as I become like an adult, I'm like, "Oh, I kind of dig you." But as a kid, I did not dig her.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I totally get that. And I think it's probably too late to fo... To forge those relationships now, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, uh, I wrote a paper. We all had to write a paper and I was the only one who got a 100% on the paper.
Christine Schiefer: [0:18:21.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: And even the teacher, she stopped the class to announce it because it was so unheard of that I would do that well on a paper.
Christine Schiefer: Em, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: And I looked apparently shocked because she saw my face when she said, "The only person to get 100% is Em Schulz." And then I apparently made a face 'cause then she looked at me and went, I know. [laughter] In front of the whole class. I was like, I didn't see it coming either. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so what, so how did that happen?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I must have cheated. I don't, I can't imagine that I just got 100 out of nowhere. I don't know. I don't even remember writing it.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: I don't remember reading the book. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Do you remember print printing it from someone else's computer?
Em Schulz: I remember printing it. I remember... [laughter] I remember seeing a 100 on it and being like, "This, this can't be right." Like, it was like, maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Did your mom say anything?
Em Schulz: No. No. I wouldn't...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: I just kind of tucked it away. It was, anyway, that's how I know about Ernest Shackleton.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so intrigued. Okay.
Em Schulz: I, I don't have that paper anymore to even begin to tell you how I wrote it, but, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I bet she does.
Em Schulz: And I bet she remembers, at least a little bit. And that's it. Huh, Ernest Shackleton, this was in 1907. He, and for those who don't know who he is, he led an, uh, an expedit... An expedition in Antarctica that earned him knighthood in England. Umm, making him Sir Ernest Shackleton. With the name Ernest Shackleton, he was meant to have knighthood.
Christine Schiefer: He needed a title.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, a few years later, his most famous expedition was where he and his crew attempted a 1,700 mile transcontinental journey to completely cross Antarctica. But their ship...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Became entrapped in ice. This is what the book was about. Their ship became entrapped in ice and they were trapped there for nine months as the ice slowly crushed their ship.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Okay, well, maybe you did read that book, like maybe that was the only one you read 'cause you were like, this is actually kind of interesting.
Em Schulz: Maybe. Yeah. Umm, so they're trapped. Their... Ice, ice is slowly crushing their ship, and eventually the ice fully squeezed the hull apart and they had to abandon the ship.
Christine Schiefer: [0:20:30.2] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: And they had limited provisions and were still surrounded by ice. So they had to set up camp on drifting sheets of ice.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: They lived on these sheets of ice until the ice finally broke apart for them to navigate their smaller boats to an uninhabited island. And then Ernest led several crew members on a 16-day, 800 mile journey in a lifeboat to a whaling station to seek help. But once they got there, they then had to hike for 36 straight hours to the other side...
Christine Schiefer: [0:21:03.2] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Of the island for help. Like, and it's like...
Christine Schiefer: This is nightmare. Nightmare.
Em Schulz: Truly, like every... Can you imagine being told, "Oh, it's gonna be 1,700 miles." And then it's like, "Just kidding. We're actually trapped here for almost a year."
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And then, it's just kidding. Now we have to live on sheets of ice. Oh, just kidding. Then we have to do another 800 miles. Just kidding. Now we have to hike for 36 hours. And...
Christine Schiefer: And by the way...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: You're always wet and you're always cold the whole time.
Em Schulz: Oh, can you imagine?
Christine Schiefer: Every second, like every second you're cold and wet.
Em Schulz: How many of them must have lost toes? Like wet cold toes.
Christine Schiefer: I mean all, all. And then you hike 36 hours with no toes? Forget it.
Em Schulz: Oh, I literally...
Christine Schiefer: Leave me.
Em Schulz: I can't even hike on a 70 degree day on a flat road. Like I... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: In Los Angeles.
Em Schulz: Can't imagine. For 15 minutes I'm exhausted. I'm like, can we go back yet? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, are we at the whaling station yet? And we're at fucking, what's that place called?
Em Schulz: I feel like I could be...
Christine Schiefer: I don't even remember the name of the hike. What's the hike in LA, the observe... Where the observatory is?
Em Schulz: Oh, the Griffith Park? Griffith Park?
Christine Schiefer: Griffith Park. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like I could be sitting in my car in traffic and I'd be like, "I'm basically on a sheet of ice for nine months." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like floating away with no provisions. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh man. They would take one look at me and spit on me and I'd be like, "I understand." Umm...
Christine Schiefer: You would be a knight. I don't know what the opposite of being knighted is, but that would probably be what happened.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But they just take my own name away from me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They'd be like, "You don't deserve even that." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. No identity for you. Umm, in the end, after all of that, every single member of the crew was rescued safely.
Christine Schiefer: All of them survived.
Em Schulz: All of them. I thought for sure...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: At least 90% of them would be dead.
Christine Schiefer: I would have thought...
Em Schulz: Like it was just Ernest Shackleton standing alone by the end.
Christine Schiefer: He left. Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm honestly very surprised by that. Wow.
Em Schulz: I feel like I, I'm sure, I'm sure like someone's gonna call me on and be like, there is. There is. But I feel like this story is wild enough that there should be more movies about it. Like recently, like more like, like they should...
Christine Schiefer: Like modern...
Em Schulz: Like revive it, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Let's do it.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Who's gonna play Ernest?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you read the book.
Em Schulz: I'll play the ice sheet.
Christine Schiefer: Can I just sit on you? [laughter] Oh, no. [laughter] I'm cold. [laughter] I think I got the part.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, no, you nailed it. You're, you're shoeing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Thank you. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, so Ernest later recalled during this whole trek having a strange experience where, where while hiking, he kept feeling as if there was an extra presence with them.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: He even wrote in his journal that, "During that long and wracking march, it seemed to me often that there were four, not three." 'Cause this was at a time when he only brought three with him.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Or no, he brought two. Two with him, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Two.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. Got it. Gotcha. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Uh, he only brought some of them to get help for the rest of them. Umm, so yeah, he thought there were four, not three.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Later, the other men told Ernest the exact same thing had happened to them where...
Christine Schiefer: [0:24:03.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: They could have sworn there were four of them instead of three. Even though Ernest himself had never mentioned this phenomenon to them.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, that is creepy.
Em Schulz: In 1922, there was a poem by TS Elliot published about, umm, about the Ernest Shackleton story.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And the poem was called The Wasteland.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And in it, he alluded to Earnest's story of there being a fourth person.
Christine Schiefer: [0:24:29.1] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Umm, for artistic license I guess he changed it from a fourth person to a third person just to like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I like that. I had a feeling that's what... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just I guess... It made the poem flow a little better, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but in the poem, he says, "Who was the third who walks always beside you? When I count, there are only you and I together, but when I look ahead up the white road, there is always another one walking beside you. Uh, gliding wrapped in a brown mantle hooded, I do not know whether a man or a woman, but who is that on the other side of you?"
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And it was just this, "Oh. There's a, a random third person who keeps following us." And this poem is where we get the phrase "Third Man Syndrome".
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: So now, uh, several people have come forward in books, interviews, and online to share their own third man stories. And when I say several, I mean like by the thousands, like so many people have had.
Christine Schiefer: It's a handful. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just like a, just like a bit, a few.
Christine Schiefer: So there's a lot of these extra men, extra person people.
Em Schulz: Yeah. First of all, if thousands of people are having this experience, is this one-third man...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly my question.
Em Schulz: Just like continuously on the clock? Or are there a bunch of these people and like a guild?
Christine Schiefer: There's gotta be a bunch... A guild. [laughter] Yeah, there's gotta be a guild for sure. For sure. Yeah, no doubt.
Em Schulz: Sometimes the third man is just a feeling or just like a presence of being watched or feeling followed, and it's never threatening. You just feel like someone's there. Sometimes it feels like there's someone missing where five people can be out camping and they feel like a sixth person is supposed to be there and they keep expecting another person, even though they count that everyone's there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: Some people have actually taken that, umm, so far that, let's say they have like five people coming over and they'll make intentionally a sixth plate assuming that someone else is coming and then they'll realize that it wasn't necessary to make that extra plate, like they...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I've done that, but it's 'cause I don't know how to count very well, but I can see why that would be very alarming if you were like, "Wait a minute, I got this wrong."
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'd be like, "Is the third man actually my second dinner?" Is that what's happening?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say, I could sit in both, if you have extra. You know, that's not a problem.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm my own third man today.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly, what I'm, I'm my own third woman today. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Capital W. Some people experiencing this, uh, have actually had visions and they have felt like, umm, someone was actually with them. In 1933, there was a guy named Frank Smith who was attempting to summit Mount Everest.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, that's your first mistake, but okay.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, I was like just... If anyone ever asked me...
Christine Schiefer: Everyone wants a fucking book about them and there are big expeditions, like Jesus.
Em Schulz: Look, all I'm gonna say is, when I look at what my future holds, I could have a day left, I could have... I don't know, 80 years? No, 70. But, [laughter] but when I tell you with confidence, I will die not having climbed Mount Everest and I'm okay... And I'm okay with that. And that's...
Christine Schiefer: That's powerful.
Em Schulz: Like there's just some things I know I won't do on this Earth. And I've already made peace with it, I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: And I've not, I've done more than made peace, I've happily embraced it.
Em Schulz: Happily embrace it. I like, I'm, there's, I can't... There's so many things I'll never do and I don't even wish it for myself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let, like leave that to the people who want boring books written about them.
Em Schulz: I don't think I'll climb any mountain. Like even if it's an easy one, like, I don't even have to use my hands. Like I just don't wanna do it.
Christine Schiefer: Why would you? Unless we're stranded on an ice cap and you need to find a whaling community, then maybe, but otherwise, I don't see why you would ever have to do that.
Em Schulz: I'm also pretty positive that in life, I will never be on a sheet of ice, I wouldn't put myself in a situation where I could be on a sheet of ice, you know?
Christine Schiefer: The only... That, that, that part gets to me nervous though, 'cause I'm thinking, you know, global warming, I don't know, all these polar bears getting trapped, like, where California breaks off, you know, becomes...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It's all possible.
Em Schulz: I guess that's possible, but if it's survive or climb... Like don't survive or climb Mount Everest, guess what I'm not doing?
Christine Schiefer: I'll see you on the other side. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Get your Ouija board out. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Not of the mountain. Other side of this life, not the mountain, yeah.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Get your Ovilus somewhere. I'll say hi over there. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Your husk is waiting.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So in 1933, Frank Smith decides he's gonna climb Mount Everest and he's attempting the summit, he only falls short by 1,000 feet. At this point, honestly... Like, I would be so pissed. I'll be like...
Christine Schiefer: Give it to him. Just give it to him.
Em Schulz: Not only did I not climb it, I was 1,000 feet, I was 1,000 feet away.
Christine Schiefer: Give, just give it to him. Come on.
Em Schulz: Honestly, there has to at least be like a, like a red ribbon that they get inside the blue ribbon, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like a, although I mean... I feel like getting a runner-up on that kind of thing would be like much more hurtful to them, you know? Like that will stop.
Em Schulz: You least need like... I don't know. A trophy. A pat on the back, like something.
Christine Schiefer: Like participation award.
Em Schulz: Let someone cut a ribbon at the opening of a festival.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! With the big scissors. Yeah, that's good.
Em Schulz: I think that's good.
Christine Schiefer: That's important.
Em Schulz: Quite maybe not a key to the city, but like a key to a neighborhood in the city.
Christine Schiefer: A key to the suburb.
Em Schulz: Uh, see, that's not that bad.
Christine Schiefer: Let's do it.
Em Schulz: Uh. He fell... He falls short by 1,000 feet after the climb goes totally wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Also falls short, you're saying he falls short of the goal, not like he falls 1,000 feet, right? Like I know that that's not what you're saying, I'm just triple confirming the fall, the falling.
Em Schulz: Yes, I understand. No, I see where the confusion could be. No, he really just... He just fell short.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like I get a little spike every time you say he falls and I'm like, "Ooh, well. Okay, he falls short." Got it.
Em Schulz: I gotta check my vagus nerve. Am I also spiking?
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Your adrenaline.
Em Schulz: Umm, no, he like, he really just doesn't make it by 1,000 feet. He was separated from his party, and he even remembers like while being stuck and not knowing where to go, he got out a piece of food and he broke in half to hand it to somebody knowing that he was alone, but he just felt like somebody else near him needed to eat too.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. So the third man is hungry?
Em Schulz: And he wrote... Right? Well...
Christine Schiefer: Like what?
Em Schulz: Now I'm glad that someone did leave extra plate of food out for them...
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right. It makes sense.
Em Schulz: In his diary, Frank wrote, "All the time that I was climbing alone, I had a strong feeling that I was accompanied by a second person, the feeling was so strong that it completely eliminated all loneliness I might otherwise have felt." So the whole point so far of the third man is like, he just makes you feel safe when like there's really very limited reason to feel safe. Umm, if you're...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean...
Em Schulz: At 1,000 feet from the top of Mount Everest, and you're alone. I wouldn't feel safe. [0:31:24.8] ____ gasp. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Certainly not. I, I just... It reminds me of Jesus walk, you know, the footsteps and his walking... Why doesn't He pick you up at that point.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just 1,000 more feet.
Em Schulz: Yeah, couldn't a miracle happened up there. No one would notice. It's literally Everest.
Christine Schiefer: If someone like, carried you up Mount Everest, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, come on, step it up. Uh, he even felt like he was tethered to this companion by a rope and felt safe as if someone would catch him if he slipped, he truly believed that the rope would secure him because someone was watching out for him.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Frank knew this wasn't true, but he couldn't overcome the feeling and it comforted him through the event, and when he finally was within sight of a camp and safety, he said that that feeling of a companionship totally snapped away from him, and he suddenly felt alone for the first time.
Christine Schiefer: What the hell? That is creepy.
Em Schulz: The experience aligns with the way Third Man Syndrome often, uh, is referred to as a supportive presence that helps a person through, and like in Frank's story, uh, once real help arrived, the person realizes that the third man is nowhere to be seen, and they've been alone the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: In 1916, a guy named Harry Stoker, who was the cousin of the Dracula author, Bram Stoker, he escaped as a prisoner of war with two companions, and the three of them navigated hundreds of miles through the mountains without supplies. They only traveled at night and hid during the day to make sure they were never seen. And one night in treacherous conditions, a fourth man appeared and started walking with them as if he'd been there the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: [0:33:07.8] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: It didn't even occur to them that he could be a bad guy or he would be chasing after them. They were never afraid of the sudden extra man. Umm, when they would stop at night he, this man would stand just far away enough, but you could see him in the dark just out of sight. And when they started moving, he would get back in line and follow behind them just to watch them.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. What the f...
Em Schulz: And when morning came...
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's creepy that people, they're, they're all seeing, you know, they're all feeling it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, if it were one person, I'd be like, "Oh, it's... "
Em Schulz: Seeing it. I mean, this guy this time, they're seeing it.
Christine Schiefer: Seeing it. Yeah. What the hell?
Em Schulz: When morning came, the extra man was gone and his presence had only given comfort for them to make it through the night. And it was a particularly rough night on their journey.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah. All of them said that they could see him in the distance. He never got too close, but they never felt threatened.
Christine Schiefer: That is so weird.
Em Schulz: And, uh, so that's just a sign that the third man can also be an, an active participant. Umm, it's not just a...
Christine Schiefer: Right, like actually...
Em Schulz: Presence.
Christine Schiefer: Hanging around.
Em Schulz: The most famous case of the Third Man Syndrome was on 9/11.
Christine Schiefer: [0:34:14.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: And there was a guy named Ron DiFrancesco, and he was leaving work from the South Tower's 84th floor just when the plane hit.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, and it hit right below him, and the wing of the plane cut through his floor.
Christine Schiefer: [0:34:32.6] ____ gasp. Jesus.
Em Schulz: Uh, the floors below him were on fire. He tried going down the stairs, but it was impossible because of the smoke and the flames. So he tried to run up the stairs thinking he might find a different exit, but that was also impossible. He could not see anything. He could barely breathe. He had truly just gave up. He just laid down in the stairwell and just accepted defeat. Umm, and then he...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: He heard of someone say to him, "You have to get up. You have to get up."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And felt someone grab him, lift him up, and actually guide him through the open flames.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: And he got down 70 flights of stairs...
Christine Schiefer: [0:35:12.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Through the smoke, and he couldn't see a single thing. He just followed this guy that was helping him. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Got down 70 flights of stairs and he was the last person to escape the tower before it collapsed.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: He was one of only four people in the South Tower above the 81st floor to escape. And he found out after the fact that nobody had helped him out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So now it's not just like, "Oh, you can see him," but there are instances where this third man is straight up saving you, fully saving.
Christine Schiefer: He'll save your life.
Em Schulz: Umm, there are other peop...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, goosecam.
Em Schulz: There were other people all over the internet who share their experiences. Reddit is a great place, if you'd like to read some Third Man Syndrome stories.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, one user named Bobbin for Bears.
Christine Schiefer: Love it.
Em Schulz: Uh, said that their father once fell off a cliff in a remote area and broke his back.
Christine Schiefer: [0:36:14.7] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Umm, and he was just stuck on this cliff. And it was this small, small town in Alaska. And he broke his back. While he was just laying there thinking he was never gonna get help...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: A young girl climbs down the cliff...
Christine Schiefer: [0:36:30.3] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Finds him and sits with him for hours, and she keeps petting his head, keeping him warm, telling him stories to distract him, and even takes her own coat off and puts it on him. So he remembers her coat on him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Eventually, someone spots him from the water and gets help. And when help came, he asked about the little girl who mysteriously went away, and they say, "There was never anybody here. There was no girl here. This is a really small town. We know everybody in this community. There is no girl like that."
Christine Schiefer: And, and the coat, I assume was gone.
Em Schulz: The coat was gone.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck, dude. I love that she had to climb down the mountain, though. She's like, "I can't just appear. I gotta make this look realistic."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Let me climb down this mountain cliff real quick.
Em Schulz: She can't just like, I dream of Jeanie just blink in. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Dozens of people have shared nearly identical stories about car accidents where they were unable to move or get out and they would hear a car pull over. They'd even hear voices telling them that help was coming. And a lot of experiences that I even read on Reddit, umm, people say that there's someone who reaches into the car to rub their shoulders or hold their hands while they wait for help. Umm, this is one I just found, umm, right before we recorded. This is from someone named RocketKT69. And their story says, "I was in a really terrible car accident a few years ago, and I was stuck in the car. They had to cut me out. During it, I came to, and there was a woman who had climbed into the rear seat behind me... "
Christine Schiefer: [0:38:02.7] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: "And was holding my shoulders telling me I was going to be okay and that help was coming. I thought she stayed with me until I blacked out. And I woke up to a fireman cutting the door off and pulling me out. The fireman, paramedics and my mother who had gotten there all quickly said, there was no woman at all. That traffic had gone around and no one had stopped because the fire department was only a few blocks down the road. I can still hear her voice and I know she was touching me, but no one saw her."
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Do they have any theories like, was it a loved one they think or they just said they have no clue who she was.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We'll, we'll talk about that for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, but there are sev, there are several stories like that on, uh, on Reddit where it's specifically like, a lot of times it's a woman, umm, but someone will just show up and just get in the car with you, will hold your hand, will tell you, "Hey, you know, you're gonna be okay, just, you know, people are coming, help is on the way. Just hang on." There's also a lot of people who say that there's a third man voice that they hear predicting things...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So they'll say like...
Christine Schiefer: I've heard that.
Em Schulz: Like, "Slow down. Don't, you know, slow down, slow down." Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Don't, don't go, like a green light, like don't drive. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then they find out that had they gone, they would have been like T-boned. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, semi drive-through. Right. Right. I've heard that definitely.
Em Schulz: So that might be the third man, that might be a completely other different thing.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah, so there's a lot of stories, especially about this one woman during car accidents where she will be there the entire time until you black out and when you come to, no one has ever seen her...
Christine Schiefer: And they think, they think it's the same woman?
Em Schulz: A lot of the stories are her... I don't know if it's the same woman.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: But a lot of people say that, umm, either she just appears in your car or they even like have the whole real life experience of like hearing a car pulling over, hearing her get out of the car, the car door slamming her...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Walking over and her and the car are, are just totally phantom. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Uh, and other experiences, yeah, people have seen someone reaching and rub their shoulders or hold their hand, and one incident, uh, or many according to Reddit, a woman told the crash survivor that the car was on fire and they needed to get out, and the survivor was too injured and too weak, but the woman helped pull them out of the crash and moved them to safety, and when they woke up, the woman was never there, he has no idea how he left the car, how they got out...
Christine Schiefer: Wow, like how physically how that could have happened. I've heard the stories like that about like those... Actually, on Jim Herald's Campfire, I feel like I've heard a bunch of those, umm, where people say, you know, there was this truck, this huge white truck and it pulled over like a semi, like an 18-wheeler and this guy like helped pull me out. And then I was unconscious and later the, you know, emergency services said like there was no semi, like we would have seen a semi...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, feel like that's another phenomenon, like the ghost trucker coming to help you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so that might be under the umbrella of third man, umm, but a lot of people have that very similar experience of like they have no idea how they got pulled out of wreckage that they shouldn't have survived, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, wow.
Em Schulz: People have also seen a third person when being rescued from drowning, they say that they've seen and felt hands reach into the water and drag them out...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And bring them to shore. In one story, there was a hiker who was lost and had gone hypothermic, and they were about to lie down to go to sleep in the snow, which would have actually killed them, and in that moment...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Another hiker showed up and led them back to the trail...
Christine Schiefer: [0:41:34.4] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Where the rest of their group was. And...
Christine Schiefer: It's gives me goosecam that they're like dressed like they're supposed to be there, you know? Like they're, they're another hiker, they're just a little girl on the path with a coat, like, the, you know, it's like they're like materializing as, as though they were like a real person just walking along, which is so creepy.
Em Schulz: I like to think they have like a costume room, like a wardrobe room.
Christine Schiefer: Right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And they're like, "Oh, today, I gotta go be a paramedic."
Christine Schiefer: I'll bring my parka. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, there are also stories I saw on Reddit of them dressed as fireman, and so then they're like, "Oh, who's the one that helped me?" And then that guy has never been there, you know? So yeah, it is weird that they really fulfilled the role.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like, they're like committing to the bit. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It's also like, I mean, how many times have we said that like maybe aliens show up as a form that's less scary for us, so maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, something we can understand. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's something... Yeah, that makes us feel safer in the moment.
Christine Schiefer: Comforting. Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, when that one hiker got lost and another hiker brought them back to their group, that lost hiker then told the group, "Hey, this guy rescued me." And that guy vanished, and there were no tracks in the snow indicating there was ever a second person.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, God. This is creeping me out.
Em Schulz: One person said that when they were a kid, they were choking and they felt a hand grab them and drag them into another room where an adult could save them.
Christine Schiefer: [0:43:00.3] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Which I love that there are some ghosts who are like, "I can't even save you but get your ass in here." Like get over here.
Christine Schiefer: I never learned the Heimlich, that wasn't part of my training. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like I can like, I don't know, make a cabinet door open by itself, but I can't push that food out of your throat. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I can like use the jaws of life to get you out of the upside out the car, but I don't know how to do the Heimlich. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I like to think that that kid just got yeeted into a kitchen or something of this... Just like... Get in there...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Come on.
Em Schulz: Uh, it's clear that the Third Man Syndrome is a, a very real phenomenon since thousands of people have had this experience, but nobody knows who or what the third man is. Many people think that the third man can manife... Can manifest as nothing more than a feeling, like I've already said, people have seen them as a distant shadow, or he just straight up, he or she or they straight up help you physically.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, some people think it's a divine experience, like a guardian angel, some people literally think it's Jesus coming in like a certain form that makes you feel safer. People have believed that it's a deceased loved one, uh, who's looking out for them and has the ability to intervene in incredibly specific situations, but what's interesting about that is that the third man is almost never described as someone that people recognize.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, right.
Em Schulz: It's always a stranger.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Which freaks me out even more because I've always heard that rumor that like your brain can't actually create a face out of thin air, like it has to come from a pulled memory.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, I was literally thinking about that this morning, 'cause I was thinking about dreams as I do, and I was like, man, it's so fascinating. I, I don't know how real that is, but I always learn that as well, that like, your subconscious can't create a new face or a new identity that you haven't like already seen.
Em Schulz: Yeah. By the way...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Let me, hold on. Ask me... Let me finish this first because I don't have much left. But I, I wanna jump back onto that 'cause I have a creepy thing.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. So they say it could be a loved one, but it's never someone you recognize. So maybe it's someone from a past life that still watches out for you. Maybe it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's interesting.
Em Schulz: Or like, if this is where, this is not an actual theory other than my own, but in the world of like, time is a construct. Like maybe this is a future person that you don't actually know, but somehow you spiritually are already linked to.
Christine Schiefer: You're like connected. Yeah. Woo.
Em Schulz: Umm, nobody seems to know in the moment who the third man is. Only that they are always comforting. And some say it's just a helpful spirit who was in the right place at the right time and decided to lend a hand. Umm, it could also be completely internal because as we know from the gift of fear from Gavin Becker, uh, [laughter] we often know way more than we think we do.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Right. True.
Em Schulz: And in a dire situation, and we've totally given up our thoughts may give way to our subconscious, which takes over.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And gets us a safety. So it could just be...
Christine Schiefer: It's just a survival instinct. Like...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Keep walking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Also, in extreme cases, our will to live might be overpowered by adrenaline and manife... Manifest as hallucinations that compel us to keep moving, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, if, if that is our brains, our brains are pretty fucking genius in that case.
Em Schulz: Right?
Christine Schiefer: You know? Like, it's manifest...
Em Schulz: It's like if you think you can't do it...
Christine Schiefer: The firefighter [laughter] to pull you out of this car.
Em Schulz: I mean, it really does feel like, umm, what's the right word? Personifying, uh, some sort of hope for yourself. Like, if you don't think you can do it, this person does. You know? So like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like creating a person...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Something outside of yourself. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Creating someone to believe in you.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: I mean, it also, if you're in a dire situation or in a traumatic event, I think that's cause for like a psychological snap of reality. Like to just all of a sudden...
Christine Schiefer: Sure, sure. Dissociating in a way that you're hallucinating. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like seeing something that isn't there because you're having a fucking nervous breakdown. I would. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: And you're freezing to death. Yeah. I mean, I, I feel like that would make some sense.
Em Schulz: Uh, and this doesn't come from any concrete research, by the way. This is all just people's theories because they can't really research something unless they put people in like, near-death experiences.
Christine Schiefer: Just like, here fall short off this cliff, 1,000 feet and then... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I could imagine a researcher just like Chuck Norris kicking someone off of Mount Everest and just [laughter] lighting them on fire or something and being like, "Well... "
Christine Schiefer: Like anybody there, do you see anybody? [laughter] Remember to write it in your journal. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter] What if you just found out now that like Ernest Shackleton's sheets of ice was just a long con from the government. It was just like testing...
Christine Schiefer: [0:47:38.2] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: The extreme bandwidth of a person.
Christine Schiefer: They just put 'em on a sheet of ice and they were like, let's see what this guy does. We should give him an, we should knight him afterward.
Em Schulz: Yeah, 1,700 miles of hiking was mad enough. Let's do another 800. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: Others suggest that this is some sort of deep genetic ancestral knowledge that we can only tap into when our minds are completely empty. AKA when we, when we've given up. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Which I thought was super cool though. Like, "Oh, maybe these are actually ancestors you have no idea of that are looking out for you."
Christine Schiefer: That's powerful.
Em Schulz: One psychologist named Dr. Lisa Johnson encourages patients in trauma recovery to cultivate inner characters or voices of comfort to help them out, which even outside of therapy, people daydream about themselves in situations they usually wouldn't be in talking to people they usually wouldn't talk to.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, for some reason, humans like to find comfort in imagining outside encouragement than trying to encourage themselves.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, interesting.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: I think that's probably why it's so effective when a therapist use that technique of like your inner child, like talk to yourself...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: As a child because you would talk to them differently than you talk to yourself internally.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, and I mean, and they think that, that that could lead to us just having an extreme coping mechanism in...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Really bad circumstances where our minds go beyond imagining and truly believing someone is there to support us. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right.
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, that is the Third Man Syndrome.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That was crazy. That is wow. That was a good story. What what, what were you gonna tell me that was creepy?
Em Schulz: Oh, I had a dream a while ago that I thought was super eerie. And I know usually you can't, umm, you're not supposed to be, like we just said, you're not supposed to be able to create faces that you haven't seen and all that. I think I'm like at the very beginning of being able to lucid dream at the very, very...
Christine Schiefer: Ah, yes.
Em Schulz: At the very, very, very, like scratch scratch at the, the surface. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It's happening everyone.
Em Schulz: I'm not even trying, I think I'm just...
Christine Schiefer: Em and I are gonna hang out in the astral realm.
Em Schulz: We're gonna talk shit about all of you.
Christine Schiefer: Man, finally...
Em Schulz: No, Eva. No. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Finally daytime is not enough. We have to transcended to literal sleep to hang out now.
Em Schulz: Maybe that's why I've been so exhausted recently 'cause when I go to bed, you just still don't shut up. Umm... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You just slumber party it.
Em Schulz: It's like, "Oh my God, I'm so tired." Umm, I... So I, I, when I say I am like kind of starting to control them is, uh, I'm at least becoming aware of when things don't seem right and I ha...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: I can't, I can't fully click like, "Oh, I'm in a dream." I'm just like, "Oh, that doesn't make too much sense. Oh, my...
Christine Schiefer: That's it. That's so close.
Em Schulz: Like, I had a dream where I was like back at the prop house and I was answering a phone and everything seemed totally normal, but the only difference was that phones would be hung upside down. Like, it was like... [laughter] It was like a black-eyed kid wrote the script and it was like, yeah. And then they hung the phone upside down [laughter] So like the, so like the cord was sticking up instead of hanging down.
Em Schulz: Right.
Em Schulz: And I remember thinking like, "That's fucking weird." And I remember thinking like, "Oh, but it's a prop house." Like, maybe this is like a weird prop. And then like, I didn't.
Christine Schiefer: I love that your brain's like, "No, no, I got this. It's fine." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. I wonder though if like, whoever controls dream world was like "Uh-oh, they're onto us." And like, like they had to shift gears real quick, but umm...
Christine Schiefer: Turn your phone back. Turn your phone back.
Em Schulz: Right side. [laughter] I had a dream recently though, where everyone there looked really creepy. Like everyone's face looked like it was kind of melting off of them and like...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Like wax people or something. And they all were staring at me and didn't have eyeballs.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And I remember, again, I didn't... And part of me must have known somewhere that it was a dream, but I didn't know at face value. It was a dream.
Christine Schiefer: You didn't like get fully conscious in it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But I remember seeing it and I remember looking at them and going, "This is freaking me out. You have to shift into a more human form if you want me to interact with you."
Christine Schiefer: [0:51:50.6] ____ gasp. Eww, umm.
Em Schulz: And then I, like, in my dream, I, I blinked and all of a sudden there were people standing in the exact same clothes, standing in the exact same position, all looking at me in the exact same way. Like they had completely morphed to be more palatable.
Christine Schiefer: They're, like, "Is this any better?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. But I said to them, I remember saying like, I knew enough that in my head I said, "You have to shift into a more human form if you want me to interact with you." And then I blink and they had shifted into people.
Christine Schiefer: Did you interact with them after that?
Em Schulz: I think so.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: But it was, it was weird that I at least was able to, first of all, that should have been my first clue because I can't fucking confront any conflict in real life. But like, when I'm looking at them...
Christine Schiefer: No, you were just like, I have something to say.
Em Schulz: I was like, "Y'all have to fucking change your ugly ass faces. Umm, you look fucking creepy." [laughter] But no, I, I remember thinking like, I must be aware enough to know that they can shift and that, but then it made me freak out even in the dream, 'cause I was like, what does this mean about them? Like, what do they look like in real life?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like what's their real form?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, I wanted to bring that up earlier and I totally for forgot until we talked about dreams. So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, if you do want to lose a dream, if you write down your dreams, like hand write them, it starts happening really often.
Em Schulz: Mm. Okay. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Because you're like, just aware that your dreams. So if you write down your dreams, like that should jumpstart all of it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's crazy. You have to come over to my house if you at least a dream. I went to your apartment once, remember? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Oh, right, right, right. Yes. I'll have to fly over there. Okay. My arms will be so tired. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's all I wanna hear. Wow. Okay. Well that was a great story. Umm, I have a story for you today. It's kind of a mix of, it's, well, it's a mix of, there's like a silver lining, I guess at the end, which we don't often get with true crime stories.
Em Schulz: I like knowing that there's going to be not, it's not gonna have the worst ending. I mean, after BTK, I'm glad that we're having a, whatever you can consider a palate cleanser in the true crime world.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And it's not a palate cleanser for sure. 'cause it still is unfortunately a tragic murder. But, umm, it's definitely, like I said, it, it at least has like a hopeful, somewhat hopeful ending, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which, which is rare, so we can at least know that, umm, going into this. But this is the Clouse family murder, and it's spelled C-L-O-U-S-E. So let's backtrack to 1978. Uh, a young woman named Tina Lynn. She's 15 years old, and she lives in a town called Smyrna Beach in Florida. Oh, I'm sorry. New Smyrna Beach in Florida. Not the old one.
Em Schulz: Of course not.
Christine Schiefer: Of course not. And unfortunately, she had lost her father at a young age, so she was growing up with the rest of her family down in New Smyrna Beach. And it was there that she met Howard Dean Clouse Jr, who often went by Dean or Junior. And Dean was four years older than Tina. So a couple years earlier, Dean had unfortunately caught the tail end of, umm, a sort of cultish group called the Jesus People Movement. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Trust me, the names are just gonna get weirder from here on out. Okay. Uh, the Jesus People Movement, which was an evangelical Christian revival that was like catered to young people. I mean, I think we all know, like the '70s were very much a heyday for cults [laughter] because...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, hippie movement, people were finding themselves and breaking away from the mainstream. Umm, and Dean was definitely one of those guys who was easily, I wouldn't say easily, but who was open to being part of these kind of groups.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the Jesus People Movement had major momentum in the '60s, and then mid to late '70s it started to slow down. Umm, it was a very new age movement and you know, that basically the crowd of people that it attracted were what you would call probably hippies back in the day.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They baptized their new believers at beaches, and then they traveled with like-minded friends to spread the word. Umm, they played rock music and threw parties.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So this was very much like a new twist on religion that like young people could kind of.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Attach to.
Em Schulz: It's feeling a little, umm, I know it's not in this venue, but it feels a little mega churchy.
Christine Schiefer: Like one bajillion percent. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like I could have slipped into this real quick, if, especially like, at a time where it hadn't existed before, so I couldn't have like, seen the pattern. I would've been like, "Oh, wow, rock and roll. Cool. Yeah. This is a religion I can vibe with," you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. And I feel.
Em Schulz: A group I can vibe with.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And that, that, that was their whole thing. It was like a cool vibe. Like we're not like every other cult and religion.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so some of them were pro psychedelics and others were staunchly sober, so they didn't really like fall in line on that front. Umm, but just generally they were like the cool place to be, the cool group to travel with. And, umm, you know, they, they took a new take on, uh, the tenets of Christianity. Uh, and of course this movement, uh, led to several fringe groups who were more extreme.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, the base, like, the core of it as, as we see, I feel like with so many of these kind of, umm, groups is like the, at the base, at the core of it, it's like hunky-dory, you know, like they're, they're, they're playing rock music. They're loving each other, they're taking care of each other. And then like it devolves into fringe groups.
Em Schulz: Fringe. Fringe, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That take things to dangerous extremes and give everybody else a bad name. So that's kind of what was going on here. Umm, one of these fringe groups was nomadic and they would travel from town to town. And when Dean was 16, he encountered this group for the first time. So his mom got a call, uh, while she was at work one day. And, uh, the call was from Dean's sister Cheryl, and she's like, uh, "Mom Dean brought over, uh, a group of people and I'm not comfortable with them being here." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, oof.
Christine Schiefer: Like, brought them to the house. And.
Em Schulz: How many people do you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Dean's mom rushes home and there are four strangers in the house.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was a man, a woman, and two children.
Em Schulz: [0:58:40.5] ____ gasp. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: All four were barefoot and were dressed in white robes. [laughter] It sounds like fourth man or third man, but like.
Em Schulz: It's his whole family he brought with him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. [laughter] They're like, "Today we were wearing our robes."
Em Schulz: It's bring your family to Work Day. And the third man is on high alert. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So these people are in her house. She rushes home, she's like, Dean to her son, Dean, "Why did you bring these people over?" Umm, and he says, "Oh, they're just staying over for one night." And she's like, "Oh no, they're not." [laughter]
Em Schulz: You'd be like, there's a hotel down the road. They can go there.
Christine Schiefer: Literally, I am the still the boss of this house. So the members who called each other brother and sister, sort of like nuns or monks or like, you know, people in a religious [0:59:27.5] ____ gasp, order.
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, they had recently arrived in the area and they were part of the, part of a fringe sect of the JPM movement, which many considered a cult.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so they had recently arrived in the area, and Dean's family had actually noticed them around town because they carried their bed rolls. They wore white robes. They didn't wear shoes. I mean, it's very...
Em Schulz: Yeah, they're not hiding. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They're they're not discreet.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They don't blend in. Okay. [laughter] And apparently the reason they didn't wear shoes is that they didn't eat meat or use leather. I mean, maybe there was just leather shoes in the '70s. I don't know. But it seems a little bit odd.
Em Schulz: I feel like you could have worn a slipper, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like, uh, I feel like there's a...
Em Schulz: A flip flop?
Christine Schiefer: If you're, if you can wear your robes, surely you can find a shoe. I mean...
Em Schulz: You could wear socks.
Christine Schiefer: You could wear socks. That's a great point.
Em Schulz: You could wear, you could figure it out. You know.
Christine Schiefer: You could figure it out, but they didn't. And so that became part of their sort of uniform. Umm, and people were nervous about this incoming crowd. Uh, some called them Jesus freaks. Umm, and you know...
Em Schulz: They do sound like they look like Jesus a little bit with their robes and bare feet. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. I think it's like an easy association to be like...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And especially 'cause their group is called Jesus People Movement, right? They're like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They're, they're the Jesus people, I guess. Umm, and I, I, you know, to be clear again, this is this fringe group that has kind of entered town and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Will potentially cause some problems. Uh, not the original core group. So Dean's mom said, "No, no, no, no, no. Dean, kick them out, please, uh... "
Em Schulz: They gotta go. They, they can go wherever they want, but they can't stay here.
Christine Schiefer: They gotta take those bare feet and trot on down the road to the motel. So she says, "You gotta get them outta here." But she does, she does give them provisions. She gives 'em food. She says like, you know, "You guys take care. I just don't feel comfortable. I have multiple children under this roof. And like, I don't want four strangers staying over." Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah, four mouths to feed who I was not prepared for? No, no, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And she, she did even feed them, but she said like, you can't sleep here. I don't feel like I trust you enough to be around my children. Which I think is totally fair. Umm, especially 'cause she had six children under the roof, so like, it was just not gonna happen.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, she gave them some food for the road and Dean was pretty disappointed. Umm, he was so drawn to this movement. Umm, I guess the way they described him was he wasn't a rebellious kid. Like, he wasn't like fighting back against tradition or anything like that, but he was very free-spirited. And so when he found something that he like gravitated toward, he just wanted to go, you know?
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And so his mom explained it as, he seemed like he was always looking for something in the world, in life.
Em Schulz: Like to belong or something?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe to belong. Umm, yeah, like just looking Yeah. For maybe a group or for somebody, you know, for some kind of acceptance, something. But she couldn't put her finger on what exactly it was. And she's, she thought actually maybe he didn't really know what it was either, but it felt like he was always like seeking, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think we know people who like, who are like that, who are kind of always exploring, always trying new things, meeting new people. And that's just kind of how his, uh, I don't know how his lifestyle went. So he followed after he, he, he kicks them out. He says, "My mom's not letting you stay." He follows after them outside to talk to them a little more. And after this day, he begins spending more time with them outside the house. Umm, a few weeks later, the group being nomadic left town, and so did Dean. Umm, unfortunately he left in the middle of the night without a word to his family.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it was unlike him to just run away from home. Umm, but still they were like, "Man, we knew he was into that group." Like, they weren't surprised. I guess they were just...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Disappointed that he had, you know, snuck out and run away.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: So Dean was a, you know, polite, responsible kid, but, and even though he was 16, he, well, I guess like probably most 16-year-olds, he wanted independence. He wanted to feel like a grown-up. He wanted to make his own choices. He was mad that his mom didn't let him like, you know, bring these people over to the house. So he left in the middle of the night. Eventually, he called home to reassure his family that he was okay. He actually started calling pretty regularly to touch base. And then one day, a few months after he left, Dean just showed up on the front doorstep, uh, back at home. He was barefoot in white robes, and he simply just started back up his old life. Like nothing had ever happened.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He basically said not a single word about his experience with that group, he just didn't talk about it.
Em Schulz: Ooh, shady.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right? Like, that can't be a good sign. I.
Em Schulz: I feel like I, like, tell me about your time. And he, and if he went, it was fine. I'd go, [1:04:30.6] ____ gasp, what happened? What happened?
Christine Schiefer: I, uh, I'd be like, "Okay, hold on. Let me make some tea. I think we need to have a long night of discussion."
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: But, yeah. You know, I wonder, I feel like in the '70s too, or just, you know, decades ago it wasn't as like, I feel like now if your child disappeared for like, weeks at 16 and came home and like had clearly been traumatized or had something happen. Like there are so many more ways nowadays. Like therapy or...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, just new tactic. TikTok, like literally parenting TikTok could probably there's a TikTok somewhere, like how to talk to your child after they've managed with a cult for a few weeks. You know, I don't fucking know, but I feel like back then it was just like, "Okay, well if he's not gonna talk about it, he's not gonna talk about it." So...
Em Schulz: There was, umm, uh, I went through a phase when I was a teenager where I just did not speak to my mother. I went like fucking cold-shouldered her. [laughter] It was like, did not speak to her? No, it was, it was a, a, uh, I to this day, can't explain it, but I'm sure there was, umm, some sort of like trauma I was going through, through with. I mean.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, there always is. Sure, sure.
Em Schulz: There's something going on.
Christine Schiefer: It's gotta be.
Em Schulz: And my mom got this book called, uh, Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk. And I remember being like, that just sent me over the edge. I'm certainly not talking to you now.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was gonna say, if I ever laid eyes on that, I'd be like, "Well, I'm literally never speaking to you again." [laughter] Like, I think I would just like cement it in my mind.
Em Schulz: I was like, you know what, today I thought about talking about you and talking to you. And then I saw that book on the table...
Christine Schiefer: That book.
Em Schulz: And I went right back upstairs.
Christine Schiefer: That book, I I'm with you. I would've been like, you have got to be fucking kidding me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: How to talk so your kids will listen and listen, listen your 'cause. And she got, she got it for like, I think for both of us to read together. And I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I forgot to say.
Em Schulz: Now you want us to read together?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's a journal that you have to fill out together. Oh Lord, help me.
Em Schulz: I was like, this is, this is the, this is the opposite of how to fix this [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I gotta say, if I ever tried to cold shoulder my mom, I probably would've gotten it. Let's just say it wouldn't have lasted. I would not have, it would not have lasted.
Em Schulz: It didn't, uh, my, my mom, uh, at one point, uh, snapped and it woke me out of whatever was going on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She just chucked the book at your head and was like, "Wow, that was a good purchase."
Em Schulz: No, she said some pretty, pretty horrible things to me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool. But is that what the book said? Just fucking insult the shit outta them. [laughter], maybe when you said like, "I'm certainly not telling you now." She's like, "Great. Now I gotta do the opposite of what the book says."
Em Schulz: Is she, whatever, whatever the book did say, it didn't say to react the way my mom did.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But it, it worked. It was, I think I like her anger, like, snapped me out of it or something. I don't know. I don't know what it was. And I don't know. I...
Christine Schiefer: Did you keep a journal or a diary?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Back then. Okay. 'Cause I, I recently thought about... This is probably a conversation for another day off, off.
Em Schulz: It's here. It's not, it's for right now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. But it's just you and me. Umm, I, my mom reminded me of this period of time when I was like 15 where I also didn't speak to her. And I had just gone through something quite traumatic that I didn't even remember until I went, 'cause my mom was explaining this to me and I was like, "That's weird. Why wouldn't I speak to you?" Whatever. I found an old journal and I was... I found that time period and I was reading it and I was like, "Oh shit. Like, no wonder I wasn't fucking talking to anyone or to her." Umm, so I like was able to match the, the, you know...
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: I was able to go back through my journal and be like, "Oh, I see what was going on here during this time. Now I can kind of connect the dots."
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't know what mine, what mine was. To this day, I feel so bad in hindsight for my mom because it had to have been really, I mean, I, I don't even know what it would've felt like, but it was a long period of time. Like it was almost a year of me not talking to her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: It was really bad. I, and there, I, there must have been something about, you know, my parents were getting divorced. Maybe my dad was getting me side with him and you know, there may, there must have been something, or.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I feel like the, that that dynamic is already rife for, you know. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she deserves an explanation. I just don't have one. I have no idea. I must have just shut down. Maybe I, I just went like, kind of catatonic at the...
Christine Schiefer: Catatonic, yeah.
Em Schulz: I just fully dissociated. I have no idea what like, psychological term there is to use. But...
Christine Schiefer: Did you feel like you were angry at her? Or did you just feel like, I don't wanna speak to you anyone?
Em Schulz: I, I don't know. I still don't know. I, I mean, I would be angry that she was trying when I just didn't want anyone to talk to me. Maybe in hindsight it was like, I was just like really sensory overloaded and like, I just like shut down and like...
Christine Schiefer: You were just like shut down.
Em Schulz: I, I don't, I have no idea what caused it, but it, it happened. Sorry, mom [laughter] Yeah, but we got there. We figured it out. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, hey just listen, she calls you at least 72 times a day, so it couldn't have lasted. You know.
Em Schulz: Maybe that nowadays I'm like, "Oh my God, stop. Maybe I need to... "
Christine Schiefer: No, maybe. I should try that all, all over. You should wait. Wouldn't it be funny if you mailed her that book? I just feel like that would be [1:09:26.3] ____ gasp [laughter] really funny. Like, here I found it...
Em Schulz: It tells you...
Christine Schiefer: Merry Christmas.
Em Schulz: Call me once a fucking week and that's it. Stop calling.
Christine Schiefer: Boundaries.
Em Schulz: St... Her favorite thing to do is call me and complain about how her, I think I've said it before on here, but like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, she complains that her mom.
Christine Schiefer: It's so not self-aware. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I love you mom. I know you're listening, but she'll hear this...
Christine Schiefer: I know I love you.
Em Schulz: She'll hear this. It'll go right over her head. Nothing will change. She'll come, she'll call me to complain about how her mom will only call her during work hours. And then my mom will go, "What are you doing?" [laughter] And I'll go, "I'm working." And she'll go, "Great. Well, anyway, here's an hour long conversation." I'm like, "Go away. What are you talking about?" Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Look, you know what she wanted? I, I guess I owe it to her because I didn't talk to her for a whole year or so.
Christine Schiefer: You know, this is like, the interest has piled up, you know, to the point.
Em Schulz: Its interest is exactly what it's.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's all interest. You're paying off now.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway, anyway, so yeah, basically Dean pulled an M and came home and said in a white robe and said, I'm not talking about this. [laughter] So they said, I mean, "Okay, there's literally nothing we can do." 'Cause they're, I don't think the book about listening and talking to your kids had been published yet. So they just had to kind of move on and they pretended like it never happened. Unfortunately, a year passed and he left again to join the same group for another little stint, another role...
Em Schulz: Like a retreat. It sounds like he's going on retreats.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like he's going on retreats. Umm.
Em Schulz: But he's not.
Christine Schiefer: But he is, well, I guess it depends on how you define retreat, but, umm.
Em Schulz: Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: They're just kind of roaming around with no shoes on, I guess. Umm...
Em Schulz: Sure. For all the things they're carrying. They couldn't find a way to carry some shoes. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's just wild to me. But anyway, umm, so he, he left about a year later with the same group and a few months after leaving, he called his mom from Columbus, Ohio and said, "I want to come home." So she wired him money for a bus ticket. And when he got there, he, when he got home, he once again said, "I don't wanna talk about it." And just left it at that. One day, Dean's younger sister, Donna Kay, brought home a friend from school. This friend was 12-year-old, Tina Lynn.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Tina was actually hard of hearing as a young child. And so she struggled to keep up in school and, uh, the way her sister described her is that she was basically had to become a fighter because she had to fight to keep up in school before she was ever diagnosed with, or her heart of hearing, you know, was treated. So an organization actually covered the cost for her surgery.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, to assist in her hearing. And she was able to attend a school for students with disabilities. And after several years she was able to return to public schooling. And that's where she met Dina's, I'm sorry, Dean's younger sister, Donna Kay. So the girls became super tight, BFFs and, uh, Tina's parents were somewhat absent from her home. So she sort of like blended into her, her best friend's family. You know how that happens. So Tina and her brother Les actually ended up spending like holidays with the family. They sort of got like adopted under the same roof.
Em Schulz: Sure. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And over the years, like some kind of a sitcom, uh, Tina and Dean began dating. They fell in love.
Em Schulz: Lovely.
Christine Schiefer: She was 15 and he was 19. I don't know the rules back then. I don't know the rules in Florida now. I have no clue. But that's, that's what happened.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So Les and Tina, uh, so Tina and her brother Les, they became like family, like I said. Umm, and then Tina started dating Dean and of course, uh, now they're even more like family, right? 'Cause she's literally dating one of them. And pretty soon they got married at a courthouse and Tina's mom signed consent and, uh, she moved into Dean's home with Dean, her new husband.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Which is must be so weird as a sister.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, "Shit, you were my best friend. Now you're literally having sex with my brother over there?"
Em Schulz: Umm, that happened in my own childhood friend group, where...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Uh, one of... A friend of ours ended up marrying Deirdre's brother.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so...
Christine Schiefer: That always trips me out when I think about like, when you guys tell stories back then I'm like, "What a weird twist."
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like us as...
Christine Schiefer: Plot twist.
Em Schulz: Friends or, uh, when I'm telling you about us as kids, it's like, "Oh, we were all just friends." And like there was no way of knowing that in the friend group. One of them was gonna be an in-law one day and yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's so weird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not in a bad way, but like, just so trippy to think like how life throws plot twists into the mix.
Em Schulz: It, it's, it's trippy because I feel like, I remember, uh, one of our friends like always talking about like, "Oh, well what will my kids be like one day? What will my kids be like one day?" Or like, "What's their dad gonna be like?" And the dad was like, upstairs the whole time. Like.
Christine Schiefer: He's like literally playing mash, like, hurry up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And like fill up the rest of this. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, how weird. I love stories like that. So they move into Dean's home and they're married now, and Dean's mom is absolutely thrilled. Uh, she, as you know, Dean likes to run away in the middle of the night to join, you know, these fringe groups, right? So she's like, "Thank God Tina's here. She can keep him grounded." Like they're so happy together. Maybe he'll stay home and be safe, right?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she helped Tina get a job and Dean was working as a carpenter. She helped them buy a car. Like she really wanted them to start a life that didn't have that like ominous, uh, fringe cult group in.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In their background at all. So when they announced that 16-year-old Tina was pregnant, the family could not be happier. Which is wonderful because again, I feel like you, we don't usually have stories like this where someone... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Sure, yeah. Let's, let's just [1:15:34.7] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Gets pregnant as a teenager. Teenager. And it's perfectly wonderful and happy and everyone's excited. Uh, so that the family is so supportive. And their baby, Holly's, which is one of my favorite names, actually, was born on January 24th, 1980.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Dean and Tina and their little baby Holly moved to, and this is where it gets a little complicated... Not really complicated, but my brain just kind of wanders. So the couple moves with their baby to Maryland, because Tina's sister Sherry lives up there. But Dean was, as we've mentioned, like a, a free spirit. He was like, "I don't wanna stay here that long." He convinced her to move to Texas from Maryland.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And nobody can really remember exactly why. Dean's mom is like, I'm pretty sure he got a job offer in Texas, but Tina's sister's like, "I don't think that's why they went to Texas. There's not really a clear reason." But Tina didn't really wanna go. Like she liked living with her sister up in Baltimore. And so she was hesitant to leave her family behind, but she had an allegiance to Dean and her baby. So the three of them headed to Texas in August of 1980. And they lived with Dean's uncle in Lewisville for a while.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And at first everything was hunky dory. Uh, they stayed in frequent contact with Dean's mom who was, you know, obviously a little worried that they're kind of bopping around.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, she was comforted that they were calling and saying everything was fine and safe. Uh, Dean and Tina actually got their own place and were doing really well. And Tina said she was happy, but then in November of that year, it had been roughly a month since anyone had heard from Dean or Tina and Dean's mom was getting more and more worried by the day. Some people even say that Dean and Tina actually never told their families. They got their own place and their families found out, like through other people.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, which kind of adds a layer of mystery like why wouldn't they tell?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: If they're keeping in close contact with his mom, it would be weird to like, for some reason leave out the fact they got a place together.
Em Schulz: That's a big, that's a big announcement. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You'd think so. Yeah. So that's just, some of the sources say that. I'm not 100% confident in that, but it is a little odd. Umm, then Dean's cousin mentioned to Dean's mom who's already on edge, right? Dean's cousin says, "Oh, well, you know, there was this weird religious group in town.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And she goes.
Em Schulz: Ding, ding, ding.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck. And he described them as, uh, "These nomadic people in white robes and no shoes on." And Donna, Dean's mom is like, God dammit. Okay, it's happening again. It's like...
Em Schulz: Oh, I know them. Florida.
Christine Schiefer: All too well. And you know, she's just like, they're just bopping around. I've heard all too well, they tried to sleep in my house, [laughter], umm. And so she just pray all she could do really was just wait and pray that Dean and Tina wouldn't get involved with them, especially now that they had the little baby.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she is just waiting, becoming more and more concerned with no word from Dean or Tina and the other, all the other strange details coming in from other family members, uh, she knew something was wrong. So Tina's sister, Sherry up in Maryland sent a letter to her sister Tina and said, "I had just gotten one recently. And within a couple days, I sent one back."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it was returned with, moved, left, no forwarding address, still on the envelope.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: So Sherry and Donna are now like both sides. Tina's family and Dean's family are both like, "Something is very wrong."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So Donna called her family in Texas who said, "Oh yeah, Dean, Tina and Holly left to join those guys in robes." [1:19:22.9] ____ gasp. And she's thinking, "It's, my worst nightmare is true. They've gone off with this group and now I don't know how to get in touch with them." Weirdly, this part creeps me out. A few weeks later, Donna gets a call from a detective in California who says, "Oh, we have located, uh, a car in your name." And it was the car that she had bought for Dean and Tina. And they said, uh, "The car was found abandoned, we'd like to return it to you." And she said, "Okay, please, yeah, if you could return it to me." And they said, "Meet us in the park at midnight and...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Bring, bring $1,000. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. No, thank you. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What the fuck? So she's like, "Let me call the police real quick."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she calls the police.
Em Schulz: Well, the police. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: The real, the real police. She's like, "Let me put you on hold." Umm, she calls the real police, uh, 'cause spoiler alert, that's not a real detective as far as we know.
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and she explains the situation and they're like, "Yeah, that's not really a thing, but you know, you can go ahead and meet with them. Be careful, you know... "
Em Schulz: They're not gonna, they didn't bring anyone out to help her?
Christine Schiefer: They just kind of said, you know, "You can do what you want." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I would've been like, "I need someone to escort me." Like, or like, "What if this is like the, what if we're about to bust a gang or something?" Like.
Christine Schiefer: I think what, so they actually do end up looking into it. Umm, she, I think she just, maybe, you know, what I think might've happened is they told her it's probably not a good idea and she went against their advice. Does that make, I feel like that makes more sense.
Em Schulz: I guess so.
Christine Schiefer: So the police were probably like, "This is very suspicious. Maybe don't do this." And she was like, "No, but I wanna find my son, so I'm gonna do it anyway."
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: But I think there was no choice, no chance. Like she was gonna do it no matter what. Umm, so they did arrive with the car and umm, they very clearly were not police. They were teenagers in white robes with bare feet.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so they could pretend over the phone to be detectives, but they won't commit to like, wearing shoes to pretend to be a detective, like, whatever.
Em Schulz: Also like, they're like their line was not very good. Like, you know, all of them sat together trying to craft the best thing to say over the phone and they were like, just bring $1,000 and don't think about it. Also.
Christine Schiefer: At midnight. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. That'll, that's a killer. That's a killer line. Also, I feel like, umm, that feels at the beginning of a horror movie driving up to a dark park and people in white robes are waiting for you?
Christine Schiefer: There's like a, a swing set in the background swinging slowly and people in white robes and no shoes. Absolutely, it's a horror movie. This story creeps me the creep out. I don't know. I, I don't, I don't like it. I don't like it. But she meets with them and they do give her the car. So, you know, at least she got that out of them. Umm, then the police showed up.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they did, they did. Uh, I didn't wanna spoil a surprise. The plot twist.
Em Schulz: Okay. Thank God I was like this, like, I don't know, a better time for a cop with like an axe to grind. Like to show up and wanna like solve something.
Christine Schiefer: And be like, "This is... Those Jesus freaks are back? I better get on over to the park at midnight." Yeah. So they did, they did show up and they did, uh, actually send Donna home and said, umm, "We'll take it from here."
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: So at the very least, you know, they really, uh, they did step in.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they questioned the teens and in the end, police learn ultimately that Dean and Tina had joined a group called Christ Family. And this was like this extremist fringe group, or at least a fringe group. I don't know how extreme it is, but they were a fringe group and they followed a leader named Lightning Amen.
Em Schulz: Hmm. So many jokes. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's, but there's so many jokes you can't even like, you know, it's like impossible to land on one. It's like overwhelming. [laughter] It's just wild. Like this guy. And have you heard of him? Because I'd actually heard of him.
Em Schulz: No, no.
Christine Schiefer: I'd heard of him be, I mean, only once or twice just 'cause his name is so wack-a-doo. Umm, but yeah, he was basically like a surfer who then became a cult leader. Like, I mean, you know, you can see it. I don't need to probably give you any more detail than that. It's, you can imagine. You can imagine.
Em Schulz: I, I can, he looks like Thor, but he like, but like dorky Thor.
Christine Schiefer: Dorky Thor. Here let send you a picture. I, 'cause I don't know what Thor looks like, and I don't know what a dorky Thor is.
Em Schulz: Chris Hemsworth.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter] He does not look like Chris Hemsworth.
Em Schulz: I hear lightning. I think Thor, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's fair. Umm, no, I'll send you a picture of Jesus Amen.
Em Schulz: Jesus. Umm, no, it was Lightning Amen.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sorry. Lightning Amen, Christ family, part of the Jesus people movement. [laughter] It's like, sorry folks.
Em Schulz: It's like those people who have a bunch of like the initials at the end of their name. Like, they could be like Esquire Indeed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, yes.
Em Schulz: Whatever. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus follower. But, yeah. Yeah. Did you get my photo of him? He's the one in the beard.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. No, he does not look like Chris Hemsworth.
Christine Schiefer: Certainly not. He looks like... He looks...
Em Schulz: You know what, now that I've seen his face, he looks exactly like Lightning Amen.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Okay. I am glad you understand now.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He looks like a cult leader.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: From like, I mean, these are newer photos, but like, he basically looked like that in black and white in some, in a robe. [1:24:52.8] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so as you can imagine, this guy is a, a hell of a hell of a guy. Umm, they, according to the teenagers, they told police, "Oh, don't worry." Dean and Tina joined the, the group of their own free will, which like, having to insist that is a little shady to me but...
Em Schulz: Yeah. That makes me think immediately a gun was involved.
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry. They, they, they loved it the whole time. Right, guys? [laughter] Like they really wanted to be here.
Em Schulz: The... Tell them you had the best time. Tell them. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Tell them about Lightning Amen. And how he, how much he looks like Chris Hemsworth. Okay? Say it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well if, if he heard me call him Chris Hemsworth, I think all of a sudden they, they'd try to summon me into the cult or whatever, so.
Christine Schiefer: I think you'd be in trouble. Umm, so they said as part of joining the cult, they willingly joined and they willingly gave up their worldly possessions and relationships, but they said they wanted to make sure Donna got the car back since it was in her name. Umm, but they knew they couldn't quite contact her themselves. So they created this falsified detective plan and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, ultimately they said, "We can't tell you where Dean, Tina or Holly are because, you know, our members are nomadic and they travel in small groups." You know, one minute we're in New Smyrna, next minute we're in old Smyrna, who knows? [laughter] Uh, but yeah, so they basically said, "We don't know where they are, we can't help you."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And in the end, police were like, "Well, there's really no evidence of a crime. Like, they brought you your car."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. That's odd.
Christine Schiefer: You know, so she was like, "Well, I guess." So basically they just let him go back to California. And at this point Donna's like, "Okay, it's very, very clear now that my son and his new wife and baby are in a cult." So best she could, she just imagined she kind of created like a, a world in her mind where they were living happily in a commune somewhere. And, umm, you know, she tried to just at least believe that story to keep her sanity, help her sleep at night. Umm, but she said she really, really struggled with that. Umm, Sherry, Tina's sister later said, we pictured Tina living on some sort of group commune, having a very good quiet life. Them with Holly and maybe more children even. That's at least what I had hoped for. Unfortunately, nobody would ever hear from Dean or Tina again.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So [1:27:22.5] ____.
Christine Schiefer: So on January... Yeah, unfortunately. On January 6th, 1981, uh, a guy was out with his dog. You can imagine where this is going. A guy was out with his dog when the dog finds something exciting in the woods.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And brings it to his owner and it is a decomposing arm.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Surprise. Uh, this could be...
Em Schulz: I mean, I sensed the body. I did not know it would be just one part of just an arm.
Christine Schiefer: Just an arm.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: It's at least not a disembodied foot. I know how you feel about those.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it's just the arm. Umm, of course he calls the Harris County Sheriff's Office and searchers find the remains of two people in a wooded area north of Houston. The woman had been strangled to death, and the man had died of a skull fracture.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: It was theorized that the man may have been killed defending the woman when she was attacked and was, was hit over the head. The forensics experts on the case refer to them as Romeo and Juliet because it looked like they died trying to save one another. And...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, obviously tragic young couple dying matches Romeo and Juliet. So they had no way of knowing their real names. Umm, there was really no headway made on the case. I mean, if you think about it like Dean and Tina are in a cult somewhere, they're not being reported as missing and so they're not in a database as missing. So the people in Texas just don't know who these people are and the case goes cold. And the couple was buried together, uh, without names, nameless in a county cemetery. And they stayed that way for decades.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't until 2011, the National Institutes of Justice awarded Harris County, in particular, a grant to exhume unidentified remains to collect DNA samples and pursue new investigations on cold cases.
Em Schulz: Oh, fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So in 20...
Em Schulz: Fun.
Christine Schiefer: Fun. I mean, you know, that's silver lining. I'm talking about it, it's coming on up. In 2018, census of medical examiners and coroners accounted for 11,000 sets of unidentified human remains in a...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: US Medical Examiner and coroner's offices. And that does not include people who have been entered, who have been buried. So...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: That's just the people that are, unfortunately, their bodies are just in limbo, almost in an office somewhere in storage.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A, and nobody knows, you know, they're nameless. It's, it's scary. So, you know, places are trying to use the new technology, DNA familial matching to solve who some of these people might be.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which we saw with the Lady of the Dunes. Remember that?
Em Schulz: Yeah., yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We thought nobody will ever figure this out. So, of course, matching identities of missing people to their remains is already, you know, umm, what do you call it? A monumental task.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but since Dean and Tina were never even marked missing, it's not like they were in a list or database that you could point to. So we may never have known who the Lady of the Dunes was, who Dean and Tina were, except for the advent of genetic genealogy. Our favorite...
Em Schulz: Yee.
Christine Schiefer: Our favorite tool, which, of course, we've covered in several other cases. Uh, Golden State Killers, probably like the most groundbreaking one it's happening.
Em Schulz: Because it's just set off.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And set off the most, you know, kind of offshoots of, of the same kind of procedure being done. Umm, and so what happens is DNA samples of victims and murderers, such as Golden State Killer, are entered into public genealogy databases like ancestry.com, and then they're used to find matching relatives. So in 2022, as in last year as we record this, two women named Misty Gillis and Allison Peacock, best name ever.
Em Schulz: Love it.
Christine Schiefer: Love it. Used a grant to pursue the 1981 Romeo and Juliet Cold Case, as it was called. Awesome. And interestingly enough, that was made possible due to podcasts, because [1:31:47.4] ____ gasp, Ashley Flowers Company audio chuck Ashley Flowers, who host Crime Junkie Audio chuck actually gave them the grant.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: To, to pursue this. It's just so kick ass. So these two women get this grant from Audio chuck, and they are able to pursue basically the way that, uh, the, I think it was Misty who described it, she said she was just scrolling through, they had made like composites of what the remains would maybe look like in life.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like reconstruct their, their faces. And so she's scrolling through a bunch of them, like John and Jane Does and she said she sees the photo of the male victim of this Romeo and Juliet case. And she's like, "Something just clicked." And I knew I had to find out who this man was.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Like I had to find out his story.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, ooh. Gives me the goosecam. So they start moving in a matter of weeks. The two of them were able to track down family members, and they gave Dean's sister Debbie Brooks a call, which must have been quite a call after decades.
Em Schulz: So awkward too. Like how do you just...
Christine Schiefer: It's so awkward.
Em Schulz: You know, like if, if one of them had phone anxiety.
Christine Schiefer: If like the caller had waited an emailer, I was gonna say, I would've sent her a little WhatsApp, said, "Hey, emoji emoji." I see. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Hey girl.
Christine Schiefer: Hey girl. Weird weather we're having, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, LOL, I know. And just like, I don't know how people.
Em Schulz: I'm sweating just thinking about it like.
Christine Schiefer: I know [laughter] I don't know how people do it really. Umm, but they called her up and said, 'Hey, do you happen to have a missing relative because we kind of got this DNA match that...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That hit you and your family of a John Doe. And she said, "Yeah, my brother disappeared like decades ago, and we never heard from him again." And Missy said, "Okay, well, we believe we found him and we believe we found his partner, whoever he was with." And Debbie said, "That would be Tina. You found Dean and Tina." And then there was a brief pause and Debbie asked, but where's the baby? [1:34:05.3] ____ gasp. And Allison said, "That was the biggest shock I had ever had in my life." We were focused on finding them. It didn't occur to us that they would've had a child, like the whole time they were just thinking, "Oh, this young couple was killed. We're gonna find their identities." And then this bombshell of like, "Well, where's their baby?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because no unidentified child remains had been found in that area.
Em Schulz: Right. Was she, like, did, were they originally taken in by this group because they had a baby and then they killed them for the baby? You know, like.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Which feels like that could very much be the plot, but no, it, it's actually not, not quite that way. And we still don't totally know what happened. And again, that's, that's where the hope comes in. I hope that...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: We can figure this one out. At this point, umm, not only were there not remains found with Dean and Tina, but there were no remains in any registers that like DNA matched with them.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So this baby wasn't even listed, unidentified. And so they thought maybe she's still alive.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And if she were alive, she would be 41 years old.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they were killed when she was several months old.
Em Schulz: Right. So, like, they, if the group...
Christine Schiefer: It took 40 years.
Em Schulz: Took the baby in, they probably like maybe changed her name. She wouldn't even know her name was Holly.
Christine Schiefer: So, eventually, a cold case...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Unit took on the search for Holly in January, 2022. And meanwhile, Donna and her family, of course had... Donna, who's still alive, that's his... Dean's mom. Mm-Hmm. Had to reckon with Dean and Tina's deaths and, you know, put some closure there. At the very least.
Em Schulz: It has to at least be... 'Cause you hope that this entire time they were out with their group, but to know that they, they died so early, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, just months months after.
Em Schulz: Yeah. This whole time you thought that at least they were around for like maybe 10 or 20 years. And...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: But even in that whole time you were imagining that maybe one day they'd call, they weren't even alive. Oh my God. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly... I mean, that's exactly it. You could have taken the words right out of her mouth because Donna, Dean's mom said, "I was on the freeway once and this young man passed me. And it looked so much like my son." I used to tell myself he's still out there somewhere and he'll ring the doorbell and say, "Hey, mom."
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: And now that hope had been quashed, but you know, at the very least, they had a glimmer of hope in that maybe they could find Holly.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which would be Donna's granddaughter. So unbelievably, the investigation pretty quickly led them to Holly Marie, [1:36:45.0] ____ gasp, who was alive and well and still named Holly Marie.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God. Wow. I did not see that coming.
Christine Schiefer: Right? That's why I just didn't even respond to you. I was like, "I don't wanna give anything away. I am just gonna let you, let that one, let it rest."
Em Schulz: Let it fester.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Let it fester. Gross. So Holly Marie explained that she had been adopted decades ago, and it would've been just before her parents murders.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Is how the timing worked, so.
Em Schulz: So maybe when they had to give up all their relationships and included their kid.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Ding, ding, ding. I think that's...
Em Schulz: Oh wow. That saved her life.
Christine Schiefer: It did. Thankfully. Thank God. So they found her, she said, "I was adopted," and her story was on November 8th, 1980. Her adoptive father, Philip McGoldrick, he was a pastor in Yuma, Arizona. And he was at church, he was at Seventh Day Adventist Church in Yuma. And he was getting ready for, I dunno, he's in his office getting ready for a sermon or something. It's around 2:00 PM and he hears a knock at the door of the church. So he goes and opens the door and sees two women wearing white robes and no shoes on.
Em Schulz: Aha.
Christine Schiefer: And he said they kind of looked like nuns, but he said they looked like nuns who had slept in a field. [laughter] That's like the best dad insult I've ever heard. So he said they were just really unkempt, and they looked it. And so Philip was familiar with this group already because, you know, he worked at a church and he had seen them around, and he had helped with feeding them and giving them provisions and that kind of thing before. So he's like, "What would you like, what can I help you with? Do you need food? You know, do you need shelter?" They say, "We need someone to take a baby...
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: From us. And according to them, their explanation was that women and men traveled separately in this sect.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And there was no room for a baby in their lifestyle. So someone's gotta take the baby.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they said, "One of our sisters decided to give hers up." So Philip is immediately skeptical. He's like, "I don't know, I wanna talk to the mother...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And make sure that like, she's good with this." So he asked if they were 100% sure about this. They said, "Well, one time, we left a baby alone in a laundromat with a note attached to it. And we thought this was a better alternative.
Em Schulz: Oh, would love to know where that baby is now. Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What the fuck? And so he goes, "Well, shit, like obviously now I have to take this baby because what if I give it back? They're gonna go put it in a laundromat somewhere."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? He's like, "It's safer for me to take the baby." So, you know, thankfully he takes the baby and he's scared they're gonna abandon it somewhere. And the sisters drove with Philip to his house to speak to his wife because he is like, "Let me, let's bring my wife into this one before I make any like decisions."
Christine Schiefer: So interestingly, when he got in the car, "the sisters," quote-unquote, introduced him to the mother of Holly Marie, the baby.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Although she was very quiet, didn't talk much, and the, "the leader", quote-unquote, of the trio did most of like the logistics and the talking. So they get to Philip's house, now with Tina, who is the mother of Holly, and the, they have the baby too. And Philip and his wife Connie speak directly to Tina and they say, you know, "Are you sure this is what you want?" She insisted that yes, it is what she wanted. She gave them Holly's original birth certificate and a document signed by Dean, the father, relinquishing all parental rights to Holly and Connie. The, uh, the pastor's wife, just couldn't understand this decision and kept asking, you know, Tina, "Are you sure? Is this really what you want?"
Christine Schiefer: And Tina said it was what she had to do.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They asked her repeatedly, but she was so adamant that eventually they just accepted it. And because it was a Saturday, there were no lawyers offices open. And so Philip and Connie went with these three women to a notary, and Tina signed a document giving up poll, and then the sisters left within two hours of showing up with a baby at his doorstep. They were gone. And he was, you know, he and his wife raised Holly Marie alongside their other daughter as sisters.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that wild?
Em Schulz: Mm. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So con Connie and Philip met with a lawyer, you know, because they were like, "We still wanna make sure this is all above board." And they did actually publish a notice of an abandoned child, almost as like, to give one more chance to Tina if she wanted to.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Change her mind. Umm, and the legal guardians had six months to claim Holly and take her back, but they never did. We know now that Tina had been murdered in that time period.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So after six months, the McGoldricks began an official adoption of Holly Marie. Umm, they'd already, you know, fallen in love with her after having her for six months. And now their oldest daughter, or their only daughter had a sister.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they had two daughters, which is kind of special. So Holly grew up knowing this story about these women appearing at her father's church. Umm, but neither she nor her parents could imagine that, you know, shortly thereafter, both her parents were brutally murdered. Mm-Hmm. And had been sitting unidentified for 40 years. Like that one definitely was not on the radar. So on June 7th, 2022, detectives approached Holly, who is now 42 and a mother of five.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And spoke, I know like a full-ass adult life and spoke to her about her past and they confirmed she was indeed Holly Marie, daughter of Tina and Dean. She, they had the original birth certificate and everything.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And that day they said, "Do you wanna hop on a Zoom call and meet your family?"
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And she said, "What's a Zoom call?" [laughter] But she did, uh, remember this was 2022. So like, you know.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Zoom was...
Em Schulz: We were all getting used to it.
Christine Schiefer: Zoom was popping off. Okay. So they get on a Zoom call and she is like just totally overwhelmed. She's meeting several family members, like she's just over the moon. And she later said, "I had this family that had prayed and been searching for me and wanted to know me, wanted to find me." And incidentally, she was located on the birthday of Dean, her late father.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so she called it a birthday gift from Heaven. He's like, "It only took 42 birthdays," but, okay.
Em Schulz: I know. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So Holly met her grandmother who had been searching for her all this time and hoping for, to find her someday. And they reunited and you can go watch the video. I think it was on like Good Morning America or something, you know.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, of them reuniting for the first time. And she just says like, "Thank you for praying." Holly says, "It's just really sweet." And uh, when they were reunited, Tina's sister, Sherry, actually had a dream that Tina was playing with her daughter Holly, uh, like she used to do when she lived in Maryland with them. And she said, "I think that was a sign that Tina is finally resting in peace knowing that Holly has been reunited with her family."
Em Schulz: It's so sweet.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And so of course now the next step remains to discover what the hell happened to de Dean and Tina.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, they believe the case can be solved. And there actually is one person of interest, and it is a woman who was there the day of Holly's adoption, the woman who approached Philip and said, you know, "Take this baby." And her name's Rosemary Garcia. And apparently she had orchestrated this whole adoption and was like a main member of this religious fringe group.
Christine Schiefer: So they're looking at her for answers. So I...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I do feel like there could be an actual solution to this. Umm, and it's weirdly enough, Rosemary had three daughters of her own, I guess, that she didn't have to give up. So whatever.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's convenient.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't it? And I mean, I'm glad for their sake, but, but also, what the fuck? Umm, and their names are Jill, Joy, and Jan and people called them Rosemary and the three J's.
Em Schulz: Rosemary and the Duggars. Yeah, right? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It does sound. It does. Yeah. Oh, they copied it. They copied Rosemary [laughter] So anyway, umm, investigators think she probably has some sort of information that could lead them to answers. And the Texas Attorney General told people, as long as there are people still alive that know we've got a chance of solving it, just like finding baby Holly. It took decades, but eventually we ended up with the right information to get that part of it figured out.
Christine Schiefer: And umm, you know, of course the easy assumption is that the cult was, had orchestrated the murder, right? But like, we can't be positive.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, because they were also living kind of a dangerous lifestyle of, uh, sleeping outside and, and traveling in small groups and, you know, it made them vulnerable to violent crime. So perhaps they had been killed hitchhiking, sleeping outside somewhere, umm, staying with a stranger overnight. But, uh, you know, a lot of people believe the cult did have something to do with it, for obvious reasons.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Donna actually passed away, umm, last month, or... Sorry, two months ago, in October. But Holly and her family are still hoping for closure. And Holly has since written a book about this whole experience. It's called Finding Baby Holly: Lost to a Cult, surviving my parents' murders and Saved by Prayer [laughter]
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: No big deal. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right, yeah. [laughter] Talk about like an icebreaker at a party.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like two trues and a lie, but they're all true.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Umm, and so in this book, she kind of writes about the perspectives of her family members so she can put together her own understanding of her parents and who her parents were and, and kind of rebuild like the, I don't know, the family that she was separated from all that time ago. So together with both of her families, Holly and one of the researchers, Alison Peacock, you remember?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They launched the Dean and Tina Lynn Clouse Memorial Fund, which helps other people search for lost loved ones using genetic genealogy, which I think is just so badass.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And umm, Holly says she wants to bring what she calls miracles to other families because she feels like she was given a miracle.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So, you know, this one had some, some positivity at the end.
Em Schulz: That was a great one, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well thank you so much. I mean.
Em Schulz: That was probably the only time I feel like somewhat relieved in the least twisted way possible. I actually...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I can say I enjoyed the story without feeling like a total piece of garbage.
Christine Schiefer: Without just like, just cringing the whole time. Like there was actually some positivity going on. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, we, and I still wanna know why they were killed and why they were killed next to each other. If they're supposed to be separate from each other.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder, I mean, one of the theories, I think one of the family members believes that they tried to leave the cult.
Em Schulz: Oh, I see. That makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: And together, perhaps, especially when that... I mean if you think about it, and this is all speculation on my part, but if you think about it, if her adoptive parents put a, uh, a notice of an abandoned child and said, "You have six months to retrieve your child," who knows if they tried to go back for her and...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Were caught leaving the cul... Who knows. I mean, again, this is just me speculating, but, umm.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, no, tho those make sense. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: So hopefully they figure it out.
Em Schulz: Man. Good story, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh. Lemme send you a picture. 'cause it, every time they showed this picture, I was just so sad. 'cause it's such a cute little family and just to know like.
Em Schulz: I like how I'm saying, I'm finally feeling relieved and you're like, "Great, let me bum you out real quick."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, let me show you the murder victims [laughter], but.
Em Schulz: Aww, they're cuties.
Christine Schiefer: Aren't they cute? And they're so young. I mean, it's just terrible.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they were so excited about their baby, and it's just really sad.
Em Schulz: At least she finally got to see a picture of her with them.
Christine Schiefer: So she, yeah. They gave her that photo and it was of course like life-changing, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To have. And she has, I think, uh, somebody made, I'm trying to see a painting of them together, like the three of them...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Together. Umm, for her it's just, you know.
Em Schulz: Pretty sweet.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just glad she at least got some closure out of all of it, but.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, thank you everyone for listening to another reason and episode of, And That's Why We Drink. Uh, and what, when does, when does this come out? This comes out right around now, right before Christmas. Are you getting excited for Christmas, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: I am. I am. Lisa it's coming home.
Em Schulz: Maybe you'll get a new ear for by January or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh maybe I can, umm, maybe the membrane of my eardrum will heal. Or wouldn't that be Christmas Miracle little drummer boy, Christine. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Dru... Ear drummer boy.
Christine Schiefer: Ear Drummer boy, Christine, just fixing up that membrane that she punctured.
Em Schulz: Uh, reminder that we are about to go back on tour every day. My, uh, vagus nerve freaks out a little more. Umm, but please come buy tickets because the only thing that would make it worse is if nobody showed up. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't say that. That's not funny.
Em Schulz: And uh, I just, I hope everyone's having a good time. So if you wanna listen to more of our ramblings, you can go over to Patreon where we will be doing in after hours and, uh, we'll see you there. And That's Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
