[intro music]
Em Schulz: It's Christine and her sidekick, me. It's Christine and all the invisible spirits in her room from her pictures. Hey, it's Christine and a dried-up little lemon. It's Christine and her baby, who if you re-arrange letters in her name spells Halloween. Hey.
[applause]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Thank God, we finally finished our, umm, our rehearsal for the live show. Thank you, Em. Well, we can start the episode now.
Em Schulz: Oh, was that it?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. So you know, if you're... Oh, shoot. We're recording already? Well, I guess, you all got a sneak peek into our live show, our live tour [0:00:50.3] ____.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's, uh...
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if my whole job on tour is to [laughter] just come out and sing that, and then I walk off and it's all you? Actually, that sounds pretty great.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, that's like your dream. Umm, wow. Okay, that was beautiful, Em. And I... Well, I feel like, everyone really appreciated it, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah, well, you know, I thought... I think you of all people probably appreciated it, but every now and then, you need someone to just butter you up. So, in case you haven't been buttered recently, my little roll, umm...
Christine Schiefer: That's so nice.
Em Schulz: I just want to let you know that, you're on my mind at least...
Christine Schiefer: Aww!
Em Schulz: In four bars or...
Christine Schiefer: That...
Em Schulz: Whatever the music phrase is.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That is the kindest thing anyone has ever said to me. Umm, speaking of butter, why don't I eat some snacks? Just kidding. Apparently, [laughter] I keep eating during the episodes. [laughter] I'm sorry, everyone. Poor Eva had to bring it to our attention, and then I was like, umm... And I was like, "Oh, I know that's me. I'm sorry." I sometimes eat a piece of candy and I just assume I'm gonna be muted, but like, I guess, I, I guess, why would I be muted? I don't know. I, I don't know where in my head [laughter] I decided it was okay to eat candy while we record, like, seven years into the podcast. So I apologize. Umm, I won't be doing that anymore.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Alright. And so, all of a sudden, you're just... I... I'll know you're not listening to me anymore when you start aimlessly just fidgeting with like, a candy wrapper, which is even worse to me.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I'll need something. I have, like, such, like... I just... I feel like I always... As you know, Em has, Em has witnessed something that, like, rarely people have witnessed. It's like, when I do notes or when I'm like, reading something on the computer...
Em Schulz: Oh, God.
Christine Schiefer: I have, like, this, like, clicking compulsion.
Em Schulz: Like, you've, you've had to go to therapy for it, I think, or talked about it in therapy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I did, yeah. It's like... It's part of my OCD, and it's like, so unbearable for other people. [laughter] I don't notice it. Like, I've... I don't see it anymore, but Em is like, "What are you doing, highlighting everything over and over [laughter] and over again?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I... Like, I know, I know with certainty every single bullet that you're reading, you're highlighting frantically.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Every time you'd... Every... If you're ever wondering...
Christine Schiefer: And it's terrible in a Google Doc, 'cause I realize other people can see that I'm like just clicking, like... It looks like I have a computer glitch going on, umm, so...
Em Schulz: There have been times where I've been in a Google Doc with Christine, and I can't even...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's bad.
Em Schulz: Work on my own shit...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Because things are just becoming pink and then not, and then pink and then not, and then pink and then not. And I'm like, "What?"
Christine Schiefer: At least it's pink. That's cute.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's, it's, uh...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: It's, it's just one of your quirks, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: I am so quirky that sometimes people get mad about it. And I do apologize. And not you, [laughter] I'm talking about the candy. And I do apologize, because, you know, I know that's very annoying, and I know that, umm, that would drive me crazy also. So, I apologize. Uh, I apologize to Eva, I apologize to Jack, our editor, and most of all...
Em Schulz: I think the...
Christine Schiefer: I apologize to the Lord Our Saviour.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck. I was like, "Where are we going here?"
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I've, I've, I've had a lot of coffee today.
Em Schulz: What is your... What was your coffee, umm, order today, your, your flavor?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. It was made in a coffee pot at my house, so it was my home, home flavor. Umm...
Em Schulz: But what, but what type of... I don't know what it's called, but like, what type of... Was it like a... Was it just black coffee, or was it like a... Does it have a name, the drink?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. It's just a mug of coffee, and then I put some of my pumpkin spice creamer in it, so I like feel like a little, [chuckle] you know, spicy today.
Em Schulz: Feeling silly? Feeling...
Christine Schiefer: I'm feeling a little naughty. I put a little...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, as Rene says, [laughter] a little... Feeling so naughty.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, naughty. Umm, put a little spice, some coffee creamer. That's my, like, thing. I just... I used to go through phases where, like, every few months, I would suddenly abruptly change the way I drank coffee, and it was... Poor Blaise would, like, bring me up a cup of coffee with cream in it, and I'd be like, "I only drink black coffee," and he's like, "Literally, you decided that yesterday." I'm like, "I know, but this is me now."
Em Schulz: You also do that to me, Christine. You do that... [laughter] Whenever I have to order you something, or like, we're all trying to figure out, like, group dinner, and I'm like, "Oh, well, Christine doesn't eat this." And you're like, "What are you talking about?" And you say it...
Christine Schiefer: Like, "That's my favorite food."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You literally say it like a mean girl. You're like, "Are you an idiot?" [laughter] Like, "I only eat that." And I was like, "What the fuck? I just spent the last year making a note in my head to not ever feed you that."
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: You do it all the time. [laughter] All the time.
Christine Schiefer: I love to be full of surprises. Umm, and so, you know...
Em Schulz: Every time I ever, like, suggest food to you, it is always... I never finish breathing.
Christine Schiefer: It's a gamble.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: No, it's a gamble.
Em Schulz: "I'm ready for you to tell me it's the opposite." You know?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, usually, I eat everything. Like, when in doubt, most things, I will eat. But [laughter] coffee creamer in my coffee has been... I used to put just milk, like, a splash of milk. Then I was like, "Blaise, this isn't enough milk." And then I was like, "I only drink oat milk in my coffee." Then I was like, "I can't stand oat milk in my coffee." Then, "I drink black." Anyway, now, like, a little dash of, like, a flavored creamer, and I'm fucking on... I'm on it. This has been the pattern for like, over a year-and-a-half. So I'm thinking it'll stick, but we'll see. Umm, you know?
Em Schulz: Well, I, uh... So I have a...
Christine Schiefer: Is this what people complain about on Reddit when they're like, they just blab on about useless shit no one cares about?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, where is that person who used to put the time code when we started talking about important stuff, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Where are you?
Em Schulz: So, rely, we rely on them. Umm, my turn. So speaking of... [laughter] Speaking of coffee, umm, with my tea, I... So I've been, uh... I, I... At the beginning of the year or Eva would know. Eva, when did we start doing Supper Club? Just write in, please. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: What the hell is that?
Em Schulz: We have Supper Club every Tuesday night.
Christine Schiefer: What's that? That sounds fun.
Em Schulz: It's called Queer Supper Club. It's where, gasp, all of our queer friends get together and eat supper together as a club.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fun. That's so cute. I'll start texting you.
Em Schulz: Umm, I know your FOMO is at a peak high.
Christine Schiefer: No. No. I'm gonna start texting you at Tuesday. I don't like to leave the house, umm... Wait, what did you say that I...
Em Schulz: Bullshit. This is another one of your things where you're doing the...
Christine Schiefer: What did you say? I know. I'm like, I'm trying to say the opposite just to, like, fuck with you.
Em Schulz: Like, hello, we all know you're the queen of FOMO, with love. You're the queen FOMO.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You are totally what... If you...
Christine Schiefer: It depends. Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: If you were in... I think because of the distance, you're fine with it, but if you were in LA, absolutely not. You would get yourself in your little leather jacket, that I know you love so much, and your ripped black jeans. You would look hot as shit. You'd put your eyeliner on. And you'd be like, "I'm going to Queer Supper Club every Tuesday."
Christine Schiefer: I'm queer now, Blaise, Get out of my face.
Em Schulz: Yeah. For... On Tuesdays only, Blaise, no more.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Blaise, Blaise, you're out of the picture. And put that black coffee down. I don't want [laughter] anything to do with it.
Em Schulz: I think black coffee makes you only queerer. No? Like...
Christine Schiefer: I think...
Em Schulz: Like, in a, like a, in a tough way. Like a, like a motorcycle gang way.
Christine Schiefer: Probably, you're right. I feel like the way that I drink coffee nowadays is like, such a mom way, you know? Like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it's like a mom thing. I don't know. I just need, like, that sugar hit in the morning. Umm, I will say, I've gotten a lot better about my FOMO. Like, it used to be bad, 'cause I just felt like... I don't know. I just was like, "Oh, no." I just felt... I don't know. I mean, yeah, I just have FOMO, but...
Em Schulz: Unloved? Did you feel unloved?
Christine Schiefer: At this point, I'm kinda over it.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I think COVID really did a number on me in that way, where I'm like, "Honestly, like, I don't really need to go [laughter] do stuff." I don't know. Maybe it's the Zoloft. That really has helped with a lot of my issues also. [laughter] So, yeah.
Em Schulz: Alright. Well, I only... First of all, let's make it clear, just in case FOMO decides to appear in the middle of the night, that, obviously, if you were here, or when you're here, you're always welcome, but...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. I don't assume that... I mean, I would be hilarious if you were, like, actively, we don't tell you about it. I mean, [laughter] I don't assume that that's the case, but if it was...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: That would be quite a turn of events.
Em Schulz: Well, so, I only bring it up, because I've been trying in the last... I feel like it's been the last year, but maybe it hasn't been that long, maybe it's been longer. I have no concept of time anymore, that I was going through this thing... I have talked about it to enough of my friends, that I feel like, I can just say it out loud and hopefully nobody's feelings are hurt. Umm, I've been going through, uh, what I've been calling a frenaissance, where I've been...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. I love this.
Em Schulz: Breaking up with some people to make room for other people, and I'm just re-evaluating my relationships.
Christine Schiefer: Good for you.
Em Schulz: And I was like, "I really wanna have more friends that I'm closer with." 'Cause I feel like I had a lot of friends that I saw once a month, and I want friends that I see often.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So, I've been creating more standing appointments with friends...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which is like the adult way of hanging out with people all the time, I guess. So, example is on Tuesdays, where I have Queer Supper Club...
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: And on Thursdays... This is where we... We're talking about coffee. This is the segue. Umm, on Thursdays, I have a standing tea time with, gasp, my friend, Delanie.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Fun.
Em Schulz: Umm, and she has the... By the way, shout out... She has the podcast, Self-Helpless. Umm, that's how we met. If we're...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: We're on it. If you want to start there. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Hey, I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Say, hi for me. [laughter] Didn't know you guys are friends. That's a fun show. I really like that show.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah, she's one of my closer friends these days. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: See, now I'm like... Now I'm FOMO, 'cause I feel like, man, you're just not, like, letting me into your life anymore. I feel like, I don't know you at all.
Em Schulz: I, I have, I have... I'm changed.
Christine Schiefer: Like, with Supper Club, you're friends with... [laughter] I mean, wow. Wow.
Em Schulz: No. I just...
Christine Schiefer: You're like a baby bird, that I'm, like, shoving out of the nest.
Em Schulz: Well, yeah, actually, I told Delanie, I was like, "Christine's out." If you want a mo... If you want a chance, you can audition now, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's f... I mean, I get it.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I, uh... She... We lost touch for a while, and we recently got back in touch, and then we immediately started doing our standing appointment. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I love... Wait. Where do you go for tea? I'm just curious.
Em Schulz: I go to her house. She makes us tea, which is lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And she does... We do, umm, an Oracle reading every time I'm there, so... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh, now I have FOMO. It's back, baby.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So now, it's tea and tarot. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Tea and tarot? Oh, come on. This is amazing.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And so, I go every Thursday. And, uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's so cute.
Em Schulz: You talking about your milk and how thing... Your flavor's changing. I keep trying so hard. I, I love her, but she's also, like, through and through a vegan, and all of her... She doesn't have... She won't have real milk in her house, which is totally fine...
Christine Schiefer: [0:10:34.8] ____.
Em Schulz: But I can't... I'm trying so hard to get through it. But she'll make this tea that's amazing, and then she'll put, like... She knows I like milk in it, so she'll try to put milk in it, but it's never real milk, and I can always taste the difference.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And one time, she put milk in there, that was gray, and I was like, "What?" And then I... Apparently, that's like...
Christine Schiefer: That's a Zombie milk, baby.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I think that's what it was. But I watched it happen, and I was like... This is like, watching how the sausage is made. It's like, it's just... I mean, ironically...
Christine Schiefer: Except the opposite.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Ironically, like, real milk, the way that it's made is so much worse...
Christine Schiefer: Except if you watched [0:11:02.6] ____ to be made, it would be a bunch of oats and not [laughter] like, a dead animal.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but like, it was like, I just watched someone pour a bunch of Disney gray sludge into my drink and I was like, ugh. And so, anyway, what a long tangent.
Christine Schiefer: That's weird. It looks like your ca, calendar just freed up every Thursday. [laughter] I mean, I wonder what happened. I wonder if you just...
Em Schulz: Oh shit, my phone actually... The microphone was on the whole time. I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you [0:11:26.6] ____ destroyed it.
Em Schulz: My phone is calling Delanie. No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You didn't realize you had a standing call every, uh, Tuesday [laughter] at 2:30.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, that was a really long-winded way of me telling you the fact that you're always changing your order, I... And you went from milk to almond milk and I...
Christine Schiefer: In fact to be fair, you do that too. Like, I will come in and you'll be like, thank you, and then I'll find out you haven't had that drink in six months and you'll never drink it again, and I'm like...
Em Schulz: But one... No, no, no. One thing that I really like about you is that you at least remember something I like, 'cause it's not like I drink something and then I can never have it again. Like, I just drink it and then I switch it up, but then I end up going back, I always flip flop. So sometimes you've given me something that I stopped drinking for a while, but it reignited the love and I went back to that, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay, I'll do that. I'm like that grandma who's like, who's like, Blaise's grandma like, oh, one time you said you liked Rolos, so your entire [laughter] identity will now consist of getting Rolos for every holiday.
Em Schulz: Yeah, right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, that's what I'm gonna be for you from now.
Em Schulz: Can you say that about a million dollars and see what happens, or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, sure. I'll, I'll go to the Dollar Tree and see what, what I can find.
Em Schulz: A million times?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, I'll get back to you.
Em Schulz: Well, umm...
Christine Schiefer: It was fun.
Em Schulz: Anyway, Christine, I know we just did this whole... I don't know, us talking... You know what, I don't even feel bad about it.
Christine Schiefer: Talking shit about me. Talking shit about me, by the way, this is my... This is like, day after Christine's half birthday, let's talk about all her many problems.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Happy belated half birthday Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Did you celebrate today with a big cup of mom coffee?
Christine Schiefer: I sure did and Leona has...
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: Double pink eye. So, you know, gasp, life is like...
Em Schulz: When is your baby gonna be healthy? Like, what's the...
Christine Schiefer: Like, never. [chuckle] This is apparently what life is...
Em Schulz: What's the status?
Christine Schiefer: Everyone is, like, duh, this what life is. And I was like, oh. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: So wait, do you also, like... I, I would, would assume, I was just raised by such an overprotective, like, Jewish mom. Like, so you're gonna get pinkeye, right? That's what that means, like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I assume so. I'm shocked I haven't gotten it yet. It has been a couple of days. I... I'm washing my hands constantly, which I kind of...
Em Schulz: Are you washing your eyes constantly? 'Cause like...
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm not touching my damn eyes, 'cause I know what's gonna happen if I do, but I am very actively washing my hands and as someone with, as I mentioned already, as we both have mentioned already, have pretty, pretty intense OCD sometimes. So, you know, it's pretty easy for me to get into a mind space of like, hey, this is the way that you'll fix everything. Wash your hands constantly.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So that's what I'm doing, and it's, it's, it's... My brain picked it up easily, you know? Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, we're on that, on that grind, and, umm, it's, it's... You know, it's just, umm... It's nice to be here with you and have...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Somewhere to really compartmentalize...
Em Schulz: Where everybody knows your name.
Christine Schiefer: And experience life with you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's nice, Christine. I'm glad you're here too.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks.
Em Schulz: Now, let's sit in that until it gets awkward for all of us. Never mind, I couldn't do it. [laughter] Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Let's say... Let's see, let's see, which one of us can't stand it. It's both. [0:14:23.3] ____.
Em Schulz: I'll always lose that game. Umm, okay, so is that, is that why you drink this week, or do you have another reason?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, yeah, listen, everything's fucking crazy. I feel like you and I are both in a, you know, like, a crazy head space with work stuff, we're like, overwhelmed. The holidays are coming up. Everyone's overwhelmed. You know, I did a bunch of like, secret Santa gifting. Like, there's this great thing called Operation Santa on USPS...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Where you can adopt kids, umm, and families and like, you know, "adopt them" obviously, like, in quotes, and...
Em Schulz: And then, mail them to you. No. I was just...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, [laughter] mail yourself to their house to say hi. [chuckle] No. And then you go to the post office and like, you... You know, they write little letters to Santa, they get scanned in. Obviously, with no identifying information. You can, you know, buy as little or as much as you want. You can, you know, send surprises and then you go to the post office, they scan the QR code and mail it for you, so obviously, you can't see the address and all that. But I was like, I know I'll adopt like 16 different people, and so, I've been just like, why am I... Why did I do this on the day where it's... Why on this? My day after my half birthday of all days, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I understand. I can't believe that Santa would do that to you.
Christine Schiefer: I can't believe I did it to myself. But yeah, so here we are. Anyway, otherwise, I'm fine. Everything's okay. It's fine, we'll be fine. And it's fine. How are you?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's fine, it's fine, as I'm white knuckling at a room of flames, it's fine. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Correct. That's exact... You get it.
Em Schulz: You know, okay, I feel... I'm feeling good. I'm feeling... I don't know... I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's nice. [laughter] I'm just kidding, I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: I, I, I have like... I feel like I'm really stressed for extended periods of time, and then I get a five-minute sliver of happiness until I'm stressed for a really extended period of time again. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Right now, I'm in the five-minute sliver, which is nice. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I feel like I've just been between Christmas, just to, like, throw all my fucking business out at everybody, I'm leaving, like, halfway through December, I'm going home, and then, like, as soon as the holidays are done, Christine and I are rehearsing to go back out on tour, and then I'm back out on tour. So I'm about to be gone for at least a month, and so, I'm, I'm stressed about that and getting presents over there, and the whole logistical kerfuffle of Christmas. On top of that, I got so many projects here I wanna get done, but I need to get them done in, like, two weeks or else they're not gonna be done for a month and two weeks, and... So anyway, right now I'm having like a one little moment, one little moment of happiness. I treated myself to some new Pokemon cards...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: I... Umm... Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay. So, I posted this on Thanksgiving, my DMs are going bananas folks, so...
Christine Schiefer: Tell me.
Em Schulz: Everybody's asking, if you don't follow me on Instagram, this is not your moment, but for everybody who follows me on Instagram and has been craving this, like, snack that I told everybody about on Instagram...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Christine...
Christine Schiefer: Clearly, I don't follow you on [laughter] Instagram. What are you talking about?
Em Schulz: Lean in. Let me, let me... Come here, come here. I want to tell you something.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just going to lean back, 'cause I'm getting [laughter] you know, actually nervous.
Em Schulz: Is my breath a little too... Is it on you? Can you feel it?
Christine Schiefer: No. No comment.
Em Schulz: Here's the thing. I went to my... Obviously, my aunt's for Thanksgiving. They had this... They had me try these peppers from Trader Joe's, I lost my mind, I mixed them up with some salami and some mozzarella. It changed my world. Alison and I can't stop eating them. I posted it on Instagram, and the people who got to see that post, I got a bunch of people sending me videos of them trying it and saying that it changed their life. So, for the people who are wondering what the hell the snack is, because every time I post it, someone misses it. You get yourself a Ritz cracker... Ready Christine? Ritz cracker. Write it down. Eva...
Christine Schiefer: It's... That's Leona's favorite... That's Leona's favorite food. We buy them in massive quantity. So...
Em Schulz: Great, so you're already set. Then...
Christine Schiefer: We've got a lot.
Em Schulz: Two slices... Two of dry salam... Well, salami, salami, two slices.
Christine Schiefer: Can't eat that, but okay, sure.
Em Schulz: Can you eat that? I don't know anymore, might be.
Christine Schiefer: No, I can't eat... I don't eat meat. But right, tomorrow, I'll be like that's my favorite food.
Em Schulz: Tomorrow you'll... Exactly. So when you're in the [laughter] mood for that, you pick up two slices of salami...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Put that on a Ritz cracker...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Get yourself a little mozzarella pearl, the little balls, the ones...
Christine Schiefer: I love those.
Em Schulz: The ones in the container with the juice, get the little ball.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: Okay. Then, go to Trader Joe's, you get yourself the Picante sweet peppers, they're red, they're full of cream cheese.
Christine Schiefer: Picante sweet... Oh yeah, those are good.
Em Schulz: Maybe if you're feeling, especially naughty, do a little Balsamic drizzle...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: Balsamic drizzle, little glaze, the glaze, not the vinegar glaze.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Commit to the bit, because it's gonna be a big ass bite, but you throw all that in your mouth at once...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's so good, Em.
Em Schulz: You'll be in heaven. The end.
Christine Schiefer: I'm hungry now. I'm hungry now and I'm...
Em Schulz: Well, don't eat...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: You can't eat until we're done. Because...
Christine Schiefer: Shit.
Em Schulz: People are gonna hear you eat that pepper, get nervous.
Christine Schiefer: Why do you... See, this is your fucking fault. I'm gonna yell at you now. [laughter] Why is this my fault?
Em Schulz: You can yell at me. That's okay. That's what this... The whole point of this podcast was to be a sounding board for our lives, so rip me up.
Christine Schiefer: I'm too tired and hungry.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, anyway, that's why I drink, because everyone needed to know about the snack [0:19:35.4] ____.
Christine Schiefer: But you had a good snack. Great. Cool. Sorry, now, now I'm just...
Em Schulz: The one day a year when you're, like, really into salami, you're gonna fucking text me and go, that was incredible. So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I believe you. It sounds incredible. I just, umm, I just don't have time to go to Trader Joe's. And I just went the other day. But maybe I'll go soon.
Em Schulz: Okay. And maybe you'll also, like, eat salami again, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Probably not, but the rest of it probably I'll try, so.
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Now that we've killed 20 minutes, what do you say we start a podcast?
Christine Schiefer: We did, we did kill... We killed it in the worst way, like, it's just... It's just dead air.
Em Schulz: It wasn't even fun for anybody. It was fun for me.
Christine Schiefer: No. Good. Well, congratulations. [laughter] Umm, now I'm feeling really bitchy. I don't know what's going on.
Em Schulz: Oh, do you... Do we need to sit with it for a second? You wanna talk about your feelings?
Christine Schiefer: Not even a little bit, but thanks for asking.
Em Schulz: Oh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Just kidding. That one was on purpose. [laughter] Okay, sorry, I'm all done. I'm ready for your story, and honestly, actually, you know what, I just realized, so I'm sometimes so good at compartmentalizing that I forget about the other things that are causing my... I'm really good at compartmentalizing, but then there's always this, like, underlying, like, emotional dysregulation that happens where I'm like, I'm upset about something, that's weird.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Is it me?
Christine Schiefer: And then I'm like, oh right. No.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, oh right, I compartmentalize that. I will... You'll find out when I do my story today, why I'm like, so out... I think that might be part of the problem. If I'm doing...
Em Schulz: Are we mad at the the system again?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it's just like, one of those, like, just... It's just, uh... You'll see. You'll know when I tell you.
Em Schulz: Okay. I feel like... Remember in the show Pinky and Brain when they're like, "What are we doing Brain?" [laughter] "Same thing we do every night Pinky, we take over the world."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like... I feel like, every episode I'm like, are you mad at the system again? Let's get into it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, too bad, 'cause it's not gonna change. Yeah. I know, I know. It's just... I think it just occurred to me why I might be especially, like, on edge today.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, I don't know what to... So, should we, should we breathe? How about we do that? Let's everyone, everyone listening to, maybe we all need to take a deep breath. So, wWe'll do three breaths.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you know what, actually probably, I do need to breathe. Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. Everyone get ready for your three breaths of the day. Okay. Go.
Christine Schiefer: Now people are gonna be like, stop breathing into the [laughter] microphone.
Em Schulz: And then the last one. Now, drink some water you dirty little rats.
Christine Schiefer: Let's crack into it.
Em Schulz: It looks like we finally found our opener. Okay, welcome to And That's Why We Drink, where we are all relaxed and not thirsty, but we are thirsty for the ghost story, so here we go. This is Mary King's close.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You put your hands up like, I was gonna start screaming or something. [laughter] I'm just like, staring at you and all of a sudden, you're like, throw your hands in the air.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I never know what's gonna get a reaction, so I just kinda...
Christine Schiefer: You like, scared me.
Em Schulz: Pause for the dramatics, but whatever. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I mean, no, I don't get me wrong. It was extremely dramatic. I just didn't understand my part in the whole process, but I get it now, so... Umm, okay, great. Uh, wow, cool. Never heard of it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Uh, so this is in Edinburgh, and... Uh, I said that right? Yes?
Christine Schiefer: You, you sure did.
Em Schulz: Last time, it might as well have been a laugh track and an angry mob all at the same time, because I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, excellent.
Em Schulz: Was a stupid American. So anyway, this is in Edinburgh and, uh, just getting straight into it. Umm, the, the land that we're talking about in Edinburgh, it was, umm, as of the 12th century, it belonged to Scotland. It became a bustling city after the 12th century, and then officially became the capital of Scotland in 1452. So far we're on a good track, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. Cool.
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm, it was a big part of the European enlightenment era, but things weren't going that great eventually, because as of 1560, uh, a wall... Did you know this? I feel like, this is probably one of those things that everybody on Earth now, and I'm the last person to figure it out. In 1560, a 24-foot tall wall was built around the city?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, didn't you cover the wall? [chuckle] Am I crazy? That was well...
Em Schulz: If I did it, it's... It just goes to show you how, uh, quickly things can fall right out of my head.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I did... I'm sure I've heard about it on a paranormal podcast too, but I, I thought there was, like, hauntings underneath the walls, I don't know. I could be wrong.
Em Schulz: That's what we're talking about today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter] okay. Umm, cool. Well, yeah...
Em Schulz: I haven't covered this before.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you covered the Edinburgh walls, is what you covered.
Em Schulz: Okay. That's not this.
Christine Schiefer: And I think in, in that episode, you talked about the walls, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. The wall around the city.
Em Schulz: Okay, okay. I was like, please, I, I just... I checked, I did not cover this. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: How gaslighting is that though? I'm like, you taught me about this.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: You don't know about it, but somehow you taught me.
Em Schulz: It was like complimenting me for my, like, wisdom, but also, like, so, like, reminding me that I'm an idiot at the same time.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, yeah, I know about the wall, you know? I don't know much about it, but I do know that it, it has a, like a, medieval wall around it or something around it.
Em Schulz: Okay. I have no idea about this, and I feel like, people who grew up in countries with better education systems are rolling their eyes, [chuckle] but you know, if you wanna feel bad for me, and again, I chose to be mad at the system today, so here we go.
Christine Schiefer: And I do. [chuckle] No, I was kidding.
Em Schulz: Okay. So in 1560, this... There was a 24-foot tall wall called The Flodden Wall that was built around the city, umm, to protect Edinburgh against English invasion. And since the town now could not grow, literally, grow any further than the confines of this wall... Umm, since it couldn't expand outward, they expanded upward, so it's a city that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: Essentially grew on top of itself.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, this resulted in many... Several story tall buildings, all cramped next to each other, and a lot of the streets, because of that, a lot of the streets between the buildings are incredibly narrow, because construction was trying to use up as much space as possible.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, just one more inch should be fine.
Em Schulz: Right. [chuckle] So...
Christine Schiefer: Just walk sideways. It's fine.
Em Schulz: Well, I looked up pictures online of, like, how narrow these streets are, and probably not everybody, but maybe, like, larger people would need to walk sideways. Some of, some of them are very, very narrow.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: Some of them seemed like they were normal street size, I think they vary, but the smaller ones I saw were, like, two slabs, two tile slabs long. Like, they were, like... You couldn't write a bike down it, it looked like, so...
Christine Schiefer: Imagine having a window right there, and you just, like, open the blinds and there's, like, another person.
Em Schulz: But imagine you fall in love.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is the duality of man. [laughter] This is the duality of Gemini. We're like, imagine the horror of seeing someone, but imagine if you fell in love. Okay.
Em Schulz: But like, like, it would be like, Taylor Swift's 'You Belong With Me' music video, like, what's wrong? Like, a note through the window.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, except you could just whisper and they'll probably hear you, so...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And, like, the, the response to what's wrong is that I'm so fucking close to your room.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like... That you won't stop talking to me. Okay? Leave me alone.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] You keep putting fucking notes on the window and I feel obligated to answer. [laughter] So, uh, yeah, it looked like the streets kind of varied in size, but all of them were narrow in their own way. Some of them were incredibly narrow, some were still like, you... If there was, like, walking traffic, it would pile up pretty quick.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And as new buildings were constructed, these alleys became even more winding and confusing, because now there were new things put in front of each of the streets. So, it eventually became like this maze where you had to... It feels like in my mind, as someone who's never been there, it sounds like you would almost want an expert guide with you walking down these streets. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like, an escort. I feel like, I... I mean, I'm lost just thinking about it, but I mean, that's me, but I'm sure a normal person could probably do better.
Em Schulz: Maybe it's not as bad as I'm imagining, but, umm, I have already spiraled and decided that it's a lot trickier than maybe it is, but, like, just the, just the pictures alone did make it seem at the very least, incredibly claustrophobic. Like, it's incredibly tall buildings. You really can't see anything other than, like, what's ahead of you. They're very tiny spaces. Like, in a horror movie, this would be exactly the alley you don't want to be having to run down or like, get caught in a flood or [chuckle] something, you know, like, you're fucking trapped in there.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: And because of the town's limited space, umm, 'cause remember, it was, like, just a... It was just a 24-foot wall, and it just built around the city. If you were middle class, upper class, anything like that, it didn't really matter what you were, you all lived pretty much on top of each other. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Which was unheard of at the time, 'cause usually, the wealthy class wanted to separate themselves from, eww, poor people.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Eww.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: There was example of a countess, who actually lived only one floor above a fishmonger, which I feel like that's how...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, forbid.
Em Schulz: I feel like, that's how Trey Song's friends describe me, it's like, the countess [laughter] lives about a fishmonger, you know?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But imagine, if they fell in love.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But imagine, if I just wrote one extra note about how concerned I am.
Christine Schiefer: Just imagine, how romantic the fishmonger and the countess, [laughter] that sounds like a children's fairy tale.
Em Schulz: It sounds, it sounds like the... Like, first draft of Shrek, like, [laughter] like the fishmonger and the countess.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like the... Like, a random creepy German fairy tale that Shrek was based on that they had to, like, make child-friendly for adults.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Some... [laughter] Certainly sounds like a Grimm Brothers situation.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it does.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Brothers Grimm. Brothers Grimm. Umm, so anyway, usually the wealthy would be separate from the middle class and lower class, but you know, it was... That wasn't the case right away. Eventually they ended up actually saying, like, we can't tolerate these plebs, so we're gonna make our own town and we're gonna call it New Town. Go figure, original.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, at least come up with something creative. That kills me.
Em Schulz: Like, all the money in the world, you can't pay, like, a writer to give you an idea about a different name?
Christine Schiefer: Like, none of you have, like, a little spark of creativity? Okay, fine.
Em Schulz: No. Umm, so anyway, while they're still living in Old Town, umm, the wealthy tried to separate themselves the best they could, but they really didn't have many options, so eventually they tried to make gated neighborhoods, but the neighborhoods are all on top of each other and right next to each other. So, the gates were, uh... They essentially put doors on some of these alleys and closed off access to them at night, [laughter] so only the wealthy could use them.
Christine Schiefer: It's so fucked up. They're like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So not only...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, a, it's modern security gate at a cul-de-sac, but...
Em Schulz: It's literally just like a wooden door with a latch, and they said, I have the key. Yeah. It was...
Christine Schiefer: They just decided. Cool, great.
Em Schulz: And, uh, so they pretty much closed off these narrow streets, which let me remind you again, these are really limited, like, pathways to get through. Like, so you're blocking off access to people's homes, I imagine, like, you're making it difficult at least.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So these gated narrow streets ended up being called closes. So, when it's... Mary King's Close, that's what a close is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see, okay, okay, okay, got you.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I never knew. I literally thought this whole time, it was gonna be like a closet or something.
Christine Schiefer: You're like, oh, looks like, Saoirse spelled closet wrong again.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was like... [laughter] Wow. Didn't know Saoirse was such a dummy forgetting to just put a T. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Closet.
Em Schulz: Umm, well, I've never known what a close was, I've never heard of that, so I...
Christine Schiefer: I did... I really didn't either, to be honest, so.
Em Schulz: It's one of those words where you hear it and you can kinda smile and nod through it, but you really...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I feel like, I know...
Em Schulz: And it's never in my vernacular.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like, if someone said, oh, you know what close... I'd be like, yeah. And then they'd be like, describe it. And I'd be like, hey, what's that over there?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'd be like, honestly, that's a fucking rude question. I'm like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, why don't you explain it, smartass?
Em Schulz: Exactly. Yeah, I had no idea. I always thought, like, a close in my mind truly was like, a, like, a, like a, a hill or something. Like, I didn't know. So, anyway...
Christine Schiefer: And then I would have said, no, you explain it. You would've said, hill and I would have said, yep, that's what it is, a hill, [laughter] and then we would have just believed that for the rest of our fucking lives, so it feels like...
Em Schulz: Excuse me.
Christine Schiefer: It feels a little bit messed up, but...
Em Schulz: I feel like you could ask... What you should have said is, like, the pun version, you should have gone you're close.
Christine Schiefer: You're close. Is that... Does that count? No? Okay.
Em Schulz: You're close. Umm, so anyway. [chuckle] Man, you really got me good there. So, these gated narrow streets are called closes and...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Into... Uh, uh, into these closes, which, like, it's so wild to think of like, that this is what the upper class was doing, and they thought they were so much fucking higher and mightier than everybody else, umm, they would dump their chamber pots from their windows into the closes at night.
Christine Schiefer: What a fucker. I knew they would do something like this. This is... This is... I mean, imagine the countess' shit just falling on your head when you're coming home from a long day of mongering fish. This is like...
Em Schulz: It's like, I am already a fish monger and now I have... I mean, I'm the poop monger, you know? So...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like, Thanks a lot, you know? I was gonna fall in love with you too, countess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was this close, until...
Christine Schiefer: This close.
Em Schulz: You ex... You showed me too much too soon, I think. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We got too much.
Em Schulz: So obviously, one of the first problems that people noticed as all the wealthy people, and I... And probably, honestly, all the people, 'cause they're... If the rich didn't have toilets, I don't think anyone else had toilets either, I think everyone was just throwing their chamber pots into the streets at night, umm. And the streets didn't have drains, they didn't have any street cleaning, there was no sanitation, like, laws back then, or like, a service that could come out.
Christine Schiefer: It's just hor... It's horrible.
Em Schulz: So there was waste upon waste upon waste, and keep in mind, this is a whole town within, like, a, a, a literal confined area, so very quickly it adds up, you know? So...
Christine Schiefer: Eww. There's nowhere for it to go.
Em Schulz: Think of everyone in a 10-story apartment building throwing their poop out the window, that's day one, it's a mess. Day one. Let alone, no one's ever coming to clean it.
Christine Schiefer: Day one is a mess. Yeah. And it just comes happening. Yeah, that's just terrible.
Em Schulz: Umm. So the waste over time, and I'm assuming very quickly, umm, began to clog the pathways, so...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Now, now what? Like, you thought...
Christine Schiefer: Now, now what?
Em Schulz: You were fancy with your little gated door and now you gotta walk through poop, so, good luck. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Good luck.
Em Schulz: At the same time, uh, we talked about this in the past, but in this area, the cemetery had become overcrowded, and when it became overcrowded, they started, uh, burying the bodies even shallower on top of the bodies that are buried deeper, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [0:35:14.8] ____.
Em Schulz: There were shallow bodies and shallow graves in an overcrowded cemetery and the smell, because they weren't buried far enough would start to waft out of the graveyard.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And on windy days where a whole town made out of alleys, that are just like, wind... Like, you know what I mean? Like, they're just, just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're like, wind tunnels.
Em Schulz: I don't know what the right word is. Wind tunnels, yes. Umm, so now you've got the cemetery with, like, the smell of corpses just blowing through the entire town non-stop, and you've got the smell of everybody's poop on the street blowing through on top of that.
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm just... I'll be honest, I'm surprised anyone fell in love back then. Like, this sounds like the least romantic... [laughter] I don't know. I just keep thinking, [laughter] like, what if you fell in love with the count... Like, you couldn't. You'd just feel fucking grossed out all the time.
Em Schulz: I literally like... I don't... I, I have thought about that too. Umm, I was watching, umm, I don't know, like, a 'Bridgeton' or something like that, and just like, first just in the amount of clothes they would make people wear on a summer day...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then you are...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Expected to go bang it out together, that doesn't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, with no AC. I mean, you know...
Em Schulz: Uff.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I, I understand that that's...
Em Schulz: No showers. Sometimes, sometimes a shower.
Christine Schiefer: They had to work with, but like, you know, I just... I'm like, it just seems rough.
Em Schulz: It's amazing that the population is what it is today, when... Like, well, I guess there wasn't any birth control, but I'm amazed people were getting naked with each other. [laughter] Like, I would... Just, there shouldn't be this many people today, but somehow...
Christine Schiefer: It just feels like, you'd be...
Em Schulz: They just kept popping kids out.
Christine Schiefer: You wouldn't be like... You'd be like, eh, not today, you know?
Em Schulz: Not even...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like, I'd be like, ugh.
Em Schulz: I don't... Maybe I've just got too many sensory issues or something, or I just like... The idea of being sweaty first of all, in any context, no, but also like, [laughter] underneath that many clothes and then putting my hot sweaty body on someone else's hot sweaty body after they've been in that many clothes and it's 100 degrees outside, are you fucking kidding me? Absolutely not. Like...
Christine Schiefer: I almost think I'd be less like, worried about what other people smell like and just be like, constantly, umm, like, paranoid that I smell. You know what I mean? Like, I don't even think I would be like, grossed out by everyone else. I think I would just be constantly like, I can't go around other... I, like, don't...
Em Schulz: I wonder...
Christine Schiefer: "Don't come near me, I stink," you know?
Em Schulz: I also wonder if, I also wonder if BO is like a, umm, uh... Like, I wonder if we're hypersensitive to BO...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you know?
Em Schulz: Because it's so rare that we smell it, but for them, maybe they didn't even notice.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like it... Well, I just read a post on Reddit that said, like, explain to me like I'm five, why we have to take such great care of our teeth nowadays, even though like, for most of humanity, umm, they didn't have access to that. And the responses were really interesting, 'cause I've kinda always wondered that as well. And it's because... Well, one of the reasons is because we eat so much refined sugar nowadays...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And foods that, uh, the bacteria in your mouth are, like, really drawn to. So we just have to like fight that more. Umm, but then also, it's just like, people who didn't have... Or who had really bad teeth issues just didn't make it very long. Or, you know, they just didn't...
Em Schulz: Oh shit, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So anyway, that's... I feel like, I wonder if the BO too is like, also a response to maybe the clothes we wear nowadays or like, using deodorant that does X, Y, and Z. I don't know, like, maybe our bodies have changed over time. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe. But also maybe they fucking smelled, like, I don't... [laughter] I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they smelled, I'm sure. Like, to be clear, they definitely smelled uh, to be clear. But, umm, I just wonder if, like, yeah, you're...
Em Schulz: I just like... I can't imagine if you ha... If you had, like, I'm a... This is fully an exaggeration, but for the sake of the story. If you're only getting like, a annual shower or like, a monthly shower or something, like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think there were showers. Uh, I'm gonna be honest, I don't think there were showers.
Em Schulz: Or bath or whatever. If you're, if you're only washing yourself with like, river water most of the time, which has its [laughter] own fucking bacteria...
Christine Schiefer: River water.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know, like...
Christine Schiefer: I think they like, boiled the water... I mean, okay. Yeah. They didn't bathe very often. You're probably right on that. Yes.
Em Schulz: I just... I, I don't know if I... This... As obsessed as I am with time travel, I could not go in the past. I could not, because I'd be like, I cannot blend in. I will stick out like a sore thumb. And I'm not interested in disguising myself by smelling like that.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be carrying like a mini deodorant around.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, what... But honestly, think about time travel. If they came to the future, they'd be like, what the fuck does that... Why does everyone smell like, linen all of a sudden and, and fresh scent? What's going on? [chuckle] You know?
Christine Schiefer: They... They'd be like, why does everyone keep walking really far away from me? [laughter] Do I smell? Yeah.
Em Schulz: No, they... Why is the deodorant sales girl trying to just throw this at me? Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Throw this at my body.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: But like, and I even wonder, like, if you showed them like, a t-shirt and it's like, it's okay, you can just wear this. Like, you don't have to torture yourself. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I would... I bet they would feel so naked, you know?
Em Schulz: Right?
Christine Schiefer: Without all the layers.
Em Schulz: But also, they'd kind of like it, I think. No?
Christine Schiefer: I wonder about that all the time, 'cause I'm like, if there are ghosts in my house from the Victorian era, are they like, "What the fuck are you wearing?" I mean, I'm wearing right now pajama pants with leopard print and like, a t-shirt that says, "Momster." [laughter] I'm like, are they just looking at me like, "What the fuck has happened?" Humanity? Probably.
Em Schulz: Probably. I mean, they had like, fluffy neckerchiefs for sitting at home by themselves. Like, I...
Christine Schiefer: For like, going to bed. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Right? Like, they wore, like... I don't, I don't know. I don't know what they... Buckles on their shoes and shit. And like, now I'm like, [laughter] if I even have shoes on, it's a good day. Like, so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Now you have flip... Fish flops and they're like...
Em Schulz: And my shoes are made of sponge and fishes. Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And we have the audacity to say that we've like progressed as humanity.
Em Schulz: Right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, seriously? Are you sure?
Em Schulz: They're looking at you and like, what are on your feet? And you're like, recycled water bottles. You wouldn't understand. So... Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Recycled water bottles. Okay, I'm saving the planet. What are you doing?
Em Schulz: Umm. Anyway, so we've really gone off on a tangent. And like, I, I'm very aware that I've probably said some really un-uneducated things about like the hygiene of several centuries ago, but I openly say, I don't know what I'm talking about here. I don't... I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're just...
Em Schulz: But I'm taking my best shot that it probably wasn't what it is today. We'll just leave it there.
Christine Schiefer: It couldn't have been pleasant.
Em Schulz: Umm, especially when you're trekking through everyone's poop in, in your only pathway out of the city, you know? So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good luck.
Em Schulz: Anyway. Unless you were super rich and you lived really high up in the towers where you could avoid the wind hitting you.
Christine Schiefer: Or probably... Oh, oh, the wind. I was gonna say you probably... Some people probably was... Were able to get around the transportation by like, I don't know. Do they have other... They have people to carry them, or like a...
Em Schulz: Carry them...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Carriage? I don't know. A horse?
Em Schulz: Probably my, my immediate thought was like a fucking piggyback ride. I was like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean... [laughter] I mean, that pro... They probably could have made that work too. But I meant more like, one of these like, sedan things where you sit on it and they, like, carry you.
Em Schulz: Right. I don't, I don't think they had... They... Maybe I... Maybe someone built that just to stay... I would've, just to stay away from the poop. [laughter] But, umm, I don't... I think most people were just raw dogging it in their shoes. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Swamped in those. Gross. Cool.
Em Schulz: And so, if you didn't live high up enough in the towers where, you know, the wind wasn't hitting your window, umm, then you were living in the thick of it. You were smelling decomposing bodies next door, you were smelling poop downstairs.
Christine Schiefer: Nasty.
Em Schulz: And uh, it was a rough time. So, the buildings also started expanding, because more people were showing up and they're like, we don't know where to house these people. Umm, they started turning their cellars into homes. So now there's underground homes for the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: The poorer people, which means that you're pouring your chamber pots on the street...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Which slides down the stairs into their cellar house.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that's just horrifying. Horrifying.
Em Schulz: You know how like, in the winter, you're afraid to go downstairs in the city, because you'll slip on ice?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Oh God!
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. Imagine!
Em Schulz: That's rough. That's a rough one.
Christine Schiefer: Slipping. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Slipping face first.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Em, oh no.
Em Schulz: So the Royal Mile, uh, is this thing, it's, it's called the Royal Mile, but it's a historical route through the city, umm, with a number of closes that you can walk through. So I think it's like a tourist attraction now in some ways. And the closes are usually named, which I didn't know this, the closes are named after notable people who lived on them. So, uh, like, Craig's Close. Craig was, I guess, the most pop...
Christine Schiefer: Like, Glenn?
Em Schulz: Glenn, Glenn Close. [laughter] Yes. Glenn was the most popular girl of her close, for sure. [laughter] So they were named either after like, names, like Craig's or Glenn's, umm, or they were named after businesses. So it would be like, old fish market close.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm, okay.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine living on the old fish market and the fish market gets the name and you don't? Like, what are you doing?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, your name's Glenn and they... You're like, it was right there.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Glenn Close, it was right there. And they didn't even know. So, gross.
Em Schulz: It's right there, in all of the puppy dog fur I have in my closet. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So embarrassing!
Em Schulz: Umm, so I, I like to wond... I, I don't know this at all, but I wonder if there was some sort of, umm, like, a stereotype at the time of like, if you lived on a close that was named after a business and not a people, then all the people were shitty, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. Maybe.
Em Schulz: Just to like... Just to create scandal. Like, you know I'd be that girl, like... [laughter] I just...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, you're just implanting rumors hundreds of years later. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And what are they gonna do about it? No, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But I, I like to imagine someone had an opinion and that person was probably me before I reincarnated over here...
Christine Schiefer: You've gotta bully... You've gotta bully someone.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Uh, you see, [chuckle] you understand. So...
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Among the most famous of these closes is Mary King's Close. So, umm, which, uh, I'm trying to see where I talk about how she got her name.
Christine Schiefer: I almost said, "I've heard of that." And then I'm like, "Oh. Right, 'cause you said it 10 minutes ago."
Em Schulz: I was like, girl, we're here now.
Christine Schiefer: Girl.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. So I will talk about how Mary King got her name on the close, but before we do, my notes are just a little, uh, scattered today. Sorry. Not Saoirse. It was me trying to make things better and then I made things worse. So...
Christine Schiefer: You just changed the word close to closet 80 times and then had to undo it. [laughter] You're like, oh shit. That's not what I meant to do.
Em Schulz: I actually put Glenn front of, uh, Mary King and I [laughter] almost messed everything up. [laughter] So, uh, already this area, it was, umm, it was... There was a lot of superstitions in the town. Uh, people already had a lot of religious beliefs, and there were even like, some supernatural sightings just throughout town. There was a lot of strange lights, especially over their lake, there was a lot of strange lights.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And I only wanna put this in because I, I think it's like a fun fact is that, so people were seeing strange lights over the lake and nobody ever figured out what they were. But now, people say that it was probably a combination of all the methane gas from the dead bodies and poop.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And, uh, the reduced oxygen from...
Christine Schiefer: Swamp gas.
Em Schulz: And the reduced oxygen from being in such close quarters in these pathways, that...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
Em Schulz: You were only breathing in gas and causing yourself to hallucinate.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, my computer started talking. It scared the shit out of me.
Em Schulz: Who was it? What'd she say?
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I think I hit a button when I was overreacting and it started talking like, it was like, doing like, an accessibility, like read the page, and it said, "And that's why we drink." And I... [laughter] Scared the absolute bejesus out of me. [laughter] And now... Okay, I'm trying to close it. I don't even know what this is. I downloaded the new Google Chrome and I think it has like, settings I've never heard of. I'm so sorry. Okay. Well, I can see...
Em Schulz: Is she becoming sentient? Is that what's happening?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I see half your face. So, well, I apologize for screaming. Umm, that was unintentional. Uh, okay. I got rid of it. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Do you, do you still see half my face or all my face?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, no. I, I, I pull... Whew. You're back. Oh!
Em Schulz: Are you?
Christine Schiefer: I apo... I apo... No, I'm gone... I've left the building, but it's okay. My husk is still here and my husk can podcast like, the best of them, so it's fine.
Em Schulz: That's... That is fully called dissociation, my friend.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was literally... [laughter] I know!
Em Schulz: But my husk can handle it. The rest of me is not here.
Christine Schiefer: Why does everyone keep telling me that? Umm, yeah, that's, that's swamp gas, right? Methane...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I think swamp gas is what they like, try to say all UFOs are, umm, either weather balloons or swamp gas.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: So that's fascinating and gross.
Em Schulz: Isn't it? Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That you could breathe in so much poop that umm, you just go crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what? Oh, I didn't hear that part.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: What? What are talking about? [laughter] I thought you meant that the lights were the methane gas.
Em Schulz: Oh no, that they believe that... Uh, oh, maybe that's what it was. I don't even remember anymore. I've lost my spot.
Christine Schiefer: You thought everyone smelled poop and went crazy? I mean, that's [laughter] also a likely scenario...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Honestly, I'd go fucking crazy.
Christine Schiefer: If you'd said that, I'd be like, yeah, me too.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Maybe I read the notes wrong. I really thought it was like, you breathe in the poop and go crazy, 'cause like, it's enough methane gas from...
Christine Schiefer: Ooo... Wait, read it again. I was listening to a robot talk while you said it, uh, really loud in my ears. So I apologize.
Em Schulz: My understanding, my understanding... No, no, no. You probably actually correct me before the Internet did. But, umm, my understanding was that there was so much poop that you're walking through, plus the smell of the dead bodies that you are actually breathing in that shit, non-stop. Plus the reduced oxygen from walking in such narrow pathways eventually caused you to hallucinate. But...
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious?
Em Schulz: Maybe you are right... Where, where the lights were methane gas on their own far away and we just also happened to be having, being deprived of oxygen by being in close pathways. It could be either.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, I missed the oxygen part. I'm sure that doesn't help. Umm, but yeah.
Em Schulz: It could be both.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like, I feel like that, that matches swamp gas, umm, at sort of like, where methane... I don't know.
Em Schulz: Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense. Umm, for the plot, I'm gonna assume both of them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I like that.
Em Schulz: I mean, I'm not calling myself an expert over here. Not today. Maybe on others.
Christine Schiefer: Not today. Some other day.
Em Schulz: Maybe on another day. Not today.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, I grew up in the American education system. I don't know what to tell you. So maybe I breathe in too much poop.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No comment.
Em Schulz: So on top of the smells of dead bodies and poop all the time, then Edinburgh gets slammed by the Bubonic Plague, which we just talked about last week too.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: This area got 11 waves of the Bubonic Plague.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: Sometimes these waves killed as much as a fifth of the population at once in just a few months.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Which like, how, how it... I feel like, 11 waves, where sometimes up to 20%... I don't know math that well, but like, 11 times up to 20% of your population, there should be no people left. There should be no people left.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming it was not 20% every time, 'cause that really would not make any sense.
Em Schulz: No. Uh, only once it was up to 20%.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So...
Em Schulz: But it's still like, just like, I... It's just... It's, it's unfathomable.
Christine Schiefer: It boggles the mind.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It does, yeah. It boggles the mind, even after COVID-19, which I feel like we've recorded episodes like this pre-COVID-19 pandemic, and we were like, thank God that doesn't happen anymore. And now we have a little more hindsight, but still it is... Umm, it's still hard to believe, uh, how many people were killed...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Back then.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I think last week, I, I already forget the number, but it was somewhere between like, 75 and 200 million people or something. So...
Christine Schiefer: It's unbelievable. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And by the way, speaking of COVID-19, I'm not saying we should have gone...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, we don't talk about that enough. You know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm not saying...
Christine Schiefer: Let's talk about that more.
Em Schulz: I'm not saying we should have gone as intense as these people, but I am saying, uh, over-overwhelmingly, in a, in a general way, I'm very proud of how they tried to handle the Bubonic Plague at the time. And I feel like we could have taken a page from their, uh, from their book, because...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, forget like, studying vaccines. Like, do whatever Em's about to tell you to do.
Em Schulz: Well, [laughter] if they had a vaccine back then for the Bubonic Plague, I would've told them to fucking take it. Let's be clear.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. Just making sure.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But, but on, on top of... Like, for the time period, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Given the amount of people in 2020 that refused to be...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Actively for the people, you know, with, with the, with COVID, this is what they did. Umm, in Edinburgh during the Bubonic Plague, they took it very seriously, enforced night curfews for everybody, where you could not leave your home. They shut down schools, they shut down businesses. They had 12-day mandatory quarantines for every person who either is infected or was near somebody infected and they banned people from coming into the town. And if you were caught letting people stay with you, that did not live in that town, and you might have accidentally created an outbreak, you would be branded.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: One guy who... This... I'm not saying this is like, the way it should have been handled, but it does ring true to so many stories we heard during COVID of like, someone being like, "Oh, well, you know, someone I live with is sick, but I don't really wanna miss going to the movies, blah, blah, blah." There was one guy who knew his wife was sick and went to church anyway. And when everyone found out, they hanged him.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And then, there was another woman who brought in illegal imports, which caused an outbreak and she was drowned.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Gasp.
Em Schulz: They were not fucking around, in like, such a serious way.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but I guess they were like, during the plague, you're probably gonna die anyway. So like, I don't know, I don't know what they were thinking, but it was... They really were not fucking around with...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like panic. Sounds like panic.
Em Schulz: Full panic, hysteria, probably.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and the plague was bad everywhere, but especially in like, a town that's nothing but crowded areas, and the only place you can get around is through these really narrow pathways...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Where you're pretty much destined to get infected if somebody else is near you and they're sick. So in 1645, one outbreak caused half of the city's population to die.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit!
Em Schulz: Mary King's Close was hit, especially hard...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which is why it is now so haunted.
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: Umm, so I said, I'd get back to why we named her... Why we named the close after Mary King. So Mary King ended up being a, uh, clothing merchant and she was a Burgess, so a Burgess, I didn't know this, but it was a title that only really important people got. And they held an authority in their community and they had political sway in their community, and she ended up getting it through marriage. Her husband had this title, and then when he died, he left it to her, which I didn't know you could leave a title to somebody, but...
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: But he ended up like, really hooking her up, because she became very powerful at a time when a lot of women didn't. And her... Because she was in, like, clothing and fabrics, her whole close, her whole community, was very vibrant residents and craftsmen.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And it was a very lovely neck of the woods. She also, by the way, when she was given this Burgess title, she was able to, uh... She was given a city council seat, which again, unheard of for women back then. And it gave her the right to vote, which the rest of Scotland's women couldn't do for another 300 years.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Geez. 300 more years. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: So, the fact that her husband was like, "I'm not leaving you to dry. Like, you're gonna be fine." Like, that was pretty dope.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Damn.
Em Schulz: Umm, unfortunately, even though she had this really wonderful community of a bunch of like, crafty arts people who all lived together in harmony, when the plague hit, every single person in this close died.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Some stories say that they actually just closed their close gates door and just locked it, and just let everyone die in there.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa!
Em Schulz: Which is a rumor, is not true. Umm, if people were there, umm, and they were sick, they would have... Or if people were left there and were like, starving or something like that, they would've been given quarantine provisions like everybody else. It's... So, it's not true.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, but it adds to the creepies factor. And eventually, when the plague left, only a few years later, Oliver Cromwell led an English invasion into the city. Umm, he scorched the earth, thus killing all their crops and cutting off their resources. And that's how he captured the city. And then years after that, there were outbreaks of cholera and smallpox through these closes. So, just death, death, death, death, death, death, death.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: In the 1680s, this is our first ghost story, there was a lawyer who moved in with his wife. Umm, he moved into the neighborhood that's still called Mary King's Close. And one day, his wife was relaxing, when all of a sudden she felt a presence near her and she could feel herself being watched by someone.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: Umm, when she looked up, she saw a disembodied head of an old man floating above her chair.
Christine Schiefer: That's quite a time to realize someone's watching you. Like, you know, [laughter] sometimes you're like, man, I had no idea you were staring at me. And like, sometimes you're like, I can sense...
Em Schulz: Yeah. You hope it's like a squirrel or something.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're like, oh, it's just a little squirrel. Or like a little bug. And then, umm, oh, a disembodied head.
Em Schulz: [0:56:36.4] ____ head.
Christine Schiefer: Well, thank you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you, nervous system, for recognizing that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And like, floating above your... Like, is that, did you breathe in too much poop air? Is that what happened? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That, uh, honestly, I'm going back to your old theory about the poop air, 'cause that is pretty bananas.
Em Schulz: Well, apparently, she passed out and then when she came to, she told her husband what she saw. But of course, he didn't believe her until that night when he was sleeping and he wakes up from a heavy presence in the room and he feels like he's being stared at. And it was no squirrel, but it was the floating head.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus!
Em Schulz: Thomas, the husband, freaks out. He starts praying that the head will go away and [chuckle] maybe it's just the atheist in me, but the literal religious defiance is so funny here, because he prays that the head will go away and instead, a whole second head floats into the room.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. To be fair, you say the atheist in you, but you are always the one who says the... Anytime you're scared, the first thing you do is say, okay, Jesus, come on in.
Em Schulz: They're... Jesus...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I'm like, is this what would happen to Em in this scenario? "Our Father who are in heaven," and now all of a sudden, like, head num... My twin, head number two comes in?
Em Schulz: I, shit... Honestly, if I were praying and like, something like that was happening to me, and then a second head came in, as I'm praying, even further back into my head, I think I would be recognizing that it was overdue. It was like, probably earned... [laughter] Like... It's like...
Christine Schiefer: You're right. I've never even been into a church. I don't know what I'm... Who I'm trying to kid here.
Em Schulz: You could... You obviously know that, umm, I'm only reaching out to you at a time of crisis. And if this... If this is karma, then it's karma.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So, anyway, uh, he prayed the head would go away, instead a second one... [laughter] This one's a child's head...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no!
Em Schulz: Floats into the room.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. I thought it was funny, then it was a child...
Em Schulz: Evil. Canceled, canceled, canceled, canceled.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I thought it was like, meant... It's a dead child. So I was like, well, that's upsetting. I mean, it's all upsetting, but...
Em Schulz: No, no, it was... It was just a second head... I think there, I think we can still laugh. Like, I know it's fun... Like, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: I don't... Well, hang on a second. I'll tell you why in a second. So then, not only there's the head, then there's the...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Child's head floating around. Then there's a ghostly cat who comes through the door, as he's still praying for things to go away.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my...
Em Schulz: This cat all of a sudden shows up like, oh, and I'm part of the fuck you party also. And then...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're like, oh, well, who's... We're partying in here. Come on in.
Em Schulz: Then a ghostly dog walks in and then... Like, he's praying wrong. Like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is... Yeah, I was gonna say is, are you sure he is not reciting like the, the little old lady who swallowed a fly? 'Cause I feel like that, this is like, actually the plot.
Em Schulz: He's actually praying backwards in Latin. It's really weird, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I think that might be what's going on. He's saying a, a hex.
Em Schulz: And then a pair of disembodied arms just floats on in...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: I feel like, as disembodied arms, what direction are they when they just... When they choose to free float on their own, are they hands up, hands down, to the side? Are they palm out, palm in?
Christine Schiefer: Are they doing the Macarena?
Em Schulz: Do they have the elbow?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Is the elbow involved? So like, are they kind like, bent and flapping around?
Christine Schiefer: Somebody messaged me about... Remember when you asked me if a neck and a throat, like, where are they, [laughter] something like, wrote in to me on... I did... I haven't even read it yet. I haven't gotten to my DMs, but I saw somebody was like, "Hey, as like a, I think an EMT or something, like, let me tell you where the throat is." And I was like, okay, good. Next time Em asks, I'll be ready. I have to go open that DM and I'll be ready.
Em Schulz: But did they tell you where the threck is?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think again, you invented that term. Umm, and we did trademark it.
Em Schulz: I think it makes total sense and it sounds, it's one of those onomatopoeias where you hear threck, you... It makes the same sound that you're...
Christine Schiefer: I hear shreck though. I, I don't hear a... I don't, I don't have the same association with...
Em Schulz: No, because when you hear threck it sounds as aggressive as the way your threck moves when someone tries to touch it. Like... You know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure. Yeah. Actually I can... Yeah. Okay, I get it. I do.
Em Schulz: See?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're right.
Em Schulz: Makes sense. I know. Okay. [laughter] Anyway, tell the ENT I, I sent you. [laughter] She'll know what it means.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. You're... I'll tell them that you're not... They're not needed any longer. [laughter] Thank you for your input.
Em Schulz: It's like, you and your threck can walk right out of our DMs [laughter] with... Without any information on it. [laughter] Umm, so anyway, I don't know what direction the disembodied arms are. I don't know if one's being funny and one's upside down while the other one's right side up. I don't know. However you choose to imagine is great. Thomas continues to pray and the apparitions all start laughing and dance around, almost as if mocking his prayers. [laughter] It's like, literally like, something out of an evil Dr. Seuss. It's like crazy.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like a cartoon. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Then he hears a moan out of nowhere and then all of a sudden, they disappear. But then, weeks later, he gets really sick and he starts hallucinating, and seeing circles of crows around him.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And very soon after that he died.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh no!
Em Schulz: So, that makes me wonder, like, was this an illness that causes hallucinations? And also does that mean all the ghosts were also hallucinations, you know? But then like, his wife also saw it, did she also die recently?
Christine Schiefer: That part's... Wait a second. But what if she saw it, told him about it, he didn't believe her and then it was already in his mind as an idea.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: So when he hallucinated, that's what his brain conjured, you know?
Em Schulz: Oof. Rough time. Okay. Well, there's your first, uh, ghost story. And then I wanna say over time, more and more people started abandoning the narrow streets, especially the wealthy, who moved to New Town. And in the 18th century, now that the rich had left and now it was just eww, plebes in the old town, they decided that they were going to build a brand new royal exchange to compete with New Town, which I love that they're like, "We're gonna build a trade building better than the rich, which like... [laughter] I appreciate the gusto. I appreciate that. [laughter] Umm, so they decided that Mary King's close was the perfect spot for the exchange, but there were already houses and buildings there. And instead of like, digging out the foundations to fully get rid of the houses, they just tore down the upper floors and built the exchange on top. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: By putting the exchange on top of the lower floors, 'cause remember people started living in the cellars.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It essentially buried the original underground, so it became a street on top of a street.
Christine Schiefer: Understood. Understood. Okay.
Em Schulz: That makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yep.
Em Schulz: Umm, some people did stay in their cellar homes and uh, like in like the underneath the ground homes, meaning that they ended up living literally underground and would have to take back alleys and tunnels to get back up to the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Ground. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Like, like mole people.
Em Schulz: Like, mole people. [laughter] Yeah. I'll tell 'em you said that. [laughter] Umm, so in 1902, the last business in Mary King's Close, uh, officially closed and that was 150 years after it went underground. So there were businesses until 1902 that were still operating underground there and then closed down.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Do you know what the last holdout was?
Em Schulz: No. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Maybe being in a fucking creepy abandoned street by yourself and, [laughter] you know?
Christine Schiefer: No, I mean, like, what was the store, like what was the last like, hold... Like...
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, oh, oh. Sketchers, [laughter] I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. They really are the only ones left at the mall, huh? Yeah, that's true.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, now there's underground... Uh, there's this, an underground neighborhood, which is even more enclosed than it ever was above ground, now that it's been wiped out and a whole new street's been put on top. And when people lived down there, illness spread because... They spread even worse, really, because now you don't even have access to open air.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, then there was a crime issue because nobody could see what was going on down there. So it was like the underbelly and...
Christine Schiefer: Free for all. Yeah.
Em Schulz: A lot of... Exactly. So it just got worse and worse. And then in... There actually was a poet who wrote about the con... The conditions of this underground town, and he said, "The condition of the inhabitants is as little known to respectable Edinburgh as are the habits of moles and earthworms." Umm...
Christine Schiefer: The mole people. He gets it!
Em Schulz: You actually nailed it. It's like, you were the poet reincarnate. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's incredibly rude and I wouldn't... Uh, like, come on. Like, just 'cause they're... Yeah. Anyway, but, but yes. Okay.
Em Schulz: I, I gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So those who lived and worked in the underground, uh, close, they often reported ghosts wandering the buildings, which like, I, I do wonder, as much as I'm a believer, I wonder how much of the random sounds they must have heard was just a whole fucking town upstairs, you know, or like...
Christine Schiefer: It was a mole, a literal mole, [laughter] a real one. I feel like you'd maybe...
Em Schulz: The one that was staring at everyone and then became disembodied heads.
Christine Schiefer: Right? [laughter] I just feel like, you'd have so many like, random things that you wouldn't normally expect in your day-to-day life, if you're living literally underground, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Like, moles.
Christine Schiefer: Like, moles. You know what, I've said enough bullshit today. You, you can go now. Yeah, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: I've got it, I've got it from here.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, above ground, uh, people were still seeing strange lights over, uh, the lake. And once the last business closed, the town was officially abandoned. And so, now there's like a whole abandoned town underneath.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: And it was only used temporarily, again, as a bomb shelter during World War II. So that probably added only worse stuff to it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In 2003, the Mary King's Close and the, the closes, in general, I guess, or the underground town became its own attraction. But before that, before 2003, which only 20 years ago, people like me in high school, their like, favorite thing to do was to go try to explore this abandoned town.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, 'cause of course. I mean, I get it. I would've...
Em Schulz: 'Cause I would've done it too. I would've totally done it. And imagine if like, there was like one, like, kinda like, tall, lanky bad boy in the corner, and he was like...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I already imagined it. I'm like, I'm not... [laughter] It's... I, I saw exactly what you're outlining in my... Like, you know exactly where my brain went anyway. Oh. The way... The same reason I started the Scrabble Squad at my high school. You know? [laughter] Just like, trying to impress a boy who was interested in my friend. You know, it's tale as old as time. [laughter] Why are you laughing? It's my true life.
Em Schulz: I'll, I'll never... Like, it feel... It's truly written out of a television series, for you to even have the gall to say, "Oh, I was trying to impress him. That's why I created the Scrabble Squad." [laughter] I can't imagine a more Tina Belcher experience.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's relatable. What can I say?
Em Schulz: Did you have shirts? Can we... Can I join? Can I make... I'll make shirts. Do you want a shirt?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you could have joined until you started shitting all over the Scrabble Squad and then... [laughter] And how unsexy it is, and then I kind of changed my mind, like, maybe I don't want you, [laughter] I don't want a hater, you know? Involved.
Em Schulz: What if I told you I knew like a really cool, lanky bad boy in the corner?
Christine Schiefer: I thought you were gonna say a really cool word. And I was like, actually that might get you into the Scrabble Squad.
Em Schulz: The word is romance, my friend and I can get you there. So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You know what? I am nothing if not fickle. So yeah, sure. You can come in.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And by the way, I don't know if I've told you this, but I really like salami now. Umm, it's my new favorite food. So...
Em Schulz: Fuck you. I really... That... The first reaction you just saw was me going, is she fucking kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: You, you made a face. And I was like, oh, I've, I've angered the beast. I'm so sorry. Uh, that wasn't on purpose.
Em Schulz: If anyone's watching YouTube, go back in time, because that was a real reaction of me thinking... Do... Ha...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: I literally was flabbergasted. I was like, she...
Christine Schiefer: I think it was too... Maybe it was too niche of a callback. Did everybody else understand that? Or was it like, what the fuck? Why would you say that right now? Like, did anybody get it?
Em Schulz: It was perfectly niche, but I... It really... I want you to know that it's actually happened like that so many times, where that face has happened so many times, where I'm like, is she kidding me? Like, in the... Like, two conversations ago...
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes.
Em Schulz: She said, she doesn't need eat this shit anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes I am kidding. Mostly I'm not. So...
Em Schulz: I'm gonna, you know what? If you keep it up, I'm gonna call you a really awful word, but I'm not gonna say it to you. I'm just gonna spell it in the Scrabble Squad.
Christine Schiefer: Hey. You... I was gonna say, [laughter] you can write it down next meeting. I'll figure it out.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, I like to think that Scrabble Squad has a word du jour, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, yeah. Uh, me too. But you know?
Em Schulz: What's your word today?
Christine Schiefer: The word of the day?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Salami?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say salami. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay. So in 2003, it became its own attraction. Umm, but before then people would try to explore it, although it was not legal. Umm, some people could get access down there if you asked in advance. So psychics would go down there, investigators would go down there. One psychic said that they actually felt overwhelming hunger and sickness and being pulled.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Ugh.
Em Schulz: And then she actually felt someone grab her leg, like a little kid. And she ended up...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: I guess seeing the little kid or sensing the little kid, umm, who was such an intense energy. She couldn't even go into one of the rooms at first. And when she finally did...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: The spirit of the kid said her name was Annie and she lost her doll.
Christine Schiefer: I... That's terrifying and also very sad, [1:09:17.4] ____.
Em Schulz: So then the psychic... So then the psychic came back later to the same spot with a new doll for her.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: And brought her some peace. And ever since then, any visitors will try to leave offerings for Annie. So she always has a doll with her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, that's really sweet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Get ready for the word du jour to be a fucking fist fight, because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, whoa.
Em Schulz: In 2019, someone thought it'd be funny to steal Annie, the little...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: The doll. The doll.
Christine Schiefer: Why would you do that?
Em Schulz: Umm, they sold Annie's doll and it has never come back.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And to this day, staff still even say, publicly, online, wherever they can, whoever has the doll, please bring it back. Annie really, really misses it.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh.
Em Schulz: And they even say, "If you bring it to us, you won't even be punished. No questions asked. We just want her backs for Annie." And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. If you're hearing this and you know, who did it, just say, oh, just go in and say, "I found this. I didn't do it," you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I just found this random thing.
Christine Schiefer: [1:10:18.1] ____ again.
Em Schulz: And honestly, I'd like to imagine that, maybe Annie just loved it so much that the thing happened where it magically disappeared from our cosmos and she has it...
Christine Schiefer: Aww, maybe. Let's go with that.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if she just took her own fucking doll and then heard...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say...
Em Schulz: So much kerfuffle about it, she gave it back?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was gonna say she sees people like, making public statements and she just sits there like...
Em Schulz: She's like, oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: "They'll never know."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, in Mary King's Close, uh, people have also seen orbs on film. They've also gotten full figure apparitions on camera. In 2005, there was, uh, one of the professors of Edinburgh University, uh, she came to do an experiment, ironically, on the supernatural. And while she was down there, she was getting frustrated that she couldn't do the experiment, because she kept hearing footsteps and the sounds of rustling clothing. And she thought it was other people nearby, but it was the supernatural.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. It was the supernatural.
Em Schulz: It was the supernatural. She said, "From a professional point of view, I was annoyed because I thought it was someone intruding on our experiment." LOL. It was the ghost babe. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: And they were like, we are the experiment. Hello.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, we're right here. We're giving you everything you want. I'm the star! [laughter] Uh, people will see a large imposing figure in this area and many investigators have gotten EVPs. Some personal favorites are when the investigators asked, "Are you sick of seeing us yet?" And a voice said, "Yes, I am."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like, oh, sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to tell you. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And, and then another one, someone said, "Would you like us to leave now?" And then the voice said, "Just get out." Which...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: I like that... I like to think just get out was said with like, like a really slow cigarette pull, it's like, just get out. [chuckle] Just go.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, finally, a question I can answer. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Umm, others have claimed to see the ghost of Major Thomas Weir. I am confused if Major is his name or his title. Umm... [laughter] But...
Christine Schiefer: I'm assuming title, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: I am too. But then he starts being referred to as major and I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Then maybe not.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Remember that time that someone was named Welcome in one of your bullshit stories?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I do. [laughter] And then I googled what does the name Welcome mean? And Babycenter.com said the name Welcome means welcome. And I was like, thank you so much. This is extremely helpful information.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So glad I ran in a circle for however long I did.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, Thomas Weir, weird. Weird. Sorry, that's...
Em Schulz: Weir, without the D.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm...
Em Schulz: Major Thomas Weir.
Christine Schiefer: So Major Weir is his name. Like, yeah, so that's his title. That's his rank.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, whoa. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. Because by the way, as a kid, you know, the kids would call him Major Weirdo, like, obviously.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Major Weirdo. [laughter] Oh, you are such a bully today.
Em Schulz: Or and if it weren't... If it weren't the kids in middle school, now that I know, it's his rank, you know someone in the military hates him and calls him Major Weirdo.
Christine Schiefer: Major Weirdo.
Em Schulz: Umm, others have claimed to see the ghost of Major Thomas Weir, who was known to carry a staff with him wherever he went. Yikes. But I guess, he also does that...
Christine Schiefer: Weirdo.
Em Schulz: As a... [laughter] So he was a respected member of his church. By the way, we're ending on this story and I just want you to know, like, I saved this for last, because talk about a fuckin' crazy ride... It's, I mean, truly Major Weirdo. So, he...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I'm excited.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: He was a respected member of his church. I'm only giving you backstory. The point is, people see his apparition, but just so we all know who he was, here we go. He was a respected member of his church until one day, during prayer, he announced to the clergy, voluntarily, that he was working with the Devil.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Hello!
Em Schulz: He could've just... He could just not fucking said that and be fine, but...
Christine Schiefer: Like, put that in your LinkedIn. Don't take that to church with you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Put it in your Zynga and nowhere else. Like, what are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Nowhere else.
Em Schulz: Put it in your Away message so people can like question it at least.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, put it in a like more vague... You know, it's not even... You just like took all the mystery out of it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also like, if you... You had, you had a good situation, you were a... You had a high rank. You were a respected member of your community...
Christine Schiefer: And a cool nickname.
Em Schulz: And then one day, he woke up and he said, "Never fucking mind." So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Tells the church he's working with the devil, and then he goes, "Oh, oh, oh, that's not all," and then he goes... He accuses himself of bestiality. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. What?
Em Schulz: In-incest with his unmarried sister. I love how unmarried is the crime there. Okay?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Don't worry though. She's not married, so... "
Em Schulz: "Don't worry, I didn't, I didn't disrespect another man. I just... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: "Slept with my sister."
Christine Schiefer: That's horrifying.
Em Schulz: Umm, and he also admitted to learning witchcraft sorcery from his mother. So he really just hit all the buzzwords, and...
Christine Schiefer: This is getting weird.
Em Schulz: It's almost like, he knew he was about to get caught on something not that bad, like, maybe he like... There was a cheating scandal, and he was like, let me just put all these other ones in front of people, so the truth doesn't...
Christine Schiefer: While, while we're admitting things...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It was almost like... It was like a weird defense where his defense was offense, and he was like, "Here's all these terrible things about me for you to focus on so you don't pay attention to the other thing that's the truth.
Christine Schiefer: That tiny little thing I did. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so okay, so he says, I'm working with the devil. I'm into bestiality. I bang my sister, and my mom is a witch. Then he says...
Christine Schiefer: That sounds like the Monty Python like, [laughter] your dad, whatever the fuck thing.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Then, then people tried to... I love how like, that was all way too much for people to process, and so they didn't even know what to do and they're trying to save him from himself. They were literally like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: They were like, "Buddy, like, you just say out loud you're... "
Christine Schiefer: Try and sit back down.
Em Schulz: Just say you're mentally ill, so that way none of these confessions we can work with. Like, just say some things up and we can ignore all of it. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Just say you caught that hallucinating il... Disease from that guy who saw the heads...
Em Schulz: Right. Like...
Christine Schiefer: And we'll understand.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just say you breathed in too much poop air. It's okay. Just say it.
Christine Schiefer: We've, we've all been there.
Em Schulz: We've all done it, we've all done it.
Christine Schiefer: It's okay.
Em Schulz: Also like, umm like, this is around a time period when like, they were torturing women to admit that they were witches.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And then killing them on sight for anything... For a birth mark. This man stands up and says, "I am into witchcraft and so much worse."
Christine Schiefer: Like, for, for... Why?
Em Schulz: And then they're like, "Buddy, calm down. That can't be real. It's not real. It's not real."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, "We know you better than that, silly goose."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's literally like, "You don't have a woman's illness, God forbid."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, just to remind you that throughout history, men get away with everything.
Christine Schiefer: [1:16:58.7] ____.
Em Schulz: Umm, he said, I wanna sleep with dogs and my family and they went...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "That's okay, buddy. That's okay."
Christine Schiefer: What a silly, silly goose. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just too much poop air, too much poop air. It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: It happens.
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway. Then you think, oh man, that's the season finale material we were looking for. Guess, again, because his sister corroborates the story.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And claims that she... Not even like, oh, he's like, assaulting me. He said... She says, no, no, no. We're we're into it. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no!
Em Schulz: And I have a witch mark on my forehead, probably like a wrinkle or something, 'cause she's probably 21 and not married. Oh, yeah, she's unmarried, [laughter] remember, that's the problem. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Shes got one wrinkle on her forehead. Sick!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And then, and then both of them together insisted... I mean, this has to be a mental illness. They then both insisted on being tried and executed. Like, they said...
Christine Schiefer: Hello?
Em Schulz: Literally, that morning, they woke up, everyone loved them, and then by nightfall they were begging people to kill them.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Then, in the end, the courts didn't wanna charge them with witchcraft. Oh, the irony.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then ended up... It was like, we'll, we'll find you guilty for other things, but not witchcraft. So they were relinquished of the witchcraft crime, but they were found guilty of bestiality and that was enough to have them hanged and their remains burned, which like...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Which like, I appreciate that they had that kind of guilt, I guess, but like, like, you could have also never said anything and gotten away with it. So like, I wanna know what the thought process was there.
Christine Schiefer: This is so weird.
Em Schulz: At the scaffold for her execution, the sister, I guess, in a blaze of glory, she was like, this is my last time to really like, make a statement. At her execution, she says, uh, executioner, uno memento, and then takes all of her clothes off in front of the crowd.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: Umm, just to be re-remember... Remembered. I don't know. I don't know what... It all feels really... Very unstable.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Something was off, for sure, like...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is going on here?
Em Schulz: And then on the way to his execution, umm, the Major Weirdo, he was marched through Mary King's Close and they think some of his energy is still lingering around there, so if you ever feel anything fucking chaotic, just know that might be him.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Just don't look up. Just keep walking, 'cause I don't wanna talk, I don't wanna talk though.
Em Schulz: Don't look up. You might see his head or... I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what the deal is there. So...
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna know.
Em Schulz: I don't wanna... I'm freaked out, I really don't. Umm, anyway, so he's probably the the wildest energy you're gonna pick up in Mary King's Close, but visitors...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'll say.
Em Schulz: Visitors in general can take tours of the close today, and many people have said just like with that psychic, but they feel very cold out of nowhere, they're overcome with emotions, they feel sick. They get really, really hungry. They see apparitions walking around, going through the walls and down the halls, they get grabbed, they hear voices. And before you do go on a tour, even if it's not like a spooky haunted tour, umm, the tour guides like, make a public statement that like, don't even think about checking out these narrow pathways if you're claustrophobic, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay, yeah, good to know.
Em Schulz: Or afraid of the dark, 'cause it's... It gets dark really quick when there's no sunlight, 'cause of all the buildings, so.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that is Mary King's Close.
Christine Schiefer: Geez. That was a fucking journey, dude.
Em Schulz: I know. I really talked forever. I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, no, I mean, no, we, we... If... I don't know if only YouTubers can sense this, but we had a couple technical difficulties right in the middle, so it probably just feels long, but umm, no, it's great...
Em Schulz: It's very fun when people think that, uh, almost 400 episodes into this, we've got it figured out. Every, every day there's a tech issue, so...
Christine Schiefer: There's always something.
Em Schulz: Always.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, always. Okay, well, Em, I have a... It's finally time for you to understand why I am in the head space, that I...
Em Schulz: Should... Should we...
Christine Schiefer: Do it?
Em Schulz: Crack into it?
Christine Schiefer: Let's crack into the story of Dennis Rader.
[music]
Christine Schiefer: We're back. We, uh, we had some kerfuff... Some... It felt like the universe was trying to shut it down as, umm, we recorded this episode, so we took... We took a little break. Umm, so if you're on YouTube and you're like, why are they... Why did they do a costume change? Umm, we thought about just wearing...
Em Schulz: I have depression and I don't often change my clothes, so maybe I'm wearing the same thing, I don't remember...
Christine Schiefer: You're not...
Em Schulz: Anymore...
Christine Schiefer: You're not, I checked, but umm...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: I, I was wearing my Momster shirt and I was like, "Well, you know... "
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I could put it back on, I don't have any problems with wearing dirty clothes, but that just seems disingenuous, 'cause we did take a little break and while we were taking said break, I, umm, felt really uh, like, making my own life difficult. And decided to keep watching, umm, more information about the topic I'm covering today. Umm...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so now I'm coming back to Em with a revised... You know, remember when they would sell textbook... So Em earlier said [1:22:19.1] ____, and I said...
Em Schulz: Oh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I said...
Em Schulz: This is like, your seventh edition.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Yeah, where they change the edition just to make you pay $140 for it, even though like, they changed the color of the font or something. Umm, this is...
Em Schulz: Right, right, right. They changed the, the history textbook with the White man in an Egyptian outfit to a...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right. Like, it's not gonna... Yeah, never had... Ever changed.
Em Schulz: A White man in a, a different racist outfit, like, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they took... They've changed the number of buttons on George Washington's petticoat. Well, [laughter] that's kind of what I did here today. I'm here with all sorts of petticoats. Em has heard part of the story, and Eva said we could throw her under the bus, so I'm gonna do exactly that.
Em Schulz: Oh, sure, ugh...
Christine Schiefer: Apparently, she...
Em Schulz: Now I gotta get the list, hang on...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, Em, that... Not that part...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: That is a whole separate episode.
Em Schulz: Eva cut that out. You didn't hear about it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Eva cut that out. Uh, no, Eva apparently is like, new, new day, new her, and got like, a treadmill that she walks on at the desk. And then also bought an Apple watch on eBay, and then also decided to learn what Siri does and is. Umm, and I guess, tried to... [laughter] While we were recording, tried to [laughter] text Rachel and like the whole call just like... Her computer just like, shut down. Umm.
Em Schulz: Interfered with our episode. The whole thing shut down. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So, so anyway, all that to say, it's a, it's a combination of all our faults really, probably not Em's, but maybe mine...
Em Schulz: But mainly Eva's so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But mostly Eva's, no. Umm, so anyway.
Em Schulz: But yeah, so if you, if you are on YouTube, you'll notice that our intro and our... Are we on like... Do we do three different costume changes throughout this episode?
Christine Schiefer: No, we're not doing your story again.
Em Schulz: Oh, right, right. No, but in the intro, we're really talking about how much fun we're having. Like, why we drink.
Christine Schiefer: No, we already did that, all that.
Em Schulz: Right. But aren't we gonna be in different clothes than that right now?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But also...
Em Schulz: And then, and then next week, this is a part two, surprise everybody, Em will be in different clothes.
Christine Schiefer: No, this is part one.
Em Schulz: Right. And then next week will be part two.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but part two, we record on a different day.
Em Schulz: Oh right, shit. For a second, I thought we were just like like, [laughter] spinning around backstage and doing a bunch of changes, bunch of changes, bunch of changes.
Christine Schiefer: Am I... What is happening? Okay, basically, this episode [laughter] is for...
Em Schulz: I forget, what's a podcast? Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: Em! Thank God, no one's listening to this right now. Umm. Anyway, yeah, okay, I'm just gonna tell the story and Em...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Em already knows the story, 'cause I started it la... When we recorded this a couple of days ago and we're gonna start it over again. I'm covering BTK. Okay?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: BTK, Dennis Rader, ever heard of him? He's a fucking terror and he lives in my brain, and I'm so ready to get him out of there, so ready. I'm so ready.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Can we all give, umm, everywhere, where everyone is, umm raise your drinks and let's give Christine, like, a little sip across the globe, because umm...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: She has had one of the worst criminals in her mind for, I don't know, two weeks, three weeks now?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What the fuck? No months now, it's been... I swear to God, I went back. It's been probably like two months, maybe six weeks that I've been working on this and umm, it all began... Let me blame someone else. It all began when I first listened to the Creeps and Crimes three-parter that Taylor did on, uh, BTK, and I was like, wow, this is like, so hard hitting and so well done, and she was so fucked up by the story, that I listened to it, and then I got fucked up by the story, and then I was like, "Well, now I have to cover it." So I wait a few months, like, did research, now I'm covering it and I'm like, I know how she feels, he lives in your brain. It's terrible. Umm, and so, now that I'm redoing this again, it's time to get him out, let's fucking get him out.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yep, yep. And by that, I mean, I'm just putting it into all your brains, and I'm so sorry, but, umm...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: If you, if you happen to also be a true crime podcaster and you wanna report on him...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, oh my God.
Em Schulz: You can... It's just, it's just a chain of trauma between...
Christine Schiefer: It's a chain email, if you send this to seven people...
Em Schulz: Yay!
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: The girl from The Ring won't come out of your TV. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh, well... But we do, we we show up in your TV sometimes, if you're watching us on YouTube.
Christine Schiefer: And, and many costume changes, you'll never know. Umm, okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You're like such an idiot. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry, everybody. Alright, this is a really long, umm, intro into my half of the episode, and I do apologize. Okay, so let's just get into it. Alright, Em, let me tell you about BTK. Uh, I'm gonna tell myself that you forgot most of this already...
Em Schulz: I did, and, and you did say that since we've recorded last time, you've done even more research, so there is information that I just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a lot more new stuff. Yeah, mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So, I'm... This is actually pretty much a new...
Christine Schiefer: It's pretty...
Em Schulz: Episode to me. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Pretty brand new to you. Okay, great. So, the BTK killer, as he is known, otherwise known as Dennis Rader, was a prolific serial killer, who was active from the 1970s, umm, which was the Golden Age, as terrible as a phrase as that is, of serial killers...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, into the '90s, and it was, uh, Dennis Rader himself who suggested his own title, which is just as loser-ish as you can imagine. [chuckle] Umm, it of course, did for his notorious method of murder, you did pass this test last time, but... Can you tell the people what BTK stands for?
Em Schulz: Yes, and I, I, I'm glad I took a beat with myself because I almost said it really excitedly, since I've passed the test and, and...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. Wrong tone, right.
Em Schulz: Now I'm gonna bring it back down. Bring it back down, umm, BTK stands for bind, torture and kill.
Christine Schiefer: That's correct. And, umm, fucking terrible, we'll get into why, but I think you can all guess. Umm, so this guy, Dennis Rader, he desperately wanted recognition, he idolized other serial killers like, Ted Bundy. He really wanted attention, and that would ultimately be his downfall, which I feel like, we've seen with other narcissistic serial killers in the past. Umm, and he took such pride in what he did, all the fucked up things he did. And he liked his own title, that he gave himself so much that we are going to call him, Dennis Rader today, because Dennis is probably...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Is like the least assuming... It's like the most...
Em Schulz: Well, you made a...
Christine Schiefer: Like, like average name.
Em Schulz: You made a really good point... You made a really good point, umm, the first time we recorded this, which nobody else got to hear, but... Umm, and I know you just said it quickly, but last time you kinda lingered on it, and I think it's important to mention that you know, so many people that we cover, one of the reasons that they do it, or one of the side benefits to them is that they get this notoriety of...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You know, this is what I did to them or they're my victims, not they're survivors of what bullshit I pulled out.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And all he... I mean, he literally named himself because he wanted to be known. And so, one of the reasons you said last time that we're gonna be calling him Dennis is just our own extra version of, fuck you, we're not gonna tell you...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, no.
Em Schulz: The, the, whatever weird super villain name you created for yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like, I don't want you jacking off to your own nickname, you fucking pervert.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So we're gonna call him Dennis, you know what? Just a normal guy from Kansas, Dennis. Umm, and Dennis was born, March 9th, 1945. And this part is probably one of the wildest, even though it sounds innocuous statements in this whole set of notes, is that, he had such a normal childhood.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: That it just does, does not seem conceivable why he turned into what he turned into.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So, that's not a normal thing with these guys, right? Like, there's usually some trauma, some abuse.
Em Schulz: No head injury of... Anything.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, head injury, you know? And he's claimed that he had head injuries, and I kinda looked into that a little bit and he claimed, oh, I was dropped on the head, umm, as a baby, and it was such a severe blow to my head that I turned blue. But like, nobody can really for sure say, if that's true, A, and B, if that would have turned him into this kind of monster. So...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Beyond that, his, his family, they were just a regular old church-going, uh, Wichita family, active in the community. Umm, uh, one of Dennis' friends from childhood remembered him being, like, somewhat competitive, umm, and could even be you know, kind of a bully, like a sore loser. But I'm like, I know many kids, including myself, who probably behave that way, and you know, it wasn't a red flag enough to [chuckle] turn, turn my parents into you know, to put them on high alert.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: It wa... He's just a normal bratty kid. So inside, unfortunately, during this time, which nobody of course knew, he was harboring quite a few dark fantasies, and this all started when he was in grade school.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, he and his friends would play, umm, cops and robbers or like, the even less PC version, cowboys, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they would tie each other up in barns, and that is kind of when he first realized that the act of being tied up, but more so the act of someone else being tied up and restrained was very arousing to him. And I don't know that he knew what arousal was, but it gave him, you know, a funny feeling. So... And that...
Em Schulz: Umm, there was... Oh, go ahead. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No, sorry, now I'm just on my like fucking train to nowhere, umm... Please hit the emergency brake.
Em Schulz: I know, but for the sake of banter, let me... [laughter] I, I pulled it and it's, it's broken off, and the car's like going 60 miles an hour.
Christine Schiefer: You're like oops! [laughter] hey, it's like me on the highway.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Aww, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, too soon.
Em Schulz: Umm, I was just, for the sake of banter, going to be willing to embarrass myself if you were interested.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh my God, I would love nothing more.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, so when we were... When I was younger, like a little kid, umm, we had... My mom's house still has a basement and they have like these, umm, load-bearing poles down there.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And my friends and I also used to tie each other up on the pole, [laughter] and I don't know what that was about, but I also was really into it, and like, not...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: And I, I don't know why because that has, for the record, I don't know if anyone's caught on to my ways, but it has not translated to like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Adult me, but umm, something as a kid, I, I don't know what it was, but I remember we used to tie each other...
Christine Schiefer: To Em's like, statement, like I don't know if you all have caught on, but I'm really not... Not into BDSM in my relationship...
Em Schulz: Just in case... [laughter] Just I know someone's got a side comment about being tied up and like, I have...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Since we're there, let me just say, I have made a, a hard line that I'm not interested in being tied up... It's this... Like, here's a main reason like, as an adult.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: I'm afraid someone's gonna touch my armpits. I'm like, I'm like, what if I get tickled?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: I can't tolerate. I don't even wanna know about it. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I am sorry that I'm taking my clothes off, but it's so hot...
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Here comes...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry, I was wearing...
Em Schulz: Christine's shoulders are out!
Christine Schiefer: No, I thought I was wearing a t-shirt. I'm sorry, hold on, let me put on this... This is like, so out...
Em Schulz: Not while I'm in the middle was talking about like, my awakening...
Christine Schiefer: Why am I doing that? I'm just so sweaty. It's not an [1:33:26.5] ____.
Em Schulz: You wish we were tying each other up to a pole, Christine, I think.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh God!
Em Schulz: No, we would... Okay, here's the weird thing though. As a little kid, we... I had like a tea set, like, I feel like a lot of us had tea sets...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, in hindsight, this is so foul, like bacteria-wise, because like, I don't remember, ever washing them ever, but I... We used to... I had a place, a tea set down there, we had this like, game of chase and whoever lost had to get tied to the pole. And then, and then, we would force feed each other Sprite in the tea set. [laughter] And I don't know what... I don't know how that came about. I don't know why it lasted for years. That was a big game we played. Umm, and I also now in hindsight, I'm like, wow, just think of how many years of old sticky Sprite was at the bottom of that, [laughter] and we just kept drinking new Sprite out of it.
Christine Schiefer: At least it was all chemically... You know, it's just like that fucking sugar...
Em Schulz: It was probably not [1:34:26.3] ____.
Christine Schiefer: It just eats away the porcelain or whatever.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It was... Yeah. The... You mean the what, grade one plastic, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that was... The made in China, little tykes plastic. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I remember like, one of my friends at the time, I had a crush on her. And so, I would like, want to play this game a lot more with her, I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: I wanna be forced fed Sprite, I don't know what my problem was, but, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Well, Allison, maybe that's something to try. [laughter] You know? Like, get some Sprite. Maybe that'll spark a new interest, you know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Allison, force feed me Sprite.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, I mean, I'm just saying.
Em Schulz: Okay but, but as an adult now I'm like, oh, but like, if I can't drink my own Sprite...
Christine Schiefer: The germs...
Em Schulz: Like, it's so, it's so sticky, it's like, ugh. Like, sensory overload. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Anyway, mom, if you're listening, that's what we did downstairs. So...
Christine Schiefer: Well, okay, can I tell you a secret that I've literally not told anybody...
Em Schulz: Let's do it!
Christine Schiefer: Ever, and umm, I'm putting my sweatshirt back on, because the cord of the headphones...
Em Schulz: 'Cause of the shame?
Christine Schiefer: No, well that too, but the cord of the headphones is through the hoodie, so it does not...
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. Like...
Em Schulz: You just literally undressed for me to talk about a sexual fantasy...
Christine Schiefer: I know...
Em Schulz: And then put your clothes back on.
Christine Schiefer: And you literally said, I wanted to be tied up and then I just whipped my shirt off, [laughter] like, what is wrong with me? I didn't do it intentionally.
Em Schulz: And then I said, story's over and you put your shirt back on. That was...
Christine Schiefer: I know... [laughter] So sorry, this is like, sickening the way I'm behaving today.
Em Schulz: That was such a tease. Wait a minute.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. Okay, let me put my Ruth Bader Ginsburg shirt back on. [laughter] Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Go ahead.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Here's the thing, umm, we played a game where we would have... Okay, this is so embarrassing. I'm sweating so much and I'm still friends with one of these people. [laughter] So I hope she doesn't hear this.
Em Schulz: I can't wait to hear it.
Christine Schiefer: Well, we played this game in our friend's basement, where we would pretend to be like, the mailman, and then the other person would invite us in for tea, and then we would drink tea out of the tea set. This seems to be like a weird parallel and then...
Em Schulz: But would the mailman force feed the tea? I... Like, we're...
Christine Schiefer: No, but then, they would fall in love, and then...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: We didn't know what it was, but we would go lay down in bed and then the other person would come home from work [laughter] and say, honey, I'm home. And finds...
Em Schulz: What is that, telenovela? What are you talking about?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Find the other two with the tea set scattered about. Uh, and we played this weird like, uh, interesting...
Em Schulz: Adultery games?
Christine Schiefer: Interest... [chuckle] Adultery fantasy game...
Em Schulz: Interesting, 'cause if you were drinking tea with anyone else, I would also consider that cheating. So your umm, your [laughter] role play has come to life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well, a few of us turned out pretty gay, so I'm like, maybe that was what's happening. Umm, you know, the people in that group that I recall, several... You know, several... I wonder if that was part of it. I don't know. I'm just saying, maybe that was like a, a gay thing that kids did.
Em Schulz: There was... There was another game, I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: Eva, did you play tea set and tie, tie you up into the pole? [laughter] Or that is that just like a fucked up divorced kid thing?
Em Schulz: I think that's an HR problem. [laughter] I think maybe we shouldn't ask Eva...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Never mind. Don't answer that. You're completely right. You're com... Em, you are 100% right. I'm crossing every line today stop. Eva, do not answer that.
Em Schulz: Eva, did you ever have a role play fantasy?
Christine Schiefer: Did you ever tie up children? What the fuck? [laughter] Stop it, Christine. You can't ask that question. I feel like I've lost my damn mind today. [laughter] I feel like I've really lost it, like, should we wait another few days to record this, Em? [laughter] I don't think I can talk about this anymore.
Em Schulz: Okay, uh, shifting gears. I... Like, there was another game. Umm, I don't remember what it was called, but it was something... It was, it was with the same girl that would tie me up and force feed me Sprite.
Christine Schiefer: See? Well, you should check what she's up to today, 'cause I can almost guarantee I know...
Em Schulz: Well, she's still one of my best friends and she's like as straight as an arrow, and I'm like, that doesn't make sense. Like, that...
Christine Schiefer: Are you sure?
Em Schulz: Like, you were doing some really gay shit. So like...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe she was just getting it out of her system.
Em Schulz: Uh, maybe. If only it were that easy for me. Umm, but...
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? [laughter] That's a thing parents say, right, like they're just... It's a phase. It was just a phase.
Em Schulz: It's a phase. I remember we also... Okay. Well, I can't even get into that. Umm. We uh... There was, there was a game we would play... It, it was like also... Well, it was also kind of my favorite game, because... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: We would sit on each other's laps and like, try to flirt with each other, and like... [laughter] Literally, just trying to flirt...
Christine Schiefer: Now we're one-upping each other's stories. Did all kids do this? Do all kids do weird fucked up stuff like this? I think maybe it's normal, I don't know.
Em Schulz: We were like, 10 and like, the whole thing was like, you had to ask a certain question or something. I don't remember it was. It was... Umm, I don't remember the question, but you would like sit on each other's laps in a circle and you would try to make the... You tried to flirt until the other one got uncomfortable and then you won. It was like, super weird. But the joke was, uh she didn't know I had a crush on her and her flirting was... I definitely was very comfortable with it. So, umm, I won.
Christine Schiefer: Oh you were like, sorry, I'm never gonna lose, baby.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So I won, but umm, yeah, it was... I... It was just such a weird game. I don't know why... I don't know where that came from, but...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm sorry. I hate to say, I do have an update.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Eva said, I did let my sister and friend lock me in a dog cage part of the car.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh man, okay. You know what, I'm glad you voluntarily gave us some information, Eva, 'cause I was... I was a little curious, but umm...
Christine Schiefer: Please for the record, I did not elicit this information forcefully.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Everything's alleged, I don't know. Okay, so anyway, so far, we played fucked up games, so far we're very similar to BTK, I don't like that. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I know and that's... Okay. And I know, maybe it come... Comes off as, umm, like, in poor taste to discuss and laugh about that, as, as we're talking about the story, but it really does go to show, and I feel like this is definitely a pattern of this whole episode, is that... Which we briefly discussed last time when Siri shut us down, umm, that people like to de-humanize him in a lot of instances. I have listened to you know, podcasts or or documentaries, people have like an inclination, which is totally understandable, but an inclination to turn him into like this inhuman monster creature that we could never relate to, that we could never understand. And umm, one of the documentaries that I watched, or docuseries, I guess, uh, the woman who is a... She's like a, a forensic profiler, I believe forensic psychologist, and she interviews Dennis Rader and she's gotten a lot of flack for this, because you know, like we said, all he wants is to get his own story out there and he loves to be heard.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so, it is a little bit like iffy, that he's narrating basically this whole docuseries, but she makes a very, you know, umm, good point to say, "The reason I do this is because I want to go back and see what this person, who's done these atrocious things, was like as a kid, so maybe over time... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "We can start to recognize these signs, we can, we can act before things get so out of hand and so many people are killed and hurt." And you know, it's interesting because clearly we do have similarities, as I think most people would hope they have zero similarities with Dennis Rader, but you know, that's part of why it's so scary, is that this is a person you can relate to. This is a person who did similar childhood things as us. This is a person who, uh, could be your dad, your neighbor, your... Uh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, accountant. Whatever.
Em Schulz: No, it's, it's like, the the worst part of true crime is that even the biggest monster in some way is human. Like, they're...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, unfortunately, right? Like, yeah, exactly. We don't...
Em Schulz: Like, you don't wanna relate to them, but even if it's something as small as like, you both have the same favorite ice cream flavor, like, there is a human part...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: To each of these people, which maybe... I think it's uncomfortable, because we so desperately don't want to have any...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Any way to relate to a person like this, and yet these people do have families, there are people who are collateral damage and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Them doing these kind of, these awful atrocities, it's... There's people on the other side who you do and empathize for that happened to know him, you know? And so...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. And who, who didn't realize... And you've made this point bef... In previous episodes too, that like, you'd like to think that you'd be able to spot somebody from a mile away, somebody...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So sick in the head, somebody who did such terrible things, but people like this are so good at compartmentalizing, at separating their you know, day-to-day, face-to-face version of themselves, or even at home with family that, that you... His own family never knew what he was doing...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Behind the scenes and how extreme it was, so... Yeah, I just feel like, when we see... When we joke about, oh, ha-ha, we did stuff like that too. It's like, well, you know, a lot of kids probably do, it's probably pretty normal. It's just that he recalls it in such a different light, saying like, that is when I realized, you know, this was a fetish. And guess what? A lot of people have fetishes, a lot of people have exactly this fetish, of being tied up, and it doesn't turn into what it does in this story. So you know...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: There's just so many elements of like, this is a normal guy until it's not, until he takes it so far that we can't relate.
Em Schulz: Right. Like, there's a... I think what I find fascinating in that type of, I guess, research that she's doing, is where does the nuance become criminal or like, where it... Because...
Christine Schiefer: Like, where is the red flag almost...
Em Schulz: Because like you said, a lot of people tie each other up as kids and realize that they've got a thing there, and that... And that's not criminal for anybody else, so like what...
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: Where was the line or what was it in his...
Christine Schiefer: What was like, the too far? What was the line where it set... It should set off alarm bells? You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What's the sign where it's like, oh, this is not just normal kids play?
Em Schulz: And I mean, we, we probably will never know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We probably will never know. Umm, so that's just kind of a insight into where this began for him, but of course, as we know, it just uh, progressed and progressed and got a lot worse, umm but otherwise, he had a pretty "normal," for you know, the... As far as serial killers are concerned, a relatively normal childhood. Umm, there is another formative moment that he does recall, and I think this one is probably a little more unique and a little more, umm, telling, but at one point, he explains that his mother's ring... So she was vacuuming under the couch and her ring got caught on a spring underneath that couch, and she was stuck and she kind of panicked, 'cause she couldn't undo... She couldn't reach her hand with her other hand. And so, she shouted at him, "Go get help," and Dennis saw her face on this person who, his mother, who was usually in charge, who usually uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, is his superior, is now trapped and needs his help, and that cemented this response in his mind, he froze, he felt feelings of arousal, he said, he realized that her being you know, trapped and struggling, was really attractive to him, really sexually arousing, and this terror and con...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Her terror and his control was really intoxicating, and he did ultimately break from this trance and ran to his grandma's house next door to get help, but that kind of stuck in his mind. And as an example, of some more, uh, what he basically took these feelings and turned them into action items, umm.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He had in fifth grade of beef, a beef...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Not a... Not beef, a beef, with a fifth grade teacher. And, uh, he said, you know, she just had this complex and she liked to push me around. So he [chuckle] went to her house, this is in fifth grade, and began watching her through the windows.
Em Schulz: Oh my.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And this for a little bit was enough, but eventually, he needed more. Umm, so one day he brought a rope with him and he tied himself up to the trellis, as he watched her, and that was the first time he ever came to completion. Uh...
Em Schulz: Understood.
Christine Schiefer: And that is... Oh by the way, I, I, I need to mention this now because I wanna get it out of the way and never discuss it again. Umm, he called his, his, umm, completion... He called it sparky big time.
Em Schulz: Of all the things you could call it, [chuckle] that's not the most clever. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: It's just fucking gross and stupid, because like, get over yourself. Like, he did this through his whole... I'm not talking fifth grade, by the way, people... I'm talking like, as a grown ass adult, he would talk about it...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And call it sparky big time. And it's like, get it together, fucking guy.
Em Schulz: Like, I am not usual... I'm not... I'm... Uh, I don't understand people naming things, but if you're gonna do it, it better be fucking worth it, and like that, that's...
Christine Schiefer: It's not right? It's not even...
Em Schulz: It's not even a little good, that's...
Christine Schiefer: Like, what are we supposed to do? Be like, good one. You know, what's the...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Like, here I go, fake knee slapping. Like, that is just that's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Har, har. It's just gross.
Em Schulz: Gross.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So people thought of Dennis... They didn't obviously know these things about him or I imagine these are the massive red flags we would have looked out for, but people...
Em Schulz: Right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I answered that question that, that FBI psychologist was asking...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But people, typically, what's too far... Umm, tying yourself to your teacher's trellis to ejaculate on the floor. Yeah, that's probably too far.
Em Schulz: Actually, yeah, very quickly, we figured out that something had already not clicked right around there.
Christine Schiefer: It like, went from zero to 60. Yeah. Exactly. So, people typically thought of Dennis as just, like, an average kid, and that ended up being almost his super power, because people really couldn't imagine that he... This kind of hum drum guy, could be something so monstrous behind the scenes. So, he lived in Wichita or the Wichita area, at least, for his whole life, except for four years, uh, 1966 to '70, when he served in the Air Force. And after he came home from the Air po... Air Force, he quickly found the woman he was going to marry, her name was Paula, and they met at church. They were actually, by all accounts, pretty happy together, at least, you know, for a couple in that time period.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Who maybe didn't know all the secrets of the other partner, uh, but they seemed pretty happy. You know? He treated her "well," and he, to this day claims, "I was a good father and a good spouse," and like, he fails to see that treating someone well, and then doing all these other things outside the home doesn't make you... Like, you're still a shitty father, because now you're putting your children through...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: What you did outside... Like, it doesn't...
Em Schulz: He's not extrapolating his...
Christine Schiefer: Yes! Yeah.
Em Schulz: What his... Like the, the cause and effect of his actions.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He can't... He just doesn't see that. He like, considers them completely separate. And so...
Em Schulz: He's like, well, I made our Dino chicken nuggets so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. So how bad could I be? And it's like, you fucker, very bad, and your family does not like you anymore because of that, you know? And he just can't understand it. So, in any case, Paula and Dennis seemed pretty happy together. Dennis continued to live a pretty quiet, typical midwestern life. Umm, it seemed pretty damn normal to his friends and family, but of course, as we know now, Dennis was really living an insidious double life that not even his own wife, Paula suspected. So early in their marriage, he was already breaking into and entering people's houses, and the catalyst for that was getting laid off from his dream job. He got a job at Cessna, uh, the, the airplane company, and he...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Loved it, but after only a short while, he was laid off and he's not sure why to this day. But for some reason, he uses that as sort of an excuse or a reason as to why he started breaking into people's houses, like, out of anger and frustration, he took it out on women, uh, who...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Who had nothing to do with him losing his job. But for some reason, it gave him a thrill of power and control to invade someone else's space, steal from them, they wouldn't know he was there, he got off on that. But of course, that would not be enough after a certain amount of time. So, in January 1974, 28-year-old Dennis made the leap and boy was it a leap, from burglary to murder. One day while driving his wife, Paula to work, Dennis spotted, 34-year-old Julie Otero outside with one of her children. The Oteros were a family of seven, including parents, Joseph and Julie and their five children. And they had just moved to Wichita six months earlier. Joseph Otero, the father, was outgoing, friendly, fun-loving. Julie was known as a loving parent. She was described as a mother first and foremost, who prioritized and doted on her children. And looking at her, Dennis said, that's her, that's, that's my first victim.
Christine Schiefer: He was also, unfortunately, particularly interested in 11-year-old Josephine, their daughter. And he later explained that he was "attracted to Hispanic women with their dark skin, hair and eyes," and all the fucked-uppery aside, this is also a child, an 11-year-old, so, like, women...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Doesn't apply here. But, you know, all of that, just to give you an idea of, like, his own fucked up mind works. So he spent two months stalking Julie and getting to know her routine, and finally on January 15th, 1974, he made his move. Now, I'm gonna tell you his plan, because let's just say things did not go according to his original plan.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So his plan was to attack both Julie and Josephine, because he knew when they would be home. According to the jail house interviews used for the docuseries, I was referencing earlier, which is called BTK Confessions of a Serial Killer. And I wanna point out again, to take anything that comes out of his mouth with a grain of salt, because he loves to hear himself talk, he loves to create his own narrative. But according to his own words, his plan was to kidnap Julie, take her out to his family's barn, and basically set up a sort of torture shed, where he could do perverted horrible things to her and then ultimately hang her. This was his plan.
Em Schulz: Oh my god, Jesus. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. And in fact, he'd actually been working on something called his silo of terror.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, what the fuck?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I, I hate to do this to you, Em, but I'm gonna. I have a blueprint. A hand-drawn blueprint.
Em Schulz: Oh! Okay, I do wanna see it out of morbid curiosity, but I also have the chills at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Ugh, I know. It's, it's pretty horrific. Umm, here's one picture of it.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. Well, it's pretty fucking detailed.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Wow, that's a... That's a real whole layout. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's... He really thought of himself as some sort of fucking creative genius, like, biggest eye roll of all time accompanying that. Because like, he is proud of this shit and it's like, you... What are you proud of? This is so fucked up. Like, get a hobby.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Well, he did get a hobby.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so, get a better one.
Em Schulz: Get a different hobby. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. But basically, this silo of terror, he had these blueprints and he used colored pencil to color code them. Like, it's just fucking stupid. But this was his big plan. It never came to fruition, thank God. But he'd had this plan in his mind where he would create a silo of terror, and it had nooses and one of those medieval torture wheels inside of it, in his mind, not really. And the wildest part to me, which is something I hadn't realized about him is, he had this fantasy where he fantasized about women being strapped to a train track and getting run over by a train.
Em Schulz: Oh my... Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: And this was apparently part of the blueprint of his fucking silo.
Em Schulz: He was gonna...
Christine Schiefer: Put a train in there.
Em Schulz: So, the mountain of tasks it would take to get a train in there...
Christine Schiefer: Like, what are you talking?
Em Schulz: How, how do you stop the train fast enough that it doesn't crash into the other side of the house of the silo?
Christine Schiefer: Like, isn't a silo tall and thin... Like, is it, is it... I don't understand. Like, I don't understand...
Em Schulz: Like, is it just on a continuous track, like, around one of those Christmas villages and you just get people on there?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. In a circle? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I know like... The logistics are wild, but that's also...
Christine Schiefer: If you, if you zoom in...
Em Schulz: Which I doubt.
Christine Schiefer: Which I'd rec... Recommend you don't do, but I'm gonna make you do anyway, umm.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: If you zoom in, you can see the train up top to the right...
Em Schulz: Gasp! That's a train.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's a train.
Em Schulz: I was wondering what that was. I thought it was like a clock tower or something. But, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It does look like a clock tower, but it is a full ass train. Umm, and that was...
Em Schulz: The fact that he was trying to build a train station as a hobby is... For, for torture...
Christine Schiefer: Like, what are you talking... That's how, that's how highly he thought of himself. Right? He's like, I worked at Cessna for two minutes, I can build a train. Okay, sir.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm an engineer. Not only can I build the tracks, the foundation to put a train on and the train, and like, first of all... And also, how are you gonna get a train in there without, like, the town realizing there's a fucking train somewhere...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, hey, where did our train go? [laughter] It's like, eww.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I mean, like, the amount of questions I would have...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is actually, it could be its own podcast, but...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And to hear... That's what's so frustrating too is, like to hear him talk about it in this docuseries where he's so proud, and of course, it's sickening 'cause you're like, this fucking guy getting off on telling the story. But like, there's something about hearing him talk about it and you're like, wow, he's really fucking delusional enough to think...
Em Schulz: Fully.
Christine Schiefer: He can put a train inside a silo. Like, he fully is proud of this idea. He just thinks this is a fucking great idea. And, uh, umm...
Em Schulz: Like, was... Like, where was the silo gonna be, 'cause you know a neighbor would hear a train through the wall. Like...
Christine Schiefer: A train that moves 5 feet or 10 feet or however big and fucking...
Em Schulz: And also stops immediately, like... So that it doesn't crash into their other apartment. Like, it makes no fucking sense. He... Delusional is the perfect word. Perfect word.
Christine Schiefer: Delusional. And to this day thinks that it's such a great idea, which is like, wow, he really has not picked up on that.
Em Schulz: I like... I feel like, he... I don't have any reference to point at, but I, I like that, because he drew a blueprint of it, he thinks he's had everyone fooled. Like, all the other questions don't matter.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's like, well, I sketched it, so I don't know what you're confused about.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I used colored pencil to color code different levels of the silo.
Em Schulz: Yeah, the train looks like a clock tower, you saw it.
Christine Schiefer: So you saw it, right? We all saw it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, it's like he suddenly thinks he's some sort of fucking mastermind, and it's like, okay, guy. Umm, so anyway, we're back to January 15th, I tell you that to tell you this is what his "grand scheme" was for Julie.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is what he wanted to do.
Em Schulz: I think we were all safe from that plan, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: That plan was probably never gonna happen exactly. So January 15th, 1974, Dennis climbs over the back fence of the Otero's property, and he's wearing his Air Force parka. It's filled... The pockets are filled with bindings and various weapons. He is really nervous, because this, this is his first murder, his first kill. So he creeps through the backyard and he cuts the phone line, which has... Becomes part of his MO, that's when he notices dog prints and he had not planned for the family to have a dog. Umm, and he almost backed out at this point, which is like, gut-wrenching, because we were this close to not even having this whole occurrence happen, but he almost backed out, almost. Instead, when someone opened the back door to let the dog out, Dennis jumped into action and said, this is my moment.
Christine Schiefer: So he walked through the back door, and he caught Julie Otero by surprise as she made sandwiches in the kitchen, but it was not just Julie at home, there was also the youngest child, 9-year-old Joseph Jr or Joey, who was also there, in addition to Julie and Josephine, who he expected. And then in walks, Mr. Joseph Otero himself, the father of the family, who's supposed to be at work, according to BTK Dennis' plans. Apparently, Dennis had not done as much research as he thought he had, or he wasn't as good at it, shocker, as he thought he was, because it turns out Joseph Otero had actually broken a few ribs at work and he was at home recovering on a sort of worker's comp situation. And so, he suddenly instead of two people, a woman and a child, he's now confronted with four. Uh, so he's totally off his... Off his game already, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And Joseph Otero, of course, is completely startled. I wanna also remind everybody, this is occurring in the morning, this is like, 8:00 AM, so they're just... You know, the kids just left for school, the older kids just left for school, they're just having a normal morning, let the dog out, suddenly there's a man in their kitchen. And Joseph Otero thought at first this was a prank set up by his brother. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. What, what kind of pranks are his brother...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I, I, I was like, oh, I wonder... I don't wanna know what other pranks you guys have pulled on each other, but...
Em Schulz: Like, ha-ha stranger in my house, but I also understand, like, wanting to, like, rationalize what the fuck's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think, I think... Because I thought about that a lot. It must be shocked. It's like, how else do you...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Why else at 8:15 in the morning would some rando man, some white-bred looking dude just standing in your kitchen saying, I'm here to rob, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: He thought well, maybe my brother set up this fucked up prank, but of course, then Dennis shows him his gun, and Joseph realized immediately this was no prank. Dennis told the Oteros he meant them no harm, and he only needed money and a few provisions. So Joseph said, okay, okay, you can have whatever you wanted, you can even have our car, although there's no gas in it. And of course, this was all a total fabrication. Umm, Dennis planned to kill them from day one. He, he was never just planning to get food and money and leave. But Dennis got off on making people feel safe with him, when he knew full well, they were anything but safe with him.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he also got off on being able to subdue people, like this, sort of make them feel like at ease. Like, if you cooperate, everything will be fine, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So the family, of course, thinking they would be spared if they did cooperate, let Dennis tie them up with a rope, he had brought. He led them into the bedroom where Julie and Josie sat on the bed, and Joseph and Joey sat on the floor. And according to his rendition, at least, at one point, the bonds were uncomfortably tight, so he loosened them. Uh, he even gave Joseph a pillow to alleviate some of the pain in his ribs, because he was kinda laying uncomfortably. And he later explained to the judge, I'm not a bad guy, I care for people, I'm trying to comfort them as much as I could. I have concerns for people, and I hadn't really crossed that path yet where I was going to kill the people yet, so I was still in concern mode. I call bullshit, by the way.
Em Schulz: Oh. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I call fucking bullshit of course, immediately on all of that.
Em Schulz: Also, nothing says a narcissist more than like, oh, I went into concern mode. There's, there's no concern mode.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, what? That's not a thing. Right. Yeah, exactly. It's like a switch.
Em Schulz: Like, the fact that you think you have to enter a manual mode is crazy, like that's...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And that's something you just enter and exit on command.
Em Schulz: Wait. That's a very clear symptom of not having emotions.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Like, he just can't understand what anybody else means, because there were questions later, umm, about other crimes he committed where, where the, the forensic psychologist asks, you know, weren't you concerned about the kids? Not in this case, a different story.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he said, no, no, they were old enough to take care of themselves.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, what? That's not... No. You know, he just...
Em Schulz: Christine, you don't understand. He hadn't entered concern mode.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm so sorry we forgot to turn the switch. Right.
Em Schulz: You're so stupid, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so stupid. Right.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: So it's just like, really, uh, sinister and it gives you kind of an insight into how he thinks he's a good guy, even though he's about to do some of the most unspeakable acts that have fucking haunted me for months. So, once he has tied these people up and he's holding them at gunpoint, he claims... The realization dawned on him that, oh wait, they've seen my face, I'm not wearing a mask, so I have to kill all of them. They have to die. Otherwise, I'm, I'm screwed.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: My speculation, which again, is full speculation, but it's just how I feel after reading this eight million times, is that I think he... As soon as he walked in, saw them all, had the plan to kill them. I, I don't think he was gonna spare them. Umm, I don't think he would have done differently if he was wearing a mask. I think he's trying to make himself look "good" in his own fucked up way, by saying...
Em Schulz: Well, he went into concern mode for himself.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I have to kill them. Yes. Yeah, I'm sorry, it's just like, I had to kill them, because how else would I get away with it? I'm not a bad guy. Like, in his...
Em Schulz: And you know, you know him with the train, he's all about logistics.
Christine Schiefer: Logistics.
Em Schulz: So he's got... It's like...
Christine Schiefer: He's got a blueprint for everything.
Em Schulz: You're a witness now, so the strategy has changed.
Christine Schiefer: Everybody understands, he says, fucking lunatic. So as he later described to the judge, umm, when he came to that realization, and this is blood, blood chilling, umm, he "made a decision to go ahead and put them all down."
Em Schulz: Oh. Woah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And again, he sees them as, others, as animals, as not humans, as...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Not children, he just... I'm gonna put them down. And he uses that terminology a lot, which is so disturbing. So this is the part... All of the next few paragraphs are extremely disturbing, umm, and pretty graphic folks, so please, umm, you know, be kind to yourself. Skip forward if you'd like, umm, but here we go. So Rader placed a plastic bag over Joseph's head and tightened it. Uh, he then strangled Julie, later commenting that he didn't realize how hard it was to strangle a person, as he had only ever killed cats before.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, as an example, he claimed he thought he'd strangled both Mr. Otero and Josephine, the 11-year-old to death, but they both later came to, and he had to strangle them again, essentially.
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: My God.
Christine Schiefer: So, Joseph, the father, managed to chew a hole through the plastic bag that was over his head, so Dennis added a t-shirt and another plastic bag.
Em Schulz: Gasp!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And that ultimately killed him. So, Dennis then went after Joseph Jr or Joey next, he placed a plastic bag over Joey's head and strangled him as well. Umm, there was a chair found in the room, which police assumed, uh, was used by the killer to sit and watch as Joey suffocated to death. But for whatever reason, and this is kind of a pattern with him, Dennis later claimed, he was only using that chair when he was subduing Joey and he left... He didn't sit and watch Joey die, 'cause that's too far.
Em Schulz: That would be cruel.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: That would be cruel.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's where the, that's where the mindset is, is so fucked up. He, he says, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done that. No, no, I didn't do that. Yes, I did tie a plastic bag around a child's head and kill him, but no, no, I wouldn't sit there and watch. So I don't even know what to believe, because I don't believe a fucking word out of this idiot's mouth, but he really does think, like, that makes sense to people. Umm, I, I don't think I even mentioned this anywhere in my notes, so I'll just throw it in here as well, he also claims that he never raped a woman, because that would be, in his own words, going too far.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, he's...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know, it's just like, oh, okay. So you... So, we're supposed to think you have some sense of decency then, I guess, because you won't... And he said, even serial killers have a line they won't cross. You're murdering people's children in the most gruesome brutal way, but, but rape is too far, you know? I just...
Em Schulz: I wish I could ask what his, like, definition of cruel is, because for him... 'Cause some things he's like, oh, I wouldn't do that, but it's like, okay, but there's other things that you're clearly capable and willing of. Like, so...
Christine Schiefer: And don't even find that disturbing, you know? Like...
Em Schulz: It's like, where is your line? Where is your own line with like, what's fucked up?
Christine Schiefer: Rape, that's his own line, he said he would never cross that line. Too far.
Em Schulz: That's it? Just that one?
Christine Schiefer: That's it. Just that one.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So...
Em Schulz: Okay. That's why R isn't in his name, I guess. It's just BTK.
Christine Schiefer: Right, exactly. He's like, that would be uncouth. It's like, okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay, sure. Whatever you say.
Christine Schiefer: So the last to die was Josephine. Umm, this, again, please fast forward a few times if you are anybody but Em and Eva and our editor, Jack, because I'm so sorry, but they have to hear this. Umm, but yeah, folks, please fast forward a few times, if you don't wanna hear this part, it's pretty fucking upsetting. Dennis took a barely conscious Josephine down to the basement, umm, and he decided to... He first asked if she had a camera, if her family had a camera in the house, because he wanted to take some photos of her? She said, no, we don't have a camera. So he sets up a rope that he hangs from a pipe in the basement, and he is getting her set up to hang her from the rope, and her last words are to ask him, what's going to happen to me? And Dennis calmly told her, 'Well, honey, you're going to be in heaven with the rest of your family.'
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: He then, hanged her from the pipe and pulled her underwear down, and uh, her body was later found with semen on and around it.
Em Schulz: Oh, so wait, he's not into rape, but that...
Christine Schiefer: But that's okay.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's... It's so...
Em Schulz: Alright.
Christine Schiefer: There's these, these imaginary lines he creates make no fucking sense.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, folks, the really gruesome details are over. Uh, it's still obviously fucked up, but you can start listening again, as far as, uh, the, the, the graphic details.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So afterwards, Rader cleaned up, he took the family's radio and their car, uh, which was pretty much out of guess, uh, and he parked it in a parking lot and threw the keys onto the roof of the store. Uh, the two youngest Otero siblings got home first, and when the oldest, Charlie arrived, he noticed his dog Lucky in the backyard, which was not normal. The front was locked, which was also unusual, so he went through the back and he saw a chaotic mess in the kitchen, and his mother was very tidy, very... Uh, kept a very clean house, and also, was always waiting with open arms at the front door when he got home from school. So he knew something was immediately wrong. Then he heard his younger siblings calling to him, saying something to the effect of, come quick, mom and dad are playing a mean trick on us.
Em Schulz: Oh, God. What, what is with the tricks and the pranks?
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, I know. And I just, I just wonder if that's just a way of, like, telling yourself, this isn't real, like, almost...
Em Schulz: Like, desperately in denial. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In denial. Yeah, that's what it feels like to me. And so, he finds his parents strangled in their rooms. Umm, he said they didn't even look like themselves anymore...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Because of the means of death. Umm, he said in an interview, you could smell death. You could smell fear. I can still smell fear.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like... It's chilling.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: His sister Carmen later testified that she tried to cut through her mom's bloody gag with a pair of nail clippers, because she didn't know how to get it off her face. So, Charlie also said years later, when he described this day, umm, and you can just see the survivors, the ones that Dennis said will be fine, 'cause they're old enough to take care of themselves, uh, they're so fucked up about this whole thing, obviously, and he explained, my heart just broke that day. It felt like somebody had ripped my chest wide open and pulled my heart out. My life changed instantly. So, the phone line had been cut, uh, so they ran to a neighbor's house to call the police, and when they were at the station, the surviving children begged police to protect Joey and Josie from going back to the house, because they didn't realize Joey and Josie were both already dead and in the house. They only knew about their parents. So the police and a pastor had to come tell Charlie that both of his youngest siblings had been found in the house and had been killed as well. Uh...
Em Schulz: Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: So Charlie said, at the very least, he was grateful he hadn't discovered them, because he said, he didn't know if he'd been able to handle it himself, if, if he had seen that with his own eyes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So back at the crime scene, police noted that nothing of value seemed to have been stolen, plus the thermostat had been turned up really high, and Dennis later explained that he turned the temperature up really high, because he wanted to mess up their body heat temperatures and the decomposition, which he read in a True Detective magazine.
Em Schulz: Oh, Law & Order over here. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. Yeah, good one. So he learned a lot of his "ideas and tricks" from crime scene magazines, from, you know, those kind of creepy...
Em Schulz: I like how that makes him an expert, when like, we've read all that, so are we experts, like, now?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, exactly. Exactly. And he just has that complex, where he, he knows what he's doing, not. So he also did some really bizarre stuff at crime scenes that we didn't know about until later when he explained them, after he'd been caught. Uh, like, he would get a water glass out of the cabinet, drink a glass of water, then wash it and put it back in the cupboard and he got all, like, hot and heavy over it, because...
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: He was like, they'll never know that I used their water cup.
Em Schulz: Like, his own in control... It's like a moment for himself of like, I'm violating... It feels violating in a very intimate way.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, intimate.
Em Schulz: Where like, in times of a serial killer in your home, I would imagine you're prioritizing which things would be the most violating...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, hurting your body, hurting someone you love, but like, the, the tiny things you don't even have time to think about them violating...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, the inside of your cabinet and knowing your personal tchotchkes and the things that you...
Christine Schiefer: Going through your stuff, taking things.
Em Schulz: Touching your things, like, you can never touch that cup again without thinking about him drinking out of it, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And that was his, his own little secret that he got off on. Umm, he had... I guess, it's like a feeling of, like, omniscience. He's like, I know, I know I did this, no one else knows. And he...
Em Schulz: Oh, like a God complex? Is that what you're talking about?
Christine Schiefer: A God comp... Wow, wow. Interesting. Interesting.
Em Schulz: Literal narcissist.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So of course, these murders absolutely shook the town of Wichita. Umm, you know, this is a relatively large city, but the suburbs had a small town feeling. People did not lock their doors. This was Kansas in the '70s, you know? People felt safe for the most part, and police even thought this Otero murder could be a drug-related hit, because who the fuck would kill two children in such, like, an execution way? Like, they were like...
Em Schulz: And for no reason. Like...
Christine Schiefer: For no reason.
Em Schulz: And like, not that there's ever a reason to kill a kid, but you know what I mean? There's no storyline that fills this.
Christine Schiefer: But yeah, they, they thought maybe there has to be some sort of reason, like a, a drug hit or, you know, something, something gone wrong with the parents and a relationship with someone else. And, you know, they were completely wrong, but they just could not fathom why, why else somebody would do this. And serial killer, the term was pretty brand new, I think it came out in 1974 for the first time. It was sort of referenced as terminology. And so the notion of having this deranged murderer on the loose was, like, unfathomable for most people, like, day-to-day. Uh, let alone someone who killed entire families at once. And remember he jumped from killing zero people to killing four. This was like, a massive leap.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So from the outside, it looked like a total, just deranged nut case, running around and nobody knew who it was, nobody knew why they were doing it. Uh, however, some people actually got a sense of familiarity with... Sorry. Hold on. Hello? Hello?
Em Schulz: Girl, was that Harry?
Christine Schiefer: Someone just knocked on my door. I'm texting [2:16:14.8] ____. Scared the shit out of me.
Em Schulz: That's... It's not Blaise, I can guarantee you.
Christine Schiefer: It was... It wasn't even a knock, it was tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.
Em Schulz: Eww. Christine, and it was loud enough that...
Christine Schiefer: Ew, Blaise said... Blaise said he didn't, he's not up here. Eww.
Em Schulz: Say, Harry, thank you, but no thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I'm good right now. If you're Juniper or Harry, I'm busy right now. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter] But Moonshine can come in.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Moonshine will find a way in. Uh, he doesn't need my permission. [laughter] So, for other people who witnessed the news of this crime, there was a sense of familiarity about it, and that's because Dennis' crimes eerily mirrored the Clutter family murders, which also took place in Kansas, in 1959, in Holcomb, Kansas. And if you're not familiar, this is the mass murderer that inspired Truman Capote's 'In Cold Blood.'
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, Dennis, of course, had been "inspired" by the Clutter family murder. He had heard about it on the way to high school, uh, when he was 15, and he was in his, it's so stupid, his dad's co-worker's daughter's car. She, she was... She carpooled with him to school and she drove him to school, and he had a crush on her.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he's sitting there next to her in the passenger seat, she's wearing a skirt, this is him describing it, and he hears the news of the Clutter family murders back in 1959, and hearing that story on the radio, sitting next to this girl, he had a crush on, who's wearing a skirt, it was, like, seared into his mind. And so, as he's older...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: He's almost like, replaying these inspirational...
Em Schulz: What the...
Christine Schiefer: You know, the things that...
Em Schulz: The fact that he's overlapped murder and sex with each other, or like, murder and arousal, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, they, they, they sort of mirrored each other, and he was struck by the fact that the Clutter family had been tied up with rope. And of course, that especially piqued his interest and interestingly, remember I mentioned he stole the family's car and the radio from their house?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: The two men that murdered the Clutter family also took a radio from their home.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay, so...
Christine Schiefer: He's like, playing this weird...
Em Schulz: Hmm. I see. He's like a copycat.
Christine Schiefer: Nothing that he does... He...
Em Schulz: Not a... Kinda like an homage, an Homage. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes, yeah. And he really thinks he's a genius but everything he does is just copied off other people, and not that I'm giving them credit either, but it's like, he just give himself way too much fucking credit for...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Being some sort of mastermind, you know? So many people at this point, truly felt vulnerable for the first time ever. Started locking their doors for the first time ever. Uh, there was panic in town, people, uh, wanted security systems for their houses, and thankfully, Wichita had just the guy, because Dennis started working for the ADT Security Company that same year.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: That was just fucking great.
Em Schulz: Well, that's the perfect, the perfect, not the perfect crime, the perfect, uh, setup for a crime.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's, it's almost like, if you read that in a book, you'd be like, well, that's fucking too obvious, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's like a Hallmark movie storyline.
Christine Schiefer: It feels too easy...
Em Schulz: Or a Lifetime or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Of a storyline. Yeah. So he essentially worked as a supervisor and he would oversee the installation of the security systems at people's houses. So of course, he now had intimate knowledge of different houses, blueprints, how they were secured, how he could bypass them. And he didn't necessarily bypass them, he just liked to know that he could, if he wanted to.
Em Schulz: Right. The power. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The power, the omniscience. It's like, just knowing in his own mind that he could do it if he wanted. Umm, he claimed later that during these installations, he often snuck through the family's things, and like, you said, intimate violations, went through their drawers, took home panties, took home stuff out of their bathrooms. Uh, he just liked that feeling of power. And what was especially disturbing, as we've discussed many times now, was his ability to compartmentalize, you know? He is the overseer, he's a supervisor at this job and everyone just thinks he's just a normal dude, right? Like, they don't know he's going in and stealing underwear, putting them in his pocket and taking them home.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, this compartmentalization, he actually had a separate word for it. Because of course he did. Uh, he called it cubing. Cubing.
Em Schulz: Cubing?
Christine Schiefer: Cubing. And he was the cube.
Em Schulz: What in the fuck? This is the most delusional man I've ever heard my life. Okay, so what...
Christine Schiefer: He's so delusional.
Em Schulz: I'm... What... Why... How... What made him the cube? What's that mean?
Christine Schiefer: Literally, the only explanation I could find, which I think is, because it's the only explanation he could give, is that he was a cube and he could switch to different faces of the cube.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay, so this is his way of describing like a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde thing?
Christine Schiefer: Well, yes. Which he also used to describe it. Again, like, just...
Em Schulz: Okay. Like, he would switch personalities, like the, like the faces of a cube.
Christine Schiefer: Copying others. Yeah, he could, he could switch, like he could, with a roll of the die or you know? He could switch to concern mode or he could switch his on and off, you know? His, his creepy behavior.
Em Schulz: What happens when you, when you put the cube point on one finger and a point on another finger, you just spin it, like, then what happens?
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, I hope he just...
Em Schulz: It's just topsy turvy all the way down?
Christine Schiefer: Motion sick. I don't know, I have no idea, 'cause I think he didn't put much thought into it, besides...
Em Schulz: No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. Hard to believe. Also, Juniper is meowing like a fucking maniac. So it is him, I'm gonna let him in, I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: That's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Otherwise, he will just scream the entire time.
Em Schulz: At least, it's not Walt. Umm, it could be Harry.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, Harry is like, hey leave me out of it, I would never disturb you while you're recording.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like, I feel like Walt is like, I have not been there in a long time. Why am I still being mentioned?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm in California.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, you think I went to Kentucky with you?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He's like, no, thanks, no thanks. I've been there as the vagabond...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm a vagabond, not an idiot.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, he has this cubing fucking explanation for how he is able to hold a job, make people think he's relatively normal. That being said though, it's not the whole truth, because people actually did notice some of his darker tendencies. Not maybe people in his own family, but people that he interacted with on a day-to-day basis. So, eventually he and his wife, Paula, just to give some background, had a son and a daughter, Brian and Carrie. And his daughter later told, uh, interviewers that she had a happy, stable childhood, and she was really close with her dad, or she was really close with her grandparents or at least she thought she was. Umm, she felt like he was loving and caring and a good stable dad, umm, and that just goes to show again, how compartmentalized this man was. I refuse to say cubing again, because it's stupid. [laughter] So, I'm gonna say the harder word to say, which is compartmentalize.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. So after killing one of his victims, this is just an example of his being so good at compartmentalizing. After killing one of his victims while on a Cubs Scout trip, and I'll discuss that, uh, in part two.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is just an example of how good he was at being said, pillar of the community, because he's on the way back from this horrible gruesome murder, and he has to change in a gas station bathroom back into his Cub Scout uniform, 'cause he's a Cub Scout leader. And he's going back to sleep in the tent next to his son, so he stops at a gas station, a rest stop to change his clothes, and he runs into a fucking state trooper.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the state trooper asked him like, hey, what are you up to? Why are you out and about? And he says, can you tell me what you're up to tonight? And Dennis says, oh, well, I'm a Cub Scout leader. Umm, I am, you know, out here with my son, I just... You know, some bullshit, I had a headache, I need to go get some Tylenol. And the scout... The fucking state trooper said, oh, right as rain, go ahead buddy. You can go. You know?
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: He was that good at just... He had just murdered a woman, like, an hour earlier.
Em Schulz: [2:24:36.2] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Horrible, gruesome murder, and he's just like...
Em Schulz: And he's just like, whatever. Just like, so...
Christine Schiefer: He's like, don't mind me in the, in the random rural gas station bathroom, changing my clothes in the middle of the night.
Em Schulz: I may be covered in blood, but you know what...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I do have a headache, so which one are we gonna take more seriously right now?
Christine Schiefer: Did I tell you about the Tylenol?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So of course, you know, the state trooper just says, okay. And meanwhile, he has a fucking jewelry box in his car that he had stolen from the woman he had just murdered, and he knows, if this trooper looks in his car and sees this item, he will probably be brought in for something, for questioning. But he is able to just fucking change his stupid cube up or whatever, and pretend like, he is just on his way back to see his son for the Cub Scout trip. State trooper says, alright, off you go. That's how easy it was.
Em Schulz: Imagine that state trooper later when this story came out, he's like, motherfucker, like, I can't believe I missed that.
Christine Schiefer: I knew something was up with that fucking guy.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Argh. That must be deeply disturbing. Umm...
Em Schulz: His boss was pissed for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, oh yeah. So, like I said, Carrie described a pretty ordinary childhood with her dad. She said she only caught a glimpse of his dark side once. Umm, one night at dinner, a family argument apparently got too heated and Dennis jumped up and grabbed his son, Brian, by the neck as if to strangle him...
Em Schulz: Gasp! Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: And his son went like, white as a sheet and Dennis let go. And it was such a fast moment, but Carrie remembered it being so shocking and out of place, that it just goes to show how unusual that was, that kind of behavior was to see from him, within his own family dynamics.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It really...
Christine Schiefer: Like, he's doing this in his head, he's, like, fantasizing about it and he's doing it to other people, but to his family, that was shocking and seared him to their memory.
Em Schulz: Like, it was... Like, he hid it so well, that nobody...
Christine Schiefer: It was a one time thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like, imagine what his son is thinking these days. Like, he's been strangled by BTK. Like, like...
Christine Schiefer: I know, yeah.
Em Schulz: And he just has to live with that. That's what we were talking about earlier when it comes to, like, not wanting to humanize a killer, but, like, remembering that there's people on the other side of it. Like, he's got family members that now have to live with the fact that their dad is a fucking serial killer.
Christine Schiefer: Has done this. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they've been strangled by him and like, what does that mean? And how far away from fully snapping was he to dying, you know?
Christine Schiefer: And almost worse, almost worse like, they've been like, comforted and loved by him, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or like, they've been like held by him, hugged by him, like...
Em Schulz: Like, they learned safety from him.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I-it's something so twisted where he... And he can't even see that in his own head, you know? In any case, that's just an example of how unusual it was for him to behave that way.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And to this day, we do see him, and I've, you know, sort of presented him as this sort of pillar of the community, but as I also alluded to, that's not really the whole truth, because people did have run-ins with him over the years. He, as you can probably guess, had a dangerous sense of superiority and entitlement and... He managed to get a local government job enforcing city ordinances, like, little things, pet laws, trash regulations, and of course, he took this and it went straight to his head. Okay?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the cliche of the health inspector who takes his job way too seriously, like, on Bob's Burgers, or you know, uh, it's like such a cliche. Like, he has this like minor bit of power, give him an inch, and he'll go fucking 10 miles.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And to that end, he essentially held people to impossible standards, uh, he used his position to harass and intimidate his neighbors, and he especially targeted single women, wouldn't you know it?
Em Schulz: Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He was known to only pass out dog-related citations to single women and even would stare into their windows under the pretense of "monitoring the neighborhood."
Em Schulz: Eww!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Like, he thought he was being so slick. He... This is pretty fucked up. Allegedly, even had one woman's dog euthanized for absolutely no reason.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Which...
Christine Schiefer: Just because it was a power play, and it was...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, like, I don't know why that hurt so much more, I guess, 'cause it's a dog, but like the fact that... I mean, I mean, he was killing people for no reason, so what, what's the surprise that he'd kill a dog for no reason?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what, what should stop him? It's almost like this, he felt like gave him the authority to. And it did give him the authority to, because people were submitting complaints and they were just never looked into. Right?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, people were saying, this guy is a fucking asshole, he's harassing women, uh, and you know, it just never went anywhere.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And that's what Dennis craved, of course, is this like, power over people, that they can do nothing about. Umm experts call him a power control killer, which is a type of killer, uh, that seeks opportunities to exert their power over other people for a thrill. I think he's probably the most obvious form of a power control killer I've heard of. So, torturing and murdering his victims, uh, gave him the ultimate sense of control, especially because strangulation, uh, is such an intimate way to kill someone and gives sort of a, a sense of connection to the killer...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, between them and their victim. So it was only about four months after the murder of the Otero family that Dennis targeted his next victim, and that was 21-year-old Kathryn Bright. He spent about a month stalking her schedule. And on April 4th, 1974, he broke into her house and lay in wait for her to return home.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And when she did return home, he was not expecting her to bring her 19-year-old brother Kevin, with her. But that's exactly what happened.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Dennis comes out of his hiding spot with a gun and tells Kathryn and her brother that he didn't wanna hurt them, he just needed money and a car to get to New York. He then ordered Kevin to tie up Kathryn and go to another room where Kevin, who had also been tied up, began to get out of his bindings, and jumped for Dennis's gun, but unfortunately...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Dennis managed to shoot Kevin in the head before Kevin could really fight back.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh, my God, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Dennis leaves coming there, then goes to strangle Kathryn, but she's fighting back with all her strength, and as he is trying to get her under control, under his own control, he hears Kevin moving around in the room next to him.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Kevin is still alive?
Christine Schiefer: He's fucking alive, and so, he goes back in and shoots him in the head again...
Em Schulz: What? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Comes back... I know, comes back to Kathryn. This is what he's been planning all along, just to attack Kathryn, so he's like, finally I got this other guy out of the way. He's strangling Kathryn and he hears Kevin fucking make a run for it through the fucking door.
Em Schulz: Mister shot in the head twice is still alive?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. He's still alive, and he has played dead and then run for the door and escaped.
Em Schulz: Oh, my god! Is he... He'd, he's alive today?
Christine Schiefer: He's alive, he's been interviewed, umm he suffered severe you know, nerve damage and that kind of thing, but he...
Em Schulz: Sure...
Christine Schiefer: He did surv... And of course probably deep seated trauma, obviously, but he is still alive...
Em Schulz: Oh, my god. Oh my god!
Christine Schiefer: So he goes running out the door. And Dennis knows, "Well, shit," because he, ever the victim, realizes, well, now I don't get to spend as much time here as I wanted. My plans are all going to shit.
Em Schulz: He's finally in concern mode, finally in concern mode.
Christine Schiefer: Right, he's in concern mode for himself again. So he says, "You know what, I did a dumb thing and I stabbed her," because he said, "I just knew I needed to kill her." So he stabbed her and later claimed, "I didn't like to use a knife, I really didn't," as if we're supposed to suddenly feel bad for him.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking sicko.
Em Schulz: Poor thing.
Christine Schiefer: Poor thing. So, outside, Kevin flags down some neighbors, they call paramedics, but unfortunately, after multiple emergency surgeries and blood transfusions, uh, Kathryn tragically passed away.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, like I said, Kevin survived with permanent nerve damage and he did give police a description of Dennis, umm, and they made a composite sketch, which Dennis later said actually looked a lot like him, and he was really concerned about that, but it did not leave them...
Em Schulz: Concern mode.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Concern mode. Right. It's switching that thing on and off all day long.
Em Schulz: He's cubin', cubin', cubin', you know?
Christine Schiefer: He's cubin' all over the place. But unfortunately, did not lead them to Dennis. So, it would be a while before investigators actually connected Kathryn's murder to the Oteros, because totally different victims, totally different MO, different weapons. You know, it just didn't seem to fit. Umm, police took three other people into custody, thinking they were the ones who had killed Kathryn. And this enraged Dennis, because as we know, Dennis loves fucking attention. Okay?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he cannot stand someone else taking credit for his "work," so...
Em Schulz: Which I think is, is, is still the craziest thing to me. I don't understand the narcissist serial killer, I need the attention but also, if I get the attention, I'd go to jail. So it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well so, can't you find something else to get credit for, where people are allowed to pat you on the back, you know?
Christine Schiefer: No. It's, it's like, their fatal flaw, you know? Like, they fly too close to the sun, so to speak. And...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's their undoing. So, of course, he can't handle this, he can't stand it. So in October, Dennis calls a reporter at The Wichita Eagle and tells them to go to the public library, and there they will find an engineering textbook, and inside the engineering textbook is a letter. And the letter read, I'm gonna read just parts of it, "I write this letter to you for the sake of the taxpayer," he's concerned for the taxpayer, "As well as your time. Those three dude you have in custody are just talking to get publicity for the Otero murders... " Oh, I think I misspoke earlier, I said that, uh, the three men were arrested for the... For Kathryn's murder, I meant for the Oteros, and...
Em Schulz: Oh, oh.
Christine Schiefer: That's what he was so pissed about.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: My bad.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, "Those three dude you have in custody are just talking to get publicity for the Otero murders. They know nothing at all. I did it by myself and no one's help. There has been no talk either, let's put it straight." Then he goes on in graphic detail to describe the exact positions and circumstances of each of the family members' deaths. Something only the killer would know. And after these graphic details, he went on, "Purse contents south of the table, spilled drink in that area. Also, kids making lunches. Door shade and red chair in the living room. Oteros' watch missing. I needed one, so I took it. Runs good. Thermostat turned down. Car was dirty inside, out of gas. I'm sorry this happened to society. Good luck with your hunting. Yours truly, guiltily."
Em Schulz: Oh... Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, so he's...
Em Schulz: So he, he definitely gave enough information to show that he was there. I also like the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so then... They...
Em Schulz: The watch works good.
Christine Schiefer: Works good. Okay.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Thanks for that side comment no one cared for.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Exactly. Like for what? He then added a PS, 'cause he can't stop talking. PS, since sex criminals do not change their MO or by nature cannot do so, I will not change mine. The code words for me will be bind them, torture them, kill them. BTK. You see me at it again, they will be on the next victim." So this is where he has named himself officially.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And another part of his letter referred to a... This a long ass letter, by the way, referred to a monster who took him over and drove him to kill. He called this power over him, Factor X. Uh, this was... [chuckle] This was essentially a way to compartmentalize or cube from the other side of him, like, basically deny responsibility, saying like, "No, that's not me. That's Factor X."
Em Schulz: So, one of his cube phases is Factor X?
Christine Schiefer: Basically, yes.
Em Schulz: So now he's not only naming his whole persona as one shape, but uh, he's also picking names for every character?
Christine Schiefer: Picking and choosing... And like, dumb names. Factor X, okay. But basically, this goes to like, his desire to figure out why he is the way that he is. He has this like drive to figure out what Factor X really is, what caused it. Rhombus, the cube, whatever the fuck it's called. It's not me, it's Factor X. Umm, and so...
Em Schulz: Okay. Rhombus.
Christine Schiefer: Police decided, [laughter] police decided not to release the letter to the public, because they weren't quite sure yet what to make of this. They decided to wait a beat. They didn't wanna send everyone off into another frenzy, so they, so they waited a beat.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And they didn't have any leads, so they were like, let's just give it a minute. And... You know. Their advice was basically, just be careful out there. We'll see what happens.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Meanwhile, because of the news of the Otero murders and the news of Kathryn's murder, they didn't know necessarily there was a serial killer running around, but they didn't know that these crimes were happening. And so, the demand for alarms and security systems, of course, just kept skyrocketing, while fucking Dennis was on the job, installing them for you. He knew all the floor plans, he knew, uh... He knew what he was doing, he just fucking loved it. He loved being in that power position. And meanwhile, as he is drawing clients' floor plans, as he is telling himself, you know, I could come in here and do whatever I wanted, and they could do nothing about it...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He is fantasizing about what he calls his projects.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So this is a...
Em Schulz: And those were people, are they people?
Christine Schiefer: They're people.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They're fucking people. Yeah, they're people. You're on to it. [chuckle] Umm, this is basically what he called his targets, his, his intended victims. And you know, this is just another way for him to like, de-humanize the people that he's targeting, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But he would stalk them, he would learn their routines and he would keep folders on their movements, folders on the blueprints of their house; even the ones that he never actually went through with and attacked, but he had folders on these people. And he would actually...
Em Schulz: Like, open cases.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, he had case files. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And some of the names for them were Project Piano, Project Green, Project Cookie, like...
Em Schulz: You know, he thought he fucking killed it with Project Cookie.
Christine Schiefer: He thought he nailed it. And you know what, he, he actually explained it when he was asked why, you know, why did you feel the need to name your projects? He explained, "Well, you know, people name their oil wells... "
Em Schulz: See? See? He fully objectifies them. Wow, wow!
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes. He's like, you know, boats and oil wells, they have names, and I'm like, first of all, do they? Oil wells? I guess so, I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: Boats do, but I had no idea about oil wells.
Christine Schiefer: Boats do. Yeah, apparently, oil wells do too. And he thought, what a great idea, I'll do that to the people... I'm...
Em Schulz: The irony... He was like, oh, well... Sorry, I don't mean to keep interrupting you, but like, it's just so stupid...
Christine Schiefer: No no.
Em Schulz: Of like, oh, well, boats have names. It's like, well, people have names. Like, you don't have... You don't have to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's a great point. That's a great fucking point, Em.
Em Schulz: Give them names. They already had it.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what the fuck? Wait a second. [laughter] That's a great fucking point.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's so stupid.
Christine Schiefer: Oil wells have names. Yeah, so do people. Idiot.
Em Schulz: People have... People already... They already were named. Like, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: That's a great fucking point.
Em Schulz: It's like, someone going up to like, the Titanic and then saying like, "Actually, this boat needs a name," it's like, "Bitch, she has one. What are you talking about?"
Christine Schiefer: She has one, it's...
Em Schulz: The Queen Mary could never. [laughter] She would be like, "I'm Mary, dumbass."
Christine Schiefer: Nice fucking try. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I... That... Well...
Em Schulz: So stupid.
Christine Schiefer: That would've been a great comedic break.
Em Schulz: Like, that's also... That's more info on like, his like narcissism of like, oh well, that's not a name I wanna give them. I have to rename them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's like, no, no, no, I get to name that person, not their parents. It's like, uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's a great... That would have been... If, if that interviewer had said, well, people have names too, I would have lost my damn mind, and been like, [chuckle] this is the greatest docuseries of all time, to just fucking put him in his place.
Em Schulz: And be like, "Don't people have names?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point, Em. You know what? You nailed it. So, Dennis has these projects, he even drives around during his shifts, with... He brings one folder, one special project with him every day, just to know he has it, right? 'Cause he thinks his...
Em Schulz: Eww, so like in case he gets bored, he's got something to do that day.
Christine Schiefer: He's got something to look at. And he apparently talked to his projects throughout the day...
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: As he drove around town, like, he talked to...
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's a sicko. So, he stayed busy with his projects for a few years, like, he managed to lay low for a few years, until March 1977, and that's when he decided to finally act on one of his projects. Umm, he tried a couple. Uh, he went to a few houses. He, he put on a suit, he tried to dress up real nice, and he walked...
Em Schulz: Like, like you're in the '40s and you're about to go on a plane for the first time, like...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I mean yes, literally, he's like...
Em Schulz: Like, it's a big event.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, this is an important day for me. And so, he walked door-to-door, and I say door-to-door, because in a particular neighborhood, he had several projects, so...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And this neighborhood he likes, because it was close to the freeway. So he tries one, nobody answers the door, he's like, "Dagnabbit, I'll go to the next one." So he goes over to another door, it doesn't work out either, nobody answers, wrong person, all of his little projects are falling apart. And that's when he just so happens to spot a little 6-year-old boy walking down the road.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's just so fucking terrible. This little boy, his name is Steve Relford, and Steve's mom was in bed sick and had sent him down the road to get a can of soup from the store. So, Dennis approached Steve pretending to be a detective and showed him a photograph and asked him if he recognized the woman and child in the photograph? We still don't know for sure who was in this photograph. All we know is that Steve said, "No, sir," and continued home, unknowingly leading a killer straight to his house.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So a few minutes later, Dennis knocks on the door, still posing as a detective, and Steve tells Dennis that his mom, 24-year-old Shirley, was sick in bed. So Dennis just fucking saunters on in. He turns off the television, he closes the blinds, this is when Shirley comes out of her bedroom and Dennis pulls out a gun. He directs Shirley to put toys and blankets in the bathroom, and he locks the three children in the bathroom.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Tragically, there is a gap in the door, where Steve, who's again, six years old, is able to watch this entire situation unfold. So he watches as Dennis brutally murders his mother, and he can do nothing about it, he's just trapped in the bathroom. And of course, he's helpless and he feels like he led this guy here, right?
Em Schulz: He had the guilt, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So he's... The guilt of that like, destroyed him later. So he watches through a gap in the door, as Dennis ties his mother's feet and hands behind her back, lays her face down on the bed, puts a plastic bag over her head, ties a rope around her neck, and then as the siblings are screaming and trying to get out, trying to bash through the window, the man just leaves. And his initial plan was to kill the children as well, but I think they were making so much of a ruckus, and this was close quarters with other apartments that he was worried someone would catch on, so he just left. And Steve finally slammed into the door so many times, he broke a hole in it and was able to get to his mother. He's a little 6-year-old boy, by the way, tiny.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So he's finally able to get to his mother, of course, it's too late, umm, and he said that mem... That image...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Is so permanently seared into his mind. And he said he just went down a dark path after this, he said...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: There are times he just wishes he wasn't alive, there are times he just... I mean, it basically destroyed his life, umm, forever. Even when he talks about it to this day, as a much, much older man.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You can just see like, how dark this has made his life.
Em Schulz: It's changed him, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. So, like, Kevin, uh, Kathryn's brother earlier, they gave police a description, but the composite really led nowhere. Umm, and so, Dennis was scot-free. In December of that same year, he struck again, and this time he spotted 25-year-old Nancy Fox while she walked outside to her mailbox and she would become Project Fox Hunt.
Em Schulz: God, disgusting.
Christine Schiefer: He also had an obsession with the number three, and her name had three letters, and he had a fascination with words that sounded sort of like sex, and that's why he thought Fox was the perfect name for his next victim.
Em Schulz: So this guy like... I mean you said delusional earlier, but every time you bring up something new, it like just really shows you how unwell this guy was for there to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, I don't know what the right word is, but it's for the people who like... I mean, who are not well, is the, the like, the the jumpings, like the creating your own conclusions and creating your own rules...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And, and thinking you have to follow them and...
Christine Schiefer: It... Yeah, it's, it's... Exactly, it's like seeing patterns, creating patterns where there are no patterns...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And almost justifying what you're doing and believing and seeing by...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Creating these patterns, like, uh, if a, if a, an address had the number 3 in it, which like, many addresses have the number 3 in it, he thought it was a sign...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it was the, the perfect target of his. He just liked to feel like he was weaving this like, web, you know, but in reality, he's just making shit up.
Em Schulz: The irony of him thinking that he is like the smartest person in the room when he is going off of like, Fox kinda sounds like sex, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You, you're thinking like, a 3-year-old. What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Fox has three letters, my daughter can figure that out, right?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, that's not a fucking genius puzzle you've just solved.
Em Schulz: Right, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, but in his head, he's, he's a fucking gen... Mastermind.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, Project Fox Hunt, fucking disgusting. He studies Nancy's routine, like, he did with his other victims. Umm, but this time, he went a little bit further with it. So, with the holidays approaching, Nancy had actually picked up a seasonal job at the mall doing sort of like, Christmas hours. And he would stop by her store repeatedly, posing as a shopper and asking her innocuous questions, just because he could.
Em Schulz: Just to like... Can you imagine like, you already have to work, like, and now there's like this fucking guy.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Like, let alone, whether or not he's a, a serial killer, like you just... You're like, oh, man. I don't wanna deal with this guy... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You just had to do be... You just had to be that fucking repeat obnoxious customer.
Em Schulz: And yeah, and you know that there's like something weird about him. You're like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: This guy freaks me out. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, why is he coming to my work so often? And then he shows up...
Em Schulz: Ugh. And not buying anything.
Christine Schiefer: Not buy anything presumably, and then shows up in her fucking house a few days later. So...
Em Schulz: Oh my God, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He breaks into her house and waits for her to come home, and when he comes home, this is how he describes what's happening. He tells her, he is a strange dude... Yeah, that's for sure...
Em Schulz: Ding, ding, ding!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, uh, fucking understatement of the century. Who just wanted to do some stuff to her and would then leave her alone, like, some sex stuff. He said, I just wanna do some freaky stuff. That's it.
Em Schulz: Can you... I can't imagine somebody walking into a room and going... Or walking into your house right now, and going, "I'm a weird guy, but I just wanted to do some stuff to you and then I'll leave." Like, that...
Christine Schiefer: Like, hello?
Em Schulz: And I can't even imagine... Like, you know he practiced on in front of a fucking mirror too.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And like, that was the best he could come up with. That shows you how detached from humanity he is, from like, just general...
Christine Schiefer: Detached, complete detachment, you think... He thinks like, that's normal. That'll be fine.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that, that... This will do it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so, he tells her that he... She's, of course, stuck. He has a gun. She's like, I don't know what the fuck to do. He chats with her for a bit, he even lets her have a cigarette, and finally, because she, she really feels like she has no, nowhere else to go...
Em Schulz: Stuck, she was stuck.
Christine Schiefer: Nowhere... Nothing else to do, she finally says, "Okay, let's get this over with, so I can call the police," and she really thinks like, he's just gonna leave her. And unfortunately, of course, that was never the plan. Her plan... His plan was never for her to survive the attack. And so, Dennis strangles Nancy to death in her bedroom and flees the scene. And because she lives alone, normally it may have been a few days before someone realized she was missing or report... Or discovered her remains, but Dennis just couldn't help himself. And on the way into work, he stops at a payphone and calls the crime in himself. Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: He... I, I, like, the, uh, it's breathtaking how obsessed with himself he is.
Christine Schiefer: Obsessed with himself. Yes. So he gives police Nancy's address and name and informs them they would find her murdered in her home. Police then played this call for the Fox family, but none of them recognized Dennis' voice, right? And so, for, for a... For a minute, they're kind of relieved, like at least this isn't someone we know, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But then they're thinking, well, shit, but now it's this maniac, like, the stranger who just is randomly targeting people.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it could be anyone.
Christine Schiefer: It could be anyone. And so, you know, all that to say, umm, he called it in himself, on himself, and as for Nancy, you know, her sister Beverly remembers Nancy as a loving, hardworking young woman. Her goal was to start a family one day. She was very independent and outgoing. She worked really hard, as we've already seen with the multiple jobs to support herself. Umm, and as much as Dennis thought he was some sort of mastermind, you know, the details of her life tend to be diminished, because people are talking about him.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's just the way it is, unfortunately. And in January, so the following month, 1978, Dennis sent another letter to the Wichita Eagle, this time it was a poem.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's right. Dennis is a poet, 'cause of course, he's not just a logistical engineering genius, he's also a creative mastermind.
Em Schulz: Uh, okay. I'm ready for the...
Christine Schiefer: It was... It was a pause... Just a pause.
Em Schulz: Okay, just hit me with it.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just gonna read the first line, [chuckle] because this poem, sickeningly was mocking the murder of Shirley, the mother of little Steve, who had found his mother. So he writes this...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, 'cause why, why the fuck not? He wants credit for it. So he writes a poem. And here's how it goes: Shirley Locks, Shirley Locks, wilt thou be mine?" That's all I'm gonna read, because fuck you, Dennis. And...
Em Schulz: Let me guess, is he a rhymer? Does he think it rhymes, [laughter] like...
Christine Schiefer: He, he rhymes and like, this is not even iambic pentameter. You know?
Em Schulz: You know, like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know who he thinks he's fucking fooling.
Em Schulz: Himself. He... Like, you...
Christine Schiefer: Oh right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, you know, he thinks that he's gonna be like, up there with the big dogs and writing at some point, like he really thinks he's just the best at everything, he's the best at getting away with things, he's the best at writing, he's the best at killing...
Christine Schiefer: He's like, wow, how did I get born so good?
Em Schulz: He's the best at strategizing. He's the best at fucking building and driving trains, I guess? Like... [laughter] He's literally gonna...
Christine Schiefer: He's really good at cops and robbers. He's good at all of it.
Em Schulz: The only thing he can't do is, be anything less than number one in his mind.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's like, it for him.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, but this is the best part. When he mailed this poem into the newspaper, thinking like, they're gonna publish this and say, "We found like, the person who killed Shirley Vian... "
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Nope, umm, the mail clerk thought it was a Valentine's poem, and so, they just...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Aww. Aww.
Christine Schiefer: He, he forwarded it to the classified ads and they just printed it in the classifieds, which like, enraged Dennis Rader.
Em Schulz: That had to tear him up from the inside out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! 'Cause he was like, that's not a Valentine poem. It's not roses are red, it might as well be. It's, it's...
Em Schulz: It's Goldilocks, Goldilocks, or whatever it was...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like, a confession to murder. And they're like, what a dumb Valentine. We'll put this in the classifieds.
Em Schulz: You know what, I'm so gla... Uh, whoever suggested that, I'd like to think that they actually did know what it was, and they were like, "No, no, we're gonna fucking humble his ass," like...
Christine Schiefer: Like... Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: It's like...
Christine Schiefer: You don't get that credit.
Em Schulz: Oh, I just, I just... Can we just remember him as the really bad poet, just to piss him off? Like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [2:53:48.7] ____.
Em Schulz: Instead of BTK, not even Dennis, it's just like, that guy who like, wrote that really terrible Valentine.
Christine Schiefer: Who was, like, worse at poetry than, like, a fifth grade boy who's going through his email phase, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, it's just really bad.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So we're almost end of part one here, he's pissed off that his stupid poem didn't stir a reaction, so in February, he sends a letter to his favorite TV news station, KAKE TV, K-A-K-E, and this time his letter is a little more direct than his veiled Shirley Locks poem.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And in this direct threat, he writes, "How many people do I have to kill before I get my name in the paper or some national attention?"
Em Schulz: Oh, that's pretty damn direct. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty damn direct.
Em Schulz: It doesn't even rhyme.
Christine Schiefer: How many people do I have to kill? [chuckle] No. But it is iambic pentameter... No, it is not. It is not that either. How many people do I have to kill? Like, what a chilling thing to say, first of all. Uh...
Em Schulz: And how bold, like, he's like, like, that's a guarantee, he doesn't think he'll ever get caught.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Exactly, he thinks like, oh, I can just keep playing this cat and mouse game and pushing the envelope further and further. And along with this letter, he includes some nicknames. Okay? Umm, one of them being the poetic strangler. Okay, Em, so you were fucking onto it, uh, he tried. He really thought poet... Poetry could be his new moniker, because after writing BTK, he said, you know what, maybe they didn't like my nickname, maybe they didn't like BTK, call me the poetic strangler.
Em Schulz: There's like... Uh, there's few things worse than nicknaming yourself, but to have to do it again...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because no one's taking you seriously.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's so embarrassing.
Em Schulz: That's so cringe, like...
Christine Schiefer: Like, not that's the point, right? But like, it just makes him...
Em Schulz: He's like, oh, oh, oh, this, this one, this one's a slam dunk though, this one's gonna get you. The other one...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, exactly. Poetic? Ugh.
Em Schulz: Which like, that should let you know that he's so, so unhinged that like, he feel... He thinks he's the best and... But he's... Like, he thinks he's the best, even though he's clearly not the best at fucking naming himself, but he still thinks, oh, well, the next one's gonna kill you. That was bad, bad words, bad words.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, you're gonna love, one, one of these are... Oh, sorry. You wanna say it again?
Em Schulz: Oh no, I just realized that I said kill you, and I was like, oh, that's not the right phrase...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: But then, on top of that, like, it's also like, such a sad insecure little boy thing of like, I just want you to like me. Like, I just want you to like, like the name that I pick. Like...
Christine Schiefer: It is... And it's so transparent, like, we can all see how much attention you want.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and how desperate you need any attention, because no one's talking about you.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And your poems suck.
Em Schulz: They suck.
Christine Schiefer: And so, the poetic strangler, umm the aphi... Asphyxiator, the garrote phantom, the bonded strangler, the Wichita hangman, umm you know, he tried a few things...
Em Schulz: Just imagine going to like the coffee shop and you're wondering what the guy next to you is writing in this tiny leather book...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, that's horrifying, Em.
Em Schulz: And it's just him writing the asphyxiator with a little stick figure of him.
Christine Schiefer: It's like... What's... Eww! It's like what's another word for strangle? Hmm.
Em Schulz: But what was it? The groton phantom... What was that?
Christine Schiefer: The garrote phantom, which is... A garrote is that type of weapon, where you have almost like a stick lever to like tying a rope.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's sick.
Em Schulz: Oh that's fucking dark.
Christine Schiefer: It's pretty... It's pretty dark. Umm, so after this list of potential nicknames, finally, the police were like, okay, we gotta tell the public, because this guy is just fuckin' amping things up, ramping things up. So, the police finally make an official statement to Wichita, "There is a serial killer on the loose in Wichita. We have no leads, and he is going to kill again." And that is the end of part one of the BTK Killer.
Em Schulz: You mean, the random guy who won't shut the fuck up?
Christine Schiefer: The poem, the Dennis, Dennis who's bad at poetry.
Em Schulz: Dennis, the horrible poet. The failure in poetry class. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yup.
Em Schulz: Wow. Good, good, good research, Christine. Uh, hang on, hang on...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry, that was so fucking long...
[applause]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter] thank you!
Em Schulz: Yeah, umm, I...
Christine Schiefer: That's beautiful, thanks, Em.
Em Schulz: I feel like, I mean, if the police are listening, which they're not...
Christine Schiefer: LOL. They stopped a [laughter] long time ago.
Em Schulz: Umm, I feel like I should try to like, vote in like, a rule though, like, if there's a horrible person out there, clearly doing things for notoriety, that you just name him something awful.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like, just something so obnoxious just to piss him off, because...
Christine Schiefer: I will say, I believe that's more of a media angle. You know?
Em Schulz: Oh. Media, if you're listening, [chuckle] media, media.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's more of the media that it picks up the name and then it like, spreads you know, 'cause it's "catchy" umm, which is unfortunate.
Em Schulz: But like, like I... I am very pro never naming an assailant or...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Because they want the notoriety, and they don't deserve it...
Christine Schiefer: You mean like, nicknaming them or like, naming them?
Em Schulz: Nicknaming...
Christine Schiefer: Nickname...
Em Schulz: Or they even naming them, but like, I mean, if they're on the loose and you have to know what their name is, that's one thing.
Christine Schiefer: Right, sure.
Em Schulz: But like, especially like, within the world of like all these damn school shootings and like...
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: There's like their name in the paper or something, like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, I feel like you should just humble the shit out of them where you can...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Where you can, you know? But especially like, BTK, where he so clearly wanted his name, so clearly wanted a name...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Just name him like the annoying guy, just something just to put him in his place for a second. Like, it's the only power we have...
Christine Schiefer: Just...
Em Schulz: Just let us have that 1% of power.
Christine Schiefer: And that's why that male clerk deserves a trophy...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: By putting his stupid poem in the classifieds.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: A genius, like... Hang on a second, hang on.
[applause]
Christine Schiefer: Wow, that's to the mail clerk. Props.
Em Schulz: Yeah, good job.
Christine Schiefer: Respect.
Em Schulz: Yes. Uh, well, well done, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, that was like the length of an entire episode. I apologize. I know that this is a lot.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: So, thank you for hanging on.
Em Schulz: That was, that was very well... I think for something and someone so notorious, even though I don't wanna give them that, that title, uh, for someone with a lot of information out there that you had to weave through, I'm very proud of you. So you did a good job.
Christine Schiefer: Well, thank you. That's very nice. And thank you for listening to this like, one and a half times, or however this ended up working out. And Jack, we're gonna probably send you some beer for editing this, [chuckle] 'cause it's just like...
Em Schulz: Twice.
Christine Schiefer: Like, so much tech stuff happening, so much chaos. Umm, at one point, which I assume we cut out, my tummy just said, "Hey!"
Em Schulz: Time to go!
Christine Schiefer: "Just jumping in, say my piece real quick," so it's just been a lot, so I apologize.
Em Schulz: Or as Jimmy Neutron would say, "Got a blast!"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Got a blast, indeed, uh, not to completely steal that tagline, but hello, umm. [laughter] I, well, Em, you just... Wow, you just sent me into outer space with that one. Umm, so anyway, thanks everybody, who... If this sounded even remotely clean or normal of an episode, like even, even cohesive at all, please thank, Em, Eva, Saoirse, Jack, who...
Em Schulz: Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack.
[applause]
Christine Schiefer: Mostly Jack, mostly Jack, for putting this altogether, and umm, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm acting like this is my like, fucking tour. I don't know why I'm saying all this, but...
Em Schulz: This is like, your finale, your grand finale.
Christine Schiefer: I, I just... I feel like I'm just so thrilled to get this fucking asshole out of my head. Umm, so, so that's all. I'm done researching him.
Em Schulz: Unfortunately, for everybody else, you can't get them out of your head yet, because...
Christine Schiefer: No, not yet.
Em Schulz: Next week is the second half, which we've already recorded, so...
Christine Schiefer: Second part. And I've already done that research, so we're done on that. No more... I don't need to read about him again tonight, I'm done.
Em Schulz: I'm so happy for your big brain fart you're gonna have later. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. I can't wait.
Em Schulz: Well, I guess, we'll leave everybody perfectly uncomfy until next week, so.
Christine Schiefer: Perfect.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
