[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hey.
Em Schulz: You know, I thought we were on Zoom and I was waiting for, "Recording in progress," and I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was waiting for the glitch, so me having like the ultra-millennial pause was actually on purpose. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: There's gonna be one day, like a, uh, a thing, like a fun fact where it's like, "Did you know like millennials who are now 900 years old, uh, their, their, their behaviors were all tainted by COVID-19 and all the bullshit they went through, and now they have all these weird ticks, like pausing when something starts recording to wait for the little lady to talk." We're gonna be so unhinged.
Em Schulz: The millennial pause is like, I blame Snapchat for that, or maybe old school Instagram, because that's like when...
Christine Schiefer: What was the Snapchat pause?
Em Schulz: 'Cause both of them, when you used to press record, it took a second before I would actually start recording. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So that's where I think the millennial pause came from, but, uh, the thing that scares me more is the millennial zoom, like apparently we... Like nobody zooms anymore, like zooms in when you're, when you're like telling a video and then it gets like really like, you get to the climax and then you zoom in on your face, you don't do that anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what?
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's a no. That's a fold and fucking no. You might as well be a boomer.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you meant... I thought you meant zoom, umm... The, the zooming... The camera. Then...
Em Schulz: No, zoom when you're recording, like when you're telling a story on your camera.
Christine Schiefer: Then I thought you meant, come on and Zumba, Zumba, Zumba, Zumba... [laughter] I, I still do that.
Em Schulz: Right. Well, like I said, you might as well be a boomer.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hey, don't hate on Zoom. I love...
Em Schulz: I won't. I'm just saying the younger kids do.
Christine Schiefer: Come on and Zumba, Zumba, Zumba, zoom, zoom, zoom...
Em Schulz: What is, umm... What is your day looking like today, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, two, one, three, four, send it to Zoom.
Em Schulz: I guess we're still hawking.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I guess we're still singing. Damn.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not hawking, I'm singing. What are you asking me? What do you wanna know?
Em Schulz: What, what's your day been like today?
Christine Schiefer: What do you want?
Em Schulz: Okay. Oh my God. Oh my God. [laughter] Okay. Hang on, I'm gonna do the millennial pause and make sure that there's like an even space for me to get ready to talk, and then I'll, I'll do it. Ready? Christine, what is, what's your day look like today? What... How has your day been?
Christine Schiefer: Let me zoom in real quick.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wait, that's so embarrassing. I used to zoom all the time on my videos. Well...
Em Schulz: We all did.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's probably... Yeah. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So I was gonna say that my day is fine, thank you for asking. I was awoken at noon, 11:54, by Blaise with a giant cup of coffee, and I was like, "Wow, I ventured a parallel world where everything's great."
Em Schulz: What a life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was because he's been sick for like 10... Not 10 days, but like maybe a week or over a week, I don't know. And like so sick that he was not getting out of bed and I was kind of juggling everything solo, and I think he felt bad about that even though he didn't have to feel bad about that 'cause he was sick. But, uh, today was the first day he felt like 100%. And so I was like, "Man, back to my dream life of sleeping till noon, getting coffee delivered." Umm, so yeah, life's good. Thank you for asking. How are you?
Em Schulz: Uh, I'm good. I, again, parallel worlds because I've been waking up without an alarm at 7:00 AM.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: For days now.
Christine Schiefer: For what?
Em Schulz: Umm... I honestly don't know. It's some combination of jet lag plus staying up plus... It, it, it wasn't like I tried for this. It just kind of happened. And now I'm riding the wave until I, you know, fall into my usual...
Christine Schiefer: Congratulations.
Em Schulz: Thank you. It won't be forever. I know that. It never has been. But...
Christine Schiefer: It's not a phase, mom.
Em Schulz: While it's... While it's here, I've been waking up watching the sunrise. I've been eating healthy breakfast.
Christine Schiefer: You mean like the smog... Behind the smog? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, darker smog is becoming lighter smog. Umm, I have been drinking a lot of water and...
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: Drinking smoothies, ate oatmeal today.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Got work done before we recorded.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: It's like the Twilight Zone. And...
Christine Schiefer: Now I feel weird now. I feel uncomfortable.
Em Schulz: I do too, to be fair. I'm like, I wish... I miss, I miss the days, and by days, I mean like last week, when I would wake up at 10:58 and we would start recording at 11:00 AM.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I'll be...
Em Schulz: That's my norm.
Christine Schiefer: I'll be honest, like I was excited because I texted you, "Oh, sorry guys, I need five minutes. I lost track of time," and I was like, "Look at me giving Em five minutes to sleep."
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: And then no, you were working and I was rolling around in my bed like, wee!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like Humpty Dumpty. Well, usually...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Usually what I see on...
Christine Schiefer: Were you there? Sorry.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter] That explains it.
Em Schulz: I... Usually when you text and say, "Oh, can I have five more minutes?" I'm like, "Oh, she's a goddamn queen." I'm like, that's...
Christine Schiefer: I... Listen, I just, I love to sprinkle around my generosity.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: Every now and then I like to pretend that we actually were gonna record a 10:00 AM, but then you had to make us wait until 11:00, and so then I'm like, "Oh, thank God."
Christine Schiefer: That's literally... That's literally how my brain works too. I'm glad that we're both so equally unwell. Umm, except for now, apparently, I'm threatened by all of your like developments, your healthy developments.
Em Schulz: You've had a lifetime of this and we have three days before it spirals.
Christine Schiefer: I know. No, no, no, I'm very, I'm very happy for you. Umm, and I'm proud of you.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's awesome. Umm, and you know what? I just realized, speaking of like healthy things and non-healthy things, umm, I realized I had a reason I drink this week specifically...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And I... It's because it's finally happening, Em. I'm...
Em Schulz: What? What?
Christine Schiefer: I have a bunion. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh. Well, join the club. I think I have a bunion.
Christine Schiefer: Do you?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I got something going on, but I don't know what it is.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I thought you were gonna just call me the crypt keeper again and go on a whole thing about how old I am.
Em Schulz: No. I don't know the difference between all the feet things, but I do know my great-grandma had bunions and one of the last conversations she had with my aunt was, "When I go, you'll probably be next to get my bunions," and then...
Christine Schiefer: She would, were they like passed down in the will? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, then lo and behold, like a week later, my aunt started getting bunions. So I'm just like waiting for the day that it's my turn. But I've got like... I've got a bump on my, on the bottom of my foot that's never gone away and it, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Where on your foot?
Em Schulz: The middle. The palm.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. A bunion is like where your big toe, like this bone where you're big toe is and it start... Your big toe starts to lean inward and...
Em Schulz: Oh, I don't have that.
Christine Schiefer: The bone kind of juts out.
Em Schulz: Oh no. Mine are straight as an arrow.
Christine Schiefer: It's...
Em Schulz: They're the only straight thing about me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well... It's a... [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know what? I've got a problem with with my toes though? I have fucking caveman toes. I've got like that big old thumb, could-use-my-toe-as-a-hammer toe, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Eww! [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. But she's sturdy.
Christine Schiefer: Well, Eva just said...
Em Schulz: I can stand real good on her.
Christine Schiefer: Em, do you have hand, foot and mouth again? Umm, 'cause you did, you did have that. So that was...
Em Schulz: I... No. This, this bump has been here for years. I think it's like... Is it a corn? Is that what it's called?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe, or a wart. I don't know. But, okay...
Em Schulz: No. Uh, whatever. Okay, tell me about your bunion.
Christine Schiefer: We're talking about bunion. Okay. So I, I knew my mom always had... I didn't know what, what they were called, but I knew my mom always had that pain in her foot. And she had all sorts of foot and ankle issues. She was run over by a motorcycle one time. It's a long story, but, so she has...
Em Schulz: What the fuck?
Christine Schiefer: These like bones sticking... [chuckle] And so, but they're, they're, they often happen because people wear like high heels, you know, a lot, and that's how it often happens and sometimes you have to get them like surgically corrected.
Em Schulz: Deirdre had that. She had to get them removed.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So I certainly have never... I wore high heels like two times in my life and I fell both times, so like that is not my issue. Umm, I don't know why the universe has bestowed this upon me, but it hurts like a bitch. And...
Em Schulz: Does it really hurt? Is it just 'cause you feel your toes shifting places?
Christine Schiefer: It really hurts. No, it's like the bone like shifts outward, so it's like just really...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. But, Em, this is what I've become. On Black Friday, I went on...
Em Schulz: Here we go.
Christine Schiefer: I went to drscholls.com and bought a bunion corrector for 30% off.
Em Schulz: Bunion corrector. That sounds like your... Like a brace for your toe.
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well, so at least it's...
Christine Schiefer: So you put it on your toe and then it's, overnight, you sleep with it on and it like pulls your toe out.
Em Schulz: Does it hurt?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Ugh. If it's gonna hurt either way, you might as well just like...
Christine Schiefer: No, no. It hurts... You when something hurts like in a good way where you're like, "Okay, it's like correcting itself"?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is that a thing that everybody else understands or is it... Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So it's sort of like...
Em Schulz: Is it with...
Christine Schiefer: It's just like, ah, okay, it's getting it to the right direction, you know? [laughter]
Em Schulz: But does it... I mean, is it like only temporary or can it actually like cure it without surgery?
Christine Schiefer: No. I think it can prevent it from getting any worse because like, I guess a bunion is... It's not... It's like you can prevent it from getting worse if you catch it on time, but if you do not... Here, I'll send you a picture.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Of your own bunion?
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no.
Em Schulz: Wow. I was gonna say, I'll, I'll send you a picture of my thing if you send me a picture of your thing.
Christine Schiefer: You wish. [laughter] I'm just showing you like what they look like, it's like your bone...
Em Schulz: Wait, let me send you a picture of my thing.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. See, you can't even see mine, that's the thing, is like you can't see it, I just feel it.
Em Schulz: See, you can see mine, but you can't feel it for me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I can't, I can't feel it at all.
Christine Schiefer: We're just taking feet pics.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Literally I'm in the middle... I'm like, "Oh my God, is this one sexy or no?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Is this wart on my foot sexy? I guess to some people, maybe. I hope the listeners are using their imagination of... To, you know, paint a picture of what's happening.
Em Schulz: I feel like my... It's not even like a good picture.
Christine Schiefer: Well, then I don't want it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Put the ring light on it.
Em Schulz: I'm trying. Come on. Okay. I think I got it.
Christine Schiefer: Did you get the picture...
Em Schulz: It doesn't even really look that good. Well, whatever, I'll send it to you anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Did you get the picture?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I'm sending you mine first and then I'll see if I got it. Uh... Your picture.
Christine Schiefer: That's not my feet.
Em Schulz: Uh, those are your... Oh, they're not your feet. Those are not your feet.
Christine Schiefer: Those are old lady... I'm sorry. Those are not my feet.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Jump scare, girl. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. It looks like the, the nail polish that my stepmom had in her cabinet from like 1977, that like pink shiny lead filled...
Em Schulz: So that's, that's what's happening... Over time, that's what your feet are gonna look like?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's kind of how it... That's like a bad bunion. So see the picture of the bone now up there?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like curving.
Christine Schiefer: It like... It like curves outward and it hurts like a bitch when you wear shoe, like certain shoes. Umm, Em, where is this lump you're talking about? I'm trying to...
Em Schulz: Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like mine looks like fucking nothing compared to yours. Okay. It's the little tiny white dot. The little white dot.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: See him?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That just looks like a little callus or a wart. Yeah, that's a wart.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it feels like... It's, it's... I don't know if it's a wart. It feels like a callus inside a layer of my skin so it can't like come out or be like puffed away. Like it feels like a lump of like hard skin.
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, it's nothing compared to that. So...
Christine Schiefer: It's just, it's just... It's like very painful. Umm...
Em Schulz: Ugh. I bet. It looks... I mean, it's like, I mean, your bones are bending, so...
Christine Schiefer: It's probably... Yeah. It's like... It's not great. And so I probably have to see a podiatrist. I can barely get out of the house to go to Walgreens. I don't know how I'm supposed to go see a podiatrist, but like, that's what my mom told me to do. So anyway, that's why I drink, 'cause I'm old and it's all happening, and I bought Dr. Scholl's on Black Friday. So you know what, that's me, that's the real me, people.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "And you can't take that from me." I like her. Umm, my aunt has the same little... I don't remember what it's called, but I, I told my mom about it one time and she said... Not my Seattle aunt, but another aunt has the same thing that I have. And she straight up like... I mean, this is very her personality, so like I'm not very surprised. But like...
Christine Schiefer: Like cut it out?
Em Schulz: She literally carves it out. Like it's like a fucking X-Acto knife and just chisels her own goddamn foot. And I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: That...
Em Schulz: I'd rather just have the bump, but thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that sounds like what I would do...
Em Schulz: That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: But it's certainly not recommended. And also, that sounds like a wart, because if it keeps regrowing like that.
Em Schulz: Uh, there's... There... There's people who like, will like try to like get their own ingrown toenails out with like, like knives and stuff and like kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I do that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Do you?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. I'm like a sicko. I, I'm... Of course, it hurts terribly and it's...
Em Schulz: Does it hurt? It has to hurt. It has to hurt.
Christine Schiefer: So dangerous and it's not safe and I do it anyway. But like with, umm, with... Like one time I had, umm, water in my ear.
Em Schulz: [0:13:16.4] ____ gasp. Did you put a knife in your ear? What... What's going on? [laughter] What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: It was a weekend at Blaise and I Googled, how to get water out of your ear.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, it said, you know, go to the doctor and lie on your side.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you said, "Okay, step two."
Christine Schiefer: I said none of these are gonna work, obviously. So I found another website and it said to put some lemon juice in there. So I was like, "Okay, great." So I put...
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I put lemon juice in my ear.
Em Schulz: Is that bad? That's... You're not supposed to do that?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't think so, 'cause all of a sudden I realized, "Oh, I can't hear at all anymore." Like I literally filled my whole ear with lemon juice, and then it just was full, like it didn't... It didn't come out. So then I'm sitting there and I'm texting my new crush, Blaise, and being like, who's working as an EMT and like driving ambulances all day and I'm like, "I just put lemon juice in my ear." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, you know, that would be the most like psychotic thing of like, you just wanted to hang out until you made yourself an EMT victim or, uh, a patient or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, I said I would call his... And they, they... He drove an ambulance like for senior citizen homes. So I would have had to like call his company and be like, "Come get me." Umm, [laughter] and so then I Googled how to get lemon juice out of your ear and it said, "Put hydrogen peroxide in your ear." So I said, "Okay." [laughter] So I poured hydrogen peroxide in my ear.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like a chemistry class.
Christine Schiefer: It's not funny and I know like Blaise does not like when I talk about this. It like really upsets him 'cause he's like, "This is so bad and like you really could have screwed up your hearing forever." Umm, but I've...
Em Schulz: And not only your hearing but like that's... Your hearing is pretty damn close to your brain. [laughter] Like you could've just...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Put a bunch of lemon juice in your brain.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Are you actually allowed to put hydrogen peroxide in your ear? 'Cause they're like volcanoes, right?
Christine Schiefer: No. You're not supposed to put shit in... You're not even supposed to put a Q-tip in your ear, like you're literally not. And I'm sitting here pouring, so I'm like pouring, umm... And you know, uh, my mom had those little paper cups for brushing your teeth, I was living at my mom's.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: So I like filled those with...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Lemon juice and hydrogen peroxide. [laughter] And then I poured them in my ear, and, [laughter] and then, Em...
Em Schulz: Oh my God, I can feel it.
Christine Schiefer: My ear... I couldn't hear. It was like the most... It wasn't like, you know, when you get a lot of water and it's like pretty... Or or an earplug. It was like worse. Like I genuinely... You could like set off a firework next to this ear, I could hear nothing. And I'm like, "Cool, I've totally destroyed my hearing and I'm like really making... " Like I'm one of those people who when I do something and I try to correct it, I, I then just make it worse and worse. Like I just keep digging the hole deeper. Like I just... I don't know. It's hard for me to get out of that self-defeating cycle. So then my mom had to take me to the urgent care. And so then we went to the urgent care and we didn't realize it was Indigenous People's Day back then, still considered Columbus Day.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so we got there and we like walk in the urgent care, and there's like nobody there. And we're like, "That's weird." So then we walk around, we're like ringing the bell, I'm like calling their number, nobody's there. And we're like, "That's weird." So then like we get the nerve to like open the door to the back and we start wandering through the urgent care and we're like, "Hello? Is anybody here?" I checked the fridge, umm, someone had brought baby care lunch...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, "Boring."
Em Schulz: Oh, put those in your ear.
Christine Schiefer: And then... [laughter] Okay. It probably would have been safer, honestly. And then we wander around, nobody's there. Umm eventually, we find a security guard outside and he's like, "Oh shit, the morning guy wasn't supposed to unlock the door, they're off work today." And he's like, "Don't go anywhere in there." We're like, "We would never go into the fridge and look at what they're bringing for lunch." Umm...
Em Schulz: "What? I can't hear you." Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Sure, yeah, whatever you say." Umm, anyway, I forget what happened, but, umm, I eventually, obviously, repaired it, umm, and I also was trespassing.
Em Schulz: Did it just go away on its own, you think? Or it was like...
Christine Schiefer: No. I had to go get like, umm... [chuckle] I, I think I had to go to an ear, nose, throat and like get it fixed. It was very bad. Don't... You guys, do not follow... I know this is so, duh, and everyone knows this, but don't, don't like follow medical advice on, "medical" advice from the internet. Don't cut out your ingrown toenails or your warts. Don't pour lemon juice in your ear. I know that this is a controversial statement but don't do it. The end.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like that as soon as...
Christine Schiefer: That's my PSA.
Em Schulz: As soon as the doctor say like, "Oh, Leona has an ear infection," Blaise is gonna grab her, like it's a, like she's a million dollars and just gonna go, "I got it. Don't come near her."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I... Okay. Also, what we do in my family for ear infections is something that really bothers Blaise. Because I thought it was normal. Now, I need you to know, or tell me if this is normal.
Em Schulz: Okay. It's not. What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] I was gonna say you can probably already answer that question. Umm, so we would always... My mother would always microwave an onion and then... Okay, so I'm already getting a vibe that you're like, "What are you talking about?" Eva, can you weigh in? Is this something your family does or is this really just like an unhinged thing that my family does?
Em Schulz: I think I... I think I've understood the, the rationale of like it could absorb something, like it absorbs the moisture.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Eva, says, absolutely not. Okay. Cool, cool. So that's, that's a big no. Umm, uh, yeah, that... Okay. So microwave an onion and put it in a hot towel and then we would like wrap it around your ear. Not a whole onion.
Em Schulz: I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. Uh, half an onion.
Em Schulz: I mean... Right. God forbid. I feel like I under... Like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Shut up. I mean, like 'cause then the onions actually like, you know, has its...
Em Schulz: Open and flat, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anti, you know, it's antimicrobial properties.
Em Schulz: I think I understand that like the, the fumes and the steam and the layers of the onion, maybe the wives' tale is that it absorbs any moisture left in your ear or something. I... But no, that's not a, like a, a normal thing I grew up hearing.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay. 'Cause Blaise's plays family loves to say, "Oh, let's just strap an onion to her head," and I'm like, "You guys are so rude," but also it's very funny. And so I get like mad and I laugh at the same time, and then, umm... Oh, Em, this is not a joke. I just Googled onion on ear overnight, to see like what the internet says, right? The first thing that comes up as a recommended says, "One method calls... " This is called Ear Infection Home Remedies from everydayhealth.com. "One method calls for heating an onion at 450 degrees Fahrenheit for 15 minutes, then once it is cool, cut the onion in half and squeeze the juice into a bowl. Put a few drops of the onion juice into your ear." Like...
Em Schulz: Shut up. That can't be real.
Christine Schiefer: What is going... Why does everyone tell you to... Don't do this. Don't do this.
Em Schulz: That's like Madame Zeroni from Holes saying like, "Oh, onions cure everything." Like that's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: "Find me the onions." Yeah.
Em Schulz: I have heard other like home remedies of like, you put like Vaseline on your feet and then you put socks on your feet, which like sensory overload, Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I do that. I do that.
Em Schulz: I also know about like putting a cup on your head after you've been outside for too long, and it like it supposedly like sucks the, the heat out of you so you don't get sick or something. Like there's like all sorts of...
Christine Schiefer: A cup?
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's supposed to like catch the condensation or something.
Christine Schiefer: I like how the cup is so ridiculous. I like... I'm like that's insane, Em.
Em Schulz: But like all I know is I didn't experience any of these. I had a mother who was the worst nurse on earth and...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And she... No, she openly says like, "Anytime my kid was sick, I immediately did not wanna be a parent anymore. I didn't wanna deal with it."
Christine Schiefer: What did she do?
Em Schulz: And so...
Christine Schiefer: She just like didn't wanna... Like she was like, "I don't wanna... "
Em Schulz: She would throw me a four-pack of Jell-O chocolate pudding and she would... And when I say throw, I mean, she'd open the door...
Christine Schiefer: Throw. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Throw it, and then slam the door shut so she didn't catch whatever I had.
Christine Schiefer: That's like fucking... That's like fucking, what's it called, Schitt's Creek, when she's like, she like doesn't wanna go near her, and she's like, "Mommy, I'm sick," and she's like, "Yes, darling," and like... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Truly, like I can't like... Perfect, perfectly taken right out of my childhood. And, uh...
Christine Schiefer: It makes sense why you have Lucille Bluth as, as her contact photo.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, every now and then my mom would scream up, "Are you done being sick?" and then if I said no, she'd be like, "Okay, well, stay up there then," and then, and then eventually get better.
Christine Schiefer: "I guess I gotta go buy more pudding packs." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so now, Pavlovian-ly, the only thing that makes me feel better is when I eat chocolate pudding. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's actually very sweet. I mean, listen, the... Okay. I don't know if your mom was the worst nurse ever, but my mom put onions on my head that she got out of the microwave. So you know what? Like she thought she was being a great nurse, I don't know. I mean...
Em Schulz: A searing hot onion taped to your head does sound pretty bad.
Christine Schiefer: Right? It's like, why didn't she buy me a pudding pack, you know? Like I don't know. Just saying.
Em Schulz: I, I gotta tell you, the pudding made it worse because it just created more mucus, umm, and then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yuck. Yeah, dairy.
Em Schulz: By creating more mucus, I was clearing my throat more, which made me have a sore throat for longer. So it actually is very not good for you.
Christine Schiefer: Well... Yeah, I will also say the one thing that really used to bother me that my mom would do when we were sick... And by the way, I have like chronic sinusitis or whatever, like I get sinus infections all the time and I, as a kid, I get them, got them constantly. And the one thing my mom would make us do also is like a metal bowl of boiling hot water, and then you put a towel over your head and you have to just...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like breathe steam in. I hated that. Umm...
Em Schulz: I think that was the, like my equivalent.
Christine Schiefer: But that, that one actually does, I think, work, 'cause it's like just steam.
Em Schulz: My equivalent to that was just going and standing in a hot shower. It's the same thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. My mom was like, "We're not wasting hot water. You can put your head in, in this bowl," and I was like, "Okay, cool."
Em Schulz: That's fair.
Christine Schiefer: "Fantastic." Umm...
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah, I was... We were a Vaseline, a Vaseline family. Umm... Or not Vaseline family. What was it? VapoRub. A VapoRub family. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I love a Vicks VapoRub. I still put that on Leona's feet sometimes. I don't know what it, if it does anything. I don't think it does, but it makes her laugh, so... Like when she's sick, I mean.
Em Schulz: How funny. What a sad game. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm fixing you." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I do, I do think, umm... I really can only use VapoRub when I have like a really stuffy nose and everything, 'cause apparently, fun fact for some of you people out there with heart conditions, uh, Sudafed and Mucinex like are bad for you. Like they make me...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: They could give you heart palpitations. Umm, and I realized that...
Christine Schiefer: Does it have Sudafed in it?
Em Schulz: VapoRub? No.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you were saying you can only...
Em Schulz: Well, I can't take Sudafed or, umm, Mucinex...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see. I see.
Em Schulz: For sinus stuff, which is why I rely on VapoRub because, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Understood, understood.
Em Schulz: I took, I took... I think I took both of them at one time, which was like a big old problem. Umm, but all of a sudden I thought I was having like an SVT episode and I was like, "What's going on?"
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And apparently, umm, I don't know if this like has to do with SVT, if you're like a heart expert, please weigh in, but, uh, ever since COVID, I have a sensitivity to epinephrine and it gives me really bad palpitations, I feel like a panic attack.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: Umm, and I guess Sudafed has that in it or something. So fun fact. Anyway, I guess that's why I drink. I can't take fucking Sudafed.
Christine Schiefer: That is fun, Em. Congratulations.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I don't you're running illnesses.
Em Schulz: And now I'm actually gonna Instacart some pudding today because now I'm in, like I got me a...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I'm gonna Instacart one onion and you can have, umm, your pudding and we'll be, we'll be healthy for the rest of the year.
Em Schulz: It's like our vitamin C. It's like actually just chocolate goop and, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Also an onion in my ear.
Christine Schiefer: Just like, just, you know, let it... Placebo effect.
Em Schulz: I gotta tell you, Christine, the... You really couldn't have segued into my topic better. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I know. You're welcome.
Em Schulz: Because... [laughter] I was told to say all of this. Okay. So I say that because this week, I don't know how people feel, please weigh in, and by the way, weigh in kindly, because I feel like I'm doing something nice, but if you don't like it, I'm, I'm open to criticism, but kind criticism. But I'm, I'm really digging these 101s because I never knew how to like bring them in as topics and to...
Christine Schiefer: No, I love it. I mean, I love it.
Em Schulz: I like it.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what the other people say, but...
Em Schulz: I like it, but if our audience doesn't like it, you know, I'm happy to change things up. I just thought like, "Oh, there's so many categories I wanna cover, but I... " It's kind of... For me, it feels like my band-aid over not knowing how to cover smaller topics, but if I branch out and make them into like big, bigger concepts, it's easier to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Talk about it. But... So anyway, there's another 101, and because we've been talking about our illnesses and our past illnesses and what we do when we're sick, uh, we're gonna talk about the Grim Reaper.
Christine Schiefer: [0:26:16.5] ____ gasp. Gasp.
Em Schulz: So... Which, by the way, we're not really gonna talk about the Grim Reaper right away, but we're gonna talk about who he is as a concept, which, umm, a Grim Reaper is a psychopomp.
Christine Schiefer: [0:26:31.2] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Did you know that?
Christine Schiefer: No. What's a psychopomp? I've heard that word and I love it, and I have no idea what it is.
Em Schulz: So a psychopomp is the umbrella term for creatures like the Grim Reaper. So we're gonna do a 101 on that and the Grim Reaper makes a little feature at the end. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Ah!
Em Schulz: So here we go. I love when you do a little gay scream. Do it again.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ah! Wait, no. That sounded like...
Em Schulz: Oh okay. It sounded more like a crow, but...
Christine Schiefer: I think that was a psychopomp, right? I don't know what psychopomp is. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was an animal escort to the psychopomp, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Eww. It was an animal meeting the Grim Reaper for the first time. Yikes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So a psychopomp, it is spelled psycho, and then P-O-M-P. And it is Greek...
Christine Schiefer: Love it.
Em Schulz: Or it come, it comes from the Greek word Psychopompós, which, uh, Psych or Psyche is for soul, mind, spirit, Pompos is for guide, escort, messenger. So it ends up being a literal...
Christine Schiefer: [0:27:36.8] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Spirit guide or a soul escort.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: Umm, so I guess when we're saying things like, "Oh, I'm talking to my spirit guides," technically you're talking to your psychopomps. But I, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I am.
Em Schulz: Technically so, yeah. So psychopomps, they are your soul's escort and they operate in liminal spaces, which, fun fact, liminal comes from the Latin word meaning threshold. So now you've got a soul escort who operates within the threshold of life and death. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! All my favorite buzzwords.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. I feel like I just like taken every word I can think of.
Christine Schiefer: Liminal spaces.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Psycho. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Psycho. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So psychopomps appear across many cultures and religions throughout history, but the psychological theory for why they exist, like the Grim Reaper or, umm, you know, a lot of people will say like even like a black dog as an escort and on your way to death. Umm, the psychological theory is that psychopomps are imaginary concepts that we've created to help us accept death, and it's a lot like a near-death experience where you, all of a sudden, see a bunch of stuff that isn't there. It could be your brain, like the, the chemistry of your brain just going fucking haywire and like you're hallucinating...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or these are concepts that we talk about when we think about death and to help us reconcile the impossible and the unavoidable, we've come up with guides that are more experienced than us who can help us along the way so we don't feel alone. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: So they're essentially, uh, a created comfort. And the guide, uh, or a psychopomp... How do I say it? There's psychopomps, and then there's a sub-category of psychopomps called asympathetic psychopomp. And sympathetic ones, it's, I mean, as stated, they're sympathetic to your situation. They don't take pleasure in...
Christine Schiefer: The other ones are all bitchy or what? Oh [chuckle] oh, I see.
Em Schulz: Like there's like some where like the thought these days... A lot of people have different opinions of like even the Grim Reaper were like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "Oh, he enjoys bringing you death and he enjoys taking you to hell."
Christine Schiefer: He's like looking for victims, right, right, right. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I got you.
Em Schulz: Versus a sympathetic psychopomp who takes no pleasure in pain or fear, umm, sometimes they've even expressed hating their fucking job being like, "Look, it's not my fault, like, I'm just here to help."
Christine Schiefer: "I'm an unpaid intern. I just try to climb the ladder. I don't know what to tell you."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "I took something on Indeed and like, it's just, I ended up here. I don't know."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "I got signed onto a millennia-year contract. I don't know how to get out of this." Oh, it's gotta be tough.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna go drink for ZipRecruiter if you wanna be the next Grim Reaper. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: They'll be much nicer, I promise... A sympathetic one only.
Em Schulz: Sympathetic psychopomps only. But yeah, so they're... I guess because the... At least the way I'm understanding it is that psychopomps are sometimes seen as bringing you death or being the reason for death, or you can negotiate your way out of dying and they can do something about it. But sympathetic psychopomps are usually the people who have no control of your death; they just appear after it's already guaranteed and they're gonna help you out in, in this transition. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I see. Okay.
Em Schulz: So it's not their fault that you're dead. They just like have the weird bad job of like being the next person you see after it's happened. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Right, okay.
Em Schulz: So sympathetic psychopomps, they're often found in art and literature throughout history, and they've been used forever in, uh, in different ways for us to de-mystify death. Umm, this is like, by the way, a major oversimplification. This is 101, not an advanced course. Umm, but a lot of people think that they're just creations of our mind to help us figure out, you know, what it will be like when we cross over.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But to some people, it's not just this imaginary concept. For some people, the psychopomp is actually a very real being. And the thought, I guess, is that like, well, if souls are real, it's not a far stretch after that to assume that someone would, you know, be employed to help the souls as they're going...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, I could...
Em Schulz: From one place to another.
Christine Schiefer: I don't... Yeah, I don't think that's a wild thing to believe at all. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't think so. I mean, if you're... If you believe in souls, you believe that there are multiple places that they go...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: There's gotta be some vehicle that takes them there.
Christine Schiefer: Like if you believe that you go somewhere, then it's not like that farfetched to say, and someone helps you get there, right? Like it's just part of...
Em Schulz: Right, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That process.
Em Schulz: Or like... Or if you don't... What if you're a soul who doesn't know... I mean, I guess you could then have the thought of like, well, maybe souls inherently know where they're supposed to go and we're just unaware of that. But you could also argue, well, they don't know where to go next, and if they don't have a guide, then maybe that's what makes them wandering souls and that's how we get hauntings...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And ghosts and because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: Someone never came for them, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Creepy.
Em Schulz: We could get really like trippy deep into it if we'd like, but...
Christine Schiefer: After hours? [laughter]
Em Schulz: After hours? Actually...
Christine Schiefer: Wanna trip, trip it out?
Em Schulz: I love tripping out with you. Okay, yes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so, uh, anyway, a lot of cultures think there must be a guide or an escort to help you figure out your next steps, and one of those, uh, this is my personal favorite, and, uh, there's people... Is this Scandinavia where there are death messengers and psychopomps like, umm, Valkyries, which...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't know if you know anything about Valkyries, but I have a personal love for them because there's a Marvel superhero named Valkyrie.
Christine Schiefer: I know about the Marvel thing, uh, vaguely. Yeah. But I know that they're also like a creature, uh...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: And I can tell you with 100... I can tell you with 100% certainty, Christine, that you're in love with Valkyrie. You're in like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: In love, like would leave Blaise today.
Christine Schiefer: My heart just fluttered. Is that Sudafed or am I in love with a Valkyrie?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No. It's Tessa Thompson and she's incredibly masc, but she's like so hot. And Thor... No, not Thor Ragnarok. In the last Thor, she kissed a girl on the hand. And then in The Marvels, which just came out last week, she... It is heavily implied that they're dating. She even kisses Brie Larson's cheek. I lost my goddamn mind. And when she becomes, uh, the ruler of Asgard, when Thor decides that he's gonna retire, he says like, "Oh, you're gonna be the Queen of Asgard," and she goes, "I'm gonna be the King of Asgard."
Christine Schiefer: Ah!
Em Schulz: I know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She's... She's so hot.
Christine Schiefer: I just, of course, looked it up and I'm sweating a lot, uh, sweating a lot. I'm sweating a lot.
Em Schulz: The thought, the thought of her looking me in the eyes is... I mean, there's no faster way to me meeting the Grim Reaper. I would just collapse. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's my psychopomp, okay? Am I allowed to choose my psychopomp or do I have to just wait and see?
Em Schulz: Like, "Girl, guide me," you know what I'm saying? Like, "Just wherever you need to take me." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Take me to your leader. Take me to the King of Ragnarok. Wait, that's you?"
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Yes, my king. Yes, my king." Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, so...
Christine Schiefer: This is embarrassing.
Em Schulz: If you'd like to like see a very, very subtle gay undertone, umm, in a recent Marvel movie, go watch The Marvels, which by the way, was amazing. And she kisses Brie Larson on the cheek. And you know how I feel about Brie Larson. So that was an experience for me. Okay...
Christine Schiefer: Well, well, well.
Em Schulz: Moving on. Uh, in Scandinavia, uh, Valkyries, or their psychopomps, where Valkyries are, at least in Marvel, they are a fully female army, umm, but they fly down, uh, they fly down on horses and they collect other warriors who have died in battle, and they collect the, uh, warriors who are worthy of joining them in Valhalla, and they bring them up on their horses and prepare them for any future great battles and they'll always look over their, their people. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: In, uh... So that's one version of a psychopomp. And then in voodoo, there's a powerful figure named, I think I'm saying this right, I tried, I researched, uh, Baron Samedi, and he is this figure who's said to be in a tux and a top hat, and he guards cemeteries and he guides souls to the other side. He's also said to watch over your grave to make sure that nobody uses your body remains for magic, which I didn't even think about that, but I'm glad he was on top of it.
Christine Schiefer: I... No. I respect that, but also like, immediately, no, I don't want a top hat man in a cemetery. It, it sounds... No, no. I'm sorry, sir, but I'm not really interested in your services. Thank you.
Em Schulz: You know, I... First of all, I feel bad that if his job for eternity is to be in a fucking suit, like that's awful. But...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's true.
Em Schulz: I also... You're right. I don't want someone in a tux watching over me in a graveyard 'cause of things... If you gotta get dirty at some point, like I need the guy in jeans and a shirt with holes. That's what I want.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Everyone is like in...
Em Schulz: If he's gotta throw his body over mine on a graveyard, like this other guy is gonna be like, "Oh, this is new, this tux. I just, I just pleated the pants. I don't wanna do that, you know?" So.
Christine Schiefer: "Oh no, I dropped my cuff link. Let me look through it, through the dirt."
Em Schulz: Exactly. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "Oh man, they just stole my arm for a spell."
Em Schulz: "Oh, oh, my shoes."
Christine Schiefer: "Thanks a lot."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Thanks a lot.
Em Schulz: I appreciate that he's taking his job seriously, but like, I need you to get down and dirty and it's not showing that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. The funny part is that is not at all where my head was. Umm, my head was more like, oh, this sounds like the hat man, like a shadow person, and I'm terrified of it. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But, but also, once you start talking about his shiny, shiny shoes, I was like, "Well, shit, you're right. He's not... It's not really ideal work wear either."
Em Schulz: Now that you're saying that I... We can flip our opinions 'cause now I, I don't want the hat man standing over me for eternity either. But...
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like how scary.
Em Schulz: But, you know what? If he's gotta be the hat man, maybe I do want him in a tux and he's afraid to get dirty. Maybe that prevents him from getting near me a little too close, you know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I can't decided anymore if I like this or hate this. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he's an unpaid intern who like showed up, who shows up with like way overdressed and the other interns are like, "Come on, like you don't need to wear like a tie to work every day. We work at like a reality TV show or whatever." You know what I mean? Like maybe it's like, you, you're overdressed.
Em Schulz: "We work on Survivor. Take your top hat off."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We work... [laughter] "We work on protecting The Cemetery, the TV show. Take off that tux."
Em Schulz: "We work on Naked and Afraid, take your clothes off."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh man, then he'd really stand out.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Speaking of which, he does, he reminds me of like that kid that we all knew in high school who like for some reason was always in a three-piece suit.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like, what was the... What was going on there?
Christine Schiefer: You're like, what? [chuckle] Like, for what?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, if you wanted attention, you got it. But also if you didn't want attention, you have to figure something out about your clothes. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: And it's not good attention, unfortunately. I, I, I don't know what to tell you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, can you imagine having to change out of your sweaty PE clothes and put that back on? Oh my God. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Christ. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So those are just some examples of psychopomps. I also wanted to bring this in 'cause I think you'd like this. Some psychopomps aren't even human or human-like. Umm, one common psychopomp is bees, because they are, for some reason, said to travel in liminal spaces, and in some cultures, seeing a bee flying by, uh, a recently buried body means that the soul is leaving with his bee escort to the next world.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. And then the bee like falls in your apple juice and you're like, "Well, shit."
Em Schulz: And you're like, "Oh, it fucking stung me." Umm...
Christine Schiefer: "Not again."
Em Schulz: Which I like to think is, like if I had one last moment on Earth and you were there, I'd be like, "Bee escort, fucking sting her. Just see what happens."
Christine Schiefer: Sting her. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: You know what, Em? Fuck you. Also, uh, don't bees die when they sting you? So that would really be unfortunate.
Em Schulz: Aww. Oh yeah, and then you're like really stuck there forever.
Christine Schiefer: For you, for your soul. [laughter] So yeah. Why don't you try it, Em? You have your escort sting me and then you're stuck here forever.
Em Schulz: Yeah, never mind. Uh, in Western Europe, speaking of the bees, in the 18th and 19th centuries, beekeepers were actually said to be guides for the guides. And, uh, beekeepers would...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Inform the bees of important life events, so when they were doing their beekeeping stuff, they would talk to the bees about what's going on in the world. And if someone in their family died, a person had to go tell each of the bee hives, uh, so that way they could get ready to go help escort the person they love to the other side.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like getting... That's like very touching.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just another reason to save the bees, everybody.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, right? I'm like, well, that's not good news for us.
Em Schulz: Save the bees, save your soul, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Wow, that's the new... Now we'll finally get that Change.org petition going.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just saying, if this is true and we get rid of all the bees, then we're all gonna have to haunt Earth forever because nobody brought us somewhere else.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I know that the other reasons bees are being saved are not nearly as important, but we should finally, finally pay attention.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. This is the one I care about for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, also, in parts of Asia, birds have been depicted as psychopomps, I guess because they can travel between spaces. So technically, they're a liminal creature because, same with birds, that they can be on land or/in the sky. Umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: You mean bees, like same as bees?
Em Schulz: Yeah, same as bees, that they're both like, or... I don't know what the right word is.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's...
Em Schulz: I feel like, I feel like there's gotta be a word for like a... You know how like bipedal...
Christine Schiefer: A flying animal?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like I feel like a flying animal should have like a name, like inter-travel or inter... Like they can be the on land, they can be...
Christine Schiefer: They're called... Aerial animals.
Em Schulz: Aerial animals. Like how a... Uh, like there are like some water creatures like, was it amphibians where they can be on the land and in the water?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like those are all considered liminal animals 'cause they can go between two worlds, right?
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of really cool, Em.
Em Schulz: So are frogs... Could frogs be a, you know? Anyway, as long as it's not a goddamn fish, I'm fine. Umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sometimes, okay, this part is where it gets sad all of a sudden, but then we're gonna shift real quick, so just hold on for like a second.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God.
Em Schulz: No, no. Like I mean, hold on 'cause it's about to get bad, and then it'll be okay. Umm, but sometimes humans...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Because they were so, uh, convinced that animals could be helpful escorts...
Christine Schiefer: [0:42:29.3] ____ gasp. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: They would... Yeah. Often they would create psychopomps out of living creatures, AKA...
Christine Schiefer: That's, okay.
Em Schulz: They would kill an animal, umm, after one of their loved ones recently died to then, I guess somewhat force this animal to be the escort, umm, for the soul.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: But I think the...
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: I think it was supposed to be really kind and sweet of like, oh, our kid just died, so let's kill our pet or something, and then the pet and the kid can be together.
Christine Schiefer: To go with him? Oofa...
Em Schulz: You know? It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Oofa doofa.
Em Schulz: Like the very first initial thought was sweet, and then they go like, "Oh no, no, no, no, no, no."
Christine Schiefer: Too far.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Too far. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So anyway, shifting gears, now let's talk about one of the first famous psychopomps, which is, uh, an, an Egyptian deity named Anubis. And...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Again, I'm pretty sure I said that right. I looked at...
Christine Schiefer: You did.
Em Schulz: Several Youtube videos.
Christine Schiefer: I, I know about Anubis a bit.
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. Umm, so do you know how to describe him? Do you know what he looks like?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He has, umm, the body of a human and then the head of... It's either like a, is it like a coyote or it's, it's a...
Em Schulz: [0:43:40.1] ____ gasp. Very good, Christine. Well, he's...
Christine Schiefer: Is it?
Em Schulz: It's a, it's a jackal, but you're very close.
Christine Schiefer: Dog? Oh, a jackal. Okay.
Em Schulz: And he's also known as the God of the dead. So he's not just responsible for the dead, but he's also the god of embalming, aerial rituals.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He would perform rituals himself while bodies were being prepped. He would guard burial sites. And because of all this, he was also an escort for souls to their next place while protecting them on the journey because I guess on that journey, your soul could bump into other spirits and things like that and he's the one that would, I guess, I don't know, tell you like don't talk to that guy, he's a little fucking crazy, you know?
Christine Schiefer: And then the other guy's like, "Umm, you have the head of a jackal, okay?"
Em Schulz: Right. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "You're not one to judge."
Em Schulz: "You're called the God of the Dead." Like, "Wouldn't wanna be you."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like, "Okay, go off, King."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But, umm... So anyway, the... He would protect you from other spirits on your way to the next place. And after guiding you through this part of the afterlife, Anubis would then take you to your judgment ceremony. I feel like you probably know way more about this stuff than I do, so I'm giving like the most over-simplified version. But...
Christine Schiefer: I'll be honest, like I, I learned a lot of it from that Rituals episode we did where we talked about...
Em Schulz: Oh really?
Christine Schiefer: I'm pretty sure it was on rituals, wasn't it? Where we talked about like the Egyptian Book of the Dead and like how you were supposed to learn, umm, of the different, uh, trials and tests that you'd be put through in the afterlife.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You have to weigh your heart and a feather or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Umm, but yeah, I feel like I learned a lot about that from, from that Rituals episode. So...
Em Schulz: Well, all right. Well, so...
Christine Schiefer: That was... You hosted that one, so congratulations, you're my, you're my ultimate teacher.
Em Schulz: Look at me go.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you would like a more in-depth version, by the way, please go listen to the Rituals Episode because this is not...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: This is not the research you're looking for, I'll tell you that. Over there, there was a whole team of researchers and here was...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Me and Saoirse, which, love you, Saoirse, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Which is still a good team.
Em Schulz: We can't compare to them.
Christine Schiefer: A great team. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, so... Okay. So Anubis would take you through the afterlife and then you, uh, he would take you to the judging, the judgment ceremony, which is where you would have to confess all of your wrongdoings to 42 judges, and, uh, then Anubis would take you to a weighing ceremony, which you just mentioned. So here, uh, is, at the weighing ceremony, is the goddess of truth balance and justice, and she would put your heart on a scale and weigh it next to a feather.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Okay.
Em Schulz: And if your...
Christine Schiefer: I remembered a lot more than I thought. I thought I was just making shit up, but okay, great.
Em Schulz: No, you nailed it. And also, I remember I was having some sort of commentary about like weighing your heart against a feather. But if your soul's heart is balanced with the feather, if it's in balance and light as a feather, light as a feather, then you had a good life, you've got nothing really weighing you down, see.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And you would live in peace forever. If you do not confess everything at that judgment ceremony and you had more shit that was on your heart and it was heavier than a feather, then it was fed to Ammut the Devourer of the Dead. So, umm, he handled it from there.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It feels like we go from 0-60 so fucking fast, it's like, weigh your heart, you can live happily ever after, or you're... The destroyer of worlds, it's like, holy, crap. Wow.
Em Schulz: It's like, "Oh, we're as light as a feather." "Psych, the devourer of the dead is gonna come lead you in eternal darkness." Umm...
Christine Schiefer: "Nice try."
Em Schulz: So... And, and his name's Ammut, A-M-M-U-T. He has the front legs or the front half of a lion. He has the hind legs of a hippo. And he has the head of a crocodile. And I think the three were to represent the three biggest, at the time, during ancient Egypt...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: The three biggest man-eating animals or the three biggest threats to man.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. Okay.
Em Schulz: So, umm, that's why he would eat your heart and then leave your soul forever. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: So there you go. So that's like a lot of pressure. I am glad I don't have to, umm... That was not the belief pressed on me growing up. That would be too much, I think, for my poor anxiety. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's a lot.
Em Schulz: Now, there's a more, uh, uh, more modern belief of this called, I think I'm saying it right, kemetism? Kemetism? Kemetism? Umm, and it's where Anubis is still seen as a psychopomp, uh, but this time he's seen as much more kind and comforting. In my mind, the original version of him didn't seem all that menacing, but I guess this is an even more comforting version of him. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: At some point in history, uh, there are some people who actually combined Anubis with the Greek psychopomp, Hermes. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So they ended up becoming their own mishmashed figure with each other, which they're both protectors of souls and messengers, right? Hermes is the, the God of Messengers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm... So it made sense where they kind of got morphed into one. But, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, even earlier when you were talking about how they can be sympathetic, I... Like my thought was, don't shoot the messenger, you know, they're just there to...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like guide you. So that does... Yeah, it weirdly fits.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I, I... It, it makes sense of, umm, just different cultures have a protector of...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, beings, you know, just trying to get from one place to another, so why...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wouldn't you just kind of accidentally conflate them over time?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, Hermes, which as many of us millennials probably know as the one with...
Christine Schiefer: It's pronounced Hermes.
Em Schulz: You know what? Don't even talk with me, because I literally... I was like, I know it's Hermes because I watched Hercules, but Hermes, I have only ever heard the Kardashians say that word, so I know that they're different things.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like... I like how said it, and then I was like, I said, even how you say it, I don't fucking know. [laughter] I'm like I've no clue.
Em Schulz: That's the, that's the fashion company, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's the luxury brand. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I would not know anything about that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, me neither.
Em Schulz: Hermes.
Christine Schiefer: Hermes.
Em Schulz: But yes, I, I know it as the, the little blue guy in Hercules with the, with the wings on his ankles.
Christine Schiefer: Gotta love him.
Em Schulz: Gotta love him. Uh, he gave me a lot of like nerdy dad... Actually, he reminded me a lot of Tim. Maybe we should go back and watch that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Can you go Google-Image him? 'Cause he reminds me of my, my memories...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, my stepdad?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Let me look him up. Hermes from Hercules.
Em Schulz: Hercules. Does he look like Tim?
Christine Schiefer: I like how I, I think... I like how I'm like, "Google, don't worry, I'm not Googling Hermes scarves and... " Google's like, "We know. We know. We have your search history."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, Em.
Em Schulz: Does he look like Tim?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. But like in, like in, in like a very like rude way. Like I don't think Tim looks as like... They have the same energy, you know what I mean?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It does look like a, like a caricature of him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It looks like a caricature. And like he... His face isn't quite so weird umm, in real life, Tim's...
Em Schulz: It looks like a cartoon, like a like an overdone cartoon version of him.
Christine Schiefer: Like a weirdly animated version. Yeah, for sure.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I meant that with love, but it does kind of actually batch.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, no, but I see... I see it, I see it, I see it. Yes. That's upsetting.
Em Schulz: I don't mean to give him a complex now, but...
Christine Schiefer: I think he'll be okay 'cause he's a stepdad and I feel like he's used to this kind of bullshit.
Em Schulz: This guy does kinda look like nerdy stepdad, you know? Like in a good way.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, 100%. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He looks like he collects trains in the basement and knows the perfect routes to all the Halloween houses. So...
Christine Schiefer: You're... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Excuse me.
Christine Schiefer: So... So sue me. Now you're like getting defensive. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So sue me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So besides those roles...
Christine Schiefer: He looks like he knows how to insulate a basement window, okay? So...
Em Schulz: Exactly, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Let's go for it.
Em Schulz: So, umm, he looks like he would be in, in love with a woman named Renata. I don't know what to tell you. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well, that... That's a given.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I need Renata to look up that picture and tell me if she's just like head over heels for this cartoon.
Christine Schiefer: Like, "How are you feeling? Is this, uh... "
Em Schulz: Yeah. "Is there a, a tingling?"
Christine Schiefer: "Take your mind racing?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Normal thing to ask my mother. Yeah.
Em Schulz: She's not my mom. I'll ask her. "Renata, what's going on? What's shaking?"
Christine Schiefer: That, that... You're right. That makes it much more normal of a question. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, he's conflated a lot with Anubis. For people who don't know, uh, about Hermes, he's, uh, has a lot of roles, which, that seems to be kind of the vibe with Greek mythology.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like never just like the god of one fucking thing. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Some multitaskers.
Em Schulz: And not like... And maybe there's a connection I'm missing, but I feel like a lot of the Greek gods, their roles were not even... They didn't even make sense next to each other. It was like, "Oh, I'm the god of electricity and I'm also the god of Legos." It's like, what the fuck? Like in... It... They didn't make sense together in my head, so...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, Hermes, he was known most as the, uh, god, the messenger god, or the protector of messengers when they were on their travels, but he was also in charge of like livestock and merchants, and, uh, he was, uh, the god of shepherds, which I guess in some way, they kind of overlap, but it's uh, quite a stretch in my brain to get there. Umm, this over time, the... Particularly him being a protector of messengers on their travels, that morphed into him being a soul guide or a soul escort because he was a guide for the dead trying to send messanges.
Christine Schiefer: That makes sense. Yeah.
Em Schulz: The messenger. Messengers. Messages. Am I okay?
Christine Schiefer: Messenges.
Em Schulz: Messages.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Messenges.
Em Schulz: Shut up. My brain truly is unwell. Messages. I heard, I heard it. I knew it was wrong, but I didn't know how. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You nailed it. You nailed it. You nailed it.
Em Schulz: So, umm, apparently, I didn't know this, but this feels like a Christian thing, umm I guess sheep and livestock in general became associated with the human soul, is that like when...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Well, yeah, I mean...
Em Schulz: Jesus...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is called the lamb or something?
Christine Schiefer: The lamb of God and then like you're, you're shepherded. That's probably why 'cause like you, as a shepherd, the whole idea is like Jesus is a shepherd and shepherds you to heaven. So that would make sense why a messenger or like a companion would be a shepherd. Yeah, that makes sense.
Em Schulz: So my next note is, uh, he especially became known as a guide for the dead when sheep became associated with the human soul because...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: He was the god of messenge... I can't do it, and of sheep. So it's just like...
Christine Schiefer: Unless... Right, right, right, right, right. That all makes sense.
Em Schulz: They ended up overlapping later.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He was known to escort souls to the River of Styx, which I've never actually covered that in-depth but I would like to. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I would love that.
Em Schulz: And this is... So he would get you to the River of Styx and then he, he would get passed off to another psychopomp and his name was Charon, literally Charon.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: I don't even want to know. It just feels like the challenges are getting steeper. But, umm...
Christine Schiefer: For real.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, the River of Styx was, because water is seen as a liminal space a lot of times, in the Greek underworld, the River of Styx splits the living from the dead. It's the river between the living and the dead.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, Charon's duty was to get your soul across the River of Styx. So Hermes doesn't have to cross you. He just gets you to the river and then Charon brings you across.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: And that's pronounced Charon. I don't know why, I thought it... Oh. Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: It's with a hard K, but it looks like Charon.
Christine Schiefer: How do you spell it?
Em Schulz: Sharon with a C. Charon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Wow. Charon.
Em Schulz: But it's Charon.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: I hope I'm just doing that right, but look, every video I saw said Charon, and I went...
Christine Schiefer: And listen, I think I've just never said it out loud.
Em Schulz: The comedy writes itself. Yeah. So...
Christine Schiefer: It does. Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm... So fun fact, this... By the way, even if it's up pronounced Charon, this right here gives some fucking Karen energy because...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: She... And then she... I, I think it's a he, but but I hear Charon, I'm like, "Okay, girl." Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I literally just Googled the name and it was like, "Depicted as a shriveled old man." So, umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, that'll do it. So, uh, Charon is a... The whole, the whole thing is Charon's gonna get you across the river. But Charon doesn't do it for free. Charon's like, "I need to make this even worse for you." So...
Christine Schiefer: Is that why you put those on your eyes?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Coins...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Coins?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Look at you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you, I know I said it before, that just... This whole... I just love it. Fascinating.
Em Schulz: So it is customary, or it was customary for a long time, maybe in some other spaces, that, uh, when someone dies, their loved ones will bury their body with a coin, either in their hand and their mouth, on their eyes, a coin somewhere on them, so that way when the soul leaves, the soul has these coins to put in their little soul pocket and give to Charon as, uh, a toll.
Christine Schiefer: You're right.
Em Schulz: Their ferry toll.
Christine Schiefer: That is Karen energy. It's like, "Yeah, but for a price. I don't do this for free. Like, okay."
Em Schulz: And also, I don't think you can go backwards once you've already gotten to like, as far as the River of Styx. So like...
Christine Schiefer: Good point.
Em Schulz: If you... It's like going to like the movie theater and forgetting your cash and it's like, well, go home, 'cause you're not gonna watch a movie.
Christine Schiefer: Or sit in the hallway. Yeah, like, now what?
Em Schulz: Sit in the hallway. So...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, wow. Well, everyone else we've already determined is an unpaid intern, and then Charon shows up and it's like, "Hmm, give me, give me." Like, geez.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She wasn't gonna stand for it. She said not in this economy...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Absolutely not.
Christine Schiefer: Not in this economy.
Em Schulz: So if you don't pay Charon, it is... One of the thoughts is that you now haunt the river for 100 years before you can cross yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Which like, are you kidding me? Like in that case, can one soul bring extra coins and then that way when you get to the River of Styx, you can... Like someone else can bum a ride?
Christine Schiefer: Take a penny, leave a penny.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just dump a bunch on the, on the floor, let people, like if they need 'em, they got 'em.
Christine Schiefer: That now explains why they need people guarding the cemetery and the bodies 'cause...
Em Schulz: All the damn coins.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, don't take my damn coin 'cause I gotta get on that boat.
Em Schulz: Well, this is where I now finally...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: You gotta pay the Charon toll to to get across that... [chuckle] To get a ride.
Em Schulz: You gotta pay the... What, what is it? You gotta pay the...
Christine Schiefer: Pay the troll...
Em Schulz: No, I'm thinking of the cheese tax. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Troll toll to get in... The cheese tax. You gotta pay the troll toll to get inside that boy's soul, soul...
Em Schulz: Soul hole. Gross. Umm, anyway, here we now talk about our personal favorite psychopomp, uh, the best known and the... The best of the West is I'm gonna say. The best known in western culture. Uh, with the Grim Reaper.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Best of the West. He is a skeleton in black robes carrying a scythe. Uh, and we get this image of the Grim Reaper, or honestly, he's so popular now that people just call him death.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, he's been around since the 13th century when there was a story of three men who found animated corpses, like just fucking still alive, just dancing around.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: These corpses were, there were three men, allegedly, there were three corpses. And I guess they were either ancestors of the men or other stories say that these were their future bodies, and it scared them so much and made them wanna embrace life. Umm, the art based on this story started coming out. People started making paintings of the story, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the first known piece shows, uh, animated skeletons, and they were the first to represent death as a being.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, so that's where we get the skeleton. Then in the 14th century, there were a bunch of Italian frescoes that started depicting death as a figure carrying a scythe. So that's where we get the scythe.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, and soon after these frescoes were painted, umm, Italy came face-to-face with the bubonic plague or black death.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Which took out the number is as a crazy wide range, but there were some that say 20%, some say all the way up to 65% of Europe was wiped out.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: Umm, which I did look up, not that I thought that we were anywhere near this, but just to give people kind of an understanding...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, con, yeah.
Em Schulz: Of COVID. I, I don't, I never thought COVID was as bad, so I don't want people to think that was where my head went. But, umm, since COVID began, it's estimated, uh, by the World Health Organization that 3 million people died in the world.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. And what was the number for...
Em Schulz: For the bubonic plague?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They say somewhere up to 200 million.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Wow.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: The number goes up to 200. It's like between 100 and 200, but it's fucking COVID who? You know? So like...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: This is a, it was a big, big, big, big deal. More than half of the, the just Europe alone was wiped out.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder... I mean, it's probably like, I mean, this is probably gonna sound fucking ignorant and shit, but like, considering now we had ways of understanding disease and medicine and vaccines, like, no wonder it was so much higher back then, you know? Like we were lucky to be able to step in...
Em Schulz: Oh, I've thought that too. It's like if it were, you know, the 14th century.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's probably a really similar concept. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I, I can't imagine... I mean, I don't, I don't know anything about this, so I am blindly just so ignorantly getting a statement here, but I feel like if with all of the hard work people put into COVID and 3 million people still died, if we didn't have any of the resources we had...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: I would imagine it could have gotten up to at least 10 million people. But I also don't know.
Christine Schiefer: You say, I mean, I'm sure there are like actual estimations too. I'm sure people have, uh, done the...
Em Schulz: Someone's done that.
Christine Schiefer: Actual research on this, but yeah. It's, it's kind of scary to think about. Like, thankfully we were able to, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I guess stop it where it, well, not stopped completely, but, you know, at least prevent it from getting that bad.
Em Schulz: A lot of us did what we could. That's...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's how we can get it.
Christine Schiefer: That's a good point.
Em Schulz: Umm, but anyway, that was, I mean, beyond significant and jarring for people of that time.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And in the face of such monumental loss, and this was right after those Italian frescoes came out that were really popularized of death carrying a scythe and being a skeleton, so in the face of such monumental loss, people were now forced to reconcile with the likeliness of them dying at any moment. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: People started making a lot of art and writing a lot of literature about death. Umm, figures of death became very popular in folklore. And, uh, it, which it just escorts coming to you to bring you to death or bring you somewhere after your death was just incredibly popular.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And one example of all sorts of cultures just creating new lore after the plague, umm, is in Norway, there was a story of like, people often see an old woman with a broom, and if she comes to your house and she sweeps the porch, then everyone in the house will die. Or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Another one is if she knocks on the door with her broom handle, however many times she knocked is how many people in the house will die. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Not good.
Em Schulz: Another, uh, type of lore that people started spreading was that people would see ghostly kids walking from house to house and cursing those living there with the plague. So if you saw these little kids, you might get the plague, but that probably actually had some truth to it because there were a lot of orphan kids looking for food and shelter, and if they were carrying the sickness from their parents who just died, they might accidentally be bringing the plague to your home. So there was some truth rooted in a lot of the stories that came out of it. Umm, but there was also one cautionary tale that came out of, uh, I think it was a newspaper article, I think it was. But there was one man who claimed to see a man with a scythe riding over the water, mountains and valleys, and where he rode by, the plague followed after and did its work. So this was the beginning of a rumor or a story that kind of snowballed. And it was no longer the Grim Reaper or whatever psychopomp you are aware of.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: They're not coming to find you after you've already died. This story now suggests they're bringing the death with them.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay.
Em Schulz: So this is the beginning of the Grim Reaper and all psychopomps being like a, like the reason you die, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Like a bad guy.
Em Schulz: A bad guy.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Art started depicting death as a singular figure, collecting souls with his weapon. A lot of people said that the weapon of choice was a scythe, umm, because scythes suggests that the dead had reached the end of their growth, and it was time to harvest them into something new.
Christine Schiefer: [1:04:42.5] ____ gasp. Oh, ooh, I just got goosecam.
Em Schulz: So another example is like with grass, you cut it with a scythe because it's time is up and it becomes hay. So...
Christine Schiefer: And it becomes hay, and then there's new growth. Whoa.
Em Schulz: And there's the cycle, the circle of life.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Uh, by the way, just side note real quick, uh, a couple people have, I've noticed asked, what the hell is goosecam? Like, I can't find the, like the...
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They say it all the time. And I'm, I'm like, it happened in one episode, and I feel like if you miss that episode, then like, you have no idea what the fuck is going on. It's kind of how we say, 'cause we were recording for one of the first times and we both shouted goosecam at the same time because we both had goosebumps and we were trying to show the camera. So I, I, I've just seen a few of those messages and I've not been able to respond, not had the time to respond. So if you are one of those people being like, what the fuck are they saying? I'm saying like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, goose, it's just goosebumps but on camera.
Christine Schiefer: On camera.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's just stupid. I don't know. But it got so in our heads that we can't stop saying it. So.
Em Schulz: It's, yeah. It's just another word for it now at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah, glad you got some goosecam this episode, because, uh, I always wondered why he was known to carry a scythe and I had no idea that it was representative of the harvest of life.
Christine Schiefer: It never occurred to me. No, it never occurred to me. That's, that's really cool.
Em Schulz: Honestly, nowadays, if I see a scythe in real life, which like, by the way, almost never happens, but I wouldn't even know what it was actually for. I just assume it's for death. It was like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're like, oh shit. [laughter]
Em Schulz: More like uh-oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, uh, now the idea of the psychopomp in general is this skeleton holding a scythe, and he's bringing death to you. He's not just coming to escort you to the afterlife.
Christine Schiefer: Understood. Okay.
Em Schulz: But in 1847 is the first time we get his name, the Grim Reaper. And...
Christine Schiefer: In what year? Sorry?
Em Schulz: 1847.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. So he went a long time without a name? Or without an official name.
Em Schulz: He went a long old time. He, they just thought like, oh, that guy. That fucking guy.
Christine Schiefer: That guy again, that guy fucking guy. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, who invited him? He just keeps showing up. Umm, so he appeared in a Christian, a devotional text. Uh, and it was originally in German, but it got translated to English, and the English translation became the Grim Reaper.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Uh, Grim because it means uninviting, bleak, and dreadful and reap because it means to cut and gather a crop for harvest.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Makes total sense.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's a very catchy name, Grim Reaper. Like, ooh.
Em Schulz: You know? I, my favorite thing, especially in the more recent Marvel stuff, is that, uh, the characters aren't starting out with their superhero name. It's like you, you're getting to see the origin of how they even got their name.
Christine Schiefer: [1:07:25.4] ____ gasp. Oh, I like that.
Em Schulz: And like, there's actually in The Marvels...
Christine Schiefer: Are you trying to get in my head? I feel like, I feel like you're trying...
Em Schulz: Only for The Marvels, because I loved it so much. But...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, okay. Fine.
Em Schulz: Including, actually, an example is in The Marvels, uh, there's one, oh my God, I'm so in love with her. Her name in real life is Teyonah Parris. And she plays Photon. But in this, the most recent movie, she doesn't have her superhero name yet. And there's a whole running bit throughout the movie of like, what are we gonna call you? What are we gonna call you? What are we gonna call you? So imagine being the Grim Reaper, and you're like, eventually I have to have a fucking name. And then they pick Grim Reaper. And either you are for it or you're, you fucking hate it so much.
Christine Schiefer: Oh but it, it doesn't matter 'cause you're stuck with it, baby.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, it's like at least kind of badass if you had to wait centuries for the name. It's not the worst one.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I, by the way, when I was Googling Teyonah Parris, umm...
Em Schulz: Mm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I, my computer was like, oh, we know what you're Googling. And I was like, how do they know that? And then I was like, oh 'cause I've Googled it every time you've said like, oh, I've, I, I'm in love with her. And I'm like, oh, right. I've googled her many times, [laughter] because you've, every time you mention her, I Google her and I'm like, yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm truly in love, I literally, I don't think I know a more beautiful woman.
Christine Schiefer: She's unbelievably beautiful, just saying.
Em Schulz: It's like, it's just unfair. She had to have like agreed to a curse or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Damn.
Em Schulz: Like there's no goddamn reason someone should look like that naturally. It's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Not fair.
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm, and plus that's the same movie that Valkyrie kisses Brie Larson. Like it's like literally...
Christine Schiefer: I know, and that's not like you're clearly getting in my head. Okay?
Em Schulz: It was...
Christine Schiefer: I see it happening. And I can't do anything to stop it.
Em Schulz: I, and I, and you know what? As you should. That's exactly right. So, umm, okay. So anyway, so now that's how we get the name Grim Reaper from 1847. Uh, unlike earlier psychopomps there, who were just only escorts, now that he's got the name on top of everything else, I mean, the name Grim Reaper certainly doesn't help his reputation. Umm, he's now known as like, not just your escort, but the killer, the one who comes to take your life before he escorts it somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But as the plague kind of faded away and it died down a little bit, the depictions of death became nicer because it wasn't during such a heightened time.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So the Grim Reaper eventually becomes more of a sympathetic psychopomp like the rest of them. Umm, and death, as he was also known, is seen as especially kind to being an escort when it comes to certain types of people. So like, if you're a young mother or if you're a child, umm, he's not just like this evil thing that's coming after people, he was kind of depicted as like he is, he's understanding and empathetic to people who need him to be.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: So if you're a grown ass adult with no kids, I guess fuck you, but, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fuck you. You're getting scythed.
Em Schulz: Umm, I did of, I did wanna mention it just because this, these are my notes, so why not? Uh, in the 20th and 21st centuries, the Grim Reaper then ends up popping up in a lot of popular fiction. Umm, my personal favorite is The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. I don't know if you ever watched that. Did you ever watch that?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Yeah, that was a cartoon.
Em Schulz: That was a great show. That was great show, it was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I don't think I really ever watched it much, but I remember when it, I feel like I always thought, oh, I should watch that.
Em Schulz: Christine, I actually think even in today, and I think you would still love it.
Christine Schiefer: Should I watch it?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh hell yeah. Okay. I've literally bookmarking 'em right now.
Em Schulz: And they're, they're, they're really short. I think they do like, it's one of those like SpongeBob things where it's two episodes per episode or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, love it. Yeah, I'll watch it.
Em Schulz: But they're like little short. But it's the Grim Reaper, and he's, I don't know how, but he's somehow assigned to these two children. It's kind of like Fairly OddParents, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Great show also.
Em Schulz: Like, he doesn't ever actually escort them anywhere, but they're supposed to like, I think, help him escort other people.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And they go on many wacky adventures?
Em Schulz: Yes. But one of the kids is a total idiot. One of them is like, just a massive bitch. Like, just like so awful.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds so fun.
Em Schulz: She's so mean.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so excited.
Em Schulz: When I was a kid, I was so intimidated by her, and I was always afraid I'd meet someone like her in real life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, you're like the Grim Reaper. Take him or leave him. But this little girl is scary.
Em Schulz: I truly not, and I, I can't remember, but my childhood memory of it is that even the Grim Reaper was scared of her. So like it was like a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well, okay. That explains a lot.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm definitely gonna go watch it after this because it was...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna watch it too.
Em Schulz: It's so good. I remember it being so good at least. Umm, okay, so then the last thing I'm gonna say before, umm, it's your turn is that, uh, in the world of religion, umm, although there's no official angel of death in the Bible, it has become a popular Christian belief that certain archangels escort the dead to heaven. Umm, or personal guardian angels are assigned to us. Umm, in Islam's Quran, there's a reference to a psychopomp where it says, "The angel of death who has been charged with your souls shall gather you, and then you shall be brought back to your Lord." Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So there's at least a mention there. And then many people in general just kind of have associated psychopomps without actually knowing the word for it, with their own loved ones. I mean, me included. Umm, where you just think that like, oh, when you die, the people you love are gonna help you over to the other side.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure.
Em Schulz: So in that way, we've created our own belief that psychopomps are just people who love us. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I like that.
Em Schulz: And I don't know if that's more of a Western culture thing or I don't know what it is, but it's the way I grew up at least where it was some vague understanding that people who you loved who died before you are next to you at all times. And it, I mean, it's also been...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, told over and over again with people with near-death experiences that they like see their mom or they see their grandparents like waiting for them, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, uh, I've even recently listened to some podcast episodes that featured, umm, people who do, uh, work in hospice or do, uh, are death doulas.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like, uh, one of the resounding patterns that I notice is that people tend to, on their deathbed, tend to see like, uh, past loved ones. It seems to be a very common thing being reported. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, yeah. So I, I really like that idea with this topic because it makes psychopomps not feel like this like big, like overwhelming topic. It's like they're people who we love could be that too.
Christine Schiefer: It's more, uh, approachable or, uh, yeah, more digestible. Easily digestible.
Em Schulz: More relatable.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, relatable.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then the last thing I wanted to say, which feels a little bit like a plot twist to me, is that there are some cultures who see, who don't see others as the psychopomps, but see ourselves as the psychopomps.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Including things like, uh, Dia de Muertos where we invite the loved ones back home. A lot of people will lay bright flowers and incense and candles to guide the dead home. So that makes us the psychopomps.
Christine Schiefer: Oooh.
Em Schulz: To have them to be able to get them to cross over back to the other side for a day.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's kind of beautiful.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So everyone can be a psychopomp.
Christine Schiefer: That's why, that's why I put my...
Em Schulz: I could be a psychopomps, you could be a psychopomp.
Christine Schiefer: That's why I installed a mirror above my bed. I'm like, you what?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'd like to invite all the spirits.
Em Schulz: That's actually... What a fun tie in to the, to last week's episode of Mirrors because depending on which direction you're going in the mirror, everyone's a psychopomp. Either you're taking me or I'm taking you.
Christine Schiefer: That's what am saying. I'm put, if you're not putting sheets all over the mirrors and reflective surfaces, you're a psychopomp my friend. Sorry to say it.
Em Schulz: Or a psychopath for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Or a psychopath or both. Or both.
Em Schulz: They are not mutually exclusive.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And, uh, that is psychopomps.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow, Em, that was cool. I don't think I ever knew what a psychopomp was, or at least I didn't remember.
Em Schulz: I've never heard the word.
Christine Schiefer: Oh really?
Em Schulz: I've never heard the word. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I definitely heard it, but I just was like, wow, that sounds intimidating. So I don't, I'm not gonna know. I just don't know. Umm, good job.
Em Schulz: And little did you know, maybe you were the psychopomp all along.
Christine Schiefer: That is the most beautiful thing you've ever said to me.
Em Schulz: Maybe it's all about the psychopomps we meet along the way, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Wow. We were the psycho, psych, psychopath. Okay. I need to stop.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We were the psychopaths all along. Okay.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, Em, I have one of the weirdest stories ever today. Uh...
Em Schulz: [1:15:35.3] ____ gasp. I'm so excited.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a mystery and it's like much more lighthearted than...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Literally every other story I've covered. But it's still a creepy mystery. So I'd like your input. And I, I, I'm curious because it does, you know, touch on more of your, it like kind of is a gray area between your and my topics a little bit.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like it's sort of, kind of, some people stretch it into the paranormal space. Umm, so I wonder if you've heard of it. It is the disappearance of Steven Kubacki.
Em Schulz: Not even a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Wow. Okay. Wow, wow, wow. This is gonna be...
Em Schulz: I do wonder a lot of times, like when it comes to you telling a mystery or like some like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I, I always wonder at what point are you gonna give up and you're just gonna start reporting on things like Clifford, the big red dog and his missing bone and it's like, but I guess that is a crime.
Christine Schiefer: Today's the day.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: A crime is a crime. Okay?
Em Schulz: A crime is a crime is a crime, Clifford. Okay?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Clifford, my pal. All right. This is the disappearance of Steven Kubacki. Uh, Em, I'm so curious to hear your thoughts on this. Okay? So I'm just gonna jump right in.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Steven Kubacki was born in 1954 in Chicopee, Massachusetts, which at the time had about roughly 50,000 residents. When Steven was 6 years old, his family moved to South Deerfield, Massachusetts, and that's where he grew up. His mom worked as a secretary at the University of Massachusetts. His dad worked at a tire factory. They were pretty, uh, lower middle class, like just your classic modest family in Massachusetts, like pretty standard American Fair. And around middle school, Steven found out about, umm, a high school nearby called the ex... It was not called the exclusive, but it is an exclusive school called the Deerfield Academy Preparatory School, which...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like something out of a cartoon.
Em Schulz: Sure does.
Christine Schiefer: Deerfield Academy Preparatory School. And just for shits and gigs, he decides to apply. So he does... This sounds like something, Em, would do, by the way. He does. And he gets in and he is like, oh, okay. I guess I go here now. And, uh...
Em Schulz: That's how I got into Boston University. Thank you so much.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, literally, it's such an Em thing. Meanwhile, I'm over there like obsessively researching every like, footnote on the website and like copy and pasting it into a document like a lunatic.
Em Schulz: When my mom found out, 'cause we did the like, orientation or whatever, and my mom came with me, and, uh, they said that only 15 people got, get into the program every year. My mom looked me dead in the eyes and went, "How the fuck did you pull that?" [laughter] And I went, I don't know, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: In front of everyone.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was like, I really didn't see this coming either. I don't, I really didn't expect us to be in Boston this year, but here we are.
Christine Schiefer: It's, so maybe I got in and then the universe was like, or maybe I was like so dead set on going and like, so dedicated to my application that the universe was like, all right, we gotta push Em there too, so that they get this podcast started in a few years. And then you were like, "Hmm, I guess I'll write my name down." And they were like, "Shit, we gotta get Em into this program."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, all I gotta do is bat these brown eyes of mine and just see where it takes me.
Christine Schiefer: It worked, honestly embarrassing for me that I worked so hard to get in. But man, uh, I, uh, boy am I glad those big brown eyes did the trick, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The baby browns.
Christine Schiefer: These baby browns. So in any case, he gets into this exclusive Deerfield Academy Preparatory School, and he suddenly finds himself at this like, prestigious school that rarely, but occasionally admitted low income students like him. So most students were wealthy, most of 'em were actually even legacy like, you know, generations.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: Who, who had gone there. Umm, and so he graduated from there, but he, he has just since described, he had described himself as somewhat rebellious and like skipping class and stuff. So he wasn't like dedicated to his schooling there. He just happened to...
Em Schulz: Is this just a story about me? What's going on?
Christine Schiefer: It is you. I think it is. I know, every time I'm saying something out loud, I'm like, oh boy, here we go again.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, then it kind of changes because then he went to a Christian college called Hope College in Michigan in 1972. Umm, but while he's there, his studies are like kind of all over the place. He's pretty scattered. He changed his major several times. Now we're getting back to Em again.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, changed his major...
Em Schulz: This kid kid has ADHD. I just know it. I just know it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh hardcore.
Em Schulz: Just know it. He's got a Ukulele in the corner. He claims he's gonna sell some electronics next week. I don't know. He's not good though.
Christine Schiefer: He has one of those things, those sweaters you had that had all the weird stripes, remember those things?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. The, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Those like fucking college kids sweaters.
Em Schulz: Oh, the, well, they're called bajas. Yeah. I, I truly lived in mine. My entire college closet was about 20 different Baja sweatshirts and nothing else.
Christine Schiefer: I've like, any college picture I've seen of you, you're wearing one of those. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was totally, I mean, obviously I was friends with all the stoners and the, the parters and the not go to schoolers and the stay up till three-AMers, so.
Christine Schiefer: And the sororities and the fraternity house.
Em Schulz: And then somehow in the Sorority.
Christine Schiefer: Just like all over the place.
Em Schulz: Although, well, how I got into the sorority is an interesting story, but that's, that's for another day. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you did it to me now. Okay, great. Well, I'll be awaiting that for a future Listener Episode. So he's not super focused. He changes his major several times. In 1974, he decides to go to Germany for a year and study at the University of Freiburg, where he studied psychology and even parapsychology, Em. Umm...
Em Schulz: Literally what is going on?
Christine Schiefer: What is going on? And that is the study of mental phenomena, which are excluded from or inexplicable by orthodox scientific psychology such as hypnosis, telepathy, et cetera. Mostly the things Em covers on the show.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So I guess I have a degree by now. No?
Christine Schiefer: I ge, you mu, what is up 10,000 hours? Malcolm Gladwell like, come on.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: You deserve an honorary.
Em Schulz: I atleast have my associates. There's no way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, oh, at least. At least. So back in Michigan, umm, when he'd spent a year abroad in Germany, he came back to Michigan and switched majors again. Uh, Saoirse put in here, supposedly at least a dozen times. That's how often he switched.
Em Schulz: Sorry, say that again?
Christine Schiefer: A dozen times he has switched his major. Uh...
Em Schulz: ADHD, my friend, I gotta be honest.
Christine Schiefer: Like just all over the place. And his class credits covered hugely varying subjects. So at one point he quit college and went on some adventures, traveling a lot, returning to Germany for a bit. He was back in Michigan again in early 1978 when he decided it was time to go on a solo adventure. He decides he wants to go cross-country skiing alone on Lake Michigan.
Em Schulz: Hmm. I don't know about that.
Christine Schiefer: Now... Yeah. This is where I think we all both diverge from this guy because like no, no, thank you.
Em Schulz: Like, have fun dude.
Christine Schiefer: It's, I would be like, did you know it's really cold out there?
Em Schulz: You're like alone?
Christine Schiefer: Like did you know that? Alone?
Em Schulz: I'd be like, my feet hurt just thinking about putting them in boots. Absolutely not.
Christine Schiefer: I have a bunion. You want me to go cross-country skiing?
Em Schulz: Which means one day I'll have two.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Oh, I don't have...
Em Schulz: Say it ain't so.
Christine Schiefer: So say it ain't so, put my drscholls bunion corrector on and let me watch Grim Adventures of whatever the hell. Okay. So anyway, back in Michigan, he decide he is going on a solo adventure to go cross-country skiing. Which by the way, have you ever gone cross-country skiing?
Em Schulz: I think you know the answer to that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: It's a firm fucking no.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, sometimes you and I are full of surprises that we've never known about each other. So... As I told you recently, an old episode, you claimed to have run five miles a day. So I don't know if you were some like past Olympian.
Em Schulz: Well, that was another time. That was another time. Okay?
Christine Schiefer: Now exactly. That's why I thought I'd ask. Maybe I'm open to...
Em Schulz: And... What, do you know the difference between like just skiing...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And cross-country skiing?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: What is the difference?
Christine Schiefer: Ask me if I've ever gone cross-country skiing.
Em Schulz: I don't even wanna hear the yes, but Christine, have you ever gone cross-country skiing?
Christine Schiefer: I have not, but...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I was very close to it many times because my dad and stepmom tried everything in their power to get me to go cross-country skiing as a kid. And I was like, I won't do that. I will not participate. Like I will go skiing down a hill...
Em Schulz: What's the difference?
Christine Schiefer: So cross-country skiing is like, you're skiing on like flat, like you're like pushing yourself along in the snow.
Em Schulz: So you're walking?
Christine Schiefer: But like on ski, little skis. And so you're like, it's hard work. Like, it's really, really, really tough because you're not going just downhill like gravity. Right? You're, you're going over the meadow and through the woods.
Em Schulz: So it's like, it's like ice skating but with skis.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But not fun and not fast. And it's difficult.
Em Schulz: Is there like a goal to get to? Or you're just like essentially like taking a fucking walk?
Christine Schiefer: No, you're literally just like taking a walk like in the woods. Like my family used to go cross-country skiing like out in the woods and would just like shuffle along. And I was like, why would you ever do this? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Why would you make walking harder? It's already not fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. If it, it's like where you have to like use your legs to like really move like, you know, you're not just like...
Em Schulz: Never will...
Christine Schiefer: Going down a slope where gravity will help you. You have to kind of like really use your, it's a lot of work. And I was like, I'm not interested in that. Umm...
Em Schulz: I would like to find, I, I don't even actually care to find anybody who would be able to tell me what the fun in that is. I don't care.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, like there are people...
Em Schulz: Sounds so boring.
Christine Schiefer: Who do it like, on Olympic level and stuff. It's just, it's a lot of strength. You need a lot of, it's too much. I don't have...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Any of that desire or will or strength. So...
Em Schulz: That's a, that's a no can do for me. That's a...
Christine Schiefer: Not happening. Not happening.
Em Schulz: At least downhill I don't have to do anything, you just...
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly it. At least downhill, they can put me in a little chairlift and carry me back up like, I don't need to...
Em Schulz: Better you put me in a stretcher and take me all the way home. Like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're getting home, uh, flat one way or another. Or at least on your butt.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh, I even have some of those old like, uh, snowshoes, like the, umm, those like crazy snowshoe...
Em Schulz: Tennis rackets?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So... Anyway.
Em Schulz: Is that, wait, so wait, wait, hang on. So then what's the difference between snowshoeing and cross-country skiing?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe I'm thinking of snowshoeing.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. There's no way.
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine? I've just gotten like, blasted on the internet. Umm...
Em Schulz: I mean they sound like the same thing, but you use different, different shoes.
Christine Schiefer: It perhaps 'cause I feel like it's pretty similar concept. Oh man. Now I need to figure out, uh, okay. This website says, "Snowshoeing and cross-country skiing both stimulate our minds, bodies and souls." I'm like, that's not helpful to me at all. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Nope. And it's also wrong. Hang on.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's also a fucking lie.
Em Schulz: Stimulate my soul?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Stimulate my soul? Please explain. Okay, hang on. Umm, what is cross-country skiing?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, cross-country skiing is more difficult to learn is more athletic and rigorous. Snowshoeing...
Em Schulz: Snowshoeing also seems not fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think that's maybe I'll... You just.
Em Schulz: You just like you're walking without being able to use your ankles.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think that's, yes. I think that's more like just for, for funsies. So maybe I'm not thinking of cross-country skiing through the woods at my house. I think I'm thinking of snowshoeing through the woods at my house., which I also...
Em Schulz: No matter what, it sounds like the same level of entertainment, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I feel like, uh, I don't wanna participate in either one, so... You know what? I apologize for the confusion, everyone, umm, I'm sure some people...
Em Schulz: But you still didn't really even answer it, but let's just keep it that way. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, honestly, I'm sure some people are screaming at me. I apologize, I don't know the difference, I just know my stepmom does both of them and I refused to do either of them, so, you know, here we are. So...
Em Schulz: Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. So he wants to go cross-country skiing on, by himself on Lake Michigan.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right.
Em Schulz: Alone. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Alone. And so it was February at this point, and, uh, much of the lake was covered in a thick layer of ice. Now, this is a note that Saoirse put in which I was very grateful for, because I don't think I realized the extent of my lack of knowledge on the topic of the Great Lakes. Umm, do you know much at all about the Great Lakes? 'Cause I have a lot of fun facts.
Em Schulz: Mm, I know there's five, seven? Seven?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, well, that's not one of, that's not one of my fun facts... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, let me teach you all there is to know. There are five Great Lakes.
Em Schulz: That's... I don't even know... Oh, there are five?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But then hydro lot... Whatever. I don't know. I'm not... I'm not gonna answer any more questions. Okay?
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Q&A over. So...
Em Schulz: There's, there's Lake Superior, there's Lake Erie?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, now what we're doing...
Em Schulz: I don't even know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, those are true. Those are both true.
Em Schulz: Lake... Five Great Lakes.
Christine Schiefer: There's a Huron, I think, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah, and then there's O-Ontario and Michigan.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. I think it spells Homes, isn't that what it was?
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Yeah, that sounds right.
Em Schulz: Okay. Anyway, that's, that's... If you wanna know the extent of my knowledge, that... I half knew that fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Huron, Ontario, Michigan, Erie and what's the S one?
Em Schulz: Superior.
Christine Schiefer: Superior. Wow. Okay, so, anyway, I have some more fun facts for you here, umm...
Em Schulz: Great, I could use more than half of one, that'd be good. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: More than one wrong fun fact. Okay, got it. So, the Great Lakes region actually experiences some of the most extreme weather conditions in the entire world. Okay?
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Several cities along the lakes rank among the coldest cities in the United States, with temperatures plummeting to record lows like negative 40 degrees Fahrenheit...
Em Schulz: Ugh!
Christine Schiefer: Which, another fun fact, is actually the same in Celsius. Negative 40.
Em Schulz: Oh, that is a fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Umm, also, the Great Lakes are fucking huge, uh, Lake Superior, for example, contains 10% of all surface fresh water on earth.
Em Schulz: Holy shit!
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: I haven't even, I still don't even know what that means. My brain can't process that...
Christine Schiefer: I don't either, but wow, it sounds like a lot. Uh, so the lake sizes and depths create conditions for unique climates and weather phenomena, like the lake effect. And the lake effect, uh, if you're not from around this area, which I am a couple of hours away, so I definitely know about it, but it generates enormous clouds that carry severe weather inland, creating the Snowbelt.
Em Schulz: Snowbelt? The snow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, the Snowbelt is the reason I will never ever ever live in Cleveland... Normally, I understand people who live there. It is a cool town. Love that for you. It's too cold. That and Buffalo, I'm like, those are like such extreme cold and snow and I just want nothing to do with it.
Em Schulz: Fair enough.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, they're in the Snowbelt. So anyway. This is basically a multi-state area in the path of the lake effect, with the Snowbelt, umm which gets pummeled by snow storms blown inland from the lake. So for example, in 2001, Montague, New York near Lake Ontario, in six days, got 10 and a half feet of snow.
Em Schulz: Oh shit!
Christine Schiefer: Uh, like that's outrageous, and that's not even a record in the area. So it's just like another fucking day, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh. Wild.
Christine Schiefer: Lake Michigan also creates something that I'd never heard of called pneumonia fronts. Yikes.
Em Schulz: Nope, don't know what that is.
Christine Schiefer: And... I don't wanna know... A rare phenomenon where temperatures near the lake suddenly drop dramatically in under an hour. So, I think when I researched it, it said the temperature can drop more than 16 degrees in one hour.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Like think about that. It's like, it's 50 degrees out, and then like a few minutes later, it's massively dropping. So pneumonia fronts are phenomenon that happened here, and it reminded me of a phenomenon we learned when we were in Salt Lake City...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Or we're supposed to be in Salt Lake City, called a bomb cyclone, and everyone in the area was like, "Oh yeah, another bomb cyclone." And we were like, "I'm sorry, what are you saying?"
Em Schulz: No, never heard that word in my life. I was like...
Christine Schiefer: "The fuck are you saying?"
Em Schulz: The fact that... Those are two bad words and then they're put together and everyone was like, whatever. And I was like, "Do we have to be on a plane...
Christine Schiefer: Everyone's like, "Why are you making that face?" And I was like, oh... [laughter] F... Okay, I'm the idiot. I guess. Uh...
Em Schulz: Imagine if I just called it like a fuckin'... I don't know. Grenade hurricane. And everyone's like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Whatever, whatever, whatever.
Christine Schiefer: There's a scythe...
[pause]
Christine Schiefer: Earthquake.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What happened?
Christine Schiefer: I was trying to come up with another weather phenomenon with the word scythe, and I couldn't think of it.
Em Schulz: Scythe?
Christine Schiefer: Scythe...
Em Schulz: Uh, scythe tsunami.
Christine Schiefer: A scythe tsunami, that's it. That's the one. Umm, so, oh wait, interestingly enough, my next bullet is about ice tsunamis, so.
Em Schulz: Oh wow!
Christine Schiefer: Pretty fucking close.
Em Schulz: Wow, look at me go.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, they have... Okay. So this area literally has something called... Ha... Pneumonia fronts, ice tsunamis... I mean, it... Like, it's just, why? Like no, I don't like any of it. So, these pneumonia fronts come in, they also experience ice tsunamis, which are also called ice shoves, and what happens is that extreme winds push enormous sheets of ice and boulders inward onto land, that can destroy houses.
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: Why can't they just like bring a fucking bowling ball of snow in and just pommel your house down? Okay. This is like normal life up there. Are you guys okay up there? I feel like this is just all so bad.
Em Schulz: It sounds... I don't... Imagine, okay, so I know, when I lived in Virginia, which does not compare to any of the shit, umm, we had like random snow days and like now in California, a lot of kids get fire days, which I, was new to me, 'cause I didn't know about that shit...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: Until I got here, and, uh, now I'm wondering how many different types of days do the kids have over there?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And they probably don't get any fucking snow days, they're like, oh, come on. Unless there's a pneumonia front coming through...
Em Schulz: They're like, they're the only kids who I think like can say that they actually like walked uphill both ways in an avalanche or something...
Christine Schiefer: Literally!
Em Schulz: And I have to believe them.
Christine Schiefer: And they had to wear snow shoes because how the fuck else would you get uphill both ways?
Em Schulz: That's how they're also good at the cross-country skiing.
Christine Schiefer: I'm understanding now, okay.
Em Schulz: It's just actually self-preservation, it's survival not fun.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm sorry, I hated on everyone who cross-country skis. I think, uh, you know what, I do, as I get older, as I age and my bunions get worse, I do appreciate the, like aesthetic or the experience of an outdoor nature walk in the evening. Like I love... I get it now, uh when I was little, I was like, "No, don't ever make me leave the house." But I can understand the enjoyment of like walking outside, but...
Em Schulz: I'm not there yet, but I can't wait... I can't wait for the day.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and, uh, you know... And I say that... It's more of a theoretical thing. Right? Like, will I go do it? Probably not. If I'm forced...
Em Schulz: You know what, I'm... So far. I'm cool with a... Well, hang on, let me be specific, I'm cool with a sitting on the front porch with a cup of tea, watching...
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: Watching something for maximum 20 minutes to a half an hour.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it... But I wanted to be specific because sitting outside implies that I'm cool with picnics and I fucking hate a picnic.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not... No, no, no. No no no.
Em Schulz: I don't want that. Don't even try to... Let's go leave our comfy couch and sit in dirt. No, thank you. Umm but...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We can eat snacks right here. Okay?
Em Schulz: It's like the fridge and air conditioning is here, why on earth do I go into a hot space where I have to change clothes to do it and then sit on the grass...
Christine Schiefer: With ants.
Em Schulz: Yes, and what if it's wet outside and now I've been... Now I'm in a mud puddle?
Christine Schiefer: No, literally, you sit down, then you're like, "Shit, I have to pee." Well, sucks for you.
Em Schulz: Sucks for you and now you have to wait 'cause God forbid, you get into your car, you have to load everything back, you have to drive all the way home, you have to find the bath... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: But I like sitting on a porch during a rainstorm, that's as far as we've gotten.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: That's as far as we've gotten. Maybe a bonfire.
Christine Schiefer: I love a screen...
Em Schulz: Love a bonfire.
Christine Schiefer: Think about a screen and porch on a some, summer storm night...
Em Schulz: Ugh. Ugh... But...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that that'll, that'll... That's that's me.
Em Schulz: But to go outside just to move my body, I, uh. Pfft! Like just a no. Just no.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I get it. As, as someone who's been trying to really, umm, work on ways to, like habits to like better my experience of the world, I've been trying to go on a little more walks, like even with Geo, just like around the block, and I'm like, I can see how that is refreshing and whatever, even if you don't wanna do it, but not when it's fucking 2 degrees out or negative 40 for that matter.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so in any case, uh this is a very unique and fascinating place to live, and I mean, if you live there and you love it, like fucking more power to you. Okay? I'm not hating on you at all, like I'm so impressed when people... Like I can't even think of living in California anymore 'cause I have just such a fear of earthquakes, but like, it's a great place to live. I'm not shitting on the area in general, I'm just saying not for me.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so in any case, uh, it's wild to live there. It's like very unique, very, umm, intense, obviously, very extreme weather conditions sometimes. Umm, so, you know, he decides he's gonna go do this, uh, cross-country skiing on the Great Lakes on Lake Michigan. Now there are actually indigenous peoples who lived in the area, the Anishinaabe, and they have ice fished on the Lakes for a very long time, umm, and that's, you know, they were clearly able to make, umm, make the area work for them, and you know, ice fishing, I always found really fascinating. Umm, and today, approximately 600,000 people live along the Lakes in the US and Canada, so they must love it. Okay? I'm not... Listen...
Em Schulz: They're eating it up over there, not me though.
Christine Schiefer: They're loving it, and I'm happy for them. Okay? It's all I'll say. Steven was basically just one more person in a very long line to decide to venture out onto the ice in February of 1978, but Steven didn't come home from his multi-day trek and his family, of course, understandably, got worried and raised the alarm. On February 20th, he was reported missing.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And authorities pretty immediately launched an exhaustive search and rescue effort to track Steven down, especially obviously knowing February in that area can be extremely dangerous and every second counts to finding somebody. And, uh, in one of the police reports as they're trying to track him down, one friend interestingly said, "Oh, Steven had a couple of girlfriends in Europe, maybe he went over to Europe and just forgot to tell anybody," umm, but that didn't end up being the case, but...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Saoirse put a funny note that's like, "I guess it would be a fun way to be remembered that you had three European girlfriends., uh... "
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know, at least that got in the news, right? Like, he had three...
Em Schulz: At least, it was like, everyone kinda high-fived for a second there. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "Oh hell yeah, bud!" [laughter] Umm, so that didn't end up being the case, but anyway, searchers scoured the frozen lake on foot by snowmobile, even by helicopter, and of course, their own safety was at risk. Uh, the ice was covered in snow, which means that hazards like thin ice cracks, holes, and deep crevasses were not able to be seen. So you wouldn't know if you were walking over a patch that could crack right underneath you. According to post-colonial ice records that started in the mid-19th century, Lake Michigan is actually, another fun fact, the only Lake of the five Great Lakes that has not frozen over completely ever.
Em Schulz: Ever?
Christine Schiefer: At least since... At least since the mid-19th century that we know of.
Em Schulz: Wow. Huh!
Christine Schiefer: So it has gotten close, but it's never hit 100% surface ice, which means there are places to fall into the freezing water, which could be fatal...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously, especially if you're by yourself. So hope faded as time went on with no sign of Steven, and a few days went by and his family started to fear the worst, and that is when the searchers discovered his skis and poles abandoned on the ice. Now, his skis were set up in sort of like a cross-motion, like he had stuck them in the snow...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And hung his backpack on top of them.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And shortly after that, they found his backpack nearby as well, and it was a total mystery as to why he would abandon his equipment, umm but they did see a trail of footprints. So there was a 200-yard trail of footprints in the snow, which stopped suddenly as if he had just vanished into thin air.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: There were no other prints, so it was hard to consider foul play like that somebody kinda came up at him or was walking with him...
Em Schulz: Or like an animal chased him or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh right, yeah. Or an animal got to him, exactly. And so with no answers, authorities decided that the most likely scenario was that Steven had walked away from his gear to investigate something and then fallen into a crevasse and drowned beneath the ice. Like and it...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't be the first time, it's a really dangerous area, and again, you're going solo, you know? Umm, so they thought that must be what happened. And with the way, even though they couldn't see you know, cracked ice, uh, ice can move on the lake, especially over, over days over time, and perhaps there was an opening he fell into that had shifted and was not visible anymore. So with that kind of being the conclusion, Steven was officially declared dead in a tragic accident at just 23 years old. They closed the case, umm, newspapers reported on it, all further searches were called off and his family began to grieve.
Christine Schiefer: It was a total shock to everyone who knew him. Uh, Hope College held a memorial service for Steven's fellow students to mourn him and the school granted him an Honorary diploma. His friends and family tried to grieve and move on, but they faced that same issue that we see a lot, uh, with missing persons cases where there's just not that closure of being able to bury a body or being able to say goodbye one last time, or you know? Or at least just know what happened.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's sort of like this big hanging question mark, and they had to live with that. They couldn't figure out why did Steve an abandoned his equipment and walk away, like what would he have been looking at to take off his skis and wander in a different direction without his backpack? Umm, my thought was like, maybe he saw a cute bunny rabbit, I don't know, like I feel like a lot...
Em Schulz: Well, my thought was like, what if maybe he like wanted to go pee or something, and he just like went to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's fair.
Em Schulz: Kinda dash off.
Christine Schiefer: I guess, I guess you wouldn't have to like take off all your equipment though, right, like your backpack? I mean may...
Em Schulz: That's true. Especially, if you're... You have a male body, you could probably just...
Christine Schiefer: Exact, I mean exactly.
Em Schulz: Whip it out on the skis.
Christine Schiefer: Like I don't think you need to even like remove anything, but, yeah, I mean they...
Em Schulz: What if he needed to go number two?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay, that's a good point, Em. That's a really...
Em Schulz: I wouldn't wanna do that on skis.
Christine Schiefer: No, I would, but just for shits and gigs. You know? I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Literally for shits.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Literally, just for the shits. No, no, no, I, I didn't think of that. That's a great point. So like maybe he had to go poop, okay? Maybe he saw a cute bunny rabbit is what I still think, and he was like, come here, bunny rabbit.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if he wanted to like eat it or something, but maybe... I don't know, there's a lot of reasons he might have kind of just wandered away for a minute and maybe could have fallen in or, who knows what. Umm, the other thing was, how did he end up under the ice when searchers didn't find any openings near his tracks and the snow was undisturbed by major ice shifts? But again, you know, could be explained that maybe it just so happened to be covered up in a way they couldn't see it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And also Steven, as his family claimed, had the skills and experience to avoid such accidents, like he went on this trip solo, but not unprepared. He knew the dangers of it and he was pretty well-versed in this kind of a solo trek. So people thought, was it foul play, was it suicide? There were just so many questions that his family had to live with because the case was closed, but others began considering it a cold missing person's case because they just could not accept the drowning explanation. Uh, some people thought maybe this was like a, a cult thing.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe this was, umm, a foul play, somebody, he he met up with the wrong fellow snowshoer and got kidnapped, you know? Who knows? But there was no way to really find answers, and they may have been left wondering forever, except that on May 5th of 1979, which was 14 and a half months after Steven's disappearance, a driver picked up a hitchhiker who asked for a ride to the nearest payphone. And Steven's dad was at home in Massachusetts, about 700 miles from where his son had disappeared 15 months earlier, when he got a phone call from his son Steven...
Em Schulz: Oh, what?
Christine Schiefer: Who said, "I'm alive."
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: So, what happened?
Christine Schiefer: Not only was he alive, he was right nearby in Massachusetts, like I think it was 20 miles from, 40... Sorry, 40 miles from his dad's house...
Em Schulz: Did he glitch in the Matrix, what the fuck happened?
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, "Can you come pick me up?" Yeah, he's like, "Can you come pick me up?" So, Steven was legally dead like without question, it had been 15 months he went missing on the ice, case closed, his... Family was trying to move on, and then all of a sudden he just pops right back up not only in their lives, but 40 miles away, like in town... Like nearby, in Massachusetts. And this is what happened. His father was like, "Where the hell have you been?"
Em Schulz: Yeah, what the fuck, dude? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Dude, you really scared the shit out of us, okay?
Em Schulz: Like the whole town grieved, like, what is going on?
Christine Schiefer: Wow. This was national news. So he asked his son, "What have you been doing for over a year while everyone mourned you and had services and tried to move on?" And Steven said, "I have no idea."
Em Schulz: [1:46:09.3] ____ gasp. He did glitch in the Matrix, didn't he? He had to.
Christine Schiefer: So according to Steven, he could not remember anything from his absence. He had woken up in a field in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and this was 720 miles from where he had been skiing.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: He had been skiing in Ma-Michigan and he woke up 720 miles 15 months later in a field in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, 720 miles away.
Em Schulz: And do we know when he woke up, did he know how much time had passed or did he think like a day went by?
Christine Schiefer: He did not. He thought it was only a matter of hours or days. He had to find a newspaper to tell him the year.
Em Schulz: This guy fully was abducted by aliens.
Christine Schiefer: Is this not so nuts?
Em Schulz: I mean, he was standing... Everything looked fine, standing in the middle of the field, your footsteps all of a sudden go missing in the snow, and then you show up in a random field? Is that not aliens?
Christine Schiefer: Right? 15 months later. And the other weird thing was that he showed up, you know, 720 miles away from where he went missing, but really close by to his aunt's house.
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: Which is also odd, it's like maybe did he know subconsciously? Yeah...
Em Schulz: He remembered something about an address? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like did he recognize the area? But also, you know, he woke up in a meadow, which is so random, like he didn't wake up on a bus... You know, on a bus bench or like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In a, in a motel room, like he woke up in the middle of the field, which is so weird. Umm, but there's a little bit more to this which they're clues, but honestly, in my opinion, they just add more questions than they answer. But in any case, uh, what he told his family was that his memory ended on Lake Michigan 15 months ago, and then began again when he woke up in a meadow in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, about 40 miles from his dad's house. He was wearing clothes he'd never seen before...
Em Schulz: Ugh, what?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And he had a backpack that he did not recognize. Inside the...
Em Schulz: It's almost like the aliens black-eyed kids-'ed him and like they were like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "I don't know, you had something that looked like this, let's just put it back on you." And it was just like...
Christine Schiefer: You...
Em Schulz: Pulled from a wardrobe of other abductees.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and it was... This one was like Paw Patrol and he's like, "Wait, my backpack? My backpack was SpongeBob, you assholes. Where, where does this Paw Patrol backpack come from?" So, yeah, he wa-wakes up with this backpack he's never seen before, and inside the backpack is a random series of maps that he did not remember owning...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: As well as some hitch-hiking signs, essentially like where he would write the names of different towns. Presumably... He said, 'Presumably was, I was hitchhiking.' Like you know it said like, uh, Salt Lake City, like and he would stand along the side of the road in the '70s and get, get a ride. So, the maps, umm, included Sacramento, San Francisco, Reno, Nevada, Chicago and the state of Utah.
Em Schulz: What? And so, if he was hit... And if he...
Christine Schiefer: And it, it basically insinuated that's where he had been traveling.
Em Schulz: And if he was hitchhiking those locations, someone knew who he was, if they were giving him rides.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Or somebody... Yeah, like you mean somebody had met him, like somebody would've, had face time with him.
Em Schulz: Right, somebo... In a year and a half, he had to have talked to somebody.
Christine Schiefer: Or at least made some acquaintances. Yeah, you'd think so. So, very, very odd. Uh, in addition to these maps, he also had $40 in cash, new glasses, which I'd like to know if those glasses were the same prescription as his old ones...
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause that, I, I'm curious about that... Uh, sneakers and a t-shirt from a marathon in Wisconsin.
Em Schulz: I, first of all, there... I would... There's nothing I would try to forget harder than running a marathon, but like hike... If I had a shirt from a marathon, you know, that's the first thing I'd be telling everyone about, there is no forgetting that. I wonder if...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: I wonder if, umm, I don't know... My, my very, very first thought in the beginning of all this was like, could he just be like faking it to like get out of like getting in trouble for being gone for that long?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, that's definitely a major theory.
Em Schulz: But also like, I mean, there were no security cameras back then.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: No like CCTV to track him, 'cause otherwise it'd be like... Where... Where did the skis go? Do we know where the skis went?
Christine Schiefer: So they, he didn't have any skis on him. So those were just the ones that they had found. Remember? After he disappeared...
Em Schulz: Oh right.
Christine Schiefer: They found his skis and backpack.
Em Schulz: Oh right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So they had those in their possession, the police, umm, or maybe they had given it to the family by then. But on your note of like no security cameras and it's hard to follow up on things, people actually went to... I think the the, his mother, I believe, hired a private investigator to look into this. And the private investigator went and asked for... Went to that marathon's, uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah, and asked for the roster or something.
Christine Schiefer: Planning group and ask for the roster, and so I was listening to a podcast called, uh, Red Web, which I'd never heard of, and basically their name is like the red string, like, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh nice.
Christine Schiefer: They cover like online, like conspiracies and fun things like that, it was actually a very fun show, I can't believe I've never heard of it, but they covered this case and they brought up some really interesting questions like, you know, going to the marathon, asking for the name, but then they also made a point of like, if he was in some sort of fugue state, like maybe he signed up with a different name.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then one of the other hosts was like, "Well, then maybe they should go through and find whose name doesn't match any real person, you know, maybe that's... "
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: "The person that signed up as him," but also, then another host made a good point of, well, it was the '70s, you probably could just walk up and be like, "I wanna be in this marathon... "
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, who knows like... I-it's like, I don't think things were as strictly monitored in the '70s as they are nowadays, umm like you could probably just join a marathon and get a t-shirt back then without...
Em Schulz: And also probably back in the '70s, I don't know if they were really keeping rosters after the day of. Won't they just throw that thing away and be like, yup?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well, and they did have the roster and they did give it to them, but like his name was not on there. Like his, his legal name.
Em Schulz: If they show his pic... I would, I mean, I don't know how in-depth this investigator was allowed to be, but I wonder if they... How many people were on the roster and could he show each of them a picture of the guy, and like, "Oh, does he look familiar to you?"
Christine Schiefer: That's a great question. There are so many things where I'm like, "Man, I wish somebody would have asked this or that or the other," and I don't know if they did ask, but I don't have the answers...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause that, that's a great idea, like to, to ask the people who participated like, "Hey, do you recognize this guy?" or the people who're doing... Who are doing sign-ups. You know?
Em Schulz: And, and also his, umm... To do a marathon, it's not like he was kidnapped and then taken hostage, like it sounds like he really was just living life like it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, a marathon is not something that you're usually forced to do in a show like... I don't know, 48 hour... I've never watched that show, but like one of these like crime shows, like running a marathon seems like torture, but in a different way than being abducted. You know?
Em Schulz: Yes. It does see... It does seem like he was just kind of just had... Still had free will and just no awareness, but he clearly had enough aware... It reminds me kind of like, did he like maybe he previously fell somewhere on the mountain and no one paid attention, like him hitting his head on a rock? And then maybe he had that situation where that one guy walked around before he died and like he was like doing dishes and shit...
Christine Schiefer: [1:53:30.1] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Like with a major head injury...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And nobody noticed.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, but like it sounds like he...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Well, one that's interesting you say that 'cause one of actually Steven's own theories has been, perhaps he fell through the ice and his body went to a state of shock and like elicited some sort of fugue state, and like, he, he went into such shock that he wandered off. I mean, and perhaps, another thing the Red Web podcast mentioned too, was like maybe, you know with hypothermia where you kind of enter this state of being so hot, that you strip your clothes off...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like perhaps he was taking his clothes off, he needed clothes, he found this t-shirt, this marathon t-shirt at like a thrift store, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's so unclear like how he ended up with it, umm, but there is another little caveat to that, interestingly, because you said like, "Oh well, you don't usually just run a marathon, you know, like out of the blue."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that's exactly the point. So here, uh he did, I think, like one interview ever on this, one.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And it was, the week he was found, and this is the rare interview, uh, I found... So I went on Newspapers.com and, and searched for this, and this is from 1979, it's the Waterville, Maine Morning Sentinel. And the article says, "'I have some really vague feelings,' Steven Kubacki, 24, said in a telephone interview Sunday from his father's home here. 'I have some running shoes. I feel like I've done a lot of running.'"
Em Schulz: [1:55:06.1] ____ gasp.
Christine Schiefer: "'I also have a marathon t-shirt from Wisconsin. I don't know how I got it.'" So he feels like he's been doing a lot of running, which seems like... What does that mean? But also...
Em Schulz: Yeah. What a weird thing to say, but I guess maybe you can, like, your body feels sore or like...
Christine Schiefer: Saoirse was like maybe sore calves? I was like... But my thought actually was like, maybe he has like some subconscious memories like, oh, I remember like running shoes, I remember running a lot. You know, maybe...
Em Schulz: Or it might even be like as the person used to run five miles a day, like when you do get into running...
Christine Schiefer: You have the stamina?
Em Schulz: When you do get into running like you very... Like it becomes muscle memory very quickly, so maybe he tried...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Running recently, and then he was like, oh, I'm like much better at this than I remember, and it was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what... And then the Red Web folks are like, they should do a test, like time him, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: See if his strength has improved. I don't know, and they said he did lose three pounds in the time he was gone, maybe from running, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: But his memory, he says, I just have vague feelings, which is kind of creepy.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: I have vague feelings that I've done a lot of running. Which is like, ooh, it's kind of creepy.
Em Schulz: That's so weird that like he can, he can almost tap into his subconscious.
Christine Schiefer: Right? I want him, I want him to do a hypnosis, like a regression.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, he said the last thing you remembered was feeling cold and scared of being lost...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And that's the last thing he remembers before waking up in the grass and...
Em Schulz: So maybe he, maybe that's what he, umm, also took all of his equipment off or maybe he just needed to like stand somewhere and try to figure out where North was or something?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yeah. And somebody, they also said that, you know, maybe he wandered off to get his bearings, like he was lost, he was afraid of getting lost. Wandered off to get his bearings maybe could he see Chicago from where he was standing? Like could he orient himself, and maybe he fell, maybe he hit his head, maybe he fell into the water, umm, and his body went through shock and he somehow survived...
Em Schulz: This sounds, this sounds really stupid, but like what was that other case we covered where like all of a sudden a fucking owl was involved. It's like... Is there...
Christine Schiefer: A staircase?
Em Schulz: Like could a vulture or something have grabbed him?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. This is so weird, the Red Web literally brought up the staircase and I went, that's random, and then you just brought it up with the owl.
Em Schulz: I mean if, if like a big ass bird just saw like one tiny little thing moving around by itself and without any defense like, could have picked him up as food and then dropped him and gave him a fucking head injury. Like you know?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if it would have been able to pick him up.
Em Schulz: I feel like I could have at least gotten him to the top of a tree and then he fell or something, like could have grabbed him for a second and then let go of him.
Christine Schiefer: What is it? Like a thunderbird? I don't think birds can pick people up.
Em Schulz: I don't know, birds are kind of freakish-ly strong. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Babies, they can pick up, I think, but...
Em Schulz: I don't know, I have no idea. But my first thought was like, if it's, if it's not an alien abduction, which I'm not totally voting that out, like, but like if he's, if he's walking and then all of a sudden his feet just vanish, it's not even like there's signs of him falling...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see.
Em Schulz: Or there are signs of him running in another way, or signs of someone behind him or an animal, his features go away, like that's the air my friend, that's where you go, like either a UFO beams you up or a bird picked you up. Like you couldn't go anywhere else unless you are Superman and you fly away.
Christine Schiefer: Well, the thought was that he fell like into, you know, the ice cracked underneath him.
Em Schulz: I feel like I'd like to see the actual footprints because what I'm envisioning...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Is perfectly clear shoe prints in like which, in which case it doesn't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think it's a little more blurred than that. I don't think it's necessarily...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Like a very... But I don't know, 'cause I don't have photos of it, and I'm not really clear on how the footprints like how abruptly they stopped.
Em Schulz: I mean, like you say, it could have been a crevice and like he fell, but maybe caught myself, but head is, hit his head on the way down, so he was able to physically get...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Himself down, but he, the damage had already been done to his brain.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it's either...
Christine Schiefer: [1:59:17.6] ____.
Em Schulz: It's either a head injury, like guaranteed, in my head, it's either a head injury, aliens, or a big ass bird. It's one of those, right? There's no other options.
Christine Schiefer: I think you're the first person to bring big ass bird into it. But I love it. Umm, so he said the last thing he remembered was being, feeling cold and being scared of getting lost in the freezing darkness. And then the article goes on, "I was lying on the grass in a meadow when I woke up," Kubacki said, "I didn't know where I was, I was wearing clothes that weren't mine. I started going through a pack, which I assumed was mine, and I found maps. I would guess I was hitchhiking. I didn't know what the date was until I walked into town and got a newspaper." So totally like just erased his memory. Umm, a newspaper published a heartwarming photo of Steven beaming as he embraced his father with a tag line reading, Reunited. Obviously the entire country wanted answers. Had Steven escaped kidnappers? A cult? Was he a fugitive? Was it a hoax? Like what was going on? Was it aliens? Ancient, Em and ancient alien theorists say yes, it was.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Steven, unfortunately had no answers. He insisted again and again, he did not remember a single thing from the previous 15 months. So reporters seemed to think if they just had a little time with Steven, they could get a little more insight, crack him a little bit People suggested he go see a psychologist, but he said there was no point. He was totally sound-of-mind, sure he was missing 15 months of his life, but he's fine, he's thinking clearly, he was not interested in seeing a psychiatric professional, so he did not. He also said, you know what? I have no more information than you do about where I was, so sorry, there's nothing to crack and he shut down any further interviews or conversations. So that kind of does take away, it's frustrating, but it does take away the like skeptical side of he's doing this for attention or something to like... 'Cause clearly he was not participating in any of the interviews.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So Kubacki told a reporter that he believed his blackout was caused by exhausted and exposure, and that he would see a doctor for that, but he would not see any psychiatric... Seek any psychiatric health. Umm, and in one quote, he said, "My father was going to sign over the house to me. I had three courses at school, had no trouble, I left a romance in Germany, there was no trouble with girls, I had a job lined up with the Holland Sentinel newspaper," that was kind of his explanation of like, I didn't run away on purpose, you know?
Em Schulz: Right, like I had things going for me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Umm, so...
Em Schulz: Imagine the girlfriend finding out that he's still alive after 15 months and has like probably already moved on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, what the... But apparently he had three of them, so I'm sure...
Em Schulz: He's fine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He's fine. Umm, so Kubacki ended up not taking that job, but he actually had been awarded a Bachelor's degree in absentia from Hope College because he had vanished and they had given him like an honorary degree...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Thinking he was dead. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like in memoriam degree.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And so, apparently, this is pretty wild, but it's kind of just a side note, fun fact. Apparently even the detectives who investigated his, investigated his disappearance had doubts that he had actually drowned from the start, and so they actually sent his dental records to Chicago to see if Kubacki might be among one of John Wayne Gacy's unidentified victims.
Em Schulz: [2:02:49.7] ____ gasp. Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: And like obviously, he was not, but apparently the way that the scene had like left was so unusual, as you kind of mentioned with the footprints, that they thought maybe he ended up as like the unwitting victim of John Wayne Gacy, you know? That's how confusing, confusing this all was. So as you can probably guess, he became extremely overwhelmed by the attention, Steven declined all further interviews, and after a few days of national coverage, the press sort of gave up and Steven's story lost momentum and people simply moved on. Uh, like I said, he had been given that honorary diploma when he was missing, and apparently the dean's first inclination was to let him keep his diploma, but then they took it back and said, no, you didn't earn it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's so fucked up. It's like you haven't been through enough, so.
Christine Schiefer: They said you have to... It's up to you... They said you don't have to do anything that it's up to you if you wanna finish your degree. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God, that's so mean.
Christine Schiefer: And to be fair, he only had a couple of courses left. Umm, he had enough credits to graduate in 1979 with a Bachelor's degree in German studies, and that was the only one he had enough credits 'cause he had switched so much...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he just went with it, and a few years later, he earned an MA in linguistics at Ohio University.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Then he attended a PhD clinical psychology program in New Mexico, where he studied philosophy and psychoanalysis as a Fulbright fellow in Germany...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And then... Yeah, became a doctor... Like a psychiatric doctor, a psychiatrist and eventually a professor and a Psychology Department Chair. So like, and he apparently has said, yes, I recognize the irony in this that I refused to go see a psychiatrist in the '70s and now here I am. Yeah. Umm, so I thought that was pretty interesting. And, you know, Steven has led quite an impressive career academically in varied disciplines, but he continues to be most famous, not for his accomplishments, but for his crazy disappearance.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Although his story has faded away, umm, and, you know, it happened in a time before internet forums, it has since popped up in unexpected places. And this, I would like you to imagine being in class and this happening to you. He's in grad school, he's in a psych class, and he opens up an abnormal psychology textbook, and...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: On a chapter on amnesia and sees himself in, in the textbook. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So like it's gotta be really trippy.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And Steven, who's now, of course, an expert in the subject, said, "It is not ethical or professional to diagnose somebody at a distance." So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I agree. Like they shouldn't have said he had amnesia. This is what he had, and we put it in the book. Like, he was not diagnosed, he never went to a...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Professional, so I do find... I, I agree with him that it's not really quite okay. Umm, but then, of course, the internet came around and the story started popping up on conspiracy forums, people suggested Steven was a victim of something, I wonder if you've heard about, called the Michigan Triangle?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: No? Okay, so it's basically the Great Lakes version of the Bermuda Triangle, and I wrote, Em, please cover this...
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Because just on the basics of what I heard like overview like missing ships, uh, strange disappearances, airplanes vanishing, I mean very Bermuda Triangle, but like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In the Great Lakes area.
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. Definitely I'll cover that.
Christine Schiefer: So I would love to hear about that, 'cause you've done the Bridgewater Triangle.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, interestingly... Oh you know what we should check? If the place he woke up was in the Bridgewater Triangle.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it was in Massachusetts.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Maybe a little Pukwudgie picked him up and carried him away.
Christine Schiefer: Ahh! You know how they like... Maybe they all carried him like a whole...
Em Schulz: Yeah. One little...
Christine Schiefer: Like Gulliver's Travels.
Em Schulz: One finger at a time, they all, they all got him.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Pukwudgie crossing, umm, Bridgewater Triangle. And what's the town? Pittsfield, Massachusetts.
Em Schulz: No, no, I don't think it's in there.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I tried. If you guys know, let me know.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait, maybe it is. Listen, if I just crack something open, you just let me know everybody. Okay.
Em Schulz: Wide open everybody.
Christine Schiefer: Wide open. Uh, wow.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay. I'm gonna say yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think maybe, maybe it is.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna say yes with absolutely no certainty.
Christine Schiefer: Ancient alien theorists and Em say yes.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So speaking of ancient aliens, umm, he was featured in an episode of Ancient Aliens that I watched last night. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, cool.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh, they barely mentioned him. I watched the entire hour-long program and was like, am I mistaken? And then like after one commercial break, they were like, also, this guy disappeared one time, and it was like 30 seconds and that was the extent of the mention. And he wasn't in it, it was just like his story, like I watched it to think like, oh, maybe he talks as a talking head in this program, but no.
Em Schulz: Right. But someone just talks... Just narrated it.
Christine Schiefer: About him. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I did learn a lot about black holes that exist on Earth...
Em Schulz: Ooh!
Christine Schiefer: Allegedly. So you know? Time is worth...
Em Schulz: Got it. I'm on it, I'm on it.
Christine Schiefer: Worth the watch. Okay. So others began leaning more toward natural explanations, umm, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because everyone else is saying alien abductions, portals to other dimensions, black holes is the Ancient Alien theory, accidental time travel, but some people said, you know? Maybe this is a true crime story. People have considered cults, mafia ties. I mean clearly, the police were considering John Wayne Gacy. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Some, some thought maybe PTSD-induced amnesia from a traumatic event like an attack or a kidnapping, but either way, meanwhile, Steven continues to thrive in his career as a clinical psychologist, and he is one of the most notorious missing persons cases in history, who's not... And he's not even missing. Like that's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The craziest part. He's back.
Em Schulz: I'm back baby.
Christine Schiefer: And it's so frustrating because he's back but he, we still don't know what happened, which is like, oh man.
Em Schulz: I don't know, I feel like, part of me feels like maybe there is something true crime or again, aliens, because for him to be so... For him to have feelers like, oh, I think I was running, I think I've been blah, blah, blah. And for him to be like, I don't wanna know the rest of what happened.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like he shut it down.
Em Schulz: It's like he knows... I don't know if it was true. But it feels like if he could kinda have little moments like that where he has his feelers on...
Christine Schiefer: Like an inkling.
Em Schulz: It sounds like he knows something really traumatic happened...
Christine Schiefer: That he doesn't wanna go...
Em Schulz: And he does not wanna face it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, that's a really good point. He's like, I have these vague recollections, but like I don't wanna go to see a psychiatrist...
Em Schulz: I mean he...
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna talk about it.
Em Schulz: He's literally like the department chair and a doctor of psychology. Like he knows how incredibly useful that science can be, and he still wants nothing to do with it. His whole...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Fucking... The industry, the field he's in, he does not wanna partake in it.
Christine Schiefer: We;ll just wait.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: What happened... Recent updates.
Em Schulz: Uhh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And these updates have occurred since most of the sources that, you know, I've watched and and read about. So, so this is pretty new. All right. So in any case, he's a clinical psychologist, he's become this notorious missing person's case. For a long time, he said he ignored all of the internet era media about him, but he started working with an author named Dylan Quarles who hosts The Missing Enigma, missing persons investigations, and when they linked up, Steven was floored by the interest in his case. He told Dylan in an interview, "I was actually amazed how much was out there. I couldn't believe it was out there." According to Steven's website, the hashtag Steven Kubacki has been viewed more than 2.3 million times on TikTok, and more than 6.5 million viewers have watched the many YouTube videos featuring Steven's story. So for decades, Steven maintained that he had no memory of what happened in those 15 months and the world was left to speculate, but recently...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Steven has announced that he plans to release a book about his disappearance. In fact...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He says he has recovered his memory from that time.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: He says his story involves the following. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Is it all of them? Is it big ass bird?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Is it big ass bird, aliens, hit his head, everything?
Christine Schiefer: What if it's just the following; one big ass bird?
Em Schulz: Well, then I'd say, yeah, we knew dude, we knew.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He said the story involves hallucinogenic drugs...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: A revolutionary organization, a terrorist in training, spiritual experiences, alternate realities, and the French Foreign Legion.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And now, I have a quote from Saoirse where I la, I guffawed, I laughed out loud because Saoirse wrote in its own bullet, "What that could possibly mean is anyone's guess."
Em Schulz: Yeah, right.
Christine Schiefer: And then I put "Saoirse." [laughter] Like what the fuck are you talking about?
Em Schulz: Okay. So I actually have had another theory that, I mean, it's just like such a like a, like a flippant. I didn't even say it because I thought that it would have been cancelled out, but my other thought besides like bird or aliens on how his feet just left, my thought is like, what if like a helicopter picked him up, and I know that's stupid, but they would have had like evidence of like if a helicopter was in the area or people would have been able to say like, oh, I dropped down a ladder for him. But like my, but, if we're talking like terrorist in training, maybe it was like a spy mission and he Mission Impossible-d up.
Christine Schiefer: [2:12:47.3] ____ gasp. Oh.
Em Schulz: Or, or terrorists in training maybe someone did fly up around and like he got like pushed into crevice and then they flew away, I don't know. But my thought, I did think helicopter for a second, but I feel like that could have easily been, you know, figured out. But...
Christine Schiefer: You know, I'm, I'm thinking helicopter, but wouldn't the helicopter blow the snow over his footprints away?
Em Schulz: Not if the helicopter was really up there and someone on a, one of those fall out ladders climbed down.
Christine Schiefer: I think even with a fall out ladder...
Em Schulz: You think?
Christine Schiefer: Isn't there still quite a bit of... I mean maybe not.
Em Schulz: I mean, you know me and all my helicopter experience, I...
Christine Schiefer: That's true, I should not... I should be bowing down to your knowledge, I don't know why I'm second guessing you at all. Uh...
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. So hold on. Can you run through that again, there was...
Christine Schiefer: I would love nothing more.
Em Schulz: Okay. And I will say drugs sounds obvious, that feels...
Christine Schiefer: Check.
Em Schulz: That feels clear to me. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Check. I think we all kind of thought in the back of our mind that was a possibility.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Hallucinogenic drugs, a revolutionary organization, a terrorist in training, spiritual experiences, alternate realities and the French Foreign Legion.
Em Schulz: So spiritual... Spiritual realities? Spiritual...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, spiritual experiences and alternate realities.
Em Schulz: Alternate realities. Both of those also feel like they could just be drugs.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, I was gonna say, a lot of that sounds like it could be lumped in with hallucinogens.
Em Schulz: Like, it sounds like he was just, I mean it was also the '70s, he could have just been on acid, you know? Like and had, thought he went to an alternate realm and had... Even today, a bunch of people open parentheses, men, take acid and they're like, "My life has changed," but really they're just like...
Christine Schiefer: I I know the meaning of life. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but really they just like experienced apathy for the first time.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and I feel like if you take by accident, if you take, umm... Not Ketamine. What is the, uh...
Em Schulz: Shrooms?
Christine Schiefer: No, it's the one...
Em Schulz: Ketamine.
Christine Schiefer: That people occasionally take too much of, uh, and then like have like a psychotic break.
Em Schulz: Ecstasy?
Christine Schiefer: No. It's the one that starts with a D.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well...
Em Schulz: Man, I took so much Da... Man, I was so fucked up on Da... Da... Ah, I need more of the Da...
Christine Schiefer: Eva, do you know?
Em Schulz: Da...
Christine Schiefer: I need more of that D.
Em Schulz: Drug... I need more of my... I literally can't think of a drug. I can't think of anything that starts with D.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, sorry guys. Jack, you can delete all the bla, bla, bla.
Em Schulz: You, you don't want that?
Christine Schiefer: I mean I do. I just don't know if anyone else wants it.
Em Schulz: I really can't think of anything like...
Christine Schiefer: DMT!
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: DMT. So I've heard stories where people who have either been tricked into taking too much DMT or have been, uh, like accidentally dosed incorrectly, umm, or who've taken just too much DMT, umm, have had like breaks from reality that can last a very long time.
Em Schulz: Mm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like very long time, like months. So, you know, perhaps he was on a drug and it, and that would explain why he came back and he said, I don't wanna talk about it 'cause like probably doesn't wanna talk about being on drugs in the woods and...
Em Schulz: But the drugs make sense for the memory, but the feet thing, I, I do think it's a big ass bird or an alien. I, I can't, the, I'm stuck on the... I'm stuck on the... Or maybe it was a combo of drugs, he fell, hit his head, and the drugs and the hitting his head at the same time really rattled something in there and he couldn't remember for a long time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it could be that too. I'm looking up, umm... Yeah, that's why people say like portals and all this, but I mean I just, I'm looking for any information on the footsteps and I just can't get a better understanding of...
Em Schulz: That's the, if I were an investigator, that would be the thing that keeps me up at night is the damn... Those damn footsteps.
Christine Schiefer: The footprints in the snow are like really confusing.
Em Schulz: I feel like the memory part can so easily be explained for me either as a head injury or drugs.
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: That part, I'm like not even worried about, it's like how the fuck that he get from the middle of...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The snowy field to nowhere?
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no, it was... So that's the thing is, he was walking toward the edge of the lake.
Em Schulz: Oh, right, and then he would have fallen in. Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So the weird part, it says, "The weird part is... " This is from ultimateunexplained.com. "The weird part is the 200-yards set of footprints in the snow that led to the edge of the lake. The prints abruptly stop at the lake edge, which led authorities to the conclusion that Steven had fallen in the lake, got caught under the ice and drowned." Like perhaps he had stepped onto the lake and it had cracked, you know?
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so that's, that I feel like could make some sense. Umm, yeah, but still, I don't know. I don't know, but as Saoirse said what that could possibly mean is anyone's guess. Umm...
Em Schulz: I guess we'll find out when the book comes out, but then also that makes me think like did he ever actually come up with the... I'm not trying to be one of those people, I swear to God, but just the, the thought does linger for a second where I'm like, now that he knows that people are still talking about it, is there like, is this a money situation, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you'd think maybe, but let me finish the bullet points 'cause it gives a little more information.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so this revelation has led some to speculate that Steven never lost his memory at all, and this was all just fraud. Like he just was...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: You know, perpetrating fraud. But, of course, others still hold, hold on to theories about cults and domestic terrorism, especially with like the byline he gave. Umm, and the hints sound like there was definitely more crime involved than aliens or time travel, but unfortunately, we do not have a release date for the story because even though the book is finished, it has yet to be picked up by an agent. So...
Em Schulz: Oh, really?
Christine Schiefer: We, we don't know when it'll be published, if it'll ever be published, umm, but the name of the book is, The Disappearance, "What Really Happened to One of History's Last Unexplained Mysteries."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, that's that story, and, you know? I watched a few... He finally did an interview. I think they said like his first interview in 45 years, umm, but he, the Youtuber said he, they had a very strict rule that he could not, uh, discuss, he would not discuss what happened, like the disappearance and stuff. So the, the interviewer had to be very like tip-toeing around anything...
Em Schulz: What do you even interview him about then? Like isn't that what the...
Christine Schiefer: I know!
Em Schulz: Isn't that what the interview would be about?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I didn't watch the whole thing 'cause it was right before we recorded when I found it...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and it said, here, see, it was on the Missing Enigma is the YouTube channel, but, umm, it gives more insight into h-him as a person and like his experiences in life in general, umm, and the interviews with him and the author that is helping him write this book, so...
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: You know, if you're interested, you can go check that out, but, uh, I just don't know... I just don't know. It's just very weird.
Em Schulz: You know, I think this is one of the first times that we've had... Not one of the first times, but it's one of the only times in And That's Why We Drink history where both of our stories were pretty light-hearted.
Christine Schiefer: I was actually thinking that. I was like when you started yours and I was like, wow, this is kind of a weird, like they kinda hold hands and fit together.
Em Schulz: What a fun little kid friendly And That's Why We Drink episode, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: I know! For once.
Em Schulz: I talk about the Grim Reaper.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. Who knew that would be the light, most light hearted of all our shows?
Em Schulz: I know. Uh, wow, good story, Christine. You know, I love a mystery, but you know, I hate a mystery too.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Same here, but I'm, I, I do like a mystery where they say, guess what? Answers might be coming soon. So...
Em Schulz: I do wish that his, uh, byline to his book was like the French Legion, the terrorist organization, and a big ass bird, I feel like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. Em's never gonna let go of that theory. You could probably prove to Em in every scientific way that it's impossible, and Em would be like, "Yeah, I see your point, but I'm pretty sure there was ass bird there."
Em Schulz: I mean like his memory is still patchy. Like I know there was bird there. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it must be.
Em Schulz: Well, thank you everybody, for listening to another episode of And That's Why We Drink.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Drinks.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: And if you'd like, for some reason, more of this, you can join Patreon and go check out our after hours where we keep talking, but it's somehow less structured than this, so, umm, go ahead and do that...
Christine Schiefer: We'll probably... We'll probably discuss some alien stuff 'cause I wanna talk about this whole abduction, I'd probably Google whether a bird can pick up a person, so, you know, those questions and more will be answered.
Em Schulz: We also should have mentioned at the beginning of this episode that we are on tour or we're about to go on tour, so please go get tickets, uh, if we're in your area. We will be very close to, umm... Every location we mentioned today. We'll be near a bunch of triangles, and...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And come see us.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait, why don't we look... We'll look that up in the after hours. We'll look up the, uh, the triangle...
Em Schulz: If our live show in a triangle?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [chuckle] yeah. If our live shows are in the triangle, but also if that fits town, fits whatever place is in that triangle.
Em Schulz: Okay. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
