[intro music]
Em Schulz: Christine's shoulders are here. Just kidding. They're clothed, everybody. I'm just as disappointed as you.
Christine Schiefer: Hee-hee-hee. It's a possum...
Em Schulz: But she is wearing a horrendous possum shirt.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, from you that you bought me.
Em Schulz: I did buy it. You know, I'm probably...
Christine Schiefer: You bought one for me, one for you.
Em Schulz: Fond of possums more than anybody else on this show.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're the biggest advocate for possums and you don't even know. You don't even admit it.
Em Schulz: I do it... It's one of those things where I... It's out of sheer love, because it's certainly not out of understanding, but you know, it makes you happy and...
Christine Schiefer: But your love for us, not for the animals.
Em Schulz: To make you... I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: Not for the possums.
Em Schulz: Like gross patriarchy, but you know the saying, "Happy wife, happy life". I don't... I don't know what the platonic version of that is, but if I keep giving you possum stuff, you're in a pretty good mood, which means I'm in a pretty good mood.
Christine Schiefer: Happy, happy partner, happy, howdy partner.
Em Schulz: Fartner.
Christine Schiefer: Happy fartner, howdy fartner.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: That's what they say.
Em Schulz: How was your Thanksgiving, Christine? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Um, hi. It's good. It was fine. It was okay. It was great. I mean, it was fine, but then Blaise got sick, and then Leona got sick and then um, Blaise is just catatonic in bed and I've been just running around, um, trying not to have a mental breakdown. So, you know... Oh, I got a weird text on Thanksgiving. Wait. I forgot. This is what I was gonna tell you. I even wrote it in my phone, "Em, I got a weird... "
Em Schulz: I got a manic energy today.
Christine Schiefer: It is. I'm... I apologize for that, um, but I can't change it, so uh...
Em Schulz: No, no, no. I'll, I'll keep it together so you can be the main character and then we'll swap.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you so much. Okay, here's the text I got. This is not a joke. On Thanksgiving, I received, like in the evening or at night time, I received a text... Oh crap. Let me find it. I even prepared for this to be my why I drink... Here it is. "Hello, I'm Walt's great-grandson." Like, okay, I'm gonna show it to you without... 'Cause the phone number is in there too. And you know how like sometimes you'll get a text from um, like a spam and it's like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Let's ride our bikes together." Okay. I don't know. I get weird spam texts sometimes, right? So, normally, it's like either... It's like a greet... This is like an iPhone, like someone's iPhone sent me this, which is unusual.
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And this is... I'll show it to you with... I'll try to cover the numbers, so you don't see the number. But it basically says, "Hello, I'm Walt's great-grandson."
Em Schulz: Yeah, I see it.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what?
Em Schulz: And you didn't say anything?
Christine Schiefer: I think I said... I think I just like put a question mark on it, and then they never responded. But like usually, if I respond to those...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: [0:02:44.6] ____ gonna say that.
Christine Schiefer: The spam ones, they write back like...
Em Schulz: Wait, what's the number? Can I text them?
Christine Schiefer: Sure. I'll read it to you.
Em Schulz: Although, what if this is like a listener who... What if it's a listener who like...
Christine Schiefer: Then why do they have my phone number? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like if they found your phone number, then I directly... Like that's walking right into a trap, isn't it? Can you *67 a text?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe just WhatsApp them. Well, no, that won't work.
Em Schulz: WhatsApp. WhatsApp. WhatsApp. No, that doesn't work.
Christine Schiefer: Give me your WhatsApp. I don't... Maybe it will.
Em Schulz: Does WhatsApp work? Does it show my number?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess it does, huh? Eva, can you text this number for us?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, wait, wait, wait. I have a... I have a fake email. Can I email a number?
Christine Schiefer: No... I don't know. Maybe?
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I'll...
Em Schulz: I wish I had a fake number...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: [0:03:35.1] ____ that we all... What if we all go down together?
Em Schulz: Do you have like... Do you have like Google Voice phone number?
Christine Schiefer: We, we had a Google Voice number in February of 2017, so I doubt that it still exists 'cause I don't think we ever use it. Um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Eva! Eva texted us. One of the things she wanted to discuss as like a business topic is whether we need a business phone number, which is hilarious. Our business phone number.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm like, maybe we do need it just to prank call people, order pizzas and also text Walt's grandson.
Em Schulz: Wait. Well, obviously. Okay, hang on. I'm going on my White Pages account.
Christine Schiefer: Also, great-grandson. Like, what are you talking about?
Em Schulz: Could, could it actually be Walt from your original, your, your...
Christine Schiefer: Hell no. Now I'm freaked out. But also, could it be... Even if it is spam, like that's a very weird thing to send me of all people.
Em Schulz: What's the phone number?
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Alright, elevator music when you tell it.
Christine Schiefer: It's...
[music]
Em Schulz: I'm searching. I'm searching. I'm searching. Uh, it's a landline, okay, so this is already old information, from Huntsville or Decatur.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I hate to break it to you...
Em Schulz: So do you know anyone...
Christine Schiefer: But I've already done a... I've already done a big search online for the number um, and I, I couldn't really find anything useful. Um...
Em Schulz: Interesting. Interesting, interesting, interesting.
Christine Schiefer: And you have to type in Walt. I mean it's probably spam, but the weird thing is...
Em Schulz: It's too weird.
Christine Schiefer: They used the name Walt. It's really weird, right? Like even as spam, it's like, you didn't know what you're doing. This is very specific. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Hang on. Okay, hold on. If it's just... If it's uh... I'm...
Christine Schiefer: But then why didn't they respond?
Em Schulz: I'm gonna risk it. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What are you gonna say? "I'm Walt's great-grandson"? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah, what do I say? What do I say?
Christine Schiefer: Say, say, "Hey, is Walt available?" I don't know. Say, "I have the, all the money from Walt's will. Do you want it?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "I'm the executor of Walt's will." Say that.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm the executor...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What if this really is the great-grandson of someone named Walt and we're just like fucking with them? [laughter] That would be terrible.
Em Schulz: Also, by the way, I just wrote, "I'm the executor" and it autocorrected to, "I'm the executioner".
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm the executioner.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Now, if I received that text, I think I would have called the authorities. I'm not really sure, but I would have been a lot more alarmed. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I... Like that's kind of telling. Like, that does... If, you know...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm the executioner. Is that what I write? Do I change it? Wait. I'll write, "I'm the executioner," send, and then I'll do, "Oops, autocorrect."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm the executor.
Christine Schiefer: Oops. LOL. Autocorrect. Um, is it, is it an, is it an iPhone, or is it showing...
Em Schulz: It's an iPhone. No, no, no, it's Android. It's Android.
Christine Schiefer: See? Oh. So maybe they changed... Maybe they blocked... Maybe it's... Maybe it's spam. It's probably spam.
Em Schulz: "I'm the executioner. Oops, autocorrect. I'm the executor. Is... "
Christine Schiefer: Oops. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "Is this Walter's family?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: "Is this Walter's family? Trying to get a hold of a great-grandson."
Christine Schiefer: Wow, you're... [laughter] You're taking your role very seriously as the executioner. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Of his, of his, of his descendants.
Christine Schiefer: Will? Descendants.
Em Schulz: That feels... That feels more lawyer-y, right?
Christine Schiefer: Execution. Oh no, you already said that.
Em Schulz: It's like, "Oh, the grim reaper's texting you." Okay, anyway, um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean really, if I had received that text, I'd be a lot more alarmed. But also this is a spam artist. Is that a word?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Spam artist? No. Scam artist.
Em Schulz: I mean, they're scam artists, so...
Christine Schiefer: If this is a... Okay, well, if this is a spam artist, uh, TM, TM, TM, then they deserve to be scared a little bit, okay? So...
Em Schulz: There's one guy who um, tried spamming me or spam artist, if that's what we're calling it, and I...
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: Uh, pretended I was in the mafia and that he had the wrong guy and he shouldn't be talking to me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And now...
Christine Schiefer: Didn't somebody else try to spam artist your, your grandparents and say they were like you or something?
Em Schulz: That was a long time ago and my grandpa did not fall for it and pretended he was the chief of police. Um...
Christine Schiefer: See, you guys have something... Now you're the executioner. So this is like clearly a family pattern. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I told this one guy, he said, "Hey, I'm something, something, something." I forget what he said, but it was very obvious that it was gonna turn into a whole thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I was like... I, I was like, I pulled Big Tony or something, like, "You got like... You owe me money." Or something like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Big Tony. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Big Tony [0:08:16.4] ____. Um, and now once a week, he sends me... He does not quit. This happened back like during...
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: Like at least a month ago. Once a week, he now texts me the emoji of him giving me the middle finger. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That's how you know, that's how you know you've really done it. You've won.
Em Schulz: That's our whole relationship because I haven't forgotten you, middle finger, and that's...
Christine Schiefer: You know what the worst part is, that's kind of also our relationship, so I feel a little bit like, that's, that's a little weird that we're so... That they're such, such similar vibes. Um...
Em Schulz: I know, I know.
Christine Schiefer: But love and hate, you know, really close together, so uh... Wow.
Em Schulz: I know. So...
Christine Schiefer: Um...
Em Schulz: Why do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: So that's... Oh. I got that scary text in the middle of the night that said, "I'm Walt's great-grandson," and I was like, "Oh, okay." And then I couldn't text you 'cause I was like, "I have to tell Em on the podcast." [laughter] So I've just been living with this internal fear, you know.
Em Schulz: Uh, I mean, yeah, I do actually feel bad if it is Walt's, uh, grand... A real Walter's great-grandson.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, too late now. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Whoopsies. Um, but anyway, okay, well, that's a good reason to drink. It's certainly on brand. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, I figured, right, I figured it's at least like, um... It's content. Uh, oh, I... This is what I wrote. I responded, "Walt who?" and then they just never responded, which I'm like, what kind of spam artist sends you a text to say, "Hey, I'm reaching out," and then you say, "Okay," and then they just stop talking to you? It's like, that's not like a good spam artist.
Em Schulz: Do you remember the time that um, we were together? Do you remember the time we were together and um, uh, we found out my mom was getting scammed, and so we reached out...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh my God. We translated the, the, the Nigerian and it said like, "God will curse all of your descendants," and we were like, "Oh no." [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, but it was, it was good though because, because, uh, we found out, then you reached out pretending it was my mom and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right.
Em Schulz: Then I reached out...
Christine Schiefer: And they had myocardial something.
Em Schulz: And then all of a sudden... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, anyway, we ended up finding out what he texted my mom, which was another language and it was, "I'm cursing your family," and we copy and pasted it to your phone and you sent it back to him, and then he sent you the middle finger or something?
Christine Schiefer: Then he sent me the middle finger. Yes, that's right. No, you're 100% right. Wow, we have a good track record.
Em Schulz: Why is that their like final stance? The best you can do is middle finger? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I love it though. I love that they're like... Yeah, they're like, "This will get them." [laughter] I'm like, Em and I send that to each other all the time. It's not as harmful as you think it is. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like it's, um, like when you find out what other like curse words in other languages are and it's like, "Oh, this is supposed to be really offensive," and it's probably actually really not all that offensive.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like the time we learned what "puta" meant and we were like, "Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, yeah.
Em Schulz: I wonder if they think the middle finger is like the end-all of... Like the ultimate insult.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Um, I mean maybe if I was seven, I'd probably be upset. But um, you know, now I just think, "Ha, that's cute." Um, so it really doesn't have the effect they think it does.
Em Schulz: Well, this guy, he usually sends me middle fingers on Wednesdays, so if he says anything tomorrow, I'm just gonna...
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Yeah. He's really scheduled with it. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. You guys have like a more consistent friendship than you and I have.
Em Schulz: I know. I like... Are we like flirting?
Christine Schiefer: I should be surprised. I... Are, are you... Am I being replaced?
Em Schulz: Should we... Should I do a full uh, like a YA novel about it where I actually start just like sending him compliments and then we become friends? Like, what happens next?
Christine Schiefer: Fuck, yes. Fuck, yes, 110%. Because as long as I get to cash out on some of that...
Em Schulz: Yeah, but then they're gonna be like... When I bring him to dinner, when I bring him to dinner, they're gonna be like, "How did you meet?" I'm gonna be like, "He tried to steal my money. He tried to rob me and get my credit card information."
Christine Schiefer: It's like a classic Hallmark.
Em Schulz: "But I saw something in him."
Christine Schiefer: But honestly...
Em Schulz: There was something in his eyes.
Christine Schiefer: He was just damaged on the outside. On the inside...
Em Schulz: I could save him and I did.
Christine Schiefer: "'Cause I'm the executioner," and then the title [0:12:07.3] ____ Girls. Um, it's gonna be really good.
Em Schulz: I execute bad vibes. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It was all a misunderstanding. Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, wow.
Em Schulz: He's in a silly goofy mood.
Christine Schiefer: So he was just really... Uh, good times. I love getting spam... Spam... Scammed, spammed. Um, it's a good time. So anyway, how are you?
Em Schulz: Uh, I, I don't have really uh, anything as great to follow up with. I just got back last night. Um, I've been gone since...
Christine Schiefer: Are your arms tired?
Em Schulz: Like a second... And that's why we drink. Thank you, everybody. Goodbye.
Christine Schiefer: Hello? Is anyone there?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Did I lose you? Is this thing on?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Did your internet cut out? Something must... Are you going through a tunnel?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's so weird. [laughter] I'm going through a tunnel. Uh...
Em Schulz: Uh, no, I, I just came back. I've been gone since, um like the beginning of November. We... I... It's weird 'cause I came home to me clearly frantically packing and everything before we, our flight took off. And I came home to what I remember being a very clean apartment, and I was actually in the middle of cleaning. And so I came back to like three-week-old clean laundry, just a big mountain of it on the bed.
Christine Schiefer: I love that that happens, not.
Em Schulz: So it's like I... I like... I know that I said on the way to the airport, just the way that this apartment looks, I know I said to myself, this is a future Em problem, and now I'm future Em and it is a problem.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I hate being future myself. It's like, come on.
Em Schulz: Me too. Ugh. So, um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's not fair.
Em Schulz: Anyway, now I'm in the middle of cleaning up past Em's problems, per usual.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, who did this to me? At least it's clean laundry. I mean, mine's all dirty laundry. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah, but you know what my problem is? And this is... I don't know if this is like, um...
Christine Schiefer: Let me count the ways.
Em Schulz: Okay. I... I don't know if this is specifically an...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, I'm going through a tunnel.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Is that how that works? I don't think so.
Em Schulz: If you... Anytime you wanna just evacuate a conversation from now on, "I'm going through a tunnel. I'll be right back."
Christine Schiefer: "I hit airplane mode." "Oh, sorry, tunnel. I don't know. Bye."
Em Schulz: Sorry, I, I'm, I'm standing in front of you, but I am on Do Not Disturb, so um, you'll have to talk, talk to me later.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, and then I turn around and look at Eva and I go, "Hey, what's up?" and just [laughter] totally block you on like...
Christine Schiefer: Just delivered quietly.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It says red. It says red. Um, but also, I was going through a tunnel. Um, I don't know if this is exclusively an ADHD thing, but I... When it comes to folding my clothes, it really is... I know folding clothes is like hard for most people, especially if you have some like neurodivergence. It's like weirdly the hardest task you could ever do.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's good to know 'cause it's, it's the worst and I can't do it. And I don't do it.
Em Schulz: It's the worst. But I've caused more problems for myself because I have to hang all of my shirts. So I can't just like throw them into a drawer. I can't even just fold them and put them in a drawer.
Christine Schiefer: You have to hang them?
Em Schulz: Every single shirt I own is hung.
Christine Schiefer: Why? Why?
Em Schulz: Because we just... We live in an apartment. We don't have enough room. And we share a dresser.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So um, there's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, dressers are hard. I just bought two more and I still don't have enough room. And to be fair...
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: I bought them from an, an estate sale. So that's my, my fault.
Em Schulz: Stop it! Why again? More?
Christine Schiefer: That was gonna be why I drink, but then Walt got involved. So I was like, "Well, fine." Um, so I was like, I'm gonna tell you...
Em Schulz: First of all, if you're going, if you're gonna keep up this behavior, Christine...
Christine Schiefer: I am. Next?
Em Schulz: What do, what do they look like? How much did they cost? What's the backstory behind them?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they are beautiful.
Em Schulz: Are they haunted?
Christine Schiefer: They're gorge. They're gorgeous. Probably, yes, considering I got texts from Walt's great-grandson right after I bought them. Um, maybe they're connected. Probably not. Um, no, they're beautiful. They're Victorian. They're from like the late 19... Or sorry, late 1800s. Um, and they're these gorgeous wooden dressers and they... One was $82...
Em Schulz: Where did you put them?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, in my bedroom. Um, one was $82.
Em Schulz: You have three dressers in your bedroom?
Christine Schiefer: Yep. And one... [chuckle] Like one's like a small one, right? Then one's just like my normal one. But we don't really have a closet. Like we don't have... You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: We have like the opposite situation. Our closet is literally like, it's, it's very confusing and boring. But um, yeah, we, we have to share dressers for like all our sweatshirts and clothes. Um, and so we have... Yeah. So I bought two new dressers and they're... Listen, they were cheaper than anything on like fucking Wayfair, but they're beautiful and they're um, they're, they're...
Em Schulz: Few questions.
Christine Schiefer: Probably haunted. Yeah. Oh, and they have little keyholes and they came with the keys.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's fun. You never get the key too.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: One of them has a secret drawer.
Em Schulz: That one was worth the money.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's hidden behind a panel. Super cool.
Em Schulz: What are you gonna put in there? Your baby?
Christine Schiefer: My, my mini secret. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know why my first thought was, was just like, oh, something small. Um, yeah, what are you gonna put... You have to put something in there. You can't just like have secret panel and not...
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, but you can't know what it is, otherwise, then the secret won't come true.
Em Schulz: Oh, I don't like that. Okay. Well... Okay, my other questions.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: What are you using each one for? Like please tell me the secret panel one is for your coziest PJs or...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, this is not... This is gonna sound like I'm making it up, I'm not, and I was never gonna tell anybody this, but I'm going to tell you though...
Em Schulz: But... Okay, but you won't tell me what's in the secret panel. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm about to, but don't tell... But don't... But I'm only telling you.
Em Schulz: It's just between us.
Christine Schiefer: Just between you and me. Um, so we have a, we have a sponsor, [laughter] which I'm sure you received the same gift basket...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You see the gift...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Now... Yep. And what are you about to tell me?
Christine Schiefer: And today... So today, we had a... So once a month, we have people come like help clean the house. Like we have somebody come clean the house. And I was like, "Well, these... " Our new sponsor sent us this wonderfully amazing, gigantic glittery gift basket of sex toys and lube and all sorts of stuff. And I was like, "Woah!" So I put it in my bedroom, okay. And so I like open it, there's glitter everywhere, but I like open it, whatever, and they're like all over the place 'cause I'm like, "Woah!" Okay, to be honest also, my mom was over and she's like, "What is this?" and I was like...
Em Schulz: See, I would have just handed the basket to my mother and been like, "Happy birthday. Just go... "
Christine Schiefer: I almost did, and then she said, "Ooh, I could have fun with that," and I said, "I'd rather jump off a bridge. So I'm not giving this to you." Um, and so then I opened it all up and it was all over the place. And then the cleaners are coming and you know I do that classic mom thing where I'm like, "Shit, I have to clean for the cleaners, otherwise, they can't vacuum the floor or whatever."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So I just have all these [laughter] dildos and stuff and I'm like, "Oh, I'll put them in my Victorian dresser." So 'cause it's the only empty dresser. So I jump on the drawers and um, now I'm just afraid that Blaise is gonna be like, "Oh, good, some more... "
Em Schulz: So it's your sex drawer.
Christine Schiefer: It's now a sex drawer, which like was not the plan. And um, I'm sure it was not the plan of the person in 1875 who built it and bought it as an heirloom piece.
Em Schulz: You don't know that. They had vibrators then.
Christine Schiefer: But I don't know that. That's exactly right. They could be like, "Finally, someone living out all my dreams, you know?" Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like, "Oh, it's all I ever wanted." Whatever the 1800s version of like a Fleshlight was, it could have been in there, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it could be. Uh, the 1800... Oh, I don't wanna know. If they had a hoop and stick and their own version of a Fleshlight, I don't wanna know like what was involved in the making or cleaning of that product. Um, so anyway, that's what I put in the drawer, if you must know. Okay? Alright.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And I'll prove it to you.
Em Schulz: I'm not not against that. That's fine.
Christine Schiefer: I should text Blaise, "Open the top drawer, see what happens." But he's like very sick, so he'd probably just fall over."
Em Schulz: You know what would be really funny is if you had all your... Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Um, it'd be really funny if you had all your sex toys out for display and then in your secret panel was actually like, just like a very tame book. Like, just like the most boring thing.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My Bible's in there.
Em Schulz: Like that one you're ashamed of.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, you know what, I'm glad I asked. You know, everyone wanted to know, now everyone got exactly the kind of answer they were hoping for.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, I didn't even... Like it didn't even occur to me that you would ask what's in it, and then all of a sudden I was like, "Wait." 'Cause I was like, "Oh, there's nothing in it yet. I just bought them." And then I was like, "Wait a second. This morning, I literally opened the drawer and went like this and just dumped all of the lube and flavored nipple balm into this drawer." So...
Em Schulz: Allison and I did see the nipple balm and I went, "Are we gonna use this?"
Christine Schiefer: I literally thought, I literally thought it was a gift for my daughter 'cause it came and I was like, "Oh, cute, it's all pink." I open it up and the first thing I pull out is like flavored nipple balm and I went, "Let's go play with something else." Um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, that... Well, it... I really appreciate, I do appreciate the sponsor, but also like, I'm not...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it was the best... It was such a fun... It was so fun to open, but also I was like, this doesn't need to be...
Em Schulz: It was very fun to open, but I'm also so vanilla that I was like, uh, this looks like I'm probably... I... You know, I have some pretty kinky friends. So it sounds like this is about to be uh, a Christmas extravaganza for them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's a great idea. My mom seemed really into it and I'm sure your mom would be too. So maybe... [laughter]
Em Schulz: She's gonna hear this and wonder what the fuck I'm sending her. Nothing, Mom. You can handle that on your own. But my friends are gonna handle it...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: They're gonna get free product.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm so glad I asked that question. I really thought you were just gonna say like, "Oh, I haven't figured it out," but no.
Christine Schiefer: I absolutely did not foresee this going this way, but here we are. It's too late. I said what I said.
Em Schulz: When you one day get rid of it, can you leave the picture of the girl in her hat in there?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, genius.
Em Schulz: I love her.
Christine Schiefer: Genius. I'm fucking doing that in the secret drawer. That's so smart.
Em Schulz: I apparently... I, I guess the reason I drink, um, besides having to do three-week-old laundry is for you. I think, uh, congratulations on your secret compartment.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly... Thank you. I never really realized how special it was until this very moment when you had me bring it up. So I'm very thrilled. Um...
Em Schulz: We're all very excited for you. And now I, I really hope if anybody else... If anyone else has a, uh, secret passageway sex cabinet, let us know.
Christine Schiefer: Sex dungeon.
Em Schulz: Oh, you're... You just have a very tiny one currently.
Christine Schiefer: It isn't a dungeon. It's two inches tall. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It, it can grow, am I right?
Christine Schiefer: You know what, it is a grower, not a shower. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Um, okay, let's get into this because otherwise, I really... I feel bad for everybody who wanted a short episode and like... Not that my story's particularly long or anything, but I just haven't seen you in so long and...
Christine Schiefer: I know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: We could talk about sex...
Christine Schiefer: Sex toys all day.
Em Schulz: Sex compartments, um, for, um, quite some time. So...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Okay. My, um... I have a, a 101, 101 situation for you today, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Okay.
Em Schulz: And I kind of... I'm digging the 101s 'cause I feel like it leaves a lot of room for banter, which we're clearly incapable of. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: This, this will give us a prompt since we need to practice.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta practice. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and I, I thought about this topic 'cause I feel like it's not inherently this like scary thing or creepy paranormal thing, but um, you know, I think it's, I think it's cool and I've wanted to know, so now everyone else is gonna know. So this is uh, a 101 class on mirrors.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Oh, fuck yes.
Em Schulz: And people might be like, "What? Why?" Well, because I've always heard...
Christine Schiefer: No, 'cause it's scary.
Em Schulz: One of the things I did while I was, um, at Thanksgiving, every year I end up cleaning my cousin's room with her and it becomes like a good like 2:00 AM hangout where we like watch TV and... We both have ADHD, and so we really thrive under like parallel play to like, I can't do self-care tasks, she can't do self-care tasks, so we just do them together.
Christine Schiefer: I thought we were done talking about sex toys. [laughter] Parallel play.
Em Schulz: My cousin? Please. Well, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, listen, you said parallel play and I went, "What the fuck?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No. For anyone wondering um, parallel play is an uh, an ADHD method of uh, being productive where you really thrive with a second person there to do the same work as you and it encourages you to get stuff done. So like I... And it doesn't have to mean you're both doing the same work, but just to have somebody there to kill the time with you is a huge help. So like, I would rather you sit on the bed and like hang out with me and gossip while we're folding clothes, and then before I realize it, all the clothes are hung versus me just kind of doing it by myself.
Christine Schiefer: Is done. Right. Okay, that makes total sense.
Em Schulz: Um, same thing with like studying. A lot of people will like need a second person to like sit and do their, their computer work with you, so that way you get your work done. So...
Christine Schiefer: I get that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, we, we both thrive with that. Um, and she really needed her room cleaned. And it's become this thing where every year, I show up and I'm, weird, but my version of relaxing is like decluttering and like seeing like a big task that, where you see an accomplishment by the end, before and after. So it works out well 'cause she needs her room cleaned, I wanna clean her room. And we just hang out all night and watch TV and gossip and shit. And um, I was cleaning her room, we found this mirror and I was like, "Oh, maybe I should put it in her closet." But then I was like, "I don't know, but then if it faces the bed, isn't that supposed to be bad luck?" And then...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: It kinda got me into this whole, you know, "mirror, mirror, mirror" thing. So I thought, why don't I talk about it here?
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. I'm so excited. Mirrors scare me.
Em Schulz: Okay. So...
Christine Schiefer: But I love them also.
Em Schulz: They... See... Okay. I wanted to ask what your opinion is on mirrors. Are you all about the superstitions and the...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, a little bit. I think that there is a chance that they can open you to... I think just by their nature, they can be... It sounds maybe crazy, but I think they can be portals, to use that buzzword.
Em Schulz: They do seem like an... They give me the same kind of creeps as like, um... It's like an equivalent to a doorway, like a...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like a physical doorway of like, oh, just, it goes into another space.
Christine Schiefer: Like an entry point. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like both, uh, an entrance and a dead-end at the same time, which feels odd.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. That's deep.
Em Schulz: Thank you. And for my next trick... Oh, by the way, that's my new thing.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: I don't know... I don't know why, but I've been realizing that...
Christine Schiefer: I actually really like it compared to your usual things that you bring to the table. This one I'm actually kind of into.
Em Schulz: I, I don't know why, I don't know where I learned it from. I don't know if it just came out of my own head, but any time I'm shifting gears now, I just go, "And for my next trick... " [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's excellent. I really, really, actually like it a lot. So um, for once, I approve.
Em Schulz: Do you have a bit that you do? I know we're spiraling a little bit, but do you have a bit?
Christine Schiefer: I do, all the time, but I can't think of... I'll probably do it in the next five minutes and you'll be like, "That's the one. It's very annoying." But I cannot even think about what...
Em Schulz: Just general derangement is your bit.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What? Me? No. Um, you'll probably hear it by the end of the episode. Probably every listener is like, "Yeah, it's X, Y and Z," and we just don't even notice.
Em Schulz: I have another. Probably so. I know um, with Allison, I have a bit where every time I impulse purchase something when she's asleep, when she wakes up, I go, "I've done the unthinkable," and that's...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's a personal favorite because I do the unthinkable just about every night, so...
Christine Schiefer: The unthinkable, you'd never imagine.
Em Schulz: And I act like it's a real crisis. I'm like, "Allison, I... "
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: "I've done the unthinkable."
Christine Schiefer: "This time it's... It really is unthinkable."
Em Schulz: "I bought an 80th blanket, so... "
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, actually, that's pretty bad.
Em Schulz: Okay. Anyway, for my next act, here is Mirror 101. Um, I wanted to start with a fun fact because, obviously. Uh, according to the National Library of Medicine, which I love that they're taking advantage of mirror history...
Christine Schiefer: Good, good. Cool.
Em Schulz: Um, the oldest evidence of human-made mirrors... You wanna take a stab at how many years ago the first mirror was?
Christine Schiefer: Was it in Mesopotamia?
Em Schulz: We do talk... We... You know... It was... We do talk about Egypt for a second, um, but this was in Anatolia, Anatolia, which is now Turkey.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Turkey. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And um, which I feel like I've brought up that same area quite a few times in my stories.
Christine Schiefer: Probably. It's pretty much like a, like a, like a home of, of a lot of, I don't know...
Em Schulz: Inventions.
Christine Schiefer: Humanity. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just mirrors and ghosts.
Christine Schiefer: Humanity.
Em Schulz: So uh, they... The first uh, or the, the oldest number we can find is roughly around 8,000 years ago was the first...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Man-made mirror. Um, uh, I, I don't know if you like me putting you on the spot like this, but I'm gonna try it again.
Christine Schiefer: No, I love it.
Em Schulz: Do you know what the first mirrors were made out of?
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I've Googled this before. Um, opal? Seashell? I don't know.
Em Schulz: You're... Uh, you're close. It's obsidian.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Yeah, obsidian mirror. I've heard of that. Sure, sure, sure.
Em Schulz: Which, um, obsidian, which I did not know this, maybe this is very obvious to everybody else, but obsidian is made out of volcanic glass. I did not know that. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like dark, dark, dark, shiny.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I knew it was dark, but I, honestly, I know nothing about rock science of like, oh, why is this one this color versus this color? I, I fucking know nothing about that. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Rock science. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Or was it geology? I, I really just uh...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, it's rock science.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. [laughter] Um, but yeah, I, I knew it was dark, but I didn't know what, how it got that way. But it is because when lava cools, I guess if it cools at a certain rate, eventually, crystals form. But if it cools so fast that no crystals form, you get obsidian.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, then it's... Okay, that's cool. I did not know that.
Em Schulz: So it's very fast-cooling lava. And uh, obsidian is a rock that is very fragile and it fragments easily, which makes it very easy to shape, which is why it was used a lot um, in older times to uh, build things out of, or to carve things out of. So it was used a lot, and with a lot of indigenous groups to create arrowheads or weapons in some way, because you can take one rock, hit obsidian rock, and it will carve things away, or carve things out of it.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Makes sense.
Em Schulz: Same concept with mirrors, um, they would take the glossier layers of obsidian and stack them on top of each other.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. And I think they were like very, very, very... Like this is something that's not, was not accessible to anybody but like the elite, right?
Em Schulz: People near lava? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean like the product of like an actual mirror was not just like a generic like...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Item for families back then.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, yes, it becomes a very expensive item. It was originally obsidian, and then about 3,000 years ago, so the first 5,000 years, obsidian...
Christine Schiefer: Things are slow-going for mirrors for the first 5,000 years. You got a slow start.
Em Schulz: Mirrors are, you know... Here's the thing about mirrors. They are all about that long con. They...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Are here... They said, "I've got time and we're gonna, we're gonna... "
Christine Schiefer: They say, "We play the long game. Just wait it out." Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just wait it out. Just wait it out. They go, "And for my final act... "
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then you just have to wait and wait and wait. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I know. So uh, about 3,000 years ago, mirrors are now appearing in Egypt, like you just said, Mesopotamia, like you just said, and China.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Those are the... You weirdly know...
Christine Schiefer: Good for me. I said two old places.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, hey, you know, for um... If it were a random trivia question, you would have nailed it by guessing. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right. And don't you forget it.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Many mirrors made in precolonial Mesoamerica are, uh, even by today's standards, called incredibly intricate art and marvels of painstaking craftsmanship.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Um, there were mirrors even uh, in Ancient Greece that after obsidian, they were made in Greece from very thin layers of incredibly polished metal, usually copper. Um, you just polish, polish, polish, and then keep putting thin layers on top of each other until it's essentially a full reflection. In Ancient China, it was uh, the same concept, but instead of copper, they used bronze. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Okay. I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: I like to think if I were on um, Antique Roadshow, if I saw now like a really reflective bronze, I would be like, "Obviously Ancient China." Like I would look like such a, such a smarty.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously, this is... I'd be like, "Is this... " I'd be like, "That's Ancient China," and they're like "That's not bronze, dumbass."
Em Schulz: I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, "Oh."
Em Schulz: "Maybe if it were bronze, idiot." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Idiot. Who brings a, who brings a obsidian mirror to Antique Roadshow, idiot?"
Em Schulz: I'd be like, I'd be like, "This is literally like 8,000 years old. It's crazy fragile." Um...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like this is the least sensible, sensical episode we've ever done. Like I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.
Em Schulz: Are you sure?
Christine Schiefer: But I, I just keep speaking. I'm like, "What am I... " I don't even know what I'm saying at all. Anyways...
Em Schulz: Christine, I missed you so much.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I don't know how to speak to people anymore after the holiday.
Em Schulz: No, no, no, no, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Um, people have said that they like the, the episodes where it sounds like we're on a phone call. This is it. If you wanted to know what a phone call with us sounds like, it's not good, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is what it's like it doesn't make any sense. [laughter]
Em Schulz: A five-minute conversation, don't know her. It's always been at least three hours long.
Christine Schiefer: Never heard...
Em Schulz: Okay. Here we go. So there's just reflective... Polished reflective metals was the main thing at the time. Centuries later, mirrors start being made of glass. And I don't know enough about this. Again, this is 101, not like 401. But I wonder why they didn't think of glass before. Like, did anyone even suggest it, and then at the meeting, they were like, "That's fucking crazy. Let's stick with what we know"?
Christine Schiefer: That's stupid. Um, I just feel like there was not that accessibility to glass, like you had access to... Like if you lived by volcanic rock or volcanic formations, you could probably access obsidian. But I feel like glass, don't you need to like make, make it out of sand and all this... I don't know.
Em Schulz: Is... I wonder... This... Again, about to show my true nature which is stupid, but like at an ocean, like, like sea glass, is that not...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Sea glass is when um, when like bottles and stuff break and, and then they get...
Em Schulz: And they become sea glass.
Christine Schiefer: They kind of turn into little... They look like little stones, but it's like from... I'm pretty sure it's like from an actual... Like a bottle of Heineken or something, I think. Am I wrong?
Em Schulz: Oh, so it's like man-made glass become...
Christine Schiefer: I thought so.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Should we Google it? Let's learn together. Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: No, let's just pretend we know it.
Em Schulz: "What is sea glass?" I've already typed in the question. Sea glass...
Christine Schiefer: I'm on Wikipedia for sea glass.
Em Schulz: Are naturally weathered pieces of glass, which often have the appearance of tumbled stones. Sea glass is physically and chemically weathered glass. Oh, okay. You're right. It's chemically weathered glass found on beaches.
Christine Schiefer: So it's glass like from actual man-made glass that gets turned into kind of... It like tumbles like a rock tumbler and becomes like pretty little rocks.
Em Schulz: Man, I was tricked this whole time. I just thought... I was like, "What part of the ocean is making pretty sea glass like that?"
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I thought there was something about... But I thought sand is how you make a glass. Am I wrong about that?
Em Schulz: Well, that would make sense because you put, you put like a dirt sand mixture in like rock tumblers to polish them.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right, right, right. Oh yes, you do. Okay, silica sand, heating quartz sand or silica sand. Yeah. So I feel like it wasn't something you could necessarily like really make unless you had the right... All techniques and products, I mean...
Em Schulz: All, all of a sudden I have... All of a sudden I have no idea how glass is made, and I'm like actually [0:35:56.2] ____...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Well, you need to... Well, we all know you need to heat it to temperatures above 3,090 degrees Fahrenheit. And I guess if you have a volcano, that's pretty damn hot, right? So...
Em Schulz: It sure is.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sure is.
Christine Schiefer: How hot is a volcano? How...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Wait. While you do that, I'm gonna look up what the hottest volcano ever was. Hottest volcano ever.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, it's not hot enough. You can't make glass out of a volcano because it only goes up to 12... Oh, 2,190 degrees. And as we all know, glass needs to be made at, at least 3,090 degrees.
Em Schulz: Well, okay. Wait. How hot is blue lava? There's blue lava? Actual...
Christine Schiefer: I think that's a Mountain Dew flavor. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Actual lava is red orange. [laughter] Truly blue lava, I guess, is that because like when like fire gets too hot, it becomes like a little blue on top. Is that what we're talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: I'm guessing, 'cause that's not on a Wikipedia, so it's not helping me. But truly blue lava would require temperatures of at least almost 11,000 degrees Fahrenheit.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Woah.
Em Schulz: Which is how hot it feels in my apartment when Allison turns the temperature to 74, by the way. Um...
Christine Schiefer: And that's why you have to buy 80 blankets in the middle of the night. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You said it, not me. Allison, are you listening? Uh, which is much higher than any lava can naturally achieve on the surface of the earth. Okay. So blue lava can't exist. I don't... I didn't even know that and I knew that at the same time. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "That's kind of what I thought at the beginning, but we went on a weird journey to get back to what I already thought." Um...
Em Schulz: I knew... I had never heard of blue lava because it didn't exist. And now I've been told it doesn't exist.
Christine Schiefer: No, it does exist. It does exist in Indonesia, on the island of Java. Sulfur.
Em Schulz: Okay. Is there a lava specialist who listens to this show? Can you fucking tell us what's going on here?
Christine Schiefer: Even if you're a magma specialist, we'll accept that as well. Um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: If you dabble in the earth's crust, that would be great. Um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Do you um... Let's see, if there was a... If you could make lava any color, obviously it would be on one, two, three, purple. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Three what? Oh. [laughter] I forgot what we were talking about. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But then red and blue, you could make purple 'cause of red and blue.
Em Schulz: Gasp. That's so true. Okay, maybe green then because it's extra special.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it's like... It looks like ectoplasm, I think.
Em Schulz: Never been done before, right, right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Never been done. Take that, Indonesia.
Em Schulz: Or pink, 'cause she's one of the girls.
Christine Schiefer: Pink will be cute.
Em Schulz: Probably pink. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Barbie-themed volcano.
Em Schulz: You know, Lava would be a great baby name.
Christine Schiefer: So would Magma.
Em Schulz: Oh. But you gotta be careful because Magma is like so probably gonna become a douche...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: There's no nerd named Magma. There's no one named Magma.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Obviously, we know you can't be a nerd named Magma. So that's off the table.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But like, you know like Lava, she'd go through a phase where she's like, "Call me Lav," like Lalala... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it's like... Just 'cause your name doesn't have a nickname, you can't just make one up, sorry. Um, Lava is such uh, like a... I feel like that's like a San Diego, like a beach surfer name.
Em Schulz: Lava. She for sure has vocal fry. There's no way.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, def, defo. Yeah.
Em Schulz: She doesn't go "My name's Lava." She's Lava.
Christine Schiefer: She couldn't. Like you literally can...
Em Schulz: Even if she could, she would figure out how to not...
Christine Schiefer: We'd know.
Em Schulz: In case anyone's wondering, because I also had to think it, like I did take my medication today, so I don't know what's happening, but I do feel like I did not.
Christine Schiefer: I, I did too. I actually took it like right on time also. So I don't know. Oh, God.
Em Schulz: I don't know what's happening, but I'm loving the situation happening chemically inside of my head.
Christine Schiefer: I think maybe am I too.
Em Schulz: Here's a fact that you've already said. Um, centuries later, mirrors were made of glass. That's how we got here, by the way. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh right.
Em Schulz: And because of this... Oh, I should have finished my own fucking sentence. Mirrors were expensive symbols of the wealthy elite because glass was so hard to access.
Christine Schiefer: I literally... Okay. I mean, yes, that's kind of...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, that's what we all landed upon, um, and then talked around for 25 minutes. But yes. Okay, great. So you couldn't just make glass.
Em Schulz: By the way, there is no blue lava. Let's be clear. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, you know what, magma experts, weigh in, okay, 'cause I feel like I'm right and Em is wrong.
Em Schulz: I feel like... Okay, anyway, blah, blah, blah. So um, mirrors eventually become even more commonplace, uh, only after trade routes opened up that all have mirror markets, which to me is a mirror maze that... I can't imagine anything else.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Carnival. Yeah, mirror market. That's kind of cool though. That's fun. Like if you don't have access to mirrors and you go through a mirror market and you're like, "Holy shit, I see me everywhere," like that would be really trippy.
Em Schulz: Everywhere. It would be like, like when um like Jack, Jack in The Incredibles, all of a sudden is... There's like 10 of him. But it's the first time you've ever seen that. It's like the Spider-Man meme when they're, everyone's pointing at each other.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. "Oh, you, you, you." Yeah.
Em Schulz: Imagine if you went on a first date with someone to the mirror market, and now they don't know which one's you.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. That would be so awkward.
Em Schulz: And they just run into walls. They just run into mirrors 'cause they're trying find you.
Christine Schiefer: They just run into obsidian over and over again.
Em Schulz: Ugh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Classic. Classic first date mishap.
Em Schulz: So... [laughter] So uh, trade routes open up. So mirror markets uh, become a thing. And on top of that um, mirrors become more uh, like a want because the, the wealthy have them. So all of a sudden there's this demand for them. But the modern mirror itself, the one that we know, was not popular until the 13th century in Venice, Italy. That's the beginning of it all.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: The process was created by layering clear non-colored flat sheets of glass over a combination of metals like mercury and gold, which, oh my God, gold is in a mirror? Not... Maybe not anymore.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: You know like, you know like they have the glass and then it kinda looks like all spotty, I feel like that they would put metals behind the glass to make it reflect back at you, and it looks all kind of weathered and like... I don't know.
Em Schulz: I just thought of like, of all the things that go into a mirror, gold was not on my list. Mercury also was not on my fucking list. That like can't be good for you.
Christine Schiefer: I know about the mercury. Yeah, no, certainly not.
Em Schulz: Is it... It's not still in mirrors? It can't be.
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't think so.
Em Schulz: It can't be.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, not, not in an unsafe level at least.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, so what if like a mirror shattered? Like now you have mercury poisoning? Like what happens?
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm obviously not a scientist. All I know is I've been told to not ever...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, thanks for sharing.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I just know I'm not supposed to touch mercury. I feel like it'd be weird to bring it home. And then what if everything shattered and now there's mercury all over the floor? And what if I was barefoot?
Christine Schiefer: I mean that's literally what's in a thermometer, so don't break it and eat it, you know.
Em Schulz: That's a good point. Um, okay. These Venetian glass mirrors, because they were the first of their kind and they were made out of things like mercury and gold, these Venetian glass mirrors cost a fortune and were incredibly popular among the upper class. And I like to imagine that um, there is a mirror somewhere that sat in a room with a celery vase and they both just symbolized wealth.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. You gotta believe it.
Em Schulz: You got... Well, I do. Also, I found a celery vase at my aunt's house and she didn't even know what it was. Did you know that?
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. No. Oh my God, that's kind of fun to be like the bearer of such great news.
Em Schulz: I literally felt like... I mean, I, as I'm here confused about everything I've said so far, I was um... I felt like such a history buff because I was cleaning out part of her kitchen and I was like, "Oh my gosh, look at this vase," I was like, "did you know that this is a celery vase?" and she was like, "I didn't even know that was a thing." And then I got to do the whole history of the celery...
Christine Schiefer: That's so special. Did you put it in the closet with the mirror so you could actually say that a mirror and a celery vase were in the same room? 'Cause that... You could have... Really like your, your own prediction could have come true.
Em Schulz: That's actually shoulda, coulda, woulda, unfortunately.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Next time.
Em Schulz: But um, anyway, so just like the celery vase, uh, mirrors are seen as upper class and they became so popular and so um... Again, they were still really hard to make and they only came from Venice. So uh, they were incredibly hard to get. Because of that, they were very expensive. And I guess there was some sort of kerfuffle that, you know, I... If I knew better how to do like newspaper research, I would have looked into it. But people were so desperate for mirrors that they had to write laws about who could and couldn't own mirrors. Surprise, it was the poor people. The poor people couldn't have mirrors.
Christine Schiefer: What? Yeah, wow. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, but they also had to write laws for mirror... I, I'm just calling them mirror artisans 'cause I don't know what the right word would be. Mirrorists. Um, if you were a Venetian mirror maker, they wrote laws that you could never leave Venice ever, because they were afraid that you would share the secrets on how to make a mirror.
Christine Schiefer: Elsewhere. Oh my gosh. That's horrifying.
Em Schulz: So all of a sudden they'd be like, "Well, then I quit," and now they're even harder to make because there's less people making them, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You probably aren't allowed to quit.
Em Schulz: Yeah, at that point, like are you just... Did you get trapped into a career forever? Um...
Christine Schiefer: Probably.
Em Schulz: So, as usual, limiting mirrors that way made the wealthy elite only want them more, and made other people also want them more, but they didn't even have access to it. So go capitalism.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah, standard.
Em Schulz: In the 19th century, um, where we are time traveling now, in the 19th century, a method to quickly make mirrors finally came out of Germany. So does that mean that from the 13th century to the 19th century, Venice was like the standard for a mirror?
Christine Schiefer: The hotspot, probably.
Em Schulz: Imagine if like right at the beginning of the 19th century, you finally get a Venetian mirror and then this new method comes out and it's like...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: The Germans are like, "I ruined it."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So there's this method uh, it comes out of Germany and it's essentially coating glass with a thin layer of silver, which I guess was more accessible and it was cheaper, and the glass may be, I think was thicker, and so the whole process was just more efficient, it was easier to make. Um, it really wasn't that big of a secret. And I like how the Germans were kind of like, "What? Like it's hard? Like we just let everyone have this... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's pretty, pretty classic. They're like, "Engineering, what? Like it's hard?" And I'm like, "Yes, it's very hard. And I don't know how to do math, but thanks for rubbing it in."
Em Schulz: Why have we let, why have we let Italy have this monopoly for 600 years on something that's so easy to make? Um...
Christine Schiefer: Just swoop on in.
Em Schulz: So they now have mirrors, which are much more like the standard mirror, and they became household staples, especially through Europe first, and the clear glass technique spread globally. So uh, since then we've had mirrors, and since then people have been coming up with beliefs about their power and...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: I mean, think about never having seen a mirror. I guess you've seen your reflection maybe in like water or something...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I think about that...
Em Schulz: To so clearly see yourself.
Christine Schiefer: A lot. Yeah. I think about that a lot, a lot, a lot. I don't know why, but it has always kind of bothered me. Like, what if you went back in time and you just never had... Like you just wouldn't... Like, yeah, looking in water or like a still pond or a bowl of water. I don't know. That's the only way.
Em Schulz: It feels like the best you had was like, yeah, still pond, because other than that, if there were no mirrors or cameras, your best bet was being able to afford maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Kinda oil painting.
Em Schulz: Once or twice in your life is someone painting a picture of you. And like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You have to hope that they're good enough or that you can trust what you look like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And if they, if they fuck up, they're, they're just gonna be like, "No, that is where your ear is. You just don't know 'cause you can't see, you can't see it."
Em Schulz: Like, "No, you do have a constant boogie under your little nose. Yeah."
Christine Schiefer: "That smudge is not a mistake when I sneezed. It's actually part of your face. You just can't see it."
Em Schulz: I mean, truly imagine though, like paying for an oil painting when you're like 30 and finding out that you have...
Christine Schiefer: That you're hot as hell.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What about you're finding out you're like a total uggo, you know? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well then, honestly, probably for the best that you didn't know so that you lived with the confidence, you know. You're like...
Em Schulz: There had to be like... You know how like, you know, time always is constantly evolving, or language is constantly evolving with time. There had to be like some, you know, subtle phrase back then to be like, "I hope they don't get a painting of themselves," you know, like something of like, "I hope they never find out."
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, they're not paint, paint-worthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like your friend takes you out to dinner and they're like, "I'm gonna get uh, a portrait of myself," and everyone goes, "Um... Hmm... "
Christine Schiefer: "We knew this day would come. Who's, who's gonna tell her?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like I mean, I can't even imagine. 'Cause we've seen our own reflection before we even understand the concept of mirror. I mean, we're so small. There's no...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's part of like... It's part of infant learning like to look in the mirror and...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Learn and understand. Like that's part of learning nowadays. It's crazy to think there was a time when like most people never looked in a mirror.
Em Schulz: Never. And so for there to all of a sudden be a creation that is easy to purchase, easy to create, it can be done anywhere, and it's like relatively cheap compared to the last several centuries...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean, this is the moment that people are...
Christine Schiefer: Game changer.
Em Schulz: I have to imagine if TikTok was a thing back then, there would be a trend where people were seeing themselves for the fucking first time, like...
Christine Schiefer: Even though they had TikTok, so they could really just film themselves, but they didn't think of that, so they had to wait forever. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: I understand.
Em Schulz: If, if there was a way to spread trends, I feel like that would be like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "Here's a moment," or like if anyone has ever, from like a postcard or a letter from them being like, "We saw ourselves for the first time," that would blow my damn mind. That would be so cool.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Don't send it to Em 'cause Em throws old things in the trash. Send it to me and I'll keep it forever.
Em Schulz: No, that thing... That I would keep. Like to see that like someone is discovering something that's so normalized today, that's so cool. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm glad that you think this because I think about this all the time with the mirrors. Like I've spent a lot of my life thinking about like, what would it have been like to never look at a mirror? Which makes me sound vain. I don't mean it in a vain way. I just mean like as like a self-identity way.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so I'm glad that you also have the thought.
Em Schulz: I totally... Yeah. And also... Well, okay, I know we're spiraling. I'm so sorry. Imagine like a, like a... What the beauty standard must have been then. Like you couldn't even really fix yourself if you didn't know what you looked like, you know. Like if you were... If you felt pressured...
Christine Schiefer: They didn't have like Walgreens' wart remover, you know. It's like, well, shit.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ugh. Well, anyway, so ever since mirrors have...
Christine Schiefer: Fix yourself. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know what I mean? [0:51:31.9] ____.
Christine Schiefer: I'll quote that on Reddit. "Did anyone else hear Em... "
Em Schulz: Thank you, thank you. I can't wait to get canceled over it. But um... But yeah, if people are saying like, "Oh, you have to have this type of cheek bone," and you're like, "Well, what the fuck do I have... I don't know. Like I don't know. You gotta tell me." Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, so people started having, you know, all sorts of thoughts on mirrors and if they... I mean, it was such a powerful invention that there was power behind it already and different cultures...
Christine Schiefer: It probably felt magical almost.
Em Schulz: Yes. I know this is like a stupid comparison, but I've said it before, the first time I ever tried VR, I like cried. I couldn't under... I like, my brain... No human brain was ever meant to see that.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like you elevated to like a next level of humanity almost. You're like, "What... The possibilities are endless."
Em Schulz: I imagine... And even um... I've said this too, when I did Ancestry and I figured out like what one of my relatives' names was, and all I ever wanted to know was anything about him, I figured out his name, I started crying. I imagine the first time you fucking see yourself and not in like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like an identity thing.
Em Schulz: Not even a weird morphed like, like... You're not seeing yourself off of some weird polished copper. Like you're seeing your whole ass body for the first time. Or like even next to your family...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and think like you know what it must...
Em Schulz: You can all see your family.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was gonna say, think about like looking at yourself and saying, "Holy shit, I look like my dad who passed," or like, "Oh my God, I have my mom's eyes." You know, like I feel like things like that that you wouldn't even necessarily know how to recognize.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or to have a mirror in a room where like that was like in a common room and you and all of your kids could like stand next to each other and you could look at your...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: No wonder they're haunted. I'm like, you got a mirror from like 1850 and put it in your house and like you, you see a family in it, it's probably 'cause they just stood there and stared at themselves all day and it's an imprint. I don't know. I feel like no wonder they're fucking haunted.
Em Schulz: It also makes me like not very surprised that so many artists have like portraits of themselves that they did by looking in a mirror. It's like, well...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fair point.
Em Schulz: It's like, "I wanna remember this one. I don't have a mirror nearby." Or like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "I can... I trust myself as an artist to do the best representation of what I look like, so let me do it before someone else did it."
Christine Schiefer: I want people to know how hot I am and where my ear goes.
Em Schulz: People...
Christine Schiefer: And I'm also Van Gogh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. Um, so many cultures had a bunch of different beliefs uh, come out of the invention of mirrors. And you talked already about um, some older places, so we'll start there. In many Mesoamerican cultures, uh, mirrors especially had powers in religious ceremonies and practices. And I don't know if that kind of started the trickle-down effect of like, "Oh, these are portals to another space," but I think maybe it just blew their minds in general that they were like, "This has to be a creation from, not man, like something."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels like elevated. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so uh, they thought that there was a lot of power in them in ceremonies. And in a lot of ancient Mayan, or Maya ritual and burial sites, there are mirrors that are often recovered in like archeological finds. There's always mirrors because they were involved so much.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Some Mesoamerican cultures actually also thought that mirrors connected you to the other world. So they started using mirrors when it came to scrying and divination, although it was used more for viewing than like future casting. It wasn't um... Like a mirror... I feel like that's tricky, so I just wanted to say it, that like I guess a mirror and a crystal ball are different things or are thought of as different things a lot of times. I feel like, like in broad, broad strokes, a lot of people think, "Oh, a crystal ball is you can see the future," which if you listen to our rituals episode on crystal balls, you find out very quickly that it's just kind of actually a mind trick to get yourself, not really in a trance, but it's really a form of meditation and lets you think clearly and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It almost is a trance... I mean, some sort of a trance, but yeah, like a, like a meditative state. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's almost like, like listening to sleep sounds or something, is how I equate it. It's like it's just kind of helping your mind empty and focus on one thing and...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But glass in general and mirrors in general were used for um, for viewing or I guess something on the same level versus, "Oh, I'm, I'm going to... I can have premonitions now."
Christine Schiefer: Right, okay.
Em Schulz: Mirrors were therefore associated with powerful figures. A lot of shamans were associated with mirrors. And then there was an Aztec deity named uh, Tezcatlipoca, which means uh, smoking mirror, and it was often depicted... He was often depicted holding um, an obsidian mirror, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool.
Em Schulz: I love when they've got a deity who has like a little accessory. Like if you were gonna make a...
Christine Schiefer: An accessory.
Em Schulz: If you were gonna make a Barbie doll of this deity, boom...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yes.
Em Schulz: Where's his mirror? So... Uh, actually, I don't even know if it's a...
Christine Schiefer: It's pink.
Em Schulz: A guy. I don't even know if it's a guy. Um, Tezcatlipoca... Anyway, um, uh, it's nice to know that if they made an action figure out of you, you'd be holding an old dirty lemon and maybe your social security card after he found it on the floor.
Christine Schiefer: No, you'd be holding it. You'd be behind me like, "Wait, you dropped this."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You'd be holding all my belongings.
Em Schulz: What a fuck you that my accessory would be your things.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, that's the best part and I'm just like, free, free, rolling around.
Em Schulz: You'd actually have no accessories 'cause you drop everything. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I drop... I wouldn't be able to keep a, keep a...
Em Schulz: Your hands would just be free. Just... And you'd have a confused look like, "Where is it?" you know.
Christine Schiefer: And be like, "But I don't really care 'cause someone will find it for me."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Actually, you're doing this. You're going, "Oh, whatever."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [0:57:24.9] ____. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In these belief systems, it's um, the, the ones that I've already talked about, it's mainly the mirrors themselves that are portals indoors, but the like paranormal element or the like creepy element, it's not focused on the reflection in the mirror. It's that the mirror itself is a standalone powerful entity. But there are, but there are other beliefs that focus more on the reflection. Um, a lot of mirror symbolism in history has for very obvious reasons, uh been associated with vanity. Even in Latin, the word mirror is uh, Mirari, which means to admire. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure. Okay.
Em Schulz: And mirrors are also associated um, in Ancient Greece with the cautionary tale of Narcissus, Narcissus. Um, do you know the story?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, where he stared at himself in a pond...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And he's so enamored with himself and he was... Yeah.
Em Schulz: So he's a man who was so... He was so beautiful that he was beloved by all. And one day he saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with himself and ended up dying, longing for himself but could never have him. Um, and then so there's... That's again, its own cautionary tale about vanity, don't let yourself get obsessed with your looks. Um, in some Christian narratives, there's also an inherent danger in your reflection because by seeing or appreciating your own reflection, uh, they are considered graven images or a carved idol used as an object of worship.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like you're idolizing yourself over...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, especially... Like so there's Amish communities and, and again, broad strokes here, but in Amish communities, it's generally believed that the likeness of yourself to show it at all is a sin. And so to avoid vanity, that's why a lot of Amish people avoid being photographed and even their own like baby dolls don't have faces on them, which cannot be an eerier sight when you first see it. Um, but the reason...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: The reason for it, I have, I I have seen Amish dolls and I did not know the reason just yet, and I was like, "That doesn't look finished." I was like, "That's the creepiest thing I've ever seen."
Christine Schiefer: It's like you erased their face, but yes, but it is... Uh, yeah.
Em Schulz: It's, it's intentional because their uh, belief system is to avoid reflecting human likeness because they don't want you obsessing over looks or you know, anything like that because it's distracting you from a bigger picture. Today, most Amish people seem to believe that the mirrors don't actually capture, you know... Your reflection isn't a graven image. But they do still a lot of times avoid being photographed.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and I just wanna put it out there because I always thought this as well, and it was just pure ignorance, it is...
Christine Schiefer: Steal the soul thing? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. I had no... I didn't know. I just heard it and I just kind of moved on with life.
Christine Schiefer: Growing up in Ohio, we would visit Amish country a lot and that was definitely one of those ignorant, stupid rumors we would always spread like, "Did you know that you can't take a photo 'cause they think that your soul is... There's... " Yeah.
Em Schulz: I always thought it was real.
Christine Schiefer: That's... It's... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yes. So let me, let me state it for everybody else. It is an urban legend that uh, Amish people believe that getting a photo of themselves or looking into a mirror will trap their soul inside of the picture or the mirror, and it will prevent them from going to heaven. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Not true. I thought it was true, but that was also 'cause I didn't have an Amish person to like ignorantly ask a question about.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, but the, the reality is they don't think their soul is gonna be trapped in there. They're just trying to avoid vanity for their religious beliefs.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, so that being said, I have heard tour guides say some pretty um, ignorant things.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know if that's to like bolt, like boost up the tour or something, but it gets spread very easily. So if you hear it, just... It's not true.
Christine Schiefer: Like grain of salt, or grain sand, grain of quartz sand.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh. Oh, grain of sand, shard of sea glass.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, what else?
Em Schulz: You tell me.
Christine Schiefer: What do you say?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You tell me.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: What do you say? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know. All of this is improv.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know either.
Em Schulz: I have no idea. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What if... None of this is anything. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Every conversation we've ever had was improv for sure, because...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure.
Em Schulz: Unless what's written down on this fucking Microsoft Word...
Christine Schiefer: And not good improv.
Em Schulz: Document, I don't know what's going on. Okay, so yes, not a real Amish belief, but they do believe that any likeness could be dangerous. Um... So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, there are European traditions out there called poppets. I guess poppet. Poppet.
Christine Schiefer: Poppet.
Em Schulz: Um, they're essentially powerful dolls that represent a person in rituals. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool.
Em Schulz: In this sense, a doll is a reflection of you, so uh, because it's a reflection of you, whatever harm happens to it can be done to you. It's what has become stereotypically known as a voodoo doll.
Christine Schiefer: I see, okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, which apparently this was falsely attributed with voodoo. I do not know that. But during the American occupation of Haiti, a lot of um, Haitian practices were vilified. But you know, this also, this existed in other cultures, so...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know... Many people think that once a person dies, this is also something I, I heard growing up, um, not in my own home, but enough that it didn't seem weird to me, it felt like it was like kind of normalized, is uh once a person dies, mirrors in the house should be covered or the wandering soul could get trapped inside.
Christine Schiefer: I do know... Yeah, I've heard that as well.
Em Schulz: I feel like this is a stereotype that I, I don't fully believe, but I do weirdly respect. Uh, like I... Uh, you know, blah, blah, blah, I respect all beliefs. Yeah, I just wanna put that up there. But this is one that like it doesn't sound as odd to me. This one feels more at home.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I, I I feel like we've seen that like when we went to, I mean...
Em Schulz: Winchester.
Christine Schiefer: Correct me if I'm wrong, Winchester, where she was in mourning and would cover the mirrors. Like I feel like that was something we've seen like historically.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, it's... I... Yeah, so I wonder if it's...
Christine Schiefer: And it's also hard to like criticize someone's like grief tactic, you know, so it's like...
Em Schulz: That's gotta be it.
Christine Schiefer: You know it's like, well, if that's what you believe or feel...
Em Schulz: If your version of, if your version of grieving is putting a blanket on a mirror, like girl, do whatever you gotta do. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for real.
Em Schulz: Um, also, I feel like maybe it feels more normalized in my head because I did always grow up hearing like, "Oh, mirrors are portals to the other side," so with that in mind, it's like, "Oh well, if this all goes to the portal on the other side, they might... "
Christine Schiefer: You can like make that connection. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I feel like there's like some irrational rationale, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, in more intense forms...
Christine Schiefer: There's like a logic there.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta take a couple of leaps, but not as many as others. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, sure. You tell me.
Em Schulz: In more intense forms of this belief of you know, mirrors having to be covered, there are other groups of people who think that all reflective surfaces must be covered when someone dies, all the way down to glasses of water.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow, okay.
Em Schulz: Because even that could trap the spirit. Which that, that goes a little further than what I would comfortably kind of believe on my own. But the thought alone is still like a, if it's a what if and it's real, like how scary, like can you imagine your whole fucking life, you have this big, great life and then you get trapped in a fucking Dasani bottle? I'd be like, "Oh my God, are you kidding me?"
Christine Schiefer: Dasani bottle. [laughter] Oh, I hate Dasani. Oh, it would be terrible. I would be so bummed out. At least make, you know, Evian.
Em Schulz: At least make it Poland Spring or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. I mean, again, not to like fucking joke about people's beliefs, but like you're right, that is a...
Em Schulz: I know, I know.
Christine Schiefer: If that is a belief, like that's very... That's very scary.
Em Schulz: Very scary. Or like, I mean, it's one of those things where you... I at least 'cause I didn't grow up with that kind of you know, understanding of things, but um, it makes you really wonder like, what is reflective that's around you right now and you're not paying attention to? And it's like, oh, I have to cover up my Captain America Shield? Are you kidding me? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: That'd be the one thing I'd wanna see if I was dead. I'd be like, "One last time."
Christine Schiefer: I know. One last time.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Put me in there.
Em Schulz: And also, it makes you wonder like, what's the... On a spectrum of reflection, like at what point... Like if it's shiny at all, it's covered? Is that what it is? Or like...
Christine Schiefer: Does your like watch count, you know? Like your watch, is it shiny? The windows? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Like my TV when it's turned off, does that mean I could watch TV all day just to get through it? Oh gosh, okay, fine, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Too bad.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's a hard one.
Em Schulz: Um so anyway, I, I would like to sit more of an expert on that and be like, "What, what's the situation?" So, um, many people believe that when a person dies, you cover everything up. Um, depending on the culture, this can also be seen as not just protecting the soul, but like you said, just being respectful and creating a non-distracting environment for people in mourning. So, um good on you for realizing that. A...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you so much. [laughter]
Em Schulz: There's a Chinese funeral tradition where anyone who sees the reflection of the casket will suffer even more grief and could even bring on another death, which that terrifies me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Oh no, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: But I guess my thought is like because we're already all focusing on one spirit, that any reflection is a portal for others to come through or you know, something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. You're like just extenuating the, the death.
Em Schulz: So I wonder if that means like, do caskets in China, or in, in these areas at least, I wonder, are they like sanded down so there's no gloss on them just in case? Like I don't... I... I don't know. Maybe a cultural difference. It would be interesting...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait. I think they mean, I think they mean like to see the casket in a reflection of something else, right?
Em Schulz: Oh, maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Like to see the casket reflected in the mirror.
Em Schulz: The reflection of the casket. You're right. I thought it was like, if they see...
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh, like themselves.
Em Schulz: If the casket is shiny. I was like, then don't you just not make it shiny? Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Easy solution.
Em Schulz: I was like, I can fix that one. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Good job.
Em Schulz: Um, some lore says that your soul travels while you sleep, which we've talked about this a lot.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So it's also best to avoid sleeping with a mirror facing your bed or to even have a glass of water beside you because the glass could be a reflection. Which I always thought of it...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, just not the, the silver part. Maybe cover that up. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: I feel like uh, with the mirror facing your bed, I always took it an even darker route of like, oh, it's an open portal and like demons are gonna come out at night. And maybe that's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's the way I always went where it's more dangerous than your soul going...
Christine Schiefer: I've always had a big draw to Feng Shui and I found it very fascinating ever since I was little. And I feel like I, for some reason, I have a very like natural inclination to understand it. Um and I follow a few TikTokers who do like a, a traditional Feng Shui and like explain it, and I just find it so fascinating. Um, and for some reason, like the mirror thing, I, just from day one, I was like, "Yeah, no, you can't put a mirror... " I don't really know why. It just... In my head, I'm like, "That doesn't... You can't put a mirror by your bed. It's just bad energy." I don't know. I don't know if it's because the portal thing, if it's a reflection.
Em Schulz: Which is weird because I, I have a mirror facing my bed and I've never gotten any weird vibes from it. I, I wonder if it's because it's so far away or... I don't... I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think it's probably just more like if it, if it's something that like bothers you, you know. I mean, I think if you don't feel anything weird about it, then...
Em Schulz: But I also... I also wonder though if there's a science to it. Like is it just like an uncanny valley thing of seeing yourself at night in the dark and like, like could the...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. I don't know.
Em Schulz: You moving and from the corner of your eye, it feels like a shadow walk by like... I wonder if there's something to it.
Christine Schiefer: Like you're setting yourself up for like fear. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, a jump scare. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Maybe.
Em Schulz: Um, even if your soul doesn't wander, which is... We kinda just touched on this, but even if your soul doesn't wander away and that be the reason you keep a mirror away from your bed, but spirits who watch you through the open portal, they can reach out and find you. So that's mainly the fear that I have.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. And they know when you're sleeping. That's not good.
Em Schulz: And they know when you're awake.
Christine Schiefer: They know...
Em Schulz: They know if you've been bad or good.
Christine Schiefer: If you've been bad or good.
Em Schulz: So be good for goodness' sake or they're, they'll get you. Um, all sorts villains... Villains? Did I write that? All sorts of villains... I did write villains. All sorts of villains.
Christine Schiefer: Every villain is lemons.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Is that what you wrote?
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause you could probably sue Nickelodeon.
Em Schulz: I think what I, I think what I meant was demons, and I was just tired writing the notes.
Christine Schiefer: Villains. [laughter] Villains is good.
Em Schulz: All sorts of demons or dark spirits or whatever are supposed to live in mirrors. I guess villains do. If, if you're writing like the next Incredibles movie, by the way, this is your moment to make a mirror monster. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Go for it.
Em Schulz: Since all villains apparently live in mirrors.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and again, because it's a portal between two worlds, just as our soul can go to them at night, they can come to us at night. So... In Ireland, this is one superstition, that if you look in a mirror at night, you can see a fairy, which is apparently very bad luck, you can also see demons, or you could have bad visions of your own health.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Um, eventually, I imagine stories like this over time of, don't look in a mirror because of our personal belief. Oh, don't look in a mirror because of our personal belief. All of them kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know, circle through the world and we get creepy, scary games like Bloody Mary. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which uh, we covered in episode 90. And it involves going into a bathroom in the dark, facing the mirror and chanting Mary's name. Sometimes, apparently, based on where you live, you have to chant Mary's name 47 times.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Can you imagine accidentally doing it 48 times and now you have to start all over? Bullshit.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine saying Bloody Mary 46 times, and then accidentally saying Muddy Blary and being like, "Shit, now I have to start all over."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know if you're doing it with like your little sister or something and she fucks up, you go, "Goddammit!" Like...
Christine Schiefer: Just like, "Oh, you ruin everything."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Do you know that I remember recording the Bloody Mary episode because I was so freaked out? I remember where I was sitting, I was at my old house in Los Angeles and we were both sitting there, and I, I kept looking over my shoulder. Talk about Feng Shui, the chair was like... My back was facing the door and I just kept looking behind me. It scared me, that episode.
Em Schulz: Well, if you'd like to go be scared and listen to, apparently, what could become our two-parter, go back in time and listen to the Bloody Mary episode. Um, these are some of the things if you count, I guess, between three to 47 times, if you say her name, that many, these are the things that could happen based on where you live and what the cultural differences are. Some say that playing Bloody Mary leads to Mary's head appearing in the mirror with blood running down her face. Some people say her body appears with a bloody neck and no head at all.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Sometimes uh, drops of blood fall out of the mirror. My God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Sometimes Mary manifests physically and comes out of the mirror with a knife to drag you back into the mirror with her forever.
Christine Schiefer: And me at 13 is like, "Cool, let's do it." [laughter]
Em Schulz: And every single person was like, "Sign me up."
Christine Schiefer: All children decided this is a good idea. Like, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: Speaking of which, 'cause it talks about her bloody neck, I gotta ask, 'cause I just asked um, Allison earlier, I was like, where does your neck end and where does your throat begin? And, and how big is the threck, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I always thought... [laughter] Threck. I always thought your throat was like in your neck. Like I thought this whole thing was your neck and like your throat is just the part where you swallow and... I don't know. I mean that's just in my own...
Em Schulz: Oh, maybe. I always thought your throat, externally and internally, was the part to the front, and then the sides and back are the neck. No?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So you think it was just like the back of her neck and she kept her throat?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like her tongue's still flopping around there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God! [laughter] Oh God. What was the belief...
Em Schulz: No. And that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: What was the belief that you had... Like when you played Bloody Mary as a kid, like what was the story... Which again, we probably talked about in episode 90, but I don't remember.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was much more tame than any of those descriptions. It was just that like you would see someone standing behind you.
Christine Schiefer: I... Yeah. I thought it was like her, she... Her... Mine was always her head would appear in the mirror, like her face would appear in the mirror.
Em Schulz: Her head only? Like was it floating or did she have her threck?
Christine Schiefer: No... Wow. You know, considering I didn't learn the word threck until two seconds ago um, I don't think that was part of the game. Um, but I just... Yeah, I, I feel like the story I was told was like she would just appear in the mirror. I don't think there was even like more of a description than that.
Em Schulz: You know what's wild is like for Bloody Mary, it's like no one tells you what happens after she's appeared. It's like, do you just stand there and stare at each other and have a fucking staring contest? Does she walk away?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that... I think somebody... I think somebody just always screams.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then everyone runs.
Christine Schiefer: And then everyone screams. And then mom yells downstairs like, "Go to bed!" and then...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're all in trouble.
Em Schulz: Like what if you saw her, like what... At some point?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe no one's lived to tell the tale.
Em Schulz: Oh, no, that's a good way to end it. Okay. Um, some say that uh... This is another um, mirror stereotype that we have discussed over and over, but some say hanging a mirror on a door also creates a portal for demons to enter your house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So like if you put it on your front door, then you've technically erased the door. Um...
Christine Schiefer: That's bad news. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But other people say that if you hang a mirror above a door, it keeps demons and bad spirits out.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. It's like reflecting them away.
Em Schulz: Sure. But I also... But like on the... If you're hanging it...
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't it be the same?
Em Schulz: Wouldn't it be the same thing when you'd be erasing that chunk of wall?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you'd think so.
Em Schulz: I guess bricks are stronger.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Some modern practitioners of witchcraft use mirrors to actually block negative energies even though it is common lore and stereotypical to say that mirrors are only bad and only bring energy towards you. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fair point.
Em Schulz: A lot of people use them to push them out. I wonder what you... What like the... Speaking of like kinky people, I don't know, since you've got your weird little compartment, you can answer this maybe, but for the people who like put mirrors on the ceiling because they wanna like watch stuff go down...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la.
Em Schulz: What is happening there with the spirits?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they are saying, "Next, next portal, please. I don't think I need to be involved in this situation."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or they're saying, "Ooh, ooh, I... Let me in. I don't know."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Is putting mirrors on your ceiling kind of like the Cinemax for ghosts? It's like, "Oh, let's flip through the channels, go to portal to portal in this neighborhood."
Christine Schiefer: Now, that... You're like at a hotel and you're like, "Oh shit, I didn't mean to scroll so far," you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, "Hang on, hang on, hang on, I didn't pay for this."
Christine Schiefer: Uh yeah. Uh... But what...
Em Schulz: Maybe I... Maybe I don't mind.
Christine Schiefer: But like what if I just scroll through one more time and just linger a little too long and see what's going on?
Em Schulz: Like but now, now that we're here, maybe we just watch and if someone walks in the room, I'm gonna keep my finger on the last button just in case, just in case...
Christine Schiefer: Right. We'll just go back to Nickelodeon real quick. Um, do you, do you, do you watch House of Usher?
Em Schulz: Is that porn? What are you talking about? House of Usher?
Christine Schiefer: The Fall of the House of Usher.
Em Schulz: Is it about Usher?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know what you're talking about.
Christine Schiefer: And all his many kinks? No. Um, it's like uh...
Em Schulz: How did we get here?
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's uh, it's uh, it's that new Netflix uh, drama or uh, horror series about um, Edgar Allan Poe [1:17:38.6] ____ Edgar Allan Poe.
Em Schulz: No. I don't even know what you're talking about. No.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. You know, he did um... He... It's the same guy who did um, uh Haunting of Hill House and Haunting of Bly Manor.
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: And Midnight Mass. Um... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Didn't know... I swear to God I wasn't joking. I really thought there must be a connection to porn or Usher, or both.
Christine Schiefer: Is it about Usher, or both? Uh, it's Mike Flanagan, sorry, just to give cred. But uh it's really good, but there's a whole thing about mirror, so just...
Em Schulz: Oh alright.
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact. If you wanna watch it. It's really good.
Em Schulz: It's all about a mirror which is interesting because Black Mirror was very rarely about a mirror.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Uh, a black one too, obsidian.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Just saying.
Em Schulz: And just like that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, okay, I promise I'm almost done. I know we've gone for quite some time now. I promise we're almost done.
Christine Schiefer: I'm loving it.
Em Schulz: Um, but uh, anyway, there's another belief in... We already did that, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, so modern witches today say that they think spirits pass by and see their reflections and actually scare themselves and run away. So that's like...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: So instead of mirrors bringing things toward you, even if they bring it toward you, then they see themselves and freak out and and run, so it ends up blocking energy. Um, I guess that depends on which coven or belief system you're lurking with.
Christine Schiefer: Or like how you're maybe using it as a tool.
Em Schulz: How you're using it, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: I do like the idea of like seeing yourself is so scary that you gotta bounce. But it does kind of play off of the...
Christine Schiefer: Jump scare. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Jump scare. It does feel like it plays off of like certain... Like once you're a ghost, you don't have a reflection. Once you're a vampire, you don't have a reflection. So maybe they see themselves and they go, "Holy shit, I thought I'm not supposed to be able to see this anymore."
Christine Schiefer: "I haven't seen my wart in hundreds of years."
Em Schulz: It's like, "All of a sudden I'm back in the 1800s and I can see myself again."
Christine Schiefer: Or what if you never looked in a mirror and now you're dead and you're like, "That's what I look like?"
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh yeah, I... If you were... If you died before mirrors and now you can see your reflection, you must be like, "What the fuck is going on?"
Christine Schiefer: You're probably like, "Jesus, what is that?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, huh. I feel like that could... I could really spiral with that context.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. I'm sorry. I keep like leading us astray.
Em Schulz: I just, I just... We could really...
Christine Schiefer: Quickly, children, quickly.
Em Schulz: Quickly, quickly, quickly... Um, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, this leads to the belief that vampires and other creatures don't have reflections because they don't have souls. Apparently, witches also fall into this category for some people that... Which I love that they're doing mirror work, but like couldn't possibly have their own fucking reflection. Also, I know witches and I promise, I have taken pictures of them and they show up in the goddamn picture. Um, but...
Christine Schiefer: What witches?
[laughter]
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: I don't see any.
Em Schulz: Uh, but there is newer folklore these days, which I love that folklore has to change and evolve with the story.
Christine Schiefer: Beautiful. It's so cool.
Em Schulz: New folklore theorizes that vampires actually would have reflections in modern day mirrors because old mirrors were made of silver, which is what vampires couldn't be near.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Em, that just clicked for me. I never understood that.
Em Schulz: But now they'd be able to be seen in a mirror because mirrors aren't made with silver anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Woah! That is tripping me out.
Em Schulz: Which also makes me think, would a werewolf survive a bullet if silver isn't what makes bullets anymore?
Christine Schiefer: You know what? There's only one way to find out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Grab the BB gun. No. Um... [laughter] Uh, no, but, so it's just like, oh, well, with new inventions, you like almost have to come up with like, like what if like, what, what if the ingredient in garlic...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know, what if that changed? What if we're like now like eating out?
Christine Schiefer: Is it like, you know... You know when they're like bananas are different than they were like 40 years ago 'cause they got...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, genetically modified.
Em Schulz: Or there used to be purple carrots and now they're orange. It's like, well what if...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Not all carrots. You know, like what if it's the orange carrots that you, you're fine with, but the purple carrots you weren't okay with? Anyway, so...
Christine Schiefer: So many mysteries. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Nowadays, vampires... Nowadays, vampires would have uh, no reflection or would have reflections, I guess, unless they went to an antique store. Um, but another online theory has cropped up that vampires were only uh, invisible in mirrors, not because they didn't have a soul and thus no reflection, but because silver actually cleanses reflections, which I don't know where that information comes from. But that's one of the sources that I guess silver was... Oh, oh, oh no, I do have it. Sorry. I, I missed a bullet. Um...
Christine Schiefer: A silver bullet.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Good one, Christine.
Em Schulz: By the way, speaking of Alu, I...
Christine Schiefer: Speaking of Alu, yeah.
Em Schulz: I saw a baby at the airport yesterday, and I do this thing that everybody has probably heard at least once in their life, if you've heard my voice, where um when I get really excited about things, I have this kind of like gay little chirp, I go, "Ah!" Like I just can't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh yeah, with the hand.
Em Schulz: I can't stop myself.
Christine Schiefer: For sure.
Em Schulz: I saw baby and it was like a toddler, it was like Leona's age, and I waved to the baby, baby not interested, but then had a, had a thought about it again and seemed interest all of a sudden, and then turns around a second time and waves to me with a big goofy smile. And so I got so excited, I looked at Allison, I went, "Ah!" And the baby did it back and went, and went, "Ah!" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Now that's delightful.
Em Schulz: I was like, that's precious. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Now, that would happen in a sitcom and I'd go, "That would never happen." Like that's how cute that is.
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was like... I think I accidentally just like taught him how to be a girly, which I love.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: Which like...
Em Schulz: I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Good for him.
Em Schulz: Good for him. Um, okay, so uh blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Christine Schiefer: Funcle Em strikes again.
Em Schulz: And for my next trick, um, there's a theory that uh, vampires were only invisible in mirrors because silver actually cleanse their reflection because the reason silver was so popular at a different time was because it was a purifying agent or thought to be a purifying agent to treat disease. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And so it was... By being in a mirror, it was treating disease or spiritual ailment, spiritual disease by getting rid of vampires. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Which is what a vampire has. Okay.
Em Schulz: So if that is technically true and with modern mirrors, they would be able to see themselves, then vampires have always had reflections, there was just things in their way.
Christine Schiefer: I see. Interesting. I love this. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, it's also said that when ghosts or demons walk by mirrors, the mirror might crack or tarnish because it is trying to hold in their spiritual power, um...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Which that terrifies me, but it would also make sense why in a lot of like scary stories, it's like, oh, and then all of a sudden this thing shattered, or all of a sudden this thing you know, imploded on itself. Um, some...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting we've had people talk about glass just like breaking...
Em Schulz: There was one story on a listener's episode where like in college, like her whole mirror shattered or something.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly what I was thinking about. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Sometimes the image of the creature walking by in the mirror is said to even permanently stay reflected in the mirror, like a broken screensaver...
Christine Schiefer: Gasp.
Em Schulz: I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Um, which imagine if only like one time in her goddamn life could Bloody Mary do this where she's like, "Oh, well, I'll just stay here forever then," and then you can walk back and forth, she's still there, you've got the evidence, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You got her and her throat, or her threck.
Em Schulz: Her threck obviously. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, obviously.
Em Schulz: And this one, I think is like so smart. Mirrors used to be used by doctors and morticians to make sure they weren't accidentally burying patients alive because they would hold the mirror close up to their mouth to see if breathing would leave fog.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I've seen that...
Em Schulz: Or condensation.
Christine Schiefer: On TV shows where they would hold the mirror to see if someone's alive.
Em Schulz: I had no idea.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Didn't even occur to me. But I feel like that is like some of the smartest medical strategizing I've ever seen.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like DIY grassroots medicine.
Em Schulz: DIY.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mirrors have also continued to be used as divination tools for centuries. And I also thought I could just um, end on a, a few more superstitions and I, I ended specifically on Ireland, just because we started with Ireland. But one is that if two people look in the mirror at the same time, one might die soon, which, yikes. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What about that era where we all like before selfies and we all had to take mirror pictures?
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, and then you'd see all the dirt all over your mirror, or was that just me?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like there's just like splotches on it and it reflects back on your digital camera. Oh God.
Em Schulz: Another one is if you look in the mirror at midnight on Halloween, you will see in the reflection your future spouse. I personally think it'd be hysterical if you looked and now you're like, "Is that my spouse or is that Bloody Mary?" Like it could be both.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She has a crush on you.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like you'd look... I feel like I'd look in and it would just be me and I'd be like, yep, sorry. That's all you got.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "It was those damn shoulders. I knew it years ago." Um...
Christine Schiefer: I love myself. I'm narcissist.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh I see what you're saying. I thought you literally meant if it was you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I meant, I meant, it was just me and uh...
Em Schulz: I got there. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you meant for you? No. I meant I look in it and I'd be alone.
Em Schulz: You're like, "What if it was me? Wouldn't that be crazy if it was me?"
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't that be crazy?
Em Schulz: And I was like, "This is gay. I love it." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Unless... [laughter] Um...
Em Schulz: I mean, I'm just, I'm just joking, but like if...
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, let's go along for the ride, see where it takes us. Um, no, I meant I'm gonna look at the mirror, it's just gonna be me and they're gonna be like, "See, you're alone forever. Ha-ha. Good luck."
Em Schulz: I understand. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Anyway...
Em Schulz: Um, uh, okay, so here's another one that I think is just so odd and only 'cause I didn't grow up with it, but when I read it, I was like, I never expected this to be one full sentence. Um, you have to peel an apple in one continuous peel without breaking the skin and then look in the mirror to see your reflection. And the most intricate version of this is that you're facing the mirror, you're peeling the apple, don't break the skin, then you throw the skin over your left shoulder, and when you look at it later, it will have formed into the shape of your initials, the initial of who you're gonna marry.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I've heard that.
Em Schulz: Um, which I think is super cool. Like it sounds honestly, the...
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like a fun game.
Em Schulz: It feels like a Halloween bobbing for apples kind of game.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. There's something about these apples, yeah, that are like little teenage party games.
Em Schulz: Were apples just like the most accessible thing for these damn people?
Christine Schiefer: It must be. I mean horses were eating them, so they couldn't have been that special. I mean, not that horses aren't special, but you know...
Em Schulz: Right. Actually, I'm kind of craving apples. So that's my fun little treat after you record. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. You gotta be a little crazy today, huh?
Em Schulz: You gotta have an FLT from [1:28:29.2] ____ or else it's just not gonna go well today. Um...
Christine Schiefer: [1:28:31.0] ____. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Also, uh, there's a related ritual that if you cut an apple into nine slices, eat the first eight, and then throw the ninth at the mirror, your future husband will catch the slice.
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Wild. Has anyone done this...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: He's got really good reflexes. Yeah. Well, I mean, has anyone... You wouldn't know unless you were the person on the receiving end and a slice of apple came out of your mirror.
Em Schulz: Right? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like how else would she catch it? I don't understand. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Talk about FaceTime, 'cause then like you catch it, then you look in the mirror, there's a person you don't know. Do you throw it back at them? Like what do you...
Christine Schiefer: Did you know that's actually why um, they named it Apple?
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: FaceTime? Apple? 'Cause of the apple. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What? Was that a bad joke or is that true?
Christine Schiefer: It's not true. I'm saying like 'cause you said FaceTime, original FaceTime, and so yeah, that's why they named the company Apple, you know.
Em Schulz: Okay, that is...
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't... It's literally the dumbest thing.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. I took it literally and I was like, "FaceTime."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm such an idiot. Just ignore me. Let's, let's move past it.
Em Schulz: Just um, evidence that I will always blindly follow whatever you're saying.
Christine Schiefer: I love that for me. Thanks.
Em Schulz: Okay, last thing I'm gonna say is that newlyweds are supposed to stand in front of a mirror together, uh, this, so get ready, Blaise, um, so, so that their souls are bound together in the spirit world by their reflections.
Christine Schiefer: No, thanks. That seems like a lot of pressure. Like getting married is one thing, but like binding your souls together for eternity, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's longer than marriage, 'cause marriage is just for life, but the mirror is for death.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like a prenup does not... As far as I'm concerned, a prenup does not cover that part of the commitment.
Em Schulz: Also, aren't you... Didn't they also just say that if the two of you stand in a mirror together, one of you is gonna die soon?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's exactly what I thought. I was like, are we not supposed to do that or what? I'm confused.
Em Schulz: It's also said to be bad luck uh, for brides to be, to break a mirror, um, and really anyone who breaks a mirror in Ireland is said to have up to seven years of bad luck. I have heard that one, seven bad years of bad luck.
Christine Schiefer: That's definitely uh, a big one. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And also there's other customs where like, like a Jewish wedding where you break the glass too for good luck, so...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know, everyone's got their thing. Everyone's got their flavor with a mirror. Um, and then I wanted to tell you one last thing. I wanted to end again on fun facts about mirrors, and I just wanted to give you a couple. One is that the longest mirror in the world was over 20 miles long in Bolivia.
Christine Schiefer: What? Holy shit.
Em Schulz: 20 miles long. Uh, then I wanted to tell you that the first uh, rear-view mirror was invented by a woman. Hi, Barbie.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was.
Em Schulz: And then what was the last one I wanted to say to you? Um...
Christine Schiefer: Juniper's... Do you hear that? Juniper's throwing his entire body against the door, like...
Em Schulz: No, I can't hear it at all.
Christine Schiefer: He was meowing and it was annoying, but I was like, I don't think it's getting picked up, and then he started hurling his body into the door and it's...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Do you hear that?
Em Schulz: No. But speaking of hearing things, the last fun fact I have for you is that mirrors can reflect sound waves, not just light waves. Um, they are known as acoustic mirrors and were used during, during World War II for detecting sound waves of the enemy.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. Really? That's fun fact. I did not know that.
Em Schulz: And that is Mirrors 101.
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. I wanna take 201 right now. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I think I have to do a bunch of research for it, so...
Christine Schiefer: I guess you have to take 201 first.
Em Schulz: First, I have to learn how to build a fucking mirror and something about volcanoes.
Christine Schiefer: First you have to know what sea glass is, which I think we'll just start from the beginning.
Em Schulz: I feel like... I feel like mirrors, not to sound like a, like a, a mirror nut, but like I feel like mirrors are a lot harder than they're given credit for. I feel like thinking about just the thought of making a mirror, I all of a sudden feel like the dumbest person on earth.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's very trippy. It's like, ha... Like I feel like if you get high and think about mirrors, it probably breaks your brain a little bit.
Em Schulz: I, I also once learned from um, Vsauce, which is like one of my favorite YouTubers that I used to watch as a kid...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I remember that.
Em Schulz: That for uh, that mirrors are actually green.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I've heard that as well.
Em Schulz: And that if you put enough next to each other and do an infinity mirror where you look into one, you can see eternity, just endless, endless, endless, it slowly gets greener and greener and greener and greener.
Christine Schiefer: Woah. Fun fact. Green lava. That's where it all began.
Em Schulz: Oh. We found our way back. We always do.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We do.
Em Schulz: And that's why I drink. Christine, tell me why you drink this week.
Christine Schiefer: Good job. Okay. Well, first I have to let my cat in. I'm sorry. He really is hurling his entire body against the wall. I mean, it really sounds like Edgar Allan Poe's speaking of um... So I'm gonna go let him in real quick. I so apologize. And um...
Em Schulz: That's okay.
Christine Schiefer: While I'm standing right there, I have to pee.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: [1:33:16.6] ____ too. Uh-huh. That's okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know, you get it.
[music]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Juni, I'm sorry. Yeah. So I go pee, I come back, he's already in my spot, and you can see this tail probably throughout the rest of the episode.
Em Schulz: Yeah, this little pussy. Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry about that. I gotta move this so Juni can get comfortable. Oh honey, I'm sorry I whacked your nose.
Em Schulz: You clonked him on the head?
Christine Schiefer: I did. I clonked him in the nose. I'm sorry, bud.
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: He does not seem perturbed.
Em Schulz: Oh, sweet little baby.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Here we go. Now I'm gonna tell you a story that is uh, let's put it mildly, a fucking doozy. Um, I, I will admit the first time I learned about this case, it was a couple of years ago, I cannot remember which YouTuber I watched and I couldn't really find the video, but I watched a YouTube... And it might have been taken down. Um, but I watched a YouTube video about this case, and I totally bought the kind of narrative that this YouTuber was telling me, like this true crime YouTuber, um, and I feel like I had to re-educate myself on this case pretty intensely to like re-learn everything and um... Let's just say I got kind of a one-sided uh, story when I originally learned about it, and um, I have since learned that there's much more to it than I ever thought or knew, and I am very, very curious because I'm assuming this might be the first time you've heard about it. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I'm very curious to hear your thoughts once I tell it. Uh, this is the case of Darlie Routier. Um, I've heard her name pronounced Routier, Routier, Routier, uh but I'm pretty sure it's Routier and they live in Texas, so I don't think it's a Routier, but maybe. Um...
Em Schulz: Maybe it was, and then they go, "My name's Routier."
Christine Schiefer: Routier, yeah. So Routier is the one I've heard like the most often. So we're gonna say Routier.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And Darlie and Darin... So you... Do you know this case by any chance?
Em Schulz: Not even, not even a little.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: So it's also sometimes called the Silly String case, um... You don't know that either?
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No? Okay.
Em Schulz: No. I know Smiley Face.
Christine Schiefer: So... Yeah, Smiley Face Killer, yeah, that's a thing too, but not the same. Um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Darlie and Darin Routier met in Texas when Darin, who was 17, worked at the same steakhouse where Darlie's mom worked. And according to Darlie's mom, Darin approach her and asked about her beautiful daughter he'd heard about, and uh, her mom introduced the two. And Darlie was 15, um, and he said, "She walked in the room and I was just smitten." He just fell in love. And within four years, they were married. Darlie gave birth to their first son, Devon, just about nine months after their wedding. So... I can't do math, but I can do that math.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um, Darin started a successful electronics company that made circuit boards, uh, and this is the '90s, so pretty quickly they find some success because I'm imagining circuit boards in the '90s was um, like cutting it. Right?
Em Schulz: Not as easy of a go as it might be for some...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right, right, right. Like there's, you know... This is the dawn of RadioShack, like the heyday of RadioShack. Um, so he is making these circuit boards and this means they are starting to make quite a bit of money. And neither of them come from money um, in their background, so this was a pretty new experience for them. So they bought a beautiful new house for their growing family in Rowlett, Texas. And uh, like I said, they were new to having loads of money, um, and so they were known as being extremely flashy. And um, they basically spent and spent and were very open about how much money they had. They like to show their wealth, you know. Um, they would... They bought a boat. They bought a used Jaguar. They... The car, not the animal, um...
Em Schulz: Used, not rescued.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Used Jaguar. They adopted...
Em Schulz: Could you please tell Gio like, "Oh, we got... He's used, but... "
Christine Schiefer: We got him used. He was cheaper. He was really cheap.
Em Schulz: But gently used, so...
Christine Schiefer: Gently used. Um, he, he was used. I checked his Carfax, it was not pretty. Um, and so... Unfortunately, he was very cheap. Um... Yes. So they bought the car, the Jaguar, uh, they went on family trips and cruises. Uh, they lived in kind of an uppity neighborhood. She would wear these like really, like kind of bawdy jewelry pieces, um...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, you know what I'm saying. Like they bought fancy watches. They were like those kind of people. Um, but they were really well-loved in the community and like their neighbors had nothing but good things to say about them. Um they considered them a fun young couple. You know, they had these cute kids. They had their second son Damon, who was born just a year younger than Devon. So they had two boys. Um, Darlie was a stay-at-home mom, and friends described her as fun-loving, caring. She was extremely active in her sons' lives, and her house was actually sort of... Uh, I mean which I think you had this kind of experience where like her house was sort of like the home base, like all the neighborhood kids would gather, right, and like play there and all meet together. And she always took care of the, her own kids, but also like was a mom to the other kids in the neighborhood. Um, kids called their house the, the Nintendo house because of course, they had an elaborate game room. I feel like that's a very '90s like nouveau riche thing to like put up a game room together.
Em Schulz: A whole game room.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the dream, right? Um...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. To this day, I want a game room.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, seriously, I mean... Yeah, me too. I'm just thinking about how I don't have a closet and you don't have a dresser, but we want a game room so bad. Um, anyway...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I guess I have a troll hole, so I guess the games could happen.
Christine Schiefer: You do. That is kind of your game room. And I have this room full of full of haunted artifacts, so I guess that's my game room. Maybe we just have like adult game rooms, our own games room.
Em Schulz: I feel like... You can think about like how some people like, there's the, the Cinemax for ghosts of watching you know, through a, a mirror ceiling. If my room had a ceiling full of mirrors, they would just see me doing this in VR all day. It would just be... [laughter] It would just be slowly...
Christine Schiefer: Just like turning, turning.
Em Schulz: Just turning, just standing in silence and turning.
Christine Schiefer: And then saying, "Goddammit, I didn't get a tip from that bitch at the bar, at the Star Bar." What's it called? Stargazer? What's it called?
Em Schulz: Uh, the game or the ship?
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Yeah, [1:39:49.7] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um...
Em Schulz: Which by the way, uh I do have a shift later on today, so I'm, I'm pretty excited about it. I haven't been there in a while, so...
Christine Schiefer: Alright, I'll uh, I'll speed things up. Um...
Em Schulz: If you wouldn't mind, 'cause there... I can already tell that it's gonna, it's gonna be a busy day. It's gonna be tough holidays, you know...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's... Right. You're right. People are recovering from family...
Em Schulz: A lot of locals coming back home. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're gonna have to... But you're gonna get so many good stories from...
Em Schulz: You have no idea. And there's gonna be that bitchy one.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Interplanetary gossip...
Em Schulz: She's always there. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, I can't wait. Okay. So anyway, the Nintendo house, um because they had this elaborate game room. And Devon and Damon were very happy children. Uh, Devon was kind of the outgoing one. He loved to make people laugh. He wasn't afraid of anything. He was doing flips off the diving board. Like the minute he start, learned how to swim, he was like... Very like crazy, fun-loving kid. Um, and Damon was the opposite. He actually felt... He was more shy. He liked to stay close to adults for reassurance. And the Routiers spent as much time as possible together and from the outside, as it often tends to be, friends thought the family had a perfect life. But of course, behind the scenes, that is usually not the case for any family, um, especially one that ends up in a true crime podcast. So what was going on is that in September of 1995, Darlie was pregnant with their third son whose name of course, we got Damon. Devon... Do you have a guess?
Em Schulz: Derek, Dylan.
Christine Schiefer: Drake. You are very close...
Em Schulz: Oh, thank you. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Actually. Very close. Drake. So Darlie, Devon, Damon and Drake and uh, and uh, Darin... Wait. Okay. Sorry. Darlie, Darin, Devon, Damon and Drake. That's the whole family. It's, it's really kooky. There's a lot of uh...
Em Schulz: I love it.
Christine Schiefer: A lot of...
Em Schulz: D's.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah, lot of D's. So uh, Darlie was pregnant with their son Drake and she started to struggle with depression. And um, you know, it was the '90s, it wasn't that long ago, but even nowadays, people are still learning about you know, postpartum depression, um prenatal depression, like just all the kind of mental health, hormonal shit that happens when you are carrying a child and... Um, so back then, you know, this was probably something that wasn't necessarily taken as seriously as it might be nowadays, but she was very, very deeply affected by it, um, as evidenced in a journal entry in which she wrote, "Devon and Damon are growing so fast and I see myself getting older each day. I am now seven months pregnant, and we're bringing Drake Routier into the world. I have had two dreams about death in the past several months. Both times, I was hesitant to go, but when I did, it was such a wonderful feeling, one that you cannot describe. And both times I felt I was going to be with the Lord."
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So these were what her thoughts are. Um, and that October, she also wrote about feelings that many mothers face as they're trying to find like a new uh, identity, or like a new balance of identity, reconciling being you know, your individual self and also a mother, a parent. And she wrote the following. "I really loved Darin," her husband, "with all my heart, but sometimes I feel like I'm missing something. I'm sure I have everything every woman could ever wish for. Maybe it's the excitement, things I used to do when I was younger, the thrill of not knowing, just doing whatever came up. I know I have a lot of responsibilities, but a little craziness once in a while sure wouldn't hurt. I want to grow old with Darin, but I don't wanna feel as though part of me has to die to do it. I am young and I want to feel it."
Christine Schiefer: And that just makes me sad. And she got married at 18 and like, you know, I, I have friends who face that as well where they're like, "Wow, you know, I feel like I kind of rushed," not... I don't wanna say rush, but like maybe did this step earlier, and then felt... Whether it's true or not, it felt like maybe they missed something.
Em Schulz: It felt like a loss of their youth or something 'cause they had jumped right into being a, a married couple.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like you're sort of skipping maybe something that your friends are going through or experiencing.
Em Schulz: Yeah, missing a, missing a chapter of life is...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: A fair reason to be bummed out.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. Exactly. And so after she gave birth to Drake, um, the depression, as you know, I feel like if, if you have this during your pregnancy, uh, it tends to really be exacerbated after the birth. Um, and she fell into a deep postpartum depression, which can be so, so scary. Um, on May 3rd of 1996, she was prepared to take her own life. Uh, she began an entry in her diary, and it was a suicide note to her three sons asking for their forgiveness. And this just like makes... It's just heartbreaking. She wrote, "I hope that one day you will forgive me for what I am about to do. My life has been such a hard fight for a long time and I just cannot find the strength to keep fighting anymore. I love you three more than anything else in this world. I don't want you to see a miserable person every time you look at me. Your dad loves you all very much and I know in my heart he will take care of my babies. Please do not hate me or think in any way that this is your fault. It's just that I... " And according to a friend, Darin walked in right as she was finishing this letter, and she already had the pills out that she was planning to use to take her own life. So thankfully, Darin was able to stop her you know, before she made that move.
Christine Schiefer: And the friend uh, who, who knew the story urged Darlie to get help and told Darin, "You know, you need to find a counselor for Darlie to, to help her out and get her through this before she makes a, a decision like that." And uh, unfortunately, they did not take this friend's advice.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So they both recalled that it was just a few rough days, and then she kind of recovered and said, "You know what, no, I've moved past, past those feelings. I'm okay now." Um, but what doesn't help is that Darlie and Darin were also under extreme financial strain. And uh, you know, that's why I kind of mentioned the way that they spent their money on flashy things, on big purchases, kind of not really knowing how to maybe save their money or utilize it in a way that would last. And so suddenly they are in debt. And at one point, I believe they owed, I think it was like $22,000, um, but that was in the '90s, you know, and...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So much higher now.
Em Schulz: Significantly more.
Christine Schiefer: So business had slowed down pretty dramatically. They owed thousands of dollars on credit cards and taxes. They were behind on the mortgage and their office rental space. And despite their financial situation, which was pretty dire, they were still planning vacations and trips and cruises. And Darin applied for loans to fund the trips, but because of his debt was denied. Um, so friends said Darin and Darlie began arguing a lot, and Darlie just didn't seem like herself. Um, later there would be claims that Darin said Darlie cleaned obsessively, but couldn't keep up with her sons. He allegedly talked about her postpartum weight gain and said Darlie was exhausted and sick of everything, but Darin adamantly denied ever saying any of that when questioned. So we don't know if this is just like hearsay or gossip. But either way, on June 5th of 1996, their friend Barbara came over a little after 5:00 and noticed that the atmosphere in the house was very tense. Darlie was extremely upset. She was pacing back and forth uh, very agitated throughout the house. And Barbara, I imagine, backed out slowly and said, "I'm gonna leave you two to work this out. Uh... "
Em Schulz: "I'll give you a second." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "I think I walked into the Nintendo house at the wrong time." So she's like, "I just wanted to play Super Mario, but I guess things are awkward, so I'm gonna leave."
Em Schulz: Yeah, Tetris will wait. That's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Tetris. Right. What's a... Pong. Pong will wait uh, till next week, I guess. Um, so Barbara left and decided to let them work things out. And what happened next is somewhat unclear. In the original statements, Darin and Darlie both said they had an uncomfortable conversation about their finances, their cars and their boat, and they were both upset. Darlie was having trouble keeping up with the sons and the house, and that was the conversation that they originally said they had. But later they both refuted that and said they never argued that night despite the previous statements. And according to their final official testimonies, that night was calm. They had a regular conversation about stressful topics like any normal couple. And then um, just, you know, kissed and went to bed and uh that was that.
Christine Schiefer: But the following night is when everything went tragically, tragically wrong. So Darin said of June 6th, 1996, "When I went to sleep, everything was perfect. When I woke up, it's been a nightmare ever since." So school was out for the summer. Six-year-old Devon and five-year-old Damon wanted to sleep downstairs just for fun, so they did that like classic camp-out in the living room, you know, which is like such a highlight of youth, I feel like.
Em Schulz: Childhood, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right? And it's so...
Em Schulz: To this day, I still want my friends to come over and do that with me.
Christine Schiefer: I know, and I'm like, "Em, I, I'm... My contacts, where am I gonna put them? I have medication. I'm old. My back hurts." But yeah.
Em Schulz: Don't worry. I'm depressed about it. I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And then I caused your... It's all cyclical. Um, but yeah, they camped out on the floor that night, and Darlie joined them and slept on the couch. Uh, meanwhile, Darin and the baby, Drake, who was really an infant, uh, slept in his crib upstairs. So according to Darlie... Ugh, my stomach turns every time this part of the story comes up. Okay. According to Darlie, she woke up at about 2:30 AM because her son Damon was pressing on her shoulder, and she heard him say "Mommy." So in the dark, she saw the shadow of a man near the couch.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: He turned and moved toward the kitchen and she heard glass breaking.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: She was still groggy, but she followed him into the kitchen where she saw a knife on the floor, which she said she instinctively picked up. The man escaped through the garage and Darlie went back to the living room where she turned on the lights and found both of her sons, Devon and Damon on the floor, bleeding profusely.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Wait, so this... And this person didn't hurt her?
Christine Schiefer: Horrible, horrible. We'll get there.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So literally the next sentence is, it was then that she registered her own wounds as well, uh, which she had no memory of getting because, again, she woke up when her son pressed on her arm.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: She had a cut on her neck and a cut on her arm, and uh, we'll get into that a little more.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But it appeared that she was suffering from amnesia about the attack. She just simply did not remember. It was like she blacked out a big portion of it, like she...
Em Schulz: Like, like somebody hit her on the head.
Christine Schiefer: Well, not... She didn't have any head injuries. Um, it was almost like either a traumatic response or as some people claim, a lie. So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Let's get into it. Uh...
Em Schulz: Can I, can I say a really quick one...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Before I forget this note? But I mean unless there was head trauma where she couldn't remember, I don't understand already how she didn't feel an arm and throat injury, but she felt her son gently pressing her arm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that is one of the crux... That's the crux of a lot of the debates, yes. And that... This is one of the most uh, I've learned, one of the most polarizing true crime stories, um...
Em Schulz: Oh shit, okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's still debated pretty, pretty um, thoroughly and pretty angrily by people on the internet. And I got swept up in some comments and went, "Woah."
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: People really take this stuff really far.
Em Schulz: Well, thanks for dragging me in with you. I can't wait to publicly state my opinion.
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, it's a mess. Okay. So they... She realizes she has been injured as well, um, and it, it, it appeared she had suffered from some sort of amnesia surrounding the attack, um, perhaps brought on by trauma, perhaps a, a head injury, but she didn't really receive a head injury, so probably not that. Uh, perhaps it's a lie. Uh, it's unclear. But essentially, her exact memory of the timeline of when she had been stabbed and when the boys were stabbed is very foggy. What she does know is when she saw the boys on the floor, she started screaming. Darin, her husband, woke up and came downstairs to find Darlie in complete shock. He said she just kept shouting, "Devon, Devon, Devon!" He saw his sons on the floor and got to Devon first. Darin tried to do CPR on Devon, but when he blew into his mouth, the air and blood came out of Devon's chest because the stab wounds had punctured his lungs.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's really fucking horrible. So...
Em Schulz: Oh my God, that, that alone is a traumatic event, on top of everything else.
Christine Schiefer: It's all incredibly, incredibly traumatic. So Darlie called 911 in hysterics, and I've listened to this call many times. Uh, she screamed, "They just stabbed me and my children, they just stabbed me and my kids, my little boys." And this 911 call has gotten a lot of analysis, a lot of conflicting opinions uh, from people. Experts have had problems with the way that she said, "My, my kids, my boys," but won't say their names uh, on the call, you know, just things that are kind of like not, not necessarily a smoking gun, but, but kind of a weird look, suspicious...
Em Schulz: Somewhat suspicious or something.
Christine Schiefer: Perhaps. And so there's been a lot of critique of that 911 call as well. Meanwhile, Damon was lying on his stomach, and in the 911 call, Darlie is heard telling her sons to hold on and be strong. In an interview, Darlie said one of the boys, likely Damon, who was still somewhat responsive, said, "Okay, Mommy." And those were his last words.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible. It's horrible. And I'm sorry for even...
Em Schulz: So he wasn't even... They weren't even... He was... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So first responders arrived and Devon had already passed. Um, Damon and Darlie were taken to the hospital, and Damon was unfortunately declared dead on arrival having succumbed to his wounds in the ambulance. Uh, they had been viciously stabbed. But Darlie was also in bad shape. As I mentioned, she had a stab wound in her arm and she had a cut to her throat. And I, I was, I was kind of waffling on how to tell the story because there's so many different angles to come at it from, but I'll just tell you that the injuries she sustained were later described as superficial, um, and that was how prosecution uh, presented the evidence. And yet, we know now, which is this kind of information that I was saying I, I didn't get until later, that actually uh... And I looked up the photos, they're, they're pretty horrific of her in the hospital. Um...
Em Schulz: Really? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Her stab wound in her arm went to the bone...
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Like went straight to the bone.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And her throat was cut to only one or two millimeters from her carotid artery and...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: She had to be rushed into surgery. And, you know, one of the arguments, I'll just kinda spoil this part now, but one of the arguments was that she had inflicted this wound on herself to make it look like she'd been attacked, right? But um, you know, to be a millimeter, two millimeters away from your carotid artery is something that's not easy...
Em Schulz: Deep ass cut.
Christine Schiefer: Deep ass cut, also not, not easy to like measure, like... Uh, you wouldn't necessarily be like, "Alright, great, I'll stop right before my carotid artery." Like you know, the average person wouldn't really know how to do that. Um, and what's more is that the reason that the knife, which should have killed her, uh, the cut in her neck should have killed her, and the reason it didn't is because a necklace she was wearing actually got in the way, and they had to surgically remove the necklace. And so it's not even like, "Oh, someone like meticulously sliced there."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: But the way that it was presented to me in that first YouTube video I watched and you know, to more importantly, the jury, was that these are superficial self-inflicted wounds is how it was presented. And this is where this is all getting very muddy and where people argue back and forth and back and forth about whether she could have done this or not.
Em Schulz: Well, do... I, I don't even know like... I don't know the rest of the story, so I don't know when to time my questions, but um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just go ahead. I know... I feel like it's hard when I... When you don't know the whole thing.
Em Schulz: So you can tell me to... You know, I'll tell you later. But um, are people... Is there a camp of people who say that it was self-inflicted, but she, although it's usually men, was being a family annihilator and actually... I mean, she was already having suicidal ideation, so she might as well just taken the kids out?
Christine Schiefer: That's so interesting you... Yeah, that's so interesting you say that because um, I was listening to a few podcasts about the story, just to hear what other people's takes were, and I'd love to hear when other people find like sources that aren't you know, on every other show. Um, but on the Crime Junkie episode I listened to, it was a two-parter and they mentioned family annihilators and uh, they made a good point that you know, family annihilators are typically... It doesn't really fit the mold of that because the husband and baby were still upstairs. Um, it, it just doesn't quite fit that, that kind of family annihilator trope. You know, family annihilators are almost always men. Um, but the financial strain also kind of plays into that, where you're thinking like, well, maybe um, there's a burden... Maybe they're a burden to her in her mind you know, and...
Em Schulz: I, I don't know the rest of the story yet, but I feel like maybe because so many family annihilators are men, we don't have enough information on what female family annihilators would look like. But I...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I wonder if she was thinking after her last near attempt, she was like, you know, "Maybe it would be easier for my husband to grieve if he didn't also have to watch the kids, or maybe I take the kids with me or something," like something...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's odd because I feel like typically, a family annihilator goes for the children and the partner to like move on to a new life, and it feels almost like... Yeah, it could be...
Em Schulz: Like why hurt the kids and not him?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right? It feels like almost...
Em Schulz: Maybe they got in a fight and like this was uh for him to suffer. I don't, I don't know. I, I don't know. It sounds like they were in love though.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's hard because it's like every theory kind of makes sense, and then it kinda doesn't. So it's like there's not, not one thing that really fits all of the clues, all of the uh, evidence, all of the motives. Um, it's, it's bizarre. It's bizarre. Um, so Darlie was in bad shape. Um, right. So it turns out, I learned later that her injury went straight to the bone and her carotid was like a millimeter away from being cut which would have killed her. So they rushed her into surgery. Um, there are photos of her in the hospital with bruising like from, I think it's from her wrists to her armpit, like these thick dark, horrible bruises. Um, and according to Darlie's sister, after her surgery, Darlie was groggy and just wanted to touch her son's photos and just weep, and uh...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: She kept asking, "Why my boys? Why my boys?" And her, her bruising from her wrist to her armpit was like really like dark and, and disturbing. She had cuts on her hands that were consistent with defensive wounds from someone stabbing at you or from grabbing the knife as someone um, tried to stab, and it was on her, I believe her left hand, which kind of indicated it wouldn't have come from if she were stabbing with her dominant, which was, she was right-handed. So you know, it didn't seem like it was from stabbing herself. It seemed like a defensive wound. But other people, as I learned online, have said, "No, those are paper cuts. Those are not defensive wounds. She was just putting paper cuts on her hands." And I'm like, "Well, I guess you can say whatever and we don't know." So...
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: If... Everyone has a different opinion on this. Um so the stab wound on her arm was also consistent with defensive wounds, uh, someone gets when they raised their arms over their face to shield themselves, like the bruising was deep and dark on that part of her forearms. And Darlie described the attacker as a tall white man with long hair in a baseball cap, uh, but it was too dark and she was too kind of out of it to make out a lot of details. Now, at first, the crime scene seemed to support her stories. So there was a cut screen in a garage window where the intruder seemed to have entered and exited the house, and it had been cut from the outside. There were bloody footprints and broken glass on the kitchen floor. However, the blood ended up being underneath the broken glass. Let me explain that better.
Christine Schiefer: There was broken glass that she claimed had happened, I think before the stabbings or before this person fled, and then the way that the blood ended up being not on top of the glass, it was almost police sort of took it and turned it into, she was staging a crime scene by breaking glass after the attack that she had perpetrated. So that was one of the kind of immediate clues, so to speak, that law enforcement decided, pointed the finger at her. And uh, there were also a bloody fingerprints found in the house, um, including prints that did not match Darlie, Darin or the boys.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And uh... Yeah, so that's odd. I don't know if they mentioned Barbara. I don't know if they checked Barbara who was over playing fucking Super Mario earlier, but...
Em Schulz: Poor Babs. [laughter] Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Babs is like trying to get the high score on Pong and no one will let her. Um, in the hospital, investigators asked Darlie questions about her husband Darin and she realized like, "Shit, they might be thinking he did this." And so she made it clear he was not the attacker. It was not him. He was asleep upstairs. And a nurse in the hospital said she had never seen anyone as scared as Darlie was when she was a patient of hers. Um, the hospital staff...
Em Schulz: Wow. Right. So she's at least acting very well.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. And I feel like that was never highlighted when this case was kind of in the media, 'cause she was pretty quickly vilified. And so it's interesting to hear this angle that she actually was like deeply terrified. And the hospital staff was really focused on keeping her safe because she thought maybe her attacker was still on the loose you know, and was still after her. So in the following days, Darlie was released from the hospital and the Routiers buried the boys. This makes, makes me cry. They buried them together in one casket, um, holding hands.
Em Schulz: Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's fucking awful. Um, at the funeral, family had to physically hold Darlie up, so she wouldn't collapse in grief. And at first, the public rallied in support for Darlie and Darin, like they were really on their side, obviously. This is such a fucking tragedy. But nobody knew that behind the scenes, investigators were quietly building a case against Darlie, whom they had suspected as the perpetrator of this from the very start.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So on June 14th, the Routiers decided to have a birthday party at the cemetery for Devon who would have turned seven a week after the murder. So Darlie's mom said to Darlie, "Let's just for one day try to get through it without crying a lot." She wanted her daughter to find a little joy and to celebrate the life of her boys in the wake of the tragedy. So the Routiers and their friends attended this party at the grave site, along with several other children. They covered the boys' graves in balloons and other decorations, and then they all smiled and sang "Happy Birthday". And then she got out Silly String and began spraying it all over the grave site. I think you can probably see where this is going. And they were laughing. And uh, a local news station, of course, filmed the entire event and aired it, and that's when things started to go very south for Darlie because people were shocked by the way she reacted to having a funeral at her sons' grave site a week after their brutal murder.
Em Schulz: A birthday party.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, a birthday party. And so she was you know, smiling and laughing and um, many people... And Saoirse wrote this in here, like many people commented on the fact that she was chewing gum, which Saoirse found odd, but like I kind of get, I do kind of get that because I feel like...
Em Schulz: To fidget, like a, an anxiety thing?
Christine Schiefer: No. She was just kind of like, you know when like people are like smacking gum really loud and it's sort of like a... It feels very casual and like... You're just shooting the shit, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she has like a big wad of gum in her mouth, and I know this is a lot of pet, people's pet peeves. It's definitely one of my mother's pet peeves. But like she's just kind of like smacking her gum really loudly while she talks to the reporters and it's like, "Oh, you know, they would have wanted us to be happy, and I know they're celebrating in Heaven," and it it was a little bit like, woah.
Em Schulz: A little too casual or...
Christine Schiefer: A little too casual, a little too soon, a little too upbeat for most people to kind of swallow um, as like a grieving mother one week after the murder of her two boys. You know, it, it felt, it felt off. And I will say like now I've really changed the way I think about this case, but at the same time...
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I... Yeah. At the same time though, I like still watch that clip and go, "Eww."
Em Schulz: Really? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's not a good look. You know, she's joking, she spraying silly paint, silly spray, like they're laughing it up and like you know, out of context, admittedly, there is more context which we'll get to, but out of context, at the very least, it's not a good look. And I feel like if you are in a scenario where you're trying to say, "Hey... " You know what, I just realized too, she didn't know that they were looking at her as a suspect. So maybe in her mind, she didn't have to show like...
Em Schulz: Grief or something.
Christine Schiefer: The grief that she thought people would wanna see, like she... It probably didn't even cross her mind. Um, so maybe that's the issue.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think it's... I mean I also... I'm not a parent and I, I, I can't imagine you know, being that... Acting that fine for one day and one day only a week after to celebrate a birthday. I feel like there would still be really intense moments of sorrow. And I also understand that people grieve differently, but I... Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I haven't seen the video, so I don't know how it looks, but I'm gonna take your word for it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think there's just an inherent like discomfort when you watch it, like an unease where you're like...
Em Schulz: Is it like the Chris Watts thing where he was just acting a little too not concerned during the interview?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it's almost... Yes, that's kind of the same vibe. Right, exactly.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like yeah, people grieve differently, of course, and we do talk about that a lot, and it's very relevant in this case, but it's almost like in a public show like that, it just felt very... Like people... I feel like people on the outside who didn't even know the boys were still grieving so deeply and like to see you know, a, a very kind of flippant like birthday celebration with Silly String and like all giggling and like eating cake, it just seemed very like too soon, like not, not the right vibe. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I got you.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: It's hard to explain 'cause also, like it's all subjective. And again, like Saoirse's right. Like there's no reason somebody shouldn't be able to chew gum when they're grieving their son's death, you know. But it's just something like about the interview where she's just smacking her gum really loud that just feels very like, "Hello? Are you taking this seriously?" you know. And again, like there's more...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Imagine if it was just like a, like a nervous...
Christine Schiefer: I know, and it might be.
Em Schulz: Like if it's just normal and she's like "I'm just fucking chewing gum."
Christine Schiefer: It probably, it probably is. And like I feel like for most people, they're like, "What, what is your problem with a gum?" I just know people who have such an issue with that, like sensory or like a, just pet peeve about people smacking their gum that I'm sure like that just rubbed people the wrong way. [laughter] Um, so I just wanna put that out there because I feel like it's easy to say, "Oh, well, why can't she chew gum? Or why can't she... " Not against Saoirse, but for people who've said like, "Well, what's a big deal for doing like a celebration of life?" And like of course, I just think there's a human side to, at least me or some people who watched this, a lot of people who watched this and felt like, felt [2:08:42.4] ____...
Em Schulz: There's also some people... This is not, by the way, me saying like, "Well, some people are sensitive." That's not what I'm saying. But there are some people who are like maybe reading into the situation because, of course, you would. Like maybe there's like a...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Some people are just...
Christine Schiefer: There's like a human... Yes, we analyze... Yes.
Em Schulz: Like a, like a heightened, a heightened awareness that like... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're analyzing what she's doing and if it's something especially that like annoys you or makes you uncomfortable, you're probably gonna not look so highly upon it, or that's...
Em Schulz: Or also like I'll... I would, I would hope, and I think I'm fair to say that like a lot of us have never been in that situation, so none... I think we're also playing the comparing game of like, "What would I do? And it's not that." So...
Christine Schiefer: Definitely. And... Exactly. It's like, "When I grieve, I'm not gonna spray silly paint all over my dead six-year-old's grave," and it's like, "Well, you know what, I feel like you're pulling the context out of it and you're not... "
Em Schulz: Also...
Christine Schiefer: You don't know that. You don't know what you would do.
Em Schulz: This is, this is something... I mean I've talked about this before, but I... When... On, on my grandparents' death days, I like to do something that I know that they would enjoy doing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I could see if I had a six-year-old who just passed away and I was still like trying with anything I had left in me to celebrate their birthday, they would have wanted a Silly String fight. Like I, I can totally see that. I think like the, maybe like the one-on-one interview with the gum smacking, I, I could see myself feeling weird about, but I, I don't personally feel any weirdness towards like trying to throw a birthday party on your dead kid's birthday. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess it was just...
Em Schulz: I feel like that's not weird to me.
Christine Schiefer: That it was like six days later and like it, it was such a brutal murder, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't like, oh, he died of cancer and we knew this was coming and like we just wanna celebrate his life. I... And again, this is all so subjective and I'm not saying like, "Oh, well, if he had died of cancer, it would be okay." That's not what I'm saying.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. We're on the same, we're on the same page. I just... I think I'm...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: I think we totally are. I think the public sentiment was like, "What the fuck? Like we're on your side, but like what are you doing, like throwing this big bash at your sons grave?"
Em Schulz: The one-on-one um, interview, that feels a, that sounds like it was a little cringe, that part I would... I can definitely see myself questioning more. But like even if my mom you know, or if anyone I cared about, knock on wood, please don't let this happen, like if someone suddenly pass away, if you died suddenly, I would... Even if it was the next day, I feel like I would try to be like, "Well, happy birthday."
Christine Schiefer: But I also feel like you would... Like I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I also feel you might... You would probably do it in a more like almost reverent or like emotional sad way. I don't know. Maybe not. But I feel like there...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, that's fair to say.
Christine Schiefer: There would be like sadness, right, like at least some.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so...
Em Schulz: I would...
Christine Schiefer: And again...
Em Schulz: I would be flip-flopping all day between like, "Oh, this... You would really like this," and then crying 10 minutes later. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "This would mean something to you. I wish you were here." Whatever. And I feel like um... And I, I say all this because this is what the public was shown and there is more context that we will get later, but...
Em Schulz: Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: From this, just this clip, it's, in my opinion, not a good look. Uh, so...
Em Schulz: Okay. I haven't seen it and, like I said, blind trust. It's weird.
Christine Schiefer: I am gonna send it to you. Um... Okay. So yeah, I'll send it to you afterwards, just, just out of... So you can see it. And I'll... I'm curious what you think. Um... We'll do that in the after chat. I'll show you the video. You can tell me what you think.
Em Schulz: Oh, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, perfect. Uh, after hours. So...
Em Schulz: Content. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: #Content. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Really sad, fucked up content.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so in any case um, the Silly String incident happened and uh, the public tide kind of turned against Darlie, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So the prosecutor on the case later said, "I was really taken aback by her demeanor. As a parent, I found it disgusting." And...
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: There's a lot of attack on... You said character assassination or character attack earlier, and I like couldn't stop thinking about it 'cause it is exactly part of this case. A lot of character assassination is involved here. Um...
Em Schulz: By the way, I said that um, not while recording. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, sorry. It was earlier. We were just like joking about something else and Em said...
Em Schulz: In case people are like, "Why did they delete that?" No.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, sorry. Good point, good point. That phrase essentially is what I was like, ding, ding, ding, that's what this case is uh, a lot about. About a lot? A lot about? Forget it. So English, you know, um...
Em Schulz: Not your first.
Christine Schiefer: Not the first. Uh a few days after the birthday party, Darlie and Darin were called to the police station and they were excited, they thought there was a lead. Um, someone suggested they bring an attorney, but the Routiers believed like, "Oh, we're not guilty, so we don't need an attorney." Not true. Not true. Don't let anyone tell you that. Get an attorney if you're being questioned, okay?
Em Schulz: Just, just for fun. Just try it.
Christine Schiefer: Just, just for funs. Um, so they went in eagerly without reservations thinking they were gonna be told like there was somebody you know, they found culpable, or a suspect at least.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But when they got to the station, the investigators separated them, took Darin to the house, asked him to walk them through the night of the murders, and after he did, they said the evidence supported his story completely. But they did not feel the same way about Darlie. 12 days after the brutal attack, they arrested her for the murder of her two sons. Darin's reaction was gut-wrenching. Uh, his mom said he felt like the boys died again, like when they arrested his wife.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Your whole family's over twice.
Christine Schiefer: Just taking... Yeah, it's like a whole another blow. Yeah, exactly. Darin said at the police station, he saw the investigators jump up and high-five each other in celebration when they arrested Darlie and he was sick...
Em Schulz: Oh, not tasteful.
Christine Schiefer: To his stomach. So not tasteful. He told police, "You guys have the wrong person. You guys are making a big mistake," but they were on this route and they stuck with it. So the story made national news. People had these opinions. They had already turned on Darlie after the birthday party at the grave site. But there was more fuel in the fire against her. Only a year earlier, Susan Smith, I don't know if you know that name, but she notoriously murdered two of her children by driving her car into a lake while they were strapped inside.
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And this had just happened a year earlier. And so this was like... People were primed to believe like, "A grieving mother? Hmm. Are you sure? Or did you kill your children?" You know, because the story had just taken the media by storm. And the Susan Smith story, which I've not covered, but um, I will definitely one day, she told police a black man had hijacked her car and kidnapped the kids, and she went on a week...
Em Schulz: Fucking great.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking great. And she went on a week-long kind of woe-is-me tour, publicity tour asking for her children back, and then she outright admitted, eventually, that she drove her car into a lake and left them in the car. Um, and guess why? Because she thought they were in the way of uh, her new relationship with a man.
Em Schulz: Classy.
Christine Schiefer: So you know, it happens. Fucked up, but it happens. And so people thought, "Well, maybe this is that same story all over again." And after nine days of a county-wide search and public appeals to bring home Susan's children, she finally admitted it was her. Um, and Time Magazine put Susan's face on the cover uh, with the headline, "How Could She Do It?" And so now America was primed to believe like a mother could brutally kill her children and lie about it on national TV, and this is kind of where people's heads were at.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: You...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just, just before I, I get confused, was that actually Susan or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sorry. That was Susan's... Sorry. That was Susan's case um, from a year before Darlie. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh okay, okay. I didn't know.
Christine Schiefer: That was Susan's case before Darlie. And so people... When Darlie went on the news and saying, "Oh man, I'm so... You know, my kids have been killed," people were like, "Hmm... " Like primed...
Em Schulz: Got it. I didn't know if you accidentally mixed up the names. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, sorry. Yeah, no, they were primed to be suspicious of Darlie. Uh...
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Pretty immediately. Darin Routier even told interviewers that the police brought up Susan. He said police told him, "She just snapped. She's another Susan Smith." Like they literally just looked at her and said, "She's Susan Smith 2.0." Um, and so Darlie's trial, as you can imagine, was very polarizing. People picketed with "Free Darlie" signs outside. Others demanded the death penalty. And she was only charged with Damon's murder. And the murder of a child under six qualified for capital punishment in Texas. So prosecution felt it was the only necessary charge. But on top of that, um, it wouldn't qualify for double jeopardy because they could uh... If they failed, they could try her again for her other son's murder, uh, because it would be a different crime technically.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they just charged her, which seems a little fishy to me, but whatever, um, they just charged her for the murder of her one son, so that if that didn't go, they could charge her for the murder of her second son. I get it, but like it's a little kind of a loophole. So the prosecution had no confession, no motive and no solid physical evidence proving Darlie killed her sons, but they aimed to cast doubt on her story about the intruder. Doctors testified that Darlie's wounds were self-inflicted, however, the extent of the bruising and the defensive nature of the wounds made that difficult to believe. Some have called the wounds superficial, uh, and that is what the jury was told, but again, like it came out that it was really not superficial. One went to the bone, one almost sliced her carotid artery, she had to have surgery.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You, you can look up the pictures, they're pretty brutal. Next, prosecution claimed there was no evidence anyone entered or exited the house through the window with the cut screen. And they looked at the mulch and the dust and said, "There's no way, there's no footprints." According to them, the dust on the window sill was undisturbed as was the mulch in the flower bed outside the window. But in a later documentary, Darin demonstrated that the window is so low to the ground that the intruder could have just stepped in and out over the window sill without stepping on it. Like it's such a low to the ground window, you wouldn't need to like hoist yourself onto the sill.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You can just step over it.
Em Schulz: There's no disturbing needed. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You don't need to disturb the dust. Exactly. He also showed cameras that the flower bed was seven feet away from the window. So just the fact that there was no footprints in the flower bed, well, it was seven feet away, why would they need to be footprints in the flower bed to prove someone climbed in the window? It didn't make sense. The intruder would have only had to step on concrete to enter and exit the window. In other words, they wouldn't have left the footprints. Um, so prosecutors also brought up a seemingly disturbing note uh, from the 911 call Darlie made, which I mentioned got a lot of shade uh, and a lot of heat. In the call, Darlie told the operator she picked up the attacker's knife and was worried that perhaps she had disturbed any fingerprint evidence that might have been on the handle and could have caught the killer.
Christine Schiefer: And you know, this was odd because people said it was really bizarre that somebody on the phone with their children actively dying in front of them is saying you know, um, "Oh no, I picked up the knife. Like is that gonna ruin the evidence for... " You know, it... They said like that's just not a normal reaction. Um, however, uh, you know the thought was common sense is no mother would be focusing on like, "Oh, should I have left fingerprints on the knife?" when your child is dying front of you. But again, the context was missing because in the 911 call, Darlie was crying on the phone about the attacker and told the operator about the knife she found, and the operator exclaimed, "There's a knife? Don't touch anything," and Darlie sobbed, "I already touched it and picked it up," and then she kinda realized what the person was implying and she started crying about ruining potential evidence. So it wasn't like she just like popped in her, her head and said, "Oh no, I ruined the evidence." It was like, no, no, no, she was instructed and she realized she had done something wrong and it upset her in the moment.
Em Schulz: That makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think so. And then there was a broken glass in the kitchen. Darlie said she had heard a sound like glass breaking, but again, the blood was found under the glass. Um, investigators said the blood should have been on top if she had like bled on it as she was running after you know, the attacker.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but experts weighed in that unfortunately, the crime scene was extremely contaminated before the investigation even began because Damon was still alive and you know, if in, in a scenario where victims need medical treatment on-scene, evidence just has to be displaced because priority number one is treating the victims. It's like, you know what, we...
Em Schulz: Okay, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: We don't have time to figure out what to touch and what not to touch if we're trying to save someone's life. So the scene was compromised long before investigators even got there. So there's no way to say like that's...
Em Schulz: So it wasn't even her fault.
Christine Schiefer: No. Or we don't know. There's just no way to know if, if it was disturbed, but there is a chance that it was disturbed, you know, and it was not her doing. Um, but it was originally, of course, like pitched as there's no way this could have happened unless she planted it, but that's obviously not the case. So the defense argued that you know, the glass could have shifted in the chaos of the, the EMTs arriving on scene. And then there were the bloody prints in the house that didn't match Darlie or anyone else living in the house and presumably not Babs either. So they never found a match for those prints. Never found a fucking match for the bloody fingerprints.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But they appeared to be an adult's prints...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Onto the knife. If Darlie's story is true, the murderer used his own knife to cut the screen and enter their house, but then grabbed a kitchen knife from inside to attack the Routiers, which seems odd if he already came with a knife.
Em Schulz: Right. He would have just used his own knife.
Christine Schiefer: You'd think so. So investigators found fibers on the kitchen knife that they said linked to the window screen. So they believed that a win... Uh, a knife in the block...
Em Schulz: Cut the window.
Christine Schiefer: Had been used to cut the window screen.
Em Schulz: So someone inside went outside to cut it.
Christine Schiefer: And did the cut, yeah. However, turns out the fibers that appeared to be from the window screen actually also identically matched the brush that investigators use to dust for fingerprints. And these are like microscopic fragments and they had... They had dusted the knives for fingerprints so it could very well have been...
Em Schulz: Their own brush.
Christine Schiefer: The fibers from the brush, not from the screen. And actually, like a later attorney, Darlie's new attorney said he tested, I think seven um, knives that had been uh, brushed for fingerprints and four of them had those exact same fibers on them from the brushes. So it's...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: There's a very good chance that that was not from the screen and that it was from just the evidence collection. So there was no blood evidence supporting that Darlie was stabbed on the couch. Her blood was found near the kitchen sink, and that is where investigators pitched that she had stabbed herself over the kitchen sink um, to like inflict her own injuries.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And there was also a blood spatter on the back of her shirt which matched the boys' and seemed to suggest it got there as she raised the knife above her head during the murders.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Wow, like the full-on, like the movie Psycho in the shower.
Christine Schiefer: Like slasher... Yes, yes. Horrifying. But the defense argued that the boys' blood could have ended up on her shirt at any point after the attack as she tried to save them you know, if she's on the floor, or if she's trying to hold them, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Darin also testified that Darlie went back and forth between the kitchen and the living room to get wet towels as an attempt to just like help the boys. And it's not clear why she like wet the towels, but also she was in shock, you know, and so it's like, who knows why she wet the towels? She maybe was just thinking like, "I'll clean up their face and... " Who knows? Who knows what she's thinking? But she wet the towels and that could have been where the blood came from in the sink, maybe from walking back and forth.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and the bloody towels found throughout the scene did support that, so it was pretty clear that she had wet several towels and it could very well explain why there was blood in the sink. So Darin and Darlie left bloody barefoot footprints in the house, but there was a bloody boot print in the garage. And one of the officers on scene was advised that it was likely left by an officer who tracked in blood, but that was never checked. Nobody... They just said, "Oh, it was probably just a police officer walking through and accidentally got blood."
Em Schulz: They never even checked?
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, that's... No comment.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking sucks. Uh, so finally, a key piece of evidence was a sock, which I didn't even hear about in the initial telling of this story.
Em Schulz: Oh really? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I think, I think maybe because it was like... The video was probably like five, 10 years ago maybe, so maybe, maybe it just hadn't been released yet. Um, 'cause it is a more recent update. But the key piece of evidence was a sock uh, from the house found in an alley down the road near a sewer, uh, like a sewer entry...
Em Schulz: What? How did they even find that?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, and it took them a while, but when they were like just looking you know, in the neighborhood, they found this sock and when they tested it, the blood on the sock matched Damon and Devon. It was found near a storm drain and people speculated the murderer tried to throw it in the drain as he escaped. And the sock is so interesting because it just throws a huge wrench into the story if...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like they... The... Were these clothes taken? And why was that thrown in the sewer, but nothing else? And did someone leave and then come back and...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. The timeline doesn't work if it is Darlie because uh, like just to show you how the timeline just does not work, um... So another important thing is that the sock had none of Darlie's blood on it. It only had the boys' blood on it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And she was bleeding heavily from her arm and hand, so it would have been difficult to avoid bleeding on the sock when she carried it down the street, if she somehow planted this like 75 yards away or whatever.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And it also screwed with the timeline because experts testified that Damon could only have survived his injuries for roughly nine minutes. Darlie's 911 call lasted six minutes and authorities arrived within a minute of the call ending. So that means Darlie would have had only two minutes or less to finish stabbing her sons, go to the garage, cut the window, run out the back gate 75 yards down the alley barefoot in just a t-shirt, drop the sock without getting any blood on it, run 75 yards back, which is by the way, a total of one and a half football fields of running, uh...
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: Then cut her throat and her arm at the sink, clean up most of her own blood, stage the glass and knife, wake up Darin and finally call 911. It just is so implausible that this would have occurred this way.
Em Schulz: Unless the sock was able to like travel on its own, like a, like a random dog in the house ran with it in its mouth or something. Like I, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they don't have pets? They don't have...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, not that I know of. And, and part of the issue too is like if it was by a storm drain and someone was disposing of evidence, who knows what else is down that storm drain? They never checked. You know, it could have been... They could have dumped other stuff down the storm drain and the sock just didn't go all the way through.
Em Schulz: Right. But wouldn't it... Wouldn't they also wanna... That... I, I feel like that's like a weird accidental... I know this isn't how it would go, but in my mind, it feels like something like, oh, it got stuck on one of the investigators and then it fell off when he was walking back to his car and then the rain washed it away. Like... 'Cause I can't imagine if you're gonna throw things away to get rid of evidence, I would think there are several other things beyond a random sock that would have been like vital pieces of evidence you could have gotten rid of. No?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean I think...
Em Schulz: Like the knife and everything.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that is true, 'cause the knife was left at the scene, which is odd.
Em Schulz: So wouldn't they have like tried to throw... I would have tried to throw my, the fucking weapon away if I was trying to get rid of evidence, not a random piece of clothing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No, it's a, it's a fair point. It's a fair point. And like we don't know, maybe there was other evidence that they did throw down the storm drain and only the sock you know, got stuck and didn't make it down. Um, but there is more about the sock uh...
Em Schulz: Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: That I've heard, which is just a theory, and there's no proof substantiating this, but basically, one theory is that perhaps it was used to chloroform uh, Darlie, and perhaps that is why she did not wake up when the injuries were inflicted. Perhaps this was a sexually motivated crime. Perhaps they looked in and saw Darlie sleeping on the sofa, didn't realize the kids were on the ground until they broke in. Um, perhaps...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: They put chloroform on the sock, put it on her face um, after killing the kids, had to dispose of the sock, you know. It's just a theory. Some people say, "Well, you would have smelled the chloroform. There would have been a burn on her mouth." Some people say "No, chloroform has a really short half-life. You would not have smelled it." So you know, I don't know, um, but that is just one thing that I thought was a little intriguing.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Big... Definitely intriguing.
Christine Schiefer: Definitely intriguing. But the major question remained, if Darlie didn't do it, who would break into a house at random to stab three people with no apparent motive? Um, and Darlie's defense claims it was most likely a burglary gone wrong because the night of the attack, neither of the Routiers' cars were in their normal parking spot in the driveway. So it appeared as if no one was home.
Christine Schiefer: About a week before the murders, a neighbor actually saw someone in a black car parked outside the Routiers' home staring at the house, and when she approached the car, they sped off before she could talk to them. Perhaps someone was casing the house for a future robbery. And this was a very tight-knit neighborhood where people noticed unusual behavior, new people. The neighbor then saw the car again at 1:00 PM on the day of the murders and even made an official police report. There is no evidence that the police followed up on the report or considered it as a lead in the murder case. Um, they just said, "Oh, must be a weird coincidence. Anyway, uh, just let it be." So after the trial, Darin admitted he was so desperate to get out of debt that he actually had considered hiring someone to stage a break-in and steal valuables from their house so that he could make an insurance claim.
Em Schulz: Wow. Holy shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's a bombshell. He said it was on his mind. He brought it up in conversation around several people, but decided not to go through with it. And...
Em Schulz: Brought it up with several people? Mistake number one, my friend. Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Big mistake. And so he decided not to go through with it, allegedly, but it, it could be possible that he set it up and it went terribly wrong. Um, he said originally, it was supposed to be while they were on vacation. Maybe whoever got the idea in their head saw that the cars weren't in the driveway, thought, "Oh, they're on vacation. I'll do this burglary." I have no idea. Um, but um, as for motive, there was speculation that Darlie wanted to collect the boys' life insurance, but their life insurance was only a few thousand dollars and the funeral alone cost much more, so the money went to the funerals. And Darin's life insurance policy was nearly $800,000 and he wasn't attacked at all. He wasn't harmed in the slightest. So it doesn't make sense that she would kill her own kids and not her husband in that case.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Ultimately, the prosecution aimed to portray Darlie as a bitter woman trapped in debt, in an unhappy marriage, who didn't wanna be a mother anymore. Um, despite the 911 call, the descriptions of her nurses as, as being terrified, uh, she was described to the jury as strangely calm on the night of the murders, which I'm like probably shocked, but okay. Um...
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: And they said she didn't act the way a mother should when her children were murdered, which I would love to see you act that out, Mr. Policeman. Okay? Fuck you. Um, they said she didn't try to save her sons even though like she just saw blood and air coming out of her son's lungs when her husband tried to give CPR, so okay. Um, witnesses were called to discuss the fact that Darlie... This is gonna piss you off too. Discuss the fact that Darlie had breast implants and blonde bleached hair and didn't go to church a lot with her children.
Em Schulz: Gasp. Who said this?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, witnesses on the stand were brought... The, the uh, the prosecution brought...
Em Schulz: And those were the things... Those were the damning things the could say about her?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, it was basically like... We said character assassination. They were like, "Look at her, she went clubbing on Mother's Day," and she's like, "Yeah, with friends, like mom friends."
Em Schulz: I'd fucking go clubbing on Mother's Day, if I had children. Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: It's crazy.
Em Schulz: My God.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, the prosecution even showed the jury the video of Devon's birthday party at the grave and they told the jury, "You see, this is not the picture of a grieving mother," but...
Em Schulz: Gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Here's where I tell you the context of that video clip, which I did not learn until recently. And apparently...
Em Schulz: Oh okay, okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Earlier that day, before this kind of birthday party, which by the way was not Darlie's idea, actually, like it was someone else's idea entirely, I think her sister's, and her sister also brought the Silly String, so it was not like her idea, um, but this part never aired. Earlier that day, Darlie and her family had a somber, I think it was a two-hour prayer vigil at the side of the graves where she was just completely falling apart in pieces, like spent two hours in full grief and uh...
Em Schulz: Okay. Like you shouldn't have any tears left.
Christine Schiefer: Right. That part was never shown. So it looked like she just showed up and was like "Wee, birthday party, Silly String," but like there were hours before that where she was just sitting and grieving and, and falling to pieces and that part was never shown. Um, and indeed, the Silly String clip ended up being the most damning piece of evidence in the whole case, um, because Darlie's mother said they ended up deliberating on the Silly String. Silly String is not a lethal weapon, but they asked to watch... The jury asked to watch that video 11 times and it ultimately...
Em Schulz: 11?
Christine Schiefer: 11 times. And it ultimately kind of sealed the fate of, of Darlie. On February 1st, 1997, Darlie was found guilty and sentenced to death by lethal injection um, because her son was younger than six, and in the state of Texas, that is a uh, felony, capital punishment felony. Um, juror... One juror named Charles Stanford... By the way, the jurors... Some of these interviews are so fucking infuriating. Like one woman is like, "She had this blonde hair and these big boobs and wore tight clothes," and it's like, "Okay, you fucking woman-hating woman."
Em Schulz: I can't even...
Christine Schiefer: Like, fuck off. It pisses me off.
Em Schulz: I feel like brain flatlines at the thought of having to deal with someone like that. I don't even...
Christine Schiefer: Insanity. Insanity.
Em Schulz: I don't even have the words 'cause I, I, I would have to dumb them down way too much.
Christine Schiefer: Even if she was guilty, like that's fucking irrelevant, you know. Like...
Em Schulz: It's still irrelevant, yeah, no matter what.
Christine Schiefer: It's still irrelevant. So one juror, Charles Stanford, said the jury watched the birthday party video 11 times during deliberation and only later did he see the footage of the prayer service and he actually said, "Had we been shown this other tape so that we'd been able to see the whole picture of what happened that day, I believe I would not have voted to convict Mrs. Routier."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So like he literally said, "If I had seen that, I don't think I would have you know, pegged her as guilty."
Em Schulz: Right. Oof. That's...
Christine Schiefer: So there are those believe that perhaps Darin himself was the murderer, or maybe he at least knows more than he's letting on, especially with the burglary schemes he had considered. Um, in a 2002 issue of Texas Monthly, reporter Skip Hollandsworth wrote, "When I told Darin that the complete truth might help get his wife a new trial, he insisted that he wanted to do what he could for Darlie, 'But I don't wanna end up with some kind of bullshit charges brought against me either. I don't wanna help her at the expense of my life.'"
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And the thought there, reading between the lines, is like maybe he does know something that could get him in a lot of trouble and he doesn't even wanna go there and risk you know, going to prison himself. So Darin and Darlie eventually divorced in 2011, which Darin said was a mutually painful decision. And he ended up raising their youngest son Drake in a new home after the bank foreclosed on their house during the trial. And he routinely took Drake to visit Darlie in prison. And believe it or not, as if things can't get worse, as a child, Drake was diagnosed with cancer but has since recovered. Um...
Em Schulz: Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like...
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, I'm glad he's okay now.
Christine Schiefer: One thing after another. And fortunately, according to Darin, he has had a mostly normal and happy childhood against all odds, which is great.
Em Schulz: Against all odds. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The case remains obviously extremely polarizing. People are either staunchly for Darlie or against her. It's hard for people to stay on the fence about this one. Darlie and her defense team have filed appeals over the years, but she remains in prison on death row. And as of, as of 2023, she continues to maintain her innocence. Um, all along, her family and Darin have stood by her side and are positive that Darlie is innocent and that somewhere there's a man who's gotten away with an unimaginable crime. And that's the story of Darlie Routier.
Em Schulz: That's a good reason to drink.
Christine Schiefer: Doozy. Also, my dad is downstairs, so I...
Em Schulz: Okay. You're fine. Have fun with your father. And um, thank you for really just finding a way to emotionally wreck all of us and then bail. That's...
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome.
Em Schulz: You're like a common straight man. No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's what they say about me. That's my claim to fame.
Em Schulz: Uh... And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
