[intro music]
Em Schulz: Welcome to this day and this episode.
Christine Schiefer: [claps] Thank you. You did a great job.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] Umm, Christine, I'm just feeling very sing-songy, but tell me about your reasons why you drink. How's your mental health, physical health, days, the days amongst you?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, fine.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Like the sands of the hourglass. [laughter] Okay, so...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] What the fuck? [laughter] Umm, fine. I'm fine. We have a big deadline coming up...
Em Schulz: Uh huh.
Christine Schiefer: That we can't really talk about yet, and it's making me want to rip my eyeballs out and jump off a bridge.
Em Schulz: I understand.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so...
Em Schulz: I also wanna jump off a bridge.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I'm kind of...
Em Schulz: Maybe we can tag team and discuss an extension.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Let's do that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That was easy. I guess I could have texted you last night when I was having a mental breakdown.
Em Schulz: I was also having a, a menty B, so, uh.
Christine Schiefer: A little menty B. Umm, anyway...
Em Schulz: Just like a cute little one.
Christine Schiefer: You just made me feel better. So thank you. Uh, I'm doing great, Em. Thank you. I just wanted to give a little shout out 'cause Eva reminded us, uh, that we do have new merch on our merch store.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And our wonderful merch, uh, folks are so good at getting like, season like stuff out every couple months. So, uh, we've been having a lot of fun, uh, helping with designs and stuff, but and brainstorming, but we always forget to mention it 'cause it's so regular that they get updated now that I feel like we never think to mention it. Umm, but yeah, if you wanna check out our merch, you should go to atwwdmerch.com. I'm wearing, umm, I was gonna wear the goosecam, I'm so annoyed I didn't wear the goosecam today, but I wore the little witchy.
Em Schulz: I literally was wearing, I was wearing it last night. Umm, I also got...
Christine Schiefer: I was too!
Em Schulz: I got...
Christine Schiefer: That's why I didn't wear it. It smells.
Em Schulz: Oh. Hmm. I believe that.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I've shared it since then.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I had, I was wearing my cauldron shirt. I was getting all funky with it. I actually wore it as my theme shirt to some Halloween events, uh, recently. I know it's like mid-November right now when you hear this, but...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. Yeah. Okay. So this is a Halloween launch, but we forgot to mention it till after Halloween, so that's pretty on brand for us, I would say. Umm...
Em Schulz: So if you're still feeling in the, in the creepy mood, umm, before Thanksgiving...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And you wanna know how stupid I am? Before we record, I said, "Eva, will this, if, if I mention it on this episode, will it, it won't get there in time for Halloween, right?" And then I'm like, Eva's like, "Umm, it comes out November 11th," and I was like, or whatever date, and I was like, "Okay, by next Halloween, it should get to you. So... "
Em Schulz: I like how you were...
Christine Schiefer: If you wanna look at it...
Em Schulz: I like how you were like, "Uh, will this gets to them before Halloween?" when we recorded our Halloween episode like weeks ago. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like weeks ago. Like on what planet am I talking? I have no idea. But we, there's a, a goosecam that Kirky from Workies who did our logo, uh, designed this goosecam poster in like two different color schemes. Umm, and it's like a crew neck baggy sweatshirt. It's my favorite thing. And it says like, instead of like R.L. Stein, it says E.M. Christine and it's like a goosecam, like kind of a, it looks like a, like the bird, like a Hitchcock poster sort of, umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah it's like a, like the cover of a Goosebumps book.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah! Yes. The cover of a Goosebumps book. That's the right way to put it. And it's like in '90s retro color. Umm, it's really nice. So anyway, I just wanna mention our merch since we don't give it many shout-outs. Uh, but go to atwwdmerch.com.
Em Schulz: Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, how are you?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I feel like you really dodged the how are you question, but umm...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I'm good at that, unless you call me out on it and then suddenly everyone knows.
Em Schulz: How, how was your, umm, anniversary that happened recently?
Christine Schiefer: Oh! It was great. Thank you for all the, the tips. Umm, I texted Em, or I talked to Em the day before and I, or two days before and I said, "Ah, I'm panicking. I don't know what to do for my anniversary." It's on Friday the 13th, and I wanted to do something scary. Uh, and so Em sent me some ideas and we ended up going, a lot of them were sold out, 'cause it was, I was so late on everything, but I was ended up doing a, umm, booking a, a haunted downtown Cincinnati tour that I'd never done, and we got to go into an old children's theater and use EMF readers and like...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: You know, talk to the spirits there, umm.
Em Schulz: Did you, when they, when they gave you the EMF detector, were you like, "I've been there."
Christine Schiefer: I was like, no, I went like this. "Oh, cool, It has lights." [laughter] And Blaise was like, "Stop pretend, stop being, you're making it weird." Umm.
Em Schulz: Blaise was like, "You probably own one of these." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's like, "Why are you acting?" I don't know, I wanted to be like... There were only four people total on the tour and the other two were really quiet, so I felt like I had to kind of, which nobody asked me to, but I felt like I had to overcompensate for...
Em Schulz: Something.
Christine Schiefer: Quietness. Yeah. I don't know. Umm, but it was fun. I, uh, thank you for sending me all those tips, those links and ideas.
Em Schulz: You're welcome. I'm glad they were not used, but I appreciate.
Christine Schiefer: They were one of the ones you sent. I...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: That's where I booked it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I see. I see. I see. Well, I'm glad that it worked out. I, umm, I... There's nothing I love more than planning a date, so.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I was like, "Why haven't I utilized your services sooner?"
Em Schulz: Argh, I would love to just be someone, I don't know what the, I, I don't think the job exists, but if I could be someone that just plans dates for people, that...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I think you could probably make that a thing.
Em Schulz: That'd be a great job. I love it so much.
Christine Schiefer: I would pay for that. I mean, I wouldn't pay for it 'cause you'd let me do it for free, but uh...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think other people would pay for it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I would love it. Especially 'cause I, I, not that I think I've got like the low-down on like all the cool spots, but I definitely have the low-down on all the weird spots. So like if you want a weird date.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you know that you need stuff that, like, I feel like, you know the, you can find the stuff that's not just like Googling things in blank city today. You know what I mean? Like, you, you can do the deeper dive and really parse through, uh, the options.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a travel agent, but a date agent or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But a date agent. That sounds so cool too.
Em Schulz: That's me.
Christine Schiefer: A date agent.
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, that's, you know, in a, in a world nearby, that's probably my gig and I'm really appreciating the praise, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like that's a pretty on, on point, uh, role for you to play, so.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Good job.
Em Schulz: Umm, what was I gonna say to you? What was I gonna say to you?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I, I miss you though.
Em Schulz: I miss you. I, I'm having some, umm, burping issues today. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Umm, so if you see me running away...
Christine Schiefer: I don't miss you anymore. Nevermind.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] If you see me running away from the microphone, that's why because, umm, I discovered a cheese that I like.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: And I ate a lot of it and my body's reacting.
Christine Schiefer: I, we buried the lede on this one. What? Tell me everything.
Em Schulz: For Allison's, one of her birthdays 'cause she's getting two this year. Umm, long story.
Christine Schiefer: Uh huh. Uh huh.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: We've talked about it on the show. Don't worry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. Good. Umm, so for her first birthday, I, a lot of things happened, but I, I also made her like umm, like a Halloween themed charcuterie board.
Christine Schiefer: Cute.
Em Schulz: And I bought a lot of cheese, man. And I was like, "I guess I'm gonna have to help her eat this, so I might as well like try... "
Christine Schiefer: Charcuterie.
Em Schulz: Try each of them. Yeah, charcuterie.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And, umm, I, it was a, I think it was like, it was, it had to be like the most boring cheese for me to actually like it 'cause I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't find any cheese boring, so, umm, you know.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Tell me more.
Em Schulz: I think it was a Havarti.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's classic. That was my favorite as a kid. That was, I always ate that.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter] And it's like, it was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's kind of like entry level cheese.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think that's...
Christine Schiefer: Creamy. It's mild.
Em Schulz: Yes. I, cream, it was very creamy. I was like, "Oh, I feel like this is like coating my mouth. I don't know how I feel about this."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But it was, umm, when paired with salami, it was pretty damn good. So, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I gotta say that is a classic and I approve.
Em Schulz: Okay, good. And I, 'cause I really, I think, I don't know if I'll ever go further than entry level cheese. I think like...
Christine Schiefer: That's fine. Listen, I didn't think you would even get there, so I'm thrilled for you right now, Em. By the way, if you're like, "What the fuck is going on?" Em is not like into cheese, which I know is shocking and jarring.
Em Schulz: I can't stand it.
Christine Schiefer: I should have given you a trigger warning. But Em doesn't like cheese. Just doesn't like it. I don't know what to tell you.
Em Schulz: Between the two of us, we make a great charcuterie board 'cause I love the meats and you love the cheeses.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Em eats the cold cuts. I eat the cheese. Eva just is like, "Can you guys get on stage 'cause the show's about to start?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And we're like, "We're busy."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Up until this weekend, the only cheese I'll eat is mozzarella, which is also very kinda bland compared to others.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Very melty.
Em Schulz: So now I've got two in the arsenal.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, listen, that is, uh, a win in my book, so I'm very proud of you.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Well, my body's reacting 'cause I've never had this much cheese in my entire life, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. Also, you're lactose intolerant. I forgot to mention that.
Em Schulz: I ate like a whole block by myself or something, so I'm really going through it today.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Ah. With that, Christine, I have a story for you that I, uh, we don't get a lot of these these days and when we stumble upon one, I'm very excited...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And because it's so good, I'm scared we've done it before, but I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fun, I love these.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Your anxiety like sprinkles a little more excitement into the episode. Umm...
Em Schulz: It's, it's a mystery for the ages. I feel like maybe someone, if I have covered it, maybe someone's recently listened to the episode and you can call me up. But this does, this feels like new information to me, so maybe it'll feel like new information to other people. Umm, this is the Black Monk of Pontefract.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I've heard about this from Astonishing Legends years ago, but I don't think you've covered it.
Em Schulz: I don't think I've covered it either. I didn't check.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why I would know 'cause I don't know any better than you do, uh, but.
Em Schulz: Well, you know, that does make me feel a little better. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I don't remember it from our show, but I-I have heard of it on, umm, Astonishing Legends.
Em Schulz: I've heard about it for a long time. People have been suggesting it for a while, but I, for some reason, it overwhelmed me. I don't know why I think the name Pontefract was for me a...
Christine Schiefer: It's a very intense name. Yeah. I feel like that would, that would alarm me as well.
Em Schulz: Also, I think I just heard like the Black Monk of Pontefract and I thought like, "Oh, it's just like a shadow figure of a monk and the story won't be very long."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And so I just...
Christine Schiefer: Well, to be honest, I don't even remember what it is, so to me, I'm like, "Is it just a shadow... I don't remember."
Em Schulz: I feel like there's, again, we've talked about this before, but so many stories where it's just like a shadow people are seeing and that's it, and I'm like, "Ugh, the content, I don't know if it'd be that great." But...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right.
Em Schulz: So I kind of pushed this one away for a while, but man, I see why everyone was telling me to do it, so.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready.
Em Schulz: Alright, so this is the Black Monk of Pontefract.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: The, so Pontefract, umm, is an old...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait. We gotta do it at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. On go.
Em Schulz: One...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you do it.
Em Schulz: Oh, on go? Oh, okay. On go. 1, 2, 3, go. [soda can cracks]
Christine Schiefer: Beautiful. Let's crack into it, baby. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, umm, Pontefract, which I, I, I am saying right according to YouTube. Uh, Pontefract is an old town in West Yorkshire, England and it is Latin for broken bridge.
Christine Schiefer: Whoo.
Em Schulz: It, uh, fun fact, sits on an old Roman road that has time and time again, uh, unearthed a lot of historical artifacts...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Including a Roman era chariot, which...
Christine Schiefer: I wanna go metal detecting.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Which like a whole fucking chariot? Like what, what earthquake...
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: Brought that up to the surface? Umm, they've also found items from the Neolithic and Iron Ages and...
Christine Schiefer: Come on.
Em Schulz: They've discovered that, uh, this area is also part of a neolithic henge.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Umm, there was also...
Christine Schiefer: What's that?
Em Schulz: Like Stonehenge, I think. I don't know, I have no idea what a henge is but they kept saying henge. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I'll just pretend like I know.
Em Schulz: It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, oh, a prehistoric monument consisting of a circle of stone or wooden uprights. Okay. So yeah, Stonehenge is like a circle of rocks or wood.
Em Schulz: Circle of, circle of rocks.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Also in this area there used to be Pontefract Castle, which, uh, is now in ruins, but it was at one point, one of the most powerful forts in the country, and allegedly was built on Anglo-Saxon burial grounds. So bam, talk about powerful spiritually.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la.
Em Schulz: Until the 16th century, there was a medieval priory here where monks lived, umm, and then that was later destroyed. But in the 1960s, a house was built here and it sat where old gallows used to be.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. Sorry. Jesus. Lord have mercy.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Blaise is running the...
Em Schulz: Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. Blaise is running the dryer and the, my door just started like vibrating on its hinges and like banging back and forth.
Em Schulz: Girl, please. Please.
Christine Schiefer: Scared, scared me so bad. Okay.
Em Schulz: Honestly...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: That was, that was Blaise's fault. That wasn't you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. He like...
Em Schulz: I'm taking it out on the wrong person.
Christine Schiefer: No, but he knows better at this point. Like every time I record, he runs the damn dryer. It's like some weird prank of his.
Em Schulz: How silly.
Christine Schiefer: I guess it works. I really thought a ghost was here.
Em Schulz: By the way, have you seen any more ghosts since you've discovered all those old haunted pictures?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Okay. Good.
Christine Schiefer: No, but I, I just have gotten more attached to them ever since I brought them to to you.
Em Schulz: Ugh. That is terrifying. [laughter] It's like it's working.
Christine Schiefer: I think, I think it's working. Oh god.
Em Schulz: Uh, okay. So a house was built here in the 1960s. Umm, it sounds like this house might have been sectioned into apartments. Maybe it was one whole house at the time and then was later sectioned into apartments.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. That's what happened to my house.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I don't, I don't know if it was apartments yet. It sounds like it was just the one family living here right now. But a house was built there in the '60s and Jean and Joe Pritchard move in with their kids.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, they have a 15-year-old and a 12-year-old named Phillip and Diane.
Christine Schiefer: Cute.
Em Schulz: I feel like Diane is such a specific era name.
Christine Schiefer: It is! I always think that about that name and like Sherry or there's a few names where I'm like, "They are so in their decade." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Like if you met someone with that name, you know when they were born, you know.
Christine Schiefer: You know. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You know what's really tricking me is all these people with fucking babies with old names. That's really throwing me 'cause now...
Christine Schiefer: I effing love it. It's my favorite thing to see babies called like...
Em Schulz: Ugh, I can't stand it.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. You can't stand it? I love it.
Em Schulz: I can't stand it. I don't, I don't like the old names for new babies trend. I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I love it.
Em Schulz: I know. I know. But we have different tastes on everything. But it like...
Christine Schiefer: It's true.
Em Schulz: But I feel like at one point, I could...
Christine Schiefer: You don't like cheese and I feel like I automatically win this argument. Sorry.
Em Schulz: That's fair. I feel like if I heard the name Beatrice, up until yesterday, I knew exactly when you were born. Now it could be any fucking day.
Christine Schiefer: You were born two days ago. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're gen alpha. But, but think about it. B, what a cute little nickname.
Em Schulz: Nah.
Christine Schiefer: I love it. If you named your child Beatrice and you're like about to cry, I'm all over it. I love it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think you did a great job naming your child 'cause if somebody were on our show and said, Leona, ugh, I'd probably burst into tears.
Em Schulz: No, it's not anyone else. It's fully me because I have a five-year-old's taste in everything. Like, I like, I like boring names.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you wanna name your child Megan secretly and you're just not admitting it. Like, that's how basic that is.
Em Schulz: That's not true but you're on the right path.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I know.
Em Schulz: Like I would pick a boring name.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I was gonna say other names, and then I was like, now I'm gonna insult everyone else out there, so I'm keeping my mouth shut and sticking with Meaghan.
Em Schulz: If I ever had a kid, the name will be like incredibly boring compared to like people at least trying to keep up with trends, you know? So I...
Christine Schiefer: I guess it depends on if you're parenting with someone else 'cause I don't know if you win that argument, you know.
Em Schulz: Allison and I seem to agree on names. At least we both like boring names, but that's also assuming we'll have children and that's still up in the air, so, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, yeah, I said with someone else. I, listen, I'm, I'm not making any judgment calls here. I think you should name your child Meghhhhhhan with six H's if you really want to. And I think we'll all support you even though we won't approve.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's fine. You know what I think is the ugliest name I've ever heard in my life? Say it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I do. You know what, Em? I do. Why don't you announce it to everyone?
Em Schulz: Christine. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know what?
Em Schulz: Oh good, now the joke's over. Okay. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I will name your child Chauncey Bliss and you're gonna have to deal with it.
Em Schulz: No, I think, umm, hmm, should I say it? Maybe we would name him...
Christine Schiefer: Zachary?
Em Schulz: Bartholomew Crispin.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Bartholomew Crispin.
Em Schulz: That's an inside joke that nobody's aware of yet but, umm.
Christine Schiefer: You'll get aware of it eventually, I promise.
Em Schulz: You'll get aware of it.
Christine Schiefer: And that was a good call. Even Eva's like, "What the are they talking about?"
Em Schulz: Even Eva doesn't know what we're talking about.
Christine Schiefer: This is a deep cut.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Bartholomew Crispin. Umm, if you would like, how about you all comment what you think Bartholomew Crispin is...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you'll all be wrong. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: You'll never guess.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: It would have to be Bartholomew Crispin Jr, wouldn't it?
Em Schulz: Gross.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Vomitous. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Everyone feels like the third wheel right now not knowing what going on.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, Eva and everyone else.
Em Schulz: Okay. Anyway, it's better than me like just yelling at all the Beatrices who are listening in right now. But, umm.
Christine Schiefer: It is, I'm not gonna lie, it's better than that. You're right.
Em Schulz: To be fair, I was, uh, not even to be fair, but fun fact, I was supposed to have an old lady name. I was, but then.
Christine Schiefer: What was your name supposed to be?
Em Schulz: My name was supposed to be Ester.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I love that name. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sure you do. But I am thinking like, "Oh, I'm really glad I wasn't named that." So my mom went with a different E name, but I was named...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what is, okay, what would your nickname be if you, you know, if that had been your name?
Em Schulz: My middle name. I don't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well, your middle name's not gonna work either for purposes of, hmm.
Em Schulz: I think it, I, I have no idea, I would've gone with a completely different name.
Christine Schiefer: Terry.
Em Schulz: Ester. Tur... Turd.
Christine Schiefer: Terry.
Em Schulz: No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'd call you Turd. Okay, little turd, let's keep going.
Em Schulz: [laughter] No, I don't know, it's just, I, I know you would've eaten it up if Ester could have been a name for you, but for me, I...
Christine Schiefer: Hilarious. I would love it.
Em Schulz: For me, I've got a, I had a, I got a more maybe like modern name and so I, I appreciate that as someone who likes modern names.
Christine Schiefer: You got a very our generation name, for sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah. My name was the, like number one name for like a decade. It was actually, it was not original at all, so I don't know what I'm into about that, but whatever. Umm, yowza. Pontefract Castle. Now it's 1960s. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So in the nine... Yeah, we were telling the story. Okay, so in the 1960s, a house was built here. Jean and Joe Pritchard move in with Philip and obviously, born in the 50s, Diane. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, and very quickly, activity in the house began. So in August, 1966, the parents and Diane go on a vacation while their son, Philip stays behind with his grandma.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Grandma's name is Sarah. To me, that is too modern of a name for a grandma. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that is weird.
Em Schulz: Which is wild 'cause Sarah's such an old name, but it's continually becomes modern.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but I guess, it was probably a big, it was definitely a big name when we were kids, so it probably, seems doesn't fit. Like, if your grandma was Meaghann, you'd be like, "Huh?" You know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, there's some people in like that are our age now and I'm like, "One day you're gonna be like, like Grandpa Dylan." What?
Christine Schiefer: Grandpa Chad. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Umm, okay, so Sarah, uh, is the name of the grandma. So she's staying at the house with Philip. And now at 11:30 in the morning, grandma Sarah is inside the house when out of nowhere, a gust of wind rattles the windows and slams the door shut.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, now would've been the time to turn the dryer on, Blaise.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I know. I was thinking.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like...
Em Schulz: Two more minutes, you would've really nailed it. When Philip comes back in from the garden, grandma Sarah mentions the weather, uh, is like, oh wow, the wind is really strong right now. But Philip says, oh, there's no wind outside. What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Classic.
Em Schulz: So these gusts of wind are indoors. Later, Sarah is knitting and she notices a strange haze is in the house and she notices that it's like a powder floating around her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And she and Philip look for what it could be, and they assume it must be like plaster crumbling from the ceiling or something, but it's a white cloud that's weirdly staying in the middle of the room. It's not falling and it's not going above their heads, it's just still.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. That's a new one.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I thought so. I was like, oh, something original. Umm, but the white cloud, so it was weirdly still, and so Grandma Sarah walked across the road to go get her other daughter who lives in the neighborhood. Her name is Aunt Marie. So Grandma Sarah and Aunt Marie are staying with Phillip.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: She, uh, goes to get Aunt Marie. Marie comes over and she actually says that her mom looks like a snowman because she's covered with all this white stuff all over her and she...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Asbestos.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anthrax. Nothing good can come of this.
Em Schulz: You know, asbestos might've been something they looked into later, yeah. Umm, but, uh, Marie ends up, uh, going into the house herself to see why her mom is covered in this stuff when she comes over.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So she goes into the house and she sees the mist herself, and I guess while they, while Grandma Sarah left, in the time it took Grandma Sarah to leave and come back, the mist had actually fallen and it looked like there was a white film all over the furniture and even in their tea. Ugh, disgusting.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. That's so gross.
Em Schulz: Next Aunt Marie walks into the kitchen and slips in a random puddle of water in the middle of the kitchen.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: She cleans it up and she, she's still looking at the floor as she cleans this up. Cleans it up, and moments later, the puddle reforms on its own.
Christine Schiefer: Eughhh.
Em Schulz: Hate that. Hate it. Uh, then more puddles form throughout the kitchen. So like, what like, I feel like that's like a really like shitty old video game where like, you have to clean the puddle and then it grows. It's like, it's like Whac-A-Mole. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I used to play, umm, fucking Rayman or something. I think it was Rayman or no, no, it was a fucking firefighter PlayStation game. And like, you would be putting out fires and it sucked 'cause this, like, you always ended up like dying in this fire 'cause you're trying... It instilled so much anxiety in me as a child. But anyway, it was basically like, "Oh, another fire. You got it. Oh, another fire." [laughter] And it was like, man, you're just, I mean, literally putting out fires, like that's the game.
Em Schulz: It's kind of like us the first year of podcasting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But yeah. I mean, no comment, but yes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so that's what it sounds like. Another puddle to mop up.
Em Schulz: Umm, so assuming that the water was coming from a burst pipe, she peeled back some of the linoleum, which I love that it's her sister's house, and she's just peeling up the floor, but...
Christine Schiefer: She's like, what the fuck is wrong with your kitchen?
Em Schulz: [laughter]? So she peels back some of the linoleum to check the floor to see if the water's coming up through there and it's bone dry.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: There's nothing there. So the puddle is just appearing for no reason.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: Umm, another one of their in-laws comes in, uh, Aunt Enid, and...
Christine Schiefer: That's your other name.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I, you know, I don't hate that name, but I think it's 'cause I just watched, uh, Wednesday Adams. The Wednesday show.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I was like that's really specific for you to have a different opinion about, but okay.
Em Schulz: It was, I think I had a different opinion at the beginning of that series and then as I watched it, I was like, oh, this name's grown on me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, it grows on you.
Em Schulz: So apparently their whole fucking family lives in this neighborhood, by the way, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What the heck.
Em Schulz: Another, another in-Law, Aunt Enid comes over, uh, to investigate the puddles with them, but they find nothing. They actually even had someone come out to check the pipes to see if something was happening that they weren't aware of, and the best that, like the plumber could come up with was that this was due to condensation. Like, girl, like how is condensation...
Christine Schiefer: I studied science. I know what condensation is.
Em Schulz: The condensation. Yeah, I don't... Umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sorry. [laughter] I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Don't be sorry. You have nothing to apologize for.
Em Schulz: Okay. Uh, yeah, I feel like we know enough about condensation to know that it would not just only affect one little area on a floor and become a puddle, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Instantly. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they were like, okay, even the plumber doesn't know what's going on. Cool. Get him outta here. So eventually, eventually the pools stopped forming and both of the aunts end up just going home. So now it's back to Grandma Sarah and Philip in the house. I guess they were like, I don't know, the, the drama's over, so I guess I don't need to be here anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Boring.
Em Schulz: Which is exactly what I would've done.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it is what you would have done.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Call me when something juicy happens." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you guys wanna order pizza? Em's just like, I'm out.
Em Schulz: It's like the fun's over. I have to go home now...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, do something interesting.
Em Schulz: To my dry house.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah, sit in your weird puddle kitchen.
Em Schulz: [laughter] To my non-problematic house, okay? Call me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Later that night, Grandma Sarah goes back into the kitchen with Phillip and the, they have a tea dispenser, which sounds like a great fucking gift. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Us.
Em Schulz: Wink wink, nudge nudge. Umm, and the tea dispenser, I guess already had like tea loaded into it, but they go into the kitchen and the button on the tea dispenser keeps pressing itself on off, on off, on off, on off.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And it keeps pressing over and over until all the tea dispenses all over the counter. So annoying.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I figured out where your puddles are coming from.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And the plumber couldn't figure that one out.
Em Schulz: And as all the tea, once it, once it had been emptied of tea, it still kept pressing on off, on off, on off.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: Which I guess you could equate in some way to like a malfunction. I, I don't know enough about machines. I don't think that's a good enough reason but I guess if you wanted to be a skeptic, you could say there was like a faulty wire that was making the button go why.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I wonder if it, it was probably not even an electric one.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. It was in the '60s.
Christine Schiefer: It was probably just like you make a tea kettle and you have like a spout.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Okay. So that's...
Christine Schiefer: Which makes it's kinda creepier 'cause then it's like you have to manually press it.
Em Schulz: Someone's hand had to be there. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yikes. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna get you, since you had requested it as a gift in 1960s tea dispenser that you have to manually load and press.
Em Schulz: Aw, no thank you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, it'd be a faulty electronic one then.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. You can get me a gift card to Starbucks and they can handle all the dispensing.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Fine.
Em Schulz: Umm, so yeah, the button keeps going over and over and which like, so inconvenient. It sounds like they were about to get ready for bed and now they have to clean the entire, it's not even just the counters, it's, you know, it's seeped under everything and never ends.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, never ends.
Em Schulz: Gets behind the, on the floor.
Christine Schiefer: But you know me, I went to bed and you are like, "Goddammit Christine, that's gonna leave a stain." I'm like, "I don't care."
Em Schulz: You would be like, "Oh, let me go upstairs and find a rag." And you would go upstairs and go to bed and I'm standing...
Christine Schiefer: And watch TikTok, yeah.
Em Schulz: By a pile of rags. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. You get it.
Em Schulz: I know the second you leave the room, you're not coming back until it's handled.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good. As long as you understand what's happening. That's great.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: As soon as you say, "Let me just," I'm already already over it.
Christine Schiefer: Let me just... [laughter] I'll be right back. That's when you know I'll never return.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You'll see me in a few days. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, you say, I'll be right back as you bring your phone charger upstairs. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: As I, [laughter] as I put on my sleep mask. Okay. Bye.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So it keeps pressing down and down and it just makes a mess everywhere. Then as they're cleaning this up, they're like, oh, could today get any worse? Boom. They hear a big crash.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And it's a potted plant that had been thrown up the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Huh?
Em Schulz: That's, that's too much for me because I could have rationalized if it fell down the stairs like...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: But even, but even then, not really, because if it's a potted plant, that shit's heavy. But you could, you could rationalize it better.
Christine Schiefer: Up the stairs is like really confusing.
Em Schulz: It's really it's intentional. It's like rationalize this bitch. That's what it sounds like to me.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're like, this is such a mess, and it's like, I'll show you a mess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, well, you don't like the tea all over the counters? Well, maybe you'll like all the soil on your stairs.
Christine Schiefer: Some earthworms. Okay, there's probably no earthworms in it, but, uh, you never know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Could be.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Do you have a plant?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're all dead. I can't figure out why. Umm, anyway.
Em Schulz: It's all the worms in there.
Christine Schiefer: It just keep putting worms in it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, umm, they hear this big crash, potted plant has been thrown upstairs. The pot, by the way, the plant I guess fell out on, on its travel, but the pot itself made it all the way up to the landing, which is actually pretty impressive, 'cause I couldn't do that with my own human arms.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but the fact that something was strong enough, that quickly too, to throw a whole ass plant up the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: Very unsettling.
Em Schulz: They go back into the kitchen and the cupboards begin rattling so violently that the neighbors reported hearing the noise.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: And when the activity stopped, they went upstairs for bed. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: That's, listen, I get it. At a certain point you reached like uh, you are like, cannot compute anymore. I'm tired.
Em Schulz: I like to think that they were already like so delirious or something so they could justify like we must be seeing things.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe let's check on this again tomorrow and really assess what's going on.
Em Schulz: Like, everything's got a reason. We'll figure it out tomorrow.
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
Em Schulz: So they go upstairs to bed, umm, after there's just like dirt everywhere and tea everywhere, and the neighbors are calling for noise complaints and they're like, "This all will have a reason, for sure."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm, as Grandma Sarah is tucking Phillip into bed, which love that they're still not even sharing a room at least.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, as she's tucking him in, his door starts swinging open and shut.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Open and shut. Open and shut.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Thank god, she's, she gets some reason to her because then Sarah goes, "Okay, let's get the fuck outta here." And they run to Aunt Marie's.
Christine Schiefer: Phew. Poor Aunt Marie.
Em Schulz: Aunt Marie's like, "Oh my god, I already left you. What? What do you want?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What do you, what do you, listen, I'm sorry I'm in a bad mood, but you just made me clean up tea for two hours.
Em Schulz: It's like I was cleaning puddles. I mopped your kitchen like 20 times today. What do you want?
Christine Schiefer: And now you want tea 'cause you're outta of tea? Got it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you want a plant because you're out of worms? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You're out of plants. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, she calls her husband, Vic, and or her husband Vic is there. He calls the police...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Because he's like, obviously, a person has to be in your house. Umm, and uh, they all go over to the house with three officers to search the house, but they find nothing. This is, sorry, I just burped again. Sorry, the cheese. Excuse me.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] We're so professional.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry. Jack edit that out. So Vic suggests that they go to the neighbor, another fucking neighbor. Do they all know each other? What's going on here? Umm, but there's a guy in the neighborhood called Mr. O'Donald and they're like, let's call him because he's really into ghosts.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I, I like where Vic's head is. He is like, let's call the police and then get someone with some real information.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, we never know, we need a whole team on our side.
Em Schulz: I feel like Aunt Marie is you and Vic is Blaise, and I feel like Aunt Marie is like, "I don't know what's going on, but there's like, there's puddles and worms everywhere, and like the door keeps opening." And Vic is like, "Call the police."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you're like, "Oh, that didn't even occur to me."
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna bother them though, you know.
Em Schulz: It's so late at night.
Christine Schiefer: They might be busy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, okay, so this is where, uh, Vic/Blaise says, let's call Mr. O'Donald. He'll figure it out. So they go and knock on Mr. O'Donald's door in the middle of the night. I can't even imagine what he thought was going on. And they...
Christine Schiefer: He's probably ready to fucking go with his go bag, his ghost go bag, you know, his ghost bag.
Em Schulz: He's like, I've been waiting for this moment my whole life.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, finally, you got the hint.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Finally some traction in this neighborhood.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they knock on his door, he follows them back to the house and they sit around waiting for something to happen, but there's no activity. So Mr. O'Donald gets up to leave and, uh, he says that it's very normal for activity to not be reliable, umm, when working with poltergeist, and he assumed it was a poltergeist. He said they do funny things. They're very fond of tearing up photographs, I believe. And as he said that a frame came crashing down off the wall and shattered.
Christine Schiefer: You're onto something.
Em Schulz: The picture was Joe and Jean's wedding portrait.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Yike-aroo-neys. But I, yeah, he must have felt so validated in that moment. He was like, I fucking told you.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, wow, I'm nailing this whole thing.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] It's like, this is like my first gig. Like, I'm doing a really good job.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: So, so now the pictures are falling off the walls. The next day, little Diane and her parents, Joe and Jean, they come home and like, I, can you imagine coming home and finding out that not only did your mother-in-law stay here to watch your son...
Christine Schiefer: I forgot they've been gone this whole time.
Em Schulz: They've been gone this whole goddamn time. Imagine finding out like, oh, how was it? Like, did you like fucking play Scrabble or something? No. Every single in-law you have and the neighbor and the police have all been here, and also there's puddles and tea and you can't even have plants here anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The tea's broken. Umm, the don't go up the stairs, you're gonna slip and fall on some worms. [laughter] It's a really bad situation.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So all of a sudden, they're home and they're like, I, I feel like they just are doing like a panoramic view of their home and it's just all a fucking mess.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a sitcom. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They're like, what happened? So they find out what happened, and they're saying like, there's been, you know, the windows are rattling, the doors are slamming. We've been hearing, knocking and crashes. So Joe, the father says, what kind of knocks? And at that moment there were three huge bangs that rattled throughout the house.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: And then coming in with a weird plot twist, nothing happens for the next two years.
Christine Schiefer: What?!
Em Schulz: Which like talk about, I don't even know what the psychological term is. Gaslighting maybe, but like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The parents come home, nothing happens.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, you guys can tell us if you broke the potted plant. Like, it's fine. They're like, you don't understand. We literally didn't.
Em Schulz: Phillip and grandma are eyeing each other like, what the fuck? Like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? I would be so pissed off.
Em Schulz: I would be like, they think that we came up with a fun little story to entertain ourselves while they were gone.
Christine Schiefer: Literally. I'd be so pissed.
Em Schulz: I would be fuming. I'd be fuming. So they have theirs though, because two years later, Jean is redecorating. Love that for her.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And Grandma Sarah is over and she starts hearing sounds again.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: And at this point, I feel like Jean probably thinks like, "Oh, my mom is looney tunes." Like she...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I would be worried.
Em Schulz: It was like, oh, now you're hearing things and you were the last one to hear things. So Jean's like, okay, don't worry about it. Like, it's not true. Just chill out. Later, Jean hears her own sound in the other room.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And she hears the sound. She goes up to see what happened. And as she's going to go upstairs, she sees Phillip's blanket that it's usually on his bed sitting at the bottom of the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's ominous.
Em Schulz: It's certainly, I mean, you do have a toddler. I mean, I know he's 15, but I know you probably just see things in places they shouldn't be all the time.
Christine Schiefer: It is usually my fault. So like, it's not surprising to me when things are out of place, but if it's like an odd, like I can see how that would be like, huh, something's not right.
Em Schulz: It's like, that's off putting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Although you maybe you, you, Christine would've just left your blanket downstairs by accident, when you're trying to run away from a situation and go to bed for the night.
Christine Schiefer: It's entirely possible. Exactly.
Em Schulz: She sees the blanket downstairs. She goes, that's weird. Umm, she grabs a blanket and goes to put it back, uh, in, in his room. And as she's walking away, she hears a louder sound.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: She goes to see what happened. And uh, now the blanket is down. Now her blanket is downstairs and like so it was Phillip...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, wait.
Em Schulz: Okay, so she heard a sound, Phillip's blanket was downstairs. She was like, that's weird.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Okay.
Em Schulz: Grabs it, puts it back on Phillip's bed. Walking away she hears another sound and looks downstairs and now her blanket is on the floor downstairs.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Why is it so loud, these blankets?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was like, what? Are these weighted blankets? What's going on?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] They're weighted blankets. I wonder if it's like, like a pop. Like they're like apparating, like in Harry Potter, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, maybe.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what the loud noise is about.
Em Schulz: Well, also, uh, there not only are is her blanket downstairs, but the, the louder sound that she did hear was that more potted plants had shattered.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought it was the blanket moving. Got it. Okay.
Em Schulz: You didn't know. I was just gonna let you ride that. Ride that out.
Christine Schiefer: I, I liked it while I was there, so it's okay.
Em Schulz: So yeah. Now more potted plants are being messed with. Umm, later that night, Jean notices that there's a shadow swaying in the dark.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like I beg to differ. No thank you. I would.
Christine Schiefer: No, I beg to differ also.
Em Schulz: I would about-face and get the hell outta there.
Christine Schiefer: Bye. Bye-Bye.
Em Schulz: So there's a shadow swaying in the dark. And remember, she'd been redecorating, so there's paintbrushes and everything all over the place. She then sees a paintbrush fly past her head as if someone was trying to throw it at her face.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And a bucket slams against the wall behind her.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: She realizes that the swaying shadow is actually a piece of wallpaper, thank god, but it's not attached to the wall. It's just a random piece of wallpaper floating in the middle of the air by itself.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: It's like as if someone's holding it or something.
Christine Schiefer: Like holding it. Ugh.
Em Schulz: As she reaches for it to see what's causing it to float, it drops to the ground by itself.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Then the broom in the corner floats into the air and starts moving.
Christine Schiefer: What's this, fucking Fantasia? What is happening?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This sounds like Fantasia, which is the scariest movie I've ever seen.
Em Schulz: You know, if they just looked at it as if it were Fantasia, they probably would've like not lost so much sleep. They would've been like...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: It's just Mickey Mouse. It's fine.
Christine Schiefer: It's just Disney World, I guess. I'm, yeah, I, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Suddenly the broom floats into the air and starts moving all by itself. Jean freaks out and the rest of the family rush into the hall to see what's going on. The noise starts happening, uh, now in Diane's room. So it's almost as if it followed her and then went into one of the kids' rooms.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: They start hearing noises in there. Things are being ripped off the walls. The things that are being ripped off the walls are being thrown out of the window...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: By themselves.
Christine Schiefer: This thing's pissed off now.
Em Schulz: Pissed off. And Joe the father, he slams the door shut and the whole family is just standing in the hallway hearing this going on in Diane's room.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: They hear banging in the room, they hear just like total chaos, and then they hear silence and then knocking on the other side of the door.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] [laughter] I hate that so much.
Em Schulz: A knock on the other side of the door, I can't think of anything more ominous. Like, like a ghost or an actual person. Like that's...
Christine Schiefer: That like gave me full creeps, full goosecam.
Em Schulz: And like then what? Now do you all go to bed? You're like, Diane, have a good night in, in your fucking room. What do you do?
Christine Schiefer: See ya. By the way, do you believe me now, mom?
Em Schulz: Right. Exactly. [laughter] Umm, so after that day, activity only increased, which I'm not surprised by at all.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, the cupboards and windows keep rattling. There's a constant banging, there's a constant drumming sound. At one point, the china cabinet, like I guess, falls over, or no, sorry, it doesn't fall over. The China cabinet stands still, but everything sitting in the china cabinet gets pulled out and dropped onto the floor.
Christine Schiefer: That would piss me off.
Em Schulz: And yet nothing broke. I feel like that's even eerier though because it's guaranteed to break if it's fine China.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's way creepy.
Em Schulz: And it just like bounced off the floor and just sat there.
Christine Schiefer: Yuck.
Em Schulz: A local paper hears about this because the neighbors are constantly complaining about the sounds coming from that house and they publish a story on the house and they named the poltergeist, Mr. Nobody.
Christine Schiefer: Eww!
Em Schulz: I can't imagine a worst name.
Christine Schiefer: That's the worst possible name.
Em Schulz: Mr. Nobody.
Christine Schiefer: The worst name.
Em Schulz: People start coming to the door to check it out for themselves because they've read this thing in the paper now and people just wanna come in and investigate. They're asking for anything they can do to go in and just spend an hour in this house. And...
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: The family does turn them all away 'cause they don't wanna like make a whole thing of it. Umm, but this is interesting though because I feel like a lot of skeptics usually use the theory that like, oh, well, it's a popular case, and you know, they, the family clearly wanted people to come in. They did it for attention or they did it for money or they did it for fame. But this family seemed to have no motive. Umm, they also didn't have a motive to even leave the house. Like the, a lot of, umm, stories, there's a lot of haunting cases, there's the theory that like, oh, well, they were having money problems and they couldn't get out of the lease or...
Christine Schiefer: Ah, they wanted a way out. Sure.
Em Schulz: Couldn't get out of the contract. But they had no reason to leave. They liked their house and then they even were refusing. When asked, they would refuse to move, umm, just because a ghost was there. They were very adamant about staying.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: On top of that, they were refusing investigators and reporters and visitors to come in and they wouldn't accept any payment for coverage. So they were just riding it out in this house and they were getting fame by accident.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's a point in their favor, I feel like.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I think so 'cause if you wanted out, I mean, you're getting the attention, just go away, you know? Like, move. Someone wants to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Listen, I'm kinda on their side at this point.
Em Schulz: Mr. O'Donald would wanna move in for sure, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's ready to pay more than you paid for the house.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So, uh, still they had to deal with the normal bullshit that was coming from this ghost. They had drawers and cabinets and their fridge dumping out contents onto the floor every day. Imagine like back in the day, wasn't milk in like a glass bottle? Can you imagine if it just, like now old milk is in your kitchen? Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And I mean, it's just a nightmare. Like I would, if I were the neighbor, I'd be like, I'm never going back over there. Or like the aunt would be like, I'm over it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'd be like, you come to me for dinner. I'm not going there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Tea time happens at my house now.
Em Schulz: Yeah, where I actually have teacups that I don't have to worry about flying across the room.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they're dealing with like the constant mess, the constant puddles. The lights are turning on and off every second. Eventually, they tape the switches and the lights still go on and off all the time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh god.
Em Schulz: The family thought about going like to a church for help, but their reverend said that exorcisms, uh, often made poltergeist cases worse and the bishop would probably not approve, which like, maybe he was trying to be a realist there, but he really was their only line of defense and he told them like fat chance, pretty much.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so they got kind of essentially turned away by the church helping them. And that's when things get even worse because now heavy, heavy furniture is lifting on its own.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And one time lifted off the ground and landed on Diane who was coming up the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So the furniture, which also, by the way, if it wasn't heavy enough, it was like apparently this big oak furniture, it also had a really heavy like old school sewing machine sitting on it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: And they both flew into Diane and while she was coming up the stairs and was press...
Christine Schiefer: This poor girl.
Em Schulz: Was pressing her into the steps. So Phillip and their mother tried to pull it off Diane. But what's really interesting is that when they were trying to pull it off of her, they realized she wasn't crying... She was crying 'cause she was scared, but she wasn't crying 'cause she was in pain because the furniture wasn't crushing her. It was just floating against her to hold her down.
Christine Schiefer: Eahh!
Em Schulz: And so they realized that she was totally fine and it was just fucking with them.
Christine Schiefer: That is so sinister and creepy.
Em Schulz: I mean, like it, that furniture and she's a 12-year-old girl on stairs, like that would've killed her, for sure. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, to launch that at a child.
Em Schulz: And instead it just wanted to hold her down and freak everyone out. So...
Christine Schiefer: Like show off that it could do it if it wanted to, which is so fucked up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. All it would take is me dropping this, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Oof. When they finally got it off of her, Diane obviously struggled through the night, umm, but even more so because this girl, by the way, I don't know if it's like the parenting and we're all trying to act like everything's fine or if Diane was totally chill with this, I don't know what the vibe was, but this girl's still going to bed in her own fucking bed. Like...
Christine Schiefer: This poor child, [chuckle] who's traumatized.
Em Schulz: Her room has been completely tarnished by this thing. Furniture's being thrown at her.
Christine Schiefer: Like, pinpoint at her. Like, she's the target.
Em Schulz: I feel like as a parent, she shouldn't be left unattended at this point.
Christine Schiefer: I would say probably not. Like, I don't think as a parent I could sleep knowing she's in the other room. Like, is another dresser on her again?
Em Schulz: Well, as she was sleeping that night, she got flipped out of her own bed four times.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: And every time the mattress would land on her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God!
Em Schulz: So she'd get pushed out.
Christine Schiefer: This is really effed up.
Em Schulz: I guess it's like someone would like lift the mattress until she rolled off and then would keep pushing the mattress until it landed on her. Umm, and Mr. Nobody continued to break furniture. He would fill rooms with perfume smells and he began to make items vanish and re-materialize. Umm. It started...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I like that. You know, I like that.
Em Schulz: Well, I don't know about this because the thing he really liked to make disappear and then reappear were eggs from closed cartons. [laughter] He like without...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that happened to me one time.
Em Schulz: Pray, tell.
Christine Schiefer: No. Okay, I promise I'm not trying to make this about me.
Em Schulz: What are you...
Christine Schiefer: But one time I was driving...
Em Schulz: What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Home from Trader Joe's and I bought a carton of eggs and I put all the groceries in the backseat. Excuse me. And at one point, umm, uh, I, well, I got home and I, I pulled the groceries out and I realized one of the eggs was missing. And I thought, uh-oh, that means it probably rolled somewhere in my car. So I'm like digging through my car. I tear the thing apart, can't find it. And then I go, well, any day now it's gonna start smelling. And, uh, it never did and I never found it. I sold the car. And umm, I, everyone's like, well, you probably just bought it that way. But like, I do that thing every time I buy eggs, I check the dozen...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That they're not cracked. So I was like, I don't know where it went. I just bought that.
Em Schulz: Could it have fallen out in the bag...
Christine Schiefer: Well, it wasn't in there.
Em Schulz: And you brought all six in? Oh, I don't, ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Who's, anyway, uh, I don't know. It was, it's a stupid story, which is why I never told it. But, uh, the egg just vanished and I thought, oh, that egg's gonna reappear and like make my car smell terrible. But it just...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it would at least smell bad. Speaking of things that...
Christine Schiefer: I like got inside, opened the eggs, 11. 11 eggs.
Em Schulz: Speaking of things that shockingly don't smell that bad, I've, I might have told this story before, but my, umm, best friend in college, umm, she had an old thing of milk. Did I tell you about Milk?
Christine Schiefer: I don't.
Em Schulz: We named him Milk.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you named the guy Milk. [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, no, no. It was milk and we just refer to it now as Milk.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you, oh, I'm sorry, you've given milk a, a persona. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We were lazy with the naming, obviously. But we bought a carton of milk and then it just expired and then we just kept being too lazy to throw it away, umm, and we were like let's see how bad it can get.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em.
Em Schulz: And so...
Christine Schiefer: No wonder you don't like cheese. I mean, this is already a formative experience it sounds like.
Em Schulz: So, every now and then we would check Milk and we'd be like, how's Milk doing? And we would just see, we would look through the carton to see if it was getting crazy, but we wouldn't open it 'cause we wanted it to be as potent as possible and we decided on his...
Christine Schiefer: You are sick.
Em Schulz: We decided on Milk's birthday, aka the anniversary of his expiration date.
Christine Schiefer: No. His birthday?
Em Schulz: [laughter] We were like, "On Milk's birthday, we'll open him and smell him."
Christine Schiefer: You sound like me right now. What are you doing?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck.
Em Schulz: So, uh, I think we made it past Milk's birthday and we still didn't, 'cause we were like, now we really have to see how long we have to go. But my, umm, my best friend, she...
Christine Schiefer: You're sick.
Em Schulz: She got really, umm, drunk one night and she got really hungover the next day and she couldn't get herself to throw up. And I was like, I think it's time we like hang out with Milk.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Em! You're so sick.
Em Schulz: And so we opened up Milk to see...
Christine Schiefer: You're a sicko.
Em Schulz: If it would make her throw up. And get this, after a year of being completely closed, smelled like nothing. Nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Nothing. Isn't that the craziest thing in the whole world? Smelled like nothing.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if it's like 'cause it didn't get oxygen into it.
Em Schulz: I don't know. But it also, I mean, it was completely separated so maybe like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe it was solidified or something. Blegh.
Em Schulz: It like totally, I don't, I like it was totally, I mean, it didn't look like milk after a year, I'll tell you that.
Christine Schiefer: That's gnarly, Em.
Em Schulz: But we just kept passing it to each other being like, it smells like air, it smells like nothing. And it was very, it was actually really anti-climatic 'cause we'd waited a whole year, but anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Did you throw Milk away?
Em Schulz: Milk, yeah. After a decade now Milk is somewhere and it's not in our fridge, so.
Christine Schiefer: Milk has developed like an entire ecosystem and is like running the mayor of the town now.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I just think it should be studied 'cause like you really would think after a year that thing would smell like, like tons of whatever.
Christine Schiefer: I'm impressed. I am surprised. I'm surprised.
Em Schulz: Anyway, umm, shout out to Milk and, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Wherever you are.
Em Schulz: Wherever you are, whatever dumpster fire you've created for yourself. Mr. Nobody would make things appear out of nowhere and disappear outta nowhere, including eggs from the fridge. Apparently without even opening the fridge's door or opening the carton, eggs would disappear from the carton in the fridge and they would be found later dropping out of thin air onto the floor. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Now cracking, and now there's like egg in your carpet and shit.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That would piss me off. And like that those like, you know, how we always talk about, oh, I wonder like how these things materialize and disappear? Like, that adds to the equation 'cause it's like, okay, it's just materializing in thin air. Like it's not...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like this thing is getting picked up and moved somewhere and then moved back.
Em Schulz: No, it really, it goes into the theory that there's another realm that it's being transferred to.
Christine Schiefer: Like a dimension or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And I love that that's kind of like a, umm, modernized twist on like the demonic presence, where it's like, "Oh, I can't, I'm not gonna just like biblically accurately smell like sulfur, but I will break eggs in your carpet, so over time, it smells like sulfur."
Christine Schiefer: So then the vacuum cleaner stinks like sulfur forever.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So, umm, Jean eventually runs into a friend who has some psychic tendencies named Rene. Umm, and she comes over to the house to help them out a little bit and all, the only note we have about Rene is that when she was over there, uh, somehow either she brought one with her or it was made for her when she got there, Rene has a sandwich. Umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Of course.
Em Schulz: While she's there, the lights go out and when they come back on, a bite mark is mysteriously in Rene's sandwich.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then grandma's like, I don't know. I don't, that's the only thing that happens here.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: And then Rene takes the sandwich and goes home.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, she's like not for you.
Em Schulz: With a potential demonic bite mark in it or just grandma's teeth.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, whatever it is, she still plans on finishing the sandwich when she gets home.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's a perfectly good sandwich.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah, you just cut around the demon spit. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, that's the only note we have about Rene, is that she appeared, she, a bite of her sandwich is missing and then she left.
Christine Schiefer: I love this for her.
Em Schulz: Umm, so then Joe, his, uh, his sister comes over, another in-law in the neighborhood. She's a, her name's Maude and she's a skeptic. A lot of the family seem to be skeptics, but Maude is serious about this. She's like, I'm gonna come over and debunk this once and for all. I'm so fucking tired of hearing about this thing. Like, let's just, let's just figure this out.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, Maude, let's see what you got.
Em Schulz: Well, Maude has a, a bit of a rollercoaster because she, uh, she gets over there, the lights start flickering by themselves and when they come back on, everything in the fridge has been thrown across the room.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Later that night, her fur gloves, oh my god, now we know what type of person Maude is. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Her name's Maude. She can't help it, Em.
Em Schulz: I know. Uh, her fur gloves go missing and she blames the kids. That's her skeptical thought. She's like, oh.
Christine Schiefer: She seems like really rude.
Em Schulz: She doesn't sound like the fun aunt, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh. Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: Umm, she sounds like the one who like buys you like socks for Christmas. Luggage.
Christine Schiefer: Fur gloves.
Em Schulz: Fur gloves.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "Here, you can have your own fur gloves. I know how much you love mine." It's like, umm, thanks.
Em Schulz: It's like, "Girl, we didn't want these."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Umm, so she thinks that the kids are throwing food out of the fridge. She thinks that they stole her fur gloves, but later they appear, she finds them again in the middle of the night in a doorway.
Christine Schiefer: Aargh.
Em Schulz: And it, thank you, but it's gonna get worse because when she found them in the doorway, they weren't just lying on the floor in the doorway. One glove was gripping the top of the doorframe.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: By itself, and the other one was gripping the bottom of the door.
Christine Schiefer: Ah!
Em Schulz: As if something with a six-foot wingspan was wearing them and holding the door.
Christine Schiefer: Like kinda sideways, like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Peering out. I'm gonna throw up.
Em Schulz: Or on both sides.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, or like this. Peeking.
Em Schulz: Like, could be holding both sides and peeking over.
Christine Schiefer: Because I feel like that's a big shadow, shadow person thing that people see them like peek around doorways.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, that seems to be it.
Em Schulz: But one glove was at the top of the frame, the door frame and the other was at the bottom. So it had to be...
Christine Schiefer: This is like a sitcom where like somebody says, oh, XYZ is missing. And they're like, oh, I haven't seen it. And then they show up like wearing it and you're like, that's my fucking coat. Like, the guy's like, I haven't seen your gloves. I'm sorry. It's like I, I can see them on your hands.
Em Schulz: I will say, this is the first demon I've ever heard of that really loved a fur glove.
Christine Schiefer: Fashion. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was like, in my mind, I'm like, you're a demon. Don't you already just naturally have furry gloves on... Like furry hands?
Christine Schiefer: You'd think that'd be part of the deal. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But hey, this one loves fashion so.
Christine Schiefer: Accessorizing. It's okay.
Em Schulz: Work it girl.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so remember, Maude is a skeptic.
Christine Schiefer: How could I forget? [laughter]
Em Schulz: But then Maude sees this happen and she turns into Em Schulz because she starts singing a Christian song.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Our God is an awesome God.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, which I don't blame her, girl. I would be Lord's prayer.
Christine Schiefer: You, I know.
Em Schulz: Everything, I would, like whatever it takes to get those creepy little gloves away from me. All of a sudden I'd never want the gloves again.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Forget it. Forget it. Forget it.
Em Schulz: So she starts singing a Christian song and one of the gloves comes off of the doorframe, floats in midair and starts moving as if it's conducting her singing mocking, right?
Christine Schiefer: Ew! Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew.
Em Schulz: Then light bulbs in the room, I guess, come off of their fixtures and begin floating in mid air while the glove is moving.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a candlelit, uh, sonata happening here. This is quite a portrait we're painting.
Em Schulz: Then the bulbs and the gloves all vanish outta nowhere. So she's missing her fucking gloves again.
Christine Schiefer: So all done. Yeah. Bye-bye.
Em Schulz: Around this time, uh, Jean, the wife, she names the poltergeist Fred, which I love that she said Mr. Nobody is not enough, so we're gonna...
Christine Schiefer: It's not happening. I'm sorry. The children are scared. His name's Fred now. Also, quick question, sorry to interrupt, but was that happening at Maude's house? So like she went home and saw this?
Em Schulz: She, she, she, no, she stayed the night, umm, to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, oh, so was still in their house.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she stayed the night to try to debunk whatever was going on.
Christine Schiefer: Great. Okay.
Em Schulz: And I like this thing was like, have you figured it out yet? Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh, it's not the kids. It like, wanted the credit, but it was like, but you still can't have your gloves back. Sorry.
Em Schulz: It's like, I'm taking those and the light bulbs, bitch.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Nice try, Maude.
Em Schulz: Oh. So, uh, Jean nicknames the poltergeist, Fred, even though he already had a nickname, but whatever. Umm, and they can often now feel him.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it's Fred Nobody. Maybe that's his first name.
Em Schulz: Mr. Frederick Nobody.
Christine Schiefer: Mr. Frederick Nobody.
Em Schulz: That makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just saying.
Em Schulz: He starts just giving off bad vibes without doing anything. So like, even without activity around, they can sense him and they say before he does something, they all feel an icy chill in the air. Umm, Aunt Marie from across the street and her husband Vic, they consult another priest for the family. Umm, and this priest says that an exorcism would be ineffective at this point, but they suggest which, like ineffective at this point, does that mean any other exorcism story we've heard was a lighter case than this?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And also like you were the ones who said, oh, sorry, we can't help you. And then later you're like, oh, sorry, it's too late now. It's like, well, you're the one who rejected us the first time.
Em Schulz: I feel like this priest just didn't wanna have to deal with it. I feel like he was like...
Christine Schiefer: It would piss me right off.
Em Schulz: That sounds like a lot of work. So, no.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm really busy.
Em Schulz: He suggest, I am really busy. Yeah, I have to go wash my hair that day.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] That, to be fair, that's a process.
Em Schulz: He, umm, suggested like, oh, an exorcism wouldn't work, but if you wanted to try something, I guess you could try holy water and praying. I'd be like, umm, excuse me, Mr. Priest, but how about I suggest you try holy water and praying during an exorcism. How about that?
Christine Schiefer: Come on over.
Em Schulz: Uh, so Vic, uncle Vic comes over and he does this. He's fucking doing the priest's job. So he starts sprinkling holy water everywhere, and saying prayers. And once he used the holy water, they hear banging and they see water trickling down the walls as if the house is rejecting the blessing.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Then so they hear banging, water is coming out of the house, and then a crucifix falls off the wall and throws itself at Diane. This poor little girl, she cannot get enough.
Christine Schiefer: This child, it's so sad.
Em Schulz: Crucifix gets thrown at Diane, and I don't know what Hollywood movie trick this is, but the crucifix that got thrown at her sticks to her back.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And won't come off of her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Poor child.
Em Schulz: It took a while for the family to completely get it off of her. Like they had to rip it off of her, and it left a big red mark on Diane for days.
Christine Schiefer: That is so sad.
Em Schulz: Soon pictures of Jesus himself start falling off the walls. And when they woke up the next morning, upside down crosses were painted on all the doors.
Christine Schiefer: Ew! Sorry, that was really loud.
Em Schulz: Uh, I, in those moments, I'm sure that was very terrifying. But I also wanna know like what shade did he pick. You know, like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was probably the shade she was like fucking painting the wall. Like the redecorate thing.
Em Schulz: Oh, like using paint that was nearby. That's, that's smart. I was think like, did he just like, go through the Pantone? Like little...
Christine Schiefer: Is this like an ombre cross?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, lights continue to flash on and off on their own and items continue to weirdly disappear and reappear. One example is a coat that they found, uh, that had gone missing, they found it.
Christine Schiefer: A fur coat.
Em Schulz: I don't know about fur, but it wouldn't, it would add to the ensemble, wouldn't it?
Christine Schiefer: Imagine that showing up in the doorway. You're like, wow, the out, transformation's complete.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: All we need now are some flashy boots and we'll get walking.
Christine Schiefer: Yes! [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so one of the family's, one of the family member's coats went missing and they found it in a shed under a pile of coal.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: And when they pulled it out, I don't know how this works, but when they pulled it out, it was completely clean as if there was no coal or dust or anything on it.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, what does it even mean?
Em Schulz: In my mind, yeah, I'm like, does that mean it looked clean under the pile of coal or did it look fucked up? And somewhere between you grabbing it and pulling it on its own, it did a transformation? I don't know. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: That is so bizarre.
Em Schulz: Another example is that when Jean was cleaning out the chimney one day, 19 keys fell out of the chimney of the fireplace and she put together all 19 keys and realized that 18 of them were her own keys that they'd lost throughout the house.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And the 19th was a strange old key she'd never seen.
Christine Schiefer: This is so effing creepy.
Em Schulz: Shortly after, Fred starts physically appearing before the family. Honestly...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Finally because like it's...
Christine Schiefer: Finally show yourself.
Em Schulz: First, he shows up in a doorway and he looks like a monk in a black hooded robe. Hence the Black Monk of Pontefract.
Christine Schiefer: Makes sense.
Em Schulz: When it appeared, uh, oh sorry. Then it appeared at a neighbor's house, which I, you know, that neighbor was the one that was complaining the most about noise.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. He's like, I'm finally here to address the complaints.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Look me in the eyes and tell me I'm too loud. Umm, again, he was described as a monk in a black habit. Then Rene, sandwich girl, umm, she comes over to Jean's house and she sees it after the lights turn out by themselves. The lights are out, and she now sees this thing. She says it was floating in a black robe.
Christine Schiefer: Gross. Okay. So it's presenting the same to these multiple people.
Em Schulz: Yes. Then the kids see it while watching TV, and it appeared on the other side of the kitchen door. And when they went to go look, it sank into the floor and vanished.
Christine Schiefer: Gross.
Em Schulz: Soon after this, it grabs Diane by her throat.
Christine Schiefer: My god.
Em Schulz: And drags her up the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Which like, I wonder if it's, I wonder what that means, because when it was, I'm assuming weeks ago at this point, when it was throwing huge furniture and almost letting it land on her just to freak everyone out...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It clearly had the potential to hurt her then and didn't. So like, why is it now grabbing her by the throat and dragging her?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it had to, excuse me, this is like just me talking out my ass, but maybe it had to like develop enough power to actually harm someone or physically harm. I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Or maybe it just likes... I was gonna say...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it's such a ghost thing to like have an object whizz past you and like, hit the wall, or like, and so my thought has always been, is there like some law of nature, like some invisible law we don't know where like they can't actually hurt us?
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. But obviously, now it is. So I, I have no idea.
Em Schulz: Or maybe, maybe it just likes the long con and was like, I just want you to, I just wanna mentally torture you first, you know.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. Like, that's still, I mean, it sounds like an abuse tactic. Like, oh, I could hurt you if I wanted to. And then like months, years later, be like, okay, now is the time I escalate it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like gradually.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Well, so now it's grabbing her by the throat, dragging her up the stairs, later she had red finger marks on her from that. But she's getting dragged up the stairs and Phillip and their mom grab her. And when Phillip tried to grab the, at the ghost or grab it, whatever was holding her, the entity let go of Diane and it made all of them fall down the stairs. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: It was kind of like, uh, when you're playing tug of war and one person let's go so the other person goes backwards, that's what happened.
Christine Schiefer: That evil trick that I always do and nobody likes it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm sure Xandy loved it growing up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. He's not traumatized at all.
Em Schulz: One morning, uh, they wake up and the hall carpet is soaked through with water and also covered in hoof prints.
Christine Schiefer: Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!. No.
Em Schulz: Then whatever is in this house starts mimicking animals and they start hearing cow and chicken noises throughout the house and more eggs start dropping outta thin air. But now, instead of smelling like eggs, it smells like perfume.
Christine Schiefer: Oh god. Oh, weird.
Em Schulz: When a visitor mentioned the family's clock, it shattered immediately. And like, I mean, things are just...
Christine Schiefer: Don't comment on anything.
Em Schulz: Just don't, don't talk about the kids. Umm, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Don't talk about the house.
Em Schulz: And yet the family just kept living life amongst this poltergeist. And I mean, like, I don't know why after all this stuff, they haven't moved. This thing is grabbing your kids like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's what I worry about. This poor child.
Em Schulz: Well, one day, Joe's friend who had just come back from Scotland said that, oh, you know, I, I heard over there in Scotland, one of the things that they do is they hang garlic over doors and windows and that like protects them from spirits.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So not to make this super abrupt, but the family tries that and it works.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And there's no more activity in the home after that. It was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay. That's easy.
Em Schulz: All they had to do that entire fucking time was hang garlic up.
Christine Schiefer: They must be so pissed off. Like, really? Couldn't you have told us this three years ago?
Em Schulz: They're like, we had garlic on the counter and in the fridge this entire time he was throwing it around. We could have just hung it up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But this poor child is like probably never gonna eat garlic again. She's like, I can't eat garlic. It's a long story.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Yeah. So a lot of people do actually think that, umm, the garlic being hung isn't actually what ended the spirit. They think like it just aligned perfectly. Like it's coincidental that like the poltergeist just kinda ends the activity at the same time they hung it up, umm, or they think like, hey, maybe the poltergeist like finally got it in some way. They're like, we're rejecting you. Go away. They don't really know. It's just, it could be a totally coincidence...
Christine Schiefer: Weird
Em Schulz: But it's just so odd. Umm, in the 1980s, an author named Colin Wilson interviewed the family. Uh, and he was surprised at how normal the entity had become in their lives because when he was asking them questions, they didn't even seem traumatized. They talked about it like a cousin who was living there. Like, they were just like, oh, what happened...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, like an old roommate.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, Diane, the little girl even later said that, yeah, it terrorized her, but she never sensed any true harm. And part of me is like...
Christine Schiefer: Huh?
Em Schulz: Like, it was, it threw furniture on you, it flipped you outta bed, it grabbed you by the throat. It was flinging you around. I think you're...
Christine Schiefer: I sense harm.
Em Schulz: Like, I sense you're allowed to sense harm. It's okay. I wonder if it's like just a, a coping mechanism at this point.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Poor thing.
Em Schulz: Umm, one guy named Tom Cuniff, uh, he heard about the poltergeist and looked into the priory that used to be there, thinking that that might have some history to it, but no one found anything, reporters didn't find anything. At this point, they think that the spirit could be from any time period because remember, that town is literally ancient and full of...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Burial sites. It could be from any time. Umm, and maybe because of that, another theory is that the land itself is so powerful, it allowed the spirit to start out that strong.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, they think maybe the location alone, because of its history gave the spirit some sort of power to draw from. And then the classic theory is that the spirit was drawing power from the kids, which is why it was going after Diane so much.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and anyways, this house is called, a lot of times, the Amityville of the UK.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: Which is somewhat, it's somewhat ironic because a lot of people think that this story has a lot more authenticity than Amityville buzz.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So, umm, but there's a director named Bil Bungay who made a movie about the house, and when he found out that the house was for sale, so I guess they finally left, he found out the house was for sale, he bought it and used it for the movie's premiere, so.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: Like, how wild is that that you could watch a movie about a house in the house?
Christine Schiefer: I would be delighted and terrified.
Em Schulz: I'd go for sure. I'd go for sure.
Christine Schiefer: I'd go too. I'd go too.
Em Schulz: I'd be fucking wear necklaces of garlic, but I'd go.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I would be eating just cloves of garlic, but yeah.
Em Schulz: After buying the house, visitors were talking about the poltergeist a lot, especially in the house the movie was playing and I guess because the poltergeist was getting some sort of attention, activity started happening again in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Umm, and I don't know more details on that, but the director ended up writing his own experience about the house, umm, into his book called The Black Monk of Pontefract. And the house is now open to visitors and investigators if you are interested in going, so.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that is the Black Monk of Pontefract.
Christine Schiefer: That's one of the creepiest haunting stories I've heard in a long time.
Em Schulz: I, that when I was floored that I hadn't covered it.
Christine Schiefer: I would love to go there. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: No?
Em Schulz: Well, I would go with you, but you know, where like SpongeBob, his breath was really bad, that would be me with garlic. I'd have to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, me too. Don't worry.
Em Schulz: I, I'd just be seeping bad fumes if I ever went into that house 'cause I'd be so scared.
Christine Schiefer: I would be like Patrick where I don't have a nose 'cause it won't phase me in the slightest, you know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'll just stand there and be like, what's everyone so concerned about?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh lord. I would go. I would go.
Em Schulz: Okay, good to know. I will follow you in and I will be the first one out, so.
Christine Schiefer: I just love that Em's just gonna follow me in there 'cause I was like, well, why resist at this point?
Em Schulz: I wonder if any of, so like in nearby, like within 15 minutes of me is Marty Mcfly's house from Back to the Future.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And the original family doesn't live there anymore, but the original neighbors still live there, and if you go over there and take pictures of the house, the neighbors sometimes will come out and tell you stories about when they were filming there.
Christine Schiefer: Fun.
Em Schulz: I wonder if like, all the fucking in-laws, someone still has to live in that neighborhood.
Christine Schiefer: Maude.
Em Schulz: Maude's gotta be there or like Uncle Vic or Mr. O'Donald, someone, grandma Sarah. Oh no, she might not be with us anymore, but uh, someone from that neighborhood still could be there. I would like to go talk to them and be like, how fucking loud was it from your house?
Christine Schiefer: Tell us all the gossip.
Em Schulz: Do you have an old copy of that newspaper where it got its name, Mr. Nobody? Like, I wanna know the dirt from someone who was there, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Hell yes. I mean, I'm looking right now at, uh, this page and I would really like to go.
Em Schulz: What page?
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, the page for the house. It's www.30eastdrive.com. Three zero east drive dot com. Umm.
Em Schulz: It's got its own website? That's so badass.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, hell yeah. And the visitors' comments. Here's a handwritten one. "It was a terrifying experience. This place is one, if not, one of, if not the most haunted house in the world. All my love."
Em Schulz: All my love.
Christine Schiefer: All my love, Yvette. Kiss, kiss.
Em Schulz: I have a feeling Yvette's never coming back.
Christine Schiefer: Kiss, kiss, never see you again.
Em Schulz: Kiss, kiss, bisou, bisou.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Bisou, bisou. Oh god.
Em Schulz: But, umm, I, I definitely, umm, you know, if all the poltergeist wanted was some attention, I guess he's getting it now, right? So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like he's finally like thriving. Umm, so congratulations to everybody. Umm.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome. I, uh, I don't know, I wanna go. It sounds like something I would, I would like to do, so. Eva.
Em Schulz: Eva, escort, uh, Christine to the Black Monk of Pontefract. I'll be here. Don't worry about it.
Christine Schiefer: Em's not attending.
Em Schulz: I'll check out the emails. I'll, I'll cover the emails for you guys. Have fun.
Christine Schiefer: I'll write. I'll write.
Em Schulz: Bisou, bisou.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, bisou, bisou. I'll write and, uh, I'll sign your name in the guest book, Em, just in case. Okay. I am gonna tell you a story today. This is the story of the George Brothers and, uh, it's a doozy. So we're gonna hop right into it.
Em Schulz: I love when we have a double doozy episode.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. It's a double doozy. And these are two twins.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: So it's a double double doozy.
Em Schulz: It's a quadruplet doozy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my goodness.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. Quadruple doozy.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Twin brothers Chris and Jeff were born in 1980 to parents, Denice and John Paul George. The two boys grew up in Wellington, Florida. Have you heard of this town?
Em Schulz: No. What, should I have?
Christine Schiefer: Me neither. Well, I don't know, because apparently, it's like really up like this fancy ass town, very upscale, umm, attracts.
Em Schulz: It's where Yvette lives.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: For sure. No doubt. Umm.
Em Schulz: I love that you thought that I might know about it, but, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I know, I said that because, well, I said that 'cause I think you're very fancy, obviously.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: But I also said that because it's known for people like former Prince Harry, uh, who spent time there and, uh, played, competed in polo there. So I, I didn't know if this was something people knew about and I was just, you know, the odd one out but.
Em Schulz: I'm, I'm, I'm with you. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: You're with me. Okay, great. So it's an upscale community. It's known for its horses and polo, and it attracts billionaires like Bill Gates, celebrities, even royalty like I mentioned. And the dad, John Paul George was enjoying massive success as a home builder in Florida. And he wanted, like, these just, I mean, he, they built, he built like these massive McMansions, you know? And so he wanted his family to have a luxurious life, and that was his goal. So Chris and Jeff, the twin boys, they grew up with everything they could have ever wanted. Toys, ATVs, like any, anything that struck their fancy, uh, their parents would buy for them. They were athletes and scholars who grew up competing in everything from tennis and hockey to mathematics competitions. And they had this kind of, uh, relationship with each other, umm, that their stepdad would later call a love-hate relationship. It was like, they were always competing, but then they like had each other's backs if something went wrong. If that makes sense. Like, they...
Em Schulz: It was like a, like a, a charming rivalry.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, except not so charming. But, but yeah. Yeah. A rivalry, a rivalry that...
Em Schulz: Frenemies.
Christine Schiefer: It was sort... Yeah, frenemy. Frenemies. That's probably the best way to put it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It was like they hated being apart, but then when they were together, they were just bitching at each other the whole time. Or like trying to one up each other.
Em Schulz: It's like you and Xandy. Oh, it's so annoying to be in a room with the two of you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's not like that.
Christine Schiefer: It's not like that because I think, umm, I would not participate anymore if that were the case. You know what I mean?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, if I were dealing with this, I'd be like, okay, you win the fucking competition. I don't care about polo, okay?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah. So they were very competitive, umm, and their parents divorced when they were about eight years old and Denice remarried a man named Michael Haggerty, a firefighter, and, uh, he met the twins when they were nine in 1989 and got the impression that the boys were a little difficult and later commented about their kind of love hate frenemy relationship with one another. They hated being apart. But then, you know, were, it's like very toxic. Like they hated being apart, but then when they spent time together, it was just like butting heads the whole time.
Em Schulz: Like, they kinda loved the conflict. It sounds like they kinda...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They, it's like they thrived. I, I wonder, I wonder what, what month they were born in 'cause I feel like that might give us a little insight. Umm, let me look it up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. It's giving fire energy. I'll tell you that.
Christine Schiefer: It is giving fire energy. I was gonna say Gemini energy, but I think you're more right with the fire, uh, uh, date of birth. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What, are they Geminis?
Christine Schiefer: They're Scorpios.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, good to know.
Christine Schiefer: 11:11, they were born.
Em Schulz: No comment. What are the odds that their twins born on 11:11?
Christine Schiefer: That number.
Em Schulz: It feels weird. It feels weird.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels like it could have gone in such a different direction. Umm, not that you know where we're going, but it's not good as you can probably guess.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So, okay, Scorpios. I'm a little surprised by that, but also not. Okay. Anyway, uh, so they started...
Em Schulz: I got no comment. I've said enough about Scorpios in my life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Em has stepped out of the conversation. Umm, when they were young, they started a brush fire that became a forest fire and it took firefighters two days to control. And they ended up having to do community services punishment. And it didn't really hit me until right now that their stepdad was a firefighter. Imagine how pissed off he must have been.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Didn't even think about it.
Christine Schiefer: They're kids, they're teenagers. They started a fucking forest fire.
Em Schulz: Oh god. Yeah, I'd be pissed.
Christine Schiefer: That's gotta be a high tension household.
Em Schulz: Awkward dinner. Awkward dinner.
Christine Schiefer: Awkward. Awkward indeed. They started fights in hockey so often that their mom, Denice, stopped going to games because other parents like couldn't stand them and were so irritated. She's like, I feel uncomfortable. I'm not going to your games anymore. But Chris and Jeff, this was only the beginning. They got into more legal trouble throughout their teen years. They were arrested several times on charges like theft, vandalism, obstruction of justice, and according to their stepdad, Michael, their father, John Paul, always called his attorney and was always able to pull them out of whatever trouble they'd gotten themselves into.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And we know how that goes when you have no consequences for any of your actions as a teenager.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it goes bad. So they usually only had to do like minor amounts of community service and never really faced any consequences for their actions. And allegedly, their father told them they could do whatever they wanted because they were smarter than the police and everyone else.
Em Schulz: Oh. Damn. Wow, we are just building ourselves a pair of narcissists, huh?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. You know what? It's not even framed that way in my notes, but you just hit the nail on the head. Yes.
Em Schulz: Well, if you're telling them you can have anything you want except a single consequence and also you're smarter and better than everyone, you are...
Christine Schiefer: You're better than the police and everyone else.
Em Schulz: You are superior in all ways and have all the power to do whatever you want.
Christine Schiefer: But also I'm gonna kind of rile both of you up and pit you against each other just to...
Em Schulz: Also you're Scorpios, so good fucking luck. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Good luck. Good luck. Uh, Jeff and Chris, as you basically just said, were really never told no about anything. Uh, Jeff considered himself an entrepreneur.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Okay, sorry. Sorry, that was fucked up to laugh at. Okay. I'm so interested.
Christine Schiefer: Was it... [laughter] I guess so.
Em Schulz: I know one of, I just know on a first date he would be the worst. He would, he's like I'm an entrepreneur and then like couldn't give you a single piece of information on anything except like Bitcoin. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like, oh, I work, alright, exactly. Like I work in finance. And it's like, no, you like bought Bitcoin last week and you're really proud of it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. Calm down, calm down. But his parents, his dad, I'm sorry, when he was in, by the way, his dad, John Paul was interviewed and was like, these boys, and once you know like how far this has gone, later on, it was like jarring to see the dad be like, oh, these silly kids. And I'm like, umm.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Okay, I can't wait to get angry.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I guess he still doesn't give a shit. But, uh, the dad called his sons entrepreneurs, uh, which is quite a choice of a word. But anyway, uh, in an interview, Jeff described himself as more of the ideas person and he considered himself more creative and spontaneous than his brother Chris, who was more kind of the straight laced, like, uh, more cerebral of the two.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Jeff opened a business called Shutter King.
Em Schulz: Wow. He is an entrepreneur.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Where he would install storm shutters, uh, to protect homes during hurricanes. Umm, fun fact, his shutters didn't work and when Hurricane Frances...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: When Hurricane Frances hit, all of them broke and properties were damaged and, uh, his business rapidly went under, uh, in a number of legal settlements but Jeff kinda didn't give a shit. So he just kind of moved on, umm, because he had a new interest, which was treasure, ocean treasure hunting. Umm, which is an interest I didn't know I had until this very moment. Umm.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I mean it, on one side, I can see it because I also love geocaching. I get it. I get it. I get it. But like I feel like he really did just decide like, oh, I am a scuba diver and I know exactly what I'm doing and I'm gonna get my own boat just for the fun of it, and then I'll also have someone throw a treasure chest down and then I'll go digging for it. And also other...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. You know what? That's it. It's, it reminds me of like when royal families way back when would have like people like hold their gun for them...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And go hunting. And I'm like, is that hunting? Are you really good at hunting or are you just like making people do it for you?
Em Schulz: Like if you went on an excursion with other people and like you were amongst the people, it'd be one thing, but you know he made his dad buy him a yacht so he could jump off of it to go diving for treasure.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, do you mean his treasure boat that his dad bought him?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: His dad bought, his dad bought him a treasure boat.
Em Schulz: Was it called Ocean Gate or something or what?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe. I mean the predecessor.
Em Schulz: What was the, so, okay, so I was totally on point then. So he got his own treasure boat.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He got, uh, he got his own treasure boat from his dad and then within four or five days, he said he didn't wanna do it anymore.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So like, you get it, you get it. We all know people like this or we don't necessarily know them 'cause I don't know anyone who's ever gotten a treasure boat from their dad on a whim. [laughter] But I've known of people with similar tendencies. Umm, so he lost interest in less than a week. And uh, he was this very live large sort of guy. He just wanted to be in everyone's face. He wanted to annoy people 'cause he got a kick out of it. For example, he once found out that his extremely loud monster truck, which by the way, he would like park in the front yard of his house. Uh, he found out that people were annoyed, his neighbors were complaining about how loud his monster truck was. So he cut off the muffler so that it would be even louder. And he actually wound up in the news for it, like labeled as a nuisance. And in the photo, he's like proudly posing with his monster truck. Uh.
Em Schulz: Disgusting.
Christine Schiefer: You know, disgusting.
Em Schulz: He, he by the way, I think lives in my neighborhood because there's someone who, uh, it seems as the days go on, the car gets louder. I don't know what he's doing. It's the worst. So I absolutely side with the neighbors in this.
Christine Schiefer: I can't stand when you hear someone start the revving and you're like, oh, we're in for a solid 30 seconds of this nonsense. I guess we have to wait.
Em Schulz: In our neighborhood, I mean, it's not, our neighborhood is very close to like the main street and all that. So like cars are always driving by, but it's wild when we're walking on like the main street and we hear the same sound from like, we know what the car looks like just because outside of our home we have seen the car driving and we're like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. So you can pinpoint it.
Em Schulz: I'm like, oh, that's the car that pisses us off every night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's the guy with the giant penis.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I think you meant giant treasure boat, but yes, same thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sorry. That's the name of the boat. Umm, the giant penis. [laughter] I have a giant penis is what it's called. Just in case anyone was wondering. Umm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Imagine the fan art of the treasure bone. Also, I played a lot of, uh, ocean Barbie Ocean Discovery as a child and I discovered a lot of treasures and it was a lot of hard work. So I can, I can see why after a few days he was over it.
Em Schulz: And $0, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: And also I made $0, believe it or not.
Em Schulz: You also spent $0, like you, you did this whole thing and you didn't have to bother anybody financially.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. My mom just paid $19.99 at, uh, for your entertainment to buy me the CD-ROM.
Em Schulz: Bingo. That's all he had to do.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, easy enough. He should get, uh, get a tip from an entrepreneur like me.
Em Schulz: Just the tip on his boat called I Have a Big Penis.
Christine Schiefer: Just the tip. Just the tip for...
Em Schulz: Somewhere in there, there's a seamen joke of him being the semen.
Christine Schiefer: Oh god. Well, there it is. Uh, he is just an ass. He's a douchebag. And, umm, even though Chris is the more like level-headed cerebral guy by all accounts, umm, as we can tell, the bar's low. So he's not really that impressive of a guy. That's because they started using steroids, both of them, umm, because they were bodybuilders, uh, amateur bodybuilders, of course, and they...
Em Schulz: Of course, for five days.
Christine Schiefer: Just for five days. And they wanted to one up each other, right? They're like always competing. And so they both start taking steroids to bulk up and be the bigger, the bigger one. You know, they're always trying to one up each other. So they have this new hobby and Chris decides he's gonna buy steroids from an online dealer in Eastern Europe. So the steroids arrive, this is like in the '90s, by the way. So the steroids arrive and they are hidden in an unassuming VHS tape.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So sneaky. So Chris used some of this and then sold the rest to friends. This became a pattern. They were, he was selling them to his friends and he got caught and he got charged with his first felony in 2003.
Em Schulz: Cute.
Christine Schiefer: He was sentenced to eight months in prison and he was allowed to serve in a work release program so he could continue working for his father's construction business. And his dad kept kinda giving them second chances and 18th chances and 11,000th chances letting them work for the company, thinking like, okay, they figured out, they've learned their lesson and they're back to hard work. So that's not what happened. Uh, they did what they wanted. Um, they got away with pretty much everything and they barely ever had to apologize. Maybe pick up some trash on the side of the road.
Em Schulz: Ew. Just pretending to beat them.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. I wanna be treasure hunting, daddy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It must have been a tough life. Uh, eventually, Jeff and Chris said, you know, we're two entrepreneurs, why don't we start a business together? So they start a business. It's called South Beach Rejuvenation.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Uh, this is a hormone replacement clinic where they provided testosterone and HGH, human growth hormone to athletes. And the way that this would operate is that quote, unquote, "patients" would attend a telemedicine appointment by phone and were immediately prescribed steroids, which were delivered straight to their homes. Like just not really, nobody got a no. You know what I mean? Like, there's really no barrier to accessing this stuff, uh, through these guys. They did blood work quote, unquote, "but it was just for show" because everyone was immediately approved. So it was, you know, a racket. And so the two brothers wanted to buy out similar competing clinics, and so they met up with this guy named 38-year, his name's not 38-year-old.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They met up with this 38 year old guy named Dr. Overstreet. Now Dr. Overstreet was locally named, known as the Candyman.
Em Schulz: Oh, yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Big yikes. Uh, he's called the Candyman because he tells them, "the real money is in pain management clinics and painkillers, opiates." So the two brothers were like, shit, we're in. Uh, they pay easy. They hear easy money, and they're like, "Fuck yeah." Uh, so they pay $36 at the local tax collector's office for a license to sell pain medication without any further inquiry despite having a felony. He's a convict. Despite having a felony on his record. They don't even look into it because back then in Florida, there was basically no oversight on opiates. And so they just got this license to sell drugs. Uh, they're not medically experienced. They have prison records.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: But I guess they can give out.
Em Schulz: So did they end up, they, if they were trying to buy out the Candyman, it sounds like they ended up just joint, like being in cahoots with him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So they met up with him and basically he said, "Hey, why don't you buy into this business? We'll start you off. I'll show you the ropes and then you can kind of start building your own like empire sort of." And he would get a cut.
Em Schulz: Oh, I see. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So he kind of taught them the ropes and they paid this 36 bucks. They got the license, and in no time, Chris and Jeff were each running their own pain clinic. Uh, there was South Coast Pain Clinic and East Coast Pain Clinic, and Dr. Overstreet owned 50% of the business and the brothers co-owned 50%, but only weeks into the operation, Dr. Overstreet died in a car crash...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the brothers realized, "Oh, fuck yeah, now we don't have to share it with him."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they're now quickly hiring their own doctors. They are, uh, apparently hiring these doctors via Craigslist. Umm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They put, they put up posts on Craigslist saying, we will pay you per patient like thousands of dollars. It's basically for anybody, the vibe was if you have lost or if you have, umm, been fired from a practice for doing something unsavory or...
Em Schulz: We'll give you a second chance or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, welcome to our club. Yeah, we'll let you in and we'll pay you big bucks. And so there were, there was like a former proctologist, a plastic surgeon, like just these random doctors signed up to participate. And they were paying these doctors per patient, uh, rather than as shareholders. And so the idea behind the pain clinics was shockingly simple. The doctors would just dangerously over-prescribe Oxycodone and Xanax among other drugs to virtually every single patient that visited the clinic.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And because they were paid, paid per patient, they had an incentive to see as many and prescribe as many pills as possible.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like, and I don't know enough about the pharmaceutical world, but like the people who have to send you Xanax when you run out, did they not notice that those clinics were running outta Xanax a lot faster than any other pharmacy.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, no, because they were able to prescribe the drugs in-house and give them in-house, fulfill the prescriptions in-house.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So they had like a one stop shop, uh, where you go in, it's not only the prescription, but also the pharmacy. So they would, you'd walk out and they'd say, "Alright, here's your pills. Bye." Uh, and you'd leave. So it's a easy in and out.
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: And because they were paid per patient, these doctors, they had this incentive to see as many patients as possible. And eventually, patients were in there for only 45 seconds to three minutes.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Per patient. And, uh, allegedly at one point, at least from the, I say allegedly, because I wasn't sure if this was factual, but it was mentioned by a reporter in a documentary I watched, uh, reportedly one of these clinics could rake in $50,000 in a single week.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Like they were making bank.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. What a scandal.
Christine Schiefer: What a scam. Scam and scandal.
Em Schulz: Scam scandal. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's a scandal. So Jeff and Chris also paid the doctors a thousand dollars extra a week to use their DEA registration. So they needed their medical license and DEA registration, which Blaise had to have when he was doing, umm, when he was doing the opiate withdrawal for people and helping...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, oh my god, Christine, it's been so long, I'm sorry. He's gonna kill me, whatever. But when he was prescribing that, he needed that license. And so, you know, if you had that license and you wanted to make some big bucks really fast, you could join this place. They would give you a thousand dollars a week if you went online and ordered the maximum amount of pills that your DEA registration would allow you to purchase.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it would get shipped straight to their in-house pharmacy, so they could just peddle it out to people as they came in. So they were running a racket, profiting off sales of pain medication, and they were not the only ones. Uh, once drug dealers heard about how easy it was to get prescription drugs at these clinics, they also wanted to get in on it. And for example, one dealer visited as a patient to check out the clinic. The doctor told him to stretch down and touch his toes. He said he couldn't, and so the doctor prescribed him 180 oxycodone tablets for his pain.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I also can't touch my toes, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so, uh, hand them over. [laughter] Geez. Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess so. And you would've been able to, uh, and so he was prescribed a total of 240 pills at his next appointment.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So starting at 180, going to 240. You can see how this is becoming a big problem very fast.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The guy said it was just so simple. And like, I have an experience in a different, uh, realm of this, but when I lived in LA, when we first moved there, uh, marijuana was still, uh, medicinal only.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it became recreational soon afterward, but at the time, I was like, "Ooh, I'm gonna get a medical marijuana card." Did I ever use it? No. But I went and got it just in case.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, I went in and I was all nervous, like, oh my gosh, I wanna make sure I ace this test. The guy basically said like, oh, do you have any trouble sleeping? And I'm like, yeah, umm, I do. And he's like, okay, here's your prescription. And I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That. What? Oh, I thought that was just like one of many questions. Nope.
Em Schulz: That's how... That's, uh, in a different way. When I went to go get diagnosed for ADHD, I thought I was gonna have to like, pass a, yeah, like pass a test or like, I needed to say the right thing, which like, I, I was just scared that I was gonna overthink it, and then they wouldn't take me seriously. But before they even start asking me any questions, within like two sentences, they were like, "You have ADHD, right?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I guess they could just tell by the way I talk so it's...
Christine Schiefer: And I will say, those companies are also getting so much scrutiny about like the lack of oversight on, umm, ADHD medication too.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I think that's like the next thing they're gonna, the government's gonna like buckle down on because I've witnessed that a lot where it's like, you just hop on, they're like, it's just an app. You go on five minutes and they prescribe you Ritalin. And I'm like, holy shit. You know, I mean, I would say it's probably a, a more legit operation by far than what's happening here, but it does have similar overtones.
Em Schulz: Vibes. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Vibes. Another dealer started sending random people he called his patients...
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: As in like his clients, uh, to the clinic, and he told them if they got prescribed pain medication, he would buy them back from them for $500.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: These patients would make a quick $500 for just going in there and not touching their toes, I guess, [laughter] and then this dealer would be able to sell the pills at an enormous profit on the street. So he sent 10-15 people to the clinics every day, and he was making in cash daily $5000-$6000 just doing nothing, just basically selling what he was getting from these people.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Before long, of course, word spread, uh, outside of Florida and up in Kentucky, people because, uh, my current fair state, uh, has struggled with a lot of, uh, drug problems.
Em Schulz: Stuff.
Christine Schiefer: When it comes to stuff, when it comes to, uh, opiates, you know, it's a, it's a rough time here, and Appalachia especially. And so people began to hear word that there was this clinic in Florida, in South Florida where you could drive, walk on in, and leave with a bunch of painkillers.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so people from Kentucky started traveling to South Florida several times a week to pick up drugs, and then they would drive back and sell them in Kentucky for a profit.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Some of the medications were unknown in the region, and the dealers, what they would do is give them away to get people hooked. But then, uh, as we now know, opiates are an extremely addictive substance, and so people would pretty much get hooked immediately, and then the demand would skyrocket.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The police made an interesting point that, like they, in Appalachia, they were like, we knew the street price for Oxy, and it was $30 a pill. And he's like, and then one day we, one of our informants said, by the way, uh, Oxy prices have dropped to $10 a pill. And they're like, that's suspicious. So basically they started looking into it, realizing people were getting these just like heaps of pills from Florida, bringing them back and, uh, so, you know, now they were able to meet the demand, the price dropped. Uh, and so that's kinda how they started to catch on to what was going on.
Em Schulz: Ah, okay. Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So out of state dealers also started renting buses to carry quote, unquote, "patients" to Florida for pain medication and they claimed to be sponsoring sick people who needed access to medical care. Uh, they were mostly people with addiction who wanted a refill on their pain meds.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: One group drove in a bus that said Tree of Life Baptist Church on the side, and they all wore matching t-shirts to try and pass as a church group on a mission to provide healthcare to those in need. That was their backstory.
Em Schulz: Wow. There's, I mean, it's just wild that it was, umm, everyone's in on it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like, we're not even like pretending like, oh no, everyone's here for individual reasons. It's like, no, no, we're all...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no, yeah.
Em Schulz: We're all playing this together.
Christine Schiefer: There's no subtlety at all. And I'm sure there, you know, there were people, I'm sure there were people who went in genuinely for sincere, but a lot of these addictions start that way. Like, you have genuine pain, like you have back pain. You have, uh, X, Y, Z chronic pain conditions. And so it's hard because it's like, yeah, people are addicted, but it doesn't mean like they weren't using it originally for the intended purpose. And a lot of times, people are prescribed opiates totally above board, and then become addicted and have to find the drug elsewhere.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So it's not, it's not necessarily like, oh, they're just like doing drugs. It's like, you know, now they feel they need it to stop the pain or, you know, what have you. Umm, so I'm sure some of them going in there genuinely had real chronic pain conditions. Umm, but overall, it was just quite a racket. Uh, Jeff himself would simply sell drugs to a, directly to a local dealer who would then sell them on the streets. And so Jeff, at this point is like, we're not even pretending. Like, I'm selling straight to drug dealers at this point. As business boomed, the brothers needed more staff. They hired their male friends to work in their offices, and they hired female staff off of Craigslist ads that required women to submit photos of themselves to be considered.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. Great.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They also eventually hired their mother, Denice, do you think she had to send in a photo?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ah, and Chris put his girlfriend in charge who became his wife, uh, in charge of an entire third clinic that saw nearly 200 patients a day.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The, I know, it's crazy. At first, the clinic offices were like frat houses, according to one of Chris' employees. They did shots, they drank beer, they shot each other with tasers, and anything else they could think of just like fucking around.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're just like totally fucking around. But Chris decided the business needed to look more legitimate. Every day there were lines of patients out the door, down and across the street, and of course, neighbors were getting A, suspicious and B, pissed off.
Em Schulz: Mm. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Because there's like, people like just camped out in front of this building, sometimes like 45 people in the rain and, you know, it doesn't...
Em Schulz: Like, how did they not, how did people not catch on earlier? How did like the neighbors, like the police not show up and be like, we've never seen a pharmacy with a line out the door. Like...
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, it's hard to say. I think it's a lot of things. I think part of it is that there just was no legal regulation really, of this kind of thing. So it was like, well, it seems relatively above board. Like they have a license, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so at first it, it seemed, umm, like, eh, it's shady, but not much we can do. But honestly, Em, really quickly, people were like, "What the fuck is going on here? We're gonna get to the bottom of it."
Em Schulz: Sure. Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. So it didn't last that long. Umm, so it's looking shady, especially because people would leave the clinics with their prescriptions and immediately start to misuse them, like shoot up in the parking lot. And I guess, uh, the pills they were prescribing were water soluble, which was something that, umm, people who suffered from addiction preferred because you could crush it up and inject it.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, oh, oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Or snort it, and it would hit your bloodstream instantly. And so people would just hop in their cars in the parking lot, or even just like on the sidewalk.
Em Schulz: Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Next to the building and like, shoot up. And so people were sleeping on the sidewalks. People were, you know, I mean, it's, it's...
Em Schulz: I mean, even like, it had to, they had to bring in like a whole like demographic of people that are now just like in neighborhoods that were never there before. And now they're just all like camped out on streets and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It really pissed off the neighbors. And like the neighbors were saying, "You know, I had to shop across the street. I looked out and there's like fights breaking out in the parking lot because people are, you know, high or mad about whatever."
Em Schulz: Or passing out in the street or like they're...
Christine Schiefer: Passing on the street. Like, police are getting called because, you know, brawls are starting. Like, they are definitely not being inconspicuous at all. And one thing, you know, you think about the people who would drive there from really far away, people would camp out out front because they were like, I want my fix. And they'd wake up, umm, in withdrawals and would wanna be the first in line when they opened.
Em Schulz: Right. I mean, if I had an addiction and I knew this place, I would just never leave that street corner. I would just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, it makes total sense. Like, where are you gonna... I'll be back in a few days.
Em Schulz: Or would get high, pass out, wake up, go back inside. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so this is what it was becoming, and of course, Chris, uh, kind of realized this is not a good look. Uh, and he wanted to make it look a little more legitimate. And he said, okay, neighbors are getting mad and suspicious, authorities are gonna start looking into this. And he was like kinda waiting for an investigation to start. He knew it was gonna happen, but so far there was nothing. And that means it gave him time to hire retired DEA investigator, Louis Fisher as their consultant. And so Louis' job was to inspect the clinics and submit a report to the major drug manufacturers who...
Em Schulz: Oh god.
Christine Schiefer: Supplied the opiates. So he basically is saying, "Don't worry, Chris, as long as you keep organized records of your patients and inventories, everything would be fine."
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah, good luck with that. So sometimes drug distributors would visit to do inspections before they would sign off on sending more deliveries for obvious reasons. Like, why are they buying 10,000 Oxys?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it like, I'm sure there were people who were like, we gotta do a little quality control and like pop on in and see, see where this stuff is all going. And so when an interviewer asked whether those inspectors found anything suspicious, uh, Louis said, suspicious is not really defined in the law. It's a judgment call. I'm like, that seems like you're just trying to evade telling us what was so suspicious but.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, it sounds like you're friends with these guys and not really trying to uphold anything.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It seems like you're not, mm, telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It was hugely profitable. This is where it gets dicey because you have to remember that these giant pharmaceutical companies that are technically above board are also raking in the billions because they're, they're, they're profiting off of all these drugs being bought and made. And so they were pretty easily able to ignore the red flags. In fact, it was profitable for everyone because a single delivery to the clinic could be worth $1 million on the streets. So it was almost like they were funneling money into the area this way...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer:In the worst way, in the worst possible way. Uh, opiates were all but totally unregulated in Florida, so the drugs just kept coming and there was not really anything to stop it, you know. Uh, they were out on the streets just as fast as they arrived at the clinics. They were just being, what do you call it? Just being, I don't know, shoved out the door, just being...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Thrown out like candy into the crowd. Umm, I don't know why that was my imagery. You know what a parade when they throw candy? Anyway.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I got it. I got it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Good good good good. So to further legitimize his prescribing doctors, Chris hired a man who owned a mobile, mobile? Mobile? Mobile MRI unit. Umm.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: That'll do it. I bet that was also a Craigslist ad. Uh, just a guess. Just a guess.
Em Schulz: I feel like he's gonna show up and like this MRI will just be like some weird garage contraption. It's like, "Stick your head in here." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like a off-brand tablet that he's like, "Just, uh, stand against that wall and we'll scan you."
Em Schulz: As it's like zapping. It's like.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: It makes some sound effects. It's just an app he downloaded. Yeah. I feel like that's kinda what was happening. Umm, especially when you consider that they installed the mobile MRI unit behind the neighboring strip club.
Em Schulz: Oh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And that is where they would conduct these, uh, alleged MRIs. Anyone who wanted pain medication could go to the mobile MRI machine and their MRI results were sent to one of the George's pain clinics within the hour, and then the doctor would prescribe pain medication to treat whatever injuries, or not injuries, I guess, that the MRI detected. So while this is all going on, like, I hope they knew, I feel like Chris knew, Jeff might not have known but they were heading toward...
Em Schulz: A catastrophe? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Catastrophe. That's exactly the word. Catastrophe.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Trouble was a-brewing, okay? Uh, by the time local investigators were really beginning to get to the bottom of this, most of the Georges' patients were not even from the state of Florida. They were traveling thousands of miles from other states to get to the clinics. And Jeff George said in an interview, while laughing, "We created a new form of tourism," so.
Em Schulz: Ha ha, ha ha.
Christine Schiefer: He finds this ha ha, hilarious. Meanwhile, competitors started opening pain clinics throughout Florida, which became known as pill mills.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Chris led basically a pain clinic mafia. He and his friends terrorized their competitors, uh, with threatening phone calls. He would even show up and harass them in the parking lot before they went into work that day. He was trying to reign supreme as the Florida pain clinic. He did not want these competitors messing with his business. They once even used ball bearings and slingshots to shoot out and destroy an office's windows and computers just to, uh...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Just to give them an advantage, I guess.
Em Schulz: I feel, I feel like, and I, I guess it's just the growing up with no consequences and like somehow still getting away with this after all this time, but like, I feel like their thought is probably, "Well, we'll just call our lawyer and just, you know, you can do whatever you want. We can slingshot windows and cause threat... " Like, those are real issues. Like, they can't...
Christine Schiefer: Those are... That's assault and also property damage and...
Em Schulz: It's wild that they just, it doesn't even occur to them though like, oh, this isn't something our lawyer like, can't handle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, we'll get out of it some way or another.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's just so brazen.
Christine Schiefer: There's always a way out. That's the thought process and, oh god, it's just, uh, it just gets so much worse. Okay. So still, despite their, uh, guerilla tactics, I guess, uh, more pain clinics opened as demand increased and as media started putting pressure on the Georges' clinics for all the trouble they were causing, uh, major drug distributors simply advised Chris to change their business name to shake off the scrutiny, basically.
Em Schulz: To what? To what?
Christine Schiefer: American Pain.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Boring. But the fact that the drug companies were the ones that said change the name, make it sound more legitimate. Like, they're totally in on it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's sick.
Em Schulz: There had to be someone higher up that was in on it. Did they get busted? Like, or were they just this clueless? Like.
Christine Schiefer: No, I mean, I think like the drug companies are just such big stalwart, like there's just nothing, no recourse, you know?
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: So they're saying, okay, why don't you change the name then people won't be as suspicious. Uh, so they did, they became American Pain. Meanwhile, opiate deaths were through the fucking roof. Hospitals and first responders were seeing overdoses, DUI accidents beyond anything they had ever experienced. It was shocking. It was upsetting, uh, to everyone but the George brothers. So a retired FBI agent who worked on the case said, "the George brothers did not start the opioid crisis, but they sure as hell poured gasoline on the fire."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "They became the largest street level distribution group operating in the entire United States. Nobody put, nobody put more pills on the streets than they did. Nobody."
Em Schulz: That's incredible. And like...
Christine Schiefer: It's incredible.
Em Schulz: Alright. So I mean, they were, they did, I don't know if they were fully responsible, but they definitely were partially responsible then for at least a few overdose deaths, right?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes, yes. And we will definitely get into that.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause you're exactly right. Of the 20 physicians who prescribed the most oxycodone in the entire country, five, so 25% of them worked at just one of Chris' clinics.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: That's how bad this place was. But of course, competitive as ever, Chris was like, "Hell yeah, that's a win for us." You know, not seeing like the giant red flags of like, umm, you're gonna get busted, okay?
Em Schulz: I like how he's trying to high-five people on this. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right. He's like so impressed. He's like, I guess I'm gonna buy another treasure boat. You know, like, okay, fuck you. He did not think this would be a red flag. He basically said, I wanted my doctors to be the top prescribing doctors in the country. To me that was an accomplishment. And to that, I say it's not an accomplishment if you just say everyone can get pills. Here you go. It's not really impressive.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I was gonna say pat on the back for you then, high-five. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Good job, bud. But Chris eventually sold nearly half a billion with a B pills...
Em Schulz: Uh. [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Half a billion pills just under Chris' operation. And...
Em Schulz: I would be living under like, unbridled fear. Like just...
Christine Schiefer: Terror.
Em Schulz: Just total terror that today's the day I'm gonna get busted. Today's the day I'm gonna get busted.
Christine Schiefer: For sure.
Em Schulz: Like, at least like half a billion. You have to at least look at the numbers of other places and kind of pretend to match them, like.
Christine Schiefer: Pretend to like be legit a little bit, but no.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. I'd be...
Christine Schiefer: They've just lost all grasp of reality here.
Em Schulz: I'd be just so terrified.
Christine Schiefer: And it's almost a good thing in the end 'cause it's what got them caught. But still, it's like how fucked up that they had to, the, the amount of those pills that ended up killing people, causing addiction, creating addiction, I mean, it's, it's really sickening.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Chris, Jeff and all of their employees knew very well that people were dying. This was in the papers every day, these opioid deaths, uh, in Florida, as you can imagine, incredibly high numbers daily of people dying of overdoses. They just did not give a shit. They didn't give a single shit. I'll give you an example. When Chris found out three patients had driven away from his clinic after misusing the medication they received from him and got hit by a train...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Which killed two of the passengers, he laughed on the phone and said, "You gotta be an idiot to get hit by a train."
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: That was like his literal reaction. And...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if it was happening yet, but authorities were definitely tapping their phones. So that would be a very chilling thing to overhear, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it's really, uh, oh, speaking of chilling, investigators later said they found the brothers' absolute lack of care for human life quote, "chilling".
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, the FBI, DEA, IRS and local authorities were closing in on the clinics, but they needed more hardcore, hard hitting evidence of the crimes before they like really swooped in.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: When other clinics started to get raided, John Paul George, the dad, got nervous for his sons and thought uh-oh, 'cause he knows, he knows what the fuck they're up to. Like, he's suddenly buying his own treasure boats, okay? So his dad...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: His dad's like, wait a second, he's not asking me for money. He must be doing some sort of, some sort of racket.
Em Schulz: Something is going on. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Something suspicious is happening. And he called Chris and he said, "The arrests are widening. So, I don't know, be careful or something." Great advice. Thank you dad.
Em Schulz: Or something. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Chris insisted he was doing nothing wrong and therefore couldn't get in trouble. And John Paul, his dad said, "Don't think they're not building a case, Chris." And so he suggested Chris put his assets offshore in Belize to hide them.
Em Schulz: Classic.
Christine Schiefer: Classic. Instead, the brothers hid $4 million in safes in their mom's attic, in case investigators did search their houses, they did, spoiler alert, [laughter] uh, and the clinics. Chris believed Jeff was being too careless with his dealings and would soon be arrested. But Chris thinking he was like the more savvy business-minded one and like less the kind of, uh, creative whatever one, he thought, okay, Jeff is being an idiot, he's gonna get arrested. But I am being super careful, so I'm fine. Ah, famous last words.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: In reality, both brothers were living outrageous lifestyles, spending millions on cars, boats, houses, trips, and anything they wanted. Like just the classic trope of like, you illegally obtain all this money and suddenly you have like three Bentleys in the garage and...
Em Schulz: It, it like, doesn't surprise me at all with their like, their impulsiveness to do anything. Of course, it would fall into them spending.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. And they would spend it like that. And on other people, on women, on strip clubs, on cigars, like, and you know, just the cliche of like what a 30-year-old douchebag would spend his illegally earned millions of dollars on the backs of people who are overdosing. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, so you get it. The FBI just had to prove there was a crime being committed. They could not mess this up. It was difficult to get anyone undercover as a patient. Uh, Derik Nolan was Chris' longtime friend and the muscle of the operation. Yeah, this like any, like any uh, reputable medical office, they have a bouncer.
Em Schulz: There's a muscle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, okay. Uh, but I can see why they would need security. You know, if people are either high or they're, uh, trying to get their fix or what have you, like I'm sure...
Em Schulz: Well, if someone's even like attacking them or want more or they're upset with an account.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, like tensions could really escalate very fast. So I do understand it. Umm, but so Derik Nolan, he was the muscle, so to speak, and what he would do is stand in the office and keep people under control. And, uh, if he didn't, people basically treated the, the clinic, like they described it as like Mardi Gras. Every...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Places would just park in the parking lot campers, hang out all day outside partying.
Em Schulz: It was like Woodstock. They were just like getting fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Taking pills. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, taking pills, uh, bringing their campers from other states and just parking out in the parking lot. Umm, it was just chaotic. And so, patients could also bribe secretaries to get earlier MRI appointments or faster prescriptions. So even what they're doing was not enough for some people. Like, they were asking for more. I mean, this is addiction, you know, they're asking for earlier prescriptions for more pills. And the secretaries pocketed so much cash daily from these bribes that Chris started taxing them hundreds of dollars a day and they still profited.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, oh my god, I was gonna say, were Chris and Jeff even aware that now like there were other wheelings and dealings...
Christine Schiefer: Great question.
Em Schulz: Inside of this wheeling and dealing? You know.
Christine Schiefer: Great question. They apparently were, and their solution was, "Fine, but I get a cut." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: One clinic alone was bringing in tens of millions of dollars at one clinic.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Okay. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: It's crazy. There was so much cash passing through their hands to fit in a register, they simply kept large garbage cans behind the counter and they would just toss money into garbage bags, like the big lawn bags and, and big metal trash bags. They would just store it in those. They were like, there's not room in the safe. There's not room in the cash register.
Em Schulz: Oh, what a problem to have.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Big problems to have.
Em Schulz: That's where I keep all my wads of cash too, by the way, so.
Christine Schiefer: Just in the trash. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sad. There was too much cash. Oh, sorry. Still Derik tried to make the... Oh, okay. Sorry. So still, Derik, the muscle tried to make the clinic look professional from the outside and he prided himself on recognizing undercover officers and informants. So he was keeping...
Em Schulz: Oh, lucky you. You can sniff 'em out.
Christine Schiefer: What a skill. Yeah. He's basically eyeing these people and saying like, I don't trust this one. He looks like a cop, you know.
Em Schulz: So what would he do in that event? Like if there was...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure they would probably say something like, "Oh sorry, no appointments today."
Em Schulz: Yeah, right. Like, but like, they, that alone wouldn't petrify them into like getting their shit together 'cause I'd be like, if there's a cop in this place and everyone else is like clearly like an addict or going through something and desperate for, like how, how do they think that guy isn't taking inventory of what's happening in the room around him?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, my thought is Chris and Jeff's dad told them they're smarter than the police...
Em Schulz: Right, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And don't worry about it. So my thought is they probably were like, oh yeah, they're trying to see if anything shady is going on, but it's not. They probably convinced themselves they're doing this technically above board and no consequences, so...
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: As long as we kick them out before they can, you know, actually get anything on us.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine having that kind of confidence. I can't imagine it.
Christine Schiefer: And that pressure from, like yeah, I would crumble immediately under that kind of pressure, but...
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I guess not. So one undercover investigator flew right under Derik's little nose and he did not catch on.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Well, I love that because I love when a narcissist says he's good at something and then he's not. So he's like, I'm really good at figuring out the cops.
Christine Schiefer: This is the security guy, Derik, the friend.
Em Schulz: Oh, right, right, right, right, right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So, I mean, who's to say he's not also a narcissist? I don't know that. But he is the brawn.
Em Schulz: Let me, let me rephrase. Let me rephrase. I love when men say that they're good at something and then they're not. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I love when a man named Derik tries to tell me he knows everything about other people [laughter] and then just fucking gets duped, you know?
Em Schulz: Gotcha Derik. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha Derik. Uh, so one undercover investigator flew under the radar, and let me tell you why, because he looked just like George and Jeff, like the roided out bros that...
Em Schulz: Shut up. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He, which is hilarious. This undercover cop was like, oh, I can get in there, watch. He was this really bulky dude. He wore an affliction brand t-shirt to work one day. So this guy, he, so Saoirse wrote a note here that like literally says, "I'm not even joking. Picture a buffer Zak Bagans."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Said that's the vibe down to the shirt brand. But this is what this guy wore every day. And so one day, he went to work and his other investigators, his boss said, "Hey, would you wanna join this case undercover?" And he's like, okay. He shows up to the clinic and they let him right on in. He looks like one of them, you know.
Em Schulz: Of course, of course.
Christine Schiefer: He told the prescribing doctor that he drinks several beers a day and he thought this would help him blend in. But the doctor said he felt uncomfortable prescribing medication to someone who drinks frequently. So he brought Chris in to consult as an expert "expert." Uh, so Chris comes in and he's like, "Oh yes, I have medical background." Like obviously this undercover officer knows that's not true. Umm, and he told him, "You know what? Why don't you go to a different clinic?" Uh, Chris said, "I'll, uh, I'll call ahead, I'll make sure you get in right away and, uh, just make sure you leave out any details about the drinking 'cause they probably...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: They might not prescribe it if you say that, but just lie about that, and you can go over to this other clinic." [laughter] So the investigator's like, "Well, man, I'd hate for you to lose out on business." Like, he's clearly trying to get this guy to be like, "You're right. Here's a bunch of pills."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But Chris replied, "Dude, all the clinics are exactly the same. Don't even worry about it." And that was enough evidence, that was enough evidence because they needed proof of medical fraud, prescription fraud, and even tax fraud.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And they felt like, you know what? We've got, we've got enough. So on March 3rd, 2010, the Georges' empire came crashing down when the FBI, the DIA, IRS and County Sheriff's Office used warrants to raid the clinics as well as Chris' house, Jeff's and even their mother Denice, where remember, they hid $4 million in the attic.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Jeff, Chris, Denice, and 29 others, including 13 doctors were charged under the federal RICO Act, which targets organized crime.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So now they're considered like an organized crime pocket.
Em Schulz: Well, they had the muscle, so.
Christine Schiefer: I guess they had muscle! You're automatically in at that point. Denice was charged with 30 months in prison for conspiracy to commit wire fraud uh because she had lied on paperwork to misrepresent how many patients were coming from out-of-state, basically, they'd been cooking the books and the whole family was in on it.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Chris pleaded guilty to racketeering conspiracy, he was sentenced to 17 years in prison.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: But only served 11 and was released in 2021. Jeff also pleaded guilty to a racketeering charge and was sentenced to 15 and a half years. He was also found guilty of second degree felony murder due to a patient's fatal overdose linked to his clinic, which came with a second 20-year sentence.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: And he is still in prison. Investigators painstakingly processed the files for 28,000 patients that had gone through it.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And by the way, that's 28,000 individual patients, and most of these people were coming again and again weekly, monthly, some daily.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so twenty...
Em Schulz: I can't imagine the paper work.
Christine Schiefer: 28,000 but times however many visits per patient, you know.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: 28,000. And from those files, they pulled 300 random files 'cause they're like, "We're not going through all 28,000." Picked three 300 random ones, and they found that a shocking, of those 300 patients, 10% of them had died due to overdose or DUI incidents.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: 10%...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Of the random sample had died due to overdose and DUI incidents. That's crazy. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: That meant an estimated 3000 deaths could be directly linked to these two brothers.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And their patients, which doesn't even include the deaths due to the pills that were just brought to other states and sold on the street, you know. Like, these pills went farther than just these patients like drug dealers were coming in and getting pills and selling them so that's not even...
Em Schulz: So we don't even know how many people it reached. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so it must have... I mean, you know, it...
Em Schulz: But we can just guess, at least 3000 people died.
Christine Schiefer: We can imagine. Like 3000 is the actual number they believe were linked to the brothers, like that's a pretty good...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Pretty solid guess, we just don't know beyond the scope of their patients, like how many people in Appalachia or wherever, uh, died as a result of these pills crossing state borders.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: And uh, despite largely being considered the kingpin of the country's worst and biggest opiate operation of all time, Chris feels like he did nothing wrong.
Em Schulz: Of course. Well, he's better than everybody and so and he's an entrepreneur, he's an entrepreneur.
Christine Schiefer: I said so. That's right, his daddy said so. He said in an interview, it's their responsibility. They're responsible for themselves. I'm not. I don't think we created more addicts. They were already here.
Em Schulz: Oh, shut up. Especially like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: Like you know he's one of those people who's like, well, I didn't make them take the drugs. It's like, what are you talking about? They're addicts. What are you talking about? They, you encouraged it. You encouraged this.
Christine Schiefer: You knew, you knew people were dying because you were giving them easy access, it's sick. And also like not for nothing, but these, think about the people who had never touched the drug.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Went maybe just to try it or had pain, went there, and all of a sudden, they had like full-blown access and they've fallen deep into this addiction because they opened the door for them, you know.
Em Schulz: Exactly, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I think one of the... Like, they in, they actually, in one of the documentaries, they, umm, interviewed, uh, victims of these guys, and for example, there were two moms whose kids died of overdoses.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: One girl was 18, umm and one son was, I think 30, 30 something, and they talked about like they these people killed my daughter. Like, they made it possible for her to have easy access. They didn't know. Checks, nothing, just like sign a paper. There you go.
Em Schulz: Was part of their umm charges, the uh, like third degree murder or manslaughter or something?
Christine Schiefer: No, so the only charge was the one that, uh, Jeff got. Uh, let me see, which was the second degree felony murder due to, uh, a patient's fatal overdose linked to the clinic.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Right.
Christine Schiefer: That was the only one that really stuck or went anywhere.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he did get 20 years for that, but yeah, everyone else just kind of...
Em Schulz: I mean they'd be in jail for life, if that was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: For life and another life and another life. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like that would have to be just multiplied exponentially. Okay, let's see, bah, bah, bah. However, despite denying that he did anything wrong, Chris also said they didn't wanna go after big pharma, they didn't wanna go after big distributors, they just wanted us. We're nobodies. The money we made is peanuts compared to what big pharma made over the years and...
Em Schulz: We're victims. We're victims.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we're victims now. Okay, I mean, it is true that major pharmaceutical companies continue to come under well-deserved fire for their alleged mishandling of opiates, this is like obviously a big thing in the news right now, even drug stores like Walgreens, Walmart and CVS have agreed to lawsuit settlements in the billions for their roles in the opiate crisis.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But communities throughout the country continue to struggle with substance abuse disorders, SUD, and according to experts, criminalizing and regulating drugs is only a small piece of the puzzle, although it is where most of the funding goes, I think that's how our country usually sets up these kind of uh attacks on...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: War on drugs. In fact, experts have found that SUDs don't fit the biological and genetic mold that we've been presented with for so long. So this is really interesting. Many people believe some people are just more likely to have substance use disorders based on genetics or some other fact, that there's simply nothing to be done if you are genetically predisposed, but apparently the reality is far more complicated.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Many people misuse medication and use illicit drugs to avoid, say, the crushing reality of poverty, to escape like the day-to-day abuse they face, uh, at the hands of a partner, a parent and PTSD, trauma. Just things that, you know, we can't even begin to imagine. And so people cope in that way, and so it's not just like, "Oh, well, you started a drug, so you... It's your fucking fault you're an addict."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's like, first of all, this is all legally, like these pharmaceutical companies are making billions off of this, and then you turn to the person who's taking the drugs and you're like, "Oh, you're just scum," you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's all very, I don't know, classist backwards, there's a lot of...
Em Schulz: A lot of isms that go into this.
Christine Schiefer: A lot of isms and a lot of, uh, complexity to this. And of course, in a country where we don't really get medical care [laughter]...
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, people are seeking real pain relief from injuries, chronic illnesses, mental illness. I mean, people are looking for help, they're looking for something to help with their, uh, smothering, debilitating anxiety, so they're like, "Oh, okay, they'll give me Xanax, I'm, I can't afford to go to a primary care doctor."
Em Schulz: Well, yeah, people are just desperate for help, yeah and like...
Christine Schiefer: For help.
Em Schulz: And we don't have a lot of access to help, so people are...
Christine Schiefer: And the FDA approved opiates as a safe drug, so why are you blaming the people taking it? They, they're taking, I mean, they're taking something that the government said A-OK.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Go ahead. It's safe, it's legal, it's prescribed. Walgreens will give it to ya. And uh, you know, a lot of these people really... Like, I started painkillers in college for my Crohn's disease, and it was the only thing that let me sleep at night. Like I could not sleep if I hadn't taken a Percocet because I was in so much constant debilitating, like the kind of pain where you, well, the kind of pain where you have like six ulcers just bleeding out in your tummy.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like just debilitating pain.
Em Schulz: Not equivalent, uh, pain-wise, but when I was, up until I got my surgery for my heart, I was, there was a really dark time where I was, uh, really riddled with anxiety, I developed agoraphobia, and like to an extreme level, I couldn't like open the door to grab like DoorDash, like and the only way I could survive was taking Xanax and it was, and I remember thinking, oh, I could see how this could become a problem for people because it...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's so it just makes you be able to breathe or even if you're having anxiety, at least you're having incredibly less anxiety, and like.
Christine Schiefer: It like helps you function.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And like this is a world where we have to function if we wanna get the rent in on time or, you know, pick our kids up from school or do our job. I mean, whatever it is, like it's such, we don't live in a society where it's easy to address most health concerns in an inexpensive and a easily accessible way that is safe, and I mean, there's just countless reasons why somebody might need Xanax, why somebody might need an opiate, a pain killer, oxy, like I mean, I get it. I was there.
Em Schulz: I mean, there's people everyday like... There's also people every day that are on them just because they're just getting out of surgery.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And like then there's a complication with the surgery, and now all of a sudden, you're on it for longer and then you just, I mean, like.
Christine Schiefer: You develop this reliance on it and it's, it could happen to anyone and it does happen to anyone.
Em Schulz: I have a family member who has an incredibly bad back, has had like 12 surgeries on her back and is always on and off opiates, on and off pain killers, and like, luckily, that's not, it hasn't become a situation for her, but how easy it could be a situation for anyone.
Christine Schiefer: It could be. And I was in that boat as well where I was taking it and I remember when I went back to the doctor, and at the time I didn't, I was like 19, I didn't really realize at the time. It was like 2009, it was probably in the height of all this opiate stuff becoming more recognizable as a problem? But at the time, it was still prescribed pretty regularly, and I got that as a prescription because I was in so much pain and I was like, "Oh, thank god, finally something that lets me go to class" 'cause I couldn't go to class unless I had taken something for the pain. And I went in and I said, like a few weeks later, and I said, "Okay, I'd love another prescription, it's really the only way that I can function during the day," and she was like, "Umm, no, we are not prescribing you anymore." And I remember walking out of the clinic and I had, which now I know is a panic attack, but I thought I was having a heart attack...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I went to the roof of the hospital and I called my mom and I said, "I'm driving home." And she was like, "Okay, drive home." And I walked back to my dorm, and I wrote a note to Allison and I said, "I'm driving home to Ohio. Uh, Bye." And I got in my car that night, I just drove all the way home...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And I couldn't take a pain killer because I was driving, and so I was just screaming the entire drive, like, just as a way of distracting myself, just screaming, screaming. But it's like I needed a pain killer to function, and so it didn't get to that point because they cut me off obviously, and I didn't have anyone to buy from on the street, so I don't know how to do that. So it could have gone in a very different direction. Like, I didn't even understand that it was addictive at the time, I just thought, "Well, this is the only way I can get out of bed."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so, I, so deeply understand that. And as someone who also takes Klonopin, I'm like, I have to be really careful because you get to taking it, you're like, I'll take an extra one today 'cause I'm extra stressed and it can become such a vicious cycle.
Em Schulz: And it's so under the radar when at first, when it can first start. I think most people who are in situations where they have drug problems, it did not start overnight, it started with good intentions and things just going wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. A lot of times you start legally like how it would have gone with me. I got it from my doctor, they refused to prescribe more, maybe I went to a pain clinic and said, "I need this for my Crohn's disease," and, you know, it gets out of hand and it's an easy slippery slope, and it's really not fair to say, "Oh, well, these people, they're in control of themselves, not me."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, okay, got it. It's really, really sad and scary, and so anyway, I just have quite a lot of empathy for people going through that, and if you are going through that, we're here for you. There are a lot of resources that I'll tell you at the end that you can check out, umm, 'cause there is a way out, even though it seems impossible. So the National Harm Reduction Coalition believes that drug use can never be fully eliminated from the world, which I tend to agree with, but the risks of drug-related injuries and death can be reduced by allowing people access to education, other resources, uh, other mental health resources, other physical health resources, and they have eight foundational principles central to harm reduction. So I'm just gonna read a couple of them real quick. Number three is establishes quality of individual and community life and well-being, not necessarily cessation of all drug use as the criteria for successful interventions and policies, so it's almost like improve your quality of life and your connection to community. You don't necessarily have to go cold turkey on drugs...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But we can at least structure things better for people to have a, I don't know, a more stable, a more supportive community around them.
Em Schulz: Okay, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Number seven says, recognizes that the realities of poverty, class racism, social isolation, past trauma, sex-based discrimination and other social inequalities affect both people's vulnerability to and capacity for effectively dealing with drug-related harm.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it's not a one-size-fits-all. In fact, it's quite the opposite. People in marginalized groups, for example, are much more likely to struggle getting out of this kind of a cycle, especially if they don't have the kind of community support and that kinda thing that we mentioned earlier. The idea is that socio-economic issues must be tackled to make a real change in drug-related harm. So basically, it's a much broader issue than just police going out and saying, "Oh, I'm arresting you for having drugs."
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: That's not gonna do it. It's gonna keep happening. Someone else is gonna step in and sell drugs or take drugs. I mean, that's just a very small-minded way to address the problem.
Em Schulz: Great point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and so the idea is that we gotta start with the socio-economic issues and focus on those if we're gonna make a real change in drug-elated harm within communities, especially poverty-stricken communities, and although drug use will always exist, the goal is to make sure communities and individuals within them are able to stay safe and healthy despite drugs probably being around forever, in whatever form, vapor drugs, what are they called? Holographic drugs in the future. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say the drugs that don't even exist yet.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that we've never even heard of with crazy names. I'm sure it'll always happen, that's just kind of human societal nature, but they're at least hoping to reduce harm, uh, which is I think a really, really cool goal to have.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so that is called the National Harm Reduction Coalition, and you can find them at harmreduction.org, and they have a really great, uh, resource center, and again, this is where I wanna do my little shout-out about Naloxone. If you are able to, it's an awesome thing to have on hand. It basically reverses the effects of an overdose, I mean, that's probably in very simplified terms. Umm. Let me just read the actual definition, so I don't...
Em Schulz: What's it called again?
Christine Schiefer: So there's Naloxone and Narcan.
Em Schulz: Narcan, I've heard of.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, umm. I just wanna find a...
Em Schulz: A definition.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so essentially what it does, it's basically what I said but probably said in a better way. Naloxone is a medicine that rapidly reverses an opioid overdose. Umm. It's an opioid antagonist, and this is from the National Institute on Drug Abuse. This means, well, it's the science-y stuff, you guys can go read on your own, umm, but it can quickly restore breathing to a person if their breathing has slowed or stopped because of an opioid overdose.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it has no effect on somebody who has not taken, who has no opioids in their system, and it's also not a treatment for opioid use disorder, but it can help save a life, and so this is something we always had on us in LA, and now, as we know, it's just a widespread nationwide, uh, epidemic really. It's very, very scary. So if you can grab yourself some Narcan, just in case, keep it in your car.
Em Schulz: Just in case.
Christine Schiefer: I'd see people sometimes pull over, park the car and help somebody on a street corner who is unconscious, and it's like...
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: That kinda thing. So yeah, it can't hurt to have on you, it can save a life, umm, restore someone's breathing if they're going through that, and it's worth looking into. So that is the story of the George brothers, two motherfucking douchebags.
Em Schulz: Wow. And for their, as you said in the beginning, for their dad to go, "Eh, boys will be boys or why look at them," crazy.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah. That's the crazy thing is like when he was interviewed, he's like, "You know, they were always going a little too far with their shenanigans," and I'm like, "Aha, okay, is that what we're calling it?"
Em Schulz: You're just calling them rabble-rousers. Look at them just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like they're just a couple of little hooligans. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ugh, god.
Christine Schiefer: Here's a picture of him with his truck, by the way, like you're gonna lose your effing mind. Okay, here is Jeff with his truck.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Oh my god, gross.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: God. He's standing next to it like if it were a fish, she would hold it. He's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Like, you know that's on his Hinge profile or something. Oh, he's so gross.
Christine Schiefer: Gross. Doesn't he look like, uh...
Em Schulz: He looks like Zak Bagans' friend.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he looks like the guy, I wanna look up Derik, whatever.
Em Schulz: He looks like Nick Lachey kind of.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, but on steroids, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wanna know what Derik looked like because Saoirse described it and I'm like, "I need to see this for myself." Umm, Derik Nolan.
Em Schulz: This monster truck, I can't even stand...
Christine Schiefer: The monster truck is ridiculous.
Em Schulz: The eyes, the whole situation. He's trying to give a smoulder but he's just giving douchebag face.
Christine Schiefer: Oh lord.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: It's ugh.
Em Schulz: Boys will be boys.
Christine Schiefer: It's honestly beyond. And the fact that it was so recent, always is just jarring.
Em Schulz: Yeah, with the amount, it really does terrify me about how people can get away with something that's so obvious for so long because in my mind, that story had to have happened decades and decades and decades ago.
Christine Schiefer: Before the Internet or something, yeah.
Em Schulz: Before the Internet or before regulations.
Christine Schiefer: Before phone tapping or before regulations. It was sort of before regulation. So it was like they got in this loop hole where it was like, "Oh, you can definitely sell painkillers in Florida for no reason whatsoever, you know."
Em Schulz: It's just wild.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. And I will say too, I know this is kind of off track a little bit, but my brother and I just did an episode, uh, on Florida, we read reviews of Florida Man, and it was like basically anything kind of Florida Man related. And we ended up reading quite a few really interesting articles umm, about the Florida Man trope and how it has some problematic connotations, which, like, neither of us had really thought of before just because, you know, like, they're funny. You know, like, oh, Florida man drives whatever, through Walmart front door with alligator in toe.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Or whatever these like Florida Man articles are. But a couple of people wrote in and we had seen these articles as well, and so we gave a caveat at the beginning of the show, which of course, pissed some people off, but, uh, it was just to say like there's a reason why a lot of Florida Man stories happen in Florida. Uh, lack of mental health resources. A lot of it is mental health problems that are not being treated. Poverty, uh, disparity between classes, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There's so much to it that like, it almost has a darker connotation when you dig a little, scratch past the surface of like, "Ha ha, this weirdo drove his thing into a Walmart," and you know it's like a lot of that is probably drugs, mental health, things that are not being properly regulated because of some certain people who run that state.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, it's an interesting thing to think about, especially when I read this, I was like, "Aha, I see how..."
Em Schulz: Sure, perspective.
Christine Schiefer: "Florida could become a place where this would happen because this stuff isn't getting regulated."
Em Schulz: Yeah, Florida Man only exists because Florida maybe needs to update some things.
Christine Schiefer: Not, yeah, not taking care of its people.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so, anyway, that's all. That's my soap box. I'll hop right off and uh, let you talk for a second.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, here I am, and that's why we drink because Florida is really hurting in a lot of ways, and people are hurting in a lot of ways, and I talked about a demon, so I don't really know how much that's affecting other people, but it is, it's probably hurting someone out there who's also got a demon going on.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, if you've got a demon, just let us know 'cause we wanna know about it.
Em Schulz: I don't know how to regulate that one for you, um, but I have heard you can hang garlic and that will be it. That's all you need to do.
Christine Schiefer: I might do that anyway for my own mental health. I feel like that would be a nice smell for me to have around.
Em Schulz: I would like to hang some roasted garlic over my dinner and then eat it with the rest of my dinner.
Christine Schiefer: I love some roasted garlic. Ugh.
Em Schulz: What, maybe you should hang some garlic over your creepy little pictures, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: I'm still thinking about that one girl who was posing with her hat. I just think she's so funny.
Christine Schiefer: I think she is a champion and an icon.
Em Schulz: Well, we did find out the like, no, we didn't find anything up, but we thought, oh, maybe she's doing that because her husband was off at war or something, but.
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, I don't think it was that. I think it was more that, I don't know, again, this might be just totally off base, but I think the way it was phrased was, sometimes people would put the item of a lost loved one, and since that was quite a women's hat from back then, I wonder if it was her mother or like someone she'd lost, which makes us look like assholes, but we didn't know. She looked like a fashionista. Maybe it was Maude.
Em Schulz: It was Yvette.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was that fucking Mr. Nobody wearing that hat, and we just can't see him.
Em Schulz: I do like to think that even if I'm taking a picture and it's got some sort of sad history to it, if in 100 years it's making people giggle 'cause I look really cool in some way or like a fashionista...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah!
Em Schulz: I think I could be okay with that. If she showed up today or if we went to her and we were like, "Girl, what is the story behind this picture?" And then she said something really morbid, I'd feel so bad, but I'd be like, "Ugh, okay, but this is what it looked like to us and you were killing it." You know.
Christine Schiefer: We rebranded it for you. I hope it's okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Well, apparently, tomorrow I will be checking the mail and seeing if umm, anyone sent me anything like that, and if you would like to send this stuff by the way, because we do do gift videos on Patreon, you can set it to 1920 Hillhurst Ave, Box 265, Los Angeles, California 90027.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. And when we say we do gift videos, I do not because I get my mail here in Kentucky, but I do open it all and uh it brings me so much joy and I keep everything.
Em Schulz: It'd be cool if you did. It'd be cool if you did.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I did a couple. I did do a couple. So maybe it's just hard because some of them are beach too sandy, so they get kind of, gets all mixed up, but I can definitely try to start doing that again, but if you have sent something, don't worry, your gifts are deeply appreciated. I've opened all of them and I love them all. And for Em...
Em Schulz: You can watch me and Eva open the gifts in Los Angeles.
Christine Schiefer: I meant Eva open it. That's right.
Em Schulz: And we have a great time with that. We make a whole day of it. We get Cheesecake Factory delivered. It's a good time, so.
Christine Schiefer: I just cry in my corner and wait, wait for the day.
Em Schulz: You can move back to LA, my friend. Have all the cheesecake you never want. I'll, here I have it, I'll put it on my card for you. Totally free, one cheesecake if you...
Christine Schiefer: Put what on my card? Oh, a cheesecake.
Em Schulz: Cheesecake Factory.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I...
Em Schulz: Speaking of which...
Christine Schiefer: Could go eat some cheesecake at The Cheesecake Factory near my house.
Em Schulz: I just discovered the tiramisu cheesecake at Cheesecake Factory, and it's a game changer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, is that good?
Em Schulz: Game changer.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not like a huge tiramisu person.
Em Schulz: I'm a big tiramisu person.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's always the people who don't drink that like tiramisu.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Isn't that weird?
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it's like soaked in rum.
Em Schulz: Coffee, I thought.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Which one am I thinking?
Em Schulz: Like espresso or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's coffee. You're right, I'm sorry, but you also don't drink coffee. Interesting.
Em Schulz: I know. Well, there's something about it, it feels like really, I don't know what it is. I had to... There's, well, actually, now that we're talking about it, I might get a tiramisu.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds delicious.
Em Schulz: There's a tiramisu that I'm obsessed with that gets delivered to my apartment and I really got into it there, so then I think from there, I was able to like try the more intense tiramisus. Anyway, next time you come over, I'll show it to you.
Christine Schiefer: I wanna be a part of it. I will join you next time. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then that's my favorite thing, is introducing people to foods that I like, because there's no way you can go wrong 'cause either I've impressed you by giving you something you love or you hate it, and now I get double and I just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you have. Yes, yes, you have, you have it all.
Em Schulz: I hate when I show someone a food that I like and they're afraid to tell me if they don't like it, because I'm like, well, if you eat it to be nice and you hate it, now we're both having a miserable time because I...
Christine Schiefer: It's a lose lose.
Em Schulz: I could have eaten it and had a great time.
Christine Schiefer: Literally. Like, why not just gift you with the rest.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so I'll buy you a tiramisu the next time you're here and then if you don't like it, wink wink, I hope you don't like it then I'll have twice the fun. So, perfect.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, and also buy me one that I also like so that I can have something to enjoy.
Em Schulz: Sure. We'll see. And...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
