[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hello. Happy Halloween.
Em Schulz: Well when people hear this it'll be like the end of November or something. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Thanksgiving... Oopsie.
Em Schulz: But for us it is the day after Halloween so we're having the scary blues or whatever it's called for Halloween.
Christine Schiefer: I know. The...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: The scary orange and black.
Em Schulz: It's the worst scary Sundays of uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or Monday Blues of the year 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah and it's on a Wednesday bla.
Em Schulz: Bleh. Yeah. I can't even...
Christine Schiefer: Hump day. Hump day. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Roll reversal. Umm, I, uh yeah I'm feeling real down. I feel like the last...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: I'm feeling down but also up? Because both of them are tied to the fact that like the last month or two have felt so overwhelming and like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Especially with Allison's double birthday with Halloween and we always have things going on on the weekends so we really don't get to relax. And it's like I'm just... I'm very glad that we're going into this era where like I have to do less but I'm also now getting that sweeping depression where it's like like, umm, like burnout or something so.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm the where you're crashing sort of.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I've been like... I've... My adrenaline has been... I've been running on steam for the last two months and now it's just like okay goodbye.
Christine Schiefer: It's, uh... It's that... That crash. I feel like you have to be careful 'cause that's always when I get sick like when I'm...
Em Schulz: Me too.
Christine Schiefer: Finally let go of everything and then it's like ah. Oh my fever is back...
Em Schulz: Atchoo. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Atchoo. [laughter] Atchoo. Fuck my life.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. That's... I felt a little tickle of something yesterday.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And I went get it the fuck together and I just... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Into the mirror. Or back in throat...
Em Schulz: It's like there's no way... I... I just thought it like in my brain I was like...
Christine Schiefer: I see...
Em Schulz: You can't possibly feel this way.
Christine Schiefer: You can't possibly do this right now.
Em Schulz: So I'm intentionally hydrating which by the ways get fucking drinking. You filthy little rats.
Christine Schiefer: Cheers.
Em Schulz: And taking my my vits my... My mins and sups.
Christine Schiefer: Good for you.
Em Schulz: And, umm, I'm... I'm not preparing for the worst because I... I am refusing to believe I could get sick but I am just... Having a lot of situational awareness around that if you want. So...
Christine Schiefer: I get it. I totally get it. Well Leona has 103.4 degree fever. Umm...
Em Schulz: Shoot. So you will be sick.
Christine Schiefer: So things are... Things are... You might be if you come anywhere near her since you apparently didn't get any of the toddler diseases. [laughter] Uh no. She's like really fucking sick. And I... We thought it was just teething 'cause she keeps like pointing in her mouth and saying it hurts. But then she got this like raging fever the day before Halloween. And so yesterday...
Em Schulz: The last scare of it all.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. It was a treat and a trick. It was not a treat it was just a trick. Umm, we... We just dressed her up. We gave her Tylenol we dressed her up very briefly like let her sit outside with us. But it was like 40 fucking degrees.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Let her kind of run up and down.
Em Schulz: Hey. In tuberculosis world you did the right thing.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. Yeah. Get some fresh air. Sit around an Adirondack chair. Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just let her... Let the snow blow over her. [laughter] Umm, as her lungs are fixed you know and healed. Umm yeah. So we let her... We let her roam around a little bit just like get the feel for it. She was on fucking cloud nine. We have a new Halloween fanatic in the house.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Her name is Leona. Despite the 103 degree fever. She was like fucking rallying. Like she really nailed it. And she was a Dino rancher...
Em Schulz: Precious...
Christine Schiefer: And, umm, Giovanni was a dino...
Em Schulz: Awww...
Christine Schiefer: So, umm, it was a delight to... To see that. But then she went inside to watch Dino Ranch and sleep. Umm so.
Em Schulz: Umm, precious and also like mother like daughter 'cause if you had a raging fever and should be hospitalized that's your prime time to go.
Christine Schiefer: That's the time to go...
Em Schulz: Let's hang out in the city.
Christine Schiefer: To put on a fun hat and go outside and uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: Talk to the neighbors. Yeah exactly. Uh...
Em Schulz: Let's actually eat a shit load of candy. That'll be good for me. Right?
Christine Schiefer: She had her first Snickers. That was, uh, something else. That was a life-changing moment I could tell. Umm.
Em Schulz: Hmm. You saw her... The twinkle in her eye ignite.
Christine Schiefer: I saw the chocolate all over my pants when she wiped her hand on me. Umm yeah it was a... It was a great time. I do have one exciting reason I drink which is that, umm, I got hit on by a woman...
Em Schulz:[gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And it was incredibly exciting. And Blaise was like, "Oh okay. Great. Cool."
Em Schulz: I... I appreciate that Blaise just let it happen. He was like this is a moment for her.
Christine Schiefer: He actually got hit on a man... By multiple men that same night. So I was like, "You know what let me... "
Em Schulz: Wow. Are you swingers at this point? What's going on?
Christine Schiefer: I mean maybe. I don't know. Umm, no we were... We were at this party and, uh, it was just a Halloween party like a couple doors down. And, umm, the... I don't... I'm trying to... I don't wanna like triangulate anyone but a lot of the neighborhood couples came by and stuff. And, umm, Blaise and I did a a gender... Gender bender umm Taylor Swift costume where...
Em Schulz: Excellent. Excellent.
Christine Schiefer: It was his idea before anybody's like why are you making him wear makeup? I didn't know such thing. He came downstairs and I said, "Where did you get that?" He said, "Your sink." And he had a red lip on. And I was like, "I don't even like that lipstick. So you can keep it I guess." Umm...
Em Schulz: He's having his moment. Look everyone...
Christine Schiefer: He is.
Em Schulz: I... You know what just another reason I love Blaise that he... That's a man by the way. When he's like, I don't even need you to say anything. I'm putting this lipstick on.
Christine Schiefer: He... I mean he came downstairs and at first he thought that his costume... So I... My sister had brought some stuff from where she works at Adidas to like help him with the costume. 'Cause he was wearing like a red... I was was Travis Kelce. He was Taylor Swift. And, umm, I... When she bought the stuff for the costume I also threw in like my order. I wanted some, umm, bicycle shorts like some biker shorts and Blaise thought those were part of his costume. So at first he comes downstairs in like a tank top and like women's volleyball shorts. And I'm like, "What are you wearing with red lipstick?" [laughter] I was like this is a really weird moment. And my mom was there and she was like, "Okay sure. I guess this is what's happening."
Em Schulz: I feel like you... I feel like Renata was like you know what? They've been married long enough it's time to get a little weird. We saw this coming.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The least surprising turn of events I guess. No but he... Yeah. Then I was like, "Those are not... Those are mine. Like you can put on pan... Like normal pants you can put on jeans." And he's like, "Oh thank God." So anyway we went to the party and he had his like little tank top on with like his jacket over his, you know arms. So like people were already eyeing him whether it was just like what... Who...
Em Schulz: What's going on here?
Christine Schiefer: What is that guy doing wearing lipstick. Or like Ooh I'm into that. So he got hit on a few times. So then when, umm, a Rosie the Riveter asked me if I was single. I was like, "Maybe." [laughter]
Em Schulz: What's it to you?
Christine Schiefer: Who wants to know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm and Blaise was like...
Em Schulz: How... You got to... Come on. You're... We are all on the edge of our gay little seats. You got to give us the details. Were... Were there smize? Was there? Did she close on in? What was the line she used?
Christine Schiefer: Well like we were talking...
Em Schulz: Rosie the Riveter. Did she make you feel her muscle? [laughter] Like...
Christine Schiefer: That's a good one. Yeah. Umm, no we were talking about our animal totems and [laughter]..
Em Schulz: Oh My god. Gay. Well that was her sign that you were gay. So...
Christine Schiefer: I know I was also dressed...
Em Schulz: She was like I'm closing in now.
Christine Schiefer: I was also wearing like a football uniform like I was dressed... It was just wierdy.
Em Schulz: Halloween is such a scary day especially for the gays. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: It is so... I mean really it's so confusing it must be...
Em Schulz: How do I read person?
Christine Schiefer: I can't imagine. And then I was like uh... Ah I just was totally and Blaise started laughing and I was like, oh boy. Umm, no she was delightful. Umm and then she was like, "Oh I'm going camping this weekend."
Em Schulz: Gay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And she's like, "I'm gonna do a spell while I'm camping."
Em Schulz: Gay! Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I was like oh my God.
Em Schulz: She really was dropping every fucking hint she could to you. She was like do you wanna see my Subaru or not? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so stupid. I was like, "Wow camping. That sounds terrible... "
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway it was fun. And I felt very... I almost texted you and Eva that night but I was like I'm gonna announce this on the podcast to Em to get their reaction. Umm, live action you know.
Em Schulz: Very. Very excited for you. I...
Christine Schiefer: Thank You.
Em Schulz: Don't think I got hit on even by my own girlfriend. [laughter] So very... I'm very living vicariously through you. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know as a parent I'm like I take these moments and run with them. You know...
Em Schulz: You got to...
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't happen... It doesn't happen often but, umm.
Em Schulz: You got to.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I hung out with people on Halloween who I think might've been gay. I couldn't totally read the situation. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh was it me and Blaise because we were [laughter].. We were sending all sorts of mixed signals.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There was a guy in lipstick. He looked fabulous. I just didn't really know what was going on there though.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. God.
Em Schulz: Umm no we... We hung out with, umm... One of my friends invited us over to walk around their neighborhood and see the Halloween lights but it was like way too overwhelming. And like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It was just... Because it wasn't... I thought it was gonna be like a Fredericksburg, Virginia house with a cul-de-sac and like some cute little lights. I forgot that I live in fucking Los Angeles and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh right. Sure. Like home of special effects and props and...
Em Schulz: Like hired help and everything.
Christine Schiefer: Oh jeez.
Em Schulz: For everyone's mansions. 'Cause they... They took us Toluca Lake which is like... For people who don't live in LA, Toluca Lake is where a lot of celebrities live. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: To be honest I did not know that.
Em Schulz: Oh okay. So yeah it's right next to Warner Brothers like on the other side of the gate. And so it's...
Christine Schiefer: Weird. That's where I lived. No I'm just kidding. We did not. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's... It's right on the other side of a studio lot so it's really easy commuting for...
Christine Schiefer: I see. Accessible. It's out of the like hustle and bustle a bit.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it's like... Like Steve Carell lives there like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: A... A bunch of. Anyway so, umm, there was just too many fucking people. Like... And I know I have like crowd anxiety but this was like... I mean it felt like we were at Disney World. Like you couldn't walk on the sidewalks.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: We... We walked with a group of it was like seven or eight people and we kept getting lost from each other because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: There were so many many people. Umm, we couldn't walk down the road. And then cars were trying to get through and like these... We were just going to look at lights but there were kids there actually trick or treating. And I was like... And there was lines as long as like if you were at Universal waiting to get on a ride. There were lines around the corner to get candy from like the coolest looking houses.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Those...
Em Schulz: And it was...
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine you get up there and they hand you a Dum Dum and they're like you get one. Like I'd be like, "Steve Carell I'm calling the police right now." [laughter]
Em Schulz: There was, umm... There was like... And because it's Hollywood and because either they can afford it or maybe they work like behind the scenes and do this kind of art for their job. The houses were incredible. I mean there was like a Harry Potter themed house and someone literally built a train. Someone built a Hogwarts Express.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure.
Em Schulz: A... Like a real sized... It looked like they bought a train and put it in their backyard.
Christine Schiefer: They Probably did.
Em Schulz: It was... And then they had like a projector playing Harry Potter on the garage door. They had like all this stuff. There was another one that was like all pyrotechnics and their roof looked like it was on fire. And like there was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's a dangerous thing... Game to play in Los Angeles.
Em Schulz: I know. There...
Christine Schiefer: Fake fires.
Em Schulz: There was just... I mean it was just very... If I were the only one on the street I would've been blown away. But so many people being there was kind of...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like that takes away from the magic of it. You're just like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It felt suffocated a little bit...
Christine Schiefer: A sensory overload. Yeah. Yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and also like the people we went with like brought their dogs. And so I was like, oh my God now I'm worried about losing the dogs or the dogs getting in fights. 'Cause everyone had their dogs out. So anyway I appreciated Allison and me making an effort to do something on Halloween night. 'Cause usually we actively stay home to avoid traffic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh so this was last night like Halloween night on Tuesday.
Em Schulz: Halloween night. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's hard when trick or treaters are out and about like you're not getting far.
Em Schulz: It was... It was, umm... Yeah we... The last time I went out on Halloween night in LA was when we first moved here. And I didn't know how crazy the traffic gets.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And then after that I never... I... Al... It's just like a reason to stay home. So this was...
Christine Schiefer: You stay like hunker bunker... Hunkered hunker bunker?
Em Schulz: Hunker bunkered down. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Hunker bunker down.
Em Schulz: So anyway it was, uh... It was us making an attempt to do something and then we realized we won't again. So.
Christine Schiefer: Well to be honest like I am now so thankful based on that story that I live where I do because... Oh by the way a podcast listener came and said hi. We got...
Em Schulz: Oh God. At your house?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] We got up.
Em Schulz: Terrifying.
Christine Schiefer: And she goes, "I live two blocks down." And I was like oh boy...
Em Schulz: Oh. Well don't tell anyone what you saw today.
Christine Schiefer: I know right? I was like, "Okay let's take a photo together," but like away from the number sign on my you know what I mean like...
Em Schulz: All it takes is...
Christine Schiefer: Face the street.
Em Schulz: All it takes is one person to just... I don't know... Just say, I know where she lives.
Christine Schiefer: So. You know who you are my friend I...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I can also release your address. Not that... I don't know what that'll do but I but I know it. I know it. So.
Em Schulz: I had, umm... We had...
Christine Schiefer: Careful. They were very nice and they were carrying wine. I should've known. I should've seen them coming a mile away carrying wine with the like... Like the lid. You know?
Em Schulz: That's a good time.
Christine Schiefer: It was. I was also carrying that outside. So I was like we we meet at last.
Em Schulz: Umm, there were two people that used to live in my apartment building who were big fans. And I was always like, "Please don't tell anyone."
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Yeah. It's kind of funny because you're like, "Oh hey like we're pals." And it's like oh wait but also don't announce where I live. Don't get mad at me...
Em Schulz: I'm like we're pals in secret. We're pals in secret.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I hope you don't turn on the podcast. Like turn against us and then like use your knowledge for evil.
Em Schulz: I know. I know. Umm, yeah. Anyway that was my Halloween. I'm sorry your kid's sick. We were like really grazed past that. Is she okay?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. She's... Blaise just texted me and said her fever's back. We thought she was better but it's now at 102.9. So we're like trying to trying to keep an eye on it. Umm...
Em Schulz: I know nothing about babies obviously I say that every time but I just wanna remind everyone before they ask why I asked such a stupid question. But...
Christine Schiefer: Go ahead.
Em Schulz: Is she... I'm sure... I already know she's talking some, is she talking entirely now? Fully fluent talking?
Christine Schiefer: Uh. She's like chattering a lot. She chatters a lot. She tell... She... We can understand her and she definitely can tell us like what is going on or what she needs or you know...
Em Schulz: Okay. Like can she communicate what hurts right now?
Christine Schiefer: We keep asking and she kind of points in her mouth. So part of me is like is it her throat? Like I'm not sure if it's her throat or her teeth. Umm...
Em Schulz: Maybe it's everything that poor thing.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it's both? Yeah exactly. I don't really know. Umm, but it's tough 'cause that means she's not going to school. So we're home with her all day watching Dino Ranch but you know...
Em Schulz: Whee.
Christine Schiefer: There's the worst things in the world so...
Em Schulz: Yeah. How big is she now? When she's standing next to you? Where does her head go?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it goes, wherever she wants to wipe her chocolaty mouth, on my pants. No, umm, I would say like...
Em Schulz: And you do the same to her so shut the fuck up. So...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah I started it. You're right. Umm, I don't know. Like my mid thigh. Maybe. I think.
Em Schulz: Ooh. She a big kid. That's not a baby anymore home slice.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. But I'm probably wrong. Yeah I know. She's... And she talks so, she apparently went around for trick or treat and like we just went to like two houses that we know. And, umm, she was like... She said, "Trick or treat thank you. I love you." And they were like, "We love you too." [laughter] She just likes reasons to talk to people. So she just.
Em Schulz: That's lovely.
Christine Schiefer: On and on and on and on. Yeah. She's... She's she's very fun but she is, umm, not feeling so well unfortunately.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Well.
Christine Schiefer: Well...
Em Schulz: Sorry to hear That.
Christine Schiefer: Hopefully your tickle in your throat doesn't expand to anything worse. Like hands...
Em Schulz: I'm forcing her out of the building. She is not allowed to stay so she's... She's got...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Good. Right. You had a talk with her. I forgot.
Em Schulz: She's got to fucking relax. Yeah. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay good good good.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well is that why you drink, your poor little babe?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that and my newfound, umm, prowess in the...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: The gay dating field, you know, even though I'm not acting on anything but, you know, it was...
Em Schulz: New found and...
Christine Schiefer: Short-lived. It was short-lived. It was exciting for a minute. And then we walked home and went straight to bed. So I was like, "Wow you know what? That was a win." Umm, it wasn't the most exciting experience of my life but I... I felt like I...
Em Schulz: Talk about about an ego boost.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah it was... It really was. And I wasn't even wearing a red lip, Blaise was. So I'm like, wow. You know tables have turned.
Em Schulz: I'm on fire. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway so yeah that's why I drink. Thank you for asking.
Em Schulz: That's a good reason to drink. I, umm, that's... I guess that's why I drink 'cause I was a little overwhelmed and now I'm ready to just not have anything go on in my brain.
Christine Schiefer: You're looking in a dark ass... Like you look like you're in a void. Like you've put yourself into a void to...
Em Schulz: I know. It's...
Christine Schiefer: Sensory deprivation, you know.
Em Schulz: It's because all the Halloweens... All our Halloween episodes are...
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: Over. But I... I thought about putting another backdrop on and I could just go back to my old school like Captain America Shield.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know what I'm gonna do yet. I haven't figured it out. But I do wanna do something that's...
Christine Schiefer: I'm in a state of transition as well which is why there's just like empty bags of chips and a broken ring light. And you know I'm in a transition state as well.
Em Schulz: Thank you. That makes me feel more seen because every time I come on here I even... This is where I sit for my therapy and every time she's like, "What does this mean?" It's like are you...
Christine Schiefer: It's like are you... Like blink twice if you need me to call somebody.
Em Schulz: It's like where's all your stuff? Are you just kind of... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Have you been robbed? Are you in a sensory de... Are you in a hunker bunker? Who knows?
Em Schulz: It does... I just feel bad I don't want my... I feel like my last backdrop was a little too much and so now I'm trying to like... But now this is like way too little. So anyway we'll shop it. We'll shop it.
Christine Schiefer: We'll find the me... We'll find the medium around.
Em Schulz: We'll find it. It's not today though.
Christine Schiefer: Not today.
Em Schulz: Umm, but I wanted to tell you... Oh last thing. I know. I'm so sorry. We're already like hitting 20 minutes. I wanted everybody who...
Christine Schiefer: Let's fucking make it 20. Let's commit. It's been 18...
Em Schulz: Speaking...
Christine Schiefer: Let's fucking commit.
Em Schulz: Speaking of my therapist, umm, who we love she's a delight.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, the lovely people who sent us our tarot decks as...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: We've discussed in the past. Umm, I mentioned it to my therapist and now part of my weekly work is that her and I pull a card together from our and that's why we drink tarot deck.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Are you kidding that...
Em Schulz: So I just wanted to... To thank everybody who was involved in creating that.
Christine Schiefer: It's so sweet.
Em Schulz: Because she also likes to find out what the card is because she likes to see the art. So, umm, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Does it... Is it just like a lemon every time and you're like, motherfucker.
Em Schulz: Even worse. The last time I pulled a card and it was someone, whoever drew this card, umm, whoever like literally illustrated the card. It was a picture of me in my clown uniform.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: And then I had to confess to my therapist that I have gone to clown college and that really derailed us. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: So she's basically just having like her own awakening here learning all these things.
Em Schulz: She just know... She knows that... She knows that if I pull enough of these cards it will probably pull a lot of context from my life.
Christine Schiefer: She's... I was gonna say she'll get to the bottom of it eventually once you hit all the cards. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It was... It happened to be on a day where we didn't have a lot to talk about. And then I mentioned the cards and pulled the one of me in clown college. And she was like, "Well I guess we've got something to talk about now." So...
Christine Schiefer: Alright we're locked and loaded baby. I can't wait till you just keep pulling cards of me. And she's like, "Okay that seems to be your problem. You need to get her away. Out of your life."
Em Schulz: She'd be like, "Umm, half of these cards are demons."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "I totally see why you've got sleep issues."
Christine Schiefer: Like, "No that's my coworker." "Oh okay." A lot is coming together here. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So anyway, umm, I wanted to thank everybody who was, umm, involved in the tarot deck and you are now somehow, umm, additionally part of my mental health journey.
Christine Schiefer: Healing Em's inner child.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Congratulations.
Em Schulz: Okay. The story I'm covering today Christine I think you'll like it. It feels like a classic And That's Why We Drink episode.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: I feel like, me as a person, I'm becoming the beginning of a website for a recipe because you know how like at the beginning...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Where you have to scroll to recipe otherwise you'd never ever get there.
Em Schulz: You can never... You can never just see the recipe. I have to like give it an intro and I'm noticing that in myself recently. But I also...
Christine Schiefer: We have to like learn what herbs you're growing in the garden before we actually get to your rosemary chicken recipe.
Em Schulz: Right. So if you would like to scroll down to the recipe or skip 30 seconds you can do that. But I feel like this is a classic And That's Why We Drink and we don't get a lot of these anymore. So, umm, I... I... I'm bringing it back. Old school with an old school penitentiary.
Christine Schiefer: Yes! I love these. Love these. Love these. Love these.
Em Schulz: Alright. This is the Old Idaho penitentiary.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Dun dun duuun!
Em Schulz: Thank you. And, umm, alright. So let's do it. It was... It's in Boise, Idaho. It was open for just over a hundred years. It was 101 years old when it closed.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: And over the years it housed over 13,000 inmates.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: And just over 200 of them were women.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: That's a twist.
Em Schulz: It opened in the 1870s yowza. It feels like forever ago. It was. Umm, and Idaho was just a territory at the time. It was not part of the union. It was very much...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's weird to think about. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Idaho wasn't part of the US. Umm, it was very much a lawless frontier land. You would've eaten that shit up.
Christine Schiefer: Love it. I was probably there.
Em Schulz: Okay. Right in Idaho. That sounds right. [laughter] So either, I don't know, there were different sources, but the two with the most likeliness is that they created a jail because either a prison was needed since it was such a lawless land or they were trying to join the union. And one of the requirements to be a state was to have a state prison.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh, okay. I was gonna ask with the lawless land why there was a prison.
Em Schulz: Right. He's, like...
Christine Schiefer: I'm getting it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, that's not very lawless of you. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That sounds pretty lawful. Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, one source says that the jail started as a one cell house, which, you know, I love a one room anyway.
Christine Schiefer: You sure do.
Em Schulz: But it was a one cell house and I feel like that's kind of on brand for a lawless town. It's like, if we need a prison, here's a room. How's that?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like when they used to just like toss like Billy the Kid in and like chain up his hands and be like, I'm gonna hang you later. Umm, but I'm gonna go get a beer across the street. It's like what kind of fucking...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Ruthless lawless places is? Aha.
Em Schulz: I'll put you in here, grab a drink and if you're gone, you're gone.
Christine Schiefer: Just like, don't go anywhere. [laughter] Okay?
Em Schulz: I'm trusting you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm trusting you with this key.
Em Schulz: So, the... The one source that said it was a one-cell-house then says it just built upon itself over time.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: It does feel like that's probably the story. It feels very on brand. And it was nicknamed the old pen and, uh, the original inmates that... I feel like this is kind of classic of a lot of jails, but the very original inmates had to help build the prison walls. And like, I just can't imagine having to construct the walls that like... And building behind the walls.
Christine Schiefer: Uh.
Em Schulz: Like just knowing that as it gets taller, you get more trapped. That's like its own mental torment.
Christine Schiefer: It's... It feels so chilling. I don't know. There's something like so extra sinister about that.
Em Schulz: You would think... I don't know. I feel like someone...
Christine Schiefer: You have a loose brick right?
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying.
Christine Schiefer: Every time I'm like, they must be keeping a close eye on these folks. 'Cause otherwise you'd think, why don't I just... Around these few bricks.
Em Schulz: Build a false wall.
Christine Schiefer: We'll just poke them out.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like Jenga and you know, uh, yeah. I... I wonder if they're being like, closely monitored. Uh, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: But also like, yeah, I wonder how that works because does that mean for every inmate there was like a sheriff holding them with chains and having to watch them?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like that... Think about literally watching dry... Paint dry, like that's... Watching somebody else build walls. Like you might as well join in.
Christine Schiefer: Like watching someone else watch paint dry is basically what you're doing. [laughter] Like, you're literally watching someone else stare at the wall.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, apparently they were involved in building the prisons walls by mining for rock at the nearby quarry. The whole place was built with sandstone. So... Umm, and before the prison expanded, it's said that there were no separate cells.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Umm, so that means men, women, and children were all locked up together.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: Yikes. The youngest person ever housed here was in 1912, a like 10 or 11-year-old kid.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no.
Em Schulz: Was in jail. And again, two different references tell me that he was either therefore stabbing his parent...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Or stabbing someone threatening his parent. So like it's...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Two very different stories.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, it doesn't matter which one it is, we're gonna put you in jail either way.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No winning in this case.
Em Schulz: Umm, so the jail opened in the 1870s, but by 1906, they clearly saw that the women needed to be separate from the men locked in a prison all day.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, so...
Christine Schiefer: Genius.
Em Schulz: Moment of silence for all the women before 1906, who had to be locked up with them.
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh.
Em Schulz: Umm, and it was just kind of like this ramshackle cell that it was kind of like out of, umm, immediate urgency that they put the women in a different area. But then a few years later in the 1920s, they actually officially built a women's block. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: The cells did not have plumbing, so you can see where we're going here.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: The... I guess there was plumbing as of the 1920s, but I don't know if that means toilets. Umm, I only saw pictures for like sinks and showers and it sounds like they were very, umm... It was the norm there to not have a toilet, but to have a communal honeypot AKA bucket...
Christine Schiefer: Uhhh.
Em Schulz: That was cleaned once a day. But...
Christine Schiefer: Why you got to call it a food item?
Em Schulz: I know. And like they... I guess the word honey has been a reference to poop for a long time, since we think like honey dippers are still like the people who clean the porta-potties.
Christine Schiefer: I've never heard that in my life.
Em Schulz: Oh, really?
Christine Schiefer: Never. What is it?
Em Schulz: A Honey dipper? I don't know if that's even the right word for it but...
Christine Schiefer: What is it?
Em Schulz: It's a person who cleans porta-potties.
Christine Schiefer: I had no idea. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: That's what I've always heard. That was, umm, one of the jobs that people always put when you'd play mash. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Of course. I can't believe I didn't know that. Like, that's so... Oh, I guess 'cause you're like scrubbing, like it looks like one of those honey dipper thingies.
Em Schulz: Like yeah. Putting the tube in there or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Scrubbing. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I actually don't know how they clean a porta-potty.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't either. Let's be honest. [laughter] I am looking up honey dipper. A worker who collects household sewage from sewage tanks. [laughter] Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. Hey, alright.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Uh, apparently get... Gets paid pretty damn well. Umm, so...
Em Schulz: You have to.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah. Give me that mash, uh, answer any day.
Em Schulz: If you do, umm, a job nobody wants, you get paid a lot, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah and you... It's got... Someone's got to do it.
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, honey pot, that was, uh, the bucket, the name for the bucket...
Christine Schiefer: Cute.
Em Schulz: That they would all use together and clean once a day. I wonder who pulled the short straw and was the honey dipper du jour.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: Each time. But the... So in the 1920s it sounds like there was its real first gen... General expansion. Umm, on top of building a woman's block and in... And putting in plumbing, uh, the prison also built a dungeon. Yay, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh jeez.
Em Schulz: In 1923, they built something called the cooler, which...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's so scary already. [laughter] The cooler, God dammit.
Em Schulz: Which I don't know why they called it that because it's... It was their version of like solitary confinement, but I don't know what the cool part was. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I... I wonder if it's, 'cause it's in Idaho and it's probably just fucking cold down there in a dungeon.
Em Schulz: Is it? I don't know anything about weather in the Midwest.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I mean it gets, I... If it helps, it was 40 degrees last night, uh, here in Kentucky. So I imagine...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I think Boise...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Gets pretty damn cold. Umm, it looks like it is currently...
Em Schulz: I know Midwest...
Christine Schiefer: 45 degrees Fahrenheit, uh, on November 1st, so.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: If that tells you anything. I don't know.
Em Schulz: You know what? Your guess is as good as mine. 'Cause I... It really, there was no context. It was just called the cooler and I expect it to be...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it's like...
Em Schulz: Like a torture device.
Christine Schiefer: What if it's like, maybe like a cooler, like, oh, you have to cool down, you have to get in the cooler.
Em Schulz: I love that. That would be their thinking is like, [laughter] timeout space.
Christine Schiefer: Why don't you chill out? We have just a thing, [laughter] it's called the cooler.
Em Schulz: I wonder if it was called the cooler because... I... Later we talk about the... The conditions of the jail and a lot of people said it was too cold in there.
Christine Schiefer: Well, okay.
Em Schulz: Excuse me. Excuse me.
Christine Schiefer: I think that answers your question my friend.
Em Schulz: That might be it. Umm, so in 1923 they built the cooler and it was for solitary confinement. It was apparently meant for two people max, but up to six people would be crammed in there. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Also it's not solitary confinement if there's six people. Okay guys, like that's not how solitary confinement works.
Em Schulz: So I am also confused by this because there's three different types of solitary confinement or there's three different names for three different areas where they put people away for solitary. But all of them are really small and all of them cram way too many people in there. So I don't know the difference between them except like they're just different versions of the same bad. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Because three years later they created something called Siberia...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, which was apparently even worse solitary confinement. And there were 12 cells that were just about the size of a twin mattress.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Umm, and they would cram a bunch of people in there. Umm, it was long enough for one person to like sleep, I guess, in it. And then, but they kept putting more people in there.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: There was no light, there was no water, there was no plumbing, there was no furniture in these cells. They would feed them essentially gruel three times a day. Umm, they had to use the... A communal honey... Honeypot and they were only left... They were only given, sorry, they were only given an hour a week outside of these cages to shower.
Christine Schiefer: That's disturbing.
Em Schulz: There's also something called the hole, which is the same concept where six to eight people would be shoved in a space where only one person should be. Umm, and it said multiple inmates were crammed into all these spaces. Sometimes kept up... Kept... Sometimes kept there for up to a year, but the average was 30 days.
Christine Schiefer: Up to a year.
Em Schulz: So you're kept in there for a month.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. Umm, by the way, you've been blurry for like five, 10 minutes. I just haven't... I didn't know whether to say anything and then it's just...
Em Schulz: Sorry, everybody.
Christine Schiefer: Not coming back. We can delete that if you want.
Em Schulz: If any... No, you're good. If anyone was wondering your glasses were just smudged. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Clean your damn glasses.
Em Schulz: That was really dirty and gross of you. So like you should...
Christine Schiefer: Gross.
Em Schulz: Clean them better.
Christine Schiefer: Sicko.
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm... But yeah, so they were just stuck in there for at least a month, sometimes up to a year. It was very horrible. Umm, a lot of people went insane in there. A lot of people died by suicide in there.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Umm and like...
Christine Schiefer: Imagine that. And then your... Your co bunk mate or whatever, dies by suicide...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And you're in there still for... Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's so dark.
Em Schulz: And also, I mean, like, think about the people who would, like... What if you put two violent inmates together?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they're going crazy. What if they... One of them killed each other? You know?
Christine Schiefer: I mean. I'm sure it happened.
Em Schulz: The conditions were very brutal, very inhumane, especially with ventilation, sanitation and overpopulation. Umm, the facility was built outta sandstone, like I said, which made extreme temperatures feel even worse, both hot and cold. So if it was just chilly outside, it's now freezing. If it was a little warm, it's in oven. The facility also... Their conditions were just super unbearable that inmates from the very beginning began protesting. The first protest was in 1935. It was in the dining hall, and it sounds a bit like a food fight. It was just dishes and tables going everywhere. Umm, and in 1952, there was another protest that turned into a violent riot, which created thousands of dollars of damage. In 1966, there was a peaceful strike by 300 inmates, which I didn't see coming.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. It's like a hippie era. They're like, let's try a new tactic.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Love, man.
Christine Schiefer: Love.
Em Schulz: In 1971 though, things shift gears and it's a very violent three hour riot. The prison is looted and in a lot of areas it's caught on fire.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: There's $25,000 worth of damage at the end.
Christine Schiefer: Jeez.
Em Schulz: And two inmates were shivved to death. Another, I'm so sorry, was sexually assaulted to death.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: I don't know how else to put it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: Umm, he was cornered in the shower by several people.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Oh God. Oh God.
Em Schulz: Umm, two years later was another incredibly violent riot. And, uh, it caused four times the amount of damage. So a $100,000 in damage, four buildings caught on fire, the dining hall and the chapel were completely burned to the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God!
Em Schulz: Umm, and that was the last riot, because that one is the one that, uh, caused the prison to close.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I was like, are they not getting the message? Like every time this happens, they're like, anyway, let's go back to how we were doing it before.
Em Schulz: I... They... I literally... The fact that they closed the place instead of just gave people some better conditions is crazy to me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're like, eh, fine. If you're not gonna get in Siberia again then...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: I guess we're done here.
Em Schulz: If you don't wanna share the poop bucket, then I guess I don't know what to do. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Shut the whole thing down. So, in general, about this place, there was, uh, house number five, cell house number five, or they would call it Five House. That was max security. It had the most dangerous inmates. It also had death row and an execution chamber.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: There were 10... Let me make sure I get these numbers right. Apparently at the time in Idaho, there were 11 people that were sentenced to death. 10 of them were killed here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow.
Em Schulz: Of the 10 who were killed here, six of them were killed in the garden, of which originally had gallows, and then they built like a beautiful little garden. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I was like the garden. What a nice euphemism for the gallows. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then the rest of them were killed in the chamber. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Is this like a... A gas chamber?
Em Schulz: Uh, noose. Hanging.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Okay. So they're still hanging them just in...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Inside now. Okay...
Em Schulz: They just built a space outside. They wanted the garden. So...
Christine Schiefer: They were like, umm, we need some time to commune with nature before we, you know.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: End your life for sure.
Em Schulz: Other deaths on the ground included murder, suicide, industrial accidents, old age illness, and in total, somewhere around 120 to 130 people died in this prison.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Some of these dangerous inmates that lived here were, I'll give you four examples. In 1905, there was a guy named Harry Orchard and he killed 18 people, including the governor of Idaho.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Big fucking...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Big crime.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I imagine that didn't go over quite well.
Em Schulz: He became one of the oldest inmates here and spent 45 years here before dying in prison.
Christine Schiefer: Jeez.
Em Schulz: In 1921, there was a woman named Lyda Southard, who poisoned her entire family...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Including her 4-year-old daughter for life insurance.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: Uh, then there was Douglas Van Vlack... Who Von Vlock. Who stalked and kidnapped his ex-wife. Umm, then while fleeing, he killed two cops and then shot and killed his ex-wife.
Christine Schiefer: Oy.
Em Schulz: He was captured. But on his execution day, he ran from the cops, ran through the prison, climbed up three tiers of the jail cells and jumped to his death.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And then the last one is in 1956, a guy named Raymond Snowden, AKA Idaho's Jack the Ripper.
Christine Schiefer: What? I gotta look into that.
Em Schulz: He, uh, was arrested because he was out at a bar and he got really aggressive very quickly with a woman. And when she rejected him, he pulled out a knife.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: And he stabbed her at least 30 times.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Cutting off her nipple...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And severing her spinal cord.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ohhhh! Em, you know, I hate that. Oh God. Oh God.
Em Schulz: He was hanged in the gallows, but the floor... When the trap door dropped, his neck didn't break. And he suffocated for 15 minutes until he died.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking hell dude. What is this guy's name? Edward Snowden? No. That's not...
Em Schulz: No. [laughter] Raymond Snowden.
Christine Schiefer: Right. I'm sorry. Not to be confused with... Uh, okay. Wow. I'm gonna have to... I just bookmarked that 'cause I'm gonna look into that later.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Umm, So those are just some of the people who were there. And like I said, in 1973, there was that last riot and it destroyed too much of the property. So the inmates ended up being relocated to other facilities, and the prison closed. It sat abandoned until it opened as a museum.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and that's where it is today. I wanted to end the history part of this on a fun note.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which is that in 1952 on Memorial Day, an inmate smuggled a kitten in his pocket...
Christine Schiefer: Ahhhh!
Em Schulz: Into the jail. Somehow the guards didn't notice or let it go, and the inmates all named this kitten, Dennis.
Christine Schiefer: Aww, Dennis, the kitty cat.
Em Schulz: And guards let the inmates keep him, and he brought morale to the prison, and all the inmates took care of him. And he served for 16 years.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna cry, you know that, you know I'm gonna cry. That is so sweet. Dennis the menace.
Em Schulz: Dennis the menace. It's so sweet.
Christine Schiefer: A little jailhouse cat.
Em Schulz: And when he passed, the inmates had a funeral for Dennis...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And they were allowed to make a plaque for him at his burial site.
Christine Schiefer: See, that's how you should be running... I mean, you shouldn't be running prison at all, but this is story for another day. But like, come on. I mean, that's much more effective. Right? To like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I mean, they got...
Christine Schiefer: Morale and...
Em Schulz: Nowadays they've got like, you know, therapy dogs and...
Christine Schiefer: Therapy and... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's really actually shown to be, I don't know, umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah, for rehabilitating.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Rehabilitating, yeah.
Em Schulz: To care and love for something and...
Christine Schiefer: You know. God forbid.
Em Schulz: For everyone in the community to enjoy the same thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah for sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah, so Dennis the kitty cat, and he was very loved, and that's all that matters. So, umm, so now I will tell you the ghosts. So this is one of America's most haunted prisons. Even when the prison was in use, inmates claim that the place was haunted. Yowza.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask about that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That always freaks me out when, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: It's really woo trippy.
Em Schulz: Uh, in the garden where the gallows originally were set up, there's apparently a male presence. Uh, people have seen a spirit there wearing prison... Like designated gardening clothes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And he's seen taking care of the plants.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's kind of nice, I guess [laughter]
Em Schulz: I like that he's not being fucking bothered. He's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Atleast he's outside.
Em Schulz: Here are my plants...
Christine Schiefer: In the afterlife. Like again, communing with nature. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Spirits are also most active in this area. Around 3:00 AM, people have seen moving cold spots. Even when it's a hot night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: People hear screams and laughter in the garden. Umm, and then, uh, people have also felt, uh, a... There was one reporter who came there, I guess, for the ghosts or for the history of this prison. And they got a really weird light in the garden. And pretty soon after that, all of a sudden this reporter started having a really bad headache, like someone was pressing on his head.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: So they took a picture of him and there's a weird orb hovering above his head at... At that moment.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, so like someone was like squeezing his head or putting their fingers in his eyes or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: That's... You know, I'm expecting when there's a ghost, like something to touch my back or grab my hair or something.
Christine Schiefer: Like a light graze or a breeze.
Em Schulz: Poking my eyes is fucking like a cheap shot. 'Cause like I'm... I can't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Hello. That's not fair.
Em Schulz: I can't see that coming. You know?
Christine Schiefer: I mean literally.
Em Schulz: Literally. Umm, but yeah, I feel like there's just certain things that even... Like, no matter if you're see-through or not, like no one's... No groin shots. You know like...
Christine Schiefer: It's like off limits. Yeah. Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like there should be like an unspoken rule here. I think. I agree with you.
Em Schulz: You can possess me, but don't touch my eyeball.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like Jesus. Fuck.
Christine Schiefer: You can haunt my nightmares and cling to my soul, but don't touch my eyeball.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So in Five House, which also had death row in it.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Allegedly this is the most haunted and the most active, which I think all of us saw coming.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: People can hear moaning in there, like moaning and groaning. People feel dread, like they're in danger. People get overwhelmingly sad, which makes a lot of sense. People hear someone gasping for air.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus.
Em Schulz: So they think that might be Raymond who...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Suffocated for 15 minutes.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: People see shadows by the noose.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Batteries will die. There's weird...
Christine Schiefer: There's still a noose? Or is it like...
Em Schulz: There's still a noose sitting there. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh. I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Which Zak Bagans loved playing with, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, no comment.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, there's weird lights in the area. One person actually was in the execution chamber, umm, and heard the door slam outside, and then every light on the second floor went out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, jeez. Oh, ew. Eugh.
Em Schulz: Hate that. In this area, people also hear someone kicking and whooshes of air as if something's falling.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no.
Em Schulz: People, umm, in general in the prison hear whispers, talking, screams, running, knocks, cell doors slam. Uh, someone running their hands on the bars, like hearing the echoing of the bars.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. Talk about like chilling sound.
Em Schulz: I know. And banging on pipes. Umm, people see flickering lights. They see apparitions, they see shadow figures walking out of cells. They see weird lights and pictures, orbs and pictures of a solid black figure. And sometimes people have looked into solitary confinement and seen a bla... Solid black figure sitting and then stand up and walk towards them.
Christine Schiefer: Eeww, no.
Em Schulz: People have felt, uh, like I said, unexplained sadness and dread. They have gotten shoved. People have felt fingers run through their hair. And, uh, another investigator actually got a picture of an orb as her battery drained to zero on all of her equipment, but caught an EVP right before the machine died. And the voice said, "I'm here."
Christine Schiefer: No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Thanks. We noticed. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You killed all of our equipment. Thanks.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, thanks a lot.
Em Schulz: Deactivated alarms go off on their own, breaker box switches get toggled with and doors will deadbolt themselves from the inside so nobody can get in when they try to open up the next day.
Christine Schiefer: That's cursed. That's horrible.
Em Schulz: I don't know what this means, but the ghost of Dennis the cat appears.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask.
Em Schulz: I don't even know what that means, but maybe there's little meows.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe you just hear like, purr purr purr purr.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, that's... That's Dennis.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's also like if something's rubbing up on you, you hope it's a cat.
Christine Schiefer: You just gotta tell yourself, oh, someone's pushing my eyeballs in. It must be the cat.
Em Schulz: Please. God, I hope it's a cat just...
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry about it.
Em Schulz: Playing bakery with my eyeballs.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle] It's just kneading playing. Yeah, exactly. Making bread in my eyes.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] So in block two, there's apparently a spirit of a large man named Big Louie.
Christine Schiefer: For sure.
Em Schulz: I love that.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: He likes to shove people. He also likes to bother mediums.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I like that. He just likes to bother them. He is like, "Oh, here they come." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: He's like, I'm not gonna cause any big problems, but I am gonna fuck with you a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Mmmh. Back on my bullshit. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Speaking of mediums, uh, the guy that died in that riot who like really violently died in that riot.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Apparently mediums can still see his residual energy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Replaying his death.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh. Oh no. Oh no. Oh no.
Em Schulz: I can't... I can't even...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: I can't even imagine being the medium and witnessing that. Oof.
Christine Schiefer: No. That's traumatic in and of itself, I would think.
Em Schulz: Umm, in Siberia people get touched, grabbed. They see apparitions. One medium said that an inmate still sits in his cell. Can you imagine after dying.
Christine Schiefer: That's the wor...
Em Schulz: You still feel trapped in jail?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 'Cause we always say the worst is if you are still stuck at work, but stuck in prison is arguably way, way worse than all of the above.
Em Schulz: Like... Did he just like feel safe there or does he think he like can't go anywhere and like it's really a life sentence.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Is he stuck? Is it a choice? Yeah. It's hard. It's... Or is it just like residual? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Umm, one of my favorite things that a medium talked about, uh, with this prison is that, uh, Harry Orchard, one of the not so great people that stayed here, and then a woman named Cora, who we think was Raymond Snowden's victim.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: The two of them didn't know each other as far as we know in life, but the two of them love talking to the mediums and showing around the prison.
Christine Schiefer: Great. So now they're buds is what we're saying.
Em Schulz: They're buds. I mean, they're not like... They're not related to each other, but I guess she found somebody else who's not as terrible as the guy who killed her.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And the two of them apparently always pop in and out with mediums and are very excited to like, share information about the jail to the mediums. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so this is not... Sorry. So this is not Raymond Snowden. It's the victim.
Em Schulz: The victim, and then another random guy I mentioned.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Harry Orchard guy. Okay.
Em Schulz: Harry Orchard was the guy who killed the governor.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay. He and Cora are... Are like...
Em Schulz: Tight apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay. Okay. I understand. I thought you meant like the two murderers.
Em Schulz: No, no. No.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Got it. Got it, got it.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah, two random non-related ghosts.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder why she's there?
Em Schulz: I don't know why either. But I mean maybe because he was... Like, her killer was so evil.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah she is like, let me take a look at where he ended up. I don't know.
Em Schulz: But mediums say that they're very eager to host whenever the mediums come in. Umm, Harry especially is the unofficial guide and he will pop in and out of investigations just to chime in whenever people have questions.
Christine Schiefer: Great. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm. It's like, dude, get away from me. [chuckle] Uh, investigators have spoken with another inmate named Jake who really likes the flashlight method.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Where if you unscrew it just ever so lightly, then he can play yes or no games. Harry also will infiltrate this game and say, sorry, Jake, I'm ready to talk again.
Christine Schiefer: Harry. You've had your... You've had your moment. Come on.
Em Schulz: Honestly, if you're... Maybe if he's still stuck in jail, he's just excited for any conversation.
Christine Schiefer: He is like, "Fun, field trip."
Em Schulz: The same team that heard from Harry and Jake also got a picture of a dark shadow... Uh, a dark shadow figure in the corner. And people including Zak, have gotten dark shadow figures with a hood over its head. Like in executioning.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: Speaking of Zak, let's do it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So this was one of his very first episodes. This was...
Christine Schiefer: I almost feel like I've seen it, but like he's probably done so many jails. It might not be the same one, but a part of me is like, that sounds familiar.
Em Schulz: Season one, episode eight.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So eighth episode ever. He was not peak Zak Bagans yet.
Christine Schiefer: No, not yet. Huh? He wasn't committed fully yet.
Em Schulz: Umm, he did do a few things.
Christine Schiefer: He hadn't evolved [chuckle] into his fullest form.
Em Schulz: I will say the main thing that happened in like Zak Bagans behavior that...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Was telling you it would only get worse from here, is that, umm, [chuckle] he goes up into the... The hills to get an aerial view of the prison before they investigate. And there are a lot of rattlesnakes out there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh go... Oh God.
Em Schulz: And he is fully panicked because he hates snakes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I didn't know that. I learn something about him everyday.
Em Schulz: He's terrified. Every step he takes, he freaks out and points to the ground and goes, "Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick. Look, look, look. Look. Look, look, look, look, look." And fully panics.
Christine Schiefer: Is there a snake in... When he does that or is it like...
Em Schulz: Oh no, there actually are rattlesnakes everywhere. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So he's actually seeing them. He is not just freaking out every time like a leaf falls or something?
Em Schulz: No, but that would've been funny. No. He is actually...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Fully panicked.
Christine Schiefer: He's seeing these snakes. That is scary. I'll give him that.
Em Schulz: And yet, for someone who's so scared, he sees three and after the third of, af... After three times of losing his mind.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: He decides that he's going to, uh, face his fears. And he grabs...
Christine Schiefer: No!
Em Schulz: A rattlesnake with his bare hands.
Christine Schiefer: No! What kind of moron? I mean, come on, you can... Come on.
Em Schulz: He then drops it out of fear and runs away. And then he says, "This is Indiana Jones."
Christine Schiefer: And Aaron gets killed.
Em Schulz: "Do you want to suck the venom out of me?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wait who is he talking to?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, maybe us, but also Nick.
Christine Schiefer: Me?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so confused.
Em Schulz: This is Indiana Jones.
Christine Schiefer: Zachary. Zachary.
Em Schulz: Do you want to suck the venom out of me?
Christine Schiefer: Zachary. This is not Indiana Jones. Also, stop touching the snakes. You fucking dummy.
Em Schulz: He grabbed it with both of his hands. And then...
Christine Schiefer: You can't say I'm so scared of snakes and then literally pick it up like that... It... That's bullshit.
Em Schulz: I don't know what he was trying to do there, but not what I would've done. That's for damn sure.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just shocked. Shocked.
Em Schulz: First of all, going uphill. I wouldn't have done that.
Christine Schiefer: First of all, we wouldn't even be there. Okay, let's be real.
Em Schulz: Whether or not a snake was there, I would've... If I heard, let's climb a mountain to get an aerial view, I'd be like, "We've got drones for that. Next."
Christine Schiefer: Oh bye. [chuckle] Right. Drones are there also. Umm, also the hill is the snake's house. I'm not going in the snake's house. They can have their house. I don't want it.
Em Schulz: That's why I don't touch oceans, because that's the fish's house.
Christine Schiefer: Fish house. That's right.
Em Schulz: And I hate fish. Why would I go there? Do you imagine if I'm like, I hate fish. I hate fish. And then I grab a fucking shark like, what?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And... And like bite it or something. You're like, oh, I hate fish. Here, let me pick it up and throw it at Aaron. Maybe that'll help.
Em Schulz: And then I say, "This is Indiana Jones."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Suck something out of me.
Christine Schiefer: By the way, after he ran away, which is the best part, he's like, waaah? Runs away. And then says, "This is Indiana... " It is like, okay, either you're gonna be badass or you're just gonna be the fucking dumbass.
Em Schulz: He made half the decision and then the rest of it kind of fell. But...
Christine Schiefer: Right. He was probably hoping the editors would cut out the part where you dropped it, you know? But they realize it is too good.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then the editors were like, I don't have to say...
Christine Schiefer: I think not.
Em Schulz: Do anything you say yet, we're only eight episodes in.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We don't know the power you hold. The stranglehold you'll have on the Travel Channel someday.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, umm, the only things they caught was a shadow was seen moving around Aaron, and then something grabbed Aaron.
Christine Schiefer: It was a snake. I'm telling you, now I'm just convinced Aaron's gonna get bit by one of these fucking snakes. It'd just be so po... Poetic.
Em Schulz: Well, umm, here's a super fucked up thing. Of course... Of course Zak put Aaron in the shower where that guy was violently killed sexually.
Christine Schiefer: I mean... Okay.
Em Schulz: Not tasteful, is that what you were gonna say? Hmm, me too.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think I was gonna say that, but in a not tasteful way. So let's just say not tasteful.
Em Schulz: Right. Not tasteful. Uh, he said, "Oh, that sounds terrible. Guess where I wanna put Aaron now?" And then...
Christine Schiefer: Fucking hell.
Em Schulz: He literally locked him inside and then left.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So, umm, there was a dark mist near Zak's arm, uh, as he felt something touch him. And then later there was evidence, like picture evidence that there was something there. There was a convincing shadow figure they got on camera. But other than that they really, really didn't catch too much. The snake thing was obviously the most incredible.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They had to keep it in. There really wasn't enough content.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So last thing I'm gonna say is like I said, 1973, the riot made the pri... The prison closed down and they... It became a museum. It is now on the National Register of Historic Places. They offer several tours and, well, several tours. They do guided and non guided.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Guided and self-guided tours. They also have a gift shop. You know, I love a gift shop.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And, Christine I have to end on this.
Christine Schiefer: What? Tell me.
Em Schulz: The museum now does a lot of, umm, I guess fundraisers, charities, events, umm, I assume to get some sort of money to help preserve the the prison. They host art shows. They do film competitions. And a personal favorite for you, me and everyone listening, is that they host their annual Dennis the Cat Day.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Where it's always celebrated the week of May 26th, which was Dennis's birthday.
Christine Schiefer: His birthday.
Em Schulz: And he would've turned 71 this year. Happy purrthday.
Christine Schiefer: My sweet senior purr buddy.
Em Schulz: His birthday party always has every year food trucks, drinks...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Pet vendors, limited Dennis the cat merch, a history presentation on him and a prison pause, scavenger hunt.
Christine Schiefer: Stop!
Em Schulz: And to attend you must donate pet food, which goes to the Humane Society and Boise's No Kill Adoption Center.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. It's perfect. I just got goosecam. I... I'm getting goosecam again. That is the sweetest thing I ever heard. Umm, I'm googling that. Can we go in May?
Em Schulz: Yes. If someone does actually work at this penitentiary.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, please.
Em Schulz: If you wanted to send us Dennis the cat merch, I would...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, please.
Em Schulz: Lose my fucking brain.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, please. I wanna go so bad. Umm, wow!
Em Schulz: Umm, I hope they sing him Happy birthday every year.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what a fun birthday party.
Em Schulz: And they... And they bring like... His... His plaque is still there, where he's buried, so people will go over there and leave him treats and flowers.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. I like to think that some of the... Uh, you know, umm, inmates come for the party, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And just like cheers to to Dennis.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I hope Dennis comes.
Christine Schiefer: I... He's probably like, umm, I'm really busy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I actually have a lot of friends in the afterlife.
Em Schulz: He's like 71 years. I still don't have a concept of a birthday. So this makes no sense. And he would just leave.
Christine Schiefer: A what?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He would probably only give a shit about the random bag in the storage room. So...
Christine Schiefer: The... The treats and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. The bag and... Oh buddy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, that is the Old Ohio State Penitentiary.
Christine Schiefer: I thought it was Idaho. I think.
Em Schulz: What did I say?
Christine Schiefer: Ohio. Ohio. I think that's a different one.
Em Schulz: Shit, I was looking at you and said Ohio.
Christine Schiefer: That happens a lot. That happens...
Em Schulz: Idaho State Penitentiary.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, Em, oh my God, I can't get over Den... First of all, I can't get over the fact that there was still a penitentiary you haven't covered.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so that's thrilling.
Em Schulz: And uh, wow. Umm, Dennis just really stole and my heart. I'm not gonna lie.
Em Schulz: And little Dennis with his... Paws and his meows.
Christine Schiefer: His little party. Oh, gosh. I can't believe that.
Em Schulz: Anyway, if you ever end up in Idaho for some reason, I hope it's May 26th. And I hope you spend the whole day...
Christine Schiefer: I sure should do it.
Em Schulz: In a prison.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm ready. I'm like, are there flights to Boise, Idaho? I don't know. Maybe I drive there.
Em Schulz: Oh, I just want a Dennis the cat shirt so bad.
Christine Schiefer: I wanna see how far Cincinnati to Boise is. Let's see. Umm, Oh, okay. It's only 28 hours. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, hey, great. Okay. That doesn't sound that bad.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. That's way... You know, I'm not good at geography. I did not know where Idaho was. I am a piece of shit. I'm looking it at like, huh. That is not what I expected. [laughter] I thought it was closer to like the Dakotas. Uh...
Em Schulz: I don't... Honestly couldn't tell you. I know...
Christine Schiefer: It's literally right by Oregon. Like...
Em Schulz: Anyone listening who is not from the US, you're right. The education system has...
Christine Schiefer: You're right. I'm proving it.
Em Schulz: Drastically failed us.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm proving it right now. Umm, if you needed proof. Yikes. Embarrassing.
Em Schulz: Anyway, there you have it.
Christine Schiefer: You nailed it. Good job. Good job. Good job. Umm, well, I today have a story that I don't know if you'll... I mean you won't like it, obviously, but I also don't know 'cause you know, it's a bummer. Haha. But, uh, I also wonder if I... I feel like I... I was trying to decide whether or not you liked the unsolved stories, but I think you said no, right? You're not into the unsolved stories 'cause it doesn't provide any closure or answers. Is that right?
Em Schulz: It's... It's one of those mixed bags where like, I can appreciate that I can theorize and not feel like I'm pointing fingers at anyone and...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right. It's not a...
Em Schulz: Or I can... I can point fingers at everyone and... And there's no way to know. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right. Yes. And I also feel like part of it is the allure of the mystery, right? Like, you're like, I want someone to solve this. I wanna get answers. But then there's also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I just get angry.
Em Schulz: A frustration. Yeah. Of like, well, now what? You know. Umm, and I... I do like to cover them for that story as well, just because, uh, I don't know, in case on the off chance somebody happens to have some relevant information, like it's a call to submit what, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: See something, say something. So for what it's worth, I'm covering a missing person today.
Em Schulz: I really had to hide myself from going, yay! Because I heard it, I heard it. But I'm exp...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. But it's not good. Uh...
Em Schulz: Yay to the mystery that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Allows me to critically think and try to come up with the answer that nobody's figured out yet.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And let's...
Em Schulz: Like, that's the other thing about mysteries. Like, I always... It's like there's gotta be a little pinch of narcissism to me where I'm like, I'll crack it. Like nobody else could do it.
Christine Schiefer: I mean yeah. It's human nature, right? It's like, oh, I'll solve the puzzle. And it's like, oh, right. Nobody else has been able to, but I'll do it. Sure thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm, no, I think that's definitely just human nature. But I basically saw this story on an episode of Disappeared, umm, on Discovery Plus, uh, sickeningly, one of my comfort shows. And, uh...
Em Schulz: Mine is To Catch a Predator. Don't worry.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, there you go. See, listen, we all have our thing. Umm, and this is the disappearance of Kimberly Avila. Avila, Avila, I'm pretty sure it's Avila. So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This was an episode of Disappeared. I literally messaged our researcher Saoirse immediately and was like, can we just put this on the docket? And.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm...
Christine Schiefer: Saoirse she watched the episode too and was like, "Uh, I'm doing the notes now." And I was like, "Okay. Like let's go. Let's... Let's fucking nail this. Let's solve it."
Em Schulz: Let's solve it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord. Umm, and I wanna point out as well, because this is a story of a, uh, a trans woman
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: But, uh, her, her family of... So we're gonna use she/her pronouns, but her family often uses, uh, interchanges between he/him and she/her because, uh, she identified as gender fluid and said she was completely happy with, uh...
Em Schulz: With anything?
Christine Schiefer: She/her, they/them, he/his. So it was sort of like, some people have given the family shit for using different pronouns, but like that's how she was comfortable at home.
Em Schulz: Sure. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so we are gonna use she/her pronouns obviously, 'cause we are not [laughter] in that place where we can just decide.
Em Schulz: Test the waters [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Not our place. So that is just a little like heads up. So if you do go watch the episode after this, anybody, umm, just, you know, then you... You can be aware that like she was very... She was perfectly comfortable with, umm, the kind of interchangeable pronouns. So...
Em Schulz: Sure. She's giving JVN energy.
Christine Schiefer: She's giving JVN. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So we are going to Brownsville, Texas, and this is a city on the border of Mexico. It's roughly about a population of 190,000 people or so. And, uh, according to a news anchor in the Rio Grande Valley, or is it Rio? Well, it's Rio Grande in... In US. I imagine. It's not Rio...
Em Schulz: Rio Grande?
Christine Schiefer: Rio Grande. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds even more American. Somehow. Rio Grande. Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah 'cause only half of it feel... Only half of it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So Derek Garcia, he's a news anchor down there, umm, and he was kind of a talking head in this episode, and he believes that because the town has such a strong, uh, root in Catholic culture, especially being so close to Mexico, umm, this can make it pretty difficult, uh, for people in the queer community because obviously Catholicism has some pretty conservative values.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so according to the human rights campaign, Texas itself, this is probably not surprising. I might not know where Idaho is, but I do know that Texas is considered a high risk state for, uh, LGBT community members, uh, because of hate crimes. The sheer volume of anti LGBTQ+ bills that move through here every year, umm, legislation, etcetera. You know, it's not really news to us. Uh, so finding equal housing and employment opportunities can be a huge, uh, hurdle for people, especially transgender people in rural areas of Texas.
Christine Schiefer: So people also, as you know, many of us, or at least, you know, many of us can be sympathetic to, I'm sure some of our audience has also experienced this, just this fear of being rejected by their family members for coming out. Umm, and many are rejected by their family members for coming out. But, you know, for what it's worth, that was not the case for Kimberly. She was deeply loved and cherished by her entire family, which I feel like is a story we don't often find in these crime cases either. Do you know what I mean? Like... A lot of these...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's just... It's just... I feel like there's a, umm, a lot of people we talk about are isolated in some way and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes, yes. And it's...
Em Schulz: But this time around they at least had... She at least had a lot of things going for her with the...
Christine Schiefer: A hundred percent.
Em Schulz: The unconditional support.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No, and... And that's why I think this was such a striking story. Like, it... It turned kind of a lot of these stereotypes on their head... On its head... On their head. Umm, and so...
Em Schulz: On her head?
Christine Schiefer: On her head. [laughter] Yeah. Who's to say? Right? No. Umm, and so yeah, that's kind of what struck me about this. Uh, her family just adored her.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And at a young age, they noticed, you know, she liked to do traditionally more girly things like playing with dolls, dressing up in her mom's clothes, and before coming out as trans, her family said, you know, they thought she was gay, which is, I think often like, right. Like a transitional thing. Umm, trying to find yourself.
Em Schulz: It's part of the pipeline. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's the pipeline, trying to find your identity. Umm, and so they thought she was gay and they loved and accepted that and said like, they would not have changed a single thing about her. It wasn't even like a question in their minds.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, which is great, 'cause I imagine that made it safer for her, uh, made it feel safer for her to, you know, continue that journey.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So Kimberly was extremely close with her sister Ivon, and their youngest brother. Now, here's where I'm getting another hole. So his name is N-O-E, and I have been watching like a million YouTube videos trying to find the right pronunciation. I've watched some of the weirdest, most random vloggers and, uh, Mariachi bands on YouTube trying to figure out how to pronounce this name. And so of course I've gotten three different pronunciations, but the one I'm gonna go with is Noe, like N-O-E, Noe, Noe. Noe.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, because that seems to be the most commonly accepted pronunciation. Umm, some people just said, "No", and I don't think...
Em Schulz: I would've... I would've thought, No.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe No. Or Noah, Noe. Some people said -. Umm, and so I think it's just kind of one of those like lost in translation type things where they probably get used to hearing all sorts of different pronunciations.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I'm gonna say Noe, as that seems to be the... The most commonly used pronunciation. I apologize if I am butchering anybody else's name out there. Uh, but Noe, the brother, uh, Kimberly's younger brother, basically said he never imagined wanting anything else for Kimberly except for her to feel like herself, uh, and feel like as at home with herself as possible.
Em Schulz: It's so sweet.
Christine Schiefer: And so when she grew up, she began dressing in, you know, more feminine outfits to go out on the weekends. She would wear wigs and makeup to tie her looks together. She loved putting on makeup. And her sister Ivon said that's what made her happy. So we accepted it, which damn, uh, you know, I wish... I wish more of the world were... Worked that way.
Em Schulz: I know. This is the, uh, the like picket fence family...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: I wish everyone like would look to for wholesome values.
Christine Schiefer: Agreed, a 100%. And the fact that it's in like rural Texas is a wild thing to me, but also really a special thing. I feel like that's gotta be, I don't know, an, uh...
Em Schulz: I just wanna know their story. Like, how did you get there?
Christine Schiefer: I do too.
Em Schulz: How did you get to that point?
Christine Schiefer: How did you all get so accepting? You know? Umm, so her sister, Ivon, you know, said that's what made her happy. So we accepted it. And according to Ivon, Kimberly identified as gender fluid, like I mentioned earlier. Umm, and Kimberly had once explained it to her sister as, "I'm one person here and then the other when I'm out there". So just kind of, you know, going back and forth between those identities. And Noe remembers Kimberly as an amazing brother to him at home, and amazing sister to everyone she met. And when she was born, she had actually been named after her father Ramiro. And so she was Ramiro Junior. And so when she came out and chose her name Kimberly, she still identified with her birth name and told her sister, "During the week, I'm Junior on the weekends, I'm Kimberly". So was...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which I just love how like, they just let her find a right balance of all this, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I think that's pretty special. So Noe said their father Ramiro was an old school macho type, uh, who supported Kimberly with the rest of the family, despite being like that traditional patriarchal kind of dude, which I also find just like totally incredible. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Especially because he's like so super masculine...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You would think that he would have some sort of additional problem to it because he's so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You think it would be at least a... A struggle or like an uphill battle or a learning curve or something.
Em Schulz: Redefining masculinity...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And femininity and, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Especially with the name, you know, being... And I think that's a testament to the fact that she chose, uh, to keep her birth name. Umm, it's also probably such a testament to like... Considering she was named after her father. Like I think that speaks for itself too.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, her father, Ramiro Senior, told interviewers, "He is my son and one never turns his back on his son. One has to take care of his children until God, our Lord takes us. I was never embarrassed of him being that way." So with so much love and support, you know, it's easy to understand why people who knew Kimberly described her as a bubbly, happy, just like vivacious person. She loved music, she loved putting on makeup, she loved going out dancing whenever she got the chance, uh, she had one friend named Samantha Rose Montemayor Morales, who's a community leader and activist in the area, and she actually works with trans-led organizations. And when she met Kimberly at a club and noticed just how like upbeat and happy she was, uh, she said Kimberly was just, described herself as being honored to have such a loving family and like have such a strong support system behind her. Which I imagine being like a community activist and like meeting someone... That must be so refreshing to like meet someone in the trans community who's like, "I have like the best life ever." You know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm sure that's not...
Em Schulz: You never get to hear that. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like that's not the norm for, you know, reasons we all know. Umm, so I just think that's... I don't know. I don't know. I just, uh, that just struck me. So Kimberly of course didn't have it perfect because just 'cause you have a family who's supportive does not mean everyone around you in rural Texas is supportive of you...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Unfortunately, I... I wonder if she got some sort of like false impression of the world or something. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's... It's almost hard to know if... If that had an influence on the way she perceived, you know...
Em Schulz: Everybody else.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I wonder... I wonder how that... How that works. I mean, she definitely faced plenty of bullying growing up. Umm, whether that was because people thought she was gay, whether that was because... You know...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: For whatever reason there was, uh, bullying growing up... As she grew up. Umm, and then discrimination in public as well. And her brother would sometimes witness this, uh, when they were out together. And he said Kimberly was very blunt and very open and was not afraid to be herself and like face up to the close-minded people in town. Especially because she...
Em Schulz: Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Which is so, so great. Umm, but also takes a lot of guts. And I... You know, I think it's just having that support system behind her, she felt safe enough to, you know, confront people who were being discriminatory. So now we fast forward to May 12th, 2017, and on this evening, Kimberly's extended family is visiting from Mexico and they're all spending the evening together. And it is a Friday night and Kimberly decides she wants to go out. So late that night, she's getting dressed up, dolled up as usual, and she asked Ivon for a ride downtown to go clubbing. So Ivon was worried because it was already 2:30 AM, uh, it was now, you know, early Saturday morning. And she was like, "Can't you just go out tomorrow instead? Like, it's already really late. I don't wanna drop you off downtown.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And you know, wonder when you get home." And uh, Ivon remembers that her sister could be sassy sometimes, and Kimberly just kind of turned to her and said, "Look at me. I didn't get ready like this to stay home." [laughter] Like, yeah girl, I can't argue with that. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's a great argument. It's like, umm...
Christine Schiefer: It's like the only good argument.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Take... Take one, look in this direction and tell me if I look like someone who's about to go to sleep. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Do you think I put false eyelashes on for bed? Yeah. No. Yeah, it's not happening.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she put on a couple of falsies, so sue her.
Christine Schiefer: So sue her! Come on. Xiinon energy all the way is what I have to say.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So Ivon was like, "Fine, you know what? You make a fair point, I guess." Uh, so she tell tells her family, you know, we're going to head out, I'm dropping, uh, dropping Kimberly off downtown. And they got in the car, Kimberly's all jazzed up, like listening to pop music. They're dancing in the car. But when... It's sort of like, as Ivon is approaching the bars downtown with, umm, Kimberly in the passenger seat, she starts to get this just bad feeling...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which always gives me chills when I hear that because it makes you wonder like, is that your intuition or is that like something paranormal? Like is there something subconsciously that's like nagging at you, you know? Or do you just have some sort of...
Em Schulz: Looks like your... Your book that you're always promoting?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like... It's like, is there some sort of subconscious situational awareness you're having that you aren't even...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah... That your body's trying to tell you, but like you're not consciously picking up on.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's what I wonder. And so I think either way, that's such a powerful tool and like I know...
Em Schulz: The Gift of Fear.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not... Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. Umm, thank you. And I'm not... Obviously, I'm not blaming Ivon by any means, but I'm just saying like, I... Stories like this always get me because I think, you know, how many times do we ignore that feeling...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And say, oh, come on, I'm just being dramatic, or I'm just overthinking it. Umm, and so it's just a good reminder, you know? So she said, she just had a bad feeling. And as she's dropping her off, she actually circled the block three times trying to convince Kimberly to please just come home and not go out that night.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And either way, you know, nothing Ivon could do. Uh, Kimberly insisted on going out and she, umm, saw a bunch of people out outside the bars and she was like, look, I'm safe. It's fine. You know, there's plenty of people out here. I'm not alone. So she insisted and Ivon dropped her off and went home and Kimberly told her, "I'll be back later this morning." Umm, and so Ivon stayed up and waited, but of course, as we...
Em Schulz: Hmm, 'cause she knew something was up.
Christine Schiefer: She just felt weird, like she couldn't fall asleep. And of course we know, umm, with hindsight, uh, that Kimberly did not come home that morning or at any other point in time. So brother Noe woke up and his mom told him that nobody knew where Kimberly was. And Kimberly did have a cell phone, but it wasn't connected to data. Like it wasn't connected to a phone line. Umm, she just used it mostly to take photos and, you know, just have on hand. And so there was no way of reaching out to her, which especially in 2017, like that became a huge hurdle also for law enforcement.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, we can't track her. We don't have her like latest activity on her phone. It's just... You know, pulls a huge puzzle piece outta the equation. She'd always said... She'd always come home when she said she was gonna come home. Like she wasn't the type to, you know, be out and come home two days later and say, "Oh, sorry, I never touched base." Like that just was not her nature. So even though she didn't have a phone, the fact that she was nowhere to be found was extremely concerning. Her mom called Ivon every hour asking, you know, is Kimberly there? Have you found her? Is she home yet? And Ivon just had to say no, I've found no sign of her whatsoever. And so they know already that something is terribly wrong. And I imagine with Ivon's like gut feeling the night before, this has got to be just like a sucker punch, like shit, you know... I knew something was wrong.
Em Schulz: I just can't imagine her... Like, her guilt of like...
Christine Schiefer: I know that feeling.
Em Schulz: Oh, I should've, I should've. I should've.
Christine Schiefer: Because like again, like what are you gonna do? Right? You can't like forcibly restrain her from going out if she wants to go out.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She's an adult, you know. So yeah, I imagine that's probably a very push and pull type of feeling. Umm, so Ivon's, you know, going around, she's calling the hospitals in the area wondering if like maybe she ended up at a hospital and hasn't been able to reach out. No luck. Nobody's seen her. And so as she's kind of doing this like canvassing, she notices a police officer stop nearby. And so she just goes straight up to this guy and she says, "You know, my sister Kimberly is missing. I can't find her anywhere." And another fucking plot twist in this story, police say we have to file a missing person's report right now.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. It's fucking, didn't see that coming.
Christine Schiefer: Much like again, it's totally a plot twist. Like that never happens. I'm like...
Em Schulz: What... What section of Texas is this? Oh, my God... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say like, where are we and should we all just move there? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Are we in Twilight Zone, comma Texas? Like what? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: TZTX.
Em Schulz: Everyone is unconditionally supported, and the police are on it.
Christine Schiefer: TZTX that would be, by the way, which is just the best airport, airport code ever.
Em Schulz: TZTX. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, anyway, so yeah, it, it's very shocking. Umm, just be... Only because like we have covered so many of these stories where it's like, you know, as an adult who's missing, it's very hard to get that missing person's report filed in a lot of cases, uh, because, you know, a person can leave if they want to of their own volition. But this case was different and the officer just said, "You know what? We gotta... We gotta get on this right away." So, you know, for what it's worth, thank God for that. Umm, and you know, this is another statistic, like the opposite of a fun fact, as we always do. Latina trans women, umm, are disproportionately at high risk of suffering violent crimes. Umm, not only compared to cis women, which is obvious, but also compared to white trans women.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. You know, there's that racial component, uh, and that ethnicity component that definitely puts her in a higher risk category. And, you know, basically I'm gonna outline all the reasons that this is such a plot twist to us, like why it seems like such a plot twist. And that's because only about half of these kind of crimes are reported because survivors are often ignored by the police, umm, and or... And or experience even more violence, uh, sometimes even at the hands of police. And with that being said, you can understand why this was so reassuring to the family that Brownsville authorities like immediately took the report seriously.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And because of that, the family was optimistic that they would find her pretty quickly. And, uh, the officer told Ivon, you know, you can meet with a detective on Monday, and in the meantime you can do your own searching. And so the entire Avila family went downtown on foot to search for any signs of Kimberly. They went so far as to look in trash cans to see if maybe like something from her purse had been dumped out, or if... If any sort of sign that she had been on a certain street. Uh, they looked everywhere and they spent hours searching every street, every alley. But they found, no... Not a single sign of Kimberly.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So the family went home and they just waited to meet the detective 'cause it really was all that they could do. They also began reaching out to news stations, trying to get Kimberly's face and information out to the public and the local media began airing the story, trying to, you know, get as many tips as possible.
Em Schulz: Yeah, wow.
Christine Schiefer: Monday rolls around and Detective Melissa Gonzalez tells the Avila family that she is on the case and would update them with any information as it comes in. And the department immediately sets up a hotline for tips and announces a $1000 reward for information that would lead to Kimberly. And what we know is that she was last seen near a bridge that crossed the border to Mexico. So...
Em Schulz: Oh shit! Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Immediate red flags, right? Like that's... If she's missing...
Em Schulz: That's not good.
Christine Schiefer: And she was right by the border. That's an alarming, uh, thought that would complicate things.
Em Schulz: A lot.
Christine Schiefer: A lot, [chuckle] exactly. And the buildings near that bridge to add to the fear, uh, for the family, is that the buildings near the bridge were mostly abandoned. Umm, and so...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: This is like already a very, uh, desolate area.
Em Schulz: Oh my God! Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So on top of the desolation, of course, because there's not much going on, there are almost no streetlights, umm, very dark. And if she had been abducted there, you know, there might not be a single person who witnessed this happen.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they start watching video footage, uh, at the international crossings from the night Kimberly went missing to see if she had crossed into Mexico, but they could not find any video footage of her.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Because Kimberly's phone was disconnected, of course, investigators couldn't follow like, the normal leads of, you know, who was she calling or who was she texting?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Or who was she Snapchatting. Umm, there was just no way to specify her last known location. And, you know, just based on that, it was like dead ends everywhere that they looked. Then investigators got a tip that Kimberly was involved in sex work downtown. And this is another like, relatively common thing, umm, in these types of situations. Trans women often find more stable income in sex work than they can elsewhere, especially if they face like the kind of uphill battle and prejudice that they do in like a traditional... More traditional workspace. So according to the National Library of Medicine, because transgender people face discrimination on a systemic, institutional and interpersonal level, many transgender women view the sex work industry as their only viable career opportunity or option.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And Ivon actually said, she didn't deny that Kimberly was a sex worker. She's like, she wasn't totally, you know, shaken or shocked by this information, but she also said that was a part of Kimberly's life that she didn't know much about.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like, she didn't... She really didn't have any details to help further the investigation. But essentially police now knew that this makes Kimberly's case that much more high risk.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Because sex, you know... You're sex worker on top of all this other discrimination that already puts you in a scary place. Now you're...
Em Schulz: And somehow... And somehow more complicated too now because it sounds like, oh, well we don't know the whole picture then.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, that's exactly true. You're right. It's like she has this huge supportive family is looking for, but if they don't know all the details exactly, of like what she might've been doing that night or who she was meeting...
Em Schulz: Yeah, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Because that was like a part of her life, she kept separate.
Em Schulz: Now it makes more sense why she might've been more like aggressively trying...
Christine Schiefer: Insisting.
Em Schulz: To leave you at the bar because maybe she had an appointment.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And now like, who's that guy or whoever that could've...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: You know, who was planning on seeing her.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly it.
Em Schulz: Could he... They have hurt her, yeah?
Christine Schiefer: And it's like all these, like what ifs, what if we had asked, you know, who she's meeting, what if we had asked like where she was going, which bar, you know. And so imagine that's really frustrating as the family to like have that big gap, like that big question mark. Umm, but of course, uh, [chuckle] just like to add worse to worse, umm, she's now exposed to more dangerous situations.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That could have ended in more violent ways. So police attempted to question other sex workers in Brownsville for leads, but they had no luck. I mean, I imagine, you know, we've all seen SVU.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Where the cops try to talk to those sex workers.
Em Schulz: Yeah... And they are like, "I'm not saying shit."
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "Get away from me."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, right. You know, and so generally, uh, we can all understand why. Uh, sex workers don't often seek assistance from authorities because their work is criminalized. And so, uh, they're often dismissed if they try to make a report. I mean, we've seen stories where sex workers are raped, attempted murder even, and they go to the police and police threaten to arrest them.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For... For participating in sex work. So it's like a lose lose. Right? Uh, so, you know, you can imagine that this was not the most fruitful of searches for police, like inter... In interviewing other sex workers.
Em Schulz: Makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And so at the same time as Kimberly's disappearance, Brownsville Police had actually recently arrested several sex workers downtown. So now there's already this like...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Big built in tension and like, do we think sex workers are gonna talk to police now?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Hell no. Right? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Especially not now.
Christine Schiefer: They know the risk here. Yeah. And so this tension is like already at a high. So they just did not really get anywhere with this. No one was willing to speak to police in case they got in trouble arrested, or even ended up in Kimberly's situation, which they didn't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: 'Cause also, like we've... I mean, I've seen SVU and a lot of episodes are like, the cop is the one who was going...
Christine Schiefer: Mmh. And how do you trust that person if... If... Exactly.
Em Schulz: Like, not only are they... Could they arrest you, but the cop could be the one that's, you know, doing stuff to sex workers.
Christine Schiefer: He could be a perpetrator. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And getting away with it because no one's gonna talk to sex workers.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And like, who's gonna... Who are they gonna believe? Right. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so I can understand completely their... Their refusal to participate in this. Umm, but thankfully, you know, the Avila's kind of know that. And so they were doing their own kind of investigating on the side, their own work. They were putting up posters every single day after she went missing. Umm, and the poster featured Kimberly in two photos. One where she wore a more masculine style as Junior and the other, the more feminine Kimberly identity. And that way, you know, depending on how she was presenting, umm, that somebody might be able to recognize her either way.
Em Schulz: I love that they were doing their own work.
Christine Schiefer: I know...
Em Schulz: They were like, you know what...
Christine Schiefer: On the ground.
Em Schulz: I don't know totally if I can trust the cops. So here's what we're gonna do.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're like, we... You can... Okay. Cops, you go talk to the sex workers. But like, good luck with that.
Em Schulz: We're... [laughter] But then so are we. But then so are we.
Christine Schiefer: But like, then so are we. Yeah, exactly. So they... You know... They... They've been around the block. They know how this works. So they're putting up their own posters, they're interviewing people on their own. Umm, unfortunately they're already facing like extreme just assholery from people. The posters were getting torn down, graffitied, burned, and only her posters.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: Not the other ones. Okay. So, you know, it was unclear whether this was involved with... Like, had anything to do with Kimberly's actual disappearance or if these are just like discriminatory assholes, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It could... Could be both, either. Umm, but people even followed Ivon and her family, uh, in their cars as they were putting up posters and like, watch them harass them.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Just... Just dicks. Right? Like, and it... It's unclear like if they even knew...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: What had happened to Kimberly, like maybe they were just, like...
Em Schulz: Or they just thought it was hilarious to like...
Christine Schiefer: Like it was a funny joke. Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ha ha ha ha ha. So police actually did end up following up with one person who was caught on camera drawing on the posters.
Em Schulz: Ooh!
Christine Schiefer: But... Yeah. But it was just a dead end, some asshole, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Who got in trouble for that. But that's it. It wasn't... He didn't have any real leads, you know? So of course the case essentially went cold. There were no new leads or tips or signs of Kimberly. It was like she had just poof, you know, vanished into thin air.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the Avila's began to lose faith that this investigation was going anywhere, that police were getting any headway on this. And it seemed like they were kind of letting Kimberly and her case, fade away, as in the police. So that they could, you know, move on to other... Other things. And Noe said, I want to think that maybe they're just incapable and they can't say it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, honestly...
Christine Schiefer: That's his... That was his response. He's like, "I think that's kind of where my head's at." [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's a good place for your head to be. Maybe. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure.
Em Schulz: Could be.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, if they're... If they're hitting a roadblock, like hitting a brick wall, I mean, maybe they're not telling you, but maybe they've just run out of options.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So in 2018, which was the year after Kimberly vanished, a tip came in from a reporter who runs an online news source and blog. And he had actually recognized Kimberly from the posters and the reports on her disappearance. And actually many people recognized her because she was such a social person and such a, you know, bright personality. People actually knew her as a regular at a lot of the bars downtown.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so this reporter did some digging and was able to gather stories from witnesses in Brownsville and was able to put together a timeline that led up to Kimberly's disappearance.
Em Schulz: Ooh! Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which is great. I mean, that's more than they had...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Before, you know. It's at least a big step in the right direction. And from what this reporter was able to gather, this is the story of Kimberly's evening.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So she was having beers in a bar with a man that she hadn't ever met before. So someone she didn't know, and he was said to be involved in a criminal group. At last call, they left the bar together, the two of them, and started walking down the street. People heard him loudly demanding something from Kimberly, and it might be... Some people thought maybe he thought she had stolen something from him that he wanted back. So he was...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Loudly demanding something back from her. He was loud enough that it actually woke people up who were living on that street and...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: In bed. And so it woke people up and when they looked outside, they say they saw Kimberly with this man. Then a car pulled up to the sidewalk and Kimberly was shoved into the car.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Before the door closed and the car sped off into the night. So...
Em Schulz: And that was the last.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah, that was it. That was the last anyone had seen. And like, that must just be like a stomach sinking feeling to hear, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So the witnesses, apparently some of them actually recognized the man, but they refused to name him because they were so afraid of the repercussions...
Em Schulz: Shit.
Christine Schiefer: Of naming this person. Umm, and the reporter believes it's likely Kimberly was taken across the border into Mexico by this man.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I mean, that would explain where... Why the trail just stops and like the leads just go completely cold. So the... This reporter went to police with this information, but he never heard anything. It was sort of like, police were like, "Okay, thanks." And never really followed up. And it turns out the Brownsville police never actually reached out to the police in Matamoros. Which is where she would've been taken over the border.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, umm, they never contacted police there. Which is a huge bummer because if something... If somebody had found Kimberly deceased in Mexico for example. Uh, and it was a Jane Doe, Brownsville police wouldn't even be able to like identify...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: If that was her because they never even asked!
Em Schulz: Oh that's such a good point. I wouldn't have even thought about that.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, man, that could have been really... Really a big break, you know? And like sure, it's just one person saying it but also it's not just one person. It's a reporter who's diligently interviewing witnesses and like building a case. It's not like just some...
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Random tip from anonymous, you know? So it's just a bummer. Like I feel like that could've been something but whatever. Uh, eventually another tip did come into police, umm, but weirdly, this is where things are a little bit odd, so...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently the caller hung up before police could get as many answers as they wanted. And so Detective Gonzalez asked Kimberly's family to please hold a press conference in their house in June of 2019. And bizarrely which is the part where I started rewinding when I was watching this episode, because I'm thinking, okay, they're holding a press conference to say what?
Em Schulz: True.
Christine Schiefer: And it turns out they didn't know. Police basically said, "We're not gonna tell you what the tip is."
Em Schulz: Did they think someone would like come to their press conference or would tune in or something?
Christine Schiefer: I think what they wanted was for the family to say... To almost make an appeal to the caller and say, "Please... "
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: "Call back. We know you hung up, but like, please call back."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But the family didn't know what the hell the caller had said.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: So it's almost like police were kind of withholding that, umm, and saying, here, hold a press conference say this, but we're not giving you any more information. And so the investigators basically all they said was that the tipster and other people in the community were choosing to not come forward with relevant information. So it must have been good enough information to warrant a press conference because they instructed Kimberly's family to basically...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Make this plea to... To call back. For the tipster to call back. And Ivon in the press conference said, "You had a reason to call that day and give the information you gave." Which by the way, they don't know what it is. "I'm begging you to call back." So they're just hoping like, Hey...
Em Schulz: Hopefully...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe this will come to something.
Em Schulz: That someone, maybe the right person will even see this. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The right person will even see this. And so nothing happened. They heard nothing more and police never told the family what the caller had said. Which is...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Wild to me. So, you know, as you can tell, authorities start off strong and now it's like they're just kind of backing off and becoming more and more evasive. And then things just go even worse, because in 2019 they held a public vigil for Kimberly and the county district attorney called for justice for Kimberly. But as he is making this speech with the bereaved family behind him, he says, "We are looking for her killer."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And Kimberly's...
Em Schulz: So it's implied she's dead now.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And Kimberly's mom, like basically collapses. Like this is something they had never heard before. And so the family is just like in total crisis mode all of a sudden. And it's basically one of those situations where you can hear a crowd like mumbling, like "Did he just say killer?" You know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like reporters are like, "Wait, did we hear that correctly? Did the family know that?" You know.
Em Schulz: So like... So now the family's thinking like, did, do...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Have they known she's dead for a while?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like did they...
Em Schulz: And didn't say anything. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What do they know that they haven't told us? They're keeping us, you know, stringing us along. So the police, like I said, never indicated to the family that this had changed from a missing person to a homicide. And they had never told the family that they even suspected Kimberly was dead. So if this was the tip that came in it was never communicated to the family.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so Ivon said both of her parents just immediately started crying and other people were kind of like trying to get to the bottom of this, mumbling in confusion. And so the family thankfully had an advocate who approached the chief of police as like literally live as this is happening. And is like, "What is the district attorney talking about? Why did he say killer?" And the police chief was like, "I don't know." And he went up to the district attorney whispers in his ear, literally the DA puts down the microphone in the middle of his sentence and leaves.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And gets in his car and drives away. [laughter]
Em Schulz: He's like, I made a big fucking accident.
Christine Schiefer: He's like I made a fucking boohoo and I'm not gonna own up to it. Fuck you all, see ya.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow. That's...
Christine Schiefer: And just leaves.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: And so reporters are like, fuck this. They follow him [laughter] right?
Em Schulz: Yes. Good. Okay, good.
Christine Schiefer: Like he gets to his car. They're like, "Hey answer the fucking question, what is going on?" So they follow him all the way back to his office where he slams the door, locks it and refuses to comment. And they're like, "What the fuck is going on?" So now the family's in turmoil like give us answers. This DA is being like a real dick and nobody knows what's going on. And he later explained that he had gotten Kimberly's case mixed up with a different victim. So that's why he said that.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Bullshit.
Christine Schiefer: Which... If that's even true, then like, fucking own up to it and apologize to the family, you dipshit.
Em Schulz: And that's why I think it's bullshit. I think he's just like trying to...
Christine Schiefer: Save face somehow?
Em Schulz: I think he... I think he had a... Some... Somehow was tipped off in some way or knew something for a long time.
Christine Schiefer: That's what it... That's...
Em Schulz: And it had never been publicized.
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of the gut feeling I get. And you know...
Em Schulz: And he got caught.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's where my head went as well. Umm...
Em Schulz: If he... If it was a ge... If it was a genuine accident, he wouldn't have walked away...
Christine Schiefer: Like left.
Em Schulz: In the middle of a press conference and driven away and then locked himself into a room and then refused to say anything.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: That wouldn't have happened.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Yeah. So that's...
Em Schulz: That... That wouldn't have happened.
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of what I think as well except, you know, I understand also the families want to like, believe she's still alive. So it's like, ah... And they still don't have details on that. So it's like how can they trust that that's real information. If... God, it must just be... Like it added a whole nother layer to this nightmare for them, basically. 'Cause now they're... Now there's like a hint that she might've been killed, but they're not sure.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And they don't have answers. Oh my gosh. As of June, 2023, like a couple months ago, the family still knows nothing. There's no information, no leads, no clues. Umm, Ivon has said, "It's been six long and very painful years. We still don't know anything. We still get the same thing from the police department." And so, you know, the only, uh... We like to throw silver lining in every now and then. Umm, in the wake of Kimberly's disappearance, the Brownsville LGBT+ community created an official task force, which actually advocates for the safety and needs of those in the queer community.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Especially in cases like this where they're like maybe missing or have been involved in a criminal incident. And so, you know, Ivon said Kimberly would be thrilled at how the community has kind of changed for the better, has progressed, has advanced, but of course also wishes like Kimberly wasn't the cost of this...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Progress, you know?
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so the family speaks, uh, on Kimberly anytime they can to keep her story alive. And the hope is that somebody, the right person will, you know, find the courage to share information or maybe a light bulb moment will go off. Umm, and maybe they will be able to get some answers. There is a $10,000 reward and people are encouraged to share information, umm, about Kimberly, uh, on social media, via podcasts, what have you, just to keep her story and her face on the public's mind. I mean, we'll definitely post, umm, her poster, uh...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Both of her posters on Instagram. And anyone with information on Kimberly Avila should contact the Brownsville Police Department. You can do that at 956-548-7000. Or you can call Brownsville Crime Stoppers, which is 956-546-8477. And one thing I also wanna point out, which like I don't think I mentioned very often, is that you can leave an anonymous tip. So like...
Em Schulz: Mmh.
Christine Schiefer: If you're ever like, kind of fearful of identifying yourself or what have you, there are ways to leave anonymous tips. Umm.
Em Schulz: Good point.
Christine Schiefer: So that is an option if you're uncomfortable, you know, with them knowing who you are or why you have this information. So in June, Ivon shared a simple plea. This is, you know, the sixth year anniversary of her disappearing.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, she shared a simple plea. She said, "We miss her a lot, and if anybody knows anything, please just know you can call. That's all we ask." And Kimberly's father said, "I would like to tell him if he is seeing me, blessed God to come back home, that this is his house. And it always has been, that we are eagerly waiting, looking forward to seeing him again. I ask God that he lets me see him before I die."
Em Schulz: Oh my God. That's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And that's the story of Kimberly Avila.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Terribly sad. It's just like, you... You just think how many amazing, amazing things she would've been able to do in this world, you know.
Em Schulz: With the amount of support she had...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The amount of confidence she clearly had...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which loved her sass from the beginning.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But I mean, just to be able to hold her head up high in an area that wasn't...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know, meant for people like that. In... In whatever way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's... She could have done some real damage.
Christine Schiefer: You just.
Em Schulz: She had a lot of power. Lost star power.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You just think like that the... The... The star power, yeah. You just think like the... The space she could have made for people who don't have that same support system.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And that kind of thing. Umm, so it's... It's all in all, umm, pretty, pretty tragic, but there's still hope, you know, umm, maybe we'll find her, maybe she'll come back home.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We can only hope.
Em Schulz: And that's why we drink this week.
Christine Schiefer: Indeed. Indeed.
Em Schulz: Jeez.
Christine Schiefer: I... Sometimes I wonder if we should just end the podcast after I say the last terrible thing and let everybody else figure out a way to make themselves feel better.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And just go straight into. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just, here's the song. Bye. We're like that fucking district attorney. I'm just like running, getting in the car and driving away.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just go lock ourselves in a room and...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck you guys.
Em Schulz: Hope everyone knocks. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry I made you all feel like shit. Now leave me alone. [laughter] I like relate to that behavior so much, even though I totally don't condone it. And I think it's so fucked up what he did. But I'm like, I do get that like sudden and urge to be like, oh, I made a big mistake. I'm gonna run away and no one can see me if I can't see them.
Em Schulz: I mean, your whole job is to bum people out. So it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's true.
Em Schulz: No wonder you're... No wonder your therapist has always got like a super bill ready to send you. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Help me. I need to get the tarot deck out and like, uh, read a little.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Tarot, make myself feel better.
Em Schulz: Do you want to pick a card today?
Christine Schiefer: Actually? Yeah! Let's do that, Em. That'll be a fun little ending.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Watch. If you like you.
Em Schulz: You pick the card, I'll do the shuffling. But you pick the card.
Christine Schiefer: Better not be like death or hermit or...
Em Schulz: No, no, no. Okay, I'm shuffling. And then whenever you say stop, I'm just gonna pick the one on top.
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: Okay. The Three of Pentacles, and again, it's me as a clown. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: No. [laughter] I did not pick you as a clown. That's ridiculous.
Em Schulz: What is... What does it mean? Can you google it real quick, Three of Pentacles?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I am. Okay. So it is an encouragement that you are on the right track. Oh, this is from biddytarot.com.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But hey, that...
Christine Schiefer: They know... They know what they are talking about.
Em Schulz: As you just said, that you've, umm... You have a constant... A fear of ruining people's days. You're on the right track, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I am. Good for me. I'm on the right track. Umm, it's, it says, uh, Three of Pentacles shows a young stone mason working with his tools on a portion of a cathedral. I'm like, does it or does it show Em on a unicycle dressed as a clown?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm a stone mason. What the fuck are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Stone mason working on a cathedral. Good for you. Em, [laughter], you tell yourself whatever you need.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Circus will be held in there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. There you... [laughter] The circus tent. It's... It's Em's cathedral, you know, [laughter] umm... Wow. So, uh, this is a really long article, so I'm not gonna read this whole thing. But basically it says, your hard work, dedication, and attention to detail will not be going unnoticed as the Three of Pentacles represents achievement, recognition and rewards!
Em Schulz: Oh, lookie, that was probably the best card you could have pulled then.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Sure. I'll take it. It'll take it.
Em Schulz: That's a big pat on the back for you. Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you so much, [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, if anyone wants to listen to us keep babbling, you can head over to Patreon for our After Hours and, umm, I've got something prepared for us, Christine, and we...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: We had it prepared the last time we had an after hours and I think you just forgot what we're gonna do, but, umm, I'm very excited.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I do. I... I 100% forget, so I can't wait to be surprised.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. I did not. You're gonna be very excited.
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
