[intro music]
Em Schulz: Hmm. [laughter] What does... How to say... How to say what to say and how do I say it, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm so glad you asked. Welcome to And That's Why We Drink. We tell you scary stories about ghosts and about murderers.
Em Schulz: And those are the reasons why we drink, except we also have more.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, right.
Em Schulz: Christine, do you have anything to complain about?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, always. Uh, thank you for asking once again. Um, I have something here. I'm gonna like turn the computer to show you what's next to me.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: I've... Well, let me move my geriatric pill container 'cause that's also next to me.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, this is not a joke. I received this in the mail.
Em Schulz: What? Oh, God. What, is it more teeth?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: What is it?
Christine Schiefer: No, it's probably worse. It is hundreds of photographs.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. They're...
Christine Schiefer: Of like dead people.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, they're not dead in the photographs, but they are clearly dead now. I mean, look at this one.
Em Schulz: I have some in my room.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I received a box and it was very ominous and it had a name on it. I totally forget who sent it. It had a return address.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But that's it. It had a return address. And then I opened the box and it was just piles of these photographs. And on the back they're like signed. It's... This one says "Levi Bond, two years and seven months old." I mean, these photos are from like the... What, what decade would you say that?
Em Schulz: Also, uh, I...
Christine Schiefer: 1800s?
Em Schulz: I would say it's from the, um, '18... It, it was, um, pre-1920s. And I only...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Say that because I have exact pictures like that right now that are from before the 1920s. And I could hear... You wanna do another sound where you drop one? Because it's not just paper.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the tin ones?
Em Schulz: They're like... Yeah. They're like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I have tin, tintype photos in here. Oh, like look at this. This is literally on the back of it, is an ad for crayons from 1889.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh!
Christine Schiefer: I mean, like, I'm telling you, when I opened this and there were... All these photos fell out of all these... I mean, hello? Look at this broad.
Em Schulz: She looks like she knows how I'm gonna die. Um...
Christine Schiefer: This is probably... [laughter] Here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know how to, how to show... But like, there's like little tin... But they just arrived. And some of them say like Cincinnati, Ohio on them. And if you sent these to me, uh, brava, because you really scared me. [laughter] I opened this and there was no note. There was nothing except... No explanation, nothing except all these creepy photos of old dead people. And I was like, "What am I supposed to do with this?" Um, I feel like... I was just listening to another podcast as well. Oh, this guy's very handsome though.
Em Schulz: Oh! Hey, girl. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um. He's a looker. I just... Like, like creepy Victorian children, like black and white photos of like, sepia photos of children who are now deceased. It's, it's really creeping me out. Um, and I put them in my closet 'cause I like kind of love them and I kind of hate them all at the same time.
Em Schulz: Wow. You put them in the same spot where you put everything you hate and love...
Christine Schiefer: I put them in the closet...
Em Schulz: That's super haunted?
Christine Schiefer: That everything goes, uh, especially haunted stuff. And then I was like, "Oh, it's so weird. I keep getting all this strange activity in my office." And then someone, my brother or Blaise was like, "Didn't you get like a million... " I mean, hello? If this is not a haunt... A lady, a haunting picture... I mean, her eyes are missing. Like she literally has no eyes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know... And like, I mean, she does look a bit like she was the prototype for a spirit Halloween corpse.
Christine Schiefer: Right! It looks like it's a fake thing.
Em Schulz: With love. But like, she's beautiful. Like I'm sure she...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 1891, um...
Em Schulz: I'm sure she had a great heart.
Christine Schiefer: So, and it... Like family portraits. And you know, like the amount people spent on a photo, like one of these portraits of their whole family, like, you know this was like a prized possession. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Like the amount of money and just like the amount of...
Em Schulz: I do think it's real ballsy. Like, I mean, I can kind of low-key call her a spirit Halloween corpse because I'm not in the room with her. But it's real bold of you in the same breath to say, "There's a lot of activity in this room. Also, look at her. She doesn't have eyes."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You got me there. Um...
Em Schulz: If she could see, she'd be looking at you so hard right now.
Christine Schiefer: I call these people mom and dad. Um, they are...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They're...
Em Schulz: I call his beard my pet.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Look at her braid.
Em Schulz: You know what...
Christine Schiefer: I dont know if you can see it.
Em Schulz: She looks like she appreciated the benefits of a library.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe she likes my messy ass closet. Um, anyway, I just like, I just... I've been meaning to show these to you for probably like three months because I got them a long time ago, like months ago.
Em Schulz: Well, hello, Christine. You've been saying, "Oh, I don't know why, but things feel weird in here. Things feel weird in here."
Christine Schiefer: I know it... I know it's so stupid. It occurred to me the other day when somebody made the connection for me and I went, "Oh."
Em Schulz: Ooh. Of all the pictures, you know how like when you pull like a tarot card or you pull... Like you have to go with like what your...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Soul is feeling.
Christine Schiefer: Your intention.
Em Schulz: If you had to pull one that you think might have an attachment to it, which one do you think it is? I think it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Girly with the no eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Girly with no eyes. This one looks like, um, Eleven from Stranger Things to me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, you know, it, it, uh... Em, I would say probably these like uh, Dust Bowl survivors.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That'll do it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I, I... You know, it's a hard question to answer because literally all of them scare the shit out of me. Um, and no one's ever smiling, of course, and they all are wearing long white Victorian dresses. I mean, anyway, I, I just like felt like I had to share this. And if you sent these to me, again, brava, but also reveal yourself because in my mind, [laughter] I've created a narrative that like a ghost sent these to me from beyond, you know, um, and I'm supposed to like do something with them.
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, I don't know what to do with them. Like, I wanna... I don't wanna just toss 'em. They seem like people's memories, you know?
Em Schulz: And it's... But also, it does feel... Like if it was one or two, I could see you hanging them on a wall and like put, lighting a candle for them. But there's, there really is hundreds next to you.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like...
Em Schulz: Like, what do you do with them?
Christine Schiefer: Like it, it's... Statistically speaking, some of these people had to be assholes, at least some of them.
Em Schulz: Someone was a piece of shit. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like, I don't think I necessarily want to invite all of these people's energy into my home. So I'm sort of like, how do I go about handling these? Does anybody know? Like, I... Should I give them to like a historic site? Like I don't really know what to do. And I kind of...
Em Schulz: Well, especially, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like them 'cause I feel like it's fun to like look through and see people's memories and families. But part of me is like, well, I don't know if I'm the one who should hold on to them. Um...
Em Schulz: Maybe you can pull one...
Christine Schiefer: Wait.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. This lady... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Literally uh, standing next to a chair, and on the chair is just her beautiful hat. It has its own... She's like...
Em Schulz: She's the one you have to light a candle for. You must.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The hat is the one. The dead ostrich or whatever that was made into a hat is the one I have to...
Em Schulz: She, she deserves to be framed with a candle for her, 1000%.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, Amen. Like, she is so extra. She literally is standing next to a chair, she's not even sitting, 'cause the hat has taken the front seat uh, center stage.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I like to think there's either two narratives going on. One, it's giving like feminist and she's like, "I don't need a man. Here's my fucking fashion for you."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. "I married my hat." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Or also like, she was in a shitty relationship, but the guy didn't make it to their photo appointment.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And she was like, "You know what, this is what you're worth to me. I'm going to put... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "The hat in your place and the picture will be even better than if you were here."
Christine Schiefer: "It'll look better than if you were here." Also, a picture takes like, what, 16 days to take in the 1800s? So like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: He could've made it for at least half, but he never showed.
Em Schulz: You know she went Halloween...
Christine Schiefer: Look at this cowboy child. Cowboy child.
Em Schulz: Oh. Is it a cowboy or is he just wearing a sunhat? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Um... Well... [chuckle] Okay. Well, you know what, I don't have the answer. I don't have... I don't have the answer for you. I'm sorry. [laughter] Um... I...
Em Schulz: I do... What about... What if... Okay. So what if like... I don't know enough of the witchy world, but I do believe there's probably something where you can put them all in like one big binder and like do like uh, a...
Christine Schiefer: A little respectful...
Em Schulz: Like uh, a mass, uh, an, an all-mass...
Christine Schiefer: Like a ritual?
Em Schulz: Letting them go and onto the light or something.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: But what if like one of them sticks around, you know?
Em Schulz: I do feel like you should pull a couple and whatever like uh, speaks to you, maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: They're supposed to be with you and the others can be brought to...
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's kind of nice.
Em Schulz: An archival space. I mean, it does say they're from Cincinnati. So those people did live in your neighborhood.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I didn't even think of that. Yeah, some of them are like Dayton, some of them are Indiana. They're all like local.
Em Schulz: Some of them... Girl, you should go to your own fucking cemetery...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And see if any of them are buried there.
Christine Schiefer: Like you say my own cemetery, like I, [laughter] like I own and operate it.
Em Schulz: Well, if you lived on it, I, I think of you as the groundskeeper. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're not wrong in that respect. My cats and I did spend an inordinate amount of time in that cemetery.
Em Schulz: But that's the one you should keep. How eerie would it be if one of them actually has been buried in your front yard this whole time?
Christine Schiefer: That's horrifying. Well, here's one of another cowboy child who might just be in a sunhat. But...
Em Schulz: He's not even in a hat. He's just a child. [laughter] He's just a child.
Christine Schiefer: But he's wearing like little booties and like a little ascot.
Em Schulz: Okay. Maybe that's just what happened when it was dirty everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: I just... Fair point. [laughter] Maybe I'll just mail them to you. You seem to have a good understanding of how these uh...
Em Schulz: No. I'm meaner. I think I'd put them in the trash. So I think...
Christine Schiefer: You'd probably just like throw them away immediately. Yeah, that's fair.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, I'll... In the dumpster, I'd say, "I leave you with love and light. Farewell."
Christine Schiefer: This is my... This one I... Farewell. [laughter] This one I call Walter 'cause his eyes really frighten me. Um...
Em Schulz: He has enough eyes for him and that other girl. Damn.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Maybe he took hers.
Em Schulz: Hey, he's wearing, he's wearing a fedora. Is he a cowboy or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you know what, Em, I've had just about enough of your attitude today. Um, anyway, I just like, I felt like we should all... This is the last one I'll show you, this bearded man. I just feel like...
Em Schulz: That's Abraham Lincoln.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What if it was? Um, as a child. Abraham Lincoln as a child.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: With his white beard.
Christine Schiefer: He's from Kentucky, isn't he? Log cabin.
Em Schulz: Oh... I...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Uh, I'm so sorry. I'm done. Uh, I just... I like... That's why I drink for many months now.
Em Schulz: Shit. That's why I drink. I hope you didn't...
Christine Schiefer: And I kept accidentally finding them 'cause like you said, there's hundreds and I would like put them in a pile and then like one would slide out and be like, clank on the floor and I would look down and it'd be like a ruffly Victorian child staring at me. And I... It just like... It's been so unsettling to have these in my presence, but I also kind of love them. I don't know. You know, you know I love them also a little bit.
Em Schulz: Man. Um, I do know you love them, which makes me a little nervous because I don't think you're ever going to fully relinquish them. [laughter] I think they're just...
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm not. I'm not. Unless there like a really...
Em Schulz: Part of your home now.
Christine Schiefer: Sincere reason someone says I should, then I'm not. Um, sorry everybody, but...
Em Schulz: I do think it's lovely that someone sent them to you knowing... And it was a little uh, manipulative of like...
Christine Schiefer: It felt a little like they knew what they were... Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like we, we both know Christine is not going to get rid of them, so at least I know they're safe in her house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: But.
Em Schulz: I mean, you are the right person to love them if they need... If that's what they need. So...
Christine Schiefer: If they needed a home, sure. Yeah. You cornered me, person, dear sender. I took them. I, I am giving them a home. And um, sometimes they are on the floor and I'm sorry about that, but they're not in the trash, so...
Em Schulz: They would be in the trash with me. So you sent them to the right person. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You sent them to the right... And this was months ago, so I imagine you would've gotten some too if this were like a double gift, you know.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Um...
Em Schulz: I'll send mine to you too, then you'll have double.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Thank you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, uh... It's not that I, like... I am just as sentiment as you are when it comes to like the fact that they were somebody's prized possession, but I love me more than that and like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I... [laughter] I have to have a spiritual boundary and not allow hundreds of people I don't know to come into my home.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I also...
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Have to do that. I've just... I just simply don't. I just simply can't. So yeah, you're right.
Em Schulz: I also... I have so many pictures of my own great-great-great-great grandparents I never met and I know they're just following me around now. I've got enough going on, you know, so...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's part of it. Maybe I wish I had photos of my own family.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I don't really have any. I don't know if I've ever even really seen any. So I'm like, maybe I just feel like, "Oh, this could be my grandma," which is a really insane thought to have.
Em Schulz: Wow! That's...
Christine Schiefer: Looking at a lady with no eyes. But, you know... It, it just is what happened. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Well, I... So I am currently on a mission, um, where...
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Uh...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Ooh boy.
Em Schulz: For... Well, it's not as wild as most of my stuff, but, um, on Ancestry, I'm trying to find pictures of all 16...
Christine Schiefer: That's... Right.
Em Schulz: Of my great-great-grandparents.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And I've gotten, I think half of them.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: And I'm trying to put all their, their faces together.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, where are you getting the photos?
Em Schulz: On Ancestry.
Christine Schiefer: Who's putting them there?
Em Schulz: Like there's other people who've made trees and I'm somehow distantly related to them and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, are you serious? I think it's 'cause my family's from Europe, like there's not a single person.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Do you know what I mean? Like, there's no connection. Like people over there don't really use it. So it's like, there's just no way to track.
Em Schulz: Speaking... It's like my grandma can hear me. She's calling me right now.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, uh, no, like I... We don't... To be fair, there's not like a lot of pictures and they were also prized possessions. But, um, I am surprised at how the ones I do have are in very good condition. And so I'm like trying to...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Figure out... Did I already tell you this? I'm thinking of framing them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And making it look like Spirit Halloween.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and I got you beat 'cause I have 85,000 to also...
Em Schulz: Those... Those... That... Those are actually just terrifying. Yeah. Um...
Christine Schiefer: These are just from Spirit Halloween, I think.
Em Schulz: But my dream is to put all 16 faces up and then be like, who do I look like? And just try to see where my like, where my looks came from.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you can like circle... Like Charlie Day red string it like...
Em Schulz: Yes, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: "My nose goes to my ears."
Em Schulz: 'Cause so far, of the eight that I have, I don't look like fucking any of 'em. So now I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: I... Yeah, but it's hard to say that about yourself. I bet if we looked at them, we'd be like, "Oh my God, this one has your eyebrow." You know what I mean? Like I bet I, I bet Eva and I, our listeners could like pinpoint some things that you don't see. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I'll do a PowerPoint presentation with you and be like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: "And this is this person's nostrils. What do we think?"
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I'll be calling, uh, the authorities under the table and being like, "Okay, Em, you stay put. We're getting you help right now."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, um, I'm... I guess that's uh, that's why I drink because I'm on uh, uh, a certain quest. And I already know I'm never gonna find one of them because apparently the Schulz line, um, is just with every generation, it's worse than the, than the rest. Um...
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean?
Em Schulz: Like, uh, my grandpa was not a great guy and his dad was worse...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, like worse people.
Em Schulz: And his dad was worse and his dad... Yeah. They... The, the Schulzes are not like really a name that I should proudly carry on.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, same with the Schiefers, let's be real. Like I, I'm, I, I understand why there are not many photos on the internet. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Family.
Em Schulz: Um, and uh, the, the Schulz's, my like fifth great-grandfather. Um, we don't even speak about him. Remember I told you...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: When I first started Ancestry, I like finally found his name and I never know his name 'cause they literally won't say his name? Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And he's apparently just supposed to be so fucking terrible at a time when it was not allowed. He was disowned by his own family and like his wife was able to get divorced and like...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Was taken by... So he's pretty awful. And because no one ever...
Christine Schiefer: Did his wife have a really beautiful feathery hat? 'Cause I may have found a photo of her. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, she didn't have eyes. So that's interesting when you say that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well...
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. What a tough relationship that must have been for both of them.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And um, she... Oh well, so I've never known anything about him and I just know there's not a picture of him anywhere. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, I'll only ever get 15 outta 16, but can you believe it? What if I fucking only look like him? That'd be crazy. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I mean... Maybe.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's why I drink 'cause I'm on, I'm on a quest for 16 faces.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I'm on a quest to figure out what to do with like 98 faces, but you know, if, uh...
Em Schulz: You've already got... It's way too many. I'm looking for just a handful and you've got a bucket.
Christine Schiefer: You want a few?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No. No, I don't.
Christine Schiefer: I can give you a special pick. Some of these people like you know were not good people. Like they're super rich and I'm like, "Mm, this is an interesting time." Uh...
Em Schulz: I really... I would... If you're gonna give me any picture, it's gotta be homie with the hat. I love her.
Christine Schiefer: She is an icon. Okay.
Em Schulz: Even if she was mean, uh...
Christine Schiefer: She's an icon.
Em Schulz: She seems like she kinda owned it. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. She at least was confident and self-aware enough to know it about herself. Um...
Em Schulz: Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm proud of her. Uh, oh, this seems to be a pattern. Here's another lady with a hat. Oh wait, now I'm getting upset. Are these people like honoring a dead person or something? There's like empty chairs next to them.
Em Schulz: Oh my. Oh, maybe the hat was someone's favorite hat.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They were such dicks.
Em Schulz: Oh, you know what? It's our own... It's, it's the education system's fault for not teaching us. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Hey, I'd never, never took 1800s photography. It's not my fault. Okay. This is Della and she might be mourning somebody who died. And you know what, um, I'm sorry that I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: You know what, it feels like if you're gonna write her fucking name on the back of that, you could also write more information. Like you could...
Christine Schiefer: I would think so. Um, somebody was, was out of town. Oh. So maybe they... [laughter] Maybe somebody was just traveling for the 16 days it took... Take... Took to take this photograph. I don't know.
Em Schulz: They couldn't re-book their appointment? That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I guess not. [laughter] Two hours east of Franklin. I mean, geez, this seems like quite a, uh, quite a journey people had to go on to get these photographs taken. Um...
Em Schulz: I like to think it was in their version of like a Sears mall and it... They just had to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well no, there's a name on the bottom of a lot of these that is like clearly a studio. It's called, this one, Doddridge Studios in Mentone, Indiana. You know they were like the, the hoppin' spot to get your photo taken. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The place.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, sorry I keep talking. I just like... I just... This is just such a weird, uh, and also very me experience. Like the person who sent it really knew what they were doing. Um...
Em Schulz: You know what's wild though, is think of how many now dead people's hands have touched those pictures.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I was thinking about. And I was thinking how many people's eyes looked at one of these photos every single day and thought like, "Oh, I miss my mommy," or like...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. I've like... "Look how cute my child used to be," or who knows what.
Em Schulz: "Look at my hat."
[overlapping conversation]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "Look at my dead mom's hat that I, uh, am still being mocked for beyond the grave." Um, anyway, so I just, I just felt like I should give those a little shoutout. I don't know if that's gonna help anything or not, or if that's just gonna stir shit up. Unclear.
Em Schulz: I wonder if you can like, do like some sort of, um, negotiation with the historical society and be like, "I'm not giving you these pictures, but I do want you to figure out who they are for free and tell me all about it, you know."
Christine Schiefer: For free. And I think that negotiation is a winner in my book.
Em Schulz: Pending. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't really see any downside for anyone.
Em Schulz: Not, [chuckle] not for us.
Christine Schiefer: Not for me anyway. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, okay, great. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What a way to start this. Thank you for making it nice and creepy in here.
Christine Schiefer: Now I have to sit next to 400... I change the number every time, but just please know folks, like I'm gonna show this one more time on my camera, but there's... And this is not all of them. This is just a handful I took from my closet. Um, but they're...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, hundreds of them.
Em Schulz: It's multiple shoe boxes' worth, probably.
Christine Schiefer: Multiple. Yeah, for sure.
Em Schulz: Um, how big of a box got sent to you?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it wasn't even that big. It was just very dense. It was probably like, you know, like a...
Em Schulz: Ah. I understand.
Christine Schiefer: Shoe box size and it was just like packed with photos and I just was so alarmed.
Em Schulz: Can you at least do like the, the...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: Like, like shuffle kind of thing?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, make them... Uh, you know what, actually, um, come to think of it, I think it might've been sent in a manila envelope, which is even creepier. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Something sinister about that. I'm pretty sure...
Em Schulz: Was there a bloody hand print on it?
Christine Schiefer: You know, I may have thrown uh, the packaging away before I realized that that might contain a clue, you know. Um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It says, "Confidential. Leave for the police."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Do not open." It's like a Dybbuk box. You're gonna unleash something.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh gosh. Well, I'm glad to not be you. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Well, what else is new?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, okay. I have a story for you, um, today and...
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: I, I feel like... You know what's wild? 300-something episodes, I still have, feel the need to tell you I have an episode, like a story for you. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's...
Em Schulz: That's why we're here.
Christine Schiefer: I do it every time too. I go, "Well I'm going to tell you a story. Surprise!" Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, my story for you is another story where it's got a lot of overwhelming information and a lot of history. So this is a 101. And I'm trying my best, but it's like a bunch of the characters have the same name. So, um... And also, I did try to figure out the pronunciations for a lot of the stuff 'cause it's in fucking Romanian.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, super.
Em Schulz: Um, just know I tried, I tried, I tried. Okay. So um, this is the story of the Bran Castle, Bran Castle and Vlad the Impaler.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Vlad the what?
Em Schulz: Which... Vlad the Impaler.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you said Impala and I was like, you're already messing it up.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. Uh, no, I didn't fuck it up that bad.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good.
Em Schulz: Um, I at least knew there weren't like... I'm thinking Impala's the car. They weren't around in the medieval times.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Chevy Impala, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, okay, so this... Uh, and again, if you're like a historian and you're all about this kind of stuff, this is not the episode for you. This is not much of a detail.
Christine Schiefer: Or it is and you can just... If you are a calm person who doesn't get upset by inconsistencies or... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yes. I am also equally obsessed with certain things and if I heard just a quick overview...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "That's... You're not even mentioning really crucial things."
Christine Schiefer: Like, what about the Avengers?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you're someone like that, then you know, maybe just skip right to Christine's story. So um, this is... I'm starting in the mid-15th century. Um, Vlad or Vlad is known, uh, at the time, he's just... I'm just gonna call him Vlad.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Um, and because he goes by a bunch of different names, but uh, what he was known for originally was that he was a Voivode, um, of what I think is, it's called Wallachia, which is now part of Romania, and a Voivode...
Christine Schiefer: He was a...
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, I gotcha. A Voivode is this very powerful king-appointed position in the military where you're like, you're essentially a, like prince status.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And not only that, but you are, um, raised your entire life to be ready for this position. The only way that they know that you're eligible to become one in the future is if you're a descendant of a previous Voivode.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, and so I guess... And I'm sure there's other things, but in his case, he was eligible because his father was a Voivode. And I think like his great-grandfather or another ancestor of his was a very powerful guy too. Um, so essentially you have to be a legacy.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And, uh, so he was raised training for this title to potentially be the next Voivode. He was learning, um, prince-like etiquette. He was learning different languages. He was learning music and horseback riding and how to fight and combat. And he was expected to have essentially like a Spartan-like athleticism to him. Like he's supposed to be perfect.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. High bar.
Em Schulz: Um... Yeah. Something... I don't wanna be a Voivode. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I'll just say uh, it sounds like a terrible job.
Em Schulz: It sounds awful. But you would go like essentially to this boarding school. And so it's like a very elitist thing. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: He was also taught through this that because he was getting, getting all this experience and all this training and he was going to be this prince, or king-appointed position in the military, he was being taught his whole life that he was very superior and he was destined for like sovereignty. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: He's a little prince.
Em Schulz: He's a little narcissist. Um... Not to conflate the two...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He's a little pillar of the community.
Em Schulz: He's a little pillar of the community. Exactly. So, uh, he went by many names. He went by Vlad III. So that's one.
Christine Schiefer: Cute.
Em Schulz: He was also, uh, known as Vlad Dracula, which Dracula the Vampire was not a thing yet. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Dracula was because, um, his dad was known as Vlad Dracul and Dracula was the son of Dracul.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Um, so he was known as Vlad Dracul... Or no, I'm sorry, he was known as Vlad Dracula. He was...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Known as Vlad III, or he was also known as Vlad, I think the Romanian pronunciation is "tep-ish". It's spelled like Tepes. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: But uh, any person with a Romanian accent who I saw on YouTube was calling it Vlad Tepes. Um, and it translates to...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Vlad the Impaler.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, some in Romania would call him a hero because he was like known to like take no shit, essentially.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: But outside of Romania, he is known to be quite a bloodthirsty monster.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, I don't think I've ever heard anything super good about him, but...
Em Schulz: Right. Not like all of Romania thinks he's a hero either. But some people would argue for like devil's advocate purposes, I guess, that he, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Protected the country or something. Um, so in 1431 or around there, we think he was born in Transylvania, which is also now a part of Romania, I think. That's what I've been told. I'm terrible at geography. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Me too. [laughter] So don't look at me, folks.
Em Schulz: Uh, speaking of being terrible at geography, I tried to look up the pronunciation and I got three different options. So, uh-oh. Um, but his mom was a princess of Moldavia. Moldavia. Moldavia.
Christine Schiefer: Moldovia? I have no idea.
Em Schulz: That's Moldova, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Moldova, right.
Em Schulz: Moldavia. I think it's Moldavia. But his mom was uh, a princess there, and his dad was the illegitimate son of a nobleman. Illegitimate was brought up quite a lot in the research, so I feel like I need to say it.
Christine Schiefer: A-ha.
Em Schulz: His dad, Vlad II, or as I call him Vlad the Dad, um...
Christine Schiefer: Vlad the...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He was, uh... He ended up being invited into this elite order of Christian knights that I think was also king-appointed and it was... He was called... Or the order itself was called The Order of the Dragon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my, my.
Em Schulz: And he got to be part of this, this order as a knight. Um, and I am assuming him having been a Voivode himself helped him get to this point.
Christine Schiefer: For sure.
Em Schulz: Eventually, Vlad the Dad, um, because he was in this order, he was, uh, given a name. And so instead of Vlad II, he was called Vlad Dracul. And Dracul was translated to dragon.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, that's pretty kickass.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine? He's like, "Oh, I joined this like, sick secret society, but they call me Dragon." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. "Oh, that? Yeah, that's just my alter ego, Dragon. Don't worry about it."
Em Schulz: "They, they call me Dragon, but don't worry, I'm not like a bad boy. I'm not a bad boy. I'm just... "
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Only if you catch me on the wrong... "
Em Schulz: Day.
Christine Schiefer: "Side of The bed." I don't know how that phrase works.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So Vlad II or our main character's dad becomes known as Dragon. Um, and so His name's Vlad Dracul, and then his son becomes Vlad Dracula, which means Son of the Dracul, or Son of the dragon.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, uh, eventually... I'm just gonna start calling them Dragon or Son of the Dragon, just to get through this part so it's... 'Cause there's too many fucking Vlads.
Christine Schiefer: Great. I'll follow.
Em Schulz: Um, eventually, Dragon, uh, he, he betrays the group to fight for the Ottoman Empire.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: That Is apparently an understatement. There are chapters and chapters in history books on this.
Christine Schiefer: There's some, there's somebody out there who wrote an entire dissertation just on that and you just said it and they, and then went on, moved on with their life and they are having a... I get now why you're saying people might have an existential crisis listening to this.
Em Schulz: I'm giving a log line when they wrote a whole thesis and I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Mmm, but in summary, this is what happened, right?"
Christine Schiefer: "It's something like this. Anyway... "
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, but we could just say it this way, couldn't we?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but it's easier, you know, to just move on.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So he betrays the group to fight for the Ottoman Empire, and in 1442, things go wrong when the Ottoman Empire's leader, he's a sultan, um, he, I think he like, he tricks Vlad, because Vlad is... Something goes wrong where they were helping each other, now they're not helping each other and now they're mad at each other. So the Sultan says like, "Oh, Vlad, come... " Or Dragon, whatever. "Come here and bring your two sons in for a meeting, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Well, it was a trap...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And Vlad II or Dragon gets arrested, and the two sons that he brought with him, Radu and Vlad III or Son of Dragon, they end up being essentially kidnapped.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And to be freed from being arrested, the father agrees to, I don't know how or why, but like talk about fucking daddy issues for Vlad the Impaler.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: To be freed, Dragon says, "Free me and you can have my two sons." Let's just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you can... I... Yeah, I saw that coming. Give, give them away.
Em Schulz: Just leave them with the sultan of the Ottoman Empire.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like that's not gonna create some problems. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So now they're in a country that they don't know. Apparently, they're... It's a language they don't speak. Um, and uh, the agreement that they made at some point was that the brothers' education would still be continued, even though they were hostages.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good. Well, as long as you get to do homework while you're being kidnapped, then everything's fine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, kill me. Like, at least you'd get to miss out on school. You know what I mean? Like, I'd think that'd be at least one perk, but whatever.
Em Schulz: In such, in such intense education too, of like...
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, like learning French and the piano, I only, can only imagine.
Em Schulz: Well, so this was, um, actually a political tactic because the sultan was singing, "If I bring them up to be on our side, then I'll build trust between their people and mine." Which...
Christine Schiefer: I see, okay.
Em Schulz: LOL, I'm gonna build trust by keeping the prince hostage. Um, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's a little... It's a little Stockholm syndrome-y, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yes. He was very much, if we're gonna totally like boil it down to something, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Simplified.
Em Schulz: He was... Simplified. He was leaning into, "Stockholm syndrome is going to work in our favor and They're going to like us and... "
Christine Schiefer: Excellent. What a bold choice.
Em Schulz: So, uh, he raises the brothers. 'Cause both of them, remember, since they're both legacies of their father, both of them...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Could become a Voivode. So they're both being raised this way. And I guess the brother, Radu, he was seen as much more agreeable and he was adjusted more to the situation than Vlad did.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, Vlad was seen as more of the troublemaker. And this actually led to creating a wedge between the brothers because one was getting favored more.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, so on top of like incredible abandonment issues and the pressure of being a fucking prince, um, Vlad also now only has a friend in this hostage situation with his brother and now they're being torn apart. So...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Leads to a lot of resentment between them. And I think also the sultan had a son who was growing up and was around their age. So like all three of them were being raised together. But the brother and the sultan's son were closer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So Vlad felt like the third wheel a lot. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, this... TLC would have a field day with this shit. This is like Game of Thrones level drama. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. [laughter] Uh, I'm sure there's a historian out there where it's like, "It's called the History Channel. They have it."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's actually... I'm sure it's not the History Channel, if you watch that channel lately.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, no, I haven't.
Christine Schiefer: It's like all about aliens and shit. It's like travel channel. Like they're like this... Never mind.
Em Schulz: Historians must be pissed.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, so eventually the, the brothers are being raised here under the agreement they made with their dad to be freed. But eventually, the father starts breaking whatever agreement he made with the sultan, so the brothers start being treated a little worse. And I don't know what that means because their education continued, but I think they were just not treated as one of the sultan's own kids, or maybe he, they were... Maybe they were being like beaten terribly. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, whatever happened, it ultimately contributed to even more of future Vlad the Impaler's tough exterior, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: So five years into this situation, it's now 1447, and the Ottomans end up killing the dad. I think it was like some sort of political move, or they just want to...
Christine Schiefer: Vlad II, the dad...
Em Schulz: Vlad the Dad.
Christine Schiefer: Vlad the Dad, got it.
Em Schulz: So the Ottomans end up killing him...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And another brother who wasn't held hostage. So now Vlad's finding out, "Oh, through all of this other stuff, my life is uh, nothing but peaches, and now on top of all this other garbage, my father and another brother of mine have just been killed by the people raising me."
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, okay.
Em Schulz: Later, uh, Vlad, our main character, son of Dragon, um, he is released and this is when he begins his rise to power. And...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In his own rise to power, some think that his motivation was just to avenge his father and brother. Others say that he was power-hungry from the start. Uh, there's a lot of theories as to how he got this way. But also like...
Christine Schiefer: I imagine.
Em Schulz: Any therapist could tell you that it wasn't gonna be good for him. So...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I was gonna say things started out rough. Like, let's be honest.
Em Schulz: And keep in mind, up until this point, he just turned 16 years old.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: So some formative years of a lot of fuckery. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you read my journal from 16 and it sounds like I've been through the same thing and I was barely scratching the surface, it sounds like.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So in 1448, he's 16 years old, he takes the throne as the next Voivode, um, but he only holds the title for like fucking two months. And then I don't know what the, I don't know what the drama is here, but if you're a historian and you wanna tell me, that'd be great. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Em wants to know just that.
Em Schulz: Homie gets fucking exiled for eight years... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: After two months of being Voivode.
Christine Schiefer: You don't know why?
Em Schulz: I think... I'm sure there's an actual reason. I just didn't do enough digging on it. But, um... Or no, there's... I, I still don't know the answer, but there definitely was because I was watching a YouTube video about like his entire life and it, it got mentioned, but I was finishing up notes on something. It just didn't get written down. But he, he gets exiled. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Loving their drama that everything he's ever worked for, and then despite all of the fucking bullshit he had to get through on top of that, he finally does become Voivode. Like, what an accomplishment. And then eight weeks later, he's exiled. So, yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Well, it's fun while it lasted, I hope.
Em Schulz: So he essentially is now backpacking through Europe. Like I think he's just got nowhere really to go. And at some point he...
Christine Schiefer: He's taking a gap year.
Em Schulz: Taking a victory lap and he, um, he ditches the Ottoman Empire. I don't blame him. Sounds like they've done a number on him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And he aligns himself with Hungary. Um, he engages I think with the Hungarian Voivode and they do like hand-to-hand combat...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And this is in 1456, so now he's six, eight... So now, he's 24 years old. Um, he's been backpacking this entire time, then he aligns with Hungary. Now he's becoming, uh... He has to fight hand-to-hand with another Voivode to claim the title.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Um, so he... And I'm assuming that... Another reason that I'm using a bunch of different names and trying to avoid this one is because our main character, Vlad, has to fight, I think I'm pretty sure the Voivode of Hungary whose name is Vladislav.
Christine Schiefer: Pfft.
Em Schulz: So, fucking everyone... It's like the name John. So um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So both Voivodes fight each other. Our main guy, he straight up beheads the other one.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, what?
Em Schulz: And, and immediate... This is like... I guess he won the fight. So he begins his reign as the new Voivode with Hungary's military support. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's all it takes, I guess.
Em Schulz: Just one head. Yep. So immediately he's known as a harsh ruler with no tolerance for crime. LOL. He beheaded someone to get here.
Christine Schiefer: No tolerance policy and starting now. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right. It's like, "Unless it's me." Um, so he also appoints people from other countries and commoners, um, to official positions instead of, I guess like people higher up politically or royally. So I think this was a power tactic because...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: They didn't have any other... They didn't know any other people amongst allies to collude with, so they had to fully rely on him.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: If that makes sense. Like he hired people that he could fully control. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Right. Like put uh, his own people under him. I, I see.
Em Schulz: And it was also a very scary thing because he fully controlled them. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And he's... He beheaded somebody to get here. So he's not afraid to fucking kill you if you disappoint him. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which like had to be rough because like if you're a commoner who has no like qualifications for this job and then you fuck up in some way, are you just dead now? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Oof. Probably. I mean...
Em Schulz: Like imagine being an intern at the White House or something. Uh, or actually, I'm sorry, imagine being you and now you work at the White House all of a sudden, and if you disappoint anyone once, you're gonna be beheaded.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "The president picked you. Aren't you lucky? This machete is gonna hang here just in case, but things are fine."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, so terrifying. So just an example of how scary... I mean, he's called Vlad the Impaler. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That had to come up for a reason.
Em Schulz: Just, just to give you an idea of who he is, there's, um, one example of where he invited, um, the people who overthrew his father, killed his brother, all that stuff. Um, he invites 200 of the men involved in that and their families to an Easter banquet. And during the banquet, he stabs all of the women and old people...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Impales them, and he forces all the men into enslavement. Um...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Just to avenge his father.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: Who, who, by the way, didn't fucking deserve it because he fucking left you for freedom.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Talk... I mean, you said daddy issues and it still rings true to me. I'm just saying.
Em Schulz: Hmm. In the coming years, he would continue on with this reputation. There's another rumor where he ate his dinner surrounded by the bodies of his victims that were still jerking around.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: One time, he invited, um, people without homes and a lot of poor people in his community, he invited them all over for a feast, locked them inside and burned the building down to the ground to solve poverty in his home.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Well, glad that it worked. Seems, seems like it worked well. Thank you for that.
Em Schulz: When conflict arose between Vlad and the Saxons, he set their towns on fire and had roughly 30,000 of their people impaled to death.
Christine Schiefer: 30,000?
Em Schulz: 30,000.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: He at this point was still just called Vlad Dracula or, um, Vlad III, but at this point, everyone is now calling him The Impaler or Vlad Tepes.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Um, in 1462, the pope, uh, I think Pope Pius II reported that Vlad killed 40,000 people in the towns around Transylvania. And in another battle, he allegedly impaled thousands of people for no reason but to scare the opposing troops. So they weren't even troops. He just killed thousands of innocents.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And then he displayed them together to make a forest of bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Eww. What a sicko.
Em Schulz: Um, it's also been said that, this is just a rumor, but it's said about him that he would, after killing people, would dip his bread in their blood for dinner and he would eat surrounded by them and just drink their blood.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's fucking disgusting. I know it might not even be true, but it's gross.
Em Schulz: In total, it's estimated that in his lifetime, he killed 80,000 people during his reign.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. Fuck.
Em Schulz: Um, this time period was during the printing revolution, which was the time right after the printing press was invented in 1440. And the printing revolution allowed written news and propaganda to spread throughout Europe like ever before.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: So... Like never before. So his, um... So people were writing pamphlets condemning his cruelty and talking in detail. I'm sure this is where like a lot of sensational news came out about him like drinking blood and shit.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Um, this plus the war draining his finances, people getting sick of his violence, he eventually loses power, ironically, to his brother who he trained beside his whole life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy. I mean, after all that, you still lose your seat to, to the brother.
Em Schulz: And you know he had the nerve to go, "Why?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. "Who? Me? And my zero tolerance for violence policy?"
Em Schulz: So his brother is known as Radu the Fair, which, by the way, he could be fucking awful and still be seen as fair compared...
Christine Schiefer: He could have killed 79,000 people and been the fair one. [chuckle] Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I wonder if his name was just sarcasm. It's like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's an ironic nickname.
Em Schulz: Like, "Between the two, I guess I'll go with him."
Christine Schiefer: I guess so.
Em Schulz: "He's so fair." Um, so I don't know the story here, but he was imprisoned at one point for 12 years. Um, this is Vlad. He was imprisoned for 12 years, then he's released and rejoins the military. He's fighting against the Ottoman Empire. I don't know why anyone like allowed him to do anything once he was no longer in power.
Christine Schiefer: Just... Yeah, just sit down.
Em Schulz: In 1476, uh, while in battle, he's defeated and beheaded. So full circle.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: In 1820, so this is like fucking 400 years later...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Time loop, or was it time leap...
Christine Schiefer: Jump?
Em Schulz: Time jump.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: There it is. Um, in 1820, a book is published called The Account of the Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia with various political observations relating to them, which included information on Vlad Tepes. It's the fucking thing where they just loved their...
Christine Schiefer: [snore] Oh, sorry, I fell asleep.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They just loved their fucking titles.
Christine Schiefer: God, they love the words, man.
Em Schulz: That's as long as a historian's thesis, I think. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, you think that was the entire thing.
Em Schulz: So, uh, this book came out 70 years later in 1890 when all your pictures started showing up.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say this is getting a little too close to home.
Em Schulz: In 1890, the author, Bram Stoker...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Uh, read the book on Vlad and found his inspiration for Dracula.
Christine Schiefer: A-ha!
Em Schulz: So he had actually read that in Hungarian, Dracul meant dragon, but I guess in Romanian, it actually means devil. So that's why he named his character Dracula.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's kind of fun. And I mean...
Em Schulz: In the worst way. [laughter] Yeah. Um, so I mean, they both, Vlad and his character Dracula both share the name Dracula.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, both have some devilish tendencies, both known to drink blood, both from Transylvania, both, you know... So it's...
Christine Schiefer: I'm getting it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was... It's not even like it was inspired by him. It feels like nearly based on a true story.
Christine Schiefer: Copy-paste. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, so Vlad, his bloodlust and the descriptions of Transylvania and the Carpathian Mountains, uh, obviously affected Stoker's writing. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, Bram did get a lot of his ideas for Dracula, not just from Vlad, but from Victorian vampire media, which needs to be my new hyper fixation. Because...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's my whole identity, though.
Em Schulz: Victor... Victorian vampire media, which apparently for decades at this point was already incredibly popular. I don't know what... I fucking hear about your stupid spaghetti westerns. I've never heard about Victorian vampire.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's so fucked.
Em Schulz: So, um, I guess up until Bram Stoker got involved, this uh, vampire media that was already really popular had a bit of a different take on vampires or whatever it is. But when Bram Stoker added Dracula to the mix, it was an iconic cultural reset.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, he based his book entirely on Vlad, uh, or, or him, him basing his book entirely on Vlad is often an exaggeration to the truth, when really at least half of the inspiration was from earlier vampire media. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so he didn't... Yeah. Okay. I get it.
Em Schulz: But the other 50% was all fucking Vlad the Impaler.
Christine Schiefer: All Vlad. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, um, Dracula, this is where I give you a little thing about him, he had a castle... I'm saying it right. Carpathian Mountains?
Christine Schiefer: I think so, yeah. Carpathian.
Em Schulz: He had a castle on a cliff, uh, on, on a cliff side in the Carpathian Mountains and its description in the book is very identical to the real Bran Castle in Romania.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: And I think I'm saying Bran Castle, right? I don't know if it's Bran Castle. I'm getting...
Christine Schiefer: How do you spell it?
Em Schulz: B-R-A-N, like Bran.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I think I am always confused by it 'cause of Bram Stoker and Bran Castle.
Em Schulz: I thought the same thing because I always... In my brain, I always thought they named a castle after Bram Stoker.
Christine Schiefer: I did too! [laughter]
Em Schulz: But like, what are the odds that Bram Stoker...
Christine Schiefer: It's kind of weird there's one letter off. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And really, it's not even one letter. It's like one extra loop on a letter.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's not even a full letter. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, but so yeah, I always thought it was called the Bram Castle because it was Dracula's Castle written after Bram Stoker. Like that's what I thought.
Christine Schiefer: I did too. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. So... And I hope I'm saying that right. Again, two different YouTube videos will be two different things. I'm panicking. I don't know what I'm doing with pronunciation. Um, but yeah, that's what I thought. But apparently, Bram Stoker wrote about Bran Castle.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, and they were not affiliated before that. So, um... As far as I know. But Bram, Bram Stoker, he never actually visited Transylvania, so he could have never seen that castle himself. So a lot of people think it's just a coincidence that he perfectly resembled the castle in his book. Other people say he could have just seen a picture of it and just knew how to describe it well.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, like how many... Was it like, oh, it's like made of stone? Or was it like, there are this many walls facing the east, facing... Like 'cause it has a super...
Em Schulz: It was a little... It, it was a little weirdly identical.
Christine Schiefer: Specific? Oh.
Em Schulz: Even like all the way to like, it's sitting on a cliff side in these mountains and like...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Yeah, maybe he just like knew about it.
Em Schulz: Right? I feel like if you were all about...
Christine Schiefer: Or have heard about it.
Em Schulz: Victorian vampire media, someone might have written about a castle, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, or put up... If they had pictures of these random cowboy children, I'm sure they had pictures of this castle somewhere you could look up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's called a magazine. Ever heard of it? So I...
Christine Schiefer: It's called a Spirit Halloween catalog. Ever heard of it?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So a lot of people are like, "Did you write about this castle specifically, or does there just happen to be one that exists that magically matches your description of where Dracula would live?"
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Right.
Em Schulz: Um, so either way, Bran Castle ended up being known as like Dracula's castle and Dracula's home because the description was so weirdly on-point with what Bram Stoker wrote about.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Um, also, interestingly, there is evidence that... It's very minimal, but there is some evidence that can be very quickly blown out of proportion to suggest that Vlad the Impaler actually did stay in Bran Castle at some point.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which adds a connection to the fact that the inspiration for Dracula and the inspiration for Dracula's castle actually did have a connection in real life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, some people say that he was imprisoned there when he was gone for 12 years. Um, we don't totally know...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: If that's true. It's just weird that like a person he was talking about and a castle he ended up describing actually were a part of each other's lives.
Christine Schiefer: Happened to be, yeah, connected.
Em Schulz: Um, so Bran Castle has now just become known as Dracula's castle. They've really fucking owned it.
Christine Schiefer: Really? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Every year, apparently there are 800,000 annual visitors to this castle. And gift shops just sell out all the time. They're a vampire merchandise. They like fucking owned it. So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, imagine that gift shop. You know, you and I would go ham in that thing.
Em Schulz: Fucking bonkers. It'd be Crazy.
Christine Schiefer: We would lose our minds.
Em Schulz: Our bags would need bags.
Christine Schiefer: We... Yeah. [laughter] I need a bag for my bag, please.
Em Schulz: So Bran Castle is, um... And, oh God, I really feel like it might be Bran Castle. It's said to be one of the most haunted castles in the world. It was built all the way in the late 1300s. And it was actually built on the former border of Transylvania and Wallachia.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And in 1920, um, it was offered to Romania's Queen Marie as one of her properties.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And she fell in love with the castle and had it restored and modernized, which like maybe means it had light bulbs. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Modernized. [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: She... It did have an elevator. So she did put a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well, I mean, that's pretty modern, I would say. We still have those.
Em Schulz: She put an elevator in. And it's so wild that like... I mean, we're really doing a lot of time leaps here, time jumps, but like for it to be built in the 1300s and now we're talking about someone living there within the last 100 years is wild.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It is trippy to think about.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So Queen Marie, she fell in love with it. She restored it, put in an elevator. And it was her favorite residence. But when she died in 1938, her body was buried... Her body was buried with the Romanian monarchy, but her heart ultimately was interred in a crypt at this castle.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] No way.
Em Schulz: And ever since, uh, that happened, people have claimed to see the queen walking the castle grounds, especially in the gardens and stables that she designed herself.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. And in the elevator, she's like, "Weee!"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Soldiers are also seen haunting the castle, some in 13th century military uniforms.
Christine Schiefer: That would scare the shit out of me. Like anytime...
Em Schulz: I can't even process that.
Christine Schiefer: I hear about civil war soldiers in your bedroom or like, uh, any sort of soldier with like a weapon, uh, like that would scare the absolute bejesus outta me.
Em Schulz: But also like, what does a weapon look like in 13th century military? Like is it an axe? Like, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Ding-dong. I just went to, uh, Germany and saw some medieval castles, so I could tell you, uh, a lot of sharp knife-like objects that were basically like...
Em Schulz: Impaling, some would say.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like knives attached to knives attached to knives. Uh, like...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a knife for your horse. Like a knife for your...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like just knives everywhere. So scary.
Em Schulz: That was all they had.
Christine Schiefer: Sickles... Ugh.
Em Schulz: When did guns...
Christine Schiefer: Don't answer that.
Em Schulz: Become guns? Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean I assume the Winchester rifle. Isn't that when it kind of...
Em Schulz: I guess so. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think so. I don't know. But like when I think of like civil war soldiers, to me, that's like, or revolutionary war soldiers, that's the oldest soldier that exists, but no, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: They're centuries more than that. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So 13th century uniforms, I can't even process. So there are ghosts that look... There are ghost soldiers around the castle in those uniforms, and talk about range because the soldiers here are either in 13th century uniforms or go all the way up to World War II uniforms.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. So some of them are like, "Wait, what are you wearing?"
Em Schulz: Like, "Are we even in the same military?" Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Who are you... What are you wearing? I'm confused. What is that sharp knife for your horse?"
Em Schulz: "What is that weird ballistic handheld you've got going on?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "What are you holding?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sure they had some sort of gun, but nothing like World War II. So...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: World War II soldiers are seen here too because when the Queen loved this place so much, her daughter ended up building a military hospital here during World War II.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So there's also a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Dead military up through the 1940. So...
Christine Schiefer: I maintain that like uh, a hospital is probably one of the more haunted, like naturally haunted places 'cause like...
Em Schulz: I think so too.
Christine Schiefer: Think about how much pain and like fear... Ooh.
Em Schulz: I always think it's hospitals, jails and whatever. I mean, they're still technically hospitals, but specifically like mental facility...
Christine Schiefer: Asylums. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, hospitals and jails are just... 'Cause there's just en masse despair, [laughter] you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or orphanages or... Ooh.
Em Schulz: Oh. Yowza.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Many peasants are also seen here and they assume that they're peasants based on how they're dressed, but it's... I guess a previous ruler also committed similar crimes here like Vlad the Impaler did and just like killed a bunch of the poor here. Um, these spirits are also seen walking around. They're wearing medieval clothing and they look shell-shocked, which terrifies me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's not good.
Em Schulz: They're like they look like they're traumatized. Well, I'm looking at a fucking ghost that's traumatized. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What about me, ghost? What about my feelings?
Em Schulz: Yeah. God damn it. My mother is feeling shout today, too. I've been getting phone calls this whole time from all my family members. Everyone can relax. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Everyone... [laughter] Em is just collecting uh, a wall of all of your photographs.
Em Schulz: Talk about um, en masse despair. What is going on? Everyone's just...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Now you're making me nervous though, like...
Em Schulz: No. I, I, I don't know what they want, but I'm sure it's just wanting to talk. My mom's favorite thing is to talk to me in the middle of the day and be like, "Oh, what are you doing?" and I'll go, "I'm working," and then she goes, "Oh, great. So anyway... " And then she talks for an hour and a half.
Christine Schiefer: "So, so anyway, let me tell you about me." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, I'm busy. Um, and then the best part is always in that phone call, she'll complain about how her mom will call her while she's working and like doesn't get the hint that she's working.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that amazing? You're like...
Em Schulz: I know. It's probably the meanest grunt I ever make, but it's in every phone call.
Christine Schiefer: You're like seeing it in action, like...
Em Schulz: And I go, "Uh-huh. Annoying, isn't it?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Interesting development, Mother."
Em Schulz: If history repeats itself, I'm already sorry to my future kids 'cause I'll definitely be calling you at 11:00 in the morning on a Wednesday and wondering what you're up to.
Christine Schiefer: At your White House internship being like, "Hello."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, okay. So where were we? Oh yes, despair. So at the same time, people not only see ghosts that look shell-shocked, which we didn't even take enough time to really appreciate that, that's terrifying.
Christine Schiefer: It's upsetting. It is.
Em Schulz: Um, spirits are seen walking around. They uh... People sense a, an overwhelming feeling of sorrow within the castle. And some of the emotions are so strong that people have actually reported cases of mild possession...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Because the feelings are so overwhelming, it seems to control them.
Christine Schiefer: That's really sad because like as someone who went through a really bad depression, like that is what it... Like it feels like it, you have no control over it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I think... That to me, that's one of the scarier things when you're at a haunted place that you can be overcome with like the despair, the emotions that they felt because it's like, how, how do you tell that that's not just me versus like I'm feeling something that doesn't belong to me? Like that's a scary gap. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I... And I, I'm sure there's other people out there who struggle more with uh, mental health than I do, but when it, when it happens to me in places where I feel something, usually I have like a pretty good reason for why my feelings would shift like that. And so if it happens out of nowhere, all of a sudden I'm like, "Something's happening to my body that I'm not asking for."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You can like backtrack and be like, "What triggered this?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. I feel, I feel worse for people who visit these places that are like, can much more gradually slip into things on their own and they can't tell the difference.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: They don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like... I mean, I don't know. I think I would struggle with that, differentiate what's my feeling versus... I don't know. That'd be hard.
Em Schulz: I very rarely feel anger, so in moments where I've been in a haunted place and I felt anger, I've known it wasn't mine. 'Cause I'm like, "What the fuck... "
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: I'm like, "What the fuck do I have to be mad about right now?"
Christine Schiefer: "It can't be Christine stomping around and like ruining all the audio. I'm sure it's not that."
Em Schulz: Well, I will notice it's more like being irritated quicker, but like I have to stop and be like, "Would I usually behave this way?" But also... But, but there's sometimes like where there might be in this situation, something so powerful, it doesn't even allow you to have that filter, right? Like, so...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Where you're just taken over by it without the intellectual like parsing it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You can't rationalize it. Yeah. Um in this castle, there were once secret passageways, but they have been found. And so one of them was so well-hidden, it wasn't even discovered until this century.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I love shit like that.
Em Schulz: And this castle was built in the 1300. So I mean, it feels like a Goosebumps movie to me. I'm like, imagine if you actually found a several centuries old secret passageway...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Imagine...
Em Schulz: In a haunted castle.
Christine Schiefer: You lean on a stone fireplace and you hear a rumbling and uh... I mean it's all our dreams. I feel like it's all millennials' dreams to find a secret passageway.
Em Schulz: It's all or dreams. But also like...
Christine Schiefer: It's... Yeah.
Em Schulz: The more impressive part is that if there was a mechanism making this door open and close, how is it still working after 1300 years?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that is sorcery of some kind. It has to be.
Em Schulz: It wasn't even blocked by spider webs over the centuries? Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, but in here, even though it's cool, people report the most sinister presence and feel something being... Something staring at them, stalking them. It feels truly evil, this thing in this tunnel.
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: Which like... Maybe it's like, close the door again. Like it's been... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. I was just thinking like, is this one of those Dybbuk box situations again where it's like, well, now you've opened it, good luck. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, in this area, paranormal investigators have claimed that they have had things like rocks thrown at their heads. They've seen orbs. They've seen green glowing mists. Um, and people have also seen shadow figures walking through doors. They've seen people appear and disappear in the halls. And people have heard a lot of voices talking to them. So mainly, there are, there are ghosts of soldiers, maids, cooks, guards, families, merchants, mercenaries, warlords and royalty all said to appear here.
Christine Schiefer: Just main... That's just the main ones.
Em Schulz: Just the main ones.
Christine Schiefer: All 600 of them? Okay, got it.
Em Schulz: Just the main ones. Um however, Vlad the Impaler himself, because he was rumored to have appeared here at some point, uh, while alive, um, his ghost does not seem to be in the castle. So...
Christine Schiefer: It's probably, it's probably for the best.
Em Schulz: It is a nice touch that maybe he's crossed paths with this castle if they both inspired Dracula, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, Vlad the Impaler himself was not ever seen here in spirit form.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'll be honest, that kind of to me... I know that this is kind of like maybe backwards thinking, but to me, I find that validating...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: About ghosts. 'Cause I'm like, well, wouldn't you...
Em Schulz: Someone would make it up.
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't people invent that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like part of the lore. So I feel like it's kind of validating to be like, "Oh, the most famous one has actually not been spotted here." I don't know.
Em Schulz: Although I would argue, who the fuck is this evil one in the secret passageways? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And you said warlords and I'm like, well, what is a warlord if not an impaler who kills...
Em Schulz: Vlad the Impaler.
Christine Schiefer: 80,000 people? [laughter]
Em Schulz: So apparently, no one, I guess, has, you know, heard specifically that it was him, but there have been some um, some very few examples where usually I'm all for whatever evidence people are finding in ghost hunting, but I don't, I don't know them, I don't know if it's been stretched to fit a narrative, but some people have said with dowsing rods, they've been able to make contact with Vlad the Impaler, which by the fucking way, why would you?
Christine Schiefer: Don't do that. I'm, I'm like looking at my dowsing rods now, like you know me and I push all these boundaries, that's when I'd be like, "No, thanks. No, thank you."
Em Schulz: Like I can appreciate wanting to go ghost hunting and getting answers, but like there's a few people, as a ghost hunter myself, I don't really have an interest in contacting. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: One of them is the devil, the other is Vlad the Impaler. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Zozo, uh, Vlad, Beelzebub...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Pazuzu... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Zuzu... Yeah. I got a handful, but uh... And it's like, oh, you want answers? Well, he's just gonna tell you exactly what you think right? Like he's gonna say, "I loved murdering people." Like, what, what answer is that?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It... He's clearly a messed-up dude. I don't know.
Em Schulz: So um, anyway, some people have said that they made contact with Vlad, and he confirmed the rumor that he was imprisoned here, but this was also very few people have found this. And I would argue a spirit that, with that much energy, with that dark of energy would be coming around more often. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, I don't know. I'm not an expert. That's just my, my hunch. So uh, if you do for some reason want to encounter Vlad the Impaler's ghost with uh, more of a likeliness that he'll be there, he's allegedly often in Boldu Forest at the Witches' Pond. Love that he's at a Witches' Pond.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It's said that this is the spot where he was beheaded. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Ohh, my.
Em Schulz: And it's an important, it's an important pond today for a lot of witches. It's said to have um, incredibly powerful water, both good and bad. So it helps in both sides of spell-casting. It can make items disappear. Sometimes it's used for healing. But the darkness to it also keeps animals from drinking out of it no matter what. No matter how thirsty they are, they refuse to drink from it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. That's scary.
Em Schulz: There's a weird rumor that if someone is pregnant and they don't want the baby, if you bathe here, all of a sudden the pregnancy will disappear. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Eeeh.
Em Schulz: I don't wanna know more details than that, but apparently that's the rumor of the Witches' Pond. So it feels perfectly dark for Vlad the Impaler to be hanging around there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. It sounds like he would hang around there. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and this is where most people see his spirit pacing the banks for eternity. So that is Vlad the Impaler, Bran Castle, Bran Castle.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: There you have it.
Christine Schiefer: I always forget when you're telling me stories that at the end, there are ghosts. So when you start with the ghost, I'm like, "Oh my God, there's ghost too? This is crazy!"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I felt bad 'cause with everything I was saying at first, I was like, "This is a Christine story for sure," and I was... Even when I was...
Christine Schiefer: No, you nailed it.
Em Schulz: Reading through the notes, I was, I was like, "Does this get haunted?" Like, what, where...
Christine Schiefer: No, like you are good. You nailed it 'cause like with the... I mean, I feel like all of these stories need the history lesson behind it, even though we don't necessarily like say it's a history story, but...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: I also don't usually like history, but I love drama, so...
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's... Yeah, I feel like we just need to reframe history. You know what I mean? 'Cause I, I don't know if I was telling... Was I telling you recently, maybe it was on the podcast, like I've realized I like history a lot? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I like it when it's told to me the right way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I didn't know that about myself, but I'm like, "Oh, my favorite part of like any ghost tour and stuff is like learning about all the different buildings and old, you know... " I don't know. I've learned that I really like history, which I think is something that um... My history teacher from... My AP Euro teacher is like pulling her hair out like, "Are you fucking kidding me? Now you like history?" Um...
Em Schulz: I know. I, I hated history. I still really don't like history unless it's told to me like gossip. Like if it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, that must be the key. Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I'm kinda with you on that. I just love, I just love to hear about it. I don't know. I wanna know the story about these people in my photographs. I don't know. Fascinating. Um, well, good job, Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: And since you don't know what to expect, I'll tell you, I have a story for you too. Surprise!
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I know. I have the story today of Martha Moxley.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know this, you know this one?
Em Schulz: Mm-mm. No.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So this was one that I sort of knew about just because it, it's a very famous true crime story, but I didn't know all the details. So I went into kind of a little rabbit hole with it. Um, so let me tell you, it uh, takes place in 1975, and the young woman in our story, the girl, 15-year-old Martha Moxley, she lived in Belle Haven, which is a private and exclusive neighborhood in Greenwich, Connecticut, AKA one of the most, [chuckle] most richest, one of the wealthiest uh, areas in the country. And she was in an exclusive neighborhood in Greenwich, so like very, very exclusive. Right?
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's a very wealthy place, and of course, it's one of those towns where people feel like they are safe and secure and know everything about their neighbors and nothing could go wrong.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And you know, we're talking in the 1970s. Like this is pre all the like safety protocols and precautions we take today. So of course, tragedy will come soon. So Martha had just moved to this neighborhood a year prior with her parents, Dorothy and David, and her brother, John. Belle Haven was an insular community and was a little introverted. It was kind of like old money style, like people weren't flaunting their wealth. Um, but Martha, when she moved in, was kind of like a breath of fresh air for the people who lived there. She was sort of a California girl. Um, she was bubbly and bright. Uh, people described her as being very girl next door. She had like a wonderful personality. She was blonde and bubbly. Uh, one of her peers said in an interview that she made you feel like you were the center of the world. She just kinda showed up and like brought a ray of sunshine uh, into people's lives.
Em Schulz: Lit up a room.
Christine Schiefer: Lit up a room. People gravitated toward her, especially boys.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. Trouble.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Nothing good happens there. So despite moving across the country at such a pivotal age, age 15 or 14, I guess, Martha thrived immediately in her new home. She was even voted most popular girl at Western Junior High School, which...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: I'm already scared of her and I'm in my 30s. Um...
Em Schulz: And the power that she holds to be new there...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And already do that.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, to, to move to a new school and be all of a sudden the most popular, pretty impressive, especially in like a rich, Richie Rich neighborhood, you know.
Em Schulz: It had to have been a private school of like 10 people or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] That's probably true, including her brother. So yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I guess that's probably true. Um, her brother John, speaking of him, told CNN Martha was a person who had everything in the world going for her. She was friendly. She was athletic. She was talented in the arts. Everything seemed to come very easily to Martha. She was very easy to get along with, upbeat, friendly, the kind of kid you'd like to be around. And what she liked to do outside of hanging with her friends was spend time with her family and her cat, Tiger. She also liked hanging out with some of the neighborhood kids and they got up to the usual neighborhood antics, teenage mischief, drinking beer, smoking cigarettes. Um, and so she did it a little bit of that as well. She spent the summer of 1975 hanging out at the pool and tennis courts at the Belle Haven Country Club with wealthy friends who went to elite private schools. So she was kind of thrown into this like, you know...
Em Schulz: Gossip Girl.
Christine Schiefer: Lavish... Yeah, a Gossip Girl-esque environment. And a couple of those friends were called the Skakel boys.
Em Schulz: Ugh. I hate them. I'm so scared of them.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know them?
Em Schulz: No, but they just sound... Like they have a group name. What are you talking about? I'd be so nervous around them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's just their last name. They're two brothers, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Named Skakel brothers and they...
Em Schulz: You made it sound like they had a, like their own little gang.
Christine Schiefer: The Skakel boys.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The skater Skakels... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like if I ever met a guy and he was like, "I'm in band. We're called The Skakel Boys," I would immediately be inferior. I'd be like... [chuckle] At 14 years old...
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like, "You're the most popular kid at Western Junior High School."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh... Yeah. So the Skakel boys was not a band, maybe it was, but it was mostly just the family across the street. So their mother, Anne Skakel, had died two years prior of cancer. So she left behind her husband, Rushton Skakel. Is that not the most like wealthy country club name? Rushton. Uh...
Em Schulz: Like he was meant to sign like checks, check books, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, that's, that's... He's good at that. He's got the wrist strength, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so she left behind her husband Rushton and and their seven children.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So Rushton was tremendously wealthy, as you can probably guess. He had inherited a mining fortune. And his family also had powerful connections and that's because they were cousins of the Kennedys.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Big name. Martha Moxley became fast friends with two of the Skakel boys, 15-year-old Michael Skakel and 17-year-old Tom Skakel. However, she had her own issues with them. They didn't always get along. They were... The boys were pretty rambunctious. And uh, Martha... One of Martha's friends was, refused to even hang out with them, was like, these two boys are just too much. Um, some described them as having explosive tempers. Uh, Michael and Tom, who were two years apart, 15 and 17 at the time, they were constantly in competition.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it was kind of the... Reminds me of your Vlad and his brother's story. Like they're constantly kind of pitting against each other. And...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The younger brother always was trying to, you know, get what his older brother was getting and that was everything from sports to girls, uh, and ultimately Martha, allegedly. [laughter] So Rushton Skakel, the dad, traveled often, and so he kind of just let the kids live like Lord of the Flies style, but super rich. Like he just left them at home to fend for themselves. And...
Em Schulz: That sounds terrifying. Just seven...
Christine Schiefer: Terrible.
Em Schulz: Seven even rich kids raising themselves.
Christine Schiefer: In a, in a mansion with like no consequences. Like of course, things were gonna go very wrong. There was a lot of partying um, and Michael, who was 13, allegedly, was already a severe alcoholic by the time he was 13 years old.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Like he had developed alcoholism as a child and drank heavily regularly.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: This really bothered Martha. Uh, one night after spending time with Michael, she actually wrote in her diary, quote, "Michael was so totally out of it that he was being a real ass. He kept telling me I was leading Tom," his older brother, "on. Michael jumps to conclusions. I really have to stop going over there." And let's all take this moment to appreciate the...
Em Schulz: Awareness?
Christine Schiefer: Foreboding nature of this sentence. What did you say?
Em Schulz: The awareness of like something is going on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, definitely the awareness. Definitely the awareness and like also foreshadowing, you know. It's a little bit like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. "I should not go there." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Trust your gut, you know, but like you're also 15, so it's not on you...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: You know. But it's just sad to see that she already had that kind of inkling. So the entry referenced Tom's... This is the older brother who's 17. Tom's feelings for Martha. According to friends, most boys who knew Martha had a crush on her. So Tom wasn't really any different. Um, and in her diary, she also wrote, "Went driving in Tom's car and I was practically sitting on Tom's lap. He kept putting his hand on my knee." In the fall of 1975, she wrote another entry. "I went to a party. Tom S was being an ass. At the dance, he kept putting his arm around me and making moves." Martha also wrote in a letter to a friend that she was not interested in Tom, but it seemed like Tom's younger brother Michael was very insecure about this and felt like she was leading his older brother on uh, and that really bothered him.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So although Martha's diary makes her sound wary of Tom's affection and Michael's behavior, she did continue hanging out with them and like... You can't blame her. They live across the street. They're having fun parties. Like, you know, you're 15, you're like, well, it's not, nothing serious. Like they can just be annoying, you know, or...
Em Schulz: Yeah, definitely.
Christine Schiefer: They could be an ass, but they're 16-year-old boys. Like, of course, they can. So you know, there's a sense of security, I imagine, hanging out like on your own street with kids your age. Like I don't think that she knew how drastic the fear really should have been.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On October 30th... So this is sort of like uh, a Halloween story in a way, because Martha went over to...
Em Schulz: It's mischief night.
Christine Schiefer: It is. Exactly, exactly. Martha went over to the Skakel house to hang out with the boys and their mutual friends and hang out for mischief night, get together for mischief night.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Basically, they would run around the neighborhood, they would throw toilet paper in, in neighbors' trees, you know, the usual teenage antics before Halloween. Um, I don't know whether cabbages were part of the equation. I feel like, it can be...
Em Schulz: Maybe painted in gold uh, at this family, at this house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Right there, like gold leaf cabbages. Um, and so you know, they're just doing their typical teenage Halloween antics. Rushton was away on a hunting trip, of course. Uh...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: I imagine he had some quail he was after. I don't know.
Em Schulz: A bald eagle or something.
Christine Schiefer: A bald eagle [laughter] to, to mount above his fireplace, perhaps. Uh, so everyone was gathering at the Skakel house, unsupervised, unsurprisingly. At 9:00 PM, Martha and some of the Skakel boys piled into the front seat of the Skakel's car to listen to music. Martha sat in the front seat between Tom and Michael, the brothers who were vying for her attention.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it was shortly after that, she was sitting between the two brothers, and then their brother said, "Oh, we need to use the car. We have to go to our cousin's house to watch the US premiere of Monty Python's Flying Circus," um, which is like, wow, what a time capsule that is.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, [laughter] so they had to get home stat to uh, to watch the premiere. So this is where the stories get a little muddy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Whatever happened from 9:30 PM onward that night is subject to debate among everyone involved, and pretty much everyone who knows anything about the case. The only thing we are certain of is that Martha never made it home that night. By 1:00 AM, Martha's mom, Dorothy was very worried. Um, it wasn't like her to stay out late. Uh, Dorothy notified the police and started calling Martha's friends' houses, but nobody had seen her or knew where she was. In the morning, Dorothy walked across the street to the Skakel house and Michael opened the door. Dorothy kinda took a look at him and was like, "Man, he looks hung over. He looks exhausted. He looks like... " Uh, not good. He, he wasn't in good shape. And she asked if Martha was there and he said, "No, she's not here." So she's getting more and more upset, worried. Some people in the neighborhood start canvasing around, looking for Martha. They're, they're thinking, "Well, she probably just stayed the night at a friend's, had a few too many beers and forgot to tell her mom where she was."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So the friends are going around like looking for Martha, and it was around noon when one of Martha's friends made a horrible discovery. And this was right at the edge of Martha's and her family's, the Moxley's property. Martha was found dead, lying beneath a pine tree at the back of her family's yard.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And the scene was absolutely gruesome. Someone had clubbed and stabbed Martha to death.
Em Schulz: Mmph.
Christine Schiefer: The blows were all to her head, and the sheer violence of the attack made it seem, as we've noted uh, on, in several cases, very personal...
Em Schulz: Very personal.
Christine Schiefer: Very emotional, yeah, very passionate. And there was also a trail in the grass from where she had been dragged sort of into the...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Line of the woods, and then just left.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Which just, something about that is also so sinister. Police followed a trail of blood to a bigger pool of blood near the Moxley's driveway, and there, they discovered the murder weapon, which was the shaft of a golf club.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And this is pretty upsetting. Um, the golf club had been used to beat Martha until the club itself broke...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: As in the metal part snapped or broke apart where the joint is.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And uh, then whoever had attacked her had taken that jagged metal piece and stabbed it into her throat.
Em Schulz: Oh! Oh my God. I keep saying oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's heinous. I mean, it's, it's like so brutal. And an investigator described it as a maniacal attack that should have stopped but didn't. And I, I was watching a documentary where they kind of did like a vague recreation, a recreation of it. Recreation? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Recreation?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And the way they showed it kind of put it in a perspective, to me, where, that I hadn't really thought of. It was like somebody must have hit her from the back just out of anger, right, like an initial blow out of anger, and then she had probably fallen unconscious or otherwise onto the ground, and then they had made... They had like, uh, a forked road in front of them. Like they either get the fuck out of there or they like finished the job, so to speak, and they clearly went the other direction. Um...
Em Schulz: And was the... Sorry. Was the first hit, could it have been accidental where like they were fucking around with golf clubs and it just like hit her?
Christine Schiefer: No. I think um, they, they expected from the beginning it was...
Em Schulz: It was... The first hit was intentional.
Christine Schiefer: Out of anger. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Probably like a rage. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So police determined that Martha had been murdered between 9:30 PM and 10:00 PM the night before, which gave them a pretty concise pool of suspects 'cause everyone knew what she had been doing the night before. So they tried to put together a timeline of that night to figure out who was last seen with Martha. And some friends told police that Martha and Tom, the 17-year-old brother, had been flirting and the friends felt a little awkward and embarrassed, so they left because they were like, "We were just watching them like kind of be flirty and like we were like... "
Em Schulz: Like this, this was too hot and heavy.
Christine Schiefer: Gross. Yeah. They're like, "Oh, we don't need those cooties, so... "
Em Schulz: I had that, I had that happen to two people... Sorry, I know we're in the middle of like uh, a dark moment, but...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, please. I'd love to take a break.
Em Schulz: I do wanna... I do wanna say in um, at like 14 or 15, it was like the year when everyone was like kinda starting to make out and half the people hadn't.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Everyone but me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Everyone but me. I had a, I had a bunch of my friends come over, there was like four of them, and two of them were very hot and heavy and into each other, I remember, like, I think doing hand stuff in the room with the rest of us there. And the other... But they were in my house. Like I didn't... And I was 14...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, what do you even do? I would have been so wigged out. I don't know what I would've done.
Em Schulz: It wasn't like I could leave, but I also, I didn't have enough um, like you know, gall to say, "Get out," or "Go away."
Christine Schiefer: "Eww, get out." [laughter]
Em Schulz: But also they're 14, so like it's not like they could drive home. Like I'd still have to awkwardly hang out with them until their parents pick them up.
Christine Schiefer: Wait for your mom to come. Yeah. I feel like I would just like text my mom and be like, "Help!"
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Make some bagel bites and call us from upstairs." I don't know. I like am such a...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: But the other, the other, the other...
Christine Schiefer: Sheltered child.
Em Schulz: The other three of us were just watching. 'Cause we like... Like you couldn't take your eyes off of it. It was like, it was like a train wreck. But it was like, we were just watching like something like stupid on TV. Like we were...
Christine Schiefer: It's Monty Python's Flying Circus. It's always, A...
Em Schulz: Something similar.
Christine Schiefer: Watching the stupidest things. Like I remember the first time I like made out with somebody, it was, I told this story, but Donnie Darko, and like every time I think about Donnie Darko, I'm like, "Oh God, that was so embarrassing." But like you think back and it's like, we just have no fucking shame like at that when you're like in that zone or whatever as like a teenager, like, I mean, again, I didn't...
Em Schulz: Even through college, I, uh, none of us really had a lot of shame. I, I saw a lot, quite a lot of stuff. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was like such a lack... It's kinda like, "Well, either stay here and watch or go upstairs." [laughter] I don't know.
Em Schulz: There was um...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like there's a lack of...
Em Schulz: We had...
Christine Schiefer: You just throw your etiquette out the window. You're like, "Well, I wanna make out, so I'm gonna do it."
Em Schulz: We, we were in college, we were all staying in a house, and like there were already too many people for rooms, and so a lot of people just stayed on the floor. For some reason, I needed a bed. I think like my, my back was hurting or something.
Christine Schiefer: You're already an old man.
Em Schulz: I, um... But my... Sorry, girl, my friend Brandy was like in the middle of hooking up with somebody and she was using my bed for it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: It's... I just walked in and I laid down in the middle of them, [laughter] just...
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "Oh, let me make myself comfortable. My sciatica's really acting up."
Em Schulz: It... I... There was... I think I was just so tired 'cause I was trying to hold out and wait for them to be finished before I use the room.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you gave them their time and space.
Em Schulz: And they were taking too damn long and I was... And I just walked in and they were in the middle of stuff and I was like, "You can keep going. I don't even care. I'm just... I just have to go to bed."
Christine Schiefer: "Give me two feet of space to wedge myself in. [laughter] I'll put my earplugs in. I'll put my earphones in."
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was a... It, it was a lawless land between like 14-24. It was...
Christine Schiefer: That's a good word for it. It felt lawless. And like my, my experiences... Again, I was kinda sheltered, so I didn't really have any of that till I was like in my 20, like early 20s, I would say, or like, you know, college, post-college. But like I remember those feelings of like, "Well, I did that in front of people that... "
Em Schulz: I mean, we had... My, my basement was like the hook-up pad for a long time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, Em. It's like it all started when you were 13 and they were like, "I know the best place to make out. It's Em's house. 'Cause everyone else just sits there quietly."
Em Schulz: We literally had a mattress that like was known in my...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] No.
Em Schulz: Like I don't think there's a person in my friend group that, that didn't hook up on the mattress.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so wild to me because like you always say like you weren't doing that kind of thing. I know like there were...
Em Schulz: I was surrounded by people who were willing to do it publicly. That's all. Like we...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's so amazing 'cause I'm like, if I... I would've been like, "Get the... Yo, I don't wanna be part of that. That makes me uncomfortable." But I like that you were just like, "Listen, you guys do you." That's very, um...
Em Schulz: It was very um...
Christine Schiefer: Open.
Em Schulz: I, I... It's not like I wanted that, to be clear, but uh, it was also, again, a... We had a... Like there were times when like we were too young to drive, but someone would bring someone over and they weren't at their house and they were just... They just started hooking up and everyone else was falling asleep. We would wake up to hearing stuff and I was like, "Oh God."
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: But that, that mattress became pretty notorious. We ended up having to, I think, burn it. It was...
Christine Schiefer: I would, I would think that's the only way.
Em Schulz: I could... Like it was a wild time. So I, I um, I understand the, you know, just getting hot and heavy and in the moment and maybe there's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: A movie that's intentionally bad, so neither of you have to focus and then it just...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: It happens.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like an excuse to like all sit together on a couch and... Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And, and I also get the feeling um... And I, I imagine that was also hard, not to immediately shift into this horrible thing again, but like I imagine that was hard for her friends to the next day have to come to terms with, "Oh, I left her there with somebody."
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh God, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause like, they said, "Oh, we just felt really uncomfortable. They were being super flirty." And these, these kids are like 15 years old, you know. So I imagine some of them were like... I mean, she's the cool popular girl at school, but like awkward people like me would have been like, "I'm out of here," and then that feeling of like, "Oh, shit, should I have stayed with her?"
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: And other people like me would have been like, "Okay girl, do you. I'm gonna leave to give you privacy and like... "
Christine Schiefer: "To give you space." Exactly.
Em Schulz: So it wouldn't have occurred to anybody to like get her out of there. She looked like she was having a fine time.
Christine Schiefer: And, and they know him too. It's not like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Oh, we don't know who she's with it." It's not, it's not a stranger. Um, and so her friends kind of admitted like, "Yeah, we... They were getting a little flirty and hot and heavy, and we felt awkward, so we left them alone." And that essentially meant, to police at least, that Tom, the older brother, was probably the last person to see Martha alive. So you know, a pretty strong place to start.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And at first, Rushton, uh, the dad, was pretty cooperative with police. He allowed them to canvas his property and you know, look around for any sign of what might have happened. And while they are canvasing his property, they find a matching golf club that used to belong to Anne Skakel, the late Anne Skakel who had died a few years earlier.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it was one of the families' golf clubs from their set. And so they did determine that the club used to kill Martha came from the same set. And I, uh, I, I think I forgot to add this later, so I'll say it now just in case I forget, but the handle of the golf club has never been found.
Em Schulz: Wow. Still?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, still to this day.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So, somebody must have hidden it presumably to hide fingerprints or what have you.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Tom, of course, became a key suspect at this point, and police questioned him on the timeline of that night. And this is what he told police. He said Martha left at 9:30 PM and he went inside to write a paper for school about Abraham Lincoln.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And to that, I say likely story on mischief night when you're all TP-ing each other's houses and heading home to watch Monty Python, you're telling me you went home and wrote a paper about Abraham Lincoln?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Okay. Uh, and you said at 10:00 PM, he was watching TV with this guy, Ken Littleton. Ken Littleton, or Kenneth, was actually the Skakel's new live-in tutor who had moved in that day. So this guy moves in and the next day police are at the house like, "Someone was just murdered and we think you might have... Like provide a timeline of that night." Like I imagine you're like, "I got this cushy tutoring gig in this like wealthy suburb," and now all of a sudden you're like at the center of this crazy murder situation.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And there was definitely some weirdness about Ken that they go over in a few of the documentaries, but it seems a little bit like red herring stuff. I don't, I don't think he was ever seriously a suspect? Um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not 100% sure. Um, he was never a suspect in the eyes of the police at least. So he said Tom seemed totally normal when they were watching TV together. And so it was hard for police to kind of wrap their heads around like, "Well, okay, if he's home watching TV and he had just committed this like brutal murder, it doesn't really match up." Like Tom... Or I'm sorry. Ken would have sensed something was up if he walked in, like having just murdered his friend.
Em Schulz: Right. The... I feel like even if you, even if you thought you got away with it, if that was the first time you ever killed a person...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I feel like it'd be really... Something would be weird. Like you'd be a little jittery.
Christine Schiefer: At least your adrenaline right? Liked you'd at least be shaky...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or something or, you know...
Em Schulz: Or like overly chatty or something to like disguise how calm you are or not calm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. So you'd, you'd at least think like, "Okay, he, he would, he would've noticed something." Um, but he said he seemed perfectly normal. So police you know, put him aside for now and said like, "We're not gonna rule him out, but we're gonna keep looking." Then they go to Michael, the younger brother who's 15. And Michael tells the police that he went with the other boys, his other brothers, to his cousin's house to watch Monty Python. And he says he got home at 11:30 PM and went straight to bed, has no clue what happened, wasn't part of it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Despite their many suspicions, investigators could not put together a solid case. They just didn't have enough evidence to hold anybody. So months go by, and at this point, Rushton, on the uh, advice of his attorney, stops cooperating with police, which I can also understand. If your sons are at the center of a murder investigation...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And you have that much money, like...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I assume your attorney, the first thing they're gonna say is like, "Don't fucking let them wander around looking for clues." You know what I mean? I...
Em Schulz: Yeah. This could be a big scandal and all that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I can imagine why, why that move was made, so I don't necessarily critique him for that. Um, but because of this, Martha's case basically goes cold. And Belle Haven is now like shell-shocked with this newfound fear, thinking like, "Oh God, we hope that this was an outsider who... It's a one-time thing, we hope, but like maybe it was somebody we know. Maybe it was somebody in the neighborhood." So they're grappling with this in town. And meanwhile, Michael, the younger brother, is continuing to struggle with his alcohol abuse. He gets into a drunk driving incident at age 17, and this is when his father sends him to a private and elite institution in Maine called the Elan School.
Em Schulz: Oh, we've talked about that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was like, I don't know if you remember that I read uh, "Oh, he was sent to uh, an elite school," and I went, "Oh no. I bet I fucking know which one this is. And it certainly is the Elan School in Maine, which I did in episodes 264 and 265, it was a rare two-parter on, [chuckle] on my part. Uh, it's a doozy.
Em Schulz: Horrifically abusive.
Christine Schiefer: An abusive place that has gone down in history with just like a dark, dark uh, narrative to it. And uh, the point of the school is basically a reform school with like all these kind of, at the time, new age-y ideas about like psychology and they would have them like do screaming... All I remember is like they would have them stand there and just like scream at the top of their lungs and uh, the punishments were always very um...
Em Schulz: Cruel.
Christine Schiefer: Cruel. Exactly. And uh, just a lot of terrible shit. You know, kids were getting injured and dying and it was covered up. There was a lot of stuff going on there. So I mean, it was a two-parter. So if you wanna learn more about that. But... So he has a connection there as well. And I can only imagine getting sent there probably didn't fix his problems. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You probably wanted to drink for sure. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Imagine... I imagine so. Um, hard to blame him. So he's sent to the Elan School which is catered to children with mental health and substance abuse problems uh, and sort of a reform school. And at this point, years go by, there's no news about Martha until 1995. Now, this is 20 years after her murder. Her family has just been like waiting for anything. So in 1995, a Kennedy was tried for rape in Florida and was acquitted. But somehow a rumor began circulating, and it's not true, but this rumor was that this Kennedy had been at the Skakel's house 20 years earlier when Martha was murdered. And even though this was just a rumor and it wasn't even true, it reminded people, like it reminded the public about this case, and so it became a headline again, if that makes sense. Like...
Em Schulz: Yes, that does make sense.
Christine Schiefer: The guy wasn't actually there, but because it was a rumor, people were like, "Oh yeah, the Martha Moxley case, whatever happened to that?" And it came back into the public eye.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so because of this, public pressure mounted until police decided to re-open the case. And this time, they started off offering a reward and launching a tip hotline that people could call. So Rushton feels like, "Okay, now the pressure's back on. Eyes are on me again because of this whole Kennedy scandal in Florida." And so he thinks to himself, "I'm gonna hire my own investigators to clear my family name." Oh boy, did this backfire.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Big time. So he has these investigators compile a report to like prove his family's innocence, right? Well, that report was never meant to see the light of day, but...
Em Schulz: Did they find a little too much?
Christine Schiefer: Somebody leaked it to the press.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh yeah, uh-oh. So in this never-meant-to-be-seen report made by Rushton's own personal investigators...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: They found shocking confessions from Tom and Michael that both boys had lied to the police...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And admitted this to their own personal investigators in 1975. According to them, they both only lied because they were both innocent and thought the truth would make them look bad.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. Well, this makes you look bad, my friends.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Talk about like a double, like a back... Big backfire.
Em Schulz: Double whammy. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like this... Double whammy. Like you're trying to make yourself look better and you just like digged the hole deeper, you know. So Tom told his father's investigators, this is the older boy, that after the other boys had left to go watch Monty Python at their cousin's house, he didn't go inside right away, in fact, he stayed outside making out with Martha for about 20 minutes before they parted ways.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And this version of events made more sense than his initial homework alibi, especially after investigators had discovered that no teacher had assigned a paper on Abraham Lincoln, that, during that time.
Em Schulz: Uh.
Christine Schiefer: So like at first they were like, "You were writing a paper on Abraham Lincoln." They talked to the teachers. No teacher had assigned a paper on Abraham Lincoln, but they couldn't like prove it. But now they're like, "A-ha, okay, so there was never a paper on Abraham Lincoln. He bullshitted that. Uh, meanwhile, he was outside making out with Martha." So Tom insists that he left Martha alive and well outside and it was the last time he ever saw her and he had nothing to do with it, but he thought making out with her would look bad. That is true. And so he never told the police. Meanwhile, Michael's story was even worse, even more concerning, even more red flags.
Em Schulz: He went golfing?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a really good guess.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Not quite. It's actually way worse. So he said that once he got home at 11:30, he actually didn't go straight to bed, instead he went to Martha's house. He said...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He climbed a tree with a view of Martha's window so he could watch her for a little bit. Then he said he could see her through the window, and so he masturbated in the tree.
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: So the belief now became, at least among the investigators and people who are critical of this family, that he is saying this to put his DNA at the scene for a reason, if they find his DNA.
Em Schulz: Oh, genius.
Christine Schiefer: This is one of the theories is that he said that...
Em Schulz: He knows it's there.
Christine Schiefer: He knows it might be there. That's one of the theories is that, why would he admit to this? Well, maybe he was trying to cover for the fact that... But they never found his DNA, so it's also like...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: We don't know if, if you know... All that to say that's one of the theories. Uh, but he did say he masturbated in the tree. And uh, at one point, Michael, uh, when he was older, pitched a tell-all book on Martha's murder and his own innocence. And again, this guy is like doubling down and making himself look worse because he referenced the event and he had made these like audio recordings, you know when like people, like fancy people write books and they like do like a transcription...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or they're like talking to...
Em Schulz: Story idea. Story idea.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [laughter] exactly. Like, "Chapter one, how I became the person I am." Yeah. So he is basically pitching his own book about his own innocence in regard to the Martha Moxley case and these audio clips come out and he references the event. And so he said when Dorothy Moxley came over the next morning asking about Martha, he was all panicked because he thought maybe she had seen him in the tree or maybe he had gotten caught.
Em Schulz: Hm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So soon, witnesses started coming forward with more troubling news, and these were some of Michael's classmates at the Elan School. And they said that Michael once confessed to Martha's murder in group therapy.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But the school's owner, Joe Ricci, denied it. So it's like a he said, he said.
Em Schulz: Well, I'm sure he was getting paid famously to have one of those kids at the school, right?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, probably. I imagine that... I think the tuition was, yeah, notable. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I also think this Rushton guy would have probably made a heavy donation to like make sure he was treated right or something, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And also like you can't even necessarily trust... Like after learning all that we did about the Elan School, it's also like hard to trust anyone's confession in a place where this is not a safe, medically supervised place and it's all full of children who are being abused. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's hard to say like, "Oh, even if you did say it, who knows if it was just part of their weird new age procedures or what." But this classmate said that he did admit to it. So another former classmate, Gregory Coleman, said one of the first things Michael ever said to him was, "I'm going to get away with murder. I'm a Kennedy." And according to him, Michael had admitted to beating Martha to death after she rejected his advances.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Now, another classmate, John D. Higgins, said Michael confessed to him too, but he was crying and confused during his confession and told John that he only remembered fragments of the crime after he committed it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So it's not looking good for Michael, you know.
Em Schulz: Is there any world where Michael didn't do it and he was trying to like look cool to the other guys to like earn bragging points?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. That's...
Em Schulz: Alright. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of where the disparity comes in of, even if he had actually said it, maybe it was just pressured out of him. Maybe he was bragging.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he was trying to establish a place in like a hierarchy that was kind of Lord of the Flies. You know, who knows what like the motive was. We don't even have proof that he did admit to it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But like you said, even if he did, maybe it was just a brag or uh, a lie, you know. Um, so it's, it's unclear, but it's also not a good look for someone who's trying to claim they're innocent. So in 1998, the state attorney convened a rare one-person grand jury to assess all the evidence in the case regarding Michael and Martha Moxley. After an 18-month review involving dozens of witnesses, Michael Skakel was indicted on charges for Martha's murder in January of 2000. At the hearing, he approached Dorothy Moxley, um, Martha's mother, and said, "I feel your pain, but you've got the wrong guy." Also, don't say, "I feel your pain." You don't.
Em Schulz: That's crazy. That's...
Christine Schiefer: That is a crazy thing to say.
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: You're incorrect. You don't.
Em Schulz: "I know how you feel."
Christine Schiefer: No, you literally don't. But, okay. So the defense tried to get Michael tried as a juvenile because he had been obviously 15 at the time of the alleged crime, which would mean little to no jail time even with a guilty verdict, but the court determined to try him as an adult. So now... By the way, Michael at this point is 41, and this occurred when he was 15.
Em Schulz: Geez. It has followed him.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, and it continues to do so. So in 2002, he's 41, he goes to trial, and the prosecution aims to discredit Michael's alibi. One witness testified that she was at the Skakel house that night, and that Michael did not go to his cousin's house to watch Monty Python. So she's like, "That whole chunk of his story is a lie." Although there was no forensic evidence like DNA or anything tying him to the crime scene, witness testimonies were pretty compelling. So in his closing argument, the prosecution did something that even the people who find Michael to be guilty considered unethical. Really shady tactic, in my opinion as well. The prosecution played the recording Michael made referencing masturbating in the tree where he was worried he'd been seen in the act, but the prosecutor removed the context, so the recording sounded like he was worried that someone had seen him that night at the scene of the crime.
Christine Schiefer: So to explain it a little clearly, they have a clip of him saying, "Oh, 'cause I had masturbated in the tree, I was worried that maybe someone had spotted me that night," they cut out the tree part and just played the recording of him saying "I was so worried that I was caught at the scene that night," you know.
Em Schulz: Gotcha. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so they made it sound like he was admitting to being at the site of her murder when in fact he had been talking about...
Em Schulz: The tree.
Christine Schiefer: Being a peeping tom in a tree.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, unethical, not, not great, um, but it was basically the final nail in the coffin. Um, I also meant to send you some photos. I feel like there's something about like seeing these people, like these kids and just seeing like how, I mean, young and... Like here's Martha, and we'll post these on Instagram um, as well. And I'll send you a picture of Michael at the time.
Em Schulz: Okay, that's Martha.
Christine Schiefer: That's Martha. I mean, they're so little.
Em Schulz: They are. Oh man, they are so young. They even have like baby face.
Christine Schiefer: They do. They're, I mean, 15. And then um... This is Michael.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: This is Michael um, in court. So this is, you know, decades later.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So just to give you kind of a visual. Um, 'cause I think that's something about these documentaries that are, that's like powerful too, is seeing the old photos and putting a face to the names.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so anyway, this "confession" that they played seemed to be a final nail in the coffin. So on August 30th, 2002, Michael was sentenced to 20 years to life in prison for the murder of Martha Moxley.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: But Michael didn't give up. Uh, he got a new defense team who started working on appeals and, you know, he has the money to be hiring new people, to be hiring the best of the best, attorney-wise. Then a man named Tony Bryant came forward. Um, I believe he's a cousin of Kobe Bryant.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm pretty sure uh, that was the story. His name's Tony Bryant, and he came forward with somewhat of a strange story. He claimed that two of his friends from New York City had actually murdered Martha Moxley.
Em Schulz: Woah. What? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Plot twist.
Em Schulz: Random fact time, I guess, just...
Christine Schiefer: Random fact time indeed.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: According to him, these two friends had visited Belle Haven several times and had once met Martha at a local event. Tony said one of his friends had become obsessed with Martha and possessive of her whenever he was around her. On October 30th, 1975, allegedly, according to him, the three of them were walking around Belle Haven and this friend who was obsessed with Martha, picked up one of the Skakel's golf clubs and said they were going to hurt someone that night.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Gosh.
Christine Schiefer: His other claim was that the friend who was obsessed with, with Martha claimed he would go all caveman on her and get what he wanted.
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And you know, this put into perspective to me also when they talked about the golf club and it coming from the Skakel's house, that sounds so damning. But at the same time, the way that these kids who are, you know, now adults, described the environment, they said, "There were just golf clubs everywhere. Like we lived basically in a country club."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it wasn't unusual for someone to just take a golf club from the Skakel's house and go...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: You know, so it wasn't like, "Oh, somebody must have broken into the garage and stealing the golf club." They were just kind of laying about. Um...
Em Schulz: Gotcha. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which is Like the most stereotype of like country club people. Like they just have golf clubs scattered about the lawn...
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That apparently, they literally did. So it kind of puts into perspective, like, okay, I guess it's possible someone else picked up a golf club and attacked her with it.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So when he saw them again, allegedly, Tony was like, "Yeah, my friends were like, 'We're gonna hurt this girl and go caveman on her.'" And they never said Martha's name, but he said later on, he ran into them again and they told him they'd killed a girl.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so this is this groundbreaking story coming forward. Then one of Michael's classmates who claimed Michael confessed to the murder, this is one of the people from the Elan School who had said, "No, no, Michael told me like he had killed Martha," this guy comes forward and goes, "I have something to admit. I have a confession to make. I was high on heroin when I said that."
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so that...
Em Schulz: Were you also have been high on heroin when you killed her? Like, what?
Christine Schiefer: No. The friend... Sorry. The one from the Elan School who had come forward and said, "Michael told me he killed Martha... "
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Then like years later came forward and said, "Oh, I know I said that, but I was high on heroin, so I don't... "
Em Schulz: "When I accused a person, when I... "
Christine Schiefer: "When I accused him, or when I... "
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: "When I made up the story, or when I told the story that he had killed Martha, I was high on heroin," and this guy actually ended up dying of an overdose. So, you know, it was easy in the eyes of Michael's defense team to like discredit this guy and say, "Well, this guy is high on heroin. Are you gonna believe everything he says?" you know? So at this point, Michael's defense team feels pretty strongly. They file an appeal largely based on this Tony Bryant's testimony. Um, the only problem is that Tony refused to testify under oath. Uh, so they only had a recording of his story, and unfortunately, this did not win over, uh, the court and the appeal was denied.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So we fast-forward to September 2010, and Michael's new attorney files an appeal, which argued that his previous defense team had failed to properly represent him. They argued that Tom, his older brother, should have been called to the stand and that he might've been the one to kill Martha. And now a new witness came forward and said, "No, he was at his cousin's house that night. I was there." So, I mean...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's basically he said, she said like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, back and forth nonstop.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like been decades. So it's like, does anyone really remember? Are they... Are their memories being colored by all this craziness? You know, how much of this is true? How much of it is do you feel pressured from the family? It's all very...
Em Schulz: It's also... If it wasn't them...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If it wasn't, 25 years of this following you around and you didn't do anything wrong, you know?
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And so there are very... Exactly. And that's why there are very strong divided opinions on this. Like some people are like, "He was unjustly imprisoned," and then people are like, "He absolutely fucking did it," you know. There's...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's a very polarizing case. So they argued Tom is the one who should have been called to the stand. A new witness comes forward and says, "I did see him at his cousin's house watching Monty Python, I swear." And so this is like a he said, she said. And in 2013, a judge finally granted Michael a new trial on the grounds that he had not been effectively represented in 2002. Michael was released from prison after 11 years on $1.2 million bail. But in 2016, the Connecticut Supreme Court ruled his legal representation was in fact competent and they reinstated the murder charge.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like back and forth. He's in jail, he's not in jail. He's a murderer, he's not a murderer. So after the hearing in 2016, Martha's mother, Dorothy said, "I am sure that Michael is the young man who swung the golf club. There is no doubt in my mind about that."
Em Schulz: Oh, damn.
Christine Schiefer: So that's damning at least coming from Martha's mother. Now, this is when our good friend, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., comes into play.
Em Schulz: Oh, I was wondering when he'd make an appearance.
Christine Schiefer: He always does, huh? Um, so RFK Jr., um, little bit of loony tune, uh, you know, as we record this, uh, just announced he's running independent in 2024. Uh, no comment. [laughter] So, RFK, Jr., he is a former prosecutor and environmental lawyer, and he was convinced of his cousin, I just wanna clarify they're cousins, so there is some bias here, I would argue...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Convinced of Michael's innocence. So he wrote a whole book about it. This book is called "Framed: Why Michael Skakel Spent Over a Decade in Prison for a Murder He Didn't Commit". This book that RFK wrote pointed the finger back at these two friends that Tony talked about, the New York kids.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he said those are the real culprits. He claimed to have definitive proof that they were the culprits, but they... There were obviously some holes with his story. So the book claimed that Martha wrote in her diary about meeting Tony and his friends, referring to them as two strangers she encountered at a dance. Nope. In the actual diary entry, she says, several guys asked her to dance the night of the dance. That's it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She doesn't talk about strangers. She doesn't talk about meeting two boys from New York. There's no reference to them specifically.
Em Schulz: And even... Even if, even if they happened to be there for some reason, they would've been two of the many boys who asked her to dance. She wouldn't now remember either of them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah! And, and the thing that's so like jarring is like he claims he has definitive proof and it's like, that's definitive proof to you? Like a diary entry where multiple people asked her to dance?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, a diary entry where they're not mentioned. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like... Exactly. It's not a strong case. Sorry, bud. Uh, so she then went on to list several boys she danced with by name and she said she danced a lot with her friend Dickie. And they talked to Dickie. CBS News, reached out to him, interviewed him. He said, "Yes, I did. I danced with her a lot that night. I spent most of the night with her. I never saw Tony or his two friends from New York."
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay. That doesn't hurt, or that doesn't help their case.
Christine Schiefer: It does not. And also, I will argue, I've left this fact out because it's so jarring and like...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Adds a lot of nuance to the case, but it's a significant detail that this Dickie kid said, "I didn't see these two friends," because Tony and one of the two friends are both black. And in a neighborhood like this...
Em Schulz: Mmm. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: You would've noticed if they were there. Okay. If these two out-of-town city boys, right, who were black, are coming to town...
Em Schulz: In a 1970s country club full of white people...
Christine Schiefer: In a 1970s country club, allegedly obsessing over this girl, like he would've... People would've taken notice of this.
Em Schulz: Someone would've... Someone there was racist and someone would've said something.
Christine Schiefer: Someone... You know someone was. Come on. We could all agree on that. Right, guys? Like, we could meet there in the middle.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, yeah. So it's, it's telling. And Belle Haven, like I said, was a very exclusive, heavily white neighborhood, where even white people who didn't really fit the majority stood out like a sore thumb. Like even if you...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Came from different means, uh, but you were still white, you stood out. So two black kids from New York would've stood out.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Dickie told CBS there is no way two black teenagers could have hung out in Belle Haven in 1975 and gone unnoticed. It's just not possible. Someone would've remembered them going to the dance or hanging around the night of Martha's murder. And also, I gotta be honest, I watched this special called Murder and Justice: The Case of Martha Moxley. It's a multi-part documentary. Um, I don't know where to watch it because I hacked into my dad's Xfinity account and watched it that way. Um, but it's, it's online. And, uh, it's a multi-part documentary. It's hosted by former federal prosecutor, Laura Coates and she's black and she does an interview with RFK Jr. And I just love this moment 'cause he's like so staunchly saying, "Oh yeah, they didn't... These two kids did it and, you know, whatever." And this former federal prosecutor who is also black looks at him and goes, "I mean, I... " Like, I, I'm gonna paraphrase. She said it much more eloquently, but she basically said, Okay, let's be real here. This is the United States in 1975 and you're telling me that if two black kids had been there, they weren't the first people everyone pointed a finger at? Like, if they had been hanging around...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You don't think they would've immediately been taken into the station and that would've been easier pill to swallow for the rest of the neighbors than like the kid across the street who's a Kennedy? I mean, come on. Like, it's...
Em Schulz: Perfectly, perfectly said.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like, she put him so on-the-spot and he's like, "Well, it's because this and that," and it's like, no, no, I don't believe you. Anyway...
Em Schulz: It was like 15 years into like desegregation or, you know...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah. Yeah. And this is like the height of like that kind of preppy, like we're entering the '80s polo club. I mean, come on. We can all agree that if they had been there, they would've been an easy target. But for some reason, he kind of casually dismisses that and says, "No, no, but I have definitive proof," and then never seems to show it. So whatever. I do recommend watching that documentary, I thought they did a good job. Um, Tony even mentioned that his friend who was allegedly obsessed with Martha was particularly interested in her blonde hair. And now it became sort of like this, I don't even know, strawman, like scapegoat story of this stereotypical young black man who's coveting this wealthy small town white girl. Like it became such a trope. And like some people found that really easy to swallow. Like, oh, this black kid must have just looked at her and thought, "I want that for myself," you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It, it's just a very like, cringey take, you know. Um, the accused man's attorney who's also interviewed in this documentary, very well-spoken, like I think does a really solid job of defending his client, claims it was a clear case of black and white. And two of Martha's friends agreed in an interview that Robert F. Kennedy and Michael were trying to scapegoat the most vulnerable person they could find, a young black man who was out of his element in this white neighborhood.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Christine Schiefer: And I will, uh, add here, I put a... [laughter] Just in case we needed it, I put a screenshot of some of the shit RFK Jr., has said in the past few years 'cause I'm like, if anyone even tries to challenge me on like, "Oh, it's not racist," I'm like, "Okay, well, I have some, uh, definitive proof, okay, uh, about the bullshit he said, um, about COVID and other, uh, other relevant... "
Em Schulz: Silly things.
Christine Schiefer: Timely, silly, silly, goofy things. Um, so I have this here if anyone wants it. Anyway, in a November 2020 CBS special, an interviewer asked RFK, "Do you have any regrets pointing the finger at two people who have never been suspects? There's no physical evidence that ties them to the crime." This is a factual statement. They're literally just asking...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This question. He stands up in the middle of her sentence, tells her she was wrong. There was plenty of physical evidence linking them to the crime. What is the evidence? Nobody knows.
Em Schulz: He has thoughts. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He never told us. It's a fun little secret. Uh, unclear what the evidence is. And Michael's defense team continued to rally behind him with this kind of narrative, like they're creating this narrative here, uh, to try and, uh, clear his name basically. They even, like I said, pointed the finger at his older brother Tom, who they claimed is the most likely culprit, of which I'm like, I thought it was a black kid? But, okay, I guess it's also your brother.
Christine Schiefer: Um, anyway, on May 4th, 2018, with a new judge seated, the Connecticut Supreme Court reversed its 2016 ruling and vacated Michael's conviction in a 4-3 ruling and they granted him a new trial. When asked what the Moxley family plan to do in response, 59-year-old John Moxley, Martha's brother said, "I don't know what the next steps are. My mom is getting older. I just don't think she has the strength to go on with this," which is just like heartbreak. I mean, think of all the back and forth and just...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Trying to get answers. On October 30th, 2020, so this is 45 years to the day...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: After Martha's murder, the state of Connecticut officially announced that Michael would not be retried for Martha Moxley's murder. It was decided there was not enough evidence to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Uh, at this point, it'd been so long. I mean, 45 years. Of 51 potential witnesses, 17 had died. There was no forensic evidence to prove that he had been at the case. So John said, the brother, "He'll be in jail for the rest of his life. He may not be physically in jail, he may be walking the streets, but he'll be in hell at some point."
Em Schulz: I was like, woah, that's...
Christine Schiefer: Powerful.
Em Schulz: Fucking, yeah, moving. Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So today, no one is legally responsible for Martha Moxley's brutal death, uh, as the charges have been overturned. Um, but Dorothy remains convinced it was Michael. And she is one of these people you see and you're like, "Wow, you are an old soul." Like she is so... She's been through so much pain, but she just sits there and she's like, "If I'm wrong, I'm going to be so sorry." And, uh, the uh, host says, "But you don't think you're wrong." She's like, "Oh, no, I don't think I'm wrong." She's like, "I understand like if I am wrong, of course, that's a really bad thing, but I don't think I'm wrong. And I think I know who did it."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she said like, you know, "I have a really happy life. I have a really blessed life. I've, I have so much to be thankful for." And she said, "And he's gonna live the rest of his life with this following him around." And you know what?
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Another point she made too was, she said, "People come up to me and say nice things. I have caring friends. I have people who take care of me, who love me, who say nice and kind, uh, things to help me heal." She said, "I don't think anyone's saying those things to Michael Skakel. I don't think he's getting nice messages from people."
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: "I think he's gonna be followed by this forever, uh, even if he's not in jail." So...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody, nobody, nobody's in jail for it. Dorothy... Dorothy remains convinced it was Michael. And she said, "I will never forget the day they found him guilty. It gave me all the sense of justice I needed." So she almost feels like that was closure, even though he was later, you know, released.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And she felt like, "You know what, that day I felt like I got my justice and I, I felt secure in that." Um...
Em Schulz: Alright.
Christine Schiefer: And this, this part, uh, Saoirse added in and, and wrote like kind of a note saying this was actually the... 'Cause I didn't watch the CBS episode um, but uh, Saoirse said this is the closing note of the CBS episode. So [laughter] like, they were like, "I don't know if you wanna use it, you can, but it's like the same thing that they said." But it's really powerful. So, um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Or as Saoirse said, really haunting. So I'll just read the last line of, uh, how they uh, ended the CBS special. "In Martha's diary at the end of 1974, she wrote, 'Dear diary, today is the last day of '74. Boo-hoo. '74 has been one of the best years of my life. Well, hope '75 is just as good.'"
Em Schulz: Ohf.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, that is the story.
Em Schulz: That is...
Christine Schiefer: Haunting.
Em Schulz: Haunting. Haunting.
Christine Schiefer: That's like, especially when I read earlier that thing of like, "Man, I shouldn't go over there anymore." It's like, oh God, it's that hindsight of, you know, 2020...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Looking back and feeling like, "Oh man, I just... I wish, I wish there was any way to get her out of this situation." Um, but yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It's, uh, it's really fucked up.
Em Schulz: Well, good telling it.
Christine Schiefer: I just... I found it really, um, uh, I don't know. I found watching Martha's mother, Dorothy talk about her life with this, uh, like hanging over her, very inspiring.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine the heaviness of 25 years or however long it took.
Christine Schiefer: No. 45.
Em Schulz: 45. Oh my God. 45 years?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Phew. Um, wow.
Christine Schiefer: And she's just like such a, you could just tell a very strong self-assured and kind woman. And I feel like that kindness, that is a strength. Like, I think if I went through something like this, my resent... My resentment and bitterness would be so overpowering. And I mean, I'm sure she's had decades to reflect and therapize...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And what have you, but I mean, I can't imagine I would ever be able to really let go of that like anger and hatred, you know? I feel like that...
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: Would just tear me up inside.
Em Schulz: Not me.
Christine Schiefer: So... Not me.
Em Schulz: Not, not me. I'd be a lot meaner.
Christine Schiefer: Couldn't be me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, speaking of mean, just to shift gear, shift gears here um, I got a text from my mom just now...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And she texted me saying, "I think you smell... "
Christine Schiefer: What does she want?
Em Schulz: She said, "I think you smell like milk."
Christine Schiefer: Heh?
Em Schulz: And, um...
Christine Schiefer: Well that's very rude.
Em Schulz: And then... Yeah. And then I said, "I smell like milk?" and she said, "Good cold milk." [laughter] And then she said, "I love the smell of grapefruit though."
Christine Schiefer: Is she... Is this... Oh wait. Is this one of your secret code words? Like, is she in the trunk of someone's car and you get to call...
Em Schulz: No. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Like, is it like, "You smell like milk, alert, red alert"? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I would like to call someone and ask them to put her in a trunk if she's gonna keep telling me I smell like fucking milk.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's gonna end up in your trunk. You're gonna go pick her up, be like, "Come on, get in the car."
Em Schulz: Which like, I also don't smell like milk.
Christine Schiefer: No, you don't smell like milk, to be clear. Uh, like if... I don't know if you needed that validated, but like I can confirm.
Em Schulz: Also, my mom and I aren't very physically affectionate. She's never near me enough to smell me. And then also, I live on the other side of the country. What is she smelling?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Here's my theory. She hasn't...
Em Schulz: Oh God...
Christine Schiefer: Been around... Maybe she drinks oats, soy. I don't know, whatever. She just probably doesn't drink a glass of milk, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Something happened. She happened to be pouring a cold glass of milk, milk on cereal, who knows what, and as she's pouring the milk, she goes, "This reminds me of Em." And it's probably because you're the only person under the age of 65 who drinks a glass of milk ever. [laughter] And so it's probably like, "Oh, this smells like someone. Oh, it's, uh, it's gotta be Em. Who else the fuck drinks plain old, plain ass milk out of a cup?" So I feel like that's my theory.
Em Schulz: I am a little worried though, because I have heard that, um, apparently to people of color, white people do smell like milk.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Have you heard this? Or we smell... I've heard we smell like milk.
Christine Schiefer: No, you said...
Em Schulz: I've heard we smell like pennies.
Christine Schiefer: Pennies.
Em Schulz: And I've also... Like we smell like outside, which uh, it's like, I could... I get the outside thing. I can smell that on, on people.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But like the milk one really freaks me out.
Christine Schiefer: That is not a compliment.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I'm like that's a funky smell.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's bad. And I'm so sorry to people who have to live with that sense, like smelling us.
Em Schulz: If you're a person of color and we smell like milk and you just have to be near that all the time.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: That's... If anyone needed a reason to shower today, just... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I didn't think I needed a reason, but you just gave me one. So now I'm like...
Em Schulz: I've heard it's like, like the wet dog smell. It's like when we're, when we come out of the shower or something, we smell like milk.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And by the way, you told me that one time while we were hanging out and I was very pregnant, and Gio had just gone on the balcony and we let him back in and you were like, "Did you know that this is what you smell like to people of color?" And I was like, "Um, thank you. I'm very heavily pregnant, but thank you for that nice fun fact."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I texted some of our friends, like text... And I, I was gonna say my friends, but you know them too. I've, I've texted a few people and I went, "Hey, just like a quick question. Like I just learned after 30 years of being a white person that apparently I smell like pennies and wet dog, milk?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sick.
Em Schulz: And it was not denied.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, I remember. Yeah, you were like... I mean, Christine confirmed it, the other Christine, and I was like, "Well, I think that's all we need to know."
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. She's One of the people who confirmed it. She was like, "Who told you?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You, uh... Yeah. Who told you? That's secret knowledge. Which I love that that's such a power... That's like such a power card that they have, uh, in their pocket if they need it. 'Cause like that will demolish some people. Probably not all people, but it, to me, I'm like, that hurts.
Em Schulz: I lose sleep about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, me too. Me too.
Em Schulz: Um, I... But yeah, so my mom telling me also just hurts even more 'cause it's like, it's one thing if strangers think that about me, but my own mother from across the country? That...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She's like, "Huh, I never noticed before." It's like, ah...
Em Schulz: I, I feel like she thinks that's a compliment, like I smell like ice cream or something, [laughter] but like, no, I'm thinking of like curds of milk. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like milk is one of those smells where for like a few days, not a problem, and very, very low-smelling. But I feel like if milk has a smell, that's when you know things have gone wrong, you know?
Em Schulz: Exactly. If I smell like milk, I smell rotten. So...
Christine Schiefer: Like, yeah, you smell like milk, milk that smells, which is bad milk. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Well, thanks, Mom.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway...
Em Schulz: You smell great too. Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks, Linda. You smell like a wet dog, okay? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Good, good way to end this. So, um, everyone, go take a shower. This is also your reminder to stay hydrated, you filthy little rats. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I drank my whole iced tea.
Em Schulz: And, uh, I guess that's it. So, and...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
