[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hi.
Em Schulz: Wel-Welcome to, And That's Why We Drink where...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: We talk and you listen. And you're maybe driving? Or cleaning? Or walking?
Christine Schiefer: We see you.
Em Schulz: Or doing the dishes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, walking you show off you.
Em Schulz: But whatever you're doing. I know one thing we're all not doing right now, and that's hydrating. So drink right now. Take a drink. Quick, quick, quick, quick. Quick, quick.
Christine Schiefer: I have zero beverages for the ones in my life.
Em Schulz: See? We're the worst, we're the worst icons of a show called And That's Why We Drink.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you should take our advice for sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah, please, umm, hmm. Indulge in some H2O at the very least. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh.
Em Schulz: What are you, if you could drink anything right now. Christine, what's your little taste bud screaming for?
Christine Schiefer: Listen, I just finished my coffee. It's, it's another early morning for us, Em. It's another 10:00 AM [laughter] to start.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: By the way, I'm the one that usually has to wake up at 10:00 AM. This is a a new thing for Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I know you're like, "This is normal." I'm like, "What is my life?" Umm.
Em Schulz: It's really nice though, isn't it? Because after you record you get the whole second half of the day.
Christine Schiefer: It's actually incredible. Are you down to wake up at 7:00 AM in California? [laughter] When you go back?
Em Schulz: No. No. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Because I actually way prefer this situation. Umm, usually when I'm done, I haven't eaten breakfast or lunch and it's 4:30 PM. So I'm like...
Em Schulz: That I believe.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Miserable. But, uh, yeah, no, this is nice. Umm, I actually meant to bring up a reason 'cause we recorded yesterday why I drink, but I got all flummoxed by my Sweden trip.
Em Schulz: Mmm, flummoxed.
Christine Schiefer: So can I tell you why... [laughter] Can I tell you why...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I drink this week? Why I drink...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently nothing? Umm, so I went to Knoxville over the weekend, which I briefly mentioned the Speakeasy I was at. Umm, and it was so nice and I just wanna brag on my my boy for a minute, 'cause he did such a good job in his jiu-jitsu tournament, and I'm so proud of...
Em Schulz: Oh, I didn't know that's who you guys with.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So it was like kind of, he didn't like really tell anybody, [laughter] like he told me. But like, he didn't even tell his family or anything. I think he just wanted to keep it on the DL 'cause it was his first tournament. Umm, and so we went down there and I was like trying to be helpful, but there's like a whole gym full of people and I didn't know what anyone was doing. I've never watched jiu-jitsu.
Em Schulz: I, I thought you... Wouldn't you be so helpful in a gym, Christine? I can't imagine you...
Christine Schiefer: I know it's hard to believe.
Em Schulz: More helpful anywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you, Em. That's so kind of you. Yeah, you're right. Uh, the person who doesn't even have water, uh, available in like 100 yard radius is helpful in a gym. Umm, so I was, I brought, uh, I went with him there and I was, it was, it was, I've never seen jiu-jitsu. He's been doing jiu-jitsu for like, on and off for years. And he's been training really hard like twice a day he goes to the gym for like two hours each and trains. I have, I had no idea what he was doing.
Em Schulz: You didn't know that he does that?
Christine Schiefer: No, no. I know that he does that.
Em Schulz: He takes Leona and... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I just thought he was having an affair. No, I'm just kidding. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I, I knew he was doing jiu-jitsu, but like, I didn't really know what that, like I don't know. I've never really watched it.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And it never occurred to me until I'm in the gym and everyone's like, and all of a sudden he's in this like, on this mat and they're like, there's a referee. And they're kinda like, go and they're suddenly like wrestling each other and like holding each other's necks. And, and then the first match we watched this guy passes out and I'm like, oh no. And Blaise goes, "Oh no, that's normal." And I'm like, "What do you mean? Like, he lost blood to his brain? Like he lost consciousness?" Blaise is like, "Yeah, just temporarily." And I'm like, "I don't know if I can do this."
Christine Schiefer: I was more nervous than he was watching this happen. Umm, and he did a really good job. And, uh, it was really fun. And then that night, finally I got to buy him a cocktail 'cause he hasn't been drinking alcohol in many, many weeks 'cause he's been training. Umm, so anyway, I just, we had a great time and umm, you know, oh, apparently I've been meaning to bring this up for like a year, Em. We once talked about jiu-jitsu 'cause we talked about like, uh, self-defense. And...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: I said something like, oh, about the, the Gracie gym. And you were like, "Oh, Gracie, who's Gracie?" And I was like, "I don't know. She like, I'm so proud of her." Okay. Apparently Gracie is the last name of like the biggest jiu-jitsu family, umm, in the world. And so all the like Gracie affiliated gyms are like a certain, I don't know, jiu-jitsu related thing. But so Blaise was like so mortified 'cause we were like, "Aww, who's Gracie?" And it's like the name of like the brothers who brought jiu-jitsu to America. And umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Aw, who are the Rockefellers? I bet they're cute.
Christine Schiefer: I bet it's a cute puppy dog. Yeah, that's basically the equivalent of how we were talking about it. And he was like, he's like, "Christine, you, I thought you know this." And I was like, oh, I guess maybe in the back of my brain somewhere. I knew that. Umm, so anyway, that I just, I know he was like so mortified and I feel like a lot of people listening probably thought we were big dumbos. Umm...
Em Schulz: Well, I mean there are so many people that, umm, go to training rings apparently that listen to us, so.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Well, apparently there are, there's one that I know and I was shocked to learn about it this past weekend.
Em Schulz: Oh. Well, uh, yeah. That's such a, you know, he's such an enigma. I can see why you...
Christine Schiefer: He is an enigma.
Em Schulz: Married him because I mean, I knew he did jiu-jitsu when I first started hanging out with you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That was in like 2017. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then I assumed once you guys had a kid, it just kind of faded away 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: We never, he never did it again. Like since then, once he started his job in LA he just like completely stops. So it's been like four years since he had done it.
Em Schulz: When did he pick it up again? Only like a couple weeks ago?
Christine Schiefer: No, I think like a year ago. Maybe. Maybe a little less than a year ago. Umm, a few months ago. I don't know. But, yeah, he goes like twice a day. He's like training. Then he works out at home. I mean, I don't know. Umm, so that's like...
Em Schulz: Is he like all like buff and ripped and everything?
Christine Schiefer: He is, he is really buff. He is like in the best shape ever. He's really, I'm, meanwhile, I'm just under a blanket in here like drinking wine.
Em Schulz: Right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But he's living the best, his best life. Umm, so anyway, I'm just proud of him. I just wanna, and he listens to the podcast every week, so I wanna say a little shout out. He probably skipped this 'cause he's embarrassed, but, umm...
Em Schulz: He heard the Gracie thing and went, "Oh my God."
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. He is like, not again. Umm, so that's all, that's why I drink. And also Knoxville is a cool ass town. Umm, but the last time I was there, I saw that ghost, remember? Sitting at the edge of my bed.
Em Schulz: Whoa. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, he was like you know in a tank top. Umm, and was just watching me sleep.
Em Schulz: Just being one of the girlies with the cool tank top and a crop.
Christine Schiefer: Just been a girly, well, you know I, I said wife beater last time and then I was like, that's probably not the thing we're supposed to say. So...
Em Schulz: Certainly not.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I changed it to tank top, but then, uh, [laughter] remember I woke up and I realized I was on top of the bed and it was like tucked in under me? Ugh. So...
Em Schulz: Ugh. Wow. Actually no, I forgot about that. But [laughter], thanks for the nightmares.
Christine Schiefer: That was your favorite detail. So, uh, I went back and apparently, so our friends, uh, Taylor and uh, Morgan, who host Creeps and Crimes live in Knoxville. And so I messaged them for any like recommendations and they were like, we're both separately out of town this weekend. And I was like, dammit. But, so they gave me great recommendations and then when I said where I was staying, they were like, oh, that's a haunted hotel. And I was like, you have got to be kidding me. Umm, but I didn't see any ghosts this time. I only saw one at like the Holiday Inn Express or whatever the last time I did.
Em Schulz: From the Red Roof Inn. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Umm, so anyway, sorry that was long, but that's why I drink, Em. Umm, may I ask why you drink this week, my friend?
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't have a reason why I drink.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably good.
Em Schulz: Umm, I know for once, let me have this. Umm, I'm sure I could scrounge up a problem in my life.
Christine Schiefer: We always do, you know, it's hard to believe but...
Em Schulz: Umm, next week I, umm, going to the beach with my mom, which, umm...
Christine Schiefer: That already sounds rough. [laughter] To the beach with, to beach with anyone, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: To the, to the beach with anyone. I don't even fucking like the beach. Let's be clear.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, the beach is over.
Em Schulz: I hate the ocean. I hate the sand. I hate outside.
Christine Schiefer: There's animals in there. Did you know that?
Em Schulz: Girl, you're making a joke, right? We've talked about this.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah, like how you hate the animals in there. The fish.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay. I was like, do I have to tell you about my, my intense fear.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. I'm just like, holy shit. Have you heard about the I don't like it either. I don't, I don't have an intense fear as bad as you do, but I get it. Like, it's not my jam. Not my jam.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, God.
Christine Schiefer: I went into a lake recently. I went to a lake, as I told you, almost drowned.
Em Schulz: Why would you do that?
Christine Schiefer: Remember? I was like holding the, because I was trying to bring High Noons to the people of, of the lake.
Em Schulz: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: AKA Renee and Lindsay and I almost like drowned myself. And they were like, "They float," umm, [laughter] but yeah, so I was in a lake and that was incredibly traumatic. So I, an ocean is like, I don't think so.
Em Schulz: Oh, I just can't even tolerate it. I literally to know that I'll never, I'll never be a surfer, okay. Like there's some things in my life...
Christine Schiefer: Happily. [laughter]
Em Schulz: There's some things in life where I can look at it and it's like I'll die before I know that knowledge and I'm fine with it.
Christine Schiefer: So proud. I'm so proud that I'll know... I also think sometimes like why are people surfers? Good for them. But like the last thing I'd ever wanna do in my life is wake up at 5:00 AM to go into the ocean.
Em Schulz: And you know it, I'm like my own walking fucking question mark because I love a waterfront view. I love a waterfront view. I love being near water 'cause I like hearing the waves and I like hearing the tide.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's beautiful.
Em Schulz: And I like looking at the shore and like the sunsets are beautiful. Like nothing I love more than the view, but if you expect me to stand on a beach, oh my god, we're gonna have problems. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord. Oh Lord.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I just can't take it. Also as I'm learning more about myself in recent years, I'm delving into, umm, sensory issues I didn't realize I had.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So that explains a lot. I just don't like being...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the sensory is bad. I mean sand, no.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine someone going to the sand and actually feeling relaxed after being on sand. Especially like the ocean is salty, thus sticky. And then you go and there's the sand and then the sand adheses to you from the sticky water, and you have to shower.
Christine Schiefer: Adheses to you uh-huh and then? [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's true. I just can't even tolerate it. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Not a word, but yes, it is true. Umm...
Em Schulz: Adheses, adheses. Adhesive.
Christine Schiefer: Adheres.
Em Schulz: Adheres. Uh, thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Adheses.
Em Schulz: But, umm, I really, I really, my dumbass brain thought adheses was a word.
Christine Schiefer: It's close enough. We all knew what you meant.
Em Schulz: But so my mom is, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So why are you calling? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Good call. Especially because not only me, between me and between my mom and Tom, there's five of us.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: With the kids.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was like, that's not correct between me... [laughter]
Em Schulz: There's seven of us. There's five kids. And not a single child is excited about this trip.
Christine Schiefer: Why are you doing it? I mean, it sounds like the quintessential family trip where nobody wants to go except the parents, but...
Em Schulz: Well, okay, so there we have one who's not even going, which I'm, good for him.
Christine Schiefer: Is that you?
Em Schulz: No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, that sounds like you.
Em Schulz: There's one that's not even going. Uh, one, one has like their own really intense, uh, sensory needs more than I have. And they're not interested in going to the beach.
Christine Schiefer: But they have have to go anyway?
Em Schulz: They have to go anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, too bad.
Em Schulz: This is kinda like half of like a graduation present for them, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's nice. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So like, congratulations. We're going to the place you hate.
Christine Schiefer: Roll around in the sand for a few minutes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We're so proud of you.
Em Schulz: Well, I think it's like my mom wants to have like a family trip.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it'll be lovely. Linda, I'm not, I hope you're not offended. I'm just...
Em Schulz: No, she's used to all five of us going, "Why are we going?" So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good. I'm just joking along.
Em Schulz: Umm, no, the the real answer of why we're going is she like, already had like a, like she has a timeshare and so she already had that scheduled and so she was like, well, while Em's in town and there's a graduation, it just made sense. And so...
Christine Schiefer: It made sense. What, can I ask? What town? Like where is it?
Em Schulz: Hilton Head, which I've gone to before.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I Love Hilton Head. I say as we talk about how much we hate the beach.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so in, in beach towns and I love a boardwalk. We all know I love a tchotchke. We know I love a tchotchke.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you love a boardwalk. You love anything quirky. Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: I love, I love a mini golf. You know, they've got it there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: I love, I love anything touristy and awful and novelty...
Christine Schiefer: How do you about saltwater taffy?
Em Schulz: I want to be a fan. I wish I was.
Christine Schiefer: I wish I was too. And I don't like it.
Em Schulz: I can't do it. I can't do it. I want to so bad.
Christine Schiefer: Every time I go to Cape Cod or somewhere, I'm like, okay, this is it. This year I'll be like, yeah. And I try it and I'm like, blah. I don't want it.
Em Schulz: I, I really, I do love every boardwalk's got one of those like, holy crap, you can smell it candy stores.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's the best.
Em Schulz: I do like those.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but I can't get into the taffy.
Christine Schiefer: The taffy is not it for me.
Em Schulz: Anyway, so it's, it's interesting watching my mom flounder because she's trying to put together a beach trip for the family where nobody wants to do anything beach, like [laughter] it is so...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like a weird reality show, like a competition show. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's gonna be a lot of, I don't know, restaurants. My only request was like, whatever the cheesiest, most awful mini golf she can find is, I wanna do that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Oh, that'll be fun.
Em Schulz: Everything else I will, even if I'm not having like the best time, I'm gonna smile through. 'Cause like, I know my mom's putting like hard effort into this, but if we don't have mini golf, I will become such an evil person, so...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh good.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, and I've tried so hard not to revert back to my teenage behavior because my mom will be there, but they'll come out if I don't get any golf.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, but your mom will be there so it will happen.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That is quite a reason. You were like, I don't have a reason, but here we are.
Em Schulz: But if I dig not too deep, we'll find it.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. If I just scratch the surface.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Right. No, I appreciate my mom trying, but it was like, try somewhere else next time too.
Christine Schiefer: Try somewhere else.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, I actually, there's, we, I think there's gonna be one day where we like get, get out of Hilton Head and just go to like another city nearby, which will be fun. We all like a good city, so.
Christine Schiefer: Love a good city.
Em Schulz: Anyway, Christine. That's why I drink. That's why you drink. Why do you all drink? Just kidding. I can't hear you through my headphones.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Ow. I can't hear you.
Em Schulz: So many voices. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: So loud. 12 full voices.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Mom?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I'm an ungrateful child who doesn't wanna go to the beach.
Em Schulz: Honestly, if that was the reason why she drinks this week, I don't blame her. I get it.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta take her out to a nice winery and it'll be great. Win-win.
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying. Like all of us, well, only one of us is not of drinking age, but I don't know why she didn't just pick something like that, but whatever. I went to a winery recently, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: You did?
Em Schulz: Had the best, the best...
Christine Schiefer: Seriously. Tell me.
Em Schulz: Sliders of my life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you were gonna say the best time of your life. I was like, wow...
Em Schulz: Not the best time.
Christine Schiefer: Sliders. Oh, where was the winery?
Em Schulz: It was in Charlottesville.
Christine Schiefer: Oh nice.
Em Schulz: It was a big winery area. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Sounds delightful.
Em Schulz: Wow. They had sliders that I still can't stop thinking about. Oof. Anyway, ready for a scary story? I don't know how to segue out of that. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think you did it perfectly. I wouldn't have even noticed.
Em Schulz: Speaking of sliders, let's slide into a scary, spooky stories.
Christine Schiefer: There it is. You nailed it.
Em Schulz: Umm, we're talking about a seminary today.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ah! You know, I get creeped out by this.
Em Schulz: It's called the Madison Seminary.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Which made me think, oh, it's gonna be in Madison, Wisconsin.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It's not.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, Madison's also just a name, which I need to remember more often. Umm, it is in Ohio.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Lake County.
Christine Schiefer: It's in Madisonville? Probably not.
Em Schulz: That would be very convenient.
Christine Schiefer: That'd be too on the nose. Lake County, uh, theres so many places in Ohio where I'm like, it sounds so generic. I have no idea. Oh, it's up by, uh, Cleveland.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: The mistake by the lake.
Em Schulz: Oh, is that what it's called?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I'm sure they wouldn't like that, but yes. [laughter] That is, that's the official name of Cleveland.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The mistake by the lake. What a, oh, I just, I just heard something, I just need to stop talking immediately. [laughter] There's something so funny I just thought of a couple days ago and now I won't remember it. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool. Good story.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What'd you say yesterday? Quit bragging. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Quit bragging. Lisa Lampanelli Original.
Em Schulz: Okay, so Lake County, Ohio. I know with Virginia, I like, in California, if it's in Northern California, I've never heard of it.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And in West Virginia, if it's on that little skinny tip, I've never heard of it.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that funny? Uh, yeah. I mean, and Lake County just sounds so generic.
Em Schulz: Like, like an author wrote that as a filler for now.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Em Schulz: All right. Well, in Lake County, Ohio, the Madison Seminary was established in 1847, and the seminary was inside of a very small cottage that was used to host classes for men and women. Umm, the whole thing was a cottage. The whole seminary was a cottage.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, tiny house, tiny school. I bet there was technically a one-room schoolhouse.
Christine Schiefer: One room. I was just thinking, I'm like, I'm waiting for you to say it.
Em Schulz: Ooh. You know, I love a one-room schoolhouse.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I sure do.
Em Schulz: Actually, I have nothing to do today after this. So I think maybe I'm gonna go look for one. That's, look at me just planning things in the moment.
Christine Schiefer: You just mean like...
Em Schulz: I'm so avant-garde.
Christine Schiefer: You are so quirky and eccentric and original. Umm, but my heart did kind of do a little jump when you said that. 'cause that sounds so fun. And I can't wait to hear about it.
Em Schulz: My therapist, I, I said something about being eccentric and she went, "Let's unpack that next week." And I went, "Oh no."
Christine Schiefer: No. Why would you say, she's like, "Oh-oh," the, the E word came out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I also told her that I hate the E word. And she was like, "Interesting. We'll unpack that." And I went, "Ah, I shouldn't have said anything."
Christine Schiefer: Should have kept your mouth shut.
Em Schulz: Uh, okay. So 1847 it's established and in 1859, so 12 years later, the student body has grown to 150 people. I don't run a school...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my goodness.
Em Schulz: That feels slow. I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like that's a lot in a cottage.
Em Schulz: Okay. In a cottage, yes. The cottage is overwhelmed.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I am not at the number of student...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you are not impressed.
Em Schulz: Of student body after 12 years, only a 150.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, 12 years. Yeah.
Em Schulz: 150 people in 12 years, that's like, not even 15 people or 10 people a year.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was the total number? I thought it was like by 12 years they had that many in one class.
Em Schulz: Oh, maybe that is it.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: That'd make more sense.
Christine Schiefer: Slightly.
Em Schulz: At any rate, umm, to them business was booming and so...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Good for them. [laughter]
Em Schulz: They had to build a boarding hall and attach it to this. I don't know if it's attached or if it's just next to the cottage. But they have a boarding hall now so people are living there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In 1891, uh, the seminary is now being donated to the Ohio Women's Relief Corps to house former army nurses and female relatives of the... The Civil War soldiers.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, and that included sisters mothers widows. And I guess I don't know enough about that era but it wouldn't surprise me if like... If your soldier dies and you can't... You need someone to help you live or to... You need to move somewhere...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Because they're not there to help pay rent or whatever. That's what the seminary was used for. For them to move in.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That makes sense.
Em Schulz: Uh, so this is how legislators agreed to help women who were displaced by the war. And this was before there was a VA or a social security.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm so this was their... Their way. Their way of helping. Eventually the seminary became the home of the National Relief Corps and was renamed the Madison Home instead of the Madison Seminary.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: And the home expanded over time to... See this is the type of businesses boom that I'm talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: 12 years, you're actually... Your thought of like maybe it's 150 per year is different. This one sounds more fancy-schmancy.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: They had to expand, uh, eventually to 32,000 square feet of housing and had to create almost 100 dorms.
Christine Schiefer: 32... Like that is a jump. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Business is...
Christine Schiefer: A-booming.
Em Schulz: Boom.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, the most famous resident here was Elizabeth Stiles, umm, who was not related to Harry Styles, and I said most...
Christine Schiefer: What about, uh...
Em Schulz: What? What?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Ryan Stiles. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Ryan Stiles? I haven't heard that name in a long time.
Christine Schiefer: I literally brought him up like five days ago and someone was like, what a reference.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why he's in my mind.
Em Schulz: What an obscure name to say.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Ryan Stiles, his whole feelings are so hurt right now. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I'm like who's Julia Stiles? I'm talking about Ryan Stiles.
Em Schulz: And not Harry Styles, God forbid. No...
Christine Schiefer: No, Harry styles. Harry Styles. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh yes, the most...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I love Ryan Stiles.
Em Schulz: Wow. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I love... Whose line is it anyway it's my favorite show. [laughter] Can you just keep going?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You got me. Flummoxed, that was the word you used earlier? Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Flummoxed. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. Most famous resident was maybe Ryan Stiles' ancestor Elizabeth Stiles.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's...
Em Schulz: Who...
Christine Schiefer: Pretty Cool.
Em Schulz: Was a Civil War spy. And her and her husband were vocally anti-slavery...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: But, umm, Confederate sympathizers did not like that and executed her husband.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: She saw them execute him.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no.
Em Schulz: And she would have been executed herself but she was too pretty to shoot.
Christine Schiefer: Oh there's so much wrong with all of the above.
Em Schulz: If we were to dive in we... We would not leave for a while so.
Christine Schiefer: We'd never come out. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So they spared her and her children.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Umm, and I don't know what happened between then and the rest of the story but apparently President Lincoln himself recruited her to become a spy. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh this was... So she became a spy after...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Her husband died. Ohh I thought they were both spies.
Em Schulz: Uh, her and her husband... No they were not both spies. They were just...
Christine Schiefer: Were just anti slavery.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: And I don't, I don't know how she ran into President Lincoln. I don't know how he looked at her and said you're gonna be one good spy. I don't know what happened but he recruited her himself.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And she was very good at it. She was so good at it that one time she got caught and arrested and convinced the confederate officer that she was actually a rebel spy on their side.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And he released her, gave... And gave her his own horse and a better gun. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm loving this lady right now.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She said I'm going to take my pretty looks and do what I need to with them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. Good for her.
Em Schulz: Uh, but yeah she was apparently just a really good spy. And...
Christine Schiefer: Did I cover her on... At a live show once?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Like it sounds so familiar. Like I definitely covered a spy who would like travel in the south and talked her way out of a bunch of stuff but it could have been a different, a different person. Umm, anyway I'm just wondering.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I believe no. But I also...
Christine Schiefer: I believe it's... I...
Em Schulz: I'm just fucking guessing.
Christine Schiefer: I also believe probably not. Umm...
Em Schulz: It'd be a spooky coincidence wouldn't it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I bet there's probably more than one spy. [laughter]
Em Schulz: There might... There just might be. The only one I know...
Christine Schiefer: There might be.
Em Schulz: Is like Jason Bourne.[laughter] Other than that, never heard of a spy in my life. Umm, so and that... Anyway she was the most famous resident to live there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In 1904 the Madison Home lost its funding and the state took it over and renamed it the longest name I've ever known in my entire life. Umm, the... It's called The Home for Ohio Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Their Wives, Mothers, Widows, and Army Nurses.
Christine Schiefer: You were not kidding. I thought halfway through we were done.
Em Schulz: I don't... How do you even etch that into stone?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God that's... Seriously it's like they kept saying oh what about XYZ? Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I appreciate how inclusive they were trying to be but I'm sure one word could have done just that you know? Like...
Christine Schiefer: And then what if you forget one at the end and now you're like, well, shit.
Em Schulz: It's the... The acronym. I tried to spell out an acronym with it...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And that still didn't work. It's HOSSMTWMWAN.
Christine Schiefer: HOSSMTWMWAN.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There, yeah. Yeah. It's Chauncey Bliss's favorite word.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So the facility had issues. It just sounds like every time someone gets this property, there's problems. Umm, the facility had issues and then in 1953, the state had to hold a year long investigation over rumors of sexcapades.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: And parties among the staff, umm, who were taking care of Ohio Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Their Wives, Mothers, Widows, and Army Nurses. So.
Christine Schiefer: And Chauncey Bliss.
Em Schulz: And Chauncey Bliss. So they ended up having to get new management because I guess the prior staff was having too good of a time.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And in 1962, the home belongs to the Ohio Department of Mental Hygiene and Corrections.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that sounds like a very scary...
Em Schulz: That sounds like One Flew Out of the Cuckoo's Nest or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I don't, like, I don't wanna be part of it. I don't want them knocking on my door. Let's put it that way.
Em Schulz: The Department of Mental Hygiene and Corrections.
Christine Schiefer: Ooffa doofa.
Em Schulz: Oof. I just feel like anyone who works there is a piece of shit.
Christine Schiefer: Mental hygiene. I just feel like they're gonna like scrub my brain with a lobotomy.
Em Schulz: That's what I think. And maybe it's just actually like a lovely, lovely therapist who all she caress about is saving people and helping them out.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "Let's talk about eccentricity." And I'm like, "No!" [laughter]
Em Schulz: Let's unpack that next week. [laughter] Umm, so anyway, the, they, it now belongs to them, this building. And the remaining older residents who lived there before it became the Department of Mental Hygiene, they were returned to their families or moved to nursing homes, so that way they could just start out clean with new people coming in.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: The home was renamed by the Department of Mental Hygiene as Opportunity Village.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That sounds the, like the most sinister pleasant ville bullshit I ever heard. Like the Mental Hygiene Association is like, I know they'll never, they'll never undercut under...
Em Schulz: It sounds like it could be like a nickname for like, uh, like the United States trying to be all the American Dream. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Welcome to Opportunity Village or like...
Christine Schiefer: It's like one of those VHS tapes they would put in like, welcome to your first day on the job.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You may be wondering how you ended up in Opportunity Village. It's like something sinister about that.
Em Schulz: No, it feels really dark for no reason at all.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And again, there's probably just some lovely occupational therapist who just really wants to like, live out her dream of helping people.
Christine Schiefer: She's just like hand painting, like Opportunity Village on a thing and we're just being such assholes about the name.
Em Schulz: It's like, ma, I got it. The job at Opportunity Village. I've always wanted it. I've always wanted.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm packing up, ma. Our lives are about to change.
Em Schulz: I'll see ya. I'll see ya. I will.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is happening?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That'd be taken over by Opportunity Village.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, that's getting sucked in.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, we lost a good one.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So anyway, it was renamed Opportunity Village and someone had to talk like that.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, [laughter] and so it ended up housing psychiatric patients that were overflow from the Cleveland State Hospital.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: Cleveland State Hospital. Umm, so by doing this Opportunity Village became an extension of, I, I don't totally understand the, I don't know enough about the logistics of this, but there were patients in Cleveland State Hospital. There were too many of them, so they're now going over to Opportunity Village. But by doing this, the building became an extension of the Apple Creek Institution, and I wonder if that's like the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I wonder if that was like they worked with the Cleveland State Hospital or in some way...
Christine Schiefer: Like how they came in, like you don't know how they came in to play.
Em Schulz: Yeah. In, in some way all three of them are connected to each other. Umm, maybe there's the Apple Creek Institution and that institution is at Cleveland State Hospital?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I don't know, but all three of them are working together. Opportunity Village housed women specifically who, uh, were mostly independent but couldn't live completely on their own so they just had some additional needs.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, and it also housed women from the Ohio Women's Reformatory who did occupational therapy to transition back into the public.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, there were rumors around town of patient abuse and even one woman being murdered.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I miss the sexcapades rumors. Those were more fun.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You should just cut the original stuff. They know how to throw down.
Christine Schiefer: They were having a good time.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It sounds like everyone was having a good time at Opportunity Village.
Christine Schiefer: Amen.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] And so, uh, unfortunately, Opportunity Village closes because of these rumors of abuse.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And eventually through the '80s, the building becomes multiple things, including a police department and an office, administration offices. And that being said, now we're all the way into the '80s and '90s and ghosts have been a thing ever since the beginning of time since it was a seminary. Umm, ghosts have been rumored to be here all the way back then. I guess at one point, uh, when students lived on campus there, or in the little cottage, they had a doctor's office, umm, that they built for the students. And there was a ghost that used to show up in the office.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And would move objects around and interact with patients.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I don't like that.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder why, like, I wonder how they ended up there.
Em Schulz: Especially because with renovations, I feel like you stir up old stuff, but this feels like all like maybe it appeared with the building.
Christine Schiefer: Like brand new. Yeah, that's very bizarre.
Em Schulz: But so it like, maybe it felt crowded with the walls around it. Maybe it was just, it like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe it was like someone who'd lived on the land before and then was like, ooh, a house. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I remember those. I had one.
Christine Schiefer: I had one of those.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So they would move objects. Umm, it would touch people and when the building was used as an office space, employees would see doors open and close lights and sinks turn on by themselves. Uh, they'd hear footsteps in the hallways and they would always feel themselves being watched.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh
Em Schulz: But my favorite thing about this time is that there was a ghost who would in front of everybody pick up. Their phone, the office phone...
Christine Schiefer: [snorts][laughs]
Em Schulz: And it would dial numbers.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] What? [laughter] Is this like a rotary phone?
Em Schulz: I guess so. Yeah. It would just... But apparently people saw this.
Christine Schiefer: It just liftss...
Em Schulz: And then they would...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: And it wouldn't hang up. So it would just dial people and then leave the phone there and you would now have to talk to people. It's literally your phone anxiety's nightmare.
Christine Schiefer: That's my nightmare. Yeah. That's my nightmare. That's like a ghost who's trying to torture me. Umm, it's just like, now you have to explain why you called. Haha.
Em Schulz: And they would have to. Apparently they'd all have to be like, "I'm sorry, I didn't actually mean to call you."
Christine Schiefer: It was the ghost. You get it.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: My nightmare.
Em Schulz: I could totally see Harry in your house, just picking up your phone and butt dialing someone for you and then just leaving it open. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I, don't give him any ideas. Oh, I forgot to tell you, I think I saw a ghost yesterday. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Shut the fuck up, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not kidding. And I, it's never happened before, but in the past couple weeks I kept, you know that thing where you're like, something out of the corner of your eye and you're like, I don't like that. And it's been happening a lot the last few weeks. And since I moved in, it was not ever an issue. Umm, but, so it's been happening more. And then yesterday I was sitting in my office chair while my brother was trying to fix something over here on the mixer. And like, literally the door was open, like cracked open pretty far. And I just saw somebody like walk up to the doorway outta the corner of my eye and then just keep walking into the bathroom. And I was like, I swear to God, my whole body like froze.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, "I'm gonna look to the right. There's not gonna be anybody there." So I forced myself to look and there was nobody there. And I was like, "I have to pee." And I got up and looked in the bathroom. Of course nobody there, but I'm telling you like a tall person walked past.
Em Schulz: Did he, did he stop, pause and like look at you?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like paused in the doorway. And I was like, "Oh." So I was like, "Well, it's taller than Blaise."
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I, and my brother was obviously... I could see him, so it was not him, but I was like, "I don't... " That's the first time that's ever happened here." So I don't know what it means.
Em Schulz: That's some insidious shit. The...
Christine Schiefer: Is it like getting more...
Em Schulz: Stronger?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't know.
Em Schulz: It's moments like that where if I ever see something in the corner of my eye every time my, my gut feeling and and not not a real gut feeling, but my fabricated one to make me feel like be able to sleep at night is I tell myself, oh, I just caught a time traveler.
Christine Schiefer: That's almost scarier to me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But I always pretend it's me...
Christine Schiefer: Because I'm like why...
Em Schulz: I'm time travelling.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. 'Cause I'm like, why are you in my house, time traveler? Get out.
Em Schulz: No, no. If if I ever see something in the corner of my eye, I'm like, ooh, I almost busted myself. Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I could do that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then that way I am like, I knew. You had...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was you, 'cause it was really tall.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Maybe I went...
Christine Schiefer: It could be you...
Em Schulz: Maybe I was on a mission and I was like, "Oh shit, I got spotted." And I had to flee and then you went looking for me in the bathroom, but I already left.
Christine Schiefer: And you need to be much more, uh...
Em Schulz: Careful, I know. I'm...
Christine Schiefer: Careful. 'Cause I can't live like this.
Em Schulz: I'm really bad at it over here too. I just... I keep almost getting busted.
Christine Schiefer: Stop. You're freaking me out.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I keep waiting for the day that I'll finally be recruited to be a time traveler. So that way we can get these missions...
Christine Schiefer: You can confirm it? Yeah. You can be like, "Oh, it was me all along."
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And I didn't tell my brother and I was like, I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut. But once you just said Harry, I was like, oh, maybe that was him. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe us talking about him is like opening something up, so maybe we shouldn't do it.
Christine Schiefer: I know, that's what I'm worried about, then I don't stop [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well I'll follow your lead.
Christine Schiefer: I Just, I clearly can't stop myself. So.
Em Schulz: As long as he doesn't disturb my naps, I'm, we're in the clear him and me. So.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's what you were trying to do in your time traveling. You were trying to check on your nap spot, which is right in here.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's...
Christine Schiefer: It was not available.
Em Schulz: To this day, I don't think I've ever known a better nap spot in my life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! I wanted to add real quick, speaking of ghosts, that, umm, y'all were right. There was some weird, did you hear about the audio issues in, uh...
Em Schulz: I heard about it, but I haven't heard the actual audio issue.
Christine Schiefer: The Listener episode.
Em Schulz: But it's been taken out now, right?
Christine Schiefer: It's been taken out. People were messaging me like, you really, you really got me good? And I was like, what? And like people thought we were pranking them...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because at the end when it was like me talking about how I deal...
Em Schulz: The dolls. Right?
Christine Schiefer: The dolls. And so it was a Listener episode and near the end, like all the audio is totally fine near the end I start talking about like, "This is what I would do with the doll." And all of a sudden my voice turns into this like bizarre echoey, like, it's almost like my voice is layered on top of itself.
Em Schulz: [sucks teeth] Ah!
Christine Schiefer: And Eva and Jack, our editor, went back and listened to the original before he exported it. And it sounds completely normal. So it was just the exported version had this weird...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like several minutes of me talking in like a creepy double layer. Umm, and so people thought we were like pranking them and I was like...
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, wasn't me. Umm, and Eva...
Em Schulz: Uh, and that was, we talked about PTD in that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And I said, I'm not scared to say her name and, uh.
Em Schulz: Who said that?
Christine Schiefer: I did 'cause I'm idiot.
Em Schulz: Well. You're stupid.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: And Look at that. My voice was fine. Look at that.
Christine Schiefer: Your voice was fine. Umm, and so just FYI folks, we were not, that was not intentional [laughter] I don't know what happened.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Eee!
Em Schulz: Well, anyway, yeah, there are dolls out there. Apparently there's time travelers out there, Christine, seeing things in her house. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: It's a tough time.
Em Schulz: Well, once, once the ghost starts to, umm, pick up your phone for you and start calling and [laughter] start calling people and not hanging up, that's when you really need to like bring an exorcist in.
Christine Schiefer: Shit.
Em Schulz: So that was happening here. Uh, the office phones are getting picked up and staff had to then explain to people why they were calling.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, a nightmare.
Em Schulz: Also, many people saw a woman in the upstairs hallway and also started seeing her in the upstairs window from outside.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. No, no, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: A Cleveland news station tried to actually film a piece on this place, but their cameras all stopped working at the exact same time.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she is a good spy.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she is like, "What are you doing now?"
Christine Schiefer: She's like, I can disable your equipment.
Em Schulz: Well, other recording equipment, uh, started also freaking out.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And just like how no one was actually calling anyone on those phones and a ghost was doing it, no one was pressing record on a lot of this equipment yet, but the equipment would start recording all by itself, random conversations that the crew was having.
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: And then it would stop recording, play back, like rewind, and then press play. So that way people could...
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: Hear their voices being recorded.
Christine Schiefer: Do you wonder if maybe they were saying an EVP and they were like, listen back.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: You said something into the tape.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's genius, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I would be a very advanced ghost, don't get me wrong. But...
Em Schulz: To even have the awareness of an EVP to then say...
Christine Schiefer: I can talk into this.
Em Schulz: I left you a message in here.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I don't, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Or maybe it was like, now you're the EVP.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right, here it's you talking about...
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's, that freaks me out for, for the ghost to have knowledge on how to use a recording equipment.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then play it back for you.
Christine Schiefer: And what year was this that they were filming? Or they were trying to do a documentary? Was this like in the tape days? Like...
Em Schulz: I think in the... I think in the late '80s, early '90s.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So it would've been like a quite a to-do to start recording. You have to like put a proper tape in. And...
Em Schulz: Also, what if you don't bring enough literal film back then?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like what if it like, takes away your ability to film? [chuckle] You know?
Christine Schiefer: That sucks.
Em Schulz: Umm, an anchor, uh, actually started trying to film there. Saw the equipment starting on its own because the crew wasn't ready yet. And she freaked out. And she ran off...
Christine Schiefer: Ahh!
Em Schulz: Because it just freaked her out so much. And as she ran off seconds later, right where she was standing, a window pane blew out of the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. What? That's scary.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's dangerous.
Em Schulz: One student that worked there actually quit their job because they kept hearing voices telling them to leave.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Employee...
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'd be like, you got it dude.
Christine Schiefer: Bye.
Em Schulz: Employees would hear children playing when no one was there. And the sound of people in the halls when there was nobody there got so loud that it started setting off the police alarms.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: One electrician working there. Saw a woman with dark eyes and dark hair and a white nightgown floating off of the floor and she charged at the electrician, chased him away into a hallway and then vanished.
Christine Schiefer: There's something about like them charging at you.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so bad.
Em Schulz: It, it's, it's I don't like it.
Christine Schiefer: I'm still haunted by the story you told yesterday or last week for people listening where the guy's consciousness moved to the person who crossed the room and then ran toward himself.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Ugh. Like you know...
Christine Schiefer: It's gonna haunt me forever that story.
Em Schulz: You know, something was looking at you and charging at you and wanted you to see it from its perspective.
Christine Schiefer: Ho, like, horrifying. Like, the goosecam central.
Em Schulz: Ugh. So in 1993, the building went up for rent again. And the ad for it said, "For rent. Historic building on Middle Ridge Road can be leased cheap. Caution building may be haunted."
Christine Schiefer: Wink. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like if it, you're trying to sell this place and you're trying to pitch it and you already have to give a warning that it might be haunted. Girl read through the lines. It is haunted.
Christine Schiefer: Just lean into it, you know? Be like, it's haunted as fuck. We're not gonna lie to you.
Em Schulz: It's so haunted, and this is us soft-launching that to you?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Soft-launching. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In, in 1998, the building was sold to a private owner and people just started doing investigations on the ground. So as of '98, it's pretty much just for investigations.
Christine Schiefer: Ghosties.
Em Schulz: Today its main use is paranormal investigations.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: And it's said that, quote, "No one leaves disappointed."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] I wanna go.
Em Schulz: You're a mess. After everything I just said. You're like, pack up. We gotta go.
Christine Schiefer: Immediate. Immediate. Let's go.
Em Schulz: You forgot everything we just talked about, about how we... The phone thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: The phone. That alone.
Christine Schiefer: That's the magic of, uh, of my brain. It's very good at compartmentalizing. So I don't remember any of that.
Em Schulz: I wonder if the ghosts have kept up with how equipment works.
Christine Schiefer: The times. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like do you think you need to bring an analog recorder for them to turn it on? Or do you think they can do it with like an infrared camera?
Christine Schiefer: Great question. So when we go, we should bring like a tape recorder 'cause that's like the old school, you know?
Em Schulz: A recorder of a recorder to record us recording.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Eva? She get... Catch that?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So when the building was a hospital, everyone lived on site. And one of the popular ghosts there was a nurse, or one of the most popular ghosts today is a nurse who lived and worked there around that time. And he's said to be super tall and is usually seen peeking around doors into former patient's rooms as if he's doing check-ins.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] That's kind of what it felt like here. Like a tall figure, kinda like looked in and then kept walking. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Like, you good?
Christine Schiefer: I... I'm not usually. So he has a lot of work to do.
Em Schulz: He is very, this tall figure is very possessive of his old room. And today people do not like going into his space because they feel something eerie there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I get it. Listen, I'm not a guard. You don't want me there, fine.
Em Schulz: It's always, weird to me when someone says like, oh, and he likes to peek around corners. 'Cause in my mind there's like kind of a lunge to that where he's like, kind of, it's a little too aggressive and it, I am, I imagine I'd be really startled if I saw someone like come out from behind a door that wasn't supposed to be there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it's also like the way it's worded as peeking, it feels like just their top half kind of comes into view...
Em Schulz: Yeah, eugh, forget it.
Christine Schiefer: Which is like somehow so much creepier.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't wanna, I don't want your full body to be here, but also where is it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Don't get me wrong, [laughter] but also I'd like to know that it exists.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And so it's interesting that it seems like, oh, it's just checking in as if he's a doctor and it's not harmful or scary at all, but don't go in his room.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Hmm, hmm.
Em Schulz: This ghost is usually very friendly, or at least non-threatening, but has been known to be hostile towards people, umm, who bother him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. God. [laughter] Okay.
Em Schulz: So he's like, I won't act unless provoked.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't like that.
Em Schulz: In 2016, the owner began turning rooms into time capsules by restoring them to their former glory which made the ghosts even more active.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, actually, I kinda love that.
Em Schulz: Me too.
Christine Schiefer: That's a cool, and that, I feel like that's cool to just even visit, you know, to see it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, to at least know like, oh, what it looked like at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like your one-room schoolhouse back in its full glory. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I can't even think about it. Elizabeth Stiles the famous spy, she died in the house and now haunts the Whitten Meyer College... No, Whitten Meyer Cottage building.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: She floats around in her vintage dress. Okay, girl.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And she's eager to interact with investigators. So psychics have had full conversations with her and she will appear by choice to guests and staff. So not like a random manifestation you catch with your, like you catch by accident. She will at like free will just appear for you.
Christine Schiefer: She is a good spy even now in the afterlife.
Em Schulz: Always in hiding until she wants to make her move. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I am impressed. I am, I kind of wanna go here.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Take me, take me to there, please?
Em Schulz: We can go. We can go.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: We can go.
Christine Schiefer: Eva, write, write down this timestamp.
Em Schulz: But only if Elizabeth Stiles is there because she seems like a real homie.
Christine Schiefer: I would love to chat with her.
Em Schulz: She alleges... No, no. She allegedly likes the furniture improvements and has moved into her favorite room. Umm, I saw one of the sources said that she has vocally given her opinion about the furniture. And I'm like, what does that mean?
Christine Schiefer: Vocally? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm like, also if...
Christine Schiefer: She's like, next, next.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say yeah, that could mean she gives the thumbs up or she is very vocally not interested in it.
Christine Schiefer: Not about it. Mid, mid-century modern. Not her thing.
Em Schulz: Not her thing. When, uh, furniture was being put into the cottage for the first time, another spirit of a woman appeared who now is also seen walking around. So I guess she liked the furniture and it kind of brought her back.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. So she just was like, boop, here I am nice sofa.
Em Schulz: Ope! That chair was all it took this entire time for me to get here.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's so weird. Maybe it was a fainting couch. She's like finally somewhere for me to rest.
Em Schulz: A daybed, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I know you love a daybed.
Em Schulz: If something happens to me and you don't keep a pillow in your nap section for me at all moments.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, hello. Yeah.
Em Schulz: We're gonna have a problem.
Christine Schiefer: Although I'm facing it while we record. So if you, something happens to you and you just like appear right behind my laptop, [laughter] it's not gonna be good for my mental health, but.
Em Schulz: Uh, you'll, me haunting your house at best is just me hanging out with Gio and you'll hear snores from that corner.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's true. It's not gonna be anything that insidious.
Em Schulz: Any yummy food will be opened in your pantry.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Leona's gonna love it. She'd be like, it wasn't me.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, uh, also this is interesting though because it sounds like once the renovations happened and they were restoring it all of a sudden more ghosts, it became more active.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I'm wondering, are the ghosts that were there, that we knew about already, did they become a heightened in power or did we accidentally like bring people from the other side back to become ghosts?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Were they like laying low and they were just like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In wait for the right daybed to appear? Or was it like, or what if they had some, if they're bringing in period pieces, like to furnish the place, what if they, some were attached to some of the furniture and they got brought.
Em Schulz: Ohh. So they've mo they're moving in.
Christine Schiefer: They're moving in.
Em Schulz: That makes the most sense to me because I, the idea of there being more ghosts in this house that just need one piece of furniture to ignite them. I don't need that.
Christine Schiefer: That's so alarming to ignite them, exactly. It's like, I don't like that they're like waiting to hatch out of their little, their little... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like they're just waiting for me to bring that one high chair in or something for them to start really getting it going. You know.
Christine Schiefer: The one high chair. Yeah. So I wonder if, uh, maybe they're attached to the furniture. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe. I, umm, uh, the one ghost with the boots in my room. He tried to show...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: He tried to show up last night.
Christine Schiefer: No. What happened?
Em Schulz: I just felt him. And I was, I just went, I waved my hands. I went, Nope, no. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We're too old for this shit. Now we're like, ugh, come on.
Em Schulz: I know him and I have been doing this tango for like 28 years and I'm like, I just went, Nope. Nope, I don't like that.
Christine Schiefer: I'm over it.
Em Schulz: And then I went two options here. You can stay in this room while I sleep and you don't bother me or go away. You can have the room back on Friday when I'm gone.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, perfect. Okay. And did he leave?
Em Schulz: Yeah, he went away.
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I think we've got an understanding at this point. I think...
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: Because now I'm probably the age his ghost has been this entire time, so maybe now we're peers?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he's like, "Hmm, finally you get all my aches and pains."
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm like, just leave me alone for like two seconds. Ah, okay. So these, these, the furniture has brought these new spirits in.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And when... So now there's a third spirit in this same cottage. So in the one cottage there's Elizabeth Stiles, the spy and she really started showing up because she liked when they started doing the restorations.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Then a whole second spirit that we didn't even know about showed up during the restorations 'cause she also liked the furniture. And now in the same cottage that they haunt, there's also a third spirit named Steven who is allegedly the son of a soldier's widow. And he died in that house in childhood.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. It's a little boy ghost, sad.
Em Schulz: But he's got two furniture enthusiasts there to help him. He's got Elizabeth Stiles...
Christine Schiefer: That's good.
Em Schulz: Another woman.
Christine Schiefer: He has cozy places to take a nap.
Em Schulz: They have a chosen family together.
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: He's apparently a real little cutie pie too because he's not shy and he likes appearing before people and he likes to play games and he is very happy here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Well, that's good.
Em Schulz: There's a ghost, uh, named Sarah who haunts the ward where patients lived. And some say she is a kid, but other people say that she is an older woman with dementia and just has kind of the memories of a kid.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh, interesting.
Em Schulz: But either way, she's very kind.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: Her room is set up to keep her happy and people bring her gifts and books and toys that she plays with and she does respond when spoken to and has said that she's happy.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, that's nice.
Em Schulz: Umm, in 2013 there was an article where a woman said that they were having issues with one of the dolls in the building.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Moving around by itself.
Christine Schiefer: Oughh. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: They would just find this doll...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what I expected but...
Em Schulz: I know like it could only be so many things at that point.
Christine Schiefer: Like, yeah, what happens next? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. They were saying like we can't keep this one doll from moving all over the building on its own.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, okay.
Em Schulz: The doll shows up in locked rooms.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no.
Em Schulz: He... The doll is found sitting in the hallways looking at you.
Christine Schiefer: Nah.
Em Schulz: And the doll is found looking out of windows from the outside of the building.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Which is worse. The doll or the woman in the window?
Em Schulz: The doll!
Christine Schiefer: For sure. Okay. I just wanna make sure that I'm following properly.
Em Schulz: Uh, a quote from the article, "If you ask me, the scariest thing about the place right now is that creepy doll. We can never... [laughter] We can never find it when we look for it. And yet a day later we'll discover it sitting at the bottom of the stairs where someone will see it."
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So it's also like hiding from people. This is so gross. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: No, it is. And it's like, I...
Christine Schiefer: It's... Just makes me so uncomfy.
Em Schulz: I'm like, is something possessing the doll or is there someone carrying the doll around as like a symbolic like oh, you can see this?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But you can see me popping around. Or do you think it's just like that little kid Steven and he's actually playing with the doll.
Christine Schiefer: Oh he's carrying it around. You're right. It could be his toy. I didn't think of that.
Em Schulz: Like it could be not meant to be threatening. And he doesn't even get that it's so fucking scary to us.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, I'm in the window and everyone's like, Ahh! [laughter] It could be like a total accident. [laughter] This poor kid. Oh no.
Em Schulz: I wonder if he was standing sitting next to the woman who was getting interviewed for that article. And he just heard the scariest thing about this house is that fricking doll and he's like, what?
Christine Schiefer: Oh so he hits the like record button. [laughter] He's probably hitting the buttons on the tape recorder too. I am starting to understand.
Em Schulz: The third floor, umm... Of what was the hospital is now said to be one of the bigger hotspots here. This is where patients with, umm, heavier... With more needs...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Lived. Umm, and some think that because these patients would have been the most vulnerable to abuse.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: That that's why their spirits are now the most active.
Christine Schiefer: That's sad.
Em Schulz: One male spirit here, uh, wants people to stay away from his room and will shove people out and does not like being questioned by investigators. Just doesn't want anything to do with them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And if he is one of the patients who lived here and dealt with patient abuse, can you blame him for wanting...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Strangers to not be in his room?
Christine Schiefer: No. I mean that's just probably traumatizing for him.
Em Schulz: Yes. Probably get the fuck out I don't know you. Umm, and many investigators who know to leave this room alone or to leave him alone and still go in there will leave with scratches on them.
Christine Schiefer: [sucks teeth] Ohh.
Em Schulz: Which like... I kind of respect those scratches though. I'm like, it doesn't sound like it's demonic. It sounds like you are not respecting boundaries and...
Christine Schiefer: You're in his space. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So what a shock consequences. Umm... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And meanwhile you're... I feel like this is a a lecture you're giving me after we walk out and you're like, "What a shock Christine. Consequences."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, "I know. You warned me."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I can't definitely add that into the, uh, the arsenal of things I just say to you when...
Christine Schiefer: You might have to. [laughter]
Em Schulz: When things go exactly as expected. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What was the... [laughter] What was that thing I used to say? I used to like put it on my little, uh, letter board. It was like, "Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. On the same floor, uh, is the spirit of another kid who was a patient here and he's said to be very friendly and communicative with equipment. And he gives a lot of EVPs which is nice.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, there are also spirits of twin boys who are peeking around corners at you. That is what I call...
Christine Schiefer: Twin?
Em Schulz: The shining.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Forget it.
Em Schulz: That's the shining.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Why is everyone peeking around the doors? God.
Em Schulz: Well, interesting that you say that because I don't... I can't explain the first one where he also creeps people out. But with the twins that are peeking at you. Many investigators...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Say that most of the spirits here are children. And they... A lot of children usually if they saw strangers in their home, they'd be really curious but shy to approach.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh. Aww.
Em Schulz: My next thought is that they would feed off of that and something dark could be posing as a child.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're trying to trick.
Em Schulz: So acting curious so you can like egg them on and say, no, come hang out with us. A la...
Christine Schiefer: It's... It's safe. Come in. Yeah. Inviting them.
Em Schulz: A la Queen Mary.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Ding, ding, ding.
Em Schulz: Dumbest... Dumbest night of my life. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of our own actions. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well look at that consequences. Yeah. [laughter] Uh, so some of these spirits will eventually come forward, but after some activity with equipment it'll kind of go stale again because kids would usually retreat back after some hesitation.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But of course there is something darker here. Umm, an entity made of combined multiple dark spirits.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, like a rat king. [laughter] That's where my brain goes.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like a rat king.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of. They're all intertwined.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So one psychic said that there are a few dark spirits who I guess formed an alliance...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no...
Em Schulz: And smushed into each other.
Christine Schiefer: Smushed together. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so there are two spirits that make up one dark spirit. The first spirit is one who abused patients.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And the other is the one who allegedly murdered a woman on the property.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. So these two assholes are like, woo-hoo, let's get together and form a team.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Sickos.
Em Schulz: So they combined into one really dark entity that people have experienced. And when seen by psychics, it appears as a shadow figure and it has split in two and run off in different directions.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ah, you just gave me goosecam. Oh no. It splits in two. I'm telling you. Oh. Oh. Everything about that is bad, bad, bad. You know I...
Em Schulz: What if both split off and charge you at the same time?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What if they come at you from different directions?
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord. I just like...
Em Schulz: What if instead it was like Elizabeth Stiles the spy, and instead of it being two evil spirits it was actually three spirits in a trench coat and she just kind of... [laughter] They would just kind of disassemble and run off when they got busted.
Christine Schiefer: And it's those... It's those twins and that little boy and they're like, oh no we've been caught.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And the doll is like the head of the spirit.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I was gonna say, oh, I don't think I realized that like shadow people, at least a lot of investigators think shadow people are like really dark entities. And I...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's what I heard too.
Christine Schiefer: I always thought like, oh, shadow person is just like some weird like interdimensional thing. But like, apparently the more I watch these ghost shows, the more people say, oh, shadow people are like usually inherently dangerous and dark. And I'm like, ahh. So that kind of lends credence to that, what you just said.
Em Schulz: I have always heard that... I mean, I've always gone off of like, if it doesn't want you to be afraid, then you're probably fine because it's trying to, but then again, that little fucking home girl at the Queen Mary, she didn't want us to be scared, you know?
Christine Schiefer: But we were kind of scared. So maybe...
Em Schulz: That was a little scared.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe it's like if you're gen, if you genuinely feel at peace.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: I mean, anytime I've seen a ghost with my eyes, luckily it was a good thing?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it always looked as the real person. So...
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: So maybe if it's only a shadow figure, if it doesn't want you to know its identity?
Christine Schiefer: I will say like the...
Em Schulz: It could be anything. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: The person that I saw in my doorway the other day was like a dark figure. Like it wasn't like a, like it, it was just like almost like a silhouette, like a dark silhouette. But I don't necessarily think it was like a shadow person, you know what I mean? Like in the traditional sense.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: I think I'm happy. Like ignorance is bliss in this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm, because if I see a shadow person, I want to have a little comfort that maybe it wasn't that evil?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Let's just go with that theory.
Em Schulz: Well, even if you don't run into that being or beings, a lot of people still feel like they're being watched in the rooms. They feel a heavy darkness in the rooms. And Madison Seminary is now a historical site and functions solely as a paranormal destination.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And on weekends people can do self-guided flashlight tours, self-guided by...
Christine Schiefer: Self-guided. They're like, we don't even wanna be part of it. Okay.
Em Schulz: Or you can book an overnight investigation. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And many people get responses when they ask questions to the spirits in forms of knocks, flashlight manipulation, detector fluctuations. Umm, it just seems that someone is always open to communicate with you. But, warning, because a lot of people have left with stomach pains feeling total dread, burning sensations, scratch marks on them being pushed, all that good stuff. So, umm, check it out if you want. That's the Madison Seminary.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord, Em, I feel like we should go there and do an overnight. It sounds like you get a lot of activity.
Em Schulz: Right. I think we should go, even if it's not for like the tour. I think we should go just to see what happens.
Christine Schiefer: I agree. Just to like take a little peek.
Em Schulz: Just a fun little peek sees.
Christine Schiefer: Aw. Umm, yeah, we'll see what Eva says. If Eva says no, then I guess we don't go. But... Mom? [laughter]
Em Schulz: It is, it is interesting that if whatever Eva says goes, if she goes...
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: I don't think so. It's like, oh yeah, I didn't think so.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't even have to be, I don't think so. It can just be like, Umm..., and then we'll be like, "Nevermind. You're right. Terrible idea."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, we're very good at, umm, if we don't get immediate enthusiasm...
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: We don't even wanna do it anymore.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Correct. We're like, yeah, you're right. We're not doing it. Nevermind we were wrong. And stupid.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'll unpack that next week of my therapist.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle] You have a lot to unpack next week. You might have to push that one a week.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy, Em, good story. I've never even heard of that. Umm, well, I have a wild one for you today, Em. This is the story of Lori Arnold aka the Queen of Meth.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I don't know about her, but I'm excited to.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't either. Umm, but there's apparently a new docuseries about her. Umm, so if anyone has seen that, it may sound familiar. Umm, so Lori Arnold, she was born and raised in Ottumwa, which is a small town in Iowa and was the middle of three with an older brother named Tom. And he definitely comes into play, and a younger brother named Scott. Uh, her parents had her brother Tom when they were just teenagers. And so they were not ready to raise children, umm, especially because their mom was a partier, lived like a pretty wild lifestyle. Umm, and so when Lori was three, her parents got divorced and a judge granted full custody of all three children, umm, to her mother, but then her mother relinquished custody to their father.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, she got full custody in the divorce and then relinquished it to their father. Umm, because she didn't want the responsibility of three children who were all under the age of four. And in retrospect, Tom, the oldest believes giving them up was the best thing she could have done for them because she just was not equipped to raise them and care for them.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so Lori grew up following her brother Tom around. He was only a year older than her and they were extremely close. Umm, she liked to like rough house, uh, wear jeans, hang out with the boys, in the '60s she was known as a tomboy type...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, who didn't adhere to the expectations of most girls her age, which, umm, you know, up until recently I feel like it was a very contr, not controversial, I don't know the right word, but like a hard pill for some people to swallow when little girls refuse to wear dresses. Umm.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Somehow it's still shocking to some people.
Christine Schiefer: Somehow it's still hard for people. But so in the '60s you can imagine this was like not cool with a lot of people.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, in an interview, Lori has said, "I walk like a truck driver. I cuss like a sailor and I fight like a man."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you know, she parties like an animal. I know she...
Christine Schiefer: Parties like an animal, that's for sure.
Em Schulz: She sounds like someone I wanna only go to parties with.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, she is also the Queen of Meth, so be careful.
Em Schulz: Oh. Nevermind.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I forgot. I forgot. I forget where we're heading every time. I always think...
Christine Schiefer: It's okay.
Em Schulz: That you're just describing someone I could vibe with. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: But I like it. 'Cause I feel like you close your eyes and let me just lead the way, you know, which is a very dangerous thing to let me do. So.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, you'll be like, and over there are the lava pits and over here is the...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oops!
Em Schulz: Oopsies. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, there's a cliff somewhere. Uh-oh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah. So, thank you for letting me lead the way. Anyway, when Lori was 9 years old, her dad married their next door neighbor, Ruth. And Ruth had two children from a previous marriage and then had two more children with Lori's dad, so now they're a family of seven. Lori butted heads with her stepmother Ruth, who wanted Lori to start wearing dresses and behaving more feminine. But L...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but Lori was very stubborn. She would hide her jeans and t-shirts somewhere outside the house, like under a bush, and then...
Em Schulz: Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: She would leave in a dress change in an alley on the way to school, [laughter] and head to school.
Em Schulz: Like the quintessential, like high school, what you see in a movie kind of thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Like, sure, I'll eat my lunch. Thank you. And then like, tossing it or something on your way to school.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Lori did pretty well in school. She played sports, she took accelerated classes, she got good grades, and her classmates remember her as being ambitious and calculating. So in, this is a wild story, Em. In seventh grade, Lori found out a girl was afraid to walk home because a bully picked on her every day on her route. So Lori told the girl she would walk her home every day to protect her from the bully.
Em Schulz: Aw!
Christine Schiefer: For the low, low price of $2 a day.
Em Schulz: Okay. See, that's what's up though. See, she said, I'll help you, you help me.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. With, and today with inflation, that's about $20 a day. So that's pricey for, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh damn! I didn't even think about inflation.
Christine Schiefer: A seventh grader. Lori had a reputation as a tough girl. So for the girl who was being bullied, it seemed like a great setup. Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, every day the girl would pay Lori $2 and Lori would walk her home and Lori would drop her off safe and sound, turn around and meet up with the bully and pay them half of the $2. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So they both got paid.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What! Oh my God. What, was even the reason?
Christine Schiefer: She was like paying the bully to intimidate this girl so that she could get paid to walk her home.
Em Schulz: Oh, I see.
Christine Schiefer: She's like created this whole racket.
Em Schulz: That's great. Oh, I didn't even...
Christine Schiefer: This is such a racket. Like, and she's in seventh grade. I mean...
Em Schulz: What a trip. I thought she was, I thought this was a legitimate bully and she was just paying the bully for no reason. That makes total sense that they were in on this together.
Christine Schiefer: No, she would turn around, meet up with a bully, and then they would go get hamburgers together. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I love that. Good for, good for you making a buck wherever you can.
Christine Schiefer: Listen. Make that paper, Lori. I don't know what to tell you, but, uh, she's, she's really an individual. So, when Tom was 15, he decided he missed his birth mom especially because he'd been hanging out at her house and she had no rules. So she let him drink, have his girlfriend over. And so he was like fuck this. I'm moving in with mom. She lets me do whatever I want. So at 15 years old, he moved in with her and Lori being 14 and really close to her brother followed and moved in with their mother as well. Unfortunately, things went downhill from here because her mom worked at the local Elks Club, which hosted frequent parties, and that meant 14-year-old Lori had to start working as a cocktail waitress. Uh, and her mom would provide her with diet pills...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: That would give her the energy to get through shifts. And from what I know about diet pills in the, you know, '70s, '80s is they're basically amphetamine, they're basically speed.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she was constantly around adults who were drinking and doing drugs, and she was on these, on basically speed and having to work as a cocktail waitress. So basically she matured very quickly. She missed a lot of school, and then she started dating a man who told Lori's mom, he was 18, but was actually 23. Uh, and keep in mind, she's 14.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So, this man who says he is 18, but is actually 23, had recently divorced his 15-year-old wife.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And so now is dating Lori. And meanwhile, Lori's mom had remarried a police officer, and this police officer went to threaten Lori's boyfriend and gave him an ultimatum saying you either marry Lori or you go to prison for statutory rape.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So this guy decided to marry Lori in 1974, and Lori's mom drove them across state lines to Missouri, where a 14-year-old could legally marry an adult.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So, Lori dropped out of eighth grade and moved in with her now husband, Bobby Rogers. And again, she's 14. So Lori's brother Tom said, " had this terrible feeling like her childhood was over, and whatever innocence she had. I got to be a kid. I got in a lot of trouble, but nobody made me marry an adult who was a serial pedophile."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he basically felt that their mother had almost served Lori up to a predator. And it basically destroyed Tom's relationship with his mother. Umm, and their relationship became openly hostile from that point on. And up until her death and onward, he still felt very, he felt a lot of animosity toward his mother for basically driving Lori to get married to this man. Umm, Bobby physically abused Lori, and after six months of marriage, she found out he was cheating on her with a 12-year-old.
Em Schulz: Cheating on her? Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I know the word goes...
Em Schulz: I know those aren't your words, your words, but whose?
Christine Schiefer: But yes. It's almost like, how do you even phrase that? Because cheating on her, they are married technically, but she is a child still.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And cheating with a 12-year-old is not, that's not what that is. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ooh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Big yikes. So Lori called Tom, her brother to pick her up, and she divorced Bobby. Umm. She tried to go back to school to finish eighth grade, but based on an IQ test, the state accelerated her right past ninth grade into 10th grade.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which was cool. But she still felt uncomfortable being at school. She felt like she was an adult. Now, she didn't fit in with the other teenagers. I mean, she'd been married and divorced. And now she's in 10th grade.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Like it's a bizarre scenario to be in. So Lori ended up dropping outta high school and getting her GED. When she was 16, she met a woman at a local club named Shirley, who ran a brothel and poker games out of her house.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So this woman, Shirley, took Lori in for several years and Lori said, "No, thank you. I don't wanna do sex work." So instead, Shirley had her do drug runs for her.
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good. So she would go to the pharmacy once a week and say, I'm here for Shirley's order. And she assumed Shirley had like connections with the pharmacist, and the pharmacist was like on the sly giving her like drugs.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But eventually, Lori actually figured out these drugs were just allergy pills that Shirley was selling as speed at the poker games.
Em Schulz: Which I wonder if she even judged that or if she was like, "Oh, another business woman, I see."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, you wanna know? 'Cause the next bullet says, "She thought it seemed like a good deal. So, she started doing the same thing." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, like after her...
Christine Schiefer: You nailed it.
Em Schulz: Her paying, paying the bully thing as like...
Christine Schiefer: Sort of like the ethics are wishy-washy, you know, to her, like, she's like, "Well."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "I don't know. No harm, no foul. [chuckle] Victimless crime." I feel like is where her mind was at.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Not quite true. But, umm, that's what she told herself. So, eventually Lori was friends with everyone in town. She had a reputation as a tough girl, but also friendly and outgoing. So she was like very engaging as a person. She was constantly partying, which kept exposing her to dangerous situations, uh, including a time when she was 18 and was sexually assaulted by two police officers.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, at the young, at this young age, she was already in quite a, quite a dangerous environment. Then she met a man named Floyd Stockdall. Now Floyd was the captain of the Grim Reapers Motorcycle gang. And if you research the Grim Reapers motorcycle gang, there are all these articles about them going away for like 150 years, like, uh, going to prison. They have quite a storied past, this gang.
Em Schulz: A collective rap sheet.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: A collective rap sheet that spans many miles. [giggle]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so this guy, the captain of the Grim Reapers Floyd, his nickname was Sin.
Em Schulz: Stop it. That's so cool.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I told, I told Allison I thought that should be her nickname, because it's like Sin...
Christine Schiefer: Sin?
Em Schulz: Allison is her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Sin! Oh, that's fun.
Em Schulz: And I was like, "If you're looking for a badass name, in my mind it's a, it's a whole long thing." But I'm convinced that her parents were Hell's Angels. I don't know why.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Evelyn?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes, in my mind, they're Hell's Angels. I don't know why.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And so I'm like, "Oh yeah." And we've talked to, she's got like her own like tough nicknames that we've like played around with, and I'm like, "I don't know. Sin is in your name." So.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's, it's pretty good. I used to call her Allisunflower, so I don't think that has quite the same ring to it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Imagine, imagine the, like the, the, like the movie Joker. Imagine the origin story of Allison Sunflower who becomes Sin.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My name was Christinethemum, and Jordan's was Jordandelion. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Remember last week when I thought I was unwell? I was a little mentally unhinged.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Listen, you know, I was just riding that train with you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, anyway, so she meets Sin, uh, aka Floyd. And with a name like Floyd, I imagine Sin is like, you know, a little bit.
Em Schulz: Makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: It makes sense. Umm, and so he was 16 years older than Lori. Uh, but they, they got together. Umm, the Grim Reapers. They were drug runners. They were taking advantage of these socioeconomic issues in Ottumwa. Umm, and times in town were very hard. And basically when people feel, oftentimes when people feel, umm, like they're at a socioeconomic disadvantage, there's like any sort of depression in the area, uh, a lot of people turned to drugs. And Floyd was in this business. So, Floyd made Lori feel safe. Uh, they got married in 1980. They had a son together in 1981 named Josh. And they did not have it easy. Uh, Floyd was a Vietnam veteran living on unemployment, and they often didn't have heating or food. And sometimes when Floyd got drunk, he would come home and beat Lori. And the way Lori put it is she felt like she was too smart to be struggling so much.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she felt like she had gotten herself into, and, and not to say people who are struggling are stupid or, you know, not smart enough...
Em Schulz: Right. But, that's how she felt?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But that's how she felt. And I think part of it was like she felt like she got herself into this abusive situation by marrying this guy and relying on him, but not feeling secure uh or safe.
Em Schulz: Sure, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Because he beat her.
Em Schulz: His name is Sin.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? Yeah. So yeah. Kind of what you see on the package. Umm, so one day Floyd's brother approached Floyd and Lori and he said, "Hey, I found this new drug, it's called meth."
Em Schulz: I can't even imagine being there for that conversation. Now knowing what meth is.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fly on the wall. Like oh-oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: When she went from like, like selling allergy pills to like...
Christine Schiefer: Literally allergy pills.
Em Schulz: I've heard about meth.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's such a downward tumble. Yeah. So he gave them three and a half grams of the meth and told them to split it into 1/4 grams and sell each 1/4 gram for $25. As an end result, Lori was allowed to keep $150 as profit. And because Lori was so social and friendly, she easily sold all 3 1/2 grams in one night at one bar.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Like, just handle it.
Em Schulz: Little hustler.
Christine Schiefer: Little hustler. And wouldn't you know, meth was a local hit.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. Headlining in Ottumwa, uh, people in town remember becoming addicted after using it only once, which I've also heard is, uh, sometimes what happens, you try it once and it's, uh...
Em Schulz: Part of your bloodstream or something?
Christine Schiefer: So invigor, invigorating and so intense that people almost immediately become dependent on it. Uh, one of Lori's friends said the feeling of the high was utopian.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: And that's what I've heard, man. It's supposed to be really good high. Be really careful folks. Uh, Ottumwa relied economically on the Hormel meat. Is that how you say that? Hormel? Hormel.
Em Schulz: That's how I say it.
Christine Schiefer: Hormel, can you say it?
Em Schulz: I say Hormel.
Christine Schiefer: Hormel. Okay. On the Hormel meat packing plant and slaughterhouses. Cute. Uh, which employed a lot of the town. So this was like the local industry, right? Lori's father and her brother Tom both worked there, but overtime wasn't allowed. So employees were being forced to work faster and faster. And this is like a meat processing plant and a slaughterhouse, like this is dangerous work. And so if you're being forced to finish your work in a certain amount of time, it becomes really dangerous. That's why in 1985, 1,500 Hormel workers went on strike throughout the country for fair wages and safer working conditions. Umm, it became such a heated debacle that the National Guard had to intervene.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: And the police even used tear gas to clear the strikers. Umm, the strikes then became protests and riots. Uh, the National Guard was using aggressive tactics against the strikers and then, get this, the company was able to legally fire all of the striking employees, and in the end, the negotia... Negotiations failed and almost everyone lost their jobs.
Em Schulz: Uhh!
Christine Schiefer: So, like the worst possible end result for a strike, just asking for some better wages and better, safer working conditions, you know?
Em Schulz: Cas.
Christine Schiefer: Too much to ask. Uh, so fuck Hormel, I guess. I... [laughter] You know, didn't know much about him before, but fuck that big time. Uh, so now in places with struggles, which I feel like I kind of touched on, umm, drugs often thrive because people are looking for a way to escape poverty, lack of healthcare, food insecurity, uh, even just mental health issues that are a result of socioeconomic downturns. And some people even thought of meth as helpful because it, they felt it cured their alcoholism. They didn't need to drink as much because they had meth now.
Em Schulz: Also, there was so little that we knew about it at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I imagine that, I mean, it probably just didn't feel much different than anything else that might have been working or, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's sort of like, well, I cut back on my drinking, which we know is really dangerous and...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Can kill you. And now I'm doing this meth thing.
Em Schulz: And now I'm just happy. Yeah.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Now the utopia has set in. Yeah. So exactly on that note, Lori could not stop moving meth. It basically sold as quickly as she got her hands on it. Uh, she and Floyd moved on from Mike as their supplier, Floyd's brother, and started working directly with a supplier in California who had connections with a Mexican cartel. So, she's like jumping up the ranks.
Em Schulz: Oof. She climbed that ladder.
Christine Schiefer: Real quick. She didn't climb it so much as she just like hopped on top.
Em Schulz: Right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't know how, but she...
Em Schulz: Leapt, leapt like Superman.
Christine Schiefer: One big leap.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, they frequently drove on three-day trips to California to move 10 pounds of meth at a time. And at this rate, Lori was making, get this, $200,000 a week in profit.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: She didn't have a bank account, so she was just stuffing cash in her walls of the house.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So, Lori remembers that she wasn't just addicted to meth, which she did deny, but she did partake. So, it's hard to say. Uh, she said she was also addicted to power and money. And the way she kind of reconciled this to herself was that she thought of herself as somewhat of a Robinhood type character. She started buying cars for her friends. She bought a bar and a 150 acre horse ranch, and she employed all her friends to give them jobs. She would buy up foreclosed houses at auctions and register them as low income Section 8 housing and then she would rent this out to her friends, who are usually single mothers on welfare. And then she would use the Section 8 payments from the government to pay off the mortgages and gift the house to the friends who were living in them. So, she was really like lifting up the people in her life who were struggling. Umm, people close to her saw her as a generous woman. Some even called her a savior. Umm, but the big elephant in the room that she decided to ignore was the havoc that the drugs she sold were wreaking in her community and throughout the state of Iowa. So, eventually moving meth from California became too risky. So Lori hired a chemist, built a laboratory in a trailer, and buried the trailer on her horse ranch. So you couldn't see it from an aerial view.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And I wrote, "It's giving, breaking bad... "
Em Schulz: Right, right. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like hiring your own chemist, uh...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hiding them underground and saying, make me meth.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And at this point, Lori was able to turn 10 pounds of meth into $400,000 because now...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: She's making the meth. She does, she's, there's no middle man, you know?
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So her chemist made several batches a week, and even though she's still considering herself this like heroic robin hood type, she made the chemist test every, every batch on himself.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God. This guy was so just fucking like, out of his mind.
Christine Schiefer: Out of his mind, or just stuck in this position. Uh, basically she made him check every single batch to make sure it wasn't bad. Umm, and she said that way it would kill him before it could kill her friends and neighbors. She just wanted her meth to be safe. [laughter] So.
Em Schulz: I guess that's good. I don't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Question mark. Yeah. Uh, Lori and Floyd at this point were moving enormous amounts of drugs throughout the midwest, and Lori was essentially the mastermind behind the whole Operation. Floyd, of course, being the muscle as someone named Sin probably was born to do. People were loyal to Lori as a friend and downright terrified of her husband. So they made quite a pair. Uh, the combination of those two, someone who's you trust and who's a friend to you, and then someone who is physically very scary, uh, meant people were keeping their secrets on the DL.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so they were able to hire their own friends as dealers, as distributors. They were able to pay truck drivers to move meth across state lines without anybody snitching. And Lori's younger brother described it, quote, "Like, people created the tech world in Silicon Valley, my sister created the meth world." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: She basically like kick started...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This whole thing. She at this point was so wealthy, she could buy anything she wanted. She owned tens of thousands of dollars in jewelry. She bought land, and this is all cash she has, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's all in the walls of her house. Like, she's not paying taxes on this.
Em Schulz: I forgot they're... It's in the walls of her house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] She bought land, property cars. She brought, she bought several planes like airplanes.
Em Schulz: Planes?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Woo.
Christine Schiefer: She kept making plans to set up some sort of legitimate business to leave the world of drugs, but she was both addicted to meth and to the money and power she had.
Em Schulz: I would be addicted to the money and power.
Christine Schiefer: How could you not? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's so, so intoxicating.
Christine Schiefer: To turn... Intoxicating. To turn from that to being like, okay, let's start a business from the ground floor and do everything by the book and pay taxes. Like...
Em Schulz: No thanks.
Christine Schiefer: I can see why that would be not appealing at all.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she lived like royalty, especially in Iowa, this small town in Iowa.
Em Schulz: But were people not wondering how she was doing that?
Christine Schiefer: Well, most people in town were involved. Like...
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: All their friends and family were like, part of this, you know?
Em Schulz: I would literally, the only reason, not the only reason I wouldn't do this. Oh my God.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You got one reason. Go. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The only reason in this minute is that I would not be able to sleep every second. I would be so paranoid that someone would snitch.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's...
Em Schulz: Like someone would say something to the wrong person.
Christine Schiefer: It's so impressive. And like, to have such a broad operation, you must have people in such positions that they are benefiting by not telling, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, they must be benefiting enough to not say anything. Umm, especially all these truck drivers, they're just hiring to cross state lines...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I mean, it's, it's really impressive. Like, you know, for lack of a better word, it's impressive that they were able to keep this racket going for so long. Mmm. So she lived like royalty in, in public, but at home she was really struggling. Floyd was drinking more and more. He was becoming more and more violent. Uh, he had actually been a sniper in the Vietnam War, and one day he actually chased Lori out of the house with a gun while she was holding their little son, Josh.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And he began to shoot at them...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And she was trying to get in the car, and Floyd shot at them with a rifle hitting the car twice. Lori lied and yelled, you hit Josh just so he would stop shooting.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And she ran and hid with a friend for a few days, bringing Josh with her, but in the end, she went back to Floyd, umm, who claimed he didn't remember the incident because he was so drunk. Umm, so, you know, just now we're in this classic abuse cycle.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So that's when, uh, a little guy named Ronald Reagan became president, and Ronnie boy put some restrictions on purchasing P2P, which is the chemical necessary to make meth and a new law required people purchasing it to undergo screening and fill out paperwork, proving they had a legitimate cause for buying this chemical.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So now, uh, Lori is unable to continue making her own product. So they go back to trafficking drugs out of California into the Midwest. So they go back to having that kind of middleman. And in the meantime, the DEA, she did not know this, but the DEA for those who are unfamiliar, the Drug Enforcement Administration was closing in on Lori.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She was running larger orders of meth across the country than they had ever seen. So they were well aware that this was going on, but they were actually just waiting to strike when they had enough, uh, evidence, basically.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: To put her behind bars. Now, this might answer your question too, as to like why nobody snitched. Her cousin was actually the chief of police.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And she had always been friendly with local officers who drank and smoked weed with her when she was underage. So she kind of assumed like, well, they're just kind of gonna turn, an eye on this.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know? But in reality, she did not know this. But local police were actually working with federal officers to take Lori down.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So their goal was to charge her with continuing criminal enterprise. And to charge someone with this, you have to prove that she and Floyd were supervising five or more individuals who were committing at least three criminal acts and making substantial income. So they just had to prove that they had like this kind of, uh, operation running. And like we said earlier, the DEA could not get anyone working for Lori or Floyd to flip.
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: Because they were either like so loyal to Lori or so afraid of Floyd.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So they just had to wait until they could get enough proof. In January of 1991, federal agents finally raided Lori's and Floyd's home. They took three pounds of meth and $25,000 in cash, guns, photos, and papers. And then they left without making any arrests. Basically, Lori and Floyd just laid low for a month, but then nothing happened. So they just got back to business. They were like, well...
Em Schulz: Well, that was crazy.
Christine Schiefer: That was a weird day.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That was silly.
Christine Schiefer: That was a silly day. But eventually the DEA approached Lori and offered her a plea deal. They told her they knew everything about her operation and they were closing in on her, but if she would work with them to get them information on the cartels that were sending drugs across the border to Mexico, it would guarantee her a light 10-year sentence. And Lori said, Nope.
Em Schulz: Uh! Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She would not turn on anybody. Uh, not even the people in California who were shipping the drugs. So she laid low again and they heard nothing from the feds and started to feel safe. Uh, so Lori and Floyd decided to go on a month? Well, I don't know if they decided to go, but they went on a month-long party bender. Uh...
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah. Maybe they made a decision to do a one-day party bender and it just...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Extended. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It kind of kept going. And so that, uh, lasted until November 7th of 1991. And federal agents ended up raiding their home while everyone was asleep, arresting Lori and Floyd at gunpoint. 10-year-old Josh, this part makes me cry. 10-year-old Josh was allowed to sit with Lori for an hour until his grandmother, Lori's birth mother picked him up and Lori tried her best to stay calm for 10-year-old Josh, who sat behind his mom and gently brushed her hair until his grandma got there.
Em Schulz: Aw! Oh my God, that's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: He just brushed her hair and took care of her until his grandma got there. Lori and Floyd believed they, they would get out on bonds and just go back to their normal lives. I find this...
Em Schulz: Why? They were maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Really delusional were maybe.
Em Schulz: They were maybe not totally in the sober mind.
Christine Schiefer: Sober, maybe not.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But also, like twice now, the feds have gotten involved and then just like, let 'em be.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So it's sort of like, I don't know why they thought they'd get out on just bond, but whatever. They, that's what they really thought. They just didn't understand the gravity of the situation.
Em Schulz: The severity, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So 300 officers raided multiple locations in the area, and in the end, 50-60 people in connection to Lori's operation ended up in jail.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And many of these...
Em Schulz: Jail was busy that night.
Christine Schiefer: Jail was Busy, and many of these people were Lori's really close friends. So this is like a huge group of people. In the meantime, Lori's brother Tom, now this is a fun little plot Twist, was living in Hollywood as a successful actor, writer and comedian.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know, do you know the name Tom Arnold by chance?
Em Schulz: Yeah!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So that's her brother Tom Arnold.
Em Schulz: Shut up. Wow. Imagine the really cringey sad bits he could probably do about his sister.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I know. I wonder if he ever touched on it. He went to rehab to quit drinking and doing drugs, and he'd actually been avoiding Lori this whole time because he was trying to stay sober.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And obviously she was probably not the best influence. And once he was sober, he married his fiance, Roseanne Barr.
Em Schulz: Shut the fuck up. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's Tom Arnold's ex-wife now. So she and Tom actually arrived at Lori's hearing in a limousine with $400,000 in bail money.
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: And the prosecutor appealed to deny bail, and Lori and Floyd had to stay in county jail awaiting their trial, which took 2 years.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So the DEA told Lori that if she went to trial, she would face life in federal prison with no chance of parole. So Lori pled guilty. She was sentenced to 15 years in prison, and she only served 9 in the end for a year. Lori's birth mom was raising Josh, but unfortunately she died at only 52 years old. And so Josh, who's already gone through so much, was taken in by Lori's dad and stepmom, Ruth, who raised Josh in a loving, stable home, which is...
Em Schulz: That's good.
Christine Schiefer: Just thank God, the silver lining here. Josh grew up friendly, active, and sober, which is great.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Right. Yeah. I can't imagine a, a bigger reason to not even go near that stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, agreed. Agreed. And you can see it going both ways, you know? Like if you're just exposed to it all the time, you can see it just becoming a...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A normal part of your life, but I'm really impressed that he was able to stay sober through all that. So when Lori was released from prison, she worked two jobs. One at the meat packing plant, which now was no longer owned by Hormel and a night shift at Wendy's. But as you can imagine, this was nothing like the money and power, glitz and glam she used to have...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say.
Christine Schiefer: Just buying planes and horses and doing whatever she wanted. So she started dealing meth again.
Em Schulz: Again? Girl, come on. Oh, I really thought we were doing something different this time. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? The DEA found out, contacted her brother Tom in Hollywood, said, Tom Arnold, can you please get Lori to stop?
Em Schulz: Tom?
Christine Schiefer: Tom.
Em Schulz: Come on. I know you're busy. Get on the phone.
Christine Schiefer: I know you're busy with Roseanne. Uh, so basically they said, "Tom, if you can get her to stop dealing, then we won't bust her. That's our deal."
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh man, what a, what a awful place to be put in.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So Tom says, "Lori, you gotta, you gotta stop or else you're going to prison." And Lori said, "Leave me alone."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So she was arrested and sentenced to another 12 years in prison. And this time she served 6 years. And the way she described it was the first time she went to prison, she felt there was a purpose and sort of a second chance in her sentence. But this time she only felt ashamed, especially for letting down Josh, who was now in college and had been so thrilled when his mom got out of jail the first time.
Em Schulz: Ugh, please.
Christine Schiefer: And now she's back in. So she feels like shit. Floyd died of a heart attack, in prison only 6 months before he was due to be released. Now after her second release, Lori went to live with her younger brother Scott for a few years until she met a man named Bill. They fell in love, got engaged, and moved to Bill's home in Sandusky, Ohio. Bill knows about Lori's notorious past, of course, in an interview he scoffed at the headlines that called Lori, quote, "Scarface in a skirt." And he said...
Em Schulz: My God.
Christine Schiefer: "Well, I've never seen her in a skirt." [laughter] Just like the ultimate dad joke.
Em Schulz: Truly, truly.
Christine Schiefer: So despite her past, he admired Lori's ambition and attitude. They fell in love. They got married. A very sweet story. In fact, even the DEA agent responsible for taking down Lori's operation said she was a woman who could handle herself in any situation. And she should have gone into a legal business where she would've been extremely successful.
Em Schulz: Anything she did was gonna be extremely successful.
Christine Schiefer: A success. Totally agreed.
Em Schulz: I think no matter where she ended up, it was not going to be a, a bad run in terms of financial success.
Christine Schiefer: Not gonna boring journey. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or, or yeah, exactly. So in the wake of all that she did, Lori faces, unfortunately, or fortunately, I guess, depending on how you look at it, tremendous regrets. Umm. She, you know, told herself she was a local folk hero in the '80s, but now she realizes how many lives and families she destroyed, like throughout the Midwest.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Many of her own friend's, children, this is sad...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Started using meth, that she supplied as young as 12 years old. Uh, and Lori's business robbed them of the same childhood...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She herself lost because of neglect. And so when the arrest happened, an entire generation of children in her community lost their parents to prison.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Like, if you think like 50-60 people, just that, that one sweep of arrests, all those parent's children were now floundering. And so as a result of that, many of those children ended up in equally unstable neglectful situations. And then the cycle continued with the drugs. Lori actually learned through a documentary about herself that some of her friend's, children and younger siblings have died of overdoses.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So she had to learn that from a documentary about her life. Umm, after becoming, and these deaths occurred after these children became addicted at young ages to meth that Lori and Floyd supplied their families. So just really, uh, you know, big picture, she was kind of talking herself out of the bad parts.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then looking back, you know, hindsight is 2020. So children who grew up in the drug ring and are now adults, remember being exposed to constant dangerous situations while their parents used and sold Lori's meth. Josh, who still deeply loves his mother, feels that he had to grow up too fast and that he was robbed of many opportunities, especially of his own parents when they made decisions that sent them to prison for the rest of his childhood. And he basically had to be like, passed around.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: As of a 2021 documentary called The Queen of Meth. Uh, Lori was still living in Sandusky with Bill. She works 10-hour shifts at a factory as a forklift operator. And she said she is now sober for good and that she can't undo the past, but she can learn from it. So in the documentary, you can actually see Lori and her older brother Tom visit their mother's grave. Uh, Tom told Lori in the documentary he wished she would be mad at their mom and acknowledge that she ruined Lori's life. But Lori said she harbored no resentment toward her mother.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She believes she made all of her own decisions and caused so much harm that she has only herself to blame. And as for her son today, Josh only hopes that by living a good, loving, sober and honest life, he can change the way people think of his family name. And he says one day, maybe no one will associate him with the crimes of his parents.
Em Schulz: Right. I don't think anyone does.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think that's already a success.
Christine Schiefer: I think, uh, I mean, I'm sure some people do in his circles, but I don't.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: From over here. I don't, I he is good.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're good. You're good. Uh, so yeah, that's the story. Isn't that a crazy one?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I did not expect Roseanne to show up.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's such a plot. I love when there's just these weird mini plot twists that like don't really mean anything, but are just interesting.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's just like, oh, fun fact by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Wow. That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it sounds like she is got it together now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It sounds like she's really turned around, turned things around and umm, you know, to be the son of a the Queen of Meth and Sin of the motorcycle gang, I imagine is quite a childhood.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I don't know if he's interested in writing a memoir, but I'd probably read it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like his therapist every week tells him, "We're gonna unpack that next week."
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna, yeah, there's a lot there. Yeah. It's gonna be a while, so.
Em Schulz: Oh, my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm just really happy for them and, uh, you know, you live and you learn.
Em Schulz: And that's why we drink this week. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty good. I feel like we could've just ended, but we didn't, so.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, thank you everyone for listening.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And, uh, Christine, you're about to go on your trip. I'm not gonna see you again until...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Until you come back.
Christine Schiefer: I talked to my brother yesterday, he's like, see you in Munich. And I was like, oh my God.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's so trippy.
Em Schulz: And your little baby's gonna have a passport. Ah!
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she does. It's so funny 'cause in the photo we had to like get our hands out of it. So it's like her kind of just floating head.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, well, I'm excited for you. I'll, I'll see you... I mean, everyone else is gonna hear you just next week, but I'll see you in quite some time from now.
Christine Schiefer: In quite some time. And folks, uh, come to Patreon. We are doing little true crime and ghost themed episodes there now, bonus episodes where we talk about, umm, true crime cases, uh, ghost...
Em Schulz: Spooky stuff news.
Christine Schiefer: Spooky stuff. We're trying to make it more themed to the podcast. So come there for extra bonus content.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
Christine Schiefer: We did it.
