[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: See, we did it without Eva for once.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did it. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yay! [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And it's uh, a Monday morning and I woke up without my, without personal complaints. 'Cause usually I wake up and I go, "Ugh, I don't wanna wake up."
Christine Schiefer: I wonder why. It's 'cause I was the one complaining the whole time. I gave you no room to complain.
Em Schulz: When?
Christine Schiefer: I woke up like five minutes before recording and was like, waah...
Em Schulz: I woke up before you. That's gotta be a first.
Christine Schiefer: That is definitely a first. Um, my Apple Watch, uh, is from like 1995, I still have it, and all it basically does anymore is track my sleep. Um, it told me...
Em Schulz: Your Apple watch from '95? That's not even a good joke.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fine. My Baby G watch from 1995. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Your, your calculator watch, that's also a phone book. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And it's a slap watch too, so you could slap it on. [laughter] Um, it said I slept over 10 hours last night because I'm so behind on sleep. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh, I feel for you.
Christine Schiefer: So. It was a lovely time, but I didn't wanna go, get up. I wanted to hit, you know, 11, 12 hours. But, um, it was my idea to record at 10:00 AM, so it is my fault. And yes, we are talking about 10:00 AM, folks. Some of you probably wanna punch us in the face. We're complaining about getting up before 10:00 AM. [laughter]
Em Schulz: We recognize our privilege, but...
Christine Schiefer: We do, we do.
Em Schulz: We get to be our own bosses and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Make our own hours. But you know what, I will say the perk of getting to sleep in every day...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I, I still feel like I do the equivalent amount of work because I end up staying up late. Like it's all proportional.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. We just shift everything. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So like, everyone else is done working usually by like five or six, and I feel like I'm still working at...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Eight, eight, nine, 10, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. And now that I have like east, Eastern time and you're now on Eastern time, but you're usually on Pacific time, uh, I feel like my day... It's nice 'cause my day doesn't... I mean, with Leona, I have the morning with her, but then my like workday doesn't really start till noon.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But then it doesn't end till like eight or 9:00 PM. So it's like, well, I don't know. It's all, uh, it's all...
Em Schulz: Relative.
Christine Schiefer: Relative. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: How are you?
Em Schulz: Um, I'm good. I'm not as stressed as you are currently. I know you've...
Christine Schiefer: I'm fine. [laughter] I'm sorry. Let me try that again. Uh, take two. I'm fine. Oh, that was worse. I'm fine. No. Okay. You, you go ahead.
Em Schulz: I'm fine! Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not, I'm not fine.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, no, I... The... You're about to go on your big international trip and that overwhelms me just as a concept. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Conceptually speaking.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, I don't envy you. I do because I know you'll still have fun, but the logistics of it all just, I really am...
Christine Schiefer: It's very daunting, yeah.
Em Schulz: Sending you good vibes. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: But no, I'm, I'm, I'm good. I hung out with my hometown friends yesterday.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: How's the Funcle life? You're now Funcle, the multi-babies.
Em Schulz: I'm, uh... It's, it's uh... It's currently a good life because I have done nothing, you know.
Christine Schiefer: That's the dream. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, I have held the baby's hand on the day he was born, but then...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Um, I haven't seen him since he was born. So I'm actually going over later today to hold him for the first time. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Take photos.
Em Schulz: Oh, it's a little baby. Um, so...
Christine Schiefer: So cute.
Em Schulz: And he likes to sleep. I like to sleep. So, so far we've got a lot in common.
Christine Schiefer: You guys have so much in common. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, so...
Christine Schiefer: It's like when Leona started eating tomatoes and you were like, "I finally got... We got it. We got each other."
Em Schulz: We see each other.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Um, but no, uh, I, I'm gonna hold them later today and that's kind of my whole agenda. So...
Christine Schiefer: Good for you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, it's a good life. [laughter] Um... I, I got really nothing to report on. I'm trying to think of uh, a good reason why I drink, but I guess the reason I drink is because like, for like five seconds, I, I feel like I've got some relaxing time, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: Tell me all about your feelings and your thoughts and your...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Your everything about this big trip coming up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my. Um, well, uh, I'm drinking... Oh, by the way, I meant to tell you real quick, I'm drinking coffee out of the mug you gave me. Um...
Em Schulz: What is it? Hold on, let me see. Uh, my, my documents are in the way.
Christine Schiefer: It sucks.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: I'm kidding.
Em Schulz: That's an old one now.
Christine Schiefer: Married bitches. Um, I think I got...
Em Schulz: What are you drinking in it?
Christine Schiefer: Coffee with lots of yummy creamer. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm drinking Deer Park because I don't have that on the West Coast and I missed her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know you have that favorite brand. Um...
Em Schulz: DP.
Christine Schiefer: DP, right. Um, no, I'm good. You know what, I'm good. I'm chilling.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sort of. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Any updates on like your travels that you...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, as you know, I bought everything that, uh, the internet sells for traveling and for toddlers. Um, I have some fun Gabby's Dollhouse, uh, coloring books...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Ready to whip out during a crisis. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just... You know, today's packing day.
Em Schulz: Do you have any, um, big things you're looking forward to on your trip?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well, the last time I went to Sweden, um, I found out my boyfriend cheated on me and I tried to jump off the boat into the fjord. Uh...
Em Schulz: Okay. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And so...
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm excited to not do that this time.
Em Schulz: Unless Blaise has a really, some bad news to tell you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Bad news. That's true. And that's true. I gotta be really careful. Um, 'cause yeah, Sweden has done me dirty in the past, but it's a great country, I'm very excited. Um, and I'm excited to... This is gonna sound terrible, but we're not really seeing like a lot of relatives. Like I have so many relatives over there.
Em Schulz: There's nothing wrong with that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I feel like I... I don't mean in a mean way about them. It's just like, it adds so much stress and, I don't know uh, and socializing and all that. So I'm excited. And Blaise's parents are coming and they've never been, so we get to kind of show them around and...
Em Schulz: And you're gonna get a car out of it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. By the way, I'm getting a car. That's why... That's part of the reason we're going. Um... And oh, we decided that I think I'm gonna try to take my car and drive it through Europe.
Em Schulz: Oh, that'd be fun.
Christine Schiefer: So like, as like a little road trip, so...
Em Schulz: What, um, what... Do you know where you're gonna be stopping?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I think Hamburg. Hamburg.
Em Schulz: Okay, thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, or, or Berlin, I'm not really sure yet. Maybe Berlin. Um...
Em Schulz: Do you have a favorite place over there that like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you know, I love... This is not even in Germany, but I love Vienna, which is we're spending a couple of days in Vienna. Um...
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: It's so beautiful there. I can't wait to take you there one day, Em.
Em Schulz: Wow. Uh, you gotta get me some good food recommendations and nap spots, and then we'll be okay.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I was gonna say, I learned that in Sweden they have this thing called Fika, which in Germany, we... They also have... I imagine it's similar to a Spanish siesta, I'm not really sure.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: But it's like, basically coffee and cake hour and...
Em Schulz: Ahh.
Christine Schiefer: Like in Germany, like I swear to God, the world stops [laughter] at like 2 o'clock, everyone's like, "Okay, bring out the coffee, bring out the cake, bring out the tea," and everyone just like, takes an hour or two. I mean, it's...
Em Schulz: Every other country does everything better than us.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like what are we thinking? We took the worst parts and brought them here.
Em Schulz: And why... 'Cause like, you know, at my, at my last job, you know, everyone gets the munchies around 3 o'clock...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So obviously I get it with the cake thing.
Christine Schiefer: It's the energy dip, you know, you want like a tea or a coffee and some, some sugar.
Em Schulz: So like, and naturally in our bodies, we all get that...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Feeling anyway, so why would, don't we just give into it?
Christine Schiefer: Come on.
Em Schulz: I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: And so, yeah, I'm excited because, uh, my parents very vehemently support coffee and cake hour. And the fact that I found out Sweden does the same thing, I was like, I already booked all our like little, not booked, but I like picked all the best little spots to make sure we're getting a good...
Em Schulz: That's what's up.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently in Sweden, it's, it's cinnamon buns.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So in Germany it's like cake, you know, and in Sweden... Which makes sense now at IKEA why they sell those cinnamon buns.
Em Schulz: [gasp] It's for when you're shopping and then when 2 o'clock hits, you stop your shopping.
Christine Schiefer: You sit down in one of the, uh, beautiful living rooms they've set up for you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Do you know what I found out about my... The Burbank IKEA? Which by the way, if you're not from California or from Southern California, um, Burbank is apparently known for its IKEA.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, I have told people I live in Burbank and they go, "Oh, they have IKEA." They're like the...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: We're like the only area in Los Angeles that has an IKEA and people usually come all the way to Burbank when they, when they're...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Moving somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I, I've spent a lot of time at that IKEA.
Em Schulz: And, uh, I just, I just talked to somebody here in like Virginia, and I was like, "Oh, I live in Burbank," and they were like, "Oh, IKEA." And I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Are you shitting me? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, "There are other IKEAs."
Christine Schiefer: What? What?
Em Schulz: "You live here where there is an IKEA."
Christine Schiefer: There's like at least a dozen like within, I don't know, 200 miles of you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, uh, so apparently that IKEA is the largest IKEA in the continent.
Christine Schiefer: Heh?
Em Schulz: Fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: And think of the real estate. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, no wonder everyone knows about this fucking IKEA.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I remember that it used to suck because you used to have to park across the street and then they have like a...
Em Schulz: Yeah, and then they moved it.
Christine Schiefer: Loading zone and you would have to drive. And so when I was by myself, I'm like, "Well, I don't have any friends to stand here and like hold my furniture, so I'd have to like leave it...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Run, get the car, but they changed it all, so it's much better now.
Em Schulz: IKEA is a, is a team uh, event. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It needs to be. I don't know what I was thinking going alone, but, um, yeah. Well...
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what we were talking about. Oh, Sweden and their cinnamon rolls. Yes. So I'm excited for that. Um, just be prepared for a lot of photos of my food and my cake, so...
Em Schulz: That sounds great to me. I still... I, I very much miss my, um... During COVID, I was setting... Like every like 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock, I was having tea time with myself.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, tea time, exactly, like you get it.
Em Schulz: It was lovely. It was lovely.
Christine Schiefer: I know. We... You should pick that back up.
Em Schulz: Um, everyone, it is, uh, whenever you listen to this, you have permission from us in case you need the permission and the external validation.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You have permission. We give you the, the freedom to go give yourself an hour and do whatever you want today.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. And if your boss asks, say you have, not a doctor's note, but a podcast note. So...
Em Schulz: We uh, we, we got it covered. Don't even worry about it.
Christine Schiefer: We'll sign it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Also, reminder to drink, thirsty little rats.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I'm drinking coffee, does that count?
Em Schulz: Well, stay hydrated however you need to, but put something in your mouth.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that is doctor's orders.
Em Schulz: I want, I want to edit none of those words.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, you... As you shouldn't.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, Christine...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: I got a classic haunt for you today.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Um, this is in Milwaukee.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I love Milwaukee. I've only ever been there with you.
Em Schulz: This is called... I know. I've only ever been there with you.
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: There's a pattern, it seems.
Christine Schiefer: That's weird. I wonder why. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, this is a cigar bar which...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Love it.
Em Schulz: You know we love those.
Christine Schiefer: You know I've only been there with you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, hang on. Allison just texted me.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. What did she say?
Em Schulz: I don't understand the context, but it said... I... Oh, oh. She responded with, "I feel like one day I'm gonna look back at all this and see that this was the first sign of mental illness for you."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The first sign? I'm sorry. No offense Em, but the first sign? Are you shitting me? Where's she been?
Em Schulz: Which like... Is she not listening? 'Cause I tell her every day that I'm so mentally unwell. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hello? I was gonna say, does she not realize?
Em Schulz: Um, yeah. Well she's, she's... The context, she's right. [laughter] She's right about what I said to her.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't doubt that for a minute, but what did it... What were you talking about? You don't have to tell me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so Allison goes to bed really early.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Speaking of our schedules. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, it's gonna truly sound like I'm, like I'm mentally unstable. Um... I... Because she goes to bed early, I, I'm very... When I... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You don't have to tell me if you don't want to.
Em Schulz: No, it's just stupid. I... One of my favorite things to do is like just like shout affirmations at her. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good.
Em Schulz: And... Oh yeah, she's so unfortunate to have someone encouraging her every five seconds. Allison, if you're listening.
Christine Schiefer: To be fair, that wasn't the mentally ill part. So apparently she's onboard.
Em Schulz: Well, so she goes to bed so early and it's become a habit where I just like shout affirmations just to note... Just because I know that she's got something... She... That she'll hear something. So now when she goes to bed, I, uh, I just keep doing it. I just keep saying like...
Christine Schiefer: Like while you're across the country, you mean, or what?
Em Schulz: No, no, no. Like when she goes to sleep at 7 o'clock, at 8 o'clock, I just like get a, like weird stim...
Christine Schiefer: Compulsion?
Em Schulz: Where I just still wanna say nice things about her even though she's not in the room.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: So I'll just be working and all of a sudden I'll be like, "You're so pretty," and then I realize she's not in the room. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So now we've made a thing where I, where I just talk to fake Allison when she goes to bed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah. Well, um okay. I'm seeing now where this became a little concerning. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So in the morning I'll be like, "Oh, I talked to fake Allison. I told her she's beautiful. So everything should be covered for the rest of the day." So...
Christine Schiefer: I love the... Like she has to be the most supportive partner to say, this is the first sign of mental illness.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Like I've known you for a long time.
Em Schulz: Uh... Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: She's, she's clearly has blinders on, so you're lucky, Em. [giggles]
Em Schulz: She's, she's saying it because since we're across the country, I was telling her like, "Oh, I've been talking to fake Allison a lot more recently since, you know, our time schedules are different."
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: I was like... So anyway, she was like... Her response was, "I feel like one day I'm gonna look back and see that this was the first sign of mental illness for you."
Christine Schiefer: I love that you're about to start your story and that comes in. She has impeccable timing, that one.
Em Schulz: She does. She does. I'll talk to fake Allison about it later though. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, great. [laughter] Me too, while we're at it, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, might as well. Okay, so anyway, this is a cigar bar. It's called Shaker's Cigar Bar.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And I guess we just get into it. So it was built in 1894. It's in Milwaukee. And it's built on a previous cemetery, of course.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, why not?
Em Schulz: Fun fact, do you know the difference between a graveyard, a cemetery and a burial ground?
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Em, oh, I just got goose cam from just the question. Uh...
Em Schulz: Ah! I asked fake Allison, she'd never fucking answer, of course.
Christine Schiefer: She was like...
Em Schulz: Stupid, stupid Allison.
Christine Schiefer: Tallying your mental illness scores, adding one more check. [laughter] Uh, let's see, uh, a grave yard, a... No, I don't.
Em Schulz: I found this out yesterday 'cause I went to a cemetery and I went on a tour of a cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Ah. Cool.
Em Schulz: I don't... I regret it because it was so fucking caught out and I was like, I... And I was the only person on the tour. I...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what? [laughter] What the fuck?
Em Schulz: I was the only person on the tour. I, I don't know why. I thought 3:00 PM is when everyone goes on a cemetery tour. Um, so I went and it was just so fucking hot, I couldn't even hear half the things he was saying. And I had to keep looking interesting 'cause there's nobody else...
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, you can't even having someone. That sucks.
Em Schulz: It was just the two of us. It might as well been a fucking Bumble date, like to go to a cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, he said a, a graveyard is attached to a church.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I've heard that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And a cemetery is not. And then a burial ground doesn't even have like monuments or stones or anything, it's just a plot of land that people bury dead bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. So it's not even like meant to be sacred or have like uh...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, headstones. Okay. Wow, Em, that's cool. That is a fun fact.
Em Schulz: So Shaker's Cigar Bar is built on a cemetery, so it's not attached to a church.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Uh, good, 'cause I don't know if a church wants to share land with a cigar bar.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, listen, priests have a few vices, usually it's wine, but um, uh I get that...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: That's the blood of Christ, actually. So...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: That's true. It is. That's true. You're right.
Em Schulz: Until the 19th-20th century, um, uh the, the, the cemetery was untouched. Um, nothing else was going on there until about the 19th or 20th century. Then Milwaukee wanted to expand, then they had nowhere to do it except on top of their older cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Oops. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So many people couldn't actually afford to move their loved ones...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: When they knew the construction was coming. And so those bodies were left in the ground and...
Christine Schiefer: And they get rid of the headstone. I'm sure that's just... That's classy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You just have to write down somewhere what acre they're on, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, you gotta stand in the cigar bar and they're like, "Uh, excuse me, I'm sitting here," and you're like, "Do you mind?"
Em Schulz: Right, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "I'm bringing flowers." [laughter] Just set them at them on a booth in the corner.
Em Schulz: Uh so when they decided to build over the cemetery, the location that is currently Shaker's Cigar Bar was originally a cooperage house. Do you know what a cooperage house is?
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like a coop, chicken coop, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: That's what I also thought because...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, you made a face and I was like, "Am I about to be so embarrassed? Okay, good. I'm glad it's not just me."
Em Schulz: No. Well, I've always heard the name Cooper and I thought, "Oh, that's someone who does like, who, who makes coops like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, barrels.
Em Schulz: Barrels.
Christine Schiefer: How do I know that? I don't know, but it, it just popped in my head when you said the last name Cooper, I was like, I think that means barrel maker.
Em Schulz: It is. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay!
Em Schulz: So a cooperage house was a house that made barrels and specifically this building need barrels to transport Schlitz Beer.
Christine Schiefer: Hah. Yes!
Em Schulz: Um, and so that was what the building originally was. And then in 1922, it was bought by the Capone brothers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That fits. That fits.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. So Al and Frank Capone, uh they opened it, of course, into a speakeasy, 'cause I've never heard them open anything into like a library. Um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It had to be something bad. Um, and they would...
Christine Schiefer: Ain't nothing bad about a speakeasy, Em. You watch your mouth.
Em Schulz: Okay. Maybe in 1922 it wasn't all good, but, um...
Christine Schiefer: Well, probably, probably in the... When we get into the details, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. In today's world, the speakeasy is divine, but...
Christine Schiefer: I was just at one in Knoxville. I had a great time.
Em Schulz: Where you?
Christine Schiefer: But I'm sure it was a different vibe. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What was the theme? Uh, you know, a speakeasy can't not have a theme these days.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so I don't know if you'll love this or not, but it was like a library.
Em Schulz: Oh, I love that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good. 'Cause I know you're not like a huge like, book person, but all the characters were named... Like the drink I got was called the Violet Baudelaire from, um, from um...
Em Schulz: Willy Wonka?
Christine Schiefer: No. Uh... Oh my God, Christine. Uh...
Em Schulz: Violet Beauregarde? Wasn't that...
Christine Schiefer: Beauregarde.
Em Schulz: That was Willy Wonka, wasn't it?
Christine Schiefer: No, not Beauregarde. Baudelaire [chuckle] from uh, uh, uh, the things that are all bad, all the things are bad. Um... [laughter] Christine.
Em Schulz: Willy Wonka. Things were pretty bad.
Christine Schiefer: Lemony Snicket! Lemony Snicket! A Series of Unfortunate Events.
Em Schulz: Did I just have this conversation with you?
Christine Schiefer: Did I? 'Cause I feel like I should have uh, had it better this time.
Em Schulz: Who was I... Who was I talking to? I was just talking to someone about all you could do with a library-themed bar. I was just talking about this with someone.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well, the, they did a good job. But Violet... Did you ever read that? Um...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: A Series of Unfortunate Events. Um so they had like characters named after different um, books and, or I'm sorry, drinks named after different characters. It was uh, it was really cool.
Em Schulz: I was just talking about this. I was just talking about this with someone. Oh my God. Someone...
Christine Schiefer: Was it fake Allison? [laughter]
Em Schulz: It might have been fake Allison. 'Cause I, I was just talking about like how good, um... Oh, maybe it was Allison! It was real Allison, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. [laughter] Important distinction.
Em Schulz: Um, because I was... I asked her like, "If you could do anything in the world, what would you do? Like if like money was nothing, what would you... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like what... And she said she wanted to open her own bookstore with a coffee shop in it, but it was also like, like a bookstore that turned into a bar at night or something.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: It's like, it ends up being like a library-themed bar. And we were always talking about like, "Oh, even like, you know at, how at like cafes and a book shop, they've got like, fun little drinks for kids," and I was like, "Think of like what you could do with little, like drinks, fun drinks for kids."
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And I was like, "Oh, the Curious George would be like a peanut butter banana smoothie and like... "
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my God, that's really cute, Em.
Em Schulz: I just... Uh, we just... Anyway, very weirdly timed in the universe 'cause we just talked about this.
Christine Schiefer: It is weirdly timed. And um, I thought of you 'cause I know you love a speakeasy.
Em Schulz: Oh, and I love a theme.
Christine Schiefer: I know you do. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I love a theme. Um, wow. Okay. Uh, next time I visit you, we'll go.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was... I mean, it's in Knoxville, so it's four hours south.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Next time I'm in Knoxville, I'll text you for the address.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: Um, okay. So Shaker's was originally a cooperage house and made barrels for Schlitz beer. In 1922, the Capone brothers turned it into a speakeasy and they would smuggle beer from Canada.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, and their front, the name of their like fake restaurant or building, so that way no one would know It was a speakeasy, was ABC Soda Company.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "What... Which... ABC, got it. Nailed it. First try."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I guess there's an ABC like liquor company, right?
Christine Schiefer: There is an ABC Liquor. Oh, interesting, Em.
Em Schulz: I wonder if that was on purpose, if that was a play on words like "Oh, you know the ABC that we're talking about, but this is ABC Soda."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, nothing... Not related.
Em Schulz: Uh the speakeasy was in the warehouse district, so I guess a lot of its clientele were people who were working in the middle of the day. So they would come in on their like lunch shifts or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: In the middle of their shifts. Um, but it was also, at nighttime, a gambling hall and brothel.
Christine Schiefer: Hell yeah.
Em Schulz: And because it was mob-run, it is difficult to know how many people died there, but it's suspected that a lot of, a lot of people died there.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Thus, many of the deaths have become local legend because all people can do is guess how people died.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and the staff has actually tried really hard to put the pieces together and has worked with historical societies to learn as much as possible, um, which I like that they're trying to find the bodies and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Find the bodies. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Or at least honor the names...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Honor the names. Um, the most notorious death that they've been able to figure out here is of Molly Brennan, who was an Irish 16-year-old...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mmm.
Em Schulz: Who was also the most popular of the sex workers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: While 16, she worked the penthouse as the most popular sex worker and was murdered and dismembered for unknown reasons.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Dear Lord. That's dark.
Em Schulz: Um, some say she might've like... Like a client met up with her and when they saw each other face-to-face, she realized it was someone that she knew. Um... And so, like afraid that he would get found out that he was like with her...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: But the story... That's kind of one of the ideas of what must have happened.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Another version is that maybe she was killed by like a jealous client or like a jilted suitor, or somebody...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, listen, people have killed women for much less.
Em Schulz: Yeah, maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Reason.
Em Schulz: She didn't laugh at his joke.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like...
Em Schulz: That could also have done it.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, especially when it comes to sex workers, I feel like I've watched enough SVU to know this has not changed much as far as...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Needing a reason.
Em Schulz: For all you know, that's what he was... Like he was into pain and like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, who knows.
Em Schulz: Did, did something, went too far or something. So you just... It could be anything. Um, another death was in the 1840s when the land was still a cemetery and it had an orchard on it. And there was an eight-year-old...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Named Elizabeth...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And she fell out of one of the trees of the orchard and died.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Um, we also know that there were people murdered in the speakeasy and sex workers died upstairs a lot. Um, and that could be either homicide, suicide, we don't really know all the reasons, but multiple different types of deaths upstairs. And in 1932, Al Capone goes to prison, and a year later, prohibition ended. Uh, that being said, the brothels were in operation for like another 13 years.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So from 1946 to the 1980s, the history of the property is really hard to nail down. Um, but we do know that by the 1980s, a guy named Bob reopens it as a cigar bar.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Bob's like, "Oh, what's this?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] "I just stumbled upon this, doesn't feel eerie at all."
Christine Schiefer: "Nothing wrong with this place."
Em Schulz: So, when he reopened it, he had...
Christine Schiefer: To ABC Cigars.
Em Schulz: That would be hysterical. What...
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't that be good? [laughter]
Em Schulz: What a good nod. Oh, it'd be ABCigar.
Christine Schiefer: ABCigars. That's really good. I... Listen, he, he had a missed opportunity there.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I think Bob just... I think he was running with the first thing he saw and didn't even think about the creativity. [laughter] Um, so he reopens it in the '80s and he also brought the building back to its original 1920s aesthetic. So it looks like it did when the Capones owned it.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: It was cool. I'm down with that. Um, fun fact, apparently in the early... Well, it's not really a fun fact, but early in the '90s, Bob claims that this was a regular hotspot or watering hole for Jeffrey Dahmer.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh. I mean, it is a fun fact in our universe. Like it's our type of fun fact that's just fucked up. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's upsetting.
Em Schulz: Yes. Well, in case you wanted to know that, now you do.
Christine Schiefer: I, I didn't, but thank you for telling me anyway.
Em Schulz: You're welcome.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, during, during, uh, renovations, uh, of course, those state renovations, it seems, and contractors started having very spooky experiences. And by the second day of this building being open, Bob knew it was haunted.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. [laughter] That's pretty quick.
Em Schulz: That's rough. I'd be like, "Ooh, how much did I invest into this fucking place?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, staff had issues right away and soon, because people were having so many paranormal experiences, Bob just started giving informal tours of the building.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Which like, if you find a side hustle, lean into it, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Why not? You know, I would take him up on that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If he was like, "Oh, you wanna see like the place and maybe have a spooky experience? Let's go."
Christine Schiefer: Hell yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, he also started very quickly looking into the potential entities here. He knew, you know, about Molly and Elizabeth...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Who both died on the property. Um, Elizabeth, she's a hoot, the little eight-year-old girl.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She loves her some mischief.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Um, and it's fun for her and it's fun for me not having to experience it. But if I were someone who had to experience it, I'd hate it. Um, because she is most often seen and/or recognized in the women's bathroom, which is like on its own a sad thing 'cause it's like she just wants to hang out with the girlies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She's like, "This is where the girls go."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, so in the bathroom, the faucets turn on by themselves. Women hear giggling in the bathroom. Apparently, the... They'll hear knocking, of course, on their stall when...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. You're like, "I'm really indecent right now."
Em Schulz: Truly, pants dropped, maybe in the middle of a intense situation.
Christine Schiefer: But that is such a kid thing to do. "Mom! "
Em Schulz: Yeah. I just imagine...
Christine Schiefer: "What are you doing? What are you doing? Can I come in?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, if you don't lock the stall door, guess who kicks it open.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Shut up. It just swings open and there's like nobody on the... That's terrifying.
Em Schulz: Uh, and then some people... Even worse is if you're walking by the stalls to like see which ones are available, sometimes people will see the shoes of a little...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: They'll see a little girl standing.
Christine Schiefer: Eww, I just got goosecam. That's scary.
Em Schulz: Imagine if you see the shoes when you're on the other side,...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: On the potty and she's trying to bang on the door and giggle, and you see little vintage feet and shoes.
Christine Schiefer: What if she's like just silent and you...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Just see like Victorian shoes? [laughter] Oh my God, what do I do?
Em Schulz: For the rest of time, if I ever see shoes on the other side of a stall, I'm just gonna assume that it's a ghost for sure.
Christine Schiefer: It's gonna be like...
Em Schulz: With no context?
Christine Schiefer: Sketchers Shape-Ups, and you're gonna be like, "Oh my God, it's a Victorian ghost." [laughter]
Em Schulz: They're gonna be shoes that like light up, like the little kid light-up shoes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, that's a demon for sure.
Christine Schiefer: "Get away!" You're gonna start saying the Our Father and then the parents are gonna be like, "Okay, we're gonna find a different bathroom. This one's really weird."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Imagine if they're Heelys.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I am imagining.
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, apparently she just likes to chill in the bathroom. Also, she has a portrait of herself in Shaker's. They've like... I don't know if it's a painted portrait or what. There's a picture of her to honor her at Shaker's next to the bathroom where everyone sees her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And apparently the portrait moves on its own throughout the building and people just find the portrait...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: In different rooms.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That feels like a big heavy item to be moving around.
Em Schulz: It, it, again, it brings up this stupid...
Christine Schiefer: That thing in the quandary.
Em Schulz: This... Yeah, the quandary. Like is it falling into a portal and just showing up somewhere? Is it being moved and no one's... How would you not notice a portrait moving...
Christine Schiefer: Is it getting like floated through the hallway, or is it just like, poof, and it...
Em Schulz: No, no, no. If you're on a Heely, that's sliding.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're right, it would glide. You're right, you're right. Stupid Christine.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you just see it gliding away, you know a little kid in Heelys is doing it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, in 2001, during renovations, human remains...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Were found in the upstairs walls, which is where the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Where the brothel was.
Christine Schiefer: Shit.
Em Schulz: Forensics say that the charred bones were 70 years old and they're believed to have belonged to a teenage woman, or a younger woman.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Sad.
Em Schulz: They could belong to anyone, but it's suspected to be the remains of Molly Brennan who died.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, sure. That makes sense.
Em Schulz: And the basement here in, in the bar used to be a meetup spot or a hideout for the Capone brothers...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: With like all their mob wheelings and dealings.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And during the renovations, Bob had the crew, the construction crew use radar down there on the ground and they found two bodies buried under the concrete.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no.
Em Schulz: Is that not the most like quintessential mob thing you've ever heard...
Christine Schiefer: Literally.
Em Schulz: That they just bury you in concrete?
Christine Schiefer: I love that Bob was the exact right person. I like made fun of him at first, but he's like on it.
Em Schulz: He's like, "I know something fucking happened here. Let's... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's like, "We're gonna get to the bottom of this."
Em Schulz: Or also like, I wonder, I wonder what his involvement was. I like to think if I found remains in a wall, we're checking every fuckin' wall now.
Christine Schiefer: We're... Every wall.
Em Schulz: But I wonder if like the police got involved or something. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it could be like a historical issue, like... I don't know.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right. Um, so they found two bodies in the basement under concrete. And the police said that the burial was so old that digging it up felt unnecessary.
Christine Schiefer: Woww.
Em Schulz: And so Bob just never recovered the bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: So they're still down there.
Christine Schiefer: They're just down there. Oh, that's dark.
Em Schulz: But to mark the spot, he put two plastic Halloween skeletons where they are.
Christine Schiefer: Okayyy?
Em Schulz: So you know where the bodies are buried, which I feel like an X on the ground...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, there's a couple other ways you could mark without, you know...
Em Schulz: Honestly, you're a fucking cigar bar. You don't wanna just put an, a table down there with two cigars for them?
Christine Schiefer: That's a great idea, Em.
Em Schulz: Like a, like just leave a, like a cup of whiskey and just never touch it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just let people... Let them have... Yeah, yeah. The Halloween props are a little, eh, but...
Em Schulz: Except for Halloween. I'm telling you, if I end up being like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Wherever I end up, if someone would like to put a skeleton there to honor me, go for it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well...
Em Schulz: And make the skeleton do funny things, you know.
Christine Schiefer: We're definitely the exception. We'd be like, "Let's become a side show the second we die." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I would like my grave to be a side show one day.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely. And you know I'm gonna...
Em Schulz: I would love that.
Christine Schiefer: Fulfill that wish if you die before me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I hope so. Um, but, so yeah, they... He marked the spot at least so people know where they are. And it's right in the corner of the basement, so it's not like it's, you know, two big skeleton props that are like you have to trip over every day.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: They're in the corner. So, um, anyway, so this makes three confirmed deaths and three bodies remains in Shaker's.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, it's not even like, oh, people died. It's like their bodies are here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's so disturbing.
Em Schulz: Um, so now for the ghosts, Molly, she is known to haunt the third floor, especially the penthouse where she worked. Um, and it's now a hotel, by the way. The upstairs part is a hotel room. And so guests actually have to sign a waiver just in case they have a haunting that they're not going to sue the, the building.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask you if you would stay there. I feel like that's a little... That's almost too on the... Like, I would usually stay in any haunted place, but that feels a little...
Em Schulz: I think I would be... Well, it depends on... Assuming the ghosts are, were just sex workers and um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: People from before there was ever a building there, yeah, I would. But if the spirits are like mobsters...
Christine Schiefer: Mobsters, I think I don't wanna be part of that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't wanna like be harmed. But I feel like if I were like in a room where like sex work happened, I would just go in and be like super respectful and be like, "I'm not here to... You wanna just like hang out and watch TV or something? That's chill." But like...
Christine Schiefer: Watch TV. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "Like not... We're not going any further than that. So you are... "
Christine Schiefer: That's fair.
Em Schulz: "Welcome to feel safe here and I wanna feel safe here." So, um, but if it was like someone who wants to apparently throw me into a wall, like no, I don't wanna be...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: To bury you under the concrete.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Right, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, so people also... I guess because of all the dark stuff that happened there, people will hear crying on the third floor.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, plus the TVs and the lights turn on and off by themselves. On the TV, like the channels and the volume will change on their own. People have been grabbed there, especially when they're sleeping.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. See, that's why I'm saying I don't know about this.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But also I wonder if that's like in a dangerous way being grabbed, or if it's like in a sex worker way, they thought you're supposed to approach...
Christine Schiefer: But here's the thing, I don't care. If someone grabs me in my sleep, I'm like threatened...
Em Schulz: That's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: No matter what the intention is, I'm like, "Who grabbed me in my sleep?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's a fair point. I wonder... In my mind, I just feel like if I go into a room and I like state my boundaries first...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I feel like I'm probably safer. And I feel like if I knew again what ghost was there, if I was getting grabbed and I knew there was at least like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's fair.
Em Schulz: No threat, I would be more inclined to be okay with sleeping there.
Christine Schiefer: That's fair. That makes sense.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I'd be like, "No, no, no, no, we don't do that. We just, we just don't do that."
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no.
Em Schulz: Um, so people get grabbed, especially in their sleep, which I wonder, whenever a place was formerly a brothel, I wonder what, um, the stats are of like how often men are being touched compared to women.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Interesting.
Em Schulz: I've heard other places were like, "Oh, the men especially, like someone's gonna rub your back, someone's gonna try to touch your hair... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "And you're gonna smell perfume." So I would be interested about that. But...
Christine Schiefer: Me, too.
Em Schulz: People also hear speaking, but usually out of context, they'll just hear like a random phrase. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I like that. That's my kind of haunting where you're like, "Ooh, what does it mean?"
Em Schulz: "What's the drama, girl? Spill."
Christine Schiefer: What's the drama? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, but they'll just hear like either mumbling or voices as if they're picking up on old conversation. People will see shadow figures and guests will have their items moved, especially like odds and ends, like jewelry.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Shoes apparently, especially move on their own and then re-appear in odd places.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well, they are Heelys, so they, they will, they will roll. You have to be careful.
Em Schulz: If someone can go to that bar and leave one light-up shoe, one Heely, one wedge and one...
Christine Schiefer: One wedge? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't... I'm trying to think like... And then like a random boring one.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Just a flat.
Em Schulz: I would love to see which one gets moved first on its own, like as a test, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Hm. Yeah.
Em Schulz: What's your favorite shoe? And then just like...
Christine Schiefer: If it's not the Heely, I'm gonna be really upset.
Em Schulz: It would have to be a Heely! Especially if a little eight-year-old girl haunts that place?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like a tap shoe, 'cause you can make noise with it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. That's all we need, a ghost with tap shoes.
Em Schulz: And you know what the sick part is? That eight-year-old ghost would never let that shoe re-appear. You would just hear tapping for the rest of time.
Christine Schiefer: Right. You'd be done. "Sorry, it's, it's mine now."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, items can be, uh, knocked off dressers and tables if they're not just moving or disappearing on their own. Activity has been so high in the past that people leave in the middle of the night and things allegedly don't get too wild until 3:00 AM. So you're...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: Good until 2:59 AM, folks.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Um, apparently, less people have been fleeing in the night because the bar/hotel has been getting more experienced investigators recently.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So instead of people running, there's now more people leaning into this.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: And they've realized the most active spot is the basement where there is a very deep cistern, which I hadn't even mentioned yet...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, or a, well, essentially. Uh, it's in the basement. And the theory is that the Capones used to throw bodies down there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: Which is wild. Like, did you throw 'em down or did you bury them in concrete? Or did you do both?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say maybe they just ran out of room and... I don't know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Otherwise, I'm like, "How do you decide?" I'm like, "Which one's worse?"
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they both had their own method, you know, like each of them.
Em Schulz: Ooh. Yeah, I would think if you're running uh, a mob-owned speakeasy and you have a well, nothing good has ever come out of that well.
Christine Schiefer: What do we think is happening in that well, you know? Clean water? Hell no.
Em Schulz: What do we think, or what do we know?
Christine Schiefer: What do we know? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, so about this well, the well is now covered with a grate that has metal bars so that nobody else could accidentally be, be thrown down there. Um, but it used to be fully covered. So it wasn't a grate that you could see through. It was just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: A slab.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But apparently, when that was around the basement ghosts got so aggressive.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Why?
Em Schulz: Which is so weird 'cause I don't understand, but...
Christine Schiefer: Is it like, they're like trapped down there now?
Em Schulz: So that's what they think, that the spirits felt trapped, like they'd never be found again, or they couldn't see the world again.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh. And that is kind of ominous to put a big slab over... Yeah. Hm.
Em Schulz: So anyway, the staff changed the solid grate to one with bars and activity did die down.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Which is weird. Had they even like... I wouldn't have even have put those two things together that it was associated with the grate.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, so in the early 2000s, one of the servers was dating a guy who claimed to be very spiritually sensitive and he said that in the basement, he felt an entity named O'Connor.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, and ever since then, I guess this guy's been called O'Connor, whether or not that's his name. So fun fact, the basement is known to be where most tour guides that are women get assaulted.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Presumably by O'Connor, but also, this is, again, where we're talking about, maybe these are ghosts from the brothel time, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Or from the speakeasy time. So... But women sure do get assaulted down there.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They sure do.
Em Schulz: Sure do. Um, O'Connor is, I can't... I think just the name they slap onto this entity now.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he is known to pull women's hair. He is known to slap their butts, grab their butts...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Be very hostile towards women. Um, on one tour, there was a woman who was the tour guide, she called O'Connor a lazy Irish bastard.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Which, not to victim blame here, but what were you thinking?
Christine Schiefer: What do you think is gonna happen?
Em Schulz: And then immediately she gets forcefully pushed into a wall. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, I feel like she told someone to record before she said that just to get it on camera.
Em Schulz: I hope so, like for content.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, girl, you work here, you know better than that.
Christine Schiefer: Girl. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so this entity is very hostile towards women, especially blondes and redheads.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, he's also very active during investigations and is very quick to react and communicate with equipment. He has said... He's said to have been seen before, and when he has been seen, he is in Confederate regalia. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, excellent. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just to add to the charm.
Christine Schiefer: Winner.
Em Schulz: Um, they think he might be an Irish immigrant who fought in the Civil War and he... This is sup, super weird. He was also seen on an infrared camera standing in the basement, in the corner where the two bodies are buried.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] He's like, "I did this."
Em Schulz: Yeah, right? Or...
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if he's like, "These are mine."
Em Schulz: Or I wonder if it's like, or he's one of the bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Or it's one of the bodies. Right. True. Wait, that's a great point.
Em Schulz: The... Which makes me wonder why the other one isn't showing up. Like, did he do something to the other ghost if both of them are buried?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe the other one has moved on.
Em Schulz: Hm. The basement also has very nasty, dark vibes. If you're a cop, I guess probably because of like the mobster spirits hated the cops.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, true. They, they can smell it on you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Isn't that weird? So many places where if you're an officer and the place used to be a place that like would get busted.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: Those ghosts fucking hate you!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're screwed. You got... They can... And like, it doesn't even matter if you're off-duty, they can smell it on you.
Em Schulz: But then I get confused too, 'cause like why are there mobsters that are haunting this place? Wouldn't it be the bodies that the mobsters killed here?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I bet you they're sometimes one and the same, right?
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Like they killed each other.
Em Schulz: That's a great point. Didn't even think about that. So yeah. Then no, I don't think I would stay here if there's clearly aggressive people. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, you are a cop, so...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, ain't that the truth? If I'm a cop, it's, it's like a Paw Patrol cop. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say the world will probably fall into a million pieces. But anyway... [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, um, apparently people who have to deliver beer to the bar...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: They sometimes have to go down to the basement alone to like...
Christine Schiefer: They better get the king's treatment, okay, because they're delivering beer to the former speakeasy.
Em Schulz: Well, so a lot of them apparently feel such dread in that basement...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: That they will drop it off, not unload anything. They'll just leave their own equipment and fucking leave. They'll run.
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh no, I thought they'd get like the special treatment.
Em Schulz: You would think. But also, like if you work there and you know how scary it is, like maybe... I wonder whose job it actually is to unload the beer in the basement. Or if everyone's just like pulling short straws of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Hopefully they do it. Hopefully, a new person comes and unloads beer 'cause they won't know and we don't have to deal with it."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, "We'll send them down."
Em Schulz: It almost feels like if the basement is this sinister, like just find storage on the second floor.
Christine Schiefer: Put the beer somewhere else.
Em Schulz: I had one friend growing up and her basement was so haunted...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: She refused to go in that basement. I'd been in her house a million times in my life and she was like, "I'll never go down there."
Christine Schiefer: And Em... You know Em was like, "No, let's just go down real quick. Let's just look."
Em Schulz: Yeah, I was...
Christine Schiefer: You know Em was.
Em Schulz: But she was, she was like scared-scared. I was like, "Oh, if you're not... If you're... You live here and you don't even wanna do it, I'm not gonna do it. "
Christine Schiefer: Then like, "I get the message." Yeah.
Em Schulz: [Yawns] Excuse me. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [Yawns]
Em Schulz: Yawn break. [laughter] So, in the basement, there's a door leading to the storage room in the basement.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The door down there will knock on its own and shake violently and it gives off the illusion that it looks like someone is trapped down there.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Eww. I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Plus the door's latch is bent outward as if someone on the other side is pushing to force themselves out.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Eww.
Em Schulz: So, this door is being shaken so violently that it's breaking. That's, I mean, wild. And there's nothing in there. They'll open the door and no one's in there.
Christine Schiefer: That's freaky.
Em Schulz: Uh, here's one. I, I was trying to figure out... I leave an acronym every now and then in front of my notes...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know that about you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like FF means fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I didn't know what this one meant, AHH, but it's actually just, "Ahh!" So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, American Horror Story? Oh, okay. It's just screaming.
Em Schulz: It's just for me to tell you, "Oh, this is a scary one." [laughter] Um...
Christine Schiefer: I got the message, by the way.
Em Schulz: So, one of the tour guides there, his name's David, and he had to go down to the basement and he saw a 400-pound safe down there that had moved itself to the middle of the room...
Christine Schiefer: Eww!
Em Schulz: Facing the staircase.
Christine Schiefer: Ahh! I get the, I get the A-H-H now.
Em Schulz: Well, you'll really get it now because he sees the safe had moved on its own, 400 pounds, is now facing the staircase. As he's looking at it, he gets an out-of-body experience.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: While standing there staring at the safe, he realizes that he is now on the other side of the room looking at himself...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Staring at, staring at the safe. As he's watching himself from the other side of the basement, whatever body he must be taking over to be looking at himself or whatever is happening, he then realizes that in this, in this point of view, where he's looking at himself, staring at the safe, he, without being able to control himself, starts sprinting at his own body.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, my God! [laughter] This is so scary.
Em Schulz: So, whatever took him over started running at him.
Christine Schiefer: That's horrifying.
Em Schulz: And he could see it from this thing's perspective. He suddenly snaps out of it as this thing's sprinting at him, but he can't see in real-time. And he runs up the stairs before he can find out what it was that was charging at him.
Christine Schiefer: I would never go back down there. Forget it.
Em Schulz: So like... So was that thing... I mean, it must have intentionally taken him over just to freak him out, or like they tapped into one another. That's so weird. I wonder if...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I wonder... My feeling is like there was probably an entity down there messing with the safe, whatever, and then he walked in and somehow his consciousness like, yeah, like...
Em Schulz: Like Bluetoothed with each other.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Bluetooth connection.
Em Schulz: Uh, or it was really intentionally sinister, either way.
Christine Schiefer: Or that, or that.
Em Schulz: I like the idea of like Bluetooth and Heelys. Bluetooth and Heelys. It's... [laughter] Um, so guests have experienced a lot here, but the scariest thing is that just people in general feel in danger when they're here. Um, many people have left because of this, and that's both in the basement and I guess in their own rooms at night. Um, but like I said, more people are coming knowing what's to happen because they know that it's haunted.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, so I, I mean, I think the only people who are willing to stay are either people who have no idea, or uh, someone who has every idea, right? So...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Shaker's is listed among America's most haunted bars with nearly 10,000 people a year coming on their ghost tours.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Woah, that's a lot.
Em Schulz: And there's um, seemingly ghost encounters happening nonstop here. So, if you are in Milwaukee and you need a spooky time, um, Shaker's Cigar Bar. I like to think that during Halloween, they like really amp it up, you know, like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, he has those two skeletons, you know, he bought more at the Halloween store when he bought those.
Em Schulz: I wonder if he's upgraded from like the $10 plastic spirit Halloween ones...
Christine Schiefer: The flat ones.
Em Schulz: To like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Something like, like a cast iron skeleton or something cool. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, lord. He's got them custom made.
Em Schulz: I know. Anyway, uh, sounds like a good place if you want to be haunted. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: You know I do.
Em Schulz: Everyone's got a... Everyone's got a thing that happens to them there, so...
Christine Schiefer: I, uh, I would go there with you, Em.
Em Schulz: I'd go there with you.
Christine Schiefer: We should go.
Em Schulz: And I would leave there with you, too.
Christine Schiefer: And I would... [laughter] I would leave there without you, no offense. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Either way I'm leaving. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, that sounds like a delight. I would go. Let's go. When do we get to go to Milwaukee next? No clue. But I wanna be there, so...
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We can try it. It's, it's like an eight-hour drive from my house, so we could go.
Em Schulz: Cas. It's like an eight-hour...
Christine Schiefer: It's a cas.
Em Schulz: Eight-hour flight to you and then an eight-hour drive there.
Christine Schiefer: It's Just easy.
Em Schulz: We could be there in a day. That's what I'm hearing.
Christine Schiefer: We could be there in 16 hours. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um right now I'm in Virginia, so it'd just be eight hours for both of us.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say it's like an hour flight. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I... We could be there by dinner.
Christine Schiefer: What if you showed up at my door? So what if right now we decided to hang out tonight? Wouldn't that be wild?
Em Schulz: I know what you're doing. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Also it would be so stupid 'cause I literally am like checking in for my flight today. So...
Em Schulz: I literally got on Google Maps just to see just in case for fun. But you're right, you are...
Christine Schiefer: How far is it?
Em Schulz: You are leaving. Hang on. Let me, let me type in your address and see how far we are.
Christine Schiefer: If I were not leaving, I would absolutely drag you over here today.
Em Schulz: Hang on. I'm typing in your address to see how far of a drive you are from my house to your house. We are 383 miles from each other, or eight hours and 25 minutes.
Christine Schiefer: That's doable in a day.
Em Schulz: That's... That's a road trip as far as I'm concerned.
Christine Schiefer: It's a easy road trip, you know. Well...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just saying. [laughter] You wanna help me pack?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, if I didn't have to round-trip, make it a 17-hour situation.
Christine Schiefer: Fair point, fair point.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Fair point, fair point. Uh, you could Heely back. That probably would be faster. [laughter] You could Heely down the freeway.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine me just holding onto the back of someone's truck in my Heelys?
Christine Schiefer: I absolutely can. That's the worst part.
Em Schulz: Me too. I literally have Heelys. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I know you do. I thought that, and then I was like, maybe I invented that. But no, you do.
Em Schulz: Uh, I'm not athletic or coordinated at anything, but I actually am a pretty fucking good Heelyer.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, and you're good at Segwaying. I can't Segway. So like you're clearly... You have...
Em Schulz: I've got a balance situation going on and that's...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. You're good at balance. Have you ever paddleboarded?
Em Schulz: Uh, yes. And I did not fall, but my legs actually, whatever muscles you use to paddleboard, were atrophied and like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: My legs were like shaking like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I...
Em Schulz: I figured it out, but...
Christine Schiefer: I paddleboarded for 0.03 seconds 'cause I stood up and I couldn't... I didn't even stand up before I was already falling.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So that's how my... But to be fair, it was in the ocean. So it was like...
Em Schulz: Ah, that's a, that's a rough one.
Christine Schiefer: Really crazy, but I don't think that...
Em Schulz: I've only done it in a river.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think I could do it like anywhere. I have no balance. So...
Em Schulz: I, I, did it with my mom for Mother's Day one time and she picked the day that we had a severe tornado watch. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord! [laughter]
Em Schulz: And so as we were out there, the view was incredible, but it looks like...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not sure why I was shaking. I'm like, yeah, 'cause a tornado was probably coming your way. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It looked like an apocalypse. And halfway through, um, we ended up having to stop because like the storm was very much coming in.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I don't know what your weather's like and I know you're in a basement, so you probably can't see, but are you in a basement or no? You're just in your closet.
Em Schulz: Uh, I, I used to be in a basement when I came here and now I have upgraded to the guest room.
Christine Schiefer: Oh-hoo-hoo, quit bragging. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's Lisa Lampanelli. She says it all the time. She's always like, "Quit bragging," and when it's like something like really unpleasant.
Em Schulz: She said that to me when I told her I had a headache. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, that's exactly it. It's a great line. Um, but I don't know if you can see, but at least I know we're like 300 miles apart, but now in my head we're neighbors. But there's like definitely [laughter] a storm brewing out here. I'm looking outside and it is ominous. So...
Em Schulz: I wonder if she flew over to you because last night we had a storm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the... Oh, probably.
Em Schulz: Hm. By the way, seeing rain and as a West Coaster, I cried a little bit because I was...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I, I always tell you when it's storming here so you can kind of get the... Well, usually you're just mad that I told you, but, um...
Em Schulz: I love a storm.
Christine Schiefer: I know. So I was hoping maybe you got the same experience. Um, yeah, it looks, it looks creepy and it's perfect because I have a creepy story for you. Em.
Em Schulz: Nice segue there.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you! You know, you're the segue master, but every now and then I can get a segue in there.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, so this is the story of Sherri Papini.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know this one at all?
Em Schulz: Mm-mm. But a fun name.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Blaise was like, "Oh, I know the story," and I was like, "What?"
Em Schulz: Oh. I love when he just delivers out of nowhere.
Christine Schiefer: I just never know what to do. I'm like, "Okay, fine."
Em Schulz: Have you talked to fake Blaise about it? Maybe he can do something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you know what, I've ignored him pretty extensively for most of our relationship, but maybe now... is the time.
Em Schulz: I thought you were gonna say like, "No, 'cause I don't have the first signs of severe mental illness," but...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I have... Well, sure. Let's go with that. Wink. [laughter] Okay. This is the story of Sherri Papini [laughter] um, and it is a doozy. So let's start from the beginning. Keith and Sherri Papini, they were childhood friends. Um, they actually had their first kiss in the seventh grade together and they would write notes to each other in middle school and he actually kept them all the way till he was a grownup.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And why did I say it like that? He was a grownup.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Until he was a grownup.
Christine Schiefer: What's wrong with me? Okay. When they reconnected as adults, Keith dug out the box of old notes and said, "Look, Sherri, what I still have from like decades ago in middle school."
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And they fell for each other after years apart.
Em Schulz: How could you not? I would melt. I would be like...
Christine Schiefer: You would be done. Like it would be...
Em Schulz: I'd be like, please.
Christine Schiefer: If anyone needs like a formula, that's it uh, to get Em onboard.
Em Schulz: Just keep all of your garbage until what, something that associates back to me.
Christine Schiefer: To be fair, I do keep all of my garbage. [laughter] So one day when we reconnect in the nursing home, I will win your heart. I know it.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so Sherri's sister, Sheila, said that Keith and Sherri did these sort of like cutesy things. I mean, God, this is like Em's dream, for each other that you'd like see on TV or read in a novel, like leave little notes and all that. Um, and they had like kind of a, what people called a fairytale romance, um, and got married in 2009. So they moved into the house that Keith had grown up in, his childhood home in Redding, California, which is in the foothills of the Cascade Mountains. And they had two children. They had a son named Tyler and a daughter named Violet. So Sherri was a very active stay-at-home mom. Um, she was doting. She was very involved, always coming up with like activities and, you know, taking the kids everywhere to their extracurriculars. And Keith worked, uh, as an audio-video specialist at Best Buy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So people considered Sherri a super mom and a super wife. She had the energy to do everything. She woke up at 6:00 AM and like filled the kids' days with activities. She meal prepped. She cleaned. She ran errands. She baked. She cooked food. She was like the quintessential like mom figure, you know, super mom.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Keith, uh, was also a super husband. Uh, Sheila said everyone could only hope that their loved ones could find a husband as loving and dedicated as Keith. Um, he came home from work and, you know, the kids ran to him and he took over while Sherri made dinner. They just had a very good balance relationship. So on November 2nd, 2016, Keith was leaving for work at 6:50 AM and Sherri went to go check on Violet. He gave his wife a kiss and a hug and left for work. But when Keith got home that afternoon, things felt off.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. So usually when he opened the door, both kids who were like four and two, I believe, would run to the door to greet their dad when he got home. And Keith called it their family snuggles.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And they did this every day after work. But when he opened the door, the house was silent.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So he started looking around for his family, uh, inside, in the yard, but there was no sign of them anywhere. Um, and he wasn't quite panicked yet. Uh, he and Sherri had Find My Friends on, so he was able to check Sherri's location and according to the app, she was at their mailbox. Now, their mailbox was kind of farther down the road from their home, like a mile away, so it's not like you can just glance out the window and and see the mailbox. It's further down.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: They're kind of in like a rural area. So Keith assumed like, "Oh, okay, well they must have gone on a walk and she took the kids with her." Uh, and so he hopped back into, uh, the car and went to go check. Uh, she was not there, which was odd.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And her car was still in the driveway, by the way. So he was like, "Okay, she's not driving with the kids anywhere." So he thought, oh, you know, hopped in her car, went to check if they were on a walk, they were not there. Very, very odd.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Keith called his mom who hadn't heard from her either, and he started to get more and more worried. He called his kids' daycare and said, "Hey, I'm wondering what time Sherri picked the kids up," and the person on the other end was confused and said, "Sherri never picked the kids up. They are still here." And so now he's really freaked out. Uh, this is not something that has ever happened. She's never left the kids at daycare. Uh, and in that moment, Keith was like, "This... Something bad has happened."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he starts looking for Sherri's phone because he has the app and it says it's right here. And he finds Sherri's phone lying on the side of the road near the mailbox.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: That's when my blood runs cold.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: The headphones were still plugged into it.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Well, that tells you everything you need.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And there was some blood on the cord of the headphones and some pieces of Sherri's hair tangled in the headphones.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Disturbing. So Keith now is in a full panic. He calls 911. He insists something is wrong. Um, and he later told interviewers, "I knew she was taken." So she had been training for a 5K race. Uh, so he suspected based on the phone's location, um, and the headphones that she had been kidnapped while she was jogging. Now, this is like a kind of irrelevant but fun fact for you. Um, apparently she was really into Michael Bublé...
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: And their wedding song was, um, oh my gosh, I forget, uh...
Em Schulz: Was it "Everything"?
Christine Schiefer: Was... I think that's it. Yes.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's my favorite song of his.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Everything. And the... So she always played it to run to and when he picked up the phone, that song was still playing and it was on a loop, like on repeat.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, that's so heartbreaking.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that disturbing?
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: That, that detail like really got me. Um, what's... I think it is Everything. I, I don't wanna... Yeah, I think it is Everything. Um, and so like very, very alarming. Um, clearly, it looked like she had been kidnapped while she was out for a jog because he knew she was training for a 5K. Um, and so I kind of love this fact about him. He actually took photos of the phone on the ground before touching it.
Em Schulz: So smart.
Christine Schiefer: Which I was like, that's fucking genius. Like, you see so many stories where it's just like, uh, oh, they messed up, you know, because of course...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause you're in a panic. But like, the fact that he had the wherewithal to do that, I kind of love. So Keith now calls Sherri's sister Sheila, and Sheila remembers falling to the ground and crying, then telling her husband Sherri had been abducted. And she was just in a panic. She was like, "I don't know if I'll ever see my little sister again." Everyone is getting really worked up. So police contacts Sherri's friends and family. They're trying to piece together clues about her day before she vanished. They checked neighborhood surveillance cameras. They checked in motels. They checked hospitals in case maybe like she had gotten injured. Uh, they contacted her ex who lived out of state, but he hadn't heard from her in over six years.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so any, any type of tip that is coming in, they're following, but the tips lead nowhere. So Keith, like just not knowing what else to do, reaches out to the mayor and he was able to speak at a city council meeting to ask the community for help. And it didn't occur to Keith right away that he would be the prime suspect because, you know, "the husband did it" is usually the refrain and...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Police were thinking, um, "Oh well, uh, you know, he took photos of the phone on the ground and that was just... " You know, it, it seemed like too on the nose for being a good witness...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Or being a good, um, part of the investigation. They were like, "This seems a little staged. Like it seems... You know, maybe he, uh, killed her while the kids were at school and then faked an abduction." Um...
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So that's what they're thinking. So they start questioning Keith about some arrangements he and Sherri had over text before she went missing. So Keith had said when Sherri got angry at him, she regularly sent angry texts and threatened to take the kids and leave. He said he hated confrontation, so Sherri would always up the ante in the arguments to like get to him.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: By like, just escalating until he reacted.
Em Schulz: Would try to like egg him on to have a reaction? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly, exactly. He said he knew their arguments would look surprisingly aggressive via text from the outside um, but he was like, "I swear I had nothing to do with this." And even Sherri's family said they didn't consider Keith had done something for a second. Um, they were that confident in their relationship and they thought there's no way Keith could be involved in this.
Em Schulz: Well, Also like if his alibi, or like if the thing that was... If he killed her, if he killed her, and the narrative looked like, oh, well they had a tumultuous relationship and they were sending angry, threatening texts to each other, why would he plant a phone that looked like it was on loop of their wedding song, you know, like...
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: It like, wouldn't it be a song like, "I hate my husband"?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, wouldn't it not be the... Wait. 'Cause wouldn't he want it to look like they had no, no drama?
Em Schulz: I guess so. Yeah. But I don't know. I feel like if... When you then also like, while you're at it, delete her texts, that'd make it look really bad for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I feel like, um, uh, that's a fair point. Yes. If you were gonna do it "properly", quote unqoute, which is the worst word to use in this scenario.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, probably you would. Um, and so, uh, but yeah, so Sherri's family's like, "There's no way it's Keith." Like they... "He loves her, he cares for her. He's a great dad and a great husband." So Keith volunteered to take a polygraph test and he surrendered his phone, his computer records, was like very, uh, what's the word, um...
Em Schulz: Cooperative.
Christine Schiefer: Cooperative, thank you. And he passed the polygraph, um, and handed everything over. So he's not looking very guilty. Uh, but in the meantime, while this is all going on, Sherri's disappearance has become breaking international news.
Em Schulz: International? Why?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't know. I think it's probably just like, "Oh, a pretty blonde mom of two gets abducted from the side of the road in like a nice neighborhood." You know, it just has all the trappings...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Of like easily consumable...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Crime media. Um, and so at this point investigators still aren't... Like, there's no concrete proof that she was abducted, but her "kidnapping", quote unquote, was all over social media. So whether they had announced that it was officially kidnapping or not, that's kind of what every, uh, everybody went with online. Um, oh, here we go. This is actually the quote I was probably really poorly, uh, butchering, is the host of a show on Oxygen named Abby Schreiber and she said, "Sherri fit the profile of who the media and the public often care about when it comes to missing people. She was white, she was blonde, she seemed to have this perfect life, the perfect marriage, perfect children, and then like the unthinkable happened."
Christine Schiefer: So that's, that's why it became such a media sensation. Um, speaking of which, the FBI got involved immediately, um, which I was kind of surprised by. And within hours of Keith's 911 call, police launched a massive search effort with officers and volunteers. People were scouring the woods, the creeks, the back roads, the ditches. No stone went unturned um, but there was no sign of Sherri whatsoever. They were putting up missing posters all around town. There were even billboards. And locals started tying yellow ribbons around the trees like, you know, to come home, like safe return, come home. Um, and the Papinis were themselves pretty private people. They didn't really use social media, but Keith kind of went out of his comfort zone and started appearing on TV to try and bring awareness to the case and keep the case in people's minds.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, you know, he would say, "I'll do anything to bring her home. Please bring her home." Uh, and their son Tyler at this point was only four and Violet was two. And, uh, the Papini's friends and family cared for the kids around the clock, but poor little four-year-old Tyler could tell something was wrong. And one day, Tyler asked about his mom and he told Keith, "Dad, you can tell me anything." He's four.
Em Schulz: Ohhh.
Christine Schiefer: I know, it breaks my heart. So Keith told his son that Sherri went outside and they didn't know where she was. Mmm.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Tyler asked if they were looking for her. Keith said that the whole world was looking for her and they were going to find her and bring her home. So Keith's mind at this point is racing. Um, he wonders if whoever took Sherri was feeding her, like if she's still alive, you know?
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, there's just a million questions. Um, he said he wondered if she was too hot or too cold, which like makes me cry.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And meanwhile, police weren't calling it an abduction yet because, officially, there was no evidence beyond the phone on the side of the road. But Sherri's family knew someone had taken her, so...
Em Schulz: I mean, I guess that makes me Sherri's family 'cause it's obviously an abduction. Like...
Christine Schiefer: It's like...
Em Schulz: There's blood and hair on it and like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It got yanked out of her head.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And there's no sight of her, sign of her. So search efforts started to kind of wane uh, but Sherri's and Keith's family kept looking. Keith was desperate enough that he started considering psychics. And one day, he saw birds circling overhead. This is like where you realize like how dark it must be to be in this position. He saw birds circling and he realized like, "Oh, maybe they're birds of prey and there's a body that they're above."
Em Schulz: Mmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he... That's where his mind is. He's just like in constant panic mode.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and it's getting difficult at this point for him to hold onto hope, but he keeps pushing. Um, the Papinis launched a GoFundMe account and raised just about $50,000 to fund greater search efforts. And then something... Like there was a weird twist in this story that like I was not expecting, when an anonymous donor for the GoFundMe suggested that the Papinis offer a ransom to Sherri's abductors for her safe return. Now, this is like, apparently this, this businessman who was anonymous, he was like traveling through the area when he saw Keith on TV and he was like so moved by the story that he offered what they called, for like the opposite of a ransom, like uh, a backwards ransom, where like they would pay the criminals to bring her back.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like they offer the ransom rather than...
Em Schulz: Is there a word for that?
Christine Schiefer: I... No, they, they said something, I'm trying to remember. I listened to Case File episode on this the other day. Um, and a reverse ransom is what they called it. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: But this is like not a thing. It's like just something this guy kind of came up with. Um, and it was a little odd because he's just this wealthy businessman and he's anonymous um, but, you know, they went with it and they said...
Em Schulz: I mean, I would do it too, if, if someone I love went missing. I'd be like, "I will pay you to bring her back. Like I'll do... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But this was like a random dude, like it just...
Em Schulz: Oh! Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: In town, in town for work. So it was kind of like, "Huh. Who is this guy?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So this anonymous donor, he suggests that Papinis offer like a reverse ransom to Sherri's abductors for her safe return. And they said the abductor should contact the professional negotiator, uh, whose name was Cameron Gamble. Now, Cameron Gamble was a retired military airman who made his living training soldiers, police officers and citizens how to avoid being captured and how to escape if they are captured. So they're saying now this money is gonna go toward this, this guy and he's gonna help us find Sherri. So in a 2016 interview, he showed ABC his training warehouse where he built kidnap simulators, which is like my worst nightmare. Uh, it's like really intense escape room, sort of...
Em Schulz: Uh!
Christine Schiefer: But it's like you're being abducted and you're, you're training how to get out of the situation, which is scarier than any haunted house, in my opinion.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So on November 18th, this negotiator posted a video to YouTube stating that he had been contacted by someone regarding Sherri's case who wished to remain anonymous. This is this like businessman. He introduced himself as quote, "an international kidnap and ransom consultant," and he addressed the abductors and said, "I don't know your motive, I don't know who you are, and I don't care. We care about getting Sherri back."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So now they're roping in these kind of professionals to try and take, take a new angle at it. On November 23rd, he posted another video. This time he said, "The world has been looking for you, Sherri Papini, and now the world is going to be looking for you, whoever you are," to the abductors. He told the abductors that the ransom was no longer an option. So there was actually a three-day period where the businessman said, "If you don't bring her back in three day, three days, I'm pulling this... " And by the way, the, the sum, like the ransom, was a mystery six-figure sum. That's all...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's all that he said. But after three days when they didn't get Sherri home, this like mystery businessman left town and said that that money was now going toward the reward, to, to the public, to find Sherri.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He said he wanted to make the reward so tempting that even the abductor's own mother would turn them in. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Holy crap.
Christine Schiefer: So the sheriff and others, the police and a lot of people in the public were not thrilled with this. They were like, "This seems like a publicity stunt." Like it almost seemed like this hostage negotiator guy was like plugging his own business as part of this schtick. Like it seemed kind of like a stunt.
Em Schulz: It's like a sponsored ransom.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes! Thank you. That's the best way to put it. People were like, "This is just really weird." Um, but Keith was like, "I don't fucking care. Like I just wanna get... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "My wife back. So I give... "
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't... Yeah, I don't, I don't blame him.
Christine Schiefer: "I give zero shits." So on Thanksgiving Day, uh, it had been 22 years, 22 years, 22 days since her disappearance. Keith gets a phone call, it's the police, and they say, "We have found Sherri."
Em Schulz: Okay... I'm skeptical.
Christine Schiefer: She told the police officers that her abductors had dropped her off in the middle of nowhere on a rural road. She was bound with a chain around her waist.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, her left hand was chained inside the vehicle so she couldn't run. Her abductors had put a bag over her head. And at one point, the abductors pulled over, cut her loose, pushed her out of the vehicle and sped away. So she used her free hand to get the bag off her head, which ended up being a pillowcase and tak in her surroundings. She had no idea where she was. So she ran to the closest house, but uh, nobody answered. So she tried a nearby building, which was locked and empty. Finally, she ran toward the interstate and she started to wave the pillowcase around to flag down a driver.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It turns out Sherri was in Yolo County, California, which was 150 miles from her home. And most people just drove past while she kind of screamed on the side of the road for help.
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, she was like, "Maybe having chains on me made me look like I had escaped from prison," or I don't know. She, she wasn't sure. So she tried to kind of hide the chains and she's waving this pillowcase around. Finally, several people stopped to help Sherri and somebody called 911, and they all described her as frantic.
Em Schulz: Duh.
Christine Schiefer: So then... Yeah, [laughter] exactly. The 911 operator asked to speak to Sherri, and on the phone, she sounded desperate. She cried and begged for the operator to call her husband. She's hyperventilating. Um, authorities told each other over the radio that they were responding to an unknown medical problem and described Sherri as heavily battered and said she was the victim of some sort of an assault. So finally, they get to Sherri. She's, you know, back in, back in safety. And they're asking questions and Sherri says her abductor... You know, they're asking, "Who, who did this to you? Who took you?" And she tells the officers that her abductors were two Hispanic women in a dark SUV. Officers said that in California, that's a very extremely common profile to Hispanic women.
Christine Schiefer: So Sherri says the abductors were always wearing bandanas that covered, uh, you know, everything but their eyes. So she could not tell what they really looked like except that she heard them speaking Spanish often and she did not speak Spanish.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She could only say that one of them had dark, curly hair and that the younger one had dark straight hair, and she believed they were sisters. They held her at gunpoint, forced her into their vehicle. And uh, I guess she said that she tossed her phone at the last second as like a clue to anyone looking for her.
Em Schulz: Smart.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Um, with such a broad description, many Hispanic Latina women feared being profiled and blamed for this crime as like people were out on a hunt for these...
Em Schulz: Ugh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, people, so of course now there were like warnings to people in the area, like "Don't... If you fit this profile at all, don't leave in pairs because like you'll stand out."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you know, "Try to stay indoors, stay out of sight," which is really sad. And so once Sherri was safe in a hospital, authorities called Keith, and when he picked it up, there was an officer on the line telling him to remain calm um, but he heard Sherri in the background screaming Keith's name.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he was like, "Holy shit, she's here and she's alive." Keith talked to Sherri very briefly, then said, "I'm coming." and sped to the hospital to see her. She was extremely emotional. She wouldn't answer any questions until she saw Keith. And, uh, she just kept telling police, "I wanna see someone I know and trust."
Em Schulz: Uh.
Christine Schiefer: So an officer walked Keith to Sherri's room and told him to prepare himself and remain calm because of Sherri's shocking physical state. So Sherri's face was covered in deep violent bruises. Her long hair had been cut off, just like kinda hacked off. Um, she said her abductors had starved her and she... She had weighed 105 pounds, she's 5'3", and now she only weighed 87.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: So she had lost...
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: A lot of weight. Uh...
Em Schulz: How, how, how long was she gone again?
Christine Schiefer: 22 days.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: After 22 days, I would've assumed they were dead.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for sure. I feel like it was... It's shocking to me that they found her alive.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I know.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and so what's more is that the abductors had branded her shoulder with some letters and apparently, it was the word "Exodus", which she described as a disturbing bible passage. She also had burn marks on her arm.
Em Schulz: Was this like some sort of like initiation, like a cult thing or like a...
Christine Schiefer: So the assumption immediately was human trafficking.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so that was... And that was one of the theories when she was missing that maybe she had been taken. And, you know, usually, human trafficking victims are much younger, but since she was so small and slim like, you know, maybe from the back, she looked younger than she was, some of her friends said she could probably pass for 18 even though she was like 30-something.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So maybe that's... Maybe it was a mistake and they thought she was younger than she was. But that was the running theory at this point. So Keith took Sherri in his arms and held her. She cried and said, "I thought I was never going to see you again." And in her interview with Keith by her side, she told investigators that her abductors said they were selling her to a buyer who requested that she be branded.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So that was, uh, the explanation for the brand. And when she was talking to her husband, he was like, "You need to tell police what happened," and she said, "I can't talk to police because they were part of this."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And he's like, "What?" And she tells her husband, "The buyer that was going to buy me was a cop."
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: "And he wanted this brand on me." She said that the two women who branded her kept taunting her, telling her that the news said she ran away, that no one was looking for her. Um, she said when she was confronted at gunpoint, she ripped her own hair out and had left it on the side of the road as like uh, a message to Keith.
Em Schulz: Good. The two of them really are meant to be together because she left clues and he knew not to do anything but take pictures.
Christine Schiefer: And he was like, "A clue!" [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Keith said he felt nauseated looking at Sherri, thinking about what she'd been through. Um, she told Keith at one point that she rolled up a piece of cloth and uh, rocked it, pretending it was Violet to comfort herself.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's really dark. In the 2016 ABC special, uh, reporters and a former FBI profiler considered suspects like cults, like you said, uh, local meth dealers, sex offenders. They addressed online rumors that, um... So people now uh, were starting rumors that this was just a big hoax by either the couple themselves or by this hostage negotiator guy. Like this was some sort of giant like plot.
Em Schulz: What a funny hoax.
Christine Schiefer: What a funny hoax. Um, and if it were a hoax, reporters were like, "I don't know, she was pretty brutally assaulted," and uh, it's hard to imagine Keith could have like played along in such a genuine and horrified way, especially like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Having the two kids at home.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say involving the children.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: It's dark. And, you know, that made sense because Keith was not in on it, but Em, it was a hoax.
Em Schulz: Tell me. [gasp] What? No, it wasn't.
Christine Schiefer: Sherri...
Em Schulz: Tell us... Tell the story again. You didn't do it right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sherri had created the entire thing.
Em Schulz: She, she had like some mental health issues or something? What, what, what... How is that?
Christine Schiefer: Let's get into it. So a year into the investigation, Sherri was giving officers very little information. She acted like she was too deeply traumatized to discuss the details. Meanwhile, at home, Keith said she was jumpy, she got frightened easily by everyday noises. Uh, he told interviewers it would take a professional to, to deal with her PTSD, and he'd be there to support her recovery. But all along, Sherri was putting on an elaborate act that even her own husband didn't realize was phony.
Em Schulz: Funky. What a trip. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What a trip. So soon investigators started questioning parts of Sherri's story that didn't quite make sense. So although both of her abductors were women, forensics only found DNA on her clothes that turned out to match a man.
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: Now, this man was not in CODIS. Um, he was... Didn't have a criminal record, so they couldn't match him. And it took years, uh, for them to kind of uncover who this guy was. Eventually, through genealogy testing, they were able to figure out who this man was and his name was James Reyes. And James Reyes was Sherri's ex-boyfriend.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And...
Em Schulz: The one who said he hadn't seen her in six weeks.
Christine Schiefer: He had not seen her in years. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or six years. Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So I don't know if it was the same one, I will say. I don't know if it was the same one.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: But this was an ex who said, "I have not seen her in years." And they used genetic genealogy. They said, "Hey buddy, sorry, we have your DNA, so nice try." Um, they also discovered that Sherri had been in contact with several men in the days before her disappearance, and they were hidden in her phone contacts under women's names.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Very suspicious.
Em Schulz: Sneaky Sherri.
Christine Schiefer: I know. She had been texting one of the men for five years. His name was Donovan. And Donovan said that Sherri often told him Keith was violent and abusive toward her. She said that Keith kept her locked away in her house for weeks. And actually, they had met in Michigan on a... When she was on a work trip six years earlier. And, uh, they had spent the entire weekend together. And Donovan told police, "She did not tell me she was married during that time."
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: He thought she was single. So investigators tried to verify these reports with friends and family. Nobody agreed. They were like, "Fuck, no. Keith has never touched her." Sherri was a very independent woman. She did what she wanted. She wasn't locked away ever. Like even her own family was like, "Um, no. Like this is not real." She did... She, she was not abused by Keith. She was not locked away by Keith. So investigators start scrutinizing, uh, her whole story, and along with that, they start scrutinizing the identities of Sherri's alleged abductors.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Sherri lived in a primarily white community. And in November, 2016, in the midst of the presidential election, remember that? [laughter]
Em Schulz: No. What's that?
Christine Schiefer: Good times. That was when you...
Em Schulz: When are you gonna talk about that true crime? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That was the dark days right before we started the podcast, November, 2016. Um, so it was the midst of the presidential election and people in her neighborhood had become very vocally anti-Latino. Then a disturbing blog post came to light, and this was from her high school days, and she published it on a website called skinheads.com.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And she had published it under her maiden name, Sherri Graeff. So... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Wasn't even trying to really hide it, right?
Christine Schiefer: No, not even a little bit. Not even a little bit.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The title of her blog post was called "Being Aware and Having Pride".
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: In this post, the author...
Em Schulz: Was homegirl... Oh, well you keep going before I start making wild accusations, but I hear the word pride on a skinhead blog posts and I think I am in the right direction.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, yeah. It, it, it's a one plus one equals two situation.
Em Schulz: Especially when, especially when she already claimed that, "Oh, the bad people here are Latinos... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "That abducted me."
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Uh, so in this blog post written by Sherri Graeff, uh, the author claimed that in high school, her father had often been bullied by, quote, "the Latinos". Allegedly, they hated him and called him a Nazi simply for being of German descent. So he had to stand up for himself against her constant harassment. The author also wrote that she too, was frequently suspended for standing up to the Latinos. She wrote, quote, "The chief problem was that I was drug-free, white and proud of my blood and heritage. This really... "
Em Schulz: Ugh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: "Irked a group of Latino girls." Uh, Sherri insists that she did not write the blog post to this day. She says she did not write it. And she said, uh, somebody made it up and put it... Put her name on it to make her look bad. And she said it gave her a yucky feeling.
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So they tried to figure out if there was a way to trace who wrote it uh, but they couldn't.
Em Schulz: They couldn't do it through like an IP address or anything?
Christine Schiefer: No, 'cause it had been written so... It was 2003. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so it was, it was long... Too long ago to be able to trace where it came from. Uh, Sherri tried to get it taken down saying someone was trying to frame her as a racist. Uh, but regardless of whether or not she wrote the post, she, like you said, relied on stereotypes of Latino people in her interviews with investigators, uh, despite claiming her abductors wore masks to hide their identities. And remember, these abductors were not real. So like at this point...
Em Schulz: Right. So she just made everyone a target in town.
Christine Schiefer: She made new characters up. And she told police that one of the women, quote, "Wore those big hoop earrings, and one of the women had thin drawn-in eyebrows." Uh, she described one of them as having hairy arms.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and she described them wearing bandanas. She was basically like creating this idea of like a quote unquote, "threatening Latina woman" as like a white lady.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: She's creating this. And one of the things that stuck out to me that they mentioned in the Case File episode was that when she was describing how she had been, uh, locked away and, you know, all this, she said, "And they would play this real... " She said, "You know that really loud, annoying Mexican music."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: She's talking about Mariachi.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And she said they would just blast that all day long. It like she's...
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: She's, yeah she's...
Em Schulz: And also, you know what's so weird too, is the, um... She ended up doing the reverse of what I was talking about earlier with the putting her wedding song on loop to make it look like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: The relationship was good versus maybe him trying to plant it to make it look like the relationship was good.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It was sort of like... Yes. It was sort of like she wanted to be like, "It wasn't my husband. I was abducted by these."
Em Schulz: So... Right...
Christine Schiefer: By dark-haired strangers.
Em Schulz: These people she's trying to get revenge on for being mean to her dad apparently or something. Um, so how did she lose all that weight?
Christine Schiefer: She just stopped eating.
Em Schulz: She just, just, just said she... For the, for the bit...
Christine Schiefer: She just cut, cut, cut her calories for the bit...
Em Schulz: "I'm gonna lose 30 pounds in 30 days."
Christine Schiefer: Well, wait till I tell you how she broke her own nose.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, yeah. She was covered in bruises and shit.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Remember the brand?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, no. Wait, what's the verse? Is the verse something fucking...
Christine Schiefer: So all it said was Exodus, which is like a book of the Bible. So it's not like even a verse. Like I just...
Em Schulz: I didn't know if it was like... You know how Deuteronomy is like one of the more problematic ones? So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So it is, it is in the Old Testament. So it is definitely like one of the old timey creepy ones. Like it...
Em Schulz: I was worried it was like a racist, uh...
Christine Schiefer: It might be, actually.
Em Schulz: Verse or something.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I, I don't know. That's a great point. Um, all I know it is in the Old Testament and, uh... She kept saying it's, it's a disturbing Bible passage, but I'm like, it's actually an entire book of the Bible. So I don't know like if she just didn't know or if she just knew it was like the Old Testament and had like creepy meaning to it. I don't know. I'm not...
Em Schulz: So and on her shoulders, so how did she brand herself?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'll tell ya. So, [laughter] when police are finally unraveling like, "Oh my God, this was all a hoax... " And by the way, they'd spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on this case trying to find her, and think about where that money could have gone...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To actually helping people who were being trafficked or were being, uh, abused or... It just, just makes my... Makes me sick. So, uh, as they're getting kind of... As they're finally able to untangle this, uh, they start hearing from Sherri's family. Sherri's family and friends say, "Well, Sherri has a history of making things up and running away." And, uh, one woman named Asia Coleman told the sheriff that is how she used to deal with things as a child. When things got hard, she would just run away. Uh, one friend said, "She does tend to be a little dramatic, a little exaggerative."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And one ex-boyfriend said he broke up with Sherri after two years because she kept making up stories for attention. Uh, I mean, she made up a lot of things.
Em Schulz: That's a... That's one big honking story.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Um, she actually would create almost different realities for people like...
Em Schulz: Like fake Allison.
Christine Schiefer: Like fake Allison!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh! [laughter]
Em Schulz: Look, if the, if the, if the farthest, my lack of sanity goes is me pretending my girlfriend is next to me, I'm in the clear.
Christine Schiefer: And you're just complimenting her. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just telling her she's beautiful and I'll catch real Allison up the next day. But like, um... Wow. Okay. I'm sorry. [laughter] Okay, so she's got, she's got a lot of fake realities.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So she presents herself to different people in like very different ways, and not just like, oh, she acts different around different people. Like, she creates entire backgrounds that are fake for different people.
Em Schulz: That's so wild.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Um, so she... Like, for example, she would make up like illnesses, she would make... Oh, she told one, uh, ex-husband that she had a heart murmur, but then that wasn't real.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: And then she told her like current husband she had like uh, some other health issue.
Em Schulz: So pathological.
Christine Schiefer: Pathological, like since she was young, has been making stuff up. She would tell her friends that her, her family like abused her and treated her terribly, but then she told everybody that each man she was with treated her terribly. And like it became clear that this was all fake because the number of people that she accused of like locking her away and beating her, like after interviews and after plenty of, uh, other witnesses, police were like, "Okay, this isn't real. Like she, she lies."
Em Schulz: I'm honestly impressed with how much she could get away with if she's been with the same person since she was 12.
Christine Schiefer: So... Well, they... It wasn't the same person. So they had that like little middle school romance, but then like...
Em Schulz: And then they rekindled it.
Christine Schiefer: So she had gotten married like in-between there. Um, so they had had other relationships before, you know, like 15 years later when they got back together.
Em Schulz: Sure. Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Um, so in an interview with investigators, Sherri told them she was a fan of true crime shows and randomly told them, uh, this was before anyone knew she was faking it, randomly told them that she had read Elizabeth Smart's memoir, which is just...
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: Great. Uh, then Sherri's ex-boyfriend James Reyes finally broke the entire case. Uh, he told investigators that he had lied when Sherri went missing and when they... So it was the same boyfriend, sorry. So when he had said, oh, he hadn't heard from her in six years when they first reached out to him, that was the same guy that she ended up being with.
Christine Schiefer: So James tells investigators that he had lied when Sherri went missing, and when he said he hadn't seen from her or heard from her in years. In fact, this is what actually happened. Sherri had reached out and asked him for help. She told him that Keith was abusing her and she needed to escape. This was a blatant lie, but he believed her. He was like, "Oh my gosh, she's in danger. She's an old friend. I wanna help her." So he followed Sherri's instructions. He, uh, had a friend rent a car so that he could pick Sherri up. It's a nine-hour drive. So he drives up to pick her up. She gives him explicit directions, tosses her phone and gets in the backseat and lays down so that like no one sees her. And he has to turn around and drive nine hours back. So he drove nine hours up, picked her up, and then he turned around, drove nine hours back to the point where he was like falling asleep at the wheel, but she was just in the backseat napping.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, they went back to his apartment and she stayed there. She, she stayed in his bed while he slept on the couch. And this was for several weeks, for 22 days. Uh, she's just sleeping on his bed and nothing sexual happened. It was not like a romantic thing. She just said, "I need to get away from my family." And so he didn't have a TV. So he didn't realize like, the extent to which this had become like a phenomenon, her missing. Like he didn't realize how... What he was involved... Like the extent to which he was involved in this. He really didn't. So she's staying in his bedroom. He's sleeping on the couch. He just goes to work every day. And she never left his apartment. Uh, she stopped eating. Uh, she really cut down to lose the weight. She hacked off her own hair.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and she self-inflicted all the wounds that she claimed came from her Hispanic abductors.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So she told investigators she had been stomped on, kicked, beaten with various objects. She said they shut her in a closet. Uh, and incredibly, she actually got James to help her inflict some of the injuries, like the brand on her shoulder. Uh, she basically had him go buy a wood, wood-burning tool from, uh, like my imagination is Michael's or Hobby Lobby, like...
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: A wood carving tool. And then she told him to write Exodus on her shoulder and he was like, "I don't know what it means."
Em Schulz: Which like, that's a lot of letters.
Christine Schiefer: It's a lot of letters. Why didn't she write Luke? That's another book of the Bible.
Em Schulz: Or, hi.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, or just a letter. A letter would've been vague enough too, right?
Christine Schiefer: Okay, this part I find a little funny knowing what we know uh, because at the hospital, they were examining her for her injuries and they saw the brand and they said, "Wow, it looks like a series of letters. Like we can't make out what it says." And she went, "I think it says Exodus." Like she, she knew what it said because she told him to write it, but they couldn't tell 'cause it was all scabbed and like she couldn't...
Em Schulz: It's so, it's so weird that she also clearly wanted Exodus of all things.
Christine Schiefer: It is weird.
Em Schulz: It's like so weird. Like there has to be a reason behind Exodus for her to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I wonder. And it's like, I'm not gonna read the whole bible chapter, but... I don't know. Or the Bible book. But I don't know, man. It's... It must mean something. Um...
Em Schulz: Book of Exodus.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, listen, I scrolled through the Wiki and it's long.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. The main message, how God delivered the Israelites and made them his special people, the, the overall theme is redemption and the word means exit or departure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. I learned nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's basically like the Israelites leaving Egypt.
Em Schulz: I don't know. It means nothing to me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe she just thought it sounded cool. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So by early morning... So, oh, by the way, the, the broken nose, I meant to tell you, uh, that happened because she told him to hold... Like he wouldn't hit her. He's like, "I'm not gonna hit you."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But she told him to hold up a hockey stick...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he played hockey, and she ran into it and broke her own nose.
Em Schulz: How do you even run into...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, but the thought of it makes me wanna scream.
Em Schulz: I... First of all, maybe it's 'cause I'm just bad at all physical movement, but I couldn't...
Christine Schiefer: You can paddleboard, my dude. So...
Em Schulz: I can't run fast enough to break my own nose into a stick that someone's holding.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds... Horrific.
Em Schulz: I feel like that took a few times.
Christine Schiefer: I was thinking the same thing. Um, and so that's how she had all these injuries, self-inflicted. But apparently, on Thanksgiving morning, Sherri said she missed her kids and she wanted to go home. So she told him to rent another car and drive her back. So he dropped her off on the side of the road and she took the pillowcase and started screaming and made a whole scene. Uh, they revealed to Sherri that James had told them everything after this, uh, this confession.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, they brought both Sherri and Keith back in, and by that, by now it's August of 2020. So this has been like years, uh, that they've been trying to figure out what happened. Like so, so many wasted resources.
Em Schulz:Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, they revealed to Sherri that James had told them everything and it was, it was too late to try and claim this was... Oh, by the way, when [chuckle] when they told Sherri and Keith like, "Oh, we know what really happened." Sherri was cornered, obviously. Like she knew they were about to get found out. Keith was thrilled 'cause he thought, "Oh, they finally found... "
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: "Sherri's abductors." And she's like getting really upset and he... And there's footage of them whispering and he's like, "What is wrong? Like, this is great news. They've got your abductors." She is whispering to him, "I don't want them, um, to arrest the, the younger Latina woman because she saved my life." And he's like, "What?" And she goes, "He, she saved my life. She's the one that dropped me off on the side of the road. So I don't want them to find her. We have to stop them from going any further." [laughter] So she's like trying everything she can to like...
Em Schulz: She's floundering.
Christine Schiefer: She's floundering! She's completely floundering. So they come in and they're like, "Yo, there are no two Hispanic women. Like, stop saying that. That's not real." And so she's trying to deny it. She keeps crying and saying, "It can't be, it can't be," and they're like, "Well, it is, so we don't know what to tell you." And when Keith hears this, he just walks out of the room.
Em Schulz: Yeah, of course.
Christine Schiefer: He just like, doesn't know what to do. He's been by her side from day one.
Em Schulz: And panic, full panic mode for three weeks.
Christine Schiefer: Full panic for three weeks with the two kids. Uh, he believed every word out of her mouth until it was like right in front of him. 'Cause he was that devoted to her. He, he really believed it until it was right in front of him and he couldn't deny it any longer. Um, she lied over and over. He found out also during this time that like she had been talking to other men and had had that affair in Michigan.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: So like through all of this, he is like on her side. Um, so two locals at this point, Terry and Marilyn Smith, had been huge supporters of the Papinis because their own daughter, this is so fucked up, has been missing since 1998 and...
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: Actually disappeared from the same road and went to the same high school as Sherri.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So essentially, she staged her own kidnapping to look like the one from 1998 of her classmate. And so Terry and Marilyn had been so supportive because their own daughter had gone missing. And so for years now, they've been like helping her to recover and been there for her and now they find out that she made it all up, and they said it was like a slap in the face. On top of that, the Latino community had been on the edge or have been on edge ever since the abductors' descriptions and composites were released and now people were outraged. Like Sherri had just blatantly framed a specific group as the villain in her story for no reason other than...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like pointing at that group of people. So she had even told investigators that her abductors were listening to Mariachi music, and this was, uh, in the car and at the house. And she described it as "that annoying Mexican music." So that's classy. Um, one man said "There are no dangerous, masked, gun-toting Hispanic Latino women here wanting to abduct your children, especially if they're white." Like people were just pissed off.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Sheriff Michael Johnson was outraged that Sherri had diverted vital resources from real cases and actual victims of human trafficking, especially in a state where many victims of trafficking are women and girls and by the way, oftentimes from Latino communities and places like South and Central America, because white women are not usually the target of human trafficking. It's usually vulnerable people in vulnerable communities who are being told by someone they trust that they're gonna find a better life and they're gonna take them somewhere, uh, safer and somewhere where they can, you know, make a good living, and then that's when... That's typically how human trafficking works. So the fact that she's like, "Oh, I'm white and they wanted to sell me to a police officer," like it's just all so infuriating.
Em Schulz: It's all just like making a full mockery of it.
Christine Schiefer: A mockery.
Em Schulz: Especially like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: To... Like you were saying earlier, like, "Oh, she looks 18, or... " I feel like there's like gotta be some level of narcissism there of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: "Oh, I'm, I'm young and hot enough to be heavily violently sexualized and... "
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. And she said too... Um, so she had actually just gotten a breast augmentation like the week before.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And, and she described it as like, "the pain of like getting branded while my breast implants were still healing." And it's like, you did the... Like you timed this out. Nobody branded you without... Like, this was your idea.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: It's just bizarre. The whole thing's so bizarre. And people were like pretty shook because... There were... There was a vocal group of people online saying... And I remember this happening. I remember there being a big debate about whether she made it up. And a lot of people were like, "This just does not track, something's going on. She made it up, or she and her husband are in on it." So when it was finally revealed, a lot of people were like, "Told ya." But a lot of people were genuinely shocked um, obviously. Like they really believed everything she said. So Sherri had blamed her fake tragedy on the very women who were most likely, by the way, to be victimized by a real human trafficker, which is super fucked up. And in the end, she really did like... This was... The way they put it on Case File too, is like this was not a victimless crime...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Just because nobody died directly because of it. You know, she did untold damage to the lives of her family, her friends, I mean, her poor kids, I can't even imagine, um, entire communities. And by the way, she has never given like a motive. Like she's never even tried to explain, not even a fake motive. Like she's never...
Em Schulz: It's wild.
Christine Schiefer: It's bizarre. Like she's never said, "Oh, I wanted money, I wanted this, that, the other."
Em Schulz: I think she just wanted attention. It sounds like a pathological liar situation.
Christine Schiefer: Just attention. Yeah. I think that's all that it boils down to. Um, so in 2022, Sherri was charged with making false statements and mail fraud because some of the money she had received, um, she... Oh, by the way, she received money from the fricking California Victim's Compensation Board to pay for her therapy and her PTSD treatment. And she had collected $30,000 from the Victim's Compensation Board. Like...
Em Schulz: They paid her... They paid it back.
Christine Schiefer: So yes, she was required to pay restitution...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Over $300,000 because these were resources used searching for her, uh, the $30,000 victim fund uh, the money from the GoFundMe that all these people...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Are donating, you know, 50k. And by the way, this is when I start to wonder about this fucking mystery businessman who's offering a six-figure sum. Like I just...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: That's so shady to me and it really makes me wonder if she was just on the computer at this guy's house like posting.
Em Schulz: Has to be.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah. And I don't know, like this has never been addressed in any of the sources I looked at, but it's just a thought, like, have we looked into this guy? 'Cause who's this anonymous businessman that nobody has ever named who just...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Felt compelled to offer half a million dollars or whatever it was for someone he doesn't know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The whole thing is just shady. It's just weird. So as much as she was ordered to pay restitution, the judge commented that she was unlikely to ever pay it back because it was hard to imagine anyone ever hiring Sherri to work again. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, "Good luck getting your money back. No one's gonna hire her." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: She was also sentenced to 18 months in prison. And the one... Like, it's not even really a silver lining, but like the one good move, I guess, is that Keith, who had stood by her through the, the affairs, through all of this, uh, this, the day he found out that she made it up, he filed for divorce that day.
Em Schulz: Good, good, good, good.
Christine Schiefer: And he told the press, "My current focus is on moving on and doing everything I can to provide my two children with as normal, healthy, and happy of a life as possible."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And that's the story of Sherri Papini.
Em Schulz: Ooh. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm sorry I misled you. I know. I do that sometimes. And I, I felt bad about it this time 'cause I'm like...
Em Schulz: No, no. I love the twist.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Because it, it... If you frame it a certain way, it's like hard to believe that it's a hoax. But then the way they presented it on Case File, which I, I think they did a really good coverage of it, was like from the beginning, they kind of hinted that it was a hoax. Like they said, you know, they talked about all the people who were skeptical and...
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: But I kind of left all that out 'cause I was like, "I want it to be a plot twist." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I love a plot twist. I love the drama.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I know.
Em Schulz: Especially 'cause I had just said, "Oh, that would be a stupid hoax or something," and you're like, "Guess what?"
Christine Schiefer: I know you were like, "Nice... " You're like, "Funny hoax." I'm like, "Yeah." But you're right, [laughter] like not funny at all. Um, really not funny. And just Looney Tunes, man. It's just bananas. It's noodles all the way to the top.
Em Schulz: Well, great story. Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: What a doozy.
Em Schulz: I mean, terrible. I hope Keith is doing okay, you know. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Me, too. And the kids. I mean, I hope... I mean, you know, all you can hope is like, hey, they come out of this with um, I don't know, just love and support and feel equipped to, to live their lives. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it can be so daunting to think of like, what if you went through that? What if your kids went through that? But I don't know. I hope that at least they, uh, come out stronger on the other side. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, good job, Christine. I...
Christine Schiefer: Thanks.
Em Schulz: I don't, I don't know what to say for after that. [laughter] How do we segue out of here?
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, let's segue go on out. Um, we need an ending. Like, I feel like every frickin' podcast has like uh just an ending that's like, "And this is that and this has been that. And that's why we drink." I feel like we need to find a smoother way, you know?
Em Schulz: It'll never happen, it seems.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm gonna send you photos, by the way. I forgot.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, just to like give you an idea. And that way Eva can put them on Instagram.
Em Schulz: Good call.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, we're not gonna post the kids 'cause that is inappropriate. But, uh, you know, she looks to me...
Em Schulz: Oh my God, she's all beaten up.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And those sweatpants. And those sweatpants ended up being, um, that guy's, uh, James' sweatpants.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Which is why they only found male DNA. And like, I didn't really give the full picture, but, uh, but it took years to find out who this guy, who this mystery person was. Um, like it took years and years. So it wasn't as quick as like, "Oh, we found male DNA, let's match it." Like they didn't know for many years.
Em Schulz: Oof. Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: So here are just some photos. But yeah, I mean, what a fucking... You know who she looks like to me, that, that woman from, um, criminal minds.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The blonde one.
Em Schulz: Oy. Well...
Christine Schiefer: I think... Wait, no, not Criminal Minds. SVU. I'm sorry. SVU. The one who's kind of... I think it's SVU, right? Am I wrong?
Em Schulz: Now I don't know anyone that I was think of.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Detective Rollins. Hold on. Let me send you a picture.
Em Schulz: Oh, kind of. Who was I thinking of for Criminal Minds? I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Here. This is the one. Uh, I'll send you this separately so that Eva doesn't think this is part of the... [laughter]
Em Schulz: No. I don't want Amanda Rollins.
Christine Schiefer: Amanda Rollins, yeah. Um, I think they look alike. Anyway, uh...
Em Schulz: What are you doing for the rest of the day, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I'm packing. What are you doing?
Em Schulz: I don't know. Oh, I'm holding the baby.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're seeing the baby. Seeing baby, baby.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, thank you everyone for, um, listening again for the 341st time in your life. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so proud of you and thankful for you all.
Em Schulz: And, uh, I guess we'll, we'll see you next week. We have, you know, good stuff on Patreon to keep you busy in the meantime. We've got our listeners episodes.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You can also, um, you know, submit your own stories for the next episode if you'd like and all that good stuff. Find us on social media. I'm always up to some bullshit on Instagram.
Christine Schiefer: That, that is true. I can confirm that.
Em Schulz: And, uh, and good luck to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, follow my, follow my Sweden trip on Instagram. Although probably by the time this comes out, I'll probably be home. [laughter] So I don't know. I don't know when this comes out, but, uh, eh.
Em Schulz: Until then, stay hydrated.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Stay hydrated.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
Christine Schiefer: God, we need a better ending.
