E340 Midnight Moon Bounces and Moody Away Messages
TOPICS: THE DEMON OF BROWNSVILLE ROAD, KELLY COCHRAN
Brownsville Road house
Kelly Cochran
Jason Cochran
Christopher Regan and Terri O’Donnell
It's episode 340 and we miss your celery kisses! This week Em brings us the creepy, gasp-worthy story of the Demon of Brownsville Road. Then Christine covers the salacious story of Kelly Cochran. And are we bringing emo back? ...and that's why we drink!
Don't forget, you can always submit your topic suggestions on our website (especially paranormal stories to make Em feel better about having enough topics)! andthatswhywedrink.com/contact
And check out our new, improved Patreon after chats! We're diving into case updates and new hot paranormal news topics! patreon.com/atwwdpodcast
TRANSCRIPT
[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, we're rolling.
Em Schulz: Uhh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Amen.
Em Schulz: Yeah [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ditto.
Em Schulz: How are you, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Listen. I'm so stressed 'cause I'm going...
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: To Sweden in like six days, less than six days.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And I...
Em Schulz: I did remember this.
Christine Schiefer: I don't... I can't wrap my head around bringing a toddler to Europe for several weeks. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: I know...
Em Schulz: I thought you weren't gonna do that.
Christine Schiefer: I know I'm...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: I'm terrified.
Em Schulz: You should be.
Christine Schiefer: I'm terrified.
Em Schulz: That sounds awful. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Sounds really scary.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I, I feel like it'll be fun 'cause all four of her grandparents will be there. So it's like, it's not...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Just like me, Blaise, and the baby. So it's like, "Oh, someone take the... " Like, they'll be thrilled to take the baby off our hands. You know what I mean? So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. You've got built-in setters at least. It's, it's not like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's just the plane that I'm nervous about. I bought, I bought so much shit for the plane. Like, Em, I did that thing where I bought like every conceivable item to prepare in like my, in my like, uh, corporate, uh, capitalist way of approaching a problem.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know, I'm like...
Em Schulz: Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the plane's gonna be stressful 'cause it takes three legs to get. We go to Detroit...
Em Schulz: Oh, geez.
Christine Schiefer: Then we go to Amsterdam. Then we go to, uh, Sweden. And I'm like, "This is gonna be like a 18-hour... " I, I don't know how many hours, a long, long, long...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, do you know the length? You don't know length?
Christine Schiefer: I don't. Uh, but a long time. Umm, so I was like, "Okay, so what could we possibly need?" So I bought an inflatable footrest so she can sleep on the plane in the middle seat. I bought, umm, I don't even... Oh, I bought a suitcase she can ride on. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Precious.
Christine Schiefer: I bought like literally everything you could possibly, like... If you type in "toddler travel." I own it now.
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and I've really gone off the deep end here. Umm, and I do this when I'm preparing for something I'm stressed about. I'm like, I'll throw money at it and see if that works. And it... I probably use half of it.
Em Schulz: Well, my favourite thing when I'm, when I'm having a big feeling buying myself a little treat is the best thing. Right? So...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't the... It's the best thing. It feels like you're doing something productive and like making it... Making the problem easier. Umm, but like the amount of sticker books I bought, like, is it gonna do anything? I don't... Maybe. I don't know. We'll, we'll find out.
Em Schulz: After five minutes she's gonna be like, she's gonna be like, "A sticker? What... How is this gonna keep my attention?" But maybe you'll keep your attention.
Christine Schiefer: Well, she likes to play with like a frigging pencil. So she better be entertained by stickers. Like, hello...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean. The bar is not very...
Em Schulz: You should've bought a 1000 pencils. I don't know. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I did. Trust me. I bought everything.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I bought everything. Umm, anyway, so I'm just on, on edge about that. But otherwise, I'm, I'm okay. How are you?
Em Schulz: Oh, well, compared to that, I'm dandy. That sounds...
Christine Schiefer: Oh good. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I feel, I feel for you. That sounds really overwhelming. Umm, especially because when I travel, my main goal is how many of these hours can I sleep? But when you're a parent, you don't get that. You'd have to be...
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm like, how many hours can she sleep, please?
Em Schulz: Right, right...
Christine Schiefer: Please, dear God.
Em Schulz: Right, right. And then... Oh, did you have like a leash or something? Like, uh, I'm very pro...
Christine Schiefer: I did. I bought a leash.
Em Schulz: Child leash. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I bought a leash. Okay. It's a... It's one of those ones and they're very controversial. I understand. And I know, I know people are like, it hinders their independence. But if I'm walking down like the Champs-Élysées or like one of these fucking giant eight-lane streets with a toddler, like I want her to be... And she's a runner, you know, like, I'm like...
Em Schulz: Right. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: I don't want her running.
Em Schulz: I personally don't see the controversy in a parent's main priority being making sure she's safe and not stolen or running away.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And, and it's, it's, it's one of those things where I'm like, I'm not gonna just put it on her every second of the day. It's just like if we're in a busy airport...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And she wants to walk or run, like, I'd rather... And it's, it's not like a lea... Like, it's like a harness that goes around. Umm, it has a cute little monkey on it, and it just goes to the back. So it's not like gonna pull her arm out of her socket or whatever people are worried about. Umm, and it... I know... Like, I looked up the controversy 'cause I was like, "Well, I wanna know both sides." And it's basically like, "Oh, well you don't wanna, like, hinder their independence." And I'm like, Trust me. But I don't think I could if I tried. Like, I don't think I could hinder...
Em Schulz: Also...
Christine Schiefer: Her independence if I wanted to.
Em Schulz: As a non-parent, I don't think I mind hindering their independence in a city neither of us are aware of. I'm like... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: That's like... I think that's what it is. I feel like the line...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I feel like there's a gray area of like, Okay, traveling maybe is a special circumstance. Like, I'm not taking her to the park and putting a leash on her, not letting her go play on the playground. Like, that's...
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Not what I'm doing. Umm, but so I did buy... Like, I, Em, I bought literally everything. It's...
Em Schulz: Well, my thought is like, what if you... I mean, at some point you have to take a nap. You have to. And so like, what if she goes taking off on the plane? I mean, I guess...
Christine Schiefer: Huuhh.
Em Schulz: You can't go too far on a plane, right? So I, I guess maybe the plane's the best place for her to take off [laughter] But, Umm...
Christine Schiefer: She can, uh... One, one of the... I think the best tip I saw from parents online... Like I was reading like tips and articles. One of the best tips was, "do not tell your toddler, until you absolutely need to like, hold it as a trump card, tell them that they can walk down the airplane aisle." Like, wait till it's like the last straw. Because if you tell them at the... Right at the beginning, the entire flight they're gonna be like, "I wanna go walk down the airplane." And you're like...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "Shit." Now they know you can do that. If you pretend like we have to stay in our seats the whole time and then they're getting so antsy that you're finally like, "Okay, let's take a little walk down the... " You gotta save it for last, save it for the, the special occasion.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so anyway, I've learned a lot about very insignificant things. But, Umm, here we are.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and I'm drinking this. I got this at Jungle Jim's. It's a Mezzo Mix. It's a German special. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh, what is that flavor?
Christine Schiefer: It's Coca-Cola... Or not Coca-Cola, but it's... Oh, it is Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola with, umm, orange soda in it, sort of. It's like an...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Orange-flavored Cola. It's really delicious. Umm, and it's all written in German. Umm, so I'm, you know, really preparing... Oh, Austria, Coca-Cola Austria made this, cool.
Em Schulz: Good for them.
Christine Schiefer: It is a little weird 'cause it says "Cola kisses orange" on the front of it.
Em Schulz: Mm, I don't... I've... [chuckle] Christine, I miss your Cola kisses.
Christine Schiefer: Awww, I miss your celery kisses. [laughter]
Em Schulz: [laughter] Girl, that's a really R rated kiss. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ah, it's a deep cut.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's a really crazy kiss for you to, to say anything about.
Christine Schiefer: I don't remember what it meant...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: But I know we talked about it a long time ago.
Em Schulz: It was like, it was like a three-way, four-way make out. That's all [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, nevermind. I don't wanna be part of that. Thanks anyway.
Em Schulz: Oh, I do. It was a good time. Anyway, uh...
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "You didn't... You weren't invited, Christine."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, well, speaking of babies and, uh, why I drink, as you can tell, if you're a YouTube watcher, I am not in the usual Troll Hole. I'm actually in the closet euphemism, or pun intended.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm, and I am back at my mom's house. Uh, by the way hold the goddamn phone. First thing I did when I got to Virginia...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Was see Christine and Xandy.
Christine Schiefer: Awww.
Em Schulz: At Beach Too Sandy and they just had the greatest show in the whole world. And it was...
Christine Schiefer: It was like...
Em Schulz: It was, it was, you guys did so great.
Christine Schiefer: The greatest time ever. Em was there. Em had an entire receiving line, uh, that went like through the venue and Linda was just eating it up, man. She was like taking photos of Em's little VIP line. It was amazing. The next day we got tagged in so many pictures, and so we would open them and they would all be Em and like people...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Fans, and they were like, and then they would just tag Beach Too Sandy in the corner. And we were like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "This is hilarious," it was so great.
Em Schulz: I, I was... You have some very good fans who happened to overlap into our fandom. And...
Christine Schiefer: It was hilarious. They were so amped you were there, umm, that was fun.
Em Schulz: And everyone was very kind. Everyone did a... I also made sure, like as I was taking pictures with people, I was like, "I don't want to steal Christine's thunder... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: "So like, let's make this super quick."
Christine Schiefer: Please do.
Em Schulz: Umm, but everyone was super respectful. It was actually... It moved a lot faster than some of our meet and greets that have had security. Everyone was just so on top of like being really respectful. It was very kind. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Awww. They probably wanted to get back to their, umm, nachos at the table. But yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But it was, no, I was very proud of you. And I was also the only...
Christine Schiefer: Awww.
Em Schulz: Time I've ever been in a theater with you and not terrified. So...
Christine Schiefer: And not had the like propranolol situation. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm happy. I'm so happy you were able to go and your mom came and my mom and your mom got to see... And my mom came, which was kind of a surprise. So they got to see each other again. We got a photo of the two of them. It was, uh, it felt like the old days, you know.
Em Schulz: There was one person who came to your show who was sitting between the table with me and my mom and the table with your mom and all of your family.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And so I, I feel like they kind of in like, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they were just smashed in the middle.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like if they're a big fans of either of the shows, and it was probably to them maybe like hitting the lottery because to their left was Renate.
Christine Schiefer: Are you sure those weren't my... Are you sure those weren't my cousins that just came...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: And had no idea what was going on?
Em Schulz: No be...
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: Unless your cousin wanted to take a picture with me and said they were the biggest fan ever. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no no I thought you meant they were just like watching from the sidelines. Umm...
Em Schulz: No it was just very... Like, I'm sure they were like, "Oh man, I got the best seat in the house. 'cause I'm like... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: "Surrounded by all the people, uh, that I've been hearing about."
Christine Schiefer: They're everywhere. Yeah. Umm wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, but anyway, you did a great job and I'm very proud of you. But...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you that's so sweet. Uh, it was...
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It meant so much that you made the drive up. Really, it did.
Em Schulz: It's... It was an hour. That's LA... That's an LA dinner. You know, that's, you know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's an LA uh...
Em Schulz: Drive to a restaurant.
Christine Schiefer: Jaunt. Jaunt to the pharmacy. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's a hop, skip, jump, whatever away. Umm, no, but so I'm home because Deirdre had a baby and I came, I came here to...
Christine Schiefer: He's so cute. He's really cute and like, you know, we don't say that about all babies or we don't think it about all babies. But he's very cute.
Em Schulz: I definitely was prepared to lie to her and say she had a cute baby incase she...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, of course you said that to me. You said, "I will try to... I," you said to me, "I will lie to your face and I will lie very well." And I was like, "Thank you."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "I appreciate that."
Em Schulz: And I meant it and I meant it with Deirdre too. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: You did.
Em Schulz: I was like, "I'll, I'll tell you he's cute. Even if he is not... " 'cause there's, you know, he'll grow into it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But this baby actually just really popped out...
Christine Schiefer: He's very cute.
Em Schulz: Pretty adorable. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: He didn't really just pop out. I think it seemed like it was a lot longer.
Em Schulz: He got cut out.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He got, he got sliced out. But it's okay, umm, that, you know, it's sometimes that happens.
Em Schulz: So now I've got a Leona and...
Christine Schiefer: Is mom holding up well as a deer... Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And a, and a baby that's a Leo. So, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh you got two Leos.
Em Schulz: I know. And, uh...
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: It was, it was a good time. We, I the, well, not for Deirdre, but...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: For me. Umm, we were at the... I was at the hospital the whole time and it was...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Quite a party in the waiting room.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Em goes, "Oh, I'm here. Uh, Deirdre's getting induced." And I was like, "Are you there for three days? What are you doing?" And like indeed Em was there for the long haul. I was like, "Wow, you are a trooper."
Em Schulz: I was... We were in the hospital for like 40 hours. It was... And no sleep. It was, we were all just so slap-happy. Umm, but it was like... It was really lovely 'cause it's her family that I've grown up with and so it was just so like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like your family basically.
Em Schulz: At 03:00 in the morning we were just all very delirious and everything was hysterical and the poor people who had to share a waiting room with us probably hated us. But...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, I wanted to say...
Christine Schiefer: Awww I'm so happy.
Em Schulz: Uh, that is one-half the reason I drink a R... An Arnie P from Starbees today.
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: Umm, but the other reason I drink, which was... This is so random, but I just wanted to mention it because it was like such like a euphoric experience...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, which with all my health stuff, I never get to talk about euphoric experiences. So here's one. Umm, we... While I was home, she had the baby far away from my house. So we were driving and gonna stay in a hotel the night before we went to the hospital and we stopped halfway at one of our other friend's houses who was having a birthday party. And I ended up staying the whole time. I caught... Like caught up and got back in touch with some, like a friend from high school and I guess she had like her nieces at the party. So they, they rented out like this big moon bounce for all the kids that were gonna be at this party.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And, uh...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: If you follow... If you saw my Instagram story a while back, you might've seen the post about it. But it was just such like a, a lovely moment. We uh...
Christine Schiefer: Awww.
Em Schulz: After all the kids left and all the adults, there was only like five of us left. And it was me, two of my best friends from high school and then two other people that I'd just met that night.
Christine Schiefer: Awww.
Em Schulz: And it was in the middle of the night. Everyone was getting kind of like buzzed and we just ended up in the moon bounce and...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] I didn't see this. Awww.
Em Schulz: Oh, it was... I ended up... I'll send it to you later or we can post it if it's like any... At all important to anybody. But, umm, my phone accidentally was recording and I got like 10 full minutes of a bunch of like 30-somethings, just me and my best friends from, like, when we were little kids, just like having the most unadulterated pure happiness, laughter, joy for like 10 straight minutes just jumping in a moon bounce together.
Christine Schiefer: Stop.
Em Schulz: And I like, there was a moment where I almost started crying in the moon bounce. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't wanna ruin the vibe, but I like got like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I got like just so...
Christine Schiefer: Come on.
Em Schulz: In my feelings about it where I was just like, "I'm so," like, "This is... " like, it felt very like out of a movie but at the end like...
Christine Schiefer: That's so sweet.
Em Schulz: We wore ourselves out so we're just lying in the moon bounce in the middle of the night and just like laughing together and it just sounds like something that a lot of adults don't get to do all the time, so anyway that...
Christine Schiefer: Awww, that's really special.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I had that moment this week, so that's why I drink.
Christine Schiefer: Awww I'm so happy for you. What a delightful time. 'cause you were nervous about going home. I feel like, it sounds like it's been really nice.
Em Schulz: I don't know why I was nervous. I think I was just...
Christine Schiefer: Well, it's probably overwhelming a bit.
Em Schulz: No, I think I was just burnt out from all the socializing and now I have to socialize more. But luckily I've got, you know...
Christine Schiefer: A moon bounce?
Em Schulz: A closet to sit in to record with you and it feels like I'm home. And a moon bounce. And...
Christine Schiefer: Awww, back in the closet. Just like you always wanted to be.
Em Schulz: Just like good old Fredericksburg to remind... Brings me back to my childhood.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just like Virginia days. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah, so, uh, yeah, it's been a good time. So anyway, I'm home for the next few weeks. You will be seeing this tapestry, which is my childhood bedsheet has my backdrop.
Christine Schiefer: It's beautiful.
Em Schulz: Umm, and yeah, that's it. So I'm drinking my Arnie P. I've had Starbucks send to me, it feels like every single day because I just need some sense of normalcy, uh, because, you know, I'm not in LA. Miss the witch, you know, so...
Christine Schiefer: Awww.
Em Schulz: All that good stuff.
Christine Schiefer: What a time Em. What a time.
Em Schulz: Would you like to hear a story?
Christine Schiefer: I would love nothing more.
Em Schulz: Umm, I don't have one today, so I'm just kidding. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well sucks for me, I guess. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's like, not even a funny joke but I still think it's hysterical. Umm, so...
Christine Schiefer: I love that you can be self-aware enough to know something's not funny, but still find it funny. Like you're like...
Em Schulz: I'm...
Christine Schiefer: I think it's funny, even though I know it's not funny. That's really deep.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I love me. And you can't take that from me. And I think I'm funny. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Mm. It's all that matters.
Em Schulz: Also, I'm... I've been hanging out with my stepdad, so I think he's just rubbing off on me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord.
Em Schulz: Umm, everything he says is you know...
Christine Schiefer: Hysterical to him.
Em Schulz: Hysterical to him. Yeah. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Seems like dad, dad vibes. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Dad, yeah. He's also got that, like... A lot of dads have that like weirdly booming voice that they could be whispering downstairs and you can hear every goddamn word.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So if he's telling a joke we all know it, you know? [chuckle] We're all hearing it.
Christine Schiefer: It's... Yeah you're all laughing real hard.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I bet. I bet.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Okay, well anyway, here we go. This is, Umm, a very good story, very spooky story for my dear friend Christine. My one-day enemy, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. No. [laughter] What have I done?
Em Schulz: I don't know... Uh, nothing yet.
Christine Schiefer: I haven't done it yet. Okay.
Em Schulz: I feel like the, the plot will thicken, I think between you and I.
Christine Schiefer: It better thicken at some point, but not too far. Like, I don't want it to be too far 'cause I still need a jo...
Em Schulz: It'll full circle.
Christine Schiefer: I still need a job.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's okay. It'll be like, we, like make one snide comment then everyone like, you know, freaks out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh creates the drama.
Em Schulz: There's, there's now like rumors and lore. Oh, I wanna be part of a lore so bad.
Christine Schiefer: Em wants to be part of the drama. I know... Em always says, "No, I just wanna... " No Em, Em wants to be part of it. And you just admitted it finally.
Em Schulz: Finally? Roll back yesterday, two days ago, last week.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Every day of my life.
Christine Schiefer: No, you always say, "I don't wanna be part of the drama, I just wanna watch it." And I'm like, "No, I don't think so. I think you wanna be part of it."
Em Schulz: No, that's, that's also drama that I wouldn't really be part of because other people are talking about it. I don't know what's going on. So it still feels...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait, that's true. So we're not part of the drama. We... Everyone just thinks we are.
Em Schulz: Because if it's lore or it's rumors...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: And it's alleged...
Christine Schiefer: But then...
Em Schulz: The... There's not actually drama. But people will...
Christine Schiefer: But then wouldn't there be, 'cause now we have to address it or I guess we don't address it, huh.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's interesting. What would we do in that situation?
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, you know, what would we do? Would we lean into it? I think it would be fun to send out cryptic like posts like, you know...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Who you are or like, you know how people do like the, umm, the posts.
Em Schulz: See, you wanna get involved in the drama, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I absolutely do. I never denied it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would absolutely love... Ha-happily I will be involved. Uh, no doubt. But like posting on Instagram, like with the... Like colorful gradient background and just write, like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Some people always disappoint" or something like, so generic.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Listen, I've been planning for this my whole life. I was born for this.
Em Schulz: We should look up some like, really like moody away messages from AIM and just see what fits us best.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's probably just 'Fall Out Boy' lyrics. I'll just keep posting 'em and people will be like, "What does it mean?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: We'll, we'll have to post like a picture, like a selfie or a mirror picture in black and white with like some, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. We could bring emo back. Em, this is gonna change my life for the better.
Em Schulz: Anyway, someone started a rumor about us, umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: Please.
Em Schulz: And, and maybe we play along, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I'll say something really rude this episode and then that'll just kickstart it. You know?
Em Schulz: [chuckle] You should... Let's find out maybe today's the day that the plot thickens.
Christine Schiefer: I'll try. I'll try to come up with something rude.
Em Schulz: And then I'm gonna get all in my head. I'll be like, "Was that for the plot or was that... " [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, that was... No, it wasn't real. Then we'll accidentally get into a huge fight and everyone will be like, "It's a big joke." And we'll be like, "No, we're really sad."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Imagine everyone thinks we're like pranking them and we're just crying and like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, how the turntables, you know?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We knew it would come to this.
Em Schulz: Well, okay. While we're still friends, you know, before the episode is over.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah you better hurry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Here is the story that I think is kind of spooky ooky. This is 'The Demon of Brownsville Road'.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. It sounds spooky.
Em Schulz: And we have, we have a very lovely researcher who gave me a caveat to this. Umm, who, uh, so I guess this is a quote from our researcher Saoirse, "Most of the sources come from a memoir that Bob wrote." Bob is the main character. "In the book, Bob's backstory is a lot to take in." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Uh, love that veiled... Like that's the kind of comment I feel like would start a fight, a war between us.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Christine you are a lot to take in. Yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: It's just you're a lot to take in. You're a lot to take in. Like that will probably start a war for sure. Between two Geminis.
Em Schulz: I know I need to call my therapist, immediately. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Stat. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, "Bob's backstory is a lot to take in. He was a famously self-proclaimed Reagan Republican with a lot of self-importance."
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: He credits himself, hang on now.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: "He credits himself with single-handedly cleaning up a corrupt police department run by evil Democrats. And at one..."
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: "Point in the book, he says, 'To this day, I'm a hero to the African American community.'"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Lord have mercy. What the fuck...
Em Schulz: And it's...
Christine Schiefer: Kind of quote is that?
Em Schulz: [chuckle] And... So by the way, guess what race he is, you can figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: Guess, guess what? What a psychotic thing to say, "I'm a hero to the A... "
Em Schulz: So then Saoirse says, "So yeah, the story of the actual haunting is good, but if you read the book yourself brace for his autobiographical chapters." So...
Christine Schiefer: Em's like, "I never was more thrilled that I don't read books in my life." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Except now, I'm like kind of sad because I'm like, "What is going on here?"
Christine Schiefer: Is this the one thing Em's gonna finally read and it's gonna be because of this stupid racist man, I bet.
Em Schulz: No I'm not, I'm not giving this person my time, but I am curious what makes him think he's a hero to the black community. I...
Christine Schiefer: Well, he cleared up all those filthy Democrats, so I don't know...
Em Schulz: Oh, no. Well thank God, someone alert Reagan.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God. Someone, someone had to do it. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So uh, his name is Bob Cranmer, umm, and he grew up in Brentwood, which is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And as a kid, he would walk by this manor uh, in his area, which you know I love a manor. Well I'm...
Christine Schiefer: Love a manor.
Em Schulz: You know, I, I...
Christine Schiefer: You live in a manor.
Em Schulz: Thank you! I feel so seen Christine.
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome. I mean I don't feel like I need to be thanked 'cause it's true.
Em Schulz: Stop it.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just stating the obvious.
Em Schulz: That's why we're gonna have a celery kiss! With that kind of attitude because... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Oh, so there's two ends of the spectrum, like all out war or celery kisses, and I'd love to stay in the middle...
Em Schulz: Maybe that is the ru... Maybe that is the rumour, Christine, that we give each other a celery kiss.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's the rumor. I mean, I am wearing a shirt you gave me that's gotta be a clue. Right? Grandpa's Cheesebarn.
Em Schulz: So you're wearing my shirt, we're talking about four-way kisses. It just the two of us.
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you. It's just a matter of time before the Internet starts talking.
Em Schulz: And then all of a sudden you flee to Sweden for like three weeks you know so...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah, I just disappear.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No word from me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, no, I love a manor, especially because, as Christine said, my apartment is the Schultz-Forth Manor and I love her very much.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Despite her roaches. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: As a kid he would walk by this manor. It was not mine. And the address was 3406 Brownsville Road.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he really, really dug this manor. He would imagine like the family who got to live there. He... It was just very fantastical to him. Which again, if I ever see a spooky-looking manor, I would do the exact same thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I relate to that a hundred percent. Celine and I would walk around and go, "One day, we'll live in that house and adopt 400 dogs and cats." We still, to this day, every time we see a cool house, like a really old spooky house, we send it to each other and say like, "I finally found the mansion for our million dogs and cats." Like, that's, that was always our plan. So I totally get that vibe, like finding the big spooky manors.
Em Schulz: We, umm, we as in me and Allison, have a fun, umm, habit. It's my favorite habit of at 3:00 AM I mean everyone else does it going on Zillow at 3:00 AM...
Christine Schiefer: Zillowing.
Em Schulz: But only looking at the Victorian manors that are just so out of our price range.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for sure. Yeah. You should do that in, in my area because they're definitely more affordable, but they're like also like way older because they're like from, you know, you see some weird shit in the Zillow pages.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, well...
Christine Schiefer: In like Kentucky.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Some weird shit out there.
Em Schulz: Well, there's a manor at 3406 Brownsville Road apparently. So go check...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: That one out if you want.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Umm, and by the way, fun fact, it is now a national landmark.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So, uh, the manor had three floors. It had a big porch with pillars, had fancy stairs, uh, had servant stairs in the back. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: They always do.
Em Schulz: And it had a big wraparound balcony. I love a wraparound anything. Balcony, porch, pool...
Christine Schiefer: God, how delightful would that be a wrap-around...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: What a dream.
Em Schulz: Anyway, if you're looking to send me any Zillow posts about Victorian manors... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was to say, we'll send you a mansion.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] If they have a wraparound porch, I'm five times more likely to dream about it.
Christine Schiefer: We're in. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Uh, the... So it was like this really extravagant manor to him as a kid. And it was not technically ever seen as haunted. There was another house in the neighborhood that was said to be haunted.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and when he was a little kid, he and his friends actually tried to go to the haunted house and they tried to like get in to the house and the door wouldn't budge. And as they were leaving the door flung open all by itself. So that was...
Christine Schiefer: And somebody said, "Please get off my property." Like, did somebody...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Did somebody live there? That seems like, of course they couldn't get in.
Em Schulz: I have no more information other than that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It sounds like he had a spooky encounter at said spooky home.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I'm just gonna go along with like, there was nobody living there because...
Em Schulz: Let's hope. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Otherwise that would be really, yeah.
Em Schulz: Well so that was, you know, his only really spooky experience as a kid was the house that wasn't the manor he loved.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: Umm, he grows up, he joins the military, he meets his wife, I think her name's Lesa? It's with an E instead of an I, Lessa, Lesa.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting.
Em Schulz: Umm, and he ends up leaving the military and he, he has to go back home. His brother suddenly passed away and him, his wife and his four kids all moved back to Bob's hometown to be close to the family.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So while they're there, there's a family called the McHenry's and they're the family that actually lives in the manor he loved as a little kid.
Christine Schiefer: Huuhh.
Em Schulz: And they're selling it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit, here we go.
Em Schulz: And they're somewhat desperate to find a buyer.
Christine Schiefer: Well, well, well...
Em Schulz: Why could that be?
Christine Schiefer: Nobody knows.
Em Schulz: Uh, so they took Bob's first offer right away. Red flag. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Big red flag.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And they said... They gave the excuse of like, oh, well his wife had to relocate for her job, like ASAP, but it seemed a little off to them, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Didn't really matter. This was like...
Christine Schiefer: Trust your gut.
Em Schulz: The home he fantasized about as a little kid. I mean whatever you...
Christine Schiefer: I mean I, I get it though. Like I feel like you'd regret it if you didn't jump on the chance.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I've always said, "I don't care what it costs, I somehow," but in this world, by the way, and like in this fantastical world where money means nothing, "I don't care how much it costs, but if the Charmed House is ever available...
Christine Schiefer: Oh [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm doing it. I'm doing it." I am going deep into debt for that.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, it's like you often talk about how much things cost. So I don't know in what world you're living, but I see what you're saying. As far as the Charmed House, specifically...
Em Schulz: The Charmed house or the...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, money is no object.
Em Schulz: Or the Michael, or not Michael J. Fox, uh, Marty McFly's Back to the Future house, one of those two...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: If it's free, I'mma goin and both of them are a half an hour from me currently, so it's not, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. So any day now, you can be broke.
Em Schulz: I'm saying.
Christine Schiefer: That would be fun.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: One day if I start complaining about money, just know that maybe I live at either of those locations.
Christine Schiefer: Em, you do complain about money.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, not in a real way, but just in like a, "Everything's expensive," which it is. But, umm...
Em Schulz: Well one day if I say...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not gonna know anything's up until you like, make me pay for your Starbucks or something. And I'm like, "Uh-oh, what's going on?"
Em Schulz: Well, if I ever say I moved and I have $0 to my name.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: You can probably guess where I am.
Christine Schiefer: I think I'll figure it out.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so they took Bob's offer right away, umm, and they were like, "Hey, you wanna go on a tour of your new house? Let's get it cooking, let's do a tour." Umm, and during this tour, Bob's daughter said that she was very uncomfortable in the house and wanted to get out of there. So...
Christine Schiefer: Do we know how old she was?
Em Schulz: I think she was six at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Okay. I was thinking like maybe a teenager, six I'm like, "I trust you six-year-old."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: 16-year-old, no credibility.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: But six-year-old 1000%.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so...
Christine Schiefer: The 16-year-old just wants a pool. Okay. We all know, but the six-year-old, there's something going on.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. The six-year-old wanted out. Of. There.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And Mr. McHenry, who's giving them the tour, said that, "Oh, fun fact. We used to hold a lot of Catholic mass at the house and we even took Eucharist here." Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay why? Weird, whatever. I don't think you're supposed to do that, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Bob said that verbatim, which is crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: He said, "Okay, but whatever."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He's like, "Umm, I don't think you're supposed to do that, but like, okay. I guess."
Christine Schiefer: Umm I don't think so. His voice changed, like too octaves higher and he was like, "What are you even talking about?"
Em Schulz: And he held his drink just like that, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Just, what? Umm.
Christine Schiefer: He held his, I'm sorry, his Stanley...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: His Stanley water cup. Just like this? Yeah, I think so.
Em Schulz: So Bob who was raised Catholic, he knew that this was not common and he especially knew that taking Eucharist outside of a church was like, not a thing.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. Big, no, no.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Not a thing. That's actually the best way to put it. It's not a thing.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's what Bob said at least, "Not a thing." [laughter] But, so they're still on this tour, uh, and their son, they have three sons. One of their sons wanders off, and the McHenry's particularly are really concerned that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh-oh.
Em Schulz: He's alone in that house.
Christine Schiefer: That's not a good sign.
Em Schulz: Then as they're saying, like, "We need to go get him," they hear him scream.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: When they all go find him, he's at the base of the stairs with his eyes shut.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And we don't really know what happened beyond that, except that when Bob and Lesa got there to like get their kid, they felt this really weird energy there. And I guess Lesa's probably onto something. She's like, "Umm, this isn't okay," but, but Bob is like so enamored with this house still.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That he just chalks it up to like, "Oh, we're feeling the history of the home," which is like the most...
Christine Schiefer: He's got blinders on. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Dad thing I've ever heard in my life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. It's, it's basically equivalent to like, "Oh, the house is settling."
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So, and also, I wonder if there's any, you know, so many haunted, haunted houses. They, it seems like the owner of the house or the, the father or the husband seems to get a weird attachment and like, can't leave the home.
Christine Schiefer: You know, you have, I feel like, brought several stories like that to the table and I've definitely seen episodes of TV shows where the mom and kids are like, "Dude, what the fuck? Why are we still here?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "We gotta go." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah. So maybe there's some... Something like that at play.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so he also thought that moving into this house not only was kismet and that it's something he's wanted since he was a little kid, but he's starting to like look for signs as to why this was meant to be. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, for example, it is a weird coincidence, but I guess a previous owner of this manor had a... Had an estate sale at some point.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And Bob's siblings knew how much he liked the house and went to the estate sale and bought him like a baby crib for, for him, like when he was expecting his kids.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so he is like, "It's so weird. The, like, the crib my kids sleep in came from here and now it's gonna go back to the same room it came from." Like...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Like he is, like, he is finding connections as to like why they were meant to come to this house, so.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay.
Em Schulz: Lesa, however said that the house felt like it was, quote, "laughing at us."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: I feel like we were being taken in by it.
Christine Schiefer: Eew. What a spooky way to put that. I have never heard that, but I... That's like a creepy phrasing. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It is laughing at us. That makes it sound so sinister. Not just like it was trying to get rid of us, like it was mocking us.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, like you're already being stared at with horrible intentions. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Argh, God.
Em Schulz: So Bob was super set on moving in. He said that the house made him, this is maybe something that... Something akin to what our researcher was warning us about with his, umm, grandiose opinion of himself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Bob apparently said that the house made him feel very important.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And that it matched his grand ambitions and ideas he had of himself.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that must be where he's plopped his writing desk down and decided to write his memoir about how great he was to the African American community.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I get... I see how this is all coming together full circle.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh Christ. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, there you have that.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: This is maybe the house where he wrote the memoir for all I know.
Christine Schiefer: It must be.
Em Schulz: Umm, so December 12 in '88, this is when they move into the house.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, which is interesting 12/12/88. I wonder if that's got anything.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, numerologists out there. Let us know.
Em Schulz: Anyone? 12/12/88. They move in. The kids are incredibly uncomfy. One of them, uh, is... What? Not one of them, one of the four are always sleeping in the parent's room because they're uncomfortable in their room. Their son Bobby, especially, hated his room and his room is called the blue room because of its blue wallpaper...
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Original. Umm, they refused to s... Bobby refused to sleep in bed ever, and it became the norm for him to sleep on the closet floor in his room.
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: With the light on.
Christine Schiefer: That's... Didn't you do that? Like you...
Em Schulz: I did do that for a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Had your bed in the closet.
Em Schulz: Oh, that is still a thing. Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: Oh what were you talking about?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And like this...
Christine Schiefer: Nevermind.
Em Schulz: This, this closet. I think, I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, this closet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: This is a different closet. I'm in a different room. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I meant the one where you like had your bed, but that was more like a... Right, like, wasn't that more like you could fit your bed in there. So it was like...
Em Schulz: I, I can't fit my bed in there yet. So my...
Christine Schiefer: So you had like a cool hangout area in your room or something? I dunno.
Em Schulz: My room became my room when I was four.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And it was essential... I think it was like, it wasn't the master bedroom or any... Or the, sorry, the primary bedroom anymore, by the way, we're saying primary not master anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. In case anyone's wondering, it's, uh, it's, it's now, umm, elevated terminology to avoid the, the use of that word, yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Umm, but so it wasn't like... It wasn't the primary bedroom, but it still had an attached bath to it. But I was four and I think my mom was afraid of me, like having... I don't know if she was afraid of, of me like falling or slipping in the tub or something. It just never became a bathroom.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It just became this weird random offshoot room in my room.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so there wasn't an actual bathroom in it. Oh, were you guys building the house?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So it was like, meant to be a bathroom, but it just wasn't turned into one.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: So I have a bathroom-sized second room in my room.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, okay.
Em Schulz: Which is so weird, but, umm, for like, when I was a kid, that was basically just like storage for like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for an only child, man, you got like all the space. I love that.
Em Schulz: Made in the shade, yeah. And so anyway, it perfectly fits my bed and like, umm, like a little table and a lamp in there. So then I have like my whole actual room.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: To be like a party pad in high school.
Christine Schiefer: A party zone.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, it was a very cool setup. And so that is why I still sleep in my closet when I'm home.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But, umm, no, I used to sleep in, in like a, like a usual... Like a normal closet also for, for a period of time. But in hindsight, I think that was like a sensory deprivation thing.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh, I get that.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I slept in my closet growing up sometimes.
Em Schulz: It's comfy every now and then.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it can be cozy, like enclosed space.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I really like feeling like I'm enclosed but not suffocated.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Of course.
Em Schulz: Obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously.
Em Schulz: Uh, so Bobby, the son, he slept in the closet and I wonder if that was like essentially a big blanket to him. You know how if you hide under a blanket, you feel like the ghost can't get you?
Christine Schiefer: Aww. Yeah, you're like just hiding away. Like you're enclosed. You're... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which is so wild though, because I feel like most children's ghost stories are, there's someone in my closet.
Christine Schiefer: In, they're scared of the closet.
Em Schulz: So it's like...
Christine Schiefer: It's a great point.
Em Schulz: Are you being drawn to the closet?
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point. I didn't think of that.
Em Schulz: Ugh, well, eventually his parents give into the fact that he sleeps in the closet and literally put like a crib-sized mattress in there for him to sleep on.
Christine Schiefer: Aww, honey. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And one day Bob is in the yard and he finds a metal box buried out there...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And in it was a bunch of Catholic rosaries.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Woof.
Em Schulz: He asked the McHenry's about it and they said to put it back exactly as it was, and they didn't say anything else about it. So that's a... What's, what's more red than a red flag? Umm, [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Crimson? I don't know.
Em Schulz: That's a black flag.
Christine Schiefer: That's a bad news.
Em Schulz: So the closet at the bottom of the stairs, not the one Bobby was sleeping in, a different closet. Umm, the closet at the bottom of the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the one Harry Potter was sleeping in.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like the, like the lobby or foyer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That lobby, it's a... Well, it is a manor, but like the... Your hall... Your main hallway. That staircase had a pull chain light bulb.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And they started noticing that every single day the chain would always tangle itself up no matter what.
Christine Schiefer: Eew.
Em Schulz: Bob said that there were even times he would close the door for 10 minutes after untangling it, come back and the chain would be tangled again.
Christine Schiefer: Eww, what the fuck? That's weird and specific.
Em Schulz: Very specific.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And also every morning the basement lights and radio would turn themselves on by themselves, and the chair down there would move to the center of the room facing the wood stove like someone was getting warm.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] I was like, "What were they doing? Oh, getting warm by the fire." Oh, that's creepy.
Em Schulz: Bob and Lesa also started joking, uh, that they probably had a ghost, but at least he seemed friendly, umm, which I feel like if you're jumping into it too eager, I don't know if that's helpful or not.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I love the... No, and I love that they're like, it's a funny joke, right, guys? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, isn't this silly, everyone?
Christine Schiefer: It's the joke we're laughing, right? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Why won't our friends come over?
Christine Schiefer: So weird, how funny we are.
Em Schulz: The kids, however, did not see it as very friendly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And at night they said they would hear footsteps in the hallways and knocking on their doors, which I hate that, it's like, if something's already freaking you out in your room, the knocking on the door, it feels like a trick of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Making you think that you have to give it permission to come in, but it's already come in.
Christine Schiefer: 100% because it's like, why the politeness? Like why are we even pretending to be polite?
Em Schulz: Unless it's purely to intimidate of like, knock, knock, knock, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I want, like, I'm here. Yeah, I wonder if that's why he slept in the closet, like so he couldn't hear the knocking and the footsteps.
Em Schulz: Oh, imagine if you then hear the knocking on the closet door when you're in there.
Christine Schiefer: See, that's what I... That's where my brain goes. So I would be done, I'd be like, "I'm not sleeping in a closet 'cause if it comes to the door, I'm screwed."
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay. Well, so Bob's mom sends a priest over to bless the home and Bobby, this is where I'm starting to think maybe he's attached to something, because Bobby wouldn't let the priest bless his room.
Christine Schiefer: Is Bobby the kid who slept in the closet?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Shit.
Em Schulz: That freaks me out.
Christine Schiefer: That does, that does.
Em Schulz: So the priest doesn't bless the room. And eventually Bob, umm, after they've lived there for a few years, I think a few years, he... No, it has to be pretty recently. As soon as... I don't know the timeframe, but I think it has to be pretty recent.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, Bob is starting to get into local politics and he's working all day long from like 6:00 in the morning to 10:00 at night. At the same time the house is being renovated and now just because it's being renovated, they're all sleeping in Bobby's room. Umm, but Lesa was struggling with Bob being gone. She was the mom of four.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: I think they were four, like under four or something, like they were all very young. She was a school board president. And also because they were in a very Democratic area, she was having a hard time making friends, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Because Bob is now like a public Republican politician.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Uh, yes. Yes, I imagine that would put some conflict of interest in your friendships.
Em Schulz: And soon the pressure was too much for her that she was temporarily hospitalized with some mental health issues.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And when she came back, the renovations were over, so, umm, only Bobby was left in his room now. So it's like Bobby was now left alone in a room after renovations, which we know always stirs up the ghosts, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like ghosts hate renovations.
Christine Schiefer: They don't like it.
Em Schulz: Umm, and this is when the kids begin seeing shadow figures.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit. That's never good news.
Em Schulz: And Bobby would hear ghosts moaning in his room at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God, eww.
Em Schulz: One night the kids held a sleepover with their friends and they started hearing a pounding on a door...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, that was leading into another room. They opened the door and all of a sudden the next room that they walked into felt like it was as cold as a meat freezer...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Just ice cold. And when...
Christine Schiefer: Eww. Then there's like drawing them in there?
Em Schulz: Oh, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: A knocking, like, "I'm over here." I don't know.
Em Schulz: [gasp] I'd be like, "You can stay there."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Umm, they walk in, it feels like a meat freezer, and then they hear someone from the other side of the room, but they can't see, start running towards them as fast as it can. It just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my fucking god.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They just hear the, the footsteps of bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Something running towards them.
Christine Schiefer: That just took my breath away. I don't enjoy that.
Em Schulz: They all scatter. Of course. And the friends never came back. Why would you?
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: And another time Bobby was sick home alone, and he started hearing loud bagpipes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: When he hears the bagpipes, he is like, "First of all, what in the world is that?"
Christine Schiefer: So. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then into his room comes skipping a faceless child-sized body made out of static or lightning bolts.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Skipping is the scariest part of it all.
Christine Schiefer: It, it is somehow.
Em Schulz: Skipping or hopping. Was what I... Was what the note said.
Christine Schiefer: Hopping's not good either 'cause like, why?
Em Schulz: Boing, boing, boing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Terrible. Eww. You just gave me chills. Yuck.
Em Schulz: Faceless child-sized body made out of static or lightning bolts. It hops over to him. Stands at his bed, and then leaves.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Why?
Em Schulz: Once that figure leaves a shadow figure is standing at the doorway.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: It, it reaches into the room and Bobby tries to hide under his blanket, but before he knew it, the blanket was ripped off of him.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And when he looked around and looked back down at the bed, the blanket was perfectly folded at his feet.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was nice. They were like, "I was just doing a little housekeeping." I mean...
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if you had a... Like a cleaning lady come over and you're sleeping? And then she just goes, "Aha." And then [laughter] just folds it perfectly.
Christine Schiefer: But in complete silence. [laughter] just like, you're like, "What the fuck is happening?"
Em Schulz: And after a faceless child came jumping in probably he's made of lightning bolts.
Christine Schiefer: Right that part can't be explained.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, Umm, but yeah, so he rips the blanket off. Now it's folded at the foot of his bed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Then, a glowing figure comes floating in. It's like a fucking circus going on like it's a parade.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like a circus, but it's like one at a time. Yeah, like a parade.
Em Schulz: Umm, a glowing figure comes floating in but when Bobby screamed, everything went away.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's good. I guess.
Em Schulz: I like how they were like, "Whoa, we didn't know we were scaring you."
Christine Schiefer: "Oh, sorry. Geez. This is our parade and you're being kind of an asshole screaming over it."
Em Schulz: Well, later on, a priest would explain that the small figure was probably a child's ghost that was being controlled by the shadowy figure.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's sad.
Em Schulz: He also said that the glowing figure might have been an angel, but Bobby said, "I didn't feel that was angelic and it was horrible."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I imagine that Bobby would've known if that was a comforting presence.
Em Schulz: It feels a little invalidating for the priest to be...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like, "Oh, it was, it was your protector." It's like uh...
Christine Schiefer: I can see. I do, I can see why that might be like, "Oh, it... You know, that could be comforting if you... If the child believes it but like...
Em Schulz: Well, he didn't.
Christine Schiefer: Clearly he didn't.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: After Bobby saw these beings, more family members began to see that same shadow figure.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And they started describing it as five feet tall, straight black hair, and made of a dark black mist.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: The family then began smelling sulfur in the house.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Some of them could even smell urine and Lesa could smell her old amniotic fluid from when she was having her kids.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Is that not crazy?
Christine Schiefer: What does amniotic f... I mean, I wouldn't even know what that smell is. I guess if you, your water breaks, then you know what the smell is.
Em Schulz: What does it smell like?
Christine Schiefer: Like if you had your... I didn't, my water didn't break, so I'm like, like not out and about. But you know how sometimes people water breaks like at home or...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know what it would smell like, but...
Christine Schiefer: I don't either but I'm saying then you probably would remember the smell 'cause it was such like an instant...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Like such a moment in time. But I mean, I had my water broken at the hospital, so I don't... I was not paying attention to what it smelled like [laughter] Umm...
Em Schulz: I don't even... Like, but how wild, like you would think sulfur is the worst because that's like ingredient number one for a demon.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But then it also smells like urine and then it smells like your own amniotic fluid that hasn't been around for years.
Christine Schiefer: That is freaky. Uh, amniotic... Okay. Here's, uh, according to Romper, amniotic fluid smells like bleach or semen. Oh, maybe it was just semen.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Gross. She did have like three boys in the house didn't she?
Em Schulz: That's also gross.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just saying.
Em Schulz: That's a good point. I do think they were all children though, so I don't know what they...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Nevermind.
Em Schulz: But I mean, that is so funky and like, I feel like that's like symbolic in some way of like reminding you of your children or something.
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Like, it's like the proper maternal instincts...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, that's so gross. I mean, not the fluid, but just the concept of like preying on your maternal instincts.
Em Schulz: Truly like at your core, like your, your womb territory. I don't know. It's very ugh.
Christine Schiefer: "This is my womb territory you're infringing on."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so Bob, interestingly, he said that it smelled like body odor. Umm, and he said... So it's weird that everyone is being...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Handled differently or it's all...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it sort of is a body odor...
Em Schulz: That's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: In some ways.
Em Schulz: Umm, he said, "Similar to body odor, it was only about a three-foot range," which meant though that if you smelled it, that meant it was standing next to you."
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh no.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Mr. Demon, you got stinky armpits I think maybe..."
Christine Schiefer: Like, "Put on some native deodorant."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No parabens or aluminum.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So just, anyway, fun fact, it smelled terrible no matter who you were.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Umm, and Bob's political career is now kind of, you know coming to an end and he's beginning to work at a new job. His daughter is now 16 and she is pregnant and ends up having a son named Collin.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And her grandma watches the baby when she still goes to school. Bob's sons, Bobby and Charlie are now getting into like the metal goth scene.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: Which Bob associates with an interest in satanism.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And he started...
Christine Schiefer: Was not surprised by that.
Em Schulz: I know. And he also started really butting heads with his sons. Umm, I don't know if... He started really butting heads with his sons, and it seems that it started getting physical and at one point the cops were even called and he was arrested...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And not allowed to come home for two months while they investigated.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. That's not good.
Em Schulz: Umm, and because he was a local politician too, it was all over the news.
Christine Schiefer: It's a bad, bad look.
Em Schulz: During this time, this is again where maybe his, umm, I don't know his... Uhh, hmm, I don't know. I don't want to do any... I don't wanna say any wrong things, but the implication that maybe he has some narcissistic tendencies.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, is also shown here, because apparently during this time when he's not allowed to come home, he blames the tension at home on a sinister cause and he thinks that his kids might be being affected by the ghosts there versus like maybe him just having a tumultuous relationship with his kids.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So he's just blaming... He's essentially, what he is saying is like, "Man, if only these ghosts weren't around our..."
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: "We'd have the most harmonious family of all time." It's like mmmm...
Em Schulz: He... I don't know what was going on in their home, but there seems to be very little introspection that he could be at fault in any way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It didn't... It doesn't seem like it's harmonious, A, and it doesn't seem like he's really helping the cause, but.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Again, I don't know what was going on for all I know, maybe he is right...
Christine Schiefer: Allegedly.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: But I would also look into accountability and see if there's a factor there, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, so over time though, the tensions do start to fade between him and his kids. It's now 2003 and Bob notices, umm, that one day, the downstairs closet with the pull chain for the light bulb...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is now starting to tangle itself again.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And it hasn't done that in quite some time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it stopped doing it. Oh no, that's not... That must be that moment where you do a double take and you go, "Not again."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that must be so chilling.
Em Schulz: So it's now tangled itself and as a test, he decides that he's going to tie a rosary to the chain and close the door and then see what happens.
Christine Schiefer: What a fun test.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm like terrified.
Em Schulz: Either, either nothing or something so bad.
Christine Schiefer: Or like the worst thing.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: When he checked again, he saw that the rosary had been intricately taken off of the chain and was hanging on the coat hook.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That was nice of them to keep it intact though. I thought it was gonna be like...
Em Schulz: It was...
Christine Schiefer: All the beads were scattered everywhere.
Em Schulz: It was gentle. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I thought it was gonna like explode or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's what I was picturing.
Em Schulz: So this kind of confirmed his theory all those years ago that there really was something dark in the house and...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: He ended up standing in the closet, kind of like me right now.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And he read the Bible aloud just to like, try to get this thing out of the house.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine coming home from school and you're like, "What is... Is that dad?" Like, and you're like, looking around. Then you like, open the closet, there's a rosary hanging on a coat hook, and he's just standing there like, "Mark chapter 16 verse 32." You're like, "Okay, I'm just gonna close the door. Dad, get back to... "
Em Schulz: Imagine having your friend come over with you and you're like, "Ignore my dad...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, That's...
Em Schulz: You might hear some prayers in the closet."
Christine Schiefer: "Oh God, it's typical.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry."
Em Schulz: So, uh as he's reading the Bible in the closet, he says that he feels incredible dread and that someone immediately appeared next to him...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Or was... He could feel someone standing next to him. Bob and Lesa began noticing activity all over again with electronics malfunctioning. The clocks would always stop at the same time, including their grandfather clock.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what time, did it say?
Em Schulz: That's an interesting question, but I don't know what.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting.
Em Schulz: Umm, one day the upstairs sink turned itself on and flooded the entire house all the way down to the first floor.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And another time the iron turned itself on and fell over on its own, nearly starting a fire. So now this thing is really getting dangerous.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh God. That's when things are like, no joking matter anymore.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's not just a chair by the... You know sitting at the fire.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's...
Em Schulz: It's a fire. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: It's a literal fire. Right.
Em Schulz: Another time the... Uh or their son Bobby was hanging out with his girlfriend in his room and both of them saw one of his CDs levitate into the air and then fly into the wall so hard that it dented the drywall.
Christine Schiefer: And the CD was okay? [laughter] I was like, it didn't shatter?
Em Schulz: I'm thinking the CD shattered...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Since it got frisbeed in to the wall.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "I'm more impressed by that than anything else." But, umm, wow, wow that's...
Em Schulz: I don't know, I feel like CDs used to be pretty sturdy...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: It might... Maybe you just have to like, breathe on it and, and wipe it every time you wanna play, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's true. That's every time it flies into the drywall. Just give it a little shirt rub, you know [laughter] it'll be fine.
Em Schulz: Uh, Bob finally went to a local convent and was told that this sounded like a demonic presence. Duh.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, what?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And Bob was referred to a father, Ed Morin? Moran. M-O-R-A-N. Moran? Moran.
Christine Schiefer: Either one, I think.
Em Schulz: Well, father Ed, he blesses the house, but the next day, every picture on the wall is now crooked.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, eww.
Em Schulz: The furniture was moved around, doors would lock themselves without the key. And the family had scratches all over them. And Bobby and Lesa even had puncture wounds in their body. Like something had bit them.
Christine Schiefer: Puncture... Oh my God, that's bad.
Em Schulz: One was in Bobby's stomach. And then another set of puncture wounds was in, umm, Lesa's breast.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Eww.
Em Schulz: The only person who is seemingly unfazed through all this is their other son, David. Umm, but...
Christine Schiefer: David's like, "What the fuck are you guys talking about?"
Em Schulz: David's like, "Whatever I am doing to keep them away, I gotta, I gotta figure out what that is and keep it up." Umm, but yeah, he seemed somehow unfazed. I wonder if like... I wonder why, like, do you think the ghosts were like, "You're not important," or "You don't threaten us," or "You're harder to crack like, than the rest?"
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, well, maybe it's the opposite. Like he just has like a block that... Like a wall up for some reason.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah maybe.
Christine Schiefer: That's wild.
Em Schulz: Uh, Bob calls Father Ed again. Father Ed brings over Father Mike and around...
Christine Schiefer: They always do.
Em Schulz: It's like prison Mike, but this is Father Mike.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Close enough. They both wear a durag inappropriately and say...
Christine Schiefer: And they talk to the Dementors, you know.
Em Schulz: They say, da Belle of da ball.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, around this time, their daughter Jessica moves back into the house with her husband and son. Umm, and the first night back, her son Collin sees a figure standing over him...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And then walk into a wall.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent start, good start.
Em Schulz: When this creature walks into a wall, the wall was connected to a crawlspace. So Bob hears about this...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: And he moves into their room, and at night he would start praying and he would hear pounding by the crawlspace.
Christine Schiefer: That's horrible. The crawlspace. I mean, I know it's cliche, but a crawlspace, man. I'm not about it. Have I shown you? I haven't. I forgot. We have really big crawlspaces in this house.
Em Schulz: Eugh. So you don't have to... How big are they? Do you have to crawl?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah...
Em Schulz: You have to crawl.
Christine Schiefer: You have to crawl in. Umm, but they go really far back.
Em Schulz: That's the fucking worst. Like what was... What... I think I'm still confused about the advent of crawlspaces because I understand that it's in theory, storage. But...
Christine Schiefer: No, I think the advent, or I think the initial purpose was to be able to access like, the eaves of the roof or like access certain parts...
Em Schulz: Ohh.
Christine Schiefer: Of the house in case you needed to do like say maintenance or uh, repairs.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I, I'm pre... I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that was the original, 'cause they're just meant to like, squeeze in to, to access points of the house that are hard to reach. So...
Em Schulz: That's wild. 'cause the crawlspaces I've ever seen are all cemented up where it's just like a... It essentially looks like an outdoor basement or something.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, an outdoor basement.
Em Schulz: Like it looks like an outdoor storage room. Like, it's like a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I think, I mean, I think they've probably been turned into that because nowadays we don't necessarily need those access points. 'cause we can just hire someone to climb up on a ladder and do it from outside or whatever.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Or we can hire someone. I'm not sure. I might be totally off base, but that's, I feel like what I...
Em Schulz: No, that, that totally makes sense because my question was like, "Why do they have to be so goddamn deep? Like what do you have to get over there?"
Christine Schiefer: I think it was to access just all around like the eaves of the roof and places that you wouldn't normally be able to reach.
Em Schulz: Makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: I'm pretty sure.
Em Schulz: Well, so anyway, the crawlspace is now knocking back. Whenever he prays in there.
Christine Schiefer: "I want nothing to do with it."
Em Schulz: And because of this, he would actually open up the crawl space, stick his head in there and pray even louder to piss it off.
Christine Schiefer: Pffft.
Em Schulz: And then he's wondering like why things are almost catching on fire.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously. Like, and also don't, like, don't stick your head in. If you're gonna do that, just like crawl on in, tell us what's in there. Like come on, commit.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Have you seen a horror movie? Just don't. Why would you open the door?
Christine Schiefer: Just commit and crawl all the way in if you're gonna be so ballsy about it.
Em Schulz: The real plot twist would be that their unfazed, unbothered son was the one hiding out in the crawl space and scaring everybody.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, now we're talking a thriller. A little true crime.
Em Schulz: That'd be fun.
Christine Schiefer: He's causing all the chaos. Yeah.
Em Schulz: As far as we know. That's not true. But that would be a really good ending to this.
Christine Schiefer: I like it.
Em Schulz: Umm, so yeah, so their grandson Collin is now saying things are walking around, going into the crawl space. Umm, and Jessica, their daughter starts having sleep paralysis.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: And she would see a figure, with a grotesque face...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: At the end of her bed smiling.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Always a smile.
Christine Schiefer: It's always a smile.
Em Schulz: She tells her parents that she used to actually always have sleep paralysis when she lived in this house as a kid, but it stopped when she moved out and now it's only come back when she's back in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I See. So it's a, it's a contextualized by where she is. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Bob goes to his friend, casually, the mayor of Pittsburgh, Umm.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Of course it's his friend. Or is it, or does he just say it's his friend in the book and we're supposed to believe him? Just a thought. I'm just asking. I'm just asking.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: He's got Father Ed, Father Mike, Mayor of Pittsburgh. That's all you need.
Christine Schiefer: Was the mayor African American, was... Or not. Like where did he stand? I've just like, I feel like we're missing slight amount of context, but what do I know?
Em Schulz: It's the perfect amount where like you could write a thriller about this and you'd be... It'd be inspired by a true story, but not based on one.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like I've never heard of him. I don't know. [giggle]
Em Schulz: Uh, so he calls up the mayor of Pittsburgh. Of course, Sure.
Christine Schiefer: You do that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Who contacts the diocese uh, Bishop, who refers Bob to not Father Ed or Father Mike, but Father Ron. Umm, Father Ron never goes in the home. He just consults with a, a Catholic mystic away from the home and then calls in to say what the mystic told him.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Which like, it sounds like Father Ron is not needed. It sounds like the mystic is doing all the work, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like the Father Ron is just like middleman. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So the mystic describes the house in full detail, including the blue room without ever having seen this house. And then he says, or this mystic says that the house has a, quote, "focused evil energy". The mystic says that...
Christine Schiefer: Was that you or a ghost?
Em Schulz: That was, that was me. That was me.
Christine Schiefer: My, my skin like went... Like my skin went cold. Like, wow. Okay.
Em Schulz: Sorry. No, I knocked my mic. I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Because like, I saw it move. I've been watching a lot of paranormal caught on camera, and it's like every time now we're on video and something happens, I'm just like, "Oh, did we capture it for the show?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: For, for Paranormal, for Discovery Channel?" Umm, okay. That was you. That was you.
Em Schulz: I feel bad, but it, it was just my mic. I just bumped into it.
Christine Schiefer: It's probably for the best.
Em Schulz: So Father Ron talks to this mystic, and the mystic is able to describe Bob's house in full detail, including the blue room without ever having seen it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he says that the house has a, quote, "focused evil energy" inside, which I feel like is no different than Father Ed or whoever was saying there was a demon there. It's like, "Yeah, we've done this. So, what's next?"
Christine Schiefer: "Focused evil. We get it." Yep.
Em Schulz: Father Ron tells the family to sprinkle salt in every corner of the house. And also...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I could have told them that.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah also like...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: I don't know enough about like, you know, I know salt in theory like protects you from evil. Like, I can't imagine with things almost catching on fire and having sleep paralysis and things walking through walls. I can't imagine salt is gonna be your only cure all to this.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I would imagine not. I, I was listening to a podcast yesterday where they were saying, umm, somebody had a Brazilian, umm, uh, mystic had... Or I believe a priest, I don't remember their title, but had suggested putting ammonia in all the corners of the house. And I'm like, "Sounds like they're already smelling ammonia. So I don't know...
Em Schulz: Right.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: If that's gonna fix it, but...
Em Schulz: It's like, just pee in the corner.
Christine Schiefer: Just pee in the corner."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so Father Ron tells 'em to sprinkle salts everywhere or in every corner. And also to wear gold crosses, but Bobby's keeps coming off and appearing in odd places.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So it's coming off of own person and disappearing.
Christine Schiefer: That's not good.
Em Schulz: And reappearing elsewhere.
Christine Schiefer: If it's on your body and disappears...
Em Schulz: So its touching you...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's bad. That's like way, what do you call it? Uh, invasion of personal space. Like beyond.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Which like lets you... If it can, without you even being aware, take something off of you. Like it could hurt you for sure. Like it could push you, couldn't it? Like...
Christine Schiefer: And it... The, the fact that you wouldn't notice that it's taking it off of you is also creepy. 'cause it's like, "What can I do to you that you don't even realize is happening?"
Em Schulz: It also gives us more insight into our ongoing theory about, umm, items being... Items disappearing and reappearing. Like, it, it shows you how close the limits go of like, "Oh, you could have your own wallet in your pocket. And that's, it's still not safe there."
Christine Schiefer: You could be holding it against your body and it could vanish.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: 'Cause like, do you think they're being like kind of dazed on purpose so they don't even notice?
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: Or do you think they would even... Do you think they would feel it if they were paying attention or they...
Christine Schiefer: Great point. Is there like a charm that's briefly put over you where you don't even...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Notice? Or does it just disappear and it like... Like is it just like pop vanish?
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, or also like, do you think if you're charmed into some sort of haze, like maybe you take it off...
Christine Schiefer: Took it off.
Em Schulz: And aren't even aware that you, you did it and people are like...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: "I just watched you do that."
Christine Schiefer: That's worse.
Em Schulz: Yeah. 'cause then you can just be hypnotized and there's like a... That's an extra level of...
Christine Schiefer: That's a whole different thing. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Lack of control. Like, you can just walk into traffic at that point, you know?
Christine Schiefer: No, that's why I put a leash on everybody I know. Including you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm putting a harness on you. Toddler harness.
Em Schulz: That's fine. Uh, umm, so Bobby's keeps coming off and reappearing in odd places, and after all these years, they finally move Bobby to a new bedroom. It only took that, finally. Umm, but on his pillow. He finds his own crucifix covered in teeth marks.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Also blood splatters begin showing up on the walls and stairs. The dog is barking at empty rooms...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And the smells of urine and amniotic fluid come back.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] What the fuck? There is something so primal and scary about the smells of urine and amniotic fluid. Like that really is getting to me now because it's like, that is such a primal, like, cycle of life. Like symbolic thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah and ritualistic.
Christine Schiefer: And ritualistic and also very, very specific, like very distinct. Like, Oh, it.. Oh, eugh. It creeps me out, man. 'cause sulphur, you could be like, "Oh, that's... That could be the smell of like, you know, the water has a little sulphur in it," or like, that's a naturally occurring smell. Umm, and with amniotic fluid, it's like, "Well that's the amniotic fluid!" Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "What else could it be?" I don't know. Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Father Ron asks Bob, if there is anything associated with negative energy in the house that could be drawing the stuff in. Bob is like, "I don't know what you're talking about...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I can't think of anything." Oh wait. Except I do have a weird amount of war memorabilia from World War I and World War 2 and some of that collection happens to be, wink, German memorabilia.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. Oh shit.
Em Schulz: He gave apparently most of his collection away by this time, but he did find oh, oh, that there was still one Nazi medal still in his drawer. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is he doing with that? In his drawer?
Em Schulz: Father Ron looks at Bob and goes like, "Girl. Like, come on."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He was like, "Come on."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, Father Ron tells him to seal it away in a box with a cross on top of it to contain the energy. Uh, and then later says that he has more information from the mystic. And apparently the mystic has now said, "I have a new revelation of your house. Apparently a doctor used to live here in the '20s and '30s and he used to give, at the time, illegal abortions to people."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] The amniotic fluid.
Em Schulz: Bingo.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: Interestingly, the doctor used to actually live down the street in the house that the kids used to swear were haunted.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Plot twist!
Em Schulz: So he has ever since, as a child, when that door flung open with his friends, he has been attached to this spirit. Probably.
Christine Schiefer: You have just shaken me to my core. This is crazy.
Em Schulz: So it... It has always been with him. Which is so weird because that also makes me wonder, like, I don't know timeline-wise, which house he saw first, but it'd be interesting if he went to that haunted house was affected by the spirit there. And then every time he walked past that manor, he always had a drawing to it for some reason.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And it always stayed with him until he became an adult and moved in. Interestingly...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The doctor used to live down the s... Oh, Interestingly, he used, used to live in the house and the thought is that he had an official practice in the haunted house, but then secretly rented a room in this manor for the discreet abortions.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Shut up.
Em Schulz: The mystic described them seeing a door of sorrows...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: That women came through for the procedures and that this house was on the back of the house.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Bob confirmed that a few years before, something they hadn't told anybody, during renovations...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: They actually did find a back door sealed between two walls.
Christine Schiefer: Huuhh. He's like, "Oh, I forgot to mention that secret door that was hidden between two walls."
Em Schulz: Yeah. You know I always...
Christine Schiefer: My mistake.
Em Schulz: "I always forget to talk about that door and my Nazi medals." Oh man.
Christine Schiefer: "Oh. And you know how I love to talk about my Nazi medals? How can I forget?"
Em Schulz: "But not as much as I love being a hero for the black community."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah that's right. That's right. Oh my God. Em what a fucking guy. This is messy.
Em Schulz: Umm, fun fact, also during the renovations a while back, Bob's uh, I guess the builders or whoever they found, under Bob's kitchen, a small four by six empty room.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Like was it... Was it hidden?
Em Schulz: And the only... It was hidden. They didn't know about it.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So I guess maybe it was sealed off? The only thing that was in there was a single wooden plank with a man's name written on it.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Which we don't know who it is. Maybe it's one of the builders. Maybe it's the owner. Maybe it's the doctor. I don't know. Umm, Father Ron said that the doctor was careless during the procedures and would often perform these abortions drunk and would harm his patients, and many died in the home. On top of this, Bob also found out that in the 1700s, a mother and her three kids were murdered and buried on the property under the oak tree outside.
Christine Schiefer: What? Do we know why?
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: This was not...
Em Schulz: And on top of...
Christine Schiefer: This was not by the doctor, right? This was a different time period.
Em Schulz: Different time period.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: On top of that, he also discovered that there was a rumor that the house had actually had a curse on it from one of the original builders. So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, at this point, yeah. I believe it [laughter] like something bad is happening.
Em Schulz: Well, father Ron said that all the darkness on the property probably opened a portal.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So one day he has four priests and ministers come over to go to the four corners of the house and pray. And things were very quiet after that until the priests and ministers left, and then the smell of sulphur comes right back and foamy liquid starts showing up on all the floors.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no, that's spooky.
Em Schulz: Then Collin said he saw a monster in the blue room. So Jessica's like, "I hear you. We're out." And just fucking moves.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I am done. Done.
Em Schulz: Uh, Bob also thought about moving out many times, but he didn't want to give in and let the entities win. So he was too proud, essentially.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, maybe that is why, umm, we see that with, with men kind of being more attached. Maybe it's just more like, "No, I don't wanna leave 'cause I don't wanna... "
Em Schulz: Or like the...
Christine Schiefer: "Get kicked out of my own house."
Em Schulz: The role of protector and like... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like, "I'll, I'll win this fight." You know? Maybe that's more what it is.
Em Schulz: Or else you're not a man or whatever it could mean.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like it might just be that inherent like, "I'll protect us," type feeling.
Em Schulz: Well, he also said he wouldn't feel right giving the house to another family. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that's fair.
Em Schulz: And Father Ron finally suggests calling an exorcist, which is like so awkward because Bob didn't know the difference between blessing, like blessing a house and exorcisms and stuff, and thought the entire time, all these years, that this is what the priests had been doing all...
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. So now he is like, "Wait a minute, you are not an exorcist?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. He, they... Father Ron was like, "I think it's time to call an exorcist." And he was like, "Wait, what? Who are you? What have you been doing?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "What? Where'd you come from?"
Em Schulz: And so I would be... I would feel... I don't know what I would feel, but I'd be like, "What the fuck? Like, this whole time I was not getting the help I thought I was getting." Umm, so they have a paranormal team come in first to document what's going on in order to like make a file for an exorcist or make a case for the exorcist.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: One member is scratched so hard that their face starts bleeding.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: They also get temperature changes and equipment malfunctioning. And they also, I don't know what equipment they use for this, but they found a secret room behind the closet at the bottom of the stairs where the tangled chain always was.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: They found a room behind that closet. They had to cut through the wall to get to it. And all that was in the room was an amber stone, a bird skeleton...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Three playing cards...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And a piece of paper. And they also found old Legos that the boys lost years ago, and there's no way the boys could have put them there.
Christine Schiefer: Eww. It was their Legos. What did the paper say? Anything?
Em Schulz: On the paper there were two drawings. One was of the yard and another was of two men smoking.
Christine Schiefer: Huh?
Em Schulz: And I guess these were like kind of haphazard drawings of two men smoking.
Christine Schiefer: And are they like... Do we think like by kids or like by grownups? The drawings, do we know?
Em Schulz: Just said kind of like really simple drawings.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: The yard, two men smoking and one of the men had a pig head. And...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: A snake, a snake around his body. And he's laughing at the other man.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: After the paranormal team leaves, the chief exorcist of New York City is called in, umm, I'm sorry, New York State. Even better. And surprisingly, the exorcism happens with no scares, full success. And in February twenty f... On February 24th, in 2006, the Cranmers and priests do one final mass in the basement where they heard tapping and they saw a faded shadow figure. And the priest said that this thing had to leave and watched it melt into the floor...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And never returned. And in 2015, the son, David, the one who was never affected by the hauntings, he somehow suddenly dies. Bob and Lesa...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] How, how old?
Em Schulz: Well, it was the late '80s when they moved in and he was already around, like... He was like one to four. So let's say 85, maybe 30.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, he dies suddenly, Bob and Lisa get divorced. Umm, and during this time, Bob writes a memoir of The Demon of Brownsville Road about their time in the house. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Some people do have doubts about the whole story. Umm, for example, the doc... There actually was a doctor who they figured out lived and rented in both of those houses, but there's no evidence he ever did any illegal procedures. But also why would there be?
Christine Schiefer: Of course the evidence would not. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, Bob also allegedly spoke to previous tenants of the house that lived there before he did. And one of the women, I guess, wasn't, umm, a credible source because she was giving stories about her being haunted there. And then her own kids later were like, "None of that's true."
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: She said like, uh, the woman said that like, "Oh, my dog used to follow something through the halls." And the kids were like, "She never had a dog." So...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh girl.
Em Schulz: So either the woman was lying or maybe Bob like made the story up for like himself.
Christine Schiefer: Or I mean, maybe she was... I don't know. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah or maybe something else. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, Bob also, it seems according to his memoir, blamed every problem with his family on the entities and refused to accept that maybe there were more common issues. Umm, but a grave was found on the property at the base of the oak tree, just like the mystic said. And there are prominent members of the Catholic church who were in support of Bob's account. Bob still lives here and converted the house into a, an air, not an Airbnb, just BMB in 2019. But he does not welcome investigations in fear of stirring up...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Former activity.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I mean, that's fair. I can respect that.
Em Schulz: And that's The Demon of Brownsville.
Christine Schiefer: That is a doozy.
Em Schulz: Isn't it?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I, yeah. I feel like we've covered a lot of very specific, very niche paranormal symptoms? Side effects?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Of the paranormal, amniotic fluid as a repeated symbol through out this story is something I had never heard of.
Em Schulz: I've never heard of that.
Christine Schiefer: And when you said the abortion thing...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's like boom, like, "Holy crap."
Em Schulz: Super, super freaky.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh. That like, took my breath away. That was startling.
Em Schulz: And I say it every time we do like a, like a demon or a good haunting or possession story, but like, they're so few and far between because after like 300, almost 50 episodes, there's just only so many out there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And that was just such a really, really good one. So anyway, round of applause to our researcher and, umm, it was, it was...
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: I would've not been able to find that topic without them. So...
Christine Schiefer: That was a, that was a really good one. Yeah. I feel like, umm, Em has had for a long time kind of a concern about running out of stories just because, you know I mean, everything is finite, umm, and...
Em Schulz: Yeah, there's only so many demon stories out there with good, solid information. So.
Christine Schiefer: And while as unfortunately, I wish I had that concern because it would be great if crime just suddenly stopped and I ran out of stories. Umm, unfortunately that won't happen. But I guess on that same... In that same vein, like there will continue to be stories like The Watcher house or like, Dear David...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Or, you know, so, or UFO stuff. So you might still continue to get like, uh, quite a few more new...
Em Schulz: I mean every...
Christine Schiefer: Breaking stories.
Em Schulz: Everything with the government right now and the hearings. And, so I mean there's always...
Christine Schiefer: Conspiracy theories.
Em Schulz: Stuff that just... For every, one really good congressional hearing about UAPs and UFOs, you get about 300 new cases daily on like something you could cover.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So proportionally it is just not fair, but, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no no. It's a rough go, but, umm... But you know, I will say on that note, would this be helpful to you Em, if we plug, umm, our website where you can send in submissions?
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause maybe there's a list we can create that'll give you a better... Like a more comforting.
Em Schulz: I think we do have a, we have a, in our own private Google Docs, I think we have a list of requests that come in every now and then, but I don't think we have, like, I wish on our website if there was a way to create like some... Have a form submission and it just immediately falls into a Google Doc.
Christine Schiefer: I think it does.
Em Schulz: Is there a way?
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Maybe at emails, you might be right. Wait, yeah. We should set that up. Megan? Megan help.
Em Schulz: Poor Megan.
Christine Schiefer: Megan!
Em Schulz: We have something. We have, we do have a list somewhere of requests, issues...
Christine Schiefer: No, you're right, I think the topic suggestion is an email. You're right. It's like an email the way that the actual listener story emails come in. So maybe there's a way, I mean, I know there's a way that we could just have a form to fill out that would go into an Excel spreadsheet or a... Something like that. I feel like that might be more helpful so we can sort them.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And uh, it wouldn't even necessarily need to be like your name, your whatever. So, 'cause presumably we'd get lots of repeats and then as long as it's like spelled correctly, we could group them together. Umm.
Em Schulz: We'll figure it out. We'll shop it, we'll shop it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like that might be a helpful idea to just get, uh one paranormal, one true crime like suggestion box that goes straight to a, to a document.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so let me see Em, I've got a doozy for you today as usual. This is a story of Kelly Cochran and this is one of those stories where I really didn't see it coming. Like I...
Em Schulz: Didn't see like the ending? Or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah it's like plot twist galore.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Which you know...
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We... You know we love that on this show.
Em Schulz: I love a plot twist.
Christine Schiefer: So, let's get into it. Christopher Reagan was born and raised in Detroit, Michigan and in his early 20s he joined the Air Force. By the time he was in his 50s, he was divorced with two children and he wound up stationed at K. I. Sawyer Air Force Base in Marquette, Michigan. And that is where he met the lovely, Terri O'Donnell. So Terri was a school teacher from Iron River, Michigan, which was like a small town, uh, roughly two hours from Marquette. And Terri described Chris as someone who made people feel special. Uh, she did an interview on Snapped, umm, where she told interviewers that Chris would look at you and you'd think that you were the only person in the room.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: He put you... I know, I know that... I feel like Em does that though.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Like, not to like bring this man's like sort of obituary to [laughter] to compliment you but I feel like that is something you do. Like you really do... You're good at making people feel like they're, umm, you know, the, the most important person in the room, umm, which I think is a great skill, like a great social skill.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay. I didn't know it was compliment Em day, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, It's true. It's not. And that's why this is even more, uh... You know, if it were compliment Em day, I could just be...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: You would say? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'd say Em is really handsome. No. Uh, but, but yeah, I really do feel that way about you.
Em Schulz: [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so he would put you up on a pedestal when you were around him. You'd feel like, like he deeply cared about you and it was just a lot of one-on-one attention. Umm, and Terri and Chris were friends for two years until they decided to enter a romantic relationship.
Em Schulz: Heyo, celery kisses.
Christine Schiefer: Celery kisses. Uh, and the only problem was that Chris had moved to Traverse City Mich... Michigan, which was now six hours away. So eventually Chris, who was now 53 years old, he was retired from the military, he was like, "Fuck it, I am moving up to Iron River to be with my gal." So, he moved to be with Terri. Iron River was scenic and green and Chris shared Terri's love for the outdoors. They immediately got on great, umm, spending a lot of time outside just getting to know each other better now that they were no longer long distance.
Christine Schiefer: And in the meantime, he was working to, uh, repair his strained and distant relationship with both of his adult sons. So he frequently texted and called them and he was really hopeful that with Terri, they could kind of rebuild a family unit with his two sons involved as well. In Iron River, Chris worked in a factory. He manufactured parts for naval vessels and that is where he met 33-year-old Kelly Cochran, who was also new to town. Chris and Kelly were both newcomers so they bonded at work and Kelly had just moved to Iron River with her husband, Jason Cochran. So let's get to Kelly and Jason real quick. They were childhood friends. They grew up as next door neighbors in Indiana, they dated through high school, you know, high school sweethearts, got married after graduation and then as you know, as the story goes, uh, the America Dream started their own swimming pool maintenance business together.
Em Schulz: Hey, okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, their friends thought of them as opposites but opposites who fit together really well. So Kelly was very talkative whereas Jason was quiet until, you know, someone really engaged with him but they seemed really content. Their friends felt like they were truly in love. Uh, but later Kelly would tell interviewers a different story. She said, I was trying to do what I thought was the right thing. You go to school, you go to college, you get married. I got bored from getting married. It was okay at the start but all I did was work and I can see how that could be hard. You enter a relationship as a child, essentially...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then by the time you're married and a grownup, you're like, "Man, I just kinda did that 'cause I thought I was supposed to."
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Which is a little bit sad. Tragically after a decade of intense physical labor in their business, Jason suffered a pretty bad back injury. Uh, meaning he couldn't do any heavy lifting so his job with like pool maintenance was just...
Em Schulz: Over.
Christine Schiefer: Over. Friends say it was clear he was in a lot of pain and it only got worse. Uh, so with Jason now disabled, Kelly picked up both of their duties. She handled all of the finances, the shopping, cooking chores and work to support them. So she was really...
Em Schulz: I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Struggling.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She's fully like a caregiver now too.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, she's a caregiver on top of all the other stuff. So they were struggling to stay afloat and in February, 2014, they decided to move to Iron River to improve their options. And one of the reasons they moved to Iron River is that they wanted a medical marijuana card for Jason because of his extreme chronic pain.
Em Schulz: That was my... My, my aunt suffers from incredible, I mean, she's very chronically ill. Back pain is just one of her things going on and it's very severe. Umm, and the whole reason they moved where they did is just to have a medical marijuana licence.
Christine Schiefer: It's a real thing. I mean, in Kentucky...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, it's such a game changer. Such a game changer.
Christine Schiefer: Medical marijuana was passed this year but we won't get it till 2025 in Kentucky. But like people in Kentucky who are... You know, it's horrible because there's like an opio... Opiate crisis. Uh, for pain, like, especially because it always often starts with pain management.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, "Yeah, okay," but then you won't let us legalize weed and give people an option for a safer...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Healthier, milder way to treat pain. I mean, it's just so backwards, but whatever. Umm, so they, they moved to Michigan to get a medical marijuana card, uh, for his chronic pain. And Kelly also needed a job that would pay better. So in Iron City, she took multiple jobs of... One of which was at the factory with Christopher Reagan. So like Kelly, Chris was talkative and outgoing, and they really hit it off. Chris's girlfriend Terri immediately started struggling with their friendship. Umm, she said that while planning a family trip to Europe, Chris said he was gonna meet up with another woman and like kind of broaden his options while she was in Europe and...
Em Schulz: Oh, oh. Like very directly said, I'm gonna...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Pursue someone?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And Terri said, "Oh, why?" And he's like, "'cause you're going to Europe." And she's like, "I'm only going for like a few weeks." And he said, "Well, I don't wanna be lonely or bored while you're gone."
Em Schulz: Ooh. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Terri was like, "Mm, don't love that." And ended their two-year relationship in April of 2014.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right, right, right. Okay girl.
Christine Schiefer: And you know, Chris moved out, but she came back from her trip, because it was only a couple weeks. It wasn't like she was leaving for the year. Umm, and she came back and they actually remained friends and they still hung out, but like the romance aspect of it was just out the window.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So meanwhile, Chris was applying to new jobs around the country. Uh, he was thinking he wanted to move and start a fresh, uh, career, start a fresh life. So on October 10th, of 2014, he called Terri and told her about a job offer he had received in Asheville, North Carolina. And he was very excited about living in the Blue Ridge Mountains. He was a very outdoorsy guy, as I said. And so there was a lot for him there. Umm, and more importantly, he'd be closer to one of his sons, Chris Reagan Jr who was excited to spend more time with his dad because they'd been kind of working on repairing their relationship. And so they were gonna kind of come back together and hopefully forge a new father-son bond, which I think is really sweet.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So on the 14th, he texted Terri that he was taking the next day off, the 15th, for an appointment. Uh, he was getting drug screening done for his new job, and that text came in at 6:00 AM. So the next day Terri didn't hear from him after the appointment, and her friends were like, "Oh, don't worry. Umm, you know, you'll hear from him eventually," but Terri immediately knew something wasn't right, because even though they had broken up, they were very close friends and it was very unusual for him not to respond to her texts...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: This is just not his normal behavior.
Christine Schiefer: And so she did consider, "Okay, well now that he's dating all these women," maybe he had someone with him and didn't want to be texting Terri while the other woman was with him. So she thought, "Okay, fine, I'll give him some time and distance." But 10 days went by and despite...
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: Repeated texts, Terri did not hear back from Chris. So she filed a missing persons report. At first, investigators weren't immediately alarmed, because they heard about the Asheville job, and they thought, "Oh, well, maybe he just left early for Asheville and didn't tell anyone. Maybe he just wanted to get outta here." But when they contacted his new workplace, his supervisors had not heard from him. And were like, "When is he coming? Where is he?" Uh.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: He's supposed to be starting his job soon. Umm, and the next thought was, "Well, maybe he went for a hike in Iron River and got injured, and if he's been gone 10 days, he's probably either in bad shape or dead out in the wilderness."
Em Schulz: And I mean, he had a... He had the really bad back issues, right? This is the same guy?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. He had very bad... Yes. He had... Oh, wait no, that was the, that was the other guy. Sorry. That was, umm, I know it's very confusing. I'm sorry. But, uh, Kelly Cochran, who is Chris's coworker umm, at the factory, her husband has really bad... They're the ones who own the pool business...
Em Schulz: Gotcha, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he has really bad, uh, back issues. But Chris, and... I forgot to warn you about the gargoyles, but... [laughter] You don't have them here. Oh, no, you're at your mom's.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. I'm just trying to do mental gymnastics over here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So then Chris is with Terri.
Em Schulz: Jason and... Jason and Kelly, Kelly works with Chris, Chris is with Terri, well, was with Terri, and now they're broken up.
Christine Schiefer: Jason and Kelly. Chris. Yes, exactly. Chris, Terri. And now they're just friends.
Em Schulz: Sorry, I know everyone else is probably like, we already did this Em but I just...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, no, no...
Em Schulz: Need to double check.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's good to... No, it's good to clarify. I feel like I listen to podcasts sometimes and I'm like, "She did what?" And then I rewind and I'm like, "Oh, wait, no, they said Kelly, not... " It, it can be hard.
Em Schulz: Yeah yeah yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So don't worry. I think you're probably helping, helping people understand. So now they're thinking, "Oh, well maybe he's injured. Maybe he's out there somewhere." Umm, and it was, you know, an area that was not uncommon for hikers to get lost or injured and need help. So the Michigan State Police got involved in the search. They brought canine units into the woods, but didn't turn anything up. And unfortunately an early winter came that year. So the search got interrupted by snow and that also covered tracks and made any trails Chris potentially left nearly impossible to follow.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So they're kind of stranded now. Meanwhile, investigators visited Chris's apartment with Terri, his kinda girlfriend... His close friend, former girlfriend.
Em Schulz: His, his friend/ex.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Terri told them that Chris was an extremely organized person. She had lived with him long enough to know that like he liked to keep a clean space, but his apartment when they entered was a disaster. Every cabinet was open, items and papers were tossed around. The floor was cluttered, there was just shit everywhere. And Terri was like, "No, no, no, no, no." Like, "This is not how he would leave his apartment," especially if he were moving out." And...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It also sounds like someone ransacked the house. It sounds like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, and so that's what she thought. She thought somebody had been... Had robbed him. She's like, "There's no way, this is something he did." Like he must have been robbed. Exactly. Then they found Chris's car parked five miles out of Iron River at a park and ride lot.
Christine Schiefer: When they looked inside the vehicle, they noticed a post-it note in the passenger seat and in... On this postage note was a set of directions.
Em Schulz: Bye. We are going on a trip girl, we... Let's get going.
Christine Schiefer: This is like...
Em Schulz: If you and I saw that, we'd be like, "Call my Uber now," [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My dreams scavenger hunt. I know, "Come to Kentucky. We're going on a scavenger hunt." Umm.
Em Schulz: It's giving Randonautica. It's, you know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know it feels like it, it really does. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Cryptic notes, you know, with, with coordinates. Umm.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Well, obviously we're getting in the car right now. Let's go."
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So it gets weirder because on the direction, on the poster with directions, there was no address. And so...
Em Schulz: I love it.
Christine Schiefer: It was just direct... Directions, but, you know, you don't know at the end like where he's going. So Terri said, uh, you know, This is pretty normal for him. Chris didn't know his way around Iron River, so he wrote directions for himself, like "turn left at the library", you know.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: He kind of scrawled out directions on post-it notes in this...
Em Schulz: His own, his own handmade map quest.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Literally his own handwritten map quest and post...
Em Schulz: You tried. It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't even try. That's the saddest part, I didn't even try. Umm, so detectives followed [laughter] detectives followed the directions to an old house in a mining community called Old Caspian. So they're like, Okay. So we follow the directions, like third... I don't know, I don't know the specifics, but it's like, turn here, turn here. Uh, and it'll be like third house on the right. Okay. So they're doing the scavenger hunt, the Randonautica, they arrive at this address. They're like, "Where are we?" They ring the doorbell. It's the home of Kelly and Jason Cochran.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh shit, so right now we think he's sleeping with her.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That is the immediate.
Em Schulz: I'm on it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That is the immediate, "Oh shit." So Jason Cochran opened the door first and they asked, "Uh, is Kelly Cochran home?" And he said, "No, I don't know where she is." And...
Em Schulz: Uh! Okay, so now they're both missing. Great.
Christine Schiefer: And then she just appeared behind him in the, in the doorway. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Was that like a weird joke he made?
Christine Schiefer: No, the investigator actually said this is very pretty common. Like if a spouse opens the door and police are asking for them, they're...
Em Schulz: Ohh.
Christine Schiefer: Their gut instinct is to say like, "No, they're not here. Why? Can I, can I help you with something?"
Em Schulz: It's like, cover for them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or to at least just like get the information before serving their spouse up on a platter. Like, "Yeah here they are." Umm.
Em Schulz: Good to know. Allison would have absolutely relinquished me to the police with no questions asked. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You'd be in, in the... In this closet recording and Allison would be like, "Knock, knock. Oh, here they are. Uh, police come on in."
Em Schulz: Allison would give them a list of my favorite treats to entice me into the police car. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] And all the wrongdoings you've done against her, just in case they would... Wanted to arrest you on those charges too. [laughter] Your many wrongdoings.
Em Schulz: She'd be like, "And while you're at it, Em's called me a stinky witch for six years. Do something about that."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] It's about time they get behind bars. Oh boy. So Kelly was friendly and investigators, she... Said she wasn't nervous at all. She seemed genuinely concerned, like she wanted to be helpful. Uh, she introduced herself as Chris's coworker and then said she last spoke with him on the 14th or 15th, just like Terri had. Uh, she had sent him some texts and never heard from him. So she assumed he moved to North Carolina without saying goodbye. She told investigators that she had absolutely no idea why Chris would have directions to her house in his car. Umm, and she just seemed genuinely so perplexed that they were like, "Okay. Umm... " she said she would contact them if she heard anything from Chris, but investigators were a little bit suspicious, not about her, but about Jason's behavior because he was really standoffish. He seemed like he did not wanna be a part of this. Uh, he had nothing to say, so they just kind of left it. And meanwhile, at the factory, Chris' and Kelly's coworkers told investigators that it was very unusual for Chris to miss work because he was so reliable, punctual.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so they were pretty concerned when he failed to show up and they knew, as well as Terri did, that something had to be very wrong. They also added, "Hey, we're pretty sure that he and Kelly Cochran have been having an affair."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So just an FYI so investigators were like, "Cool, cool, cool. Let's bring those two in for questioning." So they bring Jason and Kelly in and they start talking to Kelly and she pretty immediately fesses up to the affair. She says they would meet at Chris's apartment several times a week. And when they asked about whether her husband knew, she said, "Oh yeah, Jason's totally okay with the affair,"
Em Schulz: Uh. What?
Christine Schiefer: Which we often know is a big fat lie.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, are they poly or something? Like, in which case is it an affair?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not. In the 2020 special, you can literally see them interviewing Jason and former police chief Laura Frizzo, who I love. She just is like... She's just so like, I don't know, bright and quick and like, I think the first female police chief in the area ever. So like, it's just cool to like see her story. But anyway, she told interviewers, "What I came to learn about this marriage was that it had been in trouble for a while. Kelly was living a life of a single person." And that's because when they interviewed Jason, you can see the footage. Jason was angry and jealous about Kelly's affair, and he is telling them, in no way is he okay with their affair.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So she's telling...
Em Schulz: Why did she think she would get away with that?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I'm like...
Em Schulz: That's such a bold face. Like, "I don't care if I get caught lying."
Christine Schiefer: Like, you're about to get found out. Why would you put yourself in this predicament? Like, why not just say no, "He's not okay with it." I don't know.
Em Schulz: Right. I meant I'm having an affair. You do the math. He's not down with this. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You don't have to like insist that he's okay with it. He's about to tell them he is not. Umm, so I thought that was odd. Uh, so police at this point are beginning to suspect that Jason might have had something to do with Chris's disappearance. He's jealous. He's, you know, like he's admitted he's jealous of this relationship. Umm, but of course they have no evidence to hold him, so they have to let him go. And five months pass by. Uh, during this five-month period rumors are swirling. Uh, people are talking obviously, but really nothing new came out until March 5th, 2015. That's when a new district attorney convinced a judge to grant a search warrant for the Cochran House. So now we're getting into the actual Jason and Kelly's house.
Em Schulz: Dynamics.
Christine Schiefer: To look for evidence. So the next day police entered the home, but they failed to find any evidence connecting Chris to their home at all. However, they did not go home empty handed. They did happen to find a little something...
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: And that little something was a rough draft of a book Jason was writing.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh, uh, the book was written under his online gaming [laughter] alias.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God, tell me what it is. Please tell me what it's, what is it?
Christine Schiefer: Can you take a guess? It's, I mean, you're not gonna guess it.
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't know, is it, is it, is it boring?
Christine Schiefer: It's stupid.
Em Schulz: Is it like, something 69 or...
Christine Schiefer: It's some... It's not something I would've done.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That, that, that, that...
Em Schulz: I'malwayscrazy444?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, basically, his alias was QuackQuack. [laughter]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Guess...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the story, guess what the story's called?
Em Schulz: Bark, bark, bark? Woof, woof, what?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It was actually a children's flap, open...
Em Schulz: Is it... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Open the flaps book.
Em Schulz: Old McDonald Had a Farm, what?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, the story was called 'QuackQuack's Revenge'.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. Okay. Maybe we'll shop the title.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, maybe. Uh, I don't think I wanna be part of it, but you can.
Em Schulz: So revenge as in like, it's implying that he already knew about the affair and is now going to kill the two of them.
Christine Schiefer: Well, sort of. Umm, it... He definitely did know about the affair. He had admitted, like, he knew about it. He just had to say... Set the record straight that he wasn't happy about it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he had known about the affair, it wasn't a shock to him, but he was not happy about it. So yeah, when QuackQuack's Revenge surfaced, I know it's like, "Oh, bud, like, what are you doing?" Umm...
Em Schulz: How old is this man?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, in his, like, 50s, I don't know.
Em Schulz: QuackQuack would've been hysterical as, like, a Neopet when I was 12, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like that probably was taken and it would have to be like, QuackQuack60532, because everyone wanted to name their Neo... Like, it's such a perfect Neopet name. I feel like it would've been a hit.
Em Schulz: But it wouldn't... It, it would've been any animal but a duck. That would've been the humor there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, of course not...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then you would've had to get a duck and named it like...
Em Schulz: Woof Woof.
Christine Schiefer: Moo Moo, you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: One of the cow ones, it is Quack... Yeah, exactly. Umm, you get it. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Did you know Neopets is having, like, a resurgence?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God, I just found this out because I hacked in... I didn't hack in. Well, I did hack into my old account, umm, and I was like, "Holy shit." And I joined, this was the saddest part ever, Alexander and I both looked up, like, a member since, and it said, September 12th, 2001.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And we were like, clearly we needed an outlet. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What was the one that I was a part... I didn't do Neopets. Was it, it wasn't Webkinz, which I thought was an excellent business.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, club, Club Penguin?
Em Schulz: Club Penguin, oh, my God, I loved Club Penguin.
Christine Schiefer: I never did Club Penguin, I did wish that...
Em Schulz: We should get, let's get Club Penguin accounts and Twitch-stream it together. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, well, let's get Neopets, 'cause that's the one I'm really good at. I mean, I play that hardcore.
Em Schulz: Okay, but when a cow shows up named QuackQuack I hope you friend-accept me.
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna friend-accept each other. Yeah, let's all... You guys can we all be Neopets friends, everybody? That'd be so fun.
Em Schulz: If there's an, And That's Why We Drink, Neopets Discord, I'm sure it can be set up. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer:[gasp][gasp] Fuck yes. Okay. Seriously, folks...
Em Schulz: Hang on. Let me see...
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna do it. If people are interested...
Em Schulz: Let me see how, how easy is it to, Neopets.
Christine Schiefer: How easy is it to what?
Em Schulz: Like to just, to just... You can just join?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God, I have, like, 85 accounts. Yeah, you can join anytime. It's so...
Em Schulz: I'm totally getting one today. Wow, what a waste of my time. I'm so excited.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and it's the best. My... Oh, by... My handle, by the way, if anyone is looking, is Tootsie208. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: But QuackQuack was crazy. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Listen, I was, what, 10, 9/11, 10?
Em Schulz: What was it, Tootsie what?
Christine Schiefer: I was going through 9/11. Tootsie208.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry, did you just say I was going through 9/11?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. [laughter]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was going through 9/12 that day, and I feel like, it's okay that I wanted to escape with a little online gaming.
Em Schulz: I, so if we ask the, the star of the story that you're telling, why he called it QuackQuack. Why he called his username QuackQuack, can he get away with saying, "Oh, I was just going through 9/11?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wait a second. He was on Club Penguin and he wasn't quite sure what noise Penguins make.
Em Schulz: I've never ever heard someone... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I've never in my life heard someone say that they were going through 9/11 as an excuse [laughter] for why their Neopets name...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Is TootsieQuackQuack.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You just came up with a whole new, a whole new rationale. I'm gonna try that on my therapist later and see what she says, "Oh, I was going through 9/11."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You know what I mean! [laughter] I was going through the collective trauma that the entire nation was feeling and I was 10. Okay? I wasn't saying I was going through 9/11 like I was personally affected. I just meant, you know, I was struggling with understanding...
Em Schulz: It sounds like...
Christine Schiefer: What was going on.
Em Schulz: So who... The only other person I've ever known to use that excuse...
Christine Schiefer: It's...
Em Schulz: Is Ryan from the office. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So embarrassing.
Em Schulz: It's like, "I had to... I never fully recovered from 9/11."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Me neither. [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's so fucking tough.
Christine Schiefer: No, uh, I know, I know, but I mean, I...
Em Schulz: I'm sweating. But that was the funniest, that was... This was the most, I've never, like, of all the things I would've expected to come out of your mouth, that was not it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was going through 9/11. I'm so sorry, [laughter] I didn't mean it like that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, well, hey, now I have a whole new incredibly fucked up inside joke for my arsenal. I, I needed one.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, by the way, I just won 5,000 neo points on a terror trove scratch card, so I feel like you and I are gonna have a blast. Em...
Em Schulz: What the hell does that mean?
Christine Schiefer: I can tell you all the fun. I learned how to gamble for sure. On, uh, Neopets. I learned all my gambling techniques on Neopets.
Em Schulz: You were gambling at 10. Were you still processing 9/11 or?
Christine Schiefer: Well, obviously I think I've made that abundantly clear.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, okay, let's get back to the story. Let me find the other tab that's not Neopets. Okay. So QuackQuack's Revenge. Let's get back to that [laughter] which is one of the wildest things I've ever heard.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, here we go. Uh, so in QuackQuack's Revenge, this is the story, right? He goes on a ven... Oh, by the way, it's hand-written, which makes it so much creepier.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. Hell yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh. He goes on a vengeful killing spree, and one of his victims in the story is named Chris.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Well that's a, that's a humdinger right there.
Christine Schiefer: There it is. Umm, so on March 25th, investigators returned to the Cochran's, but the couple was gone. Uh, they had actually just packed up all of their belongings and peaced out. They literally ran.
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: They left town. Umm, and I believe that the actual way they found out was that a neighbor called, uh, the, called the police chief and said like, "Hey, umm, I just watched them pack up their car and like, leave for good."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And they were like "Shit." So.
Em Schulz: It's like, "Goddamn it."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Goddamn it. So they packed up all their belongings and moved... Moved away.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Now, at first, uh, they couldn't figure out where they could have been, but suddenly [laughter] the police chief...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Hears from two private investigators who say, "Oh, the Cochran's? Yeah, don't worry. We placed a GPS tracker on their car last week."
Em Schulz: Oh, thank God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the police were like, "Oh, hell yeah. Nice work." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they were like, "Oh, we were also looking into those guys so we know exactly where they are." Uh, turns out they had driven back to Indiana.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, you know, I guess we're trying to, to hide out. So Iron River Police got in touch with Indiana authorities who got a DNA warrant, and they took DNA samples from Kelly and Jason, but the trail went cold. Umm, unfortunately the Cochran's were the only lead, and there was no evidence to support investigator suspicions that they had done it, except this creepy book. So it was sort of like, "Well, shit like, what else do we have to go on?"
Em Schulz: Right?
Christine Schiefer: So they just had to wait. Then the Cochran's neighbors speak up and they say to police, "Hey, we have a weird little, like, fun fact for you. Umm, back in October of 2014, Kelly and Jason were burning something in their backyard, kind of like secretly.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And it smelled pretty putrid." Uh, meanwhile, in a nearby body of water called the Caspian Pit, divers found a burn barrel tied to a cement block to weigh it down.
Em Schulz: Damn that's suspicious [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And not suspicious at all. Umm, but unfortunately the barrel had kind of disintegrated, come apart, and there was nothing inside the barrel. Very frustrating.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Then fast forward to February, 2016, the, the police are kind of sitting there going, "Shit like, what do we need to, to pin this on them? Now they're out of the state, like they've basically evaded justice. We don't know how to get back on their trail."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry. Kelly did that for them.
Em Schulz: Oh, Thanks Kel.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks Kel. Kelly calls Indiana police in February of 2016 in complete hysterics.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: She says her husband Jason wasn't breathing and they needed to come right away. So paramedics found Jason warm, sweaty, and sitting up. Kelly kept trying to interfere with paramedics to the point that they like notated. They made a note of how in their space she was, like, she wouldn't let them do their work. She kept trying to get her hands in and, you know, mess around with what they were doing. So they...
Em Schulz: I wonder what the prof... I wonder what the professional way to write that down in a log is of like, like, "Don't let her get near us when you get to the hospital."
Christine Schiefer: "Get out of my grill, dude." I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she, they actually had to move Jason outside to the ambulance to finish evaluating him because she was so in their face and they found a needle where he had been laying and considered maybe he was using heroin because he had such chronic pain.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but the death also didn't appear to be an overdose. So they were a little confused about, uh, what could be going on. And so Kelly thought, "Okay, well I know, I'll notify Jason's best friend that he has passed away." So Jason's best friend Walter gets a message about Jason's death. Kelly said, "Your friend has passed away." And Walter was like, this is getting real fishy.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It was also right around the time he saw a missing persons poster for a guy in the town that he knew Jason and Kelly lived.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, "Something very weird is going on," and his gut was like, "This isn't good." So he contacts police and he says, "There is no way Jason was using heroin. Like, he's my best friend. I promise you that is not what happened." Umm, Walter also knew that Jason and Kelly had moved back to Indiana. Umm, they had actually... Jason had actually told him, "Oh, by the way, we're suspects in a missing person's case. [laughter] That's why we moved from Michigan to Indiana." And so he was like, "Okay, so this is getting really fucking shady." Umm, but he told police when they came home to Indiana, Jason really struggled. Umm, he spent some time in the hospital for depression and a possible suicide attempt. And after that, Kelly began isolating Jason.
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: So he only had a few friends. He really struggled to go places by himself because of his disability. And Kelly made it increasingly difficult for him to reach out to people to go anywhere. He was basically stuck at home and anytime he was even playing a game with his friends online, the second Kelly got home, he'd be like, "Sorry, I gotta go. Gotta shut it off. Can't be playing my game."
Em Schulz: Oh, he was like very on eggshells around her about...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Having a life.
Christine Schiefer: He was like under her thumb. Yeah. So the medical examiner released his autopsy at the end of February, and that is when it was revealed that although there was a large amount of drugs in his system, his actual cause of death was strangulation.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And he also had a bad back, so he couldn't even escape if he wanted to.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, horrible.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So Kelly was now the suspect in Jason's murder and Chris's disappearance.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On February 21st, investigators brought Kelly in for questioning on Jason's death, but she basically gave them nothing. So detectives were like, "You know what, Walter, buddy, hey, you know how much... How close we are, uh, as the police, and you our buddy Walter, well, we have some undercover work for you to do. We have some secret plot." This is like my dream that someone's like, "I need you to be like the, the go-between." Like, "I need you to get the intel." You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I, I do know what you mean, and you'd be very good at it [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But he, understandably, did not wanna do it. Uh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They... And I get it. I feel like in this scenario, I wouldn't wanna do it either. They basically told him he had to call Kelly and lie to her face about something, and they would say...
Em Schulz: Easy for me.
Christine Schiefer: They were [laughter] check, next?
Em Schulz: Okay. What's, what's the hard part? I'm confused.
Christine Schiefer: He was like, "I felt really guilty." [laughter] I was like, "Okay." Umm, so detectives involved Walter on March 12th, Walter called Kelly on a line that of course, police were recording. He told her a fabricated story that back in February before Jason died, he had mailed Walter a letter.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So basically he tells Kelly, "Hey, I don't know how else to tell you this, but it, it's just kind of creeping me out. Umm, I received a letter from Jason, uh, before he died, saying, 'if something were to happen to me, forward this note to the Iron River police'."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so Walter said, "There is a stamp on this letter. It's in a sealed envelope. The, the Iron River police are... The address is written on the envelope with no return address." And in this letter, Walter tells Kelly, Jason wrote, 'if anything happens to me over the next few weeks, mail this to the police'. It's all a lie.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Just keep it... Keep in mind.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But he is telling Kelly this, she falls for it hook, line and sinker because he says to her, "It looks like I'm supposed to mail this." And she goes, "[gasp], please don't!"
Em Schulz: Love it.
Christine Schiefer: Shady. Walter said in that moment, he knew Kelly and Jason had been guilty of Chris's disappearance. And he remembers thinking, "I don't know where Chris is, but I'm sure he's dead."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He, he was like, "The second she said that, I was like 'Shit'."
Em Schulz: Yeah, he's gone.
Christine Schiefer: He's gone. Both Walter and Kelly's friend Jennifer, were worried Kelly might hurt them next. Which is pretty wild, because like your friend or your friend's spouse is now a murderer potentially. And also you are kind of involved now. So Walter's like, "Shit, I could be the next target. I'm the one who said I would send this letter to the police," like, "She might come after me."
Em Schulz: Oh. And that's such a... That's such a fair fear. I'd be like.
Christine Schiefer: Totally valid.
Em Schulz: I walked myself right into fire trying to be helpful, but now I'm like, I have a target on my back.
Christine Schiefer: And to be fair, like he was kind of pushed into it by the police.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't necessarily even walking, like he was kind of dragged in. Umm, so police put pressure on Kelly to confess. And bizarrely, after one detective noticed that Kelly frequently went to the park to sit under a tree, this detective was like, "I have a new angle and I'm gonna really, uh, get her good." And everyone was like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just wait till you hear what it is Em, he was like, "I think this will do the trick." And everyone was like, "Yo, I don't know. We don't wanna be part of this." This is what he did.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: So he had been f... This detective had been following her for a while to just keep an eye on what, what she did day to day. He noticed she went to the park to sit under a tree. And uh, apparently she would go there and just, I don't know, stare out at the specific tree. So one day after she left, he went and carved the words, "Chris is here" into the tree.
Em Schulz: [gasp] What? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: His. His goal was to make Kelly think Chris was haunting her.
Em Schulz: Girl.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Please. That is... That was the best plan they had. Didn't anyone else go like, "Mm, I mean, there's probably something else."
Christine Schiefer: They did. They were like, "What the fuck are you doing?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Did it work?
Christine Schiefer: Okay, let me tell you what happened. So the detective said, Kelly, the next time she went to the tree, he's watching it, of course, like, what's gonna happen? Kelly looked at the tree, ran. Ran from the park, and sped off in her vehicle. And that night she contacted him and admitted that her husband Jason, had murdered Chris in a jealous rage, and she was a victim of his controlling abuse. It literally worked.
Em Schulz: I, I, that feels like the first draft of a book that needs a lot of editing.
Christine Schiefer: A lot of work.
Em Schulz: That feels so unrealistic. That almost makes me think that we're trying too hard with every other sting operation we've ever done. If, if it's that easy?
Christine Schiefer: If we can just convince someone they're being haunted by the person that... Actually, that's not a bad book idea. Write that down. Tm, Tm, Tm.
Em Schulz: But also being haunted. Like, that's not even like you wake up and there's chairs in the middle of your house. That would've actually been kinda cool if they were like, "We're gonna break into her house when she's like taking a shower and like, fuck with all of her furniture."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that is cool. Em, let's break up into her... Break into her house while she's in the shower.
Em Schulz: Well, if you're the police, I feel like if you're doing an, a sting operation.
Christine Schiefer: You're allowed [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I feel like that would be at least like a creepier haunting, but like a random carving in a tree?
Christine Schiefer: So. So apparently the way this was described was that, uh, like in more detail, this particular detective had kind of done his own undercover work to an extent. I was not quite undercover, but he would meet with her regularly and try to gain her trust. So it got to the point where like, she was like confiding in him and he was saying, "Oh man, I'm totally on your side." Like, she thought this detective was like her friend.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know, and then he really wanted her to trust him, but she would go to this place in the park. She did not think anyone knew that she was going here. Right. So she would do this.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just kind of habitually, but like nobody knew that she had this secret little clearing she would sit in except this one detective.
Em Schulz: But even like the poss... Like. For me to even... The, the probability that someone's gonna look at the right tree at the right angle and actually take time to read the carvings and like, like the, there's so many ways that that would've been such a long game of waiting.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I wonder... So he said it was one very particular tree that she sat at. So I'm like, I wonder if this bench was next to a tree and she could see the tree right from the bench.
Em Schulz: How big do you make the carving before it's too obvious, you know, like, but it's, it's, it has to be big enough that she notices.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I'm gonna write, "Chris was here, uh, police tree" and see what happens. Uh, wow. That did not work. Uh, [laughter]
Em Schulz: Which is wild. 'cause you would think...
Christine Schiefer: How many "Chris was here" police trees are there?
Em Schulz: You would think for the amount of people who were into like morbid tourism, that tree would be getting a lot of play right now. You know, like, there'd be pictures... People would be taking pictures with a tree, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, Em I can't even find a photo.
Em Schulz: That's wild. I, I'm still... We're not even taking enough time to... That the... That plan was the worst plan to actually go right.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's really shocking that it worked. I'll agree with you there.
Em Schulz: I'm am... I'm amazed that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That, that blew my mind.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And, uh, I thought that's Looney Tunes, and now she's gonna think somebody knows where she goes and hangs out. But apparently she believed it and she came running out of the woods. Umm, so she sped off in her vehicle, then she called, uh, the guy, the detective who wrote it [laughter] and said, didn't say anything about the tree, but basically said, "You know what? I have to fess something up to you. My husband did this, and he's an abuser to me." And so that was at least a break in the case. Umm, of course, detectives didn't think this was the whole story. Before they could bring Kelly in for more questioning. She skipped town again and went on the run.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So on April 26th, 2016, Kelly texted one of the detectives, this same guy. She's playing like the det... The way they described it was like a cat and mouse game. Like, I mean, it is a cat and mouse game. He's writing secret notes in trees, she's falling for it. She's giving him like half the truth, truth. They're meeting for pie at the diner and like, she's trusting him, but not really. So she goes on the run, no one knows where she is. And then this same detective that they're having this kind of cat and mouse thing receives a text from Kelly.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: And the text reads, "The West Coast looks beautiful this morning."
Em Schulz: Eugh!
Christine Schiefer: So. She's like telling him where she is.
Em Schulz: That's so eerie.
Christine Schiefer: It's weird. Like, he's not on your side, girl.
Em Schulz: Is there... Is she... Does she... And she really believes that he's on her side?
Christine Schiefer: No, I think she just thinks like, "Oh, this is a fun little cat and mouse game."
Em Schulz: Cat and mouse. It also feels like, is she flirting with him or something? I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: It felt a little flirty. It felt a little flirty. And I think they did insinuate that it was kind of a flirtatious relationship.
Em Schulz: Like maybe he was her next target or something?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, I think she thought she could kind of flirt him into her circle. Into her corner.
Em Schulz: Huh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they're...
Em Schulz: Wow. So they're... Talk about a confidence to just like, thinking you can get away with that whoo.
Christine Schiefer: That's ballsy. So she says, uh, "the West Coast looks beautiful this time of year, this morning." Umm, so now they know where, at least in general, where she is. And, you know, her behavior, this whole investigation has been disturbing, to put it lightly. Uh, she seemed to lack any sort of guilt or empathy whatsoever. Umm, it was like, this was all a big game and she kind of was like...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Had a thrill about sending texts and like giving little clues. So.
Em Schulz: It feels really... All of it has some sort of air of like, immaturity to it, of like... I mean, truly seeing like a carving on a tree and immediately feeling just like, like you have to fess up. But then also...
Christine Schiefer: It feels like a movie. Like, it's like a little too...
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then like, I don't know, it just all feels like you should at least know if you're gonna commit multiple murders, you know, maybe hide it. I don't know. It just seems like she, like, she's like really naively...
Christine Schiefer: She's being naive. She's being completely naive. That's a good way to put it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like she really thinks that she can just like, give little clues and they won't come back to bite her in the ass? Like, come on.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So after a nationwide search, uh, they eventually found Kelly and she had actually been arrested at her cousin's house in Wingo, Kentucky. And police from Michigan and Indiana both drove down to question her. She told the investigators that she and Chris planned to run away together, but that Jason had discovered their affair and was jealous and became violent and killed Chris.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She said on October 13th, 2014, the couple got into an argument about Chris and Jason brought up a pact they had made on their wedding night. Are you ready for the pact?
Em Schulz: Literally, I, I cannot wait.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So she tells police, "Well, our pact on our wedding night was that if one of us cheats, they would have... We... The cheater would have to kill the partner they cheated on."
Em Schulz: [gasp] What? That feels like a, like a pact. Like a, not like this is... Like, like a silly funny joke, but it feels like something that like someone maybe said like off the cuff or something as like a not serious thing and... But then she like really took it seriously. I don't know. That that feels really weird. Like taken outta context or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So it goes on, because apparently Jason allegedly told Kelly that if she didn't stay true to their pact and kill Chris...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: He would. So that was part of the pact as well. It was, you have to kill the person you cheated with or the other person will then do it if you're not gonna do it.
Em Schulz: I can't, I can't ima... I can't imagine making a promise that intense, like thinking, well that will never... First of all, I can't imagine making that promise. But then even if I did, I'd be like, "Well, that's never gonna happen, so why would I even have to worry about that?" And then all of a sudden being put in that situation, it's like, "Well, I take that back. It was just... It was just my words," you know...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So just for some clarity, this woman lies nonstop, so I don't think this is even true.
Em Schulz: Okay. 'cause that a...
Christine Schiefer: Um, I'm pretty sure she just made this up.
Em Schulz: So outlandish.
Christine Schiefer: Because then when they kind of push back like that is pretty outlandish and wild. She was like, "I know I thought it was a joke, but he took it way too seriously." And I'm like, "Girl, did you just make this up?" Like, "This doesn't make any... " uh, I don't know whether it was made up or not, but, uh, that is what she insisted happened. Um, so Kelly, this is her story. She said she had invited Chris over for dinner and sex. She said they were actually having sex at the top of the basement stairs when Jason came up the stairs and shot Chris in the back of the head. Then he used a saw in the basement. Oh, by the way, when they like asked her about this in the trial, she was like, "Oh yes, we were still having sex as we fell down the stairs." [chuckle], I was like...
Em Schulz: Eww. Also...
Christine Schiefer: What the actual fuck is going on?
Em Schulz: Also, if you're coming, so wait, he... So they're doing it up at the top of the stairs. Jason shows up on the stairs. So they didn't... They're not even hiding that they're having the affair...
Christine Schiefer: So I...
Em Schulz: Because if you heard someone walk in, wouldn't you be like, "Oh, we have to stop having sex." But you literally let him get to the stairs.
Christine Schiefer: I actually thought it was the other way. I've seen multiple sources. Some say he was on the basement stairs going up. Some say he came into the house, saw them at the top of the stairs, shot him in the head, and they went tumbling down the stairs. So.
Em Schulz: My God.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's probably not what happened. So.
Em Schulz: Okay, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Let's just say like we don't have to give it too much credence. Um, but that is the story she told. She said, then Jason used a saw in the basement to dismember Chris, and then they scattered Chris's body in the woods. And, uh, Kelly said that while she was hiding Chris's remains, she was planning Jason's death because he had murdered her one true love. Uh, she said Chris had been the only good thing in her life, and now she resented Jason for taking that away, even though she was also involved and was like hiding his body. So in February 2016, Jason had been struggling with this worsening back pain and Kelly told him she'd get a drug to ease his pain. She found for him some heroine and gave him a lethal dose. But Jason didn't die as fast enough as Kelly thought he would. So she told police he was still conscious when she strangled him to death.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: In April, 2016 Kelly was charged with both murders. Chris's ex-girlfriend Terri, the one we heard about up top, who like he had moved to town for her and they had had that long distance relationship.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She was absolutely horrified by the details of the case. Uh, she said she always suspected they had hurt Chris in the woods and left him there to die, but she never suspect... Suspected how depraved this murder actually was. Um, on May 18th, 2016, police set out again with canine units to find Chris's remains after Kelly gave them a tip on where they could be. Um, they only found Chris's skull and a few other bone fragments, but there was a bullet hole in the skull. So it, it could be, it could be. Umm, the problem is like now that Jason is dead, we don't hear his side like...
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: It could have been Kelly who killed him. I don't know. But Jason also had that book about revenge. So I mean, for all I know he could have done exactly what she said and shot him at the top of the stairs. I'm not sure. Umm, Kelly also surrendered a pair of forceps, which she said she and Jason used to remove the bullet from Chris's skull.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And when they tested the forceps, they tested positive for Chris's blood. So...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: It is possible that that's how it went. In a 2018 documentary on the case called Dead North. Former police Chief Laura Frizzo, who I was mentioning earlier, was reenacting the discovery of Chris's skull and like showing the video crew where it had been found when they actually discovered Chris's jawbone, they hadn't found it in the previous searches. So...
Em Schulz: And it was where?
Christine Schiefer: Where his skull was originally found. She just brought them out to the site to say like, "This is where we found his skull." And one of the crew members found...
Em Schulz: Like tripped on it? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like basically stumbled upon...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: Chris's jawbone, which must have just been so, I don't know, jarring.
Em Schulz: That feels more like, like a haunted activity than the, you know, the tree carving. It's like, "Oh, here's my mouth."
Christine Schiefer: That's spooky. Right?
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So Kelly refused several plea deals and went to trial for murder, uh, lying to a police officer and mutilating a dead body. She did take the stand during the trial and she told the defense team that her initial confession wasn't exactly right.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] She said that actually Jason violently abused her during their marriage and she had invited Chris over the night he was killed, but she didn't know Jason was home. So Jason snuck up on them while they were having sex and shot Chris. Uh, Jason told Kelly he would kill her too if she didn't help him dismember Chris. And that was the only reason she had participated in the dismembering of Chris.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Classic.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, the jury didn't buy her story. Uh, many people had long believed that Kelly was actually the controlling abusive party in her marriage to Jason, as we could tell by the way that she controlled when he left the house, what he did, how many friends he was allowed to have, his internet usage. I mean, classic abusive behavior, classic controlling, manipulative behavior.
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: So on February 28th... Did you say nice? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Nice. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: On February 28th, 2017, the jury found Kelly guilty on all accounts, including first degree premeditated murder after only 3 hours of deliberation.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: She... Yeah, they were like, "We don't believe you for a second," especially with all the lies. Like, come on.
Em Schulz: Especially when like, Jason was already dead. You could have come up with this story of he was abusing you and now you're free to say your piece. And...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Now it's suddenly like, "Oh, I forgot to tell everybody." It's like, "Well... "
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's kind of late for that. Umm, so she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. She was then sent to Indiana to be tried for Jason's murder because this one...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Was just about Chris.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So instead she entered a plea deal and pled guilty to Jason's murder and was sentenced to 65 years in prison for the crime. So in the Dead North documentary, Kelly's own brother claimed Kelly and Jason could be responsible for even more unsolved murders.
Em Schulz: Oh, interesting.
Christine Schiefer: So the two of them as a couple were very toxic and violent.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but there's no evidence currently backing that claim. So... But the fact that it's Kelly's brother saying like, "Hey, I think they've done more." Like...
Em Schulz: That's damning.
Christine Schiefer: That's damning, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So in an interview with 2020 reporters, Kelly told another version of her story where actually now she says she was tied up while Jason forced her to watch him kill and dismember Chris. So like...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: We don't... I mean, she just made that up in prison and told them like...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: The tenth new story.
Em Schulz: I have a feeling we've never actually heard the truth, ever.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly it. Like, that's why I'm like, don't like hold, you know, don't give too much weight to any of these because we don't really know what happened, except that in some way she was responsible. So, uh, Laura Frizzo said quote, "This is the first I'm hearing of her ever saying she was tied up. This is a game and she's gonna continue this game as long as she can." And that is the story of Kelly Cochran.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And her lunacy... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, yeah, great word. Ups and downs and twists and turns...
Christine Schiefer: I am telling you.
Em Schulz: And ups and rights.
Christine Schiefer: Plot twist galore, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: QuackQuack. Approved, apparently. I don't know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: QuackQuack, QuackQuack inspired, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: The story... Okay. There was like a note about... Oh shit, I meant to write what, like, QuackQuack re... There was a note about like what QuackQuack's Revenge, like a line from it. It is balloon balloonatoons, like it is next level noodles all the way to the top. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I need to find, maybe we can do like a, a separate reading on Patreon. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm.
Em Schulz: Well, hey, speaking of Patreon, we're...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Gonna go over there and chit-chat and I have a well Buzzfeed quiz I want your responses to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: And maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Is it a spooky, a spooky...
Em Schulz: It's a spooky one. I got some spooky news to share with you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And all kinds of good stuff. Stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Here's the thing, just to give everyone, so we, we did, After Chats for a while, we felt like they weren't really picking up because I think it was just like us randomly rambling. Umm, we are now creating more structured episodes for Patreon that are, Umm, typically like true crime or paranormal-related. Umm, they have more of like a theme and a topic, and actually patrons can submit topic ideas, Umm, and they go into a list that we can kind of pick and choose from. Umm, for example, like I might cover some case updates on stories that, uh, I've covered in the past. Like, you know, if people are finally apprehended, brought to justice, Umm, we might cover paranormal cases that Em hasn't been able to cover because they're too small, you know, or we might go over a Buzzfeed listicle or quiz or I don't know. But we're trying to keep it more structured.
Em Schulz: Go through some topic... Topical news, thing like that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so we're hoping, Umm, people are more into that, Umm, because it's, you know, on brand, it's just an extension of the episodes themselves. So if you're interested, Umm, you can go to patreon.com/at, what is it? Slash?
Em Schulz: WWD?
Christine Schiefer: Is it? Hold on. Patreon.com/atwwdpodcast. That's the one. Umm, and check us out there. We have a lot of fun stuff and, Umm, yeah, we're excited.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine. That was a bit of a longer one, but I don't even care. That was... Those are some good stories.
Christine Schiefer: Man. We nailed it I hope. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And.
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.