E338 Caramel Apple Eating Ghosts and Moist Brains
TOPICS: FRANZ MESMER - THE FATHER OF MESMERIZING AKA THE FATHER OF HYPNOTISM, THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MALAYSIA AIRLINES FLIGHT 370
Recording in progress... please excuse any technical difficulties in episode 338, including Christine being in an entirely different outfit at one point during her story. This week Em takes us on a hypnotizing journey into the world of the subconscious with the story of Franz Mesmer, the father of mesmerizing. Then Christine brings us the mysterious and tragic case of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, that disappeared with barely a trace on its regularly scheduled route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. And don't tell Reddit how intoxicated Christine was at the Taylor Swift concert... and that's why we drink!
TRANSCRIPT
[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: All right. It looks like we're recording. There's no Zoom lady to go...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Recording now.
Christine Schiefer: Recording in pro... Re... Whatever.
Em Schulz: Doesn't she say...
Christine Schiefer: You think I would've memorized her one line by now.
Em Schulz: I th... I'm pretty sure she sure says the two words recording now. No?
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't think so.
Em Schulz: Recording now.
Christine Schiefer: Recording in progress.
Em Schulz: Recording now.
Christine Schiefer: Recording in progress.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Is that wrong?
Em Schulz: I don't know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Eva what does Zoom say? Eva!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Eva! Where are you? Text me.
Em Schulz: What does she say? Are you gaslighting me, Christine? I feel pretty confident in recording now.
Christine Schiefer: Recording in progress.
Em Schulz: No way.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Recording in progress. You don't hear it? I'm so good at it.
Em Schulz: Well, now it's too... Hold on. Do it again. One more time.
Christine Schiefer: Recording in progress.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I'm on Zoom by accident. Hang on, I gotta switch over.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like we just hit, recorded eight times and [laughter] just kept stopping you, which also is entirely possible 'cause we have done that before. Umm...
Em Schulz: Christine look at you in your little tie dye. What's the vibe?
Christine Schiefer: Okay, here's what's happening. There's so many things happening. I got a new webcam.
Em Schulz: I wanted all the... All the updates. Okay?
Christine Schiefer: Can you see me okay?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I got a new webcam. It's supposed to be like 4K and like really fancy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I don't know why, but I just was like, let's fucking up our quality, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So we'll see if it works. It's like on a tripod up there, but you can kind of see more of my background now.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A wide lens.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a wide lens situation we've got going on. Umm, I went to the Fall Out Boy concert, umm, and it was the best night of my life. Umm...
Em Schulz: Right! Oh my gosh. Did you wear your shirt?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, no, because I felt like I was a little bit made fun of by people. [laughter] Not really.
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: Well, like I made a comment... My sister.
Em Schulz: Like by me?
Christine Schiefer: My sister was like, "Oh yeah, it looks homemade or something." And she was just trying to be supportive, but it was like, "Oh no, now I'm paranoid." So I didn't wear it. Umm...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, who do I gotta beat up? But it's your baby sister, so. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Not my sister, please. She is not a minor anymore, so there's that. So that's okay. But, uh, still she's my sister. Umm, but look at my... Do you wanna see my Fall Out Boy manicure? Remember how I told you I'm... I have all these new pa... Passions or hobbies?
Em Schulz: Yes, yes. I'm familiar with your passions. Umm, those are amazing. I like your little, oh... The thumb's my favorite. The thumb... I don't know what it is though. What is it?
Christine Schiefer: It's like they're a symbol. They have of like a smiley face that's half smiling and half not smiling.
Em Schulz: That does seem like your vibe entirely. [laughter] And then you got a little French tip and a star.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And a little like, umm, hand-drawn star and then like a little antler.
Em Schulz: Very cool. Is the antler, does that mean something?
Christine Schiefer: It's like from Sugar, We're Going Down Swinging.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, it was the best night in my life. I got recognized by so many people and it was horrifying because I was extremely intoxicated and I remember most of the encounters. And then the last one I started yelling at this poor woman in her face, "Don't tell Reddit that I'm drunk." And she was like, "I won't." And I was like, "Don't worry, I'm fine. I hear how drunk I sound."
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I can consciously understand, like I was going on this crazy rant and my sister and Renée were like, "Can we leave?" And I was like, "I just need to tell her not to put it on Reddit." And she was like, "I'm not putting... What are you?" Like?
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: What on Reddit.
Em Schulz: Someone's fears really came out. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It was like crazy town. It was like crazy town. Umm, and I... Like, I got photos of people and I'm like, every time it's like, you've been tagged. I'm like, "Uh-oh, nothing's come up yet." But I'm like, "Oh God, you're gonna see my one eye open. Like I'm always... "
Em Schulz: Oh, I love Christine's one eye that doesn't know how to stay open.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's a lazy eye.
Em Schulz: Oh. She's so confused. That little eye, she doesn't know where she's going.
Christine Schiefer: And she's like... She's like, "Can we go to bed please?" Umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She's already in bed. I don't know what you're talking about. She's tucked in.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's down for the count.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but anyway, it was the best night of my life and Renée came down from Cleveland and my sister went with her boyfriend. It was just so fun and amazing and, umm, I'm in love with Patrick Stump all over again. It's not new... It's not news.
Em Schulz: Wow, I'm sorry. I'm so surprised.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know. [laughter] Umm, but then the next day I was like, "Oh, I have an appointment at my GI doctor." And I went in and they were like, "We need an emergency colonoscopy on you stat." And so literally in two days I have to get a fricking camera up my butt.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Again.
Christine Schiefer: Again. And it's like...
Em Schulz: Your butt is getting so familiar with cameras.
Christine Schiefer: It's getting a lot of action, you know? Umm...
Em Schulz: She's got a lot of FaceTime. I wonder if her camera's in 4K.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Actually maybe. I have photos.
Em Schulz: I hope so. I medically hope so.
Christine Schiefer: I have photos, but they're not pleasant.
Em Schulz: Of your... Of your tushy?
Christine Schiefer: Of the inside. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Can I see? [chuckle] Is that weird?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but... But yeah. No, I think I've shown them to you before. [laughter] I'm pretty sure because what... They were in Los Feliz with me and I think I showed you once [laughter] 'cause you were the only one who offered to see them. And I was like, "Thank you."
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: Here's my... Here's my ulcers. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Not to be like gross about it, but I do wanna know, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I wanted to know. I thought it was interesting. I would see your in intestines if I... If I...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: If I was offered.
Em Schulz: One... Uh, one day you will be offered, just give it time.
Christine Schiefer: When you're like six... 45, 50, 60, whatever the like recommended age is. I'm supposed to get them now every two years for the rest of my life.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine. Two years. Every two years.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I got my last one pre-COVID. So they were like, "You are late on this and like you, we gotta get moving." And tomorrow I start... Went to Walgreens, picked up my PrEP and it's like this big of all this powder. And they were like, "You have to wake up at 1:30 AM and drink it."
Em Schulz: Yeah. You're gonna be... I mean, I know you're gonna be miserable and you know that 'cause you've done this before, but I still feel so bad for you.
Christine Schiefer: Well, thank you. Today I'm, umm, drinking a cherry coke, a black cherry cane, sugar soda because tomorrow... Starting tomorrow I can't drink anything with red dye in it, so they don't think it's blood. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So you're going full red today? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I'm going... I'm just like eating red, which I'm pretty sure I'm also Red 40 allergic too, but we'll see what happens. Like, I get rashes a little bit when I eat a lot of red dye.
Em Schulz: Okay, well, we'll find out tonight...
Christine Schiefer: But only a little bit.
Em Schulz: If that... It happens.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, I'm sorry. I've talked... Talked so much. How are you?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: I miss you.
Em Schulz: I miss you. I... When ha... When did I last see you?
Christine Schiefer: A long time, it feels.
Em Schulz: No, when did I last see you?
Christine Schiefer: In person?
Em Schulz: Like a... Like half a thousand years ago. What, how, when did that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean... Pbbbt. I can't even recall.
Em Schulz: Ah, I miss your body in the same room as my body. You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: I know that. I think that also is a Fall Out Boy line. You've been speaking in a lot of really mysterious terms.
Em Schulz: I'm cha... I'm trying to channel whatever love language you need, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, this is the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. Looking at my pictures of my intestines. And...
Em Schulz: I just... I'm trying to create like faux Fall Out Boy AI generated lyrics and look at your butt. That's it.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] That's so good. You're so good at it.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, there actually is a Fall Out Boy line. Umm, it's called, uh, your inside X-ray or like an x-ray of your insides or something. So it really does seem like maybe...
Em Schulz: Well you know all about that.
Christine Schiefer: They know... They're onto something. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, how am I, umm, here and there. I'm really... The main thing. I will evade more medical talk for once in everyone's life.
Christine Schiefer: Haha.
Em Schulz: Umm. Uh, I've had, uh, a lot of friends come into town recently, which has been very lovely, but I'm also... I think I'm just a little socially burnt out now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: I think I had... I think it's... When we're recording this, it's mid-July and I really haven't not had a social thing happen for a while. Umm, I've... Whatever... I don't even know if I said that the right way.
Christine Schiefer: I know what you mean.
Em Schulz: But I've had... Umm, like I went to... You know, we had RJ's wedding. My mom came into town immediately after that. Then my friends came into town immediately after that. I just had more friends come into town. And then next week or two weeks from now, I'm heading home to be with hometown friends. I just... I just wanna take a nap and have no one talk to me ever again. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, will it be nice to be home though 'cause you can like actually just like, huddle yourself into your childhood home?
Em Schulz: Kind of.
Christine Schiefer: Or is it like too social there too?
Em Schulz: No, it's definitely not too social there, I actually get...
Christine Schiefer: Because I revert to childhood when I go to my mom's house and I just lay under a blanket and I'm like, "I'm hungry."
Em Schulz: I also revert to childhood. But the problem with that is I have... I think my biggest... I have many flaws to be clear. One of my...
Christine Schiefer: You have one and only flaw. Let's all be real.
Em Schulz: My... My... My least favorite flaw about myself is that I am nostalgic to a fault. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I do know that about you for sure.
Em Schulz: And I hurt my own feelings a lot when I go home because...
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: In my mind going home... The only times I've ever gone home were for like a college break or something. And so every time I go home, part of me is like real bummed that like... First of all, half my friends don't even live there anymore. And the ones that do have to work, and I'm like down the... I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: So you're like it's not the same.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I get all... All hurt that I'm like driving through my hometown and no one wants to play with me. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. My God. I'm always like, I don't wanna tell... Well, I live here now, but before I'd be like, I don't wanna tell anyone I'm coming home so that I can just sleep for many days.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I... You know, it's... It's, I wonder how it's gonna be this time 'cause I am...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's my biggest flaw. Well, it's not the biggest, but it's one of them.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Quick. This whole episode will be us just listing our flaws. It'll be...
Christine Schiefer: It's never gonna be quick.
Em Schulz: Four hours long.
Christine Schiefer: It's gonna be... I was gonna say, you said quick. That is the wrong word.
Em Schulz: I... It... I think this time around maybe I'll be happy with the fact that people have to work...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm...
Em Schulz: And can't play with me because I'm socially burnt out, as I said. But usually going home, I'm... I'm so happy to be home, but part of me is always a little sad 'cause I just... It makes me like miss the good times about being a teenager.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's fair.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm very lucky. I very much loved my hometown and my childhood. And so...
Christine Schiefer: That is... That's really great.
Em Schulz: And I still have my childhood bed and so it's, it's whenever I go there, everything feels like I'm 17 again, including my fucking attitude when my mom's in the room, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
Em Schulz: Oof I'm already... I apologize now...
Christine Schiefer: It's real.
Em Schulz: Mom, for my behavior 'cause it's gonna be crazy.
Christine Schiefer: They love it. They're like, no, we don't. We actually really need it.
Em Schulz: I... I know she hates it, but as soon as I'm gone and maybe she wishes one more day of it.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying, like, maybe they just gotta dig a little deeper and realize...
Em Schulz: What's... As a mom now, what is it like to know that one day Leona's just gonna be like, you know, have her moment where she's just a little hellish.
Christine Schiefer: I dunno, it's so weird 'cause I'm like, I can't even...
Em Schulz: She'll still love you, but she's gonna, you know, she's gonna be finding herself.
Christine Schiefer: It's gonna be scary. You know, I'm a little scared 'cause I'm like, you know, it's scary like to have... Especially now with like the new parenting techniques or like the just, you know, shift in how we approach chi... Children and our relationship with our children. Like, I don't know, I... I'm worried 'cause I'm like, there's a... I feel like there's an area that's to maintain of like independence and freedom, but also like keeping them safe and I don't know, it seems like wild, wild west because it's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Well we don't know what the internet will look like in 10, 15 years. Like, the thought of that is mind boggling to me.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is everything AI. Is it not Fall Out Boy anymore? It's just re... Of Em speaking in AI Fall Out Boy lyrics like that's...
Em Schulz: Is it just a deep fake of me as like Pete Wentz?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That... Now that if that's the only thing on the internet, man, then, uh, I don't know, count me in.
Em Schulz: We have not even... You and I have never even really done our own friendship deep dive into AI yet. So the next time I see you, I'm gonna get you good and high. Maybe a little tipsy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: We're gonna have a good time.
Christine Schiefer: It's gonna be the Em...
Em Schulz: You have no idea what's about to happen.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. Sometimes when I get excited I really start shouting, but I'm so excited. That is gonna be... Well can I come to your hometown? Now I wanna play.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You can. I'm... Well. Oh... Oh I have to be there. I mean, I'm gonna see you in 10 days, homie. Don't you have a show?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Can I come to your hometown? You're like... I mean you're contractually obligated to in literally 10 days.
Em Schulz: It's like you've agreed to. So Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. DC baby!
Em Schulz: So that means I have to get a plane ticket. Wow. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Weeee worth it...
Em Schulz: Wow. That's... Okay, so that's the next thing on the docket after we record, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I don't even have my plane ticket yet. Okay. So don't worry.
Em Schulz: Everyone, uh... Oh one good... I'll leave it on this tiny little thing. A good reason why I drink this week. By the way. I'm drinking some Starbies. I'm having having an Arnie P. Well Black tea Lemonade.
Christine Schiefer: Look at that cute little... What's that flower on it?
Em Schulz: I dunno. She just appeared.
Christine Schiefer: Is it a sticker?
Em Schulz: It's a sticker. They just put her on.
Christine Schiefer: That's so cute.
Em Schulz: I didn't wanna ask questions 'cause I was afraid they'd take my sticker away. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, "You can't have that. Who gave that to you?"
Em Schulz: It's like, "Whoa. I was looking for that." Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I was looking for my post-it note flower.
Em Schulz: Anyway, having an Arnie P, umm, on this Monday and... Well, it's Sunday for others, but Monday to you and me and what... Why do I drink? Oh! I, in my refrigerator, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Have two caramel apples.
Christine Schiefer: You do. In July? It's not even autumn yet.
Em Schulz: I'm so naughty. I'm...
Christine Schiefer: I am so amped for you right now.
Em Schulz: There's nothing that this person right here [chuckle] loves more than a caramel apple...
Christine Schiefer: So I know it.
Em Schulz: Plain. Plain. None of this nonsense with the... With the dips and the things.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. You know me. I'm like, cover it in every conceivable condiment and item that you can. Oreo nuts.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Granola. I don't care Sprinkles.
Em Schulz: I... No, I just want a just a good old slap some caramel on her...
Christine Schiefer: Where did you get it?
Em Schulz: Uh, we went to so many... Uh, one of my friend was in town. We just kind of went to a million different shops.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: We went to a candy shop. And obviously my...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say like it wasn't a harvest fair. It's too early for that.
Em Schulz: No, it's candy shop, but I beelined it to where I thought the candy apples might be.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And I... And every... I hate a candy apple. I like caramel apple.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm notinto it.
Em Schulz: Woo. I don't know who eats a candy apple, but good for you.
Christine Schiefer: People from 1952 who are probably ghosts now.
Em Schulz: Yes. Has to be.
Christine Schiefer: And by people, I mean like old people from 1952 who now don't exist anymore.
Em Schulz: I don't know a person in my life who enjoys a candy apple. Maybe you are one of them. I...
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna hear... We're gonna...
Em Schulz: Wanna hear about it.
Christine Schiefer: Listen. Megan, can you put a poll on Instagram and say caramel or candy apple and see what happens.
Em Schulz: Actually, just put caramel or caramel because no one's gonna pick candy.
Christine Schiefer: I wanna know how many sickos there are out there listening.
Em Schulz: [cackles] Anyway, not only do I have one, I have a two, and I'm so excited about it.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And I'm good. Oh... Oh, I'm so excited. Oh, every time we fly, umm, Eva and I, we fly out of, uh, Burbank, obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: When we're... When we're touring. And every time we get a layover in Denver, I get so fucking thrilled because the Denver airport, the terminal that we always end up in for our layover, has the... The Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory, and they always have caramel apples.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: And every time we have a layover in Denver, I'm significantly happier after the tour because I had a caramel apple that week.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The chart is like bizarre. It's like...
Em Schulz: Rollercoaster.
Christine Schiefer: Hey you also get to see that demonic horse and stuff. So it is a good time in... Uh, in Denver.
Em Schulz: That's the truth. Yeah. Anyway, did everyone enjoy those 15 minutes.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Christine, the story I have is real silly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, it's...
Christine Schiefer: What could it mean? What could it mean?
Em Schulz: It's just... Well, you'll understand what I mean with silliness.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, umm, this is kind of a... What's it called? Like a biopic of when do... When I do those episodes about a person.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, this is also a bit of a deep dive on some interesting histories. So here today for all of you, I am telling you the tale, the biopic of Franz Mesmer.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: The father of mesmerizing.
Christine Schiefer: Yee-es.
Em Schulz: AKA the father of hypnotism.
Christine Schiefer: Hypnosis. Oh, I'm... Okay. I'm buckled up.
Em Schulz: Sorry. I needed to swallow the rest of my cookie.
Christine Schiefer: I was like... Are you doing a... Are you, uh, conducting a symphony?
Em Schulz: Mesmerizing you?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh.
Em Schulz: You know what... You know what I just saw? If anyone wasn't watching YouTube, those last few seconds made no sense. But I was doing a... A wave thing with my hands.
Christine Schiefer: That's just like silence.
Em Schulz: You know what, umm, I watched a TikTok recently where someone said, umm, my favourite thing about, uh, older white women is when they're dancing, they look like they're casting a spell on the sky, because they all do this. [cackles]
Christine Schiefer: You're a hundred percent right. That's what I'm doing. Every time you call me Kermit. 'Cause you call me Kermit for my dance moves, what I'm really doing is conjuring some magic, you know. So how dare you.
Em Schulz: Conjuring... Anyway, that was, that's my TikTok of the day for everybody to go find. [laughter] Umm, what a fun scavenger hunt for you. Okay, so here's Franz. F-R-A-N-Z...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Em Schulz: Frank with a Z. Franz. Okay. You would think I would know how to pronounce it, but I am terrified every time I mispronounce something. So just double checking.
Christine Schiefer: Franz, Francisca, Like my sister Franz. Franz.
Em Schulz: So I am mispronouncing it.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're not. You're just saying it in your own accent.
Em Schulz: In my silly dialect.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So first of all, before we get into it, let's discuss hypnosis. Dear Christine...
Christine Schiefer: Let's...
Em Schulz: Have you been hypnotized? Would you like to be hypnotized? And what would it be for or would you like done to you?
Christine Schiefer: No, yes, anything and everything...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I Would love to be hypnotized. I'm afraid I'm too like... Like too like neurotic to be hypnotized. Like I feel like I would be overthinking it the whole time.
Em Schulz: I... I'm afraid that I would either fully be like the weakest link, easiest, easiest victim, or I would be...
Christine Schiefer: I wouldn't say victim. Like this is some sort of like true crime.
Em Schulz: Like, as I'm volunteering probably in my...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In this... In this world. I'm also volunteering for it, but I'm still a victim because I know... I'm imagining like at one of those shows where like, they make you do something silly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that is kind of a victim. You're baulking like a chicken.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know... I either think I would totally be the easiest person to hypnotize or it would just not work at all. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: That's my fear. I'm like, I feel like I would be overthinking it, but I really want to be hypnotized. I know that's part of it, right? Like, you're supposed to be like really on board. Umm...
Em Schulz: Both of... Both of my parents have been hypnotized.
Christine Schiefer: You know, we talked about that. 'Cause I tried that hypnotherapy, but I don't think... Like I mean I've already talked about it for the phone anxiety thing, but the first hour was just talk therapy...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm...
Christine Schiefer: And didn't really get to the bottom of any... Anything. And then the hypnotherapy part was like kind of rushed. And I don't think I actually was hypnotized.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm...
Christine Schiefer: I was just kind of laying there. So I really... But I really want to... I wanna do a past life regression. That's what I want do.
Em Schulz: My mom has been hypnotized, uh, in like on stage for a... For a gimmick. So she was able...
Christine Schiefer: She would.
Em Schulz: She was down for that. And then my dad was hypnotized to quit smoking. And that worked.
Christine Schiefer: And the d... In the water, right? Or the lake.
Em Schulz: Oh, my mom... Oh, you're right. She was hypnotized for...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Was it...
Em Schulz: I think that was a Tony Robbins seminar. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, are you serious? Okay, because...
Em Schulz: I've told you that woman loves Anthony Robbins.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm... Oh, I'm...
Em Schulz: Excuse me. Anthony.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry, uh, Anthony. Yeah, no I... 'Cause I remember you were saying like, and then she had to carry a water bottle around with her for the rest of her life.
Em Schulz: Maybe she was hypnotized. Mom, weigh in. Umm. [laughter] It was because she was like one of those like crazed '90s moms who drink only Diet Coke exclusively.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so I guess they got her to feel like she constantly needs water and nothing else. And now she like truly has a full blown panic attack if she doesn't have water...
Christine Schiefer: Like slightly flawed, uh, situation, but yeah, I get it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It... It worked in the end, I guess. I mean, she doesn't wanna...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Drink Diet Coke anymore, but, umm... And then my... Yeah my... So if both of them can get hypnotized genetically, I feel like maybe I'm predisposed...
Christine Schiefer: Right...
Em Schulz: To also be like available to that, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I'm so curious. Like, I really... I really want... Do... Would you ever do like a past life regression?
Em Schulz: Yeah, for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Do you believe that? Like believe that it would work? Like...
Em Schulz: I don't know enough about it.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause my fear too is what if I'm just like inventing stuff in my own head? You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't know enough about it, but I would be down to try. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: I would love to do it. We should do it. Wouldn't that be a fun like YouTube series or something?
Em Schulz: Yes, every episode we just get hypnotized to do something else. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, how fun. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That would be very fun and pro... I don't know. Maybe problematic. I have no idea. I... I feel like, uh... I feel like there's a lot of people out there who kind of guffaw at hypnosis, but there are a lot of people in today's world who see it as... Which I think this is where I am currently. I... If there's more information I'm unaware of, then please check me. But, uh, the way I see it now is that it's just like another form of like guided meditation.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Interesting.
Em Schulz: Which... Which also wonder... Makes me wonder if I would be good at it because I'm really not... I don't like guided meditation. I can't really get myself to that headspace.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's hard. I... I struggle. I try to meditate and I'm... Umm, I really struggle with it, but I know I should be doing it more, especially for like lucid dreaming and all that. But, umm, yeah, I wonder, 'cause I mean, I know they kinda talk you into like, uh... A... Aren't your like brain waves supposed to change? I don't know. You tell me about hypnosis. I feel like I'm just taken over. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh I'll tell yah. So fun fact, one of the earliest references to hypnotism was in 3766 BC.
Christine Schiefer: I like how I was like, BC or AD?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then I was like, wait, that year has not even happened yet. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's pretty incredible though.
Em Schulz: It was this sorcerer who apparently... I don't know. I guess he could tell anyone that he hypno... I don't really understand. He stared into the eyes of lions, multiple lions, not just one, until they apparently fell under his influence and they would follow him around. And I'm like, "I think they were following you around for a different reason." But umm...
Christine Schiefer: You forgot that you had a sandwich in your pocket.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] You forgot that you're walking raw meat to them. Umm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're... You are the sandwich actually.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Good point.
Em Schulz: Umm, and also I feel like in the year 3766 BC, you could probably just tell someone that story at a bar and it not be true, but whatever.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Maybe it's... Maybe it is.
Christine Schiefer: At a bar, at a tavern.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, uh, anyway, one of the earliest references we have and hypnotism today is usually credited to a Dr. Franz Anton Mesmer.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And he was born in 1734, almost 300 years ago. And in 1759, when he's... Is that 25?
Christine Schiefer: It... Umm... Yes, sure.
Em Schulz: At 25? He began studying medicine at the University of Vienna. So seven years later, he publishes his thesis and it is called De planetarum influxu in corpus humanum.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine having to write everything in Latin. You're like, "It's already hard enough to write a book. Now I have to write it all in Latin."
Em Schulz: It's exhausting. I mean, in 2023 it is. I don't know if that [laughter] was just... If you just happened to just know it a lot better.
Christine Schiefer: I have to like tell the AI to translate this to Latin...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And it like takes like five minutes. It takes... Like such a pain in the ass.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's so... Apar... It does trans... I have the translation for us, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God.
Em Schulz: And it is the Influence of the Planets on the Human Body. Which is cool.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's really cool.
Em Schulz: It's giving astrology or something like that. I'm into it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for sure.
Em Schulz: So Franz thought that the moon and the planets influence our bodies and thus, if they were influencing our bodies, they could impact our health.
Christine Schiefer: I like that.
Em Schulz: See, yes, I'm with you. You don't... Don't...
Christine Schiefer: To an extent.
Em Schulz: Don't stray from that. 'Cause I know the way I was... I said that you were about to back away.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Down with that I also am down with that. But this is where I feel like I have to give some sort of like, almost like QAnon PSA of like the most insidious fringe beliefs...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh. Correct. Yep...
Em Schulz: Stem from something that's easy to swallow. And then it... It very gradually morphs into other things.
Christine Schiefer: That's such a wonderful way to put it. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because currently...
Christine Schiefer: And I think it is... It's... It's a slippery slope. Not to... I think we say that so often, but it's a slippery slope. Like to say, "Oh, the planets influence our health." And then it's like, Well, then you sort of start to stray from science or medicine. And it's like, "Okay, now we're getting in a dangerous zone." So I... I like it to an extent in a theoretical way so far.
Em Schulz: And keep in mind in the late 1700s, how much science and medicine was there that we still follow today to the T. So like he...
Christine Schiefer: Just the leeches. Well, at least for me.
Em Schulz: Interesting you mentioned that because here we go. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh.
Em Schulz: Uh, Franz thought that the moon and the planets influence our bodies and thus could impact our health. And it is a very old concept. I'm saying it as if he created this, but he was like... He wasn't blowing anyone's mind with this opinion of his back then.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm... There were many earlier historians, doctors, philosophers, who all thought the exact same thing that Franz did. Umm, and in the medieval era, many people also thought that the position of celestial bodies affected not just your health, but this also included your behavior and your morals. Your whole... Whole personality was based on the celestial bodies and their positions.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: This included Pliny the Elder who said that, I'm sorry, everybody, because the brain is the moistest organ in our body.
Christine Schiefer: Woof! Not the tongue?
Em Schulz: Uh... Fascinating.
Christine Schiefer: I guess not if you have dry mouth.
Em Schulz: I would've loved for you to be the one to raise your hand at his lecture to be like...
Christine Schiefer: I would've been kicked out instantly. First of all, they'd be like, Is she a woman? And also a witch? [laughter] But then also she keeps asking the dumbest questions.
Em Schulz: The best part is he could've like been sick that day and you could've gone up and like been as adjunct.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you would've been a witch and he would've been respected. That's crazy.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I know. So tragic how that happens.
Em Schulz: So Pliny the Elder was one of these people who thought, oh, the... The planets and the moon are affecting our personalities because... And an example of it is, since the brain is the moistest organ in our body, uh, it's somewhat like the... It's somewhat like the tides. And so if the moon affects the tides, it affects the... The tides of our body.
Christine Schiefer: That's always my argument. To be fair, Pliny.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would've said the same thing. 'Cause I've always said like... Well, not the moist part. I've never said that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I swear on my life. I've never said that. But I've always said like, well, the moon's... Like the tide... The moon and the tide are related. Correlated. We're 70% water.
Em Schulz: No it takes. It...
Christine Schiefer: Or something.
Em Schulz: I... I was literally about to say, "That makes perfect sense." 'Cause in my brain it totally does. And it.
Christine Schiefer: In your moist, moist brain, it totally does.
Em Schulz: In my big fat, moist, juicy brain. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Blegh.
Em Schulz: Umm, I... So you are not alone in thinking that. And truly, centuries ago, people were thinking the same thing. Umm, that our body is very much like the tides. And so the planets must affect that. Umm, Franz was one of those people where he was like, I love this idea. Moon's, planets affecting our bodies. Tides, yes, I'm down.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And he believed this included our bodily humors because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Just like how you said, we're 70% liquid, the bodily humors, if people don't know what those are, they're the four fluids that the ancient Greeks swore by that controlled our body.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And so if they're fluid and the tides are fluid, the moon must affect our humors.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Do you know anything about the humors?
Christine Schiefer: I know they're supposed to be in balance, and then they believe that sickness was when they came out of balance.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I know there was like a lot of bloodletting and that kind of thing. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: But I don't remember the... Is it bile? Is that one of them?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't remember the other three though.
Em Schulz: There was... So this was a theory of the ancient Greeks, the four bodily humors, especially Hippocrates. He was down with this and the four humors, which humor originally meant fluid.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And, uh, just fun fact, as you said, if they were in perfect balance, we were healthy. If they were outta whack, then we were not healthy.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, and each humor was connected not only to our health, but each one was connected to a personality trait of ours. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: There was yellow bile, which made us.
Christine Schiefer: Yuck.
Em Schulz: Choleric or irritable. There's blood, which is made you sanguine or positive, optimistic, happy. So it's like essentially anger and happiness.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Then there's phlegm, which is like easygoing and patient. And then black bile, which is melancholy or sadness.
Christine Schiefer: These are all such, gross things. I mean, blood is blood, but the rest, Ooh.
Em Schulz: Phlegm is a real special one.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Nasty.
Em Schulz: Also, health-wise, they each, uh, were... They all were associated with a different important organ of yours. So blood was your heart, phlegm was your brain, yellow bile was your liver, and black bile was your spleen.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: So if any of your humors were outta whack, it could do... It could have something to do with that organ that was leading to sickness.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, also a side effect was if your personality changed, if you had... If you were more irritable, you might have more yellow bile than normal or something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Excess bile.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Uh, and fun fact, a lot of old playwriting had characters where if you look at them as archetypes, they were actually just one of the four humors of the time. So there was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's cool.
Em Schulz: Angry people, happy people, sad people. Or like easygoing patient people. And the, people...
Christine Schiefer: So like in the writer's room, you just like, well, what is their motivation? And they'd be like, well, black bile.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's their motivation. [laughter] They're... They're sad.
Em Schulz: Well, apparently, a... A lot of Shakespeare's writing, if you look at all of the characters, all the people who ever caused drama were always more irritable or choleric. And so they were, uh, I guess they allegedly would have more yellow bile in their system.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Compared to other characters he wrote about.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Which is such a weird thought. But there was a whole article on like Shakespeare's character archetypes and the four bodily humors. It was very interesting.
Christine Schiefer: And that guy had a lot of stuff going on.
Em Schulz: And whoever wrote that article had a lot of time, by the way. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Seriously.
Em Schulz: Uh, these humors also dictated our personalities and our health. And early doctors had to figure out which of our humors were outta whack so that they could treat it. So if you had too much of one or too little of one, it would cause illness. And doctors had to balance your humors out to get you back to perfect health. And because humors were also labeled hot or cold at this time, uh, treatments would require the opposite to bring you back to homeostasis. So if your... Let's say your issue was blood too, too much blood or not enough blood. Blood was seen as hot and moist.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yum.
Em Schulz: Delicious. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: I like how it was seen as that, but like it is that.
Em Schulz: Well, so...
Christine Schiefer: Like we... We do know that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And what's interesting too, I do like this theory a lot. I don't fall for it totally. But I... I do, uh, think it's like creative is that each of the humors also had to do with a different element so that we're all connected in... In nature.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So blood is hot and moist. Like air. Phlegm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Is cold... Cold and moist like water. Yellow bile is hot and dry, like fire. And black bile is cold and dry like earth.
Christine Schiefer: That's so interesting. I do like, I... I... I appreciate the kind of creativity there.
Em Schulz: I also, I'm like, oh, that's an interesting way. If someone said that to me and I was stoned, I'd be like, "You fucking figured it out dude."
Christine Schiefer: For real. You're lucky I didn't take any gummies today.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: 'cause I would be like, probably, making a big problem for...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Us PR wise. [laughter] I'd be like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Actually let's bring leeches back.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] And honestly, I'm, sober but...
Em Schulz: The more you say leeches today...
Christine Schiefer: I don't hate it.
Em Schulz: Okay. So an example of this, of like how they would treat a humor based on, you know, its defining characters. Melancholy was often seen as cold and dry. So doctors would prescribe a hot and moist treatment. So a lot of times if you're melancholy, your insides were cold and dry, therefore you should have a hot and moist meal, like a hot juicy steak. Literally beef was the cure to melancholy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice.
Em Schulz: Which can confirm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Can confirm. Steak does not make me sad ever. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Good point.
Em Schulz: This is also as you've been saying, where we get bloodletting because if you had too much blood, I don't know how leeches are the opposite of hot and moist, but all right, I guess they just...
Christine Schiefer: Great point.
Em Schulz: Suck the blood right outta you.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of cold and moist, I would imagine.
Em Schulz: So now... Nowadays, this is all the four bodily humors is considered bunk science, but it was interestingly the first time that doctors actually saw illness as having direct natural causes. Up until this point, doctors truly just diagnosed like things happening based on supernatural problems.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's hard to believe.
Em Schulz: So. It was in the, I guess... Well, I don't, I don't know the timeline here, but a lot of people in the world of bodily humor era, umm, that was the game changer for doctors because they actually started listening to people when they said that they didn't feel good and they didn't just blame it on the, like, the cosmos.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, that's true. Like, it sounds so ridiculous now, but you're right. Like the fact that they're even saying it has to do with your physical ailments and your physical imbalance, like yeah, that's probably a huge leap forward.
Em Schulz: It had to be cause now people can try to figure out a way to solve it besides just pray over it or something.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: You know, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Or like burn them at the stake or something.
Em Schulz: Right. And the fine balance of... Umm, this is just another last fun fact because I was desperate to figure out why humor now means comedy.
Christine Schiefer: Great point.
Em Schulz: But the fine balance of humors and like the way that they were at equilibrium in your unique body that determined the condition of your body and your mind. And that was, you know, it was based on how your humor sat inside of you. So it has over time gone from just the condition of your body and mind. It has extended to your temporary state of body or mind. And so your humor can change or you can have a moment of humor. And so it was a... It ends up being like, you're.
Christine Schiefer: You're like in good humor. If you're...
Em Schulz: In good humor, your mind has...
Christine Schiefer: I love that actually.
Em Schulz: Is in that area currently.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty cool.
Em Schulz: So now there's your deep dive on the humors. Uh, in the 1700s, this concept of balancing humors was slowly kind of fading out of, you know, its big boom. Everyone was obsessed with it until 1700. But Franz Mesmer is still obsessed with this idea. Umm, he fully believed that people's health would be dependent on lunar cycles. He even mentioned this in his thesis. Umm, he once said that there was a, quote, "mutual influence between the heavenly bodies earth and animate bodies in a continuous fluid" and fluid being a humor.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And so he thought that all these things were working together. So if all of them were working together, but if something disrupted one of them, then everything else would go wrong and people would ultimately get sick. Does that make sense?
Christine Schiefer: It does.
Em Schulz: Okay. So in 1773, Franz was practicing as, uh, a doctor now, and he's treating this woman named Miss Oesterline.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Miss Oesterlin? Oesterlen, Oesterline. And she, in hindsight, most likely had some sort of like seizure disorder. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: She was suffering from convulsions, fainting, throwing up, headaches, and apparently also had some mania and delirium.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And Dr. Mesmer was determined to figure out that her... Or determined to prove that her body's connection to the universe had a block in it, a blockage. And that's what was causing this.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Keep in mind, this was the 1700s and bodily humors was... Has recently been all the right praise, so.
Christine Schiefer: Right right right right. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: So what he's saying at the time didn't sound so bananas.
Christine Schiefer: I will say like I... Again, like going off your kind of QAnon thing, like I feel like I could almost see this in some new agey groups, like...
Em Schulz: Fully.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like there's a blockage spiritually that's causing your sickness. You know, like I can kind of see where today people might still lean into that a little bit.
Em Schulz: I can fully see like going to get like my palm read and hearing that there's a blockage in the world and that's why I have...
Christine Schiefer: A spiritual blockage...
Em Schulz: Something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah. I remember when I was like diagnosed with Crohn's and I was just so sick, and like my aunts, two of them that are a little bit woo-woo, new agey and kind of went off the deep end would like send me these books on like, don't take medicine, like how to fix your... Like you're just not spiritually aligned. And first of all, it felt very victim blamey at the time.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I was like 18 and I... Or 19. And I was like, so you're saying like stop taking medicine, like this is something you need to resolve.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: With your spiritual side. And I'm like, first of all, that's very accusatory, but also that's really dangerous to be like disseminating that kind of thing.
Em Schulz: And how quickly that, like it went from something that kind of made sense to you denying medicine, you know, like, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And saying like, oh, don't trust them.
Em Schulz: And saying it's your fault, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It felt very, uh, targeted and like victim blamey. So I... I don't, yeah. I... So I do have a very kind of like...
Em Schulz: Personal connection to that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Like a personal irritation with that specifically.
Em Schulz: And this is where like for maybe the thousandth time, I don't know if I've said it directly into the podcast, but to people willing to listen to me face-to-face also, like everyone's got their own brand of wackadoo beliefs. I've got my own, like everyone's...
Christine Schiefer: For sure.
Em Schulz: Everyone thinks something that sounds crazy to other people.
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: Me included. But the second that you start using it to define a medical situation or you're exploiting somebody.
Christine Schiefer: Especially someone else's medical situation, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Especially, and when there's a power dynamic of I know something you don't know, and like trying to guide them towards something that there isn't any hard facts on, you know... I just... This... I'm about... I'm trying to keep myself from getting on a tangent about like, keep your beliefs to yourself if like, something as serious as...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Medicine is involved.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, don't force them on people who, you know, especially... I mean, it really can be dangerous. Like, if I just stopped taking medicine and started eating all these weird mushrooms they were sending me like.
Em Schulz: Well, there's a lot of people...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Out there in today's world who think like, I don't need a doctor. I'm just gonna pray that it goes well because...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: God wouldn't deny me, or that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's true. There's also so many angles to it. Like, it's not...
Em Schulz: So many.
Christine Schiefer: Always like new age, like woo woo. Like it can be like very religious or yeah. There's a lot of angles to this that can be scary.
Em Schulz: And I'm... I'm not pointing my finger at any particular belief system in this, but it's... It is... The point of this is it's can be very... A very slippery slope.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it's... Uh, I mean, it goes as quickly as maybe if you believe in, you know, the cosmos and there's some power out there and celestial bodies, and I mean, you're listening to And That's Why We Drink, probably at least 90% of you are... Have heard of astrology...
Christine Schiefer: Look at my shirt.
Em Schulz: And have had a deep dive.
Christine Schiefer: Look at my shirt. Gemini season. It says.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It literally says Gemini season. Someone made it for us.
Em Schulz: And to a lot of people, all of us who are down with astrology think that we're a little nutso. So I mean, like, we've all got our thing, but it's just it...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: It's so dangerous and it can be so slippery. So I just give that caveat for no reason, 'cause I don't think anyone here is pulling a Dr. Mesmer. However, I'm just saying it anyway, Dr. Mesmer was working on this woman. She was having, you know, some convulsions, which in today's world, if he pulled the stunt, it would be incredibly dangerous because she needed real help.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, he did... He did truly think he was helping her. And, uh, he thought, "Oh, well your body and your... And the universe have a blockage, and so I'm going to repair that for you. I will create artificial tides to heal you because the... The tides in you are not getting access to the universe since there's a blockage. So if I create the tides for you, or manually kickstart them to read the universe, maybe you will be healed."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Does that make sense?
Christine Schiefer: Sure. I mean, so as far as it can make sense. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So we're... We're declining quickly. Okay. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We are rapidly descending. Okay.
Em Schulz: So he... It... Like all it took was two bullet points. Like we were on-board and now we're off-board.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I had a feeling that might happen. Okay.
Em Schulz: So he is... He decided he's gonna make artificial tides for her. He's gonna put... You know, try to help... To help things move along nicely. So he puts a bunch of magnets all over her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Umm, because he says magnets are the natural conductors. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And I don't know how, and I don't know the rest of the story, but it seems that although she felt some like burning or prickling or whatever, she was magically cured.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Now what I think happened is that she was not cured, but she probably went to a different fucking doctor and he never heard from her again. So he assumed that she was fine.
Christine Schiefer: He was like, she must have be living her life and traveling the world. And she's like, "No, I just needed a second opinion."
Em Schulz: Or like, maybe she didn't have like a... Like a seizure for a while. And so it looked successful, you know, I don't know, but...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna take a shot in the dark having never been in a room with this guy and guess that he didn't cure her, but, okay. [laughter] Umm, so Franz is now like... I mean, his ego has ballooned. He saved this woman, right? So he's like, this is the golden ticket.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: This magnet thing is working. Umm, [laughter] so through his research, which by the way do your own research, right? He would really love the people who say that today.
Christine Schiefer: Love that. Love it. He loves it.
Em Schulz: Through his research, he claims that he could use magnets on non-metal elements. And... And what I... What I mean is people, fucking people.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, sure.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He thought...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: I can do it on people. I can heal animals. I can even like, make artificial tides in water with magnets, which riddle me that. Okay. Umm, he called this animal magnetism. This was opposed... [laughter] This is opposed to mineral magnetism, which is just fucking magnetism. Just how magnets work. He...
Christine Schiefer: Just how magnets work. Right.
Em Schulz: A metal and a metal. Yeah. So if it's not a metal and it's, you know, a living, breathing creature is involved in that category, it is animal magnetism.
Christine Schiefer: Is a animal. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Which is interesting because if he coined that term, then when I've heard people say raw animal magnetism.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: What does that mean?
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "Are we gonna say... " Okay, but I just googled it because I had that same thought. And there's a picture of like Mesmer and it says, animal magnetism, a presumed intangible or mysterious force that is said to influence human beings. So I wonder if it's like, oh, they have this like hypnotic draw almost like they can like charm you.
Em Schulz: It's how Holly defined Michael Scott so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. I mean, I... I, well, okay. I mean, I guess maybe he knew as much about science... Modern medicine as Mesmer did back in the 1700s. But...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: I mean, I've heard the phrase and so fun fact, this is where it comes from. I guess that that force.
Christine Schiefer: That's amazing.
Em Schulz: Is magnets or lust you pick. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Amazing.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Or both.
Em Schulz: Or both. So he thinks he's discovered animal magnetism, and he can do this by putting magnets on someone's body as a conductor for their tides. If they aren't working on their own. Well, soon he discovers that animal magnetism can be trained from within. So anyone can achieve animal magnetism. He... It's not just him. Anyone can learn this skill.
Christine Schiefer: So there is hope for me.
Em Schulz: There is hope. You could... You could figure out animal magnetism and be a healer. So...
Christine Schiefer: I take some lookout.
Em Schulz: I... You and I are about to have an... A moment together that others are not going to understand.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm. And my heart is beating very fast.
Christine Schiefer: Tell me.
Em Schulz: So what this guy thought, it's an inside joke, everybody, and unfortunately I cannot share it here.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, so he believes that he's discovered animal magnetism and he... Anyone can learn to do this. So you can learn to control the magnet... The magnetic field within yourself.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I was like, okay, there are several avenues this could be... Oh, quickly narrowing the possibility. Okay. Ding ding ding that was fast.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm sorry everybody. I would love to share it with you, but I... For reasons outside of my control.
Christine Schiefer: For safety... For safety reasons, for reasons outside our control, for privacy. But like, just trust us. It's...
Em Schulz: Trust us. I wish I could say something. I can't.
Christine Schiefer: It's a doo... It's a doozy. Maybe someday. Maybe someday.
Em Schulz: Maybe someday. Let's just say I know somebody who might be of this mindset and there's no need to go any further with that. That's all. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just trust... Trust us that it's an interesting place to be.
Em Schulz: It's a lot. And it's... It's... It's... Uh, yeah. Okay. Moving on quickly from this.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, let's just say someone I know and Franz Mesmer, I think would be best friends.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It seems like so far a lot of the phrasing and terminology and kind of...
Em Schulz: It gets worse Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Wackadoo wackadoo ideas. Okay, let's go. Let's go. Bring it on.
Em Schulz: It gets worse for Christine. Everybody else just like, buckle up for the general, you know.
Christine Schiefer: The general weirdness.
Em Schulz: The general gist of this, but trust me, I wish I could say something. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: There's layers here.
Em Schulz: So by controlling... He thought that anyone could learn this skill, and all you have to do is learn to control them... Your magnetic field and the tides within you, and you can magnetize people with just your hands.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my effing God! Did you know this before you did these notes?
Em Schulz: No. As I was reading this, I was really nervous to figure out how I was gonna say it, but...
Christine Schiefer: It's a little bit startling to hear.
Em Schulz: There's... There... There's... There's an... I can't even do it. Okay. Umm, so basically he had been using magnets up until this point now no magnets needed. He's learned how to do this just through the hands, so...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, he of course masters this before anybody else, and he begins healing patients with his hands to bring their tides to a balance, you know, for them. Uh, he would also sometimes use a metal wand that I don't understand this part. Apparently it would like... It... He would use it to like help him. I guess his hands weren't enough, but he would need this metal wand all of a sudden.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was like ex... Extra magnet just in case he is a extra tough patient.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah. So if someone needed extra help on a certain ailment or body part, he used the metal...
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe if they weren't like, fully convinced, he's like, "Well, let me get my magic wand." And they're like, "Oh, you have a magic wand. Now I'm convinced."
Em Schulz: It is interesting that nowadays magic is defined as mesmerizing and magicians use wands. But I don't know if there's a connection there but it's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Intriguing, I would argue Yes. With no basis in reality or fact.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Uh, so he... If he ever needed extra help, he would like, I guess, poke people with this. I don't fucking understand. [laughter] Anyway, this skill of essentially laying hands on somebody to heal them, this was called mesmerizing them.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: And that's where we get the... The phrase mesmerizing. Everyone for a good reason seemed iffy about this. His own alma maters were not like, supportive of this at all. Umm, other patients started turning on him.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: One of them kicked... One family of patients kicked him out of their house because he tried to restore their kid's eyesight with his hands. And I think they were like, this is too fucked up. And they just kicked him out 'cause quelle surprise she couldn't see afterwards. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Good instinct there. Ma... Parents.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Mom, dad, anyone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So in 1778, he's divorced. What?! And, uh, he's also... [laughter] I mean, he is also losing patients quickly.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "But look at all my magnets." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't even need them. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "You can keep the magnets. I don't want them." [laughter]
Em Schulz: So he's divorced and losing patients, and so I think he... I don't know if he's like a laughing stock or something or maybe just wants to start over, but he ends up heading to France. France fucking loves him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Patients lining out the door for him.
Christine Schiefer: Noooo.
Em Schulz: And so now of course, with this ego of his... I mean, describe a narcissist better please. Umm, he is now essentially thinking he's like this, like gift from God, you know, saving lives all around in...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ways that nobody else has ever been able to do before. And anyone can learn it if they just listen, if they just listen. Umm, so he started to... He started trying to come up with new tactics that had never been done before, umm, including magnetizing water, and then prescribing people to bathe in the water.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, now we're getting into some... It's seemingly like a...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: A cure-all situations.
Em Schulz: Apparently, and I don't know if this is like... If this was part of the prescription or if people were just like... He couldn't keep up with the patients coming through that he was just doing this en masse.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But he started magnetizing water and prescribing baths and multiple patients would bathe together.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. So like a spa, like a... One of those.
Em Schulz: Honestly if he had Zak Bagans' business acumen, he would've just created a fucking spa. Right? Like it would...
Christine Schiefer: A full on spa.
Em Schulz: But no, he just prescribed like group baths and people would apparently touch their fingers together. Then they would touch iron rods to parts of their bodies that were in pain or that had illness to them, and it would magnetize their bodies and bring their tides and their levels back to an equilibrium and heal them.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: At some point, I can't help explain this to you, like, it's just becomes... It doesn't make a lot... Enough sense for me to help.
Christine Schiefer: That's really devolve. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Except Franz could probably explain it to you very well, because these people are going nutso. For this guy, he even meets Marie Antoinette. He meets King Louis the 16th.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: He's friends with Mozart. And soon Franz is... Uh, I mean, you can probably guess where this is heading, but eventually his clientele is almost exclusively young women. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Woah Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Surprised and not surprised all at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: Animal magnetism is still this concept that's growing and growing and it finds its way into the occult community probably because it was fringe or, you know, I don't know, wayward people were interested in...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: In ways people weren't totally following.
Christine Schiefer: New ways of thinking. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So people start talking about animal magnetism. They start doing write-ups, and some say that, uh, being mesmerized makes people react in a lot of ways. You can start laughing outta nowhere. You can start sneezing outta nowhere. You can start dancing outta nowhere. And so to be mesmerized and all of a sudden you... You're doing all these things out of your control.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Very quickly, this leads to the beginnings of hypnosis. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So like, if you're mesmerized, your body just reacts in ways you can't control. The big one that circulated was that being mesmerized makes people fall asleep. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I love that. I mean, that's what I do. I do sleep hypnosis every night.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] I... Whatever it is, I do it every night and I love it.
Christine Schiefer: Works pretty damn well.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I gotta say. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So in the 1780s, other doctors are now magnetizing patients because it just took that whole nation by storm. Other doctors are trying whatever they can medically, and keep in mind, this is the 1780s. This is like... Only a few decades ago, they started like paying attention, or a few... A few centuries ago maybe. They finally started paying attention to like natural causes and ailments and they...
Christine Schiefer: So... And the physical body being part of the problem.
Em Schulz: They're like... Anything and everything is possible medically because they've only just started taking medicine seriously.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right.
Em Schulz: Like, in terms of the physical body. So they heard this one person has it all figured out, so everyone's trying it. So these other doctors are now magnetizing patients. And from this magnetic trances become a thing. There's... Ahh. Here's the situation. When you're in a magnetic trance, let's pretend you are... Hmm. Let's pretend you're the one who's the doctor, right?
Christine Schiefer: Sure. That's easy for me to pretend.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter] So you're the doctor, you know, in quotes obviously. Umm, but there's a doctor or a guy, he is known as the master. Gross.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, and he's the person who knows how to do magnetic trances. He's the one who can make people fall into a deep sleep. Eventually, you're trained so well that you can fall into a deep sleep or you can have someone fall into a deep sleep with just one touch, similar to hypnotists today.
Christine Schiefer: Mmh.
Em Schulz: And this deep sleep that you're putting someone in, when you put them in this deep sleep, it is a trance that they called being in crisis which, I'm always there. Wake me up.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. Yeah. I was like, "Isn't this supposed to help me out of a crisis?"
Em Schulz: So it's... It gets confusing, which is why I tried to like, give you a... A role to like pay attention to. So, if you're the master, your whole job is to put this other person in crisis.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: AKA deep sleep trance.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, the in-crisis person is still mentally active, but their body is asleep similar to being hypnotized today, and they can only be woken up by the master's voice, easy enough.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Now, even though that's essentially hypnotism today, this was one step kind of removed because the person that was in crisis was called a clairvoyant. And a clairvoyant then is different than what a clairvoyant is seen us today.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So a clairvoyant was the person that you are hypnotizing, you're putting in crisis, and they had a supernatural ability where while in a trance, they could see into bodies like a human X-ray.
Christine Schiefer: Okay?
Em Schulz: I know how QAnon this sounds. I'm so sorry. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, it does. Yeah. I mean, I think we can all agree for sure.
Em Schulz: So master hypnotizes, the clairvoyant who has this gift that when in trances can look into bodies and see what's wrong with them. So, essentially it's like the nurse to the doctor. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so they're like the assistant, almost.
Em Schulz: The assistant...
Christine Schiefer: Or like not to say a nurse is an assistant, but like they're in this scenario...
Em Schulz: Yes, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Like the... The second in command to like the...
Em Schulz: Yes, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, got you. Got you.
Em Schulz: So, if you were to put me in crisis, which you do every fucking Sunday, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say. [laughter] Umm, if I were.
Em Schulz: Okay. You're the master, I'm the clairvoyant, you've put me in a trance, and now I'm looking at the patient you have, and while I'm in a trance I'm able to see like, okay, so something's wrong with their heart, something's wrong with their brain, something's wrong here.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. So you're like the vessel...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: That like can then communicate that... That's fascinating and bananas.
Em Schulz: So while in crisis, while I'm in crisis as the clairvoyant, you, the master would have me go looking through your clientele of sick people. I'd run my hands over them to find their illness, and eventually you would wake me up, ask me what happened. We'd put a report together and you would treat the sick people accordingly.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And the clairvoyants, when they would wake up, they would say they couldn't remember anything. They were truly in a trance. Umm, keep in mind this feels really like a huge gimmick to me. I mean, obviously in a way, but like... I feel like if the clairvoyant doesn't even remember what they, said.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: How were they accurately reporting what they saw? Unless the doctor is just putting someone in a random trance, deciding on his own what's going on, and then wakes the clairvoyant up and goes, "Oh, you told me all this stuff."
Christine Schiefer: And feeding the... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That seems shady...
Em Schulz: It's a really weird...
Christine Schiefer: Without further explanation.
Em Schulz: It's a really weird power dynamic of like, I'm letting you feel involved, but I'm just deciding without having done anything or you having done anything.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: What I'm gonna do with this patient. It's just like a weird...
Christine Schiefer: And you're not really involved. You're just like a tool for me. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It... It feels like...
Christine Schiefer: It's a little weird.
Em Schulz: A weird extra step when like, you could just say like...
Christine Schiefer: It does. I wonder why he didn't just, well, I mean, maybe he really was getting them to say things.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Otherwise I don't see why he... He would do it.
Em Schulz: Uh, what time is it? It's time to worry because, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: A lot of... A lot of sources say that the...
Christine Schiefer: Wait my alarm hasn't gone off yet. [laughter] It goes off every 20 minutes. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So.
Christine Schiefer: But don't worry, I'm always ready to worry.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sources say that the best clairvoyants were young women. So chances are he was...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: You... Putting these women into trances or putting them into a deep sleep, doing whatever he wanted, snapping his finger, waking them up and being like, you were such a big, help in my life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like helping me determine what's wrong with my patients. So that could be another thing that happened.
Christine Schiefer: Oof. Little uncomfortable. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: At any rate, more and more doctors are becoming masters of this ability, where they can put clairvoyants into trances to help them. They believe that this happens because their patients or their clairvoyants have a sixth sense in their solar plexus. And when we're in a trance and our usual senses are not activated, the solar plexus goes into hyperdrive and can see and hear things you normally can't. It's like the soul essentially becomes more active, I guess. And that's how you're able to see things in a trance or...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, like open a channel that you usually can't access.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So. Eventually this whole concept spirals more and more, and doctors think that they can train their animal magnetism, not just to... It's kind of like they're cutting out the middleman now. So not only... Originally they were, umm, putting clairvoyants into a trance, and then I think they realized that's one step too much. We're hiring extra people that we don't need. Snip, snip, snip cut the middleman out. I can actually just do this myself, and so I can put myself...
Christine Schiefer: Got it...
Em Schulz: Into, I don't know if it's essentially a trance, but you can train your animal magnetism to feel other's illnesses, essentially like an empathy skill.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: And I mean, I have to be honest here, like, this is where I get a little like eee because...
Em Schulz: Like I...
Christine Schiefer: This is where? Well, specifically me, because I feel like I...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Have done, have like, studied Reiki and gotten like through I think three levels of certification. And so I know like, this probably kind of goes into that. Like, oh, I can feel where the pain is and adjust it. Like I can see where the problematic stuff can kind of start to. So I don't know, maybe I'll do a little self-analysis later and, uh, think about it.
Em Schulz: Well, here's my... Here's my favorite thing specifically about you, because, uh, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I love this segment...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay...
Em Schulz: It happens once a week, folks. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It happens like... Actually it happens like once a day. I was gonna say never. But then I was like, no, Em is always saying nice things about me.
Em Schulz: I feel like one of the least attractive qualities in the like, umm, like spiritual industry or field or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or in the community is when I am... I wanna learn more about something and I'm a willing volunteer and I go somewhere and I... I am agreeing to a service.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And I can tell right off the bat that it is not genuine or it is not authentic and people are exploiting me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah sure.
Em Schulz: And my curiosity. One of my favorite things about you is anytime I've ever asked you to do Reiki or Akashic records for me, you go on this like 20 minute tirade every time where you're like, I don't know if it's real, whatever I'm telling you, take it with a grain of salt.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I... Okay.
Em Schulz: I'm trying my best.
Christine Schiefer: That's fair. I do. You're right. I do. And I... And when I do Reiki also, I always ask for permission and say like, listen...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: This isn't meant to like medically heal you. I just... It's something I'm, I don't know...
Em Schulz: I'm literally your best friend and you ask my permission, like 10 lawyers are in the room. Like, you are so scared of anyone reading your intentions wrong. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That's exactly it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And so I think the difference... I think just like how you said, like there's levels to all of this where...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: We can see things going on in today's world happening here.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I... I fully am a believer of that intent and, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Fair...
Em Schulz: And directness are...
Christine Schiefer: And transparency, like to be transparent enough.
Em Schulz: Full transparency...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And to not say...
Em Schulz: Meanwhile...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, forget medicine and science. Do this instead. Like, I would never suggest someone do Reiki and not follow up with their primary care or their doctor. Like that is not my intention you know?
Em Schulz: No I... I mean I also, this is just like, like a... A preferred interest, but if I am going to do any spiritual work with somebody, I love when they're... This... I... Please understand how I'm saying this. I love when they have a chronic illness or like understand like there's... There's a need for true medicine on top of what we're doing. And there's...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. There's like a an appreciation for...
Em Schulz: An appreciation. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: For the... Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Not like, I love that you're chronically ill, like, you know...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Not like the close-mindedness. Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Like, I appreciate that there's people out there who are thinking like, I am literally, I have 10 doctor's appointments this week, but yes, let me definitely do an Akashic reading because at the very end of the day, it could be fun, but.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know, or... Or... Or it could just be... I don't know.
Em Schulz: Could be random. I don't know... I think...
Christine Schiefer: Like on the radar.
Em Schulz: I think your... Your worries about being clumped in with them, it is not worth the worry.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I... Yeah, thank you.
Em Schulz: Umm, because these people are saying, I will cure your blindness. You know, like it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: Which like, first of all, you don't even... You shouldn't... You shouldn't have to cure that. Like it's... It's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, first of all, yeah, there's a lot, again, layers, layers, layers.
Em Schulz: But for so many... For so many people of this time, especially in a time when, let's get into it, folks, put the patriarchy and the power dynamic of a man who can only be a doctor, a man telling you what's going on. If you don't come back to him, he's probably going to assume that it was just a success and he healed you. And on top of that, like you weren't allowed to... Even today, women can't second guess men or authority...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In a lot of spaces. And so I feel like if a doctor looked at you and with enough confidence waved his hands and said, you're cured, a lot of people would believe it. And maybe it's the power of suggestion, maybe one in a thousand it actually works on, but you know, it's... Anyway, I'm going off on my own tirade. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm... I'm with your tangent. I just don't wanna extend it in a whole another direction. So keep my mouth shut.
Em Schulz: No, I'm... I... I'm trying to keep my mouth shut, and yet I... I'm hosting a podcast right now, so, umm...
Christine Schiefer: It's very hard. It's very hard.
Em Schulz: It's a tough... A tough cookie. Anyway. Doctors, not like Christine in the spiritual realm.
Christine Schiefer: Ha!
Em Schulz: Uh, they're all now be deciding that they're empaths and they can... Which is hysterical to me that, you know, just like in such a power dominated space, they're like, oh, now I'm an empath. And I can understand...
Christine Schiefer: I love when people decide they're empaths. I think it's very fun for everybody. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. Exactly. So now they're like, we don't need the magnets. We don't need our hands. We don't need clairvoyants. All we have to do is just like, sit with ourselves and wear empaths and we can just feel what's wrong with you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And if you can feel how your patients feel, then you can diagnose them more accurately, the irony. And this is apparently called doubling. So soon, doctors said that they could go into trances, they could double without even touching somebody to, you know, make anyone fall asleep, no need for clairvoyants. Umm, and they could just connect with another body's magnetic fields and tides and diagnose them immediately. So, very astral vibes, right?
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Soon people are choosing to put themselves into trances to connect with others. And this morphs into medium work. So it's almost like the clairvoyants decided they were gonna go get their own job. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, there was one actually named Mademoiselle Gilbert Rochette, and she was able to go into her own magnetic sleeps where she would communicate with spirits and angels and all this. And this again, seems woo woo, but how many people out there are mediums who can connect with spirits, like... And people I back and believe too, by the way...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Like, I'm not saying mediums are woo woo, but to your... The point that you made earlier, there are some people that just exploit the community. So...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: Take it where you will. Animal magnetism stays popular throughout the 19th century and masters during this time, uh, start writing out some best practices, finally. [laughter] And do you wanna take a shot in the dark? Uh, what it takes to be a master who is able to be an empath and do trance work and heal people?
Christine Schiefer: You probably have to pay like, umm, 65 installments of 9.99, and get a mail-in certificate? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Correspondence school?
Em Schulz: Even better and even less surprising. You have to be a man.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: You have to be 25 to 50.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Uh, you have to be in good health with, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: With... Can you believe it? A lot of self-confidence.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so I'm none of those things. Let's be clear. [laughter] Gotcha. Not one. Not a one.
Em Schulz: So over time, they start saying that, uh, it's a master's will that influences magnetic tides. So now they're essentially God, right? Like they're...
Christine Schiefer: Huh, okay.
Em Schulz: Doing deity work. It seems. One guy named Kluge, Kluge, uh, he starts looking into mesmerizing and even defines them by stages. So now there are stages of mesmerizing you can get as a patient.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So stages one through three, I guess easy to hard, whatever. Umm, those stages one through three are when you can influence a patient's tides and they will feel side effects of it. Like, uh, sweating, drowsiness. They'll maybe feel like their skin... Like a little rash. Then there's stages four through six where patients will seem alert during this... During their doctor appointment, but they're essentially hypnotized. And this is called sleep wake when you look awake, but you're asleep.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So you're like...
Em Schulz: Kind of like...
Christine Schiefer: You're hypnotized.
Em Schulz: Hypnotized, like at... At a hypnosis show and everyone's sitting there and they look totally fine, but they've been hypnotized.
Christine Schiefer: They look... They're acting weird, okay?
Em Schulz: But they're acting a little odd. So to be able to sleep wake, it actually took a patient many sessions to master that skill and it even took even more time for them to be able to remember what happened while they were asleep. So it almost now feels like this like weird package you can get like a plan or something where it's like, oh well if...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they wanna upgrade you. Like platinum level plan.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like if you wanna come in and we'll do like stage one, you'll feel a little sleepy afterwards, but you know, we'll influence your magnetic tides and you'll feel a little better.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Or we can go to stage four through six and not only will you be seemingly awake, but maybe one day you can even remember what happened to you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and the... I mean the expense well, we do offer a payment plan and can you really put a price on, you know...
Em Schulz: And since we're in the States...
Christine Schiefer: Feeling the best.
Em Schulz: The insurance is just not gonna cover it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, certainly not. What insurance? Let's start there.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So patients... Uh, these patients who I guess if you... I don't think there actually was like a package, but in this metaphor we've got working on here. Uh, if a patient was able to be mesmerized into stage four through six, where they are just like, almost a seemingly fully, you know, a fully awake person...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like ascended to. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They could also learn to stomach see?
Christine Schiefer: Huh?
Em Schulz: Which is when... This is so weird. I don't... What a weird thing. It's really devolving now where stomach seeing, I don't even know how this helps you. There's not even a medical reason for this, but apparently you can like learn to stomach see, which means a doctor can put an item next to your stomach and with your eyes closed, you know what they put next to your stomach. So what the fuck is that about? That's, can you imagine if I went to the doctor talking about my fucking heart condition and they were like, but your tummy knows that a deck of cards is sitting next to it, doesn't it? Like...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "Let me see your tummy and what card am I holding up?"
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Get the fuck out of here."
Christine Schiefer: That is bizarre. I mean, okay, here's what I will say, which... This is not in defense of this, umm, absolutely batshit crazy situation you're talking about, but I do know that there is quite a bit of gray matter in our guts that are, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Linked to our brain, basically...
Em Schulz: Don't tell any of them that because they'll lose their mind.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. But apparently that's a real thing that, umm, there is gray matter in your, uh, in your insides. Umm.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: That they're the same as what's in our actual moist, moist brains.
Em Schulz: So...
Em Schulz: Our moist, moist tummies are also...
Christine Schiefer: They got a little thinking going on down there.
Em Schulz: They're so smart. That's how my tummy has excellent taste.
Christine Schiefer: You know when they say like your gut... Like follow your gut like that there's actual...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Gray matter down there.
Em Schulz: I would love to see us like a... Like a res... A research paper on like, not... I don't want anyone to be put in life threatening situations, but like, however you could like replicate them having a gut feeling or something. Like, it would be so interesting to see if the gray matter's affected or the cause of that at all.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know, and I wonder, I feel like, umm... I feel like I need to look this up, so... Because I don't wanna like just be putting out like totally fake news. Umm, but I'm pretty sure that's a real thing the gut kind of connection.
Em Schulz: Even if it's not real... Even if it's not real. This is something we should add to our, umm, table of contents for the next time we're in the room together. And you're a little stoney baloney.
Christine Schiefer: Totally. Talk about the brain in my stomach. And then you can hold up a deck of cards.
Em Schulz: And then we can use our stomachs and eat something. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That sandwich that we were talking about earlier, I've been thinking about it this whole time.
Em Schulz: Well apparently you could also stomach hear and, uh, your stomach could hear what the master was whispering into your belly, which like, couldn't you just like hear. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Just hear what they were whispering.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: It makes you remind me of it when I was pregnant. And I'm like, don't fucking talk to my stomach. You freaks.
Em Schulz: I talked to your tummy and there was nothing you could do about it.
Christine Schiefer: You did, but not like just strange men who were 25 to 50, you know.
Em Schulz: Ohh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, stop talking to my child.
Em Schulz: Understood. I was like, yo, you definitely heard me say some shit to your kid.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh yeah. And she heard it too. She's still thinking about it.
Em Schulz: I know. That's why she like, kind of gives me that like stank face whenever I show up she's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Oh they... Uh, I...
Em Schulz: She's like, What are you doing here?
Christine Schiefer: Well, to be fair, you were like demanding she get out right now and, umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She didn't, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she's stubborn. Interesting. Couldn't get... Couldn't have gotten that from Christine. No way.
Christine Schiefer: Just quick.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Quick fact from a website that I have not vetted, but is called Micronutrient Solutions, umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's either really useful or not at all.
Christine Schiefer: Or like totally fake. Yeah. Umm, but they are quoting a professor of Biobehavioral sciences at the University of California, umm, who says, "The system is way too complicated to have evolved only to make sure things move out of your colon. A big part of our emotions are probably influenced by the nerves in our gut and the gut compromising..." Nope. Well, mine is compromising myself and my health. [laughter] But, "the gut comprising the esophagus, stomach and intestines is the only organ in the body that it has its own nervous system allowing it to function independently from the brain. Known to scientists as the gut brain, it is made up of 100 million neurons on the wall of the small intestine and around the spinal cord". So there is like, uh, some... You know, this lack of clarity on like, what does it actually do and mean? So maybe... Maybe we will get some studies in the coming decades, but, umm...
Em Schulz: Isn't it crazy?
Christine Schiefer: I always thought that was so fascinating.
Em Schulz: It's crazy in 2023 that our bodies are still a goddamn mystery in a lot of ways.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, think about it, that moist brain of ours, all we know is it's moist. Nobody's learned anything else about it, ever.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's true. And.
Christine Schiefer: That's it.
Em Schulz: Funky stuff. Well...
Christine Schiefer: I know that... I know that's not true guys. I just...
Em Schulz: Apparently...
Christine Schiefer: I felt like... Felt like being dramatic.
Em Schulz: I... Well, I was on board fully.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Uh, apparently we can now stomach see and stomach hear. I don't know how that helps at all. I don't know why doctors are even teaching us to do that. Umm... [laughter] But these talents ended up being later added to the line of gimmicks that fraudulent mediums would use on people because just like those other stories I've talked about where someone was lying in bed, but they knew what happened three towns over, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Or they could read an unsealed envelope. It's the same kind of thing.
Christine Schiefer: Great point. Okay.
Em Schulz: So umm, and I don't know if these patients like were in on the joke. I have no idea how that worked. All I... I saw stomach seeing and stomach hearing and needed to address it. So...
Christine Schiefer: We needed to.
Em Schulz: So this whole time mesmerism was... Was in, umm, France and Germany until the 19th century, but then it moved to Britain and the US and it continues to grow to a point where at one... At one point early on Boston had over 200 mesmerists in the city alone. So it's like.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Doctors are taking this thing and flying with it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No shit.
Em Schulz: And the... The term hypnosis was originally created by James Braid. It comes from the Greek word sleep, and it became a synonym for being mesmerized. Uh, and soon hypnotism was being tested in all fields of medicine. It was actually used during surgery during an... Or it was used during surgery before anesthesia. And somehow...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Somehow it actually worked sometimes, which is so freaky to me. Umm, patients would have no pain or memory of an operation. I don't know how that fucking works. The power of suggestion, I guess. Or maybe there was one person who was just really sleepy and like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean maybe it was like, you know, that they talk about, umm, being able to... Like, if you're put in a trance. Okay, and this is where I'm gonna go off the wall even further, which I know none of us were expecting that we would take this even more off the wall crazy than it already is.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Okay. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But, you know, I have heard stories about people who have learned astral projection and are able to, in instances of extreme pain, like almost like leave their body like to... To like leave the physical sensations behind.
Em Schulz: And honestly, I... As I said, both my parents have been hypnotized. I don't know how, and I... Not that I'm like the world's biggest skeptic at all, and I'm actually much more of a... A believer in this kind of stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But I'm aware that I have no idea how it works, if it works or if I'm being completely duped. But I'm not totally against the idea of just having an out-of-body experience or being able to tap yourself out of a bad situation or...
Christine Schiefer: Or like putting... Putting your... Yourself in like a... A brainwave state where you're like much more relaxed or much more...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I think, like, I... I think hypnotism can change your... Your brainwave state. So I don't know, it's possible.
Em Schulz: I mean, in today's world, if it's seen as, like, a guided meditation, maybe these people just knew how to be really fucking, like, zen back then, like, maybe...
Christine Schiefer: I wish I could do that.
Em Schulz: Maybe someone just was really all about mindfulness before it was a thing and, like, just was able to tap out. Or, like, all I know is I fucking wish they taught me that before my stupid vein surgery, I would've loved that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was thinking about you when I heard that episode about the... The woman who was able to do that. 'Cause I was like, man, that would've been nice for Em to figure out.
Em Schulz: It would've been so nice. And, like, the girl who apparently slept through it before me, I'm like, were you a...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe she was...
Em Schulz: Were you mesmerized?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: So hypnotherapy is now, uh, really only exclusively used in mental health fields, and even then, it's still controversial, but, uh, Freud loved hypnotherapy if that gives you a non-ringing endorsement.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, wow, wow.
Em Schulz: Uh, he particularly loved to use hypnotherapy on women dealing with hysteria, so...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: So, there you have that.
Christine Schiefer: So, there we have it.
Em Schulz: Uh, it also became used for bringing back old memories to process trauma. And just to tie in another episode, uh, hypnotherapy was famously used in the Barney and Betty Hill abduction case, which was episode 49.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Episode 49, my lucky number.
Em Schulz: Did I do that on purpose? Someone listen to episode 49 and tell me if that happened, umm...
Christine Schiefer: You let me know, I probably mentioned that it was my favorite number. It...
Em Schulz: Had to.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like something I would've said.
Em Schulz: Today, it is sometimes used to relieve anxiety, depression, PTSD. As I said earlier, it's now more about mindfulness or, umm, meditating. Uh, it can also be used to stop addictive behaviors such as cigarettes or to try to start behaviors like dieting, which again, is very controversial, and it is suggested that if you're going to use hypnotherapy for anything like dieting or things that could, you know, be damaging to your body. Umm, it's best to improve your perception of your body versus having someone hypnotize you to do an action on your body.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 100%.
Em Schulz: So P... PSA fully, like, we're not saying go get hypnotized and...
Christine Schiefer: Hell no.
Em Schulz: Do a crash diet. Umm, and you know what? Maybe someone has done it out there and it's worked but, you know, that's not my place to say.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't... It doesn't seem like something we should endorse.
Em Schulz: People also use it for past life regressions, as Christine said earlier. And some people believe that self-hypnosis is possible and can bring us to other realms or to help us communicate with other worldly beings, which we are both very pro medium and, uh, those who have the gift, I don't know if you have to go into a self-hypnosis, but apparently that's one way to do it, just for some people.
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you, I actually, like, that I can kinda believe. 'Cause I'm like, I know that if you go into a deep state of meditation, I mean, I believe that you can... [laughter] I mean, I probably sound so wackadoo, but I believe that you're... It's possible to reach your... A higher self or reach your spirit guides. So I mean...
Em Schulz: I mean I... I'm...
Christine Schiefer: There's parts of this that I'm kind of like, okay, I could get on board with that.
Em Schulz: I mean, there's a reason that we're friends, it's because our wackadoos, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: See each other, but...
Christine Schiefer: They see each other and they hold hands.
Em Schulz: I mean, I very much, uh, am on board with you that I think, again, I, this is, I... I, find myself labeling hypnosis or whatever, you know, trance work is as a type of mindfulness or, umm, a good intentional spiritual communication or in a, trying to do, like, self-work on improving yourself or ascending in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Whatever it is, I feel like if it's done with good intentions and you really are trying to respect the process of it and you're not exploiting people in the process...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Fucking go for it. Like, if it works for you...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely...
Em Schulz: Fucking go for it for it.
Christine Schiefer: If you feel safe and comfortable and excited to try it, why not? You know?
Em Schulz: And, uh, I don't have to tell anyone here because you're already listening to, And That's Why We Drink. I... [chuckle] But if you would like to learn more about hypnosis, there are plenty of sources for you, lots of books, lots of, all sorts of good stuff. And if you have a... A hypnosis story you'd like to share, we would love to hear it. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait, actually folks, if... I would love to hear. Yeah, can we request that?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe for, umm, not August 1st, 'cause apparently we're recording that tomorrow, so that. Certainly no...
Em Schulz: Good to know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Won't work. Umm, but maybe for, uh, for September.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, and just if you would email us your hypnosis stories, we would love to hear it and we'd love to hear how many of them are successful and how many of them are not. And if you've gotta hopefully...
Christine Schiefer: I'd love to know also like what the experience...
Em Schulz: Good story.
Christine Schiefer: Is like, or like, if... If you, umm, if... If it worked on you, if you felt like it was effective for a certain reason...
Em Schulz: I... I mean, I... I also...
Christine Schiefer: Just selfishly I'd love to know.
Em Schulz: I also do think that, umm, hypnosis is, I... I... I've never had it done to me, but I like to believe that it is a helpful tool in the world of processing trauma, umm, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: I've never...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: I've never done it, but a lot of people have said...
Christine Schiefer: With... With the right provider. With the right provider, I will say.
Em Schulz: Yes. Not with a Dr Frank Mesmer, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Or not, like, your YouTube, I mean, I know you...
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I've done... I've done YouTube, like, self hypnosis, which is pretty cool, umm, but I will say, like, I don't...
Em Schulz: I didn't even know if that was a thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God, I've done a... A self hypnosis past life regression, but I was about half an hour in and I was like... I swear to God, Em, I was, like, in it and then Gio started barking like crazy and I don't think... Like, my heart, like, fell out of my... Into my butt. I was so scared.
Em Schulz: And you, but you can just wake up out of it if you need to?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I was so startled that I was like, God dammit, and now every time I wanna do and I'm like, Gio's just gonna bark again and scare the absolute shit outta me, so...
Em Schulz: Mmh.
Christine Schiefer: One day I'll do one. But I've had friends who've done them on YouTube, like with... With some success. So, you know, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I've had... I've only known one person to do hypnosis as part of their trauma work and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Interesting.
Em Schulz: And they said that it... It did help. I don't think they, I... I... I feel like movies have really ruined our perception of what hypnosis looks like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it seems like they were just really relaxed and able to just kind of tap into things that they're usually building walls up to and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, so it was, if... If it's helpful for you in that way too I would... I'm not endorsing it till I go do it. But if it feels like something you would be interested in...
Christine Schiefer: Agreed.
Em Schulz: In trying for yourself then it's available to you.
Christine Schiefer: And I... Like, like, I've been... I've been doing, umm, some trauma work as well, and the counselor I'm seeing, uh, did a hypno-regression on me. And I guess maybe that was hypnotherapy, it was... It was over Zoom, so I feel like it wasn't as like.
Em Schulz: Yeah, intimate.
Christine Schiefer: That trad... Yeah, that intimate, like that traditional like you're laying down and, you know. Umm, but it was pretty, uh, insightful and I really feel like I was able to jump back to things that happened that A, I didn't think were related, but it turns out... Like to this... This thing I'm trying to work through. And then I was like... Afterward I was like, "Oh my God." Like it never clicked that that thing that happened when I was 10, like has something to do with this current trauma.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know what I mean? Like, it's... It was really cool. So I... I found that very effective. I didn't feel necessarily like I was like hypnotized, but maybe I was, I don't know. It was a hypno regression. I don't know what that is about. But, umm...
Em Schulz: If you were also...
Christine Schiefer: There was stuff I pulled up and I didn't really consciously remember it and I just said it out loud and then I... Later I was like, Oh my God, I completely had forgotten that ever even happened. Like...
Em Schulz: It was really cool.
Christine Schiefer: It was fascinating. Yeah. It was really cool.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also, if you happen to be someone who has... Like, if you're on the other side, if you are the hypnotist.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: I would love to know if...
Christine Schiefer: Oh please.
Em Schulz: If I'm... Either mess something up or if there's more to it. 'Cause I'd love to know if there's like levels to this. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Is there like a light hypnosis you can like, test out before you, like really agree to like a full in-depth situation? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Is... Is there like best practices that people should look for?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or try to follow? Yeah. I mean, I'm... I'm also like so intrigued by this topic, but I'm like you, where it's sort of like, kind of new to... To me, I don't know too much.
Em Schulz: It's... It's also, I know we've talked about it already, like, like 'till we're blue in the face, but it is also one of those topics where I have to hold a mirror up to myself from like, I have a lot of particular beliefs and how quickly could I myself devolve into falling for...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Some deeper prob... More problematic stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Because if... Like when I started this topic, I was like, I'm fully fucking on board.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: This is the best thing I've ever even seen. And I'm totally... I mean, hello. Like, we're like all about the astrology. We're all about the... The planets and the tides and... And so all it took was one sentence for me to go, oh. Like if I were a little less able to critically think it... This could be a disaster for me. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I... Umm, just another PSA that please be careful out there. And if you are someone who is practicing medicine on people and it is not a documented medicine or documented practice and others are maybe not, uh, very proud of it or are scared of it or are unsure of it, or they can't go for second opinions easily, maybe second guess if you should be doing it, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Or steering them in a certain direction.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah. I... That's a great point. Umm, it's kind of a... It's a lot of... A lot of landmines to walk through, you know, it's like...
Em Schulz: It's a dangerous episode everybody. I'm trying real hard over here to...
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: To make sure I'm making my points clear.
Christine Schiefer: We've definitely covered more, umm, what do you call it? More, umm, loaded topics for sure. But this definitely does kind of, umm... Kind of edge on onto the... The, the scary QAnony type stuff. So...
Em Schulz: Maybe everyone do a little self-work and just make sure that we're in... In tip top shape when it comes to just analyzing what's around us.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the best way to do it. Just keep your eyes open unless you're being hypnotized.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Because I know you have to close them. I don't know how it works.
Em Schulz: Keep them closed.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, anyway, please take me away before I get on my soapbox again, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Em, that was a really good story.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: That was really good. I like... I... When you said it at first, I was like, haven't you covered this? But like, no, I think we just talked about it on Rituals a little bit, but like.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Never really delved into it, so I'm... I thought you did a great job.
Em Schulz: It was, uh, I... I don't think I've ever covered a hypnotist yet. I also would like to cover our favorite Mr. Crentist, Creston whatever it is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Crentist.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Crentist the dentist.
Christine Schiefer: The great... The great.
Em Schulz: Creston.
Christine Schiefer: Kermit. Oh, Creston. Umm, like, I really can't get it right. Umm, Kermit. I... Nevermind. Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, like, I'm... It's starting to click that all of these sound way too similar. No.
Em Schulz: It's Creston, Crentist, Kermit, then Christine.
Christine Schiefer: And Chremit. Oh, wait, did you say that?
Em Schulz: And Chremit, I don't even know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So I am very excited about this topic. Umm, it is one that I've been hoping to do for months, maybe years. And a couple months ago, Eva sent me an article on Medium, and I wanna give it a shout out because first of all, like... I'm like every other embarrassing, I'm... I'm like every other millennial in the embarrassing way that sometimes I will like see a news article and I'll like kind of skim it and then be like, oh, I read this article, you know.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But this one, like, I fucking read it. Like, I sat there probably for 45 minutes to an hour and like really like dug into all the details. And it is an article on Medium by, uh, Kyra Dempsey is the author. And, umm... And so Kyra Dempsey is actually an analyzer of plane. Oh, I haven't even told you this topic yet. Huh? Okay.
Em Schulz: I have no idea what's going on.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. Okay. Let me tell you what we're covering today. We are covering the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.
Em Schulz: Oh, excellent.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. And...
Em Schulz: Okay, I'm so glad because I don't know enough about this and it's one of those topics that I have always kind of smile and nodded with people and like, hope that they just stopped talking about it before I looked like an idiot.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And it... It happened during a time we were probably, we like, I don't know, in college and grad school.
Em Schulz: College. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like trying to work, trying to be like... Didn't have cable, didn't have nice internet. Like we were probably just out of the loop, you know? Uh, at least that's what I tell myself. But it is something I'd always kind of known about on the periphery and always been really interested in. And so when Eva sent me this, she just like knows me so well. She's like, "Oh, I just read this interesting article." And I was like... I didn't text her back for like almost an hour. And then I was like, "Oh my God, I just read the whole thing. I'm obsessed." And then I sent the article to our researcher and said, "Umm, let's fucking cover this." Like, I... I am... I'm really amped about it. Umm, and the reason I brought up, uh, Kyra Dempsey's Medium article, that's the one that I read. And, uh, uh, according to her, uh, bio on Medium, she is an analyzer of plane crashes.
Em Schulz: Holy crap. That's a very specific but important job.
Christine Schiefer: And can I mention too that like, I didn't know that when I read this article, but I was like, damn this person is doing the most in-depth and comprehensive and like able to understand for a layperson job at this article. And like, of course now I'm looking at it, I'm like, oh, of course they... They do this for a living. Like, but that just adds more credence to this whole article.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: I... I think she did like an incredible job. So a lot of the information comes from that. Umm, but there have been like some documentaries and other things. Umm, I listened to a podcast called, uh, Black Box Down, which is just about true crime in the sky. And I was like...
Em Schulz: Forget it.
Christine Schiefer: I can't listen to more than one episode of that. 'Cause I think I'm gonna freak myself the F out.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, that's a bold move when all we do is fly.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: That's...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Crazy.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And sometimes I do venture into that space when I'm feeling brave and then I'm like, why am I doing this to myself? I leave tomorrow.
Em Schulz: Brave or delusional?
Christine Schiefer: Brave is incorrect term and you are correct to call me on that. So not brave, [laughter] just like feeling, umm, what's the word? Feeling? Umm, like caution... Throwing caution to the winds. Like really just not thinking about the consequences.
Em Schulz: When you're in your hammering curtains to the wall era?
Christine Schiefer: That... Yes, when I'm in my justice for leeches era, [laughter] [laughter], which I have entered, umm, and probably which I will remain. Uh.
Em Schulz: God I'm... I just got used to you guys liking possums. Now I'm gonna have to deal with this shit.
Christine Schiefer: It never ends. Ah, okay. So let's get into it, Em. Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 was a regularly scheduled international flight on a passenger Boeing airplane, specifically a Boeing 777-200 ER. Now, a lot of this info, you know, has been broken down and... And kind of written to be understood by like, the average, you know, non aerospace expert. Uh.
Em Schulz: Like you?
Christine Schiefer: Like me and you. Uh, but I'm hoping just... I guess just let me know if you're like confused by anything the way it's written 'cause I... I, it, I hope it makes sense, but if it...
Em Schulz: Also.
Christine Schiefer: If something's confusing, tell me.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I will, I also wanna say then, because I... Without even knowing what you're about to say.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: If you have to make that kind of claim, I know the mental gymnastics you've done in the last few days to figure it out for yourself was crazy. So congratulations.
Christine Schiefer: Well, thank you.
Em Schulz: And I'm proud of you.
Christine Schiefer: No, you know what's so funny is I was like... 'Cause our researcher, Molly Anne did, you know... Did like the... The main core set of notes. And of course, like I knew the story already because I was... I had read this article, but then I was like, I need to like reread this article just so that I can like... Like today just so I'm like really prepared and on it. 'Cause it... It's been a few months since I read that article. So, uh, Medium has this thing on the app where they'll... Where you can listen to the article. So I was like...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Running errands and listening to the article and I was like, Oh my God, I was getting all fired up all over again. Umm, so yeah, there... And... And I will say it's probably because Kyra Dempsey is so good at being able to write it in an... An easily understandable way, but.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: There is a lot of terminology and a lot of like moving parts. So tell me if anything is confusing.
Em Schulz: Okay. I will be calling myself a... An aerospace engineer at the end of this just so we're clear.
Christine Schiefer: And honestly, I will sell you... Sell you... [laughter] I will sell you a certificate. I was gonna say send it, but I'll probably sell it to you for a price 9.99 over the course of the next...
Em Schulz: Highway robbery. Hang on a second. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but yeah, you'll deserve it. So in any case, this airplane, the 777-200 ER first flew for British Airways in 1997. There were 422 models of this plane built in total. It's considered a very reliable plane to Boeing, you know, 777, we've heard of it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so airlines operated this model specifically for decades. As of 2021, there were 182 of these planes still active globally. 183 were in storage. 42 were no longer usable. Nine were scrapped and six had crashed.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Malaysia Flight 370 was among those ill fated six that crashed presumably.
Em Schulz: Okay, sure.
Christine Schiefer: At 12:41 AM this is where it all begins. On Saturday, March 8th, 2014, Flight 370 took off from Kuala Lumpur International Airport and that is the capital city of Malaysia. Its destination was Beijing Capital Airport in China. There were two flights every day on that route. So this is a very normal route for this plane to be taking.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And the overall travel time would be about five hours and 34 minutes. So this is a red-eye. There were 239 people on board, 227 passengers, two pilots, 10 other crew members, and then 31,517 pounds of cargo. I don't know how many pets, if any, which also makes me upset.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: The plane taxied to the runway, took off without any issues, climbed to cruising altitude 35,000 feet. The cockpit remained in regular contact with the ground, letting them know they were at cruising altitude as expected. Umm, in fact, the captain, uh, who we'll get into later was so thorough. He actually repeated the routine calls, umm, to report the altitude twice to make sure all the info was to the right people. Essentially everything was operating as usual for the first 40 minutes of the flight. However, at 1:07 AM... Like, it's upsetting to think about this too in the... Like, putting yourself in their shoes. Because you think, you know, the flight took off at, uh, 12:41, so now at 1:07 they're like, up, up in the air. And I... I just imagine it's a red-eye. People are like falling asleep and getting comfortable and it... It like makes this a little bit more...
Em Schulz: Feeling safe.
Christine Schiefer: Darker. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It just... It makes it feel... I have a bad habit or a good habit, but sometimes a dangerous habit of like really putting myself in the shoes of whoever's... Whoever story I'm covering. And...
Em Schulz: Oh def... Definitely.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's good and bad.
Em Schulz: Also. Well, that... That timeframe is really like right when people are starting to calm down from the jitters of travel, and they're like, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah from the bumpy like...
Em Schulz: Everything's okay. We're good.
Christine Schiefer: We're smooth, we've plateaued. Like we're, you know, lights are now off, you know, it... It's just... It makes it a little more, umm, it hits home more.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So 1:07 AM the plane's computer communication system sent a standard transmission that displayed the flights path, and it was on route to China as planned with no deviations. At 1:19 AM, uh, the plane, MH370 was at the end of Malaysian airspace flying over the South China Sea. So the Kuala Lumpur control Center initiated the transfer of control to the control center in Ho Chi Minh City, also called Saigon. Depending on, umm... There's apparently a little bit of, conflict over which of those terms is the appropriate term to use. Umm, but.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: From what, uh, you know, Molly and I could find there, it's, debate... It's hotly debated, so I'll just, you know, say both for now. Umm, Ho Chi Minh City also called Saigon in Vietnam. And essentially what that means is they were flying from, uh, their Malaysian airspace into Vietnamese airspace. So it was sort of like we're passing on the, you know, response.
Em Schulz: Crossing International boundaries, borders.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. So now it's basically theoretically, uh, Vietnam's...
Em Schulz: Problem.
Christine Schiefer: Problem. [laughter] Yeah. Like responsibility to...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: To be in touch with this airplane. So Malaysian control radioed the cockpit as they were leaving Malaysian airspace and said, "Malaysian 370 contact Ho Chi Minh, 120 decimal nine. Goodnight." The first officer on the plane on the flight responded, "All right, goodnight Malaysian 370." That'd be the last words they ever heard from this flight. So at this point, tracking of the plane should have been transferred, like I said, from Malaysia based controllers to Vietnamese controllers, because it was now in Vietnamese airspace, but...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: MH370, even though they had just radioed goodnight back to Malaysia, never made contact with Ho Chi Minh. So, one minute and 43 seconds after the goodnight comment, we're switching to new airspace at 1:20 AM the transponder on the plane went dead.
Em Schulz: One minute later?
Christine Schiefer: One minute and 43 seconds later.
Em Schulz: So something happened, we think in those two minutes.
Christine Schiefer: In that... Something happened in those two minutes.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: There would be no further communication from the plane. Air traffic controllers on the ground, uh, follow the paths of every flight using radar, and each plane appears as a little blip on their screen. Sort of like that classic look of a radia... Of a... I'm sorry, of a radar, you know, where the blip is moving through and it's scanning.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. I gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So it shows the location, but that's it. Like the... The little blip doesn't say like, flight X, Y, Z heading in this direction. It's just a dot. So like that's...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: That's how they can track it. So controllers will know there's an aircraft, they don't know who it is or where they're headed. For more detailed information on a flight and its path controllers rely on planes transponders. Now a transponder...
Em Schulz: Got it, and it... And it...
Christine Schiefer: Essentially... What?
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, and that's been turned off after two minutes.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. So that is the thing that turned off right after they said... A minute and 43 seconds after they said goodnight to Malaysian air control.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So what a transponder does is it sends electronic messages which communicate a plane's flight number, altitude, speed, and where it's heading. So, it's basically what you would imagine they radio back to be like, "We're this many feet and we're... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "At this altitude." You know, just like the usual jargon that pilots, I imagine would say to ground control.
Em Schulz: But so... But they basically just like one minute, 43 seconds later, just off the grid, no information.
Christine Schiefer: It just... It just shut off. Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: When the transponder went out, controllers on the ground lost access to all of that. They can't... They can't access where the plane is. They can't access the altitude speed where it's going.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Essentially, flight 370 could be flying at any speed, at any altitude, in any direction. And...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: I know it's... It's almost like they go dark, you know?
Em Schulz: And that's... And that's also... That's also like, I mean, I'd don't know anything about this stuff, but it seems like that's a massive risk to every plane in the sky now, because there's just like a rogue...
Christine Schiefer: Fair point.
Em Schulz: Like, it's like if it were on the road, there's just like a random person driving maybe in the wrong direction on a highway and you don't even know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fair point. And nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So alarm bells didn't go off right away. I think there was a little confusion. So Malaysian controllers assumed as they had already said goodnight, that now the plane was in Vietnam range. And so it was Vietnam's job [laughter] to pick up the communication. But when Ho Chi Minh didn't hear from the flight, you know, they continuously tried to get in contact knowing that this plane was supposed to be in their airspace, but they just could not, hear anything. So, according to Protocol Ho Chi Minh was supposed to reach out to Kuala Lumpur within five minutes of lost contact, but instead, they tried to reach the plane for 18 minutes, with no answer before they finally got in touch with Malaysia.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So 19 minutes go by, they're getting no response. They finally contact Kuala Lumpur, who was like, "Let... Let us check." They reached out to MH370 and also got zero response. So now, is where panic ensues, because...
Em Schulz: Sure the plane could not even be in the sky at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody knows where it is. Fear and confusion. Chaos. Kuala Lumpur contacts, Malaysian Airlines control center who reassured them, "Listen, don't worry. Flight 370, we just checked it's en route over Cambodia." But here's the first plot twist. This plane was not supposed to be flying over Cambodia or toward Cambodia.
Em Schulz: Oh, Shit, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Had nothing to do with Cambodia. What's more Cambodia's Capital, Phnom Penh reported they had no information and had not spotted this plane. So there's all sorts of mix ups happening here. Controllers had no idea what the Malaysian Airlines control center was even talking about or why they were saying, "Oh, don't worry, all's good. They're in Cambodia." It's like, why? And no, they're not. It didn't make any sense. But they have no transponder information, so there's no way to like double check this. And because they don't have a way to double check it. Controllers instead start following the flight through a global air trafficking product called Flight Controller.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So using Flight Controller, they were relieved to see that the flight was still in the air.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And on the original flight path to Beijing where it was supposed to be going, unfortunately, what they didn't realize until a little bit later is that Flight Controller... If a transponder goes out, it no longer shows the accurate location. It just shows the original predicted path.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Does that make sense? So the transponder goes out, if the transponder's on and... And reacting with Flight Controller, they can map out where the plane is. If the transponder goes out, it'll just show you, this is where it's supposed to be going. Like the original flight path.
Em Schulz: On, uh, Find My Friends. I turned Allison off one time when I was trying to test something. I turned... I unfriended her on Find My Friends, while she was driving home. And when I went to go look at it a few days later, it still said she was on the highway on the way home. Is it kinda like that? Where like, oh, the... She's not on Find My Friends anymore. She's off the grid, but it's... It's still showing the original path she planned on taking.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's sort of like that, except it would've probably shown like, oh, she's she's making... Like if... If Allison's phone went out and say she... Or... Okay. There's a stupid example, but kind of going off that, say Allison is driving, you're tracking her location to make sure like she gets home safely and halfway through, uh, her Find My Friends or her flight controller, uh, transponder, her transponder goes out. So she's no longer emitting like the signal of where she is. It's as if your Find My Friends would just continue the path that she was supposed to be taking. So for.
Em Schulz: Oh, so it's like still in motion.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So it's like showing the actual path. Yes, it's like showing the plane on the predicted path.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Even though for all we know, the plane is fucking in the ocean or like somewhere... For all we know, Allison's car is not going...
Em Schulz: It just...
Christine Schiefer: She turned around and it's going the other way.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But since the transponder's off, all you see is the predicted flight path. So they have this like brief moment of like, "Oh, relief. Thank God. It is on the way."
Em Schulz: But... But then they realize it's like on, it's default, is like it's just...
Christine Schiefer: Like the default is to show what should be happening...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: But we don't have a transponder to confirm any of this.
Em Schulz: Weird.
Christine Schiefer: So that was a very big disheartening moment, when they were like, "Okay, never mind." So back to square one.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: At 3:30 AM, controllers were informed of this. They... That, that's when they kind of had to admit, "Okay, we have absolutely no idea. This plane, MH370, is officially lost, completely lost." So 15 minutes later, 3:45 AM, the crisis director finally declares a code red emergency, which is an emergency that requires immediate response protocol. The control centers in Malaysia Airlines spent another two hours trying to contact the flight by radio and multiple satellite phone calls, which went unanswered. They were already at this point suspecting a crash, you know? Because why else would they not be responding?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But people, of course, continued to hope that maybe the communication systems went down. Yes?
Em Schulz: Sorry, I didn't wanna interrupt you again.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. No.
Em Schulz: I... I know someone out there is screaming that I won't just let you say the story.
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: But I'm also very... By the way, while we're all here, round of applause. You're doing a great job with that story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you. And thank you to Molly Anne. But definitely ask as many questions as possible. I feel like there are so many bizarre twists and turns.
Em Schulz: So we all know what happened with OceanGate, the submersible. And, uh, you know how when they were saying like, "Only this many hours left until there's no action, only this many hours left."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Did they have... Was there any discussion like that when it came to like how long they could last in the sky?
Christine Schiefer: Fuel. Yes.
Em Schulz: Fuel?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Yes. Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. They had like the amount of fuel. And that definitely comes into play. They did... That's a great question. They had the amount of fuel that, umm, and how far... They could, like, predict how far it could get, depending on... I mean, the tough part is they don't know which direction it went, but...
Em Schulz: Right. Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it... It was not on course. But they did... They were able to say like, "By now, this plane should have run out of gas or fuel."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So they are hoping, you know, like against all hope that this plane, maybe the communication system went down and Flight 370 would somehow land in Beijing against all odds. Umm, so at 6:30 AM, like, I imagine everyone's just peeing their pants in nervousness.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The flight is supposed to land in China, does not appear.
Em Schulz: Everyone... Everyone at Beijing airport is just like waiting to see if something comes outta the sky.
Christine Schiefer: Like high intensity. And you know, like people at the airport, or at least the higher-ups, know about this.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm assuming other people... Most people don't, 'cause they haven't made a public announcement. So that must be like a bizarrely tense day at that airport.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Especially... This was 2014, and I feel like if you're at an airport after 2001 and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: If you can feel tension in the air, all your feelers are up.
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes I see...
Em Schulz: Like, "What the fuck is going on?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No, 100%. You like are hyper aware of like any anomaly in like a travel, on a travel day. And I've seen like situations where you see like kind of the air traffic people and the... I don't know who everybody is, but they're wearing uniforms, and they're all speaking in hush tones, and I'm like, "Is it... "
Em Schulz: Yeah. At an airport after...
Christine Schiefer: "Is there something I should know?"
Em Schulz: After 9/11, if I ever see a security guard looking nervous at an airport...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I'm not flying that day. Like, I'm going home.
Christine Schiefer: It's a very scary thought. It's a really scary thought. And so I'm... I'm imagining there was high tension there at the Beijing airport, umm, especially as the minutes ticked by and the plane did not land.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: This is when they really felt like, "Okay, something has gone terribly wrong." Malaysia officially launched a search and rescue operation near the plane's last-known location, like the last time it had pinged over the South China Sea, thinking, "You know, well, it had probably crashed here, and we'll start searching." Then at 7:24 AM, Malaysia Airlines had to make, and I feel terrible for whoever had to step up and do this, a public announcement about the missing plane.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And suddenly, the news broke worldwide, creating just like an international media storm and of course, devastating the families of the 239 people who were expected to just land a couple hours later in China.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine. I can't... The terror, the full terror.
Christine Schiefer: It really... Like, this, uh, airplane topics, like, really get me. Uh, it's...
Em Schulz: And for a lot of people. A lot of people have flight anxiety about like, "Will I deal with turbulence?" Not, "Will I go fucking missing?" You know?
Christine Schiefer: Seriously. Seriously. It... Ooh, ooh. It's, it's a very scary thought. So, you know, I understand if people are like, "Nope, not for me." Like, I get it.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So things are looking pretty damn bleak. Several countries, including the US, sent boats and planes to the South China Sea to aid in the search. And they expected to find signs of the plane within hours, or at the most, a day or a couple days. And fun fact, when a plane crashes, uh, in the ocean, especially such a big jet, the bulk of the plane sinks deep underwater. So what searchers do is they look for lightweight debris, like seat cushions, insulation, life jacket...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Things that would obviously float to the surface. And, of course, tragically, bodies of victims who hadn't been strapped into their seats. Umm, and these would float to the surface in, uh... In a situation like a large plane crashing into the ocean.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: However, search efforts can often be complicated by the amount of trash in the ocean. You know, you see like something floating and it's like, fucking styrofoam.
Em Schulz: That you think it's from that plane.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know, it's just like us humans being complete assholes and just throwing plastic at the fish. Umm, but when searchers finally do find what they're looking for, if they do, uh, this is like more of just a hypothetical or like appro... How... How this usually works.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, if they do find what they're looking for, the debris obviously will have floated away from the crash site. And so then, I think this is so fascinating, they have to do, basically, mathematical calculations that involve the ocean currents to work their way...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Backward in time to where the crash would've occurred.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine having that as like a bonus question at the end of a test? I would... Who...
Christine Schiefer: Do you know that three times in this, I write parentheses - Is this what calculus is?
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause like I don't know what calculus is, but like every time I read that, I'm like, "Oh, is that what... " And so when they say, "Oh, you'll never use math in the real world," I'm like, "Somebody's doing it. Not me, but... "
Em Schulz: Somebody used math to save lives, or to try to save lives. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. To do very smart things. And there's more of this kind of like ingenious, like new ways of trying to search and rescue that actually are now being implemented, uh, as protocol because of this crash. So we'll definitely get into like how things have shifted. Umm, but so now, they're looking for this plane in the South China Sea. And the hours are ticking by, but there is no sign of Flight 370 debris. And so something is not adding up. They're like, "Well, it is not here." That evening, Malaysian Airlines engineering department contacted the CEO of the company with some startling new details. So the department had reviewed Flight 370's satellite communication information, and it turns out that at 2:39 AM, Malaysian Airlines ground controllers had made a satellite phone call to the plane and nobody answered the call, but the plane's satellite data unit registered the call, which means the plane was still in the air at the time of the call.
Em Schulz: Okay. And that was at 2:39? What time was that?
Christine Schiefer: 2:39. Now, at 7:14 AM, another satellite call connected to the plane's satellite dana... Data, which meant the plane was still in the air 45 minutes after it was supposed to land in Beijing and six hours after its communication went down.
Em Schulz: And that couldn't be a fluke? That couldn't be a glitch?
Christine Schiefer: No. The satellite pinged...
Em Schulz: What? So how did...
Christine Schiefer: Pinged it, that it was, that it was... They... They called to the plane, and the, uh, transmission was received. They weren't... They didn't communicate back.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: But the transmission was received, which means it was still operating and in the air.
Em Schulz: And... And it had to be in... In the air, for sure, not just like on the ground?
Christine Schiefer: I believe so, because I think because it's like a satellite, like, it's meant to track flying objects.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm... I'm quite sure, uh, this is confirmation that it was still in the air.
Em Schulz: So what does that mean, if it was, uh, uh, for it... It lasted an hour longer than it was supposed to in the sky? Like, or...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, I think they all typically have more fuel...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: In reserve, you know? Like, I don't think it's like they have the exact amount of fuel just to get from point A to B... Point B...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: In case they have to reroute or something like that.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but it was still shocking, because they thought, "Oh, well, this is probably just your... " I mean, I hate to say, cut and dry plane crash, but like the systems went down and we can't find the plane. Presumably it crashed. But no, hours and hours later, this thing is still in the air, apparently.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So far, I'm thinking like someone put it in autopilot and hijacked the plane or something? Like...
Christine Schiefer: That is a theory.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That is definitely a theory.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So more satellite data would continue to come to light. Uh, a satellite over the Indian Ocean that was operated by a British company... Oh, that's the other thing. There are a lot of like private companies that also have kind of satellites and things in the air that they can like volunteer their information. Like, it's not governmental tracking, like federal tracking, it's more like specific private companies that have, umm, some sort of a satellite up there, and they can, you know, say, "Oh, we were able to ping the plane at this time." And so they did. They... They offered up some information. The satellite contacted the flight... Oh, sorry, I didn't even finish this sentence. And so that's what they did. The satellite over the Indian Ocean operated by a British company had actually made contact with Flight 370 in the early morning. So the satellite contacted the flight with a series of signals called handshakes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I'll just, real quick, like tell you what a handshake is. Basically, it's when the satellite recognizes the airplane in the air and like pings it, like sends an electronic query.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the satellite will then tilt in a position to receive a response if the airplane sends a message back. But the flight never completed the handshake. They never sent a message back.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: It was sort of as if like picture, like you're calling the plane over the phone and they're not answering, but you know it's there.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So they pinged it, like, they were like, "Oh, okay." So with those handshakes, they can see right about, or at least an area of where the plane could have been as it moved. Umm, but again, there was no, like, conscious response from the plane. So, uh, the plane was sending these signals called handshakes, right? And even though the plane...
Em Schulz: Should we... Should we address that you're in a different outfit?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Sure.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm, hey everyone, remember that time when Christine fell asleep mid podcast...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And we had to redo, uh, the podcast the next day?
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I didn't fall asleep.
Em Schulz: She didn't fall asleep. But after we recorded... By the way, we're now... The middle of this podcast is a different day, and we realized that there were more notes to, to go, so.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, here's what I did. I accidentally deleted, like, a page of notes somehow. [laughter] And when I got to the end of my notes yesterday as we recorded the episode, I was like, "Oh shit, I missed like a huge chunk of notes. Where are they?" So I went and found them, and now we're recording them the day later.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it's gonna skip from this to like us yesterday. So there's just like one page [laughter] where these notes... I'm so sorry. Like, this is...
Em Schulz: We're in a bit of a... This is a weird, like, glitch in the Matrix. We're just...
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: We're in the middle of two sets of the same day.
Christine Schiefer: We're like going fast forward then back again. Umm, and future us that you hear in a few minutes won't know that we're doing this. So it's kind of trippy. Umm, and I apologize. But I was explaining to Em about the handshakes that the, uh, satellite was sending to the airplane. And essentially, they send this, this handshake, and the plane is supposed to respond, but it wasn't... It never picked up.
Em Schulz: Right. Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: However, the satellite could still see that Flight 370 was on... Was flying every hour until 8:19 AM.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Until it went out of range. So basically, this plane is still in the air at 8:19 AM, and that means it was still in the air more than seven hours after takeoff and nearly two hours after it was supposed to arrive in China. So in other words, they were like starting the process to look for the wreckage before the plane had ever even gotten out of the air. Isn't that wild?
Em Schulz: Yeah. It makes you also wonder, like, so how much... I mean, I know there was more fuel than, I guess, the jet truly needed, but how much fuel... I would wanna know the math of like how much fuel is there in total on this plane and how far can it get if it's now exceeding its destination?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You asked that yesterday. I was like, "I'll let you know." And then I apparently deleted the entire bullet point. [laughter] But I have it right here.
Em Schulz: I'm still desperate for the information.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good. I'm so glad. So I will tell you, umm, in like two bullet points. This...
Em Schulz: I don't believe you. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, I will. I know. Delete. Oops. Umm, no. [laughter] Authorities began to suspect foul play, kind of like you did at first, right? Like they believed someone on board deliberately disabled some of the flight's communication systems, because if the plane is still in the air but not responding, like, it seems intentional.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So here you go, Em. At takeoff, the plane was equipped with 108,200 pounds of jet fuel.
Em Schulz: I don't even know what that means. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, well, you asked for this information. You did.
Em Schulz: I know. I know. I know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. The trip that was planned to Beijing...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Would consume an estimated 82,000 pounds of fuel. So this is, uh... I'm getting hives just thinking back to like math class. I don't like this at all. But...
Em Schulz: Well, what was the original number?
Christine Schiefer: 108,000. 108,000.
Em Schulz: Okay, so that's like 20... Well...
Christine Schiefer: 82,000.
Em Schulz: 80 plus, so it is 26, 26 more?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, Em.
Em Schulz: I think it's 26,000 more.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I... Like, I literally believe you. I have no idea.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Now, I'm feel like we're... Now, I'm nervous. 108,200. Wait. Shit. 108,200 minus 82,000 is 26,200. You're so smart. Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So that is how much would be in reserve, 26,000 pounds of fuel.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And that would be enough to travel, here you go, an estimated 7 hours and 31 minutes total.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And the original flight was scheduled for 5 hours and 34 minutes. So almost 2 hours more of fuel...
Em Schulz: Sure. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Is on board. So it's weird because the plane had plenty of fuel to divert to multiple airports if there were an emergency.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, if... If something had gone wrong, they could have diverted to... It's not like they were stranded over the ocean with not enough fuel the whole time. Like, they could have landed somewhere safely.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So this is also why they thought maybe this was foul play.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So now they're obviously thinking, "Where the hell did it go if it's still in the air at 8:00 AM?" So engineers worked out a way to estimate the flight's location using the satellite data. Every time the satellite sent a handshake, the amount of time it took for the signal to reach the plane and like bounce back...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They were able... It's like genius. They were able to use that to create like potential paths saying, you know... I don't know. It reminds me of like, If a train is traveling at this speed...
Em Schulz: Right. Right. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: For this many miles, like, which I could never understand, but obviously, much smarter people than I are on this. And, uh, so they were able to kind of do this ingenious kind of hack where they saw how long the signal took and they were able to route multiple different potential, uh, routes that this plane could have taken. And it... It wasn't precise, by any means, but it was at least a good idea of the flight's path in relation to this satellite.
Em Schulz: People who are into like aeronautics and like that... Make that their job...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: I don't think I've ever understood until now what maybe their job entails. But like, having to do math about planes is crazy. There's...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. That also like requires you to think of people's human lives at stake. Like, "Oh my gosh."
Em Schulz: Ugh. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I remember my friend's dad had all these like textbooks about like airplane... History of Aviation. And I would look at it and go like, "Well, I'm not a... I'm not a girl... Girly in STEM. I know that much," and I'm 3. [laughter] Like, I figured that out early.
Em Schulz: I feel like, umm, it's very much... I mentioned this to you when it came out, but back at the last Spider-Man movie, he and Spider-Man defeats Dr. Strange...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because he uses math and like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And he says like, "You know, what's cooler than magic? Math!" And like, I just knew that was gonna be on like an educational poster somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Every poster in every middle school, you know it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you know it.
Em Schulz: Like, you know like...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I should get my Cricut machine out and start like profiting off that, you know? [laughter] Marvel's gonna sue me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I just can't be... Like, you know they said it, they planted that line to make it a promotional poster.
Christine Schiefer: To merchandise it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For sure, to merchandise it. Yeah, I totally agree.
Em Schulz: But anyway, Spider-Man, if he were hearing the story, he'd be like, "Can't agree. Math saves lives," so.
Christine Schiefer: He'd be like, "I already figured out where they are with my spidey senses."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so next, they had to determine, uh, which way the flight went, because there were multiple options. And data showed it was moving away from the satellite, but of course, they didn't know in which direction. So using the information I told you about the plane's fuel load, they were able to rule out several possibilities and they were kind of like narrowing down the potential paths this plane could take. So this was apparently an... I mean, unsurprising to me, a groundbreaking method of searching. Umm, a man named William Waldock, who is a professor of accident investigation, said, quote, "In terms of search and rescue, they're probably going to have to rewrite the book after this."
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Like, they are like totally re-engineering, so to speak, the entire way that they're doing search and rescue here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So in the end, they determined that the flight either headed northwest, crossing China and India into Central Asia over Kazakhstan.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the other possibility was that the flight veered Southwest. So on that route, the plane would leave land completely and just fly over open ocean, over the Indian ocean.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which also doesn't make sense. You know? 25 different countries joined the search effort, and the northern route was ruled out because none of the countries that this path would've been on reported seeing any flights that matched in their airspace.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So basically, searchers were like, This plane went out over the Indian Ocean. Like, we can pretty confidently say that. Searchers deployed 43 ships and 58 aircraft to the only remaining possibility, the southern path over open ocean. This search area was vast. William Waldock told CBC News, "If it really is out there in the Indian ocean, they're going to need a lot more than that," a lot more than the 43 ships and 58 aircraft.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So on land, family and friends of the passengers and crew, of course, couldn't do nothing but wait and just be like in total anxiety and despair, I imagine. Umm, some of them were trying to hold onto hope, but others already began mourning at this point.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible. On March 24th, which was 16 days after the flight vanished into thin air, an emergency meeting was called in Beijing to notify the victims' relatives that they had ended rescue efforts and they were calling it quits. Malaysia Prime Minister, Najib Razak confirmed that Flight 370 was lost in the Indian Ocean, officially is what they were saying. The flight didn't have enough fuel to continue south, and it had no place to land on its route over water. And the Malaysian Airline CEO said, "We have to assume beyond all reasonable doubt that MH370 has been lost and none of those on board survived."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So of course, this became an international tragedy. Umm, and I'm gonna list real quick, the passengers on board were citizens of the following countries; Malaysia, Australia, Russia, New Zealand, China, France, the United States, Canada, India, Iran, Indonesia, Taiwan, Netherlands, and Ukraine.
Em Schulz: Geez. Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: It... Like, I have chills. And I don't know, again, the details on the ages, which I don't think I want to, to be honest.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it's just, it's... It's horrific. The International Buddhist organization, Tzu Chi, sent teams to Malaysia and China to provide specialized emotional support to the victims' families.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which I thought was like...
Em Schulz: That's beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: Really beautiful. And you know, the world is in mourning, uh, and like fear. But the search for the plane continued, because they wanted to find this black box. And Flight 370 was equipped with two black boxes; one recorded data on how the plane was functioning and the other recorded noise in the cockpit, including pilots' conversations.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So black boxes are equipped with battery-powered beacons that send out these sort of pings to indicate their location. And ships can use special sonar equipment to detect the sonic signals underwater because they essentially sink, uh, when, when the plane crashes into water.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: The batteries would only last 30 days. And authorities were like, "Shit, we're running outta time. We're already 16 days into this search."
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: "We don't have much time left."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So working against the clock. Malaysia, China, and Australia worked together to comb the immense area of sea. They picked up several pings on their sonar equipment, but... And they... They were getting their hopes up, but it turns out that... Oh my God, this is like... I don't know.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I don't wanna like mo... I don't wanna... It's just embarrassing, maybe, for them, I think, because it turns out the pings were coming from their own equipment back to themselves.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And I just imagine that would be so devastating when you're like, "Oh my God, we're hearing something." You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh gosh.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm not saying like, "Oh, they did something wrong." I have no idea, but it must just have been so...
Em Schulz: They're so, probably, wired that they got confused about like...
Christine Schiefer: Disheartening. Yeah, yeah. Who... Yeah, who knows? And there's multiple teams coming in with equipment. So essentially, it turned out these signals were false and were probably pinging on themselves.
Em Schulz: Which sucks because if you only have like 14 hours left and now you're like directing a whole hour of...
Christine Schiefer: 14 days, but... So...
Em Schulz: 14 days. I feel like it's like wasted time now that like you've been...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Trying to find these pings and it was you the whole time. [chuckle] Oof.
Christine Schiefer: It... It, it's almost like, "Oh, we've just concentrated our search in this one area thinking it was here. Turns out we could have been, spent that time, you know, searching more."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's gotta be really, really disheartening. So after, you know, the time passed, they basically ran out of hope, uh, that they would ever locate the black boxes. So the only remaining option was to simply start looking for the wreckage underwater. So on October 6, 2014, authorities began to search along the path or the arc where the plane last flew before it was lost to the satellite.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They searched over 74,000 square nautical miles of ocean floor with no luck.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: This is a massive amount of space, and it's not even as much as they would have wanted to to be able to, but the funds, you know, and the time just weren't there for that. But...
Em Schulz: That's still an... To me, that's an impressive amount of time, so.
Christine Schiefer: A massive amount. Yeah. No luck. No luck. Nothing. In 2015, locals on the Island Réunion, which is east of Madagascar, found a piece of a Boeing 777 in the sand during a beach cleanup. Now, authorities were able to use serial numbers printed on the metal to confirm that it was actually a piece of Flight 370. And this was essentially their confirmation that MH370 had gone down over the Indian Ocean, but they still found no sign of the actual plane or any of the people who had been aboard it.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So in January 2017, nearly three years since the incident, all three countries officially suspended their search.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Meanwhile, uh, a man named Blaine Gibson, who is a former lawyer from Seattle who specializes in wreckage hunting, started his...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know. What a Tinder bio. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What a... [chuckle] what a hobby. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: "I like long walks on the beach looking for shrapnel of an airplane."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's all. So he started his own search along the coast of Southeast Africa, and he discovered 11 pieces of debris thought to belong to MH370. As of 2021, 33 pieces of washed-up debris have been confirmed to be connected to that plane.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. Okay. So it's definitely like... I mean, obviously, it crashed at some point...
Christine Schiefer: So they have found pieces. And I will say, like, I... In the Black Box Down episode I listen to, umm, the guy who hosts it is kind of an expert on these things. And he explained, like, they couldn't say 100% that this, uh... It was called a flaperon, and it's like a... Just a part of a... A plane. And it had a number stenciled on it. And it was from a Boeing 777. And they were able to say like, "Odds are this is from the plane." They can't say definitively 100%, but we're pretty sure that it's from the plane. So in January of 2018, so this is years later now, a private search and salvage company called Ocean Infinity launched its own search effort. The company told the Malaysian government that they would conduct a search, but if they found nothing, they wouldn't require payment. But if they did find it, then the Malaysian government would pay them for their services.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's basically like a no find, no fee.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's fun.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you know, those lawyers that are like, "If you don't win, you don't pay, or if we don't... If we don't win your case, you don't pay our fee?"
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? And so the Malaysian government agreed. And this company, Ocean Infinity, spent six months and millions of dollars scouring underwater mountains and caverns with its cutting-edge submarines and sonar equipment. Unfortunately, they found nothing. And so they spent those millions and didn't get paid for it and didn't find anything.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Left with absolutely no physical information about the flight's final hours, investigators had to look elsewhere for answers. One odd detail of the incident was that according to phone data records, this... This creeps me out, the flight at one point was in... Within range of a cell phone tower while it was like off the grid.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: That means if anything was wrong, or if anyone suspected anything was wrong, why did no one make an attempt to make a phone call? Like, you know on the plane when usually you're out of service, but like, they crossed through areas where there was cell phone service. And you'd think like if you were in danger or you were... You knew something was wrong...
Em Schulz: Someone's looking at their phone or trying to send a message. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that somebody would have sent something, but that did not happen. So the thought now is, were they incapacitated the whole flight?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or did they... Or perhaps they had no idea they'd gone off course...
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they were just like in the plane, like chilling, sleeping.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So next interesting point. For most of its path south, Flight 370 flew in a straight line out to sea. But the initial turn it took to go off course... So basically, you can see when the flight is going on its intended course, then all of a sudden when it goes off course, it makes such a tight turn that this tight could... This tight turn could only be accomplished manually without autopilot by a very experienced pilot.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So now I'm starting to wonder like, and if they didn't get hijacked by like, let's say like an expert pilot that happened to be a passenger on board, who...
Christine Schiefer: And a terrorist. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And a terrorist, waits for everyone to either fall asleep or hurts everybody so they don't try to have access to their phones or anything, takes over the pilot, the... The only other thought now is like, was the pilot like a double agent or something and like just... Like the pilot knew what he was doing the entire time?
Christine Schiefer: Well, there's another theory, Em. You're... You're nailing it.
Em Schulz: Sorry. I feel like I'm... I'm... I'm spoiling things for you.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're saying the... No, you're saying the exact things that like are running through everyone's mind as they're discovering this, because it's like, "Wait a second." So a pilot would've had to make this. It's not like some random person could have gotten a hold of the controls and pulled this off.
Em Schulz: I mean, it, I... It could be seen as suspicious that that pilot was so anal about making sure every single thing was right and perfect.
Christine Schiefer: I thought that same thing. Like, he mentioned all the altitude things twice, even though it wasn't required.
Em Schulz: He's meticulous.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Calculating.
Christine Schiefer: And I wish I knew if that was his norm. Like, does he always...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Say everything twice, or like this time, was he like, "Just so you know, we are at this point?"
Em Schulz: Right. Maybe he's just a good fucking pilot and a victim and... Like, I don't know. [chuckle] So, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And that's why it's also really messy and kind of icky, 'cause you're like, "I don't wanna make these assumptions." I mean, there's... We don't know. And so it's like... But yeah, we'll definitely get into the pilot, because there is some more very intriguing information.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So in flight simulations, nobody was able to make the turn as quickly as MH370 had. And if this turn would have taken place, which it did, the maneuver sets off alarms in the cockpit.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And essentially, it turned so tightly that if it had tried to turn any tighter, the plane could have stalled and fell... Fallen right out of the sky.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Like, this is an extremely dangerous move.
Em Schulz: Also, would people like just be toppling outta their seats and onto other people?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Actually, I will mention that as well. Like, if you weren't sort of strapped in, you would've been flying...
Em Schulz: You're down. [chuckle] You're going down. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And potentially like concussed or who... Or dead, who knows?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the real maneuver that this flight actually pulled off was extremely risky. And so it's like it... It's like either something went terribly wrong and they were trying to like fix it. Do you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like maybe they took the turn because they were trying to avoid something, or maybe it was like an intentional move by the pilot. Umm, one theory is... Paints the, uh, pilot in a heroic light. So author, Ian Higgins, suggests perhaps a fire broke out in the cockpit, shattering the windscreen and causing rapid decompression. The cabin would've quickly lost oxygen. Uh, the passengers would've died. And the pilot, who was potentially wearing his oxygen mask, uh, but had no access to the controls because the fire had destroyed them, uh, he knew he would have to land the plane, but he didn't want to hurt anybody else. So he turned toward the ocean to crash the plane...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Where they wouldn't hurt anyone, and he would just go down with the ship, so to speak, down with the plane.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And that is a, you know, heroic thought. Like, if he knew everyone else was dead and he was like, "Well, I don't want any more casualties, so I'm gonna die along with the plane," you know, that is definitely heroic. Umm, but the issue with that theory is that this fire would've had to start in a highly specific part of the cockpit to create this scenario.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And this isn't something that has ever occurred in any Boeing 777. The plane was well-maintained, uh, had no former equipment issues that could have caused a fire that they knew of. Umm, and investigators even conducted experiments, like, they would take replicas of the cargo that was on board to see... Because they knew what was on board. And so they were like trying to see like if anything could have started this fire and they could never replicate it.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So that theory is like...
Em Schulz: Okay. So it's just... It... Yeah, really just not even likely at all?
Christine Schiefer: It's just a theory. It's like probably not, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's possible, I guess. So about an hour after the flight stopped responding to any air control, there was a temporary loss of power in the satellite communication equipment. However, the power was restored at 2:25 AM, and that's kind of how we know the plane continued to fly for roughly six more hours.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So if some sudden catastrophe, like a fire or explosion, who knows what, had knocked out all of the plane's equipment, then why did the satellite equipment only turn off temporarily and then get turned back on?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And why?
Em Schulz: I'm fully on board with the hijack theory at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, interesting.
Em Schulz: There's... So far...
Christine Schiefer: Keep that in mind.
Em Schulz: Okay. Oh, okay. Shit. Never mind. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So... No, no, no. Keep it in mind, 'cause it's a... It's a theory. It's definitely a theory.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Ian and others considered some other decompression disaster that could have deprived the plane of oxygen. And like perhaps the pilots couldn't use their oxygen mask for some reason, and they would've gone into something called hypoxic confusion, which is like the loss of oxygen and... And you're kind of delusional and you...
Em Schulz: You're kind of getting like all gloopy?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And you do things that you wouldn't normally do in your s... Right state of mind.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so the thought is maybe they had flown off course in hypoxic confusion until they eventually died and then like just spiraled toward the ocean. But this theory would require one or both of the pilots to be so hypoxic that they couldn't think clearly, but still survived without this oxygen for two hours somehow.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay. Right.
Christine Schiefer: So the chances of that happening would be nearly zero. Like if they were running out of oxygen, presumably they would not have lasted another two hours going like completely off course in confusion.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: They either would've been unconscious or dead. Next, investigators considered terrorism or a hijacking of the plane.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: However, no terrorist organization ever took credit for the incident. Uh, which kind of makes a whole hijacking plot moot.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like, well, of course the first thought is someone hijacked the plane, but then it's like, but why?
Em Schulz: For what? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, no... For what? Nobody said, "oh, we did this." You know, and that kind of is usually the point of a... Of a big act of terrorism like that. So that kind of just didn't make sense.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They did, however, do extensive background checks on every single passenger aboard the ship, which I thought was kind of interesting.
Em Schulz: Oh. That's so smart.
Christine Schiefer: It is so smart. And it feels a little invasive if you're the family member.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But I get it. You know, if they're really trying to solve this thing. Uh, pretty much nothing suspicious came up. So there were two Iranian passengers who were flying with stolen passports, but after doing a little investigating, it turns out they were trying to make their way to Europe to seek asylum.
Em Schulz: Oh God, that's so sad. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Horrific. And they had no connections whatsoever to any criminal organizations, obviously...
Em Schulz: And I'm... I'm sure some really awful people had opinions anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And of course, you know, it's like a fake passport that's already like alarm bells, but, it turns out that they...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. They had a reason. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They dug into it and they, gen... Legitimately were going to Europe to seek asylum was their ultimate, uh, plan. There was another issue. Okay. So this is where we get back to the whole pilot, uh, theory, because Flight 370 had disappeared expertly, like creepily expertly. I mean, you saw how... Well, I'll get into it, but its communication went down at the exact moment ground control was transferring from Malaysian Airlines to Vietnam Airspace.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it took longer to notice than it would have any other time if it were just flying through the same airspace.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Then we have that harrowing turn the plane took, which required extreme skill by an experienced pilot. Umm, and it's amazing, the jet, it's like something, uh, most pilots could not pull off.
Em Schulz: Like a mission impossible situation.
Christine Schiefer: Basically. Yes. Next, the flight carefully towed the line on the border of Malaysia and Thailand. And one theory is that perhaps it was trying to stay off the radar of both of those countries.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Thai military controllers actually picked up the plane on their equipment, but they assumed Malaysia had it under control, and Malaysia meanwhile hadn't even...
Em Schulz: Vice versa.
Christine Schiefer: Noticed it because they thought, oh, well they're in Vietnam by now. You know? So it was almost like this person knew how to disappear...
Em Schulz: So Someone... It had to be a pi... I mean, obviously it had to be a pilot originally for the turn, but to even understand like flight courses and flight plans. And how...
Christine Schiefer: And how air control would work, and how they would ping you, you know, to turn off all of the transponders right at that time.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And now I think I mentioned this later, but like the interesting thing too about, uh, the... The satellite, remember how it turned back on?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: One of the theories is that the pilot turned off all the equipment, but didn't realize that the satellite would reboot, and so...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: There would be a trace of where they were. And so the theory is like...
Em Schulz: So it was like the only hiccup in their plan.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's almost like... Exactly. It's almost like he turned off all the equipment so he wouldn't get traced or tracked, not realizing that the satellite would turn back on and be pinged.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so, you know, that's a theory. I just wanna be clear that's not... That's just one theory of why this may have happened. So it's hard to believe that all of this, the turn, the... The, you know, straddling the country lines, the borders, uh, turning off the equipment right at the right time. It's hard to believe that these are all sheer coincidences. So now investigators are turning their attention to the two pilots.
Em Schulz: Mmh.
Christine Schiefer: So we have two characters here. We have 53 year old Zaharie Ahmad Shah, and he was an extremely experienced pilot on Boeing 777s. Uh, he had 18,000 flight hours, uh, under his belt, 8,600 of which were on this exact plane.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So he was an expert on this plane. Then there was the first officer of the flight named Fariq Hamid, and he was 27 years old and he had only had 39 hours of flight training on the 777. But this was actually the final flight before he would be officially cleared to be a pilot of this plane.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So this was like his last, like, step before he could pilot this aircraft. Investigators were totally stumped when they looked into these guys, because Fariq, the first officer was 27. Uh, he was bubbly friendly. He posted often on social media, grinning ear to ear in different cockpits, like he loved his job. Umm, he was actually engaged to a pilot he met at flight school, umm...
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: And he was like this close to becoming, you know, like the next pilot of this really big plane. It like... So things were looking really up for him. So it didn't seem likely that this was something he would have, uh, commandeered or he would have planned out for a nefarious purpose. Then there's 53 year old Zaharie who was reportedly happily married with two adult children, and seemingly no issues in his personal life until they began to interview people who knew him more personally.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. So Zaharie had been separated from his wife and living alone in their home. Uh, he had been having multiple emotional affairs with several women. He told friends that, uh, between flights he would just often pace around the empty rooms of his house.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: He slept with flight attendants and he obsessively followed two models on social media, like almost to the level of like cyber stalking them.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like pretty aggressively followed them. Umm, some people in his life believed he was suffering from severe clinical depression, especially after the separation. And people, people were worried about him. He was described as a compassionate person and people were saying they were... They were extremely worried about him and it was difficult to watch him go through this part of life.
Christine Schiefer: But flip side of that is, you know, people living hard life going through a divorce, it doesn't necessarily mean you turn to mass murder. Right. You know what I mean? Like...
Em Schulz: Sure, sure.
Christine Schiefer: It's not totally fair to be like, must be him 'cause his life's messy, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like I'm sure if you went into the personal details of everyone on that plane, there's probably a lot messier stuff, and the...
Em Schulz: Statistically, he also wasn't the only one with clinical depression, so...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. So it's a little... It's sort of like he had the ability to pull this off and he had some conflict in his life, so it seems more likely that it was him, at least than the first officer who...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Was young and I don't know, didn't seem to be going through anything too tough. It's hard to say.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But then a Malaysian police report was leaked and it contained some more troubling news that pointed at Zaharie.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: This report revealed that Zaharie liked to play flight simulators, which is a very common thing among pilots to play these flight simulators and like, I don't know, plot out routes and like just either actually plot out routes or mess around and, you know. So that in itself was not weird and he would often upload the playthroughs to YouTube.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But they found on his computer hidden in a systems file that was almost like, it wasn't with all the other clips, it was sort of hidden.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it was a... A flight simulation he had never uploaded. And the flight in that simulation followed a path eerily similar to the strange path that the MH370 had taken...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Including that really aggressive turn.
Em Schulz: Wow. Well ding, ding, ding.
Christine Schiefer: I know. So in the simulation, the plane took similar turns to the flight. He flew the plane straight into the Indian Ocean and terminated the flight near the arc where the real Flight 370 made its final ping to the satellite.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: So it was like hauntingly eerie to watch this.
Em Schulz: So... Go ahead.
Christine Schiefer: Now I will say, I will say I have talked... Like, of course I found this to be like, Oh my God, like shocking evidence. But, you know, reading several articles on this watching... Umm, there's a docuseries as well, and I talked to, I forget if it was... It doesn't matter, but I think it was my brother and like he had done some deep dive into this too. And apparently like, it's not that damning, like it sounds really damning to a lay person, but apparently like this is not a... That weird of a thing to do. I don't know. I'm having a hard time like wrapping my mind about or around what are the odds that you would have this flight simulation plan and then.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: It just happens to occur in real life.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There is the possibility. It is eerie also though.
Christine Schiefer: There is the possibility. But it is eerie either way, you know? Umm.
Em Schulz: It doesn't... It doesn't help clear his name.
Christine Schiefer: It does not. And it... It doesn't prove anything, but it also doesn't help his case.
Em Schulz: Sure. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That's... That's the honestly probably the best way to put it. So this simulation, which he had never uploaded, umm, he had pre-programmed it... Oh excuse me. He had pre-programmed it in multiple short clips, essentially, so he could skip ahead to different parts of the route. Like instead of having to play the entire multi-hour path.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He could like skip forward to like, I'm gonna skip forward to the turn, I'm gonna skip forward to going...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: In this direction. Umm, it... It almost seemed like he had made the simulation with like a goal in mind, like.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Almost practicing it.
Em Schulz: So I was gonna say, so do you think if... If he's the one that we're looking for.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, do you think he was planning or do you... Like, could he have been doing the flight simulation and then like some of that you were saying like the... Like the lack of oxygen. Maybe he thought he was in a flight simulator and like recreating it. Like maybe was... Could he have thought.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Could he have been on drugs or something and thought he was in his flight simulator and like trying to...
Christine Schiefer: You know that's really interesting because I kind of had that same thought of like maybe he had done that so many times and then when something did happen he was like, "Oh, I can do this turn. I've practiced it a million times."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, may like, maybe it was like in his subconscious, like if it wasn't something he had done and he was trying to... Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, to me it sounds pretty damning.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I think.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. And that's just me. And I don't know that much.
Em Schulz: It would require an explanation that's for sure. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would like to know what the heck that was all about.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so, uh, Kyra Dempsey, a plane crash analyzer, uh, in her article for Medium that I mentioned earlier, proposed a new theory. Now Em, this is where when I found out that Kyra was a... You know, plane, what did I say? [laughter] A flight crash analyst or.
Em Schulz: Something badass.
Christine Schiefer: Something really kickass. Uh, an analyzer of plane crashes. Yeah. So when I found that out, I was like, oh, okay. That lends a whole new sense of credibility to this theory that she's posing because I assume she knows more than the average person about plane crashes.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For obvious reasons. So this is the theory that she proposed in her Medium article. Like just a potential. She said perhaps Zaharie, the main pilot, told Fariq, the first in command, to go take care of something in the cabin. Sort of just like sending him on like a little quick errand or maybe he waited for him to go to the bathroom. And once Fariq left, Zaharie locked him out of the cockpit, put on his oxygen mask, and then cut the plane's oxygen, lights and communication equipment.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The cabin in this case would rapidly depressurize and Zaharie would then have begun his violent two minute turn off course. That's how long it's a two minute turn. That's how like...
Em Schulz: Oof. That's a...
Christine Schiefer: Aggressive, this turn is.
Em Schulz: Steep turn. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I feel Eva's in my like motion sickness like bubbling up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so anyone who wasn't buckled in, like Fariq for example, who would've been just running an errand out there or like in the bathroom.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Would be violently thrown off their feet and out of their seats. Like you had mentioned earlier.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Probably unconscious. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Probably serious injuries would've occurred.
Em Schulz: Well, especially with no oxygen. Like you're definitely gonna be unconscious, including everyone.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Who's flopping around back there if they weren't buckled in.
Christine Schiefer: And the shocking thing too is like Fariq, who's supposed to be in the cockpit, his oxygen mask is in the cockpit. So like.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: He'd be cut from oxygen.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And would be thrown violently and he would not have had time to get to his oxygen mask. Plus he was locked out of the cockpit if this theory is true.
Em Schulz: So that makes sense why no one would have been looking at their phone with a...
Christine Schiefer: Communicating.
Em Schulz: Nearby a cell phone tower, a cell phone tower. 'Cause they were all unconscious. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then dead. Yep.
Em Schulz: Makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: So... Presumably in this case, Fariq would be unconscious or dead by the time Zaharie finished turning the jet those two minutes. And in another 10 minutes, the passengers who had survived this dramatic violent turn and had gotten ahold of their oxygen masks, their oxygen would've run out in 10 minutes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is just like the scariest thing I've ever heard.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like a plane full of 200-some people like all su... Suffocating to death. I mean, it's horrific. It's horrific.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So basically this would assure to Zaharie that everyone on board would be dead.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: For the next step of this theoretical plan. Once everyone was dead, Zaharie could then re-pressurize the plane and restore certain equipment and that could have been when the satellite communication back... Came back on and he didn't realize that it had flipped on.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because he kept all the rest of the communication...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Lines down. So he may not have realized about the satellite. According to this theory, Zaharie would've followed nearly the same path from his flight simulation until he was home free over the Indian Ocean, and eventually the plane would've just run out of fuel.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And crashed into the ocean.
Em Schulz: And that was so...
Christine Schiefer: So, is... It would've been a... A mass murder, suicide.
Em Schulz: That's... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Is the theory.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And, you know, that is such a big accusation to throw at someone who can't defend themselves and who, for all we know, tried to do the opposite and save people we don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so it's like a very tough line to walk because, you know, this is just a theory. Umm, and it's... It's possible. Uh, but for all we know, it happened nothing like that.
Em Schulz: It is the best theory someone has been able to come up with.
Christine Schiefer: I think it is the most...
Em Schulz: Sound.
Christine Schiefer: Sound. Yeah. Sound. It's the worst as far as like just the tragedy of it. But it's probably the most logically sound to me.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So that being said, nothing is really certain without the crucial black box evidence from the flight. And if Zaharie really were guilty of a murder suicide plot, he probably would have, which I didn't know they could do this pilots, but probably would've disabled the black box when he cut communication at 1:21 AM.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I didn't even know you could do that either.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, you gotta fix that folks. And I think they actually did do a lot of upgrades to the black box after... After this specific incident.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in that case, the black boxes would still give us, even if we found them and listened, if he had turned them off with the communication equipment, we wouldn't even know, like it wouldn't have even given us answers.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Which is also so frustrating. In the end, we learned some valuable lessons from the lost flight, or at least the, you know, airplane community did, because black boxes are now required to have a 90 day battery life instead of 30, as.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Because originally they were 30 and they emit pings. Umm, so they... If they fall into the ocean, you have like 30 days to find the pings of the black boxes. They're now required to have a 90 day battery life instead of 30 to... To. You know, buy crucial time in search efforts. The International Civil Aviation Organization also requires all planes built after 2021 to include independent tracking devices that signal the plane's location once every minute.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Which I'm like, wow, I'm shocked that didn't happen... Exist before. Just like a GPS tracker on a plane.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That really is.
Christine Schiefer: Is that wild. Like... Like...
Em Schulz: I feel like if you asked me.
Christine Schiefer: Renée has an air tag on her dog, you know?
Em Schulz: I feel like you... I mean, with Find My Friends, I have an air tag on Allison and she has one on me, so. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I don't have one on you. And every time I ask I'm rejected, so.
Em Schulz: I... At this point, it's a... It's a bit of a running, get... A gag for us. But, uh, you are welcome.
Christine Schiefer: Is it... It's real, I'm glad it's funny for you 'cause...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I have Eva's and I don't have yours.
Em Schulz: You're welcome to have mine. I... I don't care with it.
Christine Schiefer: I've asked, so I'm obviously not welcome and you have mine.
Em Schulz: No, I don't.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it says you and Lisa Lampanelli can both see my location, but I can't see yours.
Em Schulz: I truly can't see your location at all.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, really?
Em Schulz: I have Allison, Mom...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you know why? You know why?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause you saw me... You... You had my location for so long, and then I got so irritated that I deleted it. I was like, "Fine, Em, if I can't see where you are, you can't see where I am," which is at home always.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well...
Christine Schiefer: So I deleted you and I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Glad to know.
Christine Schiefer: You don't have to add me. It's... It's... It's... It's a big... It's a big ask, so I won't... I won't do it. Umm, in any case, hello, Gi-gi. Uh, where were we? Oh, so now planes have to signal their location every single minute, not just like on the hour, a potential like satellite happens to see it. Hi, Leona. Oh, can I see you for one minute? Sorry folks, but she climbed all the way up...
Em Schulz: How big is that baby?
Christine Schiefer: To see me. Do you wanna say something into the microphone?
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: What do you have to say for yourself?
Leona: [Laughs]
Christine Schiefer: Can you say...
Leona: [vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Can you say Mothman? Can you say... Can you say hello?
Leona: [breathes into microphone] Hello woof, woof.
Christine Schiefer: Hello woof, woof.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Awwww.
Christine Schiefer: Hello woof, woof.
Christine Schiefer: Can you say hello Funcle Em.
Leona: Hello woof, woof. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Close enough.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Say bye-bye.
Leona: Bye-bye.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Good job. Okay. We tried, I tried to get Mothman on the record but, next time.
Em Schulz: We got...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway...
Em Schulz: We got hello woof, woof. So Geo got a high, I didn't, but, you know, it's okay.
Christine Schiefer: You got a hello, blah, blah, blah, blah, 'cause I think she didn't know how to say Funcle Em but...
Em Schulz: I've gotten Em out of her once in my life, and that was...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: That was a good day.
Christine Schiefer: I should have just said Em maybe that's easier.
Em Schulz: I was trying not to respond so the camera would stay on you, but I... It was very precious.
Christine Schiefer: I think the with Zencastr now, I think they're, umm, both side by side.
Em Schulz: Oh, perfect. Okay. Well, then I just looked like a tool. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, but also she couldn't hear you 'cause I've headphones on so...
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think that, uh, it would've made a difference. It would've been me hearing oh, oh, oh, oh, and...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would not have relayed to her. Umm, so I'm so sorry about the interruption, uh...
Em Schulz: That was Leona's, uh, podcast debut in, as quoted, you know, she can be...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that beautiful? Yeah.
Em Schulz: She can officially be quoted.
Christine Schiefer: And she basically said, bye-bye, so...
Em Schulz: She... She said, hello, goodbye.
Christine Schiefer: She said hello to the dog, bye-bye to you and that's all she wrote.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, okay, so we're almost done here, I promise. But, umm, you know, like I said, now flights are pinging every minute, which I think is great. Please keep track of where my plane is at all times, uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Flight data recorders, black boxes should also stream, which I love, stream their information to ground control sites, so they're not just, like, locked in the black box. They can stream that information...
Em Schulz: To just, like, the internet?
Christine Schiefer: To the ground.
Em Schulz: Just like general like...
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no, just to the flight... To air control. Like to...
Em Schulz: Well, well, that's useful...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: It's a shame that wasn't a... A thing before.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying, I'm like, man, they really... It took a lot for them to kind of figure that one out, umm...
Em Schulz: I feel like if you... If, at Pub Trivia, if they said, when was that available? I would've not said as of 2014, I would've been like...
Christine Schiefer: Something like, when the Wright brothers were like, hey...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We went up... Up to the sky for two minutes.
Em Schulz: I would've assu...
Christine Schiefer: Let's make sure everyone knows where we're at all times.
Em Schulz: I would've assumed there was something, at least since, like, the '90s, you know?
Christine Schiefer: You'd think, or at least since... Since 2001.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Just saying. So in any case, uh, flights at this point should not simply be able to vanish without being tracked. Umm, these black boxes also should stream their information to ground control sites and they should float. These motherfuckers didn't float.
Em Schulz: They didn't?
Christine Schiefer: No, they sunk to the bottom with the plane.
Em Schulz: Oh, please. I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh please.
Em Schulz: Literally would've never thought that they were anything other than buoyant.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, if the airplane's seat is buoyant and you're supposed to wrap your arms around it, you'd think the black box could do it too, but what do I know?
Em Schulz: What do I know?
Christine Schiefer: So, kind of end of the story is Malaysia Airlines, flight 370 is still missing today. Umm, it has inspired countless conspiracy theories, as you can imagine. Some people believe the plane flew into a wormhole and is trapped in limbo, others say it was taken by...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Aliens. Uh, and Blaine Gibson, you know, the wreckage hobbyist or whatever he is, who found that, umm, flaperon on the beach.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So in his search for pieces of the plane, he actually started getting death threats from people who felt like his discoveries were threatening their theories about, like, time warps and government cover ups. And he was like...
Em Schulz: Pfft. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yo, I'm just reporting what I find, okay? Uh, of course the tragedy also inspired pop culture. Uh, there's a TV show called Manifest, I don't know if you ever watched it?
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: I started to watch it and I got so freaked out by the plane crash. It... It's not really a spoiler, it's kind of the whole point, umm...
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That, I... Like it's not really a crash, but it's like a very... Okay, let me just tell you. It's about a flight that goes missing for over five years. And when the plane...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Reappears and lands at its destination, the crew and passengers don't realize any unnatural amount of time has passed. It's almost like they like...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Skipped forward. It's a really cool concept, I think. Umm...
Em Schulz: It's really... It's smart, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then international authorities don't know what to do with these people who have been gone for five years and their families have, like, been trying to move on and think they're gone and...
Em Schulz: Not to be that person...
Christine Schiefer: Now they reappear.
Em Schulz: Not to be that person, but it is, uh, identical to Avengers when, the... They blipped out of existence, half the universe blipped out of existence for five years...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And now they're all coming back and having to like, cope with their families grieving for five years.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, shit. Yeah, see, I mean, similar concept. And to be fair, uh, in a Comic-Con interview in 2018, the director said he actually thought up the plot years before the Malaysia Airlines incident, but nobody cared about his pitch until years later when Flight 370 made missing planes topical. And then they were like, oh, now we wanna do this show...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, I promise I didn't write it, like, about the Malaysian Airlines incident. It was only then that, like, interest was...
Em Schulz: People cared.
Christine Schiefer: Sparked, yeah, exactly. So until it's found, which hopefully it will be, the fate of Flight 370 will remain a mystery. And interestingly, just this March, 2023, Ocean Infinity, that same company that did the, no find, no fee deal with the Malaysian government...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They announced that they have new evidence that may actually lead to the plane's discovery. Now...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I'm, like, waiting, I'm so excited to find out what it is. Umm, they didn't reveal any details, but the company does plan to bring this information to the Malaysian government for consideration. Umm, and again, Ocean Infinity is doing their, no find, no fee deal, so if they fail to locate the flight, the government doesn't have to pay them a cent, uh, and they kept their word on that in 2018, so they plan to keep their word on it now. And the Malaysian government restated that, will... Will only resume the search if they're presented with compelling new evidence of where the plane might be.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Another, quote unquote, "fun fact" uh, more of an Em style fun fact.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Is that, during the previous extensive search of the sea floor, which I didn't even get into because, like, it's... There's just all these maps of where they searched, I mean, one of the search areas was, like, the size of Minnesota, and it's, like, in... In the ocean.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Like, it's just so much... It just seems like almost hopeless sometimes, you know, umm... So, during the extensive search of the sea floor searchers actually discovered several shipwrecks from the 1800s that had never been found.
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: Was it...
Em Schulz: It's weird that that patch of water was just never explored before.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's literally.
Em Schulz: I don't know, enough of...
Christine Schiefer: Out in the middle of nowhere, like totally...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay. Well that is very fun, fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: It is... It's pretty wild. So, it's, you know, it's eerie to think like 100 years ago, 150 years ago, these ships vanished without a trace. Which is like so tragic and traumatic to think like, oh, similar... Similar things happened back then. Not on a plane, but, you know, the terror of being on a ship and knowing you're in the middle of nowhere and knowing you'll never be found. Umm, but it makes you also think, like, if that occurred 150 years ago and we found it last year...
Em Schulz: I know, it could...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe in a hundred years we find a plane, you know, or maybe in much less...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Since our technology has is advanced so much. Umm, so, you know, it's possible, uh, it's possible future generations or even our generation might discover Flight 370 and give a little bit of closure to the families of the victims because, umm, according to KS Narendran, whose wife was aboard the flight quote, "After all that has been done and said, we don't know what happened. We are in the same place as we were on March 8th, 2014. For all of us finding answers remains a critical matter."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, they're still living with so many questions.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine.
Christine Schiefer: And, it's just... It's a really tragic story.
Em Schulz: And not... To not have the closure to know, like, did they suffer? Were they scared?
Christine Schiefer: Precisely.
Em Schulz: Like, part of you just prays that they were just sleeping because it was a red-eye and they had no idea...
Christine Schiefer: And Something... Yep. And it just was like a... You know, snap of the finger and things went wrong. And hopefully there wasn't suffering. But, you know, it's just like, without knowing, you know, your mind goes so many places.
Em Schulz: And part of me is like, so I don't know if like the... If it's part of me is toxic or stupid or just like ignorant to the size of the earth. But in my mind I'm like, it can't be that hard to find a fucking plane. Like, it can't be that hard. But then you say things like, oh, part of the ocean, the size of Minnesota, uh, is like one part.
Christine Schiefer: In the middle of like an expanse. That's just, and... And by the way, I think part of the reason it was so hard to find is because there were multiple possible paths it could have taken.
Em Schulz: I... I mean it was a full radius of wherever it... It was last found...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They don't... They don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then like when they did more calculations, they were like, actually it could have gone even farther, but they didn't have the fu... And it's so expensive also...
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To do these kinds of searches. So like, there's only so much money they're gonna put toward it before they have to say like, we're just wasting resources. Umm, so, you know, there were actually protests when, uh, the Malaysian government announced they were stopping the search and saying, everybody, umm, has perished is what we're assuming. And, you know, there were... The families protested that for understandable reasons, because they really wanted to know. Uh...
Em Schulz: I mean, I get it, but I also definitely get why there were protests.
Christine Schiefer: Like I know, I know, I know.
Em Schulz: Let's just say...
Christine Schiefer: It's a hard thing to be... It's a hard thing to like fall, fall on either side, really.
Em Schulz: I mean, I... I can totally see why people would just want someone to not give up on them and their families and friends, and...
Christine Schiefer: Especially when you're just like so desperate. And it... I feel like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Part... Part of it too is like, there were so many searches that like, it felt like any day now we could have it. Like that kind of hope and then that like... It's like what we talk about in... In cold cases where it's like you get a lead and it feels like finally there's hope and then it gets snatched away again.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it just feels like a, uh... A really, really horrific thing for... For the... The families involved. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Especially, I mean, especially the pilot when they're like, Who knows? You know, what really happened? But to have all this speculation about like, your dad.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or whatever, being like this mass murderer and not really knowing. Umm, anyway, yeah. So it pre... Pretty, pretty dark stuff. Umm...
Em Schulz: Well, I... I know it was sad, Christine, but that was... That was a very good story. And not to like pat myself on the back here, but the Frank Mesmer story, I think that was one of my favorite topics of cover recently. And I think this was one of my favorite episodes we've done in a long time...
Christine Schiefer: This was a doozy. This was a good one. And I feel like very mysterious, a lot of questions that I'd love to hear from people on, which is always kind of fun.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I mean, most importantly, umm, do you like candy apple, or caramel? Because I need to weed...
Em Schulz: I totally forgot about... [laughter]..
Christine Schiefer: Need to weed some of you out. But the rest of it I feel quite... Uh, quite good about. I feel like, umm, this was... And... And, you know, I wanna point out too, like I waffled on doing this story because it's not necessarily true crime, but I just love like the... You know, I don't love...
Em Schulz: Well, mystery...
Christine Schiefer: The fact that it happened, but I just... I just... I am so intrigued by the mystery of it and trying to figure out, you know what... What could have happened So...
Em Schulz: Well. And my... My story was not paranormal, but you know what, every now and then we like to branch out and just see...
Christine Schiefer: We did past lives a few times. That counts.
Em Schulz: How... How far can we make a story like paranormal spooky, adjacent?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How far can we stretch that bot... Bubble. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What... What the tendrils get touched. But not it's a really great episode and way to bookend it, Christine because you just reminded me I have two caramel apples I need to attend to. So...
Christine Schiefer: Aah. Finally.
Em Schulz: Excuse me everybody.
Christine Schiefer: What if Allison ate one. I'm just kidding. That's not nice to...
Em Schulz: I'd scream. I'd truly scream. So...
Christine Schiefer: She wouldn't do that.
Em Schulz: She might, because there's two and she might think one is for her. So, I actually have to go check on that. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It's actually extremely upsetting.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.