[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, look at my hair. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Look at her. She's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Weeee!
Em Schulz: She's like a silly little club girl.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That's me. Wake up in the morning feeling like P Diddy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What an obscure reference now.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean? Isn't that relevant? Hi, my name's Christine. How are you, Em?
Em Schulz: And I'm a victim of being a millennial.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you were gonna say, "And I'm a victim of Christine as a guest."
Em Schulz: Oh, and I'm Em, a victim of whatever this Sunday show is.
Christine Schiefer: That's correct.
Em Schulz: Yes. [laughter] Uh, how are you, Christine? Are, are you feeling okay today?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, no. Thank you for asking. [laughter] I'm feeling like, uh, trash.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, or as I've said through tears to Blaise, Trizash, so many times now that he's like not phased by it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Was it in... Was it in tears of joy and laughter? Because that's...
Christine Schiefer: No. Dear... Deep pain. Deep pain. Deep-seated pain. Umm...
Em Schulz: To be fair, I would've been in tears of laughter if you were hospitalized calling yourself Trizash. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. To be fair, Blaise did not find it... He did not laugh. He was more concerned because [laughter] I was not finding my own jokes funny. And I think that's when he gets really worried. Umm...
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah. When you're not the only one laughing anymore and it's just silent. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: It's just silent in my house. There's no laughter.
Em Schulz: Do you... Do you wanna talk about what happened, or you wanna keep it vague, or what's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, absolutely. Let's fucking go, guys. I have an illness. You all know this already. It's called Crohn's disease. Some of you have it too. Umm, and some of you found out you have it, uh, as the podcast has been going and have messaged me about it. Looks like Em is frozen. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Alright. I'm... I'm... I'm here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, there you are. You're back.
Em Schulz: I... No, I just tried to escape, actually, and I couldn't get away. That's all.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You tried so hard though. I thought you made it. [laughter] Oh boy. Umm, anyway, so I had for the first time ever... And by the way, here are the fun statistics that WebMD told me. Umm, within the first 10 years of being diagnosed with Crohn's disease, I think 60% of people have an intestinal blockage.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I was diagnosed 10 years ago. This is my 10-year anniversary. I'm a little bit bummed out nobody's congratulated me. Umm, but it's 10 years, so I really just made that statistic right, right in the nick of time.
Em Schulz: Perfect. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yeah. And then as I read on, I was like, "Cool, I'm an a... I'm a statistic, finally." Umm, then I was reading and it was like, and of those 50%, 70-80% will require surgery to... To rectify this issue. And I'm like, "Uh-oh, that's not a good number, if I'm already in the 50%." You know? So in any case, umm, it thankfully seems to be resolving on its own. It's just basically exactly what it sounds like, and then your whole body goes haywire, 'cause it's a immune... Autoimmune disease. And so it feels like you have the flu on top of a stomach bug, on top of like getting hit by a Mack truck.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I wasn't super great for a few days, but I'm back, baby, sort of.
Em Schulz: Oh, I'm back. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And taking a lot of Tylenol and just drinking water, which...
Em Schulz: Trizash is back from the dump.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right. Trizash is classy as ever. Uh, I... You know what the worst part was? Is I had no appetite for three days,...
Em Schulz: Uhh!
Christine Schiefer; Which is when I know like something is deeply wrong. Like, I was... I...
Em Schulz: Oh. I've never experienced that.
Christine Schiefer: No, it was hor... It was scary. Uh, and I could not fathom the thought of eating. Umm, and so I, at one point, took a sip of water and I felt it like in my tummy, and it hurt so bad. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It hurt? Even like... What did it feel like?
Christine Schiefer: So bad.
Em Schulz: What did it feel like?
Christine Schiefer: It felt like, just like... You know, when you have like... Well, [laughter] I was about to say, you know when you have an ulcer? Well, it's basically...
Em Schulz: Actually yes, I... Yes, I've had one.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So you have an ulcer and then you're just like pouring like cold water on it inside your tummy. It just feels like...
Em Schulz: Burning?
Christine Schiefer: Someone is stabbing you from the inside a little bit. Umm...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So it's not enjoyable. And you know, every time... I haven't had one of these before, this blockage thing, but anytime I do go into a flare... And this is my first one in like five years. Every time I do go into a flare, I'm like, "Oh yeah, this really fucking blows."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, I forget. You know, I feel like it's with like childbirth and stuff where your body's like, "Let's not think about that." You know? And just like compartmentalizes it. Umm...
Em Schulz: So is it because like... Well, so don't you do your infusions though? Is it just like even with an infusion, it...
Christine Schiefer: I do. And... And so that's the scary part, is sometimes over the years... And they say after a decade, oftentimes it starts to lose efficacy.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And so I already had that kind of nerve in the back of my mind. And then I went to my infusion a couple weeks ago... And I'm only like halfway through infusion, so I should be fine. But I went and they did like a... Their regular blood draw, and my inflammation markers were high.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, "Hopefully that's just a fluke." Well, it does not seem to be a fluke. So you know what? This might be an interesting rest of the year for all of us. We'll see.
Em Schulz: Well, finally, in a very...
Christine Schiefer: But for now, I'm okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In a very sad way, I finally have a partner in... This is stupid medical world, so...
Christine Schiefer: Does that help, bullshit that we talk about non-stuff.
Em Schulz: It's... It's very rare we hear you talk about the pain you're in. So this is an exclusive as far as I'm concerned.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, welcome everybody...
Em Schulz: I'm so sorry...
Christine Schiefer: To my side of the table.
Em Schulz: I'm so sorry you're dealing with that though, 'cause I...
Christine Schiefer: Well, you know, I just... I just wanna give a quick shout... Thank you. I appreciate that. You and everybody else had been so kind and, umm, supportive and, umm, so patient when I just canceled our recording and, etcetera. Umm, but I wanna give a shoutout to Blaise because I was gone for four days traveling to New York and Boston and living my best life solo, doing Beach Too Sandy shows, having the time of my life, and he was solo parenting the whole time. Then I came home and I was like, "I actually need to be unconscious for 21 hours straight." [laughter] So I just like slept. And then the next two days, I was like, "I can't move my body because I'm triz... I feel like Trizash." You know? [laughter] And so he was like, "No problem."
Em Schulz: Sorry. It's not funny. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's a little funny. He's like, "No problem, no problemo. You get your rest. We'll... We'll take you to the hospital, whatever we need to do." Umm, and he just, you know, did the solo parenting and, you know, it's not, it's... Even if I were in that case, I think he would be very thankful for me. So I wanna throw it back at him.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: He's a very good parent and a very responsible, and I'm, uh... I don't know. I'm just thankful because otherwise, I don't know what the hell I would've done.
Em Schulz: He's a good man.
Christine Schiefer: He is. Yeah. He's...
Em Schulz: He's a good man, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: He is. He's a good one. Umm, so I feel very fortunate that I didn't have to worry about the wellbeing of my child while I ailed away, you know?
Em Schulz: I honestly don't know what you would've done without him. Uh, I don't know how you could have...
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't. I would've probably called my mom and just been like, I'm moving in with you, I think. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Right.
Christine Schiefer: I think he is, "Tell... "
Em Schulz: "Xandy, time to be uncle of the year." yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh man.
Christine Schiefer: Take her to the park. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, I didn't... I hope I didn't mean to like force you to talk about that on the air or anything, but...
Christine Schiefer: No. No. We know it would've come up,'cause I can't keep my mouth shut about anything, so.
Em Schulz: Are you... Well, are you treating yourself to anything to help your situation? Any... Any yummy treats recently now that you can eat again?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, I've been cricuting a lot with my Cricut Maker, my cricut machine.
Em Schulz: You're back on your bullshit, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I'm back on my [laughter] bullshit, which is why when we started, you saw me running around. I couldn't find the adapter, my dongle to plug in my microphone.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because, umm, I had been using the dongle for the, uh, cricut. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Unsurprising. Just... [laughter] Well, just... [laughter] Also, is it... On the back, on the table behind you, do you have a bunch of art stuff going on? 'Cause it looked a little busy over there.
Christine Schiefer: So that's, that's actually my new hobby. Umm, I'm doing nails now.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Nails by Christine.
Christine Schiefer: And these have been on for nine days, which is a record, and they're like fake nail...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, uh... And I... I made... I shaped them and painted them.
Em Schulz: Oh. They look very she she.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I'm trying to move them fast so you don't see all the flaws. But...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wait, can I show you the shirt I made for the Fall Out Boy concert? Hold on.
Em Schulz: Yeah, obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Just the back I've made. The front isn't done yet. Hold on. Let me grab it.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I am so excited.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, here's the back. Right? Okay.
Em Schulz: First of all, I'm so sorry if you can hear banging. That's my maintenance man doing something to my fucking ears, apparently. That's hold on. Hang on. Let me wait for it to pause so I can read it to everybody. Okay. No. Okay. It says, "Part-time soulmate, full-time problem," and, in case you were not, umm, lucky enough to see this with your own eyes on YouTube. [laughter] Umm, that's incredible. Congratulations.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you! I designed it too. Like, I went and I learned how to make font... Like you keep in a shape but then make it wavy. And so I learned how to do that.
Em Schulz: What is the font, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great question. It's called Surf Wave.
Em Schulz: It actually looks very cool.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. And then...
Em Schulz: I... I could see that... That's an easy Etsy purchase.
Christine Schiefer: And then the... Yeah, you know, I was looking at shirts on Etsy and I was like, "Wait, I could just make that instead of pay like $35."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Also, here's the front. I haven't finished what's going underneath it, but this is the name of the song. Let's see.
Em Schulz: Hold Me Like a Grudge.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Christine...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that the best? [laughter]
Em Schulz: It actually is very cute.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you!
Em Schulz: I'm not saying you need another side hustle, but that could actually...
Christine Schiefer: I was literally thinking nails, Cricut. What can't I do? Just kidding. I can do... I can't do a lot of things.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine a little nail popup that you did and let people come and get their nails done by you and they could just tell you ghost stories while you did it?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. But it would be so bad. [chuckle] It would be so bad.
Em Schulz: Okay...
Christine Schiefer: The shirt thing, I could at least do over and over until I figured it out. The nails, I think people would leave feeling a little bit like duped. You know?
Em Schulz: I do... I do think you have it in you to be able to have that side hustle on Etsy or Redbubble or whatever. But I have to be honest, I have already been a part of your journey of having to mail out individual shirts multiple times.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, [laughter] that's right, Em.
Em Schulz: And it...
Christine Schiefer: Wait. Well, how could I forget? Like, we literally...
Em Schulz: And it did drive you insane. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, it did drive me thoroughly insane. Umm, that's true. But as a...
Em Schulz: But you could do it again. You could... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But this time would be different.
Em Schulz: Okay. You would... How would that be?
Christine Schiefer: I didn't think you would ask me how. I just thought you would take my word for it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm, I disagree. But I think if you decided you wanted to do that, I would say I am looking forward to that for you. Love that journey.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: I can't wait to see you in about a few weeks when you give up because it is a little overwhelming.
Christine Schiefer: When I'm done. But that's what we do. We're Geminis. We get really excited about something and then we go, "Eh."
Em Schulz: You know what'd be interesting though? You could probably make... Think of like for Patreon or something, like the merch, if you... Remember when I had handmade merch and people like lost their minds?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Imagine if you handmade merch.
Christine Schiefer: Okay now. So now, we're talking.
Em Schulz: This is your time to shine there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So basically what you're saying is I would be doing the... All the same work...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But it would just be for...
Em Schulz: But more.
Christine Schiefer: Many more people? Got it.
Em Schulz: And more work, 'cause you'd be doing my half to, so.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Your half too, and I wouldn't be making additional income, 'cause it would already be part of the Patreon. You know what? I'm in.
Em Schulz: That sounds... [laughter] You know, sometimes our most chaotic decisions end up leading us to great things. So...
Christine Schiefer: Especially when we say them on air and can't take them back. So... You know? [laughter]
Em Schulz: That definitely is, umm, a winning financial plan. I don't see any... Any... Any holes to that.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. What if I... I wanna make Patreon something. I'll make Patreon something. I mean...
Em Schulz: Oh God, Christine. Oh my god. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I dunno know. I'll try. I'll try! I'll try.
Em Schulz: What about... What else can you do besides shirts? Little stickers? Can you make like nail... Can you make nail designs?
Christine Schiefer: Nail stickers. Wait, that's cute. I don't know how to do that. But I could do...
Em Schulz: I know by 3:00 AM, you'll know how to do it. [laughter] I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fair. But I will have had to invest probably two more... Two grand more in materials and supplies. So at this point, we're just like...
Em Schulz: Worth it.
Christine Schiefer: Losing so much money. [laughter] That's the other thing. I buy so much shit for my hobbies and then I'm like, "I'll make a side hustle," and then I just spend all the money. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know... Okay. How many... How many companies... Uh, how many podcasts alone do you know that have made it six years, very successful, having a good time, people still like to hear what we have to say somehow? And sometimes it's because you just gotta make an irresponsible choice.
Christine Schiefer: You know what...
Em Schulz: The whole podcast was an irresponsible choice.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right. We're built on irresponsible choices. The show is built.
Em Schulz: People like... They keep wanting to see the downfall, but we keep proving them wrong. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Is that a Fall Out Boy lyric?
Em Schulz: Could it be? I... You should put it on the shirt. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That was beautiful. Holy shit. I'm gonna put... Actually, do you have like two hours? I have to go put that on a shirt now.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. But make 80 of them and then sell them, and let me have 50% of the... The income.
Christine Schiefer: This podcast is built on irresponsible decisions. I can't wait. [laughter] We gotta find a snappy way to put that on a shirt.
Em Schulz: Put it in... On a dumpster fire or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait. That's cute.
Em Schulz: Make Kesha say it or whatever you were singing earlier.
Christine Schiefer: That's... [laughter] Make P Diddy say it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Em, how are you? I'm sorry. I've been talking a lot today.
Em Schulz: Finally. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Finally, [chuckle] it's your turn.
Em Schulz: Uh, well, I'm a little nervous today because as I said, my maintenance man has decided that now is the hour to just throw his hammer into every inch of my ceiling?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool.
Em Schulz: So there may be moments today, which we can edit out later. Umm, thank you Jack in advance. But, well, if you see me mute, let's just like kind of chill. We'll just have like a moment until he's done hammering.
Christine Schiefer: My favorite part, umm, about, uh, our relationship with Jack and, umm, incidentally, Eva, because obviously, is that we promised Jack beer for the episode that just came out, and, umm, then we just promptly forgot, 'cause we said it on air. And then Eva was suddenly responsible for it and was like...
Em Schulz: Oh, Eva.
Christine Schiefer: "Wait, you guys promised [laughter] him beer." And we were like, "Oh yeah, can you send him some beer?" [laughter] Like, what is wrong with us?
Em Schulz: Like, there's truly...
Christine Schiefer: Like we wanna do it, we... Our brains just are a sieve. You know, [laughter] just sand through my fingers. It's like I wouldn't want to give Jack...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sand through my fingers. Is that a Fall Out Boy lyric?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, so is this...
Em Schulz: Put that on a shirt.
Christine Schiefer: So is this, "I wanna give Jack the world, but sometimes I forget what I said." So, [laughter] you know, Eva, thank you for reminding us always and for keeping us... What's the word?
Em Schulz: What? Honest?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's the word.
Em Schulz: Responsible? Anything. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Those words are hard for me to conjure up, for obvious reasons.
Em Schulz: [Inaudible] [laughter] Well, so I don't know what this guy's situation is, the maintenance man today. The... Someone upstairs, it sounds like, needs an entirely new apartment. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe they're expanding into yours. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Like maybe... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It sounds like they are just drilling a hole into my ceiling.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe they're creating a basement for themselves in your apartment.
Em Schulz: So people can't see it, but right behind my computer is a wall. And I think that wall must have a bunch of pipes or something, because he's banging what I imagined is the pipes up there, and it's... It feels like he's literally...
Christine Schiefer: It's like ricocheting into your... [laughter]
Em Schulz: It sounds like he's just knocking into the wall. So, anyway, uh, apologies in advance, but that's why I drink because I feel like this is gonna be a real clumsy episode for no good reason. So...
Christine Schiefer: Fun.
Em Schulz: And no one's even gonna... No one's even gonna have to hear how choppy it is because they're gonna hear the edited version. But...
Christine Schiefer: Can we just blame me though? 'Cause as you said before we started recording, if I need to run to the bathroom, which, umm, if... If never before, now is the most likely time for this to occur. [laughter] Uh, 'cause in the past, Em would say that to me 'cause I'd be having like tummy ache and then Em would be like, "Oh, you can leave anytime you want." And I'm like, "Oh, thanks. I won't though. It's fine." This time, I'm like, "I might though." So I appreciate the leniency you have." Umm...
Em Schulz: I'm really hoping Jonathan, the maintenance man, and you perfectly sync up your situations...
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't that be nice?
Em Schulz: Where you're running to the bathroom and that's when he decides to bang all the walls.
Christine Schiefer: Say it's go time. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Exactly. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I'll text him.
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. Thank you. Umm, until then, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I've just got a story for you.
Christine Schiefer: Weeee! Oh, I'm so excited for today. I feel like we haven't recorded in a while. And I... I really am aching for a ghost story. And...
Em Schulz: I kinda... Yes, Sorry. I did not mean to interrupt you. I don't know what's wrong with me.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. Go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, I'm al... It was me jumping in 'cause I'm also incredibly excited to hang out with you. [chuckle] And I feel like there's... I feel like this is, umm, to your detriment, because I... I think we vibe the best when you're on tour with Sandy because then we... When we see each other, it's so few and far between that we...
Christine Schiefer: It's... Oh yeah, we're having other experiences.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because it means you and I are off tour, which means you're planning stuff enough.
Em Schulz: So I'm having a... I'm having a great time. I'm not on tour.
Christine Schiefer: I'm falling into disrepair. My body's falling apart.
Em Schulz: Truly.
Christine Schiefer: And then when we get back together, it's like we're thriving. You know what I mean? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I... Honestly though, like, that might be it. I don't know what it is, but when I hear...
Christine Schiefer: My mental illness is at an all time high. In case anyone's wondering, I've just like off the wall lost it, but it's okay.
Em Schulz: I'm not saying you wouldn't make a million dollars from a shirt that says "My mental illness is at an all time high," but you should make one just to see what happens.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I think that would be copyrighted, because I'm the... I'm almost positive that's a Fall Out Boy lyric. Like, there's no way it's not, so.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like anything moody but true that you say...
Christine Schiefer: Anything slightly emo. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Is... [laughter] Is Fall Out Boy.
Christine Schiefer: The angst is real.
Em Schulz: So here's the situation today. I've got for you a... A... A spooky town, a ghost town, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: And, uh, this is the story of Dudleytown, Connecticut.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my. I've never heard of that.
Em Schulz: Have you... Okay, interesting. Because as the ghost side of things, I have heard about it a lot, but I don't... I don't think anyone else would know about it. Or even people who... I...
Christine Schiefer: And I would say, I... I'm a... I'm sort of the Connecticut side 'cause I go there pretty often, several times a year. So... You know?
Em Schulz: Well, now you got a place to talk to Blaise about all the way there. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he knows. I... I'll be... I'll be very mad if he knows and he's never mentioned it. I don't think that that's the case, but...
Em Schulz: I'm... It would... It would make me giddy, uh, to see [laughter] a silly little fight like that sprout between the two of you. Just something about nothing.
Christine Schiefer: You know that Trizash would get thrown out again. The word. No word. [laughter] Not the literal trash wouldn't get thrown out. It doesn't matter. Okay. Sorry, go ahead.
Em Schulz: You're good. So Dudleytown, Connecticut, I've heard of a lot. I don't know, I don't expect anyone else to have. But, umm, it is a very... Very small village in an area of Connecticut called Cornwall.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and anyone in Dudleytown... At back... Up... Back in the dizzay, since we're going with this weird way of talking again.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, sure, sure.
Em Schulz: Uh, anyone in Dudleytown regularly had to still go into Cornwall because their town was so small.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So just to give you an idea of... Of like, the population was, I think max, 26 families. Max.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. Tiny.
Em Schulz: Umm, they didn't have schools or stores. They didn't have their own cemetery. They didn't have their own church. So...
Christine Schiefer: Losers.
Em Schulz: I know, lame! [laughter] So they... They had to rely heavily on Cornwall. But Dudleytown itself is the little section that's spooky. Umm, you can still... If you were to go there, uh, there is some remnants of the old foundations of the house, but nature has slowly kind of taken the... Reclaimed the space, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And Dudleytown is between Bald Mountain and Woodbury Mountain. And this is my favorite fact about Dudleytown, because you know I'm probably part vampire and that I am like just always, uh, anti-sun, anti...
Christine Schiefer: Anti... You're not anti-garlic though?
Em Schulz: No, no. See, I said half vampire. That's...
Christine Schiefer: You're right. That is true.
Em Schulz: All garlic, no sun. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: That's... That's from your other side of the family.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [chuckle] So...
Christine Schiefer: All garlic, no sun. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Tell Fall Out Boy to write that one down.
Christine Schiefer: Wait a second. That is also something I can vibe with. Finally, we found a matching slogan we can both get on board with. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, umm, uh, Dudleytown, one of my favorite fun facts is that because it's between two mountains... I think it's actually surrounded by three mountains, but it's a very hilly area in some like thick forest, and so it's 100% all the time, dark. Like, even at like high noon, it is dark.
Christine Schiefer: Huh?
Em Schulz: And you know, I love gloom and doom, and I love...
Christine Schiefer: Wait a second. So it's like just shaded always?
Em Schulz: Always.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, that sounds horrible. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, to me, no. To my doctor, who's already told me I'm severely vitamin D deficient, yes. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Boo, you gotta... You gotta... Listen. I'm also vitamin D deficient, but you can take a pill for that. It doesn't matter. But...
Em Schulz: I do take a pill for that. [laughter] And I'm fine.
Christine Schiefer: Right? But... So do I. But seasonal effective disorder, man, that kicks my ass every year.
Em Schulz: I've never had that. I'm very lucky.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it... Oh, it hurts me. So I could never live in like a place like Seattle or Dudleytown.
Em Schulz: Oh really? 'Cause Seattle's like the only city that I haven't lived in that I wish I lived in.
Christine Schiefer: It's you dream town.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I... I really can see it for you. I would only visit between certain months. 'Cause I think I would just get sad.
Em Schulz: But then guess what? Just like when you're on tour right now, you'd be gone and we would have... We would get to reform love with each other again.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking great... Great point. Great point.
Em Schulz: Anyway, apparently, this, umm, little thicket hillside area is the equivalent of Seattle to some. Umm, so...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. To me only.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But it's very dark all the time. It has been... And I... I'm sure that, you know, contributes to it being seen as very spooky.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's been called the... This is a quote, "The most evil location in the world."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: "The most haunted place in New England, and one of the scariest places in the US." It's also been called the Village of the Damned.
Christine Schiefer: Da... Oh, [laughter] it's very dramatic, I feel like.
Em Schulz: Which like... Speaking of emo bands, was there not a band called Village of the Damned? Or should there have been.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking Great. Some... It has got to be something like that. Let me look it up.
Em Schulz: 'Cause you know, like there fans would be called The Villagers. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, that's definitely a movie. Uh, a horror sci-fi film. Umm...
Em Schulz: There's also a horror movie just called The Village, which sucked.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I know about that one. I've heard about The Village.
Em Schulz: My mom dragged me to that one of all movies. She thought it was gonna be about a lovely little village. And then it ended up being people getting slaughtered.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's not like a little Swedish village. That's what I thought Midsommar was gonna be. And then I showed up and was like, "This is so upsetting." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, my mom, you... When I was... When I lived with her back in my teenage years, my mom... I don't know what her deal was, but she had this reputation across the family that she was just the worst movie picker, worst TV picker.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: She would always say, "We have to go see this one. We have to watch this one. It'd be great." And then it was just the fucking worst, most boring thing in the world. Or it would be really crazy that she was not expecting. So none of us were expecting it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She just didn't do her research.
Em Schulz: Example... Example, whatever... I don't remember what age I was. I had to have been like 15-ish. Umm, my mom was like, "Oh, I know like vampires are a big thing right now... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: "So you should... We... I just heard about this new show called True Blood. We should all watch it together." And the first episode is like all these vampires anger-banging, like... Like so...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't sex? Like, I was gonna say, I remember my friends being like, "Just don't watch it when your parents are around."
Em Schulz: Oh, well, all I did was watch it with my parents around, apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And my mom refused to turn it down, like turned the volume down, the channel off. None of it. She was like...
Christine Schiefer: She was probably like, "What are you talking about? This is my favorite movie, Em, my favorite show."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: It was a... It was a really good memory for all of us in... In terms of like awkward laughing, because...
Christine Schiefer: Stories. Right.
Em Schulz: It's just, it's, "There Goes Mom again." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh silly, silly Linda.
Em Schulz: Anyway, she also picked The Village, and it was like someone with like a... Like a pig face mask killing everybody. It was awful.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: How did we get here? Oh, Village of the Damned. Okay, so that's what Dudleytown has been called. And it's because Dudleytown is said to have a weirdly high amount of deaths and people losing their minds.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, there's no vitamin D.
Em Schulz: See, you're already picking up on the skeptic side of things...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Mrs. Blaise. [laughter] umm, so there is also a weirdly high amount, a, weirdly high amount, apparently, of drownings, tuberculosis, and animal attacks that other villages don't seem to have, and not even the rest of Cornwall, Connecticut itself.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that's very odd.
Em Schulz: The town was said to, like I said, drive people mad or they would eventually die. Citizens were, quote, "Mysteriously killed, drowned, burned, clawed, poisoned, suffocated, bludgeoned, every vile and violent kind of death imaginable."
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Bludgeoned?
Em Schulz: Bludgeoned is crazy.
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: That one's wild. Clawed? That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: Clawed! I didn't even catch clawed.
Em Schulz: Hmm. I don't know. Which of those would you prefer? None of them, I guess.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what a fun sleepover game.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But it is what the game we would play at a sleepover, for sure.
Christine Schiefer: None, zero. Yeah, it is the most Em and Christine game ever, but also probably the worst. Uh... Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, Uh, as you were saying, a few reasons why this might have actually happened, because... So that's the... I tried to pull from a few sources, but the... The rumors have really gone rampant on these deaths, because the actual documented deaths all have like seemingly reasonable explanations.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But the rumor of this town is if you go, you'll be cursed forever or your family's gonna die, you'll die. If you try to leave after you've already moved there, you'll die. Like it's... But also everyone dies, right? So, [laughter] umm...
Christine Schiefer: And that is what I've heard.
Em Schulz: That's the... That's the big rumor we... We're all trying to debunk.
Christine Schiefer: It's the word on the street. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, another big reason why people end up leaving, 'cause it's a ghost town now, right? So... And it's not because everyone died, it's because a lot of people just evacuated just like jump ship.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And realistically, it could be because the rumors were messing with people's day-to-day lives. But also, they were in the middle of like a 24/7 dark hillside and they were farmers, like they didn't... [laughter] You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: I was about to ask, "Well, what were their jobs?" 'Cause if it was anything had to do with agriculture, I'm sure they weren't thrilled with the outcome.
Em Schulz: Yeah. People... The soil degraded very quickly. Their winters were incredibly harsh. They didn't have any crops that would survive. Their livestock would go missing in the hills. Umm, so very quickly, it became a ghost town.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Many people think that the soil can't possibly be enough reason for why this town becomes abandoned. So they think the town has to have been cursed all along. Which... Honestly, if I lived in a town with like maximum 26 families back in like the 1700s, you gotta make up stories to keep yourself interested. You know, keep yourself entertained.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Especially if it's dark. Like, you can't go play hoop and stick, you know?
Em Schulz: You know, you took the words right outta my mouth.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's what I thought.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, they thought the town has to be cursed. And there are, now, because it's been like, what? From the 1700s, that's three centuries, going on more than three centuries. There's a... A lot of time, perversions to spread, and you know, there are gonna be a bunch of different twists to whatever origin you've heard.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: But there are some major beats, umm, which we'll go with today, which is that starting in 1738, Dudleytown was settled by a farmer named Thomas Griffis, and he owned at least half the land, umm, originally. And fun fact, he thought about actually naming the town Owlsbury.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. I like that.
Em Schulz: Because it was always so dark. So it was the perfect...
Christine Schiefer: Hoo hoo.
Em Schulz: Area for all these owls every night and day.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "Nothing spooky about this. I'll move in and call it my own."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. I don't know why they didn't keep Owlsbury. But he didn't actually ever really name it. And then not even 10 years later, the first Dudleys arrived. And I guess just by having so many Dudleys in the area, they kind of claimed the territory themselves.
Christine Schiefer: Classic.
Em Schulz: I know. So the Dudleys arrive, they all have, umm, some very interesting names. Umm, I actually... I think one is Bavzillai.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Umm, a... And then other one's Abiel, Martin, Gideon. Those are less as wild as Bavzillai.
Christine Schiefer: Martin... Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Can you imagine going... I think that you're saying... Am I saying... I know I... I like am notorious for mispronouncing things, but after Googling it, I got Bavzillai.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it's... Uh, listen, I've never heard anything even remotely similar, so I'm gonna trust you on that one.
Em Schulz: Okay. So these are three to five different men with the Dudley name. They were allegedly all brothers. Some other sources say cousins. A lot of sources also say there was only three of them instead of five of them. So I don't know at all what the right version is...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But a slew of Dudley men showed up. Let's just say that.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, A... A... A Murder of Dudleys. What's like another... What's the one with D?
Em Schulz: Can I actually...
Christine Schiefer: A Dirge of Dudleys.
Em Schulz: Can I ruin something for you right now?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay, hang on.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh. Where's Em going? [laughter] Oh no.
Em Schulz: Okay. I was... Okay just because we're talking about it.
Christine Schiefer: What's happening.
Em Schulz: Umm, so I got you a present...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And ironically I got it while on my anniversary with Allison. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: And that's not ironic. That's how it should be.
Em Schulz: So I'm... If you have this book already, I'll keep it for myself. But since we're on this conversation, I got you a book and it's called A Conspiracy of Ravens.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Do you know what this is?
Christine Schiefer: I don't have that book.
Em Schulz: Do you know what it is?
Christine Schiefer: No, but. It's so f... Do I know what it is.
Em Schulz: It's...
Christine Schiefer: Is it a collection of stories or something.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Or short stories.
Em Schulz: Very short stories. Umm, as in like half a sentence.
Christine Schiefer: I don't remember.
Em Schulz: Maybe a phrase. If you'll.
Christine Schiefer: Wait really?
Em Schulz: Umm, I know you love birds.
Christine Schiefer: I do.
Em Schulz: And so this is... It goes... It tells you every book and what... Or every bird and what their group name is called.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no, I've never heard of this. Just kidding. Oh my gosh. This is so f... That is way more fun than what I... I thought it was gonna be some Edgar Allen Poe shit. This is way more fun.
Em Schulz: Umm, so you know there's a murder of crows.
Christine Schiefer: A murder of crows, right.
Em Schulz: There is an asylum of cuckoos.
Christine Schiefer: No. Of cuckoos. Like, cuckoo.
Em Schulz: Cuckoos.
Christine Schiefer: Like your cuckoo.
Em Schulz: And a curfew of curlews.
Christine Schiefer: I mean!
Em Schulz: Did you know that?
Christine Schiefer: No, I had no idea about either one of those. Em. Umm...
Em Schulz: And there's a... A paddling of ducks.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, you've got me this And I just started talking about a dirge of Dudleys?
Em Schulz: A d... Is that... [laughter] Yeah. There's by the way, uh, a confusion of guinea fowl. Did you know that they're called a confusion?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's what we're called too.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That is what we're called.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I... Just shout out to this book by the way. But, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Em, I'm gonna put that like directly behind me while we record.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Just in case I need to grab it and find out what bird... Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I literally got it like not even a week ago, and I like had been trying to figure out if I'm gonna send it to you or wait until I saw you again.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, I love it.
Em Schulz: But umm... But anyway, you had an asylum of lose... Uh, no, sorry. An asylum of loons and a mischief of magpies.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. But you know it's sort...
Em Schulz: Why... Why do... These are craziest names.
Christine Schiefer: Funny 'cause magpies do cause mischief. They like this shiny things, so they take shiny things.
Em Schulz: And you know what I learned too, because we were just at a pride bar. Is the reason that flamingos are notoriously gay. One of the reasons is because as a group they're called a flamboyance.
Christine Schiefer: Yes Precisely. And the reason that loon probably 'cause it's like you're a loon. You're loon...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You're loony.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then that makes sense with the other one. What was the other one? Umm, cuckoos, the... An asylum of cuckoos or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's cool.
Em Schulz: Anyway, for Dudleys, I guess we can pick. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's a dirge of Dudleys.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: A dirge of Dudleys. Okay. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Because it sounds dark and menacing, you know?
Em Schulz: Yes, for sure. What would, what would you be called of... Of.
Christine Schiefer: Umm.
Em Schulz: A village of Fallout Boy fans? [laughter] Or something?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: A village of one. Umm, that's a great question. I think you'd be an empire of Ems.
Em Schulz: That's the truth.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'd think I'd be...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The Christine Chapel and that's it.
Em Schulz: Population you my friend.
Christine Schiefer: And then... And then I would say, I didn't get it. I didn't get the assignment.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, a dirge of Dudleys come into Owlsbury. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Nice try.
Em Schulz: I tried. Umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: I meant to the Dudleys. Nice try Dudleys trying to take over Owlsburg.
Em Schulz: They do it pretty good because it's never called Owlsbury ever again, so.
Christine Schiefer: Damn it. Until now!
Em Schulz: Until this very moment. The Dudleys, uh, they show up and apparently they bring this curse to town. So not only are they invading the space, but they did it knowing what they were gonna do, so...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Here is the curse that they brought to the town, these Dudleys. Look at you. You are extra beautiful with the light hitting you like that.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. This light like it... When I put it over there, it makes the microphone a big shadow on my face. So I'm trying to find like where to put... I mean, you'd think I would know how to do this after seven years of podcasting and then like...
Em Schulz: I don't.
Christine Schiefer: No, I can't figure my shit out.
Em Schulz: Again, we've been doing this for six years and people have been waiting for the downfall this entire time so.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah, they're like, "Any day now and today might be the day."
Em Schulz: They're like, "Eventually you'll learn... Eventually you'll learn how to fucking light your face but... "
Christine Schiefer: I can't promise that everybody. Sorry.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. We'll... We'll... We'll go with that for now.
Em Schulz: You look great.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you Em.
Em Schulz: Look at you. Look at that jawline. Aw, aw. Look at your little cheekies. Those look nice. Good... Good face all around. 10 out of 10.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks. Thanks it's very ill.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. It wasn't like...
Christine Schiefer: Sheen and sweat.
Em Schulz: Mentioning the tummy. The tummy is zero out of 10.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That is correct. Yes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. So where were we? The Dudleys just bust down the door, they say, "I'm here." What's Taylor say? I'm the problem. It's me?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's the other shirt I made. But I didn't make it in time for the concert, but it says...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's me. But you know, everyone had that... Oh, my favorite shirt was, "It's me. Hi. I'm the dad." It's me, when like teenagers went with their dads. It was so cute.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Aww. That's actually really precious.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they show up and they bring this curse and it comes from their ancestors. And it starts all the way in 1510 in England. It starts allegedly with Edmund Dudley.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And he tried to help overthrow King Henry VIII? King Henry VII?
Christine Schiefer: What are the letters.
Em Schulz: V's and I's, man. And eventually because they found out he was trying to overthrow the king, he was beheaded and his family was cursed right before his death of, I hope your family suffers something, blah, blah, blah. I didn't get the right words. I had never even saw the words.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: But he was cursed, trust me. And so then his son, after he's been cursed, his son John also tries to take over the throne.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Crazy dude. Umm, and he tries to do this by getting his son Guildford, which like, this isn't just a random dude named John, by the way. He's like an actual duke, umm, and like his son Guildford is a Lord. So just to keep in mind, it's not like some Joe Schmoes like, I'm gonna overthrow the king.
Christine Schiefer: They're not just like villagers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I get it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's not like a J6 situation. So, umm, [chuckle] they... They...
Christine Schiefer: What's a J6 situation?
Em Schulz: January 6th.
Christine Schiefer: Oh January. [chuckle] Not like...
Em Schulz: It's not just some random Joe Schmoes thinking they're gonna take down the White House.
Christine Schiefer: I li... [chuckle] I literally thought J6 was like a boy band or something, I was like, "Oh cool. It's not like a Dream Street thing."
Em Schulz: [laughter] No, that's J... J14 is the magazine.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: The type of... Like the type that we kinda...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe that's where my brain went. I thought it was like some boy band. Anyway, I get it. It's the insurrection. Okay, cool.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ha, ha, ha. Isn't that funny?
Christine Schiefer: It's hilarious, yeah.
Em Schulz: Did we find a way to make a joke of that yet? No. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Man, always, too soon.
Em Schulz: So, uh, so Edmund, he gets beheaded and he gets cursed. His son John tries to also take over the throne by getting his son Guildford to marry Lady Jane Grey, who I feel like she's... This is like the second time we've ever talked about her, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. You talked about her in Tower of London episode quite a lot.
Em Schulz: Man, I'm... I hear little footsteps. Is it Lady Jane Grey herself?
Christine Schiefer: Or is it...
Em Schulz: No, it was Allison.
Christine Schiefer: Jonathan?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: No, they were little too dainty, umm. [laughter] Jonathan's a bit of a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. Jonathan...
Em Schulz: Barrel walker.
Christine Schiefer: Literally the walls are shaking 'cause he's throwing his hammer around.
Em Schulz: He really... He does. He's very... Is a force to be reckoned with. Umm, so he tries to marry Lady Jane Grey because she was next in line for the crown. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: For a moment, this plan actually worked where John got Guildford to marry Lady Jane Grey. She becomes queen and they thought they figured it out, but then it gets all... The whole plan gets found out and so they end up getting executed both of the Dudleys. So John and his son Guildford...
Christine Schiefer: But doesn't that why anybody got...
Em Schulz: And Lady Jane Grey.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. But isn't that why anybody got married then for like to...
Em Schulz: Please I know.
Christine Schiefer: Status?
Em Schulz: I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: I don't understand what the plan was like, obviously they got married so that he could whatever. Okay.
Em Schulz: Like no one's marrying the queen by accident like...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause like I fell in love with her and then she took off her helmet and I realized she was the queen. You know what I mean? Like what are you talking about? That's... Of course, that's why they got married.
Em Schulz: She actually, she started at the top of the stairs wearing glasses with her hair up but then she took her hair down...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And took the glasses off and everyone realized she was the queen and also the prom queen.
Christine Schiefer: But then she tripped at the bottom of the stairs because she's so relatable.
Em Schulz: She has to.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, we're all her a little bit, aren't we?
Christine Schiefer: Well, we wanna be anyway.
Em Schulz: So because of this, all three of them ends up being executed. So now that's Edmund being executed, his... His son John and his son Guildford all being executed.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But also for like all doing a crime apparently like trying to like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, apparently they knew that this was a risk they were taking, you know.
Em Schulz: But apparently they're cursed. I feel like immediately we're dealing with privileged white men who are like, "Oh, it's not my fault."
Christine Schiefer: It must be a curse. [laughter] I always say that when something's going wrong, I'm like, Ugh. It's that curse, you know? [laughter] Not my bad decision. It's not the foundation upon which I built this podcast in my life.,
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: All those irresponsible choices. It's just the curse.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sure there's a lot of people currently in prison today who are like, "Oh, it was the curse." You know?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. I don't blame them.
Em Schulz: So John's other son, not Guildford who is the third generation to be beheaded but a different son. He returns from fighting in a war in France and he ends up... You would think he's like in the clear 'cause he's like actually not doing anything.
Christine Schiefer: Well, he shows up. He's like, "Where the heck did everyone go?" "Oh, they all got beheaded."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: But so he comes home, uh, from the war and he, Uh, brings home like the plague. He's like, apparently like one of the patient zero or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Because somehow he is attached to the storyline that British soldiers are wiped out in droves from the plague.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: Umm, so somehow that's his fault. That does feel a little bit like a curse.
Christine Schiefer: It does.
Em Schulz: Umm, so he's died. Now John has a third son. So there's Guilford, who got beheaded, third generation. There's homeboy who wiped out all of a nation with the plague, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Oopsie.
Em Schulz: And then there's a third son, Robert, who left England and his descendants ended up in Connecticut, which is how we get to Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So the third son, William, umm, his descendants end up in Connecticut. And these are those like four... Three, four or five like brothers who all showed up. Maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: All at one time or different times. And they all essentially established Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: The dirge of Dudleys.
Em Schulz: The dirge of Dudleys. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Who come bearing a curse.
Em Schulz: You get it? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I get it. I'm following for sure.
Em Schulz: So there are already some issues with this story because records show that William's descendants moved to Italy, not the US.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So if a... A dirge of Dudleys did show up then maybe it's just a random other Dudley family, but then they wouldn't have the curse. Right? So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would think not...
Em Schulz: Also different...
Christine Schiefer: Unless there's some other random curse, but the odds of that seem a little silly.
Em Schulz: Also, different stories mentioned that there... Like I said, there were three to five brothers. Some of them were cousins, some of them came first, some of them came later. There's like no official story on how they all showed up there. So we don't really know the right number, the right origin, any of that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: At any rate, they all show up in Dudleytown. This village has, umm, a... Up to 26 families. At one time it was still dependent on Cornwall, but it was used as farmlands for flax, wheat and corn. So not even like interesting things in my opinion.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, now watch it.
Em Schulz: I don't know... What I keep thinking would...
Christine Schiefer: I live in Ohio. What do you think we do over here?
Em Schulz: I don't know what I would consider...
Christine Schiefer: Actually. We do soy, I'm pretty sure.
Em Schulz: I don't know what I would consider interesting. Uh, I don't know what I want them to grow.
Christine Schiefer: Eggplants?
Em Schulz: But not flax.
Christine Schiefer: Not in a gross way. Just like, I don't know. Random way.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Eggplants would be cool.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Like purple carrots or something. Something fun.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Be different. You know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm growing tomatoes right now and they're pretty fun. 'cause you can just pop them off and eat them. You don't need to like shuck them. You don't need to...
Em Schulz: I love it.
Christine Schiefer: Turn them into something.
Em Schulz: I love it. I love a tomater.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so the area was very... Was never... Sorry. It was never a good area for farming. It was dark. The soil was never good. The winters were rough. But the town did have iron ore, which they, umm, used. They had iron ore and they had timber and those were used in nearby areas, but then those places just got lumber and iron ore from other places. So they ended up not needing Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So they only were successful for like a second.
Christine Schiefer: Womp womp.
Em Schulz: Then the town again just started having oddly high numbers of death and people who apparently are going, quote, "insane" or just vanishing out of nowhere. And the only Dudley to live his whole life in Dudleytown. 'Cause there was all those brothers was just one, his name was Abiel. And he lost his entire fortune.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: He apparently did go a little looney and he couldn't pay his debts. He lost his property. He became a ward of the state at 90.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But also in my mind, like if you're 90 in the 1700s.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: You're doing pretty fucking good.
Christine Schiefer: If you're 90 now. I'm like, good for you. You know, like that's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty... You're doing it. Doing it. Right.
Em Schulz: Exactly. And also like, here's an argument like maybe he wasn't losing his mind. Maybe he was fucking 90 and like just kind of...
Christine Schiefer: I mean really. Come on.
Em Schulz: Started losing it. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Don't test my fucking, uh, rationale at 90. 'cause I promise you...
Em Schulz: At 30.
Christine Schiefer: That's not gonna be... At 30, don't test it now. That's a great point. Forget it. [laughter] Don't ever test it.
Em Schulz: So, umm, after he moved out of his house, there was a guy named Nathaniel Carter who moved into the house. And the curse seemed to follow him because... I guess it was like, because he was just so... He lived in a Dudley's house in Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. No.
Em Schulz: So Nathaniel Carter, umm, came home one day. This was years after living there. But he came home one day and his wife and kid were murdered.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And his other three children were kidnapped.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. What?
Em Schulz: His house burned down and eventually he was also murdered.
Christine Schiefer: What? Do we know by whom?
Em Schulz: So it sounds like he was in like, uh, like right in the middle of some like indigenous territory. And I don't know the history, but it sounds like there was, umm, some hostility between...
Christine Schiefer: Tensions were high. Yeah, for sure.
Em Schulz: Tensions were high.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so just by living in a Dudley house, he ended up the curse kind of, I guess transferred to him. They say...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, we stole all this land. It must be a curse that somebody is mad at.
Em Schulz: Exactly. That's what I'm trying to get at. I'm glad you're saying it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, umm, I don't know if you're cursed or you're a colonizer and you... And karma is my boyfriend.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But you know.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the weirdest thing. [laughter] Oh.
Em Schulz: So anyway, his house was burned down. I mean, I don't... I'm not like, happy that someone's...
Christine Schiefer: No of course.
Em Schulz: Wife and children were murdered. Also...
Christine Schiefer: No. There's nothing good about it at all.
Em Schulz: You can't expect to like live on like... In an area that's...
Christine Schiefer: It's just like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Not necessarily a curse. More just like, that's probably a... A risk that was gonna transpose...
Em Schulz: Not trying to fully like victim blame here, but you did put yourself kind of in that space you know.
Christine Schiefer: In a very dangerous situation. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So in 1792, there was a resident of Dudleytown named Gershon Hollister. Umm, I really wanted him to be like the Mr. Hollister of Mall Fame, but...
Christine Schiefer: What's that? Oh, oh, of Mall Fame. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I wanted him be the reason I smelled...
Christine Schiefer: I'm stuck here. Can you imagine?
Em Schulz: Like Jake Cologne for seven years, but... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was so intimidated about going into the... And somebody recently commented on one of my photos, like, "Oh, is that top from Hollister?" And I was like, "No." It was like an old photo. And I was like, "No, it was from GAP. I was too scared to go into a Hollister." Like I still...
Em Schulz: Oh I was...
Christine Schiefer: Never been in one.
Em Schulz: I was a Hollister teenager.
Christine Schiefer: I know you were. And I... I would've been so afraid of you...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, can you imagine though finding out if... If I were little and you were going to Hollister and I found out that the owner creator of Hollister's first name was Gershon [laughter], I'd be like, "Did you know that the guy who created your shirt is called Gershon?" That would be me trying to take you down.
Em Schulz: You just... Yeah. You'd try to shame me out of never wearing Hollister again.
Christine Schiefer: And you'd be like, Gershon is cool now. And then I'd be the loser again. [laughter] This is how I tell stories in my head. 'cause I'm mentally ill...
Em Schulz: Well now we're in... 'Cause your mental illness is at an all time high.
Christine Schiefer: Just all time high. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, also like grandpa names and grandma names are back. So Gershon might actually be like...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly Right.
Em Schulz: Someone's baby right now.
Christine Schiefer: It could be.
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway.
Christine Schiefer: And they're destined for great things, by the way.
Em Schulz: Were you... Were you an Aeropostale girly? Like what was your vibe? I was...
Christine Schiefer: I did, I did go into Aeropostale. That is the one, and I don't... I was kind of a...
Em Schulz: I was American Eagle and Hollister, and I think I was a...
Christine Schiefer: American Eagle was like my jam and still is... [laughter] I've not.
Em Schulz: They have great jeans.
Christine Schiefer: Outgrown.
Em Schulz: That's all I'm gonna say.
Christine Schiefer: They have great... I think they have great bras, they have great underwear. I swear. I love their... Uh, I love their stuff. Not an ad, not an ad. Not an ad.
Em Schulz: Well. Not an ad. But maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately.
Em Schulz: At 14 I would've desperately wanted it to be an ad.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for sure.
Em Schulz: But no, it's not. So Gershon Hollister, he lived in Dudleytown in 1792, and he was killed while building a barn for a neighbor named William Tanner.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Other accounts say that he didn't... He didn't die while building a barn for William Tanner, but he was murdered by William Tanner in his own home.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: After this Tanner started acting kind of wild and he started muttering about monsters that he would see come out of the woods at night.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: So if he did kill Gershon, it sounds like he was just mentally ill. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, whatever. Apparently it's the curse, so.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: In, in 1804, resident General Herman Swift of Revolutionary War fame.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. We all know him.
Em Schulz: His... His wife Sarah, was struck by lightning on their front porch in Dudleytown and died.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: General Swift also lost his mind and died shortly after. Although I would like to consider that PTSD from being in the fuckin' Revolutionary War. But okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Lost his mind. Sure. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. A lot of mental illness, but also a lot of good reasons to have...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Maybe some mental illness.
Christine Schiefer: Like understandable. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So there's also the story in Dudleytown of a woman named Mary Young Cheney, who was born in Dudleytown. Umm, and other sources said that she was just born nearby Dudleytown, but I guess proxim... Like, you know, this curse doesn't know GPS. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So maybe it's like, it kind of matters up into other spaces.
Christine Schiefer: It's just one of those mountain or something nearby.
Em Schulz: So in 1833, Mary Young Cheney leaves Dudleytown and moves into what I think I read correctly as a vegetarian boarding house?
Christine Schiefer: Cool. [laughter] Catch me there.
Em Schulz: And this sounds like a fever dream, but she moved into a vegetarian boarding house and it was owned by Dr. Graham of Graham Cracker fame.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the front door. Wait a second. This is actually starting to make sense to me.
Em Schulz: Isn't it? Tell me how.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm... I'm serious. Like I know it doesn't sound like it, but you know the whole story of the Kellogg family?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I gotta cover that one day as like a true crime story. The Kellogg fa... Like, basically, oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: Wait, can I not eat Kellogg's now? What's this now?
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. It, it's like the origin of cereal basically. Umm, the... The guy, hold on, let me find his name. Please hold. Elevator music.
Em Schulz: Is it Dr. Graham of Graham Cracker fame? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So I was right. It is the Ke... It is cornflakes like Kellogg's cornflakes.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: They were originally created in 1894 by Will Kellogg for patients at the Battle Creek Sanitarium.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: And it was... Their whole thing was that they wanted to have a place where people... I mean, this is not made up. Their patients could not masturbate, could not eat anything like tasty or enjoyable. So they basically created cornflakes [giggle] as like the meal to serve.
Em Schulz: To curb their... To curb their horniness.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, basically [laughter] umm, and you know, that is not... Don't take my word for that exact, uh, thing, but there's some really good episode, podcast episodes about this. But it is a... Talk about Looney Tunes. Like this story.
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: Is kooky. Uh, and I'm... I think John Kellogg is the one who like took it to the next level. He had this like really wild, like religious view, and it's something... Let me... Let me find. Oh, here we go. So he believed, uh, that he... His sanitarium, he promoted vegetarianism, which is why...
Em Schulz: Oh, there it is. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Which is why the connection reminded me the use of enemas. So they would like...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Constantly use enemas on these people, exercise sunbathing and hydrotherapy as well as abstinence from smoking, tobacco, drinking, alcohol and sexual activity, including masturbation. Umm, and then he dedicated the last 30 years of his life to promoting eugenics. So, uh.
Em Schulz: Weee.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh yay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's not great. Umm, but anyway, he created the invention of breakfast cereal, cornflakes. [laughter] I mean he.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Invented.
Em Schulz: A lot to discuss at the breakfast table, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he actually created these vegetarian foods for his patients and then they would be marketed. So it would not surprise me if the Graham Cracker was part of this.
Em Schulz: I wonder if he was Graham Crackers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Literally he followed the teachings of Sylvester Graham. Is that the guy's name?
Em Schulz: I just know Dr. Graham.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Sylvester Graham, who recommended a diet of bland foods to minimize excitement, sexual arousal, and masturbation.
Em Schulz: Oh, great. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, fun fact.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. Hmm. Sorry my light went up.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry to totally derail, but I got to tell you, when you said Graham, I was like, you're never gonna believe this, but I think I actually know where this is coming from.
Em Schulz: That was the most Alexander Schiefer thing I've ever seen in my life. [laughter] That was like such a... Like... By the way, I know that trivia fully.
Christine Schiefer: Did you know? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, uh, so there's a woman who lived in Dudleytown named Mary Young Cheney, and she moved into a boarding house owned by Dr. Graham.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: Where she met apparently her future husband named Horace Greeley.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I've heard of that.
Em Schulz: And he... Because he was the founder of the New York Tribune and he ran for President against Grant.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Usually, I don't know, things like that. But for some reason that name really...
Em Schulz: You just un... You just tapped a part of your brain that knew too much, and so it's all kind of spilling out now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. It's like I opened a can of worms. Oh no.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Well, so apparently a week before the election, this woman died by suicide.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh shit.
Em Schulz: And... And on top of that, he did not win the election, her husband.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, and for some reason, even though she has moved away from Dudleytown, they blame the curse on both the election results and her dying by suicide.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, geez. Okay.
Em Schulz: Which, like, neither.
Christine Schiefer: Nah.
Em Schulz: No, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Nah.
Em Schulz: Umm, also sources say that she actually had like a chronic lung disease, and so there might have been some...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Maybe she just couldn't... But it was apparently a very painful illness.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And she maybe just couldn't take it anymore. I don't really know, but apparently, because... Once you're a resident of Dudleytown, the curse follows you, which by the way, becomes a curse. Right? Like, it's just like, now you're stigmatized as someone of Dudleytown and anything that happens to you is now a curse.
Christine Schiefer: True. Like, you can't win, really. Like the curse is just part of it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So after the Civil War, many of the villagers, uh, in Dudleytown simply just packed up and moved away. They were tired of not being able to really farm that well. I'm sure again, the rumors were not helpful. Umm, maybe they really did believe, I mean, this was only... Well, this was after the Civil War, but I wonder if that means maybe like, was... I think, was that the beginning, like a spiritualism maybe they thought like there really was something dark going on there? I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What year was that again?
Em Schulz: It was just after the Civil War, so the 1860s.
Christine Schiefer: That makes... Yeah. I feel like that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so soil was, uh, very rocky, like I said. So the... Like crops were just not happening anymore. And the rumors of the town being cursed basically by the early 1900s, nobody lived there anymore.
Christine Schiefer: That fast. Wow. I thought it would've at least been more recent.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was a 100 like 70-ish years that from being established to being abandoned.
Christine Schiefer: Dang.
Em Schulz: And one of the last residents was a guy named John Patrick Brophy and his wife died from our favorite consumption.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: His kids apparently vanished into the forest to never be seen again. Although there's like a weird story that maybe the kids ran away out of shame because they had been caught stealing sled blankets. Weird.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Wait. What? Okay. Sure.
Em Schulz: Apparently this... So I think they maybe were embarrassed and like ran off or something, but that doesn't feel like...
Christine Schiefer: That is pretty embarrassing.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] Yep. What all 26 families know what happened, except they've all already moved away.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so his kids apparently just vanished right after his mom, or after his wife died. Then he started talking, apparently about creatures in the woods that he was seeing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And then one day his house burned down in a random unexplained fire, and eventually he himself vanished without a trace and nobody knows where he went.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Uh, only a few years later, Dudleytown was completely deserted and there was a doctor named Dr. William Clarke who came to Cornwall and found this like several hundreds of acres of land or how... You know, found all this land, including Dudleytown. And he was like, "I'm gonna buy this. This is all like totally private. Great." And he bought out Dudleytown on top of all that because there was no one there.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, so it became his home and he built a summer home there. Umm, and Dr. Clarke was called away for business one day, but when he came back three days later, his wife was upstairs. He found the door ajar, which is already a problem. His wife was upstairs and he found her sitting in a room maniacally laughing to nobody.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my God. What?
Em Schulz: She started talking about seeing creatures in the woods. And keep in mind, this is years after it's already been abandoned.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh no.
Em Schulz: So I don't even know what they've heard about the city.
Christine Schiefer: It's... Right. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's creepy.
Em Schulz: She was never the same and was never, never fully recovered from that. Umm, the rumors were...
Christine Schiefer: How long was he gone again?
Em Schulz: Three days.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that's not... I'm sorry. I don't think that's long enough. Like you hear people at lighthouses, like who were...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Alone for months kind of lose it, but three days, like, whoa.
Em Schulz: That's... Yeah. Wild. Maybe back then it was like a fortnight or something. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's what it... But uh, they said it was just three days. So...
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: They say that she was hospitalized or that she also died by suicide. She was also said to have a chronic illness, to be fair. So.
Christine Schiefer: Uh.
Em Schulz: I... We don't really know the official origins, umm, but Dr. Clarke did stay in Dudleytown on his own for a while. And I guess, umm, some other private owners have come in and tried to build homes there. So together they co-founded the Dark Entry Forest Association.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And Dark Entry Forest sounds spooky, but that's actually the name of the road because the whole place is dark all the time.
Christine Schiefer: That is still spooky.
Em Schulz: Yes. It is also still spooky.
Christine Schiefer: The road is called Dark Entry?
Em Schulz: Dark Entry.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus, that's so creepy.
Em Schulz: And so he created the Dark Entry Forest Association to preserve the land. Umm, although I have seen in more detail that maybe it's just a bunch of like rich people in a society who are, I don't know, they like living out in the forest by themselves and are keeping trouble away. So...
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
Em Schulz: This is everybody's reminder to drink some water. You little dehydrated rats.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. We want you to be a good old drowned rat.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you're gonna be a rat, be a drowned one, or at least a hydrated one. Okay. So since the descendants of... Uh, or since then, since Dr. Clarke created this association, and now a bunch of people are preserving the land, descendants of the Dudleys have tried to debunk the town's curse. Umm, and the Cornwall Historical Society has also joined in on this. And they're basically trying to stop people from spreading that there is a curse and, umm, in a way that's like actually giving people, you know, reasons to want to go visit. Because...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like the Dudleys are just like, "Oh, it wasn't us!"
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter] At this point though, if I was even a... If my last name was Dudley and I lived in Connecticut, can you imagine the jokes you get?
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine the comments at a bar like, "Oh, Dudleytown, oh, you cursed."
Christine Schiefer: Oh. You cursed.
Em Schulz: "Don't... Don't come near me."
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. They're just trying to clear their name.
Em Schulz: So there's one guy named Gary, of course. Gary Dudley.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And he has... He is a historian a genealogist, and he's trying to... Oh, he's back.
Christine Schiefer: Is that what that is. I was like a little... I was like, "A little rat has come knocking." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Gary Dudley, the dehydrated rat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Gary Dudley, I'm not calling you a dehydrated rat. I'm sorry. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh, no.
Em Schulz: But he decided that he was going to try to debunk the town's curse so his family could have a cleared name. Cornwall Historical Society joined in, and this is a quote from the New England Historical Society talking about what the Cornwall Historical Society has said. So the New England Historical Society, this is what they... This is a quote from their website about the Cornwall Historical Society, umm, debunking all of the stories of Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So this is a whole quote from their website. "The Dudleys of Dudleytown has no connection to the noble men beheaded in England." So immediately they're shutting it off. There is no curse.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: That's what they're saying.
Christine Schiefer: If that weren't...
Em Schulz: I feel like it's the ghosts telling me I'm wrong.
Christine Schiefer: I know. That's what I'm saying. If that weren't... If we didn't know that was Jonathan, I'd be like, "Holy shit. A ghost is having an opinion about this." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So there's no curse.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "Gershon Hollister was not murdered. He fell from a rafter during a barn raising. Abiel Dudley didn't go mad, he lived until 90 and got a little senile. The Carter tragedy of the guy who found his wife and children dead and the other ones, umm, kidnapped, that happened far away from Dudleytown. Furthermore, they lived right in the middle of, uh, a heavily aggressive territory. And his three children that were kidnapped did survive and his son became a state Supreme Court justice", apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: My goodness.
Em Schulz: "Horace Greeley's wife never even set foot in Dudleytown. So the rumors of her being born there is not true." Apparently, umm, "she died of a lung disease in New York City." Umm, one of the things that a lot of people say is super eerie and spooky about Dudleytown is that it's just wildly quiet all the time. Like no wind, no bugs, no birds. It's just eerie sounding.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: What they have to say about that is "sometime in the 1960s, Dudleytown was sprayed with DDT."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: Was sprayed with DDT.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: "So Dr. Clarke, he... When he bought the house, he only used it for weekend visits. So his wife might not have... Wouldn't have stayed if he had to leave for a business thing and the wife had a chronic disease and she couldn't stand the pain very often", that's their words. So, umm, she probably, if she died by suicide, it wasn't because she like lost her mind.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Of course. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, "Still people claim that this somewhat abandoned town has its spirits and visitors have come from all over to check it out." Umm, so they say, I don't even give a shit if it's cursed or not, we're gonna go see for ourselves. So a lot of visitors have come out. Umm, "It became a dare for locals to walk down Dark Entry Road at night, and people claimed to hear monsters and see creatures with glowing green eyes looking back at them." To be fair, that could be the hoards of owls or what are owls called? The something?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what is an owl? Oh yeah, look at your book.
Em Schulz: Umm. It's your book. I'm just here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. Look at my book. I'm trying to remember. I feel like I should know what a group of owls is called.
Em Schulz: A wisdom.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Oh, that's 'cause they're so wise.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: Anyway. Apparently a wisdom of owls. I would imagine those are the glowing green eyes and...
Christine Schiefer: But, by the way, that's like almost scarier than any sort of monster.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Just staring at you?
Christine Schiefer: Like if a wisdom of owls was staring at me in the dark.
Em Schulz: And it would make sense why you can't hear birds at night if owls were the main bird there, and they are notoriously silent.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That's a great point.
Em Schulz: Umm, people still, regardless of all of the ways that skeptics can easily break down the story all the way to the fact that the origins have a bunch of plot holes and don't make sense, and nobody even knows the right legend. People still say, "I wanna go and see some spooky stuff." At the very least, it's an abandoned village, which is definitely creepy.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And I wouldn't wanna look at that. Umm, but there's people ever since the 1940s have seen ghosts and heard of creatures in the woods, and they have feelings of overwhelming fear and sadness, and they feel themselves being suffocated and watched at night. Umm, people have...
Christine Schiefer: It could be that situation of like... Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but it could be that situation we've talked about, about like the more you talk about it and create the lore around it...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It almost develops its own identity as like a spooky place, even if it doesn't have the, like true origin.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The power of persuasion or whatever...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It might be. People have also seen lights, they've heard sounds, they've felt someone push them, scratch them. Investigators have called this area a negative power spot for spirits to travel. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. [chuckle] Sure.
Em Schulz: People have also claimed to see half man, half animal creatures with snouts on their face running through the woods at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: One teenager reportedly got attacked by a creature out there with glowing green eyes or glowing red eyes and had gashes all over him.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: I feel like he could have just maybe fallen in the woods and... Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know. Or you, it could... I... I'm still also, I would not be a 100% in disbelief of something spooky happening, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I also...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, first of all, Em is the first to believe you, whoever you are, so don't worry. We're just trying to sound intelligent.
Em Schulz: I just... This... This story, I really wanted it to come off spookier, but I also wanna do the... The people justice, especially since they have so proactively tried to make sure people don't go visit, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I understand that. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
Em Schulz: So one common report again, is that the village is weirdly silent. Umm, and for decades, this, uh, town used to actually go right through the Appalachian Trail. So a lot of hikers would go through the Dudley Woods.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: Umm, and those hikers reported hearing really weird stuff at night and seeing men with hooves, and they would see orbs in the trees and they would see UFOs, and apparently there's a... A whole, whole bunch of other like UFO adjacent stories to this area.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Now we're talking.
Em Schulz: But that also could just, I mean, that's... One day I'll have to just cover the Appalachian Trail because that's just so goddamn spooky. So.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. I would... I would die for that, Em. I... I just love the Appalachian trail and I'm so close to it now. I just... I just love it.
Em Schulz: Apparently, umm, TV crews have gone out there trying to film spooky things for their own content and equipment has broken and malfunctioned. One reporter apparently got violently ill when she started talking about the stories out there.
Christine Schiefer: Uh oh.
Em Schulz: And after years of pestering, uh, this place is haunted. Someone has to go check it out. Guess who attended? Not Zak, the Warrens.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Next best thing.
Em Schulz: The Warrens went out to check this village out. They said that they'd heard a different version of the curses origin. They thought somebody in... Uh, someone who... They thought, like one of the puritans/colonizers/religious zealots, umm, was the person to get cursed. Not someone from England in the 1500s.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I See. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, and he was the governor for like four terms here, and he killed a bunch of Quakers, and one of the Quakers cursed him. So that was the story that they had heard. Umm, and the area was found, uh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh oh, I'm sorry, I just read the wrong part. Their story, by the way, also had a lot of potholes, so I don't know if either story is accurate, but basically in the 1970s, the Warrens went there. They taped themselves in Dudleytown as like a special.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And they called it public... They publicly called it demonically possessed. And this poor town that just wanted people to leave them alone.
Christine Schiefer: I know it's not fair.
Em Schulz: Now, every paranormal enthusiast went to Dudleytown. Umm, Warrens... The Warrens. This is the most ironic part to me. The Warrens said that even if the legends weren't true, it's now officially haunted because people are now going there and doing rituals in the woods and going...
Christine Schiefer: Oh come on.
Em Schulz: Ghost hunting and summoning things. It's like you caused it to be haunted then.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's not fair.
Em Schulz: So for her to go... I'm saying her as if Lorraine's the only one, but for both of them to say, oh, it's definitely haunted. And now I can't be proven wrong because it's haunted now, even if it wasn't when I said that. So anyway, the visitors started, umm, going through here all the time. Amateur ghost hunters started coming in, teenagers around the area started trespassing and trying to like, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: They were like daring each other...
Christine Schiefer: Daring. Yeah.
Em Schulz: To stay in the woods. Umm, this led to huge vandalism and graffiti problems. Tour buses started coming through. One of the residents said that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, like tour buses. Geez.
Em Schulz: One of the residents said that he had to start like helping visitors tow their cars out because they...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Were driving in like areas they weren't supposed to be and getting their cars stuck.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. How infuriating would that be?
Em Schulz: And of course, the Warrens went right... Right to this place only a few years before the Satanic panic.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: And so now people are afraid of Dudleytown because people... There's rumors of cults going in there at night. And by the way, the Warrens did nothing to help this situation. In fact, they posted the Dudleytown address on their website. [chuckle] So, umm... Whoops.
Christine Schiefer: Oopsie!
Em Schulz: Oopsies. It even got worse in 1999 when people spread that the Blair Witch Project was based on Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Uh, and so around that time in the '90s, early 2000s, now everyone's coming in again in a whole new wave. And around the same time, lots of the land was burned in a fire when the town was hit by a lightning bolt. So then people started freaking out that this was a curse from...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Like the skies. Some people also say that this land is a vortex for spiritual energy. Umm, and nowadays, because it has to be, I think, the land is privately owned still by the Dark Entry Forest Association. Umm, but they started banning visitors. They had to start like really strictly controlling the land because so many visitors were coming in and ruining things. But that has now led to conspiracy theories about who the Dark Entry Association is.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh! I mean, they do have quite a spooky name, and they can claim that that was just based on the road. But like, you could have been the Dudleytown Association, but you chose the Dark Entry. Like, come on.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: It's spooky.
Em Schulz: I know. And also like to... I mean, you're a private, very small group of people that live in an abandoned, potentially spooky, potentially dangerous forest. That sounds like a wizards or origin story. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Right. I mean, with like owls and like spooky creatures.
Em Schulz: So some say that they're a cult using the land for their own rituals and communication with spirits.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Others say that they are keeping the vortex for themselves because they don't wanna share it with anybody.
Christine Schiefer: Pfft. They're so selfish.
Em Schulz: I love that one by the way. It just sounds like a bunch of like...
Christine Schiefer: It's kind of cool.
Em Schulz: Only children got in a group together.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's hilarious. Like they're just like... I wanna write a screenplay about that, like a sitcom pilot or something. [laughter] I just feel like that that has a lot of legs.
Em Schulz: That would actually be a great story to just do like a secret society that actually does own the secret woods and the woods...
Christine Schiefer: And they're just like... I feel like it should be a... Like a normal, just like town society, like... Like the Dark Entry Forest. And they're like, "God, will you guys stop? Like there's nothing here. We're just trying to preserve the legacy of the town." And then at the end of the pilot, plot twist, you find out like they actually do have a portal and they just don't wanna share with anyone else. TM, TM, TM, TM. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: TM for our half-assed idea. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right, right. But just in case. Just in case if we...
Christine Schiefer: Just in case.
Em Schulz: Decide at 3:00 AM we're gonna write the entire series.
Christine Schiefer: You never know folks.
Em Schulz: So some say that they're actually good people. This could be the other plot twists at the end of season two. That they're good witches who are actually protecting us from the bad curse.
Christine Schiefer: Trying to hide it. Em, now that, wait. And then the foil is someone who's infiltrated the group and is like,...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I wanna use this for nefarious purposes, but is posing as a good witch. You know.
Em Schulz: That's the one.
Christine Schiefer: TM, TM, TM.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So...
Christine Schiefer: Eva! Can you write that down please?
Em Schulz: Eva? Can you just write the series for us please? It'd be great.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't know if you saw, and I don't really listen to, umm, MFM much anymore, but Steven has... Has stepped back from MFM.
Em Schulz: Has left the building, apparently.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And it's like, it feels so monumental. He's like the third. He's... When someone asked like, "Wait, which one is Steven again?" Like my brother is somebody who doesn't listen to podcasts. I was like, well, Eva... I was gonna say Steven's the Eva of My Favorite Murder, but I was like, honestly, it's, Eva was the Steven of our show before.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, because he was kind of the... We were like, "We need someone like Steven." So I feel like Steven created such a... An entry point for so many people to be like, "Oh... "
Em Schulz: So many people.
Christine Schiefer: "That's a great, like, uh, position for a podcast." Somebody who can help us record. And I don't know. I'm just... Uh, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I mean, the on... The only reason we even knew we could get... And I mean Steven, if you're listening, for some reason we've never met, but the only reason we even thought we could have an Eva is because there was a Steven. So.
Christine Schiefer: And we were like, "What a great... I... Like as such a great idea." So we almost like modeled our posting on ZipRecruiter, not an ad, but sort of an ad, umm, based on the fact that, like... Based on Steven's job description. I was like, "Oh, what a great idea. We could use someone to help us like that." So anyway, just side note, I saw that on Instagram. And so I wanna say Godspeed to Steven. Umm, you know, whatever your... Wherever your life takes you next. And, uh...
Em Schulz: You know who told me that Steven left?
Christine Schiefer: Who?
Em Schulz: Eva.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I went, "Girl, if you ever leave us," I was like, "I don't... "
Christine Schiefer: You know who told Eva?
Em Schulz: You?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I did. But then, then she's like, "Oh, Ray just told me. So I'm like, okay. I feel like Ray... Ray and I both told her, but I forget why I was texting her separately, but I was... But I didn't say, don't leave me. She just immediately responded, "But don't worry, I'll never leave you." And I was like,...
Em Schulz: Awww.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you for reading the thoughts. I didn't even realize.
Em Schulz: Meanwhile, I threatened her. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. I was like, "I didn't even realize. I'm so glad that for once, I don't have to demand the answer from you. You'll just voluntarily say, 'I won't leave you,' without me begging."
Em Schulz: She's learned very well.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She's...
Em Schulz: That we, we need it.
Christine Schiefer: We need a lot of reassurance.
Em Schulz: No, I said... I was like, she was like, "Oh, did you know that Steven left?" And I was like, "What are you saying?" I was like, "Is that your way of saying you're out too?" [laughter] I was like, she...
Christine Schiefer: That poor woman has to like think before she says anything to us, which is like, just...
Em Schulz: I was like, "Eva, if you ever leave [laughter] like Christine and I will also leave, just so we're... It's clear."
Christine Schiefer: We will leave, we Will leave this plane. We don't know how to function. Help us.
Em Schulz: Uh, Anyway, just to end all of this, umm, this nonsense. So the Dark Entry Forest Association, they, uh, banned visitors. They have had literally since like 2014, I think they're still like having to like call the police and have them arrested if they're like trespassing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: 'Cause people still think they can get away with it.
Christine Schiefer: People are so fucking... They have no respect.
Em Schulz: And maybe they're good witches. Maybe they're... Maybe they have a cult. Maybe they wanna have the vortex to themselves and whatever the reason, umm, they just don't want the town to be explored any longer. They want nothing to do with this curse. And the Cornwall Historical Society, this is 1, 2, 3, 4 different quotes from them, umm, when discussing this curse and how they just don't want it around anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Umm, so they've written this pamphlet apparently for if you come to Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: They have a pamphlet called The True Facts of Dudleytown.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And it puts all the rumors to rest. And the Cornwall Historical Society has said, "For decades, there's been this perpetuation of misinformation. Go to Dudleytown, they tell you it's a real ghosty place. But the truth is, Dudleytown's a big fraud. If you would like to visit the forested ruins of an old building, or if you would like to visit a stunningly beautiful forest, Mohawk State Forest will satisfy your interests. And Cunningham Tower is full of eerie ambiance if that's what you're looking for."
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: "But today's owners of Dudleytown are professional people who live there for privacy and seclusion. They do not welcome tourists or those seeking tales of chilling experiences. Please do not come. There are no ghosts, no spirits, no curse."
Christine Schiefer: Aw. It's like so hard because I... I get that... Like, I feel like we've been in that position, especially at live shows when you've covered a topic locally, back when we did like local stories. And then you would say, but please don't like go over there drunkenly after this.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? Like, we can respect it from afar, like, but the people who own it, like we have to respect their privacy and...
Em Schulz: Exactly. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's a hard line.
Em Schulz: Umm, I'm like, kind of... Let, let me check. Did we co... Did I... I didn't talk about it in our book. Did I? Did we?
Christine Schiefer: Which one.
Em Schulz: Did Dudleytown? Did I cover Dudleytown?
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't believe so. I would... I feel like I...
Em Schulz: Okay, good.
Christine Schiefer: I would remember that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If I did, if I didn't put it in there enough. Don't actually go, unless like, you know, somebody from there who's willing to invite you in and also grab a pamphlet from the Cornwall Historical Society. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: While you're at it, send me one, 'cause I'm so curious about it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And, uh, but, and just sidebar too, if you want to go to Damned CT damnedconnecticut.com, they do have, umm, if you look at their Dudleytown page in the comments, a lot of people have talked about some of the spooky stuff that's happened to them. It's a lot of stuff I already mentioned where people have seen glowing green eyes or their cell phones will malfunction.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: A lot of people say spooky stuff happens. And it could all be coincidence, but it could also be like kind of a... What... What's it called when enough people have put energy toward it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, I mean, a tulpa.
Em Schulz: A tulpa.
Christine Schiefer: Is like a thought form that... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, but that's Dudleytown and I'm sorry it took like an hour and a half to get there. Done.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. I mean, I think, let's be real. That was mostly my doing. Umm, [laughter] wow. I... Listen the second you said Dudley, I was on board. [laughter] I... This is a story for another day, but at my parent's... My dad and stepmom's wedding, nope. Other way around my mom and stepdad's wedding, umm, we went to Salamanca, New York, which is my stepdad's hometown, and we stayed at the Dudley Hotel.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And that place is creepy. And so when you said Dudley in the beginning, I was like, "Oh my God, is this the same?" It is so spooky and haunted.
Em Schulz: I like how immediately you hear... You hear Dudley and you're like, they have to be connected.
Christine Schiefer: I... I mean that's what people said about the Dudley's over here and the Dudley's over in England. Okay. They made the same kind of...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Stretch. Umm, yeah, it's called the Historic Dudley Hotel. I swear to God, this place was haunted. Umm, I'm gonna send you a picture of it, 'cause like you'll just see. It's like the only hotel in town. Umm, and my dad... Uh, it's like right by a reservation, so there are a lot of locals who like go to the bar there. And my grand... My German grandfather showed up and after the wedding started buying everybody like, uh, buying the whole bar, like rounds of shots. And they partied like all night. And I just, uh, sat in the corner and drank Shirley Temples and played cards with my friends.
Em Schulz: Ohh! That's fun.
Christine Schiefer: It's a really fun place. But it's definitely spooky, umm. It's definitely spooky.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well I will say, I just looked up Dudleytown to show you a picture of it and it's all just essentially... I mean, you've seen the woods, you know? Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I have seen that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But on realtor right now, there is a house in Dudleytown that is for sale.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, Em.
Em Schulz: And it is... I know. So I'm not saying...
Christine Schiefer: How much? How much?
Em Schulz: 888.
Christine Schiefer: That's a lot.
Em Schulz: It is.
Christine Schiefer: 888.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. That seems like a lot.
Em Schulz: Also for only 1700 square feet.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And 5 acre...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. Look how old this fucking building is though. When was this built?
Em Schulz: 1783.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say that's a 1700s house friends. I have a friend... Oh sorry.
Em Schulz: It also... In 2017, it sold for like almost half of that. So I think it's just like spiked recently.
Christine Schiefer: We umm... We have friends who live in New Hampshire who live in like a 1750s or '60s farmhouse. And they texted me when they bought it and they were like, "Hey, do you think this is haunted?" [chuckle] And we were like... And Blaise said, "I'm just gonna step in here before Christine even has to." [laughter] Like, the answer is obviously... But it looks kind of like this, this is like old timey barn with like a couple of windows. Like, you know that spooky old colonial style...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: House. Yeah, it looks like that. Oh, uh.
Em Schulz: I mean, uh... I feel like if you have to ask, is it haunted?
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, I know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like what's making you even ask, you know, like read...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Read your gut feelings.
Christine Schiefer: I'm kind of loving it. I love also that they want this kind of money, but they have no photos. It's like the one photo...
Em Schulz: No photos.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the one photo of the outside and then they're like, just trust us.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking. Uh, anytime even on, I... I go on Zillow a lot and I go on Zillow truly 'cause it's 3:00 AM and I think...
Christine Schiefer: I Love Zillow all the time.
Em Schulz: I go on Zillow just to pretend that I'm a multimillionaire and can afford whatever I want. And, uh, I like to look at like the $30 million mansions or whatever. And some of them still only have one picture. And I'm like, how on earth? Like how on earth do you...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean I'll... I'll... I'll buy it in an imaginary world but...
Christine Schiefer: You know why though? Because it's probably not for us fucking looky-loos. 'Cause they're like...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: This is where celebrities live. We're not gonna show you the inside of the house and where the keypad is.
Em Schulz: You know, what's for sale right now though?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. You told me The Brady Bunch House.
Em Schulz: Five mil. That's easy. Easy money. Easy money. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Easy, Right. Patreon? I will send you a pin and or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And it might be crooked and it might have dog hair on it, but...
Em Schulz: It's... It's just a cool, easy breezy, $5 million.
Christine Schiefer: Pfffff.
Em Schulz: And, umm, but, uh... But I saw... Obviously I looked through the pictures. It actually did have pictures. And the entire inside also looks like... I mean, it's the exterior and interior of The Brady Bunch.
Christine Schiefer: If you were to buy that house, first of all, would you, if it were like in your budget?
Em Schulz: Umm, first of all, I have like $20 million, so of course it's in my budget.
Christine Schiefer: Right. So... Oh my mistake. I'm so... I'm so sorry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm... So you know what's so weird is as I thought about it and I was like, I don't think I... Well I don't think I would for a few reasons. One, because you're already spending $5 million on a house that you... You can't furnish it because like, it's already decorated for you. So like...
Christine Schiefer: That was my question. Uh, yeah, I was curious 'cause I wouldn't either, I don't... I wouldn't want it to be like exactly the way it is. Like, unless I were some huge Brady Bunch like fanatic, but I'm not.
Em Schulz: I think on principle and like... I like the like nostalgia, retro kind of vibe.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like I'm... I'm down with how it looks on the inside, but like what would I... I'm fine with that, but like, if I didn't own anything else, I'd be so stoked to go live there and it's already furnished for me and looks really cool and it looks like a television show...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That I've watched. But since I have a bunch of stuff, like I hope there's just one storage room that I could just put everything in.
Christine Schiefer: That's it. That's where it's... Yeah.
Em Schulz: And think of how much money you have to spend on a 24/7 basis for security because there's gotta be...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say then you have looky-loos like us. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And it's on a... It's on like not a major road, but it's... It's off of a major road. Like it's easy to get to.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So anyway, no I wouldn't, but I really wish I had a friend who would, you know.
Christine Schiefer: That... See that would be the ideal. Like you're one party removed so you can at least enjoy it, but you don't have to be responsible for it.
Em Schulz: I'd like to house sit, you know. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. That would be delightful.
Em Schulz: Oh, Anyway. You have to tell me about murder before we go off on Zillow 'cause I won't shut up.
Christine Schiefer: First of all, I got my water out. Umm, somebody gave this to me. I think at the Cincinnati show. I forget where, but this beautiful... Actually no, it was a different live show, but this beautiful lemon cup. Okay. That they made mean.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On their Cricut machine by the way. Uh, and so I'm... I rediscovered it recently and it's my recording cup now, so I apologize. It's lemony. Umm, but I'm trying to rehydrate myself.
Em Schulz: My... My recording cup is actually a vase. Umm, I...
Christine Schiefer: A celery vase? Oh, that's pretty.
Em Schulz: No, like a... Like a real not actually a cup. It was in the vase depart... I mean it's very big.
Christine Schiefer: But it does have a spout.
Em Schulz: I think that's to pour... Not to pour water down my gullet as I do it, but, umm, it's... I wish you could see it. My whole fist could like go in there.
Christine Schiefer: Is it like for... Uh, it looks like a pitcher.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's a small pitcher. [laughter], I... Uh, I found it at World Market and I was was like...
Christine Schiefer: It looks like World Market by the way. My favorite store.
Em Schulz: And I was like, "This would... This could be a good cup if they had a smaller one."
Christine Schiefer: It's like... The texture is really doing it for me. I love that.
Em Schulz: In a bad way or a good way.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. Best way.
Em Schulz: I Love it. I think she is so cute.
Christine Schiefer: It it looks so delightful. It's like those Starbucks cups we talked about that have the...
Em Schulz: Uhh. I love her and I... 'Cause she's got good grip, that's why. But I...
Christine Schiefer: Listen, I'm a basic bitch with my Stanley Cup and this probably holds more... More water than your giant pitcher, so don't feel bad. Like...
Em Schulz: Okay cool, that... Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Like this is meant to be a cup and it's outrageous. So I think you're okay.
Em Schulz: Well, I was looking for an actual cup version of it in World Market. 'Cause I was like, it was literally in the vases... [laughter] And I was like, I guess anything can be a cup if you want it to be. So I just bought it.
Christine Schiefer: I mean that's... That's the attitude that I'm here for.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So I support you on that.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I did quite a lot of talking and I'm... I... I'm excited for you to regale me. And also I'm excited for Jonathan to leave because I hate this. [laughter] But umm, please distract me until that's true.
Christine Schiefer: Happily. Umm, I'm really excited about this one because, uh, our wonderful researcher, Molly Anne, reached out a few months ago and said, "Have you heard about this?" And sent me this TikTok and I went down this kind of rabbit hole because I had not heard of it, and it seems like something I should absolutely have heard of and I cannot wait to tell it to you. This is the eBay stalking scandal.
Em Schulz: What? It's giving Craigslist killer.
Christine Schiefer: It is, but in a totally different... You'll... It... You...
Em Schulz: I'm gonna love it. I already know.
Christine Schiefer: You have no idea what's coming. It is...
Em Schulz: [laughter] I'm so excited.
Christine Schiefer: A wild ride. Uh, so I'm gonna just gonna hop into it. Umm, and it's also a relatively recent story. Like this starts back in the '90s with like, the rise of eBay and these ecommerce sites...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: But, uh, the actual crimes took place in 2019. So it... It's a much more recent, uh, story than I at first realized.
Em Schulz: Cool.
Christine Schiefer: So. Oh, Em, it's such a doozy! Talk about like... This is like the stuff that those HBO documentaries like three parters are made of, like the Jared Fogle.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Like the... This is one of those stories where you're like, what the... How? Like, how have I not heard about this? So I'm sure something's in the works 'cause it was so recent. Umm, if not, hit us up. Uh, HBO, Netflix, whoever wants to get in on it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Christine wants to be a talking head.
Christine Schiefer: Quibi do you exist? I...
Em Schulz: Christine wants to be a talking head.
Christine Schiefer: My dream! Get me a talking head. Come on. Okay. This is the eBay stalking scandal. So, Em, we all know eBay, right? Uh, it's famously one of the first ecommerce websites to ever exist. Umm, and do you... Have you ever heard the, uh, kind of urban legend of how eBay was created or founded?
Em Schulz: Mmm...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I hadn't heard it, so don't feel bad if you haven't, but...
Em Schulz: I feel like someone's told me I don't rem... I truly don't remember.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you mi... I bet we've heard it before. I didn't remember, but apparently there's an old story that the founder of eBay created the site to get rid of his wife's overwhelming Pez dispenser collection? And that's how it started.
Em Schulz: Oh. You know where I learned about that from? I wandered myself into a Pez museum one time.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And that was one of their fun facts on the wall.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Yes, I do know about that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, it's not true, which is why I said...
Em Schulz: Ahh.
Christine Schiefer: It would be urban legend about how it got started.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, by the way, the Pez Museum definitely told me all about that. Oops.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh let's just say they were doing it tongue in cheek so that we don't get in trouble. Umm, yeah, it's funny. Obviously it's a great story, but it's not true. So here's what actually happened. The man who created and launched eBay, uh, he... His name is Pierre Omidyar, and he was a French born man living in Silicon Valley in San Jose, and he launched eBay over Labor Day weekend of 1995. Now, over this holiday weekend, while he was at home in San Jose, he was writing code on his personal computer and he launched a website, which at the time he called Auction Web. And he was just kind of playing around like, you know, everyone is out on vacation doing the long weekend and he's at home writing code. And, uh, it was all worth it because he created this website called Auction Web, and he described it as a site, quote, "Dedicated to bringing together buyers and sellers in an honest and open marketplace." The first item up for bid, Pierre posted his old barely functional laser printer for sale for a whopping $1.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And if anyone ever asks you a trivia, what was the first item up for bid on eBay? That is what it was.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Great.
Christine Schiefer: So people actually bid on it and they're not sure nowadays, like internet historians are not sure if it was just for the novelty of bidding on something like...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: An auction online. I mean, that's kind of a wild, and it's... It's low stakes, it's a dollar. Umm, and so people started bidding and it sold to a man in Canada for $14 and 83 cents. And uh...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Pierre was like, "Cool, this is working." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, you...
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: It's interesting. Does that mean only like 14 people bid?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was like a small amount or... Oh, I don't know how many specifically, but yeah, probably around there, it's probably a small number.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: But you know, for somebody to start their first website and put one thing up and then it's already drawing in, you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Viewers, uh, it just started to work. And so the rest kind of is history. So eBay as it later became known, uh, quickly gained popularity. And in the late '90s, its founder and staff largely credited the Beanie Baby craze with the massive growth of eBay.
Em Schulz: Mmm!
Christine Schiefer: Which I also...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Also found... Found very interesting. It's almost like all of these, uh, zeitgeisty phenomenon were like intertwined [laughter], you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so people joined the site to buy and sell their Beanie Babies and they would stay for other purchases. And so Pierre's original $14 and 82 sale turned into his current net worth, which is estimated to be $13 billion.
Em Schulz: Oh, whoa.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Whoa. Right.
Christine Schiefer: And you should see this guy, you should look up Pierre Omidyar in like 1995. Like, he looks just kind of like the dorky like, uh, computer nerd who's like at home writing code while everyone's at the barbecue.
Em Schulz: Look at him.
Christine Schiefer: Right? And now he's a fucking $13 billion...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: High flying macho man.
Em Schulz: That's incredible.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's crazy. Talk about like...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Rags to... If not rags to riches, but $14 to 13 billion is pretty wild to me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Holy crap. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so just last year to give you an idea of how eBay has become, uh, one of the leading ecommerce sites in the world, still to this very day. Uh, just as an idea, last year in 2022, users sold over $70 billion worth of products on eBay.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: 70 billion in just one year.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Basically, the sheer size of eBay's online market is like unfathomable, like it's impossible to comprehend, and of course, with that amount of wealth behind it, there is opportunity for people to... What a shocker, abuse their power.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and you... And you said there were... You said 70 billion last year, right?
Christine Schiefer: In 2022, yep.
Em Schulz: Wow. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: That's... And that's just... That's just the amount of money that people sold their items like everyday folks...
Em Schulz: Wow!
Christine Schiefer: Were selling stuff. So that's not to say... You know, I don't know how much the top are making, I don't know what their incomes are like, but it must be out of control.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Being at the top of this kind of a company.
Em Schulz: 10 billion of it was probably me with Pokemon cards, just so... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Might 'been, Em, you could have... You know... You could have bought that... Uh, that whole town of, uh...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking Dudleytown, but no you had to go by your Pokemon cards.
Em Schulz: I know, I know.
Christine Schiefer: So, Ina and David Steiner, this is the main couple at the center of this story. They live in Natick, Massachusetts, which is about 40 minutes outside of Boston. And early in their marriage, uh... So they've been together for 30 years at this point. But early in their marriage, they both began working from home together. And I kind of love this because, you know, 30 years ago, you're thinking... Like the Internet is very young, it's like the '90s, uh, and they...
Em Schulz: We're all just playing... We're all just playing pinball.
Christine Schiefer: We're playing pinball... We're... We're... We're playing Minecraft, or even though we don't get what it is, we're...
Em Schulz: You mean Minesweeper. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean... [laughter] Did I say Minecraft?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Nowadays, I'm playing Minecraft, have no fucking clue what it is, just getting off... I'm not playing it...
Em Schulz: Well, what's the difference really there are all squares? They're all cubes.
Christine Schiefer: What is the difference? It's all a bunch of squares. We invented Minecraft, you know? [laughter] So anyway, I just love the idea that this couple in the '90s was like, "Let's get into business together, work from home and work on the internet." Like when it was so early and the traditional...
Em Schulz: Ahead of their time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, way... Way ahead of their time. And I love that they did it together.
Em Schulz: That's precious.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And so the cup... Oh wait, I have a photo of them. I meant to send this to you because... Like right... Right now, because I just was like, these... These folks, man. Actually, I'm gonna send it to the group.
Em Schulz: What was their company?
Christine Schiefer: I will tell you, momentarily.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm just gonna say in 2023, if they... If they said, "Oh, we're gonna work from home together," it'd be like, Yawn. We're all doing that. But...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, and...
Em Schulz: Look at them.
Christine Schiefer: Look at them. We're gonna put this on Instagram folks, but they are just... This is like later on into their business. Umm, but as you can tell, it's a... [chuckle] It's an online business where they are kind of in cahoots with these ecommerce sites, so.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Let me give you a little more of a description. So the couple of themselves were early fans of eBay and other ecommerce websites, and they were so passionate about the world of online marketplaces that they decided to start a newsletter!
Em Schulz: Ooh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they launched a news website called EcommerceBytes, as in B-Y-T-E-S, like, like bytes of... Pieces of ecommerce, not like, uh, ecommerce blows, man. Not...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ecommerce bites, you know but...
Em Schulz: Genius.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Bytes of...
Em Schulz: You know...
Christine Schiefer: Information.
Em Schulz: In fifth grade we... I was at a play called Bits and Bytes.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm!
Em Schulz: And it was about the digital age, and it was a bunch of computer viruses hanging out together. [chuckle] It was like...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what?
Em Schulz: It was clearly, uh, like a play that was... That someone had just written because like computers were all the rage for kids. And so...
Christine Schiefer: I love looking back at those where they were like, Wow, they thought they were on to something and they were not.
Em Schulz: Like it was so topical Bits and Bytes, and I... I think the bad guy was a computer virus, but we were all computer somethings.
Christine Schiefer: What was your role?
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine, very foreshadowing, I truly needed Propranolol at 10 years old for this, because it was one of those plays where you all just stand on the stage and like step out and say a line, and that's it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: And I couldn't imagine the idea of being up there. And so I tried to go to my teacher, which by the way, at 10 years old with confrontation issues was so brave of me.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: To be like, "I can't get up there and say anything." And they went "Well, you have to." So they basically gave... They made me the narrator where I had to say the most things.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's not fair!
Em Schulz: It was cruel, it was so fucking cruel. And I thought I was gonna fall over and die the entire time, umm, but anyway, Bits and Bytes but not like bites here but like computer bytes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm proud of you. So the reports covered all things ecommerce, from stocks to sellers concerns, Ina did the writing and reporting, and David handled the behind the scenes business end. They were basically a power couple, just kind of documenting the ins and outs of the ecommerce world. And so they had these subscribers following for like industry news. Like you know now how there are newsletters about like podcast news and like acquisitions, and this is what they were writing about, but just in the scope of ecommerce.
Em Schulz: Okay, got it.
Christine Schiefer: So in an interview, Ina explained, "We cover industry news, so what I do is I follow what's happening and how it impacts sellers." So when major changes on ecommerce websites rolls out, basically sellers could rely on Ina and David for accurate information like, "Oh, what's shifting? What tools are they adding on eBay, What's coming next?"
Em Schulz: So smart.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like it's a really useful tool. And they have 600,000 readers,
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Which to me seems like quite a lot. Uh, most of those are online merchants, so people who are like small businesses and are selling, umm, their goods and services and wares on these websites. And, uh, rely on Ina and David's website to kind of make sure they are on the right track and up... Up to speed with all the... The fast paced changes on these websites, like eBay.
Em Schulz: In the digital era.
Christine Schiefer: The digital era of the Bits and Bytes. So even though 600,000 readers, most of them are online merchants, the Steiners were always aware that there were kind of other high, high-flying folks who were also following these reports, because much like the trades uh for TV for, now podcasting umm... Not only do like kind of the small time, like podcasters like us have to follow or like to follow these kinds of things, but the big high ups at companies, like... I don't know, I'm trying to think, like iHeart or just as an example, like also follow this kind of news.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so they definitely had some big wigs that also followed and subscribed to their newsletter to see what changes were being rolled out on other websites just to keep kind of their finger on the pulse. So eventually readers started reaching out to Ina with specific issues they were having as sellers on sites like Etsy, Amazon, and eBay. And Ina never ever set out to report anything in bad faith. She wasn't biased against any particular website, but she only wanted to platform these sellers voices, like the ones that were having problems to give them space to say back to the companies like, "Hey, this isn't working for us, this is my small business."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: "And eBay has done this, that, or the other, and it's... It's hurting my business." So she wanted to make sure they elevated the voices of these small businesses that were... Were selling on these websites.
Em Schulz: Love that.
Christine Schiefer: Love it. Otherwise, you know, if a person were to reach out to eBay and say, "Hey, I'm having a problem with X, Y, Z," that's probably gonna get lost in like a, you know, customer service email inbox and probably nothing's gonna get done. So if it's in this like more professional, umm, released, uh, newsletter that actual bigwigs are reading, maybe they'll take note.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Ina created a dedicated section of the site for user reports where users could go in and report the issues they were having on specific websites. And she said she wanted it to be a conduit for sellers to tell their problems, tell their issues, and share information. So people took interest, industry observers, and even Wall Street contacted Ina and David sometimes to get the scoop on like these ecommerce giants because Ina and David knew all the behind the scenes. Like they got intel from all these folks.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine just working from home and Wall Street is calling you?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's like 1995. You're like, I guess we'll start this fun little blog and then like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Suddenly Wall Street's on the phone. [laughter] Like, what is Amazon doing? [laughter] We must know. And that's kind of where this goes, Em. So buckle the fuck up. Okay. Like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Remember, this is a true crime story. It's outta control.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So... And just like... I feel like you would've said something, but you don't know this story, right?
Em Schulz: Not at all. No.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I had not heard of it ever either, so, umm, you and me both. So, I mean, if you think about it, the Steiners were reporting on multi-billion dollar corporations.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they had like 600,000, uh, followers, a lot of whom were the reason that these companies were billion dollar companies. They're selling on these websites. They need these people to be loyal to them. Umm, and they never really imagine that these multi-billion dollar companies would feel threatened by their kind of reporting, 'Cause it... It was...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Just like more small time reporting.
Em Schulz: Well, I'm sure they'd...
Christine Schiefer: It was a newsletter.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I was gonna say there's no way that they thought there was gonna be like actual credible people watching them or, you know, enthusiasts that are relying solely on their opinion or their... Their work. You know, there's no way.
Christine Schiefer: Who are taking it so seriously. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. So most of all, the Steiners believe that the sellers on these websites had a right to know about what was going on behind the scenes on these websites that they were using and subsequently like giving money to as a cut every time they sold something. So they felt like this is the right of the people to know what these billion dollar corporations are up to. So this went on very smoothly for about two decades. Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they were living the dream, like had a very loyal following. And that all stopped on August 8th, 2019.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Whoa! It's that recent.
Christine Schiefer: It's that fucking recent.
Em Schulz: I've been still imagining them in like... Like...
Christine Schiefer: The picture I showed you.
Em Schulz: 1990s. Yeah. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they've been doing... First of all, they must be... I'm sure they already were eventually, but in my mind, I still thought of them as like sitting at home in their den together versus like having a full ass company. They have to have like a full ass company now. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know, I... I don't know how big the company is. I think it's still relatively small.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And I don't know whether they still work out of their home. I'm not sure.
Em Schulz: But they're still...
Christine Schiefer: I believe they do.
Em Schulz: But they're still heavily relied on for trends and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Things like that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Wow. Good for them.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I was like so impressed because I'm like, you start a business in the '90s based solely on the internet. Like you have no idea where that's gonna go.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, based solely on the internet, when it was so new, it's not like now you've started...
Christine Schiefer: Exact... You couldn't predict any trends. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You were just like... This is my best guess of something that everyone is unsure of. So like I almost feel like back then you had a better chance at Wall Street paying attention to you, 'cause there was only one of you.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Not like 3,000 TikTokers exactly like you.
Christine Schiefer: That's so true. And it's like, how do they even... Like I bet at Wall Street and those people were probably like, "Wait, how do they get all this aggregated information in one place?"
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like websites are a new thing. Like usually you'd have to read the trades, read the paper. Umm, but like, I just went on the website and it's funny 'cause the website, this is not meant to be offensive, but it really does look kind of like an old time... Like it looks like it has not changed that much, like it's very simple. Umm, it's still called EcommerceBytes Blog. Umm.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna look it up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Ecommerce.
Christine Schiefer: Bytes with a Y.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Wow. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right? Okay.
Em Schulz: It's not... It's nothing... Nothing to write home about.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But then you scroll down, it says Etsy Adds Weekends to Processing Times. So for sellers it's like, oh, this is so crucial to know.
Em Schulz: That's wild. You know what's...
Christine Schiefer: Do you know what I'm saying?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know what's shocking though is like when they first started doing this and paying attention to all the online companies out there that are... That were doing sales, there was like maybe 20? And now like, how do you keep up with Etsy?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: How do you keep up with Redbubble? How do you keep up with...
Christine Schiefer: So you are right.
Em Schulz: Costco gift cards.
Christine Schiefer: They must have a team.
Em Schulz: Amazon online. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And PayPal and all this, like... I mean, there's, uh, new eBay...
Em Schulz: I mean, there's...
Christine Schiefer: New eBay's... New eBay glitch. This is from last week. Like... So people who sell and make a living on these websites like rely on this site to make sure they are getting the information if there's a glitch, if there's like a holiday delay that they weren't aware about.
Em Schulz: They really must have at least like one person at each company... Like major company.
Christine Schiefer: I would hope so. I wonder if they have like a team or some page on here. I don't know. But it... It's pretty wild because, uh, it looks so old school. Umm, but it... It's... It does what it says it does... It says, "Does what it says on the tin?" You know, like they are helping the people who are merchants on these sites, and need guidance and...
Em Schulz: Wow. And they also have all of the... Just scrolling down, they have the full archives. You can see everything from at least 2012.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's pretty... That's pretty fucking cool.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. This is just crazy.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. And so to think like, they've been doing this for almost 20 years in 2019, so that's only like half, up to 2012 that means like they'd been doing it...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For about 10 years earlier than that. So in any case, uh, everything has been going great for them. Right? They're building this... They're, they're relied on by these bigwigs. They're an important part of this whole machine they've got going online until August 8th, 2019. That morning Ina and David woke up to some strange emails in their inbox. They had unknowingly been signed up for hundreds of newsletters that they had never even heard of.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Some of these included the Satanic Temple, Irritable Bowel Syndrome News... Oh, wait, no, that's just mine. I'm just kidding. [laughter] I am off doing that as well.
Em Schulz: That is both the... They're definitely both in your email, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also I'm mad at whoever thought that would be like a funny joke, 'cause I'm like, you know what? Fuck off. Don't make fun of people with IBD and IBS.
Em Schulz: I do like your joke though. That was...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Umm, Sin City Fetish Night, the Communist Party and dozens of others. So apparently somebody had signed them up for all these newsletters overnight.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And like, there is a form of harassment where people will sign businesses, public emails, up to newsletters as like, just a form of like blasting them.
Em Schulz: Spamming.
Christine Schiefer: Spamming them. And so, you know, at the end of the day, I think I would've taken this the same way. I would've been like, "Ugh, somebody's just like spamming us... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Putting our email in. Umm, 'cause our email's obviously like easily accessible." So a few changes in email cell... Settings, they were able to filter that to spam, and they thought, "Well, that's the end of that." Unfortunately, it was not, because these emails were only the beginning of a massive, terrifying, terror campaign against the Steiner family.
Em Schulz: Oh no. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, the next thing that happened after these emails was they started getting outright threats on Twitter. Anonymous accounts were sending them tweets, like, "Shut up or else", uh, many of the messages were more detailed. And I watched a 60 Minutes, uh, episode on this and they couldn't put in kind of the more...
Em Schulz: Graphic stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Upsetting and graphic stuff. But there were definitely a lot of swear words and descriptions of violence against Ina and David. The account was called TopSeller13. And, uh, I used [chuckle] 'cause I... 'Cause I'm me, I used the Wayback Machine. 'Cause I was like, "Well, I gotta find this account." Right.
Em Schulz: Obviously.
Christine Schiefer: And since it's no longer in existence. I use a Wayback Machine and I found a few results. Umm, basically they were, uh, campaigning against them and trying to like rally people against EcommerceBytes saying that EcommerceBytes, Ina and David were hurting small businesses by pushing people to Amazon. And one of the tweets said, "Guess I have to pay them a visit."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Like just outright threat. Uh, and then anytime somebody... Anybody critiqued eBay, they'd respond, "Watch your mouth."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Or like, "I'll come after you." Like bizarro threats. And now David and Ina are like totally reeling. They're like, wait, whoa, this has been like kind of a mom and pop thing for two decades.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And like, what happened? Umm, three days later, they received a voicemail about an order that had arrived at their home. And the voicemail said they couldn't fulfill the order because it was, uh, for a wet specimen.
Em Schulz: Ew. What...
Christine Schiefer: David called back and asked what a wet specimen even is.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It was a pig fetus.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Ohh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Someone had tried to have a pig fetus delivered to their home.
Em Schulz: How do you even send that in the mail?
Christine Schiefer: Great question. Apparently you can't because it's a wet specimen. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, right, okay. Yes. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No, but apparently somebody tried, umm, and Ina at this point said her heart sank because this meant someone knew their home address.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That, for sure.
Christine Schiefer: You know. That... That's when it starts to feel like it's not just cyber bullying or cyber stalking. Like this is real. So that's when she also obviously put everything together and realized the emails and tweets weren't just like some random troll. Someone was actually going out of their way to try and get them. And it must have been somebody who was pissed with whatever Ina was writing on the website.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The Steiners were desperate for answers, but they couldn't imagine who would go to such great lengths to harass them. So they decided to... This is the first time that they involved the police at this point. They wanted to be taken seriously, and they knew they might not be. So the officer arrived and took the report, and I wanna say luckily/unluckily, a package had been delivered as the police officer was there taking their report. So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He was... He was like, "You open that and I'll wait right here so I can see."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause of course, like of all times, you want somebody there, a third party, like it's... It's to witness whatever's about to happen. She opens the box at first all she can see is flesh and hair.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She shrieks.
Em Schulz: What is it?
Christine Schiefer: Turns out it's a pig mask.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which is interesting 'cause you brought up a pig mask earlier. Uh, this is specifically the pig mask from the movie Saw, uh.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Which the villain wears as he tortures his victims to death.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and guess where else they had seen that mask? Well, it happened to be the profile picture of none other than TopSeller13.
Em Schulz: Oh fuck.
Christine Schiefer: So ding ding, ding. They are sure now that this is who is harassing them. Things only escalated, their neighbours started getting pornography mailed to their address, but had David Steiner's name on them so it like looked...
Em Schulz: Ugh, to make it look bad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. To make it look like it got sent to the wrong address. But he was ordering like teen porn and all this like, you know, fucked up stuff. Umm, the mail harassment continued. They received boxes of live cockroaches. Live spiders.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Someone even anonymously posted the Steiner's home address all over social media and on Craigslist advertising events at their home, like yard sales and sex parties to the public.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, this is just like...
Em Schulz: This is very, umm, the bad version of what Anonymous did. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It is a similar concept. Like somebody is...
Em Schulz: I mean, there's people out there who do like that... Remember, like swatting. Did you ever hear about that?
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: That's so scary. That's so scary.
Christine Schiefer: It's so fucked up. It's so fucked up. And... And so it's already like really, really scary. But it gets even scarier because a few days later, uh, a package arrived addressed specifically to David, not Ina this time. And it was a book, the book was called Grief Diaries, Surviving Loss of a Spouse. Yeah.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: And a few days after that, an expensive and elaborate funeral wreath arrived on their doorstep.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Basically this was an elaborate, blatant death threat against Ina...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Who was the author of all of these blog posts. So in that 60-minute special, David told reporter, Sharyn Alfonsi, "I was terrified I was gonna lose her." And this is actually the part where he gets the most emotional.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Because it obviously was like so jarring. So the Steiners became so afraid that they actually started sleeping in separate rooms at night. Like hoping if somebody broke in, at least one of them would be in a different spot to like trip up.
Em Schulz: Oh, to like save each other.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Call 911. Umm, over the weeks a rental van with New York plates cased their house. And they saw it pass by several times in one day. Had no idea who it was. They installed security cameras, but they didn't have a full alarm system installed yet. So they put a cart with baking trays on it in front of the door. So that...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is like such a Christine move at a hotel like,[laughter] so I'll hear it if somebody's trying to break in. And then one night at 4:30 AM,...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Worst time for anything to happen, a man showed up at the Steiner's house and poor David was already awake because he was too stressed to sleep. So he saw this man approaching the door and terrified he... They screamed at him and called the police. But unfortunately, umm, it turned out to be a pizza delivery driver. But somebody had ordered pizza to their house in the middle of the night just to fuck with them.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So it was these same people, but they were like, oh, what? You don't run a little pizza at 4:30 in the morning?
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Like they're just outright harassing these people. Then David began to notice he was being followed around town once by a van and then later by a car. And he actually managed to get a photo of one of the licence plates. Go David. And that is when authorities could finally make a break in this case.
Em Schulz: Thank God.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, 'cause I feel like these things never...
Em Schulz: Christine, you're stressing me the fuck out.
Christine Schiefer: I know. These never end well.
Em Schulz: Stressin' me out.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sweaty. These never end. Well, they always get... But... But we got it. We got it. We... We... We've got a break. Detective John Haswell took the lead on the case and he ran the licence plate through the system, finding out it was a car rental. So he contacted the rental car place and found out that it had been rented by someone named Veronica Zea. And, uh, she had rented that vehicle during the time period that David was being followed.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Detective, Detective Haswell hadn't actually spoken to the Steiners directly yet. He had only heard the reports. So he called them and he said, "Hey, do you know anyone by this name, Veronica?" And they said, "No, we've never heard of this person before." Umm, but before the police could even like, run any check on who this person was, Ina just googled the name and found out. Oh, that's weird. Veronica Zea is an executive at... At eBay.
Em Schulz: [gasp] What! That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's fucking crazy. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She said, "I cannot describe how flabbergasted we were. Was it eBay did... That did this to the... To us?" I mean, it was inconceivable. So a sergeant on the case tracked the rental car to the Ritz-Carlton Hotel where Veronica was staying in Boston and he called her from the lobby and he said, I fully expected her to come down, hand me a business card and say, I'm from eBay. We're doing an investigation on all this. So we drove past the house, but Veronica told the sergeant she had a conference call and would have to wait. She never came down. And eventually he had to leave, and Veronica then peaced out of town before ever talking to the police.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So red flag. Meanwhile, Detective Haswell discovered that the funeral wreath had actually been purchased with a gift card at a grocery store only eight miles from eBay headquarters in Silicon Valley.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Security photos showed Veronica purchasing the gift card. So Detective Haswell turned the case over to the FBI.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Now, this investigation lasted 10 months, and then the US Attorney in Massachusetts made an announcement. He had held a press conference announcing that they were indicting six eBay employees and a contractor in a conspiracy to commit cyberstalking case as well as conspiracy to tamper with witnesses.
Em Schulz: So there were seven of them?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Why? Why did they hate them so much? Also... So wait, for those 10 months of investigation, there was still 10 months of further bullying right?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It seemed like when they started to kind of put the pieces...
Em Schulz: Stick around.
Christine Schiefer: Together that maybe they drew back.
Em Schulz: Yeah, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not... I'm not totally positive. That's a great question though. The US Attorney said at a press conference, the complaint alleges that the victims were targeted because eBay executives were unhappy with the coverage of eBay on the couple's website. In 2019, eBay's then CEO, so this is where the gargoyles come out. 'Cause you're need to track these people...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: There are a lot of white dudes with boring names. Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So eBay's then CEO Devin Wenig.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sent his colleagues a link to an article that Ina had written about his paycheck. She wrote that he made more than 152 times the salary of a typical eBay employee.
Em Schulz: First of all, good fucking for her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She's basically calling out.
Em Schulz: She's whistle blowing.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And it's like, not even like a secret, she's just fucking pointing at it and saying...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, just FYI.
Em Schulz: And by the way before you go any further, leave it to this fucking privileged man who like, instead of doing something about being called out, he's going to go send you death threats for the rest of your life. Are you fucking kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, literally yes. So you're exactly onto it, because he sent this article, right? To a group of high powered executives at eBay, one of whom was called Steve Wymer. So there's Wenig, who's the CEO and Wymer, who is the CCO, the Chief Communications Officer.
Em Schulz: And Steiner, who's... Who's...
Christine Schiefer: There probably will be a Steiner eventually. Wait, is there a Steiner?
Em Schulz: Isn't Ina and her husband, aren't they Steiners?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. They're literally the Steiners. Sorry. You're 100% right. I thought you meant like in this eBay CEO.
Em Schulz: No, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: You're right. The Steiners, it's very confusing. So there's a Wymer, a Steiner...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The Steiners are the good guys. So Steve Wymer, who is the, CCO of eBay, replied in this chat, "We are going to crush this lady."
Em Schulz: [gasp] What a fucking sick man. And by the way, this is a reminder to everybody that like people... People with, umm, heavy narcissism or like issues like that they are known to end up in CEO roles and like...
Christine Schiefer: Yep!
Em Schulz: Like high managerial roles. So of course his first thought is, I'll destroy them versus...
Christine Schiefer: Yep. For saying the truth out loud.
Em Schulz: For saying the truth that hurt your little ego for a second.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Precisely. And made you look a little bit bad, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So CEO... So Steve Wymer responds, "We are going to crush this lady." CEO, Devin Wenig, who had originally sent this article to the group wrote, "Take her down."
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, gross. I just can't stand this.
Christine Schiefer: Are you kidding me? It's crazy. So on August 1st, 2019, Ina wrote a post about a lawsuit eBay had filed against Amazon. And although it was a couple of paragraphs and contained only a light note of skepticism about how, uh, CEO Devin Wenig was handling this merger, this acquisition, or this lawsuit, I'm sorry. Even though there was just like a light note of skepticism, umm, the CEO was irate. And 33 minutes after the EcommerceBytes article went up, he texted Mr. Wymer again, the CCO, he said, "If you are ever going to take her down, now is the time."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And Mr. Wymer responded, "On it."
Em Schulz: Ew.
Christine Schiefer: He then texted another eBay executive named James Baugh and texted him the following, "Hatred is a sin, I am very sinful."
Em Schulz: Barf. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Right? It's embarrassing.
Em Schulz: You know he fucking thought about that the night before and he went to bed thinking about it like, this is gonna fucking kill tomorrow. Let's go fuck him.
Christine Schiefer: I know. By the way these bullets that I have here are specifically pulled from the New York Times article that went into really great depth about this story. And it says, "'Hatred is a sin,' wrote Mr. Wymer the son and grandson of Baptist pastors."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Quote, "I am very sinful." So I love that...
Em Schulz: I love whoever wrote this.
Christine Schiefer: Little sprinkle in there. Yeah. So Mr. Baugh signaled that he was ready to escalate the situation, and he responded, "Amen. I want her done. She is a biased troll who needs to get burned down."
Em Schulz: Said the lover of Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Said God's own little lamb. [laughter] So Mr. Wenig was going to... To Italy on sabbatical, I guess as CEOs do, umm, for Aug... For the month of August. So, EcommerceBytes, he said, needed to be taken care of before he returned from his sabbatical.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So basically they took it under... They took this plan and decided to plot it out very, very specifically. So this harassment campaign began, of course, with a movie, Mr. Baugh showed clips from a 1988 teen comedy called 'Johnny Be Good' in which, and this is a direct quote from the New York Times, "In which a villainous football coach must deal with a host of pests arriving at his house simultaneously. A delivery guy with hundreds of dollars of unwanted pizza, singing and dancing Hari Krishnas and their elephant, a rodent exterminator, a male stripper.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Mr. Baugh asked the analyst for inspiration, one of them suggested sending the Steiners a coffin." So...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: This is basically where they roped in a group, uh, of contractors and other people high up at the eBay team to say, we need to get some details down and we need to get this rolling stat.
Em Schulz: So it just sounds like the entire executive board of eBay was just in a fun little...
Christine Schiefer: Just like fucking...
Em Schulz: Game together.
Christine Schiefer: Chilling with it. They were finally bonding. You know, none of those icebreakers worked, so they were like...
Em Schulz: But this was team building for sure.
Christine Schiefer: This team built... Built them.
Em Schulz: This is so sick. And also like, sadly, like think of the mailman who kept bringing this stuff to them. It was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: First it was a pig fetus.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And now it's a coffin and like, like, oh my God. Like, or whatever it was.
Christine Schiefer: And like a funeral wreath and oh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Spiders! I'd be...
Em Schulz: Ugh!
Christine Schiefer: Pissed, I'd be like, what if one of those got out?
Em Schulz: Oh my God. And like, because they're like in charge of eBay, I guess they could get whatever they wanted from eBay. Right. So...
Christine Schiefer: Exact... Oh great... Great point. So the security chief of eBay made it clear that eBay's leadership supported taking action and they forwarded a message by Mr. Wymer in which he declared that Ms. Steiner and this other Twitter user named Fidomaster, who I also looked up on the Wayback Machine and was like this really small time just guy who had some complaints about eBay and just tweeted about them. And I guess he was... Even though he is like this kind of small fry like Twitter user, he also got targeted.
Em Schulz: Ah.
Christine Schiefer: And so basically Mr. Wymer declared that, uh, "EcommerceBytes and Fidomaster have seemingly dedicated their lives to erroneously trashing us."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: "I genuinely believe these people are acting out of malice and anything we can do to solve it must be explored. Whatever period it period takes." Jesus.
Em Schulz: God. Give a bunch of narcissistic men, uh, an executive board and see what they do.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: And then see what they do once they get berated slightly by one random measly Twitter user.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well...
Em Schulz: And they just... To all... All... All hell breaks loose.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well then we are in 2023. 'Cause that's kind of how all...
Em Schulz: Yep. Yep.
Em Schulz: All boards work. Umm, according to prosecutors, this is again from the New York Times, Mr. Baugh and members of the security team devised a convoluted strategy to secretly harass the Steiners and then offer eBay's assistance in stopping the attacks. So they're...
Em Schulz: Oh. To bribe them of like, only if you say nice things about me? Is that what's happening?
Christine Schiefer: No. Sort of like, "Oh my gosh, you're being attacked. We'll help you." And then win the Steiner's confidence and manipulate them into writing nice things about eBay now...
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: That they've saved them from the villain. So they called it the White Knight strategy, uh, and...
Em Schulz: Foul.
Christine Schiefer: Their idea was like, let's harass the shit outta them and then rescue them so that they love us. It's crazy. So...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It's... It's wild. Uh, one of the tweets that, uh... This is a group of Twitter users who again, are all deleted, but umm, thank God for, uh, reporters who've reported on this. And the Wayback Machine. One of the tweets said, "I guess I'm going to have to get your attention another way bitch."
Em Schulz: Ooh!
Christine Schiefer: And like that... That they were just getting really crazy aggressive misspelled. Umm, and then speaking of that exact same Twitter user, remember when that pig mask arrived?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That was like from Saw. So immediately after that pig mask arrived, they received a tweet and it said, “DO I HAVE UR ATTENTION NOW????”
Em Schulz: [gasp] What?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Very, very disturbing. And you can also see what they were trying to frame it as. So that same user wrote, "When you hurt our business," and this is all spelled wrong. “wen u hurt our bizness u hurt our familys… Ppl will do ANYTHING 2 protect family!!!!” So they're trying to pretend like they're these small time eBay users who were so deeply offended because...
Em Schulz: And stupid. 'Cause they can't spell, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: And stupid. Right? Isn't that so fucking embarrassing that they're pretending to be like the everyday person 'cause they can't spell.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's embarrassing. And meanwhile, Mr. Wymer, the fucking CCO on his personal Twitter account, he was tweeting Fred Roger's quotes left and right.
Em Schulz: Barf.
Christine Schiefer: He said a movie... That movie that also made me cry about Mr. Rogers that I watched on the plane made him cry. And he once retweeted Mr. Roger's line, "If there's anything that bothers me, it's one person demeaning another." But inside eBay, he was fucking goading all of this on, he was like, ring-leading this shit. In fact, he texted Mr. Baugh on August 11th, "I want to see ashes."
Em Schulz: Uhh!
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: God, Mr. Rogers would not like that.
Christine Schiefer: No. And then Mr. Baugh shared the message with his deputy David Harville adding, "I've been ordered to find and destroy."
Em Schulz: Okay. Like, you're a transformer. Shut the fuck up.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously? Are they just like, Oh wow. The most exciting thing that's ever happened. I guess so.
Em Schulz: They really... They turned this into like an adventure side quest of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes!
Em Schulz: Where... And...
Christine Schiefer: They're delusional.
Em Schulz: Then at the end they get to look like heroes. So...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. 'Cause they get to save the day. It's delusional. So Jim set up a meeting with his security staff in California at eBay's headquarters, where he put a map of Natick, Massachusetts, on the wall.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like Criminal Minds-esque, and they hatched a plan on how to enact this terror campaign. Then they flew out, this whole security team to Boston to start this, this war on the Steiners.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: In the investigation and confessions, more shocking activities came to light. Apparently two of these employees of eBay had attempted to put a GPS tracker on the Steiners' car...
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: But fortunately, their garage was locked at the time, so they weren't able to get in. Umm, ultimately, seven people on the security team at eBay pled guilty to stalking and harassing Ina and David Steiner, including a former police captain and a former Navy.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It was just like an array of people that worked on this... This same office, and they all got corralled into it, and they all said, "Okay." [laughter]
Em Schulz: How do you even corral that many people. I can understand, like, "Hey, we're doing like an office prank. Haha." But like, not send a coffin. Like what? What? No, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, you know, those older people who write that little blog in Natick, Massachusetts, let's fly out there and fucking send them a dead pig fetus. What?
Em Schulz: They hurt my feelings one time, so now I have to hurt their feelings for the rest of time.
Christine Schiefer: It's crazy. Good thing I make a hundred million bajillion more dollars than you so I can afford to fly everybody out there.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The irony of, like, him, this guy being all like butt hurt...
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: Because someone said he's a multimillionaire. Like what? And, and like now, he's gonna use that multimillionaire money to destroy them.
Christine Schiefer: To destroy this mom-and-pop business. Yeah. That's great. So the US Attorney said what was unique about this case is that you had relatively senior management at a Fortune 500 company who thought it was a good idea to launch what can only be described as a campaign of terror targeting a middle-aged couple in Natick, Massachusetts. Like it sounds batshit crazy. Like...
Em Schulz: What a stupid side hustle.
Christine Schiefer: Like what an insane hobby to develop.
Em Schulz: How is... How is this not like a 'Law and Order' episode where you go...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like it...
Em Schulz: There's no way this is real.
Christine Schiefer: So Jim Baugh was sentenced to five years in prison, and Veronica was sentenced to a year of home confinement and probation. Former director of Global Resiliency, David Harville, was sentenced to two years in prison. Philip Cook, former senior manager of security operations for eBay's global security team, was also sentenced to 18 months in prison for his involvement, followed by 12 months of house arrest and three years of supervised release. Stephanie Popp, former Senior Manager of Global Intelligence, was sentenced to two years in prison. Stephanie Stockwell, former manager of eBay's global intelligence center, was sentenced to two years probation. EBay apo...
Em Schulz: And let's just... Oh, sorry. Keep going. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: EBay apologized to the Steiners and said after an internal investigation, they had to let go all guilty employees. Yeah, no shit.
Em Schulz: They come... Oh, poor, poor them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm so sorry. We had to... We had to let them go. Uh, the company said that it had no knowledge that the harassment had been happening and that it disapproved of the employee's actions. Umm, but again, like, who's disapproving? If the CEO and the executives were the ringleaders of this whole operation.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's like we disapproved who?
Em Schulz: And also like, this is where I wanna say again, like talk about privilege and, uh, like wealth or class privilege of, like, they all... Some of them just got probation for that because they could afford the lawyers to get them out of this, but that's like it... The harassing that they did was so gross. I can't... The fact, euhh, I'm very... I just wish they could've... Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It gets worse. Uh, in the end, eBay's former CEO, Devin Wenig, got away with zero consequences.
Em Schulz: There it is.
Christine Schiefer: Although eBay says the stalking scandal was a consideration in his resignation, he was still allowed to resign in 2019 with a $57 million exit package.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, that sounds exactly like America for me. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: That so... That sounds right.
Christine Schiefer: That's 0% shocking. People were at a loss. The Steiners obviously filed a civil case against eBay, and the former executives and Jim's... Jim Baugh's attorney, released a memo which said, "Yes, Mr. Baugh is the most senior eBay employee the government chose to prosecute and bears an extra measure of responsibility for his supervisory role. But stopping there ignores the broader reality of what happened. Mr. Baugh faced intense relentless pressure from multiple executives"...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: "Who have evaded criminal responsibility, including the CEO Devin Wenig, to do something, anything, about the threat." According to one of the attorneys that represented the Steiners in their civil case, uh, Steve Wymer the CCO, the communications officer, uh, he's the one who wrote, "I want to see ashes," that guy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He escaped charges as well because he destroyed evidence of his involvement.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, allegedly a message went out in the company that a criminal investigation had started into eBay's operations and employees were to preserve all evidence, including emails and text messages. So, naturally, he wiped everything, and really the only thing we had left was, "I wanna see ashes." Uh, and it just wasn't enough to prosecute, uh, in court. And so he got away with it. And not only that, he now runs the Boys and Girls Club of Silicon Valley. So good for him.
Em Schulz: Wow. Say it with me, quelle surprise.
Christine Schiefer: Quelle su-fucking-prise. He is... He is with America's young and brightest stars, you know, teaching them the ways of late-stage capitalism. Umm...
Em Schulz: You know all the ways... All the ones that just didn't have to... They had zero consequences, you know they went to the bar that night and not just bragged, but like probably complained, that the inconvenience of it all.
Christine Schiefer: I was about to say complained. I was about to say complained. I'm sure they bitched about it.
Em Schulz: Like have no I... They have no idea, no awareness of how like lucky and privileged they even are to...
Christine Schiefer: I got like house arrest? I'm supposed to go on sabbatical to Italy next week.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Vomit.
Christine Schiefer: Vomit. Uh, he of course claims his texts were mischaracterized. Umm, okay. Rosemary said, "That's obstruction of justice," that's the attorney. "If I did that, I'd be sitting in a jail cell somewhere right now."
Em Schulz: Yeah!
Christine Schiefer: Yet he did it and no... No luck. As for the remaining messages, see... Steve sent like, I wanna see ashes. Uh, you know, authorities say it's just not enough to prosecute because as the US Attorney said. Like sometimes people talk in these kind of hyperbolic ways. So unless he said something very specific that we can pin on him, like it's just not gonna go anywhere and it's not worth the time.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so, you know, understandably they were frustrated, but it's almost like their hands are tied on that one. So this civil suit that the Steiners, uh, filed is still ongoing and they can't understand really why they were targeted in the first place. Umm, Ina's whole goal was like to help eBay's customers engage with the site and sell more. Umm, and she thinks that it should be a good thing for the company and like that they would want to be on her side, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And she told the Boston Globe, "The reason we're suing is we don't want it to happen to anybody else. It has to be known what was done to us."
Em Schulz: Aww. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And you know, there was, uh... There was this other guy that also got roped into this that was that Fidomaster guy I mentioned.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, who complained 'cause his wife sold, uh, on, I don't know if it was Pez dispensers, but sold on eBay. So occasionally he would tweet like, you know how unfair some of the rules were against sellers. And so the fucking global security team, if they found out they had a whole folder on this guy. He's just like some random Twitter user.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they have like a whole folder because he's just tweeting like this is an unfair rule. It's...
Em Schulz: That's so fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: Creepy and crazy. Oh, oh, this is the best. "Mr. Baugh also was convinced at one point," and this is from the New York Times, "that there was a sinister conspiracy relationship between the Steiners and Fidomaster. In reality, these were two separate entities, had nothing to do with each other." Like, what are the odds that two people were both critiquing eBay at the same time, you know?
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, believe it or not, two people just might not like you.
Christine Schiefer: Not. Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Shocker. Shocker. I know.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And so they believed they were actively conspiring to damage eBay. And he even indulged a theory that Fidomaster was the Steiners secret alter ego. And so this is how he tested it. Okay. Eight days after the take her down message from Mr. Wenig, a member of the security team flew across the country and drove to the Steiner's home on a quiet street and on their fence scrawled or spray painted the word Fidomaster. Like what?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And it was just... The New York Times called it both ridiculous and threatening. Like it's what...
Em Schulz: I... I feel like these people are in today... In today's world four years later they're in QAnon. I just have a hunch.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, you're probably a hundred percent right. Like these conspiracies are... Make less sense than some of the QAnon ones you've told me like this is insane.
Em Schulz: I... The only... Only people in QAnon, in today's world, I think would come up with that master fucking plan of spray paint Fidomaster on a fence.
Christine Schiefer: And that'll do it. Do what?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Nobody thought that far ahead.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And nobody really ever found out who Fidomaster actually was. Umm, it was not the Steiners, uh, so for what it's worth, we know that much. So according to the New York Times, in mid 2019, Fidomaster actually received an unsolicited message on Twitter, uh, from a user calling herself Marissa and appearing to be about 25. She claimed to be a former eBay employee who possessed extremely damaging videos of executives misbehaving. And she wanted Fidomaster to pass them along to the Steiners. Now, she was trying to get him to say, "Oh, okay, I am the Steiners." You know? Like she was trying to get him to admit...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: But instead what he said was... Or that he knew them. Either I am the Steiners or like, yeah, I'm meeting with them every Thursday at our fire ritual in the basement where we have skulls and we taunt eBay. Like, I don't know what they were hoping, [laughter] but they were like hoping that he would admit some like nefarious scheme with the Steiners. But instead he said, "Oh, it... I'm pretty sure her website's on her email address, so you can just use that."
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they were like, "Well, okay." And Marissa said, "Hey, I have a better idea. Why don't I leave the videos on a thumb drive at a hotel in the city of your choice,"
Em Schulz: What is going on.
Christine Schiefer: To try and draw him there to like see if it was the Steiners or like get his identity.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And his response was, "Why don't you get a lawyer?"
Em Schulz: Truly. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so that is the story.
Em Schulz: Great line.
Christine Schiefer: That is the story of the eBay stocking scandal that apparently none of us knew about!
Em Schulz: That's... Wow. Well done. Christine.
Christine Schiefer: It's only a couple of years ago, I'm like, what the F is going on here?
Em Schulz: I can't believe... I truly... It's so hard to wrap my head around that it was only a few years ago. Because that feels like something that should have happened in like '02 or something.
Christine Schiefer: While we were recording the podcast. It is and I feel like it's something that would've... I mean, maybe we were tagged and I just didn't have the time to like look into it, but wow.
Em Schulz: Crazy.
Christine Schiefer: That's wild. That's wild.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Well done Christine. Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Well thank you and well done Molly Anne for finding this on TikTok and uh, you know, bringing it to my attention and, uh, letting me know...
Em Schulz: Which is wild. 'Cause if, if it was created by TikTok, there was probably, it was probably a Gen Zer who knew what we didn't know had that happen.
Christine Schiefer: They were definitely clips of the 60 Minutes special is what...
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: Is what the TikTok was. So I don't know who... I don't know how that works. I don't know how people go about that. But, umm, it was kind of like an abri... Abridged version and I was like...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: I must know more. And so Molly Anne helped so much with the notes and then I got to do my like, Wayback Machine deep dive and finally use my New York Times subscription.
Em Schulz: Very excited for you.
Christine Schiefer: To get some more deets. But yeah, that was a wild one. I mean, to mail someone a box of spiders and find out it's the CEO of eBay is just...
Em Schulz: Like how?
Christine Schiefer: Batshit crazy. It like makes no sense.
Em Schulz: Uhh.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Wow. That was a juicy one. That was... That one kept me on my seat from beginning to end.
Christine Schiefer: I was excited to tell you that one. You know, there are no murders in this one, so that's nice.
Em Schulz: I love when there's no murders. I love when it's a bunch of privileged pieces of shit. I love when...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yep, yep, yep.
Em Schulz: I love when they... Wait, they win at the end. Well, they don't totally win because no one really got the justice that they needed to be serving. But, uh, I like that everyone was safe and fine. And it was topical because I sure love, umm, online shopping. So.
Christine Schiefer: It was topical. 'cause Em likes eBay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I like online shopping. It doesn't matter where it's from. But now... Now that I've got their... Their website, the ecommerce, I'm gonna absolutely look through that and just see like what it's all about. That's so fun.
Christine Schiefer: When I saw the, uh, the picture of the guy who now... Wymer, who now is the head of the Boys and Girls club of... I was like...
Em Schulz: Chills.
Christine Schiefer: Are you fucking kidding with me? Like, this is the most cliche Succession style bullshit. Like, it... It's just sad. It's just sad.
Em Schulz: It's incredibly sad.
Christine Schiefer: Like that's the guy who's gonna be teaching America's future?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: About ethics and I mean...
Em Schulz: And you know, some parents are probably stoked about it 'cause he's like.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He's a real tough one.
Christine Schiefer: He's successful. I mean...
Em Schulz: He's been through so much though, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Don't get him wrong. Don't get that twisted. He... Uh, he made quite a bit of money, so whatever.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's worth. Anyway...
Em Schulz: Oy. Well.
Christine Schiefer: So thank you for bearing with me. Uh, only one potty break. So you know what?
Em Schulz: I hope everyone had fun.
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: Umm, that's it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's it. If you have suggestions... We never say this, but if you have suggestions for stories, umm, on our website andthatswhywedrink.com, you can submit your story ideas. Umm, and we kind of gather those and over time, umm, you know, go through and pick ones that strike a fancy. So if you see anything on TikTok that's like, what the F, umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Let us know. We would love to know about it. Umm, you can either tag us in it, uh, or send it to us or just email in. Umm, but we'd love to hear what you guys wanna hear as well.
Em Schulz: Thank you everyone. And if you... Umm, I don't know if you have made it this far. Thank you because it's a very long episode and we'll... We'll see you next week with probably just as long of an episode 'cause we can't keep it together.
Christine Schiefer: Yay. We never stop talking.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We driiiink.
Em Schulz: Drink.
Christine Schiefer: That was beautiful.
