[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Last time we did Zencastr things were very chaotic, so let's hope we did it right this time.
Em Schulz: Yes. Uh, until further notice things are, 15 seconds in we're good.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we're rolling and we're not stopping yet.
Em Schulz: Okay, great.
Christine Schiefer: Now we're just gonna watch the timer the whole time.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know, [laughter] well, we'll be waiting for some notification that's like, I don't know, the error sound from Microsoft Word. That's like.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: I feel like I'm gonna hear that from childhood or something.
Christine Schiefer: That one?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. That's the one, you nailed it.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Hi.
Em Schulz: Uh, hi, how are you? What's, what's, what's your vibe today? You feel low energy to me and I don't like it.
Christine Schiefer: I am low energy. I like keep falling asleep during the day, which is not normal for me. So I'm like, I'm, I don't know. I probably, my iron's screwed up again. 'Cause I always stop taking iron and I'm like, "I'm fine now." And then, you know...
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Goes away. I'm drinking my large McDonald's iced coffee. Classic.
Em Schulz: Maybe, umm, maybe throw some iron in there. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Mmm, yummy.
Em Schulz: Speaking of McDonald's, are you in on the, the Grimace shake train? Do you know about this trend?
Christine Schiefer: No. I know about the Grimace birthday, but I don't know about the shake trend. What's that?
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, you missed it. But it was, it's, it's about to be over because I think it was just during June. But oh, it was my favorite TikTok trend. There's umm, so Grimace, there was a, a shake in honor of his birthday. And by the way, for people who don't know who Grimace is, because Allison learned this month.
Christine Schiefer: No. Okay. 'Cause I was judging Gen Z so hard. 'Cause they were like, "What is a Grimace?" And I'm like, "Who are you people? Like, where are you from?" I'm not even barely from this country, and I know who Grimace is.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Allison didn't know? God damn it.
Em Schulz: He was my, he was my favorite character of the McDonald's crew.
Christine Schiefer: He's the best.
Em Schulz: He was my favorite... Oh, the Hamburglar really pissed me off.
Christine Schiefer: Hamburglar was really a delight in, in the worst way. But Grimace is a champion. I don't know how people don't know who he is. It's his freaking birthday.
Em Schulz: Grimace is, Grimace is a good time. He was Ronald McDonald's best friend. And, uh, but so anyway, they made a, a shake for him, which the whole mystery originally was what does he even taste like? Because it was kind of just a vague purple flavor.
Christine Schiefer: It was just purple flavor. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um. Some people were saying it would taste like a wild berry thing. Anyway, but so TikTok started this trend, I guess from that mystery. And like some people not knowing who Grimace was, that like, it turned into like, if you drank the milkshake, something spooky would happen to you. And then it turned into like, oh, Grimace is after you.
Christine Schiefer: Wait what?
Em Schulz: And so... Oh, it became a whole thing. But then, but then it, it turned and now everyone feels really bad because now there's a trend going where everyone's showing like collages of like the most horror centric or cinematically scary TikToks people made after they drank a Grimace shake. And then they're showing a picture of like Grimace from the '70s as a little kid. And it's like he just wanted to celebrate his birthday all of you made fun of him.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, I'm so upset.
Em Schulz: It's truly, go look at my Instagram after this because I posted one of the TikToks that are like that are like.
Christine Schiefer: You did?
Em Schulz: But I was fully invested in like the horror movie of Grimace and who is Grimace and he's coming to get you. And then all of, all of the videos started turning into like pictures of like little Grimace and how he's so sad. No one wants to celebrate with him. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Stop. I mean, the fact that his name is Grimace. If you didn't know who he was, you'd be like, "What the fuck kind of a name is Grimace." So I do get the like immediate distrust umm... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Every time we did a lot of road tripping recently. We stopped at a lot of McDonald's with Leona, and every time they're like trying to push those Grimace shakes on me and I'm like, "I'm good. I'm in the car for 12 more hours. I think my tummy can't handle purple flavor right now." [laughter] Will just stick with the usual.
Em Schulz: I, uh, I am upset I never tried it, but I feel like I've tasted it based on everyone else's talking about it on TikTok.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like maybe you know better than you think what it actually tastes like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm...
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm glad you're drinking McDonald's. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Guess, guess why I drink this week. Do you wanna ask me?
Em Schulz: I do want, is it because you saw Taylor Swift?
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. But that was definitely a highlight of my life. For sure, for sure.
Em Schulz: What, what, what, what? Why, why you drink?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, Leona said Mothman.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Wow. That's incredible.
Christine Schiefer: She started saying Mothman. It wasn't even like, she has a book. I think you got it for called bake... Either you or Eva, or I don't know. It's a, it's called Baby Mothman. And she, we read it before bed every night and the other day she was like, "Mo-, mo man, baby."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, "You just said mothman, baby, I can't believe myself... My ears right now." [laughter] So.
Em Schulz: It's all, it's the, it's the ultimate maternal goal, isn't it? So. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It was, and the, I feel like I've like exceeded all my parenting expectations, but the fact that I couldn't immediately call you 'cause I had to wait for us to record was so annoying. [laughter] So, I was like, [laughter] Em, needs to know this. And we were just talking the other day, you were asking me like, what words does Leona say? And that night she said, mothman. And I was like, oh my God.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Now I have to wait three days to tell Em. But anyway, that's the big news on my end. And I feel like it's pretty groundbreaking.
Em Schulz: Well, nothing I have to say after that. The whole episode is over now. Well, and also...
Christine Schiefer: Imagine if she said Grimace.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: If she goes, Gwimeth with like a double lisp.
Christine Schiefer: Gwimeth. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or she says Otay, which I always thought was just kind of like a cliche thing, but she's like, Otay... And I'm like, whoa...
Em Schulz: That's precious, that's...
Christine Schiefer: Kids actually do say that. Otay. Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Oh. It's so sweet. Well, so now that she said Mothman, we have to collect all of the cryptids out of her mouth. So trying to get Bigfoot next.
Christine Schiefer: I think Nessies's probably easy, right? Big Nessie. Bigfoot, umm...
Em Schulz: Does... Can she do S's yet though? Nessie?
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Or would be like me? Neii.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She calls, She calls her pacifiers, her pacies. Umm, and she...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And she has a teacher called Miss Cassie and she calls her Miss Passie. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's precious.
Christine Schiefer: So I feel like she could probably say Nessie.
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. Okay. So work on that.
Christine Schiefer: And she has plenty of Nessie books and stuffed animals. So you know, we have some teaching tools to utilize.
Em Schulz: We all did a... We all did a very good job of uh, preparing her for indoctrination...
Christine Schiefer: You did.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, literally like, you had... You threw me a surprise baby shower that was cryptid themed. Like she was... [laughter] This was destined. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know what else was destined? Remember when I found that Happy Halloween banner and I cut out the letters and rearranged them...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: But it's spelled like Happy Leona or something. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It literally spelled Happy Leona, like the word Leona is in Halloween. The word Leona is also very close to lemon. Which I did not realize until literally my child was born. And someone commented on my Instagram post and I was like, well, it's too late now [laughter]..
Em Schulz: It's um...
Christine Schiefer: Special one.
Em Schulz: So yeah, she's destined for some spooky things. I hope she knows that.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. I think she does.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine. Well, uh, how was Taylor Swift before we do anything else?
Christine Schiefer: I got to say, I feel like I played it down so much when I was like, I forgot I was going. Umm, I... It was like the best. And I cried because...
Em Schulz: You cried?
Christine Schiefer: Taylor Swift is... Yeah, there was... I cried during Enchanted because that was the first song that like my brother told me, like, the lore about years and years and years ago. And I got just so into that song, and that was like my entry point into Taylor Swift. And so, I cried when that came on. It was, um, oh, but I met, uh, I met a listener who gave me one of her Swifty bracelets, like the beaded bracelets...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's cute.
Christine Schiefer: And umm, and some body glitter. She put body glitter on me. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Ayy...
Christine Schiefer: And I said, I said, what's your era? And she said, "Well, my name's Sarah, so I'm in the Sarah era." And I was like, whoa. [laughter]
Em Schulz: They said, I'm, I have my own fucking era. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was like, "Enough said, I'm not gonna question you any longer." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, uh, did you uh, practice your 1, 2, 3, let's go bitch. Or did you?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was so funny. The person behind me, the girl behind me was like with her dad. And she shouted it, but like, too early. And then she was so embarrassed.
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: But then I knew it was coming, so I got to do it with everybody. And I turned around and I was like, "Thank you for doing it." She's like, "I'm sorry." I was like, "No, no, you warned me. So that I knew when to do it with everybody else." She gave me like a heads up. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay. So I feel like that was like, I somehow like astral projected into that person's body...
Christine Schiefer: You did.
Em Schulz: To give you a cue...
Christine Schiefer: You did.
Em Schulz: I was like, I know you didn't learn in time...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause she was so horrified. And I was like, no, no. That was your soul preparing me for the moment. Don't worry.
Em Schulz: I do. I, I do feel so bad for her though, 'cause she's probably not ever gonna see Taylor again. And it was her one time. I feel so bad for her. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well that's, she might, she might see Taylor again. I don't think this is the end. That girl was probably 15.
Em Schulz: She has to go now just to redo it. She has to.
Christine Schiefer: [giggles] Oh God. Anyway, it was really funny. And I turned around and she started apologizing to me. I was like, imagine if I was actually mad at you for that. [laughter] Like, what an insane thing to do and feel. Umm, but, but thank you. I, uh, I felt very prepared because of you Em, and because of your astral soul projecting into the teenager behind me.
Em Schulz: It's a lot of work to make sure you're on top of things, [laughter] but that's what I'm here for.
Christine Schiefer: Especially when it's just pop culture trends. Nothing else. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But it's just Taylor, and Grimace.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] At least I knew who Grimace was. Okay, Allison. [laughter] Geez.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, uh, I don't really have a reason to drink this week, except I got myself a new cup and I love her.
Em Schulz: I love her.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] I'm sorry, Where did you get that?
Em Schulz: Girl, this is... Sorry, the ice is probably...
Christine Schiefer: That looks like Grimace threw it up.
Em Schulz: I, I liked it because it's giving ectoplasm kind of.
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: And it's much more neon than it looks on camera. Like it's very...
Christine Schiefer: It looks like it's burning my retinas. So, I don't know how much more neon it could get. Em's holding a neon green, like it looks like slime colored cup with a purple lid, a Grimace colored lid.
Em Schulz: Umm, so there's nothing I love more than a bright neon, dark purple contrast. There's just nothing better.
Christine Schiefer: It's true. It's true.
Em Schulz: Nothing like it. And umm, I have been one of those people where every time I go to Starbucks, which feels like 15 times a day sometimes. [laughter] Um. Every time I go, I look at the shelves and I always point out a cup and I go, "Oh, that one's cute. Oh, if I had to get one, I'd get that one. Oh, that one's nice."
Christine Schiefer: I knew it. I've done that.
Em Schulz: And I've never, I've always kept it together. And we know I love an impulse buy and I still have never done it.
Christine Schiefer: That's impressive, by the way.
Em Schulz: And I saw... And not only... I didn't even go to Starbucks and see this on the shelf. I saw someone say on TikTok, by the way, Starbucks released their summer colors.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, you went to find it.
Em Schulz: And this was one... This was one of the ones that they showed and I went, it must be mine. So I went out of my way to go find it instead of just like window browsing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That was, you know, that was me with my cup. I've never ever bought a cup. And then one day I went in and they had this really tall, my, my pink to purple, my pink to blue, like. And then you were like, those are bi colors. And I went, oh yeah, maybe that's why I was like, [laughter] I need that. But it was so beautiful and like kind of studded and like, I, I could... I had no self-control. I was like, I must own this immediately.
Em Schulz: There was, there is one mug of theirs I've gotten, which was, if anyone remembers like six months ago, they were really pushing these like teal blue ceramic mugs. And I got one of those. And now I have this one, and now I have a mug and I have a water cup and I can never do it again.
Christine Schiefer: I got to say...
Em Schulz: And that's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Em tells me all the time we're forbidden from buying them more mugs. And then they go out and buy their, themselves mugs. And I'm like, God damn it...
Em Schulz: Christine, I literally got a mug this morning. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No you didn't. What is wrong with you? I, like...
Em Schulz: It's truly...
Christine Schiefer: And the worst part is there's so many mugs that I wanna get you, and I'm always like, no Em's gonna kill me. And then at like, holidays, sometimes you give me two mugs and I'm like, wait a minute. Why is this a ban that from me to you, [laughter] but not the other way round. Like you think I don't have too many mugs?
Em Schulz: Because, okay. It's because... I, I don't really have a real reason except I'm trying so hard to be good about mugs. But I always, I'm my worst enemy. I, 'cause at least I put boundaries up with everyone else, but I still fucking slip when it comes to myself buying mugs. And Allison has told me so many times, we're not allowed to have any more mugs...
Christine Schiefer: I'm more scared of Allison if I'm being honest.
Em Schulz: Me too.
Christine Schiefer: I'm more scared of Allison. Yeah. I mean, I kind of knew in the back of my mind like, this wasn't really about me and Em this is Allison would kill me if I added more fucking annoying mugs to your collection. But oh I love a good mug...
Em Schulz: But, but, but you know what, recently I've gotten... By the way, Allison, while you're listening to this, I got a bone to pick with you. Let's discuss right now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Umm, it's because, okay, so here's the thing. Realistically, no one needs more than one mug. Maybe two when come cleaning day or, you know. But, uh, we have easily, easily like 40 mugs between the two of us.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, easily.
Em Schulz: There's, it's just too many.
Christine Schiefer: Always.
Em Schulz: But, and, and I understood her cries when she was like, "Please stop the madness. I want out. I don't want these mugs anymore."
Christine Schiefer: Stop the madness. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And I thought, you know what? That's a fair request. And then someone really got into, like, the world of cocktails and homegirl literally is gonna go take a, like a bartending, like six week night class about becoming like a whole ass bartender.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: For fun. And...
Christine Schiefer: She... First she takes an, she takes an Excel course in college, and then in her 30s she's like, I'm gonna learn how to make cocktails. [laughter] What is going on with this one?
Em Schulz: She, she has become so, so into bartending and so into cocktails. She demands that she... By the way, we're a family of two. One of us does not drink.
Christine Schiefer: You don't drink alcohol. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And she has demanded that we have every type of glass, every type of mixer, every type of shake. So, I don't, I don't know the words to everything, but our entire cabinet, which you've seen our kitchen, we are very fortunate to have a, a massive amount of cabinets. All of it filled with glassware that only she can use. So, I'm like, you know what? Fuck you. I'm gonna have my mugs. That's, and that's that. You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: You know what? Yeah. You get your own little drawer of mugs and that'll be your man cave.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I feel like a dirty little, a dirty little gremlin now, because every time I get a new mug, I kinda go, I test the waters. I'm like, Allison.
Christine Schiefer: You just hide it.
Em Schulz: I'm like, "Look what I got." And then if she says something, I'm like, "Let's investigate your, your wardrobe."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so you're ready to just whip open all the cabinets, like a fucking poltergeist.
Em Schulz: Your armoire of brandy, snuffer, sniffers, whatever they're called. [laughter] So anyway. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Your armoire of brandy sniffers. What the fuck is happening at your house right now? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, it's a, it's a, it's a hot button issue with us where, uh, we just, we don't have any room for plates. We literally, Christine, all the cups in the world, we own four fucking plates. Four. [laughter] Like if five people came over for dinner, we wouldn't have enough.
Christine Schiefer: You should take a cooking class. [laughter] You take a cooking class and you can buy any plate you want and be like, it's for my new hobby.
Em Schulz: We literally, if we, if we haven't done the dishes recently, we just don't have plates. Like, that's, that's it. We, it's, but, but we have enough cups probably to last the entire year without washing a single one. [laughter] So anyway, anyway, you know what, I'm back to mugs, so give me all the mugs you want. Oh, Allison's so scared right now. I can feel it. I said it and I knew, I knew she hated it.
Christine Schiefer: I'm happy to be out of this equation. I'm just gonna remove myself and just let you two handle this one.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's why I drink. 'Cause apparently Allison and I are gonna duke it out over the mugs once she hears this episode, so.
Christine Schiefer: I think a lot of people, including myself, can relate to that. So don't worry.
Em Schulz: Uh, if you are in a relationship with somebody and you're the mug collector.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Please post your pictures and tag us. Uh, we'd like to see your mugs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Especially if you have some like quirky cool ones, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh. I love a quirky cool mug. You have no idea. Eva got me a mug. She's been breaking the rule, by the way. She's already getting me new mugs.
Christine Schiefer: Because Em because you break the rule every time and it's like, you know what? At a certain point Eva and I were like, what? Fuck it. Like fuck it. If Em's breaking the rules, we're breaking the rules.
Em Schulz: Well, for my birthday, she got me a mug that it's looks like a golf course and there's a hole cut out at the bottom and it comes with a little golf club and ball.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: And the mug is the hole in one. So while you're drinking tea.
Christine Schiefer: Come on. How could we not buy you that? Like, I mean how could...
Em Schulz: And the golf club is a pen.
Christine Schiefer: Like how could Eva not look at that and go, I mean, I'm gonna skip this one. Are you kidding? [laughter] Like, hello? What do you expect?
Em Schulz: Anyway, so, umm, also since we're talking so much about drinking and the show is literally called And That's Why We Drink, and like 300 and a half episodes later, I am starting this trend. This is your daily reminder to drink some water. You hydrated, hydrated. Well, I guess dehydrated, uh, funky people. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: I couldn't, I didn't finish the insult in my brain. So, but everyone drink some water.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm drinking coffee, does that count?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sure. Today, yes.
Christine Schiefer: It has a lot of vanilla in it.
Em Schulz: And with that, maybe we should start our stories today, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Let's do it. Let's do it.
Em Schulz: Okay. I think you'll like this one. I think there will be parts where you hate this one.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: But! Umm, but I think you'll like it at least for the title. Are you ready?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: This is the story of the UFO Abduction of Snippy the Horse.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] What the F is happening? .
Em Schulz: Hehehe.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. So before we get into it, I, I know you're very excited. I have to bring you completely down really quick, because there's a content warning, but the horse dies. This is, umm, the first case of UFOs being linked to animal cattle mutilation. I'm so sorry.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, no. Well, thank you for appreciating how sensitive I am. Like a big baby. I talk about dead people all day and then it's like, fucking a cow. And I'm like crying over here.
Em Schulz: The irony is a little obvious, but...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: It's, I understand though. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: There's no controlling it. I, I can't explain it.
Em Schulz: Well, so I will, if someone else is also, umm, sensitive to animal, uh, I don't know if cruelty is the right word.
Christine Schiefer: Mutilation
Em Schulz: 'Cause we don't actually know what happened, but mutilation. Umm, I'll bring it up when the time comes, but it's, it's gonna be quick.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But it, the rest of it is worth it because this is the abduction of Snippy the horse. So, you know, and if you're a horse girly, this is for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. This is for you. Umm, and now me vicariously.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Today Christine's a horse girl.
Christine Schiefer: I, I am. And I, I, I, I, I.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I was trying...
Em Schulz: You didn't finish your thought either.
Christine Schiefer: I was trying [laughter] to come up with a horse pun that rhymed with neigh and I couldn't think of one. So.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You could have just said neigh, not true. I don't know. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I could have. But that wouldn't have been funny either. I could have said, umm, [laughter] I could have said, umm this is, this...
Em Schulz: Anything.
Christine Schiefer: I'm here for the mane attraction.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, that's a good time. Did you Google that?
Christine Schiefer: No. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But that would be hilarious if I just fucking Googled horse pun. [laughter] Let me look up. I can Google it.
Em Schulz: Do you remember that, do you remember that, umm, that time I found all of my old like childhood homework? And I sent you a picture of one of them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yes. Oh my God. I've never had such a delightful evening in my life. I've, I've missed that day. Em was like, "Look what I found."
Em Schulz: Do you remember when I showed you that that thing, I don't know why I saved it. It has to be because of how ridiculous it was. But I drew, I colored in a pear. Like it was a, it was a, like a, the shape of a pear.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And apparently I had to name it because I like, it has like a spot for me to have written something on its belly. And it was a pear with a smiley face. And it just says, horse on it. [laughter] And I don't... [laughter] And I guess I named it horse? I don't understand but I love her. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I want that framed.
Em Schulz: I, I saved her.
Christine Schiefer: I want that framed so bad.
Em Schulz: Once, once I'm done treasuring it, I will send it to you framed. Oh, speaking of frames. Umm, I found this picture all over again. It's my, oh shit. I found this picture all over again, it is my favorite picture of you and me, Christine, and it makes me so happy every time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! I love that photo of us.
Em Schulz: I also...
Christine Schiefer: Just so intoxicated. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It looks so blurry. It looks just like you.
Christine Schiefer: It looks like me in a blur. Yes, it does. My dress is like falling off of my boobs. It's my wedding dress is.
Em Schulz: It's, it's my favorite picture of us. And so...
Christine Schiefer: I love that photo.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna find a place to put it in our, in my apartment.
Christine Schiefer: It's so cute.
Em Schulz: Okay, back to Snippy the horse.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I won't stirrup any more trouble. I Googled that one. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I'd, hang on, hang on. [do do do do, do do do do spooky sound plays] Did that work? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh-ho-ho-ho!
Em Schulz: Wait, what was the sound?
Christine Schiefer: That was the sound.
Em Schulz: What was...
Christine Schiefer: Do do do do, do do do do.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. No.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're trying to do the womp womp?
Em Schulz: I, I was trying to find the... Yeah. [laughter] I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I hope you could, I hope you accidentally hit the clapping next.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm just gonna pick one. Hold on. Pick a color. I have no idea which one is which.
Christine Schiefer: Green.
[Womp womp womp womp trumpet sound plays]
Christine Schiefer: Oh man, that was the right one. [laughter] Womp womp womp womp
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, okay, so here we go. This is the first, or one of the first cases of UFO connected livestock mutilation. Uh, Snippy is a three-year old, and I'm sorry if I'm saying this wrong, but I think I'm saying it right. Appaloosa, a three-year-old Appaloosa, uh, which means that she...
Christine Schiefer: That sounds right to me.
Em Schulz: Do you know what Appaloosa is?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's a she. I don't, it sounds like Appalachia, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: So Appaloosa is the type the, like the, the design of your horse.
Christine Schiefer: The breed. The design. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I'm sure, I'm sure it's the breed, but I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Eva knows. It's a... Oh my god. Eva literally says, As a horse girl, I know. It's a spotted horse. Whoa.
Em Schulz: Yes. So she's got spots.
Christine Schiefer: Eva. Holy shit.
Em Schulz: I didn't know Eva was a horse girl.
Christine Schiefer: I, I did, but...
Em Schulz: That might have been, that might have been before our time. Is she still a horse girl, Eva? Write in.
Christine Schiefer: No, former, former, former.
Em Schulz: Former horse girl. Okay, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: This is, we talk about this stuff when you're asleep in the backseat and...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Drown us out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But when we're on tour and I wake up, the two of you seem much more bonded than you were before. And I'm like, I missed something really intense.
Christine Schiefer: Like also an Appaloosa has spots on its butt and you're like, I'm going back to sleep now. [laughter] I don't wanna be part of this.
Em Schulz: So Snippy is a three-year-old Appaloosa mare, which means that she, she's a she.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and uh, she was born and raised in the San Louis Valley of Colorado on Harry King Ranch.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, and this is in the 1960s and it's in the town of Alamosa which, that threw me for a second. 'Cause I was like, she's an Appaloosa that lives in Alamosa. And I was like, that could be a real interesting, like children's song.
Christine Schiefer: At least, seriously, at least Alamosa is not in Appalachia, 'cause then we'd be in big trouble.
Em Schulz: The, if the song were an Appaloosa in Alamosa not Appalachia, that would be, [laughter] real crazy.
Christine Schiefer: That'd be the world's worst song. But okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Someone with music writing experience, please create that song. Thank you. Umm, so in Alamosa, the population, it's just a small town, like 6,000 people. Umm, and then the rest of it is much more rural. Uh, and just to step aside really quick and give you a very vague, very, very quick summary of Colorado's history with UFOs. Is that from 1947 to '69, the government investigated over 12,000 UFO/alien encounters for Project Blue Book, which I have not covered yet, but...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: We will eventually. Umm, that's the government project that was studying UFOs during that time. And in the sixties specifically, the government was trying to decide if Project Blue Book was worth continuing.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So the Air Force commissioned an astrophysics professor, uh, named Edward Condon to investigate UFOs and extraterrestrials. So, like, I guess join the force or something. Umm, [laughter] and his findings, he became known for writing this thing called The Condon Report.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Which was...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I've heard his name before, so that makes sense.
Em Schulz: I would like to also eventually cover him, but what, this is why it's too overwhelming to cover right away, is because The Condon Report is over 15,000 pages long.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my pages? Oh Christ.
Em Schulz: Pages, not even words. I know.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Geez.
Em Schulz: Umm, [laughter], it was written collectively by 37 scientists.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: And it was called, and so... It wasn't called the Condon report, it just became that. Its official name is Scientific Studies of UFOs. Umm. And so he wrote this after the government had him join on in the sixties. And ultimately he decided after 15,000 pages of writing, he decided that there is really no reason for the government to continue any UFO investigations. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It took him 15,000 pages to decide that?
Em Schulz: I know. I know. I know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. That's exhausting.
Em Schulz: Also, umm... I guess even though he was trying to say like, oh, UFOs aren't worth looking for. This was in like the '60s right after the '50s, which is when like UFO craze was a thing. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a fair point.
Em Schulz: So you can say it's not really worth your time, but it's already in the zeitgeist. It's too late. Umm, and of the, of when Project Blue Book was doing all their studies when they studied like 12,000 different ET cases. Uh, just to give you an idea of what they came to understand about UFOs or what they released, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist here. But from what they're willing to publicly say out loud is that out of 12,000 reports, only 700 of them are still unsolved, which means they solved 94%...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Of their cases.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Bullshit. I call bullshit.
Em Schulz: That's what I think. That's what I think. I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Em's always so diplomatically like allegedly they're... I'm like, boo, liars.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, then you said it and then I kicked the door open...
Christine Schiefer: And then you're like, yes.
Em Schulz: And I was like, yeah me too.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, I just wanted to hear you say it first.
Christine Schiefer: We needed one other person on our team. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So that makes it feel a little less overwhelming. If I wanted to cover Project Blue Book, 'cause then I only have to care about 6%.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or 7, 700 cases.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, but, and I get that, I do get a lot of them could easily be debunked with something or natural causes or a weather balloon or whatever. But I feel like there's no way only 6%. I feel like now that, umm, the government has straight up said aliens are real or whatever that announcement was a while ago. Uh, I feel like we should look back at Project Blue Book and maybe like, you know, look, just...
Christine Schiefer: Renaissance.
Em Schulz: Do one more glance over the cases.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But I feel like that's still a lot like, like however how many...
Em Schulz: It's still 700 unsolved cases.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. So maybe that is it. But like that's still a lot in my opinion. Like even if one of those cases were unsolved or were a mystery, that's still counts. Right? Like I know Jim Harold says this all the time, but even if one ghost story out there is true.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Then what, that then it's real, like you don't need to prove that they're all real. You know?
Em Schulz: I love Jim Harold. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Me too. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That, that immediately made it so much more comforting [laughter] and not really, 'cause it's like, oh, aliens must be real.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway. So the Condon Report, if you live near Colorado University, uh, they're, they own the Condon Report and it is now in their rare and distinctive collections. Which...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Cool.
Em Schulz: I so badly want to go look at it.
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: So badly. And I will say this, despite Condon claiming that the UFOs weren't anything to worry about, this was in 1969. 2 years before, there were so many reports in this area of Colorado where Snippy the horse happened. There were so many reports in the San Luis Valley that one paper in the area actually said that they were being, quote, "Downright plagued with UFOs".
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my god. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: But then two years later he...
Christine Schiefer: Colorado. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But then two years later he comes out with this like, famous report that says UFOs aren't really all that important. But it sounds like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: All 6% of true stories happened in San Louis Valley Colorado, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Poor Snippy is getting like no respect here.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like put some dignity on her name, you know.
Christine Schiefer: She's been through a lot.
Em Schulz: She has. And you're about to hear how much she went through.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So before we get into it, I just wanna say, I, I just kind of, umm, touched on it. But Snippy was not the first story in this area. Umm, they really were, quote, "Plagued by UFOs". It seems like everyone had a story. There's a story of one student who saw a strange figure in the field and when they drove toward it, both of their tire, their rear tires blew out at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm, there were people who were seeing black triangular objects flying in the sky. There were multiple people who were being followed by objects for miles. Umm, that were flying around above them. There's also one story of two deputies who are being followed by an orange globe. Umm, but that they didn't report it 'cause they were afraid of losing their jobs. So, that's also another thing about Project Blue Book is how many of them weren't reported, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Great point. Great point.
Em Schulz: Just saying, uh, another story is that there was this well-respected judge in town named Charles Bennett, and he and his wife reported a UFO sighting. They said that they saw three red orange circles, similar to an orange globe.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, three red orange circles flying over them at high speeds and they could hear the machines humming and the machines above them formed into a triangle together.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. So we got a globe and a triangle.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. We've, and soon maybe a rhombus.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, no. Say it ain't so.
Em Schulz: [laughter] So, uh, on this same night where, uh, this well-respected judge in town swears that he saw UFO. On that same night, Snippy the horse met her fate.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
[do do do do, do do do do spooky sound plays]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, it was perfect. It was perfect. I talked right over it, but it was perfect.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, Snippy aka Lady, not actually Snippy, Lady. Uh, she belonged to a woman named Nellie. And Nellie was the sister of Harry King of Harry King Ranch.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Which is where she lived. Snippy lived.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Got it, got it, got it, got it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so Harry King had a ranch with his mom and he looked after his sister's horse there. And the horse was Lady. So, uh, Snippy, I, there was, there was one, uh, note that I found where someone described Snippy and it felt like the closest thing I'll ever come to, to be like to being my version, of this girl is known to have walked into a room and lit up a room and...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Lit up the room with her smile and stuff.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, so Snippy lit up the room with her smile.
Christine Schiefer: Aww honey.
Em Schulz: Uh, she was known as a creature of habit because she would go out to pasture every day, but she was very timely and would always come back right around food time.
Christine Schiefer: Honey.
Em Schulz: And she loved her food and she loved attention. It sounds a lot like me.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. This sounds, is starting to sound a little familiar [laughter]
Em Schulz: Snippy also had tarantula legs. Hang on. Nope. Wait, that's me. So...
Christine Schiefer: I thought you were gonna say Tourettes. I was like, that's also you [laughter] I was like, which one are we going with? Ta-rantula legs. Got it [laughter]
[womp womp womp womp trumpet sound plays]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ohh. These mixers are too powerful.
Em Schulz: I only know what those two things do, I'm scared to touch anything else.
Christine Schiefer: I'm glad you remember. 'Cause I immediately forget when I press one of the buttons what it does [laughter] Oh God that's good.
Em Schulz: If Snippy had Tourettes, I would like to, I would feel closer to Snippy. I'm just saying.
Christine Schiefer: Agreed.
Em Schulz: Umm or tarantula legs. I would feel seen either way. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like she's probably got those big hind quarters you know? So maybe...
Em Schulz: She's... She's got those gams you know.
Christine Schiefer: She's got the gams that's for sure.
Em Schulz: So when she didn't show up one night because she was usually very timely about coming in for her food.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: This is when Harry King of Harry King Ranch got very worried.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Uh he went looking for her and unfortunately he found her two days later in a field.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm and there's nothing like total... There's nothing bloody gory I'm about to say it's more like anatomy based.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In case that's like helpful for somebody to figure out...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: If they wanna listen to the next couple of minutes. But let's go. So basically it was Snippy lying down. Her entire body is fine except for neck up. Umm her head was just bone. There was no...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: There was no tissue. No skin, no muscle. No sign of anything except bone. And so you...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] It was just a skull?
Em Schulz: Just a skull.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck.
Em Schulz: And it was as if like scavenger animals had picked it all away but it was even too clean for that.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] And the rest of the body...
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Was there. Right? Like with all the skin and stuff.
Em Schulz: The rest of the body was there. Completely untouched. Completely untouched.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Plus where the exposed bone began and where her skin ended around her neck there was no signs of biting or tearing as if there were scavenger animals that came to pick at it.
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh.
Em Schulz: The flesh truly looked like it had been perfectly cut from the body with a tool.
Christine Schiefer: What the... What the fuck.
Em Schulz: And it... It was so clean that no animal could have done it. And all of her bones were still in place. So it appeared, quote, "Meticulously cleaned without being jostled." So like none of the bones were out of place or anything.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh that just gave me goosecam.
Em Schulz: Like everything from the neck up just went away except her bone.
Christine Schiefer: And just like placed there perfectly without being...
Em Schulz: Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: Scattered about.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh.
Em Schulz: So Harry umm also looked around...
Christine Schiefer: Threw up...
Em Schulz: Just... Yeah [laughter] I'm sure. I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: I would. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And he was looking for like any other signs of what went on. He realized that her hoof prints in the mud ended a hundred feet or a hundred yards from where she actually was.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up. Shut up. Shut up.
Em Schulz: And there was no other prints around her actual body and it had been muddy.
Christine Schiefer: Oooh.
Em Schulz: So if there were prints they would've seen them.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: So it was almost as if she had been picked up at some point a, a while away and then placed here.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh.
Em Schulz: Harry obviously freaked out calls his sister Nellie who was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: The owner of Snippy and had to tell her what happened. And so Nellie comes out with her husband. Her husband's name is Berle which...
Christine Schiefer: No let's bring that shit back.
Em Schulz: Never heard that name before. Where does... What does Berle even...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't there a...
Em Schulz: What's that short for...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't there a name like Burl Ives. Isn't that a person? Burl Ives. Let's see. I'm sorry. His full name is Burl Icle Ivanhoe. Wait Burl Icle Ivanhoe Ives. Was an American musician and actor. Umm.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: You don't know Burl Ives he did like Rudolph the Red-Nosed reindeer like the original one.
Em Schulz: Oooh okay. I do know.
Christine Schiefer: And uh, stuff like that yeah.
Em Schulz: I know his work.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah you're familiar with his his work. Umm Burl... That's the only Burl I've ever heard of.
Em Schulz: Is Burl short for something else? .
Christine Schiefer: It's... I guess it's.
Em Schulz: I guess this is Burl. Well still think Earl isn't short for anything else.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. Uh I'll type in Burl name meaning.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Meaning knotty, knotty wood, knotty. Not naughty. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um.
Christine Schiefer: But...
Em Schulz: Knotty notty. Negaty.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Negaty, would tuft of wool, cup bearer or butler.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. A tuft of wool.
Em Schulz: [;aughter] I like how both of us couldn't have harmonized better with the okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It. It, it okay. I mean that doesn't really give me any sort of helpful information.
Em Schulz: It, it taught me nothing while we're at it. Can you look up Earl because that's another name I'm a little like...
Christine Schiefer: Uhh. Probably it means Earl like in... Like the title.
Em Schulz: Oh you're right. You're right, you're right. Like Prince or Duke whatever.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know maybe Burl... Maybe Burl is just meant to rhyme with Earl. Uh meaning nobleman, warrior or prince so...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Where... I wonder where Burl falls on the baby list these days because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Burl name popularity. Let's find out. Burl [laughter] Okay.
Em Schulz: Is it at...
Christine Schiefer: Popularity number 26,692.
Em Schulz: Oof. Burl. Burl... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a rough one.
Em Schulz: That's gross...
Christine Schiefer: Wait I wanna send you the chart. There is a chart. [laughter] It's like... Like fucking crash just like a stock market crash. Hold on [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's just nose dived?
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause this is so sad for Burls out there. Any Burls out there? [laughter] Umm I'm sending this to you.
Em Schulz: Oh It's... Oh also even worse Christine. I feel like it's probably tanked even further because it's Burl spelled B-E-R-L-E.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I'm so sorry. I did not do it that way.
Em Schulz: So can you look... Look that one up.
Christine Schiefer: R-L-E?
Em Schulz: B-E-R-L-E.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. It's, it filled in uh... Berle pants so maybe that's a thing. [laughter] Umm oh it's a baby girl name allegedly.
Em Schulz: Ooooh...
Christine Schiefer: Umm so that one.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I was gonna say that one's number 4,576. And then it says that data is from 1926.
Em Schulz: [gasp] wow. It's gone. That's an extinct name.
Christine Schiefer: And it says no data after that. Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So now that one is not even remotely on the fucking board.
Em Schulz: Oh Berle. Well okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: You know what? Maybe we just gave it the comeback it needed. The real kick in the pants.
Christine Schiefer: I hope so 'cause like what? Oh but also I wanted to mention that on this page it says are you looking for a sibling name for Berle? Here's some great options.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Beldon.
Em Schulz: Beldon.
Christine Schiefer: Beldon. [laughter] Beldon, Bray. Which Bray and Berle sounds like horse, sounds like horses.
Em Schulz: Berle and Bray, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Beldon though that's fun it means pretty valley.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: That's lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Bevis? Gascon... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Are they just, are these the Sims names? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like an AI was trying to write Sims less or something. [laughter],
Em Schulz: It feels like Xiinön's siblings have crash landed and [laughter]..
Christine Schiefer: It's, it does really? Oh my God.
Em Schulz: If your name is Gascon, I'm so sorry [laughter] like, that I'm making fun of it. Not like, I'm sorry for your name [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry that we're being so rude, but you know, Bevis means handsome face in French, so.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know. It's not the worst.
Em Schulz: What does Gascon mean?
Christine Schiefer: Gascon means a man from Gascony.
Em Schulz: Well, that's a, that's too on the nose. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's a little on the nose. It means nothing more than that. So, umm.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, well.
Christine Schiefer: So good. What about Gib?
Em Schulz: Moving on quick. Okay. Gib? Please stop I can't... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Marmion. These aren't names.
Em Schulz: Someone make a Sims family with all of these names. I'm begging you. [laughter] And make them all horses.
Christine Schiefer: But then the dad has to be, umm, what was his name again?
Em Schulz: Berle.
Christine Schiefer: No, our son. I mean our Sim.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: What was...
Em Schulz: Chremit? Wait, I don't know. Who were you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: You don't remember our, our Sim who would talk in Simlish and he would say.
Em Schulz: Oh. Chauncey. Chauncey Bliss.
Christine Schiefer: Chauncey, Chauncey Bliss [laughter] What is the name? Chauncey. That's a good name.
Em Schulz: I could totally hear Chauncey Bliss going, Gascon. Burl lah lah lah...
Christine Schiefer: It's time for... [laughter] It's time for your breakfast of oats and barley.
Em Schulz: Wow. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Eat your barley Berle.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna be ill, my stomach is starting to hurt. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Have we stretched this out long enough? Is everybody... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is the stupidest show [laughter]
Em Schulz: Does everybody want us to keep going? Okay um...
Christine Schiefer: Is anybody here? Probably not.
Em Schulz: If you recall about eight years ago we were talking about Nellie and Berle.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm. So Harry calls his sister Nellie and she brings her husband from the Sims, apparently named Berle.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And uh, tells them the very unfortunate news of what happened to their horse. So they end up going over to Harry's ranch to see what happened themselves. Umm, and they noticed all three of them noticed that Snippy's skull was so white and bleached that it didn't look like it was only two days ago that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: The skull was exposed to sun. It looked like it had been exposed directly to sunlight for years.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, but just the head. That is so weird.
Em Schulz: It's also weird 'cause I, I guess in the world of like potential UFO abductions, it's like they've used some sort of technology that suggests sun exposure or UV exposure that we aren't used to.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm, they also noticed that the skull had a bit of a pink tint to it, which I have no idea what that means.
Christine Schiefer: That's weird.
Em Schulz: Umm, when looking at the field itself that Snippy was in, they also found 15 different, uh, circular scorch marks.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And they were later described as similar to aircraft exhaust marks.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say. So they're like landing marks. Ooh, yuck.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. They also found, speaking of a UFO landing, they also found in the fields near these scorch marks, six odd indents in the ground that made a three foot circle. So...
Christine Schiefer: Six odd.
Em Schulz: Almost as if a UFO, like a three foot UFO landed in its little six little legs landed into the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Okay.
Em Schulz: They also realized that there was a 10 foot radius of bushes that had all somehow been, become flattened.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: As if, I guess like the UFO landed there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, they also, no. Oh, okay. So they went to go look at these bushes 'cause they're like, why is 10 feet of bushes all completely flattened?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Nellie goes to look at these bushes and finds on the leaves a bunch of jelly substance.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] What? Ectoplasm?
Em Schulz: It was green. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: But she went to touch it and it burned her hands...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: That she apparently like let go of it really quickly and her hand continued to burn until she washed it.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. That makes you wonder like what it could have been doing to her.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also like, I love that our soap on this planet is good enough to get rid of that situation.
Christine Schiefer: Great point too. I was gonna say you're that's a great point 'cause like my fear would be it would never leave my body or it would poison me forever. But it seems like Dawn did a number on that.
Em Schulz: In the, I was gonna say, in the world of 2023 social media, if this story came out today, you know people would be asking which soap she used and then that soap would used.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And then that soap would use like, would fully make it into like a media campaign of like, we can take care of alien splotches. You know, like what...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But speaking of Dawn, like remember when the fucking oil spill and they were like, the only soap used to clean ducklings. And I'm like, yeah, lord. And all the bottles have the animals on them.
Em Schulz: To this day, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They're all over that shit. Yes, to this day.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine instead like Dove Extra Care or Dove lotion just has a picture of Xiinön on it because like, it takes...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It gets rid of all of her oil spills.
Christine Schiefer: With like a big circle and like a line through it. Like no more. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So she touched this jelly, she like threw it back on the ground when it started to burn, she washed her hands. She also though found a piece of metal in these bushes that had horse hair on it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what. That's weird.
Em Schulz: So the, I guess the UFO thought is maybe this is like scrap metal from the UFO and the horse had in fact been on the...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: In the craft.
Christine Schiefer: They tried to like shove it into the craft and tear.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it didn't work or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I don't know.
Em Schulz: So they reported the horse's death to the police, but the sheriff declared uh Snippy cause of death to be lightning.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: He declared this even though there were no storms in the area and he hadn't even looked at the body. So...
Christine Schiefer: What a lunatic.
Em Schulz: He just said, oh, your horse is completely missing everything from the neck up and there's jellylike substances and scorch marks everywhere. Lightning.
Christine Schiefer: Ah. What are you hiding, sir?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I, either he's an idiot or he, I don't think he cares. I think he's like, oh, that's a dead horse. Who cares.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: He's rude, fucking rude.
Em Schulz: Days later. Uh, a, a man named Dr. Altshuler, he was like an award-winning pathologist. This part of the story feels fake. Not that in like a funny way, just like it truly, logically, I don't totally understand. I feel like I'm missing a chapter here. But a man named Dr. Altshuler, he was caught trespassing in a national park and the cops asked him what he was doing there. He said he was looking for UFOs. They said they were gonna take him in for trespassing. And he said, please don't. This will affect my reputation as an award-winning pathologist. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Sure. Weird reason. Um, and the police said, fine, we won't. We'll let you go but only if you help us look into this UFO case in, in Colorado.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay?
Em Schulz: I don't... This feels like the beginning of like a Disney movie where it doesn't totally have to connect entirely. They're just like giving you the beats.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You just kinda believe it. Yeah. You just like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Suspend your disbelief. It's almost like, um, like, uh, my favorite movie, Catch Me If You Can, where they're like, okay, the only way you don't go to prison is if you help the FBI...
Em Schulz: Yes!
Christine Schiefer: You know, like now you're, you're on the task force.
Em Schulz: Yes, exactly. And even that, I know that was based on a true story or maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.
Christine Schiefer: It was.
Em Schulz: I heard there's, I've heard there's controversy...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Around that now.
Christine Schiefer: There's definitely... Oh, interesting. I've meant to cover that since like the day we started the podcast. I still have, haven't done it, so...
Em Schulz: Well, I'm glad you haven't 'cause apparently the new plot...
Christine Schiefer: It's new.
Em Schulz: Twist in recent years is that a la Catch Me If You Can. He even made that whole story up for the movie. [chuckle] So...
Christine Schiefer: What? I'm like, I don't even know if that's more or less impressive that we all fell for it or what? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Like it was like that one detective wasn't enough. I have to fool everyone. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean Leo ended up portraying him. He did something right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't, I don't know what the whole story is there, but I've heard that there was...
Christine Schiefer: I had no idea.
Em Schulz: I would love for you to cover up so you can tell me 'cause I really don't know what's true and what's not. So...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I would love to.
Em Schulz: Uh, bababababa. So, yeah, a la Catch Me If You Can. This guy apparently is now in with the cops on, uh, helping with an alien case.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Em Schulz: Which like, I love that his dream was to find a UFO and then he stumbled upon cops who were like, here's a UFO. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He just happened. He just happened to, yeah stumble upon one. I mean, that must be nice.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine you're just looking for Bigfoot and then the people who find you have a direct connection to... For you to help with Bigfoot.
Christine Schiefer: They are like...
Em Schulz: How does that work?
Christine Schiefer: You only get to remove this shoplifting charge if you help us look for Bigfoot? Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. [laughter] That's what I was planning on anyway.
Em Schulz: It feels like, it's like a Lifetime quality in storytelling [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It really is...
Em Schulz: Lifetime movie.
Christine Schiefer: There's a few gaps. You have to kinda squint your eyes for it to make sense.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, it's easier to just accept what's happening before you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, so he goes to help out again, award-winning pathologist. So maybe he was useful on this kinda case.
Christine Schiefer: Well, with the goop and stuff, like, I feel like somebody.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A pathologist needs to analyze that.
Em Schulz: He also was, um, apparently known for, uh, his history with blood contain uh, blood coagulation.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: So I guess they were like, okay, well there's a dead animal if you wanna look at that blood.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: Um, so he goes to see Snippy and he realizes that Snippy's abdominal organs, lungs and thyroid are missing.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. What? Poor Snippy.
Em Schulz: Nobody noticed the incisions that would have been needed to remove the organs because they were so precisely done that they got ignored the first time around.
Christine Schiefer: That's terrifying.
Em Schulz: So not only neck up is everything missing, but apparently like neck down, there are other things missing that were just so perfectly handled that like no one even picked up on it.
Christine Schiefer: That's creepy. That's so, that has like vibes of when you, of those like urban legends or whatever when you get kidnapped and you wake up and like your, your back kinda aches 'cause they took your spleen out or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, ooh, it's so, so creepy.
Em Schulz: He also realized that there was no blood.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So here's a quote. "I have done hundreds of autopsies. You can't cut into a body without getting some blood, but there was no blood on the skin or on the ground, no blood anywhere. The outer edges of the skin were cut firm almost as if they had been cauterized by a modern day laser, but there was no cauterizing laser technology like that in 1967."
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So he's looking back on it and saying, now I can almost see what that would've been. Oh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's even creepier.
Em Schulz: So there was advanced technology we weren't privy to at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that. Ooh, I just got goosecam like into my hair.
Em Schulz: Uh, so in your... Oh, that's a new place.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Yeah. Yikes.
Em Schulz: The US Forest Service even came out and did radiation tests on the fields, and they said that the area that Snippy was found in, especially the scorch marks and the metal piece that they found.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And all of Harry, Nellie and Berle's boots, because they'd been walking on the fields, all tested positive for being radioactive.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, news began to spread of lady's death and she was accidentally renamed Skippy, or no Snippy, it's because her name got confused with the name of one of her parents. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So she didn't even...
Em Schulz: It just got...
Christine Schiefer: Get the proper name. Okay. Sad.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, uh, Snippy is actually one of her parent's names. Someone else, I saw another source that said like, it was because like someone had snipped into her to get her organs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: I was like, that's, um, by the way, speaking of horse puns, they fucking ate up using the word Snippy on the headlines when the story was big. They kept saying...
Christine Schiefer: Snippy snipped, open.
Em Schulz: Town, town is still Snippy about no answers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's so stupid. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: It's even worse than I thought.
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah. So basically one of the people that heard about Snippy once the news started spreading was Edward Condon of the Condon Report.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And he was in the middle of writing the Condon report at this time.
Christine Schiefer: So you mean...
Em Schulz: And he decided...
Christine Schiefer: He was on page 7,500?
Em Schulz: Yeah. You know, you know he only discovered 11,000 of the cases were unsolved.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Um, he decided he wanted to add Snippy to his report, and to do that, he sent his own doctors to go look at Snippy, and he sent over Dr. Adams, who determined that no unearthly causes were responsible. So couldn't be a UFO. I really, I feel like I, as a staunch believer who desperately wants all of Project Blue Book to just say out loud that there are aliens.
Christine Schiefer: Which is. Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: I feel like Edward Condon has become like my arch-nemesis because...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: It seems like every time he touches a case, he determines that it's like not a UFO.
Christine Schiefer: I like wanna smack the back of his head. Like, what are you trying to prove here, sir?
Em Schulz: Give me what I want and like...
Christine Schiefer: Give me something, anything.
Em Schulz: And maybe scientifically he's right, but like, I don't want him to be so...
Christine Schiefer: But like, he's probably not, and I think we can both agree about that.
Em Schulz: I think especially if he's literally been hired by like the Air Force and Project Blue Book. You don't think he's just doing PR for them?
Christine Schiefer: Hello.
Em Schulz: Like you don't think they're just giving him so much money he'll never have to work another day in his life.
Christine Schiefer: There's no ulterior motive.
Em Schulz: They're just telling him what to say.
Christine Schiefer: Bullshit.
Em Schulz: And who's Dr. Adams? Really? You know.
Christine Schiefer: Dr. Adams. Come on. I could come up with a better fake name than that. How about...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Dr. Schmadams?
Em Schulz: Dr. Burl Bevis Gascon.
Christine Schiefer: Burl [laughter] Burl, Dr. Burl. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, so anyway, they...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, [laughter] hang up. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, I was like really not having that. Um, so yeah, Edward Condon says that this is probably not connected to UFOs. I choose not to believe him, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And ultimately the, the general consensus is that Harry, Nellie, and Berle all had to be lying about what happened just because nothing else made sense. Even though all these people, there are pictures online of Snippy, the horse's body. And you can like see that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Like the skull alone. So like, something fucking happened.
Christine Schiefer: And, and like...
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: How do you say it was definitely not something unearthly because like, how do you even that seems like a, a negative, like how do you prove that? You know what I mean? Like.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't even make sense to make that a theory.
Em Schulz: We should start our own investigation team. And, um, the answer every time is aliens, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think that already exists and it's that guy with the hair. Could it be.
Em Schulz: I think that's, it's also...
Christine Schiefer: Ancient Aliens.
Em Schulz: It's also called [chuckle] It's also called, And That's Why We Drink. Where every story we cover...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're right.
Em Schulz: Must be an alien. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say also, I think we've tried to start a task force, like every episode we've ever done, so.
Em Schulz: I know one day. So uh...
Christine Schiefer: One day.
Em Schulz: Uh, they ended up, when everyone was, I guess said and done with this, or the story was getting kind of stale and they were like, "okay, well we can't figure it out. And you could have made this up for, I don't know, publicity."
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: They ended up, uh, moving Snippy's body to a veterinarian named, uh, Dr. Leary. Dr. Leary, uh, I didn't know this is something that you do. Apparently he boiled her bones and ar... Re-articulated them to like build out essentially a skeleton of like a display skeleton of her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, like taxidermy without everything but bones. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like where you put wire the bones together and all that.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like at a dinosaur exhibit or something?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So they did that. And during this, he ended up finding out that there were actually two bullet marks in her bones that hadn't been discovered at first. So...
Christine Schiefer: What!
Em Schulz: This is his, so this is his theory. Uh, he says, "I'm saying it's just a theory, but a couple of kids could have hit her with a couple of 22 slugs. Then the horse got scared, took off at a high lope and runs through a fence and basically did... "
Christine Schiefer: Poor baby.
Em Schulz: Cookie clothes line situation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh jeez.
Em Schulz: "Um, I've seen it before." I'm so, I'm so sorry for this sentence. "I've seen it before. That fence wire can clean an animal like a knife slicing cheese."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that is so fucked up.
Em Schulz: Which like no, no need for the flowery words there.
Christine Schiefer: That's... Seriously. That's so dark. Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: So basically he thinks that the horse got spooked and ran off and accidentally, like it'd be one thing if like that he thought with a thin fencing wire like that maybe the horse decapitated itself, but like to perfectly get 360 degrees of all of its skin...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Even in between the bones does not make sense.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't really, and like also for them to be bleached and also for it to be such a clean line around the neck doesn't make sense.
Em Schulz: Without bleeding.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's true too.
Em Schulz: Like what? Like perfectly cauterized. Like from what?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then also like, wouldn't flesh be everywhere?
Christine Schiefer: You'd think there'd be blood or hair on the fence or flesh. Yeah. Eugh. Skin would've had come off.
Em Schulz: If you, if you skinned your arm. Wouldn't the skin have to be on the ground somewhere?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I guess an animal could've taken it or something.
Christine Schiefer: I guess an animal. Yeah, that's true.
Em Schulz: But, um, and also why were her hoof prints that far away? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Great point.
Em Schulz: You know, it just doesn't make sense. But his big theory is, oh, the horse did this to itself. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh well... Okay. To be fair, the kids did it first. If they shot him. Shot her, the horse.
Em Schulz: Right. So interestingly, two college students later did admit to shooting Snippy. Um, this is in very, very few sources. It wasn't everywhere. But some think that they, that it could have just been like, it, maybe it wasn't them and maybe they just heard about it and then admitted to it because they wanted to be in on like the fame narrative. Like they just wanted to be part of the story. Um. And because even if they shot her, like explain the rest of her body, like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. True.
Em Schulz: All they did was admit to like maybe shooting at her. Which like, we don't even know if that's true, but they never said like, oh yeah, I went out with a scalp in the middle of the night and removed every part of her head. Like, that's not...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Right. So, um, anyway, there was one guy who had, uh, he was a biochemist that I guess came out and looked at Snippy, who was very anti-UFO, Uh, he said, "are we to believe that creatures from outer space with the ability to travel a hundred light years would do so only to attack a pony?" It's like, okay. I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Okay first of all, fucking relax. And also like, stop fucking dismissing her.
Em Schulz: Also pony felt condescending.
Christine Schiefer: Like that's exactly what I was gonna say. Like, again, like Em said earlier, put some fucking respect and dignity on her name. All right. [laughter] She's a horse and you are acting like she's just trolloping around and is worth nothing to some aliens, but maybe she's really special and maybe the aliens were studying. So who the fuck knows? How would you know guy?
Em Schulz: You know what the best part... You know what the best part of this biochemist, he's gonna be the wildest thing we talk about today because, so he, again, it felt very patronizing when he said pony instead of horse.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It was like you wanted, you wanted her to feel small. That was like, uncool.
Christine Schiefer: Like dismissive. Yeah.
Em Schulz: On top of that, would you like to know what his story is? A biochemist. Would you like to know what his fucking story is?
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: This guy would've been in QAnon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, absolutely. Tell me.
Em Schulz: He very, an very anti-UFO but also very anti-government it seems. Essentially his theory boils down to this. The government has not been telling us, but has deposited radioactive waste throughout the state of Colorado. There's just radioactive waste falling everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Sure.
Em Schulz: This led to colonies of radioactive ants because they were eating...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. What?
Em Schulz: Because they were eating the waste, the, the radioactive waste that was falling everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? [laughter]
Em Schulz: So now the ants are becoming radioactive, Snippy at some point got sick on a field and, and on this field must have been one of the colonies of radioactive ants. Snippy is so sick that she falls into the bushes, apparently in a perfect 10 foot circular radius.
Christine Schiefer: Flat and flatten around a circle.
Em Schulz: Right?
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And also like, I don't know, rubbed jelly all over these bushes, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And uh, then after falling into the bushes, eventually faints in the pasture, which is where the radioactive ants come after Snippy and eat only Snippy 's face off perfectly and nothing else. That's his thought. Well, like aliens is crazy.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say. Wow. Um, he should have kept his mouth shut. 'Cause I feel like everyone would've believed him if he just said, no aliens. But then the second part, everyone's like, you lost me bud. You lost me.
Em Schulz: Yeah [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The ants.
Em Schulz: It's like... I like to think that like in an investigative journalist took him to like a pub after work and he really just started like drunk spewing theories.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And this is what the, the journalist got. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And they were like, oh, now we've got gold. [laughter]
Em Schulz: This is a hook. No, I...
Christine Schiefer: This is a real hook.
Em Schulz: But yeah, I was like, okay, radioactive ants. That's something that like my Virginia family would still probably believe, they probably think that radioactive ants...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like a Facebook troll like post that got went viral, but from the Onion or something.
Em Schulz: Like, and also, okay, so let's pretend that that happened. Um, where, what, what happened to these radioactive ants? Where the hell did they go? Like they were there in the 60s and then they ate one horse face and they're all gone? What happened? Like, what's that?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Okay. Great point. Maybe the aliens came down a hundred light years to examine the ants.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And now they're all gone.
Em Schulz: Another, another theory I found on like some like weird blog forum was that, um, what if the, uh, oh my God, what was it? I didn't keep it 'cause I was like, that's just not right. But they were like, what if the horse actually was an alien that died on the ship and they just like turned it into a horse to like fit into the scene? Like, what if it was just an alien that they found that was like, and I was like, what... The theories are endless. Like it could be radioactive ants.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, [laughter]
Em Schulz: It could be like, why would, anyway, anyway, we can't even get into it all.
Christine Schiefer: And then what happened to Lady? [laughter] If that wasn't Lady then who was, was Lady an alien the whole time?
Em Schulz: Where did she go?
Christine Schiefer: Um, Oh my God. [laughter], this is giving me a headache.
Em Schulz: Anyway. So there has in, uh, recent years, 'cause I guess people did note that the field was radioactive. Apparently that's where the ants hung out to. [laughter] Umm, so there has in recent years actually been problems in Jefferson County, Colorado with elevated levels of plutonium in their soil. Oh sure. Umm, to a point where the county is actually looking to like, like maybe this is a lawsuit kind of situation.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, but it was years ago it was near an old nuclear plant. Jefferson County is three and a half hours away from Alamosa, and they have done a lot to try to clean up the area. So and also that was in 2019, not 1967. So, there's, it's a moot point in, in terms of this topic. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: And it doesn't, the ants are still not explained, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And they never found radioactive ants...
Christine Schiefer: Like what...
Em Schulz: In actually radioactive soil. So.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like, what are you talking about?
Em Schulz: Another quick theory is that, umm, in the late '60s, this was near Satanic panic, so maybe they thought Snippy was part of an animal sacrifice, but there's no evidence of that. Umm, although it makes the most sense currently because at least like they would explain why it looked like a person operated on Snippy's head.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. That is true. I feel like if back then I probably, if I lived in that period, I probably would've believed that.
Em Schulz: I would believe it.
Christine Schiefer: I think that for a time is.
Em Schulz: More than radioactive ants.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I think for the time that that theory makes the most logical, quote unquote, "sense".
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, and to this day it's still a mystery. Her death is considered the start of the livestock mutilation reports and the stigma around mutilation in UFO lore. Umm, Snippy's skeleton was moved from Dr. Leary's after he like built, rebuilt her, and it traveled around town, I guess, like people like had a lease on her or something and she just ended up moving around. So she was in a museum for a while. She was literally on the sidewalk outside of the Chamber of Commerce. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Which I, can you imagine being a Tourist and there's just like an, an a horse skeleton outside Town Hall.
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine being a child and being like, this horse was murdered by aliens anyway, onto the store. It's like, I'd be so traumatized.
Em Schulz: Well, here's my favorite one, apparently. I don't know how this guy got ahold of her, but this one guy named Carl Heflin Uh, Had Snippy's body for two decades in his house and which, and he collected a lot of weird shit apparently out in his yard. There were two box cars, like full on railroad box cars.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: One was filled with shower stalls and one was filled with doors. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. What?
Em Schulz: So he, He was, I, they call him a collector. I'm feeling like there's some other weird tendencies going on there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He just maybe couldn't let things go. I don't totally understand.
Christine Schiefer: "Eccentric", quote unquote.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Umm, of course he would have like a potential horse abductee skeleton also.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, and when he died, his family was get, going through all of his doors and shower stalls, I guess, and they found the skeleton and they were like, "I wonder how much this would be worth." I guess they knew it was Snippy and they were like, "I wonder how much Snippy would be worth." So they hired someone at, uh, an insurance office to sell it and they literally just.
Christine Schiefer: What? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: They just hired this one guy named Frank, and he.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine being Frank, you're like, hello. It's like 9:30 AM [laughter] And they're like, "we have a quick question for you." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, and also they hired him to just put it on eBay, like, which is like the most like boomer thing I can imagine. Like I don't how...
Christine Schiefer: It was literally on eBay?
Em Schulz: They paid him to put it on eBay when like, you could've just done that yourself. That...
Christine Schiefer: That's how he sold it. It wasn't, I thought it was gonna be like he went through some channels, some back channels, but no, it was just eBay. Cool.
Em Schulz: Well. He, I'm sure he was like, how the fuck do I sell a horse skeleton? He was just.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Seriously, why do you call him Frank?
Em Schulz: Also I think this was, it was 2006, I think this was like during eBay's like heyday.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So I think he was just like "eBay, I, you Gotta do it."
Christine Schiefer: He's like "I know this great new service, [laughter], it's, it's called Craig's List and he's gonna help us. I'm gonna call Craig and he's gonna settle this fucking horse skeleton for me."
Em Schulz: With, with the amount of stuff that's been sold on Craigslist. Like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: That can't be the weirdest.
Christine Schiefer: No definitely not. I'm sure if you say said like, mauled by radioactive ants, people would be like, oh cool, I'll bid on that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, that sounds right. So for, so also that means for a time while Frank was trying to sell it on eBay, it was just sitting in the, like an empty back room in an insurance office. So like, I imagine your first day at an at, I don't know, I'm trying to think of an insurance group.
Christine Schiefer: Like Nationwide?
Em Schulz: Yeah. You just, and you just go into like the break room for a snack and there's a whole ass horse skeleton and you're like, what is this about?
Christine Schiefer: It would fit if it was like GEICO and you could be like, it's just one of our new advertising campaigns. You know how funny you are.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: On the TV.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or like Allstate with like the, the, the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the...
Em Schulz: The Mayhem guy.
Christine Schiefer: Mayhem guy, yeah. Is that Allstate?
Em Schulz: Is it? I dunno. I think, I don't dunno. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: State Farm, I have no idea. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Something, something. Imagine Jake from State Farm and this horse, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Jake from State Farm, [laughter], why do insurance companies have all these fucking gimmicks? I'm like realizing all of a sudden.
Em Schulz: You know what? But we just gave three of them a lot of good time, so [laughter] I hope they're happy.
Christine Schiefer: What The fuck?
Em Schulz: So Frank used eBay, he started the bid at 10 grand for this horse skeleton, or I'm sorry, wow he started the, he started the bid at 50 grand.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Umm, 50 grand I think.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: 'Cause it was, not only was it a pretty in, I imagine intact skeleton of a horse, but it also had like, you know, local history. It was potentially like the product of a UFO abduction.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like if, I mean, if you're a massive cryptid fan.
Christine Schiefer: If you're Zak Bagans.
Em Schulz: If you're Zak Bagans, like that's the thing you put in your encrypted museum, you know? So the local paper announced like, "Hey, Snippy the horse, remember her from a few decades ago. She's on sale on fucking eBay."
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: And locals lost their mind. Everybody started writing in being like, no, no, no. Like I knew Snippy. I'm part of the story. I'm part of the narrative. I deserve her. I actually, you know, my.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: We're the ones that have the skeleton, that's a fake skeleton. Like all these stories started circling.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: One of them, her name was Sylvia Lobato, and she claimed that her mom was Nellie's best friend.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And her, she was quoted saying, "I remember that day in '67 when Nellie called our house. My mother got off the phone and said, flying saucers killed Nellie's horse." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine just looking at your.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine looking at your child and being like, guess what the fuck just happened? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You'll never believes this.
Em Schulz: Flying saucers killed Nellie's horse.
Christine Schiefer: You'll never...
Em Schulz: By the way.
Christine Schiefer: Believe what, what I just heard.
Em Schulz: That girl has to officially have full trauma because as a child she was told, oh, flying saucers kill. And also cute little animals that, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Well then everywhere she goes, she sees that fucking skeleton on the sidewalk. She can't escape it. It's like in everyone's house. And it's like at the bank.
Em Schulz: She claims she also saw the horse right after the flying saucers came and killed it. She says, from the neck up, that horse was peeled. It was just pure.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh!
Em Schulz: It was just pure white bones. The horse had only been dead for a night, but it looked like it had been dead for months. Nellie was there with us and she found a piece of metal next to the horse. It was covered in horse hair. When she picked it up, it burned her and she screamed and dropped it. Her hand was badly burned. I was there and I saw it.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Which like, she didn't say anything though that like you couldn't have gotten from the papers at the time.
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: So like.
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: I don't, we don't know. But also relatives of Nellie, after Nellie had passed, those relatives were saying they had grown up hearing the stories and they actually owned the skeleton or they knew where the skeleton had been moved, or they deserved to now own the skeleton.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: The Ch, The Chamber of Commerce said that they at one point owned the skeleton, I guess when it sat on the sidewalk.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then they tried to start a save Snippy fund to get the horse back.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Umm, so even though they Frank put it on eBay for 50 grand, it only went for 10 grand. And I guess the heir to the one that hired Frank to help them out, umm, he was like, 10 grand isn't enough. Like let's take the post down. I don't even want 10 grand for it. So they ends it up just like getting rid of the auction and they just moved Snippy to a warehouse.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: And as of the last year, Snippy's body is now in Cooper, Colorado at the UFO Watchtower, which I think you and I need to go to eventually.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was gonna say, I'm sorry. The what now?
Em Schulz: The UFO Watchtower is a watchtower, a full 360 degree view of the valley. Umm, and it's on like the Cosmic Highway. It's like a, a highway where everyone claims to see UFOs.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But you can get a view of the Cosmic Highway, you can get a view of the whole area. Umm, and apparently Snippy's body is now also there, umm. But anyway, even without solid answers, Snippy's death is one of the thousands of solved incidents in the Condon report. So even though there's 700 unsolved.
Christine Schiefer: Oh really?
Em Schulz: She is apparently one of the 12,000, which keeps me stressed out about the Condon report because I don't believe it, because.
Christine Schiefer: Fishy.
Em Schulz: They said that they, I guess the solving was that Nellie lied and all this was fake.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, I could...
Em Schulz: That was the.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I could, I could solve every crime ever by saying that, I mean, that doesn't...
Em Schulz: I know!
Christine Schiefer: Mean anything.
Em Schulz: So, again, again, if it was like truly like a, a weather vein or like something.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like that could prove if there was evidence. But now I feel like all 12,000 reports are like, I didn't wanna do the work...
Christine Schiefer: How are we supposed believe it?
Em Schulz: They're lying. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. How are we supposed to believe any of that? It was radioactive ants. Really. Like, come on.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Anyway, that is Snippy the horse.
Christine Schiefer: AKA Lady the horse.
Em Schulz: AKA Lady the horse.
Christine Schiefer: Poor Lady.
Em Schulz: And her radioactive friends.
Christine Schiefer: Poor baby. I am shook by that story. I, I feel like we should post a picture of one of like the headlines that you were talking about.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, you can find a lot of them.
Christine Schiefer: And... Yeah. Okay. We should look those up and uh, post one.
Em Schulz: Umm, I'm looking up, Umm, horse puns to close out my, my section.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I have a list.
Em Schulz: Here we go.
Christine Schiefer: From earlier [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Do you have any, any, any good ones?
Christine Schiefer: The only one I that I liked the best was, umm, was my stirrup joke. Stirrup some trouble.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm.
Em Schulz: How about...
Christine Schiefer: I don't remember the rest.
Em Schulz: This, this story will have a colt following.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I saw that one too. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well get off your high horse.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That was good. That was good. That was Good. That was good.
Em Schulz: And just like that we're done with Snippy.
Christine Schiefer: Man. Uh, speak as speaking of, uh, spur of the moment. No, that doesn't work. [laughter] Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That worked. Spur cowboy. I dunno.
Christine Schiefer: Sort of, but it didn't make sense in the context of our conversation.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sorry.
[womp womp womp womp trumpet sound]
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Okay. All just 'cause I'm not plugged into my mixer today. I can't fucking make any sound effects for your dumb jokes. Oh Lord. Okay. Let me pull up my story because Em I swear this might be one of my favorite stories I've covered today. And I, I, I don't wanna say favorite again. I mean, we all know what I mean, right? Like it's.
Em Schulz: Yes, yes. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously fucked up, but it's like one of the most, I think, interesting and bizarre cases. Umm, and unlike 12,000 of Mr. Condon's cases, this one is unsolved and remains unsolved.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. So let me pull it up. It is called the Hall-Mills Murder. And the way that this has been described online is sort of like the most sensational case of the time that you've never heard of today. Like.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God, some.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, somebody described it as almost like pretty much as a equivalent sensation wise as the OJ Simpson case in the '90s. Like, that's how...
Em Schulz: Holy Shit.
Christine Schiefer: Like wild this media circus got about this. So.
Em Schulz: So what else was going on during this time for us to not even recall it quickly?
Christine Schiefer: Uh.
Em Schulz: Like what, what was the time period for this?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, 1922 I believe was the year. Uh, and I don't know because to be honest, like I, I feel like there are some cases from, well, I guess a lot of them have kind of just faded away over time. Umm.
Em Schulz: I wonder if they faded away or like the Great Depression and a bunch of World War happened, so maybe they were like.
Christine Schiefer: That's true, I mean, yeah.
Em Schulz: And we got stuff going on.
Christine Schiefer: We got prohibition. Like there was just a lot of shit happening. Umm, so maybe that is what it is. Like maybe over time it just got lost in the shuffle of all the other bullshit going on.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but I'm here to revive the tale. So. And this is...
Em Schulz: On its hundred, hundred first birthday?
Christine Schiefer: Yes that's right. It's, it's over 100 years old now. That is just very true. So Edward Wheeler Hall is our first character. He was born in 1881. And by the way, there are some, umm, a web of relations, so you might need your gargoyles, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: I got my gargs.
Christine Schiefer: Great. So Edward Wheeler Hall, he was born in 1881 and grew up, uh, as a, in a middle class family in Brooklyn, New York. He met his wife in 1911 and her name was Francis Noel Stevens. And she, uh, oh, sorry. My mom just texted me a picture of a vacuum cleaner. Okay, my bad. Lemme get back to this. [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That sucks.
Christine Schiefer: I have, I have my like work my like do not disturb set so that my mom's texts come through because she's usually watching Leona while I record and then sometimes she just sends me a picture of a vacuum and I'm like, this is not why I took you off my do not disturb list. Okay.
Em Schulz: I, I tried, I tried to make a vacuum pun, but it did not land. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That sucks. That's.
Em Schulz: That's, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, is that what you said?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit I thought I was making the pun about your joke sucking. But you clearly made the...
Em Schulz: Well it obviously wasn't very good if you're, if it just, we both thought the same thing immediately.
Christine Schiefer: That's so I'm sad I missed it. I bet you I'm gonna get tweets about that. Okay. Umm, so he married his wife Francis Noel Stevens in 1911, and he studied theology in New York City. The year is 1922. Now we're fast forwarding. He is 41 years old, Edward Hall, and he is living with his wife Francis, in New Brunswick, where he worked as an Episcopal reverend at St. John the Evangelist Episcopal Church.
Em Schulz: Whoo!
Christine Schiefer: So he's married to Francis and he is working as a reverend. Some people thought his marriage to Francis wa-was just a marriage of convenience because, uh, when he was 28 years old, he had actually been courting a woman his age, but then ended up proposing to Francis, who was seven years older than him.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: And she was extremely wealthy because she was part of the Johnson & Johnson family.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh my God. Okay. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So she had their privilege and wealth behind her. So some people basically speculated that he married her for the money and for the lifestyle.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it was also described in newspapers at the time, because this is what people talked about when they discussed women, that she was a homely woman and didn't look like she came from money. [chuckle] So very fucking...
Em Schulz: Frumpy dumpty is what it sounds like.
Christine Schiefer: Rude, yeah.
Em Schulz: That's, it's awful.
Christine Schiefer: That's what they were implying that like, why else would he marry her? Like it's just, it's just, you know, nasty stuff.
Em Schulz: Imagine being famous enough that your name is in papers and that's all people say about you. I just, can you imagine?
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, why can't, why else would anyone marry you? It's like Jesus Christ, what a low blow.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Really, really rude. Um. However, now that he has married Francis, he has, he's this widely respected reverend. He has financial power. He's in a, he's a pillar of the community, so to speak. And regardless of why they married, he and Francis seem happy enough together. So life goes on. Now we introduce the next character of our story. Her name is Eleanor Mills, uh, maiden name Reinhardt. She had been born in 1887 and had grown up in New Brunswick. Her father was a factory laborer and that she was one of 10 children. So his, he, she came from a lower class background. I guess if you are comparing the Johnson & Johnson fortune and this...
Em Schulz: With anyone else.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Woman, with, with literally anyone, but especially someone who grew up in such a, such a blue collar...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Family with so many kids.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So, Eleanor, unlike Francis, was described as a great beauty. She was a talented singer and many people admired her voice. She made her own clothes, which were said to always fall and look really beautiful on her. And she loved to read. She said reading made her dream. She loved to study and learn. She even gave speeches about topics she read about to the people around her. And she also spoke German, 'cause that was her family's native language. So all around, she was a very interesting person, a beautiful person, and a very charming person. So a lot of people admired her. When she was 15, she met a man named Jim Mills, who was 24. And descriptions of Jim are slightly less flattering than those of Eleanor. Uh, his brother said they used to call him Simple Jim, when they were kids.
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: And he was described also as, quote, "colorless as a catfish, dim, and meek."
Em Schulz: Okay. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Just rude.
Em Schulz: So interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Just rude.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But Eleanor liked him and they started dating. And even though he was nine years older than her, uh, she dropped out of school her senior year when she turned 18, and the two of them got married in 1905. What people didn't know is that she was secretly pregnant with their first child already. So they got married privately without telling any family, had their daughter. And then a few years later, Eleanor gave birth to their second child, a son. Now here is where our two families collide.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Jim worked as a janitor at St. John the Evangelist Episcopal Church.
Em Schulz: Okay, got it.
Christine Schiefer: He was the maintenance man and caretaker at the church where our other main character, Edward, was the reverend.
Em Schulz: Right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So they were a family of four. They had these two kids. Eleanor also worked as a cleaner, and she sang in the choir at the church. And together, the two of them had very little money to support their family, but they did their best. And unfortunately, in addition to their money troubles, they were also extremely unhappy in their marriage. According to friends and Eleanor's own children, Eleanor was a devoted homemaker. She made her family's clothes. She even made like home decor on a shoestring budget just to make sure that they were always in a festive and happy environment. She cooked all day. She was very good at it. People loved the German food she cooked, but she and Jim just never got along. He would get irritated with her when she would use her money occasionally to buy things like a new chair for the apartment or something to make the, the house a little nicer. And they never physically fought, but they'd get in these massive yelling matches and their...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Neighbors sure often overheard their like, like verbal altercations back and forth.
Em Schulz: And, and this is a few years down the road, 'cause I mean, they got married. Right? So they were happy at one point.
Christine Schiefer: They did. So they got married when? In 1905. Umm, and so now we're in 1922, so...
Em Schulz: '22 Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So their kids are like pre-teen teenage years at this point, and they've been married for a while and you know, she was 15 when they started dating, so, you know.
Em Schulz: Ooh okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's been a long time and it's been like the only person she has been with.
Em Schulz: Got it. Okay. I just wanted to, I wanted to make sure they were in love at some point. Okay. Got it.
Christine Schiefer: I think so. Or at least she got pregnant and they got married.
Em Schulz: Or at least she was 15 and he was a grown ass man. Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Precisely. Precisely. Umm, another thing that seemed to really bother Jim, which I can understand why this would bother you. Umm, I'm not shaming her for it, but I'm just saying, I, I kind of get why this would irk the other person is whenever they would argue she would cover her ears and start singing [chuckle], to like block...
Em Schulz: Oh, I would lose my mind. Simply.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? I like lose my ever loving mind.
Em Schulz: I, I truly, and and she would do that or he would do that?
Christine Schiefer: She would do that.
Em Schulz: Oh, I really wanted to be on her side. But that's a real, that's a real red flag for me. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. No, it's really annoying. But you know, to be fair, I don't know what he was saying. Maybe he was just a fucking and verbally abusive man and she was like...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck it, I'm done. Like, who knows? I don't know the details. I'm just saying in my experience if someone did that, I'd be like, this is a joke. Like, I'm gonna punch the wall.
Em Schulz: I just know later when Allison and I have to talk about these mugs one more time...
Christine Schiefer: The mugs [laughter]
Em Schulz: If Allison does that, I will absolutely scream. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna buy you 12 more mugs if that happens umm...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Basically everyone around them, like their neighbors who weren't really close to them or anything, but, but just heard them arguing all the time. Everyone said they could not stand each other besides, uh...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The fact that they were married. So at some point, uh, Eleanor and Jim kinda gave up on their relationship, but at this time you didn't really get divorced. That wasn't really the norm. So instead, Eleanor moved bedrooms to share a room with their daughter, Charlotte and Jim shared a room with their son, Daniel. So despite living in totally, totally different social spheres, the Halls and Mills only lived a few blocks from each other. And of course they both knew each other from church. There's Reverend Edward and his wife, the Johnson & Johnson heiress, and now there's Eleanor and Jim who both clean at the church and Eleanor sings in the choir.
Christine Schiefer: The Halls sometimes would hire Jim also for odd jobs outside of the church maintenance position. So they would like ask him to house sit while they went on trips or they, they tried to help them financially, if that makes sense. Like they would hire him for odd jobs and try to support the family. Umm, they also arranged a church loan for Eleanor because she needed a kidney removed at one point. And so...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: They, they like arranged the finances for that. So they took care of the family as best as they could. And Eleanor and Francis, the two wives were also friends. And Francis would give Eleanor small gifts like vegetables from her mansion's gardens. [laughter] She's like...
Em Schulz: I, I'm sorry, you said...
Christine Schiefer: The gardener put these.
Em Schulz: Not only mansions, but you said garden plural, gardens.
Christine Schiefer: Plural. [laughter] I didn't even think about that.
Em Schulz: From the mansion's gardens.
Christine Schiefer: She's like has to share a room with her daughter 'cause she's in an unhappy marriage and this woman's like, "One of my many gardens grew eggplants this year. Here you go." Like wow. So delightful. Umm.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Woe was her. She had just too many. She needed to give them away. So really you're doing her a favor.
Christine Schiefer: I know. They're gonna go bad anyway, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And also Eleanor could turn that into some beautiful German dish that she might share with the church.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know? Umm, she would also like sometimes give her fabric because she liked to sew and make clothes and in return, sometimes Eleanor would embroider pieces for Francis and the church. So they just had a friendly relationship. And over the years, Eleanor became one of the most influential parishioners at St. John because she was so involved with the community and with the choir. And many people started to think this lady's gone a little over the line, like she's a little too involved in the church and has too much power over the rest of the congregation. But the Reverend Edward always backed her up so people didn't really have much room to do anything about it. Nobody knows when, but at some point Edward and Eleanor start having an Affair with a capital A. I think we...
Em Schulz: Yep. Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Most of us probably saw that coming, umm.
Em Schulz: I sure did.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: The gargoyles start crisscrossing and making out with each other. Umm, [laughter] they kept... Just if you need a visual everybody. Umm, they would keep diaries for each other and they would write each other love letters. And in the meantime, Eleanor would spend hours working at the church every day just to be around Edward. So it was pretty obvious to most people that this was going on. Edward would even go to the Mills house like sometimes several nights a week for dinner, like just to come over for dinner. So he was brazen enough that he would go and like sit at their dinner table. Umm...
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: With the husband. Yeah. So kind of sadly, Charlotte, the daughter said those years were the happiest she had ever seen her mother. And according to her, Eleanor was smiling more, singing more, and just seemed content with life for the first time that her daughter had ever seen.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The couple tried their best to be secret about their relationship, but of course as always, there were rumors among the congregation. There were rumors throughout town. People just kind of knew this was happening.
Em Schulz: Sure. Well, also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you can see a complete behavior change too and you wonder what the...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: Common...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: Common denominator is, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Those rumors about Edward and Eleanor were confirmed when the two of them were found laying side by side under a crabapple tree surrounded by their torn up love letters and both had been shot in the head.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, simple Jim. What did you do?
Christine Schiefer: So on September 16th, 1922, 15-year-old Pearl Bahmer and 23-year-old Ray Schneider found the bodies of Edward Halls and Eleanor Mills under a crabapple tree in New Brunswick, New Jersey. They were walking down a local lover's lane sort of place when they saw Hall and Mills under the tree from a distance, and they thought that they were sleeping so they tried to walk by to find their own more private spot, but on their way back from their little make-out session or whatever they were doing, uh, Pearl noticed that the couple was still lying in the exact same positions. And so, she started to get worried and she told Ray to go check it out. And when he went to go check it out, he realized that these two people were dead and they had been dead for several days.
Em Schulz: [sucks teeth] Can you imagine it like the hindsight of realizing that you had been looking at dead people this whole time? It didn't even...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and then you went for a make-out session and then you came back. Oh God.
Em Schulz: Like what a... I mean, I know it's like, I know it was not like anything they could have controlled or they wouldn't have known. But like, I would lose sleep at night thinking about like, "Oh, I was just next to dead people this whole time and I was making out next to them and I had no idea."
Christine Schiefer: It's disturbing. It's like that...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Thing we talk about, like, you walk by so many serial killers in a lifetime, it's like, oh, hindsight is...
Em Schulz: It's like how many, how many times was a dead body next to me and I didn't notice it? Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, it's so eerie.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they, they realized this couple was dead. They rushed to a nearby house to use the phone and call the police. And Pearl and Ray, uh, told the police they had just been out looking for mushrooms because they didn't want like a scandal about their little romantic affair.
Em Schulz: Tryst. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Their tryst. So Ray...
Em Schulz: Well, so Ray... You said, you... Sorry. Keep going.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, you can go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, well, weren't they also 15 and 23? Is this just normal back then?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say they were 15 and 23. Yeah. I didn't put that together until you just said that. [chuckle] I guess it was normal.
Em Schulz: And then the couple you mentioned earlier was 15 and 24.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's a little weird. I don't think I realized that. But they, I guess were self-aware enough to realize this could be a scandal. So they lied and said they were just out hunting for mushrooms on lover's lane as you do. So.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Anyway, I do that all the time.
Christine Schiefer: Just a simple mistake.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I know you do. Umm, see, see Allison I told you. Em's just out mushroom hunting. Don't worry about it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So Ray led police back to the scene where he had found these bodies and, uh, showed them where Eleanor and Edward had been arranged carefully under a crab apple tree. Now I'm gonna paint this picture for you. It's pretty horrific. So their feet were facing the tree, and they were lying on their backs, roughly a foot apart. Their legs were both crossed right over left at the ankles. Edward's arm was positioned so that Eleanor's head was resting on his arm, and one of Eleanor's hands was positioned to rest on Edward's thigh. So it was almost as if they were just like two lovers lounging in the sun, like...
Em Schulz: Just snuggling.
Christine Schiefer: Just snuggling. Edward was wearing dress shoes and a nice suit with a gold tie clasp that matched the gold ring on his finger. And he had a Panama hat tilted over his face almost as if he was like, napping and put it over his face to block the sun. Like it looked like they had been laying there sunbathing, which is why presumably these teenagers didn't realize they were dead at first. Meanwhile, Eleanor's blue velvet hat was on the ground behind her head, almost like she was using it as like a little pillow. And she was wearing a blue and red polka dot dress that was described as clearly lower quality than Edward's suit. So there we already have like the social class discrepancy.
Em Schulz: Wow. And just the description of the news, it's already letting you know that these...
Christine Schiefer: It's already. Yes, exactly. It's, it's rough. Uh, she also had a brown silk scarf wrapped around her neck. So police realized pretty quickly they were just over the county border. So one of them said, this is no case of ours, and just fucking like, peaced out.
Em Schulz: He was like, I know this is gonna be a wild ride. And I'd want nothing to do with it.
Christine Schiefer: Right? I feel like some police force should be like, no, this is our, well, maybe I just watched too much Criminal Minds, but I feel like there's that trope of like, no, this is our case. No, this is our case, but this guy's like it is not mine. You can have it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He went...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I was gonna, I was gonna quit next week anyway. Please don't make me do this.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, yeah, respect. Maybe he's retiring, I don't know. But he was like, I don't wanna be part of this. So they went back to the house, got ahold of Somerset County police from Franklin Township and said, "Hey, we got a case for you. We don't want it." So as all this fucking rigamarole is happening, uh, a reporter catches wind of what's going on, and he is from, uh, a newspaper called The Daily Home News. And he arrives and immediately starts inspecting the bodies before the police have even like, notated anything.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He found some sheets of paper with handwriting on them, sort of ripped up into big pieces and like stacked between the couple. They were love letters from Eleanor to Edward. Now I have, uh, I have a sample of these love letters. Would you like me to read them to you?
Em Schulz: More than anything on this earth.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, excellent. So Eleanor had written this to Edward. "Oh honey, I am fiery today."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: "Burning..."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Your reaction already... I thought oh fair, though.
Em Schulz: Immediately this feels like when you held my hand on stage and sang me a love letter. I was almost...
Christine Schiefer: I know. That's why when you said you want this, want me to read this more than anything else, I was like, oh, okay. I'm gonna fucking take my chance and run with it now.
Em Schulz: I thought it was gonna say like some Nicholas Spark shit. Okay, I know what direction we're heading now. Let's go.
Christine Schiefer: "Oh honey, I am fiery today. Burning, flaming love. The Lord is always near." Did you know which direction we're going? No.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No. Why is the Lord involved in this now? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he's always near Em. [laughter] What the fuck do you think?
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay, keep going.
Christine Schiefer: "The Lord is always near in whatever we do, even in our physical closeness. Okay. Yikes. For we know He meant for his children to taste deeply of all things."
Em Schulz: Ew. Taste what?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What are we tasting?
Christine Schiefer: Basically, I think she was implying like our, umm, our physical romance, our passion is, umm, is A-okay with God because he wants his children to feel deeply and like, feel the passions of the earth. It's like, okay, whatever you...
Em Schulz: OOof
Christine Schiefer: Need to tell yourself to sleep at night, you know. If the Lord is in bed with you, whatever you say.
Em Schulz: I would assume since you're having an affair with a reverend, he would have something to say about lust. But I guess he's really ignoring a lot of things right now.
Christine Schiefer: I think they're just like leaning into it like, no, no, no. God likes this. This is different. God likes this one. He's into it on this, on this page, on this one.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So here's another note. "Sweetheart, my true heart, I know there are girls with more shapely bodies, but I'm not caring what they have. I have the greatest part of all blessings. A noble man's deep, true, eternal love. How impatient I am and will be. I want to look up into your dear face for hours as you touch my body close."
Em Schulz: Ugh, gross. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm sure I know that's like, I don't know what's wrong with me but...
Christine Schiefer: Em is so like skittish about...
Em Schulz: I just, I just, when look, I'm being, I have it in the back of my mind that publicly everyone's gonna hear me listening to this and it really freaks me out 'cause I feel like it's already a private moment between two people I don't know. And now I have to hear it and you're telling it to me.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I, I...
Em Schulz: It's, it's a lot of intimacy.
Christine Schiefer: I understand. I will say there was a part, uh, I didn't keep this in my notes, but there was one article that mentioned that the, I think it's actually an excerpt from a book, but the author mentioned that one court clerk had to read this transcript aloud to the courtroom and he was like burning red, like so embarrassed.
Em Schulz: Oh I'm Sure. I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like imagine having to draw straws to be that guy who has to read this aloud on the stand. Like.
Em Schulz: You know, everyone, all of his buddies were like, like kind of like laughing like kids in class.
Christine Schiefer: Crammed in the back row. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like trying to poke fun at him. And this is like 1922, like now we hear scandalous shit all the time. But like back then, you know, that was like woo, hot stuff.
Em Schulz: But also like, but also what a weird way to like say to also like body shame in the same breath, where it's like I'm in love with you...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah...
Em Schulz: But also like I've seen better. But like I have you...
Christine Schiefer: No, no she said that about herself.
Em Schulz: Oh no. Well, that's even worse...
Christine Schiefer: It is...
Em Schulz: 'Cause she feels that way about herself.
Christine Schiefer: She... She said I... She basically said I know there are girls with more shapely bodies but I don't care...
Em Schulz: Oooh...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I have you. But also like... She was regarded as like a beautiful woman. So you know I don't know why she was being so self-deprecating but I guess it's just built into our... Our society.
Em Schulz: Oh that's... I mean it just lets you know that some things in history just never change. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's true. That's so true.
Em Schulz: What a shame.
Christine Schiefer: What a shame. And I do have a response from the pastor here. Okay. I am gonna read the pastor's and then I promise I'm done, [laughter] for now.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah for now. Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. The pastor's replies were equally as passionate. "Darling Wonder Heart," he had written, [laughter] I just want... "I just want to crush you for two hours." [laughter]
Em Schulz: What the fuck? [laughter] Okay. I say that about like cute puppies. Like I wanna like squeeze you you're so cute. But crush? Crush I know he meant it in a different way than I do with puppies. Like it's...
Christine Schiefer: I hope so. [laughter] Yeah. I mean, Jesus Christ. I thought that was a given but thank you for clarifying. Um.
Em Schulz: Crush is a crazy... That's a wild way to say this.
Christine Schiefer: It is. I want to crush you for two hours, like what a very specific... kink? I don't know, I don't know what it is but it's, it's such a time...
Em Schulz: It's that just a really aggressive way of saying I wanna like be on top of you.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so and I'm like... To me I'm like, oh that sounds nice 'cause I like a weighted blanket. Not in like a sexual way but just like...
Em Schulz: I'll let Blaise know... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Someone can just lay on me [laughter] and like suppress my nervous system. That would be delightful, you know what I mean? But I don't think that's what he meant. Umm...
Em Schulz: What was... What was umm... Maybe was it slang back then that we just don't know anymore?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe...
Em Schulz: And so it sounds crazier to us. Maybe that was normal then.
Christine Schiefer: I want to crush you 1920s. [laughter] It looks... It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search. Oh well. Cool.
Em Schulz: Oh no. Huh.
Christine Schiefer: Never mind. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. Cool.
Em Schulz: What a... What a... What an odd way to say that. [laughter] What an odd way to say that...
Christine Schiefer: It is, right? I was like what am I looking at right now? Like I just don't know. It feels like it shouldn't be said aloud. But I also am like but what does it mean? Like I don't know.
Em Schulz: Like. I know what it means but I still want... Uh I still want it to be changed. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I still don't like it. [laughter] He says, "I just want to crush you for two hours. I want to see you Friday night, our road, where we can let out unrestrained that universe of joy and happiness we call ours."
Em Schulz: Okay. The rest of it was fine but like crush was crazy...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so... That... That part was crazy. So he describe... Or he would sign his own letters as DTL which was short for Dein Treuer Liebhaber, thy true lover in German, 'cause she spoke German, and then Miss Mills...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's...
Christine Schiefer: I thought he was gonna DTF, and I was like woah, he is ahead of his time.
Em Schulz: Well DTL down, down to love. He was really DTC down to crush but you know whatever...
Christine Schiefer: Down to crush. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like when they write to like my dear Abby and it's like down to crush in Daytona. Like how...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well also...
Christine Schiefer: How do I find someone to crush for two hours?
Em Schulz: Well speaking of like DTF like it does feel very Jersey Shore because they call it smushing 'cause they are smashing because they smash into each other. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: Which is so gross [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So crushing.
Em Schulz: Crush and smash. I guess it's the same concept. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: They are a little too close for my liking.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so he would sign it thy true lover in German and Eleanor would sign hers Babykins. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Why? That was the grossest part of it all. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's the worst part. I saved the best for last. Umm they would call each other Babykins. So yeah. That's cool.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm... Anyway.
Em Schulz: I'm so happy that they're happy. That's all I can say about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway if that information were enough to identify these two it was pretty obvious because the killer had also played... Placed Edward's calling card like his business card at his feet so like propped up on one of his shoes to identify him which also feels...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Really gross and creepy.
Em Schulz: That's a... That's a bold move for the killer to be like... And by the way here's who it is, like giving...
Christine Schiefer: Here's his phone number... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like that's such a... In a, in a terrible way, but still a power move of being like, oh you're gonna wonder who the person is, let me, let me hand you a clue because...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, why don't I just skip ahead.
Em Schulz: I'm confident it doesn't matter.
Christine Schiefer: Since you probably won't figure it out.
Em Schulz: Like let me a head start trying to figure out who I am.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh... It is like a head start. Umm but unfortunately they didn't take advantage of the head start 'cause they were like never mind, this isn't our fucking problem. I'm gonna call a different police department. And so while the Somerset County police are on their way a crowd gathers and like this place turns into a fucking mob scene. So I don't know how back then... Like people at the time were so shocked they were saying in minutes like hundreds of people, thousands of people started just swarming this place. And I'm like in a day before social media like how did people get...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The word out so fast? Like it... And this was not...
Em Schulz: Truly.
Christine Schiefer: A big area, this was not a populated area. It was like a pretty small park, like kind of out of the way. And people just fucking came in droves to see these bodies.
Em Schulz: That's wild, it really is like how did, how did, like there had to have been a town crier, where he just Paul Revered his way through town, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, a little trumpet, or something, I mean, this place got fucking swarmed and it was a total circus. They were passing around evidence like in a circle, like amongst the audience like they were passing...
Em Schulz: Like a show and tell?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, they were like passing around the calling card. Somebody like picked up the, the blue velvet hat and her scarf, like they were like, like playing dressing up.
Em Schulz: Eugh.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's, it's really macabre, you know, it's, and every time I've like, listened to someone cover this story, they kind of say like, "I'm so shocked and I can't believe it was such a different time." And I'm like, honestly, if the police didn't cover up a crime scene, this probably still happened today. I don't have any doubt that people would like swarm a crime scene if they had the ability.
Em Schulz: Oh no... People would at least.
Christine Schiefer: And take stuff.
Em Schulz: Oh, people would certainly take stuff and they can then either try to sell it or like put it in their own weird collection. Or people would at, at the very least, take pictures.
Christine Schiefer: Like TikTok it.
Em Schulz: Somebody would Instagram live it. Yeah. I mean, but I, the picking up clothing that probably has blood all over it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's crazy. That's, that's...
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's too... It's really far. It's, and you know, I bet it's also that kind of mob mentality of like, well, everyone else got to touch it, so I guess I'll do it. You know, like it doesn't feel as uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like diffusion of responsibility or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. It doesn't feel as taboo if everyone else has already tried on the hat, you know? And so not only were they taking the stuff like off the bodies, they were also peeling, like bark and branches off this poor crab apple tree as souvenirs.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, to the point that the tree had no bark left. And eventually, I probably even put this in my notes later, but eventually somebody dug the entire tree up and just took it home.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what a bizarre, like what are you gonna do with that? I don't know. Sell it on eBay.
Em Schulz: That... But I mean, that's such a good point that you're making of like, and we said it earlier for something else, but like, some things just don't fucking change. Like it...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Like, you know, Zak Bagans in 1922...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: Would have been the one to dig up the tree.
Christine Schiefer: A 100%, yes. And make it like a side show. Yeah. And, and that's, it's basically what happened. Like, people were taking pieces of bark and just taking them home as souvenirs and showing them off, and people started selling dirt. So they, the tree got torn to pieces. This poor little tree had nothing to do with it. And so people started digging up dirt. But then again, some things never change because other people started just digging up random dirt from other places and saying, this is like dirt from the crime scene.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they weren't even selling actual dirt from the crime scene. They were selling soil, like from their garden and saying, I have a little bag of crime scene dirt for you. And people were fucking eating the shit up. Like buying it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Making a spectacle.
Em Schulz: I always, I mean, we're trying, I'm, I know you're like, not to get too high in the sky about this, so like, I don't wanna get all like, philosophical and deep, but I really thought social media was part of the problem of like how we got to who we are.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Mh-hmm.
Em Schulz: But it's nice to know that even in a world without any technology, we are still trash bags. Like it still happened.
Christine Schiefer: Great point. Like people are still scamming each other, like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No, a 100%. It's almost like social media just kind of propagated it or like allowed it to be easier for people. But it seems like people were always this way. Umm, apparently...
Em Schulz: And like with the morbid curiosity and all that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I mean, we've talked about like places where like barns that were just torn apart plank by plank.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: By people who were just like curious onlookers and wanted a piece of the crime scene. And so, I mean, it's just things, some things never change. So, of course, this compromises the whole scene. I mean, there are literally people there like, okay, this reminds me of your mammoth cave story. There are people there selling balloons and popcorn. I mean, there's two dead people under this tree...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they're selling fucking popcorn and hot dogs. It's like a circus, like a true spectacle circus. Umm, so police show up and like, all this has already been going on because it's too late. Like, the, the, the crowds have descended. And, umm, even though the scene was completely compromised, it didn't really matter because police barely collected any evidence anyway. They didn't even photograph the bodies. And I actually do have a photograph for you. Umm, it's from far away, so you can't really see anything that dark, but, or like that specific or, or grotesque. But here's just a picture that someone else took of the bodies.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I assume this is like, they've been moved around a little bit, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh definitely. They've been moved, he's not wearing his hat.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause the hat on his head anymore. Yeah. Their bodies are...
Em Schulz: And like farther apart.
Em Schulz: Far away from each other. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So like, this has been totally compromised, but that's how long these bodies were there, like long enough for people to take photos of them in a completely different position than they were.
Em Schulz: Which is wild that like, like I'm, I'm not saying like, oh, I get it. Like take a piece of bark from the experience. Like I, I understand that that on its own is fucked up, but like, there's like tiers to how fucked up I can get. And I feel like seeing bodies with gunshot wounds to the head and just dragging them around just to put them in different poses. Like snow angels, like that's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they're like that. Yeah. That you'd think that would be like too human. Like too...
Em Schulz: Inhuman.
Christine Schiefer: Real.
Em Schulz: Humane, inhumane, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like too, yeah. Too close to home. Like, like too far to be touching a dead person.
Em Schulz: If I saw, if I saw a dead body, no way would I move it. Especially just to repose it. Like what the hell?
Christine Schiefer: Especially with like a crowd of onlookers. I mean, it just feels so, so gross. Umm, so...
Em Schulz: It feels really disrespectful to like their...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Like if they, if they knew that after they died, no one was like standing next to them crying. Everyone was just like posing with them. Like that's...
Christine Schiefer: Trying their hats on. Like, ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's like a photo booth. Like it's really a macabre. So both victims were quickly buried without like being properly analyzed or autopsied and police had collected almost no evidence from the scene whatsoever. So they decided to start questioning suspects instead. So of course first suspects are the spouses Jim and Francis, but as soon as police question them, they both insist, they have no idea about any affair. They do not believe that their partners were, uh, unfaithful to them. They claim they have no idea and they swear up and down that they're happy, healthy, their marriages are fine. Umm, Jim said Edward was one of his closest friends. Francis said she and Eleanor were very close and she reportedly paid for Eleanor's casket and burial. Like, they immediately claim like no part in this. So police...
Em Schulz: I mean, I guess technically even the love letters could have just been written by a random person to like make a point, you know.
Christine Schiefer: To like show. Yeah, that's true. And they were like, what do we write? Say you wanna crush, crush her and, and call her Babykins.
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like okay, I guess that's effective.
Christine Schiefer: Um. So police questioned both of them at length about the affair, and they apparently doubled down on their denial. And I was listening to, umm, I think it was True Crime All The Time. Uh, Unsolved cover this, and they talked about. And so I couldn't find the source anywhere, which is why I'm referencing the actual episode I listened to. But they were saying that the, that the, the spouse of Eleanor, Jim, tried to claim that the love letters were from Eleanor to her kids.
Em Schulz: No. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know [laughter] I'm like, umm...
Em Schulz: A, a confirmed no from me only, but...
Christine Schiefer: That's a big old no. Yeah, no, that's a big old no from all of us.
Em Schulz: I... What was the like, God wants... God wants us to touch each other or something? Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh. Yeah. I mean it, like what?
Em Schulz: So it's a no.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's a no, it's a no. [laughter] That's like all I can say. I think we all hopefully agree on that. Umm, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Please, if you don't, you need to look within immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So police tried to determine where the two spouses were on the night of, uh, or at least before the bodies were found, because from what they could tell, it had been like two days since the two of them had been killed. So that night, Francis had been spotted leaving the church in the middle of the night, and when they asked why she was leaving the church in the middle of the night, she told police she had gone there looking for Edward when she realized he never came to bed that night.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Jim had not been seen at the church by anyone, but he also told police he had gone to the church in the middle of the night as well, looking for Eleanor when she didn't come home. So apparently both of them went to the church. Neither of them saw each other. So they either just, either they're lying, one of them's lying, or they just happen to miss each other.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently Jim said he turned the lights on at the church and Francis said, nope, there were no lights on. It was all dark. So we don't know if this is a lie or if it's just like really convenient timing. Umm, but either way, both of them claimed to go to the church to look for their spouse. Apparently, Eleanor and Edward were planning to meet up that night for their tryst, and they had both been spotted by passersby headed toward Philip's farm, quote, "in a dreadful hurry."
Em Schulz: Hmm, hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, mysterious. Several people near the farm. This is, uh, like where the lover's lane is reported hearing gunshots and a woman scream between 9:00 PM and midnight. Based on those accounts, along with the amount of blood at the scene, investigators determined that Eleanor and Edward were killed where they were found, not moved there, postmortem.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That was like the only determination police made correctly because, umm, the crime scene had been horribly contaminated. They hadn't done a detailed autopsy, like they really just missed out on a lot of clues...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they ended up having to exhume the bodies to determine the cause of death. Like they hadn't even determined cause of death. And this is a murder.
Em Schulz: What? Oh, my. There's...
Christine Schiefer: They just buried them... Like...
Em Schulz: Who was in charge of training these police officers?
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea. But the first one said, we don't wanna do it. [laughter] So they called the next one. So it already started off rough, you know? Like journalists got there before police did, like that's how bad this was, so...
Em Schulz: Right. Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: They did exhume the bodies and it turns out Eleanor had been shot three times in the head, and Edward had only been shot once. Now this is where it gets pretty graphic. Eleanor had also been nearly decapitated postmortem, which was extremely intimate and violent and, yikes, her tongue and larynx had been removed.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, what does that mean symbolically? There's something there, isn't there?
Christine Schiefer: So... the thing most people speculate is that because she was a singer in the choir and she was known for her beautiful voice.
Em Schulz: Oh, mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The tongue and the larynx were symbolic in that way.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Okay. That makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Just really gruesome. And so to think like, it definitely, like I think, uh, uh, FBI... What do they call it? A one of the, uh, oh my god, Christine, you watch so much Criminal Minds. What are they called? [laughter] Where they... [laughter] What is wrong with me? Umm, criminal profilers. I feel like they'd have a field day with this because it's like, so obviously symbolic, at least to me. And, uh, she was so brutally attacked and he was just shot once in the head and left alone.
Em Schulz: I feel like, I feel like then it was the wife, the, the his wife.
Christine Schiefer: That, that seems to be most people's like, inclination based on the anger toward the woman.
Em Schulz: Because I... Even though like if someone's cheating on you, you should be mad at the person cheating on you, not the other person. A lot of people get angry at the other person instead. And I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: It's that displaced blame. Yes, yes, yes.
Em Schulz: And I feel like she would.
Christine Schiefer: For like home-wrecker type comments and that kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so, and, and the anger about her singing like that could really play into it. So this is all stuff they did not know because they buried them...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then had to exhume them and then found out that her tongue was gone. Like they didn't even do a fucking autopsy at all. So of course, it's like unbelievable that none of this was notated at the time of the murder. Umm, the media is all over this, and police are so far behind that like they are not anywhere near an arrest. Now, as you mentioned earlier, the 1920s, uh, like this is such a time of upheaval and it would like continue to be umm, because for years, papers and the radio had covered like World War I, the 1918 flu epidemic,...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And people were just exhausted. And now it's the 1920s, umm, it's the roaring '20s. People are looking for thrills, people are looking for distractions. And so these fancy little things called tabloids were introduced to the populace.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they first became popular in the UK around the turn of the century. And a tabloid basically covered social gossip, scandals and crime. And one popular tabloid, proudly advertised, quote, "90% entertainment, 10% information." So... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Honestly, at least they were honest about it.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. Like at least they're self-aware. You know, it's like we say we're not reporters, we're entertainers 'cause we don't want the, we don't want the respons... Like not the responsibility.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's the wrong way to put it. But like, I don't want anyone to feel like, I think I'm like fucking New York Times reporter or something. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There's a certain point where it's like entertainment rather than real reporting and so... This is a huge story for the tabloids to just fucking run with. Uh, they used huge photos instead of excess text, which traditional reporters of course, found like cheap journalism to put photos in. Umm, they were smaller, they were easily like taken around town to read and they were cheap and they were much more available to the working class for that reason. And they also made room for more women reporters, uh, because there was just more room, I guess, for women to step in and become journalists at a tabloid than a traditional newspaper. Uh, and several women actually became highly paid and well-trusted like high-profile reporters in the tabloids, which is kind of cool.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like that would be a cool...
Em Schulz: I guess they had just...
Christine Schiefer: Documentary.
Em Schulz: Well, they're, they're women so they have to... They only know how to gossip. So I guess...
Christine Schiefer: The gossip. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They've to start, start at the low rung and then eventually they trust what you're saying and then you become a real reporter.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that's probably how it went, umm, so you know, you gotta take what you can, I guess. So people, of course, became obsessed with tabloid media and the salacious topics that they covered. And, you know, a lot of traditional reporters called this low brow journalism. But a tabloid editor of the time said that they represented America's transition into a new era because, quote, "tabloids were just as inevitable as jazz. They are feared because they are jolting the pillars of conservatism." Ooh la la.
Em Schulz: Hmm, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So people were into it and people especially were drawn to stories involving sex, money and murder. And it was said that the best story involved all three. So ding, ding, ding. Here it is on the silver platter for the tabloids.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So it was no surprise that this case became a media frenzy. Umm, this was like next level, there's an heiress involved, uh, like two people from totally different social classes. Umm, an affair, ya know, romance, intrigue the whole nine yards. Umm, interestingly too, Charlotte, Eleanor's daughter, who was a teenager at the time, made the story even more popular because she was a flapper.
Em Schulz: Oh! Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And so because she was like kind of embodying this like new age feminist movement, she became a character in the story as well. And so it added even more intrigue and drama to the whole thing.
Em Schulz: Wow. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was quite a tale. So Charlotte was young, she was pretty. She was ambitious. She was like this picture of like the new era of the '20s. And weirdly enough, Francis, umm, the Johnson and Johnson heiress, the wife...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, she sent a letter to Charlotte. So Edwards wife, now widow, sent a letter to Eleanor's daughter Charlotte, saying, "Don't worry, you'll be looked after."
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that sketchy?
Em Schulz: I mean, now I'm starting to think it's her this whole time, for sure.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm thinking. I mean...
Em Schulz: I think, it felt... It felt... She felt like she needed like a contingency plan or something.
Christine Schiefer: Doesn't it almost feel like she's like there's some guilt or something there, like some responsibility, but may I mean, maybe it was just a responsibility of like, you come from a poor family, and I'm really wealthy. I don't know. I don't know, or maybe she was just close to the family. I'm not sure, but apparently, even though she sent this letter to Charlotte saying she would be looked after, Charlotte did not like Francis, so.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: She felt Francis was too old school, too conservative, too Victorian. She didn't like flappers, umm and Charlotte actually suspected that Francis was involved in her mother's murder and she...
Em Schulz: Okay, well, that does it for me.
Christine Schiefer: Right, and she spoke out publicly about it. So talk about like adding more fuel to the fire. Now, this young woman is saying, "I think Francis had something to do with my mother's death."
Em Schulz: Can you imagine like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my lord.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine if she, let's say Francis wasn't responsible and she was just trying to do like a nice thing, and like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Poor Franc... I know. I totally agree.
Em Schulz: And the response... And the response is like publicly being called out as like, "I think you're the murderer of my mother." And like she was just trying to do a nice thing.
Christine Schiefer: Literally, thanks a lot for trying to support me.
Em Schulz: Yeah... No, I,...
Christine Schiefer: You murdering bitch.
Em Schulz: I... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like Jesus. She can't...
Em Schulz: Nope.
Christine Schiefer: If she's innocent, she can't catch a fucking break this woman. She's called homely, she's called like ugly and like only someone would marry her for money.
Em Schulz: Her husband is cheating on her.
Christine Schiefer: Now she's a fucking... Yeah, now her husband is cheating on her. Now she's a murderer, I mean, Lord.
Em Schulz: God. All in men.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but I do think if Charlotte has a gut feeling, I could ride that gut feeling. It does sound like Francis is trying to tie up loose ends or something that...
Christine Schiefer: It's a little weird.
Em Schulz: She would have caused, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I agree, and like none of it is, you know, real hardcore evidence. But it's definitely intriguing and I think that's probably why most people are kind of on our side with this. Like that's what most people...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Tend to believe. So when she realized, when Charlotte realized, that local police are basically fumbling her mother's case, I think that's like understatement of the century, but whatever. Uh, she wrote a letter to the New Jersey governor and she said she was worried that justice would fail her family because they didn't have money for legal funds. And when she, when he didn't respond to her letter, she went to his office herself to ask...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: For a meeting. I just picture her in a flappers dress. I highly doubt that's what she was wearing.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: But I'm like, What a sight. She like storms in and asks to see the governor. And he's apparently not in at the moment so...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: When he found out that she had come looking for him, he actually publicly addressed her in a letter that was published in the newspapers....
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Promising to put state investigators on the case. He said she didn't need to worry about money because he would personally see to the case with state resources.
Em Schulz: I love how petty these people are. Where it's like, I won't look you in the eye, but I will make the paper tell you and everybody...
Christine Schiefer: And you can find about...
Em Schulz: My thoughts.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you can find out about it in the newspaper. It's like, "Oh, I don't have time for a meeting."
Em Schulz: It's like, "I don't like you. And you better know about that on page six."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No, but he's saying he is going to fund this, he is going to put his own money, like state money toward, toward solving it.
Em Schulz: Okay. I don't know if that was like a dismissive way of being like, it'll be, it'll get handled.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see... Instead of like actually, I think yeah, I think he basically was put on the spot 'cause she's like talking to all the papers and tabloids and she's like, I want to see him. And he didn't even respond to my letter. And so, he's like, no, look, everyone.
Em Schulz: Gotcha. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I care about this case. That... That's my understanding of it. Uh, which it...
Em Schulz: Oh, what a good way, though, if that, if that was her tactic of like embarrass him until it gets handled.
Christine Schiefer: Right! Just fucking pressure him by showing up at his office and then talking about it in the tabloids. Yeah, it fucking worked too. 'Cause this guy's saying he's gonna put state money toward it and he's personally he's gonna see to it that this thing gets solved. So of course, now the public is even more fired up because the governor of New Jersey is like personally invested in this case. And an ambitious teenager has like convinced the governor to get involved. And so this is like such a tumultuous and progressive almost situation. And there's all this pressure from the media, of course, and now the governor. And so, police in both Somerset and Middlesex County are like scrambling to make an arrest. And they know it does not look good in the papers. So interestingly enough, suspicion soon turned to Francis' brothers.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So one of her brothers was a skilled marksman who worked for arms dealers, but he seemed to have a solid alibi. Her other brother, William, became a suspect because police thought he was, unusual. Uh...
Em Schulz: Ohh.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty much all they had to go on. Umm, his name was William. He was called Willie by locals. He was a friendly man who hung out in the Hungarian immigrant neighborhoods. He was known to sit on like stoops and chat with people all day. Umm, he would even he would even help. Keys was also obviously from the same Johnson and Johnson Fortune. So, he was known to help people out with money sometimes, sending gifts to neighborhood kids. Umm, he had a lot of trouble holding a job, so he would spend most of his days hanging out at the local fire station. And like he would, he was actually called by the firefighters, a [chuckle] an honorary member of the firefighters. Umm, he obviously was not allowed to actually fight fires, but he was allowed to dress up in the firefighter uniforms and like try on the helmets.
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: And many people describe him as child-like, but he was actually extremely intelligent and could like memorize entire books of facts and like share them with people.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So, in retrospect, it's, it's believed he was autistic in a time before...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: That was a diagnosis. And so, you know, looking back, people just called him like weird, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like he's not uneducated or unintelligent. It's just he maybe doesn't have the same social skills, or he has different skills...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Than other people, you know? So, looking back, that's that's why police were like, "This guy's weird, let's fucking hone-in on him. And... "
Em Schulz: That it was great, great, great.
Christine Schiefer: Great, great. Yeah. So, the problem was William actually did own a revolver that matched the bullet wounds.
Em Schulz: Oh. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So they, they. Yeah. So they take that gun and they're like, "Well, we think we have a clue here." Turns out the gun had actually been, like, shaved down and permanently disabled for William's safety, like he owned this gun.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: But his family had like disabled it so that he wouldn't accidentally hurt himself or harm someone else. So this gun didn't even work.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So, like, it couldn't be him. Strangely, his fingerprint was also on the calling card that was on the, on the shoe of William.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Of Edward I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But it had also been like handed around this huge group of people.
Em Schulz: So many fingerprints.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And he had actually spent a lot of time with Edward as his brother-in-law. So, like, it it's not that weird. He probably just had picked it up at some point and looked at it.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but still, because, you know, he was vulnerable. Police picked William, William up one night randomly and interrogated him for hours without a lawyer present.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And they didn't even notify his family. And luckily for William, he really didn't say anything that incriminated him. And so they eventually had to release him. And when Francis, his sister, found out about this, she was pissed, pissed.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: She was outraged that her brother had been interrogated without any notice, without any representation. And now the tabloids jump on that and they're like, "Wow, not only do the police have zero leads, but they take this poor guy who is, you know, loved, beloved in our neighborhood and like fucking treat him like like a criminal."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so people are now believing like, this investigation is going nowhere. Police are getting nowhere, and, uh, there's just no faith in the police force whatsoever. So police circle all the way back to Pearl and Ray, the 15 and 23-year-olds who were mushroom hunting wink, uh, at lovers lane.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Allegedly. And they had discovered the bodies. And so, police were like, let's get back to them and and question them again. So Edward had actually been discovered without his gold watch that he always wore and without any cash, which he always had on him. And so, police were like, well, maybe Pearl and Ray tried to rob Edward, panicked and killed them. But also...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: My thought is like there was a whole crowd trying on their clothes, like someone probably took his fucking watch and walked away with it.
Em Schulz: Right, right. Great point.
Christine Schiefer: You know, like, as much as I'm like, Oh, that's weird that he didn't have cash on him. Like, well, yeah, but people were trying on her brown scarf that covered up her fucking missing larynx like.
Em Schulz: I mean anyone could... Someone could have even like just openly said, "I'm taking his watch. He doesn't need it anymore."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I would... My first instinct when I read that was like, someone took it. Someone has it. I bet you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just some looky-loo and then felt too... I don't know. It's probably in somebody's like safe deposit box somewhere and they don't even realize.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so allegedly both had been missing before the crowds arrived at the scene. But again, they didn't take any photos. They didn't write anything down. So we don't even really know that.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so still police interrogated Pearl, Ray and two of their friends that they had been hanging out with that night, 21 year old Clifford Hayes and 15 year old Leon Kaufman. After the first interrogation police didn't have much to go on because according to their story the three men had seen Pearl with her no good father who appeared to be drunk. And Pearl was crying that night. And Ray said he planned to fight Pearl's dad. Now remember, Ray and Pearl are in a kind of scandalous relationship as...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: He is significantly older than her. So it was rumored that Pearl's dad was not only violent, uh, and abusive, but actually sexually assaulted her. And so they see Pearl crying. They appeared her, they appeared to see her no good father somehow abusing her. And Ray says, "I'm gonna fight Pearl's dad." And Clifford revealed that he had a pistol with him and that they could use that pistol to fight Pearl's dad if, if they needed it to protect themselves. So Ray, Clifford and Leon started following Pearl and her dad, but they apparently lost them in the dark at some point, and it was late. So Leon, who's 15, was like, I gotta go home and left the other two...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: 23 year olds, or 21 and 23 year olds to their own devices. And they are still on a mission to find Pearl's dad. So they see.
Em Schulz: Okay, wow.
Christine Schiefer: A couple under a crab apple tree in the dark, and they think it is Pearl and her dad. So they sneak up on them without warning, Clifford takes out his pistol and shoots both of them.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Ray yells, "my God, you have made an awful mistake." And both men fled the scene immediately. So this is what they tell police. They even sign a confession confirming the story, and police announce they're arresting Clifford.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The problem with the story, [laughter] is that...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The confession was extracted after police had kept Ray and Clifford awake for 24 hours in separate rooms.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And for the full 24 hours, detectives aggressively questioned both men and basically forced a confession out of them. It's like, it's just a coerced confession.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: There's there's no reality to it. So even as Clifford was being removed from questioning for his arrest, his lawyer shared a statement saying, do you, and this is, uh, on Clifford's behalf. So Clifford said, "Do you think I'd be fool enough to stay around here for three weeks if I had committed this crime? I am innocent. And they know it. And so does everyone in New Brunswick." Now, luckily for Clifford, he was a very well-liked and well-known person. He had been honorably discharged from the Navy and had served in the war. He was known to be very kind and loving. And so people immediately were like, "you're trying to tell us. He just randomly murdered these two people and shot them point blank. It doesn't make sense." So again, the police are failing [laughter] like in the eyes of the public.
Em Schulz: At this point. Like, I get why that original cop was like, I don't want this. Like, I'm just getting I...
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: I'm getting fed up.
Christine Schiefer: If I'd known what mess this would be, I'm getting, I know [laughter]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So when this comes out, even Charlotte, Jim and Francis. So the two spouses, the two a widow, widower, and then the daughter all spoke out saying, "we don't believe Clifford or Ray had anything to do with their deaths." And they said, investigators are just fishing, and that's all this is.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So even one of Edward's sisters said, "we are all mystified by the arrest of this boy. I simply cannot understand it. None of us can." So like, it's just a mess. Meanwhile, Pearl comes forward to defend Clifford. She says her boyfriend Ray had once threatened her with a knife. So if anyone had murder in them, it was Ray, not Clifford. [laughter] and, and...
Em Schulz: Okay. It's like, listen.
Christine Schiefer: And what's more...
Em Schulz: I know them better. Just trust me on this one.
Christine Schiefer: Just trust my, it's my boyfriend, not the other one. It's like, okay.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: But what's more is Clifford only confessed to shooting the couple. He didn't know about the cutthroat. He didn't know about that 'cause like he...
Em Schulz: How would he?
Christine Schiefer: He had hadn't, how would he? And so that part just was not even taken into account. So basically it was not them. Anyway, in the end, there was so much public outrage that police realized they had like really fucked up, uh, by arresting Clifford. And so they interview Ray one more time, and Ray's like, yeah, "I made that whole story up and I feel terrible."
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So he gets two years in prison.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: For perjury.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, you fucking like forced him to confess to whatever. Okay. So he basically gets prison time, two years. Uh, and meanwhile police release Clifford and he arrives home to hundreds of locals waiting to welcome him. Like.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You're... Thank God you're free. We knew you were innocent.
Em Schulz: You're free.
Christine Schiefer: Yay. So now the murder investigation is back to square one. I argue it never left square one, but whatever.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Good point.
Christine Schiefer: And this is when I think my favorite witness of all time steps forward, her name is Jane Gibson, otherwise known as "The Pig Woman".
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's known, she's known as "The Pig Woman" because she raised hogs near.
Em Schulz: Oh, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: I know near De Russey Lane, where they were found. She said that on night at 9:00 PM on the night of the murder, her dog started barking and she suspected someone was stealing her crops. So she got on her mule, as you do, and rode down the lane. She saw four figures in the dark under the crab apple tree. She heard a woman scream, don't three times, then there were gunshots, and another woman cried. "Oh, Henry," she claimed the pair at the scene was Francis Hall and her cousin, Henry Carpenter.
Em Schulz: Mmm!
Christine Schiefer: Jane said she returned a few hours later looking for a shoe that she had lost in the commotion. I guess it fell off her mule. I don't know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And when she found, when she was looking for the shoe, she saw Francis Hall sobbing over her husband's dead body. So finally prosecution is like, "Oh, we finally have something to pin this on."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So the grand jury convenes to decide whether or not to indict Henry, the cousin, along with three anonymous suspects. And after several days of testimony, Jane Gibson, their like star witness, starts making people a little skeptical because...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: While she was insisting she was telling the truth, when she was asked to look at Henry and be sure that that was who she saw, she see, she said, "I feel that he is."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so people were like, okay, well you obviously don't seem very convinced. And she said, well, it was really dark, so already like not a good start. And then, oh, it gets worse. Because her credibility was also called into question when several neighbors said she was the sort of woman who would make something like this up for attention.
Em Schulz: Oh my just like, God.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking, fucking rude.
Em Schulz: Wow. I wonder if she, oh, I feel like I, would, I'd lose sleep for the rest of my life if I heard that that was my reputation and I was just learning it in this really intense moment. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: In this horrible moment. And you're like, that's what they've thought about me this whole time. And then the newspaper's like, oh yeah, "The Pig Woman". I'd be like, are you serious right now? [laughter] Like, hello, can I not get any respect?
Em Schulz: Wow! I would so like name a woman in this story who has had a good time in this story.
Christine Schiefer: No, exactly. Not...
Em Schulz: Not a one.
Christine Schiefer: One of them. Maybe the flapper maybe, but her mom's dead.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So maybe not. I don't know. It's all bad. So initially the press had been really kind to Jane as, like, they described her as a sturdy witness [laughter] and comparing her to the pioneer women of old.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: But like really quickly, they turned on her and started digging into her marriage history 'cause she had been married twice, God forbid. Uh, they started attacking her character. And during her testimony, one tabloid described her as the following. Are you ready?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Quote, "erratic, obese, disheveled and suffering from a mortal organic disease."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Where did they come up with this shit?
Em Schulz: That's so, so fucking brutal. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Where do they come up, up with this shit? Like, how do they come up with something so fucking rude.
Em Schulz: Like, how dare you?
Christine Schiefer: Like, it's, it's.
Em Schulz: I like how you started it with, they were really, they were really nice at first. All they did was call her pig woman. But you know, by the end. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They were like, she's a pioneer pig woman.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Also, like Amy Schumer had a special like forever ago where she was talking about how like she, uh, she got hit on by a guy and he was like, I like you 'cause you're sturdy. And she was like, what the fuck does that mean? [laughter] So when you said they called her sturdy, I was like, oh my God And a pig woman.
Christine Schiefer: I know it's not... Yeah. You know, that they were talking about her appearance and, and I remember in high school, a kid said I was... I heard from a friend that this other kid said I was, I would be cute, but I'm too boxy to be cute. And it's literally like lived in my brain, rent free from the age I, of 15 until now. Umm.
Em Schulz: My bully called me Big Bird. And I still think about it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. That's so rude.
Em Schulz: And I found out because I was reading her emails...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: That she was talking about, about me to somebody, so she didn't even say, she didn't even say it to my face.
Christine Schiefer: That isn't... That's even worse. That's even worse to find out it's behind your back 'cause then it's like.
Em Schulz: It was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they're not even just trying to be funny. Like they're, they mean that insult.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: It was a, it was an email, it was a subject line that said, in her inbox it said Em, Em Schulz. And so I was like, obviously I'm gonna click that.
Christine Schiefer: How stupid can you be? Yeah, obviously.
Em Schulz: And it was, it was her and her little minion. They were just talking about me the whole time. And I still think about the Big Bird comment, [laughter] like wow it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's really rude.
Em Schulz: Literally been half my life ago and I still thinking about it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know me too. Literally half my life ago, someone called me boxy and I'm like, they said I would be attractive if I weren't so boxy. And I'm like, what does it mean?
Em Schulz: Christine let me speak for all of the people who are like so goddamn thirsty for you that listen to the show.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, please... Okay.
Em Schulz: You are so smoking hot.
Christine Schiefer: Tarantula legs [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. You know what? Actually I take it a fucking back. Goodbye. You're ugly and boxy.
Christine Schiefer: No you know just wait [laughter] That's not what I meant. I meant it in the best way that people love how tall you are. [laughter] Oh, and that you smell good.
Em Schulz: Oh, I didn't get that when you called me tarantula legs.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You called yourself tarantula legs to be fair, I'm just reiterating. I thought this was building you up, but apparently, umm, it's just hitting a nerve. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Christine, because nobody else, uh, is able to say it. I'll just speak for them. You were so smoking hot and, uh, you are...
Christine Schiefer: That's so kind.
Em Schulz: And, uh, not boxy. And even if you were, you'd still be smoking hot. So.
Christine Schiefer: Don't, don't tell S-...
Em Schulz: Who?
Christine Schiefer: Sam Fleming I made that name up. Uh.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Who called me that when I was 15.
Em Schulz: That's interesting. You wanna still protect their identity? I'm... I shout my bullies name everywhere. [laughter] So.
Em Schulz: One time I did it on stage. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I... Oh, I remember that. I feel like he doesn't even know he ever said that. Like it was so long ago. And he probably just said in passing. And then someone told me, and like, it burned into my mind. And I think probably he doesn't even know who I am. You know what I mean? Like.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's one of those where.
Em Schulz: I'm, my bully knows who I'm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sure of that. Yeah. Well, you, they had a whole email thread about you. So.
Em Schulz: Well, also they were my bully from, from first grade to 12th grade. She was just terrible.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord.
Em Schulz: But also, like, you know what? If you're gonna be a bully, be prepared that there is the slim chance that the person you're bullying one day is gonna grow up to have a microphone in their face for work. And you might get mentioned.
Christine Schiefer: Genuinely. Genuinely.
Em Schulz: So you wanted to act like that for 12 years. Oh, well, Chelsea.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Literally, if being nice [laughter], literally, if being nice is not gonna convince you, then just picture your name splashed across a podcast. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And then see what happens.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Sorry, I grew up and now have an audience and you treated me like crap for 12 years.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Shape up.
Em Schulz: So I guess I'm gonna talk about it. Whoops.
Christine Schiefer: Shape up. I'm scared to say her name.
Em Schulz: I'm sure maybe... I, I I like to, I like to think she's maybe nice now? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe she's still up to her old tricks.
Christine Schiefer: God, who would know?
Em Schulz: Who would know?
Christine Schiefer: I wanna find out. We'll talk about this later.
Em Schulz: I'm sure you'll, you'll, find out way too much for no reason.
Christine Schiefer: I'll do some digging.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I'll send you an email later called just Chelsea. Like, just the how, how she did that to you with your name. [laughter] I'll be like, and I'll hope she finds it someday. [laughter] umm, anyway, [laughter], so this just gets weirder because, so they're saying all these horrible fucking things in the tabloids about her. And the problem is she actually was really sick. Like she was on her deathbed at this point. The pig lady AKA Jane. Mm-hmm. And they wheeled her in on a stretcher to, to testify. I have a picture.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Hold on.
Em Schulz: Also can I ask why on a stretcher, was she injured? I feel like you just...
Christine Schiefer: I said she was on her death, I said she was on her deathbed. She was very ill.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And on her death bed...
Em Schulz: Okay. [chuckle] That oughta do it.
Christine Schiefer: She was very ill and on her deathbed so they wheeled her in on a stretcher, here's a picture.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow, okay. Very...
Christine Schiefer: Like what the fuck! It's like a...
Em Schulz: Wow!
Christine Schiefer: Creepy old timey hospital bed, and it's just a bunch of like men gathered around her.
Em Schulz: Yeah it's really...
Christine Schiefer: While she's like really flat.
Em Schulz: It's really jarring. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: Is she... Like she's not... Is she even considered fit to talk, to testify or anything?
Christine Schiefer: Well, good question, because apparently, now that she had this like supposed disability, people were like, "How do we trust her?" You know, like she's, she's not sturdy.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: She's weak and she can't testify, so now it's like she... I sent you another uh... I sent you like an actual Daily News.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Article. Do you wanna read the headline for everyone? [laughter] I mean, come on.
Em Schulz: Okay, I'm only laughing because this is just so fucking terrible.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible.
Em Schulz: "Pig Woman Identifies Four." Like... It's like.
Christine Schiefer: Like what the F.
Em Schulz: Like, why can't we just say her name, but also like, I mean, I get that this was literally the... Like year tabloids were created and there was just no rule or rhyme or reason.
Christine Schiefer: It's like...
Em Schulz: It feels like it was a lawless land, those tabloids.
Christine Schiefer: Yes!
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: They've just fucking ran with it.
Em Schulz: And I'm sure it was... I'm, I'm obviously pig woman is more catchy than anything else, that would be respectful, I get that, but like wow. In today's world, I just can't imagine anyone calling somebody that.
Christine Schiefer: It's hard. It's horrible. And what's even weirder, so people are already questioning her like testimony now because they're saying, How do we trust her? What's even wilder is her own mother was sitting in the court room the entire time she testified screaming. She's a liar, a liar, a liar. The whole time her daughter was testifying.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Wow!
Christine Schiefer: Like her own mother. It doesn't... I don't know why. I don't know what it means, but at this point, her testimony is shot, nobody believes her, so after five days, the grand jury is like, we can't indite these people, like, how are we... There's not enough evidence and we don't trust her testimony. So Henry and the others walked free, Francis ended up filing a defamation lawsuit against the city, and I'm pretty sure against the Daily News or against one of these tabloids. And that defamation lawsuit was settled out of court. Uh, Jim's only comment was that it was a shame justice wasn't served. But basically the story remained super popular for years, every now and then a reporter or PI would like revisit it and it would spark more public interest and people just hope that one day I would get solved.
Christine Schiefer: But it really wasn't until a decade later, actually, you kind of did ask this question in the beginning, umm, so about a decade later, the Lindbergh baby kidnapping became a huge story, and that's kind of when this story like lost...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: The last of its popularity in, in the public eye.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So that sort of replaced it as like the new big true crime story, and so it basically just fell out of the public spotlight. And for what it's worth, the case today is credited as America's first true crime story because...
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: It, no story in US history had reached so, such a wide audience like no, true crime story, and it basically launched the popularity of tabloid media, which is why I assume it's sometimes called similar to the OJ Simpson case, like just...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Media frenzy you know. So, although most people treated it like, unfortunately, exciting gossip, people like Charlotte desperately wanted justice for you know, her mother and she hoped eventually to hear a death bed confession maybe from Francis or from somebody else. But the case remains unsolved today and everyone involved in the case is dead, uh so it's unlikely that we'll ever know who killed these two.
Em Schulz: Wow!
Christine Schiefer: And that's the story.
Em Schulz: And also like... It also is like just another PSA for like police training needs to be taken so much more seriously, they literally just... They found out after they exhumed the bodies that they had been shot three times like what! Like...
Christine Schiefer: What!
Em Schulz: It's just another, umm, another reminder that you know people that are addressed as authori... Authorities doesn't mean that they are the authority on something and...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: You really need to get it together.
Christine Schiefer: That... Yeah, that's... That's so true. And um one like, fact I forgot to mention, which probably not relevant, but Eleanor's bullet wounds also showed, umm, signs of gunshot residue, which means they were really, really close up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And uh Edwards didn't. So it's... It's almost like she just got such a more brutal demise...
Em Schulz: And I wonder...
Christine Schiefer: Or treatment.
Em Schulz: And I wonder if it was because it was more personal for whoever killed them...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: To hurt her, or if it was just because she was like a woman or like...
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's hard... It's, it's like impossible to say, but it, it feels gut instinct, it feels like it was personal, especially...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: With the throat and the tongue, and she was known as being this beautiful singer. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But yeah. It's pretty fucked up.
Em Schulz: I don't know who it was, but I can't imagine it being anyone other than one of their spouses.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: It just doesn't... Like doesn't make sense.
Christine Schiefer: I mean like the fact that the place was so bungled just makes me think like, well, probably they just didn't catch the right person like...
Em Schulz: I mean, you know... You know what the like... The most like damning piece of evidence for me is that it has to be one of the two spouses, is that like everyone seems to have ignored... After your initial telling of it is like all those love letters like they had to be found...
Christine Schiefer: The love letters!
Em Schulz: They had to be found, the only reason they were ripped up around them was because clearly found them, which means it was in one of their homes, which means they had access to their home. Like.
Christine Schiefer: Or they were in the church where the two were... Where.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: You know they kept them Maybe at the church, 'cause they had both sides.
Em Schulz: But I feel...
Christine Schiefer: They had letters from Edward and from her, so maybe they were keeping them somewhere.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Interesting. Yeah. But I mean, that, that feels like, I mean, hello. The ripping up of two love letters, the that...
Christine Schiefer: Tearing up the love letters, come on.
Em Schulz: That's, that's not even symbolic. That is directly...
Christine Schiefer: It's like a classic trope.
Em Schulz: Like someone was mad because of your love letters. Nobody other than spouses would give a shit as much as...
Christine Schiefer: Who else? Besides like a kid, maybe a child, but I don't think, or like, I mean the, the family member, but like the, the son was 12. I mean...
Em Schulz: But the like, I mean like the love letters is like, that's not even a clue to me like that it's like, I don't know what the right word is, but that I don't, it's not a hunch, it's that it's not even a hunch territory anymore but like if you're...
Christine Schiefer: It's literally right in front of your face. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Murdered with a bunch of your own ripped up love letters back and forth with each other. The only person who would be that upset is a scorned lover like...
Christine Schiefer: So when you're cheating... Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Like if I, I've, if I found a couple and I found out that they were cheating and I found love letters between them and, and their, you know, side person, I wouldn't first of all feel the need to kill them. And I certainly wouldn't like, be like, "And by the way, here are all your love letters. Bleh."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You'd be like...
Em Schulz: Why would I do that.
Christine Schiefer: It feels like it was operational of the church they worked out, like it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And there was one theory that they were maybe planning to elope, so maybe there was like, maybe they told, and you know what, there's one important thing I want to add real quick, which is probably obvious to everyone, but like, reminder that she comes from this massive fortune, like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Money can do so much. Like money can do anything.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You can clear your name with...
Em Schulz: Especially in the '20s with so little DNA and everything, and honestly.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. They didn't have that.
Em Schulz: You know, it'd be real fucking crazy if it was Francis who is the heiress you're talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Imagine if she killed them and then like alerted the media herself so she knew that everything would get touched.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] She called TMZ and said...
Em Schulz: On herself.
Christine Schiefer: A scoop.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. That would be interesting because...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: She probably knew people would fuck with that and like...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: She, it would be a better chance of her not getting caught.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: The, the, the name tag, the, like the business card.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, the calling...
Em Schulz: That's still an interesting move. Like, I get that, it's like a, I said power move earlier, but it does feel like, oh, I'm giving you a headstart. But that, sorry, I just caught a fly in my hand.
Christine Schiefer: I saw that with my own two eyes.
Em Schulz: Am I the karate kid? That was crazy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Uh...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. [chuckles]
Em Schulz: But I feel like, umm, uh...
Christine Schiefer: The calling card.
Em Schulz: The calling card feels weird. And I, I get that it's like a, it's giving narcissism...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And cockiness though. And I feel like no one in this group, no one kind of showed signs of that. Maybe Francis.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's kind of a weird, I wonder that's when I want the profilers to get involved. I'm like, what does it mean? And I wonder if, what if the card was just amongst the letters, you know? And he was like, here's my... Here's my calling card to, to Eleanor. Like, back when they first started talking, and maybe that's why he, it was in the letters and they just were like, I don't know. Who knows?
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But another weird circumstantial thing is that apparently in the year... In the, like, it was either weeks or months following the murders, uh, apparently Francis mailed her clothes, a bunch of her clothes, to Philadelphia and had them dyed black.
Em Schulz: So she was... [gasp] What? So she was already preparing for a funeral?
Christine Schiefer: No, it was after the murders. She, like, after the funerals. After the murders, she like had some of her clothes sent to get like deep cleaned and then all dyed black. And like, it could be a mourning thing or it could be like, those are compromised pieces of clothing. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Ohh. I was gonna say it was a mourning thing because a 100-years ago was the Winchester House story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes that's right.
Em Schulz: And when her husband died, she wore a black for like a long time.
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: Like three years or something.
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: Like I, it feels like she... But it still feels like she moved quickly. Like, it, it feels like in this whole story, I never heard about Jim or Francis grieving their partners, which I'm sure they did in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But like it sounds like she immediately went in to like task mode and it was like which I, I guess it's own way of grief.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah and I, I think part of it also that she had the mailed so far away, like almost...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like it didn't, like to the people...
Em Schulz: To get them away.
Christine Schiefer: They thought it was weird because they were like, "Why don't you go to your usual, like tailor."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I don't know. I, I guess that for some reason or another, umm, there was, there was a lot of suspicion about that fact.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't really know why. Uh...
Em Schulz: Well, she, she got away with it.
Christine Schiefer: If she did it, she got away with it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Man. I think this is one of my favorite episodes we've done in a while.
Christine Schiefer: I was will, I was will say, I was thinking that during your story. I was like, this is like, what a story.
Em Schulz: Eva write that down. 336.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: In case, in case we need an episode one day.
Christine Schiefer: In case we somehow need to recommend something.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: We talked about Burl a lot, so.
Em Schulz: Ugh, who could forget Burl.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, Christine, well done everybody, you would make.
Christine Schiefer: Good job folks.
Em Schulz: Umm, I guess, is that it until I see you when we record again?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. When do we record? Tomorrow? Probably.
Em Schulz: Maybe, I'm not sure.
Christine Schiefer: We need to listen to this episode.
Em Schulz: We'll figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, who knows maybe not.
Em Schulz: Ugh. I'm so excited to go have little lunch now. Make myself sammy.
Christine Schiefer: I'm hungry.
Em Schulz: Yeah, we're having a good time.
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: Well thank you everybody for listening and umm I guess, uh, I don't know...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Until next time.
Em Schulz: Until next time, I had a... I had a plan and then it went away. So I guess we'll just leave you with that.
Christine Schiefer: As we always say.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
[do do do do, do do do do spooky sound]
Christine Schiefer: Ahh!
