[intro music]
Em Schulz: Hello, Christine, my little Hircine Shifter.
Christine Schiefer: Hi.
Em Schulz: My favorite little monster.
Christine Schiefer: How are you?
Em Schulz: I'm fine. How are you?
Christine Schiefer: I'm excellent. Thank you for asking a new Fall Out Boy song came out today and I'm so thrilled you asked my opinion about it.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's so good, and it's, umm, basically a cover of Billy Joel's We Didn't Start the Fire, but with mo... With from 1989 to 2023.
Em Schulz: Oh, I don't know what that means entirely, but it sounds good.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you know, like in, We Didn't Start the Fire. He is like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Vietnam, blah, blah, blah. So this one is like, you know, Pokemon.
Em Schulz: Oh, I gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: George Floyd, Trump got indicted twice and he says in the song, Golden State Killer, or Golden State Killer got caught, is one of the lines.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And then another line is Fermi Paradox.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. So that's a 10 out of 10 for me.
Christine Schiefer: I gotta tell you, I was beside myself. It's better than the original. Sorry, Billy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Fermi Paradox is where I'm... I'm sitting. And Pokemon doesn't hurt.
Christine Schiefer: I screamed. It's like Stranger Things, Tiger King, da da da da da da. It's so good, you guys.
Em Schulz: Sounds pretty good.
Christine Schiefer: Did I tell you a secret?
Em Schulz: Did you tell me a secret? What?
Christine Schiefer: I'm... I got tickets to the Fall Out Boy concert, uh, in like a couple weeks. And I surprised Renée and she's gonna drive down and we're gonna go!
Em Schulz: Oh, that's very fun. When was the last time you saw them live?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I saw them in Cleveland with Renée, like pre COVID, I think it was pre COVID.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: So a long time ago.
Em Schulz: Oh wow, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I'm so excited.
Em Schulz: Wow. What's your favorite song that they do live?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, they performed Hum Hallelujah, which is the song that I'm gonna get my tattoo of, umm, and it's kind of like a lesser known song? Or at least like a less popular one. And so it was not on the set list that I had like studied and prepared for. And when they sang it, Renée and I were like, it's a sign 'cause it was our song, you know.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I'm hoping they sing that, but now I want them to sing about the Fermi Paradox, so.
Em Schulz: I mean, I wonder if... Uh, you're gonna have to practice your chant. 'Cause when that comes out live, you're gonna have to know what they're saying. You know.
Christine Schiefer: You know me, I get obsessed with lyrics and I memorize every single word like a lunatic. Umm, but I will say also, guess what I'm doing In 48 hours, I'm going to see Taylor Swift.
Em Schulz: The Eras Tour?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. My brother got me a ticket.
Em Schulz: Why have we never discussed that?
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I forgot.
Em Schulz: Oh, most Swifties I think would be really up... Like would be a gobsmacked [laughter] that you could forget something like that.
Christine Schiefer: I told my friend, I was like, "Oh, do you wanna grab drinks Friday? I don't have anything going on." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And then my mom was like, "Hey, do you need me to watch Leona for the concert Friday?" I was like, "What concert?"
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And she said, "Are you not going to Taylor Swift?" And I was like, "Oh, right."
Em Schulz: Someone is punching the air right now. So, upset with you.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I'm sorry, but... But okay. To make you feel better, everybody, I've been listening to the Eras set list on repeat. And I'm fucking amped.
Em Schulz: You... You know what's coming.
Christine Schiefer: I do love to Swift. I just like kind of... I do this thing when there's a sensory overload of... Or like an emotional overload and I immediately shut down and compartmentalize and put it far, far away.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like the time Chip Coffey like commented or followed me or whatever.
Em Schulz: Oh right.
Christine Schiefer: And like I saw it and I just immediately forgot. And then you brought it up on the show and I went, "Oh, yeah." I like totally take things out of my brain and I place them aside. So I just remembered today that I'm seeing T-Swift and I'm seeing Fall Out Boy, we're all happy.
Em Schulz: Are you cau... Are you caught up on like the... The lore that is Taylor Swift and like what all the songs mean?
Christine Schiefer: Ish. Ish. I got into kind of a... A... A zone a few, like a week ago, and I was like analyzing everything.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So I... But not as like Alexander's girlfriend, Dee is like in it, like she will argue with people about like, who's this is... Joe did this, and this is about Joe. I... I'm like, I don't know, man.
Em Schulz: Do... Do you know the, the times when you're expected to interact with the songs?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Oh, you're gonna have a rough time.
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't like fucking throw bread at the screen like, uh...
Em Schulz: Well, like there's certain things that, like you have to like shout at certain songs and... Alright.
Christine Schiefer: Fermi Paradox, Pokemon, no.
Em Schulz: Sure. I think you're gonna have have a lot of FOMO if you don't practice the... The... The rules. So maybe you have Dee teach you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay well. My brother, sister, and Blaise have not told me anything about this and they're the other people attending with me, so I feel like at least I won't be alone. I'm gonna text my brother now and say, "What are the interactions I'm expected to perform at the concert on Friday?"
Em Schulz: I'll just give it like... Just TikTok, 1, 2, 3, Let's Go, Bitch. Just, just look that up and that should get you in the right direction.
Christine Schiefer: Oh right okay. I will. Thank you for... Thank you for your tips.
Em Schulz: I mean, I should be at this fucking concert, but, okay. [laughter] I hope you have...
Christine Schiefer: You should be. Sorry, my brother, apparently... Oh, my brother says, "Excuse me?"
Em Schulz: Okay, so everyone's gonna feel a little silly.
Christine Schiefer: Em says, there are interactions.
Em Schulz: Just... No, just type back, 1, 2, 3, Let's Go, Bitch.
Christine Schiefer: 1, 2, 3, Let's Go, Bitch, question mark.
Em Schulz: No, not question mark. Just, just say it. See what happens.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I know you put a question mark. I don't even trust you.
Christine Schiefer: I did. It's too late. I didn't, I... I'm sorry. Guess what I'm drinking.
Em Schulz: What? Taylor Swift's personal water? And you just forgot to mention it.
Christine Schiefer: Earl Gray Tea.
Em Schulz: Ah, I'm having Agua. I'm having water just like Taylor Swift probably is.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: By the way, this is everyone's weekly reminder to take a sip of fucking water because it's sitting on your desk and you haven't touched that cup in like hours. So, take a sip.
Christine Schiefer: I've got a Brita filter for my office so that I would drink more water up here.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay. Well that's nice.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 'Cause otherwise I have to go to the third floor. But the sink appears... Like, really it's like a hundred years old and I'm like, I don't know how rusty that is. So, you know what I mean...
Em Schulz: The sink does look a little haunted. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right? And so instead I got a filter, Brita filter, and I have my mini fridge and I'm... I'm thriving and I'm hydrating.
Em Schulz: With love If you ever had to renovate that floor, maybe just get entirely new pipes, just rip the walls out.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The Brita filter is doing great, Em, I don't know what your problem is. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I... I just I... I don't know if I'd brush my teeth safely in that bathroom, you know what I mean? But I'll... I'll wash my hands but... But maybe I'd rewash them downstairs, I don't know. [laughter] But okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, yeah, it's true. I mean listen, I've lived in old houses my whole life, I get it... It's... It's... There's something unappealing about very creaky old sinks, yeah, I'm with you...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, yeah, creaky is a good word, yeah. Oh well, what do we do now?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, are you good? I know we've checked in on your legs every day for a while.
Em Schulz: Oh, sure my legs are... Umm, they look really disgusting, I am apparently... It's hard to give an update when Christine is so grossed out with every comment about the veins.
Christine Schiefer: No It's not even every comment, like it's not even every comment.
Em Schulz: It's just some.
Christine Schiefer: It was when you said... It's when you said some really specific things that just like hashtag triggered me. I was like you... Like I already don't like veins, it's... But I'm being very brave and strong for you.
Em Schulz: Do you wanna... Do you want to like hang up the headphones for a second while I give everyone an update and then I'll...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, do they want to know that? Are they gonna scream and veer off the road like I would?
Em Schulz: I don't know, you gave me a platform and now I want to use it, my legs are fine, that's all people need to know I guess. Also...
Christine Schiefer: They're just vein... Vein troubles.
Em Schulz: Thank you to everyone who apparently operates on people like me who has written in and told me why my legs were in so much pain during the procedure, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah you got some... I saw in Slack some uh some some comments, some write-ins, some tips and tricks.
Em Schulz: I... I... I'd like to give you, umm, an update but all I'm gonna say is that apparently they were just injecting basically hydrochloric acid into my legs, umm...
Christine Schiefer: That sounds...
Em Schulz: And that's where we'll end it because Christine will barf if I say anymore.
Christine Schiefer: No that doesn't bother me. Yeah, sorry, I know it bothers you, but it... That doesn't bother me. It's when you get into the specifics of like what the veins are doing and look like and whoa, no.
Em Schulz: I understand.
Christine Schiefer: It's... It's also the word catheter, I can't... I really struggle with that word, it really, uh, really just does something to me I don't know. And I've had one you know I... Like when I was still in labour.
Em Schulz: Oh. Yeah, yeah, the catheters are not good. Especially, 'cause like...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Never mind, never mind.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "Why does it smell like pee in here?"
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, I understand.
Christine Schiefer: And Blaise is like, "It's because you're peeing." And I was like, "No I'm not."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But I was.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, you're talking about your labor, I thought you were talking about right now. I was like what a topic change!
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No I said I got a catheter, keep up Em.
Em Schulz: Umm so you... I mean I'm not surprised that you were peeing because like you were pushing everything out but like did... Was everyone just like watching you pee?
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, it's like I had a catheter in for like 25 hours, so it was like well obviously over that time you're gonna have to pee right, but since they numb you all the way down there if you get...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, an epidural then you can't like control your peeing and so...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, literally everyone just sees you peeing, it's, umm... And then they were like, "You're peeing a lot." And I was like, "Sorry? Jesus." Everyone was like judging.
Em Schulz: I'm a hydrated girly, leave me alone.
Em Schulz: Yeah, excuse me I got a Brita filter for from my rusty ass sink, I don't know what you want from me.
Em Schulz: Yeah, you would think you would want women carrying babies, people carrying babies, you would want them to be hydrated since they're taking care of two beings, but okay whatever.
Christine Schiefer: I would... I would think but I guess everyone had a fucking problem. Umm, I was also in a bad mood, don't ask me why, it's 'cause I was in labor, umm...
Em Schulz: I was... I was gonna say it's because you're pushing a human being out?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'd be a real bad mood.
Christine Schiefer: So Actually it was 'cause I wasn't pushing a baby out, 'cause she was in there for 30 fucking hours, but you know, it was not a great time, I don't know why we're talking about my labor, oh, 'cause catheters, anyway.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know we're full of ailments on this show, is the moral of the story.
Em Schulz: I'd argue having a baby was a chosen ailment maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Huge ailment though, yeah still an ailment, I gotta say, still a... Still a doozy on the bo... Old body you know. Oh.
Em Schulz: Sss-
Christine Schiefer: You were gonna segue and I don't know what you're gonna say, but...
Em Schulz: No, I was... I wasn't gonna segue I was gonna keep... Keep it up.
Christine Schiefer: Okay I was just gonna say, uh, I... I'm very... I'm doing a 180 but I'm very thrilled for our first SHH tonight which is, umm...
Em Schulz: Oh yes, oh yes.
Christine Schiefer: Our Sad Happy Hour which Eva remarks is abbreviated as SHH. It give...
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm excited too.
Christine Schiefer: It like gives me anxiety 'cause I'm like I don't like being shushed and I'm like a little worried that every time I say it people are gonna be like, "Are you shushing me?" Umm...
Em Schulz: See, I'm more worried about like how much stuff we have to talk about. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh it's a long...
Em Schulz: Apparently it's gonna be quite a long meeting, 'cause we've been... Uh, our Sad Happy Hours usually are not that long, usually they're like a half an hour but we've missed the last few happy hours.
Christine Schiefer: And we've never done... We've done like one, ever.
Em Schulz: Oh, I'm cons... I'm considering every other meeting we've ever had it just didn't have a name or something.
Christine Schiefer: Or before recording. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. But we've never had an official sit-down like this chunk of time is just to go over shit.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We had like maybe one on the phone, but this time the list just keeps getting longer and now I'm adding shit to the list and I'm like, oh God.
Em Schulz: Oh my, okay, well.
Christine Schiefer: One of these things says color block apparel ideas from Em and Christine like do I remember that? No, someone has to remind me.
Em Schulz: No but I love the idea of the color block! Yeah no.
Christine Schiefer: Color block? What a great idea Em? That we had apparently.
Em Schulz: You know I love a color block.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so guys I guess look out for that, watch this the space, umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause color block might or might not be coming someday.
Em Schulz: Boy, well, Christine I guess that means we gotta get things cooking if we've got a whole ass meeting after this.
Christine Schiefer: Let's fucking do it.
Em Schulz: We actually have...
Christine Schiefer: Let's rock and roll.
Em Schulz: We have two meetings after this. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: We do?
Em Schulz: We have a phone call.
Christine Schiefer: We do?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Tomorrow, right?
Em Schulz: No, we have... [chuckle] We have... We're talking to our manager?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, oh, that's part of sad happy hour, she just wanted to pop in to have Sad Happy Hour.
Em Schulz: Is it? Alright.
Christine Schiefer: Where have you been?
Em Schulz: Is it? Alright. Let's call it a meeting and a half. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, sure.
Em Schulz: Here we go. Here is, umm, kind of a story about, uh... An exorcism is involved but this isn't...
Christine Schiefer: Are you... You're not pitching this very well I feel like if I were in... In the meeting and be like, "Next."
Em Schulz: Okay, here's a...
Christine Schiefer: This is kind of story.
Em Schulz: Here's a story... Here's a story that involves exorcism.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh! Okay I'm in.
Em Schulz: This is the story of Sister Magdalena of The Cross and content warning, self-harm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, dear. Uh, Magdalena is a family name in my family.
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Did your family not wanna include you in that or what's the situation?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's my cou... My cousin was named Magda, and she's older than me, so we didn't... I don't think they repeated names, but, umm...
Em Schulz: Is it... You think it's gonna make it to the next generation?
Christine Schiefer: I dunno.
Em Schulz: You don't think so.
Christine Schiefer: Magda... Her name's Magdalena. I think it's pretty Mag... Magdalena, I don't know. It's a little too Catholic for me.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I think so. Yeah. Right up there with Jesus, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Well, you know, Jesús is a... Is a name a pretty popular one.
Em Schulz: I'm fine with Jesús, but if I heard someone go, oh, no, actually it's Jesus. I'd go, okay. Hmm. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. What are you doing?
Em Schulz: Okay. So we are going back to the 1480s. We know it well, 1487...
Christine Schiefer: I fucking love it.
Em Schulz: In Cordoba in Spain.
Christine Schiefer: That Era of T-Swift was like... Popping off.
Em Schulz: Talk about Eras.
Christine Schiefer: Eras.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, I bet Magdalena knew the interactive parts of the concert.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She would've at least told somebody if she got the tickets.
Christine Schiefer: One two three bitch. Is that how it goes...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: 1, 2, 3, Let's Go, Bitch. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I was close.
Em Schulz: You were you... Hey, you're... You're practicing. I like that.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Okay. 1487. Spain Sister Magdalena is born.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: This is where our story begins. Her parents were artists. They did not have a lot of money, but they were very religious. And Spain equals Catholic a lot of the time.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, let me write that down.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that one I think, you know, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I think... I think so.
Em Schulz: Just... Just from the normal indoctrination.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds... Yeah, yeah, exactly. It sounds familiar.
Em Schulz: Apparently as Columbus was sailing the ocean blue, uh, at 5 years old Magdalena...
Christine Schiefer: To rape and pillage everyone. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Nope, that's the truth. [laughter] We should rewrite the... The jingle, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, good idea.
Em Schulz: Five year old Magdalena at the same time, has a vision in church.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: She hears music out of nowhere and sees a very beautiful man with long hair and a mantle, which like a robe worn by prophets. It was so bright that she had to close her eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: This man, uh, comes to her in church. She immediately tells people in... Uh, in the church what happened. And they think she has been visited by Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you gotta be careful back then what you say. I mean now too with the internet, but like back then you say like anything slightly weird and they're like, either you're a witch or like you're a saint. Something...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Dramatic is gonna happen.
Em Schulz: And honestly, I guess this wasn't the era of like, witch trials, not to my knowledge, but if you say, I had a vision that could have gone real bad for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. That's a scary thing to admit to multiple people.
Em Schulz: Thank God they believed her. And like...
Christine Schiefer: In a good way. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In a good way. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So they thought she had been visited by Jesus, and therefore she must be like, I guess her own prophet or you know, someone to look up to as a religious authority. So at 5 years old, so people are starting to travel to her just to meet her, just to have prayers answered or prayers, you know, interacted with. I don't totally understand how it works, [laughter] but people wanted to see her and they had prayers that she in theory could, you know, resolved for them.
Christine Schiefer: Interact with. Okay.
Em Schulz: Interact with. Let's go... One, two, three let's go bitch. [laughter] Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Vamonos bi-ach.
Em Schulz: So during this... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm trying to think of how you say that in Spanish. I'm sure it's not that.
Em Schulz: I... I don't know how you say bitch. Puta? No.
Christine Schiefer: I think... I think so. I mean...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's close enough.
Em Schulz: Umm, Spanish speakers. Weigh in, okay. Uh.
[foreign language]
Em Schulz: Uno, dos, tres, vamonos puta?
Christine Schiefer: Beautiful. I'm gonna say that at the concert.
Em Schulz: Okay. That'll definitely work in your favor. At least...
Christine Schiefer: I think.
Em Schulz: It's got a creative flare to it, which I appreciate.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, I have an idea. What if I text everyone who's going to the concert and be like, this is what we have to do, and then I...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Sneak away to buy a beer and then when they do it...
Em Schulz: The sic...
Christine Schiefer: Everyone has to laugh at them.
Em Schulz: The sick part is, I do think you could find the name and number of every single person who's going to this concert.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I meant my group of people.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But... But but yes. I could also find the several tens of thousands that will be attending. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I... I... I really just thought you were so casually saying, I'll text everyone.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just gonna text them. I'll text the entire stadium of people.
Em Schulz: If anyone could do it, it would be you.
Christine Schiefer: I do appreciate your immediate just getting on board and saying, sure, go for it.
Em Schulz: I'd say...
[foreign language]
Em Schulz: Uno, dos, tres, vamonos puta, you know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, she... So now people are following or... Or coming to her just to talk to her, just to see her. Umm, again, she's 5, so I'm immediately running on the theory that she felt a weird pressure to...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Continue to impress. Umm, but, uh, so she's... During this other, this... This time when people are approaching her, she's constantly having more visions, which we don't know if that's legit or not, but you know, you decide for yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: And not only is she having visions, during this time she is falling into religious ecstasies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Which, do you know what an ecstasy is?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's... It's...
Em Schulz: I did not... So a religious ecstasy, umm, is... Have you seen people have these moments?
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I think there was a lag on my end and it... It sounded like I was just blurting in. Umm, have I seen someone have this? No. Thank God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, apparently these ecstasies are an altered consciousness when someone, theoretically, connects to the spiritual world. I imagine this is similar to like speaking in tongues or something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That... That's exactly kind of how I picture like the Catholic version of that. I feel like it's kind of in my mind when people had seizures back then, they were like, oh, it's a religious ecstasy. But I don't... That's just my own understanding. So I don't know.
Em Schulz: Uh, I think in a world where seizures were not considered seizures yet, something... It was misdiagnosed as something.
Christine Schiefer: Something, right?
Em Schulz: And why not make it religious? Umm, fun fact when it comes to religious ecstasies, uh, Christians would test people to see if they were truly having an ecstasy. Umm, by... Do you know this?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mmm.
Em Schulz: What happens? They would put... I'm so sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Pins?
Em Schulz: Needles.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I knew it.
Em Schulz: Into their... Into the hands and feet of someone.
Christine Schiefer: I...
Em Schulz: Having an ecstasy to see...
Christine Schiefer: I did know...
Em Schulz: If they would react or not.
Christine Schiefer: I did know that for some god... God forsaken reason. I don't know why I knew that, but I did know that. Yeah, that's horrific.
Em Schulz: So, umm, if they reacted or winced, then it meant that they were still of the ph...
Christine Schiefer: Liar. [laughter]
Em Schulz: They were in their physical body with their physical consciousness, and thus could have not been in the middle of ascension.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, she's going through religious ecstasies, uh, and her popularity grows. More people travel to her and Magdalena obviously gets overwhelmed with this.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And runs away.
Christine Schiefer: Oh honey, she's so little.
Em Schulz: She runs and hides in a cave and there she has another vision. And when she wakes up from the vision, she wakes up in her own bed.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: When this happened, she claims that her guardian angel brought her home.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Which led her to being much more trusting in her gifts and kind of emboldened her dedication to Christianity because she truly thought her guardian angel...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's kinda cute.
Em Schulz: That's kinda cute. And then also damaging, 'cause now she's feeding into her own.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know, like if this was mental illness or something.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, we're just totally ignoring that and she's becoming very bias in what this is all about.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Umm, so she begins to deny herself pleasures and avoid temptations to impress Jesus? I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Mmh.
Em Schulz: And soon she has another vision and Jesus comes to her and Jesus tells her to... Like, it's like I appreciate, umm, the penance you're giving yourself, but like, chill the fuck out. Umm, if you keep doing this so intensely, it's going to affect your health.
Christine Schiefer: You're also five.
Em Schulz: You're also five. Like, take chill pill girl. And...
Christine Schiefer: Like eat an Oreo. It's okay. Don't deprive yourself.
Em Schulz: If you gave someone from 1492 an Oreo, I think their brain would explode.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think... I think their body would explode. They'd be like, what is hydrogenated oil? It's killed me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What's lard? Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: I'm dead now. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, have you ever seen those games on those... Those TikToks of like, things that would put a little...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Orphan girl from the past into a coma?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And it's... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's my favorite.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Out of context that sounds really bad. I don't mean it's my favorite. Like to put a orphan in a coma. I mean, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In context of the game. Yeah.
Em Schulz: We love orphans in comas. [laughter] We love that.
Christine Schiefer: And you know what, I'm just gonna say it and I'm not gonna back down and I'm not gonna make excuses 'cause this is the real me. And if you have a problem.
Em Schulz: Then maybe you need to learn and listen. You know?
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
Em Schulz: It's not on us.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, Jesus did not offer her an Oreo. Jesus just said like, fucking relax.
Christine Schiefer: Chill.
Em Schulz: I... I like to think that is actually a direct quote from the Bible. Fucking relax. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Just fucking relax. Take a chill pill.
Em Schulz: If that was... If that was something from a Bible, that would be on every t-shirt by the way, that a church had to offer.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Every... It would be like... It'd be there like, peace, pray, love or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Peace, pray, love. Yeah, you know.
Em Schulz: Is it eat, pray... Eat, pray, love, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Eat, pray... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just... It's like a fucking, a book. Not the Bible, but a book.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God, Em.
Em Schulz: I'd be really good at making Christian shirts, I think.
Christine Schiefer: My Bible is eat, pray, love. So if you have a problem with that, you can go eat, pray, love somewhere else.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You eat, pray haters.
Em Schulz: So he... He comes to her, he says, you need to relax because you are avoiding too many indulgences. You are, umm, denying yourself too many pleasures, like, you're a 5-year-old, chill the fuck out. Umm, and I guess she... Oh, God, you're frozen again.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry everybody. I'm sorry, Jack our editor. I'm sorry. What a mess.
Em Schulz: It's literally been, umm...
Christine Schiefer: This is a disaster.
Em Schulz: Uh, an hour and a half of us with technical difficulties, it seems. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, like, nonstop, like, the number of files. And I told Em, I think it's because we were talking about renovating this floor, which is where my ghost, Harry, lives. I'm like, I think maybe he's offended that we wanna get rid of his rusty pipes...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I apologize. Em loves the state of our third floor.
Em Schulz: Loves it. Loves it. Wants to...
Christine Schiefer: Loves it.
Em Schulz: Gargle the water. Yes. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. What the F? All this nonsense just to hear about little 5-year-old Magdalena...
Em Schulz: Magdalena.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't... Let's just... Let's just dive in.
Christine Schiefer: I had to get my vape out for this.
Em Schulz: Should I just start from a few bullets ago and just see...
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Jesus showed up, I remember that. And he said chill out...
Em Schulz: Jesus showed up and said chill, umm, because she was taking her penances too seriously. Which by the way, if you don't know what a penance is, because I did not, because I did not grow up religious...
Christine Schiefer: Of course I know. I live in penance. I'm going to hell every second of every day.
Em Schulz: It's a punishment for your sins. Is that right?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's basically, like, you are doing penance, like, you are atoning for your sins.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Okay. So, uh, she was apparently doing too much at five, which like, I don't even wanna know what that looks like. But she was stressing herself out. Jesus showed up. That's how bad she was stressing herself out.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Seriously. Like even... Even Jesus hasn't even shown up for me, and I feel like on the stress level, we... You and I have been pretty high up there.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, umm, he shows up and says chillax. Then she, uh, decides that she's going to run back home, 'cause remember she ran away...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God, wait, I got it. A new t-shirt. Chillax: Chapter Four, Verse 20.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: That's a good one. I like that. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Thanks.
Em Schulz: What, what book is that from though?
Christine Schiefer: The Book of Christine.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: As you take a vape. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, to, by the way, this is Delta-9, it's legal, federally legal in all states. Before anybody on the internet is like, cancel this video.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay, fair enough. That's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: It's legal.
Em Schulz: So, uh, she runs back to her local church and she begins to pray, uh, and has another bout of ecstasy.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Someone finds her in the church while this is happening to her. And, fun fact, they tried to look in her eyes and in the reflection of her eyes, they claimed to have seen the Holy Trinity and saints. That's a lot of things to see in one eyeball.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: In the reflection of her eyes. Wow.
Em Schulz: How many saints are there?
Christine Schiefer: How close are you to this poor girl's face that you can see all that?
Em Schulz: Plus three more, the Holy Trinity. So there's... There's a lot going on in that eyeball.
Christine Schiefer: How do you see... Hold on. How do you see the Holy Spirit or God? I don't understand how you see the Trinity.
Em Schulz: And how do you see the saints in like 4K, where you know that you're looking at saints and not just, like, yourself in the reflection of the eyes?
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like a blurry person.
Em Schulz: Yeah. How is it so defined?
Christine Schiefer: Mmh, maybe they have halos or something.
Em Schulz: I... Well, shortly after this, people begin claiming that she's now also healing them.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: So, uh, one guy told Magdalena, or told the town that Magdalena had actually cured his limp, and a another person who had trouble speaking said that she had cured his voice.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So now she's also a healer. So she's becoming...
Christine Schiefer: Good for her.
Em Schulz: More and more that of Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And the church is now getting freaked out because it's like, how are you healing people? You know, these ecstasies was one thing, but now like seeing people walk without a limp that they always had is kinda crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Many of them are getting, like, skeptical at this point that, like, something's going on. Umm, they try to interrogate her, she's five and nothing comes from it. Umm, meanwhile, the town still considers her incredibly powerful. However, three months before her first communion, she decides that she's going to fast until the communion.
Christine Schiefer: [sigh] She can't decide that, she's five. Like, that's so upsetting.
Em Schulz: Her parents would beg her to eat...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well that's good at least.
Em Schulz: And she would say that she did not need to eat food. I would've just started shoving food in her mouth or something, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus... Jesus is like, did I not... Did I or did I not just tell you to chill out?
Em Schulz: Yeah. He's... Like, she's really just going against, maybe she thought that was a challenge, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, oh, yeah, I get it. Wink. And Jesus is like, no, no, wink. She's like, wink.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] I'm onto you JC.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So despite her fasting for three months, she does seem to be perfectly healthy, which by the way, like, emboldens people's belief in her, that like, she was meant to do this and Jesus is looking after her and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But when her communion actually came around, during the ceremony she loses it. Apparently during the Eucharist, which again, I had to learn what that is. It's when they...
Christine Schiefer: Em, where have you been? You don't know what the Eucharist is?
Em Schulz: No, I've been to a church maybe 10 times in my life.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but after Rituals and all that nonsense we talked about Catholicism, I feel like I taught you a thing or two.
Em Schulz: You did, but it was one of those things where I can't simply remember every episode we've ever covered in detail...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fine.
Em Schulz: So I know I've heard of the Eucharist, and I know that the wafer is involved, but I... I don't know what it represents, you know?
Christine Schiefer: The body of Christ, and it doesn't represent the body of Christ.
Em Schulz: It is.
Christine Schiefer: It's literally his flesh.
Em Schulz: Okay. So anyway, during the Eucharist, when your... The shitty wafer is turned into literal flesh and you're supposed to now be a cannibal...
Christine Schiefer: You eat it.
Em Schulz: I guess. Umm, Magdalena begins screaming and falls to the floor, that like... As if her body can't, repels this part of the ceremony.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Umm, I guess because she does not want to receive Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Uh, or her, her body or soul or something does not. She ends up on the floor screaming. She gets up and says that she does not need to take Eucharist because Jesus has already, uh, put the wafer in her mouth himself. Nobody saw it, but apparently that's what happened.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, okay. Is this like a magic trick? Like...
Em Schulz: That's what I'm thinking.
Christine Schiefer: Check your pocket.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Again, this person's five, I'd start to wonder, like, where logic ends, and, like, a 5-year-old just telling you a story begins.
Christine Schiefer: And a 5-year-old's of being a 5-year-old. Right.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, I don't wanna eat a shitty wafer, which at 30 by the way, I'd also have a panic attack if I had to... Had to eat one more of those things, 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: I think they taste good.
Em Schulz: Do you? Well...
Christine Schiefer: It's probably a little thing called, Pavlovian conditioning.
Em Schulz: So she says, I don't need to take Eucharist, Jesus has already, like, handled that. So, and then they believed her because she's got, like, these prophet abilities, and so they just kind of let her get away with it, AKA, she never truly received Jesus, if you are following the Christian understanding of that. Then a few years later, 1497, she's now 10 years old, and Magdalena is now dressing very modestly, uh, to humble herself. I guess the people in town thought that she was very beautiful, and to her that was a sin.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: So she was like, I, that can't... That can't be the situation. Modest is hottest, we're gonna have to really get it together. Umm, and as penance for her beauty... Wow. The fact that, like, anything could be... Could need penance...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: She began to self-harm with flagellation, which is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Beating and whipping yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and, so you'd think like, oh, man, that's, that's really sad that a 10-year-old is whipping herself because she hates how beautiful she is...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So twisted.
Christine Schiefer: That's dark. It's extremely dark.
Em Schulz: Okay. Hold that comment and say it in about 30 seconds, because after, uh, self-flagellation wasn't enough, she decides to crucify herself.
Christine Schiefer: What?!
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, listen, is she jealous that, like, she didn't get stigmata like the other saints...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And so she's like, I guess I have to do it to myself?
Em Schulz: She literally on her own bedroom wall, nails her feet down into the wall...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And her left hand.
Christine Schiefer: And then she's like, wait a second. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Then she's like, I can't...
Christine Schiefer: Dad.
Em Schulz: Get all the way there. [laughter] That's so fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's ins... It's...
Em Schulz: But yeah, like, it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's so... It's so fucked up, like, come on.
Em Schulz: It also... It also shows, like, a 10-year-old clearly not seeing something through, like, not thinking it all the way through, like...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: Even in the most basic way of like, who's gonna nail down the other hand? And also like, let's be realistic. And this... I know this is a fucked up conversation to have. I'm very aware of that, but like, I am, impressed is the wrong word, but I don't know physically how you actually nail your feet to a wall and then stand up and get your hand up, I don't know how that actually works?
Christine Schiefer: I... I... I agree. That seems, umm...
Em Schulz: It seems impossible.
Christine Schiefer: Impossible. Umm...
Em Schulz: I'm so, impressed is the wrong word, just to clarify, but I am... I am trying to figure out how that was even possible.
Christine Schiefer: It's... You're baffled. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I... Okay. I have a fun fact about the crucifixion.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so actually, Jesus, uh, when they crucified people back then, which was a form of, uh, execution...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, not just Jesus, it was, like, a more widespread thing...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, they wouldn't nail you in hand because your, your tendons would tear away too easily, and so, umm, they would nail... They would nail nail it right between here, like, on your wrist. And so that's why... So actually his wrists were... Uh, were the ones that were nailed in. And then...
Em Schulz: I always wondered, because I feel like some of the statues are hands, some are wrists.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's the wrist for sure, if it's at least historically accurate. And, umm, it makes your hands kind of, like, fold in also. Also fun fact, umm, I learned that in the second grade.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. So you were just about her age.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Mrs. Catter was like, "You know, your tendons would rip out." And I was like, cool. This seems like, umm...
Em Schulz: I like how...
Christine Schiefer: A perfectly healthy conversation to have.
Em Schulz: In this one space we're adding science to the mix of Christianity. I love that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right. I know. I'm like, I literally heard myself say, oh, well, if his crucifixion was historically accurate, and I'm like, what are we saying right now?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is the craziest conversation.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, uh, she literally nails herself to her own bedroom wall, which by the way, imagine being her parents and walking in on that?
Christine Schiefer: Like, they talk about parents walking in and seeing kids Sharpie-ing the wall. This is like, that times 8,000.
Em Schulz: Your child's blood everywhere, because they're trying to...
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, hi, mom.
Em Schulz: They're trying to prove that, you know, they're worthy or something, I...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, you won't eat a grilled cheese but you will nail yourself to the wall. Cool. This is definitely...
Em Schulz: Well, also speaking of, I guess not really science, but just another logical factoid that I wouldn't have even thought of, is that she nailed herself to, uh, I guess essentially drywall of the 1400s, because the wall gives out under her weight, and now she's nailed to a wall and the wall comes crashing down in her room, and then she breaks her ribs on the floor.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, so she... She fell forward?
Em Schulz: She fell forward because the wall, I guess, couldn't support her weight.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, my guess is that back in... Back then it was probably just, like, timber or woodwork.
Em Schulz: Clay or something. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I would think probably just, like, wood planks or something. She probably just knocked it over.
Em Schulz: And she fell over...
Christine Schiefer: Girl...
Em Schulz: Cracked her ribs. And then a doctor tries to mend her wounds...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And, uh, she kept trying to take off the bandages to expose her wounds as penance, again.
Christine Schiefer: Girl, like, this is so... Like, I wish...
Em Schulz: It's obsessive. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: I just wish there was, like, child therapy back then. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Or any therapy. Like, this is so upsetting.
Em Schulz: Any therapy. Uh, and it obviously made her sick because she was exposing massive wounds...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: To like, really important parts of her body. Umm, so it made her ill. So she was now bedridden and the whole time she is still fasting, by the way. So...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, come on.
Em Schulz: How, and... And top of... On top of that too, this is just, like, a weird thing about her, I guess not weird, that's the wrong word, but, umm, people try... Are trying to make it into a spectacle where she, I guess had two fingers that just had some sort of, like, thing and they never grew to full size. So they just stayed, like, the size of, like, a... A baby's fingers...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, they try to turn that into like, oh, well Jesus touched these and they stayed small forever. Like, they try to turn it into a thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: So she's now... She's bedridden from refusing to have bandages on her wounds. Umm, I wanted to throw in the, I guess, fun fact about her fingers because they try to turn that into something. And while she's bedridden as clocks... As the clock struck midnight on Easter Sunday of course, she sits up in bed, starts screaming, rips off the new bandages they just put on her, and she says that Jesus Christ has come and is healing her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Umm, and she doesn't need the wound... She doesn't need the wound bandages because he's gonna heal her.
Christine Schiefer: You don't need your Band-Aids. Oh, God. Jesus is my Band-Aid, that's another t-shirt I'm gonna make.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And, uh, somehow her wounds actually are healing, I don't know how that happened. Umm, scientists weigh in. Uh, she continued though to self-flagellate daily for another six years. And by 16, she's doing this every night, and yet somehow her wounds are completely healed by morning.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, you're right, this is, like, deep self-harm stuff. Like, yikes.
Em Schulz: Uh, so now we're in 1504, she's 17. And Magdalena joins the convent called Elizabeth of the Angels, and she becomes a Franciscan nun.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Fun fact, do you know the difference between nuns and sisters?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Apparently... Which I think once I say it you'll have recognized it, that sisters seem to engage with the public and do acts of service and charity, whereas nuns are in solitude and rarely leave the convent.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! I didn't know there was a difference.
Em Schulz: So, uh... Fun fact for you, I guess I'm the Christian here. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. How the tables have turned.
Em Schulz: With the reputation she has of being a literal living saint, uh, many people were thrilled that she had chosen to join the convent. And for her, the day where she was doing her holy orders, where she, like, takes her vows of, you know, worshiping Christ...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: She was told to take them in private, when you... That's usually not the case.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, I guess it's because she was seen as so powerful, umm, usually the church will bring in all these, like, nobles and an archbishop and everything, except they're usually the religious authority over you, while you're promising yourself to Christ. But for her holy orders, the Cardinal asked her to pray for them.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: Because she... They... So immediately from, like, the get go, she's being seen as more powerful than them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, top of the food chain.
Em Schulz: Climbing the ladder real quick.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, so she was given the name Sister Magdalena de la Cruz or Magdalena of the Cross, because of her self-crucifixion story. Umm, and during one of the prayers during this day, a dove came in and literally landed on her shoulder. And then it looked like the dove was whispering to her, and then it flew...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] It's my dream. [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like you're Snow White.
Christine Schiefer: I want a... I want a morning... Morning dove to come coo, coo in my ear.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and so the... He went coo, coo, coo and then flew up to the ceiling and continued to watch the rest of the ceremony. And many people, that was the hol..., thought that was the Holy Spirit coming to visit her on her holy orders day.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I guess, I did ask, what does the Holy Spirit look like? Yeah, a dove, that would make sense.
Em Schulz: A dove. Uh, after this, many patrons began donating quite a lot to the church that she was a part of. So just another maybe potential pressure to continue on with this. And after she became a nun, she began having remote visions of areas that she wasn't even in. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Her powers are growing and she could recite conversations people were having in spaces she wasn't even nearby.
Christine Schiefer: She's like an astral spy.
Em Schulz: Aha! I like that. Uh, she not only knew about conversations though, she also knew where missing items were in other rooms and what was going on outside of the convent, even though she never left the convent.
Christine Schiefer: These are the superpowers you and I would dream of, like, being able to overhear conversations and, like, finding all the shit that I lose.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. It's...
Christine Schiefer: Like, that's all we need in life.
Em Schulz: It's, uh, it's... You know, it kinda feels like the fasting girls episode that I did, with Mollie Fancher and they...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, where she could read through a letter, like it... She knew what it said?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, yes, 100%.
Em Schulz: Uh, that was episode 321, if anyone wants to listen to it.
Christine Schiefer: How do you remember that?
Em Schulz: Huh?
Christine Schiefer: How do you remember what episode it was?
Em Schulz: 'Cause I looked it up on our episode guide on our website.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you just kind of had the thought, like, huh, that reminds me of that one thing from episode 321. I was like, Jesus.
Em Schulz: Oh, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was so impressed.
Em Schulz: I mean, I have a Rolodex in my mind that's just constantly flipping.
Christine Schiefer: But Eucharist kicked right out of there.
Em Schulz: Kicked right out. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So her reputation grew outside of Spain, and while she continued daily self-flagellations, uh, and having frequent visions, she's still fasting. She hasn't eaten since, like, three days before her communion, or three months before her communion.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: And now she's 17, maybe older. She claimed that she no longer needed to eat because she was sustained by the Eucharist alone.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Soon her vision started having, uh, started leading to glimpses into the future. So it wasn't just visions of things happening in other areas in the present...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool.
Em Schulz: She was now able to see the future. Uh, one example is that she was able to predict the death of a king, and she also was able to predict a cardinal coming to power.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And people started writing to her for prayers and advice about the future. Even wealthy people were sending her generous donations and gifts. Umm, it made her convent the richest in Spain...
Christine Schiefer: Dang.
Em Schulz: And fun fact, this is a quote, uh, "King of Spain, Charles V and Queen Elizabeth asked for a piece of her habit to wrap around their own expected baby, Prince Philip II, to give him the assistance of a living saint from birth to envelop him in divine grace."
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? [laughter] That is also the longest request ever.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] And so...
Christine Schiefer: For a piece of cloth.
Em Schulz: So even royals are saying like, please, like, can we have a relic of yours?
Christine Schiefer: Bless my child.
Em Schulz: And keep my kids safe.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Uh, royals, again, were sending gifts and asking for prayers. Even the Pope was looking to her for prayers, which like, you might as well...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Be the Pope at that point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly, step aside.
Em Schulz: She also was looked up to in decision making for the diocese, which obviously no other nun was expected to do. And March 25th, 1518, she told the abbess, which is like the convent mother.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Abbess, abbess? Abbess, uh, she told the abbess that she had miraculously...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: Conceived a son.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: The son of Jesus. And she was pregnant with a holy child.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. I did not see this coming, like, even a little bit. You just shocked me.
Em Schulz: Ir... Ironically, this day, March 25th, 1518 was the Feast Day of the Annunciation, AKA...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: The day Mary found out... Oh! *Whispering* Christine, you went away. Christine. Christine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Did the last one save?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait.
Em Schulz: Welcome... No.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit, did it save? Em, I'm gonna scream. I don't even know what happened. Em, I'm gonna scream. Well, at least our audio is saved, right?
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like, our episode saved.
Em Schulz: I mean, we're recording locally, audio.
Christine Schiefer: This is, like, such a mess.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So we'll just put, like a... Like a fun picture up or something for the time we've lost.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we'll put a stigmata pic... A picture of stigmata up or something. Umm, wow. Okay. We're back. I don't know what happened, the... My browser just, like, fucking closed and it didn't save our video.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This is like, I swear...
Em Schulz: So the part where I'm saying, hopefully we look better than we ever have on YouTube, it's just gonna be a black fucking picture. [laughter]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So you're like, if you're watching on YouTube, we look crystal clear. [laughter] So embarrassing.
Em Schulz: [sigh] Oh, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry, I don't even know what I did. I don't know. I'm sorry...
Em Schulz: I think is 'cause we keep like, talking trash about Jesus or something.
Christine Schiefer: I literally think...
Em Schulz: It's got to be.
Christine Schiefer: That somebody's mad at us is what I think. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's got to be.
Christine Schiefer: This is so mortifying. I'm sorry everybody. And I'm sorry, Jack, we... We owe you, umm, we're gonna buy you a case of beer for this one.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Something, whatever you need. Umm, wild. I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not touching anything.
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm, where were we? Oh, she is announcing, she's conceived a holy child with Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: I think I was so shaken that like I... I overrode my own internet connection and just like shut my computer down. [laughter] Like that really shook me to my core, that announcement you made.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: And it was a Feast of the Annunciation.
Em Schulz: So, yeah. So, umm, March 25th, 1518, ironically is the day of the Feast Day of the Annunciation, which is when Mary found out she was pregnant with a holy child.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So, of course, happy anniversary. Now we've got another generation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God, Mary is a grandma.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, this is so fucked up.
Em Schulz: So now she is pregnant and the abbess was... And I hope I'm saying abbess right, I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: I think you are. I think you are.
Em Schulz: I'm new to a lot of phrases. Uh, the abbess was real worried about this coming out because half the convent actually believed her and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh oh.
Em Schulz: The other half thought she had just broken her chastity and was hiding behind her power.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, three midwives, gross, examined her and say that her, gross, virginity was still intact.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Thus it must be a true immaculate conception and anyone who doubted her has to give penance. So that's...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'll give some penance, I guess 'cause I don't fucking believe it.
Em Schulz: The ultimate gaslighting.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right?
Em Schulz: So, fun fact, during her pregnancy, Magdalena got more serious about her penances.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Because whipping herself and fasting and never letting wounds heal was not enough. She began while pregnant, walking on broken glass.
Christine Schiefer: Like, hello, now there's a baby to care for, stop hurting Jesus's baby.
Em Schulz: And you know, she is, umm, walking on broken glass and then not letting the wounds heal properly. So.
Christine Schiefer: Goddamn, this is disturbing.
Em Schulz: Christmas Eve arrives, of course they knew on the day when this baby might be coming.
Christine Schiefer: They gotta share a birthday.
Em Schulz: Gotta. Christmas Eve arrives and Magdalena prepares for giving birth soon, but she does it interestingly in a house with no witnesses.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And she claims that she needed to do this on her own without any medical help because, quote, "it was more"... It was important to suffer more" So she's saying like, oh, it's penance again. It's penance.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck. This is like... She's so mentally ill. This is horrible.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So three days later she comes out and says that she did in fact give birth to a son who shined so bright that the house lit up like daytime. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And yet no one saw through the windows a shining situation.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, true.
Em Schulz: Umm, she said during those three days that her usually black hair turned into blonde ringlets.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: She said that she swaddled the baby in her blonde ringlets. She said that she wanted to cut some of them off as a keepsake umm, but when she woke up, her hair was black again and the baby was gone. And we should just all be okay with that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: A missing holy child.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Now I feel like your brain is going true crime real quick. Umm, but...
Christine Schiefer: No it's not.
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's going mental illness.
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. 'Cause I didn't want you to think that like, oh, she did have a baby and killed it.
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't think that part...
Em Schulz: That's not where this...
Christine Schiefer: Really happened. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, she did show... Well, apparently people saw signs of her actually being pregnant. I'm wondering if there was like a belly or something.
Christine Schiefer: A pillow.
Em Schulz: Mm. Or it could be like...
Christine Schiefer: People fake pregnancies. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Or it could be like, I didn't know I was pregnant and she's just somehow rocked the... The skinny look. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know, so I don't know. I don't know what she told people.
Christine Schiefer: Well, she's wearing these big modest outfits, you know, I don't think it would be like...
Em Schulz: You're totally right. She could have stuffed her tummy.
Christine Schiefer: Right. I'm just saying.
Em Schulz: Uh, let's see. So, what.
Christine Schiefer: Or there is a... Such thing as a hysterical pregnancy.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Where like, you, you believe you're pregnant and your body actually shows signs of pregnancy and that's like more common than you think. So that could be if she really believed it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, she really believed she also gave birth to a baby who vanished and her hair went from black to blonde to black. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that should tell us all we need to know, I think.
Em Schulz: But she did show signs of having recently given birth and...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Of recently breastfeeding. So she had like, her chest was chapped.
Christine Schiefer: What? The fuck.
Em Schulz: And looked really swollen. Midwives again, gross, examined her and... And I say gross not because like an examination is gross.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, what's that gross. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Because like I'm sure they're go... They're... It's violating when it's unneeded especially like to see if her virginity was intact and stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That part was definitely gross for sure.
Em Schulz: But anyway, they do an examination on her and say that she has just gone through birth. Her body is showing full signs of having just gone through birth.
Christine Schiefer: What in the world?
Em Schulz: The curls that she cut off are considered to be relics by some.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought she didn't get to cut them off.
Em Schulz: I think she cut them off like kind of à la Tangled Rapunzel where like once it was cut the magic went away.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: That's what I'm guessing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So she did cut some curls off and they're considered to be relics, umm, but others started doubting that any of this was genuine. I wonder why.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they tested her by waiting until she went into another ecstasy and putting needles in her hands and feet.
Christine Schiefer: God, I was waiting for the needles to come back.
Em Schulz: She actually did not move, so they thought that was weird. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But she walks on broken glass for a living.
Em Schulz: That's true. She's so used to pain at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Like, hello? She could probably just ignore it.
Em Schulz: So she was locked away... This was another test they did. She was locked away with guards for 24 hours to fast. And somehow she appeared in the garden.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like, and she claims that St. Francis teleported her. [chuckle] She had to have used a different word because there's no way she knew the word teleport.
Christine Schiefer: Teleported. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In the 1500s.
Christine Schiefer: His hoverboard arrived at my window. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, umm... But I mean, anyone could argue that maybe she paid off a guard or she said like, "I am a prophet, you have to listen to me." And then she just...
Christine Schiefer: Or she climbed out the window.
Em Schulz: Or she climbed out the window.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but they tried locking her away to the best of their ability and the guards denied ever letting her out.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And she appeared in the garden, obviously teleporting.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And when a spot opened for abbess when the last one was retiring.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Magdalena pretty quickly became the new abbess. And a very cruel one because remember she loves her penance.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. I didn't even think about it being on other people.
Em Schulz: She began demanding intense penance on the nuns. She would...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: She switched out the whips so they would've iron tips. She...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And she began to make them crawl on the floor, uh, and lick other nuns shoes in the shape of the cross.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So this is just like now becoming a very abusive situation, not just toward herself, but now other people. This is just disturbing.
Em Schulz: This is another quote. Uh, this is from The Baffler, which I sure am baffled.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Written by us.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It says, "They were encouraged to wear crowns of thorns and belts with spikes pointing inward to kneel on nail studded boards to stretch out on the floor and to have other nuns walk over them."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: She was known now as Mother Magdalena, as the convent mother. And she said she, by the way, everyone else still had to, but she no longer had to attend confession because I guess God told her that she didn't have to. And that she was recently experiencing souls from purgatory appearing before her and confessing to her. And if souls were coming to her for confession in lieu...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Of God, then all of the nuns need to confess to her instead of priests. AKA...
Christine Schiefer: I mean... My literal... Yeah.
Em Schulz: So she can control their penance.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And, and my literal next thought before you said it was, okay, so she's God now in her own mind because she doesn't have to confess to God.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then people are confessing to her...
Em Schulz: And others were confessing to her.
Christine Schiefer: So she's kind of... God is not needed in this equation anymore. She cut out the middle man.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Just confess to me. And, Uh...
Em Schulz: In which case, why do you need penance? Unless it's...
Christine Schiefer: And that's so controlling too, to be like everybody in the... In the place has to tell me what's going on and what they did.
Em Schulz: You know, what's particularly sick is that if she's now giving them intense penance and she's acting as God, she gets to pick their horrible penance and it's for her, not for God. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. True. Like she's determining it so it's...
Em Schulz: Like I won't forgive you until you do this.
Christine Schiefer: You're seeking my forgiveness.
Em Schulz: Not God's.
Christine Schiefer: So kneel on this gla... Oh God, that's so upsetting.
Em Schulz: Despite support from nobles, dignitaries, and high clergymen, the nuns in her convent were scared shitless of her.
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: And would obviously lie to avoid trouble.
Christine Schiefer: Good. I was like, did they have to... Because they're nuns. It's like you're stuck at this point. You're like, I don't wanna lie. Like that's a sin.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh. Okay. I'm glad they at least...
Em Schulz: I like to... I like to think there was like a secret club or something.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Where they were like, let's... When she's not around, we have to like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Actually figure this out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We can confess to each other or like to real God, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So she seemed to give worse punishments to those she did not like, quelle surprise.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Shocking. Quelle surprise [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Like Sister Isabella who ran against her for abbess.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: She also turned down girls coming to the convent for random reasons.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And then she started getting petty with her visions. One example was that, uh, she had a vision, looked at one of the sisters and said, "The holy virgin has appeared to me and led me about the quarters last night. And she smiled at you sister." But then she would look at a nun she didn't like and say, "But she only gave you a long look of scorn."
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So it's like only... The holy virgin only kind of is okay with you as I am.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's so weird how they mirror, but she is my mother-in-law. So, you know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We just wanna keep our relationship friendly and close.
Em Schulz: I... I did have a baby with her son, so you know, we're... You know, I see her for Thanksgiving. That's about it. It's not that serious.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. TBD on where the baby is. Umm, but you know, yeah. I'm sure it's...
Em Schulz: He... He flew away like a dove or something.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure it's fine. Yeah. Check the rafters.
Em Schulz: Potentially out of fear Magdalena was still reelected as abbess two more times.
Christine Schiefer: She probably rigged the fucking votes or she probably... Whatever. Yeah. Least surprising thing ever.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And when Isabella finally did beat her eventually and became abbess, she made Magdalena lick the floors in the shape of a cross.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So go Isabella.
Christine Schiefer: Has there not been a BBC like snappy, uh, dramedy about this? Like, I wanna watch this.
Em Schulz: I wanna watch Isabella finally get hers. And she said, I waited a long time, but one two three, let's go bitch. Lick the floors.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. But she said, uno dos tres and then.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Vamonos puta.
Christine Schiefer: We have Magda licking the floor.
Em Schulz: So now that, uh, she was off of her high throne as the abbess, the other nuns began to ignore her visions and ecstasies because she no longer could give them... Make them do anything.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they used to help like bring her to bed when she was having one of her like visions. But now they would just leave her on the floor. Umm, and then some of the nuns found a box of wafers under her bed.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So, uh, she was... She had this, I guess act where during some of her ecstasies, she would like manifest magically this Eucharist wafer.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: And now that they found a box of them under her bed, they're like, okay, this doesn't seem like they were so manifested as you just had it in your pocket.
Christine Schiefer: Oh dear.
Em Schulz: Umm, in 1543, Magdalena got sick. And when a priest came to take her final confession, she went into ecstasies again. Of course. Probably to avoid having to confess anything.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: And the priest said that her eyes moved around wildly, which indicated a fake ecstasy.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] He's like, I've seen this one before.
Em Schulz: And just in case he decided to do the needle thing again and he was gonna poke her with... When she went into another bout of this, and she did not react. But interestingly, she did react while her eyes were closed and didn't know this was happening. He dipped the needles in holy water and then tried stabbing her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And that's when she reacted and she freaked out.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? That's freaking weird.
Em Schulz: First of all, not sterile. They're dipped in holy water. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: That is... That's sterile, right? Isn't it?
Em Schulz: Are they sterile? Isn't there like a little...
Christine Schiefer: Miraculous.
Em Schulz: A little oil in that?
Christine Schiefer: Well, it's like a... From God, right? So...
Em Schulz: Oh, so like, not scientifically sterile. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: No, of course not scientifically. But who needs that?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But who cares about that?
Christine Schiefer: But who needs that?
Em Schulz: So she's... Freaks out when the holy water needles are touching her, and this is when he says, "Oh, she must be possessed." And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he's like, oh, it's been a devil this whole time. Cool.
Em Schulz: This whole time. Uh, she must be, must be. And the next few weeks she does seem to often be writhing. This is a quote, "writhing in convulsions and speaking blasphemies." Mother Isabella she... I'm surprised she even gives a shit.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: She should be like, you know what? You can rot. But Mother Isabella calls an experienced priest and orders the demon to say its name. And this is when Magdalena laughs maniacally and says there's a demon in her named Balban. Balban. And when they begin a formal exorcism, another demon called Patorrio says that he's also there. So there's been...
Christine Schiefer: I'm here too. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So there's a little ragtag duo inside of her.
Christine Schiefer: There's Bon Bon and Pinocchio.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, who else?
Em Schulz: So the demons, they say that she... When she was 5 years old, made a deal with the devil...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: When she saw the beautiful man at church who everyone thought was Jesus. It was actually Satan.
Christine Schiefer: Pfft. Okay.
Em Schulz: And he promised her fame for her obedience. So that's how we got where we are today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's intriguing. I did not... This is a plot twist.
Em Schulz: Well, I told you there was a little bit of an exorcism here, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So yeah, apparently the beautiful man was never Jesus. It was Satan all along. And they said that it was because at 5 years old, she was in fact a very good religious girl, but they wanted to, quote, "ruin one of God's favorites."
Christine Schiefer: That's so... That's so fucked up.
Em Schulz: AKA, all of her visions were never from God. They were always of the devil.
Christine Schiefer: Oh dear.
Em Schulz: Another quote from the Baffler. During this exorcism, the Baffler says, "The inquisitor made the sign of the cross over her, and she rolled on the floor striking indecent poses and mimicking the vile copulations that she had performed with Balban for nearly 40 years. The cries of ecstasy that the nuns had heard so often coming from the cell were the sounds of this satanic lovemaking. It was Balban who secretly fed her all the years when she claimed to eat nothing but a communion wafer. Her pregnancy was a cruel joke they had played on the nuns and the clergy. She was impregnated with a monstrous caterpillar, which escaped from her body with a loud wind that came from that famous Christmas night before changing into Balban himself and repossessing her with unprecedented vigor."
Christine Schiefer: I think I'm higher than I thought.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What the actual fuck did you just say to me?
Em Schulz: That's why I didn't try to change any of it. I was like I'm just...
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm so glad you just fucking rolled with it 'cause my jaw was on the fucking floor and then caterpillar and I couldn't even hold it in anymore.
Em Schulz: From beginning to end. So apparently she has been sleeping with this demon since she was 5 years old.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking hell.
Em Schulz: And she... During the exorcism started positioning herself in ways that mimic the... What she had been doing with the demon for the last 40 years.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: They... Everyone realized the screams they had heard... Her ecstasies were actually a different type of ecstasy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you know what I'm saying. And the pregnancy was never a holy child. It was, as you said, a caterpillar. [laughter] And then the caterpillar was born and turned into the demon who then repossessed her. So he was in her, then he got out of her, then he went back in her.
Christine Schiefer: Oooh. Okay, this is just horrifying.
Em Schulz: Caterpillar, are you fucking kidding me? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Caterpillar, like really? There wasn't anything mother animal she could think of.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also, I guess if we're like totally looking at this warped story, it would make sense why she felt the need to do so much penance, because it was actually the demons torturing her from the inside out.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And they're like... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. It's like, yeah, you'll be famous, but you'll be fucking miserable the whole time.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So Magdalena was eventually fully exorcised and ended up going to court. I don't know what she was sued for, but I guess for...
Christine Schiefer: I would sue her for probably a number of things at this point.
Em Schulz: I don't know if it was for like the assaults that she had committed as... And called them penance. I don't know if it was for fraud.
Christine Schiefer: Probably not. That was probably allowed. It was probably something different, honestly.
Em Schulz: All I know is they like sent her away from the convent and they had the courts deal with her, and the courts pretty much decided that they said a possessed person... So they're really running with like, "Oh, she was possessed."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: They... That wasn't even up for debate. They said, "Oh, well you were possessed and the only way that we know that you wouldn't be possessed anymore is if you could confess." Basically a possessed person could only confess if they were truly exorcised, implying that they were genuinely repenting. And because she was at church and telling her side of the story, they considered that a confession.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And due to all this and her age, which is now like 60, they sentenced her to... This was her punishment for everything she's ever done to people. This was her punishment. Quote, "To stand on a scaffold for an afternoon with a cord around her neck, a gag in her mouth, and a candle in her hand for everyone to see her repenting. She was forbidden to wear a black veil for three months and she had to walk last everywhere when in a group."
Christine Schiefer: Pfft.
Em Schulz: Which like the social anxiety of that last one is real.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But like I had to do that when I was little and I didn't fucking do anything wrong. It was just, you know...
Em Schulz: I always ended up last in a group on the sidewalk, but...
Christine Schiefer: Me too!
Em Schulz: I was always that person who walked on the grass and not the sidewalk.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Of course you were. [laughter] Least surprising thing ever.
Em Schulz: But apparently that's a full religious court decided punishment.
Christine Schiefer: Punishment.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean they couldn't even Snapchat that back then. Like what's the...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: What's the point? Like you get to entertain yourself for... See her up there...
Em Schulz: An afternoon.
Christine Schiefer: You don't even get a photo of it.
Em Schulz: And a... After that afternoon, I guess she was moved back to a different convent where like, if you don't ever leave the convent, you don't even have to worry about walking on a sidewalk in a group or whatever It was.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She ended up in 1560 at 74. She, uh, died after moving to a different convent. And today she is an example to be skeptical about divine experiences...
Christine Schiefer: The inquisitor made the sign of the cross over her, and she rolled on the floor striking indecent poses and mimicking the vile copulations that she had performed with Balban for nearly 40 years.
Em Schulz: Because... Not because of mental health awareness.
Christine Schiefer: No sure of course.
Em Schulz: But because of the devil. Because the devil is so good at tricking you into thinking something.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's disturbing. 'cause remember at the beginning I was like, oh, if she were anyone else, this would've been a witch trial instead. And like right after that, the witch shit started happening.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm...
Christine Schiefer: So it's like an interesting little segue.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That they're like, oh, it's the devil is in her. Oh my God. Em, what a wild tale.
Em Schulz: I know. So a lot of people believe that, I guess her case was legit. But I mean, there were some things that never got explained and like seemed a little hard to wrap your head around, but...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So a lot of people do allege she was truly demonically possessed. Other people think that...
Christine Schiefer: Dear God.
Em Schulz: Maybe she was just mentally ill. I am one of those people.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.I would... I would probably agree with you on that one, or at least it's most likely. But what a story I... Like, I had no fucking clue and they were a lot of plot twists. I... Like...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: I did not see the pregnancy coming. I did not see like, oh my God, was it...
Em Schulz: The caterpillar?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. The caterpillar's on another level that was like not a plot twist. That was like a fucking plot tornado.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Just like caterpillar. What baby cater... Demonic caterpillar. It's very... It's a lot. Uh, wow. Good job.
Em Schulz: Did you have fun?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think so, except for all the times that like, I fucked up our recording, so.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well hey, we could still do it again. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's only two and a half hours into our recording session, so [laughter], umm, if that tells you anything folks, like, I don't know what the audio's at right now, but, umm it's been a while.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's gonna be a... It's... It's... It's a lot.
Christine Schiefer: I have a good one for you today, Em.
Em Schulz: I'm ready.
Christine Schiefer: This is the story of The Lady of the Dunes.
Em Schulz: I don't know what that is.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Okay. I thought you might, because it's a Massachusetts story.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so we're going to P-Town, Provincetown. You know it?
Em Schulz: I know it not well, but I know it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, [laughter], we're just acquaintances. Umm.
Em Schulz: We... We've met at a party once or twice, but that's about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Umm, so it's awesome. I've been there. It's known for being like very gay and just like a fun fucking time. Umm...
Em Schulz: That's all you had to say. Sign me up.
Christine Schiefer: I know, man. Well, I thought maybe like... I thought maybe you knew of it. Umm, but I've been there. It is a delight. Uh, you should go folks if you have not. Umm, it's on the tip of Cape Cod in Massachusetts, but way back in the day before it had a really great pride, etcetera. Umm, it was a whaling and fishing town, so...
Em Schulz: Ooh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it had its origins, uh, much like probably a lot of other small towns on the East Coast. It was a whaling and fishing town that saw a lot of hard times. But by 1916, this is where we see the shift, it began to shift into a thriving art community with painters, writers, actors flocking there every summer. Umm, many of these artists and creators were gay and the town became known as a place where the LGBTQ+ community could gather, you know, as like a safe haven almost, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Precious.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yep. In the '50s and '60s, police tried to shut down drag shows and gay bars. Good thing that's in the past. Oh wait. Uh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Pffft.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But business owners fought back, uh, because these laws, well they weren't good, but also they were hurting tourism. So it was like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know, let's support the gay people 'cause they bring us money [laughter], which... Whatever path we gotta take, I guess. Umm...
Em Schulz: Rainbow capitalism baby.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Rainbow capitalism. Exactly, exactly. So Provincetown kept blossoming and then in the '70s it became like... Just like a summer party destination. And it does have a year-round population, which is very low. So it's about 3000 barely.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but at... In the summer, this... Their population can jump to 60,000.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: From 3000 to 60,000.
Em Schulz: That's... I'm, I'm trying to do math and I don't even know why. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: That is...
Em Schulz: That's...
Christine Schiefer: All I know is that it's 57,000 tourists.
Em Schulz: That's...
Christine Schiefer: Coming to town in a day or like, you know, in one period of time.
Em Schulz: What is that like 22 times the amount of people that are usually there? Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: My... Yeah, a lot. A lot. Umm, so a lot of people, you know, come and go through this area through its history as an LGBTQ+ safe haven. It's been highly valued for being kind of secluded and a little bit anonymous and, uh, that kind of anonymous culture sheltered many people from discrimination. There were other... The other side of that coin, I guess, is that, uh, people exploited that anonymity. In other words, it could be easier to get away with crimes in a place like this because you're a stranger and people respect your privacy because, you know, there are people here who have been discriminated against for being queer or other or different. And so, you know, they're... They're trying to give everybody their own solace. But some people take advantage of that and commit crimes knowing that...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: They can get away with it.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So on July 26th, of 1974, a 12-year-old girl was hiking with her family a little east of Race Point Beach when she spotted the body of a woman lying face down in the dunes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The woman was in a dense thicket of scrub pines and her body had been there for nearly two weeks under the summer sun.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And was badly decomposed.
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah. And I don't know how hot it gets there, but the summer for two weeks is all I really need to hear. And like also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. By the ocean.
Em Schulz: By the water, Uh-huh?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the woman was naked, her head was resting on a pair of her own Wrangler brand jeans, sort of like she was sunbathing.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and... And, a blue bandana was down there as well. And she was lying on a beach blanket. So it was almost as if she had been... Actually the girl, uh, thought that this woman was asleep at first.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, from a distance because she was so still, and she was lying as... As though she were like, sunbathing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately that, uh, illusion was quickly shattered because her head was crushed.
Em Schulz: Holy crap!
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Crushed?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. So...
Em Schulz: Like could it have hit a rock on the ocean or something?
Christine Schiefer: So, no, she was up in the dunes, so she was...
Em Schulz: Oh, right. And she was sunbathing.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah. She appeared to have been sunbathing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So basically her... Let me just... I'll just give you the facts here. She had suffered severe head trauma, her face was crushed and she had been nearly decapitated.
Em Schulz: Holy shit!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh...
Em Schulz: So, I also think... And also I'm gonna use my context clues and because you keep saying appeared to have been sunbathing, uh, I feel like maybe she was placed that way because there's no way you just get casually decapitated and you don't... And you're just lying there and letting it happen.
Christine Schiefer: Very interesting. Because there is definitely a debate about that.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So yes, you're onto it.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You've read the context clues properly. Good job.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so she had also been strangled, uh, but the cause of death was ruled as blunt force trauma and the blow to her head was so severe. Like I said, her skull had been crushed.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: There were also signs of sexual trauma.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Of course. She had been penetrated with a wooden object after her death.
Em Schulz: [gasp] And you know, the only way they knew that was because there might have been splinters.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: That's so horrible. That's so horrible.
Christine Schiefer: Thats horrific. It's horrific. So the weird part is, which is basically what you just alluded to, there was no, no, and I mean, zero sign of a struggle at all.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It seemed like she didn't fight back at all. Even the pine needles, like next to her body were undisturbed.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Like everything was just completely placid. Investigators believe she knew her killer and that she was asleep when someone came up behind her.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And attacked her and bashed in her skull.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So I guess this is where I say that is the theory of among people who believe that she was sunbathing in that spot and that she was just asleep or just didn't see it coming.
Em Schulz: Right. For her to not move at all and show any struggle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. For her to have no reaction whatsoever. Umm, so that's the theory. But then some people, kind of what you said think like, well, she must have been placed there 'cause there's zero sign of a disturbance at all. So it's kind of debated.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Especially, I would say that currently because if you're gonna decapitate a person and there's no like, significant pools of blood anywhere.
Christine Schiefer: So there was blood.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just...
Em Schulz: By the time people got there, it was gone or?
Christine Schiefer: You know that, I... I wonder if that's part of it. I think also everything just seemed so contained that it was like that... Exactly. Some people are with you and are like, there's no way this happened right here.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it's... It's... It's unclear. So you... You are onto something that, that's a point of contention.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, among people. It gets worse because her hands had been cut off, uh, at the wrists.
Em Schulz: Oof. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: And presumably to remove fingerprint evidence and erase her identity. And on that note, might as well make it worse. The killer also removed her teeth.
Em Schulz: Oh. Yep. Dental records.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And that just goes to show in my mind someone knew what they were doing.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or at least... Yeah, sure. Knew what they were doing.
Christine Schiefer: I mean this is the time before forensic files and all that. So it's like.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's not necessarily common knowledge, you know, unless you are in the criminal circles [chuckle] where you know to remove someone's teeth after you murder them. You know.
Em Schulz: I wonder if that was why the near decapitation happened. Like they were just trying to get rid of the whole head.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And they just... Like, it ended up being too difficult so they couldn't get through it. So then they... Plan B was remove the teeth.
Christine Schiefer: You know what? I wonder if that's part of it, but even if... Yeah, true.
Em Schulz: 'Cause if they're taking... If they're not getting rid of the fingers, they're just getting rid of the whole goddamn hand.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Maybe not get rid of the teeth, but get rid of the whole goddamn face. 'Cause the face could also have been identified... Identifiable.
Christine Schiefer: True. But they did kind of bash her face in.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Like they did... They did attack her face. And I think that probably is what they were trying to do is, I don't know about the de... That you... You might be right on that, that that was part of their plan originally. Umm, so yeah, it's all just so... I mean it's horrific. It really is. Umm, and so, you know, she'd been there for two weeks. Obviously her body had been like brutally assaulted and so it was just almost... It was impossible to identify her, to figure out who this person was. So they tried to trace their... The police tried to trace any tips they could to construct an identity because how are you supposed to find the killer if you don't even know who was killed?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So. What they determined about this woman, she was White, roughly five foot six, a hundred forty five pounds, and could have been anywhere between 25 and 35 years old. She had red hair and her toenails were painted pink.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: There's something about those details that are like, so intimate and like.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It says more about her personality.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And like about like what they were doing and, ugh. So a dental...
Em Schulz: Also a friend... Oh, sorry, sorry. Go head.
Christine Schiefer: No, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say like, also pink fingernails. It's like, you know she was fun and like you know she was like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, and she's like going to the beach, you know it's... There's something so dark and twisted about that specific detail.
Em Schulz: It's sad.
Christine Schiefer: A dental forensics examiner painstakingly pieced the pieces of her skull and teeth, the remaining teeth back together.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In an attempt to like create, uh, like a facial reconstruction of her, they were able to determine she had seven gold crowns on her teeth. And at the time, in the mid '70s, this would've been around $8,000 worth of dental work.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So basically this is someone well off, or who has been treated well off in the past.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately, despite being such a gruesome and brutal murder in like what's considered a very safe place, there were zero leads.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the entire region like took off with this story. So one journalist named Steve Desrochest said in a documentary on the case, "At its core, it's an unsolved crime, but over the years in Provincetown, it's sort of taken on, I guess you'd call it almost a ghost story. One thing you have to understand about life out here is that everything gets romanticized and mythology can take over very quickly."
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: This woman became the Lady of the Dunes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: News of her vicious killing went global. Everyone wanted to know who she was, but no one came forward with any missing persons reports. They... They like scoured the area for any matching, missing persons reports. Not a single one matched. And keep in mind it was tourist season, peak of the summer. You're getting tens of thousands of strangers from all over the world coming here.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She could have been anyone.
Christine Schiefer: So she could be anyone from anywhere. And same goes for the killer. Like that person could have been...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anyone from anywhere.
Em Schulz: I mean they could have like even known each other and been on vacation together.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And like one left.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like there's no way to knew if she even knew the person. So a forensic anthropologist attempted to create a 3D facial reconstruction with clay and police were able to release sketches of what she may have looked like when alive. There was one detective named James Meads, and he was determined to follow every single lead. He followed up on thousands of phone calls from people who thought maybe their daughter, their sister, their friend was the missing Lady of the Dunes. He had people for years send in dental records trying to match them to the teeth that they had of the Lady of the Dunes. But not one ever matched. He would go on television, he out... Outside of work would go and report on national magazines trying to ask for tips. He traveled around the country personally on his own dime to follow up on leads, like this was his case.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: He also contacted thousands of dentists hoping someone would have records of this very expensive at the time, dental work.
Em Schulz: I mean, that's a smart move. That's the best play to... To have is like.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: We know how much this would've cost. It's...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause it narrows it down significantly.
Em Schulz: Significantly. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So every lead, despite all of its hard work, led to a dead end. Detective Meads had the victim's body buried in a cemetery under a grave marker that read unknown female, which is like not quite romanticized, but, ya know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He actually kept her skull as evidence to continue comparing dental records to missing persons. And he kept it close by as a reminder to keep working on this case diligently, nonstop. So in 1980, investigators exhumed the woman's body to take blood samples. You know, it's been half a decade. They're like, maybe we have furthered our technology. We can... We can get some more clues. Their hope was to match her blood type, uh, to that of a missing person.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, they got the blood samples no matches. Seven years later, which is now 13 years after the murder, in 1987, a woman in her early 20s called from Canada, called Detective Meads, with a bizarre report. She said she remembered seeing her father... This is wild. She remembers seeing her father strangle a woman in Provincetown when she was a child.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Strangle and kill?
Christine Schiefer: I believe so.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And she believed maybe this woman was the Lady of the Dunes because they would spend time in P-Town and that's where this happened. Her memory.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But this woman... So this was like one of the biggest leads they had. This woman ended up moving and never contacted police again, and they could never find her.
Em Schulz: Oh, what?
Christine Schiefer: And so this was... I know. So this was just like this lead that...
Em Schulz: She must have gotten freaked out or felt guilty or something.
Christine Schiefer: It makes you wonder and like sure, it's the '80s, so maybe she moved and she like changed the phone number and it was hard to track her down. Or you know maybe there was some... You're right, like maybe her dad was still alive and she was being threatened, or maybe she retracted her story. Who knows. But in any case, she never... They could never find her and she never reached back out to police. So this was like a big big big big dead end.
Christine Schiefer: The trail unfortunately went cold, even though tips kept rolling in, but investigators didn't give up. Umm, of course the town of Provincetown largely moved on, but the Lady of the Dunes became almost like a folkloric, like a mythical figure. And people would grow up hearing her story and contemplating who this could be. And I mean, just the mystery of like not knowing who this like beautiful young woman is, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's obviously like captivated people. Detective Meads was like still as go get him, uh, till the day he retired. But at a certain point he realized he had to accept that he might never solve this murder. And, you know, he retired and his only hope was that another detective would step in and care as much as he did.
Em Schulz: Is there?
Christine Schiefer: Is there what?
Em Schulz: Uh, did... Did anyone show up, anyone who is dedicated.
Christine Schiefer: No, We'll... We'll see. We'll see.
Em Schulz: And her name was Christine Schiefer.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I wish, I wish I were making big waves like that in the world. But, umm... Or anywhere else.
Em Schulz: The day that you tell me that, uh, you're like covering an episode and you're like, by the way I cracked the goddamn case. This is episode one where I actually figured it out before anyone else. I'd believe it. I wouldn't even be like...
Christine Schiefer: That... That's the best part. You literally thought I could text an entire stadium of people just on a whim, [laughter] like individually text all of them. So I... I don't doubt that I have your full support no matter what I tell you.
Em Schulz: If you told me you solved a... A murder, I'd be like, "Well, that was kind of destined to happen." Huh? You know.
Christine Schiefer: What if I told you I was pregnant with the devil's baby?
Em Schulz: Also? I mean, I would have at least three questions [laughter], but I would... It wouldn't take much.
Christine Schiefer: Not if it were...
Em Schulz: Other people... Other people, it would... May... They'd maybe have 10 questions, you know? So.
Christine Schiefer: But you just have a couple clarity... Clarifying questions and then you're on board.
Em Schulz: I would just be like, sure...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Of course.
Em Schulz: I couldn't... I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Quelle surprise...
Em Schulz: How did I not see this coming?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Quelle surprise. So in 2000, uh, the Lady of the Dunes body was exhumed again. And this time it was to take DNA samples, because we've fast forwarded through forensic science...
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: And now we can test DNA. A woman in Colorado at that time believed the Lady of the Dunes was her daughter who had actually escaped prison in Plymouth, Massachusetts and had gone missing in 1974, the year that the Lady of the Dunes had died.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they took a saliva saliva sample from her to see if there was a match to the body and they weren't related. So this... This specific, uh, lead was a dead end, but they were now able to use this DNA in the future if anybody else came forward and said, you know, I think I know who this is. So, unfortunately, and I say unfortunately, because I don't know, it just must be... It's just tough to hear that they exhumed her a third time in 2013. It's almost like.
Em Schulz: Give it up.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No. Like, just let her rest, let her rest.
Christine Schiefer: That's the... That's the thing is like, you know, they're doing it to try and give her like a proper burial and identity. So it's like, of course I want them to... But it's like... It's like heartbreaking every time they dig her up again, you know, and then it's like she's not resting. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is what it feels like...
Em Schulz: Like. It's like what Jesus said, like, fucking relax.
Christine Schiefer: Chill out. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But no. But like, I want... You know, I want them to... To keep working toward this. Yeah. It's just like, it's hard to hear. So meanwhile, you know, we're now in the internet age in the 2010s, and people are launching their own investigations. People are writing books about the case. They're speculating in forums about who the Lady of the Dunes could be. Some people actually believe she was an immigrant from Ireland who got caught up in some human trafficking scheme in Provincetown.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: But also James "Whitey" Bulger, you know him?
Em Schulz: No. Should I?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, yes! He's like one of the most famous, like Boston Mafiosos, "Whitey" Bulger. Yeah, kind of ring a bell?
Em Schulz: I... I feel like the name Whitey is a classic like mob name, but I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Well, he's like a... He's like a top... Tip, top of the top crime boss situation.
Em Schulz: Okay. Tip top of the top. Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And he frequented Provincetown in the '70s.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he was a notorious mobster from Boston. Uh, he was spotted several times in local bars in Pro... P-Town, and some people believed that he could have been linked to the killing, especially with like cutting off the hands, removing the teeth.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like apparently that was a thing that he did. And it was like to hide the identity. So, you know, it wouldn't be that shocking. Umm, and investigators couldn't prove that there was a link between Whitey Bulger and this victim, but it... It... It's a theory. In 2013, Whitey Bulger was arrested after a life of crime. He had been convicted of 11 murders, was given two life sentences. He was a... A bad dude. Umm, and he didn't go to prison till his 80s. So, you know, he lived out...
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: A majority of his life, just the way he fucking wanted as a villain. Uh, and then in his 80s, he actually went to prison and was beaten to death by other inmates.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So detectives on the Lady of the Dunes case acknowledged they were running out of time to charge someone with her murder because whoever did it would either be very old or dead by this point. You know, it's been so many decades. They hoped maybe Whitey Bulger or someone would make like a deathbed confession and solve this cold case, which by the way was Massachusetts's oldest cold case.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: But like I said, Ja... White... James "Whitey" Bulger ended up being beaten to death in prison. There was never a confession. And no one else ever came forward, but people kept speculating. In 2015, a college professor and his students took... By the way, coolest college professor ever. Like, let's solve a cold case.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, hello?
Em Schulz: We both know.
Christine Schiefer: I wanna be in that class.
Em Schulz: No, you would be the professor of that class.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Okay, kids, listen up.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Leona, grab your shovel.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord. So in 2015, a college professor and his students took soil samples from the crime scene 'cause people were still visiting this dune, like where the body was found. This was almost like a...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: People would stop by. It's like almost a tourist attraction. By the way, when I went to P-Town, I did not know it was the location of the Lady of the Dunes. Or I probably would have gone.
Em Schulz: You would've absolutely gone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We all know I would've gone. Umm, yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Next time. So they were hoping in this college course to uncover some sort of DNA evidence. But it's been 41 years after the crime at this point.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And it's sand [laughter] like it's the beach. It's sand like you're looking for DNA samples. That's gonna be...
Em Schulz: I don't think I know... I don't think I understand. Like what... Like if DNA... DNA I assume when it comes to sand, because it's loose ground, nothing's gonna stay absorbed for very long or it could get moved around very easily, especially after 40 years it could get kicked up.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: But I don't know if like, maybe like sand granules actually do hold like the absorbent enough that you can...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe if you dig deep enough to like soil, maybe there's soil under there. I don't know how sand works.
Em Schulz: Which like, it... It is wild that uh, like if... Let's say there is like sand... 'Cause I would imagine sand is absorbent, but then I would imagine it just turns into like, like kitty litter. Like it becomes like a solid mass.
Christine Schiefer: Like... Yeah clumping. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which maybe that would've made it easier for them to just pick up the bloody samples and toss them and that's why we never found anything.
Christine Schiefer: But also DNA could be like pieces of hair or like fingernails.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, so maybe that...
Em Schulz: It's why I also think that there could be... Like on that... On that beach, there could be a piece of hair...
Christine Schiefer: Right. That would...
Em Schulz: That would like just... Just.
Christine Schiefer: Crack case wide open.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And... And you think about like a... A town like that. I mean this is Massachusetts. Think about the winters. Think about...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, storms like in 40 years you have one fucking hurricane or one storm. And I imagine most of that sand and shit is washed away. But listen, this is why despite Em's belief in me, I am not a professor of forensics [laughter] I just read about it.
Em Schulz: The only... You're telling me the only thing that you have like minimal confidence in is like soil samples. [laughter] So like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fair. Fair.
Em Schulz: I still believe you have a chance... Just so we're clear.
Christine Schiefer: We'll do, uh, like internet forensics, I could probably teach that, you know, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Social media forensics.
Em Schulz: How... How to hack into a mainframe in 30 seconds or less.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just... Just your casual mainframe 101, you know, [laughter] Umm, now I have a very fun fact for you and I'm surprised... I was surprised when you said you didn't know Lady of the Dunes. Not necessarily for any reason except like this fun fact, which you might have heard of 'cause it... It's... It's uh, it's a doozy. So in 2015, Joe Hillstrom King son of Stephen King...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Came up with a theory. People...
Em Schulz: I immediately believe it.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And it's so creepy and good. So, his...
Em Schulz: He has to be careful with the type of power he has. Sorry, I dont mean to keep interrupting.
Christine Schiefer: No, literally. No, he said that basically he said like, listen, knowing who I am, maybe I'm just sending everyone in the wrong direction.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But... But he had a thought and it's a very compelling, I will say. So he thought, he was watching Jaws as the son of Stephen King would. And uh, he realized that one of the extras in the background of the beach scene looked identical to the recreations of the Lady of the Dunes.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Jaws was filmed right nearby in 1974. The same...
Em Schulz: Oh, wild.
Christine Schiefer: Summer as her murder. And when he released this, he basically... He put it out there that he felt it was too silly, quote un-quote, "to take to the police."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Like he put it on Tumblr. 'Cause he was like, I don't wanna, like... Like you said, like throw some wild thing into the mix. So he wanted to test it out on the public first and people went fucking bananas. The theory went viral. People were trying to track down cast records for the extras in Jaws. Like people were zooming in to like, look at who this person was and, you know, to not so much success because it turns out they didn't... The director did not have anybody write their names down for being an extra...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It was the '70s. You could just wander on set and be an extra.
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So that... So that's too bad. Umm, also if you see... Actually I'm gonna pull up the photo for you 'cause it... It's... It's a... It's pretty creepy. This is a... An angle of the extra wearing Wrangler jeans and a blue bandana.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You remember?
Em Schulz: It does look a lot... It does look a lot like her.
Christine Schiefer: But you remember the blue jeans and...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. And the blue... And the blue, uh, bandana.
Christine Schiefer: And Wrangler jeans.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: However, you know, that was a very common outfit back then. Like Wrangler jeans...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't the most compelling thing, but it is pretty interesting.
Em Schulz: The blue... The blue bandana is more shocking to me.
Christine Schiefer: I think the blue bandana is pretty, pretty stunning of a connection. I don't know. But either way, I guess, uh, Stephen King's son was like, "There she is." I don't know how he happened to be watching Jaws that closely or that carefully. Umm.
Em Schulz: This is... It's like such a... Like, he had to have paused it to like, go up to the... To like run to the bathroom.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: And when he came back he was like, "Wait a minute."
Christine Schiefer: Oh interesting. And it's doing that like staticky thing on the TV.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wait, no, this is 2015. What am I talking about? I'm like, oh, you know.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay, nevermind.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you know, he had it on his, uh, Victrola. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What am I talking about? I don't know anymore. Okay.
Em Schulz: Stoney baloney.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm not. No I'm not.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Did I convince you? Okay. So [laughter] in 2014, Detective Meredith Lobur spoke in an interview on the 40th anniversary of the murder, and she, I know you asked me, was a detective who had taken on the case almost, if not as ardently as our Detective Meads had.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay, hey, I like that.
Christine Schiefer: She did it. She did it. And, uh, she said this hat... Case haunted her, you know, almost as much as it haunted him. So she told the Cape Cod Times, "Some murders are never solved. I refuse to believe this is one of them."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I just love that they're like so fucking on it, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wish every case had people vouching for it, like, you know, and it's hard to think too. It makes me a little bit... It's like a double-edged sword because I'm so thrilled that they're, you know, going to bat like decades later, half a century later, like, really wanna solve this. But then I think about all the people who are killed and missing, whose identity we do know and don't have anybody.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like tracking down their killer or, I... I don't know. It's, it's like a little double-edged sword. Like it stings a little where I'm like, that's great, but I just wish that were more...
Em Schulz: Or the people who like their hobby is trying to crack a cold case when there's like people who need help that are alive right now and like, I don't know. I... I, then again, I guess if you're a hobbyist and not the police there's not much... Much you can do.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I was gonna say, I don't know. I'm all about solving a cold case and getting justice. I just, when they say, you know, when it's this one person, obviously that's great, but I just wish all the other unsolved cases had people this dedicated and like this...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Had detectives this devoted to the case. You know, it's like... It's like a good thing, obviously, but I wish it were more... I wish the love would be widespread, you know? So, detective Lobur shifted her focus, uh, to raise money for a new casket of the Lady of the Dunes, and I thought that was kind of touching, you know, she wanted to give her, uh, more of a proper burial.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When she was last exhumed, her metal casket was rusting and falling apart, and Detective Lobur wanted to give her a little bit of dignity, uh, since they couldn't really give her an identity.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Things looked bleak. Umm, you know, we got into the 2020, 2021 or in mid COVID, then 2022 hits and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Last year?
Christine Schiefer: And there was tremendous breakthrough last year.
Em Schulz: Shut up.
Christine Schiefer: We're...
Em Schulz: I really thought... I thought this was not going anywhere.
Christine Schiefer: No, we're talking almost 50 years later.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mere months ago.
Em Schulz: Was it Stephen King's son, was he right?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Cracking this fucking case. So, detectives used, can you guess what they used to find out? Here's a hint. Golden State Killer was caught.
Em Schulz: Like Golden State Killer.
Christine Schiefer: Pokemon, Pokemon.
Em Schulz: Oh, wait, Fall Out Boy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No. Okay, let me, okay. You know what I'm speaking to not the true crime half of the show.
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I should be... I should be more respectful of that. Umm, No, they used, uh, genetic genealogy, like the...
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: How they caught the Golden State Killer. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Of all the things I was gonna say, even with that clue it was...
Christine Schiefer: That was not on the list. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, did Taylor solve it? What happened?
Christine Schiefer: Taylor Swift did it. Yeah. Oh, boy. No. They used, uh, gene... Genetic genealogy, forensic genealogy to...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, to crack the case, to track down a family member with the same DNA linkage to the Lady of the Dunes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: This is how they caught the Golden State Killer. So on October 31st, of 2022. We're talking this past Halloween as we record this, the Boston division of the FBI, along with state police and several other official entities, announced during a press conference that they had identified the Lady of the Dunes 48 years after she was murdered.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And I gotta say, like I've known about The Lady of the Dunes for probably over a decade. Like this is one of the earliest stories I remember learning in true crime and just, that feeling like I had with Golden State Killer of like, okay, let's be honest, we're never gonna figure this one out. And so it's like so shocking and exciting...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: When they actually do figure it out half a century later. So the woman's name was Ruth Marie Terry. Oh, and by the way, I listened to several podcasts about the Lady of the Dunes before, umm, you know, prep... While prepping my research. And they were all before she had been identified.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, it was so weird to hear like the past, like, you know. I hope...
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I hope someday this gets figured out. But like, not much hope. So it's weird to look back and be like, "Oh, wow, only a year ago." Like, we thought this would never get solved.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's... It's... It's so wild especially one of them might have come out and been recorded like a month before then or something.
Christine Schiefer: Right, like right beforehand be like, it's been 48 years. What's gonna change? Well...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Look out. So, Ruth Marie Terry investigators said quote, "She was a daughter, sister, aunt, wife and mother. She had connections to Michigan, California, and of course Massachusetts."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "She wasn't an Irish immigrant after all. She had actually been born in Tennessee in 1936 and was only 37 when she was killed. Ruth left home as a teenager. She had married once and divorced. She then moved up to Michigan where she gave birth to a son in 1958 at the age of 21. She gave him up for adoption as an infant to a couple she worked with, and eventually she moved back to Tennessee. There she was married again and made her way to Massachusetts where she died." So in 2018, her 60 year old son, biological son.
Em Schulz: Oh shut up.
Christine Schiefer: Richard Hanchett decided to try to track down his biological mother.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Growing up, his adoptive parents told him stories about her. He knew she had auburn hair and that she loved to sing. And she had actually tried to reach out to him once in 1971 when she was... When he was 13 years old. And this is heartbreaking, at the time, he wasn't ready and he refused to speak to her.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so now it's 2018 and he's trying to figure out where she is not knowing she had been murdered only three years after she tried to contact him and he refused to talk to her.
Em Schulz: Oh God, that's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's so sad. He took a DNA test through ancestry.com, which got him in touch with his biological family who told him that his mother had been missing since the '70s, and they had been searching for her for decades.
Em Schulz: I... Did any of them when the... When she went missing in the '70s and the Lady of the Dunes story was catching on, did any of them put the two together that...
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't believe so.
Em Schulz: Hmm, wild.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's almost like ships in the night, like this is all going on. If only they had like seen the right news headline or...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's hard to... It's hard to believe, but there is no known report of her as a missing person. So that's part of it too, is they never reported her missing officially.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And Ruth had always sort of been kinda nomadic, like she had wandered, she made her way all over the country. And so when her family realized she was missing and couldn't get a hold of her, they didn't even know where to look. So I... Umm, you know, even if they had seen the Lady of the Dunes headline, they might not have connected the two, they didn't necessarily know she was in Massachusetts. They did say however that they had been hell bent on finding her and some of her family members died of old age, hoping to one day discover what became of her.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Little did they know she was famous in like the worst way possible, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. It's just shocking. So authorities eventually matched her DNA to her son through these genealogy websites and they took another DNA sample from him in 2022 to confirm the relation. And they told Richard, the Lady of the Dunes is your biological mother.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So what a shock. Uh, he had to learn all about his mother, uh, for obviously from the past. Uh, her nephew remembers her big smile. She was kind, compassionate, and independent. And he... This is sad, and we probably saw this coming. He deeply regrets giving up the opportunity to speak to her when he was 13. Of course.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but you know, that's not his fault, which I'm sure he knows by now. Richard told the New York Times, "Everybody that I talked to who knew her adored her. I wish I could have just talked to her, and touched her just once."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It makes me sad.
Em Schulz: Did he know about the Lady of the Dunes? Has he made a comment about that?
Christine Schiefer: That's a great question, Em. I'm not... I'm honestly not sure.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if they would've... They probably would've said if he... If he knew.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But... But I don't know. He hopes to eventually have her reburied permanently beside her parents in Tennessee, where she can finally rest forever with a name and an identity. This other sad part of this is Detective Meads, who had been so devoted to her case died in 2011. So he'll never know Ruth's name. Uh, or will he in my version of the universe? He does.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm glad you've got your own version.
Christine Schiefer: No, I mean, like in the... Uh, like I think once you die like...
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, oh, I... I see what you're saying now. I thought you meant like...
Christine Schiefer: Like I'm rewriting the story. No, no, no, no. Sorry. What I mean is...
Em Schulz: I was like, oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: In my own personal belief in what happens.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: After we die, I believe it's possible he does now know who she is and...
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, not to be that woo-woo, but maybe from the other side, he was able to move...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Things in a certain direction, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: It could... It could be. His determination obviously still lives on, uh, to the point that District Attorney Michael D. O'Keefe said investigators had not given up on Ruth's murder because Detective Meads had kind of started that train of really devoting them... Himself to the case. Her identity led to an new lead about the murderer himself, a man named Guy Rockwell Muldavin. Court records show that Ruth had married him just six months before she was murdered. And Guy is believed to come from a family with multiple properties in and around Provincetown.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in 1960, so like 14 years before she was killed, Guy was called in to answer questions in connection to the disappearance of his former wife and his own daughter.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's creepy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: That's not good. And human remains believed to belong to his wife and daughter were found in the septic tank under the home where they lived when they went missing.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh. So he is suspect number one.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking prime ass suspect. That same year, he was also called in for questioning on two cases in California where he had previously lived. One case was that of a murdered truck driver and the other was a missing waitress. And his name had come up in connection with both of those crimes.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: He fled from Seattle to New York where he was later arrested. He was charged with unlawful flight for, you know, peacing out of town. And, uh, he was never, ever convicted of these murders. And guess what? 14 years later, his new wife just gets murdered on the beach. What a mystery.
Em Schulz: Espe... If it... And if it was him, like to think that you got away with it for 14 years. 40, 50 years now.
Christine Schiefer: Now 50. Right. Exactly. Horrifying.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Like what a streak to be...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So lucky like that, which is the worst word to use, but you know what I mean. It's now widely believed that this man, Guy, was responsible for the murder of two of his wives, his own daughter, and possibly two other people. Unfortunately, he died in 2002, so there really is no way to like...
Em Schulz: So he got away with it.
Christine Schiefer: Question him. Yeah, exactly. He lived out his life basically. Uh. Having done these things if he did.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Provincetown Police are actively, as of this past November, requesting any information anyone might have about Guy and his relationship with Ruth, because we still don't know that much. And in November, District Attorney O'Keefe didn't rule out the possibility that Guy might not be the killer. You know, he said in a news conference, it's very likely that the person who did this is dead, but they may not be. And so the message to them if they're still out there is, we are coming.
Em Schulz: Oh, apocalyptic.
Christine Schiefer: Ah! Anyway, that's that story.
Em Schulz: Wow. Juicy stuff. Sad. I mean, oh, like, I never, you know, I never know what to say, but in... In terms of enthrallment, that was quite a good story.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was. Uh, both our stories had a lot of random plot twists. I feel like, like.
Em Schulz: I... I really thought that was gonna end with a and we... And we're still searching.
Christine Schiefer: I know for once.
Em Schulz: I really had no idea we were gonna find somebody.
Christine Schiefer: And I've been meaning to cover the Lady of the Dunes for years, so it's like, thankfully I waited. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I didn't know this was one of your... Yeah. Truly. I didn't know this was one of your very first, uh, true crime story interests.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it wasn't even like I had a specific interest. It was almost just like, I've known about it for years just through Reddit, like all unresolved mysteries, you know, it was always on those lists of like top unsolved mysteries. And so it was always kind of in my mind, umm.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I... I... But when I remember when they, umm, revealed her identity and I was like so shook. I was like.
Em Schulz: Never saw it coming.
Christine Schiefer: No. And it gives me...
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: It gives me so much hope for all these stories we cover where it's like, well.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe we'll know someday. Like I just live for those breaking news updates when it's like, fucking.
Em Schulz: Think of that cop who figure... Or detective or whoever that figured out her name. It was like, oh my God, this is like my... This is my big case. I'll be known for.
Christine Schiefer: This is it like, Ruth. Her name is Ruth.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if she was in the Jaws. Like I... I... I know that's, you know, kind of irrelevant, but I... I'm curious.
Em Schulz: It's still interesting, like, damn, is she on an IMDB anywhere? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like I wonder if her...
Em Schulz: How crazy?
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if her living family who knows her could look at the screenshots and be like, oh, that's her. You know, or not just to... Just to see if Stephen...
Em Schulz: That'd be wild if Stephen King's son...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Slipped in there.
Christine Schiefer: Out of curiosity if he just happened to know that, you know, or happened to figure that out.
Em Schulz: That's so funky.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Wow. Well good one Christine.
Christine Schiefer: And let me see a picture of her. She's beautiful and like of course just looks so happy and, you know, just makes everything worse. Umm.
Em Schulz: You sent it to Gio's Trio?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And look at her beautiful teeth.
Em Schulz: Look at her. Those are some good looking teeth.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: She looks like someone who is born in the '30s.
Christine Schiefer: Right. The hair, like the coiffed hair. I can...
Em Schulz: Very, very quintessential.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And I also... You know, it makes you think like if he knew to... If it was the husband.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which I think we all agree it's likely that it was the husband, umm, and he had killed his wife, his daughter, all these other people. Like yeah. He would know about fingerprints and dental records.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like he would know those things. So it does kinda line up in that way as well.
Em Schulz: Interesting. It sounds like a pretty solved case to me at least.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: A massive hurdle ahead.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, the biggest part is that...
Em Schulz: Or behind.
Christine Schiefer: At least she can be buried, you know, uh, with an identity and like her family knows now.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So.
Em Schulz: And buried next to her parents.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Which I think is really powerful.
Em Schulz: Umm, also, I'm just in general impressed that we got through this, uh, for the last hour without any trouble.
Christine Schiefer: I... I'm... I'm like, I wanna be excited, but I'm like... I'm like not touching my computer in case I fuck something up again.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like imagine.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, thank you everyone for listening. Umm, and you know, maybe next week's episode will be a little smoother, but we tried our darndest and it just wasn't cutting it all the way through.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it will be, probably it won't be.
Em Schulz: Uh, shout out in advance to our editor Jack, who, uh, uh, deserves a hug after this because it's gonna be real messy. Piecing this all together.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, I don't wanna a hug. I want the beer Christine promised.
Em Schulz: Uh...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And that is coming to you, my friend.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And until then, I guess we'll... We'll see y'all next week. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
