E334 Macarena of Veins and Casper's Foil
TOPICS: ALEX JOHNSON HOTEL, GRACE MILLANE
Alex Johnson Hotel
Grace Millane
Grace Millane
Hot Stuff comic cover for Issue 1 that Eva gifted Christine.
We're vibrant this week... is it sweat? First Em takes us to a place we don't go often for our stories: South Dakota, with the tale of the haunted Alex Johnson Hotel. Then Christine covers the tragic murder of Grace Millane. And lastly, we don't give you the license to fleb anything off of our bodies... and that's why we drink!
Visit: lovegrace.co.uk for more information on the Love Grace Handbag Appeal set up by Grace’s family and friends in her honor!
TRANSCRIPT
[music]
Christine Schiefer: That was the fastest ever...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That was the fastest...
Christine Schiefer: That we started. The fastest ever in history.
Em Schulz: We went, "Are you ready? Yes. Okay." And then... [chuckle] It's all we could...
Christine Schiefer: It's never happened.
Em Schulz: Usually...
Christine Schiefer: Nobody's ever... No we're not all ready, usually.
Em Schulz: Zoom has truly been sometimes like a 90-minute affair. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Before we even begin.
Em Schulz: The 90-minute affair.
Christine Schiefer: The four-hour... Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well... I don't know what to do with all this... Productivity. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: You, you look good today. You look like you're glowing, like... Like you're just, uh...
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Vibrant. Is it sweat?
Em Schulz: It could be.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's certainly not anything else.
Christine Schiefer: Usually with me it's sweat. So I'm just asking.
Em Schulz: Umm, I don't know. I think it might just be because I chose like a color behind me, but I feel... I feel like on my screen I look really washed out. No?
Christine Schiefer: Well you're, the tone changes when the lights change, but like, you just as a, as a, like your aura is like glowing.
Em Schulz: Oh. What if I told you that these lights aren't actually on, this is just my aura. I'm just glow... It's all over and it's so visible.
Christine Schiefer: It's just multicolor, technicolor, dream coat aura.
Em Schulz: That's me. I'm Jesus. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Are you.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that Joseph who has that?
Em Schulz: Hmm, yep.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, I'd... Listen...
Em Schulz: No, you're right.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know much about, you're more in the theater space than I am, but pretty...
Em Schulz: You're more the Christian. So, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I wouldn't even go that far. I feel like you're the one who prays when a ghost shows up. [laughter] Umm, I don't, I left that behind a long time ago.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: You know Our Father probably better than I do.
Em Schulz: I maybe I also, I do, I know way too much about the Duggars, so maybe I am a little more in the Christian world than you are.
Christine Schiefer: You eat tater tot casserole. So I think you automatically win.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome.
Em Schulz: I got...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'll take it as a compliment 'cause if I take it as anything else, I'll cry.
Christine Schiefer: It's fair.
Em Schulz: Umm, how, I gotta hear about your shows, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Ahh! Em, they were really fun.
Em Schulz: What? Uh.
Christine Schiefer: It's been like small crowds, but like, people were just so much fun. It was like comedy clubs and we went back to Wise Guys in Salt Lake City where we had shows, umm, which was really fun. And so, yeah, I read some Mormon reviews. Umm, yeah, it was, it was a good time. Umm...
Em Schulz: What was.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you for asking.
Em Schulz: What was your, the highlight of it all? Like, what was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well you just said the highlight and I have to tell you, since you made that beautiful double entendre.
Em Schulz: Huh! Was it about a highlighter?
Christine Schiefer: It's about how I'd said Alexander I have a genius TikTok idea.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: We should get high and then tell each other or write down children's book story ideas, which was something our friend Alexis made up a long time ago. And so we did that in silence for like 10 minutes. And then on video we read them aloud to each other, but we weren't supposed to laugh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and our video has almost 400,000 views already.
Em Schulz: Oh, look at that!
Christine Schiefer: Like what? I don't know. I just like put it up there. Our videos on Beach Too Sandy's page usually get like, I don't know, 800 maybe views. This one is fucking 360,000 or something.
Em Schulz: TikTok is weird.
Christine Schiefer: It was only one out of six, so I'm like really proud of my high genius, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, that, so that was the highlight literally. Umm...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But so I just posted part two and then put my phone on Do Not Disturb. So we'll see after the episode what happens with part two but, uh, my favorite book was called Mac Mackerel PI. Umm, so I'm hoping that that can be published, umm stat.
Em Schulz: Oh, right, right away.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right away. Right away.
Em Schulz: Understood.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: How, how are you Emothy?
Em Schulz: Eh, this and that.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know I sent you something, but it won't come till later on. So, but I gave them Allison's phone number 'cause I know you have more of your procedure today and stuff.
Em Schulz: Yeah, today's the day I actually get them ripped out these veins.
Christine Schiefer: Ah! Ahh!
Em Schulz: Uh, I know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I hate veins.
Em Schulz: Oh really? Me too.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God! Yeah. I know, but I've been trying to be so strong for you and I can't do it.
Em Schulz: No, I can't either. I, umm, I really, honestly, it makes me not wanna be, I can't breathe, umm, it's just.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I can't breathe and I'm not even going through it, and I...
Em Schulz: I'm just, umm, it's the, it was one of those things where like, it was the second it was done, I couldn't remember the pain.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And so now I can't remember how it's gonna go, but I know it's gonna go so bad my brain will dissociate the pain later.
Christine Schiefer: But hey, isn't that a plus?
Em Schulz: Uh, I guess so. Uh, if it's at two o'clock by three o'clock I won't know how bad it was.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You can uh, you can, uh, practice astral projecting to my house.
Em Schulz: I, yeah, I, I feel so bad for, umm, I feel so bad for the doctor 'cause her and the two people that helped me last time, they're the same people this time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. They're like, oh this one...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I have a feeling they're gonna be like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm sure they're get used to it, but...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just feel bad. Yeah, they're probably used to it.
Em Schulz: Well, they said that last time. They were like, oh well one person slept through it and was.
Christine Schiefer: I don't believe that.
Em Schulz: Apparently it's true. I have heard it from...
Christine Schiefer: Is it actually.
Em Schulz: Apparently. And, and umm, I have had to go in like, it feels like every day this week to get multiple ultrasounds to make sure that like everything's healing right.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And every time they go, I go in, they're like, how are you? And I'm like, not good. I'm like, it's like, and it's not good. Umm, and, and I, they're like, oh and you haven't even had the phlebectomy yet. And I'm like, why?
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Why would you say it like that?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you haven't even done this part.
Em Schulz: That's why I've got a little tude with them 'cause I'm like, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I haven't even gotten through the worst in the last time was pretty bad.
Christine Schiefer: I would've a tude as well. And I do also have a tude.
Em Schulz: Can you call them and have a tude 'cause I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Do you think I can call anyone and have a tude, I can't even call like a person I'm actually having a battle with and say anything but you're right. I'm sorry. I regret everything.
Em Schulz: Oh, it's times like this where I'm glad we have like Lisa Lampanelli in the corner 'cause I really just wish she could call them.
Christine Schiefer: Just in case.
Em Schulz: And yell at them because I'm in a lot of pain. But then.
Christine Schiefer: Also, like, Eva's girlfriend Rachel recently was like, oh, well since Eva does all my, umm, doc, like my medical phone calls, and I was like, am I allowed to ask her to do that for me? [laughter] Can I pay her extra on the side, just to like make phone calls for me? Umm, I, in case you can't tell at by counseling and therapy and hypnotherapy have not quite been working as well as I hope so.
Em Schulz: As soon as you find someone who knows how to like, talk on a phone and like be strong, wow. It's, you almost just want them, you want to carry them around everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: I like, I, I didn't even marry one. And I like, that is my one regret [laughter] about my relationship with Blaise is we're both afraid of the phone. I'm like, one of us needed to be strong in this area.
Em Schulz: My mom used to be the strong one on the phone and now I have to make all the phone calls myself and I'm not gonna give it to her because I think she'd actually say yes. But sometimes I'm like, man, I really wish my mom would just do this for me.
Christine Schiefer: Mom.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: All of a sudden when it comes to medical stuff, I'll always be 10 and just like, just not wanna do any of this.
Christine Schiefer: And I revert. Yeah. Revert to childhood for sure.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I drink today because in a couple hours the veins in my legs will not be there anymore.
Christine Schiefer: I'm going to jump out of the window. I can't, I can't handle it.
Em Schulz: I honestly, I, I don't even, it's usually even when I got like my, like my my SVT stuff, that was less awful. Like I...
Christine Schiefer: That was scary too. Like obviously 'cause it was your heart.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But that surgery, I was okay with knowing what they were doing to me, I don't even wanna know about the vein thing and, and I don't even wanna know after it's happened. I don't wanna look it up. I don't wanna know.
Christine Schiefer: No. Fuck on. I'm just so glad you didn't Google it. I mean, I don't know either. I would. But I'm just glad.
Em Schulz: If I Googled, I, if I Googled, I would have the bravery to call and cancel.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think, I think literally that would push me over the edge and I would be like, actually my leg is fine. Thank you for trying everybody.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And every time I would go in for the ultrasounds, they have all these charts of like your veins and how important all of them are.
Christine Schiefer: Why?
Em Schulz: And I'm like but so...
Christine Schiefer: Get it out of my face.
Em Schulz: And four of them...
Christine Schiefer: Don't take them out.
Em Schulz: Four of them ultimately are being taken out. It's two on each leg. And honestly, Christine, this is like where the shame comes in and I haven't, I haven't even shared this with anyone yet. I called them...
Christine Schiefer: It's just you and me, so.
Em Schulz: Right. Obviously. There's, umm, I was supposed to, so I got the, there's ablation and phlebectomy. For ablation does something...
Christine Schiefer: Something.
Em Schulz: That involves cauterizing.
Christine Schiefer: I think it ablates but I'm not sure.
Em Schulz: It could be the and the phlebectomy, phlebs something definitely.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. I mean I definitely know that. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know the phlebectomy is when they take it out, but the ablation is, they did something else to like cauterize old bad veins.
Christine Schiefer: I think cauterize it. Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, because that's, I only know that because the ablation that they did on my heart is they cauterize something. Umm, but, uh, my heart.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Something mysterious. We'll never know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But, umm, I was supposed to do ablation on my left leg, then ablation on my right leg, then phlebectomy on my left leg. Phlebectomy on my, it was like a whole Macarena situation.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's what they call it.
Em Schulz: The Macarena of veins, if you will.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and I have called them and told them face to face too. I'm not... I told them, I was like, can we just do the phlebectomy on my left leg, get my left leg done, and honestly not even touch my right leg. And I'll come back to it in like a year to see if I'm ready. Like, I like, and it was supposed to happen like today. My right leg was supposed, but like, it was so painful.
Christine Schiefer: Oh so you, so you put the other one off. Oh, I'm so glad.
Em Schulz: Are you? Because I'm freaking out that I did the wrong thing. Like maybe I should just rip it off like a Band-Aid and just get it done with.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you meant rip it off like a Band-Aid. Literally, and I was like, I'd rather...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I mean my veins are getting ripped out like a...
Christine Schiefer: I swear to God, Em, I was like, what? Like a, a DIY procedure. A DIY phlebectomy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. Umm, I don't give you the license to phleb anything off your body by yourself.
Em Schulz: So I, I feel, I feel like I'm doing, maybe I'm doing myself a disservice. Like I should just get it over with, but okay, here's the thing. I know we are, we've already discussed this for like 10 million hours. I'm so sorry everybody, but you know, if just me, if your veins were getting ripped out today, you'd wanna talk about it too. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so, uh, I thought, and this is so stupid on my end, and this is why I need someone, if my, if you're my mom, you're not listening to this by the way. Just go, go, go 30 seconds over. Umm, I, I was afraid. I was so afraid. I think that I wasn't like totally listening to what the doctor said, or honestly, I'm kind of convinced the doctor didn't fucking say anything that, umm, my insurance made it so, and I guess because my veins in particular are so fucking massive that the doctors agreed with the insurance that the ablation and phlebectomy had to be done in two procedures. But I guess usually it's one procedure. So like by now, my leg should have been handled.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: But I guess because my veins, by the way are double the size of most people's veins. Did you know that? I just found out.
Christine Schiefer: What?! Why?
Em Schulz: Apparently veins are a 5. I don't know what unit that is, but they said veins are fives and you have a, you have 10, I don't know what that means.
Christine Schiefer: 10 out of 10. Congratulations.
Em Schulz: And so they said, because mine are so wide and big that the procedure was going to require two procedures anyway. So anyway, I, I swear to God, I feel like no one ever said that to me. And so I thought after my ablation, after I talked to you, I thought my left leg was done. And then I went in for an ultrasound and they were like, okay, so we should schedule you for the second part and I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Why would they not tell you that?
Em Schulz: And I was like, what? Second part? I was like, do you mean my second leg? And they went, no, we have to do it again. And so then in my brain, I got it in my head that instead of having to deal with that pain one more time, I had to deal with it three more times.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, forget it.
Em Schulz: And so then I just like canceled my right leg.
Christine Schiefer: I don't blame you. I would've done the same thing.
Em Schulz: It was, it was...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not saying it's the right thing, but I would've absolutely done the same fucking thing. So... I feel like that's worth...
Em Schulz: I feel like it was the wrong thing because now I'll have a year to think about it and like maybe I should just do it. But the, and like also, like, we're not touring right now.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But what if you do this part...
Em Schulz: And I can't fly. I can't fly while I'm doing this. So like, I can't do this while we're on tour.
Christine Schiefer: On our private jet?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, I'm, I'm not allowed to fly for like two or three weeks.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: So like, I would really have to wait until we're off tour again.
Christine Schiefer: It has to be in a break. Mm. Well, okay. What about you do today's, and then what, maybe this one will be less best.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Maybe this one will feel like little butterfly kisses from the doctor. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It could be.
Em Schulz: Umm. Oh, by the way, I, I, so at the ultrasound I asked the doctor, again, I was like, "How is it that people sleep through this?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And she's like, "Well, those people who have gone through multiple births." And I went, "Oh, okay."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious?
Em Schulz: I was like, "I'm glad this is a walk in the park for parents, but, umm, not me."
Christine Schiefer: That, listen, I wish I could trade you then because I did do that one time and it wasn't fun at all. Umm, so I do wish I could... Do they... So they don't give you pain medication? I'm like...
Em Schulz: They give you anesthetic, but the anesthetic...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Is the thing that hurts somehow. I don't wanna know.
Christine Schiefer: That is insane. I know Blaise probably already explained this to me when we were in a car and he listened to this and went, "Christine, figure it out." But I don't get it. As of right now...
Em Schulz: I don't either.
Christine Schiefer: We're recording, I don't get it.
Em Schulz: They even told me, they were like, "It's not painful." Which like, I, I guess the surgery is not painful, but like they said, the 80% of the whole procedure is just getting you numb, but the numbing...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Is what sucks.
Christine Schiefer: Is it just they're giving you so many different shots of like...
Em Schulz: I mean, on top of, on top of the pain of the anesthetic, like numbing you, umm, if they're also jabbing you a bunch of times with needles to get, to be able to...
Christine Schiefer: Right, that part can't be enjoyable, I imagine. 'Cause I mean, even when you get numbing, like in your mouth, whatever, like that hurts at first. Like when they put the needle in, like that hurts.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So maybe it's like that.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And each leg is like, well, at least so far it was at least like 10...
Christine Schiefer: Mouth sizes.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it was, it was almost like 10 needles at least. And then they had to do it halfway through because I started feeling stuff, which like, it doesn't make sense. I don't know. It's just, it's very, I just...
Christine Schiefer: Are we done with the show?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I like need to lay down like, I'm not even participating in this, but I need you to understand that I'm like unwell about this.
Em Schulz: Anyway, my main, my main concern is like, and maybe it's because like at a hospital, maybe they would put you to sleep, but here they don't. But it sounds like across the board, they don't put you to sleep for vein stuff.
Christine Schiefer: I would put myself...
Em Schulz: Which just blows my mind.
Christine Schiefer: I would be like, "I'll just," umm, be...
Em Schulz: Like hit me with a hammer, like...
Christine Schiefer: Literally anything.
Em Schulz: I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Or I'll do it myself if you don't want to be liable, you know, but just put me outta my misery. Well...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, Em, I am like beside myself. I'm, I am not handling your medical shit well right now, and I'm sorry about that.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I would like to be pitied because this is a bad one, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Well, if this is helping, I sure hope so 'cause, umm, yikes.
Em Schulz: Okay. Please talk about, umm, before we get into this, please talk about something that's like going on in your life 'cause every time we...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I, I feel like, I feel like every episode is just me bitching about health stuff. So please...
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: Do something.
Christine Schiefer: I mean my stuff's never very exciting, but I do have, uh, an update that you'll probably be excited about, which is that in Vegas you kind of had to leave a little bit early 'cause you were going to the Philippines, no big deal.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I stayed an extra day with Xandy and then Eva and Rachel were there for an extra day. And, umm, we stayed at, uh, the Mirage 'cause that's where we're performing. And I found my... And I'd never like done a slot machine before, so I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing." So my brother like taught me how to do the slots. I got so into it, like, not too into it to a dangerous degree, but like, definitely lost some money but had a lot of fun. Okay? Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay. That's all that matters.
Christine Schiefer: That's all that matters, right? Uh, but I found my favorite game and I became obsessed with it. And then I got home and for my birthday, Eva and Rachel had sent me a little package. Okay. So the, the, the game, the slot that I like is called Hot Stuff and he's a cute little devil and he like flies around and I love him and I saw him and I was talking to my brother and I think Lisa and I said, "He looks so familiar. Like I feel like he would be in like a Casper cartoon or something." And so then I googled it and he literally was in the Casper, like old-timey Casper cartoons. And I'm like, "No wonder I love this evil little man so much." And so then Eva found like a, a comic, a Hot Stuff comic and he's my little devil friend. And...
Em Schulz: That's precious.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't he cute? And uh, the song goes hot, hot, hot stuff. Hot...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Does it go that way or did you...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I won like 190 bucks on it one time. Umm...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: But like he's so cute and I just love him. And...
Em Schulz: So was he like Casper's like evil best friend?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he was like, I think Eva described it as like the foil to Casper, you know, but like he also, so we read, I read the Wikipedia page to everyone. I read it at them more like, umm, and apparently...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: He is disliked by his other demon like little compatriots because he likes to do good things to make them mad.
Em Schulz: Aww.
And I was like, "This is my favorite character." And before I even knew he was in a comic, I was like, "I kind of wanna get that little guy as a tattoo 'cause he's just so cute and fun and I just love him." And, uh, my brother was like, "Okay?" But then I found out all this backstory. Umm, anyway, so I've had this on the, uh, my couch here for a while, but I wanted to show it to you 'cause it's just, oh, and then on the back it has, uh, like an ET advertisement for...
Em Schulz: Perfect.
Christine Schiefer: The ET movie, umm, 'cause this is from the '90s I guess. Anyway, so I just was like so taken aback when this arrived at my doorstep. But I'm in love with this little guy. He's the little hot stuff devil. Umm...
Em Schulz: That would be a cool little, uh, I'm not saying it now, but one day, that would be a cool...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Yeah, you get it.
Christine Schiefer: Come on.
Em Schulz: If we got tattoos together as the ghost person, I could get Casper.
Christine Schiefer: Literally exactly! I knew what you were gonna say. Knew it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: If. If.
Em Schulz: I'm not saying now...
Christine Schiefer: Wink.
Em Schulz: But maybe one day.
Christine Schiefer: Too soon?
Em Schulz: That one, that one I...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That one I could...
Christine Schiefer: Eva just texted, "I'm dead. That's so cute. Do it, do it. Do it."
Em Schulz: Also I think...
Christine Schiefer: Eva, make us an appointment. Write that down somewhere, please.
Em Schulz: We'll, we'll shop it, we'll discuss. I'm not...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. I love him.
Em Schulz: That one I'm 1% closer at the idea of getting a tattoo.
Christine Schiefer: 1% we're, we're doing it folks.
Em Schulz: It's gonna take a while, but, you know, eventually. Uh... Man, that was...
Christine Schiefer: That was me trying to distract you from everything. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It worked. That was a really good one. That was, umm...
Christine Schiefer: If you want to FaceTime me during your procedure, I can just read this to you aloud, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh, you wouldn't be able to hear yourself 'cause I'll be screaming, unfortunately.
Christine Schiefer: I'll mute you and I'll just talk. Okay. I'll just try to shout over the screaming, [laughter] umm, as loudly as possible.
Em Schulz: At the last one, the doctor kept trying to ask me like questions and I was like, I know you're not, you don't even give a about the answer. You're just trying to make me talk. And so I...
Christine Schiefer: Nice try.
Em Schulz: I was like, I'm no fool. I mean, I did walk in here, so maybe I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't know about that. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh. Anyway, uh, no, that's a great way to end the intro and uh, I hope people who like our banter had a got a kick outta the last 20 minutes. So...
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: And for the people who follow the person on YouTube, that tells you the mark on where we start our stories...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, it's right around here. So.
Christine Schiefer: And action.
Em Schulz: Today, we are talking about, uh, the Alex Johnson Hotel.
Christine Schiefer: What is that?
Em Schulz: It is in an area we hardly ever find our way in, which is South Dakota. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Hah! Hardly ever. Okay.
Em Schulz: Hardly ever.
Christine Schiefer: Have you been there?
Em Schulz: It's true... Uh, no. I mean, I mean, even in our own stories we're hardly ever in South Dakota.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's in your life. I was like, I've certainly never been there had, do you go every now and then, but I see what you're saying. Like...
Em Schulz: Just, I just pop over.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I hope the South Dakotans are happy 'cause this is very exciting for them.
Em Schulz: I hope so. And hopefully I do it justice 'cause the last, I feel like we haven't talked about South Dakota in quite a while.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if I have ever really, which is a good thing, right? Like the crime hopefully is just, you know, a less populated state.
Em Schulz: You hope.
Christine Schiefer: I hope.
Em Schulz: One would hope that there's gonna be a state somewhere that just has no crime. And maybe South Dakota is that place.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's the dream. The dream town. We're all gonna move there.
Em Schulz: Yeah, maybe. And...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And commit crimes. No, wait, that's not part of this.
Em Schulz: Hey God, that yeah, yeah. Back track it.
Christine Schiefer: It's not it, it's not it.
Em Schulz: Well, so this is in Rapid City, uh, South Dakota. And this is apparently near the Black Hills. And I guess the Black Hills have their own ghost stories.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like all hills...
Em Schulz: All hills have something spooky going on.
Christine Schiefer: There's gotta be a ghost in those hills, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. And, uh, I guess since it's next to the Black Hills, maybe it's got some sort of extra...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they're related.
Em Schulz: Maybe it's related. But I do know that in the Black Hills, some of the mountains are made of limestone.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And limestone is said to cause more activity...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or to encourage paranormal activity. So that might be it, that the whole town's got some limestone mountains going on. Umm, and then at the very bottom of those hills is a hotel, the Alex Johnson Hotel, which some of their own stones that the hotel is made of are limestone.
Christine Schiefer: Aha.
Em Schulz: So the hotel is 143 rooms. It was created by, can you guess? Alex Johnson.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [giggles] You don't say.
Em Schulz: He was the Vice President of Chicago and Northwestern Railroad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Cool. Me too.
Em Schulz: I feel like every hotelier was also a railroad tycoon.
Christine Schiefer: In the railroad, like, a baron, yeah, or whatever the word is.
Em Schulz: Yeah, some...
Christine Schiefer: A magnate.
Em Schulz: Umm... Oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Stop it. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So today, the hotel, fun fact, is on the National Register of Historic Places. It's also part of the National Tour Association. It's part of the Association of Historic Hotels of the Rockies. And it has received the first Governor's Great Service Award and the Governor's Service Star.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my. What a special place. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Me, oh my. I don't know what any of those things mean...
Christine Schiefer: Me neither. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But I, I like to think it's, it makes it a, as, it's a sterling review of...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I'm happy for them, though.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, if that counts for anything.
Em Schulz: Speaking of small government, umm, uh, we're not, but I, it's, I saw the word governor a few times, so here go.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Governor. And it's a small populated state.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Speaking of that, uh, I just found out that Allison and I are only an hour away from a town, who I've, I've mentioned a town like this before, but I just found another town, where it is a small town and the town's people have voted a dog to be their mayor.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and I'm very excited. And apparently...
Christine Schiefer: It's Burbank, California. No, it's not.
Em Schulz: I wish.
Christine Schiefer: I wish.
Em Schulz: Umm, it's only I, I guess an hour from us, or two hours from us. And they are, they have the mayor, the dog, has an Instagram.
[giggles]
Em Schulz: And, uh, they posted that in September, they're throwing a party that is all about dogs, and it's gonna be all the mayor's friends are gonna be there.
Christine Schiefer: Stop it.
Em Schulz: I have to go. And they sell t-shirts that look very like serious, and it's just like with the, a mayor, a mayoral dog on the shirt. So I have to get a shirt...
Christine Schiefer: What is the town called? Do you know?
Em Schulz: It's called Idyllwild, but it's not spelled like Idlewild.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: How mysterious. Did the dog try to write it down, [laughter] and they were like, "Oh, I guess we have to go with that spelling?" It's just a big scratch on the ground. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Christine, I am gonna tell you, the shirt that I'm getting, so I'm gonna be at that... By the way, if anyone wants to meet me, I'm gonna be at the mayor's party.
Christine Schiefer: I don't doubt, I don't doubt it for once. [laughter] I don't doubt, doubt it.
Em Schulz: This shirt says... It's a picture of... His name is, uh, Max, Mayor Max the III. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so [laughter] my mistake. Mayor Max the II was my father.
Em Schulz: The shirt has him on it.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I think there's like a bald eagle and an American flag behind him.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, of course, there must be.
Em Schulz: And it says, "The paw is the law."
Christine Schiefer: [cackles] What the fuck? I'm so happy. I'm so happy.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, you can catch me and my paw is the law. I, I don't know. It might, that might be from PAW Patrol. They might have stolen that. But...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't know. Anyway, you can catch me, umm...
Christine Schiefer: I'll Google... I don't know. She's... Leona's not old enough yet for that. So I'll let you know in a couple years when I find out.
Em Schulz: If you, uh, want a chance to run into me, it'll be at the, the mayor's party in a, in a little bit, so.
Christine Schiefer: This is excellent news. This is excellent news, Em. I'm so thrilled right now with that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, back to this. Uh, so it's a very, you know, well-esteemed hotel. Umm, and Alex Johnson himself, he wanted to make this hotel as a show place of the West.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Uh, and allegedly, he wanted the hotel to also be a tribute to the indigenous tribes in the area.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: I gotta be honest, I, I don't know what his true intentions were. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Also the word tribute is very vague. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Apparently, he decorated the hotel himself, and it still looks like that today. So there's a lot of indigenous art everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, dear.
Em Schulz: I know. And I very much hope that they very consensually made this and then he com, and he...
Christine Schiefer: As part of it, like, he bought it?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I hope he commissioned it from them and...
Christine Schiefer: Let's hope.
Em Schulz: I hope... Or maybe they gifted it to him and they said, "Please, God, decorate a whole hotel with our stuff, we're begging."
Christine Schiefer: "We need it."
Em Schulz: Umm, unfortunately, I don't think that's what happened in the 1920s. So from a white man named Alex Johnson.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That would be, that would be shocking, though.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What a fun plot twist.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But I will warn you, apparently, the whole place is just riddled with, uh, indigenous art. And I, I'm sure it's beautiful, but I also don't know how it was created, and I, that makes me nervous, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or if there's any sort of like, umm, uh... What do you call it? Like, uh, uh... God, Christine. What's like a word for like payment, like, umm, Christine? Uh...
Em Schulz: Commission? Extortion?
Christine Schiefer: Commission? Extortion. I hope that...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm giving you a range here.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. [laughter] I just, I hope there was some sort of like, at least quid pro quo, an exchange, you know? Something.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I hope so. I, I hope he just happens to like truly understand the culture of all local indigenous tribes and they welcomed him with open arms, and I hope that's the story. I don't think it is, though.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I get, I get nervous when a white person's like, "I'm going to make a tribute to all the tribes nearby, and I'm going to use all of their stuff."
Christine Schiefer: And then we don't get any more details. It's like, "Oh, okay."
Em Schulz: Yep. Yep. Umm, so hopefully, it was done with good intentions and it was, it was well-handled. But, umm, uh, anyway, on top of that, not only is the decor something to look out for, but apparently, the basement of the hotel is designed very wildly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, not interior design wise, but architecturally, I guess when they, when new management has come through and looked at the basement of the hotel, they're like, "What the fuck is the shape of this place?"
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I don't like that. In a basement?
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I guess old school downtown Rapid City, South Dakota had underground tunnels.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And to my knowledge, there was... The purpose is unknown for these underground tunnels.
Christine Schiefer: Spooky.
Em Schulz: Uh, which there have been a lot of places with underground tunnels and they have really like learned, like learned a lot about the history, they do tours about it.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But a source that I saw said, "We have underground tunnels and don't know why they're here." So that's interesting. [laughter] Today, in the hotel basement, you can find, quote, "eerily narrow hallways and oddly-shaped rooms. There's rooms that have drains in the floor for no reason" and, quote, "stairs with no apparent destination."
Christine Schiefer: What? This is like some Winchester shit.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So it sounds like maybe there was a whole other layout. I, I like to think that was why it looks so odd today...
Christine Schiefer: Please.
Em Schulz: Because it was just a different blueprint, but...
Christine Schiefer: I hope so, 'cause that is... Like, mysterious drains for no reason is not something I'd like to experience.
Em Schulz: I like to think that maybe it was like, maybe down there, there was like a butcher shop, and that's where they just like, like, they needed the drains in the floor. But then there was...
Christine Schiefer: For all the blood.
Em Schulz: There's also a rumor that that was an underground barbershop where like they Sweeney Todded people, and that's why there's drains in the floor.
Christine Schiefer: Whaa!
Em Schulz: So they're on top of it on the spooky stuff, because that rumor was before I got here. So, umm...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: You didn't just start that just now?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: No. Uh, the general manager, his name is Don Rodriguez, and he says, "We opened up a lot of different spaces that weren't available before and no one can really figure out what they are. Blueprints exist only for the upstairs portion of the hotel with no mention of the underground."
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, that's weird, right? That you wouldn't mention it?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I would think so.
Christine Schiefer: Or just forget to mention it?
Em Schulz: Or also like the hotel, like, just turned a 100. I'm sure there's not that many owners.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, true.
Em Schulz: Like, you could probably look through archives and figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: Trace your way back.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, so Alex Johnson, his main goal of the hotel was to be a rest stop for tourists coming through because they would be... It was nearby Mount Rushmore.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I see.
Em Schulz: And I guess he... You know, the railroad tycoons, the magnates, as you call them, [chuckle] they really do seem to always try to find a tourist trap and then just build a hotel next to it. That's really their only skill.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess that's why they're a ma, magnate.
Em Schulz: They...
Christine Schiefer: Well, they also know about trains.
Em Schulz: Oh, that is the truth. [chuckle] They...
Christine Schiefer: They have multiple skills. Give them a fucking credit where credit's due.
Em Schulz: I will say he... I don't know what life was like around this time. I don't know if this was like the big thing in the newspapers. Umm, but Mount Rushmore hadn't even been created yet. I think... So there were whispers of it, maybe shouts.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh. So he was just like hoping, banking on this new tourist destination that didn't even exist yet?
Em Schulz: He was, uh, he's a bit of a gambler, like you with your hot stuff.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know all about that. I'm, I'm a magnate in my own way. Umm, I'm a hot stuff magnate, so I don't think anyone needs to worry about it.
Em Schulz: As you get Casper's little red friend tattooed to you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You're like, "I'm a magnate."
Christine Schiefer: As I lose $400 on the slots. That's an ex, slight exaggeration, sort of.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, the number keeps climbing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well, it was, yeah, just do our little range. You know, we could keep the people guessing.
Em Schulz: From here to there, that's how much I lost. [giggle] So his goal was for it to be a, a rest stop for, ultimately, when Mount Rushmore was created.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So I guess he knew it was coming soon. And Alex started construction on his hotel October 3rd, 1927, which by the way, fun fact, was one day before Mount Rushmore began its construction.
Christine Schiefer: He just wanted to beat 'em by a day. Got it.
Em Schulz: By a day. He was like, "How about I, I do my hotel and you carve into a mountain four different famous faces and we'll see who does it faster."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. "And I'll put a creepy labyrinth in the basement. So, but don't worry about that. I won't write it down."
Em Schulz: "And I'll toss the blueprints." [laughter] So this hotel, it then opened less than a year later, which I don't know how in 2023 a hotel could go from nothing to a full fucking hotel in less than a year. In 1927, what skills were you... How were you moving that fast? You know?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, listen, you already dissed him and his abilities, so I don't think he's gonna let you know.
Em Schulz: Apparently, his other skill is that he can move at the speed of light.
Christine Schiefer: Good for him.
Em Schulz: So his house... Not his house. His hotel, umm, it was a very swanky hotel, 11 storeys, and it opened in 1928. Another fun fact, the first guest was Paddy O'Neill. And the bar ended up being named after him, because he was the first guest.
Christine Schiefer: I thought it was a lady. I got excited.
Em Schulz: I think it's Paddy, Patrick.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I liked it better as a lady's name for the bar, but it's okay.
Em Schulz: Patricia. It could be. We don't know. We don't know. And by the way though, can you imagine just being the first person to walk into a building after it's completed and they're like, "Oh, we were trying to figure out how to name the bar. Well, what's your name?"
Christine Schiefer: I'm always walking into buildings and hoping that happens, and it never does.
Em Schulz: If someone wanted to name a bar after us, that would be delightful.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But also, umm...
Em Schulz: No?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't know if you can just call it Em and Christine, The Bar. 'Cause I feel like we would wanna make sure that it's not covered in like indigenous art or something. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want my name on just like any place.
Em Schulz: I see.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I see. I see, I see. How about we...
Christine Schiefer: Like, like, hit us up if you wanna name your company after us, and we'll be thrilled and delighted. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Here's the situation though. We're called And That's Why We Drink. Why on earth don't we have our own pop-up bar?
Christine Schiefer: That's a great question.
Em Schulz: And I'm asking you publicly, because I've asked privately for years, so. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Em was not satisfied with my answer, I guess.
Em Schulz: I don't know how...
Christine Schiefer: "Umm, I don't know. Let's do it." That's my answer. "I don't know."
Em Schulz: For Halloween, a pop-up spooky And That's Why We Drink themed bar? Come on. No?
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm in. I'm 100... I've always been in. You know that. I just don't know what I need to do to make this work. What do you want me to do?
Em Schulz: Well, maybe what... Maybe it's what others can do. Maybe you reach out and, and show interest so we, then we can tell our manager that this could work.
Christine Schiefer: I see. Well, like, it's so weird. Out of nowhere, people just want this bar.
Em Schulz: They're, they're just rallying together, they all... It's a very organic thought of theirs. We did not shove it down their throats. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: It's like the weirdest thing. I don't know how anybody came up with it.
Em Schulz: Anyway, maybe October 2024, depending on people's interest.
Christine Schiefer: Hell yeah. [chuckle] Hit us up, folks.
Em Schulz: So, uh, this became a very swanky hotel, and dignitaries would stay there. You know I love a dignitary. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I know you do. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Including six presidents. Would you like to guess, guess the six? I'll tell you if you get even one right.
Christine Schiefer: This is so embarrass... I'm gonna say like Obama and you're gonna be like, "He was not alive yet, dummy." Umm, let me think. Uh...
Em Schulz: He was alive while the hotel existed, but he is not one of the...
Christine Schiefer: But not...
Em Schulz: Try older. Try further back.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right. Lyndon B. Johnson.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Garfield.
Em Schulz: No. Who are some famous older presidents?
Christine Schiefer: Hoover.
Em Schulz: No. I'm sorry. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck! [chuckle] Polk. Polk.
Em Schulz: Girl, I said more famous ones and you went Polk?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know any more famous ones. George Washington.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. [laughter] That's a good... That one's a good guess, but no, especially because he was around 200 years before...
Christine Schiefer: Harrison Ford. Wait. Wait. Harrison Ford. Not, no, that's an actor. [laughter] Sorry. I meant Har, Har... What's his...
Em Schulz: Gerald Ford?
Christine Schiefer: Gerald. I almost called him Harold, but it's fine.
Em Schulz: That one's right. Gerald Harrison Ford.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, I told you I knew it. [laughter] Harrison Ford. [laughter] What's wrong with me?
Em Schulz: So Han Solo came here.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe.
Em Schulz: Uh, also Coolidge, FDR, Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan.
Christine Schiefer: FDR, Eisenhower and... I'm just double checking to make sure you didn't miss one that I said, but you didn't, so don't worry.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, Obama doesn't seem to be on my list, neither does Harrison Ford.
Christine Schiefer: No, it's so weird. Harrison Ford. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, but maybe... I don't know. Honestly, maybe they could have been there and no, just no one wrote it down. I mean, they did...
Christine Schiefer: They just forgot. It's with the blueprints of the basement somewhere.
Em Schulz: Like the blueprints.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's where he stayed. I don't know. Just a thought.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So during this time, the hotel was also home to Alfred Hitchcock, umm, and Cary Grant because they were Filming part of the movie, North by Northwest.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. You mean Hugh Grant?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. I'm so sorry.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, wow. Those were like the only two actors I know, Harrison Ford and Hugh Grant. And I used to get them mixed up. That's... So...
Em Schulz: You also get Jude Law mixed up with everybody.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, he, I'm sure, has stayed there before, 'cause I think I've seen it.
Em Schulz: I feel like if you saw a little girl walking around the lobby, you'd go, "Oh my God, is that Jude Law? Like, cover me. I'm so nervous. What will they think of me?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think I'll ask for an autograph.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You could go up to Harrison Ford and be like, "Are you Jude Law?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Jude Law."
Em Schulz: And he'd go, "No, I'm, I'm Gerald Ford."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so confused.
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, Alfred Hitchcock and Cary Grant, uh, stayed in this hotel while they were filming North by Northwest.
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty cool.
Em Schulz: Which, again, weird full circle... Well, I guess not really weird. They fully intentionally stayed here becaus1 they were filming at Mount Rushmore.
Christine Schiefer: Ah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but, so in the movie, apparently, there's this famous scene, which I'm not a movie buff, I don't know how popular North by Northwest is. Maybe it's significantly popular and I just am...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like something like, uh, film students would know, and we as lowly TV students would never know.
Em Schulz: Exactly. And, umm, apparently there's this infamous scene where I watched on YouTube and I was not moved, unfortunately. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: But it's, I assume Cary Grant and another woman, umm, uh, uh, they're climbing down Mount... Literally on their fucking faces, climbing down Mount Rushmore.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I could see that being a big deal if they actually climbed down Mount Rushmore's face. But that was movie magic. They didn't actually climb... Can you imagine just free falling off of Mount Rushmore in the '20s or however, whenever that movie came?
Christine Schiefer: Like somebody's... One of the... I'm not gonna guess which presidents are on Mount Rushmore. I know I should know that. But like falling off one of their noses, probably Harold Ford or one of the others.
Em Schulz: Like... [laughter] Uh, like, they're like hanging on like the eyelids of somebody and like...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: But, so I guess maybe it was like this huge scene because maybe back then, they'd never seen anything like it on tv.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Movie magic was probably a lot more jarring and impressive.
Em Schulz: Well, so get this. I think Alfred Hitchcock actually planned on filming that at Mount Rushmore.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Like, I think he really was gonna tell an actor, "Hey, we have like, no, like checks and bal, balances on this."
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, "No one's gonna know. Just go hang off of Mount Rushmore while I film you real quick and then we'll head home."
Christine Schiefer: "Nobody is looking."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Go climb on this nostril real quick."
Em Schulz: It seems like only they were at this hotel and not like any crew that would be there to catch them or...
Christine Schiefer: Not a rope.
Em Schulz: No net, nothing. It just seems like he was, they took a road trip and they'd be like, "You know, it'd be crazy for the movie. Go jump off of Mount Rushmore and I'll film it." But...
Christine Schiefer: Just kidding, unless... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: But then the US National Parks heard about that and they were like, "You can't film here. We don't trust you."
Christine Schiefer: I like that even back then, the parks were like, "People are so dumb trying to climb on everything."
Em Schulz: Yeah. They were like, "Mm, no, you can head right back home." So they ended up basically having like a hangout at this hotel and then went back to Los Angeles to do the movie magic version. Anyway, that's the fun fact for you. Alfred Hitchcock stayed there and like also...
Christine Schiefer: He's been like foiled.
Em Schulz: And didn't film what he planned on filming.
Christine Schiefer: It must have hurt.
Em Schulz: Umm, also someone who's a movie buff is probably ripping their hair out that I said it all wrong, but whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And that's okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, fun fact, this hotel is now one of the oldest buildings in Rapid City, and it's also one of the most haunted.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So I already mentioned him before, but general manager, Don Rodriguez, he believes in the ghosts because so many people have come up to him, but he has not seen anything, a likely story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And he says that guests and staff had all had experiences. He often hears guests reporting on something without even knowing the hotel's haunted. And I think that's what really wooed him with all this.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: There are, allegedly, four main spirits. Umm, the main one, say it with me, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: A lady in white or red or black.
Em Schulz: But she... In this time, it is white.
Christine Schiefer: Damn it, I should have just fucking had the strength of my convictions. But I didn't.
Em Schulz: She is the best known ghost there. They always are. [chuckle] And I swear to God, it's the same lady in white just hopping from hotel to hotel for eternity.
Christine Schiefer: She's a jet setter.
Em Schulz: She is, uh, the best known ghost in this hotel. You can find her in room 812. And the story goes, do you need me to tell you folks? That she was jilted on her wedding night and thus somehow died by suicide. This time, I guess it's jumping out of the window.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: It seems to be jumping outta the window a lot with these lady in white stories that are never fully confirmed by anybody.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, I feel like every hotel is like, "That's a good one. We also have one of those now." Like, just kind of just keeps going with it.
Christine Schiefer: "We gotta get ourselves a lady in white."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "All the big ho, all the big magnates are doing it."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, they say that she... The story gets, you know, over time a little muddled where they don't know if she jumped out of the window or what have you. Another version is that she was actually murdered there because she was about to inherit a large amount of money.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, geez.
Em Schulz: Okay. Either way, she died and we don't actually have any concrete proof of that happening.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: There is a... Now people see a woman on the eighth floor in the hallway, allegedly in a wedding dress, and people also hear a woman crying in her room.
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: Which if it's true is very sad.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I was gonna say, so like, obviously we're a little skeptical just because this is such a widespread like urban legend in so many places, but like, if you did see a lady in white, like, would you be like... I mean, I guess you probably would, but would you be like, "Oh shit, so it's real?" Uh...
Em Schulz: Like me personally?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't know what kind of question it is, but.
Em Schulz: I think if I, I think at this point, if I saw a lady in white, I'd be like, "Finally, I at least saw one."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. That's fairy. Like, okay, so one of these out of the a hundred thousand we've covered is, is legit. Okay.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I, I think I, I do think I'm jaded on this because every hotel, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's the word, jaded. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm just guessing now, the next time I cover a hotel, there will be a lady in white.
Christine Schiefer: There's...
Em Schulz: I don't even know...
Christine Schiefer: There's gotta be.
Em Schulz: But I would bet money. Like, that's a, that's a good gamble. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Let's look at us gamble in a way our life savings.
Em Schulz: I know. And, uh... But so I, I think if I saw one, I would just be excited to tell you I finally saw one of the ones we're always talking about.
Christine Schiefer: I'd be thrilled. Umm...
Em Schulz: But I... It's also weird how many places have a jilted bride...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Who was so overwhelmed with, with losing her husband, that she died that night.
Christine Schiefer: It makes me wonder like, if, if it all stemmed from like one or a couple that were actually true and then like people just kind of spread the story. I, I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I feel like a, I feel like at least half of them have to not be real. I feel like if you keep it vague enough of like, "Oh, there's a hotel where a bride died... "
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "Now people see a lady in white," you can now just... Through the game of telephone, I feel like 10 hotels will catch on to that. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm, I'm with you. And I wonder like, which one was the one that was like, "No, but ours really happened." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Or maybe... Yeah. Or maybe I'm wildly ignorant to...
Christine Schiefer: All the bride jilting that went wrong?
Em Schulz: Depressed brides. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] You, you asshole.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I don't know. I, I hope they're not all true. I would hate... First of all, I'd feel like an asshole, but also, I hope it's...
Christine Schiefer: Right. We don't want it to be a true story. Right.
Em Schulz: Not true that that many brides are jumping to their death.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: But it is weird how we don't even have to talk... I might not even bring it up next time 'cause I'm so over these ladies in white.
Christine Schiefer: No, you should just so we can keep like a running count. But yeah, I get what you're saying. It is kind of like... You know?
Em Schulz: Someone, someone made, like, this very incredible map of all the stories we've ever covered that I know you saw we put on Instagram...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [chuckle] I'm making your face. You're like, "You saw it." [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, no, no. It, like, it... Remember it was like some sort of like picto infograph where it was like...
Christine Schiefer: I think I never opened it. I think it got sent on Slack and I forgot to check it. I'd have to, I'd have to look at it.
Em Schulz: Oh, interesting. I think it's on Instagram, but if, umm... I know Megan would know what I'm talking about. It's like someone listened to every episode and actually mapped out where all of our stories are from.
Christine Schiefer: That's fucking amazing. And they're finally like in South Dakota. [chuckle] Ugh, I am.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You can finally write that one down on your list.
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: But I wonder if they've also... And if they haven't, don't worry about going back and listening all over again. But it would be interesting to know how many ladies in white, ladies in red, ladies in whatever have, we've mentioned.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I feel like it's 300 out of 300 episodes.
Christine Schiefer: I am, I am curious. I am curious. Yes.
Em Schulz: So lady in white, she, you see her in room 812, umm, other people think she's... E, either it's, was a suicide or a murder. Umm, and now people see a woman roaming the halls on the eighth floor.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: People say they hear her crying. They also say that 812's windows will open and shut by themselves. Uh, this part is real fucking creepy, that in 812, apparently, the dresser will open by itself and not always do the usual, just like throwing your stuff out of the dresser...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It will pull the whole...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Drawer out dump your clothes out of it, and then put the drawers back in upside down.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, like, what? Upside down?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: As somebody who always has to pull plastic bags out from behind one of those drawers, 'cause they get stuck behind the drawer, [laughter] like, I know how hard it is to pull those fucking drawers out.
Em Schulz: You Know what would be so judgmental if only certain clothing of yours got pulled out? It was like, "I don't like this one."
Christine Schiefer: It was like, "You really, really paid money for this? Urgh."
Em Schulz: "Gotta go." I also love the...
Christine Schiefer: "White is my color as the lady in white, [chuckle] so please put that away."
Em Schulz: I love the symbolism of the dresser being pulled out and the clothes being dumped as a way of being like, "Get the fuck outta here. You're not welcome."
Christine Schiefer: Like, literally, I don't even wanna touch the clothes. Like, I'm just gonna dump them without even touching them. Like, that is just harsh.
Em Schulz: Uh, most people don't have the cosmic strength I do to lift a whole ass full drawer out of a dresser...
Christine Schiefer: That's so shocking.
Em Schulz: But I'm gonna do it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's so shocking. Like, "Maybe this is the real lady in white." She's like, "Yeah, I'm trying to make myself known here. Everyone else is stealing my fucking story."
Em Schulz: It's another one of those conversation pieces that we've had a million times. [chuckle] But do you think if you had a camera rolling in that room, the dresser drawer would be out...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And then in, or do you think you could watch the ghost struggle to pull the drawer out like we've all done?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then put it, put it in, put the wrong way and they did it by accident...
Em Schulz: And it's...
Christine Schiefer: They didn't even realize it was on the wrong track. Umm, I think our camera would do that thing where it just skips...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it misses time, and you're like, "Well, shit."
Em Schulz: What a shame. Because I would love to see the ghost getting fed up and just like shove it in upside down because it's the only way it'll get in. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It... That would make... I like, I, I just... If, maybe if we promise we won't show it to anybody, [laughter] then we can get it on camera. 'Cause I would love to see that.
Em Schulz: Anyway. I... Like, what a statements of like, "Just get outta here?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's rude.
Em Schulz: Also, uh, there's a quote about 812 from one of the people who stayed there. "I've never in my whole life walked into a room and been as instantaneously and intensely creeped out as when I walked into room 812 for the first time. My skin immediately started to crawl and did so for the entire evening." Then one of the hotel lobby clerks, his name's Raz Goldman, he said, "There's something I always feel a little creeped out on the eighth floor for. Uh, for me in room 812, the safe would not open, and we did everything we could and it wouldn't open. Finally, I called maintenance and the safe just flung open."
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: "I don't know why or how that happened, but it did."
Christine Schiefer: "And then it put itself back upside down." [laughter] This is like Poltergeisty though. Like, that's creepy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The general manager put out a statement saying that the spirit is peaceful, but, okay, I don't really wanna be near...
Christine Schiefer: Peaceful, like, but passive aggressive as fuck.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Peaceful, but like your clothes aren't safe, at the very least.
Christine Schiefer: An asshole. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And maybe your personal belongings, if you're gonna put it in the safe, she might keep it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would be careful, what you say.
Em Schulz: There's also, apparently, a second jilted bride here.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Umm, not a lady in red, just like a random secondary character. Uh, she's also on the eighth floor in room 802, and she's said to have, oi, hanged herself with a phone cord.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck.
Em Schulz: What's morbidly interesting about this is that, uh, this is the story that, unfortunately, we have some sort of confirmation for. Because, uh, the Rapid City Police Department showed the general manager crime scene photos.
Christine Schiefer: No. See, this is what's happening. I'm like, "What would, what do you think?" And then it's like, "Well, then it is real, and I wish it wasn't real."
Em Schulz: So I don't know, uh, if like the details of like a phone cord are specific, but there were crime scene photos of somebody who died by suicide.
Christine Schiefer: Horrible, horrible.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then also recently, an, a guest brought in a newspaper article that they found that said, quote, "A young woman died on August 18th as a result of a fall from the eighth floor of the Alex Johnson Hotel."
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: So now we don't know if that's an additional death or if that confirms maybe the lady in white being pushed or... We don't really know. It's just like a vague additional death. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Uh, but the...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, didn't you say the lady in white allegedly jumped out the window?
Em Schulz: Allegedly jumped. So this is the closest we have to...
Christine Schiefer: Any sort of like...
Em Schulz: Evidence that the lady in white as a ghost is real.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: But we, I, we don't know. It could just be that someone fell...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And it has no connection to her being a bride or if she was, you know, rejected on her wedding day.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: We don't...
Christine Schiefer: That might have been just like adding to the story.
Em Schulz: It could... Yeah. This could be... I mean, this is a very real death. And then the lady in white storyline could just like be the same...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: One that we hear at every hotel.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: On top of that. Umm, the third ghost is Alex Johnson himself, who died in the hotel in 1938 because he lived on the third floor.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: So this is what I think is weird, is that the rooms on the third floor, there's only two rooms, and the rooms are 304 and 305. [laughter] Why wouldn't you start at 301?
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Not my business, I guess. So, uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's very odd.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. So he lived on the third floor, AKA, both of those rooms. And now the third floor itself is also incredibly haunted and people see him walking around, I guess keeping an eye on things. And the fourth and final main ghost is...
Christine Schiefer: Do people... Sorry to interrupt. Do people stay on the third floor? Is it still just these giant rooms?
Em Schulz: Now it's 304 and 305. Yeah. So I guess there may be like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. But they're just really big?
Em Schulz: I guess so maybe they're like suites.
Christine Schiefer: They have like drains in all the floors just in case.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh... And oh, the fourth ghost is of a little girl, who's allegedly Alex Johnson's niece or daughter.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, who, I guess she died early of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Maybe polio, a disease.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know one of those.
Em Schulz: Well, in general, they've said a disease, but a couple sources said polio, but I'm not sure. Umm, but she is also seen on the eighth floor, and she's heard running down the halls, she's heard giggling at night. I hate that.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And I don't care how much fun she's having for eternity. I don't wanna hear you laugh. It freaks me out.
Christine Schiefer: Don't bring me into it. You know?
Em Schulz: Also, she's known to knock on guests' doors, and then when they open the door, nobody's there. Sound familiar, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It seems like when you put little kid ghosts in hotels, they don't know anything more fun than knocking on doors and like door, and like... Not DoorDash.
Christine Schiefer: It's called the ding dong. It's DoorDash.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: A ding dong ditch. Or...
Christine Schiefer: Ding dong ditch. I mean, I get it. Like, that was... It's like a age old activity, you know? Like, everyone can appreciate a good ding dong ditch moment.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or a DoorDash. I appreciate those moments. It's quite a lot.
Christine Schiefer: I also appreciate that. Yes, agreed.
Em Schulz: So she is... Apparent... That's like her favorite game. Couldn't get enough of it. She will knock on doors truly forever. Umm, and just giggle and giggle and giggle and then run down the hall. So a lot of guests have actually complained of children being too loud in the hall but no kids are actually staying there.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And those are the main four. The other stories are people seeing apparitions in their room or down the hall, hearing, knocking, hearing growling.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Apparently, pianos will play by themselves in empty rooms, the elevator will stop working randomly. I could chalk that one up to, it's a 100-year-old elevator, but okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, and people also get footage. There's photos of the lady in white that people have gotten.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And, uh, people have sent in a videos of things they've seen too. So one of the main ones is that the key rack behind the front desk was just shaking by itself for no reason.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Uh... So the two rooms on the third floor, plus 812 and 802, those are the most haunted rooms, in case you're trying to creep yourself out. This is a quote from somebody who stayed in one of the rooms that said, "I woke up around 3:00 AM because I could feel the sheets moving."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: "I waited for a moment and I could feel someone slowly slide into the bed next to me."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my God. The fact that it's slowly means like they're trying not to wake you, which is just like... And you're awake.
Em Schulz: [sucks teeth] Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's horrific.
Em Schulz: Oh, the way you said that, I hated it.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, it gives me the shivers.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it's like, "Were you trying to be polite?" Like, "Just gonna squeeze right past ya."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Or is it like, *whispering* "You don't know I'm here."
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like, "Oh, good, they're not awake yet." Like, what's the fucking vibe?
Em Schulz: Ooh, I don't know if you can see that, but they are...
Christine Schiefer: I do, man. I'm like...
Em Schulz: My ghost came, my little hairs on my armor sky high.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, we gotta get some 4K video footage in here [laughter] to really capture our skin bumps.
Em Schulz: There really is nothing creepier than feeling something sit on a bed or... I mean, never mind. Climbing under your sheets up to you in the bed is pretty bad.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm... Wow. And apparently, uh, that's just, that's just usual there.
Christine Schiefer: It's... That's just life. You know?
Em Schulz: That's just life, it's you roll with the punches.
Christine Schiefer: At the Alex Johnson Hotel.
Em Schulz: Uh, Rodriguez says that, uh, guests often report things. He said the average is at least once a month someone gets something. He also said that men are more likely to experience something unusual and that more hauntings happen in the winter time.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: I dunno why...
Christine Schiefer: Well, isn't every month winter time, except like July, in South Dakota?
Em Schulz: What?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I was like, "Is that philosophy?"
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. [laughter] You were like, "Are you well?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, "Could you talk to a weatherman about that?" 'Cause...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I am sorry. [laughter] I'm, [laughter] like...
Em Schulz: "Isn't every month the winter?"
Christine Schiefer: You were like, [laughter] you were like, "I know, we know you don't know how to say September properly, but like you gotta cool it with this like nonsense." [laughter] Oh, it's embarrassing. I meant, huh...
Em Schulz: You said it so confidently.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I was like, "Am I missing something?" You really guess? I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Well, being lied to by somebody. Probably a meteorologist, if I were to guess.
Em Schulz: Probably you. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. [laughter] It's me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, there's one guy, uh, that's a valet manager at the hotel, who he's so used to people being woken up at 3:00 in the morning and like feeling something in bed with them.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: This is a quote from him. "I would say almost half my job... " He's a valet manager, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: "I would say almost half my job is guest consolation in the morning when someone has felt like they were visited by a ghost in the middle of the night."
Christine Schiefer: Imagine him writing his resume and it... Like, the bullet points are like, "Managed this many employees," like, "Kept track... " You like go on thesaurus to find like the right word for manage, you know? Or like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or like, "I know how to execute things properly," but then he's like, "How do I like really flush out the... "
Em Schulz: "Consult, consult guests post midnight terror."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like "therapy sessions with clients." Like, I don't know how you would even phrase that. That's, that's something.
Em Schulz: Uh, he's also said, "So many trustworthy people from all kinds of different professions from all over the world end up sharing those stories here. And to me, there's only a limited number of times that you can hear those stories and still assume it's random chance that they keep happening in three specific rooms on one specific floor."
Christine Schiefer: Great fucking point. I gotta hand it to him.
Em Schulz: Uh, since the hotel opened in 1928, there are officially eight total deaths, but some of them are still unsolved. And a lot of them just never even got mentioned. Umm, it was pretty much just like the lady in white story and that's it. Umm, but we do know that there were eight deaths, so...
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: I guess, technically, there are other hotel rooms that could be incredibly haunted.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say, what, what about the other ones? I guess they just pale in comparison to the drama.
Em Schulz: If the hotel staff are openly... Like, if the general manager is like owning that this place is haunted...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wouldn't you, wouldn't you wanna mention the other haunted rooms?
Christine Schiefer: I would think so, especially 'cause these ones so far have already been kind of brutal and horrible, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also like can you imagine, umm, if all eight of these deaths are happening in the same room, 'cause that's a fucking coinkydink.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's also its own fucking story then.
Em Schulz: Yeah, terrifying.
Christine Schiefer: I would not stay there. I would stay there if there was a ghost, but not if like multiple people were literally dying for no reason in that room.
Em Schulz: Oof. One thing that I will say is that on top of everything, there are poltergeist experiences, like I mentioned earlier.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like the, umm...
Christine Schiefer: The drawer?
Em Schulz: The drawer being opened. But people, like I said, they hear growling, people have also said that they have seen things flying across the room, they have seen figures in the mirrors.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, people have been shoved and bitten.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Ooh. Ew.
Em Schulz: Bitten is so crazy and like...
Christine Schiefer: That's horrifying.
Em Schulz: Also like intimate, like a wild...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: That's like that's wild. That's a mouth on your skin.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. And also like, who are you that you're biting people in the afterlife, you know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Who are you? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, like, shoving somebody, you know, we've all been like in that... Like, I get it if you, if you're confused as a ghost or you're, they're in your space, but like biting, like why are you doing that?
Em Schulz: I, I've never hated somebody so much where I was like, "I can't wait to fucking bite them."
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like, I don't wanna put my mouth on someone I don't like, so why? Why biting?
Em Schulz: That makes me think that it's like not human...
Christine Schiefer: That...
Em Schulz: Like it's an animal.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh. I thought you meant just like a demon, but yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh. Well, yes. It could be also a demon, for sure.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Could be the one. No... Nothing to explain.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Also trace the teeth marks. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: I... And then of course, who could forget that apparently there are... You know, the chairs in the hotel room, people have said that they get randomly thrown at the staff by nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: They just fly across the room at people.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So, no thanks at all on that. Umm, TAPS, the Not Ghost Adventures, Ghost Hunters.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Uh, they came to the Alex Johnson Hotel and they said that they got their hair pulled, they could feel breath on them. Umm, they heard different EVPs. They got a, a deep voice and a female voice, they heard squeaking. Umm, and on top of that, I mean, they also heard intelligent knocking when asked.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Multiple times, They said, "Can you do this?" And then they would get knocks. Umm, oh, and as for more poltergeist activity, dogs refuse to go into certain rooms.
Christine Schiefer: See, I'm, I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't like any of that. Umm, but if you're someone who does like that and you wanna stay at this hotel, you can get the Ghost Adventure package where...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Where you stay in one of the haunted rooms, they give you an EMF detector and they give you a $25 dining credit and you get access to their very classy members-only rooftop bar, the Vertex Sky Bar...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: And free valet for the night.
Christine Schiefer: And...
Em Schulz: Free valet for the night probably means like free consolation from the support valet manager later.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: So that was what I was gonna say, and a free therapy session in the morning. No, you probably have to pay for that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, other than that, staff have admitted to seeing, quote, "figures in the mirrors," things flying off the she1ves, cups sliding across the desk like someone or something is moving them.
Christine Schiefer: Mh-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, they've also gone into rooms, you know, thinking that they like had to do a work order and when they knocked on the door, they heard someone say "Hello," or, "Come on in," and then when they got in no one was there.
Christine Schiefer: Mh-hmm.
Em Schulz: Weirdly, this is just like an extra bonus I guess, but some people have seen the spirit of a foot football player? Okay
Christine Schiefer: I thought you were gonna say a football, and I was like, "Now, I'm listening."
Em Schulz: That's crazy. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's... It's one with teeth and it bites people away. That was a weird dream I had.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so if you see a football player, you're getting like the limited edition bonus ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Congrats.
Em Schulz: And that's, that's about it, I guess on... I got nothing else to say to you.
Christine Schiefer: Whose do we know... We don't know who the football player is? He's just dressed as a football player? Is that how we know?
Em Schulz: It's actually, uh, Harrison Ford.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. All right.
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah, there's, uh, there's... The main thing is the lady in white. Uh, and then when TAPS was there, they were able to confirm that it was super haunted. And if you want that for yourself, you can get the Ghost Adventure package, so.
Christine Schiefer: Why do they call it the Ghost Adventure package?
Em Schulz: I wonder if they want you to feel like Zak Bagans was there, which as two people who have been in a hotel after Zak Bagans was there...
Christine Schiefer: That's right. That's right.
Em Schulz: It's not worth your time. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: No, I would be careful what you wish for. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. We, we can tell you...
Christine Schiefer: You will need a therapy package the next day.
Em Schulz: On full authority, we can tell you it is not as fun as it seems. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No. In fact, it's much less.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's the Alex Johnson Hotel.
Christine Schiefer: Good job.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I enjoyed that.
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, Em, I have a mo, moyda story for you, a moyda.
Em Schulz: A moyda!
Christine Schiefer: Not another moyda. This is the story of Grace Millane. Of course, it's sad. I don't know why I almost said it's sad. They're all fucking sad. Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I don't even know why I give you that little tidbit at the start.
Em Schulz: Speaking of jaded, I appreciate that you're not jaded enough to still tell us 334 times later.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that crazy?
Em Schulz: That it's gonna be sad. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was one thing that, one reason I was gonna say that I drank is 'cause we did episode 333, which is like half of 666. And we had talked about doing something very exciting and then we completely forgot, so.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We only found out after we recorded and we asked Eva what episode that was and then we found out it was 333.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, well, literally just stopped recording. Oh, well.
Em Schulz: Oh, well.
Christine Schiefer: So to start off, uh, there was a documentary called The Murder of Grace Millane: Social Media Killings, umm, that if, it's on the BBC and a lot of this information comes from that documentary.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And just to start off, 'cause sometimes I like to just fucking push you off a cliff into the sadness, umm, let's start with...
Em Schulz: Thank you so much.
Christine Schiefer: You're So welcome. I'm coming with you at least. Umm, Grace's family, uh, she was the victim in the story, shared a statement for the documentary, so I'll, uh, read it here. "Grace was a kind, fun-loving, adventurous daughter, sister, cousin, and friend with her whole life ahead of her. She was enjoying the first of what would've been a lifetime of adventures before her life was cruelly and brutally cut short. Her sense of fun, adventure, her love of travel, and exploring along with her ability to light up any room she walked into with her generosity of spirit are the memories we as her family cherish and how we will remember her."
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a toughie.
Em Schulz: Woof.
Christine Schiefer: So the story takes place in 2018 and Grace Millane at the time was a 21-year-old young woman from Wickford, Essex in England, and she planned to take a gap year to solo travel after graduating from university. So according to Grace's best friend, they'd been friends since grade school. Her name's Paige Gallagher, and she's quoted a few times throughout this story. "Grace was a bubbly, kind, caring person. She was always looking after me. She was always the one to take care of everyone else," and apparently she was also known to bring her camera everywhere to keep track of all her fun adventures and activities.
Em Schulz: That sounds like a, like any fun kid of like oh...
Christine Schiefer: Like a young person with, yeah.
Em Schulz: What year was this?
Christine Schiefer: 2018.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I feel like that was, uh, if you didn't have a phone yet, I feel like we, we as kids went through an era of like, you, you have your phone and your camera.
Christine Schiefer: Your Coolpix.
Em Schulz: Your Coolpix. Everyone had a Coolpix.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes.
Em Schulz: So I feel like, yeah, that was very common of like, well let me, I gotta get, you don't know when you're gonna need to take a picture.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But this was 2018, so like.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. I keep thinking 2008. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: But I know. I got that mixed up too. So like, she was, so in 2018 she was 21, so quite a bit...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Younger than us. So was born, I assume in '97. Umm.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But I don't know, maybe she had one of those cool fancy cameras that like, I don't know, take a lot of picture.
Em Schulz: I was always jealous of like the, the people who like the umm...
Christine Schiefer: The photography folks.
Em Schulz: The antique vintage...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Fold out cameras. I, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: If you're into photography, you just always got one on you.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, "You don't use film," and I'm like, "I did," and then I opened it by accident and it all turned black.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I don't use that anymore. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so she is doing this gap year. She was like a very creative person, a painter, an adventurer. She loved to travel, was like really good at making new friends no matter where she went. So in 2018 she planned this six week solo trek through Peru and then on to New Zealand.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So the first leg through Peru... Oh my god. Sorry. I just found a cucumber on my lap. I'm gonna eat it.
Em Schulz: When did...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: When... It's been at least an hour since you had a cucumber, 'cause I have been tallking to you the whole time. When did you, when, where, where did that come from? Did you eat cucumbers today or was that from a whole other day?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's from my sandwich that I have next to me.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So I must have just picked it up at one point and set it back down 'cause I haven't really been eating it, but I just needed a little sustenance, you know.
Em Schulz: I... Uh, that's much better because I definitely thought, umm, I definitely thought you just found that from like...
Christine Schiefer: Well, to be fair, I didn't realize where it was...
Em Schulz: An era.
Christine Schiefer: Where it was from until I, after I ate it. So that was, that was my bad. Umm.
Em Schulz: Your life is crazy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: I know...
Em Schulz: I'm mean...
Christine Schiefer: I'm a wild child. What can I say?
Em Schulz: I've never picked something up and just been like, "Let's see if I enjoy this."
Christine Schiefer: Really? That's all I do.
Em Schulz: No. Mmm, no. If, if I can't remember eating it in the last half an hour, I'm not putting it in my mouth.
Christine Schiefer: I'll eat it.
Em Schulz: Good luck.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody, you're like, nobody offered it.
Em Schulz: You're, you're worse than Gio maybe. I think he'd see that and be like, "That was from a while ago."
Christine Schiefer: That might be where he gets it from, honestly. [laughter] He does eat rocks and stuff, so that could be from me.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's true.
Christine Schiefer: That's a, I'm a bad influence. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway, so she is on this trip, uh, it's a six week solo trek through Peru and onto New Zealand. And she had a wonderful time during the first leg through Peru and she made lots of friends along the way and was keeping in touch with her home base. So back in England, umm, her family and friends were there keeping track of her and her journey. And she also posted photos of her adventures to social media. So once she got to New Zealand, she, you know, kept her like social streak going. She made lots of new friends along backpacking routes and one of them said Grace was just like everyone else you meet while you're backpacking, you're all out there for the same adventure. So they're all just like getting along, passing each other, I don't know, doing parts of the journey together.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And at the end of November, Grace decided she was kind of out of the backpacking part of this trip. She wanted to ditch the trails and go to Auckland and just explore the city. So her new friends stayed and did... You know, they're hiking, their backpacking and she decided to stay in Auckland and just explore the more urban parts of New Zealand. So this means basically she was on her own again, like doing solo travel again. So Grace did what a lot of people do when they're traveling solo and uh, turned to dating apps to find some locals who could show her around the city.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I know my cousin did this when she was visiting me in LA and I was like, "You're meeting someone from Tinder?" And she's like, "Oh, just like to like get a ride to Venice and get a tour."
Em Schulz: That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like...
Em Schulz: 'Cause...
Christine Schiefer: I don't like strangers that much, but I guess this, this young woman was much more sociable than I.
Em Schulz: I also, I mean it's, it doesn't seem that weird based on like, I don't know, I know more about like Bumble BFF.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But like, I've seen people on there say like, "I'm only in town for 24 hours, take me to lunch."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I'm like, "All right, that's... I, I'm not gonna swipe on you, but... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you said all right. And I'm like, "Wow, that was easy to convince you." [laughter]
Em Schulz: No. All right as in like, all right, that's, that's a, that's a different way of living that I would handle.
Christine Schiefer: Good luck with that. Yeah, yeah. I'm not, like, if I'm somewhere for a day, I'm like, "Can I just... " I mean, I'll either Google it or just like lay in bed and pretend like I am just at home, which is probably not a healthy way to approach travel either but it just sounds exhausting.
Em Schulz: It does. It sounds like if you're, if you're only in town for a short amount of time, I don't know. I mean, Allison's like that though.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Like, she'll travel.
Christine Schiefer: She's, she's good at stuff like that.
Em Schulz: She, when she went, she went to the Philippines before I got there and she like made a friend and on the same day they ended up going on like an eight-hour tour together. I was like, whoa, that's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but like, that's a lot of like brave. It's very brave 'cause I'm like, "What if that person annoys me?" And then like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, "I'm not even that easily...
Em Schulz: That's my first thought.
Christine Schiefer: Annoyed by people, but I feel like what if they are, or if there's something like where you're like, oh shit.
Em Schulz: I don't wanna ruin a whole day of my trip or like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's sort of like, "Oh, so now like what if they say something like, "Oh and I, my house is filled with indigenous artifacts that I stole from this hotel in South... "
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like whatever. I don't know, but I'm like, "I don't wanna be friends with this person now I'm stuck with them for seven more hours, umm." And I'm sure that's, that's just how my brain works. I'm sure that's not how it actually goes with people.
Em Schulz: That's how my brain works. When Allison texts me and she's like, "Oh yeah, we're still hanging out." I'm like, I'm like, I'm glad. And I guess it makes sense in some ways 'cause at least you make a friend and in a place that you don't know, maybe they have some like safety tips or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or, yeah. It's also like you think safety in numbers. Like at least you have a companion now and you're not a woman traveling solo.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or maybe they have.
Christine Schiefer: I totally get it...
Em Schulz: Maybe they speak the language and you don't if you're in a certain area.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it, it's, it is still bizarre to me, but I guess it's no different than like, probably the first time someone ever introduced the concept of an Uber. It's like, "Oh, you get in the car to... "
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: "With a random person."
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That's a great point, Em, I feel like I just haven't been in that position enough to really have a fair assessment, but in my head it's not enjoyable, but I can see why people do it and I'm like, good for you. You know. Umm, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm impressed by that attitude and I wish I were more like that, but even when I'm traveling, I'm just like already tired thinking about it. I don't want to go like...
Em Schulz: Like, I already, I'm exhausted trying to figure out my own way. I don't wanna have to like mingle with somebody I don't know. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. And I'm also like really indecisive and I feel like I'm not good in a partnership like that 'cause I'll just let them decide everything. And like, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I'm so picky with what is fun to me and what's not. I'd be so scared that I was with somebody who wanted to do, like, what if I met somebody and they are like, "Look, we don't know anybody. Do you wanna form an alliance while we're here? Also, let's go hiking." I'd be like, Aargh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like that sounds awful.
Christine Schiefer: Wrong friend. And I would be like, oh, that sounds awful. But I'd go, that sounds perfect. Let's go. And then I would hate everything about it, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not good enough to stand my ground. I feel like I'd be like, okay, and then just be mad at myself.
Em Schulz: I mean, I've done... I've ended up in this situation before. Can you imagine being next to somebody and you find out that they are like not vaccinated and they are coughing?
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying.
Em Schulz: Like, it's like, what?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. It's like how do you vet somebody so quickly? I mean, maybe people are just better at navigating. [laughter]
Em Schulz: We just have significant trust issues, I think.
Christine Schiefer: We could just be really damaged.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Could that be it? I doubt it. I don't think that's relevant. Umm, anyway, so she's just like kicking ass, like having a great trip, like keeping her friends and family updated. Umm, and so she turned to dating apps, uh, to meet up with locals who would show her around the city. So again, this is like a common thing among solo travelers. You know, you meet a nice person in public, umm, they can show you the best local spots. Uh, you can kind of, you know, take a look at them before you meet up. And this way you don't have to like GPS around by yourself all day. And that is how, uh, Grace met Jesse.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the date was December 1st, and her birthday was December 2nd. So this was the day before her 22nd birthday.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Jesse was the same age as her and he seemed kind, he seemed adventurous and they agreed to get dinner that night. What Grace did not know is that Jesse was a very skilled liar and manipulator.
Em Schulz: See, that's the other reason I won't just randomly talk to a stranger. I'm like, I don't know if this is a game we're both in on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And I will say too, like, and I mentioned this in a, in a few bullet points, but I am one of those people where I'm like, I can read people really well. So I'm like, but, but somebody said that about him. Like, I usually read people really well and this guy pulled the wool over my eyes. And I'm like, that's scary to me. Like if you can be such a good sociopath that like even people who are like eyeing you, you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Think you're safe, umm, that disturbs me. So she obviously did not know this and she met up with him for dinner. So this guy, Jesse, he had been living back and forth between Australia and New Zealand over the years and he apparently going back through his record, his history, just told people whatever story he felt like they either wanted to hear or would be the most impressed by. So I'll give you an example. He once told a landlord that he was a professional softball player.
Em Schulz: Me too.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Not special.
Christine Schiefer: Were you really? I'm just kidding. Umm, that's how convincing you are. [chuckle] Umm, so he lied and said he was a professional softball player and he couldn't pay rent yet 'cause he was just waiting for this season's paycheck and he got away with it for months. And then he, when the landlord finally like realized like this was all just a, a con, he just ran and never paid his rent. And so he's also brazen in that way. Like he just, when he gets caught, he just fucking peaces out. You know?
Em Schulz: It's a flight risk.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. His landlord told reporters, "He was a very convincing liar. I thought I could read people, but I badly misjudged him." And that's when I'm like, oh-oh. I don't like that. So another person had some anecdotes about Jesse. Her name was Millie Mason and she was Jesse's former housemate. She met him in 2016 when she and her friends needed someone, uh, another roommate to fill an empty room that had opened up on their lease. Normal, right? Like put a ad out for somebody. And when he responded to the vacancy ad on Facebook, they were like, you know, we looked into him. He seemed really nice. We met him. He was chatty and lovely. He told them that his dad was a restaurant tycoon in Australia. And then he said he was actually going to be buying a popular restaurant in Auckland.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But here's where things, where he misjudged the situation. Millie actually knew the owner of that popular restaurant in Auckland and was like, are you planning to sell to like, my roommate says he's planning to buy your restaurant? And the owner was like, "No, I'm not plan... And I don't know who that is and I'm not selling my restaurant."
Em Schulz: What? Wow. That's a very lucky coincidence.
Christine Schiefer: It is! Right? And I like to think that eventually something would've slipped, but like, it seems like she was just really lucky to like, have made that, you know, connection in her mind. So she went and asked and the guy was like, whoever owns the restaurant was like, no, I'm not planning to sell.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So that's when she realized like things are a little off. So she starts keeping like a keener eye on this guy, Jesse. And when she went to that restaurant one night for dinner, the one that she knew the owner, she saw Jesse working behind the bar and...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: He's an employee there. So he made up the story like, I'm gonna be buying this popular restaurant...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: When really he was either a, I don't know, a bar back or a bartender or something like that, umm, and he kind of just made up the story. So she saw him. This is wild. And when he saw her and they made eye contact, he walked out of the restaurant and never went back to work again.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say he bolted.
Christine Schiefer: Just like... Yeah. Just left.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Never worked there again.
Em Schulz: That's so wild that he... I... Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: I wonder what his... I wonder what someone's mentality is when they're like that, where it's like never having to own up to anything you are doing and like knowing you are wrong the whole time for you to just immediately jet. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: I bet, I bet it's like, oh, I've just gotten away with it so many times, I can just go somewhere new and lie and say, I've worked in restaurants for 30 years and you know.
Em Schulz: It's wild that you would think like, "Hey, I... I don't wanna run around anymore. Maybe I'd just be fucking honest."
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: It's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I agree with you on this obviously, but yeah. So they're, they're, they're weirded out, but again, he's on their lease now or he's at least subletting from them. And so she and her friends start feeling uneasy, like, you know, what else is this guy hiding? Like he clearly lied about like his whole life. So, you know, we're wary of him.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And one night one of the roommates or the housemates was alone when Jesse came home very drunk. And we don't know what he said, but apparently his behavior was so off that this housemate she slept with a knife in her room 'cause she was so afraid of him.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: And it was basically at this moment that they stopped leaving each other alone. So they always made sure there were at least two people in addition to Jesse in the house at any given time to make sure...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody was left alone with him. Which like, hello, giant red flag if you have to like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying like, wow, you know, that's how you know how bad it is. They're... They refuse to be alone with him in the house.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, that's just a little backstory about Jesse. So Grace meets Jesse on Tinder. Seems like a great guy. So she goes into her date expecting kind of this friendly, genuine guy and that's who he acts like on the date. During the date, her friend text her, how's the date going? And Grace responded, "I click with him so well, I'll let you know what happens tomorrow."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: But the friend never heard from her again.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So December 2nd Grace did not return to her hostel. And keep in mind it's her birthday now, her 22nd birthday.
Em Schulz: Oh, man.
Christine Schiefer: Her friend, her best friend Paige messaged her happy birthday and heard nothing and she thought it was odd. Umm, but she was like, well, she's traveling and, you know, in a different time zone and is making friends, so maybe she's just celebrating her birthday. But then Paige kind of touched base with the other family and friends and found out nobody had heard from Grace on her birthday, not even her family members and that's when they started to get nervous. So...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: People at the hostel where she was staying were getting nervous as well when she didn't return to her room. So her backpacking friends start reaching out to each other and figuring out that nobody has seen Grace for over a day. And by the time detectives actually like got the missing persons report set up, uh, it turns out Grace's backpacking friends were already putting up missing persons flyers all over Auckland asking people to contact them which like, I think that's so cool that she met these people backpacking like presumably a week or two ago and now they're throughout the city putting up like missing posters and being like, help us find our friend. I don't know, I think that's really cool.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So detectives knew that this would quickly become an international circus, media-wise, uh, and it did. It was all over the radio and TV in England, especially in Grace's hometown, which must be really hard for her family. Her story blew up on social media. People in Essex said it was impossible to scroll anywhere without seeing an article being posted...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: About her disappearance. And Grace's family meanwhile decided to travel to New Zealand. And while they're there, her father makes a media statement appealing for her safe return, any info about her whereabouts. And detectives start looking into Grace's social media.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The last person to comment on any of her social media was a man named Jesse Shane.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. So detectives messaged him and found out his full name was Jesse Shane Kempson. And the next day he actually reached out to police directly and said, "Oh, were you trying to touch base with me?" And they asked him to come in for some questions. So on Tuesday, December 6th, he arrived at the police station to answer questions wearing a three-piece suit.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm...
Em Schulz: Going to church after this?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like very odd, umm, for like a 20, early 20s guy to show up for questioning in a three-piece suit, but whatever, umm, you know, people were weirded out and one detective described, "Throughout the interview, some things early on were a little bit odd, but some people are odd." I was like, oh, well, I guess that's a fair way to shake it out.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So he told police, yes, I had been on a date with her the week before. We had matched on Tinder. Umm, we matched Friday, began talking Saturday, December 1st. And he said the last time I saw her is when we parted ways after a casual dinner date. Meanwhile, which Jesse did not realize, is that detectives were actually following Grace's movements on CCTV footage throughout the city.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So CCTV or closed circuit television, umm, basically everything stays in a closed circuit, believe it or not, so that it's not like publicly broadcasted, umm, and many countries use CCTV as a surveillance tool to investigate crimes. In some places like Auckland, CCTV has basically like eyes on just about every street, intersection, grocery store, elevator. Like everything's...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Covered. And you know, this is like...
Em Schulz: How lovely. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I know. I'm like, oh fuck yeah, 'cause like I would...
Em Schulz: That sounds great.
Christine Schiefer: I would love for that to be used for the safety of others, but also it's raised a lot of controversy about surveillance states and, you know, the priva... Privacy, like how private are we if they're filming everything we're doing, like where...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: They're putting cameras. What's next? You know? So I'm, I'm sure there's a lot of, umm, controversy, drama.
Em Schulz: Back and forth.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Back and forth surrounding that. And I don't know enough to say anything definitive, but in this case, at least it was beneficial to get to the bottom of this crime. So CCTV, they're looking through it for, for evidence and, you know, it's only a few years ago, but like the facial recognition was not as, you know, uh, really advanced as it is now. Umm, and so it was a lot more of just minute by minute, second by second watching just hours of every camera trying to find where she is and then...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, follow her. So it's very, very, umm, tedious and labor-intensive work.
Em Schulz: So you're watching someone's whole day and like still getting cameras that might not catch her and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, you gotta... They had to find her first, so they're like just watching them...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: To try and find her. And then once they find her, yeah, then they have to like track every camera, which again, I imagine like incredibly tedious.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But they are, they're able to follow extensive footage of Grace on her date with Jesse through Auckland. And there was footage of them at the burger place, uh, for their date, standing at the counter ordering food. Everything seems pretty normal on the footage and Grace is smiling while they're chatting. Jesse told detectives he chose the public burger place in case Grace was a catfish because he was worried about his own safety.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: He said, "I wanted it to be public for the security," and I'm not, I'm not making that sound or face for people who are actually legitimately...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Meeting people, of course you want it to be public. This guy's just so full of shit that it makes me mad. Umm, he says, "If she, if she wasn't who she said she was, at least in my mind, I'd feel safe." Oh yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You and your three piece suit you weirdo.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Prince Charming.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh yeah, indeed. So when asked how their date ended, Jesse said there was a hug, a kiss on the cheek and a thanks, nice meeting you. And he said the evening ended at an intersection between his hotel and Grace's hostel. He said at 8:00 PM they hugged and parted ways in opposite directions. So this is what he's telling. And so in the interrogation footage, you can see the detective asking Jesse to confirm the details several times. Like, okay, "So you're sure?"
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "This time, this intersection, you just kissed each other on the cheeks, said bye, and went different directions." He says, "Yes, a 100%." What he doesn't know is they're [laughter], they're watching this, and it is not at...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: All what he's saying is happening. So they're like, Okay, glad we got him. Like repeatedly saying, a bold-faced lie or bald-faced...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Bald-faced lie.
Em Schulz: Bald-faced?
Christine Schiefer: Bald-face?
Em Schulz: I. We're both bald-faced...
Christine Schiefer: Bald-faced.
Em Schulz: Bold-faced. 'Cause you're bold, you're boldly saying it, your face looks...
Christine Schiefer: But I think it's a bald-faced lie. Like, like it's, there's not...
Em Schulz: But your face... But you can look bold as you're lying. Your face can be bold.
Christine Schiefer: You can also be bold... Bald. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But a bald person could be bold.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, I just googled...
Em Schulz: A bald person.
Christine Schiefer: Bald-face and bold-face lie. And they're both allegedly a thing. Umm...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, because it's like a bare face... Like you're, there's nothing concealing it.
Em Schulz: Oooh.
Christine Schiefer: Like you're just baldly like saying something without any...
Em Schulz: Understood.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I would think bold because you are like, you're how bold of you to just look me in the eyes and say that?
Christine Schiefer: Umm, yes. I think that's why it gets confused. But apparently, umm, bold and bald-faced are in common use, but experts prefer bald-faced lie.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So that's why I said it.
Em Schulz: Right. The experts. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This article from the Bar Association of San Francisco says, "Don't say bold-faced when you mean bald-faced."
Em Schulz: Okay. Relax.
Christine Schiefer: But then also... [laughter] Don't tell me what to do. Uh, okay. So in any case, he's telling this lie that's just...
Em Schulz: Has a face to it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, has some sort of face. I can't confirm or deny. Umm, anyway, he said he walked down the street to a bar after they parted ways and had 10 drinks, okay? The next thing he remembered was waking up in his room at about 10:00 AM. He said he was confident about the time he woke up because he checked his phone right away and it said 10:00 AM. So again, like I said, he didn't realize that the detectives are outside the room watching footage that is just directly contradicting everything he's saying. So in the actual CCTV footage, you can see them chatting for a while at the intersection and they both turn and walk down the street together toward Jesse's hotel holding hands.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking liar. That moment, obviously, proved that his story was an outright lie. They watched more CCTV footage, which showed Grace walking into Jesse's hotel with his arm around her shoulder. They took an elevator to the 3rd floor where Jesse lived, and this is the last time Grace was sighted on any footage because she was not ever seen leaving the hotel.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the detective left the room for a bit and Jesse apparently knocked on the door and they were like, "Yes." And he said, "Am I being arrested for something I didn't do?" And they said, "You haven't been arrested mate." [laughter] So, so...
Em Schulz: Are you in handcuffs?
Christine Schiefer: Nice try. Yeah, you're still wearing your three piece suit, okay, calm down. So he came back in with some printed images of the CCTV footage and said, "Wait, so is this you in the pictures?" But he still didn't get that like it was contradicting. So he was like, "Oh yeah, that's me." Like, without thinking. And so they were like, "Okay, cool. So we just blew your whole fucking story."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently the disturbing thing to detectives was that Jesse seemed totally comfortable and chill, like not a drop of sweat the entire time. Umm, they said everything he told them sounded comfortable and plausible. Umm, and you know, they said maybe his suit was throwing them off. But also I feel like that would make me less...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Likely to believe him. But maybe I... Maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe like this... The outfit just makes him seem more mature or professional than he really is.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I guess so. Although I would wonder if the guy that's always bolting for him to, to just say, am I being arrested? Usually it sounds like if he has any suspicions, he is just gone.
Christine Schiefer: He's just gone. So I wonder if he asked to be like, "Can I leave?" And maybe they were like, "No, you're being held for 48 hours or whatever."
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: You're not arrested, but you have to stay here. Maybe he was trying to get out of it...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't know. But apparently the suit idea, like made them think he was much more believable. So much so that they said if they didn't have the CCTV they might have just believed him. Which is like...
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: So shocking and is makes me, it makes me so thankful for things like CCTV, even if they're...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In controversy, but it might've worked. He might have tricked them if there wasn't direct proof, uh, that he was lying. So the detective starts laying out all the conflicts in Jesse's timeline. Umm, it shows him leaving his hotel room dressed for the day at 8:00 AM on Sunday, not 10:00 AM, like he said, he woke up at 10:00 AM checked his phone, he's leaving the building at 8:00 AM. And the detective says, "You haven't told the truth." And after a long silence, Jessie just said, "Is there something you wanna ask me?" Urgh.
Em Schulz: Urgh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's my exact reaction. I was like, urgh. Ooh, so the problem was, although he was lying, there was no evidence that he had hurt Grace even though she got off on his floor. It's all circumstantial, right? Like we don't have proof he did anything.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So all they could do was hold him for no more than 48 hours. So they released him, but they filed for a warrant to search his apartment and the forensics team used something called Luminol.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: All right. All my forensic files girlies out there... [laughter] It's our moment to shine. Uh, so Luminol reacts with blood and makes it glow. Like in those shows, you've probably seen this happen. Umm, the Luminol unfortunately showed massive amounts of blood in his hotel room.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The missing person's investigation officially became a murder investigation only a week after Grace's disappearance, December 8th. They look... Took a look at his phone and found out that he had been searching for porn at around 1:00 AM in his hotel room. But on Monday, the day after his phone data showed he was out in a wilderness area about 12 miles outside of Auckland. Sketch.
Em Schulz: Ughh.
Christine Schiefer: So sketchy.
Em Schulz: Well, ugh, I don't even wanna know, but I do wonder, like was the porn before or after he killed?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'll tell you.
Em Schulz: Fuck.
Christine Schiefer: And it's not good.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. So detectives asked Jesse to tell his story yet again, and now he's changing it 'cause he knows he's been caught in a lie, right? So he's like, "Oh, I can explain everything." He says he... Don't worry, Em...
Em Schulz: Take it away.
Christine Schiefer: Take it away, buddy. Uh, he says he took Grace back to his hotel where she told him about a little book called 50 Shades Of Gray. According...
Em Schulz: God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. According to Jesse, he was unfamiliar with BDSM, but Grace told him she had fantasies related to the book, and Jesse said Grace asked him to hold her throat. He says the last thing he remembers was falling asleep in the shower. But when he woke up, he said he thought Grace had left, but he left the bathroom and found her lying on the bed with blood coming out of her nose.
Em Schulz: Well, that's convenient. You just forgot everything.
Christine Schiefer: You forg... You just happened to forget after you fell asleep in the shower. Uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then he said she... He screamed and tried to wake her up, but she was dead. So now his story is that this was a drunken sex act gone wrong. Umm, but the detectives were like, "Okay, nice try buddy. Like you already baldly boldly lied to us," so like fuck you.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he said he dialed 111, which is the New Zealand emergency line. Uh, but hung up because he was too scared and he apparently left his apartment and bought a huge suitcase, brought it home, and put Grace inside. And that is what he took her out of the hotel in.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Which is like so horrific. And then he said, because I guess he thought this might sway somebody, that he sat in his car for a while to pray.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Great.
Christine Schiefer: Then he grabbed a shovel and took Grace to the woods where he buried her. Then he bought a bunch of bleach and other cleaning products to clean up the scene. And now all of these purchases, including the suitcase were captured on CCTV. So this part of his story was true. Then footage shows him walking around town with Grace's belongings in a black trash bag, and he goes to a park and just shoves them into a trash can, a public trash can.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And this is all on fucking CCTV. So Jesse continues he... To insist that he's panicking this whole time about this death by... This accidental death that occurred. But like while they're watching him, he's just like so fucking calm, just like moseying along. Like he doesn't seem even upset or nervous during any of this footage.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's... I mean...
Christine Schiefer: That's telling, like it's not proof, but it's telling like that...
Em Schulz: Like for someone who's that manipulative, you think you would know they'll like maybe fake a tear.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. But I think he didn't even realize he was being filmed that whole time. Like since he thought...
Em Schulz: Ah.
Christine Schiefer: They couldn't track him, which I'm like, if you live in that town, and you're...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of a criminal, you probably should know. But I guess he knows now. So the detective asked, "To your knowledge, did Grace die while she was in your company?" And Jesse said, "To my knowledge, I would say yes." But he still insisted he didn't kill her and that he didn't kill her with intent at the very least.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he took police to the spot where he buried Grace and they recovered and formally identified her remains, tragically. When they did an autopsy, it showed that Jesse strangled Grace for 7-10 minutes. And detectives felt there was no room, no plausible room for a rough sex defense. So they charged him with murder. The trial began November 4th, 2019, like 11 months after Grace first disappeared. And Jesse's defense team said it was completely plausible that Grace was encouraging, this is so sickening, Jesse to strangle her during sex.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And that this was just a... An unfortunate accident. Imagine being her family in the courtroom and having to hear that, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It just really makes my skin crawl.
Em Schulz: It's just an added slap in the face.
Christine Schiefer: It is, yes. And I think later they, they even said her family like it felt like Grace was on trial but couldn't defend herself. Like it felt like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Je... Ooooh, it's so infuriating. So the quote from his defense team was, "Ms. Millane died as a result of what they consensually engaged in during their time together." But the prosecution argued that Jesse would have strangled Grace for minutes until she fell unconscious and then continued to strangle her after she was unconscious. So the lead prosecutor said, "Doing that is much more likely to be about what's going through the bloke's mind and his attitude toward that woman than it is to be an accident of rough sex." Like you're not choking someone until they're unconscious and then continuing to choke them and it's an accident." Like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That goes against everything he's saying. Like he just thought she had left and then she had a nose bleeded all of a sudden. It doesn't make any sense. In the end, Jesse's defense as an honest man, panicking about a sex accident fell through because of all this CCT... CCTV footage. And he was described as cool, calm, and in control while he, you know, moved through the city, buying a suitcase, buying bleach, just like chilling, you know. Worse...
Em Schulz: Like zero panic is the weirdest thing to me.
Christine Schiefer: Zero like concern, not like... Not even like.
Em Schulz: That makes it seem like this isn't your first time too.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Doesn't it? It's like there's not even a paranoia about it. Like this is why I'm convinced he's a sociopath 'cause he just doesn't seem phased. Like he's lying to everyone.
Em Schulz: If I... If I for some reason killed somebody and was trying to cover it up, everyone in town would remember me as like the really twitchy person...
Christine Schiefer: Frenetic, yeah.
Em Schulz: Who was so fucking scared and weird. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And didn't know where to buy bleach and walked into Michaels and was like, "Do you sell bleach?" And they were like, what?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Like this is... There's something apparently that was really unsettling about the footage and worse, which you had asked before. Grace had been dead for a while in the room while he was searching for porn online.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So it's true.
Christine Schiefer: It's true.
Em Schulz: So he, so he...
Christine Schiefer: He murdered her then...
Em Schulz: And then wanted to get off to it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow. And also, like, I, I don't even know what this means. I don't think this, I don't, I don't know what this means, but it's weird that like, you would already do something like that and you would still need porn to get off. Like, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I know, you know, and I wonder, I don't know what...
Em Schulz: That's not an, that's not enough adrenaline for you to like, like you still need more?
Christine Schiefer: I know, but I wonder, I don't even, I wonder...
Em Schulz: I don't know enough psychologically on what that means, but it, it seems like if you have this weird thing where like you're attracted to...
Christine Schiefer: But I don't even know if that's what it is. Like, I don't know if he attacked her because he was trying to rape her or something and he, he strangled her and the getting off wasn't about the actual violence. I mean, maybe it was, I don't know. Maybe he just was like, now I...
Em Schulz: I guess, yeah. I don't know what it...
Christine Schiefer: Want to watch porn, I have no idea.
Em Schulz: I don't know what it, I don't know what it means, but it, it freaks me out. It freaks me out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And we don't know the details of like what he was searching for, so it didn't tell us much there. But it's, it's very bad. I think it gets very bad. It's a very bad look.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, all this looked bad for him, obviously. And after a three week trial, the jury only deliberated for an hour and found Jesse guilty. He was sentenced to...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Life in prison, but would be eligible for parole in 17 years. So throughout the investigation and trial, Jesse's identity was kept somewhat concealed in New Zealand media, unlike our United States. Like approached...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like our frenzied like people magazine approach to anybody on trial. Well, not anybody, just famous people. Um. So they tried to conceal his identity to try and give a, give him a fair shot at more trials because following his murder conviction, he was still being charged for multiple crimes, including raping another woman he met on Tinder years earlier.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Along with abuse against a former partner who actually had a protective order against him. And she actually ended up speaking out and saying she intended to be Grace's voice against Jesse.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, I know.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Goosecam. In the end, those trials found him guilty of sexual violation, threatening to kill, assault and assault with a weapon. And he did appeal his murder conviction and lost. Last fall, he began appealing those other convictions and lost the appeal again this March. And the convictions are still remaining, against him.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Jesse's former roommate, Millie, the one who knew the restaurant owner and like caught him in those lies, said she felt both angry and guilty. Like she could have done more to raise some alarm or some alert about Jessie, but like, you know, that's just survivor's guilt. Like, there's nothing...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She could have done 'cause he didn't do anything, you know, he...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He lied to them, but like...
Em Schulz: No one, no one is blaming them.
Christine Schiefer: No, exactly. Exactly. So Grace's friends and family said that this guilty verdict was welcome, but it obviously couldn't undo all the suffering they'd endured. And the New Zealand prime Minister actually apologized to Grace's family on behalf of the country, and they held candlelight vigils throughout the city of Auckland and they ended up, which is at least somewhat of a silver lining, passing new laws in England and Wales, to ban rough sex as a defense in murder trials.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Not to defend... Not to ban rough sex. That'd be quite something to try and uphold.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, but just to, to be able to basically prevent men from saying...
Em Schulz: Like, oh, I accidentally choked her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh she wanted to be part of this. Yeah, exactly. Grace's family started something called the Love Grace campaign, where they give out handbags with important supplies to victims of domestic violence, which I think is really cool. And they explained one of the things that comes out of this is that women should be allowed to do what they want without a sexual predator doing what he wants and taking her life, which is like yeah, understatement of the century. That absolutely.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Milly said, "I think we as women are trained to walk with our keys in our hands and make sure we walk in brightly lit streets. Us not knowing what to do isn't the issue. We shouldn't have to do those things."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Amen. And in their statement for the BBC documentary, Grace's family said they were relieved. The government chose to ban the rough sex defense so men wouldn't kill women knowing they could just use that excuse.
Em Schulz: Yeah, true.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, for a lighter sentence. And they said during the trial it felt like Grace herself was on trial and unable to defend herself, which must be just so helpless for the family.
Em Schulz: [sigh] Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Now no other families would at least have to go through that specific circumstance, in the area. And they said grace will always be their sunshine.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. That's heartbreaking.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, I know. So that's the, that's the story Grace Millane. It's, it's horrible.
Em Schulz: It's wild. How many lies he didn't get caught in until...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or he probably hasn't gotten caught in in the past for...
Christine Schiefer: It makes you wonder like they, like the housemates did, like what else is there? Like what else has he been just making up this whole time?
Em Schulz: Oh, and I feel, I feel so bad for the housemates too, being like, I fucking knew something was crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yes! I mean, and it's like so hard 'cause what do you do in that scenario? Like you say, oh, he lied to us about, well, so what? You know, like the police can't do anything about that.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But you feel unsafe and like, there's nothing you can do except to just get a new place to live and then find out later that he murdered someone. Like ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If only there was, I mean, it would be wildly abused. So if it wouldn't be wildly abused, I wish there was like a suspicious registry you could put people on, like...
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? Like a red flag registry.
Em Schulz: Yeah, some...
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm calling it.
Em Schulz: I got tingles going on about this person. We should watch out for 'em.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I... Maybe you should have to have some, you can have some validation behind your name. So like, oh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I fucking called that guy. So now you get like a verified check mark.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For the RFR, the red flag, uh, registry. You're like, I know this. I knew he was up to something.
Em Schulz: I saw something and I said something. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Oi. Well, well, Christine, that was, umm...
Christine Schiefer: A doozy.
Em Schulz: An interesting story. I hate calling them good stories. It was a...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know.
Em Schulz: But it was, it was, umm, well researched, well done, well-spoken Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Why, thank you my friend.
Em Schulz: Except halfway through you like ate a dirty cucumber or something.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: All in a day's work, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That was crazy. Uh, oh. Well, I guess I'm gonna go get my veins ripped out now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! Okay, well, you know what? We've had a lot of fun here folks, but, Em, is gonna go make me wanna crawl outta my own skin.
Em Schulz: Everyone go, umm, I don't know, everyone go take a walk so that maybe your veins aren't as bad as mine one day. I don't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Keep those veins healthy folks. That's what we always say around here.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.