[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: The air feels weird.
Em Schulz: The air feels weird?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what are you bringing to the table? You... You're bringing in energy. That's, umm...
Em Schulz: Oh. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I'm an empath, and so I can sense other people's energies. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah, my... My energy is a little wild today. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Don't you love when people claim like, "Oh, I can sense other people's energies?" I'm like, "Me too," because they're standing... 'Cause I've known them for 10 years, and they're like stressed out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: 'Cause you're looking me in the eyes and I'm twitching?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, well, no, my... I was just really flustered. I had like doctor's appointments and everything today, and I felt like I wasn't having enough time. I woke up at like 6:00 AM to get everything done. It still didn't work out.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck.
Em Schulz: Umm, no, I, uh... By the way, before we start on on [chuckle] like a classic Em finds a way to complain about things note, did you, umm, maybe get something at your door today?
Christine Schiefer: Well, that was my why I drink today.
Em Schulz: Okay. I was very nervous it didn't get there. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No, no, I just, I felt bad 'cause I wasn't texting you. But I was like... I was gonna bring this up on the show.
Em Schulz: Okay. No, I... Okay. Well, I'm glad it got delivered to you. I, uh... Christine has some shows without me coming up. And I...
Christine Schiefer: And without Eva. It must be noted.
Em Schulz: It must be noted.
Christine Schiefer: Because I have become the point person for... [chuckle] For Beach Too Sandy. And my brother's like, "Since you know this better than I do, can you be the point person?" I was like, "Totally."
Em Schulz: Well, I, uh, I'm very excited and proud of you. I'm excited for you and proud of you.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And also happy to, umm, not have anxiety building in me today. But I'm sure it's building in you, and so I wanted to send you something. But I... I was nervous because... Just one of the other things I got all flustered about today is the delivery guy called me and seemed so confused about how to deliver something, and I was like... I...
Christine Schiefer: The thing to me?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which like, it was just like a normal, like... I mean, was it... What...
Christine Schiefer: What? Okay, let me... Let me... Let me set the scene.
Em Schulz: Yeah. What did I send?
Christine Schiefer: I was on... I was... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't remember.
Christine Schiefer: I was on a road trip for many days. I've been driving... Well, I... I was driving, Blaise was driving, but I'm just like at my wit's end. And I'm home for 12 hours and then I leave for Tempe, Arizona, the beautiful metropolis of Tempe, [laughter] tomorrow morning, [laughter] like 6:00 AM for a show for Beach Too Sandy. Anyway, also, by the way, thank you to everyone who like listened to the show. We'd got like a boost in listens after that one episode where I mentioned the show.
Em Schulz: Oh yay.
Christine Schiefer: So that was very nice. Umm, but, so I got home and I'm like trying to get my bags in and my mom's like, "This got... This was on your front porch." And it's this big edible arrangements bag.
Em Schulz: Bag?
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, "Em sent me something," 'cause who else would send me that? And there were all these chocolate-covered strawberries, and there was like a box of like little drink like where you... Like hot... I think they're like hot cocoa bombs or something.
Em Schulz: Oh, I kind of do remember saying that. There was...
Christine Schiefer: It said like, it was like a drink bomb. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It's for alcohol, I think. It should be. I... I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it is? Oh, I didn't even look that closely. It looked like a hot chocolate one.
Em Schulz: Oh, if it... If it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that changes everything.
Em Schulz: If it's hot chocolate, I'll be disappointed. I think I got that 'cause I thought it was a cocktail situation.
Christine Schiefer: I'll still be... It might be. I didn't look close enough. I was very excited. And by the way, Leona had, I was gonna say her first, but no, she's had them bef... Chocolate-covered strawberries the last time you sent them too.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she just... It's like the peak...
Em Schulz: I'm telling you.
Christine Schiefer: The peak of her existence, these chocolate-covered strawberries.
Em Schulz: So far, it sounds like her and I finally have like a... A similar palette, a food palette.
Christine Schiefer: You, you do. Yeah, you do. You really do connect on that level.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but, so thank you Em. And it was... It was just so thoughtful and like... I don't know. I ju... It just made my day. So thank you.
Em Schulz: Well, thank... I... You're welcome. I wasn't going to... I wasn't trying to like flex and like bring it up. I just wanted to make sure it actually got there, 'cause the delivery guy seemed like he didn't know what stairs were. And I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's... Well, you don't either. To be fair, you just see them as a threat. So I feel like...
Em Schulz: I even, [chuckle] I even said, I was like, "Do you have an issue with stairs?" And he was like, "No, I just, I... Do you want... You want me to leave them on stairs?" And I was like, "Yeah." He was like, "I don't understa... "
Christine Schiefer: You know what he might have done, which sometimes happens, is sometimes they go to the side porch.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like really confused 'cause there's like a gate and like a baby gate and like maybe...
Em Schulz: He seemed really as flustered as I was today, so. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: It's bizarre. I really don't have an explanation for that.
Em Schulz: I... Part of me thought he was like trying to act confused so he could swipe them. That was my big fear, that he...
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "Sorry, I don't get it. So I'm gonna take these strawberries home even though I work for edible arrangements and probably can eat these all day long."
Em Schulz: I know. I was just nervous that it... It got... It didn't get to you. So anyway, I wanted to send you something because this is where I also shout out Christine. For my birthday, Christine sent me this like holy crap cake.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Who... By the way, the deliver... The delivery person was also incredibly confused. [laughter] And I was like, "I'm not... " I was like, "I am in a different state." It was very chaotic. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Well, I wanted to thank you for that, 'cause it was a very yummy, yummy, colorful cake in every way. And...
Christine Schiefer: I... I picked neon green as the color option. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You picked neon green for the frosting. You picked rainbow for the six slices.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then you picked candy in the center. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [cackles]
Em Schulz: It was... It was like Willy Wonka exploded. But, umm, I, uh... It was very yummy. I felt bad. I wanted to send you something on your birthday, but I knew you weren't in town. Anyway, there's that. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was so nice. Yeah. No, this was so perfect. Thank you, Em.
Em Schulz: The... The other reason why I...
Christine Schiefer: Also, the, berries said thank you in big letters. So I was like, "Oh, you're welcome." I don't know what... For what. Maybe for the cake.
Em Schulz: I picked good luck, but...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool. It said thank you, but I... I'll take either or. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay. Well, the other reason I drink is because yesterday was my first round of this vein nonsense, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: How is it?
Em Schulz: I...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so... I'm...
Em Schulz: It was...
Christine Schiefer: Hold on. Hold on. This is why I drink. Look, Em, by the way. Remember how you had like to sli... We had to slightly delay our start today?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, 'cause you had doctor stuff, and I felt so bad 'cause I was like not being as flexible as I like to be. Umm, but so then when we started, uh, on Easter... East Coast 4:00 PM, I was like, "You know what that means."
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: Some vino.
Em Schulz: Thank God.
Christine Schiefer: And so before you go any further, Em, I need to fill up a wine glass because I have not been drinking much at all lately. Umm, I know everybody, but I'm exploring my THC world. [chuckle] Umm, and so the drinking has been, uh, at a minimum lately. So I... I'd like to now partake as is the tradition of this show.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Finally. Well, to answer your question, it was out of control. I'm actually so upset. I kind of... Like, I... I haven't had time today to cry, but I will later.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em.
Em Schulz: Because... So I already came in hot today knowing that I was gonna tell you I drank because this was like a garbage procedure. Like, like so...
Christine Schiefer: You already had the procedure?
Em Schulz: I already had one of...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: What I thought was two, but it is one of four.
Christine Schiefer: Uhh!
Em Schulz: It was... I... Okay, I gotta say, if you're someone who has this procedure, apparently the pain range is like something you've never seen.
Christine Schiefer: Do you wanna say what it is, just in case people are like, "Do I have that procedure?"
Em Schulz: I am... I got a vein ablation. I thought I got a vein ablation and phlebectomy, but apparently the phlebectomy is done separately. So I have to go back...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is that?
Em Schulz: Umm, so I have varicose veins. Thank you Gamy for everything wrong with me, including...
Christine Schiefer: Aww, Gamy.
Em Schulz: Including the varicose veins. [chuckle] umm, and...
Christine Schiefer: "For everything wrong with me." Wow.
Em Schulz: She's the reason for my heart. She's really... She said, "Peace out, your turn to carry all this trash." So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: So, uh, I had varicose veins that were like... I know it was more cosmetic than anything. Uh, I guess like they don't actually do anything too damaging to you. But mine were already so gnarly at 30 that the doctors were like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you just want to get ahead of it, right?
Em Schulz: They were like, uh, "Technically, yes, it's cosmetic, but also like yours is already so advanced that by the time you would wanna get this removed later, it will be permanent. And also like a... The veins... It might spread to deeper veins and then it's a real fucking problem."
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: So it like half...
Christine Schiefer: So that's fair. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If it was just cosmetic, based on the pain, I would just let my other leg look like trash for the rest of my life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But apparently, it sounds like it leads to worse things later. And since it's already bad, I might as well just do it. Oh, Christine, it literally... Okay, the way that the doctor just... I will say the pain. Some people, if you ever have this, I can't tell you what the pain's gonna be because apparently, some people sleep through it like a little baby. They said that someone this week was snoring through it. And you're not, by the way, snoring because they chose to fall asleep during their surgery.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Not sedated.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Not like... Like, if you could be sedated, you know I would've been sedated. Umm, but, yeah, apparently some girl just like took a little fucking napsicle during hers. And me, on the other hand, the way they described it is I looked like Bruce Banner becoming the Hulk for the first time.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, Em. Oh, I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: It was...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: It was like the... Like it was... I mean there were three people there. One of them was there to hold me down.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: One of them, her whole job was just to like pet my shoulder so my brain would be distracted with something else.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Which, by the way, didn't work. And I was trying so hard to keep it together. I know, yes, I'm like a drama queen. We know this. But like at doctor's places where people don't know me, I really try to like keep my cool.
Christine Schiefer: You do hold it together typically.
Em Schulz: And this was... This was, uh, truly uncontrollable. I was like tears pouring outta my eyes, screaming, squirming, screaming.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em. Oh. Oh, Em. Oh no.
Em Schulz: Passing, writhing. Because also it's not just like a shot of like Novocaine in your face and then like your gums. No. Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask, is there any pain management or no?
Em Schulz: They give you anesthetic. But, first of all, I have a sensitivity... Again, thanks, Gamy after all my heart shit. I didn't have this before, but I don't know if it's long COVID or what, but because of my heart issues, I now have a sensitivity to epinephrine, which means that, umm... Which is usually in a lot of numbing medications. And so they have a different one without epinephrine, but it lasts only half the time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good.
Em Schulz: So they have to basically... I'm... For the rest of time now have to sign up for double shots, because they have to halfway through, gimme more when I start feeling pain. Umm, so on top of...
Christine Schiefer: [sigh] I'm stressing out.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: On top of that, it wasn't just one shot, it was my whole ass leg. And in case anyone's met me in real life, I'm 6 feet and my...
Christine Schiefer: Tarantula, tarantula legs. Tree trunk.
Em Schulz: I'm 6 feet, and my legs are 5 of that. So...
Christine Schiefer: Are 5 of the feet. Yes. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The rest of me is like a little box. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I can't deal with this.
Em Schulz: So they had to give me shots all through my legs. And it's, it wasn't just... Oh my God. So, umm...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I didn't know, I didn't know it was actually... I thought today was just like a, umm, consultation.
Em Schulz: No, that was last time. This... Yesterday was the first round of four now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Right. But... So not only that, but I'm incredibly ticklish on my legs. So now the part that on any given day, I wanna like, like, you know, constrict and don't let anyone touch the ticklish part of me, that's the part that they have to stab with needles. Umm, so imagine like a needle going into your armpit [chuckle] or like at the bottom of your foot, but it's behind your knee. And also when your groin, like where your leg and your like crotch attach...
Christine Schiefer: No! No, no, no. You know, I can't do veins. We're already pushing it here.
Em Schulz: Well, so they just... They ended up give me a shot just to numb me. But the shot, I mean, imagine getting pinched and stabbed with a needle on the most sensitive spot possible. And then... Okay, apparently, the surgery itself isn't what hurts. They even said like, "80% of the problem you're gonna experience today," they were like, "We can't tell you how you're gonna react." Spoiler alert, it was not good. But, umm, the... I don't know what it is. If you work in this field, can you explain it to me? But the anesthesia that they give you is the pain. Is the pain.
Christine Schiefer: Huh?
Em Schulz: It was so painful. It was... I don't... It took my breath away. And like it had to happen...
Christine Schiefer: Wait. Like, in your leg, it hurt?
Em Schulz: I don't know if they like had like the needle and then they like injected it, because they were able to somehow tell me, "Okay, here comes the anesthetic," or like...
Christine Schiefer: So was it like burning?
Em Schulz: Knives, fire, everything.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: It was so painful. And it doesn't just happen once, it happened at least 10 times. Because they had to numb so many portions of my leg. So every time they got a new part of my leg, they had to go, "Okay, like, get ready for another round of this." It was... I mean, [chuckle] like, I can't... Just thinking about it is getting me all fucking hot and sweaty. And the fact that I have to do that three more goddamn times...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna cry. That's the worst part.
Em Schulz: I'm... I... It's, it's truly like... It... I remember thinking, 'cause there was one point... And not only that, but mid surgery because it was on... I... I had two veins in the leg that had to be handled. And so one of them, I have to be on my back, and the other, I have to be on my tummy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they're like... [laughter]
Em Schulz: And so halfway through the surgery, in incredible pain, they're like, "Flip around, girl." And so... And then they... And then they...
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious, they made you flip? Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they had... The home girl who was holding me down the whole time, she... I mean, God bless her. And she was this tiny little thing. I was like, "I'm gonna... You're gonna fly across the wall, [laughter] like across the room in a second." Oh, Christine, it was so painful that I'm kind of wondering if I should just not do any other procedure ever again.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, really. I'm just so sweaty just even thinking about it, about you doing it.
Em Schulz: When I was... When I was on my back and like they were doing it while I was like looking up at the ceiling, I remember thinking, "I feel like this is the closest to like labor I'll ever be in," 'cause I have been like...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I wonder what the pain comparison is.
Em Schulz: I was Lamaze breathing like I never have in my life. I was just chanting like, "This sucks, this sucks, this sucks."
Christine Schiefer: But why can't they just fucking numb you?
Em Schulz: Because apparently some people sleep through it 'cause it's not even a problem. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: But I told them, "I'm such a... " I told them going in, I said, "Put it in my chart that I have a very low tolerance for pain."
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But so like, what is it about epinephrine that you can't handle? Like, it makes your heart crazy?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Can you just risk it and be like, "Just fucking sedate me," or something?
Em Schulz: I... I kind of... I don't know. And... And it wasn't apparently, either way, the anesthetic part...
Christine Schiefer: Can't they do twilight?
Em Schulz: Uh, the anes... No, they can't... Trust me, I begged. Trust me, I begged. And, uh... But it wasn't like even the epinephrine or whatever... I don't know what it is, but apparently, it was like the... I... I... I don't know how to describe it. All I know is it was just the most pain. And epinephrine or not, it happens. Oh my God, it was so bad. Oh, it was so bad. Anyway, not to like totally terrify anyone who's getting this done, but...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: I always wondered why my Gamy like never got her varicose veins corrected. And now I'm like, "Girl, if you heard stories told by people like me... "
Christine Schiefer: Why did she not warn you?
Em Schulz: I know. I always heard that it was bad, but I also... Like... Like the procedure was bad, but I also thought like, "Oh, I heard that in like the '90s. In 2023. This will be a breeze." Wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they'll know how to handle it.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Wrong. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: It... Oh my God. It's just so beyond. And...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I can't. I'm an... I'm an empath, so I'm really struggling right now.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And my leg, I got my very first stitch. That was kind of crazy. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why I said that so excitedly, but...
Em Schulz: Oh, one thing that is like... The... The I... Irony is like the recovery is like totally fine. Like, I feel like I got charley horsed, but other than that, I'm good.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But it's inconvenient 'cause I have to... I have to go on a 15-minute walk every hour. That's so inconvenient. Like from...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Know. Are you gonna go away during the show?
Em Schulz: I'm... No, I'm gonna double up after we record.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, a half hour walk?
Em Schulz: I know. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Look at you.
Em Schulz: That's why I drink. And it's a very good one. And it will also be the reason probably for the next fucking three weeks because I keep doing this.
Christine Schiefer: Oh lord. Get ready folks. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Anyway, I'm ready to never think about it again.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I can't wait for all of the updates on the different menagerie of people they bring in to hold you down and restrain you and comfort you.
Em Schulz: They had to put it in my file that I'm like the worst of the worst to have to deal with.
Christine Schiefer: They're gonna get... I can't wait for all the updates. Seriously. Umm...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I... I can't wait for the update when it's like, "Oh, you're done. You never have to do this again."
Christine Schiefer: Ugh! Me too.
Em Schulz: Me too. That's the dream.
Christine Schiefer: BRB. I'm gonna go on fucking edible arrangements, buy you some fucking berries or something. That's the least I could do.
Em Schulz: I would like that. Umm... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, I know you would. Uh, I know. I know. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: All right. Well, anyway, I... Let's get into this.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't even have a sip of wine during that. I was so overwhelmed. I'm sorry. Em, I feel bad.
Em Schulz: If... Honestly, if I... It made me actually think I might really actually drink alcohol and get fucked up just for the next time I have to do that. It was so crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, there's better ways, like maybe, umm...
Em Schulz: I was double Xanaxed, triple propranololed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you were. Well, never mind.
Em Schulz: And that's the amount that I take on stage. I don't really wanna go further than that. But like...
Christine Schiefer: But can't you take Zola? Uh, not Zola. Uh, uh... [laughter] Let me... Let me list through my little, uh, [laughter] apothecary and my... My mental apothecary. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Can't you take a, uh, propranolol and then get the epinephrine [laughter] so that they... Your heart's calm?
Em Schulz: Maybe. But my heart... Ironically, my heart was totally fine the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that's good? Question mark. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was every other like survival instinct ignited instead. Oh, my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so happy question mark. Oh God, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. This sounds like a nightmare.
Em Schulz: Anyway, one day I won't have a health problem to come to you guys about. I promise. It... It...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just so scared of... Of people being in pain, you know? It's just my least favorite thing. And I don't want you to be in pain.
Em Schulz: Me either, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I'll... Wait. Tell me when it happens next time. Maybe I can practice my reiki.
Em Schulz: It happens like every Monday for the rest of time apparently, so. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, just seriously let me know when it's starting and I'll... I'll practice my reiki on you.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: If it's... If you want it. If you don't... If you're like, "Fuck off," then I will.
Em Schulz: You can try in the waiting room where you can hear me screaming. I really feel like whoever was in the waiting room had to have gone home. [laughter] Like... Like, I... I was absolutely... It had to have sound like a torture chamber in there. Anyway. I know like I obviously had the worst experience. I... If anyone else is out there that's about to have to deal with this, I so hope that that's not your experience.
Christine Schiefer: Let's hope you're the girl who snores, everybody. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, let's hope everybody else is just like, "What are you talking about? Mine was easy."
Em Schulz: I'm... And whoever is like that, be nice to me in the comments. Don't say like I'm being a baby.
Christine Schiefer: No, they better not fuck around like that. I mean, seriously. I don't... I don't want any of that nonsense. But, umm, let's just hope for everyone else's sake that if they are in that same boat, that they're the ones who will have [chuckle] an easy, breezy time. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I certainly hope so. Also, I've got things in my eye. Oh my God, I've got so many problems today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. You're full of problems.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well, Christine, let's talk about one of your favorite topics. Let's talk about aliens.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, ooh, ah, yay!
Em Schulz: Okay, so I don't know if you've heard what's going on in the news recently.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Oh, well, some of it. I don't look into it 'cause I always... I always like live in like the constant suspicion that you'll cover it. So I don't ever dive deep.
Em Schulz: Well, you're such an empath. It's like you knew.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? [laughter] That got me.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay, so for those of you who don't know, uh, there has been a whistleblower amongst us recently who is telling us all about some UFO naughty secrets in the government.
Christine Schiefer: Naughty, naughty!
Em Schulz: Uh, our whistleblower, his name is David Grusch. And he was a former intelligence officer with like, I think, if not top secret, almost top secret clearance.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, he was part of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency or the AG... The NGA. And he was part of the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which is apparently one of like the top five intelligence agencies in the government.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: He's also a former member of the Department of Defense's AARO for the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office.
Christine Schiefer: Oh... Oh my.
Em Schulz: And they love an, uh... An acronym, don't they?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, they sure certainly do.
Em Schulz: So the DOD's AARO. Okay. And...
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes they have to make up words because they're like, "That already exists." [laughter] They're like, "We can't do the National Reconnaissance Association 'cause that NRA exists. We'll be confused for the other one. We gotta make it up."
Em Schulz: Yeah. I like to think that like one NRA and the other NRA would like have like a little like friendly debate though.
Christine Schiefer: Shootout? Oh.
Em Schulz: Oh. [laughter] Well, I think we know which NRA would win. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't bring... Don't bring a verbal argument to a gun fight with the NRA. That's what I would say.
Em Schulz: Okay. That's a fair po... [chuckle] That's a fair one. [laughter] Uh, so they... Uh, when he was part of the AARO, what they did, they had a program where they investigated and identified, uh, UFO sightings, or as they are called in the government, UAP sightings for unidentified aerial phenomenon.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Yes.
Em Schulz: This guy... Okay, so he actually, umm, I'm reading my own fucking notes and seeing that he did have top secret clearance. Good for me. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You guessed it. You're psychic.
Em Schulz: Not only that, but the quote says Super, super secret, top secret intelligence. [laughter] Uh, this was a quote about him that said that David Grusch, uh, often handed... No, sorry, often hand couried... Couried? Couried? Couried. He was a courier?
Christine Schiefer: Is this what the guy with the strawberries do? [laughter] Is that why he's so confused? [laughter] He's like, "I've never couried before." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just gonna say hand-delivered. Who the fuck tried to make it fancier? Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hand-delivered. Yeah, there we go.
Em Schulz: So David, quote, "Often hand delivered, super secret, top secret intelligence to the west wing of the White House. He was trusted with the biggest secrets in the United States."
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And then this is a quote from a different source talking about, uh, 2017, which, uh, we discussed this our... Shout out to our episode guide, if you would like it. Uh, if you go click, listen.
Christine Schiefer: It's great.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay. So episodes...
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome.
Em Schulz: 122 to 124. So it's a three-parter where I talked about the AATIP... Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, three-parter.
Em Schulz: I know. We don't... I don't usually get a lot of three-parters.
Christine Schiefer: It's not often that we do that.
Em Schulz: I will tell you I just listened to one of our three-parters, I re-listened to our QAnon episodes.
Christine Schiefer: You did? I've been meaning to and I'm so afraid like 'cause... Not afraid but I'm like, "Well, that's gonna be like a big emotional and mental and time commitment.
Em Schulz: It's wild that I, I didn't think there were like updates? But I feel like all that information is so old now that like maybe there isn't an update episode for...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like we were talking about it. It was so weird to hear us talking about something that was blowing our minds when it's just so fucking normalized now.
Christine Schiefer: And now it's like well whomp whomp don't you wish it was still so outrageous?
Em Schulz: Like I'm saying things in there where I'm like, "They think Trump is like their God." and I'm like, "Yeah girl like we... It's.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, where have you been?
Em Schulz: That's old news now." By the way, you are so funny in those episodes.
Christine Schiefer: What? Really?
Em Schulz: Yeah, you really brought it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice.
Em Schulz: Anyway another three-parter...
Christine Schiefer: I think sometimes when I'm on, under pressure I just like panic and shout anything that comes into my mind which...
Em Schulz: It worked.
Christine Schiefer: Like you throwing off at the wall like something will be funny you know.
Em Schulz: It worked. It was funny.
Christine Schiefer: Very kind.
Em Schulz: Uh, anyway, so if you'd like to go listen to 122 through 124 to catch up on AATIP, which is now again, also old news. But, umm, this was back in 2017. This is a quote from a source about... About it. Umm, "When the New York Times and other outlets revealed the existence, uh, in 2017 of a covert program at the Pentagon dedicated to cataloging UFOs."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: Uh, "This program was known as the AATIP or the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program." and this all...
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: And this all came out of, uh, videos that I think like, uh, Air Force or Naval pilots, they were seeing things in the air and pictures and videos got leaked and then the Pentagon ended up just like releasing them in 2020 being like, fine, you caught us there.
Christine Schiefer: Fine.
Em Schulz: And then... [laughter] And so this is another quote, "The Pentagon established after all of this, a properly funded publicly accountable team to investigate reports of UFOs or UAP." And David Grusch. This is just a full circle moment from those episodes. David Grusch who we're talking about today. He was part of that team that got created.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But he says that the promised new age of government transparency about UAP was a fallacy.
Christine Schiefer: Bullshit. Yeah, I bel... I thought so. I knew it.
Em Schulz: So I think they, uh, created it... Well, they created it for a few reasons. Remember like a... A... A... Like a De... Like a Senator Majority lead, like ended up funding like millions of dollars to it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And so, uh, I think his name was Harry Reid, but I remember that he... They were saying like, oh, we're gonna be transparent about UFOs now, but really.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't Harry Reid like super-duper like famous, like majority leader of the Senate or something?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just didn't remember.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and he's the UFO guy.
Em Schulz: He was the one who funded, uh, the... The program to the Pentagon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay, wow.
Em Schulz: In 2017. But, umm, he funded like $20 million or something. But...
Christine Schiefer: Also, if I was wrong about that fact, you guys, I'm sorry, I'm not... I'm literally the worst person at...
Em Schulz: He is the Senate... He was the Senate majority lead at the time.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay, okay. Okay. 'Cause I'm... I feel, I'm like, I just said that and then went, that was probably not correct. Okay.
Em Schulz: But he, uh... I'm trying to remember like the pieces of that story, but I feel like the government was telling us like, "Oh, it's gonna be all about transparency, about UFOs." But really they kind of, I think in... In like private sectors were more like, oh, we're just going to let people report things more openly so we can learn about like foreign, like adversary nations and their...
Christine Schiefer: Ah, okay.
Em Schulz: I think they were like kind of... There was two sides to this coin.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm not surprised, I guess.
Em Schulz: And now from David Grusch, we're learning that that is absolutely true. He said, uh, he was part of the team and, uh... This is a quote from him. "There are many videos... " Like basically saying like, if this... If we were all about transparency, then, this is a quote from him. "There are many videos that are totally fair to release through a declassification process. I find it very concerning from a transparency perspective that all the department has... That the that the department has all these declassifieds, uh, and yet only three famous videos were ever shown. Umm, there are more concerning videos that left me with a lot of questions."
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: "That nobody has seen."
Christine Schiefer: Highly suspicious.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So David was also a representative and an analyst. An analyst co-lead. So I guess he was like one of the bigger analysts of the group. Uh, and a representative to the UAP task force, which apparently there's a UAP task force.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: Uh, from 2019 to 2021, that was his job. The UAP task force investigates, UAP sightings and reports. And he... When he joined the task force, he learned that not only was he like now in a program within a program, but there was another program that even the task force in general didn't have access to.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So it's like, how fucking deep down this rabbit hole do I gotta go?
Christine Schiefer: How many layers are there?
Em Schulz: Yeah. So he tried to join the task force. He was... But they wouldn't give him access. And he over time learned that the program was a broad crash retrieval program, which, quote, "retrieved non-human origin technical vehicles," which he says you could call "spacecraft" if you will, but they were non-human exotic origin vehicles that have either landed or crashed.
Christine Schiefer: Ah. So the more secret group was like the retrieval team.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Which...
Christine Schiefer: So that's like Seal Six... Seal Team Six.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, they're like the ones that even the like crazy famous or crazy like high up people don't even know who went in to get.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Saddam Hussein. I'm saying a lot of things about the world that I don't understand, and I think...
Em Schulz: You're just... You're just shouting Harry Reid, Saddam Hussein. Ah!
Christine Schiefer: I'm saying it all wrong, but you know what, maybe this is just the new me. I just say things, uh, on a podcast and...
Em Schulz: It's... Oh, that's the new thing? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's the new me and they're incorrect. Oh wait, nevermind. That's the whole premise of the show. Okay, go on.
Em Schulz: I think it's 'cause I told you you were funny and you went, "Now I'm gonna ride that high."
Christine Schiefer: No, I went, I guess I gotta swing the other way and try to be fucking intellectual. [laughter] Like that's ever gonna fucking work. What's so wrong with me. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so he, uh... He basically by finding that out, by the way, and by saying that alone to us, he is admitting there is a program in the government where all we do is retrieve spaceships.
Christine Schiefer: Like, exactly. So like it ha... Come on people.
Em Schulz: So that sentence alone should tell you like whistleblower.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: 10 out of 10.
Christine Schiefer: Amen.
Em Schulz: So he wanted access to this group because don't we all?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah!
Em Schulz: And he ended up getting really apparently intense pushback. We don't know what that pushback looked like. He's keeping that private for now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, but he ended up reporting it to Congress.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And he went to Congress and he goes to this, uh, this guy who's called the Intelligence Community Inspector General. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: How... Dear Lord. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, I would love for him to introduce himself at a bar to me, and I'd go, okay, great.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] I'd be like, "I fell asleep after the first word. What was that?"
Em Schulz: [laughter] But then he'd say, he like, knows where spaceships are and we'd be like, "Oh my God, let me buy you a drink."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We'd suddenly be very interested.
Em Schulz: Uh, so he goes to Congress, he goes to this inspector general and he tells them this, you know, "I'm getting pushback from this program." And this is kind of confusing to me because for all the sources I looked through, which by the way was a lot, I'm still very confused on like how much he could say to them about top secret things when he had a higher clearance than them? I feel like it's like he was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Reporting... Like what was he allowed to say and what wasn't he allowed to say? And I kind of answer that in here to the best of my ability, but I'm... Even, I'm still unsure.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, but it is weird though, like to go to a... What's the opposite of a higher up, a lower down? I don't know. And then be like...
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] I mean, literally. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And be like, "I can't... "
Christine Schiefer: A subordinate.
Em Schulz: It is a subordinate and be like, "I can't tell you what's going on, but they're being mean to me and you have to trust me on that."
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Like, oh wait, that's true. So, wow.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That is weird. I totally get it until now.
Em Schulz: 'Cause not every one in Congress... Not everyone in Congress has top, top secret clearance.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But he had to be like, "I need to tell you what's going on." Because also what he was going to tell them is that there's... And he's whistle blowing.
Christine Schiefer: He was already breaking... Breaking the...
Em Schulz: Like how did he...
Christine Schiefer: Confidentiality.
Em Schulz: How far into the, "I'm telling you, classified information,"
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Can you go before it's too much? Like 'cause I mean he already, I... I'm telling you now publicly what he's already said, which now Congress also has to know that like we are collecting spaceships, AKA aliens are real.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But, and then he's like, "But forget about that. They were really mean to me." And the people are like, "Wait, go... Rewind, please. What?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't totally know what he... 'Cause he also said he wasn't going to announce what the pushback was, so I don't know what he's able to tell them.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: It's just... It sounds like he's like Andy Bernard trying to get into the Finer Things Club and like Michael Scott isn't helping him.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a... I think that's the same kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle] It's like, why wouldn't you let me in the club?
Christine Schiefer: I'm pretty sure that's it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So I don't know if he was reporting them that like he was getting... I mean he was reporting that he was getting pushback. The official complaint was that he was getting pushed back. But it also feels like this was an excellent moment which he took to tattletale that like, "Oh, and by the way, the program they won't let me into is also about... "
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: "Spaceships." Like, so I'm kind of confused on like what was the bigger point he was trying to tell them, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or was... Were they... Was he just mad that he wouldn't get in to the program and then they were like, "Well we need to know what program it was to go talk to them." And he was like, "I can't say," like I don't know how it went. Umm, but he did say eventually quite a lot and, uh, he told them some classified information, especially the Intelligence Community Inspector General, because that guy actually had a level of clearance he could go to him about.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, so he ended up saying there are deeply... This is what he was telling them and what is now being whistle blown to us. So this is some new information for everybody. Umm, he eventually said "There are deeply covert programs that have recovered spacecraft, intact," these are all quotes, "Intact and partially intact crafts of non-human origin."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Crafts of non-human origin!
Em Schulz: Which like, what a fancy way to say that because you know, after centuries of us wondering, he should have just been like, that's a motherfucking spaceship. Like... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: That's a spaceship!
Em Schulz: Like way to keep composure during this.
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: Then he said that this information was illegally being withheld from Congress.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And so now he's going to them to talk about it. Uh, because the... They were being intentionally sheltered from this information about these human non-origin spaceships. They were being withheld from Congressional oversight by the programs responsible because I guess these secret programs were trying to figure out if they could reverse engineer the machines themselves and make them part of our own military technology.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I see.
Em Schulz: And then this is another quote from him saying that, these UFO, I guess are called legacy programs, the way that they were hiding in plain sight, as we said, like how far do the layers go? He explained that to the... What he was aware of is that these UFO legacy programs have long been concealed within multiple agencies nesting activities in conventional secret access programs without appropriate reporting to various oversight authorities. So it's a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so they're hiding them?
Em Schulz: They're hiding them, like a program within a program, within a department, within a program, within a...
Christine Schiefer: That is sneaky 'cause it's the government, you know, nobody's gonna fucking figure it out for years. Like just dig through all that.
Em Schulz: Well how... Like think of the acronyms you have to get through.
Christine Schiefer: So... Oh. [laughter] You start running outta letters.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So he also... So he ended up filing an official complaint alleging that he suffered retaliation for disclosing, which again is vague, but that was apparently intentional. And what I think is interesting about this is one of the reasons he didn't get in trouble for coming out about this stuff. 'Cause you would think, you're literally telling people some really intense fucking secrets.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Right now.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I feel like I watch fucking...
Em Schulz: You gotta go.
Christine Schiefer: I watched Scandal, like people get killed.
Em Schulz: Well, so this is a reason why he is protected, is because, uh, David, he was part of the AARO.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: And that group, uh, their whole job was like working with UAP cases and under President Biden, who just signed this into law in like December, right? They, quote, "Prepared many briefs on unidentified aerial phenomena for Congress while in government and helped draft the language on what a UAP is for the National Defense Authorization Act." And part of this provision is that it states that "Any person with relevant UAP information can inform Congress without retaliation regardless of any previous non-disclosure agreements." So even if you've signed government NDAs, you can go to Congress if you are hearing about something...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: That is, I don't know... I don't know how that's possible or how that's legal, but apparently it is.
Christine Schiefer: I... I mean, I feel like that's, uh, now again, I'm gonna sound like a dummy, but umm, like, umm... What do you call it when they balance... Checks and balances where it's like, we have to have provisions in place so that like the government doesn't just like...
Em Schulz: Do exactly what it's been doing? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, do exactly what it always does every day. [laughter] But like in technicality wise, there are supposed to be provisions that... That allow for, you know, the people, so to speak, to like make sure they're being, I don't know, treated fairly and that people aren't hiding shit.
Em Schulz: So you...
Christine Schiefer: But I can see why that would be like... I didn't know that existed, but it makes sense.
Em Schulz: Well you nailed it because, uh, a lot of sources were saying this is a way for us to handle checks and balances and...
Christine Schiefer: Ahh! See.
Em Schulz: Another source...
Christine Schiefer: I took seventh grade history or something.
Em Schulz: And a source... Another source said it is to encourage potential witnesses to come forward. And the whistleblower legislation forbids any federal employee from retaliating against anyone...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Providing authorized disclosure.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. But again, I've watched Scandal and I know... Oh, not Scandal, what's the one, umm, House of Cards and people get pushed in front of trains and shit. I'm like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, even though they're like, oh, it... It's illegal to do any... To retaliate. It's like, well, I don't know. There's sneaky people out there who might call somebody and have you...
Em Schulz: I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Taken care of. But again that's television.
Em Schulz: Just look at... Just look at our country. I mean, there's technically checks and balances, but.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Fair point.
Em Schulz: You know, Look at the last, I don't know, seven years.
Christine Schiefer: 7,000. Oh, just seven.
Em Schulz: Oh, I'm... I'm... I'm channeling in on Trump, but yes, you're right.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Uh, but yeah, checks and balances, I get your point. Usually it does exist with good intentions and then people still like, get around it, but.
Christine Schiefer: It just goes out of control. Right.
Em Schulz: And I wonder if they thought like, "Oh, well, how many people are really gonna have like, information Congress wouldn't already know." So.
Christine Schiefer: Like crazy amounts of yes. Secret information. Right.
Em Schulz: Maybe they thought they could get away with it, or maybe they thought people with top secret clearance like would like, have some sort of like code where they... Like there is an understood thing where they wouldn't say anything. I don't know. Anyway, because the... I think he already knew that information and he didn't even really plan on saying anything until he got retaliation when questioning about this program that he wanted to join. And so because of a law that he helped write in...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: That... That says like, you cannot get retaliation for information on this or whatever. That was why he filed the complaint 'cause he was like...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: "I know... I know better than anyone that like I shouldn't be getting retaliated on for this."
Christine Schiefer: Right. Don't retaliate on me!
Em Schulz: So the complaint was filed and thus began an official investigation where David has now been having very private conversations with intelligence committees. And here are some of the problems with his story though, because, uh... Well, let me tell, how... I'm trying to remember how I wrote the notes and I feel like... Uh, I'm gonna trust my gut. I wrote it a certain way. I'm gonna keep it that way. So...
Christine Schiefer: That seems like a fun gamble.
Em Schulz: I know. 'cause my gut's never right. Umm. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: At least yours isn't filled with ulcers, but I'm... That wasn't even funny. Sorry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Are we at the QAnon episodes again? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I had half a glass of wine and I'm like, wee, I'm a little crazy today.
Em Schulz: Well, so, uh, one of the problems with him talking to, you know, Congress and now having these interviews done, umm, because now that he's officially a whistleblower, they're looking for evidence. And one of the main issues is that he couldn't actually fully be straightforward with Congressional staffers because they didn't have the same clearance he did. Which we already talked about.
Christine Schiefer: So, okay. Right.
Em Schulz: So maybe that's why people weren't upset about this being signed into law because they were like, "Well, you can't even tell them anyway."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's... That. Yeah... I'm, I'm getting it. I'm catching on.
Em Schulz: So another problem that he had though is that David gave congress hundreds of pages worth of transcriptions of like classified information to like show his case, but he never had any like, physical evidence of any of this. So it was all conjecture.
Christine Schiefer: It was just paperwork, like written up.
Em Schulz: He could have typed it up himself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Umm, he didn't like bring in a spacecraft. You know.
Christine Schiefer: What... Why?
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he wasn't invited to the fucking group.
Em Schulz: They could smell it on him. They were like, you're gonna fucking rat us out. As for the intel that he did have outside of that one program, and I mean he was already a top secret...
Christine Schiefer: Super top.
Em Schulz: Clearance, he... He still knew shit that was worth telling.
Christine Schiefer: He's such a top.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: He definitely does not use the bottom bunk, if you know what I'm saying.
Christine Schiefer: I'm... I'm fucking not... I know. I know what you're saying.
Em Schulz: I know what you're saying. Okay. As for the intel that he did have, David says that he knows multiple levels of UAP operations and the people involved that are also classified. And like that is equally juicy information as far as I'm concerned.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: He said some of them had even... Uh, some of these people had even approached him on their own with concerns they had about the program. And it's...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Illegal wrongdoings.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-ooh. So he's getting a little group here.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so he said... He told Congress it's not just me that like has this information. There are multiple people, there are locations that we've gone to, there are things that we've discussed. It's all classified and I can't reveal all this information to you, but I can revea... I can give it to the inspector general.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And so he was able to list more details of the names and spaces instead of just saying, "I have names and spaces." And some people in these programs even went to the inspector general after he did and confirmed a lot of what David was talking about.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Okay.'cause I was gonna say, were they like, "Uh, leave me out of it." But they participated.
Em Schulz: Not all. There weren't too many, but there were... There were more than one. Like there was at least...
Christine Schiefer: That's good.
Em Schulz: A couple people who were willing to come forward. And so now I'm going to tell you what David... What... Like the craziest things we're now learning about that he whistle blew on.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So David said that we have quite a few crafts, umm, a different anonymous source who did not wanna be named, spoke to some, uh, like a journalist who said that we have somewhere near a dozen crafts.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That like have been retrieved?
Em Schulz: That have been retrieved.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Uh, David also said there's a private aerospace company working with the program and that's where the alien crafts are... Being stored.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: That this one... This one company agreed to be where they store their aircrafts.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: David also said that the US has been competing with other countries for 80 years to understand UFO technology and to advance our own technology with it.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So exploiting the... The crafts.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: David also said that the crafts are made out of things that are not of our planet. He said this is based on the very specific properties that he was briefed on, including isotopic ratios that have to be engineered for it to be at those levels.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: He also said that it's just extremely strange. There are heavy atomic metals high up in the periodic table and arrangements that we don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: Aaah.
Em Schulz: You know, what the emergent properties are, but there's just a very strange mix of elements.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Not only that, David also said that a lot of these crafts are the size of football fields.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And then my personal favorite part to this is not only do we have crafts, he said that we have bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Ah! I knew it.
Em Schulz: On earth. There are aliens on earth currently.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking Knew it. Fucking knew it.
Em Schulz: He said, this is a quote from him. Well...
Christine Schiefer: I'm so wigged out. I feel like they're like listening. You know what I mean?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, he... This is, this is a quote from him. "Naturally, when you recover something that's either landed or crashed, sometimes you encounter dead pilots."
Christine Schiefer: Naturally. It happens to us all.
Em Schulz: Naturally. He said that he has seen some interesting photos and read some very interesting reports.
Christine Schiefer: I love that they're...
Em Schulz: And he was just gonna leave it at that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I love that they're trying to be like, oh, they're trying to reverse engineer these spacecraft to make sure we have the highest technology. I'm like, well, these fucking spacecraft crashed and killed the pilots. So I don't know that we're trying... Like, why are you trying to recreate this exact... I guess maybe just to see what the isotope ratio is or whatever the fuck you said earlier.
Em Schulz: You know, I... I grew up in DC and it was very normal for nobody to know what their parents did for a living.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Because everyone did something with a clearance and they couldn't...
Christine Schiefer: Right. And it was just accepted...
Em Schulz: And it was just normal. Like, oh, what do your parents do? Oh, my mom does this, umm...
Christine Schiefer: They work for the government end of sentence.
Em Schulz: Yeah, work for the government. Or you would just straight up openly say, "I don't know what they do, and they're not allowed to tell me."
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And it was just very normal. So all of a sudden our parents were spies and, uh, it was if...
Christine Schiefer: [cackles] What if Linda is after all this time?
Em Schulz: Un unfortunately, I did not have get to say the cool phrase of, I don't know what my mom does.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: I knew what my... My mom. But I... There were friends that I grew up with my whole life where we would be like, "Oh, your dad's obviously a spy. Oh, your mom's a spy. Ha ha."
Christine Schiefer: Like, we all know ha ha.
Em Schulz: And then like, eventually I feel like we grew up and some of them probably like are gonna retire soon and be like, "By the way, I was a fucking spy." But.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We'll never know. Anyway. Well, we may know. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: We may know.
Em Schulz: Not yet. Not yet. But, uh, I will s...
Christine Schiefer: Imagine if I could say, "My dad's a whistleblower. That's what my dad does."
Em Schulz: You don't get a chance to say it 'cause you're packing your bags. Umm, but.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, true. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But, uh, you know, imagine being one of those kids in DC or some other, like near Roswell, I'm sure there's kids who grew up with that. And they just had to say, "Oh, I don't know what my mom does for a living."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And someone, someone has a kid that's been saying that at school and they go to work and literally probably operate on these dead alien bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. And they're like, "What do I tell my friends that you do?" And they're like...
Em Schulz: Like I...
Christine Schiefer: "I can't even come up with anything. Just say, I don't know."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, they can't even come up with a better lie.
Em Schulz: Like, I had one friend who always said, "Oh... " Or her dad always said, "Oh, I work for the government. I work for the government." And then we grew up and found out that like, yeah, he worked at the Pentagon, but he had like the most boring job there possible. Like once he...
Christine Schiefer: Oh boo.
Em Schulz: Once he retired he was like, "I was an accountant. But I couldn't say that because it was like the clients or something." But like, umm, there is someone...
Christine Schiefer: He just wanted to sound cool. No, I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: Right. But there is someone out there who's like at... Who's like cooking dinner, having to keep in their own head, I operated on an alien or I collected a spacecraft today.
Christine Schiefer: I just wonder. Yeah. They're like making spaghetti bolognese and their hands are glowing green and they're like, [laughter] "Hmm. I'm just an accountant. That's all. Don't worry about it."
Em Schulz: Actually, that would be the best twist is like, even when you retire, you're still like sworn because it was so intense. You just...
Christine Schiefer: That would be terrible.
Em Schulz: Today I have a second alias.
Christine Schiefer: I hope on your deathbed you get to say it or like through a Ouija board or something.
Em Schulz: That Should be one of our listeners' episodes. Did anyone on their deathbed, did any of our grandparents admit?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Great idea.
Em Schulz: Anyway, there you go.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Did anybody... Any deathbed confessions.
Em Schulz: Any...
Christine Schiefer: That would be such a good listeners' episode.
Em Schulz: Did you ever have dinner and your dad's hands were glowing and you didn't know why?
Christine Schiefer: Or that [laughter] those two things.
Em Schulz: He said that there... David said that they were... There were bodies. He saw interesting photos and read interesting reports. He also said, uh, kind of half vaguely that the government, as you said earlier, would kill people to keep the secret. Umm, he said...
Christine Schiefer: Okay I yeah, I... I it's not just TV, it's real. Okay, great. Oh.
Em Schulz: He said, "At the very least I saw substantive evidence that white collar crime was committed, unfortunately.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: I've heard some really un-American things I don't wish to repeat right now."
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy. Oh, boyo.
Em Schulz: She's like, oh my goodness. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my, my.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then the last thing that he really said was during an interview with NewsNation Now, and David said, "I think the logical fallacy, uh, is because they're advanced, they're kind. We'll never really understand their full intent. And that's because we are not them. But I think what appears to me malevolent activity has happened."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no.
Em Schulz: That's based on... That's based on nuclear site probing activities and witness testimony. When asked if human beings have been injured or killed by non-human intelligence, uh, Grusch avoided getting into details.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: He said, "While I can't get into the specifics because that would reveal certain US classified operations... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: "I was briefed by a few individuals on the program that there were malevolent events like that."
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So that's a yes. So that's a fucking yes.
Christine Schiefer: So, so yeah.
Em Schulz: Many people also say, uh, that even though all of this sounds real crazy, David is worth trusting. Many of his, like very senior officer cohorts have called him 'beyond reproach and having the strongest possible moral compass'.
Christine Schiefer: Wow!
Em Schulz: And a lot of people still back him, but there is some like obvious skepticism. The main one being that this... All this information first came out in an article on 'thedebrief.com'.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And according to Vanity Fair, the original article was originally passed to, umm, the by Politico, the New York Times, the Washington Post. And all of them said they didn't want the article.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Umm, now some people could go back and say like, "Oh, that's because they didn't wanna reveal the... The truth and get in trouble or something." But a lot... There were. Each of them had different valid reasons for why they didn't want to release it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: One of them was like, they felt rushed to publish it at a certain amount of time before they could like really research and make sure all their facts were right. Like there was... Some of it felt a little odd and so they just kept passing on it and eventually it went to The Debrief, which happens to be a UFO friendly publication, but...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. UFO friendly. I didn't know that was a classification, but I love it.
Em Schulz: I think it's like, oh, well they're not... Not World Weekly World News, but you know, they're not New York Times either. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: But the article was written by two very, like renowned writers. One of them has spent almost 50 years at the New York Times.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, his name was Ralph Blumenthal and then the other author was Leslie Kean, who is an investigative science journalist who has written about UFOs before. And the two of them both collaborated on the 2017 report that leaked the videos that led to the AATIP.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh Okay.
Em Schulz: So one of the other problems outside of it being passed on by like credible sources, is that David and all of his quotes, even if he really has seen all of this stuff, he's only seen things or heard things and, uh, it just doesn't feel like he has any physical evidence he can offer anybody. But then again, even if he could talk about it, they would just say, "Oh, well it's too classified to even hear anyway." So like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: There's a back and forth on... On like, do we really just trust this random guy? But he has incredibly high top secret clearance and people who are backing him...
Christine Schiefer: And like, why would he do this to risk his job and potentially his life?
Em Schulz: Well, that's a great point.
Christine Schiefer: Or livelihood.
Em Schulz: So other people say... Other people say, for him to just go to Congress, you don't just get to lie to Congress. Like he...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Especially about something so intense.
Christine Schiefer: They don't... They don't... They kinda frown upon that. I think...
Em Schulz: It is illegal and also like...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Oh. I'm like, they frown upon it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, but like the fact that he would go to congress, risk his like clearance, his job, his pension, his friends, like his respect...
Christine Schiefer: His family's safety and wellbeing. Like Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like there's no reason to just go up and make a lie when like everything would be threatened.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Especially about something that big where you could be like killed for all you know about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but there have been some senior officers that have openly backed David. Uh, one of them who also has top clearance. His name was Jonathan Gray. But the, uh, problem with that is that Jonathan Gray was apparently his alias because he wanted to be anonymous.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And so now we don't know who he was and now it's just like, it could be any random person saying I defend him. Plus, uh, all of his quotes said that he had heard of classified briefings. Not that he'd actually seen a fucking...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Alien or a spaceship. So it was still vague. Umm, and since he also never heard or saw anything personally and his name was shady, it just all feels kind of shady. Plus David's vague, uh, retaliation statement makes that hard to define because he won't talk about it. And even if he could, it's from classified programs that don't wanna get involved. So they would probably just not say anything. So it's a lot of, you know, guess yourself, what you think the truth is. Interestingly...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Only four days after whistle blowing David's attorneys publicly ended their relationship with him.
Christine Schiefer: Uh oh!
Em Schulz: And so that could be shady in a few ways.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It could be like, oh, well did the government pay them off to like, keep him from having a defense? And like, so I... It again...
Christine Schiefer: Or did they realize, like on the other hand, like playing devil's advocate, is it like, oh they realized he was not...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Trustworthy. And they were like, nevermind. You know, it's like how you can even argue one way or the other. Because it like could be a lot of things that they dropped him for.
Em Schulz: They put out a press release, but to me it felt kind of not clear. It just said, "The whistle-blower disclosure did not speak to the specifics of the classified information." Like it was like a bunch of like words over words, it felt...
Christine Schiefer: Mumbo jumbo.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And they said, "The substance of that information has always been outside the scope of our firm's representation." So it's just like, "Oh, well we don't... " Maybe it's that they didn't have enough classified information that they could even know what was going on to help him. I don't know. But David ended up leaving the government in April after all of this, to, quote, "advance government accountability through his public awareness. And he's willing to speak to anyone in Washington who has the clearance to hear the classified information." So he is like, I'm going to fucking keep my mouth open. I'm telling people if they're willing to listen...
Christine Schiefer: Good for him.
Em Schulz: And as long as they have the clearance... And meanwhile the House Intelligence Committee is being questioned and the House Oversight Committee is going to be investigated, uh, the date TBA. And of course the Pentagon has made a statement saying that the claims are unsubstantiated and the AARO has not had any evidence that alien life is real. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, of course they say that.
Em Schulz: Anyway. That is our... Our topical government whistle-blower.
Christine Schiefer: I gotta say... They're lying.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, yeah, I agree.
Christine Schiefer: Allegedly.
Em Schulz: Allegedly I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em, I... Like, it drives me crazy because it's like, I feel like there's so much coming out and then there's still people who are like, "Oh no, that's crazy that you would believe in extraterrestrials." And I'm like, I feel like it's crazy to not believe that, but...
Em Schulz: I do too.
Christine Schiefer: But what do I know? You know.
Em Schulz: Lest we look back at that episode where I covered the Fermi paradox, where it's like sta...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, exactly.
Em Schulz: Statistically us being alone is so small.
Christine Schiefer: But then the point of the paradox, which also throws me big time for a loop, which when you covered that episode, I feel like it like blew my mind. I still tell people about the Fermi paradox, umm, because then where are they? And it's like... It's like the whole point of the paradox is like, obviously there must be more out there, but where the fuck are they?
Em Schulz: Sometimes I just have to pretend to myself that like, you know how they say dogs can't like see the color green or something? It's like they just don't have the sense for it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: I just have to tell myself like, we just can't see it.
Christine Schiefer: I think that a lot. It's like we just don't understand a certain layer of reality or like we just can't access a certain dimension or it... It's something beyond our scope of understanding.
Em Schulz: It's kind of like ghosts 'cause, uh, I...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I heard somebody say that, uh, when someone dies... Like it was their way of handling grief of like, "Oh, when someone dies, it's not that they're gone, you just lose like a couple senses." Like they're still there, but like all of a sudden you can't see them or hear them, but they're still chilling. And I mean, dogs and cats and animals clearly have those senses...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: 'Cause they see shit. They're looking at corners and looking around the room. So it... But I... But I feel like that with aliens too, where I'm like, if it can happen with ghosts, it can happen with aliens. I just feel like I... Maybe I'm grateful that I don't have that sense because if I could, I'd be screaming my head off every five seconds.
Christine Schiefer: No, you're... That's a totally good point. 'Cause it's like, well I wanna know, but like, do I?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I just wanna like, put conjecture out there and just bullshit and... And hope I never really find out. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Umm, before we tell your story, can I show you something?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Always.
Em Schulz: I think you're gonna like it. Hang on. I'm trying to set it up because...
Christine Schiefer: Is this part of the show?
Em Schulz: Yeah, well...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and it...
Em Schulz: I mean it... It's about to be.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I didn't know if you wanted Jack to cut.
Em Schulz: Oh no, no, no. Like it's part of like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: Other people can know about it. I just wanted to brag about Allison really quick.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: So, this was, uh, my birthday gift. I wish I knew...
Christine Schiefer: Show me, show me, show me, show me, show me.
Em Schulz: I wish I knew the name.
Christine Schiefer: Gio. I'm sorry. Gio has been gone for like a week, 'cause 'cause I've been traveling and I haven't seen him until now.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Come here baby. Oh, he's just looking for food on the floor. Come here.
Em Schulz: Wow. He literally didn't care about you the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: 0%. Come here. Well to be fair, I dropped him off and didn't pick him up for a week. Come here.
Em Schulz: Oh, what a puppy.
Christine Schiefer: He's literally looking for food. He gives zero shits about me. Great.
Em Schulz: What an asshole.
Christine Schiefer: Come here. There he is. Come here.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: Oh, he's a baby.
Christine Schiefer: Come here.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Here's my baby. Ah, here's my baby. No wonder he doesn't wanna participate.
Em Schulz: I miss him so much. He's my favorite napping buddy.
Christine Schiefer: I missed you buddy. Can I put you on camera?
Em Schulz: Oh dog, it's a fuzzy little face.
Christine Schiefer: There you go. Hi.
Em Schulz: Hi Gio.
Christine Schiefer: Look, he's under his own portrait...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Look at his...
Christine Schiefer: I missed you. Did you have fun at Derek's house? That's his dog sitter.
Em Schulz: Derek. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Derek. It's so funny. He sends the best photos. Hi. Okay. Anyway, I'm so sorry. Let's brag about your girlfriend.
Em Schulz: No, I... I, trust me, Gio is always number one. Okay. I wanted to show you something that I think I really like. I wish I got... I knew the name. Allison can probably tell me the name, but it was an Etsy shop and because I love, first of all little things...
Christine Schiefer: Yes you do.
Em Schulz: Little trinkets. And I love an apothecary. She got on Etsy, a little apothecary shelf.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] That is stinking adorable.
Em Schulz: Ah, things are falling. But there's like... There's also things in the drawers and like, do you see that? And like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm trying not to talk so the camera stays on you.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well here there's little things in the drawers and then my favorite thing, there's like a little Ouija board and all the jars and they all move so I can play with them.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] It's like your own little doll house.
Em Schulz: I know. And...
Christine Schiefer: Your spooky doll house.
Em Schulz: My favorite part is one of the books on the shelf you ready?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No.
Em Schulz: It's us. It's us.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: I almost joke jokingly said it's not our book, is it? As a joke. And then it was our book.
Em Schulz: I wish it would focus better. Is there like a...
Christine Schiefer: You need to do the like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Oh, there. Okay. So here's us. This is our little bookie and she's cute. She's cute. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: This makes me so thrilled 'cause it means I made it into your little doll house. [giggles]
Em Schulz: It... It's like... It's like we got trapped in there or something, but we've got this whole second life. Anyway, I... I just, it's sitting right here and I forgot to show it to you last week, but...
Christine Schiefer: That is such a cute little gifty. I love it.
Em Schulz: So now I can play with it whenever I want and I've got a teeny book and I've got the big book and I have got baby...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: Anyway, it's a good time.
Christine Schiefer: Lemme know... Lemme know if you want me to sign it for you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Umm, anyway, I didn't mean to steal from the show, but I... I thought people might also enjoy that. I'll...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's so cute.
Em Schulz: If we post a picture of it or something on the... The Instagram. I'll get the Etsy person's name.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Great idea. Do... So do they make custom ones or was that just like Al made the book separately?
Em Schulz: No, uh, they also made our book.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Very exciting stuff.
Christine Schiefer: That is such a cute idea.
Em Schulz: Anyway, uh, didn't mean to steal from our regular stuff, but also we got a Gio situation.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Gio is...
Em Schulz: We got the bookshelf.
Christine Schiefer: Gio is being very, umm, up in my business, but I guess I asked him for that. He's so sweet. He's so sweet. He's, umm...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: And all... It's also weird cause he smells like someone else's house, you know?
Em Schulz: Mmmh. It's like he's cheating on you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It feels a little bit like, I'm like, "Where's that perfume on your collar from?"
Em Schulz: Derek wears perfume? Okay, Derek.
Christine Schiefer: I know. [laughter] Maybe. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, okay. Okay. Gio's over it. Bye. Umm...
Em Schulz: Bye Gigi.
Christine Schiefer: All right. Should I tell you a story?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Also, I don't think I've shown you my like little lap desk that I have.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: It... It's my little cool, like western... You know how I love cowboys and cowboy ghosts, I bought like...
Em Schulz: You are...
Christine Schiefer: This little...
Em Schulz: I know you've always liked cowboys, but you are going through like a new style phase recently.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It is. And I... I think it's just like to like experiment, you know?
Em Schulz: I think it makes sense because you've always been a cactus girly and like, so that's, I think it's...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: An easy transition.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I like kind of, umm, cacti. Yeah. I was like, "What do I like?" [chuckle] Yeah. Cactus. That's it.
Em Schulz: All right.
Christine Schiefer: You nailed it. I can't think of anything else. Umm, I don't know, there's something about it. I just, uh, it just spoke to me, you know? Oh, Em.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The story.
Em Schulz: Doozy?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I dunno if it's just me.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm sure it's not just me, but for some reason this one like, I was like, "Oh, this will be an interesting case." And then it was so... It like really screwed me up for a little bit.
Em Schulz: Oh, really?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: More than normal?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Was there anything new to it, or were you just in a particular mood?
Christine Schiefer: That's a good question. There... There is definitely quite a twist that from an outside perspective, looks very like, whoa, that's fascinating and horrible, obviously. But then when I started researching it and like watching videos on it, I was like, "This is just making me really sad." [laughter] So, you know, I... I'm not sure, umm, I'm gonna refill my wine before I tell you, and I... I... I just, you know, obviously this doesn't need to be said, but I'll say it anyway, that like, all our stories are...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: All my stories, at least, for the most part are very sad. Umm, and often like very fucked up. And I never wanna compare and contrast them in that way or rank them, so to speak. But sometimes they just hit me different, you know? Umm, but this is the story of Ryan Waller and...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm feeling like probably you don't know this because I didn't know it, is that true?
Em Schulz: I definitely don't know who Ryan Waller is.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So... 'Cause I never know what you just accidentally stumbled upon on like, umm, one of your...
Em Schulz: That's fair.
Christine Schiefer: Rabbit holes one night. Umm, which is always a pleasant surprise when you're like, "I know about this." And I'm like, "You probably know more than I do."
Em Schulz: Look after the Duggars I, uh, I... I think I've officially [laughter] checked out on ever being helpful again.
Christine Schiefer: You knew the Jared Fogle too, a bit. Like you knew stuff about that too.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's true. That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and since we just brought both those up and I literally said, if this comes up in this episode, I'll mention... Otherwise it'll be next episode. I'll just throw it out there now that, umm, Eva and our social media, uh, manager Megan pointed out a really, uh, interesting thing. Which is that a lot of our listeners or some of our listeners who are more, you know, uh, I guess aware of like updated terminology, that kind of thing, umm, mentioned that the phrase child pornography is a phrase we're trying to get away from. And I know I use that probably quite a bit in, umm, both the...
Em Schulz: Both, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The... The... The, uh, Jared Fogle and the Duggars. And so I just wanna point out, and I didn't... I wasn't aware of this and so thank you to everybody who apparently very kindly like, just let us know. Umm, and you didn't know either, right? Is this new to both us...
Em Schulz: I had no idea. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I didn't either. I don't know. Maybe Eva knew, but I wasn't aware. But apparently... And it makes total sense. Like the second Eva explained it, I was like, "Well, duh." 'Cause pornography is a consensual...
Em Schulz: Like act.
Christine Schiefer: Form of film, or like a...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And so you obviously can't have child pornography. Umm, and so the phrase, I guess is child abuse imagery is the phrase that, that's kind of, uh, more accurate. So, you know, apologies for... For saying that incorrectly, but you know, we're all learning together.
Em Schulz: It's a fun fact for all of us to learn now.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Well, maybe not fun, but a fact.
Christine Schiefer: It's... I mean, to be honest, it's the most fun fact, fun fact of all our fun facts because like, none of our fun facts are fun. And the whole point is they're fucked up. So it actually...
Em Schulz: It's a...
Christine Schiefer: Really nails it.
Em Schulz: Sure. [laughter] It's certainly a topical fact for us since we'll probably...
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Unfortunately be talking about it in the future.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's very relevant. And I feel like, like on a platform like this, I feel so fortunate that I get to learn things like this and then share them with people because I... I... I imagine a lot of people out there haven't thought twice about it. You know?
Em Schulz: I... We are very lucky that we have microphones and get to scream things as soon as we learn them into the...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Into the void. So...
Christine Schiefer: Like Harry Reid, former president who also like hand couried, uh, Al-Qaeda to, umm...
Em Schulz: Saddam Hussein...
Christine Schiefer: The Pentagon.
Em Schulz: Or whatever. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] You know, umm, all the intelligent things we say. But yeah, just an FYI, since both of those episodes just got brought up. But that is not relevant for my story today, the Ryan Waller case. I'm just gonna get into it, Em. It's been a couple days since I really went through these notes. I hope it doesn't like fuck me up again the same way, maybe I was just really tired. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Drink some wine.
Christine Schiefer: You let... You lemme, uh, [chuckle] on it. Thank you.
Em Schulz: The, the whole point of the show, and that's why we drink, we drink because...
Christine Schiefer: Literally.
Em Schulz: We're escaping the situation.
Christine Schiefer: Escapism. That's what I'm doing. So Ryan Waller, he was born February of 1988 and grew up slightly north of Phoenix, Arizona.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He had a knack for music. He taught himself guitar. He was one of those people, I know a couple of them who could hear a song and then just like, play it.
Em Schulz: Ugh. What a skill.
Christine Schiefer: To be that person, like I would give so much because the amount... 16 years of piano lessons, I can barely play like row, row, row your boat. Like, it's just ridiculous.
Em Schulz: It is such a... I mean, talk about like a... A bar trick.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Or party trick in general.
Christine Schiefer: Or a TikTok trend. Like I... Remember that dad who could do that.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That girl who would like post her dad doing it. I was always just so amazed. And I had a friend who could do that and it drove me crazy, 'cause I'm like, "What pi... Who's your piano teacher?" She's like, "I don't take piano lessons." And I was like, "I'm gonna kill you."
Em Schulz: It's like, don't gatekeep me, please.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Let's just like back the fuck off. You know what I mean? I know you're gonna be a TikTok star one day, okay?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: And also if you're trying to be a TikTok star and you have that skill, there's your fucking skill.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking go for it 'cause I'll watch it all day, every day.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so he wanted to pursue music after high school. He was really big into music, very talented. And uh, now fast forward to 2006. Ryan is 18 years old. He's living in Phoenix, Arizona with his girlfriend, Heather Quan.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Now, Heather was born in 1985. She and Ryan had known each other since they were little kids, they'd grown up together and at this point, Heather was 21 and she had graduated from Glendale Community College and was a pre-law student...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: At Arizona State University. Incidentally, where I'm going tomorrow, Tempe to read one star reviews of Arizona State and Glendale Community College, so.
Em Schulz: Okay. Everyone can do something there.
Christine Schiefer: Full circle. [laughter] So she was a local volunteer with Big Brothers Big Sisters and, umm, I mean, here's a spoiler. Her obituary later read.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I know. "From a very young age, Heather seemed to sense when another was hurting and gave her friendship to those who needed it most. She was a strong-willed individual who not only lived life, but loved it."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So just like a... A beautiful soul. And it was sometime around Christmas of 2006 and the date itself, like the specific day is a little controversial, we're gonna get to that. But it was around Christmas of 2006, Ryan and Heather were at home enjoying the evening when they heard a loud noise at the back door.
Em Schulz: Okay. I hate that immediately.
Christine Schiefer: This is where everything goes to shit. It turned out to be a man named Richie Carver and his father Larry Carver breaking in through the sliding glass door of the home.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: If you have a sliding glass door, and I know a lot of you do, fucking put something in there, a big wooden stick or something so people, even if they break the lock can't open it.
Em Schulz: I... Yes, but I am also not trying to terrify you, but a lot of sliding glass doors are just glass if you really wanted to get in. I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean?
Em Schulz: A sliding glass door couldn't you just kick it through?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, but at least in that way everyone would either hear it or, uh, you know, a lot of people...
Em Schulz: Oh, you have like, you have a longer chance of getting away.
Christine Schiefer: I just don't... Like, a lot of times people can pick those sliding locks and like just sneak on in, you know, at least...
Em Schulz: Or he can just yank it hard enough and it'll come off.
Christine Schiefer: Or yank it and break the lock. At least put like something there to like keep it... I mean, those doors are pretty fucking solid. And I know some of you're saying, "I ran through one of those and broke it once 'cause I'm... " You know, we've all been there. But [laughter], at least if you have like something in place, you know and...
Em Schulz: Yeah. You've got at least 30 more seconds of time or something.
Christine Schiefer: At least a little bit more awareness if someone's trying to break in. So they heard a loud noise and it was a man named Richie Carver, his father Larry Carver, they were breaking in through the sliding glass door. Now, according to police and the media, Richie was Ryan's former roommate.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But that's wrong.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Because there is a lot of misinformation that circulated about this case. Basically, what the media did was, which it... It's so wild to me 'cause you were just talking about how the media was like, "I don't know, we don't have enough information about these UFO stories to release a report." Meanwhile, on this story, they're just taking literal...
Em Schulz: Everything.
Christine Schiefer: Interrogation. So they... They were watch, they, they had the clips of the interrogation like footage and they just used that as fact. So like they had interrogation videos of police interviewing suspects.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And they used that...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: As factual information. Which is like...
Em Schulz: Cool.
Christine Schiefer: Not it. That's not it, you know.
Em Schulz: It's possible to report on anything apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You could say anything in an interrogation room, that doesn't mean it's a valid fact that the news should be printing. But in any case, umm, the media used these interviews for information then published them without confirming or corroborating anything. And anyway, in 2021, uh, there was a channel on YouTube called This is Monsters and they published an hour-long video called Searching for Justice, the Ryan Waller story.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Now, this documentary, it's basically a YouTube documentary features interviews with Ryan's father and... And essentially seeks to clear up misinformation that was spread about the case. And there is a lot of information, a lot of the stuff in these notes came from that video. So if you want like a, a more visual way to, you know, learn about this case, go check out This is Monsters. Umm, they did a really good job on this case. Ryan's dad explained that Richie and Ryan were never roommates. In fact, the reality was Richie, the one who's breaking in, used to live in that apartment before Ryan and Heather moved in.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. So he was a previous tenant.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly.
Em Schulz: That's why people probably mixed it into roommate.
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: No?
Christine Schiefer: Yes-ish. It it was said in an interrogation that they were roommates. I just don't wanna give too much away.
Em Schulz: Got it. Okay. Well you've given nothing away. I don't don't know what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Good. It was just not a... I'm sorry. It was just not a reliable fact to say they were roommates.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But they were former tenants. Richie was a former tenant of this apartment.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Richie has a sealed juvenile record stretching back to his early teenage years. He'd been arrested for assault, armed robbery. He served four years in prison for a stabbing. And his father Larry, had been arrested several times for domestic violence, assault, weapon misconduct, and theft. Which then makes me a little bit sad because it's like a father-son...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The father has such a long record, including domestic assault. So, you know, the son grew up with this and is now almost... I mean, I was gonna say almost a partner in crime, a literal partner in crime to his own father.
Em Schulz: Literal.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it... It... So that's kind of a bummer. So once Heather and Ryan had moved into this place, Richie was not living there anymore. They moved in with their roommate, Alicia and Richie actually visited the apartment twice. Uh, and he asked if he had any mail that might have been delivered to his old address and they were like, "No, thanks for stopping by." So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Go away.
Christine Schiefer: Go away. My guess is he was kind of just scoping out who lived there, seeing what they might have had. You know, he knew the access points to the apartment. He had lived there. One night, this was before the break-in, Ryan and Heather actually caught Richie in their backyard.
Em Schulz: Oh, ew.
Christine Schiefer: Scoping around snooping.
Em Schulz: Casing.
Christine Schiefer: Casing the joint. And guess what he claimed he was looking for.
Em Schulz: The sliding glass door or what?
Christine Schiefer: Literally, you're never gonna guess it. He claimed he was looking for a four foot long iguana that had escaped when he lived in the house.
Em Schulz: That was like my third guess.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Fair. I probably should have given you another two chances you would've gotten it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yeah. He said that there was an iguana that lived there when he was in the house and it had escaped. So he was just looking for his iguana, which is like, you know what, go home.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You're full... You're full of shit. Go home. Why are you in the back? Why are you in the backyard? Like months later, go away.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I can't imagine my pet escaping at a new house and now going to the old house thinking, oh, maybe it followed my scent all the way to my old home or something. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: And... And also like put up a poster outside.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Why don't you knock on the door and say, "Have you seen a giant iguana in your backyard? That's mine."
Em Schulz: Go to your current yard and go, "Iguana, [laughter] iguana."
Christine Schiefer: Iggy.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Well, I guess he had a different method.
Christine Schiefer: I guess... I guess he did and it didn't work. So that's unfortunate. Fast forward to now. Richie is breaking into Ryan's house and he has a gun.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Ryan and Heather are just having a relaxing evening right near Christmas. They hear a noise, they get up, they go toward the sliding glass doors to see what's going on. Richie pulls out his gun and shoots Ryan directly in the head.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, I thought Ryan was going to... Okay, keep going.
Christine Schiefer: Ryan falls back. The two men barge in past him. Richie turns and shoots Ryan in the head a second time to make sure he is dead. At this point, Heather is considered a liability.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She has witnessed everything in front of her, and she is shot and killed as well. The men take guitars, electronics, whatever they can grab and make their getaway. And the media also, just like a side note, said they... That these people stole several guns from Ryan. But it turns out Ryan only had one handgun, which was a gift from his grandfather, and he had never actually used it and it wasn't even stolen. So like that information was also completely incorrect. But apparently the neighbors heard nothing, which is pretty shocking to me being an apartment and shooting off several bullets. But in any case, there were no reports of disturbances that came in that day.
Christine Schiefer: Ryan and Heather were supposed to go to a family Christmas dinner on the night of Christmas Day, December 25th, but they didn't show up. And that's when Ryan's dad, Don Waller, tried calling Ryan several times, but it kept going to voicemail. So he's starting to get nervous and he and his wife go to his son Ryan's house, but nobody answers the door. So Don calls the police and says, "I need you to conduct a wellness check. I don't know where my son is. He was supposed to see us on Christmas day and we've been calling, calling, nobody's picking up." But since it wasn't an emergency as far as everyone knew, they had to wait for a call back. So Don and his wife went to get coffee, and in the meantime, uh, Alicia, the roommate got home.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: She walked straight to her bedroom and did not even see...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Ryan or Heather.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: She had n...
Em Schulz: I don't know what the layout of the apartment is, but I'm like, how did you not notice.
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? It's like, I... I imagine as someone who's very oblivious, like I imagine it's just they had run to the sliding glass door maybe in the back, and she just went in and went to her bedroom and didn't look. But whatever the case, she just did not notice that they were there. So when Don returned, the police called back and said they would be there at midnight. And so Ryan's parents sat in their car and just waited for hours.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So all said it took roughly three to four hours for the wellness check to begin. From the time that Don called. So police finally arrived and they shined a flashlight into a window and believed they saw a body inside.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, they did.
Em Schulz: Sure did.
Christine Schiefer: So legally they could have entered, and in my opinion, should have entered the home immediately on the suspicion that somebody was either dead or injured. But instead, they ignored protocol and filed a warrant to enter the home. Which is like the most jarring thing to me because as someone who lives in Kentucky, and when the Breonna Taylor story happened in, in 2020 where Louisville Police just like fucking burst into her home and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Just shot her because... And it was the wrong address. And now meanwhile, it's like they see a body on the ground, but they're like, "Well, let's call the judge and see if we're allowed to go in." And it's like...
Em Schulz: Excellent point.
Christine Schiefer: Right? It's like, where's the fucking? Whatever. Anyway, so they wait for a warrant to come in, and it was another hour before this warrant comes through, and then they get a locksmith to come and unlock the door. And so when they couldn't get the front door unlocked, they tried another back door and they couldn't get through that door either. Then they're at the door, they're trying to figure out how to pick the lock, and the door opens. It's Ryan.
Em Schulz: Okay. I know, I know he's supposed to be dead, but this, this goes back to my... I was like, I...
Christine Schiefer: You... You had a... Yeah, You're an empath.
Em Schulz: I was like, "Oh, they're... " Yeah, well they're... I was like, they're gonna shoot him in the head. I thought he was the main character of the story. Okay. So he's been just like... Hang on. So was this a... Like that last story I told where he had a head injury and was just walking around covered in blood and didn't know what was going on, or did he just survive and he was lying there this whole time?
Christine Schiefer: We don't know.
Em Schulz: How? He couldn't tell us?
Christine Schiefer: You'll see.
Em Schulz: Okay. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they... He.
Em Schulz: So he's there he's there.
Christine Schiefer: He answers the door, he is alive, he's conscious. His left eye had... He has a black eye and his eye is swollen shut.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And he seemed confused and disoriented. And so they... They... They enter the home, they find Heather, she's dead on the couch where she had been presumably lying and or sitting. And they shot her. They removed Ryan from the home and handcuff him, put him in the back of a police car. And Don is there like, "Wait, I was just trying to get a wellness check. Now there's... You know, uh, they're arresting my son." But police will not let him near his son. They said Ryan was fine. He just had a black eye. We're taking him in to...
Em Schulz: Black eye... He got shot in the head twice.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He wasn't covered in blood?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: You can't tell me. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't... I don't believe so.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they put him in the back of the police car and he sits there for nearly four hours. Paramedics arrived to treat Heather, but she had been dead for two days. After confirming her death, paramedics left without ever even examining Ryan, let alone treating him.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He insisted he had been shot in the eye, but nobody would listen to him. And an officer told him if he had been shot in the head, he would be dead.
Em Schulz: Okay. I already don't like him. I don't like the cop.
Christine Schiefer: The officer?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, certainly not. Despite his visible injuries, uh, police transported Ryan to the station to be immediately interrogated instead of a hospital. And even though they didn't believe Ryan's story of being shot, they were still legally required to give him medical attention for the visible injuries he had, but they just skipped over that.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So the police... Yeah, yeah. It's really bad. So the police were sure at this point Ryan had killed Heather and there was just a black eye from a fight they had gotten into, and he was just making some crazy story up about getting shot to like cover up murdering his girlfriend.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they took his clothes as evidence and immediately began the questioning. And off the bat it was very fucking clear. This story makes me so mad that something was seriously wrong because in the interrogation videos, which side note, once again are the ones the media used to report quote unquote "facts."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In the interrogation videos, Ryan is sitting up, he has his feet up on the chair, he's leaning his head in his hand. He looks like he's about to fall asleep, and he keeps like holding his own head up. Like he can't even sit up properly.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. This guy got shot all the way through.
Christine Schiefer: Twice!
Em Schulz: Something happened...
Christine Schiefer: Twice!
Em Schulz: Something... I don't know what it is medically, but I believe a bullet went in and then out of his head.
Christine Schiefer: You are correct.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: His eye is so bruised and swollen that like, if you look at the screen, it looks just like a big black spot. Like that's how bad the injury is.
Em Schulz: Like he doesn't have an eye?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Literally. Like he's been just shot in the fucking eye! Wouldn't you... Wouldn't... Wouldn't, you know.
Em Schulz: I don't know how you could look someone in the hole where your eye's supposed to be and say, "You didn't get shot in the eye."
Christine Schiefer: You're full of shit.
Em Schulz: Mm-hm.
Christine Schiefer: So in the video... This is horrible. You can even see a hole where one of the bullets entered through his nose.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, if we can see this on footage from 2006, presumably the police could fucking see it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. A pixelated CCTV.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Can see it. I'm pretty sure...
Christine Schiefer: We all know those interrogation cameras are shitty.
Em Schulz: Let's just go right into this with an ACAB, shall we? Because like, I... How do you, unless like steer me the other direction if I'm on the wrong side of the story? But I don't know how you can look at someone shot and then be like, "Well, not even a medical clearance is necessary."
Christine Schiefer: It's... It's such a gross mishandling of this entire situation. Because even if he had murdered his girlfriend and gotten punched in the eye, legally he's required to get medical attention.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And like that is the farthest thing from what happened. But even if they believed, oh you asshole, you killed your girlfriend, you got injured, we don't care. It's like... I... I don't know. I mean, we see it all the time with like people being hurt and them being like, "Oh, you'll... You're fine." And then...
Em Schulz: But they... But then we also don't even know for sure that he did it yet. So like I... Like, it'd be one thing they wouldn't even, but I... It could see them like having some sort of weird, like apprehension to helping him if they knew for sure he was a murderer.
Christine Schiefer: If it was... Good point.
Em Schulz: But like, they don't even know that, like, this could be for all, you know, someone who was, I don't know, well a victim of getting shot in the fucking eye.
Christine Schiefer: Getting attacked. Right. That's a great point. They don't even fucking know. They just think he did it. So it's really disturbing. The footage is really disturbing. Umm, maybe watching it is what fucked me up. I'm not sure. But it's just upsetting. And he seems totally disconnected from the situation, from the surroundings. Umm, he's either in shock and like, I'm no doctor, but he's either in shock or just like has a brain injury from getting shot in the fucking head. But for some reason he's totally disconnected from reality. He's confused, he's disoriented, he's in pain. And the detective Paul Dalton began with simple questions like, What grade did you complete in school? And Ryan like literally couldn't answer. Like he was so disoriented. He couldn't answer.
Em Schulz: Disoriented or his brain got shot.
Christine Schiefer: Or shot in the head. Right, exactly. So he continually... He continually made small, confused sounds like grunts and moans. And he would give conflic...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: It I know, it... It physically.
Em Schulz: That's heartbreaking.
Christine Schiefer: It hurts me. Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: Well now I know why you were so fucked up after the story.
Christine Schiefer: Right? It made me so upset. Like physically hurting. It is...
Em Schulz: Well 'cause you're watching someone who needs help and can be helped and isn't getting help.
Christine Schiefer: Desperately, desperately. Like, oh, it hur... It hurts to watch. And he kept giving conflicting answers to small questions. So like, the detective asked Ryan if he had a girlfriend, Ryan said no. When asked if he knew Heather and what her last name was, Ryan said, "The one who lives there right now. I don't know what she's trying to use as her last name." Like, he's just...
Em Schulz: Like, he's obviously not okay.
Christine Schiefer: Out of it. Yes, he's not okay at all.
Em Schulz: I don't know what she's trying to use as her last name. That's a string of words, my friend. That you're...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah it means nothing. It's mumbo jumbo.
Em Schulz: It sounds like... Like that's the equivalent to someone like having a stroke or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yes!
Em Schulz: And like.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And like just kind of piecing words together.
Christine Schiefer: Just saying things in response that don't actually mean anything that aren't correct. It's like when someone's sleep talking and you're like, the things you're saying just don't make sense.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's... That's exactly what it is. And when he... When the officer asked, what is Heather's age? He said 16 or 17, and she's 21 and the...
Em Schulz: Oh, well I'm sure that fucking looked great for him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. I know. So the detective asked, is she a white girl? And Ryan said, yes, but the answer was no. So like he just is just saying things in response. It's like muscle memory. He's just responding for the sake of responding. When asked what happened to his face, he said, "I don't know, Heather must have hit me." Like he just literally at this point doesn't even remember.
Em Schulz: I can't believe these were used as...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And then these are used as fucking sources.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Wow, wow.
Christine Schiefer: He says, "It was an accident. I don't remember why." His answers obviously made no sense. And he seemed barely awake, but the detective kept pressing him. And between questions, he just kept telling the detective he wanted to go home and go to bed. And it was during this interview that some misinformation began to spread. So Detective Walker suggested that Richie was Ryan's former roommate. And Ryan said yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because he has a bullet in his fucking head. And he's confused.
Em Schulz: He also said... He also said, I don't know my girlfriend. And also she's 16.
Christine Schiefer: Yes precisely. Like, this is the information that's being used and publicly shared. So the detective also said he had heard that Ryan had guns in the house and Ryan was like, "Yes." And again...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: He had the one gifted from his grandfather that he had never used. And it wasn't even stolen.
Em Schulz: I looked him up, by the way. And that eye is incredible.
Christine Schiefer: It's terrifying.
Em Schulz: That's... I don't mean to keep interrupting you, but like I'm... I'm off...
Christine Schiefer: No, you're not.
Em Schulz: I'm officially on the angry train with you 'cause it's just so sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's upsetting. It's like deeply upsetting. So the entire interrogation was barely coherent. When Detective Walker asked Ryan what the highest grade he completed in school was, he said B, like the grade B.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He's just responding. Like, instead of saying like...
Em Schulz: How did... How did nobody hear this and think like, this guy's not in his right mind.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: He sounds like he's at least concussed.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Great question. So it was hours and hours of questioning. And finally Ryan started to put some memories together. He told the officer that Richie and Larry Carver had tried to break in and that they had hit him. At one point he said they were armed with bows and arrows, but then he corrected himself to tell detectives they were revolvers, not bows and arrows.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The detective said, "So they had revolvers and then what happened?" And sounding exasperated Ryan said, "Then they shot us both." Which is literally what happened.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So at least he got one thing right eventually. And I wonder...
Christine Schiefer: He's like telling them.
Em Schulz: If they even used it.
Christine Schiefer: Like he... They opened the door and he said, "I've been shot." And they're like, "Get in the fucking police car." And remember he sat in that police car for four hours before they even interrogated him.
Em Schulz: I even wonder what would've happened if he died in that car, if the cops would've even gotten in trouble.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, probably not, but.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: We'll get to it. So the detective said, "If you were shot in the eye with a revolver, you wouldn't be here right now. You'd most likely be dead."
Em Schulz: Most likely.
Christine Schiefer: But... Most likely, great point. And...
Em Schulz: Most likely, there's a chance you could be here.
Christine Schiefer: Didn't even think about that, great point.
Em Schulz: Good. Fucking stupid person to say anything like that.
Christine Schiefer: What a fucking dumb ass.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: But finally this detective started to realize, hey, something seems off.
Em Schulz: Thanks MacGyver. You really nailed it, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I know. What a fucking Shake... I almost said Shakespeare. What I meant to say was Sherlock Holmes. But you know, both apply. So he left the room for a moment and interestingly enough, when he comes back, he has a friendly, very gentle tone. And he says, "Oh, I'm gonna uncuff you, the Fire Department is on their way to take a look at you and your injuries." Because clearly somebody said, Hey idiot, if you keep going down this path...
Em Schulz: He's gonna die in your care.
Christine Schiefer: And we're gonna be fucked or he noticed something was wrong and was like, Oh shit, I have to backtrack. Either way...
Em Schulz: He didn't notice something was wrong, I promise.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He either did and ignored it, or someone else noticed and said, "You gotta do something about this." So he comes back. He's a totally different person. He's very calm, caring. He says, "The Fire Department is on their way." Ryan says, "I don't wanna go to the hospital, I just wanna go to bed." And the officer says, "That's a problem. If you have some kind of head injury, you shouldn't be sleeping." so Ryan is transported to the hospital where it was discovered that an infection had begun in his head as a result of two bullet wounds.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, yep.
Christine Schiefer: He had been shot in the nose and the bullet entered on the right and exited on the left and then entered his left eye.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The first shot left the exit wound visible in the interrogation tapes.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So the second shot entered behind his eyes and injured his skull, and this infection had to be treated, before Ryan could undergo surgery, so the surgery itself didn't happen until the 28th. This is like days later.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Ultimately, his orbital socket was completely destroyed, there were several pieces of bone in his brain. He had to have both eyes and part of his brain removed during surgery...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Both of his eyes?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh this poor guy. My God.
Christine Schiefer: I know he also had a broken jaw, which was not caused by the bullets. Guess what...
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Guess who caused it.
Em Schulz: I don't even wanna fucking say it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I already know.
Christine Schiefer: According to Ryan's dad, when police arrived and initially told Ryan to get on the ground, Ryan was confused and didn't comply, 'cause he had been shot in the head twice and watched his girlfriend get killed. In the police report, they said they led Ryan to the ground and then used a quote, "pressure point in Ryan's jaw to force him to comply."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And they broke his fucking jaw.
Em Schulz: I really hope whoever this cop was is just fucking rotting in jail.
Christine Schiefer: He's not.
Em Schulz: Well, that's how the world... That's how the world spins apparently. Doesn't even surprise me.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, plot twist, but it's like the least plot twist of all plot twist.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So Don...
Em Schulz: Normal sentence.
Christine Schiefer: Normal sentence.
Em Schulz: He... Normal sentence, he's fucking living his life right now.
Christine Schiefer: Normal segue into the rest of the story. So Don, Ryan's dad believes that police used excessive force and injured Ryan further. Ultimately, Ryan spent 35 days in the hospital. Police never visited or asked any questions about the shooting, Police never searched for Richie or Larry Carver, even though Ryan said, "Richie and Larry were the ones who broke into our house and shot us." That... That... That part just gets me. When Ryan got home from the hospital, police interviewed him and finally arrested Richie, and a few days later, Larry's wife turned Larry into police after he confessed the crime to her. So it was June 2008 when Richie Carver was convicted of felony murder, burglary, aggravated assault and misconduct involving weapons, and he was sentenced to life in prison. Just before Larry, the dad's trial, his wife recanted her statements and refused to testify against her husband in court citing marital privilege.
Em Schulz: Wow. Are you telling me the one who's married to someone that's known for domestic violence is all of a sudden being silenced into saying anything?
Christine Schiefer: Ding dong ding ding ding ding ding. You just nailed it. So without her testimony of Larry's confession to her, prosecutors had to drop the case against Larry. But Heather's family obviously did not accept that outcome, and her parents, her brother, her aunts, her uncle, her cousins, they rallied on her behalf and the appeal that they created eventually developed something called Heather's Law, which compels a defendant's spouse to testify if the spouse has voluntarily disclosed information to police about a serious crime. So basically if somebody comes to police and says, "I have information, my husband did it," they can't then backtrack and use marital privilege...
Em Schulz: Hmm, okay.
Christine Schiefer: As an excuse... As a... As a way out of testifying. Basically, Heather's Law says, if a defendant's spouse tells police they have information and discloses that information...
Em Schulz: They've opened the door.
Christine Schiefer: They've opened the door and they can't close it. Exactly. So the state fought a pretty intense legal battle to try and apply Heather's Law retroactively to Heather's own case, and ultimately Larry Carver was re-indicted and he was convicted of first degree murder.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: So at least there was that success, you know, in this whole thing. He was convicted of first degree murder, attempted first degree murder, burglary and aggravated assault, this was in 2011. He was also sentenced like his son to life in prison. But of course, the story was not over because we still have the story of Ryan. Ryan Waller spent the rest of his life disabled due to his severe, severe injuries, he suffered from seizures, and he eventually succumbed to one of his seizures in 2016.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So after all this...
Em Schulz: Still died?
Christine Schiefer: He passed. Yeah, his family filed a lawsuit against the city of Phoenix and its Police Department, things got of course, very messy. First of all, investigators now claim that Ryan and Heather were attacked on December 23rd, which would mean that Ryan was alone and injured for two full days...
Em Schulz: Oh fuck off.
Christine Schiefer: Before help arrived, which is basically saying any complications resulting from delayed treatment, wouldn't be the police's fault.
Em Schulz: Shut the fuck up.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up! Even if that is the case, you fucked up so hard, so big...
Em Schulz: It's just so gross and like...
Christine Schiefer: Like who are we kidding?
Em Schulz: And you know the cop responsible for all that, doesn't fucking lose a wink of sleep. Not a wink.
Christine Schiefer: They just are like, we did the right thing and we... Fuck it. But of course, there is a problem in this quote unquote fact that police have stated, which is that Ryan's family insists that Ryan and Heather were attacked on December 25th on Christmas day, because Ryan had been at his parents' house on December 23rd for like the whole day.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but whatever. But fucking whatever, right?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That doesn't count. And then...
Em Schulz: You could... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That night, December 23rd, a pizza delivery driver handed a pizza, a pizza to Ryan and Heather, that evening December 23rd.
Em Schulz: And he... And he doesn't remember two bullets in someone's face.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: That's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: He saw...
Em Schulz: That's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Both of them alive. This delivery driver.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but you know what that cop can say, he also didn't see a two bullets in that guy's head at any time. So like, I guess it could have been there. And the pizza delivery guy just missed it too.
Christine Schiefer: Precisely. It's too bad the pol... Pizza delivery driver doesn't have paramedics on hand who could do a quick check on him, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Heather's initial official autopsy stated that she died bet... Sometime between 5:00 PM and 8:00 PM on December 25th, Christmas day. In fact, Heather's date of death on her gravestone is the 25th as well.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: In the interrogation, which took place around 1:00 AM on December 26th. So only hours later, Detective Walker asks Ryan, "What happened last night?" Why would they come on Christmas day? So he's even acknowledging that these guys showed up on the 25th, like the detective who's interrogating him, is like, wait, but this happened last night. Why would they come on Christmas Day?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And by the way, I'll fucking tell you Detective Waller, because it's an apartment and people are probably at their family's houses, so places are fucking empty. And that's why I think nobody heard the bullets, because it's an apartment complex for young people who are probably on Christmas Day going to visit their families.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They're not at home.
Em Schulz: Yep. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Of course, that's why they broke in that day.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And if that is the case, then Ryan's care obviously was critically delayed by police in the time it took for them to respond to the wellness check, file a warrant, call a locksmith, leave him in the police car for four hours, and then interrogate him for three more hours. And this was a deeply precious time that could have been crucial to his recovery and treatment. But Detective Walker and the police department who has rallied behind him now insist that Ryan and Heather were attacked on the 23rd, and that their delay in treatment by the police made no difference.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: He would've died either way. So Ryan's dad claims that the date was even changed on Heather's autopsy report, that the police went back...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: And adjusted the date just to like back up their own story.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Detective Walker also insisted under oath in a deposition that he did not realize the severity of Ryan's injuries or that he needed medical attention. However, on the interrogation tapes, when Ryan asks once again to go home and sleep, guess what Detective Walker says? He says...
Em Schulz: It's Christmas or something. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He says, "You should go to the doctor, is where you should go."
Em Schulz: Oh, Well.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: Didn't get to.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: Not right away.
Christine Schiefer: And you know what Ryan said?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Me, why? This?" And then points to his eye and says, "Is it bad?" Like he is so disoriented. And Detective Walker responds saying, "I'd say that's really bad. If you have a concussion, you don't need to sleep." So he at least knows this man has a head injury.
Em Schulz: He knows... And yet didn't stop interrogating him.
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: Like someone who's not making sense and you're like, I'll ask another official question.
Christine Schiefer: And... And also had no plans to get him checked out medically.
Em Schulz: Not until he was done answering things wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, precisely. So Detective Walker was clearly aware during this interrogation that Ryan was badly injured and whether he believed he was shot is just semantics at this point, right? Like, it's like it doesn't matter if the bullet fucking went... If he saw this guy and was like, he has a head injury. It doesn't matter that you don't know he was shot twice. Like what matters is, you know, he's ill and injured.
Em Schulz: He's not right. He's not right.
Christine Schiefer: He's not right. Like what matters is it doesn't matter who shot him, whatever, you need to get him medical attention. So it pisses me off to be like off... That he's like, "Oh, I didn't know he was shot." It's like, well, you knew he was brain damaged, so isn't that enough?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh! So it was obviously technically protocol to have Ryan evaluated by medical professionals. Obviously that did not happen. In the end, the lawsuit against the Phoenix police was dismissed. Why?
Em Schulz: I'm... I'm unsurprised sadly.
Christine Schiefer: Not sure, but also unsurprised. Uh, that was only weeks before it went to trial. So on a YouTube video about their son, the Waller family commented the following, and this was just over a year ago. "For all of you that have asked if we filed a lawsuit against the Phoenix police, we did. We had a $15 million lawsuit against the City of Phoenix. The lawsuit went on for nearly three and a half years, and just three weeks before the trial was set to start, the city filed a motion for dismissal with the court because they stated they had found a brain expert that said the six hour delay in Ryan's treatment probably didn't make a difference in his outcome, and he would've had the same damage had he received treatment right away or six hours later."
Em Schulz: Shut up.
Christine Schiefer: "I paid an expert witness brain surgeon, a $10,000 retainer, and he would've testified something a whole lot different."
Christine Schiefer: "He would've testified that when a brain is bleeding, it is swelling. And when it is swelling, catastrophic damage is being done. So every minute was critical."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "This motion went before Judge Robert Budoff and he dismissed our case. There is no doubt in my heart or mind that he was paid off. There is no way that this should have ever been dismissed. There were many other issues besides the six hour delay. What about pain and suffering? What about... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Extremely irresponsible negligence? The City of Phoenix attorneys, police officers, and detectives involved in this case were collectively corrupt in getting this case dismissed and swept under the rug. We were three weeks from getting our day in court when magically they got this case dismissed because they knew if this had gone to a jury, there is no way they would've had a chance. But rather than take responsibility for their horrible mistakes, they showed they are not much better than the two men that shot Heather and Ryan."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: When another commenter asked what the public can do to help the Waller family replied, "I'm just hoping that maybe with enough pressure from the public that there will be an investigation as to how the City of Phoenix was so easily able to get our case dismissed just three weeks before we were going to finally get our day in court." The Waller family is still waiting for justice and have had fucking zero, the end.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'm... I'm pretty unsurprised, and it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's fucking horrible.
Em Schulz: I can see why you hate this story so much especially because I mean I already hate break-in robbery stories...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To begin with so that al... That alone is scary.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because it could happen to anyone. But you know what else could happen anyone? You're doing fucking nothing wrong and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Next thing you know you are in desperate need of medical care and nobody's gonna help you.
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point.
Em Schulz: Even if you're screaming it in their face.
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point. It's like... It's like the worst fear. Like you are going to the one person who has the power to fix what's happening.
Em Schulz: And not only that, not only are they denying you something you desperately need or you could die, but they're blaming you for it.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And saying you're being dramatic. It's the most gaslighting thing I could ever imagine.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible.
Em Schulz: It's just the most help helpless feeling. And the fact that it could happen to any of us in a second from right now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and what... What upsets me too, like seriously upsets me is just the fact that like his family was like, "We want to bring this to court." And you know obviously for the justice of their son but also to say, this can't happen again, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like that's what these cases are for to like set things right and make sure this doesn't happen again to another family, to another person, and then a judge is like, "Oh sorry actually we don't need to take this to trial, we're just dismissing it."
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And I wish I... I... Like you know the the commenter said," What can we do?" And they said,"We just really want enough pressure from the public." And I'm like you know we have a platform and I'm like how do we do that? I don't know I... I wish I had a better understanding of like how to...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: How to do this like, like do I... Like do we do a petition like I... I don't know I don't know. So you know I'd love to... I mean you know, I'd love to hear from people who have you know an understanding of this world and what will actually make a difference because sometimes I feel like I sign a million petitions and I'm like, "Is it doing anything maybe, maybe not."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but if anybody knows like what we can really do, umm, besides just talk about it and bring it more awareness, I would love to know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm 'cause you know this and so many of our stories like I would just love to be able to...
Em Schulz: Be helpful.
Christine Schiefer: Be helpful, right? It's like we're talking about it and then we hang up, like I'd love to at least make some sort of difference you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: I, uh... Man, just nothing more infuriating and off-putting and it's just a very large reminder that you can't even trust the authorities that are supposed to be set in place to help you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, not necessarily anyway, it's, uh...
Em Schulz: You should... You should be able to.
Christine Schiefer: You should be able to. Yeah, and, you know, that's the kind of shit we're, we're hoping will be the future but, umm, it's a really long road I think.
Em Schulz: What a good story, Christine, what a great fun happy story.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Wow, it's like I cursed you.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: What happened there?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: We're good, for a second we weren't, are you good?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Yeah, my mic screwed up and now it's...
Em Schulz: No it's talking into the mic now.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what happened but all of a sudden my whole computer started flashing all these things and it said... It said a lot of things, I'm so sorry.
Em Schulz: It said, time to go.
Christine Schiefer: It said you're done.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but what what did you say last I didn't hear it.
Em Schulz: Oh, I said, what a fun good story and then I think you...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My computer was like, No!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like it's told me to shut up, but it accidentally made you shut up, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man, okay.
Em Schulz: Well I guess we'll we'll take that cue and, uh, we'll bounce. Good... Good luck on your show... On your live show tomorrow, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, Arizona, love you, don't love your police force, gonna see you in a few short hours, can't wait. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
