[intro music]
Em Schulz: Welcome to the Sick Show, where...
Christine Schiefer: Bunch of sickos.
Em Schulz: Christine's sick and I'm sick. And, oh, Christine, it's about to be our birthdays very soon. I know when people hear this, it'll already be our birthdays and fingers crossed, we are healed people, but we are going into our next birth years rough. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, it sucks 'cause also I have a wedding this weekend, so I've been like obsessively testing for COVID and it's been negative every time. I just have like this horrible sinus infection and...
Em Schulz: What's the vibe at a wedding for you? Are you gonna mask it up and stay like in the back away from everyone or are you like in the party?
Christine Schiefer: So, oh, I'm not in the party, thankfully.
Em Schulz: Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and I'm only a couple days away, so I'm hoping... Like I just keep this... I mean, it's been going on for like two frickin' weeks. I'm like, at a certain point, it has to stop, right? Right, Em?
Em Schulz: One would think. [chuckle] So far, no, but maybe.
Christine Schiefer: So I have like three days to really, uh, you know, wait... So what are you doing for... Let's, let's be happy for a minute. Let's try.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, uh, hang on. Here's my, here's my smile.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, okay.
Em Schulz: See, like that?
Christine Schiefer: You must be sad. That didn't make me feel good. Um, do you...
Em Schulz: What... Why am I happy?
Christine Schiefer: What are you doing for your B-day? And I know your mom is coming to town. What are you drinking right now? What's happening?
Em Schulz: Right now I'm drinking any and all fluids that I can find and um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Look what I'm drinking.
Em Schulz: What is that?
Christine Schiefer: Look what I'm drinking. It's an Almdudler.
Em Schulz: That was not gonna be my first guess, Christine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm drinking an Almdudler.
Em Schulz: Is it apple juice? What is it?
Christine Schiefer: It is. It's apple juice with sparkling. Sparkling apple juice. It's an Austrian classic.
Em Schulz: I... That sounds like something I could get behind.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's really good. And I, um, I used to hate anything sparkling when I was little 'cause it hurt my mouth, but now I love it. And uh, it's a... They sell it at Jungle Jim's in the Germany aisle, so...
Em Schulz: There's no sparkling that I really, truly, fully enjoy. Um, like I... Yeah, I'll drink LaCroix, but half of...
Christine Schiefer: What about like, a Dr. Pepper or something?
Em Schulz: Oh, that's a... To me, soda and sparkling are different things.
Christine Schiefer: Right, but this is like sweet 'cause it's like apple juice, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh, that's true.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like you'd like it 'cause it's like apple juice with a little bit of uh, bubblies in it.
Em Schulz: I do... I've realized I do love a blood orange San Pellegrino, which is like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, Em! We found it. We found our one crossover beverage. That to me is the ideal. That's the ideal.
Em Schulz: That's my like... That's my fancy bitch drink where I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: They sold it at Costco the other day and I was like, "I'm getting a 16-pack of these things," and they're like $50. I didn't buy it, but I was like, I love that shit. That... Oh my God, blood orange. Wait, that was in my wedding cocktail.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It was blood orange cock... Uh, it was a gin and uh, Gio and tonic and it was blood orange, uh, gin and tonic. Oh my God. So good.
Em Schulz: Um, I'm a real sloot for the blood orange. I love it.
Christine Schiefer: Me too, Em. I think we found our weakness, our combined weakness.
Em Schulz: Um, to answer your question...
Christine Schiefer: Tell us you hate, tell us you hate blood orange so we can all finally... Em and I can have something you can't have. Is that... That would be great.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Uh, to answer your question, for my birthday, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm really hoping that I'll feel better. I think I'll be fine. I, I'm coming down from it, well, so far at least.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I feel like, too.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Do you feel like your mom's planning stuff, or are you the one who has to plan it?
Em Schulz: Honestly, it's...
Christine Schiefer: Also, why is she staying with you? I thought she's... She's not getting a hotel? Sorry, I'm asking so many questions and they're... I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Well, I like to talk about myself, so this works really good for me. [chuckle] Um, why is she staying with us? Um, honestly, she's listening to this now too, so it's gonna be embarrassing anyway, but...
Christine Schiefer: No, I know...
Em Schulz: My mom has told me enough times that I should have retained the information and I don't know, and I'm afraid to ask at this point, so I'm just kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Coasting and when she... So... But...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just wondering. I mean, I don't... 'Cause she hasn't in the past, right?
Em Schulz: No, but also I didn't have a guest room in the past 'cause RJ lives here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fair point. Okay, that... No, that... Well, that explains it. Yep.
Em Schulz: Um, but she does... She's not someone who's trying to like pinch a penny. So I don't know why she's staying with us.
Christine Schiefer: No, that's... I guess that's my other question is like, usually I, I picture her being like, "Enjoy your little apartment, I'm going to the Ritz or something." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, right. I usually feel like that's her vibe, so I don't know why she's staying with us, but...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe 'cause it's your birthday. She wants to like... I don't know.
Em Schulz: Never leave me? Great. Um... And I don't know what we're doing for my birthday. I, I don't... I think it's supposed to be vague, and I think I'm supposed to not know what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But also maybe I'm just like hoping that's... Maybe I'm like holding out that like I'm doing the right thing by being confused. Uh, but I think Allison has something planned that my mom has agreed to, and I will just kind of get chauffeured around.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So I don't know what I'm doing for my birthday, um, but I know my mom will be next to me during it, which is what we both wanted last year um and it just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Couldn't happen for my big 30th. So this is the reprise.
Christine Schiefer: I like... You know, I was telling somebody recently that sometimes it's the off... I was telling my brother 'cause, um, this year I'm going to a wedding on your birthday and I'm going to a wedding on my brother's birthday, but my brother's also going to the wedding on his birthday.
Em Schulz: Oh, poor guy.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and it's his 30th, I realized this week.
Em Schulz: Oh, poor guy.
Christine Schiefer: I had no idea. But also what I was kind of telling him was, you know, as people who've now celebrated our 30th in less than ideal circumstances, I was, uh, I think pregnant and it was COVID. Um, you know, like things like that. I, I was like, you know what, these big milestone numbers have so much pressure on them that I almost feel like the year after, like the kind of off years, like 31 or, you know, 32, those are the more enjoyable like... There's less pressure to make it like a huge spectacle. Do you know what I mean? And then the disappointment's not there. So I told him like, we're definitely gonna do something fun for his birthday, it'll be great, but like, you know, "Just 'cause it's your 30th doesn't mean like you're never gonna have a fun birthday again. Like, we'll... Next year for 31, we can go all out, you know."
Em Schulz: I see what you were trying to do there and it is lovely, but I'm such a diva that loves a spectacle that I still demand it.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: But I know, I know what you're saying.
Christine Schiefer: But you can do a spectacle any year. You know what I mean? You can be like 31...
Em Schulz: Yeah, you can make 31...
Christine Schiefer: Just because 30 passed doesn't mean like, I don't get to do another big spectacle birthday for 10 years. Like you can just say, "You know what, fuck it. I skipped my birthday this year, or it was a flop or whatever."
Em Schulz: I do like the idea of the theme being, um, last year's spectacle plus more.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Plus, plus one. That's exactly what I'm saying, like you can use that to your advantage and be like, "Next year we're going all-out, you know."
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I, I think, um...
Christine Schiefer: It just takes a little bit of the pressure off, I think.
Em Schulz: Allison would be right on board with you because last year, since it was my 30th and I had such a goddamn crisis about it, which I'm not ashamed of, by the way, uh, but I am aware that I was a menace to everybody. And, uh, but I did tell Allison even before my birthday last year. I was like, "I really want 30 to like be big because I have fantasized about this and like let me have it." But next year, I swear to God you're off the hook, Allison. You will not have to worry again for a very long time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: So I... She really tried last year because I made that promise to her. Also 'cause she...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: You know, she loves me and she's wonderful.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But she... But I, I know she like did not forget that I said, "This is the last time you'll really have to like put a weird amount of effort into it and next year, like we're just coasting, baby." And this year, I think, she, she still put something together and I'm sure it's great, but I haven't heard her say anything about being as stressed. So I'm glad we're all kind of chill and vibe and, you know...
Christine Schiefer: I almost feel like sometimes those birthdays end up being more fun 'cause you're not like forcing it. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I... And I'm...
Christine Schiefer: It took me 30 years to learn that 'cause I was very disappointed that my 30th was like during COVID. And I know a lot of our friends, a lot of our listeners, same thing. Um, but then when I hit 31 and I had like the best birthday party ever and it was like super chill, I finally got to see everyone like after COVID, it was so great that I was like, "You know what, like it can be, it can be fun to just, um, put it off a year, you know, do the big thing the next year."
Em Schulz: Are you hoping for anything for your birthday?
Christine Schiefer: So I actually have planned a birthday party, um, at a barcade downtown. Uh...
Em Schulz: Fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm really excited because we're going to a wedding on Saturday, which is your birthday...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then my birthday's the next day. But the, the reason it worked out so well is that so many people coming to the wedding that we're going to are like friends from out of town. So everyone will still be in town.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So we can do like a big...
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I booked out like this barcade and it has unlimited bowling and all these like pinball and arcade games and, um, a big bar. And I just booked out like a section of that and, um, um, just kind of a bunch of random people, whoever wants to stop by, uh, come in. It's gonna be fun, I think. Um, Blaise has already... He said, "We need to clear out the fridge," and I was like, "For what?" And he's like, "Your birthday cake." And I was like, "Okay."
Em Schulz: Now, that's a husband. He's like...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I was like...
Em Schulz: "I got you a cake the size of a football field." [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "I'm not clearing out the fridge," and he's like, "It's for your birthday cake." I was like, "Okay, I'm clearing out the fridge." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm such an asshole. I'd be like, "Interesting, Allison. I thought it was my birthday, so... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know, right?
Em Schulz: "You can clean out the fridge."
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "Not yet. Give it another couple days." Um, anyway.
Em Schulz: The only thing I'm, the only thing I'm hoping for which I actually think I might not be getting now, which I...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: I know I mentioned it last time was, um, the cupcakes that Allison's made that are like the neon tie dye.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I've been thinking about those non-stop.
Em Schulz: Me, too. [laughter] I, uh, I'm hoping Allison hears this in advance and then like panic makes them in case...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think that's possible, 'cause I think this comes out in like fucking July or something.
Em Schulz: But I, I... We mentioned it in a previous episode, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, right, true.
Em Schulz: Um, I should also just maybe hint it later today that I missed those yummy cupcakes. Um...
Christine Schiefer: It's not a bad idea, not a bad idea.
Em Schulz: But my mom, my mom has not spoiled the plans, which I'm sure was very hard for her. So good job to mom. But, um, Allison, I've already told you she's an itinerary girly, and so she has written out quite a schedule. And my mom has told me that, uh, we... From like, pretty much, uh, from like sunrise to sunset, we will be out. And so I don't think...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's fun.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But I think that means we won't be home to eat cupcakes. So I'm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: Wondering what the situation is.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm, intriguing.
Em Schulz: But I'll find out along the way. So...
Christine Schiefer: Well, she has a whole weekend, you know.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: If they're not there on your birthday, you can be like, "Oh, so tomorrow the cupcakes are coming out?" and then she can be like, "Postmates, crap, I need flour,"...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know? It'll be good.
Em Schulz: Um, I have a reason why I drink...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's not...
Em Schulz: Besides being sick.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. And it's not your birthday and it's not any of the above, a new reason?
Em Schulz: Yes. Well, so when this comes out, everyone pretend that you are, um... Just time travel back to when Christine and I were recording this, which is June 1st. Everyone...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Time travel back. You know it well. You've been there, we haven't. Um, so June, June 1st, okay. Uh, last...
Christine Schiefer: Happy Pride.
Em Schulz: Happy Pride, everybody.
Christine Schiefer: Happy birthday, Alyssa, one of my queer friends who is also born in June. I just... I love my little like queer June tribe. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: There's nothing I love more than the fact that Gemini season and Pride season happen at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's like...
Em Schulz: It's delicious.
Christine Schiefer: It couldn't be more perfect.
Em Schulz: It's delicious. Um, uh, oh, I was gonna say last week, we discussed the Duggars, yes?
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Do you realize... I never even mentioned this because I really went into a tirade of, on the, you know... We really talked, talked it up.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Um, did you know how topical that was?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Because do you know the most recent update at all about the Duggars?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Okay. So...
Christine Schiefer: It's like I went in, and then I immediately locked it up and launched it into outer space and never looked back.
Em Schulz: That's fair. That's fair. Nobody really needs more of that.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I feel like you'll tell me as you are right now. So...
Em Schulz: Well, I, I feel so silly that I should have said it then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But now it's like delayed and this is old news to everybody else. But to you and me, remember we're all in... We're all here on June 1st right now, so yay.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: What happened?
Em Schulz: At midnight, the Duggar tell-all documentary comes out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, tonight?
Em Schulz: Tonight, which is our...
Christine Schiefer: Happy fucking birthday, Em.
Em Schulz: Birthday weekend. And for my birthday gift, you told me about the Duggars. They were just so perfectly lined up and I totally forgot to tell you about it. So, uh, tonight because, um, I'm obviously going to watch it and I have to make it a spectacle, as we've said,...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Um, as you know, because we've discussed this enough privately, is that the Duggars are obsessed with this meal called Tater Tot casserole. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I love that we discuss it privately, like [laughter] because this is such a personal discussion.
Em Schulz: Not only that, but Christine has, uh, custom cricket made me my own Tater Tot Casserole pan.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you've thrown it out or forgotten about it by now.
Em Schulz: Do you know how many times I've made Tater Tot Casserole in that thing?
Christine Schiefer: Wait, you have actually used it?
Em Schulz: Yes, only for Tater Tot Casserole. So, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm gonna cry. I made that with my cricket machine and some glass engraving tools.
Em Schulz: Well, tonight I will be using it again.
Christine Schiefer: Like a psycho. Yay!
Em Schulz: They're, they're also obsessed with, um, pickles. That was like... That's like Michelle Duggar's...
Christine Schiefer: So are you.
Em Schulz: Pregnant food. I love a gherkin. And so, uh, I'm gonna have some... [chuckle] Why are you making that face? It's legit. So I'm going to, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes I think we don't have enough like one-liners on this show, and then you say things like, "I love a gherkin," and I'm like, "Fucking put it on a shirt, baby. Let's go."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, now that's a Vlassic! So I... And...
Christine Schiefer: We can't take that one, guys. That is...
Em Schulz: That one's not mine.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: Um, anyway, tonight I'm having my own little watch party even though I'm sick. I have nothing to do tonight, and so I'm just going to sit there and...
Christine Schiefer: Fucking yes.
Em Schulz: And it comes out at midnight. I'm gonna have my, my TTC and I'm gonna have my gherkins and we're gonna have a little party.
Christine Schiefer: What does the, um, casserole dish say? I was afraid to ask if you still had it, 'cause I didn't want you to feel like, "Oh no, I threw it away."
Em Schulz: I think it just says Em's Tater Tot Casserole dish or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think that's right. I forgot the name of TTC, Tater Tot Casserole. And it has like little swirlies on it. Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's very, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm so excited, Em.
Em Schulz: Southern Belle dish. Anyway, that's... I... This is... I am aware this news is delayed, but in this present moment, it like... What's so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what do you think is gonna happen?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I feel like, I think I'm gonna get like two really good pieces of intel and other... I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: And what's that?
Em Schulz: I don't... So Jill and Derek are in this and they're gonna talk about their experience. And they're pissed. I'm pretty sure they are like fully removed from Jim, Bob and some of the siblings. So like, I think they at this point have...
Christine Schiefer: Distanced themselves.
Em Schulz: Only the truth to discuss and they have a, and they have a memoir coming out, um, next year.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So I think...
Christine Schiefer: Are you gonna... Real talk, are you gonna read the memoir? Are you gonna do an Audible? Are you just not gonna read it? Maybe just TikTok clip it?
Em Schulz: Uh, usually I, I, I TikTok clip it, or like I'll wait for Reddit to post it in clips because I really don't wanna like give them my money.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, if for some reason I can't, I, I might wait around and see if something leaks, and then if it doesn't, I, I might give in. But I'm gonna try my best to not give them my money.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Um, so... 'Cause one of the things I really liked about Reddit with, uh, Ginger's book is that someone was just like copy and pasting like the pages into the Reddit, like...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Which like is so fucked up, but also like none of us wanted to like give her our money. So like, it was useful. I'm not saying it was right, but it was useful. Uh, but so, uh...
Christine Schiefer: It's unethical, but it's...
Em Schulz: You have to like balance...
Christine Schiefer: I get it, I get it.
Em Schulz: You have to balance the morals. It's like, which one of, which one do I hate more or less?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, exactly.
Em Schulz: Um, so, but I'm excited about... I will, I will figure out the information in the memoir. I don't know how I'm gonna get the information, but I'll figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: You'll get it. I don't doubt that at all. No, I don't. I don't doubt that.
Em Schulz: And the documentary today, I... Or that comes out later today. I don't know. There's some like really big players that are like in the documentary, which is cool. So like, I feel like there's gonna be some good information, but I also don't know... I don't, I don't know. I'm, we'll see. But I'm expecting...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: To be disappointed not in like a negative Nancy way, but in a like, let's keep my... Let's keep it restrained and like not...
Christine Schiefer: Let's keep our, um, our expectations in check.
Em Schulz: Yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, got you.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm very excited for my, uh, party of one Duggar watch party tonight with like...
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait. I'm so happy for you. You know what, I might watch TV tonight, too.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Ah! That'd be fun. You should make TTC.
Christine Schiefer: I should. Can you send me the recipe for real? I don't have it.
Em Schulz: It's um... It sounds disgusting. It actually tastes kind of good and like, I'm, I'm so ashamed of saying that, but it's good.
Christine Schiefer: You know me. Like, I like everything. Um, I eat everything.
Em Schulz: It fills the old tummy up real right. So, um, it's a good time.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I will send you the recipe. It's very simple. It's like four ingredients and you just shove them together.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck yes.
Em Schulz: Um, okay. Wow. I feel like I sold the show there.
Christine Schiefer: Let's party.
Em Schulz: Is there anything you would like to say? Um...
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just like on that DayQuil grind, I'm just like loving life, drinking my sparkling apple juice, going back to childhood mentally. Um, you know, just...
Em Schulz: Are you, um... Before we get into it, and it is Pride, I wanna say happy pride to you. Is this your first out Pride?
Christine Schiefer: I still don't feel like I'm technically out, but yeah. Yes.
Em Schulz: Well, you're only talking into a microphone for the masses.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, and I think that's why it doesn't feel real. Um, but yes, I do, I do identify as bisexual and I have a cute little sticker on my laptop to prove it, okay, everybody. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yay! Okay. I mean, that sounds pretty out to me.
Christine Schiefer: So happy Pride, Em. I'm... Thank you so much for acknowledging that. That makes me very happy.
Em Schulz: Well, I've had...
Christine Schiefer: And since I, since I like said that I... A couple of friends that I have are like, "Hey, did you know I'm bi, too?" and I'm like, "What? No!"
Em Schulz: You bi's, you're all sneaky.
Christine Schiefer: We're hiding.
Em Schulz: You little mysteries. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's why everyone hates us. They're like, "Eww, they're too sneaky. We can't trust them." And guess what? You can't.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Every time I turn a corner I'm like, "Is there another one over there?" Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I feel like I will turn the corner, everyone can take a look at me and know what the situation is. With you...
Christine Schiefer: We hear you coming a mile away. You know what I mean? It's like, "Here comes Em."
Em Schulz: Here comes Em screaming, "I love women."
Christine Schiefer: With her bullshit.
Em Schulz: "I'm very queer." Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "I love women, but also Tater Tot Casserole and the Duggars." Just figure it out, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Whatever the... Who... Whatever my identity is, I'm going to hell, so whatever. Um, if you talk...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Me, too.
Em Schulz: If you talk to the Duggars, that's what they'll tell you. Okay. So, uh, anyway, happy pride. I didn't wanna forget to say that to you.
Christine Schiefer: That's so kind of you. Thank you. You... Happy pride and to you and Eva and... And that's it. Nobody else.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just kidding. Everybody.
Em Schulz: Just us.
Christine Schiefer: Just us.
Em Schulz: This episode is, um, a shorty, so I encourage banter, but...
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: So it's gonna be four hours long. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, I shouldn't have done that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: It's okay. I'm ready.
Em Schulz: But I, I did... I was doing the notes and I was like, "Oh, they're a little shorter than my usual stuff, so I feel a little like nervous. But whatever.
Christine Schiefer: No, don't worry. It, it's, it always ends up being a good thing. It evens out.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, I personally love this story and I think you'll figure out the vibe very quickly.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, I think you'll know why this category of, uh, topic is my favorite. I'll just get into it. This is the story of Sergei Ponomarenko.
Christine Schiefer: Woah, you said that so smoothly.
Em Schulz: I practiced because I know I fuck up so much on the misspellings or the...
Christine Schiefer: Ponomarenko?
Em Schulz: On the mispronunciations. Ponomarenko.
Christine Schiefer: Ponomarenko. Who's that?
Em Schulz: I'll tell you. As I get into this, I would like to give shoutouts to the YouTube channels, Joe Scott and The Why Files, because 99% of my information came from their videos.
Christine Schiefer: Nice.
Em Schulz: Um, and I looked elsewhere, but really they were the most concise and well put together stories. So that was what I worked up with.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: And also, as I'm saying, I know I fuck up pronunciations. It's Kyiv, right? Or is it Kyiv in Ukraine?
Christine Schiefer: I think it's Kyiv or Kyiv.
Em Schulz: Kyiv?
Christine Schiefer: Kyiv. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I'm glad you don't know because I feel like less of a dick.
Christine Schiefer: Kyiv.
Em Schulz: But I...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I've always listened to the news clippings and gone, "Okay, that's how you say it," and then I fuck it up anyway.
Em Schulz: I watched like 10 YouTube channels and everyone said it differently and I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Kyiv.
Em Schulz: "Well, this does not fucking help me."
Christine Schiefer: I think it is Kyiv.
Em Schulz: Kyiv.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just saying that for no reason. What is wrong with me?
Em Schulz: Everyone leave me alone. We're pronouncing it Kyiv and know that I tried, and if I still fucked it up, what else is new? Okay? Uh, okay. So let's talk about Sergei Ponomarenko. That I can fucking say, everybody. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: How... Uh, how amazing, by the way. Congratulations.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Once in my life. Okay, so we... The date is April 23rd, 2006.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In Kyiv? Kyiv, Kyiv, Ukraine. Okay. April, 2006, people are walking around town, hanging out in Ukraine, and then they notice this man, and he seems very confused and he's looking up at this building.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. I know what's happening, I think.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Is it like a, like a time travel?
Em Schulz: He seems very confused. He's looking up at this building. He is in his early 20s and he is wearing clothes that are new and yet out-of-date.
Christine Schiefer: Yes! Oh, fuck yes, I love these kind of stories, Em.
Em Schulz: Uh, everyone thinks it's very odd how he's dressed because his clothes do look like he just bought them...
Christine Schiefer: That's freaky.
Em Schulz: But they are 50 years out of date. At the same time, something else he has that's very new on him is an antique camera.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] It like still has the price tag on it and stuff?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So weird.
Em Schulz: He approaches all these people 'cause he's confused. He's like asking people for directions. Nobody's able to help him because he's looking for the street that does not seem to exist.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Dun, dun dun.
Em Schulz: Uh, this catches the...
Christine Schiefer: You're pulling me.
Em Schulz: This catches the eye of two cops and they have...
Christine Schiefer: Of course it does.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anything suspicious or not suspicious...
Christine Schiefer: Those little eyes.
Em Schulz: They will be suspicious of. Yeah. Uh, this catches the eye of two cops, the eyes of two cops? Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. I think the eye in the, the phrase, the idiom, "catch the eye of someone or something".
Em Schulz: Well, two police officers show up. They see that he looks confused. He's looking around. They're like, "How can we help you?" This guy says, "I'm looking for this one street," and they've never heard of it. So they show him a map. They're like, "Where are you trying to get to?" He shows... He points to the map where the street should be and there's a landfill.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] [laughter] Oh, no. This poor guy of all things.
Em Schulz: And the cops are like, "Who are you? Can you, can you show us some ID?" Uh, and he says his name is Sergei Ponomarenko and he hands them his ID and the cops are very thrown off by his ID.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Because not only does the, ID say that he's from the Soviet Union, which is not a thing anymore, and it also says that he was born in 1932.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: And he looks 25 years old.
Christine Schiefer: Ah! He has like a really good Korean skin care regimen, or something time travel-y is afoot.
Em Schulz: Something silly is happening here. Uh, they're like, "How... It says you're born in 1932. What... What's the situation?" And somehow...
Christine Schiefer: "Explain yourself."
Em Schulz: And Sergei uh... I think they probably said something like, "How were you born in 1932 and you look like you're 25?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And through very quick conversation, Sergei says like, "Uh, the year is 1958."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. That's very far off, sir.
Em Schulz: It's like, hmm, you might not be onto something, um...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Unfortunately.
Christine Schiefer: You just are pretty far off.
Em Schulz: I wonder if he said that the year is 1958, or "Last I checked, it was 1958." 'Cause if you're... I feel like a cop in 2006 looks very different than the one in 1958.
Christine Schiefer: Great, great point.
Em Schulz: Like you're walking around, nobody looks like you. This like... Is it not clicking? Something's off?
Christine Schiefer: People are on the phone, like women are wearing pants. Like things are...
Em Schulz: Right, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Wrong everywhere.
Em Schulz: It's... Yeah, something's amiss.
Christine Schiefer: You've gotta immediately realize that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, so the cops hear him say it's 1958 and they go, "Okay, let's take you down the street to this psychiatric clinic."
Christine Schiefer: Ding-dong, we've got a visitor. Yep. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "And, uh, let's see how much help you might need." Um, so apparently at this visit, there was CCTV footage that shows Sergei looking very nervous and a nurse that was interviewed later ended up saying that he was acting very strange and agitated, would not give his belongings to her and kept staring at her phone, her mobile phone.
Christine Schiefer: A-ha! See?
Em Schulz: Which 2006, that was like the first year of the iPhone, too. He came...
Christine Schiefer: Imagine...
Em Schulz: He came at the right time.
Christine Schiefer: Right time. And also like the hot pink Razrs were still vibing. Blackberry... I mean, imagine learning to play Brick Breaker on an original Blackberry.
Em Schulz: Remember the Chocolate? And like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I remember the old Chocolate.
Em Schulz: It was the first phone that like did this, it like moved up.
Christine Schiefer: Did you... Yeah. Did you have the Lime green one?
Em Schulz: No, I was a, I was a Razr kid.
Christine Schiefer: Me, too.
Em Schulz: Uh, and I didn't have an iPhone until...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: We already... I know, I know we already knew this about each other. I know we've had this conversation. I just feel it in my bones but...
Em Schulz: We'll, we'll have to discuss our phones again 'cause I made a list of every phone I ever had because I...
Christine Schiefer: I think we did this...
Em Schulz: Apparently make lists.
Christine Schiefer: On the show. I think we did this in an after chat. Maybe we'll... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Did we?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe we'll do something similar. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Anyway, for, uh... Originally I was a Razr kid and I didn't get an iPhone or a smartphone at all until college.
Christine Schiefer: Me neither.
Em Schulz: No, from grad school. Until I met you in Boston.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. Neither did Blaise. He still had a flip phone. Um, it didn't even have internet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, me too.
Christine Schiefer: And I was like, "You are in graduate school. You need a phone."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: My mom, when I was moving out of the state, she was like, "I need to know where you are."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "Oh, okay. That's fair."
Christine Schiefer: I mean, if she's gonna pay for your phone, like why not, you know?
Em Schulz: It was a fair argument. So... Okay, so he's staring at the phone, undetermined if, uh, it was an iPhone or the Chocolate or the Razr.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or a Blackberry.
Em Schulz: Or a Blackberry. A lot of foods. Blackberry...
Christine Schiefer: What is that?
Em Schulz: Chocolate.
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of weird, huh?
Em Schulz: Hmm, hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Apple.
Em Schulz: Ah... Oh! What is happening here?
Christine Schiefer: Do you know why they named it Apple? Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Um, let me think. Something about fucking Eve. What?
Christine Schiefer: No. My brother just taught me this. Um, apparently, I think it was either Steve Jobs or Wozniak, but one of them... Wait, was Wozniak the other one? Anyway, one of them, um, when they were coming up... I think it was Steve Jobs was coming up with a name, he wanted to be like the first, um, in the Yellow Pages when you look up like a tech company, and so he did an A name and did Apple.
Em Schulz: Smart.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I feel like there's an Eve thing. I feel like some Christian probably wrote a story about it, like made...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Made it, put it part of the zeitgeist, you know.
Christine Schiefer: That's you right now, 'cause I think no one's ever said that except you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Let me see. I, I believe you fully, but I feel like there's gotta be...
Christine Schiefer: Was it the Duggars who said that? 'Cause it sounds like the Duggars would say some bullshit like that.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Apple logo, why.
Christine Schiefer: Apple logo, why. [laughter] Why?
Em Schulz: It represents knowledge as in the biblical story of Adam and Eve.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I feel like it was... Come on, I, I can't say it right, but you can say, say the, the double... Say it.
Christine Schiefer: Say what? Oh, double entendre.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think that's what it was. I think it's a little bit of everything.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, you're probably right. I don't know, maybe my brother's was um...
Em Schulz: No, that makes sense, too. Steve Jobs was...
Christine Schiefer: In reality, Steve Jobs named the company Apple because he liked the fruit. Steve Jobs followed a fruitarian diet. Okay. So maybe that's why.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So every answer imaginable is the right one.
Christine Schiefer: That's hilarious.
Em Schulz: I, I know he was like the king of like user design and like iOS. I totally believe the Apple thing in the front of a Yellow Page. That totally makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It makes sense, right?
Em Schulz: Uh...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Maybe my brother made that up. I have no idea.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I believe it. I am believing it. So whatever. [laughter] Um, okay. Anyway, he's still, he's staring at the phone, he's acting really weird on the CCTV footage. Um, and at this psychiatric appointment, this is where he meets a psychiatrist named Dr. Pablo Kutrokov.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And basically, Dr. Kutrokov says, "What is the last thing you remember? 'Cause... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Homie, a lot has happened since 1958."
Christine Schiefer: Fair question.
Em Schulz: And this is a quote from Sergei. He said, "It was daytime and I wanted to go for a walk in the city. I took my camera, but when I left my house, I saw a strange object that had a bell shape."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh.
Em Schulz: "It was very strange and it was flying in a strange way. It's difficult to explain what I was seeing. It might be better to look at the photos from my camera."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] This is the kind of eyewitness we need.
Em Schulz: So they take his camera...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yes.
Em Schulz: And they realize that it is a vintage camera, obviously, but it's also a rare camera, so they needed to call in a specific photographer...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Who would know how to develop the film the right way. The photographer, his name was, I think it's Vadim, uh, Vadim Posmer. Vadim Posmer. And he was a photographer who knew the camera well. He said the camera was a Yashima Flex.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And he also said, what was interesting about the film for this camera is that it was discontinued in the 1970s.
Christine Schiefer: Discontinued. Oh. And it's brand new-looking.
Em Schulz: It's in fact, in perfect condition.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my goodness.
Em Schulz: Even though it's almost 50 years old.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my goodness.
Em Schulz: So when he develops the film, he looks at the photos and the photos are from, uh, the same part of town, but everything looks like it's from the 1950s,...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: The cars, the people, buildings that are no longer there.
Christine Schiefer: And that's my dream is to be able to see like photos of exactly where I go day-to-day in the old times.
Em Schulz: Also, maybe I'm an idiot, um, when it comes to like vintage film, but to my knowledge, if that film wasn't developed, there's no way that that guy could have known what was on the roll of film beforehand when he's, when he handed over his camera and said, "Look at my camera." Like, unless he took the pictures, he wouldn't know what's on that roll of film because it hadn't been developed yet. Right?
Christine Schiefer: But he did take the pictures, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah, but I'm saying like, for the skeptics out there who'd be like, "Oh, well, he might have known what was on the camera," but it's like... But how... But unless he took the pictures himself and like... Like how would you know what's on the roll?
Christine Schiefer: Who else would've taken them?
Em Schulz: I'm, I'm saying like for skeptics who might think like he just like grabbed a random camera and like was putting on a bit.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, was, was grabbing... I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Yeah. So you're right. Yeah, you wouldn't know. There's no like playback feature that he can like go through and be like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Preview what's on there. I see what you're saying.
Em Schulz: Like he had to know what's on the roll of film...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: To be able to tell people...
Christine Schiefer: So either it was his camera and he had somehow elaborately done this or it was like really from that time.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Got it, got it.
Em Schulz: And so, um, so he said, "I was walking around and I saw this weird thing in the sky and I was taking pictures and looked through my camera and everything in there was 1950s Kyiv," including pictures of him in front of buildings that no longer exist in the same outfit he was wearing in that moment." So it was as if he...
Christine Schiefer: That's wild.
Em Schulz: It was as if those pictures were taken today. And uh...
Christine Schiefer: That's bananas, dude.
Em Schulz: And he... It wasn't just him in the pictures, but it was also of his girlfriend/fiancee. Different sources say different things. Her name is Valentina Karish.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And so there's pictures of the two of them just walking around the city, taking pictures together. And the last photo is of a bell-shaped UFO in the sky.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Shut up.
Em Schulz: Sergei says "At the same moment when I took the picture, I went down to look at the camera and somehow I showed up in this year."
Christine Schiefer: And then he looks back up and there's this fucking giant building.
Em Schulz: And that's why he looked confused.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Screenplay, screenplay.
Em Schulz: That night, I guess they like held him 'cause they were like, "This is either... "
Christine Schiefer: Probably a psychiatric hold.
Em Schulz: Yeah, right. It's like either this is so true, the government needs to get involved, or it's...
Christine Schiefer: Right, fair point.
Em Schulz: Not true and hospitals need to get involved.
Christine Schiefer: They have probably multiple motives here. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So that night they have him in a room. He goes back to his room, um, and I guess this is around the same time when they're developing the pictures. Uh, they go try to get him the next morning and he's gone, fully vanished. And the door had CCTV on it the whole time, so there was only one way in, one way out and he never left and there's no explanation for how he disappeared. He just wasn't in his room the next day.
Christine Schiefer: What the F.
Em Schulz: My first thought was like, "Oh, the government got involved and kidnapped him and made him disappear."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and like just took him. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But, uh, I don't know if that's possible, I guess. I... That's, that was my first thought, but that doesn't seem to be the majority theory.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Um, but anyway, so he's vanished and now they're like, "Well, what do we do? Like, do we just keep going with this like investigation? Do we like try to look for him again? Where do we look for him? When do we look for him? Like what... Like what happened?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they're trying to learn...
Christine Schiefer: Help. [laughter]
Em Schulz: They're trying to learn more about Sergei to get some like information uh, and when going through old archives and old police reports, they learn that there was a Sergei, uh, sorry, a Sergei Ponomarenko who was declared missing in Kyiv in 1960.
Christine Schiefer: No. By the way, it took them two years to declare him missing? Like, he just appeared?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know if I were like... I wonder if back in those days, it was like... I don't... Like... I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: It was like, "Well, maybe he'll be back. Maybe he just... " Like when the fiancee reported it, they're like, "He probably just ran away, didn't wanna marry you."
Em Schulz: Well, so they also knew that his fiancee's... They knew his fiancee's name 'cause he had told them, and so they looked her up...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And they looked up Valentina Karish and they found a 74-year-old woman named...
Christine Schiefer: No!
Em Schulz: Valentina Karish who was still nearby.
Christine Schiefer: I'm losing my mind. This is crazy.
Em Schulz: So they go meet her. They show her the picture of Sergei in the missing person's reports and the picture that the police had in the missing person's report.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: She had that exact same picture. And she said, "Yep, that's, that's my fiance and... "
Christine Schiefer: "That's my boy." [giggles] "Where the fuck is he?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So apparently, uh, they showed her the picture and she said Sergei did disappear, 'cause they were saying like he was saying it was 1958 and he just vanished from 1958.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: She said he actually did vanish in 1958, the same year that he was claiming it was, but showed up a few days later and the amount of time that he was missing was the same amount of time that he was in 2006.
Christine Schiefer: Woah!
Em Schulz: And then, so then he eventually returned and he went missing a few more times. So that would explain the 1960. And then...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh.
Em Schulz: He disappeared again in the 1970s, but after that he never returned. So now...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: The investigators are thinking, "We got him in some sort of time jump in 1958, but after that, he's time jumped more and now we really don't know where he is because...
Christine Schiefer: He's just lost in the sauce of, of, of time.
Em Schulz: It's like, we thought we found him... We thought he would jump back to like 50 years ago, but then 50 years ago, another like 12 years after that, he's gone. And now, who fucking knows where he is?
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So it's one of those trippy things of like, well in the, in the future... In the past, we did this, but in the future, he does this. It's very crazy.
Christine Schiefer: It's very trippy.
Em Schulz: So, uh, anyway, apparently she said in the 1970s, he vanished and this time, it was for good. And even though she never saw him again, one day she got this weird piece of mail...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And found that it was a picture of him...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: That was sent to her. And he was in Kyiv and he was standing with the skyline of the city behind him, but the skyline had more buildings than it should have, as if the buildings were built at a later date and he was sending a picture from the future.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And the picture was dated 2050.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. At least we know Kyiv's not gonna go totally down, right, if this is true.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Can you imagine also... Yeah, I know, I know, given how...
Christine Schiefer: It's a good sign.
Em Schulz: Everything is.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine though...
Christine Schiefer: How scary.
Em Schulz: Being an, an investigator being like, "Well, I guess if we just wait another 30 fucking years."
Christine Schiefer: Seriously. Like I'll be retired. I'm not me, but the sheriff or whatever would be like, "I'll be retired by then."
Em Schulz: I guess at that point though, if you know it's taken in 2050, for the entire year, just have someone around the clock exactly where he took the picture to grab him...
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, that's a great point. Like somebody has to be waiting. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So she gets this picture in the mail. It's dated 2050. It's a skyline that has not yet existed. And on the back of the photo is a handwritten note that says, "Dearest Valentina, everything is fine with me. I will try to return when I can. Yours, Sergei."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. So, so, so that first one when, in 2006 must have been the first time this happened?
Em Schulz: Yeah, and apparently he's just been bopped around and just so fucking used to it.
Christine Schiefer: And now he's like, "I get it now." Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's like got a whole system where he can mail things in the past and shit. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, blow our gourds from the future. It's crazy. I'm so impressed.
Em Schulz: A good old gourd-blowing. And so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Don't put that on the shirt either, Eva.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So now she's got this letter and she never heard from him again. So he knows how to mail things into the past, but not get back to the past.
Christine Schiefer: He also knows how to leave a girl hanging, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, maybe he just wasn't that into you.
Christine Schiefer: Just stringing her along. Every now and then she get... Like she's with a new man, and then all of a sudden this photo of her futuristic boyfriend appears and her person's like, "Seriously? This guy?"
Em Schulz: Although she's now 74 and still had this picture ready to give to the police, so she's still waiting on him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, poor thing. Maybe she's like, "Well, I'll go back, too."
Em Schulz: Right, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, back in time.
Em Schulz: So, uh, after that, he was really never heard of again. The last thing we know is that he apparently will be in Ukraine in 2050 in front of this skyline.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'll be waiting.
Em Schulz: And then in 2011, so just over 10 years ago for us, uh a documentary that is only in Russian and has to be translated into English to watch the whole thing, uh, it is called "The Time Traveler" and it's about Sergei. Um, so if you are able to get access to that and speak Russian, you can watch that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Also, there was a Ukrainian TV show called "Aliens".
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And episode three was dedicated to the story of Sergei Ponomarenko.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And if this is true, if all this really did happen and he really did time travel, the running theory is that because the last picture in his camera was of a UFO, and then he got blasted into another time period...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, they think that maybe the UFO like noticed him noticing them and reacted or like tried to zap him away and something happened and he wormholed into another time zone or another time period.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, but then I wonder like, but then why would they zap him back to his own time or to other time periods or like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Do you wonder... Do you think maybe it could be like accidental, like they did something to him and now it's like a glitch where he like can't control it?
Em Schulz: Like, I wonder if it was part of... 'Cause I mean, it would make sense with other abduction stories where like you lose track of time. So maybe they like accidentally flipped one switch and not the other. So instead of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Making him forget the time he was in, they accidentally moved him to a different fucking time. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yeah, it feels like almost uh, uh, a little bit of a hiccup in their planning, or like they, maybe they reacted like spontaneously and accidentally fucked it up somehow.
Em Schulz: I like to think there was like an alien onboard who was supposed to be in charge of that and he like tripped and fell onto a lever and it like...
Christine Schiefer: And he still won't admit it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And he's like, "Oh no, it was like faulty technology. It wasn't me." [laughter] But, so now he's got like... I don't know if the theory is then that he now has this like power to time jump or if they are constantly watching him and keeping tabs on him and they keep trying to...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Are they trying to bring him back to his own time and keep fucking up? Like, I don't fucking know.
Christine Schiefer: Or are they just like using... Is this now an experiment, you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That he's part of? Huh.
Em Schulz: All I know is he probably regrets taking that last picture of a UFO.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would think so.
Em Schulz: This is uh, a PSA for everybody. If you see something in the sky, turn around, walk away. [laughter] That's all.
Christine Schiefer: No frickin' way. Take a picture and email it to us immediately. I'm not listening.
Em Schulz: From 2050. From...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Mail us a postcard. No. Uh, I don't know. I feel like if I saw something, we all have iPhones now, like the aliens can't just zap everybody who tries to take a picture.
Em Schulz: That also makes me wonder like, how familiar are they with our technology for them to know he was using a camera? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they didn't know he was using a camera. Maybe they just sensed that he was...
Em Schulz: Seeing them?
Christine Schiefer: Seeing them. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe they thought the camera was a weapon because he was like aiming it at them.
Christine Schiefer: And it was all old and bulky.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't know. Like, do aliens today know when our iPhone is taking a picture of them?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well, you know, you hear this in, uh, stories where anytime there's like, um, an anomaly or a cryptid sighting or something weird and you go back and watch the CCTV, it just like skips or it glitches. It's almost like... Or if you try to take a photo of UFO, it just turns out black or a ghost. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah, like they know something.
Christine Schiefer: We hear that all the time. It's like, it either just doesn't function with our technology or they can block it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit, Em.
Em Schulz: So the theory is that they reacted somehow and it caused him to start glitching through time periods. And uh...
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: This, uh, again, this enables the theory that aliens and UFOs are capable of space-time travel that we are not capable of.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: According to Einstein's Theory of Relativity, which I will not be getting into, is, uh...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That'll be my story. This, this episode. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's the true crime.
Christine Schiefer: It is the true crime. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So very simply put, Einstein has said that time travel is possible, but we would have to move so unbelievably like, like speed of light fast to even...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Experience like uh, a blip of time travel...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And we just don't have the technology for it. But theoretically, it is possible.
Christine Schiefer: It's possible. And technology is exponentially advancing, so...
Em Schulz: Yeah. And uh...
Christine Schiefer: With AI, like maybe AI can add to it, you know.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Can you imagine if you just like go into like ChatGPT and you're like, "I need you to tell me the formula to time travel."
Christine Schiefer: Can you please like... Well, that's what I'm currently doing. I'm typing out, um, in ChatGPT, [laughter] "What is Einstein's, uh, theory of relativity?" 'Cause I'm supposed to cover it in two minutes and I don't know what it is. [laughter] I'm actually asking them to tell me. So it's actually working pretty great.
Em Schulz: They, they... It is pretty interesting. I was watching videos on it and I was like, it's just not worth getting into today, but...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But some of, some of the experiments they've done to prove that time travel exists is very... I mean, they've, they've done experiments that have shown technically time travel, but it is so, so like, so, uh, like not a, not a... [sigh] what's wrong with me? Am I... Can I speak? I don't have...
Christine Schiefer: Like such a minuscule...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Like on such a small scale, like a micro scale.
Em Schulz: That.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like they were using like super accurate clocks and flying like at like, at like rocket speed to then show that that accurate clock is actually now a second behind like other clocks.
Christine Schiefer: Like a millisecond back. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Which, I mean, it was pretty powerful. I remember that. And I feel like that's pretty incredible because, I mean, all we need to do is...
Em Schulz: Be lightning fast, [laughter] speed of light fast.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, but like think about 50 years ago, like the thought of a fucking ChatGPT would've been outrageous. So like, you never know in...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 30 years if we will just suddenly be able to do that, um, and make it a reality.
Em Schulz: Be bonkers. So they think that since technically, time travel is possible, we just don't have the advanced technology for that, maybe the UFO that saw him, they do have the advanced technology for that, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: They accidentally warped him from one place to another. Um...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "He's not used to this. Oh, shit, I forgot."
Em Schulz: "He's new here."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, There is... After all of this, there is, however, a very large chance that none of this is true for obvious reasons, but uh, some examples that people have used are that the discontinued camera film, even though it was not manufactured anymore since the 1970s, it was still something you could purchase through the '90s.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So only 10 years from 2006, he could have found it in his basement, taken a picture.
Christine Schiefer: But like, for what? I guess just to cause a scene, I guess.
Em Schulz: I guess so. I mean, he fucking nailed it if he was trying to like, like pull one over us 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: But like, what did he get out of it?
Em Schulz: Personal...
Christine Schiefer: Satisfaction?
Em Schulz: Private bragging rights. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: And then like decades later, they find... Oh no, it wasn't decades later they found the fiancee. It was like that time, right? Was it in 2006 they found her?
Em Schulz: They found her in 2006.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. So I don't know.
Em Schulz: So maybe... I mean, also, I guess if you wanted to pull an elaborate ruse, you could just go in the phone book and after Apple, find the next person who's like in there, just pick a name, and then just like show people a picture of a random girl and just be like, "Oh, that's... That... This is her name. She's 74."
Christine Schiefer: But then why would she have the photo?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: No, what I'm saying is maybe that was his actual fiancee and he was, or his... Some lady he actually knew and was like, "Here, when the police come, show them this photo." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: But like, it seems so ridiculous. Like why would you get your 74-year-old neighbor to do this weird prank with you?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It's just odd.
Em Schulz: Maybe like his grandpa had the same name as him and the grandpa dated that woman and that grandpa left her randomly in the '70s and he looks very weirdly similar to him, so the picture matched his face.
Christine Schiefer: That explains it.
Em Schulz: I don't know. So anyway...
Christine Schiefer: And he learned Photoshop and could make that weird... That, that 2050, uh, skyline.
Em Schulz: Well, so they say the camera film technically could have been purchased in, in 2006 and still been pretty much in perfect condition. They also say that, um, the cop they interviewed that found him said this all happened on a Tuesday, but April 23rd, 2006 was on a Sunday. That could be a genuine mistake.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, also apparently, the Soviet Union ID card that he showed the cops had the wrong seal stamped on it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But this was also a picture that was used for the show, "Aliens". So maybe it was just like a random graphic designer error for like, as like... It was just like a random B-roll to show on the show...
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh.
Em Schulz: Of like... And his card looked like this and like maybe they just like...
Christine Schiefer: They just made up, made up a fake one.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and like the...
Christine Schiefer: For, for a prop.
Em Schulz: And... Yeah. And whoever did the art didn't know the history of what seal goes on a card. So it could have been an error from the show. Also, Sergei apparently told them he was born in June, but the ID that was shown on television said in March. Again, that could have been a similar art error. Um, and the CCTV footage had the wrong date on it. Uh, but cameras have wrong dates all the fucking time.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, and then just like you said, the pic from 2050, the buildings in the skyline could have been photoshopped, especially because one of them does look exactly like the Empire State Building.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, okay. That's not reassuring.
Em Schulz: But that picture was also used on the television show, show, so it could have been a dramatization and like... 'Cause what's interesting is if this story is real, all of the photos and all the documents and all the CCTV footage that we have was actually just used in this show, Aliens, and they were all re-enactments.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Now I'm getting it.
Em Schulz: So all the clips were dramatizations including the CCTV footage, any interviews, they were all not the real people. They were all reenactors doing restoration scenes. So even though... I think the, the, the major problem, which this is... Um, one of the YouTubers, his name was Joe Scott. He was the one that I guess figured all this out, so credit to him. But, uh, it seems like this footage from the Aliens show, which was a Ukrainian show, was only on for a season, made all these dramatization scenes and clips for the show, and then because we never had the show, when it got spread online, we took all this and thought it was real footage and real interviews and real documents.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And so now it seems like this story might be a total bust and everything we know is just from artwork they made for the TV show.
Christine Schiefer: So like you think they made it up on this TV show?
Em Schulz: I think it was... I don't know, but my bet...
Christine Schiefer: Like they invented...
Em Schulz: My bet is this is essentially an urban legend or a creepy pasta or something and they heard the story and just kind of ran with it as a segment...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And had to make all the art from scratch. 'Cause I think the story they go with is like, "Oh, the actual documents have never been able to be found," and it's like, well that's shady. But also, I guess you could blame like a government conspiracy on that. So they had to make everything from scratch 'cause they didn't have the originals.
Christine Schiefer: And it's not like Ukraine right now has other things on their mind, you know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right. So uh, Joe, he said maybe these were dramatizations, but if they were, if there were really documents and footage, where are they? And he also looked for police records of like the missing persons information. He looked for proof that the doctor or the photographer were real. And he even tried to reach out from that 2011 Russian documentary. He tried to reach out to like the producers of it. Like he tried to reach out to anybody that would have any information on where he could find real intel or real proof that this story is true.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he couldn't find anything.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, man.
Em Schulz: So it seems like this story just kind of ended up becoming an episode of a show, and then all that footage got spread online and it kind of...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Built upon itself as this big scary time travel urban legend story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I... Like I want it to be real so bad. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I do too. And uh, I did... This was a hard one to do any research for because apparently there are other famous Sergei Ponomarenkos. Um, they're all athletes. One is an Olympic ice dancer and the other two are professional football players. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: If you look him up, time traveler is not like the top link. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You'd think it would be, but apparently, sports won this time.
Em Schulz: I am impressed that someone was like an Olympian, but also time traveler still beats you in my mind. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, sorry. In our circles, not as impressive.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So uh, I tried, but it seems like all of this might just be a total bust and...
Christine Schiefer: Man, I knew these stories always kind of end up like that 'cause otherwise, like we would all know more about it. But I still love them 'cause it's like there's such an air of mystery about it still that's like, could still be possible, you know.
Em Schulz: I, I want it so badly to be real, but also my first thought would be if it was real, the government would make sure we never knew about it or something.
Christine Schiefer: Right. True point, true point.
Em Schulz: 'Cause like how easy is it...
Christine Schiefer: But it's a different government, so you know...
Em Schulz: That's true. But I think of like Russian spies and like... I think of like Ukraine... Like I think of like... Those were like...
Christine Schiefer: Especially during... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fair.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, Soviet Union, right? Like I, I feel like you just hear like these like buzzwords of like, oh, really intense governments that like, are not going to...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Let that shit slip through the cracks.
Christine Schiefer: Understood. That does make some sense. Yes.
Em Schulz: But anyway, so I would love for it to be real, but um, it seems like this was all... I don't know where the story would have started from or where it would've, you know... I don't know where it would've, where it would've came from. But I will say the, the TV show Aliens, they even say uh, it like... You know how a lot of TV shows will have like uh, a warning come up like before the, the episode starts?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, sure.
Em Schulz: Like, like a PSA or something. It even says uh, that all of these... Uh, it said something like, "All of this footage is re-enactments and we cannot confirm that the story is true." And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It seems almost like pretty much right away they're telling you this is a fake story and this is for like, just the sake of storytelling.
Christine Schiefer: Man. Aww, man!
Em Schulz: But man, what a good story if it were real.
Christine Schiefer: I want it to be real, Em.
Em Schulz: If he is in 2050, he has access to old vintage podcast from 2023 and maybe we're...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] You're so right.
Em Schulz: Maybe we're talking about him and he's hearing it. If he...
Christine Schiefer: Hello? Can you hear me?
Em Schulz: If he pops up in my room right now, I will scream my little face off.
Christine Schiefer: Who's that behind you? [laughter] I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: Stop. You did pause and I was like, "What's going on?" Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Ah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, if he's real, and if any time travelers are real, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Just someone say hi.
Em Schulz: Maybe send us, send us a picture of you in front of a skyline that doesn't exist yet, you know.
Christine Schiefer: We'll be quiet.
Em Schulz: We won't say anything except, unless the government like holds me for information, then I will absolutely crack. So keep that in mind.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, we can't promise that under any sort of pressure, even slight pressure that we won't crack. We can't promise that.
Em Schulz: Like even the threat of pressure, I...
Christine Schiefer: Even... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Will spill. So...
Christine Schiefer: Even uh, kind of an eyebrow raise and I'm done, you know. I don't really have much, uh, much more than that.
Em Schulz: I have seen like the... It's... Was a meme that went around for a long time in like college, but it was like uh, if future you doesn't come... "If your future you doesn't time travel back to the past to stop you from doing the thing you're about to do, how bad can it really be?" And I'm like, [laughter] it feels like such a chaotic Christine move of like, if I wasn't supposed to and future me really cared that much, future me would show up.
Christine Schiefer: Someone should have stepped in by now. You know what I'm saying? [giggles]
Em Schulz: And I feel like uh... I wonder sometimes like, why hasn't like future me shown up to prevent me from anything? And I'm like, honestly, because we both, me and future me know that I would freak the fuck out. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You couldn't handle it, you know. You'd be like...
Em Schulz: At all.
Christine Schiefer: "I know myself. They can't handle it."
Em Schulz: The closest thing to time travel I will ever have is surprising myself with chocolate-covered strawberries from future me, or past me.
Christine Schiefer: Which honestly is probably the best way we could all hope to experience it.
Em Schulz: There's, there's uh uh, I guess like a meme account. I don't know their... I think they're called like Frog Witch or something. I follow them on Instagram.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But they, they have uh, a shirt with a frog on it and it says uh, "Sleep is just a time machine to breakfast, my dudes," and I'm like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, yeah. I have that...
Em Schulz: I'm like, "Man, I love that."
Christine Schiefer: I have that on my Pinterest of like... I have a Pinterest board of like things to put, um, on my little letter board, and uh, that's one of my favorites. "Sleep is just a time machine to breakfast." You haven't heard that before?
Em Schulz: Oh, I've heard it. I've... I... Every time I go past one of their pictures, I feel like I see it.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like that's been a... I feel like that's been a thing for like... I think I used to say that in like college when I thought I was really deep.
Em Schulz: Deep?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But it, it still, it still gets me like... I've heard it probably 100 times now and it still gets me going every time 'cause I'm like, that is the closest thing to time travel is if I close my eyes long enough and then open them, I'll be in a different time period.
Christine Schiefer: And you know what the most ironic part is? You and I have insomnia, so like, what the fuck?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, why can't we just be like, it's time travel...
Em Schulz: That's such a good point.
Christine Schiefer: To food, to our favorite meal? And we literally still can't do it.
Em Schulz: Maybe that's how I need to... Maybe that's how I need to start thinking about going to bed. I'm like, "Ugh, got, gotta... " Kinda like how like I couldn't take my vitamins, so I'm like, "Oh, I have to go to the apothecary." Like how to make it fun.
Christine Schiefer: To make it uh, a spectacle.
Em Schulz: It's like, "Oh, I have to go to bed? No."
Christine Schiefer: Wait a second.
Em Schulz: "Oh, I have to go time travel."
Christine Schiefer: Your bed is now a time travel capsule. You have to put like lights and a door and you have to make it a spectacle.
Em Schulz: It's, it's a time machine. It's a DeLorean.
Christine Schiefer: You need to make a DeLorean.
Em Schulz: Desnorian. Nope, that was bad.
Christine Schiefer: A Desnorian. I... It's better than all the other bullshit ones you say. No offense. [laughter] Um, I... What about, what about this? You know how they have those race car beds? You can make a DeLorean racecar bed.
Em Schulz: Shut the fuck up, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: You know, and then you can seriously be like, "I'm getting into my time machine." I love it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Don't look it up, 'cause I wanna make it for you for your birthday.
Em Schulz: If...
Christine Schiefer: It's kinda late now. It's in two days. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I'm pretty... If anyone knew how to make a custom race car bed look like a DeLorean, the price, the limit does not exist. I...
Christine Schiefer: Don't Google it. I'm telling you right now not to Google it.
Em Schulz: Does it exist?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know yet. Just don't Google it 'cause I have something I have to do.
Em Schulz: I'm not kidding.
Christine Schiefer: I'll tell you once I've given up and you can Google it. Does that work?
Em Schulz: Okay, that's fine. Yeah, that's perfect.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. And Christine, I don't know if you can tell... Oh, where is it?
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Oh, you can't really see it. Here's my floor, everybody. Uh, back here...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: That's a hoverboard pillow. I could literally...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I could have that in my DeLorean and I could sleep on my little hoverboard.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] It's like literally couldn't be more perfect.
Em Schulz: I am a sayin'. Oh my God. And I have his Back to the Future 2015 future shoes as slippers. I mean, come on now.
Christine Schiefer: Who the fuck are we kidding here?
Em Schulz: I mean, come on now.
Christine Schiefer: Who the fuck are we even kidding?
Em Schulz: So that's three reasons right there for why we... I mean, we got the pillow, we got the slippers, we got the bed. It's a happening.
Christine Schiefer: It... There's literally no other reason it can't happen.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, the flux capacitor could be a nightlight. I have to get out of here. Okay. We have to talk about true crime.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I have to force you to listen to something terrible.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's how this works, right? [laughter] Help me. Alright. And that was a great story, by the way, I just wanna, I wanna say. Um, I...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Really loved it. It was one of my favorites. I love, I love time travel-y conspiracy shit like that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You know I love it. And I've honestly never ended a story better by fantasizing about my DeLorean sleep set, so...
Christine Schiefer: Your own time travel, uh, opportunities.
Em Schulz: I, I promise you my sleep would, would improve by 5000000%.
Christine Schiefer: I think I'm gonna fix your insomnia. Just give me like a few minutes after this episode.
Em Schulz: I think you need to talk to like a sleep clinic and tell them you've cured it, in fact.
Christine Schiefer: I've cured it for one person. So you know, that... It's one one step., step forward.
Em Schulz: Oh My God, I'm so excited about it. Oh my God, I'm so excited. Okay, okay, okay...
Christine Schiefer: I'll figure it out. Uh, so this is the story of Nona Dirksmeyer.
Em Schulz: Nona Dirksmeyer, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And she was a lovely lady born to Paul and Carol Yvette Larpenter Dirksmeyer. That's one name.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: One name. It's like when I initially planned to make Schiefer-Lampugnale part of our names and it would've been...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Christina Maria Schiefer-Lampugnale and it's just too much, you know?
Em Schulz: Uh yeah, that's almost crazier than Sergei Ponomarenko.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Almost.
Em Schulz: Almost. Not quite, but almost.
Christine Schiefer: But not quite. But you've proven you could probably say it. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I'll, maybe I'll go back to the drawing board. So those were her parents. She was born in 1985, day after Christmas, and she grew up extremely social, involved with her community. She volunteered with Big Brother's Big Sisters. She competed in local beauty pageants. She's basically like the exact epitome of the cliche, she lit up a room...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: She was beautiful, everyone loved her. What could ever go wrong? I mean, you know, all of those tropes were true for Nona. She competed in local beauty pageants. She was crowned county fair queen, Miss Teen Mount Nebo among other awards, and above all else, she loved and adored singing.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So for that reason, when she graduated high school in '04, she decided to pursue a degree in music education at Arkansas Tech University in a town called Russellville, Arkansas. In this pretty small town, she was a member of their concert choral and their chamber choir. And by the end of 2005, Nona was a thriving 19-year-old sophomore in college. She had a committed relationship with her long-term boyfriend, Kevin Jones. They actually had been high school sweethearts, uh, who planned to spend the rest of their lives together. And Kevin, for what it's worth, came from a stable, happy home. He was very friendly, low-key, very well liked in his community, and Nona was head over heels for him. They were basically in this like, in that sweet spot of like...
Em Schulz: Puppy love.
Christine Schiefer: High school sweethearts, puppy love, but like it's working even though they're long distance now.
Em Schulz: The Cory and Topanga.
Christine Schiefer: The Cory and Topanga, yes. Like it actually worked, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is always so cool to see.
Em Schulz: Like, we're like... I feel like in a lot of high school romance, even if it's very sweet, you're like, "Oh, but it won't last."
Christine Schiefer: It's never gonna last, yeah.
Em Schulz: But we're rooting for them.
Christine Schiefer: But we want it to last. And so, you know, they, they were, they were doing great. And, um, Nona's mother, uh, loved Kevin Nona's boyfriend. Um, she described him as a really caring person and uh, you know, Nona had recently been struggling with some deep personal issues and Kevin was extremely supportive and there for her, even though he was only like a 19-year-old boy, basically. And Kevin's family loved Nona too, which I also love when the two families really get along. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Me, too.
Christine Schiefer: I think, I think that's hard to find and I think that's really important.
Em Schulz: Your families have that.
Christine Schiefer: I, I'm so lucky 'cause I've definitely dated enough people where it's not at all been that way. Um...
Em Schulz: I don't think I've ever had that where like everyone... I mean, not in a bad way. I think it's always been like everyone has no problems with each other, which is the...
Christine Schiefer: Which is great.
Em Schulz: I'm totally fine with that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I've, I've never had the like...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause we've seen worse. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, I had... We've talked about my, my old boss Nene...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And her husband and their two parents, they met obviously through like their kids dating, and now they like go on their own vacations without Nene and her husband.
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Like they love each other and became like best friends with each other and like have cookouts and like don't even like... They forget to invite their own kids. They just love each other.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "Wait, you're together?" "Oh shit, did we not invite you?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] How, how convenient of a love is that?
Christine Schiefer: But guaranteed, the second that they have children, uh, if they have children, the parents are gonna be like, "Okay, now we want you to come over 'cause we wanna see our grandchild," and it's like, "Okay. It was never about us. Okay, got it."
Em Schulz: Right, right. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, so like I said, Kevin's family love Nona as well. His father even said, "She was not a girlfriend or whatever, she was part of our family," which is just so special. So in college, Nona and Kevin stayed in touch by phone and Nona was really big into communication. Uh, they spoke every single day for four and a half years and they texted every day throughout the day and it became kind of a running joke where if Kevin took too long to reply, she would jokingly text, "You alive?"
Em Schulz: Oh no, I see where this is going.
Christine Schiefer: Oh... So on December 15th, 2005, Kevin hadn't heard from her in hours, which was immediately weird to him. Um, he said this break in their long-time pattern raised a red flag immediately in his mind.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so at first he tried to ignore the feeling and as a joke, he texted Nona her usual line, "You alive?"
Em Schulz: She wasn't.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. And there was no response. And so now he's getting actually really nervous and he couldn't shake the feeling. Um, but he was supposed to drive his mom to a Christmas party that night, so he asked, uh, a friend of his named Ryan who worked at a pizza place near Nona's apartment to go check on her. So Ryan went and told Kevin that Nona's car was in her parking spot, her apartment lights were on, but she didn't answer the door, which was very odd. If the lights are on, her car's there, she must be home. She's not answering the door. So Kevin, like basically driving his mother to the party, they basically were like 180 and drove to Nona's place 'cause now they're both worried. And so they keep knocking and ringing the doorbell. There's no answer. And so Kevin's starting to get frantic. He runs around the side of the house where he knows there's a sliding glass door. He didn't even look inside. He just tried the door and it opened. And at this point, his friend Ryan says, "Man, do you not see her?"
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: He was like, "What?" And Ryan says, "Dude... "
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: "There she is." And as they look through the doorway, they could see Nona lying on the floor in the front room.
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: And in Kevin's panic, he hadn't even noticed at first. So Kevin rushed to Nona's side. Ryan let Kevin's mom in through the front door. Kevin immediately basically straddled her and started doing CPR while his mom called 911.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Um, the call was emotional. I've heard clips of it. Uh, she could not stop crying. She told the operator Nona's name and address. And Kevin talked to Nona while he was doing CPR like, you know, "Come back, sweetie," like, "you're okay, you'll be okay," and uh, unfortunately, as you already predicted, uh, she was, unfortunately, too far gone for any sort of intervention at this point.
Em Schulz: What did she look like? Was she like bloodied up?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yes, I will, um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I will give you the deets momentarily. So police and paramedics arrive and they pretty quickly tell Kevin that Nona is gone. And Kevin's mom remembers hearing Kevin cry out so loudly in anguish that it sounded like he was howling...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Like, his grief was just, like, escaping him.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And that's when Nona's own mother, Carol, came by to check on what was happening.
Em Schulz: Fuck.
Christine Schiefer: And police had to tell her right there in front of her daughter's apartment that she had definitely been murdered. So this wasn't an accidental thing, this wasn't, um, a suicide, this was a murder. And what had happened is Nona had been stabbed repeatedly. And she suffered violent blunt force trauma to her head, which was inflicted with the base of a metal table lamp.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, very brutal. So from the start, this case, as we can probably, uh, see, a little foreshadowing, was going to be a media frenzy because Nona was young, popular, beautiful, blonde, um, sociable, you know, was... Had the photos of the pageantry and all this. So the murder was violent. It seemed personal. And her case basically fit that exact format of the cases. We see news outlets kind of elevate above all other true crime stories. It was also the lead detective, Mark Frost's first homicide case ever in his career.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: So he felt a lot of pressure to figure the shit out fast.
Em Schulz: Yeah, no pressure at all.
Christine Schiefer: No pressure. So with no time to waste, police told Kevin, the boyfriend, that they had a few questions and they took him directly from the crime scene to an interrogation room. He didn't have a lawyer present. Um, I, I imagine he was still in shock. And he was asked questions like whether he had a key to Nona's apartment. Yes, he did. And, quote, "I'm not accusing you of anything, but did you hurt her tonight?"
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so Kevin told the officer that he would kill himself before he ever hurt Nona.
Em Schulz: Yeah, with the... Like that howling grief cry, I'd be...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Honestly, as a cop, even if it's protocol, I'd be like, I can skip those questions.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like, I, I know.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I can sense that, yes, that that's real. So when officers left the room, like any time that they left the room, uh, you can see on the CCTV, Kevin just like fucking falling apart.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Like he starts sobbing. He's talking out loud. He's saying things like, "She didn't deserve this. She deserved a life." And, "Oh my God, please tell me, what am I gonna do?" Like he was in full-on...
Em Schulz: Shock, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Beside himself, hysterics, like just beyond. And he got angry. He was like punching the back of his chair. He was sobbing. Like, he was just so overwhelmed. And this kid's 19. This is the love of his life. Like, he found her body bloodied. I mean, horrific. So some people were looking at this and feeling like, "Hmm, this is a little bit of erratic behavior," um, but also, like we just said, he's just performed CPR on a murdered loved one of his. He's only 19. Like, his frontal lobe isn't even fully formed yet. Of course, he's freaking the fuck out. But cops saw it as like just erratic and strange and guilty. They, they...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They saw it as like guilty behavior. So as you just said, Kevin was going through acute shock, definitely trauma, and he was alone without legal representation, but not only that, without emotional support. So finally, they... I mean, he has had no time to process this, like no time to talk to his own mother. So finally, they tell him to go home for a few days. Um, they were gonna question a couple other people in Nona's life. Uh, but when they did this, they called him back and said, "Sorry, all the other guys in her life, their alibis checked out."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: "So you need to come back in, my friend, and take a polygraph test."
Em Schulz: I can't even imagine how distraught I would be and like... So like...
Christine Schiefer: How terrifying is that?
Em Schulz: Which like, this is no different than, I'm sure, half the stories we cover, but to, to know that... To be so distraught and at the same time to have to deal with like one of the biggest stresses of your life that you could go to jail for it, like, I mean, I can't imagine juggling the two worst things that could happen to you at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: No, that's so true, because... And I've heard... As you know, I watch a lot of true crime documentaries. I know, shocking. Um, but I've heard many times when they interview the partner or they interview the family or friend, um, and who, who ended up not having done it, they say, they describe that feeling as, you know, you're being interrogated as if you've done this horrible thing, so you can't even grieve it yet because like, you're defend... You're in defense mode. You're like defending yourself.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You haven't even had time to process that your sister, girlfriend, wife, whatever, was murdered because you're like, "I didn't do this." It, it's like a double, like you, you suddenly now have two, two horrible things to grieve and be traumatized by.
Em Schulz: And like which one do you pay attention to? Which one do you focus on?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. How could you... Yeah, and you'd have to do self-preservation. Like you'd have to say, "It wasn't me," so that we can find the real killer. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: I feel like I would so desperately have to focus on the, "I don't wanna go to jail" thing, but you're so distracted by the, "The love of my life is dead" thing.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And so it's, it's horrifying to see like he's having a breakdown, of course, and they're using that as evidence that he's guilty of murdering her, which is like unfair.
Em Schulz: It's so wild that no matter what your response is, if you're the boyfriend of a dead girlfriend, you're guilty.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, that's wild. Like... Because you could range from that one guy who killed his wife and two daughters and he didn't have any reaction and it freaked everyone out, to wailing like a banshee 'cause you're so...
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, "Wow, what an actor."
Em Schulz: Yeah. So no matter what, you're fucked.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. It's really scary how, uh... And you know what, actually, interestingly enough, he does talk about that later during the trial. He talks about like how he felt like any move he made, he was like, they were... The jury was gonna read into it, you know? And uh, he felt like, "There was nothing I could do that was right 'cause somebody would read into it." So, anyway, they call him in, they asked him to take a polygraph test. He still has no legal representation. So folks out there, I know that there's a lot of mixed stuff because it's like, "Well, why would you get a lawyer if you're innocent?" but you're owed a lawyer in this case, and you don't have to say anything.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. Like, call... Get a lawyer. Lawyer up.
Em Schulz: Even, even if I never did anything wrong, like I'm saying it now in case anyone ever... If something ever happens and you hear me getting a lawyer, don't take it as any sign of suspicion. I'm doing it because I fucking don't trust myself.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause we do true crime podcasts and we know how fucked it can be when you don't have a lawyer and they use it against you.
Em Schulz: The system is against you. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you need somebody on your side.
Em Schulz: Get a lawyer. No matter how innocent you are, get a lawyer.
Christine Schiefer: I think it's worth it. And especially if you're being asked to, in a murder trial, to take a polygraph.
Em Schulz: And you're so distraught, you're not thinking straight anyway, so you could accidentally talk yourself into being guilty even though you haven't done anything.
Christine Schiefer: And by the way, your lawyer will probably be like, "No, he's not taking a polygraph test." Do you know what I mean? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they can defend you in that way. So they asked him to take a polygraph and, um, he did. And so the man giving the test told Kevin, he had never seen someone fail a polygraph as badly as Kevin did in his 20-plus-year career.
Em Schulz: Oof. But also, I don't know... I don't know enough about polygraphs, but if you're that distraught, I feel like your body is not registering right, right? Or am I wrong?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, all I'm gonna say is there is a reason that they are not admissible in court as evidence. So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know, for... I, I don't know enough either. Um, I know they're making different advances and, uh, there's ways around the answers and that kind of thing. Um, so I don't know... They could even be lying. I've, I've seen cases where they say, "Wow, you really failed that," even though they didn't fail it. Like they're just saying it because they think you did it and they'll say, "Wow, you really bombed that test," hoping that you'll finally be like, "Oh, you caught me."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know what I'm saying? Like sometimes they'll even just lie and say you failed it even if you didn't. So who knows? But, basically, they told him he failed worse than anyone else has ever failed on a polygraph test. And with no legal representation, uh, you know, Kevin heard them say straight to his face, "Kevin, there is no doubt in my mind that you killed her."
Em Schulz: Ugh. Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: And Kevin said, "You're dead fucking wrong, I'm telling you." Detective Frost talked over him saying, "We are done. You did this. You killed her." And the slight issue there is that there was such a lack of evidence. So police were holding onto this one kind of tenuous piece of evidence. It, it didn't seem tenuous at the time, but it ended up being somewhat tenuous because it was a bloody hand print on the light bulb of the lamp that had been used to kill Nona. And this bloody print was Kevin's.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But the problem was he had climbed on top of her to do CPR...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And was right in the vicinity of all the blood, was, was touching things. Of course, he had contaminated the crime scene with his own DNA.
Em Schulz: I mean, that's why they tell you don't touch anything, because you're getting...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You're messing everything up. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, and he was trying to save her life, so it was like, of course, he's gonna jump in there, but then you can't say, "Well, he touched it." Well, obviously, like he was there. And he's also her boyfriend. Like, his prints are gonna be everywhere anyway.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so that was the only thing they were really riding on. Um, and the lamp itself was less than a foot from Nona's body. And so when Kevin had climbed onto Nona, um, he, he could have like, just leaned on it for leverage to, to get, you know, leverage to do CPR. Um, basically, Kevin's defense said what we just said, which is, uh, investigators should have expected Kevin to contaminate the scene, trying to rescue his girlfriend. Like, duh.
Em Schulz: I mean, especially if you beat people to a crime scene and you just, you find the person you love on the floor...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: You're not gonna not try to grab her.
Christine Schiefer: You can't say like, "Oh, now this is a perfectly clean crime scene that points to the killer, like somebody's been involved now."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And there was one more thing that kind of threw a wrench into the police's theory and that is they found a condom wrapper on the counter of her apartment...
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: And on the condom wrapper was some DNA and it was not her boyfriend, Kevin's.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So things are still somewhat unclear and police did not arrest Kevin that night. Instead, they sent him home and called Nona's mother, Carol to tell her they believed Kevin had killed her daughter. So basically, this boy that has become part of her family, that loved her daughter, that they were gonna get married and they were just so happy together, now she has to deal with not only her daughter dying, but also now she's being told, and her daughter's boyfriend did this to her, someone you trusted and someone she trusted.
Em Schulz: And also assuming that he ends up not actually being the killer, like the reputation that that... Like, he already lost the love of his life and now he's gonna lose his whole support team too, because...
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yep.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. It's, it's stuff like this... I mean, and it... We mentioned it later, but like, court of public opinion can like fucking ruin your life, you know, even if technically, you're not guilty.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. 'Cause it's always gonna like sit in their head then of like maybe...
Christine Schiefer: People get it in their heads. Yeah, yeah. That's exact... And by the way, that's exactly what fucking happened.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So Carol said that the police told her that Kevin was a, quote, "sociopath with a narcissistic personality". Okay, calm down. And she didn't think Nona would let anyone she didn't know inside. So part of her thought, "Well, I guess maybe I just didn't know him well enough." And, um, you know, the investigators told her the stabbing was extremely personal. They said he failed a lie detector test. Like, understandably, she doesn't want to believe this, but she's starting to because she's like, "Well, the police seem to be pretty damn confident," and it made sense to her, you know?
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So now she's grappling with both of these things. And so a week later, police hold a press conference, and they say at this point that they know who the killer is, they just won't name him yet. So this...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Right? So this small town of Russellville, Arkansas quickly put two and two together and are like, "Kevin did it. Oh my God. Kevin killed her."
Em Schulz: Terrible.
Christine Schiefer: So newspapers started publishing headlines like "Nona's Killer Remains Free". People in town started putting "Justice For Nona" bumper stickers on their cars and the town called for Kevin's arrest. Like they were...
Em Schulz: God.
Christine Schiefer: Like a mob, like an angry mob. And 90 days after Nona's death, police filed formal charges against him, and on March 31st, 2006, he was uh, uh, formally arrested and charged with the first degree murder of his girlfriend.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Kevin's family, for what it's worth, at least, were behind him the whole time, 110%. And they had to put up their farm as collateral to afford a good defense lawyer.
Em Schulz: Man.
Christine Schiefer: Which is just so sad. And that's also part of it is like... I know I said, "Lawyer up, lawyer up," but it's like, not every... Most people can't afford a good lawyer. Like, who am...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Who am I to say like, "Get a good lawyer"? Like, I don't know. I don't even know how I would do that. I don't know how to find a good lawyer. [laughter] Like, I guess what I'm saying is...
Em Schulz: I don't.
Christine Schiefer: If you're in that scenario, don't feel like you have to answer everything. Like you can say, "I want a lawyer."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they have to find you one. So that's all I know. Um, we just did a crossover with Sinisterhood and I feel like, um, somewhere, Heather's like, "I feel like someone's saying very incorrect legal things out there in the world." [laughter] So I'm probably saying things very botched, but in any case, there's nothing wrong with getting a lawyer. But... So they had to put up their farm as collateral so that they could uh, get a good defense lawyer. And the trial moved to Ozark because it was impossible for Kevin, obviously, to get a fair trial in Russellville where people literally had bumper stickers telling him to go to jail.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in trial, the prosecution, um, presented their case, but they did have some issues. So Detective Frost and his team had actually failed, interestingly, to fingerprint most of the apartment. They...
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: I know. They only took prints from Nona's body and the area immediately around her.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Nothing else.
Em Schulz: You've never heard of someone like hiding upstairs until you get home or something?
Christine Schiefer: Or the door.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: The sliding door that was unlocked.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Anything? Hello?
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The fucking condom wrapper, we'll get to it, they did not test it.
Em Schulz: [gasp] They didn't?
Christine Schiefer: Nope.
Em Schulz: Trash.
Christine Schiefer: Trash. So there was blood throughout the apartment. It was near the front door. It was on the walls. It was on the blinds. None of that was tested. They didn't collect prints or DNA from any of those spots where the blood had spread.
Em Schulz: It's literally the John Mulaney bit of like, "Hmm... "
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: "Now onto my hunch. Mop that blood up partially."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: "Yuck. Get that away."
Christine Schiefer: "Forget, forget that, uh, wallet someone dropped behind."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Let's go with my hunch instead." I mean, it's ridiculous. So they did not take any DNA from anywhere besides her body. They didn't even take DNA from the empty condom wrapper. And fortunately, the defense was able to have that analyzed because it was still in evidence and that is how they determined that the DNA on the condom wrapper was not Kevin's and that he had never touched it, and another man's DNA was on that condom wrapper. So prosecutors testified that Kevin had murdered Nona in a jealous rage. And they said, "Well, the condom wrapper must have belonged to a man she was cheating with, and Kevin walked in on them and got angry and murdered her." But the jury could not ignore all of the missed evidence. Investigators also failed to collect and analyze any of the bloody footprints in the kitchen, um, the fingerprints on the glass door that had been used by the killer to enter and exit the apartment, like basics.
Em Schulz: Thank God. I, I feel like I would be so worried that if I were ever on trial that the jury was, was not competent or like, was like they wouldn't... 'Cause it's nice to know that at least they were skeptical of the fact that...
Christine Schiefer: They like caught onto that.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I, I would, I would be so worried that it would be... Like, for Kevin's sake, if it's a jury that's just like, "Oh, that makes sense," instead of like critically thinking it through and being like, "Wait a minute, there are some steps."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I think that's also the job of the defense to be like, "Hey, I'm gonna plant some doubt in your minds." You know what I mean? Like...
Em Schulz: Right, right. That's true.
Christine Schiefer: So I think that's almost the... I guess that's the whole game.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Heather, is that right? [laughter] The lawyer on Sinisterhood. [laughter] I don't know. Um, but yeah, so basically, the jury is thinking, "Uh, something's not right here." Um, and the lack of thoroughness here made the jury start doubting pretty much the entire investigation, thankfully. Um, even the alibis of the other men in Nona's life. So in a Dateline interview, the host says, "The police claim that they had checked the alibis of all these potential suspects," and then as they're [chuckle] interviewing the jury, one of the jury members sarcastically replies "Oh, as well as they gathered the evidence?
Em Schulz: Hmm. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And then they all started laughing. [laughter] So like...
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Clearly, they went back to deliberate and were like, "What a fucking bunch of jabronis. They didn't even get the fingerprints off the window."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Kevin's grandmother testified as his alibi, saying Kevin was with her during the killing in Dover, which was miles away, a different town. And finally, Kevin's defense team showed Kevin's full interrogation tapes to the jury to show how distressed Kevin was after finding Nona dead. Because I think if you take the clips out of context, like the prosecution may have done, it could paint a totally different picture. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, they could probably take segments and be like, "Look at what he's saying, like she deserved better." I...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Like, I, I wonder if there was a way to play that. I don't know if they did. Um, but basically, they played the full version and Kevin really came across as grief-stricken, terrified. Um, he did not come off as violent and erratic as they wanted to paint him. And so that was really a, you know, point in his favor for the jury.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I feel like also any of that CCTV footage of him just like fully having a meltdown is... Right?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, that's... They played the whole thing and it was like... When they were able to not just see like snippets, they saw the whole thing, they were like, "Oh, this is a man like in shock and grief."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Not somebody crazy like the police are trying to make us think." So Kevin, during all this, remembers feeling extreme pressure in the courtroom. Like, I mean, imagine you're like 19 and you're in this horrible position. Everyone's looking at you, deciding your fate, like the fate of your life. And he said, quote, "One click of a pen, one bite of a fingernail, any wrong gesture or facial expression could sway the jury against me."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, he felt like they were always staring at him and like he, he didn't know how to compose himself to look innocent, but not like too innocent.
Em Schulz: And then you, and then you end up looking paranoid, and then that could be bad, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. You like, don't wanna smile, you know, obviously, but you don't wanna like fake cry. Like, it's all just... I imagine there's so much that goes into that thought process that probably lawyers have learned to kind of train their clients. I don't know. So in the end, the jury, thankfully, found Kevin Jones not guilty, um, but of course, like you said, his life was forever changed. Um, he was guilty in the court of public opinion, and he had been for months, so his reputation was seriously damaged. Um, but Kevin and his family were still determined to find Nona's real killer, um, both to clear his own name, but also because Nona was the love of his life and he wanted to know who the fuck murdered her.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Everything we were talking about earlier of like all the pressure of like trying to get out of the situation and grieve your, uh, the love of your life. But then the secret third pressure is like someone who killed her is out there...
Christine Schiefer: Now, there is... Right. Now we have to actually figure out who did it. You're right, there's like a whole third lever.
Em Schulz: And no one's helping me.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And nobody believes it 'cause they think it's me. Oh my God. So they decided, his family, to ask this man who was a part-time police officer, part-time preacher for help. This sounds like an HBO series in the making.
Em Schulz: Sounds like a joke my dad would say or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Uh, two months after Kevin's acquittal, they got a lead, uh, speaking of your dad, on a man named Gary. [laughter] So Gary Dunn was one of Nona's neighbors and police actually had questioned him early in the investigation and confirmed his alibi that he was out shopping with his mom. But the team got a hold of the dozens and dozens and dozens of boxes of evidence, this defense team and this pre part-time preacher, this like kinda ragtag team. They get together, they have just... I mean, you know, those uh, legal boxes, like those big banker boxes, just like full, and we saw it on the Dateline show, like just full of evidence. And so they are going one by one through every little scrap of paper, every piece of evidence and they're digging, digging. Finally, finally, hours and hours into this, they find one measly receipt and this receipt proved that Gary Dunn had indeed gone shopping with his mother to the store that he claimed, but it was not on December 15th, the day that she had been murdered. It was on December 13th, two days earlier.
Em Schulz: God damn it.
Christine Schiefer: And the police had just said, "Oh yeah, that checks out," and moved on. So they finally had a slight little lead here.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They were like, "Maybe this guy's up to something." So when asked for his DNA sample, Gary Dunn agreed and gave it to them. And Kevin's family, because the police refused to do this, had to pay out of pocket for the DNA test. And so they did, but it was worth it because, guess what? The DNA was a match to the DNA on the condom wrapper.
Em Schulz: Ooh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So now we're getting somewhere. And at this point, prosecution felt it was enough to bring this case to trial. So in April of 2010, Gary Dunn went on trial for murder. The suspicion was that Gary had been stalking Nona...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And that he was obsessed with her. So it turns out he could actually, from his apartment, see inside Nona's bedroom window.
Em Schulz: Ugh. And this is true, or is this speculation?
Christine Schiefer: No, this is true.
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he was one of the neighbors, so the police had actually interviewed him way early on just because he lived next door.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and then he's like, "No, I was shopping with my mom," and they were like, "Got it. Move on." Uh, but turns out it was a lot more sinister than they realized. Uh, his wife actually testified against him, saying that he was very violent in bed...
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: And that she considered him capable of this kind of violence. And...
Em Schulz: And that's, by the way, that's a woman right there to like put her neck out on the line...
Christine Schiefer: To say it.
Em Schulz: To say that.
Christine Schiefer: It's a scary thing to have to, to have to say.
Em Schulz: 'Cause he could, he could be right next to you...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: At, at home the next day.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely. Like you're a victim yourself, you know? And so she also claimed, the wife, that right before Nona's death, she had actually caught her husband Gary, hanging out at Nona's front door in the middle of the night.
Em Schulz: Eww! Eww! So almost like, uh, like, either like...
Christine Schiefer: Casing it.
Em Schulz: Preparing or... Yeah, like pretending or...
Christine Schiefer: Checking the lock?
Em Schulz: It's like one step away from officially breaking in. It's like, like fantasizing about breaking in or...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "How do I break in?" It's like planning to break in.
Em Schulz: Preparing. Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Which also means he probably went around to the side to check the fucking sliding door. Ugh. So sick. So Gary's public defenders claimed the state was simply wrong about the DNA on the condom wrapper. Okay. I don't know how you can really use that as an argument.
Em Schulz: Yeah, sure.
Christine Schiefer: Um, they said there's no proof he ever touched the wrapper. And they also claimed his alibi was only off because he got the dates confused. And yes, okay, the dates could be confused, but also, that doesn't mean he has an alibi now. Like now he doesn't have an... Maybe he did confuse the dates, but okay, then where were you? If you weren't there on the 15th, then where were you?
Em Schulz: What's the situation? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, tell me where you were. So the defense pointed the finger back at Kevin Jones again, the...
Em Schulz: Again?
Christine Schiefer: The boyfriend, [chuckle] yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They said there were inconsistencies in the testimonies, both by Kevin's mom and his friend Ryan, who were the ones that found the body together. So one inconsistency was at trial, Kevin's friend Ryan said he told Kevin to try to keep Nona warm,...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And he said when he first saw the crime scene, he thought Nona tripped on the lamp cord and hit her head on the table, but at some point, he also told police he tried to pull Kevin off of Nona's body while Kevin did CPR. And defense said, "Well, that doesn't make sense. Why would you tell Kevin to keep Nona warm and then try to get him away from Nona?"
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, yeah, it doesn't make sense, but maybe the paramedic said like, she's gone and he tried to pull him off, you know? I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And when Ryan was questioned about this, he said, "I'm not sure why I gave conflicting stories. I've tried to tell it the best I've remembered." And like, as we know, witness testimonies are, uh, often flawed, inherently. It's just really hard for humans to actually remember clearly how something went down. We like create a story in our minds.
Em Schulz: I also feel like that makes it a little more believable, 'cause I feel like someone who's faking it would want an airtight story.
Christine Schiefer: True. Yes, yes, that's true.
Em Schulz: But if you're saying like, "I'm trying my best and I don't know how else to explain it... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and it was probably...
Em Schulz: That feels like an honest answer.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you're in shock, like your, your adrenaline's going. I mean, of course, you don't know what to do. This kid's probably also 19. He's like, "Oh... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Keep her warm. Okay, wait, no, stop doing CPR." Like, who knows what... It was probably hectic and crazy. And apparently, um, uh, Kevin's mom gave some conflicting information as well, and they said, "How could you make that kind of mistake in your son's trial?" and she said, quote, "Because I'm not a perfect robot who knows everything all the time. I don't know how to explain this to you, sir. I was doing the best that I could under those circumstances. What I'm telling you today is the truth." Fuck yeah, mom.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So in the end, the defense unfortunately did a good job of convincing the jury that actually, Kevin might have done it after all, even though he's already been acquitted.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: So Kevin's family said it felt like now, even though Gary's on trial, it felt like Kevin's on trial all over again. So in the end, it was a hung jury, and prosecutors were so frustrated, they immediately filed for a re-trial and this time the court finally allowed the, uh, the attorneys to present information on Gary's previous felony charge from 2002...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Which in the first case had been, you know, not, not allowed to be presented as evidence. So here's what happened in 2002, and it's quite a rollercoaster.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So a woman was jogging on a popular wooded trail when Gary ambushed her from behind and started beating her over the head with a large stick.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: He struck her repeatedly until she broke free and ran away screaming for help. And when police responded, they found Gary hiding in the water near the trail. And he was put in prison for 18 months until he was paroled and moved directly into Nona's apartment complex.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And this was a few months before Nona's murder. So the woman that Gary attacked who had survived, actually was extremely brave and took the stand and told the jury that the attack she had suffered was extremely violent, uh...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Just like Nona's killing. So despite this new information about Gary's like history of violence, the defense still did an amazing job of deflecting suspicion back on Kevin. Like, they literally were like...
Em Schulz: That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: "It's the boyfriend." And the jury said in a Dateline interview that they did seriously start to feel like Kevin might be guilty, not Gary. And this poor Kevin is like, "I'm just trying to... "
Em Schulz: Dude, are you fucking kidding me twice now?
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, seriously. So once again, it was a hung jury.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: They just like...
Em Schulz: My god.
Christine Schiefer: I know. They just felt like there was not enough evidence. So a special prosecutor on the case said the jury told him, "Jack, we feel like he did it, but too many mistakes were made by law enforcement in this case. You guys would have to go beyond, beyond the reasonable doubt." So in the end, nobody was found guilty of Nona's killing.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: But...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: In December of 2018, Gary Dunn was arrested again this time on a kidnapping charge.
Em Schulz: What? Alrighty.
Christine Schiefer: Now this one is an actual rollercoaster. Here we go. A prosecutor who was involved in Nona's case said, "I would love to tell you I am surprised he was arrested again, but honestly, I am not. He is a dangerous person." So what happened was December 4th, 2018, a woman was on her lunch break sitting in a shopping center parking lot. Gary pulled up to her in his car masturbating. He started asking her sexual questions and she quickly locked her car doors.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Gary drove away and the woman reported the incident to the Russellville Police Department. Later that same day, Gary followed a woman onto Arkansas Tech University campus.
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Like Nona, this woman, Riley Wagner, was a beauty queen. She even says that she had grown up hearing about Nona's story from a young age because she was like...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: In the same pageant circles, you know what I mean? And she said, "That was something my mom always warned me about, to be extra cautious, and she always instilled in me to be aware." So when Gary started following her onto campus, they were driving, he was following so closely that she felt something was wrong, uh, beyond just like an impatient driver.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And she noticed it was a man at the wheel and she just didn't... It wasn't right. Something wasn't right. So she parked her car and Gary parked in a way that blocked her car in.
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible. So as he gets out of his car, she thought fast and locked her doors. Smart.
Em Schulz: Good job.
Christine Schiefer: He started telling her to open her window and she was like, "No." Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Yeah, which give, give me a reason. No thanks.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, give me a reason. I'll tell you if you're... He said, "I need you to get out and talk to me." [laughter]
Em Schulz: That... It's like, that's... I don't know why that's so much more sinister. It's like you're not even trying, like you just...
Christine Schiefer: You couldn't even come up with a better fucking reason?
Em Schulz: Like, that's like... It's like you're not even trying to convince me. You're just like...
Christine Schiefer: You know, like, "There's a puppy in my car and it's hurt." You're just like, "Get out of the car, I have to talk to you."
Em Schulz: Oh, I hate that.
Christine Schiefer: It's so crazy. So he tries to convince her to get out 'cause he has to talk to her for some reason. Um, and she's like, "I'm dialing 911. See ya." And...
Em Schulz: Yeah, bye.
Christine Schiefer: He jumps in his car and speeds off. So, barely 20 minutes later, Russellville police were dispatched to a local Baptist church where Gary had approached a woman in the parking lot, grabbed her and tried to force her into his car, screaming at her to get in.
Em Schulz: Three for three.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, he was clearly on a mission.
Em Schulz: All in one day?
Christine Schiefer: Well, he was clearly on a mission and the first two didn't work out. It's almost like...
Em Schulz: You would've, You would've thought... I mean, I guess if you're not in your right mind like that guy, but I feel like if you're doing something creepy, like, and you somehow got away with it, round one, be thankful you got away with it and just fucking don't try again. Like, why are you still testing the waters to make it more and more complicated for yourself?
Christine Schiefer: I know. Well, 'cause he wanted to murder someone and to get his rocks off, I guess, and he...
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: He failed the first two. So he's like, "I need to get this... I need to finish this job." so to speak. So he found a woman in a parking lot and he grabbed her and he tried to shove her into his car, screaming at her to get in, but she thankfully managed to break free and escape back into the church. So based on the descriptions of Gary and his car by all three women, police tracked him down that night and of course, it was Gary Dunn, and in his vehicle, they found an assortment of knives and ropes. Wonderful.
Em Schulz: Great. Wow, that doesn't at all make you look guilty.
Christine Schiefer: You're right. Date night, not. He was ultimately found guilty of attempted kidnapping and sentenced to 15 years in prison, but he's eligible for parole at the end of this summer, August 11th, 2023.
Em Schulz: And how old will he be when he gets out, or eligible for it?
Christine Schiefer: Um, he was 39 in 2018. What does that mean?
Em Schulz: 39 in 2018. So five years ago. So he's 43, 44.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So we've just found out he's like in his early to mid-40s, which is quite fucking young.
Em Schulz: He like, he got to do all of that and he'll just be back on the street.
Christine Schiefer: Back on it. And that's so terrifying if he, if he makes parole. I mean, let's hope not because clearly, this guy has an agenda and the agenda is to harm women and rape them. So I am like, how you could let this man out, I don't know. But again, like he was not convicted of the Nona case, so it's like, fuck, like he, he's only convicted of the attempted kidnapping, not the rape, not the murder. It's like so infuriating.
Em Schulz: The fact that he has like 50 more years to like do something he couldn't keep in control of for the last 40 years of...
Christine Schiefer: Yes! Exactly. Oh, it's...
Em Schulz: It's like, so he's definitely gonna do it again.
Christine Schiefer: It's so, so scary. This is like one that I actually think I'll keep my eye on...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just, just... I don't know. I just... I don't know why. I don't know for what. Just to warn people in Arkansas. I have no idea. So it's decided he wouldn't be tried a third time for Nona's death, um, and so for that reason, her case remains open and Russellville police welcome any new leads that the public might have. Maybe you know something about this MOFO Gary Dunn that could actually pin him down for once. I don't know. Um, but Riley Wagner, uh, who was the one that got boxed in with the car and, you know, she dealt with PTSD after this run-in with Gary, especially finding out that that was the one... That was like the boogeyman of her childhood stories. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: I can't imagine not having PTSD because you... Even... I feel like even in a town where it happened in your town, you still think, well, lightning can't strike twice.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: And it's like, "Oh, it didn't it happen to me. Great."
Christine Schiefer: And like, what are the odds, you know? And of course, they're slim, but it doesn't mean impossible. And like, imagine calling your mom and being like, "Well you know that guy you always warned me about? Thanks for warning me about him."
Em Schulz: Like it's the one, the one time a mom does not wanna be right.
Christine Schiefer: Exact... Oh, 100%, 100%. So she deals with PTSD for obvious reasons, but she has since been crowned Miss Arkansas USA. Good for her.
Em Schulz: Okay. That's what's up.
Christine Schiefer: And she shares her story so people will feel empowered to protect themselves in situations where things don't seem right. And I love that. Like if you're gonna use a plat... If you're gonna have a platform, I think it's amazing that you're using that to empower women, you know what I mean, especially if you have firsthand experience.
Em Schulz: You know what I bet she's read?
Christine Schiefer: Uh My little Gavin de Becker?
Em Schulz: The Gift of Fear.
Christine Schiefer: I bet they're friends.
Em Schulz: I hope they're friends.
Christine Schiefer: I do, too. What a power couple. Not a couple-couple, but like what power...
Em Schulz: How about...
Christine Schiefer: Power work couple, you know.
Em Schulz: You can still be a platonic power couple.
Christine Schiefer: Platonic like you and me.
Em Schulz: That's us.
Christine Schiefer: So Kevin has since made peace with Nona's mother, who for a little bit had been convinced that he had murdered her daughter. But, so they actually are, are... They've mended their fences.
Em Schulz: That's good.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And she obviously no longer believes he's guilty, which is great. Um, he's now married and he works, get this, as a criminal defense attorney.
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: And guess where he works? He practices law in his hometown of Russellville.
Em Schulz: Wow. Good for him.
Christine Schiefer: He went back to the place where everybody said, the bumper stickers, like wanted him in prison. And you know, I don't necessarily blame them. It's like the police said pretty much he did it. Of course, you're gonna be like, "Well, fuck, put him in jail then," you know? So as a certain extent, I understand that mentality, but also...
Em Schulz: But that's, that's also the lawyer you want on your side as someone who's like, "I've been there."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, "I've been there."
Em Schulz: Truly been there.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. So anyway, that's the, that's the case. Um...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: If you wanna watch the Dateline episode, it's pretty good. Um, they interview Kevin, uh, it's called Dateline Secrets Uncovered. It's uh, season seven, episode 22. Um, and it's something cheesy like, "What happened to the prom queen?" or something, something like that, some classic Dateline, uh, title. But that's the story Em, of poor Nona Dirksmeyer. It's too... It's just so sad.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's a real bummer. It really takes from the joy I was feeling earlier.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well, yep.
Em Schulz: I feel like... I really thought you were going to say uh... At the end, I thought you were gonna plot twist me and say like, "It was Kevin all long and he admitted it."
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: I was gonna be so mad.
Christine Schiefer: I felt, I felt that in my bones 'cause I, 'cause I, I was getting, I was like going along with you like, "Yeah, he's clearly innocent," then I was like, "Oh my God, Em's, Em's thinking I'm just like fucking setting them up for... "
Em Schulz: You're really like... You're really, you know, reeling me in.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I feel like I've gaslit you so many times now on the show that like, you never know what, what fucking rug I'm gonna pull out from under you. But no, this time it was all pretty, pretty straightforward. Um, you know, he was in the wrong place, wrong time. Uh, it's just, it's just tragic. So I'm glad he's like rebuilt his life though. I think that's pretty incredible. Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah, at least there's... I mean, it's not a happy ending, but there's like a productive ending.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, at least...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: He was able to move forward and, you know, I don't know, start a family of his own and be in the same town even though it kinda did him dirty back in the day.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I hope he has a real um... Keeps climbing the ladder there, keeps proving everyone wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Me, too. Me, too. Um and I'm sure he's traumatized. Think about it. Like 19 and going through that?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Yeah. He was either gonna be a lawyer or a therapist after that, I think. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you'd have to be, or at least spend a lot of time with both. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oi.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway...
Em Schulz: Well, Christine, how are you feeling after all that, physically, mentally?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, definitely drained, but like the DayQuil is still going strong, so that's good. How are you feeling?
Em Schulz: Uh, about the same. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I don't want you to be annoyed with me. I'm sorry. I know it's hard to uh, have this end the episode every week.
Em Schulz: No, no, I...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I... Maybe this is on me. Maybe I need to find a way.
Em Schulz: I don't think anything's on you.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: I think this is just... This is the, the con of having...
Christine Schiefer: It's a curse.
Em Schulz: A true crime show. It's like, how on earth do you end it? The only way you can appropriately end it is how they do like on Dateline where they just like say like some really powerful "Goodnight", you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I'll say it. Hold on. For Dateline, I'm Lester Holt. Does that work?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: That... Okay. Bye.
Christine Schiefer: Goodnight. [laughter] For Dateline, I'm Lester Holt. Goodnight.
Em Schulz: And That's Why We Drink.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Bye.
