[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hi.
Em Schulz: Hi. I, uh, welcome. Welcome to And That's Why We Drink, a true crime paranormal podcast where you listen to us tell spooky stories while we tell you about ourselves all at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, that was a fun little intro.
Em Schulz: Hmm. It'll never be said again. Probably.
Christine Schiefer: [laughs] Yeah. We've already forgotten it.
Em Schulz: Umm, what, what's cracking Christine on hump day? What's going on?
Christine Schiefer: I hate, I, I'm not... Eva, can we not record on Wednesdays anymore? I really hate that so much.
Em Schulz: I, you're not answering the question is what's interesting about that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, because I hate the question. So, umm, listen...
Em Schulz: What are you doing on this fine Wednesday, gentle lady?
Christine Schiefer: That's better. Umm, I'm in my new little setup here. I'm trying to get things more, I don't know, seamless and good looking in this studio of mine. So I have my little, uh, corner here, umm, with my little Gio shrine and my little, uh, oh, let me turn him on, my little crow with his little light bulb.
Em Schulz: Love a good crow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's hard to see though on camera 'cause it kind of...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So, sorry.
Em Schulz: She's still cute.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I love her. Umm, and then I got our books up or my books and then our book up there, so you can see, uh, a little promo, you know, if I slant the screen and then I got my little ghost pillow from Society6.
Em Schulz: Love Society6.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't it cute.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oops. There he is.
Em Schulz: I actually had to stop going on that website 'cause I knew I would, umm...
Christine Schiefer: It's hard.
Em Schulz: I can't stop buying things.
Christine Schiefer: I go on about once...
Em Schulz: I really love it.
Christine Schiefer: I go on about once a year and then I'm like done. I'm like, I can't do this anymore. Also, I have this, which my beautiful mother-in-law sent me these. I was like, oh, look at these cute pillows. And then I look closer. She made them, they have little UFO abductions on the pillow.
Em Schulz: That's amazing.
Christine Schiefer: And so I have that here.
Em Schulz: If you go first, I'll be taking that from your home. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: What?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Which is the highest compliment of something in someone's home. I would like to say it more often to people.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like.
Em Schulz: But I don't know a lot of people where I can just blurt that out. So.
Christine Schiefer: Just say that. Yeah. My, I feel like my mother-in-law will be like, "Oh, I made her that." And you'll be like, "Sorry, I call dibs."
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Well, she's not here anymore. So you made them for me. Unfortunately."
Christine Schiefer: Sorry by default. Anyway, how are you on this fine hump day?
Em Schulz: Thank You for, you know, adjusting the language to something I would feel more comfortable with. Umm, I think you need to say it the right way though.
Christine Schiefer: We're always progressive on this show. We try to be inclusive, umm, but not that inclusive. So I refuse to say it the way that you did.
Em Schulz: Eh, that feels discriminatory in some way. I think it's maybe against Wednesdays, maybe against hump days.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I can't, like I can't stop it.
Em Schulz: What's, what's, what's cracking today? Well, hmm. I'm going to a soccer game today. I don't know how I feel about it. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: [laughs] Uh, that's funny.
Em Schulz: I am being promised, uh, the souvenir shops. And...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say soccer, soccer games are fun. I mean, but I I do more, I watch more sports than you, so I don't know how that translates to your enjoyment.
Em Schulz: Well, we have a friend, uh, a mutual friend you and I...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: That is coming into town or is already in town actually. And her and her husband, who is another friend of ours, they're obsessed with the LAFC soccer team. And I...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Don't understand, but their excitement was wild enough to make me curious...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And that's how I ended up here. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's fun, you know, you're just gonna experience someone else's world for a day.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I like being in places where people are like so stoked. Their eyes are popping outta their head and that's exactly what I'm gonna witness today. So, umm, I am excited and hoping it is at least fun enough that I'm, I don't realize, oh I have several more hours here and I just have to like tough it out. So apprehensive is the mood currently, but hoping that it's gonna be a good time. So, umm, worst case scenario, they got a food cart. I'm gonna be okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I've been to an LAFC game. Umm, there's definitely plenty of food and snacks and ga... The thing about soccer games that I appreciate 'cause my brother and Blaise are going to a soccer game tonight as well, so you'll...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Are they in Los Angeles? Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: No, there are more soccer teams than just... I know you don't know much about soccer, but there are more than just the one. Umm, but I understand that's a rookie mistake to assume there's only, only one. But umm, no, they're going to one tonight as well. And the thing I do appreciate about soccer games is that the timer just goes like with a football game every fucking five seconds they stop. And I love football games, but it's like, will it be four hours? Will it be five? A soccer game's like we're here for 90 minutes, we'll add a couple of minutes, you know, stoppage time, but then you're outta here. It's like a two hour ordeal max.
Em Schulz: I like the quickness of a basketball game. I feel like sometimes maybe they're not, uh, I'm sure there's some...
Christine Schiefer: I don't really know much about how long a basketball game is.
Em Schulz: I, well, so they're 12 minute quarters. They do stop. Umm, like, so it does end up taking longer than 48 minutes, for sure. I was, it's still like a two hour experience minimum, but it's, it does feel fast compared to like...
Christine Schiefer: I like the soccer 'cause you can watch the timer go down. It doesn't matter what's happening. You're like, I know how many minutes are left and then, you know what I mean? It's like very controlled in that way.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Well, I do have crowd anxiety, so that throws me for a loop. But I'm gonna, we're gonna be brave. So that's the situation. And...
Christine Schiefer: You are so brave.
Em Schulz: It's the only time I will be complimented on my bravery and not take it as an offense because it is something I have to be brave about. So it, thank you for the acknowledgement. Umm, what else, what do you, next time I see you, we're gonna be performing in Vegas and then by the time...
Christine Schiefer: Vegas baby!
Em Schulz: And by the time this comes out...
Christine Schiefer: I am so excited!
Em Schulz: We're gonna be done with our tour.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. I can't wait for Vegas. It's gonna be a blast.
Em Schulz: Are you gonna do anything specific there, Christine? I have to bounce earlier than you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh hell yeah. Oh my God. I'm going to drag brunch, I'm going to Chippendales, I'm going to our show. I'm going to learn how to gamble. I've never gambled before. Umm, I'm going to a haunted tiki bar, the same one that you took me to on my bachelorette party trip. And they're gonna give us a tour and they have a shrunken head from Zak Bagans in there. It's gonna be a delight. I can't wait. And umm I... I just can't wait. That's the end of the sentence.
Em Schulz: How long are you gonna be there?
Christine Schiefer: Till sun... So if I get in Friday morning, I leave Sunday night.
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I know you, you have to bop early 'cause you uh, have to go to the Philippines. How kickass is that?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I have to catch a different flight that happens to be like 20 hours long.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So I am currently, I'm spending the day downloading every single thing I can think of on my...
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: Phone. So, uh, yeah, other than that, we're uh, you know, I'll only be in town for I think it feels like less than 24 hours, so, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: I know it's gonna be a quick one. I wish I could like, enjoy it 'cause there's also the Marvel Museum, which I always love going to and things like that. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I, I feel like I'm making up for some Vegas trips that either never came to fruition because of COVID or I don't know. It's our first time performing there, so I, I'm trying to, you know, make the most of it. Umm, I'm dragging my brother with me, which will be fun. Umm, but what was I gonna ask you? Oh, oh, can I make a plug real quick? I know, I don't...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Try to usually do this, but I'd, I'd like to make a quick plug. So, umm, I don't know if, if all of you or any of you, uh, listen to my other podcast, Beach Too Sandy, Water Too Wet, where we read one-stars reviews, one-star reviews in a dramatic fashion, but, uh, we are going on tour this summer and umm, you know, we're trying to figure out how to sell tickets. So if anyone's interested, we're going to eight different cities, uh, after the, And That's Why We Drink tour has stopped. So if you missed one of our shows, you can come see me read one-star reviews of your local, you know, hotspots in the area, uh, live.
Em Schulz: Christine, I don't, I don't know how you do it. I feel like such a piece of garbage next to you sometimes in the best way.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Umm, in the best way as in like, feel complimented by that because I, I, I have one podcast, no other responsibilities in my life.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you have a baby and a whole other podcast and you did this whole tour and now you're gonna go back on tour.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, it's, it's...
Em Schulz: And then we're probably gonna go back on tour...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean, we are gonna go back on tour eventually, but I don't know how close it's gonna be to your shows.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's sheer idiocy, some might say. I really, I get...
Em Schulz: Do you, do you like, do you just like being, umm, uh, like a little, like a tinge overwhelmed at all moments? Because that seems to be your vibe. You do it amazingly, but...
Christine Schiefer: I think I just don't have good boundaries and, you know...
Em Schulz: Oh, so it's unhealthy. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, absolutely unhealthy. I, no, I'm really excited for the Beach Too Sandy tour 'cause it's like just little pockets of two at a time...
Em Schulz: Mm. That's nice.
Christine Schiefer: And a lot of them are driving distance and Blaise and Leona can come, so I'll feel less bad about leaving them behind. Umm, I, so it'll be a fun, 'cause we haven't performed outside of Ohio and Chicago yet, so it'll be like a fun experimental summer tour to see how it goes. But yeah, I'm just, umm, I'm always...
Em Schulz: I thought you did it on purpose, like, you like the go go go of it all?
Christine Schiefer: No, I like to be at home and do nothing, and do a puzzle. I've been trying to do a puzzle and it's like so hard to do a puzzle when you have a baby and you're trying to like do a tour and you have to record.
Em Schulz: I would think a puzzle is something you can't even, like you're not allowed to do secretly with a baby who's like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't, no, I don't, I don't tell many people I'm doing it 'cause I feel like, oh, they're gonna be like, don't you have shit to do? And I'm like, yes.
Em Schulz: Well, my thought was like, I feel like the second I have a baby, it's kind of that like trope, which can be very untrue of like, oh, you lose a lot of freedoms, but I feel like I would definitely lose the freedom to have like a puzzle with literally a thousand tiny swallowable pieces available out on a table.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah well.
Em Schulz: Do you have to like, do you have to like hide it and like put it somewhere?
Christine Schiefer: No, we'll just do it in my office. I mean, there's plenty of wires in here.
Em Schulz: Oh, a different room.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Makes fucking sense in my mind.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, not in her nursery, on the floor.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You don't just dump the puzzle pieces into her mouth?
Christine Schiefer: Actually she does like to play with them, but you know, I keep an eye on her to make sure she doesn't eat them. Umm...
Em Schulz: Fair enough. I feel like between three animals and a baby, like you're definitely not gonna have all the pieces by the time you finish that puzzle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was not saying Juniper's the biggest threat to my puzzles.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So honestly not...
Em Schulz: What's the, what's the picture of?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's The Shining. It's the two twin girls in The Shining.
Em Schulz: Delicious.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously. What else would it be?
Em Schulz: I was thinking of like maybe with all your, like, you know, bouncing around the world, maybe it was like a peaceful breezy ocean.
Christine Schiefer: A meadow.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But apparently it's just more trouble.
Christine Schiefer: It's The Shinning, it calms me. Although I did then the first night that I started it, I did then immediately have dreams that I was in the Stanley Hotel participating in The Shining, and I was like, okay, maybe this isn't the best for my mind.
Em Schulz: Were you participating in the, your losing your sanity way or you were one of the ghosts torturing Jack Nicholson way?
Christine Schiefer: I was kind of like, just on the periphery watching everything go down.
Em Schulz: Just hanging?
Christine Schiefer: Just hanging.
Em Schulz: You were like the waiter in the bar?
Christine Schiefer: J-chilling. I was like, you know what I love when these little parties happen in his imagination.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Suddenly I can have a martini, you know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. I fully understand.
Christine Schiefer: You get it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I get it. Oh well...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I'm just thoroughly losing my mind, but thank you for checking on me. I do appreciate it. Umm, and so yeah, it will, I will say it will really heal me folks, if you go to beachtoosandy.com, buy some tickets, 'cause some of these cities are kind of random and people aren't buying as many as we'd hoped, so we don't wanna cancel 'em, so please...
Em Schulz: Well, well that happens for us too. It, we still are testing new markets and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's wild. We can never...
Em Schulz: Sometimes.
Christine Schiefer: Predict it.
Em Schulz: Sometimes there's cities that have just never fucking heard of us, and then there's cities where like, we have like a weird concentrated amount of listeners, so you just never know.
Christine Schiefer: Well, and sometimes it'll be like, oh, this place sold great last time and then like two years later it's like, nevermind, nobody likes you anymore in this town. It's like, oh cool.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and then you start like playing the mind games of like, did everyone leave to after in COVID or do...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Or is every single person outta town? It's just always, and then sometimes there's nothing outta a city and then you have to go back to the city and now all of a sudden, it's popping. So it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's hard to like really not tie your self worth to ticket sales 'cause it feels like a very direct correlation even though like, I'm sure it's, I'm sure my therapist says it's not, but, umm, but yeah, if, you know, if anyone wants to see a fun summer show, there'd be drinks, there'd be, you know, one-star reviews of places in your town. Umm, come check it out. Come check it out.
Em Schulz: [Gasp] I have a good reason why I drink.
Christine Schiefer: Tell me Em, why do you drink on this fine hump day?
Em Schulz: Ah, what, the day you say it, I'll have...
Christine Schiefer: I'm trying so hard, but I can't do it.
Em Schulz: Just, just whisper it. Just a little whisper.
Christine Schiefer: I can't, I can't, I can't.
Em Schulz: Just a like a hum, like a hump day, you know, like a hump...
Christine Schiefer: Hump day.
Em Schulz: Yay. No, you got hump day. Just make the sound just a mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Hump day.
Em Schulz: Okay. Ah...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I hate myself. I hate myself.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. I, uh, drink on this fine hump day because, uh, so obviously, you know, I have been working shifts at the bar and by bar I mean my virtual reality.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What are you talking about? You're like, "Oh, Christine, you have so much going on," I'm like, you have a night, you work the third shift, like at a Grog Shoppe, and it's not like you can just like pop in on the computer virtually. It's like, oh, you have to go to outer space.
Em Schulz: It's not like I can decide when I do and don't go to work and have my, my night shifts...
Christine Schiefer: It's like you have to leave this literal hemisphere, not even hemisphere, that's not the right word, but also this hemisphere, but also this interstellar plane...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: To go, to go do this, and like how do you do it? Is what we're all wondering.
Em Schulz: I feel seen.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I do it, umm, I do it often too. So it's, it's exhausting this...
Christine Schiefer: Gosh.
Em Schulz: Anyway, for those who are listening backwards, and this is your first time experiencing us...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They're like Em's got a bartending gig? And you would be right.
Em Schulz: I did. It's, uh, I work at the Startender Academy. Uh, it's intergalactic it is also virtual of my reality, and it's this game I'm very obsessed with, and actually apparently I got a few people into it. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I saw that.
Em Schulz: I, uh, big fan, big fan over here. I have. So first of all, I've already beaten the game and this is the first game I've ever continued to play after already winning.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Don't you love when you find one of those where you're like, I still wanna play it, even though I beat it?
Em Schulz: It's delicious. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So now I'm just like racking up like money I'm getting. So now I'm like, I, at least before I was working this, I was playing this game basically where I'm a bartender, everybody, that's what's happening here, and I was doing it originally making money from my bartending and then putting that money towards things to then like eventually win the game.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: But now that I've won, I'm just like racking up dollars I can't spend. But, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: It's too bad that galactic dollars, don't translate to American dollars because I would love for you to start picking up tabs when we go out. You know?
Em Schulz: Me too. Because if you have a two-hour shift at the bar, you make $30,000. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, but is that grog dollars? Is that interstellar dollars?
Em Schulz: I don't know what the word for is.
Christine Schiefer: What's, what's the currency exchange rate, you know, know what I mean?
Em Schulz: That, I don't know, and I might actually be much worse. I'm not too sure. But uh, it's enough to build a teleporter. So you tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Brag much. Huh?
Em Schulz: Here's the thing, here's the reason why I drink. So one of the issues I have with the game is that there's like literally hundreds, maybe thousands of different drink recipes that could show up, and you have to make all these drinks, but there's never a place to like learn how to make the drinks. You're just doing it on the fly. Like it basically you get a, it shows you like a menu of ingredients of things you need to put into the cup to...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Be able to be done with the drink. And I was like, that doesn't feel right. I wanna try to memorize some of these drinks so that way I can like be more efficient...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: On my shift, obviously, and so I, uh, went to Reddit and I'm in like a, I'm like in a VR forum.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And I was like, hey, I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: What if you were in a bartending forum and you were like, hey I'm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm going to work tonight, and I would really like to figure out how to make the, the, the, the, the Milky Way Martini.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The Milky Way Martini, which I will have to learn how to make now, but, uh, I was like, hey, I'm really bummed. I don't know how to make the, like, the recipes. Like is there a list anywhere? 'Cause there's no, there's nowhere in the game where you can like practice. So like, where do I, like, where does anyone have anything? And the creator of the game...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Commented on my post...
Christine Schiefer: Aah!
Em Schulz: And sent a Google Drive link to the top one...
Christine Schiefer: Shut the front door.
Em Schulz: To the top 100 drinks, uh, the most common drinks that you get. So it's not all of them, but it's a very good start. That's the top 100 most likely drinks I'll get in the game.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so impressed.
Em Schulz: I, me too. 'Cause I really did nothing. I expected like Joe from the basement to like, say something...
Christine Schiefer: Joe from the basement.
Em Schulz: You know, I thought someone was gonna have some like weird background. Oh, I made this random chart kind of thing, but the literal fucking creator of the game was like, oh, here you go. And just sent a link.
Christine Schiefer: Em?
Em Schulz: And that's why I drink.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so impressed with you.
Em Schulz: Me too.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, do you have anything else or should we, should we, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Like, let's, let's crack into it, but, umm, I hope it's okay if I brought my little friend today.
Em Schulz: Oh God. I feel like you don't go anywhere without your little friend anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well you know, I brought my little tiny legal vape pen, umm, because I had like a live interview with the Vegas live morning news or whatever, and I get so outrageously nervous...
Em Schulz: Me too...
Christine Schiefer: That I start like vomiting. So I, uh, so anyway, so I had this ready for, ready to go, and now that we're recording, I'm like, well, why not?
Em Schulz: I had to do the same thing. I took, I had to take a whole, well, I took half, of a Xanax, a Xanax at 7:00 in the morning. Like I was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, just because I couldn't get it together, like propranolol was not enough. I was so stressed. And like these, by the way, for anyone who is interested in this side of things, when we've had to do like news broadcast or like morning shows, like to like promote either the podcast or the book or our ticket sales.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They're literally two minute, two-minute interviews.
Christine Schiefer: No. Like, it's literally two minutes and you basically don't speak 'cause they're like talking and leading the conversation.
Em Schulz: And, and like, we'll even get briefing sheets before an interview where they'll tell you like, hey, this is what you can expect. These are the questions they're gonna ask.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And it'll tell you in there like, the duration of the interview, like how much time it's gonna take. It sometimes literally says two minutes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I needed a whole, I need half a fucking Xanax to answer questions I know they're gonna ask me?
Christine Schiefer: That's, it's so complicated because...
Em Schulz: Like, what's wrong with me?
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm the same way, and it's like, there's something about it that's so much more anxiety inducing for me than like, I, I don't know why, like poor Em has had to talk me through these so many times and be like, it's four minutes...
Em Schulz: The irony.
Christine Schiefer: It's not gonna be a thing, and then, umm, I've had to do that where I like take some anxiety medication and then it's over and then I'm like, well, now I'm all...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Blah...
Em Schulz: Me too.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I took one 10 minutes ago.
Em Schulz: Yes, yesterday I, I had, I had my two-minute interview and I was like, well, now I'm just riding Xanax for the day I guess like, like that was not worth it. Like, but then also there was no way I was gonna get through it without taking it. So I'm just like, oh man, I feel, it's why... And the questions are like, how did you meet? What is the podcast about? Like they're not...
Christine Schiefer: Literally...
Em Schulz: It's not fucking calculus.
Christine Schiefer: Like today they said, what's your favorite drink? And I said, box wine. And they were like, "There you have it folks."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you needed anti-anxiety medication for that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. So I didn't do anti, anti-anxiety medication. I'm trying to like limit the amount of that I use. Right. Umm, so I brought my little, my little friend. And he just does, uh...
Em Schulz: Does it, does it work exactly the same?
Christine Schiefer: No, certainly not.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I, but I'm ex, but I'm testing out, you know, different, different methods because obviously, umm, in a past life, as in a few years ago, I probably would've been drinking. But now I'm a parent. I can't just have a, I mean, I can, but I can barely do a puzzle. So I can't really be drinking at one in the afternoon unless like there's somebody around to, you know, so I'm trying to just find ways to cope with life. Umm, and I know a lot of people will say, why don't you just cope with life? And I'm, I say to that, life's too short to cope with life. Like, let me just bring my little vape friend, you know?
Em Schulz: Maybe I need a little vape friend. I...
Christine Schiefer: I think you do. It's way le, it's way legal where you are. Here I...
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Have to like fucking buy it on the internet from some technical hemp produced THC 8. You know, it's... Listen.
Em Schulz: Oi yoi yoi.
Christine Schiefer: Try, try, give it a try. Also, can I say one thing?
Em Schulz: Well, we've been doing, we've been saying one thing for like 22 minutes now, so yeah, go ahead. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I have a reason I drink or that you, that you drink. Uh...
Em Schulz: What? Oh, oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because I felt like being a little snoopy and so I immediately found your Reddit account. So, uh... Based on what you just told me. So just...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In case you want to, umm, I mean I haven't looked anything 'cause this's none of my business.
Em Schulz: I don't think I've posted, I've posted like two things on Duggar, the Duggar, Reddit and that's it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm not reading anything 'cause it's, it's really, it feels invasive. But I am scrolling through to see what that you did post in Bringing Up Bates, umm...
Em Schulz: Bringing Up Bates.
Christine Schiefer: So I don't know if you ever need, uh, if you, if there's anything you wanna just, 'cause on mine, I know people will find it. So I, I like hid my post activity or whatever...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So that people can't see what I've commented and posted. But I just feel like you should know that 'cause I Google, I started searching [laughter] Startender and all that. I've found it.
Em Schulz: Oh no, you're good. I just checked my profile. Now I've only, I've had, let's see, oh I've had an account for three years and I've posted three times. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Umm...
Em Schulz: Is that what it says for you?
Christine Schiefer: No, no, but I mean one, two... One, two, three, I'm not reading them. Four, five...
Em Schulz: I don't care.
Christine Schiefer: Six, seven, eight, nine, I mean nine. I don't know what they say. So I'm just giving you a heads up now before the episode airs. [laughter] Just in case you wanna privatize it otherwise...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Makes no difference to me.
Em Schulz: There's one which, if you're going to watch anything, it's, I post, it was the first time I think I had posted and it says, uh, Duggar, it was in Duggar, the DuggarsSnark. And there's a clip that I had to post because I watched it of Jim Bob literally drank vomit. His children's...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: He literally drank his children's vomit.
Christine Schiefer: Why?
Em Schulz: So I posted and I said, "Remember when Jim Bob drank vomit?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then the tag is vomit hazard and it got 166 up votes and 109 comments. Good for you.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Yeah. And then another one I posted, I mean, I, I really don't post too much in there. I'm usually a lurker, but, umm, but sometimes there's just things you gotta say. So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm reading the Bates one. It's so funny 'cause when I did, it's so funny 'cause I did the Duggars last episode as, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When this comes out, which was like two days ago for us. Uh, and you posted a whole thing about the rooms, the room layouts. Which is so funny because you said that on the episode you're like, a lot of times I think about the room layouts when I'm going to sleep.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I, and it's like such like a, a secret knowledge because they did like a, a tour at some point and then someone asked about the rooms and I was like, this is my moment. I have literally, it's probably the longest post I've ever written. And it was all this information on like, 'cause they were like, how do they fit that many kids in? And I was like, I have the answer. I know.
Christine Schiefer: You were like, finally.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway, I, I just was so excited 'cause I found the Startender's recipe list and I'm like, this is such a cool thing that you got a response from. And now of course I'm opening the drive, the Google Drive and looking at... I'm sorry, I know you know these so well right now, but like, some of these are fucking great. Uh, let's see. The Battery Acid, of course. Umm, the Cosmospolitan.
Em Schulz: There's one called a Screaming Organism.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The Wormhole. I mean these are really...
Em Schulz: Oh, there's the, there's the Wormhole, the Black Hole, the White Hole, they're all holes.
Christine Schiefer: Ah. I love the...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I love Glurp.
Em Schulz: I love Glurp. Glurp is easy.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's my fav... I just wanna have a Glurp.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, I'm so sorry that, I know that was another giant derail, but I felt like you should know that, umm, if I can find it, some, some of our sneaky listeners can find it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's fine. That's fine. I appreciate the warning. Now I've just got ghost stories for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, this is definitely shorter than last week's three-hour episode. Sorry everybody, but also not really. Umm, but to give you something a little more palatable, I'm doing kind of, umm, a vaguer topic and by that I mean, uh, I'm covering a college and so, and, and the how haunted it is.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But I'm only gonna talk about kind of the main players ghost-wise. I think colleges are interesting because there's, they're so often they're so old or they've been around at least for a few decades. Umm, the land that it was on has its own history that a lot of times we don't know too much about...
Christine Schiefer: Gloss over.
Em Schulz: There are so many people, I mean, every four years there is are like new people coming in...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And out of this place that all bring their own energies.
Christine Schiefer: It reminds me of like a hospital where it's like people are just...
Em Schulz: In and out.
Christine Schiefer: Going in and out.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And, and then there's faculty and there's the same thing there. So I, I feel like colleges are always haunted because someone's bringing something to campus...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: At all moments. And, uh, so I, I don't really wanna say like I'm covering all the ghosts. I'm sure there's gotta be like another several, I'm, I'm not totally handling, but this college does have some famous ghosts, so I'm just gonna talk about the famous ones. And this college is the University of Toronto.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Oh, Canada. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I just gasped along just to make everyone else who's listening who has some affiliation...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Feel heard. 'Cause I know that they also gasped because I'm sure a lot of people were like, oh my God, what if it's my college?
Em Schulz: It., thank you. I appreciate that. Well, especially like we all know if, uh, if I were living somewhere else during my college years, I would've applied to University of Toronto. I probably might have not gotten, but you know what? I would've tried.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure you would've.
Em Schulz: In another world, this was my dream school, so, uh, anyway, I'm very excited to talk about it. I did learn a fun fact, which I'd like to start out with, which is that University of Toronto is used as a filming location quite a lot, which makes sense. I know we do a lot of filming in Canada and Canada also...
Christine Schiefer: But isn't it usually Vancouver?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right. I guess...
Christine Schiefer: I feel it's usually Vancouver 'cause it's like LA to Vancouver.
Em Schulz: Well, I guess I've got other little hotspots that they go to, but University of...
Christine Schiefer: Good for them.
Em Schulz: University of Toronto was often used as Harvard and MIT, which is so wild that like we'd rather go to Toronto than like...
Christine Schiefer: Hilarious.
Em Schulz: Boston.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure there's a lot of like tax incentives for filming up there. I feel like that's why they do that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, uh, so University of Toronto is a filming location a lot. It's been used in Goodwill Hunting, The Incredible Hulk, Robocop, Tommy Boy, Mean Girls, Shazam, The Time Traveler's Wife, Shadow Hunters, The Shape of Water, Warehouse 13 and The Boys. Most of...
Christine Schiefer: I wish, I wish you could guess. I wish we had time for you to guess which of those I have and have not seen.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's like so obvious to me. I'm like seen, not seen, seen. Never gonna see.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I have, I've only actually seen a few of them too. I don't think I've seen...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, you mean The Boys like the show?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I fucking love that show.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: It's like one of my favorite shows of all time. It's so fucked up.
Em Schulz: I have heard that. I feel like every person who watches it tells me that it's fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: It's like deeply upsetting. Like it will like, give you serious nightmares, but it's so good.
Em Schulz: Okay, well...
Christine Schiefer: That's my, that's my great, uh, great, what do you call it? Recommendation. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That seems on par with everyone else's opinion of it. Uh, another fun fact is the University of Toronto, I as, I assume they call it UT? UT, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: UT.
Em Schulz: UT on hump day.
Christine Schiefer: See... I was gonna say, see, I'll do it for that.
Em Schulz: Uh, it ha, it was created in 1827. It was originally called Kings College. Umm, and then it is, oh, and also it's the largest university in the country with 80,000 students.
Christine Schiefer: Good job.
Em Schulz: That's a lot of people. Umm, uh, oh, it has, it's so large that it has multiple campuses and each of those have their own colleges. Umm, and it's been haunted since the 1870s, so like 40 years into the college being around.
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: And maybe before, but, uh, one of the main stories that we know of and we know about it because the website itself, like University of Toronto website has a tab that says Our Ghost Story.
Christine Schiefer: You're kidding.
Em Schulz: So, they luckily lean into it instead of deny anything, but...
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: So, I guess one of the colleges, uh, through this University is University College. And the story here, which is like the, the biggest ghost story is that one night there was a student named Allen, and Allen was walking home and he was trying to get to his dorm when he spotted a man crouching on the steps.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Crouching is never safe feeling.
Christine Schiefer: Crouching in the dark, especially.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, and late at night, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: The man was tall and burly and, uh, the man told Allen, in a Russian accent, by the way, that his name was Ivan Reznikoff.
Christine Schiefer: If he said it without a Russian accent, I'd be more concerned.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, I don't believe you. And then he'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't believe you at all. [laughter]
Em Schulz: He'd be like, my name is Ivan Reznikoff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. There I'd be like...
Em Schulz: And I'd be like, okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Good one, Ivan.
Em Schulz: So Allen, I guess, uh, you know, took pity on him and said, hey, it's really cold. Do you wanna come to my dorm? Which like...
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: I don't know, maybe in the 1870s, like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fair.
Em Schulz: It was not as widely known that you could get murdered at any moment.
Christine Schiefer: They didn't have those blue lights that you could press on campus?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, they weren't... Uh, yeah, he really just...
Christine Schiefer: It was like a gas lantern and you had to like figure out how to turn it on.
Em Schulz: Maybe taking strangers into your home was just so normal and...
Christine Schiefer: It's just normal.
Em Schulz: Makes total sense for Allen. Uh, well, so he invited him over and Ivan followed him. And once inside of, uh, Allen's dorm room, Ivan tells him, by the way, I'm dead.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: BT dubs real quick, need you to know I was killed 30 years ago.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: He tells Ivan back in 1856, he was one of the builders on campus for the first buildings of the school. Umm, and he was a stone mason. And while he was working on the construction, he became best friends with another stone mason there named Paul Diabolos, which interesting last name, Diabolos.
Christine Schiefer: Woah, creepy.
Em Schulz: Uh, even the website refers to Ivan as a huge man with fingers bigger than his carver's mallet. Wow. And, and a violent temper.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's not good combo.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. And Paul was not that. Well, eventually Ivan suspects that something is going on with Paul. He's like, uh, we're best friends, but something's up. And he is wondering, he's wondering if Paul is sleeping with his wife.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Fiance, but you know, umm, her name's Susie and Ivan was like, you, Susie and Paul are getting a little too close. And so that was already, umm, a rift in their friendship. But I think the more silly rift of them all, another thing that got under Ivan's skin was that Paul, who was one of like, of all the stone masons working on this construction, he was like the best at gargoyle work. And he used, umm, he used Ivan's face as inspiration for one of the gargoyles.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God!
Em Schulz: Which, like, I feel like that's such a compliment. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I do too. I would fucking be thrilled.
Em Schulz: If I knew how to carve gargoyle outta stone and I didn't make a Christine Gargoyle, I'd hope you'd be mad at me. And...
Christine Schiefer: I would never fucking forgive you.
Em Schulz: Well, Ivan was the opposite and was clearly insecure because he really took it to heart and got all up...
Christine Schiefer: It's unfortunate.
Em Schulz: Up in his panties about it. And so that plus him like getting kind of suspicious of Paul and Susie, he was like, this guy is getting under my skin.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So suspicious of everything, umm, Ivan follows Paul out of work and realizes that he was right, and Paul and Susie are planning to run off together.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Well, I mean, Susie scratched out the word Susie Diabolos and thought that has a much nicer ring to it than...
Em Schulz: With like a little gargoyle face next to it and a heart.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, how cute.
Em Schulz: Well, so Ivan grabs an axe.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: He chases Paul throughout campus into the university's construction yard where they've been building.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Paul ran into one of the buildings that was unfinished and Ivan is running after him swinging an axe through the building...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And Ivan eventually hits a door, umm, but he pulls it out of the door and he keeps on running after Paul. Paul...
Christine Schiefer: Now that is fucking shining.
Em Schulz: Right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And allegedly the axe mark is still there.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] That is spooky.
Em Schulz: Which like, you're already in the middle of construction. You couldn't replace the door, but, okay. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: No, but I like, I like that they like kept it, you know?
Em Schulz: Even the guy working there was like, this'll make for a wonderful true crime podcast story one day. They'll all see.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, so Paul is, you know, is freaking out. He's trying to get away that he's being chased by an axe. But what Ivan doesn't know is Paul had a dagger on him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I guess it was, he brought a dagger to an axe fight. Great. But, umm, it ended up working and he pounced on Ivan when he wasn't looking and stabbed him and threw his body down the stairs. And him and Susie helped hide Ivan's body together.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And they allegedly both left town. So Allen hears this whole story about Ivan from Ivan the ghost in his dorm room now.
Christine Schiefer: As he's sitting on his bed. Right.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine this, Allen? This is why we don't take strangers in because they're gonna...
Christine Schiefer: No, literally 'cause of you.
Em Schulz: 'Cause the first thing they're gonna tell you is they're gonna confess to a very brutal murder or they were murdered, but it was because they instigated it for sure. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And also like that, you know, he's he's good with an axe, not a good sign.
Em Schulz: He can't die again.
Christine Schiefer: He can't die again. I mean, also, do you have a roommate, Allen? Like, what's going on?
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I don't think Allen did, 'cause I'd like to think two people living there couldn't be this stupid, but okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, uh, Ivan tells his story and pretty much right away not giving Allen any room to ask questions. Ivan vanishes, which probably for the best, you don't need to answer any questions about that, or I wouldn't want to if I were in his position.
Christine Schiefer: It's for the best.
Em Schulz: Uh, and as I said, the axe mark is still seen in the door, it's said.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: Umm, Ivan's body was later found in 1890 when a fire in a campus building was destroyed and the skeleton was found on the foundation and they think it was...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] So it was gone until like nobody found it?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: And his skeleton is now said to be buried elsewhere. And I, one source said on campus.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: So, uh, if you are one of the people who goes to University of Toronto and you know just where he's buried, umm, good for you. That's a fun fact. I hope you're a tour guide for the upcoming freshman.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, and yeah, so his skeleton was, uh, was found and reburied and in theory, uh, Ivan has now moved on, but ever since students still report having experiences with Ivan.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: People have seen him sitting on the steps still in the colds or walking through older buildings.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm sad that he's stuck and crouching in the cold.
Em Schulz: Me too. But also, I wonder why that's the moment of his life he has on replay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's weird.
Em Schulz: I don't know. The people also hear the usual banging creaks and steps and they associate that with him. Umm, then again, it could, I mean, your college was built in the 1820s.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But it could be a ghost, who knows.
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna be open to the possibility.
Em Schulz: Here's my favorite thing. I fucking knew I loved Canada and I'm giving, I'm doing the full generalization of Canada on this one fact about a college in Toronto. Umm, is that the campus has leaned into this story so much that they now have a Cafe Reznikoff.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And a Diabolos coffee bar.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] I was gonna say he's so happy. But then I realized, wait, he's probably not, because, wait, is the gargoyle still there?
Em Schulz: Oh, that's a great question. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Because I wonder if Ivan, like, his, his unfinished business is to destroy that gargoyle.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I like that they have like the, like a rivalry. I like to think the cafe and the coffee bar...
Christine Schiefer: I do too.
Em Schulz: Like one's Ivans and one's Paul's.
Christine Schiefer: You pick your team. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I like, I personally hope that the Diabolos coffee bar has gargoyles. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Now that it better be part of the theme.
Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying. Well, so another story here is that a security guard in the '80s said that he witnessed spooky shit a lot, especially during renovations on campus.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, one of the main things he would see were the lights turning on and off by themselves. And sometimes it was just one light or two lights at the same time, but there was one time where like all the lights turned on at the same time and he thought there was a break-in, called the cops and they couldn't find anything.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Another thing that's happened is, locked doors unlocking themselves. One student actually tried to get through a locked door, couldn't do it, so they turned away and, and started heading away. And then the door flew open by itself even though it had just been locked.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not.
Em Schulz: And when he walked through, uh, that door afterwards, which I would've not done, I would've been like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say, walk through the... Run away from the door.
Em Schulz: I would've been like, now that it's open, it's still locked in my mind. That is not something I'm going to...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's actually double locked now.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: There's a chain on it now.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But I guess he went through that way anyway. And then all the doors after that one started flying open on their own too.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: So that's just one, again, I'm giving you tastes of ghosts. I'm sure this massive campus actually has many more ghosts. Although I feel like, before we go any further, did your school have any like famous ghosts?
Christine Schiefer: No. And you know what? It's so funny, and I've been meaning to get back to this, but after, one time you had asked me that, I think when we did, I think you did some like a haunted dorm stories recently.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Remember? Didn't you do an episode on haunted...
Em Schulz: I did. I don't remember where it was though. I think it was, let me see.
Christine Schiefer: I think it was a couple different places, but, uh, I just remember saying on that episode, like, oh no, there were no ghosts that I knew of. I never heard any ghost stories. And then a friend of mine that I haven't talked to in years who lived on my floor messaged me and was like, "Oh my God, if I knew you were also into ghosts, like you and I would've been friends."
Em Schulz: Oh, no way.
Christine Schiefer: We just like didn't know. 'Cause I lived with Allison, who was certainly not into ghosts, right? So...
Em Schulz: Still isn't, by the way. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then our other roommate who's now a doctor and very analytical, definitely did not, you know, but so yeah, I feel like, umm, maybe there were, and I just didn't know about it. But, umm, Theresa, shout out. I gotta get back to you. I know you messaged me and I never got back to you, umm...
Em Schulz: And I, by the way, it was, uh, Episode 313, it was Haunted Dorm Rooms. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yep. So, no, I mean, I think maybe there were, I just don't know about them.
Em Schulz: I feel like there's a lot of places where like, it's the music and theater...
Christine Schiefer: It seems that way.
Em Schulz: Buildings that seem to have the most haunts to them. And that was how it was at my school. My school was also, I already just told this story, but my, my college was previously a high school. Part of it was previously a high school.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes. And they had the bowling alley and all that.
Em Schulz: The bowling alley that was like, there was actually a bowling alley next to the school. And they've, they have combined them to into one building now, but, uh, it used to be a high school and the gymnasium never got torn out. And so there's, it's kind of like think back rooms for the college...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: For, that I went to. And you can still find it and there's like all these warped floors and everything, but there's said to be a little girl around. And so I, I feel like a lot of music places have that. Umm, okay, so now one of the other colleges at the University of Toronto is the Trinity College, umm, which has a Grey Lady, lady in grey of course, umm, she's seen in the chapel. And she was first seen by a minister before mass. She was seen sitting in the pews and looked really upset. So the minister tried to go over and talk to her.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And she got up and walked away before he could get to her.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's like, fuck you.
Em Schulz: She, she was like, this is not what I'm here for.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: He followed her anyway, but then realized that in like the blink of an eye, she was nowhere to be found.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, to this day, people still see her in the pews or out by the front of the Chapel. People say she still looks upset. They see that she is very pale, almost grey, hence Grey Lady.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And a, a musician or a music student. Just saying this. A music student was practicing in the Chapel one night when, uh, they saw something on the lower floor beneath them. So I guess they looked over the railing
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And they saw someone or something crawling.
Christine Schiefer: Urgh.
Em Schulz: It crawled behind a pew and it would peek its head out to look up at them. But nothing was ever found after that. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. 'Cause it's one thing if you're like, okay, I'm gonna back away slowly it didn't see me. But the fact that it knew you were watching it, forget it.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Do you think it was Ivan like crouching?
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: He's like, I'm just crouching down here. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I don't know. It makes me think too, like what... So is the, is the lady in grey, is she not a lady? Is there something darker there or something?
Christine Schiefer: Ladies can crawl.
Em Schulz: Ladies can, you're right. That was...
Christine Schiefer: I guess not if she's in a grey dress, that seems very difficult. You'd probably trip on yourself.
Em Schulz: Well, maybe it's why she looks grey. She's all dusty from just crawling around on the floor.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh she's crawling under the pews.
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah. So either the lady in grey is this creature that crawls around or they're two different entities, in which case I understand why she's always so fucking sad.
Christine Schiefer: Why she's sad. It was just about say somehow this makes sense to me.
Em Schulz: I feel like this was my, this is my only friend in eternity.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My life is so sad.
Em Schulz: There are also, uh, at Trinity College, there are some tunnels under the campus that students have used during bad weather, umm, I don't know if they still do, but at least in the past that was the case. And there's a legend that, I guess there's one part of the tunnel where the bricks are a little out of order or like look like they're kind of falling out.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Which like, feels like a construction issue that we need to handle immediately.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, but legend has it that in that one part of the tunnel, there's actually a body trapped behind it. And this man's spirit tries to grab students walking by to pull them in to be with him.
Christine Schiefer: Eww!
Em Schulz: Which like, can you imagine finally getting out of your house where every single night when you would turn the lights out, you would sprint upstairs 'cause you felt like something was behind you the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So now going to a college where you're told, hey, in this lonely tunnel that you're walking, someone's going to pull you into the big hole in the wall.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, you know, there are some people who like very quickly just walk around real quick, walk around, you know, just get past it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Everyone probably. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so apparently he tries to pull you in and, uh, trap your body in there. And if he successfully takes enough students, the thought is with every soul he steals, another brick becomes loose and one day he'll be free.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] What a spooky thought.
Em Schulz: I love that like I feel like half the ghost stories on campuses could either be true or they could have just been written by like an English major who like just like had some sort of like dark assignment they needed to write out and that was the reaction...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And they're just staring at the wall and they're like, "Well, there's a brick missing, I guess I could write about that."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like it makes things harder to believe from like oh you're just, it's literally thousands of creative minds in one space.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, exactly, exactly.
Em Schulz: Well, so there's also the spirit of the college's founder, who apparently shows up on campus around the anniversary of his death, which is November 1st and he is...
Christine Schiefer: Day after Halloween.
Em Schulz: Funny you say that, because he's still seen wearing his old fashioned robes and hat and he walks around campus and people often claim to see him on Halloween because it's the eve of his anniversary.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: And because the, the veil is already so thin, it makes sense that they would see him just as he's crossing over.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And the first is the day of the dead. So...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is when the veil is said to be the thinnest. Yeah.
Em Schulz: People also report another professor who died, haunting campus, and he is known to knock on doors and throw 'em open when, even when they're locked. So maybe he was the guy from earlier.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: His name was Professor Linden. And so because he's known to, uh, blow doors open students call him Windy Lindy.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I love that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And they also say that they really like his ghost and he's got a good attitude. So, umm, I really like Windy Lindy. I think he's cool.
Christine Schiefer: Let's get it Lindy. I love that.
Em Schulz: If I were to go to the university's campus and do a little ghost hunting, I'd hope Windy Lindy made an appearance.
Christine Schiefer: Me too. That's the ghost we'd be more comfortable seeing.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. There's a, there's also, another area of the campus is the Royal Conservatory of Music, which I could never get into to be clear.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Ro, the word royal, I'm already not accepted.
Em Schulz: The word conservatory? Forget it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they have a little Victorian ghost in a top hat, of course.
Christine Schiefer: Oh dear. Creepy.
Em Schulz: Apparently they're seen and heard running down the stairs as if they're in a rush. And another music student, I'm just saying another, because it seems to be music students who are noticing all of this. Also because I think a lot of music students stay late in practice rooms where it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's true. You're there off hours. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I know a lot of students are in their like, you know, their building's off hours, but I feel like there's something extra creepy about music students or even maybe theatre students, because the practice rooms are always soundproof. It's just you in the middle of the night in an empty building and it's silent, like there's...
Christine Schiefer: Or, or you can just hear, mmmmm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like one person like practicing, you know, down the hall.
Em Schulz: It's very spooky. Just one like high pitched soprano opera singer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like just...
Christine Schiefer: But imagine if there's, if they're like a, I don't know, the other ones, bass? What are the others, the really deep one?
Em Schulz: Oh bass, yeah. Bass.
Christine Schiefer: Or if there's someone playing the harp.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Spooky.
Em Schulz: Oh that's wild. Yeah, it could get really crazy. I feel like also no one ever took advantage of the fact that like, "Hey, it's an empty building of musical instruments. We should just like, have a jam, jam sesh." You know?
Christine Schiefer: I feel like maybe they did, but you and I were not in the conservatory.
Em Schulz: We were not invited. Yeah. I wasn't...
Christine Schiefer: Also, I don't think they just leave the instruments out. I think every person takes their instrument home with them.
Em Schulz: Maybe. I, I so I had some classes in the music building the first couple years.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously not the pianos.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, they had like rooms with like instruments like around, so I don't know if that was like... I don't know. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: If they're accessible?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe other people have already like signed off on them, but like it's theirs so you shouldn't touch it. But I was always like, man, this is like if I wanted to just, our college had a really like weirdly liberal honor code where like it was just expected that you never, nothing ever got stolen, ever. You could...
Christine Schiefer: Must be nice.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I mean like there were many times, I actually like in hindsight, I'm realizing like one, how lucky I am, but also like, probably it has to say something for the college. Like everyone was on board with this honor code thing like there were times where I would just leave my laptop for hours in a building I was not at. And just like wide open.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I, yeah. And just no one would take it ever. It was just understood that you didn't...
Christine Schiefer: That is insane to me.
Em Schulz: It was, in, in hindsight, I'm like, why was I so reckless? But also thinking about it then I felt like so safe to do it. It was like never...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: It was very odd. But so maybe that was, that's the case with some music places where you just don't touch people's music.
Christine Schiefer: I guess so.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I feel like music places are always super spooky. I just feel it's too quiet. It's like already set the scene for something eerie.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I agree.
Em Schulz: So at the Royal Conservatory of Music, there was one music student who was there in a practice room alone at night, and he heard footsteps coming towards his room. So I guess his...
Christine Schiefer: Oh-oh.
Em Schulz: Practice room was not particularly soundproof, but okay. But heard footsteps walking towards him, and then he saw a man look through the window in a top hat.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Euughh
Em Schulz: And when the student tried to open the door for him to let him in, nobody was there to be found.
Christine Schiefer: What, to let him in?
Em Schulz: I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Don't let him in.
Em Schulz: A different time, a custodian saw the same man in the empty music hall and then felt someone tap his shoulder. So when he looked away and then looked back, the top hat man was gone.
Christine Schiefer: But was anyone actually tapping his shoulder?
Em Schulz: Mm-mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. So it was like a double prank.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was like, "Stop looking at me, I'll distract you."
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: Some students also hear and see practice room doorknobs turning on their own...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: When nobody is on the other side of the door. And they've even seen doors shaking violently. Like someone is trying to shove their way in even though the door is unlocked. So it's like they...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So it's like purely to scare you or they just don't know how doors work.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I wish it were the second one. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I know. And, uh, I mean there, oh, there's also in this building. Say it with me, a lady in red.
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: She's always there. I, one day we're gonna figure out it's the same goddamn lady and she is just...
Christine Schiefer: She is jet setting.
Em Schulz: She's like on another, literally in on another realm. She is globe trotting like I've never seen.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, but don't get it twisted, I am not the one crawling on the dusty ass floors. [laughter] That is the Grey Lady. And she gets to keep that title.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. Please don't, don't put, don't sully my name.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: So she's seen walking the halls. Nobody knows her story, but they all say that she's a lady in red.
Christine Schiefer: Eek!
Em Schulz: Umm, and now we're going to go to the Regis College of University of Toronto. And there, the home of this college is a building called the Christie Mansion. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Christie or Christine?
Em Schulz: Christie.
Christine Schiefer: Dammit.
Em Schulz: I know. Sorry. We can throw an N in there. I don't care. He's...
Christine Schiefer: Christine Mansion.
Em Schulz: Oh, I'd love... That's your house actually.
Christine Schiefer: Christine Chapel. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The Pristine Christine Chapel.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: The Pristine Sistine Christine Chapel. No.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's Why we say Christine Chapel 'cause it rhymes with Sistine Chapel.
Em Schulz: I Know. I'm just trying to throw as many words in as I can, that rhyme.
Christine Schiefer: No, let's just leave it at Christine Chapel, 'cause I want it to be clear that this place...
Em Schulz: Is yours and yours only.
Christine Schiefer: Is only mine. It is also pristine 'cause I don't need anything crawling through the dirt on the floor under the pews.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: There's also no pews.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: That, that's all you need to know.
Em Schulz: Okay, that's fine. Uh, we'll have to shop that later. If only, you know, one day...
Christine Schiefer: I think, I don't know what there is to shop. I feel like I just laid out the exact storyline for you.
Em Schulz: Just, just an empty church. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I wish you would just stop trying to shop my perfect creation.
Em Schulz: If I still had all of like RJ's streaming stuff in here and I could like, we could do like a Sims Day.
Christine Schiefer: A sims build.
Em Schulz: It'd be fun to create a, a pristine Christine Chapel.
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't that be fun? Let's do it.
Em Schulz: Well, we'll figure it out eventually.
Christine Schiefer: I'll figure out how to buy a computer. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter] So...
Christine Schiefer: That'll fix it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So the Christie Mansion is owned by Robert Christie and he lived there with his wife and three kids and it's this massive building. But he had a mistress.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And he got a little obsessed with her. So he locked her in the false wall of his home.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] What? I'm like, oh, that happened. Oh, that doesn't happen. Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: Eventually he got tired of her or something broke up or something happened. But he kept her locked away 'cause he didn't wanna get found out.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: And ultimately she hanged herself with her blanket.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, and then Robert had to sneak her body out without his wife and kids knowing or society.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And the secret room was later found out when the buildings later became part of the college as a dorm.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, yeah, you can have this.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Take it away also. Don't worry about that one room at all.
Christine Schiefer: Also wait till I'm dead 'cause I really don't wanna go to jail.
Em Schulz: Yeah, right. So the residents ended up moving into this building and they realized that the door to that room would swing open and closed all night long, but you can never open it yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Eww. That's like those porthole windows at the Queen Mary where they're so heavy...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But then they just swing by themselves.
Em Schulz: Ooh. Yeah. It was, it's like as if the door is locked and you couldn't get in even if the door was unlocked. And I have had experiences like that myself and they're so fucking creepy. And had I known I was in a haunted location, umm, I would have left. [laughter] But I just thought, I just thought, oh, the door must really be stuck. There must be a draft or the, the wood on the door must have warped or something. But I mean, you would get trapped, trapped in this room. And I, there's no other way to put it. It makes no sense. But it was like the door was cemented to the wall. Even though the doorknob is being, is turnable like you, like it doesn't feel like the, the doorknob itself was locked at all.
Christine Schiefer: Where, where was that?
Em Schulz: Uh...
Christine Schiefer: That you had that?
Em Schulz: It's called the Homestead. It's like, uh, like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, you've talked about that on the show, I think.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There, there was one room, that was one of the creepier nights the entire time I was there, really weird stuff was happening. But...
Christine Schiefer: I think that was an early episode with, uh, Deirdre. You guys told that story.
Em Schulz: She was there when, day...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: When that happened. But I mean, anytime one of us went to the bathroom, 'cause it was the bathroom door. Anytime one of us went to the bathroom, we had to like buddy system and like someone had to like stand next to the door because anytime the door got closed it was...
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: There was no getting out. There was multiple people. We were trying to throw our bodies into the door to get it open, but then outta nowhere you can just open the door, outta fucking nowhere.
Christine Schiefer: Just like, oh, what's your problem?
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was like, I felt so gaslighty. I was like...
Christine Schiefer: It feels like it's mocking you. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was like, what the fuck is going on? And so either it was the easiest door in the world to open or you might as well have been running into a brick wall.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and so I guess that's the situation that happens here at the Christie Mansion where students will like literally get locked in there by accident and they'll have to like bang on the doors and bang on the walls at night for someone to open the door to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: To let them out. But then there's other times where it's like it's mocking them because they can't get out, but the person on the other side of the door can just open the door like it's not a problem.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh, that's very rude. And very gaslighty.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There's also, I like this one. This is, umm, the Massey College. Uh, there's a very happy ghost there named Robert Davies, who was the first master of the college. And he would host Christmas parties every year, which he called Gaudy Night.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, I like it.
Em Schulz: And I would love to attend a Gaudy Night. And if the vibe is like we're dressing camp, like very like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Dolly, Dolly Parton, I would lose my fucking mind. That's sounds so amazing.
Christine Schiefer: I'm calling it a Naughty Gaudy Night. You know what I'm saying?
Em Schulz: Ah, oh my gosh. Okay then hang on. Maybe we should do that for Christmas. We'll have a Naughty Gaudy.
Christine Schiefer: This I'm willing to shop. You leave my Sistine Chapel out of it, I will host it if you want. I will, I will offer the Sistine Chapel as the, the you know, home of the party, but...
Em Schulz: Well, you know, I, I always told you that my old boss, anytime she ate a snack and she felt guilty about it, you know what she'd always say?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: What would she always say?
Christine Schiefer: She would say, I'm being so naughty.
Em Schulz: Yeah!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She would, I would, I would come into, I would come into work and she'd have like a bacon, egg and cheese, she'd be like, don't tell anyone. I'm being so naughty today.
Christine Schiefer: I'm being so naughty today. You and I still say that like, together and separately. Like, I still say that to people and I'm like, that's, oh, that's based on Em's former coworker that I never met.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It was my boss too, and so every...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Every time I saw her, she'd be like, what do you, what do you, she was food obsessed. I loved her, and she's like, what are you eating this weekend? Are you gonna get so naughty? Are you gonna be naughty?
Christine Schiefer: What are you eating this weekend?
Em Schulz: Sometimes you just gotta be naughty.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta.
Em Schulz: Anyway, at our Naughty Gaudy Party, we're, that's gonna be the tagline. We're being so naughty tonight.
Christine Schiefer: So naughty. Time to be naughty. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so at, uh...
Christine Schiefer: And it just means we're eating a lot of good food. That's all it means.
Em Schulz: Does it? Okay. [laughter] So at Massey College, the main ghost there, when Rob was Robert Davies and when he lived there, or when he was part of Massey College, he would host Gaudy Night for Christmas.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: While he was there, this guy would be right in our wheelhouse, Christine. He would make up ghost stories to entertain the guests, and he even published a book about the ghost stories he told at Gaudy Night called High Spirits. High Spirits. I love that.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] I love this guy.
Em Schulz: He also told his coworkers, "Hey, one day when I die, I'm going to actively try to become a ghost on campus."
Christine Schiefer: Come on.
Em Schulz: And now in Massey College, where he used to have Gaudy night objects move and disappear by themselves, figures show up in the hall, people hear footsteps and banging, and a male figure shows up in people's graduation pictures.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yes.
Em Schulz: He's being so naughty.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: [Giggles] He is, and I have never felt more like in tune with a ghost, ever.
Em Schulz: Ever, ever. I love him. So that's Robert Davies. If I'm gonna be haunted by anyone, I want it to be him. Umm, and then there's the Wallberg Building. These are just some quick ones, but in the Wallberg Building, engineering students have had a spirit show up and help them with their projects when they are...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that, that's nice.
Em Schulz: It sounds real fucking nice, especially engineering, you need all the help you can get, like...
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine they're trying to help, but they like press the wrong thing and the whole thing crumbles to the ground and you're like, I swear it was a ghost.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also like what if it's just like, what if that ghost wasn't an engineering student?
Christine Schiefer: Was a music major? Like what...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What do they know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. What if it's just like a random, a random ghost that didn't even die on campus and was never enrolled there? It's just a random person...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Who's like, you should do that and then it doesn't work.
Christine Schiefer: Oops. The whole bridge collapses.
Em Schulz: Well, apparently this one actually will tell you if there's like broken wires or something on your engineering projects. Apparently there was one, uh, team that was working on a lab project with circuits and this ghost came up and told them what was wrong with the project, and when they fixed it, it worked, and there was no one there to thank afterwards.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man.
Em Schulz: There's also the McLaughlin Planetarium.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Which, uh, I hope I said that right. Looks like McLaughlin to me. Umm, there are, there's a ghost of a little girl named Celeste, and she's been haunting the building ever since the '60s because when she was a little kid, she was said to just love the planetarium shows and just like she watch.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. And with a name like Celeste...
Em Schulz: I know. I wonder if like other kids though just kind of came up with the, with that name.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I wonder if that was made afterward because it's a planetarium. But...
Em Schulz: I know. I know.
Christine Schiefer: It's fitting.
Em Schulz: I hope it's her real name that's so written in the stars.
Christine Schiefer: Me too, I like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, I see what you did there.
Em Schulz: Uh, sadly the planetarium is said to be demolished soon and people are...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Worried for Celeste, but, umm, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I hope she's gonna be okay.
Em Schulz: I hope so. There's also, uh, the McDonald, oh God. McDonald Mowat house. M-O-W-A-T. Mowat? Mowat.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, and allegedly the, Canada's first Prime Minister haunts this place because, uh, his name is Sir John McDonalds and he once lived there and now it's part of University of Toronto, and people still see him rushing around, like he's still working, which again...
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: We've talked about it before, but can you imagine still working in eternity? Like you just haven't earned some...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not...
Em Schulz: Fucking relaxation.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not, and I don't buy it when people say he just loved his job. I'm like, nobody loves their job that much.
Em Schulz: I definitely love my job enough to watch you continue without me, but I'm done. I'm out and let's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, but like let me rest.
Em Schulz: Yes. Like please. Uh, yeah, you can talk to me through a Ouija board or something when I'm gone, but, other than that, I'm not coming back to keep hosting with you, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Hell, no.
Em Schulz: Uh, so there's also the Soldier's Memorial Tower, which is a memorial, umm, on campus to, uh, Canadian World War I soldiers, and in the 1930s, there was a worker on the top of this tower who lost his footing and dropped to his death.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh.
Em Schulz: This is crazy. People still see him repeating the fall.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, that's traumatizing.
Em Schulz: Even more traumatizing, he apparently looks alive and real, and so does the impact of his fall apparent...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh no.
Em Schulz: Apparently, it looks and sounds very real and then his body vanishes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Which, like, can you imagine the trauma of like thinking you just saw all of that and now there's no one to confirm it. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. And then you don't get validated at all. Uff.
Em Schulz: Umm, other than that, they, uh, I'll say there's apparently, I don't know if there's like University of Toronto ghost tours, but there's apparently a ghost walking map.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: I didn't find this on, I found this as like a, it was written down, but I, I didn't see the actual map itself. I'd like to find one of those. And, I'll end on this, the University of Toronto and local ghost organizations remind people to be safe because there have been people who have done some risky things to try to find ghosts, including one couple recently who climbed onto the roof of the Daniels Building and the woman fell to her death.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh.
Em Schulz: Ironic, ironically, they were, umm, going up there and investigating or exploring, because in that building in 2001, there was an unsolved murder and they were, I guess, true crime fans...
Christine Schiefer: Shit.
Em Schulz: So they were looking around and didn't find anything, but, uh, she ended up dying herself. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's horrible.
Em Schulz: Umm, great way to end this. That is the ghost of University of Toronto.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Now, you know how I feel trying to end on a...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know how you do it.
Christine Schiefer: A messy one.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I just ripped it off like a Band-Aid, so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's what you gotta do.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, wow Em, what a story. What a story.
Em Schulz: Thank you. And I, again, I know there are several more and I'm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sure.
Em Schulz: I'm sure if there are students there who listen to this, you are, umm, I hope I did some justice. I'm sure there's big chunks that I missed, but that's, those are the leading ones according to Google.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's the nature of doing a limited time crunch show, umm, where we don't have, you know...
Em Schulz: Three hours, like we did.
Christine Schiefer: Hours and hours and hours. Yeah. We do sometimes have three hours. But, uh, this leaves room for people to send in their stories for a listener's episode, maybe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's great. That's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: You know? If you have some, some more dorm stories. Okay. Em, I have a tale for you. This is the story of the Porco Family.
Em Schulz: Porco Family.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Now, it's a weird name, I know. And it's spelled, P-O-R-C-O.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So it doesn't look nearly as weird as it sounds in my opinion.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It just has a ring to it, because the dad of the family, his name is Peter Porco, which sounds like a cartoon character to me.
Em Schulz: Totally. And he's a pig.
Christine Schiefer: It's Porky Pig, Peter Porco. Like, it's hard to not equate those in my mind.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I just wanted to get that out of the way so that...
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: We can get to the story, but I wanted everyone to know I also had that thought. Uh, so this shows that, uh, initially alerted me to this case were, uh, it was initially an episode on 48 Hours Mystery on CBS, and then I also found a Forensic Files episode about this.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, I'm gonna tell you about the Porco Family, uh, first off, just who is involved. There's Peter Porco, who is a 52-year-old lawyer for a prominent judge, and his wife Joan Porco, who is a children's speech pathologist at a local school district. Uh, they live in, or they lived in Bethlehem, New York and had two grown sons who did not live with them. So they had Jonathan Porco, who's the oldest, eldest son. He was a 23-year-old naval officer stationed in South Carolina. And then he had one younger brother named Chris, Christopher Porco, a 21-year-old student at the University of Rochester, which was a couple of hours away from, from his family's home.
Em Schulz: Cool. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, late November of 2004, Peter, the lawyer, he, uh, did not arrive for work one morning. And his co-workers knew something was wrong pretty immediately because he had never missed work without letting them know. They're calling, nobody's answering. So they notify the police.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When detectives arrive at the Porco's residence, they find right inside the front door, well, Peter Porco at the bottom of the stairs, he is drenched in blood...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And it appears he had died hours before, after being attacked repeatedly with an axe.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow. We both did axes.
Christine Schiefer: I had that same thought and then I was like, "Oh, The Shining too." I feel like this is a weirdly axe-heavy episode, which I don't love.
Em Schulz: Geez. If you walk by an axe later, just dodge it. Just don't... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: This episode is sponsored by AXE Men's Body Spray.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding. Uh...
Em Schulz: Just, just say an axe actually, who paid us to talk about them.
Christine Schiefer: Just say... Oh, I meant axe. Yeah. I meant, axes in general. So they know that this was an axe that caused his death, because the axe was still there. So they see a bloody axe at the scene. The crime scene is a huge mess there, as you can imagine, there's blood everywhere, but oddly, there were also trails of blood through the house.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that's because as it turns out, Peter Porco had not died right away after being struck over and over and over again.
Em Schulz: Oh, is this the guy with the head injury and he is walking around?
Christine Schiefer: He's walking around.
Em Schulz: And he didn't remember. He had like, it was like a head, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, You...
Em Schulz: Oh, I'm so glad you're covering this 'cause I've always wondered...
Christine Schiefer: Fucking nailed it. You fucking nailed it.
Em Schulz: I always wondered. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So at some point, after the killer had already fled, I mean assuming this man was dead, Peter had regained consciousness and started to go about his normal routine.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he was trailing blood through the house, which is how they were able to figure out what he was doing. He used the master bathroom, then he went downstairs to make breakfast and unload the dishwasher.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: And he's just like profusely bleeding from his head wounds.
Em Schulz: Like he just must have had, like the axe must have hit him in the right spot in the brain where he just didn't feel pain or didn't remember or something?
Christine Schiefer: You could work at Forensic Files, I think. 'Cause you're...
Em Schulz: Oh, please stop with that.
Christine Schiefer: You're onto it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I'm like, I mean, 'cause usually my thought would be, did you have a head injury? And like, very much, yes, this man had a head injury, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like honestly, the only thing we for sure know at this point.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so there are two theories on this. And I wanna say 48 Hours Mystery, I don't know if it was, uh, filmed and produced like earlier than the Forensic Files, but there are some discrepancies that almost seem to me anyway, as if Forensic Files, once their episode aired, they had gathered more information.
Em Schulz: Okay, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: So it's, it's almost like there were some developments in the Forensic Files episode that were not in the other one. So, I'm gonna kind of waffle a little between them. Umm, but essentially, what happened is according to the 48 Hours Mystery, they believed he was in such profound shock that he had not processed what had happened and there are cases of this. Umm, either that, or as you suggested, the part of the brain that had remained intact and not injured was the part that's responsible for like everyday mundane tasks, repetitive behaviors that you do over and over again. Umm, and according to Forensic Files that was the reason that he was doing this. So it was, you know, either his mental processing had been severely damaged or, you know, he was just in total shock.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: At one point, he even walked outside to grab the newspaper.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Which, like can you imagine being his neighbor and like accidentally seeing that?
Christine Schiefer: That's what I thought and I'm like, what are, like nobody happened to glance out. Like...
Em Schulz: And for them to be able to know that means there was blood trailing his front yard and down the driveway and the mailbox.
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Correct. Correct.
Em Schulz: Oy.
Christine Schiefer: So, they knew that, as you said, there was a trail of blood leading out the front fucking door, uh, and according to Forensic Files, and this is where one of these kind of details is presented differently. So I don't know which one exactly it is, but according to Forensic Files, he had walked out to get the paper but accidentally let the door lock behind him.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine with this head injury and you're locked out of your house.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. It looks like, like a jump scare attraction at, at a, at a...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Haunted Halloween thing of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: A bloody man trying to break into a house.
Christine Schiefer: A hundred percent. And like...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: A trail of blood leading away. So what they think happened is he used the spare key under the potted plant to reenter the house.
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: Like he had enough wherewithal to know where the spare key was, after which he at some point collapsed at the base of the stairs and ultimately died of blood loss.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Which is just a wild... It's all just a wild thought. But, I will say, the thing that differs is that some the other docus, documentary and some other sources believe perhaps the spare key was used by the killer to get into the house.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: They know the spare key was used. They don't know if it was the killer who used it or if it was Peter Porco after going to get the newspaper. So, but somebody used the spare key. So investigators ultimately determined when like looking at this crime scene that someone had entered the Porco residence sometime after 2:00 AM, disabled the alarm system, went into the garage, found an axe that belonged to the family, went upstairs to the master bedroom where Joan and Peter Porco were sleeping, and attacked with the axe, striking them in the face and head dozens of times.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: The killer then left the axe at the foot of the bed, headed outside, cut the house's phone lines, smashed the security system panel, and fled into the night.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So now we're, we're...
Em Schulz: You think he would do those two things first.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, yep. You do. You would.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: All right. And you also wouldn't leave the murder weapon at the scene of the crime, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: You'd also think so. Yep. But I guess what do you do? Take it with you and then have it in your car, you know, then leave blood everywhere? I don't know. So, we're back to the crime scene now. And a Bethlehem Police crime scene detective named Christopher Bowdish was downstairs, you know, where Peter's body had been found, while his officers were going through the house to clear it to make sure that the perpetrator wasn't still in the home. And that's when he hears from upstairs one of his officers call out to him. They had found Joan in her bed having been attacked by the axe, and she was still alive.
Em Schulz: [Gasp] Oh my God. Which means...
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: She was hurt and probably like thinking that she wasn't going to be alive or maybe she, she was probably freaking out.
Christine Schiefer: And then she hears the dishwasher running downstairs.
Em Schulz: Yeah!
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: She was hearing her husband walk around like nothing was going on. I wonder, like, could she, was she not in a...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I'll tell you exactly what you're wondering.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause, 'cause that is part of the detail. So did... And if I don't tell you what you were wondering, let me know. But I think I'm gonna...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Cover that in a moment. So Detective Bowdish, of course, rushed into the master bedroom. He finds Joan Porco laying crosswise across the bed and she is able to gesture to him. Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so the axe wounds on her face were so bad that she couldn't speak.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I was... That is what I was gonna ask. Like, why didn't she...
Christine Schiefer: Her face had been completely destroyed by the axe wounds.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And so, you know, obviously, this is an extreme crisis. Umm, but as they were waiting on the medics to remove her from the home and take her to the hospital, and knowing she could die at any minute, Detective Bowdish was like, "I got to think fast." So he decided to quickly ask her a few questions to try to get as much information as possible.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So when Joan was asked whether she could hear him, she nodded yes. So then he knows she can at least acknowledge his questions. In a strange coincidence, there's a little side note, Bowdish had actually met the couple two years earlier on like a total... A different, a totally different situation. They had actually reported a theft of their two laptops, which I guess they had left... But they had not left in one of Em's...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: College buildings, 'cause apparently it would have been safe there.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It would, anything's safe there. Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But apparently their laptops had been stolen two years prior and he was the detective on that case. So he had actually interviewed with them and met them. Umm, and he because of that knew the family. And so he knew that she and Peter also had two sons.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So today, at the crime scene, Bowdish realizes like he's putting the pieces together. He realized like the spare key is still in the door, whether that was Peter or the killer, we do not know. Nothing in the house had been taken. And he's starting to think, well, this is probably an inside job. So he asks Joan, "Do you know the killer?" And she nods, yes.
Em Schulz: Oh, God.
Christine Schiefer: He asks, "Was it a family member?" She nods, yes, again. When asked, "Did Jonathan do this to you?" Her eldest son. She shakes her head, no. When asked, "Did Christopher do this to you?" She nods, yes.
Em Schulz: [Gasp] Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: And that is when paramedics rush her to the hospital, begin emergency procedures. And that is when authorities begin looking for Christopher, the youngest son.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: The weird part is Chris is 200 miles away in his dorm at the University of Rochester.
Em Schulz: That guy sped to school that day. Oh my God.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So when he hears about the attack, he rushes back home to see his mother who's being taken in for emergency surgery. And meanwhile he's taken to the police station where he is questioned for six hours. And of course now police have their eye on him for obvious reasons. Chris claims, however, that he was in the lounge of his dorm building the whole night. He said he was, he was, had fallen asleep on the couch of the dorm and that he never left campus that night.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, so that's his claim. But detectives head down there to question, uh, the rest of the students who live in the building. And unfortunately for Chris, a group of his own fraternity brothers had stayed up till 3:30 in the morning hanging out in the lounge that night. And they told police that no, Chris had not been in there with them for a single minute.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Oh wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they talked about this room as just like a normal dorm room floor, common area, like two sofas and a microwave. Like it wasn't...
Em Schulz: Like you're not, you're not missing each other. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're not hiding. Right. Exactly. So they were like, sorry, but he was not here. So detectives searched his room and they searched his car, which was a bright yellow Jeep Wrangler, but they did not find anything, not even a spot of blood. So they're a little conflicted because, you know, they're convinced he had something to do with it, but they're sort of at a standstill, umm, especially because they check his E-ZPass records and he had not gone through any tolls that night.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And there were tolls on the way back to his family's house, but then they get ahold of the university's surveillance cameras and what do they see, but a bright yellow Jeep leaving the school parking lot at 10:30 PM. At 10:36, that same yellow Jeep is spotted by another camera heading east at 10:45. A New York toll collector says he remembers a bright yellow Jeep with big tires going through his lane. And at 1:51 AM, another toll collector says she sees a yellow Jeep going through her toll lane in Albany, which is an exit only nine miles away from the Porco house. So now their theory is, well, if this is Chris Porco's car, they believe that he drove from the university to his parents' house, but paid cash for the tolls.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And hid his E-ZPass, which actually they verified because they found the E-ZPass hidden in the backseat underneath.
Em Schulz: Why? That's okay. Well...
Christine Schiefer: In the seat.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And apparent...
Em Schulz: A bit of a smoking gun there as far as I'm concerned.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and apparently that will prevent it from being picked up by E-ZPass, you know, signaling, as far as I know as far as they said on the show.
Em Schulz: Can you just... Can you just take it out of your car if you wanted to so badly.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I was thinking, but...
Em Schulz: Okay, whatever.
Christine Schiefer: What do I know? What do I know?
Em Schulz: What do I know, I'm not an axe murderer, but...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry I laughed. But yeah. Wow. Uh, thank God. So another thing they're not sure about right away is, is this actually his car? Umm, and you know, it's a yellow Jeep. You'd think if you were an axe murderer, which I know you're not. Thank you for clarifying. That you would maybe get like a Honda Civic or something.
Em Schulz: Something like, whatever the most basic car in the whole wide world is. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like literally pretty sure that's a Honda Civic 'cause I had one once and I remember people saying it's like the most broken in to car because it's just like the most ubiquitous car. But anyway, so he had a yellow Jeep, but of course that doesn't necessarily prove that it was him. So they started looking at all the camera footage and they realized that on the passenger side, there was this like really big dirt stain that when they, uh, compared pictures of Chris' car, the dirt stains completely matched. There was also a ripped parking sticker on the window that completely matched and a bumper sticker. And in case you're wondering, the bumper sticker said Dubya 2004.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So this was his car that was driving...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Through these tolls. However, he claimed he was just moving his car off campus because he wasn't allowed to park there overnight.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So I don't know where he was moving it to...
Em Schulz: Which... Fine. I did that a million times in college.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So that's his claim. So like I said, they can't make out the license plate, but the decals on the back of the Jeep match the surveillance video. The mud stains all match. And so on November 4th, 2005, almost a year after the attack, Christopher Porco is charged with the murder of his father and the attempted murder of his mother. And like I said, when questioned, he's claiming that he was just moving his car off campus. But then prosecutors are able to find a witness. And this witness is named Marshall Gokey. And this Marshall Gokey is a neighbor of the Porco family.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I guess he did not see Mr. Porco getting the newspaper, but he did see, at 4:00 AM, a yellow Jeep parked in the Porco's driveway.
Em Schulz: Well, there you have it, my friends.
Christine Schiefer: Right? And he said there is zero doubt in my mind that was Chris' Jeep because he knows Chris' Jeep. He's like, they live next door. I know what their cars look like. I saw their son's Jeep.
Em Schulz: I know, I know we already talked about it, but like of all of the cars you like why a yellow Jeep? Like it was like, it couldn't have been more obvious, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I, I feel like of all things like it's gonna stand out especially if you park it in the driveway of your parents' house.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Rough.
Christine Schiefer: So the guy heading to work at 4:00 AM is like, oh, Chris must be over. And then, you know, has to tell police, Hey, guess what? I saw that car in the driveway.
Em Schulz: Yeah. As I had the thought. Chris must be over and then realized, oh, Chris must be over.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he was. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So things are finally looking pretty good for the prosecution in their case. Umm, they are building this case and then their star witness, Joan Porco miraculously wakes up from her coma. Unexpectedly, they think she's not gonna survive. She wakes up.
Em Schulz: v Is she still alive?
Christine Schiefer: She's still alive.
Em Schulz: [Gasp] Oh, wow. Wow. I didn't see that coming. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So she is still alive. And so they're, you know, they're thankful because this is their star witness. They go to check on her to question her. And Joan says, "No. Christopher was not our attacker. My son Christopher would never do something like this."
Em Schulz: Girl, what changed?
Christine Schiefer: So now, they're thinking, "Oh, shit. This was our smoking gun, so to speak." This was the person who was gonna say, "I see who tried to kill me in this courtroom, and it's my son."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And now she's saying, "Christopher would never do something like that."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So all we know is that Joan has no recollection of the attack. She has no recollection of indicating to police with head nods that her son had anything to do with it. So she is in full support of her son and says, "I cannot believe you would even take that... "
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: "Traumatic instance as, you know, face... "
Em Schulz: I mean.
Christine Schiefer: "At face value."
Em Schulz: I mean, I could, how, how many times have people had to testify against someone who tried to kill them and like, you know, they're terrified. So I don't blame her if she thinks like he could, he could get me then he can get me now.
Christine Schiefer: I don't even think it's that. I think it's, it's her son.
Em Schulz: Oh, like maternal instincts kicked of like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think she wants to blame her... Or even wants to believe that her son could do this.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: That's my take on it. Because... I think she's probably just trying to... Defense mechanism, like, just be like, "No, of course, it wasn't my son."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And totally block it out. I, I don't know. And obviously, I'm no expert. But it was a very, very sudden turnaround that she said, "Absolutely not. He would never do this. "
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: "It wasn't my son. I love him dearly." Yada, yada.
Em Schulz: A mother's love is crazy. Like...
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: It's so fucking powerful.
Christine Schiefer: It is. It is. And like, to be fair, if she doesn't remember it...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's true.
Christine Schiefer: I can see her saying like, "No, I must have just been in a, in a daze and not known what you were asking me." Which is fair too. I mean, they had a witness or not a witness, they had, umm, I guess it was an expert witness, who said, "You know, with a traumatic brain injury like she had, you can't expect her to be, you know, clear and aware of what's going on in a conversation." And so to be fair like I can totally understand that as well. Like, obviously, it's hard to say someone who just got their head smashed in with an axe...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Is reliable, you know, with head nods. I can see why that would be questionable also. So a month after Chris is first charged, he is out on bail, family and friends rally to support him, insisting that he's innocent. He could never do such a thing, and so his defense team starts to point out some new evidence found at the crime scene. For example, they found a fingerprint on the phone box, which is only inches from the cut phone cord, and Chris' family and friends believe that the fingerprint belongs to the killer. Uh, and so... And it doesn't belong to Chris. So, you know, that's a mystery. And yes, all the evidence so far has been circumstantial. There's nothing, you know, totally provable about this. They were not able to find one shred of evidence that Chris was in the house that night. Not a fingerprint. Not a footprint, nothing. No blood. No hair, nothing in his car, like...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: He's just not there.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: As, as for the surveillance video, his defense stuck with the story that he was moving his car off campus, and by the time he got back to the lounge, his frat brothers had all gone to bed, and that's why they didn't see him there. Now, the alarm keypad. Somebody had disabled the alarm using the family's four digit code.
Em Schulz: So they had to know the code?
Christine Schiefer: They knew the code. And even though the, uh, keypad was smashed, the person who smashed it didn't realize that that data was stored somewhere else. Smashing it didn't get rid of the evidence that someone used that specific code to get into the house.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But now the defense is saying, "Well, maybe Peter turned the, you know, while he's doing dishes and walking around with this head wound, maybe he turned the alarm off, as was his habit in the morning, and when the killer came, they just smashed the keypad as like a precaution."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, they're arguing back and forth about this. Umm, I can see kind of where this gets muddied because, you know, there's also the key in the lock, which they say the killer did, but then there's proof that Peter Porco left the house. So could... So he could have used the key from the spare key lock box. Like it's, it's hard to prove. It's just so hard to prove that Chris was actually the one there. That being said, prosecution was not having any of it. They followed every possible lead and they all kept leading to dead ends, but they were still convinced Chris was the perpetrator. So when the defense argued that Chris would never have harmed another person, let alone his parents, the prosecution was like, "Fine. Then why don't we go that route? We're gonna prove that Chris is not as angelic and as perfect of a son as the defense is trying to make him out to be."
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they were onto something because remember those stolen laptops from two years earlier?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, it turns out Chris had been the one who had stolen his parents' laptops.
Em Schulz: Okay. Not very surprising at this point but okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he had staged it as a burglary and later attempted to sell them on eBay and had been caught. Furthermore, his own frat brothers testified that Chris had led them to believe he was like a totally different person. They said he was this rich kid who came from a wealthy family in Connecticut, and his grandmother owned all this land. And they said it was not unusual for him to bankroll all our parties, tell his friends that their, his family owned a lodge in Vermont, a house in Aruba. It was all made up. He like made up this whole fake rich boy persona in front of his friends. And in reality, he was actually flunking out of school and he was deeply in debt.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. Okay. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So what's more is when they checked emails in the days leading up to the attack. Chris' dad, Peter, had found out that Chris had been forging his dad's signature.
Em Schulz: Ooh, that's a rough one.
Christine Schiefer: That's a rough one. To obtain a car loan and a $31,000 loan to pay for school. And now, this is how he had actually paid for his Yellow Jeep by forging his dad's signature.
Em Schulz: Ooh, man.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Whoa. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So Peter, his dad, sent him a series of angry emails and some ex, excerpts include asking what the hell he had done, accusing him of spinning outta control. Umm, meanwhile, Joan, his mom had written to him as well, telling him his dad was about to have a nervous breakdown over all this. And that if he didn't call her, she would drive town, down to Rochester herself to talk to him in person. And, uh, one of the emails specifically read from, from his dad read, "I may be disappointed in you, but your mother and I still love you and care about your future, dad."
Em Schulz: Oy, what, that's...
Christine Schiefer: So these are the emails they're finding just days before the murders. What's also chilling is that Peter had recently mentioned to a coworker, quote, "I think my son might be a sociopath."
Em Schulz: [Gasp] Who said this?
Christine Schiefer: His dad.
Em Schulz: Peter said to his coworker?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: That's not good.
Christine Schiefer: That's not a good sign.
Em Schulz: That is very unhelpful towards his case. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Hundred percent. Chris had also failed out of several classes earlier that year and then forged transcripts so he could be readmitted. Several emails between him and his mother showed how angry they were with him for failing out of school, for lying to them, for stealing from them. So essentially, prosecutors have all of this and they present Chris as broke and desperate saying the motive was his parents' money. Alive, the family was worth around $60,000, but dead they were worth $1.1 million dollars, their life insurance policy. At the trial, which had to be moved all the way from like Albany, New York or like that area to Orange County because it was such a circus like...
Em Schulz: Oh, my god. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Locally.
Em Schulz: Like as far away as possible.
Christine Schiefer: Like truly across the coast or coast to coast. Because of the intense media coverage, Joan walked into the courtroom of the trial with her arm linked around Chris' and continued to insist he was innocent.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Now, Joan, you can see photos had, had, had to have her face fully reconstructed...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because, you know, she had been attacked so brutally. And so it's really hard to see her walking with these horrible... You know, you can see the scarring in the aftermath of her wounds. And she's like holding onto her son saying like he could never have done this, and just for someone like me, who is leaning toward he did do it, it's like a very dark picture to look at.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she takes him into the courtroom and she says, "No way, you know, he didn't do this. Uh, he would never do this." And I wanna add one more thing, which I don't think I remember to put into these notes. But speaking of the money that they were worth, it turns out that he had had a meeting with like a financial advisor, uh, right before the murders and he told them he would be coming into several $100,000s of dollars and it was from a family member.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Is what he told this financial advisor.
Em Schulz: So implying like, oh, money will be coming, but wink wink...
Christine Schiefer: Soon.
Em Schulz: Nudge nudge, the person isn't dead yet.
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Oy.
Christine Schiefer: So more than 80 witnesses took the stand in this trial, including the paramedics who watched Joan nod yes when asked if Chris was her attacker. So nine of Chris' fraternity brothers were also called to the stand to challenge Chris' alibi that he had been in the lounge that night. Christopher's older brother Jonathan also testified, and according to the Albany Times Union, Jonathan's demeanor toward his brother was icy cold. And he described their relationship as strained which, yeah.
Em Schulz: Oy.
Christine Schiefer: He didn't look at Chris the entire time he was on the stand. And then the defense brought Joan herself forward to the stand to testify. She explained she had no memory of the night, but was certain her son had nothing to do with the crime. So on the afternoon of August 10th, 2006, the jury deliberated for six hours before finding Christopher Porco guilty of second degree murder and attempted murder of his mother. He was sentenced to 50 years to life on each count, totaling a minimum of 50 years in prison.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And he is currently incarcerated at the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York. And up until now, all of his appeals have been rejected. Uh, I... There were articles as recently as a couple months ago that he's still trying to appeal. Umm, but so far everything's been rejected. He will not be eligible for parole until December, 2052.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And to at least, you know... Being Joan, this is just, you know, and the, the prosecution said this, too, like being Joan, it's horrible because you at least wanted to believe that your son was still your son and hadn't harmed you and hadn't killed your partner, umm, and now her son's going to jail. So it's like she's lost so many people at once.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Uh...
Em Schulz: We don't, we don't know if she really is in denial about him being the killer or not. So she...
Christine Schiefer: So we don't know. She insists that she has no memory of any of that.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But she had such a deep-seated guilt because she truly didn't believe that he had done it. And she had such a guilt that like maybe she had nodded and had like sentenced him to this, to this...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, prison sentence. But the jury actually has come out and they have insisted, to this day, they have insisted and still maintained that Joan's nod had absolutely nothing to do with their...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Eventual decision.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so for what it's worth, if, you know... I'm hoping that's at least some comfort to her that like that wasn't what the case was riding on for the jury.
Em Schulz: But then she still has to sit with the fact that like she will never know if maybe her son is willing and capable of doing that to her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I just have to imagine, and like, I don't know this, I have to imagine that if he did do it, she... And she did somewhere in the back of her mind know it, that she's just had to tell herself a different story to get by. You know, I, I don't know. But that... I mean, I, I can see that being the case. Umm, people have, you know, convinced themselves of much more wild theories. Umm, but yeah, so what this jury said is they want Joan to know, it was not her nod that sent her son to jail. It was Chris who got himself there. And that is the story of Christopher Porco and his family.
Em Schulz: I'm glad you covered it, 'cause I've heard that story forever of like a guy who had like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: A massive head injury and he was bleeding everywhere and didn't even notice he was bleeding everywhere and he was doing his house chores.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's scary.
Em Schulz: And it's so... Not random. It's so bizarre to like, like to hear a story of someone's going about their chores dripping in blood, and they don't even notice.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You're like, what is the story there?
Christine Schiefer: Like, how is that possible?
Em Schulz: Wow. Amazing. Amazing...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In a bad way but just still...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: I am amazed.
Christine Schiefer: It's a shocking, shocking story.
Em Schulz: Wow. I'm glad you covered that one. I, I didn't know the ins and outs to it. And I never thought it was the kid or... I, I wouldn't... Growing up and hearing that story, I never, I never thought that. Wow. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's pretty shocking.
Em Schulz: And Joan's still alive?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, as far as I know, Joan is still alive.
Em Schulz: Okay. Wow. Good story, juicy story. Interesting story, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, here, look, I just googled her. As of this year, uh, she defends her son, uh, still to this day.
Em Schulz: All right.
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: And maybe she's right.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe she's right, you know, I mean, listen, as a, as, as a famous podcaster once said, I'm no axe murderer. What do I know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. And that person sounds probably like the smartest person you've ever met. So I'd listen to them.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I was gonna say the same, but I'm glad you agree.
Em Schulz: Well, thank you, everybody, for tuning in this week on And That's Why We Drink where we tell you a true crime and paranormal story.
Christine Schiefer: Look at you! You remembered.
Em Schulz: Thank you for joining in on this hump day. And...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's enough.
Em Schulz: Uh, I guess, you know... Well, this is after the fact that we'll see you in Vegas if you're coming and other than that, you can see Christine and Xandy at Beach Too Sandy where, uh, they have their own eight shows coming up so go look at their website.
Christine Schiefer: Yay. Maybe Em will be at one. Is that gonna convince y'all to come? Maybe Em will be there.
Em Schulz: I just won't say which one and then...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and other than that, yeah, I hope everyone has, uh, a good week, and I hope everyone has learned something from our paranormal and true crime stories and maybe, umm, stay extra aware and be safe and we'll see you next week. And if you're part of, uh, Patreon, you can go hang out with us for our After Chat.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we'll see you there.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
