E330 Psychic Grandma and Swimming in Jeans
TOPICS: THE KINSELLA TWINS UFO ENCOUNTERS, THE DUGGAR FAMILY
Photo of twin brothers Philip and Ronald Kinsella. Below is a photo of the very large Duggar family and their many children.
It's our birthdays! Episode 330, here we come with some special topics to celebrate Gemini season. Going off the Gemini theme, Em covers the Kinsella twins UFO encounters, giving Christine both a twin tale and a story of creepy abductions. Then Christine really knocks it out of the park and gifts Em with the history and crimes of the Duggar family, leaving it open for Em to fill in the blanks for us and show off their trivia knowledge. And we thought we saw a baseball... and then it hit us! And that's why we drink!
TRANSCRIPT
[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Who needs Eva?
Em Schulz: Not I. Not on our birthday. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: [laughs] Happy birthday!
Em Schulz: Aah! You're hearing this out of a 30-year-old voice, but when, when you hear this, hear this, it'll, I'll be 31.
Christine Schiefer: I know...
Em Schulz: And my body will be decrepit.
Christine Schiefer: It's like you won't... Yeah, you won't recognize the, the trembling elderly voice [laughter] coming out of your mouth.
Em Schulz: I'll have significantly more wisdom though. You'll see, they'll all see. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh! They'll all see... I wonder if that's why Eva is not here today. She put on the calendar she was unavailable. And I feel like she realized we were recording our birthday episode and just didn't wanna be part of it which I don't blame her.
Em Schulz: She... She's like, "I'm outtie... " Yeah, no well...
Christine Schiefer: I don't blame her.
Em Schulz: Well, I feel bad, Christine, 'cause I really wanted to wow you with the, the, the vibe. And so... You know.
Christine Schiefer: You're wowing me to an extreme level. And I don't think you realize that. I'm loving the color-changing lights. Em literally has like rainbow lights on in the background to celebrate.
Em Schulz: I, and, you know, they're like, uh they're... Hmm. I feel like they're cool to us because we never... I never have them setting... Like the setting is rainbow, but to... All the like the cool like Twitch streamers...
Christine Schiefer: I know. They all do this.
Em Schulz: And shit and they've got a whole set up like...
Christine Schiefer: Nonsense.
Em Schulz: This is, this is a typical Tuesday for them. So. Umm and also like significantly terrible quality compared to what they offer, but...
Christine Schiefer: Well.
Em Schulz: I'm glad you're happy. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm happy. And that's what matters, right? Now I feel like you're talking me out of my... Now, now I feel like, man, you're right, Em. You should have stepped up the fucking game.
Em Schulz: Well, then we'd be on the same page, Christine...
Christine Schiefer: We did... [laughter] Aah!
Em Schulz: Because umm, I just, I'm thinking back to like, you know, remember like our first birthday together and you like decorated the whole apartment, and then we did it a couple... [laughter] We did it a couple of times in a row, and then even for our, our live show birthday party, I like had balloons everywhere, and I really thought I'm gonna fucking deliver this time and I truly had a plan to wake up early and like have decorations everywhere. And then I realized, I have been exiled from the closet that holds all of our birthday stuff because, you know, time, timeline-wise, this is confusing, but my birthday hasn't happened yet...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And all of my presents are hidden and unwrapped in there.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: And I have been told under no circumstances am I allowed to go into the closet, which is where all of the decorations for your birthday celebration would have been.
Christine Schiefer: You're doing a lot of talk, talk, talking, you know what I mean? You're doing a lot of skirting around the issue. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I guess I'll just be honest and say I thought about doing the same thing, too, but I thought, I don't have the fucking time for that, [chuckle] so I did not, but I have something planned for you during my section.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: I brought something special to the table that I have been working on. It's just not visible right now.
Em Schulz: Oh my goodness.
Christine Schiefer: Does that make sense?
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. It's just all in... It's your, your mastermind. That's the gift.
Christine Schiefer: My mind is the present. You're welcome.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Well, it always has been, it's been a gift for many.
Christine Schiefer: I know, a gift to you, and a curse. But... You know. It's okay.
Em Schulz: Well, Christine, on your 32nd birthday, it... This comes out on your actual birthday.
Christine Schiefer: On my birthday, which is kind of fun. Yeah, and you... And it comes out, we were saying at midnight.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And if we do it midnight Eastern and then it'll be your birthday and my birthday at the same time.
Em Schulz: Aah! Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like how fun is that when it comes out? So it really is like the exact crossover. [laughter]
Em Schulz: When is, uh, what is your reason for drinking? I mean, obviously, your birthday, but... Is there anything else going on?
Christine Schiefer: Well, yesterday was Mother's Day, and I think I partied a little too hardy and I did not feel well this morning, nor do I currently. So...
Em Schulz: Is the birthday girl hung over?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, for sure.
Em Schulz: Aaw.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm sure by the time this comes out, I will have selective amnesia and have decided to not uh you know, heed my past self's advice, and I'm sure that I'm having a good time tonight as well. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I was gonna say, if it's your birthday, I think you're about to experience this feeling again, so...
Christine Schiefer: That's right. It's like a weird parallel universe... Yes, umm so I'm just drinking a lot of water in an attempt to, you know... Okay, let me close this window. I opened it for Juniper... He's not even here, but somebody was dragging a bunch of chains across the ground like that seems so necessary right now.
Em Schulz: It sounds like you hired someone to play a Grim Reaper for your birthday party.
Christine Schiefer: Holy... That's what... No, wait. Did you hire that? You're like the fucking crypt-keeper.
Em Schulz: That, that would be hysterical. Actually, at the end of the chains is a bunch of edible arrangements, I forgot to tell you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Holy... Okay, fine, I was gonna say, I don't like that idea. But suddenly, I do. Umm okay, uh elevator music...
Em Schulz: You're good.
[ATWWD elevator music]
Christine Schiefer: I literally looked out the window and there is a giant decrepit truck full of wood planks and chains, and they're just dragging them around.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I texted them, I said, I said, abort, abort mission. Call it off, we're calling it off.
Christine Schiefer: Oh speeding away with all my strawberries!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's the cruelest trick of all. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, why are you drinking today, Em?
Em Schulz: I don't know why I'm drinking, I don't have anything really going on, I think I, I'm drinking because I know coming up there's a lot, and so this is like my last breath for a while, umm.
Christine Schiefer: I know, we leave this week for Vegas as we record, umm and then you're in the Philippines and oh my gosh, it's gonna be a lot.
Em Schulz: And as soon as I come back, my mom's in town...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which I, I don't... I'm excited and also a little scared 'cause I, I don't know what she's... It's for my birthday, and so I don't know if she's gonna be like cranking her energy to 100 on like trying to give me a really good birthday, and then it'll like...
Christine Schiefer: Will you be pleased about that or not, or will you be distressed about that?
Em Schulz: Umm, I don't know, I'm not sure. I know she will mean very well, but she...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: What's interesting about my, my mom is that a lot of the interest she thinks I have, she really has me frozen in time for when I last lived with her...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And so a lot of times she'd be like, "Well, I know you like this," and I'm like, I haven't liked that in half my lifetime, girl, but... Okay. And so...
Christine Schiefer: You're like wait what? Dunkaroos? Wait, just kidding, we all still love those. Nevermind.
Em Schulz: No, she, she nailed, she nailed my birthday party last year, but that's also 'cause I had a lot of say in it... Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I see, you were there to help facilitate...
Em Schulz: But she... Yeah, and for the most part, she does, umm... She does a really good job with gifts and all that, but if I, if I give her too long to over-think...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Then it ends up back tracking to like, "Oh, well, I know you like this," and I was like, "Oh, I did," and I, I can still appreciate it...
Christine Schiefer: Do you have, do you have an example of like what... I'm just curious like what your past interests were that... Like I I don't know, I don't know you from a past life, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm trying to think of what you would've liked...
Em Schulz: Umm, man I'm... You know it's so silly, I have been...
Christine Schiefer: Reggae music? I don't know.
Em Schulz: I actually did like reggae music.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I knew that in the back of my mind somehow.
Em Schulz: I, I still like it, I feel a little iffy as a white person listening to it, and like, I feel like I need to teach myself more before I could appreciate it, but... Uh, as, as a kid, I just... Again, we were very into like the, the beach and and pool world, and so I, I have like a lot of ambient music memories, and so we always had like...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: We had a lot of like island music playing growing up, but I feel like I didn't appreciate it the right way, so I could get back into it. Let me think. Umm interest-wise. Umm, I think it's it's weird because she's kind of valid in it that like I still like a lot of childhood things, please look at this room umm, for clarity, umm. [laughter] But it's like things like SpongeBob, like she'll think that I still like SpongeBob or something like that. And I'm like, you're all... You're close, but not like... It's it's grown a little.
Christine Schiefer: We like SpongeBob, don't get us wrong...
Em Schulz: It's superheroes now, mom, leave me alone.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I've grown, I've changed, I've matured.
Em Schulz: Anyway, she's... I know she means well, but I, I think it's also umm... It's not that I'm worried about her trying to plan something for me, it's that she's trying to plan stuff for me, and Allison's trying to plan stuff for me and my mom.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure.
Em Schulz: And, and I'm trying, and I also have the nerves of like Allison and my mom mingling which like, not that they wouldn't get along, but I just still... You know. They haven't seen... Even though we've been together for a long time, they haven't been in the same room together all that often, so it still feels new.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So I get antsy, I just want everyone to have a good time, so.
Christine Schiefer: I think they will. I do.
Em Schulz: I think they'll be fine. I just get nervous anyway.
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
Em Schulz: Oi. 32-year-old, I got a story for you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I'm so excited.
Em Schulz: So I went... By the way, I wish you could see how my arms are positioned, I have like them both, like hip... Like on my hips, just kinda like a dad on, in a yard.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, just to look out?
Em Schulz: I don't know. Yeah, it looks like I'm looking out a window.
Christine Schiefer: At the, at the clouds?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I like those TikToks where it's like dads coming outside when the tornado warning goes off.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And all the dads appear, like they've been summoned...
Em Schulz: That's how I'm...
Christine Schiefer: By the universe...
Em Schulz: That's how I'm leaning right now with one foot tapping and just very pensive...
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's very cool for you. Are you... Is that your new 31-year-old self coming through?
Em Schulz: I think so, I've been doing a lot more with the hands on the hips recently. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I don't know what that means. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I like this journey for you though.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Okay, so I've been going... I went on the social medias and I hid you from my stories and I asked everybody what they would wanna...
Christine Schiefer: Oh! I never know when you do this. I never figure it out, I guess that's the point.
Em Schulz: That is the point. Yeah. And I had Blaise too, in case he tried to talk to you about it. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. He does watch all your stories, so... Yes. He would have probably seen something.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, yeah, I knew that was a tricky game, so I just blocked him, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Good idea.
Em Schulz: I asked everybody what they would want see on a birthday episode, and like 90% of people wrote in saying something about Geminis.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: And my thought though is like some people said, just do an episode on Geminis, but then I was afraid that was gonna lead into like a 12-part series about astrology and everyone gets their own sign.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, sure sure. That's a big commitment. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And I don't know if it's something that anyone would truly wanna hear, so I didn't wanna lose an audience for 12 weeks. You know like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah that I, I appreciate... As a business part... As your business partner, I do also appreciate that. [laughs]
Em Schulz: Thank you, I was afraid like only Geminis will listen in for this week and then next week it'd be something else...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we really like cut our listenership down by 11/12s, whatever that fraction would be.
Em Schulz: Everyone would be like, "Wow, you guys are not doing well, you have a dip in your audience,"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah [giggles] what happened?
Em Schulz: So uh anyway, I was like, what else can I do for the Gemini? Gemini, Gemini, and I was like, okay, let me see if I can find anything on twins, and so I tried to do like a creepy twin story. There are many, shockingly.
Christine Schiefer: I love twin stories.
Em Schulz: But I did find one and it is also a UFO story, and I was like, well, here we go.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Are you serious? Oh my God, okay, okay.
Em Schulz: So a bit of a leap, but your birthday theme is twins and I got you an alien story...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, but I feel like that's exactly what I would have wanted. So you really nailed it.
Em Schulz: Perfect, so this is the story of the Kinsella twins and their UFO encounters.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: Uh basically, there are two twins, these guys, Ronald and Philip, and they have had, collectively to their knowledge, four different UFO encounters.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And I say, to their knowledge, because both of them believe there's probably been more.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So the first sighting happened when they were 13 years old, this is in 1982, 1983, and they're at their grandmother's house and they're out in the garden with their grandma, when all of a sudden, they see something flying towards them. Starting out hot.
Christine Schiefer: It's like that joke that I love. Speaking of dads, uh I thought I saw a baseball coming toward me and then it hit me.
Em Schulz: And then it hit me!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ha ha.
Em Schulz: Wanna know how I know that one?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: 'Cause you tell me all the time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! [laughter] I'm like where did you learn that great joke? Okay, gotcha. Sorry.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You mean, where did I learn that nugget of comedy gold? Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Just like genius. Yes.
Em Schulz: Uh, so they were outside and something hit them, it was not a baseball, it was spherical.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And it was actually the shape of a football, funny enough.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, man, I was close.
Em Schulz: Which is that... Or the size of a football. It was literally a, spherical. I'm so stupid. It was a circle and the size of a football.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Umm it was silver, it was seamless, they couldn't find anything that would be making it move by itself, and it was beyond technology of their time.
Christine Schiefer: Huh.
Em Schulz: It flew towards them, it was coming up behind their grandma, and then it stopped mid-air over their head.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: Uh over grandma's head. And they're looking at this thing, they realized, pretty immediately they sense that this thing's intelligent, for some reason.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Umm and they both see it and they asked their grandma what it was. I don't know if she saw it or if she did, it doesn't really matter, but either way, she says, "Oh, it's just a fairy coming to get a closer look at us," and...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, is that supposed to be comforting, grandma? That just makes me more nervous. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right, so they literally to this day, say that whatever that was, we know for sure, even if fairies are real, that was not a fucking fairy, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: Like without question, that was not a fairy. And they do wonder if she had experienced it before and was afraid to scare them, or maybe she didn't know and just didn't wanna deal with their bullshit.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And uh the sense they got was that she was trying to protect them.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And so that makes me think grandma has had an encounter before if she's...
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point. She seemed really quick on that explanation.
Em Schulz: Like too quick.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And we find out later, fun fact, that grandma apparently was psychic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord.
Em Schulz: So maybe she was... She had some tinglings about what was going on.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: So anyway, the twins think that at this point, they... She just didn't wanna scare them, but they knew it wasn't a fairy, and as soon as they talked about this it started moving again.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So it moved away from grandma's head, it's almost like it heard it, "Don't call me a fairy," and I'm just like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, how dare you? Does this... Is this something a fairy would do?
Em Schulz: Bam! Yeah, and zipped away.
Christine Schiefer: Zoop, zoop... Probably, actually...
Em Schulz: And... Well, so then it flies all the way to grandma's house.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: So, they're outside, it flies closer to the house, stops mid-air at the second floor, as if it's looking through the windows, they said felt like it was scanning.
Christine Schiefer: Good night. Eww!
Em Schulz: Then it... Then it levitates higher up, gets to the third floor, stops at a window and starts looking.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] I'm glad I shut my window, now I'm getting nervous. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And then it flies a little higher up towards the roof and takes off. And the kids...
Christine Schiefer: I thought you're gonna say the fourth floor, I'm like, how many... What kind of fucking McMansion are they living in?
Em Schulz: So grandma's estate... Uh she...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's full of fairies and a lot of bedrooms.
Em Schulz: It's Balmoral, actually. I'm, I'm talking...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what that is. Oh.
Em Schulz: We're talking about the Queen here... It's the Queen's house, well the King's, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: No, I haven't heard of such a thing.
Em Schulz: That's like the name of their estate, their castle.
Christine Schiefer: Is it, really? I genuinely, I'm not just trying to be an ass, I really didn't know that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, now you're, now you're freaking me out, was I wrong?
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't know anything about the royals, this is like an admission that I know nothing.
Em Schulz: I, uh, Balmoral, castle and estate. Okay, thank God. Because...
Christine Schiefer: I, uh listen, I believe you 100%
Em Schulz: Anyway, joke landed. Okay, so. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Happy birthday.
Em Schulz: Uh, so anyway, he takes off, this thing takes off of the roof, and the kids wanna follow it, so they run around the back of the house to see it, and they... When they get there, they see it's still in the sky, but speeding up and taking off into the distance.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Uh and Philip says that this is the first time they had actually seen something that people had told him throughout his life could not be real.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: And so this was I think the first time he probably felt like, I can't say anything, but this was fucking crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm Ronald still refers to this orb as an electronic eye.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: Because from the second I saw it, he said it felt like it was watching them and did watch them for a long time after that.
Christine Schiefer: That's deeply upsetting. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Deeply traumatic.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You imagine being a kid and now wondering if it's ever scanning your window when you're sleeping? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Like yeah. If you're sleeping in bed and you're like... Any glimmer, you're like, "Oh my God, the eye is back." Eugh!
Em Schulz: Yeah, forget it.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: So that was their first encounter with this thing. And they did it together at least, so yay trauma bonding.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: But, but then, they each have their own individual encounters.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So the second interaction they have is actually the first time that Ronald sees this thing by himself. So Ronald goes first. And uh they were still 13, so this encounter happened shortly after the first interaction.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And he remembers... Uh this is the only encounter he remembers having alone.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Again, to his knowledge, and he only mentioned it in 2012, so it's only been like a decade since he's been open with this.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, I saw at one place, it might have been 2010, but I think it was 2012. So, he's 13 years old, and Ronald, quick and short, he was taken in the middle of the night from his bed, but to get more into it, he's taken in the middle of the night from his bed and he meets the doctors.
Christine Schiefer: Em! [laughter] I hate that so much, I hate it so much!
Em Schulz: He even later says, he was like I... And he interrupts his own story when he says doctors to be like, "By the way, I call them the doctors, I knew so fucking well, they were not doctors, they were not doctors."
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] I have full goosecam. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: This is a quote from Ronald. Umm it's a long one, but this is like... I mean, I, I listen to a few podcasts that they were interviewed on, and just felt like he... I mean he nailed it. It's his story. So this is a quote of what happened to him. "This is the nasty thing about this, you have no control over it," of being taken out of his bed. "It is a violation because you're taken against your will. I was taken up, I went through the house and I could see this shape in the sky. Next thing I knew, I had awoken. When I was awake, there was this advanced form of wheelchair. I was in this room, there was an operating table."
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: "That's what caught my attention first, and there were three doctors ahead of it," who he... Again, says, "I knew they were not doctors."
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: "I couldn't move in the chair, I was paralyzed to a degree and I couldn't turn back. The strange thing about these doctors is they were taller than me and ha... They were clad in a uniform from head to toe, you couldn't even see their eyes because... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: "They wore visors, I couldn't see any trace of them, they even had gloves on."
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh!
Em Schulz: And so that's why he calls them the doctors 'cause they were wrapped up like surgeons.
Christine Schiefer: That's so upsetting!
Em Schulz: He thinks he startled them by being awake, which is interesting because to this day, he wonders if they planned on keeping him asleep and did their own technology fail.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Because he says, when he woke up, they were like shocked, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no! You don't want that even with regular doctors.
Em Schulz: Oh right.
Christine Schiefer: If there's a look of shock on any doctor's face, I'm like, something not good is happening.
Em Schulz: Exactly, if I'm ever being put under, it's like I hope to never remember you.
Christine Schiefer: Don't... Yeah, don't let me wake up.
Em Schulz: But so, his best guess over all these years, he thinks that they were in disguise as a plan B, in case he did wake up so he couldn't see what they looked like.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's really upsetting.
Em Schulz: So then that leads him into like being even more paranoid about like, okay, so did you, did your technology... Was it shaky and you knew it might not work.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so you knew you needed this plan B? Because why were you shocked that I... But then why were you shocked that I woke up? If like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. If that was a possibility.
Em Schulz: So are you dressed up like this all the time?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So that, that becomes one of the things that I think he might have spiraled on for a while.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: He could sense a male presence behind him and the beings all spoke to him in English, and they were polite but authoritative, and they said, "We're going to perform an operation on you, Ronald."
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] No! This is the stuff of genuine nightmare... I mean, true deep seated genuine nightmares.
Em Schulz: He even said that made his skin crawl 'cause they knew his name and they knew how to refer to him, which confirms that they've been watching.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine if they said "Donald" by mistake and he's like, they don't even know my fucking name, you got the wrong patient.
Em Schulz: Imagine if they said, "Philip," he's like, that's my brother! You've got the wrong guy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you've got the wrong guy, send me back!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: "So we're gonna perform an operation on you, Ronald."
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: They said uh it was for his own good and it must be done.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Even though Ronald was begging them not to... And I don't know if this was telepathically, it seems like all their conversation was telepathic.
Christine Schiefer: This is horrific.
Em Schulz: Umm he kept saying, "Please don't do this, please don't do this." And they said, "Ronald, we will not harm you." LOL okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah uh... Okay.
Em Schulz: Apparently, in their world, consent is not part of the protocol.
Christine Schiefer: Right, I guess not.
Em Schulz: Uh they had this instrument that was essentially a needle...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, you know that I'm gonna leave now. Right?
Em Schulz: It's not as bad as you think. They just, they, oh, they took his left... The palm of his left hand, they put the needle in, gross, and he blacked the fuck out. So...
Christine Schiefer: In the palm of his hand. That's interesting.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I was like, in my mind, I can't tell if that's better or worse than any of the...
Christine Schiefer: Me, me neither. Me neither. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like the, the... I also have a thing where like my... I don't know if this is the normal human condition or if I'm an odd duck, but my, the palms of my hands are always ticklish. Are yours? Are yours?
Christine Schiefer: Oh! No.
Em Schulz: Oh, if, if I even touch my own hands, I hate it.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't have that.
Em Schulz: And so, in my mind, being stabbed with a needle, I'd have the quickest fist in the world, I'd shut that shit down real quick.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: But... Then and mind's like uh... Like is that...
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like, ooh, it tickles. And they'd be like, it's, "We're trying to sedate you." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, I don't think I could tolerate that. I, 'cause also at least if they like... I already have needle issues, but if they're gonna put it in my usual spot...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: At least I can, I'm expected to close my fist, like a reflex of like... So I don't know, but...
Christine Schiefer: Right. And now they're just like, open up. Eww!
Em Schulz: Yeah, the palm feels so incredibly like intimate, like vulnerable for some reason.
Christine Schiefer: And it feels like why would that be this... Why? Like it doesn't seem like that would be the most effective way to administer anything.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: I don't... Maybe that's where their like elbow vein is, in, in their hands.
Christine Schiefer: Oh maybe that's the IV. Oh God. Horrible.
Em Schulz: Uh, so he blacks out, and when he wakes up, he has, he is in the middle of exiting the UFO, which is a fancy way of saying he's fucking free falling. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He's in the middle of exiting. That's a fun way to put it. He's in the process of disembarking.
Em Schulz: He's, he's essentially horizontal in the air, at a speed. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Cool, that's just great.
Em Schulz: Uh he said that while this was happening, he was like, maybe it's 'cause I don't remember going up into the UFO, so I don't know what the, you know, physiological experience was 'cause I was asleep and then I woke up when I was there...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But going down, I remember my skin feeling like it was electric and my hair was standing on end, and I...
Christine Schiefer:[Gasp]
Em Schulz: I had like the belly flopping of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow!
Em Schulz: Of being on a roller coaster, umm but at the same time, as he's feeling all this, he's not like, umm... I don't know the right word but he's...
Christine Schiefer: Free falling?
Em Schulz: He's yeah, he's not free falling, he's still under their powers or something, and he's floating down.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So they're like lowering him, basically?
Em Schulz: Yeah, but it still feels to him like he's falling, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which is its own version of hell, if you think you're free falling and you're not.
Christine Schiefer: Absofuckinglutely, through the sky, yeah, as a child...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I wondered too, if like... When he says his skin was tingling, if it was like a...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, those things, those... I don't... Okay, I don't know, but you know those balls that have like electrostatic...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if that was like how they maneuvered him.
Em Schulz: I wonder if the tingling on his skin was like some sort of like electromagnetic draw that they were like bringing him down... Like you could feel the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And like your hairs stand on end. You know, when you touch those and your hair goes up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like I wonder if that was happening. Ooh!
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. That's a good point. I don't know, umm... But yeah so...
Christine Schiefer: I'm a scientist. I know it's hard to believe, but...
Em Schulz: No? Alright, well, had me fooled.
Christine Schiefer: I thought maybe.
Em Schulz: So he floated back down to uh, uh, he floated into his bedroom, I guess they like, they also brought him through his whole house, which is also so weirdly intimate and violating of like... You know the layout of my house.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it's like, I've got this from here, bud, like I, you can, I can walk down the hall, back to my room, you don't need to like deliver me.
Em Schulz: Well, they delivered him to his bed and he said, shockingly, the scariest part of this entire experience, he was scared throughout, but the scariest part was when, I guess he was like... When they turned the the kill switch on of his like magnetic draw to them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And all of a sudden he wasn't being pulled and floated by them, it was just... He was back to being on his own, the first time he felt himself drop out of this force and onto his bed. That was the scariest part.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh! Really?
Em Schulz: Because he said the the touching of his bed made it real, it wasn't like he woke up from a dream or something, he feel, he felt the impact of landing back in bed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no! And then all of a sudden, you're like, you just are... Have to sit there and face all of what just happened. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yup.
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point.
Em Schulz: And while and while he's lying there, umm in hindsight, he says it was a hologram at... In the '80s, he didn't have a word for it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting.
Em Schulz: But uh there was a hologram projected on the ceiling of his bed. So as soon as he laid down and was already really fucking like discombobulated.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: All of a sudden, this hologram shows up on the ceiling of the Cheshire cat.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] What? I was not expecting that!
Em Schulz: And the Cheshire cat is smiling uh where he can see all the rows of its teeth and it's waving at him, and it just stared at him for minutes, and then eventually dissolved away.
Christine Schiefer: Why, are they like, this will make him feel better?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right. Is that, was that supposed to be comforting?
Christine Schiefer: Comforting? Like what the fuck.
Em Schulz: He says, of the Cheshire cat experience, he said, "It was the most awfulest thing I have ever seen, and in fact, it scarred me because I've never forgotten it."
Christine Schiefer: Same... I mean, I I've had nightmares that have scarred me like from watching certain characters, but like...
Em Schulz: I think it's also because like, uh like the whole everything up until that point was whatever, quote, is expected of a an abduction story, but that was a real fucking curveball, like that's...
Christine Schiefer: It's a fucking plot twist, for sure. And uh you know, I've heard some alien stories where uh kids say that they felt like that that beings were like trying to project something that they would re... The kids would recognize. Like one kid said they appeared to him as like circus monkeys, as if, feel like they were playful and fun...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And like, he's like, they didn't realize probably how terrifying that was, but they were like, "Oh, don't be scared. We are your friends. We're fun circus monkeys," like don't be scared, there's a fun cat smiling at you.
Em Schulz: Where, whereas... Can you imagine just like several monkeys getting in your face, being like, "We're nice, we're nice!"
Christine Schiefer: We're like juggling... Like aah!
Em Schulz: Ugh! Oh my God. Umm, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I heard that's a thing.
Em Schulz: It's very creepy. And one of the things that he has said in hindsight, umm Ronald said that a few years before he had seen Alice in Wonderland, and so one of his beliefs on...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: What these aliens are capable of is like tapping into your memory...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so maybe you're on to something where they were trying to come up with something where he felt like relaxed.
Christine Schiefer: Familiar, yeah.
Em Schulz: Or maybe... But his thought too, which is a little more sinister, is that they picked something that was of an imagination, so that way, if he ever brought this up to people, it would sound more like it was a dream.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that's upsetting.
Em Schulz: He could be, he could be gaslit into like, oh well you tricked yourself.
Christine Schiefer: It just imme... Yes! It like immediately invalidates the story, if someone's like, "Oh, it sounds like a we... Bad dream."
Em Schulz: Yeah, or like, "Oh, we also... The Cheshire cat freaked all of us out at some point... " like some...
Christine Schiefer: "Yeah, you should stop watching scary movies," and I wonder too if like, it was meant to make him gaslight himself like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Oh yeah, maybe I didn't see all that. It was just a weird dream."
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was all a dream, ugh!
Christine Schiefer: I wish.
Em Schulz: Which like, that that does feel sinister of like, "Oh, maybe he seems to be remembering too much, let's just... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Let's do whatever we can to make him think this wasn't real.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: So after this incident, he ended up uh, quickly after this, having really intense pain, umm and he was at school one time and he had three big waves of horrible pain flow through him.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Bam, bam, bam, and then all of a sudden, he passed out next to... Uh, to... Onto the student next to him, like fell over onto the student next to him.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And uh, he was saying that he was having... Like it made him... Like he fell over and then he fitted, which he was, he's British, so I think that means he was having a seizure.
Christine Schiefer: Had a seizure.
Em Schulz: Umm and he kept saying, "I, I never fitted before, I'd never fitted before."
Christine Schiefer: That must be what it is. Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's what I'm thinking. But anyway, he... That was the only time it had ever happened, it never happened again, but he's definitely attributes it to, to that...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: 'Cause like I, all of a sudden, it was like... I don't know, it feels like maybe his body was like trying to like repel whatever was in him, or like maybe they had...
Christine Schiefer: I wonder, yeah.
Em Schulz: Or maybe they had something implanted in him and that it caused that.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I was thinking is like with that surgery or whatever... I mean. Uh like, ooh! I mean and you can't just go back to the doctor for a follow-up. Right? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible.
Em Schulz: Well, they talk about that a lot, 'cause they were saying... Philip, actually, I listened to more interviews from him, and I would assume Ronald feels about the same way, where they were saying like, at that time, like you couldn't tell anybody about this stuff, like there was no...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Alien UFO craze where people believed you... Like it was... There was a, a UFO craze since like the '50s, and people thought they were like cool stories, but if you ever told anybody you were like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. There wasn't like a support group for you or anything.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, so they, they said a lot of times, "We couldn't tell our doctor, we couldn't tell anybody."
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: Umm, and I think I heard this right in an interview, but after this happened to Ronald, every two or three years after that experience, Ronald would see a UFO at some point, and I, I think it was more of like a distant noticing versus an encounter...
Christine Schiefer: I don't like that, I wonder if they want him to see it, like, "We're still here."
Em Schulz: That's always the creepiest part, is the, what is the intent of our awareness?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like do you want us to know, or are, are we catching you and you're really bad at this?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, did he like have some weird veil where now he can see them and we can't?
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? Like maybe he accessed something.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I swear to God, you're gonna give me the worst nightmares tonight, happy birthday!
Em Schulz: So... So it was uh... That was Ronald's personal objection. And that was the second encounter. Now, the third encounter that they had was Philip's individual experience.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no!
Em Schulz: So this actually happens years later.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine your brother telling you about what happened and being like, "Does that mean mine is coming next?" like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, I... I would...
Christine Schiefer: That feeling of like impending doom?
Em Schulz: Well, he had an impending doom for seven years.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my go... And then right when you probably think you're safe...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: I don't know if they uh... I don't know when Ronald told Philip and vice versa.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Ronald must have said something to Philip because Philip pretty immediately tells Ronald about his experience, so I'm thinking they at least had each other.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But... So anyway, the year is now 1989, and Philip has his personal encounter, where he recalls it as, quote, "not in any way benevolent... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: "It was very, truly a horrific experience and one I've never forgotten."
Christine Schiefer: That's so sad.
Em Schulz: They were both really, really tortured by this.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: I'm sure they still are. Umm so, umm they have been doing a... Like an insane amount of interviews about it though, so at least they're you know, talking about it now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I can't imagine... I can't imagine decades of keeping it to yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Of having to be quiet. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So Philip believes that he may have had a few more encounters, umm either more than Ronald or just more than he is aware of, because he says there were a lot of odd events and leading up to those events, umm he would... Like something really weird would happen, or he would find marks on his body or he would find marks that like didn't make sense, and so he thinks that there were more abductions than he's aware of.
Christine Schiefer: [Sucks teeth] It's like, it's like, I guess it's a good thing you don't remember, but also...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like how it, how invasive...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what's better or worse, to be honest.
Em Schulz: Yeah, 'cause also, I mean like, like, if they're getting marks on their body, you know something's happening to you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it's like... I don't know, it's like do you wanna know?
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, do you wanna know?
Em Schulz: I don't, yeah, would you...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so but...
Em Schulz: I don't think I'd wanna know either, but then I'd be paranoid about like, I would wanna get x-rays every five seconds on every part of my body being like...
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: Is there something here, is there something here? Is there something here? And then if they didn't find anything, I'd be like, well, is it invisible to our technology? I would just live in constant...
Christine Schiefer: Constant paranoia. And I'm already clumsy. Like, I get mystery bruises all the time, so I would be like, oh my God, like every cat scratch or like... Ugh! Constant paranoia, for sure.
Em Schulz: Well... So he does believe that there have been other events, but both of them have said like, "We are not here to like bullshit people, we just wanna report facts, we don't wanna report guesses," so they really only talk about these four encounters.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, interesting.
Em Schulz: Umm, they do, like they'll say anecdotally, like, oh, I'm pretty sure there were more.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But on the record officially, they're only talking, only talking about encounters they remember fully.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So his time comes when he's 20 years old.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: He's coming home from work and he walks into the kitchen and his siblings are there, he has his twin brother, and then their sister is there, and he's just hanging out in the kitchen with them, and he says, all of a sudden, the energy changes and the air felt electrically charged. And he said many things happened at once, but the main thing is that he remembers looking at his brother, his brother freezes.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Paralyzed, looks up at the ceiling, as if he can see something nobody else can. And says, "There's going to be an earthquake or grandma's going to die."
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] [chuckle] Oh no!
Em Schulz: The dog starts freaking out, and down the hall, he could see glass doors, and through the glass, he sees this huge light come through the house. He thinks at first it might be his mom's headlights shining through the glass doors, but the light grows so bright that the only way he can explain it is that eventually, the light began to bend the door's glass.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God!
Em Schulz: And the glass became, quote, "pliable like jelly."
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Now they're just showing off.
Em Schulz: Yeah, right. How...
Christine Schiefer: For what like... What, open the door.
Em Schulz: It's like two days ago, I was abducted and didn't even notice it, now like you really wanna put on this performance, for what?
Christine Schiefer: You put on a fucking show. Yeah, then the monkeys come in juggling, and it's like, well, great.
Em Schulz: Well, that really is its own story, like its own umm like thing to question, right, of like, well, why before did you not have to put on the show...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or did you always put on a show and I've never known, like...
Christine Schiefer: And I was asleep and I just didn't see it.
Em Schulz: And why this time am I able to see it? Or why this time do you want me to see it?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And so uh, anyway, the light grows and grows, the glass of the door literally just does not exist apparently, and his brother is still frozen, looking at the ceiling, and said that really awful string of words. Philip keeps looking down the hall while this is happening and sees a creature up here.
Christine Schiefer: No, not a creature!
Em Schulz: He describes it as, quote, "a small 3-foot being, all clad in black with an oversized helmet on its head, and it walked through the pliable glass and ran into our bedroom."
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Ooh!
Em Schulz: His brother comes... His brother comes out of this trance, the dog, I think stops freaking out and everything feels, I guess like it's supposed to be going back to normal, but he is still so fucking on edge and saw this thing that Philip...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Philip grabs a knife and tells the siblings like, there's an intruder in the house, which like good thought... Even though...
Christine Schiefer: It's Marvin the Martian and his big, big helmet. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And like honestly, that alone shows that he has more like gusto than I'll ever have, because if that all happened to me the last thing I would even remember to do is grab a knife and go looking for the intruder.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, literally, I don't know why I would do, but nothing productive.
Em Schulz: I'd just look you in the eyes and be like, "We gotta roll out." We, we're... Time to bounce.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. It's been great. It's been real. It's been fun. We're never coming back into this house again.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. [chuckle] And, uh, but so they go looking for this creature that he saw run into the room, and it wasn't there. They just couldn't find it.
Christine Schiefer: Great. Just what you need. It's like, it's like that thing when you see a spider and then you can't find it. And like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Where could he be? And now it's that, but so much worse.
Em Schulz: So much worse...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Except the spider is going to maybe operate on you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah but seriously. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm. So he did say, uh, at, he saw at one point that the creature darted from their room down the hall. So he even looked, he looked through the whole house and they never found anything.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Umm, but later that night/the next early morning, Philip wakes up in the middle of the night and finds himself floating.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it!
Em Schulz: He is out of his bed and he's floating out towards the hall. He was, quote, "On my back, I can't move, but I'm being pulled forward. I am fully conscious, but I'm not able to move as I'm being pulled through the kitchen glass doors... "
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: "Through the glass doors... I'm wondering how it is that I'm able to pass through solid matter." So they came...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So they came, they came back into the jelly door thing all over again while he was sleeping.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe they did the jelly door thing earlier, and it created some sort of weird setup where later on they could bring him through it.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Like maybe that was all the preamble.
Em Schulz: Hmm. See, my thought was maybe they thought that, if there's a procedure to abducting somebody, and the first one is to like make them paralyzed or freeze up or fall asleep...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I feel like they forgot to flip that switch and they thought they had, so then they came down, made the doors jelly, they were gonna abduct them, and then that little creature saw that one of them was awake and he ran away.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And he was like, oh, no, no, no, no.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Yeah, that actually makes sense too. In the worst way.
Em Schulz: And then they waited till the, and then they waited till they were asleep and came back and tried again.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: That's my thought.
Christine Schiefer: I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Because especially because I wonder if it's a twin thing because it's interesting that everyone else froze...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And even his brother froze. And maybe that was them switching on the, okay, let's disable him thing, of like...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: But then they, maybe because they're identical twins, maybe it only worked on one of them and not the other or something. And so they came down... I don't know, I'm totally rambling, but that was my thought of like, oh shit, it didn't work. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, actually it does... I, I wanna say make sense, but you know, in...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: In a very fucked up way makes sense. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But also it could totally be, your preamble idea could also totally work.
Christine Schiefer: Like that weird Martian was sent in advance to...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I have no idea, man.
Em Schulz: He was like the first guy on the ground to see if they were like, totally like, frozen and, and able to be like manipulated and all that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's doing like a test run, I don't know. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Well, so anyway, he is now, it's, it's worked. And so the doors are...
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: Back to being jelly. He floats through the doors. Umm, and by the way, he says the dog this time was asleep for all this. So, uh, maybe he...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, excellent.
Em Schulz: He makes a joke of like, oh, maybe the dog just didn't give a shit after the first time. But...
Christine Schiefer: The dog was like, "Oh, our friends are back."
Em Schulz: Right. But also, maybe they made sure the dog would be asleep, so they didn't have a threat to them.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: I'm glad the dog wasn't traumatized at the very least.
Em Schulz: Yeah. At the very least. So the dog, not the dog, Philip floats through, uh, the door. He's now outside. He got brought through his whole patio, through his whole house and got to the patio. He's now outside. He sees the sky. And when he's looking up at the sky, he sees that there's multiple UFOs all lit up and moving around him...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Oh no!
Em Schulz: Which feels like, did they bring the cavalry? Like why are there so many UFOs for one person to be abducted?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know!
Em Schulz: Or do they all do this together like a little family? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Is it like they're doing their rounds as doctors, residents?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like everybody's gathered to like watch...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A patient interaction? I don't know. That's so weird.
Em Schulz: It's very odd. And it makes me wonder, just like how you said earlier, like were they tapped into being able to see things that others can't? So are there always multiple UFOs, but you only see one?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. Like, are, are they always... Right, right, right. Maybe he can see through the veil now all of a sudden.
Em Schulz: Well, he remembers thinking, while he's looking up. He remembers thinking, wow, UFOs are real, but not being able to react. 'Cause he couldn't move.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no! [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Uh, of all the moving UFOs, there was one that was not moving.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And it was gray. It was disc-shaped and once he saw it, his body was immediately being pulled towards it without his control.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Oh no. Oh no.
Em Schulz: As he approached this thing and got closer and closer, he started browning out. Eventually he blacks out and doesn't remember anything. He loses a big chunk of time, as far as he knows. And when he comes to, he finds himself in a medical facility.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: He said it was very hot. He was naked and he was strapped to a bed.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And he said to his right there were three reptilians. And in, uh, and in the UFO was also a gray. So there was a gray and three reptilians. Without going any further, he was S-A-ed. And, uh, when he, he said one of the more like embarrassing parts for him, which I hope he still doesn't feel embarrassed about this, is that when he later wrote an account about this and tried to get a book published, they told him to omit that part because nobody would understand what he was going through...
Christine Schiefer: God.
Em Schulz: Which like, gross.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously. Like, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: So, uh, it... By the way, like hindsight, he's now written like, I think 20 books or something. So he's, he, he's handling it. He's...
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: Getting his story out there.
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: So once it was over, umm, the gray then told him to get dressed and follow him to the door of the UFO, and he could look out and see, once he got to the door, he could look out and see his village from above.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And he actually saw another craft that was closer to his house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then he was told by the gray to leave and he was like, what do you mean leave? Like, and the alien was like, go down there. And he was like, you mean... He was like, you mean jump? Like...
Christine Schiefer: What do you mean? Literally.
Em Schulz: You want me to like skydive out of your UFO into my house? And he doesn't, he obviously didn't do it himself. He felt someone push him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And then he is also now falling out of a UFO. But what's interesting is, uh, it sounds like Ronald was on his own floating down and having like this draw from the UFO where they brought him down gently. This time around he was also being brought down gently, but he had two grays float down with him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, weird!
Em Schulz: And when they got down, uh, they told him not to look back. [chuckle] To like, not look at the UFO.
Christine Schiefer: Would you look back? I don't know what I would do.
Em Schulz: Honestly at that... I don't know what I would do. I think I wouldn't have even really registered whatever they had to say...
Christine Schiefer: That's probably true. Yeah.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I'd processing so much more. I'd probably...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think I would look because I think I'd be like, I just wanna get out of this situation.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I, I think that might be what I'd do too. I could see myself not hearing them and just like involuntarily just accidentally looking back and them being like, "Are you fucking kidding me? We just said don't do that."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You didn't say it loud enough.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So when he did see another gray, umm, or what he did see was another gray down once he landed. So the two dropped him off and said, don't look back. And he sees another gray waiting for him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: This gray is wearing a pointed hat. He's wearing a one-piece khaki suit. So like okay romper.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Love that for you.
Em Schulz: He's wearing knee-length boots, which I think is, I don't know if this is like a usual phrase in the UK, but the way that Philip described him was suited and booted, or booted and suited or something.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And I was like, "What a, what a way to put that." umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, here it is, suited and booted. I just loo-looked it up.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It says, uh, it means according to Cambridge University, Cambridge Dictionary, dressed in formal clothes.
Em Schulz: Yep. Well, he was...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Suited and booted in a khaki suit.
Christine Schiefer: Good for him.
Em Schulz: And knee-length boots and a pointy hat. He looked...
Christine Schiefer: He was feeling himself, I think.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I guess so. Or I wonder if that means he had like, he had a different ranking or something. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: He, uh, he also apparently looked a little different. Apparently, his face shape and his eyes looked a little different and he eerily felt familiar.
Christine Schiefer: That's not good.
Em Schulz: So. I don't know what the deal is there. He, uh, but he felt familiar. And what Philip noticed was that this thing was angry at him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like had his arms folded. Uh, and Philip felt like someone had hit him in like his solar plexus and like...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: He felt like the wind was knocked out of him and he just knew that it was coming from this thing and it was really mad at him. And Philip, he was like, I immediately wanted to like fucking punch this thing. I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was like, how can you possibly be mad at me? Uh, this all, all this shit just happened to me. And like you're...
Christine Schiefer: What the hell did I do wrong?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I didn't even wanna be here and you're mad at me? So he wanted to like get violent with this thing. And I don't probably know. I wonder if they sense that in him or could read his mind. I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Which like, that sucks too, because you can't even have an emotion and without...
Christine Schiefer: Without...
Em Schulz: Feeling unsafe.
Christine Schiefer: And that... And I wonder that, I wonder that all the time when it comes to like the, the telepathic side of the alien encounters. Like, because how do you filter? Can you filter anything out? Like, can you have any personal thoughts or is everything just going straight to them?
Em Schulz: Like every thought is unsafe. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oi. So he does think, he's like, instead of being like, he's, he's mad, but he is like, I just have to ask them a question. I have to do something. And so he said it felt very natural to assume it, this was a telepathic communication. So, he didn't even have to think about it. He just knew if...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: If I'm talking I'm gonna do it telepathically. And he asked, how come I was able to get through the door? How come I was able to get through solid matter? Because he, I think he thought, if I can figure that out, then in hindsight I can like, try to start.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: Doing my own research on their technology. Or I can do my own research on like how advanced they are.
Christine Schiefer: And maybe protect myself in some way, next time.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So his only question was how did I get through the door?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And he says that this entity or this being, when he said that, looked fucking floored, looked shocked.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And I don't know if it's shocked that Philip was able to communicate with him or that Philip was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like about what? Shocked about what?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I wonder if he... [laughter] I wonder if this thing felt shocked. Like, wait a minute. You're not supposed to be able to go through matter and like realized that they like fucked up their own plan.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh! I love that. Like, wait, you can't always do that?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, hang on a second. Did we show you too much of our hands? Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: Man, it sucks to be human. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well he said that the, the being, even like his mouth went into an Oh. He was that shocked of like, oh... Like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Which it really sounds like, it, it, in my mind, the alien looked like a, oh, I don't think I realized that we fucked up something like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah we clearly some... Or somebody dropped the ball.
Em Schulz: Somebody dropped the ball. Or I wonder if he was just shocked that like, oh, you were supposed to be asleep and you saw that?
Christine Schiefer: You weren't supposed to see that. Yeah. That's interesting.
Em Schulz: So... Uh...
Christine Schiefer: These people need to get their shit together 'cause every left and right, they need backup plans. And then, oh no, he woke up like, fucking handle your shit.
Em Schulz: Their falling asleep technology is glitchy at best.
Christine Schiefer: They gotta figure it out!
Em Schulz: They need to put new batteries in their machines or something.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Have you tried turning it off and on?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, he says, how come I was able to get through the door? This thing looks shocked. Looks at him for a moment and takes pause and then looks up to the UFOs in the sky and tries to speak with its mouth. But what comes out, maybe the other aliens can understand it, but Philip did not know what was going on. Because what came out of his mouth was a garbled metallic rasp.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: And it didn't sound, it didn't make any sense. It was just sound emitting out of him. As this is still happening, Philip feels himself being pulled and floating again. And he's now being floated through his house. But while he's, and he even goes back through the glass, the jelly glass window. And as he's looking out of the window to see, he just wants to see for as long as he can.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: As he's floating away and into his bedroom, he looks out the window and he can still see it standing there, staring up at the ceiling and like this, his mouth open, making sound.
Christine Schiefer: With that horrible metallic grinding noise? Okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That like, I bet the sound is like fucking nails on chalkboard. Like that's what I'm imagining.
Em Schulz: Has to be.
Christine Schiefer: Like, like a fork and a fucking, whatchamacallit?
Em Schulz: Uh, garbage disposal.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Ugh!
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Has to be the worst sound. And to know that, like, they're just paused like that, it feels like the end of a skit and it's just like holding on for a little too long or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: It just feels, it feels very, very odd. So Philip then floats through his house... Uh, he ends up, umm, floating onto his bed, which just like happened to Ronald and all of a sudden, he can move again. And as he freaks out and he gets up, as soon as he gets up out of bed, he has a nose bleed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He later finds out that he now has three triangular marks behind his right ear, which if I heard this right in his interviews, they don't show up on camera. They've tried to take a bunch of pictures and they won't show up. Which is interesting. That feeds into your technology idea of maybe we're not supposed to be able to see that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That is so gross that you would be able to hide something from a camera. Like, what does that mean? That means so many... That has a lot of implications.
Em Schulz: And Ronald can also see the marks too. So there's that.
Christine Schiefer: What, can anyone else see them do we know?
Em Schulz: I wonder. I wonder. If not then I feel like a skeptic could use that very easily...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: Is like, oh, well they're twins protecting each other or something.
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: But they, they both can see it. And uh, he also said he has three marks on his right arm that burned. Umm, he also had continuous nosebleeds for a while after all this happened. But they, and he also had trouble walking. Umm, doctors...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh. It's all so upsetting.
Em Schulz: Doctors later discovered that there was actually something in his ear.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And he refused to have it messed with. I think he was like, I don't want you to accidentally turn something on. I don't... Or maybe I...
Christine Schiefer: Or like, if you take it out, then what? They're gonna do it all over again. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Then they have to drag me back up there. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, umm, and for this is a really odd part too. He said, I have no reason, I have no memory of anything that would allow me to feel so confident in this. But I have a very strong feeling that in the last year, whatever it was in my ear, has actually been removed. Umm, aka he had another abduction and it was removed. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] That's almost scarier that he just knows it without...
Em Schulz: Yeah. He said, I can't...
Christine Schiefer: That's really unsettling.
Em Schulz: I'd like to see him like, go to a doctor and get it like checked again and see if...
Christine Schiefer: Checked again.
Em Schulz: They see anything there anymore. But he said, I can't explain it, but there was a, a time later on where me and my brother both found marks on our necks.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: And after that I just had a knowing that my, the thing in my ear wasn't there anymore. So I think it's interesting, umm, first of all, that both of them woke up on the ship and couldn't be kept asleep...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, they were both dropped right into their beds. And I think it was interesting that the parallel of Ronald in the kitchen at the beginning of all of this, freezing up, looking at the ceiling and saying a bunch of garbled string of words.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Because their grandma did not die. And there was no earthquake, by the way. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. I forgot about that already.
Em Schulz: But for him to just say that it was just like...
Christine Schiefer: What a weird thought.
Em Schulz: It's almost like they were trying to tap into like our language and they just like had like a
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know, when you're, when you're learning to type, it'll just be a random sentence that you have to like type out or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like the cat, the brown fox jumped over the cat or...
Em Schulz: Over the lazy dog or something.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Whatever the fuck.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And, uh, and so I wonder if they were just like, they had like some sort of like sample sentence to like tap into our language or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like...
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: It's just the least alarming sentence ever. Grandma's gonna die and there's gonna be an earthquake. Let's try that one out for size.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Just for fun.
Em Schulz: Imagine if you're typing that one on, i-in second grade being like, uh, grandma's gonna die!
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. All of a sudden, the floppy disc that we learned to type on is like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The lazy dog and the fox. And now also grandma's gonna die.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what? Sounds like a bad horror movie.
Em Schulz: So, uh, but it's interesting that it parallels the, the gray at the end, looking up and saying a bunch of garbled stuff that we couldn't understand.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I... What if he was saying grandma's gonna die uh, there's gonna be an earthquake? Maybe that's like the code words. I dunno.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe that they're like, nobody would just say this. So that has to be the password for us between each other.
Christine Schiefer: It's a password. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But, but yeah. So it's, I wonder if they were tapping back into their own language before they left or something, or I don't know. One researcher actually thinks that this phenomenon was, umm, them trying to tap into our reality, or they were trying to intentionally scramble our reality so that way, they had more control over us or something like to throw us off.
Christine Schiefer: Eww! That's bad.
Em Schulz: Anyway, there's all that. And now the last sighting happened in 2016.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: Umm, so many years later. And this was April 8th. It was, uh, and this one's actually like pretty quick. I didn't, I feel like the information I got on this was nowhere near as in depth as the others...
Christine Schiefer: Huh.
Em Schulz: Umm, but it was in 2016. It was coming up on midnight, and the brothers were in the same car coming back from a birthday dinner with the rest of the family. They were the only two in the car though. And their niece who was driving either ahead or behind them saw these three objects in the sky.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm!
Em Schulz: And she called to tell them about it. But when she called to tell them they could already see these objects and they were already floating above them.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They're like, oh, don't worry, we fucking know. But thanks for the heads up.
Em Schulz: I feel like it's straight out of a movie of like, uh, yeah, don't worry. We figured it out. Like...
Christine Schiefer: And then it like zooms out and they're like up in the sky.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So the crafts were apparently, quote, "three white objects hovering 90 to 100 feet above them."
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And Philip said they were huge and we were amazed. Which is interesting that they're still amazed by this. You'd think, oh fuck, not again.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, like my first reaction would be panic. Not like awe.
Em Schulz: At this point, like, insert any textbook traumatic response.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, I, I'd be all of them.
Christine Schiefer: Fight flight fawn. Maybe that was the fawn. It was like, oh, what a cool spaceship you have. I love it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You're, you're beautiful. Please don't come near me.
Christine Schiefer: Don't hurt, hurt me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Despite all, and that was the whole thing that we know about that encounter.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Was just that they saw it together. I think they've, they've drawn a few diagrams to show people what it is they saw, but despite all these encounters, the Kinsella twins did not publicly discuss any of their, you know, experiences until recently the 2010s. Umm, partially out of fear of not being believed, especially because like I said earlier, they're very no nonsense. And they even say they can't explain what happened to them. Uh, but fun fact, one of the people who has helped them through all of this is actually the niece of Barney and Betty Hill. Who...
Christine Schiefer: No way!
Em Schulz: Is like one of them... I covered them a while ago, but they're one of the most famous, uh, alien abduction stories.
Christine Schiefer: They're Kentucky. Right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Where, can I ask if, you know, whether where, uh, Ronald and Philip lived?
Em Schulz: In the UK.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, I don't know the UK well enough to bravely say a place.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. No, I, I'm just curious. Yeah. I didn't realize what, uh, whether they were here or abroad.
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't know if they live here now or but at the time of their experiences, they were in the UK. Umm, and like I said earlier, they think their previous, there were previous experiences when they were kids that they're unaware of. Umm, and they wonder if their being twins is involved in their abductions. Especially because, fun fact, their abductions, their individual ones were seven years apart and they were born seven minutes apart.
Christine Schiefer: Eww! I don't know what it means, but I don't like it.
Em Schulz: That's what they said. They were like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know if that's a coincidence, but I hate it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, one way that they've gotten their story out is through writing and art. Umm, Ronald, especially with art, he draws the beings that he saw. Umm, and he actually, he's really good with like 3D modeling programs. And so he's actually been able to create like 3D models of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good for him.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So in theory...
Christine Schiefer: That's a good way to process it, I guess.
Em Schulz: Well also, like, if it's 3D, I feel like you can really get into the details of like what this thing looks like. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's not just like a stick figure. It's like, I could print this out and make it an action figure for you.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, I see his pores on this thing, you know?
Em Schulz: Exactly. Yeah. Umm, so he's gotten into art a lot and both of them have gotten into writing. They have a website. Umm, it's the called thekinsellatwins.com and they have like, easily like 20 books on there that they've written...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Either together or individually. Umm, and a lot of them are either about the experience or they are inspired off of the experience. They have a lot of like sci-fi books they've written now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and when asked about all this, they started sharing their podcast main... Or they started sharing their experience mainly on podcasts.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Umm, they also share their theories of what happened. They actually host a UK radio show called Twin Souls.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Cool.
Em Schulz: Ah, and I don't know if it's still, if they're still making new episodes, but, you know, worth the, the look. I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they also talk a lot about their research in ufology. Ufology. And so, umm, after all this happened, they really leaned into the wanting to know more. Umm, and it kind of became part of their whole future is just doing research uh on UFOs and aliens. And Philip said, "there are hundreds of thousands of people that have had their own unique experiences. And I kept wondering why, because there's no revelation from this. There's no clues as to their origins or where they come from."
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: "Or why they're here or what they're doing. So this is why I wanted to look at the subject matter outside the box, outside the normal framework, umm, where people assume a UFO is from another planet and is very physical in nature. I'm not saying they're not physical, but this led me into areas of psychic exploration, consciousness and also interdimensional hypotheses."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "I think we're dealing with something that's more than what Hollywood has led us to believe the phenomena is." So...
Christine Schiefer: Holy crap!
Em Schulz: So he thinks it, uh, I do like his outlook on like, he's very open-minded to anything is possible in terms of looking for answers...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Because, umm, he very much seems like, I think he said it in part of the interview where he was like, there's been decades of people being abducted and we, we assume that they're just from outer space, but we've made no big... There's no big milestones that have come out of our research assuming things like that. So maybe it's not from outer space.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting. Like let's try a new angle altogether. Wow.
Em Schulz: Maybe... Yes. And so he's very much, umm, he's very pro, any answer could be right. We have to look at everything.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: So he's even looked at if, uh, these aliens are part of afterlife and if they're, are you dealing with something from a.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: Something from another realm? Umm, he has wondered if they are like, they are able to manipulate time and space in a way that we can't. And so they jump timelines.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Maybe the same aliens from the '50s are the ones that are still here right now dealing with us instead of another generation of them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or maybe they're one collective consciousness or, umm, he also said that he realized later in life that he was a sensitive and that messed with him a lot because one, he was like, oh, maybe I, I inherited that from Grandma.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But... And then that makes you think, shit, did grandma have things going on...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: She didn't talk about 'cause she seemed real quick with that answer on...
Christine Schiefer: And I love that she's like, it's just fairies.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And maybe she had had her own stories.
Christine Schiefer: And that probably sucks for her too, because she's like, no, like I don't want my grandkids to go through this.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And and he also thought like, so maybe it came from Grandma or maybe this just, maybe I had it in me and it was never, you know, tapped that like.
Christine Schiefer: Activated.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then maybe it was activated as a result of the abductions.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. That's an interesting thought.
Em Schulz: Because there is a common theory that those who've been abducted are, quote, "Left with a residue of psychic phenomenon."
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Interesting.
Em Schulz: Which we've, we've heard that a million times of like, oh, someone gets abducted and all of a sudden, they have these weird senses.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Or they just feel like they're more in tuned with things and or they have a knowing about things.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And Philip said, uh, it's almost as if the force or intelligence behind this phenomena is when it rips through our space time continuum. And perhaps there's other alternative dimensions that are left open for a short period of time that seep through into us.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So he, well he's thinking about every possibility here. But it is interesting that like maybe if you're already crossing those boundaries, maybe other doors are open and you have access to things others don't.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I can see that, for sure. I mean, I feel like we've had stories like that where people, I mean you just said it, but like where people go through something like this and then suddenly, it's like, oh, they can see UFOs everywhere, or...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They have suddenly ESP and ooh.
Em Schulz: So they may, yeah. So a lot of his theories are that they may come from another planet, maybe they're connected to the afterlife or another realm we're unaware of. Maybe they jump timelines, maybe they're able to jump into our consciousness.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Maybe they're one consciousness, maybe they jump through our memories and try to manipulate us that way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But he did say, he's, he's very invested into the research because he thinks every area must be explored. So.
Christine Schiefer: I love that. Thorough.
Em Schulz: That is, that is the Kinsella twins and their UFO encounters.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit! So do you, does he feel like, do you know if he considers them to be malevolent or is that like unclear?
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't, I think in an interview I heard him say, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So it, it seems, I, I really, I don't know if he doesn't know, but...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm I know he did not like what they were doing to him up there.
Christine Schiefer: Right. I mean, I consider them fucking malevolent 'cause they are just taking children and doing "operations" on them. So...
Em Schulz: I mean, and he said openly, like, oh, I was R-worded by these things. And it was not...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He even said it was not benevolent and I did not want any of this.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So I think maybe, I don't know if he has to compartmentalize, like that was malevolent, but this part isn't. Or maybe all of it is.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. I mean...
Em Schulz: I have no idea. So...
Christine Schiefer: Dear Lord, that is terrifying.
Em Schulz: But they have, I thought originally 'cause... This is one of those stories where like I couldn't find anything, umm, like news-wise, or like, usually I try to go off of articles...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And this was one that I really had to go... It was pretty much fully podcast-based.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow.
Em Schulz: And... But they have, I mean, I thought, oh, I'm going to listen to all the interviews they've done and then I'll have all the information, but they've done like 50 podcasts and I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And every podcast is like an hour and a half long, minimum. So I was like, okay, well, this is the best I can do with the time we have. But...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: But the, the stories, a lot of their, umm, time on podcasts is them talking about the theories versus their stories. So...
Christine Schiefer: Do you... Wow. Do you, how do you spell Kins? Is it Kinsella?
Em Schulz: Yeah. K-I-N-S-E-L-L-A.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay. Umm, wow. Yeah. So I mean, I'm definitely gonna look into that, Kinsella Twin podcast. Umm, wow. Em...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I will warn you.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: I'll say real quick, I had to be really choosy with the, umm, podcasts I used for their interviews. A lot of people who hosted those podcasts seem to be, umm, maybe a little too deep in a rabbit hole that I don't wanna promote, if you know what I'm saying.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Umm.
Em Schulz: It felt a little, it felt like some, some of the people maybe are a little too, umm, extremist on the wrong side of history.
Christine Schiefer: I'm... Okay. So we're getting some QAnon vibes. Maybe?
Em Schulz: We're getting some QAnon vibes...
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Which I, I feel like that's such a, an easy trap to fall into if you're in the UFO world. 'Cause I definitely believe that there's something going on in outer space and I wanna believe people who have...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: Stories of abductions. But then I think you find yourself in, umm, some very interesting circles.
Christine Schiefer: There's like a cross over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So just warning you before you go into those podcasts, I do not promote, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Really too many of them. So...
Christine Schiefer: No, I I appreciate the heads up. I feel like that happens sometimes with, and you had talked about that in the QAnon episodes of that, that weird pipeline of like new age beliefs...
Em Schulz: The fringe...
Christine Schiefer: Into QAnon... Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To like extremist stuff. So that is a great point. And very freaky.
Em Schulz: Like there was... There was one interview they did, which I'm not, you know, poo-pooing on, you know, how they choose which interviews they go into or anything like that... I, that's not my business. But they, uh, there was one that I was trying to listen to and within five minutes they were talking about like, oh the Democrats and I was like, okay, well [laughter], this is, this is not the one I'm gonna be...
Christine Schiefer: What an enjoyable thing to listen to, while I sweep my floor and vacuum...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And do some chores.
Em Schulz: So the ones I got interviews from were ones that felt like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Whatever... Whatever version I could align best with, those were the ones I tried to go with, but...
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: Just warning you before you do your own deep dive.
Christine Schiefer: I absolutely appreciate the, uh, the heads up and I'm sure all of the other people do as well. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Before people think I like, enjoy these podcasts I was listening to, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Lord. Umm, Em, wow. That was a fucking doozy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I...
Christine Schiefer: You nailed it.
Em Schulz: I'm glad that you liked it because...
Christine Schiefer: You nailed it.
Em Schulz: I, I was really stressing, I was like, I wanna do something birthday and I thought for every, do you know how many people said I needed to do a 2.0 on the Hircine Shifter? I was like, I, my brain can't possibly...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Do that again.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I would've figured that out right away this time.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. I think you're too, uh, I'll have to do it in like a decade or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: One day when you're like, you're old and withered, and you're... Maybe your your mind...
Christine Schiefer: My brain is not where it used to be. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'll tell you all about the tales and the adventures of the Hircine Shifter and you'll be blown away. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'll be in the nursing home like, oh, it sounds like a beautiful creature.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I recently listened to a chunk of it again and you just were so wide-eye bushy-tailed.
Christine Schiefer: Dumb. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You were just like, I so align with this. I love this creature.
Christine Schiefer: I think the word is so, so dumb. [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, you were just, you were, 'cause I I, you were just like...
Christine Schiefer: Blissfully ignorant.
Em Schulz: You were just like, wow. How come I've never heard of this thing? It sounds so lovely. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. It's so weird how it wears Rothys and listens to Fall Out Boy. Hang on a second.
Em Schulz: I think, uh, it was the, the most endearing part in it was when I said like, oh, it gets lost all the time and drops all of its like pr-prized possessions or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God!
Em Schulz: And you were just like, oh my God, that sounds so much like me. If this were, if this were a person, I'd wanna be friends with them.
Christine Schiefer: I'm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's so embarrassing. And I also feel like the, the part that was embarrassing too is like, I was like so confused why you weren't more impressed about all the, I was like, "Em, are you hearing this? Like, it sounds just like me," and you were like, "Hmm. Yeah, I guess so." And you kept going and I was like, how is, how are you not reacting? Like, this is so crazy.
Em Schulz: Well I had a plan. It got ruined, but I had a plan originally that I was going to, like, if I, if I gave it away at all, then it was gonna like ruin the surprise later. Whereas I told more of the hints, it was supposed to like become more of an aha moment.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And there was, there was one of the lines, I was gonna say something where like, that was when I kind of started hinting that I was in on it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it all got ruined. So I like didn't know... I didn't know how to keep it together. But anyway...
Christine Schiefer: It was hard. It was hard. Umm.
Em Schulz: It was a good time.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Em, you really nailed it. And I'm, uh, I'm so proud of you. Good job.
Em Schulz: Well, I'm excited. You said this is also birthday themed, so I'm, I'm ready.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a special birthday gift for you. Umm, I, today, am nervous, my palms are sweating.
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: I'm covering a story about a family called the Duggars.
Em Schulz: Aaaaaah! Oh my God. Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: I told Molly Anne our researcher months ago like, this is the episode that is coming out on our birthday, at on our birth... Both of our birthdays. I need to do this. So like please, can we arrange for it to... So while Molly Anne was working on the notes and like some of the research, I was like, deep diving on YouTube and all these channels and trying to learn everything. And I know for a fact I will probably have about 0.01% of any knowledge that you have. So I told Molly Anne like, let's leave plenty of room for Em to like [laughter] fill us in on the additional...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's very lovely because in my head, I was just having like a deep heart to heart with myself, and like...
Christine Schiefer: No, it's your birthday.
Em Schulz: I kept, I really was like, you need to make sure you keep your mouth fucking shut during this.
Christine Schiefer: No, this is a gift to you for your birthday. I want you to be as thoroughly involved [laughter] and the notes are not very, like they're, they're normal length, but I feel like there is any and all...
Em Schulz: Years.
Christine Schiefer: Openings for you to just kind of pop in and add your expertise. Umm, and I want you to...
Em Schulz: Wow. I'm sweating.
Christine Schiefer: Because I know there's stuff that like I only know on the peripheral and that you really have a better understanding of.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I, I'm like, I'm so, so I guess if you don't know this about Em as like just [laughter], if you're like, what is this weird present? That's the world's worst present. No. It's not because Em has an affinity for the Duggar family media presence? I don't know, I don't know the right way to put it.
Em Schulz: This is where I remind people again, I do not condone them. I do not support them. I do not give money to even watch the episodes or anything like that. I just happen to be, I just have this sick fascination with trying to understand... It came from, so I, I started when umm, started watching them when I was like in college and it wasn't even a concept of like Christianity and, and you know, fundamentalism and purity culture, no.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It really was just like, how does a family with 19 children operate?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Which I think is what drew a lot of people in.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And eventually I just watched so much of it, I got invested in the lives of all these kids.
Christine Schiefer: Attached to the children. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And so now I'm just, and as things are coming out and like, 'cause there's, they've had a bunch of scandals and like, there's all these, not all of them, but a few children have like started to leave the family or they don't say that, but they're slowly stepping aside and kind of telling their version of what's going on...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I'm just like, I'm, we all know I love drama. So I have been invested in for quite some time.
Christine Schiefer: It really is like the perfect crossover. I mean, and I, I will say, I feel that I was unfairly critical of your interest in this family because I just, I will be the first to admit I didn't really get it. Like I didn't, I was like, what? They just go to church and you watch them be like hateful toward queer people... Like I don't get it. But after doing all this research and like, you know, learning about how the show was framed and like how the kids have grown, and like, like I get it. I do get it. I get it.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I watch horrible shows like true crime shows all the time because no, I don't condone what's going on, but it's like a fascinating insight into humanity. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It really is.
Christine Schiefer: And this, this is probably my...
Em Schulz: Well that's the, hey, that's the gift right there is just the...
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And I apologize for, for ever critiquing you. And I I didn't cri... I'd critique you in a jokey way, but like still, I was very like, what's wrong with you? But no, I, I, listen, I take it back and like, I guess this is my point, umm, on my birthday to announce that I've been watching a lot of Vanderpump Rules [laughter], umm, which is something I swore I would never do. And I would say, I don't understand why all these people from different walks of life in my life, Renee, Eva, my, my neighbor Anne, like all love the show. And so finally, I was like, okay, there are enough pe... Different people.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Who watch this, that there must be something to it. Started watching it. I got two episodes in and I was like, this is such a waste of my fucking time and life. This is such trash. Suddenly, it was three o'clock in the morning, I'd finished the entire first season in one night, and I was like, uh-oh, I'm in it now. [laughter] And I'm currently.
Em Schulz: Eventually...
Christine Schiefer: On season five.
Em Schulz: Girl...
Christine Schiefer: And this was like a couple weeks ago, [laughter], so it's sick. Okay. And, and I feel like I have a lot of backtracking to do here. Walking back some of my like kind of judgment on people's tastes in TV, which like, uh you know, it wasn't meant to be harsh ever, but I just... I think I just didn't get it. And now I'm like...
Em Schulz: It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I get it. You know.
Em Schulz: It ha... Uh, something, eventually something bites each of us.
Christine Schiefer: It clicked.
Em Schulz: With the... With the reality shows. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It fucking clicked. And I'm like, I don't know what, what this means for me in the future, where I'm gonna go and develop from here in my relationship with shitty trash TV. But, you know, I'm, uh, I'm thriving and I'm trying my best.
Em Schulz: Yep, yep. Yep, yep.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway. This is a story about the Duggars.
Em Schulz: Ah! Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I'm really nervous because like, this is your fucking expertise, so please.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Jump in if there's a correction. Umm, if there's like oh, a crazy fun fact that I totally missed, uh, just let me know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I do wanna say going into this before anyone judges me, I just wanna say if I sound excited, it is not because again, I do not, I'm only excited because we're now finally talking about something I like, have like a dirty little interest in. Not...
Christine Schiefer: No, I mean, it's like, it's a true crime show. So it's like, you know, you get excited about a story because it's like.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow, this is something I know about and this is something I can discuss and like, give insight.
Em Schulz: It's just like... And it's also, it's been a show that's been on since like the early 2000s.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So it's been years of just like being in the know of this family. So if I sound excited, I swear to God. Like, I, I do not like this family, I just like this family. You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: I like totally, totally, totally get it. Yes. Umm, and I...
Em Schulz: Okay, okay. Just before people think I'm like against the right side of history and all that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I'm glad that you said that 'cause I feel like maybe somebody didn't need to hear that. Umm, but yeah. So I mean, without further ado, let's just jump right in. So the way that, uh, I'm gonna approach this is from kind of the early days of this family.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And how things kind of developed. Umm, so we'll start with good old Jim Bob, uh, Every time I hear that name I'm like, that can't be, that can't be real.
Em Schulz: It never, it never gets good. Just so we're clear.
Christine Schiefer: It never gets good. Okay, great. So, Jim Bob Duggar was born in 1965 to Jimmy Lee and Mary Duggar in Springdale, Arkansas. He was their second child with an older sister. And we don't know too much. I say we don't know too much. Maybe Em has some deep insight, but we don't know too much about his childhood. It's a little vague on the details. Umm, but his father was apparently so bad at handling money in the family that his mom once had to cook decorative rice, like from a decoration to feed the kids.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and so, you know, obviously a very traumatic situation. And he sought refuge in community in his local Baptist church. And that is where he was introduced to the religion and, or I guess to religion, in general. And that is, uh, when he became extremely active as a member in his local church.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When Jim Bob was 17, he met 16-year-old Michelle Ruark?
Em Schulz: Ruark.
Christine Schiefer: Ruark, Ruark, while he was walking door to door with a friend, uh, just kind of visiting potential new church, uh, con-converts, I don't know, like trying to bring the word of Jesus to the neighbors, I guess. [laughter] And Michelle herself didn't come from a particularly religious home, but, uh, she had recently chosen to convert to the Baptist church, aka she'd been saved. So Jim Bob went to her house to invite her to Sunday school and was instantly taken by her. Uh, as soon as he left her house, he prayed, Lord, I would love to be her spiritual leader. Can she be mine?
Em Schulz: Vomitus. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Vomitus!
Em Schulz: And he, it is funny in interviews because he'll say like, it was love at first sight. And then in her interviews she'll be like, "I didn't remember him." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Literally the next bullet, awkwardly in an interview, Michelle admits she doesn't even remember their first meeting.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So clearly, he did not have quite the most striking effect that she had on him.
Em Schulz: Haha Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's okay. It happens. Umm, but luckily, for Jim Bob, Michelle applied for a position at the yogurt shop that Jim Bob's mother managed.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So this was totally by chance, and he told his mom to please give Michelle the job. And that way they had like a, more of a connection now, and they started hanging out. And it was one night after a four-hour long conversation about the Bible that they started officially dating 'cause what could be more romantic than that?
Em Schulz: Hah. I can't think of a single thing, I'm gonna tell Allison we have to start over.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Be like, this is, we're doing a refresh. Let's start from square one. Get your Bible out.
Em Schulz: [Laughs] Start again... Genesis page one.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God! Jim Bob and Michelle were married in July of 1984. This was months before Michelle even turned 18. So she was still a youngin. And this is where the Duggar story, the Duggar family story, I should say, as we know it truly began.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, the Duggars kicked off their marriage working in real estate, and they invested in properties to make money. And on March 3rd, 1988, they had their first child, a beautiful baby boy whom they named Joshua James Duggar, aka Josh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Aka...
Em Schulz: The villain...
Christine Schiefer: Trash.
Em Schulz: Of the story.
Christine Schiefer: Trash. So Michelle used birth control between pregnancies because they were trying to plan when they would be ready for their second child. Uh, unfortunately her second pregnancy ended in a miscarriage. And so, the couple consulted a doctor who told them interestingly, that using birth control can cause miscarriages. Uh, and I would just like to take this moment to, uh.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Explain to everyone, there is absolutely zero empirical evidence to suggest that birth control causes miscarriages, umm, or that taking it in between pregnancies has any effect whatsoever. Uh, so Michelle, I guess, heeded the words of this doctor and quit using birth control. So in 1990, she then gave birth to her twins. Do you know the twins' names?
Em Schulz: Oh, come on now... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I, I'm trying to do like a fun pop quiz, but I also don't wanna just keep putting you on the spot.
Em Schulz: Oh, no. I could, I could run through all 19 if you want, but it's Jana and John-David, and I will say they, umm.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But, uh, so she actually uses that as part of her testimony. I don't know if you get to that of like why they had so many kids because she felt so guilty about the miscarriage.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And thank... And blaming birth control for it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And uh, and so that was when they decided that they were going to trust the Lord with how many children they would be having.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And so then because they committed their life to never using any form of birth control again, they think that God blessed them with twins to make up for the lost baby.
Christine Schiefer: Yup. That's right. Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay. Just to, just to give more clarity on like why the twins were such a magical experience for them.
Christine Schiefer: Nailed it. Nailed it. So they took the twins, like you said, as a sign from God, that they would be rewarded and blessed with many children if they left family planning in capital H, His hands.
[cackles]
Em Schulz: Yes. Sorry, that's...
Christine Schiefer: Literal. Literal capital pronouns. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so they decided to forego any form of contraception at this point. Umm, and however many children they would have was up to God.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Delightful.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So from 1991 to 1997, they had six more children. Em, what are their names?
Em Schulz: You want just the first six? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So we have the first two, uh, right. Joshua...
Em Schulz: We have three. Josh... Josh, Jana and John-David.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah the twins. Okay.
Em Schulz: And then they had the other three are, uh, it's, I can only rattle them off from the beginning.
Christine Schiefer: Why don't you do the whole thing? Maybe.
Em Schulz: Josh, Jana, John-David, Jill, Jessa, Jinger, Joseph, Josiah, [laughter] so embarrassing... Josh, Jana, John-David, Jill, Jessa, Jinger, Joseph, Josiah, Joy-Anna, Jedidiah, Je-Jeremiah, Jason, James, Justin, J... Oh my God, I've never gotten to do this in real time... Jason, James, Justin, Jackson, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordyn, Josie.
Christine Schiefer: That's insane.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I always said I could fire them off, umm, immediately without laughter in the middle, but I am realizing how ashamed I am at the same time. So...
Christine Schiefer: No, don't be ashamed. You were put on the spot. Uh, and if any.
Em Schulz: But.
Christine Schiefer: Anyone should be ashamed... It's not you in any of these scenarios, so don't worry.
Em Schulz: I don't believe you. But the first six, if you were asking it was Josh, Jana, John-David, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger with a J, which is Christine's favorite of them all. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It kills me. When Em first told me Jinger and I went, oh, but Jinger, and Em goes, "Oh no, it's Jinger with a J." And I went, that can't be real. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Because obviously, I don't know if you've caught on, folks, but all of the kids' names start with J...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's... cool.
Em Schulz: It's... Well, So they started with Josh and then they accidentally liked Jana and John-David. So by the fourth kid, they were like, well, we can't...
Christine Schiefer: We can't give up now.
Em Schulz: Not use J and they kept just having kids and they're like, ah, shit, we keep... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But also, like, you and I have talked about this, I think with Eva too, like there are so many names that start with J that are more...
Em Schulz: That they didn't use.
Christine Schiefer: Normal than Jinger. Like...
Em Schulz: Oh, they, like, they could have used like, uh, like Julia or something.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like, there's so many options that are actual names that start with J.
Em Schulz: They're... On Reddit, every now and then, there's a, uh, a forum of like, what are the J names that they missed? And it's like.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Normal names like Jake, Joel, like Jacob is even like, isn't that like a religious name or something?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it is a biblical name. So they're, they're...
Em Schulz: Jesus. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Can you imagine? Somebody would say Jesus. And they'd be like, that's not correct.
Em Schulz: Hahahah. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I think that probably was too far for them.
Em Schulz: Are they... Jezebel? No, I don't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Jezebel, I think probably is...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: The archnemesis of this family.
Em Schulz: They did have a, uh, 20th who was, umm, they ended up losing that baby, but...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Uh, they also went with the name Jubilee. So just to show that, like they really were just neglecting a lot of J names that are used normally. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Jubilee, I mean, I guess at least it's a word.
Em Schulz: It is a word. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And Jinger is a name, but also spelled wrong. [laughter] So, you know, they're sort of almost there, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: But even on the 20th kid, they were, they were testing the waters.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They were really pushing it. And you know what, whatever, it's none of my business. But, uh, I just always thought that was such a wild fun fact. Jinger with a J.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so in 1998, Jedidiah Robert and Jeremiah Robert...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Became their second set of twins. So now they are at nine children.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: By 1998, Michelle and Jim Bob subscribed to the Quiverfull Movement.
Em Schulz: That was 11 kids by 1998.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Doesn't matter. Just, just to tell you, it's 11... It was 11 kids under 10 or something. It was something crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Molly Anne, you're fired. No, I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: Yeah [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I'm clearly just bad at math.
Em Schulz: You're good.
Christine Schiefer: So Jedidiah Robert and Jeremiah Robert, that was their second set of twins.
Em Schulz: After nine children. So they had 10 and 11.
Christine Schiefer: So they had six, seven, eight... Okay. Six... Oh my God.
Em Schulz: They had Josh, Jana, John-David, Jill, Jessa, Jinger, Joseph, Josiah, Joy-Anna, Jedidiah, Jeremiah. 11.
Christine Schiefer: Got you. And that's 11.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I think maybe there was a confusion with the twins getting, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So Michelle and Jim Bob subscribed to something delightful called the Quiverfull Movement.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, which comes from a certain psalm. Do you know the psalm?
Em Schulz: I don't have it memorized, but, and I'm sure you have it written down.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: It's essentially that a, a man should keep his quiver full. And his, his quiver being essentially his... He should have a, a family.
Christine Schiefer: His pee... His pee-pee.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm his, his quiver full. He should have a, like as many arrows as you can in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And essentially you're building your army of God with as many children as you can have.
Christine Schiefer: That's right, Yeah. So it's Psalm 127, and it goes as follows, "Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Woof.
Christine Schiefer: So the goal of the Protestant strictly anti-birth control Quiverfull Movement is essentially to have and raise as many conservative Christian children as possible to represent their views in what some call a raging culture war. So kind of hinting at what you said of like creating God's army.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, under your own roof to like fight back against, uh, cu-cultural, I don't know, developments that are not godly, I suppose.
Em Schulz: Right. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: According to an article on the Quiverfull website, marital fertility is the most important indicator of social health. If people are having babies outside of marriage or married people aren't having babies at all, society is in big trouble.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Not great. Not a good look.
Em Schulz: Not at all.
Christine Schiefer: Vicky Garrison, a former member of the movement, who now speaks out against it, says, quote, "The wife is obligated to provide sex to her husband on demand. Your body does not belong to you. And you are just required to submit to that." And that's just one of many of the very upsetting aspects of this "religion."
Em Schulz: So, I, I, I don't know if you'll get to this, I have a hunch you will, but in the most recent news of the Duggars is that one of the daughters has been coming out and talking about how she has stepped away from that in-intensity of, uh, conservative Christianity...
Christine Schiefer: Is it Jinger?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. With a J?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Jinger with a J. [laughter] And...
Christine Schiefer: I love, I knew I loved her from the moment you said her name to me years ago. I was like, that one's gonna go places.
Em Schulz: Oh. Do you talk about Free Jinger at all?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is, the problem is like, I was, I felt so bad, but I was like, Molly Anne, like we couldn't make this a multi-parter, but I feel like...
Em Schulz: It's... It's okay. So.
Christine Schiefer: We didn't know how to address it, so we've kind of had to condense it a lot.
Em Schulz: That's okay. So I'm just trying to make sure I'm respectful and not totally screaming over you the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: No, take, take... Listen. It's your day.
Em Schulz: Well, it's literally your day. My day was yesterday when this comes out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But listen, it's about, it's a, it's a belated birthday gift.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Well, so free... So there was, years ago, when the, all the kids were still kids and they hadn't grown up and had their own families, they, uh, would go to a lot of like, press junkets or they would like be asked to go on the news and promote something. And so they would go to New York every now and then to do like Good Morning America or something.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And during their show, which I know you'll get to eventually, 'cause they had a reality show, uh, they filmed Jinger, or they filmed all the kids saying like, oh, what do you think of New York? 'cause it's so different from rural conservative Christian Arkansas.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: What do you think of the big city? And all of them were like, "I prefer the country, I prefer the country." And Jinger was like, "I kind of like the city." And she said something as vague and simple as that. And the world took it by storm and they...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Everyone was like Jinger wants out of the family.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: Like every, everyone was like, if anyone's gonna leave, it's gonna be Jinger just because of that...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, she's given, she's hinted at her dissatisfaction.
Em Schulz: So then there was this website that came out a long time ago and.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Is still often mentioned called freejinger.com.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Does this still exist? I'm going right now.
Em Schulz: Does it? I think it might still. Does it?
Christine Schiefer: Let me see. It's, uh, not looking good 'cause it's just kind of spinning on me.
Em Schulz: Freejinger...
Christine Schiefer: I spelled it right. I mean I spelled it...
Em Schulz: Freejinger.org.
Christine Schiefer: Oh dot.org. Oh, I'm so sorry. God forbid. Oh here it is!
Em Schulz: Sorry. [laughter] It should be dot gov at this point. It's literally the icon above is her family and then her running away.
Christine Schiefer: Running away. Also I love that, like, they put a suicide prevention lifeline right up top, which is awesome. Umm wow.
Em Schulz: They, and it's, it became... Originally it was like, now it's still a forum where they talk about the Quiverfull Movement and like how.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know, damaging that is, but so it became this whole thing because she simply was neutral to New York City. People just were like, she's the one that's gonna get away.
Christine Schiefer: She was also probably trying to be polite, like, oh, I think it's a nice town.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, holy shit!
Em Schulz: And ever since then, she's even had to like address free Jinger and been like, I, like I, and you know what, by the way, like the secret is that she ended up really liking New York. She... And ends up getting proposed to a New York one day.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: She says she wants to move to a city. All of her siblings knew she was like the city girl of them all. And now she lives in Los Angeles. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. See, I, yep. See, I knew there was something.
Em Schulz: But so, it's just a coincidence, but I'm sure there's a lot of people who think like, no, we knew from the beginning with Free Jinger.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah. I love it. Somebody was like, I fucking called it, and don't you forget it. I am the, uh, webmaster of freejinger.org. And I knew.
Em Schulz: Dot org.
Christine Schiefer: I knew what was gonna...
Em Schulz: Soon to be dot gov.
Christine Schiefer: Dot gov. And I knew, I knew what I was doing. Umm, so speaking of the Quiverfull Movement, uh, their official site also includes fact cheats about the danger of using contraceptives.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, because birth control pills prevent a fertilized embryo from implanting in "the mother's womb." Uh, and they believe that life begins at conception, at fertilization. Quiverfull considers birth control to be full stop, abortion.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And according to their site, uh, given the scale of these "silent abortions", based on the millions of women worldwide using various drugs and devices, uh, what we are considering here, this is according to their website, is truly a pharmaceutical holocaust...
Em Schulz: Oh, oof!
Christine Schiefer: Is how they refer to people using contraceptives.
Em Schulz: Damn!
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It, they equate it to having an abortion because you are preventing fertilization.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Makes, I mean, I understand the reference of it's like, oh, it's like a infant genocide.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Which is what they call abortion...
Em Schulz: Oof!
Christine Schiefer: Or pro, pro-choice movement. I mean, there's a lot of sticky and icky language around all this. Umm, very, very toxic.
Em Schulz: Well, so one of the reasons I mentioned Jinger early, and then I obviously went on a tangent, is, uh, because now that she's kind of, she's not fully deconstructing her faith, uh, she's still very much a conservative Christian, but just not part of that movement.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Okay.
Em Schulz: But she, but she has said, umm, like living in the fundamentalist, uh, Quiverfull Movement, now that she's stepping away and like kind of reinventing what she thinks the role of a woman should be. She was raised just thinking your whole job is to be a mother. Your whole job is to submit to your husband, and you need to be, uh, what do they say, joyfully available for him at...
Christine Schiefer: Eww!
Em Schulz: At all moments. But when you also, like, you don't believe in, uh, birth control, you're pretty much, your only option is to have as many children as possible.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Because you don't get to say no and you don't get to not be pregnant if it happens. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Uh, and she has, uh, there have been a few pe... Few of the siblings who now are team birth control and family planning and things like that. But she said that that was a big struggle for her 'cause her whole life, she was indoctrinated into thinking, I am gonna have as many children as possible, whether or not I like it. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Just wild.
Christine Schiefer: Does she have any children?
Em Schulz: She has two.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And she is, not to like, you know, question too much like someone's, you know, family life or anything like that. But she has openly said that they're using some sort of birth control. I don't know what type, it could just be like natural family planning.
Christine Schiefer: Family planning.
Em Schulz: But they, she said, umm, which doesn't sound like a big statement to most people, but people in that world.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: It's a huge statement where she has said like, I don't want a lot of children. And like, yeah, children are a blessing, but you're allowed to be grateful for just like, some blessings. And like, you don't need all of the blessings and like, you don't need abundance in blessings. So...
Christine Schiefer: And to have had like, the trauma of helping raise your siblings, I mean, we'll get into that, but like...
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, look, look, of course, you don't wanna repeat that and then live that out again in your own family.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She's like, I'm sure... She hasn't said it, but I'm sure she's thinking like, I already raised 19 kids. Like I'm done.
Christine Schiefer: Right literally.
Em Schulz: I'm done.
Christine Schiefer: Great point.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Great point. Sorry, I'm stress eating candy.
Em Schulz: That's okay. That's okay. I'm, I'm, wow. I'm just so excited about this topic. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so happy. I didn't want you to feel like I was like taking over your territory...
Em Schulz: No, please.
Christine Schiefer: So, right. So Quiverfull considers birth control to be abortion. They consider the use of contraceptives as a holocaust of.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Fetuses. Uh, the Duggar actually, for what it's worth, deny being part of the Quiverfull Movement...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Publicly.
Christine Schiefer: Publicly. But at the same time, on their official website, they reference Psalm 127 uh [laughter] about the fucking quiver full of children. And that was in response to a question about why they decided to have a big family. So if they're not in the Quiverfull Movement, they're at least creating their family based on that Bible verse. So, it's, it's a little confusing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it feels like they're not doing a good job of lying about it. Like it's literally on your website.
Em Schulz: I, yeah. I, I wonder when that got put on their website because I wonder if it was after the show got canceled and they didn't have to like really hide it anymore. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Maybe.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. Umm, likewise, fun fact, Quiverfull fully endorses the Duggars and even sells Duggar merchandise on their website, [laughter] which is like so embarrassing. It's also embarrassing that the Duggars are like, no, we're not part of that.
Em Schulz: Yeah right.
Christine Schiefer: And Quiverfull's like, we love our favorite supporters.
Em Schulz: They're our icons. They are our spokesperson. [laughs]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Like, again, they're not doing a very good job of hiding this, uh, affiliation.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So regardless of any official affiliation or non-affiliation, the Duglar, the Duggars did publicly model Quiverfull's extreme patriarchal beliefs to their children. So the Duggar girls grew up learning that it is God's will for them to serve the men in their lives, including their own brothers.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
Christine Schiefer: The girls were not allowed to wear pants, only skirts. Uh, it was their responsibility to dress modestly so they wouldn't cause men to stumble on the path to God.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And in one of their books, the Duggar said they used the code word. Do you know what it is?
Em Schulz: Nike!
Christine Schiefer: You're so smart, Em. I'm so proud of you. I knew you would just nail my little pop quiz. You're probably like, this is easy.
Em Schulz: [chuckles] This is the o... This is the only place where like I would dominate in trivia unfortunately.
Christine Schiefer: It's like those themes where they do like Harry Potter trivia, The Office trivia. Like, you need to get involved in some sort of Duggar trivia. 'Cause you'll probably nail it. [laughs]
Em Schulz: Some Quiverfull, Quiverfull, fundamentalist Christianity trivia.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, maybe they'll do that in LA and then I was like, actually that's probably not the right audience. [laughter] Oh boy. Umm, so the code word, Nike, as Em said, was used to warn the boys to look down at their shoes, if an attractive or a scantily clad, in their mind, uh, woman walked by.
Em Schulz: They had to do that a lot in New York City in that episode.
Christine Schiefer: I betcha. I betcha.
Em Schulz: Where If they were walking, 'cause there were billboards everywhere and there were people like with their shoulders showing, 'cause girls couldn't wear anything without sleeves.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so they, the girls or the parents would have to say Nike and all in... Like an alley line... They're all in like one line, and like walking down the street and all the boys are just looking at their shoes and like, just.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh!
Em Schulz: 'Cause they just can't look, ugh, I can't even get into it.
Christine Schiefer: It's really disturbing. Umm...
Em Schulz: By the way, in case you're wondering 'cause like, like even when they go swimming, they have to wear, like full clothes. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And I think they think that even like swim shorts are, umm, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Revealing.
Em Schulz: Are not modest enough for men. And so they would all go swimming... Like there's episodes, multiple episodes of them going to the beach in their jeans. Swimming in jeans.
Christine Schiefer: No! Swimming in jeans? No.
Em Schulz: Swimming in jeans at the beach.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And like it was bananas.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, that's too far.
Em Schulz: Like, yeah. All the patriarchy stuff like whatever, that's a normal day.
Christine Schiefer: Take it or leave it.
Em Schulz: Swimming in jeans...
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: At the beach.
Christine Schiefer: I, I've, I've no longer have any support of these people after that.
Em Schulz: Too much.
Christine Schiefer: So women and girls, if you haven't guessed, were responsible for men's reactions to their bodies.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: If a man makes unwanted sexual advances, well then why were you tempting him and what were you wearing?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On the other hand, if a... If a husband cheats on his wife, well then why were you not being tempting enough and why were you not pleasing or satisfying him in the bedroom?
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like a catch 22, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: It's all, it's never the men's fault, always the woman's fault.
Christine Schiefer: Right. So, in the Duggar world, girls are raised to fear and avoid sexuality until they're married, in which case they should suddenly be fully accessible at all times to their husbands.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In 1999, Jim Bob dove into politics and he became a member of the Arkansas House of Representatives. He was often gone for work leaving Michelle alone to homeschool their 11 children, which is.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like I saw in one video, someone was like, that's a, that's an entire classroom... Like of children.
Em Schulz: Of different ages. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, true. Yeah. So Michelle and Jim Bob relied on a highly structured buddy system to raise their kids. So each younger child would be assigned to an older sibling. And then that older sibling was almost solely responsible for all aspects of the younger sibling's daily care, everything from feeding and bathing to homeschooling. Like basically, it's parefin... Parentification of these children. Umm...
Em Schulz: They were called, it's called sister-momming.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: That's what they, that's like the, at least that's what Reddit calls it.
Christine Schiefer: The cutesy term.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, uh, it's that each of the sisters are becoming a mom and there's never any brother-daddying. So even if there's...
Christine Schiefer: A bro... Right.
Em Schulz: So even if there's like 10 older siblings and 10 younger siblings, the boys never have to worry about that. It's always the, the ones who are gonna end up being a mother anyway. So.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And this is like definitely a very, uh, it can be a form of abuse, neglect, uh, you know, when you are basically putting the pressure and responsibilities of a parent of an adult on a young child who has A, not consented to be part of this, but B, should not be having to do this labor of parenting their siblings.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like it's very toxic. Umm, and it can be very insidious. And in this case, I think it was.
Em Schulz: And it... And there was, umm, forever ago, there was an interview they did about the buddy system that basically as soon as one of the older kids, which they did not say older girls, but that's what they meant, umm, as soon as they were basically old enough to get themselves dressed, they would then be assigned a younger sibling to help them get dressed.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So it was like, it's not even like once you hit 14, high school age.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's like once you're, once you can put on your own fucking pants or I'm sorry, skirt, umm, [laughter] then you can help other kids.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's very insidious, very toxic... Umm, very abusive. It's just like scratching the surface of everything that's wrong, but already it's, it's big, big red flags.
Em Schulz: And, and I do wanna, umm, say one last thing too, which is important to future parts of the story that you're gonna tell is you were saying that, umm, as you know, the, a lot of times, the kids are not even taught any version of sexual education. Umm, a lot of them don't even learn until their wedding day.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: And a lot of times it's just they're the men because they're supposed to be able to handle it. Or, and I'm sure they hear about it, you know, through some other like sources, through friends or whatever and they've heard of it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But the women are really kept in the fucking dark pretty much until their wedding day, if at all. And there have been a few people that have come forward and said that like, I was once part of this, you know, community and I was expected to get married pretty much as soon as I turned 18 and I didn't know anything about sex.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And a lot of them, a lot of them have equated their wedding night to being S-A-ed because they had no idea what was coming.
Christine Schiefer: Well, Of course.
Em Schulz: And and they were also told their whole life, don't even think about that part of your body. Don't be tempted by...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, absolutely. I mean it's traumatic.
Em Schulz: Even, even, uh, Jinger now says like, I felt guilty for having crushes on guys 'cause I felt like I was giving part of myself away.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: To someone before I was supposed to. So you're basically told, don't be interested. Boom! Be interested. Hey, it's your wedding night and you've never heard about sex, and this is what's gonna happen now. And so it's just very traumatizing.
Christine Schiefer: It's... It is.
Em Schulz: And... It uh, it is.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Very traumatizing.
Christine Schiefer: It's you, I mean, it's abusive to just like send your children into a situation where they know nothing about sex, but they just have to comply.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. After being told forever, don't ever let anybody think of you in that way, or touch you or do anything like that. And so...
Christine Schiefer: The power dynamic is so fucked, like in a relationship...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like that where your partner knows, your husband knows at least the basics about sex, you know nothing, but you just have to go along with it, without any knowledge or consent. It's upsetting.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And do you, do you mention the, like their dating etiquette at all?
Christine Schiefer: No. Well, a little bit. Umm, but maybe when I get there you can.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Expand, because I've heard some stuff from you that, uh, I did not put in the notes that I think I.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You'll be able to like, add to clarify. Umm, so anyway, all the kids are expected to raise the younger siblings and they're kind of like buddied up, and uh, you know, day in, day out, this is how they've created this structure in the family. So, as far as school goes, uh, the kids were homeschooled and the Duggars followed a curriculum from the Advanced Training Institute, ATI. And ATI is run by a Christian nonprofit group and it's founder, Bill Gothard is a literal piece of shit. Like...
Em Schulz: I'm, I'm silently nodding 'cause I'm trying to keep my mouth shut, but yes, you're right.
Christine Schiefer: He is a fucking piece of work. I mean, let's just put it this way. He ended up resigning in 2014 after, uh, decades...
Em Schulz: Over 30. Oh...
Christine Schiefer: What? Over 30, uh, allegations, accusations came to light about sexual harassment, sexual assault, uh, as one YouTuber put it, uh, everything from the bad to the really fucking bad. Like there was just such a range. I don't know that, more detail than that, do you?
Em Schulz: Umm, well, yeah. So it was at least 30 women who had come forward and just from being...
Christine Schiefer: Some underage too.
Em Schulz: Some underage, a lot of people have said that he always gave really fucking creepy vibes.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And, umm, it was, so I don't think Jim Bob himself was ever involved in like the board of...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So ATI is the, umm, curriculum I think used for the IBLP. Do you talk about IBLP?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay. So that's like, it's essentially Jinger is being very, umm, she's been doing a press tour recently where she's answering questions about her time in the faith and she keeps saying like, oh, it's cult-like, but I wouldn't call it a cult. And it's like, girl, you're just trying to protect your family. It's a cult. It's very bad.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah. I mean, yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, I I don't think she had, has the heart to say it, but, umm, I might, so, [laughter] like, but, uh, Bill Gothard was essentially their leader and, uh, it was very disturbing. And he would hire, umm, any, anyone who was very heavy in the faith. A lot of them were either on the board or they had homeschool conferences that they would do every year. And he, it even felt like he was, umm, grooming a lot of the younger children to eventually not realize that he was harming them. Umm, there's...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, just the fact that there were 30 allegations...
Em Schulz: That's just who came forward.
Christine Schiefer: That came... That came to light. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, but he's... And also he was, the irony of all of it is that, so he wrote a lot of the, umm, foundations of Christianity that he... That the Duggars...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yes.
Em Schulz: Totally followed. Umm, especially like when it came to...
Christine Schiefer: I'm getting, I'm getting into the, the specific curriculum.
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. Okay. Go, go, go, Go.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't, I don't want to, I don't wanna make sure I miss, I don't want you to miss, miss something.
Em Schulz: Just that he, uh, he, he basically created all the rules outside of normal biblical Christianity.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: That they followed and he didn't even have a wife or kids and was deciding all these things about relationships and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And I actually had incidentally, as we were talking about him, pulled up the IBLP, like website and they have like a Bill Gothard, like our leader, you know, bio.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They, even though he resigned, it was like more of like a, a PR stu... Like a PR move to leave.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah yeah.
Em Schulz: But they still all love him and respect him.
Christine Schiefer: They like, he really has like a glowing review here. Umm, and it says, in order to focus completely on the Lord and the life work God has given him, Bill never married. And it's like, okay. But then he raped a bunch of people and assaulted underage girls but...
Em Schulz: And he also told thousands and thousands of people like how to have a relationship, but he never had one.
Christine Schiefer: How to, How to properly treat their marriage and their children even though he had neither, so... Yeah, you're right, there... There's a lot of fucking hypocrisy is like the least, like I wish there were a bigger word for hypo-hypocrisy, like extreme.
Em Schulz: Yeah. He really, he came out during like sex, drugs and rock and roll and all that.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And so I think he was away for a lot of conservative families to think they were saving their children.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: By putting them in like the most restrictive.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Limited space possible.
Christine Schiefer: Uh what's the word? Uh, sheltered.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like extremely avoidant of, of any culture.
Em Schulz: But he, and also he, like his beliefs were fucking crazy. They had nothing to do with the Bible. Like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: He would take a verse and he would just totally warp it into like his own personal opinion and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And people just ride it. They just ride it out.
Christine Schiefer: And that was like one of the things, I saw an interview with Jinger where she said basically none of this stuff that he got was even in the Bible. Like he would just make up his own kind of rules to follow. And like you said, people ate it up, like they were like, well this is how we're gonna raise our children. Umm, which is very unfortunate 'cause I'll get into the actual curriculum here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So the ATI curricula includes lessons for families to guide them through any religious or moral conflicts they might face. So it's sort of like a, a help, self-help book for, for Christian families. Umm, in the late '90s, the ATI distributed an alarming lesson plan in its curriculum called Lessons from Moral Failures as a Family. And here is just a fun little, uh, synopsis of this lesson plan. The lesson plan provided the following scenario. "Social workers tell a couple that their oldest son was caught sexually abusing his younger siblings. No legal action is taken. Instead, the son repents for the sin and prays for forgiveness. Then he discusses what led to his sin so the family can understand how they failed him and how they can do better in the future to keep him from stumbling," so to speak.
Christine Schiefer: "And when he kind of gives his reasoning for why this happened, he blames immodesty in the home for the abuse that he committed." He wrote, "It was not uncommon for my younger siblings to come out of their baths naked or with a towel, a different lifestyle with more modesty might have prevented what happened."
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I mean it's insane. Uh, he also says his sisters didn't behave appropriately in their dresses. Finally, he says his mother, a nurse, was too casual about the human body and didn't properly teach her children that men see bodies from a very sexual point of view. So this lesson plan basically told parents, and this was just like a made up thing, like conundrum that you might face...
Em Schulz: A hypothetical.
Christine Schiefer: What did you call it?
Em Schulz: A hypothetical.
Christine Schiefer: A hypothetical, exactly, exactly. Umm and so the lesson plan basically told parents that to avoid sexual abuse among their children, daughters should be modest at all times, and boys should not ever be exposed to naked bodies, even changing diapers could lead to temptation, which is like so sickening.
Em Schulz: Mm. Yup and just another way...
Christine Schiefer: Diapers?
Em Schulz: And just another way to say that, oh, well, women need to do everything with a baby instead of the man.
Christine Schiefer: True, yes, true. Like what, do you want him to have impure thoughts? No, well then why don't you change the diapers so he doesn't have to?
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So in the end, as we can probably all gather, everyone was to blame for this kind of abuse, except the abuser, and the ATI also released a lesson plan called Counseling Abuse, which was meant to guide victims of abuse. And the lesson suggested that sexual abuse can be... This is so upsetting. And just, I mean you know.
Em Schulz: I I know what you're gonna say...
Christine Schiefer: There's a blanket trigger warning you do.
Em Schulz: I'm pretty sure, yeah, go... I think I know what you're gonna say.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, uh just trigger warning for me, you know, I mean this whole episode really, or this whole section, but the lesson suggested sexual abuse can be considered a moral vaccination.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Founder Bill Gothard used an example of a woman who used to struggle with sexual thoughts and desires, one day, however, she was raped. And afterward, she no longer wanted to have sex with anyone or even think about sex at all, so this rape was a successful moral vaccination that protected her from lust.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: So basically, the idea is, well, maybe it was good for them...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Like, like what?
Em Schulz: First of all... I know. I know. I know. And this is where my like, again, sick fascination comes in with this, 'cause I'm like, how can people believe this shit? Like how do...
Christine Schiefer: How could, how...
Em Schulz: And this is where, again, like Jinger is currently like, oh, it's cult-like, it's like, are you fucking kidding me? Like your leader thinks this is okay...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And there's thousands of families who believe this, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, about their own children, like young children, young girls being like, well, it's their fault that they got out of the bath tub with a towel on.
Em Schulz: I mean, the, the, I mean, and also like the, the massive lack of critical thinking of like, oh, you want... Like they think it's a shock that all of a sudden, this victim of...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: A very intense rape, all of a sudden doesn't want to have sex anymore.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, wow, it worked!
Em Schulz: It's like, well, it's like well she... Duh. She got... Oh my God, it's like and also like...
Christine Schiefer: But it's a good consequence.
Em Schulz: Ugh! Yeah, it's foul, so anyway, that's why I can't stop reading about the fucking family 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: There's always something like this.
Christine Schiefer: I get it. It's fascinating. The lesson plan also explained that the abuse victim might be guilty of their own failings. For example, if they fail to report their abuse and then the abuser went on to abuse other people, they were responsible, the previous victim, for letting it happen again to other people.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Right, which is like, oh, okay. Not the person doing it. Got it.
Em Schulz: Yup makes total sense, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, makes total sense. So although there is no real proof that the Duggars specifically use these lesson plans, umm the family was a strong supporter of ATI for many years, they did use their lesson plans, they attended annual ATI conferences.
Em Schulz: Still do, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Still do, okay. And promoted ATI curriculum on their website, in in their other media, so we can pretty much assume that this was part of their learning process and teaching. Umm.
Em Schulz: They also have on their umm on the... I don't know if it's the ATI website or the IBLP website. But their... On, in their shop, you can buy pamphlets. I have not bought them, I've seen the samples though, because I I just had, had to know, they have like pamphlets on like how to be a good husband, how to be a good wife, and it's literally just like a listicle and each one is just worse than the last...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: The, the things that you have to do to be a good wife. It's awful.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, it's... It's sick. It's really sick. So again, we're not a 100% sure that they had those specific lesson plans, but we can kinda guess that probably they did 'cause they also had the same beliefs.
Em Schulz: Jinger, just so we're clear, they were very close with Bill Gothard and Jinger has said he felt like a grandfather to her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: So just to give you an idea of them saying they...
Christine Schiefer: How... Close...
Em Schulz: How close they... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay. I didn't know that. So the ATI's approach to addressing sexual abuse and incest shed some disturbing light on the way the Duggars uh, spoiler alert, would eventually handle their own intra-family...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Incidents.
Em Schulz: Yup.
Christine Schiefer: Among the Duggars' more typical fundamentalist Christian rules were no TV, no alcohol and no tattoos, and were there more weird ones? Like couldn't they like not... They had to do side hug... And...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, they also, they weren't allowed have music with drums, because drums...
Christine Schiefer: Oh the drums.
Em Schulz: Drums would like summon the devil or something.
Christine Schiefer: I was cracking up, it was like, drums are the devil's instrument, like what?
Em Schulz: Play things, yeah. Are they, I mean even like... Uh so the ones that you're probably wanting to hear the most are like the etiquette, the dating etiquette, where like they would all save their kiss for their wedding day, they weren't allowed to like hold hands until they were engaged, they would... At best, if you were courting somebody and you were allowed to have any physical contact, you could have a three-second side hug, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, sexy.
Em Schulz: And you couldn't even hold hands, I guess, when you were praying together, there had to be somebody else between you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And so like there wasn't any temptation umm and...
Christine Schiefer: What about the no Coca Colas, is that them or a different family?
Em Schulz: That, that's the Plaths, that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which are also from a a fundamentalist Christian group.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: I don't know if it's IBLP, but probably umm... But they were... The Duggars did have soda though, but umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But they also had... And this was more Bill Gothard's thing, but I mean they, I'm sure they followed it to some degree, that like they had to be really intentional with everything they had in their house, so if you ever look at their house, there's like a bunch of like decals of scripture all over the walls and like...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Umm really like, you know, not suggestive things, but Jinger even tells the story now, that she's like coming out with all of this, she said that like Bill Gothard would always tell this story about how umm this woman had a picture of like a ship in her house, and she really liked the picture of this ship, and it was out in the ocean, and because she liked it, she just hung it up on the wall, but then having that picture in their house for their entire life, her children were influenced to wanna go out and be in... Work at sea and work on ships, and because this one picture influenced them, they loved the picture.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So they wanted to go work it... Out in the ocean, and eventually all three of them, or I think there was like three sons, they all became sailors and they died in a shipwreck, and it was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God!
Em Schulz: And it was her fault that they died because she wasn't careful about what influences she brought into the house.
Christine Schiefer: That's like, I mean Jinger was also saying that she would be so afraid of driving in a car and uh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Music coming on that didn't fit like this family standard of what you're allowed to listen to... And she's like, I would hear drum music, and she said, drums, even in Christian songs, like were not allowed.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Even like the new age-y Christian pop and stuff.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh Christian rock. And she said, she... The story that she was told was that a young boy, in one of these lesson plans, was listening to some rock and roll or like some modern music with drums and died in a car accident because of it...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like what? Like you're putting this in children's minds and psyches?
Em Schulz: Oh one of her big things that she's talking about now in her whole little tour is that umm, that she just like lived in constant par- uh paranoia...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And constant fear that God was gonna kill her because of something she didn't even know she had done wrong.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: Because there was rock music playing in another room and she was unaware of it, but it was close enough, she might die instantly, so like...
Christine Schiefer: That's traumatic.
Em Schulz: Truly traumatic. She's like 30 years old and now finally like becoming her own person. But like...
Christine Schiefer: But still probably has that lingering fear from childhood.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But so, uh yeah, a lot of the things that they taught the family was all the way down to like, you have to be careful of every influence you bring into your house, and you know, you can't, kiss on your, kiss on your wedding day, but you can't do anything else, you can't even know about sex. I mean it's just, it's very, very gross.
Christine Schiefer: It's so controlling, but in like the weirdest, creepiest specific way.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And on like every level, I mean it's just... I mean, it's full-on abuse, it's it's very upsetting.
Em Schulz: I mean they weren't even allowed to have internet, their phones... This is another thing where it was like patriarchal, and I'm sure Jim Bob thought he was doing the right thing...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But like wow, talk about control. He had trackers on all their phones to see like what they were doing on the internet.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Lord.
Em Schulz: So like he, he could see whoever they were texting. If you were dating somebody, umm you, like he would... It was a group chat with the parents.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So like it was... Ugh, God.
Christine Schiefer: I have that coming up too.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Fun. So Michelle, for what it's worth, was running a far different household than the one that she had grown up in, which was secular, and she recalls some unimaginable freedoms from her own childhood, like wearing pants... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Being a... She was a high school cheerleader.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, high school cheerleader, wearing pants. She said she sometimes even mowed the lawn in her bikini.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yup. She uses that one a lot. She uses that one a lot.
Christine Schiefer: God help us all. Ugh, Lord... And it's speculated that Michelle's transition into such a religious life, estranged her from some of her own family who was not in this world, umm such as her older sister, Evelyn, who is gay and has only appeared once on the show.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but Josh, for some reason, denies this estrangement and says his own aunt has chosen to live a gay life and he loves her, uh and he also said, "Evelyn has told me she is not for all these measures that are being pushed when it comes to marriage and things. She believes that marriage is between one man and one woman," and I'm like...
Em Schulz: Okay, Josh. Okay, Josh.
Christine Schiefer: So he's saying, so he's saying Evelyn is claiming that she doesn't want gay marriage to be acceptable, even though she's chose... Like that... Okay, that's crazy.
Em Schulz: First of all, you guys are like pretty darn estranged. And also, I think that that quote came from when he was working at the FRC, which was... Uh he worked at The Family Research Council, which was like this conservative group in DC...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And he was like... I think he thought he was gonna grow up to like be fucking president one day.
Christine Schiefer: Gross.
Em Schulz: And so he was in politics before all of the scandals came out, of course.
Christine Schiefer: Well.
Em Schulz: And uh I think it came, it was like around some sort of election time or when he was like trying to campaign and they were asking his thoughts on...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: On if he is queer-friendly and he was trying to use his like aunt as a point.
Christine Schiefer: I understand. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's like, I have an aunt who's gay, but she's also on our side and so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and she gets it. Ugh, God.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly, yup.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that's yeah, that... That does add a lot of uh context to that quote because I was like... Where did that come from?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Other than that, they've really never mentioned anything queer...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Unless it's incredibly phobic. So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. So according to the Duggars, uh their family was loving and thriving and closer than ever. While Jim Bob worked in the House of Representatives, he and Michelle welcomed three more babies. What are their names, Em? These are...
Em Schulz: After the 11?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, the next three.
Em Schulz: Jason, James and Justin.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Look at you. I can't believe it.
Em Schulz: [chuckles] I hate myself to be clear.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so proud of you. I am. So in 2002, Jim Bob left his position to run for Senate and he lost, but TV producers were mm-mm homing in on this whole situation, uh where he is standing in his campaign photos next to Michelle, and surrounded by their 14 children. So on September 6th of 2004, Discovery Channel featured an hour-long special called 14 Children and Pregnant Again! Exclamation point.
Em Schulz: Yup.
Christine Schiefer: And this followed the Duggar through a typical day in their home, uh they went over the immense charts for the chores, uh which they called... Do you know what they call those?
Em Schulz: Jurisdictions.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're such a hero. You're my hero. You're my hero. Seriously.
Em Schulz: Well. What... Uh, that's all it took this whole time.
Christine Schiefer: I mean really... Yeah, I'm just so impressed. Uh the special even covered the birth of their 15th child. You know that one?
Em Schulz: Jackson Levi.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. Uh by this time, there were so many kids that the buddy system was not doing it, so they replaced it with the groups system.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And sisters Jill, Jana, Jinger and Jessa were assigned a group of siblings to essentially raise as a team together.
Em Schulz: A buddy team. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And so babies were assigned to a team on a rotating basis, and their teams were chosen before the baby was even born, so that the older siblings would be prepared once the baby was born to start caring for it right away.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: In 2006, another special came out, uh do you know the name of this next one? There's like so many with weirdly similar...
Em Schulz: 14 kids and pregnant again, is it, is it, is it 15 kids and preg- uh pregnant again or 15 Kids and Counting?
Christine Schiefer: It's Raising 16 Children.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so this was just another like one-hour special, and this one featured the birth of Johannah, is that how you say that?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, Johannah, mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Johannah Faith. Three more specials followed the family as they moved into a new home and went on trips to the Grand Canyon and Disneyland, and the last special in 2007 featured the birth of baby number 17, Jennifer Danielle.
Em Schulz: Jennifer Danielle.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I didn't know we were doing middle names this whole time. I could do that too. Don't worry.
Christine Schiefer: Oh you can, okay, great. They're both there. I have both, first and middle on all these.
Em Schulz: Great, great. Oh! So great, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, so the family was a total hit uh and in 2008, Discovery's partner station, a little channel called The Learning Channel...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Began airing 17 Kids and Counting, uh which is so, this part's so backward to me, but like they're, you know, reality TV stars, this family. But the kids are not allowed to watch TV, so it's like a... It's such a bizarre concept.
Em Schulz: Yeah, they even... Well they've said that in the past, too. It's like, we don't even know what people are seeing.
Christine Schiefer: Like we can't even watch it. I-i-it, it's so backwards, it's so backwards.
Em Schulz: Also I think, I think because they didn't have TV, they also didn't really know what the concept of fame was, and so when they started getting recognized in real life...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: They were like, what the fuck is going on?
Christine Schiefer: That must be so weird.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That must be so weird, I hadn't even thought of that. So this series would ultimately span 10 seasons, 229 standard episodes and 16 specials, all of which Em has on Blu-ray, I'm sure of it. [laughter] The boxed set.
Em Schulz: No. I, I do the uh, the not so legal version of that, 'cause I don't wanna pay money, of course. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh interesting, uh I, you know, I never support that until this very moment, and I think.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Now I'd like to say, Let's get it on LimeWire and...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But you know, they... I do still watch it every now and then, just to like see how young all the kids looked back then 'cause like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So I started watching when Jackson was born, which was...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Which he was the first Duggar to be born on television.
Christine Schiefer: On TV.
Em Schulz: And now there's... And now there's like...
Christine Schiefer: I love that there's a first. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know and now there's like... I feel like there was like 30 eventually.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: But umm... So I've been watching since he was born and he just turned 19.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So just to give you an idea of how long I've been in touch with this family.
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: I know, and he, back in the day, I'll watch some of the episodes, Jackson was like the star child of the show, he was like this cute little kid, and he was so sweet.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And that everyone was really rooting for him to one day make it out, maybe there's a freejackson.org or something one day but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we should start it.
Em Schulz: But he was the cutest little kid...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And uh him and Joy-Anna, uh Johannah were best friends, and they would call each other, umm The Lone Ranger and Tonto or something. They were like... They were like, I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Thick as thieves. But then it got really sad 'cause then once they like hit puberty, you can tell they were separated and they like quit...
Christine Schiefer: Gosh, that is sad, and it like puts such a fucking like weird spin on what should just be a he-healthy happy sibling relationship.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and now they know really probably.
Christine Schiefer: Now you're inserting all this crap into it, like it was gonna be sexualized, and it's like God, let kids be kids.
Em Schulz: And he, yeah. Uh, Jackson's ended up having to go like hang out with the boys and like learn boy things, and like he got taken away from...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh that really is so sad.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: Well, Jordyn-Grace Makiya, is that how you say it?
Em Schulz: Yup.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, ultimately became the 18th Duggar. And uh who's number 19, Em?
Em Schulz: Josie Brooklyn.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. And so when Josie Brooklyn was born, TLC renamed the show, 19 Kids and Counting, and that's probably the most recognizable one, at least to my ear.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, during the Josie Brooklyn pregnancy, Michelle suffered from uh preeclampsia, which is, as a former pregnant person, an extremely dangerous uh blood pressure issue to have during pregnancy. Umm it can be fatal, it can cause uh seizures, brain injuries if it gets too far, uh fluid buildup in the lungs, it can impair your liver and kidney function. So basically like your body like starts shutting down if you... So if you have preeclampsia, you've gotta get that shit figured out, otherwise it couldn't turn into eclampsia.
Em Schulz: And she was already getting older as, in terms of what pregnant people age ranges are, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Right, they start calling it a geriatric pregnancy at 35, so.
Em Schulz: And he... And she was in her 40s when she had Josie, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so umm, I think people are already worried that it was high-risk pregnancy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah there's more complications. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, and and preeclampsia's like very alarming. Umm and so you know, that must have been scary. So, Josie was born via emergency C-section. Do you know how much she weighed when she was born?
Em Schulz: Uh I know she was... She weighed less than a pool ball, like, like so... That's, that's what they...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's weirder than actually knowing the specific number.
Em Schulz: So I know for two reasons: One, because that's what Jim Bob said on the show.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: And also because the show would often have like these little like fly-away, like fun facts in the corner of the show.
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's a great fun fact. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think it, it it was... They said her weight in one of those like fun fact clips where it was like a pound, like not even, which is a pound?
Christine Schiefer: She weighed 1 pound, 6 ounces.
Em Schulz: Six ounces. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like that is so small.
Em Schulz: Uh she was, wasn't she born at like four months or something, or she had four months...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I don't know.
Em Schulz: It was something, she's either was born at four months of pregnancy and had five months to go or she was born five months into the pregnancy.
Christine Schiefer: 25 weeks.
Em Schulz: Okay, so like what's that?
Christine Schiefer: 25 divided by four. So that's like six and a half months umm...
Em Schulz: She had three and half months left to, before she's supposed to be born.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah two and a half, I think. That's 25 weeks is is quite...
Em Schulz: Two and a half.
Christine Schiefer: Quite early... Umm.
Em Schulz: She was, I mean, in the pictures like you can see... She's like the size of a hand. Not even, like it's... She's so tiny.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: And she really was struggling.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's very umm... That's scary. And you know, with current medical uh, I don't know, advancements, uh a lot of the babies do survive, but often have health complications, umm I...
Em Schulz: She was, she was in the hospital for so long, like they even...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I bet.
Em Schulz: They relocated umm, a whole season was in like a rental house next to the hospital...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Just to be with the baby.
Christine Schiefer: Geez. Yeah, I I just looked it up just to see kind of what the internet says, umm but yeah, so any infant born before 28 weeks is considered extremely premature...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, or a micro-preemie and have a 75-85% chance of survival, which is scary. Very scary.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm and so you know, she's born uh... Weight of a pool ball or whatever...
Em Schulz: I, I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No. I, I just was like, I was so taken aback by that fun fact. Umm.
Em Schulz: It was, it... That's why... It always stuck with me 'cause I was like, wow, like why would you say that of all things? But...
Christine Schiefer: I can see it... I can see it just like scrolling across the bottom as like, what are they... Like little... Did you know? Well no...
Em Schulz: It was, it was either one of those like fast facts or I know he said it to someone over the phone, it was like she weighs like a pool ball or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway. So she spent several months in the hospital until she was able to go home with her family as the 19th Duggar child. Once Josie was stable enough, uh she was assigned to be cared for by her older sister, Jana.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: For several years, critics of the show spoke about... Spoke up about how damaging this could be for children to grow up with their lives just plastered on TV. Umm I think this is now also a big thing with YouTube families and TikTokers because there's no protections in place for...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Children who... Especially when they get into these really big successful YouTube channels, these family vloggers like sometimes put their kids through all this labor, like they're they're they're working, they're on camera, and there's no like child labor law in place for that kind of thing. So I know people are scrambling to try and find like ways to protect kids. Umm.
Em Schulz: Well also as, for the Duggars specifically, they told the kids, 'cause even if it felt like work, they... Some of the kids would ask like why there were cameras in the house, and they were told that it was a ministry for God, because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: If they let people film in the house and air it...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Then maybe they would... Maybe someone would like the show so much or like their family so much, and see their good Christian values that they would convert and be saved.
Christine Schiefer: That is just crazy town. And like...
Em Schulz: So now think of the additional pressure, if you are a true Christian and feel like you're like going to save people through this...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You wanna, you wanna put on your your best attitude...
Christine Schiefer: You're right, it's not even a job, it's like you're suddenly also a warrior for Christ and having to like convert people and you're seven years old.
Em Schulz: And even when you're home, like I mean if you're... Imagine you're a teenager and you just wanna be moody and have an attitude, but like your... But there's cameras in your face. So in front of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Not only is America judging you and watching you, God is also judging and watching you, it's like...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, well, I can't win in this scenario.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's doubling down on the trauma of being like a kid in the limelight.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So you know, no privacy whatsoever, everything they did, millions of people watch. Uh in 2015, when Josie was five, there was a big umm backlash when TLC aired uh a scene of Josie suffering a seizure uh during filming...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm yup.
Christine Schiefer: And uh I did appreciate the channels that I watched about this blurred all the children's faces out because you know, that's what a decent person would do, uh but of course, TLC did not uh blur any faces out, and also just filmed the entire thing, like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like Jana's on the phone with 911, frantic, and they're just... The cameras are rolling...
Em Schulz: And Jana's like a 20-year-old. Like she's like... She's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And there's also... Umm people still talk about that with Jana because she was essentially... What a lot of people believe is she was more of a mom to Josie than...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Even Michelle was... I don't I don't know what was going on with Michelle. I don't know if maybe she was... I-it's it... The the way it came across is it looked like Jana was like... I mean, Jana was crying and scared and Michelle seemed to not be as panicked and so...
Christine Schiefer: So I guess Michelle and... Yeah, Jim Bob were out of town when the actual seizure occurred, which then also created a big conundrum, or not conundrum.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But like some backlash in... Among the public because it's like, wait, so the parents aren't even home and this child is having like a medical crisis. And so her older sister has to call 911 and like be frantic, and then you're right, the episode aired and Michelle, the mom, was like, oh, well, seizure... Seizures aren't that unusual for Josie, and she fucking called them, one of Josie's "little glitches."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, Hello?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It-it's so upsetting.
Em Schulz: So, uh uh by the way, umm Jana is now like in her mid-30s and is still not married, she's officially like a full-blown spinster in the world.
Christine Schiefer: Spinster.
Em Schulz: But a lot of people think it's like she had to like raise Josie.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: They think, the way that the show made it look is she pretty much raised a micro-pe... Preemie with seizures all by yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And on top of that, she raised like 15 other children.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And so she's just like... A lot of people think she's intentionally not getting married because she knows.
Christine Schiefer: Good for her.
Em Schulz: That she would have to get pregnant and she doesn't wanna raise any more kids so...
Christine Schiefer: Is she still in the faith?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay, that's too bad.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm so when the show aired, uh Michelle and Jim Bob published books uh that covered financial advice, parenting tips, the secret to a long loving marriage, which by the way, is God's doing. You just gotta love God enough. And then it'll work out.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So yes, the seizure thing basically showed viewers like, okay, the siblings are taking on the true parenting roles, whereas Jim Bob and Michelle are just like ambivalent or like out of the house, or not that concerned...
Em Schulz: Or putting the... Or putting their umm, their celebrity first...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because they were often away doing guest lectures and like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They were doing promo stuff, and the kids were always at home, babysitting each other.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And they're, they're like writing books and doing press tours. Yeah. So as the show you know, continues, the oldest Duggar children are starting to grow up and consider marriage. The Duggars uh are anti-dating, they instead endorse courtship, and the idea is that couples' outings are always chaperoned, couples engage in family activities together instead of like a traditional one-on-one date, and this is something that I always found fascinating, and I'm sure you can shed some light on this, but Jim Bob had a questionnaire that uh men would have to fill out if, if they wanted to court his daughters, and some of these questionnaires were up to 30 pages long.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh and I I, I wonder... Do you know, I don't know. Do you know any of the questions on this questionnaire?
Em Schulz: Umm I actually, I did, for... At some point, I don't know how I got a hold of it. [laughter] I got a hold of the questionnaire at some point, umm but it wasn't...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I found it.
Em Schulz: Did you? Okay, so it was easy to get. It's not like I did anything sneaky. Umm it was, I think at one point, I actually heard it was a 50-page questionnaire.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: And there's different sections, some of them are financial-based, like how do you make your money, how do you plan on staying out of debt...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: One of them is like your... What's your testimony? Please write your testimony in full detail of how you were saved.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: What's your relationship with your family, umm you know, all the, all the good things that require 50 pages of... Of questions I guess...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus, yeah I... Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it was, uh, which like, I don't know like what he thought. Like couldn't you just get that information out of like asking a person and getting to know them, as they're dating your kid, but whatever...
Christine Schiefer: No, 'cause there's like 100, oh, 200, 300, 400... Uh there are 423 questions. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: We should fill it out for each other and see where we stand.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. Okay, yeah. Let me ask you umm...
Em Schulz: The testimony question will unfortunately be blank for me so.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I think a lot of these will be blank umm. If... To the best of your understanding, are you able to have children, uh.
Em Schulz: Gross!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What is the best method of disciplining children? Do you believe in spanking children?
Em Schulz: Ugh God. Which by the way, they've... I don't know what, they haven't openly said it, but they do follow uh Gothard-ism and the IBLP, and there's uh, a big following in the IBLP for blanket training...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I can't... You've told me about this on the show. It's upsetting... I think about it a lot.
Em Schulz: It's... They're, they're very umm pro-corporal punishment for children, the the fa... The faith in general, not... I don't know about the Duggars.
Christine Schiefer: Well here's number 265. When does corporal discipline begin? 266, how do you begin to train infants? Like...
Em Schulz: Ugh, gross.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? It's, it's upsetting. Umm... It's upsetting. So anyway, but this is the situation that people are put into if they want to court one of the daughters of Jim Bob. So May 21st, 2015, uh this is when the next big scandal hits the press. So this was only a month after this whole seizure debacle. In Touch Weekly published an article using uh open source uh you know, files and documents they found online, they published an article called Bombshell Duggar Police Report: Jim Bob Duggar Didn't Report Son Josh's Alleged Sex Offenses For More Than a Year.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So this started to kick off horrifying revelations about the Duggar family going back 13 years. In 2002, Jim Bob Duggar had notified local police that a "female minor reported sexual abuse in their home." Josh, who was 14 at the time, uh admitted to molesting one of his young sisters at night more than once.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In fact, Josh actually confessed this to his parents unprompted before any of the victims came forward, and this became a big thing when Jim Bob and Michelle were were trying to explain how great their parenting techniques were because he... He felt safe to come to us and admit his wrongdoings. And it's like, yeah, but your children don't feel safe sleeping in their own beds.
Em Schulz: Yeah, they really tried to make it look like our teachings work because he felt so riddled with guilt that we know we can trust him.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Because he's so honest even though...
Christine Schiefer: And he came in to us because he knows that like we will, he can confide in us about his shortcomings.
Em Schulz: It's like you're touching... He's touching your daughters, like what are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah yeah. It's shocking how that's just not relevant in any of these interviews. Like it's about Josh, not about the girls.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so his parents, you know, he came forward to his parents, it took them 16 months to take any action whatsoever, simply ignoring it, mostly, while Josh began to molest more of his younger sisters.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: When Jim Bob finally did report it, the police took no legal action and basically told Jim Bob, uh he could do whatever punishment he saw fit to uh take care of the situation.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Only nine months later, Jim Bob's daughters complained of continued abuse. Instead of going back to the police, Jim Bob decided to meet with several church leaders about it, umm apparently including... What's his face? Uh Go-Gothard, what's his name?
Em Schulz: Bill Gothard.
Christine Schiefer: Bill Gothard. They sent Josh to a Christian counseling program for four months, which at first they claimed was a reputable cred-accredited counseling program, but instead he went to one of Bill Gothard's like Extension Centers.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That needed some construction work done, and he basically did physical labor. And like some vague counseling.
Em Schulz: Yeah he dug, he dug holes. He dug holes for like four months.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah he literally... Which sounds like the book Holes, which is a much better story than this one, umm...
Em Schulz: No he umm, and it was... So he... It ended up being uh four of his five sisters that were...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: 'Cause he only had five sisters at the time, and then uh, a baby sitter.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and a babysitter, that's right.
Em Schulz: That was the, the minor that came forward, but... Yeah, he umm, he dug holes and I guess he went through some version of a program where like they like shaved his hair, that was part of it, and uh...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like some sort of boot camp thing, you know.
Em Schulz: Which they do have a... We won't even get into it, but they do have a a Christian boot camp that they send all their sons to, so...
Christine Schiefer: God help me.
Em Schulz: And it wasn't that, that he went to, but there's uh one of the specials early on, it was filmed right around the time that he admitted to his family what happened and then they sent him to this camp, but they were gonna film a special about all 19 kids or however many kids there were at the time...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And they thought it would look weird if Josh wasn't there...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: To be a part of the special. So he came back for a weekend and whatever special it is where his hair is like buzzed off...
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: That was when he was actually at this camp and he like got sent immediately back after the filming or something.
Christine Schiefer: That is so fucked. So yeah, you can basically tell by his fucking haircut, whether or not he was in this counseling program, which again, like had no license to therapize anyone. Umm so, Josh came home eventually and apologized to his victims. In the end, uh umm a State Trooper named Joseph Hutchens had a stern talk, a lecture with Josh and said, you know, this, "You can't continue this behavior," uh, but also took no action. And this guy was a mandatory reporter, which essentially means he was a professional who is required to report cases of suspected child abuse and neglect, so you know, if he sees something, he is required to report it, even if it's just a hunch, but nope. Didn't report anything, umm even though he was legally required to as law enforcement, and according to Joseph, he tells a different story.
Christine Schiefer: He says he thought Josh had only offended once and he didn't believe it would happen again. And he says he loses sleep over his failure to report Josh when he should have, saying, "I am a Christian myself, and I worry that something else may have happened. I would be responsible for it, in my opinion, by not reporting it. The young girl should have been my first priority."
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Now here we do a big old plot twist, where...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Turns out, Joseph Hutchens, uh this guy who is just riddled with guilt about not reporting the alleged abuse, uh is currently on parole after serving 15 years of a 56-year prison sentence on child pornography charges.
Em Schulz: That'll do it.
Christine Schiefer: Like, are you kidding me? This one guy that they had talked to him and give him a stern lecture... And didn't report anything. Well, guess what, he was also in the same fucking circle, participating in the same fucking bullshit.
Em Schulz: Well I think he was actually in the same circle, 'cause I I think this is alleged 'cause I, I don't remember where I heard this from, but I think one of the rumors was that he was actually... Yes, he was a, a cop, but he was also part of the same faith in the same church that the Duggars went to.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And so they were like, we'll go to a cop we can trust who's not gonna actually do anything...
Christine Schiefer: Right, it's like, oh, we'll have him talk to you and give you a lecture...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But not take any action outside the home.
Em Schulz: That's what I... That's... I think that's... I'm not trying to spread any misinformation, but I'm pretty sure that's, that was was one of the rumors that like he actually knew the family, and so he was like not as harsh about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely believe that. And as somebody who then ended up getting busted for the same shit.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like child pornography, it's obvious why he was not concerned with reporting this to anybody...
Em Schulz: Yeah a 14-year-old touching his his sisters, which then a bunch of people came out and were like trying to defend Josh to say like... And they were like usually people who I would assume are like on the right side of things, because they were saying like, "Oh well, this is what happens when you don't teach children about you know, sex, and he was too curious, but he couldn't go to anybody and talk about it so."
Christine Schiefer: Oh come on.
Em Schulz: I know, they were saying like he umm, like because he never gets to interact with any other girls, these are the girls that he was surrounded by and he got curious and like... It was like... It was like, why, who...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, a lot of people aren't taught about sex and are curious that...
Em Schulz: I've never fucking touched any children when I was...
Christine Schiefer: End of story.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That... It's not that hard, but a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: That's an insane fucking, like...
Em Schulz: A lot of people tried to twist it into like...
Christine Schiefer: Stretch...
Em Schulz: Oh well, he did... He didn't know any better, and they were like trying to defend him and like criticize Jim Bob and Michelle, and it's like, you're doing it backwards, like...
Christine Schiefer: You're almost there...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But like, no.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But like, no.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh... Yeah. Yes.
Em Schulz: The end.
Christine Schiefer: Holy, holy... Holy shit. Holy shit. So, the Duggars are now supposed to be appearing on The Oprah Winfrey Show in 2006, but shortly before the family would appear on the show, a letter appeared at the Harpo Studios. An anonymous tip came in about the abuse from a family friend of the Duggars. Do you, I think you told me how this happened, but wasn't there a... A letter written by one of the girls that had been tucked into a book? Did you hear about this? There was a letter...
Em Schulz: That sounds familiar, but I don't remember it.
Christine Schiefer: One of the girls wrote about the abuse, put it in a book, and then this book ended up getting like switching hands and going to a different family and...
Em Schulz: Oh, that does sound... Yeah. Something like that...
Christine Schiefer: As they were flipping through, the family friend found this letter that was never sent out. And so they anonymously contacted Oprah and said like, there is shit going on in this family. I don't want you to give them this platform. Like they're just fooling all of you and all of us. Uh, and so Oprah is not one to be made a fool of. And so, she involved police who launched an official investigation into the family. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah, 'cause I remember, I remember saying something to you about it and I was like, how did Oprah end up in this storyline? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oprah just like, was like, okay, well then let's fucking nail them. Like, they're not coming on my show. Let's get the police involved. But unfortunately, it was too late because Arkansas has an extremely short statute of limitations on molestation, sexual abuse. So there was no case to be made or to be had. So the abuse continued to remain a secret until 2015 when In Touch Weekly used legal public information routes to access the initial abuse complaints. And that's when this big bombshell article came out. So in the wake of the report, TLC made a statement condemning Josh's actions, and they removed all 19 Kids and Counting episodes from the air, even though it was like their biggest seller, like their...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Hot ticket item. The show was officially canceled on July 26th, 2015. But of course, Josh had his own supporters backing him, including the ever graceful Mike Hugabee... Huckabee...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Former Arkansas governor, trash monster, uh, who rallied behind Josh and the Duggars. Of course, Josh's wife, Anna Duggar, also made a public statement to assure people that she knew about the abuse before they got married. And she believed that he had been forgiven in the eyes of God. And then Jim and Bob, I'm sorry, Jim and Bob, [laughter] it gets me every time. I'm like, that's a name. Oh my God. Jim Bob and Michelle made the following public statement. Back 12 years ago, our family went through one of the most difficult times of our lives. When Josh was a young teenager, he made some very bad mistakes and we were shocked. We had tried to teach him right from wrong. That dark and difficult time caused us to seek God like never before. Even though we would never choose to go through something so terrible, each one of our family members drew closer to God. So like, all in all, this was a good thing, is kind of what they're arguing.
Em Schulz: And during that same interview, 'cause I think that was with Megyn Kelly or something?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes.
Em Schulz: They, umm, which they...
Christine Schiefer: Those clips are crazy town.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. They, and then right after they went on, uh, two of his sisters who were two of the victims came on.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Jessa and Jill. And they, they did, they said they were like fully in defense of Josh, they were like, uh, this, you know, happened so long ago in our family and we had truly gotten over it as a family. We had forgiven him. So much time had passed that he has like rebuilt his trust with us. And, you know, and then all of a sudden, this came out...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And now we're having to like relive all of the experience.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And it's re-tarnishing us. But the thing I wanna mention about that interview is at the end, Megyn Kelly is like, okay. And, and now like, now that this has come out, no-nothing else, no other drama in the family. There's no other scandal. We're never gonna find out anything else about the family. And they both unknowingly, but they vouched for Josh being like, this is the only drama. This is the only scandal our family has. You're not gonna hear about us ever again.
Christine Schiefer: The dad keeps saying, Jim Bob keeps saying, we have nothing to hide.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's why we did this show. We had nothing to hide.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Famous last fucking words, let's put it that way.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or this is, you'll never hear from us again. This is the last scandal you'll ever know of. That was another famous last words.
Christine Schiefer: Famous last words. So Josh himself also spoke out, uh, in his own defense, and this is what he had to say. 12 years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me, and those affected by my actions, to receive counseling. Digging holes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I understood that if I continued down this wrong road, that I would end up ruining my life. I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life. I would do anything to go back to those teen years and take different actions. In my life today, I am so very thankful for God's grace, mercy, and redemption. So some of Josh's sisters, which you've alluded to, who were his victims, spoke in his defense as well. And like you said, they had chosen to forgive Josh, uh, when he asked for their forgiveness years ago. And Jill specifically said, when the news broke, umm, when In Touch shared this information, uh, she felt re-victimized by the story coming back, like coming to light. And according to her statement, this was something that's already been dealt with. We've already forgiven Josh. We've already moved on. Umm, and, you know, for what it's worth, In Touch plastered their names all over the story, even though they were minors and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's a, it's a, that's a toughie. I don't know... I don't know. I don't know where to stand about that. Umm.
Em Schulz: Also like, not to, I think one of them had just like gotten married or something and another one had just had a baby at the time. And so I feel like, like their first baby, I feel like they had just come into this world, where now they're supposed to be like open to...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Sexuality and things like that. And like it happened right in the moment when they're supposed to finally allow themselves to be vulnerable about that stuff...
Christine Schiefer: To be open and sexually active. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And now they... And now they have to, and now they have to think about that, on top of like...
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point.
Em Schulz: The first time they're having like intimacy moments with their partners...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And it's like, I just can't imagine the layers of trauma that they're like, unfortunately...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Having to live through.
Christine Schiefer: It's hard 'cause like, obviously I think this news needed to come out, like this needed to be investigated, but also, like, I can understand that that would be deeply traumatizing to be like re-victimized. So it's a hard nut to crack. I feel like I don't...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Know that maybe they didn't go about it the best way. I'm not really sure. But, umm, it just breaks my heart because like, God, these poor girls, like, they've gone through enough.
Em Schulz: They... They've already raised 19 children, they've done nothing wrong, and now they're being like...
Christine Schiefer: Put on blast all over again in the media.
Em Schulz: All over again, and now expected to be vulnerable with partners, like, while they're being re-traumatized about something.
Christine Schiefer: Being talked about it on TV and all this...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: And it's one thing, I mean, I'm not trying to compare traumas, but, you know, it's one thing for someone to talk about this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: On media, and it's like a really vulnerable, hard time to, to reflect on. But if you've also grown up in a family that says, you're never allowed to talk about this stuff. And as you said earlier, if something bad happens to you, it was either your fault...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Or it's a moral vaccination.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Or like, like this was meant to happen and you should be content with whatever God gives you or...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And so on top of a normal traumatized, a a normal trauma there with...
Christine Schiefer: With this... With presumably some support system and hopefully some...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Support system behind them, they're like at a loss here with no recourse. Like they're, the statute of limitations...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Has expired. Their parents are basically teaching them it's their fault. They're in this corner.
Em Schulz: And... And one of the things that Jinger's been talking about on her, on her book tour recently is that, and a lot of people who have come out and said, oh, I knew the Duggars and this is what they were like, they've said, oh, they're weirdly robotic. Like, they don't really have a lot of personality, like individual personality...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Jinger, during her book tour has said, we were all kind of raised to like, be very specific and calculated with the way that we responded to things...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: The way that we talked. Because not only were we on television, but we wanted to, quote, "keep sweet and be good for the Lord" and all this stuff. And so every, she was saying in one of her interviews that every time someone talked to her, whether it was a friend or the press, or even her own fucking family, before she said anything in her mind, she would be thinking, what's the right thing to say?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: What's the right thing to say? So she never even felt safe to...
Christine Schiefer: No freedom of thought. No freedom of expression. Like...
Em Schulz: And so to go on a Megyn Kelly show after a scandal and have to essentially freestyle a conversation about a really intense...
Christine Schiefer: Defending your...
Em Schulz: Traumatizing thing...
Christine Schiefer: Family against, about the thing they did to you...
Em Schulz: I can't imagine the pressure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The, you're right. It's, it's so many layers and it's like, you know, we can't even begin to understand what it's like to live under all those layers. But, umm, it just, yeah, it makes me sad. And, you know, the family argued at this point that, oh, don't worry. We took steps to protect the girls after the abuse. We put locks on their bedroom doors and we made...
Em Schulz: Yup.
Christine Schiefer: Sure... We made sure that the girls wore shorts and leggings under their skirts...
Em Schulz: Vomitus.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Like, oh, we put things in place, we locked the doors.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That was it. That was fucking...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. So one of Josh's sisters was angry that the media was calling Josh a pedophile. Umm, according to Jessa, quote, "He was a boy, a young boy in puberty and a little too curious about girls."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. See.
Christine Schiefer: She insisted Josh... That's the exact argument. She insisted Josh was no longer a danger to anyone and that he was a good man. Again, famous last words. In 2017, Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy filed a lawsuit against In Touch Weekly, the city of Springdale and Washington County, claiming their privacy was breached when In Touch Weekly released their names with the 2006 police report. And Josh hopped on the bandwagon and also sued because the report on his teenage actions had hurt his reputation.
Em Schulz: Well, he got, I think that's the, I think that might be the one where he got fired...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, probably.
Em Schulz: So maybe that's why he was worried about his reputation 'cause he lost his job.
Christine Schiefer: He lost his job and the lawsuit was immediately dismissed. Well, not immediately, but ultimately dismissed. So he didn't get any sort of compensation for all the trauma he's had to go through, boohoo. In total, Josh had five victims, only four are I guess specifically known. Uh, his family continued to defend him as a good man who had just made mistakes as a young boy. And he and his wife turned to a little something called, do you know what this, uh, service is that they started to use?
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah, I, yes I do. It's the, umm, shit, shit... It's, are you talking about the program to like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Keep trackers on their phones and everything?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Something with the word eye...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: I don't know. What is it?
Christine Schiefer: Covenant Eyes.
Em Schulz: Covenant Eye. I wasn't gonna get the word covenant.
Christine Schiefer: It basically uh, is like a Christian software that alerts your family or friend or spouse if you are looking at porn...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it's basically the whole point of it is to try and live a porn-free life and to get out of...
Em Schulz: To keep your eyes pure.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. To get out of the spiral of like the shame around porn and then watching more porn, and like damaging your partnership. And so essentially, what they did was put this tracker on his phone and computer. Uh, but one day, at church, of all places, Josh... Josh was chatting with a friend about how frustrating it was to have this Covenant Eyes thing always watching him, and his friend said, oh, well, you know, there are ways around it. And he was like, Really? Interesante. Let's write that down.
Em Schulz: Muy, interesante.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And so he's working at a car dealership, uh, and one day, the fucking FBI show up...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And his response to the FBI's arrival...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Do you, do you remember it?
Em Schulz: "Has someone been looking at child porn?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What fucking moron are you?
Em Schulz: And by the way, it was his, it yeah, it was his car shop. It was his family car shop.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: He, and I remember like there's, if you look at the, the plot of land, there's like a random shed, which is where they kept the computers or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: So it was almost like he had a whole, I think he used his like actual computer in the main office, but I think there was a second place he could like run off and hide and use his phone or something.
Christine Schiefer: So actually what he did, well yes, I think that too. But I, what he did was he partitioned his hard drive and created...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: A Linux hard drive where he could access the dark web, but it...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Wouldn't be tracked by this Covenant Eyes thing. And you know, he thought like, most predators do, that they're fucking geniuses. Right? So he's like, oh, I, no one's gonna figure this shit out. But he is on, which they kept, I, I listened to the entire interview between the FBI and him right after he was taken in for questioning about this. And it's like 40 minutes long or something. But I just wanted to throw up like the whole time. It's just horrible because he's in there and, and he's like trying to play all chummy. Like, oh man.
Em Schulz: He is. Chummy is the perfect word.
Christine Schiefer: It's so gross. He's like, Oh, the work you guys do is so great and like, you do such honorable work, to these like guys looking for people who are Googling child porn on the dark web.
Em Schulz: He had to be sweating. I mean like, but also obviously, he was sweating because who just goes up to the cops and says, oh, has someone been looking at child porn? Which like, you...
Christine Schiefer: Huh. Have some of my employees been looking at child porn?
Em Schulz: Like, you just, it could have been like, oh, hey, one of your cars had like, has a busted taillight. Like, and he just like, he was clearly so guilty...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like he like had...
Christine Schiefer: He just spit out his own fucking crime in front of the FBI.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And he was like, oh, well sometimes, you know, we find things in cars, like old cell phones in the back of like a Honda because it's a used car. So... And I'm like, so you're arguing that... So yeah, he's asking a lot of questions. It is frustrating to hear because the FBI guy is kind of like chummy back with him and is sort of, and at first, I thought, oh, maybe that's just a technique. But like, there were so many chances where Josh could have kept talking and incriminated himself and they just kept interrupting and like stopping him from talking.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, he is literally walking in circles around it and like he's about to fucking blurt something out, but they keep being like, they just keep interrupting. And I'm like, let him fucking talk so that he can say something incriminating, whatever. It was very frustrating. Umm, and it was gross because he was all chummy and like, Oh, the work you do is so amazing. Umm.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm...
Christine Schiefer: But so apparently, this is what he had been doing and they asked him if he knew what Tor was...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And this is different from torrent, which is like, you know, a file from Napster or LimeWire, speaking of which, uh, but do you know what Tor is, like, what it stands for? Because I had no idea.
Em Schulz: I didn't even know it stood for something.
Christine Schiefer: So apparently it's called The Onion Router, T-O-R.
Em Schulz: Oh, I had heard Onion something. Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so it's like a browser you can use essentially to access the dark web, basically. Like, I don't know that it's intended for that, but essentially, it, it's like a free open source software that enables anonymous communication. Umm, and so it it hides all of your kind of activity...
Em Schulz: Whereabouts. Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And so he was using this to access, uh, the dark web and finding some very upsetting content. And he's just not acting in this interview as if he's done... As if he's innocent because they're asking questions. He's like, listen, I just wanna make sure like, you get the answers you're looking for and you know, I'm not gonna say I'm not guilty, but I also don't wanna implicate myself. And I'm like, you're not gonna say you're not guilty? Like if you have not been looking up child porn and the FBI is like, Hey, you've been looking up child porn, a normal person's reaction would be like, what the fuck? No, I haven't, like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wouldn't do that.
Em Schulz: If someone ever looked at me and said, you've been looking at child porn, my eyes would glaze over in like complete confusion.
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like...
Em Schulz: I'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And so he's like not acting innocent at all. He's like, I just really respect your work and I wanna let you do your job. Umm, you know, I'm not gonna say I'm not guilty because I don't know the details of what's going on. And it's like, you just said that out loud, but then when he keeps talking, they keep interrupting him and I'm like, this idiot is gonna just blow it in a second. Let him, whatever. It was just...
Em Schulz: He... He has always, like, if you watch any of the episodes with him, he always felt like a slimy schmoozer. And like, there was a... I remember there was at one of his sisters' weddings, I think it was Jill, he like goes up before the wedding and like, has the microphone and is like, kind of like telling people like, you know, hey, because they would film the, the weddings as like specials for the show...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So I think they had to have one of them go up and be like, hey, nobody use like, flash photography or anything. We're gonna be using, you know, professional cameras. But the way he went up was so fucking slimy.
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: And he was like, he was like, No phones. Does everyone understand? Like, he'd be so condescending and like think he was hysterical and thought he was taking the house down...
Christine Schiefer: Gross!
Em Schulz: And he was... He was just like always creepy. And there have been people who have shown up on the Reddit page...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Which like, again, I cannot confirm or deny if they like actually...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Knew them but people...
Christine Schiefer: I was actually about to bring up Reddit. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well, people claim to, uh, like have known some of the Duggars and they've all said that Josh was always a total creep show. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Apparently the one, I don't know if it's the one you're thinking of probably, but, uh, apparently one of the former security guards did an Ask Me Anything on Reddit. And uh, he described that the family treated Josh so differently from the other kids...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he had like a very special place in his parents' heart, you know, and they always wanted to make sure his protection was paramount. And apparently, like he would come in the room and during this whole scandal, like blowing up and his dad would go, "Ah, there he is the man of the hour. Everyone's talking about him." Like...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of joking about like how he's in the spotlight and it...
Em Schulz: Gross.
Christine Schiefer: It's, it's it's pretty sick. Uh.
Em Schulz: He was definitely like the golden child for sure...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And he was there first, right? Like he's the oldest.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Awful.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's horrible. These poor kids. Ugh, anyway, so he has figured out a way around Covenant Eyes. He has split his hard drive into a Linux section, where he can access Tor, this, uh, Onion Browser that keeps your activities secretive. And I, I'm not saying Tor is specifically meant to access the dark web, I just think this is the way...
Em Schulz: It can be used.
Christine Schiefer: Some people u-use it. Yes. So now he's suddenly facing, at age 33, by the way, uh, new charges, two counts of downloading and possessing child pornography. And the Department of Homeland Security accused him of downloading and, uh, possessing explicit images of children as young as toddlers...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. 18 months.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Fuck. I mean, babies, like, it's that's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Sick. During legal proceedings, Josh could not live at home because he was not allowed to be near his own children. I, I do remember his wife like speaking out in his defense, often during this time...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: It's like so cringe.
Em Schulz: Like you wouldn't believe. And it was also after, do you cover the show Counting On at all on this?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, no, not really, but, uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But I, I know I I meant to mention it earlier. It's where they like, take him out...
Em Schulz: Yeah. So after like half of the scandals, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: They got rid of Jim Bob and Josh, but they had a new show after 19 Kids and Counting was canceled. They called it Counting On. And it was...
Christine Schiefer: And it focused on some of the girls, right?
Em Schulz: They focused on this, it was mainly two of the girls, but it was really any of the siblings that, that were 18 or older were allowed to be on the show. And it included Josh's wife, but here's the other fucking drama...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, boy.
Em Schulz: In between him touching his sisters and this child pornography thing is right in the middle... Uh, it was right as the show was like already going to happen, I think, or like, the show had just been like green lit. And so it was like the worst time for like Josh to finally have his, like... To have another scandal. Uh, it was when the Ashley Madison scandal came out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I didn't even talk about the fucking Ashley Madison. That's not even in here. I like totally blanked on that.
Em Schulz: That's okay... He, he's a, he's a messy man. So it was right after. That was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That was crazy.
Christine Schiefer: The ir-... The irony of the Megyn Kelly interview with Jessa and Jill, when they were like, you'll never have, there's no more scandals after this. Like, it felt like weeks later, the Ashley Madison scandal came out, which if you don't know, Ashley Madison was a website truly meant for people to go online, make an account, and find people to cheat on their spouses with.
Christine Schiefer: Quick correction, is a website.
Em Schulz: Is still? Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Still very much active.
Em Schulz: Like, that's the whole point is like to go cheat on your partners...
Christine Schiefer: Like, just to give you an idea. Their slogan is, life is short. Have an affair.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sorry, I'm laughing out of like disbelief.
Christine Schiefer: It's outrageous.
Em Schulz: But, so there was some drama years ago now where a hacker broke into Ashley Madison, the website...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was, it was like a whole hacking group. Umm, let me pull up their name because, uh, the Impact Team. Yeah.
Em Schulz: The Impact Team. And they basically held the website hostage and said like, you, give us something in return, I'm assuming money or else we will, uh, release all of the back end login information of all the people who have accounts on Ashley Madison and we will basically rip your website apart because all these people will be found out by their spouses.
Christine Schiefer: And the the whole also point about this Ashley Madison, is that it's supposed to be under wraps...
Em Schulz: Completely anonymous.
Christine Schiefer: Secret anonymous. Like no one will ever find out. You know, that's the whole point. And so like this was suddenly saying, we're gonna blast everybody's email addresses out and just...
Em Schulz: Everyone can, everyone can look up like all the, the roster of people and they can see if their spouse was cheating on them.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm...
Em Schulz: So then the Ashley Madison scandal happens shortly after him, like touching his sisters...
Christine Schiefer: Sh...
Em Schulz: And the name, one of the biggest names to come off that list was Joshua J. Duggar. And so then there became this whole other thing where basically, when 19 Kids and Counting was canceled, then Counting On starts, the whole first episode is just the siblings and his wife reacting to the Ashley Madison scandal.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Where they're all in tears and they're all like, we were, like Anna was saying like, I never saw this coming. Which like, okay, like I'm sure maybe you didn't, but like he was also so slimy...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like it just feels like in hindsight, how did no one see it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, umm, but even his sisters were like, we went on television and fucking defended you and like we all backed you and like to know that you still... Like as you were in the middle of this scandal, you had a whole other scandal...
Christine Schiefer: You knew. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You... That you knew about and you weren't telling anyone. So then he had, so now he like, and everyone was like, Anna, you need to like leave him. Even the siblings were like, they, as we have discussed for the last two hours, so sorry, everybody. Umm, but they have, they were all very like, marriage is for life. It is a commitment...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: You do not get divorced. And a bunch of people were, a bunch of the siblings were now like old enough to have their own social media. A lot of them had, have been married. There's a whole other scandal we never even talked about, which was Jill, which she like, kind of started breaking away from the family. And it was the first real, umm, sibling to start kind of like...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Implying that things aren't as pretty as they seem at home. Umm, but a lot of people were now old enough to make their own opinions and they left the house so they didn't have to like play, you know, to the family anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And they were saying like, we, like I am pro-divorce. If he's cheating on you, leave, this is not what God would want for you. And so now there's like sides to the family being like, you need to leave him. And she fucking stood her ground and she was like, that's my man.
Christine Schiefer: Oh fuck off.
Em Schulz: And so then anyway, they stay together, they end up having another kid. They have like three more kids after this.
Christine Schiefer: [sucks teeth] Ugh.
Em Schulz: Umm, and every time like they'd announce a pregnancy, you could just hear the entire universe go, yay.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Like, we're so happy for you. Like, and during the Ashley Madison scandal, she was pregnant I think, or during the child pornography one...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: She was maybe also pregnant. Umm, but so anyway, the whole Ashley Madison thing happens and then the child pornography thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God!
Em Schulz: So, so then everyone was like, Anna now has to leave him. Right? 'Cause she has seven fucking kids with him.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like they are all babies and he could be doing something with them, like, you don't know. And anyway, I really went off on a tangent there, but I...
Christine Schiefer: I just feel like she was trapped. Like what else could she do?
Em Schulz: Well, she's also been... She's also been told her whole life that this is all she'll ever know. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She's trapped in an abusive fucking situation. It's like, how do you even...
Em Schulz: And it's, it, to this day, there's still a lot of back and forth on people's opinion of Anna because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, I bet.
Em Schulz: People are like, that's like, yes, you are in an abusive relationship and yes, you don't realize that you can get out because you've been told your whole life you can't operate without a man.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And like to a point where like, she lives with the Duggars still, or like lives on their property and like.
Christine Schiefer: Well and to think like you have all these children, like you need somebody to help you. Like you're kind of stuck.
Em Schulz: And she was... And she was told she'll never have to work, so how is she gonna like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Handle seven children and a house? So she like still lives on the Duggar property and like.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: But like, so a lot of people are like, we feel bad for you there, but at some point, like your maternal instincts have to like kick in...
Christine Schiefer: You need to hold some accountability here for, for on behalf of your kids. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, it's a, it's a, umm, it's a rocky topic, but a lot of people...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Have differing opinions on the Anna thing. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I don't, again, like a lot of this is so layered and like complicated. It's hard to know where you, where I even stand on some of it. Umm, but I do have some more fun facts about the Ashley Madison thing that. Umm...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know if you, I'm sure you know this already, but...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: For anybody who doesn't, umm, because I totally forgot to even put this whole section in, but basically, uh, this, it got leaked that he was one of the primary users and apparently, Ashley Madison has also had quite a few scandals in that, uh, it's known for sex workers to get on there and, you know, engage in sex work online. Umm...
Em Schulz: I'm glad you brought this up.
Christine Schiefer: With married men. And so it turns out, he was also paying for, umm, a guarantee, an affair guarantee, which costs 250 bucks, which is like, if he didn't have sex with someone, he'd get his money back.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he spent like over a thousand dollars on this website, uh, to meet with people...
Em Schulz: Well... He also had, umm, I think... I don't remember who it was, but there was a sex worker on there who ended up, I think, trying to sue him because...
Christine Schiefer: So, Danica, uh...
Em Schulz: There it is. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Danica Dillon, uh, she claimed that she had sex with Josh on two separate occasions. She was a sex worker and she said that he offered her $1,500 for sex, but it turned violent...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, something she did not consent to. And then he only paid her a thousand dollars and she ended up suing him for assaulting her to the point of causing physical and emotional injuries. And, uh, she, you know, asked for damages and the, uh... Oh God, it's upsetting... He paid her $1,500 for sex that she claimed was violent enough to make her feel like she was being raped. And, uh, sh-she ended up dropping the lawsuit. And the rumor is we don't really know, but the rumor is that, uh, you know, he paid her off basically, like they settled...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Outside of court. Umm, and then they linked his email to an OkCupid account...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And by the way, this whole time, he is working at, let me pull up the actual spot where he was working. Uh, he was working in DC...
Em Schulz: That's the FRC, the Family Research Council, I think.
Christine Schiefer: That's the one in DC, at the conservative lobbying group there. Uh, when all this was going on, and he made an, this is alleged because there's not real proof about it, but he used someone else's photo and created this Joe Smithson character and wrote like this weird bio. "I'm an executive in the city, I develop strategies, meet people, crunch numbers... "
Em Schulz: Eugh.
Christine Schiefer: And he wrote, I'm really good at humor. It's like, okay.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Nice try.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and he, he just wrote like the weirdest shit about like what he was looking for, uh, professional, well groomed, stylish, classy, casual jeans, muscular, petite, tall, like all the checks of what he was looking for. Umm, high sex drive...
Em Schulz: Ugh...
Christine Schiefer: Has a secret love nest, is disease-free and has natural breasts.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and the guy whose photo he used actually sued him because...
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
Christine Schiefer: People would Google him and the fucking... This whole thing would come up. And so, people, he was not getting jobs because people were like, oh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He's like this...
Em Schulz: A creep.
Christine Schiefer: Creepy sex offender guy.
Em Schulz: Also a a lot of people think, so it was like a big thing and a big arc in the show when he moved to DC and now a lot of people are like, maybe he just wanted to get the fuck outta town where nobody knew him...
Christine Schiefer: Hell yeah.
Em Schulz: So he could just cheat his wife and do whatever he wanted and...
Christine Schiefer: He like immediately created all these accounts, was paying thousands of dollars. Umm, and so that all happened like... Yeah, exactly, well before, uh, the child pornography FBI charges came out. Umm, so yeah, basically his wife is, uh, you know, was defending him throughout all this. And during the legal proceedings, he actually couldn't live at home because he was not allowed near his own children. He stayed with a pastor and had to be monitored by GPS anytime he went out, he was only allowed to go to work, doctor's appointments and church... Wow. So kind of them.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Josh was ultimately convicted on two charges of receiving and possessing child sexual abuse material. And before sentencing, Josh's family wrote letters to the judge pleading for a light sentence. Michelle wrote, "Joshua has a tender heart and he's compassionate towards others." And his wife claimed in a letter to the court that he's the kindest man she knows. Ugh. So Josh faced a maximum 20-year sentence, and on May 5th, 2022, he was sentenced to 12 and a half years, which he is currently serving in federal prison. And he will not be eligible for parole until he serves 10 years of his sentence. His family continues to support him and movements like the Quiverfull Movement continue to endorse the Duggar family as an example of living a Godly life. And you know, there's so much more to this, like you said, like I was reminded right before we started recording, of the transphobic robo calls that Michelle would make where like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You'd pick up the phone and it'd be like, hi, like a pre-recorded, this... My name is Michelle Duggar, I have some shocking news to share with you... She has this like weird high-pitched voice. She's like...
Em Schulz: She does.
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you, men. And I said, you heard that right, men are going into female-only spaces and they are sexual deviants. And it's like your son...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is like a rapist... What are you talking about that these sexual deviants?
Em Schulz: Especially like, and then that, I think that might have also been where a comment about like his, well no, I don't, I, they might be different conversations, but a bunch of queer people came out and they were like, oh, so like we live like nefarious deviant lives, but like you can cheat on your wife and touch your sisters...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And like look at child pornography, but we're the awful people?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So it was just like, there was a lot of back and forth of like, just, you couldn't be a bigger hypocrite.
Christine Schiefer: I mean really, like, it's almost, if it weren't so fucked up, it would be comical. Like how outrageously backwards, all of this is, umm...
Em Schulz: And this did lead to a bunch of the siblings again, who are now old enough to like have their own opinions or they're married off and all this, so they can say whatever they want...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They have posted, like, uh, or some of them have posted about their opinions on the trial and have like straight up said like, it's good that Josh is in jail and like... So at least not all of them feel like they have to still protect him...
Christine Schiefer: That's good. That's good.
Em Schulz: They said like... They're like, this is the right thing to do. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's good. That's comforting at the very least. Yeah, man, it's a shit show, dude.
Em Schulz: Uh... It's wild. And...
Christine Schiefer: It's wild. I mean, it's crazy town.
Em Schulz: Well, if anyone ever wants to hear me, uh, spew more scandals about like Jill Duggar kind of not leaving the faith, but like definitely causing waves in her family...
Christine Schiefer: Well, now I wanna know. So I'm...
Em Schulz: I'll tell you about that. That'll be the After Chat. How about that?
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's a great idea. Oh my God, yes!
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: A hundred percent. Let's do it.
Em Schulz: If two hours of Duggar information wasn't enough for you...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Please head over to Patreon and, uh, listen to our After Chat where I will be talking about Jill and Jinger Duggar's escapes from the IBLP.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I can't wait. Happy birthday, Em!
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine, I, this was the, this was so lovely. I know it was three hours and I'm sorry for everybody, but I'm also not 'cause, of all, I feel like a birthday episode...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like people probably saw it coming.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Wow. You really have been holding out on that topic for so long.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And I, it was like in February, I was like, we gotta get this fucking rolling. And so I start, I've been like obsessively watching like YouTube, and I couldn't talk to you about it, which was like so painful. So...
Em Schulz: We finally have something to, to talk about.
Christine Schiefer: I am so happy.
Em Schulz: It's so weird to hear you saying, oh, in an interview, Jinger said... I'm like, what?!
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. I know. I'm so excited. And I feel like I'm just coming to the dark side with Vanderpump Rules with 19 Kids and Counting. I I have no self-control anymore.
Em Schulz: I, it's beyond me... Well, okay. Well, wow, you really, this was such a, such a, such a good call.
Christine Schiefer: Yay!
Em Schulz: Well done.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you.
Em Schulz: Uh and also, I'm so glad he's rotting in jail. I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, fuck that guy, man.
Em Schulz: Fuck that guy. Umm, all right, well, I, I guess we'll see you over at Patreon, folks, and I hope everyone else has a very lovely, uh, birthday. If you're an early June baby, uh, happy birthday, and we hope you're celebrating right. And treat yourself to a present, because I'll always endorse that and eat a lot of cake.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink and eat cake.