E328 A Wicked Birthday Card and a Vampirarchy
TOPICS: THE HIGHGATE VAMPIRE, THE MURDER OF ELLEN SHERMAN
Top left photo is of David Farrant and top right is of Sean Manchester. Bottom two images are of Ellen Sherman.
Grab your Kentucky-legal vape pens because episode 328 is chock-full of frenemies, boats, ex-lovers and Sperry's! First Em takes us across the pond to cover the Highgate Vampire, the Degrassi of paranormal stories. Then Christine takes us to Connecticut for the story of the murder of Ellen Sherman and how a horror movie helped crack the case. And Karen 3000 is as impatient for her grog as ever... and that's why we drink!
Transcript
[intro music]
Em Schulz: Christine's getting high everybody.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just a PSA.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up. [laughter] Listen...
Em Schulz: I'm watching her before my very eyes get...
Christine Schiefer: Things are changing around here. Not really.
Em Schulz: Like, like the receptors in her brain.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Here's the thing, I found this legal weed. Okay. And I mean legal, 'cause I live in Kentucky...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Normal weed is not legal.
Em Schulz: Oh. I totally forgot. I was like, why are you...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was like... You were saying like, "Oh, I, I hope it's okay." And I was like, "I don't give a shit."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: I totally forgot you're not in California.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. It is, uh, not legal here recreationally or medically. Isn't that fun for me? Uh...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And uh, I found through some podcast ad, I don't know, like THC 8 and THC 9, which are like lower. I, I don't know. There's like some... It feels like a loophole because it still has like the THC effects but it's just less.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So I started using them as like little sleep gummies at night and they work wonders and it has helped me cut back on my drinking, which is great 'cause like...
Em Schulz: Oh nice.
Christine Schiefer: If I'm going to bed, I don't need to like keep drinking. I mean listen, you know, it's fine. My, my therapist... This is what my therapist is for.
Em Schulz: By the way, this is not an ad. This is all we've talked it talk about so far. And it's sounds like...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: No, it's not. It's not, it's not. And I haven't even said a brand, I'm not going to say a brand because I'm, you know, whatever. Umm, but uh, so I found these fun little like THC 8 like, uh, I don't know, gummies and like this little vape pen that Blaise keeps making fun of. 'Cause I'm like, "Oh, let me grab my vape."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It looks like a little office highlighter or something.
Christine Schiefer: It does, doesn't it? And then I, I've been labeling them.
Em Schulz: Jack Herer?
Christine Schiefer: That's the strain of it apparently. But then I put little symbols for what it does.
Em Schulz: Oh, well.
Christine Schiefer: So this one apparently is good for creativity. So I put a smiley face... My label maker doesn't have that many symbols. So I put a smiley face and a pencil.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, this is the most like mom version of getting stoned.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's unhinged. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, let me use my label maker to organize how it makes me feel.
Christine Schiefer: To label my vapes. [laughter] And like, to be clear, I was never... It's probably obvious, never a weed smoker. Like I just didn't, I drank way too much, but like, I never really smoked. I was never against it. I just never did. And so the first time I did was in Colorado where it was legal and I got w-way effed up and I accidentally took way too much of an edible. I was like, never again. So it's taken me like almost a decade to like really ease back.
Em Schulz: Come back from that?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It was like really [laughter] traumatizing. So, I'm back baby. Umm, I'm redoing my office Em, umm, I have my Mothman collection back there. Umm, I put a mini fridge up here with all my, with all my water beverages. I mean, it's...
Em Schulz: Yeah, you said, you said, "Oh, let me get my Liquid Death from my corner." And I was like, "What corner are you talking about?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know. I was gonna say from my new mini fridge, but I was like, "I wanna announce that on the podcast. So I'm gonna say corner."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Is it the same mini fridge from your old house that kept the...
Christine Schiefer: No, we gave... We... That one got...
Em Schulz: Backs.
Christine Schiefer: I just like couldn't move it with it. So, umm, I ordered a new one off walmart.com. Sorry. Also not an ad. Umm...
Em Schulz: Is that... So is that why you're not sitting on your couch anymore when you record? Because...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So...
Em Schulz: You've got a whole wall now?
Christine Schiefer: Well, so here's the thing. I've also been working on that corner.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: And I put up some shelves and some pictures and I've been trying to put my books up and I'm slowly building that together. Is that Junie? Oh, there he is. Hi. June.
Em Schulz: Is that a dead cat in the middle of my room?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yep. That's Juniper for you. Umm, but so when I record Beach Too Sandy, we film it like with cameras.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so I usually sit there and so every time I would have to like swap all the cords and since we do it over Zoom, so I was like, you know what? I'm gonna have... And That's Why We Drink recording station.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which has fun things like this.
[music]
Em Schulz: Oh God.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then I'm gonna have my corner over there for, uh, Beach Too Sandy. So.
Em Schulz: Wow. Very nice.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, it's... I'm, I think I'm thriving. I don't know. As the episode goes on and I keep trying out this fun little machine, you let me know if I'm getting a little too outta control. Umm, how are you Em?
Em Schulz: Uh, well [laughter], uh, I'm fine. I'll be the exact same amount of not stoned by the end of this. Umm, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, man.
Em Schulz: I only know that PSA where like the girl's like melting into the couch. That'll be you by the end of this.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Which by the way, I was always like, that looks lovely.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it was great.
Christine Schiefer: Why do they want me to avoid that? I was like...
Em Schulz: It sounds like a good nap.
Christine Schiefer: The way my brother taught me the two strains, because he has a medical marijuana card in Ohio is, umm, so there's Sativa and Indica.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And Indica is like in the couch.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you're like, it's like the mellow like make you sleepy kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, that's, that's how I learned. Fun fact, everyone.
Em Schulz: Well that, that's clearly what that melting girl was on, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. I always think of that. I'm like, yeah, in into the couch physically.
Em Schulz: Umm, other than that, I'm fine. I've, I not much to report here. I don't think.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I got a present from your girlfriend. I got a package today and it said from Allison and I was like, Huh?. And I opened it 'cause I was like, oh she just went to Iceland, like maybe it's a souvenir. And then I opened it, I was like, this is amazing. And then I read the card and it's for my birthday so [laughter] Oops. But when this comes out as we messed up last week as this comes out, I think like in a week or two is our birthday.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, it sort of counts. But she sent the sweetest little card, it says have a wicked birthday with like this creepy demon on it and I love it so much. [laughter] And then I'm sorry, look at these freaking matches that are like little elephant guy, like these cool vintage looking matches. And then Em...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: A lucid dreaming kit.
Em Schulz: I was with her when she got that. That was from the Renaissance Fair.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em I was like, wow, Em's, if, if Em was not involved in this, Em has someone, what do you say, run for your money. How do you say that phrase?
Em Schulz: It sounds right.
Christine Schiefer: Giving you a run for your... Al's giving you a run for your money with the, with the gift giving. Because I gasped when I opened this.
Em Schulz: She did tell me all about these matches and I never got to see them. So she and I kept being like...
Christine Schiefer: They're beautiful.
Em Schulz: Well I didn't know what was going on. I just kept being like, "You sent her matches for her birthday?"
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: I was like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I've gotten a lot of matches for gifts recently and it's the best 'cause they're like just the most beautiful container and then you can replace the matches.
Em Schulz: Oh, I didn't even think about that.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody has to know that. That's not the original. Yeah. These are so cute. So, thank you Al.
Em Schulz: You can also make it a little, a little tchotchke box? I love a tchotchke box.
Christine Schiefer: Or a little tchotchke box. Umm, and, but this, this little kit has like a...
Em Schulz: You can put all your little vapes in there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, come on now we're talking.
Em Schulz: Which is the digital matchbook? [laughter] It's the digital matches. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Who needs a match? [laughter] That's a great point Em.
Em Schulz: Umm, no, I was with her for the Renaissance Fair when she got, uh...
Christine Schiefer: God it's so cool. I mean, it has dream tea and, oh, anyway, I just, I just saw it on my desk, so thank you Al pal. Umm, that was, you're the first birthday gift I got Al. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Uh she's been really on a roll recently with her, umm, being productive.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: She's...
Christine Schiefer: She, like she mailed it out like a month before my birthday, I know she's traveling and stuff, but I was like, damn...
Em Schulz: She's having a bit of a crisis these days with um getting tasks done, and so I think she have like... She was in a panic state for...
Christine Schiefer: One of those, like... Yeah. Fell swoop.
Em Schulz: She was like, I need to get everything done because then I... Because then I'll relax. And, and it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Don't you love that then you need your Indica, you know, to really relax. That's what...
Em Schulz: God.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's what I'll mail her for her birthday.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, Allison could probably use some indi, indicouch. I think...
Christine Schiefer: Indica.
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah, no, she's uh, she's been trying very hard. She texted me when we were like in Boston or Florida and she was like, I already got all your birthday presents. And I was like, Whoa. Like that's not for a while.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Oh, I hope I didn't just spoil all your gift. Oh no, you, you already knew about these. Okay, good, good.
Em Schulz: Allison, if you got me matches. Well I'm sure they look very pretty apparently, but...
Christine Schiefer: Em's like, How do I go about this delicately?
Em Schulz: I don't know if I want matches. Please. Umm, but no, I, she seems to be really on top, of it.
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: And she said she's, I'm excited to see what she got me. She said this is the year that she feels the most confident in the gifts because she's always kind of guessed before. So...
Christine Schiefer: The, okay. She's putting a lot of pressure on though. 'Cause if it's not, then you're gonna be like, really this is the bar.
Em Schulz: If she was really confident about the matches. I'm so sorry Allison [laughter] I was like, I was like...
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh, about matches for you. I was like. I was like, that's a great gift for me. I gasped when I saw those. They're beautiful.
Em Schulz: The design is very you.
Christine Schiefer: I love matches for like that's a big gift,. Em, you gotta get with the times. It's good candles and they're decorative.
Em Schulz: Uh, we honestly, we have so many candles that need to get lit that a box of matches wouldn't be the worst thing that I get for a birthday, uh... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: See you're coming around.
Em Schulz: Anyway. I I'm doing good. Uh, nothing really to report here. Umm, I'm, it's about to get busy, so like I'm really trying to appreciate this like week I have at home and then it's like, I feel like I'm traveling nonstop until like the end of summer and then back on tour. Yeah.
Em Schulz: RJ's wedding, Vegas. Umm, what else you got?
Em Schulz: Umm, so I have, I have the Philippines, which umm, is overwhelming to me because I don't do well with international travel. So that's, uh, bigger in my mind than it actually is. Umm, and it's one of my best friends getting married, which is also a, a big deal for me. Umm, what else? Then I've got, we've got Vegas, but that's very quick. Like I think I'm only there for like 24 hours, it seems. Yeah. And then I'm going straight to the Philippines and then, uh, when we get back, oh, then it's my birthday. But my mom's in town for my birthday.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Was not fully invited to my birthday by the way. She just is attending. Umm, she just said I'll be there. Umm, and then after that I have like a bunch of people coming into town, so it's really not gonna be like, like I have, umm, this is so gross. More health stuff, but I have two surgeries on my stupid legs in June.
Christine Schiefer: What? Oh no.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: They're taking them off?
Em Schulz: I'm taking, I'm taking some gross veins out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, oh yes. We have talked about this.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, so I have that at the same time that I have friends coming into town, so I'm wondering how that's gonna go. And then in July, I'm going home for a while. Uh, I'm also stopping in Florida to see my grandma. And then in August, oh, I'm seeing you at some point in June. And then in August we've, I've got something else going on. And then we're gonna be back on tour as soon as you know so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Yeah. I'm going to Sweden in August and, umm, Beach Too Sandy has six or eight live shows it... Throughout the summer.
Em Schulz: I feel very nervous for you. Oh, at some point I wanna come to one of your shows, so that'll be on the docket too.
Christine Schiefer: That would be so fun if you could, yeah, I'll send you the list. Umm, by the way, folks, shout out beachtoosandy.com/... I don't know, something just go there 'cause there's tickets. But yeah, we're going to a lot of cities that, umm, Em and I haven't gone to in a while and a lot of places that we have, so it'll be fun.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I feel like I've got a lot of things coming up and so I'm, I'm trying to appreciate the like seven...
Christine Schiefer: The quiet. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Days I have at home. And then it'll really be a bit of a nightmare for a while.
Christine Schiefer: That's good. Seven days is a good like period. Like a good long period.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Although we are recording a lot during that time, so I feel like it's, uh, I don't know how much relaxing I'm doing. I'll just be researching recording re... So anyway, I'm, I'm just happy to be at home physically 'cause I'm about to be at a lot of hotels so...
Christine Schiefer: Wee.
Em Schulz: Anyway. It will, it will figure itself out. It always does.
Christine Schiefer: We'll survive.
Em Schulz: With that I've got you a story today, Christine, which I honestly, I feel like it's, hmm. I mean it's, it's a, it's a good old classic story, but there's like, two of the main characters are frenemies and like really hate each other. Like, I don't understand what's hap... There's like, to this day they have beef and one of them's dead. Like they...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what?
Em Schulz: They they started as friends and then they like very obviously broke up and like, and then just like very publicly hated each after that.
Christine Schiefer: Is this like a Degrassi episode? I'm so confused.
Em Schulz: It feels like it. Yeah. So we'll get into it. This is, uh, the story of the Highgate Vampire.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: High as in Christine, uh, gate as in a fence and vampire as in a vampire.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: And, uh, but Highgate, it's the name of a cemetery in London. So this is, uh, during the British Satanic panic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, was that a different time?
Em Schulz: Uh, it was like the, uh, 1970s, so I guess not maybe like right before our Satanic panic. Umm, so the British has had several panics hysterias, uh, over the, over the course of history. But by the 20th century, that's when we got names like Aleister Crowley and Arthur Edward Waite and, umm, so this era of like British occultism came after the first wave of spiritualism.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And it led to a lot of accusations about local satanic cults. So by the way, there is like no real evidence for these cults in a lot of spaces, but...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: They were constantly getting blamed for any wrongdoings going on.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, and this I think is so wild, is that even when Satanic rituals and satanic cults would be blamed for things, the police never had to go looking for evidence because they would say it was too dangerous for them. Because apparently...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh come on.
Em Schulz: The, there was "a very real danger of police being hypnotized."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: That was their reasoning.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they're like, "We don't even need to find evidence to know this is wrong."
Christine Schiefer: Oh come on.
Em Schulz: "And if we go look for it, it's too troublesome."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So despite having no evidence, the police were still adamant that the rumors were true that Satanic cults were just sweeping the nation.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, in 1954, there was, uh, I think it was like a magazine or like a, a weekly called Witchcraft Today.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and it was...
Christine Schiefer: I want that.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I want it so bad.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, it was published by Gerald Gardner and it promoted Wicca, which even Wiccans during the Satanic panic, they were speaking out against Satanists and Black Magic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow.
Em Schulz: And they were, uh 'cause that's...
Christine Schiefer: They were like, you're giving us a bad name probably.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I mean, still to this day, a lot of people clump all witchcraft together.
Christine Schiefer: Right, exactly.
Em Schulz: And I know, umm, my own stepmom was taught me at a very young age, there's a difference between black magic and white magic.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And a good witch and a bad witch. And so I think a lot of Wiccans would like write into Witchcraft Today, or would be promoted in Witchcraft Today as, as advertising for white magic or good magic.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, on top of that, so this was during the, I said it was during the '70s, but it was during like the '50s to '70s. So, umm, I think earlier definitely than...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Our Satanic Panic. On top of that, cemeteries were being vandalized and graves were being dug up, and it was being blamed on black magic. Uh, despite zero evidence.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: By 1964, police said that there were over 200 cases involving black magic and satanic cults again, even though there was very little evidence.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, it was too dangerous, Em.
Em Schulz: Uh, uh no one wants to get hypnotized.
Christine Schiefer: What do you expect? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Especially with the police.
Christine Schiefer: Them to go get hypnotized. Are you kidding?
Em Schulz: Uh, this however, led to people associating the British, uh, the 200 cases of cemetery vandalism in the area. This had people associating British cemeteries with Satanic rituals.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And that brings us to Highgate Cemetery, which is in, I hope I'm saying it right. Islington. Islington in London. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't know. It would, it wouldn't be Islington like, like the British Isles.
Em Schulz: Oh, I saw most sources just said London, and then on on one I found the name. And so...
Christine Schiefer: And you just had to be specific.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And wrong, apparently at the same time. So.
Christine Schiefer: No, I mean, I, I don't know. I really don't know. So.
Em Schulz: In the, in the general London area...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: There's a cemetery called Highgate. Umm, fun fact, this cemetery is where Carl Marx is buried.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, it's also where Douglas Adams, who wrote Hitchhike... "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Oh, I didn't know he was dead. I guess that's probably an old book.
Em Schulz: And probably the most important person to be buried there is Roland Hill who invented the Modern Postal Service.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: So...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's good for him.
Christine Schiefer: Roland.
Em Schulz: Roland.
Christine Schiefer: Classic.
Em Schulz: Uh, so Highgate is split into two parts and there's a road right down, uh, the middle of it called Swains Lane. And in 1839 is when the oldest part of the cemetery was opened. And, uh, up until or since 1839, over 100,000 people have been buried there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: Umm, the cemetery got damaged and overrun over the years, but especially after World War II and the area became notorious for kind of troublemakers, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Umm just because it was an overgrown cemetery. Umm, they would, teenagers would damage property, they would allegedly even drag bodies out of coffins.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, well, I mean, I guess if people are digging up the graves, then like the next step would be opening coffins.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine you're digging up a grave to not open it...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: To not open the coffin. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like what's the point? Yeah. Umm, I mean, not that there's a point.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. You know what?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wasn't involved. I swear to God, I was really busy that day, whatever day it was.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Em was there and can attest to my whereabouts.
Em Schulz: Oh, this is the beginning of our frenemy breakup. I think.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So all these rabble rousers, trouble making teens, umm, they would damage property. As I said, they were dragging out bodies, I assume to swipe the jewelry off of them or something, but a lot of people thought that it was to drag them out for sacrifice rituals or blood rituals. Um. In the 1960s, two of these teen occultists, as they're being called, they spent a lot of time in Highgate, and their names were David and Sean.
Christine Schiefer: What year was this? Sorry.
Em Schulz: This was in the 1960s.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: They were two of the kids that, you know, participated in tomfoolery if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Roused, roused some rabble. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know what it's all about.
Christine Schiefer: I gotcha. Wink.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's almost as if you were there, Christine. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: No. You know what, Em?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. You're literally getting high right now. So I don't trust anything you're saying about being a...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: A good citizen.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I might as well be a fucking Satanist, I guess. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: In the '60s you would've been, they would've done a PSA about you.
Christine Schiefer: If you ask our grandmas. Yeah. Yeah. It would be bad.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so anyway, two of the teenagers from the 1960s that were often in Highgate were David and Sean. And I want you to remember those names because they're the two who are the Elphaba and Glinda to this story, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Now we're talking.
Em Schulz: They don't make it, unfortunately.
Christine Schiefer: You know you said good witch, bad witch, and I kept my mouth shut. But then you just said their names and I'm really excited.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Didn't even occur to me I use a witch reference. Oh my God, I'm so smart. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You are. Yeah, I guess I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh. Hmm. Moving on.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just saying like, who noticed it?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. You're right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they formed a a group together, which this does feel like something we would do in the '60s if we were already hanging out in graveyards, which we've agreed early before this episode that we would do.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, absolutely.
Em Schulz: They formed a group together called the British Occult Society. Which like, we could create an occult society.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I love it.
Em Schulz: We could figure that out.
Christine Schiefer: I think we kind of have already.
Em Schulz: That's an excellent point actually.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, And That's Why We Drink Occult Society for sure.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They formed this group and they eventually got, uh, I guess it was where people could send in reports of, you know, spooky things. That's kind of the vibe I got. I don't know the official mission statement of the British Occult Society. I don't know if they had one, but eventually they're getting reports of entities around town, one of them being a hypnotizing dark figure at Highgate.
Christine Schiefer: Don't tell the police.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, I feel like...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: A cop is the one who reported it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "They're hypnotizing me!"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, and this is in 1969, David decides that he's going to stay at Highgate and investigate for the night. And just before midnight he sees this figure himself.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: He says that it's dark, it's walking by him. It's just like this kind of shadow figure. It's seven feet tall. Its eyes were inhuman.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And they were in fact hypnotizing him. And he said he had to break eye contact to shake the, the spell off. And then the figure vanished.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: After this experience, David wrote into the local paper and asked other readers to share their experiences at Highgate. Which, what a topical thing to do if like, there's like all these stories of, you know, you know, bad kids at Highgate, you know, they're seeing something at night or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They're trying to scare each other. There could very easily be a wave of stories come in of, "This is something I saw there."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah it's like, it's like pre-Reddit. You couldn't just make a forum online, so now you gotta use a newspaper.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. What a, I'm kind of, I shouldn't be mind blown at that, but yeah the newspaper's just original Reddit crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Sort of.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so he asked other people to share their experiences from Highgate and a bunch of people wrote in and they said that they had also seen the exact same figure he was talking about. Another person wrote in saying that they saw a tall man and a hat who apparently would just disappear. He would walk into the walls of the cemetery. Uh, and people just kind of wrote in what they had seen. Soon enough. People were writing in though, that there was a particular entity there called the Highgate Ghost. And he made front page news eventually after so many people had written in. So...
Christine Schiefer: The ghost did?
Em Schulz: The ghost, there was, it was called Spooked and it, it was, or Spooks. And it was the headline of the front, front page news all about the Highgate Ghost. Locals had multiple different names for it called the White Ghost, Mad Arthur and the Wild Egg Man.
Christine Schiefer: I like that one the best.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I like that one too. It sounds like a Pokemon or something.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It does.
Em Schulz: So some people wrote in that there were other ghosts as well in Highgate. Umm, so one was said to chase women, which is terrifying.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: And maybe not a ghost.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right.
Em Schulz: Another is, say it with me, A Lady in White.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Always.
Em Schulz: And she would try to lure people into the water nearby.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And when she would get into the water, the water would not move and soon she would disappear into the water herself.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Uh, the main character though was this ghost of a man in a hat.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And David and Sean looked into this entity and I don't know their research protocol...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But ultimately they determined that this was not a ghost this was a vampire.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my mistake.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, me too. I'm like, Ooh. How did that happen?
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: Uh, one of their main sources that they worked off of was the fact that several animals in the area, like foxes and all that were being found dead around town with neck wounds.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And it looked like the neck wounds were causing them to be completely drained of their blood.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp." Uh, oh.
Em Schulz: In February of 1970, uh, the local paper, you know that the reporters are going crazy for this with all these articles coming in.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The local paper wrote an article called, Does a Vampire Walk in Highgate. And in the article Sean said, "This is not just a vampire, my friends, this is a king vampire from Romania."
Christine Schiefer: What?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I think Sean...
Christine Schiefer: Is a little...
Em Schulz: Had a flair for the dramatic. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah...
Em Schulz: S-sounds a little off his rock or to me in that way, but... Okay, I don't know, I can't say yes or no I guess.
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: Uh, he said it's a king vampire from Romania, which a king vampire sounds like a type of spider or something like...
Christine Schiefer: It does.
Em Schulz: Like oh, a king vampire, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Don't let it bite you.
Em Schulz: It, it sounds to me that this really was like the king of vampires or something...
Christine Schiefer: Like maybe it's...
Em Schulz: Like a powerful vampire.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like the concept of like, it's, uh... Oh, my god, I was gonna say rat king, but I feel like maybe that's not a good analogy. I don't know.
Em Schulz: But in the, in the world of vampire hierarchies...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like he's...
Em Schulz: I actually called a vampirarchy but...
Christine Schiefer: Vampirarchy... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: That's a good one, Em, you know.
Em Schulz: I am the smartest one of the two of us.
Christine Schiefer: That is true, that is true. I say it all the time.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So this king vampire, however he may be or came to be known, he apparently has a bunch of supporters and uh these, these fans of him, they helped him move to England in the 1700s...
Christine Schiefer: Well, that was nice.
Em Schulz: That's the, that's the story we're going with.
Christine Schiefer: They like carried his couch up the stairs and everything...
Em Schulz: Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: It was a good friend, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, umm, I'm wondering like, did he go to bed in a coffin and not wake up, and so they all carried his coffin to England.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, we're his friends, we should really uh...
Em Schulz: Couldn't they wait till it was like night time and he could wake up and the sun wouldn't be there, and he would just fly to England, like why did they have to bring him there?
Christine Schiefer: I'm telling you maybe he had a heavy futon, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, hopefully... I know exactly where he put that futon, by the way. Because the theory then goes that once he got to England, he moved to the London's West End. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Good for him.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I wonder what his Zillow looked to like before he got there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I wish I could know.
Em Schulz: Sean believed that these grave desecrations and the vandalism going on in the cemetery were rituals by his supporters to bring the king vampire back, which like, I thought you brought him here.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, come on, make up your mind.
Em Schulz: Bring him back, was he dead, how did he die?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe, maybe it's, maybe bring in a... Maybe they meant bring him back to Romania...
Em Schulz: But they brought him to England...
Christine Schiefer: I know. Hmm. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Sean, I need clarity here.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe... Okay, hear me out, maybe the vampire's friends are not vampires or his supporters, and so they don't live forever, so they keep dying out and the new ones have to step in and so they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait...
Em Schulz: Yeah, maybe like, like, like a new um... Like a new e-board got together and they were like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: We actually don't like what the last people did.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like we're making some changes. Yeah, exactly. That makes sense, right guys? [laughter]
Em Schulz: So in this king vampire's fraternity, they all got together for a chapter meeting and agreed that they were gonna make some, some...
Christine Schiefer: Go back to Romania...
Em Schulz: Executive changes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. As I was looking through these notes, I gotta tell you, it did not make much sense...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So I'm just reporting the news here.
Christine Schiefer: I like, I'm following perfectly. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Great. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So uh yeah, apparently, everything that had been going on in the cemetery in the last few years was clearly the king vampire's supporters, and they were trying to bring him back with these rituals that they were performing in this overgrown cemetery. Sean said that now that he knows, apparently with confidence, that the king vampire is here and the rituals must have worked for so much, tomfoolery to have happened in the cemetery...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Which like, I feel like if he were back they... Okay, whatever. Um. Sean said, now that he's officially back with no public statement or anything, he just said, well, now we have to get rid of the king vampire, and the only way to do that is to, "exorcise the vampire in the traditional and approved manner".
Christine Schiefer: Is that... a stake through the heart?
Em Schulz: So that's what I... Yes, yes. But apparently, there's more to it, which I did not know, I always thought, stake through the heart bada bing bada boom, one two three.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Apparently, I was wrong...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: This is the traditional manner, drive... This is a quote of his, "drive a stake through his heart with one blow, just after dawn, between Friday and Saturday, chop his head off with a grave digger's shovel and burn what remains."
Christine Schiefer: Okay, my guess was separate the body parts and burn them. For some reason, that was my next guess, so I was sort of on to something.
Em Schulz: It's because as we figured out earlier, you were there. You were definitely there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. [laughter]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But also...
Em Schulz: You're like, I have this weird vision...
Christine Schiefer: It's so weird. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I have the most accurate answer for...
Christine Schiefer: It's so weird, I'm holding this shovel and... Oh, my God, no. [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's, I'm holding this vampires head and I, I don't know where he came from...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. It's the weirdest thing.
Em Schulz: So according to Sean, quote, "this is what the clergy did centuries ago, but today we'd be breaking the law." So we can't just to chopping around heads and stabbing people on the heart anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man!
Em Schulz: So, of course, this was Sean's opinion that this is what we should do, but other people's opinions, including an actual minister who... I don't know his life story, but he was an actual minister and then became a vampire exorcist at one point didn't, didn't know that was a real thing. But um even people like him were saying, "Um. This is not a vampire case, I don't know what Sean's talking about." Like so...
Christine Schiefer: And Sean is literally referencing the clergy in his argument, so it's like now the clergy is like, I don't think so. Which is not a good sign for you.
Em Schulz: Exactly, he's like, "This is what they did", and they're like mm... But okay. But as someone who's exorcised actual vampire, which I'd like to know his ex-expertise...
Christine Schiefer: That's gonna be another episode. Yeah.
Em Schulz: As someone who claims to have actually exorcised vampires, he's saying "This is not a vampire case."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Another skeptic wrote this, uh I don't know if it's really scathing, but it's certainly passive aggressive.
Christine Schiefer: Okay even better.
Em Schulz: He said this, he said this about Sean, he said, "The British Occult Society is to be congratulated on fighting a brave last ditch battle, but alas, it's too late by at least three generations."
Christine Schiefer: [Gasps]. Oh man.
Em Schulz: I like that he inserted brave into that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Nothing more condescending.
Christine Schiefer: It's so condescending. Yes, Sean, you've been so brave now step aside. You've been such a brave young lad.
Em Schulz: Didn't I call you brave for something for a show.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was very rude. I don't remember though.
Em Schulz: What did I say? Oh, I was like, "It's so brave that you'll just wear that."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, we were literally in the car on the way to the show, Em was like, "It's so brave of you to wear whatever, to a show." Like you're such an ass.
Em Schulz: It was probably the funniest thing I said all night I think.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um I was like "Oh, so you're gonna wear that?" No.
Christine Schiefer: That is so brave of you.
Em Schulz: As I walk out in like sweat pants and a hoodie, like we're...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, so despite the many skeptics, again, Sean being like, This isn't a vampire, I wonder if they were skeptics who believed in vampires, but we're like, This isn't one, or if they were just like, This is... Vampires...
Christine Schiefer: This is all bologna. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like your best guess is a vampire, and you're saying it with your whole chest.
[lalaughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, so despite the many skeptics, uh many do agree with Sean, so there's a real back and forth of like team Sean and vampires, team this isn't a vampire. And David, who at the time seems to be very pro-Sean...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He even says, I am prepared to pursue it taking whatever means necessary so we can all rest.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] oh.
Em Schulz: And this is the first sign of things getting a little messy because David later recants this and says he was kidding to the interviewer.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's, it is a hilarious joke if he was kidding.
Em Schulz: The... F-Funnier than my brave comment for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Barely but but a little bit funnier. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So uh anyway, at the time, he allegedly was very, you know this is a vampire, and we're gonna put this thing to rest. So Sean and David, they get interviewed on TV about this, this is how involved the town is about this stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: And of course, it's on a Friday, the 13th. And apparently, right before they went on, the camera men clutched throat and passed out...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, clutched his own throat. I thought you meant clutched Sean's throat, I was like a true crime here we come. Okay...
Em Schulz: No clutched his own throat as if like a vampire bit him and he passed out.
Christine Schiefer: And he's carrying that heavy camera, you know, that probably shattered everywhere.
Em Schulz: Oh and it was from the '70s so expensive...
Christine Schiefer: So expensive oh.
Em Schulz: So then they had to get a second camera man, so e-eventually I guess he was fine, but everyone was a little rattled at that... Like, what are the odds? And he uh... And David said, "That was kind of odd that we were gonna get interviewed and then this guy like just fell over, but on top of that, before this interview, we were getting a bunch of death threats for Satanic cults, from Satanic cults for exposing their work.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: One of the letters he got was written in blood with a bunch of symbols all over it, and it said, "By your interference with the work of our high order, you have invoked the wrath of Lord Hadit... Hadit?, Hadit, by his element and the power of the seven-fold cross, you shall now be destroyed. This is decreed by His grace, and this wish will be fulfilled through our order, be it thus so. Written in blood."
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say that's a lot of words to write out in blood.
Em Schulz: It's really... I appreciate the floweriness, but like for a Satanic cult, I feel like you could have just kind of been boom to the point.
Christine Schiefer: You could have just put a symbol and everyone would've been like, ah, you know.
Em Schulz: Like that's so much blood to write out.
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: You couldn't, you couldn't just try to keep it concise...
Christine Schiefer: Concise.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I don't know. So during this interview, uh af... So they've gotten these threats they get to their spot, it's on Friday to 13th, this guy passes out as if someone bit him, now they're doing the interview, and during this interview, Sean says, "Oh well, David actually plans to stay the night in Highgate and slay the vampire."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's something like you and I would literally...
Em Schulz: Joke about for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Joke about, but also like if one of us did that to the other, like talk about like a friendship ender or like at least a...
Em Schulz: On live television.
Christine Schiefer: Like that is... That's not cool.
Em Schulz: Well, 'cause also think of the um... I don't, I don't remember, I don't know what the right word that I'm trying to think of is, but think of the hysteria that's already through the town and now you're labeled, you're geo... You're locating exactly where he's gonna be all night.
Christine Schiefer: Good point.
Em Schulz: And what he plans on doing, and people have been sending him death threats like uh not good...
Christine Schiefer: Asshole.
Em Schulz: Anyway, Christine's address is... No.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah like she plans to spend the night there and look for the devil. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So and so... And not only that, but on top of that, he says, "Well, David plans on spending the night here," but now he's not going to be doing that anymore, because, quote, "we feel he does not possess sufficient knowledge to exorcise successfully something as powerful, as powerful or as evil.
Christine Schiefer: Wait he's just like double blow like...
Em Schulz: So also he's stupid and he's not strong enough to fight this thing.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah I'm gonna throw you under the bus and then I'm gonna drive the bus backwards over you again because the first time wasn't enough, but I'm gonna say you're staying the night here surprise on live TV. No pressure, but also, you're too stupid to do it. So never mind. Like what?
Em Schulz: All of it. So yeah, years later, David even said in another interview by himself, he was like, "I never planned to stay the night, but Sean just said that like we never even... "
Christine Schiefer: What a dick.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine not even ever having discussed that, and now Sean is like saying this and you're on TV.
Christine Schiefer: And like you're live you're supposed to save face. Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so what did... I wonder what he did of like uh I...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Didn't plan on that, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So I guess he was like, Well, at least he like got me out of that by saying I'm too stupid to stay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah thanks for pulling the plug on that.
Em Schulz: So years later, David said he actually never planned to be there, but he also said that Sean had like um had reached out to a lot of people for publicity to make this interview really successful, um and so that might have been why he did it for the publicity stunt of it all, or it could have just been to make David look bad because in hindsight...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say but also like, couldn't you just say, Oh, I plan to spend the night... Like why do you have to say, He's plan, you know what I mean? Why did you just... If you're gonna do a p-publicity stunt, why don't you just say, "and I plan to bravely spend the night... " You know what I mean? Like, why are you throwing this guy under the bus?
Em Schulz: Well, so here's a weird thing, this is where the friendship gets messier or where like our understanding of it gets messier, is that David says "I never planned to be there," but at the same time, he did stay there for several more hours after the interview, so I don't know if I Sean was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh so he, David did.
Em Schulz: So David... Yeah, David did stay, even though he claims, we never discussed that. And then Sean even said, "Oh, David plans on being here, but now he's not gonna be there."
Christine Schiefer: And was he there alone after the interview?
Em Schulz: He was there alone.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, weird.
Em Schulz: It makes no sense...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he's like, I'm not stupid. Maybe this was all a... What do you call it? A psychology, reverse psychology. Like he's too dumb to do it right and then...
Em Schulz: Try to prove himself...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I don't understand how that worked out...
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: Or what the whole story is, but it sounds like he ended up sticking around anyway, and people must have thought like, maybe he'll still be there, or maybe we can get a glimpse of them doing this interview live... It ended up turning out that within hours of this interview, a mob was at the cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasps] oh no.
Em Schulz: Um. And this was you know at the people heard he might be slaying a vampire tonight.
Christine Schiefer: Well sure
Em Schulz: They were like, We gotta get over there. And it basically looked like pitch forks and torches,...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And like what you would imagine, and it was as big as like a crowd of people at a football game, the police could not control the crowds,...
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: Over 100 people broke into the cemetery with their own weapons to help fight the vampire. And at the end of the night, somehow the crowd kind of dissipated on its own, nobody ended up harmed. Shocking.
Christine Schiefer: Damn. Well, yeah, that is shocking, especially if everyone's bringing weapons...
Em Schulz: Yeah. But it ended up causing a bit of a scene, so everything kinda started to die down until August, um, and that, the, that was March, so like about five months later, three girls are walking around the cemetery, and you know they're probably seeing like... It's probably you, me and Eva or something going like, "Wow, I can't believe a vampire was almost slain here."
Christine Schiefer: This is so spooky.
Em Schulz: Well, so they're in the cemetery by themselves and they find the remains of a body,...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: and it was... She was removed from her coffin, she was charred...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: and decapitated.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And police, of course said, I don't know, but this could be black magic.
Christine Schiefer: We can't check.
Em Schulz: We can't, we couldn't check if we wanted to.
Christine Schiefer: Close your eyes.
Em Schulz: And the British Occult Society, David and Sean's group, they still believed that this could be the doing of a vampire because they never slayed the vampire, and therefore he's still out there.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Later on, David claims that he and Sean, fun fact could never actually agree on what type of vampire this thing was, So Sean was very king vampire who came over from Romania and lives in the West End apparently.
Christine Schiefer: With his heavy futon. Right.
Em Schulz: His fraternity of brothers. Yeah, um David, however, thought this was more of a demonic vampire-like entity.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh!
Em Schulz: Which, I like that, I like that.
Christine Schiefer: I kind of like that better. No offense, Sean.
Em Schulz: I also wonder if it's because I believe in demons more than I believe in vampires.
Christine Schiefer: More than a vampire? Me too, me too which is kind of a wild thing to say, but it's true so.
Em Schulz: I know, I know. Yeah, it's I don't know how I feel about it.
Christine Schiefer: I don't either.
Em Schulz: Uh. So that same month after this, this body was found, like a week later, uh David ends up getting arrested in Highgate because he's trying to summon and thus banish the demon, he thinks the vampire is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my goodness.
Em Schulz: And I wonder if it's because he heard about that body and he was like, "This thing is so large, I need to do something about it," uh but due to... So he goes in to like summon this thing and then he's gonna try to banish it, basically do an exorcism and due to minimal to no evidence of David doing anything truly illegal...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Because it was already totally written into the law. He kind of e-evaded it and he ended up being exonerated.
Christine Schiefer: I guess it's it's kind of a hard thing to pin down like what the actual charge is when you're arrested for that...
Em Schulz: Yeah, I guess you could get trespassing. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's probably true.
Em Schulz: Um. A year later, David and others tried to summon this thing again, so I guess he thought, "Well, I'll get exonerated again."
Christine Schiefer: He's like, It's called double jeopardy, right? Isn't that how this works? Not really, but maybe a little bit.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So he tried to summon the thing again with a group of people, but uh he refused to share what they did. He said quote, "the intrinsic details regarding this part of the ritual may not be disclosed as this would violate magical secrecy."
Christine Schiefer: [laughs] I don't mean to laugh but okay.
Em Schulz: What a flowery vague way to say, I'm not gonna tell you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I plead the fifth. 'cause it's a, it's magic or something.
Em Schulz: Whatever they did, apparently their circle that they formed went icy cold, apparently the candles went out, uh the fire that they had going blew away, and there was a dark presence nearby.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Um they tried to banish it and it didn't totally work, which as someone who is a ghost believer I would be terrified that thing would follow me home.
Christine Schiefer: Hell yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. They wanted to go back and try to banish it again, but they never got the chance, and uh David basically said, "I still think Satanists and cults and rituals are um being done in Highgate, and that's the best I've got."
Christine Schiefer: [gasps]
Em Schulz: Unfortunately, the public turned against David when uh... Because it used to be David and Sean. And then they went against David and they stayed with Team Sean. When Sean started telling people, I don't know what like you know behind closed doors fight they had, but this is clearly where they had a break up or they were about to... Because Sean started telling everybody publicly, David practices black magic.
Christine Schiefer: This guy is fucking toxic, okay.
Em Schulz: What a crazy, crazy, crazy thing to do.
Christine Schiefer: What a fucking menace. He is like, he is so toxic. Like he's that person in the reality show where you're like, "Okay, you're just trying to create narrative around yourself."
Em Schulz: He's a, he's a shit stirrer. He's a shit stirrer.
Christine Schiefer: A fucking villain you know.
Em Schulz: It sounds so far, and I don't know who's right, and I don't know who's wrong, but I will say in terms of like initial behavior, I don't know about David starting this problem. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It seems like all, all uh roads lead back to a certain someone named Sean.
Em Schulz: All I know is all of David's opinions came way after the fact, and he is now telling his side, so it doesn't... So I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. But something must have happened between the two of them, and then Sean was like, I'm gonna ruin you, and then told everybody I practice black magic, you've already been arrested for high jinx in the cemetery, people already think that you're trying to banish demons.
Christine Schiefer: Like you've been arrest... Oh, you said that already. Yeah. Arrested, like, bad news. Oh, he's really just stepping on him while he's down.
Em Schulz: And so I guess Sean was trying to imply that David is evil and does black magic, meanwhile I am good and do white magic. That was...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, sure.
Em Schulz: That's kind of what's he's implying. Because in 1973 they really go toe to toe. When Sean publicly challenges David to a magic duel.
Christine Schiefer: [laughs]
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughs] What the fuck?
Em Schulz: In 1973 he challenges Dave to a magic duel. The duel was set again for a Friday to 13th and publicity for it quickly spread... If you can't imagine it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I imagine.
Em Schulz: Posters advertising, the duel quickly reference to things like blood sacrifices and naked virgins appearing at this place.
Christine Schiefer: Oh come on.
Em Schulz: Um they couldn't... It wasn't enough apparently that this was a magic duel, they had to make it...
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: Even more so, and these ads also made David come off as the evil one, and uh honestly, he, he was scared of what the crowd would do to him, so he bailed, he ended up...
Christine Schiefer: Honestly smart. I think.
Em Schulz: The duel didn't happen. Yeah. Um. And also, I don't know the true inner workings of who's right and who's wrong here, but if I'm... I'm currently slightly leaning towards David right now...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you're being very diplomatic. You're being more diplomatic than me, which usually is not how it works, but I'm like fuck this Sean guy.
Em Schulz: But like David like he is... Can you imagine just getting in a fight with your friend and all of a sudden people think you're an evil warlock and like...
Christine Schiefer: [laughs] Jesus Christ he can't catch a break.
Em Schulz: And when he, and people when people weren't invited to the cemetery, a mob came that couldn't be controlled by the place. Imagine how people coming to see a magic duel... Or like what if you don't even practice magic, now it's just...
Christine Schiefer: What if you're like unhinged and you're really team Sean or team David, and you're gonna like act on it and like attack, I mean I don't know.
Em Schulz: This, yeah, it's feeling like...
Christine Schiefer: This is just not safe.
Em Schulz: It's not feeling safe.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm-mmm.
Em Schulz: And ultimately, all of this, 'cause, you know, he bailed on the magic duel and Sean already had this whole thing set up, he already had people coming, and so he didn't know what to do. He ended up turning it into a public exorcism on David's evil powers.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So now David's just like on a couch, he's indicouch somewhere and...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: He's just sitting there...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. I hope he is, I hope he's at least having some marijuana to ease his nerves, 'cause he deserves it.
Em Schulz: And he's just sitting there and to know a whole section of town is like now doing a public exorcism on your behalf.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I almost hope he doesn't believe any of this. 'Cause otherwise that would be so scary. If you're laying there and you're like, they're doing something to my, to me and I have no control or say.
Em Schulz: If I were David, I would literally leave town. I'd be like.
Christine Schiefer: I would be gone. For sure. Yeah. That's scary.
Em Schulz: I'd be like, I'm starting over. This is bullshit. Umm, ultimately this all just basically led to town gossip and more like infighting between people who are in the occult. There was one guy named, uh, Long John Baldry. Long John Baldry.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he said that David was to blame for his missing cat. His cat went, ran off.
Christine Schiefer: Oh come... Pfft..
Em Schulz: And he assumed that David was using it for a ritual. So this feels like a very individualized witch hunt. Like a literal witch hunt against him.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. You're a hundred percent right.
Em Schulz: Umm so...
Christine Schiefer: It's like all my crops are dead it must be David's fault. My cat's missing. I mean, come on.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And even though the cat eventually came home, that wasn't enough.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Are you serious?
Em Schulz: And another couple in town accused David of animal cruelty for other animals. He just, they must not have caught...
Christine Schiefer: That's insane.
Em Schulz: Pissed off about this. I think this is where David's starting to snap.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, this is where Elphaba all of a sudden becomes a wicked witch, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: She turns green. It's a whole thing.
Em Schulz: She, so David sends Long John Baldry, umm, two mini coffins, which I guess are like a death curse or an omen or something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And he sends the couple who accuses him of animal cruelty and like asked for him to be arrested, like press charges on him.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Uh, David sends them a box of dolls with pins stuck in their heads and a note with a threatening spell on it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh oh.
Em Schulz: David, you're making yourself not look good.
Christine Schiefer: David, I know what you're doing. I know you're stressed, but this isn't the answer my friend.
Em Schulz: We're spiraling David. This is...
Christine Schiefer: We're getting a little off course.
Em Schulz: This is make you're, you're giving them what they want, my friend.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, you're right. You're giving them ammo.
Em Schulz: Uh, so David did later say none of these were actual curses. They were being dramatic. I was just kind of retaliating with the accusations they've thrown at me.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah which I get.
Em Schulz: I get. But also, like, David, you have to be the classier one you know.
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't smart. Yeah. It really wasn't. No.
Em Schulz: That's not classy. Uh, the next, so he says like, oh, like I, they weren't real curses. No, I'm not gonna curse anybody. Not after everything that's already been thrown at me. But he did like put like a death omen of sorts on Long John Baldry's front door step and a year later, Long John Baldry got hit by a fucking train and died.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Oh my God.
Em Schulz: And guess...
Christine Schiefer: He got hit by a train.
Em Schulz: And guess who everyone blamed.
Christine Schiefer: Sean. No, I wish, honestly at this point.
Em Schulz: So a year, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck.
Em Schulz: Yeah. A year later he ended up dying and everyone blamed David. And a neighbor...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] That's crazy.
Em Schulz: A neighbor near the Highgate Cemetery later found a headless corpse on his property and that was like the final straw for the police. They were like, okay, we have to blame somebody.
Christine Schiefer:[Sighs]
Em Schulz: And so well, no no comment. But so they decided that they were going to blame the British Occult Society for all of the issues in the cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, just because Sean and David were like their names kept popping up.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I mean, where there's smoke, there's fire. Like these two have been kind of rousing rabble in the cemetery for years now.
Em Schulz: And uh, I guess it could have been fair. There was no solid evidence that they were ever the ones who dug up graves.
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure.
Em Schulz: They were never the ones who vandalized the cemetery. They just kept, it just kept being like the location of all their discussions. Like...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Umm, or they kept talking about the Highgate vampire, which was in the Highgate Cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so they just kind of got associated with each other. But it wasn't fair to, umm, blame the British occult society, especially since they hadn't done any of these things and the cemetery was already having these issues for decades before.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. That's true. So it really wasn't fair to just point at those two.
Em Schulz: But they arrested David anyway, not Sean, just David.
Christine Schiefer: [Sighs]
Em Schulz: And, uh, they were able to use photos of his rituals as evidence to be like, well, he's doing rituals probably in the cemetery. And by the way, the rituals like, and the photos taken of these rituals. The irony is incredible because David was taking photos of his rituals as evidence that they were not... Anyone who does rituals would be able to tell, oh, these aren't evil rituals. These aren't satanic occult magic rituals.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] And still worked against him oh no.
Em Schulz: But like, you know, ignorant people not in the occult world saw rituals and they went oh see he's evil.
Christine Schiefer: Right. There's, there's no good rituals for those people. Right.
Em Schulz: And he'd already been like dragged through the mud...
Christine Schiefer: Shit
Em Schulz: And like in all of the town that he was evil. And I mean, hello I'm sure Exhibit A was those posters about a magic duel for against an evil witch.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So it just all looked really bad. And then there were pictures of him doing rituals at home.
Christine Schiefer: And then that guy dying after he left him a death threat or whatever.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm-mmm.
Em Schulz: And one of the photos of his rituals, I guess his girlfriend happened to be there one night and the girlfriend was nude. I don't know if that is involved in the ritual or if it was just like, I'm with my girlfriend and we got naked in the woods and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It just happened to be like in the pile of pictures.
Christine Schiefer: It happens to the best of us.
Em Schulz: It happens to the best of us. Umm but so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it was in the photos oh no.
Em Schulz: But so it was in the photos, it was like essentially in the album, uh, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Of his other ritual photos. And so then people started saying, oh well this is obviously necromancy because which like, she's alive.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: By the way.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But the the judge assumed again, ignorantly, this must mean necromancy 'cause there's a naked woman during a magic ritual.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, sure.
Em Schulz: So basically not looking good for David.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Because if you're going to leave it in, if you're gonna leave that decision of your time in prison to the hands of people who don't know anything about this stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: It's not gonna look good.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, this guy can't catch a break.
Em Schulz: So he ends up, uh, basically he was given four years in prison. And...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Wow, that blows.
Em Schulz: Two years into his sentence. Eventually some teenagers came forward and they said the recent damages and grave digging were our fault. And I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: I don't know what like caused them to all of a sudden have like this moral compass of like.
Christine Schiefer: Like guilt. Guilt complex, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe one of them broke and then the rest had to follow.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Something happened. But they, even when they were asked, why are you doing this? Why are you digging up people's bodies and like cutting their heads off and shit?
Christine Schiefer: That's a fair question.
Em Schulz: They said for the laugh of it. That's what I'm saying. Like what moral compass? Anyway, literally one of them stole a corpse's head and kept it as a trophy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. That's...
Em Schulz: Little serial killers in the making it seems.
Christine Schiefer: That's not good.
Em Schulz: Uh, so I, I guess they really must have had a full 180 change of heart and they went, David didn't do anything and so he ended up getting parole. Umm, and that was two years after already being in jail. And to be fair, even those who were against David going to jail or being charged with all this, they were... When they were already against him as a person and thought he was evil, they thought his charges were unfair.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, even Sean publicly defended him and they...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well Sean wants to step forward all of a sudden. Okay.
Em Schulz: Sean was saying like decades of vandalism in the cemetery is not David's fault and there's no evidence that he even ever vandalized the cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Great point.
Em Schulz: All of that kind of added up. And two years into his sentence, he was released on parole and he ended up winning a bunch of libel lawsuits against the media.
Christine Schiefer: Oh good.
Em Schulz: Which are like, I mean, talk about deserving it, right? Like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Winning those arguments. Umm, after all this, David did still believe that Satanic cults were the true cause of Highgate's desecrations. And David continued to run the British Occult Society until his death in 2019.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, and David and Sean seemed to never stop having beef with each other.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: Umm, which like really rooting for those two. But how do you come back from so much of that.
Christine Schiefer: I know I feel like Sean real, no offense, but it's Sean's fault. [laughs]
Em Schulz: That's a lot. So we have mentioned we have a lovely researcher and you know, they helped us with these notes, but, umm, I wanna say this was the, the note I got with my research from them.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: They said, uh oh, here are our notes on the Highgate vampire. This is what I found. And then said I found a Facebook group where people are still arguing about it as recently as last week, one of the men involved, Sean has been caught making fake accounts to argue with people.
Christine Schiefer: "Gasp".
Em Schulz: So.
Christine Schiefer: That little sneaky sneak.
Em Schulz: So apparently the feud is still on even though David died four years ago.
Christine Schiefer: You have... You know what David, I'm gonna take up the mantle and I'm gonna defend you. No, I'm not, I don't have the time for that. We have enough Facebook, we have enough social media shit to deal with on our own, but wow. That is bananagrams.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So apparently people up until a week ago were still arguing this. And I don't know if it's arguing like was Sean right or David right? But they could even be arguing like, was it a vampire? Was it a ghost?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: What, what's going on? Could have been nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Was it a king vampire?
Em Schulz: Was it a king? And, uh, anyway, other than that, there's a fundraising group called The Friends of Highgate and they have raised enough funds for the cemetery to fix up certain sections of Highgate and they've actually been able...
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's good.
Em Schulz: To keep bodies from being desecrated again.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's good too.
Em Schulz: You can still buy tickets to visit the cemetery. You can go on a tour of the cemetery if you'd like. And I'll just end on this fun fact that the Highgate vampire also appears in season nine of Buffy.
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh.
Em Schulz: And the vampire is revealed to not be a vampire, but a demon that feeds off of its victim's emotional trauma. So she'd be...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Spoiler alert first of all, but okay.
Em Schulz: I am just saying she'd be nice and well fed if she were to attack me, if she's feeding off of emotional trauma.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say be careful 'cause I think we're both targets. Oh.
Em Schulz: [Chuckles] Anyway. That is the Highgate, the Highgate vampire/the drama between two very, uh, umm, unfortunate souls.
Christine Schiefer: I can see why this struck a chord with you. Very frenemy-centric.
Em Schulz: The second, the second I saw our researcher say they're still fighting about it as of a week ago, I was like...
Christine Schiefer: You were like, I'm not even gonna, not even gonna...
Em Schulz: Toot toot! All aboard.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm, good job. What a story.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay well.
Em Schulz: Anyway, Tell me, tell me something awful, please.
Christine Schiefer: Happily. Okay. I have a story for you. This is a story of Ellen Sherman.
Em Schulz: Ellen Sherman, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I don't know who that is.
Christine Schiefer: You're about to.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Ellen and Ed Sherman, happy couple live together in Niantic, Connecticut for the entirety of their 16 year marriage. Niantic is a village in the town of East Lyme, Connecticut. Umm, and it is an affluent New England seaside town. So there, it's, it's, it's like a kind of a hoity-toity Connecticut community.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like hi-high class, high brow.
Em Schulz: A country club type of town.
Christine Schiefer: Country club type of town. It's kind of what you picture when you hear like Connecticut, you know, I asked Blaise what, how to pronounce that town. He's like, I've never heard of it. So that, that tells you, that maybe tells you everything you need to know.
Em Schulz: Not to sound so country clubby, but like man, Connecticut is quite a town. It's a very, a very fun place to summer, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: A summ- Well they have like Cape Cod and all that over there.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, Yeah.
Em Schulz: They're, they're such on sucker for a little beach town. Such a sucker.
Christine Schiefer: You are. I know, I know you are. Well, you'd probably be friends with this guy. I hope not, I hope not.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I would probably not be, I would maybe be the person running the coffee shop that he, you know, visits.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: But I, I would not be allowed in the same circle as him for sure.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be making his London Fogs.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So in the '80s there were fewer than 3000 people living in this village. Umm, and it's one of those like classic bubbles where people just feel safe and they leave their doors unlocked, which is the same as the story I covered last week. Uh, people just don't lock their doors and the Shermans were especially lax about this, so they would leave their house unlocked even when they went out. Like even when they weren't home. And one friend, he uh, used to joke with Ellen saying, you're gonna come home some night and have nothing left in your house. Like, you guys are just so loosey-goosey and one day someone's gonna walk in and just take all you have.
Em Schulz: Oy. I bet he felt real bad about that later on in life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's not a good, yeah, yeah, yeah. He actually in a Forensic Files episode, like mentions that. He's like, "yeah, I used to tell her this all the time" about locking your door.
Em Schulz: I mean... Like, this is not the time to say you were right. But like, uh, that's, it's gotta be really rough and like.
Christine Schiefer: Just lock your doors folks.
Em Schulz: Just lock your doors and...
Christine Schiefer: You never know. People are unwell and they'll, there's dangerous people out there.
Em Schulz: I feel like the uh locking your doors or the doors always being unlocked as this season or this era's version of pillar to killer of like, great guy in the community. Like I feel like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Just so safe in this town where they never lock the doors. And then last week it was like a serial killer showed up, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I'm just like, don't mess with it. Just lock the door. You know? You never know. Umm, so either way Ellen didn't seem worried about it. Uh, she was a very laid back person, very friendly. Umm, she was not only loved by the community, she was actually also a savvy businesswoman, very successful. Uh, she, she worked full-time running the graphic design and advertising business that she and Ed owned together, but it was her family's business, so it was more her project. And she was the one who put more work into it and took home most of the money for the family. Ed meanwhile taught at a local community college. Uh, but like I said, the family business was like the m-major source of income.
Christine Schiefer: They had a 13 year old daughter, umm, from the outside as is, you know, normal in a lot of these places. It looked like they had this idyllic traditional American life. Uh, people said their home was full of laughter and love, but of course, like any married couple, they did have their issues. Umm, and so this is where we get into like a, a piece of their relationship that became kind of a crux of this whole story. So early on in their marriage, Ed told Ellen he wanted to open their relationship to other partners.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he said he was not a fan of traditional monogamy, which to be fair, I kind of wish he had mentioned to her before they got married. But.
Em Schulz: I feel like if that's gonna be a red flag for you, it just maybe should have been addressed earlier, but.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah and maybe you didn't find out you don't like monogamy until you participated in it. I guess that's possible.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well maybe things were getting kind of, you know, dull and you needed, wanted to spice it up or something. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Wanted to spice it up. Yeah. So he, uh, proposed this idea and Ellen was not a fan, but, and this is the biggest red flag one, at least you and I have discussed this with people, you know, we know who've, you know, tried out open relationships and some are really successful, some are not. And like one pattern, uh, that seems to be a huge red flag is if one person feels like they're compromising to make the other person happy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like both partners should be a hundred percent on board. Otherwise I feel like things are bound to tip and, you know, go awry.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she was not a fan of this open marriage idea, but like I said, she compromised to satisfy her partner. Uh, and Ed, you know, wanted Ellen to have her own partners and she had a couple flings. She had partnerships with three different men, umm, including a close friend named Len Frederickson, who was actually the guy who said...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta lock your door and all this.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: So just interesting full circle. I was watching the Forensic Files and I was like, oh, that guy. [Laughs] So she had sex with that guy!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, I I know way too much.
Em Schulz: It's like I I I know you. I know you and I know. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: [Giggles] And it's funny 'cause in the Forensic Files episode, they didn't say that. Like he, he wasn't like "I was one of the people, one of her partners," it's this like friend of the family, but I'm like, oh, he's one of the three that she hooked up with.
Em Schulz: That's so funky.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But it is public knowledge. I'm not like, you know, putting anyone on blast here, I don't think. But anyway, so she had flings, uh, with three men including this guy Len. Umm, but they didn't stick. And Ellen just was not happy with this arrangement. Umm, they tried different things. So over the years, you know, Ed regularly had, uh, who he called mistresses on the side. Umm, and the Shermans would host swinger parties and what they called wife swap parties in their home. And you know, whereas some of their friends knew about it and were even sometimes set up with different part-partners at these parties. Other friends had no idea, which must be just so jarring after everything comes out and you're like, wait, why wasn't I invited? That's what my first thought would be. Why wasn't I invited to the swinger parties? [Laughs]
Em Schulz: Your FOMO is like on a level I've never understood.
Christine Schiefer: It's out, it's out of control. Sometimes.
Em Schulz: It's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes.
Em Schulz: It's.
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes I don't wanna do. Like.
Em Schulz: It's some, I mean I guess it's on the same level kind of, of like, hey, maybe you are are, uh, you know, people even say like, I know you're out of town or you won't be here, but know you're invited. Maybe it's like, I know you don't wanna open up your relationship but know you're invited.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But here's the thing, I don't even think it's that I would want to go to the parties. It's more why like, wow, I really didn't know this about my good friends.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's what would wig me out is like, did they not feel comfortable to tell me? You know what I mean? Like, if they're having, if they're like in an open marriage and umm, a lot of their friends know, I'm like, what about the ones who don't know? Are those like the conservative friends that you don't wanna tell?
Em Schulz: Right. You didn't want, you don't wanna be clumped into like maybe the ju... The judgers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah I think I would just be worried like, oh no, they didn't trust me with that information. Like, I don't wanna go to the swinger party to be clear. Umm, I also don't really wanna go to a country club family party to begin with. Umm, so, you know, it's not FOMO about that. It's more...
Em Schulz: I don't know if I wanna go, but I do wanna hear about it afterwards. For sure.
Christine Schiefer: I want the open bar. Hmm.
Em Schulz: I I definitely wanna like hear, like how it all went. Like I wanna know like the details of like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is there any good gossip, anything cool come up, anything, you know.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, man, they had great wine and you're like, that's not what I need to know, Christine.
Em Schulz: No. I just, I just wanna like hear that everyone had a good time. You know, that's, that's all I'm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I...
Em Schulz: I care more about the information than actually being involved.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't wanna be involved at all actually. I just don't wanna feel like, oh, they didn't trust me with their friend, you know, they didn't trust me with this information, which again, this is not about me. And, umm, also whatever, it's none of my business. But, umm, it is interesting just to think about that some of their friends like had no idea until all of this came out. Like splashed across the media.
Em Schulz: That makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Like I think that's pretty fascinating. Umm, and my guess really is that they were just probably the more conservative friends that were like, nah, we're not gonna bring them in into this, you know,...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Lifestyle, so, okay. Anyway, the people who did not know about their open marriage, uh, basically assumed they had a very traditional life, which goes to show how much you really know about your friends and fam you know, neighbors and stuff.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm.
Em Schulz: Unless you go to the after-swingers event brunch the next day and get the 4-1-1.
Christine Schiefer: And then like Em has hosted it at their apartment.
[Laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We all get to go find out what happened umm, yeah, I wanna go to that. I'll go to that.
Em Schulz: It sounds fun.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't...
Em Schulz: It would be nothing but supportive and loving. I, and I still wanna be involved in my friend's world. I just, it's not my vibe. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. Umm, no, no. I just want the open bar again, but I'm sure we'll have that at your brunch as well.
Em Schulz: We'll have mimosas ready. Don't worry.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, so eventually Ed was with a woman named Nancy Prescott as one of his, what again, what he called mistresses, but he actually fell in love with her.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so here's another problem that I've sensed arises when this happens and people, you know, develop feelings and he starts dating her more seriously. And by the way, umm, Ellen is okay with this, you know, she's like, all right, I know you're seeing this person. You can date her. Umm, and so just a quick side note, at this point, like I said, Ellen and Ed have one daughter at this point, and Ellen really wanted another baby.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And Ed said, no, I don't want another kid. And she's like, okay. So they're kind of at an impasse.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Well, Nancy gets pregnant. The girlfriend.
Em Schulz: Ooh, that cannot feel good for...
Christine Schiefer: Can't feel good.
Em Schulz: Can't feel good for her.
Christine Schiefer: And it is Ed's baby. And Ellen says, you know what, if you and Nancy are having a baby, I would like a baby as well. So Ed says fine, and he kind of relents and Ellen gets pregnant.
Em Schulz: Good thing to relent on. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know. Now he is like, now I have three kids.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: So now Ellen and Nancy are having kids both by him. They're both aware of each other. Umm, but it got to a point where he was so split among these two families, like so divided, umm, that Ellen was like, you know what? I take it back. I can't live like this. Either you pick her or pick me. So yeah.
Em Schulz: Oof, now with kids involved though, wow.
Christine Schiefer: Now with kid, multiple kids. I mean, it's messy. Talk about messy.
Em Schulz: Mm. Wow. We both really picked the drama today.
Christine Schiefer: We did.
Em Schulz: We really said we need to, we need to stir shit up. [Laughs]
Christine Schiefer: Where's my mimosa? I feel like Sean today just fucking stirring the pot, you know. Umm, so in any case, he is getting like stressed out between these two families. Umm, you know, she gives him this ultimatum, this is in the summer of 1985. She's several months pregnant. And she says to him, if you wanna continue our marriage, you need to break things off with Nancy. Leave behind this like "swinger" lifestyle and we need to focus on our marriage. So Ed was obviously not thrilled about this, umm, you know, proposition, but he did give in and he broke up with Nancy and basically said, okay, you know what, I'm gonna focus on us. And you know what, they have a teenage daughter at this point too. So it's like you have to consider her as well. And so he's like, all right, break it off with Nancy. Get back together with Ellen. Only try this.
Em Schulz: See you Nance.
Christine Schiefer: See you Nance, try this monogamy thing. So in August of 1985, uh, when Ellen is five and a half months pregnant with their son, Ed is getting ready for his annual boys trip! It's a sailing trip that Em is on. No, I'm just kidding. Em wasn't invited.
Em Schulz: I would like to go to the after brunch, however.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] You are the bartender on the yacht.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Sign me up sure as long as am in. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: I'm your assistant to taste test all the beverages is perfect, what could go wrong? [laughter]
Em Schulz: We would do a great job of working a bar together, I think.
Christine Schiefer: For I think we fucking nail it except after your...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I'd be, Christine...Is this mimo... Mimosa too, too full of alcohol or what?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] And I'd say, "No such thing".
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then it would be the Grog Shoppe all over again, and we'd-
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And that Karen lady would be so rude, you know?
Em Schulz: I actually, I have a shift at...
Christine Schiefer: Karen 3000.
Em Schulz: I have a shift at the bar later tonight, so I'm, I'm looking for...
Christine Schiefer: You do.
Em Schulz: I know, I'm pretty excited to go, I'm gonna...
Christine Schiefer: You tell that little witch that I am...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I got my eye on her.
Em Schulz: And then when I see her now, uh because my, I turn my microphone off, every time she walks up to the bar, I go, "Ugh, what do you want?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And then you turn it back on, you're like, "Lovely to see you again." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm like, "Hey, girl!" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, this fucking bitch, I can't with Karen 3000, she drives me crazy.
Em Schulz: Me too.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Okay. So in any case, uh, he's on this sailing trip with his friends, it's like, they call it a boys trip every year, they go on it, they go sailing together. It's just, you know, broing out on the ocean with your Connecticut pals, I assume everyone's wearing loafers, I don't know. Or what are they called? Boat shoes, whatever.
Em Schulz: Sperrys.
Christine Schiefer: Sperrys. Oh God.
Em Schulz: Didn't you go to private school?
Christine Schiefer: I did.
Em Schulz: Come on.
Christine Schiefer: I hated those.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Sperrys. And then everyone wore Moccasins which now I'm like, "Oh God."
Em Schulz: I was, I was unfortunately one of those people, and now I hate myself, I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and it's a, it's a bad look looking back and being like, "Oh no." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Some of the stuff.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, half the things I ever did I'm like, "Oh no." Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I was always jealous of the kids with Sperrys, I never got any. And now that, now thank God I didn't because...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that funny? All the popular girls wore Sperrys and I was like, "Whoa." [laughter] Now it's like, "Oh God."
Em Schulz: Sperrys in the summer, Uggs in the winter. And then, uh, really telling on myself from an early age, I pretty much consistently wore Birkenstocks, so...
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. There you go.
Em Schulz: [laughter] Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: I mean I did too, but I got mocked relentlessly for it. So, umm.
Em Schulz: [laughter] It was either rainbow sandals or Birkenstocks every single day of my entire middle school and high school career.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: Pretty much.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then I got edgy and I wore Converse now that it...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I wore Converse and everyone was like, "Oh my God."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Good times.
Christine Schiefer: Because I didn't have Sperrys or Moccasins, I had, [chuckle] Converse. Okay, here we go. Uh, so they're going on this boys trip in their Sperrys and on Friday, August 2nd, it is Ed's birthday. So what does that make him a Leo?
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Is that right? You just said sure like you're just humoring me.
Em Schulz: I... Leo always throws me, I think it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yes.
Em Schulz: Is it early s... No, 'cause I always mix it up with Virgo, it's late September.
Christine Schiefer: It's July, August, July. No, it's...
Em Schulz: July and August?
Christine Schiefer: July, August, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Leo always confuses me.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's right. [laughter] Anyway.
Em Schulz: 'Cause when I was a kid...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. My mom is a Leo and she's August 16th.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna trust you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that's really dangerous, but, okay. You do you.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, anyway, so Friday, August 2nd, uh, as we said Ed is a Leo and it is the eve of this big boating boys trip. So he spends the day with Ellen who again is five and a half months pregnant with their son and their daughter Jessica meanwhile, who's a teenager, is away at summer camp. So 7:00 PM that night on his birthday, Ed's friend Roger Peterson picked Ed up from his house and they all met up with the other sailors! Sailor boys.
Em Schulz: Hey.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: At, uh, at one of their friend's houses is where they were all congregating. Then the four friends the next day would drive to Maine, pick up a sailboat as you do, and then...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmmm.
Christine Schiefer: Sail for 10 days.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: That's a long time.
Christine Schiefer: It's a long time to be on a boat in my opinion.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Probably it's like 10 hours, I was like, that's...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] 10 hours I can maybe do, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: 10 days.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so this is their big plan and that evening, as they're all gathered at their friend's house, Ed calls Ellen from the friend's landline and he calls to check in. Uh, he says, "Hey, by the way, there's something, could I ask you to like put something away on the boat that I left at home?" You know he's asking her to kind of run one more errand that he forgot to do and he wants to check in, obviously 'cause she's pregnant and, uh, everything seems fine. Uh, they have, you know, their fun little night, and then the next day they set off to Maine and head out to sea. But according to Ed's friends, uh, he seemed pretty anxious about leaving Ellen at home while pregnant, understandably.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so he had this ship to shore radio, and so he was trying to get ahold of her, trying to get in contact with her. Umm, but every time he called, there was no answer at home.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so he tried this over and over until he got so worried that he contacted their friend Len, remember Len?
Em Schulz: I remember Len.
Christine Schiefer: To go check on Nancy. And Len arrives, and the door is locked.
Em Schulz: Oh shit, that's not normal.
Christine Schiefer: Is that not a red?
Em Schulz: Len would know.
Christine Schiefer: Len would fucking know. Red flag central.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, he arrives and the damn door is locked, and he's like, "This is already weird." What's even weirder is that all the lights are on and the air condition, he can hear the air conditioning running, but nobody's answering the door when he knocks. So eventually, uh, he found an unlocked window he had to climb inside the house and upstairs Len found Ellen in her bedroom and she was dead.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: He immediately called 911 and when police arrived, it initially looked like she had been raped and that's because she was on the bed. But her pajamas, all the blankets were on the floor, her underpants had been ripped and there were strangulation marks on her neck. And so of course, detectives immediately suspect Ellen must have known her killer because, you know, the door was locked. Uh, it didn't look like any sign of forced entry, there was no sign of struggle within the house itself.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And the only fingerprints they found were hers, her husband's and Len's.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So there was also nothing stolen, so they were like, "Well, it's not a burglary." So they're trying to get to the bottom of this and they tried to determine a, uh, time of death. So the medical examiner ruled that Ellen had been murdered between 8:00 PM Friday night and 8:00 AM Sunday morning. So that leaves like all...
Em Schulz: So, 8:00 PM to 8:00 AM?
Christine Schiefer: So 8:00 PM Friday, but then 8:00 AM Sunday so that like leaves...
Em Schulz: Oh it's like a 48 hour window.
Christine Schiefer: All of Saturday, I think it's like what's in between that 36 hours.
Em Schulz: 36.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, 36 hour window and they're saying that is the time of death. Well, that timeline cleared Ed because he left Friday evening at 7:00.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And...
Em Schulz: Oh, wow, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So yes.
Em Schulz: Right on the dot. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: So like he left an hour before the supposed window. So the medical examiner and assistant determined that she had been strangled by her own underwear based on the ligature patterns on her neck which matched if you pulled the... They showed it on the Forensic Files, if you pull the elastic.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like the marks on it, were the same as on her neck, really disturbing. Umm, but when they looked at the actual cause of death, it was not that she had been strangled by her underwear it was that she had been strangled by hand. Somebody had manually strangled her, umm, and they found broken cartilage in her neck that was only possible if she had been strangled with somebody's hand.
Em Schulz: Oh God, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And when they did an autopsy, they found no evidence of rape either. So it almost looked like someone was staging a sex crime.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because they took the underwear and put it, you know, made it look like that was used to strangle her, that wasn't actually, it was probably placed there after her death. So it looked almost like somebody was staging this to look like...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, a sexual assault case when it really wasn't. So police contacted Ed with that ship to shore radio, and they broke the news of his wife's death, and so...
Em Schulz: Oh, imagine hearing that in the middle of an ocean.
Christine Schiefer: You're on your boys trip. Oh my God. It's horrific and you're already worried.
Em Schulz: And you're in the middle of an ocean like I would feel so claustrophobic, like I couldn't get...
Christine Schiefer: Ah you would. Yeah, you're like trapped.
Em Schulz: And also, also, I don't know anything about sailboats, but in my mind they're the fucking slowest way to get back to shore and so like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're not quick.
Em Schulz: So in my mind, I'm like, you obviously wanna get back as soon as you can and like to just be like s...
Christine Schiefer: You're stuck, like slowly, yeah.
Em Schulz: And dragging home.
Christine Schiefer: And what are your friends supposed to do, be like, "It's okay, buddy, do you want a brewski?" Like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What a horrible situation for everybody.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So they tell them this horrible news, of course, and they are able to direct this boat of friends to a Coast Guard office in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, and Connecticut State Police actually met them there. So Len who had found, uh, Ellen's body was a suspect, of course, because he was her best friend, former lover.
Em Schulz: Who she slept with, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Who she yep. And, uh, he was the one to discover the body, so of course he's a...
Em Schulz: Yeah. He was the one to say, "You better keep your door locked."
Christine Schiefer: You better lock your doors. Great point.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Great point. So police thought Len seemed like Ellen's confident. Umm, he told investigators all about the Sherman's marriage because he was also a really close friend of Ellen, so he kind of knew troubles they were facing in all this. Umm, and they worked together because their businesses kind of overlapped, so they had a very close relationship. But when they're looking at Len they just could not find a motive, they were like, "We just don't know why he would do this, it doesn't really add up." And they even went so far as to exhume Ellen's body, this is really hard, but...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: To do a paternity test using fetal bone DNA from the baby, to test whose child it was and it was Ed's child. So there was no...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Confusion of like, maybe it was Len's kid, you know, but umm, it was Ed's child, uh that part really got to me.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's rough.
Christine Schiefer: But, uh, Len cooperated fully, he told police everything that happened, everything he knew, umm, he, you know, didn't seem to have anything to hide. And one thing that he mentioned, uh, which stuck out as strange to him is that, the air conditioner was on full blast when he arrived, and, umm, it was so cold in the room that there was ice residue on the vent of the air conditioner.
Em Schulz: Oh, it was to keep the body cold?
Christine Schiefer: Em! You've been watching some Law & Order? What's going on?
Em Schulz: I'm just the smartest one in the room as we discussed earlier.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] It's all right, why do I keep...
Em Schulz: That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Forgetting? Probably 'cause I'm so dumb.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So, hold that thought, Emothy.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, the medical examiners, including, [chuckle] celebrity medical examiner, Dr. Henry Lee, uh, who I, I know pretty well from all the true crime documentaries I watch. Uh, began to suspect that the cool conditions of the room had slowed decomp and the process of rigor mortis. But unfortunately, Len and the paramedics had left the door open, obviously, 'cause they were trying to get...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know service, help and services in, and so they were not able to determine what the actual temperature in the room was when her body was in there. So they can't...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Really scientifically like prove how slow the decomp was or anything like that, they can only kind of assume that maybe that's what happened. So the medical examiners decided to evaluate the state, this is pretty gnarly folks, if you have like a gag reflex, just ho, ho-hold on tight. Uh, so they evaluated the state of Ellen's stomach contents, and she had had linguine with tomato and clam sauce.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the linguine was intact.
Em Schulz: So she had just eaten?
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Man.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You are... Move aside Dr. Henry Lee, damn. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's me, it's me, the Mensa kid, me. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Ed was in Mensa, so maybe you are friends. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean we've definitely like exchanged contact info, but that's all...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, apparently, he was kind of a douche, he told everyone how smart he was, so.
Em Schulz: My... I have a few family members in Mensa, I obviously did not get their genes, um, but, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, you did, you're very... Come on.
Em Schulz: But they're all assholes, all the ones that are in Mensa so.
Christine Schiefer: I just like, I don't know if you ever listened to the Jamie Loftus podcast, umm, and I just saw her live too. But, uh, "My Year in Mensa", she does like a podcast.
Em Schulz: Oh, really?
Christine Schiefer: About just her a year she got into Mensa and then went to all the meetings and it's just... I mean it's bonkers. Umm, but if you want...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like some gossip about what happens inside...
Em Schulz: Yes!
Christine Schiefer: The Mensa group...
Em Schulz: I do.
Christine Schiefer: Like that's a great show to listen to.
Em Schulz: I, uh, and yeah, I don't know. And I'll I'm sure there's some lovely people in Mensa, but I am not related to any of them, [chuckle] so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I don't even wanna know what my IQ is, you know. Let's just leave it at that.
Em Schulz: I, I just... Like if I'm average that's... I'm gonna call it a high.
Christine Schiefer: Let's...
Em Schulz: I'm gonna call it a win.
Christine Schiefer: Let's fucking... It's a win, yeah. For me too.
Em Schulz: We should take Mensa tests together, sometime.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'd be so bad 'cause you'd be like three points higher and you'd never let me live it down.
Em Schulz: I already know you're book smart and the smarter one between the two of us, don't worry.
Christine Schiefer: But I don't think... I don't know about that, it's book smart only 'cause you hate reading famously, so there's not even a... I don't know.
Em Schulz: I really... I was... Growing up, I was always a B+ average student...
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: At best.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, maybe we should...
Christine Schiefer: But I don't even think that has... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Let's.
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: Let's ride this ride, let's light this candle.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say I was always a B student. Umm, yeah, maybe, maybe we, maybe we have the same exact IQ. Wouldn't that be cool?
Em Schulz: What was your SAT score?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't remember 'cause it was that time when they switched the numbers.
Em Schulz: Yeah, we were in that like weird three year period.
Christine Schiefer: That phase. Yeah. Umm. I think...
Em Schulz: Either way mine was bad. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't remember, I know I got a five on the AP English exam and my teacher accused me of cheating 'cause I had a B in her class and.
Em Schulz: I got a one on AP Gov, which is like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: The easiest of APs.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] No.
Em Schulz: I was the only person in my grade and like for several years to come, I was the only one who got a, a one. And he even said like, "You have to try to be... "
Christine Schiefer: Try to get a one.
Em Schulz: "You have to try to get a one to be, like everyone gets fours or fives". And I was like, okay. And I got a one. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like how? [laughter] Did you just not fill it out?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I really, I don't know. I think I never learned how to properly study because I would study so fucking hard for tests.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And it would always be like absolutely the wrong material. So I would study really hard and then none of those, the questions...
Christine Schiefer: Do you remember that happened one time you and I...
Em Schulz: Oh I know.
Christine Schiefer: In grad school.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I...
Christine Schiefer: I still remember you spent all night at this whiteboard like writing these crazed like Charlie Esque like strings and like the next day we took the test and you like failed it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, failed with like, with like, what's it called? Like glowing...
Christine Schiefer: Flying colors.
Em Schulz: Flying colors. I mean I, it was like single digits I think was my score.
Christine Schiefer: No, I think you literally got like a seven. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I think so, I think seven was...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I just remember like that class was so scary and hard and everybody was like, she was like...
Em Schulz: Everyone failed, but everyone failed...
Christine Schiefer: 40% of you failed and she's like that. And I'm like, but isn't that on the teacher at that point like if 40% of the class failed.
Em Schulz: I know not everyone failed, you got to like a normal grade, right? You got like a B?
Christine Schiefer: I got a 90 but I kept saying I got a B 'cause everybody else was like...
Em Schulz: 'Cause you were the one who like we couldn't curve our grade because of you or something, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I didn't wanna piss every- but I...
Em Schulz: So you got a 90 and I got a seven and we're wondering who would be be...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Better on a Mensa test. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But I don't think any of those things would be on the Mensa exam, I don't know what is on the Mensa exam, but I'm sure like the history of Sesame Street is not on it. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Also, by the way, if it was the history of Sesame Street, I would've gotten an A.
Christine Schiefer: You would've nailed it! I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't even remember what it was on, but.
Em Schulz: I don't either, it was, it was about like it, I don't remember what it was about, but I...
Christine Schiefer: Who is... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Whatever I thought it was about was not it.
Christine Schiefer: She, she literally was looked at us and was like, "I've never been so disappointed in my life." And we were like, oh my God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And like I know, I wasn't like... I don't even think I was a bad student.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I did try really hard and just none, nothing she taught clicked with me. And to this day I blame her, [chuckle] I totally blame her.
Christine Schiefier: I mean, to be honest, if 40% of the class fails an exam, there's some disconnect you know? I don't, I'm not saying it's like all her fault, but like there's some disconnect between the material and you know, I'm just saying.
Em Schulz: I also, remember that was the class where the guy who created the Big... Bear in the Big Blue House came and I was so stoked.
Christine Schiefer: I literally think about this all the time.
Em Schulz: Everyone looked at me like I was a crazy person and I was like, are we not in a fucking...
Christine Schiefer: I definitely was...
Em Schulz: I was like, are we not in a television program? I'm supposed to be jazzed about this shit.
Christine Schiefer: I think I was pretty rude to you too about that, not rude, but I was like, "Whoa, you're excited." Like, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I keep... I don't know if you were rude or not...
Christine Schiefer: But I'd never seen that show, so I think for me I was like, I don't understand.
Em Schulz: A lot of people like gave me like weird comments about it and like I was the only person who seemed really stoked. And then the guy who created Bear in the Big Blue House even seemed weird that I was excited and I was like, "Why the fuck did you come here then? Don't you want people to be excited that you're here?"
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if everybody... I wonder if people thought you were just kind of like being facetious, like you were trying to be like...
Em Schulz: No, I was so excited and I was like...
Christine Schiefer: I know, no now knowing you, I know that, but I wonder if from the outside people were like, "Are you pulling our leg?"
Em Schulz: Well, half of our class were a bunch of like, I mean we were in a film and TV program, half the people were...
Christine Schiefer: Don't remind me.
Em Schulz: Like film douches.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And so, and I was like, "Wow, like you're... I'm getting to meet you, like this is such a cool part of this program. I'm so glad I'm here." And everyone and there was like why...
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, Where's Alfred Hitchcock. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I was like, "I'm sorry but this is a show I watched as a little kid. Like, shut the fuck up I'm allowed to be excited about this."
Christine Schiefer: Also, I think I was like, how old are you? 'cause that was a show my sister watched and I was like, are you twelve... Like, how are you in this program? But I...
Em Schulz: I used to wake, I, I used to wake up really early and I just put on whatever was on TV and that just happened to be on TV. But I always liked it. I always thought it was nice.
Christine Schiefer: Aw. Well.
Em Schulz: It was a good show.
Christine Schiefer: Now I feel bad about that 'cause I think I was kind of like, 'cause I thought you were kind of kidding, I think I really didn't know if you were serious or not. Like, 'cause we'd ne... I don't think we'd ever seen you really ecstatic about something and so that something was Bear in the Big Blue House and we were like, "Is Em pulling our leg or are you serious?"
Em Schulz: I think it was also a show I had actually heard of because I was not part of like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh with, yeah.
Em Schulz: The film douche crew.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.
Em Schulz: Where they would all talk about like Wes Anderson and this bullshit, and I was like, okay. And like then I heard about like a childhood show that had some nostalgia to it and I was like so excited.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I'm sorry if I was...
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Part of that, I don't really remember but.
Em Schulz: Me either.
Christine Schiefer: If I was I do apologize.
Em Schulz: It's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, I was not trying to be, to ruin your spirits.
Em Schulz: They probably wondered like what my story was since I was getting sevens on the tests and I was excited about the Bear in the Big Blue House.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I feel like you were presenting a really interesting narrative about yourself and we were all trying to get kind of put our finger on it.
Em Schulz: Or like and people should have gotten it from the beginning, like I'm a little stupid, but I'm excited to be here, like.
Christine Schiefer: You're not.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're so not stupid, that's the thing. Okay. Anyway. Umm.
Em Schulz: Back to murder.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. Yeah, he was in Mensa, which I don't even know if it's in these notes, but he was just fun fact. Uh, so in any case, umm, let's find out where we are.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, they left. Oh the, oh, oh my God, here it is. They, uh, had to analyze her stomach contents.
Em Schulz: Linguine.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. If you were trying to fast forward through that.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're still not over it. Sorry, it's still happening. Uh, the linguine in her tummy and it was, uh, intact, and so, like you said, that indicated she had eaten it pretty recently. And so turns out she had eaten that on Friday with her coworkers for lunch. So now they're trying to figure out, well, how long would it have stayed intact after lunch on Friday, uh.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: In order to stay intact by the time her body was, or like until when she died. Does that make sense?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So do you wanna know how they tested it? Can you guess? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, I would guess they would just replicate it and put it like they're making someone else eat it and then, I don't know, X-ray them or something, to see like...
Christine Schiefer: Make them throw it up.
Em Schulz: Make them throw it up. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Which is...
Em Schulz: Yeah okay, that makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: So gross. Throwing up spaghetti, like clams.
Em Schulz: Like who volunteered for that job though, you know.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I was wondering, because several people ate, like participated. They had living subjects eat the same meal, which is like clams, and, and then, and then they made them throw it up. And they...
Em Schulz: That's a bad thing to throw up too. Clams is rough.
Christine Schiefer: It's bad, like you probably would never eat clams again, like I mean it's already a rough food to like get on board with. Umm but so then they kind of timed out how long it took for this food to digest.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmmm.
Christine Schiefer: So if you threw it up and it was still intact, then you know, it could have been in the window where she died. So they did this and they determined that complete digestion of this meal would take only four hours.
Em Schulz: Okay, so they're thinking by... So four hours from when they found her then?
Christine Schiefer: From... Four hours from when she ate it at lunch and four hours later it would have digested in her body. So within that window, since it was still intact, she is... She was murdered in that window.
Em Schulz: So, are they saying that she was then murdered on Sunday? Since it was still intact in her stomach? Or like...
Christine Schiefer: So the...
Em Schulz: I guess it wouldn't have digested if your body...
Christine Schiefer: So Friday...
Em Schulz: Stopped working.
Christine Schiefer: So Friday, yeah. So she ate the meal Friday for lunch.
Em Schulz: Okay, so it was on Friday that she died.
Christine Schiefer: She had to have died within four hours, otherwise when they found her body days later, it would have been digested.
Em Schulz: Got you.
Christine Schiefer: But since it was still intact, that means she died within four hours of eating that meal.
Em Schulz: Got it. I was confused in my mind, her body was still digesting things even though she died. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The sun... I totally get what you are saying. Yeah when they found her, yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay, so Friday between 12:00 and 4:00.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, or uh whenever lunch was to four hours later. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Now, guess what? Ed's alibi is fucking falling apart, my friend 'cause he...
Em Schulz: Right 'cause he left at 7:00.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh left at 7:00 and so now suddenly, her time of death was smack-dab right in the middle of Ed being home.
Em Schulz: Right before he conveniently left for a 10-day trip. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For a 10-day trip. Also, it was his birthday, which like isn't really relevant, but just kind of fucking sucks too, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, what are you doing?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's your birthday you asshole.
Em Schulz: But also it makes his alibi like worse 'cause you'd think you'd be with your wife on your birthday.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, that's true too. And, and he was with his wife on his birthday and... And he just pretended like, okay... But anyway, yes, you're exactly right. So his alibi is starting to fall apart, but again, there's no like real iron clad evidence yet. Then a witness comes forward and says, "Hey, I, I don't know if this is relevant at all, but I had a really weird encounter with Ed, uh Saturday morning before he left for Maine."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, "Okay, what is it?" It turns out she was at the video rental store and he was either returning a movie or picking up a movie, but uh he said, "Oh, I just watched this great film, I highly recommend it." And they, they knew each other, so she you know said "Hi, how are you?" and he said, "Oh, I have a great recommendation for this movie, it's called Blackout, I just watched it, it's awesome." And she's like "Oh great, thanks for letting me know." Well, let me tell you the plot of Blackout.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Em Schulz: In Blackout a man murders his wife and children and then puts them in a room with the air conditioner on full blast to slow decomposition and confuse the forensics team about time of death.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Goodbye.
Christine Schiefer: That's weird.
Em Schulz: That'll, That'll do it.
Christine Schiefer: What a weird coincidence. So Ed told the woman he really enjoyed this movie. She had to watch it, which is like, what a fucking dumb ass. Like, if she...
S21: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Hadn't come forward with that information, nobody would've known he even rented it.
Em Schulz: It's one of those things where like, all information is useful even if you don't realize it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes! You'd be like, why would that matter? But look like it matters a lot.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so, you know, things are just looking worse and worse for Ed and he starts falling back on his like iron clad, what he thinks is iron clad, alibi of having called Ellen the night before he left sailing and he was at his friend's house and he used the landline to check up on her, see how she's doing, tell her to run an errand. And his friends were all there and it was at his friend's house. So he's like, "You guys saw me on the phone with her." And they're thinking like, "I mean, yeah, we did. So, you know, we don't know what to make of this." And this is still a really solid defense. Four people can say I... Or three people I guess can say. "Yeah, we all saw him talking to her on the phone." So investigators are scrambling to put together some sort of motive as to why he would do this. And according to Len, they're sort of like inside source. Uh, despite their initial reconciliation, Ed was still kind of trying to see Nancy and keep her in the loop, uh, and still trying to balance both families.
Christine Schiefer: And Ellen was on the verge of divorcing him. So things were rocky. She decided apparently according to Len, that he would never, that Ed would never be a fully involved husband and father. And she was fed up with his lifestyle and she alleged that he could, quote, "Keep Nancy and his sailboat" and she was gonna take everything else.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Including the house. So she was basically like, you can have your girlfriend and the boat. I get the business 'cause it's her business. She...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's both of their business. But she does a majority of the work. Uh, and she owned a majority of the business and she was like, "I'm gonna take the business over and I'm gonna take the house and you can go off with your girlfriend in your boat." And apparently that was not something he wanted to hear.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Ed, who worked at the community college knew that his life would change dramatically because his salary was nothing compared to what Ellen brought into the family. And so he was kind of stuck. And he apparently also said that he was very angry Ellen was making him choose between her and Nancy. Uh, and you know, I can see why that would anger you, but like, you kind of put yourself in this predicament, my friend.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And here it is. Ed belonged to Mensa. Uh, and one friend, apparently it was in my notes, one friend said, "Ed liked to make people feel that he was smarter than you. Ed thought he could have whatever Ed wanted." So in a certain way people were like, "This guy just thinks, oh, I know how to solve this problem." Uh, and he could be pushy, he could be arrogant and he could be violent. So people were starting to turn on him and think like, "Well maybe he did do it." And the narrative around this became Ed must have killed Ellen because he refused to give up Nancy, his lifestyle and their business and the income that came with it. And throughout the investigation, his friends who supported him in the beginning, they really thought he couldn't have done this. They're starting to get more and more uncomfortable because he is being a big weirdo and he's asking them questions like, "Hey, do you know how bodies decompose?" And they're like, "Why are you asking us that?" Like why?
Em Schulz: I'm just gonna jot that down in case I ever need to know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Let me see the timestamp on that question. Okay. Yeah. And they're, he's asking like, "Do you know how they determine time of death?" Like he's just not being sneaky at all. And one other...
Em Schulz: But also like, hello. It's the classic arrogant confidence of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes!
Em Schulz: I'm smarter than you. I can get away with it.
Christine Schiefer: And I can go to Blockbuster, Hollywood video and say rent this movie. It's great, wink. And think no one's gonna figure it out. Like come on.
Em Schulz: I mean that feels like such an intentional dig.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Because he can't just not fucking said anything.
Christine Schiefer: You couldn't, you could've just been like, oh, I don't know what the name of the movie was. Doesn't matter. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Why, why make it a thing? So another thing his friends started to kind of remember is that on the boat, on the first day he was wearing long pants and a full turtle-neck and everyone else, it's August, everyone's like burning up. So they're all in shorts and t-shirts. And they were like, "It was so weird. He was in like, he covered all of his body."
Em Schulz: Oh gross. And he had like defensive wounds.
Christine Schiefer: So they don't know because again, like nobody had hardcore evidence. I don't mean to say hardcore evidence, but they didn't have that either. They didn't have any hard evidence and so they were just like, "Well he was wearing a turtle neck, which doesn't prove anything, but it's also fishy." And I'm, you're not gonna like this Em, when they found Ellen, her fingernails had bent backward.
Em Schulz: [Gasp]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God. From what? From like trying to scratch him?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like def...
Em Schulz: That's like. Oh my god. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. [uncomfortable laughter]
Em Schulz: That's a rough one.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. And like also like, like my own issues aside. Like imagine how scared, you must.
Christine Schiefer: I Know. I know.
Em Schulz: When you're scratching that hard.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, I know. It's horrible. It's horrible.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my god. I can, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: That's terrible.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. But on that note, it's how they knew that whoever had killed her had defensive wounds. And so of course now it was too late to prove that he had any, but it's still shady that he was wearing like a turtle-neck.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And long pants on an August day on a boat. So, you know, it was just odd. And so his friends are starting to think like this is, is getting weird. Um, even the air conditioner evidence was shaky because like, they didn't know how cold the room really had been. There were no conclusive studies that this would actually work. Um, and so it was all kind of up in the air and they were like, we, we really think he did it. We just don't have anything to pin it on him. Fast forward to March of 1990. This is five years after the murder and Ed is still running around living life.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And suddenly a new witness statement comes, comes forward.
Em Schulz: What? Who?
Christine Schiefer: So one of Ed's friends is driving his daughter, I don't know where to volleyball to school. I have no idea. And she's in the backseat and he's discussing Ed's biggest defense that he had spoken to Ellen on the phone with his friends Friday night and that was at his house. So the guy driving is like talking to his daughter and he's like, man, we all saw him on the phone. Like we know he called and the daughter in the backseat speaks up and she says, "well I never really thought about it 'cause she was so little back then," but she said "it was the weirdest thing. I picked up the phone to call a friend and I heard Ed talking to nobody on the phone."
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: She said the phone line was just ringing and he was saying, "Okay, I love you honey. Can you make sure to... How are you feeling?" You know, he's asking all these questions. And so all his friends were like, "Oh, well he is on the phone with his wife." She goes, "Well actually I picked up the phone to call a friend and heard him talking and realized that was so weird. He's talking to an empty line."
Em Schulz: Ew.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So Wait, did he not realize that like someone had picked up on the other end?
Christine Schiefer: No, he didn't. She was in a different room because it's like a landline. So she had just...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: She just happened to pick the phone up and thank God because she...
Em Schulz: That was like almost like a, like a fate moment of like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. She's like, "I should really call my friend Sue."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's really, really on my mind for some reason.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's so weird. Um, but yeah, so she just happened to pick up the phone and since she was so little back then it really didn't click until years later when her dad is saying, "You know, it's so weird. We saw him on the phone and he was talking to Ellen." And she goes, "Actually he wasn't talking to Ellen, he was talking to no one." So of course now apparently the dad almost crashes his car because he's like, "What?!" Like he...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Almost crashes his car. This is so shocking to him. And so he calls police immediately to report his daughter's statement. And now that's kind of the last remaining thread of Ed's alibi or of Ed's story that she was still alive when he left and like he can't talk his way out of this one. You know what I mean? Like now he can't prove that she was actually there and still alive. So police went to Ed's office and finally felt like they had enough to arrest him for first degree murder and he sold the family graphic design business in order to afford his defense team.
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And the trial began October of '91, which was a little over six years since Ellen had been killed. And Ed the whole time maintained his innocence. He was extremely confident to the point of being cocky. He even laughed and made jokes throughout the trial. Uh, and the teenage witness who's, you know, was a child when this, uh, phone call occurred, she was equally confident on the stand about the fake phone call. Like she did not back down when...
Em Schulz: Oh good.
Christine Schiefer: When the, you know, opposing side was saying, "Well are you sure?" And she's like, "Nope." She insisted what she heard, uh, even when they were pressuring her, um, in cross-examination. But still it just wasn't enough because even though this like cold room theory was being presented, they even showed clips from the movie Blackout to be like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Look how similar, this is.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But there's still that lingering doubt because none of it is like hard hitting enough to to nail him.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so they didn't have the like, scientific backing that they needed to really like prove that rigor mortis was delayed and all that. But the pasta evidence was more compelling, you know, they're saying...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She had to have died within four hours. And then there was also the fact that Ed had a history of domestic abuse.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. So before the trial began, prosecution was actually barred from using Ed's violent history as evidence. Uh, because previous abuse, according to the judge, didn't, you know, prove he was guilty of this particular crime and they thought it would just sway the jury. Um, so they ended up ruling out a previous case where Ed had strangled a woman in the 1970s.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: They also ruled out police records of Ed abusing his girlfriend, Nancy Prescott and the now mother of his child. And apparently he had once kicked her in the face so hard she called the police on him and they had photographs of her swollen face and injuries, but they again couldn't use these in court against him.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But thank God Nancy decided to testify against him in trial and she told all about his violent nature, his history of physical abuse. So this is like talk about character, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This is like showing his real character and was very damning. What makes me sad is that Ed's daughter was, who was 19 at this point and...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Had been 13 when her mother was killed, uh, came forward to testify on behalf of the, of the defense. So like on her father's defense, which just makes me sad. It just seems like a horrible position to be in.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also it makes you wonder like so wait against him or for him?
Christine Schiefer: For him.
Em Schulz: For him? I wonder if um, if he really was violent, if she was also like threatened into it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Who knows? Or, or, uh, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to say. Especially because like she had one remaining...
Em Schulz: Or she could have been like...
Christine Schiefer: Parent.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say she could just be like, "This is my last parent. I would just want, I don't wanna lose both or something."
Christine Schiefer: Or I want to believe that he didn't do it or yeah. Who knows?
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Um, just a really tough position to be in. Um, so the prosecution attorney cross-examined Ed for days, um, and their goal was to keep him on the stand for as long as possible so jurors could see the "real him"
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Smart.
Christine Schiefer: And so it is smart. Yeah, I totally agree. So in the end, the jury sided with the circumstantial evidence and the witness statements and found him guilty of first degree murder and he was sentenced to 50 years in prison. And Nancy the girlfriend, attended the sentencing hearing. Um, she didn't wanna be there, but she, this is really sweet. Wanted to support Jessica, the, the daughter. So like her boyfriend's daughter.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Jessica who, um, like stood on the stand as defense for her dad and everything.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, Nancy wanted to support Jessica, which I thought was really sweet. So I, I do hope there's some connection there. I know that's probably awkward...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Because like it's your dad's lover so to speak. But...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: I, I, I would like to think worse has happened in this exact situation. So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I know I feel like maybe she took her under her wing. I don't know. I don't know. That's, I'd like to live in that fantasy world.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so she had, uh, so Nancy attended even though she didn't want to, but she wanted to be there for Jessica and so she attended and she apparently said she resented the way the media had covered the case, um, regarding both Jessica and her own child.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: And had sucked both of these kids into this fucking drama, you know, that like they weren't part of. And so she just resented how like they were treated by the media, Jessica and her own child. And so she attended. Ed at the sentencing hearing, like we said, was sentenced to 50 years in prison and this is when for the first time ever he apologized to Ellen's family, but not for the killing because he didn't do that.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But for the way that he acted when Ellen was alive. So he did show some remorse.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He said, "She deserved a better life than the one she shared with me for that I will be eternally sorry." But he also said, "But I don't know who killed her." So. Hmm. It was only three years into his 50 year prison sentence that Ed died of a heart attack at only 52 years old.
Em Schulz: Oh damn.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So really kind of jarring. Um, in 2019, Dr. Henry Lee, the celebrity medical examiner and who was also the lead ME on this case, was caught in a controversy because two men he helped convict in the '80s who had been in prison for years were exonerated because his evidence had been flawed in those cases. Apparently, uh, Dr. Lee had tested a towel for blood at the scene of the crime instead of using a laboratory test and he falsely concluded there was blood on the towel and this evidence ended up convicting both men or helped to convict both men of murder.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: And when they tested the blood or the towel in a lab later they found there was no blood on this towel. And that was like one of the major points that sent these men to prison. So, you know, it of course led people, and we've seen this before to wonder whether Dr. Lee had maybe messed up some other evidence on the...
Em Schulz: It only takes one time to ruin your credibility. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. And he had done 8,000 investigations. So like people were thinking, well is are any of these now flawed? But Dr. Lee maintains this was a one-time mistake and that he agreed with the exoneration, uh, of the other two men and he fully admitted that he had screwed that up. And he said, "I otherwise uphold all of my testimonies." So, you know.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Who knows about that? Um, but of course Ed has passed so he obviously can't appeal, but an investigation could theoretically be opened if, you know, somebody does want to prove that this was all done falsely.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Em Schulz: And somebody else killed her. But at this point, you know, it probably...
Em Schulz: Doesn't look like that's happening.
Christine Schiefer: Won't happen.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So Ed maintained his innocence to his death. Um, but most people, including the people in his life, still consider him to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but still some people wonder, you know, did he really do it? If not, who did? A 2017 review of the case in the Journal of Forensic Science and Criminal Investigation stated that the case demonstrated why crime scene procedures are so important to follow, which we see...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: All the freaking time and the Mullaney, John Mullaney bit of like sweep up that blood.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was like... I have a hunch. Hmm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Forget it. Forget the fingerprints. And so, you know, if paramedics and police had shut the bedroom door, which I didn't even know was a thing that was part of crime scene protocol, but apparently they were supposed to shut the door to preserve the scene. Uh, and they are supposed to take environmental parameters like room temperature, which I also didn't know.
Em Schulz: I didn't know that.
Christine Schiefer: You know, fun fact for you there, but you know, if they had done that, it probably would've been more reliable, um, to be able to test how long, you know...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Till rigor mortis and all that. So that is the case. I mean, you know, he basically based his, uh, murder on a movie that he got at Hollywood video or you know, who knows where.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine being the director of that movie though?
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Being like, ah fuck yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible. And I read an article from... God, it must have been the '90s, about, uh, the sentencing and in I think it was New York Times, and in that article it said, uh, Ed Sherman who was known to love solving mysteries on weekly crime shows. So like, he would watch those crime shows and try to solve them and like prove that he could because you know, he's in Mensa and all that.
Em Schulz: Of course, of course.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I, uh, yeah, I wonder at, at some point I feel like maybe it's on a Law and Order episode and I just haven't seen it yet that I feel like a true crime podcaster will be the killer of a true crime or something, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I think that is an episode.
Em Schulz: It has to be, right?
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm pretty, yeah, I'm pretty sure. And I'm, I'm, uh, let me see. 'Cause I think somebody funny play or maybe... Hmm.
Em Schulz: It just, it's a perfect, the perfect plot.
Christine Schiefer: I'll think about it. I feel like, uh, I feel like that was definitely, maybe not Law and Order, but one of these crime shows definitely did podcaster, which was kind of hilarious.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, great story. We both had messy ones today. I guess.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, talk about frenemies and...
Em Schulz: Lovers, ex lovers.
Christine Schiefer: Lovers and, and boats and Sperrys.
Em Schulz: Do we have, do we have any update on like the daughter? Like is she okay these days?
Christine Schiefer: Um, I don't know. And you know, she was 19 when the trial happened in 1990.
Em Schulz: Okay. So she's not a teenager anymore.
Christine Schiefer: 50s.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I'm not sure. I mean, I, I hope she's okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah, me too.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I'm sure you wouldn't be okay in a lot of ways automatically, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's whatever okay means. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, I hope she's found healing, let's put it that way.
Em Schulz: Good. Yeah, I, yeah, great story though, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well thank you so much.
Em Schulz: I really thought the whole time it was gonna be the, his, his ex lover who like wanted...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Nancy?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I thought originally you were gonna say it was Nancy who like wanted him all to herself and then knew that he knew that he was on a trip and so she went over. When he wasn't there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well in the SVU episode and she didn't know not to unlock the door, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, well I'm just glad we've got an answer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Boy, Christine, those are some, those are some good stories we covered.
Christine Schiefer: What a doozy.
Em Schulz: Uh, thank you everyone for listening so far. And, uh, if you would like to continue, uh, enjoying our voices, you can find us on YouTube, you can find us on Patreon, you can find us live in your town. Except right now it's just a Vegas show. And then...
Christine Schiefer: That was actually only to Zak Bagans - live in your town.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: If you are Zak Bagans.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But we will soon be coming out with, uh, more show dates and all that kind of stuff. So be on the lookout for that. Um.
Christine Schiefer: And we do a, an After Chat on Patreon every episode where the following day we release a video, a YouTube video of us just decompressing after, after a normal episode. And...
Em Schulz: The last one was...
Christine Schiefer: All sorts of things.
Em Schulz: The last one was almost as long as a normal episode.
Christine Schiefer: It was intense. Yeah, it was really long.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: We really got into it. So maybe that'll happen again, but hop on over if you wanna...
Christine Schiefer: I'll bring my vape pen.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, I'll bring the Mensa tests.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Let's find out our IQs on an after chat.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: All right. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.