[intro music]
Em Schulz: Hi.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, I don't know what to... I mean, I, umm, nothing, nothing's going on. We just had a, a long business meeting before this, so now I'm just like...
Christine Schiefer: Poor Eva. Every time we record Eva's like, "I just had have a couple things to go over." And then Em and I act like surly teenagers the whole time and we're like... It's probably just me but, uh, we're like, "Uh, fine. Whatever." You know, we're just kind of like, you know, we're, we're just, I don't know, I don't know the right word, but it's like she...
Em Schulz: I'm just over...
Christine Schiefer: That poor Eva's the messenger and we're like, just over all this, the oftentimes not great news she's bringing. It's not bad stuff, it's just like complications and logistics and Em and I are sitting here like, "Meh, we don't wanna deal with this right now," so we've developed a new procedure.
Em Schulz: Yeah, we're now gonna have a sad happy hour once a week. [laughter] Where instead of...
Christine Schiefer: Which I love.
Em Schulz: Instead of Eva telling us things right before we record, she's gonna just have one meeting a week where she tells us all the stuff that like could possibly bum us out, uh...
Christine Schiefer: And we can kind of like troubleshoot and not, not feel the looming pressure of having to record right afterwards. So we're...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We're, we're developing new strategies. Listen, you learn, you grow, you evolve.
Em Schulz: I'm excited to try it and I like that we're calling it sad happy hour. And it's...
Christine Schiefer: Me, too. And I was telling them, I just got a shirt that says Sad Girls Club and I'm so excited to wear this to our first inaugural...
Em Schulz: Yeah. And...
Christine Schiefer: Happy sad hour.
Em Schulz: And by the way, anyone who is like, you know, reading into things, it's like they're not really bad things. They're just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: They're just us being babies about not wanting to hear about logistics.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, just, it's just children. We're just children. We're just small children and we can't regulate our emotions, so...
Em Schulz: Or like, [laughter] or like poor Eva has been... And also, you know, we have another person that works with us, Katie, who's, you know, is also very...
Christine Schiefer: Does a lot of admin and logistics and smart stuff.
Em Schulz: Who's incredibly helpful, but they all, you know, talk to venues before we ever go. And so, they're always telling us like the behind the scenes stuff of how projectors work and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're like slight problem.
Em Schulz: Things like that. Like it...
Christine Schiefer: Like the projector shattered into a million pieces, that did not happen anywhere. I'm just trying to give an example, but don't worry they're fixing it. And Em and I are like, helpless. It's all, it's...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Like we're like, "What do we do?"
Em Schulz: Like, sad happy hour is gonna be reserved for the times where Eva kinda tells us like, "Oh, umm, something bad almost happened, but now something good's happening but... "
Christine Schiefer: But don't worry.
Em Schulz: But it always, it always happen...
Christine Schiefer: She does send us through like a rollercoaster, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Eva just texted by the way and said the projector shattering literally did happen in San Diego.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: It did, but to be fair, we were all there, so it wasn't like you had to break the news. We were all really, uh, watching it happen in, in real time. Umm, that did happen. Yes. But, but, uh, we won't name names of where, and they did figure it out.
Em Schulz: San Diego.
Christine Schiefer: Actually, wait. [laughter] I think they, I think everyone there knew because we were like, "Sorry, this show's an hour late. The projector fell off the ceiling, you know, just normal things, just normal podcast things."
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's something that, you know, if we had more time would... We would've been debriefed at sad happy hour. So, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I encourage all of you, if you are, uh, a supervisor or a manager, I encourage you having a sad happy hour.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. We're, we're encouraging... We haven't tried it yet, so we can't say it's a tried and true method, but we are pretty confident in it.
Em Schulz: The concept is sound, where...
Christine Schiefer: I would say.
Em Schulz: It's happy hour so people bring their snackies and their drinks and...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You just...
Christine Schiefer: 'cause we're doing a 2:00, 5:00.
Em Schulz: You just get through it.
Christine Schiefer: We're doing a 2:00, 5:00. So you're at two o'clock, I'm at five o'clock.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So mine is like actual happy hour time. Yours is like prime snack time.
Em Schulz: Snack time. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So we're hoping this kind of works. Umm, but it, I think, I, it holds promise I would say.
Em Schulz: It does. I think it's like this is just one way to get through the, you know, the less rigamarole. The rigamarole. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mm, mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, man. Uh, I think, I think a snacky is gonna really help me out here. I think...
Christine Schiefer: I just feel so bad 'cause we sit there and we're like, [sighs]
Em Schulz: [laughter] and poor Eva was like, "And then, well, uh one more thing."
Em Schulz: Well, I also...
Christine Schiefer: You know like, "It's not your fault Eva."
Em Schulz: I do feel, I feel very bad for, you know, Eva and all of our lovely admin who help out. But you know, a lot of venues we've been dealing a lot at the time with like, uh, ADA compliance 'cause I can't use stairs these days.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And like, so it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's a lot of logistical.
Em Schulz: It's a lot of conversations about like, you know, "Can we do ramps? How do we get you backstage?" Blah, blah, blah. So it's, and it's more the...
Christine Schiefer: And it's a lot of back and forth. So it's like...
Em Schulz: A lot of back and forth.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I went back and I circled back and I, per my previous email and so, you know, they handle all the difficult stuff. We just have to sit here and complain about it, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: So, so we are toddlers because we have to do nothing.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: They have to do all the back and forth phone calls and we're acting like we're completely inconvenienced.
Christine Schiefer: On our behalf. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, umm, anyway, that's probably...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The most diva thing about us. Eva, thoughts on that?
Christine Schiefer: Eva?
Em Schulz: Nevermind. Don't say anything.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I hear, I hear crickets. That's not good.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, anyway, sad happy hour, it's something that I'm both sad and happy to try, so...
Christine Schiefer: I'm kinda loving it 'cause it also fits our brand. Like I know it's just a per, like a, it's an in, intra-work, intrapersonal thing, but it really fits the brand of the show too. So, you know, if this really works...
Em Schulz: I don't know why we haven't been having Happy Hour and And That's Why We Drink this entire time.
Christine Schiefer: Well, we have, we just never stuck with it, which is why I'm not 110% sure this will really work as well as we hope because we've tried [chuckle] a couple, like remember we were gonna do like a monthly happy hour with like, Katie and Eva and you know, Megan on social media and then like, we did one and it just never happened again. But I think the problem was it went like three hours long and so we were like, "Wow, this is... "
Em Schulz: I think we never did it again because it was so much fun. But we also realized we took our like people's nights from them...
Christine Schiefer: A lot of time.
Em Schulz: Like every, everyone went to bed at like midnight and I was like, "Ooh, we did not mean to do that. It just... "
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: Fell in that way. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Wow...
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna try it.
Em Schulz: Is everyone, like being involved in our like, office talk?
Christine Schiefer: God, I mean, it's so boring. Sorry guys. It's like the, uh, the water cooler talk of And That's Why We Drink, you know.
Em Schulz: Ugh. How do we not have any specials called The Water Cooler? I feel like that'd be fun.
Christine Schiefer: I'm really into it.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I think so.
Christine Schiefer: Let's work... What's special? What?
Em Schulz: We'll shop it. I don't know, like a special...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay [laughter]
Em Schulz: Episode. I don't know. It's too...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Late to make new things happen. Is it?
Christine Schiefer: Hang on. It's not too...
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: Late to make new things. We just made a Sad Happy Hour today.
Em Schulz: Oh [laughter] Okay, that's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: What if we do a water cooler? Maybe that can be our Patreon name. Remember when we couldn't come up with a name?
Em Schulz: The Water Cooler? Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: So we call it...
Em Schulz: We could.
Christine Schiefer: After Chat?
Em Schulz: Well it's like a more but... And That's Why We Drink sound 'cause that's like office sound.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're right, you're right.
Em Schulz: Like we need like a water cooler at a pub, you know?
Christine Schiefer: What about uh, Open Bar?
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Haven't we...
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Said this already? I feel like I'm having like deja vu, like we've already discussed this.
Em Schulz: I dunno.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe it was in a dream I had. Um, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I like it though. Open Bar, you know, just kinda...
Em Schulz: I like it. Speaking of open bar, uh, I don't mean to brag, but I'm pretty sure I'm employee of the month, uh, up in space at the Startenders Academy. So...
Christine Schiefer: You are?
[applause]
Em Schulz: I'd... I have not been told, but I am saying I was on a fucking roll last night.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so...
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Proud of you, Em.
Em Schulz: I had my shift. It was at 1:00 in the morning. I worked for about, you know, an hour or two hours and, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Made a... About 120 drinks. Didn't mess up one of them.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yes.
Em Schulz: Had a good time. It was a good time.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so proud of you.
Em Schulz: I would like a shirt that says, "Employee of the Month". You know, so at some point...
Christine Schiefer: From the Grog Shoppe?
Em Schulz: From the grog shop. From ye old...
Christine Schiefer: Somebody...
Em Schulz: Grog Tavern, yes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Sadie made the most amazing illustration of your Grog Shoppe on Instagram. Did you see it?
Em Schulz: I saw. I saw and it...
Christine Schiefer: It's, like beautiful.
Em Schulz: It was to die for and it looks...
Christine Schiefer: It's...
Em Schulz: Oddly similar to the bar I work at, so, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like maybe they knew they were onto something there 'cause they really... It nailed it.
Em Schulz: I think so. Anyway, that's why I drink this week because I have declared myself bartender of the week. Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The aliens really can't confirm or deny because they're not real. So, there you go.
Christine Schiefer: You know what, Em? With that attitude, of course not, but...
Em Schulz: If...
Christine Schiefer: In my world...
Em Schulz: If your... If your boss wasn't real, you would just give yourself titles all the time. So I'm gonna... I'm gonna lean into it.
Christine Schiefer: If my boss... Can I tell you something? If my boss wasn't real, I would do zero work ever. So, you're already way ahead of me and I think you deserve Employee of the Month, 'cause I would do nothing.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Well, to be fair, I'm your boss and you're my boss and we...
Christine Schiefer: Ah fuck.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: That's why we're back at a...
Em Schulz: Everything is-.
Christine Schiefer: Sad Happy... Everything circles back to this Sad Happy Hour... Sappy Hour? No. Ha... No.
Em Schulz: Had?
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Open Bar.
Christine Schiefer: Open Bar.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Let's just have an open bar and skip all the other stuff.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Why do you drink this week, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, Em. I'm just, uh, in a mood today and I made Blaise take me to Jungle Jim's and buy like, 80 bags of candy. Umm...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so I bou... I bought...
Em Schulz: What kind?
Christine Schiefer: Like, oh my god, so many kinds. So I did like the pick your own, you know, where they weigh it. I did that of course, with like, um, you know, gummy sharks and atomic fireballs and these old-timey strawberry ones that I love.
Em Schulz: Oh, love 'em.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and then I also did, uh, like the... Where are they? I didn't bring them, but like the kinda old school, like Amish candies, the hard candies...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I got them in like 10 different flavors and then I shoved them all in my nightstand. So at night, I'm just like rustling around while Blaise is trying to sleep. But, um...
Em Schulz: That's like, uh... Eva's girlfriend has, uh, night nuts. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: What is that? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know way too much about Eva's girlfriend. But, Eva's girlfriend has night nuts where she keeps nuts in her nightstand so she can rummage through like a little...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I wanna say...
Em Schulz: Animal in the middle of the night.
Christine Schiefer: I wanna say like, "Wow, you know way too much," but also that is the kind of thing that Rachel would tell somebody on their first meeting.
Em Schulz: Without prompting. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Without any prompt. Like, I wanna be like, "Whoa, that's really intimate." But like, "No, that's something Rachel would tell us."
Em Schulz: How do you think I know about the night nuts? I never said...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: "Do you have night nuts?" I...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But that's what I'm saying. It's not that you're, like in the inner workings of... It's just kind of... That's the kind of thing she will announce to, you know, no one in particular.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's... It's exactly how it happened. And by the way, I also don't think I asked what type of nuts the night nuts were.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But I was still told...
Christine Schiefer: Well that was your big mistake.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They are almond butter-covered almonds.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, that's pretty meta, I would say.
Em Schulz: So, if you're looking for some night nuts for...
Christine Schiefer: I always am.
Em Schulz: Your nightstand. Those... If you wanna be just like Eva's girlfriend, that's what you gotta do.
Christine Schiefer: And I do, and we all know it. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I think maybe that'll be... [laughter] I'll go to Jungle Jim's and see what's in stock. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Do you.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Oy, Christine. Well that was a lot of... A lot of banter we just did.
Christine Schiefer: I have a headache. I keep getting headaches.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like it's you that's the problem.
Em Schulz: That's fine.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's probably true.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that's the end of my complaint.
Em Schulz: Uh, I'm sorry you have a headache. I would give you, you know, some... Some stuff from the apothecary behind me.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: But, um... Again, you're not here, so.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I have these two little apothecary bottles. You see I've been putting up little shelves. Oh, by the way, I put this fake plant in my Webby, look.
Em Schulz: That's so smart.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that cute? It ha... It's like a...
Em Schulz: Don't let Allison hear it. She's gonna take my...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Webbys and start filling them with dirt and plants.
Christine Schiefer: We have plenty to spare. Wink.
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No. So, I put a fake eucalyptus in it, you know, and I put it under the skull picture that somebody made us. Um...
Em Schulz: That's so smart.
Christine Schiefer: I was so into it, but I have little apothecary bottles 'cause you left them in the rental car by mistake. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh, did I? Oh shit.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: Wait.
Christine Schiefer: But I didn't wanna.
Em Schulz: Why? Why did I have apothecary bottles in the rental car?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Was it for my night nuts? What happened?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I should...
Em Schulz: I have no...
Em Schulz: Fill them with...
Em Schulz: I have no memory of this.
Christine Schiefer: Night nuts. Okay, so our, our, our pal Jess, who does the newsletter, uh, came to the show... The Boston Show, with her friend...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Molly. And Molly brought, um.
Christine Schiefer: Us little gifts and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Molly has an apothecary and brought you two pretty little like glass bottles. Umm, and then I found them in the backseat along with the Happy Meal toys that Eva and I gave you so...
Em Schulz: Why did I... Why would I have left those? I must have thought I...
Christine Schiefer: All rejected.
Em Schulz: I must have thought I was getting back in the car.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I kept them for you and I kept them. I kept the, the, the letter that came with it.
Em Schulz: Okay, good.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so it's all here for you, but I'm just letting you know that they're here in safekeeping. Umm, but also, uh, yeah, I think that speaking of apothecary, I do kind of have my own apothecary here. I have some Excedrin, so I think I'm gonna take that.
Em Schulz: It's all of your vape pens. What?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, all my vape pens and my Excedrin.
Em Schulz: Well, Christine, look, these are all my like empty bottles that I need to use. And...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Those are gorgeous.
Em Schulz: I know. I love them. And so there's like, I'm trying... I have to figure out what to do with all of them though.
Christine Schiefer: It's the colored glass that really does it for me.
Em Schulz: You have no idea, Christine. I've been collecting the colored glass and this yellow one, by the way, was like from Michael's or something. It was like just...
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Just in a craft... Like in the craft section. It was like a quarter, and then...
Christine Schiefer: Well, you know, remember when that... We went to Michael's at one time and bought a bunch of crap for my house and it was...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Halloween season and I was pregnant, and we bought all those like tests and tubes and whatever. And so, at Halloween I always fill them and then I put a couple drops of food coloring and I make like different... For Halloween decorations, I fill all the vials with different colored water.
Em Schulz: Genius.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like you could do that with the bottles that you don't have anything in to make them just kind of like...
Em Schulz: I have a suggestion for you with those.
Christine Schiefer: Tell me.
Em Schulz: I think you should start putting your candies you just got out of your bags in different vials and so you can, you can make your own little potions of your favorite candy concoctions.
Christine Schiefer: Stop...
Em Schulz: I can't.
Christine Schiefer: Right there...
Em Schulz: I can't.
Christine Schiefer: In the name of all that is holy.
Em Schulz: I'm just saying like, what if you put like little mini M&M's in one, some Skittles in the other, and then you just made a bowl for yourself for a, for a movie night, a little snackies.
Christine Schiefer: You're really... I mean, think about it. Think about you get a big bowl of popcorn, then you're like, "Which toppings do I want?"
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, Christine. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, the possibilities are endless.
Em Schulz: Uh, wow. We should just...
Christine Schiefer: Why did Eva take up all our time to talk about bullshit logistics when we could have been having this conversation an hour ago?
Em Schulz: Now this is happy, happy hour. This is...
Christine Schiefer: This is the real. [laughter] This is where the magic happens.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Eva, I would like our, umm, professional meetings to sound more like this if you can do something about that.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And you know what's the other bad part is that Eva's internet is out, so she went to the podcast apartment. Internet was out there, too. So she's somewhere at a Starbucks just so we can do this...
Em Schulz: She's literally down the street. Like I feel like I have her...
Christine Schiefer: Recording.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like she's Oliver Twist and I could like let her into my home and...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: She's just not here. Oh, okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No. Stay there. Poor Eva.
Em Schulz: Oh, poor Eva. She's probably already ditched us. She's like, "Well, I told them what I needed to say and now I'm going home." Umm, okay. Well, let's get into this. [chuckle] Now what? [chuckle] I don't... There's nothing left but to work, Christine unfortunately, so... Oh, but I think you're gonna have a real good time with this one.
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait.
Em Schulz: This is, uh, Blaise's favorite word, lore and, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Lore. [laughter] Okay.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Umm, this is, I guess a 101 on doppelgängers...
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp], I'm so excited.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I thought you froze for a second. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I did, I did. [laughter] But just in space and time.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just chemically. Umm, okay. So this... I, I really wanted it to be like a little creepier on... So I want it to be a little creepier. So there are stories, a very, very few, umm, I don't want people to think this is like gonna turn to a whole listener's episode afterwards, but, umm, there's some little like snippets of people with doppelgängers.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like this is one of those topics that's like, like you need the anecdotes to like round out the story.
Em Schulz: Well, I am glad you said that because I...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, but at the same time, I, I don't know. Let's just get into it and see what we, what we get. This is more informational at first so people know like what a doppelgänger is. So, umm, so it's German did you know that, the word?
Christine Schiefer: Of course. Yep.
Em Schulz: Do you know what it means?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it means, uh, like a, a... Uh, I'm trying to think of the best translation. "Doppel" is like "zwei"... Like a... "Zwei" is German. "Doppel" is two or like...
Em Schulz: Double.
Christine Schiefer: God, my English.
Em Schulz: I mean "doppel"...
Christine Schiefer: "Doppel" is double or two. And "ganger" is just someone who goes or walks.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So it's German for double goer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It just doesn't have the right ring.
Em Schulz: You know that.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Same ring I guess, which is why we stuck with the German.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, thanks for translating your German into more German. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [chuckle] Yeah, that was so like not helpful. I'm like, I'm like...
Em Schulz: What's the most like...
Christine Schiefer: "Doppel" means "zwei"? You're like, "What the fuck? Those are both not English words anyway."
Em Schulz: It's like that's the most hoity-toity thing you've ever done. It's...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: No, it's just stupid, not hoity-toity.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, yeah, it's German for double goer and, uh, in 1787 there was a provincial glossary that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Defined a doppelgänger as an apparition of a person living.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, whoa. Oh, I like that actually.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Maybe that has the, the ding you wanted.
Christine Schiefer: That's kinda the better way to describe it.
Em Schulz: So, and it's in English too.
Christine Schiefer: It's a, that is a win for sure.
Em Schulz: So the basic concept of a doppelgänger is it's your exact lookalike, but it is not some random human who happens to look similarly to you.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It is a non-human entity.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Boy, yuck.
Em Schulz: Uh, the modern ideal... It's the modern ideal of like your evil twin because a lot of people, uh, kind of associate doppelgängers with evil. Umm, but they aren't usually malicious. Most stories are, they appear and then they're gone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The idea is pretty old for a doppelgänger. I mean, it's been around at least since the 1787 provincial glossary.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: Umm, but the name itself was coined in 1796.
Em Schulz: Like officially the word doppelgänger. And it was coined by a German author named Jean Paul, which is a French name. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. How intriguing [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah, uh, so the name was then popularized by a famous spiritualist who I would like to cover eventually. Her name is Catherine Ann Crowe. And after she, I started talking about doppelgängers, it kind of took off. There, there are some other names for doppelgängers. There's double walker, shadow self, second self.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. Shadow self is good.
Em Schulz: Ain't that spooky?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it is.
Em Schulz: So the second self or the additional self, or whatever phrase you're more familiar with, that's its own like ancient concept at this point. Um, the second self in a lot of cultures and beliefs comes from the, the thought that we have a physical body and a spiritual body.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And the spiritual body is your second self. Sometimes the spiritual body is called the subtle body. Apparently that's more commonly used in like eastern practices.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And then in western practices, they'll call it the celestial body or the astral body. Um, I've also heard radiant body. There's body of life. It's a body. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Obviously. And, uh, this second body is said to be able to travel away from our physical, physical selves, often while being invisible. Um, which we have talked about astral travel.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Quite a lot on this show. Um, but like I said, a lot of times it's the second self is invisible. So when it detaches from you and travels around, nobody knows that it's happening.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, and this is actually a process. Uh, so physical body, spiritual or self, second self. When the second self leaves, it's often invisible, but when it is visible, apparently there's times where people see your astral body and not your physical body by accident.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And it could look like a doppelgänger of sorts. And by accident.
Christine Schiefer: I like that it's by accident... Oops.
Em Schulz: I, I imagine right? I don't, unless you're like really trying for people to... I don't know. I don't know how that happens, but apparently it's called bilocation.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: When you can be visibly seen in two places at the same.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I love that idea. Bilocation. That's cool.
Em Schulz: So when you're astral-projecting in your sleep, I'm gonna need you to really try extra hard for me to be able to see you. So we can see if bilocation is what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Why don't you just see me by accident? That'll be easier for both of us. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Then I don't have to try so hard [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, fun fact Pythagoras, uh, of the theorem, uh, he allegedly could bilocate and he would go to, and this is what's weird to me. I, I, I don't know too much about bilocation. I thought I was gonna end up in like a backroom situation and my head was gonna explode from science [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, but apparently this... You can intentionally split off and be seen in two different spaces. And that is what Pythagoras allegedly could do. They say he, he could bilocate and be seen in different cities hanging out with two different groups of people at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. So he was just like living it up. It wasn't just like, oh, he would appear. It's like he's actually living. He's like being intentional with this and like, he's like Zack and Codying all over the place.
Em Schulz: He, he's reclaiming his time. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Good for him.
Em Schulz: And also like how on earth is that math theory, the thing that he's known for? If he could do this.
Christine Schiefer: I'm saying like, hello, they're burying the lead.
Em Schulz: He could literally carbon copy himself, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's like no big deal, whatever.
Em Schulz: So, uh, these concepts, however of bilocation, the astral body, all this, they all refer to two versions of you being in two places at once, like your actual self.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But a doppelgänger is not a second you, it is another entity mimicking you.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] I see what you're saying. Okay. Okay. So these are different concepts.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, uh, doppelgängers are not actually you. You cannot control them. You cannot decide where they're going, what they're doing, what their plans are, all at the same time. They are perfectly mimicking you and can fool just about anyone because they look, sound, move, smell, act just like you.
Christine Schiefer: Oogh.
Em Schulz: In, in every way. All the way down to your laugh, all the way down to, I don't know, insert very small mundane thing.
Christine Schiefer: The hair on your chinny, chin, chin.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you've got one little whisker you're maybe insecure about.
Christine Schiefer: I do.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: I do. It's called my scar hair.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It grows outta my scar.
Em Schulz: Oh. That makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: And every now and then Blaise will say, um, "Your scar hair's back." And I'm like, "Damn it, I have to go pluck it."
Em Schulz: My mom is gonna kill me for this. And she already, I think she's screaming no from her car.
Christine Schiefer: She feels it.
Em Schulz: For what I'm gonna say, um.
Christine Schiefer: She's gonna appear behind you as a doppelgänger and be like, "I swear to God." [laughter]
Em Schulz: She's got, she's got a little neck, neck hair, uh, and she didn't know about it. I unfortunately, uh, uh, told her about it as like a teenager. And so now one of our favorite pastimes is when I'm in town, I pluck it for her. So. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's so thoughtful. So it's just the one?
Em Schulz: Uh, yes.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause mine's just one too. It's so weird. And it gets really long.
Em Schulz: I think. I think everyone's got at least one and it makes no fucking sense. It, it's another thing that makes you think, "Bodies are crazy."
Christine Schiefer: Its weird.
Em Schulz: Because like...
Christine Schiefer: Bodies, bodies are crazy. I'm like, I pull this sucker out. I got this scar when I was three years old and it's every, for my whole life, I'm plucking this thing out.
Em Schulz: Eva just volunteered information and said that she also has a chin hair [laughter] and her girlfriend plucks it for her. So I think we have all got this.
Christine Schiefer: See this is what I'm saying about, we know a lot about them and their relationship.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But like, just, you know, not 'cause we pry, it just kind of comes to us.
Em Schulz: I did say I... Like Eva just kind of says it and then, and then...
Christine Schiefer: Volunteers the, I mean, and I'm not...
Em Schulz: Now she is dating someone who will also just says it.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not complaining, you know, I love to get this intel and I need to know...
Em Schulz: I love...
Christine Schiefer: I'm not the only one with the scar hair.
Em Schulz: I love the info. No, I've got, um. I mean, I've got coarse weird hairs like that just sprout nowhere. You know what's so weird? I have two hairs. I have one right here. It's like, like where? Like what's the, behind your bicep?
Christine Schiefer: I don't fucking know.
Christine Schiefer: Tricep?
Em Schulz: Sure. One right there. And then I've got one behind my like ear lobe where hair does not grow, like hair.
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: Like, but both of them are the finest blondest hairs that are never there. And then are like, I'm not kidding, like three inches long. They're massive.
Christine Schiefer: If you don't know this about Em, Em has very dark hair. This is like a strange.
Em Schulz: It's like, and it's like platinum white, it happens one on my arm and one behind...
Christine Schiefer: What a phenomenon.
Em Schulz: My ear lobe. And I didn't ever know about the ear one until I was dating Allison. And all of a sudden I like went to go like, scratch my ear and I, I could tell, like, I could feel something tugging. And I was like, "Allison, you have to get it." And now like one of our favorite pastimes is her looking for my ear hair.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I swear to God, it's like all three of us and our partners are just looking for our, our hair, our individual hairs. Like Blaise is like, "The scar hair's back." You know, it's clearly...
Em Schulz: I'm not a hair person. I'm a blackhead person. And every time, or any zit Allison is in danger. Every time that she's got like a breakout, I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: "Let me at it." Oh. Oh my God. There's nothing I love more than like the little, than popping them. I'm so...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Oh, I can't, I just love it so much.
Christine Schiefer: Let's change the subject. Why did this even come up?
Em Schulz: No. Why?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. 'cause I said all the hair on your chinny chin chin. There's literally no other reason than that.
Em Schulz: But. Okay. But great point. If any of us were having a breakout or have a scar hair or something, our doppelgänger would have that too. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: They should. And if you check and they don't, then that's probably not me.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you ever meet me and I have flawless skin and my ears are not hairy, then.
Christine Schiefer: Something's very wrong here.
Em Schulz: Something's awry. [laughter] Umm, okay. So, uh, it all, it's also said that if you run into your doppelgänger, that is not good. Which I, I've heard that before where like, if you see yourself, then it's an omen.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I've also, I've heard that like they're, they're there to hurt you. Umm, or only one of you can be in the space at one time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or else like something terrible happens. So it's very quickly gone into like a, a dark place where doppelgängers like imply evil.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: In the UK and Ireland, they have a similar entity to a doppelgänger called the Fetch. Umm, and so if a doppelgänger appears when you're about to get hurt, umm, or, or appears, it implies that you will be hurt soon in some sort of omen way.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: A Fetch specifically is a doppelgänger that appears before someone dies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So it's almost like, umm.
Christine Schiefer: An omen.
Em Schulz: An omen and like what, like a black dog as an escort to hell or something. These...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "Hi, it's me, it's you. I'm you and I'm bringing you straight to hell."
Em Schulz: Hi.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That, that fits.
Em Schulz: What's the, what's the Taylor song? It's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's me, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And so are you 'cause you're me and I'm you [laughter]
Em Schulz: And so, uh, the Fetch will show up before someone dies. I also talked about that when we covered the Banshee. Umm, but...
Christine Schiefer: Uh yeah.
Em Schulz: The difference between the banshee and the fetch is that, uh, a banshee is said to do this, but not as a doppelgänger.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So like a Banshee was like a very beautiful woman a lot of times. Or just a random wailing human that would show up.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: Uh, you know, but a Fetch looks like you and it's going about your average usual day. Umm, so honestly, no one even knows. It's such a weird, like, this is an omen, but half the people that it runs into wouldn't even know.
Christine Schiefer: It's like catch-22. I don't know the right word, but yeah, exactly. It's like, how do you even determine that? Yeah. That's very trippy.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Yeah. It's like, "Thanks for the warning, but also I didn't know I... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But also that warning sucked. [laughter] Send a better one next time.
Em Schulz: At least a Banshee is a great warning. It's a beautiful woman who is just screaming bloody murder.
Christine Schiefer: I mean just fucking screaming, you know.
Em Schulz: Like she gets your attention, but...
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, "Oh, nothing good is happening now." I get it.
Em Schulz: But like, but like, if I were recording with your Fetch and they were talking about your scar hair, I'd be like, "Okay." And be completely unaware that this was a murder.
Christine Schiefer: What scar hair? I don't have a scar hair. Duh.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Do do do do, do do do do.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait, hold on. [Plays spooky music] [laughter] it worked.
Em Schulz: Uh, if, uh, if you're lucky by the way, the Fetch might appear for a near death experience instead of...
Christine Schiefer: If you're lucky, cool [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, if you're lucky, usually it arrives to warn you that you're going to die. But sometimes they appear to say like, "Oh, you're almost gonna die, but you'll make it. You'll be fine."
Christine Schiefer: Don't worry about it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So it's like very unhinged because it's letting you know something really fucking scary is gonna happen to you. And best case scenario, you almost die.
Christine Schiefer: I just feel like I don't wanna know, you know? Like...
Em Schulz: I dunno if I'd wanna know.
Christine Schiefer: If it's gonna happen no matter what. It just like, why just live with that pa... That that anxiety before... I don't know. It's, I don't know where to... Where I stand on this, but.
Em Schulz: It's another catch-22 because like, as someone who lives with constant dread and anxiety, it's like, "I'm already there but how much worse could it be?" But like.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And like, will it give me any sense of control? Maybe, but is it worth it? I don't know.
Em Schulz: It's also one of those things of like final destination and evading fate. It's like, "Well, if I get hit by a car, then what if I just don't leave the house?" But then like a car could come running through the wall, you know, like, you know, it's, I, I have no way, like we're, it's becoming sad happy hour. Hang on. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. That's only for Monday at five o'clock. Em, [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, the Fetch is your doppelgänger, but will show up to, I guess, warn somebody maybe itself that you're about to go through something.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: There's a story, uh, from Ireland that this guy saw his brother's fetch and didn't know it was a fetch.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Just thought it was his brother walking up to him in a field. Uh, he said, hey to his brother, but the brother said nothing and vanished before his very eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And later the guy found out that his brother was actually thousands of miles away, and I guess he must have evaded death because he lived for another 25 years. So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, that's a good sign. But I, that's so interesting. That sounds almost like astral projection where you kind of...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Go just to a loved one.
Em Schulz: Like, were you are thinking about each other or something? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, weird.
Em Schulz: Umm, also like, imagine just, Xandy just walking up to you, but thousands of miles away though...
Christine Schiefer: You know, he sleepwalks, so I can imagine it and it's horrific. 'cause he walks up to me and like, his eyes are just totally red and glazed over. And you'll be like, "Hello, what are you doing?" And he like, won't answer, he'll just stare at you. So I do feel like I live with this pretty regularly anyway. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: What if he's never slept walked and it was always his Fetch.
Christine Schiefer: Duh, dun dun dun. [Womp womp womp womp plays][Spooky music plays] Oh. [laughter] I hit the wrong button I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: No, that was the right button.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, fair. Maybe fate, fate put, fate led my finger to that button.
Em Schulz: Uh, there's also a, uh, there's a poet named Dora Sigerson Shorter who wrote a poem about a fetch, where a man was waiting outside for his girlfriend but, uh, she ended up being late and when she got there she said like, "Oh, I'm really sorry. I was behind a funeral procession, uh, procession, umm, and it was for this young woman, uh, and it was really weird. They started digging a grave for her at a crossroads."
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which, uh... And so she got freaked out and she took off. And the guy thought, I guess she has been late many times and he felt disrespected because he breaks up with her and...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Dick.
Em Schulz: And heart-broke...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, I was stuck behind a fucking funeral, but okay.
Em Schulz: Heartbroken the woman throws herself into a lake and drowns. All night long though, the guy hears his girlfriend crying, and so he eventually goes out to try to find her, but he gets stuck behind a funeral procession.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And because it ends up being his girlfriend's, uh, which like, by the way, the turnaround on a funeral was crazy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm sorry to laugh, but like, wow, they were on it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, he went to bed there was a funeral, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: Also he wasn't invited, that's pretty rude.
Em Schulz: Right. So in this story, uh, he gets behind a funeral procession and it ends up being his girlfriend's. And because she drowned herself and she took her own life, she was going to be buried under the crossroads.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God. I get it.
Em Schulz: So over time, uh, the Fetch has kind of evolved into, you know, uh, stories like that where you're, you're almost able to see a situation, not even a person...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Happening before you, where you see your own fucking funeral going by.
Christine Schiefer: Horrifying.
Em Schulz: Umm, there are also stories of the fetch appearing to people, uh, like bruised, battered, burned, like, looking in incredible pain, essentially foretelling how the person will soon die. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no, I, again, I don't wanna know.
Em Schulz: So you could show up all bloodied and it's like a, a warning of how it's gonna happen.
Christine Schiefer: That's horrible.
Em Schulz: One thing I thought was kind of interesting is, uh, the Fetch has also evolved in folklore over time to be more of like, a familiar to a witch, like a little animal...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: But they're known to, I think, I think this is right, I, my understanding is that familiars are shape shifters, uh, sometimes, and so, uh, the Fetch has become a familiar for witches that can disguise itself as the witch...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: And basically be the witch's doppelgänger.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So, and the, the version I saw, the source I saw was that, uh, so, like, the witch never has to leave their house to go run errands. They can just make her familiar do it.
Christine Schiefer: Now, see, you know, I fucking love that. Like, 'cause my first thought, and I didn't wanna say it 'cause I'm like, "This is gonna sound so stupid," but I was like, my first thought was, "Man, it would be nice to have somebody to just, like, go run my errands for me and stuff," you know?
Em Schulz: It would be lovely. And hey, witches found a way to do it. So...
Christine Schiefer: What a dream.
Em Schulz: Get yourself a doppelgänger, make one if you have to.
Christine Schiefer: Man, I might.
Em Schulz: In Scotland there's another similar being to the doppelgänger called the Co-walker.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, that's a good name too, Co-walker.
Em Schulz: Uh, it, it's apparently a fairy being, umm, who shows up, uh, kind of whenever, like, doesn't really have a rhyme or reason, and it's not to warn you of death, has no connection to death, it's just a doppelgänger that...
Christine Schiefer: Is bored.
Em Schulz: Appears.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, uh, this Co-walker will participate in everyday activity, you might think that you just saw Blaise walk by brushing his teeth, but it was a Co-walker who just wanted to, I guess have the experience. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I hope it's worth it 'cause...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's not really an exciting thing to do, but whatever.
Em Schulz: It's truly, like, even the most mundane things people will...
Christine Schiefer: That's almost...
Em Schulz: See a Co-walker.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say that is almost freakier though, like, like, why?
Em Schulz: It's the uncanny valley or something of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, it feels creepier that there's no intention or no...
Christine Schiefer: No meaning or big, bigger purpose. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Also When something mysterious or creepy or misunderstood appears, you usually are... You're prepared to be on edge...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I feel like if you just watch it brushing its teeth...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, if you were watching Jeffrey Dahmer brush his teeth or murder somebody, brushing his teeth is almost disturbing in its own way 'cause it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Like, it has a, a, uh, what's the word? A sinister quality to it for some reason.
Em Schulz: And what's weird is, I think what's weird about that is, it feels sinister because it feels more human and it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. That's a great point. That's a great point.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It doesn't feel like an us versus them. It's like, "Ew, you're weirdly... "
Christine Schiefer: You're just copying us.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So anyway, uh... [chuckle]
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Anyway, quickly, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway...
Em Schulz: The Co-walker, uh, will just do mundane things and people, I guess there's some people out there who have a gift where they can actually see fairies, umm, and if you have this gift you can also see Co-walkers.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So I guess that means a lot of people don't see Co-walkers. It's people just looking like you, doing things like you, mimicking you without even wanting to be seen doing it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So that's an interesting concept. Like how do you even...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Maybe one theory is that anyone can see them and one theory is only if you can see fairies, you can see them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That makes... Uh, that makes sense.
Em Schulz: But apparently people who have seen them have, have seen people that they thought were at a party with them or having, you know, they were up... Literally a pallbearer at a funeral and apparently they were just co-walkers. And my question to that, not to get like all like either existential or like space and time, but if you think you're seeing somebody at a party who was expected to be there, where's the actual person? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's a great point. Like, did they...
Em Schulz: Like, are they swapping realms?
Christine Schiefer: Did they cease to exist for a minute? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Are...
Christine Schiefer: Are they at home?
Em Schulz: Are they both at the party, but one's like getting punch and the other is on the dance floor.
Christine Schiefer: They're just avoiding each other like a sitcom?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. That's a great question.
Em Schulz: Umm, but this is, this is kind of the creepier thing to me is like, how do these co-walkers select the person they're going to mimic?
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, and apparently they will just pick somebody and then attach to them.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And throughout the rest of your life they will randomly show up, show up and mimic you. So it's never a, a one and done, it seems like, oh, five years later, people will still think they saw you walking down the street downtown, but you were sleeping, so.
Christine Schiefer: I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Very creepy. I don't like that at all. There's a 17th century folklorist named Robert Kirk who said, "It accompanies that person so long and frequently, whether to guard him from the secret assaults of some of its own folks, or only as a sportful mimicry to counterfeit all of his actions." So basically one theory is that they will select you because they're protecting you from other fairy folk.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And to disguise themselves as you is almost a distraction or to veer them away from you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, I guess I'll take that.
Em Schulz: So far it's the only theory where like, they're doing it out of like love and protection and they're keeping you safe.
Christine Schiefer: But I'm sort of like, what... Are there strings attached? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's a good point.
Christine Schiefer: Like, why? Like why, you know what I mean? Like, why me?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Also, why do, why do some fairies wanna...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Get me?
Christine Schiefer: What did I do?
Em Schulz: And also if they wanna get me, did I do something wrong and do I deserve it? So is the person defending me like also an outlaw? You know, like...
Christine Schiefer: Great question. Are we both now in trouble? Oh my gosh. So many questions.
Em Schulz: Uh, the other theory is, oh, it's not here to protect you. It's just being an asshole and causing, causing a ruckus, and just...
Christine Schiefer: I'm almost bit more happy with that theory. It seems like a, a less dangerous...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you know what, you can fuck around if you want. I, I don't want a whole fairy folk after me...
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't need a whole...
Christine Schiefer: But you know, if you wanna just run around downtown, go for it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you wanna buy me things and bring it home, that's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Like, yes. If you wanna do my groceries and brush my teeth, fine. Here's the even weirder part though. Sometimes these, uh, co-walkers are still attached to you after death and people have reported seeing their dead loved ones still walking around because the Co-walker is still existing as them...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Come on...
Em Schulz: Years after they died.
Christine Schiefer: That's not fair.
Em Schulz: That's wild. And like, I wonder, like I sometimes wonder what's lore and what's that... Like if someone truly thinks that they saw...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Their dead loved one and they live in a space or a culture where the answer to that is fairies. I wonder in like another culture that is like, oh, psychologically you're having a flashback or something. Like, I, I wonder...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Interesting point.
Em Schulz: Like, I wonder where the overlap is, but, umm, still...
Christine Schiefer: Or like if it's an apparition...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Of your ghost versus like a doppelgänger who's mimicking you.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? Like, 'cause I feel like usually if you see someone who's dead, you're like, "Oh, it's their ghost," but like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Huh.
Em Schulz: Oh, trippy.
Christine Schiefer: In-trips, in-tripping. Okay. Christine.
Em Schulz: It sure is.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ, Christine.
Em Schulz: It sure is. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, just a, a few like similar beings or similar doppelgängers. Umm, there's, in Finland, there's a similar, uh, elf-like-being called the Haltija, but umm, this is known to be a guardian spirit, so will be like that.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's good.
Em Schulz: One type of Haltija is a... They're also called Firstcomers because they show up first.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, these Firstcomers in the Haltija realm are called the Etiäinen and they mimic people just like a doppelgänger. And these entities know what you'll be doing at every moment and beat you to the punch doing everything slightly before you.
Christine Schiefer: For what? That sounds like your annoying sibling being like, like copying everything you say.
Em Schulz: They are... But, so, and I think this one is more like of an astral realm 'cause I don't know if people are actually seeing these creatures, but it seems more...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like a symbolic thing because what I'm gauging from it, in my understanding, is that these beings are the reason that you have like, gut feelings and deja vu because you're sensing something that already lived out as you.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. That's actually really cool. So it's like going ahead to like, it's not just to like mock you, which was my immediate thought, but to like prepare...
Em Schulz: Yeah, 'cause remember these are, these are guardian spirits. They're guarding us.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay.
Em Schulz: So they're almost like going out ahead of you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's really interesting. I kind of like that, I'm back on board.
Em Schulz: And I kind of like that it gives, umm, uh, a very warm reason for deja vu of like, "Oh, your guardian spirit is just oh, has already gone out onto the, onto the path and has made sure everything's good for you and you can feel safe."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I like that.
Em Schulz: Really love them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. I take it back. Sorry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Your deja vu doppelgänger is like, "Fuck you." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was like, "Well there goes my chance." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so I think that's very interesting. And then in Norway, there's another being kind of like that, that travels ahead of you called The Vardøger. Um, and I, I, I assume they, it does similar things. There's another one called the Fylgjas, but they appear to your friends instead of you. So instead of you having deja vu, it's like, if you had a dream about me or you just thought of me, and then all of a sudden I call you in real life, it's.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Instead of it being a guardian spirit that, um, is making sure everything's clear for you. And thus you have deja vu. Uh, the Fylgjas is almost like giving friends a little announcement that I'm about to appear in your life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I kind of like that too. Like, knock, knock.
Em Schulz: It's like everyone's got like, not a jester, but the hear ye hear ye person.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. With the little trumpet. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, if you ever have a dream of me, uh, and then all of a sudden you see me the next day or something... And it's something you didn't expect, and all of a sudden I pop up that is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, help me.
Em Schulz: That's my Fylgjas telling you.
Christine Schiefer: Your Fylgjas better fucking warn me 'cause I, I need some ample warning before you just appear at, like, if I'm seeing you out of surprise, like usually I see you because we know we're gonna see each other. Yeah. I need a warning for that.
Em Schulz: I feel like instead of a...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: [trumpet noise] trumpet, I need like the SpongeBob alarm clock, fog horn, [laughter] you know...
Christine Schiefer: You need this [womp womp womp womp sound plays].
Christine Schiefer: I feel like, oh, Anne's coming. God damnit.
Em Schulz: I wonder if you have a dream of me and I have a dream of you. And neither of us know we're about to see each other. Like at the supermarket, are our Fylgjas also friends? Like are they...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they're hanging out.
Em Schulz: Are they like just kind of getting coffee together before like the real deal storms in and they're like, Ugh. You know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're like, "Oh God, here they go again."
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, basically if you dream or think of somebody, uh, it means that they're, uh, it means you sensed their Fylgjas arriving ahead of them or something.
Christine Schiefer: I kind of love that. Yeah. That's fun.
Em Schulz: They all kind of clumped together. My understanding is like they're all, they all fall into the, oh, they appear before you actually get there.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So that is the Haltija, the Vardøger, the Etiäinen and the Fylgjas. And people have actually heard a Vardøger turning on showers, or they could hear footsteps of a person. And it's, this is interesting because it makes me think just like how we were saying, "Oh, is it, um, uh, is it a doppelgänger or is it like psychologically something, or is it a ghost? Or is it deja vu?"
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: In this area a Vardøger sounds similar to like a haunting, because a Vardøger will turn on showers, they'll turn on the stove. You'll hear footsteps of the person you know walking around, but then you'll realize you're the only person at home.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's interesting.
Em Schulz: So a Vardøger... And by the way, it doesn't mean they actually like turn on the shower or turn on the stove, but the sounds of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you just hear it like, like this things...
Em Schulz: The sounds of the person that you live with or you know of are surrounding you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And so again, psychologically, I wonder if that's just like muscle memory of like, you're used to hearing Blaise walking around upstairs, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like you hear. Right. And I feel like that's a common...
Em Schulz: And so your brain plays tricks on you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Isn't that a common thing in, I think, was it Ireland where there's, there's like a, it's probably a same concept, maybe you even said it already, but, uh, like a person, a doppelgänger sort of who arrives home before you, and like you hear them open the door, toss their bag to the side, take off their shoes, go up the stairs, and then you're like...
Em Schulz: Hear the keys.
Christine Schiefer: "Where are you?" Yeah. And then you look out and they're pulling up into the driveway. I feel like that's, I think it's in Ireland that's a really common... thing.
Em Schulz: Very similar to all these other ones of like...
Christine Schiefer: That what it sounds like. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You're, you're sensing their, their little trumpet man has warned you that they're on their way. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Has thrown its keys, so you know they're coming. [laughter] That's really nice.
Em Schulz: There's a, one example of this is there's a story of a guy named Jacob who was at home with his parents and they hear Jacob's, uh, like carpentry tools being used.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And basically the whole family knew that, "Oh, well we're all here. We're not using the tools." Uh, sounds like the tools are gonna be used shortly in the future, and our doppelgängers are warning us of that. I would've thought someone's broken into the garage...
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, [laughter] it's like, that's a very calm way to look at it, I suppose.
Em Schulz: I like that all three of them are like, "Oh, the little trumpet man for the tools is letting me know that the tools will be used soon."
Christine Schiefer: How thoughtful of him. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so the next morning...
Christine Schiefer: He's just using a chainsaw in the garage. It's just, it's fine. He's just saying hi.
Em Schulz: What a good point. Like, how annoying are carpentry tools when you're not using them? Like...
Christine Schiefer: And also like, dangerous, like who's running the chainsaw? Do they know how to use it? Have they had the proper training?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Does OSHA know that? Like is there, [laughter] is there a doppelgänger OSHA? [laughter] Um I, there's nothing more annoying to me in the sound of hammering when I'm not the one hammering.
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: So imagine you're at home and, yeah, at 3:00 AM you hear.
[vocalization of chainsaw sound]
Christine Schiefer: You are absolutely correct. I would be beside myself irritated.
Em Schulz: Uh, so anyway, the next morning though, the neighbor comes over and asks Jacob if he can use his tools. So, um, he needed them, by the way, to make a coffin for his son that died that night.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Again, the turnaround is crazy. Um, this isn't, I don't know if this is a real story, by the way. I'm pretty sure this is like a, like an urban legend, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, but he says, "I need to make a coffin. And my son died last night." And it, it theoretically happened at the same time that Jacob and his family heard the tools.
Christine Schiefer: Well that's interesting because I feel like that brings it back to the omen almost.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, it's not just like, "Oh, he needs his tools." It's like for, for a death that occurred, like it's almost Ooh. Ooh.
Em Schulz: That's interesting. 'cause I wonder, oh man, hang on. My brain's about to explode because I feel like, uh, yeah, it's almost a death omen of what's to come. But at the same time it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Like a degree removed almost. Like...
Em Schulz: It's like the tools showed up, like the little trumpet man for the tools said, "This is gonna happen."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But then like there was actually a darkness to it that said, "Death is coming."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like it's... So is the trumpet man good or bad at this point? I'm confused.
Christine Schiefer: I, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe there's a bad trumpet man?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe chaotic-neutral? I'm not sure.
Em Schulz: Do the trumpet man, does the trumpet man have a trumpet man?
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, umm.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Now we're really getting in it. Your head.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Em Schulz: Is it, is it just on earth or like, do aliens have trumpet men?
Christine Schiefer: This Excedrin...
Em Schulz: Is that's why we have...
Christine Schiefer: Is not powerful enough for this conversation. I'm sorry, I just have to say it.
Em Schulz: Fair enough. [laughter]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So anyway, in some cultures, as you were saying earlier, a doppelgänger can also, uh, is also the concept of your shadow.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: So your shadow is a doppelgänger, which it is a doppel... It is a perfect image of you, which, just the outline...
Christine Schiefer: I guess so, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and because it is in theory a doppelgänger or a second self, you should...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Respect it as such. So in Germany...
Christine Schiefer: Does anyone not respect it? Oh, okay. I'm about to find out.
Em Schulz: In Germany, uh, there are some who say when using a lantern, if you look at your shadow and it is headless, or if your shadow is not there at all, if it's distorted in some way, it means you will die within a year because your second self is already detaching from you.
Christine Schiefer: It like [laughter] It means step to the left until you are no longer being blocked by this windowsill...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So you can see your head again is what I'm gonna take from that, 'cause that's horrible.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's horrible. What do you mean you're gonna, your head is gone so you're gonna die in a year, also a year is a long time. Like, if you're like, "Oh, within 24 hours," at least for that 24 hours I can be anxious. And once it's passed, I'm like, okay, a year of like sitting on pins and needles hoping you're not gonna die?
Em Schulz: And what if it's exactly to the minute of a year? So for 365 days and 23 hours and 59 minutes...
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "We're all almost done," oh, no.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, my God. Uh, anyway, so shout out to Germany, umm, also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Classic.
Em Schulz: They've even said also respect your shadow by never stepping on it, because you're damaging it in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's impossible.
Em Schulz: I know. Well, I mean, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't it attached to your feet?
Em Schulz: It is. Your, your, your toes are always kissing. Those little piggies are getting into each other...
Christine Schiefer: Eww, uh.
Em Schulz: You know what I'm saying? They're snuggling...
Christine Schiefer: Veto, veto.
Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, don't step on your shadow, uh, because one of the theories is, you and your doppelgänger can't either be in a room together or they can't harm each other. And so if you're stepping on your shadow you're harming your second self and it's an omen for you, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In other cultures there are, like, natural objects like stones that can, you know, spirits are known to connect with, which we have obviously discussed that in full detail in our friendship of stones and crystals and all that...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Being attached spiritually. Umm, so there's a theory that if your shadow ever passes over one of these natural objects that a spirit is attached to, the spirit can jump from the natural stone into your shadow and possess you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's interesting.
Em Schulz: I think that's super cool. But also if you ever touch anything, eventually your shadow goes over it, right? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So no matter what, if you're touching it your shadow is already...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So I guess that kind of makes sense though, because we have said, if you touch a crystal, it's, you know, you're, you're letting the energy absorb through you, right?
Christine Schiefer: Right. That's a great point. So it's like, that's just a more direct way of your shadow coming in contact with it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: So I guess if, uh, if a crystal has any, like, dark energy...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Maybe, I hope also good energy, but if it has any dark energy attached to it, it can, uh, cross into you through...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Your shadow, Because it's going through your astral body first and then into you.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Umm, allegedly if, uh, oh, oh, allegedly one of the worst things that can happen to your shadow self or your doppelgänger is for it to be harmed, and that can mean much worse for you 'cause if your second self is in danger, your primary self is for sure in danger.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So, uh, here's one quick anecdote, that Catherine The Great apparently woke up one night to her servants freaking out because they just saw her sitting at her throne, but it was actually a doppelgänger.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Threatened by this Catherine the Great ordered them to kill whoever was sitting in her throne, AKA she threatened them, or told them to kill her own doppelgänger.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no, girl.
Em Schulz: Essentially ordering her own execution, and shortly after she died of a stroke once her doppelgänger had also been killed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And although some say seeing your doppelgänger could be dangerous or deadly, German folklore, they give us a pass and they say it's only deadly once you've seen your doppelgänger three times. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Thanks Germans.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Umm, fun fact, Abraham Lincoln claimed that he saw his doppelgänger three times after his first election.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: One was in...
Christine Schiefer: Three times? [Gasp]
Em Schulz: He saw himself in the mirror, or when he looked in the mirror, he saw two of him.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: One of them looked pale and ghostly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And then, he, and one of his quotes about this was, "I was a little bothered, but the illusion vanished." Which like...
Christine Schiefer: Boy.
Em Schulz: A little bothered, I would literally never sleep again, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: I would be screwed.
Em Schulz: He apparently saw it once, a little, this, uh, doppelgänger, a little cloudy. Then he saw it a second time and the doppelgänger was clearer, which is even scarier 'cause I feel like that means a prophecy is being fullfilled.
Christine Schiefer: Agreed. It's like growing in power or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then the third time he saw it, his wife was even freaked out. Remember his wife was, like, really into spiritualism.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and she interpreted this as, he is going to serve two terms as presidents, uh, but he won't survive the second time, which is correct.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. She really [chuckle] took that and ran with it.
Em Schulz: She really says this is my specific...
Christine Schiefer: Like, I know what this means.
Em Schulz: My specific vision, and, uh, it was still right.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's terrible.
Em Schulzr: Umm, also fun fact, the husband of Mary Shelley, the writer of Frankenstein...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, Percy Shelley, he also saw his doppelgänger multiple times just before his death.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And the first time he saw it, it apparently it looked him in the eyes and asked him, "How long do you mean to be content?"
Christine Schiefer: How dare you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Which, like, what's it to you guy?
Christine Schiefer: First of all, what do you even mean? Second of all, how dare you?
Em Schulz: How long do you mean to be content? Does that mean like, how long do you plan on being happy? Or how long do you plan on being here?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I guess, right. Like how...
Em Schulz: Also they talk to you? I thought, like I, in my mind a doppelgänger...
Christine Schiefer: Is it your voice?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, I hope so. I don't, well, do I [laughter]? I feel like.
Christine Schiefer: Do I? I don't know.
Em Schulz: I, uh, you know how like you hate the sound of your own voice on a recording?
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Imagine having to look yourself in the eyes and hear that voice. Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely. I'd be like, "What's wrong with your face?" It'd be like, "This is literally what you look like." And I'd go, "Oh, no." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'd be like, you didn't get that one whisker on your chin [laughter] Umm.
Christine Schiefer: [Laughter] nice try.
Em Schulz: And they'd be like, "You either, that's why I have this." [laughter] Uh, so anyway, he, the first time he saw it, it asked him that very eerie question.
Christine Schiefer: Mmmh.
Em Schulz: The next time he saw the, his doppelgänger was when he went into his own bedroom and saw himself standing over the bed strangling his wife in her sleep.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And then he died shortly after.
Christine Schiefer: That's so weird that it was hurting someone else, but then it was an omen of his own death. That's so weird.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It was like, are... Is it, are both of you in danger? Can a doppelgänger for somebody else be there to hurt you?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Isn't that weird? I would... Huh?
Em Schulz: 'Cause you would think if it's connected enough to you that it looks identical to you and sounds like you, then it cares a lot more about you. Or I wonder, I don't know, maybe that's the beginning of a really good, like true crime mysterys like psychological.
Christine Schiefer: Sci-fi thing.
Em Schulz: Because it feels like a second version of you comes down and says, "How long do you mean to be happy?"
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: And then the next time you see him, he's killing your wife.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Like, were you having a, like a, a breakdown? Like a mental breakdown?
Christine Schiefer: And that is... That's... And what if she wakes up and she's, and you're like, it wasn't me. But like, you know.
Em Schulz: And that also freaks me out. Like, what if she was having a bad dream and felt like she was being choked and had no idea it was like her husband's spiritual doppelgänger.
Christine Schiefer: Ahhh!
Em Schulz: Oy, there's so many...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think I like that.
Em Schulz: Anyone who's stoned right now is really...
Christine Schiefer: I was... You know, it's so f...
Em Schulz: Like fried out of their mind.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously 'cause I was gonna ask, was he on drugs? [laughter] I don't, I'm not even joking. Like it sounds like something.
Em Schulz: I don't know. It feels like something like when you're having a nervous breakdown, maybe you could like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: See something happening before you, maybe he thought like an out-of-body experience. Like maybe he was choking her?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe he was dissociating. You know what I mean? Like a psychotic break. I don't know. Another cool doppelgänger story is this one guy named Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe.
Christine Schiefer: Goethe.
Em Schulz: Goethe?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You don't know Goethe?
Em Schulz: Mm-mm.
Christine Schiefer: He's a, a very famous, umm, old timey author.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yeah, it does say author. I think I didn't... I forgot to say that. Umm, well, he has had a doppelgänger experience. Where he was riding his horse down his road toward town and he saw himself coming up the road and they were gonna pass each other. And he...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Apparently hims... He saw himself dressed in a gray suit with gold trim, looked very dapper. And then that was kind of the end of the first half of that experience. But eight years later he's riding home from town.
Christine Schiefer: Ahhhh.
Em Schulz: And he sees someone, you know, gets about to cross him or cross his path and he realizes when he looks down that he's wearing that gray suit with gold trim.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, I love those stories.
Em Schulz: And he realizes he saw his future self.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. It's so spooky.
Em Schulz: Uh, I can't, I truly can't think of anything creepier than that Reddit story of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: A guy eating a sandwich in the kitchen and one day years later he sees the other half of that perspective.
Christine Schiefer: So it's, it's I know I'm always telling this, but it's atleast...
Em Schulz: No, I wanted you to.
Christine Schiefer: The first time I heard it was on Jim Harold's Campfire, so I'm not sure if the original person told it on Jim Harold's Campfire or if like, they just took the Reddit story if it's the same person. I'm not sure. Umm, but the person on Jim Harold, uh, described being a little kid and running through his childhood home and seeing a man in a hoodie at the counter, uh, of his kitchen. And he like ran back and looked in and the guy was gone. And so he kind of never thought anything of it. And then, you know, decades later he's back visiting his family's house and he's making a sandwich in the kitchen and he sees something outta the corner of his eye and he turns and he sees a little kid run past and they make eye contact. And it turns out he realizes decades later he was seeing himself and vice versa. Whaaat!
Em Schulz: And I don't know the episode, if anybody who's listening to this knows the number, please DM me or something. 'cause I, I just, I wanna hear myself tell the story again. But there's that one haunted house where the guy was living there and he would have like, there would be moments where all of a sudden he could like see into the past, like he could see the house's past.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp] Yes. Like in the dining room or whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah. He, like, he saw a whole family like having dinner...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they like looked back at him and then they realized that he...
Christine Schiefer: And they saw him, ohhh.
Em Schulz: Like they thought... They realized he was part of the future and he knew he was looking at the past something.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. My God.
Em Schulz: Like, like the house completely changed when he looked in that room and then he like blinked and it looked like his house again or something.
Christine Schiefer: Woahh.
Em Schulz: So I, if anybody knows what episode that was, I wanna know what that location was so then you know.
Christine Schiefer: It was a story of a house. Yeah. I feel like, uh, someone will know. 'cause I, I thought that that was a really, really cool story. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That... I remember that one was one of the, like the m... If we ever had like a best of 10 episode blah, blah, blah like goosecams, I would say like that one for sure. Fucked me. Like that was so creepy that one story.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I love that. Let's, let's make somebody else find it for us.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know what it is. Uh, there's another story that in 1845, this is one of the most famous doppelgänger cases. It's the story of, uh, Emilie Sagee, Sagee. Umm, I think it's French and uh, She was a teacher, uh, at a, at a girl's school and she was writing on the board and all of a sudden saw her doppelgänger standing next to her and who didn't have chalk or anything to write on the board, but was mimicking her movement to a T of writing while she was writing.
Christine Schiefer: Eeww.
Em Schulz: And was just writing in the air next to her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And what's interesting about this is what... What makes it the most famous doppelgänger case, or one of them, is that 13 students in the classroom also saw...
Christine Schiefer: Ahh.
Em Schulz: The doppelgänger writing in the air.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: And this became the first of multiple sightings of her doppelgänger around the school.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: And here's a little plot twist. Emilie already knew about this doppelgänger because apparently this doppelgänger is a regular in her life.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: She's like, "Not again."
Em Schulz: Yes, yes. Uh, apparently she had to admit it later to the school that every time she starts a new job, her doppelgänger appears and begins showing up at her place of business.
Christine Schiefer: That is horrifying. And so strange.
Em Schulz: Obviously people freaked out and so, uh... Or people often freaked out when they'd see her doppelgänger at her job. So she would lose a lot of jobs.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And she'd have to change jobs a lot. So even though it was completely harmless, people just saw her doppelgänger like walking the grounds or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, man.
Em Schulz: Drinking water or something. Um, even though it was harmless in 16 years, Emilie had worked at almost 20 schools.
Christine Schiefer: Nooo.
Em Schulz: 'cause she had to keep leaving. And so one day...
Christine Schiefer: That's too bad.
Em Schulz: One day Emilie's out in the garden at the school, and the whole school is very small, only like 40 girls, but all of them could see Emilie in the garden from her window. Uh, from their window in their classroom.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They're looking out, they see her, but then in their room a second Emilie appears at the desk.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "What are you guys up to?" [chuckle]
Em Schulz: She's like, "Are we snooping? Are we staring at her?"
Christine Schiefer: That's horrifying.
Em Schulz: The kids literally tried to approach this second Emilie and touch her, but they only felt cobwebs.
Christine Schiefer: [Gasp]
Em Schulz: Isn't that crazy?
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, yuck.
Em Schulz: And then she vanished.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yuck.
Em Schulz: And af... After that, the principal had to let her go. So I guess she's going to school number 20.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: Um, because parents started taking their kids outta school 'cause they didn't want their kids anywhere near a doppelgänger. Um, many cultures are so worried about interacting with a doppelgänger that they avoid even getting pictures taken of themselves because a picture could capture part of your soul and create a second you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Or a doppelgänger. And then, in uh, like today's modern versions, at least in the US there's a lot of people who say, if you interact with your doppelgänger or run into your doppelgänger, or if the two of you make eye contact, then you are gonna die soon. It's very quickly been turned into a death omen.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: I also saw that apparently this has to be like a seventh grade boy thing. Um, they said if you ever see your doppelgänger on site, you have to fight each other...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: And the... And only the survivor gets to live as that person for the rest of time. Which sounds like the exact opposite of all the other advice we've been given to like, avoid any trouble with this thing.
Christine Schiefer: Doesn't this sound a little bit like the Jordan Peele film?
Em Schulz: Oh, not Get Out.
Christine Schiefer: Us.
Em Schulz: Nope. Us. Us.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like they're all tethered to each other.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Not to... I don't wanna spoil it, but it's a similar concept.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I mean, they are literal doppelgängers.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So... Oi, well anyway, that is, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Em, oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: That's the lore of a doppelgänger.
Christine Schiefer: You really just revived my spirits after Eva crushed them into a pulp.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding, Eva. I feel bad. Like Eva hasn't even told us anything like bad today. I'm just... I don't know why.
Em Schulz: She literally just said, "Hi, how are you? I'm at Starbucks." And we were like Urghh.
Christine Schiefer: And we were like, blaah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Poor Eva. Um, no, I think, uh, this is called transference. That's not what it's called, but, uh...
Em Schulz: We can call it that though.
Christine Schiefer: Eva says she's taking one for the team, which, what else is new? Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So can I tell one quick doppelgänger story that I heard recently? Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That I just loved. So it was on, of course, Jim Harold's Campfire. Please go listen to it. I feel like, oh...
Em Schulz: We love Jim Harold.
Christine Schiefer: And I listen to it every single week when it comes out. And every time somebody says... When he says the, uh, you know, so-and-so's on the line, they heard about us from Em and Christine, I lose it. Like I get... I literally make everybody in the house listen. And I'm like, "Listen, listen." And Blaise is always like, "Yep, [chuckle] It's happening again." And he's very supportive, but I'm sure it's very annoying. But it's so exciting when people are like, "Oh, I found out about you through And That's Why We Drink. It makes my day.
Em Schulz: It's so sweet. And also... And Jim Harold is our podcast inspo for...
Christine Schiefer: Like, it was the first show we both listened to and like would be fangirling about, you know, so to speak.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, totally. No, absolutely. I... Fangirl for sure. Even if you're non-binary or a, a big old alpha male bro...
Christine Schiefer: We all know...
Em Schulz: Yeah, you've, you gotta fangirl every now and then.
Christine Schiefer: We all fangirl every now and then you know.
Em Schulz: And I totally do with Jim Harold. I'll go, "Ah! I'm so excited."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That is what I do every time. It's like Em and Christine, I'm like, "He just said my name." And it's like, "Okay, well I've... We've met him." It's not like that weird, but to me it's very exciting.
Em Schulz: He's literally come to our live shows. So... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But I'm like, "Ah, he said my name. He knows who I am."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, so re... Uh, was it a few weeks ago or maybe a few months ago, there was a story, a woman called in. Oh my God Em, it was, it was crazy. She called in, she works at a hospital and she says, you know, "I was taking, uh... I was taking a... " What are these things called? A stretcher?
Em Schulz: A cart? A stretcher? A gurney?
Christine Schiefer: A gurney? Well not... Yeah. Is it... What what is it called when you're not dead? [chuckle] And you're on one of those?
Em Schulz: Alive? What?
Christine Schiefer: A bed.
Em Schulz: A bed?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I don't know. Obviously I'm very good at this and um, I shouldn't...
Em Schulz: Like a hospital bed?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like... Well, like rolling somebody from like... To the x-ray room or something, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think that's still a gurney.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So anyway, she's like transferring a patient or something. She gets in the elevator and there are two sets of elevators and she's on one. And on the other side she sees a person who looks exactly like her and they make eye contact. And in the other elevator, like behind a bunch of people and she's just staring at this person and then the doors close and she's like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "What the hell? That was so weird." And then, um, later on in the day, she forgets about it and she's going through her business, whatever. And, um, you know, it's the end of the day. She gets on the elevator and she's heading back upstairs and she looks over, a bunch of people, get in the elevator. She looks over and she fucking sees herself with the patient in the other elevator.
Em Schulz: [Gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And, and she sees herself going, like making the face of like, "Wait, what?" And so like, she... Within the same day, like saw the back and forth.
Em Schulz: So they, so they had the, the future and past thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But she, yeah. And so she saw herself going like, "Wait, what the fuck?" You know, like she saw that moment of like, "Holy shit."
Em Schulz: Nurses deserve more naps. I think. I think...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh well. Yes.
Em Schulz: Uh, but also that... I mean, that is almost, I mean, it's freaky like...
Christine Schiefer: And I don't know if she was a nurse. I don't know what her role was at this hospital, but yes...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: It was, but she might have been a doctor, I'm not sure. But she was like, "I saw myself across the hall," and she thought, "Well, maybe I'm just imagining things. And it just looked like me." But then at the end of the day, she had totally forgotten, and was in that other elevator and kind of glanced out and went, "Oh my God. That's me"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's so trippy.
Em Schulz: You know, it's, it's a different type of existential fear that, uh, stories like that bring me, 'cause when it's future and past that, at least, it's not like a doppelgänger where it's like, there's another spirit mimicking me. You know? It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: This is just a glitch in the Matrix.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Because at least I know both versions of me are me, who I love and trust and know, and like, I can feel safe to know that like, we're both just freaked out at the experience.
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point.
Em Schulz: But it's still like a, "Okay, that's fully a glitch in the matrix. How the fuck did that happen?"
Christine Schiefer: How did it happen? And also, like, I feel like that just takes all element of reality away. Like...
Em Schulz: You will also...
Christine Schiefer: Clearly we don't know how reality works.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, for sure. And also in terms of like a glitch in the Matrix, you would think something like that where there's a two-parter, like you see yourself once and then you see...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The replay of it. You would think if there's a glitch in the Matrix and like God or whoever is up there, if, like, if there's a technical difficulty, you would think before the second event happens of like seeing yourself again...
Christine Schiefer: They'd fix it.
Em Schulz: They would like fucking fix it. So like, you'd be like, "well that was weird." But...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure that says something about the hospital system, the healthcare system and you know...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: There's a lot... There's a lot there...
Em Schulz: There's a lot going on. Umm, but no, that's just so creepy, like the fact that doppelgängers, we've covered hauntings, we've covered glitches in the Matrix. We've... I mean there's so many things we've discussed, the astral projection, dreams, deja vu, it just, they kind of find their way in any, any type of way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it's, it seems like they almost somehow overlap in a lot of ways, which is creepy too. 'cause it's like, wow.
Em Schulz: It's all connected.
Christine Schiefer: None of this is real. It's all connected.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Help.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Help.
Christine Schiefer: Help me.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. Okay. I guess it's my turn Em.
Em Schulz: I'm very excited for your story, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good. 'cause it iiiis a very exciting story. Umm, let me find it.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I was like, you seem lost, Christine, but...
Christine Schiefer: I am most of the time.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um, thank you for noticing. Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So this is a story that I actually, uh, heard about on Box of Oddities while we're shouting out podcasts. Uh, who were, who were my pals that you got to meet in Florida.
Em Schulz: Oh, they were so nice.
Christine Schiefer: Aren't they a delight? Uh, Kat and Gigi.
Em Schulz: Delight.
Christine Schiefer: So much fun. Umm, and they... I finally got to meet them in person because we were supposed to meet pre-COVID and then, you know, that never happened. Uh, but, so anyway, I heard about this on their show and, uh, it's called "The Red Barn Murder." And...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's something I'd never heard about. Uh, and it doesn't seem to have been covered on a whole lot of podcasts, so I'm kind of excited to do like a little deep dive on this.
Em Schulz: Cool.
Christine Schiefer: All right. I'm gonna start off with a quote. Umm, you know, just, just pack a punch here and give you a little, uh, a little taste for what's to come.
Em Schulz: Ooh. I love a taste.
Christine Schiefer: I'll give you a little amuse-bouche. Uh, here we go.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "I never knew or heard of a case in my life, which abounded with so many extraordinary incidents as the present. It really appears more like a romance than a tale of common life. And were it not that the circumstances were so well-authenticated, it would appear absolutely incredible. It however, verifies the remark of Lord Byron, that truth is stranger than fiction."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And that was Magistrate Wyatt on the death of Maria Marten and her stepmother's strange dreams.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Do do do do, do do do do.
Em Schulz: Strange dreams. They are involved in this?
Christine Schiefer: I'm scared to hit the button 'cause I'm worried I'm gonna hit the wrong one, so I'm not gonna hit it.
Em Schulz: I'll... Which, which one do you want? I'll, like I'll also do it for you.
Christine Schiefer: The Do do do do, do do do do.
Em Schulz: Is that on here?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Didn't you hear me do it? [Womp womp womp womp sound plays]
[cackles]
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, I really...
Em Schulz: I just wanted to see if you'd do it again.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hold on here it is. [Spooky music plays]
Em Schulz: Oh that worked really well.
Christine Schiefer: That works, right? Do do do do, do do do do
Em Schulz: That's nice.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know what these other ones are.
[Sparkly music plays]
Christine Schiefer: That's beautiful Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: You know what we could do?
Em Schulz: Tell me.
Christine Schiefer: We could put elevator music on a button.
Em Schulz: We would literally... You'd have to hold it down the whole time I was peeing.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're right. It would never stop. People are like, "No, don't give them that power."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so let's get into the story. It's, it's a little bit, umm, supernatural as well. So I'm slightly creeping into your territory. Uh, but only a little bit. It's mostly a mur... Murder story.
Em Schulz: Just dipping the toes.
Christine Schiefer: Just a little tiny bit. So this takes place. May 18th, 1827. A young woman named Maria Marten left home under some strange circumstances. Her family waited months for a word from her, but nothing came. The story went that she had run off to be with her new husband and she simply didn't have time to write due to all the excitement. But still, something seemed off.
Christine Schiefer: Maria's family, of course, wanted to believe everything was all right because Maria had unfortunately been dealt a lot of unfair hands, both in romance and just in life in general. So I'll tell you a little bit of her backstory. Maria was born in Polstead, which is a tiny farming community in Suffolk, England. And her father worked as a mole catcher, which...
Em Schulz: Hmm. Which a mole catcher.
Christine Schiefer: I waited for Em to lift the microphone up [laughter] for that one.
Em Schulz: I, I, I was like this. I was like oooh.
Christine Schiefer: Oop.
Em Schulz: Ooh, okay. [laughter] Well, I hope that, you know, that means my attention was grabbed because...
Christine Schiefer: Immediate. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Her father was a mole catcher. I, I guess that's not for the time. Maybe it wasn't too weird. But in 2023, I don't think I've ever heard of that ever being someone's job besides like a terrier.
Christine Schiefer: Besides a terrier. [laughter] But besides a dermatologist, I was thinking, you know, like a mole catcher.
Em Schulz: Oh, like a mole catcher. [laughter] Well, I guess there used to be dog catchers, you know, so I'm, but moles specifically?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. At least Disney said.
Em Schulz: Moles specifically?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, because I think because it's a farming community, and so, you know, moles can really create a lot of... Wreak a lot of havoc on your crops. And...
Em Schulz: All right. Moles are just not my forte, I guess. I don't know. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: You know, we had moles growing up and they really do tend to fuck up your yard. Umm.
Em Schulz: What is a mole?
Christine Schiefer: So I imagine, what?
Em Schulz: What is a mole?
Christine Schiefer: What is a mole? Oh, Em.
Em Schulz: Like a, like a groundhog?
Christine Schiefer: You have so much to learn. There's a character in Germany...
Em Schulz: Let me Google it.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and he's a mole.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, umm, I used to read all the books. I'm trying to remember the name of the book. Uh, and he's this weird looking mole guy.
Em Schulz: Mole.
Christine Schiefer: What's his name?
Em Schulz: A European mole? Hmm.
Em Schulz: Eww?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Hmm. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Some of these are really not good-looking.
Christine Schiefer: No, they're very scary.
Em Schulz: Looks like Alf. Where are its eyes? Do they have eyes?
Christine Schiefer: No. They like live underground. I think they're blind.
Em Schulz: They literally don't have eyeballs?
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, they have eyes, I think. But they're, they're, I don't think they're known for their eyesight. [laughter] They're like...
Em Schulz: They certainly are not. 'cause like, my, with my eyes, I can't see their eyes.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Where are they?
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: What? They literally don't have eyes. There's literally no, that's, that's its face.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I found the mole. Okay. His name is Der kleine ma-. Okay, hold on. Der kleine Maulwurf.
Em Schulz: This looks like a Jim Henson Muppet, but like, that's in storage 'cause it never got finished.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Umm, this is the German mole I grew up with. Hang on, let me send you a picture. Moles were a big part of my childhood just because...
Em Schulz: I've literally never seen a mole until right now. And I...
Christine Schiefer: Are you serious?
Em Schulz: I wish I never had.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, that's the, it's the ugliest animal I've ever seen.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, come on. It is not.
Em Schulz: It's, it beats out that, that gloppy fish that everyone always shows pictures of with big lips. Well that mole's cute. That's a cartoon though. That has eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. He's not that ugly.
Em Schulz: No, he looks cute. The little cartoon.
Christine Schiefer: No, I, I mean the actual mole is not that ugly. Look at this one next to a flower.
Em Schulz: Christine, look at this. What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: He's cute.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna send you this picture 'cause I think you're not all there to be saying what you're saying.
Christine Schiefer: Just don't look up the star-nosed mole 'cause that isn't great for us.
Em Schulz: The star-nosed... Is there something worse than what I'm doing right now?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there is. I'll send you a picture of the star...
Em Schulz: Hang on, Star...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Look up star-nosed mole.
Em Schulz: Star-nosed mole.
Em Schulz: Oh my god. [laughter] Oh my god. It's nose looks like a butthole.
Christine Schiefer: It looks like this stranger things like.
Em Schulz: It's a little demogorgon. It looks like a butthole. I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: You know what? You are such a...
Em Schulz: It looks like a sphincter. That's...
Christine Schiefer: You know what.
Em Schulz: You know...
Christine Schiefer: Eva just... Eva just texted. Let's become obsessed with moles, Christine, in addition to possums. [laughter] So you know what? Fuck off Em.
Em Schulz: Eva can rot. That is so evil. That is so evil.
[cackles]
Christine Schiefer: I just want the record to show that was not my idea. Umm, but I'm on board.
Em Schulz: Umm, Megan, eventually you're gonna listen to this. I know you are. Umm, you have to find the ugliest pictures of star-nosed moles so that everyone's on my side.
Christine Schiefer: You know, no. No, no. Come on. Listen.
Em Schulz: This is the grossest animal.
Christine Schiefer: These poor things are being hunted.
Em Schulz: Ew, someone's holding it. Ew. Gross. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em.
Em Schulz: We've really derailed already. Okay. He finds moles. Great. Okay. Next. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Listen, he's, he's a mole catcher. Okay. Which apparently was an important job at the time. However, it was like a very low-class job. Like it was something, uh, that did not earn a lot of money. So even though it was necessary, it wasn't like a high-falutin job. So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: His family unfortunately was, you know, lived a, let's just say lived an extremely humble life.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: However, Maria was a very beautiful young woman.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: And sometimes that just seems to, uh, matter more than the money part.
Em Schulz: Every time. Actually, I don't know if you knew that but...
Christine Schiefer: It, it seems, it seems.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, despite her family's financial status, she grew up surrounded by local boys trying to win her affection. When she was 17, she fell for a man named Thomas Corder, but his family was pretty wealthy. And so both of them knew that this match would not be approved of by his parents. Tale as old as time.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The mole catcher's daughter.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: A new German fairytale.
Em Schulz: I'm still, I'm still trying to process like that, that its nose can look like that and that it does, as far as I know, does not have eyes. I'm just a, I'd never...
Christine Schiefer: It does have eyes, they're just underdeveloped 'cause it's underground. They live underground. They burrow in little mole holes.
Em Schulz: I've just never seen.
Christine Schiefer: They have tunnels.
Em Schulz: An anim... I've just never seen an animal that didn't have like, very distinct eyes before. It was just, it was a shock. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm glad. I hope you recover swiftly.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: You probably won't, but I hope you do.
Em Schulz: Oi.
Christine Schiefer: So she and Thomas actually courted in secret for four years, which in a small town I think is a long time to keep that under wraps.
Em Schulz: That's impressive.
Christine Schiefer: I thought so too. And that kind of all went out the window when Mary fell pregnant with Thomas's baby. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Mmmh, you can't hide that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, precisely. So once the baby was born, of course they could no longer hide their relationship. But what's even more tragic is that only weeks into being alive, this baby passed away.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And this loss puts such a strain on Maria and Thomas in addition to everybody kind of finding out about this relationship and putting that pressure on them that they parted ways and they couldn't make their relationship last. So when she was about 22, Maria started seeing an even wealthier man named Peter Matthews. And same old, same old. At 23, Maria gets pregnant with this man's baby.
Em Schulz: Damn. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And she gives birth to a son whom they named Thomas Henry, who fortunately survives. So at least...
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know, that has a good ending to it. However, Peter refused to marry Maria or claim his son. Uh, again, he came from a pretty wealthy family. He didn't want to get involved, even though, fuck you, you've been involved long enough.
Em Schulz: Yeah. What a douche.
Christine Schiefer: This is your fucking problem to deal with.
Em Schulz: Ugh, go hunt a mole or something.
Christine Schiefer: No. That's her dad's job. He's gonna put him out of business. [laughter] So he did, however, volunteer child support, uh, willingly. So I'm at least glad that she was provided for, um.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he was very reliable with it and paid her well. So you know what? At least he left and he made sure to support them on his way out. So there's that at least.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Maria raised Thomas Henry, uh, among family. So her father, Thomas Marten, her sister Anne Marten and her stepmother. Now this is a little confusing 'cause her stepmother's name is Mrs. Anne Marten. So basically her dad remarried and the woman he remarried had the same name as one of his daughters. So there's Anne, the daughter, and then Mrs. Anne Marten, who's the stepmother.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: They all were very close. They all deeply loved Mary and her son, regardless of the circumstances. And Maria also had a half-brother, who was her dad and stepmom's, uh, son.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So this was her, her step, her half-brother. So Maria was admired for being loving and loyal to her family. Uh, her father held her very dear. Uh, she was a great writer. She was just pleasant to be around. She was just, uh, a, a delightful person. And so pretty quickly, uh, you know, that plus her good looks, I suppose. Uh, Maria started seeing another man, and this guy's name was William Corder. And if that last name sounds familiar, it's because he was the younger brother of that first guy. She was dating, Thomas Corder.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay. Okay. I was wondering if they were, if the, how small is the town?
Christine Schiefer: Very small. [laughter] Very small [laughter] So she starts dating his little brother and they're once again dating in secret and nobody knows.
Em Schulz: A drama, also like...
Christine Schiefer: Drama.
Em Schulz: Like that wasn't like a, a one night stand kind of thing. Like she was with his brother for like four years in hiding.
Christine Schiefer: Four years and lost a baby with him. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's an intimate relationship.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like gave birth to a child. And if you're doing it in secret, like you're not just doing it for like social reasons, like you're really in love with this person.
Em Schulz: Is she, is she also in secret with this guy?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: 'cause I'd be pissed if I were the first brother. Oh, okay. They're, they're both in secret. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yep. Secret secret. And so they are once again dating in secret because he comes from that same family, the wealthy family, who would not approve of this relationship. So of course now there's almost this double fear of the family finding out like not only does the family not approve, but also the brother, like you said, would probably be pissed if he found out that his younger brother's now with this woman. So they are like really keeping this under wraps. And Maria once again said, "Fine, fine. We'll keep this a secret." They frequently met in a barn that the Corder family owned on their property, and it was locally called the Red Barn.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Guess what happened next?
Em Schulz: She got pregnant.
Christine Schiefer: She got pregnant, and you know, this is time before birth control pills. So if you're dating for years, it's gonna happen. You know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's not a surprise. So, Maria got pregnant and William swore he would claim their relationship and marry her when the baby was born. Sadly, this baby died also a few weeks after birth.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: And, it's just really, really horrible. And William still wouldn't go public about their relationship.
Em Schulz: Why is everyone so ashamed of her? Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Because she's a daughter of a mole catcher. It's really sad.
Em Schulz: Well, I'd be...
Christine Schiefer: You know... That pisses me off. It's like, "Oh, you're beautiful and I wanna have sex with you, but like, nobody can know and I don't want."
Em Schulz: Yeah, like you, she wasn't gross when you wanted to get naked with her.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. It's, it's, it's very telling and like very transparent what's going on here.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's just, it's sad. So, you know, she really was hoping that this was the time that things actually turned around, but he still won't acknowledge his relationship with her publicly, won't acknowledge the baby, and they get into this big disagreement about burying the child because she wants to give it a proper burial and he doesn't want to because he is worried it'll draw attention to their relationship. And he's like, "Nope, we gotta keep this under wraps." And so what he does is he goes and he takes the baby and buries it in a random field.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. That's personal. Great.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And this really upsets her for obvious reasons, but you know, he says, "We just don't want it out yet. Um, but I insist on marrying you still. I will take care of you." And so...
Em Schulz: Bullshit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right. I know.
Em Schulz: Bullshit.
Christine Schiefer: It's like at this point, come on, the writing's on the wall. You mofo.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he tells Maria's sister Anne, that Maria would want for nothing and he would care for her. And it's like, you know what? Screw that.
Em Schulz: All she wants is a goddamn diamond ring. Just give it to her.
Christine Schiefer: I don't even think she wants that. You know, I think...
Em Schulz: She wants commitment.
Christine Schiefer: She just wants you to not be in a barn with her only. Like, take her to diner.
Em Schulz: She wants you to be proud of her. She wants you to say...
Christine Schiefer: Something.
Em Schulz: [trumpet noise vocalization] This is...
Christine Schiefer: Acknowledge that she is your partner. Anything. It's, yeah, it's really sad. But, so of course he's going on all this is blowing smoke up everyone's ass basically saying like, "Oh, don't worry, I'll take care of her." But things got more complicated because on May 18th, of 1827, according to Maria's father, uh, William, the, the partner, the boyfriend showed up at their house frantic, and he had shocking news.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: He said, Mr. Baalham, the local constable had placed a warrant out for Maria's arrest.
Em Schulz: Oh. I already don't believe it. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the charge was having illegitimate children with multiple men, which was technically criminal at the time.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes. And the reason for it being criminal, uh, is because a lot of times churches or local parishes would have to take, take on the upkeep or the care of these children. And so it was considered like putting this burden...
Em Schulz: A burden on society.
Christine Schiefer: On the state and church and society, which is like, okay, but didn't the dude do it too? No. Okay. Just the woman got it.
Em Schulz: Oh are you telling me there's something called the patriarchy? That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Hang on.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so tired of your extremist beliefs. Okay?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Tone it down.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Stop talking to me like that, Dad. Like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So this is what he shows up. He goes, there's this charge out for her arrest. We gotta go. And so Anne, her sister said Maria cried all day in despair, but William said, you know what, "I'm gonna marry Maria and that way she will be protected because if she's married, she won't be, you know, illegitimately raising these children."
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: So Maria got disguised as a man, uh, in men's trousers, a waistcoat and a hat, and was kind of like bustled out of her home and taken away, because William was like, "I'll, I'll hide her until we get married."
Em Schulz: Why couldn't you just get married like right now? I don't understand.
Christine Schiefer: So he had to go to a different town. This is the story, to, to marry her because in town there was this warrant out for her arrest. So he's like...
Em Schulz: Okay. So they had like crossed lines.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Go get married somewhere, come back with a marriage certificate and be like, "Loophole," you know?
Em Schulz: Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it.
1:30:45.1Christine Schiefer: So William told Anne he had Maria's clothes in a bag. Uh, so she could change later. Once they got past the constable, they would go to Ipswich and be married the following day. And then Maria would come home a quote, "honorable woman" and not be accused of this quote unquote, "crime". So, they left. But a week later, uh, Mrs. Anne Marten, uh, Maria's stepmother ran into William out and about without Maria.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she thought, "That's strange. Um, where is she?" And he told her, "Well, we couldn't get married right away. There was an issue with the license. Uh, so I sent it to London to get it corrected, but this might take several weeks to process. And so in the meantime, Maria is staying in Yarmouth on the Isle of Wight with the sister of one of my school friends named Ms. Rowland, which like, I, we've said it before, but...
Em Schulz: Lot of details.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Too many details. Like, people who make up elaborate lies like to just pepper in unnecessary details.
Em Schulz: At this point, I don't even believe that there was ever a warrant out for her arrest. I think he was like, "Let me get you out of town so I can kill you, and then, uh, I can finally be done with you being a burden on me."
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Em, you really are onto something here. Okay. I'm just gonna say that.
Em Schulz: Is the... Well, I, I didn't mean to like...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: I was expecting you to say no, there really was a warrant out for her arrest and all this.
Christine Schiefer: There wasn't.
Em Schulz: Okay, well.
Christine Schiefer: You already really nailed it on that, friend.
Em Schulz: Shit. I didn't mean to spoil it.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, it's not, it's not. I mean, I think everybody was a little wary about that. So you're exactly right.
Em Schulz: I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: There was no fucking warrant out.
Em Schulz: I feel like there... I mean, it just sounds like shitty man after shitty man after shitty man. And like usually where there's shitty men, there's not a lot of thought. [laughter] There's not a lot of critical thinking.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I feel like the murder was not hard to concoct or figure out from here.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. No, I mean, it, it was like, "What's the easiest way to handle this?"
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Here we go.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: And that, I mean, you're exactly right. So he says, you know, "Once the license comes back, we'll get married right away." And William came and went from Polstead for weeks, and every time he left town, he would tell her family, "Oh, I'm visiting Maria in Yarmouth. Don't worry. She's doing great. She's thriving." And so Mrs. Anne, Maria's stepmother saw William sometimes two or three times a day and was always like, "Hey, how's Maria? Where is she?" And he always said Maria was just happy and doing well and loving life. But the Martens were like, "Well, we haven't heard from her." And like I said earlier, she was a prolific writer. She was you know, she was known to to write regularly.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, it's really weird that she wouldn't just write us a letter to say hi. You know, it's been weeks.
Em Schulz: Or like pass a note to you for us.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes. Anything. That's a great point. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. Or just like write a note to send back. So, you know, Maria was not the type to cut contact completely with her family, um, especially 'cause she had a three-year-old son at home too.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, she had to leave and it was really hard for her to leave her three-year-old at home to begin with. So you'd think she'd be trying everything in her power to reach out.
Em Schulz: Yeah, definitely.
Christine Schiefer: So, Thomas Marten, Maria's dad, uh, also saw William in town often, by the way, bold to just be showing your face around all the time. You know, it's like.
Em Schulz: Like if just get out of town, just go away. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Just fuck off if you're gonna pull this stunt.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, if I were to murder somebody, you would never see me again. I would...
Christine Schiefer: Hey you see him at breakfast the next day? Like, seriously pisses me off.
Em Schulz: Like I don't, I don't, I maybe I just know myself well enough in my level of anxiety. I could not fake...
Christine Schiefer: Show your face.
Em Schulz: Having not murdered somebody. Like I couldn't just go to your house the next day and act like I didn't murder somebody. It would be...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Written all over me. I would literally never be able to come back if I had a chance of getting away with it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. I feel like the best bet is to just like piece out, especially back in those days because it's like.
Em Schulz: It was so easy.
Christine Schiefer: It was hard to track people.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like it could have been so... Think of all the murderers that aren't even on anybody's radar.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They just got away with it all the time because all you had to do was just not come back.
Christine Schiefer: This idiot is like brazen. You literally change your name and nobody can track you. And you know, I mean, we've seen it a million times.
Em Schulz: And not even really change your name. Just say it. You have a different name. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly. Not even, right. [chuckle] Not technically Change it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So this guy is fucking brazen. He keeps showing up, his, her family is seeing him every day and is like, "Where is she?" And of course they're getting more and more suspicious. And every time, uh, her dad Thomas asks this guy like, "Where the hell is my daughter?" William would make these vague excuses. Uh, for one example, he told her dad that, "Oh, Maria just has a really sore hand so she can't write right now."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, that's the world's worst excuse. Okay.
Em Schulz: I like how that by the way, like you could not use that fucking excuse in today's world of why you're not getting back to somebody.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. Her hand hurts.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: My hand is a little crampy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work these days. So one day, Mrs. Anne Marten's son, um, so this is the half brother of Maria and he's 10 years old. He tells his mother Maria's stepmom, you know, I saw William leaving the red barn with a pickaxe a few weeks ago.
Em Schulz: [Gasp] Well, that'll do it.
Christine Schiefer: And he just felt weird enough about it that he told his mother and she kind of, it stuck with her. Right. So Mrs. Marten went and talked to William about it and said, "Hey, my son saw you leaving with this pickaxe a few months ago, like, what was going on at the barn?" And he said, "Oh, oh, he must have confused me with someone else." And she was like, "Well, he's 10. Like, he's... "
Em Schulz: Yeah, he's not an idiot.
Christine Schiefer: He's not an idiot. He can recognize people.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He knows it was you. It's your barn. So like, you know, it's just a strange thing to lie about. But, so she went back to her son who insisted. No, it was William. You know, I, uh, I can reliably recognize him. And so it was just a weird thing for him to lie about, especially 'cause like I said, his family owned this barn. Then when they kind of pushed him on it and the son was like, "No, it was you. I saw." William said, "Well, I was in the red barn, but I was just taking Maria there because she had to change out of her like man disguise and back into her normal clothes. And they were like, "So you were there, but then why did you leave alone with a pickaxe?" Um just...
Em Schulz: Yeah. And why are you, why did you say that our son must... Why were you trying to gaslight me on my kid not seeing you?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly. Like the second your story starts shifting, like red flags.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in the meantime, one of William's closest friends, a man named George Gardner asked one day, "Hey, whatever came of that girl Maria that you're dating." [laughter] Awkward.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right?
Christine Schiefer: And William, uh, ever the gentleman responded, "Uh, she's all right. I suppose, she's in the keeping of Mr. Matthews." Who is, uh, who was her ex, the ex who she father... Who fathered her baby, her son.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he just kind of was like, "Meh, who cares? Who knows?" She's back with her, with her old man.
Em Schulz: So he's not even trying to keep the same alibi in the same town.
Christine Schiefer: No. No. Literally not even.
Em Schulz: Like, what did I tell you.
Christine Schiefer: That's a great point.
Em Schulz: Not a, not a single fucking thought to this plan.
Christine Schiefer: Not a thought. Not a fucking thought. And so basically the friend's like, oh, okay, so he's... But, and by the way, the other guy, the father of her child is still in town too. So like, he's gonna be like, "No, she's not with me." You know, it's just so, it's just stupid. It's so stupid.
Em Schulz: God, I, it's just, I know he's not gonna get away with it, which makes me happy. But if for some reason this were a cold case, I'd scream.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's when we really wanna just rip all our hair out. Yeah. No, thankfully it does have not a happy ending, but like a conclusion, so to speak.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, months go by with no word from Maria. And I really don't know what William thought would happen like that they were just gonna forget she existed? Her family, like, I, I don't know what he thought would happen, but he just kept hanging around and she just never showed up. And eventually when they start pestering him more and more, he just leaves town for good. He's like, actually I'm moving, which is I... Finally, you know, at least he's finally getting a head on his shoulders.
Em Schulz: I was like get the hint.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Get the hint. So he leaves town for good and he, he tells her family, "The marriage license finally arrived. I'm gonna go off to Yarmouth to fetch Maria, and we will bring her back to visit within the month." Well, obviously they never came back.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Maria still didn't write, and Maria's dad got three final letters from William himself, but that was it. So one day in March, Mrs. Marten finally got the courage to tell her husband something that had been bothering her.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: She said to him, "I think, were I in your place, I would go and examine the red barn." And her husband's like, "Why?" And she admits, "I have been having these nightmares about Maria."
Em Schulz: Oh gosh.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently they started before Christmas, so this is March. And she said she's been having these dreams since right around Christmas time that Maria is buried in the red barn.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: And the thing about it was, in town she was actually known, Mrs. Anne, the stepmother was known for having prophetic dreams. And weirdly enough, this was something that, well, I guess it wasn't weird at all because think about how people reacted to witchcraft only, you know, 200 years earlier.
Em Schulz: Yeah, fair enough.
Christine Schiefer: But she had really tried to keep this hidden. And her husband was like, "Oh, that's all poppycock." Like, you know, I don't know if he said that word, but I'd like to think he did.
Em Schulz: I didn't know anyone on earth ever said that word until this moment.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my dad does. So that's where I got it from, I guess.
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, but so she...
Em Schulz: So interesting. Okay. So I, because right off the bat, my thought is, which maybe she has an issue with gore or something, but I feel like if you had a vision that close to home, like that physically close to home and that emotionally close to home, I would just like maybe wanna investigate myself before like, saying something like that to her dad. And like, I don't know, that's a personal thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But, but the other thing that is much more oppressing is like, how fucking stupid can this man be? Not the dad, the, this fucking William guy.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: 'Cause like he, so he's been going back to the crime scene multiple times.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And like he also said they left town. He couldn't have literally brought her out of town. So there was no evidence of this.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like...
Christine Schiefer: Like what was the point of this disguise and all this nonsense.
Em Schulz: Yeah. What was the ruse for? Like, you could have just like, I don't understand why you couldn't have at least said, "There's a warrant out. Let's go get married," bring her to a town while she's alive. So she's totally like, like falling for the bit and then get her away from everybody and kill her. And there's just never proof. Like how do you... I can't imagine a crime with less thought put into it. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's really stupid. And it's like...
Em Schulz: And if...
Christine Schiefer: Of course I'm glad it's stupid because at least it means we got to the bottom of it. But like, it's almost insulting how brazen...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And dumb he's being because it's like...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, you really thought nobody would fucking figure this out.
Em Schulz: That's what I, I was about to say. It feels insulting.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Because like, like she wasn't... One of the reasons we hated him off the bat is because she like, had done nothing wrong and was like, for some reason not worth his fucking time...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: To like, commit in any way or profess public adoration for.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But like, even in death, she's not even worth thinking about for a, a death plan, which I know is like such a fucked up thing to say, but like, never, never in a time when she's been a part of your life have you spent five seconds even considering anything. Like it's, I don't know. It's all fucked up.
Christine Schiefer: And then you're telling stories about her. You're not even like committing quote unquote, "to the bit" afterward you're making shit up and just saying, "Oh, she's, I don't care. She's somewhere else." Like, even if...
Em Schulz: It's very much the narcissist.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: The arrogant confidence cockiness that you can get away with it thing.
Christine Schiefer: It's exactly that. And it's just insulting and upsetting.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she's having these dreams and she, like I said, she's scared to tell her husband because he doesn't believe in any of this. He doesn't like her talking about all of it because again, this carried a big stigma...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To be like foreseeing the future, you know? And it just was something he was like, "Let's keep that on the DL. I don't believe in it, and you need to not talk about it." And so...
Em Schulz: Yeah shut up.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, shut up.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And she wasn't fond of it either, but she kept having these dreams and they happened so often that she finally was like, "I have to tell him." So she tells her husband, let me quote it here. "I have very frequently dreamed about Maria, and twice before Christmas, I dreamed that Maria was murdered and buried in the red barn."
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: And she, these dreams were so sort of realistic or so, uh, what's the word? So convincing that she actually... She had never been in the barn before, but she said she had seen the inside of it and knew where inside the barn where this murder had taken place.
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: So she was almost seeing the inside of it in her dreams.
Em Schulz: Ugh. It almost makes me wonder if that's also like an astral projection thing.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Where when you're like, your body is... One's soul is...
Christine Schiefer: Like, is it a dream or are you really visiting there one.
Em Schulz: One's soul's finding another or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. So she tells her husband and her husband's like, "You know what, fine, I'll go check out the red barn." And I, I also think the reason why she didn't go check it out herself is A, she's a woman and it's like back in the 1820s, you're probably not just gonna go on someone else's property and start like looking through there. Do you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Oh, was it not, it wasn't her barn?
Christine Schiefer: No, no. It was, uh, William's family's barn.
Em Schulz: Oh. This whole time I thought he killed her on her own parents' property.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no, no.
Em Schulz: And I was like, "You're so fucking stupid."
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. Her, uh, his barn. And so that's why...
Em Schulz: Okay. That makes so much more sense. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She didn't wanna trespass and, you know, look herself, it's probably dangerous.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So finally her husband was like, "Okay, you know what, maybe you're right. Let me go check out the barn." So at first, Mr. Marten was like, "I don't know, this sounds a little too superstitious for me. It's just a dream." But once Mrs. Marten had one more nightmare and was like, "I can't handle this anymore, I insist you go check it out." He was like, "Fine, I'll go." So he went to the red barn and he took a man named Bowtell and they cleaned up the floor for a better view of the dirt. And they noticed one spot that looked a little bit looser than the other floorboards.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they started pushing dirt aside. And this spot gave way easily, like it had just, it had never been like tamped down properly.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It was only 18 inches deep. And he stuck his mole-digging device into it.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And he pulled out something that seemed to be part of a human body.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: And so, you know, of course they dig down and they find a human body wrapped in a heavy sack. So in some spots the sack had started decomposing with the body and really all they could see was this green silk handkerchief. So Mr. Marten rushed home and asked his wife probably with like dread in his heart.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What handkerchief was Maria wearing the day she left home? And she says, "Oh, it was a green silk handkerchief."
Em Schulz: [sucks teeth] Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And that's when he knew he had discovered his daughter's body. So the coroner arrived quickly, uh, pretty immediately declared it a homicide. And a jury was summoned to view the body before burial to get a total glimpse of what was going on. And although this was the early 1800s before modern forensics, obviously, uh, the coroner was able to determine that Maria was likely strangled with the green handkerchief she was wearing.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: But they think she was killed by a bullet shot to the head with a pistol.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: And she had been stabbed several times with a sword.
Em Schulz: Wow. He fucking really, with a sword? He really sure she was...
Christine Schiefer: With a fucking sword.
Em Schulz: He wanted to know for sure she was not gonna survive.
Christine Schiefer: It's horrible.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Horrible. So Maria's sister Anne Marten confirmed the body's identity. She was able to recognize Maria's hair and her missing tooth, uh, on the body, and also her earrings, clothes and a comb she had on her. The Martens were brought in to make statements and Anne said she had not seen Maria since May 18th the previous year when William Corder came to the house to take her away with him. And Anne remembered that he had a gun with him that day because he told her not to mess with it because it was loaded.
Em Schulz: Oh wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Good, good sign. So as the pieces came together, the constable said he had never once had a warrant out for Maria's arrest...
Em Schulz: Ding ding ding.
Christine Schiefer: And he certainly didn't tell William there was one. So there you go. Already a big fat lie. Maria was already raising one child, uh, with her family and the child was 10 years old at this point, and she grew up in this town. So despite like any scandals that might have occurred, or like the technical criminal behavior, uh, she was really well-liked. Like the constable was not after her. It, it was all made up. It was all fake. So local authorities were quickly convinced obviously that William was responsible for the murder. So April 23rd, of 1828, which was almost a year since Maria's disappearance, a man named Constable Ayres traveled to London to arrest William. Now I have a quick fun fact for you here, which is that Constable Ayres who went to arrest William was assisted in this kind of mission by a man named James Lee. James Lee was an officer of the London Police, who later led the investigation into Spring-heeled Jack.
Em Schulz: Shut up.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: It's all connected.
Christine Schiefer: It's all connected. So Constable Ayres had actually gotten information on where William was from his own brother-in-law, George Gardner, remember the best friend, uh, who was like, "Hey, whatever what ever happened to Maria?"
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Well that guy is the constable's brother-in-law. So he is like, "Oh, I know where he is."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, again, how did William not think, "Oh, the constable's brother-in-law is getting... "
Christine Schiefer: Literally.
Em Schulz: He's starting to wonder like he's getting curious and sniffing around.
Christine Schiefer: And I've just lied to his face. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And you, you know, you, I don't even, I feel like I don't need to see a picture of this William guy to know exactly what he looked like.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you know, that he somehow managed to be 100% purely fucking shocked, gobsmacked when the Constable was like, "No, there's no warrant out." And...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And he found a way to just truly be flabbergasted that his plan...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, he tried everything.
Em Schulz: Didn't work.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He's like, "It's it what I'm get... How, I didn't see this coming. That people were trying to find out."
Christine Schiefer: You are 100% onto it because I'm gonna tell you all the ways which he tried to explain what happened.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. I love this fucking story by the way.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Christine, well done.
Christine Schiefer: Like 100% like you are, you're really getting in the care... The mindset of this fucking guy.
Em Schulz: It's not hard when the killer is so stupid, so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. It's embarrassing, honestly. So yeah, he gets from his brother-in-law, George, uh, William's best friend is like, "Oh, I know where he is staying in London." So he gets the address and this constable goes and tracks down William.
Em Schulz: Of course he gave someone his address.
Christine Schiefer: It gets weird. What?
Em Schulz: Of course he gave someone his direct address.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Exactly. George. The one that fucking is related to the Constable.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Dummy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So the constable goes to the address and um, guess who's shocked to see him?
Em Schulz: William.
Christine Schiefer: William and his wife.
Em Schulz: [Gasp] Oh, it, the plot thickens.
Christine Schiefer: Ahhh!
Em Schulz: I just, I gotta tell you. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So his wife Mary, a little too close to home, in my opinion...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Is like, "Wait, what?" And so, you know, turns out he had gotten married already within the year of murdering Maria. And he was married to a woman named Mary Moore, who is the daughter of a successful jeweler. And the two of them were already running a girl's boarding school together.
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: And they, they lived there like they were. Yeah. Which is also very ew in its own way.
Em Schulz: I don't want him anywhere near children.
Christine Schiefer: No. Or young women. Ugh, no.
Em Schulz: Oh no.
Christine Schiefer: So I have another fun fact here. I'm gonna tell you how they met. Turns out William had moved, when he moved outta town, you know, like finally he just peaced out. He had placed a lonely hearts advertisement in The Times and it basically requested, uh, women who had some means like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Who had money, who came from money.
Em Schulz: So he wanted, he literally said, I need a rich girl.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's how we're doing this.
Christine Schiefer: And guess what? He received more than 100 replies. Uh, from The Times.
Em Schulz: [Gasp] Weird. I would've thought all of them would've been like, "Fuck you."
Christine Schiefer: Nope. They were like, "Sounds good to me 'cause he comes from money too. So it's like a good match," you know?
Em Schulz: I guess so. And maybe they were like 21-year-old spinsters. They were desperate. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God forbid, God forbid.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: According to a book about this case by Judith Flanders, he had also placed advertisements in the Morning Herald and The Sunday Times, which received 93 replies in total. But he never even picked those up. He's like, "Eh, these 100 will do I'll sort through these."
Em Schulz: Can you imagine having access to 200 eligible women who all want you without even looking at you?
Christine Schiefer: They're just like, "I'm in." Yeah. No picture. Nothing.
Em Schulz: They had no idea what a dummy they were going on a date with.
Christine Schiefer: I guess. I guess not. Um, and they actually ended up publishing all of these letters.
Em Schulz: Oh! I need all of them.
Christine Schiefer: I know! In, in a book the following year. Okay. So here it's by anonymous, but here's the name of this book that contained these letters. 1828 by Anon, "An accurate account of the trial of William Corder for the murder of Maria Marten of Polstead Suffolk, to which are added and explanatory preface. And 53 of the letters sent by various ladies in answer to Corder's matrimonial advertisement."
Em Schulz: That was not long enough.
Christine Schiefer: Catchy title.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um. Also, I'm hoping you read that out of your like Amazon cart, because you're buying me one for my birthday.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just so we're clear.
Christine Schiefer: I really gotta get my hands on a copy.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I gotta know.
Christine Schiefer: Imagine all the letters trying to win him over just from that lonely hearts advertisement. I mean it's wild.
Em Schulz: All the the lucky women who didn't make it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. True.
Em Schulz: See that's what happens. If you go on a date, folks on Tinder or Bumble or whatever and, and you set something up and then it ends up just not panning out. You never meet them. They could have been a murderer.
Christine Schiefer: Dodged a bullet. You dodged a bullet. Just, just...
Em Schulz: Dodged a bullet.
Christine Schiefer: Just tell yourself, you know, even if you don't know, just tell yourself.
Em Schulz: Like even if they're not a murderer, they could have been this stupid. So...
Christine Schiefer: Could have been a fucking dummy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Christine Schiefer: So these are published the following year, which I just think is a delight 'cause sometimes, you know, nothing really was good back then, but the way that they handled the media sometimes gives me a good laugh.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like, they would just publish this shit and I was like, you know what? I gotta hand it to them. They, they at least knew how to entertain, you know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They're like, we got nothing. We don't have electricity, we don't have TV.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You know, but we do have...
Christine Schiefer: Women can't vote. But you know what, we got a good story for you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The good old alphabet. And we know how to arrange it in some juicy, juicy strings of sentences.
Christine Schiefer: We use our alphabet for entertainment purposes. So good for you. So when police tell William he is suspected of murdering Maria Marten, he said, get this Em, you're gonna just die. He said, and I quote, "I never knew any such person even by name."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: [laughing] Shut the fuck up.
Christine Schiefer: And the guy who's arresting him is the Constable that he knows from his hometown. Like they know each other. He's best friends with this guy's brother-in-law.
Em Schulz: It's like how does... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's literally the dumbest thing that's ever happened.
Em Schulz: Like how does he look them in the eyes?
Christine Schiefer: It's amazing.
Em Schulz: Okay, imagine you are him. I'm the constable. And you just said, "I don't know this woman that I've obviously discussed with you before." Like, the eye roll. My eyes would fall into my head.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I can't imagine, I can't imagine the groan that came outta the constable being like, "That's the game we're playing? Okay."
Christine Schiefer: Legitimately. And I wonder what you would say, because what the Constable said was, "Hmm, why don't you think carefully?" Which I love.
Em Schulz: I would've laughed in his face. That's such a classy line. "Why don't you think more on this?" Or whatever, what did he say?
Christine Schiefer: I just love, like "Why don't you think carefully?" 'cause it's sort of like, "You're treading on thin ice here, pal. And we both know how stupid you're being. So why don't we just take one more shot at this? Try again."
Em Schulz: It has to be embarrassing. Can you imagine?
Christine Schiefer: It is, I'm embarrassed so I hope he's embarrassed.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine you calling me out on like, "Hey, where's Allison?" And me looking you in the eyes and being like, "Who's Allison?" You would have...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yes, it's the same fucking thing. It's like as if...
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Did you have a head injury? Like what's... "
Christine Schiefer: That's, I was gonna say, it's almost like you have amnesia all of a sudden. There's no other explanation.
Em Schulz: Really.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, "Try again." Basically [laughter], which is what Em would say, I think.
Em Schulz: I love the try again game.
Christine Schiefer: And he continued to insist he had never met anyone named Maria Marten. Which, I mean, obviously, I don't even need to say this, but it was such a stupid lie because they grew up together in the same tiny town. His own brother publicly had a baby with her. So even if people didn't know about their relationship, he obviously knew who she was. So, like, dumb. Okay? And so he's arrested and on the way back to Polstead police, said they were shocked by how casual William was about Maria's death, as if he didn't care at all. Which is not surprising to me. They apparently...
Em Schulz: It's... Keep going.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're gonna like this next part.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They had to stop for the night to stay at an inn. And so one of the Constables handcuffed himself to William to make sure he didn't run away and they had to sleep like that.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine having to sleep handcuffed to a murderer?
Christine Schiefer: No. No!
Em Schulz: That's the bravest Constable.
Christine Schiefer: That's above my fucking payroll.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Not even a little bit. I'd be like, "You're handcuffed to the wall."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I was gonna say handcuff him to a fucking radiator.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well I guess you wanna make sure you wake up if something happens. But also, where's the... I would handcuff both of his hands at the very least, 'cause what if he tries to strangle me? No thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say and he could just turn around and strangle you. Well, anyway, so he got handcuffed to this guy. I guess nothing of note happened. That night, William actually wrote a letter to his mom to give her a heads up about the charges. Like, "Hey mom, quick side note."
Em Schulz: "Hey girl."
Christine Schiefer: "Hey girl, some things are about to go down." [laughter] He also asked her to please host his wife in her home and be kind to his wife and her family on his behalf, which makes me sick because he treated Maria like such shit. And now that he's married to a woman of means, he's like, "Please take her in and take good care of her." And it's like, "You asshole."
Em Schulz: I hope we get an epilogue of where the woman ended up, where his wife ended up.
Christine Schiefer: Seriously, really pisses me off. So he apologized to his mother in this letter for the shame he was bringing to their family. He told the Constables that in the last two years, one of his brothers had drowned and the other two had died of consumption. And he was actually the mother's only surviving son, and now she was basically gonna lose her last remaining son, which is horrifying. And this, to be honest, seemed to be the only thing he felt guilty about, which is backwards, but at least he felt guilty about something, I guess. The next day several magistrates visited William at the Inn along with the clergyman who encouraged him to confess to his crimes and pray for forgiveness. William said he did commit great sins, but this was not one of them.
Em Schulz: I would like him to list what he thinks a great sin is that he's committed.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, why don't you round up the rest then, just for our understanding.
Em Schulz: I bet he'd be like, "I don't know what a sin is." And I'd be like, "Oh my God."
Christine Schiefer: "I've never met a sin by name in my life." Okay, sir, [laughter] okay. Then William's brother-in-law, Mr. Moore, so this is Mary Moore's brother, the jeweler's daughter's brother. Does that make sense? The one he married in London who had no idea about his past.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: The lonely hearts winner, loser. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Depending on how you look at it.
Em Schulz: Unfortunately definitely the loser.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, unfortunately. So her brother showed up on behalf of Mary, his sister, William's wife. And he said to William, "How could you send letters that you were living happily with Maria Marten, when at the same time you were living with my sister whom you had married?" And William said, "I shall say nothing about it."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So that was the end of that. Once they got back to Polstead and William went on trial, he actually faced nine different charges.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is because the coroner couldn't confirm Maria's cause of death. So they were charging him with every possibility, including shooting, stabbing, strangulation and even burying her alive, just to throw one more on top of the list.
Em Schulz: Good, good.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, yeah, yeah. He was also being charged for forgery over cashing a fraudulent check. And I will say, there was another issue that came up, um, in I think one or two of the sources I read, that this asshole, before Maria had even died, and by died, I mean murdered by him. He had actually, they'd gotten into an argument because he had cashed a check that belonged to her. It was a five-pound note, which in today's money is like $700. And it had come as child support from the other guy, Matthew... Matthews or whatever his name was.
Em Schulz: Mmm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He had sent it to support her son and his son. And this motherfucker William just went and took it.
Em Schulz: So he's been also like taking, he's also been... I don't know what the right word is. Is it embezzling?
Christine Schiefer: Like stealing from her? Yeah. So I don't know if that was the specific charge, but he went and just cleaned out her accounts, which is like, she doesn't have much and this is for her child and you're the one who comes from money, but still you're taking the last of what she has to pay for her son's food. It's it's...
Em Schulz: I think I'm becoming numb to how...
Christine Schiefer: I know, to how fucked up he is.
Em Schulz: Obnoxious this guy is.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: 'Cause I'm like... It doesn't even surprise me. I'm like, "of course."
Christine Schiefer: And this of course now is like the least of the problems because he did something so much worse. But it just goes to show what a shitty partner he was to begin with.
Em Schulz: Mmm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, this being a small town, many of William's own neighbors that he grew up with were subpoenaed as witnesses in the trial. There was a woman named Phoebe Stowes, who lived in the cottage right by the red barn. And she said that one day in early May of 1827, although she couldn't confirm the exact date, William showed up to her cottage, beside the barn, and asked to borrow a shovel.
Em Schulz: Okay?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. And she said she only had one, and it was pretty junky, but he said any shovel would work for what he needed it for. So she lent him a shovel and he went on his way. Maria's younger brother was then put on stand, and he repeated his statement about seeing William leaving the barn with a pickaxe. A local man claimed he had been hired by William to sharpen his sword, which in my mind shows some pre-meditation.
Em Schulz: Yeah, you don't forget a word like sword.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Definitely, definately note-worthy.
Christine Schiefer: Noteworthy for sure. And then, of course, there were the letters from William to the Martens claiming Maria was staying with his friend in Yarmouth. But a quick investigation proved that that was obviously a huge lie, and Maria was never there. William's friend, George, who's just been kind of in the middle of all this, testified that William lied about having a relationship with Maria. And then the constable talked about how, "Oh, I arrested him. He said he'd never heard of Maria." So basically they're just piling on to the sky, which he obviously deserves. And so at this point, William has no defense to fall back on. He's cornered. And so his attorney tries to claim that Maria died by suicide.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right. So the attorney claims, "Oh, well, they were having an argument, and so she took the gun from him and shot herself." And everyone...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's the most sound thing I've heard all day.
Christine Schiefer: It, it really, really fills in all the gaps. Right? Especially the part where she got stabbed by a sword. I guess she did that too.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she actually grabbed the sword from him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: And just kept running it into herself.
Christine Schiefer: She ran into the sword, shot herself and strangled herself and buried herself. So, you know.
Em Schulz: And died all of those ways independently too.
Christine Schiefer: At once, yeah, it was pretty impressive right? So that was...
Em Schulz: Then they've... They actually had never met, is what's wild about it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's true. He wasn't even there. He'd never heard of her before. You're, totally right.
Em Schulz: Not a day in his life, not a day in his life.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, that's pretty impressive. You're right. You're 100% percent right. So basically this is their new claim, and of course nobody fucking buys it. Nobody thinks that she really took her own life. And actually William did not seem surprised at all. I think he realized when the jury returned a guilty verdict, he was like, "Okay, I knew this would happen." And he was sentenced to hang the following week. So as you can imagine, the trial itself was a circus. People... Hundreds of people were gathered outside, yelling, singing, dancing. The public had already determined that William was guilty. The judge was not a fan of that. He believed in a fair trial and was worried the jury's opinion would be skewed, but it didn't matter because William was like... He just kind of accepted his sentence. He didn't really try to appeal or anything like that. The day before William's execution, he signed a confession with a new version of what happened. He said, "Oh, well, I'll... Now I'll tell you what really happened." So, buckle up. He said they...
Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They got in an argument in this barn, and when Maria grabbed his arm in anger, he instinctively pulled out his pistol and accidentally shot her.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. Someone's trigger happy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And also, he said he didn't stab her. And I'm like, "Okay, then who stabbed? Then who"
Em Schulz: Yeah. But someone came in and poked her with the sword 40 times to see if she was dead?
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't make any sense. So he's like, "No, I shot her for sure, for sure, for sure. But I didn't stab her even though my sword was really sharp." Like, come on, idiot. [laughter] So I don't know if he's just trying to get into heaven or what, I really don't know, by saying it's an accident, but he does claim this is an accident. And so, the execution goes forward. It's a spectacle, is the... What do you call it, understatement of the century.
Em Schulz: Mmm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Between 7000 and 20,000 people showed up. We don't know the exact number.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Reporters were especially shocked by how many women were there because apparently a hanging was not considered appropriate for women, especially women with wealth and standing.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I actually have a quote about this, which is kind of fun.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, according to one account, "The number of respectable ladies present is at once a convincing proof of the intense curiosity which prevailed in this county to witness every action of Corder. For we are sure that nothing but this could have induced respectable females to have been present to witness a catastrophe so uncongenial with the delicacy of their sex, one lady when gently chided for being present, said that she had a right to witness the end of the man who had inhumanly butchered one of her sex."
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, "Yeah, girl." She's like, "You know what? He murdered one of my kind, so I can be here. Fuck you."
Em Schulz: I, I'm also, okay, so here's the thing. My brain did that thing where I heard flowery words and it started just shutting down.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. I figured maybe that would happen.
Em Schulz: But I know that if that happened to me, that certainly happened to him. And I like that she humbled him that way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She absolutely humbled him, which I love. Basically, they were like, "Oh, this is such a unwomanly event. Why would you come here?" And she's like, "You know what? He killed one of my own, so I can be here." And listen, I don't agree with public hangings. That's the least of what I... [laughter] like, you know, etcetera.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think we know that, that's for sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But in general, I just think that's a lovely retort.
Em Schulz: It's like, it's like, yeah it's a good comeback of like, "Fuck you, he did this. I'm allowed to do it. You know like, "I'm allowed to be here for my kind."
Christine Schiefer: "Why are you yelling at me?" Also, like, why are you chiding this stranger for being there? Like, fuck off. Anyway, it just really pissed me off. So I actually have a picture, I have a couple pictures here. This is a crowd, that had gathered at the hanging, um, which just kind of goes to show how many people. It's a drawing depiction. I'll send it to the group.
Em Schulz: Yep. Oh, wow, that's a lot of people.
Christine Schiefer: It's a big crowd.
Em Schulz: That's hundreds of people.
Christine Schiefer: And again, this is like a really small town. So this was quite...
Em Schulz: People were coming in from all over.
Christine Schiefer: Coming in from all over.
Em Schulz: Which, I can't process the fact that people used to travel to watch someone get executed. That's beyond.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And, like have picnics and shit.
Em Schulz: Ugh, yeah. Well we could get into that forever.
Christine Schiefer: So in his final moments, William addressed the huge crowd and he said, "I am guilty, my sentence is just, I deserve my fate. And may God have mercy on me."
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, let me guess, now he's doing it for Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: For God, of course. Of course. Of course.
Em Schulz: All of a sudden, so he can get into heaven in the last moment.
Christine Schiefer: Well obviously, Em. So I have one more photo here.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like a sketch of the hanging itself. And I just... It's so wild to me that at the top it says, "This print is given gratuitous." So like, "This print is given for free to the purchasers of Weekly Dispatch." So basically if you bought that paper, you got this fun free print, this poster included.
Em Schulz: When I used to get magazine subscriptions, I always wanted the centerfold. It was like a, like a tiger beat poster of Dream Street. But with this magazine, you can get a hand-drawn sketch of someone who was at the execution.
Christine Schiefer: A noose.
Em Schulz: Geez Louise, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and don't worry it also explains at the bottom here, let's see, "The hangman is adjusting the rope around the prisoner's neck while an assistant is supporting the wretched man." Okay. Well, anyway...
Em Schulz: I feel like if you have to caption your drawing, your drawing probably wasn't that good.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great point.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, diss.
Em Schulz: I mean, it was a great drawing, but like I think, I think I'm sensing some insecurity from the artist. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I think we get it. Yeah, I think we get it. So that is the picture. So there were a couple rumors that kind of circulated afterward, and this one is pretty wild, I don't believe it's true, but it's interesting how people's minds work. One of the rumors was about the dreams Anne was having. And Anne the stepmother was actually only a year older than Maria, so her stepmother was only a year older. And one rumor stated that she, the stepmother, and William Corder had been having an affair as well.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And that the two had planned the murder to dispose of Maria, and that her quote unquote, "dreams" were just a way of getting William pinned down for this so she could be free of the blame. But again, this seems like quite a stretch, umm...
Em Schulz: What a stretch. Yeah. It sounds more like, if they were in on it together, she got guilty and, like, used her visions as...
Christine Schiefer: Or that.
Em Schulz: But also honestly, I'm surprised this story ended without all of the men turning on the woman with relatively witchy gifts. That could've so easily been like...
Christine Schiefer: I know. And I can understand, a hundred years earlier, it probably would have gone that way. You know?
Em Schulz: I mean, how easy, like, "Oh, you're only a year different than his daughter, you're jealous of her," or something. I mean that...
Christine Schiefer: She's so beautiful.
Em Schulz: She's so loved around town.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Yeah. No, you're totally right.
Em Schulz: I'm shocked. I'm shocked it didn't go that way.
Christine Schiefer: And that's probably why she spent months not saying anything about her dreams you know. So once this guy was hanged, his body was put on display for a whole day, with the skin of his chest peeled back...
Em Schulz: [Gasp]
Christine Schiefer: So that everyone could see his muscles.
Em Schulz: What? Why?
Christine Schiefer: Because it was the 1820s, I don't know. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: What the fuck is the reason for that?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it gets weirder. So they also...
Em Schulz: Hang on, hang on, sorry. Okay. [laughter] Say it again. Say it again. He got... They, they, they skinned his chest?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. They put him on display with the skin of his chest peeled back to display his inner muscles.
Em Schulz: Okay?
Christine Schiefer: And this was basically just put... Like since he's a criminal, basically they were like, "Well, we can kind of do anything we want." And since the average person wasn't able to see something like this in their everyday life, thousands of people came by to witness this.
Em Schulz: So they turned this into a fucking science class or something?
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes!
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: And they also did a demonstration in front of students at Cambridge, where they attached a battery to his limbs...
Em Schulz: [Gasp]
Christine Schiefer: To demonstrate the contraction of muscles and how you could kind of make a body move even after death, which is so disturbing.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. And now I have one more photo for you here, or one more picture.
Em Schulz: If it's his muscles contracting from a battery, Christine...
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm sorry. I won't, I promise I would not be doing that. So here's just like a little Penny Dreadful of this story. It's just like a little...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's violent.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's kind of disturbing, and this was turned into a whole theater play. Like people... It just had so many different aspects to it. The murder, the supernatural dreams, the execution.
Em Schulz: I mean it's... Definitely could be thrown in as a theater production.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Could... I mean there's drama left and right.
Christine Schiefer: And it was, here's actually, I'm sending you a picture now of an illustration of a man doing a puppet show for children of...
Em Schulz: Okay, that's a lot. Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's called The Murder of Maria Marten in the Red Barn for kids. And at the bottom, interestingly, it says the Peep Show, which, you know, you could just take that and run with it, I guess. So, I have another random fun fact for you, which is that, doctors, they didn't have access to his brain, so they used his skull and did some phrenology on it. You know, where you kind of...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, touch the bumps.
Christine Schiefer: The bumps and all that, which, you know, this is my time to point out that phrenology is a totally bogus science and is... Pffff... rooted in everything bad. So, racism, sexism, eugenics. Basically has been used over the centuries to prove that certain races are superior. And it's all bunk science, obviously none of it's real. So, you know, just so everyone's aware of this.
Em Schulz: Do you what you will with that.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. But so of course they examined his brain, him being a criminal and all, or not his brain, I'm sorry, his skull. And they determined that the parts of his skull that represented secretiveness and destructiveness were more developed, but then the areas that housed good traits like benevolence and kindness were underdeveloped. It's like, "Okay, well I could have told you that from not looking at his skull."
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, I think anyone with, like, I don't know, two ounces of common sense could have said all that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Exactly. Like I don't need his bones to tell me. [laughter] So in the final act of his sentence, William's body was flayed. His skin was tanned and used to bind a book, and...
Em Schulz: What was the book?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, let me tell you, the book...
Em Schulz: Was it the book about his like 93 love letters?
Christine Schiefer: Yes!
Em Schulz: Ohhh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait, no.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I thought you were gonna say it was a book about his crimes. So it was the story of the Red Barn murder and then they bound the story in his own skin.
Em Schulz: That feels like it's its own crime, but...
Christine Schiefer: It is, I mean it to me at least. Socially.
Em Schulz: Who would wanna picked that up? I mean, I, nope, I was gonna say I get it. No, I don't. I...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say like, to hold a book of the person, OF the person? Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: I know that was like kind of a common thing back then. Not a common thing, but, like remember there was one in Boston, a library in Boston that had like books made of skin?
Em Schulz: Books of skin. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It was like kind of a thing, but I don't really, this seems just like kind of showy and weird. And so, uh, yeah, so they basically wrote a book about his crimes and then made the book out of his skin. [laughter] It's like, what the fuck.
Em Schulz: That is... It is crazy. Like if there was like a museum for serial killers, I mean, like, the Zak Bagans' Museum. There's the room that is all about serial killers and there's like Charles Manson's actual like glasses and shit. And it is weird to be so close to that stuff and not in an enjoyable way, by the way.
Christine Schiefer: No. I don't... No.
Em Schulz: It's like very gut-wrenching, and I guess if you're into that kind of stuff to hold a book about a criminal and it's made of the criminal. I guess if that's your thing, but other than that, I can't imagine wanting... It's the same concept of "Would you wear a shirt that a killer wore?"
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's like, "Do I wanna read a book while I'm touching the killer?"
Christine Schiefer: Of his skin? Nah, nah. Nope. Not even a little bit to be honest.
Em Schulz: I'm super good.
Christine Schiefer: I'm super good. Thank you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm super good without that.
Christine Schiefer: So this is the last of it. Basically his widow, Mary Moore, apparently advertised for sale, the glasses he was wearing at the trial. So I guess to make some money off it. I'm not sure.
Em Schulz: Hey like I just said.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, someone's gonna probably buy it. And a tobacco box that featured Maria's face on it, which is like, "Ooh, I don't know about that." And so the book itself and the other remains including his death mask that they had made are actually still on display in Suffolk at the Moyse's Hall Museum. So if you really are interested, you can go see it. And then my last bullet point here, in 2007, a woman who was apparently distantly related to William, though not by blood, requested that these items be taken down and buried in a respectful manner, but a man more closely related to William and by blood said, "Nope, I'd like them to stay in the museum."
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: So in the end, the woman withdrew her request and the display remains today.
Em Schulz: Wow. Huh.
Christine Schiefer: The end. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: What a scandal. What a... Man, you really, that was a good one.
Christine Schiefer: What a roller coaster man.
Em Schulz: You know, when I say good one, I obviously don't mean good one.
Christine Schiefer: Well of course.
Em Schulz: But that was um, definitely one full of banter. That's one that like if I were sitting at a restaurant and I overheard someone telling that story, I'd be like, "Girl, what?!"
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, "Em, are you listening to anything I'm saying?" And you'd be like, "No, 'cause you are not as interesting as other people at that table."
Em Schulz: I'd be like "Christine, shut your mouth, we'll talk later." I was like.
[overlapping conversation]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: There are times... You know you're in good company at a restaurant when you're sitting there and both of you without saying anything mutually agree to shut up because something juicy is happening.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. It's my favourite activity, it's my favorite. Um. I'm just gonna send you a picture of the Red Barn too, while we're at it. But basically, the Red Barn, just like every thing else that seems to have happened in that era, excuse me, was taken apart piece by piece by lookie loos who wanted to come and storm the crime scene. And so people were taking planks of wood and like making souvenirs and just, you know, all that gross stuff. So it basically was picked apart, but here is an illustration of it from back in the day.
Em Schulz: Geez. Wow. Well, Christine, well done.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I'm sorry it was so long. I, I really thought, "Oh, this is gonna be a short one." [laughter]
Em Schulz: It, whenever there's an opportunity to, oh, I had like 45 minutes worth of things to say about that stupid fucking mole with the, so...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I had you at mole and then we were kind of downhill from there, so to speak.
Em Schulz: I stand by what I said. That mole looks like a Pokemon gone wrong. It's, there's something going on.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It does look a little bit like a Pokemon glitch and he kind of forgot half its face or like... Yeah, I can see that.
Em Schulz: He certainly forgot the eyes and the nose. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I see it. All right. You know what, Em?
Em Schulz: Oh, someone who listens probably has a mole and is incredibly offended. I'm sorry, but that really is so...
Christine Schiefer: I'm offended, so, honestly?
Em Schulz: It's a shock to the system when you see an animal without a face. Um.
Christine Schiefer: I'm on your side, oh, please.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, anyone thank, thank you so much for listening and when this comes out we'll be almost 31 and 32.
Christine Schiefer: That's so beautiful.
Em Schulz: Isn't it so wild, we started this at 24 and 25?
Christine Schiefer: Dear Lord. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Not to like totally age us. But uh.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. Can you save that for sad happy hour please? 'cause I'm not ready to discuss it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: All right.
Christine Schiefer: Thanks anyway.
Em Schulz: If you guys are part of our Patreon, you wanna go see us talk more because two and a half hours was not enough for you. You can do that. We're gonna go have an After Chat, so we'll see you there and...
Christine Schiefer: All right, sounds good. Oh, I'll never get used to this.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe when I'm 40. That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.
