E413 The Corpse Color Zoom Filter and the Fun Little Treat Lifestyle

TOPICS: THE LIZARD MAN OF SCAPE ORE SWAMP, JOANNA DENNEHY

Christopher’s original drawing of the Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp

Photo from LyleBlackburn’s Instagram featuring the original Lizard Man t-shirt design

It’s Episode 413 and we deserve an FLT today. This week Em brings us a classic cryptid story from South Carolina, the Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp. A 7-foot tall, 3-toed lizard who apparently is obsessed with attacking cars. Then Christine brings us to England for one of the UK’s most notorious female killers, Joanna Dennehy. And maybe you’ll catch Em on their “rest of the map” tour sometime… and that’s why we drink!

Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode 413. This is And That’s Why We Drink, a podcast where we tell stories about all the scary things in this world. I’m your true crime host, Christine.

Em: And I am the one here to tell you all about my scary, scary cold, Em.

Christine: Yeah, here’s the thing, folks. We’re recording like four days in a row before the holiday break. And, um, for that reason, Em has not escaped the cold. And for that reason, we have not escaped Em talking about Em’s cold.

Em: For everybody–

Christine: So if you’re listening, like bingeing this, and for four episodes in a row you’re like, “Seriously? This cold again?” I’m right there with you, folks. Okay?

Em: I’m right there with you. I’m so– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] You’re on your own planet. Okay? Don’t– You keep dragging us onto your own planet.

Em: Um, I– Yeah, I feel bad for people who’ve been listening–

Christine: Yeah, me too.

Em: –and for a month now, in your ears, it sounds like I’ve had this cold.

Christine: Me too. It sounds like you feel really bad, except that you keep doing it.

Em: Um. I have been– I, I touched up my appearance on my camera this time because–

Christine: I almost did that too!

Em: –because I have no color to me. I look like a corpse, and so, uh, my–

Christine: You look lovely in that filter.

Em: Thank you. I did have to do that.

Christine: Well, I tried it, but then it kept lagging my video, and I was like, “Okay, it’s not worth the weird like rosy cheeks it gives me.”

Em: Mm. Well, if we–

Christine: But if you looked very pallid, then I– I’m thankful that you added a bit of pop.

Em: Well, if we start lagging, now we know why. So I can change it.

Christine: Yeah. Good point.

Em: Anyway. Why do you drink this week, Christine?

Christine: I’m so ready to tell you, okay? Here’s what happened. You see my hair?

Em: It’s beautiful.

Christine: I’ve never worn my hair like this before in my life. I have just a braid. One braid. And I– ’Cause I don’t have enough hair for two braids, you know. It has become thicker and more voluminous over the years, and my bald patch has slowly disappeared. But it still isn’t enough for two braids. Anyway, point being this morning, I turn on the shower. I was like cold. I had to go to therapy. I wanted to stay in bed and snuggle with my cat. But no, I had to go to therapy, so I was like I gotta take a shower. So I did the thing where I turn the shower on. I took all my clothes off. I was like, “Okay, here we go.” And I fucking get in the shower. Leona has messed with the light switches downstairs and has blown the fuse to the water heater.

Em: Beautiful.

Christine: So we’ve got an ice-cold– And it’s like, you know, 30 degrees here or something. So we’ve got an ice-cold shower. I’m thinking, “Never mind.” So I turn it off, and the– By the way, the water heater’s in the basement, and you have to go outside of the home to get there. So I’m not like leaving.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: So I– Forget it. So I’m like, “No–“ So I’m like looking at my fac– my hair, and I’m like, “This is not gonna work.” So I was like, “I’m just gonna braid it.” ’Cause I was like I have to leave in two minutes. So I just–

Em: So you did take an ice bath?

Christine: I did not. I– My hair was so gross though–

Em: Oh, I see.

Christine: –that I had to figure out what to do with it. It was just like st– [unintelligible] stringy on my face.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I was like, “I can’t live like this. And nobody should see me like this.” And so I put on makeup for therapy, which I’ve really never done, and braided my hair. And I walk in, and she goes, “Oh my god, you look great today.” And I was like [laughs], “I didn’t shower.” Usually, my answer is that I did shower. Anyway, today I didn’t ’cause Leona broke the hot water. Um, next I went to therapy, and I’m already like kind of–

Em: Cold and dirty.

Christine: –cold. [laughs] Yes, and, uh, I had like a very– Let’s just say very intense, um, therapy session. So then I leave, and I’m like, “I’m so discombobulated.” And you and I had to record, and I was like, “You know what I’m feeling? I’m feeling a little FLT. And so–“

Em: Ooh!

Christine: I never do this. I never think to do an F– I mean–

Em: That’s wild. I literally live my life on FLTs. When’s my next one?

Christine: But I was analyzing it, and I think the reason is that for most of the time I just do what I want.

Em: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Christine: And I don’t mean that in like a selfish way or anything. I just am like if I want a milkshake, I’ll just like drink a milkshake. Like I don’t know. I just never think of it as like a treat ’cause I’m like my whole life I wanna be treated like a treat. So I’m like, everything’s a treat. And I don’t try to, uh, prohibit myself from things ’cause then I know that they’ll– And I know you don’t either so I– But I just in my head like– If I’m like, “I want McDonald’s,” I’ll just eat McDonald’s. I don’t know. But today, I was like, “I want an FLT,” and it felt like an FLT today. You know what I mean? Like it was different. It wasn’t just like, “I want McDonald’s.” It was like, “I’m gonna just like do this just because and be probably 5 to 10 minutes late to recording.” And so–

Em: What did you get?

Christine: I got a D. Peppy. This might be the first time I’m ever drinking a D. Peppy on cam– or on the podcast. I– That’s probably not true. There’s no way that’s true. Um, but I love me some D. Peppy, and I got some little ranch and some chicken nuggets. Don’t tell anybody ’cause you know–

Em: Do you dip your chicken nuggets in ranch?

Christine: Absolutely.

Em: Hm. Interesting.

Christine: But don’t tell anybody ’cause you know, I’m– Most of the time, I’m a vegetarian. Maybe that’s why it was an FLT ’cause I was like, “You know what? I’m putting this aside for some chicken nuggets.”

Em: That’s fine. I’m–

Christine: I’m sorry, folks, if that hurt you that I did that. It–

Em: I think it’s okay.

Christine: I’m not proud of it, but I let myself just do it and French fries and– Um, yeah. Anyway, life is good. I feel, uh, very d– I feel slightly more re-combobulated, um, but it’s been a weird day, so, uh, and it’s only 1 o’clock. Um.

Em: Yeah. Well, I’m very proud of you for getting an FLT.

Christine: Thank you. I thought of you immediately and was like, “Why don’t I do this more often?” And then I was like, “I think I need to process that. Maybe I’ll do some shadow work on it.”

Em: You gotta– Oh!

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Yeah, you gotta have a Fun Little Treat. Listen, the–

Christine: Oh!

Em: What?

Christine: I know why it felt like a Fun Little Treat. I’m sorry. I just remembered. So I had my first panic attack in like a year last night. And–

Em: Oh. Good thing to remember now. Okay.

Christine: [laughs] It was– Yeah, I remember now. And it was like pretty bad, and I fe–

Em: What about?

Christine: Well, nothing really which is why it’s so frustrating. It’s like I–

Em: I didn’t know if you had like a trigger or something.

Christine: I, I couldn’t really point to one. I think I was just overwhelmed. Like I realized yesterday– I think I was kind of just factually putting things together, and it finally clicked in my head that I r– I toured every month this year. Like I don’t think I went more than like 10 days without leaving my town.

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine: Like it was a lot. And I think– And it was all fun and great, and I wanted to do it. But I think it just like it’s that crashing time of year.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So I was like about to have a panic attack, and I p– [laughs] I woke Blaise up, which like I never fucking do. Like waking people up is not my jam, right? I don’t wanna ruin your day, but it w– He was–

Em: Thank you.

Christine: Yeah, you’re welcome. Um, but yeah. He like just held my hand, and I like had to breathe. And then he counted my like box breathing.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And I’m always like, “Breathing doesn’t do anything.” Um.

Em: I really also believe that breathing doesn’t seem to do anything for me, but maybe I’m doing it wrong.

Christine: I think it’s just like you have to just say– you have to just know that it’s gonna work. ’Cause scientifically it does, ’cause it does lower your heart rate, cortisol, etc. So I’m like breathing and whatever, and I felt better. And, um, I just had a weird night, and then I had nightmares and then the panic attack, and then the cold shower and then having to get out of bed, that part sucked, and then really intensive child sh– child therapy shit. And now, I got a Dr. Pepper, and I feel like that was my FLT for all that.

Em: Also scientifically speaking, you just shoved a bunch of chemicals into your body, and now you’re feeling a lot better. [laughs] You’re just like, “Whee!”

Christine: You know– But what– you know what though? It’s not true ’cause I haven’t even started it yet.

Em: Ooh! It’s the– It’s just the placebo. The looking forward to it.

Christine: S– I think it’s just the act of doing it, you know.

Em: That’s why I love my FLTs.

Christine: No, it makes sense.

Em: I just get a dopamine rush of–

Christine: It’s like a psychological thing.

Em: It’s just a dopamine rush of getting a gift.

Christine: I love it.

Em: And it’s a gift I know I like ’cause I picked it out.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Before people, uh, go in the comments saying we should not tour because you’re so overwhelmed with travel, what do you say to that because–? I’m just giving you a platform before everybody says we’re traveling too much.

Christine: Oh, I mean, we are traveling too much probably. At least for like the– a sane person to be doing.

Em: Probably.

Christine: Um. Yeah, no, I–

Em: I’m having, I’m having fun.

Christine: It is fun.

Em: I, I also have had the– I’ve also had the, the overwhelm hit me. But, but then I miss it when we’re not doing it. So I don’t ever really know how to feel.

Christine: I think– But here’s the thing. I think this year I didn’t have any time to miss it, ’cause I was literally doing it every month.

Em: Oh, ’cause it was non-stop. Yeah.

Christine: I think there was not a month where I didn’t do like at least four or five shows, I don’t think. Like it– at least. So it was just a lot. Um, and I think–

Em: Well, just quit that other podcast. It’s fine.

Christine: Yeah, I know. Who, who needs it? Um, no, but so I think what I’m gonna have to do just, uh, moving forward is maybe really taking the time to think through a yearly like plan or schedule. You know? Like maybe plan–

Em: Yeah. We can also just cancel our current tour if you’d like. You say the word, we’re d–

Christine: No, god– Yeah, imagine. Anyway, I’m here to tell you I’m super happy with my FLT–

Em: People would understand.

Christine: –and I quit the podcast! [laughs] No. Um, no–

Em: If it–

Christine: –we’re touring f– in the spring. I’m fucking amped. We already have a show. It’s gonna be kick ass. Um.

Em: We can also always talk about taking a break in the fall and then picking back up in 2026.

Christine: Something like that maybe, yeah. I–

Em: That’s fine.

Christine: So that’s just what I’ve been working through and figuring out if that’s what I want or if I just need a better like system for myself when I’m home. Like I don’t know. There’s a lot to unpack there, but, um, that’s why I drink. Um, and I’ve been doing that thing where I don’t breathe deeply enough–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –so sometimes I gasp really loudly, and everyone’s like, “What’s wrong?” And it– I just was like, “Oh, I forgot how to breathe for a second.” Um, so I do apologize if the– that happens. But, um, anyway, I’m sorry to take up so much time. Thank you for listening to me rant and ramble.

Em: No, you’re good. I feel– I do feel for you because I love the traveling, which is so wild because I feel like when we first started, it was maybe the opposite.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And you loved it, and I was like– I needed some encouragement. But, um, I love it all of a sudden, and now, honestly, if we stopped touring for a, a period, I think I would take the time and travel. [laughs] Like I, I– so–

Christine: Yeah! That’s awesome!

Em: So, no matter what I’m– You– If you tell me, “Let’s not tour,” that’s fine. I’ll just keep tra–

Christine: Then like you do an Em tour. What if you did a solo tour?

Em: I’ll just– Well, it would be, uh, to every good burger joint, and everyone can just follow me there.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: But I’m not doing anything live without you.

Christine: Hey, careful with that. You could be creating like the biggest new hit sensation with that.

Em: I’m the new Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re the new Guy.

Em: Uh, no, I– so I, I think I forget that, uh– I also– I have a very privileged life. I am like childless. I have no responsibilities. I have a house that I don’t have to be there if I don’t really wanna be. I– So traveling for me is, uh, not as overwhelming. ’Cause also I, I stay a lot longer. But you’ve a literally whole family to take care of when you get back, so.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s like–

Em: I get it. I– Well, I don’t, but I get that I don’t get it.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, no. And I– And that’s the thing too is like the travel has also been a break from, you know, like home life too in a way. So it’s like, oh at least when I’m traveling, I’m not like waking up early and like doing errands, you know, so it has like its own–

Em: But you are ’cause we’re waking up at like f– six in the morning to go to the airport. [laughs]

Christine: Okay, yeah. [laughs] And then it’s like six am, and I’m like, “I haven’t slept in three days. This is so relaxing.” Yeah. No, no, I– And I love– I do love to travel, and I love touring. Um, and I don’t think I’ll ever wanna stop touring, like I mean as far as I, I can tell.

Em: It’ll always be the grass is always greener as soon as you stop, you’re gonna go, “Why did I stop?”

Christine: I don’t think I would wanna stop yet. I mean, I’m sure someday it’ll be too much, but like I, l– I fucking love it. I love the shows. I love, I love it, so I don’t ever wanna stop doing it. But, um, it– I– I think it just is one of those things where I have to realize like you can love something but maybe just like, uh, rearrange how you, you put it into your life, you know?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Maybe like shift things. So, you know, it’s a lot of, uh, processing and trying to figure out how to, uh, be like– Like just figure out how to be authentic and figure out what I need and want and go from there. So it’s a, it’s a journey. But, um, I’m just so happy about my Dr. Pepper, man. I don’t know what’s going on. I think I’m just like delighted to be here alive with you, Em.

Em: Oh, my. Wow. That’s– That would–

Christine: Yeah, yeah. No, not a big deal or anything. But, um, why do you drink? I would love to hear.

Em: Uh… I got nothing like [laughs] like that. Um–

Christine: You could talk about your cold again.

Em: No, I’ve– People have heard enough.

Christine: [laughs] What if this was all just a ploy to be like, “Now anyway, back to your sinuses.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: Just kidding, I also have fucky sinuses so.

Em: Well, I was actually– The irony is I, I’m still trying to figure out how many cities I have left on my list before I hit all 50 states.

Christine: Oh! What’s left? I– We’ve talked about this probably every month, and I always forget.

Em: There, there’s 10. And there would have been– Well, maybe there’s 11 now because remember I was gonna go to Omaha, Nebraska, and then I–

Christine: Oh, yeah! That had to get cancelled.

Em: That got pushed. Yeah. So maybe now there’s 11, which I hate. I wanted– I liked at least a round number, a 10 or less.

Christine: I actually like 11 ’cause you know how I like my one one, one one pattern.

Em: Well, it’s half of 22.

Christine: Yeah… Oh! Wait a minute! I just got a tattoo of the ones. You are 22. It didn’t even occur to me. Wow.

Em: Um, 11 is usually a number I– is one of the main numbers I guess if I ever have to guess a number.

Christine: It’s a good one. I’m biased but–

Em: Um–

Christine: –’cause it’s tattooed on my body now. But–

Em: I, uh– But, no so, I–

Christine: Hey, Em?

Em: What?

Christine: Guess what’s tattooed on my body?

Em: O-one one one?

Christine: How did you know? Was that just a guess?

Em: Yeah, I, I absolutely guessed. I was like, “What’s half of two two two?”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, but so, I was trying to think of new places to go or– and, honestly, if we ever– if you ever truly say, “Let’s not tour for a season.” I will just go, “Great, this is my 10 cities tour for myself where I knock ‘em all off the list.”

Christine: Fuck yeah! Can I ask which– I know I’ve asked this before and– so, forgive me if I’m just like completely–

Em: I don’t, I don’t have them, uh, written down.

Christine: Okay. What– Is there one–?

Em: I know Hawaii and Alaska are obviously like–

Christine: Okay, I was, I was gonna ask.

Em: But–

Christine: So you haven’t been to Hawaii before? I thought you had.

Em: I, I went when I was a baby, but I’m trying to like have my own experiences at each place.

Christine: Experience each town? I like that.

Em: But I also feel totally weird about going to Hawaii right now, so I think that’ll be my like, my final one. Um, but I really want to go to Alaska. Um, lot to do. [laughs] Well, I don’t know about lot to do, but lot to see. There’s big o–

Christine: I was gonna say, yeah.

Em: It’s very big.

Christine: It depends on how you think about it. But–

Em: Uh, I want to see if it is like ethical to do like the, like letting dogs– the dog sled stuff happen. I really want–

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “Where are we going with this?” Oh, dog sledding. Oh my lord.

Em: ’Cause there’s like a th– there’s a thing where you can go dog-sledding. But–

Christine: I promise you someone will tell you immediately that it–

Em: Someone– But someone will have a problem, and someone won’t have a problem.

Christine: Exactly.

Em: So I have to go like figure it out myself if it’s actually a problem.

Christine: You have to do like your own inner authentic research as I say.

Em: As QAnon says, do your own research.

Christine: Do your own research, and you know what? I’m gonna fucking take that and make it my own. Okay?

Em: Yeah. I think honestly most of the places on my list are places that I– With love to the people who live there, I don’t think I would ever see myself being there to begin with.

Christine: [laughs] Right.

Em: ’Cause it’s a lot of places where, um, the culture there is that you’re outdoor people and that you like mountains and shit.

Christine: [laughs] O-oh, I see.

Em: So it’s like Montana and South Dakota and North Dakota and like a lot of places where adventurers go.

Christine: Right.

Em: And I’m not that. So that’s why I haven’t been to them. Um.

Christine: A-and you don’t have like personal connections, and it’s like a lot of them are–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –a lot of those outdoory– outdoorsy states are out of the way also.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like why would you– You wouldn’t accidentally end up there.

Em: The fly-overs.

Christine: A fly-over, yeah.

Em: Um, but I did look up like major cities that I haven’t been to, and there’s not too many left, so I’m– Maybe that’ll be my next list.

Christine: That’s exciting.

Em: Anyway, so. I–

Christine: The Em Tour! I bet you you could do some sort of like meetup.

Em: I could do something weird. I’m sure I could make it into a thing. Let’s exploit my memories.

Christine: I– Listen, is it weird– Can I just– No, can I just be like your tour manager? I wanna build like an Em–

Em: Sure.

Christine: Em Tour. I want to take a break and just like produce something for a while, and I wanna make sure you do like some sort of, um–

Em: We’ll– Let’s, let’s just make a deal now in front of everybody. Maybe we just don’t do a fall 2025 tour.

Christine: It’s a deal. Let’s make a deal. I guess 11.

Em: Okay. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, Maggie won’t be happy that we already announced that.

Christine: Maggie’s gonna love this! Especially that Eva’s not on the line. We’re just fucking–

Em: We’re going rogue.

Christine: –going rogue.

Em: This is why Eva usually has to be here to be like, “No, no, no. Don’t say that out loud.”

Christine: [laughs] They’re gonna be like, “Don’t tell people.” Although–

Em: No, people will be excited because people are always saying that we travel too much. So if that’s true, then they will all understand if we take fall off, and then we’ll come back in, um, spring 2026.

Christine: Fuck yeah! It’s the Em Tou– Em, Em goes solo fall 2025, folks.

Em: [laughs] Now that I don’t know wh– how– what we’re gonna do. Write in the comments what you’d like to see me do across the country by myself.

Christine: [laughs] Please! Please let me be part of it, guys! Let me produce like the Em Show for a while. I just want to take a break.

Em: If you do want a chance to, uh, see me, then maybe like look up canoe trips in North Dakota or something.

Christine: Go to– I was gonna say, go to like a dog sledding place and put a, put a mustache on in case Em finds out it’s unethical.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then like you’ll figure it out. It’s fine. Anyway. Well, thank you, Em, for being, um, supportive of my, uh, issues.

Em: Well, I would like to tour for as long as possible, and if we need to stretch it out so that way you’re still in love with it, then that’s what we’ll do, but I–

Christine: I appreciate– I do appreciate that.

Em: ’Cause I, I don’t– I don’t wanna find out when I’m still like stoked to be touring that you’re like, “Okay, I’m done now.”

Christine: No. No, no, no. No, no. I don’t think so, and I, I think the reason it even works so well every year is that we both like it. Like I don’t think we would have done it for years now if we– if one of us fucking hated it.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And I don’t think I would get that– to that point for a long time. I think this year I just kinda overdid it, that’s all. I think I just need to like slow down. I mean, my body– And then I kept missing Remicade ’cause like I had to schedule it when I was in town, which was like never.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And then so I would miss Remicade, and then like I would go into these flares. And then my s– frickin’– I– my psoria-sistas out there, uh, you know that started just cropping up. And I was like, “What could be the reason?” And everyone’s like, “Stress?” And I was like, “I’m not stressed.” And I–

Em: I think it’ll also be easier if we hold off until like Leona’s in a school. You know? Like–

Christine: Oh, that would– That would also be a humongous help if just daytime was for work for me–

Em: So– Yeah.

Christine: –and not just like, “Hey, let me have two hours to record while you smear peanut butter on the walls.” You know?

Em: Yeah, well, by the time we’re back on tour, that’ll be when I magically decide I want children or something, so–

Christine: Oh my god! Imagine. You’re like, “Actually, I’m really f–“ And then it’s the Christine Tour.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Look out, world!

Em: That actually would be very funny.

Christine: Your sloppy seconds are coming to Nebraska! Whoo-hoo!

Em: [sighs] Well, we’ll talk to Maggie about an Em Tour, and see what the hell that looks like.

Christine: Oh no. She’ll be talking to us about it when she hears about this and goes, “What the fuck did you do?”

[laughs]

Em: Okay. Well, anyway. That, uh– There you go.

Christine: Anyway.

Em: Maybe this will actually boost our–

Christine: Thank you for talking me through that. Oh yeah! Hey!

Em: Maybe this, this will boost our sales.

Christine: So now come fucking– Come buy tic– Watch, watch this all was just a con, and then in the, in the summer, we’ll be like, “Just kidding. We are touring. And we tricked you into buying tickets.” No.

Em: I– So far there is truly no talk of that, so I think we’re okay.

Christine: And there’s also never that much forethought in the things we say, so.

Em: That’s true. Um, so maybe we’ll have the best tour ever in Fall 2025. [laughs]

Christine: Rest assured. [laughs] Yeah, good point.

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Em: I have, uh, a story for you which is a cryptid.

Christine: [gasps] Ooh! It’s been a while. What was the last cryptid?

Em: Which– I don’t know. I don’t know. I always go–

Christine: Oh, no besides Christmas. You did a Christmas cryptid.

Em: I always go back and forth on cryptids because people seem to have problems. I don’t know.

Christine: People have opinions on the aliens and the cryptids and the haunted hou– I mean, the other day, I was like, why– Somebody said, “Why do you do so many haunted houses?” I’m like, “What do you mean? That’s–“

Em: Like it’s a fucking paranormal show. What are you talking about?

Christine: That’s the point of the show. And I get like–

Em: Sorry, I’m not trying to be an asshole. I just get so riled up about it.

Christine: No!

Em: It gets like– Like someone, uh, said like, “Well, you never do any, any variety.” And it’s like, well, the last time I did variety, people complained that I didn’t do the ghosts.

Christine: I complained!

Em: So I don’t fucking know.

Christine: Literally, I complained. I said, “Where are all the haunted houses?” And now people are– You know. So I’m like, well, maybe, maybe people have different [laughs] desires.

Em: I don’t know. It’s always– I th– I think half of the listeners have something to say when I’m doing one thing, and then half the listeners have something to say– Like there’s always a hater on either side of the fence because I just–

Christine: Well, and I think most of the listeners are probably just happy either way and are not, you know, picking sides.

Em: Maybe.

Christine: But I think there are vocal–

Em: But the people who–

Christine: There are vocal folks who make their opinions known, which is fine. Obviously.

Em: But the people who straight up just DM me like complaining about me. I’m like, “Well, that– you– so mean. Why are you doing that?”

Christine: [laughs] At least text Christine about this. She’ll, she’ll have something to say.

Em: Well, they’ll like say, “Wow, you’ve clearly checked out.” And I’m like, “What? When the fuck did I do that?” Anyway.

Christine: [laughs] You’re like, “What? Where? I am?”

Em: [laughs] Look, I–

Christine: You’re literally proving your own point?

Em: The irony is sometimes they’ll say that I– They’ll reach out and say that I’ve obviously checked out, when I’m actually– I’ve never been more locked the fuck in. And then they’re like, “You’re– You’ve obviously checked out.” And I’m like, “Okay. Well, maybe I shouldn’t fucking try ’cause that’s when I sound better?” I don’t know.

Christine: I th– No. But I– But I think that’s why I, I’m so mi– perplexed in my brain, right? ’Cause it’s like what does everyone want? And it’s like, “Wait a second. No, what the fuck do I want?” Because if I show up, and I’m like, “Hey, this is what I wanna do and what we wanna do for the show,” then the people who like it will like it and will stay. And you know what? At a certain point, we can’t please everybody, you know, which took me 30-some years to realize, but– It’s a hard truth to swallow.

Em: I know I always think– I always think I overcome it and then someone’s got something to say–

Christine: I know. I know.

Em: –about something I actually haven’t prepped for.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Or they’re like, “Oh, your research sucks.” And I’m like, “Well, this was one of the ones that I actually did put several hours into it.” Oh, you know what someone said to me? Someone wrote and said like, “Can you not just copy Wikipedia next time you wanna do your research or do your notes?”

Christine: Woof.

Em: And I was like, “I don’t use–“ Also like, it’s a ghost story. Like what bullet points do you think I’m pulling from–?

Christine: [sighs]

Em: I’ll– I use multiple sources, and by the way, I do my own research. Let’s like put that out there again.

Christine: I do my own research, okay? [laughs]

Em: I do my own fucking research– as– Yeah, as QAnon would say. But, uh– No, I like I, I do several hours. I’m sorry that it looks identical to whatever blog post you looked up, but like how many bullet points do you think there are on a random ghost story? Again, this is not a true crime case where there’s like actual evidence and like interviews and testimonies and shit. I’ve got–

Christine: I just don’t read my DMs. It, it really helps.

Em: The, the ghost walks down the hallway. That’s what I got for you. I don’t fucking know what to tell you. So, uh–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] If you’ve got a problem with it, uh, I don’t know. Fast forward to Christine.

Christine: Keep D– Keep DMing Em about it. Well, DM me about it ’cause I don’t ever check my DMs not for any reason except that it’s just too overwhelming, and there’s so many because people are so– Usually, I mean, that’s almost all kind or interesting things but–

Em: Well, that’s nice.

Christine: Oh, yours is not full of mean people. Come on.

Em: A portion is [laughs]– A por– Enough– Enough that I notice this.

Christine: Well, I don’t read mine, so what the fuck do I know. But like I feel like most of the time it’s just like sending me reels or stuff. I don’t know. I don’t really have time to look at ‘em nowadays, these days, but, um.

Em: At this point now, if people like mention me in a story, I’ll repost it. And other than that, I try not to look because every time it’s just like, “Oh, what’s it gonna be?”

Christine: Well, I mean– And it’s always gonna stand out, right? Like it’s why we don’t go on Reddit anymore because it’s hard to un-see something. It’s impossible to un-see something or un-think something.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And so, you know, if it like, if it like snags at the right spot in your brain, it can spiral you out, so. Have to be careful.

Em: Yeah. Anyway, I’m–

Christine: But anyway, we love most– Uh, I also feel like that’s just the loud– that’s just some people, and, you know, you’re allowed to have opinions, and, um, we’re always happy to hear them, you know. We’re just gonna do what we wanna do [laughs] probably.

Em: Anyway, here’s a cryptid. For all the people who hate cryptid stories–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –I don’t know. Just wait ’til next week, and you can try again. [laughs]

Christine: What about all the people who hate when we just complain and explain things for 25 minutes?

Em: Ah, they’re used to it. Uh, [laughs] they’re used to it.

Christine: [laughs] There’s no escape. There’s no escaping that part of the podcast.

Em: Shoutout to the person in the YouTube comments who always like puts the timestamp for when we start talking.

Christine: I know. It is nice. ’Cause it seemed like we were about to, and then it was like, “Just kidding! One more detour.”

Em: They must moan and groan every single time they think they’ve got the number down.

Christine: Just check the comments. I’m sure they’ll tell you.

Em’s Story – The Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp

Em: Okay. Here is a cryptid if you like cryptids. Uh, this is the Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp.

Christine: Ooh!

Em: And, uh, I tried to figure out why the swamp was called Scape Ore, which it’s two words: Scape Ore. And apparently, this might be a bastardization of the word Sceloporae.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Which ironically, it was– I, I think the swamp was named before they ever had this cryptid, but it’s literally a bastardization of a word that means “the lizards that live in the area.”

Christine: Oh, interesting.

Em: Isn’t that fun?

Christine: Yeah. So it’s like a full circle in a weird way.

Em: It is. It happens to be about lizards, and now there’s a Lizard Man, uh, running around.

Christine: Interesting. Huh.

Em: So, this is in Bishopville, uh, South Carolina, which is in Lee County. Um, here’s a quick description of this Lizard Man as we move on. He is seven feet tall. Yikes.

Christine: Hot. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Christine loves a tall, scaly man.

Christine: I’m actually [laughs] I’m actually more into short men. Sorry. You guys– You gals can take him. You gays and theys can take him.

Em: Did height ev– Did height ever mean anything to you?

Christine: Did what?

Em: Did–?

Christine: No. I literally like am more attracted to short, short people. Short folks.

Em: Really?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Hm.

Christine: It’s a weird fun fact about me.

Em: You saw Blaise, and you went, “You’re exactly the right height.”

Christine: Right height – one inch taller than me. I’m, I’m fine with that.

Em: Uh, he– It does make you look taller in pictures, I guess.

Christine: Thank you. That’s what I’m going far.

Em: I don’t know. You’re already kind of tall.

Christine: He’s an– my accessory.

Em: That’s right, Blaise. Are you listening?

Christine: [laughs] He’s like, “I’m not at home. And she does not tell me what to do.”

Em: [laughs] He’s like, “I’m watching our baby. What are you t–?”

Christine: [laughs] “Yeah, I’m literally trying to run the fucking household.” Ahh…

Em: So, um, Bishopville, South Carolina, and the description is that he’s seven feet tall, has red eyes. He has green scaly skinned–

Christine: God.

Em: –uh, oh, green scaly skin. Is that something you’re into? Are you looking for that too?

Christine: The scaly? After the psoriasis incident of 2024, I think I’m passing on the scaliness.

Em: What about black claws?

Christine: No, thank you.

Em: What about a three-toed foot?

Christine: Pote–

Em: Now, that I could be into. I’m–

Christine: Put some socks on maybe. [laughs] Just–

Em: Although you can’t do the, the toe hugging that I always talk about, you know.

Christine: Ew, Em. Come on. You could do creative. You could do like cat’s cradle, sort of.

Em: Oh! Interesting.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: We can– We’ll find a workaround.

Christine: So I’ve changed my mind. I’m into the three toes now. It’s also the same toes as a sloth, same number of toes.

Em: Oh!

Christine: Three toe– As a three-toed sloth.

Em: Let’s name all the three-toed things that we know of.

Christine: People with three toes and–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] –three-toed sloths I think are the ones.

Em: Well, so this is in 1988. This is the summer of 1988. Some sources said the end of June. Some of it said early July. Who cares? Summer of 1988. This is–

Christine: It’s all a blur.

Em: It’s all a blur. It was all within the same week it seems. It’s in the middle of the night around 2 am. There’s a 17-year-old named Chris Davis, and he was heading home from his shift at McDonald’s where you got yourself that D. Peppy.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And his tire blows out, which is so interesting so far because the story I told last week is that a tire blew out in the middle of the night–

Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say didn’t we just talk about that? But then I was like, “Maybe I’m delusional.” But we did.

Em: Mm-hmm. Um, so his tire blows out on his way home near the Scape Ore Swamp.

Christine: Mm.

Em: He changes his flat, and that’s when he hears something behind him on the road.

Christine: Nah.

Em: Which at 2 am, anything I hear when I’m on an empty road f– changing a flat, I’m petrified. I’m petrified.

Christine: Outside of your car? Yeah, forget it. It’s nothing good.

Em: So he was probably already on, um, high alert.

Christine: Right, on edge.

Em: But this is a quote from him of what happens next. This is his whole testimony: “I look back, and I saw something running across the field towards me. It was about 25 yards away, and I saw red eyes– Oh, I saw red eyes glowing. I ran into the car, and as I locked it, the thing grabbed the door handle.”

Christine: [screaming] Aah!

Em: Literally out of a horror movie.

Christine: Yes!

Em: Also like how slow were you getting up and getting in the car when this thing had to run at you?

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, but, but, but, but you know in the horror movie when you’re like your keys fall, and you’re like, “Oh shit, oh shit!”

Em: Yes.

Christine: And it’s an old car, so like maybe it didn’t have a remote thing, and you had to like– [screaming] Aah!

Em: Also– Oh, you have to unlock it with a key. I– Also, I know that me getting up, who am I to judge this man? Because–

Christine: Yeah, I know, right? Like we’re so fucking s– lithe and limber.

Em: Having to get up from the ground, I’d go, [grunting] “Eugh…” Like–

Christine: You’d just lay there. We’d both just lay there and be like, “Just take me. Whatever.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Fucking take me to your lizard lair.”

Em: “I looked– or, I ran into the car, and as I locked it, the thing grabbed the door handle. I could see him from the neck down.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: “The three big fingers, long black nails and green rough skin. It was strong and angry.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “I looked in my mirror and saw a blur of green running.” Eugh.

Christine: What?

Em: “I could see his toes–“ How–? How good is this mirror?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: You can see h– from the neck to toes?

Christine: I took my binoculars out and sharpened the focus.

Em: [laughs] “And then he jumped on the roof of my car.”

Christine: No.

Em: Toes and all. Three toes and all.

Christine: Yuck.

Em: Um, jumped on the roof of my car… “I thought I heard a grunt–“ That was me getting up off the floor.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “And then I could see his fingers through the front windshield where they curled around the roof.”

Christine: Ew! He’s trying to pull the roof off!

Em: “I sped up and swerved to shake the creature off.”

Christine: No!

Em: Which like I love that you can probably see his fingers like sliding as he’s getting swerved around.

Christine: Oh my god, those claws like scratching the glass.

Em: Eventually, he does shake the guy off, and he speeds away.

Christine: I ima– wonder how loud that like thud! Roll, roll, roll.

Em: It was another grunt of me getting up off the floor.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [grunting] Eugh! So when he looked at his car when he got home, it had scratches and dents all over it, and it looked like it even had bite marks.

Christine: Oh my god. I would never look at that car again. I’d be like, “Somebody else– You– Someone can take it. I don’t want it.”

Em: Yeah, “This is all you.” Yeah.

Christine: “All yours.”

Em: Um, apparently, Chris told his parents what happened, and his dad was like, “Don’t say anything because that’s a really fucking weird story.” Um, also a lot of skeptics immediately are like the Lizard Man never existed. He got in a car crash at 2 in the morning.

Christine: He rolled his car or something. Yeah.

Em: And he didn’t know what to tell his parents, and he just came up with this mythical creature.

Christine: “It was a big lizard!” I mean–

Em: “His toes! I saw them from the mirror.”

Christine: It’s like on the one hand, I get why you’d– your inclination would be like, oh, this is just a fib. But on the other hand, I’m like, why wouldn’t you–? It’s not a three-year-old. Like wouldn’t you come up with a better fib?

Em: Well, maybe he was a little– [Em mimics smoking a joint] He was–

Christine: Ohh, he’s stoney-baloney. And he’s like, “This is a big lizard.” And it’s like, “No, that was just the big bush that you drove into. You were confused.”

Em: Yeah. Maybe he’s just tripping balls, you know?

Christine: Maybe. Yeah, okay, maybe you’re right.

Em: Maybe he really saw it. Maybe he really saw it. I don’t know.

Christine: Then maybe he really saw it.

Em: Uh, a few weeks passed, and remember, Chris has not told anybody. But a few weeks pass, and now there’s a couple named Tom and Mary. And they report that their car has been vandalized by someone. And when the police come to look at their car, it was, quote, “mauled and chewed up.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And I guess their car was just like sitting under a carport, and they woke up the next day after hearing a sound. And this car, when the police came to look at it, all of the chrome had been ripped off the car.

Christine: What?

Em: The fender well and the wheel well had bite marks in it. There was damage to all side of the car, and there were signs of hair, saliva, and three-toed footprints.

Christine: Oh my god. Hair and saliva?

Em: So the hair and saliva were determined to be a fox or something like a fox. But that doesn’t add up to anything else, and eventually, the police were like, “I don’t know. It was a bear. I can’t think of anything else with hair and saliva that big that can damage a car.”

Christine: [laughs] And that cares to like even take the time to pull a car apart, yeah.

Em: Yeah. It s– It must be a three-toed bear that stole all of the chrome off your car.

Christine: What is this– [laughs] What is this, uh, what is this thing with, with the cars? Like why does this thing give a shit about–?

Em: It just– It’s shiny? I don’t know.

Christine: What is it–? Yeah, what’s in there that he wants so bad?

Em: That’s a good question. Maybe in the cold, maybe– Well, it’s summer. I was gonna say maybe it’s cold, and he likes the warmth of the car.

Christine: I mean, he sounds like he’s mad, like he’s trying to like–

Em: Maybe– I mean, honestly if this is some crazy cryptid animal, it’s like a dog seeing a tennis ball roll down the hill. It’s like, “Oh, I’m just gonna chase after it.” You know?

Christine: Oh! Oh, he’s like playing fetch. But like with this one, didn’t you say it was in their garage?

Em: Yeah, it was parked. I don’t know.

Christine: That’s why it’s so weird to me. I’m like, if it’s somebody driving and he’s thinking it’s like an enemy, I can see why you would attack. But like why would you just go into a garage and be like, “I’m gonna beat this thing up”?

Em: Yeah, I don’t know.

Christine: Hm.

Em: It makes almost more sense if it were just a human and just trying to like steal your parts off your car or something.

Christine: Yeah, your CDs. [laughs]

Em: Well, so anyway, after this story came out, and I guess they reported it to the police. People found out about it, and Chris was like–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –“Oh, well, now that I don’t look so fucking crazy, can I tell you about my destroyed car?” And he goes to the police, and he– Thank god–

Christine: Okay, to go to the police, there’s no way he’s like trying to cover up for something. ’Cause you wouldn’t like go out of your way to tell the police about this if like you were trying to just tell your parents you scraped up the car, and it wasn’t you.

Em: That’s true. He felt– He s–

Christine: Right? Like you wouldn’t go all the way to the police.

Em: I agree. I like– He’s like, “Well, now that it’s been mentioned.” Or maybe he needed to double down ’cause his parents were like, “You and this fucking car. There’s no mythical creature.” And he went, “Wait a minute. Hang on. Let me–“

Christine: “I’m gonna tell the police about it.” [laughs]

Em: “Let me ride this high.” [laughs] Yeah.

Christine: “Let me, uh, take another shroom, and I’ll go tell the police about it.”

Em: Yeah [laughs]. Um, but anyway, it emboldened him enough to go to the police, and he brought with him a drawing of the Lizard Man.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Now, I say thank god because, um–

Christine: Oh, thank god.

Em: I just wouldn’t be able to picture the Lizard Man without this drawing.

Christine: Even with your great description of all his toes?

Em: Here you go.

Christine: Oh-ho-oh! [laughs] Oh, this poor kid. He– [laughs]

Em: That– He– That’s not a lizard, my friend.

Christine: That– Oh–

Em: And also where are his toes you saw so well?

Christine: Buddy. Poor thing.

Em: “The picture of what attacked Christopher Davis.” And then he signed it to authenticate it.

Christine: Christopher Davis. [laughs] But he wrote about himself in the third person–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –so he wrote, “The picture of what attacked Christopher Davis.” Signed, “Christopher Davis.” But folks, if you– Please, I need somebody to go onto our Instagram. I need everyone to look at this frickin’ picture. I– If Leona drew this, I would frame this. Actually, I might frame this and put this on my wall.

Em: Okay.

Christine: It– Like I f– It makes me just delightfully happy. Look at this guy.

Em: You could– You could just have her learn how to sign her own name. It could just say–

Christine: He looks like Salad Fingers.

Em: It does. I mean– And here’s the weird part is remember he said he saw it from the neck down, so he’s drawing a random face that doesn’t look like a lizard.

Christine: No.

Em: He did not draw anything resembling scales.

Christine: It looks like a weird Slenderman or something.

Em: And also– the, the three toes– He didn’t even draw anything below the ankle. And he said he saw the, the toes in high definition, so.

Christine: Maybe he was ca– but maybe he was calling the claws the toes, ’cause it’s like a lizard has four legs.

Em: Maybe, but–

Christine: Like maybe the arm part was the toes he meant, ’cause it has three.

Em: I’m not trying to, to judge his drawing. I’m just thinking if it really terrified you, you would have thrown a little more detail into it. Um.

Christine: I fucking love this drawing. I hope this kid got an A in every art class, ’cause he deserves it.

Em: I certainly hope he got something out of it. Yeah. Um, he got some notoriety. Does that count?

Christine: Aw.

Em: So, Chris be– Obviously, I mean, between the drawing and him being the first story I shared, he does become like the main, first account of the Lizard Man. However, apparently, there was a person who saw the Lizard Man before him, and we just like don’t talk about him. Um, his name was George Holliman. And he allegedly saw this thing like months before when he was near the swamp, and he saw um– He said it looked humanoid. It was standing and watching him. He thought it might have b– just been a dead tree, but then he watched it like slither into the swamp as a car passed by.

Christine: Ew! Like an alligator.

Em: And– Yeah. So, okay, that was my first thought, ’cause alligators look like dead trees.

Christine: You think like a log. Yeah.

Em: Yeah, and they just slither into the swamp. So I’m thinking he just saw a fucking alligator. But–

Christine: I mean, it is a l– big lizard, right? Like I guess you’re not wrong.

Em: Yes, and they have three toes, right? Or they’ve got– No, they’ve got little fingers.

Christine: They’ve got– Well, I would have mentioned them alongside the three-toed people and the three-toed sloths if, if they were indeed three-toed, but I do not believe they are.

Em: Someone get Robert Irwin on the horn ’cause I need to know about how many fingers.

Christine: Listen, I have one right here.

Em: Count the toes.

Christine: Oh, this one has three, Em.

Em: Oh! Okay, see. We are closer to the truth.

Christine: Holy shit. That’s amazing.

Em: Um, so, I think maybe that George Holliman guy saw an alligator, and he just wanted to like–

Christine: [mumbling as typing] How many toes does an alligator have?

Em: I think he just wanted to join the, the bandwagon.

Christine: Oh. What the fuck? Who do the, the Newport–

Em: Don’t, don’t they have little fingers?

Christine: What do the Newport Aquarium think they’re doing putting three toes on this? When in reality, alligators have five toes on their front feet and four toes on their back feet.

Em: That’s what I’m talking about how they got little tiny little Vienna sausages.

Christine: Well, what about crocodiles? Crocodile toes. Okay, these pictures are really alarming. If I saw this, I would be like, “There’s a Lizard Man out and about.” If I saw these claws. So do you think he was attacked by an alligator? Okay, I’m sorry.

Em: I mean, I also– I truly don’t know, but I– I would guess an alligator. It’s not the craziest thing anyone’s said so far. And also they can leave a–

Christine: No, and like–

Em: They can leave a bite mark on a car.

Christine: Right? And, and swamp? Swamp? Alligator?

Em: Yeah. This is where I do admit to the people who are gonna go crazy thinking about this. I don’t know the difference between a crocodile and an alligator.

Christine: Oh, god. Don’t make me do this. Uh, okay.

Em: No, we don’t h– I don’t, I don’t care enough honestly. Um, I’m just gonna use the word interchangeably.

Christine: No, cr– Alligators are– No, no, no. Alligators are ours, are North America.

Em: Okay. What the hell is crocodile? Like Australia?

Christine: Crocodiles are like in the Nile, in Egypt and in, in, in maybe Australia? Uh, they’re found in more–

Em: Well, Crocodile Hunters is from Australia.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think cr– Uh, it says alligators are found in freshwater habitats, so like a Florida Everglades type thing, I assume, while crocodiles are usually found in coastal, brackish, and saltwater habitats.

Em: But a swamp? Isn’t a swamp brackish? Or no?

Christine: No, I think a swamp is not saltwater.

Em: I need to go back to elementary school and talk to somebody.

Christine: I mean, I’m telling you right now.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Oh wait, they can be either one. But a freshwater swamp–

Em: Okay. [laughs]

Christine: A freshwater swamp! It’s like water can be anything. Water– A swamp can be made of any kind of water– ocean water or freshwater.

Em: It’s what your heart believes. It’s whatever you desire in a swamp.

Christine: No, it’s facts. I’m telling you. You don’t believe me.

Em: Anyway, I do agree with you.

Christine: The Everglades is a freshwater swamp which means it’s alligators.

Em: I agree with you that an alligator could have been, um, like whoever George saw.

Christine: I thought you– I literally was about to start screaming, ’cause I thought you were about to tell me, “I believe you that alligators live in–“

Em: I believe that you think that.

Christine: And I was like, “I’m going to start fucking screaming in five seconds.”

Em: I think it’s really brave of you to say that out loud, Christine.

Christine: [laughs] Thank you. “I’m so proud of you for coming to that conclusion, Christine. Um, I’m sure you think it’s reality.” Uh–

Em: And that’s all that matters sometimes.

Christine: And that’s– You know what? What– Who am I to take that away from you? Anyway.

Em: Anyway, Chris is the main character who saw the first one, but then this other guy, George, said, “I saw something slither into the swamp.” And I, I think, like you, that it was probably an alligator or–

Christine: Could be an alligator, yeah.

Em: Or some– I don’t know what animals are in this swamp. Maybe this is not an alligator swamp. I don’t know.

Christine: Maybe it’s a giant iguana. Those things are scary and big.

Em: That’s true. That’s true, yeah. Um, and also he saw it in the middle of the night too, so maybe it’s not even a– You know, he saw only half of it or whatever. Anyway, so a few people have seen this thing so far. We’ve got George, who’s technically the first, Chris, who everyone considers the first, and then this couple who reported their car.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, after that many people had come forward, there’s this guy named Sheriff Truesdale. We love Sheriff Truesdale. He takes his job very seriously.

Christine: Do we?

Em: Yes, we do.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um, and he– Just like yesterday, I’m surprised that the police took the last case seriously that I talked about. Sheriff Truesdale was fucking on this.

Christine: Oh!

Em: He was like, “I have waited my whole life to crack the case wide open.”

Christine: Yeah, “I have been waiting [laughs] for this moment.”

Em: “And this is, this is my moment.” Um, and so anybody who reported something, he, he took it seriously. But then he started asking around, and this is what he said: “I’ve probably collected ten more names, and not one of them had reported it. No one volunteered information.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “I had to pull it out of them. And that–“ And then he said, “And when you’ve got a creature that’s seven feet tall with red eyes scaring people, you better look into that.”

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: That’s right, Sheriff Truesdale. That’s right.

Christine: That’s right. You don’t mess with my town.

Em: Yeah. He said– He– I, I like to think he just walked around the town like with that p– with that cop waddle.

Christine: Right, like a Wild West.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, like an old west shoot-out. Like, “I dare this Lizard Man to come out here and show himself.”

Em: He– He has like the, the quickest draw–

Christine: Yeah!

Em: –in the whole town. He’s like ready to shoot some alligators or something. I don’t know.

Christine: He’s like, “I got five toes, not three.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “You look out.”

Em: So he is getting all these other reports. Again, he had to go talk to people, and I do wonder when he says he had to pull the information out of them if that means he like almost like forced an like a, a report out of them.

Christine: Imagine like a coerced interrogation technique.

Em: About the Lizard Man.

Christine: He’s like, he’s like depriving them of sleep and food. And he’s like, “You can only have a Coca-Cola if you tell me that you saw the Lizard Man.” [laughs]

Em: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Uh, well, the people that did talk to him said that all their cars, in one way or another, were totally busted.

Christine: What?

Em: Um, something had happened near the swamp, and now their mirrors were ripped off their cars, that their bumpers were chewed on, and they didn’t have an answer for it.

Christine: Okay, so it’s like you’re right, like shiny like maybe?

Em: Y– It’s gotta be– It’s something with the cars.

Christine: The mirrors?

Em: It’s certainly about cars.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and that whole summer, the cops were now on the lookout for the Lizard Man. And they even, uh, were gathering prints, like they found three-toed prints, which, by the way, were like 14 inches tall.

Christine: Mm!

Em: So big ass toes.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: Um, and they were making plaster casts with them. He, actually at one point, um, the sheriff thought that he would send the casts over to the FBI for further analysis, but then, uh, someone like discouraged him from doing that because, I guess, they were someone who knew a lot about animal tracks, and they were like, “This is literally unclassifiable. They’re not gonna be helpful at all, so there’s no point.”

Christine: And they’re just gonna take it. You’re not gonna get it back.

Em: Yeah. So he ended up never sending them in, but he ended up donating them later to the museum, the local museum. Um, but within days of the reports, the Lizard Man was so famous. I mean, now there’s like a dozen people who have sent in reports, so the whole town’s finding out about it, and now there’s this famous cryptid in the area. So truly the town like could not like sustain the amount of people who garnered interest overnight about this thing.

Christine: What?

Em: Um, there was every type of media outlet coming into town. Reporters and tourists were flooding the area. According to one source, Chris was giving 100 interviews a week to reporters.

Christine: With that damn picture. [laughs]

Em: He– With that picture. He’s like, “It looks exactly like this.” I– You know he thought at one point, “I should have fucking drawn some scales on it.” Like some–

Christine: I know.

Em: Something where he’s like, “Argh, I should have really amped this up.”

Christine: He’s like, “I should have– some– Put some, put some ears–“ I’m surprised he didn’t add to it later. Like I would have a– started adding like, “Oh, it had ears and scales and a tail and–“ [laughs]

Em: Yeah. [laughs] He also started doing appearances where he would go to the mall and like sign T-shirts. Um, apparent–

Christine: [laughs] This is sounding like the Em Show Fall 2025! You’d go to the mall and sign things.

Em: I would like to go to the mall and sign T-shirts, and then–

Christine: Can you please just bring that drawing with you and be like, “I’m doing a whole tour.”

Em: “I’m doing a thing. Don’t worry about it.”

Christine: “Yeah, don’t worry about it.”

Em: Um, he– I, I don’t know if this was like a joke, but one of the sources said he that was in a, like a fl– like a parade float, um, because he’s like known for this story now.

Christine: I love that. He’s like, “I’m, I’m a town hero.”

Em: Now that is what I want the Em Tour 2025 to do. I would like to be in all the parade floats and–

Christine: Uh-huh. We can even like have Mardi Gras create a f– Mardi Gras, the entity, create a float that looks like this guy.

Em: That’d be great.

Christine: And it would like terrorize the town.

Em: So they actually literally did create blow-up displays of this Lizard Man.

Christine: Yes. How terrifying.

Em: Um, Chris was also s– at one point, allegedly, supposed to be on Oprah about this.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, and then Sheriff Truesdale said, “We were getting so many calls about the Lizard Man, we had to set up a separate office just to deal with the media.” And they had Associated Press, Time, People–

Christine: They like basically had a task force dedicated to this.

Em: Yes. Associated Press, Time, People, Washington Post, Good Morning America. Pretty much everyone was reaching out.

Christine: Wow.

Em: And, uh, one radio station even offered a million dollar reward if someone were to catch the Lizard Man. In Vegas, there were daily bets if the Lizard Man would be found.

Christine: Oh my god. [laughs]

Em: Uh, the town had somewhere around 50,000 people come to visit that summer, all looking for the Lizard Man. People were making displays and doing inflatables and dressing up their mannequins and writing songs about him–

Christine: Humans are so fucking weird. And I, I like love it–

Em: I love it.

Christine: –but it’s just really– When you see something like this, you’re like, “Man, we’re just kinda nuts, aren’t we?”

Em: [laughs] It’s like imagine if that’s when the aliens came down, and they went, “What the fuck is this celebration?”

Christine: I mean, right? Like any number of times the aliens could come down and go, “What the fuck is happening here?”

Em: Uh, apparen– This was a, a quote about the frenzy at the time: “It was like a creature from the Bla– It was like the Creature from The Black Lagoon had come to life in modern times.” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] In our town?

Em: Yeah. And then they said, the town – this is a quote – “looked like a Carolina–Clemson game. It was bumper-to-bumper traffic. There were people walking around in outfits made out of chrome to entice the Lizard Man because he liked chrome.”

Christine: No!

Em: “And o–“

Christine: Take my clothes off, Lizard Man!

Em: [laughs] You know someone wrote a fanfiction about it.

Christine: Bite my bumper.

Em: “And other people were covering all the chrome on their cars with masking tape.” I mean, imagine driving your car to a place where this thing is hungry for cars.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Like you have to make sure you’re driving the trashiest car, you know. So they were like masking tape, duck taping all their features.

Christine: Yeah, but also if it’s– Yeah, but it’s a crummy car, then it’s more likely that thing’s gonna rip the roof off, so you also have to be– You have to be in a very sturdy vehicle, I imagine.

Em: I like to think there should have been a Lizard Man car show where it’s like which is the most attractive car to the Lizard Man?

Christine: Now that– Let’s just put them all in one big parking lot.

Em: Crummy or chromey? Know what I’m saying?

Christine: Crummy or chromey. That’s the scale we’re using today. And we’re gonna put it right next– in the big parking lot next to the swamp and see what happens.

Em: That’s exactly right.

Christine: See if he climbs on out.

Em: Just leave– Just park all of them, and we’ll leave a security camera running and whichever one gets damaged first wins.

Christine: Ding-ding-ding!

Em: So during the interviews, uh, Truesdale also started telling people– Well, this, this is another reason why, why I really like him.

[clunk as something falls]

Em: Oh god dammit.

Christine: What the fuck was that?

Em: You heard that right?

Christine: Yeah. Well, the whole– Things like moved. Or maybe that was you hitting the laptop but– Holy shit. Something fell. I heard it.

Em: I don’t know. This place has a lot of cats, so.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Let’s just call it that.

Christine: You sound like Blaise, but okay.

Em: [laughs] Okay.

Christine: We’ll be in a house with no cats, and he’ll go, “This place has a lot of cats. That’s all.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I’m like, “No, it doesn’t though.”

Em: I felt so bad. Tom, uh– One of, one of the cats got put down while I’m– while I was here.

Christine: [gasps] What? Oh…

Em: He w– He was the cat that, um, every single member of this family did not like.

Christine: Oh.

Em: He just happened to live here, um, for like–

Christine: Well, no wonder he’s fuckin’ throwing shit off your dresser.

Em: [laughs] I know. Maybe he’s just haunting us.

Christine: Kind of an asshole.

Em: Um, but no, I felt bad for Tom ’cause even though they didn’t totally like each other, it was a long time that they lived together.

Christine: Mm.

Em: But, uh, now everyone– We’re realizing that we had PTSD– It– This was a cat that like was constantly looking for a reason to fuck you up and like was very proud of how deep and strongly he could scratch you.

Christine: Oh good.

Em: Um, so we’re all realizing we can like breathe all of a sudden and not walk on eggshells ’cause there was another– We have– There’s another cat here that looks like that cat, and we would all constantly hesitate like, “Are we petting the right one or is this one gonna scratch us?”

Christine: [laughs] Oh no.

Em: So now we’re realizing that we can, um, relax for a second. It’s a very weird feeling of like grieving something that terrified you, you know?

Christine: Wow. It’s like there’s like a relief in the air.

Em: A little bit. And it feels fucked up to say, but it’s like, “Oh my god. At least no one’s gonna get scratched today.”

Christine: Well, I don’t know, Em. It seems like maybe if you get some claw marks, it’s not a demon, it’s the cat coming back.

Em: Let’s remember that when I get a scratch here. Yeah.

Christine: Well, I mean y– Something literally just fell off the dresser behind you, so I would say be careful how much more you say about this damn cat. [laughs]

Em: That’s a good point. [laughs] That’s a good point. And his name was Bambino. Like he just l– He was just like a little Godfather.

Christine: Aw, I love him.

Em: He just, he just wanted to fucking ruin your day.

Christine: I love him.

Em: Um–

Christine: Bambino.

Em: He was that cat where when people came in– Oh, and his favorite thing is he would do the, the shark thing where he would weave between your legs.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: But it was like– It was to prepare to strike.

Christine: And there’d be like [melody to Jaws theme song] dun-uh. Dun-uh. [laughs]

Em: Yeah, it was, it was actually terrifying.

Christine: [laughs] Jaws.

Em: It was like– He would like weave through your legs, and you’re just like, “Please don’t. Please go away. Please go away.” [laughs] [unintelligible]

Christine: Oh my god. You’re like [hushed voice] “Don’t move.”

Em: Oh yeah. And if people tried to pet him, we were like, “Don’t!” Like ev– We h– It was a very scary time.

Christine: Wow.

Em: He was a very scary cat. Um, anyway. [laughs] Where were we? Oh, so the town is going nuts.

Christine: We got a jumpscare by your deceased cat.

Em: Yes, uh, let’s see. Oh, the town is just going crazy and like you said people are nutso. Um, this is one of the reasons why I really like Sheriff Truesdale is because even though he was doing interviews, he was encouraging anyone else with new information to come forward, but he was very, uh, adamant about like, “If I find out you’re fucking lying and you’re wasting our time trying to get to the bottom of this–“

Christine: Oh.

Em: “–I will put you in jail.”

Christine: So he was not coercing anybody’s stories. He really was saying like, “Don’t fucking lie to me. I wanna get to the bottom of this.”

Em: He was like, “If you know something, please tell us. But if you don’t know anything, keep your mouth shut and stay away from us.”

Christine: I see. I see.

Em: Um, and in the meantime, he was also having some of the witnesses take polygraph tests.

Christine: Wow.

Em: He was sending bloodhounds out to like follow any leads by scent. Uh, apparently the bloodhounds did find something near the swamp, and then they refused to move any further, so that lead to–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –a mysterious dead end.

Christine: Weird.

Em: Um. Uh, Chris passed the polygraph test, and then, even though that sounds like, “Oh, that’s good, so it confirms the story that he was telling,” it still was kind of, um– People started thinking this was maybe a marketing move to keep reporters interested or to keep tourism up.

Christine: I was waiting for s– I was like, I was waiting for somebody to accuse them of that, yeah.

Em: But still, throughout the town, they were having all sorts of stuff happen like, um, they would get a call about a lead. And they would go out into the swamp, and tops of trees would be ripped off.

Christine: Oh gosh.

Em: Um, more cars would be destroyed. Farm animals were being harassed, or they were finding them dead.

Christine: Oh.

Em: At some point– That was just Bambino, I think, actually. Um.

Christine: [laughs] No.

Em: At some point, police even found, um, several 40-gallon drums crushed and broken up all over the road, and they have no explanation for that. That could have just been like teenagers vandalizing things, you know.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But–

Christine: But it feels weird that you would do all of those. Like I feel like after one of the drums, you’d be like, “Okay, that, that’s enough.”

Em: “That was a lot of work.”

Christine: “That’s enough pranking for one evening.” Like 20 of them feels like a lot of work, yeah.

Em: Um, people were still being followed by things. They were being chased by creatures. They were hearing s– weird sounds at night, and some of them said that when they were driving past the swamp, they’d see something run, run across the street. Which, again, could have been a big ass iguana or something because in Florida they cross the street all the time right by the water.

Christine: I was gonna say, who, who the fuck knows what it is in Florida? Could be any number of–

Em: Anything, yeah.

Christine: –very alarming things.

Em: Well, one of the witnesses who came forward, his name was Kenneth Orr. And, um, my sweet, sweet girlfriend, Allison, she is from a town in South Carolina called Florence, and never have I ever seen a reference to Florence, but this is the first time.

Christine: Ay-o!

Em: So, Allison, maybe your family knows Kenneth Orr, but, uh, he made headlines in, in the local Florence paper. And it said, “Florence man wounded ‘Lizard Man.’” So.

Christine: Oh, wait. We’re not in Florida. Why do I keep saying Florida? Sorry. Uh–

Em: Florence, South Carolina.

Christine: Florence man does what?

Em: “Florence man wounded ‘Lizard Man.’”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: So he makes headlines as having wounded the Lizard Man.

Christine: Uh, yeah. It feels like it should be Florida Man, you know. But it’s–

Em: It does. It’s very– pretty close.

Christine: Yeah, it’s pretty damn close. Florence man, yeah. Wow.

Em: Wounds Lizard Man. So–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –Kenneth Orr, the one who made these headlines, he claims that he saw the Lizard Man and that he actually fired a warning shot at him and then actually shot him–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –’cause I guess the Lizard Man didn’t run away. Um, he even brought a sketch to the police, and he brought blood and scale samples to the police that he found on his car–

Christine: What?

Em: –saying, “I fucking shot it, and it ran off. But I got some evidence for you.”

Christine: “And I took its scales.”

Em: “And I took the scales right off my car.”

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: So the sketch was basically the picture of the Lizard Man already being sold on T-shirts, which I would love to know what that picture was ’cause they certainly didn’t use Chris’s drawing.

Christine: Oh, shoot. We don’t have it. I was like, “I hope they use that drawing and just made everything–“

Em: That would be hysterical.

Christine: Did you ever, did you ever watch Community where they– their mascot was the human beings?

Em: [laughs] Yes.

Christine: And it’s like that horrifying like androgynous like person in just like a full body like nylon stocking thing.

Em: [laughs] Maybe they just put that on a shirt.

Christine: Uh, like that’s what this drawing that this kid made looks like. Like that– With all due respect and so much love, I say it.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: But it’s true. It really does look like the human being mascot from Community, but, um, I– So they– So did they go with a more like, uh– Not Godzilla, what’s the other one? Or is it Godzilla?

Em: I didn’t see what his actual sketch was that he brought to the police, but they, they did say it looked like the one that people had been printing on T-shirts when the whole town got big.

Christine: Do you– Do we have that one or no?

Em: I, I didn’t look it up, but I’m sure we can find it.

Christine: I’m curious what that ended up looking like.

Em: [mumbling] Lizard Man.

Christine: Red eyes. Scape Ore Swamp.

Em: Um, it’s just a sketch of like a big lizard, I think.

Christine: Okay, that’s kind of what I figured. Just like a–

Em: It doesn’t really– [unintelligible] Oh.

Christine: [laughs] Oh my gosh, this thing.

Em: Here, this apparently is the original shirt from 1988 when the town went nutso.

Christine: There’s a lot of– There’s a lot of, um, AI-generated content on here.

Em: Oh, is there? I’m not surprised.

Christine: Uh, let’s see. This cryptid fan brought an original– Wow. Good pull.

Em: So th– That would be–

Christine: Let’s see [reading aloud] “This cryptid fan brought an original 1988 Lizard Man shirt from Bishopville.” Oh my gosh, how cool is this? Uh, this is on Lyle Blackburn’s Instagram. The Lizard Man– Oh, that’s hilarious. Okay, how kick ass though? I’m screenshotting this.

Em: So the sketch that Kenneth Orr, Florence man who wounds Lizard Man–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: He sketched something similar to that, and everyone was like, “This looks like the one on the T-shirt.”

Christine: “It’s just like the one. You just traced it.”

Em: Yeah. And the blood and scale samples that he gave to the police were apparently just fish scales.

Christine: Oh, lame-o.

Em: So then he later straight-up admitted to lying because he wanted to keep the story of the Lizard Man alive, and, if you remember Sheriff Truesdale’s warnings, he said if you lie–

Christine: Oh boy. He’s not gonna be happy.

Em: So he ended up being, um, arrested for f– uh, filing a false police report and then, um, something about his– a firearm he had. Um, I don’t know if he had the per– a permit for the firearm or something.

Christine: Wow.

Em: So anyway, poor Kenneth Orr, but also he, uh, went right directly against Sheriff Truesdale’s requests so.

Christine: I mean, don’t make up stories. Come on.

Em: So after that summer– ’cause all that happened in 1988.

Christine: Okay.

Em: It was just like a frenzy. After that summer, there weren’t really any sightings of the Lizard Man again, and things went back to normal. Um, Chris actually tried to distance himself from everything, ’cause, remember, he was doing a hundred interviews a week. He’s wiped out. He is tired. He doesn’t wanna talk about this anymore. So he moves out of Bishopville and tried to totally distance himself as like the guy who saw the Lizard Man.

Christine: [laughs] Poor thing.

Em: Poor guy. Well, uh, fast forward, at 37, he actually was murdered by gun violence.

Christine: Whoa! No.

Em: And the, the sad– Another sad element to it is that because he wanted to be so removed from that story, unfortunately when he died, all the headlines just made it about the Lizard Man again.

Christine: Oh no. Co– Yeah. Okay.

Em: And right around that time – this was 2009 – right around that time, there was a peak in interest again about the Lizard Man.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And I, I assume the headlines had something to do with that.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, but in 2008 and 2011, two other cars were reported destroyed in the town. And, uh, there was again saliva on the cars, but the DNA suggested that the culprit was canine.

Christine: Hm.

Em: And a-at the same time that these cars were reported– This was one in 2008, one in 2011, um, the cars were destroyed, and there were mutilated animals nearby, so it just added to the mystery of like “is the Lizard Man returning?”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and when you mix that with the fact that the headlines about Chris dying happen at the same time, I think that like piqued everyone’s interest again. Um, so then we get into the 2000-teens, and, all of a sudden, people are seeing the Lizard Man again.

Christine: Mm.

Em: In 2015 especially, there is, uh, a man who got a not very good and a very pixelated video of the Lizard Man walking in the woods, but–

Christine: Oh jeez.

Em: –I looked at it and can’t tell at all what it is.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: Um, but he said that was the Lizard Man, and “when I noticed it, uh– Or, when he noticed me, I hightailed it outta there.” Okay, congratulations. The only reason that got any traction is because right before he like released this video of the Lizard Man, another picture of the Lizard Man was released. And I’m just gonna show you that picture.

Christine: Okay. I’m very curious.

Em: This was also in 2015, and there is this woman named Sarah. And she was like, “Oh, I was at church or– And, and I got this picture, and I saw the Lizard Man. I saw him.”

Christine: At church? He was trying to atone for his sins, and you fucking take this opportunity? The audacity.

Em: And she– And this is a quote from her. She said– [laughs] She said, “My hand to God, I’m not making this up.”

Christine: [laughs] I love her.

Em: This is a picture of the Lizard Man she got.

Christine: [laughs] She’s so out of her goddamn mind. She’s out of her gourd? dude. I love her. Whoever this lady is, get her a TikTok account, so I can just watch her ’cause she’s– she has a warped sense of reality is what I’ll say.

Em: For those of you who don’t have YouTube open right now, I mean this picture is– It looks like it’s a back– a background costume from the Power Rangers.

Christine: Yes!

Em: Like it–

Christine: Yes! That’s the best way to put it.

Em: I mean, it’s obviously a– either– I mean, these days I would say it’s AI. But back then it– I mean, it’s definitely someone either in a costume or someone photoshopped this.

Christine: Honestly– Well to me, it looks like, uh– To me, it looks like a, a little, a little figurine that you put, and then you play with the, uh, distance like you, you–

Em: Mm! Forced perspective.

Christine: Forced perspective, yeah. It like– ’Cause to me it looks like a little plastic guy with red eyes that just like–

Em: It looks– It’s not real. It’s not fucking real.

Christine: It’s certainly not real. I think we can all very much agree on that. Um.

Em: And so this churchgoer says, “My hand to God, I’m not making this up.” Well, strike her dead because this is not real.

Christine: Unless somebody– Maybe somebody was wandering around in that. Like s–

Em: Maybe. Maybe she took a picture and went, “Holy shit. I actually found the Lizard Man.” Yeah.

Christine: And they were like that’s just a guy going to the festival.

Em: As if near the swamp is now Hollywood Boulevard, and there’s just people dressed in costume ready for a photo op.

Christine: I mean, I don’t know, but I, I guess. Wow. I don’t know. I have a hard time believing this lady. You know. It’s like–

Em: It would be a great April Fools’ trick or like Halloween. Like someone should dress up–

Christine: To wander around in that? Yeah.

Em: I’m surprised they don’t hire someone.

Christine: No, because also then– No, ’cause then also like you don’t want someone just shooting you.

Em: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Christine: In a Southern state where you’re just wandering around looking threatening. [laughs]

Em: You’re right. Also– Okay. This was in 2015. This picture comes out, breaks headlines all over again. Huffington Post covered it. I mean, a bunch of news outlets. Stephen Colbert did a whole segment on it.

Christine: I love that.

Em: And, um, basically because this got so big that other guy’s video coming out also got some traction, but it wasn’t as good. You know what I mean?

Christine: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Em: But anyway, the Lizard Man came back into the world or on the scene in 2015. And– Which I, I think this is very clever, in, um, 2017, during the total eclipse, the South Carolina Emergency Management team, they, I guess, were tweeting out, teaching people about the eclipse. And they posted a map of all the alleged Lizard Man sightings throughout the years.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: And they tweeted out saying, “This historical map is in response to possible paranormal activity associated with the total solar eclipse. We do not know if Lizardmen become more active during a solar eclipse, so we advise that residents of Lee and Sumter counties remain vigilant.” So basically it was like this guy seems nocturnal, but because this is a solar eclipse, he might get confused when it gets dark.

Christine: And they were serious? Or were they joking?

Em: They like made a bit, like a bit of it. They were–

Christine: Oh, I see. Okay. It was like kinda tongue in cheek.

Em: Um, anyway. That– So those are all the, um, the most recent updates, uh, about this thing. But the ongoing theories. People literally thought that this could be either an alien or a dinosaur. Um–

Christine: [laughs] Oh! I don’t know which I think is more or less likely.

Em: [laughs] Me too. Um, they also thought that people were just getting in car accidents and blaming it on a made-up character. Um, it could be a monitor lizard because when upright they’re– They can be up to five feet tall, which is–

Christine: No. Come on, that’s–

Em: –not seven feet tall plus–

Christine: But that’s insane. That shouldn’t be–

Em: Plus they’re in Australia. Like that one doesn’t totally make sense. Um, it could be some sort of other lizard, which, um, biologists in the area have said that there are 20 types of amphibians in that swamp, and eight of them are, uh, lizards. So there are eight types of lizards in this thing.

Christine: Are any of them three-toed lizard species?

Em: Are any of them seven feet tall with laser red eyes?

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did they just forget to tell us about the seven foot tall one?

Em: Well, so it just works out that it– They would assume it’s a lizard if almost half of the amphibians in that swamp are lizards.

Christine: I mean, yeah.

Em: Um, but one person even said that the Lizard Man is not real, and you can know that right away by just knowing that we’ve never seen a carcass of it, of one. Like it’s not like only one exists. It would be a whole like family of them or a nest of them, and–

Christine: I mean, but that’s the same argument as Bigfoot, you know.

Em: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Um, the best guess that I saw was somebody said there might be a random person who like is holding in captivity a, an emu or an ostrich because–

Christine: Oh! Ostriches? [laughs] Yeah, those are violent birds.

Em: They’re vi– [laughs] They’re violent.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, also they have a reptile-like face. They have scales. They walk upright. And they have three-toed feet.

Christine: Ohh. You sneaky, sneaky, Em didn’t mention that in our list of three-toed creatures ’cause you had to spring a surprise on me, and I got, I got got.

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine: I– That’s very interesting, ’cause my neighbors in Ohio had emu.

Em: I mean, your stepmom had a bear, so–

Christine: Like literally, exactly. And it was like, I don’t think you’re supposed to have a bunch of emu, but nobody’s doing anything about it?

Em: [laughs] Right.

Christine: I don’t know. But yeah, I guess I could totally see that.

Em: Um, so they think–

Christine: And they’re scaly.

Em: And they run off. They get skittish, so.

Christine: And they– And they’re strong, and they have three toes.

Em: Yeah. Um, and it would make sense that– I mean, if they really did get casts, plaster casts of a big ass three-toed foot, it could be an emu.

Christine: Yeah, and they’re like, “What the hell is this thing?” You know, and they don’t have them native obviously.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Wow. Interesting.

Em: Um, a final theory which, um, one of the locals believes– Maybe multiple locals believe this. There is a farmer out there named Brother Elmore. His name was Brother Elmore. And he was a butter bean farmer, fun fact.

Christine: [laughs] Mm-hmm.

Em: But he had people– He kept noticing that people were stealing out of his shed. And so one day to make sure no one was stealing anymore things out of his shed, he stayed overnight and basically did a stakeout in hopes to like catch the robber.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: And this happened to be on the same night that, back in 1988, where Chris’s tire blew out–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: –and he claims he saw the Lizard Man for the first time. So when Brother Elmore, who was waiting for the robbers to show up, when he heard a car stop in the middle of the swamp– Of course, we know Chris’s tire was blown out, but, um, he thought, “Oh, I found– The robbers just parked their car.”

Christine: Ohh.

Em: “Like I just, I just realized that there– that those might be the robbers.”

Christine: They’re here. Yeah.

Em: So he got out of his hiding spot and stood at the top of the hill and was looking down, and he thinks that Chris turned around at the wrong time and saw someone standing over the hill staring at him.

Christine: Ohh. Interesting.

Em: But he said, “I remember standing at the top of the hill, seeing him turn around in my direction, scream, and then get in the car and f– drive off.”

Christine: Oh, so he like says, says, says he witnessed it, and it w– Wow…

Em: He witnessed the other side of Chris freaking out. And he was like, “And by the way, I didn’t see a fucking Lizard Man.”

Christine: Nothing happened, yeah.

Em: Um, but he thinks maybe Chris turned around and what he thought were laser red eyes, I guess Brother Elmore wears glasses, and he was like maybe his own tail lights were reflecting in my glasses–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –which looked like laser red eyes.

Christine: And like there’s a figure up– And he looks seven feet tall, you know. I mean. Sure.

Em: Yeah. And then the, the car damage could have been like if he got really scared and ran off, maybe the jack was still attached to his car, and he just like fucked up his own car that way.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: Um, that doesn’t ex–

Christine: Maybe he like thought he was being attacked. Like, “It’s coming toward me!” And he’s trying to get it started, and he thinks– Like he’s driving through a bush, but he thinks it’s the thing attacking him, you know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Maybe he like totally got of sorts.

Em: Or maybe– And also on top of all that, maybe he really was tripping balls, and so he thought that something–

Christine: [laughs] He’s like, “This is crazy.”

Em: Now, obviously Chris isn’t around for us to ask. And in his story, he was up close and personal with this thing.

Christine: Aw.

Em: It like grabbed his door handle. It jumped on the roof.

Christine: Right, true. Yeah.

Em: He was swerving around. So he would have–

Christine: And he saw its toes.

Em: Saw its toes. Um, so we don’t know how true this is, but it’s another good theory of like there was someone who maybe was the Lizard Man all along.

Christine: Yeah, and it’s definitely interesting to hear another person’s take or perspective. Like another witness, you know.

Em: Mm-hmm. And, uh, I guess when the Elmore family heard about this new Lizard Man, and he was like, “Oh, shit. Maybe I was the Lizard Man, and like Chris just read the room wrong.”

Christine: [laughs] All along.

Em: They really leaned into it because they were like, “Well, as long as police are constantly like scanning this swamp area–“

Christine: Right.

Em: “–like there’s not gonna be any more robbers coming into my farm and stealing my shit.”

Christine: Oh, I guess so. Yeah.

Em: So it worked out for them anyway that it ended up causing people to be more protective of the area, and–

Christine: I see.

Em: So anyway, that’s one theory. Um, but a few years ago, the, uh, local museum, the South Carolina Cotton Museum, they hosted the very first Lizard Man festival and–

Christine: I was gonna ask if there was a festival.

Em: There’s obviously a festival.

Christine: Of course.

Em: There was a Lizard Man 5K race.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: There’s Lizard Man foods and gifts and–

Christine: Why must we always be running about a festival though? Like that’s the part I don’t agree with.

Em: Please. I know. I’m so over it. Um, there were food trucks – which is where I would’ve ran to.

Christine: [laughs] Yeah.

Em: And they– the museum s– I think, still has a Lizard Man exhibit with memorabilia from 1988.

Christine: That’s pretty cool.

Em: And since there have been– Since then there have been several other Lizard Man themed events. The town now has several Lizard Man mini statues for you to discover.

Christine: Cute.

Em: Um, and people have written songs about it. Uh, there are local restaurants that have Lizard Man themed drinks and foods.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: One of the– Or some of the drinks I really liked were: Bloody Lizards, which is, I guess, a strawberry daiquiri.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Lizard Blood, which is green-dyed wine.

Christine: Why are they all bloody? [laughs]

Em: And Lizard Man Blood, which–

Christine: What? All of them are about blood?

Em: Here’s my favorite thing about the Lizard Man Blood. Apparently, it’s dyed green, and it’s served to you in a Duke’s may– mayonnaise jar.

Christine: [laughs] Oh god! Please tell me they rinsed the shit out of that thing.

Em: I hope. Um, and then they– Apparently, there’s an action figure of the “Bishopville Lizard Man” that you can buy.

Christine: That’s fun.

Em: And, uh, it’s also part of that ca– the MetaZoo card collection that–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: He has one of his own cards. Uh, the town created a mascot called the Lee – Lee for the county, Lee County – the “Lee Litter Lizard,” and, uh, they say that he is the son of the Lizard Man. And he, quote, “wants you to know that the Lizard Man is tired of us trashing his swamp.” And so the Lee Litter Lizard is like to help you clean up the community.

Christine: Get out of my swamp! Yeah.

Em: Uh, the show has been mentioned– Or the, the Lizard Man has been mentioned on shows, including Destination Truth, Mysteries at the Museum, and Ancient Aliens. And, uh, there’s a book written about him called Lizard Man: The True Story of the Bishopville Monster by Lyle Blackburn, whose Instagram post that is.

Christine: Yeah! Oh, that’s why I know his name. I was like I’ve heard his name before.

Em: And, um, the last thing I’m gonna say is when asked about the Lizard Man, someone was quoted saying, “You should come to Bishopville yourself. Try to find the Lizard Man but just buy car insurance first.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: So that is the Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp.

Christine: I don’t know though ’cause I think car insurance says acts of God don’t count, and this sure seems like it would be some sort of act of God or S– Satan maybe.

Em: An act of a god, yeah.

Christine: Yeah, or a god, yeah. Um, wow. Good story, Em. Um–

Em: Thank you.

Christine: Reminds me of the Frog Man, but, you know, scarier.

Em: I like to think him and the Lizard Man are in a text with each other.

Christine: They have to be, right? Like they’ve got– Although, maybe it’s that thing where they’re like just ’cause we’re both x, y, and z doesn’t mean we’re friends.

Em: Don’t– Like they don’t define me. I shouldn’t be put in a box like this.

Christine: You know what I mean?

Em: I hate being put in a box.

Christine: Don’t put me in a box.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I’m so sorry I put you in a box, Lizard Man.

Em: They have a f– a frenemy situation where like they don’t want to be identified with each other, but then they realize they’re both pretty chill.

Christine: They don’t want it getting out.

Em: And they’re like, “Fuck.”

Christine: And they’re like, “Actually, everyone’s kinda right. Like we do have a lot in common.”

Em: For sure.

Christine: Yeah.

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Christine’s Story – Joanna Dennehy

Christine: So this is the story of Joanna Dennehy. And it is a wild ride. And it is one of these stories where you think, “What the fuck is wrong with people?” Okay?

Em: Oh.

Christine: 48-year-old. We’re gonna start with 48-year-old Kevin Lee. He was a friendly and charismatic man who made his living as a landlord. He owned multiple properties in and around Peterborough, a city of over 200,000 people in England, about two hours east from Birmingham by train. None of that really means anything to me, but I’m sure if you are from this area, maybe you’re just shaking your head at me.

Em: Sure.

Christine: Um, but he– This guy, Kevin Lee– He had a wife and two children, very close with his family. Um, his family and friends said his personality was “infectious” and filled their lives with laughter and excitement. Um, he was, uh, well-known as a local businessman, and he also was known– He, despite being, you know, a landlord which is like a kinda touchy subject, especially nowadays– Um, he was known to give housing to vulnerable people. And the word in the sources was vul– Word used was “vulnerable” quote unquote.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So I don’t– You know, we don’t know necessarily what that means, but, um, he was known to provide housing for vulnerable folks if they needed it. Um, his son, Dino, said that his dad lived by the ideal that everyone deserved the same treatment as anyone else, and he could– And he always assumed the best of anyone he met, so that was like part of his, um, just his whole persona. And when he came across someone who needed a break or needed some help, he wanted to be the one to give it to them. So, on Friday– Oh, I guess this is a good time for me to say this quote which like gave me goose cam when I, when I first heard it and also, uh, is some good foreshadowing. Dino, his son, said, “He tried to help everybody, but some people you just can’t help.”

Em: Oof.

Christine: Yeah. So, the date was Friday, March 29th, 2013, when firefighters responded to a car fire in a town called Yaxley, which was about five miles south of Peterborough. By the time the fire was out, the car was completely engulfed, burnt down to its frame. And it was soon identified as belonging to this guy, Kevin Lee, but nobody was inside the car when it burned. But that evening when Kevin didn’t return home, his wife, Cristina, reported him missing. Um, it was extremely unusual for him to be out of contact with her. And, uh, she knew something was terribly wrong. So she logged into their mobile phone account online and loo– which I th– Like this is the sleuthing I love, uh. This is a woman sleuthing. Ready? She logged into the mobile phone account online to look at like call records, and she starts calling every single person he had dialed or he had spoken to that day to figure out where he was.

Em: [laughs] That’s the most Christine thing ever except for actually using a phone.

Christine: [laughs] Except for the phone! I would just text everyone a really weird passive like text.

Em: That’s when you, you find the list, and then I call them.

Christine: That’s the one! And I leave the room ’cause I can’t hear the phone call either. I don’t want to be a part of the phone call.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah, it’s me. I will write like a full text, and then I’ll give it to you. And then you can just cut it down to the one sentence–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –that’s not like, “How’s your baby? Um, I have this silly little issue where my husband’s completely missing. It’s like no big deal, but if you’re around.”

Em: Mm-hmm. Christine: Um, yeah. So she is a much more badass person than I. ’Cause she calls every person on this list, and nobody knows where the hell Kevin is. The next morning, police respond to a call from a man out walking his dog who had found Kevin’s body lying in a field.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And, of course, this was the news Cristina and her family feared the most – that Kevin was dead. They found his remains in a soggy field that was really muddy. It was difficult to navigate. There were no houses nearby, so they couldn’t really ask around like if anyone had seen anything suspicious. But Kevin’s body had been– He’d been stabbed, they determined, multiple times in the chest and abdomen. He was face down. He was wearing a sequined dress that was pulled up above his waist to expose his body.

Em: Wow.

Christine: And the lead detective on the case immediately knew whoever did this was just trying to humiliate him one last time.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Like, in death. It was not something that he was known to own or wear. There was no connection to this dress.

Em: Okay. This wasn’t like a secret about identity or anything?

Christine: Mm-mmm. No.

Em: Okay.

Christine: This is, uh– This– Their gut instinct was pretty much right that this– whoever this was was trying to just humiliate him for the hell of it. The murder along with the car fire, of course, looked extremely personal like a– some sort of vendetta, but it seemed nobody that Kevin knew had a single bad thing to say about him. Like they couldn’t even find a hypothetical enemy among his, his acquaintances, even his own tenants. And that’s saying a lot for a landlord, I will add, by the way.

Em: Truly.

Christine: To have like no known enemies.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So with, with no distinct lead, police spoke to Cristina about the phone calls she had made the night prior, and they followed up on the owner of each phone line and the locations of cell phones Kevin was in contact with before he was reported missing. Just after 9 pm, one of the calls Cristina had made connected for just two seconds, and then the other line hung up. So when she was doing this research, she just like moved on and called the next number. But they were a little bit curious about this number that just hung up on her without saying anything. So those two seconds, when they went back, were enough to ping the phone’s location on nearby cell towers–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –placing the phone at the scene of the car fire in Yaxley.

Em: Ooh. Okay. Well, jackpot.

Christine: That’s on technology. Whoever Cristina called that night had probably been the one to set fire to her husband’s vehicle and, for that reason obviously, were also mor– most likely his killer. So from there, it was pretty simple to identify the cell phone’s owner. It was a woman named 30– No, her name was not 30. It was a 30-year-old woman named Joanna Dennehy. So using her phone records, they also found that Joanna was in frequent contact with a man named Gary Stretch, who was 47. Um, it seemed the two of them were like buddy-buddy. They were traveling together, and they seemed to have known that the police might be tracking their phones because they would turn them off regularly, so that their pings–

Em: Hm.

Christine: –they couldn’t be located. Um, they would only turn them on very briefly to make calls and then turn them back off as if they knew they were being followed.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: And every time the phones would turn on, they would be in the same location.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So as they’re tracking this Joanna and this guy named Gary, they’re like, “Okay, they’re together. They know we’re onto them, so they’re turning their phones off. This is a pretty good lead.” Joanna and Gary – their connection to Kevin was that they had occasionally worked for him doing tasks like collecting rent from the tenants because, apparently, Joanna was very good at dealing with “difficult” tenants, and she really liked this job–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –because she liked to intimidate and threaten people, uh, into handing over their rent money.

Em: [scoffs] Damn.

Christine: And so, it turns out Joanna actually was one of Kevin’s tenants herself, and she rented alongside an older housenate– housemate, 56-year-old John Chapman. So they arrive at the home. John wasn’t there. Outside in the yard, they find a discarded mattress, covered in blood.

Em: Ooh.

Christine: And they look around. They, they realize John was one of Kevin’s tenants police considered “vulnerable,” and those who knew him said he rarely left the house. So fearing the worst for John because he’s not in the house, and there’s a bloody mattress out back, and he lives with Joanna, who’s on the run right now–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –uh, they send photos of Joanna and Gary to the media. And if John were still alive by some miracle or by some chance, they needed to find him quickly. And if he were dead, it meant Joanna had just killed two people violently with no apparent motive and was now out in the world. So.

Em: Great. Okay.

Christine: It’s a really good setup they’re in. And they were certain that the tips would pour in once they posted photos of these two. Joanna had a very distinct star tattoo on her cheek, and it was just right there, so you could see it really clearly.

Em: Damn.

Christine: And Gary was 7 feet, 3 inches tall and had three toes– Wait a minute. No, I’m kidding.

Em: Hang on a second!

Christine: Um, and scaly skin.

Em: Oh my god. And a whole town loved him in South Carolina.

Christine: He has a festival, and he goes all the way over here to stir up some nonsense.

Em: He has his own action figure. That’s very weird.

Christine: Oh my god, can you believe it? Um, no. This guy was fucking 7 feet, 3 inches tall. And so–

Em: That’s a big boy. [laughs]

Christine: That’s a big boy. And I tell you this because they make a very conspicuous duo, right? One’s like this like attractive young woman with star tattoos on her face. The other one’s 7 feet tall.

Em: Yeah. Hard to miss.

Christine: Uh, hard to miss. But the city was pretty quiet over the Easter weekend. People were spending time offline with their families, so they may not have seen the photos or seen the alerts go out. And it wasn’t until several days into the investigation that police received information about a car registered to Joanna, and so they began searching for this car on CCTV. And this blew open their search. They identified the car and began following Joanna and Gary on security cameras around three counties. I don’t know if you know this, um, about England– I believe it’s the UK in general, but they’re very, um– They have very wide-reaching, uh, central TV recording setups.

Em: Mm.

Christine: That’s not the right word, but you know what I mean. Like they have a lot more, um– What are they called?

Em: CCTV? They have more cameras?

Christine: I guess? Is it just CCTV cameras?

Em: I guess? I don’t know.

Christine: What are the ones called that you’re just walking down the street, and there’s like a camera?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: CCTV? Okay. Um, yeah, so they have a lot more of those cameras, and so they’re able oftentimes to track people that way. Um, and there’s some pushback in the States for, you know, people’s privacy reasons, I guess, but, um, they have a much more expansive CCTV network over there. So they were able to follow Joanna and Gary on security cameras across three counties. The two of them were recorded shopping together, holding hands as if they’re just like out on an errand together.

Em: Hm.

Christine: Um, another man was recorded alongside them several nights earlier at a gas station. And they’re like, “Who’s this third guy?” He arrived in a separate vehicle, the one which belonged to Kevin Lee and was later set on fire, and filled up a fuel container before he left. Who he was and how he was involved was unknown.

Em: Okay.

Christine: They just knew he was probably getting the gasoline to burn this car. Eventually, police were essentially watching live footage, ’cause they’re just tracking Joanna and Gary on CCTV, and waiting for authorities in the other counties to go pick them up. So it’s like every time they leave like a county, it’s like, “Okay. Tell that county to go fucking get them.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: But, you know, it’s hard to kind of, I guess, nail down where they are, who can jump in at the right time.

Em: The goose chase is, uh, is not the easiest.

Christine: It’s a goose chase. It’s afoot. Yes. Um, so they waited for authorities in these other counties to pick them up, but Joanna and Gary remained at large. On Tuesday, April 2nd, a call came in from Hereford, which was three hours west of Peterborough. Joanna had stabbed two men in two separate violent attacks within ten minutes of each other.

Em: Damn!

Christine: 64-year-old Robin Bereza and 56-year-old John Rogers were both out walking their dogs when Gary and Joanna pulled over in Joanna’s car nearby. Gary waited inside. Joanna got out and just started stabbing the men at random.

Em: Jesus Christ. So I wonder what like that conversation in the car even is. Like, “Oh, pull over. I wanna fucking stab this one.”

Christine: Oh, I do know. I do know.

Em: Okay, okay.

Christine: And it is that exactly.

Em: Really?

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: It’s just, “Oh. Something just switched in my head. Time to kill.” It’s–

Christine: At one point, she said, “I want– I want one with a dog.”

Em: [gasps] Oh my god. So it’s really just that random.

Christine: Totally random. And then she took the dog with her.

Em: Wh– Okay.

Christine: She’s killed the man and then took the dog. Um, and they took the dog, and the dog apparently was just covered in blood and shaking because it just like witnessed its owner being fucking stabbed to death.

Em: Aw… Yeah.

Christine: I mean, it’s just crazy. So Joanna starts stabbing, and when she’s stabbing, um, like seemingly at random– She’s stabbing this one guy, this older man named John Rogers, and as she’s stabbing him and he’s basically begging her to stop–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –she pauses, says, “Look, you’re bleeding. Better do some more,” and continues to stab him.

Em: Oh my god. Oh my god. Wow, this is like out of– an out of a movie psychopath.

Christine: Right? Right! So police respond to the area, and they’re finally– They got her. They got Joanna surrounded. They’re very scared to approach the vehicle ’cause she’s clearly like–

Em: Ready to strike.

Christine: O-on a, on a roll, yeah. Exactly. And they’re surprised to see she’s just sitting there calmly in her vehicle, kinda smiling. And they’re like, “Uh, hello.” So she handed over the knife, um, just covered in blood. Uh, and it’s this huge horrible-looking knife. And on footage in the police station, which I watched all of that I could find, she was almost like delighted. Like she was acting like she was at a social event. And she walked in like all casual, and she was joking around with all the cops. She was so flirtatious like the whole time being like, “Oh my god.” Like to men and women being like, “You look so go– Like that just looks so good on you.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: And just, just so eerie and creepy because like knowing what she had just done and was just like–

Em: I mean, just twisted. Deranged.

Christine: Just deranged. Had taken like random lives like by very vicious, violent force and then is like, “Ha, ha. Things are silly.” Like– And she said something like, “I’m having a–“ Like, “How are you?” “Oh, I’m good, thanks.” And he goes, “Well, I’m glad you’re good,” or something as they’re like checking her into jail.

Em: [scoffs]

Christine: And she goes, “Would you be good if you were arrested for, uh, attempted murder and murder?” And he goes, “I mean, no. I wouldn’t be.” And then she goes, “But I’m smiling, see?” And it’s like, what the fuck, dude? Like–

Em: Oh my god. It’s so fucking twisted. It’s so–

Christine: And then she turns. She’s like, “Wait, what am I getting arrested for again?” And they’re like arres– “What am I being charged with again?” And they said, “Arrested murder and murder.” And she goes, “Eh, could be worse.” And it’s like, what are you trying to like pro– like do or prove? Like I don’t understa–

Em: What are you talking about? Is she trying to like charm her way out of jail or something?

Christine: I think so. And this one– [laughs] Oh god. She called this one cop like tiny, and that one’s like, “Oh my god, thank you. I’ve never heard that before.” I’m like, “Stop! Like why is everybody falling for this weird like, this weird like slimy like compliment thing?” I don’t know.

Em: Ew.

Christine: It was just so unsettling. She’s like flirting with everybody. Um, and she, she’d been arrested before. It’s not like she’s like new to a police station. It’s, it’s just bizarre. The whole thing’s bizarre.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: She joked around with one cop and said, “You’re a decent copper. I’m a crap killer, aren’t I?” And they said, “Well, you’ve been caught.” [laughs] So y– So you do the math.

Em: [laughs] Yeah. It’s like, what did you want me to say there? Like, yes? Yeah.

Christine: Yes. So when they told her sh–

Em: All of this is really fucked up, yeah.

Christine: Yeah. We’re so happy that you’re having a good fucking time. You just ruined so many families’ lives, but I’m glad you’re enjoying it. Um, so yeah. She said, “Could be worse.” And they’re like, “Ha-ha, okay.” But you know, when they’re in– when they’re interviewing her and she’s being this way, like I talked about last week, they’re, you know, understandably keeping her engaged, chit and chatting because they want her to keep talking. And so they lean into it a little bit, and she’s happily and calmly telling them about everything. She says that she killed five people. And, of course, they’re shocked because they only knew of three. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Okay.

Christine: And they went, “Uh-oh. We thought there were three we had you on, which already makes you a serial killer in this case.” But now, she’s saying, “Oh, I killed five.” And so they’re like, “We got Kevin, John, and Robin. Who are the other two?” So, remember, they were still missing John Chapman who was her housemate.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And they kind of suspected the worst because most people said like he never leaves his house. And then there’s this bloody mattress, and she lives with him and just killed five people.

Em: Yeah. There– I– Very– It’d be about a 1% chance he’s alive.

Christine: It’d be shocking that this is not one of the five, yeah. Oh, and by the way, the blood on the mattress, they determined to be his DNA match.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So it was his blood, so it was very unlikely he would’ve survived that amount of blood loss.

Em: Right.

Christine: But if he were another victim, which they assumed, that made four. So now they’re like, “Well, who– Who’s the fifth?” And she goes, “I’m not gonna tell you.” Oh my god.

Em: [scoffs]

Christine: On Wednesday, April 3rd, John Chapman’s remains were finally discovered in Thorney Dyke, roughly 20 mine– 20 minutes east of Peterborough. Like Kevin, he had been abandoned in a roadside– roadside ditch in a wet field. Um, but when they found him, there was another man’s body alongside him.

Em: Mm. Oof.

Christine: And this person had been there longer than the body of John.

Em: How much longer?

Christine: So they had finally found the fifth victim. It had been an extremely cold week, and the man’s remains were still intact. But police were able to identify him using his fingerprints. It was 31-year-old Lukasz Slaboszewski. Slaboszewski. I’m not very good at Polish names, I apologize. I have a lot of Polish family, and I’ve never picked up on it. Um, he was a Polish man who had settled in England nearly a decade ago, was known as being like just very sweet and kind of naive. And they kind of figured out she probably could have swindled him into this position. So Lukasz’s–

Em: Sure. Yeah, I mean it– Just like a simple flirting or something.

Christine: Yeah. Exactly. Lukasz’s death led investigators to another of Kevin’s properties, so this was another one of Kevin’s tenants, where they found two crime scenes where Kevin and Lukasz were killed. Ample evidence placed Joanna and Gary at both of the scenes. Gary had apparently helped Joanna clean up, although like not thoroughly or well, uh, before disposing of both men’s remains. And it was about a week apart, just to answer your earlier question of how long it had been.

Em: Sure.

Christine: So they essentially left one man there and then, a week later, brought another body there.

Em: Oy.

Christine: Like John, Lukasz had also been stabbed to death in a focused attack to his chest. They also discovered that Kevin had been having an affair with Joanna.

Em: Oh shit.

Christine: And that’s the landlord guy. And they believed Joanna had been manipulating her victims in order to get close enough to attack them right in the chest the way she had.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And when she had attacked the other men in the street, her blows were less central and focused, whereas with John, Lukasz, and Kevin, the three that she knew intimately, she was like immediately lethal and stabbed them directly in the chest. So basically, they were up, up very close and personal, and they figured she probably had somehow lured them in with her charm.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So the lead detective on the case did not think Joanna could have physically overpowered her victims, but she just made them trust her enough that it was easy to launch an attack and get close up. And although Joanna was in high spirits, as we discussed, at her arrest, she became a little more reserved in the official interrogation. When asked about the murders of all three men, she simply responded, “No comment,” to each charge.

Em: [sighs] Wow.

Christine: Robin and John, who were the two dog walkers who, by the way, were complete strangers– So they were the only two that were complete strangers. They both survived.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Yeah. Uh, John was stabbed 30-some times.

Em: How do you survive something like that? I mean–

Christine: Isn’t that shocking? And so–

Em: A-are they okay to, to this day? Are they okay?

Christine: I mean, I don’t, I don’t have any clue–

Em: Oof.

Christine: –because also, you know, one of them was much older. But yeah, they survived. I know earlier I even said stab– the dog saw him stabbed to death, and I misspoke there.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And I meant, you know, stabbed presumably to death but somehow not.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, and I know she took the dog, and she didn’t hurt the dog, so I’m assuming the dog went hopefully back to its rightful, you know, family.

Em: I hope so. But that– The poor trauma of that dog. Jesus.

Christine: I know, I know. And, um– Yikes. Yeah. So basically, they survived, and Joanna just had nothing to say about them. It just seemed like there was no motive. There was no reason. She just kept saying, “No comment.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: At her pre-trial hearing on November 18, 2013, Joanna stunned the court, which like obviously this was her intention, by pleading guilty to the charges against her even though she had fully told her lawyer and everyone else that she was going to trial with the case. Then her own lawyer was like totally taken aback when she goes, “I plead guilty.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And they’re like, “What?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So she just likes to fucking like run the narrative, you know, and control the situation no matter how or why or which way. Witnesses in the courtroom said her defense lawyer just looked completely shocked when she made this plea– or gave her plea. The lead detective on the case said he felt a sense of relief that there would be no trial because at least the victims’ families wouldn’t need to hear and see all these photos of the gore and like just hear h– you know, the horror of how she had killed these people and retraumatized all over. So they were, they were relieved. In 2014, Joanna Dennehy was sentenced to life in prison with no chance for release. And Gary, meanwhile, was tried as Joanna’s accomplice, because he disposed of the victims’ remains in the roadside ditches and tried to hep her cover up the crimes. His defense team argued that Gary was an unwilling accessory to the crimes. Remember, this guy, by the way, is like 7 foot 3, so it’s like okay, an unwilling accessory, like–

Em: I mean, you’re the Hulk.

Christine: Yeah, exactly. And they described him just as like “a nodding dog” who like just felt afraid for his life as Joanna like towed him across the country. But those who knew Gary were like, “Nah. He doesn’t do anything unless he wants to.” [laughs]

Em: Okay. Well then, that’ll do it.

Christine: Which, I was like, damn. Um, and they were like, “Yeah, not surprised, You know, he would– if he wants to do something, he does it. He wouldn’t be like bullied into it by some chick, you know.” Um, and on CCTV footage, by the way, he never appeared to be in any kind of duress or concern. They’re just holding hands, walking around.

Em: He– Yeah, they’re having a good time, having a good day, yeah.

Christine: He was sometimes alone in the vehicle too when Joanna went into stores on errands, and so he would just–

Em: He could have called the cops. He could have–

Christine: Exactly. He could’ve walked out of the car. No, he just sat there and waited for her. So he was sentenced to life in prison and required to serve a minimum of 19 years. And then there was the third mystery man. Remember the man who appeared on the gas station footage?

Em: Oh yeah.

Christine: And they said, “Who the hell is that guy?” So he was 36-year-old Leslie Layton, and he was involved in the burning of Kevin Lee’s car and the disposal of his remains. Despite his defense that Joanna manipulated him into his actions, Leslie was found guilty of quote “preventing the lawful burial” of two victims.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And then there was another man: 55-year-old Robert Moore, who was found guilty as an accessory for harboring Joanna and Gary while they were fugitives wanted on suspicion of murder. So she’s just leaving like this trail of like just carnage behind her like in waking life, in people’s nightmares. It’s just all bad.

Em: And not a, not a care at all.

Christine: Not a care.

Em: Not a care. Just, just victims and people and victims and people.

Christine: Yep. That’s all she’s about. Yep, it’s pretty shocking. Um, and, by the way, before I go forward with this, I wanna also, uh, add one thing about Leslie, which is that he was actually interviewed in a documentary about, about this case, about Joanna. And he describes being in the car with the two of them during the spree, the killing spree.

Em: Mm-hmm. Oh, wow.

Christine: And he basically– So his stance– I wanna just say like what he has claimed is that they appeared– Or he, he– They ask– invited him somewhere. Joanna invited him somewhere or his friend did. I think he was actually friends with Gary. Um, and Gary was like, “Oh, I met this new girl. Like, come over.” And he goes, “‘Okay.’ So I came over, and then all of a sudden, they’re like, ‘Get in the car. We’re on this killing spree.’”

Em: Oh shit.

Christine: And he claims he was like basically coerced into being part of it but was, you know, horrified the whole time. He’s actually the one who described how the dog was shaking and covered in blood and how he was freaking out.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And he didn’t know what to do. Um, he claims that, uh, she was– He’s the one who talked about the way that she picked victims. And then she said, “I want one with a dog.” And he was like, “Holy shit.” And she told Gary–

Em: So he, he has a better, he has a better chance of being like, “Well, I didn’t know what the fuck was going on.” Like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Yeah, okay.

Christine: And so– I mean, the way he presented it, I, at least, believed him somewhat. At least some of the story, I thought, was pretty reasonable, but, uh, he was at least, um, found guilty of preventing the lawful burial of two victims. I don’t know what his sentence was for that.

Em: Uh-huh.

Christine: But he was at least wrapped up in this to the point that he ended up going to jail for it.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, let’s see. What else?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Uh, just such a wake of damage this woman is leaving. She was designated a spree serial killer, and in a pre-trial psychological evaluation, it was reported that she lacked the capability to express remorse, which–

Em: Duh.

Christine: –not shocking. Yeah. Joanna’s younger sister, Maria, spoke to BBC journalists and described a very normal and happy childhood with her sister and their parents. She said they were very well cared for. Joanna had been a very good student, just loved to read, was very smart. Her parents said she was sensitive and kind, but as she get older, she just started to develop this– these like “outbursts” and started, um, getting in trouble at home, with the police. When she was 13, she was manipulated by an 18-year-old man to run away with him. And she ran away multiple times and then for good when she was 15. So it seems like she got into trouble. And I don’t know where the lack of remorse comes from.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It seems like when she was really little, that wasn’t an issue, so I don’t know.

Em: Do you know if, um, she ever killed before this or was this all– this all happened within the same week?

Christine: This, this was the first time she’d ever killed any– In fact, this was the first time she’d ever escalated from petty crime.

Em: That’s so weird. So weird like you would think that there’s a– there should be a buildup to this.

Christine: From petty crime like fucking shoplifting to spree serial killer.

Em: Yeah, something– I feel like something had to happen or there was just– Or she just snapped.

Christine: Doesn’t it feel like a mental break– like a mental break or like some sort of activation of a mental illness or something? Like I don’t know what happened.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But it, it did feel like [snaps fingers] boom.

Em: So weird.

Christine: But I will say even though she hadn’t killed before, as far as we know, she did like to be the kind of enforcer at the apartment building, and people were terrified of her. And she was very like violent and aggressive, so maybe she just had it in her this whole time.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But then she finally decided. I think the way that they phrase it is like she attacked and killed one guy and then like got almost this like rush from it.

Em: Bloodlust.

Christine: Yeah, bloodlust.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And so that’s kind of how she’s been described. I don’t know that there’s any real answer, but she definitely had been violent and kinda chaotic for a while. So, you know, the, the behavior was there, but I don’t know how it escalated so quickly.

Em: That’s wild. Mm.

Christine: Maria actually tracked Joanna down in adulthood to reconnect, but Joanna was struggling with substance use disorder and did not really seem to want to be in a relationship with her younger sister, so they actually never spoke again. Um, Joanna had two children who lived with their father at the time the murders took place, and he said he wasn’t surprised by her crimes.

Em: Damn. That’s fucking brutal.

Christine: Wow. Wow.

Em: Like also that makes me wonder like what is your custody situation with your kids?

Christine: Seri– Well, no, it says they lived with their father during the time of the crimes.

Em: Oh, oh, oh. Okay. So maybe–

Christine: Yeah. She, she was like–

Em: I mean, so then, so then wouldn’t there be maybe like a record of this somewhere else or of like at least her callousness and like not wanting to be–?

Christine: Yeah, yeah. I mean, she was like the enforcer at the apartment building. Like she was clearly unstable, had substance use disorder.

Em: Right, yeah. Had substance issues.

Christine: Of anger issues, you know. Drug issues.

Em: Do we know what substances?

Christine: Um, you know, I don’t know if–

Em: You don’t have to– I was just curious.

Christine: No, I don’t know. I don’t know.

Em: ’Cause I’m like maybe she just took too much one day, and it just really opened a whole new world for her.

Christine: Went on to like a DMT– one of those scary DMT overdoses you hear about where it’s like–

Em: Like the thing that our DARE program told us about, yeah.

Christine: Oh my god, yes, exactly. Like the thing where it said like– I’ve heard these episodes where it’s like, “And then for three months, I was living in an altered state,” and I was like, “Holy shit. I’m so scared of that. That’s– No, thank you. I don’t wanna be part of this.” Um.

Em: [laughs] I know. That’s what it sounds like.

Christine: I know. I know. So I don’t know what is going on, but she basically just did it and had a great time and said, “Yeah, I did it,” uh, and then said, “I’m guilty.” Just so weird. Um, so her, her ex who was the father of their two kids and said he wasn’t surprised by her crimes also said he felt lucky he wasn’t her victim and angry that she would put her children through all of that, in addition to all these other families and children she’s hurt.

Em: Mm. That’s a great point.

Christine: And John Chapman, um, who was the man that she, she lived with and, and killed. He was described by his family as “much-loved.” Um, he was considered like one of those just like very lovable older guys that people are just like, “He’s just a sweetheart and is shy and whatever.” And nobody– And he had lost his wife and become very introverted and just stayed indoors a lot. And it’s like why of all people, you know? Not that anybody deserves, obviously, but it’s like–

Em: I know, but this is just like especially heartbreaking.

Christine: It just feels like a slap in the face. ‘Cause everyone knew him, and everyone knew her. And it’s like– It wasn’t– This one wasn’t random. It was very, you know, intentional and–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Still. Still, she didn’t care at all. Uh, Lukasz Slaboszewski was survived by both of his parents and two sisters who described him as “the joker of the family,” very kind, funny. Um, they believe what happened is that she kinda convinced him she wanted to be his girlfriend.

Em: Totally.

Christine: He had apparently told his sister he had met a really nice girl.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: And basically, she lured him to her place, and, uh, that was that.

Em: That’s so sad.

Christine: It’s so sad. Um, like John’s family, they were left– Uh, Lukasz’s family was wr– left wrestling with a loss that just made no sense. Um, just out of the blue, you know. So Joanna Dennehy is actually often regarded as the UK’s most notorious female killer who was noted to always want a sense of control over every situation, I mean, even in her own court case. A detective on her case believes she pled guilty just to have like this last final say in life and a chance to kind of shock people one more time before prison. Uh, but in prison, she no longer has control – thank god – over the lives of the people she affected most and hurt the most. Um, she left a lot of horror and pain in her wake, um, but everyone she hurt has been remembered fondly in tributes, memorials, um, as loving and well-loved people. And I think, um, you know at least–

Em: I wonder–

Christine: –they’re focusing on that and not on how they ended their lives unfortunately.

Em: Maybe I’m too deep into– Or I’m thinking too deeply, but like I wonder if she could sense the kindness in all these people because it seems like she only picked people who like–

Christine: Well, I think there’s a sense that some people especially with sociopathic tendencies– Like they can smell vulnerability, you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And people, people who are targeting others often can sense that opening, that weakness, that– And it’s not necessarily a weakness, but it’s perceived as a weakness because they’re able to like worm their way in.

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine: Um. So yeah, you’re probably right. Like It’s probably like a vulnerability, a kindness–

Em: Kindness,

Christine: –like inviting you in, like trusting you right away. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. Yeah.

Christine: Well, that’s our show, folks!

Em: Jesus.

Christine: Thank you for listening. I’ve barely had half my Dr. Pepper. I gotta get back in on it. Um, this is– This has been And That’s Why We Drink.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: A live performance for you to enjoy. Uh, thank you for listening, folks. If you want to come to our last tour ever– No, I’m kidding! I’m kidding. I’m kidding. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: If you want to come to our shows, please visit andthatswhywedrink.com/live. We love touring, despite that weird long conversation at the beginning. I fucking love it. It’s the best to see everybody in person. Um, and we have so many fun shows coming up in the spring where we’re taking our tour which has been out of control wild and hilarious and fun. Um, and you can also go get our merch at atwwdmerch.com. We also have our books available on the website. They link there. Um, and we can also be found on socials @atwwdpodcast. So that’s that.

Em: And you can follow me on my solo tour apparently in fall 2025 where I don’t know what I’m doing. But, um–

Christine: I can’t wait. I can’t wait to just take 10% and be your manager.

Em: If you’re trying to just, uh–

Christine: Maggie’s gonna kill me today, I think. She’s not gonna like this at all.

Em: [laughs] We don’t have to tell her for a while. Um.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: We don’t have to tell her until she says, “Oh, we’re looking at new cities. Where do you want to go?” And then we go, [sing-song] “Nowhere.”

Christine: And we say, [sing-song] “You didn’t hear the episode. You better listen to 413.”

Em: And I’ll go, “Oh, you know what city we should really go to? Alaska.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And then she’s gonna go, “Mm, I don’t know about that. Maybe– I don’t know–“

Christine: And you say, “Okay, how about Nebraska and South Dakota?” And she’s gonna go, “Wow.”

Em: And also it’s only gonna be me, and also the show won’t be happening either.

Christine: There won’t be a show. But there will be a mall and maybe some signed T-shirts.

Em: Yeah! That’s gre– I would love to sign a T-shirt.

Christine: What could go wrong?

Em: I don’t know. I don’t kno– But anyway, catch me in ‘braska. Uh–

Christine: You’ll go to all the places that we’ll never go on tour, you know.

Em: Yeah, exactly. So it’ll be like c– It’ll be like covering the rest of the, the map.

Christine: Aw, I love it.

Em: The Rest of the Map Tour. That’s what I’ll call it.

Christine: I’ll just be in like your ear.

Em: Thank you.

Christine: On, on a little headpiece.

Em: I– You know, that’s all I ever wanted is to just keep hearing your voice. It’s just my dream.

Christine: Behind the scenes. I know, right? And that’s all I’ve ever wanted is for somebody to just wanna keep hearing my voice, so it sounds like we found the perfect match.

Em: How is– Where is your D. Peppy? I gotta see the level your D. Peppy’s at.

Christine: Oh. I did just chug a bunch of it afterward. And I only got a medium.

Em: Oh good.

Christine: I usually get like the largest possible ’cause I like to just hold a large beverage.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: But I was like, “You know, I think, uh, I think a medium’s enough.”

Em: I’m gonna be realistic today.

Christine: Yeah. I don’t know.

Em: What do you have planned for the rest of the day?

Christine: Oh, thank you for asking. It’s a rainy day, and I really need to clean up my house and finish decorating for Christmas!

Em: Oh! I can’t believe this fucking daylight savings time. I don’t mean to sound like every other person on earth, but it’s literally 3 pm.

Christine: Hot take.

Em: And the sun has been– It’s like the sun is gone.

Christine: I mean, I live on– in– on the– in EST, so to me that’s–

Em: I’m not used to it though. I’m used to like the sun starting to set at the– at like maybe 5.

Christine: I– Well, this is what I tell you is that I get really anxious and then I get really scared and sad. ’Cause the sun goes down so early, and I feel like I’m missing the day.

Em: I get it now because– I’m trying to remember. I don’t think– Did it– Was it always like this? ’Cause I’m thinking at 3 o’clock, if I were getting out of high school, I would still be at sch– I would have to go do tennis right now.

Christine: Also my friend like– I think maybe it’s just very cloudy out there. It should not be nighttime at 3pm. Unless it’s like some sort of purge situation.

Em: It– I– It doe– It doesn't show.

Christine: It’s literally perfectly light out there.

Em: No, it’s not showing right.

Christine: I can see the trees.

Em: I’ll send you a picture on my phone so you know what I’m talking about. Um.

Christine: [laughs] I mean, you want to see mine? It’s not much better.

Em: Yeah! I do. You know–

Christine: It looks the same.

Em: Show me.

Christine: I mean, it’s a really big mess over there, please don’t judge me.

Em: I wanna see!

Christine: Everybody. Oh god, it’s actually gonna be really bad.

Em: Yes!

Christine: No.

Em: We watch, and we judge.

Christine: Whee! Oh. Well, it’s hard to see.

Em: See! That’s what I’m saying. It’s hard to see. But I trust you that it’s darker than that.

Christine: Well, it’s– Oh god, that’s a mess. Do you see my Zak Bagans cut-out? I mean, not cut-out, um–

Em: I love him.

Christine: Crochet. Someone made that. Ooh! Okay, I think I just broke my Sony camcorder. Oh well. Worth it! To show you the window of how also it looks the exact same here as it does there. Just that gloomy dreary bleh.

Em: I love it. I just feel like I’m supposed to be doing something else. Anyway, uh, we are supposed to be doing something else. We’re supposed to go to Patreon and chat even more.

Christine: Yeah! We can just keep talking. Alright. We’re gonna go yap at Patreon, so come to patreon.com/atwwdpodcast, I think, and you can find us there.