[intro music]
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: It's And That's Why We Drink. And for us, it... This is the first episode of 2024, maybe not for your ears, but for our mouths. And, uh, new year, new us. Just kidding. Worse us. Well, I guess new, but it'll just be worse.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: New and not improved. Umm...
Em Schulz: New and more disappointing than ever.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Side note, Em, umm, when you tested your mic, you talked normal, and then when we started the episode, you started shouting. So it is pretty damn loud. I don't know if...
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: I think you're blowing out the audio levels, which again, new and the same.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Wow, that's so much better.
Em Schulz: Okay. Is it better? Okay. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Em apparently had to lower their volume to almost zero to get it to be like listenable. So I hope it actually works for you, folks. We're still... How many... This is like our seven... We're almost seven years in here and we're still just not able to fucking do a podcast.
Em Schulz: I think seven years in, I'm just amazed that I'm still so fucking loud. I really...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, that part doesn't surprise me, but the rest, maybe a little bit. I thought we would've learned.
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. Well, trying that again. Happy 2024, Christine. [laughter] Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Same to you, my friend. How are you?
Em Schulz: I, I... Apparently, I'm louder than ever. So I'm doing good. [laughter] Uh, we have to be on a stage in like a casual 10 days... Nine days, actually.
Christine Schiefer: Cool, cool.
Em Schulz: Umm, my gut is nonexistent. She has left the building.
Christine Schiefer: She has left.
Em Schulz: Vacated the premises.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, she's carpetbagged her way up to the north.
Em Schulz: I, I truly... If I think long enough about it, I will throw up. So...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I actually... You're making me really nauseated and, umm, I'd like you to stop.
Em Schulz: Speaking of nauseated, you seem a little there... I've been told that I really need to ask you why you drink and it sounded so stressful.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just... You know when you're, as Em calls it...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: A slight menty B.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, now I'm like on the verge of crying... Like, what is wrong with me?
Em Schulz: Oh, oh my God. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like having uh, one of those weeks where I'm just like questioning my entire uh, you know, maybe not identity, but like self-worth and, umm...
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Well, so I, umm, I lost my wallet again. Umm...
Em Schulz: Girl, well, see, even your own wallet doesn't want you to know who you are.
Christine Schiefer: I know. In a gas station...
Em Schulz: Keeps, keeps taking your ID away.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Umm, just vanished. Umm, had a little menty B because, umm, I just was like, "Why am I like this?" And this was probably the fifth time in the last few months. No, in the last year. It was like the fifth time of 2023 that I like fully lost something important. Like, I had just gotten a brand new license because I lost the one before that. And then I had gotten a new passport 'cause I lost the one before that. So it was like, probably the fifth time I've lost something like incredibly important, umm...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: In that, just in that year. And I had a slight like meltdown and was like, "Why am I like this?" I was on the floor of my car like looking for my wallet. Umm, and I had a slight... Uh, and everyone in my family was very kind to me about it like, you know, just very reassuring. But I was like, "How can... " I was like, "Blaise, how can you live with someone like this?" Like, I just had a full-on like crisis. And, umm, my mom walks in the side door to like, uh, help with Leona and I said... I was just like in tears, which is rare now that I'm on this high dose of Zoloft. And she said, "What happened?" and I said, "I lost my wallet again." And she said, "No, you didn't." And I said, "What's wrong with me?" And she said, "ADHD." And I went...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "What?" And she was like, "Well, of course." And I was like... I feel like it's that gaslighting thing parents do. I love you, mom, but like, I feel like growing up, I was always given the messaging like, "ADHD is not real, you know? It's just a thing people say when their kids are a little woo-hoo, you know, like all over the piper, you know."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like that was the messaging I got from like, most of the adults in my life. And so when she said that, I was like, "What? Like coming from you... " Like, I would never have even brought up the subject in front of my mother, and then she just like spits it out and is like, "Well, duh." And I was like, "Am I... " Like, anyway, I just feel really, umm, un... I just don't feel good. And also, umm, my TikTok got hacked by this guy in, in Iraq, in Baghdad, and he has been bullying me all week, okay? And then...
Em Schulz: All week?
Christine Schiefer: All week. And then he sends his friends to bully me and they like...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. He's like demanding $850 for my account. And then he said, "Oh, my friend is gonna reach out to you." My friend. It's like probably him on another fucking account, okay.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And then his friend reaches out and his name is Spy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, "Okay. Okay now." And so I was just really frustrated because like, I don't really care about, you know, social media, but I'm like, I had some fun videos I wanted to post of Leona, and I had some fun ideas. My sister and I like did our annual cookie-baking thing where we make like a video of our worst cookie. Like... And he deleted everybody I was following, which is like thousands of people. He deleted all my videos, all my content, went through my messages, messaged you...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And like random people, was like sexting people. I was just like uh... It felt so... And then I lost my wallet. So I'm like, "Does... Everybody just take my identity, I guess. I don't have it anymore. It's not mine... "
Em Schulz: Right, right, right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Apparently. Oh, and so... Like, this is how bad things have gotten this week. Umm, I'm drinking herbal tea.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think I've ever drank herbal tea in my life.
Em Schulz: Like for fun?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 'Cause I just need to like calm the fuck down, okay. And so I'm drinking it out of my Chip coffee mug, which...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I have not really gotten to show off yet and I feel bad because, umm, this...
Em Schulz: I love that... Like, coffee, coffee.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And it... That's what it's usually for, right? Like it's always my go-to coffee mug, obviously. But today I was like, "Chip, don't even say anything. I'm putting peppermint in you. Relax. Okay?" And so it's covered in... So it's from Disgruntled Pelican on, umm, on Twitter is their username, uh, slash, uh, uh, Cry like Kermit, I think spelled like, umm, Jenna Marble's dog. Relatable.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but so this mug and I, I've like never really given a shoutout and I forgot who sent it. So they finally tweeted and Megan, our social media person, showed me and I was like, "Okay. Good. I can finally give it a shoutout and with the proper recognition." But it is literally like a collage of Chip coffee on a mug.
Em Schulz: That's amazing.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, there's one in, of him in a tiara. I just... I don't know if they made it, if they bought it, but it's just my favorite thing. But the fact that I'm drinking peppermint tea, having a menty B with Chip coffee, it's time, it's...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Lost your identity.
Christine Schiefer: I lost my identity in a Cumberland Farms gas station. That part doesn't rhyme. But, umm, my... Oh, this is the part that I promised my mother-in-law. She probably is like... Doesn't mean she wants it, but I promised her that I would give her a little shoutout because she drove straight to that... It was in Connecticut, thank God. Uh, she drove straight to that Cumberland Farms and got my wallet and...
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
Christine Schiefer: Has shipped it to me. Like I found out it was there today, this morning. She went there immediately and has already shipped it to me and I'm like...
Em Schulz: Well, a wallet is also so much scarier than just your driver's license. It's like... I mean, that's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean it's, it's...
Em Schulz: Everything.
Christine Schiefer: Everything but my social security card 'cause I finally took that out after everyone bitched to me...
Em Schulz: 'Cause that's still glued to the bottom of a bar floor somewhere.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I like how I say I took that out. It's like, no, I dropped it and it got stuck to a...
Em Schulz: You dropped it in a different gas station.
Christine Schiefer: Sticky floor. Yeah. Umm, and, you know, I was thinking about why... I knew it was in that Cumberland Farms 'cause I remember being in the, in the stall with Leona after changing her diaper and like I had to pee and she goes, "Hee-hee," which is what she says before she does something like not good, right? So she... I know. It's, it's hilarious until, it's not... Until it takes place in a parking lot. And then you're like, "Oh, okay." [laughter] Umm, so she goes, "Hee-hee," and I was like... I'm... My pants are down. I'm peeing in a public place. And so she goes, "Hee-hee," and like tries to run under the stall door. And so I was like, "Ah!" And so I panicked, you know. And so that's where I left it on top of the toilet paper thing. Umm, anyway, so it's just been one of those weeks, umm, where I've just been like trying my best. And, you know, we're all sick, Leona... Just everything seems to be chaotic. And then every time I think about our tour coming up, I'm like, [laughter] "That's funny." Umm, so anyway, I just blocked out the last 10 minutes. But, uh, how are you today?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Umm, I am okay. I, I really... My only stress left is this, is the tour. I'm trying to put a good spin on it. It's not totally working. I am very, very excited. Like in a, how lucky am I that this is my career kinda way.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's, it's, it's a hard thing to explain to people because it... Like, we don't wanna sound like we're...
Em Schulz: Not grateful.
Christine Schiefer: Ungrateful or don't wanna do it. Like we beg for these cities. Like we want to do it. It's just when it happens, it's so petrifying. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I just... I, I just... And also all my stupid health stuff, I just don't know like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I just had the additional anxiety of like, uh, I have some sort of undiagnosed fainting goat syndrome where like it feels like I'm just passing out for no reason. And maybe it's anxiety-linked. And if it's anxiety-linked, then I'm definitely more likely to do it on stage.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Then it's just like building on itself, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I, uh... Yeah, I just... I'm just very nervous about the outcome. I know, I know within 10 minutes of being on stage, I'm gonna be having the best time of my life.
Christine Schiefer: That's the thing is like we immediately... The adrenaline kind of kicks in and you're like, "Oh, I know how to do this." And it's like muscle memory...
Em Schulz: I feel total... And also, like this is where I... Like we really don't give our like audience enough of a shoutout, but like every audience we've ever had has been so kind and wonderful and like if one of us were to have like an anxiety attack on stage like with a spotlight on us...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Everyone would be so... I got... I have no doubt that people would be so kind, but...
Christine Schiefer: Like honestly, part of me wants to like somehow trigger one for you.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I can do it for myself if you want. Umm...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that'd be better.
Christine Schiefer: It's like we might get more Patreon subscribers.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding. Umm, I'm just kidding. But yeah, there... Well, you know what, I was just thinking about too, Em, is like my Crohn's, which is very much, umm, also anxiety-related or just like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Oh, I feel like such a piece of shit complaining to you and you literally have Crohn's.
Christine Schiefer: Mental... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't... No, no, no. I'm just saying, you know, it's a... It's like a similar concept where it's like, well, if you're not well, it... Like your body gets inflamed or whatever and freaks out. And it's like same idea, of course, anxiety does not help the situation. And Em has always said to me, "If you ever have to just get up and run to the bathroom, like do not fuckin' worry, just do it." And I've always been like, "Oh yeah, totally. That'll never happen." And then like when we were recording last week, I was like, "Bye, I'm gonna peace out," or whenever that was. Umm, and I was like, "Em, that's literally never happened to me where I'm like, 'Okay, I'm really not well.'" And so I'm like, if that... Now I'm like, "Oh my God, that does happen, I guess." So if it does happen, basically I'm saying there's a chance for either one of us to just drop.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay? We're old, we're sick, we're sickly.
Em Schulz: And like... And I... I... [laughter] It's like we're two old crusty dogs walking onto the stage.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And they're always shocked when we're still around. Like every holiday, they're like, "Well, they're... They made the Christmas card. They must be hanging on by a thread."
Em Schulz: And when I sleep, everyone... When I sleep, everyone's like, "Are they breathing? Are you... Are you sure they're okay?"
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know, I know. Like check, like put a finger under the nose, make sure...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, if something happens... It's so wild because I was trying to explain it to my therapist. God bless her. She... I don't know if she understands the dynamic entirely because my anxiety is so unfounded where like... I mean, like it is justified in some ways, but also the, the calling me out of being like, well, if it were to happen, what would, what would go wrong after that? And like, honestly, nothing would go wrong...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Because our audience is understanding. You're understanding. Like, we would figure it out. It would be handled, whatever. But then she even said like, "What about your co-host? Do you think your co-host would care?" And I was like, "I literally know my co-host wouldn't get... Would, would not care."
Christine Schiefer: Like, "She's a huge bitch."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, but like, you would not care. Like I am in such good hands, and so like all my fears...
Christine Schiefer: I would care like very much about you, but not about like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, like...
Christine Schiefer: Leaving stage. Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: And same thing for me, it's just so wild that I still have all these anxieties even though... I must have some sort of linked like inner trauma about like thinking I'm gonna get in trouble or something. I don't know, but it's...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean honestly, I've, I've, I've delved into a few things regarding my like bizarre aversion to the phone and I've linked it to some very bizarre specific things that have been like, oh, you know? So maybe that is something to like eventually, umm, explore.
Em Schulz: Jordan, are you listening? Write that down.
Christine Schiefer: Jordan, are you? Because... Does Jordan listen? That would be...
Em Schulz: I don't know. I really hope to God not. I really... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I... My therapist once told me... Who, by the way, she ghosted me and I think she hated me, but that's probably... Anyway, umm, so I need a new one. Anybody? Anybody? Okay. So Jordan, are you listening? Can I be... Can I work with you...
Em Schulz: Well, so Jordan... I mean, Jordan follows me on TikTok, which terrifies me. Or I don't know if she...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know if she follows me, but we found each other on TikTok. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh that's right. I was like, "Em, how do you find a good therapist?" You're like, "On TikTok." And I was like, "Well, cool. Let's see if Northern Kentucky, uh, therapists, any of them stand out on TikTok. We'll find out."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I, uh... Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm doing I think a lot better than you are. I have not had a total mental breakdown yet. I have cried a lot, but, umm, it hasn't been because of a mental breakdown. It's been like just getting overwhelmed and then having to go take a depression nap and then I'm fine.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good. I mean, I'm glad you at least know how to recover for your, for your own sake.
Em Schulz: How was your Christmas? What did... I know, this is like, uh, a while ago now for listeners, but for me, what did you get for Christmas? What was one of your favorite gifts?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Well, thank you for asking. It was really lovely. We did the... This is actually... This 2023 was the first time in my life I've done like a Christmas morning, like wake up...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: With presents under the tree, because in Europe, or at least in Germany, you celebrate on the 24th. And so...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, what we did was like really ideal. We went to my mom's house for Christmas Eve and did like our old school like family tradition. And she plays this weird children's choir from Germany on a seat... On my sister's Hello Kitty boombox. And my mom and my sister cry inexplicably. And then we all like march into the room... It's like very bizarre, now that I say it out loud, but, umm...
Em Schulz: It does sound... That sounds like something you tell Jordan, you know?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Jordan, help. Jordan, I don't even have a TikTok for you to follow. And I don't have a Twitter because that also got taken away. So you know what? I don't know. I don't know how I'm ever gonna find help, mental health help. Okay? Umm, but yeah, so we did that on Christmas Eve, which was fun 'cause Leona got to like run around. We had, you know, wine. We had built-in babysitters, [laughter] like six adults running around. Umm, so it was great. And then we went home, got to sleep till... Leona slept till past 9:00 AM, like, it's like she's a teenager...
Em Schulz: I love it.
Christine Schiefer: On Christmas day. I was like, "Fuck, yeah." So we got to sleep in. Unfortunately, she was sick and she was like not interested in the presents until we slowly started being like, "What do you think's in this one?" But then every time she opened one, she was like, "I just wanna play with this. Open it."
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: And which I understand and I'm like, "I appreciate that you're like taking the time." 'Cause I imagine in the next couple years it'll just be like rip everything open, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But it was really fun to like get, give her gifts this year that were like... That she could actually understand and appreciate that they were like presents.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and you know, I, I am trying to figure out how the good old [0:16:11.2] ____ will work next year. We were lucky to kind of not have to deal with that this year. Umm, maybe we'll do a... Lean into Krampus. No clue. We'll figure it out. But, uh, yeah, so it was really nice. And, umm, Blaise got me some really lovely presents. And he bought me a fricking Dyson Airwrap and I was like, "Hello? That was not... That was nice."
Em Schulz: So that's your favorite Christmas gift, you think?
Christine Schiefer: That was like my big, big gift, right? Like, I was like, "Woah, I didn't expect that." Umm...
Em Schulz: Nice.
Christine Schiefer: I got him a composter.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, umm, but yeah, it was very nice. And I was like... And he goes, "Do you want one of these?" And I was like, "I think every like... "
Em Schulz: Human being.
Christine Schiefer: "Female on TikTok... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Who has long hair and, you know, wants one of these." But I was like, I... I... It's something I never ever would've bought for myself, but I've always just like watched the little tutorials. So I felt very, umm... That was like a... That was a very big surprise. I was very, umm, excited about that. And then the rest was just cute little stuff. He got me, umm, uh, a garlic chopper that looks like a vampire... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To grind garlic. Like just silly fun stuff that's like, I don't know, that just makes us think of each other. So it was really special and we had a good time. And then yesterday was his birthday and we had a great time. And in... On New Year's Eve, we were in uh, uh, Quality Inn, umm, in Canton, Ohio, or Youngstown, Ohio. So, you know, it... We can't celebrate it all, but, uh, we try our best. So how was your Christmas, Em?
Em Schulz: Umm, it was good. I... This was the first Christmas where a majority of people I did not get gifts for, and that itself was a gift. Umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Indeed. Yeah, it sounds like it.
Em Schulz: I, I feel like I got a lot of clothes this year. I got, uh... My mom got me and Allison like play tickets, like play season tickets.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fun.
Em Schulz: Umm, uh, I got a tie that I wanted.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: I... Which I never wear ties. I just wanted it [0:18:05.2] ____.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, put it on.
Em Schulz: It has a... It has DeLoreans all over it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's very fun.
Em Schulz: Umm, yeah, it was, it was pretty nice. It was low-key. Umm, I'm exchanging more gifts tonight. My friend Cole, who you know...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, you might know as Hot Cole, because that's usually how I reference him to people because...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: He's weirdly good-looking.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He like freakishly so, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He... He's a very handsome... He's my ex-boyfriend also, so like, careful.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, no big deal. Em, Em dumped him. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I did dump him.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's a point of pride.
Em Schulz: Which like in some, in some spaces, I feel like that's my only power move I have left to play. I'm like, [laughter] like, "Well, I dumped a hot guy, so... " Umm, him and I are having a sleepover tonight, so you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what could happen?
Em Schulz: The romance...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: The romance isn't over yet, everybody.
Christine Schiefer: The romance is still alive. I love that.
Em Schulz: But I think we're... I think we're exchanging gifts. We're going out to dinner later. We... When we were dating, every single date was at Olive Garden because when you're 14, Olive Garden is like the...
Christine Schiefer: Well, the pinnacle...
Em Schulz: The pinnacle.
Christine Schiefer: Of class, indeed.
Em Schulz: And so apparently we're actually reliving our dates and we're going to Olive Garden tonight, and then we're coming back to my house to watch TV. So...
Christine Schiefer: My God, maybe he's gonna propose. Are you gonna put out? This is gonna be so fun for me to live vicariously.
Em Schulz: You know, he is even hotter than he was when we were dating, so...
Christine Schiefer: Well, shit. So that actually... So he might win that power play because like, you dumped him, but now he's even hotter. So like, actually, I'm sorry to say, that might not be your win anymore.
Em Schulz: I mean, I, I, I might give him a little snuggle, I think, you know? We'll see where, where the, where the night takes us.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's cute.
Em Schulz: But I think snuggling is about as far as it'll get. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: That's pretty far.
Em Schulz: It's pretty far. I mean, I'm a pretty, pretty lucky little person to be able to do that.
Christine Schiefer: You sure are. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, but, uh... I mean if, if there's such a thing as being even gayer than me, it's him. So I think that, uh, we're...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, folks, that's why we're... That's why the joke is fun. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. We're both, we're both queer.
Christine Schiefer: To, to, to clarify, neither of them are even remotely interested in the other one in that way. So it's fun to poke fun...
Em Schulz: No, no, no. Now, now it's just... It's platonic snuggles. You, you understand.
Christine Schiefer: It's just garlic bread on garlic bread on garlic bread.
Em Schulz: He is gonna pour Pasta e fagioli all over me and, you know, it might get a little crazy. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, that's, that's...
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: My final Christmas gift is getting to hang out all night with, uh, a handsome man.
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yeah. Unlimited breadsticks, baby. Umm...
Em Schulz: I, I didn't mean to like weirdly just brag about him the whole time. I was trying to say I'm... I might be getting more gifts later 'cause I think we're exchanging presents.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I can't wait to see what it is. Umm, and can I just throw one thing out before I forget?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is, uh, just like a fun fact for you all. Umm, so Alexander, my brother, as many of you may know as Xandy, one Christmas, like one Leona's Christmas because he got her a little vet, like a veterinarian kit, and it has like a little puppy and like a little, you know? And like, I want, as a kid, wanted to be a doctor or a vet. And she took that stethoscope and has not put it down since Christmas Eve.
Em Schulz: Aww. Blaise must be so proud.
Christine Schiefer: And she wants... Oh my God, like everyone in Blaise's family, his mom's a nurse, his brother's a PA, uh, his brother's wife's a doctor, like everyone's in the medical field and she runs around with this stethoscope and like, I don't know where she comes up with this stuff, probably TV, okay? But she runs up and she goes, "Breathe in, and out," and like puts it on our chest. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And then she goes, "You're all better." And she ran around and did that to like every pet, every human, every, uh, inanimate object. And so I was just like very... 'Cause that was me as a kid. I always had like a little, a little stethoscope, little shot...
Em Schulz: Well, you know... You know who's about to get healed the fuck up next week is gonna... Because we're all gonna be together?
Christine Schiefer: Yes! Oh my God.
Em Schulz: It's, it's gonna be Eva. Because Leona and Eva have a very interesting best friendship. And I think Eva, you're about to play doctor with Leona quite a lot. It's gonna be very precious.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. Yeah, you're gonna all get a lot of check-ups. And she checks on people's tummies a lot.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, which is very sweet. So...
Em Schulz: Eva, get ready to breathe in and out. Be careful.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, get ready. Practice. Umm, which actually is... Eva says, "Yes, fix my tummy." Umm, it does weirdly feel better. I think it's probably just that you're like, "Oh, that's cute," and you like forget about your many aches and pains for a moment. But...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: It does actually work. So yeah. Anyway, so thank you...
Em Schulz: She's got the touch.
Christine Schiefer: Xandy. And, uh, Leona literally has never really attached to a stuffed animal, but she takes a stethoscope to bed every single night. So, you know what? I'll take it.
Em Schulz: Uh, it's, it's every Jewish mother's dream to... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, right? I'm like, listen, there's worse things to be...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. [laughter] Well, okay. We've literally talked for 26 minutes, 27 minutes. Wow. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you shouted for part of it, so.
Em Schulz: Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. Oh yeah. Also, I have a never ending sinus infection. The end.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. You made me feel a little better about myself. So that's what... That's why I drink today.
Christine Schiefer: That's all I want to do.
Em Schulz: Umm, and are you drinking anything? I'm drinking a D-Peppy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm drinking a fucking herbal tea.
Em Schulz: Oh, right. Yes, yes, it's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. Sorry to yell. I've just...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes I get a little bit over, overstimulated.
Em Schulz: It's okay. Call Leona, Dr. Leona, she'll have you breathe in, breathe out.
Christine Schiefer: Fix my nervous system. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. I've got my little story for you today, Christine. It is the mysterious case of...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: The Bennington Triangle...
Christine Schiefer: [0:23:30.1] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Angle, angle, angle, angle.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. If I knew you were gonna shout so much today, I would've spent a lot more time helping you fix your audio earlier. But you sound great. So, so...
Em Schulz: Oh, perfect.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. What... The Benning... Why do I know that?
Em Schulz: Umm, I think because it sounds a lot like Bridgewater Triangle...
Christine Schiefer: Perhaps.
Em Schulz: And it sounds a lot like Bermuda Triangle.
Christine Schiefer: Perhaps.
Em Schulz: Bennington Triangle, umm, I was expecting another Pukwudgie, uh, moment.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Pukwudgies, I'm telling you now, are not included in The Bennington Triangle yet. We can find one and bring them over and then start populating the area, if you'd like.
Christine Schiefer: They're an invasive species at that point and I don't really wanna be complicit in that.
Em Schulz: They have no natural, uh, predator, so they're really...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're gonna take over, like those koi fish or whatever.
Em Schulz: Like those hedgehogs or something.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So Bennington Triangle, it is a mystery spot or a mystery triangle. We remember our shapes. Rhombus.
Christine Schiefer: The only math class I ever got an A in, believe it or not, was geometry. So, umm...
Em Schulz: That was the only class I ever got a D in.
Christine Schiefer: That's what everyone says. Everyone's like, "Geometry's the... " And I... For some reason, I've been meaning to look into this. Does anybody know? My brain... Like geometry, I get it in a weird... Obviously, I don't, 'cause I don't know what a rhombus is, but you know, in general, when I learned it back in the day, I was like, "I fucking get it," and nobody else got it. And then when it came to algebra, I was like, "What the fuck? I don't know." So maybe there's some weird mind, like the way my brain works, I don't know.
Em Schulz: You know who else is really good at geometry? Spider-Man.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Yep. That's how he defeated Dr. Strange. He used geometry.
Christine Schiefer: Hilarious. Uh...
Em Schulz: That's... He knew where to, he knew where to swing 'cause he knew the angles of the mirror dimension.
Christine Schiefer: I think that you've told me this and I was like, "Wow, this is quite a heavy-handed way to say like, stay in school kids," or whatever.
Em Schulz: He... Well, the exact line from the movie was, "You know, what's cooler than magic, Dr. Strange?"
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I remember.
Em Schulz: "Math."
Christine Schiefer: Math. Oh my God. Oh, it hurts.
Em Schulz: If that's not on someone's math poster, I don't know what you're doing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh it, it, it must be.
Em Schulz: Umm, so Ms. Geometry, you know what a triangle is?
Christine Schiefer: Sure do.
Em Schulz: Uh, and this mystery spot happens to be triangular in shape. It is in Vermont and it is full of unexplained phenomenon.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Uh, the name was coined in the 1990s, but the actual area is pretty undefined, but the, the epicenter of it all seems to be Glastenbury Mountain.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Sounds [0:25:48.9] ____.
Em Schulz: Which like, if you were, if you were gonna have a mountain, do you have an idea about what you would name it? Because I wonder where Glastenbury comes from. It has to be someone's last name or...
Christine Schiefer: It has to be. Or, or like it's named after the, the original town in England or something.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like they're either called like something from another country or someone's name. I would call it Wobbly Mountain because Leona's favorite game is where she climbs up, umm, her little like nugget couch thing and says, "I'm queen of Wobbly Mountain." So I would probably just call it that.
Em Schulz: Eva, get ready to play Wobbly Mountain.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Eva, yeah, I'm... 'Cause I'm tired of it, I'll tell you that much. I'm fucking sick of it. 'Cause it requires me to stand up and pretend to like...
Em Schulz: Ugh, no thanks.
Christine Schiefer: And then catch her. Oh my God, it's so much physical exertion.
Em Schulz: The second she's of just binging TV age...
Christine Schiefer: I know, right?
Em Schulz: They're gonna bond. It's gonna be crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Get on TikTok. What age can I put her on TikTok? I'm kidding. Don't, don't yell at me, everyone.
Em Schulz: I feel like I would just name a mountain... I know it's so selfish, but I would just name it my last name. Like, I would just want it be...
Christine Schiefer: I guess that's not selfish. That's what everyone... That's what all the men did back in the day, might as well, you know...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Do it yourself?
Em Schulz: Or it would be something like Fuck The Patriarchy Mountain. Like, it would be like it'd have a purpose. Like it would have like... I, I would want a...
Christine Schiefer: You'd be sending a message.
Em Schulz: I'd want a certain group of people to know that this is for the girls, the gays and theys. Like, don't go over here.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, the epicenter of this place is Glastenbury Mountain, and the communities nearby this mountain, uh, are the ones that are having the strange experiences, specifically the towns of Glastenbury and Bennington.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Umm, Glastenbury was once a successful mining and logging town, but get this, people are terrible and they cut down literally all of the trees, all of them, and then they didn't have a reason to live in Glastenbury anymore because there was no point as a logging town without trees.
Christine Schiefer: Has anyone read the fucking Lorax? I mean, get with the fucking program.
Em Schulz: They apparently shot The Lorax at point-blank range.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess so.
Em Schulz: Umm, so I guess, yeah, once the trees were all gone, they were like, "Well, I guess we just up and leave." And so now it's become, by the 1930s, this abandoned logging town that is completely treeless.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: It was truly abandoned. In 2020, the population in Glastenbury was nine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: And at one point, it was only three, and all three of the people were one family and they all held all of the local government roles because there was nobody else.
Christine Schiefer: That's called nepotism.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's called someone's gotta do it.
Christine Schiefer: It's called useless nepotism 'cause like, what are you even doing with that power? [laughter]
Em Schulz: This is the type of story where... This is... I like to think this is the humble beginnings of Mayor Max. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Look, it was a family of three. I, I had to like step up and like really contribute to the family when it was only us for the entire government."
Christine Schiefer: "One of us had like a checkbook so we could balance the town's finances, I guess." Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. "My mom became the secretary by accident. I became mayor. I don't know. We were all just trying to make the pieces fit."
Christine Schiefer: "We all voted for each other, I think."
Em Schulz: So now a lot of Glastenbury is abandoned. But the other area that has a lot of expe, or, uh, weird experiences is Bennington, which has like a more normal population. It's like 16,000. Umm, once the mountain was abandoned, the trees did grow back, which I love that the second humans are gone for five seconds, Mother Nature like comes right back.
Christine Schiefer: Remember... Yeah. Remember during COVID when people were like, oh, shit, like suddenly all these uh, species are flourishing, like in the oceans and the wilderness.
Em Schulz: Yeah. All of a sudden there's dolphins in the rivers. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like what happened? [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like people just didn't fucking destroy the planet.
Christine Schiefer: People stopped messing with everything. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It was within like two or three weeks of everyone going inside.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was very quickly. I remember that was like the only positive thing I could find on the news that week.
Em Schulz: It was truly like, imagine if people just stopped doing what they do for a month. Because in three weeks, dolphins were back. Imagine in a month what would happen.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: So again, same kind of concept, as soon as people weren't in the area, it began to flourish. And now this area, umm, that once didn't have trees, the trees grew back and now this space, to keep it, I guess protected, sits within the Green Mountain National Forest. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: She's back. She went... She was barebones. She became part of the forest. Like anyone can do it.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Umm, fun fact, the forest has eight individually designated wilderness areas.
Christine Schiefer: Eight designated wilderness... Okay.
Em Schulz: Which I don't even really know what that means. In my mind, a forest...
Christine Schiefer: Me neither. [laughter]
Em Schulz: A fore... Like the designated areas are like the part with the trees, part of it that's water. That's kind of it. Like it's maybe there's an area for camping.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: I don't really know... I am so stupid. If I ever were to like talk to a park ranger, it would be so clear... I mean, I literally don't even go outside. So like, [laughter] they would, they would know very quickly that I am not the person to talk about their job with.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, no comment.
Em Schulz: If I was like, "How's work?" and they were like, "You know how the forest can be," I'd be like, "Oh yeah, I totally get it." The region inside the triangle, which again, most of it is Bennington and Glastenbury, but there's other regions, the, the main, uh, square footage of this triangle is linked to five mysterious disappearances from...
Christine Schiefer: [0:31:10.0] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: During the '40s. And that's what makes it so, uh, such a strange, creepy area.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, because all of these cold cases happened in this one specific region.
Christine Schiefer: In the '40s? All of them?
Em Schulz: All from 1945-1950. In a five-year gap...
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: There were five still cold case missing people.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Umm, the first disappearance, uh, was a 74-year-old named Middie Rivers, and he was a hunting guide and he was known to be like a survivalist. He was very good at being outdoors. He should have not gone missing compared to like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's when it's scary.
Em Schulz: If I were in the forest.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, like, if we went missing, they'd be like, "Wow. She read The Lorax one time and thought she could suddenly be like a survivalist." But if somebody who actually knows what they're doing gets lost...
Em Schulz: I didn't even read it, I watched it and that was...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I have you beat, I guess. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If I ever go missing in the forest, just know that like, first of all, why was I in the forest? But second of all, the second I entered the forest, we should have known I wasn't coming outta there, so.
Christine Schiefer: You entered unwillingly, first of all, uh...
Em Schulz: Unwillingly. And we...
Christine Schiefer: By someone else's hand. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The second I'm in the forest, if I ever go missing and someone like tracks my phone to the forest, just, just give up. I'm already dead. Like it's not... I'm not coming back.
Christine Schiefer: It's too late. It's too late.
Em Schulz: So 74-year-old Middie Rivers, a hunting guide, survivalist outdoorsman, insert word here. Uh, he's leading a group of hunters below the mountain, directly below this mountain with a lot of strange phenomenon. And of course, the area that they're walking through is a place called Hell Hollow.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Which, like, imagine during Halloween though, they must go nutsso.
Christine Schiefer: I hope so. Although maybe it's like one of those designated wilderness areas and they're like, "Please don't put like fake spider webs on... " [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. The real spider webs are fine enough.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, [laughter] we leave that to the spiders.
Em Schulz: Umm, so he was guiding these other people, but he split off just before lunch and was never seen again.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Which like, let's discuss. This is, this is a weird part that no one even mentioned in, in sources that I looked at, but I love that he's the survivalist outdoors guy hunting guide.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He goes missing. And the group of people he was guiding found their fucking way out without him? How does that make sense?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they just retraced their steps back. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe. But it is weird that like...
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe they just screamed until someone heard them. That's what I would do.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I would, ah-ah, just stand still and do one long note. Umm, I, I, I thought that was interesting though. Like, oh, the guy who knows what he's doing and he's been in these woods before goes missing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I would love to hear their, uh, side of it, because it's... I wonder how long did they wait for him? You know? Did they look for him? Did they just assume he got sick and left? Like I wonder how long they waited.
Em Schulz: See, that's, it's the human questions like that where it's like, it's the beginning of a horror movie of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: How long do you wait in the woods for a random person?
Christine Schiefer: Like if it's getting dark, like do you go, do you risk it and leave?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like, is it a prank? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Oof. Yeah. That's hilarious.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He's such a prankster, that survivalist wilderness guy.
Em Schulz: I know it was 1945, but in today's world, I'd be like, "The second I get back to WiFi, this guy's getting a one-star review." Like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm Yelping the shit out of this, by the way.
Em Schulz: I am never coming back to this forest again.
Christine Schiefer: You and I would use up all our battery like TikToking the, like, escape of the forest. Like this guy...
Em Schulz: I, uh, so anyway, he goes, he goes missing. The other four people, we never hear about them again. But allegedly they get home.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: And, uh, an initial search goes nowhere. And even though the search goes nowhere, and they're like, "Well, I guess he's just gone." 300 people, including like army soldiers, all gathered together and they're like, "No, we have to find this man."
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: They looked for him for another eight days. And after...
Christine Schiefer: [0:34:57.1] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Going through the entire forest extensively, they only found an empty bullet casing that matched his gun.
Christine Schiefer: [0:35:04.7] ____ gasp. Goosecam.
Em Schulz: And that's all we know about the story, is just that the...
Christine Schiefer: Dude.
Em Schulz: The only thing they ever found, they never found a body. They never found blood.
Christine Schiefer: That's so sinister.
Em Schulz: They never found footsteps. It was...
Christine Schiefer: And, and it's almost more, I mean, you would have thought they'd find something because he... I feel like sometimes you hear stories of people going missing in the wilderness and you don't know their last known location. But like, he had a whole group of people who said, "Oh, this is where we were.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He went that way. So it's not like, you know, he just vanished in this like mass forest. Like they know at least where he would have left the group.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, like, I have goosecam on my scalp. That is creeping me out.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yikes.
Em Schulz: You're welcome. Well, so a year later, we have another missing case where there's an 18-year-old girl named Paula, and she goes missing after hiking on a trail near Glastenbury Mountain.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Uh, despite other hikers seeing her just ahead of them, like they remember her walking ahead of them, she disappeared when she got, she like turned around a bend, like turned around a corner. And when they got there, she was already gone.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: She was totally by herself. They saw her, but they, they were within earshot. If she had been attacked by a person or an animal or something, they would have heard her. So when she turned the corner and then when they followed and she was gone, she was just vanished.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't like that.
Em Schulz: After what happened to, uh, oh, I'm sorry. My handsome ex-boyfriend just texted me, umm...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My handsome ex-boyfriend. [laughter] He's like, "Please stop talking about me."
Em Schulz: He, he said, "Are we still on for 7:00?" And then a heart. Ahhh!
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. You got a heart emoji?
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I'm gonna kiss him. I'm just kidding. I'm a little cheeky maybe. But we'll, we'll see how it goes. I'll let him make the first move.
Christine Schiefer: You guys can just share one big fettuccine noodle.
Em Schulz: We literally, that's exactly what's gonna happen. We might lead in the trumpet. You'll see.
Christine Schiefer: In a totally platonic way, obviously.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. It's, uh, maybe not. I don't know. We'll see. I'm feeling kind of crazy. Once I have fettuccine in front of me, anything's possible.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that's true. That's a fair point.
Em Schulz: Umm, so, uh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So because of what happened to Middie Rivers only a year before, and they had an, an original search party. They had another search party of like 300 people looking through the area and they couldn't find him. When a year later someone else goes missing and she's an 18-year-old girl, people are like...
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: "Oh, fuck this." So they have a search party of over 1,000 people.
Christine Schiefer: [0:37:31.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: They have multiple law enforcement departments. They have the National Guard bring out aircraft searches...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And they never found her.
Christine Schiefer: That's terrifying. Do we know, what was her name? Do we know?
Em Schulz: Her name was Paula Welden.
Christine Schiefer: Paula, that's terrible.
Em Schulz: And just totally went missing. That was in 1946. She was last seen wearing a bright red jacket. So now, much like every hotel in the world, there's a lady in red out there in the woods.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: But they never found her, never found the bright red jacket. Nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that is so weird.
Em Schulz: The most baffling disappearance comes on the three-year anniversary of Paula's missing.
Christine Schiefer: To the day?
Em Schulz: To the day.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: Three years after her disappearance, we're now in 1949, and 68-year-old James Tifford or Tedford, uh, he was heading home, uh, to Bennington after visiting family. And he was last seen by his friends who watched him get on the bus stop. Uh, and 14 other people who were on the bus with him say that he was there on the bus. Umm, and all of a sudden out of nowhere on the bus, mid drive James is fucking gone.
Christine Schiefer: [0:38:44.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Luggage still there.
Christine Schiefer: What? He disappears from the bus?
Em Schulz: Like, poof. Goodbye.
Christine Schiefer: So was this like near the forest? Was it within the triangle?
Em Schulz: It was within the triangle.
Christine Schiefer: [0:38:55.1] ____ gasp. Eww. So you can't, you're not even safe like...
Em Schulz: In a car on the road.
Christine Schiefer: In a moving vehicle.
Em Schulz: Like his luggage was still there. And then he had been working on something at his seat and that was still there. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. What the fuck?
Em Schulz: He just somehow vanished between the last stop and the stop to Bennington, which is one of the bigger areas for this type of phenomena. Nobody saw anything shady happen. Nobody saw him talking to someone who dragged him off the bus.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: He never followed anyone off the bus. He was just there and then he was not. He just completely evaporated.
Christine Schiefer: The fact that his stuff and what I imagine was a really beautiful needle point he was creating, [laughter] were all left behind, maybe I'm projecting.
Em Schulz: He was actually needle pointing his goodbye letter to everybody.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sad. Yeah. Like what in the world? That's baffling.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They could only say that truly he was there one minute ago and now he's not there.
Christine Schiefer: Dude, if I lived in that town, I mean, no wonder only three people lived there. But if I lived in that fucking town on the anniversary of any of these, I'd be like, "I'm going out of state. Bye."
Em Schulz: Yeah. See you. I, I mean, in his needle point, like imagine if he had been, uh, needle pointing like, "Now you see me, now you don't." And then as he disappeared, it like fell out of the air.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's a normal pattern to buy at the local needle point store.
Em Schulz: Especially in 1949.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah, just totally vanished off the, off the bus. So, uh, that was another case. And then the fourth case was a year later where there was an 8-year-old named Paul Jepson.
Christine Schiefer: [0:40:20.8] ____ gasp. No.
Em Schulz: And Paul vanished from his family pickup truck.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And the, the story goes that he was fed to the pigs by his own parents.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: That's the fun little story we've got going.
Christine Schiefer: What? So like that that's the theory or something?
Em Schulz: I think the, I think through a game of telephone, that's the story it became, because I also saw another source that said that he disappeared when his parents were feeding the pigs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. So they just thought telephone.
Em Schulz: And it very quickly... Very quickly telephoned into he was fed to the pigs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's... It's kind of a fucked up twist. Umm, so is the theory that they killed him, I assume, and...
Em Schulz: That's like the... When people are trying to logically figure out where the fuck he went...
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: They're thinking that he must have...
Christine Schiefer: Something happened and they got rid of the body.
Em Schulz: And killed and fed to pigs 'cause a lot of bodies have been fed to pigs and no evidence comes up later.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: So there was a manhunt for him as well. At this point, I feel like the police are tired. They're like, "Jesus Christ. Like people just keep going away."
Christine Schiefer: And this is like a small rural area, right? Like, it's not...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like we're in some big metropolis. Like they're bringing in the National Guard every year to find people? I mean...
Em Schulz: The National Guard might as well just put it on their calendar like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "Every year we do a conference in these fucking woods," and just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for God's sake, like what is going on?
Em Schulz: Also interesting to me that if they're... If you're doing a 1,000-person manhunt, none of those 1,000 also went missing? I feel like that...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I had that same thought. I was like, "Did they do a roll call?" Because, like...
Em Schulz: Because what if there's several more people missing now and we just don't know?
Christine Schiefer: Vanished.
Em Schulz: Because people could have thought, "Oh, they just Irish goodbyed for the day." Nope, they're gone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't like that either, Em.
Em Schulz: The irony of going missing during...
Christine Schiefer: A missing person's search? Yeah.
Em Schulz: A manhunt for somebody else so nobody's looking for you. Or like, what if someone...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh wait, that's a good book idea. Write that down. Eva?
Em Schulz: Or what if someone spots you, but you're not like the 8-year-old kid and so they just like turn their head away and don't realize that they actually found you and you need help and they're... And they just walk away?
Christine Schiefer: Eva, I've kinda lost the plot, but write that down anyway.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. So they have a manhunt, no results for 8-year-old Paul Jepson. They just know he went missing when he was last with his parents.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible.
Em Schulz: Umm, but a bloodhound tracked Paul's scent to a nearby crossroads where the trail ended. So it's thought that he walked off the trail and into the woods and was just never found again. Some people suspect that his parents murdered him, but there's no evidence of that. It's just kind of a rumor now.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, which is so sad because imagine your fucking 8-year-old kid goes missing and is probably dead. And now everyone's just like...
Christine Schiefer: And that like, you're just getting blamed for it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible.
Em Schulz: Paul's dad said that Paul was obsessed with the mountain and maybe just wandered off and that he was lured away by the mountains. Umm, and two weeks later is the final disappearance of a 53-year-old woman named Frieda. She disappeared on a hike, even though she was also just as experienced as that Middie Rivers guy, she was like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: A back woods woman, a survivalist, all these things. Umm, and only a half mile into a casual hike, which a half mile by the way. Like, I mean, I don't, I don't walk a lot, but a half mile is...
Christine Schiefer: It's not, it's not that far into the woods. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's not that far.
Christine Schiefer: Especially on like a casual hike, which I assume means on a trail that people use regularly. Right.
Em Schulz: On a, on a flat trail. It's like essentially just a couple blocks, I would imagine.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right.
Em Schulz: I, I don't actually know the right number, but I know someone told me something's a half mile away, I actually would not complain about having to walk at all that bad, so...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Noted. Eva, write that down, too.
Em Schulz: Uh, only a half mile into a casual hike with her cousin, she tripped and fell into a stream, which is any of us could and probably have done that.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, she told her cousin, uh, like, "Wait a minute. Like, we're so close to camp, let me just go back and change before we finish on this hike."
Christine Schiefer: [0:44:16.7] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: So I don't know why...
Christine Schiefer: And so she wasn't even alone. I thought she was alone for some reason. She's with her cousin.
Em Schulz: No, she was with her cousin.
Christine Schiefer: [0:44:24.1] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Weirdly, her cousin, like then just like hung out in that little spot in the woods by himself. Like didn't like go back with her while she changed? Like, what was he gonna do for 20 minutes?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't know. I mean, I feel like...
Em Schulz: Climb a tree? I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, I'd just sit down and like have a smoke. I don't know. [laughter] Like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. That's true.
Christine Schiefer: What did you do back then? I have no idea. But I feel like that makes sense. Like, "Oh, I'm gonna go change my clothes."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like, "Okay, I'll wait here if it's only a few... "
Em Schulz: Yeah, I guess so. Either way...
Christine Schiefer: A half a mile. I don't... Yeah.
Em Schulz: She, she ends up going back, and this was, by the way, this was the same trail that Paula was on in 1949 when she went missing.
Christine Schiefer: [0:45:00.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Umm, so she says, "I'm gonna run back to the camp." Her husband is at the camp. And he said that Frieda never showed up.
Christine Schiefer: [0:45:09.5] ____ gasp. So somewhere between that.
Em Schulz: And her cousin... And her... Yeah, and her never saw her come back. So for her to only walk within earshot of both of them, essentially, I mean...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: If she was screaming for help someone would have heard. But she vanished in such a short distance and she was so nearby that if she needed help, someone would have heard her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and the search was even more extensive than Paula's in 1949, which I think she was the thousand person one. The thousand person manhunt.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But what's sad interesting is that it was even more extensive than Paula's manhunt because Paula's father, when they never found Paula, he was so upset that they never found her that he was, uh, he said that there were mistakes in the case and he wanted that to never happen to anybody again. So his efforts helped, uh, found the Vermont state police and improved rescue protocols, search and rescue protocols.
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: So because of her disappearance and her... That, and Paula's father's initiatives, the search for Frieda was even more intense.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Even so, they brought the National Guard out again, who are like, "Oh my God, don't even tell us the address. We know how to get there by memory now."
Christine Schiefer: Like give us a punch card at this point, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The National Guard, the army, local authorities and volunteers all failed to locate Frieda.
Christine Schiefer: What in the world is going on?
Em Schulz: Until months later, Frieda's remains were discovered in an open area where searchers had already extensively looked through this area and it was...
Christine Schiefer: [0:46:44.5] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Open, no trees, nothing. So they would have definitely found her, which means that she was hidden during the search and rescue.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And only after the search and rescue efforts ended, someone dragged her out there.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is going on?
Em Schulz: And when they did find her, her body was so, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Decomposed?
Em Schulz: Decomposed that they could not determine a cause of death.
Christine Schiefer: What in the world, Em? This is getting really freaky.
Em Schulz: So this leaves the triangle with five cold cases that we know of, or that were like heavily publicized. I'm sure, I mean, that was back in the '40s and this is like 400,000 acres of woods. So someone else has unfortunately probably gone missing or been hurt out in these woods. But these are the five cold cases that created the lore of the Bennington Triangle.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, and the wild part is like if it is a true crime situation, these are all very different victim profiles, like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, aside from the two women, but like a 18-year-old, basically a teenage girl, a little boy, an older man, like a middle-aged woman...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It just seems all over. And then the guy on the bus, which also...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That wouldn't make sense for, I guess, a true crime necessarily, but it's just so odd.
Em Schulz: So these are some of the theories then. The most obvious is that there was a serial killer that might have been active in the area...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And hiding out in the woods. Umm, because as you were just talking about the profile, the only thing that all these people had in common was that they all vanished in the winter near the end of the year in the, in the same general area. That's the only commonalities they have. Other than that, they are completely different in age, in gender, in location. I mean, they were the general...
Christine Schiefer: Experience.
Em Schulz: The general area, but like, yeah, I mean, they were all within earshot of witnesses. Uh, or at least three out of five of the victims were all within shot of... Earshot of witnesses.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So it couldn't have been like an opportunistic killer because they weren't easy targets. Especially like two of them were survivalists who probably had loaded guns on them.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: One of them definitely had a loaded gun because they found a bullet casing.
Christine Schiefer: A bullet. Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so it's not like he was just... If it was a serial killer, they maybe were like very new at it and were just picking anybody and not knowing who to be careful of.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe I just wonder then with that final, it was so different to suddenly bring the remains back. Like maybe that one...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Was a serial killer who was like, "Oh, I'll just capitalize on the fact that people are vanishing. Maybe I can just pop on in." I don't, I mean, I have no idea. No fucking clue.
Em Schulz: I mean that, that does feel like it could be a power move of like, "Haha, I can up the ante now and literally bring the bodies back and you still won't know who I am."
Christine Schiefer: I'm assuming they looked at the husband and cousin for her death.
Em Schulz: I'm, I guess so. I, it was never determined.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so creeped out by that.
Em Schulz: So another theory was wild animals. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, sure.
Em Schulz: Like black bears in the area could have taken them. But again, three attacks. There were, with three attacks, there were witnesses that would have either been within earshot or they would have literally seen a fucking bear. Or like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Even if they didn't see a bear with that person, there would have been like notices out in the woods that there's a bear in this area.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or they would have, they would have at least heard a, a struggle, right? Like, or like a, some movement. Like, a bear's not subtle.
Em Schulz: Exactly. There would have been tracks or blood, especially in, since this was every single missing person was at the end of the year in the winter. So in cases where there was snow on the ground, there should have definitely been tracks of blood.
Christine Schiefer: First of all, bears hibernate. I went to third grade and I did learn that. Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Second of all...
Em Schulz: Degree? Okay, degree.
Christine Schiefer: The red parka, you think a bear... [laughter] You think a bear ate the fucking red parka? No. Where is it? You know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Well, they also thought maybe, uh, an animal, one animal killed Frieda and then another animal maybe dragged her body and like out into the woods. And that would explain why she was found all of a sudden. But like if a, an animal big enough to drag a human being, dragged her right to where people had been looking, that means she probably wasn't that far away from that area...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And people had probably searched that area too.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So, or it could be a combo. Maybe an animal killed her and a person dragged her out into the middle of nowhere. Maybe a person killed her, an animal... So it could be anything. And, but with the wild animal theory, like you said, there should have definitely been signs of a struggle. People were within earshot of most of these people. Two of them had guns. There would at least be blood of someone trying to shoot the animal to keep it away from them.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And the only like big cat that was considered a predator in the area was the eastern cougar. And it had already been extinct by that point. Umm, and new big cats wouldn't have started wandering that area for several more decades.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. And I, you know, I, it's so wild to me that they found the bullet casing because like that means they were looking very thoroughly. Right? Like...
Em Schulz: They were looking. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Unless they just happened to stumble upon it. But that means they were looking for little clues. And they, I imagine when the searches got even more intense, they were looking for a fucking red parka or whatever, a shoe...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Anything. I mean, Jesus. That's so weird.
Em Schulz: No, it's such a good point. That like something as small as a bullet casing means that like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's not that they were doing a quick scan.
Christine Schiefer: Like a scan. Right.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They were looking, looking. So they would have found a fucking red piece of fabric. They would have seen like a human limb or something if someone got ripped apart.
Christine Schiefer: Any remains. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Blood, blood if someone got hurt. Umm, another theory, which I do like this theory a lot, is, umm, that because this area was an abandoned mineshaft that maybe people... Since the mountain was once covered in mining operations and there were a lot of shafts that were placed randomly and wouldn't have even been marked...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Umm, people might have thought they were walking into a cave or maybe they got lost and they were trying to find shelter and...
Christine Schiefer: Well, imagine just like falling into one of these old mine shafts and then like how...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: That's absolutely terrifying.
Em Schulz: Which is, that's the theory is that a lot of them might have just fallen and...
Christine Schiefer: [0:53:00.9] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Died on impact, which is why you never heard them cry out for help.
Christine Schiefer: [0:53:02.1] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: It's why they all of a sudden just fucking vanished 'cause they dropped immediately.
Christine Schiefer: That is so frightening.
Em Schulz: So that's, I think that's a pretty good one, that even an experienced hiker isn't an experienced miner, you know? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. And they, if they hadn't been marked and you take one wrong step or, you know, you go into one wrong little hovel or cave thinking you're just gonna have your lunch and then, ooh...
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I like that one a lot. But people also, like the argument here, which is a good argument, is that people had never had issues with the shafts in this area before. So why from 1945-1950...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's true.
Em Schulz: Why in this only five-year period where people like experiencing just like a fucking cascade of mine shafts that you just walk by?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's a great point. Unless like in 1950 they did some like massive overhaul of the safety of them and like put signs up or something. But like, it doesn't sound like that is what happened.
Em Schulz: I, I don't think that was what happened. But I, I agree that like...
Christine Schiefer: That's weird.
Em Schulz: This if there are like, especially that one girl who was like only half a mile away from her campsite.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like if people are camping in this area and there's an accidental mine shaft you could drop into, they would have signs or they'd cover it up or something.
Christine Schiefer: Or you'd think someone else would have seen it or found it by now.
Em Schulz: Someone else since 1950 would have dropped in there by accident.
Christine Schiefer: Well, especially if they're doing these intense searches like search and rescue operations.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Someone would have stepped on something. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Ao that's a theory as to why that doesn't work. It also wouldn't make sense that Frieda and Paula would have both fallen in, uh, like we're saying how people were scouring the area pretty good. But Frieda and Paula were on like, one of the most common trails. So like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: How are they the only two people in a well-marked public hiking trail to find a mysterious shaft.
Christine Schiefer: That makes sense.
Em Schulz: Umm, another theory is that people maybe who got lost died of hypothermia or starvation, but like Frieda was half a mile away from her campsite. Like she...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And like...
Em Schulz: Did fall into a stream and it was winter, so maybe she got cold.
Christine Schiefer: True, true.
Em Schulz: But it was half a mile. She wouldn't have even noticed she had a cold yet by the time she got back to her husband at the campsite.
Christine Schiefer: And again, like with hypothermia too, I mean, we know that people tend to shed their clothing when they are close to death from that reason.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: I I don't know.
Em Schulz: And there's no clothing they found.
Christine Schiefer: And there's no remain. I mean, I guess an animal could have... But all, for all five of them to just like inexplicably vanish. That's, yeah, probably a stretch.
Em Schulz: Yeah. For like exposure. But like James was on a bus, like, what are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's true too. Yeah. What the hell?
Em Schulz: And James is definitely the weirdest one because he was on a bus, so he couldn't have starved, he couldn't have had hypothermia, he couldn't have fallen into a shaft...
Christine Schiefer: So they didn't like...
Em Schulz: He couldn't have been eaten by a bear.
Christine Schiefer: Could it... Could it have been like they stopped at a rest stop? And he... And like nobody realized he never got back on the bus?
Em Schulz: I, it, it feels like... I mean, honestly James is such a weird one. It's not even like on a hiking trail that, uh, my first thought is like, he must have just like gone to the restroom and missed the bus. Like, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It could have been something easier than that. But I don't know. Uh, people say that they, on the last stop and then the stop before Bennington, he was still on the bus as of that last stop.
Christine Schiefer: That's very weird.
Em Schulz: So mid-bus ride to Bennington, he disappeared.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's really strange.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then because he's so weird and no one can place like his fucking story, people's theories got a little more crazy. And they started suggesting Cryptids. They started saying that the culprit could be this Bigfoot variant in the area, called the Bennington Monster. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And the only story we have of the Bennington Monster, I'm telling you, it feels like a game of telephone all over again because it's from the 1800s, back when there were stage coaches.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And the first sighting of the Bennington Monster was when a stage coach was carrying people and had to stop on the side of the road because a flash flood made the roads too dangerous.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So this stranded stage coach is on the road, the driver is looking around the area by the stage coach to see if like they're parked in an okay area. And he's using literally an old oil lamp. This is the beginning of like a Horror movie.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord. It is. I'm scared.
Em Schulz: Did you just say my lore? That's your lore?
Christine Schiefer: I said, I said, oh my Lord. But also, but also this is my lore. This is cannon for me and my oil... I have an oil lamp now.
Em Schulz: I thought you were saying, my lore.
Christine Schiefer: Have you ever seen Shifter Cannon? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Girl, people are using the lantern to find you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: To find my wallet. Yeah. [laughter] It'll never be found.
Em Schulz: It's literally the equivalent of you using your phone flashlight to find your wallet at the bottom of your car.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I was literally doing that for over an hour yesterday. So Yeah. It's a little too on the nose. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, the driver looked around the area of the stage coach in the dim light of his oil lamp and he saw in the mud, very fresh, impossibly huge bare humanoid footprints.
Christine Schiefer: And you mean bare, B-A-R-E? Right?
Em Schulz: B-A-R-E.
Christine Schiefer: Just to clarify. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Umm, then a gigantic humanoid figure comes out of the trees and attacks the stage coach.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Somehow, with its Hulk strength, knocked the whole stage coach with a bunch of passengers on its side. So all the people go tumbling in the stage coach.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And the passengers only saw the creature's eyes reflecting in the lantern before it ran off. They didn't see a big fucking machine like a big massive monster, umm, but they saw his eyes. They saw those baby blues...
Christine Schiefer: So it just shoved it over and then ran away? Like it didn't like eat any of them or something?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right? Like, isn't that like, this feels like this has to be some Sleepy Hollow bullshit. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's so not, it's not more of that Sleepy Hollow bullshit, [laughter] yeah.
Em Schulz: But like, I think about like a monster coming out and chasing you, who is also perfectly already just walking in that area for you to see the footprints. Then he...
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Comes out and knocks everyone down, doesn't take a single victim and then runs off, but has the most beautiful eyes you ever did see.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I would say perhaps the word we're looking for is contrived. Perhaps a bit contrived.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay. You know, you sound like someone who would ride in a stage coach in the 1800s.
Christine Schiefer: I, listen, I sound like someone who shouldn't be losing her wallet every weekend. And yet here we are.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The fact that you would lose your wallet every day of your life and use words like contrived is such a oxymoron.
Christine Schiefer: That's why I keep having this little menty B. I'm like, "What is the matter with me?" Like I've, you know, how do I...
Em Schulz: It's like I'm so smart. I use words like contrived.
Christine Schiefer: How did I ace geometry and I can't fucking keep my license on me, on my person? That's so unhinged. Like mentally unstable.
Em Schulz: No, girl. That's just neurodivergence, my friend. That's...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Now you sound like my mom. My new and improved mom who somehow suddenly believes that that's, you know...
Em Schulz: I've been saying it since day one, home slice.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, you have been. And I think we all knew I needed to wait for my mother to confirm it before, before I really believed it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I can I say it a million times, but you really needed to hear it somewhere for the inner child, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe that's what it was. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, so it attacked the stage coach, knocked the, knocked it to the side, ran off. Later on, there were other reports of the same monster. Uh, people were claiming that they, too, saw giant barefoot tracks in the mud. There were reports of a monster who was over six feet tall and covered in thick black fur from head to toe. And by the mid 1800s, people were now reporting a local gorilla man and were so scared of it that they started forming hunting parties to track it down.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my lord.
Em Schulz: It was cited many times walking around in the woods and around people's houses. Nobody ever shot at it. So these hunting parties seemed like they were not working. Umm, and theories ranged from it being an escaped zoo animal to a prankster in a costume.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: But like, I feel like if I were a prankster in a costume, the second I read in the newspapers that people had created hunting parties...
Christine Schiefer: Or shooting at me. [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: I would be like, "The prank's over, bitch."
Christine Schiefer: And also thought that I was like, abducting children and stuff. I'd be like. "Okay, this is no longer a funny prank."
Em Schulz: Or like attempted murder, like now, like, I'm gonna go to jail.
Christine Schiefer: Now they're gonna ask where all the remains are. And like, "I just got this on Amazon. I wasn't trying to be part of this police investigation."
Em Schulz: I'm just, I'm just covered in mud. It wasn't even hair.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, come on.
Em Schulz: Umm, also imagine you're just like a, an, more than normal, hairy person and now people are writing about the gorilla man in the newspaper.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's, that's tragic. Yeah, that's gotta hurt.
Em Schulz: Oof. So you have to have an insecurity by the end of the day.
Christine Schiefer: It's gotta be embarrassing.
Em Schulz: Uh, people also said like, I, it might be an escaped zoo animal, but there were no missing animals at the zoo. And it seemed again, like a hard sell that someone would keep wearing a costume knowing that gunfire was a threat to them. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Unlikely.
Em Schulz: People believed that this monster might capture and eat people in the mountains and then could also somehow masterfully hide evidence. Umm, so that's another theory...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it lives in the mine shafts like, like Mothman.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or even like, what was it Shasta Mountain or something where like there's a whole race of...
Christine Schiefer: Mount Shasta.
Em Schulz: Mount Shasta. There's a whole like, race of people out there who hide in the old mountains. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, maybe there's something we just don't know about that uses the empty mine shafts. I mean, that's creepy in and of itself to talk about.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So I mean, that's the other theory then is that there's a monster in the woods who's taking people and has... It feels a lot like, umm, other Cryptids I've talked about where it was only spotted for like a few years and now 50 years have passed and it's never been seen again. But we still think it's out there eating people even though it's shown no signs.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It reminds me of, what does it remind me of? Like, umm, not Pukwudgie, what's the, what's the guy who cries 'cause he's so ugly? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh the, uh, the Squonk.
Christine Schiefer: Squonk. Uh, it's like that where it's like, it's written about twice in close proximity and then like, nobody ever talks about it again [laughter] until now. And we're still talking about it. But that is bizarre. And like, the fact that this was actually like real evidence of people actually vanishing is so sad. Like usually...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The stories are like, oh, you know. Like the, the oil lamp story. Like, oh, it might just be kind of exaggerated, but the fact that five people, like a child actually went missing?
Em Schulz: Yeah, or the fact that... Or people have put newspaper reports of the gorilla man from 100 years before have now... So like, oh, maybe that guy is still alive and hurting people. Like it could... It could be anything. Like people have branched out too far where now I feel like almost no answer...
Christine Schiefer: Right. It seems almost like way less clear [chuckle] like the further out you get.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Umm, people believe that the monster might be hiding evidence. People also, uh, turn to two different legends linked to the mountain. So now they're thinking if it's not the monster, then maybe there's some other lore we need to be paying attention to. And that's where we get two different legends. Really one legend, umm, from indigenous people, uh, people have often said that there's a story linked to the Abenaki people.
Em Schulz: Umm, but every origin I've found to this legend, and also Saoirse has said the same thing, is that a lot of the legends' origins aren't really substantiated and every source seems to come back to a non-native person writing about this in the '90s.
Christine Schiefer: Right. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah, that sounds right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Just putting it out there. It might not actually be an indigenous legend. It might just be someone...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Someone's decided to create one, which is just...
Em Schulz: Someone this color... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Beyond... Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: The story is that the... All four winds, one north wind, a south wind, east wind, west wind, they all met at the top of the mountain and had a fight, and their eternal combat cursed the mountain, and people get confused by the wind up there and ended up lost and never get home.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: So it sounds a little Pukwudgie, like is sending you astray, almost.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And Glastenbury Mountain is noted for its high winds and temperamental weather, so that does fit the legend. I don't know why someone had to maybe make up an indigenous legend. They could have just said, "I don't know, it's really fucking windy up here."
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause the '90s are wild and people decided they could suddenly put me like, umm, I mean, myself included, put like dreamcatchers up and shit, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like that was a time when umm, we weren't completely aware yet of how inappropriate that was.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You know, I mean, I'm including myself in that, but...
Em Schulz: Oh, I'm including myself in that too. I loved a fucking dreamcatcher.
Christine Schiefer: I know. And it took me years to be like, "Oh gosh, no." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Imagine the people who like have one like tattooed on them or something.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know that's gotta be really tough like, uh, how...
Em Schulz: And now you just turn it into like a really cool spider web or something, you know, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, make it a spider web, the kind that grows in the Hell Hollow or whatever it's called.
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter] Deb the Web. Put Deb in there.
Christine Schiefer: Deb the Web!
Em Schulz: Umm, so okay, so the, the winds are mad at each other and they confuse people.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And uh, and it actually does fit the story because Glastenbury is so windy. In fact, here's a, here's, uh, uh, a little factoid for you, umm, the wind direction is so inconsistent on this mountain that all plants curve differently based...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: On how the wind was blowing when they grew.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Isn't that fun?
Christine Schiefer: That is bananas.
Em Schulz: But also for a survivalist, it's like you can't trust any leaf. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: No. True point.
Em Schulz: It's like, "I don't know where we're going. I don't know." Umm, a second story is that somewhere on the mountain, there is a mysterious... This is, uh, another "indigenous" story.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, that somewhere on the mountain, there's a mysterious stone that swallows anything that touches it. And so if you're a lost hiker and you stand on the rock to get a good vantage point and like get your bearings, you could be swallowed by the stone and vanish forever.
Christine Schiefer: Super. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Even worse, the stone can allegedly move at will, so you never know which rock is safe.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay. Great. [laughter] Okay, I was gonna say, somebody put up a little, a little sign or something, but I guess not.
Em Schulz: I know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, another theory, your favorite, UFOs.
Christine Schiefer: I figured that one was coming. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It, it usually is. And in Vermont, it actually is the uh, number two state that you're most likely to see a UFO.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like maybe I've heard that only because I feel like I've seen like merch that has like a Vermont with UFO... Like I don't know, maybe I'm...
Em Schulz: Oh, really?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking of our trip to Portland... I mean, we'll be there soon again. Shoutout to our tour. But uh, I don't know, I feel like I kind of put that together somehow. But I didn't know it was number two. What's number one then? Uh, New Mexico?
Em Schulz: I thought that too, but it's Washington.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh... Interesting that they're both kind of like bord... Like, uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Border by the ocean.
Em Schulz: Canadian in some way?
Christine Schiefer: And Canadian also. [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: I wonder if that means like Vancouver and like Prince Edward Island, or like the, the hotspots in Canada.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, I've been to Halifax and, uh, it's a weird place, but I didn't see a UFO. But, umm...
Em Schulz: I'm still so jealous of you with Halifax. My mom and I actually...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Said we're gonna go on our own trip to Halifax together.
Christine Schiefer: You should. Uh, I still... Blaise and I still say like, "Can we find some excuse to go back there?" Because like we went for his conference and it just happened to be our anniversary weekend. And I'm like, "You need another conference? Is there a stay-at-home dad conference up in Halifax this year?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: I love that there might be a stay-at-home conference you have to go to. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. I'm like... And Blaise is like, "That's not a thing, so stop asking." No. Umm, but yeah, I would... You should totally go. I mean, and the fact that... I know we already talked about this like years ago, but they have like a whole Titanic history like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. I still have the newspaper you got me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's right. Okay. Uh, anyway, it's a cool town, a cool, cool place.
Em Schulz: Umm, the second I'm going to Halifax, everyone will know. Don't worry. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Well, I, I'll be just like awkwardly like FaceTiming you constantly. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so UFOs are said to be a theory. Uh, people have reported often there that there are unexplained sounds and lights in The Bennington Triangle along with radio disturbances.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: It's led some people to believe alien abductions are the reason behind the missing people.
Christine Schiefer: It's also led me to believe that.
Em Schulz: I mean, it does not take much for me to believe in that either. I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: No. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm like, well, that makes...
Christine Schiefer: True. They're not a good barometer for that, I suppose.
Em Schulz: In my mind, aliens almost make the most sense.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Isn't that like scary when that's the conclusion?
Em Schulz: I'm like, am I in QAnon? Like... I'm like, "Why all of a sudden am I like so quick to believe the fringe thing?"
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like a reality check or like a intervention. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: That's what I just... I try to have this conversation with my own girlfriend and she gives me a weird stare-down until I come back to reality.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's when Blaise and Allison really are, are our rock, you know? Our foundation.
Em Schulz: I know. She has to... She has to find a therapist to just be like, "I think I'm with a, an unnervingly strange person."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Umm, uh, the last theory is that there are Glastenbury wild men.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, woah.
Em Schulz: Which is somehow different than the Bennington monster who was also a wild man running around.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Same time period, the 1800s, uh, hunters reported... This is so fucking wild and inappropriate now, but hunters reported finding a red-headed man in the forest completely naked, and because of that, they shot at him. They shot at him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God... Wait. And you... Sorry. In my head, I... When you said they found him, I assumed he was like dead, but you're saying he was like...
Em Schulz: Oh, no. He is like running around.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry?
Em Schulz: He was a red-headed naked man. And they said that he seemed strange.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah.
Em Schulz: Because he had red hair? I don't know. I...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause he's naked and running around the woods, I assume.
Em Schulz: I mean, naked is weird, but like, that doesn't require a bullet. That's...
Christine Schiefer: No, certainly not. You shouldn't just shoot at anything that strikes you as odd, right? Like...
Em Schulz: Also, I love that they were able to finally actually use their guns in their hunting group and shoot at a human being, but they couldn't do it with a fuckin'...
Christine Schiefer: That might be what they were just looking for an excuse, yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, they said he seemed possessed by spirits which, yikes, that means this person might just have a mental health crisis.
Christine Schiefer: Bad news. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: He might have been having a menty B.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, haven't we all?
Em Schulz: Umm, they shot at him, and when he moved towards them... This is how like fuckin' non-alpha male these people are. Are you ready? They shot at him until he moved towards them to like protect themself, and they dropped their guns and ran away. So like they were...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: They were big and mighty until all of a sudden he was like...
Christine Schiefer: The only sensible thing they've done so far.
Em Schulz: I, I wonder if it's because he was naked and that's gay. But like...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe. Maybe a naked man coming toward you, yeah, maybe that's what scared them off.
Em Schulz: Ruffled some feathers.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: I... Just like you're down to use a gun till all of a sudden they fight back and then you run away. It's like, oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So did... But he didn't get shot?
Em Schulz: He didn't get shot. And also somehow... He didn't get shot. They shot at him. He approached them to like say like, "If you wanna do this, let's do this." Uh, I don't know. I guessing. He, he... He moved towards them in a threatening way, and even though they had guns, they dropped them and ran away. Which also to me is like the next part of the story is that the red-headed naked man should pick up their guns and chase them, but whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I was gonna say, if they dropped their guns, like now he's an armed red-headed naked man.
Em Schulz: Now he might need to be like handled like...
Christine Schiefer: Now I'm worried. Now I'm worried... Yeah, exactly. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, this story was published in The New York Times. Your brother is in charge of newspapers.com as far as I'm concerned.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So if you'd like to learn more about that, he can find that for us. Umm, people thought that the man was possessed and turned into some sort of supernatural monster who hunted people, even though people were hunting him, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: That seems like quite a stretch too, to be like, "I looked at someone and I decided that they had become a supernatural person who's hunting humans." Like...
Em Schulz: This is the closest equivalency I've ever seen to like a man being like called witchcraft... Like a witch or something. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, "We just knew."
Em Schulz: It's like, "Well, she had a birthmark and she called... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: "And she called me ugly, so she must be killed."
Christine Schiefer: Freckles and red hair, like are you kidding? What else could it mean? [laughter] It's like, okay.
Em Schulz: So, umm, yeah, they just, out of nowhere... I wonder if it's because they got cornered and they were just making whatever story they could come up with, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: But in the 1960s, there's another story of a wild man out in the, out in the woods. Uh, he allegedly lived in the caves and would climb down the mountain into town just to flash people and wave around a gun.
Christine Schiefer: Well, okay, here's what I have to say about this.
Em Schulz: This is like, we're fully in like derailed territory.
Christine Schiefer: See, now I'm sort of back onboard, 'cause now I'm thinking, say you hooked me back in, you reeled me back in...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Naked man, okay, connection there.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He has armed himself. They dropped their weapons. He grabbed a gun.
Em Schulz: But then like 150 years later, he's back to still being naked and wave a gun around?
Christine Schiefer: I really did think you said five years, but you did say 150. Okay, that does...
Em Schulz: It went from 1800s to 1960s. So it's even past all the missing people.
Christine Schiefer: Understood. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Weird.
Em Schulz: So like, is there now like a, a copycat, like another naked red-headed man with a gun running around? What's going on? It really makes... I wanna have more information for you because it...
Christine Schiefer: This is so weird.
Em Schulz: I feel like I had some logic going in my notes and now I'm just spewing random worded sentences.
Christine Schiefer: It just sounds so deeply unhinged. Like I don't know what is happening in this area, but it's not good.
Em Schulz: It's like the wild man, because he was naked and red-headed and looked possessed to them...
Christine Schiefer: Now he's like sexually harassing people. Like, what happened?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. And now there's apparently another one 150 years later doing the same thing.
Christine Schiefer: Also, in order to flash someone, I imagine you have to be wearing clothes first, right, to be like, flash.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So, so where did he find these clothes? Or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Are they the same clothes for 150 years just being passed down from red-head to red-head?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say were they 1800 hunting gear? Like, where is he getting it? I don't know. Passed from... Yeah, passed from his descendants? It...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: It's just odd.
Em Schulz: So he never physically harmed anyone, which I love that he is waving around a gun, has been shot at...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But he hasn't harmed anybody. He still freaks people out and is said to disappear back into his cave for months at a time. I would argue centuries at a time, but okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, the stories about this wild man uh, sometimes are combined with the, the wind legends, and says that the wind spirits drove him and others mad and possessed them into protecting the mountain and being really like on the offense.
Christine Schiefer: And now they live in the mines and all this.
Em Schulz: Yes. So the story is that they now protect the mountain, are super like... I don't know. So if they ever see anyone who threatens them, they like take them away. And that's how the missing people disappeared.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay, okay.
Em Schulz: In 1892, so a guy out there killed his own co-worker with a rock and insisted something invisible had told him to do it. Umm, so that's another thought that maybe he became a wild man when the winds confused him.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, what year was that?
Em Schulz: 1892.
Christine Schiefer: He killed him with a rock? Jesus... I mean, woah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. With a rock. That's fucking hard. That's rough... That's rough though.
Christine Schiefer: That's like an intense... Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, he escaped custody when being arrested and disappeared into the mountains. And...
Christine Schiefer: [1:16:19.8] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: The theory is that he just became a wild man and is on the loose, which... So now like he was out there from the 1890s just maybe killing more people with rocks because the, the...
Christine Schiefer: Did he have red hair? 'Cause I feel like...
Em Schulz: Was he naked?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God! This is getting so weird.
Em Schulz: If he mention... If he mention being naked at work and then killing your co-worker, that's like... That's a lot of information. Like I would have just no gone to work with him that day.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Not gone to work with him. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess hindsight's 20/20, right? I mean, maybe... I don't know what was going through his mind.
Em Schulz: Christine, if you ever show up to a recording completely naked with a rock, I'm, I'm just gonna tell you to go take a nap. [laughter] I'd be like, "Girly, you're, you're really... The menty Bs before this were nothing like what's going on." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Uh, yeah. No. You know what? I'm not even gonna...
Em Schulz: I feel like I'm losing like... I feel like I'm losing people in the story. Like I feel like the listeners have lost...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like we've lost our grasp...
Em Schulz: Interest?
Christine Schiefer: On reality, sort of, and so it seems like...
Em Schulz: Every sentence makes no sense... I feel like I'm just... It's like I just wrote... It's like I had AI create random sentences.
Christine Schiefer: Precisely. And then it like started to go... You kept saying, "Add another sentence, add another sentence," and it got like more and more derailed.
Em Schulz: I promise we're almost done, so if people are losing interest, please hold on because I, I'm also confused. I also don't like it. I, I wish I had...
Christine Schiefer: I also don't understand what's going on.
Em Schulz: I wish I had more stability for you, but I, I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: I'm... Let's just... Let's just get through it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So it became one of the many unsolved deaths near the mountain that uh, that this... Oh, sorry. So sorry. That's a few down. Umm, so five years later...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say unsolved, umm, I heard a rock was involved, but okay. I suppose we could call it unsolved.
Em Schulz: Okay. So this co-worker killed his, his other co-worker and umm...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Then ran off into the woods after escaping custody. So they think he might have joined the wild man in the woods. Five years later, a hunter nearby was found dead. He was...
Christine Schiefer: [1:18:16.6] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Shot and then dragged several feet and his loaded gun was beside him to make it look like he hurt himself.
Christine Schiefer: Eww!
Em Schulz: People then started wondering how the killer would have snuck up on a skilled hunter with a gun in hand...
Christine Schiefer: Who's like hunting other things presumably. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then why the killer wasn't even robbed, including his own gun.
Christine Schiefer: Or why the killer... You mean why the hunter wasn't robbed.
Em Schulz: Why the hunter wasn't robbed. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: He's just a different kind of killer. I'm kidding. Don't, don't yell at me, people. I'm just kidding.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I just was like, "Wow, Em, that's a bold statement." [laughter] So the hunt...
Em Schulz: Well, so...
Christine Schiefer: Why the hunter was not robbed. I see.
Em Schulz: Yes, yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, modern hikers have reported uh, that the mystery triangle in the area also has caused phenomena like compasses and GPS systems to not work, people get turned around all the time in the woods. There are also strange voices that cut into music and conversations over the radio. So when you're talking... When you're walkie-talking with someone in your camp, people will just start talking that you don't know, and then fade away.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Isn't that fucking creepy as hell?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't like that.
Em Schulz: Like, so someone's listening, one, and they can interfere with your like radio line.
Christine Schiefer: At will. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Something, ghosts and malicious entities lead hikers astray, uh, until they have no hope of finding the trail again. There's also, of course, the local legend about a cult living on the mountain and killing people who discover them, which sounds very similar to the wild man theory.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, just, uh, maybe a little more organized and they've got a leader.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Like they have to pay to be there maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they, they pay their dues, I suppose. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, locals tell stories of occasionally encountering actual cult members in Bennington when they come down from the mountain for supplies. So the...
Christine Schiefer: They flash people?
Em Schulz: Oh. Well, I, I don't know if that's part of their initiation. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it's... They're being hazed. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But apparently, they are really aggressive if approached and tend to threaten people. So that does fit the story that there's wild people living out in the mountains willing to hurt people who come near their home.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if that's true, then yeah, totally.
Em Schulz: And then I'll end on this. It's just a random final theory that I'm sure kids tell around a campfire, is that allegedly, there's a door to hell on the mountain that opens up and draws people in and that could cause the luring of people astray.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's not the weirdest thing we've heard today, so honestly, why not?
Em Schulz: And that is The Bennington Triangle.
Christine Schiefer: That was very good, Em.
Em Schulz: I don't know if it was very good. I even lost myself halfway through.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: So I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's saying something. If we're like totally derailed ourselves by the story, then...
Em Schulz: It was... I, I'm sorry to the people who like logic and structure in the stories, 'cause that just was not it.
Christine Schiefer: To be fair, like you're here, so you should have known before you...
Em Schulz: But did you die? No. You're here.
Christine Schiefer: But did you die? Uh, also, Em, there's a hair on your microphone that I keep thinking is on my laptop. Umm, it's on the side by the camera. I don't know if anyone saw on YouTube, but like three different times I went like this to try and get it off the screen and I was like, "Oh my God, that's on Em's microphone."
Em Schulz: It was a cat hair. There's a lot of cats.
Christine Schiefer: That's why I thought it was mine. I was like, "Well, Em doesn't have cats," but I guess you're in a different...
Em Schulz: I, I'm actually... This room, one of the cats is uh, a big fan of. So, umm, so I know exactly which cat it was. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy, they're in trouble.
Em Schulz: Thank you for telling me. I'm sure that was bothering somebody except... Like also you, but...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it was fine. It wasn't, you know, did I die? No. Umm...
Em Schulz: Did you die? No.
Christine Schiefer: All right, Emothy, I have a story for you today that I requested, umm, from Saoirse to, to help me research because I wanted to do this since, well, for a very long time. Umm, there's a couple of stories coming up that, for some reason, I felt were like nods to early episodes in which I said I would someday do these stories. And then as I was researching BTK a couple weeks ago, umm, I kind of remember... These guys were mentioned and I was like, "Oh shit, I've been wanting to cover them since February of 2017." So...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Here we are many years later. Umm, the first one I'm gonna do is Harvey Glatman. He is also known as the Glamour Girl Slayer or the Lonely Hearts Killer.
Em Schulz: Oh, my. Okay. I've heard of... I think I've heard of Lonely Heart, Hearts Killers, but I think I'm just thinking of Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart band.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah, good, interesting reference. I was gonna... I, I thought I knew where you were going. I didn't. Umm, 'cause there are several types of... Like lonely hearts killer is also, I think, like a category of serial killer.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and I'm pretty sure it's people who like seek out victims in classifieds or, you know, people who are looking for, for companionship or romance become the victims, if that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like a lonely hearts killer, they're targeting people who are lonely. So here we go. This is the story of Harvey Glatman. So he was born in the Bronx, uh, at the end of 1927...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: On the eve of the Great Depression. That's fun.
Em Schulz: Oh, thank God. He came at the right time.
Christine Schiefer: He came at the worst time. Umm, when he was 5 years old, this is just a fun fact, he had his tonsils and adenoids removed.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, have you ever... You had your tonsils taken out, right?
Em Schulz: I had. Like it sucked.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I heard it... Were, were you a kid or an adult?
Em Schulz: I was an adult. When you're a kid, it's not that bad, but when you're...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I feel like I've heard it's so much worse as an adult.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God, it's so much worse. It's... And uh, you get fooled, you get bamboozled because you haven't had Your.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause you think, "Oh, all kids do that."
Em Schulz: No, no, no, because... They tell you it's gonna suck, but they don't tell you it's like a 10-day healing process, and the first four are kinda easy breezy...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And it's day five that kicks your ass because that's when the scab forms, or, or for the last four days, the scab has been forming and then on the fourth day...
Christine Schiefer: And now it's... I'm gonna scream.
Em Schulz: It falls off and you swallow it.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, Em, stop.
Em Schulz: It's literally like this... It's a big...
Christine Schiefer: Em...
Em Schulz: And also, when... It's blue because it's...
Christine Schiefer: Em...
Em Schulz: 'Cause it's soggy from being wet.
Christine Schiefer: All right, I'm done. I'm leaving.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think you need to understand, I'm actually really gonna show up naked with a rock the next time you see me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It really... It's... It is...
Christine Schiefer: I can't handle... [laughter]
Em Schulz: No. It's as disgusting... It's worse than you're even imagining 'cause you feel it happen, and then uh, you hope it happens...
Christine Schiefer: Is it 'cause you got stressed a lot? Like, why did you get them out?
Em Schulz: I literally... I was like, anything is better than not getting my tonsils out. 'Cause I had horrible tonsil stones.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is that? Don't tell me. I don't wanna know. I don't... I literally can't handle any more information, okay.
Em Schulz: The tonsil stone... You probably had one. People get them a little bit every now and then. It's like... It's not like a... Like every now and then a tonsil stone will show up in someone's mouth where like it's just kind of like impacted food over time. Have you ever seen like one of those like white dots come out of your mouth, when you press it, it smells like ass? No?
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so.
Em Schulz: So I had really... When you have tonsillitis, or at least, I don't know if there's multiple versions, what I had though was my tonsils, if you look in the back of my throat, it looked porous, like a sponge, like there's all these holes, and so food kept getting trapped in them and the only way...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: This is so foul, but I kinda secretly loved it. The only way to get the food out was literally sticking your finger in the back of your throat and popping it like sits and getting all the tonsil stones out of your throat...
Christine Schiefer: What in the literal fuck is going on here?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I like, I like pimple-popping stuff, so I was like, "Oh, I wanna see it come out of my throat." But like...
Christine Schiefer: That doesn't really bother me as much. I mean, the...
Em Schulz: They were like huge. They were huge. And it was like, especially if you eat like bread or potatoes or something that like could easily get stuck in little crevices...
Christine Schiefer: The only things I eat, yeah, great.
Em Schulz: And for days, it would just like compact on itself, so then you have like this little ball of like old food, and so when it came out of your throat, it was just old food that was like beginning to like rot.
Christine Schiefer: Like, how big is it when you said like, oh, if it came out of your mouth? Like how big?
Em Schulz: Uh, mine were always like the size of like uh...
Christine Schiefer: I'm trying to think of like...
Em Schulz: Like a Tic Tac. Like a Tic Tac.
Christine Schiefer: That big.
Em Schulz: Yeah, they're bad. And they were all... And there was many and often. It was very bad.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds big.
Em Schulz: And because I was always pressing on my throat on the inside, like I was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm sure that didn't fucking help.
Em Schulz: I was, I was irritating it, so I was getting sore throats all the time 'cause I was putting my like dirty fingers into like holes in my throat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Like it was very bad. And so I was like, "Please get my tonsils out. Please take them out." 'Cause otherwise if I didn't push on it, I could feel like food stuck in my throat, but in the walls of my throat, so I couldn't even swallow and put it down.
Christine Schiefer: That's horrifying. So... But... So... But it helped, right? Like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. I'm totally fine now. I don't get tonsil stones anymore. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank God.
Em Schulz: But I remember like...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I can't witness... I can't witness it and survive to tell the tale. I just know I can't.
Em Schulz: It was crazy. In college, it was like, like a sick little like thing I, I would do is like look in the mirror and just like pop all my like throat stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you're gonna say it's like a party trick, and I was like, "Em... "
Em Schulz: No, no.
Christine Schiefer: "Once again, why don't you drink beer like a normal fucking person? Okay?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know it's disgusting. I know it's disgusting, but I'm also one of those people who likes all the like gross like...
Christine Schiefer: No. That doesn't... Like that doesn't really bother me, the, the... It's a... It's a scab that really makes me wanna just not...
Em Schulz: It is... They... Uh, a few doctors don't even really tell you about that part because they know it's disgusting and you just don't even wanna know. A lot...
Christine Schiefer: Like how do you even say it with a straight face? I'd be like, "Yeah... "
Em Schulz: A scab the size of your entire throat is gonna fall off in your mouth. Yeah. Umm, it's a...
Christine Schiefer: Like the, the thought of that makes me really wanna vomit.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, so the reason day five sucks is when the scab falls off, now your throat is raw all over again. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: So all of a sudden it feels like horrible, horrible, horrible strep throat.
Christine Schiefer: Like probably the worst sore throat you've ever, ever, ever, ever had.
Em Schulz: Because your entire throat is open and exposed and trying to heal. So I remember like day one through four, I was like eating like normal. I was talking like normal. I was like, "Oh, this is like such a breeze. They were saying it's gonna be such a pain in the ass." And then one morning I woke up and I knew the scab had fallen off because like the... It really felt like someone had stabbed me in the throat a million times.
Christine Schiefer: I just felt somebody out there go, "Motherfucker," because they probably have this coming up. I know there's the... Statistically, someone listening to this has this procedure coming up. Umm...
Em Schulz: I just... I truly like... I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I guess it's good you're warning them.
Em Schulz: I think I just heard someone throw up, actually. So...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was me, okay, 'cause you're making me ill. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I will say it was the best decision I ever made. Like in, in hindsight, it was totally worth it.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, like I got lasers in my eyes and like that literally didn't feel like anything. And so to me, this is just...
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: Heinous. Umm...
Em Schulz: Anyway, did everyone like 10 minutes of me talking [laughter] about that?
Christine Schiefer: Well, you know what, it's funny you say that. I mean, it's not funny at all. It's just foul and disgusting. But, umm, basically, I give you this bullet point about, uh, having his tonsils removed at five years old...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, just as a way to say that seemed to be the only like health issue this guy ever faced, like the only...
Em Schulz: Oh. So he had a week of problems.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Is that a phrase? I like it.
Em Schulz: Is it? A week of problems? I don't know. I also came up with something else recently that I thought was pretty good.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. You came up with that?
Em Schulz: Christine, stop.
Christine Schiefer: You just said it and then we're like, "Oh, you'll just figure out what it means."
Em Schulz: Well, it's... Yeah, I just said it.
Christine Schiefer: I like it. A week of... You just had a week of problems.
Em Schulz: Christine!
Christine Schiefer: I've never heard that before.
Em Schulz: Okay. I have another one that I came up with for me and Allison. I call us, umm... I, I... This... It's probably not even that good, but I think it's cool. Uh, I call Allison and me, uh, Allison and I just a pair of let-me-justs because we are... Whenever we're about to leave the house, we go, "Oh, let me just do this," "Oh, let me just turn off... Oh, let me just turn of the light," "Let me just... "
Christine Schiefer: That's good.
Em Schulz: And so every time we're doing that, I'm like, "Oh, we're just a pair of let-me-justs, aren't we?"
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's so real though. Like, "Oh, let me just go pee real quick." "Oh, let me just go grab my... "
Em Schulz: "Let me just get the keys." "Let me just turn the lights off." "Let me just... "
Christine Schiefer: "Let me just check and find my wallet."
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was like... Uh, it made so much sense.
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: I was like, "Oh, we're just a pair of let-me-justs."
Christine Schiefer: That's really clever, Em. I like that.
Em Schulz: I'm so good... Thank you. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: You don't even need to use words like contrived. You come up with your own beautiful vocabulary.
Em Schulz: I don't need to use words, bitch. I'm just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, no. [laughter] You speak your own fuckin' language. Umm, anyway, so I tell you this to say, he was typically like a very healthy, I mean, I hate to use the word, normal child.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like he, you know, had the usual stuff, chicken pox, whatever, he got his tonsils removed. But otherwise, his mom was like, "No, like, he was well-adjusted, he was well-behaved, and he showed no red flags at first."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So at 3 years old, uh, Harvey was in his parents' bedroom, and his mom walked in and saw a sight that she didn't quite know what to do with. Umm...
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. Was he in... Was he looking in the mirror and popping all of his throat zits?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, honestly, Em, you could probably just insert that here. Yes. Umm...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That is a troubling behavior.
Em Schulz: He's being a couple of let-me-justs, so like...
Christine Schiefer: He's being a let-me-just. So he had tied a piece of twine around his penis.
Em Schulz: Oh my.
Christine Schiefer: And then attached the other end to a drawer...
Em Schulz: Oh my.
Christine Schiefer: And was like, yeah, yanking on it, right?
Em Schulz: Like in a sexual way? Like, like jerking off without using his hands?
Christine Schiefer: So... No. So it was almost like uh, he enjoyed the pain of it, like a, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But he's 3, so also it's like he probably doesn't really know what he's...
Em Schulz: Like he could just be exploring his body.
Christine Schiefer: Doing. Yes, right. And like, it, of course, is normal for kids to do that, umm, but this was just such like a very shocking thing for his mother to walk in on that she thought, "You know what, maybe this is just him experimenting." Like I mean, she handled it, as far as I can tell from the research, she handled it as well as any parent would, right? She's like, "Okay, I mean, hopefully he's just experimenting and not gonna hurt himself and... "
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: "That's the end of it." Unfortunately, that was not the end of it. So when he was around 11 years old, this was in 1938, uh, his parents left him alone for the day, and when they came home, they saw that his neck was completely raw and bruised and burned.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And it seemed to be inflammation caused by rope burns.
Em Schulz: Wow. So he's...
Christine Schiefer: So...
Em Schulz: Is he doing this to himself?
Christine Schiefer: He sure is. Yes.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: This is, uh, some auto-eroticism and uh, it's starting at a very young age. And there was an episode about Harvey Glatman on umm, the podcast show, Serial Killers, and they mentioned that typically, umm, this kind of auto-eroticism asphyxiation, that kind of thing, that interest usually isn't peaked in at least, traditionally, young men until age 19 is like about the average, which is a fun fact for you all. Umm, and I guess one theory that they put out there was that perhaps when he was playing with string as a little kid, like maybe he had like cemented that kind of fetish without realizing it at a young age by playing with like rope and twine, and then it kind of escalated really quickly and by age 11, he was already...
Em Schulz: Yeah, makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Full-blown, you know... So perhaps that's what happened. But either way, you know, it's a jarring thing to come home, find your 11-year-old like having, you know, tied a rope around his own neck.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So this is kind of the, the beginning of when problems start to arise. That was the year they also relocated to Denver, Colorado from the Bronx. So when they relocated, Harvey, you know, being a preteen, he was really struggling socially. Umm, he had an extremely negative self-image. He had pretty, pretty average acne, just like any, you know, teenager might. But his father, uh, caught him masturbating one day and told him that that would make his acne worse.
Em Schulz: Oh, fuck... So wait a minute. Why is that man with that woman who was like being sexually positive and this guy is like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. And I don't know that she's even being sexually positive. I think she just saw that and hoped like, "Okay, let's just hope that doesn't escalate." [laughter] Like I think she just said like, "What am I supposed to do? Like it's a 3-year-old." But yeah. So very...
Em Schulz: Either way, gross on the dad's part.
Christine Schiefer: Bad move. Bad move. Like trying to like curb his masturbating, right? Like you know, I feel like back decades ago, probably pretty recently even, it was very much kind of ingrained in you that that's a bad thing to do, especially if you're, you know, religious or what have you.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so I'm not surprised that his dad... But you know, his dad probably thought, "Oh, I'm just doing like a harmless thing. I'll just tell him like, 'Oh, this makes you sick, or... '" I mean, when I was little, like my aunt told me when I picked my nose, like it's gonna... My nose is gonna get longer and longer...
Em Schulz: Right. Or like cross your eyes and they'll get stuck that way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I imagine that's kind of the intention behind it, but it was obviously extremely damaging. Umm, and so now on top of these urges he had, he felt responsible and ashamed about creating his own, like acne, his own self-image problems. Umm, he was ashamed about his body development and one source claims, I don't know how true this is, that he was somehow also told that masturbating was a sign of homosexuality, which then in turn also doubled down on his shame, you know, back in the day, at least about masturbating. Despite this, he couldn't really help himself and he continued to secretly indulge in masochistic behaviors. Umm, which of course, not necessarily abnormal or wrong, but physically dangerous nonetheless. I mean, you know, there are adults whose lives are accidentally taken by autoerotic asphyxiation and let alone an 11-year-old, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like that's, you don't really know, tech, the safety technique behind. I mean, it's just a dangerous thing to do.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Totally.
Christine Schiefer: So what he would do is he would typically tie a rope around his own neck, and then he would loop it over an elevated pipe in the bathtub, or a ceiling rafter in the attic, and then he would pull on the rope to choke himself for pleasure. Uh...
Em Schulz: Okay. But talk about upper arm strength.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, it's like, that seems, yeah, that's, it's...
Em Schulz: If one thing came from it, you got upper arm strength I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Good for you. Yeah. It's, uh, it's just a, it's, it's, I imagine it's a scary thing for your parents who, in, especially in, well, what are we the 30s like to, to discover you doing. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's also, I feel like, umm, I don't know what the right thing would be, but part of me wants to be like, let's educate ourselves on how to do this without hurting ourselves or something like, but in the 1930s, there was certainly no source material on that.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And that's why I like kind of give the parents a little bit of a break because like, what the hell are they supposed to do?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
S3: Like, you know, they were taught something even more outdated and and and backwards.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So like, they're just trying to reroute him and like, what, you know, they don't know. And so even psychologists didn't know. Right? So it's, it's, uh, I imagine it was a really tough position to be in. Umm, and his parents were noticing that he was getting these injuries around his neck, and one day they walked in on him doing this, and were like, no, like, that's enough. We're taking you to the doctor because they're like, something must be wrong. So they, she, the mom takes him to the family doctor who of course is zero help and says, and you gotta give him, I guess, some slack too. What did they teach him in medical school about an 11-year-old?
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: You know having... It's, it's like, I don't know where to even pinpoint the, the biggest problems here, they're kind of all over the place, but the doctor said, oh, it's probably just a phase and he'll grow out of it. And so they thought, okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Let's, let's hope that's what happens. So she was concerned, of course, but, uh, the doctor just gave her some pills to give him, which we don't even know what pills they were.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like sugar pills or like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Don't touch your neck pills. I don't...
Christine Schiefer: Like cocaine or whatever they were...
Em Schulz: Heroin. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mercury. Yeah. I, I don't know what pills, but he prescribed some unspecified pills and basically told the parents like, just ride it out. This is probably a phase. So Harvey is described as being kind of a scrawny guy with buck teeth and big ears, and he was extremely self-conscious about his own looks. He struggled to make friends and he was terrified of girls. His mom even said he would cross the street to avoid walking past girls on the sidewalk.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and, you know, instead of maybe a more healthy coping mechanism, Harvey began channeling his inner turmoil into very intense anger and resentment toward women.
Em Schulz: Classic.
Christine Schiefer: Classic. So he grew resentful of women because of his own inferiority complexes. I mean, watch Criminal Minds, and you'll get the idea. Uh, he started breaking and entering into women's homes at a very young age. I'm talking like 12 years old. He starts breaking...
Em Schulz: Breaking in?
Christine Schiefer: Breaking and entering into women's homes. And he would steal small items, like, not even necessarily anything valuable, just like lingerie, umm, like random stuff sitting around just as like a kind of a power move, I guess, or like a way to claim ownership over women.
Em Schulz: Wow. At 12. That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And he eventually stole a handgun, and that's sort of when he realized like, Hey, I could, I could do this bigger and and worse.
Em Schulz: Well, sure. It was like the second that you were getting away with it with a smaller thing, you have to...
Christine Schiefer: Precisely.
Em Schulz: What's it like? You have to...
Christine Schiefer: Escalate.
Em Schulz: Escalate.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I mean, at 11 he's already experimenting with autoerotic asphyxiation, and now he is...
Em Schulz: Now he's stealing guns and underwear.
Em Schulz: Literally. And, and so it just really escalates, like you said. So instead of being afraid of women, now Harvey kind of turned this into aggression and, uh, he became bolder, uh, because like you said, he got away with it and he escalated once again to stalking women instead of just like breaking into their empty homes.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it was said he would, sorry, let me say that again. It was said that even when he was out walking around, if he like, bumped into a woman, he would just even be an asshole then. Like, he didn't even apologize if he like, shoved a woman by mistake or like, I mean, not many guys don't, I guess, but like you know like very...
Em Schulz: He was like an Incel in the making.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Like very intentionally harboring like terrible feelings.
Em Schulz: Like he would call women females for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Precisely. Yes. So finally, like I said, as a young teenager, like 12 years old, he escalated to stalking women home, breaking in and attacking them. He would force women into their bedrooms where he would tie them up with rope, gag them, and then sexually assault them. And once he reached high school, uh, he was still struggling socially, but then on the side he was doing these heinous activities.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and somehow still managed to do well academically. So, you know, if you think about the parents, it's like, oh, good. Like, he might be kind of awkward at school, but he is getting good grades, like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. They're like, well, he is, he's checking all the boxes that we were prepared to worry about.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right. Like, it doesn't necessarily... I mean, obviously if they had known what he was doing in his free time, but everything else seemed perfectly normal. Umm, he even participated in extracurriculars like Boy Scouts. And interestingly, that is where he had, uh, I guess that's where his fascination with ropes and knots deepened.
Em Schulz: I was literally about to say earlier I was gonna say like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Could, could it have started earlier? Because he was like, in in scouts or something where they were...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. That's also a theory that he was learning a lot about ropes. He had perhaps already cemented that sexual fixation as a child, not even meaning to obviously, and now kind of getting to interact with ropes and learning how to tie things, and that is probably a big part of it. Yes. So he also enjoyed like, pretty average, normal hobbies, like photography. He was a paper delivery boy. Like nothing that unusual. But in the off time, in the, in his free time, he was continuing these like heinous stalking and assaulting crimes at like, at age 13. I mean, he's a young kid.
Em Schulz: Was he like fully like essaying assaulting people or like, just hitting them? Or like, what was, do we know what type of assault?
Christine Schiefer: I think it really varied. And I think part of the reason we say sexually assaulting is because there was such a range.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And, you know, one of the, I, I'm, I'm trying to get better, and Saoirse made a note of this too, like, I'm trying to get better at really understanding like the nuances between the different terminology. Umm, and so I don't, I I do know that it's, it's pretty clearly stated that he at this point was sexually assaulting women. I know one particular case, umm, where he like masturbated while like having a woman forcibly tied up.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, you know, things like that ranged from that and...
Em Schulz: Yeah. He's all over the place.
Christine Schiefer: All over the place. And, and you know, part of it is too, I imagine in the '30s, they maybe didn't so specifically differentiate or specifically name it, umm, for what it was. So we don't have all the details maybe to make it clear which level it was.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But at this point, we do know, at the very least, he's sexually assaulting women repeatedly. Umm, and at another point during this sort of ongoing hobby of his, he stole another gun and that's when he began targeting women in the street at night. And he would force them to take their clothes off, uh, at gunpoint. Just to humiliate them.
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And he would mug them at the same time. So he was taking money and then humiliating women. Umm, and this was kind of his ammo so the police kind of caught on to this pretty quickly.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, in May of 1945, police caught him at age 17 breaking into a home. Uh, he had a handgun and a rope with him. He actually also, side note, fun fact, not really. He was known to carry a length of rope with him through his entire childhood, which, you know, like looking back, it's like, oh God. But at the time, I mean, he is a kid in Boy Scouts and he has some rope on him. You don't necessarily...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Think too much about it.
Em Schulz: Like, I, I would've thought like, oh, you must be in scouts and you're practicing knots, or...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I...
Christine Schiefer: Trying to get your badge.
Em Schulz: Or like, you're learning magic 'cause there's a lot of rope tricks. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Like, So I guess there's gotta be a reason for why that's just like, or, but it feels even weirder to know that maybe he just wanted to like, put his hand in his pocket and feel it, you know? Like...
Christine Schiefer: And just have it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Just have it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It was almost like he, he, he carried it with him, umm, at all times, whether he was like at school, whether he was just at home doing homework, or of course whether he was breaking into, uh, homes. And...
Em Schulz: I wonder if it was to make him, like, feel like he was in control, because...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: If something went wrong, he could always use it against somebody?
Christine Schiefer: Like a token or like a ammo like some sort of like power.
Em Schulz: Like a, like a we, a weapon of sorts. Like a...
Christine Schiefer: Right. To feel like he's prepared for, for any encounter.
Em Schulz: Be prepared, that's what they say.
Christine Schiefer: He, oh God, yeah. I didn't even think of that. Yikes. So police caught him breaking into this home with a handgun and rope. Umm, and when they questioned him, he like, pretty immediately admitted to several other robberies, but of course left out the sexual assaults. So he was only charged for the robberies, and his parents paid his bail to keep him out of, out of jail. So a month later, he really couldn't stand quitting for that long. Uh, a month later, after he was, uh, let out of jail, he abducted a woman, tied her up, drove her out of town and assaulted her.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But then he let her go. And in fact, he actually went so far as to call her a taxi. And...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She got in the taxi, they went their separate ways. Fortunately, he let her go. Unfortunately, he learned pretty quickly that he could never let his victims go again.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Because she immediately, of course, went to the police. And when she saw his mugshot, because remember he had been arrested for robberies before. She said, that's the guy. And he was once again arrested. And despite this, and the multiple arrests, uh, Harvey graduated high school with good grades, and he was a model student.
Em Schulz: Imagine being like a teacher and like knowing his record and being like, what is going on with this guy when he leaves my English class? Like, where...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's...
Em Schulz: Where's he going?
Christine Schiefer: It's reminding me of when BTK would, you know, stalk his teacher outside her, her bedroom at night also with a rope.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But like, nobody knew that. Right? Like, in this case, they know he's doing these things like they know he was arrested for sexual assault. They know he was arrested for burglary robbery and he's still in school. So it's, it's bizarre.
Em Schulz: That's so wild 'cause in today's world, it just, I don't, I feel like that wouldn't happen.
Christine Schiefer: I hope not.
Em Schulz: Or maybe it would, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: I just hope not. Yeah. But of course, he's still struggling with other aspects of his life. And now that his predatory nature was exposed, uh, he began seeing a psychiatrist who assigned him what we now know is an outdated diagnosis of split personality.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Because once again, this is the '40s. Uh, we don't really know what that would've translated to in today's world. We can't, you know, assess him from, from here. Uh, but apparently Harvey was deeply resentful of his peers and believed that nobody liked him, and everybody had it out for him. And his resentment just grew and grew and grew. And eventually he was sentenced to up to a year in prison for his crimes. And when he was in prison this time, another physician examined him and disagreed with the split personality diagnosis and said, I actually don't think this guy's suffering any mental illness at all. And he knows right from wrong. So big 180.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And once again, we do not know, we can't...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Diagnose him from here, obviously. So Harvey turned 18 in prison, and he served eight months of his sentence. Upon his release, his mother took him and moved with him to Albany, New York, where he continued to stalk, rob and assault women at night. Umm, he had, uh, a real gun that he had stolen, and he also had fake gun, fake handguns that he would use. And in one attempted assault, a nurse named Florence Hayden managed to escape. And that is how we have some of this information so...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Shortly after that, two more women that Harvey targeted also got away and reported the incident to the police. So now, even though he knows not to let his victims go on his own, out of his own volition, they're either escaping or making, uh, making their getaway and reporting this to police. And all of a sudden three reports come in of this guy and what he looks like, and police are like, cool, we're on it. So they arrested him, obviously. Uh, uh, again. And this is...
Em Schulz: How many arrests is this now? Like three or four?
Christine Schiefer: This is, this is the third.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: He's now in, in Albany. So he, he was arrested twice in Denver, uh, sentenced to prison. And then, so maybe it's a fourth. You know, it's hard. It's hard to say. I'm not sure if it's the, oh, this is the third. It's a third.
Em Schulz: Does he ever say, is there ever an interview where he's saying like, I know what I was doing was wrong, because like, part of me feels like he still has some sort of like, empathy for, or sympathy for these people. And like, 'cause he's like.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: He was calling the, the only reason he'd stopped calling cops or calling cabs is because he didn't wanna be busted and arrested again. Like, I'm not trying to say he's like a good person. I just.
Christine Schiefer: No no.
Em Schulz: I feel like there's like still like a weird naivete.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Or like a kindness or like a young innocence.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you're on to something because with one of his victims, he, after sexually assaulting her, had her lay in bed with him and cuddle and watch comedy movies. And he just thought this was like an intimate moment they were sharing. So...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: There was definitely some wires crossed, or at least a complete like, refusal to acknowledge what he was doing was fucked up.
Em Schulz: Sure, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. And I do know that what they, what they've said about him is that he did not want to kill people. That wasn't really part of, you know, his thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He wanted to sexually assault them, and then he learned the hard way, "that he couldn't let them live," or they would...
Em Schulz: Which is wild but like...
Christine Schiefer: He's sort like, well, I guess I had to kill them. There was no other choice. You know?
Em Schulz: That's wild. That his options were just stop sexually assaulting or fine, you can sexually assault, but you also have to kill them. And he was like, I guess killing is the only option for me.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: And you know, you know what's so wild is that BTK was sort of the reverse. Remember he said, oh, I would never, I would never rape someone.
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: But he murdered children.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right? So it's like, wow, you guys have a twisted sense of fucking...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Morality or whatever you wanna call it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's why I kind of, this is like so sick, but like imagine like a conversation between the two of them would be 'cause they would have to like...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Agree to disagree on incredibly fucked up things.
Christine Schiefer: They probably think the other one is a monster, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, why would you want, why would you get off on murdering a child? Well, why would you rape someone and then just murder them out of convenience.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like I mean, I don't know. It's just totally wackadoo.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but because these three people managed to escape, umm, he was arrested pretty quickly in Albany and he pleaded guilty to sexual assault and was sentenced to 5-10 years this time and was transferred to a maximum security prison in New York.
Em Schulz: He wasn't even like on the run after these things, he would just go home to the address that the police already had on file for him?
Christine Schiefer: Correct.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, this time he had moved...
Em Schulz: I feel like he's not thinking it through that. Like, this is bad. I feel like he needs to...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, he's literally like 18, so it's like...
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What do they say? Like, your fucking frontal lobe isn't even formed yet. Like it's a teenager, which already the decision making you have to question.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then on top of it, all this illegal and horrible assault...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And shit. It's like, well, this is just a recipe for disaster.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in prison, Harvey was once again evaluated by mental health professionals, and this time he was diagnosed with antisocial traits, psycho psychopathic personality, uh, sexually perverted impulses, which again, the '40s, sexually perverted meant a totally different thing, you know, especially when it comes to like medical terminology.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I am pretty sure for a long time being gay was a perversion, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like in the books. So...
Em Schulz: Just one book. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Just one, it's one book. Actually, I think a lot of books.
Em Schulz: A lot of books. A lot of books.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so yeah, it's like, we just don't know, like three different doctors have already diagnosed him with multiple different things and have all contradicted one another. We don't fucking know what the deal is. But either way, Harvey was a habitual offender against women and that much we do know, uh, in prison, just like he had in high school. Interestingly, he followed all the rules and he excelled. And the prison guards loved him because he just did what they said. And he was a grade A prisoner. And so when he was 21 years old, he was paroled for good behavior.
Em Schulz: So I feel like... I feel like, was he? Yeah. I feel like if there aren't women around, of course he's gonna have good behavior because...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: The, the people he wants to hurt aren't around.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: And also I'm sure there's something there about like the male gaze of like, like having men think you're great and wanting to kiss up to them, or like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Feeling like you're, uh, like they're scarier and stronger and more dominant, and so you can, you yield faster or I, I don't know. Like...
Christine Schiefer: And it, it seems like he was always able to blend in in that way, even when he was socially awkward. He was at least getting A's, he was in extracurriculars, he was in Boy Scouts.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So like, even before he knew like, oh, I wanna, I want something out of this. I wanna get outta prison. Like, he always was following the rules and like sticking to societal norms.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like within those boundaries. So it's kind of weird. It it almost to me, I can see why back then somebody would've said split personality because it seems almost like during the day you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He's this guy.
Em Schulz: Only around men, he's shockingly not a sexual abuser.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what did, uh, BTK call it? Like factor X, like...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's not me. It's like a totally separate thing, you know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so I'm sure that was probably part of it too. Umm, but either way he was paroled because he was such a good boy in prison.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and he was released to the custody of his parents once again, and he moved back to Denver with his mother back to their family home. So per the conditions of his custody, he also had to get a full-time job and remain in contact with the court system. And he was subject to inspections for four and a half years by his parole officer. In 1952, which would've been four years later, Harvey's father died from, uh, complications related to diabetes. And this made it really hard on his mother.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She had to kind of, umm, suddenly foot all the bills, suddenly make, you know, put food on the table for her and her son, who she was in charge of now. And because Harvey was at the end of his parole conditions, he decided he was ready to move out of his mom's house and kind of get out from under her wing. So he had so far managed to put a pause on stalking and attacking women during this period where he was living with his mother.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, he didn't even break and enter during this time. Like he just paused.
Em Schulz: Wow. Bare minimum. Good job, man.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Wow. A plus.
Em Schulz: I didn't even rob anybody.
Christine Schiefer: Blue fucking ribbon. And we're all so proud of you. We don't know if that was because he knew, like his parole officer was watching. We don't know if that was like living with his mom and losing his dad. Like, we don't know why. Umm, but who cares? He just stopped doing it. And unfortunately he started up again in January of 1957.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He is now 30 years old, and he decides he finally has his freedom. He finally gets to do what he wants. He's not under the thumb of the court system, and he moves to Los Angeles. So it was in Los Angeles where Harvey ultimately escalated his crimes from just sadism and sexual assault to murder.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like I said, he had done some extracurriculars in high school as a perfectly normal little boy, and he got back into photography in LA. Right. And that seems to be like a fitting lifestyle choice if you're moving to LA in the '50s, I imagine...
Em Schulz: And if you have some like, uh, adjacent voyeurism abilities like...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And so it was like the perfect cover.
Em Schulz: Hobby.
Christine Schiefer: Like the... Yeah. Like the perfect hobby, "to take up for him." He advertised himself as a legitimate professional photographer seeking models, and he told them these would be sexual, but fully clothed photo shoots for pulp magazines. So he would basically tell women, I work for a pulp magazine. And they're, you know, basically, I don't know if you've seen these kind of photos from back then, but like, they would have women kind of in like a, in bondage sort of...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, and they'd be, but they'd still have clothes on. Like they weren't in the nude.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But this was just kind of a thing. This was the, this was one of the things back then in, in the magazine, in the dirty magazines.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he tells models, hey, we're gonna do this, but don't worry, you can be fully clothed. Umm, but I am gonna tie you up. And it's just a photo shoot for the magazine I work for. In August of 1957, he reached out to Judy, whose full name is Judith Ann Dull, and she was a 19-year-old model who lived with two other young models in LA and the three of them were really close and helped each other find work as often as possible. She was estranged from her soon to be ex-husband, and was very overwhelmed by the stress of a messy divorce. And on top of that, her soon to be ex-husband was also trying to take sole custody of their 14 month old daughter Susan. And he had actually come to her home and taken Susan while she was working and left a note saying like, I'll see you in court. So she is in like...
Em Schulz: Whoa.
Christine Schiefer: Just utter turmoil and her ex has taken her baby and she is low on funds and just trying to make it and trying to get out of this messy relationship. So she's trying to make some money to fund her legal battle and prove that she could support her daughter. And because she was a beautiful young woman and modeling was all the rage, uh, she was able to get a good amount of money modeling doing gigs in LA.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So when she hears from Harvey, who used the pseudonym Johnny Glenn, uh...
Em Schulz: Classy.
Christine Schiefer: He seemed perfect, classy, perfectly normal, perfectly friendly. He actually came and met her roommates and they all said, yeah, he seems like a great guy. And he takes her to his studio for the photo shoot.
Em Schulz: Oh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: He had actually outfitted his apartment to look like a studio. And, uh, he basically claimed the shoot was for this detective magazine, and she had to be tied up and kind of look like a, a a, what do you call it? A distress, A maiden in a damsel in distress.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and that was kind of the vibe, like, oh, just look scared, I'll tie you up. So he ties her up and gags her.
Em Schulz: Oh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: And of course now he has her exactly where he wants her. And, uh, he turns, and when he turns back, he's holding a gun.
Em Schulz: [2:02:09.1] ____ gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And at first she's confused. She's like, wait, is this part of it? Like what...
Em Schulz: Like, is it a prop? Is that like...
Christine Schiefer: Right, is that a prop? Like, what is going on here? But very quickly she realizes, no, no, her life is in danger. He rapes her multiple times at gunpoint.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and then he forced her into his car, uh, drove her out to the desert and strangled her with rope.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he left her body there. And, and he thought leaving her body out there, he said, no one will ever find her. It's so remote. Of course that's not quite what happened.
Em Schulz: It's not like down the fucking street.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, Judy's friends and roommates were like, hey, where the hell is Judy?
Em Schulz: Also, we literally met you. Like, that's wild that he didn't have like a...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: A disguise or...
Christine Schiefer: He did that often.
Em Schulz: That's almost so cocky, so cocky that you can get away with it. And he was getting away with it.
Christine Schiefer: Like he has multiple mugshots out there. Right? It's not like, like, oh, there's no photo evidence of him anywhere. Like the police, I mean, at least in Albany and Denver have mugshots of this guy. But yeah, I guess a fake name is all he needed.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Judy's friends and roommates, of course, immediately get concerned when she doesn't come home. Umm, and of course, because she is a beautiful young woman, uh, this is a very compelling news story, and journalists are putting this story on the front page along with her missing case. And when her ex-husband was quickly ruled out, uh, detectives were like, okay, we'll look into this Johnny Glenn fella. But there was just nothing they could do. Like, even though the roommates...
Em Schulz: Also his name was fake, like they couldn't even look him up.
Christine Schiefer: His name was fake. Exactly. And like they they didn't really have much else to go on. So of course Harvey is like, great, at it again. And he next pursues, this is why he has this name Ads for singles of the Lonely Hearts Club.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, he joins this LA club where people who are seeking companionship, umm, you know, put themselves out there. And this is where he arranges a blind date with 24-year-old divorcee, Shirley Ann Bridgeford. And Shirley had, uh, two sons under the age of five. She really wanted to date someone who was serious about a relationship and becoming a parent to her kids. And when she heard that Harvey, who was now using the name George Williams...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Wanted to take her out for a date. She was very excited, very nervous. And she arranged for him to pick her up at home where her mother...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Her two sisters and her brother-in-Law, all came to meet him and sign off before.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So he is seriously pulling off this like, good boy, like following the rules.
Em Schulz: This is almost weirdly like, it's, it's like so stupid. It just might work. You know what I mean? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. It's like outrageous. He's meeting the entire extended family and it works for him.
Em Schulz: I feel like I just watch a lot to Law and Order, and I feel like if they had someone who was just showing up everywhere with his face, so obviously in like, how is, how is he not being caught? This is...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's, it's pretty wild. And I, I, I don't know, I imagine being in LA probably helped because...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it was just a looser place in the '50s, you know? And like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Especially in a world of like free, of like, umm, of gigs, like gig work, like photography and modeling, I imagine there's just a lot of like moving parts, moving people, umm, fake names too...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Probably. Uh, so yeah, I'm not sure. But it, whatever he was doing unfortunately was really working because all of them, all of her family said, this guy seems legit, George, nice to meet you.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And she got in his car and, uh, he took her on a date. So in the car, their plan originally was to go dancing together, but in the car, Harvey said, 'Hey, why don't we go out for a dinner and take a little drive instead?" So she says, I mean, all right. And he takes her to the desert and that is not the kind of date...
Em Schulz: If someone... Of all the locations in Los Angeles, if someone said, let's go for a drive, and they took me to a desert, I'd be like, turn around. You missed something.
Christine Schiefer: Forget it.
Em Schulz: Where's the view?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say the, the, the Americana is back there.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: The movie, the AMC is back there. I don't wanna leave any further than this. So he took her out to the desert, and of course at this point she knows things are not good. Umm, he rapes her at gunpoint, he forces her to pose for photographs.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, which is just deeply troubling to me. And, uh, then he strangled her to death like he had with Judy, and he took photos of that as well. So he...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And interestingly, I learned something which I did not realize, and I'm kind of embarrassed, I didn't know this, but I guess there are two forms of, umm, so you know how you say like, oh, a serial killer takes a trophy home?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I guess in this case it's not a trophy because a trophy is actually meant as like a brag, like to show off what you've done...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Almost as like a, like a haha got 'em.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But this is more something for his own like secret pleasure later.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like he wasn't gonna show, show this to anyone or share it. Umm, which I guess is a different thing from a trophy. So I didn't realize that. But...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Fun fact for you, in the worst way. So Shirley's family, of course, report her missing and are like, umm, this guy named George came over and took her on a date and she never came back. And police are like, well, that sounds a whole lot like our friend Johnny Glenn. So, uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ding ding ding.
Christine Schiefer: Ding ding, ding ding, I think we're, we're putting this together. Umm, but of course they have no way to track them, track him down. Like there's just nothing they can do with these fake names. And so they suspected all they could do is suspect he would kill again and wait until he did. And that is exactly what happened. So this time Harvey targeted another model, 24-year-old Ruth Mercado. And Ruth was born in New York. She had served in the Women's Air Force, uh, before she was honorably discharged and relocated to California. And people described her as kind and reliable. She was hustling out there, she was trying to make it in the film industry, but as a Mexican woman, she had dark hair, dark complexion, and at the time, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's probably still, definitely still, you know, the industry is prioritizing light skinned blonde women. And so at the time, she was not considered an all-American girl in the traditional sense that...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: You might see as [laughter], you know, in a, in a modeling gig.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she was struggling. She was trying to make it as an actress and, uh, you know, uphill battle. And so to support herself, she modeled on the side, and she found pretty good success in the modeling world. And when she heard from Harvey, uh, under an assumed name again, uh, I don't know what name this time, I can only imagine, it's Bob Smith or something very stupid.
Em Schulz: Right. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, he entered her house under the pretense of a photo shoot. And like Judy and Shirley, uh, Harvey raped her, forced Ruth into his car at gunpoint, photographed her in the desert, and then strangled her to death.
Em Schulz: So he has found himself like a pretty solid MO at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. It's like, it's all kind of condensed into these steps now. He, yes, with the desert, the drive, the car, everything. So, Harvey, this is disturbing, and maybe goes to what you were saying about like, what is going on in his head. Uh, he later said he really liked Shirley, and he tried to talk himself out of murdering her, but he just couldn't manage.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Like, couldn't manage? Like...
Christine Schiefer: They couldn't manage to talk himself out of there. He's...
Em Schulz: Like, couldn't out logic himself?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like, he had the urge, or like, ugh.
Christine Schiefer: I think it meant, yeah, that's true. It's not totally clear. I'm pretty sure it was more like, well, I just couldn't think of another way, you know, I couldn't convince myself of any other way to like, spare her life. I just knew I had to do it. Is is the, at least the...
Em Schulz: I don't understand how an option is to just like, not do this to people. I don't understand how like...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: They've just said like, well, I'm backed in a corner. It's like, you're literally not hurt.
Christine Schiefer: It's like you walked into that corner, you idiot.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But it's, it's...
Em Schulz: You created the corner.
Christine Schiefer: It's this like compulsion, like this, like, ooh, I, I don't know. I don't know. It's something hopefully we'll never have to understand, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So some time went by before Ruth's landlord noticed her mail was piling up. Umm, and when he let himself into her apartment, he found her dog and bird nearly dead from neglect.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, thankfully they survived, but of course, that's horrifying. Umm, Ruth became another missing person's case with absolutely no leads, because this time, there wasn't like the whole family to, to meet George before they got an answer.
Em Schulz: Right. So like, there was a line of people that like showed up to shake his hand.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And even then, they didn't have a lead, but, so now, you know, they definitely don't have another lead. And so all the detectives can do is note how similar this case is to, to Judy's, but they still have nothing. You know? They're, they're sure at this point Judy and Shirley are dead. They assume Ruth must also be dead. And of course, because this is what they do, he kept on going. 28-year-old Lorraine Vigil had just signed on with a modeling agency in LA, and apparently she decided this is a kind of weird intersection of his, of his, like serial killer names or MO because she was very lonely and decided to start modeling as a way to like meet people.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And so when Diane, who worked at the modeling agency, uh, reached out, she said, okay, just a heads up, there's this guy out there, uh, using fake names...
Em Schulz: [2:11:52.8] ____ gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And murdering women. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And she said, Lorraine, just be alert. You know? This is a scary industry. Don't if, like, trust your gut. Don't, you know, don't get...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Abducted by this crazy man. So of course, she gets a call from Harvey, uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sorry. Frank is now his name.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: My mistake. So Frank arrives to pick Lorraine up, and she says, can you show me an ID?
Em Schulz: Good for her. Good girl.
Christine Schiefer: To confirm, to confirm your identity. I know, but of course, Harvey being ever so cunning, uh, makes up excuses about why he doesn't have one with him. And Lorraine gives in to her sort of like, polite side or her, you know, uh, I need money side or what have you. Uh, and went, went against her gut judgment and left with him, got in his car. So they were supposed to go, interestingly to Diane's, the woman who called from the modeling agency at her studio to do a shoot. But pretty quickly, umm, Lorraine realized something was wrong because Harvey AKA Frank tells her, "There's a change of plans. We have to go to my studio instead." So now she's thinking, oh God, I already had a bad feeling about this.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And now he's saying we're going to his house or his studio. So she said she noticed that things were really wrong when he began speeding down the highway, like really fast. And she thought, shit like, this guy has bad intentions, and he wasn't answering any of her questions.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Terrifying.
Em Schulz: I can't even imagine...
Christine Schiefer: Terrifying.
Em Schulz: Just sitting next to someone who's...
Christine Schiefer: Who's just like speeding the car away from any safety you knew, yeah.
Em Schulz: Who can tell that you're freaking out and isn't like reassuring you?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Yes. Exactly. There's, ooh. So she, at this point, she's even considering like, can I jump out of the car when he slows down...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Wait for, at a red light, get out. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Is there any way for me to get outta this? Umm, but before she could, you know, figure that out, Harvey abruptly pulled off the road claiming he had a flat tire, and of course he did not. He jumped out, brandished his gun and told Lorraine he was an ex con who would kill her if she didn't cooperate.
Em Schulz: Woah.
Christine Schiefer: So at this point, she has no choice. Umm, he ties her up with both hands, and she kind of realizes, wait, he's tying with both his hands. He's not holding his gun.
Em Schulz: Hmm. Good girl.
Christine Schiefer: I know. So she turns to try to take it from him, and he goes to grab it. They begin struggling for the gun. Harvey's cussing at Lorraine, she's sobbing, of course. And the gun goes off and it shoots her in the thigh.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Fortunately, just a graze in...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Just a graze. But, you know, thankfully it didn't...
Em Schulz: No femoral artery, sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right, right. Nothing lethal. So it grazed her thigh. And this part also goes into the psychology, like, what the fuck is going on with this guy? He was somehow horrified that she had been shot, and he exclaimed, I shot you.
Em Schulz: Yes. Dumbass. What, what the fuck is going on?
Christine Schiefer: So at this point, Lorraine...
Em Schulz: Bamboozled, he's so fucking bamboozled.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's bamboozling when you said earlier like, Hey, what's his thing? I'm like, don't eat. I don't, don't ask me that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That really does feel, again, like an 18-year-old who doesn't really want to do this part, but like, feels like he has to.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, no. I mean...
Em Schulz: He's like, what? I got you with a gun that I was holding against you?
Christine Schiefer: I didn't mean to hurt your leg. Like, okay, I was just gonna strangle you to death. I mean, it's...
Em Schulz: If, if I were, if I were with somebody and they act that surprise that they shot me, I would take that as permission of like, oh, this guy doesn't wanna shoot me. Now I'm gonna kick his ass. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So basically she did take that moment, and she was like, okay, this, this is my fucking moment. And she bolts.
Em Schulz: Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: She has been shot in the leg, remember? Okay? But she fucking she...
Em Schulz: I love women. Bolts.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. And it's like so horrifying that the world is this way and continues in a lot of ways to be like this. But oh my gosh. I mean, so she fucking runs for it. And Harvey chases after her...
Em Schulz: [2:16:00.0] ____ gasp.
Christine Schiefer: And actually like, out of a horror movie, like tackles her to the ground.
Em Schulz: [2:16:03.7] ____ gasp. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And now they're wrestling again. And Lorraine manages to pull the gun from him. And just right as this is happening, a highway patrolman happens to be driving past.
Em Schulz: Thank God.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like the thing you always wish would happen in a movie like this, but never does. Umm...
Em Schulz: Well, it does happen in a movie, and then you find out that he's the accomplice.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. True. Yeah, yikes. Okay. Thankfully that's not like this at all. So the highway patrolman is driving down the road, sees them struggling and pulls over to intervene. So Lorraine is able to break free, thankfully, run to the, to the officer, and she tells him Harvey was trying to kill me. Umm, hands, this Officer Harvey's gun, 'cause remember she has gotten her hands on it.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so he's fucking screwed. He is...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Arrested immediately. Umm, there's nowhere for him to go. She has his gun now. The police officer has his gun. And pretty quickly, he surrenders and he tells the patrolman when he asks, uh, that he wasn't sure, and this again bamboozling, he wasn't sure whether he planned to rape Lorraine, but he might have.
Em Schulz: I feel like that's the closest thing to a lie he was able to concoct, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's like what kind of...
Em Schulz: It's like we know exactly what your plan was.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, exactly. Like you absolutely were planning to rape her. And also on top of that, murder her. So nice try.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, but of course, Lorraine, umm, well deserved, became like this sensational story...
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: Of, of, you know, heroism. And she tells reporters that she knew something was off about Harvey, but she kept reassuring herself that, you know, now she was probably overreacting. So, you know, that's when you get Gift of Fear, Gavin de Becker, you know, the whole, whole nine...
Em Schulz: I was waiting for it.
Christine Schiefer: Whole nine yard. I know, I know.
Em Schulz: See, something, say something.
Christine Schiefer: Had to be, had to be said. But man, that gut, that instinct, that reptilian brain, that lizard brain of yours is, uh, is, is pretty powerful.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, you know, listen up. So she later said, I did not become alarmed until we entered the Santa Ana Freeway. And he began driving at a tremendous speed. He wouldn't answer my questions or even look at me, which...
Em Schulz: Ugh, so chilling.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I got goosecam just saying it again. And of course, that's when she began jumping or considering jumping out of the car, umm, didn't get the chance to, and then made her brave escape. So in custody, Harvey tried to convince authorities that his attack on Lorraine was just totally impulsive, and it was not premeditated whatsoever. But as he went over how and why, he decided to attack her, it became pretty fucking obvious that, uh, he was very experienced, unfortunately, in abductions and assaults. And they were like, okay, this is not a one-time thing with this guy.
Em Schulz: No, not your first rodeo.
Christine Schiefer: Not his first rodeo. So they hook him up to a polygraph and ask him about Ruth and like a fucking child, immediately he comes clean and panics and he's like, yeah, you're right. I did it. And...
Em Schulz: All of it feels childish. I mean, even when he shot her, and he's like, oh, no. Like, and it's like, or...
Christine Schiefer: It feels so childish.
Em Schulz: Or like, when, when the cops showed up and all of a sudden he like didn't even know how to lie, he was like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean, I, I, I might have like...
Christine Schiefer: So, yeah. The second they're like, it's a lie detector. He's like, oh, no. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, he really...
Em Schulz: He still has like a child's brain, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's what it feels like. That's what it feels like. And he is in his 30s at this point. So he panics, he comes clean, and he actually thought the police had already searched his house and discovered the metal toolbox...
Em Schulz: [2:19:31.7] ____ gasp.
Christine Schiefer: Where he kept the photos of his previous victims...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But in fact...
Em Schulz: So he just said it?
Christine Schiefer: He, they, in fact, they said, "I'm sorry, you're what?" And uh...
Em Schulz: And then he was like, I don't know, again.
Christine Schiefer: Basically, yeah. And they said, okay, well, well, I guess we'll go find it. So they did. So he thought, oh, I'm foiled, they've caught me. And he told them everything. They, he said, I, I killed Ruth and I killed Shirley and Judy. And they were like...
Em Schulz: But you already knew that. And they're like, no.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. But you already saw the toolbox in my basement. It's like, wait, what?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, of course nobody had discovered this yet, but now they knew what to look for, and they did quickly uncover his photographs along with his items that he had stolen, like underwear and other things that I, in the past would've said were trophies, but I guess they're now like, I don't know mementos.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, and so he didn't seem like to answer your earlier question, remorseful about the crimes. Umm, he basically said the same thing I've said over and over, that he, he didn't, he, he thought he regretted killing the women, right? He's like, oh, I wish I didn't have to do that.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: But he almost felt like, oh, that was an inconvenience rather than like, actually regret.
Em Schulz: You poor thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right. And so he basically said like, well, I didn't have a choice. Like, that's his logic, you know. Like, I could be identified. Last time I let someone go, they arrested me. So that's his twisted logic.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I guarantee he just thought in his own head, he is gone. That's stupid bitch. What a bitch.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right. Right, right. She betrayed me. We watched comedies together under the blankets. It's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking twisted. So he, the only person he truly seemed to regret hurting was his mother, umm, who just tried she might had really had really tried to push him in the right direction, umm, but was now devastated to learn of Harvey's crimes.
Em Schulz: He's still at it.
Christine Schiefer: Still at it. And her name was Ophelia Glatman. And she, as we can probably guess, has always downplayed how bad things were with her son.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, you know, despite knowing about the assaults on women, because he had gone to jail for them and had...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Pleaded guilty. Uh, when she found out about the murders, she was said to have yelled, "Oh my God in heaven, not my boy. He was always so good. He never hurt anybody."
Em Schulz: Girl, please.
Christine Schiefer: So like, there is definitely a, uh, lying, lying to yourself thing happening here.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There's a, there's a denial that I can sense.
Christine Schiefer: A denial. Yes. That's the big word I was looking for. Definitely denial. Umm, but I mean, and you know, she had one son, she, her husband has passed, like... Ugh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's gotta be guilt inducing to think, oh, I knew something was up. You know, you don't wanna...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Admit to yourself, I knew I could've, you know, I could've probably said something or done something.
Em Schulz: Yeah, like guilt. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yikes. But of course, there are photographs and there's no way she can talk herself out of this one. Like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: No denying this one. So Harvey continued by leading... Sorry, that's not a sentence, Jack. So Harvey, uh, went even further. He led police to the site of the murders, uh, and they were able to recover, fortunately, the skeletal remains of Ruth and Shirley.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: And Harvey was once again medically evaluated, and it was determined that he was not mentally ill once again, and could determine right from wrong.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So all of them are out the window, and now there's nothing wrong with him except...
Em Schulz: He's a, a serial killer.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, except he's a serial killer. Uh, so Harvey not only accepted his guilt, he actually requested that he not be spared from the death penalty. Umm, he, he requested that he be put to death, and he was, on September 18th, 1959. And so that...
Em Schulz: Do you feel like that was his last attempt at control, though? Like, I feel like he ended up just getting what, that's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he wanted. That's a great point because like with Richard Ramirez who overdosed in jail, intentionally overdosed and, and took his own life. And with, Israel Keyes, it was more of a power move than anything else.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, well, if I'm gonna be here anyway at least...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, with Richard Ramirez it was probably mental illness, but...
Em Schulz: What, I get to make the say if I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's not, I, I, I guess, yeah. I guess the more apt comparison is Israel Keyes. Yeah. Like a, like a, now you'll, now you won't know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Everything. Like, I'm taking it to the grave. So you're, that could very well be. It seemed like he definitely had a power struggle and, and a lot of resentment...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Toward his peers and toward women. So he was executed on September... Although I feel like with Israel Keyes, it was suicide before he was executed.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, I feel like the power, usually the power move is, is like to die by suicide...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: In these cases, because you're like taking your own life.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. I don't know. I don't know. Psychologist weigh in.
Em Schulz: Weigh in.
Christine Schiefer: Jordan weigh in. [laughter] Oh gosh. Okay. So he, like I said, he was ultimately executed in 1959. Now we fast forward to 2008, okay?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: This is nearly 50 years later. Colorado investigators announced, they suspected Harvey in an unsolved murder of a Jane Doe, whose identity they suspected was a young missing woman named Katharine E Farrand Dyer. And when they looked into this and they announced, they thought he was the suspect they were looking at. Katharine was like, umm, "Hi, I'm here. I am alive and well, and in my 80s and living in Australia."
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so they're like, okay, that's great. We're so happy that you're alive and well, but who the fuck is the Jane Doe? Now we're back to square one.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And now there's another person who's, who's missing and an unknown. And so, you know, they had to start over, uh, not start over, but they had to really go, they had to backtrack.
Em Schulz: Deeper. They had to go deeper.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Go deeper. And, uh, the remains themselves had been discovered in 1954, having been abandoned and stripped of her clothes. And it matched, you know, the MO and the timeline of when Harvey was, was running around.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And this is when he would've been living in Denver. So it, it matches the area as well. Uh, investigators actually believe that she might've in fact been his first ever victim.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So eventually the Jane Doe was fortunately identified. There was this woman named Michelle Fowler, who was determined to track down her missing great aunt, and she had never met her. Uh, her name was Dorothy Gay Howard. And she had vanished when she was 18 years old. And so, uh, you know, fast forward to '08, Michelle Fowler is like, I would like to figure out what happened to this missing person in my family tree. And so she began cold calling women with her aunt's name in the phone book. But like, time and time again, it was not her aunt.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So eventually she came across this story about Jane Doe, and she reached out to a local historian named Sylvia Pelham, who said, why don't we do a DNA test. Fucking DNA for the win yet again. Yet again.
Em Schulz: Love it.
Christine Schiefer: So Sylvia, the, the local historian had previously raised money to actually exhume this Jane Doe's remains. And that's how, uh, Michelle like stumbled upon this whole story. And so, uh, they took, she had already taken the DNA test of the Jane Doe. And so now, umm, Michelle was able to take a DNA test, and you know, at first, uh, they were hesitant about it because, uh, she wasn't, Michelle wasn't, but her family was, because they actually all all believed that Dorothy was alive somewhere.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they had sort of just hoped that like she had left kind of maybe a toxic family relationship or toxic...
Em Schulz: Yeah. They still had the hope.
Christine Schiefer: The toxics... Yeah. They had the hope that like, oh, well things didn't work out, but she's okay and happy somewhere.
Em Schulz: She's happy and, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They didn't wanna know the truth.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So they were a little scared to find out. Umm, and so when they did the DNA test, it was in fact, uh, confirmed that it was Dorothy.
Em Schulz: Oof, that's rough.
Christine Schiefer: And so one of them said, for, just to give you an example, my dad died thinking she was going to come and see him again.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: There was just a lot of like fear of knowing, you know, the truth and...
Em Schulz: Having to deal with that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I imagine that was a very difficult time. And I also imagine it was probably, I, I hope at least that it was healing in some way, you know, to like, know the real story and to put her to rest. Umm, but it must be shocking to learn she died at 18 years old, and you've thought maybe she was alive this whole time. So that must have been very jarring. But, umm, authorities remain convinced that Harvey was likely Dorothy's killer. Umm, but the lack of evidence, especially now that it so much time has passed, makes it nearly impossible to really, uh, determine whether he was the one who did it. But, you know, circumstantially, the pieces absolutely add up. And I wonder, I wonder, I mean, I am sure they've looked into this, but like that toolbox of photos, I'm like, maybe he just hadn't taken photos, started the photos yet, if they cannot...
Em Schulz: Or maybe they were tamer. Like maybe he was only taking like abstract, like, you know, like...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe like, of just like a body part or something.
Em Schulz: Or like of a rope or like of a pizza clothing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like something that was kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Em Schulz: He definitely gives me the vibe that he thinks he's fucking deep in brooding.
Christine Schiefer: I would see his shit just like, fucking poet, BTK, like what is going on...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: With these guys?
Em Schulz: You know, he would've read the poet, the poem and been like, "Now this guy fucking knows what he's talking about."
Christine Schiefer: I feel like he would've been like, this loser thinks he's an artist.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Now, look at my picture.
Em Schulz: I could have, I could have... Well, look at my pictures of this like...
Christine Schiefer: They're both narcissists. Like, there's not room for both of them to be genius.
Em Schulz: That's a great point. That's a great point.
Christine Schiefer: And that is my psycho psychological assessment of the situation. Like...
Em Schulz: You know what I would like, eventually? I would like for you to write me another, didn't you write me a poem recently? Was it for Cryptid Poetry Slam?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you know...
Em Schulz: You wrote me something. Did you write me a poem?
Christine Schiefer: Probably but...
Em Schulz: Did someone... Someone wrote me a poem.
Christine Schiefer: Or was that a dream you had? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Maybe I just really...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding.
Em Schulz: Want you to write me a poem.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, obviously I'm getting the hint. Okay? I only have five months to the day. No, six months to the day. It's January. Wait, no, five months to write your poem.
Em Schulz: What whatever you, whatever you, uh, would write just know it would be better than BTK.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, honestly, that is somehow reassuring and also...
Em Schulz: Sad.
Christine Schiefer: Somehow insulting. I don't know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just saying you could suck and it would be better than him.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's great. Uh, as long as it's not the other way around, I guess I can...
Em Schulz: Would you like a poem or would you, what would you like in return?
Christine Schiefer: Umm...
Em Schulz: Uh, you, we'll barter. You'll get me a poem and I'll get you something.
Christine Schiefer: I love a limerick. Maybe I wrote you a limerick.
Em Schulz: [2:30:11.6] ____ gasp.
Christine Schiefer: That's the thing I would do. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. We could write each other limericks. That'd be great.
Christine Schiefer: There was a podcaster named Em, who kept poking at their own phlegm.
Em Schulz: Oh. Shit. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, I'm telling you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I, I'll have to think about it a little longer than... You really just fucking free-flowed like...
Christine Schiefer: Listen, maybe...
Em Schulz: Like Nicki Minaj. Are you here?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I'm a rapper? I don't know. Like it's 2024. Anything is possible. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Any... [laughter] What high hopes. Let's replay this one day when it's not January 3rd and it's much later into the year.
Christine Schiefer: I, okay.
Em Schulz: When you were like, anything's possible. I can be...
Christine Schiefer: I know. Yikes. Big, big bold statement to make three days in. Umm, but you know what, Patreon, we we're actually currently adding a bunch of fun stuff, or like, at least, umm, you know, tossing around some fun little new bits and segments. Maybe one of these days, I'll complete the limerick and I'll videotape it and it'll be, I'll put it on Patreon. I'll make them put it on Patreon.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We should do, we should do a limerick contest and people can finish, can finish the limerick for us.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Okay. Now that's fun. Okay, Patreon, do some work. Write a poem.
Em Schulz: There was a Cryptid in Kentucky, uh, her name was Christine and...
Christine Schiefer: She thought she was...
Em Schulz: She was lucky.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Okay.
Em Schulz: Something, something, something, something. Something about losing your wallet.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But then finding it, that's the lucky part. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, okay.
Em Schulz: Wait, wait. We'll do, there is a girl from, there's a cryptid in Kentucky who was always very unlucky...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Something, something, something something. She can never find her wallet.
Christine Schiefer: Good one.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, unlucky, she...
Em Schulz: Wallet, balling. Wallet...
Christine Schiefer: She walked in a store...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And went right out the door forgetting she... What was this supposed to rhyme with?
Em Schulz: Oh wait, it has to rhyme with Kentucky and lucky.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Doesn't it?
Christine Schiefer: Forgetting she or forgetting her identity, what the fucky.
Em Schulz: Okay. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Listen, uh, again, I, I, I wanted to just quit while I was ahead with that first half of the limerick and then not fuck up the rest. Umm, but I'll, I'm gonna came up with a good one. I'm gonna, I'm gonna finish it. Umm, but I do have two bullet points left. So...
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh, oh.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry to barge back in on the sad stuff, but, umm, you know, I guess it's somewhat redeeming that at least we know who this Jane Doe is, even though we cannot necessarily confirm that, umm, Harvey was her killer. At least we know, uh, her name and they were able to put their family member to rest. So in 2009, uh, Marlene, who was Dorothy's sister, uh, told reporters, "I'm sorry in a way that my parents never found out what happened to her, but I'm also relieved they didn't find out how she died." So I think there was a lot of like, conflicting emotions about that. And she also expressed her gratitude to the citizens of Boulder, Colorado, who had donated their own money to bury the Jane Doe and to put up a headstone. And she said, please thank them for taking care of her. They must be very nice people. And so that is the story...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Of Harvey Glatman the Glamour Girl Slayer. I mean, Jesus Christ, that's stupid.
Em Schulz: Glamour Girl Slayer, it does sound like an '80s, like slasher movie.
Christine Schiefer: It's like an annoying... Yeah. It's an annoying thing to say out loud, umm...
Em Schulz: I always, I, you know, when we first started this podcast, I loved when people had a nickname and now I just don't want them to have it. You know?
Christine Schiefer: I know. Like...
Em Schulz: Like I don't want them to have earned it in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's like, well, they probably like having this...
Em Schulz: They fucking love it.
Christine Schiefer: The larger than life identity. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If we wrote a limerick about him, he would lose his mind.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Which is why I'm gonna stick with the shifter. I'll talk about her.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Good. [laughter] I'm like, let's not wing it 'cause that can go really bad.
Em Schulz: No, no. Wait, I think I have an ending.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for what?
Em Schulz: There, there was a Cryptid in Kentucky...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm gonna fix the, I'll fix the, umm, the syntax 'cause it's, it's a little off, which...
Em Schulz: What is it? There was a, there was a...
Christine Schiefer: There once was a girl in Kentucky or there...
Em Schulz: Sure. There once was a girl in Kentucky...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Who was always very unlucky...
Christine Schiefer: Who felt she was always unlucky.
Em Schulz: Okay. Thank you. What was the store door one?
Christine Schiefer: She went into a store, then went right out the door...
Em Schulz: Because she left her wallet at Buc-ee's.
Christine Schiefer: At Buc-ee's. Oh my God.
[applause]
Em Schulz: Okay. We did it. We did it.
Christine Schiefer: Em, you're a fucking genius.
Em Schulz: Could you tell that when we wrote a book, Christine had to do all of my grammar edits, 'cause I, I...
Christine Schiefer: But that's what I love. But then EM added all the funny stuff, so it was like a perfect combo. It was like Em's the funny one, and I'm like...
Em Schulz: You made...
Christine Schiefer: Umm, actually that's not how you spell there. Not that you ever actually fucked that up, but...
Em Schulz: I literally, I don't know why I never learned grammar. And the way that I speak is so grammatically incorrect and I...
Christine Schiefer: It's not that, no, I don't think so. I think it looks pretty...
Em Schulz: I think my, like, my tone or my, my tempo or whatever, it, everything is always a run on sentence.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think that's probably normal for mo... Like, I think that's normal. I think I'm just, again, mentally unwell in a way that somehow only only gives me the gift of good grammar and spelling. Like, I think, I think it's a, just a, a side effect of all the, the bad parts.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, anyway, everyone, I'm very glad that we finished our limerick. Buc-ee's, if you're willing to put them on a shirt for us.
Christine Schiefer: Now, that was good. I mean, that was good, Em. Umm, bravo.
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like I bet I, I wonder if anyone out there was like you just said she went into a gas station...
Em Schulz: Buc-ee's is a store.
Christine Schiefer: No, I know, I know, I know. But I'm saying like, I wonder if anyone was like, hello, Buc-ee's.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, oh.
Christine Schiefer: Like I wonder if anyone else put it together, but I sure didn't. So you really blew my socks off just now.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Okay. Well, next. Ooh, are we gonna, we're not gonna be at the Buc-ee's anytime soon, are we?
Christine Schiefer: Okay, how about this?
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: There once was a girl in Kentucky who felt she was always unlucky. She walked into a store and then right out the door, she had left her whole wallet at Buc-ee's.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Perfect. So now we're gonna, you have a cricut machine and I know you have a Buc-ee's cozy.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Or no, you should get you, oh, next time we're there, you should get like one of their little wallets at Buc-ee's and then...
Christine Schiefer: [2:36:24.1] ____ gasp.
Em Schulz: Put that, that limerick and put your cricut limerick on there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Listen, it's ex, it's, it's genius is what it is.
Em Schulz: And also like, I don't know about who felt she was always on, she was fucking unlucky.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: Like, she was always unlucky. It wasn't even felt unlucky. You're obviously with evidence unlucky. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, it doesn't work with the syntax. So you know what...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna find a different verb. I'm gonna find a different verb.
Em Schulz: Who, who everyone knew was unlucky.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's good.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's good. That's very good.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: That's very good. Excellent. You're, you're fucking nailing it.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Everyone, if you would like to, uh, see us live for some reason, you can...
Christine Schiefer: Why wouldn't you?
Em Schulz: You can find us, uh, on tour. By the time you're listening to this, we've already finished our first leg and I don't know how we did. I hope we did good. Umm, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you know what else is perfect about our limerick?
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Buc-ee's just opened their first Kentucky location and I've been there.
Em Schulz: So we can go together.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But like, also the thing was about a girl in Kentucky and they just opened a Kentucky location. I mean, how perfect.
Em Schulz: So it actually works now, like storywise, it actually [2:37:30.1] ____.
Christine Schiefer: Like there's no plot holes.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay. Is it near you?
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, I... What? Yeah. Uh, no, it's like an hour and a half away.
Em Schulz: So it's near you?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah, it's near enough.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like, let's fucking go. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: They'll put an air tag on me first. Just in case.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No, just, I'm just gonna tape one to your wallet. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Just tape it to my body maybe I, I don't know.
Em Schulz: If you would like to come see our show, we still have some tickets left. Uh, go to our website andthatswhywedrink.com, umm, and come see us live. This is everyone's last chance at seeing our On The Rocks tour before the fall, when we have a new tour out. So, umm, come see us. And...
Christine Schiefer: Please, we would love it even if we faint on stage. That's... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.
