Em Schulz: Hello, everybody. Um, just like a quick little message out to the world, uh that in this episode, I... Can you believe it? Do math wrong. What? Um it's true. And where I divide 700 by 12,600, umm, I keep saying .06%, and I say it like way too much to not address the fact that that's the wrong number. Umm. I forgot to move decimals around. It's supposed to be 6%, not .06. So anyway, I usually wouldn't even feel the need to say this or say anything, but I really, I say the number so much that it needs to be... It needs to be corrected. [chuckle] Um. Anyway, I don't know. Do what you will with that. Have a good day. Drink some water, ya filthy little rats.
[intro music]
Em Schulz: Oh Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Huh What?
Em Schulz: I don't know, I just wanted to beat you to, to finally saying something and then I didn't even come up with a witty thing.
Christine Schiefer: I stayed quiet. I gave you the opportunity. 'Cause um, I feel like I always start off. But uh, you did great, Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Your first time starting off the podcast.
Em Schulz: Well, first time ever. Well, here I go umm complimenting you again publicly about your outfit. I don't know what it is...
Christine Schiefer: You're so silly. I'm literally in like a $2 tank top. It's 'cause I never wore tank tops. Every time I wear a tank top I'm just like, "Whoa." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I don't know what, 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: My broad shoulders are on display. As my mother always told me.
Em Schulz: Oh, I don't think you have broad shoulders. But I, and I don't know why, 'cause I'm not... Like tank tops aren't a thing for me, but I think 'cause you do look different that I just noticed differences.
Christine Schiefer: I think maybe that's what it is. I also took a shower and forgot to take my hair out of this towel thing, so... You know. Em was like, "Oh, looks like an exercise day." I was like, "No, it's the opposite. It's I managed to shower and that's all I've done." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You could tell me you just ran like 10 miles and I'd believe you.
Christine Schiefer: I did, I did do that.
Em Schulz: You know?
Christine Schiefer: I forgot to mention, I did run 10... 11 miles.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and you bench pressed a bus, so obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I didn't know you knew that.
Em Schulz: I watched.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. You did? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: No wonder you're all worked up. I'd be too. If you had bench pressed a bus I'd marry you on the spot.
Em Schulz: Ay! Well, alright.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: No, also you have a nice all-around glow, you've got a little tan going on.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank you. I ah, put oil all over my face 'cause my skin is dry, umm...
Em Schulz: Mmm. Lovely.
Christine Schiefer: This is the week of Leona's birthday.
Em Schulz: Ooh!
Christine Schiefer: Which is why I drink. So my like in-laws are coming in tomorrow, umm, Leona's been really sick, but she's better now. Then her teacher got sick.
Em Schulz: What did she have?
Christine Schiefer: She had roseola. And Blaise's first comment was like, "We need to get Em over here, to continue Em's list of childhood vaccinations." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I never had roseola, so. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you might have. It's like very common in little kids. I mean, it's just another like fever thing that... Yeah, so she had that. She's fine now, but oh my God, it's been crazy. And then the... It's my brother's birthday Friday, we're going to a wedding Saturday, Leona's birthday is Sunday.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: We have like 65 people coming for the birthday.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It's gonna be a lot. [chuckle] Oh my God. It's okay. I'm just trying to breathe. Umm. So anyway, how are you?
Em Schulz: Better than you. Um... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's a low bar.
Em Schulz: I... Well, I have been doing a lot of extra cleaning uh, because we have friends, um, I guess house sitting. But it was... Like they're not... They needed a place to crash and neither of us are gonna be here, so we just, we're lending them our apartment. So I didn't...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Matt and Chanel? Or no?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh nice.
Em Schulz: Matt and Chanel. Christine only knows that because I accidentally texted her into a group chat with...
Christine Schiefer: I was thrilled, I was like, "Hey guys, I'm just watching you make plans." [laughter] I loved it.
Em Schulz: It was the wrong group chat, so.
Christine Schiefer: I felt like I was like a fly on the wall. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I uh, I ended up like... I ended up deciding that if they're gonna stay with us, then like I have to clean the entire place.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And um, so I've just been like kind of running around. It's like I'm doing an intense clean because I apparently turned into my mother where everything has to be like very clean for them to come over.
Christine Schiefer: Have you seen... This is I hate... You know, people hate when I do this or when people do this, but that TikTok where it's like my mom, when people are coming over and she's like, "Who's coming over? Like the house is a disaster." And then the friend comes over and walks in and is like, "What the fuck?"
Em Schulz: Yeah, I know. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?" And like freaks out. [laughter] Is like, "Is this dust on the stairs? You haven't taken your trash out?" And the mom's like, "I'm sorry, I told you." Like this is what moms literally think is gonna happen if you invite a friend over and the house isn't clean.
Em Schulz: And I don't know why my brain is like that, because Chanel has already like, like stayed multiple nights here before and they've both been here for parties, like...
Christine Schiefer: It's such a real thing though, like to feel like you need to make it pristine for people.
Em Schulz: I don't know what my deal is. Like, they've seen it dirtier...
Christine Schiefer: It's like it's your home. Well, and Sherry is sleeping up here in the podcast studio, the haunted one. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Mmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so I've had to, like... As you know, there's like a bed in that closet.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I try to make it really cozy about like a headboard and pillows. And so I'm trying to make it nice, but also I work up here, so it's just kind of a shit show. I had to move my, my THC sodas out of the fridge so she's not like accidentally drinking one at night instead of a LaCroix. I'm trying to make it nice, but yeah, it is like a constant mess.
Em Schulz: I think I'm more stressed because both of them will be here without me like supervising what they're looking at. And not that I think they're like snoopy, but I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right, right. But if they're like, "Oh, I wonder where this is," and open the wrong cabinet or...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I get you, I get you.
Em Schulz: I will say also, umm, Matt is one of the people who actually notice the things nobody else notices.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like I had a housewarming party, and instead of complementing anything, I actually really really tried on, he came up to me and was like, "Oh, I really love how you did the wiring of... Like I love how you like organized your cords." And I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that's a big deal though. I noticed that too. That's a big thing for me.
Em Schulz: Which is why I'm like, I have to wipe down the cords. Like I'm like a crazy person.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] He's gonna look at those cords. He's been dying to see those cords again, I know it.
Em Schulz: I know. So anyway, I'm like, I know he's gonna notice the organization, so.
Christine Schiefer: I feel you.
Em Schulz: Anyway, I guess that's why I drink. But I'm also traveling, um, back to the East Coast again. I'm like a little tired of it. But...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. What are you doing on the East Coast now?
Em Schulz: Allison's sister is getting married.
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh fun.
Em Schulz: She already got married, but we're all like getting together for like a family party. Like a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I didn't know. How fun.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Congrats, Carrie. I hope she doesn't mind shoutouts.
Em Schulz: I don't even...
Christine Schiefer: I haven't seen her in years.
Em Schulz: Actually, she would love a shoutout. Because when we had our Charlotte show, Allison's whole family came to the show, and I guess Carrie was standing in line to like get a t-shirt, and she overheard two people in the audience talking about Allison...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And they were like... They said something about like, "Oh, and Allison, maybe Allison's whole family is here,"...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And they were trying to think if they knew Allison's family. And they said, "I think she has a brother, but I think she only has a brother."
Em Schulz: And then Carrie was like, "What?"
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] [laughter] Shut the fuck up. Oh my God. No, Allison has two siblings, they're both lovely. And um shoutout Carrie only.
Em Schulz: Yeah, only.
Christine Schiefer: Only Carrie.
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, she was like... I think she was like, "I wanted to like stop them and tell them that I'm the sister, but like I don't... "
Christine Schiefer: They would be like, "No, you're not. You liar." [laughter] "Prove it."
Em Schulz: But so she actually, she told me backstage after the show, "Can you like, somehow slip in that like Allison has a sister?" [laughter] So here you are. I hope you like it.
Christine Schiefer: That was really smooth. I sort of forced that one, I was like, "Where are you going? Why?" [laughter] You're welcome, Carrie. That was me. Okay?
Em Schulz: You're welcome, Carrie. So um... Anyway, that's... I guess that's why I drink. I'm just, you know, aware of my stuff going on. And that's it. So.
Christine Schiefer: You are aware of it. That's good.
Em Schulz: Yeah, thank you.
Christine Schiefer: At least someone is. Yeah, now we are too.
Em Schulz: Um, I've got myself a story for you, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, shall we [soda can cracks open] crack into it. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: We shall. And you know what, you know how I just opened a Liquid Death earlier before we even had... I just needed to... I needed something to drink. I'm gonna open this one now, which is my little THC soda.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Since I'm trying to remove them. I'm just doing Sherry a favor and drinking them before she gets here.
Em Schulz: Oh you generous soul.
Christine Schiefer: I know, thank you so much for noticing. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: What a martyr. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I know. That's what I say about myself all the time. It only has...
Em Schulz: Do you see my light freaking out all of a sudden? Now it's fine. Oh I hated that.
Christine Schiefer: I did not see it. I looked away at the wrong time.
Em Schulz: Sorry, keep going. I wanna ignore whatever that was.
Christine Schiefer: Cool, me too. Um. It has 5 milligrams of THC, but it's like Delta 8, so it's like the legal mild stuff. So I'm gonna be drinking this throughout the show, everyone, and so don', don't be alarmed if I suddenly seem...
Em Schulz: Fun.
Christine Schiefer: Real amused.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Alright. That's a fun game. We'll all keep track now of Christine's woo-hoo levels.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I'm... On Beach Too Sandy sometimes I will not be drinking, have anything... Anything abnormal. And people will be like, "Wow Christine definitely got high this episode." And I'm like, "No, I didn't."
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: So I feel like it's hard to tell. I don't know. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Do you remember the first few episodes of And That's Why We Drink when people kept thinking we must be getting stoned before we talk? [laughter] And I was like, like I've literally never done that.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "Christine is wasted. Em must be stony baloney. There's no way these two bozos are sober." And you totally were. I was making up for it, but you were totally stone cold sober.
Em Schulz: I was just being silly goose. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: Alright, so I have um... My notes did not go as planned. Oh my God, see? My light's doing it.
Christine Schiefer: What is that? What light is that?
Em Schulz: I just have a light... Ah! Well...
Christine Schiefer: It looks like you're in a prism. Like in a discotheque.
Em Schulz: Ahhhh. Yeah, I just had a little light pointed on me 'cause otherwise it's too dark on my face. But it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's like disco light now, yeah.
Em Schulz: Like freaking out. Um. Okay, so I have notes that did not go as planned. I expected to go like really in depth with it, and it was gonna be like this huge deep dive, but go figure, all of it was pretty classified. So. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Go figure.
Em Schulz: And some of it is released to the public but they didn't like really help with the notes. So I wanted to... This topic, the topic is um Project Blue Book, which...
Christine Schiefer: Yes! Oh shut up. Oh I was hoping you'd say that.
Em Schulz: But I always... I wanted it to be more like, let me tell you about the experiments and let me tell you about the nitty-gritties and...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But it kind of just turned into like, um... I don't know, it just didn't go as planned. I thought I was gonna be doing more of a tell-all, and nothing... Nothing I found really told all. You know? And so, um...
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Well. This is kind of cool though, then you can do an introductory like Chapter 1 or like 101 on Project Blue Book, and then like in a few years or something we can do like, "Now the deep dive we've all been waiting for, now that we've graduated from 101."
Em Schulz: Yes, I agree. I think that's a perfect way to put it. This is 101.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: And then if I can find my way into a deep dive, I'll do it.
Christine Schiefer: Which, I don't even have 101 knowledge, so like I need 101 first, I feel like before a deep dive anyway.
Em Schulz: You're so good at hyping me up when I'm like feeling blue about something.
Christine Schiefer: By just like insulting my own intelligence. That's what I do. It's impulsive.
Em Schulz: No, I felt so bad 'cause I really wanted this to be like QAnon, let me tell you like every single thing they did and found...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I see.
Em Schulz: And like... I expected it to be like two-parter and, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I'll be honest, I feel like it will be nice for everyone to have a 101 like first, you know? To just...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause most of us probably don't know...
Em Schulz: Easing you in.
Christine Schiefer: Even the beginning of it.
Em Schulz: Okay. Thank you, Christine. I appreciate that.
Christine Schiefer: You're so welcome. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So um, okay, Project Blue Book. It was the code name for the 1952 Air Force program looking into UFOs and extraterrestrial life.
Em Schulz: Do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh I wish I had the button.
Em Schulz: I don't, I don't... I wish I installed that on our machine so we could just start pressing that more often.
Christine Schiefer: Do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do.
Em Schulz: Umm. So did you know, I did not know this, I thought this was super fun, and this will be an episode that I cover if I can...
Christine Schiefer: I... Literally the way you said that, I thought you're gonna say, "And this will be on the test." I was like, "Oh no." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: "And this will be... " And I was like, "Shit, I don't have a pencil." [laughter] "Can I borrow a pen?" That was me, "Can I borrow a pen? Can I borrow a paper? Can I borrow a chair?"
Em Schulz: I literally...
Christine Schiefer: I didn't bring anything to school, I forgot everything at home.
Em Schulz: Me either. How on earth did I go through... I never ever had a pen. Ever. And if I brought a pen to class, I'd probably throw it in the trash just so I get some time to be like, "Can I have a pen?"
Christine Schiefer: "Oops." And then somebody would be like, "Can I have my pen back?" And I'm like, "I don't have your pen." And they're like, "I literally give you seven last week."
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like, "Well, I'm sorry, they're gone. I don't know what to... You gave me a pen. That was your fault." Also, can I tell you one thing really quickly? I'm sorry, it's such a side bar, but I totally meant to mention it is the reason I drink and I totally forgot, and it's that I was at the Bengals game yesterday. Who Dey! They won.
Christine Schiefer: And uh, I brought my dad and I was with Blaise and my sister, and I ordered a Bud Light. And I had... I hadn't... I was gonna say I'd forgotten to tell Blaise. It wasn't that I had forgotten. I didn't wanna tell Blaise that I had lost my driver's license while he was out of town. And I can't find it, it's been like two weeks.
Em Schulz: It's on the ground somewhere at a bar, so.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: It's literally on the ground. Not even at a bar, it's like probably at a Michaels craft store [laughter] or like somewhere so boring and stupid. And I was like, I am so embarrassed to tell him, so I brought my passport. I've been carrying my passport around for like two weeks to be like, oh, in case I need an ID.
Christine Schiefer: And so I was at the stadium and I was like, I'm gonna order a Bud Light 'cause I'm feeling a little wild and crazy. [chuckle] So I ordered a Bud Light and they're like, "Can I see an ID?" And I was like, "Of course." I opened my passport...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: It's Leona's passport.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like... I literally just hold it up and they're like, "That's a baby."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And you're like, "Oh my God, I look so young don't I?"
Christine Schiefer: So I was like, "Thank you."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "That's a baby who's not even 2." And I was like, Oh my Lord. And I was so mortified. And then Blaise is like, "Why are you carrying that around?" I was like, "Oh, I just, I grabbed it by accident." He's like, "Well, then show your driver's license." I was like, "I don't... It's somewhere in the world."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, so then I had to make Blaise buy me my beer, which was very embarrassing, and um, I basically whipped out the passport. And literally when she looked at me and said, "That's a baby," I was like, "What are you talking about?"
Christine Schiefer: Um. So I basically have been carrying around my infant, my toddler daughter's passport as a form of official government identification for two weeks. Umm, I forget why I mentioned this? You were saying something... Oh, about losing my pens. This is just like kind of... Like Blaise was so frustrated. But like he was like, "I'm not mad at you," and I'm like, "I know. You're just mad at life."
Em Schulz: You know when we were younger, and even before that, more like that in the '80s, there was that uh PSA that came on at 10 o'clock every night to be like, "Where are your children?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "Where are your children?"
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, "I don't know. Probably on the floor somewhere at a Michaels crafts store probably." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You definitely... We need to bring that back just so we can be like, "Where are your important documents?"
Christine Schiefer: "Where is your driver's license?"
Em Schulz: "Where is your birth certificate right now?" Um.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's so... And the fact that I... Thank God I found out like in such a low stakes environment. Like imagine if I was out and I needed an ID, like I got pulled over or something, and I'm like, "Oh." Well, I mean, I guess I need to have my driver's license for that event anyway. So. You know what? Let's not think about it. That's what I do, I compartmentalize.
Em Schulz: Do you still don't have your ID?
Christine Schiefer: No, I have no idea where it is, but don't tell Blaise yet. 'Cause I will find it eventually. I think.
Em Schulz: It will come up in a way where like people are talking around you and you'd spot it and you can't even rejoice, you're just gonna have to act like you always knew it was right there and then put it back in your pocket.
Christine Schiefer: oops. Maybe I'll go back to the crafts store. I swear it's probably there. [chuckle] I don't know where it is.
Em Schulz: Honestly at this point, I don't know how... I mean, wow, this could get so bad so quickly about like government surveillance, but how are there not like tags or something?
Christine Schiefer: A little geotag on it. I need to like tape one to it maybe. That's probably insane.
Em Schulz: I think you need to put like an AirTag, tape it to your ID. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think I do. I think that's a good idea, Em. I'm gonna do that. And you know, people would say, "Put it in your wallet." Well, I do have an AirTag in my wallet. My wallet's here, my ID is gone. So you know what, that didn't help me any. Um, anyway Ems, so sorry to just barge in with my stupid story, but um...
Em Schulz: It's okay. While we're... While we're barging, it's literally, people are like, "Oh my God, we got one bullet in."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: But I keep wanting... I keep wanting us to say this and we keep fucking forgetting.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what?
Em Schulz: We should catch people up on where we are with the tour. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Only because people are...
Christine Schiefer: Have we not said anything? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: We haven't said anything.
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: And now it's fucking October.
Christine Schiefer: Oopsie.
Em Schulz: Okay, so uh, I only wanna bring it up just because people have to be wondering what's going on. Um, 'Cause we said we would be having fall dates, and again, it's fall and we're not touring. Um. So, we had a bit of a miscommunication when it came to like figuring out venues and stuff like that, and things just didn't work out, things just didn't work out in time. So we are going back out on tour, but we're going back out on tour in the spring. So we're taking a hiatus for the fall. And...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: But we are still doing the same content, otherwise we would have announced to you guys like the location and how it went and like talked about the tour more.
Christine Schiefer: Right. But we're keeping it under wraps still for the shows that haven't seen it yet.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So we're only halfway through our tour, we're just taking a very big break in between. But not as big as COVID so, you know. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: That's right, so you're not allowed to complain to us. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So um, we will be back in spring, which it will be, you know, wide range between January and probably May. But then...
Christine Schiefer: And we don't even know what cities yet, so we're still waiting on the um, information. And this is uh, as we approach October. So yeah, we'll be releasing that as soon as we have it, we just haven't gotten it yet. Um. And also just in case you are missing us so much, um, Alexander and I will be in Pittsburg and Nashville on November 8th and 9th, so if you wanna come see us, you can.
Em Schulz: Boom.
Christine Schiefer: Boom. Bing bang boom.
Em Schulz: Okay, I've been wanting to say it for like easily the last 10 episodes, and then I always remember after we record, so.
Christine Schiefer: I never remember. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Anyway, sorry to everyone who's been like wondering what's going on, but you have deserved a PSA for quite some time.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. That's true.
Em Schulz: Hey Christine, I've got a story for you. It's called Project Blue Book. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, cool. Should we do... Is it a deep dive? Is it... No I'm just kidding. You don't have to all that again.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. The first and last bullet I left you on was, that it's a code name for the Air Force. An Air Force program in 1952, that was looking into UFOs and extraterrestrial life.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: Fun fact, 'cause it didn't even occur to me, uh, people since the late 1800s have been claiming to see UFOs.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Probably earlier, but it's been documented around in the US, at least since the late 1800s.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Um. Which, before 1950, like it doesn't even occur to me they would have known what... Like you know what I mean? Like it blows my mind.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's interesting too, because I feel like back in the 1800s, it would have been a lot. Like there's no such thing as like a plane or a helicopter in the sky.
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Like so the lights must have been very alarming back then.
Em Schulz: Which is why they at the time called them airships because they literally thought they were flying ships, like ocean ships.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, I never even thought about that. Weird.
Em Schulz: But yeah, they like didn't know really any other vehicles, so they were like, "It's a ship in the air."
Christine Schiefer: Sure, of course.
Em Schulz: Which, that blew my mind too. I'm like, it's so funny how language works, where it's like they were so limited to only knowing one thing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you use what you know. Exactly. Oh that's pretty genius, Em. Wow.
Em Schulz: Uh. So this is something that if I can find enough notes on will be the, what I cover next week. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: But I found out then in 1896 and 1897, there was actually a mass hysteria throughout the country because a bunch of people started reporting strange lights in the air, mysterious crafts and cigar-shaped flying boats.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh my God. There was a whole...
Em Schulz: That means... It means I might be covering it, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, a good story from Em. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So that was in the 1890s. And what's interesting about it is people really didn't know what to do about it, and they weren't even thinking about aliens. Because my first thought if I see a UFO is alien, but they were just seeing flying boats and were just amazed by the technology.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It didn't even occur to them that it would be extraterrestrial life.
Christine Schiefer: From a different planet. Right, right.
Em Schulz: Like yeah, like aliens wasn't even on their mind.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: It was just, "How is something flying?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um. So people were seeing the crafts, but not necessarily connecting them to aliens, but if I can find a lot of information on that, I'll cover it next week. So in 1947, here's another fun fact for you, there was a pilot named Kenneth Arnold, and he was flying a plane near Mt. Rainier in Washington, and all of a sudden he saw nine objects fly between mountain peaks at impossible speeds. He...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: He estimated that they were flying at at least a 1000 miles an hour. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my Lord.
Em Schulz: Something very, very impossible in 1947.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And he reported it and told the media, and when he was talking to the media, he said, "They flew like a saucer would if you were skipping it across... across water."
Christine Schiefer: Oh interesting.
Em Schulz: And the media ran with that, and that is how we got "flying saucer".
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit, I didn't even see it coming. I'm such an idiot. [chuckle] Whoa.
Em Schulz: And so he actually later reported that like he doesn't... Like, he didn't mean to say it looked like a flying saucer, it was just it flew like a saucer if you frisbeed it, essentially.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's interesting how that would stick and like just that one turn of phrase would become the entire concept. Wow.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And apparently he had um... When he said it, it was at the beginning of like the mass UFO hysteria of the 1950s, and so by the time he talked about it in the media, six weeks later 90% of Americans had heard the term "flying saucer".
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Isn't that crazy?
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy. I didn't realize that was such a big mind-blowing news story.
Em Schulz: And to think like 60, 70 years later, all of us, 90% of Americans would hear that like UFOs are real and none of us would give a shit. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, from the government. Yeah. And be like, "Oh, okay. Anyway, next?"
Em Schulz: Yeah. Exactly. It's like, "Okay." So after his report, UFOs, especially flying saucers, those sightings exploded. This is where we get the modern idea of aliens taking off. And uh...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: The concept of UFOs is now so big in the world at this time, that people are starting fan clubs and investigative journals and search teams. So this is the UFO craze, when we start seeing all this stuff. And in 1947 it was also the time that it was the start of the Cold War, World War II had just ended, and ideas of like these big, massive scary nuclear weapons, like A bombs were, Sputnik, they were hot topics.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So many people believed that UFOs were not related to aliens, but they were actually military crafts, so they were Soviet spies. And so...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say there was so much talk about spies too and not trusting people. So yeah, that makes sense.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it was like definitely, um, a time where there was a lot of new technology, and I don't think people were immediately thinking aliens, they were just thinking...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: This is government military equipment that is so advanced and...
Christine Schiefer: Like classified and yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, plenty of people thought it could be aliens, and a lot of people thought it could be aliens and the military like collabing together.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: They felt like global militaries working with aliens who had like more advanced technology, and so there was a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, "Well, which side are the aliens on? Are they on our side?" Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So there was a lot of um, distrust and a lot of fear and a lot of awareness that technology was, you know, exploding. I mean, in 1947, a lot of people who were living at that time lived in a time before cars, and now all of a sudden there were things flying in the fucking air and there's...
Christine Schiefer: Fair point. They've seen quite a jump technology-wise.
Em Schulz: It was jets and, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I think they're just like, "Yeah, things are booming and I don't know which way is up." So.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, many US leaders were also really worried because they didn't know what was out there. They knew what we were capable of, but for all they knew the Soviet spies had something else, and...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So as the UFO fever spread and was kind of overlapped with, you know, the distrust in the military, or fear for the Cold War, um, the military made plans to officially investigate UFO sightings, 'cause a lot of the leaders didn't even know what was going on.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So in 1948, it didn't start as Project Blue Book, it started as Project Sign. S-I-G-N, sign.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And it was launched near Dayton, Ohio, at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
Christine Schiefer: That's where my mommy works.
Em Schulz: At that Air Force base?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, Wright State University is like on... Well, it's like affiliated, so um, a lot of military.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And it, listen, it just adds to how weird Ohio is. All the... There's a lot of sightings up in Dayton by the Wright-Patt Airforce base.
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wright-Patt, ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Wright-Patt, yeah. [chuckle] Wright-Patt, go uh... Oh shit. Go uh...
Em Schulz: Go planes. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Go Orvilles.
Em Schulz: Go aliens.
Christine Schiefer: What are they called? Oh no. Oh my, this is so bad. My brother and my sister and my mom all went there. Uh. Oh, the Raiders. Rowdy Raiders.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Go Raiders, Rowdy Raiders.
Em Schulz: I love the na... I love the word "rowdy".
Christine Schiefer: I do too. It's a good one.
Em Schulz: It's a good one. Some words just, just roll out of ya.
Christine Schiefer: Some words just like work, you know?
Em Schulz: "Rowdy Raiders". That's fun.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: So... [chuckle] So in they created Project Sign in 1948, and it was to investigate like all these sightings that people were seeing. Like, "Are they aliens? Is it military we don't know about? What's the deal?" And in the end Project Sign didn't actually find any compelling evidence that it was extraterrestrials piloting UFOs, but a year later, Project Sign evolved into a different project called Project Grudge.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's scary.
Em Schulz: I wonder how they pick the names?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what the fuck? Explain yourself, please. That's a scary name.
Em Schulz: It's gotta be like when you name like hurricanes, how there's like an order to it. You know?
Christine Schiefer: The alphabetical. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I wonder like are, you know. And also hurricanes when they're alphabetical, why did they only pick a certain name? Like, "Okay, we've got E," and they just like, they just like pick a random E name?
Christine Schiefer: Eleanor. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or is there like a certified E name you have to run with?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, but I think they're supposed to switch the, quote unquote, "gender" of the name. Isn't that true? I don't know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. I think so. It's boy, girl, boy, girl, boy, girl.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I think. Okay, well anyway.
Christine Schiefer: So heteronormative, these fucking hurricanes.
Em Schulz: Honestly, it's actually pretty feminist. It's very equal.
Christine Schiefer: It's like I'm offended. Oh. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I'll still be offended, that's fine.
Christine Schiefer: It's easier.
Em Schulz: Yeah, okay, you're right, I'm mad. Um.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're right, I'm mad now.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So in 1949, Sign evolved into Grudge, which does feel more masculine. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: But it once again found no compelling evidence of any extraterrestrials and so the project kinda ended in 1951, But then the next year, Sign and Grudge would both become Project Blue Book, which is now the longest running and best known, um, best known publicized now, um you know, investigation into UFOs. And Project Blue Book was officially active between 1940... Or no, 1952 to 1969. So that's what? 17 years. And was headed by Air Force captain Edward J. Ruppelt. And the astronomer... I always, I don't know why I always mess up his name, but always throws me off. Dr. J. Allen Hynek. Um, he is a... He's known... I've talked about him a lot in other stories, either UFOs. I think he actually like also jumped on the Mothman train.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: But he was a UFO research consultant to the Air Force at this time, and he became the lead scientists on Project Blue Book.
Em Schulz: So he's like the man when it comes to you know, aliens, UFOs, all that good stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Space boats.
Em Schulz: Space boats. And Dr. Hynek worked for Ohio State, he worked for uh, John Hopkins...
Christine Schiefer: O-H. I can do all the... I can do all the fun...
Em Schulz: What's Ohio's State's um...
Christine Schiefer: I-O.
Em Schulz: Oh, I-O.
Christine Schiefer: The Buckeyes, baby.
Em Schulz: The rowdy Buckeyes, or?
Christine Schiefer: I'm not really an Ohio State fan. My... Renée went to their law school, but that's... My affiliation ends there.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Before anybody's like, "How dare you?" People take this shit seriously.
Em Schulz: Do you have a, do you have a team you like? Or is it the Rowdy Raiders?
Christine Schiefer: I gotta say it's probably the... Listen, I love the Louisville... No. That's not even the right town. I love the... [chuckle] The Y'alls. The Florence Y'alls.
Em Schulz: Oh I love the Florence Y'alls.
Christine Schiefer: Okay? That's my team. Let's leave it at that. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Good for you. Have you been to any of their games?
Christine Schiefer: I haven't, but I really want to. It always conflicted with bedtime. But I think like next summer we'll be able to go. Finally.
Em Schulz: It'd be fun. Leona would have a great time.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm thinking. They have a lot of family nights and stuff, so yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh imagine her with like a little bunch of Ketchup and mustard all over her face from a hot dog.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't need to imagine that. That's a daily occurrence. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay, but for me it's glamorized and I'm like all about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for you it's adorable. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh wow, I would love to go to a Florence Y'alls game with her...
Christine Schiefer: You come and we'll go? Wouldn't that be fun?
Em Schulz: We'll have matching jerseys. We'll have matching jerseys.
Christine Schiefer: That could be like you guys' activity, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, every time Funcle Em comes to town, we go to a Florence Y'alls game.
Christine Schiefer: That's so fun.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We'll both have Ketchup and mustard all over our faces. It will be a great time.
Christine Schiefer: That'll be adorable for me. Not.
Em Schulz: It will be so fun. Then I'll be like, "Christine, you have to wipe my face too." [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I'll wash your faces when you get home. I know, I was gonna say I'll wash both of your faces. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay. Um, where were we? Where were we? Oh, so Dr. Hynek works for Ohio State, he worked for Johns Hopkins, he worked at the Harvard College Observatory and the Navy and the Air Force. So um, he was quite an academic. And he was famously responsible for the Hynek Scale, which we talked about in past episodes...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it's um... He was also the one who, by the way, he thought that UFO craze would die out like hula hoops. Do you remember talking about that?
Christine Schiefer: That's right! Yes, I absolutely do. 'Cause we went of course, on the craziest tangent about that.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes, yes. So um, quick review on the Hynek Scale, it is uh, the list of different types of close encounters. So it's... Do you want me to tell you what they are? Or you wanna guess what they are?
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Yeah, you tell me.
Em Schulz: The close encounter of the first kind, do you know what that is?
Christine Schiefer: The first kind is just seeing a UFO, right?
Em Schulz: Wow, you're so smart with your big fat brain, look at that.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Do you like that I tilt my head like a dog? I'm like, "Did I do it right?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So yes, the first... The encounter... A close encounter of the first kind is seeing the UFO at five to 600 feet away or less.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, so that's scary enough, five to 600 feet away.
Christine Schiefer: That seems a lot, yeah. I don't like close.
Em Schulz: Certainly too close. Um, so it's because at that range the witness can make out considerable details.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Um. A close encounter of the second kind, do you know what that is?
Christine Schiefer: Is that seeing an extraterrestrial?
Em Schulz: No. In the middle. It's when there's an alleged presence. So like they can...
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: There's signs that something was there, so scorch marks like an aircraft was there...
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh.
Em Schulz: Or raised radiation levels, malfunctioning electronics, animals acting weird, us feeling weird. Um. And then the third encounter is when you actually see an entity.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Okay.
Em Schulz: So that can be either someone piloting the UFO or making physical contact with them.
Christine Schiefer: Blegh.
Em Schulz: And then later they added on the fourth kind, which was abductions.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "I guess we need one more step," which is the worst of all.
Em Schulz: Isn't that wild though, that when the scale first came out it didn't even occur to them that something would take us...
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't even a thought. Uh! So scary.
Em Schulz: You know, the first time someone got taken, they were like, "Oh shit, lets... "
Christine Schiefer: "What kind is this? You didn't warn me about this."
Em Schulz: "Our scale is not made for that." Um.
Christine Schiefer: "Three and a half?"
Em Schulz: Right. So Dr. Hynek was um, actually a noted skeptic and he aimed to evaluate the cases with an open mind, but I think he went into each of them probably trying to debunk it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And by this time there were many more public panic about UFOs, this is still in um... What year is this? I think this is 52-ish.
Christine Schiefer: It's like Cold War times?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um. There's still a lot of public panic for like probably the last five years now about UFOs and the Air Force started having like hold press conferences, they're like, "Everything's good, it's not an alien, like everyone stop freaking the fuck out." But...
Christine Schiefer: That's helpful. "Stop freaking out. It's not aliens. We're just studying it in the background. Don't worry about it."
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so at the same time, they're like, "It's not aliens." From Project Sign, they said there's no sign of extraterrestrials. Project Grudge said there's no sign of extraterrestrials. But even then as like government intel, they're like, "Okay, so if it's not extraterrestrials, what the fuck is it?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And so they're trying to calm people down about aliens while also being very scared that it's something like not American and freaking people out. And this is during the Cold War.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz:And so the Director of Air Force Intelligence, he said that um... He said that almost every sighting had been explained, this was during the press conference, he said that almost every sighting has been explained, and the ones that haven't been explained, the Air Force is looking into. And he said some sightings were, quote, "Made by credible observers to relatively incredible things. It is this group of observations that we are now attempting to resolve." So he was at least saying like, "There are things that we can't explain. We'll acknowledge that."
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: "But we are looking into it."
Christine Schiefer: That's nice of you. Thank you, that's so nice.
Em Schulz: Um. At he same time, he was saying um... He said, "It's not alien or it's not, you know, intergalactic...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um but we don't know what it is." And then he also told the nation that uh, none of the sightings seemingly pose a threat, so like we should be fine. But also they weren't, quote, "Connected to any secret development by any agency of the United States." So he was like, "I would like to say it's a government thing and we can't talk about it, but even we don't know what's going on."
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, that's not comforting. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Yeah, so it's like comforting in one way, where he's like, "Don't worry, it's not this thing, but also it could be this thing."
Christine Schiefer: "But also we're a little scared too." It's like, uh we don't wanna know that.
Em Schulz: Yeah, and during the height of like the Cold War so everyone's freaking out. And at this point, the military seemed less interested in figuring out aliens and they were more interested in like what the hell are these machines up in the sky.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So more than aliens, the CIA was worried about the Soviet Union, and not only that, but they're worried that the Soviet Union was going to use this UFO hysteria to their advantage and like use that as a tactic to get us.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So they thought that the Soviet Union would use the many reports, like citing reports, to induce mass hysteria and like spread propaganda.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And they were also scared that the Soviet intelligence might actually overwhelm their air warning systems with false UFO reports to distract the military from an actual aerial attack.
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. So they're like this is a weakness now in war time. Oh no.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They are like, they're just going to... They're going to be calling in so many UFO sightings, even if they're fake...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Just to like distract us when there's like, they're actually flying in their own planes and we won't hear about it.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right.
Em Schulz: And it became a matter of national security to end this UFO craze. Um. And by the way, the UFO craze is sometimes called the "saucer era", which I love.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, I learned that too, and I was like, how... How saucy.
Christine Schiefer: It is saucy. I almost said that. I was like, "Christine, shut up." So I'm glad you said it.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So the goal in investigating UFO sightings officially became not trying to find aliens, but to debunk them and to end America's fascination with them, so that way the Soviet Union intelligence couldn't use it against us.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Okay. I didn't realize that.
Em Schulz: That's why I said that the notes changed, because I was expecting to do this whole tell-all, and it ended up being me finding out that Project Blue Book wasn't all about aliens like I wanted it to be.
Christine Schiefer: Right. [laughter] It's more about Russia.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Um. And so it, uh... Yeah, it changed. So after debunking, they haven't debunked yet, but the goal of Project Blue Book became trying to debunk the UFO sightings uh, in general, not just as aliens...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: But debunking what they are. And then the goal was to educate the public on aircraft and natural phenomenon to explain away any future sightings. So that way instead of calling in about it, to keep the, the airwaves clear, they could just know enough about airships to be able to determine if it was really a UFO they saw.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I got you.
Em Schulz: So, according to declassified CIA documents, the uh, propaganda campaign involved, quote, "Using the mass media, advertising, business clubs, schools and even the Disney Corporation to get the message across."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Now, that sounds very dystopian. Like we had to bring Disney on board. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Walt Disney was probably like, "Oh my God, like I'm so important. Look how special I am that the government needs me."
Christine Schiefer: "It's my time to shine, baby."
Em Schulz: So like, I wonder if...
Christine Schiefer: "Down with the communists."
Em Schulz: That means at some point, did like the CIA come to fucking Disney Land and like talk to him about animating planes more? Like I wonder if we go back and look at that time...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, if there's a shift in the animation. Interesting.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh Em, I like that thought though.
Em Schulz: But I mean hey, they were trying to do mass media to teach everybody about aircrafts and natural phenomenon, so.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But also I don't... Yeah, I don't know. Um.
Em Schulz: So it was also recommended that civilian UFO organizations should be watched closely because of their ability to influence people on their own with their own theories.
Christine Schiefer: So this is when they try to make people sound crazy for...
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, yeah, yeah. Like gaslighting.
Em Schulz: Truly. The goal was to undermine any UFO research until the public became uh, so over UFOs and that they thought the UFOs were nothing but like nonsense.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that's so rude. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So like even these really intense civilian organizations who are trying really, really hard and...
Christine Schiefer: It ticks me off.
Em Schulz: And maybe, or even like on the brink of discovering something...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: They're like being either shut down or like... Like um...
Christine Schiefer: I'm offended.
Em Schulz: Or like some other competitive propaganda is coming out, like rival propaganda to like say otherwise. So I understand what they were trying to do because it was a national security threat, but also like there are people that they're actually trying to study this and now you've just shut all of it down.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and now you make them all look crazy and it's gonna take decades for people to take them seriously again.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And so as Blue Book continued, the CIA's interest in UFOs started to fade and officials were trying to pass off the responsibility to other departments, um, because I guess their propaganda worked and people started not caring as much?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so they were like, "Well, now it's not utmost importance." So however, in 1956, the former head of Project Blue Book, that Captain Edward Ruppelt, he published the Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. And in this report on UFOs, Edward references the estimate of the situation, which is this... We... The only person who's ever talked about it and has claimed to see it is this guy. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But the estimate of the situation is this alleged official report on the findings of that very early Project Sign, and which they actually found that extraterrestrials are real, and they just covered it up.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh, okay.
Em Schulz: So when Project Sign originally came out and then they announced publicly like, "Oh, we haven't found anything that says anything about extraterrestrials," and it almost disbanded and then it got re-started to be Grudge and Grudge also didn't find anything, he is now saying that there's a section called the... There's this report called the Estimate of the Situation that says, that was a total lie and they just covered it up and extraterrestrials are very real.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ahhh.
Em Schulz: Um, and according to his book, higher-ups condemned the report and ordered all copies go to the incinerator to destroy it...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And then to publicly announce that extraterrestrials were not found during Project Sign.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: To this day, there is no evidence of the Estimate of the Situation beyond Edward's claims, so...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: We'll never know, but he was like in charge of Project Blue Book. So um, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Man, I wish he'd just like kept one, stuffed it down his pants and was like, "Yup, incinerator." "Gone."
Em Schulz: I know. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I would just wish.
Em Schulz: I wonder how many times though, someone in the government has tried to do that to be like a whistle-blower and it like got found out? Like...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it must be a really scary thing to try and pull off.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure like if you have that kind of information and you like strapped on to like your thigh or something, and then try walking away...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They'd probably kill you, like you're a national threat to security.
Christine Schiefer: You're a threat now, yeah. Oh geez.
Em Schulz: So uh, to this day, there is no evidence of the Estimate of the Situation. However, the book ignited major controversy and demands for the military to de-classify any UFO investigations they've done.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And the public pressure got so intense that even the FBI started investigating reporters.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And in 1966, the Air Force announced that it was forming a contract to create an official investigative report which would be available to the public. So... Uh. And this was, they worked with the University of Colorado who took what is today a $3 million contract with the Air Force to conduct an 18-month-long study of flying saucer reports.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, okay.
Em Schulz: Physicist, Dr. Edward Condon headed the program, and he was saying that the uh... He said the existence of flying saucers are improbable, but not impossible. So he was very interested in being a part of this. And in 1969, the program ended up releasing what their findings, and their findings were called The Scientific Studies of Unidentified Flying Objects, but because Dr. Edward Condon was in charge of all of this, that, uh, same report, The Scientific Studies of Identified Flying Objects is also known as the Condon Report.
Christine Schiefer: Ah okay, I have heard of that.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I think we talked about that a couple episodes ago.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you've mentioned that, I think.
Em Schulz: And so the Condon Report is... This will jog your memory. It was almost 15,000 pages long.
Christine Schiefer: Yup, I already remember. I'm like, what the fuck?
Em Schulz: And it had 37 contributing scientists, and the whole thing covered five categories, which, what's that? 3000 pages each? Umm... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Jesus. That's crazy.
Em Schulz: These are the categories that are covered. Old UFO reports from before 1966. New reports since 1966. Photographic cases, radar and visual cases, and then UFOs reported by astronauts.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting, okay.
Em Schulz: And Condon himself stated that 21 years of investigation um, had produced no conclusive evidence of extraterrestrials and no further research was needed. Um. And especially...
Christine Schiefer: I call bullshit.
Em Schulz: I call bullshit too.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I was like, yeah, "Oh, who are you? Project Sign? Okay."
Christine Schiefer: "Oh wo are you? 15,000 pages? Okay."
Em Schulz: Can you imagine writing 15,000 pages and not a single lick of that being evidence of extraterrestrials?
Christine Schiefer: And then some dumbass on a podcast is like, "I don't believe any of your 15,000 pages."
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: "So take that." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: All the hard work you put into it. I don't wanna acknowledge any of it.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. You're wrong.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm such an ass.
Em Schulz: I know. Um. So there's a special panel that formed by the National Academy of Sciences, and they reviewed the report and declared, quote, "On the basis of present knowledge, the least likely explanation of UFOs is a hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitations of intelligent beings."
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Okay.
Em Schulz: So they sided with the Condon Committee, and both of them, the Condon Committee and the National Academy of Sciences, both recommended pulling the plug on further investigations. I feel like, because I'm apparently a conspiracy theorist and all this, I feel like someone held a gun to their head and said, "You close this fucking investigation down and don't let anyone know."
Christine Schiefer: You tell them. It's exactly right, Em. I guarantee it.
Em Schulz: You know what?
Christine Schiefer: I don't guarantee it, I don't guarantee it. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Not a shred of doubt on my mind.
Christine Schiefer: Not a single shred, no.
Em Schulz: So in December of 1969, the Secretary of the Air Force announced the official termination of Project Blue Book, and according to national archives, between 1947 and 1969, so the entirety of Project Sign all the way to the end of Project Blue Book.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: During that time, Project Blue Book looked into 12,618 UFO sightings.
Christine Schiefer: 12,600... Wow.
Em Schulz: And only 701 of them were made unexplained, which to me, that's 700 fucking cases that are unexplained.
Christine Schiefer: We talked about that, I think?
Em Schulz: We did, we've talked about this before.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and we're saying, just and which Jim Harold always says, which I love like, just one has... One story has to be true, just one ghost has to be real...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: For it to all be real. For it to be possible. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Yeah. That's, I'm right on board with you.
Christine Schiefer: 700 is a lot more than one.
Em Schulz: I will say 700 out of 12.6000 though is only 0.06%.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's a lot smaller than it sounds. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. It doesn't feel all that big anymore. So only 0.06% of UFO sighting cases in the entire time during the like mass hysteria, people looking into the sky every day.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Only 0.06% are unexplained. And that, by the way, again, me being a conspiracy theorist, that's what they want you to think.
Christine Schiefer: That's what they want you to think. Exactly right, Em.
Em Schulz: So, many do believe that thousands of the explained cases, which is, this is where I fall, a lot of people think that of the thousands that were explained, they weren't investigated fairly. Um, so they were just kinda slapped with the label of "explained".
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like weather balloon, basically.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Like swamp gas.
Em Schulz: Even, there was an article in Popular Mechanics where an author named Mark McConnell, or... Mark O'Connell, he said, "It was a rigged game because Blue Book investigators were under constant pressure to debunk and explain away any and all UFO reports. The worst sin one could commit on the Blue Book staff was to mark a case unexplained."
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. So it was just intense, like there was, um, an ulterior motive here and you were supposed to be following protocol.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it could have been because people didn't wanna create more mass hysteria, so don't label it a UFO.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Or, "Hey, we really need this explained because otherwise we as a military need to be worried about what the fuck this is,"...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: "Because it could be... You know. It could be after us."
Christine Schiefer: It's basically, "Research this, but you better not find anything."
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, well, shit. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Exactly. It reminds me a lot of when I covered Snippy the horse, and like this was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: A horse that was like... I think, I don't even remember the story anymore, but he was like mutilated in some way. It was... There were scorch marks.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh yes.
Em Schulz: It was like weird goo everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it was horrible.
Em Schulz: But investigators still, they couldn't come up with an explanation so they just called it solved. Like... It was like, what the fuck? Like how is that solved and not a UFO? So um, it reminds me of that where like there is something glaring in front of you that like something's off...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they just close the case 'cause they didn't wanna deal with it. So.
Christine Schiefer: That's infuriating.
Em Schulz: So yeah, there were, you know, only 0.06% were not explained, but the rest of them that were...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like there were probably a lot of Snippy the horses in there...
Christine Schiefer: Aww. I hope not. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Where it was very clearly, very clearly alien, and they were like, "Nope."
Christine Schiefer: They were like "Sorry. Just a dead horse. Just another dead horse."
Em Schulz: Just another dead horse with like an alien sign branded into it.
Christine Schiefer: With goo all over. Yeah [laughter]
Em Schulz: So eventually, Dr. Hynek, who created the Hynek Scale, and he was also in charge of Project Blue Book at one point. Eventually, he speaks critically on Project Blue Book, and he said that there wasn't a fair effort to investigate the cases with an open mind, so he is validating this theory.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. Interesting.
Em Schulz: And he said the entire operation was a foul up based on the categorical premise that the incredible things reported could not possibly have any basis in fact. So, um, he ends up becoming...
Christine Schiefer: So it was biased from the start, basically.
Em Schulz: Yes, 1000%.
Christine Schiefer: That's bullshit.
Em Schulz: He became a fierce advocate for true scientific study into the UFO problem, and he said that they all really deserved genuine scientific consideration. But as he really got into this world of UFOs and he advocated for more research on them, universities ended up becoming embarrassed by their association with him.
Christine Schiefer: Aw.
Em Schulz: Um. Which like in my mind, I'm like, you're embarrassed that he wants scientific study methods to be in place? Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he probably was labeled as like a kook, you know? That's sad.
Em Schulz: Yes. I think so. And he ended up retiring from academia altogether just to go into studying UFOs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow.
Em Schulz: And on being a consultant on military research, he said, "I started almost as a complete skeptic because I thought the whole thing was a question of post-war nerves,..."
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: "But it was the persistence of the phenomenon and it refused to dry up and blow away, and that finally led me to the belief that we had a real phenomenon to deal with."
Christine Schiefer: What a smart guy. Like I feel like it takes a lot to like have a conviction, like be so skeptical and then like turn that around based on the evidence. That's really a big move, I feel like.
Em Schulz: Especially for like a 1950s man to like admit you were wrong, or.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I don't think that... Yeah. "I don't think I was right." That, I'm impressed.
Em Schulz: He ended up saying that the term "flying saucer" was, quote, "Most unfortunate because it opens the door to a great deal of buffoonery." I love that he used the word "buffoonery".
Christine Schiefer: Pffft. Sorry, that's the best word ever. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: There's the Rowdy Raiders and the Buffoonery Buckeyes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're 100% right. That's beautiful. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: He believed that the imagery of the flying saucer made UFOs seem silly and prevented witnesses from coming forward for fear of ridicule.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, which that's true, that's fair.
Em Schulz: Um. And Dr. Hynek said that it's witnesses... He said that people who have seen UFOs, if you're listening essentially, it is your scientific duty to share your experiences, so that way we have a compilation of reports. Um. And he stated that the reports and, uh, anyone who reported to him, it would be anonymous. So if you're afraid of being ridiculed, "I just want all the stories so I can look into them."
Christine Schiefer: I love that, I love that.
Em Schulz: In 1986, Dr. Hynek died, and uh, he died still an adamant advocate that uh, we needed scientific study and further attention to UFOs. And years later, an official statement said that there hasn't been any new reasons to resurrect the UFO investigations from the Air Force. Um. They literally said, there's no reason to go back into looking at UFOs because of the, quote, "Steadily decreasing defense budget." Which, let me remind you that the US has the largest military and defense budget in the entire world.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It has more than the other nine top spending countries combined.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, that's horrifying.
Em Schulz: And I think in 2020 they spent $778 billion on military defense expenses.
Christine Schiefer: Billion. Billion with a B.
Em Schulz: So like she's fine. I can't believe someone is saying like, "Well, but it's steadily decreasing."
Christine Schiefer: "We're so broke."
Em Schulz: "Next year it might be 777 billion. Oh no."
Christine Schiefer: Get fucking rocket money on the case, 'cause they will tell you you're mismanaged your money. Okay, government?
Em Schulz: Exactly. And for them also to be saying like, "Oh well, we can't afford it, to look into investigations, we don't even know if aliens are real." Uh, let's travel back about six months ago...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: When we started finding out that in recent Congressional hearings on UFOs were government officials are straight up saying, "Aliens are real. I've looked him in the eyes. I have worked with them, I've spoken with them, I have keys to Area 51. The things that I've seen your brain wouldn't even be able to process."
Christine Schiefer: Ser.. I mean...
Em Schulz: "They are dangerous. They could hurt us. Thank God they've been nice so far. I've seen people die at the hands of them." And also, we just got that weird little picture of a spirit Halloween alien skeleton or whatever that was. We've all seen it, now that they are showing little aliens, that...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, It's... it's on C-SPAN. Like it can't get more like fuddy duddy boring news, you know? C... No offense to all the C-SPAN lovers out out there, but like, come on, this isn't like, "Oh, TikTok is unveiling a conspiracy." It's like, no, this was literally a Congressional hearing.
Em Schulz: It's just wild to me. So for all of their statements of like, "Oh, we're not gonna look into UFOs and we don't have the budget for it,"
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: First of all, the biggest lie to ever come out of anyone's mouth is the military saying, "We don't have the budget for it." What are you talking about?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, but they're using all that fucking money, that's the thing. They probably don't have the budget 'cause they're mis-managing how they're spending it.
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Please don't hurt me anybody. I'm scared now that I'm saying that. Ah!
Em Schulz: If we go missing, it's the military's fault.
Christine Schiefer: And you can't do anything about it 'cause they're gonna cover it up.
Em Schulz: But just know. But just know. Um. But also like for them to say, "Oh, we're not gonna look into UFOs," and now six months later, it's been proven that not only were they looking into UFOs, they were fully conspiring with UFOs. They were like...
Christine Schiefer: They were speaking with extraterrestrials, communicated with extraterrestrials. Hello?
Em Schulz: Fucking friendships with aliens or something. So... Um.
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: Anyway, the... If you ever wanna go look at the highlights of that on TikTok, they're all there for ya.
Christine Schiefer: It's amazing. Em sent it to me and my mind was fucking blown.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] So yeah, anyway, especially since the Congressional hearings where government officials straight up told us that aliens are real. And by the way, none of us cared because the world's on fire. That's the best part. You know that they wanted us to give a shit.
Christine Schiefer: No, they didn't, because they posted it on like a Friday night, so that nobody... It wouldn't get like prime time news, and so like it just got completely brushed aside.
Em Schulz: You're totally right.
Christine Schiefer: They like tried to... Tried to keep it on the DL.
Em Schulz: Well, guess what, it stayed on the DL because everyone heard and went, "Whatever."
Christine Schiefer: It worked, yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So anyway, the skepticism of the findings in Project Blue Book before recently and the criticisms made by scientists and military personnel, uh, they... It continued to fuel these theories that the Air Force, the CIA and the FBI were covering something up. And quelle surprise they were. But fun fact, now, Project Blue Book's records can be accessed in the National Archives. You can go read it yourself if you'd like.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Kickass.
Em Schulz: And many of the reports have been digitized, so I wanted to use those to my advantage with these notes, but honestly, I think a 101 was the perfect way to start this, so.
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: That's Project Blue Book.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Good job, Em.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: It's a big topic. That's a daunting topic. I think you did a great job. And um, you didn't leave any of us behind in your telling of it. So now we're ready for the next... We're graduating.
Em Schulz: We're graduating.
Christine Schiefer: To 201.
Em Schulz: If I find any more, we'll have a 201. Is it 201 or a 102?
Christine Schiefer: I think it's 201, 'cause I think "2" indicates like it's the next level.
Em Schulz: But then why do we even have the 01? Wouldn't it just be level 100, level 200?
Christine Schiefer: No, 'cause I think once you get more detail, so like 202 might be Project Blue Book, uh...
Em Schulz: I'll look that up later. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Something more specific. Like if it's like, anthropology, it's not like Anthropology 101, it's like... And then you have 201, which is the second basic of anthropology, 203 might be like anthropology in this country, like more specified. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: You might be right, you might.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, I'm probably not. I do know it goes 101, 201. I think those are just like the levels. Um.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Like they're the intensity levels, but then the numbers at the end represent the categories.
Christine Schiefer: Like which class. Yes, yes, yes. I think that's it.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I'm pretty sure. Go Rowdy Raiders.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: But my mom's...
Em Schulz: Go Buffoonery Buckeyes.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: My mom, she's probably like, "What the fuck, Christine. That's not how it works." Okay, so Em, I have a story for you, and it's interesting that yours was kind of... I don't know, I think maybe it's a similar situation where this is not as much as a deep dive as um our wonderful researcher, Saoirse and I expected, um because there's just a really, really limited amount of information on it.
Em Schulz: Look at us. Look at us just always having the same brain.
Christine Schiefer: Just, just... Just...
Em Schulz: Two ships in the night, Christine.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: There we go.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Two peas in a pod. Peanut butter and jelly. So this is the disappearance of Susan Wolff.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, I just wanna write a little note here. Susan Wolff, uh, her legal name when she disappeared was Susan Wolff Cappel, um but she was in the middle of a very contentious divorce, and her obituary by her family only used her maiden name, so I think we're going to stick with just the main name out of respect.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And uh, here we go. This is an Ohio story. Susan Wolff was born March 30th, 1962, to Judy and James or Jim Wolff. And she was born and raised in a town called Newcomerstown...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is in Ohio. It is about an hour and a half northeast of Columbus, and it is in the Appalachian region of Ohio, on the Tuscarawas River. It is largely surrounded by forests and farmland, and just 20 minutes from Salt Fork, which is like a wildlife area and includes Salt Fork State Park, uh so just kinda out in the boonies, so to speak. For the last several decades, the population of Newcomerstown has hovered pretty steadily around 4000 residents, so a pretty small town. And it's of course the sort of place, very cliche, but where everyone feels a sense of security, everyone feels like they know each other, um people feel safe, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And we sometimes see that and it's a red flag in these stories. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I know. Nowadays when something's safe, I'm like, like I kinda wish it would start dangerous just so like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, same.
Em Schulz: I'm already on edge.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. That's why I have such a... [chuckle] What do they say? Like... I don't know, I have that issue where I expect the worst, 'cause then if something good happens...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: I'm like pleasantly surprised, but I'm prepared just in case. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of kind of how it is. So people felt like they were safe in this kind of a small rural town. Susan herself was an active member of the community, she was part of the youth ministry at St. Paul's Lutheran Church. She was really proud to be in the Lutheran church. In high school, she was a trombone player and a head majorette, which is a baton twirler.
Em Schulz: I can twirl baton. Do you know that?
Christine Schiefer: Can you really?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Is this part of clown college?
Em Schulz: No, it was part of summer camp.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [chuckle] How many extracurricular activities of yours were like clown related?
Em Schulz: That's fair. I probably could have used it. But I will say very similarly, so I did baton twirling at summer camp and I did plate spinning in clown college. So.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like there has to be a little crossover with that skill, maybe? Maybe not?
Em Schulz: I'm really good with the wrist, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there you go. You got that wrist strength.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's a very powerful skill. Congratulations.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently, she was such a good baton twirler that she actually, during high school began, she got like certified somehow and began teaching courses at like a dance school in town. So she was um... You know, not to put you on blast, Em, but very good at baton twirling. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay, okay. It's fine. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. My bad. She also led her own group called The Purple Riderettes.
Em Schulz: Okay girl, the Rowdy Riderettes.
Christine Schiefer: The Rowdy Riderettes! That's good. So in her senior year of high school in 1980, Susan was very surprised to discover she was pregnant. So she had been dating this guy, uh but the pregnancy came as a surprise. And like happened so often back in the day, uh she married her boyfriend because of this situation.
Em Schulz: What you had to do.
Christine Schiefer: What you had to do. And her boyfriend's name was Allen Cappel, and they had a son named Damon. And Susan absolutely adored Damon. He was her whole life. But unfortunately, Susan and Allen's relationship uh was not happy. I mean, they got married when she was 17 and he was 19, and they immediately had a kid together.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like the amount of pressure and like getting roped into something so young, I imagine is just very difficult.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they had a very contentious relationship, Susan left him three times during their relationship, and the third and final time she left was early 1982, so this was about two years into their marriage. She was only 19 years old. Susan showed up at her parents house with nothing but the clothes on her back, and she told her parents she and Allen were filing for a divorce, and she said, "You know what, I'll do whatever I have to, I'll go on welfare if I need to." And her parents said, "No, no. We'll take care of you and Damon. Like, we'll make sure you're taken care of."
Christine Schiefer: So Susan, of course, wanted to provide for Damon, so she started structuring her life to allow for that, and what she would do is two nights a week she would commute 45 minutes to work at a hospital in Canton, Ohio, and that job would soon become full-time and she was really excited for that to be like a full-time career for her. But until then she decided to take a second part-time job at the IGA grocery store in Newcomerstown. So Susan was working toward a goal of being financially independent from Allen, uh, especially because the divorce was uh upcoming...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she wanted to have a chance at custody of their son. This was tough because of course, along with a heated divorce often comes a heated custody battle, and Allen at this point had temporary custody and full control over whether Susan could see her son. So she felt like she needed to... She felt like it was basically an uphill battle to try and get custody of her son, but she was going to try as hard as she possibly could. So one day when Susan was supposed to pick Damon up to spend time with him, Allen just flat out refused to meet with her and said...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Never mind, you can't see your son." And he...
Em Schulz: Ahuh! Class act.
Christine Schiefer: Class act, exactly. She flipped out. She was like, "You know what?" She called her attorney. She said, "I'm done with this." And her attorney said, "Well, the good news is we are ready to get this custody hearing going, and a date has been set."
Em Schulz: Ooh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, this was a big deal. Custody proceedings had already been delayed twice, so she felt like this was just an ongoing... She couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel until now, so she was absolutely thrilled. She told her mom, she told Judy, "Mom, it's the best news, I'm so happy." And this part... [sigh] makes me tear up, but she spent the rest of the day, she bought paint to paint her own childhood bedroom for her son.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: And she said, "This is gonna be our room, we're gonna sleep here," and uh, the room had been painted orange when she was in high school, and now she went out and bought green paint and spent the day painting the room to prepare for Damon's arrival after the custody hearing, which like just tears my heart into pieces.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So she was in her parent's stable home, two jobs under the roof, uh, you know. Two incomes basically, uh a safe place to be a family, lots of people to watch him. She was like, "This is perfect. They're definitely gonna grant me custody." She told a friend, "I have good news, I finally see the light at the end of the tunnel." So she was just... Felt like she was finally turning a corner.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So just before leaving for her 04:00 PM shift at IGA, Susan was in very high spirits. Um, she told her mom, "I will be at that custody hearing."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And those were unfortunately some of the last words Judy Wolff ever heard from her daughter.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So at 06:00 PM, Susan's dad, which I think this is very adorable, stopped in at the grocery store deli to get dinner and see his daughter at work, like he would pop in.
Em Schulz: That is such a dad thing to do.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that cute? I thought so too. Like, "I'll just pop in, grab a ham sandwich and say hi."
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: So he went and saw her and she was halfway through her shift, um so her shift ended at 09:00, he went to go get dinner. He saw Susan's car, the family car out in the parking lot, said hi to his daughter um and said, "I'll see you when you get home." But once he got home, 09:00 PM came and went and Susan didn't arrive home. She only lived a mile away, her parents only lived a mile away from the grocery store, and it would have only taken a matter of minutes to drive home and she had the car at work, so it was very odd that she didn't come home shortly after 09:00.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. And it wasn't like her to just go make plans with friends last minute and not tell her parents, so they were let's just say uncomfy, they were like, "Something is not right, but we're gonna wait it out and hope that she just forgot to tell us where she was." She also had just gone to work with her uniform and did not bring her purse or wallet with her. So essentially, like if she was out running errands, she didn't have her purse, she didn't have her wallet.
Em Schulz:Right.
Christine Schiefer: She didn't have a change of clothes.
Em Schulz: It just didn't make sense. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't make sense. And she was last seen wearing her, she was wearing her IGA apron, so it's not like she was going out with friends without a wallet and a change of clothes or whatever. So just very odd. Um, Judy later said in an interview, "We just had a horrible night that night. I was like, 'I don't know what's happened, Jim.' We didn't know, but I felt something horrible had probably happened."
Em Schulz: Just like a gut feeling.
Christine Schiefer: Just a gut feeling. And it must be so scary 'cause it's just night time and there's nothing you can do.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "Do I go to sleep? Do I like drive around looking? Do I call the police? But they're gonna say... "
Em Schulz: You have one of those gut feelings. Like they're not fucking around a lot of the time, so if I ever had a gut feeling, like...
Christine Schiefer: Your intuition kicks in.
Em Schulz: I would freak the fuck out, I would be like, what is going on?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. And so now you're just siting there and there's nothing you can do.
Christine Schiefer: You're just waiting, which is just my least favorite thing to do, as an extremely impatient person. So I can't even imagine. Umm. Still, Susan was a young adult, she was under a lot of stress as we covered, and it was possible she had made last minute plans with friends and lost track of time. So her parents were trying to convince themselves like maybe this is just her letting off some steam. But of course the morning came and Susan still wasn't home, so the Wolffs called IGA and got in touch with another woman who had worked uh the same shift as Susan that night, and she said, "Oh, I saw her leaving her shift, leaving after work." And they asked her to tell the story.
Christine Schiefer: She said, "The two of us were chatting in the parking lot, I was waiting for my husband to come pick me up, and Susan was headed toward her car when a rusty blue car that seemed like an older model, pulled into the parking lot and drove up besides Susan."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer:Susan talked to the person and then looked back at her friend and apparently made a disgusted expression as though she were like disliking the person in the car.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Almost... I imagine it is just like an ugh, like an eye roll to your friend...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, "Ugh, this guy again." So even though the friend didn't see who was in the car, she said she definitely knew the driver, because after making this kind of face at her friend, she hopped into the passenger seat and they drove away.
Em Schulz: Oh. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So we don't know what was said. We don't know who was... Who the driver was. We assume she knew him.
Em Schulz: Right, to just get in the car.
Christine Schiefer: To just hop in the car. You know?
Em Schulz: Also for it to be a disgusted eye roll look, it's like you have to be pretty close 'cause that's like... That seems like...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: A chummy thing to do.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, and it feels like a, "Ugh." Like I dislike this person so much that I'm willing to make a face right in front of them. Like, ya know to say ew.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, like I would roll my eyes at you or something. Like I feel like you have to be pretty close for that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Like I wouldn't do that with a friend I just met, 'cause we're not that close, right? I'm okay with looking like an asshole.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, 'cause then you do look like an asshole. You know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So it's bizarre because she then got in the car, so they must have said something even though she didn't like them, to convince her to get in the car.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And there's no like gun or knife. You know? So it wasn't like she was forced into the car...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Um, she went willingly, which was very odd. So you know the parents hear this and they're immediately confused, but they thought of Allen. So this is uh, Susan's husband who...
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: They're in the process of divorcing. Allen's friend, Rick Parish, owned an old blue car. And they were like, "Huh, well, they're really close. Maybe it was him. We'll figure it out." So there was...
Em Schulz: Or he was... Sorry, I was just saying, maybe it was Allen borrowing Rick's car?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, that is another... That's a very strong possibility as well. So they reached out to police, who weren't really concerned. Susan was 19, she was under a lot of stress. Maybe she just wanted to get away for a bit. Uh, but none of this added up. Again, she wouldn't have just left town in her uniform with no personal wallet, no ID, without telling... She had un-cashed paychecks at home, like it just didn't make sense. So above all, Judy and Jim were like, this custody hearing is extremely important to her, it's coming up in three weeks, there is no way in hell she was just gonna leave town and miss the custody hearing.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So Jim drove to IGA and unfortunately, I imagine his heart must have sunk because Susan's car was still sitting in the parking lot and he... She was nowhere to be found. So he contacted police who gave him permission to take it home, which he did. So Susan's family didn't know what else to do, so they basically started making flyers, which I think is like, what else can you do?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they get help from others who are putting flyers up out of state, they're trying to get people who are leaving town to like bring flyers with them and kind of spread them throughout the area, and calls pretty quickly started coming in with sightings and tips, and Jim recorded every single phone call just in case.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the Wolffs were offering a $20,000 reward for information, which uh, today is approximately $64,000. And I think the $20,000 reward came up, I think it increased to that eventually...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think it was 20,000 right off the bat, but it eventually became a $20,000 reward for any information leading to Susan's whereabouts. The Wolffs traveled across the country from New Jersey to Las Vegas following all the tips they could, but every single one was a dead end. There was even a postal worker who delivered mail to a woman in Pittsburgh named Susan Wolff, but spelled differently...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And he called in a tip, and so they went to Pittsburgh, her parents went to Pittsburgh and met this woman, but it just happened to be another woman named Susan Wolff. Um...
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: It was not the same, which must have been heartbreaking. So during the search, Judy said in an interview, "If Susan is dead, I can deal with that. I don't want to, but I can. We have places for birth and death, but where do you put that missing person?" So it's that same thing we see over and over again, like the lack of closure and how painful it is to not know...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Whether someone has died and not be able to close the chapter, give them a burial, put them to rest.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just this like constant waiting game and it like drains people.
Em Schulz: It's torture, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Torture, torture. In 1983, a Greyhound bus driver picked up a woman in Cleveland, headed south, and she requested to be dropped off at a gas station in Newcomerstown, but he said, "No, that's not the official bus stop, and that place is closed, so you gotta wait 'til we get to the official bus stop." Apparently, when she got off the bus, she began running back toward that closed gas station.
Em Schulz: Oh shit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And the driver thought that's a little bit odd. And at the freaking bus stop there was a missing poster sign...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, of her, and he looked at the photo and said, "Oh my God, that looks just like this woman that just ran away from the bus."
Em Schulz: Just ran off. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so he said she was acting strange, she was traveling with one single satchel, even though she had started the trip in Reno, Nevada, so like...
Em Schulz: What the hell.
Christine Schiefer: She was traveling cross-country with like barely anything. And she was headed toward the gas station where Rick Parish, Allen's friend, had worked at the time of her disappearance.
Em Schulz: Oh, interesting.
Christine Schiefer: It's a little bit odd. So the bus driver alerted the authorities, but they did an extensive search of the area and found nothing, no sign of her. Or no sign of the woman that, uh, could have been her.
Em Schulz: Like she just kept running off or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, she must have, uh, slipped out of the area or hid under the radar. Yeah. So once authorities reassess the details of Susan's disappearance, they finally got involved, but they really didn't do much of a large scale investigation or search effort, and the police have gotten a lot of flack from people all over the country for how much they botched this investigation.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. Judy and Jim were convinced that Allen, Allen's friend Rick Parish, and his cousin Robert Kelly Parish were responsible or at least involved somehow in Susan's disappearance. They just thought it is a little too coincidental for this nasty divorce to be going on, the custody hearing is set that day, and then she vanishes in a blue car. They were like, "We think her ex is involved and his friend Rick and his blue car." That was their theory.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. It's a good theory.
Christine Schiefer: I think so. I think it's definitely the strongest possibility at this point. But get this. Two weeks after Susan vanished, Rick and his cousin Kelly were killed in a car accident in the blue car.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so that lead was just like gone. And there is speculation online about like, do... did somebody cut the breaks? Did somebody...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: But apparently, it really was just an accident. They like...
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Rolled off an embankment and were killed. Um. It's almost like somebody in a comment on the forum said like karma got them immediately.
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: Like, if they did do it, like karma got them immediately 'cause they were killed within two weeks.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so, you know. If they did know anything about Susan's whereabouts, they most likely took it to their graves, um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Which would have just been so frustrating.
Em Schulz: So my first thought too was someone cut the breaks, or like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a very weird coincidence. You know?
Em Schulz: Hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: No way to really know, but apparently according to the... I don't know, paperwork, it was just a cut and dry accident. But who knows?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So the Wolffs describe the official investigation as a very frustrating experience, um which I would say is putting it mildly. And many, including myself, say it was downright botched. Um unfortunately, we don't have many details regarding the investigation because, fun fact, all the investigation documents, transcripts and the original prosecutor's file were somehow lost after a couple of years. They just vanished.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then that happened again. So they've lost...
Em Schulz: That's very interesting, just vanishing.
Christine Schiefer: Just peacing on out, and nobody seems to know where they are. So basically the information is... It hadn't been digitized obviously, this was back in the '80s, so it's just lost to time, which is infuriating.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Allen maintained his innocence, of course. Um. He said he was certain Susan was alive somewhere, and he said he expected her to knock on his door one day and he'd just ask her where she'd been. And her parents were like, "Yeah, that'd be fucking nice, but... "
Em Schulz: I don't know many times that that's happened ever. But um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Likely story.
Em Schulz: Okay. But why would she even go to him? She's, they're divorcing.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Yeah, back off.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Weird. So Allen was eventually granted his divorce and custody of Damon, this was a year after Susan vanished.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Um. Despite the Wolffs' efforts to seek grandparents custody rights, I think that's a pretty difficult thing to pull off, unless you have like very, very strong...
Em Schulz: Evidence.
Christine Schiefer: Reasoning. Yeah. Or evidence. So he got custody and within five months he was remarried. And in 2003, now this was 21 years after Susan was last seen, he also died in a car accident.
Em Schulz: What the hell is going on?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It's weird, right?
Em Schulz: Okay, so...
Christine Schiefer: I find it weird. Everyone's just like, "Yup." I'm like, it seems bizarre to me, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Um, if he was involved in whatever happened to Susan, of course now that door is closed. And police had not taken the time to really thoroughly investigate him, so too late now, he's dead.
Em Schulz: Wild. Wild that they could never... Or that they never looked into the person she was having a custody battle with.
Christine Schiefer: Hello? Like...
Em Schulz: Best friend was like a suspect, or the car.
Christine Schiefer: Drove a blue car.
Em Schulz: I don't... I mean... Botched. You said "botched" earlier. That's a great word because like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: How did you miss this? Or how do you just not care enough? And also like it's always...
Christine Schiefer: How do you not care? It seems careless.
Em Schulz: The... Like, what's the knee-jerk thought? It's always it's the ex. It's the ex.
Christine Schiefer: The husband did it. Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Or the husband did it, the spouse did it. So how would you not even start there? Ugh. Whatever.
Christine Schiefer: You'd think so. And it's just really frustrating. There have been theories floated around that maybe Allen had like an in with the cops and maybe, or whoever did it maybe had an in with the cops and kept it on the DL.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: There was also... I think it's also just frustrating because of the way they treated the family, like her parents.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So infuriating to listen to and read about. The way that they just were so dismissive and didn't give them any information. Like they were doing all the legwork, but the police just didn't even, you know, lift a finger.
Em Schulz: Well, you said earlier that the dad got permission to drive the car home. It's like they didn't even look into the car or they didn't even... I mean, like...
Christine Schiefer: And they could have examined the blue car that the cousins drove.
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: That Rick drove. But uh two weeks later it was totaled. So they had those two weeks to take a peek, to interview the cousin or friend.
Em Schulz: Did they ever make a statement about like why they just didn't give a shit? Or like...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. No. Not really, not really. There's not much reasoning to be heard. And for a while, the parents, uh Judy and Jim were taking note or having their friends call any time they saw a blue, a rusty blue older car that fit the description...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they were writing down the license plates. And apparently they called police and told them and they were like, "Oh, we don't keep track of any of that." And they were like, "We've been... " Like they just were doing all this work...
Em Schulz: Shocking.
Christine Schiefer: And then the police would just kind of put a block up like, "No, that's not gonna... No, we're not doing that."
Christine Schiefer: And so...
Em Schulz: Like just say you don't care. Like just say it.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Exactly.
Em Schulz: You have no reason to not do your job.
Christine Schiefer: It's pretty obvious. I mean, it's just infuriating. I'm not, you know, probably doing it justice, how much shit parents got. Like just total... A word I heard in one podcast was uh...
Em Schulz: Did you hear? What?
Christine Schiefer: Christine, what's the word? I'm having a brain fog moment again, but my mom brain fog. Um... Oh, uh, Murphy's Law. Sorry about that.
Em Schulz: Oh. Murphy's Law.
Christine Schiefer: Murphy's Law, where it was like everything that can go wrong, will. And it did, in this case. It was almost like comical if there were anything funny about it, but unfortunately you know, there's obviously...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's actually just sad Murphy's Law.
Christine Schiefer: It's actually just, yeah, horrible.
Em Schulz: But it's true. I mean, I have yet to hear you talk about one way that it was properly investigated, so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.
Em Schulz: Or investigated at all, not even properly. Like they just didn't even give a shit.
Christine Schiefer: At all. Not even a first step. And so if you do wanna hear more, Trace Evidence Podcast did a really good thorough covering of the case, that's where I heard the Murphy's Law comment and I fully agree. Um, and he goes over in much finer detail, like the minutia of the, quote unquote, "investigation", all that. So if you are interested, you can... I watched on YouTube, but you can also listen to that. So anyway, this is all just a big mess, as you can imagine, and Allen then also dies in a car accident. And now that door is closed as well.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So although Susan's case isn't as well known or as widespread as others, it has compelled people for 41 years because it's just so jarring, like she just vanished. And so in 2006, users created a thread on websleuths.com to try and share information and theories. It's sort of like a forum where you could chat back and forth with other people.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And one user shared in an article about the Cold Case Unit of the Kentucky Society of Professional Investigators, and the article came from Kentucky Post and featured a team of private investigators who were dedicated to taking on cold cases that were at least 20 years old. And they had read about the Wolff story, and even though it wasn't in Kentucky, and it was actually like not even in Cincinnati, it was farther north, they were so compelled by, apparently it was the photo of the parents on the um, on one of the articles that compelled them to decide that the Wolff's case was their first case, the first cold case they were gonna look into.
Em Schulz: Oh wow, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they pursued every lead they could, they were in contact with the Wolffs. They said they will not be charging them a single dime for their help, 'cause they've already spent so much money on private investigators, on travel...
Em Schulz: Thank God. At least someone's being nice to them.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's about time. So unfortunately, the link to the original article is defunct and like we can't find any, like Saoirse and I both looked, like you cannot find any more information really.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: I was even on the Wayback Machine trying to dig around, there's just not much about it online, unfortunately. Still, people continue to update the thread, and actually the latest post was Thursday as these notes were getting done, [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Somebody actually commented during that time. Um. And so people are still, you know, trying to get to the bottom of it. So I'm really hoping. It feels like such a... Such an unlikely scenario, but I really hope that something, some hint comes forward. And people say like, "Oh well, it died with Allen if he did know anything," but maybe not. Maybe he said something to somebody and...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he let it slip at one point when he had too many drinks. Or maybe... Who knows? But I feel like there has to be somebody out there who might have a clue or a guess.
Em Schulz: They couldn't even like, they couldn't even get a warrant and like black light his clothes for blood or something? Like I don't... I feel like there's a... I mean, she's clearly alive if she ran off the bus, right? But like, was that even her?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't know, but probably not, you know? Probably not.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: There were so many sightings. And even though that one was like a compelling one...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't necessarily prove anything. And maybe the person on the bus just had an uncanny resemblance to her, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, and it just happened to be at Rick's car... It's all so weird. And like, man they cou... Man, I don't know. Like, was there any... I don't know, I'm trying to like Olivia Benson this and be like, what sideways could they have taken?
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: But they could have taken any way and it would have been better, so.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. And the saddest part is this year it's been 41 years since her disappearance.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And think about how old that makes her son. He's in his 40s now.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, poor guy.
Christine Schiefer: So it's just crazy. So in March of 2022, uh 40 years since they last saw their daughter, Judy told The Times reporter, "We still think there's a good possibility that she may be alive somewhere. Now, that doesn't make sense, but it does to me because I don't know what's going to happen. I had a time there when it first happened that I thought I can't keep doing this, I can't keep praying, because it's not helping, but that didn't last very long."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: But they did eventually see closure a few years ago. In late 2014, they decided to begin proceedings to declare Susan legally deceased, and Damon, who was 34 at the time, did not attend. The court granted their request and the Wolffs were able to hold an official service and erect a gravestone for Susan, and the gravestone has her name and then the two names next to are her mom and dad, so for when they pass.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's always horrible to see like parents still living on the gravestone, on the child gone.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's just a horrible sight. So they held a celebration of life service for Susan on June 6th, which was an important day for them because it was the day that she had been confirmed into her Lutheran Church in 1976, and as a teenager, and that was just a really special day for her and a special day for the whole family, so they decided to do it that day. And they published an obituary which spoke of Susan's brothers, aunts and uncles who miss her, as well as her nieces and nephews that she never got the chance to meet. And the obituary ended with Susan's favorite Bible verse, which she and her mother picked out together years ago for her confirmation on that day.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. The Bible quote is, "For everything, there is a season and a time for every matter under Heaven." So today, they will still hope that they one day find the ultimate closure and have some truth, but uh for the time being, they are just trying to live one day at a time, they're in their 80s now. Um. So, you know, we can only hope that some information comes through that gives them some answers before they pass, but um...
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: I like to think that at least when they pass, they'll be reunited. But...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: That is the story. I'm gonna give you a quick... I took a screenshot of her stats, like just in case if anyone has any information.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So let's see. Susan Wolff Cappel was 19 years old when she went missing. She was only 19. Think about that. Sorry, that took me by surprise. Again, 'cause...
Em Schulz: Oh God. In my mind, she was like our age.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know. I know. So, so many of the photos that are posted are like age progressions of her, so I forget how young she was when she actually passed.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or disappeared, I'm sorry. Susan Wolff Cappel was 19 years old when she went missing in 1982. She has brown eyes and brown hair, and at the time of her disappearance, she was 5.4 inches tall and weighed 107 pounds. She was last scene wearing a white and brown striped turtle neck sweater brown corduroy jeans, a red IGA smock and reddish brown Oxfords. Her upper left front tooth was discolored and she has a scar on the upper right side of her lip. She had previously fractured her nose in a car accident. If you have any information about Susan, and you um can call the Sheriff's Office, the Tuscarawas County Sheriff's Office, or the Newcomerstown Police Department. But I have heard also that the family likes to receive the tips themselves...
Em Schulz: Mmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So that they can follow up.
Em Schulz: Honestly, you... you have better luck with telling the family, it sounds like.
Christine Schiefer: Right, it seems like they have good reason for that, so I would go that route instead and maybe research how to get in touch with them if you have any information. And, you know, anything's worth sharing. As I always say, like you never know what might help.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And actually, the woman who worked with her at IGA actually ended up doing a hypnosis to try and recall any more details about the car...
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: The blue car, and nothing came up during the hypnosis either, so. The family's worked with psychics, I mean they've tried so much and spent so much money trying to get to the bottom of it and have had zero answers. It must be...
Em Schulz: Imagine their anger with the police.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Heartbreaking.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine.
Christine Schiefer: Infuriating. So that's the story.
Em Schulz: And that's why we drink. [chuckle] So...
Christine Schiefer: That's why we drink. Indeed, Em.
Em Schulz: Geez. Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's really sad.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I thought you said that that story um, didn't have a lot of information, but it sounded like it did. I mean it should have more, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Well, yeah, I was talking to Saoirse about it, and it was sort of like all the legal stuff has vanished, like all the prosecutor information, all the police files, they got lost. So like we don't have any official paperwork about it, you know? There were articles and the family has talked a lot, but there's just a lack of official documentation on it. Um. So it's just a bummer.
Em Schulz: Well, good storytelling anyway, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you, Em.
Em Schulz: You and your tank top and your broad shoulders apparently.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You all did a good job.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh la la. Thank you so much. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: What are you doing for the rest of the day?
Christine Schiefer: Great question. Probably just continuing to clean and clean and prep for the partay.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, what do you have left?
Christine Schiefer: What are you doing?
Em Schulz: I also am cleaning.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: What's your... What's like the big overwhelming thing that you're trying to get done before your party?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, just cleaning. Like my mom came over and was like, "Look at the couch," and it has this like giant stain all over it. And I'm like, "That's so gross." So now I'm trying to figure out how to clean the fucking upholstery on the couch. Just stupid shit like that. Um. Oh, I wanted to say though, I actually um, have a quick little shoutout. Because when we were on tour... Or no, I'm sorry. It was Beach Too Sandy was on tour, but we got a set of cookies from someone called The Kitchen Witch. And I remember thinking like, "Oh my God, what an amazing user name and company name." And so I reached out to them because I just thought they did such a good job with the cookies, and I said, "Would you be willing to make cookies for Leona's party?"
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, she wrote to me today and said, "I'm shipping them today, and here's a little sneak peek." And they have like little...
Em Schulz: Oh, all the fruits and foods. Oh, that's so amazing.
Christine Schiefer: And have like little holes in them. I'm so excited!
Em Schulz: Aw, like the little caterpillar.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I'm so excited about it. So I just wanted to give her a shoutout. Um, she's at, I think the user name or the account is uh, Kitchen Witch or @kitchenwitch. I will make sure we post. Oh, Kitchen Witch Cookie Co. And um, I swear to God, like one of the most impressive like hand-designed cookies I've ever seen in my life, so I just wanna give her a shoutout. Um, yeah.
Em Schulz: The little holes in the cookie, like the caterpillar got through on this...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that so cute? [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It's precious. Did you ever get all your items back?
Christine Schiefer: I did. They came already, Em. And I was cracking up, I told my mom, I was like, "Okay, watch this and pretend like I just stole this off someone's porch and I'm looking to make money off it." The first thing I pull out is a 3.5 ft. Cardboard caterpillar.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like this idiot is gonna be so mad when he gets like a bunch of little felt apples and a 4 ft. Caterpillar. He's gonna not know what to do. So I did get it all back. Thank you for asking.
Em Schulz: I definitely want pictures. I wanna see what this uh... I wanna see what the setup looks like.
Christine Schiefer: I will take pictures for sure, and we can post them and I'll tag, uh... I'll tag Kitchen Witch.
Em Schulz: What's she gonna wear at her party?
Christine Schiefer: Em, I don't know. I'm kind of freaking out about that. 'Cause I was gonna make a shirt, like with my Cricut machine, but I'm just running out of time.
Em Schulz: Is there like a caterpillar outfit you can just get online for her to wear?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe. They have some on Etsy, but they probably won't come on time. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I mean, she is the Hungry Caterpillar, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, she is the Hungry Caterpillar indeed. Very, very hungry.
Em Schulz: It would be very, very sweet. I don't know, I don't know. It'll... It'd be cool if you've got her a whole little caterpillar tail and it just wagged behind her all day.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And just a little antenna.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I hope you have fun. I'm sorry I can't be there.
Christine Schiefer: I know. We'll miss you. And the food. Well, there'll be so much food, Em. That'll miss you too.
Em Schulz: Everyone else will finally have a chance to eat something at your house 'cause I'm not there to stop it, so.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. [chuckle] Not a chance.
Em Schulz: Well, And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.