Christine Schiefer: Hello.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: My little muffin.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: How are you doing?
Em Schulz: Stud muffin? No? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you said step muffin. I was like, sorry, you don't want to be blood related to me? Hello, my little step-stud muffin.
Em Schulz: I'll be your little biological muffin. Ah, yummy.
How am I feeling? Fine. How are you feeling?
Christine Schiefer: I'm sleepy. I went to a bachelorette party this weekend.
Em Schulz: Oh, who's?
Christine Schiefer: My friend, Liz, who is my brother's high school friend, and then I moved nearby her in Kentucky and we became close. And so I went down with Dee, my brother's girlfriend, and we went to Red River Gorge and had this beautiful cabin and it was really fun.
Em Schulz: I was going to say, you look very tan. Was that a product of that?
Christine Schiefer: No, that was a product of-
Em Schulz: A bottle?
Christine Schiefer: A bottle I found from Australia on Amazon, but thank you for noticing.
Em Schulz: You're welcome.
Christine Schiefer: There's a hot tub and stuff, so I was like, I guess I should look a little tan.
Em Schulz: It worked. You look like you're sun kissed, perfectly sun kissed.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. I did go hiking one day and oh boy.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: How was it?
Christine Schiefer: It was a lot. It was a lot. It wasn't even that long or that strenuous. At the top, there was this natural bridge and it's this big platform with basically plummeting cliffs on both sides. And so of course, I always think I don't have a fear of heights until I'm on a height, and then I'm like, oh, I'm fearful right now.
Em Schulz: I think everyone has-
Christine Schiefer: Fear of heights.
Em Schulz: I think everyone has a fear of heights, but everyone has a different height-
Christine Schiefer: Threshold. Oh yeah. Well, it wasn't even me, it wasn't me being near the edge, it was like anytime someone walked toward the edge, I would stop breathing and be like, "You need to get away from that right now, because if I watch you die, you're going to ruin my whole day."
Em Schulz: See, I'm not worried about... I thought I wasn't afraid of heights, and then I did a hot air balloon and I was like, oh shit, I'm afraid of heights. That was a bad place to find out you're scared of them.
Christine Schiefer: I said that and someone was like, "Didn't you go skydiving?" I was like, "Yeah, I vomited all over the floor afterwards."
Em Schulz: Did you go skydiving? Do I know this about you?
Christine Schiefer: I did. I don't know, there's a video on YouTube. Please don't find it. A bunch of people have found it, so you'll probably find it, but there's a video on YouTube.
Em Schulz: What? How did you even get yourself into that plane knowing what was going to happen?
Christine Schiefer: That's a great question. As you know well about me now, I'm extremely good at dissociating, so I just kind of said, "Hey-"
Em Schulz: I can imagine your YouTube video as you just a thousand yards stare, just totally dissociating in the sky.
Christine Schiefer: It was, but I knew there was a camera. This is the most me bullshit ever. They were filming it, so I was being funny and joking. But looking back, I'm like, I don't remember a second of that. I think that's what I do on stage at shows. I just leave my body and say, "Good luck. I hope you can figure this out yourself." And then my soul-
Em Schulz: At least there you can drink wine.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly true. Yeah, I was not allowed. I was not given any wine. Although on the natural bridge, I did have a High Noon in my backpack, so I did pull that out to Kind of comfort myself.
But it was like, then there were people with their kids who were wandering toward the edge, and I was like, I am seriously going to have a panic attack if any of these kids get too close to the edge. I can't abide by this.
But anyway, it was a delightful weekend and I had wonderful fun, and I'm happy to be back here with you, Em. Happy Monday.
Em Schulz: Happy Monday. I'm having a bit of, I don't know if there's such a thing as a flare up for anxiety, but-
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, sure.
Em Schulz: Is there? Is there anything?
Christine Schiefer: I think so. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm going through it right now. This is the third day in a row where I am having some trouble breathing. Then I'm having anxiety on top of that being like, this better end before I have to go on tour.
Christine Schiefer: Hang on, maybe you knew I was on that bridge and you were like, Oh no. Oh no.
Em Schulz: I still haven't spiritually recovered.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe my soul visited you and was like, my body's on a bridge over there and she's going to fall off a cliff. And you're like, Oh fuck.
Em Schulz: Maybe I did fall and my soul is still free falling, and that's why I'm feeling so jittery.
Christine Schiefer: Wee.
Em Schulz: But no, my body is not allowing me to relax for five seconds. So I'm a little panicky for fully no reason, for no reason.
Christine Schiefer: I mean we always have a reason. We always have a reason.
Em Schulz: I can't think of one.
Christine Schiefer: We're going back on tour. We're supposed to be doing a lot of projects.
Em Schulz: I know we're supposed to be, but that's who we are. Maybe that's what's happening. I'm settling into the fear of-
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, your body's like, We're back to our normal routine, our normal bullshit.
Em Schulz: Oh, well anyway, I'm hoping that it'll go away in time to see you and be on stage because that's just a total fear tactic of mine. Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: If not, our souls can leave our husks behind together and-
Em Schulz: There you go.
Christine Schiefer: Fly away into the sunset, holding hands. And Eva will say, "Come back." And we'll say, "No, we can't hear you. Sorry. We're going through a tunnel. Bye."
Em Schulz: Well, I will say before I had this flare, it really should've come, I'm not surprised that it's happened, but for the last week, I forced myself to go on a vacation because I was supposed to be on vacation anyway. And so since I ended up staying here, I was like, I'm just going to veg the fuck out and actually breathe. Because I feel like I haven't breathed in a long time, and-
Christine Schiefer: The week is all about me. I'm going to breathe some oxygen.
Em Schulz: That's how sad my life's become where I'm like, I'm going to treat myself with a gust of oxygen.
So I made myself not think about anything. And I know in hindsight, I'll regret that, but-
Christine Schiefer: No, you probably needed it.
Em Schulz: I did need it. And so it's interesting that as soon as I let myself get back into work mode, I started having the worst panic attacks I've had in a very long time.
Christine Schiefer: That's probably why. Your body was like, oh, we're back to this bullshit.
Em Schulz: Probably.
Christine Schiefer: We had such a nice little reset.
Em Schulz: It was so lovely. I've already missed that time, but it was very worth it.
If you asked me how I was like 72 hours ago, I would say, I'm having the best time. So comme ci comme ça.
Christine Schiefer: That's what we say, que sera sera. All those other foreign languages.
Em Schulz: Well, Christine, I have a maybe UFO story for you today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh man.
Em Schulz: This is the abductions of Brian Scott, and this is, I'm pretty, I'm going to tell you that it's bananagrams, but I didn't actually really even deep dive into some of it, and I'm just going to warn people now on that, because I found whatever I could in general internet sources, but apparently there are books that have come out about this that go really in depth on some of the details. And I am telling you now, I did not read those.
Christine Schiefer: What if that was your vacation last week? You just read a bunch of really long books. It's like the world's worst vacation for Em Schulz.
Em Schulz: Well, I'll also say these abductions specifically that I'm going to talk about, or this case, the story is a little too wild that I don't know if I would've been able to fully break it down properly. Especially because I was in my treat yourself moment, I was like, I know I'm not going to do this justice, so I'm just going to keep it simple.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I think probably for most of us, it's the first time we're hearing of it. So I think an overview is fine. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And if anyone's like, I really want to know the in and out-
Em Schulz: I have the book.
Christine Schiefer: They can get the books. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I have the shout out for that.
Christine Schiefer: It's nearly impossible for us to touch on an entire several book series in one episode.
Em Schulz: Especially when they're things like, they're apparently about the alien world. It would feel like I was explaining QAnon again. And that-
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that was my first thought. I was like, that was quite a doozy.
Em Schulz: It took a toll.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. On all of us, to be honest. You mostly, but also us.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So anyway, if you want more information, I will shout out the book at the end. But this is what you can find with a simple Google search and not going any further than that. This is-
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: And by simple Google search, I did do several hours to be clear. But if you were to Google it, this is what you'll find. So what's interesting about this case, and this is what drew my little peepers to it, is that this seems to be a UFO case that based on whatever researcher was studying the case, they came at it from very different lenses. I don't know if this is normal in the paranormal world or in the UFO world, and I just am unaware of this, but this case in particular seemed to announce itself as whoever was studying it, could see it as either aliens or a poltergeist or any sort of supernatural thing. It's almost like an overlap of all the worlds.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: There was one quote that said that this case marries together elements of UFOs, alien contact, poltergeist phenomena, spiritual possession, and everything in between. And I was-
Christine Schiefer: Everything in between.
Em Schulz: Everything. Runs the gamut full.
Christine Schiefer: No big deal.
Em Schulz: So I was like, oh shit. I don't think we've ever had a case where ghosts collab with aliens ya know, so.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so, which is wild, but exciting.
Em Schulz: I think that's another reason why I didn't get into the book, because I feel like it was really heavily leaning into one direction versus another, and I wasn't going to be able to do a balance. So anyway, so this is Brian Scott's story, and it starts, depending on the source, either when he was 16 or on his actual 16th birthday.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: So I guess either way, it was his 16th year of life is when we began. The day was October 12th, 1959, and he was walking his dog. This was in Phoenix. The whole story takes place in or around Phoenix. And as he's walking his dog, an orange orb of light, this ball of light about the size of a basketball hovered over his dog. Just appeared out of nowhere and is hovering over his dog's head.
Christine Schiefer: I don't like that.
Em Schulz: I would first think that like someone threw a basketball nearby, and it was about to hit my dog in the head.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, stop throwing things at my dog.
Em Schulz: Yeah, but apparently it just hovered there. The orb was pretty see-through, and it looked like it was more solid in the center and kinda faded away the further out you got. And the ball or orb all of a sudden moved towards him and stops right in front of his face.
Then again, I would think a basketball is about to hit me in the face. I would fucking duck. I'd go, whoa.
Christine Schiefer: I probably wouldn't. I'd be like, what's that? Bam.
Em Schulz: So as Brian looked at it, apparently this flurry of images started running through his head. And as soon as he came to realize that this thing was trying to communicate with him, the orb shot off into the sky not to be seen for a very long time afterwards. But although we really get from that is it was his first real experience with something odd, and he deals with streaks and orbs of light in the future. So this was his first encounter with this, and he knew it was trying to communicate with them, so he knew it was intelligent.
So again, you hear orb, you think ghost, but also images in your head that shoots off into the sky could be an alien.
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: We don't know.
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: The next time, so that was in 1959. We don't see anything again until '71 on Pi Day. So March 14th, 1971, he's hiking in the desert of Arizona. Of course, it's called Superstition Mountains, and he's with his friend Nick. And fun fact, Superstition Mountain sounds like a place I should just cover on its own. It is allegedly an underground military base, which I feel like you're hiding in plain sight at that point if you're going to put a base under Superstition Mountain.
Christine Schiefer: Nothing to see here.
Em Schulz: You might as well have a CIA Area 51 space called QAnon Street, something crazy.
So anyway, Superstition Mountain has an underground base, allegedly. There's also a lot of bizarre deaths that happen there. People have claimed that supernatural voices show up and speak to them, or that there are invisible forces that have either appeared to people or will take over somebody, and it will cause them to attack the people they're with in the group.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: People get abducted there. Apparently, the Reptilians, who I've talked about, they are said to live in the mountains. So great place to go. I feel like if I had ever had a single minuscule alien encounter, I would just never go to a place called Superstition Mountain.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I would just stay inside my home for the rest of my life, I think.
Em Schulz: Not that that would help you, but I would feel safer.
Christine Schiefer: No, certainly not.
Em Schulz: So both allegedly, Nick and Brian, they had this weird urge that day to go head in the direction of those mountains without a real plan to have been there. So already feeling compelled by something to be there.
And while there, Brian looks up into the sky and he sees an oval-shaped glowing UFO with purple lights in the sky, and it is apparently significantly larger than a normal plane.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Brian has a gut feeling to run, which by the way, was not there when a basketball was coming at his face. And this UFO, I guess could, I don't know if it was giving him a sense of doom or it could sense that he had a sense of doom, but all of a sudden, it hovers over him as he's about to run away, and it was so big once it was hovering over them that Brian says he couldn't even see the sky. It covered to the sky, which makes me think it was always the size of the sky and just being cloaked in some way.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: How do you start as something sees over here and then it zooms in that? Or maybe it's really fast.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it doesn't use our transportation. You know the tic-tac where it was going so fast and they were like, our technology can't do that?
Em Schulz: Yeah, good point. So anyway, he looks up again, all of a sudden the sky is not there, which is-
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine a more apocalyptic feeling.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, oh, also on Superstition Mountain, we forgot to mention, but sometimes the sky just goes away. So if you're okay with that, let's go hiking.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine talking to someone like me who already doesn't want to go hiking?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right?
Em Schulz: And they're like, no, no, no. You don't understand. Sometimes the sun is gone. It's like, what?
Christine Schiefer: It's fine. It's really not a big deal.
Em Schulz: So this thing hovers over them. He says his body tells them to run, but where are you going to run if the sky is gone? So all of a sudden, he feels a, quote, "pulsating, pulling, feeling" go through his body and soon he's being lifted off the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Next thing he knows, he is on the UFO.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Surprisingly, Nick is there too, which I can't imagine. Can you just be like, what's up, Nick?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're here.
Em Schulz: Bro, you didn't get away either? And so they're both, I guess, just fucking chilling on this UFO. And all of a sudden, the room begins to fill with fog.
Christine Schiefer: Oh fuck.
Em Schulz: And soon out of the fog walks, quote, "walks in very horrifying creatures."
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And the fog, interestingly, seems to soak back into their bodies. So I'm wondering, did they? Was it a skin fart? Did they fart it out and then they reabsorb it? Or was there a special effects team that they walked in and happened to absorb for the first time?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, did the intern have to turn the fog machine on? Or is it actually part of their...
Em Schulz: Was one of them shouting into the other room like, "Kill the fog, kill the sound machine?"
Christine Schiefer: Kill the fog. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But yeah, interestingly, I don't know how it first appeared if it was originally in their body or not, but it goes into their body. Okay. And these creatures happen to be seven feet tall, a cool seven feet. They have gray reptilian skin, similar to a croc or a rhino. And it, apparently, on top of its scaly skin, has a thick patch of hide over its torso.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Like it's own bulletproof vest?
Em Schulz: I guess. Isn't hide like thick skin or something? Like raw hide?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think hide is on a rhino or something really thick.
Em Schulz: So maybe it's bulletproof. Maybe it's just weapon proof in general.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe it's just a safety thing. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Sometimes I think about where we should have hide on our body, and I think armpits is a great candidate.
Christine Schiefer: Well then how do we sweat?
Em Schulz: That's a good question. I will always live in constant fear someone's about to tickle me even if I'm in a room alone. I'm just always very aware.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, seriously?
Em Schulz: Constantly. Constantly.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Okay you can have your hide transferred to your armpits then in that case.
Em Schulz: I would give anything to have a constant shield for my armpits.
Christine Schiefer: Probably you could make it smell nicer because it wouldn't be sweating and stuff.
Em Schulz: No, it'd be trapped in there.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's true.
Em Schulz: Oh, I don't know. It depends on how the hide is placed on me, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You don't live in the constant anxiety?
Christine Schiefer: No, I don't. I didn't know that you did either to be honest.
Em Schulz: I never announced it because I thought everyone felt that.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I'm thinking like, wow, there's so much I don't know about you. I'm having a little bit of a moment.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's really embarrassing.
Christine Schiefer: It's not embarrassing. It's not embarrassing. I have other weird fears about my Achilles heel and stuff that I'm sure are just me.
Em Schulz: Oh, well, every time you get out of a car, right?
Christine Schiefer: No, not even that.
Em Schulz: Oh, really?
Christine Schiefer: I just saw one time in some show, I don't remember which one, when I was younger, somebody like slicing someone's Achilles heel. And ever since, I have this-
Em Schulz: It was House of Wax, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I've never seen that.
Em Schulz: Well, it happens there too. So don't watch that movie.
Christine Schiefer: I was going to say, it must have happened in multiple movies in our childhood.
Em Schulz: Oh, I always heard about it because my mom was one of those parents who always warned me that someone was going to kill me at any moment. And they were like, someone would always be hiding under my car. And they try to like, when you step out, they cut your Achilles heels so they can-
Christine Schiefer: That's fucked up.
Em Schulz: Well, that was one my mom used to tell me every day before I got in the car.
Christine Schiefer: My dad used to tell me that if I had the duvet cover on backwards, I would choke on the buttons in my sleep and die. So I have a deep-seated fear about my sheets being on straight.
Em Schulz: That's beyond. That's crazier than my armpit situation.
Christine Schiefer: Doesn't everyone have that?
Em Schulz: I really do. Because I sweat a lot. I'm just lucky that I really cake on the deodorant, I guess. I'm always tense into my armpits because I'm just waiting. Maybe it's from my own childhood issues where my dad thought it was hysterical to just poke you in the armpit any opportunity he got.
Christine Schiefer: No, stop tickling.
Em Schulz: And also in the hip, he would always poke you in the hip because the part that gets ya, that tickles.
Christine Schiefer: Ew, no.
Em Schulz: It was a weird gotcha trick that he thought was hilarious in some bad way.
Christine Schiefer: No, tickling can be bad. I don't promote that for kids. It's not good.
Em Schulz: Me either. I don't like it.
Christine Schiefer: Google it, guys. It's not good. But yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's why I have a weird thing about my arm pits because I'm just-
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, what else are you afraid of?
Em Schulz: Okay. Wow. So anyway, we're getting back to the thick patch of hide that I wish I had on-
Christine Schiefer: Your armpits.
Em Schulz: My armpit and my torso, I guess for getting poked there all the time.
Yeah. And then on top of that, these things had three long fingers on each hands that looked like claws.
Christine Schiefer: Nah.
Em Schulz: So forget that. Brian then described these creatures, because I guess he already said it's like a crocodile or a rhino based on the skin. But then it's got this weird hide on it and it has claws. He described it as a combination of earth animals. Which I wonder if the aliens were trying to figure out something that you could relate to and just throw them all together.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. I wonder that all the time about stuff like this where there was one story I heard, I think on Astonishing Legends where as a kid, he saw these aliens as circus monkeys almost. But then as he grew up, they would change what they looked like to make him feel comfortable. Of course it didn't work, because he is like, well, now there are circus monkeys in my room. I'm not happy about that. But it was almost like an attempt to make them relate. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I would be terrified of monkeys for the rest of my life.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Me too.
Em Schulz: Be like, are you a monkey or are you a fucking alien? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What are you juggling? What's happening?
Em Schulz: So Brian described them as a combination of earth animals, and then the beings told Brian and Nick, who's still fucking there, they told them to disrobe. Yikes. And then they were brought to separate rooms.
So we don't know what happened to Nick. And now we just know Brian's story, which is that he was taken into his own room. And in this room there was some technology he was unaware of where the room itself had a supernatural force to it that was able to hold him against the wall while they examined him. And that's as far as we go there. I don't know what type of exam. I don't really need to know.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: But in the room, so basically he's not in control of his body, and there is a pole in the middle of the room with a box on it. It feels kind of like a telephone pole. That's kind of how it's coming across to me. And the box on the pole has a laser beam coming out of it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.
Em Schulz: And the beings that were examining him go over to this control box and they shine the laser onto him. And wherever it's hitting his body, Brian can feel warm and cold fluids flowing through him.
So the laser, he can physically feel it going through him, which is eughh-
Christine Schiefer: Yuck.
Em Schulz: When they eventually shined the light in his eyes, he felt instant pain in his head, and then immediately his mind goes numb. So it was almost like it's a medical procedure of oh, we're going to dilate your eyes, but actually we're going to numb your mind. And after this, a new being walks in. This one is nine feet tall. And he comes over to Brian and touches Brian's head. Brian immediately feels thousands of thoughts and images getting projected into his head just like the orb did. And when Brian says, "What do you want?" It telepathically told him, "I will tell you. I will show you."
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I'd be like, nevermind. Keep it to yourself.
Em Schulz: I just wanted a name. I just wanted a quick word. The alien or creature then said, "There will be no more pain of this." And Brian's head pain goes away. So that's nice.
Christine Schiefer: That's good.
Em Schulz: And the walls of the room all of a sudden transform ala smart house into some sort of 360 hologram. And Brian now sees himself standing in a space where he can see a land of domed cities. So I guess he's seeing the skyline of it, of domed cities and they're all through mist. So he's seeing what I imagine is if you're in a skyscraper and seeing the tippy tops of buildings.
Christine Schiefer: I know everybody's skin farted around, and so there's fog everywhere.
Em Schulz: Could you imagine though if people farted and you could at least see the mist so you knew where to avoid?
Christine Schiefer: No. Biggest fear. Biggest fear unlocked. Besides choking on the buttons of my duvet.
Em Schulz: This is so wild. Sometimes I've thought you know how they say animals can see things you can't? I was like, what if they can see farts?
Christine Schiefer: That might be why Gio leaves the room a lot. And I'm like, "Sorry." He's like, I know what's happening here.
Em Schulz: Well, I would like to be able to see them so I at least knew if I'm getting crop dusted, how far away can I get away without having to deal with this?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's true.
Em Schulz: It'd be useful instead of just guessing if my mouth and nose are safe.
Anyway, I'm so sorry everybody.
Christine Schiefer: Gross.
Em Schulz: It is a thought that happens way too often in my head.
So he's seeing this land of dome cities he's in this hologram room and he is seeing a world that he's unaware of.
And this being says that what you're looking at is a hologram or a projection of our town, our hometown.
Christine Schiefer: Cute.
Em Schulz: And yeah. What do you say? You're like, oh, it's beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: It looks lovely.
Em Schulz: Can I go home now?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He also says that not only is what you're seeing a hologram, but even our identities on board are holograms because-
Christine Schiefer: See, you called it.
Em Schulz: We are disguising ourselves to you.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: This is a quote from Brian that says, "The gray bulk of flesh." Okay. Could have said it any other way, but-
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: Just calling someone a bulk of flesh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "The gray bulk of flesh changed into that", In front of his very eyes, "Changed into that of a beautiful people with long flowing red hair, deep blue eyes, and a golden bronze complexion. I felt a welcome sensation of peacefulness as a voice began speaking within my mind, and it said to me, we are the children of the stars from time beyond all time."
Christine Schiefer: Are they Pleiadians?
Em Schulz: It sounds like it, right? That word doesn't come up in this, but it sounds like that, right?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it does. Except I think Pleiadians have a blonde hair, but...
Em Schulz: Oh, right. Well maybe it was colorblind and it just didn't.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe. Maybe they just went to Walgreens and bought a boxed dye and were like I feel standing out this week.
Em Schulz: They were looking for an Australian bottle of spray that they could throw on themselves before a bachelorette party.
Christine Schiefer: Hey, I've got plenty. Come on.
Em Schulz: They also said that the reason they appear as gray at first and not as some beautiful redhead is because they, quote, "wear the gray cloak of sorrow," which that sounds like depression. Just to be clear.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? I also wear that, by the way. It's not very comfortable.
Em Schulz: "We wear the gray cloak of sorrow in remembrance of our past. Sit with us now as tonight, your journey begins."
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: So it said this, again, projecting a cloak of sorrow. That's how they appear to people. But maybe that hide that we were talking about is involved in this, because they said parts of their form that they're disguising themselves with is a shield against other biological agents, so they don't get sick from other people they're interacting with. And they told Brian that the homeland he had been looking at in his hologram was what their home world used to look like before a virus came through and killed many of their kind.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So that's why they're now wearing the cloak of sorrow to remember their past and now they have a have a shield to protect them from biological agents, so it doesn't happen again. And then the holographic images of their home world disappears, they're back in the normal UFO room. And now Brian has the ability to move around.
Christine Schiefer: I also looked it up what Pleiadians look like and apparently Andromedans have red hair.
Em Schulz: One day I'll do an episode where I just list them all, just give a-
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait.
Em Schulz: ... a directory of Em's Unofficial Guide to-
Christine Schiefer: Em's Very Unofficial Guide-
Em Schulz: The Merriam-Webster-Em definition
Christine Schiefer: ... to Alien Races.
Em Schulz: ... of Every Alien. So anyway, so now they've explained, "Oh, where we come from." And the hologram goes away. He can now move. He's not trapped against this force anymore. And he looks up and the creature is walking out of the room. And I guess he was just done with the conversation. And Brian asks who he is, and this is when the creature turns around, I'm imagining very dramatically.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: And apparently, in different sources, this is the moment where he shows himself as a redhead with blue eyes and more human looking than-
Christine Schiefer: Oh, because the hair has to flip.
Em Schulz: Right. That's what I'm imagining too. It was like a Cinderella spin of sorts. And he says, this creature says, "I lift the veil of projection. I am Voltar."
Christine Schiefer: What? And then he remembers he was playing a video game this whole time, and he accidentally fell asleep and this was all a bad dream. Please tell me that's what happens.
Em Schulz: Which, by the way, Voltar seems like such a fucking reckless little alien to be like, "Oh, we have all these strategies and protocols to make sure we don't get sick, we have all these disguises, I lift the veil of projection simply because you asked my name."
Christine Schiefer: You knew the secret code.
Em Schulz: By the way, I have a picture of Voltar for you.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And I want you to imagine this is the one dramatically turning around and lifting the veil of projection.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I am so amped. Oh my God. I love that in the bottom it almost looks signed, "Voltar," in a handwriting.
Em Schulz: So he looks a little, he's giving Hercules.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, yeah. A little bit with that headband.
Em Schulz: The little headband and red hair. So immediately it's my only-
Christine Schiefer: He's definitely smizing.
Em Schulz: He's truly working it. He's ready for the runway.
Christine Schiefer: He is.
Em Schulz: So anyway, he turns around and says, "I am Voltar." And then continues to dramatically walk out and leave. After Voltar leaves the room, more of the beings come in. I wonder if they are in rhino-crocodile form or if they're in Voltar form. I don't know. But they then grab Brian and they escort him to the exit of the UFO, which I like how they're like, "Your time is done here."
Christine Schiefer: Bye-bye.
Em Schulz: Brian gets there, finds Nick. Who knows what Nick just went through.
Christine Schiefer: Poor Nick.
Em Schulz: And they both get dressed, which they couldn't do that in their own rooms is kinda weird to me. And then they're slowly floated back down to the mountain.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. At least gently.
Em Schulz: Yeah, instead of just yeeted off.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So when they get back to their car, which they could have at least fucking dropped you off at the car.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. You had to walk back. That's kind of rude, I've got to say.
Em Schulz: Can you imagine taking me hiking, I don't even want to fucking be there, then I get abducted-
Christine Schiefer: First of all, I can't imagine taking you hiking. But anyway, go on.
Em Schulz: Then I get abducted and then I have to hike back down?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, nah.
Em Schulz: No, no, no, no, no, no. I've had enough of today.
Christine Schiefer: I've had enough. I've had it up to here.
Em Schulz: So when they get back to the car, they realize that two hours have passed. And this is super weird. As soon as they get home and off the mountain, Brian notices right away that he is very quickly losing the memories of what had just happened to them almost as if they were being erased in real time. Very soon, within the same day, Brian entirely loses the memory and wouldn't regain it until years later when he got hypnotized.
Christine Schiefer: I was going to say, I feel like the only way people end up getting those back is under hypnosis.
Em Schulz: Well, so during hypnosis, he discovers that this was the first event of many where he then is later abducted several other times through 1975.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: After one of these encounters, that's when Brian started experiencing paranormal phenomena in his house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So now we're like, "Okay, is this..." That was obviously an alien situation, and now we've got some ghost stuff?
Christine Schiefer: It's unlocked a new realm or something.
Em Schulz: So I was going to say, it's at the end, but you're already hitting it-
Christine Schiefer: Oops.
Em Schulz: ... that one of the theories is that... A lot of people are coming at this as clearly, assuming this is not mental illness, clearly this is an alien experience, but then all of a sudden, all this weird ghost shit starts happening so are ghosts aliens? Are aliens ghosts? Are they distant relatives of each other? Do people that have alien experiences end up having more paranormal stuff simply because any and all things are attracted to the elevated energy levels near you? So it becomes this whole conversation for investigators on where is the line between supernatural things and how do they work together and do they know of each other?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that is so interesting. And then you wonder, Is it because you've accessed a certain realm that now you just have that open door? Like how when you've talked about people who die on the table and come back, they've unlocked some sort of access.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh yeah.
Em Schulz: Or even people with... What's it? When they can remember things from past lives because they're so young, they're still so close to that side. So it's-
Christine Schiefer: Yes. They're still tethered to that other side. Ooh.
Em Schulz: So that's the whole fascinating part of this case, is that every investigator came at it from a different perspective, and they all had different theories of what it could mean.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that was the first encounter. But now he's having paranormal stuff happen in his house, mainly that he is noticing a lot of random lights through his house. So he is having streaks of light, balls of light, flashes of light that are so bright that they would blind everybody in the house and then just randomly disappear. This is super weird, but I've actually had a blinding ball of light show up and then disappear.
Christine Schiefer: What? What? Tell me.
Em Schulz: It wasn't at my house. It was with my friend Brandy, and it was the weirdest thing in the whole world. It was not my ghost. I think it was the ghost in her house that did not follow me home. That was a fly.
Christine Schiefer: Or is it?
Em Schulz: It's saying, "Shut up. Shut up."
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "I'm here. I'm here."
Em Schulz: So my friend Brandy, she had something that... It didn't show up a lot in her house, but it happened enough that in high school she would talk about it sometimes that she would see this white apparition or this glow that would show up in her house every now and then. And she was telling me about it late one night in her house, and I said something like, "Oh, well, that's got to be good." At the time in my mind, I don't know if this is still true, but I believed at the time and still kind of believe it, that if you're seeing a bright light, you're probably safe. Versus if you see something dark, maybe it's more ominous. But that was, I don't know, the way I went about things at the time. And I was like, "Oh, well, that's probably really good. At least if it's a light glow that you're seeing maybe it wants you to feel safe."
And as I was saying that, I can't explain this. I cannot explain this. And I have talked to Brandy about this multiple times throughout the years to be like, "Did that fucking happen?" But out of nowhere, as I'm explaining it, my hands, I talk with my hands, I remember freezing in time, like time froze. I remember my hands being stuck like this and me looking around. My eyes could move. But I remember seeing my body frozen. What we were watching on TV was frozen. Brandy was frozen. Everything was frozen. I was stuck in time.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: All of a sudden out of in the other room comes this glowing ball of white, a perfect circle of bright white energy floats through her house and floats in between the two of us, and then pulsates and grows until it's covering the entire room.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Fully bright white light. It explodes in front of us, completely gone, and everything went back into working. The TV was on. We were able to move.
Christine Schiefer: Did she see it too?
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I was like, "What the fuck was that?" And she was just like, "I don't know. That was fucking weird."
Christine Schiefer: And had that ever happened before when she saw it or was this the first time it froze time?
Em Schulz: That was the first time. That was the first time. But it was-
Christine Schiefer: That is terrifying.
Em Schulz: As far as I know, it's never happened again. But it was so freaky. It was probably the freakiest thing that's ever happened to me. I never-
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it must feel surreal.
Em Schulz: I still think I had to have been dreaming or something. But it was as I was saying, "Oh, well, maybe if it's a light color, it wants you to know that you are safe and it's nice." And that's when it happened. So I always-
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So I was like, "Okay, well, that's a good thing to show up during."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, did you feel like it was confirming that then?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow. That's amazing.
Em Schulz: But can you imagine if, as I was saying that, a really fucking dark figure froze time? That'd be-
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was like, "You speak of me." Yeah. That is so wild, Em.
Em Schulz: It was bananas. Wow. Tangent time. Sorry about that.
Christine Schiefer: No, that was very relevant.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, so this guy is seeing balls and flashes of light that blind you and then disappear, which I can say I've experienced.
Christine Schiefer: You've been there.
Em Schulz: And there have been a few, apparently there were a few people who ended up reporting also seeing this around him. And there were random items that would show up through his house. There's one quote from an interview where he said, "A rather odd brown shaped thing." That's vague.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "A brown shaped thing has from time to time shown up in the house, it dashes around the room in crazy directions, and every time that it does, it creates some damage to the home. All the electricity and circuits in the house have melted, frozen, and burned up."
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like a flying squirrel got in the chimney, but I guess maybe it was not.
Em Schulz: It sounds like something really obnoxious.
Christine Schiefer: It's just a pest.
Em Schulz: So then, his wife, here's the other weird paranormal thing, his wife starts acting weird.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: She's having fainting spells, she starts mumbling noises and nonsense. He can't understand what she's saying. She apparently starts going into trances where she's acting out of character. In one interview that he had, Brian said that one time she felt like she... either she felt like it, I didn't totally understand, but either she felt like it or was truly convinced that there were hands all over her body and she was being grabbed and assaulted by these hands.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God.
Em Schulz: Going forward or going further he said, "It was as if, from her description, she was describing the aliens I had seen aboard the craft in 1971 had visited her. This is odd, because she has never seen any of the sketches I made of those entities." So I don't know if she was actually seeing them and describing them to him, or if she was feeling herself be examined like he had been.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yuck.
Em Schulz: I don't know which one it is. Later that night, he was looking for her in the house and couldn't find her. And this was after she had already said she didn't feel good. She felt like she was being grabbed, and Brian heard something in the bathroom. So he went to go check and see what was going on. He found her in there, and this is what he had to say. This is kind of a long quote, but it's worth it. "My wife was on the floor hyperventilating. I got her up and onto a chair in the living room. I was on my way to call her mother when she just fell flat on her face. I called the paramedics, and while they were on their way, she got up and fell down again. Then she began to become hysterical. It took four paramedics to hold her down. She was throwing people around as if they were tissue paper. Men were thrown backward against the furniture. Finally, they loaded her up into the ambulance."
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit. That sounds like a freaking possession.
Em Schulz: Possession. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like an exorcism almost.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And as this was happening, all of a sudden he goes to the playpen to make sure that their one-year-old is doing okay. Fucking missing.
Christine Schiefer: No, what?
Em Schulz: They end up finding the baby very quickly on the patio. But this baby was way too young to be able to break out of its own playpen.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And so one of the things that they had been experiencing up until this point was that objects moved by themselves in the home, and now all of a sudden their baby is moving by itself in the home.
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "That's not an object. Stop it, guys."
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's a whole new level.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't count. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But how creepy though objects could move by themselves and now on the night where it's really showing its power, it's literally like, "Oh, and by the way, I can also do this."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, forget it. Forget it.
Em Schulz: Just to further terrify you. In the house, after this night, they kept hearing voices in random rooms that were in random languages, so they didn't even know what it was saying. More objects moved on their own, and they were able to see apparitions, although some say they were aliens because these beings they could see were bald, big-eyed humanoid creatures.
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: Which could be an apparition, could be something coming back to visit you.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like an alien to me.
Em Schulz: And during all of this, Brian decided that he was going to do hypnotic regression. And during this, this is super creepy, he starts speaking in a voice that is not his. It is mechanical, computerized, and I'm assuming very Microsoft Sam-ish.
Christine Schiefer: Terrible.
Em Schulz: This voice, he called the Host.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh! Sorry that really took me by surprise. That's terrible. Oh, that gives me goosecam. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: I guess when the doctor's doing the hypnosis were like, "What's your name?" And they said, "The Host." And Brian was able to channel the host many times after this. So one of the other voices that would speak, this was just one of the voices that spoke through Brian, the other one was named Ashtar, which it's unclear if this was of the UFO world or paranormal, or again could be some sort of mental health issue because-
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: ... I don't know if he was aware of the terminology, but people with DID, dissociative identity disorder, host is a common word used of-
Christine Schiefer: Right, great point. I didn't even put that together.
Em Schulz: So I don't think that's the case, but I do want to mention that's a weird coincidence.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: But so one of the other voices that are coming through is named Ashtar, and this is a quote about the host in Ashtar, "The voice seems to come out of me, an inner voice that is not mine. The entity says that I am one with it. When asked if it has a name, it will just come back and say, 'I am. I am.' The other night we heard the same strange sounds coming from the bedroom. I began to speak in a foreign language that we later found out was Greek. Where that came from, I don't know. I wrote in Greek backwards too."
Christine Schiefer: Ew.
Em Schulz: "On top of that, I was writing with my left hand, and I am right-handed. The voice was talking. We asked who it was, and the name Ashtar came out. Then it began to use the name Ashtar and speak to my wife. It told her things about her past that only she could know. Then it went on to say it would give her all the money in the world, it only wanted one thing in return. Her soul."
Christine Schiefer: Here. Can I say something? Because when you said, "I am," it brought me back to the beautiful, lovely, idyllic days of my Catholic school education.
Em Schulz: Say it because it's what's coming next! Say it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, damn. Okay.
Em Schulz: Say it.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry to-
Em Schulz: No, say it, say it, say it.
Christine Schiefer: ... insert myself. But yeah, "I am," is a identifier for God. It's a name for God in the Old Testament, I think.
Em Schulz: Bingo, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: And the New Testament. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And apparently Ashtar is very similar to Ishtar which is a Babyl-
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: One source said a Babylonian goddess and the other one said it was one of the consorts for one of the demons or something.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, this is getting weird.
Em Schulz: It seemed like there was a lot of different ways to connect it religiously.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, definitely. And also, side note, back to the mental health thing. There are so many instances where people with severe mental health issues connect it to religion. And again, I'm not saying that's what's happening, but it's an interesting parallel at least.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. And there is a note from investigators who have said, this is a quote, "The master Ashtar appears in much of UFO contactee literature. One cannot help noting the ancient origin of the name Ishtar/Ashtar described always as a God of evil and negativity in the Bible. There are instances where those who claim to have been forcefully taken aboard of UFOs describe an interaction with beings who represent themselves as emissaries of Ashtar's grand plan."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, God. That's overwhelming.
Em Schulz: And that's an excerpt out of From Out of the Dragon's Lair. So researchers looked into these voices because they were like, "This guy, what the fuck is he talking about?"
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: "And what character has he conjured up?" So they decided to look at the voices themselves because they always sounded weirdly computerized and mechanical. So they wanted to make sure he wasn't just altering his voice and this was some elaborate hoax. And it was determined that the voices, quote, "Produced an exact 1,000 cycles per second on an oscillography, which should have been impossible for human vocal cords. The voice lacked all harmonics and seemed to be nothing but a series of small ripples and the voice print was different than Brian's," which he claimed would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible to fake. He being the researcher.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Plus each of the voices coming out of Brian were completely different in terms of their own analysis. So all these voices are not him or seemingly not him.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Most of the time though, even though these voices were coming through and talking, it is mentioned often that they weren't really quality conversations. They were just saying really simple things. But it is interesting how often the voices would show up. They just wouldn't really say anything super in depth. But the host in Ashtar would speak through Brian often telling him what was coming or what was expected of him. And Brian was also able to do automatic writings to learn more information about them.
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "I'm writing, but it's in Greek and it's backwards."
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was joking. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So weirdly, these writings would sometimes be in ancient languages-
Christine Schiefer: Oh, come on.
Em Schulz: ... he did not know, or he would draw very advanced scientific diagrams he wouldn't have known how to do. And Brian would then explain that the entities had, quote, "Tasked him with the mission to master quantum displacement physics and begin to develop a mind transference machine to unite all of humanity." What a tall order.
Christine Schiefer: I was going to say. No pressure.
Em Schulz: You had me at quantum, just the word quantum.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't think any of this... No, no, no, no, no.
Em Schulz: So another time the host talked to Brian, it told him that he had to go to Bolivia for further answers. But he apparently, when he came back from Bolivia, he actually came back very different. He had a weird, new, heightened level of intelligence. He was weirdly a lot calmer. He was no longer a chain smoker. His whole behavior was different.
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: And then apparently that did not last because either after this or around this time, he ends up being being abducted again. And we find out that he's being abducted by multiple groups of aliens. So that's a whole other level to this, where it's like apparently he was being abducted by those, the red-headed-
Christine Schiefer: The first group, right.
Em Schulz: The first group, then he was abducted by a group of grays, then he was abducted by a rival group of grays like it's the fucking newsies.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: So now it's like, Well, do all these beings have some... Because if they're trying to get him to create this machine of mind transference to unite all of humanity, do they already have this mind transference thing where they all know about him if one group has abducted him?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Or have they put a beacon on him almost by abducting him and now-
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean? Eughh.
Em Schulz: Why are all these-
Christine Schiefer: It's all so bad.
Em Schulz: Why are all these beings able to find him or why do they all want him so badly? Or do all of these... Is there some sort of United Nations where all of them know he's the one that's going to build this for us and so we're all keeping tabs on him or something?
Christine Schiefer: This is all bad for him.
Em Schulz: Very creepy. At some point during these investigations, or people just researching him and studying him, during this time, every member of Brian's family has at least been hospitalized or experienced one traumatic event. So it's almost like something's saying, "Stay away." And then at some point he meets this guy, Jim Frazier, who wanted to write a book on Brian's case. And I think they became friends over the years and he was like, "Oh, I want to write about you, but I wish I had some more evidence about your story." A different source said that he was actually going to help Brian get to Bolivia, but he wanted more proof first before he embarked on this. But he wanted some sort of proof of Brian actually being abducted by aliens. So eventually he says this out loud of, "I want some evidence." And then at 2:00 AM the next morning, Brian starts speaking in the voice of the host and he says, "Now comes a ball of fire for all of mankind to see." And then literally gives coordinates to look out for. And then within 24 hours later, this massive ball of fire that was reportedly seen by so many people-
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: ... literally showed up in the sky and parts of it landed, the biggest part of the meteor landed in the coordinates that Brian gave.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my... Yeah, be careful asking for proof. You might regret it. It might backfire.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So when Jim and Brian went to go look for this meteorite, they ended up hearing a bunch of weird electronic beeping out on their search together. And when they came back, this led to Brian now having weird telepathy and mind reading powers.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, it never ends for this guy.
Em Schulz: It never ends. In 1976, so about a year later, Brian was abducted again and talked with the host, and this instance was apparently the start to the play of life. This is what the host told him. This is the play of life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: And you're the star, baby.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't remember auditioning for this.
Em Schulz: So this is where I also get confused a lot because it seems like the host is a voice that goes through him that he's talking through, but anytime he's been abducted, it sounds like the host gave him directions of where to go and then he would get abducted. And during these abductions is when he would see Voltar again.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So it seems like Voltar is at the abductions, but when he's alone getting instructions, it's from the host.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: That's how it's coming off. So the host told him, "Oh, this is the play of life." And eventually when he gets abducted again, Voltar shows up and says, "The play of life would end in 40 years," of that date. And the next phase after the play of life, which they don't fucking even tell you what the play of life is, is that... I don't know what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I don't have much patience for people who talk in these kind of riddles and I'm like, "You're making me extremely frustrated and making me feel stupid."
Em Schulz: At this point, Voltar might as well be a troll under a bridge and you have to answer his riddles three to cross.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know. I'm like, "I don't have time for this. There's only 40 years left."
Em Schulz: Well, interesting. There was also a note that 40 years is a biblical generation.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. I didn't even put that together.
Em Schulz: Well, so Voltar says, "Welcome to the play of life. It will end in 40 years." And the next phase after that is the return of the last UFO, which is interesting because didn't Star Wars just come out around this time and the return of the Jedi was a thing?
Christine Schiefer: So listen, I don't know. What year was that, by the way?
Em Schulz: '76.
Christine Schiefer: And it's been 40 years by now.
Em Schulz: It's been 40 years. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I was going to say we're okay, but I guess we're not. So maybe that tells you something.
Em Schulz: We're currently dealing with the return of the last UFO Jedi, I think.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: So they said when at the end of these 40 years and when we're at the return of the last UFO, Brian would be a light to all of mankind.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: That was the last real message he got that I was able to find online. I don't know if there's more in the book, but other than that, there's not much left we can do but speculate. And a lot of UFO enthusiasts and experts have studied his case. One of the main researchers into the story and one of the interviews that I got a lot of my quotes from was from a researcher named Tim Green Beckley, and he was one of the people who came at it from a paranormal perspective. He said that the voices, the entities, the occurrences in the house, they could all be paranormal, supernatural, or both, and all of them could be... The reason they're all happening at once is because they're all attracted, quote, "To the location, due to the extreme vibrations already caused by Scott's ongoing cosmic encounters".
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. So it's like all these encounters are building this... a beacon, almost. Now these other aliens are attracted to him.
Em Schulz: Like it's spiraling.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Some believe that this is evidence that the paranormal and the UFO worlds overlap in some way we don't understand. That maybe aliens gave him the supernatural gifts, in which case are they able to tap into things? There's also the thought that if they're able to see our worlds, can they also see our afterworld, our other worlds? At what point do dimensions of time and space stop overlapping, and how capable are they of seeing these things? Reactions to Brian's case are very mixed. Some people think this is real. Some people think it's a hoax. Some people think this is severe mental illness.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And Jim Frazier, the guy that became his friend through this who was researching him, he wrote the main book that I did see excerpts on, and I thought about including them in these notes. It was called Transformation of a Common Man, the Brian Scott Story. And I say I thought about putting excerpts in, but honestly it was... Now that we've finished, I can say more that the excerpts I saw were basically like reading fucking calculus because it was so in depth with the alien world that he had been researching.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, geez.
Em Schulz: And it talked about the play of life and then things that Brian needed to do when he was having visions of bombs in the world, and if he didn't go to Bolivia, then there was going to be a bomb that exploded somewhere. And it comes off a little too mental illness-y for me at first glance, that I didn't want to totally promote that. I don't know. I didn't read the book. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but the vibe I was getting was... Maybe I'm just so out of the UFO worlds that it just didn't register as fully comprehendible to me. I don't-
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I understand.
Em Schulz: It just seemed like a lot. So I was like, maybe I don't say this stuff, and if you want to read about it, you can.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that makes sense. Out of context, especially with excerpts, it can be hard so.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, that is Brian Scott.
Christine Schiefer: Em, I've never even heard-
Em Schulz: And Nick.
Christine Schiefer: ... And Nick.
Em Schulz: Nick.
Christine Schiefer: He's always the friend, never the abductee. Well, I guess he got abducted too. Oh, Em. Do we know what he's up to now?
Em Schulz: One source said that he was still kicking it. One source said that he is not, so I don't really know what's going on with him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, geez.
Em Schulz: But he survived the Play of Life, I guess, so there's that.
Christine Schiefer: That is so... What year was 40 years? Do you know what-
Em Schulz: It was 2011, so minus 40 would've been '51. Oh, it was saying... He got that prophecy in '56, and he was saying since your first abduction, which was I think in '71.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: So you've been enduring the play of life since you started speaking with us, essentially.
Christine Schiefer: Me too. That's what I say about Em. I'm like, I keep enduring the play of life, AKA talking to Em.
Em Schulz: And that's why you're projected in a cloak of shadows or whatever it is.
Christine Schiefer: That's why I live under the shadow cloak or whatever. It's called seasonal effective disorder in my mind, but whatever. It goes by many names.
Em Schulz: But anyway, I think the thing that really just grabbed me is, I'm sure you could do it with every single alien story I've ever covered, but the fact that they were mentioning at least in this, what are the connections to the paranormal world with the alien world? I've never even really sat down with that before.
Christine Schiefer: It's a big question because it feels divided. It feels like cryptids, aliens and ghosts are all kind of their own thing.
Em Schulz: And it feels like a lot of people will even say like, "Oh, I believe in aliens, but I don't believe in ghosts" or-
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: It's weird that they could all just be of the same world, which in my mind-
Christine Schiefer: Well, with cryptids...
Em Schulz: I believe in both. I don't know about many cryptids I believe in, but they could all be the same thing. I mean, a lot of people think that Mothman is an alien, right? So.
Christine Schiefer: Some people think Sasquatch is real, but aliens are not, or vice versa, or ghosts but not Bigfoot. Listen. On Astonishing Legends, they get made fun of a lot for saying "Everything is connected", but I think it is in its own way.
Em Schulz: I think if you're going to believe in one thing that doesn't have a lot of backing, you can believe in-
Christine Schiefer: You might as well just dive in.
Em Schulz: At least keep an open mind at that point.
Christine Schiefer: I think an open mind is the best way to put it. Yeah. Wow. Em, good story.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: So I have a story for you today. This is the story of Angie Dodge, and I hadn't heard this one before. It has a couple twists and turns, so buckle up, if you will. If don't mind.
Em Schulz: Hang on, hang on, hang on. Ch-ch.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. It sounded like you were loading a gun, but I guess...
Em Schulz: Hang on. Okay. Hang on. *Rewind noise* Rewind. Hang on. Okay, ready? Click.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's better.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm buckled in.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you're just too good at the Foley.
Em Schulz: That's me.
Christine Schiefer: That's you. So Angie Dodge, her family moved to Idaho Falls in 1984, which was a tight-knit, majority Mormon community where everyone kind of seemed to know everyone. And Angie was the youngest of four, and she had three older brothers. And when she was born, her dad was so excited to have a daughter that he skipped into the hospital, which I think is so sweet. According to Angie's mom, Angie came into this world with many talents. She was always busy. She was bubbly, intelligent, responsible, and independent. And a friend described her as wanting everything out of life. But of course, the happiness can't last in my story.
Em Schulz: Never has, never will.
Christine Schiefer: Never has, never will. So on June 13th, 1996, Angie was tragically murdered in her tiny top floor apartment where she had only lived for three weeks.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's pretty dark. So she had moved in after a disagreement with her mom about a house rule, because she had just turned 18, so she and her mom had an argument about living under her roof. So she had moved into this new apartment and was only living there a couple weeks. But the day before she died, she actually went back home to see her mom. And her mom, Carol, said "The night that she came over, I rocked her and I said, 'I'm so glad you're not mad at me anymore.' And she just looked up and said, 'Not even in a blue moon.'"
Em Schulz: Oh, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I know, I'm going to cry. But of course, the next night, several friends had come and gone from her place, and after 12:30 AM nobody heard from Angie again.
On the next morning when Angie didn't show up for work, her coworkers thought it was so out of character for her that they actually left work and drove to her apartment to check on her. They found her door ajar, and they found Angie dead in her bedroom.
Em Schulz: I feel like if you... If I ever saw a door open to a place, just immediate, it's not good.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not going in there. I'm going to get somebody who's more capable to go in there.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm not touching it.
Christine Schiefer: I won't even allow anyone I know to go in there. I'd be like "No, call somebody who is equipped for this kind of thing".
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, police arrived and they found a brutal scene. Angie had been stabbed multiple times and her throat had been cut. The murderer then sexually assaulted her body, leaving behind semen.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And Detective Ken Brown, who was on the scene, remembers, "There was a lot of anger, a lot of humiliation involved in this crime." So horribly... Oh gosh, my heart. A little bit later, Angie's mom called Angie's work to invite her out to lunch.
Em Schulz: Oh, God. She has no idea.
Christine Schiefer: Because she had no idea and police hadn't contacted her yet because it was just a couple hours later. And so one of Angie's coworkers was on the phone and heard her mom say like, "Hey, I was wondering if Angie could come to lunch with me". And the coworker didn't know what to say, so she said, "Angie's been found dead. You need to go to the police station."
Em Schulz: Yeah, what do you say?
Christine Schiefer: I know. Like how do you? Obviously the other person's going to know something is terribly wrong.
Em Schulz: Even if you say, "I think you need to hang up and call the police right now" That's so much worse.
Christine Schiefer: That's almost... Yeah, exactly. Exactly. At that point, you might as well just say "Hey, look, this is what happened".
Em Schulz: That poor coworker is probably like, I just wish I never picked up the fucking phone.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly. Honestly.
Em Schulz: But then when would the mom have found out?
Christine Schiefer: Right, exactly. And someone else would've picked up the phone, so it's just a losing situation. So of course, Carol was in total shock. The whole town was in shock. Idaho Falls averaged zero to one murders per year, so this is... Especially something this brutal was just unheard of. And then especially the fear of knowing that the killer is out there somewhere. Angie's funeral was a crowded event, but afterward, and this is the part that I think about a lot when I watch true crime shows, her mom felt like the world had left her behind. She said, "Everyone went on with their lives except me. I would look outside and say, 'These people, don't they realize my daughter has been killed?" And I know that feeling on a much smaller level of... If I'm going through grief or trauma, and you sort of look around and you're like, does nobody care?
Em Schulz: The world's continuing.
Christine Schiefer: The world goes on and it's like, of course it does, but it just feels like such a personal isolating attack. Like, don't you know how horrible things are falling apart?
Em Schulz: Especially because... And I know all of us either have or will one day have to have that feeling hit us. But to know that it was also a brutal attack on someone you love just feels like a whole additional layer to it of-
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: ... Not only did the world move on and they probably thought "Oh, well, everyone deals with death" or whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Platitude.
Em Schulz: A lack of empathy you could have. But to know on top of it, my experience was particularly gruesome and people still moved on, and it has to be even more of a lonely feeling.
Christine Schiefer: But the part of it too is there's no choice. People have to move on. Your world is just shattered, but people have to go to work and live their lives, and no matter what happens, things just keep on rolling. It's just a really hard thing-
Em Schulz: To swallow.
Christine Schiefer: To swallow, yeah. So police quickly ruled out Angie's closest acquaintances like her boyfriend and the friends that were at her apartment that night, who were all the last ones to see her alive. And the way they did this is that all of them, A, had alibis, but the police had the semen sample, and this was obviously very compelling DNA evidence. And so everyone, boyfriend, any male friends that were there, gave DNA samples to exonerate themselves and to aid the investigation. So all of them were cleared pretty quickly. Investigators kind of ran out of suspects. And Carol began to, of course, just replay over and over the last few days before the murder, trying to think, Is there anything she said to me that could be a clue? And she remembered Angie telling her, "Mom, I did something really stupid", but then kind of shut it down and refused to say anything else, and Carol didn't want to push her and thought, oh, well, it must not be important, and of course now is kicking herself thinking, I wish I had begged for more information.
Christine Schiefer: So Carol also thought maybe Angie had fallen in with a bad crowd, or maybe had gotten in between two people who had a conflict. But either way, Angie spent a lot of summer days hanging out at a place called the Snake River, and this is where most teenagers and young adults were spending their time, especially during the summer. And she had a tight circle of friends there, one of whom police were especially interested in. So this guy's name was Chris Tapp, and he had encountered one of the detectives on the case before, so he kind of had a personal connection with one of the officers. Detective Fuhriman worked at the school that Chris went to growing up, and since Chris had been in trouble a few times for behavioral issues, he kind of already had a relationship with this cop.
Em Schulz: Knew each other well.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Maybe not on the best of terms, but they're aware of one another.
Em Schulz: I understand.
Christine Schiefer: So Angie and his other friends knew Chris had struggled with addiction in the past and they were trying to be kind of his support system. One friend described "He was just so lighthearted, such a dedicated friend. We liked the guy, so we kept him. He needed some good friends to take care of him." So Chris eagerly agreed to help with the investigation along with all of Angie's other friends. They all answered questions. They provided alibis, submitted DNA tests, and like I said, none of them were a match. Carol, Angie's mother, went to the police station every single day, but there was just never any new updates, and it seemed like investigators had hit a dead end. The way Carol described it is "The anger just surged through me, and that's when I just went to the streets and put 60,000 miles on my truck looking for the murderer". So she's sort of vigilante justice now, looking for who this could be.
Em Schulz: Doing whatever she can, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: She decided to take it into her own hands and launched her own investigation. She decided to pursue any information she could find about her daughter's death. She was really struggling to find anything. But then one of Angie's friends was arrested in Nevada for raping a woman at knife point.
Em Schulz: Oh, geez.
Christine Schiefer: And they were like, well, that's a good fucking clue. Ben Hobbs was his name, and he had been so close with Angie, actually, that he carried flowers at her funeral. He was part of the funeral. So now he suddenly became the prime suspect in her killing. While in custody for the Nevada rape, Ben said he would fully cooperate in the murder investigation, and he told detectives "Honest to God, I had nothing to do with the murder of Angie Dodge. I wouldn't kill my friends." Then he asked-
Em Schulz: But you would do some other stuff, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. "I would kill someone else, or I would rape someone else at knife point, but not a friend." Then he asked "Was she raped the night she was killed? Because if she was, my DNA a will prove my innocence right there." And he was right. The DNA at the scene did not match to Ben.
Em Schulz: Huh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: But it was still a very odd similarity that he was so close to Angie and then had been arrested for this other similar crime. Of course with no physical evidence, they needed a confession. So they brought Ben Hobbs, Chris Tapp, and a third friend, Jeremy, in for questioning, and all three men were adamant that they had nothing to do with the murder. And police at this point are like, okay, we're going to separate these guys, these friends, and try to get them to flip on one another. They're thinking that several of these guys were somehow involved since they were all such close friends. So police are trying to get the men to turn on each other. They're offering promises and plea deals, and Jeremy and Ben are just holding their ground and talking back to police like "No, I didn't fucking do this. You can say whatever you want and promise me whatever you want, but I had nothing to do with this." Chris, on the other hand, seemed a little more vulnerable. So he told Detective Fuhriman that he trusted him since he had grown up respecting this man as an authority at school. And so at home when Chris's mom expressed concern about how much this detective was kind of bothering him and questioning him, he told his mom, "He's my friend. He's not going to... Basically, he's not going to do anything bad to me or trick me."
Em Schulz: We've grown up together at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He knows me from childhood. This guy is not going to... Little did he know this cop was convinced that he did it. He was a little too trusting, I guess, in this authority figure. So as I just kind of hinted at, Detective Fuhriman was not actually Chris's friend like Chris thought. He was determined to find Angie's killer and he'd become convinced that Chris and his friends were involved, despite a lack of evidence. And that's when police developed a new theory that Ben and Chris had indeed been involved with Angie's murder, but Jeremy was not. Instead, an unknown third man was there, and that's whose DNA they had.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: They're now basically saying Ben and Chris were involved with the killing, but the person who raped her and that DNA was from a third party we have not yet identified.
Em Schulz: I can't imagine having to investigate a case and you're looking for one person, and then it's fucking three, and you're like, oh my God. It just got so much harder.
Christine Schiefer: You're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is so convoluted.
Em Schulz: It's like, oh my God. You just want everything to be so simple.
Christine Schiefer: Just wrapped up in a nice little bow.
So on February 7th, 1997, Chris was charged with rape and first degree murder with a deadly weapon based solely on a confession. Chris did in fact confess to being an accessory to Angie's murder. He had allegedly held her arms down while another man attacked Angie, and at one point, they passed him the knife, and he cut her just once on the chest. When the case went to trial, Chris's mom remembers thinking, "What in the world have you gotten yourself into, and how in the world am I going to get you out of this mess?" And there was no way of getting out of it. Carol Dodge, this is Angie's mom, didn't understand why they were convicting someone with no physical evidence, but the police just kept telling her, He confessed, Carol. He confessed, what more do you need? He confessed to this crime.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: The judge did acknowledge-
Em Schulz: Did he?
Christine Schiefer: The judge did acknowledge the lack of evidence and said "With no confession, there would not have been a conviction for this crime. And with no evidence and no confession from Ben, Chris was the only one who could be charged with Angie's murder." On March 28th, 1998, Chris was found guilty of the crime. And at the sentencing he pleaded for life in prison instead of the death penalty. He told the judge "My death would be another tragic loss for another family. I am not the monster or animal that everyone thinks I am." So he did indeed get life in prison for the murder and another 20 years for the rape, and so this means he wouldn't be eligible for parole for 30 years.
Em Schulz: Oof, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's a doozy. So when court adjourned and Angie's family passed by Chris' brokenhearted mom, Angie's brother said, "Carol died twice. I hope you're happy you still have your son, because I don't have my sister." So basically salt in the wound to the mom whose son just went away for life.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: After the trial, Carol said "I was finally looking somebody in the eyes who I thought was the devil that had taken my daughter's life". Well, as you kind of already guessed, this story's not quite over because even though Chris was behind bars, one of Angie's killers was still at large, supposedly, since they thought it was a mystery man out there. And Carol was like Listen, fine, we've got this one guy behind bars, but if there really is another killer out there, I want him in jail. I want to find him. So.
Em Schulz: Also, am I missing something? But I feel like if Chris were going to plead for life in prison, I feel like if he had the bargaining chip of "I know the other guy"-
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: ... I feel like he would've just been like "I'll tell you the other guy, if we can get my sentence lowered".
Christine Schiefer: Okay, hold on to that thought.
Em Schulz: Okay. Okay. Hang on. Hang on. Let me check my seatbelt. Ch-ch. Oh yeah. Oh, that sounds like a gun again. Hang on. What's the sound when you get locked and you can't move the seatbelt? Eugh.
Christine Schiefer: It's like-
Em Schulz: That one.
Christine Schiefer: It's like drrrrrrr, click, click. I don't know. I'm clearly not very good at sound effects.
Em Schulz: I'm trying to think. All I hear is me being so frustrated.
Christine Schiefer: It's like... Ckkkk. Yeah, that sound.
Em Schulz: Hang on. Click, click
Christine Schiefer: And it's me going, God dammit.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's just me frustrated.
Christine Schiefer: I'm usually just swearing and going "Ugh".
Em Schulz: All right. Well, I'm still buckled in, so we're good, and I've readjusted.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God. Okay. Airbags are ready just in case. Okay. So. Let me find my spot.
Em Schulz: You giving the mic a little kissy.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Look at you.
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes Moonshine carries this foam part around the house, so I should probably not put my mouth on it.
Em Schulz: Does it smell like cat breath?
Christine Schiefer: No, he just likes to carry stuff around and then put it in his water bowl and drown it.
Em Schulz: That's so foul.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well. So like I said, Angie is now on the hunt for this final mystery person. And so she went to police and requested copies of all the videotapes recorded during Chris Tapp's interrogations. And she's looking at these tapes and she basically wants to watch them and see if there are any clues as to who this person could be that helped Chris commit this crime. Investigators had recorded nearly 100% of the interrogations and they gave Carol all the tapes, and that's when things started to take a weird turn, because in court, the prosecution had chosen select tapes to show the jury which made Chris look guilty without a shadow of a doubt. But when Carol started watching them from start to finish, she got a funny feeling and she began to see a different story playing out. At the beginning of the tapes, Chris was adamant that he knew nothing about Angie's death, but the detectives just refused to accept that, and then they started to feed him information. So Carol was a little confused and she wanted answers. So she decided to reach out to a professional. This was over a decade after Angie's death that she reached out to the famous DNA scientist, Dr. Greg Hampikian, who worked for the Innocence Project. So in a wild twist of fate, Dr. Hampikian had already taken on Chris Tapp's case recently for the Innocence Project, so he was already working on Chris Tapp's case when Angie's mom reached out to him.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Chris Tapp had appealed his conviction several times from prison and was insisting he was innocent, so now Dr. Hampikian and a public defender named John had agreed to represent him. Dr. Hampikian told Carol he was working to free the man convicted for her daughter's murder and she said "I just want to know what happened to my daughter". She's like I'm not, My mission isn't necessarily to keep that guy in jail. I just want the truth of what happened.
Em Schulz: I just want information and closure, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. She told Chris's team to please review these interrogation tapes she had gotten from the police because she felt like something wasn't right. They did, and they were stunned. Detectives subjected Chris to nine interviews and six polygraph tests, adding up to over 40 hours of questioning.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Most of which his lawyer did not attend. His lawyer was not present for most of this questioning.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: He told Detective Fuhriman, who again, he considered a friend and an authority figure that he looked up to and respected and felt safe around, he told him that he trusted him and wished he could help. And Detective Fuhriman started playing what Carol calls the hypothetical game, where they would feed Chris scenarios and try to get him to agree hypothetically.
Em Schulz: Gross. And because his lawyer wasn't there-
Christine Schiefer: There's no... He was just vulnerable in that position. So here is a transcript from that, "game". I'll read both Detective Fuhriman and Chris.
"What if you did, okay, cut her once? Okay. So you cut her once, Chris?" "I know I didn't cut her, okay?"
"So you got a hold of the knife?"
"No."
"He passed the knife off to you, obviously, okay? And it's all right, Chris."
"I didn't take it, okay? Damn".
"So hypothetically, if Chris Tapp was holding onto Angie as she was being cut and some of the other stuff was going on, and Chris Tapp took part of that in any way, shape or form in cutting her okay-"
"But I didn't."
"Would you listen to me?"
Chris: "Sorry".
Detective: "Okay. Hypothetically, I said, if you took part in any of that, that's okay, because you're still here. You're still showing some good faith that you want to cooperate."
So this is how the whole thing went. It was so manipulative-
Em Schulz: It was very bait-y.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it was. They were luring him into this weird hypothetical world where... It was so gaslighting. It was anytime he said "But I wasn't there", and they're like, "I said hypothetically. Are you listening to me?"
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's really gross. And so of course, they're all watching this going, uh-oh, this is not okay. So detectives told Chris in the tapes that they could offer him immunity and that anything he said that incriminated himself would be tossed out as long as he helped bring in Angie's other killers. So remember when you said "Oh, didn't he have a bargaining chip?" Apparently he did and they just fooled him.
Em Schulz: Ugh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: So they were hoping that Jeremy, Chris, and Ben might all implicate each other, but Carol said Ben and Jeremy were much smarter. And Chris, what I realized, because Detective Fuhriman was a school cop, Chris trusted him. He kept saying, "You've got to trust me, Chris. Just trust me." Chris was taught to follow adults, and he was a follower. So he really is just trying to do the right thing and just... Remember that show Making A Murderer?
Em Schulz: Mmm-Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Did you ever watch that?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So I remember that being one of the first... I think it was when I was living in Glendale, and it was one of the first true crime docuseries that became a huge hit. And I remember watching in being mind blown. It was basically about false confessions and how people who might have a lower IQ or-
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think maybe I watched this
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it was so long ago now, it's hard to remember.
Em Schulz: Well, his sister became a lawyer to be able to help him or something.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds right. I don't really remember, but that could very well be.
Em Schulz: Okay. It's been so long, but I do remember that being the first blockbuster hit of a true crime documentary I remember.
Christine Schiefer: And to be honest, I don't remember the outcome of all that, but I clearly remember feeling like, "Oh, it was so obviously him." Who says they did it when they didn't do it? That's ridiculous. And then you watch it and you're like, Oh shit, you can see how somebody could be manipulated and just totally gaslit into confessing something they didn't do. And so I think it really seems like a more common thing than we realize. So basically, that's what she's saying, he just wants to cooperate, he genuinely trusts this guy, this cop. And so he was just used as a pawn and put behind bars.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So the detective started telling Chris details that only the killer should know, like details about how brutal the stabbing was, what Angie was wearing, and where she lived, because Chris didn't know any of those details. So they would ask him, "Where does she live?" And he'd go, "I actually have no idea." But then they would start feeding it to him, and then he would know the information. And imagine, 40 hours go by, and you're like, "Yeah, she lives here." And they're like, "So you do know where she lives?" And it's like, "Well, you told me."
Em Schulz: Oh my God, that's the most ... It's such an abusive, toxic-
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: ... That's so bad.
Christine Schiefer: It is. It is. It's so, so scary. And especially because they have such authority, it's so unsettling. So on camera, detectives ask Chris questions about the killing, and Chris started making vague guesses. He just wants to pass this "test" they're giving him-
Em Schulz: And go home, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. And that's the other thing. That's a good point, Em. I feel like a lot of times in these scenarios, they're saying, "Okay, after this, you can have a soda." Or, "You can go to bed, you can go home," and all you want to do is get out of there.
Em Schulz: Also, isn't there a rule you can only hold someone for so many hours or something?
Christine Schiefer: Mmm-hmm. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So maybe they were just trying to squeeze him-
Christine Schiefer: If they're not arrested for a crime, I think.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So on camera, detectives ask Chris about the killing, and he's making these vague guesses, clearly trying to please them to keep this immunity deal. And when he got every guess wrong from what Angie was wearing to what room she died in, the police would correct him and be like, "You mean she was wearing this?" And he was like, "Yeah, yeah." "You mean she died in this room?" It's just-
Em Schulz: Thank God, Carol, the mom said, "You guys should re-watch this because something feels off." But also, I feel like anyone watching that should have been able to notice some alarms go off of, this is fucking weird.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: But I'm glad she stood up for him and said something.
Christine Schiefer: Especially when she really thought he killed her daughter at first. That must be really hard to 180 and backtrack on that.
Em Schulz: Mmm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So during the polygraph test, Detective Steve Finn would come in between questioning and tell Chris he failed the polygraph so they knew he was lying. They were just making shit up. They were like, "We know you're lying to us. We can tell based on this polygraph." So scared, Chris would change his story again. And then they told Chris, "You have a very strong reaction to the name Angie Dodge." And Chris said, "I'm scared." And the detective said, "I'd be scared too. Murder is murder." Part of me thinks they really just convinced themselves, this is our guy. No ifs, ands, or buts. We're not going to second guess ourselves.
Em Schulz: Or could they have been, I don't know, but I have a general initial distrust with the whole world.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Could they have just been wanting to find someone to lock up so they could be done with it?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think part of it probably is like, we want to solve this case, and we have this guy on the hook, and he's done criminal stuff in the past-
Em Schulz: Or he's a shoe-in.
Christine Schiefer: He is gotten into trouble. Yeah, and I think they just kind of convince themselves, well, this must be our guy, so let's just wrap it up and put him in jail. I don't know the motive or anything, but I don't know. I don't know. I can't really explain it. The detective told Chris the polygraph was picking up on lies because Chris subconsciously remembered being at the crime scene. And on camera, Chris said, "If I was there, I'd remember it, wouldn't I? Wouldn't I remember it? That's my thing. I don't remember it." And the detective said, "There's no doubt in my mind right now. You were in the apartment." And Chris said, "I would remember that. Anyone would." And Steve says, "On the charts, it's saying to me, you were there." Which is the polygraph test. And detective said, "Subconsciously, you remember, but you don't want to, you don't want to admit you remember." And Chris said, "I wasn't there." And they said, "Seeing someone go off like that-" And he said, "I wasn't there." And they said, "would just be horrible." And he said, "I wasn't there." And the detectives say, "I'm not saying you were." I'm like, okay, but you literally are, but okay.
Em Schulz: So clearly you are.
Christine Schiefer: Just the opposite. Yeah. The detectives say, "I'm not saying you were." And Chris says, "You're trying to put me there." And detectives say, "No, I'm not saying you were." It's like, just run around. It's just circling. It's nonsense. So in the end, Chris had been exhausted, coached, and manipulated into finally, reluctantly confessing that he cut Angie once and held her arms down while another man raped and murdered her. Police told Chris if he could give them that man's name, his immunity deal would hold up and he would be exonerated. So in another polygraph test, detectives asked him to name the man. And detectives had previously suggested to Chris that the man was his friend, Jeremy. Chris said he knew they wanted him to name Jeremy. So he just picked that name.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Wow.
Christine Schiefer:
He said it as if asking if it was the right answer. Like, I don't know, Jeremy? Question mark. And police told him the polygraph said he was finally telling the truth, and they praised him like he passed a test.
Em Schulz: Mm. Gross.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So only minutes later, Chris started backtracking on accusing Jeremy, but it was too late. So detectives used this "tip" to get DNA from Jeremy. But guess what, there was no fucking match to the semen. And so they said, "Chris, you told us Jeremy was there. Now we find out you're screwing with us." And he's like, "No, I didn't." Its just so infuriating to read. And I just wish his lawyer had been there.
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, totally. Especially, I mean to say, "I don't know, Jeremy?" And to say, oh, now the ... That's where I'm wondering about, maybe they didn't have any bad motives, but if they were so convinced that they were blind to evidence of saying like, oh, well, the polygraph says that you passed. But it sounds like no matter what they were going to say he passed, even if it clearly didn't pass, they would've excused it.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. I think they just were using that as an excuse to try to get the right answers. Well, I mean the right, the ones they wanted to hear.
Em Schulz: Yeah. The story they'd already decided on, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Precisely. Exactly. Yes.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that lawyer needed to be there. Oof.
Christine Schiefer: It's just too bad. So after all this, after this Jeremy thing, they get the DNA results. It's not Jeremy. They tell Chris his immunity deal was off because he lied to them. And Chris was stunned because now he's backed into a corner where they said, "You're not going to get in trouble for anything you say." And now they say, "Well, you lied to us, so actually you are going to get in trouble for everything you've said." So the police were the ones who suggested Jeremy was present. Chris had only agreed after they convinced him his memory was unreliable and that he couldn't trust himself. And he said, at this point, can I just go back to the beginning, I was never there. I was never involved. But of course, now it's too late because they have all this on tape.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Despite the absolute lack of evidence, they also charged Jeremy with accessory to a felony. The charges were eventually dropped, but Jeremy's name became linked to this murder, and it basically ruined his life. He had to move out of town, and he was only implicated at all because the police were feeding this information to Chris, who then spat it back at them. So even though Jeremy never went to prison for this, it followed him and he had to leave town and try to start fresh somewhere else. So it really just wrecked his life.
So the Innocence Project learned that there was more DNA evidence at the scene that investigators had never tested, and those were pubic hairs.
Em Schulz: Mm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So they had these analyzed and the pubic hairs matched the semen. And Carol said, "When they have DNA not once, but twice, that belongs to the same person and it's not Chris Tapp, the one who's in prison, something is wrong." The DNA scientist said, "Someone went in and committed a typical", I hate that it says typical, but that's what the quote is, "a typical violent rape murder and left typical evidence on the victim that pointed to an identity, an actual single person. They have a perfect profile, but it wasn't Chris." So now fully convinced of Chris's innocence, Carol went public in a Dateline interview in 2012 where she publicly demanded Chris's release.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Now she's like championing for him to get out of prison.
Em Schulz: Good for her though.
Christine Schiefer: It is amazing. It's amazing strength. And she was saying at the courthouse that she was looking into the eyes of the devil who killed her daughter. And now she's like, you know what, I was wrong.
Em Schulz: It's wild how your brain can tell you something, to think you're truly looking at a full-blown demon of a human being, and then to be able to change is-
Christine Schiefer: Then a few years later being like on TV saying, "This man is innocent and his family deserves to have him back home."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's quite a turnaround. So on this Dateline episode, she demanded, "Let him go. It's the only thing his mother has. It's her only child. Let him go." So Carol started working with the public defender that had been assigned to Chris's case, and she also reached out to an expert in false confessions, whose name was Steve Drizin. And Steve said, "I don't get calls from the victim's family members. And I was just so impressed by her. Here she was actually standing up for a new trial for the man who had been convicted for murdering her daughter." So this is just really, she's a strong lady. He said, "When looking at the tapes, that it was", and again, this guy is the expert on false confessions, he said it was "the worst confession he had ever evaluated," and it became-
Em Schulz: Woah.
Christine Schiefer: ... the confession... Yeah. That has got to mean something.
And he said it was a confession that kept him up at night. He said it was a textbook case of psychological coercion. And he said, "This isn't Chris's confession. This is Jared Fuhriman's fantasy of how this crime occurred. And there's no evidence, not only is Chris locked up for a crime he didn't commit, but the man who did kill Angie Dodge is still out there."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like a lose lose because an innocent man's in jail, the one who did it is still roaming free.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody got real justice. It's all just bad. So another nonprofit got involved, and they're called Judges for Justice, and they reviewed the investigation and published reports from polygraph experts and retired FBI agents who all agreed the investigation was flawed. So the report stated they manipulated Mr. Tapp through a series of explicit threats and promises, used false evidence, a host of leading questions, and continually contaminated the interrogation by disclosing non-public details of the crime scene. So they also called for him to be freed.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Chris's friend, Jeremy, had always been angry at Chris for implicating him in the crime, understandably.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But when he finally got to see the interrogation videos for himself in 2016, he actually forgave his friend.
Em Schulz: Oh, wow. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Which I'm sure was also a hard situation to go through. He told Dateline, "They just took it too far. They broke his brain. You can just see him crumbling." It's just so sad.
Em Schulz: That's such a sad imagery of it too.
Christine Schiefer: It is. It is. DNA evidence had vastly improved by now, over the years that this had been going on. So once again, evidence was sent for advanced testing, including touch DNA, which I think is so incredible. It's basically skin cells that are left behind just by touching an item or a doorknob or what have you.
Em Schulz: Ah.
Christine Schiefer: And so this time, DNA matching the semen was everywhere, all over the apartment. The killer had left skin cells and other DNA evidence all over the room. But with that in mind, they also found no DNA evidence to suggest that anyone else was present.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: It looked like there was just one killer. And since it wasn't Chris, well-
Em Schulz: So what was the, um... Why didn't they do touch evidence before?
Christine Schiefer: So it'd been years. And technology had advanced so far that they could do that, but back in the nineties, it just wasn't on the table. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Got it. Got it, got it. Okay. If something happens to me, make sure they do that shit.
Christine Schiefer: The touch evidence?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I will. I will. I'll go on Dateline.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So despite all this new information, Idaho still refused to consider a retrial for Chris. I know, I know. It's infuriating. It's just like all this red tape and stuff makes me crazy because it's in front of everyone's face, but they just don't take that step.
Em Schulz: When it's that obvious too. There have been some, not a good frame of preference, but I've watched a lot of Law and Order SVU, and there have been some episodes where they know the person's innocent and just like still won't let him leave jail. And I'm like, how does that fucking work?
Christine Schiefer: It's a lot of paperwork.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm like, oh my God. The fact that that's real, I just keep hoping that's like a Hollywood-
Christine Schiefer: It's upsetting. Yeah, it's very upsetting.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's just too many hoops to jump through sometimes, or people need to sign off on it, and if one person refuses, then it just doesn't go anywhere, that kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So a former criminal investigator of Idaho was hired to review the entire investigation. And after 14 months and $36,000 in September, 2016, he said the confessions were tainted, questionable, or unlikely. But this still didn't acquit Chris. So the review admitted there was no evidence Chris was present, but he still believed he was somehow present was where they landed. So Carol was outraged, and her response was, "I don't know how he's there, but he's there. You paid $36,000 for someone to say that? Science excludes Chris Tapp." Which I love that. She's like, fucking science says.
Em Schulz: She was like, I'm going to be a shark about this.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Let's be clear here. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Let's be fucking clear here and stop fucking around over there, faffing around.
Em Schulz: And good for her. Why is someone in there on a hunch that nobody else has a hunch on?
Christine Schiefer: Zero people have proof of, and that he's now saying, I wasn't there.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So finally, thank God, a new judge looked over the case, and on March 22nd, 2017, the judge oversaw a re-sentencing. Chris's murder conviction would remain, but the rape conviction was dropped, and he would be able to get out of prison immediately. So Chris's lawyer tried to talk Chris out of it, but Chris, at this point, would do anything to be out of prison, even if it meant legally remaining a convicted murderer. He was like, "I don't care anymore. Just put that on my name and let me out of here."
Em Schulz: Yeah. He's like, whatever it takes.
Christine Schiefer: Which is also not fair. Now you have to live the rest of your life this way. So Carol Dodge took the stand in Chris's defense, and Chris cried as she spoke. And when he was freed, Chris fell into both the arms of his own mother and Carol.
Em Schulz: Awe.
Christine Schiefer: And the three of them held each other and cried.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh, wow. That's rough. That's rough.
Christine Schiefer: Chris's old friend, Jeremy, that he had implicated, walked up and held him too, as they both cried and said, I love you.
Em Schulz: My God. It's like a movie.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I have goosecam. Chris stepped out of the courthouse to applause from the crowd that was waiting outside. He said, "I want to see what life has to offer and prove that I'm worth something." Then he thanked Carol for being his loudest voice. And he said now that his story was over, it was time to find justice for Angie. He said, "I have to honor Angie. I have to stand up for Angie." Detectives continued to insist that they knew Chris Tapp was guilty.
Em Schulz: Are you fucking kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: I know. I know.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Yawn.
Christine Schiefer: Yawn. Old news, get out of here. Go home.
Em Schulz: Find a new story. Take a hike.
Christine Schiefer: Take a fucking hike.
Em Schulz: Take a hike on Superstition Mountain. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: Take a hike to the bridge, the natural bridge on Superstition Mountain.
Em Schulz: Take a hike to Voltar's Riddle Me Three Bridge.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and stay there. So detectives continued to insist he was guilty and that the interrogation tapes would prove it. But in November, 2018, Carol Dodge contacted a famous genetic genealogists named Cece Moore. And Cece Moore used genealogy DNA from databases like ancestry.com to narrow down potential relatives of the murderer. And this is the kind of thing we've all seen with the Golden State Killer, and just being able to link family trees via DNA to find cold case killers, that kind of thing. So they did this, and in the end, police were led to a man named Brian L. Dripps, Sr, who lived across state. But when they looked into it, he, at the time of Angie's murder, had lived across the street from her, and he also happened to have moved away shortly after her death. So investigators matched the crime scene DNA to one of Brian's discarded cigarettes. And pretty much immediately upon bringing him in, he folded and-
Em Schulz: Oh wow.
Christine Schiefer: ... admitted it. He said he had been high on coke that night and really drunk, and he intended to rape Angie, but not murder her. They said he kind of slumps a little bit. He was silent for a couple of minutes, and then he just said, "I did it. I raped her. And apparently I killed her." The case was finally closed. So in June of 2021, Brian was found guilty of Angie's rape and murder and sentenced to life in prison. And at the sentencing, one of Angie's brothers said, "Chris Tapp should be given the opportunity to voice his nightmare to this court. He served and lost 20 years of his life because of Mr. Dripps."
Em Schulz: It's also, I mean, there's no right way for it to have gone, but it's still so infuriating, I'm sure, for Chris, but even for me, someone who's hearing this for the first time, that he went through all of that mental torture, then he went through 20 years of prison when this guy came in and within five minutes didn't-
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: ...need any twisting, didn't need any bending, he was like,-
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yep. Yep.
Em Schulz: ...Oh, yep, it's me. Like, nobody would've... It would've taken five minutes of police work if he just walked in, if they found out first.
Christine Schiefer: To get him. I know. And it's so frustrating because he was never even on anyone's radar because he just moved away and stayed low profile. And understandably, they looked at her friends first because it's like, of course, usually-
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: ...if you're raped and killed, it's by someone you know. So I understand the initial interest in these people, but it's like when the evidence is not lining up and the person's saying they didn't do it, it's worth looking a little broader and considering other avenues. I don't know.
Em Schulz: It just would've would've taken five minutes for a conviction had they just found him first. Which, I get why things happened the way they did and who they were looking for first, but the fact that this guy had to lose-
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: ...so much of his life because this guy just never got found. It really is just so angering that how quickly he folded. You'd think for, oh, you've been in hiding this whole time, you would at least put up a fight or something. Either way it would be bad. There's no good way, but it's just feels worse.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like after those 20 years, he was just waiting for them to figure it out.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if he knew that the other guy got let out. I wonder if he followed it or not. Obviously, I don't know. But because you know as soon as they find my DNA, there's no talking your way out of it. Your semen is there. Explain yourself. So yeah, yeah it is heartbreaking to think about how quickly it could have-
Em Schulz: Been resolved.
Christine Schiefer: ... gone a different direction. Yeah. So Chris has been fully exonerated, thankfully, and he filed a lawsuit against the city of Idaho Falls, and seven former police officers, Detective Fuhriman, who had meanwhile been elected mayor, actually died in 2022 at the age of 60-
Em Schulz: Mayor.
Christine Schiefer: ... following an early onset Alzheimer's diagnosis. So Carol Dodge is credited with solving her daughter's murder because she refused to give up. And quite frankly, if she had never gone and gotten those tapes, he would just probably still be in prison, and nobody would've even found the actual guy. So Carol said she couldn't back down because of, this is. aww I'm gonna cry. I've got this. Carol said she couldn't back down because of that day she hugged Angie after their argument. She said, "If I hadn't had the opportunity to hold Angie in my arms that night and to tell her how much I love her, I don't know that I could have made it. It's what kept me determined to find out why my daughter was killed."
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: So that is the story of Angie Dodge and the false confession.
Em Schulz: Well, there's no happy ending to that story, but at least the happiest version of it could happen that at least he got out.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. At least there was some justice with him, at the very least.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It's a doozy.
Em Schulz: Well, good story. Definitely had the twists and turns. I'll unbuckle now.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you can unbuckle. We're safely parked.
Em Schulz: Click. Rrrr. It was a good one. I do like when there's twists and turns to the story, and I do like when there's whatever version of a happy ending-
Christine Schiefer: Some sort of justice.
Em Schulz: ...possible.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And shout out to the Innocence Project because they really, they do great work.
Em Schulz: Yeah. How did you hear about this one? Was there any-
Christine Schiefer: It was just kind of a ... I hadn't actually heard about it before, and the person who helps us do some of our research was like, "Hey, have you heard of this?" And I was like, "God, no." Every time I see a topic where I'm like, how do I not know that? You know what I mean? But it's just kind of terrible because there's just so many crime stories that it's like, wow. It's just endless stories to cover, which is... I'd give up my job if it meant no more stories to cover.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Unfortunately, I think you're going to have a lifetime of stories.
Christine Schiefer: It's too bad. It really is tragic. So I actually had not heard of it before. They kind of sent it my way, but yeah.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: Pretty crazy.
Em Schulz: Well, I'm glad we got to hang out a little bit. I know it's when we're talking about dark stuff instead of just friend hangouts, but I'm glad we got to see each other. I haven't seen you-
Christine Schiefer: We kind of do that during friend hangouts too, so-
Em Schulz: I haven't seen you in a while though. Last time I saw you, I was covered in spots.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Are you feeling better?
Em Schulz: I have a little scarring, but I think after a couple skin sheds, we'll be good.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay, good.
Em Schulz: So I think it'll... But it's like they're tiny little dots. It adds character. They're like forehead freckles.
Christine Schiefer: They're like freckles.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Little freckles. But other than that, I'm good. Allison, I think maybe caught a minor case of it, but it was nothing compared to what my situation was. But yeah, my hands are the only things that are still healing a little bit. But we're okay, we're in the clear, folks.
Christine Schiefer: Oof. What a week.
Em Schulz: Hey, now, apparently, since I've gotten it and I can never get it again, you've at least helped me out next time I'm near a baby, I don't have to wonder.
Christine Schiefer: By the way, you're welcome.
Em Schulz: Hah! Thank you. Well, I guess I'm going to see you tomorrow or Wednesday, because we're going to be in Florida this week.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm going to see you Wednesday in Florida. I'm so excited. And we're about to also record our After Chat for Patreon, so if you guys want to hear more, you can go to patreon.com/andthatswhywedrink, I think, and that's why we drink. Let me check if that's correct.
Em Schulz: Nope. Wow. Six years, folks.
Christine Schiefer: Cool. Okay. Patreon.com/atwwdpodcast. So check us out. We'll see you there. Otherwise, I guess we're good to go, huh?
Em Schulz: Yeah, And-
Christine Schiefer: That's-
Em Schulz: Why-
Christine Schiefer: We-
Em Schulz: Drink.
